1
25
50
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Albert Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. The collection concerns Sergeant Albert Thomas Smith (b. 1908, 560209 Royal Air Force) and contains correspondence, documents and a photograph. He served as an engine fitter with 106 Squadron.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Diane Ralph and catalogued by Lynn Corrigan.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-06-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, AT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Albert Thomas Smith's service record
Description
An account of the resource
The service record of Albert Thomas Smith covering the period from his enlistment on 15 January 1926 to discharge on 23 March 1953. It includes reference to Albert being twice mentioned in despatches and being awarded the British Empire Medal and the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1926-01-15
1953-03-23
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Warwickshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales
Wales--Anglesey
Iraq
Iraq--Baghdad
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Service material
Format
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Two double sided sheets with handwritten annotations
Identifier
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OSmithAT560209-230614-010001; OSmithAT560209-230614-010002; OSmithAT560209-230614-010003; OSmithAT560209-230614-010004;
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
106 Squadron
149 Squadron
170 Squadron
38 Squadron
617 Squadron
ground crew
RAF Castle Bromwich
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cranwell
RAF Filton
RAF Halton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hucknall
RAF Leconfield
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Mount Batten
RAF Scampton
RAF Stradishall
RAF Valley
RAF Waddington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46432/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v020002.MP3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: Good morning. I’m Dawn Oakley. Today is the 20th of April 2011. I have with me Anne Harcombe who is going to chat to us for our project, “Shouting the Odds.” Welcome, Anne. Thanks for coming.
AM: Thank you very much. My name is Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe. The Rose was from my first marriage and the Harcombe from my second. I was born in Middlesex in London on the 17th of July 1938. My mother was Welsh and my father English. My father was George Albert Phillips and was born in 1915 in Finchley in London and my mother was Muriel Morgan and was born in Glynneath in South Wales in 1914. She came up to London as a house parlour maid arranged by the local chapel and was put into a household in Highgate and that’s where she met my father who was the fish boy delivering the fish. And he had to be vetted by the lady of the house before he was actually allowed to take my mother out so they were very well looked after. 1938 was not an auspicious year to be born because then we were immediately evacuated when I was six months old down to my grandparents in South Wales because of the threat of the war. I lived in South Wales until I was nine and went to school there but I lived with my grandparents who was Margaret Morgan and my grandfather who was Isaac Morgan and we lived in Glynneath which is a small village between Merthyr Tydfil and Swansea. I went to school there and in my formative years Welsh was spoken in the house and only Welsh. We only spoke English when we had visitors that couldn’t speak Welsh. Going to school we did Welsh and English and because I was an evacuee, in brackets, I had to learn English and Welsh. We had a great time in school and it really was. We were very well looked after. My father went into the Army and he was in the Rifle Brigade and my mother who was with me in South Wales went into a munitions factory in a place called Rhigos which is at the top of the Neath Valley and she made, helped to make shells and bombs and all sorts of things. And one of my aunts, my Auntie Mari she worked with her. I had a younger aunt who was still at school because she was just ten years older than me. My grandfather was a miner and three of my uncles and they were in what was called a Reserved Occupation so they couldn’t join the Army albeit three of them, three of them all tried. They tried the Air Force, the Navy and the Army and were all sent back much to their chagrin. They, they really did want to join up and do their bit but they were told digging coal was their bit and my, as I say my grandfather was a miner as well. Two of my uncles also were in the National Fire Service. So they were called out as volunteers and at the bottom of the road where we lived they had built a brick garage which we had the fire engine was housed there and a man used to sit at the back of the garage in a little room with a telephone. And if they were needed the message used to come to him and then he used to get on his bike and ride all around the village trying to shake up enough to make a crew because a lot of them were working and they worked three shifts. I’ve known my uncles come home from work and go to bed only to be called out again. And in the hall standing of my grandmother’s house their kit used to hang. Their boots with their trousers rolled down over them and all their bits and pieces hanging so that they just stepped into everything and it was pain of death if you touched anything [laughs] But they did a very good job and were called out to Swansea mostly because of bombing the docks there. Where am I? My grandfather had a very large garden so I was always out there with him. He made me a small wooden wheelbarrow and I had my own spade and I used to go and help him dig so that we could plant vegetables. He also used to garden the next door but one garden because the lady there was a widow so he put that down to vegetables as well. So we never went short of vegetables and we were very fortunate because my grandfather had a great friend who had a farm and we used to go up and help with the haymaking and everything else.
Interviewer: How old were you when you were helping [unclear]
AM: Oh, I was about what? Four. Something like that. Three or four. And we used to go up to the farm and help with the haymaking. Any of us who that not working or anything like that because most of the men had gone off or were miners and they were just short of labour. So we used to go up and help on the farm and of course if anything was slaughtered we always used to get our little bit. Our little bit of meat or something like that. So I can’t honestly say that I remember really going without.
Interviewer: No.
AM: As a child, you know we were well fed. Two of my aunts knitted so we were always well clothed. And I think all in all I had a very very happy childhood.
Interviewer: I don’t blame you.
AM: I had one of my uncles, my eldest, no the youngest uncle, my Uncle Ensor on a Monday I used to brush his Sunday suit off and clean his Sunday shoes and put those away and I used to earn sixpence for doing that. And my other uncle, Vivien he smoked a pipe and all his tobacco came as a plug. So, on a Wednesday the newspaper was put on the table and I used to rub all his tobacco and fill his pouch and fill the jar and I used to get sixpence for that. And that was my Saturday morning picture money. It was sixpence to go into the pictures and I had sixpence for sweets and my grandmother used to cut the sweet coupon out of the ration book and give it to me. Well, if you think a sweet coupon was about the size of your thumbnail so I used to have that between my thumb and finger and run across the road to the shop which was called Dick Williams and all the sweets were in jars up on the shelf and you could have whatever you liked. You know, you could have an ounce of this or an ounce of that and you always said when you went in, ‘I’ve got sixpence to spend, Dick,’ and then he used to say, ‘Right, well you can have—', you know [pause] ‘Right. You’ve spent your sixpence.’ And we used to have a mixture of all sorts of things in a triangular bag with a twist on the top of it.
Interviewer: Oh. Yeah.
AM: For us to go to the pictures.
Interviewer: I was going to say did you have a favourite sweetie back then?
AM: I liked Jelly Babies and they used to do a very wicked line in Dolly Mixtures so you know we used to have a mixture of all sorts of things and perhaps a couple of mints thrown in and those little chocolate buttons with the hundreds and thousands on the top of them. We used to have those as well.
Interviewer: Pick and mix.
AM: But, it was. It was early pick and mix.
Interviewer: Yeah.
AM: It really was. And we used to go to Saturday morning pictures where we used to cheer Roy Rogers and all the others and nail biting serial which used to end up with and you had to wait ‘til the following week to find what was going to happen because somebody had just fallen off their horse and was hanging on to the edge of a canyon. But it was, it was great fun and that was Saturday mornings and we used to do that. My grandfather being a miner used to have his coal delivered and they used to get a certain amount of coal a year free. But when it came it used to come in a big lorry and it was just tipped on the pavement so we used to have to take it in. So my grandfather as I say had made me this little wheelbarrow. So from about the age of four I helped fetch the coal in because I used to go out with my wheelbarrow. He used to load it up and then I used to take it down to the coalhouse and tip it on one side because I had the smaller pieces. Then he would bring the bigger pieces in and would make like a wall in the coalhouse and then the smaller pieces were tipped inside it so that it was all kept nice and tidy.
Interviewer: Was that one of your usual chores or did you get paid for –
AM: No. I didn’t get paid for that.
Interviewer: Right.
AM: No. That was just something that had to be done.
Interviewer: You had to.
AM: Yes. I used to help my grandmother on washing day and I can remember she had a dolly which was put into the bath, a tin bath and she, we used to dolly the clothes and then they were put on to the line. And I used to go down and help her and hand the pegs to her while she put the washing out and then when we brought it in then I used to help her to fold it and usually when either my aunt or my mother came home from work whichever shift they were working they would do the ironing. But we all helped at home. We were not allowed to do nothing. We were always found jobs to do no matter how small they were. But my grandmother used to say to me, ‘Go and pick peas.’ And I used to go down to the garden and I knew when I was about five or six I knew how many peas we would need. How many pods of peas we would need to feed us all because my grandparents had seven children. My mother was the second eldest. And of course, when we moved down there my youngest aunt was only ten years older than me and my Uncle Ensor was only thirteen years older than me so they were more like a brother and sister to me than they were aunts and uncles. As I say I went to school there. And when we moved back to London when I was nine and we, I went to Poplar Road School in Morden because my father had come out of the Army and my uncle had a greengrocer’s shop in Middlesex, in Queensbury where I was born and he sold that and bought a shop in Morden and my father went to help him to run it. And then my uncle became paralysed so my father took over and my Uncle Bill stayed at home and did the books and we moved in with him. So we lived with him then albeit he’d had a housekeeper before, Auntie Hilda and she still used to come and do the cleaning. And we moved in with him then and we were there for four, nine, ten, eleven. We were there for three years when my Uncle Bill died. He left the shop to my father but the house had been left to Auntie Hilda so we had to move out. My father by then had found somebody else so he went waltzing off with them and left my mother and I destitute really. We had nowhere to live. She went to the council and they said that the housing was very short supply at that time and we were put into what was called a Rest Centre which was a big church hall that had been divided up in rooms by just plyboard. We were not allowed to take any furniture or anything with us. We had two camp beds and a deal cupboard to put our clothes in. It had a kitchen but no bathroom but it had one of these very large shallow butler sinks which they said the children could be sat in to wash. When we lived in Morden my mother had made a very good friend at the top of the road and she was appalled to think that we were living in such conditions so after school which I was near their house, after school I used to go there and my mother used to come straight because she was a school meals caterer then. She used to come from school to Auntie Claire’s. Auntie Claire was an English teacher. She couldn’t cook to save her life so my mother used to take on all the cooking and a bit of the cleaning and Auntie Claire used to do all the sewing. So we were never short of clothes or anything. We used to buy a piece of material and she would make us a dress.
Interviewer: Brilliant. So did you move in with Auntie Claire?
AM: We didn’t. We stayed at the Rest Centre until they, because they hadn’t got room. They’d got two girls. So we used to go there and we used to leave there by about 7 o’clock.
Interviewer: Right.
AM: At night and get on the bus and go back to Raynes Park where we were then living. And then the council found us a flat which was a house which they had requisitioned because there was just one lady living in it and we had the upstairs of this house as a flat. And then later on they rehoused us in a council flat at South Wimbledon. But it was pretty tough I can tell you at that particular time and my mother felt very guilty that she hadn’t got a home to offer me.
Interviewer: Was she still working?
AM: She was still working. She was working full time and my father gave us three pounds a week housing allowance. Housekeeping allowance which I used to go to the shop to collect when I left school. Then I went and worked for him on a Saturday, Saturday morning and I used to go and work in the shop. On a Friday night we used to take down the old shows of all the vegetables and fruit that had been up on the wall and they would be put then to be sold off cheaply. And we used to put new shows up on a Friday night and then work all day Saturday. And on a Friday straight from school we had a big tank at the back of the shop, a big old tank that had come out of somebody’s house which had running water in it. I used to have to, I think my father was the first people, person that ever washed vegetables and salad before it was sold because he insisted that all the celery was to be scrubbed. So we didn’t sell dirty celery. We sold washed celery. And everything had to be dipped. The lettuces and everything. The tomatoes used to come in in boats and I used to have to sort the tomatoes because we used to have frying, small, medium, and best quality. So four lots of tomatoes used to come out of one boat of tomatoes and I used to have to sort those as well. So my job was the salad really and I used to have to keep that going and we had a chap that had worked for my uncle in Middlesex and he used to come every Saturday to manage the salad part because we used to sell quite a lot. And old Fred, I don’t know how old he was. He must have been quite ancient and he had dreadful arthritis and he used to walk like a penguin really and he used to come on the train. On the tube to Morden and he used to walk down then to the shop and he used to, and he always wanted a cup of tea as soon as he got there. And then I used to make tea for him and take it out to him and he always used to say to me, he used to just drink it straight down, I think he had a cast iron gullet because he always used to say to me, ‘Make it a bit hotter next time, girl.’ But I used to keep him supplied with salad then during the during, during the day and at lunchtime I used to have to go across the road and we had an ABC restaurant across the road and I used to have to go over and find out what was on the menu and come back and tell him because my father used to buy him lunch. So I used to have to run across the road then. Tell him what was on the menu and I used to have to go and do it and every week he had steak and kidney pudding but I still had to go over to see what was on the menu. So I used to go over and get his steak and kidney pudding and I had to cross two roads and bring it back on a tray and he used to sit out the back and eat that and then I used to take the dishes back and come back with either apple pie and custard or something like that for him for his pudding.
Interviewer: How old were you then?
AM: I was about thirteen.
Interviewer: Right. A teenager.
AM: And then, so that was sort of the shop really there. Then when I left school at fifteen I wanted to be a florist. I’d always wanted to be a florist. I always wanted to be a lady that worked in a flower shop. So my grandmother had a dresser and I used to keep it full of wildflowers and she had paste pots and jam jars and everything and I always used to keep that filled from when I was quite a small, small child really. So I always wanted to be a florist and we had careers officers that come into the school by then and they were not terribly helpful because all they wanted to do was to push all the girls into office work and I said, ‘No. I want to be a florist. So we, we tried and they were not helpful so I thought right I’m going to go out and get my own job. So, I went out and tried various places and then I went with my mother one day to Victoria. On the train to Victoria Street and there was a lovely catering shop there and she’d got a special wedding on and she wanted to go and get some cutters. So as we came out of the station I saw Moyses Stevens Florist which had water all running down the inside of the window and I said to her, ‘Oh, I wonder if they’ve got a job.’ So I went in and she went down to her shop and I went in there. I was sort of about I suppose about four foot six. Pulled myself up to my full height and this lady came and said, ‘May I help you?’ And I said, ‘I’d like to see the manager please.’ And she said, ‘Oh. What is it about?’ And I said, ‘Well, I wondered if you needed an apprentice.’ So, this gentleman duly arrived in his striped trousers and frock coat. He was the manager of the shop and spoke to me for a little while and then said, ‘Are you on your own?’ And I said, ‘No. My mother is just down the road.’ So he said, ‘Well when she comes back,’ he said, ‘I’ll interview you.’ So he interviewed me and he said yes. He would give me a job as an apprentice but we would have to pay. Well, as my mother said that was totally out of the question because she was the only breadwinner and there was no way that we could pay for an apprenticeship. So he said, ‘Well, leave it with me and I’ll see what I can do.’ So a week later we got a letter from him to say that I had got my apprenticeship and the date I was to start and that it was being paid by the Worshipful Company of Gardeners from the City of London and they were sponsoring me. So I had my five year apprenticeship. I had two years as a junior and three years as an improver and then when I finished there I went to the West End of London an I did contract work and I did shops and hotels and offices. We used to do the arrangements on a Saturday in the shop because we could get market on a Saturday morning and then they were all taken out on a Monday morning on the van and deposited in various places. I used to do Dolcis in Oxford Street which was on three floors and there were fourteen arrangements there. Then I used to go around the back to Stratford Court Hotel and I had six arrangements to do there. And then I used to go to Burroughs Adding Machine and there was one large arrangement there and that was on one of these seats. I don’t know if you remember them that were completely round and padded in velvet and the arrangement was on the top in the middle and I used to take my shoes off. But the lady who we nicknamed the dragon used to come rushing out with a piece of newspaper to put on the seat for us to stand on in case we had dirty stockings. But I used to do that and then go back to the shop and we used to write up what was in each arrangement and what colouring it was so that we knew what spares we had to take and what colour. And I had a trug basket which was about three foot long and about a foot and a half, about a foot and a half wide which was made of wood that I used to have to carry around with all my flowers in. I had a metal watering can as well that I used to have to take plus my scissors and secateurs and I used to have to walk and I did that for two years. I used to have when I finished at Burroughs’s I used to go back to the shop and have my cup of coffee but at the Stratford Court Hotel I was always, I used to work just off the kitchen and I was always given breakfast and the chef always used to say, ‘What would you like, Anne? And I used to say oh whatever.’ And he used to say, ‘Oh, the smoked salmon and scrambled egg is a bit slow today.’ And I used to say, ‘Oh well, I’ll have that.’ You know. As if it was –
Interviewer: Brilliant.
AM: You know. Such a hardship.
Interviewer: Yeah.
AM: But I used to have breakfast there and I used to have to work underneath the staircase with a table which was a flap that used to come down and I used to have to tuck myself underneath this staircase to work. But and then I used to have my, fill my basket again and I used to go out and I used to do Cinephone which was the cinema opposite Selfridges and I’d do three arrangements there. One of them was in the manager’s office and I hated doing that because he was a bottom pincher and at that time you know we didn’t have equal rights and all this sort of thing and so I used to say to the young man when I went in, ‘Is he in?’ If he wasn’t in I would dash in and do that one first and then do the two upstairs. But if he was in I’d just had to run the gauntlet you know. And I used to sort of move around the room so that he couldn’t get but invariably he used to pinch my bottom before I left. And I can remember saying to my boss who was a German about this thinking that he would do something about it and all he said to me was, ‘Well, I’m sorry. I can’t do anything about it because he pays his bills.’ So I just had to put up with it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Put up –
AM: I used to have my lunch then and then in the afternoon I used to go and decorate in the American Embassy and then I used to do Marcelles the furrier which was in Bond Street.
Interviewer: Oh.
AM: And then I used to go back to the shop. I used to start at half past seven in the morning and I’d go back to the shop when I’d finished and if it was before half past four I used to have to work in the workroom until it was half past four. Then I could go home. So in actual fact it worked out quite well because I was in front and, of the rush hour going to work and coming home and I used to, we lived at Morden and I used to get the tube from Morden then to Tottenham Court Road and change then to Bond Street. But I did that for two years and got a bit fed up with it. And then I was offered a job in the same company but working in the on the Exhibition Team. So then I went and did venues outside. We used to decorate places like the Albert Hall, Farnborough Air Show. We used to go every year to the British Industries Fair in Birmingham. We used to go twice a year to France to decorate for Ford’s. We used to do the Covent Garden when the Queen was going to be there. I’ve made wedding, I’ve made bouquets for all the royal family. All the royal ladies.
Interviewer: Oh.
AM: At one time or another. And I did that for two years and my partner because we worked in twos was a young man and then when I married my husband didn’t really appreciate me [recketing] around the country with an unmarried man. So I packed the job up and came local again and managed a shop. Then I had my son so I didn’t work for a year and then I got him into a nursery because we lived in a flat. I got him into a nursery school and I went back to work part time.
Interviewer: What did your husband do?
AM: He was an engineer. He worked for Osram’s as it was then.
Interviewer: Oh right.
AM: And he used to cut the big gears that were used in large pieces of machinery like dams and things like that. Very precision work. And so then I went back to work again then and then after we’d, I’d had worked there for a few years I opened my own business in Roehampton which was near Putney. Between Putney and Kingston and I opened my own florist business there and which I had for sixteen years. My husband had a heart attack. He was older than me. He was fifteen years older than me and he had a heart attack and died when I was forty.
Interviewer: Oh dear.
AM: And I was left with the business and everything else.
Interviewer: How old was your son at this time?
AM: He was eighteen. And then we, we struggled on. We carried on.
Interviewer: As you do.
AM: As you do. But I had a very great friend who was my Interflora field officer and he used to visit the shop every couple, every three months to make sure we were alright and everything and I was on the committee for Interflora District 1 and Chris used to pick me up because he was passing to take me up to the meetings in London and take me home again. He was divorced from his wife and we got together.
Interviewer: Oh, how lovely.
AM: I’d know Chris for twelve years so it was like an old, like marrying an old friend.
Interviewer: Yeah.
AM: It was really.
Interviewer: Oh, that’s nice.
AM: It really was. It was wonderful. Then Interflora offered him a job in Lincolnshire, in Sleaford so we moved up then and he took over and managed the Training Department there. I sold the business and we moved up and I was at a loose end and had nothing to do so I started tutoring for Interflora. We used to do schools. Weekend schools. And I used to go off to Scotland or Ireland or we used to have one at Knutsford. We had one at, near Beamish Hall. We used to go to Bobby Shaftoe’s house there.
Interviewer: Oh.
AM: Which had been turned into a school and we used to go there and we used to tutor girls and we did different courses. We used to have girls that would, or boys who had just come into the business. So we used to take them so that by the time they went back to their shops they could address a customer, take a cheque, take money, give change, make a cellophane gift wrap, make a buttonhole. So they were becoming a useful member of staff. So we used to have a three day school then. Then we did sympathy work for funerals. We did wedding courses. We did all sorts of things. Gift courses and everything. And then I became an assessor for, for Interflora as well when people did examinations. And then I decided that I was away a lot and really didn’t want to be away that much so I decided I would go to Riseholme College near Lincoln and see if they wanted someone to teach in their Floristry Department. And of course, the first thing I was asked was have you got a piece of paper? And I said, ‘No. I’m sorry I haven’t got a piece of paper. But I have forty two years experience.’ But I was told that no I couldn’t have a job because I hadn’t got a piece of paper. I hadn’t got a teaching degree. I hadn’t got a piece of paper to say that I was a florist. So I came back and I said to Chris, I said, ‘I’m really miffed about this.’ So he said, ‘Well, go and do a course.’ So he found out for me and I went to Monks Road and I did a Teacher Training Course which was hilarious in itself because there were about twenty of us in this room all from different backgrounds. We all did different jobs. We had hairdressers, firemen, we had all sorts of people and the lady that I palled up with she came from Lincoln Hospital and she was an incontinence nurse. So we were all very diverse and we had two tutors and the first day we were there we just fell about because we had this lady to teach us and she was a psychologist. And she came and she said, ‘Right, today’s lesson is going to be communication. How to communicate with people.’ So she started off and all we had were all these abbreviated letters for things. Well, we didn’t know what she was talking about, you know. Instead of saying the Royal Air Force she would say the RAF. Well, you know in other contexts we didn’t know what she was talking about. Well, this went on for about a quarter of an hour and we were all looking at each other and all shrugging our shoulders and I said to Joan, this lady from Lincoln hospital, ‘I’ve had enough of this.’ So, I put my hand up and she said, ‘Yes.’ And I said, ‘Are we supposed to be communicating?’ And she said, ‘Well, yes.’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m afraid we’re not.’ And she was quite shocked and I said to her, ‘You’re using all these abbreviations. We haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about.’ I said, ‘Had you written them all down on a piece of paper and we’d had that given to us.’ I said, ‘Well then, we could look it up and find out what you were talking about. But as it is now we have no idea what you’re talking about.’ And she said, ‘Oh, dear.’ She said, ‘I haven’t prepared this very well, have I?’ And I said, ‘No. I’m afraid you haven’t.’ So that was the end of that lesson. But we muddled through and I did get my Teacher Training Certificate and I went back to Riseholme and I said, ‘I’ve got my piece of paper.’ And they said, ‘Oh, well we can offer you one morning a week.’ So I said, ‘Oh, I don’t think so.’ So I said –
Interviewer: A long way to go, isn’t it?
AM: I said to Chris, ‘I need something to do.’ So I bought another shop. I bought a shop in Ruskington and it was a florist shop and I revamped it. My son and Chris stood inside the door and they said, ‘What do you want to do?’ And I said, ‘Gut it.’ So we gutted it all out. We redecorated it. We revamped it and we opened and I had that for nine years.
Interviewer: As a florist.
AM: As a florist. Yes. Chris retired and said, ‘Are you retiring?’ And I said, ‘No, I’ll give it another year.’ And then I retired, and unfortunately in 2000 he was diagnosed with prostate cancer and I’m afraid I lost him in 2011. No. Sorry 2009. So, I’m now moving on with my life. I belong to a Flower Club. Woodhall Spa Flower Club. And I did when I twenty five years ago I joined Sleaford Flower Club and I became a demonstrator for Flower Clubs and I used to travel all around the place. Our area covered from Sheffield down to Stamford and from the coast into the Peak District to Matlock.
Interviewer: Oh.
AM: And I used to visit all the different Clubs and do floral demonstrations and, and that was great. I used to thoroughly enjoy that and when Chris retired he used to drive me and we used to have a great time. But I did it for fifteen years and then decided that, that I’d had enough and I really didn’t, didn’t want to do any more. So having done fifteen years for them I retired. But I’m still working. I still do weddings for people. People that, I had a lady ring me up a couple, last well a couple of weeks ago and she has got four daughters and the fourth one is now getting married and, ‘Will you do the flowers because you’ve done the other three.’ So at seventy two I’m still battling on.
Interviewer: That’s lovely.
AM: I’m still working. The body is weakening but the mind is only thirty and I have to keep telling myself now slow down a little bit because you’re not thirty. But I do go and on a Monday morning I do a Zumba class. I’m trying to lose some weight with Weight Watchers and all in all I lead a very active life. My son lives in Louth. He moved up and lives in Louth. I have a grandson, Joshua. He lives in Sleaford with his mum and he is just preparing now and trying to get himself in to the RAF. He’s been an Air Cadet for three years and he’s just gone up for promotion. He’s got his masters, he’s a Master Cadet so he’s got his lanyard and he’s had an interview last Monday now to try and get promotion. So I’m hoping that he will get it because he desperately wants to go into the RAF as an aircraft mechanic. So I think I filled you in quite a bit with my bits and pieces.
Interviewer: That’s very interesting.
AM: I go to Cranwell to church who are a brilliant lot there and I thoroughly enjoy going to church because we have such an hilarious time and as I say I have lots of friends and I do live a very active life. I hope this will be interesting to somebody.
Interviewer: Well, I found it very interesting.
AM: Good.
Interviewer: Thank you very much, Anne.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe
1001-Harcombe, Anne Morgan Rose-Cranwell Aviation
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v02
Creator
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Dawn Oakley
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Date
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2011-04-20
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:38:47 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary. Allocated C Campbell
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe was born in London in 1938 and was evacuated with her mother at the start of the war to live with her mother’s family in South Wales
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
Wales
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
childhood in wartime
evacuation
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2333/42126/PCrossK22010012.2.jpg
f88ae0bee4cd9a6e0e45e8d26d902f6a
Dublin Core
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Title
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Cross, Kathleen. Album
Description
An account of the resource
27 items. An album with newspaper cuttings, photographs and postcards covering RAF personnel and establishments in West Malling, Penarth and Peterborough.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-05-07
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cross, K
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Penarth and RAF Peterborough
Description
An account of the resource
A photograph of 24 members of the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force in three rows; the first row of eight sat either side of a member of the Royal Air Force wearing a side cap. The second and third rows, each of eight women, are standing. All personnel are wearing gloves. It has been taken outside alongside a building and in front of trees. It is annotated 'Penarth - S Wales, 1943'. A second photograph has been taken inside a hall and shows members of the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force with Group Captain A Damms, wearing a greatcoat and holding an officer's cap with women civilians. It is annotated 'RAF Westwoood - Peterborough Left to right A\S\O, Staff Officer Kenny, Group Captain A Damms, Flight officer Walker, Staff Officer, Sergeant S Kelly'.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales
Wales--Penarth
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two b/photographs in an album
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCrossK22010012
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
ground personnel
RAF Peterborough
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1992/37854/EWallisETNogalJ440912-0001.2.jpg
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cb74fde10cc7280a0bac755457a2486c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Nogal, Jozef
J Nogal
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Nogal, J
Description
An account of the resource
58 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Jozef Nogal (b. 1911, Polskie Siły Powietrzne) and contains his prisoner of war log, documents, objects and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 305 Squadron and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Wanda Elizabeth Atkey and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Jozef Nogal from ET Wallis
Description
An account of the resource
Elizabeth writes that her training continues, she is going into Edinburgh to have dinner with a friend of her Mother's and she thinks she will work as a driver,
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
ET Wallis
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-09-12
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Scotland
Wales
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One handwritten prisoner of war letter
Identifier
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EWallisETNogalJ440912-0001, EWallisETNogalJ440912-0002
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription. Allocated
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-09-12
ground personnel
prisoner of war
Stalag Luft 3
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2144/37057/PFieldPL19070015.1.jpg
ded0e41724985279cb0e98cbe9eacf22
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Field, Peter L and Cynthia G. Photograph album 4
Description
An account of the resource
22 items. Photograph album covers, eighteen double pages of photographs of family events, places and people as well as three stand alone photographs.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-19
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Field, PL-CG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Family photographs
Description
An account of the resource
Right page:
Top left - woman sitting in chair in garden.
Top right - woman and a man sitting alongside each other on chairs in garden with trellis behind them.
Bottom left - a man wearing suit and tie and woman wearing dress standing side by side in a doorway.
Caption on spine 'Wimbourne 1976'.
Right page:
Captions on spine from top to bottom 'Central Wales, 1961', '1961', 'Wales 1961'.
Top - woman wearing skirt ad top walking across slope of mountain with valley and other mountain in the distance.
Bottom left - woman standing on mountainside looking over valley at rock outcrops on far side.
Bottom right - half length image of a woman wearing striped top.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1976
1961
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1976
1961
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales
England--Dorset
England--Wimborne Minster
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Six colour photographs mounted on two album pages
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFieldPL19070015
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1881/36283/SChristianAL29160v10018-0001.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1881/36283/SChristianAL29160v10018-0002.2.jpg
f8c5a511409d7101b7c1c56f2a12279d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Christian, Arnold Louis
A L Christian
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Christian, AL
Description
An account of the resource
93 items. The collection concerns Wing Commander <span>Arnold Louis</span> <span>Christian </span>(1906 - 1941, 29160 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents and photographs. He flew operation as a pilot with 105 Squadron and was killed 8 May 1941.<br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Steven Christian and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />Additional information on <span>Arnold Louis</span> <span>Christian</span> is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/204958/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
VINCENT FRANCIS CHRISTIAN
Nothing, beyond some of the addresses the family lived at, is known of Vincent’s early life before his marriage to Gertrude Louisa Barley in 1899 at the age of 22. At this time he was a commercial traveler [sic] in tobacco products and, in 1900 at his daughter Vera’s birth, he is described on her birth certificate as a tobacconist. We know, from the previously mentioned postcards held by Audrey that he travelled extensively, probably in support of of [sic] occupation as a tobacco salesman.
Between 1900 and 1903 Vincent and Gertrude were resident at 38 Cedar Grove, Charlton but, during 1903 moved to 93 Loder Road, Preston Park, Brighton. Their second child, Arnold Louis was born here on 30th January 1906. However, by this time Vincent had changed occupation, (maybe, with a young family to be at home more regularly), to that of cashier for the Brighton & Sussex Motor Company which was based at the Grand Hotel, Brighton. He held this position at least between 1905 and 1907. In November 1906 the family moved to 91 Addison Road, Hove, and remained here until 1912. This was their address at the time of the 1911 census which also shows that Norman had been born a few months earlier.
From the postcards, one was addressed to the family at ‘Shamrock’, Lyndhurst Road, (Hove?), but in May 1912 both Vincent and Gertrude were in the Isle of Man. It is not known if this was a short visit, (holiday?), or a longer stay. Nor is it known if the children were with them.
By 1914 the family address had changed to 111 Albion Street, New Brighton, Cheshire. (On the Wirral). Why the move here is not known but, most likely, due to employment opportunities. Between 1915 and 1918 the family address was 54 Duke Street, Birkenhead and Vincent either owned, or was employed by, Birkenhead Motor Works at Shoto garage. (My inclination is that he owned the business. Firstly, he had the financial capacity at this time to send his son Arnold to a first rate public school, (Ruthin College), and to move the business to, presumably, a much larger premises at 4 Devonshire Road. His second son, Norman, was also a student at Ruthin School around this time.
Note
Although there are gaps in dates between moves, the known addresses is where the post cards were sent. Dates are taken from the postmarks. It could well be that the family was at a known address but outside known dates and this would be because there was no postcard correspondence available to accurately locate them there at a particular time.
By 1922 the next recorded address was 4 Devonshire Road although the exact date of their arrival there is not known. This large property had a vehicle yard and garages with rooms above, (these buildings may have been stales and cart lodges previously). Daughter Vera was employed in an administrative and under manager capacity within the business. It was here that Vera met her future husband – George Bolton. He was employed as a mechanic/driver. Apparently, the match being one of employer and employee wasn’t with complete approval by her family at the time. After this date things become a little hazy. Vincent was the proprietor at least until 1924, but it is known that at some point after this date, and before 1930, Vera and her husband took over the business and it became Bolton’s Grey Cabs – a taxi company – and still run from 4 Devonshire Road. During WW2 a bomb fell in the area of the main vehicle entranceway just to the right of the house. No-one was hurt, but the archway over the entrance was destroyed.
After 1924 Vincent’s movements are unclear. During the mid to late 1920’s Gertrude certainly, and possibly Vincent too, owned, leased or managed at least three public houses in the Ruthin area of North Wales, though it is not known if more than one at any time. First was the King’s Head, (and Audrey believed they were together here), followed by the Druids Inn and then the Solusbury [sic] Arms In 1928 a ‘Christian’ was at Solusbury [sic] Arms though who isn’t known.
Did Vincent sell or give the motor business to Vera and her husband sometime in the mid to late ‘20’s and move into the hostelry trade – or was that just Gertrude while Vincent did other things? Did Vincent continue to own the motor company for a while with Vera managing it while he went elsewhere? The answers to these questions are not known – even by Audrey – who lived and grew up at 4 Devonshire Road while her parents owned the cab company.
It is known in the family, and was related to me first by grannie, and then by Audrey, that Vincent and Gertrude came to live separate lives but they remained married with a certain level of affection and would meet-up for family events – Christmas being one such – at 4 Devonshire Road, even sharing a room. The reason for the separation, at least outwardly appears to have been Gertrude’s profligacy. Both grannie and Audrey have said how she would spend considerable funds at Birkenhead & Liverpool department stores – often on account – on such items as shoes, bedding
[page break]
and linens, much of which was put away, unopened and unused. Eventually, Vincent took out newspaper statements that he could no longer be liable for debts she incurred if stores sold on account. This would have been quite a drastic step to take, particularly in public, and no doubt this occurred in the mid to late 20’s coinciding with the separation, and the general loss of who was where and when.
Note
In the ‘Barley’ family section of this history, see the handwritten letter to Audrey from her cousin Christine in which the purchase of ‘hats’ is mentioned. The same letter also mentions Gertrude’s father, James Barley, ‘drinking the profits.’ Is this history repeating itself?
My own feeling is that Vincent either sold or left the management of the motor business to Vera and her husband and then, in someway, set Gertrude up in the public house business before leaving her to ‘get on with it’ while he pursued his own fairly separate life. The location of the public houses is an area they both knew, but it was removed from the ignomy [sic] of remaining in Birkenhead after the newspaper statements. Coincidentally it was close to Ruthin school where Norman may still have been a pupil but, also conceivably, if this had all occurred in the very late 20’s, (Norman would have been 18 in September 1928), it was after all the children were grown.
Note
Norman owned or leased a succession of public houses in Bradford and West Yorkshire, (the Rose & Crown in Westgate, Bradford), was one of these, during the 1950’s and 60’s. Did he learn the trade as a teenager or young man in those North Wales public houses?
A postcard from the collection has Vincent sending or selling cigarettes from Birch House, Bodfare, Denbigh In June 1929. It seems, over the following years, Vincent only occasionally dipped into his family’s lives. Where he lived or how he gained an income, certainly after the mid to late 1920’s is unclear. It has been said that he worked for the Thomas Cook Company in some capacity. Vera, his daughter, claimed he lived in a caravan at some time which could all, to a greater or lesser degree, be true.
Vincent was certainly in the area of North Wales where Vera lived, (Pant Erwyn, Trelawnydd), at the end of the 1950’s and early 1960’s. At that time my family lived in Angelsey where my father was stationed with the RAF and either we visited Aunt Vera while Vincent was with her, or they visited us, (possibly with Norman – see his letter). Either way, I am told that as a very small child I was bounced on Great grandfather Vincent’s knee, though of course I don’t remember it. At the end of his life Vincent was living with, and being cared for by Aunt Vera. It was from her home that into hospital where he died in February 1964. His estate amounted to £9300 – enough to buy three good sized houses at the time. Much of this was held in stocks and shares and he seems to have been an astute investor. Wherever he had been and whatever he had done since leaving Birkenhead, he had been quite successful financially. Half his estate was used to provide an income, for life, for his wife Gertrude. The remaining half was equally divided between his children with Arnold’s share, (as he was deceased), divided equally by his children, Brian, Derek and June.
Gertrude lived at her small house ‘Firwood’ in Rhewl, North Wales, from at least mid 1937 until her death in 1968. After her death, the original half of Vincent’s estate was again divided equally as before. There are no graves for either Vincent or Gertrude Christian as both were cremated after death.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vincent Francis Christian
Description
An account of the resource
A biography of Vincent, Arnold's father.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Brighton
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man
England--New Brighton (Wirral)
Wales
England--Sussex
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Personal research
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two printed sheets
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SChristianAL29160v10018-0001, SChristianAL29160v10018-0002
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Pending text-based transcription. Under review
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Tricia Marshall
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1881/36282/SChristianAL29160v10005-0001.1.jpg
bafa44abd9bdc8577f521ac92b6402a3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1881/36282/SChristianAL29160v10005-0002.1.jpg
5214838e98a691805e89578fd922dbab
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1881/36282/SChristianAL29160v10005-0003.1.jpg
89e83670129bd78b506027cd2c60b74d
Dublin Core
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Title
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Christian, Arnold Louis
A L Christian
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Christian, AL
Description
An account of the resource
93 items. The collection concerns Wing Commander <span>Arnold Louis</span> <span>Christian </span>(1906 - 1941, 29160 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents and photographs. He flew operation as a pilot with 105 Squadron and was killed 8 May 1941.<br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Steven Christian and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />Additional information on <span>Arnold Louis</span> <span>Christian</span> is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/204958/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Transcribed document
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INTRODUCTION
The idea to put together the ‘Christian’ family history first took shape around 1992 when Diana Pick, my stepmother-in-law on a visit home to the UK from New Zealand, made the suggestion that it could prove an interesting undertaking. I think her curiosity was piqued by my telling her the family story of possible French descent and, like many other people, her assumption that in some way we were connected to Fletcher Christian of Mutiny on the Bounty fame. A keen amateur genealogist herself, she offered to research through the Morman [sic]church records she used when she got back to New Zealand. No on-line research in those days.
The story of a possible French connection in the Christian family was first told to me by grannie. (As a point of reference, grannie is Catherine Allan Christian, and grandpa is her husband Arnold Louis Christian. I will mention them as grannie and grandpa throughout any narrative). Grannie told me that the handed down story suggested that the Christians had French blood through an ancestor who had been, it was believed, a second secretary at the British embassy in Paris sometime in the C19th, and had married a French women [sic] but no-one knew who, where or when. This was the explanation for why the name Francis and Frances often seemed to appear as Christian family names ie; grandpa’s sister Vera had the middle name Frances, their brother Norman, father Vincent and Uncle Victor had all had Francis as a middle name and, as it turned out, that was their grandfather’s anglicised name too.
Grannie also told how her mother-in-law, Gertrude Louisa Christian, (nee Barley), would claim that ‘we are descended from Italian and French royalty!’ Quite who she meant by ‘we’ wasn’t clear – was it we the Christians, (which wouldn’t apply to her), or was she referring to the Barley’s from she descended?
I first began to wonder if there was some validity to the tales when I stayed for a few days as an adult visitor with Gt. Aunt Vera whose home in North Wales stood on the farm owned by her daughter Audrey. On the dining room mantelpiece stood two brass ornaments. One of these was a small table bell but in the form of a women [sic] wearing a crinoline dress, (the bell), and around the base of which was the French inscription ‘Vive la empress’. The second ornament was the uniformed figure of a man with the inscription “Vive le Emperor’. (I later found out that these were of the French Emperor Napoleon III (the last French monarch – died 1873 and his wife the Empress Eugenie). I asked Aunt Vera where these had come from and she said her parents. She also mentioned French blood but wasn’t sure from where precisely. The ornaments were still there on subsequent visits I made during the time I was stationed in the RAF at Valley, Anglesey in the mid 1970’s.
Much of the family ‘knowledge’ that I have, such as it is, I have by word of mouth from grannie which also includes here own Cordner and Barrass families, as well as the Barleys who were grandpa’s maternal antecedents. The Povey’s – other than grandpa’s grandmother, Emma, who had this surname before her marriage to James Barley – did not enter the picture until much later in the research.
In addition to receiving much information from the endless questions I asked of grannie over the years, both as a child and as an adult, I had the opportunity on some occasions to gain information from others in the family. While at school I used to write quite regularly to my Great, Great Aunt Molly, (originally a Cordner), and as mentioned earlier visited Gt Aunt Vera & Cousin Audrey a number of times. Through Audrey I was able to write to grandpa’s younger brother Norman, who Gilly and I subsequently visited once at his home in Leeds. Second to grannie, Audrey was a big source of information, albeit sketchy, and of photographs. The wedding photographs here of grannie and grandpa’s wedding came from Aunt Vera’s album, (Audrey was the bridesmaid). Many years later grannie also put me in touch with her niece, Christine Molly, (nee Cordner), who was researching the Cordner & Barrass families. We have met a few times and now correspond quite regularly. It is Christine we have to thank for the Cordner and Barrass family trees. As part of my research, inspired by Diana Pick, Gilly and I spent a few days with Audrey in 1994. Here we were able to see a large album of postcards, sent to and from the family. The postcards mainly covered the first three decades of the C20th, and gave vital clues as to names, addresses and dates of residence – all by postmarks. Additionally, Audrey showed us around the local area – Ruthin & Birkenhead – where grandpa grew up. This included Ruthin school where he and brother Norman were educated, the public houses run by his mother Gertrude and possibly his father Vincent too, and
[page break]
the home in Birkenhead – 4 Devonshire Road – from where the family ran the Birkenhead Motor Works and later Bolton’s Grey Cabs.
As previously mentioned, the most informative source of information at the personal level was grannie. As children we often lived within an hour or two of her home in Oxford and, consequently, we saw quite a lot of grannie and auntie June. Later, and now in the RAF myself, I was fortunate to have two consecutive postings over an eight year period within two hours of grannie, and a further three year posting at only forty five minutes away and was able to make many visits to her.
As a young boy I had been fascinated by grandpa’s RAF story and, as usual, always wanting to hear it again. Grannie was bombarded with many questions but never resented them. I think she knew the interest was deep and genuine and she seemed happy to answer them. Later, when I was an older child, she went through the photographs she had of her and grandpa’s life and his RAF days – telling me of the stories and events that surrounded them.
As a fifteen year old schoolboy I spent a few days with grannie during a half-term and remember a long discussion we had. I asked her many questions, mainly about grandpa, the war years and life afterwards which may have brought back many memories for her, some of which may have been upsetting. However, she did not seem to be so and was happy, as always, to answer those questions.
When beginning the research into the Christian family the first decision was where to start. The obvious place was with grandpa’s father, Vincent Francis, (known as Pom-Pom within the family although the reason remains a mystery), but even here there was little to go on. No-one seemed to know who is [sic] parents had been or where they had lived, or their occupation. It appears that from the 1930’s onwards, and once his children had reached adulthood, Vincent lived apart – although in occasional contact – from his family. From this point knowledge of his movements and employments is particularly sparse. Grannie told me that from the time she married grandpa in 1932 until Vincent’s death in 1964, she had only met him on about four occasions. She did say that he was always a smartly dressed, well-spoken and upright gentleman, but one not much given to talking. By 1994 he, his wife Gertrude and two of his children, Vera and grandpa, were dead. Norman’s whereabouts, or if even alive were not known by grannie although she did know that Vincent had been cared for, towards and at the end of his life, by his daughter Vera, and although she too was now dead her daughter Audrey was the most likely source for any further information. This was when Gilly & went to see Audrey and were able to see & make notes from the postcards she held and previously mentioned. Many of these – the major form of short communication in the early C20th – were written by Vincent when on his travels as a commercial traveler. [sic] However, even Audrey was unable to throw much light onto Vincent’s life or earlier family, but she knew that his son Norman was still alive and living in Leeds. It was from Audrey that we received his address and was subsequently able to write and visit him. In compiling this ‘history’, I have constantly been amazed at how little closely related individuals knew of each other, but then I am judging it from the perspective of a modern world with many varied and instant communication methods. In fairness, in the more deferential, perhaps respectful and less connected world that existed before WW2, privacy was expected and less exposed. Aunty June readily admits that I have more information about her father, grandpa Arnold, than she does herself, and this was also true of my father Brian, and yet the source of my information was their mother, grannie! We were still no further forward with where Vincent came from and a search at the National Records Office yielded nothing further. In 1995 I corresponded with Gt. Uncle Norman but little of substance came of these letters, (in this archive). I followed this up with a visit to Norman, the first and last time I ever met him, but his knowledge of Vincent was as sketchy as the rest and so nothing new was revealed.
In the meantime, Diana Pick in New Zealand was plodding away on my behalf with searches where possible and every so often would write with information which she felt could be a ‘lead’. Usually though, while one or two names might fit, the dates and locations wouldn’t, or vice versa, and the lead would have to be discarded. In 2004 Diana telephone to say that she thought she had finally found Vincent’s family, and that they came from Switzerland. My father Brian was quite taken with the idea of being of Swiss descent, but had said previously that he would rather not be of French or Italian extraction. Needless to say, the Swiss connection when the papers finally arrived proved to be another blind alley. In 2006 not long after Brian’s death, Diana again telephoned to say that this time she really had found Vincent’s parents & siblings, and that the evidence was incontrovertible. And so, upon arrival, it proved to be. There was Vincent’s birth & marriage certificates, and those for each of his siblings bar one. The dates, locations and names all matched the known but patchy information already held. The documentation itself gave two further steps forward the first of which was more information that could be explored – previously unknown names, addresses, occupations etc from birth or
[page break]
marriage certificates, but the second was the proof that there was French ancestry – Vincent’s mother was French, (Eualalia Bons), Vincent was half French! More than that, his father was Italian, (Francesco Cristini). There it was on the paper, Brian’s jesting dread, he was of both French and Italian descent, and relatively closely so too. The claims of Gertrude proved to be founded, in fact. Something I have learned, at that point and since, is that usually family stories have some basis in truth – it’s just that with the passing between generations they become distorted.
It is interesting to note from the documents available that the names Cristini and Christian were interchanged before they finally settled into the anglicised version of Christian. As the family of Francesco and Eulalia became more integrated into British life and had their children it will have become more necessary that the name reflected the English version, particularly perhaps for Vincent and his older brother Victor, who would have to enter the wider society of employment after school and would therefore probably find it much easier to be a Christian than a Cristini. Interestingly, their sister Beatrice seems to have retained Cristini right through to her marriage and maybe that was the standard of the time – it would have been less important for a girl to have an anglicised name since she was far more likely to go from the home of her parents to her new husband’s home. First names too became anglicised, Francesco becoming Francis – another mystery solved – why so many holders of the name Francis or Frances in the family!
Having ‘found’ Vincent in verifiable documentation, we also found his father so what of Francesco or Francis? It is believed from the documentation held that he and Eulalia probably arrived in England around 1868/69. In the 1881 census, both he and Eulalia were shown as being born in C1845 which would put them in their early twenties. From the death certificate of their second child, Alfred, Francis’ profession was ‘book-keeper.’ As we follow him through subsequent births and marriages we see that he progresses to ‘teacher of languages’ and ‘professor of languages’. Italy, at the time of Francis’ birth was not a state as Britain was, but comprised of small principalities and dukedoms which had a huge agricultural peasant base. One therefore wonders at his education and societal level. He must have been numerate to be able to book keep, and literate too. He could obviously speak, (and teach), more than one language. He obviously also travelled from Italy, through France at least, to England and married along the way. To do this, and to have the level of education he appeared to have, assumes that he came from a reasonably affluent family. Francis died sometime between the marriage of his daughter in 1902 and of his eldest son, Victor, in 1906. Where he was living at the time is, as yet, un-researched. Of his wife, Eulalia, nothing beyond the probable year of birth, her nationality and her maiden name of Bons, is known or researched. She had the ability though to make the registration in 1872 of the death of her son Alfred.
