1
25
13
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1173/23877/OTurnhamK1850743-151002-010001.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1173/23877/OTurnhamK1850743-151002-010002.2.jpg
d5480ad60aa6def75ce56fc92c38af05
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1173/23877/OTurnhamK1850743-151002-010003.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1173/23877/OTurnhamK1850743-151002-010004.2.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Turnham, Ken
K Turnham
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Ken Turnham (1924 - 2018, 1850743, 197068 Royal Air Force) his log book and documents. He completed 29 operations as a wireless operator with 115 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ken Turnham and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Turnham, K
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ken Turnham's substitute Flying Clothing card
Description
An account of the resource
His RAF form 667B raised at RAF Lossiemouth in June 1944, records the issue and return of flying clothing.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-06-25
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Printed booklet with hand written annotations
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
OTurnhamK1850743-151002-010001, OTurnhamK1850743-151002-010002, OTurnhamK1850743-151002-010003, OTurnhamK1850743-151002-010004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-25
RAF Lossiemouth
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/699/17882/LBeardKC1061851v1.1.pdf
4ad3e52cdaa59c602532ab68a2b155c3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beard, Ken
Ken C Beard
K C Beard
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history with Ken Beard (b. 1921, 1061851 Royal Air Force), his air gunners log book, and photographs of him, his wedding and his crew. He flew 31 operations as an air gunner on Halifax with 10 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ken Beard and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Beard, KC
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ken Beard’s flying log book for air gunners
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for air gunner’s for Ken Beard, covering the period from 5 March 1943 to 17 June 1945. Detailing his flying training operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAF Pembrey, RAF Ricall, RAF Melbourne, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Stanton Harcourt and RAF Manby. Aircraft flown in were, Blenheim, Wellington, Halifax and Whitley. He flew a total of 31 operations with 10 squadron. Targets were, Peenemunde, Leverkusen, Berlin, Nuremberg, Rheydt, Baltic Sea, Meulan-les-Mureaux, Essen, Lille, Karlsruhe, Malines, Mantes Gassincourt, Lens, Aachen, Mont Fleuris and St Lo. His pilot on operations was Squadron Leader Kennedy.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LBeardKC1061851v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium--Mechelen
England--Lincolnshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
France--Lens
France--Les Mureaux
France--Lille
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Paris
France--Saint-Lô
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Rheydt
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Wales--Carmarthenshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Berkshire
Scotland--Moray
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1943-08-17
1943-08-18
1943-08-22
1943-08-23
1943-08-24
1943-08-27
1943-08-28
1943-08-31
1943-09-01
1944-02-03
1944-02-04
1944-02-05
1944-02-15
1944-02-22
1944-03-03
1944-03-24
1944-03-26
1944-03-27
1944-03-30
1944-03-31
1944-04-09
1944-04-10
1944-04-24
1944-04-25
1944-04-26
1944-04-27
1944-04-28
1944-05-01
1944-05-02
1944-05-07
1944-05-10
1944-05-11
1944-05-22
1944-05-23
1944-05-24
1944-05-25
1944-06-03
1944-06-04
1944-06-06
1944-06-07
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
10 OTU
10 Squadron
1658 HCU
17 OTU
20 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Blenheim
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Cook’s tour
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Manby
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pembrey
RAF Riccall
RAF Silverstone
RAF Stanton Harcourt
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/673/17408/LAndrewsPF181152.1.pdf
4e6693a47e90ded841a6d3ff0ebe5c28
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Andrews, Andy
Peter Frederick Andrews
P F Andrews
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Andy Andrews (1924 - 2022, 1811552 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 10 Squadron before he was shot down on a mine laying operation 14 February 1945 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by 'Andy' Andrews and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Andrews, PF
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
The page for 14 Feb 1945 has the note ‘Attacked by fighter over Denmark, aircraft blew up at 18000 ft, landed by parachute on the island of Zeeland, taken POW, liberated at Moosburg, nr Munich by Americans. Pilot F/O Grayshan and Navigator F/Sgt Berry both killed.’
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Andy Andrews’ navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book for P F Andrews, wireless operator/air gunner, covering the period from 16 August 1943 to 13 December 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and post war flying. It also gives details of being shot down and baling out over Denmark and landing on Zeeland and becoming a prisoner of war and being liberated by the Americans at Moosburg, Germany. He was stationed at RAF Yatesbury, RAF Barrow, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Rufforth, RAF Melbourne and RAF Upavon. Aircraft flown in were, Dominie, Proctor, Anson, Wellington, Halifax and Oxford. He flew a total of 19 operations with 10 Squadron; 3 daylight and 16 night-time operations, before being shot down on his 19th operation. Targets were, Essen, Cologne, Gelsenkirchen, Munster, Sterkrade, Duisburg, Hagen, Osnabruck, Bingen, Hannover and Bohlen. His pilot on operations was Flying Officer Grayshan. This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form: no better quality copies are available.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LAndrewsPF181152
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
CC BY-NC 4.0 International license
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Denmark
Germany
Great Britain
Denmark--Region Sjælland
England--Cumbria
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saxony
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-10-31
1944-11-01
1944-11-06
1944-11-18
1944-11-21
1944-11-22
1944-11-28
1944-11-29
1944-11-30
1944-12-01
1944-12-02
1944-12-03
1944-12-08
1944-12-09
1944-12-22
1944-12-23
1944-12-30
1944-12-31
1945-01-05
1945-01-06
1945-01-12
1945-01-13
1945-01-14
1945-01-15
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
20 OTU
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bombing
Dominie
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
prisoner of war
Proctor
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
RAF Upavon
RAF Yatesbury
shot down
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1242/16313/LAllenJH179996v1.1.pdf
c9fc81707756633917b840cabd806864
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allen, Jim
J H Allen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant James Henry Allen DFC (b. 1923, 179996 Royal Air Force). He flew a tour of operations as a pilot with 578 Squadron. The collection consists of a number of memoirs, photographs and a diary. It includes descriptions of military life and operations and his post-war life and work.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Steve Allen and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-12
2019-02-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allen, JH
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jim Allen’s Royal Canadian Air Force pilots flying log book
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Canadian Air Force pilots flying log book for J H Allen, covering the period from 2 December 1942 to 14 January 1947. Detailing his flying training, operations flown, instructor duties and post war squadron duties. He was stationed at, RCAF Station Assiniboia, RCAF Station Estevan, RAF Hullavington, RAF Banff, RAF Harwell, RAF Rufforth, RAF Burn, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Merryfield, RAF Stoney Cross, RAF Leaconfield, RAF Stradishall, RAF Homsley South, RAF Bassingbourn and RAF Wratting Common. Aircraft flown in were, Tiger Moth, Anson II, Oxford, Wellington III and X, Halifax II, III and V, Stirling V and York C1. He flew a total of 40 operations with 578 squadron. 19 night and 21 daylight. Targets were, Malines, Berneville, Morsalines, Trouville, Orleans, Boulogne, Bourg Leopold, Trappes, Massey Palaise, Amiens, Douai, St. Martin L’Hortier, Siracourt, Oisemont, Rosingal, Mimoyecques, Wizernes. Villers Bocage, Les Catelliers, Thiverny, Kiel, Stuttgart, Foret de Nieppe, L’Isle Adam, Caen, Foret de Mormal, Somain, Russelsheim, Tirlemont, Venlo, Le Havre, Gelsenkirchen, Munster and Calais. His pilot for his first 'second dickie' operation was Sergeant Harrison.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LAllenJH179996v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Belgium--Leopoldsburg
Belgium--Mechelen
Belgium--Rossignol
Belgium--Tienen
Canada--Assiniboia, District of
England--Berkshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Hampshire
England--Somerset
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
France--Amiens
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Caen
France--Calais
France--Douai
France--Le Havre
France--L'Isle-Adam
France--Nieppe Forest
France--Nord (Department)
France--Normandy
France--Oisemont (Canton)
France--Oise
France--Orléans
France--Paris
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Somain
France--Trouville-sur-Mer
France--Yvelines
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Stuttgart
Netherlands--Venlo
Saskatchewan--Estevan
Scotland--Banff
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
France--Villers-Bocage (Calvados)
France--Neufchâtel-en-Bray
Saskatchewan
Canada
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Les Catelliers
France--Morsalines
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1944-05-01
1944-05-02
1944-05-08
1944-05-09
1944-05-10
1944-05-11
1944-05-12
1944-05-22
1944-05-23
1944-05-24
1944-05-25
1944-05-27
1944-05-28
1944-05-31
1944-06-01
1944-06-11
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-14
1944-06-15
1944-06-17
1944-06-18
1944-06-22
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-06-25
1944-06-27
1944-06-28
1944-06-30
1944-07-01
1944-07-04
1944-07-09
1944-07-12
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-08-03
1944-08-05
1944-08-06
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-09
1944-08-11
1944-08-12
1944-08-13
1944-08-15
1944-08-16
1944-08-17
1944-09-03
1944-09-09
1944-09-10
1944-09-11
1944-09-12
1944-09-17
1944-09-24
1945-06-30
1945-07-04
15 OTU
1663 HCU
20 OTU
578 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
bombing of the Pas de Calais V-1 sites (24/25 June 1944)
Cook’s tour
Flying Training School
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Banff
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Burn
RAF Harwell
RAF Hullavington
RAF Leconfield
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Paignton
RAF Rufforth
RAF Stoney Cross
RAF Stradishall
RAF Wratting Common
RCAF Estevan
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
Tiger Moth
training
V-1
V-3
V-weapon
Wellington
York
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Title
A name given to the resource
Lossiemouth [place]
Inbhir Losaidh
Description
An account of the resource
This page is an entry point for a place. Please use the links below to see all relevant documents available in the Archive.
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1161/11720/ATilleyF150710.2.mp3
e161f12593f172f41d4f00d0934023e7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tilley, Frank
F Tilley
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Frank Tilley (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 617 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tilley, F
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Frank Tilley. The interview is taking place at Mr Tilley’s home in Hitchin, Hertfordshire on the 10th of July 2015. The initial part of this interview covers Mr Tilley’s story of two 617 Squadron attacks on the battleship Tirpitz.
FT: Of the operation beginning we were briefed for some three hours at Woodhall Spa. Followed by a casual flight lasting about two hours to Lossiemouth which would be our advanced base. We, in fact were allocated not Lossiemouth but Milltown which is about ten miles further along the east. The Milltown was a fairly scrappy temporary aerodrome I would imagine. I think it had one runway which headed straight out to the North Sea and actually terminated at the water’s edge. The third attempt, which was our second, took place on the 12th of November. So that once again, the day before — the 11th of November we were awake fairly early. An early morning briefing. Three hours at Woodhall Spa. We again flew to Milltown where we were ensconced and the aircraft were obviously completely re-fuelled and topped everything up to the last gallon sort of thing. And meanwhile we attended the final briefing which took place at Lossiemouth. RAF Lossiemouth. The briefing was exactly similar to all of the other briefings where the target’s identity, the target is identified. There’s maps on the wall. I think the most important part of any briefing is for the navigators. In particular with the Tirpitz problem. The route had to be carefully designed to avoid us getting trapped by the German radar. And the object was to get us as close to the target as possible without being identified. Now, this briefing ended with the, ‘Good luck, chaps,’ as usual. And it was then that they mentioned that the Germans had, since the second attempt, had moved two squadrons of Messerschmitts to Bardufoss which is about forty miles from the Tirpitz. We then had our legendary flying meal of egg, bacon and chips and generally wasted our time I suppose chatting away there until the, gone midnight. Around about 1 o’clock in the morning we were summoned to the coaches to take us the ten miles to Milltown. When we arrived at Milltown it was pitch dark night. Absolutely freezing cold. To the extent that when we arrived at our aircraft it was being sprayed with de-icing fluid along the wings to remove the frost which was rapidly forming. Joppy and I and the rest of the crew boarded the aircraft. There were numerous checks that we had to take before starting the engines as all the other members of the crew did their particular duties as far as preparation were concerned. Now, around about I suppose 2.30 in the morning of the 12th Joppy and I would have started the engines and gradually warmed them up. Meanwhile continuing to do our engine checks and other auxiliary types of checks that we have to do. At 3 o’clock we were ready to take off and taxied our way to the beginning of the runway. Just near the, the colloquially called the caravan. From which one, when they were ready they would give you a green aldis light. Joppy and I would open up the throttles to full power. Three thousand revs per minute. Release the brakes. And this aircraft, now weighing some ten thousand pounds over the, all up weight, trundled down the runway into the North Sea. At about ninety five knots we were running short of runway quite rapidly. Joppy hauled the aircraft into the air and we were airborne. It was a question of wheels up. Later on, flaps up. I adjusted the throttles to the proper cruising level. Maximum fuel economy. And roughly at about six hundred feet over the North Sea we made our way northwards. Heading out over the North Sea, over the Moray Firth and kept the Shetlands on our port side. And some short distance past the Shetlands the Gee box navigating equipment no longer functioned because it was designed for the whole of Europe. Thus the navigator’s job began, began to get rather difficult. He had to navigate using what we called dead reckoning by taking astro shots from stars and obtaining wind drift which is a sort of combination between the navigator and the guy in the rear turret. And myself I, I had to go down, open the door at the back of the aircraft and when asked I tossed out a flame float which the rear gunner would then sight his guns on the flame float and he was able to read a protractor reading from the rim of his turret. This would be relayed on the intercom to Basil, the navigator. Thus we were able to keep on track and navigate where exactly we were. At something like sixty four degrees north, we turned to starboard heading straight into Norway. We now had to start climbing to ensure we got over the Norwegian Alps of some five thousand feet. We flew into Norway, over the Alps and continued in that direction until we entered Sweden. Into Sweden we then turned port again and headed north. All the way up Sweden keeping as low as poss, as the territory would enable. Would allow. Thus we eventually reached the rendezvous point which was a long narrow lake in Sweden. When we arrived there we realised that the rest of the eighteen members of the squadron were gathering and circling which was quite remarkable when you think they all arrived there on dead reckoning within about fifteen minutes of each other. At a, a couple of green verey cartridges shot out from the Wing Commander Tait’s aircraft, told us to follow him towards the Tirpitz. The attack was now beginning. He carried on at low level and then at the correct time the navigator would indicate to Joppy, the pilot and we began climbing to our allocated bombing height which in our case was fifteen thousand two hundred feet. Now, at this point we reached our altitude and Lofty, the New Zealand bomb aimer, alerted us that he could see the Tirpitz in the dim distance some thirty odd miles away. And he relished the idea of sighting it and doing a bombing run at that particular angle. The rest of the squadron appeared to be veering off to starboard. They obviously had a different track. Lofty kept us on this track for several minutes as we got closer and closer to the Tirpitz. The indications from his bombsight would tell the pilot whether to move left, right or carry on this particular course. My job was to control the aircraft’s speed as precisely as possible and also make certain that the altitude was steady as well. We were not going down or up but everything had to be made exactly correct. And this carries on until the bomb automatically released. This is the automatic stabilised bombsight. By now the Germans had decided to welcome us. The anti-aircraft guns were busy shooting up anti-aircraft shells to us which were bursting just in front of the aircraft. Or it seemed like just in front but they had our height absolutely dead right. Remarkable really. And, so we had to press on regardless of the flak until the bomb was released. And even then we still have to remain exactly the same level and same speed while the automatic cameras photographed the descent of the bomb. The five and a half tonne Tallboy armour piercing bomb. Eventually we were able to close the bomb doors which switched off the camera and thankfully dived away out of the flak. We dived down and kept diving down to reduce our height. Headed back down south over the North Sea and levelled out at something like six hundred feet again. And I began re-tuning the engines and adjusting the throttles for maximum fuel economy. In other words our maximum cruising levels. At this point I was somewhat perturbed to find that the port outer, the engine was not, not responding to the movements of the throttle. At fifteen thousand three hundred feet it was obviously set at something like plus seven boost which is supercharged effect. There it was down at sea level still running at plus seven boost which would be consuming fuel at a fair, a fair rate. Quite unnecessary for us. And so we had to make our way back to the British Isles using only three engines. This meant the aircraft does not, does not fly quite so efficiently. And when we got near the British Isles, near the Shetlands in fact, I alerted the pilot that we were running very short of fuel and I did not think we would be able to reach Lossiemouth. Not safely anyhow. Thus the pilot, Joppy, he called up the airfield at Sumburgh Head, Shetlands, asking permission to land. Now, the runway there was not designed for four engine bombers. It was just about adequate for the light aircraft that were using it for Fleet Air Arm purposes etcetera. And we made attempt to land on three engines. We overshot for the first one. We came in too high so it was a matter of opening up the throttles to full power again. Flaps half way up. And we regained our height. Soared over some rising ground which is just south of the Sumburgh Head. Did another circuit and this time Joppy made a perfect landing on the three engines and we stopped just nicely at the end of the runway. We piled out of course. The aircraft was shunted to the fuelling depot where the tanks were topped up for us and the local, local people at the Sumburgh were excellent. They welcomed us with open arms. Told us of the success of the sinking of the Tirpitz and provided us with welcome coffee and sandwiches. While this was going on I decided I’d have a go at repairing the link that was obviously broken to the port outer engine. I referred to the engineering officer for some trestles but trestles did not exist at Lossiemouth. They weren’t designed for four engine bombers. So I borrowed only the next best thing which was a ladder. I removed the engine cowling which is on the port side of the engine and lo and behold there was this link just dangling there. For the life of me, after all these years I cannot remember the detail of how I did it but somehow or other I managed to reconnect the throttle link with Joppy back in the cockpit and responding to my, my calls. We, he exercised the throttle just to test it out and yes it was okay. So, we now had four good Merlin engines once more. I replaced the cowling. We said our goodbyes. We restarted the engines from the internal batteries and, and off we went. And as we had sufficient fuel we decided to fly straight down to our base at Woodhall Spa where we were debriefed and given our legendary returned flying meal of which we were very grateful. We were. We were, the bomb aimer, Lofty, he said, ‘Do you know what lads?’ He said, ‘I’ve just worked it out. We’ve been on our feet non-stop for thirty six hours.’ Well, we were very very tired but quite elated that at last we’d sunk old Churchill’s beast for him. And that’s really the end of my Tirpitz story.
[recording paused]
FT: The problem the squadron had to solve for this attack was one of getting there and back. Now, if you took a straight line from Lossiemouth to the Tirpitz and back you could probably do it. You were just about two thousand one hundred miles. But like I mentioned earlier we had to take careful action to avoid radar which meant an indirect route in fact. As you know which we went into Sweden and then flew north. So, this added quite a few air miles to the problem. And there would be insufficient fuel. When you think a Lancaster basically carries two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallons of fuel and a Lancaster, fully loaded performs about one point one mile per gallon. So, there you have it. We really, the fuel situation basically would be too marginal. Thus we needed to take action. Firstly, extra fuel. They removed the rest bed behind the rear spar. I beg your pardon, behind the front spar. Between the two spars it was. They removed the rest bed which also contained the oxygen bottles. There were twelve oxygen bottles normally. They removed eleven. Left us just one. In that space they installed a Wellington tank of some two hundred gallons. It was a long, rectangular shape. And on top of that a Mosquito tank of fifty gallons. Now, this meant we had added weight. So, you now have to go and start reducing weight. Firstly, they removed the entire mid-upper turret. Guns, turret, the lot and blanked in the space in the roof of the aircraft. They removed the armour plate from behind the pilot’s seat. They took out the guns from the front turret and reduced the ammunition for the rear turret down to some four hundred rounds. Thus the, the sort of equilibrium was kind of re-established. While the aircraft were away at the maintenance unit having these modifications carried out they removed the standard Merlin engines and replaced them with Merlin 24s. The most powerful engine available at the time. They also fitted paddle bladed propellers which theoretically enables the engine power to be used in the form of additional thrust. Now, the, just a word about the added fuel tanks. This entailed quite a lot of what you might call amateur plumbing. You can just imagine connecting two extra tanks and feeding them into the standard fuel system of the Lancaster with various stop cocks available. Thus the job of the flight engineer was somewhat enhanced because we had to juggle with the pumps to pump the fuel around, keep the aircraft balanced and make certain that the engines were not starved of fuel at any point in time. The, I must say that despite the joints being perfectly sound you cannot stop the odour from that hundred octane from leaking out. And the aircraft smelled quite strongly of hundred octane which is rather unpleasant. Especially when you’re living with it for some thirteen hours. And if there was a spark heaven knows what would have happened. Or if we’d been attacked and there was a tracer shell, we’d have gone up in flames in no time at all. But I always felt a bit apprehensive before we, before a trip but I suppose that was just me. Some guys carried it off as if they were going to a Christmas party. I don’t remember us mentioning it on the aircraft. I mean you would have thought we would have been chatting but we weren’t.
AP: Right.
FT: It was very quiet. It’s like that really. You get on with your own job and concentrate like hell on what you’re supposed to be doing and there was no loose chat or anything like that. But, well that’s the way we were anyway. So, we did our, you’d think it would have been the obvious thing to do to turn right but we turned left. We went to port and swung right around in an arc and that’s when I was able to look out when we completed the arc, to the port side. And I just caught the last glimpse of the Tirpitz and she seemed to be starting to list. And then it was full power and dive down and get the hell out of here because, well naturally, we thought the fighters were waiting for us. But that’s a miracle. How we, how we’re still here I don’t know. I don’t think many of us would have got back.
AP: No.
FT: Remember this is daylight. And if a Lancaster gets attacked by a Messerschmitt in daylight there’s only one winner and it’s not the Lancaster. I mean, our guns were .303. They were like peashooters and the range was about a hundred yards. Well, the Germans had cannons. And their range was three hundred yards. It’s a well-known fact. I mean we were outgunned right, all the time. We had, we had no real defences. Not the Lancaster.
AP: So —
FT: I think really, now I’m at this age I think about how lucky we were. Perhaps more often than we did when I was twenty one. We never even mentioned it really. We just did our job. We landed back in, eventually at Woodhall Spa. Got debriefed. And then, as you probably heard we got thirty six hours leave and Sir Archibald Sinclair turned up and did his stuff. And Basil and I went to my place, I lived in North London and spent the night with me and we went to the theatre in the evening.
AP: Did you —
[recording paused]
AP: Ok. So, we’re ready to go. This is coming back.
FT: Ok.
AP: Yeah. This is the raid on Pölitz on the way back.
FT: 21st of December.
AP: 21st of December 1944.
FT: That’s it. Well, the weather. You couldn’t design worse weather. Lincolnshire, 21st of December 1944. We were briefed to go to Pölitz which is near Stettin and bomb the oil refineries. And our bomb aimer, Lofty Hebbard was off sick but there was a flight lieutenant bomb aimer who needed one more operation to complete his double tour. Forty five trips. And he, he asked Joppy if he would be, he could be Joppy’s bomb aimer. Well we were quite honoured to be, Skip- if you like, accompanied by such a veteran bomb aimer. But the thing, the briefing was done, we boarded the aircraft. I think it was drizzling with rain and very, very limited visibility and I think we spent about two hours in the aircraft waiting for the signal to taxi out to take off and it was cancelled. We went back to the flights, what we called the flights, again. De-kitted ourselves. A couple of hours later it was back on. So, out we trooped again on to the buses to our aircraft. Got everything revved up. This time away we went. We took off in almost blackness. It was filthy weather and visibility was really down but we took off and the journey to Pölitz was virtually uneventful. We did our bombing run, as far as I’m aware quite satisfactorily and headed for home. Now, I believe that on the way home some of the aircraft could pick up radio messages to say that if there were any doubts in their minds they could divert to Prestwick in Scotland if they had sufficient fuel. I didn’t think we did have enough fuel so we headed back to Lincolnshire. We looked at Woodhall Spa and the fog was absolutely dense and thick. So we headed for Ludford Magna nearby. There was what they called a FIDO installation whereby the runways are transversed with burning fuel which lifts the fog and you fly into a sort of tunnel of clear air. Unfortunately, when we called up for permission to land so were dozens of others doing the same thing. We were not even sure whether our, our message had been received. There was certainly no response. We, we were zooming around. Just cruising around waiting to make some progress towards a landing when there was a tremendous bang on the left hand side of the aircraft. I looked out to port side and in time to see the port wing just outside of the port outer folding up to a vertical position. Meanwhile the gauges, engine gauges were dancing around. The needles were dancing around and the skipper was saying, ‘Full power.’ He didn’t need to say it either. I’d already tried it and we were quite unable to get any response from the aircraft at all. So Joppy started calling base saying, ‘T Tare crashing. T Tare crashing.’ And Joppy said to all of us, the crew, ‘Ditching stations. Ditching stations.’ Now, ditching station means that you then leave your position you’re normally at. You dive over the front spar and take up what they call a crash position. Well, the thing happened such a long while ago and it was so horrible that I can only remember unplugging my headset and presumably diving over the front spar. I don’t even remember that. Soon after that, or it must have been almost immediately we, we hit the ground and the aircraft going from, what shall we say a hundred and eighty knots down to zero certainly puts a bit of a strain on things. And when I came around I found I was fastened to the floor. And I realised that my parachute harness somehow had got wedged into something on the floor. But I was able to release myself by turning the release mechanism on the parachute harness and punch the big disk and got free. I sort of dragged myself to my feet and then sort of fell back down again. I realised that my right leg was broken. I saw Basil to the left of me. I must, there must have been some light. I think what it was, the fuel, the fuel lines which ran across, laterally across the front, rear of the front spar had obviously been fractured or made to leak and they’d ignited. So there was burning fuel across the floor which made us, if you like, need to get out of the wretched place. And I said, I saw Basil holding his head and shouted to him, ‘Wake up Basil. Let’s get the hell out of here.’ And that was the last time I saw him for a while because I then, somehow or other, hopped, and it’s funny really. In the training, my escape, my escape hatch was just above the wireless operator’s position. Just to the rear of the astrodome. And when I think of it now I must have been daft because I could have easily dived over the rear spar, made my way backwards to the main door. Instead of which I reached up, released this hatch and hauled myself up on my arms and then extricated myself from the aircraft by falling over backwards down to the ground. Now, imagining that the aircraft was about to blow up with all these fuel, fuel leaks all blazing away there like blow lamps and I crawled away to a sort of safe distance on this muddy field. Well, after a while Basil, who’d got out okay from the rear door, he had, bless his heart, rushed around to the front and extricated Joppy, the pilot who was, whose legs were badly injured. They’d been caught up in the rudder pedals and he had multiple fractures of both legs. So, Basil did a stirling job in carrying Joppy to a safe place. Now, a little while later the wireless operator, how, that was Cookie, Gordon Cooke, how he got out I shall never know but I presume he just did what was sensible. Went over the rear spar and out through the door. Now, the mid-upper gunner was Bob Yates but since he had no turret because the aircraft was still in the same uniform as when we did the Tirpitz there was no mid-upper turret for him but I suppose Bob wanted to clock up another operation on his logbook so he just came as a passenger. And I never did see him. I don’t know what happened to him but he was dead I’m afraid. And then, I think I mentioned about Cookie. Cookie found me lying on the ground. Cookie was able to walk but he’d got a rather nasty burn on his back of his hand and he’d also bruised his innards from when he’d impacted on his radio set. So, he was a little bit incoherent. That accounted for us two anyway. The dreadful tragedy is that this long-serving, two tour Flight Lieutenant Arthur Walker was killed instantly I should think because he was down in the bomb bay in the bomb aimers compartment unfortunately. He should not have been there. He should have taken up ditching station. The rear gunner, Tommy Thompson survived with a fractured back. And we then found ourselves eventually in hospital. And by the time I recovered from my injuries and went to convalescent the war in Europe was over. I went back to the squadron and was told that I could be made redundant because they didn’t need me anymore. And I then went into the waiting for discharge syndrome. Which was pretty boring. And there ends my career. Well I, my RAF career was fairly short and the operational career was even shorter. So I’ve got nothing to be very proud of but when I look back I must say I, I feel so thankful that I got through the war. There was several, several times when we could have got, got killed and, but we didn’t and we got through it. And for that I’m very very thankful but also quite glad that I only did a little bit but what I did they’re welcome.
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Title
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Interview with Frank Tilley
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATilleyF150710
Format
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00:36:23 audio recording
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Tilley was a flight engineer with 617 Squadron. He took part in the operation to sink the Tirpitz. He explains his flights and briefings before the operation at Woodhall Spa, Milltown and Lossiemouth. On their return from sinking the Tirpirtz, they had an engine problem affecting the power and fuel consumption. As they were perilously short on fuel they diverted to RAF Sumburgh. There Frank was able to repair the aircraft and they returned to Woodhall Spa. The bomb aimer proudly proclaimed to the crew that at that point they had been on their feet for thirty six straight hours. Frank was returning from an operation on Pölitz in December 1944. when they were again perilously low on fuel but found Woodhall Spa was fogged in so they had to try Ludford Magna which had FIDO. While waiting for permission to land there was a loud bang and one wing collapsed. After the resulting crash Frank managed to get out of the aircraft with a broken leg. The navigator was able to rescue the pilot whose legs were badly damaged. Two of the crew were killed in the crash.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Steph Jackson
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Norway
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
Norway--Tromsø
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Scotland--Shetland
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-12
617 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bombing
crash
FIDO
flight engineer
fuelling
Gee
Lancaster
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Milltown
RAF Sumburgh
RAF Woodhall Spa
target photograph
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1102/11561/ARogersH150409.1.mp3
dbd0ef512560ca7e34fc539235de3d90
Dublin Core
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Title
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Rogers, Hugh
H Rogers
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Hugh Rogers (Royal Air Force). He was a film cameraman with 463 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-04-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rogers, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Hugh Rogers. Mr. Rogers was one of the film cameramen on board a specially modified Lancaster from 463 Squadron Royal Australian Air Force that filmed the sinking of the Tirpitz on November the 12th 1944. The interview is taking place at [file missing], Bristol on the 9th of April 2015.
