2
25
90
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1539/29127/PAllnuttFJ1621.1.jpg
a4d9d9cc1a23628e697150615f2287a8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1539/29127/PAllnuttFJ1605.1.jpg
1c14abf048e186224f93b4a491a8aa12
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Allnutt, Frank John
F J Allnutt
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Allnutt, FJ
Description
An account of the resource
32 items. The collection concerns Frank Allnutt (436745 Royal Australian Air Force) and contains his log book and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frank Allnutt and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Herbert Ogden
Description
An account of the resource
Herbert Ogden hosted many Australians when they were passing through New York on their way to England. The second photograph is of his house, 26 East 83rd Street.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Format
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One b/w photograph
Language
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eng
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PAllnuttFJ1605, PAllnuttFJ1621
Coverage
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Civilian
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
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United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/127/11/ATurnerB150602.2.mp3
1c6080ee78c66828fc79e2847ce7791d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Turner, Betty
B Turner
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Betty Turner, (– 2015, 2146029), a photograph and two poems. Leading aircraftswoman Betty Turner served in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force at 92 Group Headquarters as a wireless operator. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Betty Turner and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2015-06-02
Identifier
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Turner, B
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Other persons present: Betty Turner’s daughter, Shelley Marshall [SM]
HH: Ok. Here we are, my name is Heather Hughes, and I’m sitting with Betty Turner who was in the WAAFs during World War 2, in Betty’s home in Bierton and it is Tue, Wednesday? , Tuesday, Tuesday the 2nd of June, 2015. Thank you Betty, so much, for agreeing to do this interview today.
BT: You’re very [emphasis] welcome indeed.
HH: Betty I wonder if we could start by talking about where you were born and grew up?
BT: I was born in Aylesbury, I went to school in Aylesbury, and [pause], I went from here and signed up when the war was on - well, at first, of course, I was working at, um, a very – when I was fourteen we had to leave school in those days at fourteen, and I had a job in a very exclusive shoe shop. I always loved that shop, I was bound and determined I was going to get a job there, and I did, and –
HH: Do you remember the name of the shoe shop?
BT: Yes! It was Ivords [?] and we had customers like the Dimbleby boys, their father was away in the war of course when they would come in, and there would be the sister and the two brothers, and mom would come in with them, and I would wait on them for shoes, not realising how famous they [emphasis] were going to be. Anyway, that was my – and then, I decided – I had a boyfriend, who was shot down, over France, and killed, and the very next day I said I’m joining the, the WAAF. I was seventeen at the time, and, so my mother said ‘alright, I’ll take you to join up’ to High Wycombe – we had to go to High Wycombe – and my brother at the same time wanted to come with us, and he said ‘I’m going to join up too’, but he was only fifteen. Anyway [pause, deep breath] I joined up, and this was in December, December 6th I always remember – the date of the, that Caley was shot down – and I, um, went to Wycombe as I say, the next day, and that was about the 7th of December that I actually went to give my signature –
HH: Was that in nineteen - ?
BT: Forty-two.
HH: Forty-two.
BT: Forty-two. But I wasn’t called until January – first week, I believe, but it was January anyway when I actually went, and I left here, and went to [pause] Gloucester. I think it was Gloucester.
HH: And is that where you went for training?
BT: Ye – well… Yes, to sort you out I think in Gloucester, your uniforms, and what you ought to be and things like that you know. I said driver please [?] [laughs] and they killed themselves laughing, I’m only five foot, I wouldn’t reach the pedals on the trucks at all [laughs]. But I think everybody asked to be a driver when they first joined up. Anyway, at that point we went to Morecombe for square-bashing, and when we came back – I think it was Innsworth, I’m not sure, you know, the memory fades a bit doesn’t it? But there [emphasis] they gave us some, sort of, tests [emphasis] about different things and they needed wireless operators apparently, and everybody had to sit around with a paper and pencil, and they would give you, er, records – they would play a record, and they’d say ‘now you’re going to hear some dots and dashes. All I want you to do is to tell me whether they’re the same each time or different’, and so the record would start and we would have to say write it all down, and I apparently did fine, and they thought immediately well ‘she’s ok she could be a wireless operator’, and after I had done my square bashing – that was first – they read that I was coming to Winslow in Buckinghamshire, and I thought ‘ooh dear’ - I wanted to go somewhere exciting [laughs]. But I, there you go, I came home – quite close to home anyway, only ten miles actually away. It was okay, I had the best of both worlds really didn’t I? They said ‘you’re going to 92 Group Headquarters – Bomber Command’. So, I, that’s what I did! I came over to Winslow, and there didn’t seem to be a lot of RAF around but it was because everybody was on shift work, and the hours would be – I can’t remember all the hours but it’s in that, um, brochure I gave you, from like eight o’clock in the morning ‘til midnight, long hours it seemed. Some were shorter hours and then we would have a couple of days off.
HH: And what did you do with your days off?
BT: I’d come home. And my father would, usually, ask me if I was alright, and did I need any money, and sometimes leave me ten bobs [laughs], ten bob, at the side of my bed, and I’d wake up in the morning and I’d say ‘whoopee I’ve got some money!’ [laughs]. We never had any money, and we always seemed hungry. We were always ready to go into a restaurant and eat if we could find a place to do it, you know, because restaurants, things weren’t easy in the restaurants at that time. Anyway so that was fine. The work was just really [emphasis] quite boring, because that’s all you did was put your earphones on and you had a key, and you had, um, you had receiving and you had sending of Morse code constantly, and it was [emphasis] pretty boring.
HH: But very vital.
BT: But vital, I suppose – well I found that out later, but I didn’t know what I did, and it was just different, really. In the morning we would check with the, all the stations that we had, and they’re on their paper – I can’t remember the names of them all – but the different stations that were in that 92 Group then they would send Morse back to us and you know we would answer backwards and forwards. Not plain language, most of the time, it was certain, certain codes that we would send to them. Every half an hour we would have to send a very very powerful signal – I can still remember it today it was V3A – and then we would give them the time, and we’d go ‘dee dee, dee dee’ [making Morse code sounds] until the second hand went onto the twelve we would hit the key, down, and um, apparently it was for other aircraft and everybody to get their time right, you know, er, it was a very powerful signal and it could be heard many many thousands of miles away, but we never knew why we were doing it. We never asked questions. We signed the secrets thing and we never spoke about what we did. My dad asked me about what we did and ‘oh I just Morse code, you know’, but nobody knew. We didn’t know why we were doing it. And then another time we would fill pages of five letter groups, and five letter groups, and we had a pad, you know, a pad of paper that size and it was asking you questions on – you wrote down what you could hear in five letter groups, and then when your pad was full, you’d take all of the girls’, if they had them you’d collect them up and take them into the main room of the house, because we were in like a, like a Nissen type hut part that had been built on the front of the house, so that it was separate. But in the house we would go for other things like we would get - have our pay parade ever Friday, second Friday morning, and ‘quote your last three letters’ and ‘come to attention’ and they’d pay you, which was very nice, on every other week that would happen and um, that was in the house – we’d go in the house for that, and there was also a lot of RAF personnel in the house but we never actually saw the room that they were in, and outside, at night especially, we’d notice a motorbike – a guy with a motorbike, and we assumed that he must be doing something with what we were taking over to the house – we didn’t know of course. And it wasn’t until I went to Bletchley Park, many years later, and I could hear the Morse code going, and after looking at all the things and listening to the people that were leading us around, what we did, and I’m thinking ‘gosh! I remember that’ and ‘I remember this’, and ‘I remember that’, and it dawned on me what we were doing. But it was years afterwards, prior to that I had no knowledge of what we did, at all. Yeah there was a um – but when we were on, um, hours off, of course, that was very nice, we’d also have dances, at camp, we – the girls, were in the stables of the big house –
HH: Was it kind of dormitory type accommodation?
BT: No, it was, strictly – you know what stables look like, with horses in them? Well, we were in those same things but we weren’t horses [laughing]. We had potbelly stoves to keep us warm, you know [laughing], and it had a gutter where the horses used to do their business and it would run down into the drain, but that was cleaned out [laughing] before we went in there. Oh dear, yes, and at times it would be very draughty.
HH: So did you each have your own stable then?
BT: Well, no, there were two of us in the one stable. Oh well, yes, two of us in each stable – pretty sure it was only two of us, yeah I think it was two, but of course, in the long building itself, there would be lots of, lots of stables. Eventually after I had been there about a – two years, I finally got to go in the house, but I’m sure that was servants’ quarters for the girls - some of the girls would go in there, and then any new girls coming along would go in the stables I suppose. Although, when war ended, when VE Day came along, it was very quickly destroyed, our cabin. Everything [emphasis] was destroyed very very quickly. And there was no more Morse code – nothing – it just stopped, and we were all posted to other places. Then [emphasis] I really enjoyed the work [laughs], I was posted to a place called Great Massingham – that’s up near the Wash, we decided, I’ve seen it on the map yes, up near the Wash – and it was, I was put in the Officers’ Mess, in the corner, with a telephone and a desk, and the calls would come in for the boys from their girlfriends or their wives, and I’d be the one to call out their name and say ‘you are wanted on the telephone’, and it was super [emphasis]. And in the morning, instead of going to the cook house like we used to do at Winslow, I would go and I would have a nice fried breakfast, the same as the officers would have. I’d have mine first though before I went on duty, then later on of course they would all come in and have their breakfast, it was very nice. That was a super job! And I actually saw the planes for a change, because we saw no planes on our camp at all, except the Wellingtons at, at um [pause] what is the – not Wing, not Wing, where - oh I can’t think of the name of the – but we used to have to go onto that field aerodrome when we were doing our experience flights which we didn’t enjoy very much really –
HH: What did that involve?
BT: It involved flying around with a pilot, and I think we were supposed to work the set I’m not quite sure [laughing] I can’t remember. It was to find out how difficult it is to keep on frequency so they wanted us to experience, you know, what it was like to fly – I only went up a couple of times though [pause] but it was – I would not volunteer to go. I did not [emphasis] enjoy it. Sometimes the pilots used to make fun of us, be heading for a barrage balloon and say ‘oh I don’t think I’m going to tell her’ [laughing]. They would tease us, in other words, they would tease us, and it wasn’t very nice really. But we did have fun when we were all off duty. We put on pantomime, well we put on one, and then there was a play. But unfortunately, just before I got to Winslow, there had been a Wellington come down and go into one of the houses and kill several people, and one of our sergeants managed to get some people out, and he got fairly [pause] badly burnt in a couple of places, and he got recommended for that. He really was quite a hero to the rest of them, they were all saying ‘what a great job you did’. But it was all over with when I got there – the rubble was there of course, they were cleaning up, but it was quite scary, really scary. [Pause] Our - we would try and get to work, or go down to – we would have bicycles a lot of us. I took my own bike to camp so that I could cycle home if I wanted to, although I preferred to take the bus – was easier.
HH: But did you use your bicycle around the camp?
BT: Yes. No, no we couldn’t cycle around our camp, we were at a big house, and all we had was a big driveway.
HH: Okay so you didn’t need to.
BT: We had… huts, the stables where we slept, and we had to come out and go to the bathrooms and bath huts and stuff there and then another hut was for our meals. Our canteen was at the other place, because we used to have to cycle through the village back to where we worked. The men were lucky, they were able to have lodgings and they had a landlady that would fix them meals and they would have lovely hot dinners when they got home at night and we had to go to the cook house. We had a cook house. But at the end of the war things began to happen a bit more – towards to end of the war, when the prisoners of war from Germany were coming back home we were, they, we were asked to go and volunteer to welcome the prisoners coming back, which was rather good.
HH: And where was that?
BT: That was at Wing I believe – I’m sure it was Wing although no place ever had a sign on it so we never knew where we were really. I think, from what I could work out, that it was Wing, and they were [pause] quite, quite a sad looking lot coming home but so thrilled to be coming home. And I always remember this one boy asked our girl that was our telephonist – one of our telephonist girls – if, um, he would call – if she would call his mother on this number and he gave her, and she said ‘yes I’ll do that for you’, so, when we got back to camp, she was doing some work there, and she phoned this number, and it was the mother that answered the phone, and she said ‘John would be seeing you in a couple of days’, and it was just the noise and um, a man came on then, and this man said ‘who is this?’ and she said ‘well I’m LACW’ so-and-so, what her name was, ‘I’m just telling you that your son will be home in a couple of days, probably, they have to go to a, a centre first for certain things’ - he said ‘well I hope you know what you’re talking about, because we’ve already been told that our son is missing, believed dead – believe killed’, and he was – well, we all cried. I think about it now and I cry a little bit. Yeah, so, um -
HH: That’s one story that at least had that happy ending.
BT: Yes, I know – I won a book once for writing that story out because I said I’ll never forget it. I said a lot of things I do forget, and a lot of things I think I imagine, ‘oh I couldn’t have done that, surely I couldn’t have done that’ sort of thing, ‘I wouldn’t tell anybody that I’m not going to say’ – and, but, I know that was true, because it, it caused such a – the rest of us in, at the cook house – we were all sitting around the table then when she was telling us about it, and we were all [emphasis] practically in tears. But I wonder how many times that happened, you know, I’m sure it must have happened lots of times, I’ve heard of it since actually happening. On this, “Next Generation”, or that “Last Generation”, the programmes that they’ve had – I’ve loved that series I’ve been watching it and I think ‘good on you!’ [laughs] you know, and they’re still going strong, it’s lovely.
HH: Betty what rank did you attain -
BT: LACW
HH: - in the WAAFs?
BT: Leading Aircraftwoman. So I started off as an AC2 and then an AC1, and then an LACW. Yeah. But um, I don’t know that I deserved it – maybe I did [laughs]
HH: I’m sure you did.
BT: I don’t know. I have my pay book still, and it said I was a keen and willing wireless operator, ‘very efficient’ it says [laughter] so –
HH: Well done.
BT: But it wasn’t any good trying to get a job after the war because [laughs] nobody wanted a wireless operator [laughs], a wireless operator.
HH: It would be good to talk about after the war. I just want to go back and ask you what kind of, what kind of [pause] relationships did you have with other WAAFs? I mean did you form quite a strong bond together?
BT: Oh we did yes, um, and it we were going on leave, one or two of us would go together. In fact, when I went on leave with my friend, she said to me, ‘where shall we go for our leave? When’s yours coming up?’, I said ‘mine is coming up on so-and-so’ – ‘so is mine’ she said, ‘let’s go a long way away’, because we would have a free travel warrant, so, I said ‘ok, well where will we go?’, she said ‘let’s go to Edinburgh’, I said ‘that’s a good idea, let’s go to Edinburgh, and we got on the train, and we had a wonderful journey. It was all the forces in the train, and she was a comedian anyway, and she had the place in stiches, it was hilarious [laughs] that whole trip was funny. And we went to the YMCA, YWCA I should say, and booked in, and we put our money in their safe, as they have, and when you go out you just take a certain amount of money with you. This parti – the f – second night I believe we were there, we decided to go to the Cavendish Ballroom, we were going to go to a dance, okay, so we bought our tickets to go in but when we got inside we realised we hadn’t taken enough – to buy our tea, that, or drink or whatever we wanted, and I said well it’s not far from where we’re, you know where we’re staying, ‘I’ll get the trolley, car’ or whatever it was at that time, and ‘I’ll go back and I’ll get us some more money’. ‘Okay’ says my friend, and when I got back to the Cavendish ballroom, there she was, sitting with a couple of Americans. And I said ‘oh, hi’, she said ‘this is so-and-so and this is so-and-so – I told him you like to dance because he likes to dance too’ [laughs], so I said ‘oh alright, I’ll dance with him’, and we not only danced with them, we spent, um, our days, because they were on furlough as well, and we were on furlough, or ‘leave’ as we call it, ‘furlough’ as they call it. And that whole week we spent going to pictures, but Sunday was a very miserable sort of day in Scotland –
HH: Still is in Scotland!
BT: [laughs] we had so many cups of tea, we were, we, we just floated, and we went to the zoo, and we went to, oh I don’t - I can’t remember where we went, but we went to the dancing again, we went, and when I got home back to camp, my friend that I had met in Scotland phoned me and asked me to meet him in London when I was next off. So I said ‘alright’ and we met a few times, and I brought him home to meet mum and dad, and he was in the Eighth Airforce – the American Eighth Airforce –
HH: Eighth in the East!
BT: And, um, we met quite a few times, and then one night the phone rang, I answered it, and – no, I was told, there’s a - you’re wanted on the phone, so I answered it and it was Fred and he said ‘hi Betty, we’re gonna go home, we’ve gotta get ready for the Far East’ because the Japanese were still fighting, of course, and he said ‘but, I want you to marry me before I go – will you marry me?’, and there was a – this is - I don’t like to say this because it makes me feel so stupid – there was an ITMA show on, and the saying was ‘ee, I’ll ‘ave to ask me dad’ in a Northern accent [laughing] and I thought he was kidding me, and that’s what I said [laughing]. Well he didn’t listen to our shows of course, he’d be listening to Jack Benny or Bob Hope or something, and he said ‘well okay then’ [laughing] ‘okay Betty, you ask your dad’ [laughing] ‘if he says, if he says yes’ [laughing]. So anyway I asked my dad and he said ‘no I don’t think that’s a good idea, I think you should just get engaged’, so the next night when Fred called me I said ‘no dad says I can’t get married, but we could get engaged’. ‘No’ he said, ‘I don’t wanna leave this country ‘til I’m – ‘til you’re with me, and you’re married to me’, so [laughing] I said ‘oh alright then, where – ‘ [laughing] how silly now I think about [laughing] so silly, and I, so I said ‘oh well alright then, when?’. Well this was just after VE Day, he said ‘June the 9th’ [pause] I said ‘gosh that’s, that’s awfully quickly, I don’t know if I can do that, because’ I said ‘you do a lot of investigating of girls and I’d have to go through that and that takes a long time’. ‘No’ he said, ‘it’s alright because my, my commanding officer is a, married to a WAAF and he knows what to do and he can just go straight through to your WAAF officer and he will know exactly your character’ etcetera, etcetera, and, um, ‘there’ll be no problem’. So I said ‘ohh, okay, June the 9th it is’, he said ‘besides it’s my birthday and [laughing, unclear] on my birthday’, so, that’s what happened.
HH: So where did you get married?
BT: In Saint Mary’s church, in the local church in, in Aylesbury, and we had neighbours helping us, and my c-, my warrant officer, he, uh, booked a hotel in London for a couple of nights, and we had all sorts of volunteers for sandwiches because it was very difficult [emphasis] to get things, and the girl across the road, was a Belgian girl married to a British tommy, and she had come over and she was the same size as me. She still had her, her wedding gown, and she said ‘you can borrow my wedding dress’, I said ‘well I want to be married in uniform’ – my father wouldn’t let me, but I wanted to be married, but he said ‘no you’re not, you only get married once and I want you to be married in white’ so –
HH: You were married in white.
BT: - I was married in white, yup. And we had a nice, quite a nice wedding and reception at mummy’s house. We were squashed but it was alright, we had fun. But then, we went on the train, to London to the hotel that my warrant officer had booked for us. As a matter of fact he sat in the same carriage as us, and my husband said he was quite upset, he kept staring at me like, staring at him, like ‘you’d better look after that girl’ [laughs]. Oh well, yes.
HH: And then did he depart soon after that for the Far East?
BT: Yes, yes, about, about two weeks. No - I don’t know that it was two weeks, it could have been – it could have been less, I don’t know, but it was a quick, quick time. I know I met him a couple of times in Norwich because he was going, and I went up there quickly to see him before, before he left, and that was it and I didn’t see him again until the following February.
HH: And what happened then?
BT: Well, what happened then? I went over on the Queen Mary, I went down to um, what was the name of the place… was it Innsworth? Think it was Innsworth, for about four or five days, waiting to go on the boat, and they did an FFI (Free From Infection, as you know) with everybody, and those of us who were in the We- couldn’t give a darn about that we were used to that monthly you know, but some of these poor girls had never had anything like that done to them and, they didn’t like it at all, and some of them had babies. But, um, we got on the Queen Mary and so many days later we arrived in New York, and I had said to my husband, ‘if you’re not in New York to meet me, I’m not going to get – I’m going to get a boat back, I’ve got enough money, I’m going to get a boat back’, and he said ‘well I’ve been called up to go to spring training down to Texas because he was with, being picked for the Dodgers, Pat Derry [?] had signed him up for spring training to see, along with many others, I might add – because he played baseball here with the American Air Force, and he said ‘so I don’t know if I can’, I said ‘well if you’re not there I’m not, I’m going, going home’, so anyway he said he would be there no matter what. So I wasn’t ever really sure. And then they were calling over the tannoy ‘would Betty Ethel Turner please come to dockside’, well my name isn’t Betty Ethel Turner, it’s Betty May Turner, and we were in alphabetical order in this cabin – we even had a Major Turnipseed’s [?] wife, in there [unclear, laughs], anyway, um, we all helped Betty Ethel Turner get things in her case, but she wasn’t expecting to go, they were going to take the girls that weren’t being met to their own organisations, and anyway - so I, and I was a bit disappointed when Betty Ethel went, but anyway about ten minutes later they called out ‘will Betty May [emphasis] Turner please report to dockside’ and everybody helps me get all my stuff together. So I’m walking down the gangplank, and here’s poor Betty Ethel Turner coming back with her bag – ‘they tried to give me to your husband’ [laughing], I can’t tell you how he said [pause] but he said ‘that is not my wife!’ and he [unclear, laughing, possibly ‘worried him to death’].
HH: So you were reunited – you were reunited?
BT: So he was very relieved when I came down the pla – in fact he jumped the barrier, he shouldn’t have done of course but he did. And they all looked so different, they were in zoot suits and those fedora type hats, you know, so [emphasis] different. Yes.
HH: And how long did you spend in the States then?
BT: Twenty-four years.
HH: Where were you living?
BT: Detroit, Michigan.
HH: And how did, how did you feel about leaving and going to live in the States?
BT: I didn’t – I was unhappy leaving my family of course, but really it was excitement for me and if you’ve been away from home living since you were seventeen, I, by that time, well I spent my 21st birthday in the mid-Atlantic, on the Queen Mary, that was my 21st birthday. That’s why I was glad my dad said yes I could get married - well, they didn’t really agree but they agreed to in the end, because they could stop me up to twenty-one, they could have stopped me, if they’d really wanted to. But, I had a good life out there, but he didn’t make, he didn’t make the baseball team and he came back four weeks later, so I, when I went I was totally alone with strangers, and it was, it was strange, but, you know, after, after he came back we lived with his parents while [emphasis] we built our own house in the next block. And then of course I had my girls, and I belonged to the Daughters of the British Empire out there, which is an organisation as, as you probably know, and um, and then it all sort of went – mmm, after twenty four years I suppose it would have been, I, in nine- in the year before I bought him a set of golf clubs for Christmas [laughs], which I never should have done I suppose really, I never saw him again he was on the golf course – well that’s just a, a, you know , a thumbnail story.
HH: So you just came back, you just decided to come back?
BT: Well Donna had come back here, my oldest daughter, we sent her over to see nan and grandad as a, as a graduation present when she was eighteen, now she was older than I was when I left home, oh, when I left home the first time, and so it seemed ok but I did miss her terribly. And then of course this one was going, and one thing and another and I thought [sighs] ‘can’t be doing with this’, and um he, more or less agreed to it of course. He didn’t remarry, I didn’t remarry, I did have a partner for many years, here, but um, after I’d been here a while.
HH: But you’ve done this amazing thing to reassemble your family near Aylesbury.
BT: Well, part of it, yes. But it w – my mother was dead against divorce, they thought it was terrible my getting a divorce, but my mother was ill for a while and I would go over every day, take her a – do the house cleaning and, and look after her, and when she went into hospital she didn’t come out again – she was ninety-odd mind you, ninety, ‘bout ninety-four actually I figured. And um, then my father, and she said to me ‘everything happens for the best you know, because’ she said ‘what would we have done’. And then of course dad became ill, and I had him here for two years before he went to hospital for only just a few days and died, and he was ninety-seven when he died.
HH: So you’ve got longevity in your family.
BT: Well, I, I don’t know I don’t think so – well, so far it’s been long, but, I do have, um, I do have cancer. So I, you know, you never know do you? No.
HH: But it’s been in more recent years, Betty, that you have taken to producing these really very beautiful artworks about your memories of the WAAF – tell us about that.
BT: Well, well, when you’re alone more than anything – because I really didn’t start, um, well, Terry wa – did I do it while Terry was alive?
SM: Not so much.
BT: Not a lot, did I? I would – I know, it was a Christmas, he said ‘what d’you want for Christmas?’ and I said ‘I really would love some watercolours for Christmas’, and I’ve got a box of watercolours that he bought me for Christmas, with brushes, and I started, and I didn’t do very much at first, not at first, and then I – he was poorly, and I nursed him for about six years before he died, and all that time that he was poorly, I was able to sit and do my painting and stuff. And I did a lot of it then, quite a lot of it, and then after he died, and he’s been gone six years – so it’s been about twelve years that I’ve done the painting.
HH: And now, you could’ve chosen all kinds of subjects to paint, but you chose something quite specific, why?
BT: I chose, because I could see them. I could see the girls that I’ve painted. I would get, I would get a book and look at some, one or two, that I’ve painted with a plane in it possibly I’ve had to copy, because I wasn’t on an aerodrome, and they were, and I wanted to recognise them as well, you know, but others I’ve just remembered when we were, for instance, cleaning our, cleaning our irons in the dirty – everybody says we had lovely hot water, we never [emphasis] had lovely hot water, by the re- time the rest of us were coming out of the cook house that water would be ho-, warm, lukewarm and greasy, the grease would be floating on the top, but we still had to rinse them you know. What else would we do? Well we had, nowhere to, nowhere to wash the [unclear], anyway – and so that’s where I’ve done most of my art. Or if somebody call– once or twice somebody’s called up ‘Betty would you do one with so-and-so’, um, ‘I’d like one, I’d like a birthday card for my, for my mother, she’s going to be ninety’ or something ‘and I want - and she was in the WAAF and I want you to do a postcard or a birthday card for her’, so I would do one, one of those, and te- and Shelley my daughter, bless her, she copies them, well not copies them, yes she’s got a copier, and I, so I try and keep the originals and the copies, and the copies go. And that’s what the Association does when I do a card, I send them a copy and they keep it.
HH: In your view, do you think that the WAAFs have received the recognition that they deserve in the years since World War 2, for what they did?
BT: Absolutely not, no, that’s a - that’s a real sore point with me. I could go into the town for Memorial Day and the men, the - ‘come on, come on, let’s line up’, and then I’m there, and I even have my tie and my blue shirt and my blazer with a, with my medal even, but they w-, they wouldn’t bring me to the front. The men come to the front, and you, you know, sort of thing, but it’s like that all the time. And the memorial in London, well. Those coats on a hook. I haven’t seen it, I’ve seen it in a photograph, but I haven’t – I don’t go up to London, I’m not in a fit state to go up to London really, I s’pose I could go, I could persevere and go, make up my mind I’m going, I would love to see the Bomber Command memorial thing up there, I think that must be wonderful – but it’s just the bomber boys isn’t it, the boys that flew, who were absolutely wonderful I think, but everybody else behind those boys were wonderful too, weren’t they?
Other: Indeed.
BT: And everybody - I go to museums and it’s all planes and where are the WAAF? They were there. But you don’t get any recognition at all. Very seldom anyway. The films – you see films of the boys and the planes, but very few WAAF. It might be a love story so they have to put a WAAF in it.
HH: I was going to say -
BT: And she’s an officer’s [unclear] –
HH: - it seems to me that that seems, you know, if you look at, films and things since the war that’s been the way in which WAAFs have tended to be portrayed is as partners or as the love interest rather than as, you know, serious participants in the war effort.
BT: Yes. That’s right, yes, yes. That’s right.
SM: Can I say something here? The one thing that I notice going to the WAAF reunions is the amazing variety of jobs that they had, that the WAAF had during the war. The engine fitters, the plane deliverers, there are so many other things that they did that were men’s jobs, and these little ladies who looked as though they couldn’t blow a feather away, were just fantastic. I was just full of admiration for them, and that isn’t recognised enough.
BT: That’s right. That one woman that we were talking – one lady that sat next to you – what did she do, Shelley?
SM: She was a Stirling engine fitter.
BT: A Stirling engine fitter.
Shelly: And she was four-foot-nothing.
BT: [laughing] Now she’s a four-foot-nothing.
HH: Do you think that that started during the war though? In the sense that there was a certain ambiguity to the role that women were playing, I mean, it was obviously a necessary role to release um, men to take part in front line duty, and especially in Bomber Command with the attrition rate being quite high, um, but there was still nevertheless an ambivalence as to whether women should be playing that role.
BT: Oh yes, oh yes.
HH: Did you feel that, that at the time?
BT: Where I was stationed, not so much, because there were quite a few WAAF there and the men, they would not be on the set as much as we would be, but they would be charging the batteries and all sorts of things like that you know, and you – the men that were there a lot of times were photographers and guards, that – we would be teased, as WAAF, I mean they would say ‘go fetch something’ and it wasn’t there or it- ‘what the heck do you want’ you know, no, you got used to that sort of thing. Or if they had a joke, oh, ‘tell Betty, she’ll laugh’, you know, and I’d laugh but I wouldn’t know what they were talking about sometimes, hadn’t a clue [laughs], very innocent, sort of, you know, but um, it was – but I’ve noticed it a lot more since the last, oh I don’t know, I don’t think when I was in the states that it ever came up, because they didn’t know what WAAF were in the – I did have some friends that were in the WAAF though that married Americans, ‘cause we had this club where quite a few English girls and quite a few of them were in the WAAF, or several of them were in the WAAF anyway, because they were working with Americans some of them, on camp, and they, they were closely working with them and became friendly, very friendly, some of them. But on the whole it was since I’ve been here I notice the, the, sort of - Oh, if I told people, and I don’t do it very often, I’ve done it more lately than I ever have in my life, I’ve said I was in the WAAF and they say ‘oh were you? What did you do?’ and I’d tell them, ‘oooh’, you know, the minute you mention Bletchley Park that’s the only way you’ll get any notice, because that’s had publicity, and, you know, that sort of thing. I don’t know. But I do wish we had – on one of my friends, as a matter of fact my best friend, Jane, she thought that we’ve got to have a memorial up at the Arboretum, we’ve got to have something, and she started, and she planned it, and it was taken out of her hands by a few people in the Association, and her village, and it was built not the way she wanted it to be built, and she was warned that it wouldn’t last this particular way these people were going to do it, and it just broke her heart and even now we’ve got to spend a lot of money now getting it cleaned up and straightened up the way – actually, it would be better to take it down and start all over again, the way Jane wanted it done, it’s been so sad and we’re spending too much money on it, keeping it clean. And one thing and another, and that’s the only one we’ve got, that I know of, there, and that’s at the Arboretum, up your way, isn’t it?