The real ‘Christian’ family history therefore begins, most significantly, with the children of Francis and Eulalia and for me, my siblings and cousins, with their fourth child and second son, our Great Grandfather, Vincent Francis Christian – born Cristini.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Christian Family History Introduction
Description
An account of the resource
A biography of the Christian family written by Arnold's grandson. There appears to be a connection to France, perhaps to Italian and French royalty. Later research suggested a Swiss connection but after research the Italian and French links were confirmed.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Personal research
Format
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Three printed sheets
Identifier
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SChristianAL29160v10005-0001, SChristianAL29160v10005-0002, SChristianAL29160v10005-0003
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Birkenhead
England--Leeds
England--Oxford
New Zealand
Wales
England--Yorkshire
England--Lancashire
England--Oxfordshire
Conforms To
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Pending text-based transcription. Under review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1561/34804/SRAFIngham19410620v070001-Audio.2.mp3
1cdda487d490705f1871c23fb467186a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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RAF Ingham Heritage Group
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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RAF Ingham
Description
An account of the resource
25 items in six collections. The collection concerns RAF Ingham and contains interviews photographs and documents concerning:
Andrzej Jeziorski - Pilot 304 Squadron
Arthur Hydes - Boy in Ingham
Brian Llewellyn -ATC
Jan Black - Rear Gunner 300 Squadron
Lech Gierak - Armourer 303 Squadron
Marion Clarke - MT Driver RAF Ingham
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak - Armourer
Stanislaw Jozefiak - Air Ops 304 Squadron - Pilot on Spitfires
Wanda Szuwalska - Admin 300 Squadron Faldingworth
Zosia Kowalska - Cook RAF Ingham
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by the RAF Ingham Heritage Group and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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[Other]: Make a start.
Int: Right, I’ll just, I will leave it on because this is the rough cut. Obviously what we’ll do is, just give you a copy, on a CD, of the whole recording. And then obviously when we come to do a production side of it, we’ll cut out the bits that are relevant towards the Heritage Centre but we’ll give you a copy for your family, or a couple of copies if you’d like that.
[Other]: That’ll be lovely dad!
Int: We’ll just leave the camera rolling. If at any time you want to have a break, or you need to use the toilet, or you would like a drink, if we just say and we can stop, because it won’t matter on the film: we’ll just keep it rolling. Because sometimes, we found in the past, that when we’ve interviewed some of the veterans, they’ll say could I just stop now for a cup of water, glass of water or something, so we switch it off, and that’s when some of the very interesting little pieces of information come out, when they’re just chatting, so sometimes it’s worth leaving it on. I did a very, very quick bit of research into you before I came here, so I know a little [emphasis] bit about you, and it is only a very small amount, because I didn’t realise that you were an armourer, um, I probably should have done, and obviously although you’re known as Michael, or Michael now, obviously you had your Polish first name which, would you like to pronounce it for me?
MM: [Phonetically] Michislov. [Laughter]
Int: Thank you. My pronunciation would be very embarrassing to you.
[Other]: I can’t pronounce it, can’t spell it, let alone!
Int: M I E C H Z Y S L A W. Yes.
[Other]: Miecyzslaw, something like that.
Int: How do you pronounce your surname, your family name?
MM: [Phonetically] Marishtack.
Int: Marishtick.
[Other]: [Phonetically] Marishtak. Marishtak, yes.
MM: There, you see I was in Gaza at that time, that was, Rommel was, British was worried about that, taking over Suez Canal and I wasn’t in the Air Force yet, but was about hundred fifty Polish boys, we supposed to learn how to repair the tanks, you know, but that Australian say look, its take lot of time to learn, I’m going to teach you how to drive and we going to repair and we going on the desert and test them they okay, on the front because there was hurry, you know, be ready before Rommel attacks the Suez, so I got for that, medals.
Int: And how old were you at that time then, in the desert?
MM: I was very young, well [pause] about seventeen I think, seventeen.
Int: And were you part of the Polish Air Force or the Polish Army at that time?
MM: The Army.
Int: Part of the Polish Army.
MM: At Gaza, yes. Because that was Gaza, was on the Egyptian Palestinian border, that time was, [cough] well, under British rule in Palestine, you know that. I was in Palestine as well.
Int: And you’ve obviously mentioned that you were trained in the Polish Air Force to be an armourer. When you were in the Polish Army, in Palestine, did you also deal with the shells and the bullet side of things as an armourer, or not?
MM: No. You see after that I was removed, victory was Alamein, and they moved to Egypt, and Egypt er, that was quite lot of boys and was about, volunteers about six hundred fifty, because Polish was, more to, Polish aid for us in England. So there, you know, the examination, you know, doctor, you know, everything was, so six hundred, six hundred forty five, is only sixty five been accepted, and from that time I joined the, to the Polish Air Force.
Int: Why did you decide that you wanted to apply to join the Polish Air Force? What was the reasons behind that do you think?
MM: Well because Polish, they came round to Egypt and they want some replacement in England for the younger people, you know.
Int: I was just wondering why you chose, did they, was there any, was there an incentive?
MM: I didn’t choose that.
Int: You didn’t choose, oh, okay.
MM: They just said volunteers you see! [Laugh] So this stay in Egypt and from Egypt we travelled by Royal Britannia ship round Africa because we going to go through that where U-boat was, German U-boat, and round the Capetown. We stopped in Capetown for about three days and because not only Polish but was Yugoslavian, all different nationalities, Greeks, and they all different, and we arrived to Freetown, and Freetown to Liverpool. And from Liverpool came to Halton.
Int: What, what time of year did you arrive in Liverpool? Was it the summer, or the winter, or?
MM: That wasn’t winter, no, no, no, that was er, [pause] which date was that, approximately.
Int: I’m just thinking that having been in Palestine, and having been in in Egypt, and then even South Africa, coming to Britain, and Liverpool, must have been probably very cold, very wet.
MM: No, no, no, that was June or July, something like that, that time, we arrive to England. That was in, practically summer, was that time.
Int: What was your, can you remember your first impressions when you landed in Liverpool, in England?
MM: Balloons [laugh]. Yeah, there were balloons everywhere.
Int: Oh, the barrage balloons. Yes, yeah. And then you went, you said you went to Halton.
MM: Halton, yes.
Int: For your training. Can you tell me -
MM: We travelled during the night, I don’t know why, we actually arrived early and having travelled through the night, and I seem to remember they stop us in Crewe; they give us some cup of tea and sandwiches. [Laugh]
Int: That was nice, and was it in the back of a lorry then, that you travelled?
MM: No, no, it was train.
Int: Oh, on a train, right.
MM: Yes. I think it was Crewe which er, and we arrive very late in Halton.
Int: And what are your memories of Halton, as a training?
MM: Oh, they was very good, you know, because most of the people was coming from the 303 Squadron, from Northolt, for, to Halton, for training. Some of them depends what, some of them just gunnery, you know, three months training and you’re off you know. But you know, was very, very, training was very, very good, you know, was excellent, you know, we got everything. Even remember the Russian er, [indecipherable] Bureau like came round to visit Halton and what happened they, the Brit, they shut us completely! [Laugh]
Int: They just, they wouldn’t talk to you, they just ignored you completely.
MM: Yes. They said no, no, put in school and then they shut us, the workshop up is completely: all Poles.
Int: Shut away. And how long after you arrived, did you hand over your Army uniform and then you got the blue, the blue uniform for the Air Force?
MM: Oh yes. When we arrived to Halton I got given blue uniform.
Int: Blue uniform. Then you were in the Air Force, the Polish Air Force.
MM: Yeah. That’s right.
Int: And can you remember the insignia and the badges you wore at all? Were they RAF ones or were they Polish Air Force?
MM: Polish Air Force.
Int: Polish Air Force. How long, roughly how long did you stay at Halton for, to do your training?
MM: Oh, training for, because the, I was for training this time four years, for training.
Int: Four years at Halton!
MM: Because you know, we supposed to go to Poland, after the war and you know, but they, Polish Government, say you must let every arms they got in Britain, you know, like rockets and everything, you know, and at the time was top secret, you know.
Int: So, when your training had finished, at Halton, which RAF station did you go to after Halton?
MM: Hah, Lincolnshire.
Int: Lincolnshire. Can you remember the name of the station?
MM: Cammeringham. Cammeringham.
Int: At Cammeringham, you were actually at Cammeringham were you? Right. So that would have been, it changed its name from RAF Ingham to Cammeringham in November 1944, so if you knew it as Cammeringham, you must have gone there from November ‘44 onwards at some point. So, if you haven’t already got them we can get hold of your service records – you’ve got them have you? No. We can get your service records from Northolt. There’s a lady called Margaret Goddard.
MM: Oh yeah, I know her, yeah.
Int: And she can find your records, which will show the dates you went to each station, which is good for you, and for your family.
MM: I remember there used to be NAAFI canteen on that river in Lincolnshire.
Int: In Lincolnshire. NAAFI, NAAFI was.
Int: Was a NAAFI canteen in the middle of Lincoln was there?
MM: Yes, I can remember the river was you know.
Int: In the middle of Lincoln, there is a -
MM: Yeah. Not far from the Cathedral, you know.
Int: Yes, yes I know the one you mean. There’s a big, large, well they call it a pond, but it’s called Brayford, Brayford Pond, with all the barges.
MM: That’s right, that was NAAFI.
Int: Oh right, okay. What, can you remember much about Cammeringham, RAF Cammeringham? Just to help your memory, the airfield was on the top of the hill and the Station Headquarters was down in the village of Ingham. Does that ring a bell at all?
MM: Well you see at that time they knew that we never go back to Poland and a lot of people try to register, go to Argentina, to United States, you know, Canada.
Int: Oh, as part of the Polish Resettlement Act, yes, but you decided to stay at Cammeringham for a while.
MM: Actually, I was going to [chuckle] Argentina!
Int: Right, okay.
MM: But I met one chap, he was from Argentina, he was in Polish Army, and he said never go to Argentina!
Int: And why was that then?
MM: Because is, you got problems over there and he say I wouldn’t advise you to go to Argentina. So I’ve still got the papers, you know!
Int: That you could have decided to go there, but instead you stayed in England.
MM: Yes.
Int: And when you were at Cammeringham did you do any of your armourer jobs, was that with loading the machine guns or were you an armourer that dealt with the bombs?
MM: I had a, that was, from Cammeringham and was posted to 48MU, in Wrexham.
Int: Okay. Right.
MM: That was, I used to, quite lot of, because guns and machine guns, you know, in Wrexham. You know, Holyhead, if you go that way.
Int: So in Wrexham it was a big store for machine guns?
MM: RAF station!
Int: Oh, it was an RAF station was it, at Wrexham, right, okay. Was your job to maintain them or was it more for storage?
MM: Sort out, you know, quite a lot of them used to go to the, check them in the temperature and everything, you know.
Int: So did that include dismantling, taking machine guns to bits, and refurbish them, change the barrels and things?
MM: From the, yeah.
Int: Right. So is that a job that you could do with your eyes closed, when, at the time, you became very skilled at that.
MM: Well, yeah.
Int: Yeah. And did you get a chance to fire any of the guns on the practice ranges at all, or not? Or were you just purely putting the guns together?
MM: Not in the air.
Int: Was that a bit, was that a good job? Was it a boring job?
MM: Oh, you know. Well you know, somebody has to do it!
Int: Somebody has to do it. Before you went to Wrexham, if we could just go back one step to when you were at Cammeringham, what did you actually do at Cammeringham?
MM: Actually I was doing, there were no jobs, everybody was thinking what I’m going to do, you know.
Int: Right, so you were still in the Polish Air Force, but there wasn’t a job for you at the time? So you spent all [emphasis] of that time training and then you got to Cammeringham and there was no job for you.
MM: Well that was, you know, that was probably closed that station, you were just only waiting for the different people going different countries, you know.
Int: But there was a lot of Polish airmen at Cammeringham at the time, yes?
MM: Yes. Some of them they went back to Poland, you know, but.
Int: It’s not a good story, no. I’ve heard several accounts from people where they went, [beep] especially if they’d been in the Polish Air Force, and then they were arrested by the Soviets, and the Russians, and some were executed, which is er, just for being in the Polish Air Force. A lot of your colleagues were at Faldingworth, which was just about five miles down the road, a lot of them, and the Polish 300 Squadron were there. So you went to Wrexham and you did the 48MU job at Wrexham, how long did you stay at Wrexham, can you remember?
MM: [Pause] No, I said, I was, because my station was er, in Framlingham.
Int: Framlingham. Yes. I’ve heard of it, I’ve heard of Framlingham, right.
MM: There was er, and I was only been attachment to the 48MU’s just only, you know, so I wrote the letter to them: can you call me back to, on my station. So you know, so they, yeah, I went back and say look, now you have to go to London and you have to look for a job.
Int: And that was, so that was the end of your Polish Air Force career.
MM: Yeah. And I stay in South Kensington, and for looking for the job because only job they was offering us is coal mine, you know. [Laugh]
Int: Or engineering? Did they offer you engineering?
MM: Engineering? No, no chance. No chance.
Int: No? So what kind of job did you get in the end then? What was your first job, being a civilian after the war?
MM: They told me you to go to the coal mine, I said no, I never go to coal mine. [Laugh] But all, so they decided to last, and I was from National Health making glasses. Spectacles glasses.
Int: Okay, right, okay, that was here in London was it?
MM: Yes, in London yes, in Camden Passage, in Islington. So I said all right, I’ll go that, but I wouldn’t go to the coal mine. [Laugh]
Int: And when did you meet your wife?
MM: [Cough] Oh, that was [muttering] 19, about 1960 [pause], 1960.
Int: And was she Polish or was she English?
MM: She’s Polish.
Int: She was Polish. And had she been a WAAF during the, a Polish WAAF during the years?
MM: No, no, no. She wasn’t, no.
Int: She’d just come across from Poland, okay. I notice looking at your medals you have the, is it the Tute Militaire? The very first one that you have here. Can you tell me a little bit about how you were awarded that, that medal?
MM: This?
Int: No, the very first one, this one here.
MM: Oh, that, no, no.
Int: This one there.
MM: That was Freedom for Polish, Freedom.
Int: Oh, that’s the Polish Freedom one is it? Right, okay. So that was awarded in about -
MM: At the Embassy.
Int: At 1990, or ’91 when Poland got its freedom.
MM: I have somewhere, upstairs, the letters, that was yes, was in the Ambassy, in London.
Int: Going back to your time in the Polish Air Force again, do you have any funny stories, any funny things, because with your fellow kind of airmen, the Polish airmen, you must have done some funny things then.
MM: Well it was funny stories, you know because when it was in Halton you were only allowed to go out for [cough] eleven, you know, well not twelve o’clock, yeah, before twelve you must be.
Int: You must be back before midnight, yes.
MM: But some of them was climbing through the windows! [Laughter]
Int: And did they get caught, or not?
MM: Yeah, what happened, and the sergeant was checking every bed, and somebody was going to each bed and was like saying yes, he’s in, he’s in, but he’s out!
Int: And then he’s sneaking back to his own bed, good. When you were there, you obviously had the big dormitories, the barrack rooms where you all slept in, what was the food like? Was the food good at Halton? Because it was English food I presume, not Polish food.
MM: That was the, actually, no, it was good food there, yeah, sausages, you know.
Int: Plenty of food, plenty of food?
MM: Yeah. And usually that was prisoner of war working in the cookhouse.
Int: What, German prisoners of war or Italian?
MM: Italians.
Int: Italians. That could be a good thing if you like Italian food!
MM: And they was free to go to the cinema, everywhere!
Int: Really!
MM: Yeah!
Int: But you couldn’t go out after twelve o’clock at night! Huh. That’s very strange, isn’t it. Yeah.
MM: And they used to sell the jewellery because, well, they had some watches and the you know, they was free, they didn’t want to go back to, escape to Germany.
Int: They were happy to stay in England then.
MM: Stay. Otherwise they probably go to Russian Front, you know. Yes, they got.
Int: If we can go all the way back to the beginning of the story, are you okay, do you want a break, are you okay?
MM: It’s all right, yes.
Int: Going back to talking about Palestine and the time you were In the desert with Rommel, and fighting Rommel, and you were saying you were allowed you to drive, what was your job, what kind of job did you do?
MM: Well I was testing the tanks.
Int: You were testing the tanks?
MM: On the desert, because that Bill, they repair, because they, mechanics you know, to learn how to repair the tanks was take time, he said look, we going to repair, I teach you how to drive, on the desert, and that’s you know.
Int: So as well as repairing the tanks then, as a mechanic, you also did, you had to go and test drive them as well?
MM: No, I didn’t repair, I only just test.
Int: Oh, you were only doing the test driving then. And was that fun? Especially as you were young. Driving tanks round the desert?
MM: Oh yes! And that chap, after the, Alamein, he was going, his name was Bill, and he’s Australian, and he would just say, I got nothing else to give you, he just cut his button from his coat and give it to me. So I kept that all the time.
Int: Oh! Did Bill make it through the war?
MM: I don’t know what happened, I don’t know, might have been killed, I don’t know. But what happened, in a Polish club in London, I met there, she was Wing Commander from the Australian Embassy, and I told her I got the button which is that Bill give me, and oh, was probably my grandad, so I don’t know. What regiment he was? But I didn’t ask him!
Int: But he was in Palestine at that time then was he? Yes?
MM: And I give it to her and she says she’s going to find out, you know, the name of that is.
Int: That sounds like a needle in a haystack, but you never know, you never know. So do you attend a lot of the Polish events that happen in London, at the Social Club at Hammersmith?
MM: Yeah, we go so often. Usually, we usually have the dinners once a month, you know.
Int: Well I mean, obviously, I met you, you might remember, in September, at the Polish Memorial, Northolt. It’s great to chat with you, what I was going to do now was just, I was gonna have a rest, just in case you wanted a cup of tea or something, we can talk a little more. Cause I know sometimes it’s, you’re thinking back and your mouth can get very dry, can’t it, especially when we’re just talking and it’s a thing. So I’ll leave the camera on, but if you’re happy, I don’t know whether you’d like a drink of water or a cup of tea or coffee?
MM: No, that’s all right, no.
[Other]: Dad, but where were you when the war finished? That’s the bit I don’t get.
Int: Right. Were you at Framlington?
[Other]: Where were you actually, when the actual physically the war finished?
Int: When it was VE Day kind of thing?
[Other]: Where was he?
MM: [Pause] 1945.
Int: Where were you actually, where were you stationed, at that time, when it was VE Day? Can you remember which station you were on?
MM: 1945, which station, I probably was still in Halton.
Int: Did they not have big celebrations?
MM: No. Because they didn’t invite for the -
Int: For the Polish.
MM: For Britain.
Int: To go to London, did you have them, if you were at Halton, or Wrexham, or even Cammeringham, wherever you were at, when it was VE Day, did they have a party on the station?
MM: Wrexham, we only had one celebration then was when Prince Charlie was born, 1948, and we had a barrel of beer, we had drunk that, you know, on his birthday.
Int: So you were still in the Polish Air Force then, in 1948, so that must have been almost the last year, because most of the Polish Air Force, from what I’m led to understand, obviously straight after the war, after VE Day, along with the problems where they wouldn’t let the Polish parade through London because of the Yalta Agreement.
MM: That’s right.
Int: With Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill, and I know that’s why they had the Resettlement Act and they had to absorb the Polish Air Force into the Royal Air Force properly, just so Stalin couldn’t get -
MM: We had the contract two years, Polish Resettlement Course.
Int: And I think it was 1948 was the last, when the last Polish squadron was disbanded, so that probably ties all of that in. It would be interesting, you know, if your daughter Joanne’s able to, on your behalf, to get the, your service records from Margaret, or a copy of them.
[Other]: Yeah, I can do that.
Int: Cause then it’ll show -
MM: I know her. Yes, I’ll go and see her in.
Int: She’ll be able to photocopy them and then give you a copy and at least you’ll be able to read all the dates on, and if it’s, I think if it’s very similar to the RAF’s one, it’s just a piece of almost brown card, two sides, which shows all of your, all the stations you were at and any courses you did, and even things like when you were on the sick or on leave, it’s all on one card that they did at the time. It’s all handwritten.
[Other]: Cause I’m just a bit confused here dad, so you went from Halton to Lincolnshire and then Wrexham, yeah.
Int: Yes.
[Other]: And then you went to London.
MM: To London.
[Other]: What year?
MM: I came to London to look for job.
[Other]: What year? Cause you were saying you were under the RAF until 1948.
MM: That was Polish Resettlement Course.
[Other]: So I’m just, and I just. It’s all right, I’m getting there. A bit confused.
Int: So, if we get things in the right order: you went to Halton, and then from Halton you went to Cammeringham did you, or did you go to Wrexham first, after Halton?
[Other]: Cammeringham.
MM: No, Cammeringham.
Int: Cammeringham.
MM: And from Cammeringham I went to Wrexham.
Int: To Wrexham, and then to Fram –
MM: Framlingham.
Int: Framlingham or Framlington? I’ll have to check exactly where that is. And then from Framlington that was it: were out of the Polish Air Force then?
MM: Sent us to London for.
Int: To find a job.
MM: That’s right.
[Other]: When they sent you to London, did you stay in an RAF base, or no? Were you private dwellings?
Int: Was it a private house, or was it still in barracks in London?
MM: No, no, in London that was hostel, South Kensington, was houses was probably very expensive, London houses. That was big hostel over that square, that was square, I would call it square.
Int: Straight after the war.
[Other]: So dad, where were you when you, when the announcement of the Second World War was over? When Churchill said, we are not at war any more, where were you? [Polish]
MM: I said I was still in Halton.
Int: You were still in Halton.
MM: In 1945.
Int: So 1945 you were in Halton. Then you moved to Cammeringham in ’46 because I mean Cammeringham was one of the Polish Resettlement Units. And Dunholme Lodge.
MM: That’s right, and they posted us to Wrexham.
Int: It was still under the kind of the Air Ministry’s control.
[Other]: Umbrella.
Int: While they did some training and they did, there was quite a few training: carpentry, electrical. They did all the courses there so they just used it as an RAF station but it was more of a training camp for training purposes.
MM: That’s right.
Int: And then obviously the MUs, which are the Maintenance Units but they normally store, big store camps, so obviously Wrexham was a big store camp where all the machine guns were coming back and they were being -
MM: From there the Wellingtons and all that, big er -
[Other]: So really, until the war finished you were based?
MM: At Halton.
[Other]: Until 1945 and then after that the Resettlement Act came in and by 1948 you were discharged to civilian life. Right, I’ve got that now. Okay. But when the Second World War finished, what happened, because that was a big news! So was there no celebration? Do you remember what you were doing when you found out the war was ended. I mean.
MM: I was still at Halton.
Int: You were still at Halton.
[Other]: But what were you doing?
MM: There still was training.
[Other]: [Polish]
Int: [Beep] Did they have a party perhaps, a big party at Halton, that day?
MM: At Halton, even, because what’s his name, Bevan, and he asked, give us a letter and give us, every members of the Polish er, boys, been given, to go to Poland or, or were you going to join the Polish Resettlement Course.
Int: Yes. Because of the shortage of jobs, he was the Trade Union, Bevan was the Trade Union man, wasn’t he, and they set the Trade Unions up, and don’t get me wrong but his point of view was, he didn’t want the Poles in Britain.
MM: Britain, no. That’s right.
Int: And that’s why, I think that’s why they only offered the Polish military –
MM: Coal mine.
Int: Ex military the coal mine, and some of them got into the steel works, the foundries, almost the jobs that nobody else wanted to do, so it was very restrictive, and obviously because the Trade Unions came in straight after the war, that’s when they were created, and that was very much in the National Health Service and everything else, but that’s when they said jobs for the Britons, you know, it was almost like, Churchill was Conservative, although he led the Coalition through the war years then he was, straight after the war he was kicked out and the Labour government came in and that’s how the Trade Unions came about, and that’s why, the Agreement was obviously made at quite a high ministerial level to have the Polish Resettlement Act.
MM: That’s right.
Int: Of 1947 I think it was, to protect the Polish servicemen and women that wanted to stay in the UK, or it allowed them to go to the Empire countries, Canada, even America although that’s not an Empire country, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and - .
MM: All different countries.
Int: Yes, yes.
[Other]: But Dad, you misunderstand. I’m going to say it in Polish. [Polish]
MM: In Halton.
[Other]: [Polish]
MM: I can’t remember that.
Int: No.
[Other]: I was asking him what he was, the moment he found out when the Second World War finished. I remember when Diana died. I can tell you exactly what I was doing.
Int: Yes.
MM: We didn’t celebrate because was Yalta.
Int: Yes, because of Yalta a few weeks before this, and that meant you’d lost Poland.
MM: We didn’t celebrate.
[Other]: I see, okay, that’s a different side.
Int: That’s probably why, yes because I mean Yalta was really more Roosevelt and Stalin; Churchill was just a puppet.
MM: Puppet, yes.
[Other]: That explains that, yeah.
Int: He was part of the three but he had to go along with what the two big powerbrokers wanted and they carved up Europe at Yalta and Poland unfortunately was the one that suffered because it got kind of.
MM: Roosevelt was very sick man, he was very sick, he was actually dying and Truman took it over, you know, after Roosevelt.
[Other]: But in those four years that you were based at Halton, did you witness bombings in England, you know, saw the active stuff, you know, the active service. Obviously you get the planes ready for them to go off to battle, obviously I’m guessing here.
Int: Halton being a training -
MM: Training.
Int: Was all the four years that you did at Halton, was that all training or were you an instructor then?
MM: No, all training.
Int: Just all training. And was that just [emphasis] for training to maintain the machine guns or did you do bombs, fusing up the bombs and everything?
MM: Bombs, fusing, [indecipherable] everything.
Int: So as an armourer you did all the jobs.
MM: And then rockets.
Int: And the rockets.
MM: They been before well, they was first to use the aeroplane.
Int: To fire the rockets, right at the end of the war, so you had to be trained up to do all of that.
MM: That’s right.
Int: Whilst you were at Halton were there any air raids, at night, where the sirens went off and the bombs dropped at Halton, or not?
MM: What happened, for about each, because Air Ministry was worried when start bombing London, and they move us to Cosford, RAF station Cosford.
Int: Right, okay, yes.
MM: And I assume the Air Ministry wants to move to Halton, that’s, so they move and stay at Cosford, Wolverhampton, you know that.
Int: Yes. Over in the West Midlands, yes.
MM: We stayed there, I can’t remember how many, three months or something.
Int: Three months. And did you go back to Halton afterwards?
MM: Oh yes.
Int: So was just for three months they moved you out of Halton, over to Cosford near Wolverhampton. And did your training continue there, or did you do something special?
MM: Yes, it was training.
Int: Just normal training.
MM: Yes.
Int: At Cosford. And was that quieter at Cosford? Was there not as many air raids?
MM: No, well, was different was because the Cosford was, because Halton was, had the equipment for training but Cosford, you know.
Int: Didn’t have it. So what did you do while you were there then, at Cosford?
MM: Still, you know.
Int: Yes. And was there an airfield, as in where planes aircraft could land at Cosford or was it just a factory kind of?
MM: No, I think that was only for factory.
Int: Just like a training, in a factory, yes.
[Other]: Dad, sorry, why were you trained for so long, for four years, you know, normally now it’s just for three months off you go to, I just, why were they training you for so long?
MM: Don’t forget, we stake everything [emphasis].
[Other]: Yeah, but dad, it’s war, people, they need men.
MM: But you don’t. It’s not only that, you’re training each, even, even if you write there how to kill the person, you know, all different things we didn’t know.
[Other]: But that’s -
MM: Some, if you want to kill the person, if he’s going to start writing and it’s blow up his face and it kill them.
Int: I think what Joanne was perhaps meaning was, normally training would be maybe one year, maybe a little bit, but because it was war you would imagine that they wanted to get you trained very quickly and then straight out to the airfields. The question was -
MM: But not bomb everything targets, it’s not that simple like that.
[Other]: I know dad.
MM: It takes, you know.
[Other]: But four years in a war’s a long time, in a situation of war.
MM: Yeah, don’t forget four years, it’s not only that, guns. [Pause]
[Other]: I’ve lost you.
Int: So during your time at Halton, as well as going to Cosford, did you have small amounts of time where you went off to other RAF airfields to actually practice what you’d been trained, or not?
MM: No.
Int: No, you just stayed at Halton.
MM: They was trying to get more information, you know, and instructors who came from London and give us all the guns, well guns and ammunition and material which is TNT, you know, and so how to.
Int: It sounds a little bit like your training was more experimental training.
MM: Yes, yes.
Int: Not the standard training so any new bombs or new rockets – am I going down the right road here?
MM: Yes. Everything was secret and that’s why the training was so secret.
Int: Right, we’re starting to drill down into a little bit now.
[Other]: So, did you have to sign the secret service act?
Int: The Official Secrets Act.
MM: Well, we have to, you know. The service was secret.
Int: I meant as opposed to maybe an ordinary [emphasis] Polish Air Force armourer, that did his basic training and went straight out onto a squadron.
MM: Oh yes. That’s three month course.
Int: Yes, that’s the three months course. So in fact the time at Halton, although you said it was training, was it more, it sounds like it wasn’t basic training, it was specialist training as each new munitions came out, right.
MM: Yeah.
Int: So you were seeing how things worked and to improve it, so yes, you weren’t so much a student as a team that were there to um, I don’t know how to describe it to you, I’m trying not to put words into your mouth! So were you still in like a classroom situation at Halton?
MM: Yes.
Int: Oh right. But they would bring something new in and then talk about it. And what job did they give you to do? Was it to see how to make it better, or was it just purely to take it apart and put it together? I don’t want to put words into your mouth, I’m trying to find out exactly what you did at Halton.
MM: We usually, they like electrician was coming from London he was going to teach us electrician and some extras you know, which is, came round once a week and teach us electrics; it’s not only guns, everything you must know.
[Other]: What I think we’re establishing dad, is that you were, you’re right, you were training but you were given devices, or guns, or whatever, and they wanted you to try it out, it’s more that -
Int: Test and evaluation or something.
[Other]: Yes. You had your basic training of three months, yes. Everyone does three months.
MM: No, three years.
[Other]: Yeah, but. No.
MM: Basic training that’s only came only there for, for -
Int: I think what Joanne’s trying to ask the question is, you had your basic armourer’s training, at Halton – how to be an armourer basically. Your basic bombs and bullets, but then after that at Halton, you obviously specialised, at Halton, with maybe experimental bombs or experimental rockets, and new things; anything that was new. Cause if you had an electrician that came from London specially to Halton, to talk with you and to teach you, it sounds like what you were doing was more experimental work, maybe I don’t know. Hmm. Is it possible?
[Other]: How many was there in the class at one time, dad? Ten, twenty, fifty? Do you remember? And was there only one class or was there lots of classes?
MM: [Pause] |Well we had, it’s not only that, we had mathematics and everything, turrets, and you know, you have to, how to operate turrets for machine guns for the er, prepare the aircraft to, for the pilot to fly that Spitfire and you know, it’s not simple as.
Int: I know, I fully appreciate, it’s a very complicated.
MM: We started, you see you have to, to, must, it’s not only one turret you’ve got, all you’ve got different one top and bottom.
Int: Different kinds of makes and turret, yes, certainly. It’s interesting, maybe when you get the records from Margaret, it will actually say on there and remind you, you may well have been part, although you did your basic armourer’s training at Halton, perhaps they kept you at Halton, as part of a test and evaluation section and that’s why you stayed at Halton, that’s why you didn’t go to an airfield because the people from London would bring you up, he Air Ministry, would bring new things for you to look at and along with your colleagues.
MM: Because some people, some they decided they got enough and they went for the course for three months and came as a sergeant.
Int: Oh, okay!
MM: They didn’t want to continue.
Int: They didn’t want to continue, no. So it does sound like what you were doing there was some kind of specialisation, after your basic armourers training, so. And then that’s perhaps why you went to Wrexham afterwards, although you went to Cammeringham first didn’t you. But that was at the end of the war, so maybe they just used your skills as an armourer to deal with the machine guns and everything else because you were quite. What rank were you, that’s an interesting, that will give us, help a little.
MM: Well AC1, you know, when we finished.
Int: AC1 when you finished! Crikey. That’s interesting.
MM: We didn’t, we had.
Int: Right, and that was, AC1 is just aircraftsman first class. So that’s kind of the first or the second rung on the ladder, so after four years
MM: After everybody finished at Halton, they was first class.
Int: But you said some people could come out quickly and become a sergeant.
MM: Yes, they didn’t want to continue.
Int: So they didn’t want to do the armourers job.
MM: No, no, it’s not only armourers, they didn’t want continue because was different sections at Halton.
Int: Right, okay.
MM: It was not only the armourer, there was different sections.
Int: So they could change to a different section and become sergeant very quickly.
MM: Some of them engineer and so on, so that was different.
Int: I think it’ll be, it’s certainly worth you trying to get in touch with Margaret and see if you can get your records because that might, you might suddenly find that you were doing a very important job and you didn’t quite realise how important a job it was!
[Other]: But from what I’m hearing dad, because I’ve never heard of any of this, what I’m hearing is that, my understanding is that you, your division, whatever, at Halton, you were doing some secret service stuff, you know, you were examining.
Int: Possibly, yes.
[Other]: And you were probably told [emphasis] that you were under the training umbrella but you weren’t really, I think. [Beep]
Int: There’s a little bit more to this that perhaps they didn’t even tell you [emphasis]. They just said oh, you were doing some more training.
[Other]: So you were just told training so that if anything happened to you you’d say I was just doing training. In fact you were probably doing some.
Int: Some more interesting work.
[Other]: Without you realising you were doing.
Int: Which might be part of the reason as well, that you actually went to Cosford, to do some more things, but that you would think as just ordinary. Cause Cosford now, Halton and Cosford are still in the RAF now. Halton is the -
MM: No, Cosford, the reason we went Cosford because –
Int: They were doing something at Halton.
MM: They was bombing London.
Int: Oh, they were bombing! Right, okay.
MM: And the Air Ministry, I think they was trying to move to Halton.
Int: Right, that was the reason.
MM: That’s probably the reason, they move us from.
Int: Just, yes, they just give you some space at Halton possibly.
[Other]: Where is Halton, sorry.
Int: Halton is down kind of Aylesbury kind of way, that kind of.
[Other]: So it’s quite relatively near London still.
Int: Yes, it’s part of the old Rothschild’s estate.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
[Other]: And Northolt is the London base.
Int: That’s the one, yes, right just inside the M40.
[Other]: And your connections with Northolt is that you just used to go there?
Int: No, no, it was Cosford, which is over in the West Midlands. I don’t, did you ever go to Northolt during the war years when you were in the Polish Air Force? Or not?
MM: No. Some of them they’re coming from there.
Int: It was 303 Squadron that were based there, which is the Polish fighter squadron.
MM: They was coming for training.
[Other]: To Halton?
Int: To you, to Halton.
MM: You know for the, not only for me but for different engines or -
Int: Yes. So, so from 303 Squadron, the 303 Squadron armourers and the engineering teams for the engines and things used to come to Halton.
MM: They had the best in Halton.
Int: To get refresher training on new guns or new types of engines for the aircraft.
MM: They had special camp in Halton.
Int: Within Halton, right.
[Other]: It’s all kind of secretive.
Int: It’s kind of interesting, yes.
[Other]: This is quite intriguing.
MM: Sometimes when the cookhouse was closed for some reason, we went to the Polish dinner which is 303 Squadron used to have.
Int: Oh, they had a canteen, yes.
MM: We some Polish dinner!
Int: Proper Polish food, oh good! [Laugh] It’s interesting because as I say Halton is still there now, they use it for the new recruits just in any trade that come into the RAF. So Halton is still there. Cosford is still there and they do a lot of the training. In fact I think the armourers do their training at Cosford now, which is quite funny: that’s the complete circle has moved round. So both those stations are still there. Halton hasn’t really changed much, so if you ever got a chance to go there.
[Other]: I think Dad, you’ve been there.
MM: I’ve been to Halton, yes.
Int: Cause there’s just like the road that runs through the middle and there’s the top half of the camp and the bottom half of the camp.
[Other]: Yes, he’s been there. Okay.
MM: They use to march, they was calling Polish Avenue, and when they finish, they plant some trees, and they’re great.
Int: Huge big trees now, yeah.
MM: Polish Avenue.
Int: And they called that Polish Avenue did they? I’ll have to go and look. Next time I go to Halton, I’ll look and see if they still call it Polish Avenue.
[Other]: Thank you very much. So dad -
MM: We used to have, every morning we used to march to that, you know, after breakfast, to, to training.
Int: To your training area.
MM: At our school.
Int: Was it, can you remember now where, your barracks, when you lived in the barracks at Halton, were they at the bottom of the hill or the top of the hill? Could you, you probably can’t remember.
MM: The, the barracks, you can’t miss them because Polish Avenue, you’ve got Polish Avenue and that, as you’re walking, on the right hand side, that the barracks.
Int: That was your barracks.
MM: Two barracks, there was three, two barracks was. All different.
Int: And in your room, in your barrack room, it was just all Polish Air Force was it? Or was it a mixture of RAF and Polish?
MM: No. There was just two, two big barracks.
Int: Yes, but in the actual room, where you had maybe ten or twenty beds, in the room.
MM: There were many beds!
Int: But they were all Polish in that big room were they, or the English as well as Polish?
MM: No, no, no just Polish.
Int: Just the Polish.
MM: English were different.
Int: Yes. And when it came to special occasions during the year, special Polish occasions, including Christmas, did you have a Polish church, at Halton, that you could go to? A military church?
MM: Yes, yes. When Hitler declared war on the United States and we had, I remember one Christmas which is, the American came round and we had a big dinner.
Int: On the base, and did you -
MM: Yes. No, at Halton.
Int: Oh, at Halton. And di they bring a lot of extra food, special food from America?
MM: They had, you know, all different.
Int: Chocolate and things like that, yes. And when you were at Halton did you play any sport?
MM: Oh yes, swimming, we must swim, you know, you got, it doesn’t matter which is winter or summer still had to [indecipherable] had to learn must, you know, swim.
Int: I didn’t know whether you were perhaps a sportsman and you liked to play either football, or swimming or anything.
MM: Oh yes we usually have, used to have I think every Wednesday.
Int: Every Wednesday was sports day was it.
MM: And that was Mr Brown. [Chuckle]
Int: And Mr Brown was what, he was the instructor for sport?
MM: Instructor yes, for sport, yes. Was very nice chap.
Int: What’s your, what’s the memories, maybe one or two memories that you always have when you think back about Halton, anything to do with Halton at all. What’s the memories that you have, that you remember, if you were going to tell maybe two stories about Halton, what would those stories be?
MM: Well you know, the stories is completely different stories for our Wing Commander he was, well at that time he had a car, you know, Wing Commander what’s his name? Newbury. Newbury? And as he was coming to, to the station and two chap was walking, and he say can I give you a lift, you know, it was that station, and says oh yes please. And he say don’t tell the guards I left, don’t go through there, go to the main.
Int: And that was you was it? Oh, I thought it was you that he gave a lift to, but he gave a couple of guys a lift!
MM: He did.
Int: And at weekends, did you get time off at Halton? Did you get time off to go to the local town?
MM: Oh yes, we used to go to Aylesbury dancing, you know and also do dancing in Halton as well.
Int: And when you went off for your day off, or weekend, did you have to go in uniform?
MM: Yes.
Int: So uniform everywhere then. You didn’t meet any nice ladies then, when you were dancing? [Chuckles]
MM: Well!
[Other]: It’s all right dad!
Int: Good. Well that’s lovely. The only other thing I probably, we’ve talked an awful lot about Halton and I think there’s probably some more interesting little stories to come out of Halton. Could we, if you don’t mind, could we just go back to Cammeringham, how long do you think you were at Cammeringham for? Was it literally a couple of months, or was it a year?
MM: No, didn’t stay long.
Int: You didn’t stay very long.
MM: No. That’s why we posted.
Int: Yes.
MM: To the, from Cammeringham been posted to the Wales, you know that.
Int: To Wrexham.
MM: Wrexham.
Int: To Wrexham. So, you were saying that when you were at Cammeringham there wasn’t really a job for you, there was nothing to do.
MM: Cammeringham was just only for staying people.
Int: For the Polish resettlement.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
Int: So when you were there what did you do, each day, was there anything to do at all?
MM: Not really. No. The one chap he had a nice dog, and people’s giving him, sometimes give the dog penny, goes to the NAAFI, took penny and got the cake. [Laugh]
Int: Got the cake! That was the dog brought the cake back!
MM: Oh no!
Int: No, you got the cake for the dog!
MM: No, was for the dog!
Int: Ah right, I’m with you, right, okay. Can you remember when you were at Cammeringham, did you live in the village, in the barracks in the village, or up at the airfield?
MM: The airfield and the train was stopped, like where I was in the first squadron, and the train stop, you just put the hand, and the train stopped and you just can go to Ipswich or that place. Like bus now!
Int: Yes, oh man, that’s interesting.
MM: And a lot of people just playing the cards, you know, the cards.
Int: Yes. And that’s it that was it really, you played cards all day and then had your breakfast, your dinner and your kind of evening meal so that was it: there was nothing for you to do. Most of what’s, well, there is very little left at Cammeringham, or RAF Ingham now. There are a few, just a few nissen huts, a few buildings. The rank that you were at Cammeringham, I imagine the building that we’ve, that we’re renovating, was the building you would have eaten in because it was the airmen’s mess, um, oops, is it the other side round, wait a minute, yup, there we go, [paper shuffling] it probably looks very, very different, and that’s the thing with the kitchen, there was a dining room, and another dining room the other side, and that would have been the Junior ranks mess, up on the edge of the airfield, so I imagine, and that’s what it would have looked like, a computer drawing, so I imagine that’s where you would have eaten. You can hang on to that because it’s, some of it’s in Polish and some of it‘s in English, it just tells you a little bit about what we are doing at RAF Ingham, and you can see Cammeringham there, because obviously it was Cammeringham at the end of the war. It might jog a few memories. And we’ve got the web site as well which has got more photographs on it. I think, did I give you one of our cards beforehand? Did I?
[Other]: I’ve got your card.
Int: You’ve got my card, right that’s okay. But we’ve obviously got the web site and we’ve got a twitter now but we just use it purely and simply to put pictures on there and a little bit about what we’ve done the previous week when we’re doing all the works. We don’t use it as a chat room thing.
MM: And is another one which is from Halton, Sikorsky, when Sikorsky been killed, Mrs Sikorsky, and she invite me, I don’t know, another two chaps, for dinner to her, you know.
Int: To her house.
MM: Well, it’s a big house. And actually we came to London, she was in Baker Street, she was waiting for us, and the first thing we went to Madame Tussaud, and Sikorsky was already in Madame Tussaud. From Madame Tussaud we just walk maybe ten minutes, to big house, that policeman was standing in there [chuckle] and they prepare big meal you know, yes, we stay over there. And the evening we went to the, to the Piccadilly which is what er, the place, what you call it, because that Sikorsky had two sons and they was in Navy or you know, and they took us to the Prince of Wales, on Piccadilly, that was: Prince of Wales Theatre.
Int: The theatre, yes, yes. So you went there that evening. They took you for a night out.
MM: Yeah. The Prince of Wales. I remember that.
Int: And why were chosen to go to the evening meal?
MM: I don’t know!
Int: You hadn’t done something special you were being rewarded for?
MM: No, I don’t know!
Int: And what did your officers say, best behaviour and?
MM: No! It was free over there.
Int: That was free, okay, good.
MM: Yes, that was Prince of Wales.
Int: And when you went for this night, for the meal with General Sikorsky’s wife, and the sons, were you at Halton at that point?
MM: Yes.
Int: Oh, you were still at Halton.
MM: Yes, yes, at Halton.
Int: Again, very interesting, very interesting. Mmm. It creates more questions than answers.
MM: And Sikorsky, always, he was against the, you know, the Polish Army, and the army in Warsaw. He was against that, he said you not going to win with Stalin and because well, two hundred fifty, two hundred fifty thousand people been killed, or you know; destroyed Warsaw completely. But, and he was completely against that, [beep] Sikorsky.
Int: So he didn’t want to fight in Warsaw, he wanted to just -
MM: No, because you’re not going to win.
Int: Not going to win and it would just wipe out –
MM: And they just Ignored that, his advice.
Int: What, I haven’t asked you yet, but I should ask you. Where were you born? What’s your town or city you were born in, in Poland?
MM: The, in 1939 the Lvov which is [indecipherable] there was prisoner of war, er Russian soldiers taken to, from Lvov northward up to Podlesice and their massive [emphasis] horses and prisoners, you know. My mum, she gave some bread to me and I went over and throw it because I, well was not enough food probably, and their horses, massive [emphasis] horses, maybe some of them been probably killed in Kharkiv that time and when, when, because when they first er, I think they in the country, but first, because I used to live not far from railway station, and there was Polish policemen all, that took over by Ukraine and Jewish people, because of us welcoming the, Stalin in that way.
Int: Yes. So you’ve mentioned that you’ve been back to Poland since, did you say you’ve been back to Poland since it’s been free, since Poland was free? In ‘90 or ’91?
MM: Oh, yes.
Int: In 1990 ’91 was it, ‘91 when it became a Republic again, I can’t quite remember, with Lech Walesa?
MM: After that, yeah.
Int: So you haven’t been back to your town or your city to see it? No, you haven’t, no.
[Other]: Dad’s only been back to my mum’s side. [Indecipherable]
Int: Right.
[Other]: But can you tell Geoff where you were born dad? It’s what he asked you!
Int: Yes, I know, yeah.
MM: In the, Bokievka.
[Other]: Bokievka, which is on the Russian side.
Int: It’s on the Russian side then. Or is it still in Poland?
[Other]: It is now -
MM: No, that was, that time, when I born we was not Russian.
[Other]: It was Poland.
MM: No, it wasn’t, it wasn’t even part of Poland.
[Other]: What was it?
MM: Austria.
Int: Oh right.
[Other]: What? So when you were born dad, you were born in Austria?
MM: Austria. Because –
[Other]: Huh? But all the documents it says in Poland.
MM: Well, it’s Poland, yeah, it was Poland, but we been under the Austrian.
Int: Oh, was it the Austro-Hungarian?
MM: Hungarian, yeah.
Int: The Austro-Hungarian kind of part of it, it came up before, post, pre Second World War and all that, possibly.
[Other]: I think where dad now, the village, I think now is Lithuania isn’t it? Or Ukraine?
MM: [Indecipherable] is on the top.
Int: But the village, or the town where you were born -
[Other]: Is now –
Int: Which country is it in now [emphasis]?
[Other]: Lithuania.
Int: Is it Lithuania? Or is it still Poland?
[Other]: What is it then? Ukraine?
MM: Ukraine.
[Other]: Ukraine.
Int: It’s Ukraine, right, okay. So the borders have changed.
MM: Ukraine, Ukraine there.
Int: Okay. Is there anything else you can think of at the moment that you’d like to tell me about your time in the Polish Air Force at all? Anything you might have, because we’ve been talking about so many different subjects, and different times through your time in the Polish Air Force, did you, did you ever, here’s a question, at the end, when you’re finishing in the Polish Air Force, did you, did they allow you to keep any of your badges, or your hat, or anything at all?
MM: Yeah.
Int: Yeah? They allowed you to keep some things. That’s good.
MM: When the coat uniform, when demob only had one uniform, all the rest of them was RAF.
Int: So you kept them for a while. Did you, do you still have any of the badges or did you, have the badges all gone?
MM: I think probably got some buttons.
Int: From your original uniform. That’s very good.
MM: But er, well, we kept the uniform and everything.
Int: Well I hope that at some point in the near future, depending on how things go, we’re obviously hoping to open the Centre, maybe not this year, it might be next year now because we’re waiting for Heritage Lottery Fund, but then we’d love to invite you up, with your family, to come and see what we’re doing in Lincolnshire.
[Other]: Yeah? Do that dad.
Int: We are looking the big Memorial Garden, with the Polish Memorials in it, we’re hoping to open on the 26th of May this next year, with His Excellency the Polish Ambassador’s coming up and it’s going to be that kind of thing.
[Other]: Oh let us know.
Int: Once we’ve firmed everything up.
[Other]: Yeah, let us know.
Int: We will yes, we’ll let you know; it’s a Thursday. We thought that’s a little bit easier for people rather than weekends where it kind of clutters things up a bit, so we’re hoping to do all of that and with all the veterans we’ve found and managed to talk to, and what I have [emphasis] got for you, because you are an armourer, I’ve got some footage, it’s RAF footage, but it’s a training, it’s almost like a training video of how to arm up bombs and how to load and unload.
MM: [Indecipherable]
Int: We’ve got something like that already.
[Other]: What I’m trying to get in my head, is how you can train for four years.
Int: Oh I know, yes.
[Other]: When people dying.
Int: They’d be pushing them out onto the squadrons.
