3
25
189
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1510/29039/MNolanJF150621-160517-02.1.jpg
814db4b1aeb54f1b17e0fbec1bc1aa6e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Nolan, Frank
J F Nolan
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-17
Identifier
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Nolan, JF
Description
An account of the resource
Thirty-one items. The collection concerns Frank Nolan who served in the British Army 1939-1941 after which he was released with disability pension. He then trained and served as an inspector for the ministry of aircraft production, aeronautical inspection directorate at aircraft manufacturers. Collection contains correspondence, work inspection work documents, photographs, diaries and objects. Includes a sub collection work folder with 28 further items consisting correspondence and inspection reports.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by JE Nolan and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted] 21st. June [/inserted]
Born 1915.
St Johns – 1919 – 1920
Sacred Heart – 1920 – 1926
St Marys College – Sept 1926 – June 1930
East Lanes Motors – July 1930 – 1936
J. S. Leavers – 1936 – Sept 1939.
Army. [inserted] (3rd.) [/inserted] Sept 1939 – Aug 1941.
Preston Gov: Training Centre Sept 1941 – March 1942
Air Ministry A.I.D. March 1942
Liverpool Dist. Office. March 1942 – June 1942
Bristol (A.I.D. College) June 1942 – Aug 1942.
L.M.S. Derby Aug 1942 – Aug 1944.
Vickers Armstrong B’pool Aug 1944 – Aug 1945
A.V. Roe Manchester. Aug 1945 – Oct 1945.
J.S. Leaver. Oct 1945 – [inserted] Aug 1979 [/inserted]
[inserted] DIED: 23RD FEB. 1981
(66 YRS) [/inserted]
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Frank Nolan history
Description
An account of the resource
Dates of main events of life of J F Nolan including birth, education, army service 1939-1941, then Air Ministry AID in various locations including Vickers Armstrong and A V Roe.
Creator
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J F Nolan
Format
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One page handwritten document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MNolanJF150621-160517-02
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
British Army
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lancashire
England--Bristol
England--Derbyshire
England--Derby
England--Blackpool
England--Manchester
England--Gloucestershire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1915
1919
1920
1926
1930
1936
1939
1941
1942
1944
1945
1979
1981-02-23
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1319/31713/PGrundyL1906.1.jpg
1ff99583dc6cb2438c40603aec09986e
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Grundy, Lillian
L Grundy
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. An oral history interview with Lillian Grundy (b. 1923), and documents, including correspondence from a prisoner of war and photographs. She worked in an Avro factory during the war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Lillian Grundy and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-09-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Grundy, L
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
George Grundy with fellow soldier
Description
An account of the resource
George Grundy circa 1939. Two soldiers in uniform including wellington boots and gauntlets, standing in open country, pond and hills in the background. Additional information has been kindly supplied by the donor.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Format
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One b/w photograph.
Language
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eng
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PGrundyL1906
Coverage
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British Army
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1939
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1415/26802/PWarrenGC19020009.jpg
8ed559d7c951b25c8645a8b2bba0bd7d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1415/26802/PWarrenGC19020010.jpg
d0d4da8954c06ce7b31195d423181ed8
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Warren, George
George Clarence Warren
G C Warren
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-08-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Warren, GC
Description
An account of the resource
47 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer George Warren (162041 Royal Air Force) he flew operations as a navigator with 626 Squadron until he was killed <span>16 March 1945 on an operation to Nürnberg. The collection contains his log book, correspondence and photographs.</span><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Harris and Vanessa Hibbert and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on George Warren is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/124450/ ">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
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Permission granted for commercial projects
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Title
A name given to the resource
George Warren
Description
An account of the resource
Two half-length photographs of George.
In photo 1 he is wearing a scarf and a coat, captioned 'George at Borth 1939.'
In photo 2 he is wearing a jacket, shirt and tie.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two b/w photographs
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PWarrenGC19020009,
PWarrenGC19020010
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales--Borth
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1230/15964/MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010001.1.jpg
cc63c95cbcec4eab9fb80ed212b56cef
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1230/15964/MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010002.1.jpg
8534eeee0e86cc18a601e1f2cf8ccfb5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1230/15964/MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010003.1.jpg
ddc2ecd000def02d6c2b8b8e340528f2
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1230/15964/MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010004.1.jpg
6d3c146176acce97fe4658d8a7c447a7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1230/15964/MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010005.1.jpg
8442200ae72d98f35ae1d668890ce446
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1230/15964/MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010006.1.jpg
e3dfdbf08667fa6ba3294217810fc019
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Redgrave, Henry Cecil
H C Redgrave
Description
An account of the resource
187 items. The collection concerns Henry Cecil Redgrave (743047, Royal Air Force) and contains his decorations, letters and photographs. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 207 Squadron from RAF Waddington. He was killed 13/14 March 1941. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Pam Isaac and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br /><span>Additional information on Henry Cecil Redgrave is available via the </span><a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/119457/">IBCC Losses Database</a><span>.</span>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Redgrave, HC
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Harry Redgrave's Driving Licence
Description
An account of the resource
A licence issued to Harry Redgrave
Creator
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Southend-on-Sea Borough Council
Format
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One printed booklet with handwritten yearly licences affixed
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010001,
MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010002,
MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010003,
MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010004,
MRedgraveHC743047-160216-010005
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Essex
England--Southend-on-Sea
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938
1939
1940
1941
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1791/32512/OWierT500238-170122-04.1.jpg
f016109b56437871846a61e3d917bc59
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wier, Tadeusz
T Wier
Tadeusz Wierzbowski
T Wierzbowski
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wier, T
Description
An account of the resource
24 items. The collection concerns Tadeusz Wier (b.1920) and contains his log books, memoirs, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a pilot with 300 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Wier-Wierzbowski and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Tadeusz Wierzbowski grew up on a farm near Zgierz, Poland. He learned to fly at the training school at Deblin and escaped from the Nazi and Russian invasions in 1939. He travelled through Romania to the Black Sea, and was in France when the Nazis invaded. He eventually arrived in Liverpool on the Andura Star in June 1940.
He flew as an instructor, training others to fly for three years, before he was posted into combat with 300 Squadron. He flew 25 operations as a Lancaster pilot from RAF Faldingworth including bombing Hitler’s Eagle’s nest at Berchtesgaden.
Tadeusz was a test pilot after the war and shortened his name to Wier to make it easier for air traffic control officers. Over his career, he flew over 40 different aircraft types from Polish RWD 8 trainers to Vampire jets.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Headquarters Polish Air Force records
Description
An account of the resource
Extract of record for Tadeusz Wierzbowski gives personal and service details. Includes decoration cross of valour.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page form with typewritten entries
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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OWierT500238-170122-04
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938
1939
1941
1944
1946
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
aircrew
pilot
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1908/36250/SPerryWRP1317696v60011.2.pdf
69a5157ce2cca7c1114dc6b69a4a2b27
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1908/36250/SPerryWRP1317696v60001.1.jpg
ec720f97c988c3eac524aae97347bbbd
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Perry, Pete
W R P Perry
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Perry, WRP
Description
An account of the resource
Sixty-nine items and an album sub collection with twenty-four pages of photographs.
The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant WR Pete Perry DFC (1923 - 2006, 1317696, 146323 Royal Air Force) and contains his log books, photographs, correspondence, memoirs and documents. He flew operations as a pilot with 106 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Helen Verity and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[book cover]
[page break]
SHORT HISTORY
--of—
106 SQUADRON
[page break]
[underlined] SHORT HISTORY OF NO. 106 SQUADRON [/underlined]
No. 106 Squadron was formed at Andover in September 1917 and equipped with R.E.8 aircraft, its duties were those of an Army Co-operation Unit. After eight months at Andover, it was moved to Fermoy in Northern Ireland, where it was when the Armistice was signed, and where it remained until its disbandment in October, 1919 – it had by then been re-equipped with Bristol Fighters. Early records of the Squadron are meagre but there is nothing to suggest that the Squadron was ever in the front line and it does not appear to have any claim to distinction.
In June, 1938, the Squadron was reformed at Abingdon and was under the Command of S/Ldr. W.C. Sheen. The original aircraft were Hinds, but Fairey Battles were later introduced and in September, 1938 the Squadron moved to Thornaby where it stayed until after the outbreak of war. By this time the Fairey Battles had been had been superseded by the Handley Page ‘Hampden’ and thus equipped the Squadron, after a short stay at Cottesmore, was moved to Finning in October, 1939.
No. 106 Squadron was not immediately employed as a front line Squadron – it was not employed as such for over a year – but became an advanced training Unit and crew pool for Operational Squadrons of No. 5 Group. Its duties consisted of normal flying training, intensive night flying and an occasional North Sea sweep. Later, its curriculum was extended to include conversion of second pilots to Captains, moving target (Motor Boat) bombing and sundry other training commitments of a miscellaneous character. Owing to the constantly changing personnel – between 90 and 100 aircrew passed through the Squadron every week, making it little more than a clearing house – it was impossible to adopt any consistent policy as the large flow of aircrew for Operational Squadrons belonged to us on paper only.
It was under these circumstances and against an historical background very far from inspiring, that No. 106 Squadron, then under the command of S/Ldr. R.D. Stubbs, DFC., was converted into a semi-operational unit and carried out its first sorties on 9th Sept. 1940. Three aircraft were sent ‘Gardening’ and the event was such as to arouse quite extrardinary [sic] enthusiasm and practically the whole camp – from Station Commander downwards, were present at the take-off. The primary object of this new policy was to provide No. 5 Group Squadrons with fully trained crews who had operational experience. Later, the posting of these experienced crews ceased and the Squadron was gradually built up to full strength with a view to itself being made fully operational. Throughout the winter of 1940-41 under the Command of first W/Cdr. W.J.H. Lindley and then W/Cdr. J.P. Polglaise, mining sorties were carried out regularly – with varying degrees of success and without incidents of special interest.
On 25th, Feb. 1941, the Squadron moved to Coningsby and now almost at full strength, took its place alongside the other 5 Group Squadrons – admittedly the Cinderella in such gallant company and rather jealous of their ‘kudos’ but determined to make its way to the front. It was not long before this had been achieved.
The first bombing raid was made on the 1st. March, 1941 – the target was Cologne. The first event of outstanding importance was on the night of 4 – 5th. April, 1941, when three aircraft made a fifty feet attack on the notorious German Warships which had recently arrived in Brest. In the face of fierce opposition, at least one 1900 lb. bomb scored a near miss on the Gneisenau. The Squadron won its first awards on this attack – Pilot Officer R. Waring winning the D.F.C. and Sergeant R. Purnell with the D.F.M. The price paid for such success as was achieved at the loss of the Squadron Commander, W/Cdr. J.P. Polglaise, who was one of the low-level attackers.
[page break]
Early in May, 1941, the Squadron was taken over by W/Cdr. R.S. Allen, DFC. and a little later was converted into a three flight Squadron. This enabled raids to be carried out with increased strength and throughout the summer we achieved, comparatively, a high standard of success with light losses. The targets on those summer nights were not very varied – they were chiefly in the Ruhr – but attacks were very frequent and on several occasions 20 aircraft were put into the air. Some excellent take-off times were achieved, too, the best being the despatch of fifteen aircraft in 9 minutes.
On 24th. July, 1941, after several weeks of intensive training, formation of six aircraft led a daylight raid on the warships at Brest. The crews claimed to have straddled the Gneisenau despite fierce and accurate opposition – the formation remained unbroken and, although every aircraft was damaged, all returned safely. For this magnificent work, W/Cdr. Allen was awarded the D.S.O. and awards were made to three other members of the crews. Later, the same formation (even the escorting fighter Squadrons admitted that it was good) made a daylight attack on Gosnay in occupied France.
With the coming of the longer nights the targets could be varied and the enemy naval ports received frequent attention, as well as Berlin. The art of sea-mining was not neglected and amongst other operations of that type the most note worthy was the mining of Oslo by 14 aircraft, which were temporarily based at Wick. Several successful ‘sneaker’ raids were made, – these were great favourites amongst the more adventurous spirits – and other attacks which readily come to mind are those on the Huls Rubber Factory in December, 1941, and the smashing of the Renault Factory at Billencourt in March, 1942.
In March 1942, the time came for the Hampden, rapidly becoming obsolete, to be replaced with the latest type of Bomber and the Squadron was re-armed with the A.V. Roe ‘Manchester’ as a transition stage to the final re-equipment with the four engine Lancaster. With the change over from Hampdens, accomplished very creditably in ten days without a single accident, there came a change in Command, the new Squadron Commander being W/Cdr. G.P. Gibson, DFC., who had already completed tour of operations on bombers and one on night fighters.
The Manchesters were operated continuously throughout March, April and May, and despite the aircraft’s many shortcomings, no small measure of success was achieved. Lubeck and Warnemunde were amongst the targets attacked and aircraft were despatched on all four nights of the ‘blitz’ on Rostock. In addition to bombing, the Squadron’s mining activity was considerable – over 200 mines were laid which is a total greater by far than that laid by the Hampdens in 18 months.
The Squadron was in the process of converting to Lancasters at the time of the first ‘thousand raid’ and, in fact, the first sorties with these aircraft were made against Cologne on 30th. May, 1942. 11 of the 16 aircraft despatched on that occasion were Lancasters – none were lost – which was no mean feat considering that the pilots had only an hours experience of them. A few weeks later 17 Lancasters and 2 Manchesters dropped 54 tons of bombs on Bremen, establishing a new record for one nights work.
The size, scope and success of our bombing grew rapidly. Most readily there comes to mind the daylight attack on Danzig in July, 1942, which was followed by several mining sorties in that area and a bombing attack (using the 550 lb. C.S. bomb) on the Graf Zeppelin in Gdynia. On 31st. July, 1942 we set up a new record – 21 of our aircraft dropped 62 tons of bombs on Dusseldorf – the greatest weight ever dropped by a single Squadron. On this raid, too, we carried the first 8,000 lb. bomb.
2.
[page break]
During the fine nights of August and September, 1942, the intensity of our bombing continued unabated. We achieved still more excellent results, both in bombing and mining – specially in the latter when many mines were accurately laid in the Baltic, often under appalling weather conditions. Sometimes we were the only Squadron to operate on these missions and our reward was the frequently expressed appreciation of the Admiralty.
Photography was coming into its own just now and in the number and quality of our pictures we were not lagging – holding a high place in Bomber Command and on two consecutive nights in September we took more photographs than any other Bomber Command Squadron.
At the end of September 1942, we severed, temporarily at least, our connection with Coningsby and were transferred to Syerston. We arrived there with a good reputation and we were not long in living up to it. October, 1942, was a month of spectacular success for No. 5 Group and 106 Squadron was well to the fore. On 17th. October, 1942, ten aircraft took part in a daylight raid on Le Creusot and on 22nd. October, 1942, 12 aircraft bombed Genoa, which was our first incursion of Italian territory. Two days later, we went to Italy again, this time in daylight when 11 aircraft bombed Milan. Not a single aircraft was lost on these three raids.
November, and December, 1942, were notable for the frequency of our attacks on Italian Targets – attacks which were usually highly successful and which produced an abundance of superb photographs. Germany was not forgotten, however, and in mid-January, 1943, two heavy raids on successive nights were made on Berlin. Mr. Richard Dimbleby the B.B.C. War Correspondent, flew on one of these and his story was subsequently broadcast to the World.
In January 1943, a new Pathfinder technique (Wanganui and Parrametta) was introduced and the Squadron assisted in these experiments – usually five aircraft were supplied for attacks on Essen or Duisburg. The entire attacking force normally numbered no more than about 25 aircraft, and owing to the limited numbers the raids were exceedingly dangerous and unpleasant. The losses incurred were not light but these experiments led to the sudden smashing assault on 5th. March, 1943, on Essen – an attack which may well be regarded as a forerunner of the scores of concentrated assaults which were to follow on the Ruhr and elsewhere.
Unusually fine weather enabled operations to be carried out with great frequency and the Squadron roamed far and wide over France, Germany and Italy. Many successes came our way. After having been second in January, we headed the No. 5 Group ladder in February and were second again in March. On a raid against Milan we obtained six aiming point photographs – a new Bomber Command Record which earned a congratulatory message from the A.O.C.
In March, 1943, came a change of Command. W/Cdr. G.P. Gibson D.S.O. D.F.C., (he had won the DSO. And Bar for his brilliant work on the Squadron) was posted to form a new Squadron which subsequently achieved fame by its ‘Dam Busting’ raid. Be it noted that apart from W/Cdr. Gibson 25% of the pilots who reached the target were ex-106 Squadron.
The new Commanding Officer was W/Cdr. J.H. Searby DFC, who had joined the Squadron as ‘B’ Flight Commander in October, 1942. Under his Command the Squadron continued to hold its high place amongst Bomber Command’s best Squadrons Nuremburg, Munich and Berlin, in March, Stettin, Spezia and the Skoda works in April were, perhaps, the most notable efforts.
At the beginning of May, 1943, W/Cdr. Searby left us to take Command of a Pathfinder Squadron – he was shortly afterwards promoted Group Captain and was later to win the D.S.O. His successor was W/Cdr. R.E. Baxter.
3.
[page break]
Encouraged by the overwhelming success of the bombing of Essen, the avowed intention of Bomber Command was the destruction of the industrial Ruhr, and in May, the battle was joined in earnest. For three months the Ruhr was bombed ceaselessly and remorsely – enormous areas were devastated in each raid. Sometimes whole towns such as Wuppertal and Remscherd, were virtually eliminated in a single night. The Squadron was well to the fore in this series of grim, determined attacks which were met with fierce and desperate opposition. Many fine crews were lost but we may well be proud of our part in a battle which finally resulted in complete victory.
At the end of July, 1943, Bomber Command started – and won – the Battle of Hamburg. In four attacks, startling in their ferocity and concentration – a vast tonnage of bombs was unloaded on a vital target. In less than a week Hamburg had been reduced to a smouldering ruin. In these attacks we sent 58 aircraft and dropped 240 tons of bombs.
As a welcome variation of the almost nightly run to the Ruhr, a favoured few made a trip to North Africa by way of the R.D.F. factories at Friedrichshaven the first of the shuttle service raids. Later still, three crews made low-level attacks on an Italian power station.
Raids on a miscellany of targets followed, outstanding amongst them being the attack on the R.D.F. and experimental at Peenamunde. The Squadron did extremely well on this raid – nine aircraft made the attack, two landing point photographs were taken, a fighter was shot down and not an aircraft was lost.
September and October saw heavy bombing of Nuremburg, Munich Kassel and Leipzig. Hanover had several attacks as did Berlin – a preliminary round maybe? During this late summer and early Autumn period, the Squadron operated steadily and consistently. It had one bad spell and owing to repeated losses it was reduced to only seven aircraft but there were several fine performances, both by the Squadron as a whole and by individual crews.
In November, 1943, after a years happy and successful residence at Syerston the Squadron moved to Metheringham, then a satellite of RAF. Coningsby and later embraced by the newly formed No. 54 Base. The camp was a new one – indeed, it was very far from complete. Apart from personal difficulties the obstacles to efficient operating were very real, not the least of which were the widely dispersed sites. Lack of transport, unpleasantly cold and wet weather, and a very large number of influenza victims. Despite these handicaps the Squadron rose to the occasion magnificently – on four of our first six raids we despatched more aircraft and dropped more tons of bombs than any other Squadron in No. 5. Group.
Coincidental of our arrival at Metheringham, Bomber Command opened its night offensive against Berlin. It was an assault which resolved itself into a grim unrelenting battle against cunning and bitter defences and, not infrequently appalling weather. The Squadron was in the thick of the fray from the first raid on 17/18th. November, 1943 and during the next three months took part in 15 attacks on the Reich Capital. Including an attack in late March, 1944, we despatched 233 aircraft and dropped over 900 tons of bombs – it may be claimed with confidence that our contribution to the Battle of Berlin was not exceeded by any other Squadron in Bomber Command.
There were, of course, other targets bombed during the 1943/1944 Winter. Leipzig, Magdeburg and Stettin are examples but even these targets were interwoven with campaign against Berlin, employed as they were to confuse the enemy defences. With the virtual elimination of Berlin, achieved in February, other targets were chosen – Schweinfurt, Augsburg and Stuttgart to name only three.
4.
[page break]
In March 1944, a most important development in Pathfinder technique was evolved and the Squadron assisted in the experiments which finally led to the ‘Spot-fire’ target marking. The Commanding Officer of the famous No. 617 sqdn was employing a technique of marking an objective from the very low-level and then instructing the bombing force to bomb the target in relation to its position to the spot fire. The objective chosen for the experiments were small but important factories in France – Claremount, Ferrand Rubber Factories, the explosives factory at Angouleme, the munitions factories at Bergerac. Six experienced Squadron crews would precede the 617 Sqdn. aircraft, locate the target and illuminate it with flares, in the light of which W/Cdr. Cheshire, in a Mosquito would drop the markers. There invariably followed a highly accurate bombardment (with 12,00 lb bombs), our own aircraft adding to the general destruction with loads of incendiaries. Very soon this technique was universally employed and without doubt was largely responsible for the countless successful attacks on targets, large and small, in the following months.
At this time the Squadron was once more on the crest of a wave of success. For the first quarter of 1944, we were leading every other 5 Group Squadron by a handsome margin. Our accident rate was the lowest, our operational losses were proportionately less than those of any other Squadron. Our training hours were the highest by far, and for three consecutive months we won the 5 Group Bombing competition.
In March, 1944, W/Cdr. R.E. Baxter, recently awarded the D.F.C., was posted and W/Cdr. E.K. Piercey assumed command.
With the advent of Spring, the sole topic of war conversation was ‘Invasion’. Although it did not take place until June, the Squadron was busily employed in paving the way with attacks on lines of communications, military camps and munition factories in France – although German cities were not entirely neglected, two outstanding attacks in those on Munich and Schweinfurt in April.
Considerable success was achieved and we assisted in the destruction of many vitally important targets. Anti-aircraft opposition was generally less intense than that experience in Germany and the majority of targets were accordingly bombed from a comparatively low level – between 4,000 and 10,000ft. Usually careful routeing enabled us to avoid the fighter packs – but not always. On two or three occasions the Squadron suffered heavy and bitter losses – five aircraft were lost on 26th. April, 1944, a few nights later another four failed to return. A total of 12 was lost in less than a fortnight.
Sea mining was not neglected and the Squadron effected a remarkable performance on 9/10th. April, 1944, when three aircraft, in face of intense flack, laid mines from 150 ft. in the Konigberger See-Kanel. It may be remarked that my Lords of the Admiralty, as on previous occasions, were so delighted by the success of the operation and so impressed by the gallantry of the crews, that they were constrained to send their congratulations in terms so effusive as to bear no relation to their traditional unemotional silence.
Towards the end of May our targets included Coastal Gun Batteries in France – targets obviously so important and urgent that the weather incredibly adverse was repeatedly defied. On the last night of May, for example, 12 aircraft took off to bomb the Maisy Gun Battery in a thunderstorm of unusual violence.
Returning at dawn on 6th June, 1944, having bombed the Coastal Gun Battery at St. Pierre Du Mont our crews saw some of the vast armada of ships heading for the Normandy Coast. “D.Day” had arrived and it heralded a period of intensive work by the Squadron – that same night 16 aircraft were making a low level attack on the bridges at Caen. Broadly, the Squadron was employed during the ensuing weeks on two missions – firstly, tactically and strategic bombing in accordance with military requirements, secondly in the assaults upon the Flying Bomb Dumps.
5.
[page break]
By day and night, the Squadron operated consistently. It is impossible to record the many targets which we bombed with repeated success – they were targets of priority which mostly had a bearing of military operations. At first, they were confined to Railway Yards – Orleans, Poitiers, Nantes, Nevers and Vitry le Francois, are a few which come readily to mind. Occasionally we were called into assist the Ground Forces, notable occasions being the obliteration of Aunay-sur-Odon and whatever enemy Panzer divisions which were sheltering there, and the tremendous bombing on Caen on 18th. July. Special mention must be made of the daylight bombing of St. Syr Air Park when all 20 crews taking part obtained aiming point pictures.
Soon after the invasion, the enemy launched against London and the Southern Counties, his much heralded ‘Secret Weapon’ campaign – his missile becoming known, officially as the Flying Bomb. A.D.G.B. and the A.A. defences shot down enormous numbers whilst Bomber Command sought out the launching sites, and deluged them with incredible quantity of bombs. No. 106 Squadron was seen in action against these sites and dumps and took part in four night and nine daylight attacks upon them. Sometimes, especially at night, large fighter forces were deployed to protect the objectives and against the St. Leu De’Esseraunt dump, the Squadron lost two aircraft on 4th. July and two nights later lost another five. In all other cases, however, the attacks were completed without loss.
August 1944 was a month of high endeavour and was a splendid climax to our great efforts of the past few months. In the first half of the month we operated on no fewer than eight days and five nights, our targets ranging from Flying Bomb Dumps to German industrial centres, from enemy troop concentrations to submarine pens, from airfields to marshalling yards. The month ended with notable mining sorties and two devastating attacks on Konigsburg. The last of which saw the loss of the Station Commander, G/Capt. W.N. McKechnie, G.C. who was taking a new crew on their first operational flight. During this month of consistent achievement, the Squadron despatched 291 aircraft and dropped 1199 tons of bombs – no other Squadron in 5 Group has despatched so many aircraft or dropped such a tonnage of bombs in any single month of the War.
On this triumphant note, the Squadron entered its fifth year of Operational flying.
At the end of August, 1944, W/Cdr. M.M.J. Stevens assumed Command of the Squadron, he was the Squadron’s tenth wartime Commanding Officer.
The return of the longer nights saw the Squadron turning away from the Military targets to the Strategical targets of pre-invasion days. The month saw more incendiary raids on major German cities such as Stuttgart, Karlsruhe, Muchen Gladbach to name a few.
On 13th September, 1944, the Squadron received a great compliment, it was allotted the task of training all the new crews of No. 5 Group’s Pathfinder Squadrons. This meant that only a nucleus of six permanent crews were kept, the rest, after a period of intensive training and operating were passed on to 83 and 97 Squadrons, and it was expected that this would cause a drop in the Squadron’s operational effort.
The month of October, 1944 saw the Squadron back in its old stride, despite its commitments as a nursery for P.F.F. Its targets were again getting deep into Germany, and again all strategical targets. Only two military targets were attacked, one was the breaching of the Sea Wall at Westkappelle on the island of Walcheren.
6.
[page break]
Mining was not neglected this month, the Squadron dropping a total of 100 mines in three nights.
November, 1944, saw the attacks against the Dortmund Ems Canal and Millteland Canal increasing. The Squadron taking part in raids on them at various points, on the first of these one aircraft, JB.663 completed its 100th sortie.
On November, 23. 1944, the Squadron created a New Record; on the raid against Munich it had 23 aircraft airborne, all of which successfully completed their missions and returned to Base, the aircraft being landed on F.I.D.O. due to bad visibility.
In the next month, December, 1944, the Squadron was busy attacking the German Navy, both with mines and bombs. On December, 13th 1944, 106 Squadron with the rest of 54 Base (617, 83 and 97) took part in a strike against the Emden at Horten. On December, 16th. 1944, 15 aircraft of the Squadron were the only aircraft in command of operations, they dropped 70 mines in the entrances to the Ports of Danzig and Gydnia.
A heavy but successful year ended with the bombing of enemy troop concentrations at Houffalaize when the German Ardennesoffensive was at its height
The Squadron could look back with pride over its achievements of 1944. In addition to its fine operational record and its new job of P.F.F. training, it had also held the 5 Group Trophy for the least number of avoidable accidents for nine months out of the year. The first day of 1945 saw two attacks on the German inland water system the Dortmund Ems Canal and the Mittland Canal, one by day and one by night , both of which were highly successful. The canals being completely breached at both places. The end of the month saw the start of the final battle for German oil, with two attacks, one to Leuna nr Leipzig and the other to Brux in Czechoslovakia.
Again in Feb. 1945, the Dortmund Ems Canal was heavily attacked and the Germans having been given just enough time to get the damage cleared away and the breeches mended. The month included more mining, and attacks against oil targets, and the Squadron also participated in the historic attack on Dresden.
On Feb. 8th. 1945, it was allotted another new role, being given the task of making a ‘spoof’ attack at New Brandenburg, while the rest of five Group was making an attack at Politz, about 70 miles away. The Squadron provided its own controller, marker leader, marking force, flare force and main force. The ‘spoof’ was a great success – helping to divert the enemy night fighters from the main attack – and was considered a good nights outing by everyone taking part.
The immediate award of the D.F.C. was announced this month to Sqdn. Commander, W/Cdr. M.M.J. Stevens.
March 1945, produced another new innovation for Bomber Command, the thousand bomber daylight attacks on Essen and Dortmund. In both of these 106 Squadron played its part. These were essential military attacks, and greatly assisted the coming allied offensive, for the crossing of the Rhine.
The rest of the month was taken up with increasingly heavy attacks against the German Oil supplies – mostly in the Leipzig area.
On 15th. March 1945, W/Cdr. L.G. Levis assumed Command of the Squadron W/Cd. M.M. Stevens, D.F.C. being posted to the Command of R.A.F. Station, Coningsby.
7.
[page break]
The month of April, 1945, commenced with a daylight attack on enemy concentrations at Nordhausen. This was quickly followed by more attacks on enemy oil installations, on one of which the Squadron Commander W/Cdr. Levis had to do a forced landing at Wing, after being well and truly ‘shot up’
The Squadron’s last sortie of the War was against small oil refinery at Tonsburg near Oslo, on 25th April, 1945.
With the coming of May, 1945, the Squadron was standing by to help with operation ‘Exodus’ – and on May, 9th. 1945, when peace was at last a reality, 15 aircraft of the Squadron were at Rheine airfield, near the Dortmund Ems Canal, helping to evacuate released P.O.W.
No. of Nights operated . . 496. Number of days operated . . . . . . 46
Total . . . . 542.
Total number of sorties . . 5834 Total bombs & mines dropped . . . 17,781 tons
Losses. . . 187 Aircraft.
Enemy aircraft destroyed. 20. Probably destroyed . . . . . 3
Damaged . . . . . 29
Decorations awarded to members of the Squadron . . V.C. 1,
DSO. 4,
Bar to D.S.O 1,
DFC. 144,
Bar to DFC. 9,
AFC. 1,
DFM. 95,
Bar to DFM. 5.
Conspicuous Gall M.1.
B.E.M. (Mil. Div.) 1.
Total . . . . . . . . . . . 262.
No attempt has been made in this short history to analyze the work the Squadron has been called upon to perform or to place such work in the vast frame work of Bomber Command’s activities. The foregoing pages strive merely to chronicle, simply, briefly and objectively the operational activities of No. 106. Squadron from its inception to May 9th. 1945 – the end of hostilities in Europe.
8.
[page break]
[underlined] SQUADRON COMMANDERS [/underlined]
February, 1918 – Major E.A.B. Rice
November, 1918 – Captain R. Duncan
September, 1938 – S/Ldr. W.C. Sheen
October, 1939 – W/Cdr G.R. Montgomerie
June, 1940 – S/Ldr. R.D. Stubbs, DFC
November, 1940 – W/Cdr. W.J.H. Lindlay
April, 1941 – W/Cdr. J.P. Polglaise
May, 1941 – W/Cdr. R.S. Allen, DFC
March, 1942 – G.P. Gibson, VC. DSO. DFC.
March, 1943 – W/Cdr. J.H. Searby, DFC
May, 1943 – W/Cdr. R.E. Baxter, DFC
March, 1944 – W/Cdr. E.K. Pearcy, DFC
August, 1944 – W/Cdr. M.M.J. Stevens, DFC
April, 1945 – W/Cdr. L.G. Levis.
[underlined] AIRCRAFT FLOWN BY NO. 106 SQUADRON [/underlined]
May, 1918 to January 1919 – R.E.8.
Jan. 1919 to Oct. 1919 – Bristol Fighters
June 1938 to July 1938 – Fairey Hind.
July 1938 to May 1939 – Fairey Battle.
May 1939 to May 1942 – Hampden
May 1942 to July 1942 – Manchester
July 1942 – Lancaster.
[underlined] LOCATIONS [/underlined]
30.9.17 – Andover
21.5.18 – Ayr
30.5.18 – Fermoy
1.6.38 – Abingdon
1.9.38 – Thornaby
26.9.38 – Grantham
14.10.38 – Thornaby
2.9.39 – Cottesmore
6.10.39 – Finningley
8.2.41 – Coningsby
10.9.42 – Syerston
12.11.43 – Metheringham.
9.
[page break]
[book cover]
[inserted][circled] 26 [/circled][/inserted]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
History of 106 Squadron
Description
An account of the resource
A short history of 106 Squadron. Covers formation in world war one. Reformed in 1938 with Hinds and Battles. Equipped with Hampden at beginning of the war. Initially a advanced training unit. Became operational in September 1940. Describes early bombing operations and mentions commanding officers. Re-equipped with Manchester in March 1942 and the Lancaster in May. Continues with descriptions of operations through 1942 and 1943. Gibson handed over as commanding officer in March 1943. Mentions new pathfinder techniques being developed. Continues with description of operations 1943 move to Metheringham, operation in 1944, invasion, covers commanding officers throughout, operating as pathfinders. Concludes with description of events and operations in 1945. Gives data on operations, lists squadron commanders, aircraft, and locations.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1917
1918
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany
Germany--Cologne
France
France--Brest
France--Gosnay
Norway
Norway--Oslo
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Lübeck
Germany--Rostock
Poland
Poland--Gdynia
Germany--Bremen
Poland--Gdańsk
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Friedrichshafen
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Magdeburg
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Schweinfurt
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Stuttgart
France--Clermont-Ferrand
France--Normandy
France--Orléans
France--Poitiers
France--Nantes
France--Nevers
France--Vitry-le-François
France--Caen
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Netherlands
Netherlands--Walcheren
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Mittelland Canal
Czech Republic
Germany--Neubrandenburg
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
England--Oxfordshire
England--Rutland
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Czech Republic--Most
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Format
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Nine page typewritten document
Identifier
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SPerryWRP1317696v60011, SPerryWRP1317696v60001
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Steve Baldwin
106 Squadron
5 Group
617 Squadron
Battle
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Hampden
Lancaster
Manchester
mine laying
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Abingdon
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Finningley
RAF Metheringham
RAF Syerston
Tallboy
target indicator
training
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2559/43602/SLambertBrownP19330417v10002.1.jpg
0eb8b66ecfd7c1c492e3449c097941dc
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Lambert-Brown, Peter
P Lambert-Brown
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. The collection concerns Peter Lambert-Brown (b. 1933 Royal Navy). A collection of documents compiled for the Admiralty detailing the bombing of the Royal Navy Dockyards in Malta. The collection covers the siege of Malta and includes the various vessels and docks that were damaged, and the repairs that were undertaken carried out.
The collection was donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jacqueline Sherman and catalogued by Benjamin Turner.
Date
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2023-05-12
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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LambertBrown, P
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[postmark]
Y.L 1097.
[underlined] HISTORY OF MALTA DOCKYARD DURING WAR [/underlined]
A. L. D. 13594/45 of 21.6.45 (1446).
SECRETARY OF THE ADMIRALTY.
The attached papers give a general “history” of Malta Dockyard during the War as requested in Admiralty letter D. 13594/45 of 21st June 1945.
2. (a) [underlined] The General Narrative [/underlined] (Appendix I) was written by Mr E.W. Colvill, the Secretary, who was in Malta for the whole period.
(b) Workpeople. (Appendix II)
(c) [underlined] Important Items of work [/underlined]:
(i) New Construction. (Appendix III)
(ii) Major refits and/or Battle repairs etc. (Appendix IV) For details of the repairs to USS. “SAVANNAH” and USS. “PHILADELPHIA” see Yard letters Nos. 15 of 6th January 1944 and No. 894 of 9th September 1944. These were the two largest jobs.
(iii) Other work. (Appendix V (a) to (f)).
(d) Air Raids. (Appendix VI)
(e) Narrative of Dock. (Appendix VII)
(f) List of vessels sunk. (Appendix VIII)
(SD.) PIERS K. KEKEWICH
COMMODORE SUPERINTENDENT, MALTA.
[indecipherable words]
[underlined] [indecipherable words] [/underlined] .
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
History of Malta Dockyard During War
Description
An account of the resource
A letter written by the Commodore Superintendent Piers Keane Kekewich to the Admiralty, detailing the various reports on the the Malta Dockyard during the war.
Creator
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Piers Keane Kekewich
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-09-29
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1944-01-06
1944-09-09
1945
1945-06-21
1945-09-29
Spatial Coverage
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Malta
Coverage
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Royal Navy
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Format
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Typewritten letter
Contributor
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Benjamin Turner
Identifier
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SLambertBrownP19330417v10002
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
bombing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/196/3329/AAn01134-170717.2.mp3
aec7073168ada9cb3517eca4b855dca9
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
A Survivor of the bombing of Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with a survivor of the bombing of Berlin, who wishes to remain anonymous.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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An01134
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 17th of July 2017 and I’m in Great Horwood in Buckinghamshire [deleted] who normally lives in Berlin and I’m going to talk to her about her experiences as a child in Germany, particularly in Berlin, during the war. So [deleted] what is the earliest thing you remember in your life?
ANON: [laughs] Switch off that. I can’t think.
CB: Ok. So where did you live?
ANON: Where did I live? I lived in Berlin. I was born in Berlin and I’m back there.
CB: You said, in a small flat.
ANON: Yeah. My grandparents lived not far away and we would go there most days and play cards or family games. My father died when I was nine. My mother had to go to work then in order to keep her and me. It was hard. It was hard for her.
CB: How did your father die? Did he have an accident or was he ill?
ANON: It was an accident. Yeah.
CB: Pardon?
[pause]
CB: Right. We’ll stop there for a mo.
ANON: You’ve been telling —
[Recording paused]
CB: You lived in a block of flats. Which floor?
ANON: Fourth.
CB: Ok.
ANON: No lift.
CB: No lift. Right.
ANON: So, everything had, even fuel, had to be carried upstairs.
CB: What did you burn as fuel?
ANON: Pressed coals they called them. Black. Black.
CB: Sort of nuggets.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: I had a happy childhood. We were poor but I was happy. My parents could not afford a bike. I can’t —
CB: So, when you went your grandparents you played cards. What else did you do? Did you have meals there?
ANON: On the opposite side was a big sports place. In winter you could skate on there.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: And in the summer we would kick a ball or have one of those —
Other: Skipping rope.
ANON: Skipping ropes. Yeah.
CB: Yes. And was there plenty of food when you were very young?
ANON: Yeah. Yeah. We had. We weren’t hungry. Yeah.
CB: What was your favourite food? Children tend to have favourites.
ANON: Yeah. I can’t remember. My mother would do eintopft.
Other: Thick soups.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Thick soups.
ANON: What?
CB: Thick soup was it?
ANON: Thick soup? Well everything in one pot. Cabbage and meat.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
ANON: And potatoes. You know.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: And I was very very blonde and by looks typical German. What’s the name?
CB: Aryan.
ANON: Yeah. But I didn’t do anything. I just looked that way. My blonde hair. And two, two steps below. Oh my English.
CB: Two floors. Yeah.
ANON: My English.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: I’ve been back so long.
CB: That’s alright. Two floors below.
ANON: Yeah. There was a lady and she always called me in and gave me pudding.
Other: Blancmange.
ANON: What?
Other: Blancmange.
ANON: And she would ask my mother could she take me along because she thought I was a gorgeous little girl. I didn’t think so but she did.
CB: Right.
ANON: [unclear]
CB: What about — what about schoolfriends?
ANON: Schoolfriends. Yeah well. I remember one and her hair was jet black and we were the best singers in class. Her and me. And whenever we had biology, which we didn’t like, we persuaded to let us sing the latest song or something. Henie her name was. She was a Jew. We were the best of friends in those days.
CB: So you were born in 1930.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: And the war started in September 1939.
ANON: That’s right.
CB: What do you remember about that, aged nine?
ANON: I don’t remember much. I went to school and in those days they weren’t bombing Berlin.
CB: But did the school explain that the war had started?
ANON: I bet they did. I can’t remember though. I bet they did. Yeah. It was an ordinary school. It wasn’t a gymnasium. It was an ordinary school. You should, you should go there from six to fourteen.
CB: Right.
ANON: Eight years.
CB: Berlin is a big place so which part of Berlin did you live in?
ANON: Right in the middle.
CB: Right in the middle.
ANON: [unclear]
CB: Right. And then when you, the war had started. As time went on then bombing started did it?
ANON: No. Hitler, HItler said collect all the children. Or as many children as you can and they sent them off to Austria. Near Osterreich. Is it?
Other: You said Austria.
ANON: It might have been southern Germany. And I was there nine or ten months. My mother came to see me and when I go back to Berlin, back to, yeah Berlin, they started bombing us. That day or the next day. I can’t remember.
CB: Oh really. Yes.
ANON: They sent us away and nothing happened and then when we got back it did.
CB: Yes. Well the evacuees had the same experience in Britain. Some of them. Yes. So, when you got back to Berlin then what? Did you stay there?
ANON: I went back to Berlin. Yeah. Had to. Nowhere else to go. And I remember it’s said and, they started bombing us. The British and French would come at night and the Americans during the daytime. And they used to say on the radio schwer kampf bringer.
Other: Heavy party.
ANON: Meaning, meaning bombers are coming.
CB: Yes.
ANON: Flying in over Hanover, Braunsweig. That meant we would be bombed in seven minutes from now. And we grabbed everything we could and took it with us in the cellar. Can we listen to it for a minute?
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Her father died from an accident at work when she was aged nine.
[recording paused]
ANON: Anybody who, who didn’t have running water in Germany. I can’t —
CB: No.
ANON: And we all had electricity.
CB: Yes.
ANON: And we all, we would cook on this. It was made of tiles. This machine. Machine. It’s not a bloody machine.
CB: Cooker.
ANON: It’s an oven.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: It’s an oven.
CB: An oven. Right.
ANON: And put your pots on there and I’m totally out of — its not like me stuttering about like this here but —
CB: No.
ANON: I wasn’t prepared for this.
CB: No. But you see where I live. A village near here. It wasn’t until 1946, after the war, that they had piped water.
ANON: You’re joking.
CB: Or electricity. No.
ANON: What?
CB: No. And the mains drains didn’t come until we joined. We came to the village thirty eight years ago. So, 1979 was when they put the mains drains in so the point that I’m making is in Britain lots of people didn’t have these things and it’s interesting to know what it was like in Germany in the war. How were you getting on? So, you’ve just talked about the cooking. So, it was coal fired cooking.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: And heating.
CB: Yeah.
Other: Momma, say things like —
CB: I’ll stop for a mo.
ANON: Sorry, I didn’t realise.
[Recording paused]
ANON: We would share the toilet with our neighbours.
CB: Oh right.
ANON: But it was, it was a proper water toilet with window and water and and God knows what. They had a key. We had a key. No problem. We never met them. We never saw them.
CB: Right.
ANON: On the toilet I mean.
CB: So, this was on the landing.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: A shared toilet.
ANON: Yeah. Where we lived on the fourth floor it was between. It was three and a half.
CB: What about the bath? Where was that?
ANON: Oh, we would bath in our flats.
CB: It was in the flat. Right.
ANON: My mother would bring a big sink runner.
Other: Tin. Tin.
CB: Tin bath.
ANON: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So the water was heated separately and then poured into the bath.
ANON: And this Kochmachine.
Other: For boiling. Kettle.
ANON: No. She had — oh God how can I explain this? The oven.
CB: Yes. The oven.
ANON: The stove. It was about as big as this. Half a table.
CB: Yes.
ANON: And there were some rings here.
CB: Four foot square.
ANON: And you could hang the cooking pot in. And if you had a cooking bigger pot you could take out the other ring. The next ring. You know what I mean?
CB: Yes.
ANON: There were about four or five rings. And also here we had [pause] sugar.
CB: Did you have a hot plate?
ANON: Yeah. Two.
CB: Two hot plates.
ANON: They were gas and it was near an open fire and it was gas.
CB: Right. And it had an oven. Was the oven powered by the gas or —
ANON: No, the oven was powered by —
CB: The coal.
ANON: By — yeah. Coal.
CB: Right.
ANON: We fetched from the cellar. Up the stairs.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: It was lovely.
CB: And you had electricity.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: But did you have power all the time?
ANON: All the time.
CB: Or did you have power cuts?
ANON: All the time. We had power all the time. Oh, during the war?
CB: Yes.
ANON: Oh, well, I can’t remember but I know that before the war we always, well as far as I remember we always had.
CB: You always had supplies.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: So, in the war when the raids came you had a quarter of an hour or something notice.
ANON: Less.
CB: Less than that. Then you went in to the cellar.
ANON: We went into the cellar.
CB: Everybody was there.
ANON: Yeah. Except two ladies. They weren’t allowed in any more. And my mother asked, ‘Why not?’ And they said, ‘They’re Jews.’
CB: Oh.
ANON: And my mother said, ‘They’re human beings like you and me. They want protection. Let them come down.’ Nein. Nein. Had she been reported she would have been taken away.
CB: Right.
ANON: Anyway, this fellow wasn’t all bad. He let them come down but apart from other people so other people wouldn’t be offended. A load of rubbish.
CB: And how did you know that the danger had passed when you were in there?
ANON: Oh, there would be a siren going.
CB: Right. So, there would have been a siren to begin with. To warn you.
ANON: Yes. Sure. Yeah.
CB: And then —
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Another one to say the all clear.
ANON: And I remember if it happened three times in a night which it did sometimes then we didn’t have to go to school the next morning.
CB: Right.
ANON: Meanwhile they bombed our school and I remember at one time at one time we had sixty two children in one class. I also remember one thing. I told you I went to see my grandma almost every day. All of us. And we were coming back towards our flat and on the other side of the street there was this terrible noise. They were breaking shop windows. And it was a jeweller and he had a big star on his shop window. Jew. The word “Jew” written in it and this night they came and demolished shop, pinched, took all the, well I should imagine SS men. My father saw that and he wanted to go across and help those people and my mother knew if he goes across there he’s going to be dead in two minutes. I’ve never before or since seen a woman fight as hard. My father couldn’t make it across the street. She was too strong for him. I’ve never seen anything like it. She was stronger than him and he was a strong man. It was she was frightened. So, we went home but it was a terrible experience. Switch that off.
CB: So, it said on the window, “Juden.”
ANON: Yeah. “Jude.”
CB: “Jude.” Right.
ANON: They all had to wear, they had to wear it here or here.
CB: Yeah. So, what happened to them?
ANON: No idea. We know that sometimes a car would go by, a van would go by and there was people on it but we thought they were sent to work camps. You know. When they had to work for the Nazis. But we had no — people weren’t, we had no idea. We had no idea. The first time I saw or heard about the concentration camp was when the war was over and the allies were showing us a film. And I said, ‘Yeah. Now we’ve lost the war they can tell us anything.’ It took weeks and month ‘til we could, ‘til we could believe that they killed those people. But nobody believes it today — that we didn’t know. Well we didn’t know. We did not know.
CB: Well the camps weren’t near Berlin were they?
ANON: No. They were out in the wilds somewhere. [unclear] There were several in Germany but I thought they were just sending them to work.
CB: How did you get that impression?
ANON: How did I get—?
CB: How did you get that impression? Was it put on the radio or in the ‘paper? Or —
ANON: No. They sent us, they showed us films.
CB: No. no. I’m talking about in the war you thought they were going to work camps.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: How did you get that idea?
ANON: I didn’t get any idea. I saw those vans going by with people on it.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: And I thought they’d taken them to camps. That’s all.
CB: Yeah. Right.
ANON: Today everybody says that. We didn’t know. We did not know.
CB: And the radio was working all the time. What sort of messages were coming out on that that you, as a child, would appreciate?
ANON: I can’t remember that. I can’t remember that.
CB: Did the — did the German radio have children’s programmes that you remember?
ANON: I can’t remember.
CB: Right.
ANON: We would, we would mostly have listened to news to find out where the allies were. We wanted them to get to Berlin before the Russians [pause] but they had an agreement with Stalin. And he said he lost the most men and he wanted the right to take Berlin and so the French and the British waited. Waited and waited and let them come. Oh, it was, that was when I was frightened most.
CB: Were you? Yeah.
ANON: During the war I wasn’t so frightened. When the Russians came that frightened me.
CB: So, the Battle of Berlin was the middle of April 1945 to the 2nd of May.
ANON: They fought for every house. They fought for every house. They fought for every street. Hitler — Hitler destroyed most bridges. Berlin, I found out since, had more bridges than Venice and he destroyed most bridges. And I remember going somewhere and there were this bridge was gone but there was a big pipe like this and people would walk across it. I forced myself. In the middle of it, I couldn’t, I couldn’t go forwards or backwards. They had to come from both sides and guide me because if your feet had fell down it would have gone in to the water you’d have been — because the bridge were [expedien?] destroyed. All the iron pieces were sticking up. You know.
CB: Oh right.
ANON: So if you had fallen you would have been a dead one.
CB: You’d be impaled on it.
ANON: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember I went to work. I left school when I was thirteen and a half and I got a job straightaway in an office.
CB: So that’s 1943.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
ANON: No. The war was finished.
CB: Ah.
ANON: The war was finished. And that’s when we got hungry. We had nothing to eat. Bloody hell. It was terrible. Hunger is terrible.
CB: How did you get food?
ANON: How did we get food? We got cards, tickets and it says five hundred grams of something and something else. I remember once my mother sending me to the baker and fetch our last bread or whatever it was and I ate it all the way coming home. A whole loaf. And there was nothing left for my mother. Oh I felt — but the hunger was bigger than the — God.
CB: So, who was distributing the food. Was it the Russians? Or was it done —
ANON: Yeah.
CB: By the German authorities.
ANON: It must have been the Russians at first. Some were even so kind they — it didn’t happen very often but some would killed a horse so people could eat. And others were not so nice. You know. But I remember as a child we’d go finding splitter.
Other: Shrapnel.
ANON: Pardon?
Other: Shrapnel.
ANON: Yeah. Shrapnel.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: And we could distinguish whether it was from a bomb, from a roof.
CB: A shell.
ANON: Flak.
CB: Anti-aircraft. Yeah.
ANON: Or wherever.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: And we did know that you mustn’t touch the greenish ones. That’s phosphor. It burns your skin through the bone you know.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
ANON: We survived. We survived. Kids. We made a game of that somehow.
CB: So, you collected the scrap metal. What did you do with that?
ANON: Exchanged it. Give me two of those and you get one of these.
CB: Yeah. Exchange it for what? Food or for —
ANON: No. We exchanged it for another shrapnel amongst the children.
CB: Yeah. ‘Cause you were getting a collection together.
ANON: Sort of. Yeah. And then when we were so hungry and the war had finished we’d [unclear] On a train outside. It would take us in to Brandenburg. To a farmer. And I’d have our best. Our best silver. Knives and forks. Give to the farmer. We got a few potatoes. Walk back to the station and the police would take the potatoes off us.
CB: The police took the potatoes off you. Right.
ANON: And back we went to the train. Hung out. And you were so tired. You were so tired and you couldn’t let go. You’ d have been dead. Those farmers. The people used to see all they need is carpet for the cow shed. They got everything else. Yeah. The hunger was terrible. And then bit by bit it got better and better. Oh, and in the meanwhile we had the luftbrucke.
Other: What’s the luftbrucke?
ANON: Can you remember when the —
CB: Well there was the Berlin Airlift in 1948.
ANON: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Is that what you mean? Luftflight. Yes.
ANON: Yeah. Can’t remember what I was going to say about it.
CB: Ok. So the Berlin Airlift.
ANON: Why was I mentioning that? Why.
CB: You were talking about food. Is that what you were thinking of?
ANON: Well anyway I saw this article in the paper where they wanted German girls to come to Berlin er to England they could either go as a nurse, in a textile factory or child minding. Child minding was not for me. Nursing was not for me. So, I went in the factory. I’m not telling you — what’s the reason? Oh, I was going to say that the day, the day I left Berlin for England the what’s the name was stopped. It was open for — luftbrucke had finished.
CB: The Berlin Airlift had finished.
ANON: Yeah. Yeah. And I went to England and here, here they’d got, they’re doing this you know like we used to have to buy bread.
Other: Ration card.
ANON: Yeah. Rations. Yes.
CB: Yes. Where did you land in England? You came by ship.
ANON: Yeah. Yes.
Yes. [unclear] Not Preston.
Other: Harwich.
ANON: Not Harwich. No.
CB: It wasn’t Dover.
ANON: No.
CB: Anyway, you came across.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Yes. And then what did you do? You knew where you were going to go did you?
ANON: Well.
CB: In advance?
ANON: It was, it was governmental, you know. So, we got there and they gave us one pound a week. I think it was a week. And I still smoked in those days and I went to buy some cigarettes and came back. No idea about the money. Couldn’t speak English. Not a single word. And somebody was counting my money and said, ‘You’ve been diddled. You’ve been done.’ And I thought right, I’m going to learn this.
CB: Learn English.
ANON: The very first day in English I learned the English money.
CB: Right.
ANON: I thought nobody else is going to. But on the whole the British were — to me they were good.
CB: So where was your first job?
ANON: My first job. I don’t know but I remember the first landlord. We did three turns around the bed and then, yeah. And my —
Other: You were in Derby.
ANON: What?
Other: Were you in Derby? Derby.
ANON: Yeah, I know. I worked in Derby but when this landlord was turning funny we went to the Labour Exchange, my friend and I. She spoke English. And they sort of viewed us a bit funny but then they decided they believed us. He’d been there previously saying he wants us out because we’re so filthy. That’s why they viewed us the way they did, you know. That was in Derby. So I got away from that job and I finished up at Midland Dyers. Midland Dyers, Derby. And I was there for two years earning quite a bit of money because it was a special job.
CB: Dyeing clothes.
ANON: No.
CB: Dyeing.
ANON: No.
CB: Oh.
ANON: Warping. Warping. A new fibre had just come out. It could have been nylon. I can’t remember. And it went through, it was on a reel and it had to go through some — you see the thing was that two threads had to be like this. Side by side.
Yes.
ANON: It was a fine silky thread. If it was like this it was no good. If it was like this it was no good. It had to be side by side. If we could manage that one of those things were worth about two thousand pounds in those days. So, it was a qualified job, you know. What was your question?
CB: No. Where, what — what was the —
ANON: Midland Dyers.
CB: It was dyeing. Midland Dyers. Dyeing fabric.
ANON: No.
CB: Material.
ANON: No.
CB: Right.
ANON: Warping is it? Warping?
Other: I don’t know.
ANON: What do you call it? What do you call it?
CB: But they were, they were producing this thread.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Which was a man-made fibre.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Right.
ANON: We got that.
CB: And then you had to dye the colour into it.
ANON: You put it on to a beam.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: Beam. God. If I’d have known.
CB: But you were putting a colour on it were you?
ANON: No. We weren’t putting a colour on to it. We were putting it on to a beam.
CB: Right.
ANON: On to a beam. It had to be side by side.
CB: Yes. Ok. And when it was on the beam what did they do with it?
ANON: God knows. They took it away then.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: And we got another new creel and then through the combs. And then on to the —
CB: On to the reel.
ANON: Hmmn.
CB: Right. How much did they pay you for that?
ANON: I can’t remember but it was well, it was well paid. Very well paid. They were saying only as good as miners in those days, you know.
CB: Oh really. Right. And where did you live then? You changed your accommodation.
ANON: I lived with, I can’t remember what she, what her name was but she was ever such a nice lady and she was frightened to let me out at night. She was ever so frightened to let me out. Oh [deleted] no. You mustn’t go out. No. It’s dark. But anyway I lived with her for — I don’t know how long. I can’t remember after that what happened.
CB: Did you come over with your friend from Germany?
ANON: Yeah.
CB: And then how long did you stay together?
ANON: We became friends on the —
CB: On the ship.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Right.
ANON: Yeah. She went off to see her boyfriend. She met this English soldier in Berlin and she came across to see him and she didn’t know he was married with children. Yeah.
CB: So that didn’t work.
ANON: She didn’t like that. He didn’t like that.
CB: What was the attitude of the British people to you as a German, after the war, in England?
ANON: I would, I would say to them, ‘I’ll let you know I’m German.’ One said, ‘Oh well. I speak to everybody.’ And others would sort of turn away but to me I can’t complain. I couldn’t speak English as I said. It came, you know, by and by. And I ask her to write down my name and address. My address. It was [deleted] Chester Green. And she write that down and she sent me for chicken food. The performance I gave in that shop was A1 [laughs] making noises and flapping the wings and all sorts. They fetched out everything they had in this bloody shop. Live chickens. Dead chickens. Cut up chickens. All sorts. No. That wasn’t right. In the end I got what I wanted. Chicken food. We often laughed about that.
CB: So, did you take classes in English to help you?
ANON: No. No. No, I didn’t. My English used to be pretty good. I’ve been back in Germany now for forty years. No. ’77. That’s twenty three.
CB: Yeah. Forty years.
ANON: Forty years. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: And Sharon. I usually speak fifty fifty and now it’s gone to mostly German. So, she will have lost it.
CB: A bit of practice. You’re ok. So, after the dyers then where did you go?
ANON: Home.
CB: The next job?
ANON: Back to Germany.
CB: Oh, did you? Right.
ANON: I stayed there. The, the not the boss but he was the meistergrade — he would he would be the fellow going around the machines. Oiling them and making sure they were all in order and what have you.
CB: The maintenance man.
ANON: Yeah. And my friend and I, she was a keen cyclist. Bike. Not motorcyclist.
CB: Cyclist. Yeah.
ANON: And my landlady was going to Cornwall on holiday and we said, ‘We’ll come and see you.’ [laughs] ‘You can’t. You can’t.’ I couldn’t even, I’d never even ridden a bike before ‘cause I hadn’t got one. My parents couldn’t afford one. Anyway, we went to buy this bike and she says, ‘Have a go.’ And a bus came towards me and I panicked and the wheel was buckled. The front wheel. So, we had to have that repaired or bought a new one. I don’t know. And we managed to get to Devonshire. My landlady couldn’t believe it. She could not believe it. On the way back we accepted lorries that would take us, you know. But going down we didn’t. We slept on the side of the bloody road.
CB: This was summertime was it?
ANON: Yeah. ‘Cause my landlady went on holiday down there. Yeah.
CB: It was.
ANON: Yeah. When I think about that today. When I went home to Germany I had two suitcases. After these two years went back home. I had two suitcases and one was packed with coffee. Pounds and pounds. And we had to sit on the suitcase to close it, you know. Pounds of coffee. And the other one was just clothing. When we got to the Customs they said, ‘Open your suitcase.’ I said, ‘Oh please don’t make me open my suitcase. Three girls sat on it for me to close it, you know.’ We can’t get. Anyway, I talked them into opening just one. ‘Ok then. Which one should I open?’ Which one has the coffee got? This is the one with the coffee. ‘Open that one.’ He says, ‘And what’s in that one? My clothing?’ I said, ‘That’s the one with the coffee.’ I was telling him the bloody truth and he didn’t believe me and he let me go through. He opened the other one because I pointed to the coffee one. They could have had me. I said the truth all the time but the way I did it they get the — yeah.
CB: Was coffee a banned substance?
ANON: Yeah. We could swap that for other foods you know.
CB: It was worth a lot of money.
ANON: We didn’t sell it. We swapped it for other foods.
CB: Oh I see. Right.
ANON: God knows what. I remember. As I say when I was thirteen I started work. Thirteen and three quarters. My mother sending me to the [unclear] for two slices of bread and a little bit of salt. Two slices of bread all day. Hunger is terrible.
CB: Did the food supply, during the war, did the food supply get worse as time went on?
ANON: I should imagine. I can’t remember. But we were never so hungry as just after the war.
CB: After the war.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: In Britain there was rationing throughout the war and until 1954.
ANON: Yeah. I came in ’53. I tell you.
CB: Right.
ANON: That day — Germany — we upped it all and came to Britain.
CB: Came abroad.
ANON: Yeah
CB: Yeah. I remember my parents had a German girl working for them for a while. In Germany though, in the war there was food rationing was there?
ANON: Yeah. But it was sort of, you could get by. You wouldn’t be awake nights because you were so hungry. They did supply us with food. Yeah.
CB: Now, what happened to the family flat during the war? Were you, was your mother in there with you all the time or did it get damaged?
ANON: Yeah, we went to the cellar, down to the cellar in the siren.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: We went to the cellar and in winter or anytime at all we would put on two jackets and two of everything. Except shoes. We put on everything. Two. Carried it all four and half, five, four and a half stairs in to the cellar. Siren. Up again. Second time. The things people can stick to when —
CB: To what extent was the block of flats damaged in the bombing?
ANON: Full of every, you could see the holes where it had been hit. I lived at number 19 and number 18 was burned down and it came through the — in the, [pause] in the cellar the builders have to leave a wall that’s called the fire wall. And that’s easily to break through. That’s where they came from number 18. They came into our cellar. It was so full. It was so crowded and overloaded. I don’t know where the other people finished up but —
CB: But your mother was there with you throughout the war, was she?
ANON: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right. So, what was the general attitude of the population to the bombing? Being bombed. What was their reaction?
ANON: We used to say not very nice words but we couldn’t do anything. We couldn’t do anything. We didn’t want the war. We couldn’t stop it. So, you know.
CB: What did the authorities keep telling you about being bombed?
ANON: At first, they swore blind that no bomb would ever touch Berlin. Yeah. He swallowed his words then. Goering.
CB: You mentioned earlier about picking up the debris some of which was flak.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Some of which was bombs.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: What was the reaction to the incendiaries because a large amount of the ordnance dropped was incendiary so —
ANON: What is that?
CB: Fire bombs.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: You said they were the green ones.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: The shrapnel was green.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: So how did the population react to the firebombing?
ANON: Oh. They didn’t do to us like they did, Berlin never stood in — where was it? In Dresden or somewhere.
CB: Dresden. Yeah.
ANON: They created something specially.
CB: A fire.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Fire storms. Yes. And Hamburg.
ANON: We didn’t have that. We just got bombs and ordinary fires. And, God, when I see pictures today of how Berlin looked in ‘45 I still, to this day, drive through Berlin and think how come, how come they could rebuild it so quickly. It looks as if nothing’s ever happened. I can’t understand that. The first thing that happened after the war women would make themselves a little table of something and find a hammer or something and knock all, grab the bricks and knock all the cement off so the brick could be re-used.
CB: That was their job.
ANON: Yeah. Well that’s, that’s what everybody did. There was nobody to give you a job.
CB: To rebuild.
ANON: Yeah. It was better than sitting about.
CB: How tall was your block of flats? How many floors?
ANON: Four.
CB: You were at the top floor.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Right.
ANON: As I said, no lift. Sugar. And then every night, sometimes three times carrying everything you were able to. Down the cellar and up again. Bloody hell.
CB: So, there was huge destruction. Your block of flats survived.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: What was the view around there? Were there other flats still standing or were they demolished?
ANON: No. They were just, just [pause] no — only number 18 was totally demolished. The others, the others I don’t know. They just had big holes from, from shrapnel, you know. And the Americans — the cheeky devils. They would fly in ever so low during the day and take pictures because they did area bombing, you know. One day they do it from twelve to fifteen or the next day they do it from sixteen to twenty one. They were making sure everybody gets some.
CB: Which areas had the greatest destruction in Berlin?
ANON: I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t know. I only know when I looked around there was nothing. There was nothing. How? I don’t know where people went. It was terrible.
CB: You talked about, in the beginning of the war, children being evacuated. Were they evacuated later or did they just leave families with their children in Berlin?
ANON: Were they what?
CB: Did they evacuate children again later?
ANON: No.
CB: They didn’t.
ANON: There was nothing. No. No. Only this once but I was gone nine months. My mother came to see me.
CB: Yes.
ANON: And when I came back they started bombing Berlin so, you know, they were going to get me somehow.
CB: Yeah. So, you were back after the war. You returned to Berlin. How did you come to meet your husband?
ANON: I met him about six weeks before I went home.
CB: In England.
ANON: In England.
CB: Oh right.
ANON: I didn’t like him all that much.
CB: Why not?
ANON: I didn’t like him all that much at all. As a friend, ok but not as a boyfriend and then I went back to Berlin. God knows when it happened. I don’t know. I was engaged to an American and I said to him, ‘I’ll just go England and say goodbye. It will be ages before I get back to Europe.’ And I saw him again at a dance and six days later we were married. Six or seven days.
CB: So, he had a pretty convincing patter to give to you did he?
ANON: There was nothing. We just saw each other and that was it.
CB: Oh.
ANON: He was engaged. I was engaged. And we met at this dance and that was it.
CB: Where was that?
ANON: Derby. There was live music Rita Rosa and Ted Heath.
CB: Oh.
ANON: Derby, Paris. I can’t remember the name.
CB: Was he in the army? Or was —
ANON: No.
CB: What did he do?
ANON: He went down the mine that year because my father in law had an ice cream business and he needed one at home so he said, ‘Go down the mine and then you can stay at home,’ which he did.
CB: So, what did he do in the mine?
ANON: Coal mining. He didn’t, he didn’t [pause] God my English. Let me explain [unclear]
Other: Dynamite.
ANON: What?
Other: He used dynamite.
CB: He used to do the blasting.
ANON: No. He didn’t. No. He didn’t do the blasting.
CB: But he put in the dynamite did he?
ANON: God knows. I don’t know. I don’t know but I do know he didn’t do blasting.
CB: Right. So how long did he work there when you were married?
ANON: I can’t remember. He should have had to work the two years but he stayed longer because the pay was so good but he did, he did come out and he took over — he had the ice cream in the summer. In the winter they were delivering coal. The miners are entitled to, you know. So, you see there’s nothing, nothing thrilling to tell you.
CB: But then you had your children.
ANON: Yeah. ’55, ’58,’ 65.
CB: By which time your husband was running the ice cream business was he?
ANON: As well as the coal job in the winter. Yeah.
CB: He was still working in the coal mine.
ANON: Yeah.
CB: Right.
ANON: No. Just delivering.
CB: Just delivering. Right.
ANON: Just delivering it to miners.
CB: Right.
ANON: And one day, God knows, he had flu or something and he said, ‘Go and take Mr Jenkins’ and, ‘What do you mean, am I taking him?’ He wanted me to drive the lorry with the coal on. I only did about five customers. Then I went home shaking.
CB: No power steering.
ANON: Power steering in those days. You must be joking. No power steering and a heavy lorry. God. When we got back we got a real rollicking for only doing five customers. Yes. Mr Jenkins said I couldn’t work any faster.
CB: So, when you got back when did you go back to Germany?
ANON: After the two years. I went over in ‘49. I went back in ‘51.
CB: Yes.
ANON: Stayed in Germany for two and a half years.
CB: Yes.
ANON: Never heard from my husband. Never saw him. I wrote him twice. And then his sister wrote and said he’s engaged. And I thought yeah. Ok. So why not? And then I still came to England in ’53 and as I say within six days, special licence, we were married.
CB: Yeah. What was the reaction of German people in Germany to your marrying an Englishman?
ANON: No idea. I was in England.
CB: The family. The extended family.
ANON: The family. I have no idea. I know my mother. My mother. She was all by herself. No sister, no brother, no husband. She had a sister but God knows what they said. I don’t know. I know my mother was heartbroken for a while.
CB: Why was she heartbroken?
ANON: My mother? Because I wasn’t coming back.
CB: Right.
ANON: And she was all by herself.
CB: Right. We’ll stop there for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: When the war ended [deleted] you had only Russians immediately but then you were in the British zone were you? In the British Zone?
ANON: It wasn’t then in the British zone.
CB: No. Right. So, what was the reaction to the Russians and how did they treat you?
ANON: Everybody was scared and wished the British and the French would come. The Americans. But as I say they had this agreement with Stalin with Churchill.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: To let the Russians in first.
CB: Well it was the result of the Yalta conference that they knew that Berlin was going to be in the eastern zone.
ANON: Have you ever [pause], have you got schnipsel papier.
CB: Yeah.
ANON: [unclear]
CB: A piece of paper yeah.
ANON: I can’t draw.
CB: Oh right.
ANON: Imagine. Imagine this is Germany.
CB: Yes.
ANON: Berlin is here.
CB: Yes.
ANON: That is the east.
CB: Yes.
ANON: And these three are French.
CB: In the west.
ANON: The west. Yeah.
CB: The British, French and American.
ANON: English and — yeah.
CB: American.
ANON: Isn’t that brilliant.
CB: Yes.
ANON: And I, and I live in the British part.
CB: Right. Ok.
ANON: The British part is in the middle. The top is French. Then English and Americans are the south west. [unclear].
CB: Right.
ANON: So, what was the public reaction—
CB: Tell him about the what?
CB: The fear.
Other: The fear.
ANON: [unclear]
CB: Your fear of the Russians.
ANON: I know. I don’t like, I don’t like doing that. I think, it think it’s dangerous talk. [Unclear]
Other: She doesn’t want to.
CB: That’s Ok. But in the general population was concerned about the Russians.
ANON: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Because of what they did. Yeah. I mean they flattened Berlin in taking it didn’t they?
ANON: That’s not the worst. The worst thing was that the women were all scared to death.
CB: So how did you, how did your mother defend you against —
ANON: My mother said, ‘Stop shaking.’ She said, ‘I will go for you if they come and fetch you.’ And the Polish woman, she nearly had the [unclear], ‘They don’t take a forty year old if they can have a fifteen year old. Or a thirteen.’ So the, this Polish woman had a big korbsessel.
Other: Whicker chair.
ANON: Yeah. And she said, ‘Now crouch down under this and she put a blanket over me and she sort of sat on it. She didn’t sit but it looked as if she did so the Russians didn’t see me.
CB: Right.
ANON: But as I say another one would kill a horse and, you know, give it to the people so —
Ok. Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AAn01134-170717
Title
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Interview with a survivor of the bombing of Berlin
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:55:36 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2017-07-17
Description
An account of the resource
She tells of her life in Berlin before, during and after the war. She lived with her mother in a block of flats close to the home of her grandparents. Her father died when she was nine years old. During the war she collected shrapnel as souvenirs to swap with her school friends. During the allied bombing she sheltered in the cellar of her block. After the war she suffered the pangs of hunger, and she describes taking silverware to farmers in exchange for a few potatoes. As part of a government scheme, she travelled to the UK to work at a textile factory. She then returned to Germany. She came back to the UK for what she thought would be a final visit but she met and married her husband.
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1943
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
anti-Semitism
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
fear
home front
incendiary device
round-up
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/669/10073/AAn00086-150722.1.mp3
b69da3885a99576f6754191029cb4a7c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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An00086
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with a flight engineer who completed a full tour of operations on Lancasters. The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by a donor who wishes to be anonymous and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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An00086
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AS: My name is Adam Sutch and I’m conducting an oral interview for the International Bomber Command Centre Archive. It’s the 22nd of July 2015. The interviewee wishes to preserve his anonymity but I can record that he was a flight engineer on a Lancaster squadron from May 1944 carrying out a full tour of operations. Thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. I’d like to set the scene by asking you to describe your life before joining the Air Force.
Anonymous: My life before joining the Air Force. Right. Well, I was one of three sons of a widowed mother and in 1939 I was fourteen years old, I think. Yes. Fourteen. Both my brothers, well one brother was already in the Royal Navy having joined when he was twenty one in 1936. So he was at sea when the war started and my second brother joined the Air Force a few months later. So I was left at home to comfort mother and because most of our school in Kent were disrupted by evacuation of children I left school and worked in Chatham Dockyard for a time in various jobs and took the apprentice’s exam there. And was about to sign indentures to become a bench carpenter or something similar but backed off that and my mother couldn’t persuade me from setting my sights on joining the Air Force when I was eighteen. But before that I attempted the aircrew selection board at seventeen and a quarter. I expect you know about that. When one went to London for a selection day and went home miserable because one had failed. But, and they told me to come back when I was eighteen. Ok. And so I went back to Chatham Dockyard and then I, as soon as I was approaching eighteen I volunteered for the Royal Air Force. For ground duties in fact because I’d failed the Aircrew Selection Board first time around. Then what happened? Yes. I was called up. Did the usual rooting through square bashing at Skegness for six weeks and did ability, multiple, multi-choice questionings to see what I was fit for. And they said, ‘Well, you would make a half decent flight mechanic.’ So I was then posted to Cosford for a six month flight mechanic’s course I sort of quite enjoyed. During the course the aircrew occupational flight engineer was introduced. And I think that was in ‘42/’43. Hang on a minute. Ok. Yes. So that was halfway through that flight mechanic’s course. They sent around recruiting sergeants to gather volunteers for aircrew you see. And, and I saw it as an opportunity to do what I’d wanted to do from the start. Aircrew selection board at Birmingham. And I passed that one. Some of the questions were the same ones as I’d answered earlier. But anyway, anyway I passed that one and then I had to complete the flight mechanic’s course before I could go down to St Athan. Anyway, I did that. I did quite well in the exam when I passed out. Then I had to wait for the, for the entries to be teamed up properly you know. In the right capacities and so on. So I did a period of maintenance work on Spitfires on 222 Squadron at Hornchurch. Then in [pause] when did I go? September ’43. Oh, that’s when, yes then I went to St Athan in ’43 as part of the entry of — oh we were all ex-flight mechanics in that particular entry because they based your training to be a flight engineer on your previous experience. So they had a good history of that you see. So that was that and that lasted until January ’44. Way into the spring of ’44. And the day of my final exam I was in hospital with the flu. But anyway, so I was delayed from my colleagues and that’s just a by the way. I lost track of them. But in due course, it was only about two or three months, two or three weeks later I went to Dishforth in Yorkshire to do something called a Heavy Conversion Unit. You’re familiar with those?
AS: Yes.
Anonymous: Yeah. Dishforth. And from there I joined, well I joined up with a crew of Canadians and an American pilot on 419 Squadron. They’d already done, they’d been up to, what do we call it? Operational Training Unit. You know, they were, they’d been through the first bit of being a crew. A six man crew. But they had no flight engineers. They didn’t train them in Canada apparently. So we were bolted on at the Heavy Conversion Unit stage using ancient Halifaxes to, to get familiar with four engines, you know. And for the pilots too because our pilots, you know they were astounded by the size of the four engine ones. And so it was, we were only there for about a fortnight. And then we went on to Middleton St George in, when was that? May, I think. May. Yeah. Just after. Yeah. Yeah. Just after that. May ’44. Went to Middleton St George. And I don’t know if you want any silly humorous things. Semi humorous things. The first thing we did when we got there all the flight engineers on our course concentrated on Halifaxes. This is a typical bit of service. So, I learned all about a Halifax. This will tell you all sorts of things about a Halifax in there. And when we got to Middleton they’d just converted to Lancs you know. Great. Great. Only two weeks previously. So we all had, I had to do a lot of re-learning and, and we did our customary getting used to flying the Lancaster thing. And we wrote off the first one we rode. There was a tyre creep that we weren’t familiar with and the bell blew off halfway down the runway on a very fine Sunday afternoon. So we spent two or three hours messing about over Stockton on Tees etcetera getting rid of petrol. And then we had to attempt a two wheel landing on one of the — I should have said that the, the portside tyre blew off or burst when we were half the way down the runway. We were empty fortunately. No bomb load. And so we stooged around and got rid of the petrol and then we were carrying on to the rear wheel and the good wheel and we were doing very well and holding it levelly until the speed diminished and the wing dropped. And the, where the tyre had burst it dug into the, into the edge of the runway and slewed the aircraft right around and broke its back. And by some quirk of fate it was the particular aircraft that the CO had selected to be his own [laughs] Such as [laughs] Yeah.
AS: Promising start.
Anonymous: So the next time he saw it it was at the end being towed away rather sadly to the end of the runway. The end of the airfield. And I don’t know what happened to it after that. Poor chap. But it was interesting being with Canadians and an American. You know, there was the cultural difference. I mean they eat like eating your first meat meal with jam on it which my pilot liked doing. American Joe this was. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Joe Hartshorn. He was, he was quite a distinguished American pilot and, well he did very well with us actually. But yeah he was a geologist by profession and a very interesting man. And I’ve got something here that he wrote. I don’t know if it, I wonder if it would be any help to you. He wrote his account of life in Bomber Command as an American and he called it, “Under Three Flags,” because he was an American. He went into the Canadian Air Force because he, before the war, before America was in the war and then he was flying under the Union Jack as well. So under three flags. Yeah. They were an immigrant family. His father was a miner in the North Country and they’d gone over there. Anyway, so where were we? On —
AS: You’d just written off the COs Lancaster.
Anonymous: Was it? We then embarked on our, on our operational tour. And I’ve got my logbook. It’s, it’s a very poor standard of paper in some of the logbooks. I suppose it didn’t get a lot of priority really at that time. Is this stuff I’m giving you any use to you?
AS: It is. If there is something beyond gold dust Ken this is it.
Anonymous: Oh right [laughs] Right. So where do we go first? We did our first one. Let’s have a look. That was number seven. [unclear] in, a French troop camp and rest centre. In Belgium it was. Four hours thirty minutes.
AS: Ken, this was just before D-Day you went on ops was it?
Anonymous: Yeah. Well, sadly, it was. Yeah. Because it wasn’t enough before D-Day for us to get the Aircrew Europe medal. Medal. We did, well I’ll tell you, you needn’t write this down early but we did, we completed a tour of thirty two sorties and collected three DFCs and a DFM but we didn’t get the Europe. Anyway —
AS: Because it stopped after the 6th of June didn’t it? it was the —
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: Something like that. Yeah. I’ve long since ceased crying myself to sleep to do that. You know. So that was that. Now that was about the time that the only Canadian VC was earned. You know, the Polish chap.
AS: Mynarski.
Anonymous: That’s him. Yeah. He was on 419. I think, yeah there were two air, there was two squadrons on 419 but I’m sure he was 419. We didn’t know him because we’d only been there about a couple of weeks, you know. But reading accounts of how he earned his VC that’s where it places him. Yeah. So that was interesting. That was a revelation to us all. And of course Joe, the pilot, had done two earlier ones as spare pilot for experience with, with an experienced crew. Just, just went as second pilot on those but that didn’t affect the rest of us. So then we started here. When the first, I mean after the initial shock of seeing, they saw this illumination and explosion ahead of you that you’d got to go flying through we — I don’t know if you want to read that little bit. It came out of the local paper. The paper the Canadians produced. Lorne Vince. That’s it.
AS: It’s staggering that. You know.
Other: It’s great isn’t it?
AS: Yeah.
Other: It’s amazing what’s on there.
Anonymous: I think I’m the only survivor of these you know.
Other: Amazing.
Anonymous: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: But did you kept in good touch after the war?
Anonymous: Yes. I’ve got some photographs of meeting the two gunners and their wives in Toronto when it was our golden wedding anniversary.
Other: Oh brilliant.
Anonymous: We did Canada that year. Yeah.
Other: That would have been rather touching wasn’t it? Catching up after all that time.
Anonymous: Yes. I’ve kept in touch with Joe the pilot by correspondence as well.
Other: Yeah.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: That is amazing. Was this your first trip? When you went on to —
Anonymous: No. That was number — let’s see. It was up the Ruhr somewhere wasn’t it? Yeah. Let’s have a look.
AS: That sounds quite hairy. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit about that.
Anonymous: It was. It was rotten. Yeah. June the — what was it? Number six I thought it was. Bad luck when you can’t read your own logbook isn’t it? Fighter cover. Oh, Sterkrade. That’s the one.
AS: Ok.
Anonymous: That’s the one. Number six.
AS: Ok. So, so that was a daylight op.
Anonymous: No, it was night.
AS: Ok
Anonymous: Does it, does it give a departure time or —
AS: It does. Yeah. 20:14 you’re right
Anonymous: On there. It doesn’t say that?
AS: 20:14. Yeah. You’re right.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: So obviously your gunners are heavily involved. What, what happened on that particular occasion? Can you tell us a little about that?
Anonymous: Well we were, there was a lot of, let me just refresh my memory on it. Then it was, “Shot up by a fighter.” Yeah. “Hammy injured.” Yeah. Ok. Yeah. What happened was the rear gunner shouted out. We were, we were within sight of the target in the Ruhr and Lorne Vince, the rear gunner, shouted, ‘Corkscrew.’ You know, ‘There’s a fighter coming in.’ Or whatever he said at the time. And he let off a burst and the chap came around again. He must have ducked under us and come up again and he raked us from the rear turret right up through the aircraft. The mid-upper turret had a hole, both sides of it, both sides of the globe, you know and poor old Jason was sat there with his head still on, you know. But he was alright. A bit shaken up. And then it came up through the, through the crew area. You know. Up at the front. And some of the flying shrapnel or whatever it was wounded the navigator in the arm and in the leg and he lost a good number of his instruments. And there was a certain amount of flapping going on up there as well. And anyway, Joe kept the aircraft under control and, and Lorne Vince, the gunner must have let off another burst because he got it credited to him as a probable you know. A bit stronger than a probable maybe. Anyway, they decorated him from it and, but we were like a colander by this time, you know, we’re — yeah. And it was very hairy alright but the bomb aimer was ok and we sort of pressed on and got rid of our bombs and got back home in a mess. As Joe, the pilot said, with less aircraft than we started with [laughs] Yes. And so that was our, that was our initiation into the real thing, you know. Yeah. So that was, but Hammy by the way, the navigator, he navigated us home by dead reckoning. You know. He’d lost so many of his instruments and, and so on. Anyway, so he was decorated as well for that account and repatriated so we didn’t see him again. He was the, he was older than the rest of us.
Other: Was he?
Anonymous: Yes. There he is. Hammy. The tall, the tall one second from the right. Left is it?
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: Yeah. That’s it. That’s Hammy. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, he died. He died quite a young man, I think. After the war. But, but he was two or three years older than us and it sort of showed when some of you were nineteen, you know and you’ve got a twenty six, a twenty six year old chap with you, you know.
AS: It’s taking your grandad along.
Anonymous: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. He was great. He was a great chap actually. Anyway, so yeah, so that’s our, then it, I mean I can’t tell you about the variations of the various trips. These were all — if these are in green they’re daylight and if they’re in red they’re night ones. So we, you know, by number eleven we were up the Ruhr again and I mean the typical report would be, “Heavy flak. No fighters.” You know. That was a rail one actually. “Heavy barrage over target,” at Kiel and so on. Stuttgart — flak over target. And so we went on until August time and we were now getting to be a, a sort of an experienced crew you know. And regarded as having a certain amount of luck. Then we had to go, on our twenty third trip we had to go to Stettin which is a long way north isn’t it? And very heavy flak there. I mean the trip took eight hours. It was the longest one we’d done actually. Eight hours and fifty minutes. That’s virtually nine hours isn’t it? And, but we got back unscathed from that. Then we all went on leave and when we got back the first one we were booked for was Stettin [laughs] again. Now this time, I’m speaking from memory now, we were carted around to the dispersals to get in the aircraft, which we did. And we started up and we started taxi-ing around to the, to the hut you know and the breaking and the steering on the ground is all controlled by the rudders. The rudders isn’t it? It was. And there was some fault in that and so we had to stop on the, on the, not on the runway but on the track around. Perimeter track. And they fixed that. Cost us about a half an hour. Three quarters of an hour I suppose. But it’s like going to the pick your own at the supermarket. You know. You get the benefit and then you’ve got to pay for it. By the time we got over the, over to Stettin the main stream had gone through. We’d lost the benefit of Window. You know. The strips. So we were virtually doing a solo act. Not quite of course. There must have been others around. But anyway we were coned by searchlights on the bomb run and, and there wasn’t serious damage but we did [pause] it did start a fire in the starboard inner engine. And we lost, we lost height and we [pause] sufficiently to say in the logbook that we bombed at eleven thousand feet which was quite low, you know. So, and the, I mean it’s quite frightening really when you see these flames going back over the fuselage on the main plane. And the poor old rear gunner in all the noise and shouting and searchlights and so on he [laughs] he came on, ‘What the hell’s happening up there?’ He said, ‘I can’t see a thing.’ You know. So we had to put him in the picture and fortunately we had this cockpit controlled, control for fire extinguishing on each engine. You’d got four, four buttons and you pressed one for each relative engine. And the fire went out. Yeah. It was between fuel tanks. You know, the engine. The starboard inner. And then there was the fuel tank and then another engine but the fuel tank in the middle. It hadn’t got across there and there were no leaks sufficiently to get a big fire going. And what happens with the, when you press that button the engine feathers as well, you know. The blades come around. Do you fly by the way?
AS: A little bit.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: A little bit. Yeah.
Anonymous: So you know what I’m talking about when I say feathering.
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: Yeah. And, and the fire went out. So we all breathed a sigh of relief and set off home, you know. And the practice on our squadron was, half way home normally, if you were over the water you would open the bomb bay doors, give it a shake around a bit to make sure there were no hang-ups and then close the doors again and proceed. When we did that the aerodynamic effect was that it changed the setting of the damaged engine’s propeller and it started unfeathering. All the temperatures went up in there and the fire started again. We were, you know we were well over the North Sea now. Between Stettin and Darlington if you like. Yeah. And we pressed the button again and by some act of God the fire went out again. So we, well to cut the rest of it short we got back [laughs] but it was remarkable really. It was a dickens of a way to contemplate going. Yeah. I mean the Lanc was quite capable of flying on three engines with quite a load on but, yeah but that distance over water, very cold water. Yeah. Anyway, yes, whatever, which one I started. These are not here. But do you know it’s a funny frame of mind you’re in when you’re on these tours. There’s some sort of, oh I don’t know the word [pause] togetherness you know. And a lot of, a lot of genuine feeling is disguised by either bad language or drinking or, or too much bonhomie. You know. That sort of thing. But by and large there was very very few that you come across that were blighted with this wretched, what was it, LMF thing, wasn’t it? Yeah. Yes. That was dreadful. Yes. It’s the only service that punish people to that extent to make it so [pause] Yeah. Yes ok. So there we go. Then we got up to twenty and we began to get hopeful now. By this time, by the way we were going on a number of daylights. D-Day would pass and we were doing army support ones. And the only thing I mention that for is that here you might have seen this in oh that’s one little thing. That was, that was an unofficial photograph taken at the sergeant’s mess on the occasion of that.
AS: The Moose Men. 419 Squadron.
Anonymous: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s yours truly holding that end up.
[pause]
AS: No tie, Ken.
Anonymous: Hmmn?
AS: No tie.
Anonymous: [laughs] No. We were just come back. I don’t know. We used to say that the last thing the cook and butchers did in the kitchen when we were taking off, as soon as the sound died down they put our fried eggs on. They were like yellow rubber heels by the time we got back. So, no. No. This was, the reason I mentioned daylight ones was you might have seen this in, in journals of some sort.
AS: So this, taken from an another aircraft above.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: The Lancaster almost directly underneath. That must have been quite a scary position to be in.
Anonymous: Oh yes. For them it was. The thing is, it was at, we took the photograph.
AS: Oh right.
Anonymous: Yeah. And I’ve got the original. The photographic department broke all the rules and gave us the photograph. Yeah. So, it was us that took the photograph. And what it, it wasn’t somebody aiming a camera at it. It was the, you know at the end of the bomb run, the last exposure on the camera which was photographing the target would be the result if they could. And so that was what, that’s what got caught in the, in the last flash. And you’ll find that in many, many journals on it. Yeah.
AS: That’s extraordinary.
Anonymous: Yeah.
Other: Good framing isn’t it? Great.
Anonymous: Yeah. So, the only other thing we did we — D-Day the Canadian army I think it was, was held up in the Falaise Gap. You know. And we were doing a daylight on the 14th of August in ’44. And it was the one occasion when we earned one of those. Have you seen one of those before?
AS: I have not seen an original. I’ve actually seen a copy of this one.
Anonymous: Have you?
AS: On the internet. On the Moose Men website.
Anonymous: Oh yes.
AS: I have never seen the target token original. That’s just fantastic.
Anonymous: Yeah. That’s one you can take away, I think. If you wish.
AS: Absolutely. Thank you. That will, that will go in the archive.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: Absolutely go in the archive.
Anonymous: Yeah. Ok. And so that was, claimed to be a direct hit you see, on the target which did us all a lot of good, you know. And this — we’d, we got out of our aircraft coming back from a daylight. An early morning one, you know so about a 6 o’clock take-off when we were attacking the flying bomb sites. Ok. And I don’t know, one of the WAAFs I expect had a camera that she shouldn’t have had. And she was down at the dispersal and she took one of each of us as we got out. Apart from Joe. He stayed in.
AS: How did you feel about being photographed? A lot of crew have told me that, or some crew have told me that they felt it was, it was not good luck.
Anonymous: Oh really.
AS: I didn’t, obviously didn’t bother you.
Anonymous: No. No. I don’t think that. I don’t think we discussed that one. No. We were all too vain I expect. Yeah.
Other: How old was the oldest?
Anonymous: Hmmn?
Other: How old was the oldest crew member?
Anonymous: Hamilton. But he only did six with us so he was [pause] I suppose the next one might have been Joe but he was only two or three years older than us, you know.
Other: Yeah.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: Shall we, shall we have a pause there Ken?
Anonymous: Yeah. Why not.
[recording paused]
AS: Here we are back from, from our break. Ken, I’d like to go into your memories of the crew as individuals and then perhaps some of the reunions and the way you kept in touch after that war. If that would suit.
Anonymous: Yes. Right. Well from the top then. We had this maverick chap with us. An American lieutenant of the American Army Air Force who had originally gone up across the relevant parallel to join the RCAF, the Canadian Air Force, before America came into the war. And he did this at the risk of losing his American citizenship in those early days. This was later changed when — after Pearl Harbour. So Joe was a man of great flying ability and saw us through many tight, out of many tight corners. And we were pleased to say that at the end of his time with the Canadian Air Force he went back to the Americans and had quite a distinguished career. A career with them. And became one of the few people in the Air Forces who had a DFC from both of them. Who earned a DFC from both of them. I don’t know why he got it in the American one but I know he stayed in the reserve after the war but we’re thinking about wartime relative. W/O Keelan, Keelan, Bill Keelan was, now where did he live? Somewhere near the Rockies. And he, we acquired Bill when we lost our original navigator over the Ruhr on our sixth trip. Bill was a very quiet chap and kept into, kept at his desk. Rarely came out to view the bomb run or anything of that sort. But he was surprised on one occasion and a bit startled I think when he did pop his head out and saw three or four flamers going down not too far away from us during the bomb run. So he was, it didn’t affect him fortunately. So, and then there’s Tony Delaney was the bomb aimer who often, people who wanted to be pilots but lacked some characteristic that was required and often became bomb aimers. Did you come across that before?
AS: Yes. I think so. Yeah.
Anonymous: You know a lot of people going over from this country had the same sort of selection process I think. And then W/O Lyall. He was quite experienced. The wireless operator. Always anxious to be in the middle of things and, and when he, when he was involved in the shoot up over the Ruhr he was, he was very active in trying to get around and see what else he could do apart from wireless operating at the time. Fred. Fred Grumbly and Lorne Vince both had the same characters really in the sense that they were quite at home being alone for some of these long trips with nobody around them or close to them. You know. And I don’t know what else I can say about them really. So, about the, what we were saying about, yes, seeing them again. Yeah. That’s right. Seeing them again. Yes. For our, for our personal golden wedding my wife and I went to Canada and by arrangement we met both Fred Grumbly and Lorne Vince together with their wives at Toronto and had a marvellous day around the, what is it? The CN Tower or something?
AS: The CNN I think it is. They’re broadcasting towers, I think. Broadcasting.
Anonymous: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s — oh then in addition to that Joe Hartshorn and I kept in touch for most of the period. And he was coming over to Europe on one occasion and came and stayed in Modbury which is quite, that’s this little town here. And he’d expressed a wish to go to an old English pub and stay with his partner and we duly fitted him up with that. And he came over and we had some time together. Took him over on Dartmoor and showed him all the sites over there. And then when he saw me the day after they’d spent their first night in the pub I’d put them in. He said, ‘Marvellous, ‘he said, ‘Lovely flagstones floors.’ You know. He said, ‘It’s the first building I’ve seen in the whole world and I’ve been around a bit,’ he said, ‘That didn’t have a straight wall in it, [laughs] or a right angle in it.’ A right angle. The first building he’d found without a right angle. Yeah.
AS: As a crew. Not when you were operating. When you were down did you all live together?
Anonymous: Well, I mean we were, we were non-commissioned people. Joe, Joe and the navigator Bill, oh wait a minute. Joe was in the officer’s mess, Keelan wasn’t. Delaney was in the officer’s mess. So there were just two in the officer’s mess and the rest of us were in the sergeant’s mess, you know. NCO’s mess. Yeah. So, but socially some of us used to go to the dance hall in Stockton on Tees. The Maison de Dance I think it was called [laughs] with the pub right opposite the door. Yes. So that was our, that was our sort of, I don’t know, our respite I suppose. Swap one noise for another. Yes. But I shall forever remember the Glenn Miller record of “American Patrol,” because we used to think at times it was the only one the band knew. But it stayed with me you know. The American.
Other: The theme tune.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: Your tour seemed to pass relatively quickly. You got thirty two ops in in what, four months which is, is quite — did you feel that you were, it was all happening under pressure? Bang bang bang or did you get lots of time off?
Anonymous: I don’t, I can’t recall. I don’t think we were ever concerned about the frequency. Only if we’d had four in one week we might have done but it was sufficiently phased, I think, to avoid that. I mean during the, this isn’t for, for the narrative by the way, my narrative. My personal view is that the area or the timing of the, all the bravery and so on of Bomber Command doesn’t give enough attention to the early ones who would take off, six or eight of them. Blenheims would take off from Detling and if a couple came back, you know, they’d had a good day. Their navigation wasn’t as good and the equipment wasn’t, was it? You know. But some of those chaps were doing very very long deep European ones and coastal ones. Heavily defended. You know, around the dockyards and so on. I sometimes think that they almost deserve a separate recognition but I know that’s, that’s a vain hope. I do feel, you know, it’s quite right. I mean, if you lose fifty four thousand people and you’re the only command that ever, that was still going at the end of the war that started off then there’s going to be a lots of bravery. I mean there must have been thousands of acts of bravery that nobody will ever know about. Mustn’t there? Yeah.
AS: Someone has to come back to tell. Yeah.
Anonymous: That’s right. Yes. I mean if our, if our engines hadn’t reignited or if the one hadn’t come to life again we could have been in the bottom of the North Sea couldn’t we? In August 1944. No trace. That’s what Runnymede is largely about you know. People who, well they don’t know whether there’s any grave for them. Yeah. Ok. So what was the question?
AS: We were, we had been through your recollections of your crew and keeping in touch after the war. Perhaps we could, we could move on a bit to a different aspect of being a crew. I mean it’s often said that the, the successful and surviving crews were in large part very very disciplined and very skilled. Was your captain? Were you, as a crew practicing your drills, emergency drills religiously? How did you become such an efficient and surviving crew?
Anonymous: Yeah. [pause] I can’t say there was ever any dedicated. You’d have to be selective about what you put here because I don’t want, the last thing I want to do is ruffle, ruffle any feathers. We rarely had team cooperation lectures or practices. We used to do it in practical ways by doing cross country’s at night, you know. And bombing Hull at night. That sort of thing. Yeah. It was practical. Hands on building really. But the most thing, the best thing to build the morale and so on was to get involved in to our Ruhr experience and see what comes out. You know. See where the deficiencies are. Because I mean, talking in modern, modern terms we have this thing called the annual review in big business now don’t we?
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: And there was a lot of suspicion about it when it first came in wasn’t there? Because they thought it was a way of getting rid of me but in fact it was the positive was you got many good qualities which we want to further and exploit and tidy them up or you’ve got several bad habits that are not acceptable. You know. There was a [pause] but I mean none of that, the services have got the basis, or the big advantage of having discipline haven’t they? You know. Ranking. If you come, I was asked to come and work in Plymouth for a time. You can’t say to a man in Civvy Street, ‘You’ll do this because,’ you know, ‘I’ve got three pips and you’ve got three stripes,’ you know. Yeah. You can’t do that. But the military and all the, all those people that have the big weapon of discipline haven’t we? Disciplinary procedures and so on. Anyway, I don’t know why I’m telling you all that but that’s what came more when I was I was doing, well involved in personnel work before I retired you see. So.
AS: I think there’s an element of doing a post mortem really after action. And you linked it to the Ruhr. Your Ruhr operations. So was that, was that a feature of your crew interaction that you discussed previous operations? Hairy experiences or —
Anonymous: I didn’t, I wasn’t party to any discussion on that.
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: No. No. I mean there’s a certain amount of, of relief really that the survivors if you like come back. I don’t, I can’t recall any where they said well we knew there was a bit of a weak link there, you know. Or he ought to be off to Eastchurch. To the LMF camp. You know. Yeah. Yeah. So —
AS: Could we go down a slightly different track and this would be very familiar to you but perhaps not to many people who’ll listen to this interview. Could you, could you take me through a raid from, from basically getting up, going through the briefing. I know a lot of them are different but if you —
Anonymous: You’re asking a lot.
AS: Ok.
Anonymous: I mean I’m ninety one next month, you know. You’re doing very well. You’re dredging all that [laughs]
AS: Would you like me to stop?
Anonymous: Yeah. Go on. Stop it for a minute. Yeah.
[recording paused]
Anonymous: That was not dealt with. No. No. That’s, that’s not right. There wasn’t any so it didn’t need to be dealt with. Joe was a very good, very good captain and, yeah, he really was. He was, he was quite an impressive bloke. He was, he didn’t go, he didn’t socialise a lot. He would, he would never go to hear the, “American Patrol” in the dance hall, you know. You wouldn’t find him there. But, yeah, he was, he was a good man and he held the team together very well. Yeah. So no. I can’t, I can’t deal with that question very, very much I’m afraid from personal experience.
AS: That’s absolutely, absolutely fine.
Anonymous: Ok. But I mean as far as the sequence goes each, each aircrew category had their own building somewhere on the, you know, their hut. The flight engineer’s hut was down near the dispersals. So you’d go down there in the morning and on the wall there was a list like a league table and and it would say, “Flying tonight,” Or whatever, you know, “Engaged tonight.” And there would be the captain’s name all the way down. And then the last figure on it would, I think from memory, fuel load. You know. Which caused speculation then because they said fuel load, or bomb load, whichever. If the, if it was a lot of petrol and not so much bomb load you knew you were going a long way. That’s right. So, so there’d just be the captain’s name and then briefing would be about, well it would depend on the take-off time really. And you’d all go down to the, to the central building and be briefed. All the crew. 419, everybody went. You know. The whole crew. And you were briefed by the various people. The Met people and the navigational people and one or two others and yes I remember the day of Arnhem. Arnhem was it? Yeah. Arnhem. Joe was, Joe was labelled with the name of ‘fearless Hartshorn’[laughs] Yeah. He carried that label for some time. But they had this tape going across Europe you know. The end of the tape would be the target. And, and then there was one that finished on the, right on the coastline. And I remember the, the briefer saying, ‘Don’t get fooled by that one that finishes at the coastline. It’s not Fearless off on his own again,’ you know, or something like that. And [laughs] but in fact it was, it was the Arnhem flight that was being carried out by the airborne people. And they were just telling us this would be about. You know, there would be a lot of activity down there. And we were doing, we did a diversionary raid further south. I can’t remember when it was but if you know the date of Arnhem I could probably tell you when it was from here. But anyway, yeah so that would and then we’d all troop off and go and have our yellow rubber heel at the, you know [laughs] Or was that when we came back wasn’t it? When we came back. Yeah. That maligns the cooks and butchers of course but it was one of those things that happened in the service isn’t it? Yeah. So we’d then go back to our huts or whatever and get ready in our own ways, you know. Personal ways. Prepare. One thing I don’t know. We were in Nissen huts until we could get a room in the sergeant’s mess which was usually overbooked and you’d get about eight or ten of us in a Nissen hut. And you know what they are don’t you? Nissen huts.
AS: Yes.
Anonymous: I’m sure you do. Yeah. And there was only one. Replacement crews would come in. You know, the NCOs of replacement crews would come in to make up the numbers in the crew. And one of the bravest acts I saw within the service culture was a Roman Catholic Canadian. It might have been a French Canadian who came in with some replacements and came about, I don’t know, late evening. We’d all started settling down. And he kept his light on and he actually knelt by his bed and did his prayers. You know. And it took courage of a great sort I think, you know. He was laying himself open to a lot of leg pulling and so on. Yes. But they didn’t make it back from their first trip. Yes. Sad little story but —
Other: In a group of young men it was a pretty brave act wasn’t it?
Anonymous: Well in that, at that company yeah I think it was so unusual. Nobody, nobody made anything of it you know. Mind you we were a good lot. A decent lot in our hut you know. Yeah. The best hut to be in. Yeah. Ok. Alright. So, there we go. So where are we now Alan?
AS: We were preparing ourselves for, or you were preparing yourselves for, for the op.
Anonymous: Oh yes. Well then you’d gather your stuff. Any lucky omens you’d got you stuck in your top pocket, you know and all that sort of thing. And you’d go down and go to the equipment room and pick up your parachute and, and any other gear you’d got in your locker that you needed to take. And then get carted out in the in the wagons, you know to the dispersals. And there you would wait until you got the word to get in. To load up, so of speak. And that one, that one, this one here — that would have been that stage there. Some of them have got their Mae Wests on haven’t they? Yeah that’s right. So we were ready to that stage, you see. Got their Mae Wests and their parachute harness on. Joe, the pilot was quite different because he had to have a parachute he sat on didn’t he? But the others had them clipped on there. But yeah, so you’d then get the word to get on, load up and then you’d get your signal to join the queue going around the perimeter track and you’d be four or five back from the, what was it? Black or white hut was it? Where the starter was. Anyway —
AS: Runway control van.
Anonymous: Yeah. Run control. That’s right. So then you’d, in due course roll around to the start you know, when you got the signals and do your run up. And get the engines going nicely and when you got the green off you went. And at Middleton St George the main runway ended with quite a valley across it. If that was the runway, that was the runway, there was a valley and on the other side of the valley there was a very nice farmhouse. And during the summer, it was double British summertime don’t forget, you could be quite late and the farmer and his wife and family would all come out and we used to think well that was decent of them to come and see us off, you know. What they were scared of was that we weren’t going to make it off the end [laughs] you know and they were the first in line. Yeah. That was the cynical view of it, you know, but, yes, so that was the sort of thing you know. Then the flight engineer and the pilot or the bomb aimer, sometimes the bomb aimer assisted. Sometimes the flight engineer assisted on following up with the — because you’ve got the throttle and you have the revs you know, haven’t you? You know, so the person assisting the pilot would be the follow up hand on the quadrant that increased the power. You know all about that. And hopefully two thirds of the way down you’d feel the big lift, you know. Yeah. Then you’d stooge around for an hour over the coast. And then when the stream was formed off you’d go, you know. Yeah. And —
AS: Could I just pause you there about, I’m interested in the, in the forming up process.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: Some stations had an assembly point. It sounds like you did too. Over the coast where you climbed to height.
Anonymous: Yeah. I think it was often when there was more than one station. One more airfield you know, involved. Maybe four or five squadrons, you know. And I suppose it was a precautionary thing as much as anything. As strategic. Because what’s the position? You want, say five hundred aircraft bombing a target you know. That’s a lot of aircraft milling around isn’t it? So you’ve got to have some discipline about altitude and longitude and all positions, I think. Yeah. So that was I think functionally necessitated. A functional necessity. Yeah. Yes. And the Window cover as well. You know. The bomb aimer used to hate that job. They were like, you know these Christmas wrappers. Christmas crackers. No. Chains. Paper chains you used to make. Strips of paper about like that but about that size those Windows were and they were silver paper. A little more. And he had a little chute by the side of his position and he had bundles of these all the way up. But he thought it was a very menial job for him to be doing. He wanted me to do it. No [laughs] He never told me I should be doing it but I didn’t volunteer. So yeah. It’s all these little things that make life what it is you know.
AS: So on the way you’d be at least, you know a pair of eyes in the cockpit.
Anonymous: Oh yes.
AS: And also was it also fuel management? Was that your main responsibilities?
Anonymous: That was. Yes. Yes. Yes. I’ll show you a book. A dear friend of mine who died three or four weeks ago gave me and it’s the, it’s a book on the Lancaster and it’s got marvellous pictures of the panels of the — it’s got, it’s got the original requirement of contractors to build this. To build the Lancaster. Yeah. I don’t know where he got it from but he was, he was an enthusiast. A Lancaster enthusiast. And he used to ask me questions. He was a trained, a trained mechanical engineer and he used to ask me questions about the Lancaster that I couldn’t answer [laughs] Typical, you know. Yeah. Because he really examined them right down. Yeah. But I’ll show you that book.
AS: That would be great. And you must have been a Jack of all trades because it’s hydraulics, its pneumatics, it’s electrics. It’s —
Anonymous: Oh yes. What staggered me, I don’t want you to mark it for neatness or anything but that was the sort of thing. This was the, this was the pre — this was the learning about the internal combustion engine to start with. Which was a lesson to me. And then you moved on to a specific aircraft. Your last six or eight weeks of training and you learned everything about that aircraft. And this one was the Halifax Mark 3 with a radial engine with a sleeve valved engine. You know. A very, a very unusual engine and so this is, there’s the engineer’s panel look. Open.
AS: Was that standardised with the Lanc or is that too much to expect?
Anonymous: Oh no, they were. I should think they were in competition really but, for the work but I imagine the language was the same but the, the construction would have been you know the positioning and so on.
AS: So this is what you were saying earlier that suddenly when you go to 419 and you’re on Lancs you have to relearn.