HH: It’s Staffordshire isn’t it? Alrewas.
BT: Yeah. It’s quite a lovely place, but terribly disappointing that particular – so it’s good to have something, isn’t it?
HH: And I hope, very much, that you will approve of what we plan to do in terms of commemorating the WAAFs’ contribution in the new Bomber Command centre.
BT: I hope so. And I wish you the very best of luck in getting it done. I know that I won’t be alive to see it, but I shall hope that my family will go and see it.
HH: Well Betty thank you very much for that interview [telephone rings]
BT: Oh sorry, I’ll turn it -
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Betty Turner
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Great Britain. Women's Auxiliary Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Betty Turner served in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force with Bomber Command at 92 Group Headquarters, Winslow, and later at RAF Great Massingham, reaching the rank of leading aircraftswoman. She recounts living in chilly stables, being quite bored by Morse code, and the life-long bond that was forged between her and other Women’s Auxiliary Air Force members. She married an American whom she met during the war and they lived together in the United States for 24 years. After their divorce she settled close to her family in Aylesbury in the United Kingdom, where she had grown up. Betty Turner has been painting images from her days in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force for twelve years because the memories of her service remain so vivid; some have been used for the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force Association annual Christmas card.
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Christina Brown
Heather Hughes
Format
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00:50:39 audio recording
Identifier
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ATurnerB150602
Date
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2015-06-02
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Norfolk
United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
arts and crafts
entertainment
ground personnel
love and romance
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Great Massingham
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/119/1215/PThomasWH1501.2.jpg
745fc204912c7bac71a5523c73801932
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/119/1215/AThomasWH150711.1.mp3
b0bbf81f2421a7d15357a2b007230236
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: Ok Bill.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Thank you for allowing me to come into your home and interview you. It’s a real pleasure to meet with a veteran like yourself.
WT: I’ll give you, I’ll give you the bill later on.
BB: Thank you very much. Ok. What’s your birthday date?
WT: 28th January 1922.
BB: And place of birth?
WT: Redruth in Cornwall.
BB: Redruth. And did you go to school there as well?
WT: Yes I did.
BB: And you did your school certificate and all that kind of thing.
WT: I did.
BB: Ok. When did you, did you volunteer to join the RAF or were you conscripted and then decide for aircrew?
WT: Volunteered because as I said I’ve got that thing all written out. We had, in 1938 they started a flight of the Air Defence Cadet Corp.
BB: Yeah
WT: I joined that because our headmaster was an ex-fighter pilot in the First World War. And then I left school to start work so I couldn’t carry on with the flight but I managed to find the town flight and joined them
BB: And what was your pre-war occupation?
WT: In local government.
BB: Ok.
WT: On the health department side.
BB: And what attracted you to wanting to volunteer for aircrew?
WT: I think it, it was our headmaster who was, as I say, he was a fighter pilot.
BB: The ex RAF sea pilot. Yes.
WT: Ex RAF.
BB: Yeah. Good. He encouraged you to do that.
WT: Not only do that when I, when I was working, walking down past his house, as I had to, I heard, ‘Thomas. Why haven’t you joined the ATC?’ I said, ‘Well,’ ‘It’s the school.’ ‘There’s one down the end of your road. I’ll see you tomorrow night at three.’
BB: Good. So you, you volunteered for aircrew. You obviously went for air crew selection.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they obviously graded you as, as a bomb aimer or did you go for a particular -
WT: I wanted to be a pilot.
BB: Right. And what happened with that that you couldn’t be. Were they oversubscribed or they just needed bomb aimers?
WT: No well I came out from doing the stuff. I went up to Sywell.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Tiger Moths.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Well I got twelve and a bit hours in but I never saw it
BB: And then you were scrubbed.
WT: Well I could take off. I could do everything in the air
BB: But the landing was a problem.
WT: Landing was a problem. On the little mini run, place -
BB: Yes.
WT: We had.
BB: Yes
WT: But the big one I could get in at. The chief flying instructor
BB: Right.
WT: Took me on a check and he said, ‘I’ll try my best but I don’t know what I can do,’ but he couldn’t.
BB: Anyway, so you were remustered as a bomb aimer.
WT: No. As a NavB.
BB: Oh as a Nav oh as a NavB. Ok. Right.
Other: Excuse me for just a second. Turn it off and press that to start again. Hold that down to this constant.
BB: Ok.
Other: Ok, right.
BB: So -
Other: I want to go and check on my dog.
BB: Ok. So -
Other: I’d better check on the dog in the car.
BB: Ok.
WT: Oh alright my dear.
BB: A NavB.
Do you want me to get up?
BB: A navigator bracket bomb aimer ok. Now, was that the half brevet with the B on it?
WT: No the old-
BB: Oh as the old observer. Ok.
WT: Oh yes.
BB: The flying O.
WT: That’s what I got.
BB: Right.
WT: ‘cause I went to Canada. Eventually.
BB: Oh you went, part of the old Empire Training School.
WT: I did. And I did my bomb aiming and gunnery. And then to oh I’ve forgotten what it’s called now - L’Ancienne-Lorette. And I did my navigation training there. I must have come out fairly well because I got granted a commission.
BB: Right.
WT: So the first six, we never knew which ones out of thirty two were commissioned and then I went to Prince Edward Island and we did three or four weeks special training there to go out over the sea. Navigation and all that. So -
BB: Ok.
WT: That finished.
BB: Right.
WT: Back to Moncton and that was the holding unit.
BB: Yeah.
WT: There for ages waiting to go back to England and eventually doing so. I had come over to Canada on the Queen Elizabeth.
BB: Wow.
WT: Came back on the Aquitania.
BB: Which of course had been converted to a trooper so it wasn’t very luxurious.
WT: Luxurious oh it was luxurious enough.
BB: It was enough, still luxurious.
WT: oh it was alright. And then down to the holding unit waiting to be, go somewhere. We were pushed here there and everywhere and eventually back again and told we were then going to Scotland to something, I said, ‘What is that for? Bomb aimers.
BB: Bomber aimer.
WT: So they converted us from that to bomb aiming.
BB: I see. Right. And so what time, at what date did you actually go, finish that training?
WT: Oh I can do it.
BB: Ok.
WT: Do it from here. [?]
BB: Roughly.
WT: Monckton. Harrogate. Oh back to England in November ’43.
BB: November ‘43 so -
WT: And then to Harrogate.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And then we were at Sidmouth, back to Harrogate again and eventually up to Wigtown.
BB: Oh.
WT: That was April ’44.
BB: Ok and you joined so your OTU where you crewed up. Where was that?
WT: That was down at Castle Donington in May.
BB: Castle.
WT: ’44.
BB: And was that? When my uncle was flying for 9th squadron at Bardney, an Australian pilot he did his OTU at Kinloss.
WT: Ah huh.
BB: And they threw them in to a big hangar and all the navs and the pilots and the air gunners and the bomb aimers were all in this big hangar and they virtually crewed up until they found their own crew.
WT: This is what we did.
BB: Good. So it seemed to have been an RAF -
WT: That was the way of doing it. Yes.
BB: Programme.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And it was, it was very good because each crew kind of found the people they kind of trusted to fly with and they’d ask questions like, to the pilot particularly, ‘Were you alright on your course?’ ‘What were you?’ ‘Oh I was above average.’ ‘You’ll do.’ And it was usually the navigator that found the pilot.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And once they’d got those two, ‘oh I met a bomb aimer over there. A guy I liked.’
WT: This was the way we did it.
BB: And that was exactly the same -
WT: We did it the same way.
BB: That you did it.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Ok and so you were all taking each other on trust at that stage.
WT: Sure and then we went on from there to Prangtoft sorry, Sandtoft.
BB: Sandtoft.
WT: And then Hemswell for Lanc finishing school and then I did what, I was transferred then from there to 166 at Kirmington and 166 squadron was there and we were the 3rd flight. AB. I think it was C flight. And they -
BB: And what were they flying at the time? Lancs?
WT: Well that was Lancs.
BB: Lancs. Yeah.
WT: And what they did was they they nearly burst C flight ready and then we went back actually down to Scampton.
BB: Right.
WT: As 153.
BB: Ok.
WT: And we were the first aircraft to land at Scampton ’cause they had just put the stuff in. We were the first aircraft to land there. In A Able which was somebody else’s kite anyway.
BB: Yes.
WT: But er yeah we went along the runway the lads were all waving. He said, ‘There’s mine’
BB: Now, when my uncle was on 9 squadron in ’43 of course. This was a bit later on in the war. The pilot i.e. my uncle and his navigator flew a second observer, a second crew. They went with a regular crew on a raid.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Who were about to finish their tour so the pilot and the navigator flew on that raid as supernumerary just to see what it was like.
WT: Only one. It was only the pilot went from our -
BB: Ok. Right.
WT: ‘cause he -
BB: They still did that in that place by the time you -
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They did one trip.
BB: Yeah. As a spare bod. And -
WT: That’s right.
BB: They came back.
WT: That’s right.
BB: And then got their own crew.
WT: That’s right.
BB: Was the air, was the Lancaster you had on 153 a brand new one or was it, had it been recycled?
WT: Well -
BB: From another crew?
WT: Well it was one of the, it was one of the -
BB: One of them.
WT: In fact we didn’t get I Item until about four or five and then it was regular hours.
BB: Ok.
WT: Flying. That’s what it says up there.
BB: Yeah my uncle did much the same thing. He did, he did it seemed to be a Bomber Command practice.
WT: Yeah.
BB: That they got the pilot and the nav to fly these initial sorties.
WT: Ahum.
BB: And then they were given a gash not gash but spare Lancs or –
WT; Yeah.
BB: To fly one or two trips.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: And then their own brand shiny new Lancaster arrived from the factory and they had that for the whole of the rest of their tour. My uncle’s Lancaster was called Spirit of Russia and it finished the war with a hundred and nine ops.
WT: Did it?
BB: And so it was lucky. But anyway we’re not talking about my uncle we’re talking about.
WT: Thomas.
BB: So there you are on ops.
WT: Yeah and we -
BB: With your scratch crew. Yeah.
WT: Yes and we carried on right up until well we did one on the 3rd of February ’45. No sorry the 7th of March ’45. And on the 8th we did a grand loop.
BB: Ah.
WT: Our pilot passed out.
BB: Oh.
WT: We think it was a fit and we were on our way to Castle.
BB: Ah.
WT: And we came out and [wing co Piley?] said, ‘You’ll be flying tonight’ and we said, ‘Not [so and so] likely until we know what’s happened to the skipper.’ He said, ‘You’ll be on a charge.’ I said, ‘I’ll see you there. Sir’ and left it at that.
BB: So, what, the was pilot was
WT: He -
BB: Obviously written off.
WT: Yes he was pretty.
BB: Wrtten off.
WT: He was gone. By that time they’d taken him away. By the time we’d got gathered together and he came back, tapped me on the shoulder and said, ‘It’s alright. The spare crew are going.’ so I saw him in the mess.
BB: He didn’t give you a spare pilot to fly that night.
WT: No. Well he wanted us to fly.
BB: Fly. So you didn’t do that.
WT: We didn’t go. No. We just didn’t. It was -
BB: That was your last trip?
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: So what happened then, Bruce went into hospital and eventually they realised he wasn’t coming out. They sent us home on leave and brought us back and I can’t remember whether they gave us three weeks or anyway we came back again and we did our last three with a Canadian no an Aussie pilot who’d lost his crew and had three to do.
BB: Right. Ok that -
WT: So he did three.
BB: That was usually the way.
WT: We thought we should have done one more so what we did was twenty nine and a half ‘cause we had an abortion in the middle of it.
BB: Right. Right. Ok and I gather that rather unfairly French targets counted for half.
WT: No.
BB: At that time of the war.
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: In fact the first one was Fort [Frederick Heinrich] just on the Dutch coast.
BB: Oh right. Ok.
WT: But that was a full.
BB: Ok.
WT: That was full.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They were all full.
BB: Yeah.
WT: ‘Cause we didn’t do very many French ones.
BB: No. Not at that stage. No.
WT: No. We were going out.
BB: No. No. Right.
WT: Including Dresden.
BB: Yes. Now what was you’re, ok we’ll get to Dresden later.
WT: Yes.
BB: ‘Cause it’s been quite controversial and everybody sees that as the bad thing that Bomber Command did. Um what what’s your opinion of that?
WT: My opinion is as I’ve said to many people we bombed Dresden because we, one, we were told to. But it turns out afterwards that Mr Churchill was given from the Russians three, three targets that needed to be hit, Dresden and two others. I don’t know which they were. And he was given to us, he gave them to Bomber Harris and said, ‘There’s the three. You do them whenever you think right.’ And we went on the Dresden -
BB: Yeah.
WT: Trip.
BB: Yeah Churchill gave them to Portal who was chief of the air staff.
WT: Yes and he -
BB: And Portal gave them to Harris.
WT: Yeah and Harris, Harris sent them.
BB: Just did what he was told basically.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah [?]
WT: But Harris said to us, you know, we didn’t, he chose them.
BB: Yes.
WT: He chose Dresden. Ten hours twenty that was.
BB: Yes it was a long trip.
WT: It was. And it was the best bonfire night I’ve ever seen.
BB: Yes it did. It was rather grand.
WT: But -
BB: As far as the crews were concerned –
WT: I found out afterwards and I’ve got the book saying -
BB: Yes.
WT: That Dresden was a target. It was full of troops. They were making very small arms stuff.
BB: Yeah.
WT: For submarines and things like that all scattered all over the place.
BB: Yeah it was a -
WT: So -
BB: Legitimate target.
WT: A legitimate target.
BB: Legitimate target. Yes. So that was Dresden and I think in the post war my own opinion and this is my own opinion and you know Churchill wanted to stand in the Conservative government. Labour were coming up and what we understand of labour it’s now called Labour it was a socialist government coming up and he wanted to back away from the actual how effective Bomber Command had been and um and more or less threw Harris to, to the wolves.
WT: And washed his hands.
BB: And washed his hands of it. But he did the same with Dowding after the Battle of Britain so there we go it says something about the great Churchill doesn’t it?
WT: No. I don’t, don’t respect him.
BB: No.
WT: Anymore.
BB: Anyway -
WT: Sorry.
BB: Enough of that.
WT: Go on.
BB: No. No. It’s ok but I saw Dresden on your bookcase and I thought I’d ask about it.
WT: I got it there.
BB: Now getting back to the crew.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And how you all trusted each other and had to rely on each other.
WT: Yeah.
BB: What, were there any, I mean were you scared?
WT: No.
BB: You weren’t scared.
WT: Never scared.
BB: Ok. Funny I’ve heard this a lot from Bomber Command crews. They weren’t, they were apprehensive but they weren’t particularly scared.
WT: No. We just went in and did it.
BB: And did it. Yeah ok. Now we’ve read a lot, or I’ve read a lot, there’s been a lot of post-war um study on LMF issues.
WT: Yes.
BB: Lack of moral fibre issues. In your time in Bomber Command did you ever come across anything of that sort?
WT: I think there was one. One night that I never found out true there was three of us three kites on a set of pads.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Or whatever you call them.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And we did a run up and then we used to come outside -
BB: Yeah.
WT: For a smoke or whatever knowing that the signal would go up, get in your kites, and there was a pilot on one of those things and I didn’t know him sat in the hedge smoking a cigarette and there was a little bit of a kafuffle and three staff cars came down and he went with them. Now, that was the bloke who had refused to go that night. When we got back everything was hushed.
BB: Was he commissioned?
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: We didn’t, I don’t know what had happened to him. I didn’t know the guy.
BB: He was just posted. That was it. Gone.
WT: It was just, he was just taken off. Yeah.
BB: Yeah ok. What year would that be roughly? Roughly. Doesn’t have to be exact.
WT: I can’t remember. It was certainly in ’44.
BB: Ok.
WT: ’45 I mean.
BB: ’45.
WT: The beginning of ’45.
BB: Because, coming back to my late uncle’s crew his rear gunner um Sergeant Clegg had been a pre-war warrant officer but had been busted down to sergeant many times for doing nasty things, naughty things I should say. I won’t go into details.
WT: Right. No.
BB: But he was always in and out of Sheffield. You know what Sheffield was?
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. He was always in and out of Sheffield and that’s another place that doesn’t have much publicity. It was the air crew rehabilitation centre or whatever they wanted to call it.
WT: Ahum.
BB: But I only found this out by looking at the form 500, 540.
WT: 540.
BB: Yeah and it had all the missions for my uncle and the crews and you’d see Sergeant Clegg and then you’d see three or four trips no Sergeant Clegg some other gash gunner had gone in and I asked some survivors on my late uncle’s crew what about Clegg? At first they were all very protective and then they said well actually Clegg was a bit of a lad and he got into trouble with drink and women and was always been sent to Sheffield but in in the air he was a perfect rigger just I mean you know my uncle trusted him implicitly and when he was at Sheffield my uncle felt really, really uncomfortable with this gash gunner sitting at the back who he didn’t know. But you know he got, he got through his tour unfortunately my uncle but was killed instructing.
WT: Our wireless op he was, he was an Australian and he was a silly B really and he drank like old boots so when he got in the kite he would do everything he had to do but Jack, our navigator was a great guy ‘cause he knew there was a group, a message to come. I’ve forgotten was it half hourly -
BB: Yeah.
WT: Quarter hourly.
BB: Half hourly.
WT: He’d give Digger a kick.
BB: Usually the weather and, yeah.
WT: We’d could usually hear, ‘Digger wake up you silly B.’ And he’d be, ‘Oh oh alright,’ he says and he never missed, he had everything down, he never missed a thing. He knew exactly where we were going.
BB: Yeah. That’s great. My uncle’s navigator was the old man of the crew. He was -
WT: Yeah.
BB: He was thirty two.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: He’d been a postmaster in the Isle of Man and had volunteered to be a navigator because he was very good at maths but he was the old man of the crew and the rest of the crew called him Pop. Because the average age on, the average age on my uncle’s crew was what nineteen, twenty.
WT: Ahum.
BB: My uncle himself he was twenty one when he was killed. And that’s having done thirty trips.
WT: I was, I got I was twenty one in Canada. While I was in Canada.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I got deferred service so so such a long time.
BB: Yeah.
WT: In fact I registered as I had to do.
BB: Was that because you were local government job that was deferred?
WT: No nothing to do with that at all. ‘cause they were happy.
BB: It wasn’t a reserved occupation or anything.
WT: No it wasn’t.
BB: No.
WT: It wasn’t reserved. What happened was I signed on as we had to do and I said look here’s my number. Oh yes well that’s ok. Three weeks later I got called up for the army and [noise off] that’s somebody downstairs.
BB: Oh right.
WT: Don’t take any notice of that. And I got called up for the army and I managed to get out of that with a big brigadier somebody that we well knew. He rang them up and he said silly B. He told you what was happening because they were going to come and fetch me.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So that worked out alright.
BB: Good.
WT: Because, you know it didn’t always go right.
BB: No.
WT: I was lucky.
BB: So there were, there were evidence of LMF when you were on the squadron.
WT: Just that one.
BB: Just that one.
WT: Just that I know of.
BB: Yeah. Exactly. Just that you know of. And he was commissioned.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. I’ve heard other stories where had it been a sergeant air crew Harris was so worried about this kind of thing that we would call it post-traumatic stress disorder.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Today um they were, they were lined up in front of the whole squadron, stripped of their chevrons.
WT: That’s right.
BB: And their brevets taken off. Which was very very harsh but it did get the message. And other aircrews I’ve spoken to they were more scared of that happening to them.
WT: That they -
BB: Then facing the Germans.
WT: So that kept them going.
BB: And I suppose that was Harris’ view. You can either be scared of me or you can be scared of them.
WT: Sure.
BB: Make your choice.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Um but it now the Americans had a completely different attitude to it in the 8th air force and they were flying daylight raids.
WT: Ahum.
BB: As you know. So there was a different thing. The other commands, coastal, fighter, transport they had their, it wasn’t so prevalent.
WT: No.
BB: In those commands. But it’s, it’s, it’s an issue that is very interesting academically and the Sheffield thing. So that might be something that might be an aspect of the Bomber Command research.
WT: [?]
BB: No I’m just saying but you knew of it, it happened on your squadron and that was -
WT: That’s it.
BB: Quietly posted away.
WT: Didn’t take no notice of it.
BB: Yes, that’s right. I mean, you know, a very good friend of my father’s, a chap called Musgrave who was a pathfinder, a pre-war fitter when the heavies came in he volunteered to be a flight engineer, went to St Athan, came out with [E] joined his crew at the Heavy Conversion Unit and went on and did his thing but he did ninety three ops at the end and I said to him once, sadly he’s no longer with us but I have his log books and he said, ‘Well, you know we were dead anyway after four,’ four to five ops in that tour no statistically, statistically -
WT: I know. Yes.
BB: Dead. So let’s go.
WT: I’m going to empty that.
BB: Oh I’m sorry. Right.
WT: Are you going to switch it off or not? Whichever you want to do.
BB: No I’ll just.
WT: I’ll run.
BB: No don’t run. Take your time.
WT: No. No.
BB: Take your time.
WT: It’s only two minutes.
BB: Yeah.
[Pause]
BB: Ok.
WT: Sorry about that.
BB: No, don’t be. No, it’s fine.
WT: You can’t stop it you see.
BB: No. I know you can’t. Thank you very much.
WT: You know.
BB: So that’s great.
WT: You know.
BB: That’s great.
That’s great. Sure
BB: We’ve covered why you wanted to join, you joined, you got re-mustered from pilot to bomb aimer sorry NavB er went to Canada for your initial training.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And then came back to the Heavy Conversion Unit. Lancaster finishing school.
WT: Right.
BB: And went to the OTU and got your crew.
WT: Yes. That’s right.
BB: And you did your, you did your trip. Was it twenty nine do you remember? You told me.
WT: We did twenty nine. I always say one was a half.
BB: Ok.
WT: We got out one night and we had an engine go.
BB: A boomerang.
WT: And she wasn’t very, we weren’t very happy but we carried on for a while and then another one started to go sick so we turned -
BB: Now -
WT: So we turned and came back.
BB: Yeah.
WT: That was about -
BB: What mission, what sortie was that?
WT: That was about the 8th of February.
BB: 8th of, yeah.
WT: Politz I think it was called.
BB: 8th of February 45.
WT: Hmmn?
BB: 8th of February 45. Yeah.
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And er when we got back somebody said, ‘Why didn’t you go on?’ And he had a few rings there and I said, ‘Sir look out on the pan. There’s an aircraft out there. It’s got two good engines. One is alright I think. The other one’s rough.’ I said, ‘There’s seven of us here.’
BB: What did the flight engineer think about it? He must have made the judgement on that?
WT: No, he had -
BB: The captain.
WT: He had to shut it down. It was -
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I said, ‘And you’ve got the seven of us are here are ready to go again.’ I said, ‘We didn’t go over and get a VC and lose your aircraft for you.’ Cause that -
BB: What did he say to that?
WT: So he said, ‘Well forget it.’ I said, ‘just as well [stress] sir.’
BB: Station commander?
WT: Hmmn?
BB: Was that the station commander?
WT: Yeah. No. It was the er -
BB: Squadron commander?
WT: No. It was the station commander. He happened to be there, yes.
BB: Yeah. Station master as they used to call them.
WT: They usually had four rings.
BB: Yeah. Group captain. Yes.
WT: There was the AOC there. He was there. He was great ‘cause I was friendly with his WAAF lady.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I used we used very friendly just chatted and all that and had a drink and I was saying good night to her outside his house one night and suddenly he tapped me on the shoulder, he was coming in. He said, ‘Don’t keep her up all night because she’s got to get me breakfast in the morning.’ He said, ‘This isn’t a -
BB: Yeah, but they knew what was going on.
WT: He knew.
BB: They loved their aircrew. Yeah.
WT: He was happy.
BB: Now -
WT: I’ve done a whole lot screed on me.
BB: I’ll look at that later.
WT: Yeah that’s what I wanted to -
BB: One other thing I wanted to mention to you because -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomber Command had a high instance of venereal disease. VD.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And it was, it was a big a big issue because crews were getting sick and having to go to Halton and all these other hospitals and Harris had a view of it that, ‘cause the chief medical officer in Bomber Command went to see him about it, right. Went to see Harris
WT: Ahum.
BB: To, you know, tell him, you know, it’s got to stop and he said, ‘If my old lags want to have a bit of fun let them have it because they could be dead tomorrow. Now get out of my office.’ He said something like that. But I mean did you, were you aware of any of that?
WT: No. No.
BB: Were there any kind of big posters?
WT: No it was -
BB: Or lectures?
WT: No. It was a good squadron as far as that was concerned. No. We had good fun. We had this -
BB: Yeah
WT: We did a lot of that.
BB: Right. But less of the other.
WT: As far as I’m concerned.
BB: Apparently it was a big problem in Bomber Command but probably in certain areas.
WT: We, we were lucky. I was lucky. I think we had a good squadron there.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They really were. I didn’t know all of them or anything.
BB: No. No, of course.
WT: I didn’t get to know them.
BB: No. No. No. You didn’t.
WT: No.
BB: And I suppose there was the usual horror story in the morning when you went in for breakfast and there were blank chairs. Guys didn’t come back.
WT: Yeah but then I mean people weren’t in because I was lucky I was in the mess lower ground floor. All I had to do was come out of my room turn left and right and there was the dining room.
BB: Right.
WT: So I was dead lucky. Well the bar well there was no bar because it was a peacetime mess.
BB: Sure.
WT: I mean we had to go down a little alleyway.
BB: Sure.
WT: And get served in the trap hatch as we called it.
BB: Right.
WT: The [corps?] was very good.
BB: Now inter relationships within the crew between commissioned and non-commissioned crew members? Any, now you flew as a crew and that was it but of course when you landed you went to your separate messes.
WT: Yes well the, Bruce and I were in -
BB: The other mess, officer’s mess.
WT: The other -
BB: Sergeant’s mess.
WT: Five were together in a house.
BB: In a house ok they were billeted in a house.
WT: One of the wartime houses they were in.
BB: Ok. Ok. Right. I’ve heard a lot of stories where they couldn’t mix formally on base so they went to the local pub and the crew got out all together.
WT: Well you couldn’t do it on base.
BB: No. I know.
WT: You couldn’t be walking -
BB: No. I know.
WT: Around chatting.
BB: No but I meant there was the officer’s mess and the sergeants mess.
WT: They couldn’t mix them up. No.
BB: So they went off base to do it. At least that’s what my uncle did.
WT: The only time we, the only time we mixed was the pre-ops meal.
Interview: Yeah.
WT: And usually that was the sergeant’s mess because it was bigger because of their numbers so we could join them there for the meal.
BB: That’s right.
WT: ‘We had our pre-op meal there altogether.
BB: Because you were one of the privileged guys in the Lancasters. PNB pilot/navigator/bombardier. They were the three main crew PNB and they were recruited -
WT: Ahum.
BB: You know as slightly more rigorously selected and recruited more rigorously than let’s say the gunners because you had the, had to have the education to do those jobs.
WT: Oh you did. Yes.
BB: And you had to have the right characteristics.
WT: Yeah.
BB: So -
WT: I had my London General School Certificate.
BB: Well that’s right. That’s right um well that was, that was good. Let’s see, course you came, I mean I’m not, the time you got into the squadron -
WT: Yeah.
BB: It was late ‘43 or early ’44?
WT: Do you know my memory.
BB: Yeah.
WT: It’s the age.
BB: It’s ok.
WT: Alright. My first op was on the 15th of October ‘44.
BB: ’44. So the war was, the war was still there. And -
WT: Oh yes.
BB: Still brutal.
WT: Oh yes.
BB: Bombers were still being lost.
WT: Yes.
BB: Right up to the last day.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: But was there any feeling of it can’t be long now or did you think it was just going to go on and on until it stopped. I mean did you have any sense that we were winning?
WT: No.
BB: And doing all that stuff?
WT: We were, as I said.
BB: D-day had finished of course.
WT: No, no, yeah it didn’t. D day, D-day, D-day was over, yes.
BB: Yes.
WT: When I was at OTU.
BB: Yeah but there was still, you know -
WT: Yes.
BB: Still the fighting.
WT: Oh yes well we were the old line.
BB: Still bombing.
WT: The line went further -
BB: Yes.
WT: And further back.
BB: Yes, that’s right.
WT: But there was still a line.
BB: Oh a lot of day -
WT: There was.
BB: Yeah. And did you go on any daylights? Because there were a lot of daylight raids coming in
WT: We did, we did the odd daylights. We did one, two, three. About three. No four. I think there were four -
BB: Four daylights and at that stage of the war was the Luftwaffe still effective or were they -.
WT: Hang on. The last one we did was in April.
BB: April.
WT: ‘45.
BB: Ok.
WT: That was at Nordhausen. Wherever that was.
BB: Nordhausen ok but the um but the Luftwaffe by that stage was essentially gone. I mean no fuel, and losses had been high.
WT: They were up in the air.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And I spotted and -
BB: Did you ever see any of the new jets? ME262 or -
WT: I was going to say because I spotted some one night when we were out and we couldn’t understand. We thought they were rockets and they seemed to be going straight up and this happened a couple of times. It was more over Holland.
BB: Oh the V2s coming off.
WT: No. It was, it was the -
BB: Oh the exhaust from the -
WT: New jets.
BB: The new jets. Oh ok.
WT: The new jets no the V2s had finished by that time.
BB: You didn’t, you didn’t
WT: But we, I reported it but didn’t know anything.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I just said I didn’t know what they were.
BB: Yeah ok.
WT: So that was up to them. I, I didn’t know what they were.
BB: No.
WT: Until after the war. I found out.
BB: Yes. Yes and the German night fighters were still around, prowling around um did you, did you at that time they had Junkers 88s and Messerschmitt’s 110s with the Schräge Musik. Upward firing guns.
WT: Yeah. That was yeah.
BB: When they started to appear crews would just see this massive explosion in the sky and -
WT: Ahum.
BB: Thought they’d been hit by flak. They hadn’t, they hadn’t realised that they were getting under the -
WT: No.
BB: The belly and er it took a long time for Bomber Command to actually tell the crews -
WT: Yeah.
BB: About it.
WT: We knew about it.
BB: You knew about it but it, it was a very effective night fighter technique and -
WT: We only, we used to see searchlights in the sky.
BB: Yes.
WT: And there was the old master one.
BB: Yes.
WT: The red one.
BB: Yes and that was the radar and if that locked on to you the radar guided one -
WT: That was radar but one of them was coming towards us and I was screaming to Bruce and he said give me an idea of timing and I said, ‘Now,’ and what we did then we went straight through it.
BB: Yeah.
WT: As quick we could and he went like this and he disappeared.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So in other words he’d he’ll find somebody else.