[Other]: They need the men. I just think my dad was told a certain thing to do but they were actually doing a different type of job, if that makes any sense.
Int: Yeah. Test and evaluation in some form, or testing new things, but they were training during that time. Yes, that’d be interesting to dig a little deeper into that. Yes.
[Other]: I can’t, I think dad’s been brainwashed by what they told him.
Int: Well yes, they would have just been doing more training, and more training, but maybe there’s a little bit more. It’ll be interesting to see, when the records come out, if, while you were at Halton, it says you were actually attached to a special section or squadron, you were doing test and evaluation, you know, for these four years, because it’s -
[Other]: So it’s Margaret we need to speak to. Do you have her phone number, dad?
Int: If not, I’ve got it. I can email it to you anyway.
MM: I know her!
[Other]: Well I’m sure you do know her, but we want to get your records. She can send you a copy of your records.
MM: We’re going to the [indecipherable] and she’ll be there.
[Other]: She’ll be there. And you can ask her. You want to ask her there, okay. All right then, we’ll go to –
MM: I’ve got her telephone number.
[Other]: He wants to that, okay.
Int: You might well have already have done this anyway, have you been down to the Sikorsky Institute and Museum? In London, down on King Street.
[Other]: Probably have.
Int: Because that’s the main museum for all kinds of things.
[Other]: Yeah, I’ve been there a very long time ago, but not recently.
Int: If you want to look at any of the archives I think you have to ring them up beforehand and book, to go at a certain time and then they’ll get things out. Once you see what Margaret’s got, it might be a case that they’ve got something to do with that particular Halton thing at, in the Sikorsky Museum. They may be able to bring out photographs, cause they’ve got tremendous, we haven’t even been down there yet to look at stuff to do with the Polish squadrons because we just haven’t had the time, but we know [emphasis] they’ve got film, they’ve got photographs; they’ve got a lot of stuff archived in the Sikorsky Institute.
MM: When I been in training the one, what’s his name, he just went you know, trained and was training and he went and shot down the German plane [laugh] and that Squadron Leader he was, I think he was Canadian, and he was very upset because he say you should stick with the, the, all together, anyhow, but later on he say from now on you are in operational; you done very well.
Int: So there was a Squadron Leader who shot somebody down and he was just there practicing or testing, and then they made him operational. Right.
[Other]: So dad, you were never operational then?
MM: Pardon?
[Other]: Did you shoot down any planes?
MM: No, I didn’t fly!
[Other]: No I know you didn’t fly but did you shoot any planes from ground force, from ground level?
MM: No, ground is different people was doing that, not shooting.
[Other]: So Halton was never attacked?
Int: Quite possibly so, yes, I would imagine they would have had some kind of air raids.
[Other]: So when Halton was attacked by Germans, where would you go? You know, like London, they used to bomb London.
Int: Did you have air raid shelters, under the ground? Were they in the basement of buildings? Or were they separate?
MM: We had air raid shelters, yeah.
Int: You had the shelters to go in.
[Other]: There was a, a drill went, you had to go to air raid, yes, but you didn’t actively shoot down planes.
MM: No, no, that was different people.
[Other]: I know but I’m asking, I’m just asking.
MM: No, there was, you’ve got, with the machine gun you can’t shoot them.
Int: No, exactly. they had to be the bigger, the anti-aircraft guns, yes. Oh, okay. Well, if we find out some more information, I’d like to come back maybe, at another time, for a, to have a chat with you again and we’ll put the camera on a second time. Because there might be some other, we might even find some documents or some photographs or something that explain the kind of job that you were doing a little bit more at Halton and it’ll be interesting to see if there’s a hidden story that perhaps you [emphasis] weren’t aware of, that they were getting you doing.
[Other]: I think they’ve got a [indecipherable] that he wasn’t aware of, that they [emphasis] were aware of.
Int: Because they, you were just, with your Polish colleagues, you were just doing training, but on maybe advanced weapons, and new weapons that were coming out which is why you said it was training because it was new stuff.
[Other]: But it wasn’t training.
MM: Yes, that’s precisely, there you go.
[Other]: But that wasn’t training.
Int: So you were doing testing on new [emphasis] types of weapons because you mentioned rockets didn’t you.
MM: Oh yeah, rockets.
Int: Now rockets didn’t come in until 1944 ’45 and they put them, not under the, not so much under Spitfires, but under Typhoon, the fighter aircraft and Mosquitos.
[Other]: But dad, did you put the bombs onto the planes?
MM: Well –
[Other]: Would you put the bombs under the planes?
MM: I didn’t put them, we just I didn’t do the training.
[Other]: Forget the training, did you physically put the bombs on to the planes?
MM: You don’t understand, that was training only.
[Other]: Well that’s what they told you.
Int: So when you actually did the training, as part of the training did they show you how to attach the rockets under the wings and things?
MM: Yes of course! We were doing that.
[Other]: But did you physically do that?
MM: That was not operational planes!
Int: Yes, I understand, because that was just training, so what they would do is, they would have a plane there, and you would practice putting rockets and things on to.
MM: You put the fuses to the bombs, everything.
Int: So the aircraft was just really for practicing your training, it wasn’t operational; I understand.
MM: Was not operational.
Int: So the aeroplane was almost part of your workshop. That you used it to practice putting the bombs and the rockets on.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
[Other]: But weren’t you kind of interested as to why you were constantly on training? For four years. You know, didn’t you think in your, amongst yourselves, we’re constantly training? Didn’t you think about it?
MM: But aeroplanes so complicated.
[Other]: Yeah, but dad no [sigh].
MM: Turrets and, you know, it’s not so simple you think can learn that in one day.
[Other]: But one year was a sixth of the Second World War! We were only at war for six years so four years is a big chunk.
Int: I think you were very lucky, because you were, it does sound like you were on experimental training for all the new weapons, but they told you that it was just training. But to have kept you there all that time I think you have to have been on a very special testing and evaluation.
MM: Like I prepare wings, then rockets, we have to calculate the pins which is going to shell that – it’s not simple.
[Other]: I’m not saying that dad, but dad.
Int: The timing mechanism on a rocket to when it explodes or was it just explode on impact or at a certain distance or height.
MM: Yes! And when the pilot pressed the button, they used to have a red, or the TNT burns and that shell, that pins.
Int: This, this is an experimental area. They were given rockets, but they’re obviously um, looking, your colleagues knew, they were obviously testing different types of fuse lengths and different fuse, not lengths but timers, for rockets and bombs to work in different ways, so some would be designed to explode above the ground, like an air burst, possibly, ground burst or some other. I think there was a lot of experimental work.
[Other]: So, did you think you were getting bombs to dad that were just straight off the, kind of, um tsk?
Int: I don’t think so much production, these weren’t production, these were, I think what you had Michael was pre-production.
MM: Pre-production. Yes, that makes sense.
Int: It was experimental. People who were coming up with the ideas, bit like Barnes Wallis did with the Bouncing Bomb, and you would have scientists that were going: I want to make this and then your bunch of armourers would be there say, working out how they can make that work.
[Other]: This pre-production. So really they weren’t training, they were testers. But they were told training.
Int: But it was classed as probably training, but they were testing different fuses and different things to work out what would work.
[Other]: Before they went into production.
Int: Possibly so, I think.
[Other]: Right, okay. I think, yes.
Int: I think that’s possibly, just listening to what you’ve told us.
MM: That’s right. Definitely
Int: So I think that’s a very important job, very important. Probably more important than you realised at the time.
[Other]: Yes. So basically you were testing all the prototypes and once you’d tried, agreed. So who would sign it off then? Who was it actually, this is gonna work? Who would sign it off, your chief commander? Who was your top man? Wing Commander, or?
MM: Yeah, would be the Wing Commander was. [Beep]
[Other]: Would have to sign it off.
Int: It would be head of that section probably.
[Other]: Who was head of sections, dad?
Int: Who was in charge of your training area? Would probably have been an officer I presume.
[Other]: Do you remember?
MM: Yes, that was er –
Int: Or a Warrant Officer maybe.
[Other]: So he was probably getting information from other agencies, or other.
Int: Yes, very interesting.
MM: That’s, that’s right.
[Other]: Do you remember the name of your head of training?
MM: Um, just a moment, I try to.
[Other]: Cause I think now, you’ve got your scientists, doing your prototype, next thing.
Int: Coming down to Halton, they’re going: right, here’s the basic idea, let’s see how we can make this work.
[Other]: These guys, let’s, and then -
Int: Look at existing –
[Other]: And then someone signs it off.
Int: Bombs and rockets they’ve got, and whether they needed modifying from the scientists and then they do the armourers part of putting the whole thing together and making it work from an armourer’s point of view. And [emphasis] how do you then fix that onto the underside of the wings or into the bomb bays, because obviously the, all the connections for the bombs and the -
MM: Got some of them, rockets, they’re shooting that, they stick to the tank and exploded.
Int: Yes. There you go. So to pierce armour, any, any good project, these days projectiles will go through some serious armour and then they explode inside the tank. So the first charge blows the hole in the tank, the second charge blows inside the tank.
[Other]: So dad, when you were doing all this, you were, you’re risking your life, every time!
MM: No, I’m testing.
Int: Probably not so much cause it was in a research.
MM: Research and test.
Int: In a research kind of environment so it would be like workshop, laboratory, research and they were working out how to, so that the rockets that were fired – cause they were right at the end of the war – they’d come off fighter planes that shoot, basic, very basic rockets at the end of the forties, but you could hit ground targets, so if you got tanks going across an open ground or something, or something like that, then obviously the fighter planes could get in and then fire the rockets to hit the tanks. But as you were saying, if it hits the outside of the thing and sticks to it, so it’s not going to bounce off, and then it explodes.
MM: Otherwise it can slide that, you know.
Int: There you go there’s a very interesting little piece of information there. That, and that’s something you’ve now remembered, getting something so they’d hit the target, and stick on it, and then explode. Rather than hitting the target and bouncing off.
MM: Bounced, yes.
Int: So there we are.
[Other]: Right. So that’s where your engineering, cause dad ended up being a production engineer, so he used to.
MM: That, you had the people was coming from London and was going teach us, you know.
Int: Yeah. It’s starting to come together now! We’re understanding a little bit more about what you actually did.
[Other]: Right! Yes.
Int: So it was probably -
MM: How to drop the bombs as well.
Int: Yes.
MM: You know, was teaching everything, you know.
Int: Which does explain perhaps why –
[Other]: You weren’t operational, non-operational.
Int: And you didn’t go up through the ranks because you were staying at that experimental, although you think they might have given you another rank or two for a little bit more pay, for the job you were doing! But maybe because that was, it was a shorter time and during the war.
[Other]: Four years is a long time in the war! That’s eighty percent out of four years.
Int: We can, the records, the main records for what happened at Halton research are probably out in the public domain now if you know where to find them, just to find out, test and evaluation centre that would have been there, or a small workshops as part of the armourers. And to be honest, if you’ve got the armourers there, the people that taught the armourers will be more experienced people anyway, so then they’d use some of those instructors, probably attached to, with your father, they’d be like the managers, the site managers, or the supervisors looking after the team of younger workers that were doing the test and evaluation on things.
[Other]: But my feeling is there’s a lot going on behind the scenes here.
Int: Oh, probably so, yeah. I mean that happened through the whole of the Second World War. Not just the Air Ministry, but in the Air Ministry would, there would have been a lot of small, trying new things, test and evaluation. I mean nobody had heard about the bouncing bomb, had they, and that just, that was all built.
[Joanne] Did you test the bouncing ball dad?
MM: No.
[Other]: Did you do anything with nuclear war? That nuclear?
Int: No.
MM: No. They was testing in Wales that, yeah.
Int: Yes, I mean the bouncing bomb was all done down at um, Teddington, Teddington Lock, the big old, the big water tanks that they had down there, in towards London. I don’t know what, I don’t know where all the nuclear stuff was done.
[Other]: Wales, dad said it was Wales.
Int: Wales.
MM: Wales, that was in Wales.
Int: Probably in and around the old quarries and things like that where you have low population.
MM: They was doing some in Wales, testing.
[Other]: Oh, very interesting, I didn’t know this.
Int: There we are. It’s interesting sometimes, when things, as people relax a little bit when we have the conversations, little things do tend to come out, so, and the nice thing is we’ve captured it all now so we can put it on to a disc so that if you need to look back and remember points that perhaps you’ll forget about, and then you think ‘oh yes, I said that’, so, and that’s, so it’ll help Joanne as well cause if you get the bug and start doing a bit of research we’ve got at least some ground area now.
[Other]: So, in your testing evaluation school, how many Polish people were there? Sixty, seventy?
MM: No, that was, there was I think six, was five hundred.
[Other]: Five hundred?
MM: But different sections!
[Other]: Yeah, but in your [emphasis] section?
MM: In my section er -
[Other]: Do you remember dad?
MM: No. In my section was [pause].
Int: Five hundred would have been probably for the whole camp. With the standard training for armourers in different points, but then -
[Other]: I can’t believe that dad.
MM: Thirty or forty.
[Other]: Thirty, so it’s quite a small group.
Int: Small group, concentrate on certain things.
[Other]: Concentrate, yeah.
MM: Thirty or forty there was, yeah.
[Other]: And all the other groups, you knew all the other groups, yeah?
MM: Well one actually, he was instructor, he went to Argentina and I think he passed away long time ago.
[Other]: So, so the friends that you see at your monthly Polish Air Force lunch, they used to be in Northolt, Halton, with you, yes? No? Yes?
Int: The people that you have lunch with, each month, your friends now [emphasis] when you see them each month now.
[Other]: They were at Halton.
Int: Are they the people from Halton, or are they just Polish Air Force people that you’ve met since?
MM: No, they’re probably different.
Int: From different things, right. Okay
MM: You know, from different.
Int: Well thank you very, very much.
MM: Not so many left now [laugh].
[Other]: Very interesting.
Int: No! Well thank you very, very much Michael, find where the turn off switch is.
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Title
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Interview with Mieczyslaw Maryszczak
Description
An account of the resource
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak was born in Bokyivka, Ukraine and served in the Polish Army and then the Polish Air Force. An early memory of the war is throwing bread to starving Russian prisoners being marched from Lviv to Podlesice. At seventeen he was in the Polish Army testing repaired tanks in Gaza. After the Allied victory at Alamein he went to Egypt where he joined the Polish Air Force, sailing via South Africa to Liverpool to train at RAF Halton as an armourer.
At RAF Halton he met fellow Poles from 303 Squadron who were there for three months training. He, however, was there for four years and received training very good on all types of armament and explosives, possibly in the context of weapon research and development.
He was there on VE Day but says the Poles didn't celebrate because of the Yalta agreement. He also recalls how, when some Russians visited, they were locked in a workshop out of the way. He recalls the barrack rooms and how they cheated the midnight bed checks when some were still out dancing in Aylesbury. He also says that the food was cooked by Italian prisoners and was very good.
In 1946 Michael went to RAF Cammeringham pending demobilisation. He was then detached to 48 Maintenance Unit at Wrexham, where he received and checked aircraft guns, before going to RAF Framlingham to await resettlement or repatriation.
Some Polish airmen returned to Poland but Mieczyslaw, by then know as Michael, went to London for resettlement. He claimed that trade unions didn't want the Poles and tried to send them into the mines and foundries but he refused and found a job making spectacles. He met his wife, who is also Polish, in 1960.
In London Michael attended social events and dinners at the Polish Club. He was awarded the Polish Freedom Medal in about 1990 or 1991.
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Royal Air Force
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
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eng
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Sound
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01:31:02 audio recording
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SRAFIngham19410620v070001-Audio
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Geoff Burton
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Anne-Marie Watson
Andy Fitter
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-05-08
1946
1947
1948
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Gaza Strip
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
England--Lincoln
England--London
England--Wolverhampton
Middle East--Palestine
Wales
Wales--Wrexham
Ukraine
Poland
Poland--Kraków
303 Squadron
demobilisation
ground crew
ground personnel
military living conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
RAF Cosford
RAF Framlingham
RAF Halton
RAF Ingham
RAF Wrexham
recruitment
shelter
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1823/32458/PKentKD17010014.1.jpg
28422c2cbd35dc3f62afe4c9fffde00a
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Title
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Kent, Kenneth D
K D Kent
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kent, KD
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection concerns Kenneth Kent (b. 1922, 572440, 55219 Royal Air Force) and contains a photograph album and documents. He joined the RAF as an Apprentice in 1936, starting his training at RAF Halton later going to RAF Cosford. He completed his training as an aircraft tradesman and was promoted to corporal. He volunteered for aircrew and went to the United States and Canada for flight training in July 1942. He was commissioned in July 1943 and was posted to 106 Squadron at RAF Metheringham. He was promoted to Squadron Leader in August 1945.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Nigel Kent and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
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Title
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Course photographs 1942
Description
An account of the resource
Two photographs, first is formal photograph, 61 individuals posed in thee rows, in front of brick building with large windows. Captioned 'No 38 SFTS RAF Estavan, Saskatchewan, Canada, December 1942.
Second is of 43 aircrew trainees and four staff, posed in four rows in front of imposing building, captioned No 6 ITW Aberystwyth, Wales May 1942.
Date
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1942-05
1942-12
Format
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Two b/w photographs on an album page
Language
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eng
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PKentKD17010014
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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England
Wales
Canada
Saskatchewan
Great Britain
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
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1942-05
1942-12
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aircrew
Flying Training School
Initial Training Wing
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/194/27238/BPattisonLEPattisonLEv2.2.pdf
aeeefce175b85bf44c34653c3689d720
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Adams, Herbert
Herbert Adams
H Adams
Herbert G Adams
Description
An account of the resource
88 items. Collection concerns Herbert George Adams DFC, Legion d'Honour (b. 1924, 424509 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 467 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, photographs of people and places, several memoirs about his training and bombing operations, letters to his family, his flying logbook and notes on navigation.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Herbert Adams and catalogued by Nigel Huckins and Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Adams, HG
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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[map of North Wales and the Midlands showing where Herbert Adams was stationed at Llandwrog]
A piece of the map-reading (topographical) map of Midland & Wales. The arrows show the A.F.U’s at Llandwrog & Mona where I & Sid trained. The other 2 arrows are to the castles at Caernarvon & Conway.
[page break]
[extract detailing the methods of use of the Douglas protractor with diagram]
This is one of the simple instruments used a lot in navigation chart work, along with a pair of dividers, a parallel rule & a pencil.
All our chart work was done on Mercator projection maps with a scale of 1:1000000 …. All the meridians were parallel, and latitudes at right-angles but further apart as latitude increased.
[page break]
[map of parts of the Midlands and Wales]
This piece of the Midlands & Wales map-reading map is to a scale of 1:500000 on a modified polyconic projection which results in shapes about as good as possible considering that the earth is spherical. The meridians converge about 5 cm in a map of their size for England’s latitude.
After we finished the A.F.U. course we left, & on 27th March, moved to Lichfield, No 27 OTU (Operational Training Unit) where we were to “crew-up”, and fly in Wellington bombers (designed by Barnes Wallis of Dambusters fame. Lichfield is not for NNE of Birmingham. The town has a nice cathedral
[page break]
At Llandwrog, and all later airfields, we used the Dalton computer for doing flight plans (given track, speed & wind-velocity – it works out course & ground speed.) and for all changes of direction &/or speed. It was a huge improvement on the C.S.C. we used at Cootamundra.
We had the loose-leaf pad disconnected.
[diagram of Dalton Navigational Computer Mk. IIID]
[page break]
[diagram of underside of Navigational Computer Mk. IIIH]
This reverse face of the Dalton computer is really a circular slide rule for quick calulations [sic] of time distance & speed.
The slots allowed setting of altitude and temperature for converting Indicated Air Speed (I.A.S.), to True airspeed; this was used on each leg of a flight plan.
[black and white photograph of a Wellington aircraft in the air]
We were at Lichfield from 27th Mar. to 21st June. We didn’t have our first flight in the Wellington until 20th Apr. the first few days involved “crewing-up” then a lot of ground work; pilots using simulators.
[page break]
[black and white photograph of a Wellington on the ground with airmen in front of it]
VICKERS-ARMSTRONG WELLINGTON
With a range of 3,200 miles and a heavy bomb-carrying capacity, the Wellington has figured prominently in attacks on enemy war concentrations. An all-metal structure, with fabric covering, its distinctive feature is the tail rudder. Wings (span 86 ft. 1 in.) and tailplane taper sharply. Guns are mounted in nose and tail, and a third turret, which is retractable, is situated under the fuselage.
Two 1,000 h.p. Bristol Pegasus XVIII air-cooled engines give a speed of 265 m.p.h. There is a crew of five.
The Wellingtons we flew were Mark X which had more powerful Bristol Hercules engines of about 1600 H.P. each. We crewed-up with 2 gunners who took turns in the rear turret … later on, the Sterlings & Lancasters had a mid-upper turret.
It is certified that I have received instruction in and fully understand the following Crew Drills:-
1. Parachute Drill. 2. Dinghy Drill.
3. Crash Landing Drills.
Date 12/4/44 Signature [signature]
CERTIFIED that I have received instruction on the Wellington III fuel and oil system and that I thoroughly understand the operation of this system and manipulation of the control.
[signature] Officer o/c Synthetic Fuselage. Signed [signature]
This was part of our “ground-work”; if the Wellington flew for more than 4 hours it was the job of the navigator to pump oil to the engines, using a hand-hydraulic pump inside the fuselage.
[page break]
[four drawings of Vickers Wellington aircraft]
[black and white photograph of six airmen standing in front of a hut]
Our crew at Lichfield L. to R. Eric Taylor W.O.P.
Bert Adams. Nav
Ken Nicholls, Rear Gunner.
Ray Giles, Mid-Upper Gunner.
Peter Gray-Buchanan. Pilot.
Sid Payne, Bomb-Aimer.
There was no official direction for crewing up. A couple of days were allowed (& nights in the sergeants mess) for us to “sort our selves [sic] out.” Sid Payne and I made a pair & we went looking for a pilot. I was able to boost Sid’s qualifications by telling that he’d begun as a pilot, passed EFTS on Tiger Moths, but was ‘scrubbed’ near the end of his SFTS on Wirraways … this plus his Observor [sic] training in Australia was the same as mine. Sid had worked, after leaving school, at the main office of the Dept of Road Transport, Bridge St., Sydney.
We joined up with a Pilot-W.O.P. combination from Queensland, looking for a likely nav-bombaimer pair. Both pairs seemed happy with each other. We began looking for gunners.
[page break]
It turned out that the two gunners who’d topped their AFU course had paired up and had a good look at the groups needing gunners. I guess we were lucky that they picked us.
Ken hailed from Sydney. I’m not sure if he’d already married Tina Mitchell from Mudgee or if they wed after the war. Tina’s mother was the live-in caretaker of the A.U.A. rooms in Market St. Ray came from a farmland district in W.A., he was 25 & married; the other 5 of us were all 20. Peter was a very quiet lad from a wealthy family in Brisbane – he’d spent some time as a jackaroo in Western Queensland. Eric was more extrovert and came from Mackay.
For navigation we were introduced to two invaluable aids. The first was the Air Position Indicator, or H.P.I. Up until now we had drawn manual air-plots on the chart, needing to change it for every alteration of course or speed & requiring the pilot to steer his course accurately & keep the speed constant (which may not be convenient over Germany). The A.P.I. had an input of airspeed, corrected for altitude & temperature to give True Air Speed; also it had an input of direction from a big Distant Reading Compass mounted near the tail of the plane (less magnetism from the engines there) which combined magnetic direction & gyro stability (2 seconds from each alternately I think); the resulting [inserted] magnetic [/inserted] direction was sent (by wire) to a V.S.C. above the Nav’s table where he set the Variation for that local area & any compass deviation for that direction thus feeding True directions to the A.P.I. and to the bombsight and to the pilots display.
[page break]
The A.P.I. had 2 knobs and scales. The nav. could set known latitude & longitude, (of his airfield normally), then as the plane flew, regardless of directions & speed changes, the API scales kept track of it all & gave latitude & longitude to the nearest 1 minute ([symbol] nearest 1 nautical mile) [underlined] relative to the air [/underlined] … so we had an automatic air plot.
Therefore if we flew for say 20 min. and got a FIX (known ground LAT + LONG), the difference between the FIX and the API reading would be the wind effect for that 20 min. Plotting both on the chart, measuring with protractor & dividers, allowed the nav. to get the wind velocity.
But getting accurate fixes (up ‘till now) mostly relied on map reading (not possible on dark nights or above cloud.).
Now enter the 2nd aid, called GEE. A box on the nav. table with an oscillograph screen & 2 knobs allowed the nav. to pick up pulsed radio signals from ground stations. The master station triggered 3 other stations (I think about 50 miles apart) and the GEE-box measured the differences in time for the pulses to reach the plane. The nav. only had to pick the better pair, twiddle the knobs to align the blips with that from the master station, flip a switch & read off 2 numbers from a scale, and note the time. We learnt to do that in 1/2 a minute or less. We had special GEE charts, just like our Mercator plotting charts, but overprinted with many curved lines, in 3 colours for the 3 stations, and numbers printed on the curves often enough for us to find where the 2 numbers met. That was our FIX, and it could then be transferred to the plotting chart with dividers.
[page break]
The curves on the charts gradually became to cut at shallower angles at long distances, but all over Britain, and as far as the front line in Germany, the GEE box gave fixed with an accuracy of 1/2 mile or less. This was enormously helpful, even though the Germans jammed the G.EE frequency so that we couldn’t read the blips much beyond the front line. Much of the first week or two at Lichfield was spent learning to use the API and GEE.
[extract detailing the purpose of the Astro Compass Mk. II with photograph]
We carried this in case of emergency, but didn’t have to use it. (I still have one in the shed, souvenired after VE day.)
[page break]
[underlined] AIR NAVIGATION [/underlined]
When we began learning air navigation, we had to rely on our pilot to fly straight and level on the compass course given without any alteration to airspeed. Thus we could keep an airplot, corrected for every change of course, speed or height. Pilots flew at an indicated air speed (IAS), which had to do with stalling-speed safety, but the true air-speed changed considerably with increased height (& a bit with temperature). For example, an IAS of 165 mph at 14000’, -8o C, gave a TAS of 206 mph to use on a manual air-plot. Also, the pilot flew on a magnetic compass course, which the navigator needed to correct to a true course allowing for magnetic variation (it was 11o W at Lincoln) and deviation due to metal in the aircraft (engines, bomb-load) and which varied with the direction flown … hence the need to “swing-the-compass” on the ground to record a deviation chart for use in the air.
A simple manual air-plot could look like this:-
[diagram]
By the time our training (in England) graduated to operational type aircraft (Wellingtons, Sterlings, Lancasters) we had the benefit of an Air Position Indicator (API) … a clever little black box with windows showing latitude & longitude to the nearest minute. These aircraft had a master compass (distant-reading) down towards the tail so that deviation would be minimal, and it fed magnetic direction to a Variation Setting Control (VSC) above the navigator’s table. The navigator set the VSC to the local variation & then repeater compasses for the pilot, bombsight & navigator all read [underlined] true [/underlined] directions.
[page break]
Also, the API had an input of I.A.S. altitude and temperature & (somehow) converted that to T.A.S. (true air speed). The API now had the 2 inputs which enabled it to produce an automatic air-plot, regardless of any changes of direction, speed, height or temperature! For shortish trips, we would set the A.P.I. to read the latitude & longitude of our airfield. On longer trips, or when expecting strong winds, the wind vector could become too long as to be cumbesome [sic] (longer than our parallel ruler). Early in our operations we would reset the API to the lat. & long. of a “good” fix … but after some errors in resetting (& perhaps a “bad” fix) we, later, offset the API to about 1/2 the expected wind vector so that it shrank for the first half of the trip, the [sic] grew again coming home … a much safer and more elegant solution to that problem.
With the API giving us air-position all the time, we now had the ability to find accurate wind-velocities whenever we could get a good fix. The most usual fix was from the GEE-box … a gadget about a 1’ cube size, which picked up radio pulses from ground stations spread across England & linked so that the master station triggered pulses from the other 2 stations. We could twiddle the 2 knobs to line up 2 lots of blips simultaneously, note the time & Air Position, then flick a switch which showed 2 lots of 3-figure “numbers” to draw in freehand arcs on special GEE-charts – and where the arcs crossed was a fix, quite accurate over & near England, less so as we got further away. And the Germans jammed the frequency so that we’d lose GEE about where the front-line existed. This generally meant we had about 2 hours of good wind-finding to allow us to amend the forecast winds sensibly and enable us to proceed to our target on dead-reckoning without seeing the ground for a visual fix.
[page break]
Our first 9 flights in Wellingtons were called Circuits & Landings. The first 6 were with an instructor pilot, then 3 with Peter going SOLO. I practiced GEE fixes (except that GEE-box didn’t work on 4 of them.) We did 4 daylight cross-country navigation trips (4 or 5 hours each) usually combining some bombing & gunnery practice, and 3 pure bombing flights, dropping 12 bombs singly each time. Then 4 dual flights with a pilot instructor at night and 4 more SOLO, circuits & landings. I practiced GEE fixes, and Eric did so on two of those flights. We did 4 night cross-country nav. flights with some gunnery & bombing practice, a gunnery trip with an instructor pilot and 5 gunners aboard, another solely bombing flight at 20000’, with Sid getting an average error of 165 yds. We also did a BULLSEYE flight where we and lots of other Wellingtons flew out over the North Sea as if to attack Wilhemshaven, while a large Bomber Command force flew in towards another target. We were a diversion hoping to divide their night-fighter reaction. We turned back before getting really close to land, saw no fighters nor searchlights, but had the privilege of counting that as one operational sortie.
In total at Lichfield we flew a bit over 77 hours, 1/2 of them at night. We left there for a week’s leave on 14th June. Our first stop was at Birmingham where we changed trains for London. We went first to the Boomerang Club in Australia House where we got the address of a Servicemans Club west of Kensington where we stayed for 17/6 a night, which was OK as we’d been told that London was expensive; we also got 4 lots
[page break]
of free Theatre tickets for stage shows, which we used, & they were worth about 16/- each. We did a couple of tours over some of the old historical places … the Tower, Abbey, St Pauls & the Art Gallery. Our 2 gunners were tee-totallers (a good thing we reckoned, as we knew a lot of gunners who drank a lot & often) so we put in a fair bit of time at cinemas and a visit to the Windmill theatre where music dancing & vaudeville acts seemed to be secondary to their showing of almost-nude girls who posed around the set without moving .. the sets were changed, the girls too, frequently. Most had elaborate headwear, feathers etc. We didn’t get about as a crew all the time. Sid, I think, went to a ballet or two … he often burst into song in bits of Italian while waving arms like a conductor. He did have a nice voice. Peter had some people to visit known to his older brother who’d already done a tour (probably 2 tours by now) as a rear-gunner on Lancasters. I went out to Taplow and revisited Margaret Vyner and her mother … a nice talk with lunch.
Our crew was pleased with the results on our course at Lichfield; I was rated above average & recommended for a commission, perhaps in 3 months. We heard a rumour that we’d next go to a conversion course on Halifaxes, then probably to an RAAF squadron on Lancasters, in 5 Group.
For our final night in London we decided we’d all visit the Savoy Hotel, the poshest nightspot. We had very little money left, so just bought a drink each, listened to the orchestra & prepared to leave.
[page break]
We were all Flight-Sergeants (we got automatic promotion after 6 months) & I guess stood out among the high-ranking officers (many American) and well-heeled Britons. One of them came over & introduced himself & invited us to join his table. We thanked him but said we’d no money, we just wanted to say we’d been to the Savoy. But he said they’d foot the bill, so we joined him & his wife & 2 daughters and an American Colonel. The man was the managing director of Lysaghts at Wollengong. He seemed pleased to hear where we were from and a bit about our training. There was a dance floor and a famous band, Carol Gibbons the leader. The girls wanted to dance. We all said we couldn’t dance, but I said I could waltz OK. Carol was called over & asked to play a waltz. I got up with one of the girls & the music was a jazz-waltz, which I couldn’t manage. (I should have asked for old-time, like the Blue Danube.) We stumbled around for a while, I very embarrassed, and retreated early to the table. Apart from that it was a great night-out, nice food, a few drinks and interesting conversations.
On return we were posted to 5 Group Air Crew Category School, on 21st June, at Scampton, just north of Lincoln. We were there for 10 days, but did no flying there. I can’t remember what we did do but I guess it was some sort of training.
We moved to 1660 H.C.U. (Heavy Conversion Unit) at Swinderby on 2nd July, where the planes were Sterlings … huge planes 100’ long; with tail undercarriage – no danger of losing you [sic] head walking under a propellor, as you can see from this photograph overleaf.
[page break]
[black and white photograph of a Sterling aircraft on the ground with a few airmen around it]
The Short Sterling. Our pilot Peter, hand on wheel, Ken, Sid & Eric at the end of the tailplane, Don Coutts our new Engineer with 2 of the ground crew closer to the plane & me, with Nav. bag & Ray Giles, our mid-upper gunner at the door.
Don, the engineer, had been a policeman in Coventry & Birmingham. He was “old”, about 42 I think. He was born in Scotland; his parents now lived in Ireland.
I read that the Sterling was originally designed to have a greater wingspan, perhaps 120’, but none of the regular hangers could take such width, so they clipped the wing design back without changing the rest of the design. They didn’t have 2-stage superchargers like the Lancasters, and although their big radial engines were more powerful than Merlins they didn’t perform well above about 15000’. So as more & more Halifaxes & Lancasters were built the Sterlings were used as trainers and as glider tugs, particularly in the big Market Garden debacle around Arnhem and in the Normandy invasion.
[page break]
This is about the sextant we carried in the nav. bag on all flights but never used on Operations. It came in a solid carrying box … I still have one that I “souveneered” [sic] after VE day. As well as charts, maps etc we had to carry the current Air Almanac & 1 or more books of A.N. Tables, each book only covered 4o of latitude, in a green canvas carry bag.
[extract detailing the methods of use of the Bubble Sextant with photograph]
[page break]
We did a bit over 48 hours of flying at Swinderby spread over a month. 10 of the 27 flights were with instructor-pilots doing day & night circuits & landings including 2 & 3 engined landings. 3-engined overshoots, corkscrews & banking searches, feathering propellors, fighter affiliation using cine-camera “guns”. Most of the other flights were bombings & gunnery, 3 cross-country nav. trips, and practice at all the other things mentioned above.
One “hairy” landing stands out. We’d had some wet weather & the grass verges beside the runways were boggy. Another pilot, trying to land in a cross-wind touched down with one wheel off the runway – the undercarraige [sic] collapsed & the plane plowed to a stop in the mud. We helped dig the bomb-aimer from the nose (he should not have been there for landing) where he was jammed up into the front turret by mud. The next day we were trying to do a 3-engined landing. The “rule” was, once you got below 1000’ on 3-engines you must land, … I guess the rule applied to emergency situations where the other engine couldn’t be restarted & may be some damage to the plane. Anyway, there was a cross-wind & when we were about to touch down, Peter said “we’re going around”, slammed the throttles forward & told the Engineer to get the 4th engine restarted. My job, on landings, was to call out the airspeed to save the pilot having to look down at the airspeed indicator. The stalling speed with flaps down was about 80 mph, and I’m calling 65, 65, 65 … while Peter juggled the controls to keep us just above the mud.
[page break]
He managed it and once the 4th engine started, the speed built up and we just cleared the hedges beyond the runway’s end. Peter was “dressed down” for ignoring the rule, but I reckon he saved them a Sterling … and us some bruises or worse.
We were moved from Swinderby to Syerston, a bit further S.W. of Lincoln on 12th of Aug. and got a week’s leave at once. I went to Edinburgh; Ray & Don were going to Rugby & Birmingham respectively & the others to London. I had intended joining them after 3 or 4 days, but since it wasn’t long since I’d been there, and they were getting a fair number of VI flying bombs I didn’t bother. While in the bath there someone stole my wallet including my identity card, army discharge papers, my pen & some other papers. Then on the way back to Lincoln, I stopped for a meal at Newcastle & someone stole my gas-mask bag which also held my pay-book, log book, & the few clothes etc. I took for a week. I was in big trouble (reprimanded) for losing the identity car, and inconvenienced for 2 months of no pay, until a duplicate pay-book was arranged. Months later the police at Newcastle sent the log-book back.
A couple of pages on, I’ve underlined the airfields we trained at on the map, with Lincoln near the top, & have shown Waddington & Wigsley underlined too.
At Syerston we converted to Lancasters … it was called 5 L.F.S. (Lancaster Finishing School). We did 9 flights totalling 18 hours, 5 of them with an instructor pilot, doing circuits & landings, 3-engined overshoots & landings, corkscrews & banking searches.
We moved from there to No 467 Squadron (RAAF) at Waddington on 7th of September.
[page break]
I’d forgotten, but while were [sic] still at Syerston we went in to Nottingham to the indoor swimming pool, and practiced dinghy drill … all the crew working together had to learn the technique of turning it upright from being upside down as they may be that way after being automatically ejected & inflated in case the plane crashes in the sea. We managed it OK although it was a shock putting on cold wet Mae Wests before diving into the cold water; I can imagine it might be much tougher at night in a rough sea. We had time for lunch & a wander in the town. Peter has bought a second-hand Ford 10 sedan for $25, which he & Don have “restored” to good running condition. Civilians get no coupons for petrol. Doctors etc. get a ration. Airmen on Operations get about 5 gallons a quarter, with some more if going on leave to a place not serviced by train. I had an auto-cycle … like a pushbike with a tiny 2-stroke engine, and was able to scrounge a little petrol from some of the drivers of the transports which took us out (& back) to the planes … a bottle full now & then. It need [sic] a bit of pedalling going up steep grades. I was given a licence to ride it, drive a car/truck/tractor merely by showing my expired Aussie licence … no test, just pay the small fee.
After settling in to our nice brick, centrally-heated room, 6 of our crew down one side, 6 of another crew on the other side, 8 rooms altogether like that, in our block, with toilets & ablutions in the centre of the [symbol] (same upstairs) all the new crews, 8 of us, assembled in the C.O.s office next day for a welcome talk. The C.O. was Wing Commander Bill Brill, originally from Ganmain.
[page break]
[map of Lincolnshire detailing RAF bases]
He and another young man from Ganmain, Arthur Doubleday, had enlisted early in the war. Both had done 2 tours with Bomber Command. Bill had earned D.S.O., D.F.C and Bar, & I think Arthur had the same decorations … he was then C.O. of 463 squadron also at Waddington, though he soon moved on.
[page break]
One of the things Bill told us Flight-Sergeants was that if we applied for a commission after about 20 Operations he’d recommend anyone who hadn’t done something stupid. What he didn’t say was that he didn’t want to waste time interviewing those who hadn’t got that far because a lot of them wouldn’t. As it turned out, when we finished our tour in Jan ’45, only 3 of the 8 crews remained.
After he finished his welcome talk, he dismissed the other 7 crews, and asked us to go up with him for a dual check, airtest. The reason he favoured us was that Peter’s older brother had been his rear gunner in his first tour. (Years later I met Arthur Doubleday at Wagga where he addressed Air Force Association members. I had an invitation and I mentioned Bill & Peter’s brother. He said “Old Buck eh, I had him as my rear gunner in my second tour.” Small world eh?)
He seemed satisfied with the way Peter handled the Lancaster, until he asked him to do a corkscrew. Then he took over the wheel (the Lanc’s [sic] had dual controls although only 1 pilot in the crew) and showed how he’d do it. He said the Lanc. was tough, you wouldn’t hurt it by being harsh with the controls even with a big bomb load. So it was “down port”, with a vengeance, really steep diving turn, “down starboard” still steep but faster, up port, up starboard as usual – quite harsh on the controls. He had Peter copy him.
When we’d landed he told us that there was an easy daylight Operation on Le Havre coming up on the 10th & he’d put us on for our 1st Op. despite Peter not having first done a “second-dickie” operation with another crew.
[page break]
The next day we did 2 flights, the first a fighter affiliation with cine-camera “guns”, the second a 5 hr 4 min cross-country navigation exercise with 6 bombs at the end, with Sid getting an ‘A’ assessment.
We did our first Operation the next day on Le Havre. I have already done some commentary, along with my original logs & charts for our tour of Ops, so I’ll leave that & just mention that Peter did his “second-dickie” the next night, 11th Sept. on Damstadt; and I’ll digress a bit about the lead up to D-Day and the months that followed, particularly from the viewpoint of Bomber Command.
Up until that time a tour of operations was 30 trips, and 20 more for a second tour. Because Bomber Command (I’ll use B.C. from now on) did so many short trips leading up to D-Day, and for some time after, they raised the quota for a tour to 36 trips, which was the case when we bombed Le Havre. From June to August, B.C. maintained a running battle against VI “buzz-bomb” launch sites & supply depots; these were short trips and once they eased off in August, the quota was lowered to 33 Ops. in mid-September. By the end of ’44, many of B.C.’s ops were longish, so the quota was back to 30 again, in time for us to end our tour on 16 Jan ’45.
When we started Ops, the maximum all-up-weight for take-off was 63000 lb. It was found that Lancasters handled that so well so that it was raised to 65000 lb approaching winter. Then, they replaced the existing Merlin engines with a later Mark, & raised the max. weight to 67000 lb in November. And 617 squadron (Special Ops) later carried the 20000 lb “grand slam” bomb with take-off weight 72000 lb.
[page break]
Here are some Extracts from “The Hardest Victory – RAF Bomber Command in WWII by Dennis Richards. (Hodder & Stoughton, 1994.).
The Transportation Plan, preparatory to OVERLORD … the invasion in Normandy. As part of the plan to convince the Germans that the landings would be in the Pas de Calais, far more bridges & railway workshops & marshalling yards were attacked North of the Seine than South of it. In this phase, B.C. dealt with 37 of the railway targets, American 8th Air Force heavies 26, and AEAF (fighters, fighter-bombers, light & medium bombers & reconnaissance planes, a mixture of RAF & USAAF squadrons) 20. B.C. dropped nearly 45000 tons on these centres, twice the tonnage of the other 2 combined. Harris in “Bomber Command” wrote:- “B.C.’s night bombing proved to the rather more accurate, much heavier in weight & more concentrated than the American daylight attacks, a fact which was afterwards clearly recognised by SHAEF when the time came (later) for the bombing of German troop concentrations within a mile or so of Allied troops.”
In this Transportation phase, B.C. made 69 attacks, flew 9000 sorties & lost 198 planes (1.8 percent loss rate). They caused enormous damage. At the end about 2/3 of the 37 centres were completely out of action for a month or longer, with the remainder only needing some further “attention” from fighter-bombers.
Unhappily, the toll of friendly civilian lives was sometimes more than the “prescribed” limit of 100-150 per raid. (Coutrai 252, Lille 456, Ghent 482), but the overall total was much less than the 10000 people they hoped would not be reached.
The attacks on rail centres by all 3 air forces
[page break]
proved catastrophic for the German armies. Only about 12 percent of rolling stock was fit for use. A division from Poland took 3 days to get to West Germany, then 4 weeks to the Normandy battlefront!
During the struggle in Normandy, B.C. operated in strength close to battlefields. On the night of 14/5 June, 337 planes attacked troops & vehicles at Aunay and Eurecy (near Caen). On 30th June, B.C. did its first daylight raid … 266 Lanc’s [sic] & Hali’s [sic] & a few Mosquitos, with Spitfire escort bombed a road junction at Villers-Bocage from 4000’ and thwarted a Panzer attack. Of B.C.’s 5 other attacks in close support, the biggest was on 18th July … operation GOODWOOD … a maximum effort involving 1056 heavies of B.C. and 863 American bombers to help the push SE of Caen towards Falaise … but bad weather and unsubdued anti-tank guns stopped the push at 6 miles at best. However, it impressed the Germans. Von Kluge, who’d just replaced Rommel, wrote to Hitler on 21st Jul.:- “There is no way by which, in the face of the enemy air forces’ complete command of the air, we can discover a form of strategy which will counterbalance the annihilating effects [underlined] unless we withdraw from the battlefield. [/underlined] Whole armoured formations allotted to counter-attack were caught beneath bomb carpets of the greatest intensity so that they could be rescued from the torn-up ground only by prolonged effort. The psychological effect of such a mass of bombs coming down with all the power of elemental nature on the fighting forces, especially the infantry, is a factor which has to be taken into very serious consideration. It is immaterial whether such a carpet catches good troops or bad. They are more or less annihilated, & above all their equipment is shattered.” (He suicided a month later when Hitler wouldn’t allow a withdrawal.)
[page break]
On 7/8 Aug. (night), 1019 heavies of BC. raided 5 points ahead of Allied troops … helping the Canadian 1st Army to open the way to Falaise.
The Allies had 14000 aircraft against Germany’s 1000 in those weeks. By 3rd Sept the British 2nd Army was in Brussels, but had by-passed the ports which were needed to boost supplies to the troops. Le Havre & Dieppe were left surrounded, but the attack inland aimed at Antwerp (the biggest port) swung inland leaving Boulogne, Calais & Dunkirk and a bit of territory East of the coast still strongly held by Germans, including the Schelt [sic] estuary, leading to Antwerp, which was heavily mined and defended by heavy guns both on its south bank and on Walcheren Island to the North.
B.C.’s resumption of attacks on oil targets were delayed by the V1 threat. Hitler had hoped to begin mass attacks by VI’s on London as a “New Year Present” in Jan ’44, but damage to “ski” sites & raids on the Fiesler works at Kassel, plus their own trouble getting the bomb to function reasonably, caused set-backs. Allied bombing of railways held up deliveries of launchers & bomb components. It wasn’t until 12/13 June that the first VI attacks occurred, & then only 7 of 55 sites managed to launch a total of 10, of which only 3 reached England. But on the 2 nights of 15/6 & 16/7 June, 144 crossed the Kentish coast and 73 reached London.
In operation CROSSBOW, B.C. & 8th US Air Force and AEAF attacked VI sites from Mid-June to mid-August, using 40 percent of B.C.’s strength. Targets were the modified launch sites, supply depots, and “large sites” preparing to launch the big VII rockets.
[page break]
B.C. attacked these day & night; they flew 16000 sorties, & dropped 59000 tons of bombs on VI & VII targets only losing 131 planes, a loss rate of less than 1 percent.
By mid-August, there was less need, because of better defences (A.A. & fighters began using proximity fuses on shells, that with balloons resulted in less than 20 percent reaching their target, and finally the Canadian & British armies over-ran the launching sites.
On every day but one from 5th to 11th September B.C. sent 300 or more heavies to bomb the German-held territory at Le Havre. The total for the week was 2500 sorties dropping 9750 tons. The ground attack there on 11th, after the last air-raid, captured the port, and a lot of Germans with only 50 fatalities. However, the garrison had destroyed the port facilities; it was not able to be used by ships until mid-October. (Our first ‘Op’ was on the 10th, as part of 992 heavies that day.)
A week later, on 17 Sept, BC. did a big raid on Boulogne … 762 heavies, opening the way for an attack by the Canadian Army. The garrison surrendered on Sept 22nd. A quote from a diary of a captured German officer:- “Sometimes one could despair of everything if one is at the mercy of the RAF without any protection. It seems as if all fighting is useless & all sacrifices in vain.”
The Canadian Army captured these 2 ports, plus Dieppe (without a fight), plus the big cross-channel batteries at Cap Gris Nez, losing only 1500 men, but capturing 29945 prisoners. However it took over a month to repair the port at Boulogne, and all of them, including Cherbourg were unable to unload the big crates of heavy equipment from USA … the cranes were beyond repair, so the big crates had to be unloaded in England then ferried across the Channel.
[page break]
This slowing of supplies plus Eisenhower’s reluctance to stop the American armies in the south, especially Patton’s 3rd Army, slowed the Canadian advance on the Schelt [sic] Estuary due to lack of supplies; and probably influenced Montgomery to plan Market Garden without enough support from the British Army, who hadn’t enough supplies. (Bad luck and bad weather & bad radios also contributed to the actual failure of Market Garden.).
[black and white photograph of two men. One laying in bed and one sitting up]
Ken Nicholls & Bert in our room, sergeants quarters at Waddington, late 1944.
[black and white photograph of two men loading bombs into the bomb-bay of an aircraft]
Loading 1000 bombs into D-Dog’s bomb-bay.
[black and white photograph of six airmen standing in front of an aircraft]
Morrie & Rupe (ground crew)
Ken Nicholls, Ken (“ “ mechanic)
Don Coutts, Ray Giles near tail of D-Dog.