Anonymous: Yes. Who’s that?
Other 2: It’s only me.
Anonymous: Oh is there —
[recording paused]
Anonymous: When the bandit was behind us, ‘Corkscrew. Corkscrew. Corkscrew left. Corkscrew left,’ you know. Get out of the way. You know. And this was to reduce the area that the fighter had to fire at but you all had an observation point for fighters anyway and mine was the [pause] where’s that, is there a — where’s that picture gone? Yeah. The, no, the flight engineer’s position was on the, that’s it on the starboard side. Level with the pilot. But well just a little bit behind that. Just there. And there was a sliding window there and that was with a, with a blip, an observation blip. You know. Bubble in the —
AS: A blister. Yeah.
Anonymous: In the window. Yeah. And that was my, so that I could see. So the flight engineer could see below.
Other 2: A small one for you.
AS: Ok.
Other 2: A slightly larger for you.
AS: Is mum home?
[recording paused]
Anonymous: Yeah. Well, my responsibility was to observe through this what would you call it? Bubble window I suppose, which just stuck out a bit from the fuselage and to see if any aircraft, any bandits as we called them were coming up that way. But why I was really telling you that was, when the, when the chap hit us with that spray from the rear turret up through and through the front the window, I was looking at, out of, disappeared. It disappeared [laughs] It just went. Now, I don’t know if there was a break in his bullet supply or whether it was afterwards. We thought it was the pressure really building up inside the fuselage that blew it out. But, you know, I might have come home without my head. But —
Other: So were you guys strapped in? I mean if the window disappears surely there was quite a high chance that you might too.
Anonymous: Yeah. Well it wasn’t that big a window. It was, well I suppose about that.
Other: Ok.
Anonymous: Like that. And it had this like a pregnant window. And it was to enable you to see under the aircraft. ‘Cause one of their wicked weapons afterwards was the upward firing cannon wasn’t it? Yeah. So there we are. So we lost that and Joe lost part of his window and so did the bomb aimer right down there. So that was a good rake from back to front. He must have thought he’d nailed us, you know. But I mustn’t concentrate just on that one but that was it but it’s the best one. I can’t remember many details. I’ve got so many of them. But, sorry Alan. You said you’d got me to where?
AS: You, you were airborne. That’s one of your hairiest moments. Was there any discussion about going on or going back or just the pilot decides off you go?
Anonymous: I think the [pause] I’ll tell you, I mean I can tell you something from memory which I wouldn’t want put in any, anything subsequently.
[recording paused]
Anonymous: Yeah. I suppose my most vivid recollection of flak and its potential was the raid — I might find it here. It’s towards the end of our lot. Calais. Duisburg. We, it was on the 29th 27th of September. Duisburg. It was a lovely day you know. Lovely autumn day I suppose. And we had, what was the target? Bombing results not observed. Let’s have a — right. There was this thing called the random, not the random flak but the flak they just put on with the searchlight on us, on it, you know. Using the same setting as the searchlights. But then they had, they’d put up, they would put up a thing that was radar controlled. They would produce this cone of [pause] not cone. I don’t mean a cone. A cube. A cube of flak. Bursting flak, you know. If you can imagine that and that was, once they’d sorted out your route and what the target might be then they put this rectangle but in fact it had another dimension and it was a cube of flak. And you knew you’d got to go through that. And the most striking time that personally I experienced was on this Duisburg raid. Predicted flak. That’s what it was called in those days. In target area. Obviously once they’d identified that they’re own explosions of their shells from the ack-ack batteries would be concentrated in the area above the target. Where the bombs were likely to be dropped. Yeah. But [pause] so what did we say? Ten ten I don’t know what that is. Not — results not observed. Ten stroke ten.
AS: Perhaps that’s ten tenths cloud was it?
Anonymous: Oh, you’ve got it actually. Yeah. There must have been a layer of cloud as we were coming out. I don’t remember the clouds. But that, I’m sure that’s what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that was the cloud so it was sort of, it wasn’t an option. There were no options other than go through it, you know. Yeah. And so you’d go through and get rocked about a bit and I mean goodness knows where all their shrapnel went but, you know but it got some of them. I think it was operation number [pause] one of the early ones we were. We were in a stream. I forget where we were going now but anyway suffice it to say we hadn’t a a clue what was around us in the way of friendly aircraft, you know until we saw some flames on our starboard side. Starboard side. Port side. Anyway. Starboard side. And suddenly the flames became all-consuming and we saw it was a Halifax and he just fell away behind us and down. You know. We never knew what had happened to that. What happened to that. But then you get all this illumination. You lose your night vision yourself. So you can’t see anything. So you just hoped that the gunner’s guns aren’t going trail you now. But yeah I sometimes find it difficult to recapture one’s feelings. I mean what was 1944? Fifty six. Sixty one years ago isn’t it? Sixty one years ago. A long time isn’t it? To remember things.
AS: It’s entirely, entirely understandable.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: It is.
Anonymous: But I’m sure it’s all therapeutic. Yes.
Other: But I suspect if you knew you had another mission to do that you didn’t really indulge in too much thought about feelings did you? Because you knew you had to go back.
Anonymous: Well yes.
Other: So —
Anonymous: I think we used to put it on the back burner until we saw our name on the morning mist you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But I [pause] it’s surprising really. You know, you hear stories about people not making it. Well, we’re all different, aren’t we? And there must have been thousands of reasons why people couldn’t cope with it. Yeah. Anyway, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t ever remember being actually frightened. Now, that’s, that’s in no way bragging at all. It doesn’t say anything about me that’s worthy you know. But it’s, I don’t know, I seemed to have some assurance that, well I didn’t think about it really. I mean that doesn’t just say I didn’t feel apprehension because I did. It would be difficult not to wouldn’t it? Yeah. And the actual operation six incident, you know it was all over so quickly. You suddenly come out of it you know. But then you’ve got to get back. I was reading the, some accounts of the dam busting the other day. I think it was Guy Gibson’s. Was it Gibson done that one?
AS: Yes.
Anonymous: It was wasn’t it? And some of the reports of his, of the aircraft that took on that you know. And you can see, well it sort of, it reawakens your sensations or speculations as you’re approaching it. But you try to keep occupied I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. I can’t say more than that Adam. I can’t say.
[recording paused]
Anonymous: Period.
AS: Ok.
Anonymous: And the first thing, I mean we had some army instructions there about map reading. You know, he had a dozen of us and we sat down on the grass. And he gave us a reference and he said, ‘Where’s this reference?’ You know. And of course obviously to the army mind it was where we had our backsides then. You know. ‘We’re sitting on it sergeant,’ you know. That sort of thing. We had to do the usual coupling up with another person and being carted away from the camp about, I don’t know, twenty miles. Something like that. Making your own way back to the camp. So we had that one. We had the good fortune to find a lorry with a friendly driver I think [laughs] Anyway, that was that. And then we had to do the underground bit where you had this, oh about that size had been dug to a depth. I don’t know how deep. I can’t remember now. And then a long, a long tunnel and then coming up the other end. We had to do that. There were no lights there. You just followed the smell in front of you, you know and looked for daylight. So that was about the sum of it. At the time things like going away in the lorry become a challenge of another sort don’t they? You had to outdo your own people [laughs] and do all the things they told you you weren’t allowed. So that was the, it didn’t take I mean the whole Heavy Conversion Unit didn’t take long. I don’t know how long. Maybe a fortnight at the most and we went from there to Middleton then. Yeah. So air to air firing, practice bombing. Yeah. Yeah.
AS: And did you see any escape training films or training films generally prepared for you?
Anonymous: We used to have talks on survival. Yeah. About cooking in the field and so on, you know. But if you, if you get an [unclear] if you catch a hedgehog and cover it with mud and get a good fire going. Bake it. You break the cake off it at the end and all the, all the needles will come out of the hedgehog and you can eat it then. You know. That’s desperation for you.
Other: Lighting a fire might be a bit dodgy.
Anonymous: I don’t think it would catch on here. No. So, yeah that sort of thing we had. Yeah. Quite a number of talks on that. Yeah. Because these are only I mean the logbook is is sort of a structure. That’s all isn’t it? You can’t [pause] flying, bombing an installation. Yeah. There were quite some interesting ones when you read through. It does me good to have to read through this again sometimes. Things we got up to. I’ll tell you one thing we saw when we were on a daylight doing air to air firing or something like that. We were up in the, up in Yorkshire somewhere. Flying over Yorkshire. It was lovely. Another lovely day. Hello dear.
[recording paused]
Anonymous: I can’t remember the purpose for our flight but this brand new looking Halifax suddenly appeared in our, our rear and he overtook us. You know. Overflew us. And I was saying the weather was beautiful. Lovely. And he got ahead of us and we could only assume that he was going to show this damned Lancaster pilot and his crew that the Halifax was just as good. And he flew on. And he started messing about and he stalled. And from about, it couldn’t have been more than two or three thousand pounds he, not pounds, feet, he just fell straight to the moors. No survivors at all. He just stalled, you know. He just tipped it up on its wing tip. Brand new. It looked brand new. So we had no more engagement other than to just mayday the event and fly on. Couldn’t do anything about it. But that, that was a bit of a dampener in our day. Yeah. See these little incidents that just, they’re still there but they’ve just got to be dug out. Yeah. So, so what was the next development now?
AS: Could we talk a little about the emergency landing grounds? What you knew of them. Whether you used them at all.
Anonymous: We knew of them. Yeah. I mean we were diverted twice I think but not for those reasons but because the weather had deteriorated or they’d got it wrong and the raid was off so we were diverted to places like Little Snoring in Lincolnshire. And another one somewhere over on the east coast. But I knew about — what’s the one on the east coast? That’s the big one. That’s the three miler.
AS: There’s Manston. And then Woodbridge in East Anglia.
Anonymous: Oh Woodbridge was the one we were most interested in to know where it was and what it was capable of because [pause] yeah. But we had it clear documented but not used. Yeah. And at Manston was, I’d forgotten about that one. The Battle of Britain must have been useful. I mean it must have been useful at that time, yeah because that’s pretty well on the coast isn’t it? Manston. It is. Yeah.
AS: Yeah. Yeah. I think —
Anonymous: Is Woodbridge still open?
AS: No. I grew up near Woodbridge actually. But it became an American fighter base after the war.
Anonymous: Oh, did it? Yeah.
AS: And it’s now open for the army engineers.
Anonymous: Oh, is it?
AS: It’s called Rock Barracks. The runway’s still there.
Anonymous: Oh is it?
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: Yeah. Yeah. So I can’t, I can’t offer much comment on that other than we knew of them and were glad of them, you know. Glad of the resource being there but fortunately never having to use it. I suppose the only time was the second trip to Stettin that might have involved us going there. I can’t say now can I? Anyway, it was better to get back home. Yeah. I mean we did one, I can’t remember when where we were diverted. And then we did our next op to where we were diverted to. Yeah. You know. Little Snoring. You did that upside down [laughs]
[recording paused]
Anonymous: Look at that. “Cross country. Weather duff.” I don’t, I don’t know if we had to, we took three thousand and fifty minutes. I’m sure we did. “Very moonlight. Good bombing.” Oh dear. Sad isn’t it?
AS: But that was the task.
Anonymous: Middleton St George. “Very moonlit. Good bombing.” Oh dear. Six hours and fifteen minutes. What’s interesting, ops on daylight attack. Siracourt Oh that was a, what was the flying bomb site. Flying bomb sight. There was just a field. You just had a field to bomb and you know if you knocked that one out they moved to the next field. Yeah. Daylight attack on Cannes. Oh yeah. Just forward of Canadian. Oh, that’s the, that’s that one.
AS: Oh the one you got the aiming point photograph.
Anonymous: Yeah. Daylight attack. Was it this one? On Cannes. Just forward of Canadian beach head. “Light flak over target. Good result. Four thirty.” Well we would have. Yeah. They were quite rare you know those. So we were quite happy to get that. What else have we got here? Another one in. I didn’t realise we’d been to Ruhr as many times as this. “Great number of searchlights. Heavy flak. No fighters.” That was a big relief. Flying bomb. We did a number of these bomb installations here. Kiel. See this is supporting the army. And the heavy barrage. Flak over target. Kiel. You know these naval places. Hartshorn, engineer. Stuttgart. What was Stuttgart here? Crikey. Nine hours and ten. That was a long one. I’m grateful to you for making me read it. Read it again. You had your disappointments. Four hours and twenty minutes and we didn’t bomb because it was too cloudy. Yeah.
AS: That would still count as an op would it?
Anonymous: Well it was if you — yes it would. Yeah. The Canadians used the hundred and twenty point system. And they graded the targets as either three points or four points.
AS: I’ve not heard about that.
Anonymous: Yeah. Well that’s how we assumed it was. So if you did the daylight ones over the flying bomb sites would be three points, you know. And the Stettin would be four. I don’t think it ever went above four. And you had to accumulate a hundred and twenty. Or the pilot did if you were a crew. You know. Yeah. So, yeah, that’s what it was. If there was any doubt you used to write the number of points. Stettin. Very heavy flak. Yes. So there it is. I don’t like, I don’t ever, I don’t want to let this go out of my possession you know because I think the children wouldn’t forgive me for that.
AS: Indeed.
Anonymous: From what Gill was saying. Yeah. So, so what more can I answer? You’ve got a picture of him I expect?
AS: Yes. I’ve sat in his office.
Anonymous: Did you?
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: So did the chap — that’s the chap who writes, who wrote books on the Lancaster and well Bomber Command generally I think. He isn’t.
AS: [unclear]
Anonymous: Yes. That one. And he wrote to me and wanted some information so I sent him copies of pretty well, I sent him everything that I’d got and he photocopied it all and he’s written books. I think he must have died because he suddenly stopped writing to me. The other interesting contact I made as a result of John — Joe. Joe Hartshorn was my pilot, you know. He was a great friend. Apparently he’d met him somewhere. One of the air artists. And he got to be very friendly with him and the artist got in touch with me to see if I’d got any photographs. And yes, he gave me a copy. An original copy of one of his big bombing ones. You know. Yeah.
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: I think he’s now married a Polish girl and gone to Poland. So that was interesting.
[recording paused]
Anonymous: The attention that was paid to it until the monuments hit the headlines. You know. In Green Park. Yeah. And there’s been a sudden, the Bomber Command Association I think stirred it all up again. There must have been somebody who found the formula for getting it going. And I think that’s marvellous and I think it’s grown since then and they themselves have been largely responsible for the monument haven’t they? Which has been vandalised a few times I think but, yeah. So it was alright to complain, well not complain. I’m not complaining about what the government could do, or the Air Ministry could do in the early days of the war. They could only use what resources they had. What I’m saying is that the accounts we read of Bomber Command a lot in the war doesn’t always pay a lot of attention to them. It might say, you know eight Blenheims attacked Wilhelmshaven and, but but it doesn’t say a lot about them. But I mean you can’t. I was thinking of something else just now. I mean like the, I mean what about the clasp for Bomber Command on the — I’ve heard it called all sorts, you know. Like a Brownie knitting badge or something you know and that sort of thing. But does it really matter. What’s it for? I mean medals are. It’s alright isn’t it? I mean I think they’ve lost their impact actually because with all due respect to the people that have fought in Afghanistan and so on and Ireland and so on you see young soldiers of about twenty five to thirty and they’ve got about eight campaign medals, you know. But it depends what your take is on these things, you know. Yes. Yeah.
AS: So the, have you got your Bomber Command clasp?
Anonymous: Yes. I got it at Coningsby. The group captain there was a very delightful man and Gill, the one that, our daughter that you went to first she did all the paperwork for us there. Yeah. So I’ve been there and sorry what was the question?
AS: Had you got your clasp? Which you obviously have. Yeah.
Anonymous: Yeah. Well, he wrote and invited us up to come up for the lunch and hear the ladies choir sing and all that sort of thing, you know and I thought it was marvellous. So we, we went up, all five of us. Our two daughters and our son and Vera and me went up. And we had a couple of nights in Grantham. Yeah. And yeah. That was, that was very good. Yeah. And what else was I going to say about Coningsby? Yeah. He was, they were very good to us and I met two or three chaps from Middleton St George. Because it was a Canadian thing you know and there weren’t many of us there who had actually served in a Canadian squadron. So I didn’t notice [unclear] too much you because there were so many people there. I mean there were about eighty or ninety people who, who took the group captain’s offer of re-presenting them with their clasp if he wished them to. So I had already got mine and had it put on my — so I gave it to his person. His right hand. And then when the time came you know we were sitting in numbered rows and when my name was called I went and he pinned, he came around and pinned it on me, you know. That was a bit of service flannel really, you know. But it was rather nice. He was such a nice man the group captain. He made himself known all around the place to the seniors. Apparently the veterans have got quite a good reputation in service you know. Yeah. I mean we got our retired group captain in the village here. And another one who was a, he was a navigator I think so I think he must have come off navigating quite early to get into some other stream. Anyway, the other one was a, used to fly Canberras I think. He was a wingco. And yeah, you know, they always regard with respect anybody who was on Bomber Command. Because they’ve seen the other side haven’t they?
AS: Yeah.
Anonymous: They’ve seen. They’ve probably seen some pretty horrible sites. Crashing on to the home runway.
AS: I think that respect is universal and that underpins really some of what we’re doing at Lincoln really.
Anonymous: Yeah.
AS: Hopefully. Hopefully so.
Anonymous: Yes. How did you become?
AS: Ken, how did you actually become the flight engineer on Hartshorn’s crew?
Anonymous: Now, well it happened because I was the last member of a seven man crew. The six man crew having been formed earlier into one stage of operational proficiency but without a flight engineer. And so when it got to the Heavy Conversion Unit stage the six man crew would select a flight engineer. And whilst I was waiting at a bus stop in Ripon one evening an American brown uniformed flyer came up to me and invited me to be their flight engineer. Apparently he was an American who’d joined the RCAF originally but was now having to do a tour with the RCAF as a recompense presumably. Yeah. Something like that. Is that enough?
AS: That’s great. And did you instantly accept or did you think?
Anonymous: Oh, I said yes. Of course. I think it was getting a bit short because I think some of them already knew each other you know. But I couldn’t have made a better choice.
AS: Excellent.
Anonymous: Pure luck. Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with an Anonymous Interviewee (An00086)
Creator
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Adam Sutch
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAn00086-150722
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Pending review
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01:32:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Description
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This interviewee was working at Chatham dockyard before he was accepted by the RAF as a mechanic. He then remustered as a flight engineer which fulfilled his hopes to be accepted as aircrew. While waiting for a place on the training course at St Athan he did maintenance work on Spitfires for 222 Squadron at RAF Hornchurch. At his Operational Training Unit the crew had the unfortunate of experience of crashing the command officer’s aircraft. The crew were posted to 419 Squadron at RAF Middleton St George. On one operation there was a fire in the engine which they managed to extinguish but while undertaking a manoeuvre on the flight home the engine again caught fire. Luckily they were again able to extinguish the fire. On another operation they were attacked by a night fighter and were raked from one end of the aircraft to the other but luckily were able to fly home despite the damage. However, the navigator was injured and was repatriated home. On a training flight over England a Halifax overtook them and apparently wanted to engage in a friendly way but tragically it stalled and the aircraft plunged to the earth with the loss of the lives of all on board.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Durham (County)
Germany--Duisburg
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1944
222 Squadron
419 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
coping mechanism
crash
evacuation
faith
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Lancaster
memorial
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Hornchurch
RAF Middleton St George
RAF St Athan
searchlight
Spitfire
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46474/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v670002.mp3
dc330a19486127faee58285311c26dbe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Interviewer: I’m with Bertie Salvage in his home in Stamford.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And Bertie served a good long time in the Air Force.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And so, to start. I understand Bertie that your first encounter with the RAF was when you joined up. Was it 1939?
BS: 1939. On October the 6th 1939. And —
Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, you know, did you that was at the beginning of the Second World War.
BS: Well, it was. The war had broken out early September and it was a Sunday afternoon and we were home and the air raid siren went off for the first time. We were all sitting down to Sunday dinner in Southend on Sea where I —
Interviewer: This is the famous first day of the war.
BS: Yes, it was. The first day of the war. Then of course we all rushed outside. Of course nothing happened, you know. It was, it was just a false alarm. But anyway, I had received notification that I had passed the RAF exam as an aircraft apprentice to go to Cranwell and so I then received information in early September that I was to report to Cranwell on the 6th of October 1939. So this was, this duly happened. I went to Cranwell. I was inducted as an aircraft apprentice at RAF Cranwell. The instrument maker apprentices and the wires and electrical mechanic apprentices were being trained at Cranwell at the time. The other trades were being trained at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire. So they were the two schools really and also some at Cosford. They were boy entrants. Anway, so it was quite a fierce trades really from the comforts of home to the, to the spartan conditions of the RAF as it then was in 1939. We were in huge barrack blocks at Cranwell where they had forty to a room you know. Iron bedsteads left over from the Great War I think [laughs] and very very far, very strong discipline you know. Very firm discipline which it had to be for young boys I suppose just joining the Air Force but I settled down and we did basic training on the square. Just for a few weeks you know. Two or three weeks basic training and drill and all that sort of thing. Learned to keep ourselves neat and tidy, our uniforms. To keep the barrack rooms clean and everything else. And of course, it was very very tough the discipline but you know some, in some respects you appreciated it. I enjoyed it really. Well, then we settled in on our technical training. We used to march down to the workshops every day at Cranwell and this went on and on and the, the one thing I do remember is that going over into 1940 just about the time of just before Dunkirk when the Germans had invaded the low countries we used to march to the workshops every day and during that early period when the Germans were still invading France they used to play patriotic music over the tannoy system as we were marching to work. Such things as, “We’re Going to Hang out the Washing on the Siegfried Line.” [laughs] And of course that didn’t ever happen. Things like that you know. It was quite an amazing time to go through really at that period leading up to Dunkirk. Anyway, so the training went on. I found it very interesting. The technical training. All the aircraft. The aircraft electrical instrument systems and all that you know and also quite a lot of electrical information. Electrical instruction as well because a lot of instruments were, you know operated by electricity or electrical systems and you know so that went on sort of quite happily. And then in 1940 around about August time the instrument maker schools was moved out to Halton with the apprentices of the other trades. RAF Halton. It was a wonderful change because Halton is a lovely part of the country you know in Buckinghamshire whereas Cranwell was —
Interviewer: Flat.
BS: We didn’t like it very much up there. Dismal sort of area there. So we got to Halton and but, but in the interim period sort of you know we had a month’s leave actually. Four weeks leave in the changeover between going from Cranwell to Halton and I went home to Southend on Sea and I watched lots of the Battle of Britain going on with all the aerodrome above us coming up the Thames Estuary and we had a grandstand view really, Southend unfortunately.
Interviewer: And what was the feeling like in the country at that time?
BS: Very patriotic. Very patriotic. Yeah.
Interviewer: And was there a, you know a real fear of invasion at that stage?
BS: Well, there was a fear of, well there was but somehow we used to have the feeling it can’t happen to us. You know that sort of British feeling that —
Interviewer: Stiff upper lip and all that.
BS: Stiff upper lip and all that. Oh yes. There was the fear but it was, it was a defiance really. No one is bloody going to invade us sort of thing, you know. But of course, we were right on the, down at Southend where my old home was that was right on the sort of, you know if they had invaded it would be one of the first places that they would come in through I would have thought.
Interviewer: What was the news reporting? Was it, was, did you hear what was going on?
BS: Oh yes. Oh, the news reporting was very good. We, we knew all the time what was going on. I saw quite a few battles when I was, that month I was home. I saw quite a few aerial dogfights you know but one minute they were there and then they were gone you know. It was that —
Interviewer: Very fleeting.
BS: Very fleeting you know. Basically your question. I went through. I went and got in to the autumn of 1940 when they started the bombing on London. We used to get home occasionally on a forty eight hour pass. I went through London, through a couple of Blitzes you know and quite often I had to take shelter in the deep air raid, deep underground stations that they’d allocated to be air raids sort of shelters for people. So I experienced that and there were terrible scenes I saw you know before going on to Halton. So, that was, that was something to remember really, you know. So anyway, we, we continued our training at Halton which was, you know, very good. And then I actually because of the war they forced short the apprentice —
Interviewer: Training.
BS: Training from three years to well, less than two years.
Interviewer: Yes, I was going to say I was surprised.
BS: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: That you were —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: That you spend time in training.
BS: Yes. So, I passed, I passed out actually in July 1941 and I wasn’t eighteen. I was still only seventeen. I passed out and our training wasn’t complete but they considered we had been trained sufficiently to be able to take part. We’d learn more as we went along.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Having joined a squadron.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You see.
Interviewer: Learning on the job.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So, nineteen, I was in the, when I was left Halton I was posted to RAF Marham in Norfolk to 218 Squadron. There were two squadrons there. The Wellington squadron. Wellingtons. 115 and 218 but Wellingtons. Basically, Wellington bombers and I always remember in the train going from, up from Halton to, to Marham it was a lovely sunny day in July we heard for the first time the subject about the Russians. The Germans invading Russia. That was the first time we had heard that Russia had come into the war you see. And so we got to, got to Marham and of course straightway I was pitchforked on to the squadron and it was very interesting you know being inducted into servicing the Wellingtons. We used to have to also apart from looking after all the instrument systems, instrument repairs and replacement we had also responsibility for the navigation system as well you know because it was astral navigation in those days you know and also the oxygen system. So we had to, in those days you had to physically change the oxygen bottles after every trip, you know. Quite a lot of bottles too. That was quite a job. So that’s one of my little jobs I had to do. But one of the funny things was that the aircraft apart from dropping bombs they used to drop leaflets over Germany. I still have a sample. And also fake ration cards so the Germans would probably pick up these fake ration cards to help deplete the German rations you see. I’ve still got one of those somewhere. Anyway, so that was that but the basic thing I’ll always remember is that of course in those days bombing was, at the time we thought it was very effective but it was not very effective. There was an awful lot of missed targets.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: An awful lot of mixed targets.
Interviewer: Area bombing. Yeah.
BS: That’s right, and but the sad thing was you know the aircrew used to come out and used to get the captains of a bomber was only about nineteen or twenty you know. The responsibility that the lads took on then in those days was quite, it really was quite [pause] but I thinking back on it now I hardly ever saw any sign of fear. They were laughing and joking. They used to wee on the wheels for good luck and things like that you know. And the old air gunners would let off the guns into the night sky just to check on them you know in the turrets. You know and, but they always seemed to set off in a very good mood. But of course, when they didn’t come back or came back badly damaged you know often with blood. On one occasion I remember the, one came back and the rear turret was just a mass of blood and gore.
Interviewer: Yes, I heard somebody else says that.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And the damage that the, that the Wellington could take with geodetic construction was quite amazing really. Old Barnes Wallis had designed them very well indeed you know. And then once, I’d been there a few weeks when the film people came to take a, they made a film called, “One of Our Aircraft is missing.” And they came to shoot at the early stages of the aircraft taking off from our, they came around to our dispersal and they took photos of us ground crew waving to the aircraft as they took off in to the night sky on their bombing missions.
Interviewer: Did they? So that was just done for the camera was it?
BS: that was done for the camera really you know. And I did see and I did have a copy afterwards that I actually saw the back of me and three others just waving like mad to the aircraft that took off into the night sky. But it was a very very very poignant really. They take off into the dusk you know. Disappear. Of course, all grass airfields then. There was no runways. No runways. They were all grass airfields. And so which was quite an embarrassment really later on because in the Autumn of 1941 we converted to Stirlings. We were the second squadron to be, I’ll just get this for you [pause] to be converted to, sorry to be converted to Stirlings.
Interviewer: Oh, I think I’ve seen this photograph before. Yes.
BS: Yes. It’s a special. There was only a few copies made.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: That’s one of the few.
Interviewer: A nice looking aeroplane.
BS: Yes. But very heavy. Very big. Much bigger than the Lanc you know. They carried a bigger bomb load. But of course, the trouble with the Stirling was that the Hercules engines didn’t have the power really to get them over the Alps and they had to struggle like hell to get over to bomb Northern Italy as they used to go and bomb Turin quite a lot. But they used to struggle to get over the Alps and I think they realised that they were built like a tank. Like a fortress inside. But they just didn’t have the power really and I think actually when it came into about 1943 they were actually taken off full line bombing and became towers for the gliders and things like that.
Interviewer: It's a shame because everybody now looks back and thinks —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: The Lancaster was the only bomber.
BS: Oh no. No. The Stirling was she was ever she was very good in every respect bar the fact she was underpowered. But I’ve flown in a Stirling and I’ve flown, I had to get every chance I could. Air testing, you know. Those I used to fly. I’ve flown I a Stirling. I’ve flown quite a few times in Wellingtons. You know, on the air tests. I used to like to sit in the rear turrets. Quite fun. And you know so I got one for experience really and the, and another snag with the Stirling was that it was the first aircraft that ever had the electrical undercarriage. And old DC motors they requires three thick cables to really get the power through and it was quite a thing to see a Stirling with one wheel collapsed and like this on the airfield. Like you know and had to jack them up to —
Interviewer: I wonder why they went for electric motors rather than —
BS: I don’t know.
Interviewer: Metal damage to cope with if the hydraulics had been —
BS: I think so. I think it was an experiment really you know. They were coming in to a new era and you know so, you know I think they—
Interviewer: A bit embarrassing if you have a generator failure.
BS: Oh yes. And of course, they realised being as these were such big heavy aircraft that the grass airfield was not very good at all. You know, they used to —
Interviewer: They used to get waterlogged, didn’t they?
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Some of these old grassed airfields.
BS: Yeah. So soon after that that, I left the country by then that they decided to build runways you see. So, you know I, people say to me oh there’s the lady who I’m very good friends with at the moment. She’s quite a bit younger than me but if I talk about the olden days she doesn’t want to know. ‘Oh, don’t talk about the past.’ The past. But you get to my age you think about it. It’s life to you, you know what I mean?
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: My memory is still so fantastically good really, you know. Way back to those days it’s as clear as a bell really.
Interviewer: And didn’t you tell me that you remember Trenchard coming?
BS: Oh sorry. Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: He lived up to his Boom Trenchard.
BS: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Trenchard. Big man.
BS: When the, I hadn’t been at Marham very long, perhaps, are we still oh dear. I hadn’t been at Marham very long when it was a bit of a miserable sort of day and of course we were working in the hangars and they used to say, ‘Come on. Get outside.’ You know. Assembled on the tarmac outside the hangars because there’s going to be someone giving a talk. So we went outside and stood in a big sort of circle. And suddenly this figure appeared and he was introduced as to Lord Trenchard you see and there he was in his uniform and his rather flat sort of hat. It wasn’t, a bit of a squashed looking hat on his head and he gave us a pep talk you see about how, what a wonderful job we were doing. To keep up, lads, you know. You know, sort of you know and we’ve got the Germans on the run [laughs] you know [laughs] We bloody well hadn’t at that time.
Interviewer: So you took it with a pinch of salt.
BS: Oh yes. I stood quite close to him actually. He had a moustache if I remember rightly.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: But we weren’t told of course at the time it hadn’t really perhaps got around to me by then but we were told that he was the father of the Royal Air Force.
Interviewer: Absolutely.
BS: So it was a privilege to remember that, you see.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And the thing that they say about Trenchard was that when forming the Air Force one of the things he really concentrated on was very good training.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: To make sure not just the air crew but —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: To make sure that the ground crew had got all the skills.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Which is what, which is quite interesting that you —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did spend quite a good time in training even though it was in the Second World War.
BS: Oh absolutely. Oh yes. And something else I was going to say. I’ve forgotten. Oh, dear its gone from me.
Interviewer: And when the Air Force —
BS: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. He was, was the founder of the Aircraft Apprentice Scheme in 1923. He started it all up at Halton and it’s a wonderful training you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: As a boy of sixteen, just sixteen to be pitchforked from home into that, you know. The sheer discipline and we learned to look after ourselves. Do our own —
Interviewer: Sewing.
BS: Sewing and —
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And keeping our barrack rooms clean. Kit inspection once a week. Everything had to be absolutely spot on, you know. The officer used to come around with the —
Interviewer: And the aircraft apprentices have got a very good reunion and —
BS: Oh well, yes. The Halton Apprentices Association. In fact, I’ve got a book there written by an air vice marshall. Ex-aircraft apprentice who used to, we used to see him actually in our reunions down at Halton and it’s about the life of an aircraft apprentice. I’ll get it out some time and show you.
Interviewer: And the good thing is —
BS: I’ll look it up.
Interviewer: And the interesting thing is how many formal aircraft apprentices made air rank —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Very senior ranks.
BS: They did. They did. Apart from the technical training which you of course enlarged. I mean, by the time I finished at the RAF I was very highly qualified. Instruments, electronically and everything else. You know, all the courses I went on and all that work on the V bombers. So, you know, it was, it was the sheer sort of discipline that that regulated your life and you know —
Interviewer: A good start.
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: A good start. And did you say you’d, I think you just said you were just saying that you were moving on from Marham. How long did you spend there?
BS: So I was at Marham from July ‘til March ’41.
Interviewer: And then what was next?
BS: Then what happened then was I’ll tell you a funny little story. Can I just recap a bit but when, when I passed out from Halton and I went to Marham and when I went home of course we used to get forty eight passes at any time. Not just at weekends. In the middle of the week or any time. Forty eight hour pass.
Interviewer: When you could be spared.
BS: When you could be spared.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And my father who was a very very patriotic man. My father served right through the first war in the Royal Artillery, through all the modern hell of Passchendaele. You couldn’t meet a more patriotic man. King and country man everything. The fact I went in the the Air Force absolutely wonderful to him you know. Anyway, I went home on my first leave you see. And , ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘Where’s your propellers on your arms?’ He thought I was going to be a leading aircraftsman straight away. Of course, I passed out as AC1 not AC2 [laughs] you see. I didn’t get quite the response then, you know. So, so that was that. So that was a funny story really going back. Yes, so what happened then was in March, early March ’42 I was posted overseas. You never knew where you were going abroad in the wartime. You never knew where you were going but overseas. So I went home on embarkation leave for a fortnight. When I got home my mother said, Southend on Sea, my mother said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘Dad’s in hospital, ill. Oh, he’s got congestion of the lungs.’ So I went down to see him. He was very poorly in hospital at Rochford in Essex and anyway within a couple of days he had died.
Interviewer: Oh, that’s —
BS: While I was on embarkation leave. Of course, I had two sisters at home and so that was a blow. So I got a weeks extension you know for his funeral. We buried him down in, we got him buried. And so I I left home, my mother and sisters and went back to Marham to clear and went to [pause] first of all we went, I was sent up to Blackpool. Blackpool was what you called a personnel distribution centre for people going over. PDC they called it. And —
Interviewer: Was that Squire’s Gate?
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: Actually at Blackpool.
BS: That was, we were in civvy billets in Bloomfield Road opposite the football ground. Well they were all civvy billets in those days you see.
Interviewer: Right.
BS: And the nice house, a very nice house we were in. Anyway, we were there for a fortnight and in that time we were all kitted out for overseas. You had an idea perhaps where you were going in those days the sort of kit you got really and we were kitted out at Marks and Spencer’s and Woolworths were military kitting out places you see.
Interviewer: Fantastic.
BS: So we had to barter around Blackpool from one to the other being kitted out and straightaway we knew we weren’t going to India because we didn’t get a pith helmet. The pith helmet. They had the pith helmets to go into India you see. We had the old fashioned [taupes?] that they used in the sort of semi-tropical countries you know like Africa and places like that. So I had a [taupe?] I had all the rest of the khaki drill issued and then we set off. After a fortnight we were what they called drafts in those days. Then we set off by train. Took us all day in the train. Of course, no sort, they had no sort of corridor trains. They were all bloody single compartments.
Interviewer: Separate compartments. Yeah.
BS: And we finished up. Where the hell are we going to? We finished up it turned out in Avonmouth in Bristol.
Interviewer: And you still don’t know where you’re going.
BS: No. Not a clue. Not a clue. No. No. They wouldn’t tell you. So we’d not a clue. We got to Avonmouth. We offloaded from the train at the dockside and there was this big old grey steamer there for troops. She had been called the Island Princess. She had been a Argentine meat boat apparently which had been converted to a trooper. Troop carrier. So we staggered up the gangplank. Don’t know how I staggered up with kit bags. Full blooming kitted on. Your [taupe] Great coat. All the rest of our equipment. We staggered up the gangplank on to the, and straight down the gangways right down to a lower deck. One of the holds had been converted into a troop deck you see. Got down there and we were the last line of portholes going down. The Army were underneath. They didn’t have any portholes. We had the Army on board as well. And there were two hundred of us on the troop deck and we were all sleeping on hammocks and we had sort of mess tables going from the centre out to the sides of the ship you see where we allocated so many to a mess table each you see. About I don’t know about ten or twelve. Something like that. And hammocks had to be stowed in special stowage and your ordinary kit was on racks above you. So, so that was something getting used to and when we came had to sleep at night we we hung our hammocks up you know and when we all slung our hammocks we were sort of more or less touching one another you know. You always had to sleep head to toe for obvious reasons and if anybody was seasick in the night God it was hell.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Bloody awful.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: You can imagine.
Interviewer: I don’t want to contemplate it. I did I did three years in the Navy and —
BS: Oh, did you?
Interviewer: I don’t want to contemplate what it could have been like.
BS: So, so anyway so that was the old troopship and, but I got used it. Actually, I enjoyed it. Anyway, we sailed out in the and we sailed out to Greenock, picked up the rest of the convoy at Greenock and we stayed there overnight and —
Interviewer: But when the ship sailed did you still not know where the ship was going?
BS: No. Not a clue. We hadn’t got a clue. No.
Interviewer: That’s incredible.
BS: Well, I hadn’t got a clue and we sailed up the Irish Sea to Greenock and there we picked up the rest of the convoy. We sailed next day. There was ships from horizon to horizon.
Interviewer: So also and when was this?
BS: This was the end of March ’42. The height of the U-boat war.
Interviewer: Wow.
BS: The height of the U-boat war and, and there were sort of Naval vessels sort of you know going around all the time but of course the convoy had to go to the speed of the slowest ship. Eight knots. That was, that was the and we were kept one in front and one behind, you know, liners. Troopers. All grey and horizon to horizon and it was just ships everywhere. And of course, I never even gave a thought to blooming U-boats. I can remember standing on the bloody bow in the heaving North Atlantic enjoying it. Isn’t this wonderful. I never gave a thought we could bloody well be torpedoed at any time, you know. Its youth you see. Nothing can happen to me.
Interviewer: No.
BS: So anyway, so we kept going day after day after day and getting colder and colder. We were going, we thought we were going a bit north. Anyway, eventually we, we changed course and fortunately you know we saw a couple of Condors came over but, but no we didn’t, nobody was attacked at that time. Or at least after we changed direction of course I knew we were going south and eventually after about a couple of weeks or more, two and a half weeks we landed up in Freetown in Sierra Leone and we anchored there for a couple of days. And I can remember the old [unclear] coming alongside with the natives in them wanting to sell —
Interviewer: Sell things. Yeah.
BS: Including their sister ships [laughs] but rain. I’ve never known rain like it in my life. Anyway, we, we set sail again. By this time the convoy was somewhat spoiled. The faster ships they let go ahead at this point you see. But anyway, we kept, we sailed on and on and on. Eventually we must have, well I still had no idea where we were going. No idea at all, you know what was happening. Where we were going. So we got down to the South of Africa. We’re going around the Cape and suddenly we were sitting down to an evening meal down on the mess decks and suddenly bang and the whole ship shuddered like hell. So the boat sirens, alarms went so we, there wasn’t panic but we went up several ladders to the upper, to the boat decks and we stood at our boat stations. There was the Acali raft station on the bloody boat. We had an Acali raft station. And the ship just, just over there was going down. You know, she was the Naval vessel had turned back and was going towards it. So we stayed, we stayed at boat stations for what must have been well over an hour. We went down again and just sat down again when another bang went up and another ship had been hit. You know sort of further away. So, and then we were told over the tannoy that we’d actually arrived into an enemy minefield laid by the Japanese ocean going submarines and not to say anything about it. Right. Well, the next day we had these little leaflets handed out to us about conditions sort of in South Africa and we were told, our draft were told that we were going to be staying in South Africa you see. Well, you know I was absolutely over the moon about this because my eldest sister in ’39, had emigrated to South Africa and so I thought at least there. Only at the last moment two days after that we docked in Durban. And the wonderful thing is I don’t know if you’ve been told about this but all the convoys used to dock in Durban in those days. They were met by a lady on the end of the moles singing and she used, as the troop ships moved in towards the harbour she’d stand on the end of the mole, this lady in a long white dress and she was singing beautifully to all the ships as they came in. She did this every time a convoy came in to Durban during the war. Singing. Beautiful singing. And we docked and we were offloaded and we were taken to a transit camp. You see what happened was that the, it was a rest camp really and all the troops going up to North Africa you know RAF and Army used to —
Interviewer: Stop there.
BS: Have a week or a fortnights rest in Durban. At Clairwood before going out to North Africa you see. The campaign there. But we were only there for about a week because we were staying in South Africa and I was told my post would be to a place called Port Alfred down in the Cape, Eastern Cape, near Port Elizabeth. And what had happened was the Empire Training Scheme. They trained all the aircrew in South Africa, Rhodesia, America.
Interviewer: Canada.
BS: And Canada. Right. So I was posted there and of course the aircraft were Ansons and Oxfords and Old Fairey Battles.
[pause]
BS: So of course, I was over the moon because I mean and the first the thing is to go back when we were in Durban. The residents of Durban were so patriotic they used to talk about home as England not South Africa.
Interviewer: Really?
BS: All English speaking and English-speaking South Africans and every evening outside Clairwood camp there would be lines and lines of cars of Durban residents lining to take the troops to their homes to give them a —
Interviewer: Dinner.
BS: Meal.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And look after them and give them a good time. I remember the first night or second night we were there I was, went out with my friend intending to go in to Durban just to see things and a car pulled up just as we and we were, ‘Come on lads.’ You know. ‘Would you like to come home with us?’ So we said, ‘Yes, please.’ He turned out to be the chief education officer for Durban and we went to his beautiful house. They had three lovely daughters and of course it was, and after war torn England it was a paradise coming there. It was. It was. It was peacetime. It was beautiful living conditions you know.
Interviewer: So life was beginning to look up.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: At this stage.
BS: And because a lot of the chaps had perhaps come from poor homes. It must have been quite an eye opener going to some of these houses you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Being looked after like that. You know it really must have been quite fantastic. So anyway, so and of course all the time I was in South Africa I kept on very good friendly terms with the family and I used to go up there sometimes on leave. Anyway, I got to Port Alfred and with the, I was with the Instrument Section and we had, you know the, the Ansons and Oxfords were used for navigator training and bomb aimer training you know. And air gunner training also and the Fairey Battles were used for target towing. And could you [laughs] I don’t really know much about the old Fairey Battle but they lost —
Interviewer: I’ve seen, I’ve seen photographs.
BS: They’d lost an awful lot in France.
Interviewer: And they were retired from active service pretty quickly weren’t they?
BS: Oh, they lost a lot in France. Anyways, you know how you take your life in your hands as a young boy I would fly in anything because I loved flying you see and I remember having a couple of flights in Fairey Battles and oh God, spewing glycol and petrol over the ruddy place you know. It was [laughs].
Interviewer: And was the flying school run by Airwork’s?
BS: No.
Interviewer: Or was it run —
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: By the RAF?
BS: No, it was run by the either the South African Air Force and the RAF between them. So on, on the camps you see there were quite a few camps out there they were, we were a mixture of South African Air Force and RAF. But the RAF were the main trainers. Do you know what I mean? They were the main experienced people. The South African Air Force were there as sort of because this was South Africa and our CO was a colonel, South African colonel you see. So that was fine. Ok. And so it, it was a lovely mixture really but the Air Force were the main operators as you might say. The RAF. Port Alfred and 43 Air School and —
Interviewer: And as you say their duty —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was to push out all the air crews.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: To go back to Europe.
BS: Oh yes. That’s they used to come over and they would be there for quite a few weeks and of course it’s a wonderful atmosphere to train them in in peacetime.
Interviewer: Well, that’s why they set these schools up.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: A — get them away from the war and B —
BS: Yes, that’s right.
Interviewer: In good weather conditions.
BS: That’s right. I mean the flying or navigating was perfect really and of course it was all astra navigation in those days. I mean you think back to life over here during the bombing period of those years. I mean that’s why the Americans didn’t do it up because they weren’t trained in astra navigation like our chaps were you see. You know night navigation. That’s why they took on all the —
Interviewer: That was the day raids.
BS: Day. Day bombing you see. So and I often used to go up you know on these trips with them. You know, I used to love to fly as much as I could.
Interviewer: And was there a lot of work to be done repairing the aircraft?
BS: Oh lord, yes. I mean you know it’s all the time. I mean and the wonderful thing is despite the fact that there was a war on and losses in shipping through U-boat activity and that sort of thing we never went short of spares. You know, it’s marvellous really.
Interviewer: So somebody back in England must have been doing their job to get all the spares sent out.
BS: Oh, the production in this country was absolutely wonderful when you think of it during the war. All firms like, you know like little engineering firms, workshops used to have contracts for for making spares and things like that you see. The, the organisation was absolutely fantastic, you know.
Interviewer: So and going back to Trenchard again.
BS: Oh, that’s right.
Interviewer: He set the, he set the Air Force up and made sure everybody was trained.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: So when it needed to work it could.
BS: Well, when you come back to it in 1934 they set up the five year plan. They built all those airfields like Cottesmore, Luffenham, Wittering, eventually Scampton all built on the same plan. You go to any station and they were all exactly the same virtually.
Interviewer: Similar. Similar layouts.
BS: Oh yes. H blocks and the officer’s mess. Sergeant’s Messes. Pretty well pretty much the same. This is and if it hadn’t been for that five year plan we’d have been the hell’s way in ‘39 when the war broke out.
Interviewer: How long did you get to stay in South Africa then?
BS: So anyway, so I stayed in South Africa until July ’45.
Interviewer: Oh, so you —
BS: I was there for over three years.
Interviewer: You were there for three years.
BS: Yeah. So —
Interviewer: Was that normal for for people to spend that much time there?
BS: Yes. Well, you couldn’t get home. There was no, there was no time limit to a tour in those days.
Interviewer: And presumably they wanted to cut down on the amount of troop transports.
BS: That’s right. That’s right.
Interviewer: And so it made sense to keep you there for a good long time.
BS: That’s right. I came back when the European war was over. So all the time I was out there I was very fortunate because my sister was living in Johannesburg and so the first leave I got I went up and stayed with her. Wonderful for me really. And of course, the other fellas didn’t have that. And I had some wonderful leaves and went all over the country and my sister’s husband he was working in the gold mines of Johannesburg. He joined the South African Air Force and he went up to North Africa. To a campaign up there against Rommel you see. The South African Air Force and my sister she, because her husband had gone up there she took the chance. She came down to Port Alfred and lived in the local hotel there. So —
Interviewer: Your sister on [unclear] —
BS: Yes [laughs] it was a most unusual situation really but it just so happened. It was luck.
Interviewer: You’ve got to make these things work for you haven’t you?
BS: But that’s right. Just luck. So that was that. Then in, as I say in —
Interviewer: Then again when you were serving there in the, in the sort of towards the end of the Second World War was it obvious that you heard about D-Day presumably.
BS: Oh, oh yes.
Interviewer: You heard about how the war was going.
BS: Yes. Yes. Oh yes. About [pause] what was it? In July? About January ’45 I was posted up to Pretoria to Robert’s Heights, Voortrekkerhoogte because that was Afrikaner speaking. Have you been to South Africa?
Interviewer: No. Not yet.
BS: Oh, you’ll have to go.
Interviewer: It’s on my list of places to go.
BS: Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to go back again on this scheme that they’re running for veterans to go back.
Interviewer: Oh brilliant.
BS: And visit. Visit where with a grant from the lottery.
Interviewer: Great.
BS: So if I had somebody who would go with me I’d love to go back. Anyway, so I was posted up to Pretoria to a big air depot there. We were, we were sort of a big where they used to service all the aircraft instruments. They’d come in that were US you know, unserviceable. So by this time I’d been promoted to corporal.
Interviewer: Was that a big jump up to corporal?
BS: Yeah, well —
Interviewer: As in responsibility?
BS: Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean you know you know I thought it was anyway. You know.
Interviewer: Well, they always say corporal, the two ranks in the Air Force that are most important are the corporal and the warrant officer.
BS: Oh yes. Well, corporal because you, yes, oh yes. Yes. It was fine. Yes. And so, and then as I say in July ’45 or when, when yes we did know the war was coming to an end of course and then because it was so down, I always remember VE Day out there. We all paraded on the parade ground and were given a formal talk by the station commander there. He was another South African of course and immediately of course we were given the day off you see. So my friend and I we decided to go into Johannesburg. No. Into, into, that’s right into Pretoria itself and we were picked up by a South African colonel going in his car. Of course, we used to hitch hike all over. He took us to his house. I had a lovely time. We got as drunk as hell you know [laughs] We didn’t bloody well bother. Had a wonderful time. So that was how I spent VE Day really. I got back to Pretoria and then of course we were hanging about really for a week or two still doing our jobs of course because aircraft things still had to be serviced and looked after. And then we were posted. So July, at the end of June we were told, you know we were due to go home so we, we were taken down to Cape Town. Went down by train from Johannesburg on the, on the what do they call the wonderful train? The Blue Train they call it.
Interviewer: Blue Train. Yeah.
BS: Which went right down through Kimberley and the beautiful South African landscape down to Cape Town and we were there for about ten days or so in transit to Cape Town and of course it was lovely because Cape Town is a lovely area you know altogether. A beautiful place. And then we embarked on the Alcantara. A ship. A troop ship. Still the same conditions as the one I went out on really.
Interviewer: But this time no U-boats shooting at you.
BS: No. No. No U-boats but I’ll tell you what as soon as we sailed out from Cape Town they operated the gassing system which kept, gave you warnings of submarines. Oh, magnetic mines. That’s what they —
Interviewer: Magnetic, gassing for magnetic mines.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And then Aztec obviously —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: For detecting submarines.
BS: And I always remember that because we had it on the way out there. They have these what do they call the machine guns? The Oerlikons. They used to practice those every day and oh the noise they made.
Interviewer: This is after VE Day.
BS: Oh yeah. Well, of course I mean you know I mean things were still the same. I mean things hadn’t altered. It took time to. Of course, we sailed back in just over two and a half weeks. Nearly three weeks. So it was a much quicker easier time than —
Interviewer: And when you left South Africa did you know your time in the Air Force was coming to an end or was it?
BS: No. No. Because I was a regular.
Interviewer: You joined up as a regular.
BS: Oh, I was in for twelve years.
Interviewer: Ok. So, so when you signed up in 1939 you knew you were in for twelve years.
BS: [unclear] Oh that’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: So presumably a lot of people that were with you were conscripted.
BS: Well, obviously, yes. You had conscripted, you had a release, demob number they called it. And the lower the demob number the older you were you know.
Interviewer: The quicker they were posted to —
BS: The quicker you were out. But they never started demobbing until about August really. I mean this is what I gather the film on TV, one of these Foyles War things a guy came back from North Africa. He was out. Well, he wouldn’t have been out just like that. He’d have waited weeks you know. Things like that you notice.
Interviewer: Well looking at it the demob procedure was very well done.
BS: It was very well done. Everything was so organised believe me and I mean even the demob suits. I mean the lovely beautiful material. They were wonderful material. Shirts, all the ties.
Interviewer: A pair of shoes.
BS: Coat, hat, shoes. Everything.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I mean —
Interviewer: And a suitcase was it?
BS: And a suitcase.
Interviewer: And a suitcase.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So anyway, so we got, oh yeah it was a very very pleasurable voyage. Actually, I enjoyed troopship life because you know funnily enough just to go back a bit going out to South Africa was where I learned to play chess and bridge on the deck for days on end. In the afternoon you were quite free and you’d sit about on deck you know and play cards or [pause] so I know quite a few games like that and you know so, oh I thought it was tough, spartan conditions. You know the food was very spartan and and once you got over the morning with boat drill and all that sort of thing. Of course, you know it’s, it was [pause] anyway so we got back through to Liverpool and, oh yes I’m sure it was Liverpool we docked at. And then of course we were sent our demob disembarkation leave and I went back down to Southend to my home.
Interviewer: And you’d been away —
BS: To my mum.
Interviewer: And you’d been away for a good long time then.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: When you —
BS: Yeah. Can I go back a little bit?
Interviewer: Of course you can.
BS: My two sisters at home who had left home the younger one she joined the Wrens and she was actually stationed down in the tunnels at Dover. They had tunnels under the castle which they had and she was a wireless operator there and she was involved in all that recording all the traffic on the Channel. Which they did you know with the German traffic and everything else. She was involved in that. My other sister who’d been a dressmaker joined the RAF and became a radio operator. Wonderful things they trained girls to do.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: She hadn’t a clue what electricity was almost and here she was just an ordinary dressmaker joined the Air Force and they trained her to be a wireless op down at Yatesbury. Is it Yatesbury? Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Yes, that’s right. Yatesbury.
Interviewer: Near Bristol.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes. Down there. And you know she qualified and eventually she was posted to Chichsands Priory which was an out station of —
Interviewer: Bentley Priory. Bletchley Park.
BS: Bletchley Park.
Interviewer: Bletchley Park.
BS: And she used to listen to all the German aircraft recording messages and pass it on to Bletchley Park. So an ordinary dressmaker. You see the people see they trained people up to do in the war you know.
Interviewer: And the responsibilities that they had.
BS: And the responsibility.
Interviewer: At a very young age.
BS: I know. Yes.
Interviewer: So much so that certainly after the, when the war came to an end a lot of women who had been trained wanted to keep, use that training.
BS: Well exactly. Oh yes. And she found it useful my, this other sister because when I got back from South Africa she was still in, still in the WAAF and about the following year she wanted to go out and join my sister in South Africa. But you couldn’t get passage anywhere at that time on the ships or anywhere and so she got together another group of like minded people and they bought an ex-Naval air sea rescue launch. Only about sixty seventy feet long. These twenty thirty people and they equipped it and they had these petrol engines with huge fifty gallon drums of, of fuel latched on the deck and they set off for South Africa. Took them three months to get there and she eventually did get there and of course it was in all the papers at the time. This wonderful trip made by these people.
Interviewer: That must have been an experience.
BS: And then when they got there they sold their boat and my sister went up to join my other sister up in Johannesburg. Well, that’s another story but so, you know those sorts of things people did you know in those days. Anyway, so, so that so I got home and when I got back I was home for a month and then I wondered where I was going to get posted to and of all places I was posted to RAF Westwood at Peterborough. There was an RAF station there training, training Free French Air Force pilots.
Interviewer: Is that just north of Peterborough?
BS: No. It’s on the edge of Peterborough. Right on the edge. Do you know Peterborough?
Interviewer: I do but I, I —
BS: If you go out to Westwood area it was you know the bit that was the Baker Perkins factory there. It was just at the back of Baker Perkins. In fact, the airfield stretched right up to Baker Perkins fence and that was all RAF Westwood. It’s all housing now and factories.
Interviewer: Yes, I knew there was an airfield around but I wasn’t sure where it was.
BS: So I was stationed there. I was stationed there for a short while and then after a few months, I wasn’t there all that long really I was posted to Japan.
Interviewer: Right. And we’ll talk about that in the next recording.
BS: Yes. Ok.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: I’m with Bertie Salvage and we’re talking about his experiences in the RAF and after your time in the Second World War Bertie I understand you ended up in Japan.
BS: Yes. It must have been sometime in early ’46 I was posted to Japan. Of course, this came as quite a surprise to me. Of all places to go to. To the occupation force in Japan because at that time Honshu, the main island was divided into half. The Americans occupied the upper part and the British Commonwealth Occupation Force as it was called occupied the lower half of Honshu, you know which was between Army and RAF. And what, what they’d done is when the occupation forces moved in they’d taken over old Japanese military establishments including airfields and when I got there I was posted to a place called Miho which had been another Japanese airfield where they trained the Kamikaze pilots. And the south, the south of Japan, or the south west southwest corner of Japan. But anyway going back to to going we set off from Tilbury in an old boat called the SS Ranchi and this had been an old P&O boat you know. Quite an old boat and it had been fitted out as a troop ship and it took us six weeks to get to Japan believe it or not. We think these days they are there in about sixteen hours. Almost. Not quite. A bit more than that but it took us six weeks to get there. All through the Med and down through stopping off at, in Port Said, Aden, Columbo, Singapore. It was quite, Shanghai, Hong Kong then into a place called Kure in Japan which had been a big Japanese naval base. And it had been fantastic, you know the thought of going to Japan. You know this place that we’d all heard of as you know created such, you know treated, given our boys such a bad time in the war in the Far East and it was quite a fascinating thought of going there. Anyway, arrived at Kure and going through the Japanese inland sea was quite an experience. All the little volcanic islands which were quite picturesque. Eventually landed at Kure. Anyway, we were entrained across to Miho, this ex-Japanese base and of course it’s quite interesting to see the Japanese landscape. It was very hilly and mountainous. Very forested all over. Of course it’s a volcanic, volcanic origin Japan so it is, you know it is very hilly. So we landed at Miho and I was posted on to, well basically 17 Squadron Spitfires but 11 Squadron was there as well and basically I was really working on both squadrons but administratively I was sort of on the strength of 17 Squadron. And the object of the, was although we were an occupation force the main job really was to patrol the sea around Japan off the, across the Yellow Sea and you know as far on the way across towards China and all over that area for some reason or other. But anyway, so that was very interesting being there.
Interviewer: Did you get to see much of the country at all?
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Whilst you were there.
BS: Yes. I got, I just to go back a bit it was interesting because all these, all the domestic staff on the camp were Japanese. Ex-Japanese Army and lots and lots of Japanese, and lots and lots of Japanese girls used to come on the camp every day doing all the menial tasks. In fact, the funny thing was that the, I was a corporal when I went there still and whilst had been there nearly a year I was promoted to sergeant. After I was promoted to sergeant I was moved to the Sergeant’s Mess. I was given my own sort of room and I was issued with a room girl who used to attend to all my domestic requirements. She used to clean my room and keep doing my washing and ironing and everything else. So that was quite an experience in itself and whilst I was there we had a NAAFI canteen of course which we, which we used to use and this was staffed by English girls in the WRVS who had been sent in to to run the canteens for the troops you see. And I happened to meet the manageress of the local NAAFI canteen and get to know her quite well. Gladys. And she, like the other girls were living in the Officer’s Mess. They were given the honorary rank of flight lieutenant because there was no other sort of way we could accommodate them really.
Interviewer: The equivalent. Yeah.
BS: You see. Because the Japanese were really off limits in the sense, in the sense that when you went out in Japan we were pretty well limited to we’d go in the shops and things. We weren’t really supposed to go in their houses and that sort of thing you know. You know, we were and all our provisions were you know were provided by either America, Australia or New Zealand or Australia. They used to come from all over the, the western world one might say. Of course, the Japanese had nothing. They had only rice and fish to eat you see. Of course, they weren’t ever proper meat eaters before that. They’d sort of produced dairy herds and that sort of thing. They lived on rice and fish. Anyway, so that was the situation there. So I got to know Gladys very very well and we eventually at the time I was there we, we courted as one might say and eventually I married her in Japan. And by this time she had been sent down to Iwakuni which was the main RAF base headquarters down, down near Kure. The RAF airfield at Iwakuni and it was the Communication Flight there. They had Dakotas there which they used to supply the, communicate with the RAF other establishments in Honshu and she got posted there to the WRVS canteen there and I wangled, by this time I’d been promoted to sergeant, by this time I wangled a posting down there myself you see. I think they took pity on me at Miho. Anyway, so I was posted down to Iwakuni as well. It was at Iwakuni that Gladys and I had as service wedding. And of course the funny thing was that of course I was working on the Dakotas there and the funny thing was that she was living in the Officer’s Mess there and I I was living in the Sergeant’s Mess. So after we got married we had to go back to the same situation. The only time I could see her was in the Officer’s Mess at Iwakuni. The WRVS had a separate sort of living room you see and I could visit her in this living room, you know. The only time I could see her inside anywhere. This went on for about nearly two months after which time we came home. But it was very interesting and when we did get married there we, we had a honeymoon up at a place called Koana just outside Tokyo. This was a beautiful hotel on the shores of the Pacific. It had been built by the Japanese to house the 1940 Olympic games which never took place. To house the contestants and everybody. So this was taken over as one of the leave hostels. Of course, what happened was that when the occupation force moved into Japan they sorted out all different sort of different sort of posh places around the country for troops to have a break.
Interviewer: R&R. Yeah.
BS: And one of them was at [Kyrenia?]. At Kyoto. Beautiful old famous beauty spot in Japan and going back a bit before I was married to Gladys I had a weeks leave up at Kyoto which was very fine indeed. It was up in the American sector actually near Tokyo. Anyway, so Gladys and I went to Koana. This was an absolutely wonderful fortnight and we actually had a week at Koana and a week down in Kobi at a beautiful Japanese house which had been the residence of the Baron Simotomo who had been executed as a war criminal and they’d taken over his old house as one of the leave hostels as it were. So we had the second week of our honeymoon there and it was absolutely fantastic. But the one of the things that you could see was in the distance to the top of Mount Fuji sticking up. You know with this white top. So that was that. Anyway, when it came time to come home I, we came home on a the old Dilwara which was a properly built troop ship and they used to call it the kit badge because they painted the big blue band around. And of course, Gladys came home first class as officer status.
Interviewer: Oh very nice.
BS: Whereas I of course was on the troop deck with the senior NCOs. Second class. So she came home first class and I came home second class and the only time I could see her was on the second class promenade deck. I wasn’t allowed through to the bloody first class either [laughs] Oh dear.
Interviewer: Only the Air Force could do that.
BS: And the thing is we had of course like all ships had OC troops on board. Like all troops had a usually a colonel who sort of late on in years.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: You might say.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And at one stage she was, poor old Gladys got seasick. She wasn’t a good sailor and I got special treatment from the OC troops to go down to her cabin to give her first aid [laughs] Oh, it was, anyway we stopped off at Singapore and Columbo and we managed to get to shore and spend a bit of time together. BS: Not much though. So the only sort of married life I had was when we got back home to England really. So, but going back to but as 17 and 11 Squadrons on American Independence Day, the 4th of July, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: We were invited, the whole, both squadrons were invited up to a place called [pause] called [pause] Oh dear. The name’s gone from me for the moment but a big airfield near Tokyo which the Americans had taken over. Kizarizu. Kizarizu. That’s the name of the place. And we were invited up there to help take part in their celebrations you see. As I’ve got pictures of the two squadrons all lined up at Kizarizu. Which I, which I took when I was there. And we had a nice two or three days there really at the Americans are very —
Interviewer: Very hospitable and all that.
BS: Very very hospitable.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And they had [pause] yes what the hell, oh yes the famous American fighter. Lightnings I think they called them.
Interviewer: P38 was the twin engine.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: With the tail booms.
BS: That’s right. But before that going back to when I was at Miho the, the New Zealand air force they had corsairs used to land on —
Interviewer: They’re air craft carrier Corsairs yeah.
BS: And I’ve actually worked to service Corsairs as well.
Interviewer: Well, the Royal Navy had them as well of course.
BS: Yeah. That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Yes. So a corsair. They were nice aircraft. And so anyway so after six weeks we got back to England and of course when we got back to England Gladys the WVS, she had been in the Far East you see and of course when the, when the war ended she was moved up with the occupation forces so she was there before me you see. So anyway got back to England she was, and of course she went across to her home which was at Withernsea, East Yorkshire and I went for debriefing as it were to that place up on the Wirral. An old RAF station there. What was it? I’ve forgotten the name of it now but it was it was a sort of like a distribution place you know where you used to go for debriefing after being overseas and what not.
Interviewer: Before my time.
BS: [unclear] and all that and, yes. And of course, I and then of course I went on disembarkation leave and of course I went across to Gladys’ home in Withernsea on the East Yorkshire coast and for the first time I met her parents. It was ever so funny that. And, but I must say I did enjoy my time in Japan. It was eighteen months or so. It was quite an experience. Oh yes. Another thing I forgot to mention is that when I was at Iwakuni we were very near Hiroshima and I went to Hiroshima several times and I saw it in its devastated stated and all that and going back to that time unfortunately I lost my first wife to cancer. Breast cancer. She contracted it in 1954. ’54, and she died in 1960 and at the time they did wonder if she had picked up radio activity.
Interviewer: Out in Japan.
BS: Yes. Because we went to Hiroshima several times and you know saw it and also saw Nagasaki too at one time. So, anyway but Tokyo also Tokyo was an absolute mess as well. That was bombed to hell.
Interviewer: And did you get any feeling for what the Japanese thought about the war?
BS: The Japanese. Well, typical of the Oriental mind as soon as the Emperor said stop, finished and it was all bowing and cowing. Every time you spoke to the Japanese it was always like this. Even the military. And in fact, I don’t know whether you know it but after the war was finished when we, when we sort of took back Sumatra and Java like that we used the Japanese forces to control all the blooming rebels. They came under our control and we were, we were organising all their troops that were still there and they were as obedient as anything.
Interviewer: They had a very strong sense of leadership.
BS: This was their nature. Very very strong.
Interviewer: Very hierarchical —
BS: Yes. Of course.
Interviewer: Society.
BS: The Japanese on a parade if the officer was just for you to turn around and hit the sergeant, hit a corporal the corporal would pick a private out and give him a thrashing. That’s why we used to hand the can back as I say.
Interviewer: Hand the can back. I haven’t heard that before.
BS: Oh yeah. Hand the can back. Oh yeah. Yeah. Pass the can back yes. Hand the can back. Yeah.
Interviewer: But you enjoyed your time there.
BS: Oh, I enjoyed all my Air Force career. Every bit of it. I had, I didn’t want to leave. The only reason why I left I was over fifty five, late forties when I came out it’s because we were at Wittering and we’d bought a house in Stamford. My son was at Stamford School and of course it’s a very good school.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Stamford School. And my daughter was coming up for there and so I was due to be posted to Aden or due to be posted abroad And we didn’t want any. I didn’t think Gwen wanted to move, my second wife that is so we decided and I’d had this very good job offered me with PERA at Melton Mowbray so —
Interviewer: As we say it’s a no brainer at that stage probably to—
BS: Well, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: It was Production Engineering and Research Association and I was offered a job as a senior author there. Of course, with of my technical experience in the RAF.
Interviewer: It was time to leave.
Interviewer: Yeah. The wonderful technical training I had in the Air Force was second to none.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And all the way through. You had your basic training but you keep on going on course after course after course.
BS: Again, back to —
Interviewer: I mean courses had six months.
BS: Back to that old training again.
Interviewer: Yes. I mean my electronic training and technical training was second to none when I came out.
BS: Ok. Well, we’ll talk about that in the next session.
Interviewer: Yes.
[recording paused]
BS: Do a quick sort of lead into that really.
Interviewer: Ok. Well, I’m with, I’m still with Bertie Salvage and we’ve gone through the Second World War. We’ve talked a little bit about time after the Second World War and now we’re starting to talk about his —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Memories of the V Force and you know —
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: 1954 onwards.
BS: That’s right. Well, just to go back to 1951. I was posted out to Egypt. The Canal Zone. For three years on Deversoir on the Canal. On the Canal, you know.
Interviewer: Did that posting come out of the blue or did you ask for that?
BS: Oh no. That came out the blue because I can always remember when we came back from Japan going through the bloody Suez Canal I looked across at the bleak desert area and all the different military camps and I thought oh God I hope I never get posted here.
Interviewer: Yes. I hear that’s what most people say their first —
BS: I know I was posted out to Deversoir in Egypt. Of course, it was a bit of, a bit of a hammer blow to take but I actually it was quite nice there really. It was right on the edge of the Great Bitter Lake. I was on 249 Squadron. 213, on Vampires. And of course it was my first real, I had worked on Meteors before but it was my first real experience to be working on jet aircraft. They were lovely aircraft, the Vampire.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Have you ever flown one?
Interviewer: No. No.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: No.
BS: It took us, anyway so I worked on that and so in 1954 I got posted back to England and after my month’s disembarkation leave I was posted to RAF Gaydon. Never even heard of it before. But Gaydon had been a wartime station which they were re-starting again you know sort of —
Interviewer: They started to put some money into some of the —
BS: It had been held in like a sort of mothball condition.
Interviewer: Care and maintenance.
BS: Care and maintenance. Mothballed. And so they decided to start that off and start that off as as the initial V bomber training station you know. Of course, there would just be the V bombers. What happened was that the Victor, the Vulcan and the Victor were the first ones to be designed but they were going to take a long time to get into, into operations so they decided to as a stop gap to build the Valiant which Vickers had said they could build far quicker for them as a, as a stop gap and really until the Victors and the Vulcans were available. So I was posted to RAF Gaydon as an instructor on the Technical Training School. Of course it was going to be the OCU.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: The aircrew were going to be trained there and also the ground crew people servicing the aircraft you see. So I was posted on to be the instructor on instruments on the, on the Valiant first of all. So of course, when I got there I think the very first Valiant was there. Anyway, I was straightaway sent away on long courses. I had quite a few weeks down at Vickers at Weybridge where they were being made, built there. I went to different other manufacturers of different instruments and things. GPI and Mark 4s, these all sorts.
Interviewer: The navigation equipment on the aeroplane.
BS: Yeah. Yes. And also the NBS bombing system which they used. And so I went on these long courses and I got back to Gaydon eventually and by that time of course I think another sort of couple of others were there or something and we set up the school. And I was in instruments, we had all the other trades, instruments, air frames, armaments you know and so of course I had to straight away set about creating all my instruction notes, my instruction techniques and programmes. All the, when you go in to instructing you have that all to do.
Interviewer: Yes. I remember that. Yes.
BS: Because, [unclear] because you really start to learn other things you know. You really start to realise how much do I know about my job and that sort of thing. And when it came to start teaching of course it was, it was a bit tough at first but I really got into it you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And I got so used to writing up the authorship, authoring my own notes that it I found it very interesting indeed.
Interviewer: And working with the manufacturers is normally quite —
BS: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: You get a lot of job satisfaction if you —
BS: Yeah. I went to Coventry to HSD, Hawker Siddeley Dynamics and everywhere and also to [pause] no that was later on I went to Ferranti when I was on the Blue Steel. So, you know. So, yes you got used to it. I spent quite a month or two I suppose going around different manufacturers. Cheltenham down to —
Interviewer: Smiths.
BS: To Smiths. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You know, all sorts of different places. Anyway, of course you collate all this knowledge, put it all together and you know and, and the first day I had to instruct, you know the chaps are sitting there. I thought it was, you know it was quite an experience really.
Interviewer: And what rank are you by now?
BS: I was still a sergeant.
Interviewer: Still a sergeant. Yeah.
BS: Yes. Promotion was a bit slow and anyway I was going to go for the chief tech which I got a bit later on.
Interviewer: And what was living I mean England was still rationing going on in this period.
BS: Yeah, so what happened was when I first went to Gaydon of course there were no married quarters so they said to us go and find yourself a hiring somewhere and we’ll take it on. So I looked around South Warwickshire. I don’t know whether you know South Warwickshire. It’s a lovely county.
Interviewer: Not really. It’s a nice part of the world though, isn’t it?
BS: [unclear] and all down Stratford Upon Avon. All down that way because we were near Stratford you see and so I found myself a little —
Interviewer: This was before the M40 of course.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I found myself a little village called, down near Moreton in the Marsh called called Brailes and I found a little tiny cottage there. A country cottage. And so I moved Gladys down there, my wife with, who had our first boy then, our son by then. She was also, no she had got the two boys by then. We had two sons. So she came and so I was living out. It was about twelve miles away from there so I used to go in and backwards and forwards to Gaydon every day. So we were living in married and they started to build married quarters but they weren’t going to be ready for another year you see. So, so that went on really and of course getting to know the aircraft better and the chaps coming through. It used to be a fortnight, two weeks course or two or three weeks and then would be about a week and then have another lot come in then.
Interviewer: And is National Service still going on at this stage?
BS: And I’m going to say this, oh yes, National Service run to 1960 ’61. So National Service but what impressed me was a lot of national service chaps coming through HN, Higher National Certificate. Well trained chaps.
Interviewer: Chaps that decided to join the Air Force rather than —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: And they were a two year commitment were they?
BS: The two year commitment.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: But they were most interesting to teach because they were so receptive. I bet you could tell them something they’d know straightaway through their engineering background. They were a joy to teach really you know. They were so good. It’s like it was during the war of course where they had all these skilled people in from outside and —
Interviewer: The interesting thing to me if people joined on a two year National Service if they spent a year or eighteen months training they would be only be productive for six months.
BS: Oh, I know. That’s right. Well, they used to spend about six months training I suppose up to the basic mechanics but I’d get these chaps in and you know they were highly really highly qualified.
Interviewer: And of course, in the early 50s of course, there was a massive expansion of the Air Force because of Korea.
BS: Oh yes. That’s right.
Interviewer: And a lot of training schools were set up then.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: A lot of aircrew were pumped through.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: And obviously there would have been all the Meteor training outfits.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So I was at, I was at Leconfield when the Korean War was on and we sent aircraft. Oh yes, when I was at Gaydon the Suez Crisis erupted.
Interviewer: ’56.
BS: Well, because I’d just come back from Suez only the previous year.
Oh, of course. Yes.
BS: And I was, I got we went through quite a lot of trouble out there with it before it fully broke out really. You know had a lot of trouble really. Anyway, but the Suez Crisis broke out and of course we had to get involved in that and we sent two or three Valiants out there with bombed up and ready to go and you know.
Interviewer: They went to Malta, didn’t they?
BS: They went to Malta.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Yes. The service sort of evolved in that. So after, oh about 1957 or thereabouts we had the first Victors and so yes I also went then. I went on. I was taken off and went on the quite a few [unclear] of course to Handley Page at Radlett and did the Victor. On the Victor. So when I came back I was trained up on the Victor but what happened was that because it was a bit of a struggle to teach on two aircraft like that because we still had the Valiants there. A few Valiants. They had another chap come in to supplement me to, you know on the Victor so I did a bit of teaching on the Victor but this other guy sort of did more and more of that really on the actual instrumentation side. So I still sort of really concentrated on the Valiant. But I did, when he was away I used to do the Victor as well you know. So but very similar the systems really you know. Particularly the NBS system and the navigation equipment and everything else and basically the flying was pretty much it was just the layouts and things. But general principles were the same. So it was all very interesting though while I was there. So I suppose do you want me to go on from there?
Interviewer: Yeah, I just wondered, you know —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: So how long did you stay on at Gaydon?
BS: Sorry?
Interviewer: How long did you spend at Gaydon then?
BS: At Gaydon, I was, what happened was when I was at Gaydon unfortunately while I was there my first wife contracted cancer and she was given basically first of all two years to live then she actually lived for five so although I was really screened on this instructing job. It was how shall I put it? More heavily emphasised that I was screened because of Gladys’ illnesses.
Interviewer: Yeah. Domestic situation. Yeah.
BS: And through that time I was put up for a branch commission in the engineering branch but I had to turn it down because I couldn’t leave my wife, you see.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BS: So that, so that was that but anyway that didn’t matter. So that was that so, and then, so she died in 1960 and eventually I left in 1962. I was posted to RAF Newton. Not got posted but I was despatched there on the Skybolt course because I was designated. Because of my experience of technical you know side of thing they decreed that I should go on the Skybolt.
Interviewer: They needed someone to bring Skybolt into service.
BS: So I went to Newton for six months. I’d all the instrumentation electronic side of control and guidance of the Skybolt missile.
Interviewer: And did you get out to America?
BS: No.
Interviewer: During that time.
BS: Unfortunately, I got back to Gaydon and we were given a couple of weeks to pack up and we’d packed up almost with a few, well with a week I think of going to America. My wife was, well the whole family was going to go together to Denver in Colorado and then after that we were going to go down to Florida to Eginton or Eglington.
Interviewer: Eglin.
BS: Eglin.
Interviewer: Not Elgin. Eglin.
BS: We had to go to Eglin.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Down on the Caribbean.
Interviewer: On the —
BS: Yes. Where we were —
Interviewer: The Florida coast.
BS: Two years and got fully Skybolt trained to come but a week or two before they decided to ditch Skybolt in favour of the Polaris for the submarine as a strategic missile.
Interviewer: Well, my understanding is Skybolt isn’t doing very well and —
BS: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: JFK met with Macmillan.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And —
BS: Yeah. That’s right.
Interviewer: JFK offered, the Americans offered to give the Brits the chance to develop it and, and Macmillan thought the best way out of that was to buy Polaris instead.
BS: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Which JFK agreed to.
BS: Yes. So that’s why I didn’t go. So that, so that was that finished. So of course I was then it was a few weeks in. I was a chief technician by this time well I had been for a flight sergeant. Anyway, so I think because of my Skybolt experience they decided that I should go to Blue Steel.
Interviewer: Quite logical. Yes.
BS: Yes, so because of my, so back I went to Newton and because I’d already done the Skybolt six months I was spared the initial training on Blue Steel because it was still the basic sort of training on electronics you see.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: So I went back to Newton for three months on the Blue Steel system itself. So I went back in, that was 1963 and I went back until March 1964 or March or April of ’64. So I learned all the, when I was involved on Blue Steel what was the control, the guidance system. The inertial navigation system, the control system which was the gyro control like auto pilot.
Interviewer: You had an inertia navigator didn’t it?
BS: Oh yes. Yeah, I did, I had to go to Ferrantis for that, you know. And also the flight rules computer. I was involved with all this, that [unclear] on that so I was really fully technically trained on the control and guidance system of the Blue System. I don’t think there’s many people left.
Interviewer: Just a handful I think probably that remember it.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: In any details.
BS: Anyway, so that was very interestingly and fantastically the courses I went on what you learned.
Interviewer: Who built the missile Blue Steel? Do you remember?
BS: It was HSD, Coventry.
Interviewer: Oh, Hawker Siddeley. Yeah.
BS: Yes. So, we went across there again as well. So, so I went back to Newton for that and eventually then I got posted to, well it was either Scampton or Wittering. We didn’t know. Anyway, I was, I was posted to Scampton, to Wittering. But of course, all the time I was at Wittering we had this strong liaison with Waddington with, with Scampton.
Interviewer: Scampton.
BS: Because I mean the systems on the two were, the Blue Steels were identical really. I mean —
Interviewer: A missile is identical it’s just —
BS: A missile. Yes.
Interviewer: It’s just a question of how it plugged in to the aeroplane.
BS: That’s right. Yes. But so when I went to Wittering they had built a huge new hangar there with all the servicing workshops and offices. Administrative parts and also the HTP as you called it.
Interviewer: High test peroxide.
BS: Yeah. The —
Interviewer: The Gin Palace.
BS: The Gin Palace. Yes. That was right next to the hangar and they were closely associated so I was straightway when I went to Wittering I was put in the, they had a, you know the laboratories and the calibration rooms of the workshops for the controls guidance systems. And so I was put in, I was put in charge of that really and you know obviously had staff who would be trained up like me but so for several, a year or two I was involved in the service and maintenance of the systems going on the missile.
Interviewer: And can you remember any test firings and things like that?
BS: Well, yes. I didn’t actually. I think they took off from the Welsh coast didn’t they?
Interviewer: They would have fired probably some in the Aberporth range.
BS: Yeah. The Aberporth ranges. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah but —
BS: But I never went over there. Some people did but I never got in because I was involved in the, in the servicing.
Interviewer: Servicing.
BS: Testing and calibration of the systems really, you know.
Interviewer: And it was quite a complicated piece of kit, was it? My understanding was that you had to align the inertial and fly [unclear] and then —
BS: Oh lord. Oh yes. Yes. You did. Yes. You did all that and of course we had in the iron department as we called it we had a higher complex system of calibration instruments to land the [tryoscopic] the brake hold, brake control charge had to be absolutely perfectly set up and [unclear] you know you set that with the oscilloscopes and that sort of thing and the Flight Rules Computer, the FRC, what happened was that the, the Blue Steel would be dropped from about forty thousand feet. The motor would kick in, climb up to about sixty thousand, fly for about two hundred miles, then freefall on the target. That was the [pause] Now as soon as it was launched they got up to altitude then the control system would fit in, it would click in to the control and guide the thing directed by the Flight Rules Computer which was the FRC. So the computer would take it to target with the controls being functioned by the control system provided.
Interviewer: And Ferranti I presume did all the, did that part of the —
BS: That’s right. Yes. Yes, it’s from the [INC] to the FRC to the control system and they did. Everything would lock off at a certain point and it would just freefall on to target. That’s the, that was the theory. But so all three were closely combined really. [INC[ IN, THE FRC, the control system.
Interviewer: And how did they get on regarding the aeroplane and guiding the missile when it was loaded with its, with the weapon?
BS: Well, I’ve been, well let’s put it this way I never actually went out to the, out of the QRA system. What happened was that there used to be at least one, perhaps sometimes two at the end of the runway. Quick Retaliation Aircraft they called it. The QRA. And there was always an aircraft, one or two out there all the time.
Interviewer: Loaded up and ready to go.
BS: And the crew on board as well. Ready to go within minutes you know. To take off and there would have been a guard out there I assume. I never actually went out there.
Interviewer: So if you had to service the missile —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: The warhead would be taken off.
BS: Oh lord, yes. Well, I was all the time you never did any servicing unless the missile was actually in the hangar. Not to the point of its control system. Oh yes. They’d take the pod out and then they’d bring the missile in. The pod was put in, you know —
Interviewer: So the warhead was called the pod, was it?
BS: The pod.
Interviewer: Ok.
BS: The pod, yeah. I saw several. Well, I saw. I never had anything to do with them but I mean they used to keep we had the bomb dump at Wittering. It’s still there I think.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
BS: The Navy used to, the Navy used it.
Interviewer: Well, the bomb dump at Wittering was used, you know.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: It was the first bomb dump for the first nuclear weapons.
BS: I think it’s still functioning is it? They, I think they were —
Interviewer: I’m not too sure what it’s used for now.
BS: I think I’ve seen Navy vehicles going in there. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Quite possibly being used as a storage area.
BS: Yes. Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. It was. I never actually went in it but I, you know, I know where it was [unclear] but I never actually went inside but yes they used to. There was a lot of, a lot of fuss when they used to be loading them up with the pod you know but that was quite, and then of course as I was saying what [pause] what was it? About 1967 or thereabouts they decided that they wanted more people to come into the system. Technicians you know. And they decided to set up the Blue Steel Training School. Technical Training School at Wittering. In the Blue Steel hangar. And I was appointed, because of my instructing experience, my vast experience they asked me to set it up and run it as as organiser and also to instruct myself as a flight sergeant at this time. Instruct. Instruct. Instruct on it you see as well as organise all the other trades. So we, we, we have this scheme running. We used to have them in for about a week or two and teach them the systems, you know. So I was running that, the Technical Training School there because of my experience.
Interviewer: And did that do that do, that did all the training for Blue Steel so chaps would come down from Scampton and to do the course with you.
BS: Well, I think Scampton had, I think they must have had their own scheme because I don’t remember people coming from Scampton. I think they had their own scheme running up there. I’m pretty sure because I was just really involved with those coming into Wittering really. But I’m sure they must have done. So I was heavily involved with that. So you see my experience is very deep on the technical side on the ring of steel.
Interviewer: The thing that appeals to me is the fact that you started on learning your trade back in 1939.
BS: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: And here we are thirty years on.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Still using the basics of electrics.
BS: Oh, that’s right.
Interviewer: But applying it into a much more modern system.
BS: Oh, [unclear] all, I mean I didn’t know a thing about electronics and a finite mechanism you know and the correlation between the two mechanics to electrics and backwards and forwards. You know what I mean.
Interviewer: The beginning of digital computing.
BS: The transfers, oh yes. Oh yes. That was a appealing. The FRC was. Of course, it was all sort of transistors then. You know, transistor technology. So, you know and, and of course, you know apart from being taught you learn a lot through reading too. You know, it’s all —
Interviewer: And you must have seen a terrific change in the Air Force to have gone from the Second World War.
BS: Oh, right through.
Interviewer: To the time of Korea.
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: And conscription still going on.
BS: Listen, this is about me. I think —
Interviewer: National Service.
BS: I went through the most fascinating period really right through to, you know from basic things like this blooming Valentia.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: To —
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: To, to V bombers, you know. And of course, at Cosford they have the, the Cold War hangar there.
Interviewer: They do, yes. Yeah.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: I’ve been just the once.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And I must go again.
BS: Yes, I, pardon?
Interviewer: I’ve just been the once and I must go again.
BS: Yeah, well you see my daughter lives at Lichfield so it’s only just a stone’s throw from there so when I go, I’ve been once or twice you know. She takes me there. Yes and of course they’ve got a Blue Steel there. And I’ll tell you where else I saw Blue Steel. Out at Newark. You know out at Newark.
Interviewer: At the Air Museum.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: I think there’s one.
BS: I found it a pretty tatty when I went down.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: [unclear]
Interviewer: That’s the problem with museums. They get things in quite bad condition sometimes.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And they have to allocate them time.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: To renovate them.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And bring them up to —
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Their former glory.
BS: And the amazing thing is, or the sad thing is that there’s only one Valiant and that’s at Cosford. That’s the only one. The only is one that is in existence now.
Interviewer: Well, the problem with you know the large aeroplanes is that if you leave them out in the open —
BS: Oh aye, well —
Interviewer: They rot very quickly.
BS: They do.
Interviewer: So I know the Irish museum —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Say they have a problem with big aeroplanes.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: They just don’t have the room for them all.
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: And they’re wondering when the TriStar retires.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Where they’re going to have space to put one of those.
BS: Yes. Yes. So you know so when the Blue Steel they decided to start phasing about ’69 ’70. I just stayed on for a bit longer then I decided to retire from the Air Force.
Interviewer: Time for pastures new.
BS: Didn’t really want to go but I was really, circumstances made it. But fortunately, I went in to a very very good job at PERA and of course [pause] do you want me to go on?
Interviewer: Yes. Keep going.
BS: When I went to PERA at Melton Mowbray I don’t know whether you know or have heard of it.
Interviewer: No, I’ve not heard of them.
BS: Production Engineering and Research Association. They trouble shoot for the engineering industry. They’ve experts in every field.
Interviewer: And did, did they approach you or did you hear about it?
BS: No. I heard about them so I approached them and they wanted to interview me and I got the job before I left the Air Force.
Interviewer: Fabulous.
BS: Yeah. So that was it. So I, they have this, all these different departments for troubleshoot. Expert top engineers and you know —
Interviewer: Sounds a fantastic organisation.
BS: These particularly the machine tool industry would send people there on courses and they would have experts from PERA go to different factories to give them advice on production engineering.
Interviewer: Sounds fantastic.
BS: So they always had this large technical authorship department as well which they write up handbooks for different industries you know. So I applied but of course because of my RAF experience they had a contract. They had a contract with the Admiralty.
Interviewer: Right.
BS: To write up the manuals for the nuclear submarines at Barrow. So I was sent up to bloody Barrow in Furness on this contract. I was on HMS Churchill for months writing up the control systems on the nuclear submarines of the of the CO2 scrubber systems. You know the air is scrubbed clean and it’s ejected into the deep water to leave the oxygen to go back into the, into the hull. You know. And I wrote up all these you see because of my experience. But you know so that was a very fascinating really. So, so anyway after a couple of years I one of the member firms was a firm called Newall Engineering Group at Peterborough here. They wrote, they produced these, these very very sophisticated machine tools. Grinders and jig borers and things like that for the machine tool for the mainly for the automotive industry. You know, car factories. So they were a member firm of PERA and they were looking for a, and we used to write books for them. But they wanted their own chief author you see. So I applied and I got the job. I wanted to come nearer home.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I was so fed up with —
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah, you get —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Commuting gets a bit wearing.
BS: That’s right. It’s interesting but you know.
Interviewer: No I thought —
BS: So I thought I would come so it was a very very good job and I’d be my own boss there you know and [unclear] so I went to PERA. I went to —
Interviewer: Right.
BS: Newalls at Peterborough and I had to really convert my mind but using basic engineering knowledge to these highly sophisticated machine tools. Jig borers and high speed grinders which used to grind crank shafts and [cannon] shafts. And that was fascinating because you use your basic engineering knowledge. Although I didn’t know anything about them you still get through.
Interviewer: Yeah, its —
BS: You, you have to spend all the time in the drawing office with them and the designers. The people and really pick their brains really.
Interviewer: But if you’d been trained well in the first place it’s not difficult —
BS: Oh no.
Interviewer: To pick up something new is it?
BS: No. No. Not at all.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And the idea being that you were, you could have this information, collate it write it in a presentable form you know people could read and understand, take it back and do you understand? Can you read it? And they would make, they would criticise.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You know so you —
Interviewer: Critique.
BS: So that’s right so then you produce the complete manual. The interesting thing was that we supplied the machines all over the world to, to China, to, to Russia, to, to Sweden, to France to, you know all sorts of places we sold machines to, particularly Russia.
Interviewer: Did you get to travel there?
BS: Oh no. I didn’t unfortunately.
Interviewer: No.
BS: But my books of course had to be translated in to the —
Interviewer: The native language.
BS: Exactly. So as soon as I had produced a manual for machines that were going somewhere I had to get it and I had to go to the translator, we used to translate it in London. I used to go down to the translators, get the books translated, bring it back and then all us engineers used to come across you know to check the machines before going to the different countries. And they’d want to read the manual so you had to give them the manual in their language for to see if they understood you know and usually you know they went down pretty well really. And the thing is that trans, technical translation is not like ordinary translation it has to be done by A — a national of the country concerned which was just going plus the fact it has to be an engineer.
Interviewer: Yes. You’ve got it. Yes.
BS: So you’ve got to have the two. There’s no good getting a chap whose learned Russian or French to do it.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: It’s got to be a national of the country concerned.
Interviewer: Have you ever read any books, manuals on Japanese hifi you’ll know.
BS: Oh, I know.
Interviewer: It says press button B to —
BS: In my experience I’m, oh I’m very critical of that. Very critical. So that was that really. So —
Interviewer: Well, very well. Thanks for telling me about your, a little bit of time about your time after you left the Air Force.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Thank you.
BS: Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Bertie Salvage
Salvage, Bertie-Cold War-World War II
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v67
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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eng
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Sound
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01:38:46 audio recording
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Bertie Salvage joined the RAF in 1939 as an apprentice and initially began his technical training at RAF Cranwell before training was transferred to RAF Halton and also shortened because of the start of the Second World War. Bertie was present when Lord Trenchard addressed the ground staff at the station. Bertie was sent to South Africa to work on aircraft there for the Empire Training Scheme. He was then posted to Japan in the post war years. He progressed in his career with post war aircraft including the V bombers and then on to missiles systems such as Skybolt and Blue Steel.
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1941
1943
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
South Africa
Japan
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Southend-on-Sea
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Creator
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This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
218 Squadron
ground personnel
military living conditions
RAF Cranwell
RAF Halton
RAF Marham
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1293/17591/PBallantyneWM1901.2.jpg
86381923d989c26f4f633b5ee8a995de
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1293/17591/ABallantyneWM190614.2.mp3
75fb5804dcfe9ab355b6478820a4ddf5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Ballantyne, Bill
William Morris Ballantyne
W M Ballantyne
Professor Ballantyne
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Bill Ballantyne (1922 - 2021, 1395001 Royal Air Force) who flew as a pilot with 77 Squadron. Also includes his pilot's flying logbook, service training documents and a photograph of his crew.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-06-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Ballantyne, WM
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JS: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jim Sheach. The interviewee is Bill Ballantyne. The interview is taking place at Bill’s home in Edinburgh, Scotland on the 14th of June 2019. Also present is Caroline Urquhart. Bill, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed. Could you first tell me a bit about your life before you joined the RAF?
BB: Before I joined the RAF, immediately I was at Cambridge University and I went there just before, just after the war broke out. Just after the war broke out and I had one year there. I’d always been interested in flying. I took “Flight.” “Flight” magazine regularly before the war so there was no question about which Service I would join if I had to join any. I regarded it then as lunatic that we had another war within twenty years of the one which preceded that one but that’s another story. So I did one year at Cambridge and I was supposed to be studying law but in fact, well you could call it studying law. We all knew we were going into the Forces after a year and it was mostly playtime quite frankly. We didn’t do very much so I got a third class degree at the end of that lot and at the end I went in to the Air Force to do pilot training, which was thorough. My goodness it was thorough. The first international training we went down to Torquay and did marching to get fit. That was the idea of that one. And certain basic aeronautical courses like air speed indicators and all that sort of thing and navigation. Basic navigation. And stop in a moment?
JS: No. You’re fine.
BB: Before that, before the war if you want to go back a bit, I was at Dulwich College, which was a fairly rough school in those days. Superb now. Absolutely superb. But in those days it was a rough public school. In retrospect I look back on that with a certain amount of favour. I was beaten eleven times I remember. Terribly clever. You were really beaten. I mean, it was terribly painful so I probably wasn’t all that good. But the one thing it did teach you at public school was a moral code. If you had, if you were a dirty little liar, you were sent to the prefect’s room and beaten for being a dirty little liar. So the moral code was fairly high. And I think people forget that. People forget that dealing with current day values that people have forgotten. To lie these days seems to be perfectly acceptable and in those days you were thrashed if you did it. It was a different story all together. Then after Dulwich I went to Cambridge as I say. You don’t want to go further back than Dulwich, do you?
JS: No. That’s fine.
BB: Quite.
JS: That’s fine.
BB: So, then I went to Cambridge and then went in to the Air Force and did my pilot training which meant a normal course in Tiger Moths. On to Airspeed Oxfords to get on to multi-engine and then how far are we going forward now? Forward now?
JS: Yeah.
BB: And then in the Air Force after a good deal of training, which was rigorous but extremely good I went [pause] where did I go first?
CU: Is it not —
BB: No. Not in there yet. I went to initial training at Torquay and then went, I can’t remember I’m sorry where my next training was after Torquay. Anyway, I was then sent for basic training to get my wings to South Africa. We were the first course to go to South Africa and I was posted there to Durban in the beginning, and then at Durban we did Tiger Moth training which was the usual start. It was like flying a birdcage I’m afraid. Very rough stuff. And Tiger Moth training, I was very lucky with Tiger Moths training because I went on to Hawker Harts, Audaxes and these were forerunners of the Hurricane which was great. Marvellous training. To be sent up in South Africa with the beautiful weather, just enough cumulus cloud to make it interesting and say, ‘Would you mind going up Ballantyne?’ And you did two hours aerobatics. Bliss [laughs] Absolute. The really, the only part of flying as such, real flying I really enjoyed. That was absolutely marvellous. Then from that, passed out with that, with my wings, and then went up to Pietersburg on the Rhodesian border to train on to Tiger Moths, and after doing Tiger Moths I was sent up to [unclear] Kenya for a little while, to spend at a place called [unclear] and from that I was posted to a squadron, a flight base place in, in Egypt in LG, LG 227 it was. LG227 in Egypt, waiting for posting and some of the people were posted from there, from my course were posted. No, on to Wellingtons bombing aircraft. Very nasty job indeed. Suicide [laughs] absolute suicide. Shipping strikes in Wellingtons not anybody’s idea of a joke at all. Not at all. And then I was waiting and then I was suddenly posted to 267 Squadron which was in Transport Command which wasn’t what I was expecting at all. So I spent quite a lot of time flying. In retrospect very worthwhile stuff what we were taking. Supplies up to the front line and obviously flying back wounded people and it was a worthwhile job actually. Quite a good job. But it didn’t suit me because I wanted really an operational job where I could be shot at and by some extraordinary [laughs] extraordinarily, we were like that. I was twenty two then. I think that’s the way we used to think. And anyway [pause] eventually the CO of 267 Squadron came to me and he said, ‘Ballantyne, you’re not going to make a transport pilot are you?’ And I said, ‘No, sir. Preferably not.’ He said, ‘Right.’ He posted me down to another squadron down in the south in, in Cairo in fact, and I ended up flying Beauforts. An extremely difficult aeroplane to fly. Extremely difficult. I remember the logbook said, “If one engine fails make no attempt whatsoever to keep this aircraft in the air.” [laughs] Which struck me as ominous at the least of it. Anyway, finally the, do you want all this? Are you sure? The CO of that squadron said to me, ‘Look, will you go to London and fly a Beaufort out to us?’ And I said, ‘Ok, sir.’ But I said, ‘I’ll tell you this, sir. If I do go to London I probably won’t come back.’ He said, ‘What the hell do you mean?’ I said, ‘Well, I want to get on an operational squadron. I don’t want to fly Beauforts.’ I mean to fly Beauforts in operations against shipping would have been the absolute kiss of death. I mean, dreadful. So, he said, ‘Well, don’t talk to me like that,’ he said ‘Go back and bring the aircraft back.’ I got back to London and luckily my father had introductions in various high places. He introduced me to get me an interview at the Air Ministry where I went and saw a wing commander and I explained the situation to him. I said, ‘I’ve been doing all this stuff I don’t really enjoy. I want to get in to the, a real squadron.’ I said, ‘A fighter squadron if possible.’ He said, ‘We haven’t got anything in fighter. I’ll put you in Bomber Command if you like straightaway. We’re very short of pilots in bomber.’ I said, ‘Right. Put me in Bomber Command.’ So, that’s how I got into Bomber Command. Then I did the Bomber Command training which was superb. The training was absolutely superb. I had to start on Oxfords again because I had never flown in the UK. It’s a very different story. Flying in the UK is a different story from flying in Egypt. You know, you’ve got, you’ve got no landmarks. You’ve got to be able to read maps and in fact this is a different story altogether. So I did that. I got [pause] the interesting point of that was in my initial flying on Oxfords again in in in this country, the UK my flight commander was my old captain of fencing at Dulwich College. I just touched lightly on the fencing, you see. We were extremely good fencers with a sabre. We, we formed a team called the Gladiators. Three of us, and we toured the country and we beat everybody. Absolutely everybody. We were very very good. Anyway, that’s, that was that. So, where have I got to?
JS: You were talking about Bomber Command training.
BB: Bomber command training. Superb. From Oxfords went on to Wellingtons. Did more flying training on Wellingtons and then eventually got to a Conversion Unit to fly on the four engine stuff which was a different story altogether.
CU: Where, where was this training?
BB: This training on Wellingtons was at Lossiemouth. And after that we went down to Yorkshire to train on [unclear], and stuff at [pause] I’ve forgotten where it was. I must have it in here somewhere [pause] Record end. Here we are. Sorry. Do these gaps matter?
JS: That’s fine. No.
BB: I was in the Cambridge University Air Squadron as well. I’ve forgotten to mention that. And then Regent’s Park, Torquay, West Kirby, Heaton Park, Arundel Castle, Clairwood. We went to South Africa in a convoy which was very interesting with a lot of other boats. That’s Lyttelton, Wonderboom, [unclear] Pietersburg. They were the places I did night flying training in South Africa. So then SS Lancaster. RAF Gilgil [unclear] [Castries,] then up to 267 Squadron at Cairo West. And then, well then I did quite a long period on Bomber Command. We recorded all sorts of strange places. Do you want all the name of the airports? I can give you the list.
JS: No. We’ll scan the —
BB: Do you want to have a look at my logbook? It’s got them all in. And then I was on 77 Squadron until the end of the war in, of course in 1945. So I went to, I went to 77, 77 Squadron in, just before Christmas in ’47 so I was quite late. That was lucky because the losses were less. I think the Germans were running out of petrol I think and hadn’t got too, hadn’t got as many fighters as there used to be. So it wasn’t so, it wasn’t quite as dangerous I don’t think. Anyway, and we were in retrospect I’m not proud of what we were doing. We were bombing civilians. I mean you can see from the targets here it’s mostly cities. Names of cities. And I think in retrospect we were actually bombing civilians at Harris’ idea in order to frighten the German into surrender, which you didn’t do. Germans didn’t do. Didn’t find they were that sort of people so that didn’t work. Anyway, in 1945 it finally did work and that was the end of that lot, and then that was it really. I can’t think about, nothing else in the Air Force except that now I’m a member of the 77 Squadron Memorial Club which holds meetings in York. I don’t know whether you know about this. I’ll give, give you a lot of details about what we do in York. And they elected me. Last year they elected me president. So I said, ‘Well, I don’t mind being president. What do I have to do?’ And she made the arrangements, ‘Nothing at all. Just lend us your name.’ I said, ‘Well, that’s easy. I’m not too worried about that so long as I don’t have to do any work.’ And I haven’t done a damned thing. I go up there, have a couple of years as president and give them a talk. I’ve given them a couple of talks which they seem to enjoy and that was that. So that’s, that’s, that’s my career really. I think that’s about it.
JS: Good. Good.
BB: I’ll tell you all, now in between of course you can see from my brief survey which is I think with my photograph, RAF photograph I’ve been an international lawyer in the Middle East with Arabic dealing with most of my stuff in Arabic with Arabs. Bliss. Marvellous. I had a wonderful, I had a wonderful time. Absolutely wonderful time because I used to deal with the Arabs when they were really Arabs. They’re not Arabs now. They’re completely messed up. I don’t go there anymore, but when they were Arabs, it was a great life. I had a marvellous time and that’s another story. I’ve a story to tell you all about that if you like.
JS: Good.
BB: All sorts of stuff happened. Has happened in that lot but I mean that’s another story altogether. So here we are.
JS: Good.
BB: That’s where we are now.
JS: Looking back at your, at your time with 77 Squadron what, what, what I’ve read it was quite an international mix of aircrew.
BB: Oh yeah.
JS: That were on 77 Squadron.
BB: Yes. I think it was quite. Yes. Let me think now. My crew were mostly Scottish I think. I had an interesting point in 77 at one of our meetings that the descendents of one of my air gunners wrote to me and said, ‘Look, firstly thank you so much for getting our grandfather back safely.’ And I said, ‘That’s all right.’ [laughs]
CU: Her father.
BB: Her father. For getting her father. I said, ‘Well, it was me as well [laughs] Don’t worry about that.’ Anyway, here we are and they said, ‘Can we meet you?’ So I met them. These people up at one of the dinners we have. You know, the dinners we had. I told them about, I told them about certainly about one, I mean I can tell you all sorts of things about the episodes in the flying if you want.
JS: If you would do. Yes.
BB: I mean they said, I said, ‘You’re lucky to be here. I’m lucky to be here and so is your father,’ because I had the one episode. I don’t actually frighten. I don’t get scared. I’m lucky actually. But I had one episode in my life, which is the nearest I’ve ever been to death. We were bombing a place called Goch. I think it was Goch. Anyway, it’s in here and when we went there we missed the target and we firstly we were fired, fired by anti-aircraft battery from a Canadian. They should have known better but they got it wrong so they advised us to stay up. And then we went, missed the target on the way through. I think when you missed the target unfortunately you had to turn around and face everything coming the other way, and it was, you had to keep a sharp lookout you know otherwise and fair enough I was watching very carefully obviously flying back and suddenly a Lancaster came at me absolutely head on. I mean absolutely head on so I plunged the stick forward and thank God he must have been concentrating on the target. Normally, in that emergency he would have done exactly the same.
JS: The same.
BB: And then we would have blown up. No question. And luckily he didn’t see me. So I just, just missed him underneath. I mean absolutely head to head. So the crew hit the roof. It was [laughs] the language of the crew was very marked. I won’t repeat it but it’s very local stuff and I said, ‘Don’t worry chaps. We’re ok. Thank you very much.’ But that’s the one episode. And when I got to York and met them I told them about this. I said, ‘The luckiest thing you’ve ever had because you wouldn’t be here at all. Your father wouldn’t have been here at all.’ I remember him. Nice chap. Air gunner.
CU: I think he was your wireless operator.
BB: Sorry?
CU: He was your wireless operator.
BB: Was he? Was he not an air [pause] Yes. He was a wireless operator. You’re quite right. He wasn’t a gunner.
CU: But you had a story about him taking out the earphones or something.
BB: He used to do that as soon as he heard the flak. He used to hear, ‘I can hear the flak,’ and he would take his earphones out so he couldn’t hear it. Very sensible [laughs] There was no harm in flak. Flak never did any harm. A few holes in the aircraft but nothing to worry about. Flak was alright unless it was predicted. If it was predicted you were dead. But you didn’t get, you didn’t out of the flow. If you got out of the flow alone you would get predicted, radar predicted. Then you were dead. But luckily that didn’t happen to me. But anyway, yes that’s the one episode I still think about before I go to bed at night. It really was. It really was. That was a close call. That was a close call. Now, where are we getting to now?
JS: How, how, how did you get on with the rest of your crew?
BB: Oh, terrific. Splendid. I wasn’t as matey as I should have been I don’t think, in retrospect and I haven’t met any of them since. Just at the end of the war Halifaxes stopped of course but we were still fighting the Japanese so they, and then we converted as a squadron on to Dakotas. I haven’t mentioned this yet. I’ve been flying Dakotas in Transport Command so for me it was easy and I got on to that. And then I got diarrhoea, bad diarrhoea and luckily, luckily I escaped the posting to India. I’d had two and a half years in the Middle East anyway. I didn’t really need to go to India and again I think my father had a quiet word somewhere because I was [laughs] I was demobbed very early. So in 1946 right at the beginning I was let off. Got out. I resumed a very different career as you will see from my CV. Very different. So, there we are. That’s where we got too really. That’s about all the flying bit, I think. I now hate flying. I won’t go anywhere near it. If I [laughs] if I can keep away from an aeroplane I’ll keep away. I don’t like them. They’re not natural at all. They’re not, nothing like a bird. They are just nasty, mechanical devices. Anyway, that’s another matter. Shall we look at this and see what I’ve missed? [pause] Right [pause] Seems to cover it, I think.