Instructor: Yeah he’d find somebody else and ‘cause once you’d been combed that was it.
WT: We did it twice.
BB: More or less. Did it twice.
WT: That happened twice.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Ahum.
BB: That was it to get out.
WT: We didn’t get fired at.
BB: Well it happened to my uncle once and he actually put the aircraft straight down the path of the searchlight as best he could.
WT: The front gunner.
BB: With the front gunner blazing like mad.
WT: I would that’s right.
BB: And quick get out of the way and that ‘cause they changed that but it was -
WT: No. But we were, we were lucky.
BB: The [line was still] well ok with the advance of the allies but the German night fighter force went on quite effectively until more or less the end were constrained by fuel at the end and losses.
WT: It was.
BB: And losses of course. But what would between the flak and the night fighters and collisions and all that sort of thing what would you say was the main, the main fear? Night fighters?
WT: I don’t think we had fear.
BB: No.
WT: I’m sorry if -
BB: You put it away.
WT: It sounds big headed but -
BB: No, no, no.
WT: I don’t. I don’t think.
BB: No. I’m not I’m not. Yeah.
WT: We knew we had a job to do. If we didn’t do it -
BB: Ok. I’ll put it -
WT: We were in trouble.
BB: I’ll put it I’ll put it another way.
WT: Yeah. Go on.
BB: When you had the intelligence briefing.
WT: Yeah.
BB: At the brief.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Obviously they briefed you on night fighter tactics
WT: Yeah
Instructor: And where the flak concentrations -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Were and your route was planned.
WT: Yeah.
BB: To avoid these things and you had Window ah Window.
WT: Window.
BB: Were you dropping Window at that stage as a regular thing?
WT: All the way. All the way we could.
BB: And you had Boozer giving you the electronic aid that latched on to the night fighter radar.
WT: I didn’t do anything about that.
BB: Ok. That must have been with the wireless op.
WT: Wireless op had that.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Because he had, he had a little book.
BB: Yeah. That’s right because the Germans countered that by finding the frequency and all the -
WT: That’s right.
Instructor: And all the rest of it.
WT: That’s right.
BB: Everything like that. It went back and forth I think on the -
WT: Yeah he had that on his table.
BB: Yes. Ok. Rebecca and Boozer and all this stuff.
WT: Yeah we had [?]
BB: Yeah but window was quite effective, yeah.
WT: We did that religiously.
BB: Yes.
WT: I was glad to get rid of it mind.
BB: Yes.
WT: Get in the blooming way.
BB: Now the, my uncle’s wireless operator, he was the warmest guy on the Lanc. Everybody else was cold but he was the warmest behind his little curtain.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Um so he was either too hot or too cold but usually hot.
WT: I was happy.
BB: You were alright in your -
WT: I was alright.
BB: Your place.
WT: Where I was.
Instructor: Could you, you were usually you were at the front of course.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah and I mean for take-off you weren’t there you were probably back -
WT: For take-off we had an arrangement. When we were on OTU -
BB: Yeah.
WT: They trained the, what do you call it, to take off with Bruce?
BB: Yeah.
WT: What’s the, God -
BB: Flight engineer.
WT: Flight engineer. Sorry, I’ve got amnesia.
BB: It’s alright.
WT: No the flight engineer he trained, he was trained to take off and land so -
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WT: Fine. Instead of me being down in the nose which was a bad place to be -
BB: Yeah, Yeah.
WT: I’d be sitting on the engineer’s seat and there were two red wheels and those were the fuel.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And they said to me if I ever saw a red light come up.
BB: Scream.
WT: Do that.
BB: Turn it off.
WT: No turn them both off.
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: And that’s what I did until he poked me in the back and he said, ‘I’ve finished Bob, now’ and I’d say, ‘Cheers.’ and I’d go back to my office. We did that. I came up to landing the same way.
BB: Right. Now again I’m sorry to go back again to my uncle’s crew because it’s, it’s not him we’re talking about but they were representative. His bomb aimer, every time they were approaching the target, the whole crew would get on you know well the captain would say, ‘Try and make it one run this time will you?’ ‘Cause you know, ‘Sorry I’ve got to go around again boss. You know it was like it was never did so it was -
WT: Never did one more round. We went in every time.
BB: Excellent. Excellent.
WT: ‘cause I think it was a question of where you were.
BB: Yes, I understand. In the bomber stream. Yes.
WT: You know, in the stream. But I never had to once.
BB: Because you know the Germans were great at having dummy markers and flares.
WT: Sure.
BB: And changing the, trying to get a feel for the aiming point and, you know.
WT: And the whole thing when you worked it out the whole cross wind.
BB: Yes. Yes.
WT: You could pick it up
Instructor: Yes,
WT: Ages before you
BB: Right.
WT: And I’d get Bruce to change so that we had a good direction.
BB: Right. Ok.
WT: And he was very good ‘cause he just used the pedals to to do
BB: [the rudder bar] yes that’s right to correct the [yaw] My uncle’s bomb aimer only went around I think twice on one target but it was, it was, it was an important one. Um ‘cause my uncle went to Peenemunde. He did the Peenemunde raid. Well he was lucky. He was in the first wave. The diversion raids had, there were no night fighters because -
WT: No.
BB: They had, they weren’t there.
WT: They were somewhere else.
BB: They were somewhere else.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But the guys in the third wave-
WT: They copped it didn’t they?
BB: They copped it. Yeah. But of course they weren’t told what it was for.
WT: We were very, very lucky. I really think we were.
BB: I think luck had a big part to play whether you survived your tour or not
WT: I think so.
BB: And that yes as well
WT: Yes.
BB: That and a great crew and a competent crew.
WT: Well our navigator was red hot.
BB: Yeah.
WT: ‘cause one day Bruce said to him, ‘Jack, why don’t you let Bill take over?’ And before I could say anything he said, Bill you don’t mind or Bobs they used to call me. ‘Bobs you don’t mind but I’d rather be responsible myself for what’s happening.’ I said, ‘I’d rather you did.’ And he did. And he didn’t want me to help with the Gee. He did it all himself.
BB: No. Yeah. Yeah.
WT: He wanted to do it all himself. No, he did it all himself.
BB: Yeah. My uncle’s navigator too. He had all these aids.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But he liked to do it himself and used Gee as a backup you know and -
WT: You know Jack was a good navigator.
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: In fact I contacted him after the war. He was over in er, on the east, west coast somewhere and I had a couple of words with him, He got taken ill and died just like that within nine months of my knowing him.
BB: Oh dear.
WT: There’s one of our crew left still here. Harry the rear gunner. He’s down in Yorkshire.
BB: Oh right I must get his -
WT: He’s not a hundred percent.
BB: No.
WT: At the moment.
BB: No.
WT: And we have a reunion of 153 but it’s got that about there’s only about two members.
BB: No.
WT: That go. It’s all the associate members.
BB: I know.
WT: But they meet every year down in err oh down the road -
BB: Scampton oh in Yorkshire. No in -
WT: Lincoln.
BB: Lincoln. Scampton, Waddington.
WT: No. In Lincoln itself.
BB: Oh Lincoln. Ok
WT: In a pub, in a, in a hotel
BB: Yes.
WT: And go to BBMF.
BB: Yes.
WT: And BBMF -
BB: Yes
WT: Bring them in.
BB: Yeah it’s great. I’ve been there.
WT: They are very much with us.
BB: I had the very great privilege of flying in the BBMF Lancaster.
WT: Did you?
BB: Yeah I was on duty as a reservist and briefing and debriefing crews. Modern crews.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they said do you want, do you want a flight? And I said yeah. They said, ‘There’s Jacko Jackson over there.’
WT: Ah.
BB: ‘He’s the captain.’ He said, ‘Go and see Jacko.’
WT: Yeah.
BB: And he’ll fix you up and I went across and I said, I was a flying officer at the time and I said, ‘Good morning sir.’ And he said, ‘Yeah. I know about you. You’re coming with me on a one hour flip around in the Lanc.’ We were doing a test, air test of something so
WT: Ahum.
BB: It was wonderful and I told him about my uncle and all that and I went to every position except the rear gunner position.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They wouldn’t let you in there but I went mid upper gunner, I went down the bomb aimer and it was the bomb aimer’s place. It was, it was great but you get a sense of how that main spar going across could be a real hindrance if you had to get out.
WT: I’ve got some photographs I don’t know where they are now of our people in that one going over the main spar.
BB: With all the kit on?
WT: No. Well we didn’t have that. We used to throw that down over the top but there’s one of the ladies, she took over as the squadron scribe, association scribe and I still keep in touch with her and there’s one of her looking over the top and all I could see was her backside so it appeared on the thing
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: Guess who?
BB: Guess who. Because you either went out the main door at the back.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Or you went out the bomb aimers hatch at the top.
WT: Hatch.
BB: Yeah and when that, if that’s in a spin or you know it was difficult but it was difficult getting out of the Lancaster but it was quite difficult when those things -
WT: Sure.
BB: When they caught you.
WT: I say, you know, we were so lucky.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So lucky.
BB: Yeah. So did all your crew that you trained with and flew with survive the war?
WT: Yes we all survived.
BB: All survived.
WT: Together yes we all survived together and after that we were dispersed to various place
BB: Of course. Yes.
WT: I went one way, somebody went, Harry funnily enough he was a sergeant he was sent to India and he was in the post office out there somewhere and they dropped him to corporal.
BB: Yeah. That happened a lot.
WT: Terrible that was. I couldn’t understand that.
BB: Wartime temporary. Now you’re a corporal. Yes.
WT: Yeah.
Instructor: That’s right. Yeah. And err in your own case when the war finished when did you actually leave the air force? Was it ‘46 sometime or -
WT: Yeah. I think, ohI can’t remember offhand.
BB: Well just vaguely?
WT: It’s in my in -
BB: Logbook?
WT: No. It’s in my script somewhere.
BB: Oh ok. Well anyway it was most. Most were let loose by 1947.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Most.
WT: Where did I put my scribe script?
BB: Oh don’t worry about it but where
WT: Oh, here it is in my hand.
BB: What did they have you do in that time?
WT: Oh.
BB: Were you supernumerary somewhere or were you -
WT: No they wanted, wanted us to train as something and I trained as an equipment officer.
BB: Right ok so the whole surplus aircrew thing.
WT: Yes.
BB: Because of the war
WT: Yeah.
Instructor: They said you can go home, you’re a good bloke, you’re commissioned we need you blah blah blah but you got to remuster as something else.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And, and -
WT: And I was told that’s what I was going to be. I did a course for six weeks on equipment. Got sent to RAF Strubby.
BB: Oh I know where -
WT: Which had been -
BB: Strubby is in Lincolnshire.
WT: Coldest place on earth. Was shut down and it was ready to be everything taken out.
BB: Right.
WT: And I had a few bods there to do that and we had trucks coming out
BB: Taking -
WT: Getting rid of stuff and so on.
BB: That’s right
WT: And I had another guy ‘cause I was attached to some maintenance unit over on the coast and they sent a guy to help me Frank Wilkes bless him a brummy and we worked together and we both got our going off together so we, we, we went off down to London to get our -
BB: Right got your demob suit and out you went.
WT: I didn’t want a hat so he put his, he put my hat that I would have on. I took it outside and I gave it to - [laughs]
BB: So, ok. So you were demobbed.
WT: Yeah.
BB: After all of that. Having gone through that having gone through all that with Bomber Command being demobbed, done your trips with all the trials and tribulations and terror of what could have happened. What did you do then?
WT: I went back to my job.
BB: You went back to your job.
WT: It was reserved. I joined the health department of the Cornwall County Council in September ‘39, no August ’39.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I was there then until I joined up but my job was held for me, my, while I was only on my two bob or whatever it was a week my pay was made up.
BB: Right.
WT: But as soon as I got more that stopped and I had to go in and pay the, pay the difference
BB: And obviously you rebuilt your life.
WT: Yeah.
BB: After that and here we are and well done.
WT: My wife, my wife was -
BB: I was going to ask about that.
WT: She was -
BB: Did you meet her in the RAF?
WT: No I met her in, at work.
BB: At work.
WT: I remember it was -
BB: Post war work.
WT: Yeah. The uniform did it.
BB: Ah the uniform did it.
WT: So what I would -
BB: It still had the pull of the air crew.
WT: Well I always went up in my full uniform.
BB: Of course you did.
WT: And it was funny when we had that grand loop.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I went home on leave. I went up to see somebody and I went in see the boss ‘cause I was his favourite. He was the first boy post boy he’d ever appointed ‘cause he was new.
BB: Ah.
WT: Dr Curnow and
BB: Curnow?
WT: Curnow same as Cornwall
BB: Yeah.
WT: Curnow.
BB: Yeah.
WT: C u r n o w.
BB: Yes I had, one of my medical officers was from Cornwall. His name was Curnow.
WT: Yeah. He, he stayed there all the time. For a long, long time and he said to me, when I’d finished I went back, and there was a brr brr and his secretary said that, ‘Yes he is.’ She said, ‘He says go in.’ He said, ‘Sit down. Have you finished?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Hold your hands out.’ He said, ‘You couldn’t do that last time you were here,’ he said, ‘You had the twitch.‘
BB: I was going to come to that
WT: [?] yeah
BB: This chap Musgrave I was telling you about. The guy that did the ninety three trips. He had a permanent twitch. It was sort of –
WT: Ahum.
BB: Like that.
WT: No. No.
BB: But he had a twitch and everybody knew you know he had been
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomber command but he was very, not because he was boasting about it they just knew that he got out. He finished the war with DFC, DFM and God knows else what but he’d been a pre-war guy but he had a twitch and I asked him once where he got it. How it started. And he said he’d had a crash and er he survived. One or two guys didn’t and that affected him.
WT: That was, that was from when it started because he had said he hadn’t noticed it before.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He was a good chief was Doc Curnow.
BB: So
WT: I was his boy.
BB: Yeah. So these things did have a knock on, knock on affect.
WT: Sure.
BB: Now, the, and then you had all that post war thing you know getting a job, getting married, a family and all of that. Most of the Bomber Command people that I have met and indeed other wartime aircrew not just Bomber Command they never, ever talked about it for years and years. Never.
WT: I agree.
BB: And some of them really still are reticent to talk um either it’s too painful for them one way or another.
WT: I don’t know.
BB: Or it’s just that was that was a bit of my life I’ve now put it in a cupboard.
WT: That was me.
BB: And get on with life.
WT: For a long, long time.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Until eventually I joined you know the Aircrew Association and so on
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WT: Especially when I came up here.
BB: Well I mean you guys were young and you’d gone through such a lot.
WT: Ahum.
BB: And it was very hectic and life was for today.
WT: Yes.
BB: Tomorrow you didn’t know if it was going to happen.
WT: I was, I was getting, I was married.
BB: Yeah. You had responsibilities.
WT: And we had our -
BB: And other things took priority over all of that.
WT: Yes, there were.
BB: And then of course there was this post war denial about Bomber Command.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And what they did and all the rest of it. How did that make you feel? Did it make you feel angry? Did it make you feel what the hell did we do it all for?
WT: I could have killed Churchill. Easily. You know, without any argument.
BB: Because of what he did.
WT: Because of Bomber Harris.
BB: I mean they called him Butch.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because you know but he he loved his crews and -
WT: He was, he came to Scampton once and he was great.
BB: And they loved him
WT: Yeah.
BB: Despite you know sending them off every night knowing that x number of Lancaster’s wouldn’t come back or Halifaxes or whatever. But that’s how he got his name Butch, Butcher.
WT: Yes.
BB: Butcher Harris but they seemed to get on with him.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They seemed to like, you know, his manner.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And his we’re going to do this, we’re going to do that.
WT: The one person on the squadron the squadron we didn’t like was the four ringer.
BB: The group captain.
WT: The group. He was not a nice fellow at all. We didn’t like him a bit and he used to come in to get his fags so we’d push him to the top of the queue so he could get the hell out.
BB: Did he ever fly? Did he ever go off?
WT: Yes he did a few.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He did one or two.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And he was, fortunately not with us but the AOC was there. He was -
BB: Was that Cochrane? Or Saunby?
WT: I don’t know what he was called.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He was a lovely fellow.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He had his own little [?]
BB: Yeah.
WT: In fact his WAAF
BB: Driver.
WT: No.
BB: His PA.
WT: No. Looked after him.
BB: Oh right.
WT: Looked after him. I got courting with her a bit.
BB: Ahh.
WT: Nothing like, nothing
BB: Nothing like going for the top.
WT: Untoward and one night we were saying goodnight and suddenly there was this tap on my shoulder, ‘Hurry up, don’t keep her up all night. She’s got to get my breakfast in the morning.’
BB: The morning. You said, ‘Yes sir.’
WT: Now who would have said that?
BB: They knew and, they knew and they let the guys get on with it.
WT: I saw her afterwards.
BB: In that respect.
WT: And she said that he laughed his head off.
BB: Oh that’s great. That’s great.
WT: They were a good lot.
BB: And now you’ve got your grandchildren, great grandchildren.
WT: Great grandchildren.
BB: And you’re going to be giving them your logbook and one thing and another.
WT: Paul my grandson. I’ve got a grandson and a granddaughter. Paul is supposed to inherit all my stuff.
BB: Yes.
WT: Which he will do.
BB: Yes. Good.
WT: But in the meantime.
BB: I hope you’ve written that down in a will or something?
WT: I don’t. My son knows.
BB: Ok.
WT: He knows. He’s as good as gold but Paul sorry my oldest grandson, great grandson Jack is very keen on Lancasters ‘cause they live in Lancaster.
BB: Yes of course.
WT: And he knows all about that so Jack has got lots of stuff to do with Lancasters and I said I’ve got all these books I don’t know whether I ought to be getting rid of them sometime. Pete said to me, that’s my son, the other day, ‘Dad don’t do anything until August. Jack’s coming up. He’s mad on the Lancaster’s and things, he’s got stuff all over the place so, in his room.’ so there’s four Lancaster – one, two, three, four, five books.
BB: Yeah.
WT: But you know
BB: Garbett and Goulding books.
WT: Yeah I met him and one other there and he’ll have those whatever happens. What, what about the others in the bottom lot I don’t know ‘cause the top one is all Cornwall but they’re spoken for one way or another.
BB: I have four hundred such books and I do a lot of research and I write occasionally in Flypast and other magazines um and they’re just for my own research. I mean, for example you said you were 153 I went to the books oh yes but now coming back to the controversial issue of medals.
WT: Sorry.
BB: Did you have to apply for your medals or did they come through the post eventually to you?
WT: I had to apply for them.
BB: You had to apply for them. And when did you apply for them
WT: Lord knows. I can’t remember.
BB: Yeah because they ok they had a lot to get through.
WT: No. That’s not true. I, I when I was an equipment officer before while I was still under training a bit with another thing.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I was asked to go up the headquarters somewhere and I took the logbook with me and I went through about my medals then and then I said, ‘Yes but I want the Air Crew Europe.’ ‘Well you can’t have it.’ ‘Well I said I don’t want any more.’ I went to go out and they pushed me back in again and they insisted that I had to have these four.
BB: Right, so now the, I had a very, my father knew another very nice man and his name was Slim Summerville. He had been a pre-war regular but he was a wireless operator I gather on Whitleys the one’s that flew like that -
WT: Ahum.
BB: And he hated them. But then he was shot down in November 1940 in France he made a crash landing. All the crew got out, sorry Holland, all the crew got out still fly, they flew in their number ones. Odd. But anyway they were all sitting around, standing around this aircraft trying to get it to burn and they couldn’t burn it. The Germans came. November ‘40 Battle of Britain had just finished. There they were. This Luftwaffe feldwebel came to them and said, ‘look we’ve got nowhere to put you but this Dutch, this Dutch farmer will look after you, we’ll put one of our guards there promise you won’t try and escape.’ ‘We can’t do that,’ they said but, ‘Never mind you go there.’ A month they were in this farmhouse having a life, they thought this is alright. This is ok. And then things got, they were then they were sent back in to Germany and they were sent towards the east. They were part of the great march but and he finished the war all the rest of it. When he was ill he came, I went to see him and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘Bruce I never claimed my medals because I didn’t think I’d have very many being a POW but I’d like to pass them on to my grandchild.’ So I said, ‘Well ok.’ He said, ‘I can’t give you my logbook because it was when I was taken prisoner it was all lost and whatever.’ So I had to go to the National Archive in Kew and reconstruct his logbook and I took all this stuff and I said right your entitled to the Aircrew Europe, you’ve done, you’ve done all these missions between the qualifying dates of the -
WT: Yes sure.
BB: Award. Why, they said he wasn’t entitled to it. That he was only going to get the ‘39 to ‘45 star, the defence medal and a war medal. That’s all he was going to get.
WT: Oooh there’s one -
BB: Because he was -
WT: There’s one missing there really.
BB: So -
WT: France and Germany.
BB: Yeah but he was a POW. He wasn’t there.
WT: But did he -
BB: So -
WT: But he’d been doing work.
BB: Yeah but he was captured in 1940. So anyway so I went back and I said no you did x number of missions on the Whitleys you’re entitled to the Air Crew Europe so he said, ‘Well you write. I’ll give you permission and you write.’ So I wrote back to them first to air historical branch then to RAF records and they sent, they said, ‘Yes you’re right.’ So they reissued it. But with, but with the Air Crew Europe and I had them mounted for him and I took them to the hospital to see him in hospital and I pinned them to his pillow and he died three hours later. But he was so happy -
WT: Lovely.
BB: To have got them.
WT: Of course he was.
BB: Yeah. And he said -
WT: I’ve got mine here somewhere.
BB: All the rest was rubbish but Air Crew Europe’s the one so I am going to take your fight up.
WT: No.
BB: If I can do it for him, I can do it for you.
WT: Oh, there’s no point.
BB: Yes there is.
WT: I shouldn’t bother.
BB: Your grandchildren need it. I understand how you feel but if you’re entitled to it why don’t you take it?
WT: I’ve got them somewhere. I thought I had them there.
BB: Let’s have a look. Oh there they are. Right.
WT: They’re a replacement ‘cause I lost mine.
BB: Did you?
WT: And I lost the -
BB: What happened?
WT: Hmmn?
BB: What happened?
WT: I don’t know it was -
BB: They were all issued unnamed.
WT: It was in a move.
BB: They were all issued unnamed.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Now you see if I get you the Air Crew Europe. Right. Just say, let’s just say no this annoys me with the the whole medal thing you did all of that. Now I know you’re very proud and, and, and you don’t particularly want it but you earned it and this parsimonious government took their bloody time in giving you the Bomber Command clasp which I, did you ever claim it?
WT: No.
BB: Right.
WT: Yes I got that.
BB: Right.
WT: Yes.
BB: You need to sew that on.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Now, if I get you the Air Crew Europe if by chance we’re successful they’ll probably give you the Air Crew Europe with the France and Germany clasp.
WT: Ahum.
BB: ‘cause you couldn’t have both.
WT: Ahum.
BB: So you have to give that one back.
WT: I think the other one’s still there ‘cause I always said I can’t sew so
BB: So what I’m saying is they’ll probably take that one probably ask you to return that one.
WT: I’m not fussed about it you know.
BB: I’m just going through the procedure.
WT: I know.
BB: And um they that’s what they would do. Um but it is such a prestigious, it was only it was the only thing of the stars that I’ve talked to with the guys before that meant anything was the Air Crew, Air Crew Europe whether your coastal, bomber or whatever -
WT: Yes. Exactly.
BB: It was. Because they didn’t get a medal. That was only medal they actually got that was you know air force.
WT: I got mine. Those are replacements.
BB: Yes.
WT: Because -
BB: Exactly I’ll take a photo of those later.
WT: In transferring -
BB: Well -
WT: Something got lost and we never found them. I didn’t, I didn’t -
BB: Let me put it this way let me see what I can do and if I can do it you’ll take it. Right? You’ll take it if I can get it for you.
WT: Alright.
BB: Fine. Good.
WT: You’ve won.
BB: I feel very strongly about that ’cause you know medals are very emotive things even today.
WT: I won’t argue with you.
BB: No. Good. Ok well I’m going to stop the interview now. I think we’ve covered all the ground. Is there anything else you’d like to say that I may have forgotten?
WT: No.
BB: To ask?
WT: [If you]
BB: Are these your target pictures?
WT: Target pictures.
BB: Yeah.
WT: We were allowed to have those as the crew, the crew -
BB: Now -
WT: Took some as well.
BB: The other thing that used to get people a bit jumpy, ‘Have you got the flash skip? I’ve got to go around again.’ And, ‘Oh go on then.’
WT: No.
BB: Because a lot of crews were really ‘cause that was flying straight and level for a bit of a time to get that flash picture and if you missed it the first time you had to go back and at debriefing as you know once they processed the film -
WT: [?] that’s right.
BB: You were kind of ticked in the box that it was ok.
WT: The problem was the bottom of those it was -
BB: Yeah.
WT: A job to read
BB: Yeah.
WT: Very difficult to read
BB: It is.
WT: All the stuff.
BB: It is but -
WT: But the one there the first one Fort [Frederick Heindricks].
BB: Yeah.
WT: That was an aiming point.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I was told.
BB: Right.
WT: You could see the smoke coming away.
BB: How, we hear a lot about the pathfinders and the marking and all these different marking techniques. Were they, were they good? I mean were they -
WT: They were good as far as we were concerned. We would come up and every now and again they would say please you know bomb on so and so -
BB: Yeah they had the master bomber saying forget that that’s a spoof yeah go to -
WT: That’s right.
BB: Bomb on the greens.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomb on the greens. That kind of thing.
WT: Yeah. We had that.
BB: Yeah and because so -
WT: And that, that’s they’re all the same
BB: Oh ground zero.
WT: That’s, no that that’s Dresden.
BB: That’s what I’m saying ground zero at Dresden
WT: I wouldn’t know. With, you can see the modern building.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And the one that’s been destroyed.
BB: Yes.
WT: A friend of mine he lives here in Morpeth and they went over to Dresden and he came back he said, ‘Bill I thought I’d take a photograph. This is what you did you B.’
BB: Well yeah tough it was a legitimate target.
WT: Oh yeah as far as I was concerned it was.
BB: Thank you very much. They’re very interesting.
WT: Yes, I, those are, you know, to me, the crew had some you know.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So -
BB: My uncle had some and they used to put them in their logbook.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because the pilot’s logbooks were different as you know.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They were slightly bigger.
WT: Yeah well they were. That’s why mine is a bit of a mess and just written on. You know, scrolled
BB: I’ll have a look at that later. So I’m going to stop the interview now. Are you happy with that?
WT: Yes you -
BB: Ok.
WT: I don’t know if you saw those. That’s my doings. That’s, that’s how I got to know you.
BB: That’s all the stuff.
WT: And that was the newsletter. Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And that’s, yeah, that’s ok.
BB: And there’s your medals back.
WT: Oh there’s, ok.
BB: Give those back to you there.
Yeah oh don’t worry about that. Oh yes that’s the Bomber Command clasp in there.
BB: Oh yes well let’s have a look, you’ve got to sew that on haven’t you?
WT: Well yes I said my daughter and grand daughter.
BB: Well why don’t you. Is it still in it’s envelope? Let me just take a picture of that ‘cause that’s you. That’s-
WT: You can undo that clip better than I can.
BB: That’s very nice.
WT: That’s what it should be.
BB: About bloody time too.
WT: I think -
BB: I was -
WT: I, I hated the thing actually it should have been a blooming thing like the other people had.
BB: Yeah. I was I was privileged in being selected to be an usher at the Bomber Command memorial opening in London.
WT: Lovely.
BB: And I was in my squadron leader stuff and all my own medals on and it was great and I was given, I was given six, three Australian, three New Zealand, three Australian and three New Zealand air crew to look after. To host.
WT: [?]
BB: Yeah and they were all of your vintage, your age, you know, now.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they’d come all the way from Australia and New Zealand for free business class with [doorbell] New Zealand sorry
WT: That could be your wife.
BB: Could be my wife.
WT: Oh she’ll be, open the door.
BB: Oh I can get that for you sorry.
WT: No that’s alright. It could be somebody else. Hello.
Other: Hello.
WT: I’ve got someone with me. We thought it was his wife.
Other: Oh a parcel for me.
WT: Oh yes darling.
Other: That’s why I came. That’s very kind of you, Bill.
WT: That’s alright.
Other: Thank you very much indeed.
WT: I’ll keep the sixpence you’ll, I’ll send you the bill.
Other: Sixpence and you’ll send me the bill.
WT: We do things for one another.
BB: Yeah of course you do.
WT: Only around the corner. She’s a dear.
BB: Well done for that.
WT: When I came home last time from hospital I weren’t all that brilliant and she was doing shopping, she was insisting on doing my laundry and all that and I said -
BB: So -
WT: So I took a parcel in for her today.
BB: Right so -
WT: Where’s that going in there wasn’t it
BB: It’s with your medals yeah. Yeah yeah. So I’m with these guys and we’re all sitting them all down and I was getting and it was a pretty hot day and one of the Australians said ‘cause my name’s Bruce you see.
WT: Yeah.
BB: ‘Here, Brucie go and get us a beer mate.’ So I went and got them the beer and they ate this up and, ‘Here, I’m pretty hungry mate. Got any sandwiches?’ And we were going away and they said, ‘Look mate it’s getting hot here when’s this thing going to you know finish?’ I said, ‘Well, you know, the royals are going to be there. The Queen’s going to open it and so on and Prince Charles and Camilla will come and see you.’ ‘Right. Right. Ok.’ So this went on and the RAF BBMF Lancaster flew down and dropped these poppies but it got it wrong got it, slightly, slightly off track and all the poppies ended up in Piccadilly all over the place and -
WT: That’s one of them,
BB: Yes. Yes I know. I recognised that,
WT: Yeah.
BB: And this Australian looked up and he said, ‘Oh Christ the navig, the navs all wrong you know’ and, you know, ‘I suppose you can’t get the people these days’ and all that sort of talk, you know. Anyway I sent one of my little one of my helpers, one of my guys in our squadron, a corporal. I said, ‘Go and pick up as many of those as you can get.’
WT: Sure.
BB: And he met a policemen, this guy, with his helmet -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Just doing this you see and the policeman kept some in his pocket and he gave the rest to this guy so he gave each one of these guys one of the poppies and that was great but this Australian who was really quite vocal, nice bloke but he had with him a group captain Royal Australian Air Force from the embassy must have been the air attaché standing maybe just about there and you’re the guy right and he said, ‘Brucie, look when the royals come down can I ask when I’m going to get my’ dot dot ‘medal because I’m getting old and I’m going to fall of my perch mate and I’d rather like it.’ And I said, ‘Well you could but I don’t think it would be, you know, polite.’ He said, ‘[Dot dot] polite mate I’ve been waiting a long time.’ And then the group captain came across and said, ‘Look I’ve told you about that. That’s my job. Leave that to me.’ You know. Blah. ‘Well you’d better hurry up mate.’ And that was the end of that conversation and of course you get your, get the clasp.