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Title
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H Adams memoir - training and operations
Description
An account of the resource
Shows maps of North Wales and the Midlands as well as an explanation of the Douglas protractor as well as diagrams of the Dalton computer and photographs of Wellington. Describes training at RAF Lichfield from end of March to 21 June 1944. Shows photograph of his crew which he describes as well as crewing up process. Describes navigation techniques in great detail using air position indicator, GEE and astro and crew navigation procedure. Describes first trip in Wellington as well as subsequent training flights. Goes on to describe post course leave including visits to the theatre and historical places in London as well as other activities. Goes on to describe training at RAF Swinderby on Heavy Conversion Unit flying Stirling. Describes flights including one hairy landing. Then moved to Syerston where they did Lancaster Finishing School before moving to RAF Waddington 467 Squadron. Describes arrival on squadron and first operation to Le Havre. Writes that because of short trips during Normandy campaign tours were now extended to 36 trips as well as describing bomber command's targeting strategy. Then provides some extracts from "The Hardest Victory - RAF Bomber Command in WWII by Dennis Richards". Followed by photographs of people and aircraft.
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H G Adams
Format
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Twenty-eight page handwritten document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Map
Photograph
Technical aid
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Australian Air Force
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Wales
England--Staffordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--London
France
France--Le Havre
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-03-27
1944-06-21
1944-08-12
1944-06-14
1944-06-15
1944-06-30
1944-07-18
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Tricia Marshall
Identifier
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BPattisonLEPattisonLEv2
1660 HCU
27 OTU
467 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Lichfield
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Mona
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/501/22522/MCurnockRM1815605-171114-008.1.pdf
1eace9778a4d8293c3066b0c2a62c393
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Title
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Curnock, Richard
Richard Murdock Curnock
R M Curnock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Curnock, RM
Date
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2016-04-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
92 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Richard Curnock (1924, 1915605 Royal Air Force), his log book, letters, photographs and prisoner of war magazines. He flew operations with 425 Squadron before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Richard Curnock and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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Title
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The Kriegie December 2002
Description
An account of the resource
The news-sheet of the RAF ex-POW Association. This edition covers the POW memorial, Recco report -stories of ex-POWs, the Larry Slattery memorial fund, the Second World War experience centre, an article by Vitel Formanek about his visit to the UK, BBC drama Night Flight review, a promotional tour for 'The Bomber War', the members march at the Golden Jubilee Parade, a memorial service for Bill Reid VC, 60th Anniversary of the Comet Escape line and Book reviews.
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The RAF ex-POW Association
Date
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2002-12
Format
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Eight printed sheets
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
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MCurnockRM1815605-171114-008
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Royal Canadian Air Force
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Great Britain
England--Reading
Wales
England--Leeds
Belgium--Brussels
Germany--Essen
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany
Belgium
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Berkshire
England--Yorkshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
150 Squadron
35 Squadron
427 Squadron
49 Squadron
61 Squadron
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
Conspicuous Gallantry Medal
de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007)
Dulag Luft
entertainment
escaping
evading
flight engineer
ground personnel
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
memorial
navigator
prisoner of war
RAF Hendon
Spitfire
sport
Stalag Luft 1
Stalag Luft 3
Stalag Luft 4
Stalag Luft 6
the long march
Victoria Cross
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
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Title
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Valentine, John
John Ross Mckenzie Valentine
J R M Valentine
Description
An account of the resource
674 Items. Collection concerns navigator Warrant Officer J R McKenzie Valentine (1251404 Royal Air Force). The collection contains over 600 letters between JRM Valentine and his wife Ursula. It also contains his log book, family/official documents, a book of violin music studies and other correspondence. Sub-collections contain family photographs, prisoner of war photographs and a scrapbook of newspaper cuttings of events from 1942 to 1945.
He joined 49 Squadron in April 1942 and flew 10 operations on Hampdens. The squadron converted to Manchester in May when he completed two further operations. His aircraft was shot down on the Thousand Bomber raid of 30/31 May 1942. Five crew, including him bailed out successfully and became prisoners of war. The pilot and one air gunner were killed when the aircraft rolled over and crashed.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frances Zagni and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Valentine, JRM
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Start of transcription
1251404 AC 2 Valentine
D Flight
1 Squadron
RAF
[inserted] Queens Hotel [/inserted]
[deleted] ABERYSTWTH [/deleted] ABERYSTWYTH
[inserted] [circled See if you can do it first shot] [/inserted]
[deleted] Aberywth [/deleted]
Wales
28/12/40
Ursula Darling,
These few lines may seem a little incoherent but at the end of a long day & while waiting to have a bath 10 days overdue I am feeling a little jaded. Having so much that I would like to say & not feeling able to marshal my thoughts properly. I shall probably succeed in sending you a lot of disjointed trash.
I hope, my dearest little wife that you got home safely, were not too tired, had an uneventful journey & were not so foolish as to over exert yourself in any way. I know that you are sensible enough to try to restrain your impetuosity but there are times, I know, when you try to undertake too much. A suitcase, mammoth handbag & a high spirited dog comprise quite a handful for a woman in your condition I am just praying that you managed
[page break]
everything successfully & arrived home intact & not worn out. I hope the taxi turned up promptly and did not overcharge you. Let me know about your journey especially the last part from Paddington to Hendon. I was outside your bedroom window shortly after 5 am today and longed to wake you up to give you a good morning and another farewell kiss but I didn’t want to rouse the whole house at that ungodly hour so I contented myself with slipping a note under the door. Did you get it, my dear? I cant [sic] remember what I wrote for I did it about 4.30 am. but my heart was so full of you your sweetness to me, your [indecipherable word] to me after my confession, your great love for me, the thousands of kindness both large & small that I have had from you that I was moved even [deleted] that [/deleted] at that bleak hour to write you a few lines. They may not have read too well but the fact that I was unable to stop myself from writing only a few hours after seeing you proves what a terrific power
[page break]
you have become in my life.
I have now had my bath & am sitting uncomfortably in bed feeling very sleepy for I had only 180 minutes of sleep last night. Nevertheless I know that I shall continue writing until the other fellows insist on putting out the light so completely am I under your spell just now.
I loved the Christmas we had together despite the unpleasantness at P.M. Your many kindnesses in the form of [deleted] the [/deleted] a multitude & variety of [deleted] your [/deleted] presents completely overwhelmed me leaving me almost speechless when I had opened the lot. I feel that the precious days we had together [deleted] on [/deleted] [inserted] during [/inserted] your two visits were truly marvellous. The more so because they were wrested from the tentacles of the R.A.F, & not merely free gifts bestowed in a moment of weakness. We, particularly you, seized every possible moment and made the most of them all. I shall always treasure this happiest of memories of Stratford-upon-Avon almost as much as of Kellin.
[page break]
After I left you last night I made straight for my billet & marched boldly up to the front door. To my releif [sic] there was no guard at that time – he was prowling about somewhere in the house – and I was able to get into my room unobserved. Soon after I got in another night prowler arrived, he too was not caught and with the light of my torch we climbed into bed and had a final cigarette. I dropped off to sleep about 1 am, I think, only to be awakened at 4 am. sharp. We had, all thing being considered & in the light of my previous experiences of travelling with the RAF a positively delightful journey here. We waited about at Stratford for rather longer than we liked but after we started moving the journey became quite enjoyable. We had only 1 change & [deleted] always [/deleted] travelled in reserved coaches all the way. It was a truly glorious day
[page break]
bright sun and blue sky prevailing all the way. We went via Shrewsbury and then right through mid Wales. The scenery was most attractive & I spent most of the time in the corridor gazing out at the hills, trees, woods and streams, drinking in impressions of a lovely landscape bathed in sunlight and crowned by a clear blue sky. The sight of the hills brought back many happy memories of the happy times you and I have spent together in the mountains. I love hills; they grip me in a way that defies description; there is something so superb in their size compared with the paucity of men, their apparently haphazard shape, their clothing of grass bracken or wood gashed by little silver slips where water comes tumbling down, their silence and massive immobility combine to thrill me in a [deleted] most [/deleted] vague but very real manner. With you by my
[page break]
side I am sure that I could live out my days happily among mountains. Unfortunately we had to get here sometime although the train was obliging enough to arrive over an hour late.
We were expected here, which is quite a new experience for us. Two or three officers & N.C.O’s met us at the station, called the role & then marched us to our billets. I have been allotted a room with five others. Thompson is one of them but I am not very keen on the others. Since we arrived at this pub at 3.30 I have not been out for there has been quite a lot to do & to learn before one can settle down for the first night.
We have had a short talk from our corporal who gave us a rough idea of what lies ahead. It is certain that we are in for a really busy time. He told us so & this was confirmed by several fellows who have been here for a few weeks. They say that we shall not have a spare moment from 6.30 am until 5.30 pm.
[page break]
The whole station seems to be really well organised but very very [sic] strict. We are now entitled to wear white “flash” in the front of the forage cap. A privilege granted to enable us to be distinguished as “Air Crew under training”. We are obviously to be allowed very little chance of developing bad habits for the place abounds [deleted] in [/deleted] [inserted] with [/inserted] rules & regulations and we have a very full timetable which is adhered to strictly. The course lasts 8 weeks & we ought to be granted a 7 day leave upon completion. We have about half a dozen exams during the course, at each of which a few will fall by the wayside – I hope.
Someone has just hinted that they will be turning out the lights soon so I shall prepare to stop at a moments notice.
I hope your cold is better dear. Let me know how it goes I seem to have developed another in real earnest & will dose myself with aspirin when I go to sleep.
[page break]
I hope you can read these jottings. I am lying flat on my back holding the pad up with my left hand. It is not easy to write [deleted] like [/deleted] in this way because one can’t hold the paper still enough. Nevertheless it is the warmest posture.
Tomorrow, given time, I shall attach the accumulated arrears which have piled up against me since Xmas so please forgive me if I dont [sic] add to this.
I am dreadfully sorry, darling, that you should be saddled with so much of the fag of making arrangements for April 4th. It is not fair that you should have to do it. Please let me know of your progress & also whether you still want to inform my folk of our change of plan.
Goodnight dearie, fondest love May we have many more days as happy as the last few.
John.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from John Valentine to his wife Ursula
Description
An account of the resource
Writes that he hoped she got home safely and how much he enjoyed her visit. Describes his journey via Shrewsbury and Wales to Aberystwyth where unusually they were expected.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-12-28
Contributor
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Tricia Marshall
Format
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Eight page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
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EValentineJRMValentineUM401228-02
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales
England--Shropshire
Wales--Dyfed
Wales--Aberystwyth
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-12-28
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Ross Mckenzie Valentine
military living conditions
military service conditions
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1306/18208/CWhittleGG-160822-010024.2.jpg
9f6b4278cbe3ca8f1ffd468bb9091e44
Dublin Core
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Title
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Whittle, Geoffrey. Air charts
Description
An account of the resource
25 air charts of Great Britain and Australia, and a bomb damage sheet of Hamburg.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Whittle, G
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Title
A name given to the resource
North Wales and Manchester Sheet 4
Description
An account of the resource
Ordnance Survey map of North Wales and Manchester, Military Edition, scale 1/4 inch to one mile, sheet 4.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One colour map
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Map
Identifier
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CWhittleGG-160822-010024
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Manchester
Wales
England--Lancashire
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Ordnance Survey
aircrew
navigator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1306/18199/CWhittleGG-160822-010015.1.jpg
f21c46265b36b6bc6893e3314bf515a0
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Title
A name given to the resource
Whittle, Geoffrey. Air charts
Description
An account of the resource
25 air charts of Great Britain and Australia, and a bomb damage sheet of Hamburg.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Whittle, G
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
North Wales and Manchester, Air Chart, Sheet 4
Graticule edition
Description
An account of the resource
Ordnance Survey air chart of North Wales and Manchester, scale 1/4 inch to one mile, sheet 4.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One colour chart
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Map
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CWhittleGG-160822-010015
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Manchester
Wales
England--Lancashire
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Ordnance Survey
aircrew
navigator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1306/18186/CWhittleGG-160822-010002.2.jpg
65f7755ee78951a6c76632773f48e3d7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whittle, Geoffrey. Air charts
Description
An account of the resource
25 air charts of Great Britain and Australia, and a bomb damage sheet of Hamburg.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Whittle, G
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
South Wales Air Chart Sheet 7
Graticule edition
Description
An account of the resource
Ordnance Survey air chart of South Wales, sheet 7, scale 1/4 inch to one mile.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One colour chart
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Map
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CWhittleGG-160822-010002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Ordnance Survey
aircrew
navigator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1239/16172/CCattyMA-180822-010006.2.jpg
4a80c8e64cf72da5a56c88e37fc23044
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Catty, Martin Arthur. Gee charts
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. Miniature Lattice Chart book containing charts for Great Britain and the surrounding seas.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CCattyMA-180822-01
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Fishguard-Le Havre
Description
An account of the resource
Gee chain chart, sheet 1 covering the south of England and Wales and the very north of France.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-02
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One printed chart
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
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CCattyMA-180822-010006
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England
Wales
France
Great Britain
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Map. Navigation chart and navigation log
Map
aircrew
Gee
navigator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1239/16169/CCattyMA-180822-010003.1.jpg
68044da513f8fbba5040ac8494df6d76
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Catty, Martin Arthur. Gee charts
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. Miniature Lattice Chart book containing charts for Great Britain and the surrounding seas.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CCattyMA-180822-01
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Belfast-Rugby
Description
An account of the resource
Gee chain chart Sheet 6 covering west England, Wales and East Ireland
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One printed chart
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
CCattyMA-180822-010003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Ireland
Wales
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Map. Navigation chart and navigation log
Map
aircrew
Gee
navigator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/882/11709/PHorshamES1602.2.jpg
67e67ad73fa2fc212dac0e588fd3a172
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/882/11709/ASymondsHorshamE170105.2.mp3
7d055b8f4144ed6db659e469c9e75ac0
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Horsham, Eric
Eric Symonds Horsham
E S Horsham
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Eric Horsham (b. 1923), 9 photographs, and his memoirs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 102 Squadron from RAF Pocklington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Eric Horsham and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Horsham, ES
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 5th of January 2017 and I’m with Eric Horsham down in Warminster and he was a flight engineer. And he is going to talk about his experiences in life but particularly with the RAF. So, Eric what are you earliest recollections of life?
ESH: Well, every year we went off to Devon for a holiday at relations because my people came from Plymouth and Devonport and this was held good right up until my teenage years. But early memories really, I suppose began at the age of about, serious memories, seven when we heard a very strange noise on one occasion and we all rushed out to see what it was. And do you know what? It was the R101 which was on its way to London and of course guided by the River Thames because that’s where we lived. In Plumstead. So it was logical. In fact the best view from Plumstead was the Ford Motor Works which had four big white chimneys and so that was a landmark. And following on from there it wasn’t until I was [pause] well I suppose fourteen really because that’s when I left school and they said, ‘Well, there’s a couple of jobs and one is — would you like to be a messenger in the Royal Ordnance factory?’ Which was right adjacent to Plumstead at Woolwich, you see and also the headquarters of the Royal Engineers. So that’s what I did for six months because it was destined that I should take the Railway Clerical Examination and join the rest of the family working on the railway. So that’s subsequent to that they sent me to train as a booking clerk. But I didn’t show up very brightly so they said, ‘No. We’ll send you to a goods depot.’ Which was rather like being banished, you know [laughs] because, can I be humorous at this point and say, well yes I was sent to a depot call Nine Hills which was in Vauxhall near Waterloo and on one side I had the Brand’s Essence and Pickle factory churning out pickle. And looking the other way we had horses because everything was delivered, delivered by horses, and drays at that. And on the other side we had the gaslight and coke company pushing out fumes so that was my early memory on the railway and then a friend of mine said [pause] well I told the friend of mine in the railway business that I was very unhappy there. So, indeed the friend said, ‘Well, we’ll try and rectify that,’ and apparently I didn’t shine as a booking clerk either. So they sent me to the estate office of the Southern Railway which was way out in the country at Chislehurst, but I digress because previous to — I mean we, talking about the year 1937. As you’ll appreciate if I was ’23 — born ‘23. ‘33, ‘37 that’s thirteen or fourteen years and 1939 came along. We can verify those dates and we had to join anything organised. All young people. So, but I think maybe I’m a bit previous to that because I went along to the Air Defence Cadet Corps. This would be somewhere about 1937 at least. So from there of course we went on to the Air Training Corps which was very much in evidence at Woolwich because we were, had the run of the Woolwich Polytechnic, and the chief there was indeed given the rank of wing commander in the Air Training Corps. Wing Commander Halliwell. So, that’s where I first got my, sort of my aircraft experience and of course it was a very good base for workshop practice. We all started off wanting to be flight — to be aircraft fitters. Fitters and turners. And the very basic things that we did were of course in connection with Tiger Moths where you really had the history of aircraft from very early days, and we had to learn all about turn buckles and things which kept the wings in place. But of course as time went by, here we are in ’39 and we were getting heavy bombers coming in, and if you’d, you had to decide, you know, really what you wanted to do because you were going to be called up for sure. And state a preference. So of course I did. And that was to be a flight engineer. Now, as an aside to this, engineers in the Air Force — flying, got twelve shillings a day. Now, you, you know seven twelves is eighty four. That’s four pound forty a week which is not to be, not to be sniffed at. But of course we also had to join something anyway. So, off I went to, to be called up but unfortunately there was a problem because I’d had a medical earlier for call up and the doctor discovered that one leg, ankle or calf, was slightly different to the other one. And of course yes it would be so because when I was born it was in a splint up until a year, eighteen months which straightened it out but it never did quite catch up with the other leg. Anyway, they said, ‘No. You’re grade three. We don’t want you.’ So off I went back to the estate office and soldiered on. Filing I think was our main job then because the railway had a vast estate. However, ok, come twelve months I was getting pretty fed up so I went up to the local recruiting office and said, ‘You know, I’m available. And I’m partly trained as an engineer. I want to join the Air Force,’ and they said, ‘Well that’s alright. You’re in the Air Training Corps. You should be alright.’ So they sent me off to Cardington and, for a medical. Went to Henlow actually. Adjacent. Just down the road from Cardington. Saw the top brass and he said, ‘Well, jump up and down there,’ and so I did. And he said, ‘There’s nothing wrong with you, off you go.’ So back to an interview at Cardington. The very, very modern method of identifying people. You had all these puzzles in a book, and you went through the book. A hundred puzzles and things like a bit of algebra, you know. And I knew a little bit. Anyway, I got the question right and I was the only one in that class who got it. So the squadron leader who was interviewing, and he was loaded with gongs, of course to a young man I couldn’t take my eyes of these gongs. Anyway, he put me through all the paces and he had a civilian officer too, with him, in the interview. And in his room he had every kind of aircraft and I was to — aircraft recognition. So I did very well at that because we were well trained in the Air Training Corps. So off I went then back to civilian life and then a little while later got called up for Aircrew Reception Centre at Lord’s. So we had a, we were very honoured because we had to be kitted out in the Long Room which was famous as you know. We had drill on the famous turf. Now, that lasted about three weeks by which time we were fully kitted up and said, ‘Right. Off to Torquay you go.’ We thought that was jolly good because Torquay was a lovely holiday centre wasn’t it? Anyway, we did, I did eight weeks there altogether. And we learned administration and the law of the RAF and the time came when they said, well, you know, off to the squadron — no. Off to the big training centre you go. And I remember I slept the night on Bristol Temple Meads Station because that was it. We were going to St Athan in Wales. And the train service being what it was we did arrive at St Athan with two kit bags by the time we got there. And humped them all the way up to the camp which we thought rather naughty. Anyway, we went through twenty six weeks, I think it was, of training throughout every facet of aircraft construction and the essential things that one would have needed to know. Like you had to be au fait with a very complicated system of petrol tanks. Now, each wing of a Halifax had six tanks. And this had to be in flying whittled down from, so that your main petrol was in the mid-section, in tanks one and three. Funny enough on the test training board they said, ‘No, you really ought to have another think about this. Go back and think for another week.’ So, then I passed out and they put a little white flash in my cap and they gave me papers for the Number 1652 Conversion Unit which was that Marston Moor.
[Telephone ringing. Recording paused]
CB: So we’re just re-starting now with St Athan and the rest of the things that you were doing in training there.
ESH: Yes. I’ll go straight into leaving St Athan.
CB: What else did you do in St Athan? Hydraulics. What else?
ESH: Is that running?
CB: Yes.
ESH: Well, yes, you had your petrol system. You had the other power that was likely to be in aircraft which were accumulators. Now, not as you would think an electricity accumulator but this was liquid in a cylinder. Oil actually I think it was. And air was pumped in giving it a pressure and on selecting undercarriage down the accumulator would push it down. This is in the case of a Halifax which was either hydraulic or pneumatic. So the way to get services to operate was by his accumulator. But not only that of course because you did have [pause] now let me think. You had the port inner engine on a Halifax is the one that supplies power to your services and —
CB: Electrical power.
ESH: Yes. Some of it would have been electrical power.
CB: But also hydraulic.
ESH: And hydraulics had to be learned. Flaps were hydraulic. The other services control are foot and pedals by the pilot on the fin and rudder. And the elevators — well they would be hydraulic you see running a pipeline out. And flaps for instance. Fairly high pressure, well two and a half pounds I think were the standard pressure in the system but it was enough to push a big flap down against the airstream. And so electrics — you had to be au fait with the electrical services, and therefore you had to mug up on Ohm’s Law if you like in order to appreciate the power that you could get from electric motors. So, and then of course you had to know the different gauges of the stressed skin of the alclad which was a compound of the aluminium NG7. You see, the mind gets very hazy when it comes to the complete structure but you were able, by the end of six months, to walk through a mock-up of an aircraft with your eyes closed. You could have bandaged the flight engineer. He was the one who moved around and you were perfectly au fait with where the main spar came across so you could sort of jump over that. And of course the controls for your petrol were underneath the, what’s called the rest position which was a little sort of bunk for resting people. We didn’t go to sleep there actually but it was very useful. And then in the front of the aircraft of course you had the pilot with the wireless op immediately underneath him. And the navigator and the bombardier in the nose proper. So they, we were pretty well genned up by the time we left there. We could go anywhere blind folded within the air craft there and operate switches without thinking about it. So then they said, ‘Right. Here’s, here’s your ticket.’ You’re on your on your way,’ to a place called Pocklington — no. Sorry. Marston Moor. The sight of the famous battle actually was just down the road. And this was number 1652 Conversion Unit where all the crews got together as and made up as crews. Now, I hadn’t met our crew before then but we were very late. The mid-upper gunners and the flight engineers only met the crew, the other crew of four who’d come along from EFTS and their various ‘dromes where they had been instructed, to make up a crew. And it was strange because we assembled in the hall and the flight engineers and the gunners — mid-upper gunners, would be sitting in chairs and then in came the existing crews because they’d been flying Wellingtons which only required five people. And then — how do you find a pilot? They said, ‘Join up with somebody,’ so eventually, I think we were down to about two flight engineers and a chappie came along and said, ‘I need a flight engineer. You’ll be my flight engineer won’t you?’ And it turned out that he was a very very competent pilot. His name actually was, he was a Pilot Officer Francis then, who came from a village near where we are now called Stoke St Michael near Shepton Mallet. Anyway, he was quite stern. He always said that he’d seen our records but I don’t think he had. Anyway, he brought the crew along and said, ‘This is our flight engineer. Do you think he’ll be alright?’ So that was it. That was our crew. And so then we started training on the next day on circuits and bumps because this aircraft was totally new to our pilot. And while we’re on the subject of crew we had a very important chap in the crew who is of course the navigator. Now, we had actually in retrospect, having had thirty odd ops to prove himself, and we wouldn’t be here now if it hadn’t have been for Oscar Shirley, who was our navigator, because you could turn him upside down. You could have umpteen course changes. He knew exactly where he was. Because it could be very, I mean I heard of crews who had navigators that weren’t too good and that was curtains. However, we won’t dwell on that. But, and while we’re on crew our bombardier was fresh from the first few months of a teacher training course. He was called Johnny Morris but not to be confused with the comedian. And Alan Shepherd was our wireless operator. Now, Alan Shepherd came from Ringwood, off a smallholding. Wonderful chap really. Did a lot of good work after the war. Who else have we got to account for? Oh rear gunner. Yes. Rear gunner, another Londoner. I’m just desperately trying to remember his name. You wouldn’t believe it would you? [pause] I’ll remember it in a moment. We’ll come back to that. Now, who haven’t we accounted for? Mid-upper gunner. Jimmy Finney from Hull. Lovely lad who later got shot up on one operation and had to pack it in.
CB: And your bomb aimer?
ESH: Ron Alderton was the name of the rear gunner by the way. He is still with us as far as I know but when I phoned him the other day he said, ‘I’m losing my marbles. I can’t come and see you.’ So, there we were. Crew set up. And then of course we all had our bicycles with us. Off in the van and off we went to — I think we went by train from Green Hammerton to York. And then York out to Pocklington, and the station yard was just gravel in those days. And then of course we walked over to the ‘drome which was quite close. Each of us had two kit bags and a bicycle. But we knew we were going to Pocklington and it didn’t have a very savoury sort of record. In fact they said, ‘Now you’re here you’ll be lucky if you last three weeks.’ Which was a throwback from — 1943 was a desperate year and here we are in January or February was it of ’44, at the Conversion Unit. And Pocklington had, sorry not the Conversion Unit. Pocklington — the actual RAF station and there was definitely a pervading sort of sense that this was a bit dodgy, you know. However, we were led into operations in around about, just before D-Day. We’d done all our circuits and bumps and cross country’s and they let us down very gently on short trips to France. I mean the first trip we did was to a place called [unclear] which was a P-plane place. P planes were coming in thick and fast so Churchill had said to our boss Air Chief Marshall Harris, ‘Look get your lads on this. I want it stamped out.’ Because they knew the 6th of June was coming up. So we continued to do that until right through until well after D-Day. To various places which you wouldn’t be able to find on the map because they don’t give, you won’t find them as places like Foret de Dieppe. Which is unheard of, I mean, but there you are. And then we started ops didn’t we? And of course our accent was on night bombing. Can you imagine having a sheet of aluminium stood up against the wall and you gathered up in your hand and [pause] gravel? Now, you threw the gravel at the aluminium. Now that’s just what it’s like when you’re being shot. If you’re near a shot. Because all the shrapnel comes and hits the aircraft like that and that is getting just a bit too close for comfort. However, they were nights. Now, what you don’t, what you can’t see you don’t worry about do you? Even though it was seven or eight hours sometimes. Or five or six to the Ruhr. Because we were concentrating on the Ruhr. I mean Essen after we’d been there and some of the other lads had been there previously there wasn’t one brick standing on another. And that’s where Krupps the armament works were ruined, you know — finished. Because we were mainly at that time after [pause] I mean our targets were decided by the Ministry of Economic Warfare. And they said, ‘Right. Wipe out Germany’s oil and that will end the war.’ So that’s what we did. We went to all sorts of obscure places trying, in bulk, to wipe out an oil plant. Because, I mean, you’re looking at a complex in the middle of a small area of a village. Now it took a lot of aircraft to plaster it so we did a lot of this up and down the Ruhr. I mean there were so many places I won’t bore you with that. But that’s what we did. But also we went to one or two further places like Brunswick. Way across east to Berlin. And then Hanover, Soest, Osnabruck and they were very well defended. And of course the night fighters hadn’t quite been been nullified as they were a little later. So we had, I suppose a charmed existence. And one of the deadly things the Germans did was to position a gun at a fixed angle — called a shrage gun and it would come out and go straight for the port inner. Once you got the port inner — well that’s where your services came from. And there’s no way really you could put a fire out. You’d try by diving [pause] but no really we had a charmed existence I suppose. And then D-Day came along and in preparation for that the squadron was busy but we didn’t actually get over Normandy until, I think it was July the 18th 1944 when it was, there were troop concentrations around Cannes. Now, if you remember Montgomery couldn’t shift them and everyone was looking to him and saying, you know, ‘You’re going to be a failure aren’t you? You can’t. You’re army can’t do it.’ So they whistled up the Air Force east of Cannes where Tigers tanks had dug in in expectation of a bombing raid. and of course we were there 5 o’clock in the morning and it soon became obscured by dust and smoke. And really it was pretty terrible for the Germans I’m sure because they staggered out of their bunkers and that, having been bombed by I think it was a thousand aircraft. Not all at once but over a period of about half an hour. Your concentration was so great yes you could time them and of course this was, in effect, an army cooperation. We had to be very careful because the army had to lay down a yellow barrier of flares with a given margin which they decided was safe so — and I do remember on that occasion I think as we were coming — as we were going out on that raid as you’ll realise Cannes isn’t that far from England. They were coming back. So, quite amazing you know to see these aircraft coming back and you hadn’t got there. Now, this was daylight of course because they switched us from night after a time because we went on to daylight because of course if you can see something it should be, you should be more accurate. Now, we did go on right through the summer. We went to one P-plane place seven days running. Foret de Dieppe. If you can find it on the map. Because one operation was preceded by Mosquito. Now the Mosquito could — it was planned he would be on a fixed from England on the exact spot. So we were trundling away there getting towards — and the secret was when he dropped his bombs everyone else would do theirs. And of course unfortunately we got up near the target and one aircraft opened its bomb doors and dropped the bombs and of course everybody else did the same. So really that was — the idea was good but it didn’t work in practice. Whether the Air Ministry would like you to know that I don’t know. But yes, it was so. So, we were largely on P-plane bases but then we went on, as I say, to daylight. Oil installations. Because at that time it was really beginning to show that the Germans couldn’t really put enough in the field because they hadn’t got the petrol. So, mainly of course we were up at the Ruhr at places like Gelsenkirchen where there were oil installations and that more or less saw the summer out. But one operation did stand out for us and that was army cooperation with the Americans who were trying to push into the Ruhr and we hadn’t yet, they hadn’t yet done it but there were three towns. Julich, Duren and Eschweiler, and I think they are adjacent to the [pause] now what was the name of the forest?
CB: Ardennes.
ESH: The Ardennes, yes. Indeed. The Ardennes and these Germans had all their batteries concentrated in that area and they could dig in these Tiger tanks and they were very difficult. I mean they were very difficult to move. And the crews also were dug in and ready to come into action as soon as the raid had passed over. Anyway, we went through the target and on our way out and we must have wandered. At that time of course to nullify guns you dropped out metallic strip, Window, which really foxed the German radar. And they were pretty good on this radar. And we did wander around to one side on the way out. Out of radar — out of the Window cover and you could see. I was lucky I had a little dome and I could look out as a flight engineer to the rear and you could see these black dots coming up, but you didn’t know whether that one was going to follow that one but it did. And there was an almighty bang and so skipper Francis knew what that was so immediately put it into a dive. Now we were about fifteen thousand feet I think and we ended up diving and ended up at eight thousand feet hoping that the Germans wouldn’t be able to follow us down but the place was full of smoke and cordite. The smell of cordite. If you’ve opened up a firework or let it off you’ll smell cordite and that’s what, that’s what was filling up the aircraft. So you couldn’t communicate. Everyone had gone deaf so you had to wait for your hearing to come back. But being a flight engineer I was able to walk around because we were at level flight by that time. Previous to that we’d been pinned in our stations. The G-effect being such. And so the first thing I saw — the aircraft looked like a pepper pot on one side, the starboard side, and daylight was streaming out. No flaps. And unfortunately Jim Finney in the mid-upper turret was pointing to his leg and the shrapnel had gone through at the thigh which rendered him, his control of his foot etcetera to be nullified. So wireless op and bombardier got him out of the turret and laid him down in the fuselage, bandaged him up and they cut his trousers first in order to find out where the where he’s bleeding. And they did a good job on him because you know if a chap’s losing blood he’s losing life blood. So, anyway, the skipper said to navigator, ‘Give me a course for home.’ He gave him a course irrespective of what we were flying over and he pointed the nose in the right direction and off we went and we were soon back. I suppose at — oh yes it was awkward because there was a mist coming up and a fog but we were pointed towards Orfordness and the aerodrome there which had FIDO. Fog Dispersal [pause] Fog Incandescent Dispersal Organisation. So we were able to fly around once firing off all the red flares that we had so they should know down below that we hadn’t got radio, we hadn’t got brakes. But it’s a long runway and it was called [pause] There were two — one was at Carnaby further up the coast. This was Woodbridge. Straight in off the sea straight on the ‘drome. So it was getting pretty misty and it was closing in. November is a bad month isn’t it? Anyway, we got down didn’t we? And we managed to take up the full length of the runway, ended up on the grass at the end. But nevertheless we were off out of trouble. And along came, well they knew full well that this aircraft was damaged. Couldn’t talk to us. So they sent out the wagon and dear Jim was soon in hospital. And we, along with a couple, quite a few dozen others descended on the cookhouse for a supper, you know. Which we did eventually get because they didn’t expected all these people to come in 5 o’clock in the afternoon. And so what do you do? We’re down at Orfordness there in the east coast of Essex. They gave us tickets back to London and then back to York which was an excuse for everybody to spend the night in London. But I was lucky because I could get an electric train just down to Woolwich as it were and back home. We never got pulled up. None of us had hats. Well, I think, I think the skipper did because he was very particular about carrying his nice peak cap, you know. However — yeah, so we, but that’s only one of about six different aircraft that we had on the tour. Some of the numbers are in the logbook. But where we had different problems — for instance on one occasion we had a seagull in the engine nacelle which put that out of action. So of course you didn’t use that aeroplane the next day. We had so many we could have a new one every day if necessary. As I say, we had about seven. We got the undercart. That went down alright otherwise we wouldn’t be here would we? But it could be things like that which would be, could be very dodgy. And we eventually finished our tour on oil installations. Let’s see [pause] towards the end. Towards the end. Towards the [pause] October. October. Through Christmas. Probably about January or February of ‘45 and that was the end of our tour. And we had done twenty daylights and about thirteen night trips which clocked up something like four hundred, five hundred hours flying. Full stop.
CB: We’ll stop there for a —
[recording paused]
CB: So we’re just, we’re just doing a recap now which is on the damage on the aircraft.
ESH: Yes.
CB: So starting at the point of the big explosion. Then what happened and what was the effect?
ESH: Well I hope I can remember.
CB: That’s alright.
[pause]
ESH: Well we left the target area and unfortunately we may have erred to one side of the Window cover which of course blocks out their radar and nullifies their accuracy. But nevertheless they caught us up and in a flash there was an almighty bang and our hearing disappeared straight away and the skipper put it into a dive, And down we went. Down. Down. Down. Something like eight thousand feet I suppose before we levelled out and that was a relief but we were then, I was then able, as a flight engineer to move around and observe any damage and by jingo there was. Looking out the port side — the starboard side the flaps had disappeared. One important, very important thing. The whole side of the aircraft was peppered and daylight was, it was more or less a window. And our mid-upper gunner, now our hearing had come back and our visibility was quite goon— pointed to his leg and indeed he had caught, been caught by shrapnel right through his thigh from his turret. So that very shortly after our wireless operator and our bombardier came out and got him out of the turret and cut his trouser and stopped the flow of his blood. And we realised it was very urgent to get back to England because, fortunately our four engines are still turning over in spite of losing some major control of the aircraft, so on arriving at Woodbridge which was a mighty long ‘drome a mighty long runway and very wide too we had to circle. We had to tell the ground what was happening. And so there we were flying, running off red verey lights in case there were other aircraft in the circuit, but there was no issue. We did one. One circuit around the flying control and straight in to the funnel of the runway. Without — without radio we felt pretty helpless. The fog had closed in on the aerodrome now at this time but he was an A1 skipper and as I say one of his things that he was so good at was flying blind, he could fly in any condition. He got us down and we got Jimmy into the transport and away to the nearest hospital.
[pause]
CB: Was there any fire on the aircraft?
ESH: No. Fortunately we didn’t have fire. Which is a pretty terrible thing.
CB: So you had no, no hydraulics and you had no electrics. How did you get the undercarriage down?
ESH: Well, it’s heavy, it’s a very heavy undercarriage. Massive wheels on a Halifax. Six foot high nearly. If I remember rightly the hydraulics had gone which serves flaps, bomb doors, undercarriage and, actually what happened is [pause] there is another precaution because if your —
[pause]
CB: You could wind it down could you?
ESH: No. There was a precaution against it falling down which is called withdrawing the uplocks. This is a job that the flight engineer had to do. He would go down to what the rest position which is where our mid-upper gunner was. And there are two D rings. One each side protruding from the fuselage. The cable obviously comes through the back of the wing because the undercarriage would have been beneath the wing, and it was a simple system. Ok. You pulled the D ring which pulled a cable which released a sort of a gate bolt. This bolt, if you can imagine a gate bolt, held up the undercarriage. So the undercarriage would automatically fall down. So that’s obviously what the, as flight engineer, I did on approaching. We were fortunate in as much as that was all intact. I mean if the aircraft had lost its undercarriage earlier you not only would it have caused a lot more loss of fuel flying with an undercarriage down, total drag. But in this case no. The uplocks worked. Irrespective of any hydraulic system. And of course your warning lights came on here and there.
CB: Ok.
ESH: We covered that have we?
CB: You have. Yeah.
ESH: So therefore we got — we were on the ground, Jimmy’s off to hospital and we are left to go and find our supper again with another hundred bods as we used to call ourselves. The next morning we were given a pass to go back to Pocklington via London so everyone had a night in London if they couldn’t get home. We all seemed to arrive the next morning for the 10 o’clock up to King’s Cross, up to York and that was the end of that sticky situation.
CB: When you had a night in London where did you stay?
ESH: Well I was able to go back. Once we got to London I was able to go back to Plumstead to my folks, and one or two of the other crew had friends that they could call on. Or relations. In fact Skipper Francis had some relations down in Slough way. Now, Ron Alderton, the rear gunner, had Canadian friends temporary and he did a night of the rounds of whatever pubs he could find and night clubs. He had quite a roaring time. I mean we didn’t need to get a train before 11 o’clock from Kings Cross to get back to York. So, on the train back we were, you know, reminiscing. And I always remember I’d tried to write out something for the, for the skipper at the time when all our hearing had gone and it was an absolute shambles. Unfortunately, you couldn’t hear anything and I found I couldn’t even spell the word fuselage. What I should have done was “Jim hit.” Two words would have conveyed that but instead of that — in the event you do not act logically and you would find that you had difficulty in getting to grips with language. You could move about and you knew exactly what you should do but you couldn’t think it through. But we were all in the same boat weren’t we? We all lost our hearing for quite a time.
CB: So you —
ESH: But we got back. That was the thing.
CB: You experienced the initial shock. When did the secondary shock hit you and what was that like?
ESH: Well, we had a night’s sleep, as you will appreciate, in London and I suppose we were rehearsing the events in the train for five hours. But we well appreciated that we were very lucky. But I don’t think at that time that that sort of event had too much effect on a crew. We were all together weren’t we? Jimmy was unfortunate but he wasn’t killed. That would have been a terrible disaster. So therefore I think we’d already been used to five years of war. I mean I’m talking about ’39 onwards, you’ve already had four years and you became inured to stress, in effect. So although we went back over the ground again but we were as a crew, we were complete. We were very lucky.
CB: How long before jimmy rejoined you?
ESH: Jimmy, unfortunately was off to hospital in Oswestry and he was ruled out forever more as a flyer and we received then a young gentleman from Scotland called Onderson. He was very broad and I think mostly we didn’t call him Ian, I think we just called him Jock and he was quite happy with that. And he finished up something like five or six operations with us. He became one of us obviously.
[pause]
CB: Now, you were saying that you did thirty. In your tour there were thirty ops, twenty of them were daylight. How many of those were to do with the V weapons and what happened?
ESH: Well, as we said the V weapons and the P-planes. The V weapon was of course outside our control. It’s a rocket and you don’t hear it coming, you don’t know it’s left the ground even. And if you were anywhere near it then it could destroy half a dozen houses at one time. So we were mainly concentrating on P plane sites because you could flatten them. Until they put them on lorries and then of course you couldn’t find them. So, yes.
CB: So you were, you were in daylight but how easy or difficult was it to find the V1 initially and then V2 sites?
ESH: Well, I don’t think that we could ever find — the V1 for instance was secreted in the middle of a forest and certainly fighters could eventually have a go because they could see them and once we’d identified, or the Air Ministry had identified the location they knew what they were looking for on lorries. They would shoot them up but of course V2 was purely a mobile rocket. But once it was off it was off and it would perform a perambular and no one knew it had gone and no one knew it was coming. And there was just a terrible explosion and five houses could be — disappear.
CB: But the V1 sites, as you said, in forests — how effective would you say your endeavours were in dealing with those?
ESH: Well you want the truth. A question like where would you find the P- plane sites in a forest? All we had to go on really was what came back from our agents by wireless. That there was this activity in a certain place which the Air Ministry would identify, or the sight would be identified and it would be marked on our maps, as I say, as a very obscure village in Pas-de-Calais. The only thing we could do was mass bombing. In fact I don’t remember a site which wasn’t bombed on each occasion with less than three hundred aircraft. So that you hoped that within that aiming point you would destroy it. And I think we did a lot but not all.
CB: Saturation bombing.
ESH: Yes. That was the idea. Saturation bombing [pause] Stop.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: Now, some of your endeavours at bombing these V1 sites perhaps were more effective than others. Was there one site you went to several times?
ESH: What? A V1?
CB: Yeah. In Dieppe.
ESH: Yeah. Foret de Dieppe. Did I not mention earlier?
CB: No. So, just, just cover that can you? The fact you went several times.
ESH: Oh yes indeed.
CB: Why did you go to that several times?
ESH: Yes. In order to mitigate this nuisance of the V2, V1s of which many thousands were being aimed at England at the time on a fixed track. One morning, in fact five or six mornings continuously we searched out a fixed ramp in a forest called Foret de Nieppe. Which of course is in the Pas-de-Calais, if you can find it. And it took thousands of tonnes, must have done, to obliterate that site. But it was, it wasn’t able to fire off these V1s in rapid succession because, you know the Germans were very thorough and got it to a high state of proficiency but we did concentrate for many weeks and months on finishing off these P-planes because it was aimed at civilian population.
CB: How many times did you actually see V1s flying towards Britain on your way to the target?
ESH: Well fighter pilots did of course but not, not us.
CB: You were too high up, were you, to see them?
ESH: Yes. I mean they didn’t, they came in at about two thousand feet so I can’t say I saw one. But I saw the damage and I experienced a V2 standing on Albany Park Station which was on the, what’s called the Dartford loop line. Bexley Heath, Barnehurst and down there. And I was standing on the station and this thing dropped a quarter of a mile away and I had to ask the station staff what that was. I mean, you know, I didn’t see it. If I’d have gone along I’d have seen a row of houses demolished but that. No.
CB: And what was their reaction to your question?
ESH: Who?
CB: The railway people.
ESH: Well he sort of said, ‘Where have you been?’ Because it was — this is not live is it? Well he wondered where I’d been not to know that London was being plastered with P-planes bombs. That sounded by the way like a common 6oo cc motorcycle engine.
CB: And you weren’t able to tell them what you were doing to counter this. You weren’t able to explain what you were doing, to the people in London.
ESH: No. Well they could see —
CB: Bombing.
ESH: They could see I was in uniform.
CB: Yes.
ESH: But they were so busy with their ordinary lives that I was just one of two million servicemen. It didn’t rate more highly than that.
CB: Right. Ok.
ESH: Pause?
CB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So what other events were noteworthy.
ESH: Ah well, now what comes to mind straightaway is on the way in to a target to see an actual aircraft hit. And you must remember this has got a full bomb load of what ten [pause] what had we got — five twenty thousand pounds of TNT going up as well as the fire bombs, and it’s the most horrifying experience. But I do remember that occasion when — and the skipper was quick to point out that the Germans did send up what they called Scarecrows. But I’m sure this would be more than that because the whole sky around that aircraft was just bits, black bits in the sky. Now, you see a Scarecrow couldn’t put up that much material could it? I don’t think so. I think this was a very salutary experience but you didn’t dwell on it because, well, you know, it could be happening at night time and you never knew anything about it.
CB: So we’re talking about night time now are we?
ESH: No. Night time, other than someone standing and throwing grit at your aeroplane that was the only indication you would have had that there were some shells very close by, but you see what the eye doesn’t see the heart doesn’t grieve. Although you might feel the effect of it, especially if you’d another aircraft in front of you you’d be perhaps very difficult as a pilot to maintain your position because you’re right in his slipstream. And there’s a slipstream of four engines just in front of you. I mean there were so many aircraft in the sky that it’s a wonder and in fact we lost a lot of aircraft because of collision. Indeed we did if the truth is known. No, there’s a bit of variation. We also had some trips with mine laying. Now, what happens? Mine laying. Well we had a chap from the navy came up and showed us exactly what’s going to happen because these things are quite weighty. I think they weighed about a matter of hundred weights and I think the maximum we could carry would be two. But there would be a whole squadron perhaps, or a lot of aircraft from other stations, all on the same business, and so off we went out across the North Sea and in to the Baltic. We had to pass over an island called Bornholm. Now, how far it is into the Baltic I don’t know, not very far perhaps because we were after this shipping route between Swedish oil coming down to feed the German factories. But I do remember dear old Bornholm put up some ack-ack you know [laughs] as though they could catch us with it. One little gun you know. It was a bit of humour in a not too humorous event. But that made a change from flying over the Ruhr because actually the first time I saw the Ruhr at night, well you’d never believe it. We came into the south of Ruhr and there was a bank of searchlights for the next fifty miles. Up and curving around. And, you know, when the chaps had said you’ve got to avoid searchlights I can understand because once you get pinned or —
[Mobile ring tone. Recording paused]
CB: So we’re talking about in the Ruhr and the way they would have, the place was defended.
ESH: Yes. Right.
CB: And how they were able, in the dark to track where people were going.
ESH: Well if I describe the scene.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: The first time you saw these early night trips that we did it took a bit of getting used to. And the first time I saw searchlights. Now, if you can imagine Kiel up in North Germany. Right around and come down through the rest of the Ruhr down to [pause] what town would be the south of the Ruhr?
CB: Stuttgart. Stuttgart.
ESH: Stuttgart. And Nuremberg. That is something like fifty miles isn’t it? Or more.
CB: More.
ESH: A solid ring of thousands of searchlights, it was like day. And it curved actually from the north right down. Facing England to the south. Stuttgart. Nuremberg. And even further south than that I think. A solid — banks of hundreds. And if, if you got near one they had one particular, in groups, they had one particular searchlight which was extra powerful and it used to show up blue, and, well we did get coned on one occasion. We were lucky because very often you couldn’t get out of it. There were so many and they could sort of follow your track and there was this master searchlight and everybody else was following. And what we did, we managed to get out by just diving and weaving. And I suppose we lost a few hundred feet and you had to make that up because you had a flight plan. You know, you didn’t depart from that flight plan. You just didn’t go off on your own doing your own thing. That was certain, certain tragedy that would be because you had whole squadrons of night fighters still and they were still able to fly. Although, they couldn’t do the training because they hadn’t got the petrol, so the petrol bombardment was beginning to show. I mean we’re talking now about mid-’45 aren’t we, you see? Sorry —
CB: ’44.
ESH: ’44. From ’44 to the end of ’44 it was gradually having an effect on German oil production, synthetic oil. And of course being as they were small patches they were very difficult to find. I mean, you might have one oil refinery and its ten miles from the nearest town. Now, you’ve got to be very accurate to get anything delivered to that site and — if you could get there, you know. But of course the German fighter production was going down so fast that I think we had a charmed existence from nineteen — from June ‘45 really to, or September ’45 to the end of [pause] ’44 to the end of ’44. I mean we were very busy D-Day time for the next three months, and then it sort of slackened off because you were limited to what you could do in the way of army cooperation. In fact the army didn’t want the Air Force to take full credit for having liberated Germany. So [pause] but raids were still being, operations were still being carried out by the squadron right through to mid-‘45. Or ‘til D-Day.
CB: You talked about the intensity of searchlights. What effect did that have on the air bomber’s ability to identify the target?
ESH: Well, searchlights. Yes. But you had visual and of course later in — from D-Day onwards the squadrons were equipped with H2S which was radar with the ability to show up features on the ground. To be able to distinguish between water and land. Now, if an oil refinery was situated just off a river that aiming point would certainly be able to be calculated and it left an aiming point for a whole squadron of aircraft marked by Pathfinders. You didn’t go on your own. It was, at that time, after D-Day, everything was Pathfinders and they would blaze the trail and you’d have a Master Bomber and he would come through your RT. I remember one occasion when the Main Force was given a name so it would come out rather like this. ‘Widow 1, Widow 1 to Main Force. Bomb the red TIs.’ And then a minute later, ‘Widow 1 to Main Force. Bomb the yellow TIs.’ Because of bomb creep.