JS: Ok. So the squadron was at Elvington. Is that correct?
BB: Yes it was. And we were at Full Sutton. We moved from Elvington. At Elvington I think it was the [pause], no. The French. The French followed on at Elvington. The French took it over and we then went to Full Sutton. It was at Full Sutton when I joined it. The French. Not my favourite characters. In bombing we were always briefed of course to fly at a certain height and if you were in a top height you were nice and easy. You were not going to get bombed on. If you were in the bottom of the line you could get bombed on, and I remember going over one, one raid and I said all right to [unclear] in the top lane. No problem. I looked up. Just before we got to the target bomb doors opened. I looked. There was a bloody French squadron all up above. They believe in it you see. The French don’t queue up [laughs] They said, ‘No. We can’t be, can’t be down there. We have to be — ’ [laughs] the bombs whistled down, went literally between my main plane and my tail plane. They always used to turn over on the way down. I never knew that until I saw them. But anyway that was a lucky business. The French haven’t been my favourite citizens ever since I must confess [laughs] Not, not cricket. Definitely not cricket. So, anyway that’s what happened. The French took over at Elvington and we went. We had Full Sutton. A nice place to be.
JS: What was Full Sutton like as a base?
BB: Very nice. Pleasant. Basic but, we were in Nissen huts of course. We were sleeping in Nissen huts. Nothing fancy about it but —
CU: You had your girlfriend’s in York.
BB: Yes. I had a girlfriend in York which took up most of my time when I wasn’t flying. Nice woman. She must have been, must have died years ago actually. Most people have [laughs] Oh dear. There’s not many left of my confabs as it were. Anyway.
JS: So, how did you get to and from York from Elvington?
BB: Well, I was never at Elvington.
JS: Oh, sorry. I mean, sorry at Full Sutton.
BB: No. I was at, I went straight to Full Sutton. Yeah.
CU: I thought you had a bicycle?
BB: Sorry?
CU: Did you not use a bicycle?
BB: No. I had a car. I had a car on the squadron. That brought back something. No. I don’t know what that was, something flashed by [pause] No. That’s about it I think.
JS: Thank you.
BB: Anything else?
JS: No. Thank you very much for that. That’s been, that’s been a really interesting history.
BB: I hope so.
JS: And some, some interesting thoughts in that. Thank you very much.
BB: Well, I don’t know, fairly explosive normally, most of them. Can I have the rest that we’ve got? The photographs.
[pause]
JS: That’s great. So you certainly had a a variety of locations and aircraft.
BB: Yes. Absolutely.
JS: To go in effect from Transport Command to Bomber Command and then back to Dakotas again at the end.
BB: Oh, absolutely. Quite a lot. Yes. The Dakota is a marvellous aeroplane. Absolutely fantastic. They’re still flying. The same aircraft. They haven’t varied it at all. Used to fly through sandstorms and never had an engine problem. Nothing. Marvellous. Marvellous aeroplane.
CU: You think Halifaxes are better than Lancaster as well.
BB: Oh yes, if you want to compare the two. The Halifax was a far better. A far better aeroplane from the crew’s point of view. Faster rate of climb. Much better aeroplane.
JS: I think, I think I’ve heard that from a number of —
BB: Really?
JS: Halifax crews, yes
BB: They preferred them. No question about that. There’s nothing. Anyway. Now, this was a thing they asked Association. Nickels. This was the latest one. Nickels, Nickels we used to drop on Berlin. On Germany you know.
JS: I looked.
BB: Yeah.
JS: I had a look at the website.
BB: Yeah, very good, very good.
JS: The Association website.
BB: Some very good stuff. Yeah.
JS: Quite, quite extensive. Great. Well, thank you very much.
BB: It’s very good actually.
JS: And I will just stop the recording.
BB: That’s a spare. You can take that one.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bill Ballantyne
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-06-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABallantyneWM190614, PBallantyneWM1901
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:28:02 audio recording
Creator
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James Sheach
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Ballantyne was in his first year at Cambridge University and a member of the Air Squadron when war was declared out in 1939. Upon joining the air force, he was posted to South Africa, where he trained as a pilot on Tiger Moths. He joined 267 Squadron based in Egypt, and completed Transport Command duties by delivering supplies to the front-line, and returning wounded servicemen. He describes how his lack of fulfilment in this role motivated him to volunteer for Bomber Command. Ballantyne trained on Oxfords and Wellingtons at RAF Lossiemouth, before joining 77 Squadron, based at RAF Full Sutton. He recollects the events of an operation to Goch where, after missing the target they turned around and nearly hit a Lancaster head-on. He also describes preferring flying a Halifax to a Lancaster, the basic conditions of his Nissen hut, and visiting his girlfriend in York. He was demobilised in 1946 and resumed a career serving as an international lawyer in the Middle East. Ballantyne notes that in retrospect he is not proud of his role bombing civilians, and also recalls meeting the descendants of his wireless operator at a 77 Squadron Memorial Club meeting, who thanked him for returning their relative home safely.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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South Africa
North Africa
Egypt
Great Britain
Scotland--Moray
England--Yorkshire
England--York
Germany
Germany--Goch
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1945
1946
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
77 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
mid-air collision
military living conditions
Nissen hut
Oxford
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Lossiemouth
recruitment
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/942/11301/AMacraeWM161116.1.mp3
84f04c8bc5c17a43471fbbf8d7624df3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Macrae, Bill
W M Macrae
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bill Macrae (1913 - 2019, 3031774, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 104 Squadron in North Africa and Italy.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Macrae, WM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincolnshire, UK and it’s part of the Oral History Programme. I’m the interviewer. I’m John Horsburgh and today I’m interviewing Bill Macrae. Bill was a pilot and he served with 104 Squadron RAF and he was flying Wellington bombers. And he was part of the Desert Air Force. North Africa and Italy campaigns. So, it’s a very interesting story. The interview is at Bill’s home in Chatswood in New South Wales and today is the 16th of November 2016. So, good afternoon Bill. I’m very pleased to be interviewing you for this. Why don’t we start at the start? The, your date of birth and where you were born and we’ll take it from there.
BM: I was born on the 14th of January 1913 at a place called Coraki which is up the far north coast near Lismore. On a farm. And my earliest memory was of the end of the First World War when late one evening a man came galloping down the main road singing out, “The war is over. The war is over.” And I remember very well also when all the soldiers came back where they put on a big return party at the local showground. And I remember there one of them picked me up and threw me up in the air and I boasted about that ever since. That’s the first time I was ever airborne. After that I went to a local school. About ten pupils in it I think, and teaching was rather elementary I suppose but we got the basics. And from there we moved to another farm up at Kyogle which is about, a town about thirty miles further north. And I was there until we came to Sydney in about 1923 and I went to school in Sydney. And at that time in 1926 or ‘7 the Depression came along and that’s one of my main regrets in life that my father lost his money and he had to go back to the bush and start again. And I had to get a job which I was very fortunate. I had an old uncle who had been in the Bank of New South Wales and he got me a job there. And none of my friends had a job. And people don’t realise how dire the straits of everyone else was in the workforce. I think unemployment was about twenty, twenty five percent. And in those day there were very few women working. But I remember the, I started work in Sydney in March 1929 in a two storey building in George Street with a wooden wire cage lift with a bit of rope used as a thing to lower it up and down. And I worked there for about three or four or five years and in 1937 the bank decided to send me to London for three years. Which was one of the greatest breaks I’ve had in life. And the general manager of the bank was Sir Alfred Davidson and he had the idea I think that the, a lot of young fellows in the bank were hillbillies. It would be a good thing if they had a bit of overseas experience. So he sent quite a few of us over there which I think was a very expensive exercise and which rather got him out of favour with the directors. He was wasting money on us really because we went over there completely unsupervised and we sort of had a tourist time. Not having to do much hard work.
JH: Meanwhile Bill was there a sense that there was trouble? When you went over there there was trouble brewing in Germany?
BM: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. I realised that the, there would be a war and I decided at that stage to learn a bit of German. So I went along at night to learn German. And I got to the stage I could understood Hitler’s ravings. And I also went over to Germany on holidays in 1939 and lived with a German family in Munich. And I gathered there that the Germans were right behind Hitler because he gave them hope. As the lady of the house where I was boarding said, ‘Well, he gave us hope,’ and said, ‘Otherwise we were completely —’ the biggest mistake of the war was the Germans were treated very harshly in the Treaty of Versailles. And they were a very proud race and they had no future. And she said, ‘Hitler gave us a future,’ she said, ‘We didn’t agree with him. And we didn’t like Goering. We thought he was a joke. But he gave our kids Hitler Youth ideology.’ Which was very, very good. The young Germans really impressed me. I mean as a tourist they’d see, if you asked them anywhere they’d not only point it out to you but they’d go with you. And very, very well mannered. And the Hitler Youth I think were completely mislead and indoctrinated by Hitler which was very, very unfortunate. But I liked the young Germans and I loved their singing. I loved their music. And I loved their general method of morality which was very high. Which I’m afraid at that time in England you had the shocker yobbos and the young people there didn’t impress you as opposed to the young Germans. At any rate I backed the wrong horse. I got back to England and a bit later on of course war broke out in September ’39. And I was very sympathetic to the German cause and I very easily could have become indoctrinated by the German ideals I think. At any rate. I decided that war might be over by Christmas so I thought I’d better sort of do something about it. I went along to Australia House and I was very fortunate there to have met a military man. Captain Pollard. He later became quite a good, he later got a knighthood and he later became a general but at that stage he was just a captain in the army.
JH: An Australian.
BM: And he said to me —
JH: Australian army or British army?
BM: Australian army.
JH: Australian army. Yeah.
BM: He was attached temporarily on a course with the British army.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate he said there was no Australian army starting up in London, ‘You’ll have to go back to Australia.’ And he said, ‘But I can get you into the, New Zealand has started a little army. Either that or the British army.’ At any rate I said, ‘You’d better make it the British army,’ because New Zealanders didn’t like Australians very much in those days. And, I don’t know. I don’t think that persists but then I think they regarded us as the descendants of convicts [laughs] They thought they were a bit superior to Australians I think. So, I decided not to join the New Zealand Army. They started an anti-tank regiment there and I saw them in training later on. But I was very amazed then within a matter of two weeks I suddenly got a notice, call up notice to report to Woolwich. The headquarters of the artillery and to join an officer training course for the artillery which, back to when I’d left Australia as I said if I’d ever join the British army and become an officer was completely out of my mind. But at any rate I joined the British Army. Trained with them at Aldershot. South of London there. And graduated as a lieutenant, Royal Artillery in March 1940 and was posted back to Woolwich to go to France. And at that stage we sat at Woolwich for about a month and that was when the Germans attacked in France. And that’s when the Germans sort of over ran the British Army in France.
JH: So you could have ended up on the beach.
BM: Yeah. So I never —
JH: Yeah.
BM: I never got to France. Which was a bit fortunate. But I got posted to a British artillery regiment between Canterbury and Dover. And I was down there during the Battle of Britain and wonderful front line seats of the battles that raged overhead in the air. And that gave me a yearning to get into the air force I’m afraid. And a notice came around in the artillery regiment. They’d decided to start up a thing called a flying OP. Operational Post training for directing gunfire from the air. Then I put my name in and as a result of that I got posted to an air force station at Woodley.
JH: Woodley.
BM: Which was west of London. I remember —
JH: Was that an —
BM: On the day that I —
JH: Yeah.
BM: That day up there it took me all day to get through London. It had been damaged by bombing. But I got to Woodley about dusk. And as I was walking across the aerodrome to go to the mess hut there which was an inn on the edge of the aerodrome a Hurricane was circling around at zero feet. And it finally landed and almost ran into a hedge. And I hurried across and the pilot clambered out and a very strange language, ‘Where am I? Where am I?’ And he was a Pole. He’d been up fighting the Germans and got lost. And as a result of that he stayed with us that night.
JH: Yes.
BM: You can imagine. We heard his whole life story.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he was really angry with the Germans. Really, really angry. And his history was that he’d been in the Polish Air Force and they were knocked out of the war more or less overnight. First when war was first declared.
JH: Well they had cavalry charges, didn’t they?
BM: And he went down. Got out through Italy.
JH: Yes.
BM: To Gibraltar. Then got up back to England. And he trained then with the RAF. And I might say they were a gallant mob the Polish aircrew. Very gallant.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were I’d say better lot of aeroplanes and I remember my rear gunner who had earlier on been posted to a Polish fighter squadron as a gunner in a Boulton Paul Defiant, that was a single engine fighter with a turret just behind the pilot. And he said the pilot there said, ‘If you don’t shoot them down I’ll ram them.’ And he said, ‘He meant it.’ At any rate the rear gunner was very happy to train with a timid pilot like me, I think.
JH: So, Bill, just, just run me through the type of aircraft you flew during training. Did you start with the, for example Tiger Moth?
BM: I trained on a single engine Miles Magister. I remember the first couple of flights very well because it was December then and there was a frost on the ground. You could see the River Thames below. You could see a village there with smoke coming up and you could see Windsor Castle in the background. I said to the, I was flying at the time, he was sitting in front and you communicated by a speaking tube.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I said to him, ‘What a marvellous sight this is.’ I was completely wrapped up in the view. He said, ‘I’ve got it,’ he took over the ruddy plane and put into a dive. Straight down to the village below and said, he said, ‘Do you see that church down there? Do you see the graveyard? If you don’t watch your airspeed that’s where you’ll finish up.’ [laughs] That’s when I found the number one in flying is your airspeed. You’ve got to watch it. Watch it. Watch it. Coming in to land. Taking off. All the time.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: That was my first. And that was the approach I used when I was instructing people flying. That’s the approach I used with them too later on.
JH: It sounds like a very good tip you got there. It stood you in good stead.
BM: At any rate I didn’t, didn’t, wasn’t posted back then to my original place. I was posted back to Woolwich. And I sat there for a couple of weeks. At that stage there were quite a few air raids on London.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I remember there was an unexploded bomb landed on the Woolwich College. We were all evacuated while they dealt with it. They dealt with it by boring a hole in it both sides with a drill clamped to the thing. And then they squirted water in to sort of do the — get rid of the explosive. I remember that quite well.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then I got a posted from there down to the mouth of the Thames to Shoeburyness which was a medium and heavy artillery training regiment. And I trained people there.
JH: Yes.
BM: And got very friendly with the colonel in charge of the place and I told him how I’d love to get in to the bloody air force. I’d already done some flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he said, ‘Well, I’ve got a friend at the war house.’
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he said, ‘If you like I’ll give you a letter of introduction to him.’ And he gave me a couple of days off to go up to the war house which had been evacuated to Cheltenham.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he was there. A series of big huts. They kept all the army records there.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate I went up there and I went out and I met the major man. His friend. And as a result of that I got a transfer to the air force.
JH: That’s marvellous. So did you then —
BM: I must say —
JH: Go to an OTU? Officer training unit in the air force.
BM: No. That was [pause] they sent me to another Elementary Flying Course.
JH: Oh yes. Of course.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But I might say the reason I was popular with the man at Shoeburyness was, well it was on the shore there it was set right the tide would go out over the sand and mud flats as far as the eye could see and then the tide would come in lapping. And I realised no one had been fishing there for years. And there was a boat shed there with a little rowing boat.
JH: Yes.
BM: I got the rowing boat out at the right tide. I went out and I caught flounder by the dozen.
JH: Good Lord.
BM: I was feeding the bloody mess with fish. Rationing was on but not very severe.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I was very popular with the CO as a result of it. That’s how I got into the air force [laughs]
JH: That’s an amazing —
BM: That’s when I got posted to a —
JH: Amazing story. Yeah.
BM: Posted from the place by the sea to, to a college at Cambridge.
JH: Cambridge.
BM: Another. Yes.
JH: In Cambridge or —
BM: In Cambridge. Yeah.
JH: Oh right. Yeah.
BM: Not the airfield.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It was an initial training place where they were marching people around who had just joined the air force.
JH: Yes. A bit of square bashing.
BM: I explained to the man in charge and as a result of that he got me moved from there after a couple of weeks.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But it was a very pleasant interlude. I joined with the elders at the dining mess and I had a very pleasant couple of weeks at Cambridge.
JH: Yes.
BM: Went punting on the Backs and it was very pleasant. At any rate I got posted then to another Elementary Flying School at Peterborough.
JH: Yes.
BM: I went there for another couple of months and from there I was posted to the next stage which was Flying Training School. Elementary to begin with. Then you went to a flying training. If you were going in to bombers you went over, the training place was twin engine planes which — that’s where I got posted.
JH: Yes.
BM: Cranwell had twin-engined Oxfords.
JH: Yes.
BM: Airspeed Oxfords. Which is a very pleasant aeroplane to fly.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I trained on that and a couple of things there that come to mind. When I arrived in 1941, about a week before Whittle’s jet had been flying there for the first time. It was the talk of the station. Highly secret of course. You were told not on any account to mention this but I heard all about it but I actually didn’t see it flying. But that’s where it first flew. It was housed in a hangar away at the far end of the aerodrome and guarded by civilian police apparently. They wouldn’t trust the air force guards for the secrecy angle.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate it took a couple of years for that to be developed. If you read Whittle’s book I think they got the Rover people to start trying to develop it. They didn’t do much and then they handed it over to Rolls Royce and it got going within about twelve months after that. But of course the Germans had a jet flying in 1938 and they had the same experience. They realised that it would take a couple of years to develop and Hitler decided to adapt the scientific wing when it was flying because it would take a couple of years before it could. But as it turned out it took about three years before the Germans were able to develop it. And it took the British about three years too.
JH: So it became operational during.
BM: Before they got [unclear] Yes. Yes.
JH: I didn’t know that. It’s interesting.
BM: But that was one of the highlights of my flying training. Another highlight was I wore the King’s uniform there. The main building at Cranwell, a very long building with a big tower in the middle and a small tower on the two wings either side. We were in the cinema one night and suddenly the whole building shook. Someone said, ‘Oh, we’ve been bombed,’ but we hadn’t been bombed. An old Whitley on night flying had landed and hit one of the little towers at the end of the long building. And the building was on fire. And we all raced out of course and they said, ‘Get the pictures out.’ In the corridors there they had a lot of very valuable pictures which had been evacuated from the National Gallery in London.
JH: Some old Masters.
BM: Yes. Priceless pictures. We carted the pictures from that wing of the building and in the main entrance to the building was the King’s uniform in a glass case. Well, the glass case, we got that open and after the fire was put out we each wore the King’s uniform and saluted each other [laughs]
JH: Well deserved.
BM: But the only survivor of the crash was the rear gunner. The rest of the crew bought it. And the Whitley of course was completely burned out.
JH: Yes. So, Bill, at this stage were you earmarked as a pilot or —
BM: Yes.
JH: Could have been a navigator.
BM: You were earmarked when you went to Cranwell as a bomber pilot. Twin engine training.
JH: Yeah. So you passed all the aptitude and —
BM: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: You were heading in that direction.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And you did a bit of night flying there but you more or less did about fifty or sixty hour a day flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Instructing. And then you did about ten hours night flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which wasn’t a lot.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you didn’t know much about night flying really. And another thing at Cranwell when I was there when they were experimenting with a flare path called sodium flares. Which were a flare path for these I don’t know what sodium meant but there was a thing where you put on goggles and you could see the flares, but you had dark glasses. You couldn’t see anything else. But they never, I had a couple of hours trying to learn night flying on that.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it was abandoned because the main problem as I saw it your goggles fogged up.
JH: Yes.
BM: You were sweating with. And if you tried to land looking —
JH: Yes.
BM: Seeing the flarepath ready for, you were sweating profusely and your goggles fogged up very quickly.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate —
JH: Yes.
BM: I got passed out of that without much trouble.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I was still then in the army. Still wearing the army uniform.
JH: Really.
BM: And I had the job of marching the bloody cadet trainees around. But as a result I was, dined with the officers.
JH: Yes.
BM: And got to know the chief flying instructor very well. And he was going to get me posted on to Stirlings. They were the buzz thing then. An enormous aircraft.
JH: Yes.
BM: Just coming in to service and everyone thought that, you know the war winner. As it turned out the Stirlings were a dead loss.
JH: They were short lived weren’t they?
BM: Short lived.
JH: Yeah.
BM: They took them off operations.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Put them on glider towing and on training. And as an operational plane they had no height. I think they could only get above about twelve thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were slow and cumbersome and the losses were very heavy.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: At any rate from there I got posted to an operational training place. Fortunately it wasn’t a Stirling one.
JH: Where was that?
BM: It was a Wellington one.
JH: Where was that?
BM: At Harwell.
JH: Harwell. Yes. In Essex.
BM: About fifty miles west of London I suppose.
JH: Yes. Harwell.
BM: Very pleasant. It was a grass. No fixed firm runway. It had been a peacetime station. And very pleasant place.
JH: Yeah.
BM: A very pleasant place to live.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the countryside was very pleasant indeed. From there you crewed up. You got your crew there.
JH: You crewed. Tell me about your, your crewing up. How did that happen?
BM: Just put in a big assembly room. They put about a half dozen pilots, about a dozen front gunners, a dozen rear gunners and a dozen navigators, a dozen wireless operators. They let you sort yourselves out and you formed your own crew. I don’t know how. But it wasn’t a very efficient system I think. But I got lumbered — no I wasn’t lumbered. But we got together with a very good navigator. Had been a student, a university student. He was good. We’d got a very good wireless operator. He’d been a boy apprentice in the air force. He was the only sort of skilled member of our crew I’d say. And the two gunners. Front gunner, he was a lorry driver but very little education. But the rear gunner was a very decent English chap. He was well educated and had been working as a welder and his family were, and a reserved occupation but he’d joined up and his family were very annoyed with him for joining the air force. He’d joined up and he’d got posted as a gunner to a Polish squadron where he served for a while and then he got posted to our crowd. That was our crew. They were all English.
JH: Yes.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would I, would I be right in thinking you were the most senior?
BM: I was the most senior.
JH: In terms of age.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah
BM: Both in age. They were all about nineteen or twenty.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I was known as the old man. And we had a second pilot too but —
JH: Yeah.
BM: He was a bit dumb I’m afraid.
JH: Yes.
BM: He was the only chap in the crew that I was a bit worried about. The second pilot.
JH: Your co-pilot. Yeah.
BM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: Was he also the flight engineer in a, on a Wellington?
BM: No. That was later.
JH: Yes. Ok.
BM: That happened when you went to four engines.
JH: Right. Yeah.
BM: But —
JH: Yes.
BM: We trained there and as I say we did day flying. Day flying was very pleasant.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The syllabus was you did five day cross-country flights.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the first one you went with an instructor. The next —
JH: Yes.
BM: Four you did on your own. But you flew across to Northern Ireland, up the west of England. Up the coast.
JH: Yes.
BM: Up around the top of Scotland and down the east coast of England.
JH: Yes.
BM: When the weather was good — very pleasant.
JH: Yes.
BM: And at that early stage of the war you weren’t that well supervised. Later on you had to fly strictly according to time and had to log everything in.
JH: Yes.
BM: You couldn’t deviate or fly low as you could in the days we did.
JH: Yes.
BM: I remember I got a very, very bad sort of introduction to flying with the first cross-country. I went with an operational pilot. He’d just come off operations.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And I remember we flew across the north of Wales there at Northfleet and I remember horses bolting sheds and he said, ‘Make sure if you’re low flying,’ the advice he gave me, ‘Reel in your trailing aerial.’ The wireless op had let out a trailing aerial which was trailing behind about fifty or a hundred feet of wire with lead weights on it to keep it below.
JH: Yes.
BM: He said, ‘If you fly low and you break tiles on a roof with your trailing aerial,’ he said, ‘You’re gone,’ he said, ‘You’re court martialled.’ Low flying was a court martial offence.
JH: Yes.
BM: Quite rightly. It was completely stupid.
JH: Yes.
BM: That was a very, very bad example to give the crew.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Because I’m very sure we saw the result of that at night when you came off the day flying and had a drink with the rest of the crew who’d been flying. I remember one crew reckoned, ‘Oh our pilot flew that low over the sea he was able to stir up the water with his prop tips.’ And a couple of days later they were never heard of again. I’m very sure he hit the water. I don’t know.
JH: Yes.
BM: But that —
JH: Yeah.
BM: A very very bad example.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But quite rightly low flying was a court martial offence.
JH: Yes.
BM: And if you got court martialled and got sent to the Glasshouse it was very hard.
JH: Yeah. You —
BM: Very hard.
JH: Yes. You obviously paid heed to that.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Part of your training operations, of your training flights did you do any of these nickel raids?
BM: No. We didn’t do. We didn’t do any nickels.
JH: In Europe where they were dropping pamphlets and that kind of thing
BM: Almost did. I think the weather was bad.
JH: Yes.
BM: That’s why we didn’t get sent on it.
JH: Yes.
BM: But I remember we, we dropped live bombs at that early stage of the war.
JH: Yes.
BM: Later on you only dropped twelve and a half pound practice bombs.
JH: Yes.
BM: We dropped about half a dozen fifty pound bombs.
JH: Yes.
BM: Out in the Bristol Channel.
JH: Yes.
BM: Now, I remember well the take off with that. It was very calm day and they said, grass aerodrome and they were doubtful whether we should go.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the engines were de-rated a bit on the Wellingtons and there was a line of trees at the other end of the aerodrome. At any rate they finally said, ‘Make sure you get off, lift off early and run up your aircraft back to the hedge at the far end of the field.’ At any rate we had no trouble in getting off the ground.
JH: Yes.
BM: No trouble clearing the tree.
JH: Yes.
BM: Then we weren’t climbing. I suddenly realised I hadn’t raised the bloody undercarriage. That’s when I found out — I thought the second pilot should have picked that up.
JH: Yes.
BM: He should have known that.
JH: Ok. Yeah.
BM: And he should have been checking on everything.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But a couple of other things like that happened without, I never really trusted him.
JH: Yes. Ok. Shall we talk about how you were posted to, to Malta.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would that fit in now?
BM: Well, then we were —
JH: Yeah.
BM: Finished our training there after our night flying.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We just missed out on that thousand bomber raid. We were only half way through our night flying. And that thousand bomber, about a third of the planes there were Training Command. About four or five went from our place.
JH: Yes.
BM: Flown by an operational pilot and instructor with a pupil crew. But the pupil crew were almost finished their night flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which we hadn’t done.
JH: Yeah.
BM: So as a result of that I missed that raid.
JH: Can you remember the — I’ll note the date of that? Can you remember the year and date of that bomber, thousand bomber raid?
BM: It was [pause] April. April or May. 1942.
JH: ’42.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Very good propaganda value.
Other: Hitler’s birthday.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then when we finished our training we expected to be posted then to an operational squadron in England. But at that stage Rommel had broken through and was hammering on the gates of Cairo. And they suddenly decided to send a couple of Wellington squadrons out to Cairo. And they gave us a brand new aircraft. And that was the most pleasant flying I’ve ever had. The aircraft was a highly secret one with radar aerials all over it.
JH: Are they the Stickleback?
BM: Stickleback ones.
JH: That’s it. I’ve read about them.
BM: The Mark 8s.
JH: Mark 8.
BM: Mark 8. It was to pick up submarines. Or ships at night. We didn’t know how to operate the radar but at any rate they —
JH: Yeah.
BM: We spent twelve hours flying in the new aircraft. We flew all around England in the brand new aircraft. Very pleasant.
JH: Yes.
BM: And then we got the final word to go to Malta. And we flew down to Portreath down near the south, South West area of London there. The station right on the coast.
JH: In Cornwall.
BM: Cornwall. Yes.
JH: Cornwall. Yes.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We took off from there and they told us to keep well out to sea. Not to get anywhere near the French coast. And to come in late in the day. We took off about seven in the morning I think.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we had no trouble at all. We didn’t sight anything. We kept relatively low. About the best cruising height was about six thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which we were at. And the only danger would have been to run into a German aircraft patrol which was very very remote.
JH: Yes. Did you have any fighter escort going out?
BM: No. No. No.
JH: For a while?
BM: We just kept out to sea.
JH: Yeah. So what was the flying time to — it was —
BM: We got there about —
JH: To Malta wasn’t it?
BM: About, yeah about ten hours.
JH: Ten hours. Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We came in close to the coast of Portugal about three in the afternoon.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we hugged the coast there down to the big bay there where the Battle of Trafalgar took place.
JH: Yes.
BM: And from there suddenly we saw the Rock of Gibraltar looming out of the afternoon sun.
JH: Yes.
BM: And there we had a, a very frightening incident happened.
JH: Really?
BM: I called up the pilots to, ‘Come up and have a look and see the result of your labour,’ and called up the navigator.
JH: Yes.
BM: He came out of his office. And he came up and he was leaning over my shoulder looking out at the Rock of Gibraltar. He put his hand down and turned on the full bloody flaps. Which I didn’t realise.
JH: By mistake.
BM: Suddenly the aircraft’s speed fell away. I didn’t know what had happened. And I had to put the bloody nose down and open the throttles. And I was thinking about getting the, I thought something had gone wrong with the engines or —
JH: Yeah.
BM: I didn’t understand.
JH: Yeah. Loss of airspeed.
BM: I had to tell the wireless operator to send out an SOS. So I was getting prepared to land in the bloody sea and I don’t know how but it occurred to me that the flaps were down. I didn’t realise. I put them up.
JH: Yes. Yeah
BM: Came around and landed [laughs]
JH: Exchanged a few pleasantries no doubt.
BM: So I had a complete sweat. Yeah.
JH: So —
BM: At any rate we spent the night in Gibraltar. Very pleasant. And didn’t get any sleep that night.
JH: Yes.
BM: Didn’t get much sleep the night before in England of course either. And we spent the night there they were blasting into the rock. We were in a Nissen hut at the base of the rock and the blasting was going on all night. And they were also practicing deck landings next door.
JH: Yeah.
BM: So we didn’t get a lot of sleep that night either.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But we took off for Malta the next day at 4 o’clock. Four in the afternoon.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And another aircraft. We decided, a friend of mine had also landed and two of us flew together in formation for a while.
JH: Yes.
BM: On the way to Malta. And suddenly he turned and went back and I didn’t find out ‘til much later in the war.
JH: Yeah.
BM: What had happened. Someone had opened the hatch above the pilot which opened it. You couldn’t close it in flight.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Someone apparently had. I don’t know the second pilot had grabbed the lever there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The hatch had come open to he had to go back and start afresh. And he didn’t arrive in Malta until we’d left the next day.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I found out later the big danger with landing at Malta too was that the man in charge in Malta was, could keep you there and he could hand your aircraft over to someone else.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he could keep you there to do operations from Malta which were very unfriendly of course.
JH: Yes.
BM: So Malta was a place you didn’t want to stay at. At any rate we got to Malta about ten or eleven at night and they’d warned us that, before we left that, be careful. You’re not very far from Sicily there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which was German controlled. And the wireless operator would have to contact Malta and get a thing called a QDM. That’s a direction.
JH: Yeah.
BM: To fly to Malta. So we’d check up. It was just about a thousand miles journey.
JH: Yeah.
BM: He had to, that wireless operator had to check up that you were at Malta. And they said be careful the Germans could send you a message directing you to Sicily.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any right the flight there was very pleasant. We were flying at about six thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: And my heart sank when we were about half an hour from Malta and the whole of the sea below clouded over. And they’d told us when we got to Malta they’d put a couple of searchlights when we got there about ten or eleven at night. And when we got to Malta the whole place was clouded over and I was circling around for about five minutes ‘til I finally saw the searchlights through the cloud. And I came down and the, there was high ground in Malta. About eight hundred feet I think.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And got under the cloud at about a thousand feet and there was the runway. I came around and landed there and very gratefully. And the landing wasn’t bad which I was very much afraid of. And we taxied around. We were met by the ground crew. They were in military uniform. Not the air force blue. I thought, God we’re at the wrong [laughs] we’re at the German aerodrome but it wasn’t of course. But they were mainly interested if we had any sandwiches left which we had, and any, or and any cigarettes. I’d taken the trouble of buying a thousand cigarettes when I left to hand out when we got to Malta. And I told them that in Gibraltar, would I take more cigarettes? They said no the crew that takes those generally doesn’t get to Malta. Apparently there was a bit of a hoodoo about anyone carting stuff to Malta.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bad luck evidently.
JH: Bad luck.
BM: So, I only took about a thousand cigarettes to give to the mess when we got there.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: There’s a, we got to the air, they told us, ‘When we get there on no account,’ they said, ‘Your path on the aerodrome is at daybreak but don’t leave the aerodrome unattended err your aircraft unattended. You might find all your parachutes have disappeared if you do.’ They said, ‘We haven’t got guards on the aerodrome.’ Guards were on, they had bay, sort of shelters for the aeroplanes off the aerodrome. Horse shoe shaped construction of sandbags. Well, you taxied your aeroplane off and they pushed it into these shelters. And they said, ‘Stay with the aircraft. Get someone to stay with the aerodrome err the aeroplane until daybreak and then they’ll come out and you’ll have to taxi into a shelter.’ But navigator and I then went in to have a bit to eat at the mess there and when we got there, there was a bloody party going on. Incredible thing. And all the pilots and we were welcomed in because we’d just arrived in our flying suits. They came around. The pilots were all fighter pilots and the reason they were there was a crew in a Beaufort that day had been shot down and been taken prisoner on a Greek island and it had been there for about a week and the Germans, an Italian seaplane called to pick them up to fly them back to Italy. And when they were in the air the three people from, the captives overcame the bloody guards in the aeroplane and made it fly to Malta. And we saw it in the harbour the next day. A float plane. And that was the party.
JH: What a story.
BM: Yeah. I think the pilot, the captive pilot was a South African. And there was an Australian among them. And there were two or three others. But they were having this party. And the story goes with one of them said, evidently when they were captives the food there was much better at Malta. One said, ‘The food there was good. We must do this again.’
JH: Yeah. I like that.
BM: But we saw the plane the next day.
JH: Yeah.
BM: In the harbour there. But it was pure bloody Hollywood. The whole thing.
JH: Yeah. So, what, what was it like on, on Malta? Was Malta, was the feeling of this is an outpost. Heavily defended.
BM: Yeah. We were only there. We stayed the night then. We went back to the aeroplane and slept in it. In the plane. At daybreak then taxied in to the shelter.
JH: Because you were heading for Egypt wasn’t it?
BM: We were heading for Egypt.
JH: Yes.
BM: We were only there a stop off. For a refuel stop. So they came and collected us at daybreak and very foolishly we spent the bloody day bloody sightseeing around the Malta instead of having a sleep.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bloody crazy.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it was too good an opportunity. We actually got a taxi there which was a horse drawn vehicle. And there were two or three air raids during the day. You could hear the machine guns going up in the air and this fellow driving around in this horse drawn taxi. But at any rate we reported back to the aerodrome about 4 o’clock and they briefed us then and said, ‘Well, the weather’s good. Nothing to worry about there. The only danger is units of the Italian fleet might be somewhere on your route when you fly from here to Cairo.’ And it was just as we get a thousand miles from Cairo, a thousand from Gib. At any rate we, they said come back, and just get aboard the aircraft and taxi it out.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Wait at the end of the runway. Just before dark. And on, if there’s an air raid comes along get off the ground straight away but otherwise stand by waiting there. And if you see us flash a green get on the runway and take off straight away. We sat on the plane there and suddenly three people turned up and said, ‘We’re your passengers.’ Two of them were two Dutch seamen.
JH: Yes.
BM: And a lieutenant from submarines which were based in Malta.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were passengers to go back with us to Cairo.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate we were sitting there waiting and suddenly the bloody air raid siren went. And people in the control place flashed green at us to get going and —
JH: And you were on the tarmac.
BM: I was waiting at the edge of the, the edge of the runway there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And I taxied on. At that moment two Beaufighters which had been in sandbagged shelters nearby they came out at high speed and turned on to the runway, took off and climbed at about forty five degrees
JH: Yeah.
BM: They were night fighters apparently. But any rate I got on the runway and I thought I’d do a thing that I tried to, I opened up too quickly and if you’re not careful you swing on take-off.
JH: Yeah.
BM: You’ve got to often open one throttle before the others.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I swung right off the bloody runway and I had to turn back, taxi back and start again. In the meantime the fellow was flashing a green light at me to get going. I got off the next time without any trouble. We flew out to sea. They said, ‘Fly out to sea at five hundred feet before you set course.’ You could see that air raid in progress. Quite a sight. Cannons firing and searchlights and —
JH: Yes.
BM: Oh dear.
JH: What were they targeting? The Germans.
BM: We then set course for Malta and the main problem was keeping awake.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And part of the time I had the second pilot flying. Him I was, I didn’t trust him much. So I had to try and stay awake. I remember standing up a lot of the time. And with hindsight what I should have done, bloody crazy was called up this flight lieutenant fellow to stand by to see we didn’t go to sleep.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We had a bit of a scare once when we, there was a bit of moon and there was some shadows on the ocean. We thought this is the Italian fleet.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it wasn’t.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then we didn’t have, there was no wind apparently the whole journey. I think the navigator said he was on the one course the whole way.
JH: Yes. So that air space between Malta and Egypt. Was that controlled by the Germans to a large extent?
BM: Yes. It was. The Italians.
JH: Yeah. The Italians. Yeah.
BM: The Italian fleet were in charge more or less. But they weren’t. It wasn’t the Italian fleet. They were knocked out largely by the Swordfish aircraft in that air raid.
JH: Yes.
BM: They knocked out half the bloody Italian fleet. I’ve forgotten the name of the place. The Italian port they raided. But that was the old Swordfish from an aircraft carrier. At any rate nothing happened then until we were about just at daybreak. We were about a hundred miles from Cairo and I spotted a submarine on the ocean ahead of us. You could see it in the path of light from the sun which was just appearing then and I suddenly thought it might be a bloody submarine —
JH: Friendly or otherwise.
BM: In trouble or something. It shouldn’t be on the surface. Why was it on the surface? And as we dropped near it started flashing a very fast Morse code as the Naval people did then. Flashing a message at us. I couldn’t, it was too fast for me so I called the wireless operator up, ‘Better come up and read their message they’re flashing.’ And I had visions of this crippled submarine wanting help and I thought well we’ll send a distress beacon. Tell them they’re here. But the message they sent us was, ‘Good morning.’ [laughs] From that we went on and landed in Cairo. And at that stage I was completely half drunk with fatigue. I remember when I got out of the aircraft I sat down on the ground and went to sleep. I woke up and on the ground you see beside me a fellow with a revolver around his waist, a cowboy hat on and flying boots on. It was an American fighter pilot who’d been ferrying an aircraft across Africa from the west coast of Africa. That’s the only way they got aircraft there. They took it by plane to the west of Africa then.
JH: Yes.
BM: And they flew them across Africa.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he’d flown a, I think a, oh a fighter plane across. They flew across in formation.
JH: Yes.
BM: With an escort. But any rate from there we got down to. They woke me up and said, ‘Would you fly the aircraft down to the Suez Canal,’ which very foolishly I said yes. And I took off again and flew down to, down to the squadron. 148 Squadron. Based on the Canal.
JH: Yes.
BM: And that’s where we began operations.
JH: 104
BM: No. 148.
JH: Oh 148.
BM: 148.
JH: Yeah. Ok. Yeah. 148.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. So that’s, that’s where you started off.
BM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And the target then was Tobruk. Tobruk was the only sort of port on the African coast which was giving supplies to the Germans who were on the outskirts of Cairo by then. At Alemein. And we were, our main target was Tobruk.
JH: Yes
BM: So far as they —
JH: Which was in German hands at that time
BM: The Germans were —
JH: Yeah
BM: Bringing in to Tobruk. Yeah.
JH: Yes. Yes. So you were targeting the supply ships coming in.
BM: Coming into Tobruk. Yeah.
JH: All the defences.
BM: The war was there too.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yes.
BM: To begin with I think we did about eight trips to Tobruk.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which was quite a distance. It was about six or seven hours flight.
JH: So your, tell me about your first operation. Was that one of these Tobruk raids?
BM: Yes. I remember that very well. Went as a second pilot to an experienced pilot. Flight Lieutenant Moore was our pilot.
JH: Yeah. You were the dickie.
BM: An experienced pilot.
JH: You say the dickie is it? You were the dickie.
BM: Yeah. I was second pilot. Yes.
JH: Yes. Ok.
BM: Very pleasant. You had no responsibility. You just sat there and watched everything. And when we got to Tobruk they had quite a few — they had about a dozen anti-aircraft guns there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which started firing at you when you got near there.
JH: Bill, tell me was this a daylight raid or night raid.
BM: Night raid. All night.
JH: All night.
BM: All night.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: At any rate I remember he was the fella who, he did the bombing run. The navigator was the bomb aimer then in those days. Navigator bomb aimer. He was down in the bomb bay to drop the bombs but the, this second, this instructor pilot he directed the run in. You know, ‘Right. Right. Left. Left. Centre.’ And then he said to the bomb aimer —
[telephone ringing]
BM: Hello. Hello. Hello. Just hold on a minute. Just tell them it’s my phone. See what they want. I can’t. I’ve got hearing aids in.
JH: Oh. Hello. This is John Horsburgh here. I’m actually interviewing Bill at the moment. Can I take a message? Yes. Yes. I’m interviewing him now. Yeah. Can I take your number and he’ll call you back? [delete] ok I’ll get, I’ll get Mr McRae to call you back.
BM: Tell him I’ll call him back
JH: Ok. Thank you, Justin.
BM: Thanks.
JH: We were, we were talking about your first operation.
BM: My first bombing run.
JH: Yeah. Your first bombing run. Yeah
BM: He called up the pilot and said, ‘I’ve done this trip three or four few times. Let me. Let me drop the bombs.’ So instead of letting the bloody navigator direct us onto the target he put the plane into a dive and roared across Tobruk at high speed, pulled the bomb toggle and dropped all the bombs in one thing.
JH: The whole lot. The whole string.
BM: The whole lot. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which was completely against all our instruction in training. And that sort of thing you never thought of doing. But at any rate when we got back we got debriefed at the debriefing we didn’t mention this. Had we done so he might have been in big trouble I think.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: But you were graded LMF if you did that sort of thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: But the navigator was very upset about it. So was I [laughs] But that was my first bombing. I did another trip with another crew another night but they did the right thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: We got caught in the searchlights that night too which was very unpleasant. But that was my first experience of a bombing raid. Which we didn’t report to the authorities.
JH: Just between you and I this is [laughs] Ok.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yes.
BM: Yeah. Don’t mention it [laughs]
JH: No. We won’t [laughs] Tell me about the first operation when you were actually in control of the plane on the bomb run.
[phone ringing]
JH: Shall I? Hello, Bill McRae’s phone. John Horsborough. I’m actually interviewing Bill at the moment. Yeah. Yes. Will do. Ok. Righto. Ok. Bye.
BM: Who’s that?
JH: Jeannie.
BM: Oh right.
JH: Coffee tomorrow.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Anyway, back to your first operation. You’re in control.
BM: Oh yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember that quite well because we were based on the Suez Canal and one of the things you had to be careful of you could see a ship almost at the end of the runway going across the desert. The Canal was at the far end of the runway. And you’d just see a ship there sailing across the desert. You had to be careful taking off that there weren’t any ships going through the canal because when you took off you didn’t get any height. You’d be flying for about two or three miles I’d say. You climbed very slowly. And you climbed towards, turned towards Tobruk and you climbed up as high as you could get which in those with those, planes it was about ten or twelve thousand feet. And I remember we, getting up along the coast of North Africa the navigator went down below to check the position, map reading the coast and he called me up and said, ‘Mac,’ he said, ‘We’re flying over a convoy. There are balloons down below.’ I said, ‘This is bloody crazy. There are no balloons here.’ I banked around and had a look and there were four things that looked like balloons. They were puffs of anti-aircraft fire.
JH: Heading your way.
BM: They were firing at us but about a thousand feet below us [laughs] So we immediately changed course. At any rate the, quite a lot of flak. Quite a lot of searchlights at Tobruk. The thing I remember about the searchlights they would all go out and there would be one would suddenly come on alone. A blue searchlight. And about five seconds later all the searchlights would concentrate on one plane and they’d hold that plane for quite a while.
JH: It’s coning it isn’t it? Yeah.
BM: But it didn’t come on to us. We rode it out. Do a normal bombing run. And you took photographs when you dropped your bombs too.
JH: Yes.
BM: You held course for about, I think ten or fifteen seconds till the bombs exploded and the camera took a photograph of where your bombs went.
JH: Yes.
BM: But we were bombing the wharves mainly.
JH: Yes.
BM: I don’t know whether. I don’t know whether there was anything there to bomb really.
JH: I think you told me. I think it was you told me you actually took part in the battle of El Alemein.
BM: Yes.
JH: Targeting German supply ships.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would that be right?
BM: Well, after we were on the Canal we moved up to Kilo Forty which was forty kilos on the road from Cairo to Alexandria. Just a desert aerodrome. And from there we more or less supported the army.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bombing German airfields behind the lines.
JH: Yes.
BM: And bombing army targets which were marked by aircraft from Alexandria. Fleet Air Arm aircraft dropping flares. I don’t know how they got they got in on the act.
JH: Yes.
BM: But they’d dropped flares for us to bomb on.
JH: Yes.
BM: We did half a dozen trips on that before El Alemein.
JH: Yes.
BM: And on El Alemein night we did two bombing runs. One at about eleven at night and one about two in the morning because we were not that far from the battle front. You could hear the barrage start up at about 10 o’clock. On the 23rd of October I think it was.
JH: It’s —
BM: After El Alemein of course old Montgomery was successful but I always thought he, he was too cautious by half because he knew all the German plans because Rommel had been sending messages back to Hitler. He was short of petrol. He was short of reinforcements and pleading with Hitler to send reinforcements by way of aircraft or I think the Germans were supplying their fighters, called JU52s bringing aircraft fuel in. That’s how short of fuel they were.
JH: Yes.
BM: But Hitler of course said, ‘Don’t surrender. Fight to the last man.’ But Rommel fortunately decided that was bloody silly because he got quite a few Germans out of Africa. He retreated. Very skilfully retreated. And I think Montgomery should have thrown everything at the Germans because he had a couple of people from that Enigma machine with him relaying messages that Rommel was sending to Hitler. How desperate he was for supplies.
JH: Yes.
BM: And how desperate he was to sort of get reinforcements. But Rommel didn’t move. He had sort of absolute overpowering authority.
JH: Yes.
BM: We had about seven to one air superiority.
JH: Yes
BM: I reckon Rommel should have thrown us during the daytime. He could have had about three or four to one fighter superiority and he had about three to one, he had about seven to one bomber superiority.
JH: So, that was the feeling among the squadron that the 8th Army didn’t follow through enough.
BM: Yes. I reckon he should have. He should have thrown everything into the battle.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he would have knocked Rommel out and he would have captured an awful lot of Germans.
JH: Yes.
BM: Anyway, he was successful so —
JH: Yes. I, I read somewhere that the Desert Air Force got involved in this concept of close air support. The actual air force involving with the infantry. In fact they were forward.
BM: Ah yes.
JH: Forward scouts passing on information to, to the air force.
BM: Yeah.
JH: And I read that the desert was where the, this close air support was really initiated.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Did you have any experience of that?
BM: No. I was a bit disappointed there. I thought we should have been kept in touch with what was going on with the army. We never were.
JH: Yeah That’s interesting with your army background.
BM: I think —
JH: Artillery background.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I thought there was a bit of, probably ill feeling between the air force and the army. I don’t know. I could be wrong there. But they sort of fought their own war as it were.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate we followed up the army there when the army retreated. The Germans retreated. We followed up and we got as far as Tobruk. And we were dropping bombs on the retreating Germans and then we suddenly got a move to. I think — six planes will proceed forthwith to Halfway House. By that stage we were up behind Tobruk.
JH: So you were leap frogging.
BM: Leap frogging. Yes
JH: The base as, as the front moved
BM: When the Germans were retreating we were following. Yeah.
JH: Westwards. Yeah.
BM: And there wasn’t, when the message came to have six planes would proceed to Halfway House no one knew and I had to send a message back to find Halfway House from Malta. This was about a thousand miles from Gibraltar and a thousand miles from Cairo. It was known to the Navy as Halfway House.
JH: Yes.
BM: So the middle of the afternoon we got the message we were, had to take off at dark with two ground, two supplies of ground crew. Half a dozen ground crew staff.
JH: Yes.
BM: As passengers. So we, immediately we were headed for Malta.
JH: And how long were you based in Malta then?
BM: Well, it took about four hours to get there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember well when we were nearing Malta there was a bloody line of lights appeared.
JH: Yes.
BM: I thought, God, we’ve gone to Italy or Sicily or somewhere. I called up the wireless, I said get an QDM. That’s a course to steer [unclear] and it was correct. We were. A convoy had gotten in a couple of ships and all the lights were on on the wharves. That’s the lights we were seeing. And we got to Malta and one of our planes landing hit a, one of the sand bagged bays near the beginning of the runway and went up in flames. We landed with this bloody thing flaming beside us. And we taxied in and found out that I think the pilot got out of it, I think. I think he lost his legs. But he was about the only one that survived, I think. But at any rate we operated from Malta then for a couple of months. That was early December then.
JH: Yes.
BM: 1942
JH: And were you operating from Malta as far as Sicily from there?
BM: Yes. Sicily was, Sicily was a main target. And North Africa. Retreating Germans. Tripoli.
JH: Yes.
BM: And Sfax and Sous. They were in Tunisia.
JH: Yes.
BM: The Germans were retreating there.
JH: Yes.
BM: Sending ships to pick them up. Yeah.
JH: Yes. So, yeah so Tunisia I believe you were on some important raids to Tunisia and Palermo. Is that correct?
BM: That’s correct. Yes, yeah.
JH: Yes. Do you want to mention a couple of those?
BM: Yes. I remember Palermo quite well because we didn’t take off at a scheduled time. Take off was delayed because there was bad weather and the trouble at Malta they had no weather reporting process so they could never predict the weather. You know the weather was a bit doubtful. Anyway we took off. We found the target all right. I was amazed at the, the, not much flak went up as we were coming out. Normally —
JH: Yeah.
BM: When you come up to a target. You see the guns firing.
JH: Yes.
BM: But there were no guns firing as we got up to the target.
JH: Yeah.
BM: When they started shooting. And we found out later there were only two aircraft got there. The rest got a recall. The others were all recalled because of bad weather. So we were the only two aircraft that got to the target.
JH: You didn’t get the message.
BM: We didn’t get the message. No [laughs] At any rate we were flying back we had trouble with the bad weather getting back.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember that well. Went into a storm or something.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Because they couldn’t forecast the weather then.
JH: Yeah.
BM: That was the trouble. And apparently the weather was very changeable because the Alps weather and the desert weather meet —
JH: Yes.
BM: Over the Mediterranean there.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you got very very severe turbulence.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you got a lot of static electricity.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Laying on the guns.
JH: Really?
BM: Yeah. Well, we survived Malta.
JH: Yes. Was it that raid to Palermo, I think you told me before both engines cut out for some reason. You lost your engines.
BM: Ah yes. Yes. Yeah.
JH: What happened there?
BM: There we were, actually it was another raid on Sicily that we had trouble with. Engine trouble. Had a thing with when we were bombing Sicily it was after we got, we came back to Cairo and they gave us one last raid. We suddenly got a message in Cairo. Take off at midnight. Return to Cairo. Which we did. And when we were there I found I’d done my tour of operations but a couple of the crew hadn’t finished and needed one more raid. And we were a bit lucky because we got the last raid was dropping supplies to people in Crete. At the western end of Crete a lot of people had escaped during the German invasion and there was a rebel force there fighting the Germans in the mountains. Very mountainous country and they came out at mid-day and loaded our aircraft with big metal containers about six feet long in the bomb bay and gave us a place to drop them at the western end of Crete. And we took off about dusk and got to Crete and they also gave us bundles of newspapers and said, ‘When you’ve dropped the bombs fly to the other side of Crete. The northern side where all the towns are.’ There were no towns in the western end.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It’s all mountainous, ‘And drop out these newspapers.’ Propaganda. German propaganda. Against the Germans for the Cretian, the Cretian people. At any rate we dropped the bombs, flew around Crete and flying along the northern side couldn’t see any land for a while and it was there that we found that we’d gone too far north.
JH: Yes.
BM: We saw a lot of bloody islands below and we knew that Crete was somewhere to the south so we went there and when we suddenly hit Crete they started firing guns at us. So you can imagine the newspapers were delivered very rapidly [laughs]
JH: Yeah.
BM: And we climbed straight away to ten thousand feet.
JH: Yeah.
BM: There were mountains in Crete up to eight thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: At the western end. But we dropped the newspapers and went home. And that was our last operation.
JH: Yes. So at that stage it was the operations were coming to an end there. Did you have any idea what lay ahead of, of you and your crew? Was it going back to the UK or —
BM: No. We didn’t know.
JH: Or Italy.
BM: We went back and sat in Cairo for a couple of weeks.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And they suddenly told us to get aboard an aircraft and flew us down to Khartoum. Flying boat. And then we got another DC3 from there across the whole of Africa to the west coast of Africa.
JH: So where were you going? What was the plan?
BM: Back to England.
JH: Back to England.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Ok. Yeah.
BM: We got to —
JH: Yeah
BM: I think Takoradi, that was the place on the west coast of Africa. We sat there for about a week.
JH: That’s in Ghana I think.
BM: It was a small.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Coastal vehicle took us up to Freetown which is a main port in West Africa there.
JH: Yes.
BM: Where we got aboard [pause] what was the name of the boat? The Mauritania. An ocean liner.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bound for Liverpool. We went back unescorted. It went at high speed.
JH: Yes.
BM: It went about thirty eight knots I think. And went out in to the mid-Atlantic.
JH: With a convoy? Or —
BM: No. Alone.
JH: Solo.
BM: Just travelling at high speed. And altering course apparently every five minutes. Yeah. Zig-zagging.
JH: Zig-zagging.
BM: Went to Liverpool. So, and from there got a plane back to London.
JH: Yes. And some well-earned leave. Did you have any leave time?
BM: Went on leave there. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. And from there got posted. Got a posting on to Training Command up in Lossiemouth. To an Operational Training Unit to instruct bomber crews.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I sat there until the, more or less the end of the war instructing people.
JH: What — is this 1944?
BM: This would be —
JH: Coming into Lossiemouth.
BM: 1943.
JH: 1943.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It was there I found that I’d been awarded a DFC for flying in Africa and Alemein and so on.
JH: So you completed a tour.
BM: Completed a tour.
JH: And the DFC.
BM: DFC. Yes
JH: Yeah. Yeah. And your rank at that stage. Flight.
BM: I was a flight lieutenant.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: By that stage.
JH: Yes. So —
BM: And then, I was instructing there. I got posted down to the Empire Central Flying School at Hullavington in England.
JH: At where? Sorry?
BM: Empire Central Flying School.
JH: Yes.
BM: At Hullavington. Which was the main training place for bomber crews. I got trained to instruct bomber crews there. Then I went back and got on very well with the man in charge of the place at Lossiemouth wasn’t it?
JH: Yes.
BM: The instructing place. And he was the man I think that got me the Air Force Cross. I got an Air Force Cross for my instructing.
JH: Oh really. Yeah.
BM: We were the operational training instructing French crews.
JH: Yes.
BM: And as a result of that I got the French Legion d’honneur from there.
JH: Yes. I was there. I saw you. I was there when you were awarded.
BM: I tell the story how I got the AFC. When we were at Lossiemouth a bit of a surf would come in there at the right time of year. In Midsummer. The water was reasonably warm but we boys would get down for a swim in the river like this here.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there’s a couple of reefs nearby. And I was able to catch a few waves. I’m no expert surfer but I was outstanding apparently. There were three or four English blokes. I was the talk of bloody the station, ‘You should have seen him.’ I could do a slow roll on a wave as it was coming. I could do a roll and come down right side up.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But they thought this was incredible. And the news of this got to the group captain in charge of the place and he said, ‘Well I believe that the reefs along the shore there, I believe there are lobsters there which are ready to be caught and no one has been near the place for years because mines had been laid thereabouts.’ He said, ‘We’ll go along one afternoon and might be able to get a lobster.’ So a crowd of us went along. The group captain in his car with three other fellas and myself wading around these reefs. And I was the only one that caught a bloody lobster. I moved down and threw it up on the shore. And after we got out and were drying ourselves the boys said, ‘What do you do with a lobster?’ We’ll cook it —? I said, ‘Oh no.’ I knew the group captain lived off the station. I said, ‘You have it sir.’ And the boys said, ‘You’ll get on. You’ll get on.’ And I reckon that’s how I might have got my bloody AFC [laughs]
JH: How you got your gong. Yeah. Well, what a change from operations.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Being up there.
BM: Yes.
JH: So, what happened to the rest of the crew Bill?
BM: Eh
JH: What happened to the rest of your crew?
BM: The rest of the crew. I kept in touch with the navigator. He got posted up instructing to Lossiemouth too. Lossiemouth there were three stations there. They had the main station and there were two satellite stations. I was in charge of one of the satellite stations.
JH: Yes.
BM: For a while.
JH: Yes.
BM: He was with the main station instructing other navigators.
JH: Yes.
BM: And by that time in England Gee, an operational aid had come into being.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which had more or less done away with the old plotting thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: Navigators could get a fix by operating a Gee set. Well, he was instructing on that.
JH: Yes. And was it Lancasters phasing in?
BM: No. No.
JH: And the Wellingtons phasing out at that stage?
BM: Still Wellingtons.
JH: Still Wellingtons.
BM: After they’d finished their training with us crews were posted down to England to a Conversion Unit.
JH: Conversion.
BM: On four engines.
JH: Yes.
BM: Where they spent about twelve hours I think.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there they would pick up a mid-upper gunner and an engineer.
JH: Crew. A crew of seven. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. They had a four engine aircraft then.
JH: Yeah
BM: A four engine bomber. But with us they were still on twin engines. Which was a bit not the base.
JH: Yes. Yes. So that was, that was for you an enjoyable period.
BM: No. It wasn’t enjoyable.
JH: Or not. Or were you wanting to get back into action?
BM: It was really trying, instructing. You didn’t get a lot of sleep. You were either instructing or you were in charge of night flying. And I’ve got a good after dinner story when instructing the French. The early French were really magnificent pilots. They’d been in the French Air Force.
JH: Yes.
BM: One of them in particular had been flying with the French civil lines. And they at that stage had an airline over to, I think West Africa where they landed somewhere in mid-Atlantic. Well, one of the pilots they were training had been on that cross bloody Atlantic flight. But you couldn’t teach him anything of course. I was very —
JH: So he knew a bit about navigation obviously.
BM: I was very sort of hesitant about correcting him. He could have taught me a lot. I’m sure of that.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But the French crews. I remember the, there was an intelligence officer at every station.
JH: Yes.
BM: And there was a head of intelligence man. I suppose based at Edinburgh who would tour around visiting the stations and he came around to visit our stations. And French crews on the station would receive every couple of weeks a cask of wine sent up by General de Gaulle from London which could be issued gratis to the French aircrews. At any rate this head navigation intelligence man came visiting us and called in for lunch. And he was a First World War man. Allegedly related to the Queen. First World War medals. He liked his whisky which we gave him for lunch.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And the bloody French crews [unclear] insisted he have some French wine too. After dinner you went and got your own coffee at the coffee thing at the entrance and he was getting his cup of coffee and he tripped over and fell and sat on the coffee cup. And he had to have half a dozen stitches put in his backside
Other: Dear. Dinnertime.
BM: It’s time. I’d better not have dinner.
Other: You don’t want to go down for dinner?
BM: No. I won’t worry about it.
JH: Bill, we can, we can probably start winding it up a bit and if so you can have your dinner.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: Would you —
Other: You can have [unclear] as well I think.
BM: Give me five minutes.
Other: Ok darling.
BM: Can I have five minutes?
Other: Yeah darling.
JH: Yes. Ok.
Other: Sure.
JH: Yeah.
BM: This man’s interviewing me. How I won the war [laughs]
Other: Yeah darling. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. But you read about the training squadrons. There were quite a few casualties.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: Did you have experience of that at Lossiemouth?
BM: Oh yeah. We had the, we had the odd crash.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we found in the, at the station there we were the people who found that something was happening with the Wellingtons. They were developing cracks in the main spar. And we had three mysterious crashes. Now remember I was the man who discovered one of the French aircrews who crashed when they, just after they left at night. They left the east coast of Scotland and disappeared. I found the crash the next day. Cracks developed in the main spar due to heavy landings. And they were all ex-operational aircraft which in avoiding fighters and anti-aircraft fire they’d far exceed authorised speed limits. Every aircraft had a mark on the altimeter not to exceed. Well —
JH: Yeah.
BM: You’d bloody well exceed that if you got into trouble
JH: Yeah.
BM: Instead going down at three hundred miles an hour they’d be going down at three fifty and that cracked the main spar.
JH: Yes.
BM: And they developed with heavy landings. And when the training crews were doing fighter affiliation you taught them to do very steep manoeuvres.
JH: Yes.
BM: To avoid fighters. You had an aircraft acting as a fighter chasing you. That was part of your training. And we had a couple of mysterious crashes. There was nothing left when they hit the ground. But one fell into the sea and they were able to get the wreckage.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there they discovered the cracks. I think that was one of the main reasons —
JH: Yeah.
BM: That I got a bit of a notoriety through one of the people who was discovered this crack. They grounded the Wellingtons for two or three days and strengthened the main spars.
JH: That sounds like quite a breakthrough finding that problem.
BM: Yes. It was. Yes.
JH: No doubt saved no end of lives.
BM: That would have been the reason. Heavy landings by pupils.
JH: Yes.
BM: And giving them this manoeuvre. The corkscrew manoeuvre we taught them.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: But after that that more or less ended my career.
JH: Yes. So, just, just to finish off. What about you were there for VE day in the UK.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Then you went back to the bank?
BM: Yeah.
JH: Or did you continue with the air force after the war for a while.
BM: I continued for about six months.
JH: Yes.
BM: The bank had no staff.
JH: Yes.
BM: They all waited to be called up.
JH: Yes.
BM: As a result they didn’t get the — I got released straight away.
JH: Yes.
BM: Having joined early. But the bank staff — we had no bloody staff
JH: Yes.
BM: And I went. I was working all sorts of bloody hours.
JH: Yes.
BM: 10 o’clock at night. I was one of the few bloody staff in London office.
JH: My father, after the war left, left the RAF. In to Barclays working long hours like you did.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: But there were no staff.
BM: That’s right.
JH: Now, what about family? Family life.
BM: I married my wife halfway through the war.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: I didn’t shoot my line about how I got my DFC. In Edinburgh.
JH: Yes.
BM: I went along to get it at the Holyrood House.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The palace there, with the [pause] And when I went I asked the girl at the desk, ‘How do I get to the Palace?’ She said, ‘You can catch a tram.’ A tram or — I got a tram and the girl came up and said, ‘There’s the Palace sir.’ It was a picture show. That’s my afternoon story.
JH: Yes.
BM: How I got my medal.
JH: Ok.
BM: I went back to Holyrood and got my medal.
JH: Yes.
BM: And that was it.
JH: Yes. Yeah. So, so you continue with the bank.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Until you retired. Did you retire?
BM: Till I retired. I retired early.
JH: Yes.
BM: Banking never pleased me anymore.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: I retired as soon as I could. Aged fifty five.
JH: Yeah. Now, you could have stayed in the UK but what brought you back here?
BM: I think mainly [pause] I don’t know really. I had to retire somewhere.
JH: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And this was one of the good places to retire.
JH: Yes. Yeah. Did you go back to New England or you came back to Sydney?
BM: I came back to Sydney.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: And I went around. I finished up managing all of Sydney.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I retired from there more or less.
JH: Yes. Yeah. And I know you’ve kept in touch with veterans. You’re involved in the —
BM: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JH: Bomber Command Association and I saw you in London.
BM: Yeah.
JH: For the opening of the Memorial by the Queen.
BM: That’s right.
JH: That very hot day. You remember.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: And I’ve seen you at lots of functions.
BM: But I’m not a great medal man. I don’t believe in medals. I’ve got a couple of medals but I think I’ve always said people who got medals, should have got them are no longer with us.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I knew, during my training at Lossiemouth I knew there, fellow pilots, two VCs, very well.
JH: Yes.
BM: They went back on their second tour. Bazalgette and Palmer.
JH: Yes.
BM: Both won VCs. Posthumous of course.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: But I, when I went to London for the 2012 thing I met Sir Peter Squire.
JH: Yes.
BM: I’ve got his picture over there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Have a look at it. And that —
JH: Yeah.
BM: And that friend advising about the Legion d’honneur. I had a long talk with him when I met him at the meeting after the celebration for the monument thing. And someone wrote him a letter. I had a long talk to him. And I flattered myself he might have remembered me. I told a friend, they sent him a message I got a Legion d’Honneur and he wrote me a response. Have a look at his picture and the letter he wrote me over there.
JH: I’ll have a look afterwards.
BM: Yeah. Have a look.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: At any rate don’t mention my medals [laughs]
JH: Well, Bill —
BM: I told, I think I must have struck a sympathetic ear because he got the same medals as I have.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he got his through Falklands. His DFC. And I think he had a bit of, he thought a bloody World War Two bomber pilot was you know big time.
JH: Yes.
BM: I think he had a bit of an inferiority about his Falklands DFC.
JH: Yes.
BM: I don’t know. But I think that’s why we had a very very long talk.
JH: Yes.
BM: About — and he agreed with me about the medals.
JH: Yes.
BM: I said well I don’t know why they worried about it. I just went where I was told.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Nothing very special about it. We did what we had to do.
JH: Yes.
BM: But no reason to give us medals. And the fellas who should have got them of course got killed.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I don’t like capitalising on that.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate see the letter he wrote me at the back.
JH: I’m going to have a look at that.
BM: I was quite, quite frazzled by it. Quite frazzled.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I think it might have been he might have remembered. I don’t know. But he would have met thousands of people.
JH: Bill —
BM: He was a very friendly gentleman.
JH: Yes.
BM: As I say we sort of had empathy together.
JH: I’ll have a look at that.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Bill, why don’t we wind it up. Thank you very much for the time and I feel really privileged to be the one interviewing you today. It’s a great story. It really is.
BM: Oh no.
JH: It is a good story. And so —
BM: Sheer luck.
JH: Thank you very much.
BM: Bomber Command was luck.
JH: Yes.
BM: I realised early on you were expendable. You realised that. After training you were very keen.
JH: Yes.
BM: Training you wanted to dash into it. When you got into it you realised you were bloody well expendable. You’ve only got someone to say, ‘There’s the target. Go for it.’ And you were gone.
JH: But your airspeed lesson. Dive bombing the church graveyard probably stood you in good stead.
BM: Training it did. You taught people that. Taught it.
JH: Thank you very much, Bill.
BM: Oh no. My pleasure. Sorry to have bored you.
JH: Not at all.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Bill Macrae
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John Horsburgh
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMacraeWM161116
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Pending review
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01:26:12 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
British Army
Description
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Bill McRae’s earliest memories were of the end of the First World War. He worked for a major bank during the Depression and was fortunate to be amongst a group of Australians who were sent to work in London. He volunteered at Australia House and was posted to the British Army for officer training during the summer of 1940. He later transferred to the RAF and after training as a pilot at RAF Cranwell was posted on to Malta and Cairo for the Middle East campaign. He later returned to the UK as an instructor at RAF Lossiemouth.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
New South Wales
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Greece
Greece--Crete
Libya
Libya--Tobruk
Italy
Italy--Sicily
Malta
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
148 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Flying Training School
Gee
Initial Training Wing
Magister
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Cranwell
RAF Harwell
RAF Lossiemouth
searchlight
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/589/8858/AHughesWR150713.2.mp3
18e37bacec69f09e545be17b9d8cdabd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hughes, Bob
William Robert Hughes
W R Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Hughes, WR
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Bob Hughes (751133, 137124 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 149, 50 and 23 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: So, this is now recording, and my name is Nigel Moore, I’m the interviewer, and I’m interviewing Flight Lieutenant Bob Hughes on the 13th of July. I’m in Mr Hughes’ home in North Hants. So, Mr Hughes, would you like to tell us something about your upbringing and your life before you joined the RAF?
BH: I was only a, a ordinary seniors school and I never went, never passed Eleven Plus, so I went to the, one of the senior productive schools and then I, I passed, I suppose, most things, you know, and when the opportunity came, I took [unclear] said we had a – I’d been working as a coachbuilder, or in, with a coachbuilding firm, and we were, were making Rolls Royce – taking Rolls Royce chassis in and making them into finished cars. And while I was there, we had a fellow named Serge Kalinsky, he was a Scandinavian diplomat and he started swearing and said ‘There’s gonna be a bloody war any time now! Within the next few months, I guarantee it, in the next few months!’ So, knowing that I – my father had had a rough time in the army, in the trenches, I thought ‘ Well, no army for me, I’m gonna join the air force now,’ because Sywell was a handy aerodrome, so I went and joined weekend air force. And, once I was in there and the war was declared, naturally I was transferred straight away into the main RAF. And, erm –
NM: So, you joined a reserve squadron, did you?
BH: That’s right, RAF Volunteer Reserves. And I don’t know the na – well, I think it was 23 Squadron that I went to, which was when – during the Battle of Britain.
NM: So, how – can you describe your training, your flying training?
BH: Flying training?
NM: What were you training on? What were you flying?
BH: Well, mostly, in Ansons and, well, you know, I, I’m terrible at trying to remember the names of these aircraft tonight, but the – oh dear, two, two, two engined, the planes that we flew in, and – oh, I can’t think of the, the names, have I got it in here at all? [sound of turning pages]
NM: Not to worry, what about the training itself?
BH: Well, this was to go in these aircraft and did a few bail-outs practices and in the, in the, oh dear, in the yards of some big firms where they, they’d got escape possibility there, so we tried, tried those out several times. [background noises, turning pages]
NM: So, you say you flew in the Battle of Britain?
BH: Yes.
NM: What –
BH: That was in Blenheims.
NM: Can you de – can you talk –
BH: Now, this is the thing: quite often, when the Battle of Britain is mentioned, it’s either – what’s the two [unclear] the two aircraft that were always noticed? I think every time they mention these two aircraft, I think, how about the Night Shifts? ‘Cause I flew in, in the, in the Night Shift, and the aircraft we flew in wasn’t – oh dear, I’m terrible at names, I’m a terrible, terrible person to interview, really, because my memory is absolutely shocking. Blenheim, yes, but [pause] these, these were the usual things that we flew in those days, Ansons and Blenheims.
NM: So, can you describe the role that you played in the Battle of Britain flying these Blenheims?
BH: Well, I was a wireless operator/air gunner, and of course, in the, in those aircraft, you could picture everything, what am I talking about? Got a picture here [background noises].
NM: Yep, there’s the Blenheim.
BH: That’s – do you rec – do you recognise the one?
NM: Mr Hughes is pointing out a Mark 1 Blenheim.
BH: Mark 1 Blenheim, yeah, that’s right, yeah.
NM: ‘S’ right, and you were –
BH: And we had a, we had a turret on the top.
NM: And that’s where you were.
BH: When I flew later, in, in the big aircraft, the four-engine aircraft – they’re all here [background noises] when I flew later in the Wellington – that one’s the Lancaster, that is the Dambuster, they’ve got no turret on there but we, where we flew in the Lancasters, we had a turret, you see but previously, during the Battle of Britain, it was on, on the twin-engine aircraft.
NM: So, when you flew the Blenheims during the Battle of Britain, were you on bombing missions, and what – if so, what were your targets?
BH: Well, it, we were on defence.
NM: On defence?
BH: Defence patrol, up and down from the south coast up to, up the Thames Estuary, most of the time. [pause, sound of turning pages]
NM: And this was – were you called the Night Shift?
BH: The Night Shift, yes. There we are, there’s the aircraft. And that’s the flew – the pilot I flew with most of the time, this is Alan Gowarth [?] and that was, yes, and all Blenheims.
NM: So, this was Number 23 Squadron, night –
BH: 23 Squadron, night fighter squadron, yes.
NM: And can you describe your operations flying for 23 Squadron?
BH: Well –
NM: In the Blenheim?
BH: It was a, a patrol, up and down from the south coast up the Thames, the Thames Estuary, keeping a guard on things to the starboard, you know, any incoming aircraft, and we, we had quite a few that we, we followed, and went and dived down with them but we didn’t actually have a contact. [Pause] This first one, yeah apart from anything else, we had anti-aircraft cooperation, searchlight cooperation, going backwards and forwards along the Thames Estuary. That’s what they were: night defensive patrols. And that was, that’s the fella, fella that I flew with most of the time.
NM: So, you encountered a few contacts but didn’t actually –
BH: We didn’t see anybody shot, shot down but we, we fired at them and we saw the bullets, you know, sort of going their direction but didn’t see anything falling down, not then.
NM: And what type of aircraft were you engaging?
BH: It was a Blenheim. Oh, I don’t know; well, they were twin, twin-engined aircraft, yeah. I can’t –
NM: Okay.
BH: Think of the name. [sound of turning pages] I’ve got a picture.
NM: So after the 23 Squadron, how did you move to – can you describe how you moved from Fighter Command to Bomber Command?
BH: Well, at the time, they were losing a lot of crews and aircraft and crews in, in Bomber Command, and so they were asking for volunteers and I volunteered to – went to Number 9 Bomber Squadron, which was at Honington, but I only did one air test with them, and then I was asked if I would volunteer and go to one, 149 Squadron, which was at Mildenhall, and that’s where I did most of the bombing trips that I did, up to, up to seventy-three, but they weren’t all to Germany. A lot – we had a spell over in the Middle East, and it was Benghazi that we were bombing then.
NM: So, the start of your operational life with 149 Squadron –
BH: 149, yes.
NM: Was that –
BH: Mildenhall.
NM: At Mildenhall.
BH: Yes.
NM: And –
BH: And we were –
NM: And how did you – can you describe how you met your crew and got a crew together?
BH: No, only a sort of friendly meeting and you like the look of somebody and who you think was, was genuine. This first fellow we went – I flew with was a Squadron Leader Heather, and we went to Wilhelmshaven, [unclear] class cruisers and we were, we were bombing all around it, when this – oh, we went there again another night, repeat, repeat. I tell you what, when we first, when we first went there, they, they took us to canal, canals, and we got to aim in the canal with the mines, and mind you, was such a narrow mine, margin, and having such a small tar – item, when we got back home, we told them how difficult it was, so we suggested ‘Why not bomb it instead of just putting mines there?’ So they sent us back the next night to, to do that. That was Wilhelmshaven.
NM: So, at this point, you were flying Wellingtons?
BH: Wellingtons, yes.
NM: And this was in nineteen-forty –
BH: 1949, February ’49.
NM: Forty – 1941?
BH: Ah, no, no, beg your pardon.
NM: Yes.
BH: Yes, ’41, yes.
NM: So, can you describe squadron life on 149 Bomber Command at Mil – Mildenhall?
BH: Well, it was just –
NM: What was life like?
BH: Just a friendly get-together, you know, I’m ninety, nearly ninety-five now and I was twenty, twenty then, nineteen or twenty. So, you know, to remember exactly what we did, we got friendly; whoever we met, we made friends with and wanted to know how we got on.
NM: Did you go out for nights out around Mildenhall? What was – what were they like?
BH: Yes, yes, but, you know, just a drink here and there and, but nothing to really note.
NM: And what about your crew? Do you have particular memories of your crew?
BH: Yes, I think I, quite honestly, having done so many and for such a long period, long number of ops, I reckon I was very lucky picking the, or matching up with a good set of wonderful pilots. You see, each of the pilots I flew with were absolutely wonderful; they seemed to go to the target and did the business and get back, no messing and no wandering about all over Germany.
NM: And how about the rest of the crew? Were you a close group?
BH: Yes, yes, I think, generally speaking it was with the naviga – with the observer, or navigator, as they were then, more than anything, and because with the navigator, it was a question of, when we got over the target, sort of the geography of the place. I remember one of the things, one of the worst op we went on was Essen, and the geography of that place was so – we could spot it out as easy as anything. [Pause] But then later on, we did a lot of coast, coastal things like Wilhelmshaven, bombing the cruisers there, they, they took [unclear] class cruisers up the, up the, the fjords.
NM: Why was Essen such a bad target?
BH: Well, being an ammunition manufacturing place, I believe it was very heavily defended because of that. I mean, it was a manufacturer of, manufacturer of explosives and suchlike, and we seemed to cruise around it quite a lot, and anyhow, I was always telling the skipper, ‘Such-and-such is at the, on the starboard side,’ or, you know, ‘We’ve got to turn a little bit to the port to get this thing.’ That was on a reserve flight, 149 Squadron, and then I went to a reserve flight at Stradishall where they were preparing to get crews to go out to the Middle East, and then I had a spell in the Middle East.
NM: So, just back on your bombing raids here, over Essen and other German targets, you were giving instructions to the pilot –
BH: Oh yes, yes!
NM: To help him to do what?
BH: Yes, notifying where the canals are shooting off, to the south or the, the west, you know, that sort of thing. On very sunny [?] nights, the, the water whether it was a river or a canal, you could spot it that much easier, and you would report, you know, what you could see.
NM: So, tell us a little bit how you then transferred out to the Middle East. Was this the same squadron, was the whole squadron go out to the Middle East?
BH: Oh, no, no, it was with a, a, I was with this, what, this one point one, this reserve flight to start with, wasn’t I? And then, then we heard that there’d been so many losses, crew losses, and there were appealing for people to, to go to transfer to the Middle East, and so I went to this reserve flight at Stradishall, and from there, via Malta, I went to, to 70 Squadron in Kabrit, which was in Egypt.
NM: That must have been quite a change. What – can you give us your memories of the change in going to the Middle East?
BH: Well, the thing was, we had, we had a turret to go to, and the preparations for, for raids and things were absolutely marvellous. We had an advanced base; we used to land in the desert and then take off again for the raid. Well, this one here, the first one we had, operations against enemy was Menida [?] Aerodrome, so actually, I liked the possibility of going into the front turret if we were going and attacking an aerodrome, so we can go ‘round and, you know, shooting up the, the, the arm – armoury points.
NM: So, you moved from the mid upper to the front for these raids?
BH: That’s right, yes, but most of the time, you know, we were, when you were in the rear turret, we were solely concerned about attacks by enemy aircraft, you know? So, most of our light was emphasised downwards. [Pause] We had one or two come up to us and nose – nosing towards us and managed to tell the pilot to do a dive and then we went down in, in a curve dive, you know, and got shot of them.
NM: So, you encountered enemy aircraft?
BH: Yes, yes.
NM: On many occasions?
BH: Oh, at least, oh, I’ll just think, at least a half a dozen times.
NM: So, tell us about squadron – your memories of squadron life in the desert. How different was it from the UK?
BH: Well, of course, water was the problem, sort of rationing out water, you know, and sort of having exercise, running and all the rest of it, but had to avoid having too much water. But then, in the desert, particularly, that was an even worse problem. [Pause] That was a thing that we did quite often while in the Middle East, was staffing the motor transport on the – between Cairo and Benghazi. The, the main road was, was used quite a lot by the enemy and we’d attack transport along there, and railway sidings, particularly, so they would try bringing the forces, German forces, into the desert via Benghazi and so we attacked the– oh, I can’t, I was trying to think of the, the general’s name: Rommel. Rommel was bringing all his replacement troops into Ben – Benghazi, so we went there and we – well, they called it the mailroom [?] because we hit it so many times, but it was where they were bringing the re – the new forces in.
NM: And were these daylight raids you were on, or night raids?
BH: Mostly night, but we did one or two; well, yes, I should think about a third of them were daylight, but mostly night. [Pause] Then it was a question of geography and remembering the shape of the, the land underneath you, whereabouts you’d got to. Location, on the main way up to Benghazi, we had to sort out Bardi – Bardiyah and Menidi [?] for erm, to locate us that we were hitting the right thing. Railway sidings were attacked an enormous amount, but we had to sort out our geography to make sure we were bombing, strafing the right things. [Pause, sound of turning pages]
NM: So how did, how did your war continue? Can you describe – were there any changes over this period, 1941, in terms of how the squadron life continued?
BH: Well, towards the end of my period, we did a lot of education of fresh crews.
NM: Who had come out to Egypt?
BH: Yes. [Sound of turning pages] Oh, this is Pershore.
NM: Is that –
BH: Pershore, that was the OTU there, Pershore, where I did a lot of bombing from there, and then on to 12 Squadron.
NM: So, tell me how you managed to get then transferred back from the desert, back to Bomber Command in England.
BH: [Sound of turning pages] 50 Squadron [more turning pages] It’s in –
NM: What happened between 70 Squadron and, and 50 Squadron?
BH: We – everything was going alright and we were bombing everything we were asked to, and, but then they were asking for volunteers to do – to go to, to England again.
NM: So, did you volunteer on your own or did the entire crew volunteer?
BH: Oh, I volunteered on my own, I think, but this was 50 Squadron, 5 Group, Skellingthorpe, it was a liaison visit we did there, and while we were there, they wanted us to go to, to – on Lancasters to Magdeburg. As a matter of fact, I’d been on seventy-two trips, missions, and I’d never once been to Berlin, somebody was talking about going to Berlin, so we went to Magdeburg, and after we’d bombed there, the skipper says ‘See on the starboard side, you’ll see Berlin, Bob, and that’s the nearest we shall get to it!’ [slight laugh] And of course we got ‘boo’s by the rest of the crew, and that’s where we finished up. That’s the seventy – that was my very last mission.
NM: So, we’ve jumped ahead into 1944 from 1941.
BH: 1944, January ’44, yeah.
NM: What – going back a little bit to coming out of Egypt into – back to England: you say you went to an OTU?
BH: Yes, yes.
NM: And you were still flying Wellingtons?
BH: Yes, as a trainee. No, not as a trainee, as a –
NM: So you, you became an instructor?
BH: Instructor, yes.
NM: What was it like being –
BH: Yes, was that ’43? January ’43.
NM: That’s ’43, yep.
BH: Yeah, that’s right, went to an OTU.
NM: So you became an instructor?
BH: Instructor, that’s right.
NM: What else –
BH: And we did an operation from there at – oh, to Essen, several times.
NM: Just what was it like converting from a Wellington to a Lancaster? Can you –
BH: Well, we were –
NM: - describe it from a crew’s point of view?
BH: Well, we had wonderful turrets on the Lancaster and, well, I think we were just pleased that it’s – that it was a new aircraft and we’d got four engines, you know? I don’t think we gave it much sort of consideration as to whether it was better or not, it just – we just accepted that it was [emphasis] better, and we were moved fa – we were flying faster. They, they were some of the worst planes [?] we did with Essen and mine laying, oh, we did a mine laying off Heligoland and that, that was a bit dicey; they seemed to have high defensive, the defences at these places. [Pause] While we were on OTU, of course, we did a lot of experience in cross-country, knowing our way about, you know, air-to-air fire, firing and air-to-sea firing, and that’s just for practice.
NM: Describe a little bit life as an instructor as opposed to operational air crew.
BH: Well, I was quite happy about that; I mean, I knew what I was talking about and the – I, I did see quite a lot, the fellers were coming to me for, you know, ‘Well, how do we, how do we sort out this?’ you know, the rear-see [?] retainer keeper, this was a familiar phrase, you know, ‘How do we deal with this when we’re still flying in the air?’ you know? You’ve got to do it with blinds – blindfold, and that was the case in some, sometimes, ‘cause there was machine, with machine guns. [Pause] That was the last trip we did, we were attacked by an ME-210, that was the target, and fired hundred and fifty rounds but there was no confirmed hits. [Pause] I’m sorry I’m not able to answer your questions quite as freely as I ought to, really.
NM: No, don’t worry about that, you’re doing wonderfully.
BH: Well, a few years ago, perhaps I should – I’m a bit more chatty, but – [pause, sound of moving papers] You’ve got a record of service here, you see: I joined in May the 12th 1939, I joined the RAFVR and received calling-up papers, then, into the regular air force in August of that year, August 27th.
NM: So, when you came to the end of your operations, why did you finish operations? Had you done, finished a tour, or –
BH: Yeah, well –
NM: What happened after your last operation?
BH: [Sound of turning pages] Oh yes, joined an AF – was an AFU, that was the training unit.
NM: So you became an instructor again?
BH: That’s right, yes, on gun, guns and armoury.
NM: And that took you to the end of the war, did it?
BH: Yes, well, February, February, no, Oct – no, October ’44. [Pause] Various aircraft that I flew in was a Blenheim Mark 1, a Fairey Battle, that was an early, early one that I flew in a lot, and then the Boulton Paul Defiant, which we did most of the shooting with on, on nights, and then the Avro Anson that, this was a transport aircraft most of the time, and then in the Wellingtons, I flew in the 1, 1C, 1A, Mark 2 and the 3, and then the Avro Lancasters, Marks 1 and 2, and 3. Oh, also, I flew in the Lysanders quite a few times, and Blackburn Bothas; Blackburn Botha, they were used to use for training quite a lot. I know they weren’t very popular for some reason, but they did the trick.
NM: So they were the training aircraft?
BH: Yes, Bothas.
NM: So, I’m interested in the Lysander, your role in flying in a Lysander; what was your role then?
BH: My role then was to, to, to take us into the desert for take-offs, they just, for operations, or to res – rescue from the desert after we’d landed. That’s when I used the Lysander a few times, was for – was rep – was actually saving, you know, escape. I flew also in Fairey Battle, Ansons, Bothas and Lysanders. Well, the Lysander, as I say, was a thing to save you, you know, sort of a –
NM: So, of your seventy-seven operations, either in the desert or across Germany, are any particularly memorable for you?
BH: Seven – seventy-three, it was.
NM: Oh, seventy-three missions.
BH: Yeah.
NM: Okay.
BH: Well, yeah, occasionally we got caught out with the ‘Un [?] defence plane catching catching up with us, but most of the time, we were wide awake to it and whenever we saw something on the starboard or the port side, we’d tell the skipper and we’d dive away. [Pause] Course, one of the main things, maintenance, was the machine, with the machine belts, belts of machines, you know, sort of making sure we didn’t get caught up on those. [Pause] Anyhow, there’s a – unless there a record of service in the whole, the whole lot, that I, you know, kept it down to a minimum there. I went recently to Clarence House; my wife’s been there to the Queen.
NM: When you look back on your time in Bomber Command, what are your main thoughts?
BH: Well, I was glad I was available to do it, and the friendship that you made with most of the people there was pretty good. [Pause] That was the thing; with the link trainer, I used to enjoy going in that, flying the various things through the link trainer.
NM: How do you think Bomber Command has been treated since the end of the war?
BH: What? Haven’t really, haven’t had any more to do with it or knowledge of it, really. No, I don’t think that we’ve – I think we’ve, we would have cottoned on to it a bit more if anything had gone wrong, but everything seemed to be right, we sort of sorted all the problems out.
NM: Do you think Bomber Command has had enough recognition since the end of the war for what they did, or what you did?
BH: Well, yes, I think so, I think we’ve been reason – reasonably recognised.
NM: Tell me about your life since the end of the war. Did you stay in the RAF long?
BH: Oh, no, when – I had been with a firm that repaired converted Rolls Royce from the chassis into a cars, you know, and it was a good firm to work for, and I, I did a lot of this, this work, and this is how I came to meet this Kalinsky, who came in with his Wellington, with his Rolls Royce, and so he told us that there was gonna be a war, so that’s what made me go into the fleet, into the reserve occupation, so that when I was called up, I was bound to be in the RAF.
NM: So, on leaving the RAF, you rejoined the same company?
BH: After – do you know, my memory, my memory’s terrible. Yes, I must, I must have done, went straight to Mulliner’s, who were coachbuilders, class coachbuilder, they were mainly, mostly London but we had a branch in Northampton, and then [pause] think I got the DFC for my last, last trips over Essen.
NM: So you were awarded the DFC?
BH: Yes, that was December the 12th, 12th of the 3rd, ’43, and then the other thing later, the RAF.
NM: What was the background to the award of the DFC?
BH: We were on – trying to see where this is. [Pause] Oh, it was on the second tour, I’d done a tour of ops already and volunteered for another, and it was during this that I was awarded the DFC on the secondary tour, tour.
NM: Was the reason for the DFC because of your –
BH: Length, length of service, service.
NM: Length of service, rather than a particular –
BH: Yes, volunteering for so mu – so much with the, with Flying Command, with Bomber Command. I went to another squadron, 950 Squadron, we went to, on operational liaison duties, did that quite a bit – it was nice to go to other squadrons and find out how they were getting on and tell them what we did.
NM: So that was between your tours?
BH: Yes, yeah.
NM: So, what was the role you played as a liaison officer, then?
BH: Oh! [laughs] I was to sort out the ammunition, and of course, in the early days, we had the pans to slap onto aircraft, onto the gun, but later on, of course, we had machine belt, belt machine, belt ammunition.
NM: Did you see much evolution in air gunnery between 1939 and 1945? Can you –
BH: Yes, well, we had a lot of new aircraft, new guns coming along, American, lot of new American guns that we were using, and also the, the loading, the belts, not just the belts, but ammunition belt, pan, pans. I don’t seem to be able to tell you anything more positive, really, you know, but –
NM: You received a commission during your service, didn’t you? Because you joined as a LAC and -
BH: LAC, yes.
NM: And moved up to flight lieutenant.
BH: Flight lieutenant, that’s right, yes.
NM: What was the history there?
BH: Well, I’d been, I’d been moved from one place to another and volunteered for so much, much, and there was a lot of training and did a lot of training with pupils coming along. [Pause] Show you this last one there; we had an enormous amount of people with us, we had somebody with seventy-two – oh, that was me with seventy two! So, if all the others had had twenty-four trips, then we were – this was a mission for, for training. It was a voluntary – well, it was while I was on a liaison trip to, to Skellingthorpe on training for, for measured score [?], I said that I’d, I’d done seventy, seventy-odd trips and I’d never been to Berlin, so this gunnery leader there said ‘Well, you’re alright, well go with us tonight,’ got to the end of the runway and this aircraft, this aircraft, yeah, this aircraft, and the target was changed to an alternative, and in the end, we went there and bombed that, and as we come away from it, the skipper says, ‘Well, you’ve seen Berlin on the right, on the starboard side,’ he says, but you know of course, the rest of the crew didn’t care too much for this, they wanted to get home, back home [slight laugh]!
NM: Do you keep in touch with Bomber Command through squadron associations or reunions?
BH: No, that’s – do you know, apart from our local reunions at Sywell, I haven’t gone back to any RAF squadrons at all.
NM: And what’s your association with Sywell?
BH: Well, our, our early training was there, we, we – it was the first aircraft we flew, flew in. We – every opportunity we had of getting a flight, we, we, we took it, you know?
NM: And you get – you go back there now for reunions?
BH: Oh, yes; well, we’ve got a Battle of Britain fighter association, and also, there’s a local – we’ve got a gunnery leader and – oh dear, what do we call the things now? We go to Sywell for the reunions for air, air gunners, all the air gunner, local air gunners, and we joined this local Battle of Britain – no, not Battle of Britain fighter association, it’s the – we joined this – oh dear [pause] gunnery association, really. Do you know, I – my mind’s really terrible.
NM: And do you still meet as a group?
BH: Oh yes; at Sywell, we’ve got a, quite a nice little bunch of fellers there, I think about, we’ve had as many as fourteen or fifteen, but it gradually faded, you know, died off a bit, and so we’re only getting about three or four of us go, once a month.
NM: And are these just socials, social get-togethers over lunch, or just to talk about old times?
BH: No, just at the, the aerodrome at Sywell, where there was a bar there, you see, that was the attraction amongst. There were various cross-country trips, you know, to renew our flying experience.
NM: When was the last time you flew? Was it at the end of the war, or have you flown since the end of the war?
BH: [unclear] [sound of turning pages] So, Uxbridge, we had a – was Bishop’s Court – was about ’44, February 44, it says.
NM: You haven’t flown since the war?
BH: No; oh, well, not air force. I, I, we’ve flown private, private flying ‘cause we’ve got some friends in, in France, we used to go nip across, you know, by ordinary aircraft.
NM: Okay. Shall we stop the recording there?
BH: Yes.
NM: I think.
[recording is stopped and restarted]
BH: Well, people had lost their logbook, or oil. So I managed to rescue mine and copy this from it. [Pause] Who was that?
NM: So your logbook doesn’t exist anymore but you’ve copied all this out from it?
BH: Oh, yes, that’s right, remember him.
NM: So, are you still in touch with any of your original air crew?
BH: Well, I was in touch with the skipper that I flew with most of the time, Alan Gowarth [?] of Monaco, Monaco, he was a night pilot, fighter pilot in 23 Squadron in - during the Battle of Britain, and this, this was illustrated with the seventieth anniversary of the Battle being commended.
NM: So you’re still in touch with him? Are you in touch with him now?
BH: No, no, not in the last – I think he might have pegged out since, but yes, I think it was quite late when I still, still in touch with him, March.
NM: So you were in touch by letter. Did you ever meet him again after the war?
BH: No, no, no, of course, he was New Zealand, he went to settle in his home in New Zealand. [Pause, sound of turning pages] Spires of Lincoln coming out of the mist as we got closer to home, a wonderful sight. As a matter of fact, we did have a situation where we were followed in to our own base, and we warned – we’d been warned about this, and anyhow, it was the last minute, really, before he was gonna fire at us, and we noticed that he was almost nose nose to tail with us, and so I told the skipper, you know, ‘We, we, we’re being followed, turn, turn starboard,’ you know, and he says ‘Okay, yes, fair enough,’ and we shook him off, but he got to within, oh, within a few hundred yards, I suppose, of shooting us down, and we got back home.
NM: So, you had a clear sight of this?
BH: Oh, yes, it was a, it was a Heinkel.
NM: And at this point, you were coming into which airfield?
BH: Hmm, not sure.
NM: Was that Wickenby or somewhere in Lincolnshire?
BH: Yes, somewhere, somewhere in Lincolnshire, but I can’t remember which. I should ought to remember because we were near, near to being shot down!
NM: Was that the closest you’ve, you came?
BH: I think so, to our demise, yes. [Pause] We’d been told about this: ‘Be careful, the blighter’s follow, following you in,’ and he almost on our nose, on our tail, you know, with his nose. [Pause] And then the skipper says, ‘Glad you kept your bloody eyes open, Bob!’ [laughs]
[recording is stopped and restarted]
BH: On the way back from the major target, we’d sort of go to various aerodromes, and the skipper’d ask me to go into the front turret so that we could go around the, the dispersal points shooting up all and setting fire to a lot of aircraft. We did this on quite a few occasions.
[recording is stopped and restarted]
BH: I was just wondering where to start, what, what was I talking about, now?
NM: You were talking about the geodetic construction.
BH: Oh, yes, yes, I was thankful and praised God for Barnes Wallis because of his aircraft design. We were over Benghazi, and we had a, a enormous hole inside of the fuselage (about six foot diameter), and the fact that it was geodetic construction of air, the pilot still flew the aircraft quite smoothly, and then we landed in the desert and checked up on what was what, and we took off again! And that was with a six foot diameter hole in the side of the, the fuselage, and of course, as I say, I thank God for Barnes Wallis and the fact that the geodetic construction was so, so wonderful.
NM: And the damage was caused by en –
BH: By flak, but that was bloody uncomfortable to sleep and we – ‘course, when we were in the desert, we, when we went up from Cairo up to the advanced base, we’d have to sleep in the aircraft, but the geodetic construction was as comfortable to sleep on! [laughs] You know, you’d have load of flying kit all on your hip, you know, to stop you from being scarred [?] ‘cause it was in – we slept in the co – oh, if we, if you laid out, you slept outside the aircraft in the desert, in, in the, oh dear, well, if, if you slept outside in the desert, on where there were lots of dried-up salt lakes, but you could have slept on there, and that was – but there were a lot of darn [unclear] about, and they were, actually, they sounded worse than they were, so it was a question sleeping inside the aircraft, but then, of course, you’ve got the geodetic construction, you know, made it uncomfortable, but having a lot of Irvine jackets and trousers, of course, to pad the sides.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Hughes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nigel Moore
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHughesWR150713
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:58:38 audio recording
Contributor
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Beth Ellin
Sally Coulter
Carolyn Emery
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Hughes joined the RAF as war became likely to avoid repeating his father's First World War experience in the trenches and transferred to the RAF Volunteer Reserve when war was declared. He trained on Ansons and then flew in twin-engine Blenheims in the Battle of Britain as part of 23 Squadron. They carried out night defence patrols from the south coast up the Thames Estuary.
Bob volunteered for Bomber Command which had lost a lot of crews. After one air test for Number 9 Bomber Squadron, he went to 149 Squadron at RAF Mildenhall and flew in Wellingtons. He describes the difficulty of targeting well-defended Essen and bombing cruisers in coastal areas, such as Wilhelmshaven.
Bob then transferred to 70 Squadron in RAF Kabrit, Egypt and the Middle East. Water rationing was an issue. They would carry out raids on transport and railway sidings in response to Field Marshal Erich Rommel bringing German forces into the desert via Benghazi.
Bob had instructor stints at the Operational Training Unit at RAF Pershore and Advanced Flying Unit. He went on operational liaison duties to 950 Squadron. Other aircraft in which Bob flew included: Battle, Defiant, Lancasters, Lysanders and Bothas. Bob undertook 73 operations and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross on 12th March 1943.
He describes the evolution in air gunnery during the war. He also praises Barnes Wallis’s geodetic construction.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Suffolk
England--Thames River
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Kibrit
Libya
Libya--Banghāzī
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Essen
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1943
1943-03-12
1944
1945
149 Squadron
23 Squadron
49 Squadron
50 Squadron
70 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
Battle
Blenheim
Botha
Defiant
Distinguished Flying Cross
Lancaster
Lysander
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
promotion
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Pershore
RAF Skellingthorpe
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/276/3429/AHutsonB171030.2.mp3
2ac848ab085e8dc708490c52520aca2e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hutson, Brian
Brian Hutson
B Hutson
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Brian Hutson (b. 1935, 22887820 Royal Air Force).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hutson, B
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HD: Right, I’m Hugh Donnelly for the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Mr Brian Hutson at his home in [redacted] Waltham. The date is the 30th of October 2017 and present at the interview is a Mr Barry Wallace who is also with the International Bomber Command Centre.
BH: Hi folks, you must bear in mind that I was only a boy at the time. I was born in 1935 and war started in ‘39 so I was only about four and a half years old when it started. But I can remember being out, staying outside the house and waiting for eleven o’clock for the Prime Minister to announce that the war had started. What my parents must have thought then: we had three children and they must have looked at us in wonderment, see what was going to happen. We as children, of course, soon as the war started we were, there was Germans and English, and we had made our own guns and bayonets and so on, to play Germans and English with our, the rest of our pals. I used to go with my father, when he was working on the airfield, helping to carry bricks and rubble to make the runways, et cetera and it was interesting to see the airfield develop and I can remember taking out air raid shelters around the village and so on, with the horse and carts and delivering these air raid shelters to the houses, which, looking back, it must have been quite a big effort on their part. When the airfield became operational, we as children would lie in bed [clearing throat] and would count the aeroplanes going out and then would count them coming back again. At that time we had two families living in a two bedroomed cottage, so space was not very available. So we had to sleep in the air raid shelter, four of us children, two at the top and two at the bottom, you know, and then we thought we were safe in there, but how safe we were we don’t know, and then the rest of the people were spread around the two bedroomed cottage. Night time you could hear the planes going out as I said, and you had to have, all the lights had to be out, curtains drawn, not a speck of light and the warden used to come round shouting, ‘Lights Out!’ at a certain time and then he would go right round the village, searching round the village and seeing, seeing if he could see any light. That was a worrying time. As far as I can recall, when the planes was coming back in, as far as I remember there was a red light on a hill, on a house on top of the hill, and that was the only marker there was for the planes that was situated at the end of the runway, and that was the only marker the planes had as far as I can remember. I, when I left school at the evening, I would call at my auntie’s house and she would save me the crust from the end of the loaf and she’d spread home made jam on it - that was delicious. And then I would go to the blacksmith shop and get warm, by the fire, by his fire and at the back of the shop there was a pan with a Lancaster bomber on it and we were able to stand at the back of the plane and watch the airmen getting it ready for the night-time raid. In those days we only had short trousers so when the plane tested the engines the grit from the pan would cut into your legs. Eventually there was, they had balloons, erected out on the shore, I believe they were on, out like Humberston, about that places, and one day one came over, must have been a storm in the night or something, and it came down not far from us, and we as children, being children, managed to cut some of it up and we made kites, and to fly in the sky, but that was a no-no, and my father panicked, and he always used to get up about five o’clock in the morning and he lit the fire and put this barrage balloon on the fire, this barrage balloon material, on the fire, which was like putting petrol on the fire really and it just set fire to the chimney stack, and the soot and everything, and the smoke and this was at lights out as well, five o’clock in the morning, and the soot was coming out the chimney and the flames was coming next and massive, massive big panic going on, you know. [Throat clear] Anyway, that’s how that, and he tried to get rid of the evidence, but he didn’t do it in a very nice way really, or the sensible way. And then of course along came the Home Guard. Well, if you watch “Dad’s Army” today that’s just how it was, just how it was, perfect, they couldn’t have done it better. And my father, [throat clear] when they were on exercises in the, at Grainsby Park, about five mile away, he used to cycle there, the others used to go on the lorry but my father used to cycle there, and then at four o’clock the war had to end, because me father had to cycle back to milk the cows. [Laugh] Oh we had to laugh. He did, and that was the end of the war until he returned back again about six o’clock at night, and then we used to watch the Home Guard practicing drilling, shooting, throwing hand grenades, on a Sunday morning, and that was interesting. And then also, there was an old ambulance there, in the implement shed, the old, what did they call it, Blue Cross or something, anyway this ambulance, we used to play in there, we made it our den. Also remember there was, all the driver had a little tiny slit to look through, about nine inches by two inches, that’s all he had to look through to, driving. We used to wonder how on earth he saw where he was going really. And then eventually along came the KOYLIs, the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. They were based on, opposite the Public House now, which is now Holton Mount. I remember the big shelters there, the big billets there, the wooden ones, they had a big stove in the middle, big round stove in the middle, and they were in there and we used to watch them practicing bayonet practice and there was sacks on stakes, stuffed with straw, and they was charging, all “grrr”, and charge, and stick the bayonets in the sack, you know, and practice. It was frightening really, for children, but we never used to watch it. And then just by us there was a searchlight, on the brow of a hill, just behind where the red light were, where the planes used to come over, and just below there was a big searchlight and it used to swing round, had a swivel chair and they could swing round looking for, looking for planes in the sky - the enemy in the sky - and that was manned by soldiers. And then I used to go to visit soldiers, bearing in mind I’d only be about five or six, seven, and they used to get me on this swivel chair and whizz me round and round and round, until I, when I got off I was dizzy, you know. Of course they were only young children, only young kids then, eighteen, nineteen, and they used to be laughing their heads off, cause I went dizzy, my legs had gone, you know, and then they used to give me, the NAAFI wagon used to come round and they used to give me a cup of tea and a biscuit, I think that’s why I went really, and that was that, you know. But then one night, one night my father worked on the farm and they were harvesting, we were playing in the farmyard, you know, and the soldier, it was a lovely summer’s night, and the soldier came running across the field, I can see him now, coming, and he was: ‘Get down, get down, get down!’, and there was an enemy airplane had come under the radar, about two hundred yards, about two hundred foot up in the air, and you could see these tracer bullets going, firing the plane, and we had to hide in the barn, you know, as children, get in undercover until it we got the all clear, and yeah, that was a frightener, that was a lovely summer’s evening and he came under the radar. I think they shot him down in the end like, but. That was something I shall always remember, seeing this soldier, he must have been brave, to walk across, you know, run across, he had about two hundred yards to run across this open field, he did, and the enemy plane and then also I can remember there was two barriers, one was placed just around what they called Clay Lane corner out at Holton le Clay, one was there and the other one was the other side the village prior to the runway coming in and they would, obviously they would stop traffic when planes was coming down. I remember that and I remember a big convoy of bren gun carriers coming through, one day, must have been about fifty, sixty bren gun carriers coming through, and it, yeah, they were coming through. Now they was all interesting. And bombing raids, we used to listen to the bombing raids in Hull and Grimsby, and then one night, one night there was this big raid on and they tried to bomb the Grimsby to Louth railway line, and they missed by about fifty yards, the plane must, must have been coming straight down, it missed by about fifty yards or so. Bombs were dropped, there was one at New Waltham, one at North Thoresby and I remember that night my mother was hanging her coat up on a hanger, on the door, and boom! It blew her right across the air raid shelter, you know. Luckily she didn’t get too hurt like, but the blast was, it was that close. That was close. It was, and then we actually moved then from where, from that cottage, to about five miles down the road near to the old to the station at Holton le Clay, on the old Chetney rail station and so we moved away from that really, but then, coming on to that, towards the end of the war we used to, the prisoners used to come. We used to have three prisoners come, to work on the farm, and they would, it was hard work and they would come with maybe two cheese sandwiches or something and my mother used to have tea and sugar and milk to make them a cup of tea at break times, and bearing in mind they were only young nineteen year olds, and we got, we got plenty of food then, unofficially I suppose, off you know the farm, potatoes and turnips and eggs and things like this and my mother used to bring them, ask them in, we used to sit round the table she used to say ‘they’re all somebody’s children’, you know what I mean. They were only eighteen nineteen and yeah, and they used to work really, really hard, but course they knew they got well tret so, they used to come on the bus and drop so many off at each farm and when we used to have same three drop off, they knew they was on a good thing, you know. [Laugh] We used to look after them. And then of course there was the end of the war and I remember that, my uncle, he was a prisoner of war, he got captured in Crete, when Crete fell, so he was a prisoner of war with the Germans for about five years and he came home and you know, it was the best thing he thought he’d done, getting caught like. He was out of it, but anyway the Germans apparently looked after him really well, so it works both ways, don’t it. The airfield closed down, we managed to get to that, to a hangar. Oh yeah, the existing hangar what’s there now, when we became teenagers then, a few years later, it all closed down but that one hangar, what’s standing now, we used to just, we could get the door open about two foot and sneak in, there used to be about thirty of us in there on Sunday afternoon playing football, massive big undercover pitch, you know, now that was, that was good. But as I say that’s all I can remember really, ‘cause I was only a boy at the time. But, well, other things I can remember about existing on the airfield now is like the board outside telling you how many members, how many people flew from there and never came back and then there’s the site’s still there of the CO’s house, where the air raid shelter is still there, the Flying Control still there, and some of the runways are still there, the main runway’s still there, which is used now for training learner drivers. So that’s more or less all I can remember as a boy. But if there’s any questions, please ask them.