WT: Oh dear.
BB: But it all went it all went it all went very well and every time I’m in London and I’ll be there next week I always get one of those British Legion wooden little wooden crosses.
WT: Yes.
BB: With the poppy on.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And I take my uncle’s crew and -
WT: Put their names down
BB: Just the one name. So my uncle first, then the bomb aimer, then and I put them all down and I look at the little little book they’ve got there.
WT: Yeah
BB: And its people write things down.
WT: Yeah
BB: And there’s obviously flowers. There’s things that gets me is this little one flower and an old plastic see through bag or
WT: Yeah.
BB: Something. With, ‘To Uncle George’ killed blah blah blah blah and you think gosh, you know and it’s such a focus that place for everybody to come and do stuff.
WT: Standing there with tears streaming down my eyes that day
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
WT: I couldn’t even -
BB: And I said to the Ben Fund people
WT: I shouted once, ‘Excuse me I’ve got to go to the toilet. Don’t do anything.’ [laughs]
BB: And I said to the Ben Fund guys who run it you know I hope someone collects all this stuff and takes it away.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because -
WT: Sure.
BB: You should do a book after five years or something with all the, ‘cause they leave copies of pictures.
WT: Sure.
BB: And crew pictures and -
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know, it’s a great archive there just on its own.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: One of their associate members who’s a bit of a B really but he rang up and said Bill I’ve got a poppy that came falling down. Did you want one? And he sent it up to me.
BB: Oh excellent.
WT: So that’s why I popped it on there.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And it keeps falling down but it fell behind one day so I put it there -
BB: I think -
WT: So it doesn’t go anywhere else.
BB: I think –
And by the way that -
BB: Yes.
WT: Is as good a representation of a lot of us coming off -
BB: Ops.
WT: Off ops yes.
BB: I’ll take a picture of that.
WT: The actual depth of that thing.
BB: Yeah. I’ll take a picture of that but -
WT: It’s terrific.
BB: I think I have at home a programme from that day. I’ll send it to you. From the Bomber memorial.
WT: I was here then.
BB: Yes I know but I’ve got -
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know I think I’ve got a number of spares. I will send it to you.
WT: But I would love to have been there.
BB: Well it was such a privilege.
WT: Two or three of our members were there.
BB: Yeah it was a privilege to be there and, and
WT: ‘cause we had a, I started a help doing it with Johnny [Johns?] on, who by the way has written a lovely book on our stuff. Did I have that out? No I didn’t
BB: That’s ok well I’ve got a feeling -
WT: That is
BB: Ok.
WT: That’s on.
BB: 153.
WT: That is done. Is on the internet somewhere or something.
BB: Is it?
Yeah.
BB: I’ll try and find it when I go back.
WT: Johnny’s done it. He’s got -
BB: When was that written? Let’s have a look
WT: Just inside is by the date its a few years ago. I don’t know if
BB: Oh here we are. April 1998.
WT: Yeah Johnny was one of the pilots that came just after when the war was more or less finished. He started just when we were just finishing the war but he became the chairman of our Association.
BB: Yes. How lovely.
WT: It’s a terrific book because it’s got -
BB: It’s a lovely book.
WT: You know you can see when everybody did everything.
BB: Yeah it was a lovely book. And it’s, it’s -
BB: It’s terrific.
BB: I have one similar for 9 squadron but not in so much detail.
WT: That, that has got every op was done and who was on it and everything else.
BB: Yes.
WT: And about all these tables.
BB: Has anybody got all these for the national -
WT: And the aircraft.
BB: We would have got these for the national archive.
WT: Oh no. No he -
BB: Logbooks.
WT: He was down there. He used to go down and, and -
BB: Yes at the archive.
WT: Yeah, he’d go down there.
BB: Oh I was down. It’s a great place to be it really is.
WT: He lived down in York way.
BB: Yeah.
WT: No he didn’t Salisbury sorry it was Salisbury ‘cause his daughter, one of his daughter is still there.
BB: Yes, That’s lovely.
WT: He used to come regularly to our dos.
BB: And you were on C flight yeah.
WT: Hmmn?
BB: C flight.
WT: No A.
BB: A flight. Ok.
WT: I was A flight. Yeah.
BB: A flight. Ok.
WT: Yeah there was -
BB: Sorry.
WT: You will see our crew there somewhere.
BB: Yes. I’m just looking for it here.
WT: Bruce Potter at the top.
BB: Potter’s crew eh.
WT: Did you not see it?
BB: Yeah hold on.
WT: He was on A flight.
BB: Potter.
WT: Almost where you had your thumb there.
BB: Potter.
WT: Is it over that side somewhere?
BB: Oh here he is. Potter. There we are.
WT: Yeah.
BB: I’ll take a note of that.
WT: His name was Bruce.
10859
BB: Well he’s got an Australian name mate.
WT: Certainly has, yes mate.
BB: Except mine’s more Scottish than Australian. In fact one of my objectives for this when I was down here my uncle who was the Australian he married my mother’s sister ‘cause I was born in Gainsborough which is Bomber Command Hemswell not too far from Hemswell.
WT: Yes, Hemswell. Yeah.
BB: And my brother was born in Newark and my, this Australian pilot was courting my mother’s sister while he was on ops but he wouldn’t marry her while he was on ops ‘cause he didn’t feel, he’d had so many young ladies coming to the mess after their husband’s had died and he wouldn’t do it. He said he would marry her when he’d finished ops but he was killed instructing and they were only married four months but my cousin was born you know shortly thereafter well you know nine months later basically and so he, he was born in the place where I was brought up by my grandmother at Coldstream in Berwickshire and the family claimed, the family claimed the body.
WT: Oh yeah.
BB: And he was brought up by train to Cornhill station and lay overnight in the family house and my grandfather had, was a commander of the local home guard having been an old soldier and he wanted to open the coffin ‘cause it lay in the front room with a flag on it and my mother was a nurse and my mother said I don’t think we should do that ‘cause he was burnt. She knew he had been burnt and so they didn’t do it. They said let’s just remember him.
WT: As we thought he was.
BB: As we was and when the guys came up from, from the RAF station he was at for the funeral his widow, my aunt, said I’d like his watch or his flying jacket please. Sorry all we’ve got is this this and which you’ll get from the committee of adjustment and they’ll send to you and all the rest but so when you go to this little Scottish cemetery you’ll see this Australian AF war grave.
WT: Right.
BB: That’s him.
WT: That’s him. Well I never.
BB: But he was only twenty one and the last time his mother saw him was when he was seventeen and a half to leave, leave Australia to come home come here.
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know.
WT: Yeah.
BB: It was just one of those awful things.
WT: What are you trying to do there?
BB: He had finished his, he had finished his, his ops and was screened and funny you know the crew all got together you know.
WT: Ah huh.
BB: And they said, ‘We’ll go on pathfinders. We’re safer on pathfinders than we are instructing.’ And that was the view and he said, ‘No, I can’t. I’ve got to, I want to get married and I’m not going to that.’ but if he had done that he probably would have been alright.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Exactly.
BB: There we go. It wasn’t to be I suppose. These things are always -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Sad.
WT: Sent to, sent to try us.
BB: They are. Well Bill thanks very much.
WT: That’s alright my friend.
BB: And I’ll be back I’m sure if I’m down this way again. It’s so lovely to talk to you.
WT: Yeah.
BB: There’s all your bits.
WT: Yeah. You’ve got, you’ve got the medals.
BB: I’ve got that picture you leant me and I’ll send that back when I get home tonight and I’ve got -
WT: You didn’t, you didn’t take the medals.
BB: No. No.
WT: No.
BB: No you’ve got them. Better check I don’t want you to, there they are in the bag
WT: That’s alright, they’re in the bag.
BB: They are in your just check please just check. No, no, no I haven’t got them. There they are
WT: I don’t know why, yeah they’re there such as they are.
BB: Well we’ll try and change that.
WT: I’m never bothered about medals.
BB: No. Well a lot of people don’t but the gran
WT: I’m not a medal man.
BB: No. A lot of people weren’t but you know there’s things like grandchildren who, who -
WT: Well. Paul -
BB: You’ve got, you’ve got your grandchildren now.
WT: My grandson.
BB: Who you would obviously like.
WT: They’re down in Salisbury at the moment I’m hoping they’re going to move a bit nearer but he’s interested but his nephew bless him is he’s only seven and a half at the moment.
BB: Yeah.
WT: But there’s a photograph of him up there. Jack. He’s very, very keen on it. Very keen.
BB: Well so he should be. It’s a great honour that you’ve done this.
WT: There’s the office.
BB: There’s the office, that’s right.
WT: These were, these were taken from the just, what is she called the one over, Just Jane over there in, we used to go down there a lot to the Panton Brothers where they’ve got the aircraft that taxies around.
BB: Yeah. Ok what have I got to do here now?
WT: [yawn] excuse me. This is all to do with the Lincolnshire arrangement that going, the spire’s gone up hasn’t it?
BB: Not yet. No, no, no, not -
WT: Oh I thought they’d already lifted it because our lot were down on oh a month and a half ago to their, to the reunion and that was the day when it was going to be delivered. They moved, had to move away because time was going on they’d only just got down the road and they saw it going back up.
BB: Right.
WT: Just coming. So they couldn’t do anything about it.
BB: No.
WT: I thought they said they put it up that night. Erected it.
BB: What? The spire?
WT: Yeah.
BB: In Lincoln?
WT: Yeah.
BB: Well to tell you the truth it might have done but I haven’t heard of it yet but -
WT: Well I thought that’s what they it had happened. They brought that in and the lorries or whatever was carrying it were going to get it upright for them to to anchor it down or whatever. I don’t know. Because they are going to build a great big wall around it aren’t t they with the name of the people who died
BB: Yes
WT: Or were killed. So [they’ll have old Giffords?] down on that one bless him. My room-mate.
BB: Oh God. There’s more bumph here.
WT: Cost you more money now.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Right so we’d better get on with the paperwork. Let me just have a look at it
WT: Oh I thought you’d done it.
BB: No I’ve just been reading it here so we’ll better get on with it. Won’t be a minute. I think I’ll just call my wife up I’m a bit worried about her. See where she is
WT: I was going to say from my bedroom you can probably see the car.
BB: So when’s your next medical people coming in. When, when do they come in, every day to see you?
WT: No. No. No Wednesday is the day when everything normally happens.
BB: Yeah.
WT: At the moment I’ve got ear trouble but I’m off for another week but on Wednesday they come in to change your leg bag and do all kinds of things so I have to watch it but I’m alright I’m off for the next week or two I’m not doing too badly.
BB: Hi Jeannie. It’s me. I’m finished with Bill. I wonder if you could come back to to look at this documentation. It might need a witness. I’m not sure. Ok I’ll call you later. Or you can give me a call now. Thanks bye.
WT: Oh you’ve left her a message have you?
BB: Yeah she’s -
WT: Oh.
BB: She’s probably walking the dog.
WT: Stay where you are I think I can see the car from here.
BB: Ok thanks.
From the bedroom.
[pause]
WT: No the trees are in the way. I said the tree is in the way.
BB: Oh its William [Headley] Thomas isn’t it?
WT: [Headley].
BB: Oh that’s worth, that’s worthy of a photograph.
WT: Oh I don’t know I was just going to show you that. They were taken more or less the same time. You see what she’s wearing?
BB: Yes.
WT: A new pair of wings.
BB: Oh that’s lovely. May I take a picture of that one?
WT: Oh, go on. You don’t want that man.
BB: Yes I do. You’re, now that, now that you’ve been interviewed my dear boy you are now part of the national archive.
WT: Don’t.
BB: You are going to be in the Bomber Command archive.
WT: Am I?
BB: Yeah, you are.
WT: I thought, I thought it was the Lincolnshire.
BB: Yeah but it’s going to the University of Lincoln.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But that’s why we’ve got to sign this other stuff.
WT: While you’re doing that it’s happened again this damned bag.
BB: Oh I’m sorry.
WT: No it’s alright ‘cause it just happens like that I have a big bag to put on the end of it at night thank God.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Bill had joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps and Air Training Corps. He volunteered as a pilot in the Royal Air Force and flew Tiger Moths at RAF Sywell but was re-mustered as a navigator. Bill went to Canada as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme, where he did bomb aiming, gunnery and navigation training. He was offered a commission and did some special training on Prince Edward Island before going to the holding unit at Moncton.
Bill returned to Scotland and converted to bomb aiming. He crewed up at RAF Castle Donington and went to RAF Sandtoft and RAF Hemswell to the Lancaster Finishing School. Bill was transferred to 166 Squadron at RAF Kirmington, flying Lancasters. They then went to RAF Scampton as 153 Squadron. Bill conducted 29 operations and one which was aborted because of engine problems. Bill then trained as an equipment officer, being sent to RAF Strubby. He then demobilised and returned to his job in local government.
The interview discusses relationships between commissioned and non-commissioned crew, Bill’s thoughts on Dresden, Bomber Command and Arthur Harris, and the awarding of medals.
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AThomasWH150711
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Canada
Alberta
Ontario
Ontario--Toronto
Prince Edward Island
Québec
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Harrogate
England--Hastings
England--Lancashire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Manchester
England--Northamptonshire
England--Redruth
England--Sussex
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Wigtown
Wales--Aberystwyth
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
New York (State)
New York (State)--New York
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-11
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:19:53 audio recording
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
observer
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Bicester
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirmington
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Scampton
RAF Strubby
RAF Sywell
target photograph
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/838/10830/AGoslingC180907.2.mp3
639de03fe257ad2fae5048ea550420f1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gosling, Cyril
C Gosling
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Corporal Cyril Gosling (1923 - 2019, 1512679 Royal Air Force). He served as an armourer with 49 and 617 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Gosling, C
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: So, this is Susanne Pescott. I’m interviewing Corporal Cyril Gosling today at his home in Oldham. I’m interviewing today for International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive and we’re at Cyril’s home. It’s the 7th of September 2018. Also present at the interview is Cyril’s daughter Gillian. So, first of all Cyril thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today.
CG: You’re welcome.
SP: So, do you want to tell me a little bit about life before the RAF? When were you born Cyril?
CG: The address?
SP: So, what date were you born?
CG: 1923.
SP: 1923.
CG: First of the seventh 1923.
SP: Brilliant. And where did you live then?
CG: Golden street. 47 Golden Street, Oldham.
SP: Oldham. Yeah. Yeah. And what was life like in the early years for you?
CG: A bit, a bit rough. I wanted to go into engineering but mother said, ‘Ooh it’s too it’s not for you that. I’m going to get you in a shop.’ A grocer’s shop who lived next door to me. Literally, you know. So, I finished up early on in this shop. The grocer’s shop. And that were alright, you know running around with a bicycle like I was doing. And then what happened to it? Now [pause] I finished up getting fed up with it. Complaining to mother. And this lady came into the shop. I were cleaning the, you know, all the equipment in the shop and this lady dashed in and said, ‘Can you give me a half a pound of bacon, I’m in a hurry.’ I said, ‘I’ve just stripped it down. The machine.’ And I said, ‘Well, because it’s you I’ll do it.’ But so, without a to do, without putting the machine together again I ploughed on. [stress] ‘Oh. I’m sorry I’ve just cut my finger [laughs]
SP: So, you cut your off finger on the machine.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: On the bacon machine.
GC: You were only fourteen, weren’t you?
CG: So, I finished up at hospital. We didn’t have a car in those days. I went on the bus to the Oldham hospital and I were getting off half way there and mum said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘Well, to the pictures. I always go to the pictures Tuesday afternoon. Because the shop’s closed.’
GC: On the way back.
CG: On the way back.
GC: From the hospital.
CG: Anyway, I sat through my normal journey, you know. When I come back she played heck with me and I got back home. I got through, sat through these films which I liked and she said, ‘You’d better go and see Mr Livingstone.’ That was the manager of the Oldham shop. ‘Why?’ ‘He’s in bed poorly.’ ‘Why, what am I supposed to do?’ And she played hell with me then. She said, ‘You go gadding out, go to the pictures and there’s poor Mr Livingstone in bed poorly.’
GC: With shock [laughs]
SP: Yeah. And that Mr Livingstone was the, ran the grocers’, the manager of the grocers.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Yeah.
CG: And that’s it. So, I had to go around one or two people who heard about it got a shock, friends like. So anyway, I said, ‘I’ve had enough of this.’ War was just starting.
SP: Ok. Yeah.
CG: I said I want to join up.
GC: At the Local Defence Volunteers. Talk about the Local Defence Volunteers. Dad’s Army.
CG: Oh, that were it. Sorry. Yeah. I jumped in. Dad’s, you know, Dad’s Army. So, without any further ado I went to the local part of it asking for volunteers and I signed up there and then. And I said I worked for a store in Oldham. I volunteered. Anyway, I signed up and it was just like, like it is on television then [laughs] yeah.
SP: What sort of things did you do in the Defence League?
CG: It were just like it said on television.
GC: Dad tell them about when you thought a paratrooper had dropped down when you were on guard duty.
CG: Oh that.
SP: So, they thought, yeah, so in Oldham they thought there was a paratrooper arrived, did they?
CG: Yeah. And we were, we were based at [unclear] Barracks which is in Oldham.
GC: [Up the big hill?]
CG: Yeah. A group of [unclear] on there. And there were one bloke which always amuses me when it comes on. He would start by, like it was on, and he used to anything like this. He would say, ‘Don’t flap. Don’t flap,’ you know. And he was. Anyway, when I come through, he calls me, official, you know. So we’re up at the top there. And this bloke was always shouting, ‘Don’t panic. We’ll sort it out.’ Anyway, we went off. Four of us there. Four of us looking for this parachutist. And he called to me and —
GC: Denshaw.
CG: Denshaw over that way. Anyway, it seems daft now but we had search parties out. All looking for him. We never found him.
SP: They never knew what it was then?
CG: Not really.
SP: No. So, after the Defence League in Oldham you then decided to join up did you say?
CG: Yeah. Joined up.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what, what made you decide on the RAF?
CG: It’s funny. I don’t know.
GC: They said that he’d got flat feet. The army.
CG: I, I don’t know. Passed me.
GC: Didn’t they tell you you had flat feet?
CG: Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Flat feet. So, they suggested the RAF.
CG: I fancied it.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But they turned me at down first.
SP: Right.
CG: Because I had flat feet.
SP: Right.
CG: Anyway, after struggling they accepted me. So, we went to Padgate which is, do you know it? [Crowmarsh?] Blackpool of course. Roughed it.
SP: So, what was life like in black, what was it like in Blackpool during your training?
CG: Well, all I can say, there were hundreds of young ladies chasing our uniform [laughs]. So, and then from there we went to Filey. You know it?
SP: Yes. Over to the east coast.
CG: Yes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
GC: His fitter’s course.
CG: Did our square bashing and what have you.
GC: Kirkham. You went to Kirkham to do your fitter’s course.
CG: Oh yeah. Sorry.
GC: Tell her about when you had to take your turn of doing guard duty. When you were patrolling around in that blizzard and you were all wrapped up.
CG: This is one of many things. This camp is, you know, for fitters. Teaching fitters. Anyway, it was winter and I were on guard duty in the camp. It was snowing and I marched up and down because it was, I were cold. Suddenly Filey disappeared. I didn’t realise. There was so much straw and I sunk into a big hole in the ground.
SP: Right.
CG: Fortunately, the corporal who was bringing a chap to replace me and I had all the equipment on me. Rifle, everything, you know. So, I was shouting out and he was shouting, ‘Where are you?’ I said, ‘In the water.’ And they dragged me out and it was so freezing out there. The corporal, he had a phone. I don’t know where that come from but he got, got me out, you know and leads to the M O station and they said, ‘You’re lucky. If he hadn’t have caught you you’d have been passed away.’ You know, it was in the hole because it was freezing. Anyway —
GC: You got two weeks survivor’s leave didn’t you?
CG: Yeah. I don’t know why I’m here. If they can do that to me [pause] anyway [laughs]
SP: So, what, what sort of things did you learn on the fitter’s course? What was the training?
CG: It was guns. You know, things like that. We went to the fitter’s camp to —
GC: That was your next bit. Eventually you moved to Scampton.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Where you were a fitter/gun armourer.
CG: Yeah. I were a gun armourer. Needed fitting a bit. Everything, you know.
GC: You had to make sure that the turrets on the planes were working and that the ammunition was laid out correctly.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what would it be like? So, did the, on an operation and the planes would land. Or pre-operation what would your role be? What would you do before the planes went out and when the planes came back?
CG: I had to load the guns. You know, with the ammunition. The turrets. Making sure they were working alright. Then we’d go out on trial runs over the sea. Over that way, you know. That way. And, well all of the, all the engines were [pause] oh it brought down one of the engines. Nothing to do with me actually but, and he, the pilot said, ‘Right. We’re in trouble here. One engine’s packed in. We’ve got to get back to shore.’ Well actually we were practicing these, with these engines and firing them to the —
SP: To the drogue was it?
CG: Yeah.
SP: When you went out practicing firing on the planes.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you actually go on the flights with them for that?
CG: Oh yes. Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Was that to check that all the machinery was working?
CG: That’s right. We fired at a drogue. What they called a —
SP: A drogue. Yeah.
CG: [unclear]
SP: Yeah. So, the drogue was for you to, the guns to aim at, wasn’t it?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Anyway, it [pause] he said we’ll have to jettison. He said we’ll have to get out of the plane. And what was it now. Like abandon ship kind of thing, you know. Anyway, we had the door open. Open the door, Jumped out. Anyway, when we looked across, we could see the shoreline like. They could see there were a trawler from one of the boats from [pause] what do they call the place?
SP: It’s alright. From one of the ports. One of the boats did you say could see you?
CG: Could see. Yeah. Could see it coming out fast because two of the blokes had dropped out.
SP: So, they’d baled out.
CG: Baled out. Yeah. And I didn’t go. I didn’t go. Two went and they got picked up. You could see them in the water. Anyway, he carried on then because he could see his men were alright, you know. We didn’t go back to, we went back to Waddington. That’s wasn’t ours. Scampton was our place.
GC: You didn’t jump because the pilot said it was ok, didn’t he?
CG: Yeah.
GC: He said everything was ok. Picked up.
CG: Yeah.
GC: So, you didn’t jump.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Saved you having a, saved you having a soaking in the sea.
CG: Anyway, it did, it did, it did crash land but it was only at Waddington. It’s not far away. Well it’s a big place.
SP: What was the landing like then because obviously you were coming in with a damaged, was it a damaged engine did you say? Yeah. So, what was that like for you to come in on a damaged engine?
CG: Well I were in the rear turret and I didn’t know any better and the pilot said, ‘They’ve shook me up so much,’ He crash landed actually because he come down and he finished up in doc for that. He was a nice lad. Because I dressed out in blue, hospital blue. Slouching around, you know [unclear]
SP: So, was anyone injured on the, was anyone actually injured on the landing or was everybody ok?
CG: They bumped me.
SP: Shook up. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Ok.
CG: So it were, where did I go from there? Oh, I went in doc. In doc.
SP: So, you’d have to get back to Scampton.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. Was the plane repaired then at Waddington? Or —
CG: It were, yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But I didn’t go in that. I got in the ambulance, you know, to the hospital
SP: Yeah.
CG: Take over. Sat back and enjoyed myself [laughs] Where did I go from there?
SP: So just about your time still at Scampton. So, you’d check the guns. You’d, you’d go on the flights to check that everything was working.
CG: Oh yeah, I was —
SP: Yeah. What would you do when you were on the ground during the day? What would be a typical fitter’s —
CG: Yeah.
SP: You know.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Armourer’s day? What would that be like for you?
CG: Firstly, the turrets. You know, the turrets. Automatic you know. We had to make sure they were all geared up. Working right. Fitted all the turrets with hundreds and hundreds of bullets and stuff like that. We had, we went back to Kirkham more knowledgeable you know, [laughs] Which was going to Blackpool because Kirkham — Blackpool. Kirkham. Any excuse.
SP: So, going for more training. Was that because things changed like different types of plane had different turrets, different guns?
CG: Oh yeah. Yeah.
SP: So, would that be going to be upskilled on different types of guns or did you have to just to keep your knowledge every year or something?
CG: Well, I kept going back to Kirkham to pick up. They’d teach you there. We just, not enough. They were sat up there.
SP: Right.
CG: On this, you know firing of these ground level, you know. We did that several times so I got [unclear]
SP: So, did you work with a particular crew or did you work on all the planes? Or were you linked more to one plane and one crew. Or —
CG: For the two. I were attached to two flights because I went to Scampton then and that’s where I were fully qualified.
SP: Right.
CG: You know, I were fully but —
GC: You had Hampdens. And then you moved on to Manchesters before you got the Lancasters. When you were with 49 Squadron, before you went to 617.
CG: I think I’ll put my hat and coat on.
SP: And go [laughs] So what were the, you know obviously some very early planes there with Hampdens and that. And Wellingtons. What did you think of those planes compared to your Lancasters?
CG: Rubbish. I must admit we landed several times. Crashed.
SP: On which plane? Was it the Manchester did you say?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Horrible.
SP: Yeah. A lot of people said it was quite a very difficult plane.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, you had a few crashes in that. On landing.
CG: Oh God. It were more or less a clapped-out rubbish aircraft.
SP: Yeah.
CG: You more or less landed them, you know?
SP: Yeah .
GC: Dad, you said often that you would see planes limping home in flames. And you’d see them coming in where the bank of trees was. And they were, they were very, it were very, your heart were in your mouth waiting for them.
CG: Oh yeah.
GC: Wasn’t it? You know. Whether they would make the runway.
CG: Yeah. This is now wartime. You know. Proper war time.
GC: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I mean they come over, you know. Landing.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But, you know, they were your friends, you know.
GC: And the hydraulics failed didn’t they? And they belly flopped, and if you were in that rear gun turret you didn’t stand much a chance did you? In the back.
SP: So, can you talk me through one, maybe an operation that you’d watched go out and you were waiting to come back where there were some problems. What was that like? Waiting around for the planes to come back?
CG: Horrible. Yeah. You know. Especially if you see one coming and it had been shot at and it were all in flames going over the top of these trees. I don’t know why there were all these trees in the way. I saw all that, you know. But anyway, it was rough.
SP: So, did you see any that actually didn’t make it?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: What was it like then on the base when —?
CG: It was horrible because the turrets were electric you know and if they’d shot up. The plane. The electrics didn’t shut off, you know. So, the person who was in that turret he can’t move it.
SP: Right.
CG: So, he’s stuck in there until one of his mates come from the mid-upper turret and winds it by hand. You know, the electrics are gone.
SP: Right.
CG: But —
SP: So was that the case for some of them where they couldn’t get to the rear gunner because of the electrics going.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: But, yeah [pause] happened anyway. We’re still, it was still like, how shall I put it [pause] it’s was all going ahead now with a proper war you know.
SP: Yeah.
CG: So, there was so many accidents, you know. I mean, I lost one or two friends you know. But they had been loading the bombs up. And they’d sit on them while they went out to dispersal [unclear] and there would be many accidents where it’s gone up. You know.
SP: So, the armourers would sit on the bombs as they went out to the planes. And what would cause the, the bombs to go off?
CG: I don’t —
SP: Just —
CG: I don’t [unclear] it. I think they were bouncing too much, you know. But they sat on them and went up with them.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I never did that.
SP: No.
CG: I went to dispersal on a bike.
SP: Yeah. And did you have a set dispersal point that you’d go to?. Were you allocated to a set dispersal point where you’d always go to and look after the plane that landed there?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. And was that far away from where you were based?
CG: It wasn’t far and we used to, well we were given bicycles. Used to [pause]
SP: Yeah.
CG: But there was lots of things. Had to keep up with 58 Squadron. they were never, I’d never heard of that one before but it came from somewhere outlandish. I don’t know where it was but they parked them way out.
SP: Right.
CG: There must have been a reason for it because, well I know there’d be a reason for it. You know. What shall we say [unclear] we had flares you know.
SP: Fido? Was it the runway did you say, with flares?
CG: No. These flares. This was something to do with 58. Something. I think it was that. It’s gone now.
GC: 58 Squadron.
CG: Yeah. I’m not sure.
SP: Ok.
CG: But they were right out at dispersal but, and obviously they loaded it with the flares. And the bloke, it was dipping, and I remember that [pause] helping out because officially I was nothing to do with that squadron. I don’t know where they come from, but he pulls, he loaded this big flare. He set out and he got all the, blew that one up. It blew nearly every one of them up with people.
SP: Really, right.
CG: Yeah.
GC: Good job it were a bit far out. That’s bad isn’t it. So about three planes went up didn’t they?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Because the flare went off.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
GC: And that were when they were on the ground.
CG: That’s right.
SP: And which airfield was that at. That was, was that when you were at Scampton or at one of the other —?
SP: Yeah
SP: At Scampton. Ok.
CG: Yeah. Nothing really, nothing doing.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I don’t know why a full squadron was on. On that Scampton crew. But they played it down of course.
SP: Well, you were at an airfield where obviously 617 Squadron were so —
CG: Yeah.
SP: You had quite a lot of inventive things going on there didn’t you, on that?
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you meet or see anyone at that time from 617 Squadron?
GC: He was in it.
SP: But any of the crew? Did you work on their planes then for 617 Squadron, on their practicing or —
CG: Oh honest, we were right. What it was they wanted to create a squadron and we had planes that they had and all, but mine was 49 Squadron. Apparently, they was told to create, to go around picking the best people up and create a squadron which was 617 Squadron. You know what it was, you know and they pinched two of my planes from 49 Squadron.
SP: Right.
CG: So, and then we moved over.
SP: So, you went with them because they wanted the best fitters as well.
CG: Yeah. Oh yeah. Put it that way, yeah. In fact —
SP: So, the planes that you moved over with from 49, were any of those involved on the Dambusters run itself or were they —?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. He was told to create —
SP: Yeah.
CG: A full squadron. Create a unit. 617 Squadron. So, they did all right. He had this dog [unclear] I’m losing it.
SP: No, you’re alright.
CG: Like a —
SP: Is this Guy Gibson’s dog?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Guy Gibson’s dog, N*****?
CG: Yeah. Oh N*****. Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: He got, he got killed didn’t he? I don’t know whether you read it but, our pilot —
GC: You used to take it for a walk.
CG: I’d take it for a walk.
SP: So was this part of your duties. To walk the dog.
CG: Yes.
GC: When he was, when Guy Gibson was out on duty he looked after his dog sometimes and took it for walks.
CG: And then some silly so and so [unclear] but another, a corporal had the job of looking after that dog.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And he let it loose and he got run over it, didn’t he? [unclear] but it got run over by a taxi outside the camp which [unclear] upset Guy Gibson.
GC: Well it would wouldn’t it?