CB: TI being target indicator.
ESH: Target indicator. Yes. So you had a whole spectrum of colours. Red. Green. Blue. Yellow. And they could be changed rapidly by RT from the master bomber to the main force so that he kept, you kept pace with bomb creep and you became more effective with that. In fact very effective in the end. I mean such people as Wing Commander Cheshire as he was then would be up the front there giving the, giving that RT direction.
CB: Would you like to just explain what is bomb creep? Bomb creep. What is it?
ESH: Bomb creep. Yes. What happens is that [pause] it creeps back rather than on to the target. How it happens — I suppose if you’ve got a conflagration then bombardiers could think that that was where you should be aiming. So a lot of aircraft, I mean, don’t forget there are five hundred aircraft on this job so that some of them would think that was the target. But, so the Master Bomber had to keep reminding people that it was creeping back and it shouldn’t do. He’s got to go on to his new target indicators. And he changed the colour of course. So you knew what to look for. Otherwise your bomb load was nullified.
CB: Ok.
ESH: Go on to [pause]
CB: Yeah go on. So we’ll stop there for a mo.
ESH: Yeah then —
[recording paused]
ESH: I said Cora’s mum and dad yes.
CB: Yes. On a slightly lighter note clearly as a crew you had your, and personally you had your social side. So what did the crew do, and what did you do individually?
ESH: Well, that’s what I did individually and didn’t take any part in any social activities with the crew.
CB: Right. So what did you do?
ESH: I didn’t go drinking, you see.
CB: No. So what did you do?
ESH: I spent most of my time in York.
CB: Right. And what did you find there?
ESH: This family.
CB: Right.
ESH: And I was made like a son.
CB: Were you?
ESH: So I didn’t — we all went as a family to the theatre one evening and we saw the famous lady who had just started acting. She was in, “Last of the Summer Wine.” Very famous. You chaps have got memories haven’t you?
CB: We’ll latch on to her later. So, but but the family —
ESH: I’d better jot her name down while I think of it.
CB: Ok. Yeah. So you —
ESH: Thora Hird.
CB: Yeah. So the family was in York. What did the father do?
ESH: He was invalided. He couldn’t do anything because of the start of silicosis.
CB: Right, but what was his trade?
ESH: That was — he was in charge. He had his own firm of plasterers.
CB: Right.
ESH: So I’ll go on to that. I’ll just make a quick note, Thora Hird.
CB: And they had a son and a daughter.
ESH: Yeah. Yeah. Famous restaurant in the middle of York. Still there.
CB: But you’d go to that as well would you?
ESH: Yeah. I’ve got it. Yes.
CB: Go on.
ESH: Ok.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: Live?
CB: Yes.
ESH: We were talking about the social life on the squadron. Well, as I say I think I was eighteen when I, nineteen when I arrived there, and went out into York and I met this delightful young lady called Cora. And she said, ‘Well, if I’m going out with you my people want to see you.’ So I went along and they became my mum and dad for that time. And her dad was a, had a plastering firm but he was suffering then from, I think, the start of silicosis and he couldn’t work but nevertheless they went out of their way to look after me, and of course the extra attraction was of course la belle Cora. And at that time there was a show going in York and who should be a young actress was Thora Hird. But I don’t think she remembers that herself now, bless her. She’s passed on hasn’t she? But Mr Parker’s claim to fame as a plasterer was the ceilings, for instance, in Betty’s Bar. Now Betty’s Bar is very well known in York and it’s still there. And if you go down into the basement you will find a mirror which is now cut up into three parts. And pretty well every famous flyer has got his signature on the glass having done with a diamond ring. And they’re all there. I think you’ll find Group Captain Cheshire left his mark there. And quite a lot of others passed through but they’re all on this mirror. So that’s down in the basement of Betty’s Bar. It’s worth going down to see. There’s history galore down there. So they looked after me like a mother and father, not withstanding the fact they had a son in the Middle East. With the 8th Army I think it was. But of course being really a dangerous occupation I had no business stringing this girl along. I mean I was her first boyfriend and you know the effect that has on young ladies. So, the crew were very good. They didn’t question me as to where I was spending all this time you see. Which brings us to —
CB: How you broke it off.
ESH: How we —?
CB: Broke it off.
ESH: Oh yes. I mean, we used to have, our famous perambulation was around the wall of York. And, you know it took quite a time so, and broke her heart I’m sure, but it had to finish. It would had been too traumatic otherwise. And we were then left to finish our tour which, there again was mainly oil installations. But come September of ’44 the CO called us all into the briefing room and said, ‘Now we’re all going to France tomorrow. We are bringing petrol to the army.’ The army was fighting at Eindhoven and so they said, ‘You are going to be loaded up with petrol,’ which they did. Each aircraft. Two hundred and fifty, five gallon cans stacked along the fuselage and tied in so they didn’t bounce around. Off we went to a German field which they’d laid out what’s called Sommerfield tracking to stop an aircraft or aircraft and vehicles bogging down in a puddle. So that was rather jolly. I mean there we were — flew a hundred feet all the way. And really that’s one of the nicest things to do, you know. Flying low level where we’d see haystacks with pigs on top because Jerry had pulled the plug on the dyke. Very naughty of course but you know it really devastated thousands of acres. And we had to fly over that into Brussels. Well into an area of Brussels called Melsbroek which was just a grass field. And it was very enjoyable. We landed there and fresh air and went to the village and do you know what? There were grapes growing on the trees. Oh grapes. Well, I mean who wants to leave there? Anyway, this so happens, you know that we tried to get off the next day, I’m sure it was the next day. So soon you could be accused of organising this. But we oiled up the plugs trying to get out of a big puddle and there’s no way you’re going to get out of it because what the wheels do and they’re big, they just churn a great gap, pit in the soil. So therefore that was, we were stuck there until you get a fitter out with a set of plugs to put it right, and I think all four engines were oiled up. Anyway, that meant that we had three days in Brussels. So what did we do? The first day we piled into a local tram and went into Brussels where we stayed at the Gare de Nord Hotel. And I was the only one who had any money [laughs] you know, because they said now any money you’ve got to change it. You’ve got to, sorry we had to change it for the currency that was wartime currency. And so of course our money was soon gone staying at hotels. And we went in to one, oh yes we, I must tell you a little story here. We went in to one hotel and up to the second floor and it was a night club with an amphitheatre and a stage and events, you know. Acts taking place. But on the way up the staircase in a corner there were two six foot six American sergeants and they had a lovely carton of cigarettes, a big carton. And they were presumably flogging them off. I mean if they could get another carton like that they’d make a fortune because there were no cigarettes in Europe. In fact, people would give you their gold watch for a packet of cigarettes but that — now our rear gunner being a sort of international type said, ‘No,’ we must find, he’d come from Canada on, he was trained for something else in Canada because he talked about Montreal. And he said, ‘We must see an exhibition.’ And actually it wasn’t what I fancied but anyway we didn’t get that far because there was no exhibition. So we met this old boy in the road and Ron says, ‘Exhibition?’ So, he didn’t speak French perfectly. The chap was quite happy. This old boy. ‘Come with me. Come with me.’ And off we went with this chap down the main thoroughfare and down some back entrances, back places, back roads, alleyways to a pub. And this pub was run by this aged lady who sat at the high stool and dished up what went, passed as beer. And there were us. We were all sitting around on stool, a continuous stool like in a queue. And I mean, you know, it was alright. A bit of light fare. And the skipper was there of course and he hadn’t taken his hat off that time. And in comes all th ese girls in bathing costumes. I mean, to eighteen year olds you know this is seventh heaven isn’t it? What’s next then? And they were sitting on our knees and some of them very shapely. And the skipper suddenly caught on, he said ‘Right. Here’s the gun. Out you lot.’ And we had to leave because it was a brothel wasn’t it? And he wasn’t, he wasn’t having his crew sullied by such goings on. So, that was, that was Brussels for me.
CB: So you got two black eyes and you couldn’t hear anything either.
ESH: [laughs] So. No. We had to make apologies to these young ladies and disappear. We would have liked to pass on perhaps a bar of chocolate.
CB: Of course.
ESH: But we didn’t go prepared. But it’s a pity. But Ron did — he went to a private family that night. I don’t know what the attraction was but anyway he did — no. Johnny Morris this is, ex schoolteacher. He obviously thought about it because he brought a bag of coffee back next time and made arrangements for it to be delivered to a particular curie. A priest at the local church who he had met somehow. But that’s the best we could do really. Normally you went in with your two hundred and fifty gallons. The army came up with a truck, unloaded [pause] and there we went off again. The next day with another load. So we were really kept busy bringing in something like two thousand gallons at a time for the army to use up at Eindhoven. Because they were six hundred miles from the port at that stage and just couldn’t keep going, you know. I thought I saw somebody moving out there but maybe I’m wrong.
CB: So did you carry, did you then later deliver any other kind of goods or was it only petrol?
ESH: Only petrol. But I believe later. Very soon. Our squadrons were engaged on dropping supplies to Amsterdam and it made a great impression on our Dutch friends.
CB: That was food. Operation Manna.
ESH: Yes.
CB: Yes.
ESH: We weren’t engaged on that but rather carried on with the last few trips into Europe.
CB: So when you come to the end of your tour what happened then to the crew?
ESH: Ah yes. Well, do you know on the aerodrome was an experimental department run by a squadron leader. And they, one of the problems with the Halifax was coring of the oil in the oil tank. Super cooling. And it was called coring. And every effort was being made, well funny enough in my tour I never came, never had the problem. I dare say we never flew in an icing. What you call an icing.
CB: Weather condition.
ESH: Yeah. You get icing conditions at certain heights and if you stayed in it it was very bad for the oil coolers but we managed to keep out of that. But a lot of experimental work was being done because a lot of the aircraft did — was affected. And so they, we worked for the experimental department there which was set up at Pocklington. Going on cross country’s with modified aircraft that in effect would fly through anything up to Scotland and back in the hope that we would be able to pinpoint the procedures to cure it. But unfortunately we had an aircraft, an aircraft engine go over speed for some reason so that rather folded up at that time.
CB: Which kind of engine was that?
ESH: Well, Halifax — a Bristol Hercules 100. That was the latest. But coring was a very difficult thing. So of course what was happening was that everyone was now asking us to be re-mustered. There was nothing for us to do except hang around. So —
CB: Was there an option of going on another tour?
ESH: Oh yes, that was always an option, yes indeed. But — and a lot of the chaps did but I think I was more anxious to go back to civilian life. But I was ‘Duration of Present Emergency.’ Or I was D of P E.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: And of course they were not giving out any commissions at that time. So there wouldn’t have been a lot of future in staying so I applied to be re-mustered.
CB: And what happened?
ESH: And then left Pocklington.
CB: Ok.
ESH: Being posted to whatever came up in the Air Ministry I suppose. And off we went then re-mustering at a famous station for the army in north Cornwall — north [pause] Catterick. Now, there was a little RAF station for re-mustering at Catterick in an ex-mine working. Anyway, my number came up eventually but in the meantime we were sent on indefinite leave. Now, I didn’t want to have to pay to go to the skipper’s wedding because train fare was quite expensive. But I gave his address on my 48. My seven day pass as it were. Or indefinite leave. The consequence of that will be explained a bit later.
CB: Right.
ESH: But from there I got a letter a little later being posted to the Isle of Man as an airfield controller. But it just so happened that my papers actually never got to my home. They got to the skipper’s address. Now, you can have a bit of a laugh if you’ve been in the service because this was six weeks later, or rather that was alright but it was the last seven days. I was absent without leave. But I turned up. I was on my way to the Isle of Man. Well, I got to the Isle of Man alright. Yes. And having got to the Isle of Man you got off at Douglas and, you know, looked at the local restaurant. Two eggs, steak and chips, that’s marvellous. Have some of that. So immediately dived in and had a good nosh as we used to say. And then you got a little local narrow gauge train up to the Isle of Man up to the north. Because I was going to be stationed at a little place called Jurby which was a good hopping off point for anybody going to or coming from Reykjavic. Which, I would then put three searchlights up to guide them in. But it was more disastrous from my point of view because what could the CO do? He has a chap seven days adrift. The first — I went to the guardroom and he said, ‘We’ve been looking for you. You’re seven days adrift.’ So, go up before the CO. Very nice chap. By the way first of all you have to be vetted by the station WO and he actually said, ‘Do you know I’m awfully sorry to have to do this but you’re up before the CO tomorrow.’ So, you march in, in the usual way with the, you know, left right left right left. Turn right. ‘So young man. What do you want to do? A court martial or do you want my punishment?’ ‘Well your punishment sir. Thank you.’ ‘Right. Seven days loss of pay.’ And do you know what? You can imagine the scene can’t you? Pay parade. And you announce yourself before the cashier’s table, ‘1869854 Horsham. Sir.’ And he would say, ‘Three and sixpence.’ This went on for weeks at three and six pence a week it takes quite a time to get to four pounds forty. Seven days pay you see. You can clue that if you like but its [pause] but indeed I think because we had a chap at High Wycombe and he was called Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Harris and of course they did think twice before they shoved the book at one of Bomber Harris’s boys. And I think I was saved by that because it’s a heinous crime in the air force to be AWOL anywhere. Anyway, we carry on from there because I enjoyed the time on the Isle of Man. Being in charge of the airfield. Not a lot went on but we did [pause] we were a home for stray aircraft and of course the station was very busy training the rest of The Empire Air Scheme for training navigators. And we would use, or they would use Ansons. So of course we had a squadron of Ansons to fulfil the contract. And of course my job, one of the jobs, mine and my crew — I had a crew by then of Scots lads that were setting up a parking area with glim lamps every day, because they were doing night flying, and these glim lights were fuelled by accumulators and shone a red light. And you had to put them in a certain order because then the aircraft on the way back knew where they were to park. And they used to get it in the neck if they ran over a glim lamp. Other than that when we wasn’t flying we were all in flying control and we used to do a shift where we had two and a half days off. They still do that in the police force apparently, here. Afternoon, next morning or night, off the next day and the next day and the following morning. So that enabled you to go and see the local sights. Peel Castle on the Isle of Man. And of course we did get busy aircraft and they would come in some awful times from Reykjavik and sometimes I was, what did they call it? Duty officer? Duty. Yeah. Duty officer. And I had to find them accommodation so I had to lay the law down. Pull rank on whoever was in charge of the blanket store so that these chaps had a night’s sleep and could get, we would — the cookhouse would provide a supper for them. That broke up your time. So, in effect, eventually they sent us back to the mainland. To top — I was stationed at Topcliffe which was an ex-Canadian station and underneath every table and ever chair was chewing gum [laughs] That’s how I remember the Canadians. But there was no flying going on which was a shame because we [pause] I was only thinking these chaps had applied for discharge and therefore I was in charge of an airfield with no aircraft. We kept the grass nice and tidy. But as I say we could go into, no, we couldn’t go in to Topcliffe for two eggs, steak and chips. It was unheard of. But what you could do is you could go to a local village called Topwith . Now, there are two brewers in Tadcaster. One is Sam Smith and one is John Smith. Now, you’ll know John Smith because his beer is everywhere but what we ought to have down here is Sam Smith’s which was thick and black. And it was as black as your coat. Black as night and it was the next best thing today to Mackesons. But you could get quite squeamish, not squeamish — quite drunk on it. So then you met up with a lot of other interesting aircrew and you absorbed their experiences, and then gradually, one by one, they disappeared. As I did one day. On the 2nd of January 1947, in the bleak midwinter. It was very bleak down south anyway and there had been a lot of snow around. One interesting side now, talking about cold. We were very cold in Pocklington so we could burn, burn bicycle tyres in the hut. But old Jim said, ‘Do you know what,’ Jim Finney that was then [pause] now wait a minute I’m wrong. Jim has already had that shrapnel in his leg. But anyway, there was another member in the crew. It must have been Alan Shepherd, the wireless op. He said, ‘I know. There’s a bottle of petrol over there.’ And somewhere someone had left a bottle of petrol. And it was a hundred octane. So he said, ‘Stick it in the stove to get it nice and warm.’ And it did. It blew the whole thing apart [laughs] Which wasn’t very clever was it? Anyway, we’ve left. We’re at Topcliffe aren’t we? And then, sooner or later, ok the 7th of January or thereabouts I found myself out on my ear having been discharged at, somewhere near Preston. And we asked for a taxi and do you know that’s the only time in my life so far that I ever have driven in a Rolls Royce. There was a very famous place near Preston. If it wasn’t Preston it was Southport where there was a big demob place. Anyway, that’s where we ended up, in a taxi going to Preston Station. And home on indefinite leave still. Well, no a fortnight wasn’t it then? Fourteen days and that was it finished. Now, the thing is then going back to the old firm. Now, I found myself in the railway estate office before long but they didn’t really want me I don’t think. They said, ‘You can go up to Victoria Station and go to the archives.’ Temporarily. So that was a fill-in job. Going back through papers going back to 1900 where people had to pay for a sort of fly privilege to bring a pony and trap on to the station property and they had to enter into an agreement. Time goes by awfully quickly doesn’t it when you’re demobbed? So I stuck with the estates office for [pause] until 1957. And I didn’t seem to be going anywhere much so I went out into the big bad commercial world. And went to a builder’s merchants called Roberts Adlard who were quite famous in the southern counties. Their headquarters were Southampton. I had this friend of mine who was a rep and that’s how I got there. But, and mind you I’d left London so it was a big change to go to work in Rochester Cathedral, Rochester, the ancient town on the Medway. Rochester Cathedral. Yes. And this builder’s merchants wasn’t going anywhere so Horsham said to himself, ‘Look. Hadn’t you better find a job with a pension?’ So I had experience in the estate office which was very similar to the housing department of Rochester City Council. And applied and got the job as a rent collector of all things. Going around collecting. They had five thousand houses all broken up in to thirty different schemes or so. So that enabled a transition from that to a more permanent sphere. And of course the only way you can get up the scale in local government is either by passing a lot of examinations or becoming a professional man, like, I don’t know, an accountant which is a good solid five years work. But no there we were at Rochester with several other ex-service people especially from the navy, being next to Chatham. And so we said, you know, ‘What about a rise?’ They said, ‘Oh no. No. No. We can’t give you that but if you take a certain examination there will be money in it for you.’ So the one I took was the simple one. It was the clerical division of local government. That is talking about local and central government. Writing an essay etcetera. And after six months we took the exam and we all passed. So we thought go and see the governor again now. A different kind of governor. And for passing the examination I think — I was paid five ninety in those days. So he said, ‘Yes. Well, you can go up to five ninety five.’ A five pound a year increase. So we’ve got to do better than this. So you had lists of jobs you see, circulated. And the next port of call was Maidstone Borough Council as a senior rentable assistant in charge of five rent collectors and proving the books every weekend. Now Rochester City was a purely written system. Now I got to Maidstone and it was all done by a machine called a Powers - Samas punch card accounting. And a dreadful business because my collectors used to go out with a run off. The rent for various properties. And they would put X Y Z here and they wouldn’t put anything on their sheet. So, immediately you were what –? Two pound fifty out. I used to be there at half past nine, 10 o’clock at night on a Friday balancing the books because you had, in effect, over thirty different schemes so you had to sit down and balance these schemes to find out where the error was. Which was good training wasn’t it?
CB: Amazing. Yes.
ESH: I remember the deputy who we worked under. You never saw the treasurer. He was the high and mighty. The holy of holies. But I saw the treasurer on one occasion. He said, ‘Horsham,’ he said, ‘How is it that you spent all this overtime?’ Four hours on a Friday night, you know. I said, ‘Well you know. The chaps put one thing on the sheet and then put another in the book.’ He said, ‘Horsham you really should consider the propriety of asking for overtime.’ It’s not much of a thing to a chap who’s just put four hours extra sweating his guts out. Anyway, that’s another aside isn’t it? Next thing is of course to get promotion isn’t it? And where did I go from there? Yes. I applied for a job in the County Council’s office, in the planning department. Which is where I ended up in 1978. Yeah. 1978. And then took a sort of early retirement.
CB: How old? How old were you when you took early retirement?
ESH: In ‘78. I was born in 1923.
CB: Oh right.
ESH: ’23.
CB: Fifty five.
ESH: Just short of sixty. Oh there’s a bit more to come isn’t there?
CB: Go on then.
ESH: Yeah. Well then [pause] I go back, to retrack a little bit. Going back to my days at Maidstone Borough. Wasn’t getting much anywhere and a friend of mine, who lived adjacent to us said, ‘Why don’t you come into the poultry business with me?’ He said, ‘We could then step the production.’ Because he was, he was managing single handed two thousand layers. So we promptly put some new housing up and I put all my wealth into it and we ended up with eight thousand head of poultry. Not quite as big as JB Eastwood who came along and said, ‘Look you chaps. I don’t care, I’ve got millions of birds. And I don’t care if I only get a farthing a head. I shall still make a profit.’ Which was quite true but it was disastrous for us because we couldn’t compete with that although we did very well. I mean we had a neighbour a few miles away and he was able to keep five thousand which was less than we had. And he could work in the mornings and take all the afternoons off and play golf. That’s what he did. We thought that’s a good idea. But we were saddled with our eight thousand and with fowl pest in the offing if we didn’t look after it then we’d be sunk. Nobody else was going to look after it. So you put in a fairly, a fairly full day. Eight till five minimum. But it was very good experience because it sort of taught me that come what may I could always get a job because you’ve got some skills. Especially you’d be very valuable to a poultry farmer if you could go in and say, ‘I can go in and look after ten thousand.’ He’d say, ‘Well, you know, I’m like Mr JB Eastwood. I’ve got millions.’ But nevertheless it was the same principal. So we didn’t make a fortune but we didn’t lose our shirt. I say we being collective. And then what did I do next? Well, I went back to the old firm didn’t I? Back to local government. Into the planning department this time, of the County Council. And my draughtsmanship experience came in very handy because we dealt with maps all day long. And so in 1974 I got the most marvellous job because the ministries were all on to local governments and County Councils to find out how many, what land have you got. You don’t even know what you’ve got to build houses on. And he said, ‘Well Horsham. The job’s yours. And we will depict it on a twenty five hundred scale ordnance survey sheets,’ which was a bit better than what you get on your deeds, you know. You could even show a rainwater pipe on a twenty five hundred scale. And Kent had forty seven, forty eight District Councils which I had to visit one after the other because if you didn’t carry the local authority with you you’d be sunk. They hated County Council. And they hated them because they put extra on their rates didn’t they? So that was a very enjoyable job. So thirty nine, forty, forty one, forty two [pause] No. What do I say? 1974 — 5 — 6 — 7 - 8. It took four years to do but at the end of the time we could show in the planning department that we had fifty two thousand units of accommodation each housing three people. That was your capacity then but of course a lot of it was land that you wouldn’t want to release straight away. I mean there was something like fifteen, twenty acres at Folkestone on the golf course. I know because I lived looking over these lovely green fields but you couldn’t release it all at once but that was my job.
CB: And you enjoyed it.
ESH: I enjoyed that. I never — it’s a time when I was glad to go to work because it was so, it was my job and it was interesting and I had to fulfil this promise made to the governor that it would be finished in a certain time, you know. And then we, we retired officially.
CB: When?
ESH: In 1978. 1978. Yes. Yes and went off to live in Cornwall for seven years. Froze the pension which was the thing to do. So I froze mine for another eight years so I had to go and get a job to keep the wolf from the door.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: Which I did. In Cornwall.
CB: Doing what?
ESH: Well, I saw an advert in the paper to the effect that, “Handyman wanted,” and they gave the telephone number and it turned to be at what was the Ritz Cinema which is now a bingo hall. And the idea was that I was going to look after all the maintenance. Well, it was rather nice to do something different if you’ve done the other jobs for forty years, you know. So I did that for two or three years. The firm was called Mecca. You’ll know Mecca. They’ve got them everywhere of course. All your Ritz cinemas now have gone to bingo halls. I had to do many things. Change all the lights and there was a lot of lighting. Also you had an emergency system on what was it? Ten volt accumulators which you had to cut in if your mains failed you had your own generator as well. So you had that system and you had emergency lighting if all else failed. So I enjoyed that job really.
CB: ‘Til when?
ESH: About three years later. Right up until about 1981. In that time my and a crew of two or three lads we painted the whole of the inside of the cinema including the ceiling. Which pleased the powers that be because they said, ‘Well done Horsham. We will send you to Tenerife for a fortnight for you to recover,’ [laughs] So that was something that came out of the blue. Yes. You see every year they have competitions and whoever wins the competition probably wins a place to summer holiday. And this time it was Tenerife. So there were about a hundred of us went off to Tenerife. All found, you know. Very nice indeed. Now, you wouldn’t get bonuses like that in local government of course. Since then I haven’t done much of anything have I?
CB: Throughout this time you were —
ESH: Hmmn?
CB: Throughout this time you were supported by this lovely lady. Ellen.
ESH: Yes.
CB: Where did you meet her?
ESH: I met her the first day I went to work for the railway. She was going on the same train. There is a station south of London called New Cross. So that people from further down went up to New Cross on the train and then down to where the estate office was evacuated. It was at Chislehurst. Now there was a big house at Chislehurst called [Sidcup?]. And it was on an elevated position and there’s the railway coming up and there’s the tunnel. Elmstead Woods Tunnel. So that’s, I met her in the train and she was busy there with her needles and you know sticking her little fingers stuck up like that click click click. And so that’s how it started. Her and her friend actually. Her friend was called Winnie Glover and I suppose she thought, ‘Well, she’s done alright for herself,’ [laughs] And that’s, we’ve been going ever since.
CB: When did you marry?
ESH: 25th of May 1946.
CB: And how many children have you had?
ESH: Two girls.
CB: So one’s called Gillian.
ESH: One’s Gillian. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
ESH: And she trained and became a teacher and married a headmaster. And then she went, they went off to Hong Kong and taught for seven years. And now she lives in an old mill on the Vienne River just outside Chauvigny. Whereas Alison trained as a nurse here and she trained in Weymouth and Dorchester and then went on to the hospital at Warminster. Hence the reason that we’ve came somewhere near her in old age.
CB: And she married a —
ESH: She married a —
CB: A doctor?
ESH: A sergeant in the MOD police. A young sergeant who is now or rather shocking really some year ago he went in one Monday morning and they said, and he has twenty five years’ experience as a policeman and by that time as I say, he was a sergeant. No. She didn’t marry a sergeant then but he became a sergeant. And they said, ‘We don’t want you anymore.’ Made him redundant, just like that. So, but funnily enough he still works as an instructor for the police. Driver. He trains their drivers and that’s what he’s doing today. Alison’s just finishing up her last eighteen months as a nurse.
CB: Well I think many many thanks, Eric.
ESH: Pardon?
CB: Many thanks, Eric for two and a half hours of interview. And absolutely fascinating.
ESH: Well it’s one man’s experience isn’t it?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Eric Horsham
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASymondsHorshamE170105, PHorshamES1602
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:07:40 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Eric Horsham was born in East London in 1923. Leaving school at 14 he was a messenger at the Royal Ordnance Factory before working for the railways. In 1937 he joined the Air Training Corps and learned about aircraft maintenance. On his first attempt to join the Royal Air Force he failed the medical but a year later was accepted for flight engineer training.
Eric describes his basic training in London and Torbay then recollects his technical training at RAF St. Athan. He then went to 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Marston Moor and joined his Halifax crew. In 1944 they were posted to 102 Squadron at RAF Pocklington where there were told that they wouldn't last three weeks.
Eric and his crew carried out a vast range of strategic bombings including daylight operations on V-1 sites, night operations on The Ruhr and Essen, night and daylight operations to oil targets, minelaying in the Baltic. They also provided tactical support in support of Allied troops near Caen and in the Ardennes, where they were badly damaged by a fighter and the mid-upper gunner received serious injuries. After landing at RAF Woodbridge in fog using FIDO he was hospitalised and did not fly again. The crew also supplied petrol to troops in Belgium, enjoying the low-level flying on these trips
Eric describes the sound of shrapnel hitting the aircraft, recalls a bomber exploding in flight, but dismisses the Scarecrow theory. He describes the use of Schräge Musik against the bombers; how search lights in the Ruhr operated, the use of H2S and how the master bomber controlled the rest of the formation.
At the end of his tour Eric remustered and was posted at RAF Jurby as airfield controller. From there he went to RAF Topcliffe and was demobbed in January 1947. Eric went back to the railways for ten years before working in local government. He retired in 1978, moving to Cornwall. While at RAF Pocklington he dated Cora noting that her parents made feel like a son. But he then ended the relationship because, with his own life in such jeopardy, he thought it was unfair on her. After the war he married Ellen, who he had met when starting his first job with the railways.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Andy Fitter
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Bedfordshire
England--Devon
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man
Wales
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
France
France--Ardennes
France--Caen
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Nieppe Forest
Germany
Germany--Essen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Atlantic Ocean
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Denmark
Denmark--Bornholm
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1923
1937
1939
1940
1944-01
1944-02
1944-07-25
1944-09
1945
1946-05-25
1947-01-02
1957
1974
1975
1976
1977
1978
1981
102 Squadron
1652 HCU
Absent Without Leave
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
crewing up
demobilisation
FIDO
flight engineer
forced landing
H2S
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
love and romance
Master Bomber
military living conditions
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Pocklington
RAF St Athan
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Woodbridge
recruitment
runway
searchlight
tactical support for Normandy troops
target indicator
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
Window
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1026/11398/AMcVicarK151222.1.mp3
8dbe392451014b9a5358deb7dce3dd85
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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McVicar, Kenneth George
K G McVicar
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken McVicar (1810515 Royal Air Force). He served as a 'spare bod' air gunner with 619 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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McVicar, KG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: Ok. So my name’s Pam Locker and I’m in the home of Mr Kenneth George McVicar and the date is the 22nd of December 2015.
KM: Yes.
PL: And I’d just like to start, Ken, by saying an enormous thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command Trust for talking to us.
KM: Right.
PL: So we’ll start our interview. So I guess the first question would be to just ask you how you became involved in the first place.
KM: Right. Well, up to — I was a young man at, living in my home in Llanelli, South Wales and I decided I’d join the RAF. And unfortunately for me, for things that went afterwards they took a long time to contact me and I joined the RAF in, I forget now when it was. Anyway, I joined up and was sent to ACRC, which is the Bomber Command course at St John’s Wood, London and I stayed there for about a month and eventually I was posted down to Neath in Wales, which was only twenty miles away from my home. Anyway, I stayed at that, I did the ACRC course of six months and then I got posted again. And I was posted to RAF Sealand where I did some flying on a Tiger Moth for a fortnight but the weather was not good and I didn’t solo or anything like that. I went on to Heaton Park, Manchester where I was supposed to be going abroad with the, to continue the flying experience you see. But they had too many gunners and too many pilots and not enough gunners. So I decided I’d be a gunner even though it wasn’t my intention to be a gunner, I was. And I left that school and went up to Dalcross near, well what is, the airport for up that way, you know, in Scotland. And six weeks later I was a fully qualified gunner. So then I —
PL: So what was your training like?
KM: The training. Well shooting from the back of an Anson, sat in the mid-upper turret and two guns. Firing at a drogue which was drawn by another plane, well. I shot away and eventually I shot the wire which connected the drogue.
PL: So there was another plane.
KM: Yeah.
PL: Flying with wires coming down.
KM: Yeah.
PL: Holding on to a door.
KM: A drogue. A drogue.
PL: A drogue.
KM: Yes.
PL: Right. And you - and that was your target?
KM: That was my target, yes. I shot at this and eventually I shot the wire which was pulling it, see, and the drogue flew off and not seen again. I finally passed out as a sergeant. I was posted to Barford St John in, near Banbury and commenced training with Wellingtons when I met my first crew. And that was the pilot — Flying Officer Adams. And the navigator, Flying Officer Eddie Preedy. Staff Sergeant Gunner was from Canada and he was a bomb aimer. Sergeant Teddy Knox was the wireless operator. And Sergeant Jock Milne — the mid-upper gunner. I first met my first wife and got married in 1945. I continued my training and first sent to Swinderby to train on Stirlings and Lancasters until 26th of March 1945. Then I went to Woodhall Spa, you see, and that’s when I joined 617 Squadron as rear gunner. But as they had plenty of spare gunners there and we were flung off the squadron and went to 619 Squadron. Well the war was coming to an end, I was posted to Anglesey where I was classified, re-classified as a sergeant and ground crew, and as I was a clerk in civvy life it wasn’t long before I became a clerk in the RAF. I returned - while in India I was sent to Yelahanka, an aerodrome near Bangalore and remained there until I was discharged on the 17th of the 3rd 1947. I returned home to Wales and lived there with my parents where I applied to join the Metropolitan Police — which I did. And on the 17th of the 2nd my warrant number was 130491, issued and I went to Hendon to train as a police officer. My first posting was at Stoke Newington and I stayed there for a while until I went to Edgware where I qualified as a driver until I was promoted to sergeant having passed the examination, stationed at Paddington Green. The old Paddington Green. Later promoted to station sergeant and posted to Golders Green. And from there I became an inspector and I stayed at Enfield most of the time until I retired after having completed about twenty eight years.
PL: Amazing.
KM: Yeah.
PL: Amazing.
KM: And then of course by that time I’d met Josie and we eventually started living together and got married in, I forget now —
PL: 1980 was it?
KM: 1980.
Other: It wasn’t. It was 1974.
PL: ’74.
KM: ’74. Yeah. So that’s about a brief description of my life, oh aye —
PL: That’s a wonderful start. Can I take you right back.
KM: Aye.
PL: To the beginning.
KM: Yeah.
PL: And was there, what attracted you to the, to the RAF? What did you, did you have history? Did you have family history?
KM: No. I don’t have any family history. It’s just that I wanted to be, join the RAF. I always wanted to join the RAF from way back.
PL: From being a boy.
KM: Yeah, right.
PL: Right. Fantastic. And when you, your first squadron that you were involved with.
KM: Yeah. 617.
PL: 617 Squadron. How did you all, how did you all meet? Were you —
KM: Well we were posted to the 617 and then we had a lot of — I wanted to stay on 617 but they wouldn’t have me because I was a good shot, see, in the air. And that’s when they decided to get rid of me and there we are.
PL: There you are. So what actual active service did you see? Would you like to tell me about some of your experiences actually as an air gunner?
KM: I was an air gunner but I didn’t go on any trips or anything. I just sat in the back.
PL: Right.
KM: And —
PL: When you say sat in the back.
KM: Yeah.
PL: What do you mean by sat in the back?
KM: Sat in the turret.
PL: Right.
KM: Turret swinging to the left. Swinging to the right and shoot up. Of course the big bomb came along and there wasn’t any room for us then.
PL: Right .
KM: And as there more pilots and gunners than they wanted, nobody wanted me. So I went as a spare bod to 619 Squadron and we did there for a while, until the war was finishing then.
PL: So you did all that training.
KM: Yeah.
PL: And then you never had the opportunity to —
KM: To go and fire. Never.
PL: What did you think about that?
KM: Well I was hurt, yeah. Did all that training to be a gunner and then never went up in the air. So there you are.
PL: So what sort of period of time was that in the war? So this coming towards the end of the war?
KM: The war.
PL: Right. Ok. Ok. Ok.
KM: Yeah.
PL: So, your first wife. How did you meet her? Was she in the WAAF?
KM: Well, when I went to Barford St John, I met her. She was one of the girls that, you know, go up to and dance and things like that.
PL: Amazing. So are there any other experiences? I mean I’m very curious to hear what it was like on, you know, being at the airfield. Were you based at the airfield?
KM: Yeah.
PL: When you were doing your — ?
KM: Training.
PL: Right. Yeah. So what was that like for you all?
KM: Well it was alright I suppose. Waiting, the training of course. Jump in a plane and go off flying somewhere. We all had — my logbook. Flying logbook. Here it is. There we are.
PL: Thank you. Wonderful. Gosh. So these are all the times that you —
KM: Flew.
PL: You flew. And so when you, when you actually flew, were you, did you have to be in the gunner’s turret?
KM: Yeah. Turret. Yeah. All the time.
PL: That was always your —
KM: Always my station.
PL: Right.
KM: Yeah. In the turret.
PL: Right.
KM: Oh aye.
PL: And what was it like? Did you, did you feel claustrophobic at all?
KM: No. Not at all. Not at all. I felt at home.
PL: Really.
KM: Really at home.
PL: So you had the whole world at your feet.
KM: Yeah. And a heated suit.
PL: Sorry.
KM: A heated suit.
PL: Oh right.
KM: It was cold, you know, in the back.
PL: Of course.
KM: I was covered me head to toe. It was heated by the plane’s — plane heating system. You know.
PL: So when you went on to the plane did you go in any sort of order? Was there any sort of way in which everybody went in?
KM: Yeah. Up through the bottom. And up, jump up a ladder you know, and then I would step over the elsan, which was situated at the back and climb in, over in to the backseat and there I was master of my own dominion. Yeah.
PL: And did you feel part of the team?
KM: Of course. I was part, part of the team and if it had been when we were attacked I would direct, I would say to the skipper corkscrew left or depending on where he was coming from the left I would go that way and this way and down and up and at the time I would try to shoot him down, you see.
PL: Goodness.
KM: Aye.
PL: So I guess you were the guy they didn’t want to hear from.
KM: Yeah [laughs]
PL: A good trip would be when you were quiet the whole time. Right. Ok. So there were no active ops.
KM: No.
PL: Right. Ok. Ok. So did that apply, then, to your whole crew? You stayed together as a crew did you?.
KM: No.
PL: What happened to the others?
KM: The others stayed on 617.
PL: Right.
KM: And went flying with them as far as I know.
PL: Right. Right.
KM: I lost contact with them.
PL: Right. Right. Right.
KM: And I went on to a spare bod to the other place you see.
PL: Very good.
KM: Aye.
PL: So, so what year did you join? Did you actually join up? Do you remember?
KM: 1944, I’ve got it here. [pause] when I went to Sealand it was [pause] I think it was ’44 I think.
PL: In the RAF.
KM: ‘44. Aye.
PL: ’44. Ok so it must have been very frustrating for you.
KM: It was. Very frustrating. Having trained all that time, you know and then not go to.
PL: So how old were you in 1944?
KM: Oh I was eighteen. Eighteen.
PL: Goodness. So did lots of your friends join up at the same sort of time?
KM: Yes. And they were all coming from Wales and Scotland and all over England, you know to join. Same time.
PL: Is there anything else that you’d like to tell me about your, your experiences in Bomber Command before we move on to anything else.
KM: No. I don’t think so. Nothing happened to me you see. I was lucky as some say. As I say — unlucky.
PL: Well it’s just as important part of the story.
KM: Yeah.
PL: As everybody else’s part.
KM: Aye.
PL: It wouldn’t be a complete story.
KM: Aye.
PL: Without your contribution.
KM: Aye.
PL: So I guess one of the other things I’d like to ask you is how you felt about Bomber Command and how they were treated historically.
KM: Well Bomber Command were always second best to the first of the few. The fighters. You know, when they got their reward it was well and truly deserved of course and, but we should have had a reward then for our contribution.
PL: So how do you feel about the recognition that has come now?
KM: Now it’s alright. Now it’s alright of course. They’ve put that right. Everybody agrees now the role that the bomber boys had has come true.
PL: Fantastic. Thank you very much indeed Ken for talking to me today.
KM: Oh it was nothing.
[recording paused]
PL: Ok. So we’ve resumed recording because I just wanted to ask you Ken about what happened when the big bomb came. You talked about the big bomb. What was that and what were the implications for you?
KM: Well it was the Tallboy bomb. It was the biggest bomb we ever had and that’s why it was necessary to take out the one turret. To minimise the weight you see and allow the bomb to be carried. So it was only from that day that they needed one gunner instead of two see.
PL: And so who made that decision? And did that vary between crews or was it just a blanket decision from on high?
KM: Blanket decision.
PL: Ok. Thank you.
KM: Thank you.
PL: We’ll pause.
[recording paused]
PL: So we’re back on now. We were just having a conversation, Ken, about the fact that everybody volunteered for the RAF.
KM: Yes. Yes.
PL: I was just interested to know how you felt as such a young man joining up.
KM: Well it was great. You know. Get in the RAF. Do a job that was worth doing and it was wonderful.
PL: Did you feel excited by it?
KM: Yes. I was excited.
PL: But did you feel afraid as well?
KM: No. I didn’t feel afraid.
PL: Really.
KM: No.
PL: Very interesting. And did you, I mean as a young man I often think it must have been very interesting being a teenager during that time. Did you sort of feel like you were working towards your time?
KM: Yeah. Working towards my time with the RAF and joining a crew you know. To go and bomb.
PL: That’s very interesting.
KM: Tough for the people underneath who were receiving it of course but that wasn’t my worry.
PL: So do you think people did think about that?
KM: Yes. They did think about it but they couldn’t do anything about it anyway. No.
[recording paused]
PL: Put this back on. So we’re recording again. So you were this young man full of vim and vigour.
KM: Aye.
PL: But you weren’t afraid.
KM: No.
PL: But you knew about the statistics.
KM: Yes. I had a cousin that were training and lost him on training you see. Yeah.
PL: But you still did it. You still went ahead and did it.
KM: Oh yes. You couldn’t go back you see. Well you didn’t think about that. Going back.
PL: Very good. Very good. Thank you.
[recording paused]
PL: So we’ve starting recording again. So we were just talking, Ken, about you know this young man who was there in your own world. Master of all you surveyed.
KM: Yeah.
PL: Waiting and checking the sky.
KM: Yeah.
PL: For, for other planes.
KM: Aye.
PL: And believing that you would be victorious.
KM: Aye.
PL: If there was a problem and the plane was hit in any way, what happened then?
KM: Well I would turn my turret to port, pull the doors open on the back and flip myself out, see. And go down then. I had a clear run.
PL: With your, with your parachute.
KM: Parachute. Aye. And all I had to do was put it to port and flip myself out you know.
PL: So did you do all of that during your training I guess? You had practice runs did you?
KM: Yeah. Yeah. We had practice runs but nobody jumps out of a perfectly good aircraft when its flying alright do they?
PL: So how? So you just literally, you did some, you had the experience of a parachute drop though did you? In your training.
KM: Yeah.
PL: But not from the turret.
KM: From — we done from a static point in the, jumped about, I don’t know, and then it was suspended and then you pull a certain thing and down you came you see.
PL: Goodness gracious. So you didn’t actually go up in an aeroplane.
KM: No. Had to do it.
PL: Goodness me. So, so if there had been an emergency that would have been the first time.
KM: The first time and the last time you would wave bye bye to them, to the crew.
PL: What, that was the deal.
KM: That was the deal.
PL: Is that what everybody used to say? You would have to wave bye bye to the crew.
KM: Aye.
PL: Goodness me. Wonderful. You see all of these things are just taken for granted by you.
KM: Yeah.
PL: But for the people who are listening to this recording they won’t know those sorts of details.
KM: No.
PL: It seems extraordinary in the twenty first century that you would be sent to war.
KM: Yeah.
PL: And never actually jumped out of an aircraft.
KM: No [laughs] It’s quite safe though to jump out, you see.
PL: What do you think about your generation?
KM: I don’t think, well my generation, if it happened again I would go, of course, even though I’m no good now. But it was the thing to do, see. Everybody did it. Everybody thought the same and it was just one of those things.
PL: Wonderful. Thank you very much Ken.
KM: Alright.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Kenneth George McVicar
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pam Locker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcVicarKG151222
Format
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00:31:03 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Kenneth George McVicar was born in Llanelli, South Wales and joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18, where he qualified as a Gunner. He Flew in Ansons as mid upper gunner turret, but also on Stirlings and Lancasters. He tells of how he went to serve in 617 Squadron but since they had a surplus of gunners, he was moved to 619 Squadron. He recollects the arrival of the Tallboy bomb and how the adaptation caused a gun turret to be removed. With the war coming to an end, Ken became a clerk in the Royal Air Force before being posted to India. On his return home to Wales, he joined the Metropolitan Police, rising to the rank of sergeant and he retired after about 28 years of service.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales
India
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
617 Squadron
619 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Lancaster
Stirling
Tallboy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/750/10749/PCookJA1701.1.jpg
4edc3babf103787302f8c18e56801b42
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/750/10749/ACookJA170918.2.mp3
4978e3d53a8f638857ee98dfc90168c8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cook, Jack Alexander
J A Cook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jack Cook (b. 1919, 1893192 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 158 and 267 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jack Cook and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cook, JA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: Ok. I think we’re ready. Ready to go. So [pause] Ok. I think we’re ready to start. This is Andrew Sadler interviewing Jack Cook in his home in Uxbridge on Monday the 18th of September 2017. Thank you for allowing me to come, Jack.
JC: You’re very welcome.
AS: Can you tell me how you got involved with the RAF in the first place?
JC: Well, in the first place I was in a Reserved Occupation. Instrument maker. So, of course when the war broke out I was safe. Or shall we say safe. And in the end I just would not, I would not stay in there. I mean I didn’t want to see the war going on in somebody else’s backyard. I wanted to be involved so I volunteered. And the only thing I could volunteer for was Bomber Command. They wouldn’t take any for anybody else. So, of course I was glad. Glad enough of that. And I, I was, how can I say? I got, I finally, anyway I finally, they accepted me and I went. Went for training. Usual training. Bomber Command training. And when I finished that the, we naturally went to get crewed up. There I met my, my crew. The other people there. Bill Walsh, he was a New Zealander. I think there’s a picture of him somewhere here. And then the, the other. The other lot. I forget all their names now. Excuse me for that. But yes we, we then, after we’d finished our first lot of training you know we had to learn to fly the things of course and all about them. And as an engineer, what I was going to be a flight engineer I had to know a lot more because, you know you have to know the ins and outs of the aircraft. Anyway, we finally got through our training. From our early training and they put us on, on operations in Lissett. A place called Lissett in Yorkshire. We were flying. We were flying Halifax 3 machines and they were a lovely machine mind you because as an engineer I knew all about that. But we, we finally got sent in to York. A place in Yorkshire where we did, we did, started our operational flying. Of course, then it was straight on to, you know when the when the guns really did go bang. And we, I think we got through [pause] I think got about twelve or thirteen and we, we caught a wallop on the way back and then we had to crash in to, to Carnaby. That’s the big crash ‘drome. Carnaby. And from then of course it was easy going because we’d got another aeroplane by then. And we, we just did short stuff then from then on because we were practically at the end of the war by then. Fortunately, because you know when I did get into the war I got a bit of the war in [laughs] where a lot of people went through the really thick stuff, you know. But anyway, the end of the war we all demobbed. And that’s a painting done of us. And there’s not really anything. Then I went back into industry of course as an instrument maker. But beyond that. What —
AS: Where were you stationed?
JC: I was stationed in Lissett. A York, in Yorkshire. We first of all went on to, we went on to, you know our initial training in Yorkshire. But then we finally, when we finally, when we finally passed out on our initial training they posted us to 158 Squadron in Lissett and we, I think we managed to get off about twenty three operations. Twenty three trips through. I think it was about twenty three. Without my book I’d have a look and we then of course the end of the war we separated and although we kept in touch for a long time but we gradually lose you know. But yes. We did very, we were very lucky. We did get one. One went in on the way back and we got a terrific bang in the old what’s the name wing. And the shell had come up and knocked, you know hit the wing, the wing of the aircraft and sort of knocked us into a spin. We sort of fortunately were able to get back out again and get back. Limp back into Carnaby. That was a special place with extra long runways to, you know for a crashed aircraft to get in there safely. But otherwise and that we just gently cruised through the rest of the war and that was the end of it. We kept in touch for a while. But people —
AS: Were you just, were you just in Halifaxes?
JC: Sorry?
AS: Were you just in Halifaxes?
JC: In Halifax 3. Yes. Oh, a lovely aeroplane. No doubt about that. We trained. Trained of course on the earlier version. Well, you know the old, old stuff for the trainees. And then we transferred to the Halifax 3 which was as I say was a lovely aeroplane. But spoiled it by the end. We blew half the wing off [laughs] You know we were just at the end of the war and then we all sort of went our own separate ways.
AS: Can you tell me about your training as a flight engineer?