HD: That’s absolutely super, Brian, thank you very much indeed. Did you ever keep in touch with these prisoners after the war?
BH: No, no we didn’t, I know.
HD: You didn’t, nothing like that.
BH: No, we didn’t actually, but, they was close like, you know, they would say they became family, but you know they were prisoners at the end of the day. They were from Donna Nook, you know, to bring them from Donna Nook, North Somercotes there, but some weren’t so good. When some of the eyeties came, they weren’t so good. Because I mean when you think about it some of them was office workers, you know, and then come, brought on the farm, I mean in those days it was catching the corn sacks, weighed sixteen, eighteen stone, you know, I mean now you’re not allowed to lift more than four! And they were doing it all day. Well they couldn’t do it, I mean they used to get about three stone in the bottom of the sack and put it on and were running to try and keep up and they couldn’t do it because they had to carry the sack, on their shoulders, normally our farm workers, my father and so on, about, I don’t know, twenty, forty yards and then up about fourteen steps to the granary, you know. Can you imagine doing that all day long!
HD: Hard work.
BH: That’s how, how much work, how hard work it was, but they were good, yeah. We survived anyway, we survived to tell the tale.
BH: Lovely Brian, thanks. That gives us an insight into sort of village life and what happened, especially so close to an airfield. How did you get involved, did you get involved at all with the airmen?
HD: Well, they used to, they were only obviously on the airfield there was football pitches and things like this. We used to go and watch them playing football, they used to let us, sneak us in, you know. I remember going past the guardroom on this guy’s handlebars and he stopped at the guardroom and had a few words, and he was actually refereeing, this bloke was, this soldier was, airman, airman, he was refereeing that day. [laughs] We used to watch them. Of course then there were dances and that in the village, you know. We’d get a lot of the airmen and soldiers at the dancing, you know, things like that, but as I say we were only boys. [laughs]
BH: That’s great, thank you very much indeed. Right, we’ve just got another little addition that Brian’s going to add, about the air raids over Hull et cetera, and the butterfly bombs. Sorry, Grimsby, I do apologise. Grimsby that is.
HD: Right, yes well, what I can remember is waking up one morning and there was all this commotion going on and, because what they called butterfly bombs had been dropped at Grimsby, anti personnel bombs, and they were in the shape of pens and pencils and lighters and things like this, and people would obviously pick them up and they would blow their arm off and blow their leg off and there was you know quite a lot of damage done. In fact I had a friend who was going to school and one went off near him and for years and years and years the marks was on the wall where this bomb, this anti-personnel bomb had gone off, so it was very, very frightening and Grimsby was maybe the only place to have these anti-personnel bombs and if you look on Google now you can bring it up and it will tell you all about it.
BH: That’s great, once again, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AHutsonB171030
Title
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Interview with Brian Hutson
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
Format
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00:18:48 audio recording
Creator
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Hugh Donnelly
Date
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2017-10-30
Description
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Brian Hutson was a child during the war. He remembers his father, who worked on building airfields and delivering air raid shelters. He remembers his childhood, sleeping in a shelter and listening to aircraft, air raids, blackouts, playing with friends, helping in the village and watching men train for combat. He was on the farm when it was attacked by an enemy aircraft, as well as times working with prisoners of war, who his mother treated fairly. Brian also recalls anti personnel bombs dropped on Grimsby and their devastation.
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Grimsby
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
Home Guard
Lancaster
prisoner of war
shelter
sport
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1561/34782/SRAFIngham19410620v030001-Audio.1.mp3
ec8f5ae33c3398bd75adf9f2892c5498
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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RAF Ingham Heritage Group
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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RAF Ingham
Description
An account of the resource
25 items in six collections. The collection concerns RAF Ingham and contains interviews photographs and documents concerning:
Andrzej Jeziorski - Pilot 304 Squadron
Arthur Hydes - Boy in Ingham
Brian Llewellyn -ATC
Jan Black - Rear Gunner 300 Squadron
Lech Gierak - Armourer 303 Squadron
Marion Clarke - MT Driver RAF Ingham
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak - Armourer
Stanislaw Jozefiak - Air Ops 304 Squadron - Pilot on Spitfires
Wanda Szuwalska - Admin 300 Squadron Faldingworth
Zosia Kowalska - Cook RAF Ingham
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by the RAF Ingham Heritage Group and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Int: Mainly er, how you came to be involved really, with the airfield at RAF Ingham.
BL: I’ll tell you how I came to be involved then. [Clears throat] When I was in the ATC we had one official visit to Hemswell.
Int: Yes.
BL: And at that time 300 Squadron was at Hemswell, along with another Polish squadron, and an English squadron too, and we went to look and have a go at the Link Trainer. Now I thought this was good, it’s great, flying this Link Trainer, you know, I made a mess of it of course at first, it so I decided what I’d do was, I didn’t have the bike at the time, I didn’t, but it was on the road to Market Rasen, past [indecipherable] corner, up the Corringham road, [indecipherable] road along to Market Rasen. So I took the bus up there to get off at the pub on the corner and it’s only a few yards to the left was the entrance to RAF Hemswell, and course I got through the guard, it is war time and of course they were all people that had been conscripted and sort of lazy type things, you know, if you talked to them, nothing official or anything like that, so I just got through you see. I just walked through into there and I decided, to take me knife, fork, spoon and mug and so I went, I don’t know where I went to first, I can’t remember. I remember ending up in the Link Room place, the Link Trainer room and there was a sergeant there who was only too keen to let me have a go on it you see. And this became quite a regular thing, again, and of course I took my log book, I’d have it signed and there was a description of what I’d done and I suppose there’s some kind of a record, because I mean, it’s interesting because in those days everybody knew that we were being trained to follow on, that was the whole purpose of the Air Training Corps, so we would follow on as the blokes got killed we were the next ones to go and get killed! So again, so it was recorded there. That was that, although I did go to other RAF stations, in the same way actually. I remember going to Kirton in Lindsey too, in the same way, we weren’t allowed in at Blyton because that’s an operational training unit, well we were but there was no flying, and there was no flying at Hemswell for that matter - they were they were all on operations you see. And what happened after that was the business of sport afternoons which was Wednesday, yes Wednesdays, that’s right. Thursdays was activities and that’s ATC. Sports afternoon Wednesday, so there were a number of us, including Mick Burnside, there were four of us actually, who, yes right four, yeah, who um, objected to sport and we didn’t want to take part, we’d nothing to do with it. Cause I mean, the Idea of it, it’s like today it’s like the Olympics. I mean so what, if somebody wants to run round in circles and coming back to the same place they started from you’re not achieving very much are you really! So that was the idea see. Whatever happens in sport, nothing’s achieved at the end of it! [Indecipherable] Really. So we were not keen on sport. And quite unexpectedly, er, the headmaster said to us, he said look, if you’re not going to take part in sport he said, put on your ATC uniforms on and stand by the end of the drive, there. So right, so I did. Along came a little pick-up truck with a very tall, very tall, WAAF Corporal who was Polish, and she said come with us please, or come with me please. So I thought all right, don’t know where we’re going, so we piled in the back of this pick-up truck and we went to Ingham, and the, I’d never actually been into Ingham before. I’d gone along that road of course, even, in fact I even cycled as far as Lincoln along the top road, as we called it, it’s the top road to Lincoln, you could see Lincoln cathedral actually, if you looked along that road, you can see the Spire sticking up there.
Int: You can, yes.
BL: So, I can remember we went in there, we suddenly turned off to the left, it was a right hand turn, a very sharp right hand turn, left hand turn, sorry, then there was a tall hedge on that side, on the right hand side, then we turned, suddenly again, left, very short trip and then there we were, this was the entrance to RAF Ingham. It was quite a sort of low, oh not, it didn’t make much of an impression at all. [Rustling] There were some very low brick buildings along the right hand side and along the left. We couldn’t see how far they went up to the left but they stopped abruptly on the right hand side and went through the door and the whole place was crowded with people, there were so many, but loads of people there. It was a very active station, they were all, I mean compared to the RAF, there was no slouching about sort of skiving, they were all purposefully doing something. I remember one of the first impressions I got was of a tannoy system, which was an earphone inside a cone made from a cornflakes packet, and that was their tannoy! And by God it worked too [laugh], cause it was only a small place you see. And standing there, you know, wondering what was going on and out came, up came a Polish Warrant Officer, a man of very few words, he didn’t speak very much English at all, whereas the WAAFs spoke a lot better than the fellas, the fellas were a bit slow, but the WAAFs were much better. And he said, you know, you’re going to crew with us on test flights. I said really? I mean just, so yes he said, and he pointed out, said you with navigator – that’s me - because at that time in the May of that year they had dropped the second pilot, there was only one pilot, so the navigator was in effect the second pilot, and of course he was right by the, the pilot was here, the navigator was just on the other side, further back, with his own little cabin with a door and a curtain.
Int: What was the reason for dropping to one pilot?
BL: Because they couldn’t supply them!
Int: Right.
BL: There was, I mean this was the trouble you see! There were aircrew shortages all the time. Whereas you could try and train a gunner fairly easily, or a wireless operator fairly easily, you couldn’t train pilots very easily. And besides they were dropping out you see, because they weren’t up to the job - only a certain number got through. So they decided the navigator would have enough skill to bring the aircraft back in an emergency.
Int: Right.
BL: They could take over if the pilot was killed or in any way incapacitated. So in fact acting as second, not that I thought that I’d ever be doing anything and, but we had to do everything properly. The first thing we had to do was to learn to pack our parachutes, we had to pack our own parachutes. I can still remember this. It was a long room, with long tables; a big long room with long tables. On the left hand side they were all hanging up as it were to air, they hung them up in there and put them across the table and you had to go through certain motions and there was the, a little wire thing at the top that swung thing, as if pull the parachute out of the pack, so it was all, you know, well developed, was all perfectly good pure silk. We only used silk, course it came on the black market as women’s’ clothes as well you see, [laugh] get some parachute silk! But parachutes were expensive and you had to sign for them and this sort of stuff. Cutting a long story short, what happened in the end, we went out to look for this Wellington and first of all I thought crikey what a place this is. There were two hangars, I think they were two hangars with curved rooves, which were not to be used for any purpose cause all the aircraft were out in the open and people, lots of people, were working on them. This one aircraft, the one we were going to use, was drawn up, there was a bit of a tarmac in the front of the building, a sort of concrete area which it was parked on and we had to get inside and we was, the pilot sort of showed us how to, in an emergency, to brace ourselves against the main spar which ran, made quite a big step in the middle of the Wellington, you had a big step in the middle. That was the main spar where the wing came through and if you were going to crash land, you got behind this, braced yourself against it so you didn’t get thrown forward and out. Like in a car, it’s like a safety belt.
Int: Absolutely yeah.
BL: Kept you from being chucked out. So we had to do that, then we went to our places. Oh I’d been issued with a little wallet by the way, which contained a Douglas Protractor, they’re the sort of navigational instruments which I had used before by the way cause I’d done quite a bit of navigation from Kirton Lindsay, in an Oxford I’d done some navigating, not that I got anywhere with it, well later on even the Air Squadron I didn’t get anywhere with it; I mean my navigation was pretty poor really. Anyway, we were issued with this, these, and eventually I got back to my cabin, you see, and it was lovely. I could close the door and it was all by the lamp, cause you had to see things and you had the curtain to prevent you making light outside or putting light into the fuselage, which could be seen from outside, but you had to have the window to have a look outside you see, see where you were cause you did checks on the ground. In those days navigation was DF, direction finding which was a loop aerial, you know about how that worked? The egg thing on the top, you can see it, the late Wellingtons had them and the idea was that if the loop was lying along, the lateral line of the aircraft, it was nothing. But if you turned the loop it would progressively pick up the signal, from one side or another and you had two transmitters on the ground which sent out signals, and when you heard them loud, loud and clear on both [emphasis] sides, you turned until you got the loop aerial lined up on one side and then on the other side and then you’d got yourself a fix actually, because you knew then, that in between there, the neutral would give you your position. If you turned that between the two of those, the neutral between the two, it would give you your position, which you could then plot. But of course then you had to do this regularly because of drift and things like that, so you’d get cross wind which would send you miles off course, could be bad if you’d a cross wind. Anyway, I think the first time we went in there was no Gee in the aircraft, I don’t believe so, no there couldn’t have been, otherwise I would have noticed, it was later installed the Gee, anyway, I thought yeah, settle down quite well but the thing about the Wellington, what I liked about it was that it didn’t smell, I don’t know why, but it just didn’t smell! For example the Dominie, the de Haviland Dominie, which was a plywood and fabric-ed over was the most horrible smell of hydraulic oil, fuel and dope.
Int: Dope, yeah.
BL: And it’s really quite a sickening smell, isn’t it; most unpleasant smell. Wellington didn’t smell of anything and when we looked it first, we noticed it’d got lots of holes in the fuselage, great big gaps where they’d not bothered to repair it, although the wings were patched over quite well. And anyway take, well first of all we taxied out. We couldn’t go, I looked at the airfield by the way. There was an old farmhouse, slap in the middle, with big tall trees and, there’s no runways at all, just grass, and the grass was all furrowed and pitted and things like that. It was in a really damp condition because you see where we were, this was in fact the dip side of the escarpment, the limestone slab that, which constitutes the Lincolnshire Heights, it’s a big slab of limestone, the scarp slope’s quite steep. The other slope is not so steep but it is a slope, so you get water sort of collecting there in little hollows and it doesn’t go away because off London Heath there, you’ve got quite a bit of clay so it was a really, quite a soggy place really, and it got worse if it got damp, and it had been that first time cause the weather was actually, there was low cloud, it was in summer, and it was very warm, but again overcast, like it often is in Lincolnshire. I noticed when we went round, I went round the front, the nose turret, flies squashed against the Perspex where flies had been blown against the glazing in the turret. Anyway we got in, take off point, well we didn’t go along any kind of peri track or anything, we had to get to the furthest end of the, which at that time was the northern end, the northern end of the airfield and we had to get there in order to turn round to get our take off run, and the thing was, I can remember quite clearly, we didn’t go along the side, we headed straight for the point actually, without any intermediate runway or anything like that, so we really kept to the dry points and I can remember going over, what appeared to be, the remnants of turnips, because you could hear them – bump, bump, bump, you know you could hear it shaking as it went over the tops of these turnips been left in the soil! So we got to the end and actually it was airborne in a quite remarkably short time. I was quite surprised how short it took us to take, then of course we were up and look at the countryside and so on, and then we were in cloud, and it went very dark and all the cloud vapour was coming in through the little holes in the fuselage as it got misty inside as well. [Laugh] Then there were flashes, flashes, flashes, and then suddenly we were out of the cloud and above the top, and it was like [indecipherable] in another country, great big flat snowfield it looked like, with big pinnacles, right in the sky, intensely blue sky, it was really quite deep, deep blue sky, it was absolutely brilliant sunshine.
Int: That would only be a couple of thousand feet even, wouldn’t it.
BL: Yes. It’s amazing, you know. I thought I’ll have a look at this and see, get up to the astrodome and get a better view. So I decided to do a bit of navigating, so I didn’t have a sextant though. Went up the astrodome and the thing that I noticed about it was the way the aircraft was reacting to the airflow: the tailplane was flapping up and down all the time, and when the aircraft turned, even slightly, the fuselage twisted. [Laughter] Yes, it’s quite amazing really. And so it went, I mean we just stooged around a bit until everything was okay, and nothing happened, just landed and that was it. We were taken home, the place we came from, and the following week, I don’t know, we must have done it about five odd times I think, all together during that summer, about five times I reckon, yeah. In this time we were learning more and more about what was going on and the idea was that the, we were brought along there and I think it was mainly for our education because there could have been other people on the unit that could have crewed, but you know, we were chosen to crew it you see, on the air tests – it's to do with the weights you see, didn’t have the weights [indecipherable], course the bombing doesn’t affect the weight, the bomb goes across the centre of gravity so you don’t change the COG with the bomb load, it just get more heavy that’s all. It was the second time that we went on this that, it was quite surprise, when I looked out, and I saw the pilot, the pilot did this to me with his finger, just like this, see. By God he wants me for something, so I went up there and he says, and he stood up and of course the second pilot seat was still there, but folded back. He said er, sit down he says, and then he said to me, if nose go up: push forward. But I knew that anyway and there I was, and he got out and he went down the fuselage [laugh] with this Wellington bomber at the age of fourteen, Wellington bomber! [Laugh] I couldn’t reach the pedals, but I wouldn’t ‘t adjust it at all anyway, but I’d got experience on the Link Trainer in those days just six, in the Link Trainer it was just six instruments there, you didn’t have any extra at all, just six instruments, it was just pure flying. So I did the same with this. So I made sure the artificial horizon was properly lined up and that the aircraft was flying at correct airspeed, and I checked the air speed didn’t vary. I fiddled a bit, you could do that of course; it was flying correctly before, it was only a matter of restoring it to what it was. So I thought well I’ll do a little aileron turn, [laugh] see what happens, so I turned, moved the speculums round this way and the control was so amazingly light! I didn’t expect it to be so light, there was hardly any weight at all on them - I was used to flying the Link Trainer, [crash] it came round, oh I’ve broken the thread now, what was I saying?
Int: Aileron turn, shallow.
BL: Oh yes, it came round and then I thought I’d better bring it back to where we were so I did, brought it back, I don’t know how long he was away, but he was away down the fuselage for quite a long time. So I don’t know, I don’t think he was doing anything I think he wanted to get out the way see what happened to me, cause he could get back, we had enough height for him to get back and sort things out if anything went wrong. That’s about it really. The memories of the airfield itself and where things were, because we got the impression that it was like they were in Poland when they went down to the Tatras to escape the German bombing of the airfields in the north, you know the story of that. They went down the Tatras mountains and of course, like the Germans, they were trained to live off the ground, well, like the British were typical thing in the Army, you just plunder and rape and pillage. It’s always been the same, so you don’t ask people’s pleasure, you just take what you need, in times of war, and the Germans did the same. When I was a student in Tubingen the street, the Dockstrasse, was one platoon from the, the 78th Storm Division, was the local unit, and the officer, I never knew him, he lived at the bottom, then opposite was Ulrich, the corporal, who had, who kept chickens and my landlord was there were, but he was a flight sergeant, a colour sergeant in the platoon, and we had, you know, all the people in there round about were all ex-78 apart from one who was Luftwaffe, who was a [indecipherable] pilot who I got to know quite well and a very nice chap he was too! [Laughter] He bombed the fire station in Birmingham!
Int: Really!
BL: Yes, oh yes! He said you know, you know, talking about the bombing, he said to me one time, he said we didn’t care who won the war as long as it stopped. [Laughter] The Germans had quite a good time before the war, they were quite, not the kind of place you imagine it to be.
Int: No, no. So the Polish squadrons, in order to survive in Lincolnshire, lived off the land as well.
BL: Oh yes. This was the thing, they didn’t need their rations. See, now what you’d got there at the time, I remember going along there, along the Wolds road, because people weren’t allowed to have shotguns during the war, no arms for civilians at all, apart from farmers who could shoot, have a shotgun, but you couldn’t shoot for sport any more; that was gone. So the rabbits were breeding like mad, till they had to introduce myxomatosis to control the population, that’s what came about. But the whole place was black with rabbits and I mean black because a lot of them were black rabbits and they were all over the fields leading down to the bottom of the valley along the scarp slope, because it’s in, it’s just fields just running straight down, steep fields of course, and you’ve got loads of rabbits there. You’ve got, you’ve also got -
Int: There are lakes at Fillingham and woods in that area as well I imagine.
BL: Oh yes, well there were woods just on the far, I notice it’s still there, on the far side of the airfield, up against the woods itself, the buildings are still there; they were the sleeping quarters for the aircrew. Because they’d come home at night, er in the early morning, they’d go to bed and sleep through until they started off because they went on ops every night, not like the Brits who had a tour of ops.
Int: So the tests took place in the afternoon, ready for operations that night.
DL: That’s right, and the aircraft were repaired on unit, which could be easily done because you could repair this um, er, geodetic structure thing, well, they say it’s geodetic, actually it’s really, it’s tubular sections with flattened ends and you could repair by using pop rivets.
Int: Yes.
BL: So you could use pop rivets to do, repair that and of course the engines were perfectly straightforward because the Poles already knew the engines, they’d be used to these engines. Of course if you had anything bad you’d have to get spares from somewhere. But I mean the engineers weren’t far away, so you know, you’d get spares quite easily. I remember Blyton was always having spares delivered because they a lot of trouble with the Stirlings, you know, always folding their undercarriages on landing and things like that. Anyway they slept during the day and then they went on ops during the night and the people who were actually repairing the aircraft were prepared to work all night, a bit like John, a bit like your dad, he’d work all night: get the job done. It’s the same thing you see. They prepared their own food, they shot, also, the other thing was this, there were lots and lots of pheasants in Lincolnshire and they were breeding wild, they still are! I saw one once with Robin, one crossing the road! There’s still this, they’re still breeding wild, they’re breeding like mad and other game birds too, you’d get a certain amount of grouse and partridges too, in Lincolnshire – there were quite a lot of things actually. And then of course fresh water fish, they’d go for those too, cause the Poles liked things like carp, they have carp for Christmas for example, don’t they. Well there you are. So they could live off the land. As far as vegetables were concerned, well of course farmers didn’t mind them taking vegetables from their fields because I mean they were our allies, they were working like mad, the war and so forth.
Int: Do you remember any particular characters, were there?
BL: Yes, but I can’t. The thing is you see, it comes from so many different sources, and so much information. First of all living there, in Gainsborough, and the things that led up to it, then secondly the fact I was in the RAF not far away of course, at Manby, and I was in the Sergeants Mess and of course a lot of the NCOs there, not a lot but a good number of them, were actually Polish, who didn’t want to go home to Poland because they’d lost everything kind of thing. They’d married here, and English girls, and some of them got divorced too! Or some just didn’t want to go home, and they just stayed here, and they, the RAF was their home [emphasis], and they’d remustered. I mean the Gardening Sergeant was Polish for example, we had a lot of those. And the gardening was damn good too, you know, he was a good grower of vegetables, he was, really. And the gardening side, he had other people. We had a Red Indian too, from Wyoming, was an air gunner and he couldn’t read and write. He was an interesting character that was, told me some stories about you know, uncanny sort of knowledge, yet couldn’t read or write but by gosh he’d got an uncanny knowledge of other things. There’s, things I was told by people in the RAF, and then there were other things too, well, the fact that I was Armstrong Whitworth. So I mean, I didn’t meet any Poles there particularly, but of course I was concerned with aircraft all the time and I knew, I knew bit about aircraft engineering, [chuckle] and a great defender of the Whitley, and a great defender of course of the P11C which I’ve always been very, very keen on as an aircraft because it’s just right really.
Int: Did the squadron generally, were they fairly self contained on the airfield or did they spill out into the community much?
BL: No. Not so much out, going outside into the community, as far as I remember.
Int: No.
BL: We had a lot of them at Blyton. I can remember these silver things they had on their chests, which they had wings and then decorations they’d wear on their chests you see, like chains and things, with silver things dangling from them. So as well as wearing RAF wings they wear their Polish wings too. I can’t remember these people in pubs in Gainsborough at all. But I can remember the Italian prisoners of war, in the pubs and even the German prisoners of war in the pubs. They weren’t supposed to go and have any association with us, but the Italians were great guys. Oh yes, yes. The Germans were great farm workers too, of course the Italians too, they were both of them very good on farms. That’s what we did with our prisoners of war: they were kept on military bases and they went out to work in the countryside. We had one at Manby, prisoner of war compound was at the back of I Wing just by the side of the wall that separated the rest from the officers mess. Apart from having razor wire on the top there, and I don’t think there was razor wire round the front of it, no in fact there wasn’t, apart from that, and the fact they were guarded, of course, all the time, they were quite free. I’ve got their books from their library. I’ve got some of those now. Told you about those, didn’t I.
Int: Yes, yeah.
BL: What’ll we do with these sarge, they said, shall we chuck ‘em away? I said no, give ‘em to me, I’ll get rid of ‘em, and I brought them home. They were all Nazi books you see, which the British authorities thought anything in German will do for these people! So they gave them Nazi books to read. [laugh] The Germans used to think we were mad actually. Well we are of course, as we know, still are. We still are at this moment, crazy.
Int: Living in Gainsborough were you aware of the operations that went at night? Did you see the aircraft coming and going?
Bl: Yes, you bet! God, you’ve no idea! [Emphasis]
Int: And were there enemy aircraft as well?
Bl: Yes, yes, including the flying bombs. We heard the flying bombs going over every night, till the night one stopped, because they were so loud you know; it was like a two stroke motor bike.
Int: This was the V1.
BL: The V1. Eines. The propulse jet. It’s like a motor bike there, they were going over and they were actually being launched from the air over the North Sea, to target Manchester, of all places, but they were targeting Manchester. And you could hear these things going over and then one night, one stopped. Thought crikey, cause when you hear it stop that’s going down. So we waited it, for it to go off and it did of course in the end. I though god where’s that gone, and it happened to have landed on Lea Marshes, that was all right, then that was butt of the explosion altogether. But you got a lot of aircraft coming back that were on their last legs and crashing short of the airfield, particularly Halifaxes, making for Blyton, because the Halifax was a bit unstable actually at low speeds. It could swing quite easily that’s why they enlarged the fin, big rectangular fin actually, instead of, they changed, enlarged the fin area to give it better control but it was always a bit of a dicey aircraft to handle at low speeds. And what used to happen was you’d get one coming back, it seemed to be just over the house, and you could hear one engine, sputter, sputter, sputter, then you’d hear it later on, you’d hear often the big, enormous bang when it crashed. Very loud crash. We used to go out to them actually, and see if we could do anything, but the main guards on them actually came from the Army camp at Connington. Connington camp, it’s a REME camp up there.
Int: Yes, it’s the Army, I know exactly where you are, yeah.
BL: The REME camp, they used to do the guarding of the crashed aircraft rather than the Police or the Home Guard or anything. It was the only Army unit round about so they, available in the immediate area, so they did the guarding, but we could get there before they did. I mean one came down on Copeland’s field which was just over the Avenue. I think they have the Lincolnshire Fair sometimes is on there, at least it has been, hasn’t it, Copeland’s field.
Int: Not recently, I think it’s been built on, I think I know where you mean.
BL: Well you know the Avenue, don’t you?
Int: Yes.
BL: Well just on the other side of that.
Int: The uphill side.
BL: Yes. That’s right, that’s Copeland’s field and the little ponds with newts in them I remember, very clear water, but one came down there I remember, that was a Halifax heading for Blyton, didn’t make it; all the crew killed. We got there first and we saw them, saw the crew, you know, that was pretty awful really.
Int: Hmm. Tactically, what would enemy aircraft be doing in the area because there were no major civilian targets? Were they attacking the airfields?
BL: Yes, that and reconnaissance of course. That was the business with the Me410, that was the thing that, my part in the war effort. [Laugh] The only time I’ve been, come face to face with the enemy that was. Told you about that?
Int: Er, was this when you were cycling?
BL: It was. I got me bike, a bright yellow bike, and I was heading for, I know where I was heading? What was I heading for? Oh it was my favourite place I used to go swimming, that’s right: Donna Nook. That was before even I went to Manby, before I knew it was, you know, used as a bombing range, but used to swim from there because in those days it wasn’t muddy, it was sandy. It’s changed. It was sandy all the way out and the seals were still there, but further out, right now you see them on the horizon. I used to go swimming there cause the water was very nice and it was also a wonderful bay full of wildlife, you’d got natterjack toads, you’d got sand lizards and all kinds of funny plants there, it was a real, a real wildlife haven, Donna Nook.
Int: Yes, I think it still is.
BL: Probably still is, yeah. And that’s where I was going, that’s right. And of course the trick, the usual trick was I went to, ah yes of course, Market Rasen, Woody’s Top, youth hostel.
Int: Youth hostel. I know where you are, yeah.
BL: And then I’m straight down, the left of Louth, don’t go into Louth itself, I think North Thoresby is where I went through, I think, I don’t know, it’s somewhere there, and I could get there quite easily, then, after, I stayed at Woody’s Top that night. I was of course down there by in the morning which meant I could get back to Gainsborough in one hop. So I’d cycle back to Gainsborough direct from Donna Nook, and having got up got up, got out of Market Rasen, I came up to the top of the Wolds it was somewhere near Caswell Park, the racecourse, used to be there, it still is maybe.
Int: Yeah. It's probably kind of round near RAF Ludford, actually, not far from there.
BL: Yeah, well anyway, I came up there and I got to the top of the hill and it was um, a, there was no hedges and no fences, and there were just sheep up there. So having got to the top of the hill, I sort of had a bit of a rest, had a look, and then I saw an aircraft ahead of me like that and I thought a bit low innit, what is it? And it was going quite slowly, took it some time to come up. Then I saw it was quite unmistakeably an Me410 because it took, had a face like a frog, it sloped down to the front like that, it was just like a frog, frog face was coming towards me and very low, just following the road. Oh crikey. So as it came past me, I could see, I thought then what can I do? All I did, I left me bike and lay flat on the ground and I could, I watched this aircraft go past, and it was quite slowly again, I saw the Barbette guns moving about, which the ones at the side controlled by the pilot and it’s half inch machine guns and it’s moving about, like this, they were moving about. Thought crikey gonna test his guns and I knew that he carried more ammunition than our British fighters did, the Germans did, they carried more ammo than we did, so, but instead of that it just went straight on. [Dog barking] What I did then was, I got up and looked, there was a farmhouse just across the way there and I went up the farmhouse, there was a lady in there and I said look, I’m sorry but I’ve got to make an emergency phone call, just seen an enemy aircraft heading up the road. So I got through, I got through to Market Rasen Police Station and they were quite interested in this. And they said well okay, we’ll handle this, can you give your name, like they usually do, and my address, which I did. I said you know, this is not a hoax, or any way a mistake, I’m in the ATC I do a lot of aero like recognition.
Int: Recognition.
BL: So I mean I know that it’s right. So anyway, that was it really. [Cough] I got back to school, headmaster, Hopkins, said to me we’ve just had a phone call from RAF Croxall, on your information said to tell you that we scrambled two B51Ds and they got the enemy 410 over the North Sea.
Int: Really!
BL: So was saying good work he said to me, pass on the word. So he passed on the word see. [Laughter] Oh yes. See what he did was this, he was going to fly low, till he identified his target, then the German cameras that had such good lenses, we in fact nicked their cameras in the Spitfire later on, [cough] climb to a height where they could get a good area to use their cameras to take pictures of airfields and things like dispersals of aircraft, where they were, in case they were attacked and would know where they were, [coughing]. And then it was later on that year, I was an ARP messenger boy, I had to sleep at the bottom of Spital Hill, there’s a railway bridge and on the, if you go down there and you turn right, you see some little doors in the wall.
Int: Right.
BL: That was the ARP Post.
Int: Okay.
BL: My father used to go in there and we used to stay the night there in case we were called out, you know, or bombs started, stay there, and I had to go back. I got up very early in the morning because I had to go to school and that sort of stuff. So, I remember going up Spital Hill and hearing what I knew was cannon fire, because I’d heard it before, German cannon fire, because in those days you didn’t have of course the electric ignition of the charge like the Hunter had, on the Aden guns, it had a firing pin which had to go back and forth you see, you had the also the load which charged into the breech very like this, to-ing and fro-ing, which disappeared later, so therefore cannon fire, anything higher than a rifle, went slower, rifle calibre, machine gun was quite fast, but a cannon fire was boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, that sort of thing. That’s cannon fire! And I went up the hill and I could see, because if you go up the hill, Blyton is just actually beyond Thonock Park.
Int: Yes, it is, isn’t it, yeah.
BL: Just across, Thonock Park’s there, and it’s on a ridge, and I could see flashes going off and explosions. Thought crikey, you know, they’re being shot up and it was actually, that was what had happened: the German idea was it’s like if you want to destroy a wasp’s nest, you stay near the nest and destroy the wasp coming back.
Int: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
BL: So we’d been raiding Germany and we’d be coming back damaged. The thing to do was hang around, the base, and get the bombers as they came back. When the crews were tired, they’d be injured, aircraft damaged and careless because they were home. They weren’t bothered and they never thought about being attacked and there they were and believe it or not, of course it wasn’t in the news they gave you, never saw anything in the news about things like this, but local people said this: every single aircraft coming back was destroyed, there was not one escaped, everything went. I thought well I’ll go down to Blyton. The place was closed up completely: nobody there. Nothing. No crews, no aircraft, nothing; Blyton had gone completely. That was, yeah, towards the end of the war. Well actually it was, it was actually at that time an operational unit although it wasn’t supposed to be because it always had been operational, no it's Heavy Conversion Unit, that’s what it was actually. Starting off with Wellingtons then going immediately to Stirlings, and then soon after that to Halifaxes. Never Lancasters. No Lancasters there.
Int: No. 300 Squadron, that became of them?
BL: They carried on to the end of the war, then they disbanded of course. But they were the first Polish squadron to be formed and the last to go. And they soldiered on in Bomber Command till the end. The other two Polish squadrons associated with Lincolnshire both joined Coastal Command, where they did work with reconnaissance and [rustling] destroying U-boats; they carried torpedoes.
Int: So they were, what type of aircraft, fighter aircraft or, were there any Polish fighter aircraft squadrons?
BL: [Loudly] Yes! They were the first! Do you know about the Pole fighter squadrons! Why they had separate squadrons anyway?
Int: Well I imagine it’s having to do with having been invaded and losing all their aircraft.
BL; No it’s to do with friction between British pilots and Polish pilots.
Int: Ah, right.
BL: It’s the time of Battle of Britain of course cause I mean the Battle of Britain was fought shortly after started Poland’s being overrun in 1939, the end of September, end of ’39, about a year later. Well of course there weren’t so many Polish pilots managed to get back actually, getting back in bits and pieces, dribs and drabs all the way through that time. But the first, there was the Los, of course, was the Polish Bomber, that never got put into production properly, but there were really no effective Polish bomber squadrons at the beginning of the war: they were pretty well all fighter squadrons. So they came over, when they did come, as fighter pilots. So what better, we’ll just post them to our fighter squadrons that had been fighting the Battle of Britain. So they came, and that’s when the trouble started. First of all, they wouldn’t obey the rules. They chattered over the intercom all the time, and they called up their friends by name, [emphasis] which in the RAF is absolutely non-u; you never name yourself. You’re given a position: you’re Leader, you’re Red One, you’re Red Two, you’re Red Three, Yellow One, Two, Yellow Three. [Cough] Your flights in fact are coded, in colours. And what they do is this, you say, you know, they say Red One to Red Leader, bandits four o’clock high, something like that, they’d just say that you see. Then you’d stop talking because you’d given your message, you didn’t talk more than you had to, you kept RT silence. You switch your mic off at the end of the, didn’t actually switch, off, so that you weren’t tempted sort of add anything else. But the Poles kept their microphones on all the time and they’d chatter, chatter, chatter using their names! They were making jokes throughout the battle, exhorting each other: go one sort of thing, get this one you know. I mean it was just not on; I mean they were told off about this, you should not [emphasis] do this, you have to observe our British rules. Then they tended to be freelance as well. This of course is the time when, this was actually refers to a bomber squadron but this is a story which I’ve heard in different forms. The bombing of barge in the Merse in Holland where a bomber crew was going off to do some practice bombing at a bombing range; didn’t return. Thought what’s going on, then eventually it did come back, where’s it been? Well he said, a pity to waste the bombs, I’d better find something to drop it on, so went across to Holland, cause it’s not far away from Lincolnshire is Holland, and he found this German barge and he dropped his smoke bombs on the German barge and the Germans thought it was gas so they dived into the water. [Laugh] And Bunny’s reputed to have said is: “Every little helps”, which is Tesco’s motto! [Laughter] So I don’t know where this came from, I mean it’s a funny thing, but “Every little helps”. That’s what he’s supposed to have said. I’ve got it in print somewhere because it’s passed into RAF lore you know, as to who was this. There were stories about, for example, about the Polish pilots being called communists, and oh you got us into this mess anyway, you, you can fight for yourself, we wouldn’t have had to come to your rescue. That caused them to come to blows a few times. So it was decided then to separate the Poles from the RAF all together, so that, so they had their own command, and there was a Commander in Chief, but the chap was Sikorsky, was the Commander in Chief of all [emphasis] the Polish forces in the country and you had one who was in charge of the Air Force, I’ve forgotten his name, he was another Polish fellow, and they, the thing about Sikorsky was that he didn’t last. He, he died actually, shortly after he came to this country, because he discovered about the massacre of the Polish officers – you’ve heard about that?
Int: No.
BL: Oh, well this was done by the er, Russians I think yes it was, Russians, who decided to massacre the Polish officer elite, in one go. Which they did. Pretty well. They shot them all, you know, in, en masse and it broke his heart so much he just lost all heart you see, and he died actually. And er, it’s quite, you know, it’s very interesting about the way, it’s, the way these leaders feel about the Polish people. I mean like who is it, the pianist, who’s another one, wasn’t he, the one who, was he Prime Minister or President of Poland?
Int: I don’t know.
BL: Oh you do! “Dangerous Moonlight”, it’s made a film about him, Paderewski, Paderewski, he was a concert pianist, but was also either Prime Minister or President of Poland. The film about that is called “Dangerous Moonlight”, it’s by Anton Wahlbrook. If you see it any time, it’s the television it’s shown; that’s about the Polish Brigades. Lech Walesa is another one, he’s, the way that they sort of stubbornly resisted all attempts to make them communist. [Laugh] You see they weren’t communist no, although the world thought they were you see, yeah. Then as I said, the way the Poles could survive on their own and of course when they went down to the Tatrus Mountains it’s, I’ve seen a film of this. It’s interesting, you’ve got broad rivers, which are fast flowing too, cliffs, forests and little bits of grass there between, which are in between woodland – bit like Ingham! [Laugh] [Cough] No grass and of course then you could easily move on to another airfield if you want to, which they did, and they moved progressively south. But they lived by hunting in the forest. And of course there you’ve got things like deer, wild boar, got bears, [chuckle] yeah, some people eat bears even – the Red Indians did -and so you know, they were well able to look after themselves wherever they went. It was the same, just the same at Ingham!
Int: Right, are we.
BL: You’ve got to, really, interesting thing about this is, the fact is when you come I’ll find it for you, remember this, Hymn for all Slavs, national anthem, [singing] Bunnies All Furry, a Russian, Russian song [singing].
Int: That’s the Lincolnshire Poacher!
BL: It is! So what they say about the Poles in Lincolnshire. [Laughter] You’re home from home, aren’t you.
[Other]: You wouldn’t happen to know how to say one to five in Russian would you?
BL: What, one to five?
[Other]: Count one to five in Russian.
BL: I think I could but I can’t remember. [Laughter] Oh yes, I can, but I can’t remember actually.
[Other]: It’s Tim, Tim wants to know.
BL: Who wants it?
Int: Tim.
[Other]: Tim. Am I spoiling your thing?
Int: Right. I think that’s enough to be going on with really, there’s a lot to, have to try and remember as much as you can really, cause there are a lot of people who are interested in the war time history of that area.
BL: Well what I’d be interest is that, in a place like Connington we also had a very high Polish population, but had their own radio programme one time you know. “Poles Apart” it was called, half in English, half in Polish. And by the way, the Alma’s now gone; it’s going to be a manicure parlour, course the market killed that because cause there’s a Polish stall in the market you see. I just wonder is there anybody in Coventry has got connections with these people?
Int: Possibly, yeah.
BL: You see it’s not only the only people that can remember, I’ve also got the, people may be relatives of people who’ve been killed. I’ve got the names of all the Polish airmen who were killed. You know, it’s all there in the literature. I’ve got all the captains, the pilots, of the aircraft that’d been killed so the crew can be identified from that.
Int: Yeah, yeah.
BL: There is a Polish War Memorial with the names on it too which, it would be interesting if anybody in Coventry could throw any light on this as well.
Int: Hmm. Right well I’ll just.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Brian Llewellyn
Description
An account of the resource
Brian Llewellyn was a member of the Air Training Corps during the war and spent time with the RAF as well as the Polish Air Force. He talks about his time in Lincolnshire, including various stations he visited and his first flight. Brian had many different experiences in the area and speaks about some of these as well as the Poles and their history.
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:56:56 audio recording
Identifier
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SRAFIngham19410620v030001-Audio
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Pending OH summary
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
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Anne-Marie Watson
300 Squadron
bombing
ground personnel
Me 410
prisoner of war
RAF Blyton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/314/3471/PParsonsCER1601.2.jpg
f30942c1b075659474b5aa7629b82c74
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/314/3471/AParsonsCER160817.2.mp3
8cf12b67c2a559ad9b550a29e665f2d3
Dublin Core
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Title
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Parsons, Cecil
Cecil Edgar Robertson Parsons
Cecil E R Parsons
Cecil Parsons
C E R Parsons
C Parsons
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Cecil Edgar Robertson Parsons DFC (b. 1918, 400419 Royal Australian Air Force).
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Parsons, CER
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DB: Ok. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Doreen Burge. The interviewee is Cecil Parsons. The interview is taking place at Mr Parson’s home in Ocean Grove, Victoria, Australia on August the 17th, 2016. Now, is it alright if I call you Boz?
CP: Certainly.
DB: Ok. Can you tell me what your birth date is?
CP: 12th of September 1918.
DB: Right. So you’re soon to turn ninety eight.
CP: That’s right.
DB: And where were you born?
CP: In Colac, Victoria.
DB: So not too far from here.
CP: No. No.
DB: And you grew up on a farm or —
CP: Yes. My father had a property near Beeac. Between Beeac and [Kirk?], and that’s where I was born, the youngest of a family of six.
DB: Right. So did you have a cattle farm or sheep?
CP: It was a mixed farm, yes, and we all had horses.
DB: Yes.
CP: All the kids had horses. Dad was a very great cattle man and all the children grew up on horses. I was the youngest of six.
DB: So I bet you could ride well.
CP: Yes. I could. I could ride. I remember riding behind dad in the buggy and I’d always been told that if I looked around I’d fall off. And I did [laughs]
DB: Proved the point to you.
CP: Yeah.
DB: And so can you tell me any more about your family background?
CP: Yes. My mother came from a property near Colac. She was born in the country. My father was born in Gippsland and was on a farm from a very early age, and became a farmer and a very good stock man. And he died when I was only seven so — but I was the youngest of a family of six. So we were very much a country family.
DB: Yes. So your father came from Gippsland.
CP: Came from Gippsland. Yeah.
DB: And moved to Colac.
CP: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
DB: When he married.
CP: He came to Colac because my mother’s family had property at Colac.
DB: Right.
CP: And he bought into that family. Into that family’s properties. Yeah.
DB: And so when he died did you all still stay on the farm?
CP: No. We moved in to Geelong.
DB: Right.
CP: Because I was, when he died, he died when I was about seven and I was the youngest of the family of six, and we moved into Colac and then to Geelong.
DB: Yes.
CP: As a family.
DB: So the farm, the farm was sold.
CP: Yes. Sold off.
DB: Yes. And so what — you did your schooling in Geelong.
CP: In Geelong. Yes.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yes.
DB: And your brothers and sisters were all there too.
CP: All educated in, in Geelong. Yeah.
DB: So you haven’t moved too far away.
CP: [laughs] No.
DB: That’s right. And so after your schooling what did you do?
CP: I went to, I went to school in Geelong and after schooling I went to university in Melbourne, and into residential college. Trinity College. And —
DB: So that’s at Melbourne University.
CP: Melbourne University.
DB: Yes.
CP: And at the end of those three years it was 1939 and the war came. And I went to the war.
DB: And so what made you decide to go, go to the war?
CP: It became almost automatic I think at that time. I thought of nothing else but going to the war when I finished my university degree in ’39 and went straight in to the air force.
DB: So you were twenty one then or about twenty one.
CP: Twenty one.
DB: Yes. And what made you go for the air force rather than the army or the navy?
CP: Family. Cousins. Friends. And also I was very much attached to flying. My cousins had been flying, and there wasn’t any other thought of doing anything else.
DB: So you really wanted to be a pilot.
CP: Yes.
DB: Right from the start.
CP: Yes.
DB: Yes. Now I’m just going to stop this for a minute to make sure we can hear you alright.
[recording paused]
DB: So Boz do you recall where you signed up? Was it in Melbourne or —?
CP: Indeed in Melbourne. I was, I was at university at the time.
DB: Yes.
CP: And so that was — signed up in 1940 I think.
DB: And so where was your training, most of your training held? Do you remember?
CP: Yes. Indeed. I went almost straight to Narromine and started flying on Tiger Moths.
DB: So is that in New South Wales?
CP: Yes.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yes. In central New South Wales. Near Forbes.
DB: Ah yes.
CP: Yeah. And that was the main training. This was early on in the war because it would have been in November of 1940.
DB: Yes. Yeah. And so what did your training while you were at Narromine — what did that involve?
CP: It was just an introduction to flying. We flew Tiger Moths.
DB: That would have been fun.
CP: Yeah. It was. It was something I had wanted to do and hadn’t been able to afford to do, and so I lapped it up, it was great fun.
DB: Yes.
CP: And great. I was the fourth course going through so it was early days and they were a wonderful batch of recruits at that time. You know, they had the pick of the, pick of the bunch really.
DB: So how, how had they selected the people to become pilots? Did you have to sit a test?
CP: Yeah. Quite a, quite an interesting interview, and people who were interested in flying particularly so I got first preference. And you needed to have a reasonably good background in education. Well, I’d been to university so I was well up in the education area.
DB: So what had you studied at university?
CP: I was studying science.
DB: So that would have helped.
CP: Oh yes, yes. Very much so.
DB: Yes. Yes. And so after you did the interview that was when you were selected to be trained as a —
CP: And interestingly enough at that time there wasn’t much of a wait.
DB: Oh right, yes.
CP: They were looking for people. And so we went straight into training.
DB: Right.
CP: It was marvellous. And I think I had to wait for about two or three months, that was all, before I was called up.
DB: Yes. And how did your, the rest of your family feel about what you were doing?
CP: Well I only had a mother. I was the youngest of a family of six and, dad had died when I was only about six.
DB: Yes.
CP: And so it was all up to mum really but —
DB: And how did she feel —?
CP: Well —
DB: About you becoming a pilot?
CP: I don’t know.
DB: She didn’t try and stop you.
CP: No. Certainly not.
DB: And did you have, did any of your —
CP: I’d been to university.
DB: Yes.
CP: And, you know I was pretty well on the —
DB: You were pretty independent.
CP: I was independent.
DB: Yes. And did any of your, did you have brothers who -
CP: Yes. I had an elder brother, five years older than me, he was a medico.
DB: Right.
CP: He did medicine and he went straight into the army.
DB: Yes.
CP: At that time. In 1940.
DB: So it was just the two of you who served then or did some of your other siblings —?
CP: No. I had four sisters, and they all went into something or other. Jan, the eldest was a secretary in Geelong and that’s where she stayed. She was a [Frank Guthrie?] secretary. And my brother was a doctor and he went into the services.
DB: Yes.
CP: He finished his medical degree. He was five years older than me.
DB: So did quite a few of your friends from that, from university sign up as well?
CP: Yeah, practically all of them.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. At that time in 1940 it was, everyone was joining the services.
DB: Yes. Yeah. So how long was your training at Narromine?
CP: Five months and then we went on to more advanced aircraft at another place.
DB: So do you remember where that — where you went after Narromine?
CP: I went to [pause] gee whizz I just can’t quite remember now.
DB: Was it in New South Wales as well?
CP: In New South Wales. Yes.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yes.
DB: And then did you then head overseas or?
CP: No [pause] Yes I did, I did. In November of 1940 I got on a ship and sailed to England. Yes. I did indeed.
DB: Do you remember which ship you went on?
CP: No. I couldn’t tell you.
DB: That would have been —
CP: The [unclear] sounds, you know, sounds familiar but I couldn’t tell you for sure.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: And there were a lot of you I guess.
CP: A lot. A lot. Yeah. 1940 it was.
DB: And what —
CP: We got to England, you know, at the height of the Battle of Britain. Yeah. A very interesting time really.
DB: I bet.
CP: To be in London.
DB: Yes. Yeah.
CP: Yeah. A different world.
DB: So what sort of experiences did you have when you arrived in London?
CP: Well we pitched in to the very height of the war really. The Battle of Britain had been and London was blacked out. It was an exciting time. It really was.
DB: Very different to being in Melbourne.
CP: [laughs] Absolutely. Yeah. It really was. England was, you know, really fighting a war.
DB: Yes. Yes. And so where, where were you sent to? When you —
CP: We went — I was sent up to Yorkshire and did my training up in Yorkshire. And it was interesting, an exciting to be, to be in England.
DB: Yes. Yeah.
CP: Yeah. Very exciting time. And it was new to me. I’d never been overseas before.
DB: No. Very exciting.
CP: You know. A very exciting time. Yeah.
DB: And what, so which base in Yorkshire were you sent to when you first arrived?
CP: Went to Linton on Ouse.
DB: Right.
CP: Which was a wartime station. Very famous station actually, Linton, and expanding like mad. We had bases all around us you know and Linton itself was a, had been a permanent air force station before the war and had permanent buildings.
DB: Right.
CP: But they were the only permanent buildings we were ever in. We were in Nissen huts most of the time.
DB: And it would have been cold.
CP: Yeah. Cold [laughs] yes.
DB: So you continued training when you got to Linton.
CP: Yeah.
DB: And what, what aircraft?
CP: And then we went on old Whitleys.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. Early on. And I went from Whitleys, very temporarily onto Halifaxes while I was a second pilot, and then I went back to Whitleys as a, as a captain in, at Linton. So I got to know that area very well. But flying during a winter in England in RAF Bomber Command on Whitleys, a very early, early aeroplane.
DB: And what, how did you find flying a Whitley compared to —?
CP: Oh it was, I thought it was marvellous. You know. First time in a big aeroplane. You know.
DB: Yes.
CP: Big twin engine aeroplane.
DB: So what crew did you have with you?
CP: A crew of five.
DB: Right. Yes. Yeah. And were they, were they all English? The crew you were with on the Whitleys?
CP: Mixed. Mixed. But mostly English. Yeah. Just, I had an Australian navigator.
DB: Yes.
CP: And the Australians were just sort of coming in.
DB: Yes. Yeah.
CP: But it was an exciting time, 1940.
DB: Yes.
CP: And ’41.
DB: And how were your crews formed at that time? Were you told who you were going to fly with or did you get to form your own crews?
CP: Well very limited amount. We went to a sort of a base and we were really just thrown together. You know, you didn’t have much choice.
DB: Right.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yes. So did you stay with that crew then for quite a long time?
CP: Over a year.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: So you, do you remember when it was you started your operations?
CP: Yes. About September/October 1940.
DB: Ok. Yeah.
CP: Early on.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. Really early on.
DB: So you did some training though for a while.
CP: Oh yes.
DB: And then —
CP: Yeah. I couldn’t tell you exactly but I would have thought probably my first operations were the beginning of ’41. We would be training up until that time.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. But they were, you know they were early operations in Bomber Command. 1941.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: So your first operations were on the Whitleys.
CP: Yes.
DB: Or did you do all your ops on —
CP: I did some as a second pilot on Halifaxes, because they were on the same squadron. On the same airfield. And Halifaxes were — I think somehow or other they must have been short of, short of second pilots I think and they tossed us in there to get air experience really. And then we went back to fly as captains on the Whitley.
DB: Right. Yes. So do you remember how many operations you did on each, each aircraft?
CP: Well I did five as a second pilot on Halifaxes to start with. And then I went back to Whitleys, and I did twenty eight operations over Europe in the Whitley.
DB: Right.
CP: Which is a tour.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. Anything between twenty five and thirty.
DB: Yeah.
CP: And then you got taken off.
DB: And did you have the same crew?
CP: Crew.
DB: Through most of that time?
CP: All the time.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
CP: Yeah.
DB: So tell me, tell me what it was like doing your first few operations.
CP: Well the first few operations I did were on Halifaxes as a second pilot. And in fact I didn’t even know where the controls were on the Halifax, you know. You just learned what to do for, you know, raise the undercarriage for the captain, you know. It was, you were really there for experience.
DB: Yes.
CP: To get operational experience.
DB: Yeah.
CP: Yeah. And it was, it was an exciting time. It really was. We were up in Yorkshire then. Lissett.
DB: And do you remember where you flew? Which? What the targets were?
CP: We did everything over Europe. It was a sort of acme of things was to be able to go to the big city. To go to bomb Berlin, you know. And I did that quite early on actually as a second pilot on the Halifax. That was the first trip.
DB: And what did you think?
CP: Oh it was just unbelievable. You wondered what was happening really, you know. You’re so [emphasis] inexperienced and it was such an extraordinary experience, you know. You can’t describe it really.
DB: No. And was the pilot you were flying with quite experienced at that time?
CP: Well I suppose they were very inexperienced. But they were experienced in our view at the time you know. They were a captain of a Halifax, you know. It was just unbelievable.
DB: Yes.
CP: You know.
DB: Yes.
CP: Wonderful aeroplanes.
DB: And did you have any difficult, particularly difficult operations? Or ones that stand out?
CP: I thought they all were [laughs]
DB: I bet they were.
CP: We, very early on I remember we landed at a base back in England that turned out to be what was known as a Q site. It was actually, it was a dummy airfield. We shouldn’t have landed there [laughs] I mean the war was very early on. It was really quite amazing that you survived. But —
DB: And so on —
CP: We landed on I was only the second pilot. I didn’t know, you know, what was happening but he landed on this and we only [pause] we hadn’t even touched down. We were just in the approach and all the lights went out. He had to land, he was, you know he’d committed to land you see.
DB: Yes.
CP: And it wasn’t on an airfield at all.
DB: So what did he —
CP: It was a dummy airfield, you know, but fortunately it was, it was serviceable you know.
DB: So you did managed to land there?
CP: We landed. Yeah. You know. The aircraft stopped you know. No lights. Nothing. Pitch dark. And the tail gunner called out, ‘Christ skipper. We’re in a cornfield.’ [laughs] We’d landed on this dummy airfield. We’d gone through a hedge and stopped and then I mean fortunately there was, it was open country.
DB: Yes.
CP: And we were — no damage done. Flew out to an airfield. At least taxied out to an airfield the next morning.
DB: So you were able to —
CP: Yes. Take off next morning. Yeah.
DB: There was an airfield nearby that you could get to —
CP: Yeah.
DB: And just take off again.
CP: Yeah.
DB: I wonder what the farmer thought who owned the cornfield? [laughs]
CP: [laughs] Yeah. Extraordinary.
DB: So that was, that was one of your early?
CP: That was very early on.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. I then became an experienced captain after that.
DB: And tell me about some of the ops that you did when you were a captain.
CP: Oh we did, we did everything I think. From flying to the big city. Which was going to Berlin. To going to places like on the French coast to St Nazaire. To the aircraft [pause] submarine pens.
DB: Yes.
CP: Used to do a lot of bombing of that area. Oh, you know. We had a very interesting time, you know, quite exciting.
DB: Yes. And did you, did you get to know many of the other people in the, on the squadron?
CP: Oh yes. Did. Yeah. You were living with them.
DB: Yes and what were the losses?
CP: At that time not too many Australians.
DB: No.
CP: And we had an Australian crew but mostly Englishmen. Mostly English people.
DB: And did you have any Canadians or New Zealanders?
CP: Yes. Yes. A lot.
DB: And which, which squadron were you with?
CP: I was with first of all I was with 35 Squadron which was an RAF Halifax squadron. But then I went back to Whitleys and went into 58 Squadron.
DB: Right.
CP: Again, it was again an English squadron. They were all English squadrons.
DB: Yeah.
CP: We were just Australians crews in English squadrons.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. It was early times. It was 1940, ‘41.
DB: So if you started your operations in ’41 do you remember when it was that you finished your twenty eight or thirty? What —
CP: I did them in a year. In about a year. Went through a winter. You were on standby often in the winter time. You can’t, can’t always fly, I mean the weather’s so bad.
DB: So you’d be all briefed and ready to go.
CP: That’s right. Yeah. Get cancelled. A lot of cancelled.
DB: And how did you find that when you’d be all ready to go and —
CP: Oh it’s, you get all keyed up to go you know, it’s a nuisance really. It’s a bit of a mind.
DB: You’d rather just get going.
CP: Get going. Yeah.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CP: You would be all keyed up to go and [pause] oh it’s a long time ago.
DB: And are there any other of your particular operations that stand out in your mind?
[pause]
CP: Oh yeah. Any, any operation which was going to take you to Berlin was something that stood out.
DB: Yes.
CP: Because it was the, it was the furthest to go in most cases and not the best place to go.
DB: No. Well defended.
CP: It was well defended.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CP: Yeah. You weren’t terribly keen about going to Berlin. [laughs]
DB: And what —
CP: I went to Berlin as a second pilot on a Halifax but then I went about three times when I was captain of a Whitley.
DB: So you had a few trips there.
CP: I had. Yeah. I’d have to have a look at my logbook.
DB: And were they flying as far as Milan and going to Italy at that time?
CP: Oh yes. Yeah. Interestingly enough I never went to Italy. I got briefed to go to Italy on a couple of occasions, and we always wanted to go to Italy because it wasn’t heavily defended.
DB: No. No.
CP: And you know it was much more fun to go there where there weren’t too many guns. To go to the Ruhr was like going to the bloody home of arsenal.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CP: That was the most heavily defended area in Germany of course.
DB: Yes.
CP: The Ruhr valley and then Berlin was not nasty [unclear] but it was much further. And you had a lot of flying over the north part of Germany to get to, and then you’d go. We used to fly almost on the coast, on the north coast of Germany. And then you’d fly almost as far as Stettin and then turn down to the right to go down to Berlin and it was a bloody long way.
DB: And defended all the way I guess?
CP: Well, no not too bad really because you could fly over the North Sea for a long time which was a great help. And that was alright, flying over the North Sea, unless you came across a gun boat, and you never knew where they were. And you’d get a bloody burst from that [laughs] yeah.
DB: Yes. That would —
CP: A ship.
DB: A bit of a shock coming out of the blackness wouldn’t it?
CP: That’s right.
DB: Yes. So the furthest target you went to would have been Berlin.
CP: It would. Yeah.
DB: Yes. Yeah. And the closer ones were the French. The submarine pens.
CP: Oh going the other way yeah. Yeah, yeah.
DB: Yes. So you did a few of those as well.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yes. So you had the same crew with you for that, for all your ops.
CP: Well except when I went as a second pilot and I was going with a totally different crew but when I started flying as a captain I had the same crew.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: And did they all survive the war too?
CP: Yes.
DB: They did.
CP: Yeah. Yeah. We were lucky.
DB: Yes. And so you completed your tour at thirty. Thirty operations?
CP: I only did twenty eight.
DB: Right. Yes.
CP: You were meant to do thirty.
DB: But they were happy for you to finish at that point.
CP: That’s right. It worked out that way.
DB: Yes. And what did you do then?
CP: I went instructing.
DB: So —
CP: That was the normal thing.
DB: Yes.
CP: But I must have come back to Australia, you see. When did I come back? I came back. We were all itching to get back as soon as the Japanese came in you see, my first lot of flying was well before the end of 1941. You see I was flying in 1940.
DB: Yes.
CP: In England.
DB: Yes.
CP: And, you see, the Japs didn’t come in until December ’41. So, and none of us came back to Australia until ’42.
DB: And you were pretty keen.
CP: I’d been very early. Very early on. I was the fourth course to go through.
DB: Yes. That’s early. And [pause] now what was I going to ask about? Oh where did you do your instructing?
CP: In England?
DB: Yes. When you went on to instructing after your ops.
CP: The Garden of Eden. The Vale of Evesham. Down south of Birmingham.
DB: Right.
CP: Oh what a beautiful country. The Cotswolds.
DB: Oh beautiful.
CP: I hadn’t realised what a beautiful part of England.
DB: Yes.
CP: I was there for a year instructing. Oh glorious Berkshire there to Somerset.
DB: So you enjoyed your leave time when you were there.
CP: Lovely.
DB: Yes.
CP: England is a most beautiful place.
DB: It is very beautiful. And getting to see, see it from the air must be very special.
CP: Oh it’s lovely, it’s a beautiful country.
DB: And how did you find instructing after having been flying for so long?
CP: Oh I enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: So you were instructing different nationalities. Were there Australians and —?
CP: New Zealanders.
DB: New Zealanders. Canadians. Yeah. Lovely. A lovely life. Beautiful. You know. Interesting people. Interesting. So they were pretty well educated you see. That’s what the beauty of it was.
CP: So they were pretty well trained by the time they got to you.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good.
CP: So at that time had the because I know my dad was trained in the Empire Air Training Scheme in Canada.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
CP: Of course I did that.
DB: Oh you did that too?
CP: Yep.
DB: So did you go from Australia to Canada did you? Before you went to England?
CP: Yeah.
DB: Right.
CP: Glorious. I hadn’t realised what a wonderful time we had. We went to [pause] I was in Calgary for the whole of one winter.
DB: It would have been cold.
CP: Cold. But skiing up in the mountains. What a beautiful country.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yes.
DB: So you did a lot of your initial pilot training in Canada.
CP: I did.
DB: As part of the Empire Air Training Scheme.
CP: Went from Tiger Moths in Narromine to Ansons in Calgary.
DB: Right. Yes.
CP: You know. What a wonderful life you know. It was a wonderful time.
DB: So you —
CP: And you know, great companions.
DB: Yeah.
CP: Doing something different, you know. Flying. You couldn’t get anything better for a young man. I’d just finished university, you know, so I was more mature than most of them and you know and just, it was wonderful.
DB: And so you —
CP: The beginning of the war.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CP: 1940.
DB: And you were with a big — big group in Canada training.
CP: Yes, yeah.
DB: Yes. Yeah.
CP: But I think we were the third, third lot to go through.
DB: Right.
CP: You know. So it was all new. And the courses were pretty well picked, you know. The cream of the lot we were really. We were marvellous, had a marvellous time.
DB: And did you have did you feel the instructing was good there?
CP: Excellent, excellent. Some of them were almost professional instructors, you know. Some of them were American. There were senior Canadian pilots, you know. We got the best of the lot.
DB: Yes.
CP: A wonderful time. And ah, [pause] for a young Australian. I was just, I’d just finished university really.
DB: But you were ready for some adventure.
CP: Yeah. Absolutely. You know.
DB: Yes. Yeah.
CP: You know. I wasn’t young. I was twenty one, twenty two, twenty three.
DB: Yes. There were some younger than that weren’t there?
CP: Oh yes. A lot.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. So did you, did some of the people you trained with in Canada go on to the same squadron as you? Did you keep some?
CP: Yeah. Not a lot but you know, quite a few went through the procedure, you know. I think I had one or two that were on [pause] in my crew that had come right through. Yeah.
DB: So did most of the people you trained with survive the war?
CP: I couldn’t tell you.
DB: No. Did you —
CP: I don’t know. You see, because wars sort of go on don’t they? I came back and went into the war in the Pacific.
DB: Right.
CP: You see.
DB: Yes.
CP: I went through a tour of operations in Europe, and then I came back to Australia just after the Japs came in at the end of ’41. And started all over again.
DB: So where were you based then? Were you based somewhere in Australia or — ?
CP: Came down to Darwin.
DB: Right. Yes. That would have been very different flying.
CP: [laughs] quite a difference.
DB: Yes.
CP: Quite a difference.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: So just getting back to England and Bomber Command your son, Bill mentioned that you were awarded the DFC.
CP: Yes.
DB: Can you tell me how? How that came about?
CP: No. Well [pause] If you stayed long enough you you were bound to get a DFC [laughs]
DB: Oh I’m sure that’s not quite the case.
CP: It almost is but you know. Right you see, I suppose I’d done a tour in England and I had done a bit of flying when I came back to Australia, and so it wasn’t a unique thing for me to be given an award. I became a quite senior pilot very early on.
DB: Yes.
CP: On Australia.
DB: So your DFC was awarded when you were in the Pacific.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yes. Yeah. So you’d done quite a bit of flying by that time.
CP: I’d done a tour of operations in Europe.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: And so what, what was the actual flight that resulted in the DFC?
CP: No. In the course of time really. Nothing particular. Just having stayed the distance.
DB: Right. Yes. And you were mentioned in dispatches a couple of times too.
CP: I was. That was pretty automatic too. Provided you stayed alive. [laughs]
DB: So that was during the Pacific flying time or was that in Bomber Command?
CP: No, that was England.
DB: Right. So do you remember?
CP: No.
DB: What that, what that flight was?
CP: I honestly don’t know.
DB: No.
CP: No.
DB: So that was one of your trips over Europe though.
CP: Well, probably not a particular one. Probably having survived several I think.
DB: Yes. So were you commissioned? You were commissioned when you were still in Canada at the end of your —?
CP: No.
DB: No.
CP: I wasn’t commissioned until I’d finished a tour in England.
DB: Right.
CP: I did my first tour as a sergeant.
DB: Yes. Yeah. And then you became a flight lieutenant, is that right? At the, at the end?
CP: I was commissioned when I was in the RAF.
DB: Yeah.
CP: And I just progressed to it through the stages.
DB: Yes. So tell me the things that really stand out in your mind from your time in England. What are the sort of important memories for you of that time?
CP: I think my important memories first of all was when I was seconded to [pause] as a second pilot to 35 Squadron which was a RAF Halifax squadron as a second pilot. And I was flying with some very — I was flying with the squadron commander. Quite a senior RAF wing commander, and it was, he was in command of 35 Squadron in Yorkshire and I was sent up there as a second pilot. He was the first really professional RAF man I flew with. He was just a marvellous man. He, he was a squadron commander and he did more flying, I think, than any one else in the squadron.
DB: Do you remember his name?
CP: Yes. Robinson.
DB: Right. Robinson, yeah. And so you did your —
CP: I, you know, I worshipped him. I thought he was a marvellous bloke.
DB: So you must have been very privileged. Felt very privileged to fly with him.
CP: Well I was very privileged to fly with him as second pilot.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yes. And he would have —
CP: Wonderful man.
DB: Taught you a lot I guess.
CP: Great bloke.
DB: So do you recall where you went on that flight with him?
CP: Yes. We went to Berlin. My first flight as a second pilot was with Wing Commander Robinson. He was the most unflappable bloke I’ve seen. Wonderful example.
DB: Yes. And that would have given you a great sense of security to go with him.
CP: Marvellous. Yeah. Yeah. It was great. I was very privileged. Yeah, lovely man.
DB: So that’s probably one of your most special memories.
CP: Ah, you know. Stands out in my mind.
DB: Yes.
CP: Great.
DB: Yes. And are there any others that stand out of your operations?
CP: I met some very good Australians. I came back to Australia you see. I did a tour of operations in Europe because I was over there, I was very early on. I was the third or fourth course to go through the Empire Air Training Scheme.
DB: Yes.
CP: So I was in England very early, and I came back to Australia you see, because the Japs didn’t come in ‘till, you know, we thought the war was nearly over, end of ’41, beginning of ‘42 and I’d been over there since 1940.
DB: And you’d done a year of instructing then after your ops.
CP: I did. That’s it. And then came back. To Australia.
DB: And then you were able to come back. Yes. So you came back by ship then. Yes. And there was quite a group of you coming back to continue on.
CP: Yes. Yes. Yeah. In Australia. Yes.
DB: And were —
CP: The war didn’t start out here until the end of ‘41 beginning of ‘42 and I’d been in since 1940.
DB: Yes. So you were ready to come back.
CP: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Yes. And did you keep in contact with any of the people you flew with in England?
CP: No. Not really.
DB: No. So not any of your crew, your own crew.
CP: Yes. I left them behind. Because they hadn’t, they hadn’t done. My navigator I finished up with in England was a bloke called Wilf Stone, an old Scotch College boy, but he stayed behind. I got sent back to Australia you see.
DB: So he was still flying.
CP: He was still flying in England. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And did he survive the war?
CP: I think so. I think so. Yeah. Wilf Stones. Funny how I forget what happened to him. He went flying with somebody else, I know. A good navigator.
DB: And what about the rest of your crew that you flew with. Were they —
CP: In England?
DB: Yes.
CP: They were all Englishmen.
DB: Right.
CP: Yeah. Yeah. They were all Englishman.
DB: And did they go on and continue with other —?
CP: Yeah. You lose track.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And they —
CP: I came back to Australia you see. When did I come back? End of ’42. Yeah.
DB: And how was it coming home?
CP: Oh it was different world. You know.
DB: Yes.
CP: There hadn’t been a war out here when I left but there was very much a war when I came back.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
CP: Yeah.
DB: And did you come back to Melbourne before you were sent to Darwin?
CP: Yeah.
DB: So —
CP: Well, I had a month’s leave I think.
DB: Yes. I bet your mother —
CP: I’d been away for a long time.
DB: Yes. Your mother would have been pleased to see you.
CP: Yeah [laughs] yeah.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. All the family were in the services then. My brother was a doctor. He was five years older than me but he was up in New Guinea.
DB: Yeah. And so how much longer were you in the RAAF then when you went and fought from, flew from Darwin? And so how long —
CP: I stayed in the RAAF after the war.
DB: So you were a career pilot for a while then, yes. So is that what you continued doing for very long?
CP: Well I thought I was going to stay there forever. But I then went. Left and I went flying commercially.
DB: Oh did you? Yes.
CP: I went flying up in Alice Springs. Bush airline. Some of the best flying I ever had I think. That was after the war.
DB: So how long did —
CP: I would have, I would have stayed on flying I think but I was getting married then. The family didn’t want a kid when flying. Yeah.
DB: Did you miss it?
CP: Yeah. I did.
DB: Yes. So —
CP: I went farming, it nearly killed me. I loved flying.
DB: So that nearly — that nearly killed you more than flying in the war did.
CP: I think so [laughs]
DB: Where were you farming then? Were you down this way again?
CP: On York Peninsula.
DB: Oh. In South Australia.
CP: That’s where my wife came from.
DB: Right. Yes. So was that cropping farming?
CP: Yes. Yes.
DB: Yeah.
CP: Yeah. I did that for two years. Then I went school teaching.
DB: And was that in South Australia as well?
CP: No.
DB: No. You came back here.
CP: Came back and I bought a farm out here. Just sort of got or had [unclear] my son’s.
DB: Yes. So that’s close by here is it? Yes. Yeah.
CP: That’s where I came from you see. We came from Geelong originally.
DB: Yes. And —
CP: I went school lteaching.. That became my profession.
DB: So did you teach primary school or secondary?
CP: Secondary.
DB: School. So what subjects did you teach?
CP: Fundamentally agg science but I taught physics and chemistry up to leaving level. Up to you know matric level. And I’d done a university degree before the war.
DB: Yes. Yeah. And so did your, do you think your experiences in the war contributed to your teaching later?
CP: Oh certainly, certainly. Certainly contributed to my, my positions as a house master and what not. Senior positions. Because they were better for you. Very much. Understanding people better I think.
DB: Yes. And you would have —
CP: I was quite mature really when I was teaching. I’d been through the war.
DB: And got, got to know many, many different people I think.
CP: Absolutely. Yeah.
DB: Which would be very helpful with teaching wouldn’t it? Yes. And did you do any more flying?
CP: I continued to fly. I continued to fly. See I went flying professionally after the war for a while. I would have gone on flying forever I think but family didn’t want to.
DB: So did you keep it up as a hobby at all?
CP: Yeah. I still fly.
DB: I saw something on YouTube that your son Bill sent me where you went flying. Was it for your ninetieth birthday?
CP: [laughs] [unclear]
DB: And there’s a film of you climbing up into just a two seater plane.
CP: Yeah.
DB: And looping the loop and all sorts of things.
CP: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
CP: That was recent. Victor Harbour.
DB: Right. Yes. And what —
CP: I still love flying.
DB: Yes.
CP: It gets in your blood. But I had some marvellous flying in Alice Springs. That was some of the best flying I ever did I think. In old aeroplanes and carrying the mail all over the territory. That was wonderful fun.
DB: That would have been very different to flying over England and —
CP: That’s right.
DB: Over Europe.
CP: Totally different.
DB: That huge expanse of country.
CP: Old planes too.
DB: So what sort of planes did you fly in Alice Springs?
CP: Flew a Dragon, DH Dragon twin engine. Two light twins. Great aeroplane. A dragon and a dragonfly. A Dragonfly was a more modern one. Had self-starters.
DB: You didn’t have to get out.
CP: [laughs] No.
DB: Crank the engine.
CP: No.
DB: And did you have crew with you at all on those?
CP: Mail plane?
DB: Yes.
CP: No. No. No. But we often had passengers.
DB: Yes.
CP: But no you were on your own. Lovely.
DB: So what would you say your main memories are of your time flying in England with, with Bomber Command?
CP: In England? In England.
DB: Yes.
CP: [pause] It was two very different sorts of flying because some of the flying was just in England either instructing or in just flying in England. Was nothing to worry about. Or flying from England over Europe which was very tense. Yeah. So some of the flying over England was beautiful.
DB: Yes.
CP: Lovely. Glorious.
DB: Yes. And how did you feel of that tension that you referred to in flying over Europe? How do you think that affected you?
CP: I think I’m, I think I’m a very fortunate person that I don’t get very tight. I’m able to relax pretty well. And I’ve been in some very difficult situations but I’m very fortunate not to get too uptight about it.
DB: Yes.
CP: But some of the flying over England — England is the most beautiful country. It really is the most beautiful place. But when you divorce it from the flying at, from war flying it’s a lovely place.
DB: Yes. And did you enjoy your, your leave times when you were in England?
CP: I did. I did. I did. It was all new to me but I, you know I had good friends to visit.
DB: Yes.
CP: And relations to visit, you know. And it felt like home, you know.
DB: Yes.
CP: England is the most beautiful place.
DB: Yes.
CP: Absolutely beautiful.
DB: So did one or either of your parents have family in England?
CP: Both did [pause] but my mother’s family more so I think although they were fundamentally Australian. Mum was born in Australia and was brought up in the country. Near Colac. And dad was brought up in Australia, a country man from Gippsland. And — but both with strong English connections.
DB: Yes.
CP: So we had a lots of relatives over there. England is such a beautiful country.
DB: It certainly is.
CP: Compared to the vastness of Australia. But I’ve been fortunate to know Australia. Because I’ve been based as an airline pilot in Alice Springs. You’d hardly call it an airline pilot. A bush pilot. [laughs]
DB: Well that would have been great flying experience to do that.
CP: Wonderful. Real. I’ve had a wonderful flying career.
DB: Yes.
CP: You know. Lovely.
DB: Yes. So you’ve had very contrasting flying experience haven’t you?
CP: Absolutely. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Because it would be very hard to compare flying over outback Australia with flying over Europe during the war.
CP: Yeah. England particularly. England. What a beautiful country.
DB: And have you been back there?
CP: Yes I have. Yeah. Yes.
DB: Yes.
CP: Yeah. We’ve been back quite recently.
DB: And did you go back and visit your old squadron when you went back. Was it still there?
CP: No.
DB: No.
CP: I went back to Stratford. I was training in Stratford in the Vale of Evesham. What a glorious country.
DB: Beautiful.
CP: Absolutely beautiful. Yeah.
DB: Yes. And so you’ve not had much contact with your, your compatriots from that time since the war.
CP: No. No.
DB: No.
CP: Not at all. No. Not at all. England. England is just the most. It’s a garden.
DB: Yes it is.
CP: Do you know it well?
DB: I’ve been a few times. Yes. Yeah. I went with my father and he took me to his old squadron in — he was in Elsham Wolds.
CP: Oh yes.
DB: And there were a few old buildings left in 1995 when I went there with him. So —
CP: Elsham Wolds.
DB: Yes. He thought it was a beautiful place too. He loved it. He had a lot of visits back there as well. Yes.
CP: Beautiful country.
DB: Yes.
CP: Glorious country.
DB: So before we finish I suppose I should just ask if there is sort of one most important or special memory that you have of Bomber Command. Or your [pause] what’s your overall feeling of what Bomber Command was like for you?
CP: Well, I was, I was there very early on compared to what most of them went through later on. It was much more sort of an individualistic sort of operation when I was there. And I was young. I was young. I was enjoying flying. It was a new adventure for me and I just had the most glorious time in England. Glorious time. I met some lovely people and lovely families. And the war was really on then in 1940/41 and London was so different, you know. It was really a city under siege in 1941.
DB: Yes.
CP: So I feel very fortunate to have had the experience.
DB: Yes.
CP: Lovely.
DB: I’ll turn this off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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AParsonsCER160817, PParsonsCER1601
Title
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Interview with Cecil Parsons
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:02:15 audio recording
Creator
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Doreen Burge
Date
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2016-08-17
Description
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Cecil Parsons was born in 1918 in Victoria, Australia. He volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force in 1939 and trained as a pilot in New South Wales and Canada as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme before being posted to England in 1940. He was stationed at RAF Linton on Ouse, flying Whitleys with 58 Squadron and as second pilot on Halifaxes with 35 Squadron. He completed a tour of operations and describes flying operations over Europe, including Berlin and recalls an early occasion when his plane accidentally landed at a dummy airfield. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross before he returned to Australia in 1942 and served as an instructor with the RAAF. He later worked as a commercial pilot and then a schoolteacher.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Canada
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
New South Wales--Orana Region
Victoria--Geelong
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
Contributor
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Carolyn Emery
35 Squadron
58 Squadron
Anson
decoy site
Distinguished Flying Cross
Halifax
Nissen hut
RAF Linton on Ouse
Tiger Moth
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1178/11749/AVanRielJF150825.2.mp3
cffc6c8e3da6c0812386bffac7a93acf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Van Riel, Coby
J F Van Riel
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Coby Van Riel (b. 1932), a memoir and her brothers war diary. She was a recipient of the Operation Manna food drops.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
VanRiel, JF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on the behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock. The interviewee is Mrs Coby Van Riel. The interview is taking place at her home at Bracebridge Heath on the 25th of August 2015. So, Coby if you can just perhaps tell me a bit about where, when and where you were born.
CVR: Yes. I was born in the Hague in Holland on the 6th of August 1932. And my brother was born two and a half years before. And my parents were not that young because my father had been married before and he lost his wife from tuberculosis and his little baby as well, died as well. And after that, he knew my mother because she was the sister of my father’s, sorry the sister, yeah of my father’s brother. I say difficult. Two families. Two brothers and two sisters. Yeah. So my mother knew him already and then they got to know each other better and they married at a later age. So, when I was born my mother was already forty-one.
MC: Oh goodness.
CVR: Yeah. So, I went to a school. It was the, for little toddlers first in a place called Scheveningen, near the Hague. A fishing harbour. And after that I went to the primary school. Also in that area. And then I, so we, we still lived close to Scheveningen. You know, on the edge of the Hague in the Brederodestraat and my mum, my mother had a chemist shop. Although in Holland they call it drogist. And that means it is a shop. There they can sell everything like in a chemist’s shop except drugs. No prescriptions from doctors and all that. And then I went to the Grammar School. Also, still in the area and I have to think about the —
MC: Did you enjoy the schooling? Can you remember much about your schooldays?
CVR: Yeah. I can remember more in detail but I don’t know if you want to know all about that. But anyway, so I have to think.
MC: What did your father do?
CVR: My father was, worked for a baker’s delivery shop. The co-op. Actually, the co-op it was called in Holland. And not Co-op but Volharding which I think was the same company and he used to deliver bread. And he did lots to earn a little bit more money to keep us going because when my mother had the chemist shop and towards the wartime in 1939 there was a critical time, you know. In ’39. And can you call it malaise or [pause] very difficult to keep going, you know. People used to go to other shops if they got something for a half a cent cheaper than in my mother’s shop.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: So it was very hard for them.
MC: Was it unusual for both parents to work in those days? Because, I mean, your father worked at a bakers but your mother ran the chemist shop.
CVR: Yeah. My father had a hard job and because he always helped his brother, my uncle, in the middle of the Hague — he had a café restaurant and he used to work there in the evening to help out, you know. And he wouldn’t come home before 1 o’clock sometimes. And sometimes he used to earn a little bit more money. He used to work in the night in the bakery shop and where the bread was baked and had to get it out of the ovens and all that. And he did a newspaper round. He had a very very hard life doing wallpaper for people, you know. And just to keep my brother and I going because the time was so expensive then. And then the war broke out.
MC: So the time before the war it was, it wasn’t easy.
CVR: No. It was a very hard time and at one point it was so bad and I can remember that that we couldn’t, we didn’t have any heating. We didn’t have enough money. Or my parents didn’t have enough money for the heating and my brother and I would sit at a table with our coats on in the wintertime and our hat on to keep warm and then sent to bed early. And then the baker around the corner took pity on us and I can remember he came with buckets full of pieces of coal to keep the stove going, you know. Yeah. That was really great. But yeah then the war broke out.
MC: So how old were you when the war broke out? So, you would be seven? Seven or eight.
CVR: Yes.
MC: Seven.
CVR: Yes. My birthday was in August and I would have been eight in August but the war broke out in May of course. You know. The 10th of May. And I remember that very vividly and that’s where my story starts you know.
MC: Ah yeah. But yeah, but go back.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Because obviously it was September ’39. It was in ’39 that Britain was at war.
CVR: Yes.
MC: But Holland.
CVR: Was on the 10th of May.
MC: 10th of May.
CVR: Yeah. In 1940.
MC: Can you remember, what, did things change? What was it like at the time? Can you remember?
CVR: In 1940. Yes. The start of it which I have written about was. That in the morning there was an enormous commotion and we heard the aeroplanes coming over of the Germans. And you know everybody ran outside to the harbour because the parachutists, the German parachutists came down and there was a lot of bombing going on as well. So I, as a little girl, you know, I thought I want to see that as well. My parents were too busy. And I quickly, I put something on and my apron and I forgot to put a skirt on. I just ran to [laughs] And I had, as a child I had no idea what that was. Staring at these aeroplanes and people dropping from the aeroplanes on parachutes. But the bombing was going on and I ran back home. And then that was really terrible because people who were injured they ran to the first chemist, drogist shop. Which was my mother’s. There was nothing else. And my mother started to help the injured. But in the end then badly injured people came in. She couldn’t do it any more. She didn’t know how to do it. So I don’t know what she did. Referred people to other places and I think she closed the door. She had to. But I can remember that. It was awful. Really awful.
MC: So when did you first come across any occupying troops?
CVR: Actually, that same day, you know. We were astonished to see the Germans in uniform coming. And they occupied the whole area there. Just us on the border. There was one street to the border of the Hague and Scheveningen and they occupied the whole area. Germans coming in and buying stuff in the shop. And we were just gobsmacked. But that lasted till the beginning 1943 I think. I wrote about it. When they wanted all the people living there, all of them, out. We just were told you have to leave within so many hours. So my mum had to get rid of all the stuff in the shop. I don’t know how she did it. She had some stuff there. I was still going to school from ’40 to ’43 in that area. I got an ausweis, you know. A permit to go to the school but in the meantime my aunt and uncle who had a café restaurant offered us a place because we were chased out. And they said, ‘Well, the only thing we can offer you is go into our cellars below the restaurant café.’ You know. So, my mum and my dad did that and I remember the last time I went to school in the occupied area there was a huge commotion and bombing going on and at some points. And I nearly was too, not far from the school and I was on my little scooter — you know when you move it, one foot on the step. And that was quite a distance from where we were living then, you know with my uncle and aunt. But then I got close and I got so frightened all of a sudden because there was all people were fleeing and going away. So I turned around and just went back. Luckily. I don’t know what would have been going on then after that.
MC: Do you know why they moved you out?
CVR: Because they, the Germans were afraid that from then on the English would come over with their armies and planes and whatever to occupy. Chase the Germans out of Holland and they had put already those things on the beach. I don’t know what you call them.
MC: Ah yes.
CVR: Yeah. And they were laying mines in the sea there. We were not allowed on the beach at all beforehand already. So we were just chased out. All of us who were living there. And we lived in the cellar. And my aunt and uncle said well don’t worry because it’s only maybe for a couple of months and the war will be over [laughs] In ’43? We lived there ‘til after the liberation.
MC: You lived there all that time.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did, I mean were you, were there any evidence of any rebellion, you know?
CVR: No. Not in that area. I know there was the, what do you call that?
MC: The Resistance.
CVR: The Resistance was there.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You know. I wrote about that as well. And I didn’t know that at some point there were certain newspapers going around and also —
MC: Illegal newspapers.
CVR: Yeah. Trouw and Parool I think it was called. And there were people around us who had to take messages, important messages to certain people. And there was one day, it was such a strange day I think that there was nobody who dared to go out with messages and they thought, ‘Hold on. The children. They won’t suspect children.’ And I was asked to take a very important message to a few streets further on. And they said, ‘We’ll put it in your shoe, under your sole, you don’t say anything. You go there. You do as if you go to see a friend. You have to go to that and that address and you deliver that message and don’t speak to anybody. Don’t. Do ignore the German soldiers if you meet them.’ And I did that, you know. So God knows what kind of message that was. Yeah. But we, we noticed quite a few things. Around the corner was a shop and there was, the owner was a Jew. A very nice gentleman. Really nice. And one day there were razzias. You know razzias? A razzia is when suddenly, unexpectedly Germans came along the houses and picked up people. At one point it was boys and men from the age of sixteen I think till whatever. Over forty. They were picked up and sent off.
MC: Forced labour.
CVR: Forced labour. So, one day we thought what’s happening around the corner? This lovely Jewish gentleman was got out of his house. I remember that. Seeing him. He was taken away by the Germans and gone. Never heard of him before.
MC: Because your brother at that time wasn’t old enough for forced labour was he?
CVR: My brother was two and a half years older. Then in ’43 —
MC: So, you would have been ten. No, he wouldn’t.
CVR: Then I must have been —
MC: He would have been about fourteen.
CVR: About ten to twelve. About twelve. Thirteen yeah. So. Yeah.
MC: So, he wasn’t able, he didn’t, he got away with forced labour because —
CVR: No. No.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: But at one point there was another razzia, you know and we were having a party in the café restaurant. We always had parties with the family and so all the old blinds were down of course. You had to have blinds and things. So, we were having this party and then suddenly, that was in the evening, there was a knock on the door of the restaurant and my uncle said, ‘Quick, shhh all down in the cellar. All of you.’ And so we were part of some members and I remember that, lying on the staircase listening what was going on. And later I heard from my uncle when it was safe to come out. He, he hid the son of my neighbour, a cousin of mine. Yeah, the two. Because my brother was not old enough. They got in the top of a big cupboard. On the shelf. There was space but just. They were sitting there. But my uncle had to give up because the dog was there, Sunny. Sunny the dog and he started to bark like anything in front of the cupboard. So we had, the boys had to come out and they were hidden somewhere else. I don’t know. In our cellar or whatever. So the door was closed and we heard my uncle talk to the German soldiers and later he said when it was okay to come out for us and they left. He said, ‘You can come out.’ We continued the party but silent. Silently. And we did but I heard that he had given the German soldiers loads of drinks he still had. Alcoholic drinks. Beer and God knows what so they were really cheerful and in the end they thought, ‘Oh, there is nothing going on here. We’ll leave.’ That was our luck.[laughs]
MC: That sounds very good, that does. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So, what about your parents still managed to do their jobs and their business? Run their business.
CVR: My, my mum was just housewife then.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: She had lost her shop so she looked after us, after us and helped in, as long as the café restaurant was going but in the end there was no food anymore but she helped there and polished the floors. And my father still delivered bread in that area, and it was with a little cart which they did you know at that time. But then in the Hunger Winter it became so bad. And before there was hardly any bread. We had coupons. I can show you later. You know, I still have coupons and, but there was nothing hardly left and then people started to plunder?, is that right, my father’s cart and it was really dangerous. He couldn’t prevent them and there was a lot of things going on. Fights and all that. So he stopped delivering bread and it was not worth anymore because we had only a small loaf for the whole week. I think for a person or whatever.
MC: So how did you survive? Money and things like that.
CVR: Well, money wise I don’t know how that worked. I think my father still earned something, you know.
MC: Oh.
CVR: And my uncle as well in the café. And they offered money for, oh a guilder for one potato. Nobody had that. But what was your question again about that? Oh yeah. The food. The food of course. So they had assistance from the IKB. I K B. That was an interkerkelijk — interchurch organization, a bureau who, and asked the children of us and that was December ’44. After ’45 then. Beginning ’45 to let the children come over to certain areas and then we were examined by doctors and divided into three groups — A, B and C. And I think A was the worse, B medium and C was the children who were still alright. And my brother and I were examined and we were put in the worst group — A. And then they said, ‘You can come,’ I think it was twice a week here, ‘And you will get, you have to get your little saucepan, not a big, a little saucepan and you will have some stew or porridge.’ And we were allowed to take it home but what, what’s happened at home because we were living with then, I think thirteen people together in my uncle’s house.
MC: So, you were still in the cellar at that point.
CVR: In the daytime we were in the cellar. In the daytime there was another uncle who died from starvation. And then neighbours came down and we were in the daytime with thirteen people, you know. But they do, when I and my brother came back with a little saucepan we all ate of it and these church people got to know that. They said, ‘Ah. No way they go home with their food. They have to eat in the place itself.’ Yeah. So, you know I’ve still a photo of it in a little booklet I got from Holland, “The Hunger Winter,” and there are photos in there. And also, my brother and I would go to the centres. There you could go and queue up and they would be coming, there were long queues and food would come from another place by boat from Delft to the Hague. And then brought to the, to these streets where you had to queue up. And you had your coupons and you would get from the big, we call them gamellen big metal [pause] yeah, containers where the food was in there. And they would ladle out, one it was either stew or soup but nothing much in it, in your saucepan and you would go home. But some days when there were raids and bombing going on the food wouldn’t turn up. You had to go home. The next day you could come and the food in the summer would go off but you still ate it, you know. So anyway, those things helped a little bit. And a kind butcher asked my mother if my brother and I could come over on a Saturday. He would try to do as much as possible to cook something from where he got it from, from bones. Cook a little bit of soup and veg and with other children we sat there but our stomachs were not used to it anymore. Because meanwhile we ate tulip bulbs, nettles, grass, fodder from the kettle. What was the [pause] sugar beet. That was all we tried to eat. So when we sat in the butcher’s shop around a table, all as small children and it’s not a very nice story but some children they couldn’t [pause] they couldn’t keep it in.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Later they started eating the same again, you know. It was horrible. Absolutely horrible. But we had fights at some points when the trailers came in with all these containers. The gamellen the metal containers. And you could go there as well, you know, to get something. But my brother and I and other people, young, all gangs. We called ourselves gangs climbed on the trailers because all the food had been given out. We climbed on it and we would lick, lick from these gamellen and I have a photo in that booklet as well. I haven’t got my own photos because we didn’t have cameras. So how they got hold of it in the booklet. And then we started to fight. You know. We suddenly divided into gangs and they started throwing stones from both sides. The children. And then I remember, I remember that so much and I felt horrible. I thought stones. Them throwing stones at us and we all try to lick the things. I thought forget it and I never went back anymore.
MC: No.
CVR: I hated it. I never did it anymore.
MC: Yeah, it was —
CVR: So that’s how it got around and in the end you know then in April when the RAF came over with the food and the Germans had not allowed them to do it. They asked permission. They said no way because they wanted to starve the whole west out. No. Nothing was allowed to come to us. Not even in Holland from the east where it was a bit better. They said, ‘No. You’ve got on strike with a Resistance group,’ you know. ‘You blocked our trains for ammunition and stuff for the war to come out.’ He said, ‘Right,’ they said, ‘Right. That’s your punishment. The whole west where the strike started you won’t have any food any more. You sort yourself out.’ And then in Holland the Resistance group or the head of the Resistance group got in contact with London. With Queen Wilhelmina and Churchill and they said, ‘You have to stop to try to liberate now. You have to feed us because already twenty thousand people in the west died from starvation and if you don’t do that there will be hundreds maybe two or three hundred thousand people dying very soon.’ And that helped. Wilhelmina and Churchill said, ‘Right. Liberation has to stop. First the people.’ That was our luck. You know. And then the RAF came over and I’ll never forget it. And they didn’t yet know because the Germans had forbidden them to come over with food. But it was towards the end of the war. So, they had to lose their face then you know. And the RAF still didn’t know whether they would be shot at.
MC: The early ones, yeah.
CVR: Nothing happened.
MC: Yeah. Eventually they, they had a truce.
CVR: Yeah. And then I stood outside. I ran outside and everybody ran outside and we looked up and we saw those aeroplanes coming. I just get goose pimples. In the distance we saw the aeroplanes coming over and drop food parcels in certain areas. And from there on we got food. And from the Swedish Red Cross. I’ll never forget that. We got Swedish bread. I first thought, as a child the bread came rolling down now. They had dropped huge bags of flour. They were brought to the bakeries and they baked the bread. And that was the first time I got a piece of bread from, again from Sweden. And the parcels, we had to get them from the RAF. It was divided, you know. Some burst on the, on the ground as well, bitterly but what was there that was divided. Everybody could come in. I don’t know how they did it. With coupons or something. And you got your parcel with a strong warning not to eat straight away all of it. Just little portions because our stomachs were not used to it. But it was high time. You know, I nearly lost my mother and father and that was told on the 21st of April to all the people in the marquee. The Dutch attaché introduced me. He had asked me a little bit. I’d never met him. He had it all in his computer and he introduced me to all the people in the marquee and he talked about it. And I suddenly felt, felt two tears down my face. I thought, oh no. I don’t want to do that.
MC: This was in April of this year.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. The Operation Manna commemorations.
CVR: I still have it on the television. You know. I kept it but it’s a pity I don’t have more solid things.
MC: Yeah. So, when the food was dropped were the Germans still around? Was the —
CVR: Yes. They were.
MC: Were they, did they get any of the food?
CVR: No. No. And that, that helped us over because it was in April and on the 5th of May for us that was the end of the war.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: And then, but it took a long time for people and there were still loads of people who died still, you know because they were too far down.
MC: To survive. Yeah.
CVR: So one, one uncle died. And I heard, in the cellar we were sleeping with all the beds you know. One after the other. In between my bed there was string for my father and mother. But I don’t know whether they knew I was there. I was sitting behind my bed. And they had called the doctor and then I got worried and I was listening what the doctor said. And the attaché told the people in the marquee as well. I heard the doctor say to my parents, ‘I am so sorry but you have to prepare for the end because you need food. There’s nothing I can do about it. I’m so sorry.’ I heard that. It was just, they just made it, my parents. Just. Yeah.
MC: It was very traumatic. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: So, but this, this —
MC: But they managed to survive with the drop. The food drop.
CVR: This whole event and I’m so grateful for it started in January. I’m with the U3A. You know the U3A?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And I’m in different clubs but once a month we have a meeting and in January there was a speaker. We always had a speaker and that was Paul Robinson. The vice air marshall. He would come then to talk about, did he say [pause] no not, that he would talk. Give a talk. I don’t know what the subject was but something about his career and all that. So I was sitting there and then he started and somebody helped him to show his video and all the pictures on the screen. And then he came suddenly to the Manna operation. He was started talking about Holland and I was sitting there, you know having thought never to be reminded of it any more. And there was this huge picture of the people standing in Holland. They’re looking at the Lancasters drop the food. And he was talking about that and I started to shake so much that somebody next to me put his hand on my arm, you know. To calm down. And we could always ask questions. And I put my hand up and there were more people but I kept on. I think I have to talk to him. I have to talk to him. And when it was my turn I said, ‘I only want to say I was there. I experienced the Manna operation and I have never had the opportunity to thank you,’ I said, although he was not in it but I meant the RAF at that time. I said, ‘I never had the opportunity to thank you for all you did. Dropped the food. Because if you wouldn’t have done that I might not have been here. I might not have had a family of course. Nothing.’ And then I started, blurted out some of my story. I thought later how could I do that? And people, it was so the silent in the hall. There were about eighty people of us. And Paul was standing there and I was so much in my story, and the person next to me, I think he was an RAF man as well he tried to calm down I was shaking so much. And then in my story I looked up to Paul and he had his hanky. He was crying. And then later the whole room, they came to us and loads of people were crying then. I thought, oh no. What have I done? What have I started? But to have been talking still about it all the time from that speech of Paul in January and from there on it, it happened. He said, ‘I want you in it on the 21st of April.’ And I told him I had my story, you know so we were in contact and also you know I went to Hemswell Court. I was invited on the 21st and the 25th is postponed now. The talk. But I don’t know if I can do that again even if they ask me. It’s all in the past now to talk about Manna operation.
MC: Going back slightly. Did you continue your schooling throughout that period and then after the war?
CVR: Yes. In the wartime I had to ausweis, you know.
MC: Yes. You said.
CVR: And then as soon as the liberation was there and the English people took over from the Germans and then I got a permit. An official permit to go to school because in that area nobody lived there yet. But my brother and I were permitted, the school was opened in the area, to go there. So that was quite, going every day to and from. And my brother and I were very inquisitive and after school time we went through all the area and there was no wood left. Not near the tram rails. Not in the houses because we did as well. We stole all the wood to burn in our little stoves we had, you know. We had a special stove in the wartime called Mayo and we burned stuff in there. But my brother and I went through all the streets and we went into the houses. There was nobody there. It was very spooky. And we discovered that the floors had been broken up and we said, ‘God, look at there.’ I can still remember the German soldiers slept under the floors. They had their beds still there and material lying around. We didn’t dare to touch anything but we noticed that in several places —
MC: Which area was that in?
CVR: That was Scheveningen in the Hague again. The Hague and close to it the fisher, the harbour.
MC: Oh, yeah. Where you’d moved out of.
CVR: Yeah. So, we were allowed, my brother and I via the permit to go to school.
MC: To school.
CVR: Yeah. Till people slowly went back, you know, to their own houses or other houses. But my parents were not allowed to go there yet. You know, it was all a very slow process. Because I was there I said, and I knew my mother wanted to go back but not to open a shop anymore. My brother and I didn’t want them to do that because of all the previous long opening times, you know. And I thought hold on. I go the first streets when I cross that border where we have the permit and there was a canal as well. So the first street I went in it is called Zwolestraat where we lived later. And I just knocked on the doors where people were already living. A couple here. A couple there. And when I knocked on the door can you imagine a young girl like that doing that? People opened the door and thought what’s that? They were still frightened. And I said, ‘Can you tell me the name of your landlord?’ [laughs] And they would just smack the door closed and I thought I won’t give up. And I tried again and I got used to putting my foot in between the door and the side so they couldn’t slam the door on me. And at last one couple, they — and then I explained all of that and they said, ‘Right. We will give you the name of the landlord.’ And I don’t know how I got hold of the keys. I got hold of keys of, in that road to look at houses. And my mother was allowed then to have to look at the houses. Our house, which we started to rent there was the floor open and stuff from the Germans underneath, you know. But we started to live there. And I did that.
MC: So there was still the houses were still owned by these people.
CVR: Landlords I suppose, you know but —
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And then slowly.
MC: I just wondered whether people might have just taken over the houses.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. But there was —
CVR: It must have been chaos. You know.
MC: Yes.
CVR: I don’t know all the ins and outs but slowly people came to live there till everything was ready again and the wood was in the houses. And that place around a corner where the V-1 was launched, you say.
MC: Launched. Yes.
CVR: Launched. Yeah.
MC: Yes.
CVR: That was really very damaged. I’d seen that and my brother wrote about it. About that launching there. Yeah.
MC: Did you see any of the launches?
CVR: No.
MC: Could you see them from where you were?
CVR: The damage. I’ve heard. When we lived in my uncle’s place ‘til the end of the war and we saw the V-1 from the distance.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: Shot off. And then on New Year’s Eve. One New Year’s Eve. That was the last New Year’s Eve I think, in ’44. We were all together all our family and we still managed to do a little bit together although there was no food. But we still had our own parties with whatever we had. And then suddenly we thought, oh no. Gosh. Another V-1 we saw going up to go to England I suppose. And then suddenly we all went, oh my God. It’s not going. It stops. It will turn. And it turned straight in front of our faces. And the whole family, they were standing there nailed to the floor because we didn’t know where it would land. And I was screaming my head off all the time. Nobody said to shut up because everybody was just, you know. I don’t know the word for it. They were stunned or whatever. And it went down a few streets behind us and a friend of mine, I still have contact with him, he lived there but luckily his house was not in [pause]
MC: Damaged.
CVR: In the damage but loads of other houses and all in the area the windows were, and the glass was everywhere but luckily we were then safe. Not other people unluckily. But quite a few people were killed in that V-1 that came down. So, I can remember that. Looking up. Screaming my head off and I was allowed to do that.
MC: So, when you, obviously the house that you moved into obviously needed rebuilding and —
CVR: Yeah.
MC: New floors.
CVR: Yeah, the wood.
MC: Did you get any assistance with that?
CVR: I think the landlord put all the wood, the wood back. Yeah. And inside my, my parents did everything.
MC: Wood must have been difficult to get hold of anyway.
CVR: Yeah. Yes, but I think it was not too bad and we lived there. And I lived there ‘til I got married. Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
MC: Going back to some of your times during the war. I mean you mentioned things like you were forbidden to listen to radios.
CVR: Oh yes.
MC: And the Germans used to check you. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. They were all hidden.
MC: Oh yeah.
CVR: All hidden. And as —
MC: You were told to hand them in but you hid them.
CVR: No. No. Hidden. And as soon as the programme with Churchill came on in the evening, 8 o’clock or so all the radios came out, you know and we were listening to it and the start of it, that special sound voom voom voom you know, news from Churchill. So, and then they were hidden again. But we had also to give all our jewellery, bicycles, you name it, we had to give that as well. But about the jewellery I have still have one little brooch left and money as well. Silver money. And that was with Queen Wilhelmina on it of course. And what people did they made jewellery out of the money. The silver money. And I still have one. I still have it.
MC: You talk, you talked about the German bunker. Passing the German bunker.
CVR: Oh God yeah. That was horrific that day. My mother, my brother and I walking home from church and that was just there where the Germans had their bunkers you call them?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. And also, that canal which was contaminated by the Germans. We picked up scabies from that, really bad. Anyway, when we came home from church and we walked past and of course my brother and I looked and then this German bloke got so angry with us and he lifted up his grenade and my mother said, ‘Walk. Walk. Look forward, in front of you. Look. Walk. Walk. Go home. Go home.’ And then my brother still looked around and he went straight into a lamppost and he broke his teeth [laughs] Yeah. But we were terrified because we thought really that bloke would throw the grenade. Luckily he didn’t.
MC: Very frightening.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. I mean you mentioned about a Jewish family down the road. Obviously there was a lot of Jews around and of course they wore the —
CVR: My little friend you are talking about. When we still lived in, in the occupied place before we had to leave. I don’t know if you mean that one. My best friend around the corner Greetje Stellamon.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Never forget her name. I can cry now because I don’t know what happened to her and then at that time my mum on the corner with her shop and Greetje just living a few houses further and the whole family had to wear the stars. And my mother was so terrified because if it was spotted that I had a Jewish friend God knows what would have happened to me and my family. So my mother, bless her she had to forbid to get on with Greetje Stellamon and I suppose she had a talk with the family. And I never never went along with her any more. We just ignored the whole Jewish family because my mother, and my father I suppose were terrified that something would happen to them. And now yet and I have contact with Thea Coleman, this Jewish woman who survived the war as well and I haven’t talked about it with her. Sometimes I phone her and she phones me. She was there on the 21st of April but her story is also fantastic. She wrote it in a different way because she had to hide and she was twelve years old as well. And she had to go from one place to the other. She had, oh she had not a very nice childhood. In a certain way worse than I but she survived and now the strange thing is, Mike when we have been talking to each other we lived always close together in the occupied area. Never to know each other. We know all the roads and after the wartime she moved into a road straight behind the road where I lived, Zwolsestraat. She lived in Harstenhoekstraat — one street further. She was always close to me in whatever area we lived. We never knew each other. And every time —
MC: You lived that close.
CVR: Every time we come to different solutions. I think her cousin went to the same school as I went. Thea, just in the last three years of the wartime he went to the same school as I went also. And it’s just amazing. Just amazing.
MC: When you lived with your, in the cellar with your family. How many of you were there in the cellar then? Because —
CVR: My mother and my father. Next to them I slept, is three. Then my brother, four. And my cousin, five. And then the maître d who served in the restaurant.
MC: That’s the domestic help you referred to.
CVR: Six. And sometimes if my family could still come over before it got too worse then there was another one. So, about the most was seven or eight but normally five to six. Yeah.