SP: So, did you meet Guy Gibson then?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that? Meeting Guy Gibson. What was he like? What —
CG: He was alright. A bit, you know, stultified. Yeah. He were alright to talk to. Yeah.
SP: You saw Barnes Wallis knocking about, didn’t you?
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, Barnes Wallis as well. So, so he went up to Scampton. To the base while you were there.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, what, what would a day be like working with the 617 Squadron, or the Dambusters? Because they were testing different things wouldn’t they? So, was your job slightly different when you were working with them to when you were working with 49 Squadron?
CG: Well, they had more flying tests because obviously part of it over water, skimmed over the water. We had to do that.
GC: You went over Derwentwater didn’t you? Where they did the test. You were low flying over there in the, in the tail of a Lancaster.
SP: So, you went up on your normal testing of the guns when they were doing the low-level flying.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Do you want to tell me about one of those trips?
CG: There’s a big photograph of it in my bedroom.
GC: It’s in there.
SP: Well take a photo and put it with the recording but what was it like flying at that low level compared to when you’d gone up previously on the —
CG: Yeah. It’s funny when you went up for a test flight. By being right at the front of it you look as though you were flying, you were flying the plane, you know. Just like that. This was very low flying. And the pilot were in front of you, and he’d be only that far from it, and I’m saying to the pilot ‘Pick it up, pick it up. You’re too low,’ and he was, he was about that far from the ground. He gave that impression because he was just so low.
SP: Yeah.
CG: You felt like you were flying that plane you know.
SP: You were so close to the water.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: So —
SP: So do you know who the pilot was who you went with that day?
CG: No.
SP: No.
CG: I’m sorry. I’ve got it down somewhere.
SP: That’s alright. It would be one of the Dambusters guys doing their practice.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And then we, we had some mishaps, you know.
SP: Ok. Do you want to tell me about any of those? What happened? The mishaps.
GC: Didn’t you say the Lancasters always had, you always thought they had a weak undercarriage and they tended to fold on landing.
CG: Oh yeah.
GC: Yeah. And that made you crash a couple of times didn’t it?
CG: Yeah.
GC: And when you were in the rear turret it meant you were thrown about a lot and you were black and blue.
CG: I finished up in hospital.
GC: You ended up at Blackpool again, didn’t you?
CG: In hospital. Yeah.
GC: In your hospital blue. Bruised. Blues. Said it was with the bruising and got the girl’s attention. He’s a right flirt.
CG: Apparently I finished with [unclear] with everything.
SP: So obviously there was problems with the undercarriage. What other mishaps were there with the other things?
CG: Sorry?
SP: You said there were a few other mishaps. Obviously, the undercarriage issues. Anything else?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Tell you some other bit of mishaps what about when the bombing was worse and you worked for three and a half days without sleep and you had to go and get some more bombs because you ran out.
CG: Oh yeah. At Scampton. We were there.
GC: Waddington.
CG: Waddington. We ran out of bombs so we got a big transport and went from Scampton down to the centre of Lincoln. Down by the cathedral. Pinched the bombs and come back through Lincoln.
SP: With all the bombs [laughs] through the centre of Lincoln.
CG: They acquired these. They were on the, they were loaded on these trailers and we were going back up the hill towards the cathedral. The last bomb, they weren’t bombed up by the way but it could have gone off.
GC: They were unarmed. Yeah.
CG: But it was these so-called mates of mine they were sat on these trailers again. On the wagons, you know. And it was going up the hill and this chap, he kicked the wedge from underneath this bomb and it started rolling from half way up the hill down to the bottom. ‘It’s a bomb. Get off the road,’ It rolled down the road. I can laugh now but —
SP: Some steep hills in Lincoln for that bomb to roll down weren’t there?
CG: It was. You’d have got, first you’d got it was, the bomb more or less rolled, only one road. Wedged it up. What do you call it [unclear] the wedges got thrown off so —
GC: What about the night when there was an attack on the base from German fighters and you digged up that tripod with the Lewis gun?
CG: Well, I mean, the, trying to pick my brains there. I created a Lewis gun which is —
GC: Strapped to the tripod.
CG: Yeah.
GC: To try and get the German.
[pause]
SP: So, you were telling me about the tripod that you made.
CG: It was just, yeah, we put, instead of firing one Lewis gun I put two together. Fired them both together, you know. But and I could, build it around and I got a tripod too. And I got the shock of my life. I was in this, you know. Flight, yeah. I didn’t think that it were about from here to in there.
SP: So about six feet away, yeah.
CG: With this German plane going past I could have shook hands with the bloke. It seemed my impression. And no matter what, everybody said it were me what shot him down.
SP: So, you shot at the plane. Was this a plane coming in strafing the —
CG: Yeah. It were German.
SP: A German one. Just on his own? One or was there more night fighters.
CG: Just one.
SP: One. Right.
CG: Yeah. So afterwards we heard that he’d been shot down. We all claimed it [laughs] And so we all hopped onto transport of all kinds. Went out. [unclear] where I pinched this gun, German gun. Naughty. He shouldn’t do that.
SP: So, you took the gun off the pilot? Yeah. What type of gun was it?
CG: [unclear]
SP: It’s alright. Yeah.
GC: You said before was it a luger. A Luger gun [unclear]
CG: Yeah. It was a Luger.
SP: Yeah.
CG: It was a Luger. I was thinking it was a bigger one but it wasn’t.
SP: So, you took that gun off him and when did you have to give it back. Straight away or —
CG: The civilian — not civilian but our —
SP: Military police.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: They took it off for an enquiry.
SP: So, you lost that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, did you get up to any other incidents with your firing or shooting?
GC: Oh, in promotion you were put in charge of the firing range at Scampton weren’t you? Tell them about —
SP: Sorry?
GC: When you got a bit of a promotion you were put in charge of the firing range at Scampton. And you know they had that stockpile of old grenades. Well, tell them what you did with them grenades.
CG: Oh yeah. I mean
GC: Springs had gone weren’t it?
CG: Scampton is an old, you know, well known and —
GC: They were rusty, them grenades. You’re going to knock it off.
SP: So, this pile of grenades Cyril. These were old that were rusty, yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. What did you have to do with them?
CG: Well, they wanted to get rid of them. The idea was to get rid of them anyway. But they were really going off and it’s, the CO said he thought I had to, that there was three grenades and of course I was involved with armaments stuff that were fitted and clearing it. And it were, there were built a pit and I’m stood behind this bloke who happened to be a cook. He come pfft.
SP: So, he pulled the pin out.
CG: He pulled the pin out and threw it at me. Just a silly so and so, you know. Where did it land? Right at my feet. So quick as a flash I dived at it. Knocked him flat on his face. I mean. And it were up in the air and it went off.
SP: So, you kicked the grenade away and it went off.
CG: It was just like that. They put me through for an award but I never. I don’t know what happened [unclear]
[recording paused]
SP: So, Cyril you were saying as well that on one occasion you were issued with a 20mm aircraft cannon. So, do you want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well, I don’t know where they got it from. It were my idea but I mean obviously we had smaller cannon. Like smaller than they have on ships you know. You know they were quite, you know and the thing is the spring on that that type of cannon you see them on the, on the ship. They’re like that.
SP: So, it made you judder. It was really powerful. Yeah. You’re showing me how you were really juddering it. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. So, I told them my bloke’s in charge of them. I said this one is going to vibrate so it’s a long barrel and it’s going to. You’re going to tie a rope around and you go down your side and you were there to hold it down. To, and then keep it down otherwise they’d be all up in the air. It sounds like brrrrr going on the left hand side, let go and it went up in the air straight over. See, there was a bank you were firing in to. But obviously by letting it go that it went up into the air. Anyway, the farmer he was following me, was er, round wondering what was happening, you know. And he was rather uncouth. He was swearing.
SP: So why did the farmer come around?
CG: He saw me, I, me who shot the cow.
SP: So, when the gun went up and it shot over the bank it had killed a cow. So were you in trouble for that or —
CG: I was. Yeah. But we pacified the farmer by volunteer begrudgingly and he obviously did this, and he come and this talk of where it was, he cooked. Cooked. And I said, ‘I can’t eat that. I’ve just shot him,’ and I wouldn’t but some did.
SP: Yeah. So, they actually ate it on base.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Bring it round. So, you did everyone a favour that day didn’t you? They were getting some nice beef on that day. Yeah.
CG: A favour. There were some remarks about it.
SP: So, what was food like on base generally?
CG: Oh, it were alright because we were well established, you know. We were well doted on. Yeah. It were quite good.
SP: So, would you eat in the mess every day?
CG: No.
SP: No.
CG: No, it were mainly officers.
SP: Right. So, where did you eat during the day then? Was it just —
CG: Just [pause] we had our own place.
SP: Right.
CG: You know.
SP: So was it a hut designed for fitters.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And armourers etcetera. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So that’s where you’d see your friends and that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, what did you do on the days when you weren’t working? Did you get days off? What would you do on a day off?
CG: I, one of the chaps he got, he was being moved out of the camp and he had a motorbike. A rather expensive one and he was moving out the same day. Posted somewhere else and he had to get rid of this motorbike. I’d never had one in my life and he had about two hours to sell this. Anyway, it were a nice bike and I bought it for five pound. And I’d never driven a bike in my life, especially one like that. Anyway, I get on. This bloke showed me how to do it. [unclear] The bike were a livewire. You could call it. To go in to the café not café. You know where you eat.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And how am I going to get it to stop? ‘Cause it wasn’t that wide the path. Anyway, without any further ado I thought somebody open the door for me. And they did. I went straight in to the door on this side. Wrapped it up. So, I flogged it to somebody else.
SP: That was the end of your biking days.
CG: Two hours. Two hours I had to, I bought it, sort of thing. I’ve never had one since.
SP: No.
CG: No way.
SP: So, it wasn’t your transport into Lincoln was it, then?
CG: Yeah.
GC: Pushbike instead.
SP: So, yeah, you went on pushbike into Lincoln from then on, did you? You went on pushbike into Lincoln after those days.
CG: After that.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And where did you go in Lincoln? Was there anywhere in particular all the ground crew would go?
CG: Yes. I’d say the ground but officers went there.
SP: Yeah.
GC: Dragging his brains now, trying to remember.
SP: Yeah.
GC: You’ve told me this many times and I’ve forgotten myself dad.
CG: Have you?
GC: That pub in Lincoln. What’s it called? I bet you don’t know.
SP: So, you’d mainly go in to a pub where everybody tended to meet in Lincoln.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So, what was life like in that pub? What’s a typical night like that? Mad?
CG: There might be fifty people.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. All of them mainly on bikes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Oh, come on Gillian.
GC: Go on prompting. Put him out of his misery. He don’t know.
[recording paused]
SP: Ok. So, you remember the name of your pub? What was it?
CG: Yeah. This mate of mine. He opened a pub.
SP: And that was the Adam and Eve.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And he used to bribe some of his mates to stand in for him so he could run his own pub, you know. Without any trouble. And all the officers knew, you know. He said they’re on duty that night but he wanted to be at this pub. So, he would slip, he would slip to, oh dear. So, he’d get as many as, roughly fifty, more sometimes.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I think he made a lot of money. He used to bribe ‘em.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But it were a laugh when we were all in because the roads, they all were on pushbikes on the road that way. All on country roads and it was a laugh were getting your mates on to, on their bike and push them off into it.
SP: So, this was after all the drinking. You’d have to weave your way back on bikes. Yeah.
CG: We had to.
SP: And how far was it? About.
CG: What? Back to camp?
SP: Yeah. About. How far back to camp?
CG: Oh, about seven. Seven, seven miles.
SP: Seven miles is quite a distance to wobble on a bike. Yeah. So, Cyril you were based at Scampton for quite some time with the armoury.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Obviously a key part of checking all those planes ready for the Dambusters raid. And obviously you were there at the time of the Dambusters raid and after and obviously saw Guy Gibson, Barnes Wallis and had actually taken the famous dog for a walk as well. So obviously some really important role, or a really important role by yourself during then. So, once you’d finished at Scampton you then ended up going to Canada. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well, I was, I knew, it was explained to me that they wanted to destroy — what did they call it? Lease lend. British American stuff. They didn’t want it. They’d lent it to us. We didn’t want it. They didn’t want it. So, they decided all of it but we had the job of destroying it all. It was hundreds of thousands of dollars of [ brute? ] blown up. Everything. All new stuff. They just didn’t want it. We didn’t want it. We had fifteen blokes working. Destroying it, you know. New stuff. Flying jackets. Everything. It were a full time up. It dwindled off finally. You know. Then we started enjoying ourself.
SP: So, where was this? Where were you based? This was in Canada was it? You had to go over to Canada to destroy.
CG: Oh no. In the camp.
SP: In England.
CG: No.
SP: Sorry.
CG: Sorry. It were over there.
SP: Right. So over, yeah.
CG: They took us over there.
SP: So, you went over there to do the destroying and that. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. A base on a Canadian camp. But they had nothing to do with me. I were in sole charge of all, of all the information to me and I decided. The only thing is I were a fitter armourer not a bomb armourer. Things like, I had to fathom it out. Sort it out. How to destroy. Let it burn, burn, burn in big furnaces.
SP: How long were you in Canada for?
CG: I were there ten months.
SP: Ten. Ten months, right.
CG: In that time, I nearly went back because when I got out there it worries you. High up people you know. And as soon as they finished they packed in and went and they left me to look after everything, you know [laughs] Ridiculous.
SP: So, this was at the end of the war obviously.
CG: Yes.
SP: So how did, did you get de-mobbed then or —
CG: No.
[recording paused]
SP: So, Cyril we were just going to talk about your demob but before then we’ll talk a little bit about your time in Canada. So, on your days off I believe you went down to New York?
CG: I went New York, Chicago, Montreal, Nova Scotia. All over. And in New York we found out if you go to this place in New York this person was a multi-millionaire and he, we had it, just two of us being fed. You’ve never seen anything like it. You only see them on telly. All the stairs was divided up and all the gold. This chap a multimillionaire. And it was all genuine and we got it all free for a whole week. And we waited. Waited and everything. There was girls there. This older lady used to come in and she brought these young girls in. ‘Do you want to go anywhere in New York? Just tell me and I’ll get tickets for you.’ We got it, that flat. I’ve never seen in my life a staircase going like that. Just like that.
SP: And that’s just because you were in RAF uniform?
CG: Yeah. Precisely.
SP: Yeah.
CG: [unclear] I mean it was laughable. I’ve got to tell you the bit. These mates that got brought over here I used to say to them, they actually took over a cinema in the camp and this captain used to —
GC: It’s fine.
SP: So —
CG: Yes. She used to come up in a beautiful soft topped thing and I said to these mates of mine, and one said, ‘What’s on tonight?’ I said, ‘What’s on tonight?’ I said, ‘Just come here and look at this. My friends used to come up in a beautiful soft top do, and you only had to go from A to B and the first one comes along and said, ‘Are you English?’ Because the war had finished and they were all, you know, doing. And you were asking me what’s on at night at the pictures. I said, ‘You want an answer do you?’
SP: I believe you saw a few famous people as well while you were there.
CG: Oh, lots of them.
SP: Yeah. Anyone in particular you remember?
CG: Well, Bing Crosby and, he did the abroad. What was it? Bing Crosby. Frank Sinatra. And women. I don’t know I keep losing it. But in fact I’ve got photographs actually somewhere because this is just an hasty look. We’ve got a lot of them.
GC: Yeah. We have.
CG: Yeah. Photos of your time over there in America. Brilliant.
CG: Skated. That was what put me off this because she was so fit. A really fit person. Skated, skied up in the mountains.
GC: Jacqueline.
CG: I saw her, you know. Nice tan on her. And me [laughs]
SP: Yeah. So, whilst you were in New York and you were being treated because of your RAF uniform, in a very special way, you went up the Empire State Building as well.
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. What was that like?
CG: Oh you know, it had had that fire in there. I think you mentioned it didn’t you? When I had come away from it. And yeah. We came away and we had this, this bloke had a camera.
GC: Telescope.
CG: A telescope. This were about a good mile away.
SP: So, you’d been up the Empire State.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Done all your views, come down and there’d been an incident where a plane had gone in to it.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. Well, this but was another one.
SP: Right.
CG: The one had already done that one.
SP: Right.
CG: Gone into it. This was another plane.
SP: Right.
CG: We’d come away from it. We’d come down. Come away. And we come across this bloke reporting it, and we asked and he said, ‘Oh there’s a plane crashed into it.’ It were another one. One of our own. A chap and his wife, she’d had to be, they’d had to be gone in to. I can’t believe it. Just think an hour before it could have been us in there.
SP: You’d have been up there. Yeah. Right. So, was this a small plane?
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I forget how much we put in. So many dollars in. It were a few. Crafty this bloke with the telescope.
SP: For people to look. Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Because there was a report that a B25 Mitchell in the fog had gone into it so obviously —
CG: Yeah.
SP: There were some problems around that time so —
CG: Yeah.
SP: But luckily for you, you were in the right place at the right time then weren’t you and you’d come down.
CG: But she said, [unclear] she laughed, when she looked. I said, ‘Oh no, no you outn’t,’ I said. Yes. Anyway, we got on very well then. She was as bad as Jacqueline which was my girlfriend.
SP: So, Jacqueline was your girlfriend in Canada. Yeah. From the family that were up there.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, from, after America and then you went back obviously to and from Canada. You came home via Halifax via Nova Scotia, did you? Talk to me about your journey home from Canada.
CG: Funnily enough, yeah. We were going to fly home but we found out there was that plane, not a plane, a ship.
SP: This boat. The HMS —
CG: Yeah. Leticia.
SP: Leticia, yeah.
CG: That was just coming in. It was hours disembarking. And all them from out of that were from England and they were all women and they all had youngsters. You know. They’d got married over here and they were coming to, to live in Canada with baby.
SP: So, their, their boyfriends or husbands were Canadian.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Or American.
CG: Yeah.
SP: And obviously they’d met in the war, in England
CG: That’s right.
SP: And after the war they were going back to live with the families of their crewmen or army.
CG: Well these were, these were actually coming in.
SP: Yeah. From England. The ladies with their children.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Were coming in to Canada.
CG: Yeah.
SP: To live with the force’s, boyfriends and husbands. Right.
CG: We were just the opposite. They were traded. You know after we got off this, off our boat and they were going in the opposite direction. We were talking to them. Yeah. Where do you live? You know.
SP: So I believe you had some fun getting on your, was it on your train towards the ship. You nearly missed it did you?
CG: How did you know that?
SP: Do you want to tell me a little bit about that then?
CG: He put me off.
SP: Yeah. So, you were going to post a letter and —
CG: Oh yeah.
SP: You nearly missed the, oh you did miss the train, didn’t you?
CG: I did.
SP: So how did you catch it up?
CG: Well there was this taxi bloke he, he said we’ll drive, drop you off. He could see what had happened and he said, ‘I’ll try and catch your train up.’ No chance. Anyway, he dropped me off. Then the train [pause] and then we went about ten miles finding an express train. Anyway, we went to the station. It were only a poky little station. I thought it’s never, it’s never going to stop for me here. Anyway, the station master there was the only bloke I could see, and it were, you know, anyway, so I tried. No. I thought it’s not going to stop for me. Anyway, I thought I’d try. He went past me and nearly run me down in the train. But I got chewed up for that. Stopping an express train.
SP: So, you managed to get on.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Right.
CG: Well, the funny thing was I got on board this ship and one or two of my so-called mates said he’s tried to dodge out. He’s tried. All I wanted was to post this card. I said, ‘I want to post this card.’ ‘No, you can’t. You can’t get off.’ He was stopping me moving. You know, moving.
SP: Yeah.
CG: They were winding me up.
SP: So, you got on. How long did it take to get home? Can you remember how long it took on the ship? To sail.
CG: It were only a small ship that I got.
SP: Yeah.
CG: It were luxury because on board were all these women and girls with babies. They’d, they’d turned over like.
SP: Right.
CG: So, you could just imagine and they had the servants, you know, from here. So, we were, there were only fifteen of us and these blokes, English blokes who were more or less with these beautiful girls who’d come over. They were looking after then. They were looking after us then [laughs] honestly. It were like a cruise. It were beautiful. I know it was only a small ship but beautiful.
SP: So, you docked and then you’d go to your demob. Where were you de-mobbed?
CG: Liverpool. Yes. It be so daft. As a mate got out and he was going back with me. We were only, they were only handfuls. Anyway, he was just, you know like how can I make it right? Anyway, how shall I put it [pause] he could go back to his old trade.
SP: Right. Yeah.
CG: But it was when you go abroad and you have these people, you know checking your clothes and all that. What do you call them?
SP: It was like at immigration.
CG: Yeah.
SP: So you were coming in.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Coming in to immigration. Yeah.
CG: Yeah. But, well we didn’t say anything to this other bloke. There was immigration and we were winding him up. They hadn’t noticed ‘cause he’d got his uniform, you know all were in uniform. All the rest of us, nobody, but he didn’t know. And they got panicking because they’d brought cigarettes.
SP: Oh, so they had the cigarettes on them. Yeah.
CG: Millions of them.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And we passed word to this bloke, ‘You’ll have to watch it, Pat’ ‘Why?’ ‘This bloke’s on board doing —,’ and you know lot of cigarettes, all kind of things.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Anyway, the following morning he’s still on board. He still hadn’t checked up. His old mate was there and he were pulling his leg. He didn’t realise it. And the following morning his best friend were looking for him and the ship weren’t a massive one.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But the bay what it had gone in there were millions of cigarettes in boxes all floating around and what had caused it was this bloke saying, I believe this, what do they call them Gillian?
GC: [unclear]
SP: So, they’d all got wet, the cigarettes then.
CG: Oh yeah. They were all floating.
SP: Floating. So at least he got through immigration alright then. He didn’t get in trouble. So you were de-mobbed then. What did you go on to do after the war?
CG: [Francis. Francis’ at Hollywood.]
SP: Right. And what did they do?
CG: Engineering.
SP: Engineering.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
CG: Which is what you’d wanted to do originally wasn’t it?
SP: Yeah.
CG: Yeah.
GC: You were a fitter though.
SP: Yeah.
CG: But I finished up inside the, and I also started building these transformers and what have you, massive things.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And I finished up going all over the place. I got married by then.
GC: You went working on ships, didn’t you?
CG: And I then, I was going on ships, planes all over England.
SP: Right.
CG: and Ireland. That were my job.
SP: Yeah.
CG: And I used to go, they used to be at Harland and Wolff’s building ships there and my job was to go out, check it out, making sure. We used to go north of Scotland on trials and stuff.
SP: Right.
CG: A bit different.
SP: So a lot of travelling.
CG: It was.
SP: Yeah.
CG: I used to fly there.
SP: Yeah.
CG: Part of my job.
SP: And is that what you did ‘til you retired then? Worked in engineering and that.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Brilliant. So obviously you worked in engineering until you retired. When you first got back and you were de-mobbed, I think you met your wife quite soon after the war.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Do you just want to tell me a little bit about that?
CG: Well we both liked dancing, you know and doing —
SP: Where did you meet her? Which dance hall did you meet her in?
CG: I forget what it were called but at the stores.
SP: Right. So, in Oldham.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. You met her there.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. Got married soon after.
CG: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. And what was your wife’s name?
CG: [laughs]
SP: And your wife’s name was —?
GC: Nora.
SP: Yeah. Your wife’s name was Nora. Brilliant. So, you met her. I think you told me it was love at first sight wasn’t it? Well Cyril it’s been really a pleasure to interview you today.
CG: Oh it is. I’m not. I’ve been losing it. I have. I can’t —
SP: Well you’ve got some fantastic stories there that we can share with people.
CG: Oh I have my [unclear]. Yeah.
SP: We’ll take you some photographs and I’d just like to thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command for your time today. So, thank you very much Cyril.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Cyril Gosling
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoslingC180907
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:21:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Cyril Gosling trained as an armourer at Kirby in Blackpool and was first posted to 49 Squadron where he worked on the guns and turrets. As part of his role he would go on flights in the bombers to check the guns accuracy by firing at drogues. On one occasion they had to make an emergency landing when the engine failed. He often rode on the bomb trolleys on their way to the dispersals.
Cyril was chosen to move to 617 Squadron as an armourer when the squadron formed at RAF Scampton. He met Barnes Wallis and knew Guy Gibson, often taking his dog for a walk. Cyril flew in one of the Lancasters as they carried out a test run over the Derwent Water dam. Cyril's memory of the day of Eder, Möhne and Sorpe operation was marred by a tragic event at the base. His friend had a 'dear John' letter from his girlfriend and took his own life in front of Cyril. After the war Cyril moved to Canada and was involved with the destruction of war equipment not longer needed. He was saddened by the fact that along with armaments, they had to destroy clothing which would have been gratefully received by families in England. During his periods of leave he and fellow RAF colleagues went to New York. They were treated in his words like 'Royalty' and put up in hotels for free and were introduced to Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby. Cyril also remembers going up the Empire State Building when later the same day a B-25 Mitchell bomber crashed into it in during thick fog. Cyril return by Ship to England in September 1946.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Illinois--Chicago
New York (State)--New York
Illinois
New York (State)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
49 Squadron
58 Squadron
617 Squadron
animal
bomb trolley
civil defence
crash
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Home Guard
Lancaster
Manchester
RAF Kirkham
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brett, Dennis
Dennis T Brett
D T Brett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Brett, DT
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Dennis Brett (b. 1924) and four photographs. He served as an air frame mechanic at RAF Carnaby.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Dennis Brett and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-22
2015-07-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MJ: It’s on.
DTB: Dennis T Brett. Born 4 9 24. RAF service 12 11 42 to 5 3 47. Tested and found to have mechanical ability and so trained as a flight mechanic airframe at RAF Locking. Served mainly in Yorkshire at Driffield on Martinets. Leconfield, Lissett, Holme on Spalding Moor and Carnaby. Carnaby -
[machine pause]
MJ: Go on.
DTB: Carnaby was used for emergency landings along with two others, Woodbridge and Manston. They were known colloquially as crash ‘dromes. A wide variety of English and American aircraft was seen at Carnaby and on very foggy nights FIDO was in operation. Soon after the war ended I was taken on a low level flight in a Halifax to see the extent of damage inflicted on German cities by aircraft of Bomber Command. My last six months of service was spent in Italy, Egypt and Palestine with a Dakota squadron of Transport Command. Right. In wartime Britain there were three emergency landing grounds a little inland from the east coast. They were Manson, Woodbridge and, in the north, Carnaby, about three miles from Bridlington in Yorkshire. Their purpose was to allow damaged aircraft, sometimes with injured crew, to land if necessary without warning. To facilitate this the runways were large. Carnaby’s being three miles long and three runways wide. The soft bituminous surface was to minimise friction caused by a rough landing. When I arrived [pause] we saw and serviced a variety of aircraft. English and American. Can you put that off?
[machine pause]
We saw and serviced a variety of aircraft. English and American. The US crews were not noted for their navigational skills. I recall seeing the three twin-engined Whirlwinds the crew of which seemed to be lost. One pilot remarked, ‘We thought we were in North Devon.’ When a damaged aircraft landed our fire crews rushed to extinguish any flames. The armourers checked for bombs and guns. And the riggers took, looked for any physical damage to the aircraft and then towed the aircraft away to dispersal. We were puzzled one night when after landing safely the crew got out of the aircraft and ran. They soon told us that there was a long delay fused bomb on board likely to explode at any moment. It was the armourers of course who had to be there to defuse the bomb before other workers were allowed near the aircraft. Can we?
[machine paused]
Sometimes I was on special night duty all alone in a small hut at one end of the runway. This was more than a mile away from the control tower. My bed was two or three feet away from an electrical installation which bore the warning, “Danger 11000 volts.” We were always ready to receive aircraft but on bombing nights we were especially alert. I’m sorry.
[machine paused]
My job was then to operate the lighting system. On receiving an order from the control tower I would pull a switch to turn on the sodium funnel lights. These were spaced in a narrowing V shape embedded near the foot of the runway and were a guide for aircraft approaching to land. The lights were arranged in the shape of a funnel. In bad weather and when many aircraft were expected the order would be given to ‘strike arc’ and I then had to pull a switch to activate the searchlight system. Searchlights were positioned, one each side of the runway, at its entrance. They were angled towards each other to form a cross so that incoming aircraft could enter through the triangular shape below the cross. Bad weather was a great danger to airmen returning tired and cold from a raid lasting eight or more hours. Fog was a major problem. As a counter measure a system of pipework called FIDO, Fog Instantaneous Dispersal Operation had been installed along each side of the runway. In operation, petrol was pumped through the holes in the pipework, then ignited to produce flames several feet high. This was meant to clear the fog and it probably did so but at the time I thought its great value was that the flames could be seen by pilots trying to land. In such circumstances a successful landing was a tremendous relief for the aircrew. This might seem far-fetched but I was a personal witness to a memorable incident when a Lancaster had come in to a halt the crew got out and some of them actually kissed the ground. Reminders of the darker side of war were frequent. Crash landings were a common sight. A faulty undercarriage was usually the cause and the result was what we called a belly landing. Some aircraft burst into flames when landing. Others were already on fire as they approached. The sight of a red gun turret is one that I cannot forget. Even our medical officer was seen to turn pale sometimes. But there was also a lighter side to life at Carnaby. Sometimes a bad landing would cause an aircraft to bounce not just once but in a continuing series from which the pilot could not escape until the laws of physics allowed. We called this a kangaroo landing. The Yorkshire winter was harsh. One night the wind caused my eyes to water and the intense cold froze my tears so that I could not open my eyes. This was only momentary and a good rub was all that was needed to solve the problem. The snow lay thick everywhere and this emboldened the local rats to come rather too close to our hut. We shot at them with our sten guns but I doubt whether we hit any.
[machine paused]
Our commanding officer was a very experienced pilot who was known to have seen much action in the war. His free and easy manner was in direct contrast to the usual strictly authoritarian attitude of the administrators. He would sometimes sit outside the control tower with his legs dangling through the railings swinging them to and fro. In this way he was exhibiting his persona for all to see. I happened to be on duty when he decided to take a Sunday afternoon trip with his young son. After I’d pulled away the chocks and motioned him out he asked me if I would like to come too and I gladly agreed. One fine day I noticed a large number of, to me, unidentified aircraft all flying eastwards. They were not in any kind of formation. They were towing gliders. These gliders were at a certain angle to my vision so that only one wing was visible. A strange sight. It soon became obvious to us that the invasion of Normandy had begun. The gliders were, I believe, Horsas and the planes were DC3, better known as Dakotas. I was soon to become much more familiar with them when I was transferred to a Dakota squadron. At the end of the war I was invited to go up in a Halifax to retrace some of the routes our bombers had taken and to witness the devastation. We flew low over a number of cities including Rotterdam which had been bombed by the Germans and battle areas such as Arnhem and Aachen. Our pilot was on a high, in high spirits after the ending of hostilities. He would approach a city from a certain height and dive bomb it at an angle of about forty five degrees. Then over the city he would pull up sharply out of the dive. This continuing sensation was too much for me and I was physically sick for most of the flight home and my muscles ached for a week afterwards. I still have a reluctance to fly though I had to do so in 1981 when I was seconded to the City University of New York. To my regret the airline did not provide a parachute. Large four-engined, large four-engined aircraft such as the Stirling, Halifax, Lancaster and Fortress were designed for level flight not aerobatics and for a Halifax to be flown in such a vigorous way says much for the strength and construction of this, this aircraft. My experience at Carnaby remained long in my memory. Forty years later I would sometimes wake up in the night. In my dream a large four-engined bomber coming in towards me to crash land.