HR: I recall two memorable days seventy years ago, the eleventh and the twelfth of November 1944. On the morning of the eleventh I was instructed to report to headquarters at Bomber Command at High Wycombe. That surprised me because people like me didn’t go to the headquarters at Bomber Command and also I’d only recently been posted to the film production unit which I now served. In the event two cameramen reported at headquarters, the first Flight Lieutenant Loftus as a Canadian Airforce and secondly myself Flying Officer Rogers RAF of the film unit. We were briefed standing at a small, very small table in a very large room. We were both members of the number one film production unit RAF at that time. We were told at this briefing that we were to bomb the giant German battleship Tirpitz moored in the Arctic and that we were to join the main force of Lancasters at the RAF base in Lossiemouth, Scotland. We were briefed on the very precise route to be taken to reach the Arctic base of the Tirpitz. It was explained to us that following the bombing, the main force would fly west and return to Scotland. The camera Lancaster, which we should be flying, would fly south and return directly to Waddington. So the film could be transported to London by road, processed and as soon as possible, the pictures distributed. The propaganda value was important to the Allies and it was thought would be devastating to the German population morale. Late on the ninth or the eleventh, our Australian pilot, Flight Lieutenant Buckham completed the first part of the operation, flying Lancaster HD399 to RAF Lossiemouth, which is near Inverness, Scotland. HD399 was a Lancaster of the Australian Squadron 463 manned by an all-Australian crew and [unclear] us two cameramen. The aircraft had been modified for our special requirement, the first turret had, the front turret had the guns removed which were replaced with a mounted IMO 200-foot camera. In the fuselage area the mid upper turret with guns had been removed and the fuselage repaired so that the two areas in the fuselage were then available for the second cameraman. The opened panel at the rear of the bomb bay gave a vertical sighting and the second sight on the door edge to the starboard side of the fuselage, the top half of which opened at the time of filming hence required an electrical heated inner suit, I learned that the temperature at my station was minus nineteen ten Centigrade and confirmed my view that I had drawn the short straw. To sustain our fifteen hour flight we did not have a Tallboy bomb loaded but there was a large red fuel tank fitted in the space above the bomb bay. It contained about eighty tons of fuel which I rested on during the flight, my abiding [unclear] memory of the short time in Lossiemouth was to, was being in a badly-lit barnlike room with Wing Commander Tait giving his last remarks to the nineteen pilots on 617 Squadron. We were all standing in the group around Tait, I was standing at the back, he emphasized the importance of the prescribed course which had been designed to avoid detection by the enemy. Over the North Sea the course was to be at fifteen hundred feet and this was to be maintained until the Norwegian coast was approached. So in the early hours of Sunday the eleventh of November, there was a shattering noise as the engine started up in preparation for the three [unclear] take off. The course was to be across, north-east across the North Sea. Round about seven o’clock in the morning we changed course directly east, when we approached the snow covered mountains of Norway. We had been flying at about eight, fifteen hundred feet across the North Sea but the height was then maintained to cover the mountains and we flew direct west into Sweden. Where we turned north so that we could follow the boundary between Norway and Sweden at an altitude which would not expose us to the German radar. We, once we had crossed the mountains, we then reduced the altitude to a reasonably low level. We then had to fly north all along the route between Norway and Sweden until we reached the assembly point at Lake Tornea Trask east of Narvik, some one hundred miles from Tromso. In those Northern latitudes the daylight comes late and I remember, as it got daylight, climbing over the central spire of the aircraft and going into the cockpit. Now, I was very impressed looking out of the cockpit but even at that early hour I could see the path that we were to take, all the lakes were covered by small, lenticular clouds, these saucer like clouds could have been used by the observer to mark his route north to Narvik, that was another of my abiding memories, when all the aircraft had reached the lake Tait fired vary lights at which point all the aircraft then assembled into a battle station and followed Tait on the route to Tromso. As all the aircraft were assembling into position over the lake, we had all gained height to twelve thousand feet, at this height we were able to cross the mountain into the fjord where the Tirpitz was moored. Now, as we crossed the mountain, we were some twenty miles from the Tirpitz, it was a mere small speck at that distance, and of course it was in reverse, we were small specks to the Tirpitz. Now, we know later that it caused consternation on the Tirpitz, not expecting us they suddenly realised that they should call for help and this they immediately did apparently, so I learned later but there was no response to their call, to the call for help from the Messerschmitts. Soon after we were spotted by the Tirpitz they assembled their gun positions and their enormous guns, fifteen inch guns which fired shells of one ton, took a few seconds to get to elevation but in that time they realised that we were too high for the big guns firing one ton shells could reach us but the shells were fall exploding ahead of us and slightly below us. Now in our film Lancaster they were close enough to cause some vibration and movement to the plane, now we had to hold the camera steady in spite of that movement, I think we achieved this, as we got closer to the Tirpitz the ack-ack, small ack-ack guns started and actually it got presumed, because of the panic on board the ship they were not too accurate. As the operation developed John Loftus, lucky chap, was in the front turret and he was able from the front turret to swing the turret round and track the first Tallboys being delivered, being dropped from the aircraft. I couldn’t see that but I was able then to go from the side position and film the first, first few bombs exploding around the ship. As I was working through that open space over the door, I could feel myself getting colder but I wasn’t distracted from what I was doing but I could see the ship being hit, I could see the steam and the smoke coming up and I could see especially I remember at the time it impressed me, that what had happened to the guns on the island when Tallboy landed on the island on the starboard side of the operation. After the last aircraft had gone, I remember walking up or crawling up to the cockpit and looking out of the cockpit and the pilot had dived to the starboard to the right and he was about five thousand feet at the time he’d finished and we could see all the smoke and steam and then he immediately turned on a course which we left because we were going back to Waddington and the rest of the force had gone west of Scotland, but much to our surprise, as we started our course to Waddington, the rear gunner shouted out to the skipper, that he could see the Tirpitz turning over so we turned, the skipper, the pilot turned the aircraft to the starboard so we could see but the pilot was on the other side, sitting on the other side, he couldn’t see it so in order to see it, he dipped the starboard wing and again lowered his altitude and we could see in the distance that by that time [unclear] the smoke and the steam seemed to have gone or there was a haze over the aircraft and you could see that it was upside down. Now, I can’t remember how quickly it was done but the pilot knew that as a squadron Messerschmitts we didn’t know the Germans had been informed by radar but it was time to get out so from that time on we kept on our course back to Waddington. So after that unforgettable operation we headed south across the seas, Norwegian sea, The North Sea and down to Waddington. After a flight of close on fifteen hours where we were met by General [unclear] who collected the film as soon as possible but he was taking it to London to be processed and that was on the Prime Minister, I believe on the Prime Minister’s instruction to get the film out developed as soon as possible for propaganda reasons and also he thought the Prime Minister expected it to devastate the morale of the German people because Hitler had always told them that the Tirpitz was unsinkable. And once again 617 Squadron and 9 Squadron had proved Hitler wrong.
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Title
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Interview with Hugh Rogers
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Andrew Panton
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-04-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARogersH150409
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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00:13:45 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Hugh Rogers was a cameraman during the war and remembers filming the sinking of the Tirpitz in November 1944. Gives a vivid and detailed account of the operation, describing the briefing, the technical modifications to the aircraft and the unfolding of the events.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Norway
England--Lincolnshire
Norway--Tromsø
Scotland--Moray
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Norway--Narvik
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-12
463 Squadron
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
Lancaster
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Waddington
Tallboy
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/942/11301/AMacraeWM161116.1.mp3
84f04c8bc5c17a43471fbbf8d7624df3
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Title
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Macrae, Bill
W M Macrae
Description
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An oral history interview with Bill Macrae (1913 - 2019, 3031774, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 104 Squadron in North Africa and Italy.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Macrae, WM
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincolnshire, UK and it’s part of the Oral History Programme. I’m the interviewer. I’m John Horsburgh and today I’m interviewing Bill Macrae. Bill was a pilot and he served with 104 Squadron RAF and he was flying Wellington bombers. And he was part of the Desert Air Force. North Africa and Italy campaigns. So, it’s a very interesting story. The interview is at Bill’s home in Chatswood in New South Wales and today is the 16th of November 2016. So, good afternoon Bill. I’m very pleased to be interviewing you for this. Why don’t we start at the start? The, your date of birth and where you were born and we’ll take it from there.
BM: I was born on the 14th of January 1913 at a place called Coraki which is up the far north coast near Lismore. On a farm. And my earliest memory was of the end of the First World War when late one evening a man came galloping down the main road singing out, “The war is over. The war is over.” And I remember very well also when all the soldiers came back where they put on a big return party at the local showground. And I remember there one of them picked me up and threw me up in the air and I boasted about that ever since. That’s the first time I was ever airborne. After that I went to a local school. About ten pupils in it I think, and teaching was rather elementary I suppose but we got the basics. And from there we moved to another farm up at Kyogle which is about, a town about thirty miles further north. And I was there until we came to Sydney in about 1923 and I went to school in Sydney. And at that time in 1926 or ‘7 the Depression came along and that’s one of my main regrets in life that my father lost his money and he had to go back to the bush and start again. And I had to get a job which I was very fortunate. I had an old uncle who had been in the Bank of New South Wales and he got me a job there. And none of my friends had a job. And people don’t realise how dire the straits of everyone else was in the workforce. I think unemployment was about twenty, twenty five percent. And in those day there were very few women working. But I remember the, I started work in Sydney in March 1929 in a two storey building in George Street with a wooden wire cage lift with a bit of rope used as a thing to lower it up and down. And I worked there for about three or four or five years and in 1937 the bank decided to send me to London for three years. Which was one of the greatest breaks I’ve had in life. And the general manager of the bank was Sir Alfred Davidson and he had the idea I think that the, a lot of young fellows in the bank were hillbillies. It would be a good thing if they had a bit of overseas experience. So he sent quite a few of us over there which I think was a very expensive exercise and which rather got him out of favour with the directors. He was wasting money on us really because we went over there completely unsupervised and we sort of had a tourist time. Not having to do much hard work.
JH: Meanwhile Bill was there a sense that there was trouble? When you went over there there was trouble brewing in Germany?
BM: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. I realised that the, there would be a war and I decided at that stage to learn a bit of German. So I went along at night to learn German. And I got to the stage I could understood Hitler’s ravings. And I also went over to Germany on holidays in 1939 and lived with a German family in Munich. And I gathered there that the Germans were right behind Hitler because he gave them hope. As the lady of the house where I was boarding said, ‘Well, he gave us hope,’ and said, ‘Otherwise we were completely —’ the biggest mistake of the war was the Germans were treated very harshly in the Treaty of Versailles. And they were a very proud race and they had no future. And she said, ‘Hitler gave us a future,’ she said, ‘We didn’t agree with him. And we didn’t like Goering. We thought he was a joke. But he gave our kids Hitler Youth ideology.’ Which was very, very good. The young Germans really impressed me. I mean as a tourist they’d see, if you asked them anywhere they’d not only point it out to you but they’d go with you. And very, very well mannered. And the Hitler Youth I think were completely mislead and indoctrinated by Hitler which was very, very unfortunate. But I liked the young Germans and I loved their singing. I loved their music. And I loved their general method of morality which was very high. Which I’m afraid at that time in England you had the shocker yobbos and the young people there didn’t impress you as opposed to the young Germans. At any rate I backed the wrong horse. I got back to England and a bit later on of course war broke out in September ’39. And I was very sympathetic to the German cause and I very easily could have become indoctrinated by the German ideals I think. At any rate. I decided that war might be over by Christmas so I thought I’d better sort of do something about it. I went along to Australia House and I was very fortunate there to have met a military man. Captain Pollard. He later became quite a good, he later got a knighthood and he later became a general but at that stage he was just a captain in the army.
JH: An Australian.
BM: And he said to me —
JH: Australian army or British army?
BM: Australian army.
JH: Australian army. Yeah.
BM: He was attached temporarily on a course with the British army.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate he said there was no Australian army starting up in London, ‘You’ll have to go back to Australia.’ And he said, ‘But I can get you into the, New Zealand has started a little army. Either that or the British army.’ At any rate I said, ‘You’d better make it the British army,’ because New Zealanders didn’t like Australians very much in those days. And, I don’t know. I don’t think that persists but then I think they regarded us as the descendants of convicts [laughs] They thought they were a bit superior to Australians I think. So, I decided not to join the New Zealand Army. They started an anti-tank regiment there and I saw them in training later on. But I was very amazed then within a matter of two weeks I suddenly got a notice, call up notice to report to Woolwich. The headquarters of the artillery and to join an officer training course for the artillery which, back to when I’d left Australia as I said if I’d ever join the British army and become an officer was completely out of my mind. But at any rate I joined the British Army. Trained with them at Aldershot. South of London there. And graduated as a lieutenant, Royal Artillery in March 1940 and was posted back to Woolwich to go to France. And at that stage we sat at Woolwich for about a month and that was when the Germans attacked in France. And that’s when the Germans sort of over ran the British Army in France.
JH: So you could have ended up on the beach.
BM: Yeah. So I never —
JH: Yeah.
BM: I never got to France. Which was a bit fortunate. But I got posted to a British artillery regiment between Canterbury and Dover. And I was down there during the Battle of Britain and wonderful front line seats of the battles that raged overhead in the air. And that gave me a yearning to get into the air force I’m afraid. And a notice came around in the artillery regiment. They’d decided to start up a thing called a flying OP. Operational Post training for directing gunfire from the air. Then I put my name in and as a result of that I got posted to an air force station at Woodley.
JH: Woodley.
BM: Which was west of London. I remember —
JH: Was that an —
BM: On the day that I —
JH: Yeah.
BM: That day up there it took me all day to get through London. It had been damaged by bombing. But I got to Woodley about dusk. And as I was walking across the aerodrome to go to the mess hut there which was an inn on the edge of the aerodrome a Hurricane was circling around at zero feet. And it finally landed and almost ran into a hedge. And I hurried across and the pilot clambered out and a very strange language, ‘Where am I? Where am I?’ And he was a Pole. He’d been up fighting the Germans and got lost. And as a result of that he stayed with us that night.
JH: Yes.
BM: You can imagine. We heard his whole life story.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he was really angry with the Germans. Really, really angry. And his history was that he’d been in the Polish Air Force and they were knocked out of the war more or less overnight. First when war was first declared.
JH: Well they had cavalry charges, didn’t they?
BM: And he went down. Got out through Italy.
JH: Yes.
BM: To Gibraltar. Then got up back to England. And he trained then with the RAF. And I might say they were a gallant mob the Polish aircrew. Very gallant.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were I’d say better lot of aeroplanes and I remember my rear gunner who had earlier on been posted to a Polish fighter squadron as a gunner in a Boulton Paul Defiant, that was a single engine fighter with a turret just behind the pilot. And he said the pilot there said, ‘If you don’t shoot them down I’ll ram them.’ And he said, ‘He meant it.’ At any rate the rear gunner was very happy to train with a timid pilot like me, I think.
JH: So, Bill, just, just run me through the type of aircraft you flew during training. Did you start with the, for example Tiger Moth?
BM: I trained on a single engine Miles Magister. I remember the first couple of flights very well because it was December then and there was a frost on the ground. You could see the River Thames below. You could see a village there with smoke coming up and you could see Windsor Castle in the background. I said to the, I was flying at the time, he was sitting in front and you communicated by a speaking tube.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I said to him, ‘What a marvellous sight this is.’ I was completely wrapped up in the view. He said, ‘I’ve got it,’ he took over the ruddy plane and put into a dive. Straight down to the village below and said, he said, ‘Do you see that church down there? Do you see the graveyard? If you don’t watch your airspeed that’s where you’ll finish up.’ [laughs] That’s when I found the number one in flying is your airspeed. You’ve got to watch it. Watch it. Watch it. Coming in to land. Taking off. All the time.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: That was my first. And that was the approach I used when I was instructing people flying. That’s the approach I used with them too later on.
JH: It sounds like a very good tip you got there. It stood you in good stead.
BM: At any rate I didn’t, didn’t, wasn’t posted back then to my original place. I was posted back to Woolwich. And I sat there for a couple of weeks. At that stage there were quite a few air raids on London.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I remember there was an unexploded bomb landed on the Woolwich College. We were all evacuated while they dealt with it. They dealt with it by boring a hole in it both sides with a drill clamped to the thing. And then they squirted water in to sort of do the — get rid of the explosive. I remember that quite well.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then I got a posted from there down to the mouth of the Thames to Shoeburyness which was a medium and heavy artillery training regiment. And I trained people there.
JH: Yes.
BM: And got very friendly with the colonel in charge of the place and I told him how I’d love to get in to the bloody air force. I’d already done some flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he said, ‘Well, I’ve got a friend at the war house.’
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he said, ‘If you like I’ll give you a letter of introduction to him.’ And he gave me a couple of days off to go up to the war house which had been evacuated to Cheltenham.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he was there. A series of big huts. They kept all the army records there.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate I went up there and I went out and I met the major man. His friend. And as a result of that I got a transfer to the air force.
JH: That’s marvellous. So did you then —
BM: I must say —
JH: Go to an OTU? Officer training unit in the air force.
BM: No. That was [pause] they sent me to another Elementary Flying Course.
JH: Oh yes. Of course.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But I might say the reason I was popular with the man at Shoeburyness was, well it was on the shore there it was set right the tide would go out over the sand and mud flats as far as the eye could see and then the tide would come in lapping. And I realised no one had been fishing there for years. And there was a boat shed there with a little rowing boat.
JH: Yes.
BM: I got the rowing boat out at the right tide. I went out and I caught flounder by the dozen.
JH: Good Lord.
BM: I was feeding the bloody mess with fish. Rationing was on but not very severe.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I was very popular with the CO as a result of it. That’s how I got into the air force [laughs]
JH: That’s an amazing —
BM: That’s when I got posted to a —
JH: Amazing story. Yeah.
BM: Posted from the place by the sea to, to a college at Cambridge.
JH: Cambridge.
BM: Another. Yes.
JH: In Cambridge or —
BM: In Cambridge. Yeah.
JH: Oh right. Yeah.
BM: Not the airfield.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It was an initial training place where they were marching people around who had just joined the air force.
JH: Yes. A bit of square bashing.
BM: I explained to the man in charge and as a result of that he got me moved from there after a couple of weeks.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But it was a very pleasant interlude. I joined with the elders at the dining mess and I had a very pleasant couple of weeks at Cambridge.
JH: Yes.
BM: Went punting on the Backs and it was very pleasant. At any rate I got posted then to another Elementary Flying School at Peterborough.
JH: Yes.
BM: I went there for another couple of months and from there I was posted to the next stage which was Flying Training School. Elementary to begin with. Then you went to a flying training. If you were going in to bombers you went over, the training place was twin engine planes which — that’s where I got posted.
JH: Yes.
BM: Cranwell had twin-engined Oxfords.
JH: Yes.
BM: Airspeed Oxfords. Which is a very pleasant aeroplane to fly.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I trained on that and a couple of things there that come to mind. When I arrived in 1941, about a week before Whittle’s jet had been flying there for the first time. It was the talk of the station. Highly secret of course. You were told not on any account to mention this but I heard all about it but I actually didn’t see it flying. But that’s where it first flew. It was housed in a hangar away at the far end of the aerodrome and guarded by civilian police apparently. They wouldn’t trust the air force guards for the secrecy angle.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate it took a couple of years for that to be developed. If you read Whittle’s book I think they got the Rover people to start trying to develop it. They didn’t do much and then they handed it over to Rolls Royce and it got going within about twelve months after that. But of course the Germans had a jet flying in 1938 and they had the same experience. They realised that it would take a couple of years to develop and Hitler decided to adapt the scientific wing when it was flying because it would take a couple of years before it could. But as it turned out it took about three years before the Germans were able to develop it. And it took the British about three years too.
JH: So it became operational during.
BM: Before they got [unclear] Yes. Yes.
JH: I didn’t know that. It’s interesting.
BM: But that was one of the highlights of my flying training. Another highlight was I wore the King’s uniform there. The main building at Cranwell, a very long building with a big tower in the middle and a small tower on the two wings either side. We were in the cinema one night and suddenly the whole building shook. Someone said, ‘Oh, we’ve been bombed,’ but we hadn’t been bombed. An old Whitley on night flying had landed and hit one of the little towers at the end of the long building. And the building was on fire. And we all raced out of course and they said, ‘Get the pictures out.’ In the corridors there they had a lot of very valuable pictures which had been evacuated from the National Gallery in London.
JH: Some old Masters.
BM: Yes. Priceless pictures. We carted the pictures from that wing of the building and in the main entrance to the building was the King’s uniform in a glass case. Well, the glass case, we got that open and after the fire was put out we each wore the King’s uniform and saluted each other [laughs]
JH: Well deserved.
BM: But the only survivor of the crash was the rear gunner. The rest of the crew bought it. And the Whitley of course was completely burned out.
JH: Yes. So, Bill, at this stage were you earmarked as a pilot or —
BM: Yes.
JH: Could have been a navigator.
BM: You were earmarked when you went to Cranwell as a bomber pilot. Twin engine training.
JH: Yeah. So you passed all the aptitude and —
BM: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: You were heading in that direction.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And you did a bit of night flying there but you more or less did about fifty or sixty hour a day flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Instructing. And then you did about ten hours night flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which wasn’t a lot.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you didn’t know much about night flying really. And another thing at Cranwell when I was there when they were experimenting with a flare path called sodium flares. Which were a flare path for these I don’t know what sodium meant but there was a thing where you put on goggles and you could see the flares, but you had dark glasses. You couldn’t see anything else. But they never, I had a couple of hours trying to learn night flying on that.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it was abandoned because the main problem as I saw it your goggles fogged up.
JH: Yes.
BM: You were sweating with. And if you tried to land looking —
JH: Yes.
BM: Seeing the flarepath ready for, you were sweating profusely and your goggles fogged up very quickly.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate —
JH: Yes.
BM: I got passed out of that without much trouble.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I was still then in the army. Still wearing the army uniform.
JH: Really.
BM: And I had the job of marching the bloody cadet trainees around. But as a result I was, dined with the officers.
JH: Yes.
BM: And got to know the chief flying instructor very well. And he was going to get me posted on to Stirlings. They were the buzz thing then. An enormous aircraft.
JH: Yes.
BM: Just coming in to service and everyone thought that, you know the war winner. As it turned out the Stirlings were a dead loss.
JH: They were short lived weren’t they?
BM: Short lived.
JH: Yeah.
BM: They took them off operations.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Put them on glider towing and on training. And as an operational plane they had no height. I think they could only get above about twelve thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were slow and cumbersome and the losses were very heavy.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: At any rate from there I got posted to an operational training place. Fortunately it wasn’t a Stirling one.
JH: Where was that?
BM: It was a Wellington one.
JH: Where was that?
BM: At Harwell.
JH: Harwell. Yes. In Essex.
BM: About fifty miles west of London I suppose.
JH: Yes. Harwell.
BM: Very pleasant. It was a grass. No fixed firm runway. It had been a peacetime station. And very pleasant place.
JH: Yeah.
BM: A very pleasant place to live.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the countryside was very pleasant indeed. From there you crewed up. You got your crew there.
JH: You crewed. Tell me about your, your crewing up. How did that happen?
BM: Just put in a big assembly room. They put about a half dozen pilots, about a dozen front gunners, a dozen rear gunners and a dozen navigators, a dozen wireless operators. They let you sort yourselves out and you formed your own crew. I don’t know how. But it wasn’t a very efficient system I think. But I got lumbered — no I wasn’t lumbered. But we got together with a very good navigator. Had been a student, a university student. He was good. We’d got a very good wireless operator. He’d been a boy apprentice in the air force. He was the only sort of skilled member of our crew I’d say. And the two gunners. Front gunner, he was a lorry driver but very little education. But the rear gunner was a very decent English chap. He was well educated and had been working as a welder and his family were, and a reserved occupation but he’d joined up and his family were very annoyed with him for joining the air force. He’d joined up and he’d got posted as a gunner to a Polish squadron where he served for a while and then he got posted to our crowd. That was our crew. They were all English.
JH: Yes.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would I, would I be right in thinking you were the most senior?
BM: I was the most senior.
JH: In terms of age.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah
BM: Both in age. They were all about nineteen or twenty.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I was known as the old man. And we had a second pilot too but —
JH: Yeah.
BM: He was a bit dumb I’m afraid.
JH: Yes.
BM: He was the only chap in the crew that I was a bit worried about. The second pilot.
JH: Your co-pilot. Yeah.
BM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: Was he also the flight engineer in a, on a Wellington?
BM: No. That was later.
JH: Yes. Ok.
BM: That happened when you went to four engines.
JH: Right. Yeah.
BM: But —
JH: Yes.
BM: We trained there and as I say we did day flying. Day flying was very pleasant.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The syllabus was you did five day cross-country flights.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the first one you went with an instructor. The next —
JH: Yes.
BM: Four you did on your own. But you flew across to Northern Ireland, up the west of England. Up the coast.
JH: Yes.
BM: Up around the top of Scotland and down the east coast of England.
JH: Yes.
BM: When the weather was good — very pleasant.
JH: Yes.
BM: And at that early stage of the war you weren’t that well supervised. Later on you had to fly strictly according to time and had to log everything in.
JH: Yes.
BM: You couldn’t deviate or fly low as you could in the days we did.
JH: Yes.
BM: I remember I got a very, very bad sort of introduction to flying with the first cross-country. I went with an operational pilot. He’d just come off operations.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And I remember we flew across the north of Wales there at Northfleet and I remember horses bolting sheds and he said, ‘Make sure if you’re low flying,’ the advice he gave me, ‘Reel in your trailing aerial.’ The wireless op had let out a trailing aerial which was trailing behind about fifty or a hundred feet of wire with lead weights on it to keep it below.
JH: Yes.
BM: He said, ‘If you fly low and you break tiles on a roof with your trailing aerial,’ he said, ‘You’re gone,’ he said, ‘You’re court martialled.’ Low flying was a court martial offence.
JH: Yes.
BM: Quite rightly. It was completely stupid.
JH: Yes.
BM: That was a very, very bad example to give the crew.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Because I’m very sure we saw the result of that at night when you came off the day flying and had a drink with the rest of the crew who’d been flying. I remember one crew reckoned, ‘Oh our pilot flew that low over the sea he was able to stir up the water with his prop tips.’ And a couple of days later they were never heard of again. I’m very sure he hit the water. I don’t know.
JH: Yes.
BM: But that —
JH: Yeah.
BM: A very very bad example.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But quite rightly low flying was a court martial offence.
JH: Yes.
BM: And if you got court martialled and got sent to the Glasshouse it was very hard.
JH: Yeah. You —
BM: Very hard.
JH: Yes. You obviously paid heed to that.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Part of your training operations, of your training flights did you do any of these nickel raids?
BM: No. We didn’t do. We didn’t do any nickels.
JH: In Europe where they were dropping pamphlets and that kind of thing
BM: Almost did. I think the weather was bad.
JH: Yes.
BM: That’s why we didn’t get sent on it.
JH: Yes.
BM: But I remember we, we dropped live bombs at that early stage of the war.
JH: Yes.
BM: Later on you only dropped twelve and a half pound practice bombs.
JH: Yes.
BM: We dropped about half a dozen fifty pound bombs.
JH: Yes.
BM: Out in the Bristol Channel.
JH: Yes.
BM: Now, I remember well the take off with that. It was very calm day and they said, grass aerodrome and they were doubtful whether we should go.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the engines were de-rated a bit on the Wellingtons and there was a line of trees at the other end of the aerodrome. At any rate they finally said, ‘Make sure you get off, lift off early and run up your aircraft back to the hedge at the far end of the field.’ At any rate we had no trouble in getting off the ground.
JH: Yes.
BM: No trouble clearing the tree.
JH: Yes.
BM: Then we weren’t climbing. I suddenly realised I hadn’t raised the bloody undercarriage. That’s when I found out — I thought the second pilot should have picked that up.
JH: Yes.
BM: He should have known that.
JH: Ok. Yeah.
BM: And he should have been checking on everything.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But a couple of other things like that happened without, I never really trusted him.
JH: Yes. Ok. Shall we talk about how you were posted to, to Malta.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would that fit in now?
BM: Well, then we were —
JH: Yeah.
BM: Finished our training there after our night flying.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We just missed out on that thousand bomber raid. We were only half way through our night flying. And that thousand bomber, about a third of the planes there were Training Command. About four or five went from our place.
JH: Yes.
BM: Flown by an operational pilot and instructor with a pupil crew. But the pupil crew were almost finished their night flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which we hadn’t done.
JH: Yeah.
BM: So as a result of that I missed that raid.
JH: Can you remember the — I’ll note the date of that? Can you remember the year and date of that bomber, thousand bomber raid?
BM: It was [pause] April. April or May. 1942.
JH: ’42.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Very good propaganda value.
Other: Hitler’s birthday.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then when we finished our training we expected to be posted then to an operational squadron in England. But at that stage Rommel had broken through and was hammering on the gates of Cairo. And they suddenly decided to send a couple of Wellington squadrons out to Cairo. And they gave us a brand new aircraft. And that was the most pleasant flying I’ve ever had. The aircraft was a highly secret one with radar aerials all over it.
JH: Are they the Stickleback?
BM: Stickleback ones.
JH: That’s it. I’ve read about them.
BM: The Mark 8s.
JH: Mark 8.
BM: Mark 8. It was to pick up submarines. Or ships at night. We didn’t know how to operate the radar but at any rate they —
JH: Yeah.
BM: We spent twelve hours flying in the new aircraft. We flew all around England in the brand new aircraft. Very pleasant.
JH: Yes.
BM: And then we got the final word to go to Malta. And we flew down to Portreath down near the south, South West area of London there. The station right on the coast.
JH: In Cornwall.
BM: Cornwall. Yes.
JH: Cornwall. Yes.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We took off from there and they told us to keep well out to sea. Not to get anywhere near the French coast. And to come in late in the day. We took off about seven in the morning I think.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we had no trouble at all. We didn’t sight anything. We kept relatively low. About the best cruising height was about six thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which we were at. And the only danger would have been to run into a German aircraft patrol which was very very remote.
JH: Yes. Did you have any fighter escort going out?
BM: No. No. No.
JH: For a while?
BM: We just kept out to sea.
JH: Yeah. So what was the flying time to — it was —
BM: We got there about —
JH: To Malta wasn’t it?
BM: About, yeah about ten hours.
JH: Ten hours. Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We came in close to the coast of Portugal about three in the afternoon.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we hugged the coast there down to the big bay there where the Battle of Trafalgar took place.
JH: Yes.
BM: And from there suddenly we saw the Rock of Gibraltar looming out of the afternoon sun.
JH: Yes.
BM: And there we had a, a very frightening incident happened.
JH: Really?
BM: I called up the pilots to, ‘Come up and have a look and see the result of your labour,’ and called up the navigator.
JH: Yes.
BM: He came out of his office. And he came up and he was leaning over my shoulder looking out at the Rock of Gibraltar. He put his hand down and turned on the full bloody flaps. Which I didn’t realise.
JH: By mistake.
BM: Suddenly the aircraft’s speed fell away. I didn’t know what had happened. And I had to put the bloody nose down and open the throttles. And I was thinking about getting the, I thought something had gone wrong with the engines or —
JH: Yeah.
BM: I didn’t understand.
JH: Yeah. Loss of airspeed.
BM: I had to tell the wireless operator to send out an SOS. So I was getting prepared to land in the bloody sea and I don’t know how but it occurred to me that the flaps were down. I didn’t realise. I put them up.
JH: Yes. Yeah
BM: Came around and landed [laughs]
JH: Exchanged a few pleasantries no doubt.
BM: So I had a complete sweat. Yeah.
JH: So —
BM: At any rate we spent the night in Gibraltar. Very pleasant. And didn’t get any sleep that night.
JH: Yes.
BM: Didn’t get much sleep the night before in England of course either. And we spent the night there they were blasting into the rock. We were in a Nissen hut at the base of the rock and the blasting was going on all night. And they were also practicing deck landings next door.
JH: Yeah.
BM: So we didn’t get a lot of sleep that night either.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But we took off for Malta the next day at 4 o’clock. Four in the afternoon.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And another aircraft. We decided, a friend of mine had also landed and two of us flew together in formation for a while.