MC: So, did you, you didn’t have any windows in the cellar then?
CVR: Horrible. Because it was low on the ground. We had two windows. If I look up. In my memory there was one there, small window. And there was one there, small window. And then you could just see through the grid. There was a grid in the garden of course from my uncle and aunt’s garden. Just look through the grid up there. And then there was this open place, you know. Just a bricked, bricked hole there. But then the Germans flooded the west of the country. Also as a punishment. The water came in those areas as well. In those holes. And that flooded into the cellar where we lived and every morning we were up to our ankles in the water. And then we got this flea epidemic. I was an expert in catching fleas there. It was absolutely a horrible situation. Yeah.
MC: But you ate, you used to eat upstairs in the restaurant there.
CVR: Well not in the restaurant but in the dining-sitting room of.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You know we were with, with whom we lived there day in day out. We were sitting around a table with this uncle who died who was sitting next to me, you know. Yeah. It was really, really bad. But there was hardly anything you know. And if my aunt still could get hold of something. Especially from my uncle. He was the one who got extra food if he had. I don’t know but being a child if I noticed that there was something in the kitchen, just move that plant away, if there was something in the kitchen from my uncle. She managed one day I remember to make sort of pea soup and if I knew there was nobody around I quickly went to the kitchen and I just stole a few spoons of the soup. Or in the cellar, on the top she had some store or something from oats. Raw oats. And I would put my hand in it and ate a handful of oats. You know.
MC: Yeah. Amazing.
CVR: I stole from the Germans as well.
MC: Did you?
CVR: It’s in there. Because they had potato plants in, in the parks you know and there was, there were always soldiers on guard with their guns and at one point my friends and I decided to steal potatoes, you know. Not telling our parents we went there and one of our group would stand guard for us to warn us if the German guard would come along. So we just pulled out potatoes, you know and we had a plastic or not plastic bag. I don’t know if plastic bags were there then. But in a bag and then one, at one point our guard shouted, ‘Run. Run. Run.’ You know. They never said anything [unclear] we knew we had to run. So we just ran home and I gave my parents these few potatoes. And I was told off by my father. He said, ‘Where did you get them from?’ And I would say, ‘I stole them from the park.’ And he said, ‘You must never steal.’ I remember him saying that honestly or honestly, profoundly. You must never steal. He said, ‘Give the potatoes and I’ll bring them back.’ I thought oh great. But I never saw the potatoes any more and I think we had eaten them that night [laughs] Yeah.
MC: Tell me about your story you told about David and Goliath. The two stoves.
CVR: Oh the two stoves. Yeah. David and Goliath because I told you that David we called the Mayo, Thea in our story knows this as well and she mentioned it at Hemswell Court when the BBC took film there. But that was very dangerous because they had to get that stove going. The David. The Mayo and put in all the stolen pieces of wood all the time to keep warm. And they warmed at the same time and the pan with water because we needed some times hot water and then it happened that my, the poor aunt she pulled the pan with the hot water over her leg. That was absolutely horrendous you know but that’s how we lived every day, you know.
MC: Because that’s where the wood came from. From the houses.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: To fuel the stoves.
CVR: Yeah. Oh people stole everything. Wood. Everywhere around. And then the Goliath. That was in the restaurant still. A huge stove. But that was not used anymore in the end. There was nothing. The restaurant was closed. There was nothing any more.
MC: You talked about the bicycle. Riding to the farms.
CVR: Oh yeah.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. And then often then they came back from the farmers and we had to give our linen, you know. In exchange for food.
MC: Swap it. Exchange it for food.
CVR: And then sometimes people went back on their bicycles. Sometimes without tyres, you know. Just the wheels.
MC: Why did they not have tyres?
CVR: Because if the tyres were finished you couldn’t get any new ones and then, then they came suddenly to a post where the German guards were they had to give everything. The bicycle, all the food stuffs, the lot. They had gone to the farmers for nothing that day.
MC: So the Germans could take the bikes off them.
CVR: Yeah. And the food.
MC: And the food.
CVR: So one day I went with my brother but we were not successful that day, you know. And then my parents were so near to starving as well I thought you know, I go. I knew somebody around the corner and I think he had a chicken farm. Yeah. So I went there and I knocked on these big doors and the doors opened and I put my foot in between there as well so I had learned that already from that time and I told him if, ‘My parents are very ill. They need some food otherwise they’ll die. Can I have a chicken that they can cook it and make some soup of it?’ And he said, ‘No. No.’ That was one of the people who didn’t cooperate. And I said, ‘Oh my father, he always delivers bread here. He has loads of bread,’ it was not true anymore, and I said, ‘I will get you a nice loaf of bread.’ But no. I had to get my foot out of the way. I didn’t get it.
MC: What about clothes? How did you cope with clothes?
CVR: Clothes. You couldn’t get clothes at all any more. And my mum, somehow she got hold of a vest and pants for me. Horrible. Horrible colour. Horrible green. Funny colour. And all straight. No shape in it at all. And God knows how much she paid for it but they were absolutely horrible. So, oh yeah, and what we did as well, people, if the men’s trousers were worn then the women would turn the material. All unravelled and turn the material and from the good pieces they made skirts for themselves or for the children. Yeah. They did that as well. No. There was nothing. I’ll show you the coupons as well, I have.
MC: You’ve got some coupons.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah. See then I go into it. I can talk for hours and my children would say, ‘Mum. Stop your non-stop talking.’ [laughs]
MC: You keep talking.
CVR: Yeah. But I still think again twelve years old. How, how could I remember all that? Now I have to, difficulty remembering other things, you know. The short term memory. It’s still okay but this is better in my memory than anything else. It must have been, made a huge impact.
MC: When you talked about you going to the farm and getting some chicken and that you said that you talked about getting a big, going to the Germans with a big bang.
CVR: Oh. Oh my gosh. If I remember that day. I thought I have to get some food, you know all that time that my parents were ill and my uncle. And there was, on the, on the main street I used to go on there to school if I still could go there in the city and then I thought I’ll go there. I never told my parents anything what I was up to. And I got the largest pan out of the cupboard and I went to this place which used to be called [unclear] And that was a place where they had [pause] it was a milk factory. Yeah. They got the milk from the farmers, you know, from the cows and there they processed the milk. But the Germans had occupied that factory and chucked out all the Dutch people. They, that was for them. Nobody could get anything. And I knew that they were cooking food as well there and I thought I would go there. So there was this German on guard there, you know, with his gun and I said in Dutch then, you know, ‘Could I have some food for my family because they are really very bad at the moment?’ And he got so cross with me and I didn’t go away. I said, ‘Please. Please. Just a little bit.’ And he got so cross with me. Couldn’t get rid of me. And he said something in German which funnily enough I’d picked up a little bit of German and he started shouting at me. I had to go away. And it was the fault of Queen Wilhelmina, ‘That schweinhund,’ he went. You know, you know what schweinhund means. ‘That schweinhund leaving you all to yourselves and just fleeing abroad.’ He said it was her fault and he wouldn’t give me any food and if I would not go away quickly he would just shoot me. And he went like this with his gun. And I’m frightened. I ran with my little legs as quickly as I could. I ran away and I came home. And then I got told off. My parents were mortified that I had done that. It was [unclear] never never ever to do that again.
MC: You got into a bit of trouble with your parents occasionally didn’t you?
CVR: Yeah. And with my brother as long as we could go to school along this big long road we passed a little shop which used to be an ice cream parlour before the war I think. And he tried to do something still for everybody you know. We had to pay a little bit of money. I think a kwartje they called it. Twenty five cents and then I got that, you know from my parents. And maybe later they did it without being paid. They were very good people and they gave us sort of what they called [unclear] and that was a very fluffy, a fluffy bit of, not ice cream but very fluffy stuff. Like foamy stuff and it was either white or pink and we ate that and that filled up our stomachs like anything, you know. And we never knew what it was. And later from my friend in Holland and in the booklet I got to know now that was made of sugar beets. Of the, the moisture, the sap that came from it they used to make that sort of foam in a certain way how they made ice cream in the machines.
MC: A bit like candy floss?
CVR: Yeah. Very light stuff.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And that filled our stomachs up for an hour or so.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. That was what we did. Oh gosh and I’m sure, the rumours then but I’m sure we ate some cat and dog as well in the end. Yeah. What do you do?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You eat rabbits.
MC: That’s right. Yeah.
CVR: And in that situation why not cat and dogs?
MC: You talked about getting bags of grain. When you’d got to sort out the mouse droppings.
CVR: Oh my gosh yeah. You had to sort all these grains out. It was [pause] we sat in the restaurant then. No people came any more. I remember sitting at a table and sort out all this grain and get all the droppings out, you know. And I used to make myself and my cousin Stijnie, a girl, she was a bit older than I, about four years older and we tried to make a sort of cake out of the sugar beet if we could get hold of it. Just put sort of soya sort of milk to get it smaller, or whatever we did. A sort of mincemeat machine, yeah, and tried to make a nice cake of it and make some thick, some [pectin?] in it. And once my uncle came out from the café restaurant to us because he still had, when there was still something to drink, my cousin and I always had to do all the washing up and before also when the food was still there and we got plates and plates for trays and trays full of stuff to wash up, you know. And as soon as that was finished he came with another tray. And then once he came at the back and he settled to how sort of, ‘What the hell are you going to do there?’ And we told him we were trying to make a cake of sugar beets. And oh he was livid. Livid. ‘Who would eat this rubbish you feed to the cattle,’ you know. ‘Stop it.’ But we didn’t stop. We wanted to eat something. Yeah. Oh dear. Crikey. I have so much information now. It’s amazing that I got straight into it. This one I have to have translated because it’s so interesting. I tried to find it because it tells me so much of, about the gamellans. If you have time.
[Pause. Shuffling paper]
CVR: Here we are, coming down. The parachutes. It’s a huge thing, you see.
MC: Yeah. After the war, yeah —
CVR: Yeah.
MC: And you talked about bread from Sweden arriving.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah. The flour came, you know first, in the centres.
MC: And you did your own baking.
CVR: Hmmn?
MC: You did used to —
CVR: No. it was baked for us in the bakeries.
MC: Right.
CVR: Yeah. But he had such a, every day he wrote what happened. How many —
MC: That was your brother.
CVR: What is luchtalarm again. When the alarm goes off again. That there is a bombing.
MC: A siren.
CVR: Siren. Yeah. Six sirens. Nine V-1s came over. Every day he said the same. Three V-1s. The next day twelve sirens. What we ate these days. Soup. Soup again. Or something else you know. It’s amazing what he wrote down for every day that happened. Half a litre of soup. Eight V-1s.[pause] Amazing. Amazing. His story is so different from mine but so interesting.
MC: So after, at the time of the liberation, obviously the liberating army came through.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: You saw the tanks.
CVR: Yeah. Yes. That was the day I was so astonished, you know. We all went to look when the tanks came in with the soldiers. And loads of then older teenagers, I didn’t do it, I was too young but all the older girls, you know they were mad about all these soldiers. Climbing up and kissing them and throwing flowers everywhere and, you know. And then after that all the girls who had been girlfriends of the Germans soldiers they had come along you know, run the gauntlet and before that all their hair was shorn off. They had to do that. I can remember that. I thought, yeah. You know, it was a sort of revenge. What, what use is it? But —
MC: But that was their only punishment.
CVR: Yeah. You can imagine how people reacted after that. But they left them alone. Nobody was attacked. Nothing.
MC: You talked about the canal.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Being a tank wall.
CVR: Oh yeah.
MC: It was contaminated.
CVR: That was contaminated. And so all we children we jumped in it. We wanted to swim and, you know we felt free to do what we wanted to do. So all these children they got a skin [pause]
MC: Scabies.
CVR: Scabies yeah. Skin trouble. Scabies. So from the, the yeah sort of NHS [unclear] you know a service to look after people if they become ill and all that. And send doctors out to check and examine. And so all the children, including my brother and I were diagnosed with scabies. And my parents were given a sort of soap. Maybe I wrote about it. I can’t come up with it now. And in the evening they had to wash us totally and then put all this certain soap, I think there was sulphur in it. Yeah. A sort of sulphur soap. They had to cover us from top to bottom in this sulphur soap and then sleep in it the whole night. And then the next morning my parents were advised to make a bath ready. We didn’t have a bath. We had a sink top you know, with hot water. You had to sit in it. And then scrub us with a hard brush but my mum couldn’t do that, you know. So she washed us properly and maybe rubbed us very hard. And then I think that would do the trick and I think it did the trick but so many children had that and they were told all the stuff we had slept in that night we had to bring to a certain centre and it would be burned in an incinerator. I don’t know what my mother did but maybe she washed herself. I don’t know what she did.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: So that was at the end. After the war. At the end of the war was it?
CVR: Yeah.
MC: That was the end of the war.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: So did things get back to normal fairly quickly or —?
CVR: No. Not quickly. It took quite some time. A few months to get everything back to a sort of normality because there was still not food enough. That had to come in slowly, you know. It took a long time. Like you hear now in all the other countries where things happen. It takes time as well
MC: It does take time. Yeah.
CVR: People complain sometimes. Why not do things directly. It can’t be done. It has to be organized.
MC: So the [pause] your parents, your father carried on working but your mother didn’t. Where did you finish your schooling then?
CVR: Let me think. In 1948, I still know the name of the Grammar School where I went to then [Paulussbaustraat?] My brother and I went. And I finished my schooling in 1948. And, yeah. What did I want to do then? I was then sixteen. Nearly seventeen. And I wanted to go into nursing but nobody accepted me. I had to be eighteen. So I thought what shall I do then? And I thought hold on they take on younger people in centres where there is tuberculosis. In sanatoria. So I went there without telling. You know, I just went there. My parents. And went there and could I become a nurse there. I don’t know what the outcome was there then but then I came home. I told that I had did that. I had done that and my father went livid. I’d forgotten all about his first marriage and losing his wife and child from tuberculosis. And I can still remember him sitting opposite me and my mum was always very sweet and calm and all that. She didn’t know what to do. To say. And my father went, he was a good man but if he would get angry, and the words he said then sometimes, oh. But he said, ‘If you go ahead with that,’ I can still remember him sitting there, ‘If you go ahead with that I’ll break both your legs.’ He said that to me. And, and then I thought oh my gosh, you know. So the next day I thought I want to keep my legs so never went ahead with it.[laughs] And then, you know I thought, yeah what do I do then and then I decided to go to a domestic science school. And that was a course for two years but because there were only four students who wanted to do this special domestic science course that would last two years and they said we can take you on only for one year because we can’t keep you on for the second year. Only four. So you have to do this course, that was said to the four of us, in one year. It will be hard work but you will have to do it. Otherwise forget it. So we did it. You know. We did it in one year and then my father offered to me, he said, ‘Why don’t you stay on or apply for a course to be a teacher in cookery.’ Cooking. And I said, ‘No. I don’t want to do that.’ I thought I had to stay on in that school for a start. And the director Der Theresa, the woman, I didn’t like her at all. She was always caked in makeup and she was never very friendly. The teachers were fine and I thought no I don’t want to be in her school any more so I said no. And then later I thought how would he have paid for it? My father. I had no idea how he would have done that. Anyway, I said, ‘No. I don’t want to do that.’ And then I started applying for jobs. Loads of jobs. I wanted to be a midwife. I wanted to be a stewardess. I wanted to be a social carer. I wanted to be going on in dancing. I loved dancing and still, until two years ago I still did, tried to do the can-can. On my eightieth birthday I did a can-can. And I invited loads of people from church and U3A and they still talk about it. I do the swimming. I did a can-can. Anyway, I wanted to do that in performances. You know, theatre stuff. Nothing worked. I applied for a job for checking washing machines. Go in to that what was the best washing machine and things. The most silly things I did. Never got going. And then in the end I thought hold on I can apply with a steel company in the Hague. [Roopervandervoort?] a very famous steel company. And I have to earn money. My parents said, ‘You have to start somewhere. You have to earn money.’ Meanwhile I had finished my grammar school you know and I had got my diplomas and all that and my diploma from the Domestic Science School and then so I started to work for the steel company. And that was okay. I got my salary you know and worked from nine to five. And I didn’t like working from nine to five and I thought what shall I do now and the director of the steel company suddenly said, ‘Would you like to come with me for a week to Rotterdam,’ to the same company to set up a sort of system I did already in the Hague. And I said, ‘Okay fine.’ So he picked me up and he had a beautiful Oldsmobile. Went to Rotterdam and did that but in that time I had a boyfriend. He dumped me and I was crying every morning and this director said, ‘What’s wrong with you?’ I told him. I was okay in the daytime but oh that affected me so much. Anyway, I thought I’m fed up with this nine to five job. I want to do something else. You know what I did then? I applied to work for the police headquarters in the Hague. And I was accepted.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: As a telephonist telexist but that involved working different shifts which I loved. Night or day. Or Sundays. Easter. Christmas. I didn’t care. That was what I liked. On call sometimes. So I worked there till I met my husband. And I still worked on and we married and I still worked on but then I was expecting a baby and I had a miscarriage and then you know then I had to give up.
MC: So when were you married?
CVR: In 1954 I was married. In November. 20th of November ‘54. Yeah. And then after this miscarriage I was expecting soon again and I got with twins.
MC: Bless you.
CVR: Amazing. Yeah. So but I never went back to work then anymore. It was impossible. Impossible. Yeah.
MC: So when did you come to the UK then?
CVR: In 1966 when my husband worked for Esso. First for [unclear] and then for Esso. And then he was asked by an American boss of, in America then of Esso or that was not ExxonMobil yet I think. Anyway, he came over and he had talks with my husband and my husband [pause] yeah yeah he said would, would he be interested in a job in England? In London. To set up an office there for Esso. Although there was already Esso in I think it was Mund Street, someplace. Anyway, so we thought it over and we had my four small children and I was worried stiff about my children to move to England. And my husband said as well you know if he come to do it it will be very challenging and an adventure. He said, ‘If I say no I will be ever stuck after my bureau in the Hague. I will be never asked again for something.’ And anyway this, this person, the American, he was called Tom Kennedy and he came over again. And I had had talks with my English teacher. That year before we decided to move I went to conversation lessons in English. I loved it. And I said to her, I said, ‘We are offered this job but I’m scared stiff about my children.’ She said, ‘What? Don’t worry about your children. They will be fine. They will pick it up very soon.’ And she said, ‘And in your case don’t worry.’ Because at the Grammar School I had to learn, apart from Dutch, French, German and English. So I had three basic languages. She said, ‘Don’t. Don’t worry,’ you know. ‘Go to a little school there and you will be fine. Don’t worry.’ So then in the end when Tom came over and he invited us to go to Rotterdam on this sort of tower that went around like in London as well. We had a dinner and talks and he took us out on a canal tour with the children as well. And then in the end without children he invited us again and he said, ‘Have you come to a decision?’ And he said, ‘You know what? I think you are nearly there. I’ll leave you on your own here. Just have a coffee after your dinner. I’ll go away. I’ll come back and see what you have decided in the end because I have to know now.’ And he came back and my husband and I talked about it for five minutes and we said, ‘We’ll do it. We’ll do it.’ So we told him and he said fine. And from then on you know we moved to England in ‘66 with our four small children. And we decided on a house in Caterham in Surrey. But the people still lived there so they had to move out. They wanted to sell the house. And for the time being we were in Selsdon Park Hotel. Do you know Selsdon Park Hotel?
MC: No.
CVR: No. In Surrey. Anyway, a lovely hotel and we, we lived there a couple of weeks with the children until we knew we could settle in a house. And so it went. And we came without a penny because you know we didn’t have a lot of money when we lived in Holland. And then four children. And, and so we had to have a loan. A sort of mortgage. A bridging loan it was called. Yeah. And so we came without a penny and then we decided to get rid of this bridging loan and the mortgage as soon as he could and of course because he got this job in England he was paid well so we paid lots and lots off every month. What we could. And in eleven years we had done it. Yeah. We did it.
MC: Very good.
CVR: Really great. Yeah.
MC: So you’ve been in England ever since.
CVR: Yeah. On the day we, we moved that was on the Cup Final day. The last day of July ’66 was it?
MC: I think it was. Yes.
CVR: In July. And my taxi driver who picked us up from the airport and took us to the Selsdon Park Hotel he had a face like that. And he said, ‘You know what. Because I have to take you to the Selsdon Park Hotel I’ve missed the whole Cup Final now,’ [laughs] I’ve never forgotten that. Yeah.
MC: Well that’s a lovely story that Coby. It’s a lovely story.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And I thank you very much.
CVR: Yeah. And again I hope I didn’t keep you up too long.
MC: No. no. no. as long as you can talk we can record.
CVR: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Coby Van Riel
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AVanRielJF150825
Format
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01:20:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Netherlands
Sweden
Netherlands--Hague
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1943
1944
1945
1948
Description
An account of the resource
Coby Van Riel was a child of about six when the Germans invaded Holland. She lived in a fishing port area of The Hague where her father had a number of jobs to make ends meet in the difficult days before the war and her mother ran a chemist shop. She witnessed the German parachutists landing and the bombing of the area and saw the injuries to the civilian population some of whom went to her mother’s shop for help. When the Germans took over the area the family were forced to move out of their house and give up the shop and they went to live in the cellar of her uncle’s café. She recalls the round-up of civilians sent to forced labour and of the local Jewish population sent to Concentration Camps. She talks about what it was like for civilians to live in the occupation and recalls the time she was asked to carry a secret message in the sole of her shoe. She talks of the Hunger Winter when people began to starve. She lost her uncle to starvation and her parents were very close to death when help finally arrived. She witnessed Operation Manna and expresses her gratitude for the efforts of the RAF. She also recalls seeing V-1 rockets and seeing the damage caused by them.
anti-Semitism
bombing
childhood in wartime
forced labour
Holocaust
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Resistance
round-up
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1303/18066/PDeverellCRE1901.2.jpg
950416d1c0bc8ddd5d7e83d96d0bcca5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1303/18066/ADeverellCRE190722.2.mp3
011ccd66271ee51e3abd56830e71714f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Deverell, Colin
Colin Ray Edwin Deverell
C R E Deverell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Colin Deverell (b. 1923). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-07-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Deverell, CRE
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I am interviewing Colin Deverell today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Colin’s home and it is Monday the 22nd of July 2019, and thank you Colin for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present is Colin’s daughter, Liz. So Colin perhaps we could start by you telling me about where and when you were born and something about your family please.
CD: Yes, well I was born in Thornton Heath, Croydon, on the 28th of November 1923, at number 13 Camden Way. It was a council house. I had a father who was on the buses as an inspector and a mother who worked jolly hard at home doing the washing and everything else in those days. I went to school locally, Elementary school, Ingram Road, that was quite close. It was quite a good school actually. And later on, I failed, I have to say I failed the grammar school, the exam for the grammar school, so I failed that and I went to a secondary school so that was up until I was aged fourteen, when I left. Okay. And then on from there, and on from there what to do as a job. This is the trouble with boys, they didn’t know what they wanted to do you see, but I was very keen on aircraft but at that stage you couldn’t get anywhere with aircraft but I went to, worked at a firm called Oliver Typewriter Company, Oliver typewriters – I have one upstairs actually - and I was making those and that was the best bit of engineering I did really, to learn how to, how to drill through metal, how to put a thread in a hole for a bolt and things like that and stamping out pieces for the typewriter, you know, all the arms that come down, everything like that. So that was, that got me into Imperial Airways, my father worked hard to get me in to Imperial Airways in some way and became a rigger, just an amateur rigger, you know, to start off. Well the reason I’d got there was because I had got all this information from the typewriters, engineering, and I learnt a lot from these aircraft, putting parts into the aircraft, doing this, that and the other, dogsbody, making coffee for the people that worked there, that’s what boys had to do and I watched other engineers soldering wires together and that sort of thing so I learnt from that you see, and that went on, until, well that was all these Handley Page aircraft, big bi-planes with four engines, fixed propellers that didn’t move at all and it flew at about four thousand miles, er four thousand feet at about a hundred and ten, hundred and twenty miles an hour and took two and a half hours to get to Paris. So the steward on board, they had stewards then, cooked them a meal, all of them a meal, they had proper meals. So that was a nice little trip for them at four thousand feet. Well that went on until the war started and I’m afraid it went out of business of course and I was there till about November 1939 and I was told well I’m afraid the apprentice had come to an end, so that was the end of that and I lost my job as well so I had to find something else. I searched round and a lot of little firms at Croydon aerodrome, lot of hangars down there, one of them was called Rollason Aircraft Services, and I went there and yes I got a job there, I was drilling and all sorts of things, working on bi-planes Hawker Hectors, Demons and Audaxes and all obsolete aircraft and that was a wonderful period. Of course the war was on unfortunately. So what happened, by July, July the 10th, 1940 the bombing started on airfields and Biggin Hill and Kempston and Kenley and all these got a bashing. Croydon got it on the 15th of August, 15th of August 1940 at 7pm in the evening. These Messerschmidt 110s came over and there’s a picture up there, and I’m sorry to say, well I was underneath an Airspeed Oxford, it’s a twin-engined wooden aircraft, now we had to get this aircraft out - this was seven o’clock in the evening - we had to get this aircraft out of the hangar by the morning because they were bringing some Hurricanes in that needed repairs, so I was underneath there with another chap doing some wiring when all these bombs came down. At the back of our factory there was a Bourgeois scent factory and about fifty girls got killed there, we lost about, there were sixty were killed or injured in Rollasons, so I was, I mean how lucky can I be [emphasis] to be underneath that aircraft, glass, metal came down, the glass went through the wood, it’s a wooden aircraft, through the wood, into the metal tanks, into the metal tanks to glass [emphasis], thick glass, yeah, so I think I would have died, I wouldn’t have been here if I had been outside. But I don’t know if you want more information on that but thing is, I was covered in muck and glass and stuff, you know, and severely dazed, the place was on fire, the little canteen had been bombed and there was a bottle of Tizer - I found a bottle of Tizer - and took the screw off and poured it over me head and I don’t recommend that to anybody because it’s very sticky! So I had a sticky head, so that’s my Tizer. Anyway, I had a new bike, my father bought me a new bike for two pound seven and sixpence, two pound seven and sixpence, and I thought to myself where’s my bike. Well this, you know it went on through the evening, we were told to go down to the air raid shelter and went down there and after a few minutes told to come up again, because the siren hadn’t gone, you know, before the raid. No one knew it was happening. Nobody, nobody on the gun, cause a Bofurs gun there, nobody there to operate it to shoot aircraft down. Anyway, so I got on, oh I found my bike leaning against the wall and it was all right so I cycled home and at that stage we were living in Thornton Road, Croydon, a little flat there, and when I got round there I saw my mother leaning out of the window actually, cause she knew the place was being bombed you see, she thought I’d have had it. I mean seven o’clock it happened, it was ten o’clock when I got home. Just imagine, how pleased she was to see me. Sadly for her we were bombed, the house was damaged quite badly and she died on Christmas Day in 1940, all the ceiling in the kitchen came down on her head and damaged her brain, so I lost my mother quite early in my life, which was very sad really. Anyway, I moved to another, to a friend of mine in Streatham, and that’s when I went to this new school, and then eventually. Sorry, I’m going back a bit here, but that’s when I left to go to erm, the, oh sorry, when I went, oh the yeah, sorry, after the raid we, they treated me very well – Rollasons - I went back to them, I was very dazed as you can imagine, being bombed as a boy, I was only fifteen and I went to the office they said and well we’ll keep you on pay for the time being and we’ll let you know what happens. So I went home again and eventually we were told we were going to Hanworth aerodrome in Middlesex, funny little aerodrome actually, it was just a sort of almost a private, just grass, you know. They had a few Fairey Battles there. Anyway, we still continued repairing Hurricanes, but they felt there were one or two bi-planes left over from Croydon, they put these on a lorry and I remember sitting in the cockpit of a, I think it was a Hawker Demon and went all the way from Croydon to Hanworth and I was waving to people as I went by like that, [laugh] and I think they thought it was quite funny. [Laugh] I mean it’s all obsolete aircraft. But you know, went back on to Hurricanes. How did we get there, you know, each day, as I was living in Thornton Heath still, in Thornton Road. They had put a coach on for us, from West Croydon station and any of us living there, took a tram for a penny, a tram in those days, for a penny, up to West Croydon station, went over and sat in the coach and it took us to this aerodrome, and at the end of the day they brought us back again, another penny on the tram back home. So that’s how it went on. That went on all the way through 1941 and I thought to myself I want to join, I’m going to join the RAF to get my own back, my mother died, you know, so I had a sort of grievance feeling about all this. So I went to the Croydon, the Croydon agency and they said well, we’re sending chaps down, down the coal mines as well as the army. I said no, no, I’m working on aircraft, I want something to do with aircraft, I want to train as a pilot. Don’t they all, she said, I remember, she said don’t they all! And there was a three month waiting list, okay, for, to train as a pilot, but she said we’re desperately in need of flight engineers, and they did have them on Imperial Airways actually, so it goes back a long way, on four-engined aircraft. So yes, okay, I’ll do that, so within the week I was called up. I was, I went to Lords Cricket ground, that was fun! “Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here” was the sign up there. We picked up all sorts of stuff there and we, we went to, were put into flats, in Viceroy Court which is just outside a zoo, so we could hear the monkeys laughing at us and we were there for a couple weeks, or something like that. We went to Torquay from there, Torquay and did all the physical training: clay pigeon shooting, physical training, running, sports, anything, you know, just to keep our mind off things. But I used to like the running, cross country running as I got used to that, you know. Clay pigeon shooting – I got good at that - swimming I was never very good at, but anyway we’ll pass over that won’t we. One of the things we had to do was go to the quayside there, and there was a place there, it was about the height of the ceiling down to the water. And the idea was to jump off there with a Mae West on you see, and to swim to the shore. I wasn’t very happy about that, you can imagine, though I did it and I managed to get to the shore, so that was fine, but I never have been a very good swimmer. Anyway, so I joined up and within a week I was, sorry, I’m getting muddled here, I went down to Torquay, that’s it, Torquay, and I was there for six weeks, did all these familiar things, the running and the sports and everything else. And then as flight engineers we had to train at St Athan in South Wales and we had to choose between a Lancaster, oh no, Stirling, Lancaster, Halifax and the flying boat. The flying boat, what was that?
CJ: Sunderland?
CD: Sunderland, Sunderland. So it was three, four, yes, there were four we could choose from. I don’t know why, but I liked the idea of the Stirling: it had radial engines, I knew something about those you see, so I decided to train on those. So that’s what I did at St Athan, I trained on these Stirlings. It was, you know, a full day, a really full day, training and I was there, I was there for some weeks, I can’t think how long we were there now. Anyway that was in ‘40, ‘42, yes. The Stirling was a strange sort of aircraft really, it was all electric, all the other aircraft were hydraulic controlled and even the undercarriage you had wiring and a solenoid, which introduced a control there I think you’d call it and the flaps. We had fourteen petrol tanks and this was the flight engineer’s job, he had to look after those, all different amounts in each tank, you can just imagine. It was all levers and wheels, nothing, no buttons you know, like you have today and with the undercarriage the pilot switched the switch down, just as we were coming in to land, to get the undercarriage down. No, let’s start off by going up. So if we, the undercarriage was down obviously, we’d take off, the switch goes, switch up, and a lever up like that and the undercarriage should then come up, if it doesn’t the flight engineer would have to go back to the middle of the aircraft, to the control machine there and you had to wind the undercarriage up and it could be up to five hundred, five hundred turns! Yeah, so that’s, occasionally I did the flight in Stirlings, I had to just start it off. This is where you had to be careful, if you started it off, you see, and you said to the pilot try it now and he switched it up or down, whatever it is, the undercarriage, it would go round and round, and the handle and you’d break your wrist and some flight engineers did break their wrists doing that. So you had to tell the pilot: do not touch that switch till I tell you to! So that’s all, that was the operations. You’re in flight coming down, so switch down, lever down, undercarriage should come down, if not, put the switch back again, go back to the and wind it for a little while, then tell, take your hand away and take the handle out and tell the skipper to switch the, there, switch it down, [unclear] so it was quite a complicated business really, so I don’t think anyone recommended the idea of electric aircraft, but they’re all electric now, aren’t they, everything’s electric, even cars! So that’s what we had to do. It’s a very long, long aircraft. There’s an elsan at the back of the aircraft if you wanted to go to the toilet, but who would want to go all the way back there in the dark to the toilet and then be shot at by a fighter, sitting on the toilet so we never did use it, we found other means. It was fairly slow really, I mean we used to cruise at about a hundred and seventy miles an hour, whereas a Lancaster could do much more than that. And height, height was a problem: we could only go up to ten thousand feet, so anyone going to Tunis, Milan, which they did in the Stirlings, over the mountains of course, so ten thousand feet was about the limit really. And of course you took all the flak, you know, if it was Stirlings and Lancasters, as Lancasters we would be up there, we used to be up at seventeen thousand feet in a Lancaster, and the Stirlings were down here, ten thousand feet and they got loads of flak. They lost more Stirlings, including the number that actually flew, they lost far more Stirlings, so that’s the, that was my choice. We went to Chedburgh for training on the aircraft as the flight engineer, and the pilot and we had the instructors with us, we took off and did all that we needed to do at Chedburgh. And then eventually we were appointed to a squadron and on this occasion it was Wratting Common, which is quite close. I don’t know if you have, no, anyway Wratting Common was the place. Oh! Terrible place, it was all mud, it had been raining like mad and it was all mud everywhere and on one occasion I walked through the WAAF quarters as it was much drier and I was told off, oooh you can’t do that, mustn’t do that, ooh no! Anyway, the first operation we did was to the Frisian Islands, the Frisian Islands off Germany there, dropping mines, that was uneventful, came back. The second trip was to Kiel, Kiel Harbour, yup. And we had mines to go down there because the u-boats were in there, you know, and I think probably they hadn’t got the pens completely ready so I think we probably did knock out some of the submarines there. So that was the second. Now the third trip was to Lorient, l o r i e n t Lorient on the south coast of France. Lorient was a place where they had u-boat pens and they had built them there, and they were very, very thick concrete so how they thought we could, well we would, we dropped mines, we were hoping that the submarines coming back would hit one, I mean that’s what it was all about really, but the bombs wouldn’t have done anything to them. But what happened with us there, we nearly got the chop there, because off the island, I think it was about a mile, two miles, two miles off, there was an island called Isle de Croix, Island of the Cross, and our bomb aimer, he took over you see, when we were going to drop the mines, the idea was to go around the island, but we went over the island, quite low down actually and there were all these Bofors guns there, these, like onions, red hot onions on chains coming up each side of us. How they missed us I do not know! We got over the island safely and then we had to go round the island again, round [emphasis] the island and then drop these mines. But that was a close, very close, but that was what the sprog crews do, the wrong thing, you see, that’s why you always get the chop in the early days, I’m afraid. Now what did I do after that? I think we went on to Lancasters after that, we did a conversion, that was it at Tuddenham or Wratting Common. I’ve got an idea that might have been Wratting Common. The Stirling was taken off because the chop rate was so heavy; they couldn’t continue like that, and it didn’t carry much of a bomb load anyway. So that was the end of that. But of course they were in use quite a bit later on – I’ll tell you about that. So what we do we went on to Lancasters, which was what we really wanted really because we knew it was much faster, it went up much higher, seventeen thousand feet was quite usual, we thought we’d be out of the range of their flak, we hoped, so that was what we did. Actually I went to Derby with my pilot to do I think it was a couple of days on the Merlin engine, so that was quite useful and I did that without going on leave. Some went on leave you see, but I decided I wanted to learn something about the Merlin, so that was done, I came back. What was my first trip, was a – can you switch off a minute?
CJ: So what was your first operation when you’d converted to Lancasters?
CD: Well, it took us by surprise actually, it was Duisburg in the Ruhr. Course that was a very important area round there: they were producing aircraft, tanks and everything else. So on the 25th June ‘43 we went to the Ruhr valley, Duisburg which we knew would be heavily defended. We took off from about ten pm and made for the Dutch coast where we met some flak, fifteen thousand feet ahead of us we could see lots of activity in the air as we approached the Ruhr. The Ruhr was important for Germans because it was full of heavy industry and so we need to prang it hard. We had on board four thousand pound bomb, shaped like a large cannister, and ten one thousand pound bombs and loads of incendiaries. The Pathfinders were dropping their coloured flares and the Master Bomber told us to bomb a certain colour – I can’t remember which colour it was – anyway we were now approaching the target when all hell was let loose as flak and searchlights were each side of us, we could hear shrapnel hitting the sides of our aircraft, this is the dreaded moment as the skipper opened the bomb doors, at this stage we were unable to manoeuvre: we just had to keep straight and pray. Skipper says to our two gunners, Dave Maver and Ronnie Pritchard, watch out for any night fighters, not that we could do much about it at this stage. The bomb aimer now took over: left, left, steady, right, steady, at this stage the chewing of gum was speeding up, it was sheer terror. Bombs gone says Epi, our bomb aimer. Skipper closes bomb doors and our chewing reduced in intensity. Our pilot banks to starboard and loses height to get out of the way of searchlights and flak, this is another time when night fighters are looking for us. Our navigator gives a new course for the Dutch coast, but we do a dog leg, zigzags to avoid the enemy fighters. We were watching aircraft going down in flames which makes us all a bit nervy, well it’s not like a holiday flight to Tenerife is it! - I said in brackets - We saw a small aircraft to port and a bit above us but we did not think it had been, had seen, had seen us, this was a German aircraft we thought because just twin engines but then he suddenly disappeared, we were in thick cloud and it was raining. Let’s hope we don’t collide with another aircraft. As for me as flight engineer, I was trying to keep a fuel log in the dark and with all the activity going on it was not easy. I kept a note of throttle changes because that makes all the difference to the amount of fuel one uses, plus temperature outside at our height. As we had eight – I’ve got fourteen – as we had eight [emphasis] tanks I didn’t want one to go dry, causing an engine to stop and possibly create an air lock in the system: my name would have been mud. I also kept control of the engines in orders from my skipper. I’m able to tell you that we got back safely to base and I found out later that my petrol calculations were just about right, we landed back at four thirty am, that was six and a half hours. Just over four hundred Lancs and Halifaxes took part and we lost six point one percent of the force, twenty five aircraft. Later we understood that reconnaissance had shown that much of the industry in Duisburg had been destroyed. We lost one aircraft on our squadron. On 27th of June we were due to go to Cologne, so, on 27th June 1943 we were briefed to go to Cologne in the Ruhr, but it was called off at the last moment because of foul weather over target. We briefed again on 28th of June with a slightly different route to try and fool the enemy. Over the Dutch coast the Germans had dropped chandeliers to light up the sky and so we expected to be mauled by the German night fighters. We climbed to eighteen thousand feet hoping to avoid them, but no such luck, a fighter came up on our rear, probably an Me110, a twin-engined fighter. Ronnie, our rear gunner called to the skipper: corkscrew port skip which my pilot did immediately and we went down to ten thousand feet and came up again in the corkscrew to fourteen thousand feet. Tracer bullets had gone just over the top of us at the beginning of the corkscrew, but when we settled down at fourteen thousand feet, we felt we had lost him, a really nasty moment and very nearly the end of us. We pressed on to Cologne and ran in to thick cloud, the Master Bomber told us to bomb a certain colour and we couldn’t see them. we could see some fires below so we dropped out bombs and incendiaries on those fires and hoped for the best. We returned to England mostly in cloud and landed at about five am. We were shocked to learn that forty aircraft failed to return. The next three nights we were on shorter trips to France. Marshalling yards in Paris and a place called Wizernes where they were making these V2s I believe, if I remember rightly and it was heavily defended. Dusseldorf, went to Dusseldorf on 12th of July. Dudsseldorf was another heavily defended place, because all industry, and if you killed people down there, they were probably working in the industry anyway you see. It was a heavily defended town because of the amount of industry there. We went through the usual procedures briefing and a meal et cetera, I think take off was around ten pm. We met flak and searchlights over over France I remember, and even more so as we entered Germany. Our skipper told us, the gunners, to look out for night fighters as they were bound to be operating. Eventually we could see ahead the Pathfinder’s flares and as usual in the Ruhr, a wall flak and searchlights. As flight engineer I had to do several jobs at the same time: keep looking out of the cabin for the position of the searchlights, help the skipper with the engine controls, keep a close watch on the fuel we were using, and write up my log so that I would know when to change the petrol tanks; all this on twelve shillings per day, and as a bonus we were threatened by death at any moment. Ah well, I did volunteer! Yes, one of the raids we went to was Stuttgart, this was another heavily, sorry, have to cut that out, yes, we pressed on to Stuttgart and dropped our bombs on target. We bombed the coloured flares dropped by the Pathfinders, skipper did a sharp turn to starboard and nearly hit another Lancaster, it was only just a few feet away from us, as it climbed in front of us. We climbed to seventeen thousand feet in clear skies when suddenly Ronnie Pritchard, our rear gunner, shouted over the intercon: corkscrew to port skipper and down we went to twelve thousand feet. It was another case of an Me110 was still on our tail, so up we went to starboard and then down again to port. I think we’ve lost him. Another thing, this sort of activity was not good for ones stomach! And also try to work out the fuel we’d used, anyway, I did the best I could. But that was a pretty grim trip because we nearly crashed into this other Lancaster. Yeah, yeah. On 17th of August 1943 we were given a very important mission. Apparently our spy planes had detected some rockets at a place called Peenemunde, in northern Germany. It had been known for some time that the Germans had been producing hard water at Peenemunde, which is used in atomic weapons, but of course these weapons had not been produced by any nation at that time. But the future would have looked bleak if they had been able to carry on their research, the powers that he, told Bomber Harris, oh the powers that be that he had told Bomber Harris that Peenemunde must be obliterated. Almost six hundred bombers, almost six hundred bombers would take part and we expected heavy losses as we felt it must be defended. We flew by night of course, and the flight arrangement was as follows: two hundred Stirlings would go in first at eight thousand feet, followed by four hundred Lancasters at ten thousand feet. The Pathfinders would be there first, dropping flares to light up the area. By good fortune a feint was going on over Berlin, with twin engine Mosquitoes, the Germans thought Berlin therefore was the main target and sent their night fighters there. The Stirlings went in to Peenemunde and dropped their bombs, and then turned for home without any losses. the German night fighters realised their mistake and turned back to Peenemunde just as the Lancasters went in to bomb the place. I remember a great deal of chaos, as aircraft after aircraft was shot down. It was, [sigh] it was very unnerving to see so many Lancasters on fire, we dropped our bombs on the target and fled the area and got back safely. Forty Lancasters - actually it was forty two – forty two Lancasters were shot down that night, ten percent of the force. Analysis later showed the bombing effort had been reasonably successful. Spy planes would keep an eye on the place in case another attack was necessary. My squadron lost one Lancaster out of twelve despatched. On the next night we were on the flight list again. At briefing found we found subject was Bremen. Well, that was fairly cushy compared with Peenemunde. Yeah. At Peenemunde was a very important town for us to destroy because the V2s they were producing would have been ready before D-Day, and you can just imagine what would have happened if that had happened: the D-day wouldn’t have been possible, you know. As it was, on D-Day one never saw a German fighter because they mostly had been destroyed, but Peenemunde was the, the town to get, we never had to go back there because they moved the whole lot to somewhere else in Germany which we kept bombing later on, but that was the most important one for D-Day, was Peenemunde, okay. At a briefing on the 23rd of August 1943, we learned the worst, yes, the worst, yes, it was to be the first big night raid on Berlin, by six hundred and fifty Lancasters and Halifaxes. Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering, had said that no foreign aircraft would be allowed to fly over the capital of the Third Reich, well we’ll have to see if he’s right. We were all rather depressed about this operation as we knew that Berlin was considered to be the most heavily defended of all German towns. We were taken out to the aircraft at nine pm and I remember we sat around the aircraft waiting for start up time and nobody hardly spoke a word. We took off at nine thirty pm and we would be amongst the first wave into the attack. Berlin’s thirty five mile area was dotted with lights, so that it was hard to distinguish the bursts of anti-aircraft shells below from the coloured markers dropped by the Pathfinders. The first thing we had to do was fly through a wall of searchlights, hundreds [emphasis] of them in colours and clusters. Behind all that was an even fiercer light glowing red, green and blue and over there millions of flares hanging in the sky, A huge mass of fires below. If this is Hell, then I have been there. Flak is bursting all around us at fifteen thousand feet, there is one comfort, and that is not hearing the shells bursting outside because of the roar of the four Merlin engines. We flew on and it was like running straight into the most gigantic display of soundless fireworks in the world. The searchlights are coming nearer now all the time. As one cone split then it comes together again. They seem to splay out then stop, then come together again and as they do there’s a Lancaster right in the centre. Skipper puts the nose down, more power he asks, and I increase the throttle and we are pelting along at a furious rate as we are coming out of the searchlight belt more flak is coming up from the minor defences. A huge explosion near our aircraft: it shakes like mad. Skipper asks everybody to report that they are okay. I thought that the aircraft must have been hit somewhere but everything seemed to be working as far as I could tell: engine revs okay, oil pressure okay, petrol gauge okay. Would we get out of this hell alive? Hello skipper, navigator here, half a minute to dropping zone, okay says skipper, bomb doors open, bomb aimer now takes over, okay, steady, right a bit, bombs gone, bomb doors closed, keep weaving skipper, lots of flak coming up, I tell him, going to starboard something hits us, but we don’t know what or where. I report to skipper that a Jerry fighter has just passed over us from port to starboard, our mid-upper gunner also reported a fighter, we keep going out of the main area of searchlights. I take a look at the furious fires below and masses of flak and Pathfinder flares, a mass of other Lancasters and other Halifaxes has to get through. Looking back we can see aircraft going down in flames, thank god we are out of the main firestorm I say to myself. Skipper through the intercom tells everyone to watch out for night fighters as they are bound to be active. I give my log a good check in as we couldn’t be short of fuel at this stage, but everything seems to be okay, the oil pressure was a bit low on two starboard engines, I wondered if flak had damaged them. I report this to our skipper, keep an eye on it he said. Away back over the Baltic, so different to the way we came. There seemed to be flak coming up from all over the place so we are not out of trouble. We knew there were fighters about as they were dropping flares. Suddenly Ronnie, our rear gunner said corkscrew starboard skip, down we went and I fell, I fell out of my seat and hit my head and was stunned for a bit. Up we came to port as tracer skimmed the side of our aircraft, Ronnie took a pot at the German fighter but I don’t think he hit him. We levelled out at eight thousand feet and we were now in cloud and we stayed in it to dodge the fighter. We came out of the cloud over the Channel, oil pressures on starboard engines were getting too low, so it was decided to land at Woodbridge, just on the border of Suffolk, it had a long runway for situations like ours. We landed at five fifteen am after a horrendous night. I thought that Bomber Harris might well obliterate Bomber Command as well as Berlin! Our aircraft had been damaged by flak, including two engines so it was unserviceable. We were taken by coach back to, was this, this is where we went wrong, this is says Wratting Common but it should be Tuddenham I think. The squadron lost another Lancaster, a total of fifty eight heavy bombers were lost that night, fifty eight, and so ended our first trip, and our last I hoped, to Berlin, the big city as it was called. Our aircraft would be out of service for a week, but we were given a new aircraft that had not been flown on ops. Our wireless operator Charlie Higgins didn’t like the idea as he was terribly superstitious, hence the rabbit’s foot in my pocket. Charlie had to come round to the new aircraft, or leave the crew. He came round to it. Right, now this is the crunch, our thirtieth and final operation, but what a momentous time it has been over the last few months: a lot of airmen have died. Once again we were briefed on 28th of August and we were out at the aircraft when it was cancelled. And so back to the de-clothing area, this was always very stressful and our nerves start to give us trouble by a slight shake and very noticeable when holding a cigarette. The 29th of August 1943 was to be our last trip and hopefully we will return. Briefing was at four pm, we all sat down and then stood up when the Group Captain entered the briefing room at four pm. The door then locked, he stood on the stage and said Captain answer for your crew, and beware if you’re not there, you’re in trouble, anybody not there would be in dead trouble. The curtain pulled back and lo and behold the target was Stettin, on the Baltic, a very long trip and so I’ll have to be very accurate with my petrol calculations. Stettin was a large port and apparently the Germans were bringing men and war weapons back from Norway to put to the war in Russia. The idea was for us to blast the ships in port and anything we saw moving. It was going to be a long night with full petrol tanks and loads of bombs, or, no incendiaries, just bombs. Take off at nine pm. Stettin was partly on the way to Berlin, but a bit further to the west and a somewhat longer trip, we hoped the Germans would think we were going to Berlin and send their fighters there. We went through thick cloud at first, but over Germany it was clear skies and we had to watch out for the German fighters. We got caught in searchlights but the skipper managed to weave and corkscrew out of them. Heavy flak, shrapnel shells hitting our aircraft, we dropped our bombs by the reflection of the water, so there were no Pathfinders for this raid. We managed to leave the area safely and flew into the cloud again where it was pouring with rain, better than being attacked by a night fighter when flying in in clear skies. Sadly our Squadron Commander, Squadron Leader Warner failed to return from this op to Stettin, a total of twenty three Lancasters were lost out of three hundred and fifty on the operation. And now my crew sort of split up for a time here, we went on two week post-operational leave. Now, after, I returned to Scotland after some leave and did several weeks as flight engineer instructor. One day, my friend Jack Ralph, a pilot, came up to me and said as his flight engineer had been injured, by shrapnel I believe, would I be willing to do, to be his flight engineer as he only had four operations to do. Jack was somewhat older then I was at the time as he was thirty and I was still nineteen and he had a lot of experience and had earned the DFC. Without thinking of the possible consequences, I said yes. Being so young I didn’t really see the dangers ahead, anyway that was my decision. Jack’s crew accepted me okay and that was the main thing. My first operational briefing with Jack was on 23rd of September 1943, Mannheim, a big industrial town, well in, that was the usual thing; fifteen Lancasters were lost there, and then Hannover, I think we lost an aircraft there. Turn it off just a moment. At this stage in my tour of operations – thirty two to date - I was becoming decidedly jittery, a nervous twitch perhaps. I felt I was getting to the end of what I could take, nevertheless I never showed this in my behaviour, but it was just that I felt it inwardly, after all I was still only nineteen years old. Us bomber chaps often wrote poetry, some have been published and at this moment I would like to quote one of mine. I found it amongst my papers a few years ago, and it was written by me during my tour of operations in 1943. It might seem a bit naive now but it was how I felt at the time. Viz: “What think you airman when you fly so proudly there in heaven’s sky? Do you exalt in your great might as you go onwards through the night? I think of death beneath my wings, and of the load my bomber brings. My spirit flinches from the thought, that of this carnage may come naught. I pray that soon the day will come when at the rising of the sun that man will offer man his hand and peace prevail throughout the land. I face up to my moments’ task, but three things God, of thee I ask: please help my flesh and mind to stand the strain and protect me Lord this once again. And if this cannot be your plan, give me the strength to die a man.” So that. I wasn’t sleeping too well at this particular time, and I had a sort of of foreboding about the future, it was only one more operation to do, strange how the mind works. On the morning of 18th of November, I woke in the usual way and had breakfast. I went to the aircraft and had a chat with the ground engineers. No problem with the engines, there were full tanks, two thousand one hundred and forty gallons and full bomb load. In fact I worked out that our full weight would be way [emphasis] above what it should be, but it was often like that. No chance of survival if we had engine failure on take off. Briefing was at four pm where we found that the target would be Stettin again, on the Baltic coast, a long hard journey ahead as you would know from above. I had been there before. Stettin was a very important town for Germany because it was the embarking point to Norway. Stettin was heavily defended by guns, searchlights and night fighters. At the briefing we found out that we were to use new tactics by flying low over the North Sea, under German radar with a moonlight night and then to sweep across Denmark and up to the Swedish coast and then down to Stettin, hopefully we were told we would hit Stettin from a different angle and take the Germans by surprise. As we left the briefing Jack said to me let’s hope they are right! Take off at nine pm. Fourteen Lancasters from our squadron would take part. We had our supper in the usual way and collected our rations: chocolate and chewing gum. We then collected our flying clothes, harness and parachute. The padre was there to wish us well and safe return. Well that was something to help me anyway. We were taken to the aircraft in the liberty van, as we called it, would take us in to Newmarket, it took us in to Newmarket when we were not flying. We got ourselves into the aircraft and made sure everything was in order. The skipper and I did what we called pre-flight checks, as nothing was left to chance. A very light was fired from the caravan at the end of the runway for take off. We queued up and then our turn came. Skipper opened up the throttles and then I took over to giving him full power as we were overloaded, we sped down the runway, hoping we would make it into the air-and we did. Skipper pulled the aircraft off the ground and did a circuit of the aerodrome, before speeding off and crossing at Cromer and then over the North Sea. We flew at five hundred feet towards Denmark. As we crossed the Danish coast e-boats were firing at us but fortunately missed. We were now on the way to Stettin, we saw one Lancaster crash into a windmill because it much too low. Before I continue I must mention something about Stettin. This town manufactured consumer goods, including cosmetics. At the end of 1943, there were still six million Germans employed in consumer industries. The Armament Minister, Albert Speer, his efforts to cut back consumer output were repeatedly frustrated by Hitler, personal veto. Eva Braun intervened to block an order banning permanent waves and manufacture of cosmetics. Apparently Hitler was so anxious to maintain living standards. Anyway back to our flight. After leaving Denmark we had to climb to fifteen thousand feet, because we were approaching the Swedish coast and they were neutral as far as war was concerned. We were using our new radar equipment – H2S – so our navigator was able to pick up the town of Stettin. We flew over the southern tip of Sweden and apparently the authorities complained about this to Churchill through the Swedish Embassy. We now flew south and I could see heavy flak ahead so I knew we would be in for a pasting. We could see the Pathfinders were there this time. flares and the Master Bomber was telling us to bomb a certain coloured flares. Suddenly we got caught in two cones of searchlights, but skipper Jack Ralph acted quickly and down we went to starboard and we escaped. But was a close run thing again. Flak was bursting all around. We dropped bombs okay on a mass of flames below us. We left the target area which looked like hell below. After a short time the flak seemed to quieten, so we knew night fighters were in the area. Suddenly a loud shout from rear gunner on the intercom, corkscrew port skipper, and down we went, but unfortunately the Messerschmidt 110 night fighter caught us underneath our aircraft. The tracer bullets through, ripped through the underbelly and caught our port inner engine, which caught fire. We also had a fire in the fuselage, just beyond the mid upper gunner. The hydraulic oil that feeds the turret had spilled into the fuselage and that was what was on fire. The turret in fact became useless. Skipper had brought the aircraft out of the corkscrew and levelled off at about eight thousand feet. The fighter did not follow us down. So, what were our problems at this stage of our flight? A – port inner engine on fire. B – fire in the fuselage. C – what damage had been done underneath us? D – mid upper turret not now working. C, sorry, E – losing height and another three and a half hours to home base. F – outside temperature minus forty degrees centigrade possibly too cold to bale out. G – if we are attacked again no chance of survival on three engines. H – have we enough fuel to get home? So the action we took was this: 1 – my skipper feathered the propeller on the duff engine. He operated the fire extinguisher in the engine fortunately the fire went out. All this has to be done within seconds of course. I attached an oxygen bottle and my mask and took a fire extinguisher with me. I found my way down the fuselage to the fire, which was looking quite fierce, especially everywhere was dark. I connected up my intercom and told skipper what I had found. Should we bale out he said? No, I said I think I can put the fire out – [wry chuckle] I had not brought my parachute with me from my position by the pilot! It was stacked up there. I didn’t think I had any chance of survival if the fuselage broke up anyway. Anyway I played the extinguisher on to the fire but it didn’t all go out. The aircraft was full of smoke but fortunately we all had our masks on and I used my official goggles for my eyes. There was some tarpaulin or something nearby and so I placed it on the fire but some of the flames shot up and I burnt both of my hands. I struggled with the tarpaulin and the fire went out. My hands were very painful though as you can imagine, but I wondered at that time whether the airframe had been weakened by the heat. I told the skipper what I had done and what I had, and that I had painful hands. Thank god you have put it out, he said. I crawled back to my station by the pilot. He was trying to keep the aircraft at eight thousand feet, we were then on three engines. Somehow or another I had to write my log to see how much petrol we had left. The navigator said he would be back at base, we would be back at base in three and three quarter hours, keeping in mind that the aircraft was slower on three engines, but of course only three engines were burning fuel. I worked out that our speed at that time, our height and more propeller revolutions and no more corkscrewing we would have thirty minutes fuel left on landing. My hands were now very painful but there was nothing I could do about it as we had no creams to put on them or water to plunge them in to. I kept thinking to myself, why did I volunteer for another four operations? Well, here we go, back to base. We were at eight thousand feet and flying through thick cloud and it is raining hard, we are all wearing our masks and goggles as there was still a lot of smoke in the aircraft. I wondered if any damage had been done to the aircraft framework. Was it weakened in any way? Best not to be negative, I must be positive about getting us back to base. The skipper was aware of the fuel situation, and kept the engine power to a minimum, keeping in mind that we only had three engines working. After two hours we came out of the thick cloud and all the buffeting, we were now over Holland and we could see lots of flak near the coast, so we needed to avoid that. A big aircraft flew near us and we thought it was another Lancaster, we hoped. Our navigator picked up a couple of towns on the new radar H2S, very useful because we couldn’t see anything below due to haze. I checked the fuel situation but it was difficult writing as my hands were so painful. The navigator told the skipper and myself that with our speed and outside wind we would be at base at about one hour forty five minutes. I began to sweat at that bit of information as it was longer than he had given some time before. Anyway, I worked out my fuel usage and then told my skipper that we had two hours twenty minutes fuel left so we should make it okay if something, if nothing else happened. But fortunately nothing else did happen, we got through the flak on the coast of Holland, and we were now over the North Sea headed for England and hopefully safety. Skipper got in touch with control, with the control on my squadron and told them of our situation. Would the wheels come down? We still didn’t know. Skipper was given emergency landing procedures so we crossed the East Anglian coast. We operated the landing gear and it came down okay and locked itself in the down position. In one hour fifty minutes we were down and so my petrol calculations were spot on. At this stage I was beginning to feel a bit faint what with the pain, considerable stress and smoke. When we landed most of the smoke disappeared. I got out of the aircraft at five thirty am, eight and a half hour flight and sat on the ground, exhausted. Skipper Jack Ralph lit me a cigarette, which was wonderful. Suddenly everything everywhere was quiet except for the singing of birds in some nearby trees, the dawn chorus. Two aircraft failed to return to our squadron out of fourteen at take off. Though later we found out that one aircraft had landed at another aerodrome due to damage to their aircraft. Thirty aircraft failed to return all told. I believe four hundred Lancasters went to Stettin. Jack Ralph’s tour off thirty had ended and I had done a total of thirty four operations. I was still only nineteen. What happened to me next? Once I was returned to base, well, I was then taken to the first aid area and my hands were cleaned. I was then taken to the hospital at Bury St Edmunds where I stayed for two days. My hands were treated there and it was found that the burns were first degree and so I wouldn’t need any skin grafts: that was the best news I could receive. I forget what they did, but I remember my hands being wrapped up with bandages and lint. Within three days I was back on the squadron, where I was put on light duties. The bandages were removed after two weeks and I believe, but my hands were very sore and still a bit painful, but being exposed to the air was going to be helpful. After a few weeks I received a call to see the Station Commander at certain time of day. My memory defeats me, I was a bit nervous about this, but of course I went. The Group Captain asked me about my hands, he said that I had done a wonderful job. Now I was told two wonderful things to cheer me up: first offered a commission in the Royal Air Force,, wow, me, an officer in the RAF. He told me all about it and what I would have to do as my extra duties. Also he said to go and see the Station Adjutant as he would give me all the details about buying my uniform and the money. He said I would have to start a bank account once I was an officer, just think of it, me born in a council house, I left school at fourteen and now I’d become an officer in the RAF. An even greater thrill was that I had been recommended for a decoration, namely the Distinguished Flying Medal, for helping to save the aircraft and enabling the whole crew to get back to England. That was definitely the icing on the cake. My skipper Jack Ralph was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross because he displayed leadership as he was an officer, I was a flight, yes I was a flight sergeant, I had a medal. I would meet up with Jack Ralph again in my career. Within a week I was up in London to buy my clothes. [Unlcear] Well I was informed after a time that they were wanting Stirling crews at Tuddenham, my old base. As you will have read above, I had already done some special duties during my tour and so I jumped at the idea and made an important, an appointment to see our squadron commander. He said I don’t know anything about it. Of course, of course that’s what they always say. Anyway he did check up and found it was true. I got an immediate posting back to my bomber station and I met up with my, part of my old crew, so I joined up with them. While there we got a couple of gunners, rear and mid upper, and a wireless operator. I told Doug and Dick about my adventure into the fire what I did on my last trip. I did some revision on the workings of the Stirling as I had not flow them some time. We also did some circuits and bumps. Early 1944 a briefing was arranged and I believe there were twelve crews all together. We were informed that we would have to do a lot of practice low flying over the Norfolk Flats – no hills anywhere - we were also told that the job would entail flying on moonlit nights and between five hundred and a thousand feet. Of course our particular crew had already done a few of these trips as we had already early in our tour so we knew what to expect. It was clear that D-Day was coming soon and so they wanted us, wanted to get as much more, as much equipment as possible to the resistance people, agents were being dropped in France at night from the Lysander aircraft. We started our flying practice during the day, low flying over the flats of Norfolk. We hoped that Dicks navigation and map reading would be as good as hitherto. Well he seemed to find his way around the flats okay. We did many days of this type of flying. I think they thought we were up there having fun, as for me I would have to get my petrol calculations right as I wouldn’t, it wouldn’t do to have an engine failure at five hundred feet, which is what we were going to have to do. We did low flying over long periods to get it absolutely right at night. The night came for us to do our first mission and operation. It was a full moon and clear sky on 21st of April ’44. The technique for crossing the French coast was to cross at, was to cross at eight thousand or nine thousand feet to avoid a heavily defended coast. When our skipper thought it was safe he descended to about five hundred feet. I must say that we actually went all the way down the French coast, not over Pas de Calais because the Germans were still there, so went down the French coast, round Cherbourg, down to Boulogne. It was just below Boulogne where we crossed. When our skipper thought it was safe, he descended to about five hundred feet so we’re over the coast and down we went. At five hundred feet however, all hell broke loose. There seemed to be a gun firing dead ahead and to our starboard. Skipper flung the aircraft to port and he couldn’t do much because we were so low down; we were hit on the starboard side and underneath. Fortunately the tracer was small calibre so not a lot of damage. But there was a hole in the starboard fuselage and a hole near the skipper’s foot. We think [clock chimes] we were hit underneath too, but we were all okay. To the port side of us we could see a Stirling being hit at very low altitude, maybe about two hundred feet and then crashed, fortunately the crew of that aircraft survived and were taken prisoner. Well we pressed on, very low level, as low as two hundred feet at times, towards the eastern side of France, near Lyon. We followed roads and rivers and contours of the land, we knew that we could easily get lost, and some crews did. We had a good navigator and I did a lot of map reading myself when I wasn’t watching the petrol situation, as I said before. I couldn’t let a tank go dry and an engine stall at two hundred to five hundred feet. Anyway, we arrived at the area and the next thing was to look for a torchlight shone by one of the French Resistance, Maquis. If they were caught by the Germans they were usually tortured for information about others and then shot and of course we would easily have been shot down and too low for parachutes. We found the light after circulating the area. I then went to the back of the aircraft and opened the trap door in the floor. On instructions from the pilot I pushed out the big boxes which were on parachute and as we were at five hundred feet they landed reasonably safely, I hoped. After that we made our way to the coast. That was another difficult part because if we crossed at five hundred feet, we could have been shot up by German e-boats which were all along the coast. Climbing to seven thousand to eight thousand meant that we would be easy prey for German fighter planes, but we did climb to eight thousand feet and got over the coast safely and we arrived at Tuddenham, our base, exactly eight hours later, but the undercarriage wouldn’t come down. We tried all the usual methods, like thumping the solenoid and pulling the wires, but nothing happened. I might have mentioned it earlier, just to say that as the Stirling everything, oh yes I have mentioned it by electricity, in the Lancaster it was hydraulics. The final thing to do was for me to go half way down the fuselage where there was a motor winding gear. I asked the skipper to switch off the undercarriage switch on the dashboard and then I started winding. I knew that if I had to wind it all the way down it would be five hundred and forty turns, phew! Anyway, I wound twelve times and I asked the skipper to trip the switch down and wonderful, the undercarriage started to descend and it went all the way down, and locked. What a nightmare, had it not come down and locked we would have had to belly land. We landed safely and we reported to briefing. We mentioned that a Stirling was shot down; it was reported later that it was David [unclear]. The ground engineers on our aircraft found that the undercarriage gears had been damaged by the coastal gunfire so we were lucky to get the undercarriage down. Well two nights later we were due to go again, when the moon was high, so.
CJ: So Colin, after your ten missions on Special Duties, what happened to you next?
CD: Well, I was an instructor for a time, which I got bored with; you had to have a sprog flight engineer. But by July, er, no, August, August 1944, these V2s and V1s were becoming a bit of menace. And so, they’re clever people, they said these are not operations, cause there are no German fighters about but what we want you to do is take over a sprog engineer to train him, and go behind a Mosquito. The Mosquito went in first, okay, he had this new radar called Oboe, and that was marvellous, picked out different places there, and when he dropped his bombs, the idea was we dropped ours. I think there were about four Lancasters at a time went with this Mosquito, and so that’s what we did. So we did that for, er, some time I think. I’m still on aren’t I? Yes. And then eventually that came to an end and I went back on instructors again. I went up to Leconfield, up in Yorkshire, goodness knows what I went up there for, cause I can’t remember I ever did anything! I came back again anyway, to Mildenhall. I was just really an odd bod, an instructor, that’s what I was and I was called an instructor. Oh, yes, eventually, before I went on to Transport Command, we had a, there were aircraft called a York, it was a passenger aircraft, and they wanted to find out what the centre of gravity was because of all the weight of the luggage and everything else on board. So that was my job, with a senior chap. We had all these, all these Yorks in a hangar, several of them, with the tails out, finding the centre of gravity. I can’t remember what I did now, but we found it and I think that did the job and I was made a flight lieutenant for a time, while I was on, to give me some authority. Wasn’t that nice of them! There we are, that’s what I did. But at the end, right at the end, two weeks before the end I went on Manna from Heaven. And there we are, I’ll show you a picture of that. And what we did, these little food parcels, there was sort of some rubberised, they were very good at doing things like that, I think it was probably Americanised, but rubber stuff and all these sweets, powdered milk, powdered egg and all that was inside each one of those. No parachute or anything like this. We were very low, I think we were two or three hundred feet when we went in, and they were warned to keep away because if one hits you it could knock you out you see. There’s another one coming in, another one back there. This went on for several weeks. It was known that some Germans were firing on the Yorks as they flew over, no Lancasters, we were on Lancasters then, Lancasters. They were firing on the Lancasters and the colonel was warned [emphasis] if you allow that to got on you’ll be up in court, you know. So I think it stopped after. The Dutch have never forgotten it. If you speak to a Dutchman now, they’ll tell you: the RAF did us a good thing. I think I’ve got something here from a Dutchman if you’d like to, hang on, here we are, shall I read it. After the war and after Manna from Heaven food parcels arrived, a letter from a Dutch person. “We shall never forget the nights when your squadrons passed us in the dark on the way to Germany, the mighty noise was like music for us: it told us about happier days to come. Your passing planes kept us believing in coming victory, no matter what we had to endure. We have suffered much but Britain and the RAF did not disappoint us, so we have to thank you and the British nation for our living in peace today.” So there we are, that was nice, wasn’t it. So I think -
CJ: So towards the end of the war Colin, where did you go next?
CD: In August of 1945, we as a crew of five with Jack as a captain, Jack Ralph, joined 51 Squadron at Leconfield, near Minster in Yorkshire. We were to have a period of training there on Stirlings, yes Stirlings, our old wartime friend. The powers that be were so short of passenger aircraft that they took the gun turrets out of the Stirling and put some seats down the length of the aircraft. The whole idea was to bring back servicemen from the Far East, including hopefully, some Japanese prisoners of war who had a dreadful time as prisoners. I think the Stirling had about forty seats, down the length of the fuselage with a galley for food and toilet facilities. The aircraft would fly at about eight thousand feet, no oxygen, and so it would have been quite cold and miserable. I remember saying to myself, that if the Japs don’t kill them, then perhaps the Stirling would. But at least they would be coming home and after the business of the Japanese camps I felt they would put up with anything. There was my crew, there were so many pilots back from Canada after training, and the war was over, and of course missing the war, authorities didn’t know what to do with them. Well many of them were trained as stewards, they didn’t like that really, to look after the passengers, to feed them et cetera and so we had one in our crew, but he wasn’t very happy about it. The time came for us to make our first overseas flight. We took off from Leconfield on 20th of August, and made for Stoney Cross, an airfield near the New Forest in Hampshire. We picked up all sorts of equipment, including a refrigerator which was fitted at the rear for use when we picked up passengers. On 22nd of August we took off for Luqa in Malta, which took seven hours thirty five minutes. On landing we were amazed at the bomb damage, we just wondered how they survived. We took off the next day for Castel Bonita, which was an airfield in Libya, North Africa. The temperature in the sun on arrival was one hundred and nineteen degrees Fahrenheit. [Laugh] Phew! We were able to have a quick look at Tripoli, and we were amazed at the number of ships sunk in the harbour. The ships were bombed when the Germans were there in 1942 ‘43. On the next day we took off for Tel Aviv in Palestine; this took us six hours thirty minutes. I was very impressed by, with Tel Aviv, a wealthy town and populated mostly by Jews from all over Europe. We had time to spend an afternoon on their lovely beach, but we were pestered by beach sellers who tried to sell us anything they thought we would wealth, they thought we were wealthy like the population. At that particular time there were battles going on in Jerusalem, so it was out of bounds to us RAF. Their troubles are still going on today, sadly. I mention above about the wealth in Tel Aviv, being a Jewish town, but just outside there was a village called Tel Avivski which was populated by Arabs, who were growing lemons and oranges. Their homesteads were very poor indeed, and what a contrast to Tel Aviv. The next day we took off for Basra, in Iraq which was very much in the news in recent years. The aerodrome was called Shaibah which was outside Basra. Shaibah was a terribly hot place. It was always between a hundred and twenty degrees Fahrenheit. It had a good population - of flies! The billets were poor and so it was a good thing we were only there one night. Tea had a peculiar taste and the food wasn’t terribly appetising. Have I painted a nice picture I say to myself. I must say that the people were very friendly and of course this was 1945 and maybe they aren’t so friendly today. Any airman ground staff could only stay in Shaibah a maximum of six months of the year because after some of them started to go mental called Shaibah blues. As flight engineer I had to supervise the refuelling of our aircraft. They used what they called a bowser and we just hoped it was filled with a hundred octane fuel to give us plenty of lift and power. At least we could get cold beer in the officers mess, just like in Ice Cold in Alex. The next day, 24th, we took off for Karachi. The badge I have on my, on my coat that I had on just now was bought in Karachi, in Pakistan although in 1945 fortunately it was still in India. The aerodrome was called Meri, Moripoor, this aerodrome was quite modern compared to Shaibah. We would be there for two days and so we had the opportunity to visit Karachi. I quite liked this town, but like all Indian town it was full of markets selling just about everything. Of course you never paid the price they asked and so quite a bit of time was spent bargaining with the vendor but he made you comfortable by giving you something soft to sit on then bring you a glass of coca cola which fell apart, no sarsaparilla, sorry, a coco cola or a glass of sarsaparilla, not so nice. I remember buying a pair of shoes which fell apart in a few days and an Indian wool rug which was very nice, I sold it at home for a good profit. The main street in Karachi was called Elphinstone Street, named after Lord Elphinstone who lived in Hastings and there’s a street named after him there too! This was the end of our first flight abroad which took us four days. On 27th of August we flew back to Stoney Cross, many passengers, mainly army personnel and they didn’t like the cold in the Stirling after being in a hot country, still I am sure they were pleased to get home at last. When we arrived back at Stoney Cross we found that we had been posted to Stradishall in Suffolk. This was, and still is, a pre-war RAF station and so at least we had food, accommodation and a batman. The batman, I had was shared with two officers in separate rooms. It was jolly good because he did lots of jobs for us, cleaning our shoes, looking after our laundry and making sure we had everything we wanted. The real benefits of being an officer! The downside was that we had to do Orderly Officer duties from time to time. One of the duties, one of the duties was checking on the food in the general mess. As I went on the Sergeant of the Day which called out ‘any complaints,’ usually there was silence but on one occasion one of the erks said, I have been given very little meat, sir. It looked very small so I got the cooks to give him another slice of meat. I think the erk had eaten quite a bit before I got it, got there. Of course the Orderly Officer was actually in charge of the RAF station when the Group Captain was away at night time too. So it was quite a responsible job if anything went wrong at the station. We had parties there, with plenty of girlfriends, lots of fun with booze. I think we’ll leave it at that now.
CJ: So on these long trips Colin, with Transport Command did you meet any interesting people?
CD: Well one of the people I did meet was at Cairo. We stopped at a hotel called the Heliopolis, Heliopolis Palace and I think we were on the third floor. Now, King Farouk, he somehow or other he didn’t like the British, I don’t know why, I don’t know why. But he would, you would see him belting through the streets in the middle of two guards in a jeep type of vehicle, you know and be crouched in there. We actually met him actually, at a reception at Helioplolis Palace and he sort of didn’t want to really say too much to us, us chaps chaps. He wasn’t a good leader, he liked pornography, he had loads of pornography, you wouldn’t believe it, stuff he had. Well eventually he was ousted of course, wasn’t he. I think it was Nasser came in after him, wasn’t it. He was dead scared of travelling around, he thought he’d be shot any moment, you know, they didn’t like him. So that’s King Farouk, I’ve met a king, okay.
CJ: So when did you leave the RAF Colin? And what did you do after that?
CD: Well I was there during that very cold winter and it soon after that actually. By May, May 1947, May 1947 I said farewell to my friends at Lyneham, I took the train to Preston in Lancashire and that was my demob station, okay. So I came out and there I am, and that’s what, various documents including identity card, ration book and some money, so that’s what I got for putting my life on the line. But still, it was better than nothing. I’ve now signed off from the RAF and I was given a sort of dowry, but I can’t remember how much it was, but I don’t think I was terribly rich. I came back to London to stay with my, an aunt for a time. I stayed at, I stayed with my grandmother in Beckenham. She had a son that was employed at the Standard Bank of South Africa and I was very friendly with him, because he played cricket and all that, in his job, and he said how about getting into shipping, the Union Castle Line near me, where I am, I know they’re looking for young men. I said yeah, that sounds interesting to me, shipping, well I don’t want to fly again and, and that’s what he did. I went up for an interview and I got the job. I think it was about two hundred and fifty pounds a year. [Laugh] I thought you see, I could train perhaps as a purser eventually and I wouldn’t mind going out to South Africa and stay out there for a bit as I was single, as easy as it was then. So that’s what I did and I started 15th May I think it was, 15th of May. First up yes, I would be employed in an office down, oh I was employed in an office down in the East India Docks for a time, Blackwall, yes, at a salary of two hundred and fifty pounds per annum. I bought a month’s season ticket on the Southern Railway at the cost of one pound fourteen shillings and that would take me from Elmer’s End to Beckenham or Cannon Street in the city. I used it seven days a week, I used it at weekends. Arrived at the office on the first day at nine fifteen am and met up with the manager at the docks office. Really old buildings, it’s real east, sorry about that, just chuck it aside, sorry. Yes, it was very, sort of worn out buildings there, everything was sort of archaic really, you know. Big, it had a big shelf to write on. And a stool. And if you’ve ever seen any Charles Dickens films, just like that really. Goes back to those days you see.
CJ: And what was your job there?
CD: Just as a clerk, to start with, just as a clerk, did a lot of writing, oh and I got the job of going down to the docks to meet the ships, with a senior man first, but then eventually I went down myself, to the West India Dock, King George the Fifth Dock, Queen Victoria Dock in London, don’t exist any more of course, and Southampton went down to Southampton. Yes. That was the most interesting part of being with the Union Castle actually, going down to the ships, so I enjoyed that. Now eventually we were hearing rumours you see, that oh they united with the Clan Line, that would have been a few years after and eventually we could see that the end of the line was coming because people were flying to South Africa and East Africa. We didn’t have an empire any more, you know, Uganda, Tanganyika and all these of places, so I decided I think I’d better change; I had two young daughters at the time and I thought I’d better think about changing. So I got a job with Beecham Research Laboratories in their offices. I did a few jobs outside in hospitals and took on that job, in Kent, that’s why I’m down here. I used to visit the consultants, so that was interesting. Yeah.
CJ: So after the war did you manage to keep in touch with any of your old crew?
CD: Yes I did. I was the secretary, we used to have reunions up at Tuddenham, Tuddenham and there’s a building there that we used to use, it was more convenient than Mildenhall really, although we used to go to Mildenhall. But I was the secretary, so I did the newsletters, it was great and yes, I was given a glass bowl at the end which is upstairs. And curiously those eventually died off and that’s very sad.
CJ: How do you feel Bomber Command veterans were treated after the war, for example by the government?
CD: We were treated very badly. We were treated very badly. Churchill never thanked us, he thanked every other, every other side of the war, Army, Navy, Coastal Command, but not Bomber Command, Fighter Command, but not Bomber Command, never Bomber Command, and yet he was the one that said early part of the war we will bomb every town in Germany and make them pay for what they’re doing to us. That’s what he said, you know, and that’s wanted us to do. But it all came to a head with Dresden, didn’t it. And of course that wasn’t Bomber Harris’ idea at all, he didn’t want to do it because it was too far for his crews, it’s really the Russian general out there. He, he told Eisenhower that the town was full of German troops and weapons, you see. And he said would you, could Bomber Command bomb the place. Eisenhower got on to Churchill and Churchill got on to Bomber Harris and Bomber Harris said well it’s just too far for my troops, I don’t want to do it. You’ve got the order to do it, you must find a way of doing it, so that they get there and back. That’s, you know, that’s the sort of attitude he had you see. So, it came about and of course it was found that it was mainly full of refugees rather than troops, so you know, but that’s the one, if you mention Bomber Command, that’s what people mention. What about Dresden, you know. But it’s no different to any other town, what about towns in England? And if he’d had his way V2s would have obliterated London completely. So yes, I don’t think we, it’s only since we’ve had the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park that things have softened quite a bit now. People, when they hear I’ve been in Bomber Command are quite impressed, you know cause there’s not many of us about are there. So I think the attitude has changed a bit, but I was a great admirer of Churchill you know, during the war, he gave us that feeling of we were going to win, that’s what we wanted really, someone behind us, but he never stayed on at the end. I could never understand why really, never understood why. The Queen Mother always supported us and I went to the, the church in the Strand, what’s the name of that church in the Strand, I can’t remember it, anyway it’s the RAF, it’s the RAF church and it was Bomber Harris’ monument that was being built there, next to Dowding, the two of them there you see. And you wouldn’t believe it, all these layabouts were shouting at us: murderers. The Queen Mother she always supported us and said take no notice of them, I was standing right next to her, actually, take no notice of them. One chap there had got his uniform on, had red, red paint thrown over him you know, that’s how we were treated. Yeah. It was pretty grim really. And the police didn’t do much about it really, they’re just yobs he says, what can you do?
CJ: But on the other hand I gather you’ve been honoured by the French.
CD: Yes, absolutely. I have also at our do on Tuesday night I said I want to send a toast to the President of France, President Macron. So I don’t know if he ever got the message but I you’ve read the letter, yes.
CJ: This is the letter that confirms that you’ve been made a Chevalier of the Legion d’Honeur.
CD: That’s right, Nationale, Legion d’Honeur. First introduced by Napoleon in 1802 and used extensively during the Battle of Waterloo, 1815. He used it for his highest gallantry award. So whether it’s still used as a high gallantry award I don’t know. It wasn’t used in the second world war because they gave in you see right at the start. But it was used in the First World War, yeah.
CJ: So what else keeps you busy nowadays?
CD: The garden! Try to. Well I belong to Probus. I belong to, I’m the honorary president, honorary president of the Royal British Legion, in Tenterden. Church too, I go to church so I made lots and lots of friends there. We have different little dos from time to time. I go to the day centre here on a Tuesday, that’s tomorrow. They come and pick me up, they have lunch there.
CJ: You’re living in Tenterden and there’s a heritage railway I think you had some involvement.
CD: Oh Kent and East Sussex Railway! Oh yes! I’d forgotten about that. In 1967, we came to live here in 1966 you see, and in 1967 well we heard that there was a railway coming along, didn’t know much about it then, down station road, so we thought we’d go and have a look and they had a couple of little engines down there, one was called Hastings and there was another one down there as well. And I went to the meeting, they had meetings to try to get the railway started somehow. Oh, the rows that went on! You know, between the secretary and the president, and the chairman, had different views from each other, you know. They were told: if you don’t get your act together you’ll never run a railway. Of course you wouldn’t, not like that. But eventually it all settled down but interesting meetings. I’ve still got [unclear[, upstairs, amazing!
CJ: You were volunteering on the railway, you were helping?
CD: Yes, I did a signals course in 1968 I think, ‘69 something like that, ‘69, nothing like what they do today, it’s much more. But then they said we really need somebody in the booking office to get it started, so course I’m married, two children, you can’t spend too much time. Anyway, I took it on. I ordered these little tickets, cardboard tickets as you push in the machine: boom boom. It puts the date on it, you know, that’s what it was. Quite cheap as well. At that stage, 1974 it opened, 1974. Bill Deedes came down, he opened it. Just went as far as Rolvenden, that’s as far as we could get. It took another two or three years to get to Wittersham Road. Ted Heath, oh yeah, he came and opened it, Ted Heath, yeah, and to Bodiam and Northiam, so it took many many years, it was quite a few years after. Opened in 1974, about ‘88 something like that I think, it got to Bodiam. The Lottery I think paid for it, paid for part of that between Northiam and Bodiam. But they were always short of money, you know, no matter what. A new boiler costs at least ten thousand pounds you see, for an engine, everything is so costly now, I’m afraid. So that was my job. So I did do things, I didn’t just sit at home doing nothing!
CJ: Well, you’ve certainly led an interesting life, Colin, and thanks very much for talking to us today.
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Interview with Colin Deverell
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-07-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADeverellCRE190722, PDeverellCRE1901
Format
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01:38:13 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Deverell was born in Croydon. Upon leaving school, he worked for Oliver Typewriter Company, where he gained engineering skills to become an amateur rigger for Imperial Airways, before finding employment with Rollaston Aircraft Services in 1939. His mother was killed in a bombing on Christmas Day 1940, motivating him to join the Royal Air Force in 1941 and train as a flight engineer. Deverell completed thirty operations based at RAF Wratting Common and RAF Tuddenham. He details the engineering differences between Stirlings and Lancasters and recollects the events of operations to Kiel, Lorient, Duisburg, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart, Peenemünde, Berlin, and Szczecin. He then completed a further four operations, filling in for a crew with an injured flight engineer. On his thirty-fourth operation to Szczecin, they were attacked and he burnt his hands extinguishing a fire on board. By 19, Deverell was promoted to flight lieutenant and awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal. In 1944, he undertook ten special operations that required low-flying to release boxes of equipment according to light signals from the French Resistance. In 1945, he took part in Operation Manna, before joining 51 Squadron to return servicemen from the Far East on converted Stirlings. Finally, he recalls his career following demobilisation in 1947, the treatment of Bomber Command, and attending reunions at Tuddenham. As the Honorary President of the Royal British Legion in his hometown of Tenterden, Deverell has also been awarded the Legion d’Honneur.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Anne-Marie Watson
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Croydon
England--Suffolk
France
France--Lorient
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Stuttgart
Poland
Poland--Szczecin
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940-07-10
1940-08-15
1940-12-25
1941
1942
1943-06-27
1943-08-17
1943-08-23
1943-08-29
1943-09-23
1944
1945-08
1946
1947-05
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
51 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
H2S
Lancaster
Me 110
Mosquito
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Wratting Common
recruitment
Resistance
searchlight
Stirling
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/688/10096/ABaptisteDMM170504.2.mp3
1dc27df23af9a2bfa31f201bae8fd069
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Baptiste, Daphne
D M M Baptiste
D Baptiste
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Daphne Baptiste (b. 1921) and a wedding album. She worked as a civil servant in the air Ministry.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Daphne Baptiste and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Baptiste, DMM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Thursday the 4th of May 2017 and I’m in Epsom with Daphne Baptiste who experienced the war as a civilian and married an Army officer later on in the war. But Daphne, what are your earliest recollections of life?
DB: My earliest recollections are, date from when I was four years old and I can remember I hadn’t started school, my mother was on her knees in our little house in Becontree. She was washing the kitchen floor. She had the bucket and a mop there and was on her knees at the time and suddenly we heard two loud bangs and I rushed to her side, a four year old frightened of these two loud bangs. And I said to her, ‘What’s that? What’s that?’ And she said, ‘Shhh. Just be quiet and I will tell you in a moment.’ And that’s when I had my first history lesson and she told me about the First World War and how we now respected people who had given their lives in the First World War and remembered them on November the 11th each year to give them the respect that they deserved. That’s my earliest memory. My other earliest memory is being taken to hospital with diphtheria. Again, I was four years old and my mother had lost her own brother when he was two and a half years old with diphtheria. It was a serious illness and you can imagine how distraught the family were at the thought that I also might die from this children’s serious illness. I didn’t fortunately. Obviously. And, but I came out after seven weeks in hospital not having had any visitors other than my father standing outside the large ward window looking at me as he cycled from Becontree up to the City of London to join his fire station where he was on duty at that time. That would be 1925 I suppose and [pause] but I came out of hospital unable to walk. My parents had to hire a little old pushchair and took me away on holiday with the rest of the family and, and I soon regained the ability to walk but just for a while that was the result of diphtheria.
CB: So, what did your father do as a job?
DB: My father was a fireman. He had been in the Navy for two years at the start of the First World War. He’d been invalided out with an injury. He’d been crushed by some machinery I think in the engine room and invalided out. He wanted to marry my mother. They had met and he wanted to marry her and she wouldn’t marry him until he had a job so he joined the London Fire Brigade. She wouldn’t marry him still until her brother could come home from the Army. This was First World War. Her brother was on the Somme, fighting in the Somme and she used to tell us when we were children that she prayed every night of her life that her brother would get a blighty one which meant a slight wound. A small wound. Enough to bring him home. And he did. He was wounded in the arm and he came home and he was able to be, he was able to give her away at her wedding to my father. So, and my father stayed in the London Fire Brigade all through the war. The First World War. Rescued children from a burning building. We think probably set on fire by German Zeppelins. We’re not sure about that but they were certainly active at that time and he rescued six children one by one from this burning building. The adults and children on the ground floor were killed in that fire but he managed to get six children out from the first floor and was given the medal of the OBE after the First World War in recognition of bravery, gallantry which was a cause of pride in the family at the time.
CB: So then in the interwar years while you and your siblings were young what was happening then?
DB: With my father and his career? He stayed in the Fire Service and I can’t think which particular year that would be, nineteen, late 1920s possibly he was promoted to be in charge of a fire station. And because he had had even two years experience in the Navy they gave him the Fire Boat Station at Battersea Bridge. On the corner of Battersea Bridge, and so we the family all moved to Battersea. Lived on the bridge, on the corner of the bridge there and had opportunities to go on the fire boats and see what went on there. And then seven years after that he, a new Fire Brigade Headquarters was built just by Lambeth Bridge opposite Millbank and the Houses of Parliament and he was given command of the fire boats there and remained there until his retirement. Right through the war he was in charge of the fire boats from Westminster to Chiswick. Had a very lively war. They were not only trying to deal with fires along by the riverside, the docks and, and the oil fires but also they were often called out to relay water from the Thames even up to two miles because the engines couldn’t always get through the roads. The roads were too heavily bombed. And so that certainly happened when there were fires at Piccadilly. I think that was possibly one that a couple of miles of hose laying. I suppose a man could get through guiding the hoses through. I’m not sure how it happened but [pause] but it did happen. And he was allowed to retire, 1944 when the worst of the raids were over although we were still having V-1 and V-2 raids but not so frequently as during the war we had raids every night. And when we came up out of the shelters of the Fire Brigade Headquarters the shelters were simply bunk beds that were provided for us in the basement and we would see the firemen running through the basement to where ever their appliance was. Their, their engines or whatever. We thought that was quite exciting when we were teenagers I suppose, one has to admit. But, but it was, it was a very lively time. We understood that because the Fire Brigade Headquarters had been built on a raft, I think that’s a building term, right by the river every time bombs fell in the river and they did, they were dropped in the river. That was a guiding light for German bombers very often especially if there was a moon and bombs would be dropped in the river and the building, the whole building, nine floors would shake but we didn’t ever have one broken window because it just moved. The vibration.
CB: So, he was looking after the river between Westminster and Chiswick.
DB: Yes.
CB: A lot of the bombing was further east.
DB: Oh yes.
CB: To what extent was he drawn in to that?
DB: Oh yes. In fact, he, no this is going back through the war. He almost went to Dunkirk but the Fire Brigade Headquarters people decided that they would send over to Dunkirk the fire boats as far as Blackfriars or Cherry Garden. I’m not sure which was the final one. But that they must retain some fire boats in London in case bombing started there. It hadn’t started there then and so my father wasn’t sent there but, but certainly he was at the docks, he was at the oil fires and, and where ever they were called upon to go and they very often drew all the fire engines and fire boats to all over different parts of London. I can remember there was Raphael Tuck’s Christmas Greetings Cards building next to us. Next to the Fire Brigade Headquarters. That was burned to the ground and people could be quite rude about that and say it was next to the Fire Brigade Headquarters what were they doing when that building was on fire? But every engine was out, every fire boat was out dealing with fires at different places. They certainly were called upon to travel quite widely in, in and around London.
CB: So which floor were you on? Living.
DB: We lived on the sixth floor. Sixth floor. There were nine floors all together and the night of the very big City fire my sister and I went up on to the roof, that’s above the ninth floor and looked across to the city and we could see the whole of St Paul’s Cathedral surrounded by flames there. The city had suffered very much in that. In that raid. And the only firemen left in the headquarters were a few, no engines again but they were up on the roof with stirrup pumps and buckets and as incendiary bombs fell on the roof they would go and put them out from their stirrup pumps and buckets. Put the fires out before they could get a hold on the building.
CB: And as children what did you, how did you feel about this huge perspective of fire?
DB: This was before the war, you mean?
CB: No. In the war.
DB: In the war.
CB: So, you’re watching. You’re watching the fires burning.
DB: Well, children. You see I was seventeen, eighteen, upwards then.
CB: Yeah.
DB: My sister was two years younger. A year and eight months —
CB: Yeah.
DB: Younger than I was. And you didn’t enjoy it. I used to think to myself if we survive all this I’ll never grumble about anything ever again. Well, of course I did. I have [laughs] But, but that was how you felt at the time. You didn’t know whether you would survive the night. You didn’t know whether you might be surrounded by fire even where you lived. Certainly, when I worked in the Air Ministry in London and I did first aid duty for the Air Ministry and was called out to raids. We took shelter probably once every two weeks. Slept in the basement again with these huge pipes that supplied water I think to the whole building and I used to wonder and was frightened at the thought of it. What would happen if the building was bombed and those pipes burst and we would be down there? What would happen to us? Yes. You were quite frightened but nevertheless you just had to get on with whatever was needed. I can remember coming up in the mornings and walking across rubble from some of the bombed buildings. It wasn’t, it was a difficult time to live but somehow you were given the strength to get on and do what you had to do. And we were very relieved when the time came that the bombing started, when it stopped every night even if you had one night’s rest you were thankful. And then after a break of course when the V-1s started and that was another different experience.
CB: 1944. Yeah.
DB: And they were still coming over to our country even when my husband had taken part in the Normandy landings and was wounded and came home. That was still going on. And then later on I was working when the first rocket, the first V-2 fell. I think that was in Chancery Lane. I was working in High Holborn in another Air Ministry building and I think that fell in Chancery Lane not that far away. It didn’t do us any, it didn’t do our building any damage but we were quietly working and suddenly heard this tremendous bang. It was a loud bang when the first rockets came over and, because we didn’t know what it was. And then you gradually began to, the news percolated through that it was the Germans latest weapon of war and, and we had many of them after that. That was 1944/45, I suppose. Going towards the end of the war.
CB: Going back to your father and the early stages of the war Dunkirk was the end of May, early June 1940. Then the bombing started seriously in London in the autumn.
DB: Yes. September.
CB: So, to what extent did your father describe what he was doing fighting the fires?
DB: He didn’t really talk a lot about of it at home. He was very very tired because it was constant. It was every night. At the beginning of the bombing he was out for three days and nights without sleep and because he was the officer in charge all his men came and went, did their day duty or their night duty and then went home and had a break. But for those first three days and nights he was on the fire boat the whole time and I think he was going to be going out again and my mother was absolutely distraught about that and went to see the chief officer [laughs] and said, ‘You can’t send him out again.’ And he didn’t. He gave him a night’s leave to come home and sleep and I suppose a subordinate officer took over. But then it happened again. Every, every night but at least a break in between and I mean we did hear over the years different things that might happen but, but he didn’t ever go in to any detail. Whether he thought it would be distressing for us. We would hear the buildings that he’d been to like Piccadilly and relaying hoses. We would hear that sort of information but nothing, nothing of the suffering. We would hear if any of his men had been killed. One or two I think were sent overboard from the boat in to the river and were not always able to be rescued although they could all swim. But, but no. We didn’t hear a lot about the suffering from my father.
CB: But the loss rate of civilians and of fire crews was quite considerable.
DB: Certainly, all the land crews I think maybe the land crews did have a greater number of casualties than the Fire Boat crews because some who might have been knocked in to the river would have been able to swim to the shore and be rescued. However, that was. But land crews, yes my own brother was a fireman stationed in the East End of London and the East End suffered very heavily. And one night there was bombs were dropped and I think it was a laundry fire and he, I think all the generator boxes were blown up all down the street that he was in, helping to put out the fires and he was blown in to the middle of the road and he, every bone in his foot, in one foot was broken and he spent the next year in hospital. The Fire Brigade or the Ministry of Defence, whatever it was then were trying out a new type of treatment that they had discovered through the Spanish Civil War where they had discovered people injured by the roadside who not been able to be rescued for a long time and their wounds had healed in their own gangrene. And my brother’s foot went gangrenous and he was taken in to hospital at Ripley in Surrey and they tried this, this treatment on him putting plasters on, I think once a month. However long it was. Leaving it on. And those wounds were left in their own gangrene and he had to be moved in to his own ward because his wounds and what came from his wounds was affecting the throats of other patients and so he was put in a ward on his own. And, and those plasters were put on for a year and then at the end of the year the doctors said to my parents because he wasn’t married, my brother, he was still at home and they said, ‘Now, your son’s wounds have healed but if we leave things as they are he’s going to be more of a cripple with that foot than without it. So we want you to make the decision, you and your son whether he should have that foot removed.’ And my brother was engaged to be married at the time so the fiancé was brought in to that too and my brother did decide to have the foot just below the knee. His leg was taken off and, which was very sad. It left him disabled of course for the rest of his life but —
CB: So, just putting that in to context the Spanish Civil War was 1936 to ’39.
DB: Yes.
CB: Were there people from the civil war who were part of the medical staff?
DB: I wouldn’t know. I don’t know that. No. I’ve no idea. We just heard that it was a discovery that they were trying out for raid conditions in our own country.
CB: Yes.
DB: But instead of them just being left by the roadside these people who were injured he was in hospital and being supervised.
CB: Yeah.
DB: Looked at all the time. But it was a strange, well, it was a very strange experience. And my sister and I used to cycle from Lambeth Bridge to Ripley to go and visit him. And at one stage there were lads who had been injured as part of aircrew in the same hospital. I don’t know quite how that happened but they were put out in the open air in the summer weather. I think they had injuries where they felt fresh air was beneficial to them. But, but for my brother that was the end of his war.
CB: Yes. This is before McIndoe really got going.
DB: Yes. Yes. Well, that was later. That was penicillin, wasn’t it?
CB: Well —
DB: Yeah. Fleming and McIndoe.
CB: No. But this is to do with the burns really.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So, going back to your father with the boats.
DB: Yeah.
CB: You talked about the sorts of fires including oil.
DB: Yes.
CB: So, what was the real problem with boats? Was oil the real danger that caused a lot of concern. Burning on the surface of the water.
DB: I think. Well, I think it was because they, possibly it was more relaying of hoses. I mean there were obviously fire engines around because this was Shell Haven. Thames Haven and Shell Haven.
CB: Right.
DB: But certainly, I don’t know how near they got to those. But it might have been in a hose laying capacity. I really don’t know all that.
CB: Okay. So, you were born in 1921.
DB: Yes.
CB: At the end of the year. You decided, at what age did you leave school?
DB: I left school when I was just seventeen.
CB: Right.
DB: I’d gone in to the sixth form. I’d done one term in the sixth form but decided it was an unsettled world. We hadn’t, hadn’t started the war but, but I didn’t want to carry on with education. I wanted to go out to work but and so I took the Civil Service exam. But I also started at St George’s College, Red Lion Square to get more qualifications and hoped to get in to the executive grade of the Civil Service and perhaps from then to the administrative. But I would have settled for the executive I think then. But of course, the war started and they closed all of those institutions for a while. They opened them later but at that time I was looking ahead to marriage and family and didn’t really, and wouldn’t have continued with education.
CB: But you said you joined in January ’39.
DB: Yes.
CB: The Civil Service.
DB: Yes.
CB: What made you choose A) the Civil Service and, B) the Air Ministry particularly?
DB: Well, you know in those days it wasn’t the affluent society that it became later and you always felt that security was the big thing and the Civil Service had a very good reputation. You reckoned that the Civil Service had slightly higher wages than other types of work. That it was interesting work. Administration. All of those things appealed to me. My parents were not affluent. We had security and the Civil Service was another, it was a secure future. You felt you were paving the way to a secure future for yourself and I liked administration. I wanted to do that. I had to put down if I had a preference for any department what would it be and I put down the Civil Service. I put down one other, I can’t think what that one was now because I thought the Civil Service Air Ministry would be a particularly interesting job. The, the Air Force was only really just growing at that time. And, and that I felt would be good and that I might have time, might have the opportunity of going abroad with the, with the Air Ministry. What I didn’t know was that in those days they didn’t send young women abroad with the, with the Air Ministry. So I wouldn’t have had those opportunities. But the war started anyway and that, that put an end to that. But yes, I felt that would be an interesting life.
CB: And how did they train you to begin with?
DB: Oh, you were put in to a department and under your superior officer. He gave you a sort of training but you, you started work. I mean it was quite a modest job. It was a clerical officer and as I say I hoped to get to be an executive officer quite soon because you could take the exams quite quickly. The internal exams. But, but everything changed with the onset of war. But, but you were working straightaway on, on your own work. I think as I stayed with them for a year or two I think my particular responsibility was examining negotiations and agreements for providing water supplies and sewerage disposal facilities for Air Force stations all over the country. That could be big airfields, it could be small premises and so you were dealing with, corresponding with supply authorities for those facilities and also for councils if the councils were involved. Borough councils, county councils, whatever. So, you were dealing with those authorities all the time. So, I got to know a lot about the different airfields. All the names of them. And even to this day when I hear the name of an Air Force station that still exists I immediately think of the size of the file. It might be like that. Bovingdon. All sorts of them all over the country or down to small premises like that.
CB: And the airfields themselves were, they were building them brand new.
DB: Some of them. But some of them were old Air Force stations from before the war. Yes. But a lot of them were new. The thick ones tended to be the older ones. And certainly, all of East Anglia was like one big airfield.
CB: Where was this run from?
DB: Where was —
CB: Where was this office of yours?
DB: The first year of the war I was in Harrogate. We were evacuated to Harrogate. To the Ladies’ College. We worked in Ladies’ College at Harrogate. They evacuated the Ladies’ College pupils to a safer place in the country they thought but they gave it to us, the Air Ministry. And really Harrogate was filled with civil servants and Air Force personnel and we had a social life up there. I was billeted with a railway family up there. And when I, when the raids started and we weren’t getting any news of how our families were faring back in London and I put in for the transfer back home the man of the house where I was billeted, who was a senior engine driver on the LNER railway, he said, ‘Would you like a ride on the footplate?’ I said, ‘Yes please.’ So he gave me a ride on the footplate from Harrogate to Knaresborough, a little local village up there which was exciting for me. And then I came back to London but, and in Harrogate they were very kind, the people we were billeted with. And one day the air raid sirens went. Well, so that must have been just at the start of the raids, I think. Well, nobody ever expected Harrogate to suffer any air raids but the lady of the house, well it must have been a weekend because the lady of the house grabbed hold of the three of us girls, seventeen year olds, and said, ‘Come under the stairs. Come under the stairs.’ And she dragged us under the stairs because she said that was the strongest part of the house. A very modest little house. And dragged us under there and I think there were three bombs dropped from one aircraft in the grounds of a hotel I think up in Harrogate. And I think that was, they were the only bombs that I think Harrogate had during the war but it certainly created excitement at the time.
CB: So, you got back to London but how? How did you convince them to send you back to London?
DB: Well, I just said my family were here and where they lived right by Lambeth Bridge and the centre of all the bombing. That it took five days for us to get letters or to be able to make a phone call. We couldn’t make a phone call home and I said that, you know I wanted to be back with the family. Hopefully to work in the Air Ministry in London. Of course, there was some of the Air Ministry in London you see. It was that the I went to [pause] now was it Ajax House? Victory House? One of the big houses in the Kingsway I went to first of all and travelled to work daily. Bus or tram or whatever it was. They didn’t question it.
CB: You were billeted with your parents when you were in London then. You lived at home.
DB: Living at home. They didn’t call that billeted [laughs]. But yes, and that was when we had all of the bunk beds in the basement of the Headquarters and [pause] and didn’t know what we would find when we got up in the morning. Whether it would be rubble as I say. We often did walk over rubble in different parts of London. We got to work. I mean I think probably the hours were a bit intermittent. It depended how long it took us to get to, to work. I think there was still a tramway that went underground up to the Kingsway. Near Bush House.
CB: Yeah.
DB: And —
CB: It’s still used. The tunnel.
DB: It’s still used.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. The roadway.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So you didn’t use the tube because of the —
DB: No.
CB: The roadway and the bus was more convenient.
DB: Well, there wasn’t, the nearest tube to us was Westminster tube station which would have meant walking over the bridge and to the station which was right by the Houses of Parliament.
CB: Yeah.
DB: Big Ben. And that would have taken longer I suppose. We could get buses outside the Headquarters. Buses ran from Albert Embankment there right through to, to the West End. To the City.
CB: There’s a classic picture of the Blitz with a bus in a big crater. Did you see that sort of damage?
DB: I don’t know that I saw that. I remember hearing about it. We had friends. Now, this man was in the police force and he was, you know he had a reasonably responsible job in the police force and I think he lived in Balham and he was out overnight with the raids happening and got back home in the morning off duty to find that his wife and three daughters had been killed. Their house had been bombed and I think that was when Balham had quite a lot of bombing. That part of London. And I think the tube station at Balham, I think a bomb went down the shaft to it. I have a feeling.
CB: A ventilation shaft. Yes.
DB: Was that right?
CB: Yes.
DB: Yeah. And [pause] Yes. There were some horrific incidents. That must have been awful for him.
CB: When you were in Harrogate you were doing your airfield work but what did you do when you returned to London?
DB: Well, I was trying to work out [pause] yes, because it must have been a different branch. It might, it might even be that that part came because I’d been in the Air Ministry for a year before I came back when the raids started. And it may even be that I started with something smaller in Harrogate and took on the airfield work when I came back. I’m not, really not too sure about that now. No. I can’t think.
CB: What sort of people were working with you?
DB: What —?
CB: Sort of people were working with you?
DB: Oh, well, they were mainly young women and middle-aged women and men. But we also had, I remember there was one young man who was about twenty eight and he was a conscientious objector. So he was given leave to not be part of the armed services but I think he had to do nine months in prison for that. But I know there was quite strong feeling because people used to feel is this fair because he is showing what he can do in the civilian job and therefore he will have an advantage when the men in the services come back home. There were all sorts of feelings about conscientious objection, that sort of thing during the war. If there were people in reserved occupations. They would call them reserved occupations. He was a nice enough chap and if he was, if he was sincere in what he believed you know you couldn’t blame him but but the people there who had loved ones fighting in the active services did feel strongly about it.
CB: So, did this effectively be expressed as abuse?
DB: Oh, they would talk. I don’t know how much they expressed it to him but certainly they would talk about it to one another and say how they felt about their own loved ones being away, in danger, losing perhaps seniority for when they came back and that would affect their promotion. Yes. There were prejudices.
CB: Did he describe any experiences of his own of people?
DB: I think he was a bit of a loner.
CB: Criticising him.
DB: He was a bit of a loner, I think. For those reasons really.
CB: And did he do extra tasks like fire watching?
DB: Did he or did I?
CB: Did he?
DB: Did he? Not that I’m aware of. I did. I did fire watching in Harrogate and I did first aid of course in London. I did fire watching on the roof of the Air Ministry. The Ladies’ College when we were in Harrogate. I thought that was the thing to do because my father and my brother were in the Fire Service. But when we came back to London I wanted to do first aid and I did British Red Cross and St John’s Ambulance courses in order to help me to do that.