[machine paused]
Well my elder brother was in Coastal Command and used to fly as the wireless operator rear gunner in a Beaufort and I think it was in 1942 when the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau German battleships made a dash through the channel. He was engaged in torpedoing the Scharnhorst but in the process he was badly wounded and received shrapnel in various parts of the body and face and managed to survive. The gun turret was badly damaged and for this service he was awarded the mention in dispatches. I think that’s all that can be said there.
MJ: What was your actual job in the RAF?
DTB: Well I was what was known as a flight mechanic airframe otherwise known as a rigger and we were responsible for the whole of the aircraft physically other than the engine and the guns. And we had daily inspections for which we had to sign from the safety point of view. We had to check brakes, hydraulics, the movement of the flaps, rudder, elevators and of course petrol filling and so on and we had to make body work repairs where necessary.
MJ: How did you do that?
DTB: Whether it, well on early aircraft it would be on [pause] covered in, the early aircraft, I think the wimpy as well was covered in cloth. Muslin or, not muslin, no. Irish linen and we learned how to make a repair for that. On most of the aircraft they were metal and we had to make a hole and rivet all around it and patch them in that way but that was it. The whole of the aircraft had to be inspected and many points inspected and then signed for for the safety of the pilot. The Lancaster which was the best. It was the fastest and could carry the heaviest bomb load. The Halifax was next and then the other one. I can’t remember the name of it you know.
MJ: Yeah. I can’t remember exactly what one it is but I know which one you mean so, yeah.
DTB: But of course, you know there are other aircraft as well. The Mosquito was the fastest aircraft in that war and it was a bomber and it was a fighter bomber.
MJ: Yeah. Didn’t they take off from the airports with the flame?
DTB: No. It wasn’t a biplane. No.
MJ: No. No. They used to take off in the fog didn’t they?
DTB: There were Swordfish in the early days, I think the Swordfish was in that battle with the Scharnhorst as well as the Beauforts.
MJ: Yeah.
DTB: Well there we are.
MJ: Here’s the end of the interview with Dennis Brett at Ruskington. The International Bomber Command would like to thank him for his recording on the date of the 22nd of May 2015. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dennis Brett
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mick Jeffery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-22
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABrettD150522, PBrettDT1501
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis was born in 1924 and joined the Royal Air Force in November 1942. He trained as a flight mechanic airframe at RAF Locking and was responsible for the whole of the aircraft, apart from the engines and the guns. Dennis explained the emergency landing grounds at RAF Manston, RAF Woodbridge and RAF Carnaby, which were wider to allow damaged aircraft to land safely. His last six months of service were spent in Italy, Egypt and Palestine with a C-47 squadron of Transport Command.
Sometimes Dennis was on special night duty alone in a hut a mile away from the control tower. His job was to operate the lighting system on receiving an order from the control tower. He referred to a memorable incident when a Lancaster landed safely and some of the crew kissed the ground.
When the invasion of Normandy began Dennis was transferred to a C-47 squadron. At the end of the war he went up in a Halifax to retrace some of the routes the bombers had taken and to witness the devastation. He left the RAF in 1947. In 1981 Dennis was seconded to the City University of New York.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
United States
Egypt
Italy
Middle East
England--Kent
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
England--Somerset
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:19 audio recording
bombing
C-47
control tower
Cook’s tour
FIDO
fitter airframe
flight mechanic
ground crew
Halifax
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Carnaby
RAF Locking
RAF Manston
RAF Woodbridge
training
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Assheton, Jacqueline
J Assheton
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Jacqueline Assheton (b.1939) and three photographs. She is the daughter of Air Chief Marshall Arthur Harris.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jacqueline Assheton and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Assheton, JJ
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: I think it must have done.
Other: Can you rewind it?
CB: I did it just then and it because that’s why I looked at the counter which I should have done earlier. Right.
JA: What do you want to do now?
CB: Do you mind if we restart?
JA: Yes, do —
CB: Can we do that?
JA: Yeah.
CB: So, my name is Chris Brockbank and today is 10th of May 2017 and I’m in London with Jackie Assheton to talk about her life and times as the daughter of Bomber Harris. So, what are the earliest recollections you have of your life Jackie?
JA: Well, my earliest recollections really are, which was the Bomber Command house in Buckinghamshire near High Wycombe where my pa was stationed and working for the last three years of the war. And that was just a lovely childhood in a big garden with nice friends next door and I wasn’t involved really in what was going on except, ‘Please be quiet your father is working.’ Or thinking [laughs] And everybody in uniform. And that’s really, I don’t really have there was nothing particularly special about it. Occasionally there was some Americans. Rather nice Americans. In uniform again. Who would bring the odd bottle of bourbon, I think. Not for me but for my pa and dolls for me which I didn’t like. I stripped them of their clothes and dressed my teddy bear as far as I remember. Nice things like chocolates. Hershey bars. They appeared. And that was really it.
CB: What didn’t you like about your clothes of the children? The —
JA: What? The dolls?
CB: The dolls.
JA: I didn’t like dolls.
CB: Only teddy bears.
JA: I only liked teddy bears. Yes. So they got dressed up.
CB: And —
JA: The dolls were given away at the local fete, I think.
CB: And your friend next door.
JA: Oh, Posy Johns was a great friend next door. Yes. So, we’ve now been friends for seventy five years having met through the hedge and so that was, we had great fun together. And I don’t think I went to school. No. I don’t think we had, I don’t think there was a nursery school. I imagine possibly my mother was trying to teach me to read.
CB: There probably weren’t schools —
JA: No. I think I was a slow reader.
CB: For under-fives in those days. So, father was CnC Bomber Command.
JA: Yes.
CB: At that time.
JA: Yeah.
CB: Where had you been before then? He’d been, and you?
JA: Oh, in Washington for about eight months I think when he was, before America joined up and I think it was to do with the lease lend. Sorting out the aeroplanes and the people, whatever was coming over. I think that was, he was busy sorting it out and came back after Pearl Harbour.
CB: Right.
JA: And took on Bomber Command.
CB: Right.
JA: So, I was what? Two when I come back. I don’t really remember anything about Washington.
CB: No. So a lot of it is second hand but in the family.
JA: Right.
CB: You know about, there were things going on. So, to what extent did father engage with you in conversations?
JA: Well, never about the war but just what was going on at the time, you know. He was great with young and the children and [pause] but I just didn’t discuss the war. I think particularly by the end of the war he really didn’t talk about it. I think he’d had enough of it. He took to ships. Africa, where we ended up. And life went on from there.
CB: Yes.
JA: So I wasn’t really at all involved in the war.
CB: Just taking a step back when you went out to Washington.
JA: Yeah.
CB: How did you travel?
JA: Oh, we went out on HMS Rodney which I think was a bit of a shock to the captain and —
CB: Which was a battleship.
JA: It was a battleship. Yeah. My poor mother was very seasick. Suffered from claustrophobia so I think she was probably very frightened and I was running around which can’t have been easy. I’ve still got my little life jacket.
CB: Have you really?
JA: Was it called the Mae West?
CB: Yes.
JA: It’s upstairs on my teddy bear and I think it was stuffed with kapok. I think it’s the sort of thing that when it gets wet you actually sink rather than float but luckily I didn’t have to try it out. And then we came back on a, I believe it was an armed merchant cruiser which must have been another slightly frightening journey. But I don’t remember that. I just remember Springfield.
CB: What were your father’s activities as relaxation?
JA: Oh, cooking was his main thing. Probably to the annoyance of the cook during the war because he’d come straight back and interfere in the kitchen and, no he loved cooking and carried on cooking until the end of his life. Loved it.
CB: What sort of speciality did he have?
JA: Well, he was a very good meat cook in that stews and things were his speciality really and roasts. Wonderful gravy. But he did exotic things. Not always appreciated. I do remember squid cooked in their own ink sitting around in South Africa. Nobody would eat them. He was quite cross. Did look awful in the glass jar I must say. And Boston baked beans. We had rows of pots of Boston baked beans in America. Nobody was very keen on those either I don’t think. But no. He was an adventurous cook. He loved it. Is it working now?
CB: It is. Yes. And your father was running Bomber Command until the end of the war.
JA: Yeah.
CB: What do you know about his feeling about the end of the war and the treatment of himself and bomber crews?
JA: Well, he was only really concerned about the treatment and the recognition of the crews and I think he was very upset that they weren’t given more recognition at the time for the crews that survived and for the families of the ones that didn’t. I think that annoyed him a lot. I think he was very relieved to leave the whole situation behind and take to ships. Cargo shipping instead of aeroplanes. I think he’d had enough of it.
CB: Yes.
JA: Not surprisingly, by then.
CB: Because —
JA: But he did mind very much about the boys. As did his last boss. The Queen Mum.
CB: Right. And that prompted him did it not to refuse a peerage?
JA: Yes. And I think I only heard him once saying that he considered it was a job that he’d have to do as he was going to end up living in South Africa. It wasn’t something he was prepared to take on and, no. He wasn’t keen to do that at all.
CB: So, before the First World War he’d been in Southern Rhodesia.
JA: Yeah.
CB: At the end of the Second World War why did he go to South Africa and not Southern Rhodesia?
JA: Well, because he’d been offered this job in cargo shipping by his American friend Henry Mercer who was running States Marine which was a cargo shipping company and they wanted to set up an end in Africa. So, South Africa Marine known as Safmarine was now going strong still in the Cape. So he got back as far as Cape Town. Not as far as Rhodesia which probably quite lucky. I think he would have been very upset to see what’s happened to it now. He was a bugle boy in the Rhodesian Regiment at the beginning of the First World War and then he wanted to, a very long march across South West Africa, he decided then he wanted to finish the war sitting down and so that’s how he ended up in the Royal Flying Corps.
CB: And then had his whole career —
JA: In the Air Force.
CB: In the RAF.
JA: Yeah.
CB: Yes. Well, first of all Royal Flying Corps.
JA: Yes.
CB: And then RAF.
JA: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
JA: So Janny Smuts was quite a friend of his because he was a great supporter of the Air Force being an independent service, I believe.
CB: Yeah.
JA: I remember him staying with us during the war. I do remember that.
CB: South African general.
JA: Yes.
CB: Yes.
JA: Yeah. And prime minister.
CB: Yes. And what do you remember about being in South Africa as a child?
JA: Oh, well that was lovely because that was pure heaven for a child with the sea and the dogs and the country. The wildness of it. Lovely. I loved that.
CB: And whereabouts was that?
JA: Behind Table Mountain. Wynberg was one of the, near Constantia. And one of those lovely old Cape Dutch houses which was heaven.
CB: And that was, that area was the headquarters of Safmarine was it?
JA: Well, Cape Town was.
CB: Cape town. Right.
JA: Yeah. And the three original ships were [pause] get it right, they were Liberty ships.
CB: Right.
JA: Which I think, I think my pa got that organised in America through Averell Harriman. And they were done up and went out to the Cape and that was the beginning of Safmarine.
CB: So, Henry Mercer was in the States.
JA: Yeah.
CB: What did that, how did that affect your family life?
JA: Well, they were great family friends. We lived in New York but we used to go and spend weekends with them when we were out there and, no so that, that was wonderful because the end of the war my pa was looking for a job and so that all fitted in very neatly.
CB: And did you travel between South Africa and America quite a lot?
JA: Yes. On and off on the cargo ships. I missed out on a bit of schooling here and there. Yeah. And that was very few passengers and quite long journeys in those days. I think it was a couple of weeks to get from New York to Cape Town. No. I enjoyed that too.
CB: When did you return to Britain?
JA: In ’53 and we spent some time living in Cornwall looking for a house and then ended up at Goring nearer London which was probably lucky because it was, my father’s American friends always had itineraries with very little time on them. They got to Goring. They wouldn’t have got to Cornwall. So —
CB: What was he doing when he returned to the UK?
JA: He didn’t have a job. Cooking. Building bridges in the garden. Doing anything practical like that. Oh, and driving a coach and four horses for his old friend who had a collection of old carriages and large Dutch horses and we used to go around the countryside in those exercising them. I think we showed them once at Windsor. He was very keen on that. Then he got rather a bad back and decided it was unsafe sitting up on top of the carriage so he stopped doing that.
CB: And when he returned —
JA: Yeah.
CB: Then he had a baronetcy conferred on him. What was the origin of that?
JA: Well, he’d refused the peerage and the baronetcy. I think actually it was early. I can’t remember the date. Early ’50. Yeah.
CB: Oh right.
JA: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And you’re, on your own side as you got older then what did you do?
JA: Well, after school we went out to South Africa again and then I went to Winkfield. Did my cordon bleu. Following along in the long cooking line [laughs] And, and then I got married rather early and after that I was with my family and children.
CB: So, you had three children.
JA: Grandchildren.
CB: Yes.
JA: And now great granddaughter.
CB: And what did your husband do? Nicholas.
JA: He was a stockbroker and then a banker and then worked for the Queen Mother for a few years.
CB: And did he manage to sort out a lot of things for the Queen Mother?
JA: Well, I think he said it was very well organised already. He didn’t really have to do much sorting out but he very much enjoyed working at Clarence House for nearly five years. She was great and she was a great supporter of my pa. She unveiled his statue.
CB: Excellent and when —
JA: At St Clement Danes.
CB: Yes. And when the children had grown up then did you find yourself involved more with your husband’s activities?
JA: Not his work particularly, no but just running his life. Running our life. A few charitable things like Riding for the Disabled. Doing the church flowers. Nothing stunning at all.
CB: How did you —
JA: It just kept me very busy.
CB: How did the Riding for the Disabled originate?
JA: Oh, well a great friend who was my son’s mother in law was running it at Knightsbridge Barracks and very efficiently she ran it [unclear] and so I used to go help with that. Not with the army horses. With ponies. That was very interesting and that was great.
CB: So, looking back over the years being the daughter of a very famous person who for some people was controversial created a good deal of attention in certain ways. How did you feel about that?
JA: Well, I’ve got nothing to compare it with really and I think my family were very good at protecting me when I was small from it and I kept very much out of controversy since then and very pleased to see the Memorial at Green Park. That’s the one thing that did come in to my life.
CB: The Bomber Command Memorial.
JA: The Bomber Command Memorial. Yes.
CB: Yes.
JA: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
JA: So, I’ve been really very uninvolved with Bomber Command and so it’s very difficult to fill in the background for you.
CB: Sure. What would you say was the most memorable point about your father’s involvement in the RAF?
JA: Goodness. Well, I suppose the Bomber Command years. That was probably the most traumatic for him and probably for my mother and, but it’s always very nice to meet what he called the old lags. Why they were called the old lags I don’t know. He loved his reunion dinner parties at Grosvenor House and talking to the old boys. And I think that was a great encouragement and support for him. I never heard a word of criticism from them.
CB: But he was always well supported by your mother. How did she feel about the strain? Stresses and strains of her husband’s activities.
JA: Well, again, I mean, she didn’t talk about it. I think it’s a modern thing isn’t it to talk about things and dash off for counselling. Nobody really talked about it.
CB: No.
JA: It would be mentioned but not of any great sort of concern or worry. Again, for the details just go back to Henry Probert’s book.
CB: Yes. Absolutely.
JA: And my life just carried on really without being influenced by the Bomber Command years.
CB: Yes.
JA: And so I haven’t really got any exciting stories for you on that line.
CB: But do you get requests occasionally to attend —
JA: No.
CB: Certain events.
JA: No, only your lovely invitation through, well Posy —
CB: Yes.
JA: Organised that.
CB: Did she?
JA: So, that was great. Yes. That was great.
CB: The Aircrew Association.
JA: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
JA: But, no. No. It’s all a long time ago, isn’t it?
CB: Yes. It is.
JA: Yeah.
CB: But it needs recording.
JA: Yeah.
CB: Accurately. Yeah.
JA: Well, you can shorten that down.
CB: Ok.
JA: To about five minutes.
CB: Thank you very much indeed.
[recording paused]
JA: My pa was a brilliant speaker and it didn’t worry him at all making speeches to any number of people. I think the last Bomber Command reunion dinner there was something like, could it have been nine hundred people in Grosvenor House?
CB: Possibly.
JA: It was something massive.
CB: Yeah.
JA: Yeah. And he got given a little gavel by the, oh my goodness the guys in the red suits who always take charge of ceremonies and dinners for the best speaker of the year.
CB: Right.
JA: I’ve still got it in the safe.
CB: Have you really?
JA: Yes.
CB: Excellent. Yes.
JA: No. He was a great storyteller. Animal stories and things for the children and more serious things. No. He was always very interesting to listen to.
CB: That’s an interesting point. I wonder what the topic would have been for his military dinners. In other words, Air Force dinners but they weren’t just Air Force.
JA: Oh, well I mean his support and his thoughts about Bomber Command and his great admiration for the crews and everything they did was always I know deep in his thoughts and heart.
CB: Because after VE day then the government changed and what did that do for his association would you say?
JA: I think we’d gone to America by then so I don’t think it affected, affected him at all.
CB: No.
JA: No. But that really, again I have a badge that said, “I like Ike.” [laughs] So we were probably more in to American politics than —
CB: Eisenhower.
JA: English ones by then.
CB: Yes.
JA: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Dwight D Eisenhower.
JA: Yeah. Went to see him in the White House when we had tea with him. And so that was rather exciting for me.
CB: Cookies and Hershey bars.
JA: Do you know when we got to America the Hershey bars didn’t taste the same. I didn’t like them any longer. All I wanted was steak and chips with butter on both. I do remember that. That was heaven.
CB: So, by this time we’re talking about —
JA: Oh, the steak and the chips. That was when I was five or six and we were in New York setting up Safmarine and I couldn’t believe that I could actually get a hold of butter. That was the big treat. Didn’t want the ice cream. Wanted the butter.
CB: Who do you remember about rationing in Britain?
JA: I remember sitting in the back of the official car eating a whole lot of cold butter off the block of butter and it was a disaster apparently. I think it was the whole week’s butter ration [laughs] for everybody. I didn’t like eating in those days apart from butter so it didn’t worry me.
CB: And chips.
JA: Didn’t get chips during the war. No. I think the rationing was still going when we came back in the 50s. Meat. Petrol. Yeah.
CB: Till ’54. Yeah.
JA: Til ’54 yeah. No. I’m more interested in food now then I was then.
CB: Do you enjoy cooking now still?
JA: Oh yes. Luckily. I had to do quite a lot of it. Yeah.
CB: And did you induct your children in correct cooking?
JA: Oh, they’re all, particularly my son is a very good cook and very good at his, running his coffee shop and his café.
CB: Inspired by his grandfather.
JA: Probably, yes. Very keen on his grandfather. They all were.
CB: So, there was a good relationship there.
JA: Oh, very much so. Yeah. And we went down there at weekends and holidays to Goring and he cooked for them. Complained he was nothing but a short order chef because they all wanted different things. He kept going until he was nearly ninety cooking.
CB: Did he really?
JA: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Ninety.
JA: Ignored everything the doctors told him and cooked happily away. Lots of butter and meat and delicious things.
CB: Yes. All the things that are really good for you.
JA: He did quit smoking sixty Camels a day which he smoked during the war when we got to New York. He was told by a heart specialist that he’d better stop so he did. Being strong minded he stopped dead. Never smoked again.
CB: American doctor.
JA: Yes. We were in New York.
CB: Yes.
JA: I think he took a turn for the worse and was told to stop smoking so he did. My mum couldn’t.
CB: Did she —
JA: I think he had one [unclear] on Christmas day after that as a sort of celebration. I think they came out of the same packet so eventually he pronounced them disgusting.
CB: [unclear]
JA: And threw away the pocket. Yes. No. No. He was great.
CB: Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: I see on the mantel piece there’s a V&A card. What do you do with the V&A?
JA: Oh, I’m in the V&A on Mondays. I do, I’m on the Information Desk and it’s a great museum. We’ve got a great new director and I enjoy that very much.
CB: How often do the exhibitions, well how often do the exhibits change?
JA: Oh, that varies. There’s usually one or two main ones on at a time. At the moment we’ve got Pink Floyd coming on.
CB: Just right.
JA: Yeah. Balenciaga is the next one, I think.
CB: Right.
JA: No. It’s, it’s a great place and Tristram Hunt was the Labour MP in Stoke.
CB: Yes.
JA: And he’s fantastic.
CB: Is he?
JA: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Good with people.
JA: They all feel he’s really part of the team. And —
CB: That’s his real interest.
JA: Yeah.
[recording paused]
JA: That’s why I —
CB: Rightly or wrongly your father is well known in the context of Dresden and the bombing of it.
JA: Yes.
CB: How did you appreciate that?
JA: Well, I do remember him saying that I think he didn’t want to bomb it at all. It was too far away was one of the main things. But what people don’t realise is he did what he was told to do. Depending on the weather and what was on the list he had to send the boys off to go and do it and it wasn’t the final choice of where, I suppose but it was on the list, you know. I don’t suppose he enjoyed it any more than anybody else.
CB: It's, it’s a —
JA: He did what he was told.
CB: Yes. It’s a bone of contention in many ways from all sorts of aspects but to what extent do you rub against that, up against that with the V&A?
JA: Not at all. Never mentioned. And I didn’t mention it to the last director either.
CB: Right.
JA: You’d best not.
CB: The reason I ask is because there is a Dresden Society which is active in a variety of ways and is to do with the rebuilding of Dresden.
JA: Probably is.
CB: In an, an architectural context.
JA: Yeah.
CB: Apart from other things, and I just wondered whether you got involved in that in any way.
JA: No. No. I mean, I really haven’t been involved in anything to do with war. Bomber Command since the war. I think I was protected from it during the war and it continued from there
CB: Sure.
JA: And so I can’t fill you in on any more. But I know the V&A there’s a few holes in the wall that the Germans left. They’re still in Exhibition Road. I notice they’re still there although they’ve redone that wall. No, the V&A doesn’t.
CB: There isn’t enough money to cover all repairs in these things.
JA: Probably not. No. There’s a great new extension that’s up there about to open. Do you know the V&A?
CB: Haven’t been for ages.
JA: Sorry, that’s the one. No, it’s great.
CB: And —
JA: It’s a delightful museum.
CB: They run a special briefing for you on the desk beforehand, do they? So, that everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet at the V&A.
JA: Oh yes. We have so many emails. So many that we don’t really get around to reading them all. No. I think there are big changes now. It’s getting more and more efficient in that way. My only worry is that it’s more and more based on the computer which I’m not very speedy at operating and so they probably have younger people taking over from us old folk quite soon.
CB: What sort of age range do you have of the public coming in?
JA: Oh, everything. Every age. And I, they are encouraging a lot of children to come in. There are lots of activities at the weekends and holidays which is great.
CB: Yeah.
JA: No, it’s a great museum.
CB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jacqueline Assheton
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAsshetonJJ170510, PAsshetonJJ1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Second generation
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
South Africa
United States
Germany--Dresden
New York (State)--New York
South Africa--Cape Town
Washington (D.C.)
New York (State)
Description
An account of the resource
Jacqueline Assheton discusses her father's career in the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Air Force and his post war work establishing Safmarine shipping line and his friendship with Jan Christiaan Smuts. Her father did not talk about his wartime career, but enjoyed cooking. He enjoyed talking to Bomber Command veterans and wanted them to have more recognition for their role during the war. She discusses her role as a volunteer with the Victoria and Albert Museum.
Language
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eng
Format
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00:28:13 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
memorial
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/327/3486/AShuttleworthHJ151021.1.mp3
1e229b0a918cfe3b6d74219097f584c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/327/3486/PShuttleworthJ1501.1.jpg
59a7d9a38c1dae94a5276abcaff86f0f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Shuttleworth, Joe
Hugh Joseph Shuttleworth
Hugh J Shuttleworth
Hugh Shuttleworth
H J Shuttleworth
H Shuttleworth
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Hugh Joseph "Joe" Shuttleworth.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Shuttleworth, J
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive is with Joe Shuttleworth. A 50 Squadron rear gunner. The interview is taking place in Surrey Hills which is a suburb of Melbourne. It is the 21st of October 2015. My name’s Adam Purcell. So, I think we’ll start, if you don’t mind Joe with can you tell me something of your early life, growing up? What you did before the war.
JS: Well I grew up and born in Brisbane and had a pretty charmed life. Went to a state school. Wasn’t much but was good at ball games and I enjoyed life with my mother and father. Father had a job whereas, you know in the Depression years in the 1930s times were pretty rough really. I remember kids taking food out of rubbish bins at school. That didn’t ever happen to me. My mother and father came from Victoria and they moved up to Queensland at some point about 1920/21. And they came. Big families. And I had the opportunity of being sent down to, to Melbourne when I was ten and again when I was fourteen and caught up with my, my relatives on both my mother’s side and father’s side. And after a long time my mother and father agreed to, that I join the air force. So I went to the air force place and I was accepted to air crew. And that was February 1941. That was before the Japanese war but I wasn’t called in for a uniform until May of 1942. By that time the Japanese were well advanced in the, in Northern Australia. I was at 3 ITS. The Initial Training School that was based at Sandgate and the waterfront was just outside, you know. Do you know? You know Brisbane I suppose?
AP: I don’t. I don’t know it very well but —
JS: Do you know Sandgate then?
AP: No. I don’t actually.
JS: The water was just outside the area there. There I was told I wasn’t accepted to go in aircrew because I had an eye deficiency. I wasn’t smart enough to be accepted as a navigator. They were the boys with all the brains. So I enlisted as a wireless operator/ gunner and went to Maryborough where I was there for about seven months. Whilst there I got the mumps and I was in the, in the hospital at the camp for a few days and then I went down to a convalescent place nearby. Spent a couple of very enjoyable weeks there. Life in Maryborough was, was pretty good and we stayed in huts of about forty blokes in there. Food was pretty good. I palled up with a particular bloke who came from Bundaberg. He had a brother that was killed in the early stages of the war. And we saw a bit of Bundaberg, went down to the various beaches on the back of his motorbike. Then after Maryborough went down to Evans Head to a, to a gunnery school and did a bit of flying there. We had Fairey Battles aircraft pulling a drogue and we’d have a pretty, what do they call it, a go gun to shoot at the drogue. About 5 o’clock everybody was saying to me go down to the, to the beach. Occasionally I went to Lismore for the weekend and I stayed at a hotel there. Was presented with the, with the wings and went back to, to Brisbane. Stayed around on, on leave there for a few weeks. The air force then sent us down to Melbourne. We, I was able to get caught up, caught up with my relatives. Uncles and aunts on both side. Saw my grandmother who died when I was overseas. And then, surprisingly the air force decided to send us back to Brisbane. We sailed from Brisbane in about May of ’42. Went down to the wharf and got on to a ship. A Dutch ship. The [pause] What was its name? Anyways, under, under American command. We had bunks down in the holds of the ship. It was, the air was pretty putrid there. I elected to sleep out most nights on the, on the deck. Sometimes I got a bit wet but just a light shower. Life was pretty good. There was lots of good reading material there. Particularly a publication, a Saturday Morning Post, err Saturday Evening Post. But it ceased publication but I read a lot about American life. We had nineteen days on the, on the Pacific. Didn’t see another ship. Didn’t see any land at all. But it was a very enjoyable nineteen days. The weather was pretty good the last couple of days going into San Francisco. In San Francisco it got a bit rough but not too bad. Went in under the Golden Gate Bridge and the ship docked just in the bayside outside Alcatraz at the, the big prison there. After about a day and a half we went across to, to Oakland. Got on a, sent on a train and we went on the train — spent about four and a half days on the train going across America. Went up through Sacramento and that’s where I saw my first snow. I hadn’t seen snow in my life because my previous trips to Melbourne were in the summertime. It was. There was no, no snow up there [unclear]. And we went to, we sat up during the daylight hours and there’d be an American negro putting down the beds that we could sleep on at night. But it was very interesting going across America, seeing. I recall going across on the boat — we didn’t have any ice cream and I think I had the best ice cream in my life at Salt Lake City early one morning. Bought a, bought a packet. It was great. We continued on the train across the, across the Mississippi which the negro, the negro fellow pointed out to us and went outside to a place called Taunton which was outside Boston and there we had some leave. Got down to New York. Saw The Rockets. They were a dancing team. Also, the Rockefeller Centre which is an ice rink there. Lots of American people skating around on, on ice. Went down to Philadelphia to see a, the father, I previously worked in Brisbane at the SKF Bearing Company and an American GI, I believe went in there to enjoy himself about his father being employed at the SKF Bearing Company in Philadelphia. So, I went down there, introduced myself and they looked after me very well. Went back to Boston. We used to get leave in the, during the day. Went down to, to Rhode Island. And life was, was pretty good really. Then we went down to New York. Got aboard the, the Queen Elizabeth and at that time in the next berth was the Queen Mary and alongside again on an adjoining wharf was the Normandie, the French ship which was sunk there — caught fire and they pumped so much water I think it was always suspected it was a, as a ploy really because the Normandie would have been a great asset to the allies ferrying troops to and from Europe. There was only about two hundred Australians there. We were selected to do anti-craft, anti-aircraft watch on the, on the ship. And that was a bit, a bit of a thrill for a twenty year lad on the QE. Was it just the Queen Elizabeth? The QE1 it was subsequently called. Spent about four and a half days getting across the Atlantic. Went in to Scotland to, to Greenock. Stayed there on the ship for about a day and a half and then got on a train and sent down to Brighton. And one, one evening I was out on the, doing the anti-aircraft watch and a Sunderland circled around and it was pretty atrocious weather and I thought not Coastal Command. It’s not for me. I’ll take my risk on Bomber Command. So, after a few weeks in, in Brighton I was sent to 29 OTU at Bruntingthorpe which is now still an operating airfield. The equivalent of something like Moorabbin. It’s not, not an RAF station. But Bruntingthorpe initially was pretty much lectures and the operation of turrets and I did reasonably well on that. I was selected by a flight lieutenant, a Scotsman from Dunoon in Scotland and he, he thought I had potential evidently. There was another chap, Bill Bottrell. He was an Irishman and he had an Irish wireless operator and they were very keen for me to join their crew but I didn’t do so. But fortunately, or unfortunately they were all subsequently killed. At the OTU we lost two aircraft. One disappeared off the Wales Coast and another coming back from dropping pamphlets over France crashed. There was an Australian air gunner, rear gunner, he died. And the only person who got out of it, a chap named Terry Wilder who I subsequently met and I’ll refer to him later. The flying was at an subsidiary airfield Cresswell. And on OT, on Wellingtons, which were pretty well clapped out, one night we were doing circuits and bumps as I used to call them. Just circling around. Mainly to get the pilot practising in flying the Wellington. Circuits and landings and take offs. But one night when we were just about on air speed of about a hundred, a hundred kilometers an hour got a tyre burst and the aircraft crashed and slewed around. We all walked out of it unscathed but the risk was that sometimes in those circumstances if it caught fire because the Wellington was only fabric covered. Then whilst at Bruntingthorpe the adjoining village was at Lutterworth and there was a bit of a fair there one night and I was walking around and girls, two girls came up and one girl, Joyce Barry asked me did I have any change which I was able to oblige but I palled up with the other girl Freda who I subsequently married. We, we spent a lot of, a bit of time together. I was, after leaving Bruntingthorpe, I went up to Bitteswell and converted there to four-engined aircraft. Particularly the Lancaster. What’s so interesting in my father’s era pretty well they were all smokers but in our crew, there was only two smokers — the wireless operator and the top gunner. And that was pretty representative of the situation, I think, everywhere really. So, it’s the attitude to smoking has changed so much over the years. At, at Bitteswell we could, I was sent up to Skellingthorpe to do fighter affiliation work. We had Australians flying Tomahawks and, you know they were just making a simulated attacks on the aircraft and there would be a camera so that it would record what you did and the circumstances. We also changed the wireless operators at Bitteswell but I was up at Skellingthorpe so I don’t know really what happened. I wasn’t there to. Then we went to Morton Hall. To a commando school really. Jumping over fences and getting through wires etcetera. Unfortunately, I sprained my ankle on the second day so I was, did very little. I often thought subsequently that Morton Hall could have been the Command Centre for 5 Group but I, I don’t know whether that was right or not. Also, when we were at Bruntingthorpe we could hear engines running and just talked about, you know a place down the road running engines. We subsequently found that it was Frank Whittle, subsequently Sir Frank Whittle developing the jet engine. What happened then? I think we went to, posted to Skellingthorpe. Now, one thing about Bitteswell, that was a permanent RAF station and the accommodation was in brick buildings whereas at Skellingthorpe it was a wartime aerodrome. Lived in what we called Nissen huts — accommodation for about ten crew. And there would be a stove in the centre of the hut where we burned coke to keep us warm in the, in the cooler times. Also, before we went to Skellingthorpe went to Syerston. That was another permanent RAF station where the accommodation was in brick buildings. Actually, I saw my first snow drop at Syerston. That was the first I’d seen in England. Life on the, on the squadron, 50 Squadron and the flight insignia on the aircraft was VN and I’ve got a plate inside where that, the N is showing. We tended to go up to the flight office about 9 o’clock in the morning to see whether there was a war on. If there wasn’t we’d go out to the aircraft and have a mess around. Have practice of getting out of an aircraft into a dinghy. The food was pretty, pretty reasonable. It was certainly the best available in England. Sausages were mainly a lot of bread. I often thought I wouldn’t eat baked beans again but I quite like them now and again. But certainly, food at the squadron was the best available in England on the operations. If the war was on we were given an evening meal and briefed as to where the aircraft, where the target would be. The wing commander would say where, where the target was that night. We’d see the target. The flights into Europe, we did a lot of trips to Berlin and they were generally about ten hours. Sometimes you went in, flew over France. Other times it would be over north, over Denmark and into Berlin that way.