JC: Well, yes. I when I, when I was an I was an instrument maker, you see. And of course when I decided I wanted to, wanted to do something a bit more than this I tried to get in and the only thing they could put me on was a wireless operator. Well, you know I thought I’m going to have a go at anything. You know. To get in. And I went on a wireless operator’s course but of course for some reason or other I couldn’t take Morse. You know. I just couldn’t take, couldn’t get it down quick enough. They had to transfer me over. I was lucky because they just happened to be just short of flight engineers so they put me on a flight engineer’s course and I went down to Wales, St Athans in Wales and trained. I went through the training. Got my, got my logbook. It’s around somewhere. And, and then we went on after. After we got our initial training they posted us to a proper Squadron. 158 Squadron in Yorkshire. And that was at Carnaby. Near Carnaby. And then we flew. What did we, I think about twenty three I think before we finally ran out of war. So of course at the end of the war of course we all went our own separate ways.
AS: Can you remember the missions? The missions that you went on?
JC: Pardon?
AS: Can you remember the missions that you went on?
JC: Oh yes. Well, I’ve got a logbook here somewhere.
Other: He’s got his logbook there.
Other 2: Oh yes. Oh. Here we are. Yes.
JC: Yes. Yes. It’s, it’s a bit more interesting I suppose.
Other: Pass it over, Jack.
JC: Where are we? [pause] Yeah. There we are. Flight engineer, on. With the effect on the 18th of January ’45. So, you see we were running out of war quite fast I’d say.
AS: When do you think you actually go in to the Air Force?
JC: When did I go in to the Air Force?
AS: Yes.
JC: Oh [pause] To be perfectly honest I can’t remember when we —
Other: It’s no good looking at me.
JC: Because I tried to get in to the, first of all anything that would take me. Then the only thing you could get from, I was an instrument maker. The only thing I could get to come out from that was aircrew. But I mean I just didn’t believe I was sort of capable of going aircrew. But anyhow I went and they trained. First of all it was rather unfortunate. They put me as a wireless operator. Well, alright but the trouble was I just couldn’t take Morse quick enough. You know. I just couldn’t get it down so no good as that. So, you know you can’t say that, ‘Oh, would you mind running it again? We didn’t hear it.’ So you know I, I transferred then with a bit of luck as a flight engineer. I flannelled my way through. They said, ‘What do you know about cars and engines?’ And all that. And I flannelled. I didn’t know the first thing about how a car worked. But anyway I talked. Talked them into letting me start. So I went to St Athan’s and did the original early training. Then I finally sent up to Yorkshire where I did the operational. What they called the operational training where you have your final polish of all your work and learn how to really cope with aircraft. And then from then straight on to 158 Squadron. Quite a posh Squadron I must say. 158 Squadron in Yorkshire. Near Bridlington. And we, I think we managed to get about twenty three. I’m not quite sure how many it was. About twenty. I think it was twenty three and then we ran out of war. So we all went our own separate ways. I’ve got a few bits here but not, you know. Here’s sort of our crew. Oh, we’ll go through. We’ll go through our crew. Yeah. I’ve got Bill Walsh who was a New Zealander. He was the pilot and he was a smashing bloke. The other one there was [pause] we had two gunners. Reg. Reg Simpson and Nick Nichols. Funny that. And Ray. He was a [pause] he was the navigator. Ray. And the other one was the bomb aimer. And as I say we, does it say how many we got? See what we’ve got in the book. We did, we did catch a packet in one place and managed to land. I’ll show you in a minute anyway. We were coming across Holland somewhere I think. We got, we got hit. That threw us into a spin. And the, the pilot, brilliant pilot, old Bill, a New Zealand lad got us out of a spin, you know. A skinny lad really. And then we managed to sneak across the North Sea and came in at Carnaby. A big, a big crash aerodrome at Carnaby. And, [pause] but anyway as I say we went on from then. We got properly, got through the whole lot. I think it was about twenty three [unclear] But yeah we were lucky. We were very lucky. We had one or two. One or two clips, you know where you know, bits of holes appear in the wings and lumps come off. But on the whole we got away with them. Except on that one occasion when we nearly went down. But [pause] yeah. Otherwise, you see the photograph.
AS: Wow.
JC: Hit by a shell and it actually exploded in the wing.
AS: What, what was life like on the base when you were between missions?
JC: Sorry?
AS: What was life like on the Air Force base between, when you were between missions?
JC: Oh. Wonderful really because we as a crew of seven we tended to, well we were sort of all put in our own hut separately and so of course we lived as a family of seven. I mean there was, there was sort of we had a warrant officer pilot and a warrant officer navigator and the rest of us were all just sergeants. And there was no muscling about. We all went in together in the same hut and oh it was, it was really a lot of, a really a tight camaraderie between us. You know. We were a crew and as they were our right hand. Right arm. You know. It was, of course at the end of the war unfortunately we went our own separate ways and I lost touch.
AS: How long did you keep in touch with your crew mates?
JC: Oh well, first of all of course it wasn’t, it was quite a while and then gradually we sort of got writing to each other. But it was long, it was quite a long time since I’d seen them or heard anything. Yeah.
AS: When you —
JC: We understand that the navigator and Bill the pilot were both New Zealanders. They went back of course to New Zealand. The rest of us we just dispersed. What we had to, I can’t remember you know, we had the rear gunner was [pause] I forget what he was. He was just, just one of the bods you know. Like myself.
AS: When you finished and you came out of the RAF what did you do then?
JC: Well, I went back into the factories of course. It was a bit of a, you know it was all a bit of a wrench from being you know under orders as to getting back. Getting back on sort of your own peace. Your own job. But I went back in to the factories and became an instrument maker and finally a tool and mould maker. When I retired I was tool and mould maker. You know. All the stuff, you look around you has all my fingers on it.
AS: Oh right. And did you find it difficult to assimilate back into civilian life?
JC: No. Not really. I suppose we missed, missed the company for a start but of course we all went our own separate ways and kept quite tightly in touch for, you know for the first year or so but gradually it wandered off and to tell you the honest truth I’m never quite sure where they all are now. But —
AS: Did, did you, you didn’t fly any aircraft other than Halifaxes.
JC: Oh well, after yeah after the, after the war first of all, of course we did our training on a, on a sort of a clapped out Halifax. Then we did our operations on a brand new one. A lovely brand new one. And we spoiled it though. We blew a lump out of the wing. But then after that it was just a matter of pottering around. Aircraft wanted to be delivered from one place to another. I used to have to fill in as a flight engineer. But gradually you sort of get I finally got as I, sort of let out. They discharged. I don’t think I can offer much more than that. As I say because when I came out of course I went to try and pick my old threads as an instrument maker which I was virtually in the same sort of job I finally finished with.
AS: Were you involved with the RAF Associations afterwards?
JC: Oh. Involved with them. Well, not for a very long time. I didn’t realise that there was anything, you know. Anything like that. But it was just down the road wasn’t it from RAF, RAF Uxbridge? There was a, I met one or two people down there. I went in. I got in with them. And we used to meet down there sometimes didn’t we? Well, Olive didn’t but I used to go down there lunchtime. Friday lunchtime wasn’t it? Friday lunchtime I think it was I used to go down there and we’d meet together. But of course I don’t think [pause] I don’t ever really met my crew again. I’ve got a feeling I did meet one of them but you know being as we were a very close knit seven you know. A very, very close knit lot and when you all go your separate ways it’s surprising you are separate and that’s it. But yeah. We had a good crew. A jolly good crew. Have you had a look at the —
AS: No. Maybe I’ll —
JC: Not a lot, not a lot in there really but —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Alexander Cook
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Sadler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACookJA170918, PCookJA1701
Format
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00:21:17 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Beginning the war in a reserved occupation, Jack eventually volunteered for the Royal Air Force, however, it would take the majority of the war before he joined. Eventually being called up for Bomber Command in 1944, Jack trained as a wireless operator before becoming a flight engineer. He was sent to RAF St Athan initially for training, before joining 158 Squadron at RAF Lissett to fly Halifax bombers. Throughout his operations, Jack completed 12 operations before his plane was damaged over the Netherlands, having to make a crash landing at RAF Carnaby. He then continues to give information on the Halifax bomber, recounting his experience being hit by a shell during a flight. Jack recounts his time at RAF Lissett as wonderful, living with ‘his own family’, his crew, a family of seven. Reaching the rank of sergeant, he believes he completed 23 operations in total. When the war ended, Jack returned to his pre-war occupation as an instrument maker, keeping in contact with many of his crew throughout the years. He states that it was easy to return to civilian life, but the one thing he missed most was the camaraderie. He is currently involved with the RAF Association.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
158 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
military ethos
RAF Carnaby
RAF Lissett
RAF St Athan
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/652/8923/PWadeR1503.2.jpg
0b506137cd4da312b391a18185ae0198
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/652/8923/AWadeR150726.1.mp3
95701c1624fa69e8a17fb1a5fdcce23c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wade, Ron
R Wade
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wade
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Ron Wade (b. 1917, Royal Air Force) and three photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 58 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Okay, so this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody, and the interviewee is Ron Wade, and the interview is taking place at Mr Wade’s home in, near Cheltenham at Bishops Cleve on the 26th July 2015. So, Ron, if you just may be start off with just a little bit about your background, about your school days and what your parents did? Off you go.
RW: All right now, it’s switched off
AM: [Laughs]. Okay, so off you go Ron.
RW: Right. What do you want first?
AM: Well just tell me a little bit about your, what your parents did, and school days, where you were born, just a little bit of background about you.
RW: Yes, right, I was, you’ve got the date I was born.
AM: I have.
RW: And um, my parents, I was one of four children, I had two sisters and a brother. Unfortunately my brother was killed during the war, not on operations, but he, after I was shot down, he was working for the gas company and he would have been, um, he needn’t have joined, let’s put it that way, but er, because I was missing believed killed for six months and he said, ‘they’ve got Ron, I’m going to take his place’, and he joined the RAF. He was coming home on his birthday, 1943, on a motorcycle, and I was the motorcyclist in the family and taking risks a place, he hit a lorry and was killed outright, and so my parents had a rough time because I was, they thought I was, I was injured they didn’t know how badly and so um, they had a rough time.
AM: They must have done, yeah. What did your parents do Ron?
RW: My father was, they had a grocery shop at the time, but before the war my father was a Master Grocer and he was made redundant by the person he worked for it as a, I was born. Let’s start off where I was born. I was born in Stoke-on-Trent and Longton was the name of the one of the six towns, not five towns, they forgot Fenton, and so, um my, that was my father, he was a Master Grocer and those days, when he was younger, to be a Master Grocer was quite a trade. And so um, he, my mother worked in the Potteries in Longton where most of the china was produced and Ainsley and all the top china work, and she was a Paintress, a freehand Paintress, and er, the, also my sister, one of my sisters was also a paint, a freehand Paintress on pottery.
AM: Where did you go to school?
RW: I went to school at Woodhouse, it was called Woodhouse and er, an Elementary School. I wasn’t very good [laughs] at maths but I enjoyed school, but when came the age of fourteen, in those days you had to pay to go to Grammar School. We couldn’t afford that, so at the age of fourteen I was kicked out and I left, and so um, I wandered around trying to get a job. If you think, this was in the thirties and a lot of unemployment and so I was told to go and get a job. So I got a job in a factory at Longton and it was a bit rough because I had to, as a warehouse boy, I was paid five shillings a week and one of my jobs was to scrub the floors, light a fire under a heater in the factory so they could bring their food and put it on the top to heat it up for lunch. If I was late getting all that done, I was in dead trouble [laughs], but scrubbing the floors, it was so the one floor from downstairs, the ovens, we had two big ovens, one gloss and one biscuit, that we called biscuit ovens, [coughs] and then after a while the former warehouse boy he er, he worked in the moulding, he became a moulder in the moulding shop, and he said, ‘have they got on to you yet about moving from here?’ and at that time, I was scrubbing the floors with a scrubbing brush, cold water, down the steps, all wood, wooden steps, cleaning the steps going down there [laughs]. And so and er, then the crunch came when they said ‘right, pack it in, you go downstairs and help unloading from the ovens’ and what happened, it was, they’d be firing and then they used to open up after the firing, take all the bricks away from the entrance and then for twelve hours it would be cooling off. And then they got me with the others, the people unloading right from the top of the ladders and they brought it down and it was still very, very hot ware and then they got me with the others, carrying ware like dinner plates, [laughs], carrying from the oven. Up the stairs, two flights of stairs, along the corridor, which I had to clean [laughs] and into the warehouse, where the women were and they unloaded from the baskets. And one day, I was going up with a basket full of cups and saucers, and I used to carry them on my shoulder, basket on my shoulder and one hand on my hip, going up the same flight of stairs and I caught a water pipe that was sticking out from the stairs, just caught the basket and I had a choice. Shall I go down with the basket [laughs] or try and retrieve what I could, but I decided to let the basket go [laughs] and save myself.
AM: Save yourself.
RW: And there the ugly manager, who was one of the bosses sons stood at the bottom, with his hands on his hips and he saw, he saw all the ware down there, all smashed, and he said, ‘I’ll stop that out of your wages’ [laughs].
AM: And did they?
RW: No, no, they’d have been forever [laughs].
AM: I was going to say wages probably wouldn’t have been enough, would they?
RW: No [laughs] so that was that.
AM: So that was your introduction to work.
RW: My introduction to work.
AM: What about the RAF, how did you come to join the RAF?
RW: The RAF yes - what happened there?
AM: What made you want to join?
RW: From there, I went, I had several other jobs you know, trying to make a living in the 1930’s, wasn’t easy, and I walked around for miles getting jobs for five shillings a week. And then I was always interested in the RAF and I wanted to fly and so I went to join up when the war started and er, they said, ‘no, no’. I said ‘I want to be a pilot’, because my uncle had been a pilot and been killed, and um, but I always, right from a tiny child, wanted to fly, I wanted to be a pilot, and so they said ‘no, we have enough pilots’, and um, my maths wouldn’t have been good enough anyway.
AM: This was right at the beginning of the war, 1939?
RW: Oh yes, the beginning of the war, when the war started.
AM: So you would be twenty two?
RW: Twenty two, that’s right and I had been married. I made the mistake of getting married, and er, anyway I had a daughter by that marriage and she is now ninety seven, eighty seven, sorry, and amazingly enough, she visits me, she stills lives near Stoke-on-Trent.
AM: Yes, excellent.
RW: And she comes now and then to visit. I, then, that’s right, oh they said, ‘if you want to go into aircrew, if you want to fly, we can offer you the um’, what shall I say, oh yes, ‘offer you the way you can get into aircrew and you can be the wireless operator, and then from wireless operator, you would be an air gunner. That’s the only thing we can offer you if you want to fly’, and so this is what happened. I joined up, I was called up and I offered my services then, and I was called up in January 1940 and I did my ITW in Morecambe, sent to Morecambe, and that was quite an experience, because we all walked down the street in Morecambe and they said, ‘you eight in that house, you eight in the next house’, and so this went on and as we were allocated this one house and the dear lady, who was the boss of the house, she was coming downstairs and we were just coming into the house, into the hall and she said, ‘I didn’t want you here, I’ve had enough with guests through the summer’, [laughs] and so that was our introduction to this place. She wouldn’t let us use the lounge, we had a little room at the back and then they had a kitchen, where we were allowed in, but not the lounge [laughs], and I wasn’t very popular with her because I didn’t like her attitude, and she said we had to be in at ten o’clock at night and so one of us used to stay around, say like if we went to a dance, you see, and so this is what we did and er, we made it enjoyable. I think the pranks we got up to such as I cut out a skull and crossbones and put it in the light that it shone, the light shone through the skull and crossbones [laughs]. They had um, a, a bit of a showcase in there and I saw er, a cup in there, I thought, the old man, poor devil, he was really under the thumb with the old girl, and I saw a cup in there, an inscribed cup and I thought, marvellous, he must have been a runner or something like that, and so when I examined the cup, fortunately the door wasn’t locked on the showcase, and I was disgusted to see that it was for mineral waters [laughs]. The cup was given for being very good with his mineral waters, and so what happened there was, I filled it with cold tea [laughs]and I wasn’t very popular at all.
AM: No.
RW: We were allowed to go upstairs to our rooms, she complained about, about the rifles, we all had our the Enfield rifles.
AM: Because you were square bashing?
RW: That’s right, yes, up and down the streets, and so um, she complained because we put our rifles in the umbrella stand in the hall, so she said, ‘no, they must go upstairs and under your beds’, so fair enough, this is what we did. But at ten o’clock in the mornings, we had to get up early, but at ten o’clock we had a tea break and so we all, the whistle went and we all had to fall outside in the street and er, the old boy had to make the tea, you see. By the time he’d made the tea for the eight of us, the whistle went again [laughs] so we had to form up outside again, and er, also the rifles had to keep going upstairs under the beds [laughs], so by the time we had done all these things, then we were going to be late on parade so that’s fair enough we managed it.
AM: Oh good.
RW: Yes, and then we were eventually, we were called by the CO, we had to go, we were called into the CO’s Office in Morecambe and – left, right, left ,right, halt - and er, we stood, the eight of us there, and we stood in front of the CO, and he had his bits of paper on his desk and he said ‘which one of you is Wade?’, so - left, right, left, right, halt - ‘Right, I’ve had complaints from your landlady’, and er, he read out all these different things that I had done in the house. And then I tried to explain, I said ‘I’m guilty of what she said, but it’s very difficult to go up and down the stairs in our boots and not make a noise’, that was one thing that she went on about, and the other thing was that she had to take up the stair carpet and so we were making more noise going up and down the stairs and this went on for a while, but the CO, ‘well, you won’t be here for very much longer’, which we weren’t fortunately, but next door they had a marvellous time, the eight in there, and they were allowed into the lounge and they had a piano, and the pianist there, I’m trying to think of his name - Ronnie, Ronnie, but he played at the BBC and er, his friend ran the Squadronaires.
AM: Right.
RW: I forget his name now, they were a nice couple of guys, and they also were able to fraternise with the two daughters [laughs] so they were unhappy to leave Morecambe [laughs]. Anyway we went from Morecambe up to um, to do the wireless course, wireless operators and er, so as I say I joined in January and when I went to Swanton Morley, no, not Swanton Morley, I’m trying to think of the name of the place we went to now.
AM: No, never mind
RW: It’ll come, and um, that’s right, and so I started a course there as a wireless operator and er, I did quite a few months there, doing Morse. Very difficult, very difficult and I was very happy to leave there [laughs].
AM: Did you pass?
RW: I passed, yes, we had to, and from there I was interviewed, now I was hoping they were putting me onto a pilots course [coughs] and I was interviewed by a group, and they were ex pilots from the First World War and um, as I sat there they were asking questions, ‘why did I want to fly?’ and I said ‘I’ve always wanted to fly since, I, since being very small’ and so er, I thought I am going to get my course as a pilot. But the one question one of these old boys threw at me was, ‘what would your feelings or attitude be, if you fired at a German and you saw his face disintegrate due to your bullets?’ I said ‘bloody good show, that’s what I joined for’ and so [laughs], and they all looked at me, you know, ‘who’s this crazy guy we’ve got here’ [laughs] and so that went on, and I thought, oh no, they’re going to put me on a pilots course. ‘No’, they said, ‘no, you will be an air gunner’. So I went down to South Wales and did an air gunner’s course there and this is just about the end of the Battle of Britain, and er, we were being bombed and shot up every day and night there, and er, and I was chased down the runway one day by a Junkers 88 and I managed [laughs], the bullets were going all around me and I got behind a sand bin and they came through the sand, the bullets from this 88 and then the hut, the hut we were in the, the normal RAF Huts.
AM: Nissen Huts.
RW: Yes, that’s right, all wood, and er, one day they bombed and destroyed the one each side of ours then we had to lie down flat as they strafed us, the bullet holes through the hut, through the wood.
AM: And this was at training camp in South Wales?
RW: In South Wales, yes, day and night. We weren’t allowed, as air crew, we weren’t allowed to sleep in the huts so we had to go out in the field and within tents and sleep outside, and there again, I was a bit crazy and I slept behind the beds. I put my mattress down there and then I thought ‘what’s it going to be?’ and my DRO’s, one of our men, was killed because he didn’t get in the tents, so I was turfed out of there and I had to go into a tent and er, that was the end of the Battle of Britain.
AM: Of the Battle of Britain.
RW: Yes.
AM: What was the training like Ron, the air gunner training?
RW: Oh it was intense, very intense and we had, had er, we had the um, Fairey Battles, Whitley’s 1’s and 3’s which were, they were pretty awful things this is why they had, and the Whitley 5’s we finished up on, they were also rubbish, [laughs] sorry to say. And um, as I said training had to be intense because we were the only ones carrying the war to the Germans, Bomber Command, and so from there other things happened you know, I was lucky to get away with we were, because they were bombing night and day.
AM: Because of the bombing?
RW: And so er, from there I went to OTU at Abingdon.
AM: Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
RW: That’s right, Abingdon, and er, that was very intense. We had very few hours off and because we were needed, and so from there a very good friend of mine, he was a pilot doing his training too and we were formed up into fives.
AM: So it was five, there were five of you in your group?
RW: Five in a group.
AM: This was for a Whitley?
RW: Whitley 5, yes, and er, Mac was his name, MacGregor Cheers and I’ve got it in my book, and he didn’t want to be a pilot, he wasn’t happy training as a pilot, poor Mac. There was me, I wanted to be a pilot and he would have rather, rather been an air gunner but it didn’t work out that way.
AM: How did you get together as a crew?
RW: Oh there we er, we had, later on when we got to the squadron, I moved on to 58 Squadron er, from training and um, this, our CO there, he said ‘I’ve been having too many complaints from you, from all air crew about the Whitley’, and we said ‘we’d rather be on the Wimpeys’, you know the Wimpey?
AM: I don’t know the Wimpey.
RW: Yes, the Wimpey was the one, I’m trying to think of it now, the Wimpey. We were on the Whitleys, I was flying on the Whitleys, this was the, this will probably tell you in the book there [looks through the book].
AM: I can’t find it, never mind it doesn’t matter.
RW: Anyway, we’ll find it yes. It’s my age [laughs].
AM: You’re allowed [laughs].
RW: And so we said we’d rather be on different aircraft, we didn’t like Whitleys, and he said, ‘anymore complaints and you’ll be off flying, you’ll be grounded’, he said ‘you fly in this and it’s a very good aircraft and you have to fly it’.
AM: Where was 58 Squadron based then, at that point?
RW: We were at Linton on Ouse.
AM: Okay.
RW: And that is where we had to form up and choose the crew, choose the fives, and er, it was very good, very good. And, oh yes, when I arrived there, our flight commander came through the hangar, I came from one door and he came through the other door, flight lieutenant, and um, he said ‘my god, we are glad to see you’, he said, ‘we had a rough night on Berlin last night and we had one aircraft left in our flight’. So he said, ‘come and meet the lads’, so off I went in the crew room and er, I met the lads and er, he said ‘right, this is Ron, Ron Wade, and er, he wants a cup of coffee. What do you want, tea or coffee? Who’s on making coffee?’, ‘Oh, I did it yesterday’, ‘now make him a cuppa, whatever he wants’, so I met the lads that way. But er, how we formed up in a crew we went into flying control and into the room there and all milling around meeting each other, formally or informally and this is where we formed up, and er, I was very lucky guy. I had a lucky war really because my original crew, I was taken off, we did two trips, two trips, I forget where it was now, but they said, ‘right that’s me softened up so you are being replaced by this Graham (I think his name was), Graham, because he ditched in the sea and he has been on leave for a couple of months, but he will be taking your place’, then last heard of, they came down in the sea, so this Graham had two trips, two operations both into the sea and the second time they weren’t recovered, so I was very lucky there, but I said to Amy, ‘how must his parents have felt?’
AM: Yes
RW: Because I think of him now, taking my place I had through good luck and he had the bad luck. My folks had the bad luck with my brother being killed and me being [unclear] after six months they thought I’d been killed.
AM: So just wheeling back a bit.
RW: Yes.
AM: So you didn’t, you were taken off that crew and then, presumably, put with another crew?
RW: Yes
AM: And did some more operations?
RW: Yes, with another crew, and then I was waiting to get on another crew and er, it was rather boring because I was sweeping, I was cleaning the snooker table and I got very good at snooker, and I was waiting and then I had several attempts to go on ops but something happened every time. And then on a Whitley 5, they um, they had a lot of what you call exacter trouble. If they snatched too hard then it would go fully fine and we would have to turn back and so er, this happened, different things happened and I didn’t get, because I had, I just, oh yes, what happened, from the trip before, it had been a bit hairy, got a few holes in it and er, I had a premonition from that, that as we were coming into land, I saw the runway and I thought I won’t see this again, I’m going to be killed. Strange feeling, it was a very, very, it, it and I knew I was going to be killed, strangely enough and I wanted to get this trip over, the next trip over, all my crew who were going to be my crew were on leave and I should have waited to come back but this is on January, January 8th I think, I think it’s in there, the book. Oh yes, my roommate, I won’t mention his name, but he came back from leave and he said that he was tired, he knew what the trip was going to be, it was a tough one, Konigsburg, and er, the CO said, ‘there are two fighter areas’, so he said, ‘keep North and be very wary because of the fighters’, and I knew that it was going to be tough because of so many things going on there. And so er, I volunteered for this, and he said that he was tired so the sawbones gave him a pill and told him to go to bed, so I volunteered, do you want to go to bed because always a thing come back, leave, he had a tough one, crew didn’t make it, we were losing so many in those days. And so off with his name, on with mine, just the [unclear] they wanted and er, I thought, I’m going to get it over with, and so off we went and this is when we were in Holland, North Holland, and then we had, they hit the port engine and we set on fire.
AM: Where? On the way to drop your bombs?
RW: Yes.
AM: On the way there.
RW: On the way there, yes, and er, we thought we were going to come down in the North Sea, we were going over the North Sea at the time, and January you didn’t live very long in the North Sea, and so we thought, that’s it, and all the rest of the crew were aged nineteen and I was the oldest.
AM: You were an old boy, twenty three?
RW: Twenty three, yes, and so um, the navigator said, ‘I don’t think we’ll make it, we are not going to make Holland’ and so the skipper said, ‘right I don’t know what you are going to do, but it’s no use coming down, we’ll have to go down into the sea and about five minutes that will be it because Whitley’s didn’t swim very well’ [laughs]. And so I was in the, I was flying as a rear gunner at the time, operating as a rear gunner, and by the way before that I had done a trip from um, the, when I was at OUT, I’d been, I was on a crew, going, dropping leaflets over Italy. We had a trip to Turin and it’s in the book there and dropping leaflets and we were attacked by two fighters and I told the pilot to do this um, manoeuvre to get away from them and um, then when we came up again, they fired at us and then I had the new Brownings, four of them, and they really did damage because I fired at them and then they turned and smoke poured from both of them and they retreated and went back. I didn’t know if they went down or not but they weren’t happy, and so that was an earlier.
AM: So that was Italy,
RW: And I was going to tell you.
AM: So now, now you’re on your way to Holland?
RW: That’s right on operations, I’d gone from there and I had a photograph taken by picture post in the turret, in the rear turret, showing off these new Brownings , and er, yes, so back to the squadron, on our way to Wilhelmshaven and then we were hit and I thought that’s it, this is my premonition coming because fire broke out and it was getting close, my job to get, we were given the order to bail out although if we wanted to over the sea, but by this time the navigator had informed us that we could make it, we just made it, North Holland, so we had been told to bail out. I had to get out of the rear turret somehow, we’d been losing height at quite a pace, so when I got out of the rear turret, because my parachute was in the fuselage, and so I had to open the rear doors of my turret, crawl out, then the order was to get my parachute and harness, ‘cos there’s no room in the turret for them, so my training was that I got these and then I had to get back into the turret with great difficultly, close the doors, turn ninety degrees and then go out backwards.
AM: Right
RW: But fortunately for me, as I was getting my parachute and harness and I put them on, the first wireless op came down the fuselage and he jettisoned the door, waved to me and the sparks and flames coming past the fuselage door, and he waved and jumped through this. Now I’m not getting back in that turret, I’ll never make it and so I was going after him and so I made for the door and, what happened next then, and, oh yes, I was about to jump and then out of the corner of my eye I saw the navigator coming down dragging his parachute and harness. He hadn’t put it on.
AM. Oh no.
RW: And so I couldn’t leave him, the plane was slipping like this – slipping, slipping, slipping - we lost a lot of altitude and we were getting pretty close, and so he couldn’t do anything because he was almost falling over every time the plane went. What had happened, the two pilots had gone from the door, from the front.
AM: So they’d bailed out?
RW: They’d bailed out, because he’d given orders for us to bail out by then, and as I say don’t forget that all the rest of the crew were nineteen, they very young. And so he went, that’s right, so I went back and zipped him up and then pushed him out, hoping that he’s there [laughs], then I went after him. Then I don’t remember anything else, apart from it had been snowing through the night, it was a very, very bad night and um, it was about eight o’clock and then I came down in this field and er, the place is called Anna Paulowna, a little hamlet, and the next morning um, a man going to work on the farm and er, he just saw me and I was covered in snow, and it had been deep snow through the night, and he found I was still ticking.
AM: So you were unconscious?
RW: I was unconscious because, what had happened, the Dutch people told me afterwards, that I had gone towards the plane, so we must have been pretty low when I bailed out. I was the last one out, and so that’s why I don’t remember anything, they said that they called to me to come away ‘cos I was making for the plane, so it wasn’t very far away, but as, what I remember when I bailed out, that I was hoping that the parachute would open [laughs].
AM: Quickly.
RW: Quickly, and the um, I wasn’t scared, strangely enough, I just wasn’t scared, and the only thing I could think of, I missed my bacon and eggs, because the only time we had bacon and eggs was when we came back from an operation, then I was calling swear words to the others ‘lucky bastards’ [laughs].
AM: No bacon and eggs.
RW: [Laughs] You’ll be having my bacon and eggs and that’s all I could think off [laughs]. I’d been looking forward to that, and then they called me to come away from the aircraft and so what had happened then, as the ammunition had been exploding, then I stopped one in the back of the head and so I’d been treated in hospital there and um -
AM: So the Dutch people found you?
RW: Yes
AM: And took you to hospital?
RW: No, oh no.
AM: Oh right.
RW: They called the Germans, because if they’d been found, they took me into the hamlet where they lived and then they called the Germans because if the Germans had come and found me first, we’d have all been shot. So the Germans took me away and then they took me into hospital because I’d stopped the bullet in the back of the head, the doctor said I was very fortunate because if it had been any deeper I would have been killed, which was my premonition. And if it had been over a little, I would have been blind and so what happened, I lost, I found out later, I lost the least of the senses that was smell and taste and I’ve never been able to smell and taste since. I can taste, I was tested for it when I came back home and I can taste sugar, salt, vinegar.
AM: So things that have a strong taste.
RW: That’s right yes, that’s all I can taste, so that was it.
AM: So you are in the hospital, you’ve been treated?
RW: Oh yes, I’d been treated.
AM: Then what happened?
RW: What had happened, I had an enema, do they call it? It was a hell of a mess [laughs] and then I was in this ward and er, I was, I remember being in this bed and looking up and there’s a fellow waving to me across the ward, and I thought, ‘who the hells that. I don’t know him’, and this went on for a whole day when he was waving and that was the navigator.
AM: Right
RW: And I didn’t recognise him and this went on and after a while it came, my memory came back again.
AM: So that’s two of you in the hospital?
RW: That was in the hospital. Oh yes and um, when I got talking to the navigator again, he said, ‘careful’, because I was well known for my dirty jokes at times [laughs], anyway different thing he said, ‘be very careful what you say because that one there, is a Nazi’. The only time they listened to the radio was when Hitler was making a speech so he said, ‘very, very careful what you say’. He used to go to the cupboard there, get this radio out, switch it on when Hitler finished speaking, disconnect, back in there, so he said, ‘be very careful’ [laughs], and from there I went in an ambulance, that’s right. They took me to an old camp, the French, French and Belgians in there and um, I’d asked one Frenchman there, he spoke English, if he could get me some information because we were right next to an airfield and they were working on the airfield, and I said, ‘can you get me an old coat to wear and er, then I can make my way with you to this airfield’. Somehow I was going to, although I was a wireless op, I knew the controls and I was going to try and steal a plane and get back home.
AM: This is in the first camp after the hospital?
RW: In the first camp, yes, and er, it was a rough old camp. I remember the blanket I had was 1917, and er, it was rough, and er, and I’ll never forget having, oh yes, they said, ‘can’t you taste that?’ I said, ‘why it’s all right’. I was eating this stuff, sauerkraut [laughs], rough sauerkraut, they were dished up with, I said, ‘no’ [laughs]. Anyway just after that, next day, two great big Nazi’s came in, ‘wait’, so this Frenchman must have, must have told them what I was up to because they took me and after seeing films of people being taken for a ride, I went in this Opel I think, I think the car was an Opel, it was an Opel, and the one as big as Gary. I had one each side of me, I was down middle of them, and off we went and er, I was taken down to the station, down near the station, into the large, like a town hall - left, right, left, right - up in front [laughs], not so nicer man, this CO, and he said, ‘right, this and that’ [unclear] it was a big desk, I’ll never forget and he said, ‘this man here has had his orders, and he is going to take you on the train to Frankfurt and he’s been warned and told that if you try to escape, or do anything, he will shoot you dead’.
AM: He spoke to you in English?
RW: Oh yes, oh yes in English, and so um, I was, people were trying to attack me on the way up, up to this town hall.
AM: Civilians?
RW: And one man came with a knife and the guard had to fend him off and others because they’d had an air raid there, you see, and so off I went, and went up to this town hall and that’s when he had his orders, anyway I was taken back down to the railway station.
AM: What town was this Ron?
RW: This was in Cologne.
AM: You were in Cologne by then.
RW: Yes, and I was driven right the way down there, and so I thought, oh yes. When I was in the waiting room and other er, Germans were in there, you see, drinking coffee, suppose that’s coffee and things like that, nothing was offered to me [laughs] and so then I said oh, ‘stand up’, and the door opened, as this door opened a major (unclear) he came in.
AM: An English, a German?
RW: No a German, a German major, he came in and they all gave the Nazi salute, ‘Heil Hitler, Heil Hitler’, yes, I came out I said, ‘Heil Churchill’, oh, he was just turning to go and I said this, and he got his gun out his Mauser, his Mauser or whatever it was, and I thought, well you’ve done it this time [laughs], and then he said ‘English schweinhund’ (unclear) off he went. I got away with that one [laughs], especially as I had just had this
AM: The warning?
RW: Warning yes, and um, and that was that and so when the train came, we went up to Frankfurt and um, he was watching me like a hawk.
AM: Were you handcuffed to him or anything?
RW: No, no.
AM: There was nowhere to run to though is there?
RW: No, but all the way I was wondering how I was going to belt him and looking at the window, how strong is it because I was going to smash it with his rifle, you see.
AM: Right.
RW: And it was quite a journey, beautiful trip from Cologne, up to Frankfurt but that’s in my mind all the time, how am I going to get out of here and get rid of him [laughs], and then the chance didn’t come, didn’t come. His eyes were on me every step of the way, he was scared he would have been shot if I had escaped, and so we went to my first real prison camp that was up to the um, what they called, it wasn’t a Stalag, before the Stalag.
AM: Was it a Dulag, Ron?
RW: A Dulag, and once again this officer, German officer came in and I was in the cell there, and one very high window, and er, oh he said, ‘I speak English very well, I was educated in Oxford’, and er, he said, ‘you will find we will treat you very well now, but er, a few things to add’, and er, he said, ‘this form here’, he’d got a form with a red cross on the top, ‘so all you need do is answer a few questions, so there you are’, and he said, ‘first of all, do you smoke?’, and I smoked in those days, so he got a packet of Capstans and a box of Swans.
AM: Vesta.
RW: Vesta matches, put them on the top there and there I was, smoking away, ‘right then, first things, name, rank, number’, that’s all right, name, rank, and number, and so put those in, he said, ’good, then we will let your parents know or what have you, that you are alive and well and injured’, and so um, that’s all right. ‘Now these other things’, and I looked on this form, ‘what squadron, your CO, what was his name, and the airfield you took off from, what was the aircraft you were flying, note it down here’. ‘There we are and that’s all I can give you, name, rank and number’. He said, ‘surely you want your people to know, you want your parents to know you’re alive?’, ‘yes course I do and that’s what you have to do because that’s all I’m giving you, my name, rank and number’. Then he became a German, and he went red and he did a lot of words came out that weren’t English and he said, ‘then you’ll stay here until you do fill that in’, and [laughs], and he grabbed the matches and cigarettes and put them in his pocket, and so I was fortunate in as much as I had to be taken up to the hospital to get my bullet hole seen to [laughs] and so I got away with that. Next cell he, whoever it was, had had a rough time, I heard him groaning and yelling and I think they beat him up because he wouldn’t answer and I refused too. The next morning they had taken my uniform away through the night, they’d taken it, I had to strip it off and they took it all away. The next morning, I saw they knew where the map was in the shoulder, then they’d taken the button off.
AM: So all the stuff that was to help you to escape?
RW: That’s right, they knew where it was, they’d taken it and the needle, the compass needle had gone out of the button [laughs] so then you weren’t full of tricks, and so that was Dulag, and from there, I was taken, I went to, yes, Stalag Luft 1, yes, I was taken there next.
AM: Were you still being taken on your own or were you with other prisoners by then?
RW: No I went in, the other prisoners I met there in Dulag and um, you know it was great to meet them and speak English, it was great and they’d give tips and that. I went to Stalag Luft 1 and um, then we stood at the gate welcoming the boys coming in and it was a sandy soil and we got them to throw the lighters and things in there, because the guards were trying to keep us back, you see, and as we went towards the gate, we did this at every camp we went to, throw your things in, throw them in, throw them in, because they had been stripped of things mostly and so what they did, pick them up and give them back to him and then, and then when we couldn’t get down to things, we just trod them in.
AM: Trod them into the ground?
RW: Into the ground as they forced us back, because them bleeders were very sharp [laughs].
AM: So you could go back for them later?
RW: Yes that’s it, and especially went from Stalag Luft 1 and then did about eighteen months there and then we were moved to Stalag Luft 3 and er -
AM: So what year are we now, 41 probably?
RW: My god, yes.
AM: So you were shot down early 41.
RW: January 41 yes.
AM: And then you were in hospital and eighteen months.
RW: I wasn’t in the hospital for eighteen months.
AM: No, no, the hospital and then you were in Stalag Luft 1 for eighteen months.
RW: That’s right.
AM: So we are now?
RW: Now in Stalag Luft 3.
AM: Probably early 43?
RW: About 43.
AM: By this time.
RW: And we did, and went to this new camp, er, we hadn’t heard of before.
AM: How did they move you, on trains?
RW: Yes, and er, yes, on cattle trucks, they weren’t very clean. There’s wire both sides of the entrance of the cattle truck and we were put in twenty each side, standing up, you couldn’t sit down, we were packed in. When you think half a cattle truck, and so this is how we moved, sometimes we had better accommodation but this new camp we went to was Stalag Luft 3, everything is new there, all the huts were new and so we started a different life.
AM: Were you the first intake into Stalag Luft 3?
RW: We were yes, from Stalag Luft 1 into Stalag Luft 3, and then, after that, they started to bring the RAF prisoners from other camps into Stalag Luft 3, and er, they said, ‘you’ll never escape from here, we’ve learnt too many lessons’, but we did, the lot, a lot of people said they tried, escaped from there and they probably tried but they didn’t succeed and it was difficult, and then all the different things, books had been written by prisoners [laughs] and things, no, it was very difficult. I tried once and out of the corner of our hut, I got down and one man from Cheltenham said, ‘you’ll get us all shot, you know’ because I dug through the floor and dug down and I could see where workmen had been, electricians or something yes, been working outside and there was a trench near the camp, near the um, wire and so I got down there and then got out there in the early hours of the morning. It was dark and er, I thought I can get under the wire, get under there, escape, fair enough, so I tried this and then I heard a guard approaching with his dog. Dogs, they were more like wolves, and he had got this one and I heard him coming along and so I got out of there, swiftly went up the road, oh yes, and I had an experience, I ran between two huts and I didn’t see wire stretching from one hut to the other and I ran into it, and it got me in the mouth, took me off my feet and I was strung up and the wire went into my mouth and forced, forced my teeth out. I lost seven teeth, and I landed on my back and then there was the guard and the dog, and he was afraid of that dog as I was [laughs], they weren’t trained to be friendly and so I was put into the cooler from there.
AM: What was that like?
RW: Rough. I had water to drink, bread, well when they say bread, black bread, just bread and er, I was in there for over a week.
AM: On your own?
RW: Oh yes, yes, oh yes.
AM: And no teeth.
RW: No teeth, they’d come out, I have no teeth now. I tell people that um, if I’ll say I had my teeth out, all paid for [laughs]. But um, all the time we were trying to, if we had any ideas about escaping, we had they had to go to this Massey who was the -
AM: What was the name sorry, Ron?
RW: Massey, Group Captain Massey, and you had to give your ideas to him for the escape committee, but something we noticed when we first went into Stalag Luft 3, that one part where the fence was, they hadn’t built any German huts or anything there, it hadn’t been finished. And so John Shaw, my good friend, he noticed this first and he said, ‘we’re gonna go try that’, he said, ‘we go first, the four of us’, I forget the other one and he said, ‘I go first because I noticed it first’. I said, ‘okay, then I’ll go, you get away now, I’ll go follow on’.
AM: How were you going to get out, were you going to tunnel under?
RW: Tunnel under there because they hadn’t built anything that side, so this is what we are going to do, and so you’ve got to appreciate, so John decided to go. What happened, bang, bang, and I have a photograph I’ll show you, with John, and shown in his coffin, he was shot right through the heart, so if people thought that these guards were asleep in the huts, no, and they were crack shots, they got him right through the heart, poor John.
AM: So the other three of you didn’t go?
RW: No, we’d been discovered that was it.
AM: Did you know the people who were involved in the great escape?
RW: No.
AM: No.
RW: No, they were mainly officers. You see what happened, we started off these tunnels under the cooking, took that away and then got all that (unclear) and then dug down to do the tunnels, but then again, we said this would happen, the officers took over, we started it as sergeants and then they said, ‘no, we are going to take over’, and then we were moved eventually to Heydekrug.
AM: To?
RW: Heydekrug.
AM: Which is?
RW: Heydekrug.
AM: Which is another camp?
RW: Which is another camp, yes, so we’d done a lot of work. I was, I helped out with moving the earth wearing these things there, but the soil, the soil we brought up from below, it was a different colour, so we had to take this earth from down below, walk around, walk around and distribute it and dig it in as we were moving, because they were watching us all the time.
AM: These are from the tunnels you dug?
RW: That’s right, yes [laughs], and we were getting rid of the earth, tons of earth, you know. It’s boring.
AM: Well yes, what else did you do in camp?
RW: Oh all kinds of things, apart from trying to escape [laughs], and er, we wrote shows. We did this, you see, and Les Knowle became a very good friend of mine and he was a pianist before the war, before he joined up and he, a professional pianist, was very good too.
AM: Was he the one next door to you in Morecambe or a different pianist?
RW: No, no, it was a different one.
AM: A different one.
RW: No, Les Knowle, he was a different one. This one I’m trying to think of his name, Ron, I forget now, but he went on to the BBC and worked from there and he was on the RAF Band.
AM: Yes.
RW: And then he became well known.
[Interruption]
AM: I’m just going to pause for a moment.
RW: Have you anywhere else.
AM: No, no, so we’ve got shows, what about, did you do any education they had?
RW: Oh yes, yes, and um, I’ve a pencil, and I was studying maths actually and I was going to do a course on maths and it was difficult because it was very, very cold, very cold, up in Lithuania, this was and getting close to Russia and so I was studying and then trying to write out holding the pencil.
AM: So literally holding it with whole of your hand?
RW: That’s right.
AM: Trying to write.
RW: Trying to write, it wasn’t easy, but it was quite good and then I studied, I was studying, was architect because I had been in the building trade, you see. I was taken away from the factory when I was fourteen.
AM: When you were fourteen yes.
RW: By my brother-in-law, who was, um, he’d come to the factory, fortunately before they absolutely killed me [laughs], and he said, ‘you, out’ and he took me away and made me an apprenticeship joiner.
AM: So you were a joiner. Going back to the camp in Lithuania.
RW: Oh Yes.
AM: So what happened then as, what did you know about what was happening in the war?
RW: We had clever people as sergeants, not all officers then. We had people from all walks of life as sergeants.
AM: As sergeants yes.
RW: And er, we had entertainers from the stage, and I wrote um, with Les Knowle, he wrote the music and I wrote the words for shows on the stage and I’ll show you a picture of him, but I don’t know if you have ever heard of Roy Dotrice?
AM: Yes
RW: You have? Well Roy, I’ll show you a picture.
AM: His daughter was an actress, Michelle.
RW: That’s right, he had two daughters, one lives in the States, Michelle, I was watching her the other night.
AM: And was he in the prison camp with you?
RW: Yes, yes, and then I never thought that he would, because he was very young, he was born in Jersey and he changed his age. He was very much younger than me then and he came over to the mainland and joined the RAF.
AM: What happened at the end of the war, how did you find out that the war was ending and what happened?
RW: Oh yes, now then, we had our radios that were built out of things, things we’d stolen from the Germans. I remember walking behind one man carrying, carrying a box and stealing something out of there and when they, they used to um, we used to be woken up in the early hours of the morning by the Nazis. They used to come in and get us out of bed, tear the place apart, and never put it back again, and all things taken out and then we would be walking around the compound from the early morning to late at night while these Nazis were searching and they, yes, and they used to go away with things. Oh yes, we used to steal their hats and their gloves and they weren’t very happy [laughs], and also if anyone escaped, they used to have what we called a sheep count, and they’d form up the barriers so we used to have to go through, and they’d check and check the numbers, you see, and we used to go through and then we used to go back round, and come in again, in the end they had more prisoners than they wanted [laughs], and that was one gag we got up to, and then some had contact at home. You’ve possibly seen it in the letters they used a code in a letter which the Germans couldn’t spot.
AM: To say where they were?
RW: That’s right, all kinds of things.
AM: So how did you find out that the war was coming to an end? From the radios?
RW: From the radios we had, yes. We had certain guys who were very clever, clever electricians among us, all kinds of things they used to do, where if a German came in the front about or something, a buzzer would ring at the far end telling whoever was doing something, escape committee at the other end.
AM: To stop them?
RW: Then bury the stuff again.
AM: Gosh.
RW: And then all things like that and um, the, yes, parts for the radios be stolen from the Germans [laughs] and they would build a main radio that one clever man used to operate. I forget the names now and um, they used to come around the huts and give us the, the news we used to get daily news, we knew exactly what was happening back home, and e,r when the invasion came, the first time, the Germans were gloating when they said, ‘that was your invasion’, when so many Canadians were killed, remember, my minds going.
AM: On the beaches at, yes.
RW: Yes, where so many were killed, and the Germans thought that was our invasion. They said, ‘you’ve had your invasion, you’ll be here’, I was told that I would be there for the rest of my life, they used to enjoy telling us this, that we would be there and we will be rebuilding Germany.
AM: Because they would win.
RW: That’s right.
AM: Sadly for them but thankfully for us.
RW: Oh, thankfully for us.
AM: They didn’t.
RW: But they loved telling us that we would be there forever.
AM: When it did all end? Were you involved in the long march?
RW: Oh yes.
AM: You were.
RW: That was the worst part of it.
AM: Gary’s making faces.
Gary: I’ll leave it.
RW: Okay. That was a tough one, the long march.
AM: How long were you on the march for, Ron?
RW: I can’t think now.
AM: Months, it was months, wasn’t it?
RW: Months, months, bad weather, bad weather, so many died, and then we were, we had no food and they’d been trying to get through to us and then this one Red Cross wagon appeared and he said, ‘this is the third load I’ve had. I’ve been shot at, and destroyed, then I have gone back and got another load’, and finally, well you know the story.
AM: Sadly.
RW: And some sights there, on that march, and one man, he was signalling with his coat in the meadow, this meadow where we were, shot up by the fighters and I saw him just cut in the air.
AM: Shot at by German fighters?
RW: No, by our fighters.
AM: By our fighters.
RW: Yes, they thought we were Germans.
AM: Right.
RW: And he was just cut in two, Roger. Next time I saw him, just his legs standing there, top half gone and they killed forty, fifty of us there, it was a rough one. Oh, and we were in twos, they delivered these Red Cross parcels, we shared one between two, and when we were shot at by Typhoons by the way, based locally and all the way through, we’d been shot at by Spitfires, and what have you, Hurricanes, they thought we were Germans. And on one occasion, we were walking, they made us walk at night because, so through the day, we had to sleep in barns with their animals, and the Germans, the German people used to give things to the guards but nothing to us, not like this country where there were prisoners, their prisoners there given food but we never got anything from the Germans. If we wanted a drink, we had to wait till we got to rivers, lakes, or something or get washed.