CB: And then to what extent did you put that into action?
DB: Well, I, I didn’t have to do any serious dressing of wounds or anything. I think bandaging and as I say I saw this one really nasty incident. But they drew more than one first aid party to them in case people couldn’t get through obstruction in the roads. And we were the second party to get there on this occasion and there were people just ahead of me already dealing with the wounded but that was where I was standing behind ready to take over. For instance, if those people had fainted or anything in their, you know treatment of the injured. And that was where I did see the open head wound. Very dark wounds of this one particular lady and I did hear afterwards that she had died and I wasn’t surprised. She looked, she was unconscious but I didn’t actually have to deal with it myself.
CB: What sort of wound was it?
DB: Open. The whole of the head was open.
CB: Blown the back of the head had it? Yeah. And how did you feel about that?
DB: How did I feel about it? I just felt at the time I wasn’t capable of thinking. I was waiting to see if I was going to be needed. But afterwards even during those days I thought how awful that young women like me or anybody had got to see that because it, it was pretty awful.
CB: The secondary shock caught up with you. We’ll pause just for a mo.
[recording paused]
DB: I was thinking just now when you said, you know, you’re doing alright I thought if I had been the age or near the age that I am now when those, some of those things happened I would have probably taken more in. Be able to interpret them in a different way. It very much relates to the age that you are at the time and the experiences you’ve had previously. So that you don’t quite know what to expect I should think when you are, you are doing all these interviews. But, and, and I don’t know whether I am, whether I am interpreting everything correctly. I’m, I’m trying to be totally honest.
CB: Well, it’s the recall that is important.
DB: Yes.
Other: Yes. Yeah.
DB: Yes.
CB: We want to know.
DB: Yes.
CB: How you felt about it.
DB: Yes, well that —
CB: As you remember feeling about it.
DB: That’s what I’m trying —
CB: Yeah.
DB: To do as I go.
CB: In today’s perspective.
DB: And it’s a long time.
CB: Yes.
DB: It’s a long time ago.
Other: It is a long time.
DB: But —
Other: I think it’s fantastic that you remember.
DB: Well —
Other: Absolutely fantastic. I can’t always remember last week.
DB: Well, no but that’s true. They say that don’t they? The short term memory.
Other: Yeah. Goes.
DB: I find now that I can lose a name. The name of a person, name of a place.
Other: Yes.
DB: I can’t just grab hold of it straightaway.
Other: Would you like another cup of tea now?
DB: No.
[recording paused]
CB: We’ve covered a lot of things but what I’d like to do is just to step back in a way because —
DB: Yes.
CB: I mentioned early on I’d like to know what your education was and how that worked and then how that impinged on your career so, what, what did you do when you got in to the more senior part of education?
DB: Well, I was never very senior because I went in as quite a lowly level of clerical officer intending to take the examinations.
CB: No, but at school.
DB: Yes. This was at school. But when I was at, it depends really where you want me to start.
CB: Okay.
DB: I went to a London Elementary School. From there I took the Junior County Examination. I passed at a high level but elected not to take up those top grammar Schools. Went to the normal London Grammar School. It was a grammar school in Clapham and and worked for matriculation examinations at sixteen, the equivalent of GCSEs now, I suppose and passed those. And went in to the sixth form intending to do what was called Higher Schools Examinations then but had decided whether it was anything to do with the world being very unsettled, it was the time of Munich and all of those things. I don’t really know. But I decided I didn’t want the lengthy education. That I would go out to work. Chose the Civil Service and, and would work my way up within the Civil Service. Now, when I was at school I was quite able at the academic studies and at sport so I could have gone either way at school. It was a good education. It was a good grammar school. Also, when I was at school I did have the opportunity of sitting for a scholarship. Just for a Saturday morning scholarship to Trinity College of Music and I passed that and I used to travel as a ten year old actually on the bus from Battersea Bridge to Hyde Park Corner, change the bus at Hyde Park Corner. Everybody worked Saturday mornings in those days so with all of the working population I would then get the bus and go up to Selfridges, walk down beside Selfridges to Trinity College of Music and did three years of music education there. It was mainly piano and theory. I didn’t do the singing there. I did that later on when I was older when I wanted to do singing tuition and did that and in my life have done quite a bit of singing. That was my interest. Coming back from Trinity College of Music, Saturday about 1 o’clock all of the crowds coming home from work in the morning it was a real scrum at Hyde Park Corner where I had to change buses. No queuing for buses in those days. That didn’t happen until the war. So, everybody was rushing for their bus at Hyde Park Corner. There was quite a lot of elbowing as I remember but, and do you know you’d hesitate these days to let your ten year old do that sort of journey in London on her own. There was one other little girl that, we were often together. But that’s the way it was. We did that journey on our own and got back for the rest of Saturday to my home by the bridge. My mother who had thought when my father got his own fire station command was going to have a nice country station like Streatham, she thought. That’s not so countrified now I believe, because we had Phillips Paper Mills one side of the road and Morgan Crucible Chemical Company the other side of the road. Down a side road. So we were really right in the heart of London and it was actually at, when I lived at Battersea Fire Station there that I met my husband in the church youth group. I was fourteen, he was fifteen and we weren’t boy and girlfriend then. In fact, I think we both had other eyes for other boys and girls but it was a good healthy start to to growing up and, and we kept in touch. We kept in touch when I was at Harrogate. He was at his OTC, Officer’s Training Corps at his school. He went to Sir Walter St John School in Battersea and and did his training for OTC and therefore he went into the Army when he finally left school and we got to the wartime years. And first of all they sent him to the Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry. Then they picked him up for, for Sandhurst and he did his training at Sandhurst. Wasn’t the lengthy training they do now at Sandhurst but that’s where he met and it was while he was there that he came home on leave, asked if he could stay with my parents. His mother had already moved to the West Country with her husband. And my parents didn’t know what to say. I didn’t know what to say. I wasn’t in love with him at the time [laughs] And, but anyway they said, ‘Oh, yes. We can’t refuse him.’ And so he came and stayed with us for his leave and that was where our life story began. Our love story began if you like. My father sent one of his men to Victoria Station with me to pick up my husband. We went back to the Fire Brigade Headquarters and he stayed there with us and, and that was it. That was the future assured.
CB: So, then he, in his Army experiences he then landed at D-Day.
DB: Yes.
CB: What happened there?
DB: He was, he was drafted to the Lincolnshire Regiment. Really, he chose that because he was at Sandhurst with a Lincolnshire boy, man and they talked about what they would put down as their first choice when they left Sandhurst and my husband didn’t know. My husband was born in Canada of an American father and, and met the mother in the First World War. That, and that was how Don came, they went back to Canada and Don was born in Canada. But this young man that he trained at Sandhurst with said, ‘Well, why, if you don’t know what to choose why don’t you put down for Lincoln’s Regiment? He said, ‘I’m going to put that down because it’s my home county and we could stay together, you know, the rest of the war.’ So, Don said, ‘Yes. Alright. I’ll do that. That’s as good as any regiment.’ So, he put down for the Lincolnshire Regiment and they were drafted to different battalions and never met again the rest of the war. He didn’t even know if he survived the war. But of course, my husband made many friends in the Lincolnshire Regiment during the war. And in fact we went to most of the Lincolnshire Regiment reunions after the war which was why when we were talking I said to you we went to most of the reunions every September after and through the war and went to a number of reunions in Normandy. When he was drafted to the battalion, second battalion the Lincolnshire Regiment he did normal infantry training with his company and then he said to me that they wanted to send him on this intelligence course at the School of Military Intelligence at Matlock, I think it was. And so he went to Matlock. I was on holiday with my parents and my sister in Devonshire in 1943 and we had become engaged by then, Don and I and expected to be engaged for possibly three or four years. Wait for the war to finish. We didn’t even have the Second Front established then but we waited. We would wait for the war to finish. He would get established in civilian life and so we would have to be engaged a long time. Well, he started at the School of Military Intelligence and I received this letter when we were on holiday in Woolacombe and the letter said, ‘If I pass this course I will get my third pip, be a captain. And I’d like us to be married before I go abroad.’ And I thought what on earth am I going to say to my parents? They think we’re going to be engaged for four years. So, I spoke to my mother first. I thought she would be the easier one and she said, ‘I don’t know what your father will say.’ [laughs] Spoke to my father and he said, ‘Ridiculous.’ But they all rallied around, you saw the picture of the wedding and gave me coupons for my trousseau. And we had a wedding and a wedding reception and photographs. Everything as I say except for wedding bells which we couldn’t have. Then of course, within nine months of that marriage he had landed in Norway, err in Normandy. I’ve got to gather my thoughts. And so, and many experiences stem from that. But we survived. We survived the war. We were the lucky ones.
CB: How did he get wounded?
DB: Sorry?
CB: How did he get wounded?
DB: They were about half a mile inland, if that. A quiet road. That was where they established their Brigade Headquarters. As I say he was brigade intelligence officer and he was, he’d had to go with the brigadier inland to the village of Herouville [?] This was where they landed. Herouville.[?] But the village itself was about a mile inland and they’d established that, the regiment had got that far and they established a Divisional Headquarters in a big office there next to the church and Don had gone with the brigadier to sort out the next move because I think German Panzer divisions were moving up to where they were and they were going to have to change all their moves. Make a different strategy. He came, he went up in the scout car, they came back in the scout car. Don stayed with his little band of brigade IO people telling them the next plans. What they’d got to do next. And it was while they were sitting there in a little dip in the roadway that this either mortar fire or artillery fire there’s some question now about which it was. They, we, we always understood it was mortar fire three hundred and fifty yards away but now there’s some suggestion that it may have been artillery fire. Whichever it was it landed in the midst of them, this little band of I think a dozen of them, this brigade IO headquarters and half a dozen of them were killed and half a dozen were wounded. The brigadier was one of those who was wounded too. And we kept in touch with him after the war. We saw them every time we went to Scotland. He was in the Scottish part of the Third Division. This was the Third Infantry Division and [pause] but of course it meant Don was put in the assembly area for bringing back to England. Did I tell you that story about the medical officer? The medical officer came round, dressed his wounds which were all leg including the femur, fractured femur and he put him back with others who were also wounded and said to the medical orderly, ‘I want you to take this officer down to the beach tonight for embarkation in the morning back to England.’ And the medical orderly got it wrong and took the man next to my husband down to the beach that night. The medical officer came back and said, ‘You’ve taken the wrong man down. Never mind. Leave it now but get him down first thing in the morning. I want him on that.’ On the, on the ships. So in the night, that night the German bombers came over, strafed the beach and all of those including the man next to Don, all of those who were down on the beach were killed. But Don wasn’t killed so, but taken down the next morning. So, the next morning the small ships came in and took these officers and people who, including German prisoners who were there on to the small ships and the small ships were going out in to the bay, the bigger part of the bay to the big ships to get them back to England. While they were on the small ships German bombers came over, Stuka bombers this was, came over and started dive bombing the small ships to stop them getting out to the big ships. The big ships who already had their, you know thingummies to get them on board that was already down but they had to put up these big gates. And in the meantime, the small ships which were being piloted by men of the, of the Third Division, and it was a little corporal and Don said he was absolutely wonderful because he would watch these Stuka, Stuka bombers coming and getting to the top and when they got to the top they started dive bombing. And as soon as the little corporal saw that he put the tiller hard over and the bomb would fall one side of them. They would come around again, go up again and as soon as they got to the top they would start dive bombing and the little corporal put the wheel hard over the other side. It fell the other side of the ship. He said, ‘If he did that once he did it twenty times and saved our lives.’ Including the lives of the German prisoners. But then they went away. The dive bombers went away and they were able to get the little ships out to the big ships and get them back to England. But, so he had about three escapes all together. Once with the Canadian officer. Once with the assembly area.
CB: How long was his convalescence?
DB: Well, he was in hospital six months but he was given, his leg, it was on traction and subject to dive bombing by wasps he always said. Wasps which kept coming round and dive bombing. Picking up the scent of all that was going on with his leg. But anyway, after two months and he was having physiotherapy and the doctors came up and said, ‘Sir, you are not exercising your leg enough. It’s not healing quickly enough.’ And my husband said, ‘I’m doing as far as I can. I cannot bend it further.’ ‘Well, you’ll have to try it.’ And my husband finally convinced them that he was doing as much as he could. So they decided to give him x-rays again. They took him out to x-ray him and found that the spike of his broken femur was sticking in a muscle. That’s why he couldn’t move it.
CB: Jeez.
DB: So, convinced they took him to the operating theatre again and cut off that spike and of course he had to start healing all over again and that took another three to four months. That’s why he was in hospital so long. But that was the only, well sort of, I suppose it was a sort of a convalescence. And I can’t remember when he was actually posted to Nottingham but from there he was posted to Nottingham and, and we were living there. That was when I left work and went up to join him. He, he rented a house that was opposite one that his uncle and aunt lived in. They happened to live in Nottingham and they said, ‘People opposite us are moving. They want to let their house. Why don’t you get Daphne up here?’ Which we did. So that was the end of my career and I was what? Twenty three then. Whatever it was. He was twenty four. And we were up there when the atom bombs were dropped and that brought a very quick end to the war of course. And then in that October he was posted to Cairo to do this advisory job really. And, and it was the, that next year that our son was born.
CB: How long were you in Cairo?
DB: He was in Cairo.
CB: Oh, he was.
DB: Yes. Not I. No.
CB: Right.
DB: There was no normality yet.
CB: No.
DB: That wasn’t really civilian life. He was there from October. I think it was eleven, thirteen months, I think. He went in the October and I think he came back the following month and I think he was demobbed the following November. So a year and a month.
CB: Okay.
DB: And then we were up in Blackpool. Or just north of Blackpool. He in the Civil Service. Me with our small son. He managed to get two rooms up there for us so we lived there. We were making all sorts of plans about the next summer going to the Isle of Man to see the TT races. He was very keen on the TT races on the Isle of Man so [laughs] But it didn’t happen because he took the next exam and passed that and was moved back to London. And then we stayed with my parents until we got a little house in Epsom ourselves and where we lived for seven years and then moved here and have been here ever since.
CB: That’s very good. How did you parents come to Epsom anyway?
DB: That was through this officer of, of the Lincolnshire Regiment whose parents lived in Epsom and managed the building firm. Managed. Owned the building firm that built many streets in Epsom. And that officer, John Roll was killed in Normandy in the July. He survived the first month or so but he died in the fighting in, I think it was Chateau Beauregard Wood. The woods around there. And Don wanted to see the parents to give his condolences. Talk about him. He always said John Roll was the best Christian young man he ever knew. A lovely young man, and he was engaged and he died. So Don went to see him. And I think my parents were probably looking at estate agents then to see if they could find a house that they could move to when my father did finally leave the Headquarters which he was due to leave then. And that was when Mr Roll said, ‘I have a house in Epsom that has been leased to the Epsom Fire Service and if they will let, let it, release it back to me your parents can have it to rent.’ And that’s exactly what happened. They did release it to him. Mr Roll let my parents have it, next to the park in Epsom. We lived with them until we got our own house. And that established the pattern for the future. I’m still here.
CB: Very good. Right. We’ll stop there. Thank you very much indeed.
[recording paused]
CB: Yes.
Other: You mentioned something —
CB: So, you, a couple of things to pick up on. Your first child was your son.
DB: Yes.
CB: His name is —
DB: Anthony.
CB: And then you had a daughter.
DB: Avril.
CB: Avril who’s ably —
DB: We stopped there.
CB: Avril is —
DB: We thought we’d have four.
CB: Right.
DB: And we decided to stop.
CB: Ably assisted today by David.
DB: Absolutely. He’s a treasure.
CB: Yes.
DB: He’s a treasure.
Other 2: Is it worth, I don’t know whether it’s worth mentioning or not but, but mum’s father you know I think because of what went on in the war actually got a sort of creeping paralysis disease didn’t he? I mean, I don’t know whether that’s worth mentioning or not.
CB: Right. So, what were, what —
DB: No. I don’t think so David.
CB: No.
DB: Because we did discover an earlier, his father seemed to have something like that.
Other 2: Oh, right. Right. Okay.
Other 3: It’s probably genetic.
DB: I guess it was something genetic.
Other 2: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So, so, in summary what you’re saying is that your husband was finding it more difficult to get around in later years.
DB: Not my husband. No. My father.
CB: Your father, I meant to say. I meant to say your father.
Other 2: Yes. Yes.
DB: My father did find it —
Other 2: Yes.
DB: Very difficult to get around.
CB: Yes. Yes.
Other 3: From his early fifties.
DB: He was very badly disabled.
Other 3: Not later. From his early fifties.
CB: Early 50s.
Other 3: From about 1963.
DB: Not the 50s. It would be ‘60 Avril. ‘60s.
CB: 60s.
DB: Yeah.
CB: And then a story about what your husband was doing in the —
DB: Well, it was —
CB: With the D-Day plans.
DB: They did a lot of training in Normandy. A lot of the invasion training. He always said he got his feet wetter off the coast of Northern Scotland than he did when he landed on D-Day.
CB: Right.
DB: Because he jumped on the back of a Sherman tank to land on the beaches at Normandy. But anyway, from Scotland getting ready for the trip across the Channel they moved down to the south of England. Hambledon. Near Hambledon Somewhere near. That part of, of the south coast and because he knew he was within reach of Epsom he thought it would be a good idea to take the, if he, if he got the weekend off duty to come up to see me. So, he borrowed a motorbike from the unit down there and rang me. Asked me if I could meet him at the Anchor Hotel. Anchor Hotel. Royal Anchor Hotel, something like that, at Liphook, Hampshire. I took the train down there, met him there and he booked a room for us. First time I’d ever slept between coloured sheets [laughs] and I promised myself when we got our own home after the war I would have coloured sheets. Silly things you do really. Anyway, we spent the weekend there and then of course he had to go back south. He told his, and I had to come back home, I was working still with the Air Ministry he told his fellow officers about this lovely weekend and he’d achieved it. Hadn’t told any of them before he came away and so a number of them tried to do the same the next weekend and the military police got to hear about it and came up and arrested them all and took them back before they’d had the weekend there [laughs] And it wasn’t Don. It wasn’t dad that had told them. That was just the way it was. I think, yes so I think there were too many of them. And within, I think it was within a couple of weeks of that time he had a motorbike again down there. This time officially. Legally. And he came up to London. He was being sent with revised plans of the Normandy invasion in an old laundry box and he’d got to get them across to Tilbury to see the generals there about the revised plans there. And so he brought these plans up in this old laundry box and we slept in my mother’s spare bedroom up there of course with this revised plans of the Normandy invasion under the bed. I mean, I wasn’t allowed to see them of course. I mean he was totally honourable in that way but I don’t know that anybody else knew that and I don’t know that you ought to put that in really [coughs] sorry.
CB: I don’t think it will be too sensitive.
DB: Sorry?
CB: I don’t think it will be too sensitive.
DB: You don’t think it would.
CB: No.
DB: No. Probably wouldn’t.
CB: No.
DB: Well, there we are. I’ll have to leave that to you.
CB: What was the most memorable thing about your experiences in the war?
DB: Oh, well, I I think I would have to say [pause] because they went over on the Tuesday for the landings and I didn’t hear another word until the Saturday. I didn’t know whether he was alive or dead. And on the Saturday, because it took a couple of days to get him back to England, on the Saturday I, I was at work. Again, we still worked on Saturday mornings. My sister phoned me from the Headquarters and said, ‘You’ve got a telegram, Daph.’ And straightaway she said, ‘But it’s alright.’ Because you see being a wife I had the first telegram. ‘But it’s alright,’ she said and she was choked and I was choked hearing this. She said, ‘I’ll read it to you.’ And of course, I’ve never forgotten he just said, ‘Wounded. Now in hospital. Writing. Love Don.’ But it wasn’t the official telegram. That came later. The War Office telegram. He had got the sister of the hospital, Botleys Park, he had got her to send that telegram to me as a personal telegram from him. And of course, my boss at the office packed me off home straight away. ‘Go on. You go home. You’re going home.’ And so I went home because I would obviously want to go down and visit him. I knew it was in Botleys Park. Must have. I don’t know how that news got through but anyway I went down to see him Saturday and Sunday and —
CB: Finally —
DB: That was the most memorable news because I knew he was alive.
CB: Yes.
DB: I knew I’d got a future. And he never saw active service again you see. He was —
CB: No.
DB: That was the end of his active war. Other than that as far as my own experiences perhaps in some ways seeing the horrors of the war and feeling that I would never want to do that again.
CB: During the Blitz.
DB: Yes. Yeah. And, and this lady whose head was open. And I think all of these things influence your thinking for after the war.
CB: Yes.
DB: How you feel about war itself. Now, I’ve got a young grandson who quite thinks about going in to one of the services and I think I don’t know whether I want him to. But —
CB: You mentioned the V weapons earlier. V —
DB: Yes.
CB: What was people’s reaction, first of all to the V-1s?
DB: Well, we were puzzled. We were totally puzzled. We didn’t know what it could be. What is this thing? It’s something different. Then of course very quickly they did get news out. We didn’t know. And the barrage balloons were up of course and we were hoping that they would catch these sort of aeroplanes in them and bring them down and there was more a widespread dispersal of where these things were falling. It’s where a lot of them fell around Epsom you see. It was horrible. And my own experience of being caught in that locked air raid shelter opposite St Thomas’ Hospital. I didn’t know, you never knew where they were going to fall. They were just making this noise and, until it stopped and then you didn’t know whether it was going to fall on you when it stopped. You didn’t know that it would go on a bit further over the river like it did with me. It went over the river. Or you didn’t know whether it would fall before then. There were so many question marks with all of this which left a great insecurity about life generally. You didn’t [pause] you didn’t know whether any moment might be your last moment. Your last conscious moment. Despite all that somehow you had an optimism that you would survive like I did when I saw the people lined up on the railway station saying good bye to their loved ones. I amongst them. Dispersed all along the railway station platforms. As the as the chaps went off to wherever they were stationed and you didn’t know whether that was the last time you would see them. So there was so, there was so much insecurity and yet you hoped. You carried on hoping. You believed. I believed we would come through. I believed we would win the war. Even in Harrogate where Harry Schofield the chap I was billeted with he got very depressed and I would go around singing, “It’s a Lovely Day Tomorrow.” [laughs] and I’d say ‘It’ll be alright. It’ll be alright. You’ll find out. It’ll be alright.’ But you got, you did get depressed at times when it went on, dragged on so much and you knew that the war could not finish until we had gone in to Europe. So we knew that was still ahead of us. Nothing could happen. We couldn’t plan the future until that happened and we’d retaken Europe.
CB: The V-1 you got some warning because the engine stopped. It wasn’t supposed to but that’s another matter.
DB: Yes.
CB: But the V-2 you couldn’t hear it arrive.
DB: No.
CB: Until after it had arrived.
DB: That’s right. Until the bang happened.
CB: What was the reaction to that?
DB: Well, that first one happened, as I say I was in High Holborn and it fell in Chancery Lane. And again, to begin with because it was the first you didn’t know what it was. This terrible explosion. You didn’t know whether it was an unexploded bomb suddenly going off. One that had been dropped a year before perhaps because this happened too. Bombs would suddenly explode. And so you waited for news and, and I think we again they got the news through quite quickly that it was another V weapon that the Germans had, had invented. And, and we didn’t know what, whether there would be many. Whether it was a one-off thing. We guessed there would be more. Of course, if they’d been successful in getting it that far then it must be possible for them to get more that far. They came from certain fields in, on the continent and we were told that the RAF were bombing those places and of course but they were well fortified. I think some were at, no. it was the submarines that were at la Rochelle. They were more Northern Europe —
CB: Yeah.
DB: These V weapons. You probably know but certainly we were doing our best to bomb where they were being made and, and fired from. A lot of time you spent waiting to know more. And then when you knew more waiting to hear the next development or to feel or to suffer the next development yourselves. Hoping that it wouldn’t be your loved ones. You knew it could happen where they lived or where they worked. There was, there was so much uncertainty all the time.
CB: The V-1 by nature of its arrival created more blast at surface level. The V-2 descending vertically had high penetration and had less blast. From a public point of view which one was more terrifying?
[pause]
DB: That’s difficult to answer because there seemed to be more of the V-1s. There probably were.
CB: There were.
DB: The V-2s I think were over more quickly. Therefore, they haven’t left as big an impression on me as the V-1s did. But on the other hand you shook probably with belated fear when the V-2s happened. But then you said to yourself it happened, it’s done. For that one it’s done. There may be more. But with the V-1s you went through a longer process of hearing it. Not knowing how near it was or where it would stop or where it would fall when it did stop. So, in that way I would think the V-1s were more frightening for me. It wouldn’t be the same perhaps for others.
CB: Okay. Good. I think we must stop there. Thank you very much indeed. Absolutely fascinating.
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Interview with Daphne Baptiste
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Chris Brockbank
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2017-05-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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ABaptisteDMM170504
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01:22:45 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
Description
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Daphne joined the Air Ministry at 17. She initially joined the Civil Service as she believed it would be a safe job with high wages. Throughout the war, she was stationed at Ladies College in Harrogate and was in charge of supplying water to many RAF stations. Daphne recalls her experience of the war as a civilian, as her father was a firefighter in London, she recalls a large amount of the Blitz. She mentions working with a young man who was a conscientious objector and describes how he was viewed at the time. During the Blitz, she was both a fire watcher and a first-aider. She also gives information regarding her family's experience during the First World War, including Zeppelin bombing. She recounts her memories of seeing St. Paul’s cathedral is surrounded by fire, seeing firefighters running to put out fires and the anxiety of not knowing if she would wake up in the morning. She recounts one or two deaths and many injuries in the fire service, including her brother, another fire-fighter, who was injured one night, and left disabled. She ends the interview by remembering marrying her husband, a Canadian born army officer, just before the D-Day landings, in which he was injured. She went a long-time without any communication, wondering if he would return.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Harrogate
England--London
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1943
1944
1945
bombing
fear
firefighting
home front
love and romance
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1286/20097/PSutherlandD1901.1.jpg
7fdbcf2e8591da39d9bec6c5cb887d77
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1286/20097/ASutherlandD191211.1.mp3
aaf42e489f40275ed15b16ed9b7f62ba
Dublin Core
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Title
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Sutherland, Don
D Sutherland
Sutherland, Donald
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Don Sutherland (1919 - 2022). He was conscientious objector during the war and worked on a farm in Lincolnshire.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-05-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Sutherland, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DE: So, this is Dan Ellin. I’m interviewing Don Sutherland at his home in Lincoln. It’s the 11th of December 2019 and this is for the IBCC Digital Archive. So, Don, I’ll just put that there. You were, you were talking about your father and, and his work in, in the First World War. What is it you, you think that made the first and the Second World War so, so different?
DS: Well, the first, the First World War I think could easily have been avoided. Certainly, in comparison with the Second World War which the way things had developed in Germany it was quite inevitable that it would lead to so many countries becoming involved and, and there was certainly much more of a drive from the Germany who had become the enemy so to speak. And it became so inevitable that it should lead to war because the way Hitlerism originated and developed its prime intention was, was to make them masters of the, of a huge area which would, would, would together lead to quite a different sort of civilisation really.
DE: So why was it that you chose not to fight?
DS: It’s a very good question because it, it was something which in, in Newcastle where I I was brought up and first, first worked for, I’d say half a dozen years the fact was that we had this annual thing going on in the, in the town moor there where all sorts of meetings were held. And this was an opportunity which the, the Pacifist people used to talk about alternatives to war and it was through a meeting that took place there just before the war began more or less, a year before the war began that gave me any ideas about, about the history of war and what you might say the inevitability of war and that there was a possibility that the idea of war was something that was a historical fact that people had learned to accept as being inevitable and that there was no possibility of any objective. Any alternative to, to war. And when the idea came to me that you could refuse to accept war as being inevitable and that certain people had made that part of their life to devote themselves to propagating that, that purpose in life to oppose war rather than to accept it as an inevitable thing. And until, until, until that time in in nineteen, was it 1939 it began — ?
DE: Yes.
DS: That, and it began in such a sort of a mixed way from what, what was done in Germany and then the surrounding countries in a gradual way. And of course, we went to war. Germany didn’t declare war on Germany, on England as you know but we became involved because of promises we’d made to, to support the country that Germany had invaded.
DE: Yes. Poland. Yes.
DS: Yes. That was, that was the reason we went to war because Germany had never actually declared war on us and so I, there was a feeling of sort of, a ridiculous feeling I think that, that Britain wasn’t really interested. And they had no idea or I should say we had no idea that, that war was inevitable and would involve us as it involved all the other countries. And in the way, the way Hitler had little by little, and country after country become such a powerful set of people by using the most violent means which were completely foreign to us really. Germany had a set up a system which was, was quite unique and he was able to engage so many different people and, and use so many terrible methods gradually to dominate the areas which led to such a huge powerful and of course this was partly too with the, with the help of the other people with similar ideas who had already set up in Italy to, to dominate other countries. And it just became such a powerful theatre for war I suppose. It’s, it seems so foreign to us to understand how it could happen because we, we find now that that the so-called enemy is as much a friend as, as anybody else. And, and in fact is leading the way to try and keep people together and not to have one nation dominating another.
DE: So, I mean we spoke about this in the other interview when I was here a few months ago. So, we have on tape the process that you went through and the tribunal you went to. I’d like to ask you a bit more about your time on the farm in Lincolnshire. I wasn’t quite sure. Was it, where was it at? The farm.
DS: Well, there were two. Two farms, communities in, both in Lincolnshire. In Lincolnshire. And also there were similar types of communities involved in other parts of the UK. But I think the place at Holton Beckering which was the first place I went to was a set up by various prominent Pacifists. Pacifist people who centred in London and one, one section there by advertisement if you like to call it one way and, and by interviewing individuals set up, set up a very organised and financed thing. So that was, that was, that was at [pause] at Holton and it involved two separate farms. And I think that came more or less at the same time as two individuals, using their own finances set up a separate place right next door to it and I I joined first this main big one and I was interviewed in London to go, to go to that one because one of the, one of the the conshys who was a Quaker in [pause] where, where I lived and I went, I went and stayed with him when that community had started. So that was my first. It was just like a holiday there. I hitchhiked there and then when I happened, it turned out that I got the sack from work that’s where I applied to go. In the first place they said no. I didn’t, they didn’t, they interviewed me in London and took one look at me and said he, he’ll never make a farm worker. And then later on the same year when I, when I got the sack from my job I, I wrote. I wrote to them again and when I, one of the executive members of the committee came and talked, talked in Newcastle and I told him I’d lost my job and I’d already applied to them and been refused. It was a possibility that they might reconsider it you see.
DE: Yeah.
DS: Well, I got a reply straight away nearly. ‘Yes. We’ll take you.’ They’d set this place up and they were short of men you see and so they decided that they would take me. So, I went there straight away and joined. Joined one of the places which was adjoining but it was not, the other place was supposed to be the main place because they had the very highly skilled bloke, a local chap who was the, the boss, plus a local ex-farmer who was a Pacifist. And I worked there for two and a half years and that covered the time of the war because I didn’t start until 1941. I I was employed at work as I got complete exemption.
DE: Right. Ok.
DS: And then when, when the end of the war I I was somehow out of touch with, with, with what had happened to the first community because the fact that we, we had, I then moved on to the, the other one because the second community was just run by these two men and they were in charge so to speak. But not in charge in a dominant way but they, they’d financed it you see so it was completely independent from the first community I belonged. And, and that’s that first community slowly died off so to speak. I’m not quite sure exactly what happened because I was so much attached to the, to the new community and unfortunately it didn’t stand ground on its, on its own. Key people left who had been quite important in keeping it together and eventually it, it ended up in in the hands of two people who were, who were financially dominant. But we, those who wanted to were carried on, carried on as ordinary farm workers but, but we still felt it was a community. Very much so actually and so, I was working there for about twenty five years and then because of my health didn’t seem strong enough for the job I was doing I I changed my work and the house I was living in. We were able to buy it. So, although I was living in the area I had no direct attachment to the community. Although I was still attached to some of the people who were working there.
DE: And what was, what was life like in the community? What was, what was the sort of every, every day like? Or what was it like across the seasons?
DS: Well, we, we had married and unmarried helpers and we had, certainly in the, in the section that I lived and there were, there were in, in the second community we had, had separate houses but they were more or less adjoining. And the married couple were in charge and they sort of looked after us and we were just like a part of a family the rest of us. But it slowly, it slowly disintegrated unfortunately but we had young, quite young children there with us. But as I say that, that, that community lasted a lot longer than the much larger first one which was more or less organised in London. So, it was quite sad really. We had a, we had a very large farm. A farm with a very good quality flock of pedigree sheep.
DE: So, what was, could you describe what a typical day would have been like?
DS: Well, a lot of the work I did and of course on the farm it varied according to the time of the year what you had to do.
DE: Of course. Yes.
DS: And so, in the wintertime I would be working chop, chopping the hedges down, keeping them in track, digging out the ditches and that sort of thing. And in the early days it was all so run by human labour. We didn’t have many, many tools at all really to use. It was only latterly that we developed to a size where we became much more mechanised. So it was, it was quite tough work but we got used to it. I mean, I never dreamed that I would become so used to hard work. I just, it wasn’t in my, my training at all and so it was a completely new life for me as it was for most of them really and the thing was that this, this place where I belonged, the second place there was quite a tendency for the people there to, to have an upbringing in art and three of them or four, four altogether I think were, had already been training to get degrees in art. So, when they finished work for the day, farm work they would then go, go to their room at night and spend another few hours working at what was really their, their chosen ambition. So they, they were quite quick to leave when they had the opportunity to do so and that’s what they ended up doing.
DE: And what did, what did you do in the evenings?
DS: I think we just sat and talked most of the time. I I had a little cottage to myself. I don’t know what it was built for originally but it was big enough to, to have a bed in it and so I suppose I read a lot and —
JS: There wasn’t any electricity was there?
DS: No. Not at first. Not at first. But —
JS: So, you read with candles or oil lights?
[pause]
DS: Yes.
JS: I remember when Uncle Bill, which was my mum’s brother said when you worked with the horses you would throw the windows open wide very early in the morning and wake everybody up.
DS: [laughs] Yeah. We, yes, well yes. My favourite job was wagoning. Driving. Driving horses. But we had to get up quite early to give them their food because they were not, they were not as well looked after as they [pause] A lot of people would have their horses in stables overnight. Particularly in winter time but our horses were kept out in the open air right through the winter. So, we had to go out and they would reluctantly come with us so they could get fed properly before we put them to work in the day. And then later on they would have to go back outside again so it was a bit of a rough life for them but they were used to it.
JS: And you’d harness them up to the plough.
DS: Pardon?
JS: Did they go with the plough or did they just pull carts?
DS: No. We did have, we had tractors as well and the really heavy work was done by tractors. But when the land was prepared for sowing and it had to be worked down to get the right, the right place for the, for the seed to grow that was, a lot of that work was done by horses.
JS: So that was harrowing and —
DS: Yes. Keeping, keeping it clean. Clean and that sort of thing and of course in those days, those days too we didn’t have, we didn’t use a lot of manure. The, we would keep, keep the ground clean by dragging, dragging harrows over the ground to keep it clean. And, and then we’d also go over it by hand with, with hoes as well to clean the land. It was very much manual.
DE: Yeah.
DS: And hand, and hand working in the early days. And it was some time before we, before we had the combine harvesters.
DE: So very very very hard work.
DS: I couldn’t, I couldn’t believe when I when I saw the first combine harvester that they would find a method of harvesting without using the old fashioned way of, of using a plough system.
DE: I know, I know some farms used prisoners of war to help. Did, did you have any of that?
DS: Yes. Well, first of all because when the war, the war ended in two different stages because first of all we, we stopped being at war with, with —
DE: Germany.
DS: No.
JS: Italy.
DS: Another country.
DE: The Italians.
DS: Yes. That’s right. Yes. But Italy, you see that war finished first you see and so they were released from the, from the prisoner of war camps in the country and, and were allowed to go home before the Germans and the Germans were kept behind for three years after the war finished. They weren’t allowed to go home because there were so many troops, British troops still involved in in the countries that we were at war with. They were kept there and so we were short of people and employed the Germans for two or three years after the war finished. And we had four. Four working for us. Three, three were people who we got on well with and the other we thought he was a lazy beggar which he probably was and two of the others were they had both been teachers or heads of schools, junior schools in Germany and on the section of the farms that I belonged to we had one who we got to know very well. He had, his wife had one child who he’d never seen, this child and so the father was looking forward to be allowed home so that he could see his first, first baby. And we later, I later on went over to Germany and stayed with them.
JS: And his children came to stay with us, didn’t they?
DE: And then the, the son came over and stayed with us on more than one occasion and, and I still get Christmas cards from him but he —
JS: And they did a play didn’t they? The Holton Players. They put on a play.
DE: I wanted to talk about that a bit. Yes.
DS: Yes. Yes. They, they put on a play at Holton. This was where, this was where they were kept. At the ex-Army base there. And they had liberty during the day. They, they would walk around and have complete liberty but they weren’t allowed to go home so it must have been pretty tough for them. I think some of them must have tried [laughs] tried to escape but others felt that they were probably much better off where they were than going back to Germany because Germany was in a pretty raw state when the war finished. It was not a, not a very pleasant place to be because they were starving. A lot of them were. Because the, Germany treated the people so badly. It’s all so forgotten now, isn’t it?
JS: And the Holton Players you, they, they were the pre-the Broadbent Theatre weren’t they because they did plays in the Nissen hut that then got burned down.
DS: That’s right. But that was, that was a little time afterwards really.
JS: In the ‘50s.
DS: I’m not quite sure what, what year it was because the place we, the place we used at first was part of the place which the German prisoners of war had lived in. So it was a little time before the Players got, the Players got together and it was, it was some of the people in the, in the original community that I belonged to who were extremely good at theatre work and —
JS: Phil Walshaw. Her aunt was Sybil Thorndike.
DS: Yes.
JS: And she’d been to RADA for a year before she had to leave.
DS: Yes. Well, several people who, who were very experienced at theatre work.
JS: And Roy Broadbent, who was the father of Jim Broadbent he was a big part of the theatre wasn’t he?
DS: Yes. But it was, it was when he left, he left the community that I joined second of all. It’s when he left that I, that there were vacancies and they were getting the extra people in that I joined from the first, the first community.
JS: So, you went to Bleasby then?
DS: That’s right. Yes.
JS: With Dick Cornwallis and Robert Walshaw.
DS: Yes, but Walshaw wasn’t there. Walshaw had been there and left because he had the opportunity of joining a farm right in the southwest of England and it didn’t work out. And after I’d joined that second community he wrote to us asking if he could come [laughs] Come back. And we decided that he, that he could. He was welcome to come back.
JS: And his son still lives on the farm. He’s farmed it.
DS: Pardon?
JS: Chris is still, still lives on the farm and he’s farmed it hasn’t he?
DS: Yes. He has. Yes, well he lives on the farm but he doesn’t really do much.
JS: Any more.
DS: Work. It’s been passed, passed over for use by somebody who, who just developed a huge dairy farm.
DE: So, the communities were, were quite democratic. You sort of had votes about whether people could join or not.
DS: That’s right. Yes. The first, the first was. Was, we had we had a rough say in what happened but the second we were, we were all classed as equal people although we knew that the money was in the hands of mostly two people who eventually took it over and we were, we were told we could stay on with the terms which we could agree to. Which I did for quite a time.
DE: Yeah.
DS: Until I got this other job.
DE: So, if we can just go back a little bit to during the war you said that there were, there were Italian and then German POWs that sometimes worked alongside you. Did you have anything to do with any of the people from RAF Wickenby which was quite close I believe?
DS: No. What happened was that you had different groups of people among the Pacifists. Some were used to a different type of living and some were in the habit of going to pubs and some weren’t. Some were quite reversed and religious and you know they became preachers locally. Part time of course. And, and some of the others and they mostly came from the second community that I belonged to but some of them moved in to the, in to the other one which had developed into a, a varied group with different ideas and just fizzled away gradually. So, I didn’t have much, much contact with the err I never went to, to any of the of the pub gatherings which the others, others did and they really became much more in touch with the airmen and got on reasonably well with them apparently. But I never, I never saw that side of it at all because the aerodrome, you know the aerodrome disappeared soon after the war finished.
DE: How did you feel about being so close to, to the aerodrome?
DS: Well, it was more the Bleasby, the Bleasby farm that was really close and parts of it, gradually more was taken off the farm to be used by the Air Force. So because I I belonged to the community which was further away I didn’t see very, very much of the Air Force really.
DE: Ok.
DS: No.
JS: But you’d hear the aeroplanes.
DS: Oh yes. Yes. Of course, they took off at night time mostly and where they took off, and the direction they were going on the way to Germany would be, they would not pass where I was staying you see. So we didn’t see as much of them as you, as you might, might think really. We would hear them but not see them necessarily. And as far as I know there was not much bombing took place in Lincoln itself and very little where, where we were. I don’t know why but that seemed to be the case. There wasn’t much bombing took place but there were quite a lot of aerodromes all, all over Lincoln that, that did get, did get bombed. It was quite a, apart from the armament places which were one of the main places and the bombings that were done purely for the sake of killing as many people as possible which took part in London and other big cities. And that was sort of quite a long way from this area you see.
DE: Yeah.
DS: They just went for, for the big cities. I don’t think that Lincoln, you see we didn’t see much of Lincoln. We would never think of going in to Lincoln. There was no way of getting there. No, no coaches to take us.
JS: You worked very long hours, didn’t you?
DS: Pardon?
JS: You worked very long hours on the farm.
DS: Very?
JS: Long hours.
DS: Well, we had double summertime then. We had, we had, we had, so, so in the wintertime we we we were using the hours that we now use in summertime. So we changed, changed our clocks at the usual time but we were an hour ahead, an hour earlier in starting our summertime.
JS: And then you had to lock up the chickens later, didn’t it? I remember.
DS: It was midnight.
JS: Because you worked with the poultry later on. And that was your job.
DS: Yes.
JS: But pea harvest was quite something wasn’t it?
DS: Oh yes. Yes. That was, that was hard work. We used to have special things which we, we had props that we put up in the field and when we, when we cut the hay the [pause] would you call it hay? I don’t know. My memory.
JS: The pea stalks.
DS: Yes. We put, and take them into big round sheds so that the wind would get through and dry them all out more quickly than if you just left them on the ground. So that was all hand work. It was all hand work early on so, it made me stronger I suppose. Not that, I’ve never been big. I’ve never been, never weighed ten stone but I’ve, I’ve managed. It was a great experience really. It was a fine life. A fine life working together really. So, it was, it was a blessing to me really. But then I was also in the position of being in a safe, comparatively safe situation whereas so many of my friends at work had gone into the different forces in time and one in particular who was, hadn’t been married very long but was very tempted to register as a, as a conshy. He decided to join up and not long after he’d joined up he was killed. And I don’t, still don’t know how many of my friends at work came back. [pause] Unless this is something which people haven’t experienced they won’t, won’t understand. What war does to people. And why some people still think war is the answer.
DE: And you continue to campaign against war. I noticed on your door you have have an anti-war —
DS: Yes. Oh yes. Yes. I hope people will take the message but we leave it to other people now to do our dirty work [pause] And it tends to be romanticised.
DE: Can you tell me some of the ways that you’ve protested against war and tried to spread the message?
DS: Well, we, we still go down to the RAF and spread propaganda there.
JS: You’ve flown kites there haven’t you in solidarity with the Afghani kite flyers at Waddington, haven’t you?
DS: Yes. Yes. We go to Waddington.
JS: And you went to the different peace camps. You went to Molesworth.
DS: I don’t go anywhere now really.
JS: But you went to Faslane as well, didn’t you? When you went to the Quaker conference a few years ago in Scotland.
DS: Oh yes. Yes. My daughter, my daughter took us on a nice holiday in Scotland last year and the group fairly recently set up, we’d been to the performances. Have you been to any of the performances?
DE: I haven’t. I didn’t know about them until it was, it was too late. But can you tell me a bit about them?
DS: Well, it was, it was because this, this chappy who was I think the oldest member of the group who came to the area and met some of the original people in the community and since he, since in the few years that he’s been the area we’ve now only got one friend. One. One friend and there’s not just myself and one friend left who belonged but when he came there were two more alive who, who had belonged to the community. And so that’s how he’s been able to get all the information that’s gone in to the creation of this, this play which he’s written.
JS: Some of the other children from the community, one was a journalist and she’d done a lot of recordings. Sarah Farley who, who I grew up with and also one of the Makins did also some interviews. He wrote about it. So, Ian Sharp used these memories as well as interviewing you and Arthur Adams and Phil Farley to make the play.
DS: Well, I, it’s a little uncertain at the moment as to, as to whether there will be another production but I’ll be sure and let you know.
DE: That would be wonderful because it, it was, it was shown at the Edinburgh Fringe and it was shown at the Broadbent Theatre as well, wasn’t it? It was put on there.
DS: It’s been several times at the Broadbent Theatre and that’s where its likely to be shown again.
JS: And recently it’s been on at Quaker meeting houses. And this autumn we went a fortnight ago, didn’t we to Doncaster meeting, the Quaker meeting house which was the last performance.
DS: Yeah. It’s been held at various Quaker meeting houses.
JS: The meeting would have known about it.
DS: Not with, not with the large attendances as we might have had.
JS: In Chesterfield there was a very good turnout. A lot of the people from CND were there and one of the men was ex-RAF that we spoke to that’s a big part of CND because when we were children you belonged to CND and we used to protest didn’t we then?
DS: Yes.
JS: Carried placards and that was how you carried on campaigning for peace.
DS: Yes. I don’t know to what extent young people are interested in peace making. What do, what do you think? Do you think they take a real interest in peace making?
DE: I think it’s because to a lot of people wars today are, are quite far away. They’re quite removed and they don’t have the real experience. I think that’s probably the problem. It’s something that happens to other people who it’s too easy to forget about. I don’t know. What, what do you think?
DS: Yes. I agree with you but I’m not so much in touch with people as you probably are and I might see one, one side of it.
JS: Well, when we’re in a recession the rise of nationalism is always worrying, isn’t it? You know, like in Germany the war started because of recession and when you get a current situation that’s very much saying you know people from other countries aren’t welcome even though they, our country wouldn’t function without them it’s, it can make people fearful that that people from other countries are enemies rather than just our neighbours.
DS: Yes. I, I’m very disappointed with the general attitude of people in the UK now that we should think about ourselves and not about the world as a whole. And we’re all so interdependent. I think it’s only now when we, it’s been revealed to us the dangers of not working together. And yet we’ve still got people fighting one another. Actually, wasting the parts that are valuable.
JS: Well, the politics and the economics of war where countries sell arms to countries that are then used against them is totally absurd.
[pause]
DS: I I don’t know much about it but you’ve probably heard the report of what, when we’ve had meetings at Bomber Command. Have, have you, do you, do you get a note of what’s happening there as far as our meetings there go?
DE: Sometimes I do. Yes. I think mostly its Heather gets involved with those. Those things. But yeah, I know there have been several meetings because we’re thinking about changing parts of the exhibition up there.
DS: Well, it’s the room upstairs which is, the idea is to develop that more isn’t it?
DE: That’s correct. Yes. Yeah. I mean that part of the, that gallery at the Bomber Command Centre has tried to tell the story about how the war has been remembered and how that feeds in to wars and conflicts today.
DS: Yes.
DE: I’d just, I’d just would like to have a go at it and try and make it a bit better.
JS: I mean the title to me is so to me alienating of the place that —
DS: Well, you haven’t been to it, have you?
JS: No. No. But if it was combined with, with something that was promoting peace as well.
DE: Well, that’s what we’re trying to do —
JS: Yes.
DE: In part of it and we have tried quite, well, you’d, you’d have to go judge how successfully but we’ve not tried to glorify war.
JS: No. No.
DE: We’ve tried to show it from all perspectives and we’ve tried to show the shared suffering and sacrifice —
JS: Yeah. Absolutely.
DE: Of people in the air, on the ground and on both sides.
JS: It’s not about who’s right and wrong.
DE: No.
JS: It’s not a, you know —
DE: No.
JS: It’s not a divisive thing, is it? It’s —
DS: It’s unfortunate that my, my, I had my stroke, stroke it’s affected my memory so much that I can’t express myself as well as I would have liked to.
JS: But for a hundred years old you don’t too badly.
DS: A hundred years [laughs] years young you mean.
JS: And we had, we had three versions of the play to celebrate your hundredth anniversary, didn’t we? There were special performances where you had, where the play was adapted. It’s been a changing thing but it’s —
DS: It’s not been very well lately.
JS: The theme of it became more climate. The threat now of climate changes.
DE: Right.
JS: So, it’s like it’s a changing movement towards what is most close to, to causing harm to populations.
DS: Yes. And you’ve got, you’ve got countries which are a long way from here much much bigger than us and it must be extremely difficult for those people to feel they’ve got any say in in what happens. [pause] Whereas I don’t know how, how much the countries in the, in the UK area and a bit further away from us how much feeling we have of any sort of control of what the future is going to be. Are we just dragged along by some invisible force? Out of control. Is there a meaningful, meaningful force bringing us along in the right direction or are we at the mercy of something the invisible which is hiding us from the right direction? [pause]
DS: What difference do you think the election will make or could make?
DE: I I have no idea. No.
DS: I’m very disturbed at the number of people who don’t use their vote to say where they want to go. And I think that’s the most disappointing thing about the present day that people don’t feel how vital it is that we have a say in what, in what future we’re going to have.
DE: Yeah. I think, I think I’m going to pause it there.
[recording paused]
JS: Well, we got a knock on our door one winter night by Malcolm Bates who wanted to re-establish the theatre. He was an adopted son of a Lincolnshire family. So, they started rehearsing didn’t they at Faldingworth and did, “Oliver.” You were in “Oliver.”
DS: Yes.
JS: And Helen was in Oliver, my sister and a lot of the community people were in it as well as others.
DS: But it was in the big sort of big building which was used for accommodation for the for the conshies working at the other area of Lincoln. That was, that was where some of the first meetings and the cinema items items were done in the, in the early days because there were several people who had been used to performing as actors or actresses. So we were very fortunate that we had these people who were quite experienced and very very able and were able to draw other people in who hadn’t actually belonged to the community but were interested in plays that it was able to be, to to fill up and then to have our own theatre which was the generosity of one particular person that we got, got the place when prices were not so high as they, as they’ve become now that we were able to to get this which is still on the go. How long it’ll last for I don’t know because I think all the original people now must have died because it’s a long time since it began. They used to have a theatre at, at the [unclear] at least theatre company at at the main place. [pause] Well, I’ll be very interested in hearing what ideas you have about developing the complex. I, I’ve never actually got as far, so far as going through all the list of deaths shown at the Memorial.
DE: There’s only a few people who have because there are, there’s fifty seven thousand names there so.
DS: I know, but I mean I know the names of all the people who, you know, the full names of all the people who, who were with me when I worked and who, who were called up. And I know some of them went into the Air Force so I might have a record as to whether any of them were killed or not. But then there must be, if there’s a complete list of, of soldiers and other types of people. I don’t I don’t know what that would be. How much room it would take up to put all the names of the various soldiers who were killed. It would be a huge list wouldn’t it because I would, I would think there were probably more of other different types of soldiers than the Air Force.
DE: Yes. I don’t know if they’re all collected in one place actually physically but the Commonwealth War Graves Commission would have —
DS: Yes.
DE: All the names available on the internet. Right. I I think I’m going to, I’m going stop the recording there so I will just say that also present in the room, the other voice on the recording was Don’s daughter Janet Sutherland. Thank you very much, Don. That was absolutely wonderful. Thank you.
DS: My pleasure.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Don Sutherland. Two
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-12-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASutherlandD191211, PSutherlandD1901
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:07:34 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Description
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Don was brought up in Newcastle, where he worked for a number of years. He attended a meeting a year before the war began, about alternatives to war and that war didn’t have to be accepted as inevitable. Don joined a community which organised work on a farm in Lincolnshire. After two years he transferred to another similar community, where he remained for about 25 years. Everyone was classed as equal and could vote on who could join this community. Don described everyday life in the community and farm work throughout the seasons. His favourite job was looking after and driving the horses. He worked with poultry for a while and also remembered the pea harvest. RAF Wickenby was one of the nearest airfields to the commune. They had four German prisoners of war working with them, one of whom kept in touch with Don after the war. Don campaigned against war and would sometimes go to the RAF Waddington with anti-war propaganda. A play had been produced about the pacifists, which was shown at the Broadbent Theatre and also at Quaker Meeting Houses.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1941
animal
entertainment
faith
home front
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
RAF Waddington
RAF Wickenby
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/1564/PBriggsDW1701.1.jpg
0ddb6a37aec4aa568c806c57545b57bd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/1564/ABriggsDW170327.1.mp3
154ae8a60c9fc85e03bb0d4e30404e55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Briggs, Donald
Donald W Briggs
D W Briggs
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
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2017-03-27
Identifier
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Briggs, DW
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with flight engineer Donald Ward Briggs (1924 - 2018), his logbook, memoirs and 16 wartime and post war photographs. He completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders flying from RAF Upwood. Post war, Donald Briggs retrained as a pilot flying Meteors and Canberras. He eventually joined the V-Force on Valiants and was the co-pilot for the third British hydrogen bomb test at Malden Island in 1957.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Donald Briggs and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PJ: My name is Pete Jones. I’m interviewing Flight Lieutenant Donald Briggs DFC. Other people attending are Sandra Jones, Pete Jones and Ann Kershaw. It is Monday the 27th of March 2017 and we are in Mr Briggs’ home in Freeland, Oxfordshire. Thank you Donald for agreeing to be interviewed for the IBCC. Donald, now tell me about your early years before you joined up Bomber Command.
DB: Right. Thank you Peter. Well, I was brought up in a small village called Lealholm which was about ten miles from Whitby on the north east coast and my parents ran the village post office and general stores and I, I used to help out while I was a teenager and that sort of thing and then I went to, I went to Whitby County School, a good grammar school and I did five years there but I decided that having seen some advertising literature for the air force and apprenticeships at RAF Halton, and so I applied and then I sat the entrance exam and got through all right, and this was as things were building up towards World War Two. And so the Royal Air Force were recruiting ground servicing personnel in pretty large numbers. At this time I was a fifteen year old and so I saw my chance to learn all about aircraft and what, how you put them together and so on and so I applied for the examination as I said. And I joined at Halton on two days after the war was declared. And that was on the 5th of September 1939. And so there is little doubt that the harsh discipline at Halton coupled with excellent theoretical lessons in schools, and the schools were known as Kermode Hall after the well-known Kermode, the aerodynamicist and he used to teach there actually, and many hours filing pieces of metal in workshops. And it turned boys into men and later in the course we worked in teams stripping down and re-assembling many types of aero engines and at the end of the training which was reduced a bit because of being wartime, and there was a great demand for fitters out in the units, in the fighting units. So my first posting was at RAF Finningley which is about ten miles from Doncaster. And I worked there on the engines of Wellington bombers and Hampden bombers and the Rolls Royce Vulture engines in the Avro Manchester and they, they gave a lot of trouble and er, which meant there were several engine changes that I assisted in. And the next posting was to RAF Upper Heyford where I was promoted to corporal at the age of eighteen. Now there I worked on the Wellington Mark 3 with more powerful Hercules engines and after carrying out rectification on an aircraft if an air test was necessary I usually asked if I could accompany the pilot. Which I did on several occasions and after approximately two and a half years I decided that more excitement was needed so I volunteered for air crew. The president of the selection board said that I had passed all the tests to become a pilot, but the waiting list for pilots was pretty lengthy and also there was a little demand, this was mid-1943 and the commanding officer of the board interviewing, the selection board er he, he said, ‘Now look you’re already a technician, a fitter 2E,’ he said, ‘And what we need is flight engineers,’ and so he said, ‘You want to, you’ll be on operations within six months. You do want to fight don’t you?’ And of course I had to say, ‘Yes. Of course I do,’ and that’s how I became a flight engineer, by passing the course at Royal Air Force St Athan in Wales. Now, during this crewing up procedure when I finished my training I was sent to Lindholme near Doncaster. I was fortunate in meeting the captain of the crew that I was to fly with. He was Flying Officer Bill Neal with his crew and they had already completed a tour of operations on Wellingtons. Now Bill explained that they had been selected to join the Pathfinder force and what our duties would entail. Our first step was to convert on to the Halifax Mark 1 because these were ex beaten up old war, operational aircraft that had seen better days, and so we had to train on them and during our training sorties, Bill Neal gave me a potted flying lesson so that the very, very first aircraft I flew was the Halifax. And that flew alright and I got the hang of how to fly straight and level and do gentle turns and so on, but we completed the course of thirty hours and went on to convert on to the Lancaster at RAF Hemswell, north of Lincoln. Or nearer to Gainsborough actually. I did the night conversion on to the Lancaster on my twentieth birthday, would you believe? And after attending a short course to learn the Pathfinder procedures we joined number 156 squadron Pathfinders at RAF Upwood near Peterborough. And as a new crew we had two weeks of training to complete during which time I took on the additional role of bomb aimer. I was taught how to run up on the, set the bomb sight up to start with and, and then how to run up and give corrections to the pilot, running up to the dropping point, aiming point. And we dropped practice bombs at a nearby bombing range which I seemed to get the hang of quite, quite well. And also during this time Bill Neal vacated his seat. There were no dual control Lancasters on squadrons you see, just a single set of controls in the left hand seat for the captain, but he allowed me to fly this superb aircraft, the Lancaster. And on completion of this training we were declared operational and on the 11th of June 1944, we saw that our crew was on the battle order. All a bit, a bit terrifying for a new chap like myself. The target was vast marshalling yards at Tours in the south of France. The Germans were routing most of their reinforcements through here to the Normandy battlefront. Now, on this particular trip we had a couple of night fighter sightings and attacks and Bill Neal being a terrific pilot he corkscrewed and got rid of them. The whole secret was if you had a rear gunner with such good night vision and if he saw the night fighter before he saw you, then you stood a fairly decent chance of getting away without, without disaster. Well, firstly I volunteered for aircrew and I was fully committed now. There was no turning back. Anybody that did turn back were, were called lack of moral fibre and they were, they were given the most terrible mucky jobs that you could ever imagine. And so, but anyway I stuck with it and destiny would decide whether or not I survived. And secondly I was fortunate in joining a very experienced crew and they all made me a welcome addition to the crew. They had not flown previously with a flight engineer because the Wellington didn’t need one and so on. I should explain that in Pathfinder crews the reason the flight engineers took on the extra duty of visual bomb aimer was that the primary bomb aimer operated the H2S radar, and a lot of our targets relied on this for identification and running up and so on. Now 156 Squadron were primarily a blind marker squadron which meant that if no target indicator flares were seen by the master bomber, he would call for blind markers to be dropped and they were reds which is where we came in. And they would be seen cascading and so on, and give an initial aiming point for the main force of bombers running in. The master bomber would then know that the markers were dropped blind and the target had not been visually identified. But on the very first operation we were about to fly we were part of the illuminating force, and we carried twelve rather large hooded parachute flares. And you drop all twelve together and that was like turning the target into a daylight. The visually illuminated target so they were able to, to identify the aiming point, the master bomber. We had a master bomber and his deputy and he had a dicey job. He used to go right down to about four thousand feet and circle around and a very dangerous job. Some of them didn’t make it and were shot down. And on the first ten operations mostly dropping flares, and on — I was mentioning earlier about the run in to the Tours marshalling yards we had two night fighter attacks and we thought actually that — we heard later that these were night fighter pilots that were training down in France so they weren’t sort of fully, fully operational like their counterparts in, up in Germany and Holland and so on. And so it was a great feeling to be safely on the ground back at our Upwood base and I often used to say to my colleagues, my — well between us we’ve said we climbed up that ladder of the Lancaster at the back end where you board the aircraft, not knowing whether we’d ever be in the position to come back, climb down it again on to terra firma so — but happily I did that sixty-two times. Gratefully rather, I survived those to, climb down that ladder again. And I, our crew was sent on Allied support for the ground forces on the Normandy battlefront and we dropped sticks of one thousand pounders, fourteen bombs in a rapid stick of bombs from only four thousand feet. And the aircraft shook very badly with the blast as you’d expect at that height, and we could see the blast rings coming up from other people’s bombs as well. And we also attacked the V1 launch sights in the Pas-de-Calais area. And the, we formation, six Lancasters formatted on a Mosquito aircraft which was equipped with this very accurate blind bombing system called Oboe. They, they used that for, some of the Pathfinder squadrons used it for marking targets as well. So that when his bomb doors opened we opened ours and when we saw the bombs leave his bomb bay we hit our bomb release button and, as you can imagine that was a lot of bombs going down, usually finishing up in rendering the buzz bombs site unusable. And that must have saved a lot of lives in the, around London. And my first German target was Hamburg, and that was our thirteenth op. And it was quite a, quite a dicey town. Very heavily defended of course as always was Hamburg, being a major port and ship building and that. But we came through the barrage unscathed. My skipper always used to say, ‘What you see in the sky is what’s been, the flak bursts and they’re not going to do us any harm. It’s the ones you can’t see that er.’ But anyway, night fighters were of course were in the area, and we saw several bombers going down in flames, and erm, it was a sickening sight and we, er, sort of sympathised with our colleagues and comrades. They would meet their end in a fireball from bombs and fuel when they hit the ground. It was a sickening sight but we made a note of its position and we got on with our own job. And there wasn’t much else you could do. [pause] Bill Neal, my skipper, always said to me, ‘Don,’ he said, ‘when we’ve finished our tour of operations,’ not if but when, he said, ‘I’m going to put you up for commissioning and,’ he said, ‘Then you can join the rest of us in the officer’s mess.’ So I said, ‘Oh well that’s good. Pleased to hear that,’ and sure enough that’s what happened. After I’d done forty operations and about the end of my first tour and I had an interview with Air Vice Marshall, Don Bennett up at Pathfinder headquarters and he was satisfied and so I became Pilot Officer Don Briggs. And erm, so the — I carried on with Bill because he was awarded the DFC because he’d already, that completed two tours of operations having done one before I met him. So what one more tour and of course usually, certainly a skipper got the DFC. And, but I’ll just tell you during a daylight operation to a target called Kleve in October ’44, we had a flak burst right on the port wing tip. And it, we thought it was really the end, you know, because it was that close. And it damaged the aileron quite badly on the port side, but we still had, skipper had control of the aircraft well and with his amazing piloting skill brought us back to a safe landing back at Upwood. But there was substantial damage, the aileron was, was in a terrible mess. And I pressed on in to my second tour with Bill apart from one operation with another crew as their flight engineer had completed his tour of operations. And one of which was with the squadron commander, one of these battlefront operations, and I had the gunnery leader, the squadron leader was — I was on the bomb sight at the front, and he was in the front turret with his legs, and one of his legs was in plaster. He’d, he’d broken a leg or done something, and in plaster, and this was rubbing on my ear as I was trying to aim bombs and he was swivelling around the front turret which normally wasn’t manned at all. And so that was about it. I’m happy to say that despite several very close shaves, I came through sixty two operations unscathed. Lady Luck was certainly on my side. Bill Neal pressed on with another flight engineer and notched up just short of a hundred ops and he was awarded the DSO and he’d already got the DFC. And the French awarded him the Croix de Guerre, and I’m eternally grateful to Bill for getting me through the most dangerous period of my life. He made sure that my operational record was recognised resulting in the award of the DFC in July 1945. I’ve got a few statistics here which are, to save boring everybody, the number of French targets that we did was twenty-four but German targets exceeded that. Thirty-eight we did to German targets. Forty-one of those were night operations and we did twenty-one daylight operations some of which were daylight ops on Ruhr targets in the hell’s, what do they call it? Hell’s valley or something? Happy valley. That was it. And forty-one of those operations we had our own Lancaster which was GT J-Johnny. And so we flew that and of course that meant our own ground crew and we got to know them pretty well. Of those ops we did three raids on oil refineries, because the Germans were desperately short of fuel towards the end of the war and you can’t run a war machine without fuel. And the V1 sights we did, five of those attacks I was telling you about and five on the battlefront and, and then four on marshalling yards. Ruhr targets. Yes ten. We did ten of those and four in daylight, and my last thirty operations were all German targets. Now, it was a massive relief as you can imagine to have survived all those ops and great to be able to enjoy end of second tour leave with my parents and four younger brothers. I’m the eldest of five. So that ended my wartime contribution to the, to the war effort and I, after the war I was selected for Transport Command and flew on Yorks as a flight engineer going out to India and the Far East. And did that for a couple of years and then was posted to the Empire Test Pilot School at Farnborough and I got some valuable experience there. Only the very, very best of pilots were selected and of course we had exchange officers from America, from the United States Air Force and also the US navy. They sent a representative to the, representative to the empire test pilots course. And a lot of those test pilots that I flew with under training they became, you know, top test pilots for the different companies. And so a very interesting three years out, flying Lincolns and things mostly. And after that I was posted to Manby in Lincolnshire where I met an ex-Pathfinder wing commander and he advised me if I wanted to take pilot training, re-train as a pilot, I should write him a letter which I did. And he must have found it fairly satisfactory ‘cause he, he had me to London, to Hornchurch for a selection board and I passed everything there, all the aptitude tests and so on. And very soon in the summer of ’51, late summer, I started training as a pilot at RAF Ternhill in Shropshire and that was — I enjoyed every minute, every minute of that. It was wonderful. And so er, I passed out from there, graduated and awarded those prestigious pilot’s wings that, all RAF pilots remember being presented with their wings. And so I’ll lead on later to describe my, what, what the, what my path through the peacetime air force was. Right. Now. In the August of 1951, I was allowed to start my conversion to retrain as a pilot. And so I promptly, having got furnished accommodation for Edith and we had two children then and, in Louth, and I used to travel across to Ternhill in Shropshire. So the first two weeks of the course naturally was ground school and exams and all the rest of it. And then we started flying, and the aircraft then for training was the Percival Prentice which was a lumbering old thing, but you could do, you could do sort of basic aerobatics with it and so I went solo on that. My instructor sent me off on my own after about four or five hours. Something like that. And then I did sixty hours on the jet, Percival Provost and then I went on to Harvards and that was a wonderful machine to fly. A very big powerful five hundred and fifty horsepower engine in front of you and not easy to see when you’re flowing out for landing. The engine gets in the way, you’ve got to sort of look over the side a little bit. Anyway, I loved flying the Harvard and completed the course and did my final handling test and so on and graduated for my pilot’s wings presented by some air vice marshall and so I’ve still got the photograph. I trained with a lot of chaps that were engineering officers and they were sort of doing a seconded tour in the general duties flying branch just before going back on to engineering. And so from there it was a question of advanced training over at Oakington in Cambridgeshire, and the Meteor was the standard trainer for jet conversion. I had a French instructor of the French Armee de L’air, and George Golee [?]sent me on my first solo in a Meteor Mark 7 and that was enjoyable and went very well. And the, then working my way through the course — the one thing that I didn’t enjoy too much was at night climbing above thirty thousand feet unpressurised and I had a pretty bad attack of the bends. And ask anybody what the, what that’s like and all your joints, it’s the nitrogen that comes out in the joints of your, everywhere knees, ankles the whole lot, so you can only spend a few minutes above thirty. However, and down we came, and the one thing about the Meteor was when you’d been up high everything used to mist up on the inside so you’re sort of rubbing frantically to be able to see out for the landing. However, that was ok and I passed my final handling test with the wing commander, chief instructor and he seemed quite pleased with my performance and he, on landing, after landing offered me the chance of going straight back to Central Flying School to become a flying instructor. Like what we would call in the service creamed off. Creamed off CFS. Now I politely declined and said I was flattered and so on, but I would like to proceed to a Canberra squadron. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Yes, that’s fine just I was giving you the chance, you know.’ So that’s what I did, and I proceeded to Bassingbourn to convert on to Canberras, and in those days there was no dual controlled Canberra. You just had to ride alongside someone on the, what we used to call the rumble seat, and er, see what he did and make a note of the speeds and everything, and then on the second trip he would climb out and look up through the hatch and raise his thumb and say are you happy, and all the rest of it and off I went. Well I think somebody else had control, namely the almighty I think had control of that Canberra on take-off. They er, it was so steep, but anyway. I enjoyed my first, first solo and certainly strange having to fly an aircraft where you’d never handled the controls previously, anyway. And so from there I was posted right up to Lincolnshire to, to join 10 Squadron. We were just forming the first Canberra squadron at Scampton. And we, straightaway I was made a flight commander and in charge of all the servicing and so on, on the eight Canberras. And so we, we got on pretty well and the Canberra’s a wonderful aircraft to fly. Quite light on the controls and plenty of power there and so on. And we did lots of exercises, and I always remember on my first early night flying we were, couldn’t land back at Scampton because of bad weather and we were diverted down in to Cornwall to then St Eval which is just near, just north of Newquay. And the trouble with St Eval is that the runway is up high on the cliffs and you come, you come right in on the approach and this was at night and remember, and I hadn’t flown at night for quite some time and coming in over these cliffs and the runway itself had a great big hump in the middle so you could only see half of it when you touched down. And then happily the final half of the runway came into view as you went over the hump. But I got away with it alright, and so and then of course we spent the night and went back to Scampton the following day. My, my time at Scampton involved quite a lot of diversions. There was once we were diverted up to Kinloss in Scotland. And the Canberra had a fairly good performance for, for the time in the air, endurance as we called it. And so during that time on Canberras my boss was, he was an ex-flight commander over at Binbrook on Canberras, and he was promoted and took over 10 Squadron. And Punch Howard [?] was a great Mosquito night fighter ace and he used to go over these German night fighter airfields and fire off the colours of the day and join in the circuit and shoot down two or three night fighters by doing so. And for this he got the DFC and the DFC and bar as well. And so he set up a formation display team and he gave me a check for my formation flying, and he was happy so I joined his team. And we used to give displays up and down the country and there was one in particular when the National Air Races were on at Coventry airport. And so we gave this display and they gave us a good write up in the flight magazine and also a very congratulatory letter from the president of the Royal Aero Club, which I’ve still got a copy. And so that was, that was my forte if you like on 10 Squadron and from there I, we were actually moved over to East Anglia to, to 3 Group at Honington, RAF Honington near Bury St Edmunds actually. And so I spent about three or four months there before they suddenly came up with a posting and I was to be one of the first pilots to join the new V bomber force on Valiants. The, the courses were starting at RAF Gaydon near Leamington Spa, and so I joined as a co-pilot for Squadron Leader Arthur Steele, who later became air commodore. And so we were posted initially to 138 Squadron at Wittering and Edith was — we actually couldn’t get married quarters, they hadn’t built, they hadn’t finished building them so we lived in an old country hall called Rushington Hall. And so the, it was a wonderful old place, and we had one wing of the place to ourselves and it had a lounge half the size of a hangar. And the boys used to ride around on their tricycles up and down the corridors in this thing, this place. But it was, it was good and then by the time we’d spent three or four months there we were given a married quarter at Wittering and we, there we stayed in that for a good five or six years. Then 138 Squadron was the first squadron to form on Valiants of course but then they were forming a new squadron, 49, 49 Squadron to do the Grapple operation. That was the H bomb trials in the pacific from Christmas Island and our crew, Arthur Steele that is, and myself and the rest of the crew, were selected and in the April, sorry in the March of 1957 we all flew out to Christmas Island via Canada. Goose Bay first and then Edmonton, Alberta and then down to San Francisco where we spent a couple of days, and were able to do some sightseeing and exploring in the good old San Francisco. And then the big leg from there to Honolulu was against headwinds normally and we could work out that providing that the headwinds weren’t greater than sixty knots we were ok. We had enough fuel to get there and a little bit to spare. But and as it happened on the day the winds were lighter than that so we were fine. So it was, Arthur Steele was a good skipper. He used to share the landings with me and if it was my turn come hell or high water I would do it and the one at Honolulu was at Hickam air force base and you come right in over Pearl Harbour on the final approach. So that was, I couldn’t look for very, very long I’m afraid, just a quick glance. And so we had a lovely time and it happened to fall on St Patrick’s Day when we were in and of course there was a big, the Americans celebrate that pretty well and we had, they entertained us very well in the officer’s club. And a couple of days later we flew down the thousand mile leg to the south of Christmas Island. Now, the runway had been built by the army, The Royal Engineers and they’d made a good job of it. It was quite a, not a tremendously long runway, but it was long enough just over two thousand yards. And that’s where we prepared for our H bomb drop. So we saw the first one, Squadron Commander Ken Hubbard he dropped the first and Dave Roberts the flight commander he dropped number two and it was our turn for number three. So we’d all prepared and done the drills and so on, the dropping drills. Now, I want to emphasise that we didn’t drop these H bombs and they went into the sea. They burst at eight thousand feet. So there was no, no fallout like some of the previous tests had done by well, say the Americans perhaps or the Japanese they, well, no the Japanese didn’t have it in those days. However, the, there was no fallout and the, but we took ours, it was on June the 19th ‘57 and the yield wasn’t quite as much as the scientists wanted but it was good enough and they were, the British government were then able to specify, say, Britain now can become the, have the facility of nuclear deterrent. The nuclear fallout, nuclear bomb. And so there was to be a fourth, but that was cancelled and we all came the reverse route and flew home. And flew back to Wittering and so that was, that was Operation Grapple. And so we, we settled down and then I, after that, shortly, short time after that I became a captain on the Valiant and posted back to 138 Squadron. [pause] After completing my tour as a Valiant captain which I enjoyed very much, I used to get trips out to Nairobi and did Salisbury which is now called Harare, I think. And er, Germany. I did several trips there with the Valiant and my co-pilot was an ex-fighter pilot, been stationed in Germany so he was able to show us how to get on there in our leisure time. We then, I was posted to Gaydon, as I said and became a ground school instructor on the Victor mark two. Wonderful aircraft, well built and it had all the then high tech, what was high tech in those days, you wouldn’t call it that now. And I used to teach that, and for doing that they allowed me to do first of all the pressured breathing course, because the Victor two would go up to fifty-two, fifty- three thousand feet and if you had an explosive decompression there you were, you were automatically on pressure breathing to get down to forty thousand as quick as possible. So having completed that which, which, which was a bit rigorous, I was able to do the flight simulator on the Victor two and then fly with the OCU instructors. OCU being Operational Conversion Unit which was at Cottesmore. So I, I enjoyed about six flights from either the captain’s seat or the co-pilot’s seat and enjoyed very much flying the Victor and streaming the great big parachute on landing. And you’d swear that somebody had clamped the brakes hard on when you streamed that, fantastic thing and I was later to come across it of course on the Vulcan. So that was the Victor two. Now, from there I was decided to do the central flying school course at Little Rissington. Near Bourton on the Water that was and so I did the course and qualified and became a flying instructor and was posted to Syerston, which was a flying training school near Newark in Nottinghamshire. And there I, I was checked out by the standards people, and allowed to instruct on the aircraft. And my first bunch of students, there was one of them who was particularly good material and tremendous potential and I could tell the way he was flying I only had to show him something once and he had it off pat, absolutely as good as I could show him. And that gentleman was called Brian Hoskins and he later, in later years joined the Red Arrows. He was a member of the team to start with when they were flying the Gnat and then he became leader, and converted them from the Gnat on to the Hawk which they use now of course. And so he led the Red Arrows for, for a couple of years so I’m rather proud of the fact that I helped train him and taught him his first aerobatics and formation flying, which was pretty essential for being in the Red Arrows as you can imagine. So, anyway I enjoyed my tour and I was promised to have a double tour on instructing on the Jet Provost, and I was just enjoying every minute. However, that was not to be. Because I, because I had previous V bomber experience they posted me up to Finningley, where I was to do the Vulcan course. The Vulcan Mark two and so once, once I was trained and finished the course as a Vulcan captain and I went to, you say, call it solo if you like but strangely enough I had an American colonel for my co-pilot on my first trip in a Vulcan. And first trip as captain anyway and he he’d done a tour in Vietnam had this chap, so a very accomplished pilot. And so after that I had to do a short spell of a year or so in the flight simulator, because having an instructor rating of course you need to establish familiarity and the checklist and emergencies in the flight simulator before they actually did the flying. However, they said, ‘Well don’t get too downhearted about it,’ he said, ‘When you’ve done this short spell in the simulator we’ll groom you for stardom Donald and you’ll be given the flying instructor course on Vulcans.’ And that’s how I became a Vulcan flying instructor initially, and they cut, I had to cut my teeth on some young co-pilots who were converting from the right hand seat to the left hand seat just for, they were from squadrons of course. And it meant that they were fairly flexible and they could, providing their captain could, could fly from the right hand seat they would, they would do that. And so and then I went on to take a whole crew, a full crew. And I trained some fairly senior officers, the odd wing commander that was taking over a squadron or a station, a group captain who would be taking over a Vulcan station and so give them the course and and I had some, I had some nasty experiences at night particularly with training, training co-pilots. And they failed to recognise that in a Vulcan once you allowed the speed to fall the Vulcan was, became a high drag machine and it dropped out of the sky very quickly. And so of course being instructors we could recognise this fairly quickly to take control and save the situation as it were. And I had to do this on more than one occasion. At night particularly. Sorry. [recording paused] After completing my tour on the Vulcan OCU as an instructor, I was given my own crew. And we were posted out to Cyprus on to Number nine squadron and I was to become the squadron QFI and then carry out normal duties of a squadron crew as well. So that was wonderful. Edith and I flew out on a VC10 from Brize Norton and the rest of my crew found their way out there somehow. And one of my crew, his wife played the piano, and I’ll just tell you this. You can have a good laugh. She, they managed to even to fly this piano out to Cyprus on some transport aircraft, a Belfast or something. And so anyway, we settled down and we had a very nice hiring in Limassol itself and that was until a married quarter came up and, which it did. After about three months we moved up on to the base into a very nice married quarter and there I continued my, my tour on the squadron and it was very enjoyable. We were able to — if we weren’t flying in the morning we were free to go at about one o’clock and after lunch we were on the beach taking in the sunshine and the nice, in the lagoons swimming. Swimming by the rocks and so on, in the crystal clear water. It was lovely really. It was like a paid holiday. And so that’s how I finished my air force service. I came out in 1973 and I was given a nice send off in the, in the officers mess, dining in night. And so we, Edith and I we’d bought a Volvo car and I was hoping to get it in duty free, but to get a car in from overseas duty free you’d got to have it over a year and I’d only had this Volvo about six months so I knew I was going to have to pay duty on it. However, we drove home. Got the ferry to Athens and then we drove, various little ferries from a place on the mainland to Corfu. And we spent three nice days in Corfu and then on to Brindisi and we drove up the east coast of Italy to, past Venice and up to almost before you cross the St Bernard’s, St Bernard’s pass. There was no tunnels in those days. And that’s how we got home for a series of ferries and arriving home and we still had our place in Doncaster and we sort of tried to settle down as civilians, which was rather strange because when you become a civilian after thirty-five years of air force service you, you feel you’ve lacked that sort of cushion, that cocoon. You’re cocooned in a, in a sort of safe situation in the services and you’ve got to, you’re out in to the big, big world out there to try and make a living. Well I started off by trying to sell insurance from door to door and I got blown out of many a place and without selling anything. And so that turned out to be a dead loss and we tried looking around for a post office and we found one in York. We actually had bought a property now, a new bungalow in York which was very nice. And we ran this post office for, oh I guess about three or four months, and we were going to buy it from the present owner and he must have fallen foul of the head post master of York because he said that, ‘If you sell that,’ he said, ‘I’ll close it down.’ And so we couldn’t, we couldn’t have that and I settled into an insurance office job which wasn’t very exciting. Now, some member of the family was doing a course at Kidlington Airport near Oxford and he said, ‘Donald, why don’t you get yourself down there and get a commercial licence and they want you as a flying instructor,’ and I did just that. It took me about three months and I finished up as a commercial flying instructor on the Oxford Air Training School. And there I did fourteen years and trained many pilots for the commercial airlines, British Airways included, Aer Lingus, British Midland, Singapore Airlines and many others. And it was very enjoyable and rewarding. The, the ones I didn’t have much joy with were the Algerians. They were a bit of a peculiar lot but, however I retired then after fourteen years and I still went on flying at RAF Halton, where my service life started of course in 1939. So I joined the Microlight Flying Club and they immediately enrolled me as their chief flying instructor so I did a bit more instructing on microlights, and not the weight shift, I wouldn’t fly those. These microlights were proper stick and rudder aircraft and so on. And so I was happy with that, and it just so happened I trained a couple of air marshals. They came through and wanted checking out on microlights so, so I flew with them and a very nice situation. And I went on flying those until I was eighty four and then I thought well I’ve just about had enough. I think I’ll. I’ll give it up now, the flying, and so I haven’t flown since and we are now in 2017. So, so, [laughs] right. However I’ve had a very, very enjoyable flying career and I’ve got a lot, a lot to be thankful for. So that’s the end of my little broadcast. Thank you.
SJ: So did you have any, in all the times you were flying, did you have any lucky mascots or superstitions.
DB: Oh well no, not really. I tend, you tend to sort of get into a habit so that you know if you do something — I can’t give you a quote somehow I can’t sort of think of much that, that would, would do it. But I think you know you make preparations. It doesn’t matter what sort of flight you do you’ve got to prepare for it and otherwise you know if you just go leaping off without checking anything. Now, you see some of the material I could give the people who are coming after this. I’ve got one that the BBC did on me. They came out to Halton and checked. I mean I don’t want to waste time now showing it to you. I could, it only runs for about three minutes anyway but it was on BBC South Today and Geraldine Peers have you, do you remember her?
SJ: Yeah. Know her.
DB: She started, she introduced it and there was Jeremy Stern did the interview.
PJ: You’re quite a celebrity then Donald.
DB: Oh yeah. Well, I was at the time.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: I don’t think many people would remember it but the, and then they edited it and Frank Sinatra, “Come Fly With Me,” you know, it sounds, it sounds quite good and you see me take off in the latest microlight. It was a lovely craft called the Sky Ranger.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And I mean we, my brother Malcolm helped to build it. He did all the instrument layout of that. You’ve flown in that with me haven’t you?
AK: Yes.
DB: No, you flew in -
AK: I flew with my head down.
DB: I’ve forgotten. That was the Thruster we flew in.
AK: Oh right.
DB: I don’t think you ever flew in that Sky Ranger. No.
AK: And never again.
DB: Oh I taught you. I gave you a potted flying lesson Ann.
AK: Yes. For free.
DB: Yeah. All for free. So -
PJ: When you were in the Pathfinders.
DB: Right.
PJ: To get in to the Pathfinders were you told that you were going in the Pathfinders? Were you transferred or did you volunteer because I’m not sure?
DB: No. The way it worked, Peter is that I, like a bunch of other guys that had passed out from St Athan as flight engineers we all had to obviously go on to bombers or transport. Some of them even went on to Sunderland Flying Boats and Coastal Command and so on. However, I, we all went on parade and there was the crews, crews that were going to do the course were six people. There was the pilot, navigator and bomb aimer, the wireless operator and two gunners. Six people. All we were shirt of, short of was a flight engineer. So Bill Neal strode up and down, and I don’t know what it was but he just caught my attention and I sort of nodded and he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Tell me about yourself.’ So I said, he said, ‘Have you done any flying?’ I said, ‘Well yeah a few with air tests, you know, flying in Wellingtons and that sort of thing on air tests but not, not all that many hours,’ but so, and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’re probably just the chap we’re looking for. Do you want to come and fly with us?’ So I said, ‘Well, yeah. Thank you,’ and he said, ‘We’ve all done a tour of ops so experienced crew and he, ‘cause he’d been instructing down at Harwell. There was an OCU at Harwell and Hampstead Norris was their satellite and so on. Bill Neal this was. So anyway and he said, ‘By the way,’ he said, ‘We’re not going to the main force.’ That would have been 1 Group or 3 Group. He said, ‘We’re going to Pathfinders.’ 8 Group and he said, so I said, ‘I don’t know. I’m not the wiser,’ I said, ‘Tell me about it,’ ‘Well,’ he said, and then he went on to describe, you know we, we will be doing this that and the other and helping to mark, find the targets. Good navigator and we did have a good navigator and find targets first and then mark them or help the master bomber to mark them. But when that first crew had done a tour they all left and we got, not all of them, sorry, the two gunners left and the navigator, that’s the first, what we would call the plotter, not the H2S operator, George Hodges, he stayed with us. Johnny Carrod, the radio, the wireless operator, he stayed, and so we had to find two gunners and a new navigator. Now, the gunners we were lucky, because there was a guy called Eric Chamberlain and he had hawk eyes. He could see in the dark this guy. He could honestly. His night vision was amazing. He could, he would see the night fighter before the night fighter saw us. And then, but the Canadian, the navigator was a Canadian flight sergeant and he was thrown in at the deep end. He had no operational experience at all and the first, he got us lost on the first trip! And I had to get them out, Bill Neal thrust a map in my hands and I said, I said, ‘I’m not,’ it was at night I said, ‘I’m not ruddy good at map reading,’ [laughs] But it so happened that we were running up on the, what they called the Frisian islands, the Dutch islands and there was one in particular that I recognised that was the shape on the map. And I was able to give him a pinpoint on that and actually the target was up in Northern Denmark. Well it was German occupied of course as you know but, and that’s how he, but he improved and he wasn’t bad, you know later on. His name was Archer, and I can never remember his first name but he was a young Canadian. Yeah.
PJ: Did you stay in touch with the crew after the war? Any of your crew members?
DB: Just, just Bill Neal I’m afraid. Johnny Carrod died fairly young and his house was burgled and he lost his DFC. That was stolen. And you know you can buy the odd whatever it is like theatre replica or something.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: But -
PJ: No.
DB: It’s not the same as the original. I was going to get mine to show you.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And [coughs] excuse me. But George Hodges, he, he, er, I spoke to him on the phone but I never actually saw him because he never attended our reunions did George so, and that was it really. I lost touch with all of them really.
PJ: Did you -
DB: Except Bill Neal.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Bill Neal and I met at the Hendon museum. At the RAF Museum at Hendon and we had a full day touring around. Pictures taken near that Lancaster which says, “No enemy aircraft -
PJ: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Shall penetrate German airspace.”
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Old Goering you see.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And we had our pictures taken with that.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And all the hundred odd bombs on the side, you know, painted on.
PJ: Is it, is it a fallacy you all, that the whole crew stuck together and when you went out you all went together to the pub? Is that - ?
DB: More or less oh -
PJ: A fallacy? Because -
DB: Somewhere I’ve got a picture of my first car which was a little Austin seven tourer and I bought that from a Canadian who was finished his ops and was off back to Canada. And I bought that car for thirty-five quid and it was a tiny little two seater really but people used to sort of get, we had the whole crew on that [laughs]. Can you imagine the springs [laughs].
PJ: Brilliant.
DB: And to start it all you had was just a blade. You could start it with a screwdriver.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And I had the keys in my pocket and I parked outside the pub and when I went outside it was gone. Somebody had stolen it and they’d obviously had a blade of some sort, a knife maybe and just turned the thing and started the engine and away and they stole it. But it was found abandoned up near the airfield, near Upwood main gates or somewhere. Rotten devils.
SJ: You said that the red markers were blind markers. They had green markers as well.
DB: Oh yes.
SJ: What were green markers for?
DB: Yeah. The green markers were what we called backers up and we dropped some of those but you dropped them on mixed reds and greens. Mixed reds and greens were dropped by the master bomber and the primary visual marker. And they actually had identified the target visually by this time but TIs didn’t last forever. They needed backing up you see and so we, we were able to back them up by dropping just the greens on their own. Now 156 were basically a blind marker squadron so if that master bomber had got to the target but he wasn’t happy with the actual identifying the aiming point, he would call for blind marking. And this is where George Hodges on his H2S would drop the reds, red TIs. But when I was down the front on the bomb sight if mixed reds and greens were going down then I would go click, click, click, click and deselect the markers and just drop HE. We became really like main force and I would just, just drop the bombs on, on the markers that were already, but that was, that was what the three things and they called this a Parramatta. Bennett had his own various names for the -
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And the, we even had sky markers. Where the, if the, if the target was obscured by a thin layer of cloud or something like that they used to drop what they called sky marker flares. They would go off more or less the same or just a couple of thousand feet below the height of the bomber stream but there was one thing about an air, an air, a sky marker and that is if that’s the target and let’s say this is the blind marker, you had to bomb on an exact heading because if you didn’t, if you came in on a heading like that, and you dropped there you would, you might have this in your sights but the bombs would fall over that side, over there. So you had to be, you had to run in on an actual precise heading when you bombed on sky markers. And that was another thing that, but we only had to drop them a couple of times that I can remember. George Hodges having to drop sky markers. But they had, I know that Bennett, he went around his office and he said something about, he was asking various people what they would call a certain attack you see. I think the Parramatta one that he decided was by a New Zealander. It sounded a little bit New Zealandish that. And there was another one. What was the other one? That — he asked this young WAAF clerk, and she gave him a name and that’s what he called, what was it? That was the overall sort of marking plan. I can’t remember the name. It’s so long ago now but yeah that’s that was what Bennett did. And he used to come around and visit you know after, not every, but he used to get around a lot of the bomber stations and he came to Upwood to the debriefing, he was there for debriefing. And he always used to ask you, you know, ‘Who dropped the bombs?’ And, ‘Did you see the target?’ And did you do this, that and the other? And I used to try and give him the best idea that, that I could. He was always quite approachable you know. Bennett. And then another night he’d be down at Graveley, you see, debriefing them from 35 Squadron and all these other path — Oakington was a Pathfinder station you see. Little Staughton, that was another one, and as I say I’ve got a list of them upstairs. Can you think of anything else?
SJ: No I think you’ve covered it.
DB: Have I?
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Well I hope I haven’t bored you stiff and just before you go come and look at this big picture I was telling you about and you’re welcome to come out.
PJ: Anyway, Donald.
DB: Sorry.
PJ: On behalf of the IBCC -
DB: Yes.
PJ: I’d like to thank you for allowing us to interview you. Thank you.
DB: Alright. Right. Right. Ok. Did you want, have you recorded that?
PJ: Yes.
DB: Oh.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Donald Briggs
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Briggs was born in Lealholm near Whitby in Yorkshire. After school, he became an apprentice with the Royal Air Force. He trained at RAF Halton in 1939 and became an engine fitter working on Wellingtons and Manchesters. He volunteered for air crew in 1943, qualified as a flight engineer and completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders at RAF Upwood. After the war he retrained as a pilot and took part in the H bomb tests at Christmas Island. Later he became a flying instructor and trained aircrew to fly Vulcans. After he retired from the Royal Air Force he became a commercial flying instructor. He continued to instruct and fly microlights until he was eighty-four years of age.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pete Jones
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Format
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01:08:42 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABriggsDW170327
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-27
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
France
Germany
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Christmas Island
United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1943
1944
1945
1957-06-19
156 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Harvard
Lancaster
Lincoln
Manchester
Master Bomber
Meteor
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
pilot
promotion
RAF Halton
RAF Upwood
target indicator
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/890/11129/PHumesEL1701.2.jpg
b7e2bdab74eff6b6808ac8b8bdfd9361
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/890/11129/AHumesEL170826.1.mp3
8e7d785f41f1ca0887f9c3ad8481803a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Humes, Eddie
Edward L Humes
E L Humes
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Eddie Humes (b. 1922, 642170 Royal Air Force), RAF personnel document and a memoir. After serving in Balloon Command, he flew operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Eddie Humes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Humes, EL
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Eddie Humes today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Eddie’s home and it is the 26th of August 2017. So first of all, thank you Eddie for agreeing to talk to me today. So, did you want to tell me about your time before the war?
EH: Well, before the war, I left school at fifteen, with my ‘tric but didn’t follow education through partly because of the circumstances at home, you know. We had a big family and needed workers and employment situation was bad unless you wanted to go in the mines and my parents didn’t want me to go into the mines so we had a little bit of an argument and eventually they agreed to me going to the RAF and the following, follow on is printed in just another story so there’s no point in me going on that. Uhm, I got my wish eventually, I got onto aircrew, that’s in there as well. I joined in on the 3rd of May 1939 and did my basic training, drills and what have you, and then expected to be posted to be a rigger on aircraft but the war was imminent and when we met to be told where we were going, I was told I was going to a balloon squadron and it didn’t please me very much and but the comment from the powers that be was you’re in the Air Force now, you do as you’re told so I was posted to a balloon centre, training centre and stayed there till I passed my exams. And then I joined a squadron where 90% of the people on it were over fifty, they were auxiliaries who at night and that was their choice to be balloon operators, I wasn’t very happy but that was the situation. Finished the training, went to a cricket ground in Leyton, Essex and our billet if you like, put it that way was a tennis hut which housed twelve of us with cold water and nothing else virtually and our balloon was flown from there and I kept asking, could I transfer to aircrew but nobody wanted to know. Fortunately I played football fairly well and on one occasion when we were coming back, I spoke to one of the officers and he said, make another application straight away, so I made another application to transfer to aircrew and they sent me to a drifter on the Thames to fly balloons from a drifter on the Thames which was, again wasn’t very nice, a) it was at the mouth of the Thames and we got the incoming tide, the outcoming tide which, I wasn’t a sailor, it didn’t suit me very much, there were half a dozen airmen and half a dozen old, very old sailors, fishermen and sometimes we got the balloon up before the German fighters came, other times we didn’t and if we didn’t get it up, then we were strafed. Fortunately, I was posted back into the East End of London onto another balloon site, which had few younger people than I was used to previously and it was during the Blitz, there were all sorts of stories but they don’t want. Uhm, and then my posting came through, did I still want to go to aircrew? And I was in, a week I was in St John’s Wood with lots of other people a) who were transferred and b) who had just joined up and we were there for two or three weeks and then posted to St Andrews in Scotland, the university, and we did our training, were billeted overlooking the golf course which was nice and we did our ground training at the university, part of it, this consisted of everything, gunnery, Morse code, astro, everything, and when that was finished again as a result of football I had a leg injury and I, I wasn’t there for the passing out parade sadly but we were then posted to Manchester, which was a holding centre, and at Manchester normally you stayed for two, maybe three weeks and you were posted abroad, you were told what you were going to be, and you were posted abroad. We were told, I was told that, we were on parade, that there was going to be, that I was going to be trained as a navigator, I didn’t mind that even though I’d flown and soloed I didn’t mind that at all but there were some Belgian pilots there who had already flown against the German Air Force and they were reclassified as navigators as well, so they turned off and went down to the Belgian embassy and we never saw them anymore. But we’d been there, dozen of us had been there about getting on twelve weeks and we talked among ourselves and they designated me as the senior airman only because I’d been in the Air Force the longest, to go and see the adjutant and I did that and the adjutant said, ‘You’re not here’. I said, ‘I am here, obviously, and there are a dozen others beside me’, and he made a few enquiries and he said, ‘Right, you better go off home on leave’ and we went on leave and ‘We’ll call for you when we need you’. And about three weeks afterwards we were called back and expected to be posted abroad like everybody else but unfortunately, we were posted to Bridgnorth. And we did the remaining of our ground training at Bridgnorth. And then from Bridgnorth we went, up to this time the only aeroplane we’d seen was Tiger Moths at school in Scotland. And we went from Bridgnorth to Dumfries to do our flying training and there we were in pairs, two trainee navigators to each aeroplane, we flew on Ansons, sometimes in the morning, sometimes during the day, sometimes in the evening, that was quite an experience, and obviously we were putting into practice all that we learned on the ground. Getting near the end, when we were getting near to our examinations, people came in from that’d been trained in Canada and they’re already sporting their brevets and their stripes, commissioned, badges and so on, which didn’t please us very much, and it pleased us less when we were paired up with them to fly and they’d never flown over a darkened city, all their flying had been done over places where there were lights and they had to learn practically all over again at night-time. Anyway, we got over it and obviously satisfied the examiners and got our stripes and so on, went on leave and were posted to Chipping Warden, that’s in Oxfordshire and there we met the Wellington for the first time and met crews, pilots, air gunners, bomb aimers, all the rest of it. And you had a couple of weeks to wander about and get to know people in between lectures and then you were gathered together and you were expected to crew up there, some did, some didn’t but it was voluntary, you weren’t directed to anybody and said you’ve got to fly with him, you’ve got to fly with him, it was voluntary. And then you complete so many hours on Wellingtons, we had pilot, bomb aimer, navigator, wireless operator, rear gunner, five and then at the end of your training, if you passed satisfactory for the officer commander, we went on leave and then you got a posting to your conversion unit and when I got to the conversion unit, it was Lancasters and we were, well, I was surprised because they had radial engines, they didn’t have inline engines but that’s what we were going to fly, Lancaster IIs and the place that we were at was called Little Snoring which is a particularly peculiar name, but we did our further training on there, we picked up another gunner, mid-upper gunner and an engineer, completed the training, posted to Foulsham to join 115 Squadron and when we got to 115 Squadron, we thought 115 Squadron, but we were told, no, you’re not, you’re forming 514 so we were then into 514. We transferred, took aircraft from Foulsham, flew to Waterbeach and we were very happy at Waterbeach because it was a peace time aerodrome and all the buildings were brick, hot and cold water, bathrooms and so on and so on. So then we again, we settled as a crew and had to do all sorts of training until we were called on operations. And on squadron, we were delayed going onto operations because we had to train on a new system called Gee-H, which was navigator’s job and it was something like a television, it had two, what do you call them? Two bars going across in opposite directions and when the, the underlying one, the navigator pressed the bomb, to drop the bombs, uhm that took some time because we had to do high level and low level, we had to practice near Lincoln at high level and near Heeley [?] at low level, but again, we became proficient and that was satisfactory. Our first operation was to, and there is some doubt in here, but it’s verified in the pilot’s logbook, that we went to Biarritz, which is the north of Spain, border of Spain and France and we couldn’t quite believe how easy it was ‘cause there was supposed to be other aircraft there but we didn’t see any other aircraft and we didn’t have any opposition, there was no flak, nothing and when we got to Biarritz, circled round for a bit because we were supposed to wait for other aircraft but they didn’t come so, we bombed and came home. But when we got to the British coast and were heading for home, we were picked up by our own searchlights and directed west and each time we tried to turn and go home, they picked us up again and directed us west again and eventually we landed in Exeter, which was a Polish fighter ‘drome and as we landed, one of the engines packed up, so we were there for a few weeks, a couple of weeks and ordered home, we had a military escort home and when we got home, the rear gunner was getting off the train and somebody kindly helped him with his parachute but they held onto the silver handle and the thing blowed out. Well, we were in trouble when we got back to base, the navigation officer and the commanding officer didn’t like it all and they weren’t ready to believe our story, but eventually after enquiries they found that a Wellington had put out a mayday call and the observer corps had mistaken us for a Wellington and taken us to Exeter, so that was all sorted out. And we just went on, we did four or five to Berlin, Mannheim, Leipzig, but the logbook, I don’t know this, I did ten, the pilot and the rest of the crew did twelve, and I did one with another crew to Mannheim. And then, as I say, we went to Nuremberg, which wasn’t a very pleasant, and then Aachen was the next trip we were to do and the shortest virtually and that’s when we were shot down coming home from Aachen. The port wing was hit first, and then the port engine, port outer engine caught fire and the engineer was adamant that he could put it out but he didn’t for a few minutes and eventually the engine fell out and obviously the aircraft couldn’t fly on, so the skipper told us to abandon aircraft. I got smashed all the navigation instruments and so on, tore up the log and got to the escape hatch, found that it was open and the bomb aimer had done his job, opening the escape hatch, as I went to go through, I noticed that his parachute in the whole day had gone without his parachute he’d gone but his parachute was still there. And as the aircraft was spinning, I tried to get out but I couldn’t, I couldn’t get out with the force, and I pulled my own parachute, that pulled me out of the aircraft and in doing so, it broke, I broke my femur, as I say in the story, on the way down, the only person I wanted was my mother, pray to God that I’ll be alright. I hit the ground and I didn’t hear the aircraft anymore and shortly afterwards there were some foreign voices and I called for help and I called in English of course and they told me to be quiet and they were Belgians and they took me to a house, took me in there, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t see them, couldn’t see the house, couldn’t see what was inside it [unclear] blind, and when I woke up in the morning, there was a group around me and I could only assume they were praying ‘cause they were all voice were monotonous and they brought the doctor, and the doctor looked, he said, I’m sorry, I can’t do anything, you’ll have to go to hospital and the only hospital is a German hospital. So, they called the Germans and he put garden, took wood from the railings in the garden and put a splint on my leg and the Germans came to take me and the lady wouldn’t let them take my, take the, me without the sofa, I had to go on a sofa and this was verified by her daughter, whom I’ll talk about later who was there at the time and she said, my mother wouldn’t let them take you without the sofa. And then, I went to the German hospital, wondering what gonna be in front of me and they were very kind, first meal wasn’t very pleasant but they were very kind and they did the operation, they said, we’ve got to operate, there wasn’t much I could do about it, I couldn’t say no, and I was put, when the operation was completed, I was put into a room, a kind of pleasant room, with French doors and big open window, big frame window, and in traction, no plaster or anything like that, I was just in traction and there was guard inside and a guard outside and when I asked why they were there when I couldn’t walk, I was in traction, they said, it’s to stop the Belgians from coming in and taking you out. So, that was fine for a few weeks, quite enjoyed myself there, didn’t do anything of course, just talked to the German guards who wanted to, didn’t want to speak English, they wanted to speak, they didn’t want to speak German, they wanted to speak English, for when they came to England and they, they ruled England. And then one night I was, flares dropping round everywhere, you could see them out of the window, and within minutes the place would be being bombed and the hospital was very badly damaged. My ceiling came in, the door and the windows came across the cage, fortunately the cage stopped anything from dropping on me and in the morning the surgeon came, he was still in his apron, which was pretty bloody, and he had a scalpel in his hand and I thought, that’s the end for me, but it wasn’t, he was fully apologetic, and it wasn’t the Germans’ fault, it was the Air Force fault for bombing the place. Well, he said, obviously you’ve got to be moved, is not, your leg’s not ready yet to come out of traction so he said, I’ve got to take it off, you can’t be moved as you are, so they took it off, and the way I went in a back of a lorry and the lorry went over a bomb crater and I fell off and broke my leg again. We stopped overnight in a place that was a rest home for German forces and that was just overnight and of course again I had several people come to look at the strange fellow and then I went to Brussels and in the Brussels hospital we were in an annex and there were several aircrew in there, injured aircrew, American, Canadian, there was even one Italian, he wasn’t aircrew, and one Russian, who ill, they’d been put in there and we stayed there for about, I suppose, seven or eight weeks, I’m not sure. And then again, the British forces were coming and the German officer in command came in and said if we would sign a letter to say we’d been well treated, he would leave us there. So, obviously we signed it and the Germans left and on the morning, I’m not sure, the sixth or seventh of September, the British headed into Brussels but just before they came into Brussels, our doors burst open and the SS came in and we said, you know, we got this paper, well, not me, the commander senior officer said, we’ve got this paper and they just tore it up and said, you know, doesn’t mean a thing. And we were put into a bus and headed out of Brussels which was in a state of chaos because they were evacuating Brussels and Brussels, part of it was on fire. It wasn’t a pretty sight, and on the way out of Brussels, we were attacked by RAF fighters and the, there was a wing commander with us, and he took his life in his hand because the two old German guards were old like home guards, they wouldn’t get off the bus, so he tackled them and disarmed them and we got off the bus and went into a pigsty on the side of the road, and whilst we were there, three, three people made the attempt to escape. Now, I know that one of them survived and got back home because he was on our squadron and I know he got home but I don’t know what happened to the other two. And when it was all over, we were put back on board and taken to Holland. We arrived in Venlo and were, the bus was attacked by Dutch people who thought we were Germans and we were taken to a convent, excuse me. The, whoever was in charge put us on the top floor of this convent and when we asked the nuns why we were on the top floor, they said, well, it’s a tall building and maybe no one will notice you’re here. And we were there for three or four days and then one of the Canadian prisoners got a bit furious and he walked out onto the balcony and looking over and people saw him and waved and of course, as it happened, there was the Gestapo down at the bottom and we were quickly shipped off to Dusseldorf in Germany and Dusseldorf was a workers camp, French, Polish, Russians, Italians and we had a couple of brushes with the French people because they were taking the British Red Cross parcels and we were getting the, the rubbish, you know, the French which was not as good as the British ones and they said, well, they were entitled to it because they were working, we weren’t, as NCOs, you didn’t work, only a few volunteered to work, and we didn’t have any problems with other people, the Russians came and helped, they were glad to have a cigarette or a bite of bread or anything that we could give them ‘cause they didn’t get anything, they had to sort out for themselves, and the Germans put the Polish people on guard at the Russian compound and the Russian people on guard at the Polish compound and they weren’t bothered much about the Italians and that, that was alright until we were moved from there and the medical officer, the French medical officer asked me, would I leave my crutches and take a stick, I said, well, I can’t walk, you know, which going back, that had happened in Belgium, in Brussels, the Germans told me to walk, I said, ‘I can’t walk, I’m still in a cage’, so they gave me crutches and said, they took the cage down and said, walk, so I did my best, and the same thing happened in the French camp, they asked me to leave the crutches because they were short and would I walk with the walking stick. Well, being young and stupid I said yes, I managed alright and then we went from there in cattle trucks, yeah, I think was there, yeah, from there in cattle trucks to, no, I’m sorry, we went from Venlo to Dusseldorf in cattle trucks and the cattle truck was divided by a barb wire, sort of fence across the inside of the truck, and the German guards were on one side and eight of us were on the other side, and during the night, there was quite a commotion, one of the German guards had got too close to the fire and his uniform, his overcoat had caught fire, there wasn’t much we could do about it because there was barbed wire between us and his big moan from then on was what is the officer going to say when he arrived in Dusseldorf? Well, we don’t know ‘cause we arrived in Dusseldorf just after a bombing raid. And when we got off the train and on the busses, the people quite rightly were annoyed about the air raid and they tried to attack us but the German guards kept them in their place and we arrived at the interrogation centre where we were put into single rooms and there was no windows in my room, no heater, just a bed with a straw mattress on it and a little signal that if you wanted to go to the toilet, you pushed this signal and a guard would come and take you but we had, they tapped on Morse code between the pipes but I couldn’t read the Morse codes, too quick for me and if your neighbour banged on the wall, that meant that he was going to put his warning down that he wanted to go to the toilet and then you’d put yours down and so you kept the guard running up and down all the time. That was a couple of days there, then we went for interrogation, now we’d been warned back home about the interrogation, what would happen and what wouldn’t happen and so on and the things they told us exactly happened. You got a form [coughs], you got a form to fill in and as I say, what we’ve been told would happen did happen, we were given a form and asked to fill in all the details on the form and you wrote your number, your rank and your name and handed it back [coughs] and they warned you that you hadn’t finished and gave it to you back then and you gave it back to them and this went on a few minutes and then they appeared to get cross, which we’d been warned about really, and a hand went under the table and obviously pressed a button and there was a shot outside and again we’d been warned about that and they said, that’s what happens to the people who don’t cooperate [coughs] and they gave me the form and I gave them back 642170 and he appeared to lose his temper, he didn’t but that was his attitude and he said, ‘As it happens, we know more about your squadron than you do’, and he handed a cap down, he said, the name was inside, Stead, Sergeant Bill Stead and he said, ‘He was on your squadron, wasn’t he?’ Well, I knew damn well he was but I couldn’t say that to him. He said, and the squadron did this and the squadron did that and I just sat there. Eventually he said, ‘You’re a waste of my time, you’re a waste of everybody’s time’ and he called the guard in and I was transferred to another place a few hundred yards away and there we got new uniforms, American uniforms and a case full of good pyjamas, soap, toilet, all the rest, all the things you needed and you had to be careful what you were saying because you didn’t know whether the people in there were planted by the Germans and we’d been there two or three days, we went to our first prison camp, no, not to the first prison camp because we were, those who were injured like me went to a camp near Meiningen in Thuringia and it was an old opera house and there were, I suppose, a hundred or more people in there who’d been injured, different types of injuries and in there was that, Warrant Officer Jackson who got the VC for his efforts, he was in there at the time and you were there until such times as you were transferred to another prison camp and whilst you were there it was quite pleasant because there were concerts and meetings and outside of the camp there was a group of circus performers who practiced every day and that was quite good for us but we didn’t know how they’d evaded being in the army, we never found out and then we were transferred to a camp in Poland and this camp in Poland was fairly new, it hadn’t been open very long and we were given a block number and at the beginning there were six or seven of us in the room but after a few weeks the place had filled up and there were I think twelve in the same room, twelve bunk beds, and I say, we didn’t grumble about, we knew we were there for a while and there was a stove on one wall and in the Red Cross parcels we used to get something called Klim, was a milk spelled backwards and when the tin was empty, we used to put it on the pipe and extend the stove a little bit further and would eventually get it into the middle of the room, so everybody could get warm because of this pipe and then that’s when the Gestapo would come in and smash it all down, start again. And again we had concerts and we had education classes and so on and so on and then Christmas eve ’45, no, ’44, I was shot down ’44, Christmas Eve ’44, we were told to pack our things, we were likely to be moved, and we had a concert that night, there was a Christmas concert, and we had a priest there, we had mass as well, and in the morning, we were told to move, we had to get out, the Russians were advancing and it’s a rule of war that prisoners have got to be moved away from the battle front and so we set off and we walked, the snow was very deep, very deep indeed but we set off for Germany, we were in a place called Kreuzberg, Poland. We set off for Germany and by the time we got to the river which divides Poland and Germany, we picked up children, people had left their children, left them, thinking we’d look after them, but of course we couldn’t but we walked across the river which was frozen to a place called Oppeln and the children were moved away, I don’t know what happened to them, but from then on it was a case of walking, a few nights in a camp, walking, a few nights in a camp until we got to Lamsdorf, which was a, thousands of prisoners in there of all nationalities, thousands and the first room I was put into I wasn’t very happy, they weren’t, they weren’t clean, they weren’t, they weren’t very nice people to be with, let’s put it that way, you didn’t want to live with them after what you’d had in the other prison camps and I asked for a move and I got a move, was to a oh no, I was taken to a camp for interview by the Swedish Red Cross to see whether I was suitable for repatriation but it transpired that I wasn’t bad enough for repatriation so I moved to another camp, which was an army camp, and there were only two or three airmen there, they’d had airmen before but they’d been moved and we were sort of in with the army, we weren’t there very long and then everybody was moved and when the move was mooted, you were told to get yourselves in groups of seven or six, seven or eight, and there was a group of people there who said to me, will you join us? And I said, yes, of course, you know, I’d join anybody, they’d been prisoners since Dunkirk, so they knew the ropes and I said, yes, willingly. They said, well, the thing is, we want somebody to be quartermaster and you are obviously not one who can go and pinch things and take things for your own, so , you’ll be quartermaster and we will keep the things coming in which worked out very well. And we left there, walked down, walked through, I used to walk during the night and sleep in the woods during the day, in case find a source, walk in and think we were German troops, so we walked during the night, slept during the day and ate during the day obviously and then we got a lift on cattle trucks, about forty was in the truck, and we finished up in Prague and when we got off the truck, you were allowed off the truck to use the loo and ladies came like the WVS, German equivalent of the WVS and gave us soup, no, gave us hot water from the engine so that we could make soup and we did that but that wasn’t a good idea because the next day we were all complaining with stomach ache, the water from the engine obviously hadn’t been very clean but we got over it and this was the routine for the next few days on a truck for a while, off a truck walk and we got to Munich and when we got to Munich, there wasn’t room for us at Munich so we stayed the night and set off walking again the next day. And by this time we were in Austria and we were put into a school in Austria but not the original people I was with, about eight of us airmen and a couple of strangers and I think the second night we were there, I went out the morning ‘cause there were no guards, I said, ‘Well, where have the guards gone?’ They weren’t there, young boys actually, they had taken over from the old men, but they’d gone and I saw a lot of people going to church, I asked them, ‘Why are they going to church?’ I said, I was a Catholic and that wasn’t a feast day, as far as I knew. And they said, oh, you don’t know that the war is over. So, I went and told the others, and we walked to a nearby airfield with all the aircraft there was smashed in, they’d been destroyed by the Germans. And the Americans came through and told us to hang on they ‘d be other trucks coming through and they’d bring us food and what have you which they did and then they picked us up and took us to Reims, in France, and there we were grouped and told then aircraft would be flying back in and again with my luck the aircraft that we were going to fly back in, the navigator was missing all the night, and the people I was with, the army people said, well, you’re a navigator aren’t you, I said, ‘Yes, but the pilot might not want me’, anyway they went to the pilot and said, this fellow’s a navigator, and the pilot said, ‘How long was it since you flew?’ I said, ‘Oh, about twelve, thirteen months or so on’, he said, ‘Well, you think you can map read till we get to England?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I’m sure I can’. So, they gave me the map and off we went. And we got to England and when we got to England they were in wireless contact then and we stopped at a place called, an aerodrome called Wing and there we weren’t very happy, we were taken to a tent and fumigated [laughs], we had puffers put up our sleeves and down our necks and what not and a bit humiliating but there, it had to be done and from there we went home on leave. And at the end of leave, we came back to Cosford and we stayed at Cosford to people like me who were wounded, who had recuperation. And the Japanese war ended, and I remember it well, I was in the swimming pool, and when somebody came in and said, the war in Japan is over, I got out the swimming pool got dressed and went, went to what I thought was home. But, oh, I had a pass to go home, but by a direct route, I couldn’t divert southwards, I had to go northwards and on Woolhampton station, train came in for Liverpool and the next thing I knew I was on the train for Liverpool, I thought, what am I doing here? Well, I’d left a girlfriend who lived near Liverpool but actually in my prison time, I never heard a word from anybody, father, mother, family, friends, no one, it was a bit of a joke when the post came there was nothing for me but I’d moved so many times that nobody had an address and when they wrote it was just passed on and it never caught up with me. Anyway, I got to Liverpool and I thought, well, here it goes, and I went over to my girlfriend’s house, knocked on the door, mother opened the door, she said, ‘What do you want?’ And I said, ‘I’m Eddie.’ ‘Eddie who?’ she said, ‘cause I’d lost, well, about three and a half, four stone in weight and my clothes were pretty, new uniform was pretty hopeless, it was hanging on me, and I was nearly black with the sun being out in the weather all the time and she said, ‘You’d better come in then’, ‘cause she didn’t remember who I was. At roundabout half past five the door opened, Nora came in, looked across the room, saw me and went out again and it transpired it, she had a date for that night but she called to her friend’s to cancel the date and from then on we were together and we married in the September of ’45. And, well, we stayed married for seventy years. And then I was discharged from the Air Force because I wanted to fly and they had so many fliers they didn’t want people who’d been injured, so, they had enough fliers. So I took discharge and went to a special unit where you worked out what you’re going to do afterwards and I made the suggestion that I’d like to be in education but again it came up the question you haven’t got university qualifications and you haven’t been to a training college and so on and so on, however I got over all that, and the education officer said, ‘Why don’t you go a step higher and try for teaching?’ I said, well, you know, as has happened in the past, ‘I might qualify for teaching’, he said, ‘If you’re qualified as a navigator, you’re qualified for teaching’. So, I had a test and passed the test, and I went to a teacher training college, they wanted me to go to, the one year, but I wanted to do a two year and I, I became a teacher. And eventually I spent a couple of terms in the Wirral, near Liverpool and then I came to Worksop taught fifteen year old, fourteen, fifteen, it was the first year I had children had to stay until they were fifteen and I had the first class in this particular school, fourteen, fifteens, they’d all, they weren’t, I’m not being unkind, the majority of them weren’t clever, they hadn’t passed the eleven plus, they hadn’t passed the thirteen plus, but some of them were quite bright, anyway that’s beside the point, and I stayed there for ten years. And then we talked it over and Nora had a good job, we talked it over and it was become quite obvious that I was going to get any further in a secondary school, I was in an all age school, so I decided to transfer to primary school, and we moved to Bishops Stortford in Hertfordshire and I was deputy head there for, I think 1967, ten years, and then I got a headship in Derbyshire, [unclear], and I was head there until 1984, then I retired. Came here. And that’s the story so far. Well, I eventually got in touch with what’s the squadron association and began going to the reunions and I had the wife of the commanding officer wanted to start a museum and she asked all of us who were there and at that time there’d be about eighty, ninety ex-squadron members there, if they had anything that would start the museum and I asked, I said, ‘I haven’t got anything really but I’ve got my prisoner of war identity card, would that be of any use?’ ‘Oh yes’, she said, ‘Let me have it. So, I did. And I suppose a couple of years afterwards, I got a phone call, ‘Please don’t put the phone down, I’m not a double glazing salesman, my name is Clive, you might remember my uncle, Clive Hill.’ I said, ‘I remember him very well, he was my engineer.’ ‘Oh’, he said, ‘Well, can we start from there? My mother has been ill and they have told her that her illness was due to worry about not doing anything about finding what happened to her brother.’ Rightly or wrongly, that’s what they’d said, and he said, ‘I’ve taken over and the Ministry of Defence wouldn’t give me any information about anybody but my uncle, they wouldn’t let me have your information. But I’ve talked to the secretary of the association, squadron association and he has given me your address and phone number, can I talk to you?’ And I said, ‘Yes, of course.’ And she’d gone down to Waterbeach to the museum, to try and find out something about his uncle and he’d given up and as he walked through the door, coming out, he saw this card on the wall and eleventh of April ’44 and he said, that was the night my uncle was shot down. And there was only one aircraft shot down. So, you must be the survivor, he said, I had an inkling there was a survivor, because there’s only six people buried. And, well, from then on, we kept in contact and the then secretary of the association was ill and he wanted to give up and Clive took over and all the information was dumped on his doorstep and he’s been the secretary ever since and he does a fantastic job and of course we’ve kept in touch as families, we’ve been away together, we went to Belgium together, to put the monument up, he went to Belgium to find the spot and as he was looking round, the farmer came up and said, you know, are you from the police, are you looking for somebody? He told him why he was there and of course things blossomed and they gave us the plot to put the memorial on. And we were entertained for the weekend by the local council.