Other: Do you want a drink of water, dad?
JS: Pardon?
Other: Would you like a drink of water?
JS: No thanks. No. Yeah, perhaps so.
[pause]
JS: The great losses of aircraft at that time — we would be sending out about seven hundred and fifty aircraft and we’d generally lose about fifty. So, on a tour of thirty, statistically it’s impossible to get through a tour but some, some did.
AP: What time was this?
JS: Pardon?
AP: What time was it? What? Or when was it?
JS: We tended to, to go off just before dark. About an hour, this is English time. I suppose it would be about 8 o’clock really because there was double daylight saving over there then. So it was, you know normally light till about ten and we’d probably take off about eight and get back about ten, ten hours later. That was coming back after a flight. The, all the, the squadron leader and the wing commander and sometimes the air commodore would be there to greet you. Hot, hot chocolate drink to drink. It was a bit hard at times, you know. It would come back to you, you had to go to bed but sometimes representatives of other crews didn’t survive. On one occasion we did three, three flights in and, then in four days we did two daylights. Take off at daylight. Another one we turned, turned up about midnight. Came back in the light and flew over England. And I recall one particular occasion coming back over the south coast of England, seeing the white cliffs of Dover and up through England. I often thought that, you know life was pretty great really. What else? When I was at Skellingthorpe I used to go down and see Freda, my wife and often hitch-hiked back and often stood outside the Trent Bridge Cricket Ground waiting for a lift back to Skellingthorpe which is just outside Lincoln. Eventually, one night coming back there was a flash about 11 o’clock high and I felt immediate pain in this eye. I think one of the crew dragged me out of the turret. We got back to, to England and went to, to hospital at Rauceby which was outside Grantham. And there they gave me the decision that they couldn’t do anything about the eye. It would have to come out because the piece of metal there was, was too big. And then after about, oh about a month in hospital there I went up to Hoylake which is outside Liverpool. The RAF had taken it over as a convalescent. It was a public school and they’d taken it over as a reception recuperation place for aircrew personnel and I had a few months there. Quite, you know, life was good. Used to have various exercises to keep us, keep us young and fit. One particular bloke that I met at Rauceby, an RAAF bloke, an RAAF bloke he came from Barcaldine in Queensland. He’d married one of the, the nurses at the hospital. A bloke named Templeton. I guess he came, eventually came back to Australia. The, after Hoylake I went back to, to Brighton and they asked me did I, they told me I was declared unfit for further flying. They asked me did I want to go up to Kodak House and stay in a clerical position or come back to Australia. And I said, ‘No. I’m going back to Australia,’ but I went up to Kodak House and did clerical duties there for a couple of months. That was, that was alright. Eventually they sent, took me back to Brighton and I waited then a decision on, on going home to Australia. Whilst in London I had the husband of a cousin of mine on my mother’s side who had been in the Royal Navy since about fourteen or fifteen years of age. He was a lieutenant there and I saw quite a bit of Keith. Also, Australia House they had a Boomerang Club where they used to serve luncheons there. It was all done in a voluntary capacity. A lot of Australians would go there and meet fellows that we’d met at various times at our training. Eventually the word came. Get on a train. Went back to Greenock. Back on the Queen Elizabeth. Back to New York. By that time there were very few Australians there. Only, only about a hundred of us and there was no, a few Americans going back after being injured in various parts of the UK. Well, whilst at Hoylake we went down to the luncheon. The BBC news came on and announced D-day. That was a great thrill. It was eventually on. My brother in law, Fred is my sister’s husband, he was in the, in the army and you know he got out at Dunkirk. Went around to North Africa. Involved in the, in to Sicily and in to Italy. Back to England and then went into Europe about two, about two days after D-day. So, they certainly had a tough, tough life. One of the things at the RAF stations we used to have sheets on our beds. That’s something that we didn’t ever have in Australia but we had lovely blankets and the idea was to hang onto your Australian blankets because they were real wool and warm whereas the English blankets tended to be a bit feltish. At [pause] New York we, we had constant leave. Went down to one of the United Services Club and they invited me to go down and meet a couple of girls there, you know. Palled up with one girl. Went out with her and she took me home to a place on Great Neck and introduced me to her sister and her father who was involved in the forestry business and, yes they looked after me very well. Took me to a nightclub. Café society. And I got a signature of Joe, Joe Lewis — the American world champion boxer. Had quite a number of other signatures in that, in that RAAF diary but it’s disappeared like a lot of other things. Back on the train to San Francisco. This time we went on a more southerly route in those rather poorer areas of America. Whereas the country up north around Denver, you know was lovely and prosperous but the southern parts looked, looked pretty tough. Went to a staging camp, Petersburg. Was there for about a fortnight. American people often took us for drives around the country. Eventually we went on to a ship, the Monterey. One of the American liners. Went to, sailed it across. The ship was full of Americans going out to the Pacific war, warfare. Sailed into Finschhafen, saw my first American Duck in the water there. Spent a couple of days there. Then went up to Hollandia, changed ship there on the Swansea and that came down to Oro Bay and Milne Bay and back to Brisbane. That’s about it.
AP: That was pretty well your story. Well, we may as well go, have a look at some of the things in a bit more detail if you don’t mind.
JS: Yeah.
AP: I love it. I ask one question and thirty minutes later we, we’re just about finished. We’re not really. Where were you when you heard that war was declared? And how old were you and what did you think at the time?
JS: I was [pause] When the Japanese invaded or are you talking —
AP: Well, right back at the beginning. 1939.
JS: Oh yes. Yes. I remember. I was working then at the SKF Bearing Company in Brisbane and a couple of months after the war started it was obvious we wouldn’t be able to get ball bearings and roller bearings from Europe where most of it was coming from. Not a lot from Sweden. So, the boss said to me, ‘Well Joe. Sorry.’ But I was a stock clerk there and quite an interesting job. Enjoyed it. So, I was able to get a job at a warehouse in Brisbane — Hoffman’s and Company who sold supplies to, to the small shops in those days. Of course, there was small shops over the Brisbane area and over the Queensland area. And I was there until I was, went into the air force then in, in May of ’42. One thing too that I may, should have mentioned. At Sandgate we were, just before lunch, there was an American Airacobra who flew around the station. But he got too low. Dipped his wing in the water and crashed. And in those days I was pretty, pretty fit so I and a few others swam out but he was dead unfortunately. Whilst I didn’t see it that same afternoon another one crashed out, out into the sea.
AP: You were on the Reserve. The Air Force Reserve for a fair time, I think. You said it was.
JS: Yeah.
AP: It was almost a year.
JS: From February. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. What, did the air force give you anything to do in that time?
JS: Yes.
AP: Or did you just carry on?
JS: We attended educational classes in airmanship and particularly Morse code which I never really ever mastered well. Formed quite a few friendships of fellows there. In Brisbane a number of fellows who, who went to, to England there was a very high casualty list amongst them. Fellows that I went to school with, who knew in various parts, you know, didn’t come back. But I, when I was discharged at the [pause] just after the world war, the Japanese capitulated, I joined Veterans Affairs and worked at Veterans Affairs for a couple off months off forty years. First in their administrative offices in Brisbane. In Perry House. I was there for a few years. Then I went out to the Greenslopes Hospital. Was there until 1959 when they, for the last six months I went to Kenmore which was a TB sanitorium out [pause] out Lone Pine way. Out that direction. And then in 1960 I applied for positions. The blokes ahead of me weren’t going to move from Brisbane. My father had died. My mother was living with us and we were in a, built a home in Corinda in Brisbane and we’d only two bedrooms. My mother was in the lounge and she had relatives in Melbourne of course so I applied for a job in Melbourne. Eventually went to, to Heidelberg and I was there most of the time in Heidelberg. My last job there was director of administration which was an exceedingly interesting job. You know, in charge of the domestic services, food services, ordinary stores and administrative people. And I had a lot of liaising with the, the medical people and specialist departments like occupational therapy, physiotherapy. Yeah.
AP: So that’s the repatriation hospital at Heidelberg.
JS: Heidelberg. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. Ok.
JS: Yeah.
AP: Just for context because this is going to the UK.
JS: Yeah.
AP: Why did you pick the air force?
JS: I had a fear of fighting in the trenches of France.
AP: Did you have any —
JS: And I was always interested. We lived in, in Sherwood in Corinda and it wasn’t so many miles across to the Archerfield Aerodrome. And I often used to cycle out or being taken out by somebody to see visiting aircraft. Had a few joy flights out that way. My father, airlines had prospered, it meant that caught an aircraft, a Stinson to Townsville and then changed aircraft. He was going to Cairns and he got into a Dragon Rapide. Only a little two-engined aircraft. And going out the weather closed in. They landed on the beach. Stayed there for a couple of hours. The pilot said, ‘We’ve got to get out the tide’s coming in too quickly.’ So, they went on to Cairns. Now, fancy that happening that way.
AP: Now [laughs] yeah. It’s a bit different. I was going to ask you something about that. Alright. The first time you went in an aeroplane. Apart from those joy flights. When you were in the air force tell me about your first flight if you can remember it.
JS: At Maryborough. That was my first flight.
AP: What, what did you think of it?
JS: They were pretty basic aircraft but they were pretty good in those days.
AP: That was a Battle?
JS: They had wireless sets and you’d practice your Morse code and verbal communication. Yeah.
AP: Very good. You’ve told me how you got to the UK. That’s very good. When, what [pause] that was the first time you went overseas?
JS: Pardon?
AP: That was the first time you went overseas?
JS: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. What did you think of wartime England? First. First thoughts on arrival.
JS: Oh, lovely country. Lots of beautiful girls. Lots of warm beer. It was pretty hard to get cold beer in those days. The countryside was absolutely beautiful.
AP: Alright. That leads on to the next question, I guess. The beer question. What did you do to relax when you weren’t on duty?
JS: Where?
AP: What did you do to relax when you were not on duty?
JS: Where?
AP: Ah, well anywhere. On the squadron. On OTU. That sort of thing. When you were on leave. Or not even on leave.
JS: Very often I was going to and from Lutterworth to see my wife.
AP: And you actually got married in England.
JS: Yes.
AP: Yeah. That’s —
JS: Got married on the 30th of December 1943.
AP: Tell me about a wartime wedding.
JS: It was at Bardon Hill just outside Coalville. We toasted with a bottle of Australian wine. How it happened to be there I’m not quite sure but it was there. I realised, you know, that people in England had it pretty tough in comparison to, to life in the Australian household. You know they didn’t have a bathroom. They’d have a tub which, which you’d have a wash in that. Whereas of course in Australia, you know I grew up in a house, a timber house on stilts. Had a copper down, down under the house where you washed your clothes. But if you wanted a hot bath you had to bucket water up in to the bathroom. I remember a chip heater being installed to heat the water in the bath. That was a great advantage. Subsequently of course before the war it was put in an electrical system [pause] And domestic appliances. In those days there was no dishwashers, vacuum cleaners or anything like that. Cleaning the floors was done by a broom or down with a cloth. Hand and knees. I remember my mother, you know washing the floor and polishing the floor which was in those days was linoleum. Whereas these days we’ve got all these modern cons and every, and of course, you know people get fairly gigantic loans to get into houses but you know they, they want and expect everything at the same time. All of those modern cons. Two cars in the family which is pretty well a necessity these days.
AP: Different, different times I think, Joe. Different times.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Alright. We might, might talk a bit about, well ok the aircraft. The Lancaster. What did you think the first time you saw a Lancaster?
JS: Yeah. Well it was, was built to carry bombs. Pretty light construction really. I saw the one earlier this year. Went up to the War Memorial in Canberra. And whilst we, we thought it was huge back in 1943 you know, they’re pretty tiny now. And one of the, one of the things that the RAF didn’t miss on. You know, you often thought that the aircraft would be attacking you in to the, in to the turret but what was happening would be German aircraft perhaps a thousand feet down below you and what they didn’t know — the Germans had a gun pointing up like that and of course the aircraft was sending out a certain amount of exhaust fumes so we were sitting ducks to the German fighter pilots. And the RAF didn’t ever wake up to the fact that this was what was happening.
AP: Did, did the crews themselves have some sort of an idea of that? Or —
JS: No.
AP: There was just no, no one had, they just disappeared.
JS: It didn’t seem to get through to anybody.
AP: No one worked it out. What’s a turret look like when you’re in it? You’re sitting in your turret. What’s in front of you? What’s beside you?
JS: There was, in a Wellington it was two guns — 303s. And in the Lancasters four. Four guns. The ammunition. Every, about every tenth shell would be a tracer so that you could see it in the sky. I didn’t ever fire a gun at a fighter pilot. A fighter. I didn’t see one. And of course, our gunnery was 303s whereas the English, the German fighter pilots certainly .5 or 20mm.
AP: Yeah. There was a bit of an unfair fight, I think.
JS: Yes. Yeah. The, the Halifax, I didn’t ever have a flight on it. I was very impressed with the turret in the Halifax. A Boulton Paul whereas it was a Fraser Nash in the Lancaster. And I’ve been told that they were easier to get out of if there was an emergency.
AP: I’ve heard of that sort of thing. That kind of declares my next question null and void. But I suppose you did fighter affiliation. What’s, what’s the drill when you, if you were to spot a night fighter somewhere —
JS: Yes.
AP: What happens next? What’s the drill?
JS: You’d do a corkscrew. Down. Down to port or to starboard. So, go down and up, down and up again to get out. That was a case of being attacked from the rear by an aircraft. Now that didn’t ever happen to me and I don’t think it happened to too many.
AP: What was a corkscrew like in a turret?
JS: It was up and down, you know. That wasn’t, that wasn’t too bad you know. In the turret of course, we had heated, heated suits on. One night coming back across Denmark mine petered out and I had a fairly cold trip back. But I survived alright [laughs] the temperature outside me would be down. Down to about fifty degrees centigrade. Centigrade.
AP: What, what was your evacuation drill if you had to leave an aircraft in a hurry? What would you have done as the rear gunner in a Lancaster?
JS: Well, you had to get around, open the doors, grab your parachute. The parachute wasn’t in the turret. It was inside the aircraft. Grab the turret and either get it back and jump out of the, from the turret or get out through the main door. And the idea was to roll over so that you didn’t get hit by the tail fin.
AP: It sounds like it would take a fair bit of time that you probably might not have had.
JS: Yeah. And if you were doing it at say eighteen thousand, you know we would be bombing at about twenty one thousand. You know. You know, coming down all of a sudden. Pretty hard getting out I’d imagine.
AP: How many, how many trips did you actually do?
JS: Twenty five.
AP: Twenty five. And it was the twenty fifth trip which you were injured.
JS: Twenty fifth I met my Waterloo.
AP: Do you know what it actually was that hit you? You said you never saw a fighter.
JS: No. I suspect it was — of course the Germans were sending out anti-aircraft fire from the ground. But I strongly suspect it was one of these, these fighters that were down below, below me and sent up a shell hoping to knock out the aircraft. Perhaps his shot wasn’t all that good and hit the turret.
AP: Was that the only damage to the aircraft that you know of?
JS: Yes.
AP: Yeah. So, and you were the only one injured.
JS: Yeah.
AP: Luck of the draw isn’t it?
JS: Yeah. Luck of the draw.
AP: Yeah. Very much so. Do any of your other operations stand out in your memory at all? Any, any other interesting ones?
JS: There was one particular night there was a bit of a disagreement between the navigator and the pilot as the track which we should go back on and we wandered over, over France and got coned by about a half a dozen searchlights. We thought we were a bit lucky to get out of that and didn’t deserve to get out of it really. Another night, taking off, the aircraft swung across to starboard and pretty much out of the control of the pilot really. Scooped off the runway. Got up alright but was a bit dicey there for a few minutes. You know there was a tremendous amount of people killed over there as a result of sheer accidents really. You know there was six hundred and fifty two thousand killed in Bomber Command and a very high percentage of those were due to accidents and not involving operations.
AP: Yeah. It was a large, it was, was a certainly a large —
JS: Yeah.
AP: Before they even got on to a squadron let alone —
JS: Yeah.
AP: Yeah.
JS: There was about four hundred plus or minus a few Australians killed over in, in Europe.
AP: Yeah. There were quite a few.
JS: Yeah.
AP: Oh, Morton Hall. I was going to ask you about that. My great, this is the personal bit for the tape. My great uncle, so my Bomber Command connection spent some time at Morton Hall as well.
JS: Yes.
AP: It’s written in the back of his logbook. I don’t know what he did there.
JS: No.
AP: So, if you could expand a little bit on that that would be really cool.
JS: Just a commando school to make us physically fit. It was, you know, it was important to be fit for flying. It was also if you happened to parachute down into Europe to try and escape. You know. It was good fun and I enjoyed it very much until the second day I sprained my ankle.
AP: That was the end of that.
JS: Harris, the, in charge of Bomber Command. We didn’t ever see him at the airfields. We used to refer to him as Butcher Harris.
AP: London is, is something that comes up often in these interviews. Aircrew sort of seemed to gravitate to London on leave or as they were passing through on the way to other things. Obviously, you spent a little bit more time there than most at Kodak House.
JS: Yes.
AP: But I’m interested in perhaps in what, what sort of things you did in London. What did you see? What did you do? When you weren’t, when you weren’t necessarily at work.
JS: Well I used to see my cousin a fair amount. We’d often go out for a few drinks. He knew the London area pretty well. He’d been there since well before the war. Knew a place down near Victoria, Victoria Street station where we could get some steak. That was a pretty important factor over there. We weren’t great drinkers. I was never a great drinker, and I wasn’t a smoker.
AP: That’s, yeah that’s it’s something that a lot of people seemed to meet friends in London as well.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: The Boomerang Club for example.
JS: Yeah.
AP: There was a signing in book or something. You’d look through and go, ‘Oh, I know him.’
JS: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. Very good. I guess we’re getting pretty close to the end of my list of questions. You said you weren’t a great drinker. Did you spend any time in the local pub near Skellingthorpe? What was it called? And what happened?
JS: No. We spent more, more time in the local pub at Lutterworth drinking some of the warm beer. Looking at the fire. There was always a fireplace so, and there was always somebody who could play a piano, have a sing song and very enjoyable nights.
AP: Excellent. Piano is something you don’t get very often these days either.
JS: Yeah.
AP: Alright. I guess we’ll jump down towards the end now. You’ve told me what you did in civilian life. How is, how do you think Bomber Command is remembered and what sort of legacy do you think?
JS: Well, unfortunately, of course they got a bad name on the, on that last raid to Dresden. A lot of people think that that was unnecessary. I think it was probably at the request, to some degree by the Russians and of course not only did the RAF operate at Dresden the Americans sent daylight aircraft over there. And that seems to be, seemed to be forgotten. You know, Harris after the war he didn’t get any, any knighthood. He went back to South Africa, I think. I’ve got an idea he went to Kenya where he’d come from originally.
AP: So, for, how do you remember your time in Bomber Command. What did you get out of it, I suppose?
JS: A great experience. Great experience. I had a world’s trip.
AP: I guess that’s —
JS: A selfish, selfish attitude but that’s what it was.
AP: That’s —
JS: I, you know, saw places. I’ve never been back to England. I haven’t been outside of Australia at all.
AP: That was, that was your one opportunity and you grabbed it.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Very much so. Well, I guess that’s, that’s really all I’ve got for you.
JS: Yeah.
AP: So, thank you very much Joe.
JS: That’s alright.
AP: It’s been a pleasure.
JS: How much do I owe you?
AP: [laughs] Not at all.
[recording paused]
JS: Control at the aerodromes were girls.
AP: Ah yes.
JS: Talk you in. Sometimes you’d come back after operation — you might be ten or fifteen thousand feet and you’d come down on five hundred feet levels.
AP: Someone would have to control that.
JS: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. Do you, do you remember much about the process of arriving back at the base?
JS: Well I was, you know we were treated like heroes when you came back. As I’ve said before the station commander and the wing commander if he, sometimes he’d be on operations but generally he wasn’t. They were there to, to greet you. And sometimes the commodore within 5 Group was 54 base and that covered Skellingthorpe, Bardney, number 9 Squadron. And 463 and 467 at Waddington. It was 54 base and there would be an air commodore in charge of that and sometimes he’d be there to, to greet you.
AP: That’s pretty [pause] yeah. Excellent so , ok why not keep going? When you, when you arrived back you come back to dispersal, the engines shut down. What do you feel? What do you think?
JS: Relief. It was nice to get out. Out of that aircraft. Get some of that flying gear off. You know these Taylor suite. These great huge yellow heated suits. Get that off and out of uniform would have underclothing. Cotton. Warm underclothing. Long strides and singlets. So, you liked to get that out of the aircraft. Outer garment off. It was a relief of that’s another one towards the twenty five, from the thirty. They didn’t, we’d hoped to, our aim was to complete the thirty and then go to Pathfinders. Kind of liked an eagle on my uniform but I didn’t.
AP: Did the rest of your crew go on?
JS: No. No. They were all, all killed.
AP: Oh really?
JS: They went on flying and were killed.
AP: So you, I guess you got away with it didn’t you?
JS: Yes. Yes, I was one of the lucky ones.
AP: Yeah very much so. What was, what actually was the target that night and when, what night was it. Can you remember?
JS: No.
AP: No. Sorry. That you were. That you were — sorry.
JS: Yeah. Well I was in hospital.
AP: Sorry.
JS: Yeah.
AP: The night that you were injured what was that?
JS: Berlin.
AP: Berlin. On which trip? What night? Do you know what the date was?
JS: 25th .
AP: Of?
JS: ’43. No. No ’44. ’44.
AP: ’44. So, March. Was that March?
JS: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. Ok.
JS: Yeah.
AP: Ok. My great uncle was on that trip as well.
JS: Yeah. Of course, as you know they had some disastrous trips. Leipzig, they lost seventy nine and about ninety six, ninety seven at Nuremberg.
AP: Yeah. They were all in, in that area.
JS: Yeah.
AP: And there was a Munich trip in there as well.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: And there was a whole bunch. Yeah. That was a particularly bad time to be operating actually.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. Wow. That’s, you were very lucky then.
JS: Yeah.
AP: To be taken off ops then.
JS: Of course, the Americans saved us really with their capacity. The manpower and their capacity to build ships and provide aircraft. I don’t think England would have been able to survive without American help. If the Japanese hadn’t have come in I think ultimately Hitler would have been, invaded England.
AP: It could have been a very, very different war.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Yes, that —
JS: You know, the American capacity. I know was probably a stunt but they, they built one of those Liberty ships, about ten thousand tonnes in three and half days. Working twenty four hours, seven days.
AP: Craziness. Shows what wartime economies can, can achieve.
JS: Yeah.
AP: To a certain extent for unlimited. Very good. Ok. Anything else you have to add?
JS: No.
AP: Just before I turn it off again.
JS: No. That’s about it, I think.
AP: That’s about it. That’s, that’s very good actually.
JS: Yeah.
AP: That’s some very good stuff there.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AShuttleworthHJ151021, PShuttleworthJ1501
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Joe Shuttleworth
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:03:05 audio recording
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2015-10-21
Description
An account of the resource
Joe Shuttleworth was born and raised in Brisbane but also spent a lot of time with family in the Melbourne area. He volunteered for aircrew and soon began training as a gunner. After initial training he sailed to the United States and on to the UK. While at operational training unit at RAF Bruntingthorpe he went to the local village where a chance encounter led to meeting his future wife who he married in 1943. He was posted to 50 Squadron as an air gunner and was based at RAF Skellingthorpe. On his twenty fifth operation which was to Berlin he experienced a sudden flash and a searing pain. One of the crew managed to pull him out of the turret. He was taken to hospital at RAF Rauceby where he lost his eye. The rest of his crew continued to fly but they were all killed in a later operation. Joe returned to Australia where his wife joined him a year later. He remembers his time with Bomber Command as a wonderful experience which led him to see the world. After the war Joe never left Australia again.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
New York (State)--New York
Queensland--Brisbane
Victoria--Melbourne
Germany
Germany--Heidelberg
Victoria
New York (State)
Queensland
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1943
29 OTU
50 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
crash
Lancaster
love and romance
mess
military living conditions
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bitteswell
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF hospital Rauceby
RAF Morton Hall
RAF Skellingthorpe
take-off crash
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/292/3447/PMacdonaldK1703.1.pdf
c95d205c4198d82d8852fe9584466cac
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/292/3447/AMacdonaldK170222.1.mp3
c455719386ed5595e6ad4b299a1473ab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Macdonald, Ken
Ken Macdonald
K Macdonald
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Ken Macdonald (b. 1924, 432233 Royal Australian Air Force) and a photograph.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ken Macdonald and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Macdonald, K
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean McCartney. The interviewee is Ken MacDonald. The interview is taking place at Mr MacDonald’s home in Banora Point, New South Wales on the 22nd of February 2017. Ken, let’s just start right back in June 1924. You were born in Dee Why.
KM: Dee Why. That’s right. Yes.
JM: Yes. And does that mean that you and your family lived around Dee Why and stayed around Dee Why?
KM: No.
JM: Or —
KM: My parents came out from Scotland six weeks before.
JM: Right.
KM: With five children and me on the way.
JM: Gosh. Yes.
KM: And I was born in Dee Why. Yes. Dad was a farmer in, just out of Glasgow and that’s his farm up there.
JM: Oh my goodness. Yeah.
KM: Yeah. Which is — I think it was knocked down during the war.
JM: Right. Which part? Which side of Glasgow was it?
KM: Dalmuir.
JM: Dalmuir. Which is —
KM: Yeah. Don’t ask me, you know.
JM: Oh ok. Right. Right.
KM: You’ve got the river. The river and then Dalmuir would be out somewhere.
JM: Yes. Yes.
KM: In farmland in those days. Yes. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So you never had the opportunity to go to back and see where it was?
KM: I went back to Scotland when we, during the war I went there. I never got to Dalmuir. I met my uncle. You know.
JM: Uncle.
KM: Relatives. Relatives who lived around the place.
JM: Yeah.
KM: They were farmer’s as well. Yes.
JM: Right. Ok. Well that’s all very interesting. So then did your family live at Dee Why? Or —
KM: They had a, yes we lived at Dee Why for about five or six years. They had a corner store. Something different for mum and dad, you know. It was a twenty four seven job, you know. Every day of the week and so forth. They worked very hard. From there we went to Cessnock.
JM: Right.
KM: They bought into a fish and chip shop. They’d never done that either.
JM: That’s even harder work. Yes.
KM: Yeah. In Cessnock. And the MacDonald’s Fish Shop was in the town up until about ten years ago.
JM: Gosh.
KM: It passed down through the family and then one of my nephew’s had it and he retired from it.
JM: Gosh.
KM: From there we went to Victoria Street, Potts Point. One side of the road was Woolloomooloo. The other side was Pott, was Potts Point. They had a private hotel.
JM: Right.
KM: And do you want the others? Where we went after that?
JM: Well, where, where so how long were you in —? So you would have finished your, so if it was five years you would not have actually not have started your school in Dee Why, I assume.
KM: No. I started my school at Cessnock.
JM: In Cessnock.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So did you — how long were your parents running the shop?
KM: We were there ‘til about 1934.
JM: 1934. So —
KM: Yeah. Then I went —
JM: So —
KM: To Manley for a year.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Manley. And then Darlinghurst Public.
JM: Public, yeah.
KM: Then in 1937 I went to Sydney Boy’s High.