JH: Yes.
BM: On the way to Malta. And suddenly he turned and went back and I didn’t find out ‘til much later in the war.
JH: Yeah.
BM: What had happened. Someone had opened the hatch above the pilot which opened it. You couldn’t close it in flight.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Someone apparently had. I don’t know the second pilot had grabbed the lever there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The hatch had come open to he had to go back and start afresh. And he didn’t arrive in Malta until we’d left the next day.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I found out later the big danger with landing at Malta too was that the man in charge in Malta was, could keep you there and he could hand your aircraft over to someone else.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he could keep you there to do operations from Malta which were very unfriendly of course.
JH: Yes.
BM: So Malta was a place you didn’t want to stay at. At any rate we got to Malta about ten or eleven at night and they’d warned us that, before we left that, be careful. You’re not very far from Sicily there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which was German controlled. And the wireless operator would have to contact Malta and get a thing called a QDM. That’s a direction.
JH: Yeah.
BM: To fly to Malta. So we’d check up. It was just about a thousand miles journey.
JH: Yeah.
BM: He had to, that wireless operator had to check up that you were at Malta. And they said be careful the Germans could send you a message directing you to Sicily.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any right the flight there was very pleasant. We were flying at about six thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: And my heart sank when we were about half an hour from Malta and the whole of the sea below clouded over. And they’d told us when we got to Malta they’d put a couple of searchlights when we got there about ten or eleven at night. And when we got to Malta the whole place was clouded over and I was circling around for about five minutes ‘til I finally saw the searchlights through the cloud. And I came down and the, there was high ground in Malta. About eight hundred feet I think.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And got under the cloud at about a thousand feet and there was the runway. I came around and landed there and very gratefully. And the landing wasn’t bad which I was very much afraid of. And we taxied around. We were met by the ground crew. They were in military uniform. Not the air force blue. I thought, God we’re at the wrong [laughs] we’re at the German aerodrome but it wasn’t of course. But they were mainly interested if we had any sandwiches left which we had, and any, or and any cigarettes. I’d taken the trouble of buying a thousand cigarettes when I left to hand out when we got to Malta. And I told them that in Gibraltar, would I take more cigarettes? They said no the crew that takes those generally doesn’t get to Malta. Apparently there was a bit of a hoodoo about anyone carting stuff to Malta.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bad luck evidently.
JH: Bad luck.
BM: So, I only took about a thousand cigarettes to give to the mess when we got there.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: There’s a, we got to the air, they told us, ‘When we get there on no account,’ they said, ‘Your path on the aerodrome is at daybreak but don’t leave the aerodrome unattended err your aircraft unattended. You might find all your parachutes have disappeared if you do.’ They said, ‘We haven’t got guards on the aerodrome.’ Guards were on, they had bay, sort of shelters for the aeroplanes off the aerodrome. Horse shoe shaped construction of sandbags. Well, you taxied your aeroplane off and they pushed it into these shelters. And they said, ‘Stay with the aircraft. Get someone to stay with the aerodrome err the aeroplane until daybreak and then they’ll come out and you’ll have to taxi into a shelter.’ But navigator and I then went in to have a bit to eat at the mess there and when we got there, there was a bloody party going on. Incredible thing. And all the pilots and we were welcomed in because we’d just arrived in our flying suits. They came around. The pilots were all fighter pilots and the reason they were there was a crew in a Beaufort that day had been shot down and been taken prisoner on a Greek island and it had been there for about a week and the Germans, an Italian seaplane called to pick them up to fly them back to Italy. And when they were in the air the three people from, the captives overcame the bloody guards in the aeroplane and made it fly to Malta. And we saw it in the harbour the next day. A float plane. And that was the party.
JH: What a story.
BM: Yeah. I think the pilot, the captive pilot was a South African. And there was an Australian among them. And there were two or three others. But they were having this party. And the story goes with one of them said, evidently when they were captives the food there was much better at Malta. One said, ‘The food there was good. We must do this again.’
JH: Yeah. I like that.
BM: But we saw the plane the next day.
JH: Yeah.
BM: In the harbour there. But it was pure bloody Hollywood. The whole thing.
JH: Yeah. So, what, what was it like on, on Malta? Was Malta, was the feeling of this is an outpost. Heavily defended.
BM: Yeah. We were only there. We stayed the night then. We went back to the aeroplane and slept in it. In the plane. At daybreak then taxied in to the shelter.
JH: Because you were heading for Egypt wasn’t it?
BM: We were heading for Egypt.
JH: Yes.
BM: We were only there a stop off. For a refuel stop. So they came and collected us at daybreak and very foolishly we spent the bloody day bloody sightseeing around the Malta instead of having a sleep.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bloody crazy.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it was too good an opportunity. We actually got a taxi there which was a horse drawn vehicle. And there were two or three air raids during the day. You could hear the machine guns going up in the air and this fellow driving around in this horse drawn taxi. But at any rate we reported back to the aerodrome about 4 o’clock and they briefed us then and said, ‘Well, the weather’s good. Nothing to worry about there. The only danger is units of the Italian fleet might be somewhere on your route when you fly from here to Cairo.’ And it was just as we get a thousand miles from Cairo, a thousand from Gib. At any rate we, they said come back, and just get aboard the aircraft and taxi it out.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Wait at the end of the runway. Just before dark. And on, if there’s an air raid comes along get off the ground straight away but otherwise stand by waiting there. And if you see us flash a green get on the runway and take off straight away. We sat on the plane there and suddenly three people turned up and said, ‘We’re your passengers.’ Two of them were two Dutch seamen.
JH: Yes.
BM: And a lieutenant from submarines which were based in Malta.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were passengers to go back with us to Cairo.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate we were sitting there waiting and suddenly the bloody air raid siren went. And people in the control place flashed green at us to get going and —
JH: And you were on the tarmac.
BM: I was waiting at the edge of the, the edge of the runway there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And I taxied on. At that moment two Beaufighters which had been in sandbagged shelters nearby they came out at high speed and turned on to the runway, took off and climbed at about forty five degrees
JH: Yeah.
BM: They were night fighters apparently. But any rate I got on the runway and I thought I’d do a thing that I tried to, I opened up too quickly and if you’re not careful you swing on take-off.
JH: Yeah.
BM: You’ve got to often open one throttle before the others.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I swung right off the bloody runway and I had to turn back, taxi back and start again. In the meantime the fellow was flashing a green light at me to get going. I got off the next time without any trouble. We flew out to sea. They said, ‘Fly out to sea at five hundred feet before you set course.’ You could see that air raid in progress. Quite a sight. Cannons firing and searchlights and —
JH: Yes.
BM: Oh dear.
JH: What were they targeting? The Germans.
BM: We then set course for Malta and the main problem was keeping awake.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And part of the time I had the second pilot flying. Him I was, I didn’t trust him much. So I had to try and stay awake. I remember standing up a lot of the time. And with hindsight what I should have done, bloody crazy was called up this flight lieutenant fellow to stand by to see we didn’t go to sleep.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We had a bit of a scare once when we, there was a bit of moon and there was some shadows on the ocean. We thought this is the Italian fleet.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it wasn’t.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then we didn’t have, there was no wind apparently the whole journey. I think the navigator said he was on the one course the whole way.
JH: Yes. So that air space between Malta and Egypt. Was that controlled by the Germans to a large extent?
BM: Yes. It was. The Italians.
JH: Yeah. The Italians. Yeah.
BM: The Italian fleet were in charge more or less. But they weren’t. It wasn’t the Italian fleet. They were knocked out largely by the Swordfish aircraft in that air raid.
JH: Yes.
BM: They knocked out half the bloody Italian fleet. I’ve forgotten the name of the place. The Italian port they raided. But that was the old Swordfish from an aircraft carrier. At any rate nothing happened then until we were about just at daybreak. We were about a hundred miles from Cairo and I spotted a submarine on the ocean ahead of us. You could see it in the path of light from the sun which was just appearing then and I suddenly thought it might be a bloody submarine —
JH: Friendly or otherwise.
BM: In trouble or something. It shouldn’t be on the surface. Why was it on the surface? And as we dropped near it started flashing a very fast Morse code as the Naval people did then. Flashing a message at us. I couldn’t, it was too fast for me so I called the wireless operator up, ‘Better come up and read their message they’re flashing.’ And I had visions of this crippled submarine wanting help and I thought well we’ll send a distress beacon. Tell them they’re here. But the message they sent us was, ‘Good morning.’ [laughs] From that we went on and landed in Cairo. And at that stage I was completely half drunk with fatigue. I remember when I got out of the aircraft I sat down on the ground and went to sleep. I woke up and on the ground you see beside me a fellow with a revolver around his waist, a cowboy hat on and flying boots on. It was an American fighter pilot who’d been ferrying an aircraft across Africa from the west coast of Africa. That’s the only way they got aircraft there. They took it by plane to the west of Africa then.
JH: Yes.
BM: And they flew them across Africa.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he’d flown a, I think a, oh a fighter plane across. They flew across in formation.
JH: Yes.
BM: With an escort. But any rate from there we got down to. They woke me up and said, ‘Would you fly the aircraft down to the Suez Canal,’ which very foolishly I said yes. And I took off again and flew down to, down to the squadron. 148 Squadron. Based on the Canal.
JH: Yes.
BM: And that’s where we began operations.
JH: 104
BM: No. 148.
JH: Oh 148.
BM: 148.
JH: Yeah. Ok. Yeah. 148.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. So that’s, that’s where you started off.
BM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And the target then was Tobruk. Tobruk was the only sort of port on the African coast which was giving supplies to the Germans who were on the outskirts of Cairo by then. At Alemein. And we were, our main target was Tobruk.
JH: Yes
BM: So far as they —
JH: Which was in German hands at that time
BM: The Germans were —
JH: Yeah
BM: Bringing in to Tobruk. Yeah.
JH: Yes. Yes. So you were targeting the supply ships coming in.
BM: Coming into Tobruk. Yeah.
JH: All the defences.
BM: The war was there too.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yes.
BM: To begin with I think we did about eight trips to Tobruk.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which was quite a distance. It was about six or seven hours flight.
JH: So your, tell me about your first operation. Was that one of these Tobruk raids?
BM: Yes. I remember that very well. Went as a second pilot to an experienced pilot. Flight Lieutenant Moore was our pilot.
JH: Yeah. You were the dickie.
BM: An experienced pilot.
JH: You say the dickie is it? You were the dickie.
BM: Yeah. I was second pilot. Yes.
JH: Yes. Ok.
BM: Very pleasant. You had no responsibility. You just sat there and watched everything. And when we got to Tobruk they had quite a few — they had about a dozen anti-aircraft guns there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which started firing at you when you got near there.
JH: Bill, tell me was this a daylight raid or night raid.
BM: Night raid. All night.
JH: All night.
BM: All night.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: At any rate I remember he was the fella who, he did the bombing run. The navigator was the bomb aimer then in those days. Navigator bomb aimer. He was down in the bomb bay to drop the bombs but the, this second, this instructor pilot he directed the run in. You know, ‘Right. Right. Left. Left. Centre.’ And then he said to the bomb aimer —
[telephone ringing]
BM: Hello. Hello. Hello. Just hold on a minute. Just tell them it’s my phone. See what they want. I can’t. I’ve got hearing aids in.
JH: Oh. Hello. This is John Horsburgh here. I’m actually interviewing Bill at the moment. Can I take a message? Yes. Yes. I’m interviewing him now. Yeah. Can I take your number and he’ll call you back? [delete] ok I’ll get, I’ll get Mr McRae to call you back.
BM: Tell him I’ll call him back
JH: Ok. Thank you, Justin.
BM: Thanks.
JH: We were, we were talking about your first operation.
BM: My first bombing run.
JH: Yeah. Your first bombing run. Yeah
BM: He called up the pilot and said, ‘I’ve done this trip three or four few times. Let me. Let me drop the bombs.’ So instead of letting the bloody navigator direct us onto the target he put the plane into a dive and roared across Tobruk at high speed, pulled the bomb toggle and dropped all the bombs in one thing.
JH: The whole lot. The whole string.
BM: The whole lot. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which was completely against all our instruction in training. And that sort of thing you never thought of doing. But at any rate when we got back we got debriefed at the debriefing we didn’t mention this. Had we done so he might have been in big trouble I think.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: But you were graded LMF if you did that sort of thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: But the navigator was very upset about it. So was I [laughs] But that was my first bombing. I did another trip with another crew another night but they did the right thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: We got caught in the searchlights that night too which was very unpleasant. But that was my first experience of a bombing raid. Which we didn’t report to the authorities.
JH: Just between you and I this is [laughs] Ok.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yes.
BM: Yeah. Don’t mention it [laughs]
JH: No. We won’t [laughs] Tell me about the first operation when you were actually in control of the plane on the bomb run.
[phone ringing]
JH: Shall I? Hello, Bill McRae’s phone. John Horsborough. I’m actually interviewing Bill at the moment. Yeah. Yes. Will do. Ok. Righto. Ok. Bye.
BM: Who’s that?
JH: Jeannie.
BM: Oh right.
JH: Coffee tomorrow.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Anyway, back to your first operation. You’re in control.
BM: Oh yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember that quite well because we were based on the Suez Canal and one of the things you had to be careful of you could see a ship almost at the end of the runway going across the desert. The Canal was at the far end of the runway. And you’d just see a ship there sailing across the desert. You had to be careful taking off that there weren’t any ships going through the canal because when you took off you didn’t get any height. You’d be flying for about two or three miles I’d say. You climbed very slowly. And you climbed towards, turned towards Tobruk and you climbed up as high as you could get which in those with those, planes it was about ten or twelve thousand feet. And I remember we, getting up along the coast of North Africa the navigator went down below to check the position, map reading the coast and he called me up and said, ‘Mac,’ he said, ‘We’re flying over a convoy. There are balloons down below.’ I said, ‘This is bloody crazy. There are no balloons here.’ I banked around and had a look and there were four things that looked like balloons. They were puffs of anti-aircraft fire.
JH: Heading your way.
BM: They were firing at us but about a thousand feet below us [laughs] So we immediately changed course. At any rate the, quite a lot of flak. Quite a lot of searchlights at Tobruk. The thing I remember about the searchlights they would all go out and there would be one would suddenly come on alone. A blue searchlight. And about five seconds later all the searchlights would concentrate on one plane and they’d hold that plane for quite a while.
JH: It’s coning it isn’t it? Yeah.
BM: But it didn’t come on to us. We rode it out. Do a normal bombing run. And you took photographs when you dropped your bombs too.
JH: Yes.
BM: You held course for about, I think ten or fifteen seconds till the bombs exploded and the camera took a photograph of where your bombs went.
JH: Yes.
BM: But we were bombing the wharves mainly.
JH: Yes.
BM: I don’t know whether. I don’t know whether there was anything there to bomb really.
JH: I think you told me. I think it was you told me you actually took part in the battle of El Alemein.
BM: Yes.
JH: Targeting German supply ships.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would that be right?
BM: Well, after we were on the Canal we moved up to Kilo Forty which was forty kilos on the road from Cairo to Alexandria. Just a desert aerodrome. And from there we more or less supported the army.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bombing German airfields behind the lines.
JH: Yes.
BM: And bombing army targets which were marked by aircraft from Alexandria. Fleet Air Arm aircraft dropping flares. I don’t know how they got they got in on the act.
JH: Yes.
BM: But they’d dropped flares for us to bomb on.
JH: Yes.
BM: We did half a dozen trips on that before El Alemein.
JH: Yes.
BM: And on El Alemein night we did two bombing runs. One at about eleven at night and one about two in the morning because we were not that far from the battle front. You could hear the barrage start up at about 10 o’clock. On the 23rd of October I think it was.
JH: It’s —
BM: After El Alemein of course old Montgomery was successful but I always thought he, he was too cautious by half because he knew all the German plans because Rommel had been sending messages back to Hitler. He was short of petrol. He was short of reinforcements and pleading with Hitler to send reinforcements by way of aircraft or I think the Germans were supplying their fighters, called JU52s bringing aircraft fuel in. That’s how short of fuel they were.
JH: Yes.
BM: But Hitler of course said, ‘Don’t surrender. Fight to the last man.’ But Rommel fortunately decided that was bloody silly because he got quite a few Germans out of Africa. He retreated. Very skilfully retreated. And I think Montgomery should have thrown everything at the Germans because he had a couple of people from that Enigma machine with him relaying messages that Rommel was sending to Hitler. How desperate he was for supplies.
JH: Yes.
BM: And how desperate he was to sort of get reinforcements. But Rommel didn’t move. He had sort of absolute overpowering authority.
JH: Yes.
BM: We had about seven to one air superiority.
JH: Yes
BM: I reckon Rommel should have thrown us during the daytime. He could have had about three or four to one fighter superiority and he had about three to one, he had about seven to one bomber superiority.
JH: So, that was the feeling among the squadron that the 8th Army didn’t follow through enough.
BM: Yes. I reckon he should have. He should have thrown everything into the battle.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he would have knocked Rommel out and he would have captured an awful lot of Germans.
JH: Yes.
BM: Anyway, he was successful so —
JH: Yes. I, I read somewhere that the Desert Air Force got involved in this concept of close air support. The actual air force involving with the infantry. In fact they were forward.
BM: Ah yes.
JH: Forward scouts passing on information to, to the air force.
BM: Yeah.
JH: And I read that the desert was where the, this close air support was really initiated.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Did you have any experience of that?
BM: No. I was a bit disappointed there. I thought we should have been kept in touch with what was going on with the army. We never were.
JH: Yeah That’s interesting with your army background.
BM: I think —
JH: Artillery background.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I thought there was a bit of, probably ill feeling between the air force and the army. I don’t know. I could be wrong there. But they sort of fought their own war as it were.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate we followed up the army there when the army retreated. The Germans retreated. We followed up and we got as far as Tobruk. And we were dropping bombs on the retreating Germans and then we suddenly got a move to. I think — six planes will proceed forthwith to Halfway House. By that stage we were up behind Tobruk.
JH: So you were leap frogging.
BM: Leap frogging. Yes
JH: The base as, as the front moved
BM: When the Germans were retreating we were following. Yeah.
JH: Westwards. Yeah.
BM: And there wasn’t, when the message came to have six planes would proceed to Halfway House no one knew and I had to send a message back to find Halfway House from Malta. This was about a thousand miles from Gibraltar and a thousand miles from Cairo. It was known to the Navy as Halfway House.
JH: Yes.
BM: So the middle of the afternoon we got the message we were, had to take off at dark with two ground, two supplies of ground crew. Half a dozen ground crew staff.
JH: Yes.
BM: As passengers. So we, immediately we were headed for Malta.
JH: And how long were you based in Malta then?
BM: Well, it took about four hours to get there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember well when we were nearing Malta there was a bloody line of lights appeared.
JH: Yes.
BM: I thought, God, we’ve gone to Italy or Sicily or somewhere. I called up the wireless, I said get an QDM. That’s a course to steer [unclear] and it was correct. We were. A convoy had gotten in a couple of ships and all the lights were on on the wharves. That’s the lights we were seeing. And we got to Malta and one of our planes landing hit a, one of the sand bagged bays near the beginning of the runway and went up in flames. We landed with this bloody thing flaming beside us. And we taxied in and found out that I think the pilot got out of it, I think. I think he lost his legs. But he was about the only one that survived, I think. But at any rate we operated from Malta then for a couple of months. That was early December then.
JH: Yes.
BM: 1942
JH: And were you operating from Malta as far as Sicily from there?
BM: Yes. Sicily was, Sicily was a main target. And North Africa. Retreating Germans. Tripoli.
JH: Yes.
BM: And Sfax and Sous. They were in Tunisia.
JH: Yes.
BM: The Germans were retreating there.
JH: Yes.
BM: Sending ships to pick them up. Yeah.
JH: Yes. So, yeah so Tunisia I believe you were on some important raids to Tunisia and Palermo. Is that correct?
BM: That’s correct. Yes, yeah.
JH: Yes. Do you want to mention a couple of those?
BM: Yes. I remember Palermo quite well because we didn’t take off at a scheduled time. Take off was delayed because there was bad weather and the trouble at Malta they had no weather reporting process so they could never predict the weather. You know the weather was a bit doubtful. Anyway we took off. We found the target all right. I was amazed at the, the, not much flak went up as we were coming out. Normally —
JH: Yeah.
BM: When you come up to a target. You see the guns firing.
JH: Yes.
BM: But there were no guns firing as we got up to the target.
JH: Yeah.
BM: When they started shooting. And we found out later there were only two aircraft got there. The rest got a recall. The others were all recalled because of bad weather. So we were the only two aircraft that got to the target.
JH: You didn’t get the message.
BM: We didn’t get the message. No [laughs] At any rate we were flying back we had trouble with the bad weather getting back.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember that well. Went into a storm or something.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Because they couldn’t forecast the weather then.
JH: Yeah.
BM: That was the trouble. And apparently the weather was very changeable because the Alps weather and the desert weather meet —
JH: Yes.
BM: Over the Mediterranean there.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you got very very severe turbulence.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you got a lot of static electricity.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Laying on the guns.
JH: Really?
BM: Yeah. Well, we survived Malta.
JH: Yes. Was it that raid to Palermo, I think you told me before both engines cut out for some reason. You lost your engines.
BM: Ah yes. Yes. Yeah.
JH: What happened there?
BM: There we were, actually it was another raid on Sicily that we had trouble with. Engine trouble. Had a thing with when we were bombing Sicily it was after we got, we came back to Cairo and they gave us one last raid. We suddenly got a message in Cairo. Take off at midnight. Return to Cairo. Which we did. And when we were there I found I’d done my tour of operations but a couple of the crew hadn’t finished and needed one more raid. And we were a bit lucky because we got the last raid was dropping supplies to people in Crete. At the western end of Crete a lot of people had escaped during the German invasion and there was a rebel force there fighting the Germans in the mountains. Very mountainous country and they came out at mid-day and loaded our aircraft with big metal containers about six feet long in the bomb bay and gave us a place to drop them at the western end of Crete. And we took off about dusk and got to Crete and they also gave us bundles of newspapers and said, ‘When you’ve dropped the bombs fly to the other side of Crete. The northern side where all the towns are.’ There were no towns in the western end.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It’s all mountainous, ‘And drop out these newspapers.’ Propaganda. German propaganda. Against the Germans for the Cretian, the Cretian people. At any rate we dropped the bombs, flew around Crete and flying along the northern side couldn’t see any land for a while and it was there that we found that we’d gone too far north.
JH: Yes.
BM: We saw a lot of bloody islands below and we knew that Crete was somewhere to the south so we went there and when we suddenly hit Crete they started firing guns at us. So you can imagine the newspapers were delivered very rapidly [laughs]
JH: Yeah.
BM: And we climbed straight away to ten thousand feet.
JH: Yeah.
BM: There were mountains in Crete up to eight thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: At the western end. But we dropped the newspapers and went home. And that was our last operation.
JH: Yes. So at that stage it was the operations were coming to an end there. Did you have any idea what lay ahead of, of you and your crew? Was it going back to the UK or —
BM: No. We didn’t know.
JH: Or Italy.
BM: We went back and sat in Cairo for a couple of weeks.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And they suddenly told us to get aboard an aircraft and flew us down to Khartoum. Flying boat. And then we got another DC3 from there across the whole of Africa to the west coast of Africa.
JH: So where were you going? What was the plan?
BM: Back to England.
JH: Back to England.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Ok. Yeah.
BM: We got to —
JH: Yeah
BM: I think Takoradi, that was the place on the west coast of Africa. We sat there for about a week.
JH: That’s in Ghana I think.
BM: It was a small.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Coastal vehicle took us up to Freetown which is a main port in West Africa there.
JH: Yes.
BM: Where we got aboard [pause] what was the name of the boat? The Mauritania. An ocean liner.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bound for Liverpool. We went back unescorted. It went at high speed.
JH: Yes.
BM: It went about thirty eight knots I think. And went out in to the mid-Atlantic.
JH: With a convoy? Or —
BM: No. Alone.
JH: Solo.
BM: Just travelling at high speed. And altering course apparently every five minutes. Yeah. Zig-zagging.
JH: Zig-zagging.
BM: Went to Liverpool. So, and from there got a plane back to London.
JH: Yes. And some well-earned leave. Did you have any leave time?
BM: Went on leave there. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. And from there got posted. Got a posting on to Training Command up in Lossiemouth. To an Operational Training Unit to instruct bomber crews.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I sat there until the, more or less the end of the war instructing people.
JH: What — is this 1944?
BM: This would be —
JH: Coming into Lossiemouth.
BM: 1943.
JH: 1943.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It was there I found that I’d been awarded a DFC for flying in Africa and Alemein and so on.
JH: So you completed a tour.
BM: Completed a tour.
JH: And the DFC.
BM: DFC. Yes
JH: Yeah. Yeah. And your rank at that stage. Flight.
BM: I was a flight lieutenant.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: By that stage.
JH: Yes. So —
BM: And then, I was instructing there. I got posted down to the Empire Central Flying School at Hullavington in England.
JH: At where? Sorry?
BM: Empire Central Flying School.
JH: Yes.
BM: At Hullavington. Which was the main training place for bomber crews. I got trained to instruct bomber crews there. Then I went back and got on very well with the man in charge of the place at Lossiemouth wasn’t it?
JH: Yes.
BM: The instructing place. And he was the man I think that got me the Air Force Cross. I got an Air Force Cross for my instructing.
JH: Oh really. Yeah.
BM: We were the operational training instructing French crews.
JH: Yes.
BM: And as a result of that I got the French Legion d’honneur from there.
JH: Yes. I was there. I saw you. I was there when you were awarded.
BM: I tell the story how I got the AFC. When we were at Lossiemouth a bit of a surf would come in there at the right time of year. In Midsummer. The water was reasonably warm but we boys would get down for a swim in the river like this here.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there’s a couple of reefs nearby. And I was able to catch a few waves. I’m no expert surfer but I was outstanding apparently. There were three or four English blokes. I was the talk of bloody the station, ‘You should have seen him.’ I could do a slow roll on a wave as it was coming. I could do a roll and come down right side up.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But they thought this was incredible. And the news of this got to the group captain in charge of the place and he said, ‘Well I believe that the reefs along the shore there, I believe there are lobsters there which are ready to be caught and no one has been near the place for years because mines had been laid thereabouts.’ He said, ‘We’ll go along one afternoon and might be able to get a lobster.’ So a crowd of us went along. The group captain in his car with three other fellas and myself wading around these reefs. And I was the only one that caught a bloody lobster. I moved down and threw it up on the shore. And after we got out and were drying ourselves the boys said, ‘What do you do with a lobster?’ We’ll cook it —? I said, ‘Oh no.’ I knew the group captain lived off the station. I said, ‘You have it sir.’ And the boys said, ‘You’ll get on. You’ll get on.’ And I reckon that’s how I might have got my bloody AFC [laughs]
JH: How you got your gong. Yeah. Well, what a change from operations.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Being up there.
BM: Yes.
JH: So, what happened to the rest of the crew Bill?
BM: Eh
JH: What happened to the rest of your crew?
BM: The rest of the crew. I kept in touch with the navigator. He got posted up instructing to Lossiemouth too. Lossiemouth there were three stations there. They had the main station and there were two satellite stations. I was in charge of one of the satellite stations.
JH: Yes.
BM: For a while.
JH: Yes.
BM: He was with the main station instructing other navigators.
JH: Yes.
BM: And by that time in England Gee, an operational aid had come into being.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which had more or less done away with the old plotting thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: Navigators could get a fix by operating a Gee set. Well, he was instructing on that.
JH: Yes. And was it Lancasters phasing in?
BM: No. No.
JH: And the Wellingtons phasing out at that stage?
BM: Still Wellingtons.
JH: Still Wellingtons.
BM: After they’d finished their training with us crews were posted down to England to a Conversion Unit.
JH: Conversion.
BM: On four engines.
JH: Yes.
BM: Where they spent about twelve hours I think.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there they would pick up a mid-upper gunner and an engineer.
JH: Crew. A crew of seven. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. They had a four engine aircraft then.
JH: Yeah
BM: A four engine bomber. But with us they were still on twin engines. Which was a bit not the base.
JH: Yes. Yes. So that was, that was for you an enjoyable period.
BM: No. It wasn’t enjoyable.
JH: Or not. Or were you wanting to get back into action?
BM: It was really trying, instructing. You didn’t get a lot of sleep. You were either instructing or you were in charge of night flying. And I’ve got a good after dinner story when instructing the French. The early French were really magnificent pilots. They’d been in the French Air Force.
JH: Yes.
BM: One of them in particular had been flying with the French civil lines. And they at that stage had an airline over to, I think West Africa where they landed somewhere in mid-Atlantic. Well, one of the pilots they were training had been on that cross bloody Atlantic flight. But you couldn’t teach him anything of course. I was very —
JH: So he knew a bit about navigation obviously.
BM: I was very sort of hesitant about correcting him. He could have taught me a lot. I’m sure of that.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But the French crews. I remember the, there was an intelligence officer at every station.
JH: Yes.
BM: And there was a head of intelligence man. I suppose based at Edinburgh who would tour around visiting the stations and he came around to visit our stations. And French crews on the station would receive every couple of weeks a cask of wine sent up by General de Gaulle from London which could be issued gratis to the French aircrews. At any rate this head navigation intelligence man came visiting us and called in for lunch. And he was a First World War man. Allegedly related to the Queen. First World War medals. He liked his whisky which we gave him for lunch.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And the bloody French crews [unclear] insisted he have some French wine too. After dinner you went and got your own coffee at the coffee thing at the entrance and he was getting his cup of coffee and he tripped over and fell and sat on the coffee cup. And he had to have half a dozen stitches put in his backside
Other: Dear. Dinnertime.
BM: It’s time. I’d better not have dinner.
Other: You don’t want to go down for dinner?
BM: No. I won’t worry about it.
JH: Bill, we can, we can probably start winding it up a bit and if so you can have your dinner.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: Would you —
Other: You can have [unclear] as well I think.
BM: Give me five minutes.
Other: Ok darling.
BM: Can I have five minutes?
Other: Yeah darling.
JH: Yes. Ok.
Other: Sure.
JH: Yeah.
BM: This man’s interviewing me. How I won the war [laughs]
Other: Yeah darling. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. But you read about the training squadrons. There were quite a few casualties.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: Did you have experience of that at Lossiemouth?
BM: Oh yeah. We had the, we had the odd crash.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we found in the, at the station there we were the people who found that something was happening with the Wellingtons. They were developing cracks in the main spar. And we had three mysterious crashes. Now remember I was the man who discovered one of the French aircrews who crashed when they, just after they left at night. They left the east coast of Scotland and disappeared. I found the crash the next day. Cracks developed in the main spar due to heavy landings. And they were all ex-operational aircraft which in avoiding fighters and anti-aircraft fire they’d far exceed authorised speed limits. Every aircraft had a mark on the altimeter not to exceed. Well —
JH: Yeah.