AM: So how did you get rescued in the end?
RW: Oh that is another story. The 10th Hussars. We were hearing reports our, our troops across the Rhine and how close they were getting and we were being marched away, we were going to be hostages and Hitler would have got rid of us eventually, we’d have been shot or what have you. We were heading for Norway somewhere and they were taking us as we were going to be hostages, but so many things happened we were shut up, barns were set on fire, men were there.
AM: With men in them?
RW: Yes.
AM: Yes. But the 10th Hussars were?
RW: The 10th Hussars caught up with us and oh, they were marvellous, they treated us like royalty. They set up trestles in this village in Ratzeburg in Lubeck, Ratzeburg, and er, this little village and it was in March, was it May?
AM: So May of 45?
RW: We went through Luneburg, where they signed the Armistice, and we went through there and then we came back through there when the signing had been done, and it was marvellous, so they set up tables there with food on, couldn’t eat it.
AM: I was going to say, could you eat it?
RW: No, no. One man died because he tried, he tried to eat, couldn’t. Then we came back from Lowenberg on Lancasters and I’ll never forget seeing white girls, posh ladies all made up, I thought they, I thought they were on the stage somewhere, heavy lipstick.
AM: Once you got back you mean?
RW: And this is when we, no, when the 10th Hussars. Oh yes, that’s another one, we had the, this major, English major. I said, ‘can I help?’ because I had had stomach trouble and couldn’t eat anything, so I felt this marvellous feeling.
AM: Freedom.
RW: Freedom, marvellous after four and a half years, freedom. And I’d stuck my neck out several times, one man, I bent down to pick up food or something, I don’t know what it was, peas somebody dropped on the road, and this guard, he came behind me, kicked me up the backside and I went over and I got up and turned round to gonna belt him, and the look on his face, and his Tommy gun was there waiting for it, just what he wanted. All they wanted, an excuse.
AM: To kill you?
RW: Yes and er -
AM: When you saw the Lancaster?
RW: Oh yes.
AM: You’d been in Whitleys, what did you think of the Lancaster?
RW: We saw the side of it really [laughs].
AM: Four engines.
RW: Four engines, yes, marvellous.
AM: So they brought you home in the Lanc.
RW: Yes, they landed at, forget now where it was, down South somewhere, and as we landed they opened the door and a lovely young WAAF came, and I had my box with some belongings in. This girl got it and I grabbed it back from her she said, ‘it’s all right you are home now’ [laughs] and er, she led me off and as I was talking to her, going up to the hangar, I said, ‘this is a holiday’, this is VE Day, you see. I said, ‘you’re on holiday, what are you doing here?’ She said ‘oh we volunteered, we were the lucky ones’. I couldn’t understand it ‘cos we were filthy and the first this they did - whoosh, whoosh, whoosh.
AM: Shower?
RW: Not a shower.
AM: Water?
RW: No - debugged.
AM: Oh right, oh sorry, they sprayed you?
RW: That’s right, yes, before anybody could touch us [laughs] and then they had all this food out, I couldn’t eat anything, not a thing, and then from there we came up on the train to where we went, see that photograph, and we came up there, all there, all the records were up there. That was marvellous. Then one day we were taken over, over there, records and what have you, but I went home and that was a rough time because I found my wife, I had my daughter, was that much older, she was only two and a half when I went away, she was seven she didn’t know me, didn’t know me, didn’t want to know me. And er, then my wife had met me at the station, although I didn’t want to see her because I’d had reports and she wrote to me and didn’t want to know me ‘cos she’d met an American and she wanted to get married to him. And so um, that was my homecoming, didn’t want to know me. I‘d had a letter from her saying she wanted a divorce, which I wanted too after that, and then my folks had been trying to meet the train to tell me what she had been up to, what she’d become, well you can understand it, it had been a long time.
AM: Yes.
RW: But the way she did it, she dyed her hair, it was red, and er, I’d asked a friend in camp who came from Stoke, from near where I was, where I lived, if he could find out why, what’s happening because she didn’t write to me. I’d only one letter that I had and she wanted more money, it’s all she was interested in.
AM: So your pay while you were a prisoner of war goes to your wife, doesn’t it?
RW: That’s right, it went to her and then she wanted more money, and so I came back and went up and met my wife, as I say, I didn’t know anything what she had been doing, no one had told me and this friend in camp, I’d asked him to find out what was happening, why I hadn’t had any letters from my, my wife and er, he put it off all the while. I said, ‘have you heard from your wife?’, ‘no’. I didn’t know anything about it.
AM: He wouldn’t tell you?
RW: No, and so when I got back, it was my wife who knew, my wife. He said to me, he said, ‘Ron, I couldn’t tell you what I found out about her’.
AM: No.
RW: Couldn’t tell you. So I met her and she was all over me and I met all her sisters and her brothers because it’s difficult, very difficult because my folks had been trying to meet me off the train but she’s the one who had been told.
AM: She’s the one who’s entitled to know.
RW: That’s right, and she’d got the time of the train, she met me, all the other trains had been coming in my side had been.
AM: They all missed you?
RW: They’d all missed me, everyone.
AM: Oh dear.
RW: My homecoming and I felt like going back.
AM: You married again though. Amy.
RW: Yes.
AM: I’ve met Amy and she is lovely for the record.
RW: Yes, oh the best thing that ever happened to me.
AM: Wonderful. I’m going to switch off now, Ron.
RW: Yes okay.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ron Wade
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-26
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWadeR150726, PWadeR1503
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:44:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Description
An account of the resource
Ron was born in Stoke-on-Trent. He left school at fourteen and tells of his experiences working in a pottery factory doing odd jobs until he was called up. He joined the Royal Air Force in 1939 at the age of twenty-two. Ron trained as an air gunner at RAF Morecambe after initially wanting to be selected for pilot training. He completed his air gunner training in South Wales at the end of the Battle of Britain - he tells of being strafed by a Junkers 88 and the damage that was inflicted to the Nissen huts. Ron flew the Whitley, which he did not enjoy. He then went to an Operational Training Unit at RAF Abingdon before moving to 58 Squadron based at RAF Linton on Ouse. Ron tells of being forced to bale out in 1941 after his Whitley was attacked by two German fighters over the the Netherlands. He did not remember that much since ammunition was exploding and a bullet hit him in the back of the head, leaving him with memory, taste and smell impairment. Ron also tells of his first interrogation by a German officer and how his humour nearly causing trouble at the at Cologne railway station. He was transferred to Stalag Luft I and then to Stalag Luft III. Ron tried a few times to escape but was discovered every time - he also details the death of his close friend during one attempt. Ron was eventually transferred to Stalag Luft VI (Heydekrug, Lithuania) which was his last camp before the end of the war. However, with the end looming, Ron was then forced to go on the long march. He then tells of some of his memories of the event, including being strafed by British fighters. Ron was freed when the British Army 10th Hussars caught up with the group near Lubeck, and he tells the story of his homecoming in May 1945.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Lancashire
Netherlands
Poland
Germany
Lithuania
Poland--Żagań
Germany--Barth
Lithuania--Šilutė
Wales
Germany--Oberursel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1945-05
58 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bale out
bombing
crewing up
Dulag Luft
escaping
Ju 88
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Morecambe
Stalag Luft 1
Stalag Luft 3
Stalag Luft 6
strafing
the long march
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/636/8906/PRoyallG1501.2.jpg
0a43597407d34fdf30e7fa082c141640
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/636/8906/ARoyallG150720.1.mp3
8866f25d80be3654ab1a04cf8bfee066
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Royall, George
G Royall
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Royall, G
Description
An account of the resource
46 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer George Royall (1801494 Royal Air Force) his flying log book, photographs, correspondence, course notes, examinations, newspapers and parts of magazines. He served as a bomb aimer on 166 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by George Royall and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-20
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GC: OK, good afternoon. This is Gemma Clapton on behalf of International Bomber Command. I am here with Warrant Officer George Royall and we are going to discuss his role during the war and anything else he would like to tell me. George, please?
GR: OK. Well I’ll start from the time when I volunteered to join the RAF and I wanted to go into air crew and this meant that I had to go up to London and have all the tests for mathematics and educational tests and then it went on to physical tests to see if you would pass OK from the health point of view, and then an interview with a number of officers to find out what your interests were, what you wanted to do in the Air Force, and air crew and like most people the first thing I wanted to do was be a pilot. They decided that they‘d have to check. I had to sit with my back to wall and put my legs out on the floor and there in front of me about a foot away was a brass bar and as my feet didn’t reach that distance I was not able to be considered as a pilot. They then looked at the results of the tests that I’d done and the medical and the educational side and decided they could offer me a post as — at that time it was a plural (?). So I accepted that. I was very keen to get into the Air Force and they said I’d have to wait a couple of months so I had a little badge to say I was on deferred service so that there were no white feathers coming my way while I’m waiting and then in due course I received my papers to say to report to London to start training as air crew. I was err, there two or three weeks, again being kitted out with uniform and various other bits and pieces and a few inoculations and some drill from the sergeants to see if they could smarten us up a bit so that we could walk smartly in our uniforms and then I was then posted to ITW which is Initial Training Wing test so where you do your navigation and all that what was required on that side, mathematics again, studying the stars and it takes about three months, all we were doing was navigation and map reading and the physical testing that you have to do and um, that was quite interesting because I was at Stratford on Avon was my ITW and err, the people there were brilliant and also it was the home of the, Stratford on Avon had their big theatre there which they did all the plays by Shakespeare and that, we were allowed to go in as servicemen and have the best seats in the house for one and sixpence. They used to do three plays a week so they were doing one play that night, forgetting the play they did the night before and learning the play they were going to do the next night and it was fantastic and I learned more Shakespeare than I’d ever learned in school. During this time of course we were doing quite a lot of our tests and running around Stratford getting fit. We used to have to do a five mile walk every morning before breakfast and then we would go back to the classrooms and start doing the physical work there, and it was a quite interesting period. There were twenty eight of us on the course and at the end of that time we then were waiting for our postings as the next step. This all took quite a bit of time because there were lot of people volunteering for air crew and there were a number of ah, people in front of us waiting for their turns and so on and so it took some time between, probably a month or six weeks before you could get on to the next course and from then I went down to, I was posted down to Brighton. That was quite an interesting period of time because there were two hotels that were used by the Air Force at the time, one was the Metropole Hotel and the other one was called the Grand Hotel. The Metropole was the one I was in, most of the British servicemen went to the Metropole but the Grand had mostly Polish volunteers that were going through the Air Force routine. A lot of them had escaped or found their way through Germany ahh, to England and were going to move on into the service from there. At that particular time I did have a cold and needed to go into the hospital for a while and by the time I came out from the, that, my other twenty eight, or twenty other members had already been posted so err, Heaton Park which is near Manchester on their way to the next course and I was struggling to try and catch up with them by labouring everybody from the officers right to go after them and I was about three weeks before I could get up to Heaton Park and by the time that happened they’d already moved on. They’d gone to um, I think it was — moved on to Blackpool I think it was they’d gone to there. And so by the time I got to Heaton Park I then had to wait until another two weeks to try and catch them up and I got to Blackpool they’d moved on and been posted to their training place for their wings tests err, and that was it. They went to Canada. These were the air schools [unclear] mainly from either Canada or they did some in America and South Africa and I got to Blackpool and was waiting for my posting to come up. They called out my name and I went to South Africa which was a long way away from where the other people had gone. I was happy because I preferred the warmer countries rather than Canada so I was quite happy and so my next move then was to, the posting, was to Liverpool with all our packs. I had three kitbags and so I packed both back packs and I had to walk from Liverpool Station to the docks to where I picked up the troop ship that was going to take me South Africa and there was quite a lot going on there because they were going to go in, in convoy and so there was naval ships all getting ready to usher us round and so for three days we were just swinging at anchor. Each time we looked out of the portholes of the ship we thought we were at sea but we’d only swung round looking at the main part of the Liverpool Estuary err, but on the third day we then set sail out towards South Africa, and this was a very interesting journey. It took us approximately six weeks travelling and we were mothered by naval rigs and cruisers floating around us every time there was the risk of submarines in the area they would disappear off looking for the submarines while we sailed slowly, moved on because we had ordinary ships with us as well as our ships. There was another troop ship with us and um, we were only doing I suppose about ten knots. We could only go as fast as the slowest ships that was in the convoy which was some old type ships that we were taking various routes backwards and forwards to England and going back and getting some more from wherever. So then we started our trip and we went, we went round, we didn’t go through the um, — can I stop?
GC: Yes. [pause]. OK.
GR: We were not going to go through the Suez Canal we were gonna go round by the Cape so it was a much further journey and also, to try and avoid the submarines that kept appearing in the area, knowing that the troopships were about, we had to go, first of all we steamed North and almost into Iceland before we started to turn to go to the west and then we went west and as UT navigators and that, we were plotting our course and working out the mileage, or being told the mileage the ship had done each day and we realised that we’d gone oh, well north and could have been approaching Canada or American shores before we started to turn south and went south for some weeks before we then eventually went round to Cape Horn and first of all, and then err, before we got to the Cape and we came past [pause] it was Freetown we came down to that side of the East Coast down past Freetown and we pulled into Freetown and the sights were fantastic, the colours, greenery, it was beautiful and blue seas. There were little boats floating about with the Navy that were posted in Freetown and there were WAAFs in their white uniforms and the sailors in their whites, and it was a fantastic sight. Um, people were coming out from the [unclear] to sell their wares and throwing things up to the decks for us to buy, apples and bananas and all that type of thing. We stayed in there overnight, it was very, very hot and we were wearing our khaki [unclear] and had to pull our sleeves down and make sure we didn’t have our shorts on, had our long trousers on, ah, khaki because of the mosquitoes. Very uncomfortable from that point of view, really hot. And then um, the next day we set sail again to carry on and go round to Durban, called in at Durban and, oh before we entered, we stopped at um, the one before, Capetown and a lot of the troops that were on board, they got off at Capetown, I think they were Palestine Police. Got off at Capetown and we then continued the next day on to Durban where we were taken off the ship because the ship was then going on to um, up towards India, in that direction, with troops going further. Ahh, but we came off at Durban and we were put into, a whole group of us, put into a brick buildings. There were no doors or windows so there was plenty of air through and there was — a lot insects all over the place, in the roof and everywhere there was things flying about where we were stopping. It was a bit uncomfortable. We had bunks, metal bunks and err, our three biscuits for our mattress and it held about ooh, thirty or forty of us in this place and it wasn’t very comfortable. But on the wall at the back where my headboard was, there was a Praying Mantis sitting there waiting for any insects to come flying his way, quite interesting. Ugly looking thing it was and so that was that part of the thing. And um, we were gonna to be there for some time as our next move was to be to the air school where would start our flying. But during this time while we were waiting all we had to do was report for duty first thing in the morning and um, some of us were put on fatigues in the mornings, peeling potatoes and things like that and then the rest of the day we were free. We didn’t have to report again until the next morning and so you could wander all over that part of South Africa where the natives lived and into their huts and where they were and um, we were having quite a good time, it was some — interesting. Some were growing bananas and they had quite a lot of things going on like that and I could reach out from where I was and pick bananas as I wanted and it was a very enjoyable period of time. The people there were marvellous, mostly they were people who had left England and went out to South Africa to live and were having their families out there. Some of them had been out there some ten or fifteen years. So it was quite err, and they were quite good to us, took us, if we were walking along the road anywhere cars would come along and stop and ask if we wanted the rest of the day out. They would drive us down to the sea, [unclear] and we’d go swimming, It was a marvellous country really thoroughly enjoyed it. The only drawback was there was the apartheid that was going where the South Africans themselves, um, Boers they were and they were looking after the black people and they segregated blacks and white people and there was a group they called ah, coloureds, the half castes, where black people had married into the white people and there was another sort of generation type of problem going on. So there were problems in that sense but err, for us out there it was quite an enjoyable period of time. [pause] The Boers used to look after the, a lot of the black men were prisoners because they only had to look at a white woman and they’d be accused of raping them and it didn’t take much for them to accuse a black man to end up in prison and they were, while they were in prison they came out every day, they came out and marched in chain gangs through the town and at various places they’d unhook some of these prisoners and they would go and then they would be the workers for the people in that particular house. They would look after the children or do the cooking or cleaning and things like that, they’d move on. And then during [unclear] in that way their houses at the end of the day they’d all be collected, chained up and marched back to prison again, which was not a very pleasant sight. It was part of South Africa which, which was err, a bit disturbing. Of course later on then, nowadays they got rid of the apartheid fortunately, but at that time it was very rampant. And then from then I then got posted to the air school, 48 Air School and we started our flying and we were flying in Ansons aircraft that was mostly used. Ahh, mostly they went to places like South Africa ‘cos you could fly every day, there was no problem weather-wise and there was no Germans anywhere near by so there was nothing to put us off from going up flying every day. So we used to do our navigation and trips and practising air gunnery and all these sort of things and do our ground course as well because we had to learn all about the stars and navigation using, by using the stars as a means of finding a fix and um, [pause] we would do all the ground work that was necessary and be taking our exams from time to time err, until such time as we sat the final exam and if we passed that we then got our wings, which was now as an air bomber because they split the observer trade into two because there was so much problems with earlier bombs not going into Germany, that they weren’t getting close to their targets or they were dropping their bombs miles away from their target so they decided they needed more technical help and needed more staff to operate things like H2S and G and the navigator was left to do the plotting on to the ground course map the course and pass the information to the pilot and the bomb aimer used to do the map reading, operate the G and H2S and the navigator could then do his work easier, a bit easier, with all the calculations because he used to have to plot a fix every six minutes which was [laughter] a pretty horrendous task really and they’d keep changing and working out from the wind directions and from the air speed and a lot of information was being fed to the navigator, some from the pilot giving him speeds and air speeds and the bomb aimer would be passing the information as to when he got fixes across rivers or along the coast line and times of where exactly and accurately put on the navigators plot so he could actually check he was on the course correctly, and um in the event of — We then got our wings and then ready to return back to England but even that was a bit of a problem, there was twenty of us on the course and they decided that there would be, I think it was five, five going back to England and the rest was going to go up to North Africa as they had sufficient on a course so they could be able to be bomb aimers in North Africa where they were going to be up, going to Tobruk where there were British people up, up there. The Germans barricaded them in and the Americans were flying bombing missions trying to bomb the German tanks and they were using pattern bombing and they had about twenty bombers flying over the, at fairly low level and they had a master bomber in the first aircraft and as they, out of the bombers, the bomb aimers they were just going up there not with very much experience they would be flying in the other aircraft and when the master bomber got to the right position, as they were over the top of the German tanks, he would drop the bombs on his and everybody else would drop their bombs so they were plastering the German tanks with bombers from quite low level and it didn’t need a lot of navigation, they just followed the master bomber. So that’s why they went and left five of us to come back to England, which they want us to do that we decided that it, would be a draw, there’d be five crosses in a hat, for us to, those who got the cross would be ones that came back to England. They also found that there were three members of the, who were on the course that were married, and they were automatically going to be sent home, although they’d only got married a week before they got the troop ship to go out, so it wasn’t a lot different to us. So there were only two crosses that were going to be counted. So there were two crosses left in the hat and we just took turns to see who got the cross and I thought well, I went up first because I thought the crosses were in there. If I wait somebody else would get up so I’ll go first and if I fish about I might find it and I did, I was lucky I got a cross and one other man got a cross and that was my passport back home. So that was my, and err, I think we waited about three weeks for the ship to take us back, this time it was a Dutch ship, it was the, it was, we were just going to go back without any cover from the navy at all because it was a ship that could do twenty odd knots and we just came straight back to England. The high speed and was back home after, it took us about three weeks, just under three weeks to go back to England instead of the six weeks it took us going out. So that was my trip to South Africa.
GC: OK, tell me a little bit about station life here, where you were stationed here in England.
GR: Ah, well. Well first of all when I came back from South Africa I had to go to OTU, an operation unit, there was more training to do there and then we went to, that was in North Wales on Anglesey and from there I went to OTU which was just outside, that was at, oh I can’t remember the name of that place now, but anyway that was a conversion unit where we were doing [unclear] flying and on um, that is before we went to the conversion unit. When I got there we went on to, first of all it was ah, we didn’t go on to a Lancaster straight away, there was a another aircraft but we only did a couple of training trips on that when they decided we would go to Kirmington 166 Squadron and they were Lancasters so our conversion was actually on Lancasters. The crew, first of all, on the Abingdon was the OTU was where we actually got crewed up and after doing training and, there we went into a big hangar where pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, radio operators they were all mixed, all there with all the results of the air tests pinned up around the wall and you just wandered around looking at names and associating the information with the people and you tried to get yourself into a crew by saying to, in my case, a pilot came up to me and said ‘have you got a crew yet?’ I said ‘no’, he said ‘would you like to become a member of my crew?’ so I said ‘yes’. He’d already picked a navigator that he’d looked at the results and he was happy with and then we found ourselves a radio operator, a wireless operator so that was the four of us there and so that was the start of our crew and then we were joined by two gunners that had been told which crews they were going to. They didn’t get much choice in the matter as far as I could see but they were attached to ours. That brought us up to six of us [unclear] and then we needed a, I think, and then when we got to, later on, we got a flight engineer joined us so we then became a crew of seven on the Lancasters and we were doing our training to get used to the Lancasters, I think that lasted, [pause] a few weeks and we were then posted to 166 Squadron at Kirmington which was just outside, not far away from Grimsby. Does that answer your question?
GC: Is there a trip or a sortie that sticks in your mind?
GR: A trip?
GC: A sortie?
GR: Oh when I was ops?
GC: Yes.
GR: Ah, well there was a couple. One was when I went to Kiel and that was [pause] I think most of the trips we were doing was to take, make the Germans, put, take their aircraft away from the Russians because Russian areas was where they were having problems, as you know, towards the end of the war, ah and Kiel was well defended, there was quite a lot of flak and also crossing the coast there were guns going off there quite a lot. There were quite a few fighters about and that was where the last pocket battleship was and by the time we got there it was already burning. The bombers in front of us had dropped bombs on to it and it was blown on its side and we were going in dropping bombs as well and to make sure that that wouldn’t be any good at all. That was the last pocket battleship. That was quite a hectic night that night and when we came from there the navigator took us on a quick route out to come back home and that was about an eight hour journey altogether. So that was that one and the other one was um, I think it was, I’m not sure if it was a Nuremberg one but there was one other trip in which we got coned in searchlights. As you fly in to the target area you can see, as a bomb aimer, you’re on the nose, you can see all the flak which is coming up over the target area and it’s about err, it looks a mile thick and there’s twinkling lights all the time, the shells bursting and you can see that from at least eight minutes before you get there and you know you’ve got to fly through all that flak before you can start dropping the bombs etc and that was while we were flying through we got searchlights again, suddenly there were searchlights and we were waving about and we were coned by the master searchlight, he got on to us. Once the master gets you all the searchlights come on to you. Every searchlight that was on focussed on that aircraft and that happened to be us this time which was very scary. You can’t see it’s so, absolutely brilliant [emphasis] light and obviously the pilot was then doing the corkscrewing and so diving down and pulling out at the bottom of the dive and back up again in the opposite direction and back down again to try and get out of the searchlights. While you’re doing that the actual G Force on you was clamping you to the side of the aircraft or the floor, wherever you are, and you can’t move, you can’t even think straight. You can’t see, expecting the shells, suddenly expecting to be blown apart because once you’re coned there’s very little chance of getting out. But err, this particular time, our pilot was brilliant and he did eventually escape the coning. Took us about three or four minutes before we got back in the darkness again and breathe again and move again which was about one of the worst experiences that I had. [pause] Certainly not recommended. [pause]
GC: Tell me a little bit about life actually at the station. What was it like to see your station when you came home?
GR: [sighs] Well, [pause] you’re a bit exhausted and as we used to fly in towards Grimsby and coming in to the squadron there was Kirmington Church – had a green spire, you could see that. It was a beautiful sight when you see that as you’re coming in. You get that feeling of peace coming over you, at last you can relax and the other thing I noticed, it was the time of year, on top of the hill where we were there had been peas grown and they’d all been cleared off and bare ground sort of really and it was a mass of poppies the whole field was a mass of poppies and you could see that from miles away, see that poppy and you could see both the poppies and the green spire of Kirmington. It was a beautiful welcome back home and it was lovely I enjoyed that very much, and err, that was great. And then once we’d landed and went to debriefing um, you could then have your eggs and bacon and then you were free and you could go round to your bed. Our bed was in the woods at the bottom of the hill at Kirmington and there were about three crews in this Nissen hut. There were no facilities there, no toilets or any of that sort of thing, just a bare Nissen hut. I used to walk through the woods up to what was the, there was a big arch there on top of the hill and err, [pause] oh crikey, I can’t think of the name of the — It was an arch dedicated to the man that owned all the ground where the farmers were renting out their farms and I think he was a lord or something like that, anyway, through this arch I used to walk through and sit down on, just outside of the arch and you could look at and down to the bottom of the hill on the other side of the arch there was a big lake. I used to sit and look at the lake and think of the peace, the change. Nothing, no sound, nothing, just sit there looking into the lake and trying to get your breath back from where you’d been and it was a complete change to sit thinking. It was really marvellous sight and it lived in my mind, as it does today. I can always see that arch and the lake and the peace, yes. They were periods that I remember very much. (sound of cutlery on china)
GC: How about family, how did they go through the war? Were you married?
GR: Ah, well I got, yes, I’m just, getting confused. I was married while I was at Kirmington, yes and my wife used to come up to stay. She used to stay in the village just by the airfield and part of the time while I was doing the ops she was there while I was on the squadron and um, she came up later on and she stayed with some people in the local village and they were very good. We had a marvellous time with them. They had two children and I used to go and stay there some nights and yeah they were brilliant. In fact, when the war ended I used to go back there with my wife and we used to, went back there for years and years until he, the man finally died, ‘cos he was an older man and then we still kept in contact with the children as they grew up and err, we made a lot, quite a lot of friends in that village.
GC: How about the Lancaster? You say you flew the Lancaster. How was she as a plane, what was she like to be in?
GR: What was the first —
GC: The Lancaster, what was the Lancaster like to fly in?
GR: Oh, it was marvellous, it was the greatest aircraft I’d ever been in and err, yeah it brings tears to your eye when you even hear it today. Last year I went back to Kirmington and I visited the squadron and one or two squadrons round about and I went to Bomber Command’s Lancaster and I went to the Kirton Lin — is it, Kirton?
GC: Kirkby?
GR: Pardon?
GC: East Kirkby?
GR: East Kirkby, that’s right. They have the Lancasters there which um, I had a ride in the bomb nose round on the peri-track and I was able to go right up into the nose and I went back seventy years in my mind as we were going round in that and it was fantastic. The sounds is beautiful. I’ve got a photograph on the wall there of my visit and I was entertained real royally by the people at Kirton (sic) and yes it was great and then I went to where the [pause] the one and only Lancaster, the flying Lancaster. I went back there and I got into the nose there. They took me round the Lancaster there, it was another great experience.
GC: So, good memories?
GR: Oh yes. I was talking to the pilot and he was asking me how the Lancaster behaved when we did the, when we got caught in the [pause] hmm.
GC: Spotlight?
GR: Ahh, goes out of my mind. At ninety three it’s most difficult to remember the words but err, [long pause]. When we did the corkscrewing, that’s the word I’m trying to think of. When the aircraft does a corkscrew he wanted to know how the Lancaster stood up to it. Of course with their Lancaster they can’t do that they can only fly gently and err, with our one when we were in the corkscrew it behaved absolutely brilliantly. It took all the strain and it was, it winged and waggled about it a bit but there were no cricks or cracks or anything. It was, it was a lifesaver, it was brilliant and we had a great pilot. He’d been in Canada for two years before he came to us and he’d been training pilots and he decided he wanted some action and by the time he came back to England that’s when he managed to join in, pick his crew and that’s when I joined with him and um, it was him that saved our lives really because his piloting was fantastic and the aircraft behaved absolutely brilliant.
GC: I know air crews and ground crews were very protective of their planes. Did you ever bring one home not in one piece? Did you ever get damaged?
GR: Well, not really damaged but our crew, every time we landed they went over it and it was their [emphasis] aircraft, we only borrowed it as far as they were concerned and they really loved that and they looked at every mark. And we went back one time and we thought we had a hole blown in the side of the aircraft or something because we’d got thrown out of the sky on the way back as if we’d really been hit and I was sent by the pilot back down the plane to look for the damage and I was going very carefully ‘cos I was expecting a great big hole in the aircraft and err, I couldn’t find anything and came back and reported all seemed to be OK. When we got back to the ground crew we reported that we’d been hit, somewhere, but err, and it had been quite severe because it had taken the stick away from the pilot. He had to let go, it was taken out of his hand by the pressure. And, um, the next morning when we came back to the squadron again they said they’d been over the aircraft and there was no real damage except for a piece of shrapnel had lodged in the fins, the elevator of the aircraft and it had jammed in and it forced the elevator which was then [unclear] controls and taken the stick away from the pilot for that few seconds. It was just one bit of flak and it hit that bit of the aircraft. It was still lodged in there, they found the bit of flak as well. So that was the only time they really got close to us that we knew about.
GC: How about at the end of the war? What was your, what did you do at the end once sorties had been finished?
GR: Well when the war finished that was, the squadron formed up and they told us that the war had now ended and that the various countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, they wanted their men back and they were taken off the squadron that very minute. They disappeared from the group and from rest of the people were left. So my pilot went back to Canada because he’d married a Canadian girl while he was out there. The rear gunner was an Australian, he disappeared um, so our crew was broken up, and all the crews had various members of the Commonwealth who were taken away around that time and shipped off back to their home countries, which, at such a speed that we didn’t have time to say goodbye, what’s your name and address because as crews we never met their relatives or their parents or whatever. When we had leave we all went to our own families and then met back again when we came and that — we didn’t socialise apart from as a crew. So we didn’t know one another, we didn’t know where they lived, we weren’t able to contact those. The only people we were able to contact were those that were still left on the squadron, which was rather a shame. I never did hear from my pilot again or the rear gunner. When they died, if they died, I never did know, which was a real sadness to me. But then, after they’d gone what was left were then the various members of the crews, we made into other crews, we made a crew and I went with a Squadron Leader [unclear], his crew must have all been Canadians because he lost his crew completely so he had some, [unclear] crew which was myself and a radio operator and a navigator and we had some, I think we had a couple of gunners as well from somewhere else that made a proper crew and then we were sent on various missions. We did some training together to become a crew and we were sent to places like, we used to fly to Italy and we were fetching back people that had been waiting for their demob numbers to come up such as they come from North Africa into Italy and were in the war fighting in Italy and when the war finished they were just left there waiting for their demob. They never got home until they were demobbed err, unless their leave period came up and then we used to pick them up and bring them back for their leave and take them back again after the leave had finished. They were both WRNS and WAAFs and, as well as the airmen, some airmen who had been released from concentration camps, they’d come back. And so any people like that were put into the Lancasters to bring home as quickly as they could. The Lancaster had white circles painted on the floor and they were about a foot diameter and that was about all the space these people had while we brought them back. They had to stand and hold on to the side of the aircraft all packed in together so we could get as many people in as possible, except that if they were WRNS or WAAFS I think we normally did separate the ladies from the men on the trips, but I used to get, if it was WAAFS or WRNS on board I could generally get two of them in the nose lying on cushions on the way back, that was more pleasant for them and for me. The rest of them just had to sit where they could in the aircraft but err, we would only fly at about 2000 ft when we bringing a load of people back because they wouldn’t have parachutes and we didn’t have parachutes either so it was thought best that we all went without parachutes just in case of accidents and we might be able to land if we weren’t flying at too high a height. So that was our, we carried on doing that until the squadron closed down and I was posted to Kenley waiting for my demob.
GC: I think finally do you have one enduring memory, one emotion from your time?
GR: [pause] One emotion. Well my main emotion was the fact that I was really upset at the way that the squadron was split up and broken up without any thought whatsoever about comradeship that had been formed during our time and, as if, you know, it really hurt me and I think it upset most of the air crew people the way that Bomber Command was discarded for political reasons. That was my main emotion.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with George Royall
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Gemma Clapton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-20
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Sound
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ARoyallG150720, PRoyallG1501
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:02:46 audio recording
Description
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George volunteered to be a pilot but settled for Air Observer. He talks about his selection and training in London and then in Stratford-upon-Avon, where enjoyed the theatre and how, at Brighton, illness separated him from the rest of the course. So, while they went to Canada for their flying training, he went to South Africa.
George sailed from Liverpool to Freetown, where he enjoyed seeing sailors and WAAFs in their whites, the green landscape and the locals selling their wares. He had some free time in Durban and received great hospitality from expats but felt embarrassed by apartheid. He began flying at No. 48 Air School and here his trade changed from air observer to air bomber, so he describes the navigational support role played by air bombers. He received his brevet and while 20 of his course were sent to North Africa, he and four others returned to England. George says he went to an OCU in North Wales and then describes crewing up, going onto Lancasters and being posted to 166 Squadron at RAF Kirmington.
While at Kirmington George married and his wife would come to visit, staying with a local family and making life-long friends.
George describes two memorable operations: Kiel, where he saw a Lancaster hit by falling bombs and Nuremberg, where his aircraft was coned by searchlights. He recalls how, on returning to Kirmington, the sight of the village church and a field of poppies was a beautiful welcome home and that he used to climb a hill near his billet to relax and look at the view.
At the end of the war George flew several trips on Op. DODGE and says that they flew at 2,000 feet because the passengers had no parachutes and so the aircrew did not carry them either. He also describes a visit to East Kirkby, where he was made to feel very welcome. He was asked what it was like to fly in the Lancaster and how it stood up to corkscrewing.
Sadly, George's lasting emotion of his service is of how quickly the closely-bonded crews were split up and sent back to their home countries at the war's end, often without time to exchange addresses or even say goodbye.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Nuremberg
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Abingdon
England--Lincolnshire
England--Grimsby
England--Warwickshire
England--Stratford-upon-Avon
Sierra Leone
Sierra Leone--Freetown
South Africa
South Africa--Durban
South Africa--Port Elizabeth
Wales
Wales--Anglesey
Contributor
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Andy Fitter
166 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bomb struck
bombing
coping mechanism
crewing up
entertainment
fear
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Lancaster
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Nissen hut
observer
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Kirmington
searchlight
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/564/8832/PEmlynJonesA1601.1.jpg
5a87ab19fbe21121173bd90fd1d7fd8e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/564/8832/AEmlynJonesA161012.1.mp3
bc8126645f0b2316e1d629a80b2452f6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Emlyn-Jones, Alun
A Emlyn-Jones
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archvie
Identifier
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EmlynJones, A
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alun Emlyn-Jones (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
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This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anne Roberts, the interviewee is Alun Emlyn-Jones. The interview is taking place at Mr Emlyn-Jones’s home in Cardiff, in Wales on the 12th of October 2016.
AR: Thank you Alun for agreeing to talk to me today.
AEJ: My pleasure.
AR: Also present at the interview is Julie Emlyn-Jones, Alun’s wife.
AEJ: That’s right.
AR: So Alun, could you tell me something about your early life?
AEJ: My early life? Well I was brought up in Cardiff, my parents - I was one of two children, my sister was six years older than me and I was the second one and I spent all my early life here really. Then at the age of ten I was sent away to school, I was banished to England for my education. I was very unhappy at school, it was a very difficult time for me, it was just emotional. I was a home boy, I wanted to stay at home I didn’t really want to go but I went to Summer Fields in Oxford to start with and that’s in my book under the title ‘Nightmare’ [laughing] and then I went on to Charterhouse, which was easier. And then, heaven knows what might have happened, I might have gone on to university and so on I suppose, but as a matter of fact I don’t think I was all that scholastically brilliant because I wasn’t working as much as I should have, but the war came to make my decision for me. So I was able then, my parents let me come home waiting for whatever should happen. When it came to, as you know if you volunteered, even if for a short while before you would have been called up you got the privilege of putting down preferences of where you would go, and I must say I wasn’t directed by anything more noble than the fact that I didn’t really want to slog through muddy trenches, so I decided on, you had to put one for each service. So I put my priority as aircrew in Bomber Command, my second one was the submarines and my one for the Army was in tanks, so the idea was that I was going to be carried wherever I was going [laughter] and in due course I was given my first choice and I went to Penarth, I’ve skipped a lot of my youth I’m afraid, went to Penarth to start training there. I’ve skipped a lot, you want to know more about my youth of course.
AR: No, whatever you want to tell us, it’s fine. So your training was in Penarth?
AEJ: We started our initial training, well we started, we met in Penarth before we were sent out to our stations, you know. We went to various places, all over the place. I spent a lot of time training in South Africa, went out on a troop ship, it took six weeks out and six weeks back, incredible, and did my training in a place called East London in South Africa and then came back in due course.
AR: And what did the training entail Alun?
AEJ: Well I suppose we did a lot of flying, Ansons and aircraft like that and then we graduated I think to Whitleys and it was on Whitleys that I was flying with my first crew at the conversion unit. At that point, at the conversion unit we moved to Halifax, the Halifax which we were going to fly during operations. And that’s what we did, so we flew in the Halifax on a regular basis from RAF Rufforth on the flat plain of York and then one day, my crew, well I had my appendix out, that was a very important thing for me. I had an appendix attack. I was able to get home, or it happened somewhere where I could be at home and I had my appendix attack and I had my appendix out in a local nursing home in Cardiff. I wrote to my skipper Stanley Bright ‘I do worry about one thing’ I said, ‘because this has caused me to leave you now and you may not be able to wait for me’. He said ‘don’t worry a bit, the weather’s clamped, we’re doing very little flying, you’re going to be back in a few weeks and that’ll be fine’ And that was the last I heard of him, from him. They were flying from Rufforth on one of their training trips, conversion trips while I had my appendix, they had taken off but they were In, I think, 10/10ths cloud and they were doing simply something like, a simple exercise, I think something like circuits and bumps, you know landing, taking off, landing, taking off, all that sort of thing and I think they got slightly off track in this dense cloud and didn’t realise, because we didn’t have the sophistication with radar that they have now and didn’t realise that the hill, called Garrowby Hill was between them and the ground and they flew into the hill. They killed a passing truck driver and the plane hit the road near Cot Nab Farm, top of Garrowby Hill and disintegrated in the fields and they were all killed. So suddenly I was left, an odd bod with no crew and ah, had to wait to see what would happen. But of course that caused quite a lot of delay in when I started flying and so on as you can see from my logbook, and eventually I was adopted by a crew whose bomb aimer had been taken, borrowed by another crew, and when he was borrowed he was killed. So they ended up as a crew without a bomb aimer and I was a bomb aimer without a crew and they asked me if I would like to join them which of course I was, I was delighted to because that period of just hanging about, just going wandering about the station, not belonging to anybody was a very difficult time, a very, very difficult time. What I couldn’t understand was the attitude of the, I don’t know who he was, one of the senior officers. I couldn’t understand his sort of antagonism to me. He just interviewed me and wanted to know what I was doing and things like that, and then he said ‘get out’. I couldn’t understand that but later, I think I saw that he had been unaware of me not being killed at the time and included me in the list of those who had died that day and I think that he was feeling guilty about that and took it out on me. There was no other reason, I had no personal contact with him that otherwise could have caused that but that made me feel even more isolated really and I just wandered round very lonely and hopeless for quite a while until my new crew adopted me.
AR: And then you flew a number of missions?
AEJ: Well first of all we had a lovely pilot, he was a great guy, Danny and he’d done 13 ops and crashed with a full bomb load. He broke his back and he’d nevertheless come back to flying again and he adopted us and I had great admiration for him, I think we all did. But I of course, as a bomb aimer it was only over the target that I was in charge really and the rest of the time I did odd jobs. I was assistant pilot, I was assistant navigator and all the bits and pieces that went with it, you know helping the wireless operator and anything they could find for an odd job man really. I used to sit next to Danny on take off and as he pulled the heavy aircraft off the ground he would come out in an absolute sweat and I knew he was in pain. After he’d done six or seven ops or whatever it was, one day we were actually out on the dispersal point waiting to take off and he called us together and he said ‘it’s no good I can’t fly, my back is playing up so badly I’ll kill us all’. And I just said to him, because I thought it would be true, ‘don’t worry Danny they’ll understand’. Well they didn’t. The Wing Commander came out in his Hillman and he treated Danny as though Danny was a traitor of some sort. It was dreadful. He said ‘King get into my car’ and then he turned to us and he said ‘I’m sorry your pilot is LMF - lacking in moral fibre’. I thought that was terribly cruel and we asked if we could have an interview with the Wing Commander, which he granted and I was the spokesman and I went in on behalf of the others, with them, and said ‘we want you to know sir that we have great admiration for Flying Officer King and I told him about his broken back, he ought to have known that from the records, and how he’d carried on despite that and how I could see how much pain it gave him when pulling the aircraft back and that in the end he decided that to save us all, he wouldn’t fly. He said ‘your comments are noted gentlemen’ and that was that. Danny was banished from the airfield and we never saw him again.
AR: How did that make you feel, you and your other crew members?
AEJ: Oh very badly about that, very badly. Then my third pilot came into it and took us over and we went on eventually and completed our tour. Well actually they did the full 30 ops and because I had missed one, the one they were on, actually the first one that I’d missed was the Nuremberg trip where we lost more aircraft than any other raid. Because I’d missed that I was officially granted my tour on 29 ops, that was that. That was how that ended and then I got on to Transport Command and so on and I was [emphasis] going to be posted to Japan and that really frightened me. I’d heard such awful stories about prisoners of war in Japan and I thought that was going to be dreadful and I said to then Wing Commander, I don’t know if it was the same one or not, ‘I wonder if I could have a training job of some sort for a while?’. He said ‘you ought to be honoured to be chosen for Japan’. I could have done without the honour. Anyway, the awful thing, but nevertheless, it saved my bacon, what was it, the atom bomb? Yes the atom bomb, because of that the war became over, the war with Japan finished and thankfully for me, I was saved the task of going out there. Then I went on to Transport Command and did various things and I flew quite a lot really but that was the end of my active [unclear]
AR: Where were you in the transport corps Alun?
AEJ: I can’t remember but I’ve got it in my logbook which is there. Yes I’ll have to look it up.
AR: After the war finished, what did you do then?
AEJ: Well, I had been, before the war, before I got called up, working with a little firm called Copy [unclear] Ltd at Treforest Trading Estate, near here, where we made carbon paper and typewriter ribbons. Before the war, as a young man I was pressing green buttons to make a machine go, red buttons to stop it, and things like that and when I came back they said ‘you’d better go in the sales department’, so I spent a lot of time writing sales letters. Which suited me because I like writing so that suited me very well. What was I going to say now, I’ve forgotten.
AR: Well you were talking to me about after the war. Tell me when you did all the work to create a memorial to your crew at Garrowby Hill.
AEJ: Yes, that’s the memorial there. We go up every year. Julie was able to take the service, bless her, as a, what is it for your church, you are a?
JEJ: That’s not part of it.
AEJ: I wanted to say it.
JEJ: I’m an elder.
AEJ: That’s it - I can’t remember things. She’s an elder at the church, so she is able to take the service, which she does wonderfully and we have, very often, and we’re hoping for the same number this time, about 40 people gathered on the hilltop for that occasion. So we do that every year on Armistice Sunday.
AR: And it was you who got the memorial put up?
AEJ: We did, we arranged that, or I did I suppose, well we both did, didn’t we? Yes we both did. We arranged it. We got very friendly with the people who did it, they did a lovely job as you will see. We’ve got the aircraft on the top and it’s a beautiful memorial. They come every time, the people who made it and I think he’s very proud of it and we’re very proud of what he did, it was a great job. That’s what we do every Armistice Sunday. We’ve done, how many? Huge number. A very big number anyway of these, for years and years and years.
AR: And you still keep in touch with - ?
AEJ: It was the seventieth we stopped at, no that was something else wasn’t it?
JEJ: Yes.
AR: And you’ve kept in touch until recently with your old colleagues from the war?
AEJ: I suppose I haven’t really. I’ve lost contact now.
AR: Alan can you tell me about going up to see the memorial and how you feel about Bomber Command being recognised now?
AEJ: Oh very thrilled, very thrilled, yes. Of course we had a lot of fighter boys here and they turned the tables really at that vital moment, but all the boys at St Athans were in fact killed. Every one that we knew, we knew well. My sister was a very attractive girl, and very vivacious, and she had a circle of friends wherever we went and she knew a lot of the pilots. We used to go and stay locally at Porthcawl at the Seabank Hotel and a lot of the pilots from Battle of Britain were there and they all died, sadly. But I think I’m wrong about not having any contact with my crew but my memory, it’s been shot to pieces. [pause] Nobby, Wilf, Geoff Taverner, yes. My bombing leader, Geoff Taverner, he lives in Newport so although we didn’t fly together, he was the bombing leader for my 51 Squadron and I see him quite regularly. He got the DFC actually. And I, incidentally, have just been awarded the medal Chevalier de la Legion D’honneur because quite a lot of my trips were in support of the French and a friend of mine over there, [unclear] Thomas, he said ‘you really ought to apply for the Chevalier Award because I’m sure, knowing your record that you would qualify’. And I did and I was. And Geoff as well, Geoff Taverner. We had a very moving occasion in Cardiff for that. It was rather lovely and the family were able to be there and it was fantastic really.
AR: Congratulations, that’s wonderful.
AEJ: It’s a nice title to have. It’s a wonderful medal, very, very handsome.
AR: That’s lovely to hear. So after the war Alun, life continued and you were working in Cardiff?
AEJ: That’s right and then I got to feel that, it was pure chance really. I wanted to help the people. Because there was a tendency to have a drink problem in my family, on my mother’s side, one of my uncles had a problem and my sister and I both inherited it. And I thought, when I heard about this job, an organisation was being formed in Cardiff, the Council on Alcoholism, if I could get in on that I would be able to help others as well as myself. I applied. My sister, however continued to drink although she was married and she had two children and a loyal husband and she didn’t mean to do these things but she couldn’t stop, you know. She was wonderfully talented, a very gifted and bright girl who drove cars at great speed. She was a tremendous character but she couldn’t quite come to terms with this and I was worried about her and it was because of her, as much as anything, that I thought if I join, if I get in on this job, I’ll learn enough to help her properly and she died the very day I was appointed. But I was appointed, and having put my shoulder to the wheel, as it were, I thought that’s what I’ll continue to do and it became my life’s work. I built up a hostel for people with the problem in Cardiff, Dyfrig House and then moved on and did Emlyn House in Newport. And then we moved on, out into the nearby valleys and did a third one, the Brynnal [?] and then my daughters, two of my four daughters, decided that this was for them so they came in, Rhoda and Lucy and played their very significant role and Lucy became the Director of the Gwent Alcohol Project and Rhoda was in charge of the Community Alcohol and Drugs Team and so we made it a family business [laughter] .
AR: That’s wonderful.
AEJ: I think over the years we were able to help quite a lot of people. The hostel in Cardiff for example, Dyfrig House, we had a Day Centre and a workshop, we had crafts that people could make and all sorts of things as well as having accommodation and support, so there was a lot happening.
AR: Wonderful. Is there anything else Alun you can remember about your - going back to the RAF, your time in Bomber Command, anything else you would like to tell us about what it was like to fly on the Halifaxes?