SP: Did you ever meet anyone from the farm after the war?
EH: Oh yes
SP: Who had taken you in?
EH: Yes, the wife of the farmer came to the last reunion and was delighted and so were we. And I met the sister of the family that took me in, but she died. We stayed with her overnight at the time we were putting the monument together, but her brother had died and her parents had died, she was the sole survivor. And we’re still in touch, Clive he, if he can’t arrange a pickup for me on squadron association reunions, then he comes himself, comes from Castle Bromwich, picks me up and takes me and then brings me back again, which is a long journey. So, we are looking forward to next year, which would be the seventy-fifth anniversary of the squadron forming, so hopefully we get there. I think that’s about everything.
SP: Okay, Eddie, well.
EH: I can remember as I’ve been helpful or not.
SP: That’s been very detailed, so thank you very much for your time on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. It’s been an
EH: Oh, thank you for putting up with it
SP: Excellent story, lots of details. Thank you very much for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Eddie Humes
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHumesEL170826, PHumesEL1701
Format
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00:54:55 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Cambridgeshire
Belgium
Belgium--Brussels
Germany
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Thuringia
Poland
Poland--Łambinowice
Description
An account of the resource
Eddie Humes flew as a navigator on Lancasters with 514 Squadron during the war. He chose to join the RAF in May 1939 instead of going to work in the mines. He was initially expected to be posted as a rigger on aircraft but was then sent to a balloon training centre, which didn’t please him very much. After finishing training, he applied for transfer to aircrew, but was posted to a balloon drifter on the Thames and from there, to the East End in London. Then his posting to aircrew came through and so he transferred to St John’s Wood for aircrew training and then to St Andrews and to Manchester, where he trained to be a navigator. Was then posted to RAF Chipping Warden on Wellingtons, RAF Little Snoring and to RAF Waterbeach on 514 Squadron. Remembers his first operation to Biarritz. Gives a vivid and detailed account of when they were shot down in 1944 over Belgium, on the way back home from Aachen, when the port wing was hit. Six members of the crew died in the crash, leaving him the sole survivor, breaking his leg in the landing. He was taken by a Belgian family but, because of his severe injuries, he was handed over to the Germans, who brought him to hospital, where he underwent surgery and spent a long period of convalescence. He then spent the rest of the war being moved from camp to camp, in Belgium, Germany and Poland and was then forced to march hundreds of miles from Poland to Austria, from where he was sent to France and repatriated. After the war, he went into teaching and ended up as a deputy head, until his retirement. He joined the squadron association and together with the association’s secretary, his engineer’s nephew, he went to Belgium to build a memorial to his lost crew.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1944
1945
514 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Gee
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
navigator
prisoner of war
RAF Dumfries
RAF Little Snoring
RAF Waterbeach
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag 8B
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/882/11709/PHorshamES1602.2.jpg
67e67ad73fa2fc212dac0e588fd3a172
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/882/11709/ASymondsHorshamE170105.2.mp3
7d055b8f4144ed6db659e469c9e75ac0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Horsham, Eric
Eric Symonds Horsham
E S Horsham
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Eric Horsham (b. 1923), 9 photographs, and his memoirs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 102 Squadron from RAF Pocklington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Eric Horsham and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Horsham, ES
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 5th of January 2017 and I’m with Eric Horsham down in Warminster and he was a flight engineer. And he is going to talk about his experiences in life but particularly with the RAF. So, Eric what are you earliest recollections of life?
ESH: Well, every year we went off to Devon for a holiday at relations because my people came from Plymouth and Devonport and this was held good right up until my teenage years. But early memories really, I suppose began at the age of about, serious memories, seven when we heard a very strange noise on one occasion and we all rushed out to see what it was. And do you know what? It was the R101 which was on its way to London and of course guided by the River Thames because that’s where we lived. In Plumstead. So it was logical. In fact the best view from Plumstead was the Ford Motor Works which had four big white chimneys and so that was a landmark. And following on from there it wasn’t until I was [pause] well I suppose fourteen really because that’s when I left school and they said, ‘Well, there’s a couple of jobs and one is — would you like to be a messenger in the Royal Ordnance factory?’ Which was right adjacent to Plumstead at Woolwich, you see and also the headquarters of the Royal Engineers. So that’s what I did for six months because it was destined that I should take the Railway Clerical Examination and join the rest of the family working on the railway. So that’s subsequent to that they sent me to train as a booking clerk. But I didn’t show up very brightly so they said, ‘No. We’ll send you to a goods depot.’ Which was rather like being banished, you know [laughs] because, can I be humorous at this point and say, well yes I was sent to a depot call Nine Hills which was in Vauxhall near Waterloo and on one side I had the Brand’s Essence and Pickle factory churning out pickle. And looking the other way we had horses because everything was delivered, delivered by horses, and drays at that. And on the other side we had the gaslight and coke company pushing out fumes so that was my early memory on the railway and then a friend of mine said [pause] well I told the friend of mine in the railway business that I was very unhappy there. So, indeed the friend said, ‘Well, we’ll try and rectify that,’ and apparently I didn’t shine as a booking clerk either. So they sent me to the estate office of the Southern Railway which was way out in the country at Chislehurst, but I digress because previous to — I mean we, talking about the year 1937. As you’ll appreciate if I was ’23 — born ‘23. ‘33, ‘37 that’s thirteen or fourteen years and 1939 came along. We can verify those dates and we had to join anything organised. All young people. So, but I think maybe I’m a bit previous to that because I went along to the Air Defence Cadet Corps. This would be somewhere about 1937 at least. So from there of course we went on to the Air Training Corps which was very much in evidence at Woolwich because we were, had the run of the Woolwich Polytechnic, and the chief there was indeed given the rank of wing commander in the Air Training Corps. Wing Commander Halliwell. So, that’s where I first got my, sort of my aircraft experience and of course it was a very good base for workshop practice. We all started off wanting to be flight — to be aircraft fitters. Fitters and turners. And the very basic things that we did were of course in connection with Tiger Moths where you really had the history of aircraft from very early days, and we had to learn all about turn buckles and things which kept the wings in place. But of course as time went by, here we are in ’39 and we were getting heavy bombers coming in, and if you’d, you had to decide, you know, really what you wanted to do because you were going to be called up for sure. And state a preference. So of course I did. And that was to be a flight engineer. Now, as an aside to this, engineers in the Air Force — flying, got twelve shillings a day. Now, you, you know seven twelves is eighty four. That’s four pound forty a week which is not to be, not to be sniffed at. But of course we also had to join something anyway. So, off I went to, to be called up but unfortunately there was a problem because I’d had a medical earlier for call up and the doctor discovered that one leg, ankle or calf, was slightly different to the other one. And of course yes it would be so because when I was born it was in a splint up until a year, eighteen months which straightened it out but it never did quite catch up with the other leg. Anyway, they said, ‘No. You’re grade three. We don’t want you.’ So off I went back to the estate office and soldiered on. Filing I think was our main job then because the railway had a vast estate. However, ok, come twelve months I was getting pretty fed up so I went up to the local recruiting office and said, ‘You know, I’m available. And I’m partly trained as an engineer. I want to join the Air Force,’ and they said, ‘Well that’s alright. You’re in the Air Training Corps. You should be alright.’ So they sent me off to Cardington and, for a medical. Went to Henlow actually. Adjacent. Just down the road from Cardington. Saw the top brass and he said, ‘Well, jump up and down there,’ and so I did. And he said, ‘There’s nothing wrong with you, off you go.’ So back to an interview at Cardington. The very, very modern method of identifying people. You had all these puzzles in a book, and you went through the book. A hundred puzzles and things like a bit of algebra, you know. And I knew a little bit. Anyway, I got the question right and I was the only one in that class who got it. So the squadron leader who was interviewing, and he was loaded with gongs, of course to a young man I couldn’t take my eyes of these gongs. Anyway, he put me through all the paces and he had a civilian officer too, with him, in the interview. And in his room he had every kind of aircraft and I was to — aircraft recognition. So I did very well at that because we were well trained in the Air Training Corps. So off I went then back to civilian life and then a little while later got called up for Aircrew Reception Centre at Lord’s. So we had a, we were very honoured because we had to be kitted out in the Long Room which was famous as you know. We had drill on the famous turf. Now, that lasted about three weeks by which time we were fully kitted up and said, ‘Right. Off to Torquay you go.’ We thought that was jolly good because Torquay was a lovely holiday centre wasn’t it? Anyway, we did, I did eight weeks there altogether. And we learned administration and the law of the RAF and the time came when they said, well, you know, off to the squadron — no. Off to the big training centre you go. And I remember I slept the night on Bristol Temple Meads Station because that was it. We were going to St Athan in Wales. And the train service being what it was we did arrive at St Athan with two kit bags by the time we got there. And humped them all the way up to the camp which we thought rather naughty. Anyway, we went through twenty six weeks, I think it was, of training throughout every facet of aircraft construction and the essential things that one would have needed to know. Like you had to be au fait with a very complicated system of petrol tanks. Now, each wing of a Halifax had six tanks. And this had to be in flying whittled down from, so that your main petrol was in the mid-section, in tanks one and three. Funny enough on the test training board they said, ‘No, you really ought to have another think about this. Go back and think for another week.’ So, then I passed out and they put a little white flash in my cap and they gave me papers for the Number 1652 Conversion Unit which was that Marston Moor.
[Telephone ringing. Recording paused]
CB: So we’re just re-starting now with St Athan and the rest of the things that you were doing in training there.
ESH: Yes. I’ll go straight into leaving St Athan.
CB: What else did you do in St Athan? Hydraulics. What else?
ESH: Is that running?
CB: Yes.
ESH: Well, yes, you had your petrol system. You had the other power that was likely to be in aircraft which were accumulators. Now, not as you would think an electricity accumulator but this was liquid in a cylinder. Oil actually I think it was. And air was pumped in giving it a pressure and on selecting undercarriage down the accumulator would push it down. This is in the case of a Halifax which was either hydraulic or pneumatic. So the way to get services to operate was by his accumulator. But not only that of course because you did have [pause] now let me think. You had the port inner engine on a Halifax is the one that supplies power to your services and —
CB: Electrical power.
ESH: Yes. Some of it would have been electrical power.
CB: But also hydraulic.
ESH: And hydraulics had to be learned. Flaps were hydraulic. The other services control are foot and pedals by the pilot on the fin and rudder. And the elevators — well they would be hydraulic you see running a pipeline out. And flaps for instance. Fairly high pressure, well two and a half pounds I think were the standard pressure in the system but it was enough to push a big flap down against the airstream. And so electrics — you had to be au fait with the electrical services, and therefore you had to mug up on Ohm’s Law if you like in order to appreciate the power that you could get from electric motors. So, and then of course you had to know the different gauges of the stressed skin of the alclad which was a compound of the aluminium NG7. You see, the mind gets very hazy when it comes to the complete structure but you were able, by the end of six months, to walk through a mock-up of an aircraft with your eyes closed. You could have bandaged the flight engineer. He was the one who moved around and you were perfectly au fait with where the main spar came across so you could sort of jump over that. And of course the controls for your petrol were underneath the, what’s called the rest position which was a little sort of bunk for resting people. We didn’t go to sleep there actually but it was very useful. And then in the front of the aircraft of course you had the pilot with the wireless op immediately underneath him. And the navigator and the bombardier in the nose proper. So they, we were pretty well genned up by the time we left there. We could go anywhere blind folded within the air craft there and operate switches without thinking about it. So then they said, ‘Right. Here’s, here’s your ticket.’ You’re on your on your way,’ to a place called Pocklington — no. Sorry. Marston Moor. The sight of the famous battle actually was just down the road. And this was number 1652 Conversion Unit where all the crews got together as and made up as crews. Now, I hadn’t met our crew before then but we were very late. The mid-upper gunners and the flight engineers only met the crew, the other crew of four who’d come along from EFTS and their various ‘dromes where they had been instructed, to make up a crew. And it was strange because we assembled in the hall and the flight engineers and the gunners — mid-upper gunners, would be sitting in chairs and then in came the existing crews because they’d been flying Wellingtons which only required five people. And then — how do you find a pilot? They said, ‘Join up with somebody,’ so eventually, I think we were down to about two flight engineers and a chappie came along and said, ‘I need a flight engineer. You’ll be my flight engineer won’t you?’ And it turned out that he was a very very competent pilot. His name actually was, he was a Pilot Officer Francis then, who came from a village near where we are now called Stoke St Michael near Shepton Mallet. Anyway, he was quite stern. He always said that he’d seen our records but I don’t think he had. Anyway, he brought the crew along and said, ‘This is our flight engineer. Do you think he’ll be alright?’ So that was it. That was our crew. And so then we started training on the next day on circuits and bumps because this aircraft was totally new to our pilot. And while we’re on the subject of crew we had a very important chap in the crew who is of course the navigator. Now, we had actually in retrospect, having had thirty odd ops to prove himself, and we wouldn’t be here now if it hadn’t have been for Oscar Shirley, who was our navigator, because you could turn him upside down. You could have umpteen course changes. He knew exactly where he was. Because it could be very, I mean I heard of crews who had navigators that weren’t too good and that was curtains. However, we won’t dwell on that. But, and while we’re on crew our bombardier was fresh from the first few months of a teacher training course. He was called Johnny Morris but not to be confused with the comedian. And Alan Shepherd was our wireless operator. Now, Alan Shepherd came from Ringwood, off a smallholding. Wonderful chap really. Did a lot of good work after the war. Who else have we got to account for? Oh rear gunner. Yes. Rear gunner, another Londoner. I’m just desperately trying to remember his name. You wouldn’t believe it would you? [pause] I’ll remember it in a moment. We’ll come back to that. Now, who haven’t we accounted for? Mid-upper gunner. Jimmy Finney from Hull. Lovely lad who later got shot up on one operation and had to pack it in.
CB: And your bomb aimer?
ESH: Ron Alderton was the name of the rear gunner by the way. He is still with us as far as I know but when I phoned him the other day he said, ‘I’m losing my marbles. I can’t come and see you.’ So, there we were. Crew set up. And then of course we all had our bicycles with us. Off in the van and off we went to — I think we went by train from Green Hammerton to York. And then York out to Pocklington, and the station yard was just gravel in those days. And then of course we walked over to the ‘drome which was quite close. Each of us had two kit bags and a bicycle. But we knew we were going to Pocklington and it didn’t have a very savoury sort of record. In fact they said, ‘Now you’re here you’ll be lucky if you last three weeks.’ Which was a throwback from — 1943 was a desperate year and here we are in January or February was it of ’44, at the Conversion Unit. And Pocklington had, sorry not the Conversion Unit. Pocklington — the actual RAF station and there was definitely a pervading sort of sense that this was a bit dodgy, you know. However, we were led into operations in around about, just before D-Day. We’d done all our circuits and bumps and cross country’s and they let us down very gently on short trips to France. I mean the first trip we did was to a place called [unclear] which was a P-plane place. P planes were coming in thick and fast so Churchill had said to our boss Air Chief Marshall Harris, ‘Look get your lads on this. I want it stamped out.’ Because they knew the 6th of June was coming up. So we continued to do that until right through until well after D-Day. To various places which you wouldn’t be able to find on the map because they don’t give, you won’t find them as places like Foret de Dieppe. Which is unheard of, I mean, but there you are. And then we started ops didn’t we? And of course our accent was on night bombing. Can you imagine having a sheet of aluminium stood up against the wall and you gathered up in your hand and [pause] gravel? Now, you threw the gravel at the aluminium. Now that’s just what it’s like when you’re being shot. If you’re near a shot. Because all the shrapnel comes and hits the aircraft like that and that is getting just a bit too close for comfort. However, they were nights. Now, what you don’t, what you can’t see you don’t worry about do you? Even though it was seven or eight hours sometimes. Or five or six to the Ruhr. Because we were concentrating on the Ruhr. I mean Essen after we’d been there and some of the other lads had been there previously there wasn’t one brick standing on another. And that’s where Krupps the armament works were ruined, you know — finished. Because we were mainly at that time after [pause] I mean our targets were decided by the Ministry of Economic Warfare. And they said, ‘Right. Wipe out Germany’s oil and that will end the war.’ So that’s what we did. We went to all sorts of obscure places trying, in bulk, to wipe out an oil plant. Because, I mean, you’re looking at a complex in the middle of a small area of a village. Now it took a lot of aircraft to plaster it so we did a lot of this up and down the Ruhr. I mean there were so many places I won’t bore you with that. But that’s what we did. But also we went to one or two further places like Brunswick. Way across east to Berlin. And then Hanover, Soest, Osnabruck and they were very well defended. And of course the night fighters hadn’t quite been been nullified as they were a little later. So we had, I suppose a charmed existence. And one of the deadly things the Germans did was to position a gun at a fixed angle — called a shrage gun and it would come out and go straight for the port inner. Once you got the port inner — well that’s where your services came from. And there’s no way really you could put a fire out. You’d try by diving [pause] but no really we had a charmed existence I suppose. And then D-Day came along and in preparation for that the squadron was busy but we didn’t actually get over Normandy until, I think it was July the 18th 1944 when it was, there were troop concentrations around Cannes. Now, if you remember Montgomery couldn’t shift them and everyone was looking to him and saying, you know, ‘You’re going to be a failure aren’t you? You can’t. You’re army can’t do it.’ So they whistled up the Air Force east of Cannes where Tigers tanks had dug in in expectation of a bombing raid. and of course we were there 5 o’clock in the morning and it soon became obscured by dust and smoke. And really it was pretty terrible for the Germans I’m sure because they staggered out of their bunkers and that, having been bombed by I think it was a thousand aircraft. Not all at once but over a period of about half an hour. Your concentration was so great yes you could time them and of course this was, in effect, an army cooperation. We had to be very careful because the army had to lay down a yellow barrier of flares with a given margin which they decided was safe so — and I do remember on that occasion I think as we were coming — as we were going out on that raid as you’ll realise Cannes isn’t that far from England. They were coming back. So, quite amazing you know to see these aircraft coming back and you hadn’t got there. Now, this was daylight of course because they switched us from night after a time because we went on to daylight because of course if you can see something it should be, you should be more accurate. Now, we did go on right through the summer. We went to one P-plane place seven days running. Foret de Dieppe. If you can find it on the map. Because one operation was preceded by Mosquito. Now the Mosquito could — it was planned he would be on a fixed from England on the exact spot. So we were trundling away there getting towards — and the secret was when he dropped his bombs everyone else would do theirs. And of course unfortunately we got up near the target and one aircraft opened its bomb doors and dropped the bombs and of course everybody else did the same. So really that was — the idea was good but it didn’t work in practice. Whether the Air Ministry would like you to know that I don’t know. But yes, it was so. So, we were largely on P-plane bases but then we went on, as I say, to daylight. Oil installations. Because at that time it was really beginning to show that the Germans couldn’t really put enough in the field because they hadn’t got the petrol. So, mainly of course we were up at the Ruhr at places like Gelsenkirchen where there were oil installations and that more or less saw the summer out. But one operation did stand out for us and that was army cooperation with the Americans who were trying to push into the Ruhr and we hadn’t yet, they hadn’t yet done it but there were three towns. Julich, Duren and Eschweiler, and I think they are adjacent to the [pause] now what was the name of the forest?
CB: Ardennes.
ESH: The Ardennes, yes. Indeed. The Ardennes and these Germans had all their batteries concentrated in that area and they could dig in these Tiger tanks and they were very difficult. I mean they were very difficult to move. And the crews also were dug in and ready to come into action as soon as the raid had passed over. Anyway, we went through the target and on our way out and we must have wandered. At that time of course to nullify guns you dropped out metallic strip, Window, which really foxed the German radar. And they were pretty good on this radar. And we did wander around to one side on the way out. Out of radar — out of the Window cover and you could see. I was lucky I had a little dome and I could look out as a flight engineer to the rear and you could see these black dots coming up, but you didn’t know whether that one was going to follow that one but it did. And there was an almighty bang and so skipper Francis knew what that was so immediately put it into a dive. Now we were about fifteen thousand feet I think and we ended up diving and ended up at eight thousand feet hoping that the Germans wouldn’t be able to follow us down but the place was full of smoke and cordite. The smell of cordite. If you’ve opened up a firework or let it off you’ll smell cordite and that’s what, that’s what was filling up the aircraft. So you couldn’t communicate. Everyone had gone deaf so you had to wait for your hearing to come back. But being a flight engineer I was able to walk around because we were at level flight by that time. Previous to that we’d been pinned in our stations. The G-effect being such. And so the first thing I saw — the aircraft looked like a pepper pot on one side, the starboard side, and daylight was streaming out. No flaps. And unfortunately Jim Finney in the mid-upper turret was pointing to his leg and the shrapnel had gone through at the thigh which rendered him, his control of his foot etcetera to be nullified. So wireless op and bombardier got him out of the turret and laid him down in the fuselage, bandaged him up and they cut his trousers first in order to find out where the where he’s bleeding. And they did a good job on him because you know if a chap’s losing blood he’s losing life blood. So, anyway, the skipper said to navigator, ‘Give me a course for home.’ He gave him a course irrespective of what we were flying over and he pointed the nose in the right direction and off we went and we were soon back. I suppose at — oh yes it was awkward because there was a mist coming up and a fog but we were pointed towards Orfordness and the aerodrome there which had FIDO. Fog Dispersal [pause] Fog Incandescent Dispersal Organisation. So we were able to fly around once firing off all the red flares that we had so they should know down below that we hadn’t got radio, we hadn’t got brakes. But it’s a long runway and it was called [pause] There were two — one was at Carnaby further up the coast. This was Woodbridge. Straight in off the sea straight on the ‘drome. So it was getting pretty misty and it was closing in. November is a bad month isn’t it? Anyway, we got down didn’t we? And we managed to take up the full length of the runway, ended up on the grass at the end. But nevertheless we were off out of trouble. And along came, well they knew full well that this aircraft was damaged. Couldn’t talk to us. So they sent out the wagon and dear Jim was soon in hospital. And we, along with a couple, quite a few dozen others descended on the cookhouse for a supper, you know. Which we did eventually get because they didn’t expected all these people to come in 5 o’clock in the afternoon. And so what do you do? We’re down at Orfordness there in the east coast of Essex. They gave us tickets back to London and then back to York which was an excuse for everybody to spend the night in London. But I was lucky because I could get an electric train just down to Woolwich as it were and back home. We never got pulled up. None of us had hats. Well, I think, I think the skipper did because he was very particular about carrying his nice peak cap, you know. However — yeah, so we, but that’s only one of about six different aircraft that we had on the tour. Some of the numbers are in the logbook. But where we had different problems — for instance on one occasion we had a seagull in the engine nacelle which put that out of action. So of course you didn’t use that aeroplane the next day. We had so many we could have a new one every day if necessary. As I say, we had about seven. We got the undercart. That went down alright otherwise we wouldn’t be here would we? But it could be things like that which would be, could be very dodgy. And we eventually finished our tour on oil installations. Let’s see [pause] towards the end. Towards the end. Towards the [pause] October. October. Through Christmas. Probably about January or February of ‘45 and that was the end of our tour. And we had done twenty daylights and about thirteen night trips which clocked up something like four hundred, five hundred hours flying. Full stop.
CB: We’ll stop there for a —
[recording paused]
CB: So we’re just, we’re just doing a recap now which is on the damage on the aircraft.
ESH: Yes.
CB: So starting at the point of the big explosion. Then what happened and what was the effect?
ESH: Well I hope I can remember.
CB: That’s alright.
[pause]
ESH: Well we left the target area and unfortunately we may have erred to one side of the Window cover which of course blocks out their radar and nullifies their accuracy. But nevertheless they caught us up and in a flash there was an almighty bang and our hearing disappeared straight away and the skipper put it into a dive, And down we went. Down. Down. Down. Something like eight thousand feet I suppose before we levelled out and that was a relief but we were then, I was then able, as a flight engineer to move around and observe any damage and by jingo there was. Looking out the port side — the starboard side the flaps had disappeared. One important, very important thing. The whole side of the aircraft was peppered and daylight was, it was more or less a window. And our mid-upper gunner, now our hearing had come back and our visibility was quite goon— pointed to his leg and indeed he had caught, been caught by shrapnel right through his thigh from his turret. So that very shortly after our wireless operator and our bombardier came out and got him out of the turret and cut his trouser and stopped the flow of his blood. And we realised it was very urgent to get back to England because, fortunately our four engines are still turning over in spite of losing some major control of the aircraft, so on arriving at Woodbridge which was a mighty long ‘drome a mighty long runway and very wide too we had to circle. We had to tell the ground what was happening. And so there we were flying, running off red verey lights in case there were other aircraft in the circuit, but there was no issue. We did one. One circuit around the flying control and straight in to the funnel of the runway. Without — without radio we felt pretty helpless. The fog had closed in on the aerodrome now at this time but he was an A1 skipper and as I say one of his things that he was so good at was flying blind, he could fly in any condition. He got us down and we got Jimmy into the transport and away to the nearest hospital.
[pause]
CB: Was there any fire on the aircraft?
ESH: No. Fortunately we didn’t have fire. Which is a pretty terrible thing.
CB: So you had no, no hydraulics and you had no electrics. How did you get the undercarriage down?
ESH: Well, it’s heavy, it’s a very heavy undercarriage. Massive wheels on a Halifax. Six foot high nearly. If I remember rightly the hydraulics had gone which serves flaps, bomb doors, undercarriage and, actually what happened is [pause] there is another precaution because if your —
[pause]
CB: You could wind it down could you?
ESH: No. There was a precaution against it falling down which is called withdrawing the uplocks. This is a job that the flight engineer had to do. He would go down to what the rest position which is where our mid-upper gunner was. And there are two D rings. One each side protruding from the fuselage. The cable obviously comes through the back of the wing because the undercarriage would have been beneath the wing, and it was a simple system. Ok. You pulled the D ring which pulled a cable which released a sort of a gate bolt. This bolt, if you can imagine a gate bolt, held up the undercarriage. So the undercarriage would automatically fall down. So that’s obviously what the, as flight engineer, I did on approaching. We were fortunate in as much as that was all intact. I mean if the aircraft had lost its undercarriage earlier you not only would it have caused a lot more loss of fuel flying with an undercarriage down, total drag. But in this case no. The uplocks worked. Irrespective of any hydraulic system. And of course your warning lights came on here and there.
CB: Ok.
ESH: We covered that have we?
CB: You have. Yeah.
ESH: So therefore we got — we were on the ground, Jimmy’s off to hospital and we are left to go and find our supper again with another hundred bods as we used to call ourselves. The next morning we were given a pass to go back to Pocklington via London so everyone had a night in London if they couldn’t get home. We all seemed to arrive the next morning for the 10 o’clock up to King’s Cross, up to York and that was the end of that sticky situation.
CB: When you had a night in London where did you stay?
ESH: Well I was able to go back. Once we got to London I was able to go back to Plumstead to my folks, and one or two of the other crew had friends that they could call on. Or relations. In fact Skipper Francis had some relations down in Slough way. Now, Ron Alderton, the rear gunner, had Canadian friends temporary and he did a night of the rounds of whatever pubs he could find and night clubs. He had quite a roaring time. I mean we didn’t need to get a train before 11 o’clock from Kings Cross to get back to York. So, on the train back we were, you know, reminiscing. And I always remember I’d tried to write out something for the, for the skipper at the time when all our hearing had gone and it was an absolute shambles. Unfortunately, you couldn’t hear anything and I found I couldn’t even spell the word fuselage. What I should have done was “Jim hit.” Two words would have conveyed that but instead of that — in the event you do not act logically and you would find that you had difficulty in getting to grips with language. You could move about and you knew exactly what you should do but you couldn’t think it through. But we were all in the same boat weren’t we? We all lost our hearing for quite a time.
CB: So you —
ESH: But we got back. That was the thing.
CB: You experienced the initial shock. When did the secondary shock hit you and what was that like?
ESH: Well, we had a night’s sleep, as you will appreciate, in London and I suppose we were rehearsing the events in the train for five hours. But we well appreciated that we were very lucky. But I don’t think at that time that that sort of event had too much effect on a crew. We were all together weren’t we? Jimmy was unfortunate but he wasn’t killed. That would have been a terrible disaster. So therefore I think we’d already been used to five years of war. I mean I’m talking about ’39 onwards, you’ve already had four years and you became inured to stress, in effect. So although we went back over the ground again but we were as a crew, we were complete. We were very lucky.
CB: How long before jimmy rejoined you?
ESH: Jimmy, unfortunately was off to hospital in Oswestry and he was ruled out forever more as a flyer and we received then a young gentleman from Scotland called Onderson. He was very broad and I think mostly we didn’t call him Ian, I think we just called him Jock and he was quite happy with that. And he finished up something like five or six operations with us. He became one of us obviously.
[pause]
CB: Now, you were saying that you did thirty. In your tour there were thirty ops, twenty of them were daylight. How many of those were to do with the V weapons and what happened?
ESH: Well, as we said the V weapons and the P-planes. The V weapon was of course outside our control. It’s a rocket and you don’t hear it coming, you don’t know it’s left the ground even. And if you were anywhere near it then it could destroy half a dozen houses at one time. So we were mainly concentrating on P plane sites because you could flatten them. Until they put them on lorries and then of course you couldn’t find them. So, yes.
CB: So you were, you were in daylight but how easy or difficult was it to find the V1 initially and then V2 sites?
ESH: Well, I don’t think that we could ever find — the V1 for instance was secreted in the middle of a forest and certainly fighters could eventually have a go because they could see them and once we’d identified, or the Air Ministry had identified the location they knew what they were looking for on lorries. They would shoot them up but of course V2 was purely a mobile rocket. But once it was off it was off and it would perform a perambular and no one knew it had gone and no one knew it was coming. And there was just a terrible explosion and five houses could be — disappear.
CB: But the V1 sites, as you said, in forests — how effective would you say your endeavours were in dealing with those?
ESH: Well you want the truth. A question like where would you find the P- plane sites in a forest? All we had to go on really was what came back from our agents by wireless. That there was this activity in a certain place which the Air Ministry would identify, or the sight would be identified and it would be marked on our maps, as I say, as a very obscure village in Pas-de-Calais. The only thing we could do was mass bombing. In fact I don’t remember a site which wasn’t bombed on each occasion with less than three hundred aircraft. So that you hoped that within that aiming point you would destroy it. And I think we did a lot but not all.
CB: Saturation bombing.
ESH: Yes. That was the idea. Saturation bombing [pause] Stop.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: Now, some of your endeavours at bombing these V1 sites perhaps were more effective than others. Was there one site you went to several times?
ESH: What? A V1?
CB: Yeah. In Dieppe.
ESH: Yeah. Foret de Dieppe. Did I not mention earlier?
CB: No. So, just, just cover that can you? The fact you went several times.
ESH: Oh yes indeed.
CB: Why did you go to that several times?
ESH: Yes. In order to mitigate this nuisance of the V2, V1s of which many thousands were being aimed at England at the time on a fixed track. One morning, in fact five or six mornings continuously we searched out a fixed ramp in a forest called Foret de Nieppe. Which of course is in the Pas-de-Calais, if you can find it. And it took thousands of tonnes, must have done, to obliterate that site. But it was, it wasn’t able to fire off these V1s in rapid succession because, you know the Germans were very thorough and got it to a high state of proficiency but we did concentrate for many weeks and months on finishing off these P-planes because it was aimed at civilian population.
CB: How many times did you actually see V1s flying towards Britain on your way to the target?
ESH: Well fighter pilots did of course but not, not us.
CB: You were too high up, were you, to see them?
ESH: Yes. I mean they didn’t, they came in at about two thousand feet so I can’t say I saw one. But I saw the damage and I experienced a V2 standing on Albany Park Station which was on the, what’s called the Dartford loop line. Bexley Heath, Barnehurst and down there. And I was standing on the station and this thing dropped a quarter of a mile away and I had to ask the station staff what that was. I mean, you know, I didn’t see it. If I’d have gone along I’d have seen a row of houses demolished but that. No.
CB: And what was their reaction to your question?
ESH: Who?
CB: The railway people.
ESH: Well he sort of said, ‘Where have you been?’ Because it was — this is not live is it? Well he wondered where I’d been not to know that London was being plastered with P-planes bombs. That sounded by the way like a common 6oo cc motorcycle engine.
CB: And you weren’t able to tell them what you were doing to counter this. You weren’t able to explain what you were doing, to the people in London.
ESH: No. Well they could see —
CB: Bombing.
ESH: They could see I was in uniform.
CB: Yes.
ESH: But they were so busy with their ordinary lives that I was just one of two million servicemen. It didn’t rate more highly than that.
CB: Right. Ok.
ESH: Pause?
CB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So what other events were noteworthy.
ESH: Ah well, now what comes to mind straightaway is on the way in to a target to see an actual aircraft hit. And you must remember this has got a full bomb load of what ten [pause] what had we got — five twenty thousand pounds of TNT going up as well as the fire bombs, and it’s the most horrifying experience. But I do remember that occasion when — and the skipper was quick to point out that the Germans did send up what they called Scarecrows. But I’m sure this would be more than that because the whole sky around that aircraft was just bits, black bits in the sky. Now, you see a Scarecrow couldn’t put up that much material could it? I don’t think so. I think this was a very salutary experience but you didn’t dwell on it because, well, you know, it could be happening at night time and you never knew anything about it.
CB: So we’re talking about night time now are we?
ESH: No. Night time, other than someone standing and throwing grit at your aeroplane that was the only indication you would have had that there were some shells very close by, but you see what the eye doesn’t see the heart doesn’t grieve. Although you might feel the effect of it, especially if you’d another aircraft in front of you you’d be perhaps very difficult as a pilot to maintain your position because you’re right in his slipstream. And there’s a slipstream of four engines just in front of you. I mean there were so many aircraft in the sky that it’s a wonder and in fact we lost a lot of aircraft because of collision. Indeed we did if the truth is known. No, there’s a bit of variation. We also had some trips with mine laying. Now, what happens? Mine laying. Well we had a chap from the navy came up and showed us exactly what’s going to happen because these things are quite weighty. I think they weighed about a matter of hundred weights and I think the maximum we could carry would be two. But there would be a whole squadron perhaps, or a lot of aircraft from other stations, all on the same business, and so off we went out across the North Sea and in to the Baltic. We had to pass over an island called Bornholm. Now, how far it is into the Baltic I don’t know, not very far perhaps because we were after this shipping route between Swedish oil coming down to feed the German factories. But I do remember dear old Bornholm put up some ack-ack you know [laughs] as though they could catch us with it. One little gun you know. It was a bit of humour in a not too humorous event. But that made a change from flying over the Ruhr because actually the first time I saw the Ruhr at night, well you’d never believe it. We came into the south of Ruhr and there was a bank of searchlights for the next fifty miles. Up and curving around. And, you know, when the chaps had said you’ve got to avoid searchlights I can understand because once you get pinned or —
[Mobile ring tone. Recording paused]
CB: So we’re talking about in the Ruhr and the way they would have, the place was defended.
ESH: Yes. Right.
CB: And how they were able, in the dark to track where people were going.
ESH: Well if I describe the scene.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: The first time you saw these early night trips that we did it took a bit of getting used to. And the first time I saw searchlights. Now, if you can imagine Kiel up in North Germany. Right around and come down through the rest of the Ruhr down to [pause] what town would be the south of the Ruhr?
CB: Stuttgart. Stuttgart.
ESH: Stuttgart. And Nuremberg. That is something like fifty miles isn’t it? Or more.
CB: More.
ESH: A solid ring of thousands of searchlights, it was like day. And it curved actually from the north right down. Facing England to the south. Stuttgart. Nuremberg. And even further south than that I think. A solid — banks of hundreds. And if, if you got near one they had one particular, in groups, they had one particular searchlight which was extra powerful and it used to show up blue, and, well we did get coned on one occasion. We were lucky because very often you couldn’t get out of it. There were so many and they could sort of follow your track and there was this master searchlight and everybody else was following. And what we did, we managed to get out by just diving and weaving. And I suppose we lost a few hundred feet and you had to make that up because you had a flight plan. You know, you didn’t depart from that flight plan. You just didn’t go off on your own doing your own thing. That was certain, certain tragedy that would be because you had whole squadrons of night fighters still and they were still able to fly. Although, they couldn’t do the training because they hadn’t got the petrol, so the petrol bombardment was beginning to show. I mean we’re talking now about mid-’45 aren’t we, you see? Sorry —
CB: ’44.
ESH: ’44. From ’44 to the end of ’44 it was gradually having an effect on German oil production, synthetic oil. And of course being as they were small patches they were very difficult to find. I mean, you might have one oil refinery and its ten miles from the nearest town. Now, you’ve got to be very accurate to get anything delivered to that site and — if you could get there, you know. But of course the German fighter production was going down so fast that I think we had a charmed existence from nineteen — from June ‘45 really to, or September ’45 to the end of [pause] ’44 to the end of ’44. I mean we were very busy D-Day time for the next three months, and then it sort of slackened off because you were limited to what you could do in the way of army cooperation. In fact the army didn’t want the Air Force to take full credit for having liberated Germany. So [pause] but raids were still being, operations were still being carried out by the squadron right through to mid-‘45. Or ‘til D-Day.
CB: You talked about the intensity of searchlights. What effect did that have on the air bomber’s ability to identify the target?
ESH: Well, searchlights. Yes. But you had visual and of course later in — from D-Day onwards the squadrons were equipped with H2S which was radar with the ability to show up features on the ground. To be able to distinguish between water and land. Now, if an oil refinery was situated just off a river that aiming point would certainly be able to be calculated and it left an aiming point for a whole squadron of aircraft marked by Pathfinders. You didn’t go on your own. It was, at that time, after D-Day, everything was Pathfinders and they would blaze the trail and you’d have a Master Bomber and he would come through your RT. I remember one occasion when the Main Force was given a name so it would come out rather like this. ‘Widow 1, Widow 1 to Main Force. Bomb the red TIs.’ And then a minute later, ‘Widow 1 to Main Force. Bomb the yellow TIs.’ Because of bomb creep.
CB: TI being target indicator.
ESH: Target indicator. Yes. So you had a whole spectrum of colours. Red. Green. Blue. Yellow. And they could be changed rapidly by RT from the master bomber to the main force so that he kept, you kept pace with bomb creep and you became more effective with that. In fact very effective in the end. I mean such people as Wing Commander Cheshire as he was then would be up the front there giving the, giving that RT direction.
CB: Would you like to just explain what is bomb creep? Bomb creep. What is it?
ESH: Bomb creep. Yes. What happens is that [pause] it creeps back rather than on to the target. How it happens — I suppose if you’ve got a conflagration then bombardiers could think that that was where you should be aiming. So a lot of aircraft, I mean, don’t forget there are five hundred aircraft on this job so that some of them would think that was the target. But, so the Master Bomber had to keep reminding people that it was creeping back and it shouldn’t do. He’s got to go on to his new target indicators. And he changed the colour of course. So you knew what to look for. Otherwise your bomb load was nullified.
CB: Ok.
ESH: Go on to [pause]
CB: Yeah go on. So we’ll stop there for a mo.
ESH: Yeah then —
[recording paused]
ESH: I said Cora’s mum and dad yes.
CB: Yes. On a slightly lighter note clearly as a crew you had your, and personally you had your social side. So what did the crew do, and what did you do individually?
ESH: Well, that’s what I did individually and didn’t take any part in any social activities with the crew.
CB: Right. So what did you do?
ESH: I didn’t go drinking, you see.
CB: No. So what did you do?
ESH: I spent most of my time in York.
CB: Right. And what did you find there?
ESH: This family.
CB: Right.
ESH: And I was made like a son.
CB: Were you?
ESH: So I didn’t — we all went as a family to the theatre one evening and we saw the famous lady who had just started acting. She was in, “Last of the Summer Wine.” Very famous. You chaps have got memories haven’t you?
CB: We’ll latch on to her later. So, but but the family —
ESH: I’d better jot her name down while I think of it.
CB: Ok. Yeah. So you —
ESH: Thora Hird.
CB: Yeah. So the family was in York. What did the father do?
ESH: He was invalided. He couldn’t do anything because of the start of silicosis.
CB: Right, but what was his trade?
ESH: That was — he was in charge. He had his own firm of plasterers.
CB: Right.
ESH: So I’ll go on to that. I’ll just make a quick note, Thora Hird.
CB: And they had a son and a daughter.
ESH: Yeah. Yeah. Famous restaurant in the middle of York. Still there.
CB: But you’d go to that as well would you?
ESH: Yeah. I’ve got it. Yes.
CB: Go on.
ESH: Ok.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: Live?
CB: Yes.
ESH: We were talking about the social life on the squadron. Well, as I say I think I was eighteen when I, nineteen when I arrived there, and went out into York and I met this delightful young lady called Cora. And she said, ‘Well, if I’m going out with you my people want to see you.’ So I went along and they became my mum and dad for that time. And her dad was a, had a plastering firm but he was suffering then from, I think, the start of silicosis and he couldn’t work but nevertheless they went out of their way to look after me, and of course the extra attraction was of course la belle Cora. And at that time there was a show going in York and who should be a young actress was Thora Hird. But I don’t think she remembers that herself now, bless her. She’s passed on hasn’t she? But Mr Parker’s claim to fame as a plasterer was the ceilings, for instance, in Betty’s Bar. Now Betty’s Bar is very well known in York and it’s still there. And if you go down into the basement you will find a mirror which is now cut up into three parts. And pretty well every famous flyer has got his signature on the glass having done with a diamond ring. And they’re all there. I think you’ll find Group Captain Cheshire left his mark there. And quite a lot of others passed through but they’re all on this mirror. So that’s down in the basement of Betty’s Bar. It’s worth going down to see. There’s history galore down there. So they looked after me like a mother and father, not withstanding the fact they had a son in the Middle East. With the 8th Army I think it was. But of course being really a dangerous occupation I had no business stringing this girl along. I mean I was her first boyfriend and you know the effect that has on young ladies. So, the crew were very good. They didn’t question me as to where I was spending all this time you see. Which brings us to —
CB: How you broke it off.
ESH: How we —?
CB: Broke it off.
ESH: Oh yes. I mean, we used to have, our famous perambulation was around the wall of York. And, you know it took quite a time so, and broke her heart I’m sure, but it had to finish. It would had been too traumatic otherwise. And we were then left to finish our tour which, there again was mainly oil installations. But come September of ’44 the CO called us all into the briefing room and said, ‘Now we’re all going to France tomorrow. We are bringing petrol to the army.’ The army was fighting at Eindhoven and so they said, ‘You are going to be loaded up with petrol,’ which they did. Each aircraft. Two hundred and fifty, five gallon cans stacked along the fuselage and tied in so they didn’t bounce around. Off we went to a German field which they’d laid out what’s called Sommerfield tracking to stop an aircraft or aircraft and vehicles bogging down in a puddle. So that was rather jolly. I mean there we were — flew a hundred feet all the way. And really that’s one of the nicest things to do, you know. Flying low level where we’d see haystacks with pigs on top because Jerry had pulled the plug on the dyke. Very naughty of course but you know it really devastated thousands of acres. And we had to fly over that into Brussels. Well into an area of Brussels called Melsbroek which was just a grass field. And it was very enjoyable. We landed there and fresh air and went to the village and do you know what? There were grapes growing on the trees. Oh grapes. Well, I mean who wants to leave there? Anyway, this so happens, you know that we tried to get off the next day, I’m sure it was the next day. So soon you could be accused of organising this. But we oiled up the plugs trying to get out of a big puddle and there’s no way you’re going to get out of it because what the wheels do and they’re big, they just churn a great gap, pit in the soil. So therefore that was, we were stuck there until you get a fitter out with a set of plugs to put it right, and I think all four engines were oiled up. Anyway, that meant that we had three days in Brussels. So what did we do? The first day we piled into a local tram and went into Brussels where we stayed at the Gare de Nord Hotel. And I was the only one who had any money [laughs] you know, because they said now any money you’ve got to change it. You’ve got to, sorry we had to change it for the currency that was wartime currency. And so of course our money was soon gone staying at hotels. And we went in to one, oh yes we, I must tell you a little story here. We went in to one hotel and up to the second floor and it was a night club with an amphitheatre and a stage and events, you know. Acts taking place. But on the way up the staircase in a corner there were two six foot six American sergeants and they had a lovely carton of cigarettes, a big carton. And they were presumably flogging them off. I mean if they could get another carton like that they’d make a fortune because there were no cigarettes in Europe. In fact, people would give you their gold watch for a packet of cigarettes but that — now our rear gunner being a sort of international type said, ‘No,’ we must find, he’d come from Canada on, he was trained for something else in Canada because he talked about Montreal. And he said, ‘We must see an exhibition.’ And actually it wasn’t what I fancied but anyway we didn’t get that far because there was no exhibition. So we met this old boy in the road and Ron says, ‘Exhibition?’ So, he didn’t speak French perfectly. The chap was quite happy. This old boy. ‘Come with me. Come with me.’ And off we went with this chap down the main thoroughfare and down some back entrances, back places, back roads, alleyways to a pub. And this pub was run by this aged lady who sat at the high stool and dished up what went, passed as beer. And there were us. We were all sitting around on stool, a continuous stool like in a queue. And I mean, you know, it was alright. A bit of light fare. And the skipper was there of course and he hadn’t taken his hat off that time. And in comes all th ese girls in bathing costumes. I mean, to eighteen year olds you know this is seventh heaven isn’t it? What’s next then? And they were sitting on our knees and some of them very shapely. And the skipper suddenly caught on, he said ‘Right. Here’s the gun. Out you lot.’ And we had to leave because it was a brothel wasn’t it? And he wasn’t, he wasn’t having his crew sullied by such goings on. So, that was, that was Brussels for me.
CB: So you got two black eyes and you couldn’t hear anything either.
ESH: [laughs] So. No. We had to make apologies to these young ladies and disappear. We would have liked to pass on perhaps a bar of chocolate.
CB: Of course.
ESH: But we didn’t go prepared. But it’s a pity. But Ron did — he went to a private family that night. I don’t know what the attraction was but anyway he did — no. Johnny Morris this is, ex schoolteacher. He obviously thought about it because he brought a bag of coffee back next time and made arrangements for it to be delivered to a particular curie. A priest at the local church who he had met somehow. But that’s the best we could do really. Normally you went in with your two hundred and fifty gallons. The army came up with a truck, unloaded [pause] and there we went off again. The next day with another load. So we were really kept busy bringing in something like two thousand gallons at a time for the army to use up at Eindhoven. Because they were six hundred miles from the port at that stage and just couldn’t keep going, you know. I thought I saw somebody moving out there but maybe I’m wrong.
CB: So did you carry, did you then later deliver any other kind of goods or was it only petrol?
ESH: Only petrol. But I believe later. Very soon. Our squadrons were engaged on dropping supplies to Amsterdam and it made a great impression on our Dutch friends.
CB: That was food. Operation Manna.
ESH: Yes.
CB: Yes.
ESH: We weren’t engaged on that but rather carried on with the last few trips into Europe.
CB: So when you come to the end of your tour what happened then to the crew?
ESH: Ah yes. Well, do you know on the aerodrome was an experimental department run by a squadron leader. And they, one of the problems with the Halifax was coring of the oil in the oil tank. Super cooling. And it was called coring. And every effort was being made, well funny enough in my tour I never came, never had the problem. I dare say we never flew in an icing. What you call an icing.
CB: Weather condition.
ESH: Yeah. You get icing conditions at certain heights and if you stayed in it it was very bad for the oil coolers but we managed to keep out of that. But a lot of experimental work was being done because a lot of the aircraft did — was affected. And so they, we worked for the experimental department there which was set up at Pocklington. Going on cross country’s with modified aircraft that in effect would fly through anything up to Scotland and back in the hope that we would be able to pinpoint the procedures to cure it. But unfortunately we had an aircraft, an aircraft engine go over speed for some reason so that rather folded up at that time.
CB: Which kind of engine was that?
ESH: Well, Halifax — a Bristol Hercules 100. That was the latest. But coring was a very difficult thing. So of course what was happening was that everyone was now asking us to be re-mustered. There was nothing for us to do except hang around. So —
CB: Was there an option of going on another tour?
ESH: Oh yes, that was always an option, yes indeed. But — and a lot of the chaps did but I think I was more anxious to go back to civilian life. But I was ‘Duration of Present Emergency.’ Or I was D of P E.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: And of course they were not giving out any commissions at that time. So there wouldn’t have been a lot of future in staying so I applied to be re-mustered.
CB: And what happened?
ESH: And then left Pocklington.
CB: Ok.
ESH: Being posted to whatever came up in the Air Ministry I suppose. And off we went then re-mustering at a famous station for the army in north Cornwall — north [pause] Catterick. Now, there was a little RAF station for re-mustering at Catterick in an ex-mine working. Anyway, my number came up eventually but in the meantime we were sent on indefinite leave. Now, I didn’t want to have to pay to go to the skipper’s wedding because train fare was quite expensive. But I gave his address on my 48. My seven day pass as it were. Or indefinite leave. The consequence of that will be explained a bit later.
CB: Right.
ESH: But from there I got a letter a little later being posted to the Isle of Man as an airfield controller. But it just so happened that my papers actually never got to my home. They got to the skipper’s address. Now, you can have a bit of a laugh if you’ve been in the service because this was six weeks later, or rather that was alright but it was the last seven days. I was absent without leave. But I turned up. I was on my way to the Isle of Man. Well, I got to the Isle of Man alright. Yes. And having got to the Isle of Man you got off at Douglas and, you know, looked at the local restaurant. Two eggs, steak and chips, that’s marvellous. Have some of that. So immediately dived in and had a good nosh as we used to say. And then you got a little local narrow gauge train up to the Isle of Man up to the north. Because I was going to be stationed at a little place called Jurby which was a good hopping off point for anybody going to or coming from Reykjavic. Which, I would then put three searchlights up to guide them in. But it was more disastrous from my point of view because what could the CO do? He has a chap seven days adrift. The first — I went to the guardroom and he said, ‘We’ve been looking for you. You’re seven days adrift.’ So, go up before the CO. Very nice chap. By the way first of all you have to be vetted by the station WO and he actually said, ‘Do you know I’m awfully sorry to have to do this but you’re up before the CO tomorrow.’ So, you march in, in the usual way with the, you know, left right left right left. Turn right. ‘So young man. What do you want to do? A court martial or do you want my punishment?’ ‘Well your punishment sir. Thank you.’ ‘Right. Seven days loss of pay.’ And do you know what? You can imagine the scene can’t you? Pay parade. And you announce yourself before the cashier’s table, ‘1869854 Horsham. Sir.’ And he would say, ‘Three and sixpence.’ This went on for weeks at three and six pence a week it takes quite a time to get to four pounds forty. Seven days pay you see. You can clue that if you like but its [pause] but indeed I think because we had a chap at High Wycombe and he was called Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Harris and of course they did think twice before they shoved the book at one of Bomber Harris’s boys. And I think I was saved by that because it’s a heinous crime in the air force to be AWOL anywhere. Anyway, we carry on from there because I enjoyed the time on the Isle of Man. Being in charge of the airfield. Not a lot went on but we did [pause] we were a home for stray aircraft and of course the station was very busy training the rest of The Empire Air Scheme for training navigators. And we would use, or they would use Ansons. So of course we had a squadron of Ansons to fulfil the contract. And of course my job, one of the jobs, mine and my crew — I had a crew by then of Scots lads that were setting up a parking area with glim lamps every day, because they were doing night flying, and these glim lights were fuelled by accumulators and shone a red light. And you had to put them in a certain order because then the aircraft on the way back knew where they were to park. And they used to get it in the neck if they ran over a glim lamp. Other than that when we wasn’t flying we were all in flying control and we used to do a shift where we had two and a half days off. They still do that in the police force apparently, here. Afternoon, next morning or night, off the next day and the next day and the following morning. So that enabled you to go and see the local sights. Peel Castle on the Isle of Man. And of course we did get busy aircraft and they would come in some awful times from Reykjavik and sometimes I was, what did they call it? Duty officer? Duty. Yeah. Duty officer. And I had to find them accommodation so I had to lay the law down. Pull rank on whoever was in charge of the blanket store so that these chaps had a night’s sleep and could get, we would — the cookhouse would provide a supper for them. That broke up your time. So, in effect, eventually they sent us back to the mainland. To top — I was stationed at Topcliffe which was an ex-Canadian station and underneath every table and ever chair was chewing gum [laughs] That’s how I remember the Canadians. But there was no flying going on which was a shame because we [pause] I was only thinking these chaps had applied for discharge and therefore I was in charge of an airfield with no aircraft. We kept the grass nice and tidy. But as I say we could go into, no, we couldn’t go in to Topcliffe for two eggs, steak and chips. It was unheard of. But what you could do is you could go to a local village called Topwith . Now, there are two brewers in Tadcaster. One is Sam Smith and one is John Smith. Now, you’ll know John Smith because his beer is everywhere but what we ought to have down here is Sam Smith’s which was thick and black. And it was as black as your coat. Black as night and it was the next best thing today to Mackesons. But you could get quite squeamish, not squeamish — quite drunk on it. So then you met up with a lot of other interesting aircrew and you absorbed their experiences, and then gradually, one by one, they disappeared. As I did one day. On the 2nd of January 1947, in the bleak midwinter. It was very bleak down south anyway and there had been a lot of snow around. One interesting side now, talking about cold. We were very cold in Pocklington so we could burn, burn bicycle tyres in the hut. But old Jim said, ‘Do you know what,’ Jim Finney that was then [pause] now wait a minute I’m wrong. Jim has already had that shrapnel in his leg. But anyway, there was another member in the crew. It must have been Alan Shepherd, the wireless op. He said, ‘I know. There’s a bottle of petrol over there.’ And somewhere someone had left a bottle of petrol. And it was a hundred octane. So he said, ‘Stick it in the stove to get it nice and warm.’ And it did. It blew the whole thing apart [laughs] Which wasn’t very clever was it? Anyway, we’ve left. We’re at Topcliffe aren’t we? And then, sooner or later, ok the 7th of January or thereabouts I found myself out on my ear having been discharged at, somewhere near Preston. And we asked for a taxi and do you know that’s the only time in my life so far that I ever have driven in a Rolls Royce. There was a very famous place near Preston. If it wasn’t Preston it was Southport where there was a big demob place. Anyway, that’s where we ended up, in a taxi going to Preston Station. And home on indefinite leave still. Well, no a fortnight wasn’t it then? Fourteen days and that was it finished. Now, the thing is then going back to the old firm. Now, I found myself in the railway estate office before long but they didn’t really want me I don’t think. They said, ‘You can go up to Victoria Station and go to the archives.’ Temporarily. So that was a fill-in job. Going back through papers going back to 1900 where people had to pay for a sort of fly privilege to bring a pony and trap on to the station property and they had to enter into an agreement. Time goes by awfully quickly doesn’t it when you’re demobbed? So I stuck with the estates office for [pause] until 1957. And I didn’t seem to be going anywhere much so I went out into the big bad commercial world. And went to a builder’s merchants called Roberts Adlard who were quite famous in the southern counties. Their headquarters were Southampton. I had this friend of mine who was a rep and that’s how I got there. But, and mind you I’d left London so it was a big change to go to work in Rochester Cathedral, Rochester, the ancient town on the Medway. Rochester Cathedral. Yes. And this builder’s merchants wasn’t going anywhere so Horsham said to himself, ‘Look. Hadn’t you better find a job with a pension?’ So I had experience in the estate office which was very similar to the housing department of Rochester City Council. And applied and got the job as a rent collector of all things. Going around collecting. They had five thousand houses all broken up in to thirty different schemes or so. So that enabled a transition from that to a more permanent sphere. And of course the only way you can get up the scale in local government is either by passing a lot of examinations or becoming a professional man, like, I don’t know, an accountant which is a good solid five years work. But no there we were at Rochester with several other ex-service people especially from the navy, being next to Chatham. And so we said, you know, ‘What about a rise?’ They said, ‘Oh no. No. No. We can’t give you that but if you take a certain examination there will be money in it for you.’ So the one I took was the simple one. It was the clerical division of local government. That is talking about local and central government. Writing an essay etcetera. And after six months we took the exam and we all passed. So we thought go and see the governor again now. A different kind of governor. And for passing the examination I think — I was paid five ninety in those days. So he said, ‘Yes. Well, you can go up to five ninety five.’ A five pound a year increase. So we’ve got to do better than this. So you had lists of jobs you see, circulated. And the next port of call was Maidstone Borough Council as a senior rentable assistant in charge of five rent collectors and proving the books every weekend. Now Rochester City was a purely written system. Now I got to Maidstone and it was all done by a machine called a Powers - Samas punch card accounting. And a dreadful business because my collectors used to go out with a run off. The rent for various properties. And they would put X Y Z here and they wouldn’t put anything on their sheet. So, immediately you were what –? Two pound fifty out. I used to be there at half past nine, 10 o’clock at night on a Friday balancing the books because you had, in effect, over thirty different schemes so you had to sit down and balance these schemes to find out where the error was. Which was good training wasn’t it?
CB: Amazing. Yes.
ESH: I remember the deputy who we worked under. You never saw the treasurer. He was the high and mighty. The holy of holies. But I saw the treasurer on one occasion. He said, ‘Horsham,’ he said, ‘How is it that you spent all this overtime?’ Four hours on a Friday night, you know. I said, ‘Well you know. The chaps put one thing on the sheet and then put another in the book.’ He said, ‘Horsham you really should consider the propriety of asking for overtime.’ It’s not much of a thing to a chap who’s just put four hours extra sweating his guts out. Anyway, that’s another aside isn’t it? Next thing is of course to get promotion isn’t it? And where did I go from there? Yes. I applied for a job in the County Council’s office, in the planning department. Which is where I ended up in 1978. Yeah. 1978. And then took a sort of early retirement.
CB: How old? How old were you when you took early retirement?
ESH: In ‘78. I was born in 1923.
CB: Oh right.
ESH: ’23.
CB: Fifty five.
ESH: Just short of sixty. Oh there’s a bit more to come isn’t there?
CB: Go on then.
ESH: Yeah. Well then [pause] I go back, to retrack a little bit. Going back to my days at Maidstone Borough. Wasn’t getting much anywhere and a friend of mine, who lived adjacent to us said, ‘Why don’t you come into the poultry business with me?’ He said, ‘We could then step the production.’ Because he was, he was managing single handed two thousand layers. So we promptly put some new housing up and I put all my wealth into it and we ended up with eight thousand head of poultry. Not quite as big as JB Eastwood who came along and said, ‘Look you chaps. I don’t care, I’ve got millions of birds. And I don’t care if I only get a farthing a head. I shall still make a profit.’ Which was quite true but it was disastrous for us because we couldn’t compete with that although we did very well. I mean we had a neighbour a few miles away and he was able to keep five thousand which was less than we had. And he could work in the mornings and take all the afternoons off and play golf. That’s what he did. We thought that’s a good idea. But we were saddled with our eight thousand and with fowl pest in the offing if we didn’t look after it then we’d be sunk. Nobody else was going to look after it. So you put in a fairly, a fairly full day. Eight till five minimum. But it was very good experience because it sort of taught me that come what may I could always get a job because you’ve got some skills. Especially you’d be very valuable to a poultry farmer if you could go in and say, ‘I can go in and look after ten thousand.’ He’d say, ‘Well, you know, I’m like Mr JB Eastwood. I’ve got millions.’ But nevertheless it was the same principal. So we didn’t make a fortune but we didn’t lose our shirt. I say we being collective. And then what did I do next? Well, I went back to the old firm didn’t I? Back to local government. Into the planning department this time, of the County Council. And my draughtsmanship experience came in very handy because we dealt with maps all day long. And so in 1974 I got the most marvellous job because the ministries were all on to local governments and County Councils to find out how many, what land have you got. You don’t even know what you’ve got to build houses on. And he said, ‘Well Horsham. The job’s yours. And we will depict it on a twenty five hundred scale ordnance survey sheets,’ which was a bit better than what you get on your deeds, you know. You could even show a rainwater pipe on a twenty five hundred scale. And Kent had forty seven, forty eight District Councils which I had to visit one after the other because if you didn’t carry the local authority with you you’d be sunk. They hated County Council. And they hated them because they put extra on their rates didn’t they? So that was a very enjoyable job. So thirty nine, forty, forty one, forty two [pause] No. What do I say? 1974 — 5 — 6 — 7 - 8. It took four years to do but at the end of the time we could show in the planning department that we had fifty two thousand units of accommodation each housing three people. That was your capacity then but of course a lot of it was land that you wouldn’t want to release straight away. I mean there was something like fifteen, twenty acres at Folkestone on the golf course. I know because I lived looking over these lovely green fields but you couldn’t release it all at once but that was my job.
CB: And you enjoyed it.
ESH: I enjoyed that. I never — it’s a time when I was glad to go to work because it was so, it was my job and it was interesting and I had to fulfil this promise made to the governor that it would be finished in a certain time, you know. And then we, we retired officially.
CB: When?
ESH: In 1978. 1978. Yes. Yes and went off to live in Cornwall for seven years. Froze the pension which was the thing to do. So I froze mine for another eight years so I had to go and get a job to keep the wolf from the door.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: Which I did. In Cornwall.
CB: Doing what?
ESH: Well, I saw an advert in the paper to the effect that, “Handyman wanted,” and they gave the telephone number and it turned to be at what was the Ritz Cinema which is now a bingo hall. And the idea was that I was going to look after all the maintenance. Well, it was rather nice to do something different if you’ve done the other jobs for forty years, you know. So I did that for two or three years. The firm was called Mecca. You’ll know Mecca. They’ve got them everywhere of course. All your Ritz cinemas now have gone to bingo halls. I had to do many things. Change all the lights and there was a lot of lighting. Also you had an emergency system on what was it? Ten volt accumulators which you had to cut in if your mains failed you had your own generator as well. So you had that system and you had emergency lighting if all else failed. So I enjoyed that job really.
CB: ‘Til when?
ESH: About three years later. Right up until about 1981. In that time my and a crew of two or three lads we painted the whole of the inside of the cinema including the ceiling. Which pleased the powers that be because they said, ‘Well done Horsham. We will send you to Tenerife for a fortnight for you to recover,’ [laughs] So that was something that came out of the blue. Yes. You see every year they have competitions and whoever wins the competition probably wins a place to summer holiday. And this time it was Tenerife. So there were about a hundred of us went off to Tenerife. All found, you know. Very nice indeed. Now, you wouldn’t get bonuses like that in local government of course. Since then I haven’t done much of anything have I?
CB: Throughout this time you were —
ESH: Hmmn?
CB: Throughout this time you were supported by this lovely lady. Ellen.
ESH: Yes.
CB: Where did you meet her?
ESH: I met her the first day I went to work for the railway. She was going on the same train. There is a station south of London called New Cross. So that people from further down went up to New Cross on the train and then down to where the estate office was evacuated. It was at Chislehurst. Now there was a big house at Chislehurst called [Sidcup?]. And it was on an elevated position and there’s the railway coming up and there’s the tunnel. Elmstead Woods Tunnel. So that’s, I met her in the train and she was busy there with her needles and you know sticking her little fingers stuck up like that click click click. And so that’s how it started. Her and her friend actually. Her friend was called Winnie Glover and I suppose she thought, ‘Well, she’s done alright for herself,’ [laughs] And that’s, we’ve been going ever since.
CB: When did you marry?
ESH: 25th of May 1946.
CB: And how many children have you had?
ESH: Two girls.
CB: So one’s called Gillian.
ESH: One’s Gillian. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: And she trained and became a teacher and married a headmaster. And then she went, they went off to Hong Kong and taught for seven years. And now she lives in an old mill on the Vienne River just outside Chauvigny. Whereas Alison trained as a nurse here and she trained in Weymouth and Dorchester and then went on to the hospital at Warminster. Hence the reason that we’ve came somewhere near her in old age.
CB: And she married a —
ESH: She married a —
CB: A doctor?
ESH: A sergeant in the MOD police. A young sergeant who is now or rather shocking really some year ago he went in one Monday morning and they said, and he has twenty five years’ experience as a policeman and by that time as I say, he was a sergeant. No. She didn’t marry a sergeant then but he became a sergeant. And they said, ‘We don’t want you anymore.’ Made him redundant, just like that. So, but funnily enough he still works as an instructor for the police. Driver. He trains their drivers and that’s what he’s doing today. Alison’s just finishing up her last eighteen months as a nurse.
CB: Well I think many many thanks, Eric.
ESH: Pardon?
CB: Many thanks, Eric for two and a half hours of interview. And absolutely fascinating.
ESH: Well it’s one man’s experience isn’t it?
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Eric Horsham
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASymondsHorshamE170105, PHorshamES1602
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:07:40 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Eric Horsham was born in East London in 1923. Leaving school at 14 he was a messenger at the Royal Ordnance Factory before working for the railways. In 1937 he joined the Air Training Corps and learned about aircraft maintenance. On his first attempt to join the Royal Air Force he failed the medical but a year later was accepted for flight engineer training.
Eric describes his basic training in London and Torbay then recollects his technical training at RAF St. Athan. He then went to 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Marston Moor and joined his Halifax crew. In 1944 they were posted to 102 Squadron at RAF Pocklington where there were told that they wouldn't last three weeks.
Eric and his crew carried out a vast range of strategic bombings including daylight operations on V-1 sites, night operations on The Ruhr and Essen, night and daylight operations to oil targets, minelaying in the Baltic. They also provided tactical support in support of Allied troops near Caen and in the Ardennes, where they were badly damaged by a fighter and the mid-upper gunner received serious injuries. After landing at RAF Woodbridge in fog using FIDO he was hospitalised and did not fly again. The crew also supplied petrol to troops in Belgium, enjoying the low-level flying on these trips
Eric describes the sound of shrapnel hitting the aircraft, recalls a bomber exploding in flight, but dismisses the Scarecrow theory. He describes the use of Schräge Musik against the bombers; how search lights in the Ruhr operated, the use of H2S and how the master bomber controlled the rest of the formation.
At the end of his tour Eric remustered and was posted at RAF Jurby as airfield controller. From there he went to RAF Topcliffe and was demobbed in January 1947. Eric went back to the railways for ten years before working in local government. He retired in 1978, moving to Cornwall. While at RAF Pocklington he dated Cora noting that her parents made feel like a son. But he then ended the relationship because, with his own life in such jeopardy, he thought it was unfair on her. After the war he married Ellen, who he had met when starting his first job with the railways.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Andy Fitter
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Bedfordshire
England--Devon
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man
Wales
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
France
France--Ardennes
France--Caen
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Nieppe Forest
Germany
Germany--Essen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Atlantic Ocean
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Denmark
Denmark--Bornholm
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1923
1937
1939
1940
1944-01
1944-02
1944-07-25
1944-09
1945
1946-05-25
1947-01-02
1957
1974
1975
1976
1977
1978
1981
102 Squadron
1652 HCU
Absent Without Leave
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
crewing up
demobilisation
FIDO
flight engineer
forced landing
H2S
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
love and romance
Master Bomber
military living conditions
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Pocklington
RAF St Athan
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Woodbridge
recruitment
runway
searchlight
tactical support for Normandy troops
target indicator
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
Window
wireless operator
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/233/3376/AColensoF170522.1.mp3
62f276f7578995b81676e568202f437e
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Colenso, Frank
Frank Colenso
F Colenso
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One oral history interview with Frank Colenso.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-05-22
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Colenso, F
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PL: Hello and, and first of all an enormous thank you. My name is Pam Locker I’m in the home of Mr Frank Colenso of [redacted]. Frank it’s wonderful that you have agreed to talk to us today and so a big thank you on behalf of the Bomber Command digital archive.
FC: Thank you for inviting me.
PL: It’s a pleasure.
FC: To do that.
PL: So, I guess what I, where I’d like to start Frank is to ask you a little bit about your family and, you know, a little bit about your childhood.
FC: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I come from a very old Cornish family. There’s a lot of names with ‘o’ on the end but we’re not Italian. My, I was brought up in Falmouth in Cornwall. My dad was a boiler maker in the Falmouth docks. So, I was a young lad at school, in the scouts, a choir boy in the Parish church. A boy scout for many years and then when I started work at fourteen it was as a recovery porter on the Falmouth Packet weekly newspaper. So, the, the reporter there was Alan, doesn’t matter, he was, I, I started the job in February 1939, when I was fourteen and a half and left school. So, on the newspaper, Alan the reporter was showing me the ropes and he was in the territorial associate, the territorial army so as we went through 1939 and the war was imminent in the UK and Alan was off to war so for, for the next two years I was on my own as a, but it was a wartime rationing of paper we had not a lot of space for much news mostly it was funerals and whist drives and things like this, council meetings and such. So, then when the war broke out that year and Dunkirk happened with all the rescue allied forces from the Dunkirk area, scores of ships came into Falmouth Bay and they off loaded and the soldiers, and they were processed and given some clean clothes I guess and put on the train. So constant trains going up country from Falmouth. And my mother was a red cross nurse at the time and she was nursing these survivors from that awful time. Very much a, upset by the soldiers especially those who had swallowed fuel oil in sea water, in a bad way. So, here we are 1940 and Falmouth was bombed. The town was bombed, people killed and because the Germans were on our doorstep almost the reaction the day afterwards for hundreds and hundreds of men to join the local defence volunteers along with us young lads. Not quite sixteen some of us, so but they took us all on into the local defence volunteers and started to give us something to do. In the initial few days we were cycle patrol with an old vicar with his automatic from World War 1 which only had about eight rounds. He was our leader, so we drove, rode around the high ground round Falmouth at night, especially at night. Watching out for people setting up lights to align a bomber with say Falmouth harbour or the town or whatever. But I think the Germans wouldn’t possibly not wrecked Falmouth all the dock and repair facilities so they aimed for the town. Because they wanted a deep-water harbour and that Falmouth is the only one down that way. So that was background. We were well trained. We immediately had the sergeants all had tommy guns. The officers had side arms, the revolvers or automatics. We had American Springfield 300 calibre rifles with fifty rounds of ammunition in, in a cloth round our ear and we were well trained. We were always at the range shooting regularly and when we were kitted out gradually with uniform, boots and everything a soldier has. Well almost everything. We were well trained we was parade nights twice a week. Firing on a range Saturday afternoon. They formed us into platoons and they started at night guards around six different parts around the town from the looking across the bay to the high ground and along the low ground on the little Penryn river. So that was a pattern of my Home Guard thing was every six nights night guard. Along with that we would do with the Army exercises with the Army which got us used to the whole area around Falmouth because we drove to all the little paths and by ways and short cuts and where the high hedges were. So, you could form an ambush then. Throw all the stuff you had on with a few little turnips from the field and then just disappear because that’s the point about you really you don’t stand and fight. You get them worried that wherever they go there’s a shadow that might be us or somebody else. So that was the pattern of it. But we were well armed, we had, we had grenades and [unclear] bombs. We had mortars, spigot mortars that could fire twelve pound or eighteen pound bomb. We had what we called Vickers machine guns. The newest guns which was like an aircraft type gun, 300 calibre. We had something like phosphorus bombs. One of the bombs had five-pound weight of gelignite in it in a glass sphere. There was sticky bombs which you threw and if you threw them hard enough you took the covering off to stick on things and explode. We’d have done ourselves no favours using these things, but this was desperate times. The Germans had come right through across into France, all up as far as Norway and down towards the whole French Coast. And we were next, they were unstoppable except they had to defeat the Air Force before they could think of crossing the Chanel. So that was the pattern of the first bombing of Falmouth started the Battle of Britain, early July 1940. So that was the bombing in Falmouth. We got used to it. You were, took notice of the, the air raid warning the warbly siren and you dressed, undressed very tidily because we only had candles in the bedrooms and of course in air raid you don’t light up candles you’d got to be able to put your clothes on in the dark. So, you took your clothes off and laid them out in the right order and you were the worse and we got dressed. We had a little attaché case with odds and things in case you were blown out of your house and we took shelter next door in Cliff Roberts’ house. We were a terrace house, he’d built a huge air raid shelter in his garden. Being a deep-sea diver from the docks he’d brought a great lorry load of wood home, dug a big hole in the garden, lined it and covered it over with massive beams and that’s — Dad sawed through the fence to make a little gate. So, air raid meant we dressed, took our little attaché cases, went downstairs, through the gate into the shelter and the next-door below us was a tug boat skipper, one of the Falmouth harbour tugs. He dug a big hole, helped by his two sons and cleverly when they got a bit tired, I suppose, Mr White would find a half crown, so that made the boys do a bit more digging. And I realised, I didn’t think about it, I thought that was real treasure they were finding but I think the crafty Dad he wanted to [laughs] keep them shovelling. So, he was — that was the pattern of bombing. We weren’t allowed to write up about things like that in the newspaper but inevitably wrote about the funerals. One occasion which I didn’t put in my diary, if you imagine a stick of bombs, a stick of four bombs, one landing, I think on the boards, boarding house school. Anyway, it wrecked that school. One was in the quarry. The next one was, we were exactly in line, the next one was a hundred yards away which flattened a house and killed the occupants. So that was a narrow escape. In the early bombing as well in Falmouth my pal who was in the scouts with me and at school, Jeff Maynard. He was in Lister Street with, along with two relations who had come down from London to escape the bombing and that particular raid, parts of the town, his house was completely blown apart and collapsed on them. They were under the stairs which was a strong point, recommended to be and the gas main had been fractured. The water system pipes were broken, so they were faced with the water and gas leaking. They were dug out by the rescue, volunteer rescue parties and luckily not requiring hospital treatment. They were found a house in the, in the country about three or four miles away in Constantine and now Jeff was due to start work in — where my brother worked in Burts the electricians which was only three hundred yards from his house, so when this happened, he had to get the bike out. But we were all cyclists. We cycled patrol. Only lasted a few, a few weeks to give us something to do. But we were well trained. We had Army instructors, we had all these weapons that we learnt. We did grenade throwing and mortar usage, using mortar. So then and along with this night exercises perhaps which meant we’d just come off night guard because of six nights, each day was different and there was an exercise that started Saturday afternoon with the Army and ran all through the night until Sunday morning when they hoped to finish it, so we could get home for our Sunday dinner. That was the pattern of it. So, you were very tired at times but that was it, that’s normal to be quite — and you were cold sometimes on guard because, it was before we had greatcoats, we would have a blanket round our shoulders, patrolling along the cliffs. With these little glow worms sometimes but for the first bit of a town boy your night sky is just a few stars here and there but when you are out in the country and there is no other light from anything else that big ball in the sky is something you’ve never seen before. So, this was the pattern. Along with this was all the newspaper work, meetings, council meetings all sorts of evening affairs. I had to write about court cases and I was getting half a crown a week. I, I started as an apprentice you see, and I was bringing myself up really. Well I was on my own. So, this was six pence a day but I was never broke. I think I gave my money, my mother something as well and we were lucky. The Cornish Echo was the paper that operated from Falmouth and I was very friendly with Bill Ward their reporter and of course typically we worked together. We always met at court cases and things. In fact, for court cases, if I sent my copy up to the Western Morning News by putting it on the train I was paid a penny a line and I was often getting more with my, whatever you call it, sending my material up to them than I was [laughing] but then that was [unclear] no [unclear] really. So, with the, with the shooting I became quite expert. I was a sniper, we were snipers in the, in my platoon, and so that when — later on it was time to decide what I wanted to do because conscription was looming and if you could volunteer before then you went where you chose to go. So, my pal Bill had — older than I, he was a grammar school boy, so better suited to be training as a reporter really, than a young lad with me like I was. Now, he was a bomb aimer on 50 Squadron later on. My other pal, Nick, whose father was in the Bristol Aeroplane Company a roaming repair and modifications man, he was down on — working on [unclear]. On a Beaufighter. And he said if you come down to the Lizard Peninsular where the big scanners are now, you come down and I’ll show you round the Beaufighter. And whatever else is there so. These, these places weren’t fenced. So, you just came across and of course it’s a treat for young lads of fifteen or sixteen to get inside an aircraft like the Beaufighter for instance. Anyway, he showed us around the, also Vulcan and Hurricane which was another fleet. So, later on Nick’s dad said I’m going to take you up to London, he said I’ll ensure you get on the train I shall meet you at Exeter where you change, and we’ll go to the Windmill Theatre, there’s something to somebody, somewhere we can stay so that then this happened. We went to the Windmill Theatre which was a, we never close was the motto. And the attraction there was the nude, the nudes on the stage. So [laughs] but they weren’t moving, they weren’t allowed to move just graceful poses. So, you can imagine that with the gauzy screens, I suppose, in front. I can’t remember quite but no doubt a clever way of screening the fine detail of them and then when there was a little interval and people were leaving in the rows of seats. If there was an empty seat in front of you the men would clamber over to get into it because when they had a few intervals they got nearer and nearer the action [laughs] or the inaction [laughs]. So that was one episode and my memory I took away of all things, not about the nudes but about Vic Oliver, who’s the son in law of Churchill who was a comedian and played a violin and he could do most marvellous things with that violin. He could make it laugh [laughs] which had us in hysterics really to hear himself. This was the world of darkness it was then during the war. So back home again it wasn’t long before Mick’s dad said you get a job in the, in the Bristol Aeroplane Company because with all you do your in work, you’re in your workshop all the time making things. Because I made a half scale tommy gun for Nick’s nephew and in fact, because I could copy the detail in, I was obviously capable of making it from scraps of things. I made myself early on a practice rifle. The right weight of ten or eleven pounds to strengthen up my old muscles because I was a little weedy eight and a half stone when the, in 1939. Later on, when I went to join the Air Force I was well over, well about ten stone plus. So, I did volunteer, no I did go to Weston-super-Mare for an interview and of all things to show how nimble and clever I was with my fingers I brought a cigarette lighter that I’d made, not really knowing that this was a joke. Everybody around the country would say all they do is make cigarette lighters in the factories so anyway the, then I had a letter to take me on and then I had another letter. The, all our recruiting has been taken over by the government so that agreement is not valid now. So that’s when I joined, I volunteered to be an air gunner. Went to the normal medical at Plymouth and then later on went to Oxford for an aircrew medical when they discovered that my left eye was below standard and my right ear. So, thinking back all these seventy odd years later really, that, that saved my life, that bad eye saved my life really because as we know half of the Bomber Command people never came back. So that was, so as I was unfit for aircrew and so stamped on my document, I believe, then I could have a choice of what I wanted to do. What trade for instance. And I chose to be airframe. Airframe mechanic to start with because Nick’s dad said if you’re an airframe fitter, it’s a use, such a useful thing to know and after the war you can turn your hand to anything. And, in fact, it proved right really. So that was my time when I was called up go to Padgate up around Manchester way, I believe, as a recruit to be kitted out and do a bit of marching about, I guess and, so that was the first time that I was in a hut with about twenty odd others. But really as I had been in the Home Guard with sleeping in a guard room every six nights with the noise that goes on and the bustle that happens at times, it’s no big deal. Same as being shouted at on the parade ground, that was nothing new. Whereas it was bit of a great culture shock for a lot of chaps first coming into it. So, I took all that in my stride. So, the recruits then, new recruits were off to Blackpool, billeted in the landladies houses, you would first of all when you arrived and got, got into a situation where you marched down these streets. They would halt and right fourteen of you in here. That’s how they set you off in the different houses and the landladies were I’m sure occupied all through the war. Which is why they were after the war able to have so many marvellous changes, I would guess that happened. So that was it, but you see Blackpool was marvellous it was the only place, one of the seaside places that civilians could come to. The aircrew chose Torquay as their initial training and Torquay itself was barred from anybody coming, the beaches were all mined, mined here and there. Well a lot of mines and they had big obstacles to prevent ships landing, landing ships coming in. So, but Blackpool with all its electric trams going up and down the long, long coast sparkling away at night, must have been a great giveaway. But often the Germans didn’t get across that far. So that was a marvellous place, four shillings a day was our pay, I think, but beer was I think, maybe went up to nearly a shilling a pint. Anyway, imagine the tower, Blackpool Tower, now inside the marvellous ballroom and we couldn’t dance but there were nine bars there and they were so busy, if you, when you wanted to get a drink you were, there was two deep in front of you at least and close packed, trying to catch a barmaid’s eye. Anyway,but it was such a friendly place and when Christmas came and New Year this was a great place where a lot of kissing went on and hugging and kissing so good for us young lads it was a real eye opener really ‘cause we weren’t into girls before then, we had boys’ things to do. We had the Home Guard to keep us busy. So, this was an adventure then. So, one of these girls was from Bury in Lancashire, an ATS girl. Yes, we palled up and I saw her a few times. Only kissing and cuddling, nothing beyond that. And then later on, a year later on in Burma when I found this tower, Blackpool Tower beer label and on the back, she’d written her address. So, I started corresponding and we had lovely exchange of letters and she was a great poet. She would write marvellous poetry. And then another girl that I was also friendly with later on, in Wellington, I wrote her, and that was a nice little friendly exchange of letters but that’s digressing really. This early recruit training, stamping of feet around the [unclear] whereas out on the parade ground there was a lot of swearing went on. In Blackpool ‘cause you’d march around the streets and did your square bashing there the, the one in command had to watch his, watch his language. But he often marched us to a particular café for the break time, so that meant he would have his free, free [unclear] and we paid a tuppenny of course. We had to have a bath Fridays, Fridays and Mondays because they would march us to the big communal baths there with a swimming pool of course, that was a great attraction. Derby Baths, I think. So, we did our training there, the assault courses. We were shooting, we were running around, which was making us fit. Basically, it was keeping us fit. And also, when you think, stop to think about it on a parade ground when you respond to every order immediately that sets you up for the pattern of the future when you do, you respond to what your asked to do without question. That’s the point of it I think. And then from there I went to Western-super-Mare where Locking is the training, one of the schools of technical training. So that was in the summer of forty-three I suppose. Yes, it was. And we were in huts there and in the mornings when we woke up and had breakfast we marched to the, where the school was with a band in front of us. So, this was a great place for being a seaside place, a lot of people there. It was in the summer especially but we spent a lot of money on the dodgem cars. It eats up your money really when you don’t get much a day [laughs]. Cuts down your money for beer or cider and then one time coming from a local village, walking back west to Locking I kept wanting to take my greatcoat off, lay it on the white line on the road and lie down on it. So that was, I had to be dissuaded of that was not a good idea. Because all the vehicles headlights were havoc, were completely masked except for a narrow slit which was guarded from going upwards by a, like a peak of a cap.
PL: Um.
FC: So, they didn’t produce much light so that was I’ll explain why it’s there, I would do as I was told. But the cider was a powerful drink [laughs]. So, from there a group of us, we were all airframe mechanics, we went, we were sent up to, to, to Shropshire, to Peplow. An airfield which was half way between Wellington and Market Drayton. Wellington is now Telford. The big city of Telford since we were there. And this was, we were, we went there as part of 83 Operation Training Unit, because Wellington twin engine bombers but we hadn’t got any. So those early weeks we were, I suppose, the advance, in advance of the advanced party, really, ‘cause they were recycling themselves from Wales where they were based to there so we were getting things ready. Did meet my old friend who, when I got, I can see his face now, the morning after I got the worse for wear I can see that disgust on his face now. So that’s a reminder that I shouldn’t, couldn’t, shouldn’t drink too much [laughs]. So that was a, a waiting time, working and waiting. We only had one Wellington there in a hangar with both wings off so and that wasn’t anything to learn from. Anyway, they did come and we settled in to some work then with the flying, daily inspections before flight, before flight the inspections turn round inspections and after flight inspections. Flying night time as well because they were doing navigation and working the crew up to a, to work together as part of it. So, but we only had a few other visiting aircraft come so it was only the Wellingtons and about time when they came back, we had all the engines had to be covered every night with a big, like an aluminium cover, balloon fabric with asbestos patches where it would come over the hot exhaust pipes. So that was a task at night in the wind trying to get these covers on.
PL: What was that for Frank?
FC: The reason for covering them over was to keep the moisture out of the engine otherwise the electrics, I think that was a good reason and they wouldn’t — the oil wouldn’t be, wouldn’t be as cold because turning over, if the oil is thick and cold it takes more effort to turn it over by the starter motor so there’s a reason for it. So really, we didn’t have real contact with the crew. We just helped, just supported the ladder as they climbed in, I guess and normal conversation I expect but no, not much memory of any detail of them. But once starting, once started and the signal for chocks away we pulled the chocks away, waved it off and did our salute as they moved, as they gathered speed, so and this main runway, though I think it was newly, newly made because it was completely tarred with, tarred with a black pitch and then covered with oak chips, oak wood chips which were then rolled in. Now, what that was for, thinking back afterwards, partly it could be to camouflage a new runway ‘cause it sticks out like a sore thumb when its new concrete. Might have been that. But certainly, it proved to be a good thing to save tyre wear. You imagine with our training lots of circuits and bumps around the take-off, circle round and landing, you know scores, scores of landings went on that wouldn’t otherwise have gone on with a flight, a flight of Wellingtons. So then, from there I went to Blackpool again to upgrade to a fitter 2A, fitter 2A airframe, so that was more time at Blackpool and that covered Christmas as well so a bit of a repeat, but in the meantime, we decided we must learn dancing. So, at Blackpool, over one of the shops was Madam somebodies dancing academy, so there we were learning the quickstep and the waltz and the foxtrot whatever and I have wrote, written in my diary that I am getting quite good at the waltz, but I haven’t tried it with a girl yet. So, but you can imagine the tower, the marvellous ballroom there, same as the Winter Gardens, sort of a up market place that had all those facilities and a huge dance floor and stage for the band. The whole place was crowded. The bars were crowded sometimes two or three deep waiting, trying to get a drink and no wonder sometimes we drunk these bars dry. So that was where our money went and then in my diary, I realised that I would occasionally draw ten shillings out of my Post Office account to keep my appetite for the old John Barleycorn [laughs]
PL: So, what were you doing at Blackpool when you returned to Blackpool?
FC: When I returned, we went to Wharpton[?] on buses and there, there was another school of technical training. I think it was Wharpton[?] but since called Warton, and so we were doing benchwork and my diary reminds me that I was nearly top of the class for different things like this because I had always been making and mending things as a boy, even when I was a reporter I spent a lot of time in my workshop making this tommy gun, half size tommy gun and making myself an automatic pistol, but it wouldn’t have been automatic but to fire, point two-two ammunition, but prior to that with my little cap gun, made of a steel castings probably put together for a roll of caps. I modified this pistol by drilling a hole where the hammer struck, just the size of a point two-two blank cartridge and then the hammer I drilled it so that I provided it with a spike which, when you, when you discharged, when you pulled the trigger that set the round off but I made a mistake really. I should have had it in the vice when I first fired it but I was holding it like you would and when I fired it really when you think about it there was no where particular for the, for the, blast to go, all it could do was to throw the side, pivoted side part of it off and crack, crack it off to my finger, so I thought I won’t, I won’t use that again.
PL: So, what were you making at the technical school?
FC: We were doing, we were doing filing. We had to file within a few thousands of an inch or even less. You were drilling, you were making brackets shapes, folding metal, drilling the holes, riveting, getting the, the idea of the rivet clearance hole and so on and riveting up and you were judged on the final product. So that’s where I got top marks again. So, I graduated, if that’s the word, we never used that, came away with a, with the upgrade which I think it gave me six pence a day more which was well worth it. So then back to the, back to Peplow, carrying on with the and then I was in modifications section and the diary reminds me that we’d start picking dual control on a Wellington on one morning we’d work all day, all evening, right through the night until six o’clock or so in the morning when we’d finished the job. We made provisionally an extra seat in that position because normally the pilot sits on the left with easy access for the crew down to the bomb aimers section and up to the front turret, but once the seat was in it was a bit of a squeeze to get by so we fitted an extra control column linked with the first pilots’ and another job we did in the modifications thing was strengthen up the under-carriage attachment structure. Where the under carriage pivoted from to, to be trapped that had to be reinforced. The radius rod which braces the length once it’s locked down, that structure was cracking. There was a, actually there was a heavy landing or any landing that was the, the main attachment pivot point and the radius rod attachment rod were trying to spread themselves. So, we, the modification was to strap a diagonal strut to strap between the two fittings which had I think three quarter bolts on it and my diary records that we did this Wellington in, on one side in eight and a half hours. So typically, with modifications seems to take time to do the first one but once you get the swing of it. And then because, because once we did that the aircraft had to have a test flight which meant all the crew positions had to be occupied, not just the pilot and his engineer. So, I was in the tail turret for this first flight I’d ever done, proudly stroking the, the gun butts, for the, the machine guns in there. So, we took off happily and we circled, climbed, circled and did different manoeuvres and looking over the fields for the first time from above it’s a real eye opener. Then there was an aircraft coming from behind, a single engine aircraft, I can’t remember what on earth it was but it was overhauling us from the star, from our starboard side and I knew, I knew you, you must never point guns unless you really mean, from the Home Guard you never pointed guns but in this case I was the hero with a wicked German and I was following him in the gun sights, I mean there was no ammunition, following him in the gun sights until he came along side by which time the turret was at right angles and there was an enormous bang behind me. And a rush of wind, a terrific rush of wind and what it was I hadn’t latched the doors, two doors together properly, which I mean it must have happened with lots and lots of other people at the time, so I nursed the turret back in line and scrambled, round to try and shut the doors because when it flew open and I looked over my shoulder at the green fields farm, you know, I only had a three or four inch strap around my waist and the chute, parachutes is clipped inside the aircraft in a bracket, so you’re a bit on your own there if you want to jump out. Not a happy place for anyone to be when things are happening for real. So, this is one of those things that the story must, must have been told endlessly if the doors flying open [long pause]. So, the pattern —
PL: So, so the point, what was the, what was the purpose of the test flight?
FC: Well the test flight was to, to operate the controls. We did other —
PL: Dual controls?
FC: We did other things regarding the rigging as well.
PL: Right.
FC: The, now, the undercarriage knock down selection [pause] it pulled the flaps, I think, partly down it was all through the aircraft, with all its trim somehow with its undercarriage dangling down, so it was linked up with the flaps but the, the, the point was if the — yeah, if they were flying and with the, with the trim controls, that was the other edges wasn’t it? Anyway, if you were flying and you operated the tail trimmer and then [emphasis] selected the undercarriage down, if you operated the tail trim too much and the flap and the undercarriage came down it would pull on the cable to do what it thought it had to do and it meant the cable snapping so it finished up with a spring strut being put in the cable somewhere I believe. But the Wellington was very touchy when you jacked it up in the hangar you had to, you had to know what you were doing. The jacking point typically you would think is on the point of balance but then that’s not a happy thing to do. You need weight on the tail when you’re jacking so because of this reason it depends, if you’ve got your engines in, it’s different to when you have got no engines in, but you had to watch jacking that you didn’t let it, let it tip so. It was a case of securing the tail wheel down till you were safely jacked and then the retraction we did, adjustments we had to make, the hydraulics all new to us we were learning how everything worked. We — when you fly the Wellington and if you think of a, perhaps a better with a low light coming across the wings you realise then what, how an aeroplane works, you get reduced pressure on the top side and increased pressure underneath. You realise then that being a fabric covered wing and geometric construction which is like a lattice work you looking across the wing, it’s like looking across a quilt on your bed, it’s all in squares, little square humps and you think it’s, that’s holding the blessed aircraft up that fabric. So, it’s well laced on.
PL: Um, um.
FC: It’s well secured, and the Wimpey could take a lot of damage. We didn’t have any damaged aircraft coming back to our patch because but, the, this design proved itself. If you had a big hole blown in it, it destroyed these, this lattice work then it wasn’t terminal for the aircraft. The strains could be shared up with whatever was there.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: And then they went — the ones that had an engine fire and maybe burnt the fabric off, burnt the fuselage fabric off right into the tail plane they would still get back.
PL: Good gracious. There’s sometimes you’d have aircraft coming back, and it was really a skeleton.
FC: Yes, I know. Maybe just one, one tail plane and a bit of an elevator to control. But they were sort of an all laid back aircraft in the air. They were moving a bit, when you’d, a lot of aircraft when you look back towards the tail, it’s like a, a ship at sea. They describe a little square pattern, repeated pattern, on a ship. I mean later on a troop ship, sleeping on deck the mast and the stars they would be making little squares in the sky. But certainly, as I said the, the, the low sun across the wing made you realise that you been,the aircraft had been supported by it.
PL: Um, um. So, can you take a guess at how many Wellingtons you converted to dual control?
FC: No, I didn’t record it you see I didn’t have room for recording things like that. It was all about the, the drinking and the dancing and the meeting of different ones.
PL: [laughing]
FC: Now one night, I’d forgotten about this. On one diary entry I’d drawn a picture of a brooch with a nice letter ‘M’ with wings. That was for one of the good girls that I was with and then, Marjorie, and then when I’d finished it, I mean in the diary it gives me away what type of chap I am. I, it came up so good, the words are in the diary, but that it’s too good to give to Marjorie. I’ll wait till I find another girl with a letter ‘M’ [laughs]. But in fact, I gave it to my mother.
PL: Oh
FC: Her second name was May but I said this is ‘M’, ‘M’ for mother.
PL: Oh, how lovely.
FC: [laughs]
PL: So how long, how long were you a flight engineer?
FC: I wasn’t a flight engineer, ground engineer.
PL: Ground engineer, sorry.
FC: Well this was once I was a classed as airframe fitter, fitter to airframe then, then I said farewell to my pal I joined up with, Jeff Grinden, of all things had taken his tenor saxophone with him, like musicians do.