BM: You’d bloody well exceed that if you got into trouble
JH: Yeah.
BM: Instead going down at three hundred miles an hour they’d be going down at three fifty and that cracked the main spar.
JH: Yes.
BM: And they developed with heavy landings. And when the training crews were doing fighter affiliation you taught them to do very steep manoeuvres.
JH: Yes.
BM: To avoid fighters. You had an aircraft acting as a fighter chasing you. That was part of your training. And we had a couple of mysterious crashes. There was nothing left when they hit the ground. But one fell into the sea and they were able to get the wreckage.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there they discovered the cracks. I think that was one of the main reasons —
JH: Yeah.
BM: That I got a bit of a notoriety through one of the people who was discovered this crack. They grounded the Wellingtons for two or three days and strengthened the main spars.
JH: That sounds like quite a breakthrough finding that problem.
BM: Yes. It was. Yes.
JH: No doubt saved no end of lives.
BM: That would have been the reason. Heavy landings by pupils.
JH: Yes.
BM: And giving them this manoeuvre. The corkscrew manoeuvre we taught them.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: But after that that more or less ended my career.
JH: Yes. So, just, just to finish off. What about you were there for VE day in the UK.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Then you went back to the bank?
BM: Yeah.
JH: Or did you continue with the air force after the war for a while.
BM: I continued for about six months.
JH: Yes.
BM: The bank had no staff.
JH: Yes.
BM: They all waited to be called up.
JH: Yes.
BM: As a result they didn’t get the — I got released straight away.
JH: Yes.
BM: Having joined early. But the bank staff — we had no bloody staff
JH: Yes.
BM: And I went. I was working all sorts of bloody hours.
JH: Yes.
BM: 10 o’clock at night. I was one of the few bloody staff in London office.
JH: My father, after the war left, left the RAF. In to Barclays working long hours like you did.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: But there were no staff.
BM: That’s right.
JH: Now, what about family? Family life.
BM: I married my wife halfway through the war.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: I didn’t shoot my line about how I got my DFC. In Edinburgh.
JH: Yes.
BM: I went along to get it at the Holyrood House.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The palace there, with the [pause] And when I went I asked the girl at the desk, ‘How do I get to the Palace?’ She said, ‘You can catch a tram.’ A tram or — I got a tram and the girl came up and said, ‘There’s the Palace sir.’ It was a picture show. That’s my afternoon story.
JH: Yes.
BM: How I got my medal.
JH: Ok.
BM: I went back to Holyrood and got my medal.
JH: Yes.
BM: And that was it.
JH: Yes. Yeah. So, so you continue with the bank.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Until you retired. Did you retire?
BM: Till I retired. I retired early.
JH: Yes.
BM: Banking never pleased me anymore.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: I retired as soon as I could. Aged fifty five.
JH: Yeah. Now, you could have stayed in the UK but what brought you back here?
BM: I think mainly [pause] I don’t know really. I had to retire somewhere.
JH: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And this was one of the good places to retire.
JH: Yes. Yeah. Did you go back to New England or you came back to Sydney?
BM: I came back to Sydney.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: And I went around. I finished up managing all of Sydney.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I retired from there more or less.
JH: Yes. Yeah. And I know you’ve kept in touch with veterans. You’re involved in the —
BM: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JH: Bomber Command Association and I saw you in London.
BM: Yeah.
JH: For the opening of the Memorial by the Queen.
BM: That’s right.
JH: That very hot day. You remember.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: And I’ve seen you at lots of functions.
BM: But I’m not a great medal man. I don’t believe in medals. I’ve got a couple of medals but I think I’ve always said people who got medals, should have got them are no longer with us.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I knew, during my training at Lossiemouth I knew there, fellow pilots, two VCs, very well.
JH: Yes.
BM: They went back on their second tour. Bazalgette and Palmer.
JH: Yes.
BM: Both won VCs. Posthumous of course.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: But I, when I went to London for the 2012 thing I met Sir Peter Squire.
JH: Yes.
BM: I’ve got his picture over there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Have a look at it. And that —
JH: Yeah.
BM: And that friend advising about the Legion d’honneur. I had a long talk with him when I met him at the meeting after the celebration for the monument thing. And someone wrote him a letter. I had a long talk to him. And I flattered myself he might have remembered me. I told a friend, they sent him a message I got a Legion d’Honneur and he wrote me a response. Have a look at his picture and the letter he wrote me over there.
JH: I’ll have a look afterwards.
BM: Yeah. Have a look.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: At any rate don’t mention my medals [laughs]
JH: Well, Bill —
BM: I told, I think I must have struck a sympathetic ear because he got the same medals as I have.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he got his through Falklands. His DFC. And I think he had a bit of, he thought a bloody World War Two bomber pilot was you know big time.
JH: Yes.
BM: I think he had a bit of an inferiority about his Falklands DFC.
JH: Yes.
BM: I don’t know. But I think that’s why we had a very very long talk.
JH: Yes.
BM: About — and he agreed with me about the medals.
JH: Yes.
BM: I said well I don’t know why they worried about it. I just went where I was told.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Nothing very special about it. We did what we had to do.
JH: Yes.
BM: But no reason to give us medals. And the fellas who should have got them of course got killed.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I don’t like capitalising on that.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate see the letter he wrote me at the back.
JH: I’m going to have a look at that.
BM: I was quite, quite frazzled by it. Quite frazzled.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I think it might have been he might have remembered. I don’t know. But he would have met thousands of people.
JH: Bill —
BM: He was a very friendly gentleman.
JH: Yes.
BM: As I say we sort of had empathy together.
JH: I’ll have a look at that.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Bill, why don’t we wind it up. Thank you very much for the time and I feel really privileged to be the one interviewing you today. It’s a great story. It really is.
BM: Oh no.
JH: It is a good story. And so —
BM: Sheer luck.
JH: Thank you very much.
BM: Bomber Command was luck.
JH: Yes.
BM: I realised early on you were expendable. You realised that. After training you were very keen.
JH: Yes.
BM: Training you wanted to dash into it. When you got into it you realised you were bloody well expendable. You’ve only got someone to say, ‘There’s the target. Go for it.’ And you were gone.
JH: But your airspeed lesson. Dive bombing the church graveyard probably stood you in good stead.
BM: Training it did. You taught people that. Taught it.
JH: Thank you very much, Bill.
BM: Oh no. My pleasure. Sorry to have bored you.
JH: Not at all.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Macrae
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Horsburgh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AMacraeWM161116
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:26:12 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
British Army
Description
An account of the resource
Bill McRae’s earliest memories were of the end of the First World War. He worked for a major bank during the Depression and was fortunate to be amongst a group of Australians who were sent to work in London. He volunteered at Australia House and was posted to the British Army for officer training during the summer of 1940. He later transferred to the RAF and after training as a pilot at RAF Cranwell was posted on to Malta and Cairo for the Middle East campaign. He later returned to the UK as an instructor at RAF Lossiemouth.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
New South Wales
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Greece
Greece--Crete
Libya
Libya--Tobruk
Italy
Italy--Sicily
Malta
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
148 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Flying Training School
Gee
Initial Training Wing
Magister
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Cranwell
RAF Harwell
RAF Lossiemouth
searchlight
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/104/10708/LEdwardsED1236492v1.1.pdf
07b0a2fcf163a00e5cf50a0b98dfd28b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Edwards, Ellis
E D Edwards
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. The collection concerns Sergeant Ellis Drury Edwards (1236492 Royal Air Force) and consists of his logbook, memorial booklet and four letters. Ellis Edwards was a bomb aimer with 149 Squadron and flew operations from RAF Lakenheath. He was killed when his Halifax crashed on an operation to Berlin 30 March 1943. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Pauline Harkett and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br />Additional information on Ellis Edwards is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/208271/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Edwards, ED
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ellis Edwards’ South African Air Force observers or air gunners log book
Description
An account of the resource
South African Air Force observers or air gunners log book for Ellis Edwards, bomb aimer, covering the period from 9 February 1942 to 29 March 1943 when he was missing in action on an operation to Berlin. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at SAAF Port Elizabeth, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Stradishall and RAF Lakenheath. Aircraft flown in were, Blenheim, Battle, Anson, Oxford, Wellington and Stirling. He flew a total of 11 night operations with 149 squadron. Targets were, Lorient, Wilhelmshaven, Hamburg, Essen, Bordeaux, Stuttgart and Berlin. <span>His pilot on operations was</span><span> </span>Pilot Officer Fulton.
Creator
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Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LEdwardsED1236492v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
South Africa
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Suffolk
France--Lorient
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Scotland--Lossiemouth
South Africa--Port Elizabeth
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
149 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Battle
Blenheim
bomb aimer
Heavy Conversion Unit
killed in action
mine laying
missing in action
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Stradishall
Stirling
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/772/9292/PHarveyW1801.2.jpg
d03966fa4a55004101192dec15f56f21
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/772/9292/AHarveyW180802.2.mp3
64551cc443dc706cf3cc4a1e5b715862
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harvey, Bill
William Harvey
W Harvey
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant William 'Bill' Harvey (1922 = 2023, 1595171 Royal Air Force) and ten photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 640 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by William Harvey and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Harvey, W
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: So, this is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Bill Harvey today who was an air gunner with 640 Squadron and we’re interviewing for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. We’re at Bill’s home and it’s the 2nd of August 2018. So first of all thank you Bill for agreeing to talk to me today. So Bill do you want to tell me a little about your time before you joined the RAF?
BH: Well, if I go back to when I was six or seven was the first time I saw an aeroplane. It was a biplane. The aeroplane circus came to Broomhill which were two mile off my home and I were really interested. From then when I was fourteen I started working in mines. Mining. It were being in the mining district there were no other sort of work. And when I got to be sixteen I was put on, the war were beginning to look like coming in 1938 and I was put on regular nights under the mine looking after all the machinery. And that wasn’t nice for a lad at sixteen to be on the nights and sometimes I had to work weekends as well. Then when the war did break out I was seventeen. When I got to be eighteen I went to join up and they wouldn’t let me join because I were a miner. They told me no. Come back when I were twenty one. So when I became twenty one I was still on regular nights Darfield main colliery. And I actually made a friend, an office lad, an underground office lad and he were getting a bit fed up. [Irving Baldy?] and we both joined up together at Barnsley because they’d only let us join aircrew. No other because we couldn’t go in the Army, we couldn’t go in the Navy, we couldn’t go in the Air Force to be ground staff. It had to be air crew. Not knowing what aircrew were like then we said we’d take it. We went for a weekend in Doncaster to be interviewed, to be examined and have a medical. We had to stop overnight. I failed the first interview, blowing mercury up and doings. And me wanting to get into aircrew I blew it up and held my tongue there. So they failed me for holding me tongue there. So I begged and prayed them to let me go and do it again. Where they were doing the examination were on the third floor of a new building. A court building at Doncaster. And I had to go down to the bottom floor, run up to the third, blow it up and hold it for thirty seconds and did it ever [pause] I don’t know how I managed it but I did it. I passed all the exams, arithmetic and everything else, and I thought this’ll be funny this if I go to, if I’m not eligible to get into aircrew which were Royal Air Force then. So we both passed it. Went home. They’ve given us a number, us Air Force number 1595171. You never forget it. Irving got his letter first after a month to go. I were a bit peeved because I hadn’t got one and he’d been in three weeks. They wouldn’t let us go together. With us being mates and pals they wouldn’t let us. No way were they going to let us be together through the war. And I got my papers three week after to go to Lord’s Cricket Ground and that’s where we started being in the Royal Air Force. We spent a week there in a big hotel St John’s Wood. Then we went to Shropshire. Spent, I think it were about four week there. Three or four week. We were sent then to Bridlington. In Bridlington they must have thought we were illiterate or something. It were like going school. And then when I found out a lot of people at that time couldn’t read and write were going in aircrew. We spent a few weeks there, and we were posted up to different gunnery schools and I were posted up to Dalcross just outside Inverness. And [pause] that’s where I remember it very well because if you wanted to go at night in to Inverness and you missed the last bus home it were a seven mile walk. I missed the last bus once and then I had to peel spuds for a week which weren’t very nice. Then we passed Gunnery School. They gave us the stripes and sent home on leave. We were supposed then to wait for a letter to go to a crewing school to be crewed up with other people. You had to go to this place, a big hangar and you had to find out who you’d like to fly with. But for some unknown reason I got a letter to go up to Lossiemouth and meet a crew up there that had already crewed up at one of these places and they’d been together a fortnight. And somehow or other mid-upper gunner couldn’t, he couldn’t mix with them so they took him out and I took his place. So I had no chance then to pick my crew. Although good luck and what have you we really gelled. There were six of us but there were only one turret so although we won’t fly one would be in the rear turret and the other would be messing about with the front gun because it were a Wellington. That’s how we, we went from there to Acaster Malbis at York for a fortnight because somehow or another there were that many crews finishing and all ready for going on to squadrons that somehow or other there were a bit of a backup. So we did a fortnight at Acaster Malbis. Then we were sent to Riccall, Heavy Conversion Unit and we weren’t very happy because they were the old type Halifax. They were the really clapped out Halifaxes. You were lucky if you got off the ground with it. But we did a lot of training on it and then we were there about four week. We were sent then to Leconfield, 640 Squadron and that’s when we were introduced to [pause] we used to have a name for it. Where you could see people that that had been there a fair while not smiling and walking around not smiling and we were a crew that were always really happy and smiling together. Our first trip were to bomb an airfield in France, and we didn’t know what we were going to get. Lucky for us there were ten tenths cloud and we got a recall. We circled the target a little bit and then we were recalled home. That were our introduction to being on a squadron. Our first, second trip [pause] I’ve got it. Our second trip was to Soesterberg. Same distance in France somewhere we think it were. We bombed that no trouble. No problem. And then we did two trips. One to Le Havre where the Germans were holding out. So that were like us first four trips were easy. Then we moved towards, when we went into crew room to briefing still laughing. Not knowing what it would be like really to be on a real bombing trip. We went to Scholven, Ruhr Valley and we could hear people, some of the crews, some of the old crews that had been there before calling it Death Valley, Happy Valley. All sorts of names. And we kept wondering why? Why? And then that’s when we realised why they were losing a lot of crew. It weren’t very nice to be shot at. When we came back we were due for six days leave. Yes. When you went to a squadron and you walked through that gate you were on duty for six solid weeks. The only time you got out was if the weather was bad and you were stood down and you weren’t going to do any flying. Then you could probably get two or three hours to go in to a village if there were any one near or anything like that. But after six weeks, you got six days leave to recuperate from that six weeks. And in them six days I got married. So then I took the wife back. She insisted she were going back with me so I found her some lodgings about five mile out of Beverley. That meant like I was going from Leconfield through Beverley for four or five miles on a bike. And they weren’t very light them army bikes. And so after a fortnight I just got fed up with it and packed her off back home. It were no good. It were taking a toll. In other words I weren’t doing my job right. I were tending to miss things as we were flying which I shouldn’t do. An air gunner, his job was to look after the plane and get it back safely and I didn’t think I was doing a good job. That’s why I sent her back home. And through then we went on then different trips. Some bad. Some good. There were always anti-aircraft bods. It were frightening. I don’t think anybody that flew wasn’t frightened on some trips it was so bad. You wondered. If it hadn’t have been for the fact that the gunners had something to do looking out for enemy aeroplanes, you didn’t bother with the flak. You just didn’t want to miss if there had been any aeroplanes. Then after about a third way through a trip you realised when you’re over the target there would be no enemy aeroplanes because they wouldn’t be flying through their own flak. So really you could just settle down through the bombing run and coming out the other side of the flak. Then you started working again. You daren’t [pause] there were times when we came out of debriefing room, there were times you’d think oh God, how about tonight? Sometimes you did have to. On our thirteenth trip, Oostkapelle must have been the easiest run. The easiest trip we could have. We were going to lead 640 Squadron in. We were the front aeroplane. We were going to bomb from four thousand feet because that was the cloud base. But at four thousand feet we were still flying in cloud so Bill the pilot decided to come down under cloud so he could see what we were doing. Three thousand feet we were still in cloud. Well, my [trouble], but next thing there was such a big bang and I thought that it were enemy aircraft and I’m looking around for enemy aircraft. They were so that they hit starboard outer and we were going down and Bill the pilot was screaming, ‘Dinghy. Dinghy.’ That meant we were going in to the sea. So I looked down and I just lowered my seat to get out of the turret when I felt it level off. And then I heard Bill say, ‘We’ve got it.’ So him and the bomb aimer must between them must have rectified it. So I pulled my seat back up, stopped where I were still looking for enemy aircraft. Still not knowing that it were the guns. Then we decided, some people, I think we were about a thousand feet off the sea. Everything were quite plain, so we decided as a crew we’d go around again because we’d still got the bombs on board. And we went around again after Bill had got us back to about two thousand feet and there were only us left there and they were firing at us with their rifles and all sorts. You could see them. But me and Reg hadn’t swung his, because Bill were having trouble keeping the aeroplane, keeping it level and everything. So we both put us guns aft. We didn’t, we didn’t shoot anything. We just faced off and left it at that. We were still looking for enemy aircraft. Then when I looked over the side and saw they were firing all sorts at us. Then all of a sudden they seemed to scatter when Arthur opened his bomb bay. So they’d an idea that we were going to drop us bombs somewhere which we did. We dropped them bang on target. And as you dropped them and Arthur shouted, ‘Bombs away,’ Bill swung the aircraft around, not waiting to take the photograph, although a photograph were taken but it were taken on another part of the island because all of us tilted over, it had gone over. That were our thirteenth trip. Never to be forgotten. Then we’d next morning we were called to the briefing room. We were going to the self same place again but we were using a different aircraft. Z-Zebra were being repaired. And it was like a Sunday morning trip. So quiet. And then we got to know a fortnight after that that the army went in and we captured it. So that, that were us thirteenth and after that everything [pause] the next raid I remember very clearly were Julich. Julich. 16th of November. A daylight raid. It was a big raid. I think it were a railway. Germany were sending their troops to the front line. We had to try and destroy it. We were down to go in the fourth wave and as we were going in we had two dog legs to go when the first wave were going through. And in the distance I could see them going through and it were a box barrage. The first time I’d ever seen a clear box barrage and they were taking a hammering. They were really shooting one or two down. And I said to Bill, ‘Bill, look at that lot over there.’ And we’d still two dog legs to go to come on our bombing run. He said, ‘Oh, they might have run out of ammunition by the time we get there.’ I said, ‘Bill, we’re in the bottom layer. Don’t you think it would be nice if we crawled up to the top layer?’ And he said, ‘We can’t do that Rosey.’ He called me Rosey because there were two Bills. He said, ‘We can’t do that because the photograph has to be taken at nineteen thousand feet.’ And that were the bottom layer. And I remember very clearly on our bombing run looking up. There were a Lanc above us with the bomb bay doors open and it’s not nice looking at them. And we were on our bombing run so he was on the bombing run. I asked Bill to move over. He looked up. He said, ‘Oh God.’ He did move over. The next thing the Lanc let it’s bombs go and Bill said, ‘You’re right. It’s got bombs.’ We were that near. We were that close. So we got away with it again. Then after that the further we went into the Germany the longer we were in the air. Tiring. After that we got seasoned to all the flak and everything. Then on our last trip [pause] when we landed on our last trip which were to Homberg no problem. No trouble. Although I think if I look in the reference book then maybe they did lose some. But when we landed we got out of [pause] We had ‘chutes and everything. We got out of the aeroplane and knowing it were our last trip it were like a cloak running off my shoulders. Nobody could tell what it were like. Nobody could feel. They can’t explain what that feeling were like but it was just as though somebody had took a cloak and you’re free. That were my last trip. And then I went on leave. And I got a letter to go back up to Lossiemouth as an instructor for some French crews, and I couldn’t talk a damned word of French. So I thought I’d done flying but I did another month flying with French crews which were happy enough. We weren’t getting shot at and drinking plenty of French wine which were a happy end to my flying. I never flew no more when I left Lossiemouth. And after that I went on two courses before I realised that Sylvia, my wife were pregnant. So being a miner I were able to take what they called a Class B Release. And I took Class B Release and came home just in time for Christmas. In fact, I was took off records. Put on reserved records until the 7th of January or when I left. 1946 were when I left the RAF and went back into the mine. I stayed there for about eighteen year. Then I were offered a job in glass container industry. I didn’t think there were another life other than mining. It changed my life altogether because there was, after I’d been there twelve month they were short of somebody to be secretary for the Union branch and they asked me if I’d do it. So therefore I did that. And then after three year there I became chairman at Yorkshire glass container industry. Then after that I were asked to do National Joint Industrial Council Member which I took for four year which meant travelling all over England attending different glassworks, sitting on dispute committees, safety committees. Never being at home. Not seeing the wife as much. I think I saw the wife more in wartime than what I did in work time, I’ll never forget. She were working. I were working. We’d two lads. I were getting called out at night regular. So I went to see a landlord in a little boozer down Wombwell, and he said I could use that as an office from 9 o’clock ‘til closing time. And that became my office for at least eight year where anybody in trouble at work and other works could phone me and not disturb the wife. So then we ended up happy. And I retired when I was sixty two. It weren’t doing my health any good travelling up and down and going to disputes and safety committees. They were taking a lot of time up so I retired and I never, I’ve now been retired thirty two year and still feel fit. When I retired I did a bit of golfing but it weren’t too heavy so I bought some Crown Green woods, and I played Crown Green Bowling up to being ninety two in competitions winning different cups and shields. And I would still do it today if I could get on [laughs] which when I go with my son on holiday the first thing he does is look for a Crown Green Bowling Green and we go and have an hour. And so that’s the end and I don’t know what’s, I lost Sylvia two years back. So, we’d been married seventy one year. Three months short of seventy two so I think we’d had a good life. So that’s my story.
BH: It's a wonderful story Bill and there’s so much detail in there.
SP: Hmmn?
BH: There’s so much detail in there and you talk about Sylvia and you married her during the war. How did you actually meet?
SP: Well, funny enough I were walking out with her cousin. And we weren’t courting, we were just walking out because her father worked at the same place as me and I’d known her. We got an invitation to Sylvia’s seventeenth birthday and her cousin were only seventeen. So we went and somehow or another her cousin decided to go home. She weren’t feeling well. So I ended up going for a drink that night and I partnered Sylvia and that’s how we got together. She were working on Lancasters at Bradford. She were working, I think it were at Leeds Airport or somewhere making Lancasters. When I told her I were joining up she weren’t very dead keen. I didn’t have to go but I could only go in aircrew which I’ve mentioned before. So there must have been, every aircrew man was a volunteer. Didn’t have to go. Didn’t have to do it. Didn’t have to go on a trip. If you said you weren’t going to go on a trip they couldn’t put you on a plane. They couldn’t do ought. But and that comes the trouble. They were put on, no matter how many trips they’d done. You could have done two tours and on your third tour and you said you didn’t feel like going again they’d put lack of moral fibre, LMF on your records. Which to me weren’t very nice. So, but I’m digressing back to the Air Force again and I shouldn’t do that. We, I came out, me and Sylvia and we were married while I were in the Air Force. We lived with her mother and dad for two year before we got a council house. We didn’t have any money so we had to rent one. They were all, nobody had money to buy them in them days although they weren’t very dear. But from being fourteen I’d always been a staunch Labour man and I’d been to Union schools from being sixteen. And when I looked back I can understand why they put me on regular nights. Keep me out of trouble because in them days lads down, young lads down the pit going down at fourteen didn’t have anybody looking after them and I learned a lot to do with the Union rules and regulations so that I could look after a lot of the lads at Darfield Main. Even when I come back in to the mine from the Air Force I still took it up. Union work. And I think that’s why I were offered a job in the glass industry. So I could use my Union skills. And actually funnily enough it were a company employee, one of the men that recommended I had this job. So we got on very well. So that’s what I’ve done with my life. Looking after other people. When I retired I joined the British Legion. I became chairman of the local branch. Then when we decided they were going to have a 640 Association I became chairman of that because nobody wanted, knew how to carry on. And from being chairman we were losing that many members. Secretaries. I became secretary and I used to write a lot of newsletters. I used to write newsletters. Send them all over. Canada. All over. And now I don’t know what to do with myself. I can’t do any gardening. I’ve always been a gardener. I love gardening. I find it very difficult now which is understandable at my age. So, I don’t think there’s much more I can tell you. You can ask your questions now.
SP: Just going back to your crewing up do you want to tell me a little bit about who your crew were? So you crew up. You crewed up at Lossiemouth, didn’t you? You were sent up there to join an established crew already.
BH: Yeah.
SP: Do you want to tell me who your crew were? Were they, you know different nationalities on it?
BH: Our pilot Bill Goodrum. He came from Middlesbrough. His father were a master builder so Bill were really in the building trade. Bomb aimer came from Sheffield. He were in the steel industry. Wireless op came from Edinburgh.
SP: What was he called? What was his name?
BH: Bob. Bob came from Edinburgh. Bob. Larry was the youngest of the crew. He came from Brighton. Reg actually lived in Beverley. Couldn’t believe it when we were sent to 640 Squadron. Leconfield is only just outside Beverley. Which were good for us all because if we got two hour spare we always went down to Reg’s mother for a pot of tea. And then I came from Barnsley. A miner. Then last one to join the crew at Riccall were the engineer, and I think he came from Bury but we never got to know really. So, that were, but he was the last to join. Engineer. We didn’t pick the engineer up while we got to the Heavy Conversion Unit. He seemed a nice lad. We were all ok together, no problem, but very rarely did we go out as a crew. Bill were a sergeant when we arrived. We were all sergeants really when we arrived at Leconfield and when we left Leconfield at the end of March in ’45 he were a flight lieui. So that were really quick but we know why. He used to volunteer for all jobs flying. That meant we were volunteering as well because we had to fly with him. So we did more practice bombing than anybody else on the squadron and that’s why he became a flight lieui so fast. We think. Bob, the wireless op. You could, if you went in a boozer he’d be in but he’d be playing snooker. He were a very good snooker player. Larry was the navigator. Were tall. Very long hair. He were always finding us a place to go he’d been invited to. If they got some daughters we were invited to a party as a crew. That’s the only time we ever went together. Reg were always at, if he’d two or three hours he was always down at home. He had two sisters and they were always inviting us but we could never. Really there were only two or three times we went and had a party there. If we were stood down, at Reg’s mother’s, if we were stood down at any time we would all go to Reg’s mother’s. We were happy enough. But we never seemed to find time to go a lot down into Beverley because it was me and Reg were always studying aircraft. Even if, if we were nothing to do, if we come back off a [unclear] at night two or three hours in bed. Then we’d go down to the gunnery office and start looking at any new aircraft that had come out. So really it paid off for me and Reg. Oh, I can honestly say that me and Reg never fired us guns in anger. Daytime Bill always kept a flight plan and we always seemed to be in the middle. On a, in a daylight raid was the only time you ever saw how many aircraft were going. And the aircraft, there’d be two hundred in each wave. If it were a big raid there’d be two hundred or so. All supposed to go through this little box. But when, when you were going there seemed to be aircraft three miles wide. The sky were full of aircraft, but it were three miles wide and you used to think how on earth are we all going to get to the exact same target. It made you wonder at times what, what you were really doing. But I think that’s why we came through. We kept a flight plan. Some of them you could see them they come out of the bomb run, spend the thirty seconds taking the photographs, then you’d see them bank over and start diving and going away as fast as they can to get back home. To be the first for egg and bacon I suppose. But it was always them that were being shot. Damaged. Of course if you saw a dogfight and they were trying to get to one aircraft there’d be three trying to get at that aircraft. But there were some silly devil that had to get off the flightpath, trying to take shortcuts and he would pay the price. So on a night if you fired your guns you were telling other aircraft where you were. You were telling the enemy where you were. I remember on one trip we’d had a bashing with the flak and we were coming back. We were talking about, still me and Reg were looking around and I said, ‘Look over here at 2 o’clock on starboard, Reg.’ ‘Oh,’ he says. I said, ‘We might have been hit. And he couldn’t have been, in the dark we could see him plainly. 109. And he flew with us for about ten minutes. We didn’t mention it to Bill, the pilot. He thought it had gone so we didn’t mention it. And we weren’t talking about it, me and Reg we were just watching him. The next thing he just went. Just banked over and gone. But he still didn’t know. When we got back we had a talk about it, me and Reg. We didn’t fire because if we had fired at him he’d probably some mates at the other side that would have wanted to know where the aircraft were and we would have been giving our position away. So actually you didn’t. You only had to fire your guns if you were being attacked. And if you were doing things right you didn’t get attacked. If you were moving your turret up and down they could see that you were awake. If you weren’t moving your guns up and down they’d an idea you were asleep. So that’s I think how we got through thirty eight trips although I only did thirty four. I did three week or [unclear] they call it. Anyhow, I got myself in trouble. Put it that way. I can’t say big words or I’ll lose my teeth. I got myself in trouble. It was when I’d just got married and we were supposed to be on our honeymoon and we were stood down while 12 o’clock. We’d been to Le Havre in the morning. Came back. We hadn’t dropped us bombs and we were stood down while 12 o’clock. And it were a daylight raid so I got my bicycle to here. You know what it is when you’re first married. And at half past 8 at night I said, ‘Oh, I’m going to get off back.’ I had to be back for 12 o’clock. And it were really cloudy. I thought well, they’ll not be going tonight. I’ll go back about 4 o’clock in the morning,’ which I did. When I comes through Beverley on my bike really going like the clappers I could hear aeroplane’s engines. My heart missed a beat. They were getting ready to go to Le Havre again. And I was cycling. Couldn’t get through the gate but I knew where there were an opening because I knew where all the ports where you could get in, and I went in and I went straight around to, to where Z-Zebra were. Bill give me a rollicking. I said, ‘Well, I’ll go as I am.’ He said, ‘No. We’ve got a mid-upper. Mid-upper’s going.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ll swap places with him.’ He said, ‘No. You can’t.’ He said, ‘Go back and see the CO.’ So I went back and saw the CO and he sent me to Sheffield Correction Centre for three week. And they cut all my hair off. I had some lovely long hair which all aircrew did. You did. Nobody bothered about aircrew. How they were dressed to go. I don’t know, because you might not come back off of any trip. I mean they were losing actually three out of every five who were getting either killed or injured or prisoner of war. So I did three week there. Everything they did were honoured except Sunday parade where I did two Sunday parades. And you had to be smart. And there were some bad lads there. Really, really bad lads. Someone asked me what I did. And I had to take all my kit bags. Five. All my flying clothes and everything. I couldn’t leave them at Leconfield. When I got on the train to Sheffield and I got to Sheffield I phoned them up at Dalton, that’s where it were, to send transport down. I got another rollicking and if I weren’t up there in half an hour I’d get another week tacked on to my three weeks. But I were lucky. I got a taxi driver to take me up and he didn’t take no money off me. It were a good job because I didn’t have any. That were why, that’s why I missed four trips.
SP: And did the crew take you straight back into the crew? There wasn’t any risk of the mid-upper staying.