AEJ: Well I liked the Halifax. The Halifax of course was overshadowed a bit by the Lancaster, in the same way really as the Spitfire outshone the Hurricane. The Hurricane did a very fine job nevertheless and the same applied to the Halifax. It was eclipsed by the glamour of the Lancaster. But I liked it, on a practical basis it had much more room inside so you could move around more easily. Also, which I think is a very important point, it was easier to bail out of [laughter] . It was a good sturdy workhorse and I got very fond of it yes. It just didn’t get the glamour and people always think of Lancasters, they don’t think of Halifaxes. Of course before that, there was the Stirling, after the two-engined ones. I didn’t fly in those, I think I got one trip once but not an operational trip and of course before that we were on Whitleys. We were flying Whitleys. Yes I liked the Halifax very much indeed. I enjoyed flying actually. I mean compared with my friends who are in civilian airlines who drew thousands and thousands and thousands of hours, the whole war I think my total was seven hundred and fifty but seven hundred and fifty hours we packed a lot of stuff into it. I find it such a privilege really to work with crews like that. We became great friends, that’s the thing, it wasn’t just that we were working together, we became great friends. You know we went out together as well and met socially when we could. Oh it was tremendous comradeship. I deem myself very fortunate indeed to have had that opportunity and of course to have survived because the expectation of life was only six weeks, and so to have survived was extraordinary good fortune. We were losing boys all the time. You know, ‘so and so bought it’ that was the expression, ‘so and so bought it’ so you know one of the people we knew well hadn’t come back, they had crashed or been shot down. I mean on one daylight (sortie) I remember seeing lots of aircraft going down. Later, this particular man, lives in Cardiff so I see him quite often because I’ve got a group called 51 Squadron and Friends. The group meets quite regularly and I saw this aircraft just below me, being shot down and it turned out to be his so I was able to tell him I’d actually seen him shot down. He was then captured by the Germans but they treated him with respect. Another of my friends who was shot down in the First War was put into Pfaffenwald which was dreadful and he had a dreadful time there but then the Luftwaffe itself said ‘you shouldn’t have this man there, he should be in a proper prison, so he was transferred, that surely saved his life although he died young in the end, but that was a separate matter. But er, yes there was great comradeship. I’ve rambled on enough I think.
AR: Not at all, it’s been fascinating.
AEJ: Thank you so much.
AR: No thank you, thank you Alun very much for giving us the time.
AEJ: It’s was my pleasure. I just wonder how many things I’ve missed out.
AR: Alun we’re going to carry on now. Can you tell me a little bit about your nickname?
AEJ: Actually of course so many of my compatriots from Wales were called Taffy and I suppose I would have been but in fact Grem fitted in very well and I got called Grem all the way through my Air Force career. That’s because it’s short for Gremlin and Gremlin was the little creature who used to disturb our instruments in the aircraft, imaginary one I need hardly say [laughter] . It was short for that and it also rhymes with my name Emlyn, Alun Emlyn. So for those two reasons I got called Grem and enjoyed that nickname and I’m still called Grem by some people. Geoff Taverner my colleague and one time bombing leader from Newport, he still calls me Grem for example, so it’s very nice to have that.
AR: And animals played an important part for you.
AEJ: Yes, well when we were stationed at one place I picked up a goat, a little goat. He was a dear little thing and he used to live in my billet and used to greet me with licking my face at night and things like that but then he got bigger and bigger and bigger and I had to think of something to do with him so we asked a local farmer if he, no we didn’t, we found a spot at a water tower in the village and he would have shelter and he was on a long lead and we had him there for quite a while and then one time he got away from his lead and went all round the village eating the tops off people’s plants. That became rather unpopular so I gave him to the local farmer on the strict [emphasis] understanding he would be used for breeding and not be killed. So I hope that’s what happened, I hope he had a happy life. Then we had our dog, Jimmy, I picked Jimmy up somehow and Jimmy sort of lived constantly with us and was a great guy. I can’t remember what happened to Jimmy in the end.
AR: Did Jimmy wait for you when you came back from - ?
AEJ: Yes Jimmy used to be there. Wherever we’d been and wherever he’d been in the meantime , he was always waiting on the tarmac when we got back and he lived in my billet with me. So we had a bit of a menagerie really. I can’t remember what happened to Jimmy, pity we can’t ask [laughter]. So there we are and of course when we searched for the spot to put the memorial for the first crew at Garrowby Hill, a lot of research went into that. We had a local archivist, he worked very hard at it all. We met a girl, a woman then, as a girl she’d been stationed in that area where the crash took place and through personal contact we were able to be sure [emphasis] that where we put the memorial was exactly where the crash took place, so that was very helpful. But the trouble is Anne now, for me is that my memory is shot to pieces and I can’t remember clearly. I can’t , even though a few moments ago I had it clearly in my mind I can’t remember everything that I was told unless I wrote it down.
AR: Thank you Alun, what you’ve been able to tell us has been marvellous.
AEJ: Well you’ve been very kind and I’ve know it’s not been adequate.
AR: It’s been wonderful and it will be a great addition to the archive. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alun Emlyn-Jones
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anne Roberts
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-12
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AEmlynJonesA161012, PEmlynJonesA1601
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Format
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00:34:11 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Alun Emlyn-Jones (known as Grem among his RAF colleagues) was raised in Cardiff and attended boarding schools in Oxfordshire. He worked manufacturing office supplies when he volunteered to serve in Bomber Command, hoping to avoid being called up to the infantry. Alun trained in Penarth and in East London, South Africa, and then worked as a bomb aimer.
Alun talks of flying on the Anson and Whitley, and of being assigned to a Halifax crew. He describes a training flight accident at Garrowby Hill, Yorkshire in which his crewmates were killed. Alun, who was hospitalised at the time, was not on board the aircraft. He recalls his loneliness at being without a crew, and the unexplained animosity towards him from a senior officer. He talks of joining another aircrew and of adaptability being a part of the role of the bomb aimer, before reflecting on his feelings about the unjust dismissal of the crew’s pilot for lack of moral fibre.
Alun recalls his transfer to RAF Transport Command in 1945 and talks of organising the erection of a memorial to his crew at Garrowby Hill. He mentions his pride at the memorial, and his attendance at annual commemorations there for many years. He goes on to reflect on his preference for the Halifax over other aircraft, his enjoyment of flying, and on the great friendship and comradeship among aircrews, describing a closeness which continued after the war. He also mentions his affection for the animals that he kept in his billet during the war.
Alun relates that he first returned to his pre-war job after the war, but later joined the Welsh Council on Alcoholism to help others and in support of his sister, whom he describes affectionately.
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1955
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Leah Warriner-Wood
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
Wales
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Wales--Porthcawl
Wales--Newport
South Africa
South Africa--East London
Germany
Germany--Nuremberg
Japan
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Penarth
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
51 Squadron
aircrew
animal
Anson
bale out
bomb aimer
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
gremlin
Halifax
Hurricane
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
memorial
military ethos
military service conditions
pilot
radar
RAF Rufforth
RAF St Athan
Spitfire
Stirling
training
Whitley
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/563/8831/AEdwardsAE161024.1.mp3
6f8f321cbb73cb59b14fc9ac1cbe74a6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Edwards, Allan Ernest
A E Edwards
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Edwards, AE
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Collection concerns Warrant Officer Ernest Allan Edwards (b. 1924, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 514, 7 and 582 Squadrons. Collection contains an oral history interview, biography, list of 42 operations and photographs of aircraft and people.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ernest Allan Edwards and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
IP: This is Ian Price and I’m interviewing Allan Edwards today, the twenty-fourth of October 2016, for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive.
AE: 2016.
IP: Correct, yes, that’s this year.
AE: Er –
IP: We are, we are at Allan’s home in East Boldon, Tyne and Wear. Thank you, Allan for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present is Judith Higerty, Allan’s daughter. It is ten past eleven.
AE: Mhm.
IP: Allan, as I say, thank you for allowing me to come and talk to you. Just to start off, could you tell me what you recall about your life growing up and where you grew up, and what you did before the war really?
AE: As far as I can remember, I was born in Southwick in Sunderland, and then I worked at chartered accountants, Davidson and Gurrey for a while, and then worked at Vaux’s in nineteen, before I went into the Air Force. And then I went in the Air Force in [pause] December 1942, and er, I went to Blackpool to do eight weeks physical training, and then round about February or March 1943, went to Davidson and Gurrey, just for a while, and then went to Vaux’s April 1940, first of April 1940, as a clerk, and then in December or November, Decem, November, December 1942 went in the Air Force.
IP: Okay, so where did you go to school then, before, this is before you joined the Air Force obviously. I guess it would be the 1930s, something like that. Where were you at school?
AE: [Laughs]
IP: Do you recall?
AE: Erm [pause], I think it was at the local school which is in Sea Road –
IP: Local to here, or to – local to here, okay.
AE: Sea Road [unclear]. I went in there and then I went to [pause] the mid-school in Southwick, in Southwick. But I can’t remember much about it, I can’t, it’s way back.
IP: Okay, no that’s fine, and can you tell me a little about your parents? What, do you remember what your parents, or what your father did for work? Was he, was he in the First World War, do you remember as well?
AE: He was in the First World War, yeah, yeah, and I think he was an ironmonger, an ironmonger and he used to have a shop in [unclear] Avenue. That’s as far as I can remember.
IP: Okay, so what caused you then to join the Royal Air Force? What, why did join the Royal Air Force and what made you go into Bomber Command?
AE: Well, before I went in the Air Force, I was in the ATC, ATC, and I always used to fly model aeroplanes, so it was just a case of being able to fly in Air Force aircraft, and that’s why I went in the ATC, and then from there I went in the Air Force, in December 1942.
IP: And what made you go into Bomber Command, ‘cause the bomber boys were volunteers as I understand it, is that correct?
AE: I’ve no idea [laughs].
IP: Oh okay.
AE: I don’t know, I don’t, I can’t remember now. But, as a matter of fact, I just went as a flight engineer in Bomber Command, but why I went into it, I’ve no idea.
IP: Okay.
AE: Can’t remember now.
IP: Alright, not to worry. So, you talked a little bit about your training, the physical training at Blackpool. Can you tell me anymore about the training that you got before you became operational?
AE: Erm [pause], I can’t bloody remember about it now, but I know I was in Blackpool for a few months, and did physical training, and, but I can’t remember much about it.
IP: Okay.
AE: I cannot, no, no.
IP: And then after Blackpool, where did you go from there?
AE: Erm, I’m trying to think [long pause]. I can’t bloody remember [laughs].
IP: Okay, but you mentioned to me about, something about St Athan. Were you at St Athan at some stage?
AE: Oh, St Athan. That’s right, in Blackpool, I went down to St Athan, ah yeah. I must have gone there at the beginning of 1943, and I was there for about eight months altogether, and doing the training on the flight engineer’s training, and physical training as well until about October 1943, and then I went to, I think Davidson and Gurrey, no I beg your pardon, no, no, no, no. In October 1943 must have gone to [pause], I just cannot remember.
IP: Did you go to a conversion unit to learn to fly the Lancaster, was that, was that what happened next? Or to fly in the Lancaster I should say.
AE: Possibly. It’ll be in my 1943, 1944 diaries.
IP: Okay.
AE: But otherwise, I just can’t bloody remember.
IP: Okay. Can you remember arriving on your first squadron?
AE: On my first squadron?
IP: Yes, the first squadron you were posted to, to fly operations. Can you remember that?
AE: In Waterbeach.
IP: Can you tell me much about that?
AE: That was in January 1944. I can’t remember much about it, but I know that, the first trip I did was Brunswick, Brunswick, but I can’t remember much about it. I was the flight engineer then, but I honestly cannot remember then. Brunswick and then next week I did Magdeburg, Berlin, Augsburg, Stuttgart, all at Waterbeach, Waterbeach, and then I went to [pause], then I went to, is it Pathfinder, to Little Staughton.
IP: Mm.
AE: Round about March nineteen, April 1944, yeah, yeah. And then from then when I did all my flying, as a Pathfinder, in the Lancasters, until I finished the tour in September 1944, way back.
IP: What happened in September 1944 then, where did you go after that?
AE: I think in September ‘44 I had shingles, shingles, and I went into hospital for a, three weeks, then I had a fortnight’s leave, then I came back and did a bit more, did a bit more time at Waterbeach, no Little Staughton, Little Staughton, Little Staughton, and eventually I went on to Milfield in Wooler, or near Wooler, at the beginning of 1945, beginning of 1945. That right?
JH: Yes, that’s right.
AE: You’ve got a bloody good memory, have I told you before?
JH: A little bit yeah.
AE: Ey?
JH: A little bit, yes.
AE: [Laughs.]
IP: So, can you tell me what happened at Milfield then? What was going on there? What were you doing at Milfield?
AE: I think I went there as [pause] some sort of, erm – I know, I know for three weeks I worked in the ordering department, and then I got fed up, and I went as a drone operator in the Martinets and I flew in the Martinets from [pause] March 1945, until end of 1945, as a drone operator [laughs].
IP: And then what did you do after that? What was the next job, can you remember?
AE: And then I went up to Llanbedr in, that’s in North Wales, and I flew in, what do they call them, Vengeances, Vengeances, and then I got brassed off, I think I was married then, and I just became an airfield controller, until the end of 1946, then I was demobbed, and –
IP: Okay.
AE: And started work again at Vaux’s in 1947.
IP: Okay, so going back to your time on the squadrons, can you sort of describe a typical mission to me? What, what went on in the preparation and the mission itself? Can you remember that sort of thing?
AE: Not much, I can’t remember much [pause]. No, that’s all, on a mission to the, to Germany?
IP: Yes, yes.
AE: Haven’t got a clue.
IP: Okay.
AE: I can’t remember now [laughs].
IP: You’d be told, as I understand it, you would be told in the morning where you were, where the mission was going to be –
AE: Erm –
IP: Towards, so if it was Stuttgart for example, or Brunswick or something like that?
AE: In the morning we were told that, we were told to attend a meeting in the afternoon, and where, and we were told then where the target was, and who would do the bombing, and then in the evening, we would takeoff and do the actual flying, but you’re bringing back a few memories.
IP: Good memories or bad memories?
AE: Oh, oh good memories [laughs].
IP: Okay, would you like to tell me about some of them?
AE: Haven’t got a clue.
IP: Okay.
AE: No, no. No, I can’t remember much about them.
IP: Can you tell me how you found it yourself when you were flying over the cities? Because obviously, there were searchlights and flak and all that sort of stuff, and how, how did that, how did you deal with that as a person, how did you cope?
AE: I think at the time, I was quite frightened, and I certainly couldn’t do it now, because when you’re older, you’re terrified all the bloody time. But any, flying over Germany and what have you, through the flak and what, and the searchlights, you just accept it, accept it, and fly onwards, and do your job as good, as much as possible.
IP: Were the people that went on to Pathfinders hand, were they picked particularly? ‘Cause in my mind, that was, the Pathfinder Force was a particular responsibility, so I don’t know if they take – were they, did they take the best crews from the main force to go onto the Pathfinders, or was it just a normal posting?
AE: I think it was a normal posting, I think so.
IP: Hmm –
AE: [Laughs].
IP: Okay.
AE: I don’t think we were very, very good at, when we were at, it’s Waterbeach, just normal.
IP: Okay.
AE: So, we were sent to Little Staughton as Pathfinders, just because we were, we did five trips. That’s it, we were experienced.
IP: So had you only done five trips at Waterbeach then, before you went to –
AE: Five trips at Waterbeach
IP: Yeah, yeah.
AE: Uh-huh.
IP: Oh goodness.
AE: Er, and then [laughs] went to Little Staughton and did the rest of my tour.
IP: What sort of training did you have to be on the Pathfinders then? Was there additional training?
AE: There was additional training [pause], I think we just used to fly in the Lancasters, and do additional training on target indicating, Pathfinders, just to indicate the target as far as I can remember, but you’re going back a few years, and I just cannot bloody remember [laughs].
IP: That’s right. Is there, is there any particular mission that stands out in your mind? I mean, I know you went to Berlin which would be a, something you wouldn’t forget perhaps, but is there a particular mission that stands out in your mind because something particular happened that might be of interest?
AE: I think the [pause], the mission on, it was in July 1944 when we went to Verrières, Verrières, which I think is just east of Paris, and I think we got clobbered on the way there, and the plane was holed and I think the engines were running roughly, but we went onto the target, dropped the bombs and came back, and that was Verrières in July 1944, and that was the worst aerial bombardment, aerial which we’d had.
IP: So, because you flew towards the end of the war, the bomber force was also flying daylight missions as opposed to night missions. Did you fly daylight missions, and how did you, how different did you find that, to flying at night?
AE: We used to fly daylight missions just to France. That was when the flying bombs were coming over from France to South England, and we used to fly the bomb, we used to attack the bomb, the flying bombsites [laughs]. That was in 1944, and as I say, I used to fly 1944 until September 1944, used to do the daylight missions just on the flying, on the coast of France, and then as far as, I think we went to Paris, Verrières, aye, but didn’t do many night flights [pause] later in the, aye. Although I think I went to Szczecin, Szczecin –
IP: Oh yeah?
AE: Took about nine hours, but that was in August 1944, wasn’t it?
JH: Was that your longest flight?
AE: Szczecin, yeah.
JH: Was that your longest flight?
AE: I think so, took about nine hours. Nine hours and a bit [laughs].
IP: Did you find it stressful?
AE: In those days yes. I wouldn’t be able to do it now, be terrified now [laughs], but I did find it stressful, yes, that’s why I got the shingles at the end of my tour in September and October 1944.
IP: And how did you cope with the stress then, how, as a crew, did you socialise together and that sort of thing or, just to let your hair down a bit as we’d say?
AE: Used to accept it, accept it, yeah. I think most of the crews were quite frightened when they were flying, but they used to, no, act normally afterwards, mhm, yeah.
IP: So, before we move on, I was just wondering, I don’t want to go away from the war too early, you might want to I don’t know but, is there anything, anything else that you can remember about your wartime experience that you think is worth telling us about?
AE: I cannot honestly remember [laughs].
IP: You mentioned – did you get married during the war? You mentioned that you thought you were married –
AE: Oh, God –
IP: Some stage. Where did you meet your wife?
AE: I think she was a WAAF. Is that so?
JH: I don’t know.
AE: Erm, but that was the first time I was married, oh god. I think I met her in 1945, at the end of 1945 when I was at Milfield, and that only lasted about four years [laughs]. Be quiet.
IP: Okay.
AE: Shut up [laughs].
IP: So, you were demobbed in 1946. What, just tell us how your life has gone in general terms since then. You went back to work at Vaux Brewery I understand in –
AE: Vaux Brewery, yes.
IP: In 1947.
AE: Uh-huh.
IP: And then what have you done since then?
AE: Er, at Vaux, I worked Vaux Brewery until, oh [pause] can’t remember, then I went to the British Oxygen Company in Chester-Le-Street for a while, and I started working at Cycle, Cycle.
IP: What do they do?
AE: Erm, they used to supply, Cycle. I can’t remember now. Used to supply lots and lots of goods to local shops, and I think I worked there for about twenty-five years, and that was my last occupation, Cycle.
IP: When –
AE: And I became a clerk and I studied, did a bit of studying and became a chartered secretary as well. Mhm. That was, oh [sigh], way back, 1955, ‘56. Chartered secretary [laughs]. I honestly can’t remember much about it now.
IP: That’s alright, don’t worry about it.
AE: [Laughs].
IP: Now, when the war ended, one of the things that happened was Bomber Command was, people were – I think the best way of describing it was embarrassed by what had happened with the bomber offensive. How did you, how do you find people treated you if they knew you’d been in Bomber Command? Was, did you find, did you have any difficulties?
AE: In Bomber Command – at the end of the war I was at Milfield, and I think at the end of the war everyone was granted about a week’s leave, and I came home and that’s it.
IP: But how were you treated by – when you left the Air Force, how were you treated by people, how did you find people back home? How did they, how did they –
AE: No –
IP: Treat you?
AE: Just the same as when I first went there. Just the same.
IP: What did you think to the way Bomber Command was treated after the war? Do you have a view on that at all?
AE: Way Bomber Command was treated after the war? Just accept it, accept it, but otherwise [sighs], I don’t know.
IP: Okay.
AE: [Laughs].
IP: Okay. Erm, right, so what, were Martinets training aircraft then?
AE: The Martinets were two seaters, they were a development of the Masters, the Miles Master, but the Martinets were designed to tow targets, tow targets, Martinets.
IP: So, what were you towing targets for, was it –
AE: For the benefit of –
IP: Air-to-air firing or –
AE: For the benefit of [pause], of trainee pilots in Typhoons and Tempests, and used to fly over the Holy Island and the Farne Islands, and they used to fire at the, the drogues which were flying, I forget, twelve-hundred feet away from the Martinets, and they used to fly at the drogue, the drogue [laughs].
IP: Did that get at all exciting? Were they good shots or was it a bit dicey at times?
AE: I think they used to attack the drogues all the time, all the time. Mind you, they used to miss them, but when the drogues were dropped at Milfield, the number of holes were counted, and also there were different colours as well. One was blue and red, and then there was naughtered down, and that’s it.
IP: Okay, when you – one thing I was thinking about, when you left the Air Force, how easy did it, you find it to adjust? I mean it’s quite, being in Bomber Command particularly, it’s quite an intensive way to live your life, and then to go back to pretty much your old job –
AE: Vaux’s.
IP: At Vaux’s Brewery, how, how was that adjustment, can you remember?
AE: Quite easy [laughs]. Quite easy, that’s way back in 1940.
IP: So, you just took your uniform off one day and put your suit on another day and carried on?
AE: I think I’ve still got the uniform here.
IP: Wow.
AE: I’ve still got the medals as well, aye, yeah. Although, have you got the uniform?
JH: I think Michael’s got it.
AE: Michael’s got it, ah yeah. But I’ve still got the medals in the box there. Ah [sighs] way back.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Allan Ernest Edwards
Creator
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Ian Price
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AEdwardsAE161024
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:30:01 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Allan joined the Royal Air Force in December 1942 as a flight engineer, having been a member of the Air Training Corps before the war. From Blackpool, he went to RAF St Athan for flight engineer training. His first squadron was at RAF Waterbeach, where he went on operations to Brunswick, Magdeburg, Berlin, Augsburg and Stuttgart. Allan then went to RAF Little Staughton to fly as a Pathfinder in Lancasters. He describes a tricky mission to Versailles in France. RAF Milfield followed in early 1945 where Alan was a drogue operator in Martinets. He then flew in Vengeances at RAF Llandbedr, subsequently becoming an airfield controller until he was demobbed.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Northumberland
Wales
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Braunschweig
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Stuttgart
France
France--Versailles
Germany
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
207 Squadron
aircrew
coping mechanism
flight engineer
Martinet
Pathfinders
RAF Little Staughton
RAF St Athan
RAF Waterbeach
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/16/6136/AAtkinsonA150623.2.mp3
194d2829b0981bb39f112129e533bbe5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Atkinson, Arthur
Arthur Atkinson
A Atkinson
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Arthur Atkinson (1922 - 2020, 1042303 Royal Air Force) his log book, service material and two photographs. Arthur Atkinson trained as a wireless operator and spent eighteen months at RAF Ringway before being flying 34 operations with 61 Squadron from RAF Coningsby and RAF Skellingthorpe.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Atkinson and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Atkinson, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: Ok so If you tell us about when and where you were born, and then go on from there.
AA: Yeah, I was born in Lancaster in Lancashire in 1922, went to a normal school, elementary school then I won a scholarship to the local Grammar school but , we didn’t have a lot of money so I wasn’t able to take up the scholarship so I carried on schooling at the elementary as long as I could and then when I left school, the Headmaster, I was head boy in the school by the time I left, and the headmaster got me a job at the local accountant, which was fine but in those days five shillings didn’t go a long way. So, in no time at all I had to leave there and got a job with the local coop behind the counter which I hated, I hated it from the first day and I decided then and there as soon as I was old enough I would join the RAF. That was my ambition I’d had one flight in an Avro 504 the open cockpit type with a local chap that came and that set me off I volunteered for the Royal Air Force as wireless operator, I always wanted to be a wireless operator and got my number at pad Gate I was accepted I got my number but unfortunately, they sent me home for deferred service which didn’t suit me at all. I was home for about six months and at the end of six months I was so fed up I wrote a letter to the Air ministry, saying “have you forgotten me?” and a week later my papers came. Then I reported to Blackpool to the initial training wing and wireless school, did my wireless training over Woolworth’s in Blackpool and then down to Compton Bassett to finish off with and when I qualified as a wireless operator I was posted to Ringway airport Manchester which then was RAF Ringway doing ground wireless operating duties there for about eighteen months until I was put under draft to go overseas as a ground wireless operator. Well a friend of mine on the same draft said “this isn’t good enough”, we were both waiting for aircrew training by then, so I went on embarkation leave, he went to see the CO and said “look you know this isn’t playing the game” so the CO agreed with him, and when I came back from leave embarkation leave found I’d been taken off the draft, and in a short while I was posted down to Yatesbury on a refresher course then went through the usual mill of flying training at Yatesbury.
MC: What sort of aircraft were you flying in?
AA: Proctor’s, little Proctor’s, Dominie, to start with then little Proctor’s then I did an EFU at Boddington near to Ha’penny Green then gunnery course down at Stormy Down in Wales. Then I finally qualified at the Operational training unit at Market Harborough and was crewed up by self-selection, I saw a pilot walking along and I liked the look of him and asked him if he wanted a wireless operator and did, he had a Bomb aimer, asked me if I knew any gunners which I did, and eventually we crewed up. Went through the training and finally posted to Coningsby 61 squadron.
MC: Who was your skipper and crew then?
AA: Bob Acott, Basil. M. Acott but we called him Bob. The only thing was that we hadn’t had leave for ages and they said you can’t go on leave until you’ve done at least one operation with the squadron but unfortunately before we went on Ops we had to a couple of cross countries and unfortunately our navigator suffered from airsickness and every time we took off he was ill so this delayed us somewhat and we were not very happy about it anyway eventually they swapped him for another navigator Dickie Ward he was a good lad, and we were put on the list to go to Stuttgart our first op. This was a disaster completely from start to finish. We took off, we hadn’t been flying long and it was fairly obvious our DR compass wasn’t working properly, anyway we pressed on and it was our first trip it was a press on type anyway after hours and hours it seemed to me we didn’t find Stuttgart we found a glowing under a cloud, a red glow in some clouds and thought this must be it so we unloaded the bombs there which was, whether it was Stuttgart or not I don’t know any way we tried to, we left the bombing area tried to fly back to the UK still wondering all over the place with this DR compass which wasn’t working properly we hadn’t flown long before bomb aimer checked the bombays and found a thousand pound bomb had been hung up so we opened the doors and we let that go I don’t know who got it but we were over Germany so it didn’t really matter a lot, we carried on flying wandering all over Europe I should think and after ages and ages the rear gunner said he thought he saw the coastline underneath, well that’s great so approximate course to England we kept flying and flying and nothing happened and a bit later on he spoke up and said “I’m sorry skipper, I was wrong the first time I can clearly see the coast below now” so then the skipper said, “well that’s alright but I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel to get across the Channel now” so he said “I’ll tell you what…” he got on to all of the crew and he said “we've got to make a decision, you can either bail out, in which case you would be prisoners of war, or we can try cross, get across the channel and if necessary we will have to ditch, what do you want to do?” universal decision we'll try and get across the channel so off we went over ten tenths cloud we flew on and we flew on but nothing was happening then suddenly through a break in the clouds we saw a beacon flashing now I couldn’t establish where it was, and all this time I’d been trying to get my radio set to work to find out where we were unfortunately every time I wound out my trailing aerial it was shorting out and I couldn’t get any power on the transmitter and very little on the receiver. So anyway we got to this beacon and the skipper flew round and round it and said “we’ve got another decision to make” the first decision wasn’t a good one but anyway we had found this beacon and we flew round it and he said “the only thing is, if it’s a land marker you can bail out but if it’s a sea marker you’ll drown, on the other hand if I decide to ditch the aircraft thinking it’s a sea marker, and it’s a land marker there’s going to be one hell of a bang” so anyway flying around this beacon trying to make our minds up suddenly an airfield lit up beneath us and there it was full runways, perimeter the lot marvellous we’ll land there so we went round to land wheels down, wheels wouldn’t come down, bomb aimer tried the flaps, the flaps wouldn’t work so we overshot. We came round again and this time we blew the wheels down with a compressed air tank that was behind my head in the wireless compartment and they fortunately came down and locked and with the flight engineer pumping like mad on the flaps he managed to hit the ground and roll along Well I went to the back of the aircraft open the door and I saw a chap on a bicycle with a blue torch and I said “aye mate where’s this then?” and he said “Westonzoyland “, I thought what the hell we have landed in Holland it sounded Dutch to me “Westonzoyland!” I said, “where’s that?”, he said “Somerset”. So, there we were got some sort of transport went to the Flying control tower saw the chap that had put the lights on and he said, “the first time you went and you didn’t land, I put my hand out to switch off the lights off again but I thought I’d give them one more chance”. It’s a good job he did, so we thanked, we ran to and thanked the beacon crew because I had been firing red, red greens the pilot had been saying ‘hello darkie this is spot null tear calling darkie’. Flashing the nose light SOS doing all sorts while we circle this beacon, when we went to the flying control we saw a Warrant officer in charge of the signal flight who’d been to the mess for a couple of mugs of tea for him and the WAAF that was working on the radio set, as he came through the door with the two mugs of tea, there was the WAAF under the bench unconscious; the same thing had happened about a fortnight before and an aircraft had called up in distress and then they hadn’t been able to contact it, gone across the Bristol channel crashed into the Welsh mountains , now she thought she was listening to a ghost when she heard us so she passed out under the bench so she was a lot of help. But anyway, it all worked out very nicely, but we had to stay down there for three days while they flew ground crews down from Coningsby to fix the aircraft everything was wrong with it, took them three days to fix it then we went back to Coningsby and then we went on leave. Now in some ways Harry our navigator, this sick navigator saved our lives because while we were on leave they did the Nuremberg raid and the Berlin raid and lost 95 aircraft as you know, so that was very fortunate. After that we carried on and did another thirty three ops, I think it was and then we finally finished our tour of ops, I was posted down to 17 OTU Silverstone as an instructor and stayed there until I was de-mobbed in 1946.
MC: So, you did thirty four ops, more than normal?
AA: Yes, but that was because some bright spark decided that French targets it’s easier than German targets so you had to do three French targets to count as one operation. That’s why it’s got the thirty three, thirty four.
MC: So, you did a few daylight raids?
AA: Yeah, we did about three daylight raids I think but I didn’t believe this business about being easier, because one night my crew, were stood down and the wireless operator in S-sugar was sick so I was told to fly with them. Pilot officer Hallet In S-Sugar so we took off, well after the briefing I was quite pleased in a way that I’d been put with this crew, because it was ten minutes over France flying bomb sites but this was a doddle so off we went got to this flying bomb site just across the channel no flack just lots and lots of searchlights and fighters circling round the outside waiting for us and as we went into bomb they were attacking us three at a time, I have never corkscrewed so hard in my life as I did with Hallet. But anyway, before we had taken off on the ops I was talking to a couple of chaps and the crew wasn’t with me, I was talking to two wireless operators , well three actually Kemish, Donahue, Sutton there was four of us talking and when I came back from the ten minutes over France, Kemish and Donoghue were no longer there, I think there was twenty two aircraft lost on that ten minutes and two were from our squadron and both of them wireless operators, I was chatting to them before we took off, so that was that anyway apart from the normal flying after that there wasn’t a great lot to talk about . I remember one occasion when I was working on the set, suddenly there was a brilliant white flash and I wondered what the hell it was it was like daylight in the cockpit I jumped up on the step stuck my head out the astrodome just in time to see a wing sailing past with two engines on it, and the propellers going round. An aircraft had blown up just in front of us, and the skipper pulling back on the stick trying to miss it so we didn’t hit the damn thing, anyway apart from that I think the rest of their trips were fairly quiet .
MC: So, were most of these daytime raids were following the invasion?
AA: That’s right, yeah, I can show you if you like?
MC: So, this is your logbook?
AA: Yeah.
MC: Its very neat!
AA: Yeah, there’s not a lot in it, I think about eight German targets, and the rest were French but as I said they weren’t as easy as they said they were and eventually of course they rescinded that.
MC: So most of them were fairly uneventful, apart from the ones you told me about?
AA: That's right. Yeah.
MC: So, following the operations you did where did you go then …. what did you do then following when you finished your ops?
AA: Well as I said I went down to 17 OTU at Silverstone and was there until I was demobbed in 46.
MC: Yeah, so your first flight obviously was err….
AA: Traumatic!
MC: Traumatic to say the least even though you didn’t meet any enemy action, during your other operations did you come across any other…you must have come across flack?
AA: Well we saw the flack, it didn’t bother me much it was quite interesting in daylight black puffs it looked very harmless you know it didn’t look dangerous at all. That was my air force career yeah.
MC: So, what happened, so then you did, you did your 19 RFS?
AA: After the war I joined the RAF volunteer reserve because I still couldn’t get the RAF feeling that I liked, I loved being in the RAF to be honest so I joined the RAFVR and used to go down at weekends first to Liverpool, at Liverpool and then we were over at Oulton Park the other side of Birkenhead then finished up at Woodvale, Southport flying at weekends then back to work as a civilian on Monday morning, a fortnights camping every year and that was great until it finally packed up in about 1952 I think round about then. So, then I joined Blackpool Gliding club and got a glider pilots licence just to keep flying and then when that packed up the next flying I did was on the back of my son’s microlight. We bought a microlight aircraft between us, he got the pilot’s licence and I just sat in the back flying around Coningsby, again. When the squadron moved across from Coningsby back from Skellingthorpe we were detailed to fly the aircraft but lot of stuff came by road when we landed we were given a dispersal for the aircraft I left my flying boots at the back near the Elsan and when we had lunch and came back to the aircraft my boots had gone so somebody helped himself, I went to the stores to see if I could get a spare pair and he said “What! I can’t let you have any more flying boots what if you don’t come back from an op I will be one pair of boots short”, which I didn’t like the attitude there so I wouldn’t buy them, he said I could get them on the 664b and I could pay for them, so I thought I’m not damn well paying for them. Just as well id done because when I was demobbed I had to pay for them, six guineas I think.
MC: So, you were demobbed in when? When were you demobbed?
AA: In ‘46’ Whitsontide ?
MC: What did you do after the war then?
AA: I went back to my old job for just six months, oh I’ve got a procession of jobs now and then I went to for work for the Associate of British cinemas as an assistant cinema manager, well a trainee to start with I stuck that for a couple of years and then I left there and went, I was married by then with a son and digs were hard to find so when the area manager came to see me , well first of all I was at Barrow in Furness as assistant cinema manager then I was transferred back to my home town of Lancaster then he came in one day and said “we are transferring you to the Regal Rochdale” and I thought well no you’re not, finding digs was difficult, I packed the job in and went to work for the Shell Oil company down at the Heysham Refinery in the materials office and unfortunately after a while there was a clash of personalities between me and the materials superintendent so I left there, got a job managing a shop in Morecambe seaside town selling pottery, glass wear and fancy goods, and looking out the window I saw all these salesmen coming past in their cars and I thought that looks like a good life much more interesting than this. So, when a chap came in selling me paper, wrapping paper and paper bags and things, or trying to I mentioned to him, and he said, “well come and work for me”, so I did and I stuck that for a couple of years. But I soon found out that being a salesman on the road wasn’t as good as it looked it was hard, hard work you’d have a good week one week and you couldn’t go wrong, the week after you couldn’t sell a thing, no it wasn’t good at all. So, I scanned the local paper and saw a job advertised at the North-west electricity board in the offices so I applied and got the job; in fact, I got two jobs at the same time. One was a job at the what was it…. the aircraft factory Lostock near Bolton I’ve forgotten the name of the aircraft now, well anyway that was one job and I also got the North-west electricity job as well. One would have meant changing home again so I stopped in Lancaster and took the electricity board job and I worked there for eight years until I got bored. I worked first of all on the cash desk as a cashier and then debt collecting and doing all sorts of things. Then I moved into the offices because it looked more in my line in the records office but I then found that I only had three day’s work on a five-day week, so for two days I was scratching around with looking for something to do and I soon got bored with that. So I applied again to the civil service and to NAAFI I saw an advert for NAAFI so the civil service said I could be taken on as a temporary employee it would take some time to become permanent but the NAAFI sent me a railway warrant to come down and see them which I did and of course because I’d worked initially in the Coop as a grocer I knew a little bit about it and then I’d managed the shop in Morecambe as a shop manager they offered me a job as a NAAFI shop manager and I asked could I go to Germany and they said yes we can send you to Germany but your wife will have to stay behind because we can’t accommodate her, I said in that case it’s no good to me, so the chap who was interviewing me said, “well would you be interested in going further afield, in which case your wife could join you ?” I said, “well yes I would” my ears pricked up then and he mentioned North Africa so I thought yes that will do for me, so I signed on there and then went back home, gave my notice in to the electricity board and on the appointed date went down to London, London Airport first day with the NAAFI London Airport flying out to North Africa. So, they sent me fortunately to Casto Benito known as RAF Idris. There was a little family shop there on an RAF station which suited me down to the ground I became an honorary member of the Sergeants mess, and I was in my element there was Air Force all around me but I didn’t have to take any orders because I was civilian and that was fine I was there three year, I had a three year contract I came back to the UK in 1964 , sent me on leave and I stayed on leave and the weeks went by and the months went by and I was still on leave but my salary was being paid into the bank so I wasn’t too concerned . Anyway, suddenly one Friday about four months after I’d being home I got a telegram ‘come down and see us’. So, I went down to see them and apparently two of the officials had been going to lunch and one of them had said “by the way what are you doing with Atkinson?” he said, “well he’s abroad isn’t he?”, “no” he said, “he’s at home on leave.” So that sparked the telegram, when I got down they said would I like to go back to Tripoli again this time to take over the main shop in Tripoli centre which dealt with the Embassy, all the Army, RAF units, any ships coming into Tripoli harbour I dealt with them, so I took the job on and I found it was losing £30 a day was this shop I took over, I didn’t like this so I put measures in to put this right, and in no time at all we were making a profit and this was noted at NAAFI headquarters. So, then it was decided that we would pull out of Tripoli altogether close down, the troops were coming home there were to be no units left in North Africa. So I had to close the shop down and reduce all the stock, close it down came back to the UK went to the headquarters in Peel Court in London for an interview and they said we would like you to attend a board which I did, I didn’t know it at the time but it was a commissioning board for what they called ‘Officials of the Corporation’ because when you became an official you had to be commissioned in the Army as well , on the Army reserve so I thought any how that would do me so I was successfully interviewed particularly with my record of making this shop profitable and they sent me for eighteen months training up and down the country various places, I went down to Plymouth for the ships I went to Scotland for bomb exercise I was all over the place learning about NAAFI official duties and eventually I was qualified and was sent to Anglesey. So, I was on Anglesey for eighteen months and then I got a notification they wanted me to Germany to Bielefeld so I was posted across to Bielefeld for three years.
MC: So, did you have a rank then?
AA: Well the thing is I had a road accident on Anglesey, I stopped my car to post a letter walked across the road and came back and saw a heavy lorry coming towards me so I leaned into the back of my car out of its way and put my foot out and it ran over my foot. Anyway, so when the paper came through with my army commission as a Second Lieutenant in the RASC or logistics core as they call it now, I had to send them back, I said I’m sorry but in view of my injury traversing rough terrain is no good to me because I knew that they sent the district managers on exercise with the Army with the acting rank of Captain in Logistics core, I thought well I can’t wander around hopping about like this to see over NAAFI contingent so as I say I sent the paper back and said I’m sorry that’s it so I didn’t get my commission but I was an honorary Second Lieutenant and when I went to Germany I was given Officers quarters and attended officers Messes and that sort of thing but officially I was a civilian. I did three years in Bielefeld, came back to England posted to Lincolnshire cause my wife came from Boston so this was fine, I spent three years here and then was posted again to Germany to Osnabruck for another three years that was fine I enjoyed that, holidays on the continent down to Italy and all over the place and then came back here again and then in 1982 there was a restructuring programme and all district managers of aged sixty or approaching sixty were dispensed with, but it was a pretty good deal they said that…..I was called down to London most surprised to learn that my service was no longer be required after a certain date when I was sixty in September but that I would get a pension from NAAFI based on the assumption that I reached sixty five which was fair enough so I was retired early at sixty and that was it, and I’ve lived in Lincoln ever since .
MC: I’d just like to go back to your earlier days when you did Air Gunnery training at first didn’t you?
AA: Yes.
MC: Did you, you got your…. so, it was your first brevet?
AA: Yeah that was at Stormy Down.
MC: And you got the Air gunnery brevet.
AA: I did.
MC: And what rank did you get there?
AA: Sergeant.
MC: So, you were Sergeant yeah.
AA: Yeah
MC: So, when you did your Wireless operating training, your brevet changed did it?
AA: Err it was still…. I can’t remember when it changed to be sure, but I know it was changed to an S , Signals but air gunner initially.
MC; That’s brilliant Arthur thank you very much for that. This interview was conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre and the interviewer was Mike Connock and the interviewee was Mr Arthur Atkinson the interview took place at Mr Atkinson’s home in Lincoln on the 23rd June 2015.
AA: Syerston for afternoon tea in Hanson’s and then back to work on a Monday morning.
MC: And this was where?
AA: This was in the volunteer reserve from RAF Woodvale, flying Anson’s. It was great. When I was recalled for my aircraft retraining from RAF Ringway, Manchester I went down at ACRC; Aircrew recruiting centre in London for various things one of them of course was a medical and when we had the medical we found that I had a weak left eye so they said “we will have to get you a pair of special goggles with a lens in the left eye”, fair enough, but unfortunately when my Squad was posted on, the goggle hadn’t come back and I had to wait for them so I was kept back one week when I should have been with my original squad. Then my original squad went on and were posted to India on flying boats.
MC: Oh right.
AA: And because I was kept back a week on a different squad, I finished up on Bomber Command, but if I hadn’t finished up on Bomber Command and being posted to Coningsby I wouldn’t have met my wife. [laughs].
MC: Yes, that’s right.
AA: Because one of the first places I went too was the Gliderdrome in Boston dancing. and met her there, and once we’d met we were together for sixty-three years.
MC: Goodness me.
AA: She died in 2007.
MC: So where did you…you obviously went to Coningsby and from Coningsby you moved on to Skellingthorpe?
AA: Skellingthorpe yeah.
MC: That’s where you did the major part of your tour?
AA: I did all my tour at Skellingthorpe yeah.
MC: All your tour at Skellingthorpe yes!
AA: Yes, all the incidents of interest that I can remember on the ground were at Skellingthorpe, apart from losing my flying boots. We had a mid-upper gunner. He was a Canadian and he used to ride around on a bicycle and he finished up, he got bicycles for the whole crew and we all rode around on bicycles, where he got them from we don’t know but he painted his apple green and I was flying, I was riding down to flights one morning with him got to the MP post and the MP pulled him over and asked him where he got his bike from, apple green, he finished up being court martialled but he said he’d been in a pub in Lincoln, he missed the bus back to camp and somebody offered him a bike so he thought better than walking so he said “I bought the bike and cycled back then I found out next morning it was a service bike but I’d paid good money for it so I painted it apple green” and he stuck to it and got away with it. We all in best blues at the court martial ready to give evidence to say what a good bloke he was, including Bob Acott but they only called Bob and the navigator in and he got away with a severe reprimand but they took him off flying while he was under court martial in case he got killed, they could court martial him if he got killed [laughs] but he was a good lad.
MC: So, the skipper and who, who got the awards you say?
AA: Pilot Bob Acott got the DFC, and Trevor Ward, Ken wrote a book about he got the DFC.
MC: Oh yeah, yeah
AA: Oh dear, we told Ken about the episodes when we one a flew across country to Scotland and our flight engineer Bob, Bill Rudd said to Bob, we were at 20,000 feet on across country one of these two cross countries that were before we went on ops, and Bill Rudd said to Bob “Bob, if you get injured when we’re flying over Germany, you know you’re damaged in any way, who’s going to bring the aircraft back?”. Bob said, “well I haven’t given it a lot of thought really.” He said, ‘Well I think I should!’ He was like that Bill was, so Bob said, “all right fair enough, you can if you like.” He said, “in that case I should have a go at flying it, shouldn’t I?” So, Bob Acott policeman steady said, “you’ve got a good point there.” So, the two of them changed seats at 20,000 feet, then the aircraft stalled it just fell out the sky with the flight engineer in the pilot seat, you know the only left-hand control in a Lanc. Oh god, I clipped my chute on, whether this is what finished the navigator I don’t know, he clipped his chute on, I said “which way are we going out”. I said, “well we can’t go out the front because these two silly buggers are trying to change seats again” [laughs]. Of course, in the back of your mind there’s always that instruction ‘you do not leave the aircraft without the Pilots instruction’ but I thought he’s in no position to instruct anyway, every time they got it in a level keel pushing the stick forward, you know, it stalled again and it kept coming down and we were coming down like a falling leaf. Anyway, they finally changed seats then the flight engineer was running up and down the aircraft finding what had gone wrong, when we found out what had gone wrong it was the trimming tabs on the elevator he’d kicked them as they were changing seats again in, up so that…. Oh dear. And Bill Rudd the same flight engineer he had a chop WAAF, he waved to this WAAF every time he took off, then one time he was waving to her, and waving to her stretching his head round to wave to her and his intercom plug came out as we were tearing down the runway, to take off, so when Bob Acott said ‘full power’, nothing happened Bill wasn’t on intercom we had a full bomb load so I heard him say’ full power’ and eventually he took his, he had to leave belting…we just staggered off Doddington Road end. Bill Rudd, another time on importance we were diverted to Ford, or Tranmere as the sea approached the runway instead of putting full flap down, he took flap off and I could swear the props hit the sea, oh that was our flying. This chap was posted to our crew at Winthorpe and we very soon realised a little bit, not very good we said to Bob, we should get rid of him Bob, this chaps not, well somebody’s got to take it. But he’d been thrown out from the previous crew he’d being in, they’d wised him up and got rid of him. Bob Acott wouldn’t
MC: So, you were always having to compensate for him?
AA: He should have got a medal, the Iron Cross, First Class, he did his dam to kill us [laughs] but we even survived Bill Rudd, I hope that’s not on tape.
MC: It is, [laughs]
AA: Oh dear, a bit of a lad. I saw him later on in the war, I’d been down to Boston with the wife because she came from Boston and I was in Lancaster, I’d driven down in the car and on the way back we were diverted through Harrogate that’s where he lived and I thought he was so keen a medal, was Bill he wanted to climb in the wing and put the engine fire out with a fire extinguisher and stuff like that. Anyway, I suddenly saw a big board and it said, ‘W. Rudd Demolition Contractor’ and I thought this is too much of a coincidence, so I took the address and followed it round and there he was in the garden digging his garden with a …talking to a chap at the same time, I said “Hello Bill, how’s it going? “He, looked at me, he didn’t know, he hadn’t a clue who I was till I provided him what had happened, oh dear that was the only time I saw him. But Dougie May our bomb aimer, I suddenly decided Dougie and me got on very well so I suddenly decided I’d like to see him again if I could so I got the telephone directory out and looked through all the names in Birmingham, he lived in Birmingham and the first one I tried it was his wife answered I said “I’m looking for a chap called Douglas May that served in Bomber Command during the war”, she said “yes, my husband did”, I said “well just go and ask if he remembers Acott’s shower” so that’s exactly what she said, and he was back on the phone in two seconds, went down to see him and I had him and his wife staying here in this house when the memorial was opened we went and I’ve got a video of us marching, the first march we ever did when the memorial was opened, but unfortunately he’s died since.
MC: Did you get to see any of the other crew, the skipper and that did you meet up?
AA: No I didn’t unfortunately no, because we all went to different, I was posted to Silverstone, I know Bob Acott went down to Swinderby, Dougie went somewhere in London I don’t know where the hell he went and of course Trevor Bowyer left us after twenty ops because it was his second tour, and I don’t know what happened to the mid-upper, Al Bryant after his court martial because he didn’t fly with us again.
MC: Oh, didn’t he?
AA: No. presumably went back to Canada, but Dougie was the only one that I met.
MC: So where was the skipper from?
AA: The skipper was from London, he was on the Metropolitan Police. Anyway, I never offered you a cup of tea.
MC: Oh no, you are alright thank you. Thanks lovely thank you Arthur.
AA: So that’s all right then!
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Arthur Atkinson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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AAtkinsonA150623
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Date
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2015-06-23
Format
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00:40:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Contributor
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Carmel Dammes
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Atkinson was born in Lancaster, and worked in the local Co-Op until he joined the Royal Air Force. He trained as a wireless operator and served at RAF Ringway before being posted to RAF Coningsby and later RAF Skellingthorpe with 61 Squadron. His first operation to Stuttgart was a disaster when the compass failed to work and they landed at RAF Westonzoyland. Over all he completed three daylight and 31 night time operations. He met his wife while in Lincolnshire. After he was de-mobbed he continued to travel with the Royal Air Force as a civilian managing Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes. He also continued his love of flying, joining various flying schools and eventually buying a microlight with his son and flying around Coningsby again. Arthur settled in Lincoln after retiring.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Wales
England--Lincolnshire
England--Somerset
Germany--Stuttgart
Wales--Bridgend
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crewing up
Dominie
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Proctor
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Coningsby
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Ringway
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Weston Zoyland
RAF Yatesbury
training
wireless operator