PL: Um.
FC: Because he had a marvellous life, like pancake. We had a mountain of spuds to peel, Jeff would be tootling away on his saxophone. He’d go to the bands that were playing music for the, for the Officers’ Mess or whatever and of course abroad he had it all the time he was abroad. When, when we parted company at Bombay he went with others to the Cocos Islands on a Liberator Squadron in fact. But on the, when we were, the draft that I was in to go to Blackpool again, the ready crew, the ship from the Clyde at Gourock I think. That was at Blackpool again. So that’s where I said farewell to Jeff. Who was at the next town up from Blackpool. I went there, I shouldn’t have left the area really, strictly but said my farewells. Then my train to Gourock, or Gradock or whatever, whichever it was. There I was lumbered up with all my webbing packed up with backpack, haversack, kit bag on my shoulder trying to find G deck and A deck, A deck’s the lifeboat deck, a long way down. Coming down this wide, quite wide stairways, there was a chap coming towards me and I moved to the side and he moved to the side and we stopped. And I looked up and it was Jeff, so he was on the same troop ship [laughs]. Oh yes, G deck was a long way down.
PL: So how, just trying to clarify how you moved from working on Wellingtons. So, did that work come to an end?
FC: Oh no, we just —
PL: So, so how did you get to be on a —
FC: Well in my case, I didn’t know it at the time, they needed well over two hundred upgraded fitters 2A.
PL: Right.
FC: Airframe people. They did over two hundred airframe people to put them on a 9613B, now why did I think of that. Well our kit bags had it on. And on the troop ship we had instructions from the CG-4A Waco glider, a small glider.
PL: Right.
FC: Because we going, this was for Burma, for the going into Burma. So, we had all the instruction on it and then we got to Worli, to Bombay, Worli is a huge transit camp for people leaving and coming in. And when the dhobi wallahs came around in the huts asking for our clothes to be washed we innocently, naively gave them all our sweaty old clothing and when we — later on, we saw about four acres of khaki spread out to dry in the sun. So, but they had a clever code, they’d invented their own sort of barcode amongst themselves. Just a pattern of dots inside the collar perhaps and then on the, from the outside troops, I mean it was a four-year tour when I went, a four-year tour. They were, they wanted to raise some sterling, so they were selling things off and one, I bought a topi, a pith helmet, flat, sort of thick with a flattish top with a RAF [unclear] with an RAF flash on it. I don’t know how many — how much that was. Another one was Irish linen, a stone coloured suit in the RAF pattern which is starched. Very smart. So I bought that off him. I can’t just think what else. But I was proud to wear that suit, I’ve got pictures of it. So, in India, that’s right, that’s right, about eight or so of us airframe fitters went up to, to, to 144 repair and salvage unit which was based at the time at Risalpur, North West Frontier Province as we used to know it. Right by Afghan border where the, where the Khyber Pass starts.
PL: Um.
FC: Nowshera is a town across the Kabul river. So that was our first of the Indian town we went in, and I remember the cinemas there with Indian films and then there was a big pre-war army, army station with, with lots of facilities there, marvellous billiards rooms. We had our barrack blocks had a wide veranda, a covered veranda and a big rack to put your rifles in to lock them up and pegs over each bed to put your harness or whatever these cavalry people needed to have with them and we had our own bearer there we paid about six annas a week, of course clubbed together with a dozen of us. We had the young lad guarding our possessions and keeping the, keeping it clean. And then we got used to the Indian char wallah coming around with — on his shoulder was a harness arrangement, he carried an urn with a, with a heated, heated urn to, to serve up hot tea and egg, egg sandwiches [laughs]. So that was a good place and then Christmas came again celebrated with the officers coming round serving up the grub I suppose and 35MU was also based there. The maintenance unit. While we were there on the Frontier we were, we were, our particular party, working on the Hurricane doing a major inspection and completely recovering the fuselage with fabric, that was our task. And that had flown all the way from Burma. What they did, the aircraft in Burma that came to, need repair or whatever stage of air worthiness it was, if they had the, the time left on the major inspection date and could do it, they could fly as far as they could. They wouldn’t want to put all the aircraft into the first repair unit, so that distributed all across India. It went on, there was a three and a half year campaign, so you imagine it was a lot of work for the set up for the, right across India and of course that then was a good start when they started their own airlines later on. They had a lot of, a lot of experience in aircraft. So that was a, a memory that, and that aircraft turned up in Burma later when I was told to, when I was told to do something on this Hurricane when I was in central, lower Burma [pause] yes it, as you approach it you see how it settles, just checking the whole thing you walk around the aircraft checking things and typically you’d give it a slap underneath the fabric areas to check whether there was any water in there. So when I came to this Hurricane which had on its [unclear] a long piece of cord on the trailing edge on top of the trailing edge [unclear] and I said to myself ‘I was right after all, somebody else has done it’ and when I turned round to just look at and realise what number it was, it was the one that where, on the North West Frontier when it flew after we did all of the rigging checks, after the major,it was I think left wing low so having rigged it all with a, a positive droop or something the answer was to put I think eight inches of cord on top of the trailing edge of the rear, of the rear part of it. Bolt that on, which put a slight down pressure on. Just a gentle thing, but left wing low again and that’s why I put this quite long piece of stuff on [laughs]. So, the chaps were glad that it’s doing the, still going strong.
PL: Um, um.
FC: But, but when I first went, three of us got posted to Burma.
PL: Right.
FC: For a few weeks.
PL: So why did that happen? Was there just need in Burma?
FC: Well with, with the Air Force, no with the Army if you were in the regiment and down to a platoon, it’s like keeping an aircrew together in the war. These platoons have got to, have got to train together, whereas and they would, they would keep keeping that platoon together. But the Air Force it was all numbers, it was like if they wanted two hundred airframe fitters by that time, they went through their books and we met up with those we’d been training with as recruits. So, the time comes when they needed three chaps in Burma like they would happen. With the units, I mean they, this was another repair and salvage unit so three of us got our rations and I don’t know how long the railway journey took on these hard old wooden seats, where you had your mess tin and you had your loose tea and you went up on the, when the train stopped, you went up to the locomotive, asked the driver for some boiling water for your tea, he would blast this, you want to get out of the way, blast this super-heated steam which is well above boiling point, you know, it’s a super-heated stuff, down a pipe and then run water through it. By the time it came out it was boiling so that was our provision. And then on different stations the Indian fruit sellers were there and cakes and things you could get. So that was at Delhi. We didn’t get to the Taj Mahal we only had a day or two stop there. By the time we reached Calcutta in a big, in a transit camp there where, that’s where we was ventured in to Calcutta find where Thurpos[?] restaurant is and have a lovely meals there. [pause] So, then the, the journey on to where, whereby new unit 131 repair and salvage unit was. We had to go by train and boat and, and truck, across the Brahmaputra that’s right because the — oh the, with the Burma medal, the Burma star it was, it was for people who served East of the Brahmaputra, that was the line, so by the time we — when we got to Dhoapalong, not far from Cox’s Bazar on the Arakan Coast of Burma, the Bay of Bengal Coast. It was an airfield, we were in a lovely area which had bashas, lots of bashas which are huts made of — thatched huts with bamboo, woven bamboo side panels and things like that with, with beds in there. So that was — and then the airfields were Cox’s Bazar and Chittagong and so on. And we were repair and salvage so our task was to be in that position to, to be covering aircraft perhaps, and if you think of that coast, there’s a long beach, seventy miles long on one stretch of that coast, so a great safe landing for the pilot, not all that good for the airplane though, when you had to get there quickly, before the tide came in [laughs] so that was a — and if it was a belly landing job you had to try and lift it to get the undercarriage down and that was a task really and a half. So, but then they were desperate for any aircraft parts to be sent back to, to the big repair depots, that’s where they got their spare parts from. Now when we moved when Akiabyron[?] was taken, just by the Danba[?] Coast, we had an advanced party go down to get our new camp prepared and — oh and then I was tasked to be an escort for spares, going from Chittagong to Akyab and I wore my lovely stone walking out suit that I’d paid a few pounds for when I first landed at Bombay. I wore that and when I had to find somewhere to sleep I think because I was so well dressed, they said the CO is away you can use his tent and his bed. Clean sheets, imagine, this is, we shouldn’t keep the sheets on in case we made them dirty [laughs] now, so typically in the morning, no, there’s no, there’s no aircraft seat for you to return, they’re all jammed up with the wounded but while you’re here if you roll your sleeve up, to see, the [unclear] I think shows your, I was going to say postcode, your blood group.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, there was me in this MASH type forward hospital, laid alongside this soldier, for the first time giving a donation. Well its quite moving in a way and I remember thinking you could, you’ve got your religion here, I said, I’m C of E I wonder if my blood’s alright for him [laughs] thinking that, it set you up to do blood donation. For fifty or more times while I was at Farnborough later on. So that was my, the time when I —
PL: So, they just asked you if you would do a blood donation?
FC: Yes, anybody, any visitor wanted, any visitor they would —
PL: Right. Any visitor came along, and they would ask.
FC: Well, they were desperate days, weren’t they?
PL: Yes.
FC: And the wounded that were carried away in the daks[?], there were so many that were too, too bad to move.
PL: Um, um.
FC: And yet these forward hospitals had a lot, a lot on their plate.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, the only aircraft to come back was a Tiger Moth, a little biplane, a trainer biplane a very old design. So here I was with my, a, a thunderbolt propeller spanners and kit for a Hamilton propeller with that in the rear seat and sitting on the pilot’s parachute because he only had some blankets to sit on. And we were flying a lovely flight really up, just on, just inland of the coast, a nice area to fly in and this big, this big telescopic spanner with a tommy bar, I thought if any Japs come I should point this other weapon [laughs] like a —
PL: So, they’d think it would look like —
FC: Like a forty millimetre gun.
PL: Excellent.
FC: [laughs] So that was the only time I ever wore that suit once I was in Burma because I just put it away and went with a jungle green. So that was when we moved to Akyab that was, we were quite, it was a camp we were in, a flat area, if you — you only had to dig a hole, I mean, not knee deep and it would fill with water. So, you were alright for washing water and [pause] and Thunderbolts, Squadrons. New Thunderbolt Squadrons had moved in so I think the first day I frightened them, four or six of them were, had come from the airfield up the perimeter track around to, to where the runway was and one had got rather to the side of the, of the good ground and it sunk its wheel right up until the wing tip was on the ground so and that was all armed up you see, so we had to, that was our first salvage job to get that back on its, back on its wheels on its feet again but then nothing was damaged so that’s another Christmas tree to us we could take bits off as spares. I remember one chap there with his — he’d got a, I think it was a hydraulic tank all blanked off with a — he was putting air into it to check for bubbles so the only liquid around at the time was an open top had been cut open off a forty five gallon drum, it was a couple of feet of petrol in it so you submerge the tank in it to check for bubbles and somehow, I don’t know, it was stupid really cause you can blow with your mouth, you can blow a pressure of two pounds a square inch, but goodness knows what pressure he put on the tank because it expanded up almost to a ball and so he’d wrecked the tank but it was great for us it was like, it was like a kettle, once we’d left a few blanks on and a spout that was for boiling up our hot water for Crow the engine pit, the engine mechanic who was the butt of everybody’s humour. He would be grinding, grinding up this K rationed chocolate into little crumbs to make cocoa with, so that was a good use for that little tank. But another time, oh, we moved to a better area on a bit higher ground. And then the, the toilets had to be dug. About three barrels deep, a long way down and set up that for a latrine and the, the, they made beds out of telephone wire, bamboo poles and telephone wire, like a, like a grid, no springs but we were off the ground. So, when we moved — but when we were in Dhoapalong before we moved there to Akyab I’d made myself a camp bed. I went into the jungley bit where there was an old, one of our ground tanks abandoned and I used that to do the metal work for the legs of the, of the camp bed. I found an old tarpaulin off a lorry that I took to the [unclear] he was a tailor in the nearest village where he sewed up the canvas for the camp bed which cost me eight annas I think. So that was all it cost me. So that was good to have my own camp bed. And then I had a bed roll, a bed roll where you made your bed to sleep in and then you left it like that and you rolled it all up so you could easily unroll it and hop into it. Like a modern way of doing it I suppose. So Akyab —
PL: So what sort, what sort of date are we talking at now when you were in Burma? What sort of date was it?
FC: It’s in the diary, it’s in, just into forty-five, just into 1945. I got, it’s all in my diary somewhere. In fact, when I put in a claim for this shoulder that had gone wrong after they took, I had lots of cancer operations, they took a big one away from here which attached itself to my shoulder and neck muscles. So, once they took about three hours operation, anyway once that was radiotherapy on it.
PL: Um.
FC: To kill off the cancer, I describe it as a friendly fire that came. It was a risk with anything but certainly to kill the cancer. The fact that my shoulder dropped. This shoulder, the right shoulder has always been two inches lower than the left. Because the neighbour, who sadly died, he was a tailor, registered tailor, one of the top tailors in that line. Do all the Mess kits with their elaborate frogging and gold braid and he was — and he got me to try on the Sultan of Brunei’s Mess kit and Prince Charles’s Mess kit, in fact Len had made the Queen’s scarlet jacket she wore on early parades in London. Horse Guards Parade. He said your right shoulder is two inches lower. Well I didn’t know it. Didn’t realise it.
PL: Um, um.
FC: But in the bathroom with a mirror which shows the tiles behind you, he was right. But now this shoulder has dropped, now this shoulder is lower than this and you’ve gone out a bit out of kilter. And I have constant pain with it.
PL: Oh dear.
FC: My neck, tilts movement and I only got a sixty degree arc to travel through. So, but I, I tolerate pain really quite happily. I got peripheral myopathy in the legs which, which makes my leg burn. I can’t lay down in the day they just burn.
PL: Oh dear.
FC: But I can stand all day.
PL: Um, um.
FC: In fact, when they, when I’m trying to get to sleep and they burn, I’ve only got to lift the leg up, off the weight of the leg even if it’s soft or hard. Lift it up. Oh, it’s marvellous, I wish I could levitate my legs when I sleep. It’s not much to ask, I suppose. But that’s one of the things I’m , so I’m very stoical about that. But anyway, going back to Akyab.
PL: So how long were you there for?
FC: Well it’s —
PL: How did it all draw to a close? I mean it sounds like you became very clever at making something out of —
FC: Out of scraps.
PL: Out of scraps.
FC: Well this was our motto really, there was no job we can’t do was my corporal’s motto. So, you, there was great improvisation really.
PL: Did you have a workshop there? Did you have all the other kit that you —
FC: Well we didn’t have a workshop as such. I don’t, don’t remember much in the way of workshop situation. There’s a marvellous book called “The Bamboo Workshop” and I knew the bloke, the author of it, because in the early get togethers at, at the Albert Hall in London, this is in the early days, 1947 they had already had got together earlier than that, so each year we went to — for a reunion. Oh, anybody in South East Asia was there, you know Burma or beyond. Getting together because we want, we had [emphasis] to be together. You had all that time like, all unified in that in Burma and with all the, I mean it was a million soldiers in, in the fourteenth army, we were part of the fourteenth army. In fact, in, yeah, in General Slim’s book “Defeat into Victory” which tells the story of the defeat and so on. Just in the last chapter there’s a paragraph that stood out to me talking about 221 Fighter Group that, oh no, 224 Group was bombers, we were Fighter Group and then there’s 221, no we were 221, it was 224 on the [unclear]. Anyway it, he talks about the such close working together with the Air Force that we, we considered 221 Group to be, to be part of the fourteenth army.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: So that’s a good feeling really.
PL: Um.
FC: I’ve got newspapers of, we had a daily newspaper in Burma that came up with the rations when they flew rations, dropped rations, or flew them in anywhere. They tried to make a daily paper available which put you in the background of the what the rest of the world was doing as well.
PL: Um. So how long were you there for Frank?
FC: I had, when I joined, well when I was at Akyab, that’s right, that was maybe a couple of months later. I’ve got the dates, but then about a dozen or more of us were transferred to a number three repair and salvage unit, mobile unit which was formed in the Middle East, worked through the Middle East, come through India and then to the Arakan, to, to actually, took you up to Chapalong[?], this nicely set up with the bashas and things. In the book that was written that he wrote, Ranson, Samson, Reg, and he was always asking people in the Albert Hall ‘tell us about your units’. A lot of history and I regretted I didn’t tell him about 131 or number, well number three in the book was in the early chapter. But there were about twenty or more repair and salvage units that worked all across India.
PL: Right.
FC: And all into Burma. We were the number one —
PL: So, was it a sort of lorry, was all the kit, was it in the back, or how did it work?
FC: We were mobile, we had vehicles, we had three tonner lorries. We had high, high load up RAF trailer.
PL: Um, um.
FC: We had mobile workshops with a lathe, its own, it generated its own power a, lathe, a [unclear] I guess, a, but “The Bamboo Workshop” is a book that’s well worth reading.
PL: So, was that about — so, so did you work on the mobile, on, on the mobile unit?
FC: Yes. That was number three, when I was two years then with that unit.
PL: Right. Right.
FC: With the mobile unit. And so, they, when we joined the unit from the other unit, flew in, flew in across the mountains, the Arakan to Magwe I think, to — before they came down. We landed at Segore[?] it’s a Japanese built airfield just on the Mandalay Road up from Meiktila, only a few miles up there and we landed taxied around and the CO met us. Of course, you’re in a litter of damaged, Japanese aircraft and bodies around but the first thing he did because he was keen, ‘Are any of you footballers?’ And of course a lot, a lot put their hands up like they would because later on he formed — how many of us were there. Must have been a dozen football teams.
PL: Good gracious.
FC: And we played on the dirt runway. Not a happy place to come to grief on.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: But he — and then later on Kendrick, Squadron Leader Kendrick, he organised a, a bullet cart race down the runway. He got the locals to [laughs] bring their bullet carts on and the, the CO, Kendrick, he’d had a grass skirt, he’d got a proper grass skirt, but it wasn’t grass it was nylon towrope, glider towrope about as big as your finger I suppose but so strong, but, so the electricians jeep he had a, this for towing because a chain is a typical thing they issue or a cable but that’s solid whereas using, towing a vehicle out of the dirt, or the mud typically.
PL: Um.
FC: The tow vehicle could go forward and gather its strength up, pull on it without a jerk which could stall the engine.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: So that’s what he kept in the back of his jeep, but that disappeared and reappeared as the grass skirt. [laughs] And then he, he thief proofed his jeep, this electrician, so nobody could steal it. And what he, all he did, clever in my terms but simple. He had a change over switch, so what he did he interrupted the cable running down to the horn, horn, cause that’s just thin cable and then the starter one, button on the floor, that’s a, a small cable to trip in the relay to put the power in from the battery.
PL: Right.
FC: It doesn’t take a vast load but he, he got these side by side to the two-way switch. He could start the engine, nobody could start the engine because he’d cleverly moved the two-way switch. So, starting the engine was pressing the horn button, which nobody would have thought about. A thief especially. And the, the button on the floor, he — I think it you easily found with your foot. He put a little top hat shaped bracket over it with a hole in the middle to guard it, as a guard really.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: But it meant that he could casually go down and press that button to, to plug the hole.
PL: Goodness, gracious me. So, what happened next Frank? So, you —
FC: Well this was, we, we got, the unit, number three had just got there the day before and put up their old tents and all the place, the only place we could sleep was on the, in the cookhouse tent. That big hundred and eighty pounder tent, tent. So, we soon got fixed up with a tent and settled in. What were we up to there? Oh yeah. Meiktila in lower central Burma on top of the plains. There were eight airfields the Japanese had built. Pre-war there was one at Toungoo a bit further on the Rangoon Road, off the Rangoon Road but the one we were on had a marvellous runway, cambered enough to keep the water off.
PL: Um.
FC: And stop any pools developing whereas the perimeter tracks being flat, there were pools that, puddles and pools on that but they, but they’d excavated massive monsoon ditches and big storage ditches. Plus, they’d got the locals doing it all.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, it was, it was operable and they had their control tower up on, on poles on the, the, the trees. Well, well designed that was. And also, where the standing trees were, they got earth embankments to make a huge shaped pen to put the aircraft in.
PL: Right.
FC: So that on one occasion I was working on a Spitfire in this, in this pen. There was standing trees they’d left which was good for shade, you see. I was working on this Spitfire, sometimes if you had to put another tail unit on, you had to crawl down, you would support the aircraft prop, crawl down to uncouple the cables, trim the cables and the rudder and elevator cables and then the transport bolts on the, that took the, the front half, forward half to the rear half, a row of transport bolts to take out. That was rather a hot job. But this particular time I wasn’t there doing that when I was working on something on a little bench, it was a metal one, when, and I’d noticed this Hurricane with its forty-millimetre cannon parked outside and suddenly these cannons were firing right through the trees bringing branches down.
PL: [gasps]
FC: And I ducked under this little tiny bench and it went on and on and on. It seemed to go on forever but in fact I think their magazine holds about fifteen rounds. But if you think of [clapping] going on for — it seemed forever. We went around to see who’d, who’d fired this and standing in the cockpit a bit shame faced was the instrument man. He had put a new film in the cine camera which you matched up to the firing, put a new film in it, put the camera in, he [laughs] the Spitfire control column has a spade, spade shape, well that’s it. Suitable for your right thumb and the gun button has a guard around it.
PL: Right.
FC: So, if you’re working in the cockpit and pull it towards you and if you surround it you won’t set it off. But you’ve got the guard, you move it to a test position and then press it, that’s what he should’ve done, test. What he did was put it on full fire listening for this little whir of the camera and he’d got, fired this lot off and I think he, he was paralysed, he must of thought who’s doing that when it suddenly happened.
PL: Oh dear.
FC: But he kept his thumb on the button obviously.
PL: [gasps]
FC: And luckily, goodness knows where the shells were finishing up, a mile or two or more away. Because it fires about a two pound in effect a bullet.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: And they can be explosive ones as well.
PL: Um, um, um. That’s amazing.
FC: So that was — and we came around and everybody in the unit came round and the cooks as well and the CO come up in his jeep. So that he had to explain by Mr Neal who we called guns, called him guns after that.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: But particularly with the Spitfire, I mean the Hurricanes are totally big high aircraft on the ground a Spitfire is lower down so with the muzzles of the cannons.
PL: So luckily.
FC: You can be like a labourer leans on his spade, you drape your arm over that and it’s happened to people — those have been fired.
PL: [gasps]
FC: Been fired accidentally.
PL: Oh, my goodness.
FC: Maybe twenty millimetres [unclear] there. So, you see tail wheeled aircraft like the Hurricane and aircraft of that day, if they accidentally fire, they’re, they’re set up to about ten or fifteen degrees.
PL: Um.
FC: With a modern aircraft, tricycle undercarriage nose wheel, they’re parallel to the ground and if they fire any of those things of course, it’s just the height.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: To be aware of. So, you wouldn’t walk in front of an aircraft. [laughs]
PL: So, were there many accidents?
FC: I don’t remember many luckily, no, but it’s a warning when there were, to those around and you work safely.
PL: Um, um.
FC: Yeah, I’ve got all my fingers and thumbs. We had to — the one Spitfire that had a damaged wing we got the wing off another of our Christmas tree wrecks and fitted it. Now the pneumatics were connected up, the pneumatic pipes on the route end of the wing. And, now Rolls Royce can put the whole shape into the pipe on a, on a piece of paper but in those days the pipe was just lazily bent to a sort of “S” shape which is kind to the pipe you see but when you’ve got a whole group of them coming up like this from one wing and you take it off and you’ve got to put on another you see, easy to — so when the — right, when I went to test it, right, clutch down, hiss of the flaps. One flap went down and it copped, cropped the cannons in the wing so I thought to myself, that’s a problem with no labelling you see.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, this is a lesson that —
PL: Um, um.
FC: You label everything. But if you got the one wing off another aircraft without thoughts [pause] anyway that’s a lesson.
PL: Um.
FC: And then the — yes, we were detached. They had, typically the unit had the main, main base somewhere and with up to six or eight mobile repair sections, MRS’s and for instance, the one that I was on, number four, we had a crane, a Coles crane, a typical RAF one of the day. We had three tonners, jeeps and [pause] and what else did we have? I don’t know. I forget now. But at one stage — when we moved to Toungoo, that’s it, that was a pre-war airfield, a grass one but it had a big hangar and that hangar the Japs used as a warehouse for rice ‘cause it was — rice was in a huge heap like they pile up road salt nowadays, don’t they. In this hangar, great pile of it, goodness knows how many tons were there, but when we were — I was at Toungoo when the war finished and it was ceasefire and before the ceasefire, I think for eleven in the morning, the noise that morning they were, all these squadrons giving the Japs a good hammering and the, beside the airfield these big guns were firing up into the hills where the Japanese were, but suddenly you were, I don’t know, over awed by the silence because you’d never had, even the little chirpy insects seemed to be stopped. And then you realise the war is over, except the Japs were — they were waiting out Japs for a year after, they kept the West Africans back to, to flush out these Japanese. So, the — luckily the unit had, number three, had followed the, they were at Imphal, on the Imphal Plain with, which has got about eight airfields. The one there was Tollihull[?]. American built, because the American equipment made the road into China across those mountains.
PL: Um.
FC: So, when they were given the length of the runway as, whatever it was, five thousand feet or something, no, five thousand feet, that can’t be right, they must mean yards. Whatever it was it, it was the hugest longest runway but marvellous really because if you had an aircraft come to grief on it there’s plenty more of it.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: Whereas on a shortish run you’d have to clear the wreck off to make room.
PL: Um, um.
FC: For the newcomers.
PL: So, after the end of the war, what was your experience between the war ending and coming back? I mean were you involved with the decommission of aircraft or — ?
FC: Well in Burma we were — my unit was, was chosen to be part of the British Commonwealth occupation force to occupy demilitarising the Japanese.
PL: Right.
FC: So, our unit was chosen, being the top one with experience, but we, we, we will go there, we backed up the three Spitfire squadrons. There was a number four Indian squadron and number four and, no number eleven and seventeen squadrons, well, they operate the top aircraft. Now they have had an almost uninterrupted history from world war one. I mean they stand them down sometimes when they have got to get a new aircraft and when they stand up again the unit with the new aircraft. That’s the way they work. But that was a marvellous unit.
PL: So, you stayed on for a while?
FC: Well we were — yes, you could, you could opt out of going to Japan so in fact we were volunteers and there were two thousand RAF volunteers to go there with us, my unit as support and the Spitfires were rounded up from where ever the war left them and put on an aircraft carrier because we were going off in December forty-five but the, they loaded up this carrier with it, all these aircraft and they were on that carrier for six months. We couldn’t get the shipping we couldn’t get the three ships. We needed three ships with all the squadrons and equipment and stuff of ours.
PL: Um.
FC: Well the small ships of the day, so when we did — while we were there in Burma a hugest hole in the world that I have ever seen was made by the Indian engineers to dump all the aircraft in. A huge trench, if you like, ramping down each, up and down each side. So, we [clears throat] had a like fun which you would think of as fun putting all the Japanese wrecks in there.
PL: Um.
FC: And then our Spitfire useless parts.
PL: Um.
FC: So that occupied our time and they were tidying up Burma in fact when we, and Meiktila is quite near Upping Lake for swimming and typically we had the Spitfire overload tank as an actual raft and then drop tanks and we had the blow up you know plate of all assault dinghies to swim from and that pal of mine who was, er, he was, he was a Geordie but he spent all his time in another part of the country until he came into the air force and he had a camera, as I had, so we took a few pictures between us but when it came to develop and print and the fixer, the, sadly some of the photos have faded away.
PL: Ummm.
FC: Actually, faded away. But I am digressing there. But, that’s right we went to, to Toungoo in the — we were there when, when the war finished. So that was a tidying up time.
PL: Um, um.
FC: Then the, the, the jeeps were modified with rail wheels ‘cause the, it’s the same railway, it’s an old, the old pictures, the old carts of the old days the ruts they make you’ve got to stay in the rut and this is what the blessed trains are. Brunel had the right idea, what’s it, eight foot broad not four foot —
PL: The Western, the Western Railway.
FC: Yes, not the four foot eight and a half inch silly things but then that’s, that’s what’s happened all round the world they kept to that silly measurement.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, we tidied up Burma into this big hole and then we went swimming and then the order came the Burmese want all the scrap metal they can get hold of. Especially aluminium.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, we had to winch and drag and hoick these things out of the trench.
PL: Out of the hole.
FC: Onto tank transporters [laughs] lash them down to take them, go onwards to the scrap yard.
PL: So, having filled the hole you then had to empty the hole [laughs]
FC: That’s why stories go back people have seen the aircraft in the hole they know it’s real.
PL: Um.
FC: As people left, they’d tell the tale
PL: Um, um.
FC: And this business of crates being buried, well [pause], crates weren’t sent to Burma they were sent to India, Bombay maybe and shipped across. The aircraft had to be erected, test flown and, and it, you didn’t have facilities to do that in Burma.
PL: When you said crates?
FC: Crates, big boxes.
PL: What does that mean?
FC: Well big boxes.
PL: Big boxes of parts and things?
FC: The whole thing is in a box.
PL: Right.
FC: For instance, in Japan we had I think six or was it four, Harvards that came all boxed up.
PL: Right.
FC: So —
PL: Like giant Meccano?
FC: Well, no, no, no they were complete aircraft.
PL: Complete aircraft?
FC: No, no well as complete as they could be. Their wings were off.
PL: Right, ok.
FC: And the engines and the tail.
PL: Right, but everything else came in the box?
FC: To get it in the crate, yes.
PL: Good gracious.
FC: Now this, when we were erecting and testing these, test flying these Harvards, they’d been in that packing box for about three years and then Jim, my good friend, the engine fitter he built up the — got the engine on and built, coupled it all up and did everything like that. He wanted to do the engine run, he was desperate to do an engine run you see.
PL: Um.
FC: Now the Aussies had Mustangs, new Mustangs. We had old Spitfires. The Kiwis had their Corsair a big American goal wing thing.
PL: Um.
FC: We had the Spitfires so there was a bit of leg pulling between us and but once we got this Harvard outside, Sergeant Robinson our Sergeant said to Jim I shall run this, you know, pulling rank on him [laughs]. Although Jim had done all the work. Anyway, as we started up, I think Jim was standing, standing just by the cockpit I think, just started up the engine, just started up and there was a, there was a bit of a bang from the cockpit and this instrument glass had blown out and hit him.
PL: [gasps]
FC: And what it was, two pipes had crossed you see. The suction pipe and the pressure pipe, this little pipe across there — the pump should have been, the instrument was driven by suction.
PL: So, was he all right?
FC: And then Sergeant Robinson didn’t want to do any more engine running he let Jim do it [laughs] so Jim’s doing all the others making lots — the Harvards makes a wicked noise the propellers make an awful noise.
PL: Um.
FC: As you know. But —
PL: So how did it all end for you Frank? How did you sort of — what was the beginning of the end and heading home?
FC: Well that was once we were in Japan you see, we —
PL: What was it like being in Japan?
FC: Well it was, thinking back it must have been what Japan was like about twenty years before
PL: Um
FC: ‘Cause the Japanese were, until 1945 when the Japanese surrendered in China, ten years that war was. I mean at one time they had all the South East area right up to the North side but when you think about forty million Chinese was killed, what sort of a cope, what do they all the greater cope prosperity sphere or something, fancy name, they made old friends wherever they went.
PL: Um.
FC: With all the murder, I don’t know, same as Germany when all these countries making no friends at all. What sort of empire were they aiming at? You see it’s the few people at the top having it all done for them. They make decisions but in Japan we had earthquakes we were on, I was on guard on the bomb dump which was an area where there were underground aircraft factories. They were stacked up with materials as well.
PL: Goodness me.
FC: But we had a bomb dump there and we were there on guard one night when in the deepest winter. Bad winter of 1947, which happened here, Europe, but also in Japan, roads completely thick with ice. We were sitting, two of us huddled in this little sentry box when we felt it move, ‘somebody out there, you go that way and I’ll go that way’ so we grabbed our rifles but there was nobody there, ‘now what was that all about?’, but it was the earthquake, just tremors just starting. Now just across the road from us there was a big lagoon but it was thick with ice, you see, because we were trying to break it by finding, throwing big rocks on it but when the earthquake started it made this ice crack up. So, we had our little bit of fun there with an earthquake and then once, once the three tonner came changing the guard taking us back. In the guard room a big demijohn full of rum, but you were only supposed, not to have any before you went on guard, just after you came out so I, my pint mug, I had a couple of fingers of it in there I suppose and of course when you’re on guard room you only take your boots off and get in bed, which doesn’t warm the bed up properly because you were [unclear] anyway I had this rum, finished it off and was then, I was in a dream that I was on a sailing ship because of all the creaking and movement, I was in a sailing ship in my dream and I opened one eye and the, the light was swinging and moving like this, I realised what it was so I — there was a Sikh chap with his turban on just sitting up in bed he said ‘I think it’s an earthquake’ and I don’t think he took his boots, and he slide the window open, they were sliding windows not fitting very well.
PL: Um, um.
FC: And jumped down onto the ice and the snow, well, frozen snow, and a lot of thundering of boots [noise of footsteps] coming down the stairs of the upstairs and it was dangerous too because it was, the lights fused, the lights went out and then there was some scaffolding along inside the building so it restricted the — but they all went out and I thought, I’ve had four, four hours guard out there so I’ll stay here.
PL: [laughs]
FC: But was dangerous really.
PL: Oh goodness.
FC: But the buildings are made, I realised when there was not a lot of damage by the American bombing naturally and not uninhabitable in fact we were in tents when we went to Japan. Now when we had left Burma the big transit camp down in Rangoon was so cold that they found a new area to put the tents up in. The Japanese prisoners put those up, like they would.
PL: Um.
FC: So I had my camp bed, everything else was on a vehicle for loading, so happily in the camp bed when was awoken by the tent having collapsed inward, almost collapsed down inward, because, well it was new tent that, which we’d never seen before, ours were awful old tents, this was a new one but you can imagine new rope and the tent pegs weren’t hammered in very much, very deep because the ground was so hard. But nobody had put tents there before it was in the area that flooded.
PL: Oh.
FC: So, we had a good two inches of water around our feet, so that was — I, when I wrote it up later, I thought, yeah, suppose the boot was on the other foot, think if the British were prisoners, the Japanese were going to their homeland and we put their tents up which had fallen down, it wouldn’t have been any laughing matter. We could laugh with the Japanese in the morning.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: When it came, but not if it had been a different tale wouldn’t it?
PL: Um.
FC: So, our welcome in Japan was to be in tents again. Cherry blossom time I think later on. They were coolie, it was a flying boat station as well as an airfield with a big crane so when the aircraft carriers eventually came with their cargo of Spitfires there was this massive dock side crane. And then they were, we were divided up into working parties. There was some on the aircraft carriers and then some on the lighters, the big barges that they brought in, I don’t know three or four at a time and a big hook of this crane dwarfed, you know, dwarfing everybody and they’re dangling, when I wrote it up being a bit poetic.
PL: Um.
FC: And, about their first landing in Japan from the crane. And we had no tractors, we had no tow bars, don’t know if we had steering arms. They had to be pushed to the airfield about two, two miles away.
PL: Gracious.
FC: One at a time. Now, Bas, my corporal, when there was — jumped down into the lighter that had come in the barge to a hooker, he said ‘we, we got more help here’ and I can’t remember them introducing me to him properly, might have been Peter, but anyway he was stripped off. He was a moon man, you know, one with, with, a pasty chap who’d not been out in the sunshine much, but very willing and we worked together. I was telling him all about the unit, telling him about all the wheezes we could get for a, if you flogged your cigarettes down in the town you had a, each cigarette would more or less buy you a bottle of beer in the canteen you know, things like this.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: Like you would [emphasis] tell a newcomer.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: So, when the, when the last Spitfire got moved off and went back into this little workshop by the hangar where, where tops, and when I reached up from my NAC jacket, when he brought it, he was the new group captain. [laughs]. Telling him all the fiddles we could get up to.
PL: [gasps]
FC: But I mean, he, he and he said something like, it was a marvellous introduction to my new station. When I didn’t realise what he meant new station until that’s what he was.
PL: Oh no.
FC: [laughs] But then —
PL: So, did you get into trouble?
FC: Oh no. No, no. I mean he’d have been flannelled. If, if an officer or any — he’d have had a lot of flannel wouldn’t he. Well, this was honest, he knew we wanted to get the aircraft, wanted to have the aircraft, our aircaft flying again.
PL: Um, um.
FC: Not what I did at the time. He had the right spirit of us.
PL: Um. So, when you had to take these Spitfires for two miles, was it a question of ropes round everything and people pulling, pushing?
FC: People pulling, people pushing.
PL: Literally, so it was manpower? Were the locals sort of drafted in to help?
FC: They had, they had Japanese labourers. I think there was a requirement for the Japanese to work for the occupation force for so many days a month at least. Because when you think about it, we were getting them the idea that it’s a democratic situation.
PL: Um.
FC: Not rule, what they did as well, all the lords, think of our lords of the manor in our country with all the hard workers, like serfs doing their stuff. All the ground divided up between all these [unclear] a similar thing in Japan. They deposed all these characters, I think they went off to Tokyo for a ticket. But I didn’t know at the time but Air Vice Marshall Bouchier who’s a, our overall commanding officer, officer commanding. He took over this manor house to live in, just a few miles up the river where the Kintai bridge is, it’s a five arch wooden bridge with granite piers its often in photographs and pictures. The Kintai bridge. Now before we went there, we were, we had a pocket book telling you the custom of the country and so on and all sorts of helpful things and we were not supposed to fraternise. No fraternisation, so like you would going down by the river and meeting these Japanese girls we were like sitting on a little beach where the, alongside the river. It was, must have been a nice feeling just be sitting with a girl when you’ve got your book trying to say things and then laughing, you imagine they’re laughing and then they’re trying to read English.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: To know what — but it was only bit of harmless fun really but a good job we didn’t get him outdoors up the river seeing us. So, then the jeep, you see, it’s — we all got around with jeeps at the time. Well think of this five arch bridge taking a jeep over it, well it weighed a couple of tons or something and it’s a wooden bridge meant for foot traffic
PL: Um.
FC: I mean its arched like that and you’ve got very shallow steps and then it curves and so, so it’s a bumpy thing for a vehicle so it was pointed out that the Japanese had been complaining that we should take more care of their old things. Beside it only led you to a park. The Japanese are a great one for parks. That’s to their credit. But Japanese we could, we could walk around at night without any fears around Hiroshima. We didn’t have any fears. We were, felt safer there than we did in parts of India.
PL: So, you, you were at Hiroshima?
FC: Well we were based on the Inland Sea where Hiroshima is based about sixty miles west but that was our nearest place to do some shopping in. And of course, we climbed up the —
PL: What was that like?
FC: Well it was — I was just going to say we climbed I think about an eight-storey building but all that was left was the concrete shell of it, you know, everything else was gone but when you got up there about, perhaps eight floors up and you looked across the city the roads had been cleared. Which showed the grid the patterns of the roads, but it wasn’t long before people went back and claimed their patch and put a little shed thing on it and the shops grew then. There was a dance hall and in fact I got tickets, dance tickets for the hostesses, I’ve still got them, so —
PL: Um.
FC: Whether I was hoping to go back and spend them I don’t know.
PL: [laughs] Goodness me. So, what, what, when would that have been? What year would that have been?
FC: That was 1946.
PL: Right.
FC: Yeah. We were due to go December forty-five, that was delayed right till April I think, forty-six when we landed.
PL: Um, um.
FC: But we needed three ships. Now before, while we were tidying up Burma because what was a good trade for the locals, if you wanted chicken or eggs.
PL: Um.
FC: Was some of your canteen things.
PL: Right, right.
FC: So the word went up that the Japanese were desperate for soap of all sorts.
PL: Right, okay.
FC: And you thought well yes, that’s it. That will be a good trade, so our test pilots one took the Harvard across over the mountains to Chittagong bought up all the soaps he could all sorts of soap and then the other test pilot took it to Cox’s Bazar and along that coast, and other places, getting all the soap he could. Thinking that would be good a trade for the impress money from the unit when we get there to build that up so this was loaded on our trucks. Boxed up and loaded on the trucks and though we had about fifty vehicles I think, they had a job to find drivers for them all. Anyway, everything was aboard and that and I travelled down as a passenger in a very comfortable situation laid on top of the bed rolls in the three tonner and I had, we each had a crate of American beer. Little bottles, little lager type things. And of course, in Burma they were always desperate for bottles because they make their, you know their wines and spirits, using, they need bottles. You had a, if you had a bottle to dispose of and you saw some Burmese there by the roadside you could drop the bottle out into the dust ‘cause there was either six inches of dust or six inches of mud.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So that was the way we travelled. When we, we didn’t go half way to Rangoon and stop and spend the night there because the water, the doctor with us said no that water’s all right that water’s all green. When it’s all green like that its healthy water its only growing good water so, but mostly we drunk it as tea. I think we seemed to get by during the day without a lot of water. We never had water bottles, well we had a little enamel one to hook on your webbing belt, but —
PL: So, what happened with the soap in Japan? Did you manage to sell all the soap?
FC: The mistake was after we loaded the vehicles into this particular ship there was no escort for this, for the truck with the spares and all the equipment no escort on the ship and the dacoits who were the bandits and thieves of Burma lifted all the soap. Now when we got to Japan, we found the boxes had been opened and we, we, we deliberately made a shortage of soap around that area and then the robbers had the soap to sell. So, they must have done, done a lot of, done themselves a lot of good.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: Because I said later whether CID or whatever they were, were trying to investigate the thieves showed a clean pair of heels [laughs] with all that soap.
PL: [laughs] I see.
FC: So, we had — this, oh this earthquake that I was saying about when I was on guard. I went back and that upset the runway. The aircraft in the hangars were damaged.
PL: Right.
FC: They were crashing together, moving together.
PL: Right. Oh no.
FC: So briefly I stayed in bed. But when they were repairing these buildings, I thought those joints, those joints are too loose because they were making the uprights a tenon going into it. A great big slot for it, just with a big peg.
PL: Um. That’s what it was for.
FC: Meant for it.
PL: Right, right.
FC: When you pointed it out to the Japanese. And then one morning [clears throat] oh, we found the Japanese labourers with two big shell cases about six inches, a couple of feet long, I think they were off the cruisers, sunken cruisers in our harbour possibly, they were polishing them. So that evening when we went to, to do our drinking decided what mischief we could do, we thought we’ll get those big, big shell cases, we’ll take those and they were a bit of a heavy weight to carry when you’re a bit tiddly but by the time we were approaching barrack block, ‘H’ shaped barrack block, we were upstairs on the first floor. We didn’t know what to do with them, so the New Zealanders were billeted right below us and we crept, we slowly came in, put one each side of their doorway and crept upstairs to bed, like you would and like you would, I think possibly a weekend, well Saturday, I suppose it was Saturday or Sunday, came down, came out to go to breakfast [clears throat] looked over the balcony and down below it was a static water pool that was meant for, you to supply water for a fire, the Japanese were making a little arrangement of the garden in it. But below they were gathered around these Kiwis, gathered around these, these chaps who were, who had got their Brasso and cleaning them up so in my little write up as we went to breakfast, I said to Jim ‘by now all our fingerprints have gone they have only got Kiwi prints’.
PL: [laughs] Oh dear.
FC: So, they got in trouble, like they would. But that was when we got one over on them you see.
PL: [laughs]
FC: So how do you explain it that we found them there?
PL: Um, um.
FC: We found them there sir.
PL: So, were they engineers as well?
FC: Oh yes.
PL: So, you were all engineers together?
FC: Yeah. Well different trades of course.
PL: Yes, yes, yes.
FC: But they had their own Corsair aircraft.
PL: Right, right. So what sort of things—
FC: Patrolling around the, we, we had a Southwest, South side of the island, main island, the main occupation force was the Americans of course. We were under General MacArthur then.
PL: So, were the Spitfires really just for sort of, you know, keeping an eye on things, reconnaissance and things?
FC: Well they were patrolling around.
PL: Right.
FC: They were watching out that nobody was travelling from Korea, to and fro to Korea, I think.
PL: Right.
FC: But it was to show a presence there.
PL: Um, um.
FC: And then four [pause] 4 Squadron put up, well about four aircraft once and then 11 Squadron put up, 11 Squadron, eleven aircraft. Then what about you 17 Squadron blokes, how many have you got serviceable? I got a panoramic view from the control tower at Miho, this is on the North Coast where you count, I don’t know, how many Spitfires, thirty or something. One is taking off, I took it when one was taking off another one had just fired its Coffman starter cartridge to start the engine at, with a great puff of white smoke so that’s obviously in action, two things in action, and then by the time I’d moved around here to overlap the pictures, there was a view of other Spits and a, one was in the, in the flying position, the armourers were aligning the, synchronising the guns, but the Japanese armourer helping them like you would have to do.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, but then Japanese were pushing, like you were saying pushing, pushing behind the trailing edge. Once there’s enough of you, it was a strong enough area to push. But when, a trick was with the Spitfire, the flaps were taken down by the pneumatic rams and then flaps up, all it did was to let the air out because there was a spring recovery, so when people are pushing like this and you are in the cockpit on the brakes, ready to put the brakes on, pneumatic brakes so it traps up and can trap a few thumbs.
PL: [gasps] Ouch.
FC: Well it was, despite this. On the carriers. The Spitfires on the carriers to get lift for taking off on that short thing, they would have the flaps partly down. Well, in no way you could do that, they were either up or down but what they did, they had blocks of wood, put blocks of wood, let the flaps came up by a spring onto a block of wood. They’d be in the best position to get lift for take off and once they were happily airborne, just flick the flap switch down and up again and they could put the wood before that. So, I’ve got this panoramic view, I thought I must —
PL: And that was taking off from aircraft carriers?
FC: No, no that was taken in a time when they did like in Malta.
PL: Right,
FC: They had to do this didn’t they?
PL: Um.
FC: You know, we had a, one time when the squadron was all worked up, back to working pitch at that time. The operation firepower or something like that. They were bombing up and loading up and doing their firing, live firing. So that was good for the pilots to get that, to get together like that. Do your turn round inspections and arm and rearm.
PL: Absolutely.
FC: So, it was this, these underground aircraft factories, they yielded off some metal and things and we made great — and I made a nice cabinet, wardrobe thing and the bottom shelf had a beer, crown beer bottle opener on with a cigarette tin underneath at the bottom, because it just took a crate a beer. I could lazily reach out, knock the top off you see.
PL: Um, um.
FC: And then they decided because we had to have somewhere to put our kit to make a long wardrobe, the full length of the barrack room out of aluminium and things and so of course you had to be about thoughtful and you had to be careful shutting the doors when people were asleep because of the noise.
PL: [laughs] So when did you get sent home?
FC: This was, demobilisation, you were given a number, a group number, so when group forty was ready, was ready to — that batch of people would be demobilised. When it got to fifty which was mine, we were on a long way up in Japan and [unclear] troop ships every Thursday or something and anyway [clears throat] and then ‘cause was when, oh Jim, that’s right. There was a Sir Geoffrey Depretes[?], an MP of the day came out to talk like a politician would have to do. At this big assembly of us [unclear] Kiwis and the Aussies and us and the Indians so afterwards any questions, so Jim next to me, when I’m, I’m, I’ve not got away in my group, my group, in my group I’m in so the top man boy Boucher, he said see me afterwards and I, I can guarantee you’re on, you’re on the next troop ship so we had a little farewell drink with Jim and we waited on and on and on and the troop ship never came until finally Jim went away on the same ship as we did.
PL: Oh my goodness. So, when was that?
FC: That was 1947.
PL: Gosh that’s a long-time getting home.
FC: So, from 1942 they hung onto me. Well if you think of it in April forty-seven the war over in Germany was over a couple of years nearly.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, we did a long stint. We didn’t do a four-year tour because prior to that they brought the four year down to three and a half and then three and then two and a half which was what I did.
PL: Um, um.
FC: So, tour expiry came as same as that. On the North West frontier when it was on the cooler times a lot of the old ones still had a dog collar RAF uniform, they didn’t want to part with it. They didn’t want a blessed collar and tie they wanted to show that they were old stages.
PL: Um.
FC: So, my tunic is upstairs. I’m letting out the seams. So, I’m looking forward to wearing it when the centenary of the RAF is in April coming.
PL: Fantastic.
FC: So, I came out you see of Japan back to Blackpool again because we were based, we were in Nissen huts at Kirkham in the tail end of that 1947 winter. When the first thing they did when we got to Kirkham there was a stove in the middle of the Nissen hut you kept burning hopefully. They took our greatcoats away.
PL: Oh.
FC: First thing they did.
PL: Why?
FC: So, we wouldn’t flog them.
PL: Oh, for goodness sake.
FC: But we wouldn’t have flogged them. We wouldn’t have, would we?
PL: You’d have worn them.
FC: Would happily take them back in the summer.
PL: [laughs]
FC: [laughs] That would be a different tale.
PL: Goodness me.
FC: So that was Blackpool again.
PL: Um.
FC: So, we had a, had a fair bit of time at Blackpool in between other things. Yes, sorry, then I had three months leave to take paid leave. Well, you didn’t have to take it. I had three months paid leave. So, I had no leave when I was aboard. I had the old rest camp in Japan at Kobe, above Kobe at the, on the hill was a nice maiko it means Japanese dancer, I think. Where we had Japanese food and when the rice came, I wanted some jam on the rice because I had never had rice at home unless it had -
PL: Oh, jam on, oh, wonderful.
FC: We were squatting on low, I’ve got pictures on the low tables of girls, all nicely made up and dressed. So that was Japan.
PL: So, what, so when you got home what was your career after the war? Just very briefly because you’ve been so generous with your time.
FC: Well I didn’t want to — I had so much time using, working repairing things and making and mending things. I didn’t want to go back to reporting because really quite honestly I mean for a fourteen-year-old boy to come as to be reporting, it would be better for a grammar school boy to start because he’s got, his mind is trained and he’s got a lot of advantages. So, I — there was a job, I took all my three months and hadn’t done anything about — I knew I didn’t want to go back but the RAF newspaper, I was in the RAF Association magazine, advertising for trade engine and airplane, air people for Boscombe Down and Farnborough. So, I came to Boscombe Down when they wanted — and they had just taken on, if you can imagine, like a queue in a way, they had just taken the last one on when I arrived, so I went on to Farnborough to the Royal Aircraft Establishment as it was, who needed sixty, or it needed quite a lot of staff. So that was where I —
PL: So that’s how you ended up here?
FC: Yes, that’s it, that’s what brought me to Farnborough and the experimental flying squadron with all the different aircraft from Lincolns and Yorks, the, the Hudsons. We had the, had the sea fliers the Spitfires. The naval flight was there so it was exciting times when they were launching and arresting. Quite exciting times. Because at the end of the hangar was a big assembly that was the sort fitted on a ship to, to catapult them off and the Spitfire with four big rockets attached like under its armpits. The engine fitter had to go up there and run the engine, all engines had to be run every morning, typical wartime thing, so Farnborough must’ve been a noisy place.
PL: Um.
FC: With the Halifax’s and everything.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: But anyway, the engine man hated having to go up there. It was perched in the middle of the sky it —
PL: Yes, yes.
FC: And then another time a bit later when the Korean war was on, I think, we had a Sea Fury on the, on our radio flight operating that one. That had to be put in the twenty-four-foot wind tunnel. They must have had trouble in Korea with the certain stores they were carrying or something, I don’t know what it was. Then my good friend who joined up the same day as me in Oxford, now, he was the engine man and he didn’t like being in the wind tunnel where they got a full bore and in with, sitting in with the engine going full bore.
PL: Um, um, um, um.
FC: But that was the typical thing they did.
PL: Um. So that must have been a very interesting life. How long, how long did you?
FC: Well I was there forty years.
PL: Wow. Gosh.
FC: Till 1988. And then of course it’s, it’s about a hundred years ago since I retired now because it’s, it will be thirty years next year won’t it? Three and four.
PL: It feels a little like we need to come back and speak to you again Frank about your, your experience testing, in Farnborough.
FC: Oh yeah.
PL: And your career doing that.
FC: Oh yeah. We did fly, did fly the Lincoln up to Valley, RAF Valley and they were, the Window, you know they drop Window these aircraft. Because various sorts, sizes of it. The worst one comes in packs which you daren’t disturb in a, in a dispenser thing on the wing tips of a, of a Canberra and if you drop one the pack all busted open because they were only about ten millimetres long, a little tiny bit of aluminium, ‘V’ shaped that way and then ‘V’ shaped that way.
PL: Was this for the —
FC: They spun.
PL: Right and this was to confuse the —
FC: This was to put something that looked like an aircraft.
PL: Oh right, right.
FC: And in fact, on ‘D’ Day, teams of RAF aircraft were flying in a pattern like this.
PL: Um.
FC: And dropping Window.
PL: Um, dropping them
FC: So that to their screens it looked like there was an armada of things coming. Well they knew how to confuse. But the one that went to, I was dumping this stuff out of the, the chute and there were ack-ack firing behind, firing at us behind. I thought, I hope they keep firing at that — and when we’d circled and landed at Valley the last bundles that must have been hooked up or something littered the airfield because I remember they were black and gold, or black and yellow, long. So, we were there for the weekend. We came on the Saturday, Sunday they had all the RAF out in a long line.
PL: Picking them up.
FC: [laughs] Doing the foot plod, picking them up. Nothing to do with me [laughs]
PL: Oh Frank, thank you so much that has been an absolutely fascinating interview.
FC: I’ve been linked up with FAST Farnborough Air Sciences Trust Museum to keep the heritage of Farnborough’s flying alive.
PL: Fantastic.
FC: We’ve built a replica of the first aircraft to fly. Fifty-two-foot span. Quite an impressive thing. So that draws a lot of people to see and learn about Cody, Sam Cody.
PL: Um, um, um.
FC: So, there’s another story in that.
PL: Um. Well I’d just like to end by saying a huge thank you on behalf of the Bomber Command Digital Archive because it’s been such a valuable, valuable interview. So, thank you very much indeed.
FC: Thank you. Well you’re welcome to my diaries as well.
PL: Thank you very much.
FC: Couple of years there, ok?
PL: I’ll pass that on.
FC: Thank you, yeah.
PL: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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AColensoF170522
Title
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Interview with Frank Colenso
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:36:39 audio recording
Creator
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Pam Locker
Date
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2017-05-22
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Colenso grew up in Cornwall and worked for a local newspaper at the outbreak of the war. He recalls the return of injured survivors from Dunkirk into Falmouth Bay. He joined the local defence volunteers following the bombing of Falmouth and describes training and weaponry within the Home Guard and civil defence precautions. He volunteered to serve with the RAF and trained as an fitter airframe and served with 83 Operational Training Unit. He discusses modifying Wellington aircraft, prior to being posted to Burma to serve with repair and salvage units. He speaks of the living conditions in Burma and of his work there which included repairing Spitfires and Hurricanes. After the war ended he remained in Burma as his unit was part of the Commonwealth occupation force prior to his demobilisation in 1946.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Burma
Great Britain
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Lancashire
England--Blackpool
Burma--Akyab (District)
Burma--Meiktila
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1943
1945
Contributor
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Carolyn Emery
83 OTU
bomb dump
bombing
civil defence
demobilisation
entertainment
fitter airframe
ground crew
ground personnel
home front
Home Guard
Hurricane
love and romance
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
runway
Spitfire
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/765/10766/PDakinF1701.2.jpg
da150b71850375ee4ba3691ca719be94
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/765/10766/ADakinF170918.2.mp3
308c81c30f60ff9f605a4bb4dd4d242e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Dakin, Freda
F Dakin
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Freda Dakin nee Palin (b. 1926). She lived in Manchester during the war and was evacuated.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dakin, F
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Cathie Hewitt. The interviewee is Freda Dakin. Also present is Rosita [Meladay]. We are at Mrs Dakin’s home at [Buzz] Washingborough and the date is the 18th of September 2017. Thank you for agreeing to be interviewed, Freda.
FD: You’re welcome.
CH: You could start by telling me something about your childhood, where you were about and about your parent’s please.
FD: Well, as you know my name’s Freda Dakin nee Freda Palin. P A L I N. I was one of five girls. I was the fourth of the family. Unfortunately, I’ve lost all my sisters. My Edna was the first one to go. She was only fifty four but she died. And then there was, Francis was my eldest and then Helen who was just twenty months older than me and then she died and I lost my baby sister last Christmas. So, I’m the only one remaining. I was born in Salford which was next door to Manchester and my father was a milkman and in those days they had a milk cart. They didn’t have any cover and he used to go out in all sorts of weather. It was hail, rain or snow. And he was a wonderful father. He wasn’t, how can I explain it? He wasn’t a [pause] he didn’t have the teaching he should have had. He could have been a clever man I think. But he was, as I say always out in all sorts of weather and he always kept a roof over our heads. We always had a good table, a good fire but he was a little bit strict and he never swore. Never swore. But he was strict. And I can remember when we used to be going out and he used to say, ‘You come back to this house, lady, as you went out.’ And I said to my eldest sister, ‘What does he mean?’ She said, ‘You come back a virgin.’ [laughs] And yes, he was very strict you know. We had, and we had to be in at 11 o’clock at night. No matter if we were in our teens, even if we were courting, ‘No lady would be out at this time of the night. No decent lady.’ But as I say he was a good man and I had a good mother. My mother was Irish. She was from Belfast and, but as I say I’ve we had our arguments as sisters usually do. I was evacuated to Accrington, Accrington Stanley and the couple there had no children. They wanted to adopt me and my mother said no. ‘No, I don’t care how many children I’ve got you’re not having her.’ I don’t know why because I was the mug of the family. But yes, I had a good childhood really. Mum and dad were pretty strict but when I think about it it was good. It was a good thing. In those days it was, you know. And as I say then, well during the war when the war started as I say I was evacuated just before the war started. I was evacuated in August and then the war started on September the 3rd as you know. I was evacuated with a friend of mine, Evelyn and I remember it was a Sunday, September the 3rd and Margaret and Norman that had taken us in and said, ‘Now, be very quiet. This is Chamberlain coming on the radio.’ We sat there you see. ‘Now, war has been declared.’ And Evelyn and I looked at each other and Margaret said, ‘Oh dear,’ she said, ‘That means we can’t keep you, dear.’ So, we said, ‘Why?’ She said, ‘I’m having a baby.’ Well, in those days when you were eleven year or twelve year old and you used to, we were grinning and nudging each other. ‘She’s having a baby. What’s that?’ So that’s when they found us this couple around the corner at Hyndburn Road, Accrington. Auntie Annie and Uncle Jack. They had no children. So I went to them and Evelyn went next door to the Barnes family and I had a wonderful life. As I say they wanted to adopt me. And I wouldn’t have minded really because I would have had everything [laughs] and then I just went back after the Christmas. My mum wanted me back. She said, ‘I can’t do without her.’ And as I said I went to Grecian Street School and there was quite a lot of Jewish girls there and quite a few from Austria. But they wouldn’t talk and they’ve been smuggled out you know just before the war. They knew it was coming. They were very nice. I’ve got photographs of them. They were very nice people as I say. And then I just started work. Well, you did start work at fourteen in those days. And then of course when the air raid came the site, the bombs were dropping before the sirens came because we said, ‘Oh my God what’s that?’ And then the sirens. So, how they got through the network I do not know. It was horrendous. Mum, ‘Freda, upstairs. Get the blankets and the cushions.’ And I got to the top of the stairs, coming down with the blankets and the cushions fortunately it saved me because a bomb dropped quite near us and it threw me down the stairs and with the blankets and that it saved me. And my dad too. We had what was called an Anderson shelter. They had the Anderson shelter which everybody thought was wonderful because you had a back garden you could do that. There was the Morrison shelter. Now, those were, if you had a back yard or a big dining room they put it in the dining room and you used it as a table and then at night you got under it. That was the Morrison one. And then there was those that had little houses. We had some little houses. They were two up two down and there was no room for either a Morrison shelter or an Anderson shelter so they built a little shelter at the bottom of each street. There might only be a good, a little dozen houses in this streets and then when the sirens went the neighbours all came out and went in these shelters. And of course then with the all clear they all went home. And there was one time and it was near St Andrew’s School and the all clear went and they all come out. They were just coming out and a bomb hit it and it was a flying bomb. They had the Doodlebugs but these were a flying bomb what they did, on parachutes and the planes went out so the all clear went. But these bombs were still dropping and it hit this shelter. They were all killed. It was very sad. Well, as I say we were lucky. We had this shelter and the Blitz as I say it threw me down the stairs which I’m lucky. I’m still lucky. I don’t know why I’ve reached ninety because I was the oddball from the family. I’ve told you before haven’t I? And my dad, bless him he’d made a bucket as a helmet [laughs] and he used to take us down to this shelter one at a time with a piece of metal over our heads from the kitchen down to the bottom of the garden. Make sure we were in the shelter. And then one at a time we went down and he, bless him and of course we all had to sit there and wait. Well, one of my sisters Edna, bless her she’d been to a friends for tea as they called it and of course she was coming home on the bus and the driver got out. Well, we were right near the race course, Manchester Race Course and he stopped there and he said, ‘Right. Not going any further. Can’t go any further. Everybody out. We’re going to the shelter.’ And Edna said, ‘Well, I’m not. I’m going home.’ And he tried to grab her. He said, ‘You’re not in this.’ And she ran for about a mile and of course the back entry and we were all sat there and my mum said, ‘Listen.’ And it was Edna shouting, ‘Dad. Dad.’ And she said, ‘That’s Edna.’ And he got the back gate open and managed to get her in and she collapsed and we thought she’d died. My mum, she said, ‘She’s gone, Jim.’ It’s very sad. She [unclear] she said, ‘Oh, thank God. She’s breathing.’ And she, she ran all the way. She said, the wardens kept saying, trying to grab her. The air raid wardens. Anyway, fortunately she lived. And the next day oh it was horrendous. And my mum I don’t know why but in those days well you couldn’t get toys the same you see and she had a doll and it was broken and she sent it to the Doll’s Hospital in Manchester Piccadilly. And she said, ‘If you want that doll for Christmas you’d better go.’ It was the next day after the air raid [laughs] and we went into Manchester, that was my younger sister and I went. And I can see it now. The rubble in Piccadilly. And it was red more Stretford way and I thought Mr and Mrs Bibby said, ‘Why has your mother sent you out in this?’ Everybody had come for a look and it was still glowing in the, in the distance, and the smoke and the rubble. We were picking our way out and [laughs] the Doll’s Hospital was closed. I couldn’t get it [laughs] I went home but as I say there was a lot worse off than us. A lot worse off. Of course, we had a cellar as well so that we were lucky that way. But me I’m a happy go lucky person really because I used to be out when the sirens were going and my dad used to say to me, ‘I’m going in.’ We called it the Monkey Run. It was the main street. The main road. And we were after the boys you see. And we said, ‘Nah. There’s nothing dropping yet. When they start to drop then we’ll go home.’ But as I say I can see that now I was nearly down the stairs. I remember it. The cushions and falling down the stairs. In a way we can laugh at it now but it was horrendous. But there again hearing the bombs dropping before the sirens were going because we didn’t know what hit us. We never got a window broken. Yeah. And the bombs were dropping right near us and not one of our windows in the house had broken. And I remember once [laughs] the sirens went. There again, we make, ‘Have you got this?’ or ‘Have you got that?’ You know. Of course, when you imagine five girls and a man and woman, you know, yes we’ve got this, got that. My dad taking us down one at a time and we got on the shelter. We said, ‘Oh, it’s quiet.’ My dad opened what little bit of a door we had. No. No. And then he heard the air raid wardens walking down the back yard and he said, me dad shouts, ‘Anything doing yet, mate?’ They says, ‘Where are you?’ He says, ‘We’re in the air raid shelter.’ He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The all clear went soon after.’ He said. It was over [laughs] We were there two hours. And another time we had this little case with all the policies and what have you and my sister came and her boyfriend was at the side of her and she says, ‘What are you doing down there, Jim?’ He said, ‘Well, what are you doing down there?’ She was sat on the case. So we had some good laughs, you know. And so there again my dad used to say, ‘I’ll go and get a drink.’ We’d say, ‘Well, be careful out there.’ A piece of metal over his head going up the back yard. The back garden. But as I say I can laugh at some things but when we realise how serious it was and I can still feel going down those stairs. I really can. But as I say I’m still here to tell the tale and I’m a lot luckier than a lot of people. A lot luckier. As I say now I’m the only one out of my sisters that’s living and I can tell a tale can’t I, Zita?
RM: Oh, you can tell a tale. Yeah.
FD: But as I say it’s different these days. I suppose nowadays they would just put one bomb on and everybody would go. It’s so different because as I say we could have our laughs and what, you know but there again, ‘You pinched my cushion.’ [laughs] Can you imagine? My dad with six girls. But he was so good with us. I can see him now. ‘Next one.’ [laughs] Going down the back garden, as I say. We were lucky being a family of seven that with our rations we could get a joint of meat at the weekends. You see if you were on your own you’d only get a chop. But if you had all these coupons you could get a roast. So, in a way being a big family helped. That you could get bigger rations and you could share out more. But as I say I remember Gladys, bless her and she was on her own and she said, ‘Oh, I am annoyed.’ We said, ‘Why? What’s the matter?’ Just been in to the Co-op and it was my ration day, she said, ‘For my piece of cheese and she weighed it on the, on the scales and she cut some off.’ She cut, it would be about a quarter of a pound or something, ‘And what she cut off she put in her mouth and eat it and —’ she said, ‘I could have made a sandwich of that.’ [laughs] I said, ‘Oh Gladys, what a shame.’ So it you know we had laughter but can you imagine anybody doing that? I mean if it had been me I’d have said, ‘Oh, go on love. It’s a bit over but it’s for you.’ But she said, I can see it now so as I say being a bigger family we were better off. We could get bigger pieces of this and bigger [pause] and my dad being a milkman he served a lot of Jews in Manchester. The big warehouses. And they used to help him out. And as I say and he used to go to this shop himself, ‘A bit extra for you today Jimmy.’ And he’d say, ‘Thanks very much.’ And as I say we did very well for rations. We never went without a good meal. I felt sorry for those that were on their own, bless them. You know, because they got no extra and as I say I’m a very lucky lady and I thank God that he was there for me and all those who went before me. But I don’t whether I could live through it now. I doubt it. But there again at my age who wants me? [laughs] I’ve got, I’m lucky that I’ve got very good friends and helpers. As I’ve said, I’ve told you before I’m a really lucky lady. I really am. And what health I’ve got for my age I do alright. It’s some memories I can laugh at because my friend and I go down the Monkey Run for the lads even though the bombs were dropping. I’d say, ‘We’d better go in now, hadn’t we?’ And I remember the sirens went and I said to my friend , Grace, ‘Are we going home?’ So, she said, ‘Is there any — ’ ‘No. They’ve not dropped them yet.’ So I went home and my mum as soon as she heard the sirens she was out first down the back garden and I thought, oh, I’ve not heard anything. And we used to have a little Kelly lamp in the kitchen. My dad went out to get some coal and he left the door open a bit and I’m like this with my coat shielding it. He said, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘You never know, that could be, that could be a German up there going over.’ ‘Oh, don’t be silly. The sirens would have gone.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘They went half an hour ago.’ I was on the Monkey Run you see. My mother [unclear] ‘Why didn’t you tell us?’ I said, ‘Well, I thought you’d all hear it.’ They were chattering that much that they didn’t hear the sirens. But they didn’t worry me. If I have to go I have to go which that was my attitude and I’m still here to tell the tale aren’t I? And I thank you very much for you coming.
CH: How old were you when the war started?
FD: Sorry?
CH: How old were you when the war started?
FD: I’ve got to think. Twelve.
CH: So you were still at school.
FD: Oh yes.
CH: So what would have been a typical day for you during the war?
FD: What would be what love?
CH: A typical day for you as a school child in the war. When you got up in the morning and go to school.
FD: Yes. Well, when I was evacuated their school they used to go in the mornings and our school would go in the afternoons. And the week after we’d go in the mornings and they’d go in the afternoons. And those, and then when we were at school we would either go to the museum. The teacher would take us to a museum and I remember —
[doorbell — recording paused]
CH: Ok. Freda, we’ll restart again.
FD: Right love. Well, as I say we used to go either to museum or churches and they went to the police station once and I always remember it was a Wednesday. And so I can always say I’ve been locked up because I was in a, I went in a, which the cells were different in those days and he said that’s where, so if we have to sleep in there we had to sleep in there and he locked the door. So, I can honestly say I’ve been locked up [laughs] And then I remember this sergeant and we used to have the gas masks and they were in cardboard boxes and we used to put a piece of string and carry it around your shoulder or you could buy cases for them. Leather cases or cotton cases. Make them posh. And there was this, he said, ‘Now then, something new’s come out. It’s a special powder to take finger prints.’ So, I always remember that’s when this powder came out. It was 1939. No. Yes, it was. 1939. And he said, ‘You see this?’ And it was a plain piece of cardboard and he put this stuff on and you could, you leant in to it. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘That’s your fingerprints.’ So, I said, ‘So if I pinch that you’d find me out?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ ‘And if I could pinch this?’ And it was a gas mask case but it was like in a crocodile skin. He said, ‘No. We can’t do that yet, love.’ He says, ‘It’s only got to be plain stuff where your fingerprints are. But — ’ he said, ‘We’re working on it.’ So, I know 1939 that’s when that powder came out for fingerprints. And it’s little things like that I remember. And as I say, I was in the church choir for Christmas as an angel [laughs] Nearest thing I’ll ever get to it I think, Zita.
RM: Yeah. I think it is.
FD: But Auntie Annie and Uncle Jack were fantastic with me. As I say they wanted to adopt me because they had no children and then Auntie Annie died and then Uncle Jack died and he left me a little bit of money in his will. So I bought, with part of it I bought a ring and when I look at it I think of them and I’ve got a little photograph of them. And they treated me, oh it was fantastic. Of course, being in, during, before the war we all used cups and saucers, you know. But when I went to Auntie Annie and Uncle Jack’s it was a mug. And the first time she gave me a mug I said, ‘Where’s the saucer?’ [laughs] She said, ‘You don’t have saucers. Only on a Sunday.’ So, yeah she was, oh they did, they treated me rotten and on Friday we used to go to the market. ‘What do you fancy for your tea, lass?’ It was always lass, you see and so she said, ‘Do you like this?’ ‘Do you like that?’ I said, ‘Oh, I like those prawns.’ And she used to make her own ham, her own balm cakes. Warm balm cakes and they was for prawns for me. Oh, it was lovely as I say. And an outdoor toilet. No. No. As I say with a piece of wood with a hole in it and oh God I used to [pause] and I dropped the torch down it once. I said, ‘Uncle Jack. I’ve dropped the torch down.’ [laughs] ‘Eeh lass. What are we going to do with you?’ And Auntie Annie taught me how to darn properly because we used to have to wear long black stockings for the school, you see. Your uniform. And I had a hole and I didn’t bother. I just more or less [laughs]. I was getting my coat on and he said, ‘Ay lass, you’ve got a lump on your leg. What is it? Hey, Annie come and have a look at this. The lass has got a lump on her leg.’ And I said, ‘It’s not. It’s my darn.’ He said, ‘Your what?’ I said, ‘I darned it.’ He said, ‘Oh Annie, show her how to darn.’ And from there I used to weave. She taught me how to weave. Yeah. So, as I say I fell in lucky in a way. Because the couple we had at first, they put us in these houses, because she was having this baby you see. But [unclear] having a baby. I never found out what she had anyway. And he, Norman worked for her father and he was a chauffeur and so on Sundays he could take us out and we used to go out for a drive. Before we found that she had a baby.
RM: So, were you not frightened, Freda?
FD: Sorry?
RM: Were you not frightened?
FD: Me? No.
RM: At that age?
FD: No.
RM: When you were going to school and things.
FD: Nothing would frighten me now, Zita
RM: I know you don’t get frightened about many things but that as a child you weren’t.
FD: No. No.
RM: You and your friends
FD: No. No. It never frightened me. Because as I say you used to walk on the Monkey Run and they’d say, ‘The sirens have gone.’ ‘Oh well, if they drop a bomb we’ll go in.’
RM: And they say children don’t feel fear don’t they as much?
FD: Well, no. I never felt it, you know. Most likely would have done had I, if I’d been out in the Blitz.
RM: Yeah.
FD: But I wasn’t. I was inside you see. But as I say the bombs were dropping before the air raid sirens had finished.
RM: But you saw a lot of the damage that had been done.
FD: Oh yes.
RM: So did that not frighten you?
FD: No.
RM: Once you realised what these bombs could do?
FD: No.
RM: No.
FD: No. No, I’m just in, I don’t know. If I went tomorrow it’s God’s will. I go to church, you see. But no. I think what has to be has to be and like I had four sisters. Edna, bless her the one that we thought she’d, she was only fifty four when she died and a bigger Christian you couldn’t wish to meet. But somebody said, ‘Well, God’s taken her to spend her spirit down to somebody else.’ No, it doesn’t. No. When I saw all the smoke and the redness and I thought it was a shock in a way.
RM: More of a shock than anything.
FD: Yes. It’s horrible. I mean you could, as I say it was still smouldering.
RM: Yeah.
FD: When I was walking in the Deansgate, in Piccadilly. And of course I was being more nosy than anything.
RM: Curiosity more than anything.
FD: It was. I was thinking what had happened. It wasn’t as though I was thinking oh that’s [unclear] You see, you know me. Take it or leave it. But no I can see it now and Mr and Mrs Bibby and I can, and as I say stood in Piccadilly and I thought oh God and the fires are still burning. So it was horrendous really because it was not just a couple of bombs. It was bomb after bomb after bomb. And what it was, where we lived we lived by the River Irwell and it was the Broughton Foundry. It was where they made the ammunitions and my sister worked there. Edna. Instead of going in the Forces she was called up, see. Francis had a baby. So I think they were after that. Broughton Copper Works it was called and that’s where the munitions, some of the munitions were being made. Ammunitions. And the river, they used to always go for a river because that’s where they knew where they were making them and that’s where they were trying to drop them. They were getting them in Manchester itself you see. And the night before the Blitz Bernard my husband where he worked had the Christmas dinner at Victoria Hotel on the corner and that went completely. Fortunately, it was the night before. Had they been there because it started at 6 o’clock at night they would have been all killed.
CH: It was just before Christmas.
FD: Yes.
CH: Yeah.
FD: Yes. It was just before Christmas. And by the way I’ve got a book. I don’t know if you’d like it or not it’s on the Blitz.
CH: We’ll just pause for a moment there.
[recording paused]
CH: Ok. Thank you, Freda.
FD: I was happy go lucky. Nothing worried me. And my mum said, ‘You can’t go out in this. What if the sirens go?’ I said, ‘Well, if they go they go don’t they?’ You see, and she, ‘Don’t be so cheeky.’ Oh, I could give cheek like that you see. And I said, ‘Alright. I’ll come in when the sirens go.’ But then of course I tell lies. I’d say, ‘Well, I didn’t hear them go.’ And Grace my friend she was the same. She said, ‘What are we going home for?’ She says. ‘To sit with them?’ You see. No. I was such a, it wasn’t, nothing worries me now because what has to be has to be and I thought, I said, ‘Well, if we get some we’ll go in if the bomb drops.’ And that’s us you see. We went out every night and occasionally there was a couple of lads worked and they were supposed to be looking after their so called Works and they’d say, ‘Go on. We’ve got a shelter.’ But nothing bad happened believe you me. We used to just go. We used to have a laugh and a joke but in those days there was nothing like that with sex or anything. And then we used to say, mum would say, ‘Where have you been sheltering?’ I’d say, ‘Well, we went in the shop doorway.’ And as I say we told lies. But we didn’t, we were in this shelter with the lads. But do you blame me? I mean to me I might have only had a couple of days left. I thought I might as well have a bit of fun while life lasts.
RM: Was there no cinemas or anywhere to go for a drink or —
FD: Oh, yes.
RM: Anything like that Freda?
FD: You could have. There were cinemas going but in those days you see they closed at a certain time. There was no evening. Nothing like today.
RM: No evening matinees or anything.
FD: Oh ,yeah. Yeah. But I mean money was tight as well.
RM: Yeah. Yeah.
FD: I mean, I know it was only a couple of pence to go in or fourpence, the old fourpence but if you’ve spends when I was working. When I started work I think my wages was eight shillings or nine shillings a week and my mam, and then my mother gave me my tram fare out of it and my spends was a shilling. Five pence a week. And that I had to, well my mum kept, as you called kept me. She looked after you until you were twenty one and when I was twenty one I gave her just so much for keeping me so the rest was mine. So I used to get about a shilling. Two and six. Twelve and a half pence. And that was my spends for a week. And I had to buy different things with all make up and stuff but she kept me in dresses and clothes.
CH: How old were you when you started work?
FD: Fourteen.
CH: Could you tell me something about that?
FD: About work? Well, I worked for a place called John Noble’s which was one of these clubs. You know, the what do you call them. Like —
RM: Like a catalogue type.
FD: Catalogue. And it was horrendous. I used to, I was just the one who had to go to each department with the orders and it used to be every half hour I was up and down the stairs and the flights of stairs. They wanted one department then I’d come back. They’d say, ‘Here’s another one.’ And I’d go up and down the stairs. It was about eight shillings a week I got. Mum paid for my bus fare err tram fares. A shilling a week. Five pence a week was my spends. So then when I finished there I didn’t like that because it was two tram cars. And I went to work at Abel Heywood’s, and I got I think it was a bit more. I got about ten shillings a week on that and I stayed there for about four or five years. I disobeyed the rules because you weren’t supposed to go on holidays without permission and one girl was going off on holidays with her parents so I thought well if she can go so can I. So I took a week off work and got the sack.
RM: So did the, did the war not affect your job, Freda? Did you have to come home during the day or —
FD: No. No. Oh no. I had to go work.
RM: The trams never stopped or anything like that.
FD: No. But so you —
RM: You could always get to work.
FD: Well, we were so close to Manchester we could walk in to —
RM: You were walking distance.
FD: Yes. But, no and then of course I got the sack from that. And then I got to work with the electrical place. It was quite nice but I didn’t like that. But I worked at Abel Heywood’s for quite a while which I liked. It was newspapers and stuff. I liked that very much and I had nice friends there but as I say there was Hilda. Hilda [Beavis] she, she was a thief and a liar because I left. They gave me, they used to come around, it was an old fashioned firm. They used to come around with your wages in a little tin on a tray and you’d say, ‘That’s mine.’ Freda Palin you see. Take your spends out. Your wages out. Look at it. ‘That’s right.’ Put your tin back again. They didn’t give you a wage packet. And I remember leaving, it was three pounds something in the, in my drawer because I used to be a typist, and I got home. Mum said, ‘Where’s my — ’, ‘Oh, I’ve left it at work.’ So my friend and I were going out. The dance clubs were still open, you know. If the sirens went you had to go.
RM: You met quite a few Forces men though didn’t you at the dances? You told me.
FD: You what, darling?
RM: You met quite a few of the Forces men at the dances you told me.
FD: Oh, I did. Yes. I met Ron. Yes. We used to go to the YWCA. It was, there was the YMCA men only. YWCA ladies only. But when the war was on you could go in either. Both of them. And of course we volunteered to help on the counters to serve tea and that so I met quite a lot of Forces. Ron Crawford, Crawford Biscuits, he was one of the heirs for that. Yes. My dad when we used to go out we had to clean. I had to clean the floor before I went out. We’d take it in turns and my dad said, ‘Don’t forget the corners,’ because we had no fitted carpets in those days. And I said, ‘I’ve got a date at 8 o’clock.’ He said, ‘If he thinks anything of you he’ll wait for you won’t he?’ And of course when I got there the girls would say, ‘Ron’s getting upset,’ they said. And I’d say, ‘My dad made me clean the floor.’ And they says, ‘Oh, he was worried over you.’ I said, anyway he went. I wrote to him for a while and that was it. The one I really loved was, he was called Robert. Oh, he was lovely. Robert [Souter] Swinton. So, I met quite a few men there and I used to wait on the counter and serve. So, in a way I had a happy life.
RM: Is it like they show on the television then Freda? In the films that you see with the Forces people and and you ladies all dancing and having a good time?
FD: Oh yeah.
RM: It was just very much like that.
FD: Yes. Yeah. And I went out with an American as well. Oh, my friend Grace she was a daredevil really. Like me. And two Americans came up to us and they said, ‘Will you come? Would you like to join us? We’re going up for a meal.’ So, we said, ‘No, thank you.’ So they said, ‘We’re harmless. Honestly.’ They said, ‘We booked this café for the Americans.’ He said, ‘We provided the food but we can’t go in unless we have a lady friend with us.’ And it was next to the Odeon Theatre. I can see it now. And we looked and said ok. And they said, ‘You’ll definitely be safe with us.’ So we went in and of course in those days they had ham and everything you could imagine. A piece of ham and tinned fruit. Oh, it was fantastic. We were looking at these cakes and they did because I remember getting to the door and they said such a squadron or something. So, she said, ‘Have you got partners?’ And they said, ‘Yes,’ and we had to show our faces. They said, ‘Well, you can come in.’ So we had, oh it was fantastic. When I got home, when I was telling my mum so I said , ‘And they had peaches.’ She said, ‘Where had they get those from?’ I said, ‘They’re out of a tin. What do you think?’ She said, ‘Don’t be so cheeky.’ Yeah, so I, oh I’ve met all sorts and everybody. To me I had a wonderful time. I wasn’t frightened. I enjoyed. Grace, my friend though she used to go a bit too far and I said, ‘No. No. That’s, that’s too much for me.’ She was too much of a daredevil really but and of course my dad. I don’t know whether I said to you, ‘You go out of this house the same way as you come in. A virgin.’ Oh, I daren’t. I daren’t. But yes. I I think about it my first work as I say John Nobles. I think they’ve gone now though. Two tram cars. Then Abel Heywood’s which I liked very much. And then there was this electrical place. And then I went to [unclear] which I liked that very much. It was one of these big typings, typings out and they had these whacking big machines. But I was there for about nine years. No. It wasn’t to be nine years. No. I was there the longest anyway because I got married from there and then I had Robert. But in those days they wouldn’t take you back after you’d had a baby. It’s not like now they’ll keep your job open for so long you see but I didn’t mind. I had my son. And, and then we lived with my mum and dad for a couple of years. Then we got a rented house. When, I think about it an old man had it, this house and he used to live and eat and sleep in one room and my sister when she was looking at it, she said, ‘Fancy having a black ceiling.’ I said, ‘That’s soot.’ [laughs] The gas man [unclear] out to here when he walked in. We spent about three hundred pound doing it up and she said, ‘You stupid fool.’ I said, ‘Why?’ It’s around the corner room from my mum’s.’ Rented. She said, ‘Yes, but you could have put that down as a deposit for a brand new house.’ Which you could have done in those days because I mean the house I bought in Stockport wasn’t quite two thousand. And I mean, that would have helped us through but I never bothered but, and then had my son there and then we moved to Stockport.
CH: If I could just go back to the war. What were you doing for celebrations on VE day?
FD: Not a lot really. No. Was it Francis had the television? No. No. I didn’t do a lot really. You went in to Manchester but they were all kissing and cuddling. I couldn’t be doing with that. No. No. I didn’t. I can’t remember much about that. It was just a quiet day for me.
RM: It sounds like a daft questions Freda but what happened to all the gas masks? Did you have to hand them all in? All the gas masks.
FD: I think we did. I think we did. Yeah.
RM: You had to hand them all in.
FD: We all had a special box for them.
RM: And the you see it on the television. With all these boxes and everybody had to carry them everywhere.
FD: Oh, they did.
RM: And all this but and such like as these programmes on the telly. The Antiques Roadshow and such like and they all get you know this is a gas mask from so and so but what happened to all the stuff? They couldn’t hand it all in.
FD: Must have done. Must have done because we didn’t have any left. We didn’t have.
RM: And you carried it to work and everywhere.
FD: Oh yeah. You had to carry them to work. Oh yeah. They were in a cardboard box with a piece of string on.
RM: Yeah. I’ve seen them but, yeah.
FD: And then you could buy these lovely covers.
RM: Did you ever have to use yours?
FD: No.
RM: No.
FD: No.
RM: No.
FD: No. Never had to use it [unclear] but there again by the time you got them out of the box and that you could have been gassed.
RM: Yeah. Yeah.
FD: If they’d have dropped the gas bombs.
RM: Yeah.
FD: But I don’t, I can’t remember any, anything where they were dropped. I don’t think they dropped —
RM: No.
FD: Much in England.
RM: Well, they show you sometimes where people have them on. You see it. But I just wondered if you’d ever had to use it.
FD: I don’t think they wanted to kill. It was more the munitions they were going after because of this Broughton Copper Works that were making them and as I say it was nearly all the rivers they were going for. They knew there was factories down by the river. And there was other places as well you see. So we were right near the River Irwell and as I say they could have[pause] and that’s where we, the windows did rattle. I’m not saying that. But why we never got one window broken. Some did. But I don’t know what it was but it was and we used to just sit there. And my dad, one at a time down in the [pause] Edna, how she got through it I don’t know at all because she worked at the Broughton Copper Works as well. You see with Francis with being married because they didn’t take them into the Forces or anything then because I said, of course in a way I was dying to be eighteen to go in the forces. I said, ‘Oh, I’m going in the forces when I’m, when I’m eighteen,’ I said, ‘I’ll go in the Air Force.’ My cousin said, ‘No. You’re not.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, ‘You know if you go in the Forces you’re there just for the officer’s ground sheet.’ I says, ‘No.’ He says, ‘You are,’ he says, ‘You’re there for the officer’s ground sheet, you youngsters.’ That’s what he said. So I never went but then again it was over and done with by the time I was —
RM: My [unclear] never said that.
FD: Oh, well maybe she was [laughs] My friend. She was in the Forces.
RM: She was Scottish. She was in the WAAF wasn’t she?
FD: And she was in the WAAF and she met, that’s where she met Jack. Her husband and of course I said to her once. She said, ‘No.’ But there again there were a lot going in. I don’t know. So, my mum said, ‘She’s not going in. She’s not going in.’ But I wanted to go in actually. I think I’d have enjoyed it better. I don’t know. But then I became very plump. I was thirteen stone at one time wasn’t I? You saw my plump. No, but I’ve lost a lot of weight. But anyway I can’t say it was horrible because I enjoyed it with my friend, you know. As I say, on the Monkey Run we used to have fun.
RM: I suppose your age. I suppose you found it exciting in a way.
FD: Well, I did because my parents were a little bit strict you see. And as I say my dad and mum were strict and to be out on my own and I felt, oh they won’t come out looking for me. Not in this. So, I was obviously a dare devil. And my friend especially, she was, oh and it was during the war they had the tram cars running and we’d been in the YWCA and we’d met, well this one met my friend she said, ‘I’m going to the railway station with him.’ They were, they were based at Heaton Park all the RAF men, and they all had little white flashes on their caps. You knew they were aircrew. So, she said, ‘I’m going. His train’s at ten to eleven.’ She said, ‘Wait on the bridge for me,’ she said, ‘I’ll make sure he’s on that train.’ And our tram car was at 11 o’clock. I’m stood there and this man sidles up to me. ‘How about it, darling?’ So, I said, ‘Clear off.’ And he’s sidling up and he says, ‘Go on, darling. It won’t take long.’ And I didn’t know, as true as I’m sat here I didn’t know what he was meaning. And he says, ‘I’ll pay you more tonight then your boss does in a week.’ And I thought what the hell does he mean? What can I do? I hadn’t the foggiest idea and he kept on and when my friend came you see the tram came. I said, ‘Don’t leave me on my one again,’ I said, he was this [pause] ‘Surely you know what he wanted don’t you?’ I said, ‘No. What did he want?’ And she told me. I went berserk. ‘Don’t leave me again.’ He must have thought I was a prostitute [laughs] I got the shock of my life when I found out what he wanted.
RM: Was he an Air Force man? Was he in —
FD: No. He was just an ordinary civvy.
RM: Oh, he weren’t a Forces man.
FD: You see Grace had gone to see her friend, her boyfriend off at the airport err at the railway station and I’m stood there just queuing up with all the others and he’s sidling up to me and pushing my shoulder. And I was, ‘Leave me alone. Leave me alone.’ I didn’t know. I didn’t know what prostitutes were. And she was a daredevil because there was Lewis’s Arcade and the prostitutes used to wait in there and they all had their certain spot you see and going through the Arcade with Grace she said, ‘Oh aye, she’s got one.’ I said, ‘What?’ She said, ‘Look. A fella has just picked her up. I’m going to follow them.’ I said, ‘You’re not.’ She said, ‘I did. I went and followed them down this back entry,’ she said, ‘It wasn’t very nice.’[laughs] I said, ‘What are you talking about?’ She was very broad. She did things I would never dream of. No. No. And I said, ‘Oh Grace.’ She said, ‘Well,’ she said, ‘It’s their own fault.’ And no one, Lewis’s Arcade as I say was open and we went, Bernard went through there once and there was these prostitutes and he was meeting me at the Palace Theatre and he said, ‘Oh, I’ve just been offered a nice job.’ I said, ‘What?’ he said this prostitute come and with the gloves under his chin, ‘Hello sweetheart. I’ll make you very comfortable for tonight.’ He said, ‘Oh, I’ve got a wife waiting for me. She can do that.’ I said, ‘You cheeky monkey.’
CH: How did you meet your husband?
FD: Sorry?
CH: How did you meet your husband?
FD: Through my brother in law. My eldest sister. Jim. They worked there. Jim and Bernard worked together and my brother in law came home, he said, ‘Bernard’s been asking about you.’ I said, ‘Who’s Bernard?’ He said, ‘ [unclear] So I said, ‘I don’t know Bernard.’ And a couple of times, ‘Bernard’s been asking about you.’ I said, ‘I don’t know Bernard.’ And he said, anyway they had a very old fashioned workplace. It was an optical place and you had to go up these creaking stairs, just like Dickens. And a little window. You had to knock on it and it was slid away. And I had to go and give a message to my brother in law and I knocked on this window and he said, ‘Yes?’ I said, ‘Can I speak to Mr Bateson, please.’ And when he’d gone Jim says, ‘That’s Bernard.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I didn’t know. I never met him before.’ He said, ‘You have.’ ‘I haven’t actually.’ So they invited me to a church dance. We had a church dance, and he was a very quiet man, wasn’t he?
RM: He really was. Yeah.
FD: Very quiet. He was daft as a brush. He was useless, hopeless and helpless. He couldn’t knock a nail in straight and he couldn’t boil an egg. It’s true. Honestly, he couldn’t as I say, but he was a very good husband. He thought the world of me didn’t he?
RM: Yeah.
FD: He did. He just worshipped me. And I remember when we were living with mum and dad and we went, were going to church it was only around the corner and he said, ‘I don’t feel so —’ [pause] I said, ‘oh, don’t bother coming, sweetie.’ I said, ‘I’ve left you a couple of eggs there.’ When I come home he said, ‘You didn’t tell me how to cook them.’ [laughs] I said, ‘You stupid fella. I said, ‘I cooked them before you came down.’ He was. He was useless but as I say a very good husband. He would never, he would never have a chequebook because he said it’s too easy and it had to be paid with cash every time. He said, ‘If you have a chequebook it’s too easy, Freda.’ So we were never in debt. We always had good food on the table. A roof over our heads. We used to have little holidays, big holidays when Robert left home. So, and then he was, he was eighty four when he died. He had a very bad heart. I remember him at the table when there was just the two of us he says, ‘Ooh, what have you put in that dinner?’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘Indigestion.’ I said, ‘My cooking’s not that bad. You’ve had it for how many years?’ And, and then when we were, of course I used to do all the decorating and he was sat on the stairs and he said, ‘Oh. Indigestion.’ And then I was at work [laughs] he never knew how to say words because I was, I used to work in a Post Office and they said, Bernard. And he said, ‘They’re keeping me in, love.’ I said, ‘Why? Where are you? At the police station?’ He said, ‘No. At the hospital.’ he said, ‘I’ve had another.’ He said, ‘I’ve had three heart attacks.’ And he had about twelve altogether. He had a pacemaker and that. He died. It’s twelve years this year.
CH: Did you court for very long when you first got together?
FD: Yes. Well, we, I got, we got engaged when I was twenty one and I got married at twenty three and I had Robert when I was twenty eight. I was married five years before I had Robert. Unfortunately, my son took his own life.
CH: I’m sorry.
FD: But as I say we got through. And I’ve got very good friends. I’m very fortunate with that. I’ve got a lot of friends haven’t I? This is, this is my helper. She’s cheeky. Very very cheeky. Could knock her head off sometimes.
RM: Just look, this lady’s taping you so be careful.
FD: Oh, sorry [laughs] Well, it’s the truth. She wanted the truth. She’s getting it. I mean you’ve turned up for me today haven’t you sweetheart.
RM: Of course I have.
[recording paused]
FD: No. There was none dropped right outside in the church or anything. It was more the vibrations we got because we could hear them rattling. And there was a little bit in the middle of Salford and Manchester which [unclear] used to go up around over the bridge into Manchester. It was the same. You could walk it. So it was nearly all there that got it because they were after this, the Broughton Copper Works. So, as I say we just got the rattling of it and the vibrations. We’d say, ‘God, that was a near one wasn’t it? That was a miss.’ But no. And as I say with being in that shelter they were the safest of the lot. The Anderson shelter, Morrison shelter and then the little shelters outside. It was that, it was to me actually when they say little shelter it was I don’t know why, I can’t understand it because they were only like a little brick shelter. They weren’t dug into the ground. They were just like a little house where a lot of people could go. So you might as well have stayed in your own house. I mean that was at least two floors high. I mean, so unfortunately this flying bomb, whatever it was called dropped on to the shelter itself that wiped them all out. But I know people say you were lucky with the Anderson. Some had put them in themselves and did it themselves they got flooded out with water. We were lucky, the corporation came and did mine. Ours. Because my dad couldn’t do it. So they did it and it was the way it was faced. It was a blessing really. I can see it now but it started to smell musty and we used to put carpets down and oh God that smelled.
RM: It must have been very cold and dark.
FD: Well, when there’s a few of you, Zita there’s, you’re all, when you’re all breathing it’s not too bad.
RM: Not too cold.
FD: But if there’s only two of you.
RM: It would be cold.
FD: You know. But we used to take travelling rugs with us and cushions. We never, we didn’t leave those in the shelter. We took those out with us. But the bit of carpet, we were always changing that. And newspapers used to be in as well. They used to, you’d wrap those. It was amazing how you could keep warm. But my dad bless him he used to go up and say, ‘I’ll go and get a drink.’ ‘Be careful dad. Do be careful.’ You know. ‘Oh dad, don’t go. Don’t go.’ But yes he used to go and make us drinks. And did I tell you when my mum was petrified. She was, bless her. And as I say air raid sirens had gone and I came in and they were all there. I thought, oh my God she’s braving it. And she was chatting away to them all and the little Kelly lamp I was trying to shield. ‘Oh, the sirens would have gone,’ they said, ‘If there was anything,’ because a plane was going over and I’m shielding this little Kelly lamp and I said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘The sirens went half an hour ago.’ ‘Oh, why didn’t you tell us,’ they said. They were gabbing that much they couldn’t hear them.
RM: Would you have during, during the day or during the night?
FD: Oh, the evenings.
RM: Evening.
FD: It was in the evenings when it started going and that’s what we couldn’t understand about the Blitz because the bombs had dropped before the siren had finished so they must have got through somehow. I don’t know how they did it.
RM: Did you see the planes? Did you ever see them?
FD: Oh no. You could hear them.
RM: You could hear them but you couldn’t actually see them.
FD: Because to us the German planes they had a beat in them [humming] Ours seemed to [humming] ours seemed to be a smoother hum or drum than the Americans err the Germans. They seemed to have a bit of a pause [humming] We’d say, ‘That’s a German.’ The next thing we knew a bomb had gone off. So how they got through, those bombs had come down after they’d gone I don’t know but I know they said they put them on, there was a Doodlebug and these other bugs they put a little parachute on them. Well, little, it must have been a whacking big parachute but they must have been slowed down because when I think, I thought well, how do they do it? Because when you see an airman jump out of a plane they come down, seem to come down a lot faster before the plane can go in. I thought, well I know they come down a bit slower in the end so there must have had special reasons. They must have made a special bomb to come down that bit slower. And the, and the parachutes must have, I know they must have helped them. But I mean as I say the all clear has gone. You think you’re alright. The next thing there’s a big thud. It must have been horrendous. But there again it hits you wouldn’t know anything would you?
RM: Did you lose any friends?
FD: No. No. Not that way. Oh yes. Yes. There was somebody down, down Earl Street but they were away at the time. But none, no. None.
RM: None of your —
FD: Not directly.
RM: Friends.
FD: No. We didn’t see they’d gone during, the only thing is I would say not friends but we just knew them. The locals.
RM: Yeah.
FD: That this bomb had dropped on the outside on the shelter. To me as I say it was just like a brick shelter. Well, you’d be better in your own home. It’s unfortunate unless it was strengthened but there again of course if you’d got a two floor building that top building, the top floor would save you from the other one but this was right on it. It’s just a pity that they were all coming, well they’re, even if they’re inside they would have. Another two or three minutes they’d have been in their own home. But it was just unfortunate. But how I can explain it? I do worry sometimes Zita but I was a happy go lucky. What happened happened to me. I’m one of these now. If it happens it happens. It’s, you know it’s not as though you can control it. What’s got to be has got to be. I’m a fatalist. But as I was saying I was happy go lucky then. And of course when you were a teenager in those day it was all boys, boys, boys. I didn’t mind but my mum used to worry as much, well worry me more and think, oh God, she’s at it again. She couldn’t do anything. She used to say, oh you know, and hush, hush. I’d say, ‘What are you hushing for?’ But yeah, it’s I think I could go through it again in a way but there again I don’t know. Of course these days it would be a lot worse. I mean one bomb would kill the lot of us, wouldn’t it?
CH: You were talking about your mum and you were saying that you never went hungry. What sort of food did your mum prepare considering it was rationed?
FD: Well, that’s it. With being a big family she could get a joint of meat.
RM: But what else did you get during the week. I mean —
FD: Well, we had —
RM: I mean meals during the week.
FD: That’s what I was saying. With dad being this milkman he was lucky. He used to serve this shop. What was it called? Anyway, it’ll come to me. And they used to, ‘Alright, Jimmy,’ and they used to put a bit of extra butter in for him. But there again if you think if you were on your own you’d most likely get a pack of butter it would last you about a fortnight. But if we, there were seven of you got a lot more for a week. You’d get more for a week and my mother used to say, ‘If you have butter you don’t have jam and if you have jam you don’t have butter.’ And my sister used to say, ‘I’ll tell you what mum. Butter that side, jam that side and then put them together.’ [laughs] That’s how we lived. And of course I didn’t like, ‘Oh, she doesn’t like that. Can I have you share.’ ‘Can I have your share.’
RM: So what would you, came home, say if you’d been at school twelve thirteen year old what would, what meal would you come home to in the week?
FD: A proper meal.
RM: What would you have for your breakfast say? Your lunch or tea.
FD: Well, well then we didn’t bother with breakfast. Used to have a piece of toast or bread and jam. Even then. Even now I don’t. But then for dinner my mum would make a little dinner. For tea anyway for us all because as I was saying we were lucky and also I think Mr Parkes liked my dad because he used to wink when he was wrapping something up you see.
RM: What about vegetables? I mean we hear that you couldn’t get vegetables and things.
FD: Oh no. Well, a lot of people used to grow their own.
RM: They did? Even in Manchester?
FD: Yes. Oh, yeah.
RM: Yeah.
FD: They had their own little back. I mean we could have done. My dad started something in the back garden but he never finished it. Oh, an apple tree. But he tried to grow an apple tree and then Edna, bless her she said, ‘It wants pruning.’ He said, ‘It does not.’ And he always, his chest used to always come out and he’d say, ‘I’ve told you girls it does not. Nature takes its own course.’ We’d say, ‘Right, dad.’ And Edna winked at us once. A couple of weeks later she got some crabapples and tied them on. She said, ‘Watch it, girls.’ We were all there. I can see it now. ‘Dad. Dad you’re right. Nature’s taken its own course.’ And he went out and he said and his hand went on his hips, ‘I told you girls nature takes its own course. Now, look at that for instance.’ And we said, ‘Wait for it.’ And we were all ready. And he went up and he said, ‘Oh hallup,’ because oh hallup. They’re crabapples. And they were hung with cotton [laughs] We flew out the back garden. He said, ‘I’ll give it you girls.’ But he took it all in good fun afterwards. He was such a gentle man. He was. But he was very strict as I say. As I say he made me clean the floor before I went out and you had to have your manners. Oh yes. I remember once saying to him at the table, ‘Can you let me have the salt?’ He said, ‘Pardon?’ I said, ‘I want the salt.’ He said, ‘Pardon?’ I said, ‘I want the salt.’ ‘Pardon?’ And he put, he says, ‘I can’t hear you. What are you saying?’ I said, ‘Can I have the salt, please?’ He said, ‘Now, I can hear you.’ And I felt like that. He made us have our manners and you had to say thank you, goodbye, goodnight, God bless and take us up. Oh, and being a terraced house and the open fire, had a little fireplace upstairs in the house in the bedroom. Used to take a shovel full of red hot coal up the stairs. It was a good job it didn’t fall off and it’s winter and we all had a bath and he used to go down with the nit comb ever week. Oh, he used to make sure we were all cleaned. ‘Are you ready?’ And we were stood in line. Winter. A spoonful of hot water, whisky and sugar. A spoonful each. We used to all go upstairs. Kneel at the bottom of the it was a giant bedstead. It was a king size and we all dashed for the middle of this bed because our feet were near the fire. Hands together. Keep your eyes closed. ‘Now then. Are you ready? Our father — ’ And we all had to say the prayers and I always remember saying, ‘Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the Lord my soul to keep. And if I die before I wake I pray the Lord my soul to take.’ And I always remember when I was saying that when it says if I die before I wake does it mean I’m going to die tonight. And he said, ‘Right. Bed.’ And then we all used to have our bed. He was, he was a good father. Strict but very good to us. Very good.
CB: I imagine he’d have to be strict having five girls.
FD: Yes. Yes. Well, actually he there was six girls but the first one was still born. It was, they got married in 1918 and my father had double pneumonia in 1919. And of course in those days neighbours went and helped you and it wasn’t Fredas and Marys and Jeans it was Mrs so and so, Miss Jones, Mrs Middleton you see, all came and helped. And my father was dying of double pneumonia and the doctor was there and he said, ‘I’m afraid he’s died.’ And he said, ‘I’ll go up to the surgery to get the certificate.’ And of course my mother was eight months pregnant and the neighbour’s there and he’d just got to the corner of the street and then the neighbour went around. He said, ‘He’s breathing.’ So he came back and he was breathing and he said, ‘I’ve just been to heaven and it’s absolutely beautiful. Let me go.’ And they said, ‘Well, think about your new baby coming.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Heaven’s absolutely gorgeous. Don’t be frightened, girls,’ he used to say to us. And then the next day he said, ‘How’s our baby?’ And his father was dying of cancer in the parlour and that was cancer of the bowel. My mum had to see to that. She was four foot eleven and a tea leaf. She was only small. She had my father dying. Well, he died. He always swore he died. And then she was eight months pregnant and the day after he said, ‘How’s our daughter Fanny?’ They said, ‘Oh, the baby’s not born yet.’ So, he said, ‘Yes, it is. She’s got golden curls like you Fanny.’ She had gorgeous hair. ‘It’s got all curls around its head.’ So he said, ‘Oh, she’s beautiful.’ ‘No.’ He says, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘She’s in my father’s arms.’ And they thought it’s an illusion. The next day she fell from the top of the stairs to the bottom. The baby was born with golden curls around its head. My grandad died and she was buried in my grandad’s arms. That’s what my father saw.
CH: Wow.
FD: And he used to say, ‘Don’t be frightened of dying. It’s wonderful.’ And he used to say that. ‘Don’t be frighted girls. It’s wonderful.’ Yeah. And of course he managed to come around then. Francis was born the year after and then Edna and then Helen. Well, she was christened Nelly actually but she was a bit of a toff. She liked to be called Helen [laughs] That’s true. And then there was me and then there was Margaret. And I lost Margaret last Christmas. But I had a good life in one way. I was the odd sheep. The black sheep of the family. The odd one out. Why I do not know. I’ve told you before haven’t I? And Margaret, Margaret hardly, you know says I can’t understand it. And when my sister died at Christmas I said, ‘I’m still the odd one out.’ She said, ‘How do you make that out?’ I said, ‘They’re all up there laughing at me. I’m the last one.’ But yeah. I don’t know. I’ve enjoyed life. I don’t worry much do I?
The interview has been edited here as the interviewee spoke about personal, post war matters.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Freda Dakin
Creator
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Cathie Hewitt
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADakinF170918, PDakinF1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:02:48 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Lancashire
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Salford, just outside of Manchester, Freda was a teenager during the Second World War. She recalls her family's culture, school life, meal requirements and how she reacted to the war being declared. She also recounts her experiences of near-misses during bombing, and her understanding of the Anderson shelters. Despite being a family of seven, she believed she had a good diet during the war, because of her father being a milkman and getting the family extra food. She claims that during the war she was not afraid of the bombs, having quite a fatalistic attitude, she also enjoyed the freedom it brought and how it was like an adventure. She claims she could differentiate between American, British and German aircraft through the sounds of their engines, but also believes that the sirens were always sounded after the plane had arrived.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
home front
shelter