BH: Well, when I went back I were really the fittest man on the squadron, and I went straight back the day after on a trip so there were no problem. The crew didn’t mentioned it. They didn’t mention it. They never mentioned it to me. It’s something I didn’t forget but I never did ought wrong again while I was in the Air Force. Never.
SP: Did you keep in touch with the crew after the war? Did you stay —
BH: Well, the only person after the war [pause] Goodrum. Bill Goodrum, pilot. I went up for a, me and Sylvia went to his, his mother and dad invited us for the weekend up there and we went up for a weekend. And then I got Bill’s number. He got married. I went up. Visited him at the house he’d built. And after that every New Year at 2 o’clock in the morning he’d phone me. That were my birthday to wish me a happy birthday. As drunk as a lord he were. He must have been drunk to phone me up at two in the morning. So we kept in touch that way. And then in nineteen, the early 1980s my youngest brother bought a caravan but he bought it without the knowledge that he’d got to tow it, and he didn’t have a licence. He didn’t even have a car. So I had to take it to a site at Bridlington. So, I knew where Reg lived because I’d visited him about four year after we’d left Leconfield. So I knew where he lived. So when I dropped the caravan off in Brid I came back that way through Beverley and called to see Reg. I don’t think he knew me at first. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘It’s Rosey. Come in.’ They’d been to Elvington that day. It was a Sunday. They’d been to Elvington and he were telling me they were going to be rebuilding a Halifax there. And somebody were trying to start a 640 Squadron Association, he said, ‘But I’d like us all to be first.’ But he didn’t know that Larry had passed away about two year before I met him again. And funnily enough Larry had phoned me at work. He’d stayed in the Royal Air Force and he’d made himself chief navigator at Cranwell. Yeah, it were Cranwell, and he came out and the only job he could get were working at Folkestone. Control, controlling people at them that searches them and that, and he didn’t like it. I said, ‘Well, I’m here.’ I said, ‘I can get you a job here,’ because then I were working at [unclear] and travelling about. I said, ‘If you want to come up here you could get a house up here.’ So, ‘I’ve got a house here. I said the only thing I said is, ‘I can get you a job at the glass industry, no worry.’ He said, ‘I don’t want that.’ And then after I spoke to him, I didn’t phone him again. I’d got his number and his address and the next thing his wife rang me and said he’d passed away. So I said, ‘Well, when’s the funeral?’ She said, ‘Oh, we’ve had the funeral.’ It was nice to tell me. So anyway a bit after that a squadron leader, he’d retired, he were a teacher at one of the schools about two mile up the road at Darfield, and he called. He said Larry were his lecturer, his chief while he were in the Air Force. And Larry was only a flight lieui and he were a squadron leader. But Larry was the boss of navigators and this squadron leader were on when they were dropping the first atomic bomb. He were on it, this squadron leader and he were telling me about Larry and everything. So I have to go out. So anyway we got to know and he called a time or two telling me about what Larry and done and you know how good he were. So I kept in touch with his wife. Well, Sylvia did. And then I got a message from Reg, the rear gunner. He’d like us all to meet but how do we get on one another. I said, ‘Well, leave it with me.’ So then, where I had my office down Wombwell, when I were working for the Union there was a chap there worked in the Post Office. He were the chief of the telephones. So I mentioned it to him like. We all wanted to get. He said, ‘Do you know where they live?’ I said, ‘Oh aye.’ So I told them where they lived. He said, ‘Names?’ And the next thing I were talking to everybody and it were the holiday period so then we arranged us own meeting. All together except for Larry. He’d gone. He’d died. They didn’t know. We met up at Middlesbrough. And the next time we met then were at 640 Squadron Association at Elvington. We all met there again. Larry had stayed in the Air Force. Bob had stayed in the Air Force. Bill, because he were a pilot and he wanted to do a little bit of private, he joined the ATC training youngsters at Stockport and he did all the flying for them. Piloting. Nobody else had a chance when Bill were there with being a flight lieui he were their gaffer. So he got that. And Reg had gone back plumbing. He were a plumber. He got back plumbing. Arthur had gone back into the steelworks. I think he were working in the offices. Frank had gone to live in Australia, or he’d told us he’d gone to live in Australia. He bought a house in Australia. He brought his family up in Australia. Then they all decided to come back to England for a holiday and when they got back to England they stopped in England and started all over again in Barrow. So really, and then that’s how we all kept together, and I kept in touch with them all. I used to go down to [unclear] where Arthur lived, the bomb aimer, nearly every month to see him. And these past few years, well these past four year I’ve been going down to Eastbourne to see Bob because that’s where he’d gone to live and he wasn’t very well. In fact he passed away twelve month back. They’ve all passed away now. He were the last before me. There’s only me left of the crew. I went to Bill’s funeral, I went to Arthur’s funeral, I went to Bob’s, and I went to [pause] I can remember, but I can’t remember the names. Reg. The only funeral I didn’t go to were Larry’s and I couldn’t go to that because they didn’t let me know. So somehow I would have got there. It meant travelling.
SP: But you did stay together quite, after you re-met.
BH: No.
SP: The reunion quite, after in 1980 when you got together.
BH: Yeah. When we got together.
SP: You were still quite in touch. Yeah.
BH: That was when we first all got together again.
SP: Yeah.
BH: And, yeah, you know all rear gunners. For reunions though. Reg had passed away. Bob, Bob, he went to a few. We went to a few. Not many. Frank went to a few. Not many. Me, Arthur the bomb aimer and Bill, the pilot always went to them. At one period Bill were secretary, I were chairman and Arthur were treasurer. Nobody wanted to do it so I we said like we would do it. Well, Bill did. He thought it were [unclear] again. I said, ‘Bill, we’ve got a life to live as well.’ And then when it come to writing letters, newsletters that fell to me again. And it fell to me to have them printed which I did. I found a person to print all newsletters in Rawmarsh. In a printing firm. He were very good about it. He would sort it all out. I’d give him all the gen. He sorted it all out. Had it printed. Put it in the envelopes and he’d only take cost price for it. So all we had to do was pay postage.
SP: Is the Association still an active one? Is 640 Squadron Association still going?
BH: No.
SP: No. It’s finished then.
BH: No. ’99. I think it were 1999. There weren’t many of us left then. There were only about twenty turning up at Associations. Arthur wanted to pack it in. Bill had died. I were doing secretary job. I were actually doing the chairman’s job as well. Nobody wanted to do that but we got one where we coerced one bloke to sit in there in chair and I would pass him what to do. And so it were left like Arthur said, we said to him like, ‘I’m not going to have this job next year.’ So I told the meeting. We were having the meeting in Garrison Church in Beverley and I said we need somebody. I had an idea that Kevin, my youngest son and his wife would have run it but I couldn’t say, ‘Kevin and Beryl will run it for us,’ because they were in Sheffield visiting their daughter. They go twice a year there and spend a lot of time there. When they come back I explained it to them and they said, ‘Well, we would have run it, dad.’ I said, ‘Well, I couldn’t very well tell the meeting,’ I said. So we decided that there were that many passing, passing away that it wouldn’t be viable. And we had a bit of money because people were, kept sending money in and we were very careful and I were looking around to get the cheapest thing I could. Like the only postage were letters. I mean I were writing letters. He would only, Beresford’s they called the printer he were doing it cost price. And oh, I wrote to [pause] well the chap that started the Association he wanted a letter writing to the brewery. We were having this big meeting at [pause] We were unveiling a stall in the church yard in Beverley and he wanted a letter writing to John Smith’s Brewery. They got some money from there. The he wrote in to an insurance firm and they wrote back, “We’re building houses. Not knocking them down. You can’t have anything.” So you know I were really active all the time. All the time I’ve been retired I’ve been active.
SP: Yeah.
BH: Probably that’s why I’m living a long time. I don’t know. But —
SP: So we —
BH: You know, people, I’ve lived in this street all us married live. We used to live in one of those houses across the road. I’ve always lived in a council house because when I came out the Air Force although we were both working the wages weren’t very big. We didn’t have the money to buy a house so we were grateful to the council were they to build us one. When it came that Margaret Thatcher said you can buy them Sylvia knew my thoughts. These houses were built for people that couldn’t afford to buy and we’re not going to take it off the market. In a way it’s paid off because if we’d have bought it, Sylvia had only been retired five year when she really started being ill. She wasn’t seventy when she were ill. Started being ill. Really ill. So that meant —
SP: Yeah.
BH: It meant then we were both retired. We’d got a caravan. We bought the caravan when we retired. A new one. We’d had one. We’d been camping at first and then we bought this caravan to go. We liked touring Scotland. She did. We were always up Scotland, and we bought this new one. I think we only used to twice when she started being ill. So that meant I had to look after her. And we, we started applying for things for her. We couldn’t have them. We were too, we’d too much money in the bank. That were, you know. And I said, ‘Well, that’s no good.’ I was still in the Labour Party. Still a member, and I started talking to some of the councillors which I knew nearly them all with going to meetings and that. And they were telling me and giving me advice. So when it got too much for me and she became then, she had to have oxygen in the house so there were oxygen pipes running all over and I still, we didn’t have nobody to give me a hand and I applied again for some help. And I still didn’t. We were refused. So I went to the monthly meeting and I met a councillor there and I were explaining to him how we were getting refused, you know. He said, ‘Leave it with me, Bill,’ he said, ‘I’ll write a letter myself and put it in.’ And a week after a doctor called. Not our own doctor. Another doctor to see Sylvia for this application for her allowance because they gave an allowance you know and he let me read it. I thought, well it looks no different to what I wrote, but there were a little bit at the bottom that were different to what I’d put in. In fact, it were telling the honest truth, you know. She were really poorly, and so this doctor came and saw her. He said, ‘Oh aye.’ So she got carers allowance. Top care allowance. But we also got back pay for twelve month from the first time. So then we, I could have, I applied for a stairlift. I applied for everything for her but we had to buy them. There was too much money in the bank. So I said we’d better start spending some. So, you know, so we did but we always had to buy stuff to look after Sylvia. She passed away two years back.
[recording paused]
SP: So just going back a little bit Bill. You said you did training in Lossiemouth.
BH: Yeah.
SP: During the war. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that? What life was like at Lossiemouth and the training that you did there?
BH: French.
SP: You trained the French didn’t you? Yeah.
BH: French crews.
SP: Yeah.
BH: Well, we were still, for a period we were still using Wellingtons. I think for the first week. And French crews. One goes to Wellingtons. Of course, Wellington bomber you couldn’t just simply get up and walk down to the rear turret. You had to walk on a plank which was about a width of a square four paper. Not many. So you had to be careful. You had to hang on to the sides as you walking down to the rear turret. The first week. Oh dear. I don’t know whether they’d had too much wine or what. You were taking four at a time up and one in the rear turret and three down, sat down the front and we were changing from the first one to the second. We were changing them over and it were after lunch anyway. He came from the rear turret. Of course they couldn’t pass to go to the front and I was taking the second one back and I thought he looked all right to me. And he went with his leg through. One leg went over the plank and somehow or other he went through because it were like a funny shape. His leg went through so there we got him out anyway, two of us. I went down first and got on top from the other side and one of the other Frenchmen. There was one who could talk English. Every time I went up there was always one that could talk English. Yeah. We insisted on that. And we got him out. The pilot said, ‘Well, we’d best go back.’ I said, ‘Well, we’re not using oxygen. We don’t need oxygen. We’re not high enough. What’s the use? Let him go up and sit down because he’s scratched his leg and God knows what.’ I said, ‘One’s been injured. There’s only two more. We’re not going to be a long time.’ And after that when we got back we reported it to the CO didn’t like it. Otherwise I should have been more careful. I said, ‘It weren’t me.’ I mean how could I tell him? You know. I didn’t know he were drunk. Anyway, the week after we went on to the Halifax. No problem then. And we could take then I think it were eight at a time so we were up longer and there were no problem. Just swapping over and interpreter with the other one. He were always flying. Poor bugger. I don’t know. The only one who could talk English, so he went up every time we did and I said in the morning and I said in the afternoon, you know. I knew he were getting fed up. And then at the end of the month they did their course. And they didn’t know what to do with me. They sent me down to Abingdon. And I were at Abingdon about a fortnight. I came back up to Wheaton on a course but I think it were to, really to look after some [pause] there were some new entrants were on this course. They didn’t know what to do with them so they put them on this course. It were learning them to be stock taker, warehousemen. So they said like I had to learn warehouse. I said, ‘I don’t want a warehouse job.’ But I had to go. But I finished up being in charge of this hut. There were about twenty of them. But I was still going on the course with them. Anyway, after about six week on the course we were finished. I know I failed. I didn’t want to be warehouse. I mean it was easy enough. Instead of just filling three forms in you filled four forms in. If you were on four you did three. You know. So then they changed. All them that were in that hut went on leave. I don’t know how many there were. They all went on leave and I’m looking around for my ticket to go on leave. I weren’t getting one and there were an officer there, aircrew and he was in charge. I was in charge of [unclear] and he was in charge of the [unclear] I said, ‘Well, give me a weekend pass then.’, ‘I can’t,’ he said, ‘There’s another lot coming in.’ I said, ‘I’m not going on a course. I’m not going on a warehouse course,’ I said, ‘I’m digging my heels in.’ So I want to see the adjutant.’ What adjutant? He wouldn’t let me see the CO.’ I explained it to him. I said, ‘I’ve just been on a course and all I were doing were looking after that hut,’ I said, ‘And it’s not fair.’ He said, ‘Well, forget about it.’ He said, ‘That course that’s going in is going on a driving course. You can go on that.’ I were going to blurt out I can drive because I’ve been able to drive from being sixteen. I’ve had, I had a licence at sixteen before I went in the Air Force. Besides working in the pit I were doing some spare driving. Because all drivers were in the army and at sixteen and a half you could drive providing you got Ls on your vehicle but nobody at the side of you. You could drive with your learners. So I were leading like before. In 1939 I was FSO to different parts of villages around here. [unclear] you know, really in my spare time. So anyway that’s how I went on this course. There were twenty more lads coming and I had to march them up to this big hangar go across the main road and it were like the other side of the main road. It were in Wheaton itself. A big hangar and there must have been three hundred cars in there. BSM Motoring School. That’s what it said on. And I told the main instructor, ‘There’s twenty lads here and me.’ He says, ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘I’ve got a note,’ so he says, ‘We’re splitting you up into threes.’ So me, I could already drive like but I wanted to be first in this car, and I got in. I think we’d only gone three miles when he said, ‘Hey, stop,’ and these two at the back couldn’t drive and he said, ‘You can drive.’ So I had to say, ‘Yeah. I’ve got a licence. A learner’s licence but it had run out with being in the Air Force. So he said, ‘But you can drive, can’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, you sit in the back and the other two can learn.’ So then I spent, they were in cars for the first month and I was sat in the back of this car with my feet up. No worries, except taking them there and bringing them back. Then when it were a different. They went on to lorries. Big lorries. So I said, ‘Oh, I’m not going to sit in the back again. No way.’ So I told the bloke in charge like, I said, ‘I can’t drive a big lorry. Never have done.’ So I learned that role. I went that road. So when I came out they gave me licence to drive everything. Drove rollers, motorbikes, everything. There you are. I said, ‘All I’ve been on is lorries and cars.’ ‘Oh, that don’t matter. Take it.’ So when I got my first licence I had all these things on. Anyway, I went on this course and when it finished I decided then, oh I got to know Sylvia were pregnant at the end of the course. So I went again to see the adjutant. He were a nice bloke. You could always get in to see him. I told him I fancied taking visa leave. Told him why. ‘Oh, that ain’t a problem. Go on your leave first, because if we start now he says they’ll not get you seven days leave.’ He said ‘Go on your leave first and then come back and see me again.’ So then I went on leave and that were ok. Came back. Went to see him. That were October. And a fortnight, or a week before Christmas, that were it, a week before Christmas I had to go down to Uxbridge. Demob. [unclear] off my back. All I had to give them were my overcoat. I had to give my flying kit. Just my overcoat. That’s all they wanted. Everything else they said you can keep. So I kept all my stuff and come home with this suit. And then when I looked at my paybook it said my pay finished on the 7th of January. So I were back working the week after. I just went down to the colliery and that was it. I got it. I were put on nights again.
[recording paused]
Early doors. If you know Brid there’s a big hall at the bottom and then there were this big hotel across the road and there were only officers used to go in there. And I met up with two lads, two Scots lads. We were billeted. All Air Force had took over Brid then. Every boarding house had been taken over because there were that many aircrew there. Me and these two lads for a bit of fun like we marched into this hotel and everything went quiet when we walked in. They served us. No problem there but everybody were looking at us. All the officers were looking at us all the time. So we never said a word. Just talking about different things together and we just drunk up but when we were coming out we got a squadron leader who stopped us at the door. He said, ‘You know, airmen don’t come in here.’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘Well, they just don’t come.’ He said, ‘You’re the first that have been here for months.’ He said, ‘But we’re not telling you to stop out but you don’t come in.’ That’s all he said to us [unclear] Now, that were officers, you know. And then at the end of the war, we weren’t there [pause] We’d left, left for the end of the war, there were no more war. Good. They tell me in the sergeants mess they put a rope across for regular sergeants, flight sergeants, warrant officers on that side and aircrew on this side. I said, ‘Well, it was a damned good job we weren’t there then, you know.’ I couldn’t believe it but that’s what they said they did. Yet again when, I’m sure they called it Georgian Corner or Square at Beverley we had a room there for every crew finishing the tour and the one to have a night out which every crew did and give the ground crew that had looked after their plane a good night could go and take over that room. You know. Have beer at beer cost price. So I remember when we went we took our ground crew. I think it were about 6 o’clock in the morning when we all trooped out really. From 6 o’clock the night before and the beer kept flowing and flowing. But then we were all young. You know what I mean? I remember that one very well. You know.
SP: Well, Bill thanks very much for sharing your stories with us today. There’s been some really detailed stories there. That’s been fantastic.
BH: Yeah.
SP: So I really appreciate your time on that. So on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive we want to thank you for taking part today.
BH: Well, this I could just, I don’t, I’ve no crew mates left so I’ve nobody like to visit, or you know. I used to like to go to Canada and visit that museum which, I mean, I think it took ten year it took them to rebuild that one.
SP: You’re pointing at the Halifax picture. The one they’ve repainted, err the one they repaired that came out of the —
BH: And they’ve no mid-upper turret if you look.
SP: Yeah.
BH: [unclear]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bill Harvey
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarveyW180802, PHarveyW1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:28:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Harvey was working in the mines before volunteering for the RAF. He knew that as a miner he was in a Reserved Occupation and he would only be able to leave the mine if he was to volunteer for aircrew. He was accepted and began his training. Rather than do the crewing up in the traditional way he was posted to RAF Lossiemouth to replace a gunner on a crew which was already established. When Bill was not back in camp on one occasion when an op was planned he was disciplined by being sent to the Corrections unit at Sheffield. After he had served that time he returned to the crew and to operational flying. When they returned from their last operation Bill describes the relief of surviving to being like having a cloak taken from his shoulders. After his operations he was posted back to Lossiemouth where he trained French aircrew. On one occasion he had the experience of having to rescue one his trainees who actually slipped and put his foot through the aircraft.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Sheffield
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Scotland--Moray
640 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Halifax
military discipline
RAF Leconfield
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Riccall
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/551/8815/PLancasterJ1501.2.jpg
794d475655253509adf90821a41de268
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/551/8815/ALancasterJO170308.1.mp3
0854aad26e9a380b5f2a5cc40af42a9a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lancaster, Jo
John Oliver Lancaster
J O Lancaster
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Lancaster, JO
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with John Oliver 'Jo' Lancaster DFC (1919 - 2019, 948392, 103509 Royal Air Force), photographs and six of his log books. Jo Lancaster completed 54 operations as a pilot with in Wellingtons with 40 Squadron, and after a period of instructing, in Lancasters with 12 Squadron from RAF Wickenby. He became test pilot after the war and was the first person to use a Martin-Baker ejection seat in an emergency.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jo Lancaster and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-18
2017-03-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 8th of March 2017 and I’m in Hassocks with John Lancaster. Jo Lancaster. To talk about his long career in the RAF and as a test pilot afterwards. So, Jo, what are the earliest recollections of life that you have in the family?
JL: I was born in Penrith in Cumberland. In the Lake District. I was very lucky really. I didn’t realise it much at the time. And my first ideas of aeroplanes were drawn entirely from, from books. They were very rarely seen over Cumberland. If they were they were just a spot in the sky making a humming noise but I became very interested in aeroplanes and made models out of the rough materials I could find to hand. I eventually had a flying model with an elastic band which gave me great, great fun but I never actually saw an aeroplane close to until I was about aged sixteen when a Gypsy Moth made a landing due to bad weather in the, in the area. I left school in 1935 aged sixteen and it was during that summer that Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus visited Penrith and I had my first flight in an Avro 504. I remember that well. There was a bench seat going forward and aft of the rear cockpit on which you sat astride and a young lady who I didn’t know was my co-passenger and she just put her head down in the cockpit and screamed throughout the whole flight. [laughs] But I thoroughly enjoyed it. I could see the engine with the tapits, with the bells going up and down. The exposed bells. And it was on that flight that the pilot had a piece of piano wire on the wing tip and picked up bits of cloth from the ground with it. I was completely bitten by flying then but there was little chance of it in the, in the near future. I left school at sixteen and I didn’t want to go to university. In point of fact I couldn’t really because my father’s business had a bad time during the recession and there wasn’t any money left in the kitty but I didn’t mind that. I didn’t want to go to university. I wanted to go out and get amongst mechanical things and an aircraft apprenticeship seemed to be the answer. We considered the RAF apprenticeship scheme, I forget where now. Henlow. Not Henlow.
CB: Halton.
JL: Halton. Considered the RAF apprenticeship scheme at Halton but I wanted to be in the start of the aeroplane flight and not, not the sort of maintenance of it and so I, somehow or other, got a list of aircraft manufacturers in Britain who were offering apprenticeships. Some of them wanted premiums so that put them out but Armstrong Whitworth sounded the best and in due course my father accompanied me down to Coventry for an interview. And I was accepted and joined Armstrong Whitworth in October 1935 starting a five year apprenticeship. The apprenticeship was very good. We had pay and we had one morning and one afternoon off paid time for, to attend the local technical college. [Cough] Can we have a pause?
CB: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: So you’re at Coventry.
JL: The apprenticeship.
CB: And you’re just on the apprenticeship.
JL: Yes. When I — I went down to Coventry to take up my apprenticeship having negotiated some digs through the local paper. I didn’t like the digs we had, I had but [pause - interference] but when I first started there [I feel sure?] it was at the airfield at Wheatley, an old World War One airfield with still the original hangars. I first of all went to, as a stop-gap to the final assembly unit where they were building Hawker Hart trainers. I found everybody very very friendly and one of the almost time expired apprentices, expired apprentices asked me about my digs and I said I didn’t like them and he said there was a vacancy at his digs so I was very glad to go there and I, I was there for over three years. Nearly four years in fact. In, in the original interview it was, it was stressed that there would be no flying involved in the apprenticeship but I had ideas that I would join the, what was then the RAF Class F Reserve which operated very similarly to the Territorial Army. Consisted mostly of a two week summer camp. But on reaching the age of eighteen that coincided with the start of the RAF Volunteer Reserve and I joined straight away and followed that up with the full time ab initio training course at Sywell in July of 1937. Having done that I went back to, to my apprenticeship of course and attended the local RAF, [pause] oh dear. Elementary Reserve Training School at Ansty. That was local to Coventry. During the day, during the weekdays the instructors there were instructing a course of short service, short service commission pilots and at evenings or other times when convenient as at weekends they were training the volunteer reservists. There instead of Tiger Moths as at Sywell we had Avro Cadets with Armstrong Siddeley Genet engines and I converted on to Cadets and then converted on to Hawker Harts. When I was still eighteen I was flying solo on Hawker Harts which was a beautiful aeroplane.
[pause]
JL: I don’t know how to continue.
CB: We’ll stop just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: You mentioned digs. People don’t seem to have digs now so what were they and how did it work?
JL: Well my first digs, which were arranged through the local, by post through the local paper, when I got there I didn’t know the people. I didn’t care for them very much. I was there for really just over a week I think and I was happy to leave when my new acquaintance apprentice, Tony Carpenter suggested I join him in his digs. There I was with a family, or we were with a family. Mrs Hinder who was a widow, widow of a parson and her two children Ruby and Percy. So there were five of us in the house and Mrs Hinder provided us with breakfast, a packed lunch, an evening meal five days a week and breakfast and all the other meals during the weekend at the princely sum of twenty five shillings a week.
CB: Brilliant. Yes. And what about your washing?
JL: I can’t remember. I didn’t do it. They must. It probably went to, I don’t know. I don’t suppose she did it. I don’t remember.
CB: What sort of hours did you work in those days?
JL: We had to be there at 8 o’clock in the morning. We had a half hour’s break for lunch and left at 5 o’clock four days of the week and half past five on Thursdays. And Saturday morning it was 8 o’clock till twelve [cough] I shall have to go and get another drink.
CB: Ok.
[Recording paused]
CB: That’s really useful so when we have the time to talk about the apprenticeship how did the apprenticeship work?
JL: Well as I said I actually started in final assembly but I was only there a couple of weeks. That was a stop-gap and then I was moved to what they called a detailed fitting shop where all the various parts of the aircraft were made using hand tools. And I was there for probably nine months and then I moved to the milling machine shop. Learned how to work a milling machine and then moved on from that to working a, working on a lathe. Learned all about lathe work. Then I went to sub-assembly where units of the aircraft were assembled. The aircraft going through at this time was the Whitley. And then eventually I went on to, moved up to Baginton. The new airfield and the new factory on final assembly and I was there until the — when the war started. I was, I was held back until I joined the — the RAF decided to have me back in January 1940. But I wasn’t actually called up until June of 1940. Incidentally there was a rather amusing episode in May of 1939. Shortly before the war. Everybody knew the war was coming. They had to re-introduce conscription and I was a bullseye for the first age group and I had to go and have an interview with a little [petrie?] army major so I lost no time in telling him I didn’t want to join his army and I was a trained engineer and a trained pilot and he said, ‘Well you’ll be, you’ll be a dead cert for the Royal Army Ordinance Corps.’ And why he said that and not the Royal Engineers I don’t know. But anyway the war started and in no time at all I received a letter containing a traveling warrant to Budbrooke Barracks and a postal order for the four shillings in advance of pay to join the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
CB: Oh.
JL: So I dashed down to, and by this time they had a combined recruiting centre in Coventry. They’d taken over a skating rink, a roller skating rink. And the air force recruiting officer was no help at all but the naval recruiting officer was a Chief Petty Officer Brown and I went and told him my problem and he said, ‘Well we’ll get you out of that,’ and he took me on for the navy on, on deferred service. So I then got a letter saying please return the travelling warrant and postal order. You need not now apply, attend Budbrooke Barracks. So whilst, whilst I was on deferred service for the navy the RAF changed their mind and decided to have me back and, but I didn’t actually re-join until about June of 1940 starting with a six weeks course at ITW Initial Training Wing at Paignton in Devon. And then we were all disbursed to [pause] God. [pause] Sorry, this is my brain. [pause]
CB: From ITW you went to Initial Training Wing.
JL: Well it was Flying Training School.
CB: Yes but at Sywell again.
JL: The first one was Sywell.
CB: Yes.
JL: But this time, after the war started it was Desford near Leicester
CB: Oh yes.
WT: Yes. Desford. Yes.
JO: Yes. Yes. We were, we were all divided up. I went, I went to Desford with some others. During the, during this ab initio course the Battle of Britain was in full swing and of course we all wanted to be fighter pilots and I was in fact selected to be a fighter pilot and sent to number five elementary flying, 5 Flying Training School at Sealand which had Miles Masters and there I was going to be a fighter pilot. I trained on Miles Masters. Later — later in the — we were down, we moved from Sealand down to Ternhill in Shropshire and continued training there but the, during the winter ‘40/41 it was very bad. The training — some of us got well behind and I was on a course of about forty eight divided into four flights of twelve and our flight was the only one, was the only one who succeeded in doing the night flying part of the syllabus on Masters and at the end of the course the whole flight was posted to bomber OTUs whilst the rest went to fighters. And I went to Lossiemouth, 20 OTU as I remember and was converted on to Wellingtons. I was very cross about this at the time but in the event I think it was the right thing to do. When I got to Lossiemouth we were next door to [pause] oh dear [pause] sorry. A Whitley OTU.
WT: Wycombe?
JL: Hmmn?
WT: Wycombe
JL: No. A Whitley OTU up in Scotland. Oh God. I’m sorry.
CB: Was it on, was it a coastal OTU or was it a Bomber Command OTU?
JL: It was a bombing.
CB: Whitleys. Yes.
JL: I was at Lossiemouth converting on to Wellingtons.
CB: Yes.
JL: At 20 OTU.
CB: Yes.
JL: And there was another OTU only about ten miles away with Whitleys. It was well known. It’s still open.
CB: Yes. Kinloss.
JL: Kinloss. Yes.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
JL: Sorry. Thank you.
CB: It’s ok.
JL: I got an interview with the group captain of Lossiemouth called Group Captain Smyth-Piggott and told him that I had been building Whitleys and knew all about them and that I’d like to convert. To transfer to Whitleys. And he wouldn’t have it so I was stuck with Wellingtons. And so we were paired off as pilots with first and second pilot. I was the first pilot and my second pilot was Derek Townsend and having done our conversion training we then had to be crewed up and we were all ushered into a hangar with the right proportions of pilots, navigators, wireless operators and air gunners. And Derek and I wandered around looking at people we’d never seen before and we eventually finished up with a Canadian navigator Glen Leach, a very Welsh wireless operator called Jack Crowther, another Canadian front gunner and a New Zealand rear gunner. Now, at that time I’d never met a Canadian before and I was just, I was surprised they spoke like people we saw in the cinema. But I hardly knew where New Zealand was. Anyway, we went down to that, to the pub in Lossiemouth that night and we were blood brothers from then for the rest of our lives.
[pause]
CB: Right. Stop there for a mo.
[Recording paused]
JL: What had happened.
CB: At Desford. Yeah.
JL: At Desford. We did a — went off and did a flight. When we landed he said, ‘You haven’t forgotten how to fly.’
CB: But you still had to go through.
JL: I still had to do the whole thing through.
CB: The whole thing.
JL: Yes.
CB: Because that’s the way the process ran. Can we just go back to your VR time because you might have continued with that but how long were you in the VR, flying and what caused you to cease?
JL: Well I as I say I was being converted on to — [pause] Oh God.
CB: On to the Hart. Yeah.
JL: Cadets.
CB: Oh the Cadet. Yes.
JL: And Harts. I was flying Harts at a very tender age and I was the ace. I thought I was the ace of the base. And one Sunday after a very bad period of weather where there was no flying we had a very fine Sunday morning in April 1938 and I dashed out to Ansty. There were no Harts available but I was given a, alloted a Cadet to go and do aerobatics and off I went. There was something wrong with the engine actually. It tended to choke and had to be re-started. I wasn’t even bothered with that. I went off and I did some aerobatics. I got doing a slow roll. There was a fire extinguisher under the dashboard and the instrument panel and on the final turn with full top rudder the fire extinguisher fell out and got behind the rudder bar so when I got right way up I got a whole lot of left rudder on. I managed to sort of kick it halfway through the fabric so that I could get steering rudder and instead of going back to Ansty as I should have done I became insane and landed at Wheatley. Well it was a Sunday so there was only a sort of a maintenance man there. When he walked up I gave him the fire extinguisher and took off again. And then, then I, my fellow digs chap, Tony Carpenter, he couldn’t join the VR because of his eyesight but he bought all sort of what we would call a microlight called a dart splitter mouse and he had it at a field near Kenilworth and I then went over to him and did a few aerobatics there. Then I did what was actually a perfectly legal exercise. A simulated forced landing where you from two thousand feet or whatever you throttle the engine back and did an approach on to a suitable field, opened it up and go around again at the end. I did what the, I opened up and the engines stopped and I went through a hedge so that’s rather spoiled things and I was thrown out. You’ll find it in there.
WT: Gosh.
JL: I wasn’t thrown out for going through the hedge. I was thrown out for doing low level aerobatics.
CB: Ah
JL: That was because very very close by was Kenilworth Golf Club and playing golf that morning was a chap called Tom Chapman who was a director of Armstrong Siddeley’s who was hand in glove with Armstrong Whitworth’s and he, he reported it. [laughs] Tom Chapman. Bless his heart.
CB: You never became friends.
JL: I never met him.
[pause]
CB: Right. So we’ve got to the stage that you’re at Lossiemouth and you’ve crewed up. This crewing up — could you just explain how it actually happened? The process.
JL: Well Derek and I just wandered around looking at people’s brevets and we got together a navigator. We found this Canadian with a, he had the O brevet.
CB: Yeah.
JL: He was very proud of that. The Observer. Asked him and he came along and we continued the process till we got the full crew. And we all, we all agreed to meet in the pub that night and we were thick as thieves from that time on.
CB: So how long were you together for?
JL: Well from Lossiemouth, when we were crewed up we did a number of cross country exercises [cough] oh dear. To finish the course. Air firing and practice bombing and then we were posted as a crew to 40 Squadron at Wyton. So we all went off on leave and we all arrived at Wyton on the appointed day only to be told that we weren’t supposed to be at Wyton. We were supposed to be at Alconbury. The satellite. And so we got a service bus from Wyton to Alconbury and signed in there and we were promptly all put on a charge for arriving late. And we were, what are the — ? [pause] I forget the expression was. The lowest. The lowest telling off. So that wasn’t a very good start because we didn’t like the WingCo much anyway. He wasn’t a very popular chap. A [jock?]. Wing Commander Davey. Anyway, we were, then Derek, Derek left us to join another crew and we were given a captain in the form of a Jim Taylor who — he’d already done a lot of ops and he took us on our first eight ops and then he left us. He was, he was screened and I took over as captain and we were given a series of second pilots from then on. And we succeeded in surviving thirty operations including a daylight on Brest. And then we, then we all split up.
CB: So this is in a Wellington.
JL: Yes. And I was posted to a Wellington OTU as a, as an instructor [coughs] oh dear. I’m sorry about this.
CB: Ok. Would you like to stop for a mo?
[Recording paused]
CB: So can we just talk about the tour? The aircraft was a Wellington. Which model?
JL: Yes. Throughout this period all my flying was on Wellington 1Cs which was powered by Bristol Pegasus Mark xviii and with these it was very very underpowered. It was supposed to be able to fly on one engine but in fact it couldn’t because it had non-feathering propellers.
CB: Oh.
JL: Fortunately the engines were fairly reliable. The most common problem would be that one of the rocker boxes would break loose from the cylinder head which introduced, which put that cylinder out of use and caused it to be, to vibrate rather a lot. That happened from time to time. But at least you had the use of most of the engine.
CB: So you couldn’t really feather. You couldn’t feather the prop.
JL: No. No.
CB: So you kept it running did you or you stopped it? The drag was huge.
JL: Well if you lost the engine it just, just windmilled.
CB: Yeah. Right.
JL: Caused a lot of drag.
CB: So of the ops, one of them was to Brest. What was that like?
JL: There was one occasion when we went off. Actually it was fortunately in daylight and when we got up to about seventeen hundred feet and the oil, the oil pressure on one engine dropped to zero. I looked out and there was oil all over the engine but fortunately we were just within a mile or so of Wyton and I was able to drop straight down and land in Wyton complete with a full load of petrol and bombs. But had, had it been dark the situation would have been very different. It was too late to bale out and we had a full load of bombs and it was dark.
CB: In circumstances where you’re still, you’ve still got your full load of bombs what was the proper procedure?
JL: Sorry?
CB: In the circumstances where there was difficulty with the aircraft and you had a full load of bombs what was the proper procedure as far as the bomb load was concerned? Were you supposed to jettison or keep them?
JL: Well normally only jettison over the sea.
CB: Right.
JL: But of course you had to be in full control of the aircraft. If you lost an engine and you weren’t able to, to maintain flight you’d probably leave them where they were.
CB: So thinking of the rest of the tour how did the ops go on that? You had a bit of variety. They were all at night were they?
JL: All except one. The 24th of July 1941 there was a major daylight operation on Brest in which we were involved. The squadron sent six aircraft in two lots of three. The other three lost, lost one aircraft in a direct hit but our three all survived. Knocked about but still working.
CB: So the other one was lost to flak.
JL: Yes.
CB: What operating height were you using then?
JL: Twelve and a half thousand feet.
CB: And what bomb load were you carrying?
JL: Probably five. I can’t tell you. I didn’t record these. Probably five hundred pound armour piercing but it was all a waste of time as I discovered later. Much later. I visited Lorient after the war and went and saw the U-boat pens there and none of our bombs would ever do anything to them. They had a huge roof about two metres thick and then a false roof on top of that. You could see where bombs had hit it. There was just a little pock mark. That’s all. We were all wasting our time. I don’t know what our intelligence people were doing. Thinking about.
CB: So for the other ops then. These were at night. Where? Where were they going? Where were the targets?
JL: Mostly in Germany but we did one to [pause] oh Christ, I’m sorry.
CB: Was it a port?
JL: On the Baltic.
CB: Right. Kiel or Wilhelmshaven. Bremen.
JL: Further east.
CB: Ah.
JL: Poland.
CB: Oh. Danzig.
JL: Oh God. I’m sorry. My brain’s going on strike.
CB: Stettin.
JL: Stettin. Thank you.
CB: Right. So that was a port. And what were you after there? The shipping. Were you?
JL: The port. Yes. That was a long one. That’s well over nine hours. We had overload tanks.
CB: The overload tanks were jettisonable or were they inside the aircraft?
JL: Oh no. They were, they were in the bomb bay.
CB: Oh right.
JL: So we had a reduced bomb load.
CB: And this is the early part of the war so how were you getting on in terms of navigation and pinpointing the target?
JL: There was very little to help us with navigation. We had a choice of dead reckoning and any pinpointing we could get. At night, providing there was no cloud, water could usually be seen. The River Rhine. We used to get quite a bit of haze over the Ruhr but you could usually pick out the Rhine. All the coastlines and harbours. We did have Hamburg two or three times. Bremen. Wilhelmshaven. Berlin. Most of them were to the Ruhr though. I think we did [pause], oh God my brain.
CB: So there was flak all the time but to what extent were there —?
JL: Nearly all the time. Yes.
CB: What about night fighters? Were they?
JL: We were attacked. Yes. On the way back from Berlin actually. We were. Berlin was clear but there was, on the way back we encountered cloud and we were being shot at through the cloud pretty well continuously. And we couldn’t understand this because we shouldn’t have been but what had happened was that the forecast wind which was all we had had changed and they’d taken us north and we were actually going down via Hamburg, Bremen, Emden but eventually there was a break in the clouds and as I looked down I could see the causeway across the mouth of the Zuiderzee and as I reported this and obviously everybody, including the rear gunner, was looking down and it was just at that moment that a burst of fire went right over the top of us followed by an ME110. And we didn’t see it. We were lucky. But anyway, anyway we went down a very steep spiral and this 110 tried to follow us and Keith Coleman, our New Zealand rear gunner got a good shot at it and we both went into cloud and we never knew what happened to it but after the war some people checked up on it and there were no night fighters shot down that night but one inexplicably crashed on landing and it’s just possible it might have been the one.
CB: Because you’d damaged it. Yeah. Now, in those days had the corkscrew evasion system operated or did you make up your own technique for avoiding a fighter?
JL: Well, only, only did corkscrewing if you were, if you were attacked. In my second tour actually it was different. It was my own idea. I kept changing course and height. Five hundred feet up. Five hundred feet up. Turned left, then right. Pretty well all the time because the eighty eight millimetre guns were radar controlled and they were bloody good. So by doing that we were never actually seriously shot at. Not enroute.
CB: You mentioned that you had various co-pilots. Why was that? Were they being prepared for captaincy themselves or what?
JL: Yes. They were doing their training before taking over their own crew. I’m very sorry.
[Recording paused]
JL: That was the daylight raid on, on Brest I think.
CB: Oh. We talked about the 110 just now but what, on what other occasion were you attacked by a fighter?
JL: On the daylight raid on Brest in July there were several 110s about. Sorry. Correction. 109s about.
CB: Yes.
JL: But there were a lot of Wellingtons about and they were all, they were all firing at these 109s and one went, certainly went down because the pilot baled out but all the others tend to claim it. [laughs]
CB: Right. Is that your —
JL: In retrospect it’s impossible to say who hit it.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
JL: We had, we had beam guns but both my gunners, front and rear were blasting away and we had two beam gunners with Vickers, Vickers VJOs fitted up and the second, our second pilot and the wireless op were blasting away with theirs as well and of course all the Wellingtons were probably doing the same thing so the sky was absolutely full of CO3.
CB: Right. So in your flying training at Ternhill what sort of people were there?
JL: We had two American air force officers. Sam Morinello and the other one was called Galbraith. But of course they left us to join their Eagle Squadrons. We also had Neville Duke.
CB: Oh right.
JL: And we had David. Oh God, here we go again [pause] oh I’m sorry. My brain’s —
CB: It’s alright. That’s interesting Neville Duke because he took the world speed record in the Hunter.
JL: Yes.
CB: Didn’t he? In the fifties.
JL: He was also on the same course at ITW.
CB: Was he? Yeah. What about these Americans then. What were they like? Because they weren’t in the war and they’d volunteered to join?
JL: Yes. Well most Americans joined the Royal Canadian Air Force but these two didn’t. Sam Morinello had done a lot of parachute jumps. Just what he’d, they’d been doing. I think they both had pilot training. Why they didn’t join the Canadian Air Force I don’t know but I suppose this was the — they wanted to be certain to get to the American squadrons.
CB: So they were posted to the Eagle Squadrons.
JL: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Yes. They were. I think they distinguished themselves fairly well later on.
CB: And how did they fit into the general way of things because they were a different culture?
JL: Oh well. Very well. I’m trying to think of the name of this. His father was chief. Well his father was a pre-war, a World War One pilot. He became a chief designer at Bristol and he had four sons. He was killed in 1938 flying one of his own design and the [pause] and the three sons, I think it was three sons. Might have been more. So, anyway, two of them were killed early in the war and this David. He was just one of the boys. Happy. We knew nothing at all about his background at all.
CB: Oh dear.
JL: But he, unfortunately he was killed as well. Oh God. The name, name, name. [I must have written it?] I bet it’s in there.
CB: Ok. Right. We’ll stop just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: So going back to the time when you finished at 40 Squadron. Where were posted and why?
JL: I was posted to Wellesbourne Mountford for instructional duties. Wellesbourne Mountford being Number 22 OTU. Operational Training Unit. Still with Wellington 1Cs. I was attached to the conversion flight. I was converting them to fly the Wellington after which they did their navigational exercises. I didn’t like the job at all. I’m not born, I wasn’t born to be an instructor and I was very unhappy about it. Not only that but it involved night flying details and in the winter the night flying practice was divided up into four sessions being 6 till 9, 9 till 12, 12 till 3 and 3 till 6 and if you were on a late show you know you had to be out at 3 o’clock on a cold, miserable morning and go and do three hours circuits and landings and that was not very funny. I discovered that there was, at Central Flying School, they ran a course for OTU instructors so I asked to go on that which I did but it didn’t help. It didn’t help me much. When I went back to Wellesbourne I was still doing conversion training. Then in July another OTU opened at what is now East Midlands Airport.
CB: Castle Donington.
JL: Castle Donington. That had just opened and I was posted there. When I got there there were four or five other people there and no aeroplanes. So we had a nice time for a while. Then we collected some aeroplanes and started training. Right. Now we start. Originally I was on conversion training but then I went on to the navigation side and I was sent on a cross country with a, a five hour cross country, with a pupil crew and when I got — this was in October ‘42 and when I got back I found I was rostered to go on what they called a bullseye that night which is an exercise cooperating with the Observer Corps and the ground defences. I went to the mess and there was no food and there was no option but to go back down to the flight and took over yet another pupil crew I’d never met before. We went off on this bullseye. We got, we got over the Solway Firth, we were actually going to North Wales but via the Solway Firth and we hit icy conditions. Ice was [cough] ice was banging away on the side. I discovered that the wireless operator had declared his apparatus unserviceable. I’d no idea what the navigator was like. I was frozen stiff so I decided to go home. We were over ten tenths cloud as they called it and so I flew east for a long long long way before letting down safely and then found my way back to, to the airfield. The next day I was on the carpet for abandoning the bullseye. I explained everything but it didn’t cut any ice. This wing commander who hadn’t done a thing I think for himself demanded to see my logbook and in my logbook I’d cut out a little comic thing from a flight magazine where the caption was, “All the way from Hamburg on one engine,” and of course it was a chap sitting astride just an engine and this wing commander took exception to this and told me to take it off. By this time I told him I didn’t want to take it out. And we departed. We departed the worst of friends and very shortly after that a posting came through for me to 150 Squadron at Snaith which I quite welcomed because I was absolutely sick of OTUs. When I got to Snaith the wing commander said, ‘Who are you and what have you come for?’ So I said, ‘I don’t know why I’ve come, sir. [laughs] I’ve just been posted.’ And he said, ‘Well what do you want to do?’ I said, ‘I want to go on a Lancaster squadron.’ And so I did about three flights in their aircraft. 150 Squadron’s. They had Wellingtons 3s by then with a Hercules. And then I was posted to, [cough] oh dear. I’m sorry. 12 Squadron at Wickenby. Just outside Lincoln. When I got to Wickenby they still had Wellingtons but they were scheduled to train on to Lancs. I did three operations with Wellingtons. Then we were stood down for six weeks to transfer. Convert on to Lancasters.
CB: We’ll stop there just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
JL: And I think a couple of squadrons in 5 Group. That’s all there were at that time.
CB: So how did the conversion process operate? Bearing in mind there were no HCUs.
JL: Conversion on to Lancasters? Well we had a couple of pilots seconded to us. [coughs] I’m so sorry. Let me take a cough pill.
CB: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
JL: Between the Frisian Islands and the mainland.
CB: We’re just talking about your ops on the Wellington before you moved to Lancaster. So one was Hamburg.
JL: Not many on 40 Squadron.
CB: No.
JL: Nor at the OTU.
CB: No.
JL: But when I went back to 12 Squadron as I say we still had Wellingtons and I took over the flight commander’s crew as a going concern. We did one mining operation between Terschelling Island and the mainland and one on the approach to St Nazaire. In the estuary. That was a timed run for an island. I think in between was Hamburg. Bombing.
CB: And with mines you couldn’t drop from too great a height because it would shatter the mine so what height did you go?
JL: I think it was five hundred feet and a hundred and sixty miles an hour.
[pause]
CB: And you operated in miles an hour rather than knots did you?
JL: Yes. Incidentally on that run when I went to St Nazaire I decided to go across Brittany. Low down. It was dark but it was clear enough to fly at two or three hundred feet and I saw quite clearly somebody on the ground with a lantern and they swung it around in a circle as we went past.
CB: Exhilarating at low level at night was it?
JL: Well I think I probably thought it was safer than going higher because the guns couldn’t get at you.
CB: So that was a lone sortie. You weren’t going out as a squadron at the same time.
JL: Oh no. They were all lone sorties.
CB: Right.
JL: Except the, except the daylight on Brest.
CB: Right. So after those three then you do the conversion on to the Lancasters. So what was the process there?
JL: We spent quite a little time learning about the Lancaster on the ground and then we had two pilots from 460 Squadron attached to us and they quite quickly converted us. It didn’t take very long. A Lancaster was quite easy to fly and then we took over our crews and spent some time.
CB: So when you moved to Lancasters the four engines all had an engineer. How did that selection work? Did you have all the crew with you?
JL: Well we had, oh a suitable number of mid-upper gunners and engineers arrived and we didn’t choose them. They were just allocated.
CB: So —
JL: And with a full crew then we started doing navigation exercises, a lot of which, much to our concern, were low level formation.
CB: Daylight or night?
JL: Daylight. We didn’t like the idea very much. In the end we didn’t do any daylights.
CB: So what time are we talking about now? 1942.
JL: 1942. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: My first operation on Lancs was a mining operation. To Norway. Haugesundfjord fjord
[pause]
CB: What was the, that was just in the fjord. Just in the entrance was it? Or close to the shipping?
JL: It was more or less parallel to the coast as I remember.
CB: Right.
JL: It wasn’t, it wasn’t very well defended at all. Searchlights came up and a bit of light flak and my gunners responded quickly and, and they put the lights out again.
CB: What sort of height were you doing your mining?
JL: Five hundred feet.
CB: That was also five hundred was it? Right. Ok. And then the rest of the ops. On that tour how many did you do? With 12 squadron?
JL: I think I did twenty two [pause] on Lancasters. Did thirty on Wellingtons. I did the two thousand bomber raids. And then another twenty two [coughs], another twenty two on Lancs which made fifty four I think.
CB: So that normal tour would be thirty. So why did you stop at twenty two?
JL: Oh well I’d done, I did the fifty fourth operation which was to La Spezia in Italy. And the next morning I was called in by the wing commander. And wondering what I’d done wrong, and he said that a new edict had come through that a second tour was now twenty operations. Not twenty. And as I’d done twenty I was finished as of then.
CB: Right. Not thirty. Yeah.
JL: So I finished very suddenly at fifty four.
CB: So what was the next move from there?
JL: Well I wanted to be a test pilot and I thought the best way of starting was getting a posting to a maintenance unit. The wing commander. Wing commander. [pause] Oh dear. Wood. Wing Commander Wood was very very helpful because my first posting after having finished the second tour was back to Wellington 1Cs at Harwell.
CB: Oh right.
JL: And I complained very very loudly about that so WinCo Wood took me off that and made me sort of supernumerary on the squadron. I was talking to new crews and doing odd jobs and then I couldn’t go on forever so they gave me a posting to the Group Gunnery Flight at Binbrook. 1481 flight. I was, they had a Wellington flight and a Martinet flight — the target towers. I was in charge of the Wellington flight and I had a right royal time there. I was my own boss and we did as we liked. But then a posting came through for me to Boscombe Down. A&AEE which I was rather frightened about that. I wasn’t sure if I was up to it. In the end it was fine. Incidentally, the posting to Harwell, another second tour pilot finished shortly after me [pause] Once again his name’s gone. But he took it because his wife lived near Harwell and within about six weeks he was dead. The engine caught fire and the thing folded. What was his name? All these names are in there.
CB: Yeah.
JL: In ten minutes time I can tell you.
CB: Ok. We can pick it up. So now you’re on the way to Boscombe Down.
JL: Yes. I went to Boscombe Down. I was posted to, there was an armament flight and a performance testing flight. I went to the armament flight and the flight commander gave me a ride in a B, oh dear, B25.
CB: Mitchell.
JL: Mitchell. Mitchell. And that was it. I didn’t have any dual. You just got in to an aeroplane and flew it.
CB: Right.
JL: And that’s just, just what happened. And I amassed a total of, I think eventually a hundred and forty four types.
CB: Really. So what formal process did they have for introducing you to test flying?
JL: None at all then. I was just posted in, as I said given a ride in a Mitchell because I’d never been in an American aircraft before. And that was it. I flew them all. Liberators, Fortresses. What was the, was it a B26?
CB: Marauder.
JL: Marauder. That was a bit of a handful.
CB: Was it?
JL: Very high wing loading.
CB: And when you were doing the flying did you have people with you on instruments? Who were monitoring instruments? What was actually happening at Boscombe Down?
JL: Most of my flying was done for armament purposes and we had armament technical officers. Sort of bombing and gunning and we were supervising the tests. We were just drivers really.
CB: Yeah.
JL: My first job, my very first job when I got down there was to drop a four thousand pounder from fifteen hundred feet. Well in the, in Bomber Command the quoted safety height for dropping a four thousand pounder is six thousand feet. Really it was nothing. You felt, well you heard and felt just a little bump. And all this was, they were doing a lot of tests in preparation for what they called second TAF. Second Technical Airforce for the invasion.
CB: So this is army support effectively. So the four thousand pounder’s the cookie which is just a barrel.
JL: Oh yes.
CB: And did you feel there was some danger in doing that? Or did you prove there wasn’t?
JL: Well as I say we’d been told the safety height was six thousand feet and we were sent off to do it at fifteen hundred but I had no problem.
CB: Which was what they wanted to know.
JL: They were measuring it.
CB: Where would you, where was the range where you dropped those?
JL: Lyme Bay. Just off Lyme Regis.
CB: Yeah. What other things were you dropping? Or was there a lot of gunnery involved as well with the fifty seven millimetre.
JL: A bit of both. I had another job with a Mosquito. Oh incidentally. Mosquito. This was typical Boscombe at the time. There was quite a lot of social drinking went on in the evenings and one of the chaps who was, I was very fond of as an armament officer called Shepherd. He was a school master in civil life but he was involved with the rocket. RPs rocket projectiles which was flown by the [pause] oh God.
CB: The Mosquitos and the Beaufighters.
JL: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Anyway, one night he said, ’Would you like to fly a Mosquito?’ So I said, ‘Yes please.’ And the next day we just walked out to this Mosquito. Let’s say 8RPs. Four under each wing. And I got in. He got in behind me and we went off. That was literally true.
CB: And you’d never flown a two engine.
JL: I’d never flown a Mosquito before.
CB: No.
JL: And I’d certainly never fired rockets but there was quite an art in that because he was telling me what to do all the time. And then another job I had with the Mosquito was — I think they were probably four thousand pound casings filled with [pause] oh dear my brain. Flammable stuff.
CB: Oh yes. Napalm.
JL: What?
CB: Napalm.
JL: Napalm. Yes and this was, this was done we had a range at Crichel Down which, which was, I guess, sometime after the war and low level and so I went off and dropped one of these things at low level. Went back and landed and they phoned up and said, ‘You’re too high.’ So I had another one. I think we did this four times. Eventually I was flying just as low as I possibly dare.
CB: Was this in a Mosquito again?
JL: Yes. And then I saw some cine film of it afterwards but to see this Mosquito scuttling along just above the treetops and a great flame drops the, a great flame went up like a clutching hand way up above the Mosquito. Came down just missing its tail. It was quite frightening to watch and I did that four times.
CB: Blimey. This is using the four thousand pounder casing.
JL: That’s what it looked like. Yes.
CB: When you were doing your four thousand pounder at fifteen hundred feet what plane were you using to drop?
JL: The Lanc.
CB: That was the Lanc. Right. Ok. What other exciting planes? Did you fly single seaters at Boscombe Down?
JL: Oh yes. You could fly anything you wanted. Just go along and say, ‘Please can I have a go at this.’ And you did. There were, well I’d already flown Spitfires. I don’t know where they got that from but I pinched a Spitfire.
CB: Oh did you?
JL: At Binbrook.
CB: You felt it needed exercising.
JL: Yes. You haven’t, you haven’t got on to this one.
CB: No. Go on.
JL: Well —
CB: Right.
JL: 1 Group. They had a, I think he was a New Zealander with a Spitfire. He used to go around all the squadrons doing fighter affiliation. He came. He used to come to Binbrook about once a week I should think. Every time he came I used to say, ‘Give us a go in your Spitfire.’ And eventually he said, ‘Well I’m going to lunch. I know nothing about it.’ So I took that as a have a go.
CB: Have a go.
JL: Yeah. So I went off and did fifteen minutes in this Spitfire and the station commander was Hughie Edwards.
CB: Oh right. [laughs]
JL: Well actually I got on well with him and just a couple of days later, I can’t remember what he said but it was just a very few words just to let me know that he knew about it and having done that I thought well I’ll have another go. So the next time this chap came in I had another go. And then at Kirton Lindsey, not very far away there was a Spitfire OTU. So I went off in — Hughie Edwards used to have a Tiger Moth. He used to let me fly that and I just introduced an Aussie, Aussie wireless op of 460 Squadron. So we went over to Kirton Lindsey and said we wanted to fly Spitfires and they said, ‘Well you’ll have to use Hibaldstow. Our satellite.’ So I went over to Hibaldstow. Now. I can’t for the life of me think how this ever happened but I walked in there and said, ‘Please sir, I have flown a Spitfire before. Can I have another go?’ And then he gave me a Spitfire and I went off for forty five minutes. They’d never seen me before. I’d never seen them before. But this is true. It’s true.
CB: Was this the OTU for the Eagle Squadron?
JL: No. I don’t think so.
CB: No.
JL: I don’t know what it was. It was just a Spitfire OTU.
CB: Yeah. Right. Amazing.
JL: I mean authorising. Who the hell would authorise a flight in a Spitfire from somebody they’d never seen before?
CB: What rank were you at that time?
JL: Flight lieutenant. [pause] Yeah. Lots of things like that happened to me. It’s hard to believe them now.
CB: Yeah.
JL: I guarantee it. I don’t know how you would ever prove it now but [poor old Max Kiddie?] the Aussies. He died. Well most Aussies seem to die young. Most of the ones I knew did.
CB: Yeah. Back at —
JL: Hughie Edwards only made sixty eight.
CB: Yes. Back at Boscombe Down you’ve got all these variety of planes and you’re in the armament flight. So on the single engine planes what are you testing?
JL: Mostly guns. Things like the Avenger I remember, which was quite a nice aeroplane. We didn’t have many single engines. Only for our own test purposes but I used to go around and fly other people’s.
CB: So the Grumman Avenger was — you were doing that for the navy were you?
JL: Yes.
CB: Right.
JL: Yes I remember the Avenger. The Avenger, I think, yes. I can’t remember what. We did anything. And we were all much the same. We were entitled to one day off a week but nobody ever took it. All that happened when there was a non-flying day we all went into Salisbury. Otherwise every day was the same.
CB: Yeah. What other twin-engined aircraft did you fly at Boscombe Down?
JL: I don’t know.
CB: Did you have a Whirlwind for instance?
JL: No. No. Unfortunately not. I liked the look of a Whirlwind. They had the, they had the Wyvern there but it never went into production. It was a sort of larger, uglier looking one.
CB: Wellington.
JL: I’ve made a list somewhere of what I’ve flown.
CB: Ok. So after Boscombe Down. Then what? We’re now getting to what? What time of the war?
JL: Well the Empire Test Pilot School had started and had number one course for only about eight or ten people on that. And they had number two course. That was going on during the time I was there. They were based at Boscombe. I applied for number three course which began on the 13th March 1945 and actually I’d been, I was scheduled to drop the, I can’t remember whether it was the Tallboy or the Grand Slam but the weather had been duff and the 13th of March came up and that was the date of DPDS started so I had to give up that and a chap called Steve Dawson did the dropping of it. But of course 514. Oh my brain. Come on. The Dambusters.
CB: Yeah. 617.
JL: 617. That’s better. They already had them of course.
CB: So talking about Tallboy and Grand Slam. How were you testing those and where?
JL: Dropping them on Ashley Walk in the New Forest.
CB: So did they, they were looking for penetration were they? Or accuracy of flight? What were they looking at?
JL: I can’t remember.
CB: Because they were pinpoint delivery bombs.
JL: Probably the mechanics of dropping it. Yes that would be it. No point in dropping it on Ashley Walk except to make a big hole.
CB: Were they testing the ability of the two bombs to penetrate concrete?
JL: I don’t think so. I think 617 squadron were already doing that. They did the Tirpitz and that thing in France.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Coupole or whatever they called it.
CB: Coupole. Yes. They did a good job on that.
JL: Did a good job of the Tirpitz too.
CB: Yeah. And V3. Tallboys. The guns. The guns in the hillside. So did you, after doing your dropping did they ask you to look at the result of what you’d done?
JL: I can’t remember that. No.
[pause]
JL: I had a wonderful time at Boscombe. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
CB: I bet. So you talked about ETPS the Test Pilot School so what happened there. Number three course.
JL: I was on number three course. Yes. And of course the end of the war came. Chief test pilots round the industry had a habit of coming down and taking lunch with the senior officers and Cyril Feather who was the chief test pilot at Boulton Paul wanted a pilot and somebody suggested me. And I was a bit flattered and thought it would be a good idea so I accepted. And at the end of the course actually we were all being, getting the future sorted out. I had applied for a permanent commission. In the event they didn’t issue permanent commissions immediately. They did what amounted to short service. They didn’t call it short service. Four year contracts.
CB: Yeah. Just Short Service Commissions.
JL: It was a short service commission but they called it something else.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Extended Service Commission
CB: Oh right.
JL: In the event they only issued Extended Service Commissions and I took this offer of Boulton Paul’s but when I got there the chief test pilot engineer was there. He didn’t know I was coming. He was a bit put out understandably. Anyway, we got on alright but there was nothing to do there and I went to ETPS course dinner and we had a number four course I suppose which at this time it was [pause] oh dear [pause] somewhere near Milton Keynes
CB: Oh Cranfield.
JL: Cranfield. Thank you. I’m sorry about this.
CB: That’s alright.
JL: And the Groupie — I can’t think of his name now. A little chap. Said, ‘Are you happy where you are?’ I said, ‘No sir.’ He said, ‘Well, Saunders Roe are looking for somebody. Well, Saunders Roe suited me very well because apart from being on the Isle of Wight my wife lived near Winchester and so I I left Baulton Paul and went to Saunders Roe and [cough] oh dear. I don’t know why my throat’s doing this.
CB: Do you want a break? We’ll just stop for a mo?
[Recording paused]
CB: Now, one thing I didn’t ask you about the Boscombe Down range was you were actually testing American aircraft as well as British.
JL: Oh yes.
CB: One of the night fighters, American night fighters was called Black Widow.
JL: Yes. Flew that.
CB: What was that like?
JL: It was not a very pleasant aircraft to fly really. I think it had remote controlled guns for even firing. It was alright but not a, not a very brilliant aircraft. Yes. The P51.
[pause]
CB: Right. Thank you. So we’re now at Saunders Roe. So what was the task there?
JL: Well they didn’t have a proper pilot there but chief designers [unclear] had been at the fleet air arm. He was doing a little bit. There were, at the time they were building Sea Otters and refurbishing Walruses, the jet flying boat fighter was on the docks. The SRA1. And in the distance was the Princess.
CB: Right.
JL: And so I just joined in flying the Walruses and the Sea Otters and then they, they sent me on a Sunderland conversion course to Pembroke Dock which was very nice. So I had the full OTU course on the Sunderland. Now what had happened at Saunders Roe was that Short Brothers — where did they used to be? On the Thames.
CB: At Chatham. Rochester.
JL: Rochester. Stafford Cripps, who was a trade minister or something, nationalised Short’s and sent them to Belfast. They never did like that including the chairman Sir Arthur Gouge. So he carried these down to Saunders Roe and he was, he was followed by a whole lot of other people including a general manager, Browning and a whole lot and they just didn’t want to be at Belfast. And whilst I was away at Pembroke Dock I got a letter from the managing director [laughs] Captain Clark saying that Geoffrey Tyson would be joining the company as chief test pilot. Well he was one of the Short’s. Well he was chief test pilot at Short’s. I thought well that’s fair enough. He knows his stuff. I don’t. And so I wrote back and said, “Yes, that’s fine by me sir.” And when I got back I met Geoffrey. He was the most peculiar chap. He wasn’t the least interested in me, my background. He didn’t want to see my logbooks. Nothing. He knew nothing about me. And I found it very hard to get on with him. He hadn’t any sense of humour, he didn’t drink, he didn’t smoke. But we staggered along and he did the first few flights on the SRA1 and then he let me have a go. Well then, well we, we didn’t get on at all. Face it. We shared the same birthday but he was twelve years older than me.
CB: Right.
JL: And —
CB: In flying boat terms he was a cold fish.
JL: Then he, he told me one day that John Booth, who was another Short pilot was going to join as his number two so obviously that was my invitation to leave. So I rang up Eric Franklin at Armstrong Whitworth and got a job back there straight away and that was, that was the end of the things. I flew the SRA1 at Farnborough along with several other do’s.
CB: Just to put this —
JL: He was a most peculiar fellow.
CB: To put this into a context if I may. The SRA1 was the first jet powered Flying Boat.
JL: Yes.
CB: So what was the concept and what was it like?
JL: I think the idea was it would be handy in the Pacific area where they wouldn’t have to have a runway. It was quite a powerful machine with four twenty millimetre cannon.
CB: It was a fighter.
JL: It was a fighter. Yes. And although it was a bit bulky for a fighter it was quite lively but of course the Pacific war ended and there was no more call for it. Three were completed and two were crashed. One by Winkle Brown and one by a [Pete Major?] at Felixstowe. Another one is at Southampton.
CB: So you did the course on the Sunderland at Pembroke. That set you up.
JL: Pembroke Dock.
CB: Pembroke dock. That set you up in anticipation of flying the SRA1 did it? Was that the idea?
JL: Yes. That was the Flying Boats in general.
CB: And you were flying the Walruses and the Otters
JL: Yes. The Walruses and the Sea Otter you could taxi on the slipway.
CB: Yeah.
JL: The others needed mooring.
CB: So, what, how did it feel flying a jet flying boat? Because compared with flying a piston engine it was quite different.
JL: Well I had flown jets before. I flew the Vampire and the Meteor.
CB: At Boscombe Down.
JL: Yeah. [pause] I don’t know. Didn’t feel particularly different.
CB: Did you have to have particularly unusual handling techniques because of being a jet engine and getting water in it?
JL: Well they had designed in an extended snout but it was never necessary. It was never used because the spray was always well clear of the intake. I’ve got to have another.
CB: That’s alright.
[Recording pause]
JL: At that time the Isle of Wight was bristling with retired naval captains.
CB: Oh.
JL: Actually I thought he was one of those.
CB: Right.
JL: It turned out to be a captain in the Royal Flying Corps and equivalent of a flight lieutenant.
CB: But he called himself Captain Clark.
JL: Oh he was very fussy about the captain bit.
CB: Yeah. How interesting. What was he like as a personality? As the chairman.
JL: He was a bit peculiar. He had very little technical knowledge. How he came to be managing director I don’t know.
CB: Of an aviation company.
JL: Finance I suppose. But he was a bit of an oddball.
CB: Now after the Saunders Roe situation changing you went back to Armstrong Whitworth.
JL: Yes.
CB: So how did that come about? You just made direct contact or how did it work?
JL: Well when Geoffrey told me John Booth was joining as his number two that was obviously my cue to go so I immediately phoned Eric Franklin who — he’d been an apprentice with me at Armstrong Whitworth and he was then chief test pilot and he offered me a job straight away. So I was on my way within a very few days.
CB: So what was Armstrong Whitworth working on then? We’re talking about 1946 now are we?
JL: ‘49
CB: ‘49. Right.
JL: When I, when went back there the bread and butter was the production of Mark iv Meteors which became Mark viii Meteors. Simultaneously we had the Apollo which was a heap of rubbish.
CB: An airliner.
JL: Yes.
CB: An imitation air liner.
JL: It was supposed to be in competition with the Vickers Viscount. That was because it had to have Armstrong Siddeley engines, which were rubbish so it was never made anywhere. They were very [pause] well, a child of ten could have designed it.
CB: Oh.
JL: We had the 52. The 52 glider.
CB: So how, the AW52 was a flying wing.
JL: Yes.
CB: So could you just explain what the concept there was and the use of the glider first?
JL: Well, one of the purposes of it was to try to develop laminar flow over the wing.
CB: Right.
JL: But it wasn’t very successful because it’s impossible to keep the wind surface clear of squashed flies and things but actually it was a very experimental aircraft. I suppose they had ideas of building a massive passenger aircraft in that form but in this case it was just a two seater but they, it only had twenty six degrees of sweepback which was not nearly enough. And on controls they had several choices. What they chose was an elavon — a combined elevator and aileron. They could have split them and had separate ailerons and elevators or power controls were coming along although they hadn’t reached it yet. Well they wrongly decided on the elavons which meant that fore and aft was a very short lever balance, was very vert sensitive fore and aft, very very heavy laterally and they had a compromise and the compromise was through a spring tab. Are you familiar with a spring tab?
CB: Yeah.
JL: On a spring tab the spring had to be very very weak so that your controls are connected to a very floppy spring and my problem was exceeding the [pause] exploring the higher speed range before flutter set in. I was completely disorientated and I believe that I would have passed out very quickly so instead of that I pulled the blind down. I didn’t do anything properly in the ejection. You were supposed to put your heels on the footrest. I didn’t do that. I just didn’t do it. That’s all. And it had spectacle controls. Somehow or other my knees missed that. They were bruised but otherwise, otherwise ok. So once again I was very very very lucky.
CB: What height were you flying?
JL: About three thousand feet.
CB: And what speed?
JL: Three hundred. About three hundred and fifty. The limiting speed had just been increased and that’s what I was doing.
CB: So it’s the —
JL: Exploring that.
CB: Right. And theoretically what was the maximum speed? Fairly low was it?
JL: Oh I expect so. Yes. Yes not much performance testing was done. It was all sort of handling. Trying to get the controls right.
CB: So you’re at three thousand. Three thousand feet. What sort of speed were you actually flying at at that moment?
JL: Well the last I remember was about three fifty.
CB: It was at three fifty. Right.
JL: We were still at miles an hour.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And —
CB: The parachute automatically deployed.
JL: No. No.
CB: You had to do it.
JL: I had to do the whole thing.
CB: Yeah.
JL: I had to release the Sutton harness and pull the rip cord.
CB: Right.
JL: I made a very bad landing and hurt my shoulder a bit. Still hurts.
CB: Where? Where did this take place?
JL: A place called little Long Itchington.
CB: I know it. Yes.
JL: Do you know it? South of Coventry.
CB: Yes. Good pub there.
JL: Yes. I’ve been there.
CB: The Blue Light.
JL: The Blue Light.
CB: Yes.
JL: Used to kept by Wing Commander Sandy Powell.
CB: Oh.
JL: Who had been at Boscombe Down. In charge of C flight.
CB: And he he became a Comet test pilot and that blew his mind.
JL: Hmmn?
CB: He had been a Comet test pilot as well hadn’t he?
JL: Sandy?
CB: Yeah.
JL: Well he’d flown all sorts of things.
CB: Yeah. Right. So that’s where you came down. And the plane came down somewhere. Where?
JL: About two miles further on.
CB: Yeah. What? How did you start off with the gliders? The Glider. How did that handle? You were towed up by something and then —
JL: [laughs]. Not exactly. They had, they had a Whitley to tow it off first of all but when I got there they’d just been allocated a Lancaster. That Whitley was the last off the production line and they took it away and broke it up. There was no Whitley any more. But we had a Lancaster which was much better getting the glider up to a decent height. Used to take it up and then do tests on the way down.
CB: So how manoeuvrable was the glider?
JL: Well it was much better. It was two thirds the size of a big one and it was not metal? It was plywood construction which made it much more rigid and the controls were much better. Still a bit odd.
CB: And what sort of test envelope would you be exploring in that?
JL: Oh I don’t know. I don’t remember.
CB: Then you moved to the AW52.
JL: Yes. I only did two and a half flights in the AW52.
CB: Right.
JL: And the other one was grounded. Then they did some vibration tests with it at very slow speeds. When they sent it to Farnborough where it was regarded as a curiosity. I think they tried to resurrect the laminar flow test but it was no good and it finished up as a curiosity and was eventually broken up.
CB: What was the engine power on that? Was it twin engine?
JL: Yes. Two Nenes. Yes. One had two Nenes. One had two Derwents.
CB: Right. So this was a government contract.
JL: Yes.
CB: To examine laminar flows.
JL: A research. A government supported.
CB: So after that you get out. You’re the first person to use an ejector seat in serious operation.
JL: Yes. The Germans had got on of course during the war. They weren’t as good of course. I think they were operated by compressed air. But I think there were a quite a lot of German ejections.
CB: Were there?
JL: And I was the first of the allied side shall we say.
CB: In peacetime. So you injured your shoulder. What did you do after that?
JL: I was off flying for about a month and then I went to central, CME Central Medical Establishment in London and they gave me a going over and sent me home with a little piece of paper which said, “Fits, fits civilian MOS pilot but not to be exposed to the hazards of the Martin-Baker ejection seat.” And so shrieks of laughter at that. Still are. [laughs]
CB: An interesting point though in practical terms the seat is operated by a cartridge. What was the affect? The seat is operated by an explosive cartridge so what did the ejection itself do to your spine?
JL: Well I had already gone up to [Denham?] and got on the test rig and following that I had a little bit of pain in my tail. I mentioned this to my GP and explained what had happened. He said, ‘Well, I expect you bruised it a bit.’ But the pain didn’t go away. It wasn’t constant and so I ignored it. Then when I ejected they x-rayed me and they said that I’d suffered a compression fracture of the first and second vertebrae and what’s more this was the second time this has happened. So the same thing happened both times.
CB: Right.
JL: I think it’s quite common actually.
CB: Yes. It’s just the modern seats are rocket and they still have a sharp acceleration don’t they?
JL: Yes.
CB: So, ok. What did you do next then? Did you return to flying?
JL: Oh yes. I went to Armstrong Whitworth and started again. And well we went through a lot of productions the Sea Hawk, the Hunter 2 and 5, Hunter 7. We had [pause] God. Come on brain. Javelin.
CB: Oh yes. ‘Cause they were building all of these. Some contractors were they?
JL: Yes. I mean we took over. We took over the Sea Hawk complete. Design and everything.
CB: Oh right.
JL: But the others were just sub-contracts. The Hunter 2 and the 5 had Sapphire engines. We built all those.
CB: How long did all that go on?
JL: Well the Argosy came along 1959. And I participated in that for a while which wasn’t a very good aircraft at all. Didn’t have enough range for the RAF to start with. But Glosters closed down. Who else closed down? Avro. Avro’s closed down [pause] No they didn’t. Glosters closed down. Somebody else closed down and the Hawker Siddeley Group was sort of imploding rapidly and so I thought it time to go rather than just sit about and wait to be picked to be sacked. And so I went to the managing director and said I’d be happy to leave and that I had a suggestion that they see me through the necessary, considerable training to obtain an airline transport pilot’s licence and they happily agreed to that. They paid all my expenses. In all for about three months. I got that licence and they gave me a year’s salary and said thank you very much. And unfortunately I was, met another chap who’d got into crop spraying in Africa. Made a lot of money. And he talked me into joining him in the business but unfortunately he had a wife too many and he bought a house out of the business and things were going very wrong and I lost a lot of money and pulled out. And I needed a job and there was a job down here at Shoreham regional air maps. Doing air survey photography and map making. So I took that job to give me, keep me sane while I looked around for an airline job but the only airline job that came my way was flying a Dakota to Dusseldorf at night with the papers. I didn’t fancy that at all. I was well placed because the crewing manager at British United was a chap who’d been at Boscombe Down, Charles Moss and he was looking out for me. And nothing came along. This was in 1964. So I took this job and I got engrossed in the air survey business anyway and passed the point of no return age wise I think and I stayed there until I was sixty five.
CB: So looking back on your RAF career what was the most memorable point, would you say, of your activities?
JL: I think my first tour with that motley crew I had.
CB: In what way?
JL: Well we went everywhere together. Did everything together.
CB: Yeah.
JL: It was rather different with the second tour. We didn’t sort of mix socially so much.
CB: Didn’t you?
JL: Well I had good happy times but —
CB: When were you commissioned? In the first tour.
JL: In my first tour. Yeah. August 1941.
CB: Right.
JL: This was another little story. I was down in the dispersal one day and an airman came down and said, ‘Here. You’ve got to fill this in.’ [laughs] And it was an application form for a commission. So I thought I’d better fill it in which I did and I had to go to London for an interview and my crew, I went down by train late at night. My crew duly saw my off via the George Hotel and I was in a pretty fair state when I got on the train. Got to London in the blackouts. There was an air raid warning on. I had nowhere to go. I eventually found a dim light which was the Church Army or Salvation Army or something. A little hostel. So I went in there and they gave me a bed for the night. In the morning I never saw the proper toilet facilities. I just got, I just got dressed. I had a terrible hangover and went for my interview. I think it was actually Adastral House in Kingsway. Then went back to the squadron and carried on. And then we went on leave and I still had my car. If you had a car and you went on leave you had petrol coupons for the place you were going so obviously the best thing is to have a destination as far away as possible to get the most petrol. So I had the address of a friend in Shrewsbury and I just gave that as my address whilst on leave. Whilst I was on leave they sent a telegram to this address saying commission granted and never to return as pilot officer so I turned up not knowing a thing about this so I had to rush into Cambridge and get myself fitted for a uniform and rushed in again to put it on and went in as a sergeant and came back as a pilot officer. And my crew all came with me as usual and they marched in front demanding that everybody saluted me. [laughs]
CB: Sounds like a riot.
JL: Yeah.
CB: Didn’t work the same way with the Lancaster crew. Is that because you had two people join later?
JL: Well I had a ready-made crew. The commanding officer had gone off sick. He needed some surgery and I took over his crew which was a Wellington crew. And the navigator was a ex-Exeter prison jailer and he had, he had funny ideas. He used to take a .38 revolver with him on ops. Yeah. The wireless operator was, came from Dublin and surprisingly he was a teetotal. The original wireless op and the rear gunner both changed quite quickly having finished whatever they were on and so I had a sort of a scratch crew to start with and when we changed we changed on to Lancs we had two new members and we were all on happy good terms but we didn’t sort of go down the the pub as a gang as we did on the first tour.
CB: How many other officers in your crew? In that case. On the Lancasters.
JL: There were no officers except me in the first crew. The second crew [pause] I had two changes of navigator and they were both commissioned. The rear gunner in both cases both were commissioned. Just in the last legs I had a commissioned wireless op. A Canadian. Gordon Fisher. The rest were all sergeants.
CB: You had an unusually broad experience because you started early and did various other things. To what extent did you come across LMF?
JL: On 40 Squadron we had a chap. I can tell you his name can I?
CB: Ahum.
JL: [Hesketh?]
CB: Yeah.
JL: And all sorts of things kept going wrong with him. He did a lot of second pilot trips. I had my [unclear] [serves me right?] one time prior to going out on ops he retracted the undercarriage. Almost anything to stop him and he was eventually flying second pilot with the flight commander and that aircraft was seen circling on a point on the East Anglian coast well north off the point where we were supposed to stage through and it spun in and crashed and they were all killed including the flight commander. Creegan was it? And this chap Hesketh. You can’t help but think that Hesketh had something to do with that but why they were, they were about fifty miles north of where they should have been. The other one I only know by hearsay which was 12 Squadron. A crew ditched in the North Sea. The dinghy was upside down and they had to sit on the upturned dinghy for three days and they were rescued and of course they were hospital cases. Apparently for days afterwards when they squeezed [the flesh?] water came out. The wireless op I believe, this was all hearsay Flight Sergeant Rose and he was put back on ops far too soon. He wasn’t ready for it and he was whisked off. Presumably pronounced LMF. Which was very very very unkind. My experience of the RAF was that they were always very kind and compassionate to me.
CB: Well.
JL: Particularly Wing Commander Wood.
CB: Jo thank you very much indeed for a fascinating interview.
JL: I don’t think it was very good.
[Recording paused]
JL: One incident at 12 Squadron again. Lancs. We were right over the top of Hamburg a Junkers 88 went. We heard his engines.
CB: Did you?
JL: Straight over the top of us. Missed us by about ten feet I think.
CB: In the dark.
JL: In the dark.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Well in the dark but you could see quite a lot.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Quite a shock.
JL: Yes [laughs] if he’s close enough to hear the engines he’s too bloody near.
CB: Yeah. And you thanked your lucky stars.
JL: I had another one. I had a very good Australian navigator on 12 Squadron. Anyway, he had to miss an op for some reason or other and we were given a Canadian. A chap called Abrahamson. I’d never sort of met him till we got in the aircraft and the target was Essen. And we went off and by the time we got to the Dutch coast he wasn’t making any sense at all but fortunately the PFF were putting down markers at a couple of turning points and the night was absolutely gin clear. You could see everything. You could see the coast and rivers and I didn’t want to take issue with this Mr Abrahamson so I just carried on and we duly, I made the markers that PFF had put down. You couldn’t miss the target because they were marking that as well. Some duly did deliver the bombs and just flew home. Didn’t need any help flying home. We could see everything and of course when we got back we had to report everything to the squadron navigation officer. Mr Abrahamson was never seen again. By the time we got up in the morning he wasn’t there.
CB: Was he —
JL: Off the station. Where he went? Don’t know.
CB: Did you put that down to stress or just as an incompetent navigator?
JL: I’ve no idea. I’ve no idea. I didn’t know the chap. I hadn’t spoken to him.
CB: Right. Thank you.
[Recording paused]
CB: Wife died.
JL: Well [unclear]
CB: Right.
JL: Very sad. That’s right. We had a legal separation and she wanted to marry again so we did the divorce and then she died 1977.
CB: Right.
JL: I remarried and this wife went a bit berserk. I think she was almost certainly she was got onto drugs. She had her own car. Used to disappear into Brighton for days but she had her father who was a mouse living there and looked after my daughter Jenny and eventually she, well I divorced her and the next thing I knew she’d developed cirrhosis of the liver.
CB: Oh.
JL: And due to her very very peculiar behaviour she hadn’t any friends left at all. She was a very very sad case and she committed suicide.
CB: Right.
JL: In 1964. I’d just retired.
CB: A big strain.
JL: I was left with a daughter sixteen. Just doing her O Levels.
CB: Oh were you really.
JL: Fortunately she’s turned out absolute trumps.
WT: Good. Good.
CB: Excellent.
JL: And the son is fine too. So I have a son of seventy and a daughter forty nine and a loving and loyal family.
CB: Is Jenny married?
JL: She should be.
CB: Oh.
JL: I said, ‘Why don’t you get married?’ ‘What’s the point?’
CB: Oh right.
JL: One of those.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Jo Lancaster. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALancasterJO170308
PLancasterJO1501
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Jo Lancaster grew up in Cumbria and joined the Air Force as soon as he was able. After training as a pilot he flew a tour of operations with 40 Squadron from RAF Alconbury. He then became an instructor before his second tour flying Lancasters with 12 Squadron from RAF Wickenby. He then became a test pilot at RAF Boscombe Down. He continued to be a test pilot after the war and was the first person to eject from an aircraft in danger using a Martin-Baker ejector seat. In all he flew a total of more than 144 aircraft types.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Coventry
France--Brest
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Hamburg
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1945
Format
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02:00:18 audio recording
12 Squadron
150 Squadron
20 OTU
22 OTU
40 Squadron
aircrew
B-25
B-26
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
crewing up
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Me 109
Me 110
Meteor
mine laying
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Alconbury
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Wickenby
RAF Wyton
recruitment
Spitfire
Tallboy
training
Walrus
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/520/8752/PLucasWE1501.2.jpg
dc00f6a0e3e1fc69c5c9cdae6c5e637c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/520/8752/ALucasB150405.1.mp3
08574ac4f1191f6ee013bbf1624927f9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lucas, Bill
William Ernest Lucas
W E Lucas
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Lucas, WE
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Bill Lucas DFC (1917 - 2018, 1255396 Royal Air Force), his log book, brief memoir and photographs. He served as a pilot with 9, 15, 139 and 162 Squadrons. After the war he ran in the 1948 Olympics.
The collection was catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
William (Bill) Ernest Lucas was born in Tooting Bec, London on the 16th January 1917, 3 years deep into World War One. Luckily for Bill he was not of age to endure with the fighting in the trenches. However, when Europe was engulfed into another worldwide conflict in 1939, this set way for Bill to become involved with the RAF and IBCC.
Growing up, Bill was an only child and left his school (Bec Grammar School) at the age of 15. He managed to get a job with a printers, which led to his second and only other job at an insurance company called the London and Lancashire. The company’s sports club enabled Bill to find his passion for athletics (especially running) and he was expected to participate in the 1940 Olympics until the war interfered. (https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/30884)
A photo of Bill in his running gear is shown in https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/30865 where he is running down 55 Graham Road in Surrey.
Bill instead competed in the 1948 Olympic Games as the games were also cancelled in 1944 due to World War Two. Luckily the games were hosted in London (https://olympics.com/en/olympic-games/london-1948) and Bill had retired from IBCC meaning that he had time to participate.
As seen in ‘Bill Lucas and the 1948 London Olympics’ (1948) https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/30866 Bill managed to come 6th in the Second Heat meaning he was one position off of being in the final on the 2nd August 1948! This collection also includes Bill in his older prime wearing his 1948 Olympic Games jacket and the official Olympic Games programme from 1948.
When Hitler invaded Poland on September 1st 1939, Bill was 22 years old meaning that he was eligible to be part of Great Britain’s Army. Combining Bill’s hatred of the sea and his fathers recent experiences in the trenches, the RAF seemed to be the most compatible choice with Bill. (https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/520/30884/B[Author]LucasWEv10001.jpg)
Bill was not involved in Britain’s mightiest air conflict against Hitler’s Luftwaffe however, instead watching ‘The Few’ defeat the Nazi aircrafts and succeed. Being considered to be Nazi Germany’s first ‘major military defeat’, this allowed for Britain to continue fighting in the war (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/our-history/anniversaries/battle-of-britain/ and to an extent, allowed Bill to continue his path of becoming an Squadron Leader.
It was November 1940 when Bill started his pilot training, but due to a bomber offensive being the only way to properly counter the Nazis, this was huge not just for Bill but Britain as a whole. There had never been a bomber offensive before in warfare. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/520/30884/B[Author]LucasWEv10001.jpg
As seen in Bill’s official Pilot’s Log Book: (https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/520/24264/LLucasWE122826v1.1.pdf) his training consisted of being part of 16 Elementary Flying School at RAF Derby from 1940 to 41 , 8 School of Flying Training at RAF Montrose in 1941 and 20 Operational Training Units at RAF Lossiemouth in 1941 . He flew three different types of aircraft during his training, Miles Magister, Miles Master and Wellington I’s.
Bill’s training finally finished in August 1941 and he was posted to his first official squadron, IX Squadron at Honington. Here he flew the Wellington Bomber.
Will Cragg
Record of Service:
4 November 1940- 4 January 1941: 16 Elementary Flying Training School at RAF Derby flying Miles Magisters
9 January- 4 May 1941: 8 School of Flying Training at RAF Montrose flying Miles Masters
31 May 1941- 13 August 1941: 20 Operational Training Units at RAF Lossiemouth flying Wellington I’s
14 August 1941- 4 November 1941: 9 Squadron at RAF Honington flying Wellington III’s
4 November 1941- 30 December 1941: 26 Conversion Fleet at RAF Waterbeach flying Stirling’s
30 December 1941- 1 August 1942: 15 Squadron at RAF Wyton flying Whitley V’s
1 August 1942- 3 August 1942: 218 Conversion Fleet at RAF Marham flying Airspeed Oxfords
4 August 1942- 18 August 1942: 19 Operational Training Units at RAF Kinloss flying Whitley IV’s
19 August 1942- 13 August 1942: 3 Fighter Instructor Schools at RAF Hullavington flying Ansons
17 September 1942- 18 September 1942: 19 Operational Training Units at RAF Kinloss flying Halifax II’s
18 September 1942- 24 October 1944: 19 Operational Training Units at RAF Forres flying Mosquito III’s
30 October 1942- 19 December 1944: 1655 Mosquito Training Unit at RAF Warboys flying Mosquito IV’s
30 October 1944- 19 December 1944: 1655 Squadron at RAF Bourn flying Mosquito XX’s
7 June 1945- 28 June 1945: 162 Squadron at RAF Blackbushe flying Mosquito XXV’S
28 June 1945- 29 January 1946: 139 Squadron at RAF Upwood flying Lancaster III’s
29 January 1946: Station Head Quarters at RAF Upwood flying Mosquito XVI’s
William Cragg
William (Bill) Lucas was born on January 16th, 1917 in Tooting Bec, London. He was educated at Bec Grammar School, and left at the age of 15 to work at a printing company before moving to the insurers London and Lancashire to work as an assessor. While working there, he developed his talent for athletics with the Belgrave Harriers, with his best discipline being the 5000 metres. His goal was to compete at the 1940 Olympic games. However, in 1940, Bill was called up to help the war effort and mindful of his father’s advice to avoid the army and his own dislike of the sea, he chose to join the RAF.
Initially he trained as a fighter pilot on Miles Magisters and Miles Masters, but by the time he had finished training, the Battle of Britain had been won and the need for bomber pilots was more urgent. So, he was reallocated to bombers and trained to fly the Wellington at RAF Lossiemouth. Bill Lucas · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Following completion of pilot training in August 1941, he was posted to RAF Honington and joined 9 Squadron flying Wellingtons. He flew 14 operational sorties – notably Cologne and Hamburg – before converting to Stirlings at RAF Waterbeach. He then joined 15 (Bomber) Squadron at RAF Wyton, flying the Short Stirling and, by August 1942, Bill had completed a full tour of 30 operational sorties (over 40 operations in total). Bill experienced tense encounters with German defences, having to take evasive action and also getting caught in a cone of five or six searchlights. To get out of the searchlight glare he had to do things with the aircraft which it was never meant to do. Returning from one mission they flew too close to Kiel and the airframe amassed a lot of bullet holes and an alarming loss of fuel. Crossing the North Sea, the tank indicators showed practically nothing and they had to divert into Woodbridge in Suffolk. The groundcrew estimated there was less than twenty-five gallons of fuel left (probably less than 6 minutes of flying time).
He was released from operational duties and was posted to RAF Lossiemouth as a flying instructor. Then in December 1944, he returned to operational flying and was posted to 162 Squadron, part of the Pathfinder force, to fly the Mosquito, an aircraft he described as “a bit quicker and more responsive; a nice aeroplane”. He completed a further 34 operational sorites with 162 Squadron, including missions over Kiel, Berlin, Hannover and Magdeburg. In recognition of his war services, Bill was awarded the DFC and was Mentioned in Despatches.
Squadron Leader Bill Lucas was released from the Service in January 1946 and returned to the insurance job he had left to join the RAF. Eventually, he left the company to become an insurance broker. He also returned to athletics and the Belgrave Harriers; he ran in various internationals and competed for Great Britain in the 5000m at the 1948 London Olympics. Athletics remained with him for the rest of his life and he gave his spare time freely, working in prominent roles in the administration of athletics. He remained a Belgrave Harrier committee member well into his 90s. He became known as “the golden voice of British Athletics” for his many years as stadium announcer at the White City .
In his later years, Bill remained prominent in RAF and Aircrew Associations. He, along with a small Band of Sussex veterans, was instrumental in helping to raise funds for the construction of the Bomber Command Memorial in London’s Green Park and the International Bomber Command Centre.
Chris Cann
1940: Volunteered for the RAF
4 November 1940 – 4 January 1941: RAF Burnaston, No. 16 EFTS, flying Magister aircraft
9 January 1941 – 4 May 1941: RAF Montrose, No. 8 SFTS, flying Master aircraft
31 May 1941 – 13 August 1941: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, flying Wellington aircraft
14 August 1941 – 4 November 1941: RAF Honington, No. 9 Squadron, flying Wellington aircraft
1941: Commissioned into the officer ranks
4 November 1941 – 30 December 1941: RAF Waterbeach, No. 26 Conversion Flight, flying Stirling aircraft
30 December 1941 – 1 August 1942: RAF Wyton, No. 15 Squadron, flying Stirling aircraft
1 August 1942 – 3 August 1942: RAF Marham, 218 Conversion Flight
4 August 1942 – 18 August 1942: RAF Kinloss, No. 19 OTU, flying Whitley aircraft
19 August 1942 – 13 September 1942: RAF Hullavington, No. 3 FTS, flying Oxford aircraft
17 September 1942 – 18 September 1942: RAF Kinloss, No. 19 OTU, flying Whitley and Anson aircraft
18 September 1942 – 24 October 1944: RAF Foress, No. 19 OTU, flying Whitley and Anson aircraft
30 October 1944 – 19 December 1944: RAF Warboys, 1655 MTU, flying Mosquito and Oxford aircraft
19 December 1944 – 7 June 1945: RAF Bourn, 162 Squadron, flying Mosquito aircraft
7 June 1945 – 28 June 1945: RAF Blackbushe, 162 Squadron, flying Mosquito aircraft
28 June 1945 – 29 January 1946: RAF Upwood, 139 Squadron, flying Mosquito and Oxford aircraft
29 January 1946: Released from Service having attained the rank of Squadron Leader.
Chris Cann
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: The interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton, the Interviewee is Bill Lucas. Mr Lucas was a RAF pilot in various aircraft during World War Two. The interview is taking place at [redacted] Rustington, West Sussex on the 5th of April 2015.
WL: My name is W E (Bill) Lucas. I was called to the Forces in 1940, and my first introduction towards that was to be seen by a doctor in a Croydon school who, all intents and purposes, er, was to see which — whether I was capable of going in any of the services, that is, if I’d got flat feet or something like that. So we came to the point when he said, ‘Which service do you want to go in?’ So I said, ‘Well, I don’t want to go in the Army’, because my father put me off, had put me off going in to the trenches, et cetera. He himself had won a military medal saving his CO, he was a sergeant in the Northampton Regiment. So, I said, ‘no Army, I don’t like water, so I must go in the RAF’. ‘Oh, what do you want to do in the RAF?’ ‘Oh well,’ I said ‘what is there to do in the RAF other than fly?’ So he then wields his stethoscope and he then said, ‘you will never fly with the RAF’. So I said, ‘why not?’ He said, ‘you’ve got an enlarged heart’, I said, ‘I know that I’ve got an enlarged heart. I have been an athlete for a number of years and that developed the heart’. In fact, I was quite a good athlete, I was up to County standard at that stage, so he then said, ‘you’ve got an uneven heartbeat.’ Well, here I am, um, God knows how many years later, seventy-odd years later, and I’ve still got an enlarged heart and I’ve still got an uneven heartbeat. But anyway, he said, ‘well, I appreciate your enthusiasm. I’ll put you forward’. Well, having, um, escaped the doctor and, er, gone to Uxbridge and been interviewed again there for flying duties, they passed me without any bother at all, and then, having gone through all the introductory things, ground work et cetera, I was then trained as a fighter pilot, um, flying Miles Magisters and Miles Masters. That didn’t work, um, because they didn’t — well, the need for fighter pilots was over because we had won the Battle of Britain with the Spitfires, et cetera, et cetera, so I found myself at Lossiemouth, er, faced with flying a heavy bomber, the Wellington 1C.
AP: And what was it like to fly? How did you —
WL: Oh, the Wellington was a comparatively easy aircraft to fly. It was beautifully situated, it was low off the ground. You could do three-point landings in a Wellington, which you couldn’t do with some other aircraft, so it was quite enjoyable.
AP: And the kind of operations that you flew on?
WL: Operations were, at that time, were entirely over Germany, main cities and things in Germany but, but, er, if I had my log book here I could tell you where I went.
AP: What about —
WL: My first, my first one was, what happened was that when you, at Lossiemouth, you were trained and you finished up at a squadron, and I finished up at 9 Squadron, Honington, and did three trips, um, as a second pilot with a qualified pilot, and then you were given a crew of your own. So, er, I was sent off my first one as captain, they called it a making learner, and it was to Boulogne, so that wasn’t very far so we came back again. And from then onwards it was targets like Cologne and Magdeburg, all those sort of things.
AP: You said you were on thousand bomber raids.
WL: No, that was on the Stirling.
AP: The Stirling.
WL: So after a period of, of, you know, not very long, I completed fourteen operations with 9 Squadron, I was picked and given the honour, they called it the honour, of being one of the first pilots to fly a four engine aircraft, and that was the Stirling. Now, the Stirling was an entirely different aircraft to the Wellington, you’ve only got to see a Stirling to see how different it is. It had a very high undercarriage, you could not do three-point landings on a Stirling, you had to wheel them in. I soon learnt that, because otherwise you would be crashing aircraft all over the place. And then I was then moved to Wyton, W Y T O N, in, in Huntingdonshire, and I then did another full tour, of something like thirty-odd trips, with a crew and the Stirling. The main one of those that I can remember, is the first thousand bomber raid on the 30th of May 1942, er, when we went to Cologne. It was followed the following night with a similar raid on Essen. The Cologne one was quite successful, it was a beautiful clear night, moonlight night. Essen was a bit different, it was too cloudy, didn’t see the target very well, and then two more, two more nights later we did Essen again, still without a great deal of success.
AP: And did you encounter any fighters or —
WL: Oh well, that went without, thing that you either get flak or you get fighters, you know. They weren’t sort of buzzing around you all the time, but you would, you would get one at some time or other.
AP: Did you take evasive action, corkscrewing?
WL: Yes, and your, your rear gunner, if you’ve got a rear gunner coming to talk to you, oh [unclear], used his guns [slight laugh] his eight, eight 303’s.
AP: And was that the corkscrew?
WL: Oh, yes, you did evasive action and, of course, the other thing, which was even more terrifying, was getting caught in searchlights, because the German defences were all geared together that if, er, if a search, if a searchlight got you, then they could swing guns and other searchlights, and if you happened to get caught in a cone of five or six searchlights it was pretty grim. You could, then you started to do things with your aircraft which it was never meant to do, to get out. I had two experiences like that, but I recovered [slight laugh].
AP: And what about the blinding light [unclear]?
WL: Oh, of course, if you’re in the searchlights, you are blinded by them, but you, you hit back, because you got all your gunners to fire down the beam. We used to do a bit of destruction that way [slight laugh].
AP: When you’re coming up to the target now, coming up close to the target, the last couple of minutes, what’s that like?
WL: Well you had to do a straight and level, generally thought to be two minutes dead straight and level, but normally I used to, had a little pattern of my own, where I would weave, um, gently you know, never to be too long on any one thing, up a bit like that down a bit like that, and down a bit like that, still keeping the general thing and it seemed to work.
AP: And the bomb aimer, he’s in control?
WL: He takes over control in the last, um, last run in, yes. He’s the one that supposed to spot the target and set it up. Left, left, you know, right, right [slight laugh].
AP: And then once the bombs had gone, what happens then?
WL: Well, as soon as the bombs had gone, you moved away and headed home as quickly as you could and the thousand bomber raid on Cologne on 30th May, which was in a Stirling, I brought back a picture which, um, showed my stick of bombs going right across the front of the cathedral and the last one emanated at the bridge, the Hohen, the Hohenzollen bridge I think it’s called, in Cologne, so I claimed that. Now, whenever anybody goes to Cologne, I say, ‘stand in front of the cathedral and look at the front, and you’ll find it pockmarked. I claim those pockmarks’ [slight laugh]. Sort of bit of fun but probably quite true actually but, er, you know, I’ve not way of proving it.
AP: And that was a thousand bombers all targeting Cologne that one night?
WL: Well over a period of time, they weren’t all there at once [slight laugh] ‘cause it was done over, I don’t know, half an hour or so or more I should think.
AP: So you did Wellingtons, then Stirlings, and then —
WL: Oh we had Whitleys, and everything they could lay they hands on, so out of partly trained crews from OTUs, flown by qualified pilots, OTU instructors, um, but the crews were, you know, a bit dubious [slight laugh]. Well, you’d be lying if you said you weren’t scared to a degree, but, you know, being nervous and perhaps is something that helps you on your way, but if you gave in to it of course, you would never do it again, and some people did give in to it, and they got taken off, and it was called LMF, lack of moral fibre, so they got reduced to the ground, ground crews.
AP: And the support of the ground crews and all the other people?
WL: Oh terrific, they kept you in the air really. There’s no doubt about it.
AP: So can you say a little bit about all the people that supported you, the mechanics, the ground crew? What are your thoughts about that?
WL: Well I can’t praise them more you see, because it’s like when people say, ‘which aircraft do you like best?’ My answer to that is, ‘all of them, they brought me home’. So that’s what I say about the ground crew, you know, they got us there and back, they entered into the spirit of the thing as much as we did, you know. Their sort of hours were as queer like ours, they were there to see us off, they were there to see us back, see. Counting, you know, the aircraft as they come in. Was our aircraft going to come back in, see? They could be just as upset, I expect, with loss of the crew, their crew.
AP: Are there any memories in particular strike you from those years? You know, when you were flying, anything really vivid, or you feel you would like to relate to today, when you look back?
WL: What do you mean, things that happened to me?
AP: Yes.
WL: Oh, I had one or two scares. I had an engine failure on take-off on a Stirling, the engine went on fire. We had an, we had an engineer on board then and he dealt with it, but we were fully laden and gaining height was very, very difficult. This was out of Wyton, or Alconbury as we were flying from at that stage, um, so we had to get around and we had to lose some fuel, but we still had the bomb load on board, what to do with it? We weren’t getting any height at all so we decided, I decided that we were going to drop it. So it was a nice clear night so we managed to find fields, wide open fields, and we dropped the bomb load, et cetera, et cetera and thought nothing more about it, then came into land on three engines, which was no great problem. Later that, or a few days later, when we were all together, drinking in Huntingdon, we heard a bod way somewhere saying, ‘I was bombed by the Germans this week’, he said, ‘broke a lot of windows’. So we listened to this, and I thought that sounds very much like what we might have done, so we enlightened ourselves, we introduced ourselves to him and said it was us who, who broke his windows, so he was so delighted with that. We had free beer for the rest of the night.
AP: What was the Stirling like to fly in the air?
WL: In the air, I enjoyed flying in the air but it was a horror in the circuit with a big -, had an electric undercarriage too which was not a bad thing, but if the electrics failed, you lost your undercarriage. Well if you didn’t, there was a means of winding it down. Took about half an hour to do it.
AP: And, and this was night flying mainly was it?
WL: All night flying, yes, we did no daylight.
AP: Did you ever use the FIDO for, you know, fog?
WL: No but I might have done, but that was later in the war when I was on, on a Mosquito. I, I was first one back on my squadron and, unfortunately, we’d been sent out and been told we would be back long before weather came down, but we weren’t and when we came back fog was thick. It was really thick, so I made two or three approaches on, on, er, Bourn, which was by Cambridge, and, without effect, decided the last time that I would stay on the ground so we went on the ground, fairly well down the runway into a ditch, tail came over, and then we were upside down there. The ground crew arrived very, very quickly and turned it back up again, so we escaped that one.
AP: So you escaped that one.
WL: They’d been trained individually at various places, whether they were wireless operators, or gunners or navigators and in their own trade. I had a crew which I soon learnt to trust. I did not interfere with them, I let them get on with their job. When you were in the air you, you forbid chatter and you only contacted them if you thought need be, and that’s what the captain would do every so often, he’d say to the rear gunner, ‘are you still alive? Are you still awake’ even. The Met Office had no real means of knowing what was going on, other than outside the realms of the United Kingdom. They used to send an aircraft out sometimes before a raid took place to [unclear], it changed quickly and we had nights when we lost a lot of aircraft. I was on leave from my Stirling squadron, um, I was down in Epsom and I bought a paper, and we’d lost something like eighty-odd aircraft. When I got back to squadron, we’d lost three off my squadron and it was proved later that most of them were lost in weather. They went down in the Channel because wind changes, they weren’t able to, hadn’t got the equipment in those days. We flew with dead reckoning which means that, you know, it was what you could see —
AP: That was it. There was no —
WL: That was it. Then we started to get certain things like a Gee box, which was a sat nav I suppose in a way and —
AP: Did you fly with H2S?
WL: Well I flew with H2S in a Mosquito when my marking days were —
AP: Could you talk a bit about that, because I haven’t met anybody who used —
WL: Well having, let’s say having completed my main tour which consisted of forty, forty operations, um, I then went and spent two years with an OTU instructing others at Kinloss, instructing other people on Whitleys [slight laugh]. Two years later I was withdrawn, posted down south, to find myself allocated to a conversion unit on Mosquitos with a view to joining 8 Group, which materialised, um, I went to a squadron, 162 Squadron, which was a newly formed, newly formed squadron especially for the war-time only, flying Mosquitos. Half of us were markers and the other half did diversionaries and that sort of thing.
AP: So did you actually mark the targets?
WL: Yes, I marked. Not all the time but depending. Mosquitos could fly when the heavies couldn’t, see. We could compete with weather better than they did and in those last two years of the war, er, we did a lot of Baedeker raids. I think going out, we took four, five hundred pound bombs and did Hamburg, Magdeburg, Cologne and somewhere else, came back home, you know, having kept the Germans in their shelters all night [slight laugh]. We used to go out at quarter of an hour intervals you see.
AP: Where did you fly from?
WL: I flew from Wyton.
AP: Wyton? Okay. So —
WL: No, in Mosquitos, I flew from Bourn, Bourn without an ‘e’, just outside Cambridge.
AP: Could you talk a little about marking the targets with the Mosquitos?
WL: Well the basis was that we carried, er, flares which lasted quite a long time and varying colours. I never knew which colour I was going, going to be carrying but we were instructed to fly a course, which we were able to do using H2S, er, essentially to be perfectly accurate, and then at a nominated height, and at a certain point, we would drop these flares, which would burst near the ground if it was a clear night or quite high up if it was above cloud. The main force then comes in and bombs the flares and it’s all worked out that if they hit the flare, then their bombs would hit the target, see.
AP: And was there different colours of flares?
WL: Oh yes. Greens, reds, yellows, everything.
AP: And did they have different meanings?
WL: Well the bomber crew coming in behind knew what they had to do, which ones they shoot.
AP: So they could [unclear]
WL: Well they have some warning you see. They might have a yellow one as a warning, then a green one, that’s the one to bomb or something like that.
AP: Right. And H2S, is that the one you were using, that’s the —
WL: It was a forerunner, really, of television. We had a screen in the aircraft, we transmitted a beam or something like that, er, which picked up the ground. It didn’t pick up, er, sharpness but we could tell the difference between water, and built-up areas, and rivers, and all that sort of thing, and we were provided with a map in the aircraft so we were able to follow that by watching the screen. The screen should agree with the map and therefore we knew — it wasn’t until 1943, ‘44 that we began to get accuracy because of that. There was another means called Oboe, that was done by Mosquitos as well. That was arriving at a point, a cock, a cocked hat as they called it, three beams transmitting from this country, all crossing at one point. They used to have, they would have warnings and then they really did have to fly, er, two minutes straight and level. But Oboe, of course, was only useful, couldn’t be done at great distance. The Ruhr was about as far as we could do with Oboe. We used to drop from anything up to thirty thousand.
AP: Any kind of low level bombing?
WL: No, I didn’t do any of those.
AP: Right —
WL: Not, not in a Mosquito. I did some low level stuff in Stirlings, dropping, um, sea mines off the coast of France and Holland, in waterways.
AP: What kind of height would that be?
WL: Three hundred feet. Flying inside the islands off the coast of Holland and shot at. It was the same with Lorient, on the approach into Lorient we were dropping sea mines there. We used to treat these trips quite mundane really, you know. I was never on any sort of thing like Amiens or those specialised jobs. No, I would love to have done it, but I couldn’t. I mean they made a mess of that one so —
AP: Did you go as far as Berlin in the Mosquitos?
WL: Oh yes, fourteen times [slight laugh]. There’s a story about that because, um, we didn’t go to Berlin for a long time after the war, but off of a cruise, we were on in the Baltic, we stopped at Warnemünde and, and got taken into Berlin, see. Met by a young man who was to be our guide for the day, and I knew what he was going to say, he was going to say, at some time, had I been to Berlin before? So we left him to it. Eventually he got round to it, and I said, ‘Yes, yes. Fourteen times but never on the ground’. See, so he looks at me and he said, ‘I know all about that’, he said, ‘I commend you, you did exactly what you were told to do’, and we had a very good day together [laugh].
AP: There you go. As you look back, is there anything specific? Any memories of your wartime experience —
WL: Well yes, in a way. When you got a big crew on board, we used to have seven on a Stirling and I had the same crew from my Wellington and Stirling days, we got quite matey. We always went drinking together, see. Some were commissioned and others weren’t. I was commissioned during my period on 15 Squadron Stirlings and, er, but we always used to go out in the evenings, start off anyway [slight laugh] together what we got up to later was Legion. That crew was still left when I finished my tour of heavies, with three or four trips to do. The ruling when we first started bombing, was that you did thirty trips, then they changed it to two hundred operational hours, which meant that you probably did more than thirty. Anyway, they were left with, er, two or three to do and I departed up into Scotland, and I’m thinking I was never going to see them again, see. Then I heard that the first time out with a new captain, they’d been shot down. I was quite sorrowful about that, because I’d spent, oh, something like twelve months with them altogether and, er, that, you know, so I was sorrowful about it and nothing happened ‘till about four or five years ago. I was rung up by a young lad who said, ‘I’ve seen a picture of you with your crew in the Sunday Telegraph’, and he said, ‘I think one of them is my grandfather’. So I said, ‘which one?’ And he said, ‘Jack Tailor’. I said, ‘Yes, Jack Tailor was my engineer’. It then transpired that Jack Tailor had been withdrawn on the morning of that, of the time they were shot down. He was then a sergeant engineer. He finished the war as a warrant officer engineer, which was quite something. He won himself a DFC and he died in 1996 [slight laugh].
AP: That’s amazing.
WL: He obviously thought I hadn’t survived and I was absolutely certain that he hadn’t, see, but all the time he was living within a really close distance. I lived just outside Croydon for a time, he was there. I moved down and got remarried to a lady which you might meet later, um, in the Horsham area, he was there, and his daughter and the, and the young lad who rung me were at, um, a place about five miles along the road, on the 272 from us, at Shipley.
AP: Amazing.
WL: Coming home, we came a bit too near Kiel coming home, see, and got lots of holes. We lost a hell of a lot of fuel. There we were, crossing the North Sea, with the tank indicators showing practically nothing, down to nothing, and fortunately we made it, because in those days, they had a special airfield, Woodbridge was the one in Suffolk, where they had three runways. The left hand one was you could go in if there was nothing wrong with you, the middle one if you weren’t sure and the right hand one if you crash landed it, see, so I took the left hand one and the, and we stayed the night there. The ground crew there refuelled, and he came to me and said, ‘I hope you realise how short you were of fuel last night’. I said, ‘Yes sergeant. How much are you going to tell me was there?’ He said, ‘well, according to our estimation, you had twenty-five gallons’. Now a Hercules engine, which is in a Stirling, uses fifty gallons an hour, so that’s two hundred gallons in, you had four, how far would have I got on twenty-five? If I’d overshot at Woodbridge, we would not be here today. You see we never, you got called on, on the day and said, ‘well sir, there’s a crew meeting at 2 o’clock this afternoon’, and you would go to this. The navigators would be taken off, they went to learn the target and go through all their maps and things like that, which didn’t involve the captains and the bomb aimers and things. Well the bomb aimers, yes, he will tell you about or has told you about that, and then of course, you got a long period when you were taken off, 6 o’clock or 8 o’clock or 10 o’clock, and the worse ones were of course, were when, we had a, you know, abortive. All the nerves had built up, see, and then suddenly, oh no, back to the mess, see. Then we got a bit of relief then, so a few pints, we used to go down, and one station I was on, they had a piano like that and so, you know, we would spend most of the evening singing round the piano, so —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bill Lucas. One
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-04-05
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALucasB150405
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Format
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00:29:21 audio recording
Description
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W E (Bill) Lucas joined the Royal Air Force in 1940, where he trained as a fighter pilot flying Miles Magisters and Miles Masters, before being posted to RAF Lossiemouth and moving into Bomber Command, flying the Vickers Wellington 1C.
Flew 14 operations with No 9 Squadron at Honnington flying the Short Stirling, before being posted to Wyton in Huntingdonshire where he did a full tour of over 40 operations on Short Stirlings.
He took part in operations to Cologne, Magdeburg and Essen, including taking part in the first 1000 bomber raid on the 30th May 1942.
He then spent 2 years with a Operational Training Unit at Kinloss, instructing on Armstrong Whitworth Whitleys and then he moved to 162 Squadron, flying De Havilland Mosquitos where he marked targets, and did 14 trips to Berlin.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1942
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Huntingdonshire
England--Suffolk
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Germany--Cologne
15 Squadron
162 Squadron
8 Group
9 Squadron
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
fear
grief
ground crew
H2S
lack of moral fibre
military ethos
mine laying
Mosquito
Oboe
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Bourn
RAF Honington
RAF Kinloss
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Woodbridge
RAF Wyton
searchlight
Stirling
target indicator
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8745/PGoodmanLS1501.1.jpg
4d6c119b0afafd239cd1395cc73a9296
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8745/AGoodmanLS150808.2.mp3
5d1eebc2760604de275260a0b99591f6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Goodman, Benny
Lawrence Seymour Goodman
L S Goodman
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodman, LS
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-04-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Laurence Benny Goodman. The interview is taking place at Mr Goodman’s home in Bracknell on the 8th of August 2015. This particular interview focusses on Mr Goodman’s time as a pilot in 617 squadron during the latter stages of World War 2.
LBSG: The Grand Slam bomb was designed by Sir Barnes Wallis and was twenty one feet long and weighed twenty two thousand pounds. It was the largest bomb ever produced in the war. We were the only squadron to carry it. On the Arnsberg Viaduct raid which was a daylight raid I had a twenty two thousand pound bomb on board and we made our usual bombing run but once the bomb was released I felt the aircraft lift perceptibly. I imagine a hundred, a hundred or two hundred feet and certainly the flight engineer heard the, heard the clinking of the release chains. The bomb was so heavy that it required those chains. To carry the twenty two thousand pound bomb of course the Lancaster had to be modified. We had to have a strengthened undercarriage. The bomb doors were certainly taken away and we had a different attachment for the bomb. The twenty two thousand pound bomb. It was, on take-off it was a little longer run but once we did take off the climb was quite steady and once to height we cruised the normal way. The importance of the target fitted in with the general strategy of the time to cut all German lines of communication we could so they couldn’t bring up troops, ammunition, food and so on and certainly the Arnsberg Viaduct was one of the important viaducts that had to be destroyed. On this occasion when we released the bomb we certainly didn’t have to say, ‘bomb gone,’ because as it fell off the aircraft we went up quite, well a hundred to two hundred feet and it was extraordinary. I never expected quite that reaction. Only two twenty thousand pound bombs were dropped on that occasion and it was quite obvious after the explosion that the viaduct was either totally destroyed or very badly damaged and in any case would take some work to repair. In January 1945 we were briefed to attack the U-boat pens at Bergen in Norway. We made the attack but there were, and we had a fighter escort as well but unfortunately the fighter escort went down to silence the gun emplacements, the German gun emplacements. Just after they did this a number of Focke Wulf 190s and ME109s appeared and started to cause havoc amongst our aeroplanes. Johnny, Johnny Pryor was shot down and I believe somebody else and I remember that Tony Iveson was attacked by a fighter and badly damaged but he got his aeroplane back safely to the UK and got a DFC for his efforts. December 1944 we attacked the U-boat pens on the Dutch islands just off the Dutch coast. They had been attacked a number of times before but the pen, the roof of the pens had not been penetrated and therefore most of the damage was done just outside. However, one or two of our Tallboy bombs did penetrate the roof and caused havoc within the pen area itself and did quite a lot of damage generally. The last operational trip the squadron did during the war was on April the 25th 1945 against the Eagle’s Nest in Berchtesgaden which was very close to the Austrian border. I remember that we hit the Waffen SS barracks, the special troops guarding Hitler and the Gestapo headquarters so the raid was probably worthwhile even though it was right at the end of the war. There had been some attempts to sink the Tirpitz by both the Royal Navy and the US navy but the bombs they were carrying did not have very much effect as they were too small. After that it was decided that 617 squadron would be used to actually get rid of the Tirpitz which was a great menace to shipping in the Atlantic. There were three attempts made to sink the Tirpitz. The first one was made from the UK was a one way trip to Yagodnik and from there from Yagodnik the aircraft then took off to attack the Tirpitz. This trip unfortunately had no success so different methods were thought of to approach the vexed question of getting rid of the Tirpitz. The second and third raids were both carried out from advanced base in Lossiemouth Scotland and for this on occasion, on this occasion we had enough fuel, we had extra tanks to get us there and back without refuelling. A lot of equipment was taken out of the aircraft to make way for the tanks and to ensure that the load wasn’t too heavy once we got out bomb on board. A plan was devised in which there would be two large extra tanks inside the fuselage and to do this a number of things had to be stripped from the aircraft. The armour plating behind the pilot’s back, I regret to say, was removed and everything else we didn’t appear to need was taken out. We had a rear gun, a rear gunner and a turret but we didn’t have a mid-upper gunner. And the tanks when we, I beg your pardon, when we got in the aircraft to start the operation there was an awful smell of petrol throughout and it was clearly dangerous if even a spark was to, would have blown up each aircraft. Our take off was at midnight from Lossiemouth and if a film writer had written the script it couldn’t have been better. There was low cloud and a lot of rain and there we were, our aircraft lined up around the perimeter track waiting for take-off and we could hardly see each other really for the bad weather. However, all went well. We all went off and set course for landfall on the Norwegian coast. We flew over the sea for some hours and our only navigation was an attempt to produce winds on our own. No. Our only navigation aid was finding winds ourselves and any that might be broadcast by Bomber Command. However, at daybreak we all, however at daybreak we all coasted in at the agreed rendezvous and formed up in a gaggle to make the rest of the trip through Norway and on to the Tromso fjord. As we, as we went up the spine between Norway and Sweden we were we made our way towards the turning point for the actual bombing run. All this went very satisfactorily and we turned for the run in and as we neared the Tirpitz we could see the battleship but there was also cloud coming in and to add to our grief they’d put up a large smokescreen all around the, all around it. It was almost impossible to bomb accurately so the trip was aborted and we returned to base.
AP: Yeah.
LBSG: The whole trip took thirteen and a quarter hours and we heard, sorry, the whole trip took thirteen and a quarter hours and on the way back my wireless operator tuned into the news from the BBC and we heard that the Tirpitz had been bombed. We had a very, we had a bit of chuckle about that as we knew. The third trip was a repeat of the second trip but on this occasion the Tirpitz could be seen quite clearly and the ship was, the battleship was sunk. I’d like to say a little bit about the SABS. The bomb site that only 617 Squadron used. It was a very accurate bomb site but needed not only very accurate, accurate settings like the wind velocity at the height we were bombing from, the temperature and other, and other details. It also demanded a completely straight and level flight from the pilot otherwise the bomb aimer could not release the bomb with any confidence. The Lancaster, despite its size was a dream to fly and whatever the air ministry chose to hang on it afterwards it seemed to react very little. It was the most reliable aircraft. Many people said because it had inline engines we were more prone to engine loss because of the cooler that we carried and the inline engines of the Merlin, of the Merlin but that never seemed to affect anybody. The aircraft itself took a lot of punishment and we always had the utmost confidence in it. There is no sound in this world like Merlin engines after they’d been throttled back to reduce power whether it’s on the approach to land or at any other time and that applied to Merlin engines on whatever aircraft they were fitted be it the Lancaster or the Spitfire on which I did quite a, two hundred hours. Clearly like every other crew on operations we were damaged on occasion. We were damaged and one or two incidents I can remember. One was the bomb aimer was lying prone in the bomb aimers position and flak came through the aircraft and filled his flying, the heel of his flying boots, both of them, and part of his, and damaged, damaged part of his flying boots but never hit him, which was extraordinary. And the other great escape I can think of is the wireless operator. He happened to lean forward towards his radio as wireless operators did with his hand on one ear to hear a station he was trying to tune in better when a shell came through one side of the fuselage and exited out of the other. When we landed we sat the wireless operator in his normal position, that is not leaning forward, and measured, took various measurements and realised that if he hadn’t leant forward at that moment the shell would have gone straight through his head. Looking back it seems to me that the worst moments, well they weren’t bad moments but perhaps the most edgy moments were when we waiting on wet grass perhaps at midnight for a very pistol to go off. If it was a green one it meant we were going on ops. If it was a red one it meant ops were cancelled and we sat there chatting away as normally as we could but as soon as we got the green very and got in to the cockpit everything settled down as normal. It was much too much to think about once I got strapped in to think about anything else but the operation. One thing I would like to emphasise very strongly. Without the ground crew there would be no air crew and we always maintained a very friendly relationship. They were there day and night whenever we took off and whenever we came back. Come winter, summer. They were there in the pouring rain and in the snow waiting for us and to service the aircraft as soon as possible once we’d done what we had to do. I have nothing but the highest and fullest praise for the ground crew and I’ve never understood why they never to have been acknowledged in any way and I still think about them as unsung heroes. I’m often asked what it was like flying on operations during the war and I can truly say that even though there might have been very slight tension before we actually knew we were going to get in to the aircraft and go off once we did that once I was strapped in to the cockpit all my tension went and I was concentrating on the job and I feel sure my crew felt the same way.
AP: And -
LBSG: And as we were flying we had to focus on what we were doing and although on occasions we were attacked and there was anti-aircraft fire it was absolutely imperative that we tried to dismiss that and not lose control of what we were supposed to be doing. It was important that our crew worked as a crew and not individually and it was, as far as I know, the rule of Bomber Command that once you got a crew you stayed with it because you got to know each other. You got to trust each other and everybody knew what to do. Everybody knew their job. There was the rear gunner, the mid upper gunner, the navigator, the wireless operator, the bomb aimer and me the pilot and we all had our own work to do even if, even though we had to cooperate with all of them or some of them depending on the circumstances. Attention on the bombing run that team work was foremost. The bomb aimer had to set the correct height, wind speed and airspeed on his bomb sight which he got from the navigator and I would set a course given to me by the, by the navigator in the first place and corrected by the bomb aimer on the run in. Now the corrections in the Lancaster of 617 squadron were made with a little dial on the combing of the instrument panel and it made a one degree alteration look rather large so it is no exaggeration to say that the bomb aimer could also on his bomb sight of one degree correction and it would show up quite large on the indicator that I had which meant a touch on the pedal and the aileron or both as the case may be. This proved a very satisfactory method of correcting very small amounts.
AP: That’s good. So there’s some really good teamwork there between -
LBSG: I was going to say, the, I think a word, can I say, I think, a word about the bomb sight itself may be appropriate. I believe it was the only type of its use in the air force and the bomb aimer and the navigator and the pilot had to work closely together. We relied on the navigator to give the correct height in barometric pressure. The correct wind speed and the correct temperature and one or two other things which the bomb aimer then fed into his bomb sight and when I was given a course to fly it had to be absolutely accurate and the height had to be absolutely accurate. I think we were allowed plus or minus fifty feet and a few knots in airspeed if that but it had to be very accurate. Now, the corrections on the run in were made by the bomb aimer on a dial which showed with a little arrow which went left or right and had degrees marked off on it and the bomb aimer would alter his run in with his bomb site itself and that would show on my dial and one degree ever, I beg your pardon, a one degree error showed up quite largely on my dial so I made the correction in the way that was indicated. The Tallboy and the Grand Slam bombs were a huge asset because it enabled us to hit more accurately the targets and to destroy ones we probably could never have destroyed before.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Benny Goodman. One
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodmanLS150808
PGoodmanLS1501
Conforms To
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Norway
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Norway--Bergen
Norway--Tromsø
Russia (Federation)--Arkhangelʹskai︠a︡ oblastʹ
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Benny Goodman discusses some of his operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron. He discusses attacking the Tirpitz and the use of Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs which required the Lancaster plane to be modified. On a flight against the U-boat pens in Bergen the fighter escort left the squadron to attack the gun emplacements on the ground leaving them exposed to the German fighters which appeared suddenly and attacked them. His last operational flight with the squadron was an operation to Berchtesgaden.
Format
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00:18:03 audio recording
617 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Grand Slam
ground crew
Lancaster
navigator
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
pilot
submarine
Tallboy
Tirpitz