JM: Boy’s High.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ok. Right. Yes. So at Sydney Boy’s High did you do both your intermediate and your leaving?
KM: Yeah.
JM: Right. So you finished your leaving.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: I didn’t excel but still I passed them.
JM: Well, that’s, that’s —
KM: I left school in 19 — when did the Japanese come into the war? ‘42 it would be.
JM: Well presumably —
KM: ‘37 ’38 ‘40
JM: Yeah. So you would have, you would have left —
KM: No. Forty —
JM: ’42 you would, probably you would have finished up school in ‘42.
KM: ’41.
JM: ’41.
KM: I finished school. Yes.
JM: Yeah.
KM: ’41. And then I turned eighteen on the 16th of June.
JM: June in ’42.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And that’s when you enlisted I presume.
KM: Yeah. I did my medical on the 29th of June.
JM: Right. Ok.
KM: But I wasn’t called up until the 5th of December.
JM: Right. Ok.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And —
KM: Bradfield Park.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Then to Maryborough.
JM: Yeah. Well, so you did you ITS at Bradfield Park.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Right. Ok. And —
KM: I was in 35 course at Maryborough but I had to repeat the last month.
JM: Right. Ok. I’ll come back to that. I will just backtrack for a second. When you were doing — in your youth did you help mum and dad in the chip shop? The fish and chip shop at Cessnock?.
KM: No.
JM: Or you were too young.
KM: I was too young. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: I was too young. Yeah.
JM: Because you were under ten.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Up to ten so yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: I guess that would be. Then what about the private hotel. Did you do any? Help out at all?
KM: Yeah. I learned how to iron and different things like that. Yes.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
KM: Helped as much as I could.
JM: Could. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
KM: And then —
JM: Because they had, so they would have had that all the time that you were at school then.
KM: Yeah.
JM: I would assume.
KM: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Ok. So and what —
KM: And after school I went to, I ended up going, in the last few months I was at teacher’s college.
JM: Oh ok.
KM: That was just, just to make —
JM: Between. Just between that that six months between you finished your leaving certificate and before you were old enough to enlist.
KM: Well I had, I had a job with a real estate man who was going to train me. He didn’t have any children and I think he was going to train me to sort of take over but he was killed in a car accident so that put the kibosh on that.
JM: Right.
KM: So then I went to teacher’s college.
JM: Right.
KM: Just to make sure if I was lucky enough to come home from the war I had a job to come back to.
JM: Back to.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So what sort of teacher training were you doing? Were you doing primary school?
KM: Primary school.
JM: Yeah. Right.
KM: At Sydney’s Teaching College.
JM: College. Right.
KM: I did six months there.
JM: Right. Ok.
KM: Then I went in to the Air Force. Yeah.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Did you do anything else? Did you play a lot of sport? Did you join the Air Training Corps?
KM: Oh yeah. I used to sport. I was never a champion but I got involved in everything.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Lots of team sports or —
KM: Yeah. Rugby. Rugby mainly.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Cricket. Yes. Anything that was going.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Did you ever join the Air Training Corps or anything like that?
KM: Yes. I was in the Air Training Corps.
JM: When did you join that?
KM: Oh, I was [pause] I was still at school when I joined that. That would be about 1939 or something. Yeah.
JM: Right.
KM: I was in the Air Training Corps.
JM: Right. And did you stay in the ATC through.
KM: ‘Til I joined up.
JM: ‘Til you joined up?
KM: Practically, yeah.
JM: Which means that you basically just transferred over.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Once you were eighteen I presume. So did you do any flying or anything or just theory when you were in the —?
KM: It was just theory. I learned how to send Morse, so when I went into the air force I had a background in Morse code.
JM: Morse code. Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ok so —
KM: So when I was at ITS, you know, they said, ‘Have you got any desires what you want to be?’ And I said, ‘Wireless, air gunner.’
JM: Yeah.
KM: Because I had that basic training.
JM: Training. Yeah.
KM: I didn’t think I’d be good enough to be a pilot. Yeah.
JM: Right. Ok. So you did you medical. And so then you say you did, you went to Maryborough and then did you follow straight on from Maryborough with a gunnery course at Evans Head?
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Ok. And then from there you went to, you had some leave before —
KM: I think I had a week’s leave and went to Melbourne. We left on a Saturday and arrived there on a Sunday. Straight on to a ship and sailed out on a Monday.
JM: Out of Melbourne.
KM: Out of Melbourne. Yes. On the Nieuw Amsterdam. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So that was in December.
KM: No. That was the 26th, I think, of September.
JM: September.
KM: Yeah. When we sailed.
JM: Ok. Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Yeah. Ok. And so that was September ’43 wasn’t it?
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Just pause while a little gentleman flies overhead. Mr Virgin or Mr Jetstar.
KM: Yeah. Or Tiger.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Or could be Air Asia.
JM: Yeah. Could be anyone. That’s right.
KM: We went to New Zealand from there. Then to San Francisco. We had leave in San Francisco for a few days and then went by train which was great. Got the train across to New York where we had porters on board and everything. They were great troop trains. Better than we had here in Australia. And then from New York we went —
JM: Just — you went straight through but I presume —
KM: We used to stop off at various places.
JM: Places yeah —
KM: And that. Yeah. Give you a bit of a march and — yeah.
JM: Yeah. You didn’t have a chance to look around as such.
KM: No.
JM: But if you did a bit of a march.
KM: Yeah.
JM: I guess you were out in the streets a little bit to take in the different —
KM: A bit of exercise for us.
JM: Yeah.
KM: To keep us going. Yeah.
JM: Going.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And did you form any impressions? Were you able to see different contrasts between the various places that you stopped off or you were just not really looking around that much at that stage.
KM; No. No.
JM: Yeah. Yeah. Because five days was a long time to be cooped up on the train.
KM: That’s right. Yes.
JM: Because you had probably — what? Several bunks in one area.
KM: Well we had little, we had —
JM: Cubical type things I suppose.
KM: Yes. It was like a [pause] it was just like a passenger train really.
JM: Train. Yes.
KM: And had the bunks. Tiered bunks. You know —
JM: Yeah.
KM: Which were the, they weren’t made especially for the troops. They were just —
JM: Yeah. Normal.
KM: What the passengers used to use and had the porters there to look after you. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And so you get to New York.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And you get a few days leave in New York.
KM: Yes. Yes. Yes. And we had about a week in New York.
JM: What sort of things did you get up to in New York?
KM: Oh. Normal things.
JM: Normal things. Yeah.
KM: You’re not — you couldn’t drink in a lot of places because you had to be twenty one.
JM: Yeah.
KM: That was the first thing we struck when we got off the ship in San Francisco. The first place we went to was a bar. He wasn’t going to serve us at first because he said, ‘How old are you?’ And we all — we told him.
JM: Honest.
KM: He said, ‘You’ve got to be twenty one.’ We said, ‘Oh we’ve all just turned twenty one.’ Of course we were in uniform and everything like that, you know. We were sergeants. You’d think that they would have given it to us which they did. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And people were very good. Very kind. Americans were beautiful people I thought.
JM: Yeah. So, so you had a bit of a wander around New York. Saw some — as well as going to a few bars.
KM: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
JM: And saw some of the main sights there.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: The Empire State Building. Rockefeller Centre. That’s what I can remember now.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
KM: Had a ride in a Hansom cab. Cab around, you know, horse drawn. Around Central Park with a young lady I met. And it was nice. Yeah. Course you fall in love quick quite easily You fall out twice as quick [laughs]
JM: Yeah.
KM: That’s where I first saw Danny Kaye. Do you remember Danny Kaye the actor?
JM: I do indeed remember Danny Kaye.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yes.
KM: I went to the theatre and he was on. There was a film on as well which I can’t remember what that it was. But he was on as a just doing a few acts and I thought he was tremendous. As a matter of fact I’ve sat through the film again to see him. Yes. He was a great comedian. Got lots of people. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
KM: And from then we went across to England on the Queen Elizabeth where there was about eighteen thousand troops I think on there as well.
JM: Yes.
KM: No, no escort or anything like that. Just flat out. The way to go.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And I must tell you that there was one of our, one of my mates Mick Jordan and another chap called Douglas McCartney — they ran the Crown and Anchor.
JM: Yes.
KM: Which is a gambling thing.
JM: Yes.
KM: Yeah. And took my money.
JM: Did they now?
KM: Yes. Yes [laughs]
JM: I see.
KM: You can’t win at that.
JM: You can’t win at that.
KM: No.
JM: No. Now, I don’t know whether it was this trip or not with the QE2 but I haven’t got the dates with me unfortunately. But one, one of the QE2 voyages they had to deviate via Greenland because they were being pursued by a —
KM: No. It wasn’t us.
JM: It wasn’t you.
KM: No.
JM: Right. Ok. So you went in to Scotland.
KM: Yes. And from there on to a troop train and down to Brighton.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And so you were in Brighton for your —
KM: At the Grand or, Grand or Metropole hotels.
JM: Hotels yeah. Yeah.
KM: Yes. And we were there for two or three weeks I suppose. Then we went to Whitley Bay for the commando course. Gee, you’re stretching my memory.
JM: Yeah. That’s alright. So then from that commando course —
KM: I must tell you while we were at the Grand there there was a chap. There was, around the corner from the Grand Hotel there was a bar that used to, you had a dance there as well. It was like, you know, a bit like a nightclub. And one of the boys who I didn’t know but he, when he was coming back one night he was half full. And there was a keg outside the, outside the place which was full and he rolled it back around to the hotel and we all carried it up to about the fifth floor and proceeded to drink it [laughs]
JM: So you actually got it up to the fifth floor.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Well that’s interesting because one of the other chaps I’ve talked to said they tried to do something similar and they’d covered it with a coat etcetera but they got, while they were covering it, while they were carrying it one of them slipped or something slightly and they lost their grip on it so the coat slipped and suddenly revealed that it was a keg and so they were sprung and they were told to — they didn’t get into trouble per se but they just got told to put it back down again and that was it.
KM: That might have been the end of war.
JM: Was it?
KM: ‘Cause I did hear that this same chap.
JM: Yeah.
KM: He tried it later on.
JM: Later on.
KM: Yeah. After the end of the war and he was caught. But the police let him off.
JM: Off.
KM: Because of the fact it was the end of the war.
JM: The war.
KM: Yes. But this keg we got it up. Whether it might have been the fourth floor or the fifth floor but I know it was up high enough. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And it required a bit of effort to get it up there.
KM: Yeah. And it was terrible beer as well. It was. The beer was shocking over there when we first arrived. The first, the first drink we had we walked in to the pub and I think we all had about one mouthful and that was it. We left the rest and walked out and said we’re going to have a very sober time here in England. But it’s surprising how your tastes change. Yeah. [laughs]
JM: Tastes change.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So roughly how long was the commando training? Roughly.
KM: I think it might have been a couple of weeks.
JM: And where were you off to after that?
KM: We went on leave then.
JM: Where did you go for your leave? Do you —
KM: To Edinburgh. Yeah. For a few days. I’m a bit lost after that [pause] and then I went to, I was posted to Milham after that. I don’t think Dougie went there did he?
JM: No.
KM: No. That’s, that’s when we sort of broke up. Milham was a place on the west coast of [pause] west coast of Cumberland. In Cumberland. Not that far from Blackpool. But it was cold and wet and it was a bugger of a place. It really was.
JM: Was.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And so was that some —
KM: That was —
JM: It wouldn’t have been an OTU it would have been a —
KM: No. It wasn’t an OTU.
JM: It was a —
KM: It was an AFU more or less. Yes.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Advanced Flying School.
JM: That’s right. So what were you flying there?
KM: Avro Ansons.
JM: Right. OK.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So would that have been your first sort of full flying experience?
KM: No. We did a fair bit of flying at Maryborough.
JM: Maryborough.
KM: Yes.
JM: Oh yes that’s right. But they were —
KM: They were Wacketts.
JM: Wacketts. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah so that would have been —
KM: And at the air gunnery school they were Fairey Battles.
JM: Yes. Yes.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So — but the Avros are slightly different to both of those.
KM: That’s right they were two engine kites.
JM: Kites. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And fully enclosed.
KM: That’s right yeah.
JM: Yeah. So —
KM: That’s where that [pause] you know the chap that appears in the other side there Stan Jacobs.
JM: Yeah.
KM: He’s on the right hand side.
JM: Yeah.
KM: He was in a plane. They crashed into a mountain. They weren’t killed, you know. He broke a leg and so he was off for a little while.
JM: Right. Right.
KM: Then unfortunately later on he was on a Halifax still training and they iced up over Oxford and crashed and they were all killed. Yeah.
JM: Gosh.
KM: He was a lovely man. Yeah.
JM: Yes. And so roughly how long were you at Milham?
KM: I think about five or six weeks.
JM: Yeah. And so where —
KM: I didn’t shine there.
JM: You didn’t shine there.
KM: No. I got am [pause] it’s in my logbook saying my discipline was poor.
JM: Oh?
KM: Because I had a couple of run-ins with some of the, you know the —
JM: Officers.
KM: Well not officers. No. The drill sergeant.
JM: Oh ok.
KM: And officers. Different people like that.
JM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KM: Objected to being told what to do.
JM: I see. Right.
KM: The thing, you know, it was just one of those things there. Nothing serious.
JM: No.
KM: No.
JM: Just the usual Australian.
KM: Well that’s all it was. Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Vernacular batmanship.
KM: Yeah.
JM: That’s right. So they didn’t formally discipline you or anything I presume.
KM: No.
JM: No. Just a word about calm it down MacDonald.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: But it was reported.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah. And there was, I’ll tell you about one occasion that happened at Milham.
JM: Yeah.
KM: I was in the bar this night having a drink with another chap and he’d had quite a few drinks and then we were going back to our hut and another Australian and he wanted to go to the tut and I said, ‘Well, we’re almost there. Or go behind that hut.’ He said, ‘I’ve got a better idea.’ There was a ladder outside one of the huts. The workmen had been doing something. So he climbed up the ladder. He got to the top there and there was a bit of a chimney coming out because every hut used to have a coke burner inside or a coal burner inside there and he pee’d down the chimney. And all the blokes [laughs] were sitting down inside and all of a sudden there was steam and you know you could hear the yells. Of course we went for our lives, you know [laughs] He managed to get down and we got into our hut and the next thing the door burst open and they said, ‘Has anybody just come in here?’ ‘No. Of course not.’ And the other boys said, ‘No.’ And they said, ‘Well why have you two got, these two got their great coats on?’ I said, ‘Well because we want to go. We were just about to go to the toilet.’ If they’d have caught us they would have killed us. As I said before that was my first occasion of being close to death [laughs] At the time there we thought it was a great joke.
JM: Joke. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: I presume you didn’t have any of those sort of hijinks when you were at Whitley Bay?
KM: No. No.
JM: No. That was —
KM: I wouldn’t tell you if your father was involved.
JM: That’s maybe why you should tell me but anyway, ok, so from Milham?
KM: To Finningley.
JM: Yeah.
KM: That was OTU.
JM: OTU.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And whereabouts is Finningley?
KM: Out of Doncaster.
JM: Oh ok. Down. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Down south right.
KM: There I crewed up.
IJM: I was going to say you would have probably crewed up there. Yeah.
KM: Yes. With three Canadians.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And two Englishmen at the time. That made six of us.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Then they, from there we —
JM: What were you flying at —?
KM: Wellingtons.
JM: Wellingtons. Yeah.
KM: They were doing, they were building a new runway there. Or improving the runway so we went to a satellite ‘drome called Worksop.
JM: Right.
KM: And we were on Wellingtons there.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah. That, well, you know that skipper was going very well except one time he tried to land the plane thirty feet up in the air and we just dropped like a stone. Luckily we had the undercarriage down but it pushed all the undercarriage back up. He had a screened pilot with him who immediately pushed the throttles forward and we took off again. We had to fly around for quite a while. They had the ambulances and the fire brigade and God knows what there because they thought we’d have to belly land.
JM: Land yeah.
KM: But fortunately they were able to, we were able to hand winch them down.
JM: Hand winch them down.
KM: That went down. Yeah. It didn’t go against the skipper. It was just one of those things, you know.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah. He wasn’t as close to the ground as he thought he was.
JM: Thought he was. Yeah. Right. So that was a bit of a —
KM: It was another one of those things.
JM: Yeah. Yeah. And I might just pause for a minute because of that noise outside.
[voices outside. recording paused]
JM: Ok. That group of people have passed by now. So we won’t have the voices just drifting in and that.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: So ok so was that the only sort of a bit of a hairy moment for you?
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: in the flying at OTU.
KM: We did a lot of flying there. And night flying.
JM: Flying.
KM: Day flying. Yes. Yeah.
JM: So what was your pilot? Was your pilot one of the Canadians?
KM: Yeah. Canadian. The pilot was a Canadian.
JM: Yeah.
KM: The navigator was Canadian and the bomb aimer was Canadian.
JM: Right.
KM: The mid-upper gunner was English and the rear gunner was English.
JM: Right. Ok. Ok. So you finished your OTU and did all fair number of hours doing your day and night flying all around there. And —
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And then —
KM: And then we went to [pause] it was a Heavy Conversion Unit.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Just have to get my logbook and see.
JM: Yes, certainly. We’ll just pause. [pause] Have you got a summary at the back there of your [pause] sometimes they put, they put a little summary at the back of the various bases or something.
KM: Yeah. No, I’ve just got the name of the aircraft.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Right.
KM: I know it was 1667 Heavy Conversion Unit.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Gee.
JM: That’s alright.
KM: I should know.
JM: Yeah. That’s alright. We’ll — it may well come back to you shortly. We’ll continue on and we’ll, as I say, see how — if it comes back that’s good.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Otherwise it’s not a problem. It’s not a problem.
KM: Here’s Lindsey.
JM: Lindsey coming in is he?
KM: I think he’s bringing his logbook. You want to scan it or something don’t you?
JM: Yeah but not, not at the moment.
KM: No.
JM: I want to finish chatting to you first.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Yeah. So maybe he didn’t realise. So we’ll pause while Lindsey comes in.
[recording paused]
JM: And so we’re resuming after a brief interruption. Lindsey Hibbard, whom I have interviewed a previous day happens to live just a couple of doors away from Ken and he just popped in to see us for a moment. So Lindsey’s now gone. Returned to his home. So we’re now resuming and we were covering Heavy Conversion. You were doing Heavy Conversion on Halifaxes.
KM: Halifaxes. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And that would have what? A few weeks of flying you think. And then, any particular, do you remember any particular incidents?
KM: No. There was no particular incidents there. No.
JM: No.
KM: No.
JM: Ok. And after you finished your Heavy Conversion is that when you were posted to 12 Squadron.
KM: No. From there we went to —
JM: Oh you had to do a, a Lancaster, yeah.
KM: Lanc Finishing School. Yes.
JM: And where did you do, where did you do your —
KM: At Hemswell.
JM: Hemswell. Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ok. And —
KM: About a fortnight we were there.
JM: About a fortnight there.
KM: Yeah. Yeah. And from there we went to [pause ] that’s where we picked, we picked up the —
JM: Engineer.
KM: At the Heavy Conversion Unit that’s where we picked up our engineer.
JM: Engineer. Yeah.
KM: He was a, he was a Welshman.
JM: He was a Welshman was he?
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ok.
KM: Yeah. So we were a variety of nations of crew.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
KM: I was the only Australian.
JM: Yes.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yes. Indeed. As was the case with quite a few crews.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So, so then it was off to Wickenby to 12 Squadron.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: You’re getting —
KM: Before that we’d lost our rear gunner. I’m sorry, mid-upper gunner was — he went missing.
JM: Did he?
KM: Yeah. I think that he might have — it was too much for him.
JM: Too much.
KM: Yes. Yeah.
JM: So —
KM: Whether he went — we just don’t know.
JM: No.
KM: He never came back to us.
JM: Came back.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ok. So who came in and replaced him?
KM: Oh another English bloke.
JM: Another English bloke. Right. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ok. And was that during the Heavy Conversion or the Lancaster Finishing?
KM: The Heavy Conversion.
JM: Conversion. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Okey dokes. And so nothing else. You would have had a little bit of leave and that between these courses.
KM: I had leave. Yes.
JM: What sort of things did you do?
KM: I went up to — I never, I very rarely went to London because I thought it was too big and, you know, very impersonal. Used to go to Nottingham where there was ten females to every man. So [laughs] so it was a good place to go to. Yes. You were never lonely.
JM: You were never lonely.
KM: Never lonely. Yeah.
JM: No. That’s right. You had a wide choice.
KM: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
JM: Yes.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And did the whole crew go when you were on leave or did you go your separate ways generally.
KM: Well. Yes. Mainly. Mainly I went on my own because the others, you know, they used to go home or something like that.
JM: Yeah. Well, presumably the Englishmen.
KM: Yeah.
JM: May have been a bit harder for the Welshman to go home but certainly.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Probably the English chaps went home. The Canadians probably stuck together then I suppose.
KM: Yeah. Well there were two officers among the Canadians and then the skipper he became an officer as well. So —
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So did you feel that created a bit of —?
KM: No. No. No.
JM: No. Right.
KM: The skipper was great. He was, he was —
JM: What was his name?
KM: Johnny Murray.
JM: Right.
KM: John Grimler Murray.
JM: And —
KM: When we were on the squadron you know when we weren’t flying we used to — you see you talk about pubs a lot.
JM: That’s alright.
KM: It’s probably one of the things but we would ride our bikes down to the local pub there and he’d come up with us and play darts and you know, other things and then drive back home again. A bit hairy coming back. Especially during the snowy weather when the roads were very icy and everything. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Any tumbles?
KM: You tumbled on occasion. Yes. And then when we, when we got back to the squadron there we were very friendly with the service police or military police whichever you want to call them and we’d call in their headquarters and they used to be able to purloin bacon and eggs and different things like that so we’d have a little bit of a feed with them. Yeah.
JM: That’s good.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Good to have these cordial relationships.
KM: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
JM: Yes. That’s right. So any other particular incident? Well, that stand out at this stage or you really, this is when the hard work starts. When the op starts.
KM: That’s when the hard work starts when we got to the squadron. Yeah.
JM: The squadron. Yeah. And what sort of — where were you going and what sort of things were you doing?
KM: What raids were we on?
JM: Yeah. What raids were you on?
KM: The first two we did Essen. Essen. Cologne. Cologne.
JM: Right.
KM: Two nights and two days.
JM: Days.
KM: It was a little bit of shock to the system to start off with. But the, you know especially when you’re on the tail of the target. And on the way to the target as well. If you’re off course at all well you could run into problems there.
JM: And any difficult — any real difficulties I mean?
KM: Not in those four. No.
JM: Not in those four.
KM: No. We got shot up on one occasion. We had to — we had no [pause] no brakes, no flaps or anything like that. We had to land at one of the emergency ‘dromes which they had.
JM: Right. No hydraulics in other words.
KM: No. That’s right.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And they’re about two miles long the runways. With an overshoot, you know, of about a half a mile. When we landed we took the whole length. Just rolled to the end. We were lucky. Yeah.
JM: But was it a belly landing or —?
KM: No.
JM: No. You were —
KM: Got on the, manually wound the —
JM: That’s right.
KM: The undercarriage down.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And then the blokes. They were great there. Manston I think it was. The chaps there. The mechanics worked all night and got us back flying the next day.
JM: Right. Gosh.
And we got back to our ‘drome. Yeah.
JM: And what [pause] which raid was that raid during that you got that flak? You’re not sure.
KM: I’m not certain.
JM: Yeah. That’s ok.
KM: I’d be guessing.
JM: No.
KM: Doesn’t make a great deal of difference.
JM: No. That’s right. So that’s, they were the first few raids.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And then what? What — where did you go next?
KM: We went to Nuremberg. Munich. Bochum. Didn’t get to Berlin. Nuremberg was a very dicey one.
JM: Yeah.
KM: We lost quite a few planes there. Then towards the end we went to a place called Royan in France which was still an enclave that hadn’t been captured by the French or the allies, you know. And we bombed it but apparently, we found out since then, I only found out recently that we should never have bombed it. It was an agreement between an American officer and, you know some of the French and there was a bit of — they’d been drinking and there was a misinterpretation and there was a hell of a lot of civilians in the town which we — I don’t think they came out if too well. Yeah. We should never have bombed it. Yeah.
JM: Bombed it. But you were not to know.
KM: Oh we didn’t know. We were just told. Every target we went to it was ostensibly a military target. It was either oil wells or different things. Factories. But never civilian targets. Actually civilians would be killed because everybody is not that accurate with their bombing. Yeah. So we were never, we were never told to bomb civilian targets.
JM: That’s right.
KM: Even though people thought that we did but we didn’t. Yeah. And then on the 14th of June — 14th of January.
JM: 14th of January.
KM: Yeah.
JM: ‘45.
KM: Yeah. We were on our way to Merseburg. It was 11 o’clock at night and a German fighter got us. It was —
JM: How far out were you? Were you right over Germany?
KM: Yes. We were well and truly into Germany.
JM: Germany.
KM: We still had our bombs on board.
JM: Right.
KM: Hit us with cannons and so forth. Set us on fire and we took evasive action and actually got the fire out. Then we dropped our bombs. We jettisoned our bombs there. And the fighter came in again and hit us again and set us on fire again.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Skipper said we had to bale out and were waiting to bale out. We were on fire at the back. Couldn’t get to the gunners. I tried to get to them but, you know it was all fire. Couldn’t get through. The front was jammed a bit. The front escape was jammed a bit. Finally got it open and then we blew up.
JM: You still had fuel on board I suppose.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: None of us went out through that. We were just all blown out.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And the skipper, engineer and myself were the only ones that came out of it. The others were all — well the gunners had both been wounded.
JM: Wounded.
KM: And the others were killed in the explosion.
JM: Explosion.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And so you had your chutes on at this stage?
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So you —
KM: It was the first time I had done up my harness. I never used to do up a parachute harness you know. I’ve never had, never put a parachute on. But I soon put it on that night.
JM: Yes. Yes I can imagine.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So —
KM: And so we landed in the snow. It was a beautiful feeling. I went out — I was unconscious. I came to in the air. It was a beautiful feeling falling, you know. And I thought will I pull rip cord or not? But then I think self-preservation came in. I pulled it. And went out to it again and landed on the ground. But I lost my flying boots on the way down. And I met up with my engineer. We decided to escape. Go to Switzerland which was three hundred miles away.
JM: Yeah.
KM: We were in the snow and I didn’t have any flying boots. Yeah.
JM: What, how were your boots sort of damaged is why they came off?
KM: The rush of air used to get them. That was the trouble. They had a fault with them. And then they brought in a new type of flying boot which was an escape boot.
JM: Boot. Yeah.
KM: Which you took part of the flying boot off and you end up with a shoe.
JM: Shoe.
KM: Yeah. But I hadn’t been issued with those.
JM: Issued with those.
KM: The engineer had.
JM: Oh ok.
KM: So what we did we took the top part of his flying boot off and wrapped it around my feet, you know. But we only, we went two or three hours and my feet were absolutely frozen.
JM: Frozen.
KM: So I said to him, ‘Well I’m going to give myself up.’ So we came to this few houses and knocked on the door. It was about 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning. And knocked on the windows and called out, ‘Australians.’ You know [laughs] But there was women in there. They wouldn’t open the door. I think they were frightened of us.
JM: Yeah.
KM: We got to another place and a bit of a farmhouse and just went in to the farmyard and let them know. A bloke came out and put us in a barn and we spent the night there. And then the police arrived the next day. The farmer by the way gave me a pair of old boots to put on.
JM: Oh that’s good.
KM: They weren’t the right size.
JM: Size.
KM: But still they were something.
JM: They were something. Yeah. Gave a bit of protection.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Did they give you any food or —?
KM: I think he might have given us a cup of tea. Yeah. They, the farmer, they wouldn’t be too badly off. But the Germans were you know [pause] their place, you know, was in a mess. From there we went in to this town called Wetzlar and it was and — there wasn’t a thing standing. They put us in the local jail and we got kicked around a little bit but still —
JM: So this was just the normal German police at this stage.
KM: No. That’s where they handed us over to the army there. Yeah.
JM: Oh right.
KM: Yeah. Admittedly they did get a doctor to come and have a look at me because I’d done my shoulder in as well. I lost the sleeve off my battle jacket. You know, it was torn off. My shoulder was injured and they got, the doctor did come which was good I thought. Yeah.
JM: And did he, was he able to do anything? Or did he just strap it up or what?
KM: No. He just looked at it and he put a couple of dressings on the leg and feet. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Because it was eating right in to the ball of my feet, you know eating away. Yeah. From there we went to Dulag Luft which was the interrogation centre. Had a week there in solitary confinement which, we were in a room where you can’t see out and you didn’t know if it was day or night and they’d turn the lights off. On and off. And the heating. They’d turn that on and off as well. On the wall there were, you could see where blokes had scratched the number of days. I don’t know whether the Germans had put it there to upset us or not but [laughs] you’d look at and you’d say, ‘Oh God.’ Yeah — but the Germans —
JM: But did they try to —
KM: Well they tried —
JM: Torture you in any other way. I mean obviously this was mental sort of torture.
KM: Yeah that was mental torture. The interrogation. Interrogation part was, they were very good to you. They tried to be nice to you. They’d offer you cigarettes and everything like that, you know. But they knew what squadron we came from.
JM: From —
KM: Yeah.
JM: And their English was reasonable?
KM: Oh his English. There was a chap that I had he was, he had an American accent. And he said he’d spent all his childhood in America.
JM: Right.
KM: And he’d just came back with the war. Yeah. And we were, we were carrying a new piece of equipment which I didn’t know what it was. I, you know, I wasn’t properly aware of it. What it, what it, how to work it or anything like that so they couldn’t get anything out of me about it. They, they were very interested in that. Yeah.
JM: And was your engineer with you? Still with you at the station or had they separated with you at this stage?
KM: Oh we were in separate. Yeah. Never saw him.
JM: You were in separate cells but —
KM: Yeah. Never saw him. Not during that period. No.
JM: No. Well yes obviously in solitary confinement. No.
KM: Yeah.
JM: But you were both, but you were both in the same station.
KM: Yeah. So was the skipper.
JM: Oh was he?
KM: Yeah.
JM: Oh he’d been pulled in as well. Right.
KM: Yeah. He’d been brought in as well. Yeah.
JM: Right. Ok. Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So at least you knew the three of them ultimately you knew there was three.
KM: I knew there was three. There was three of us still alive.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah. And then they let us go. We went to a transit place where they gave me a new top. Some American flak jacket or some bloody thing. I don’t know. No collars or anything like that. And then put us on a train to Luckenwalde, which was south of Berlin. We spent about seven or eight days on that train. One of those where forty men or eight horses. You know. We were supposed to go up to a camp on the north of Germany but I think because of the bombing I think we were being diverted all the time and switched and everything. It wasn’t the, wasn’t the greatest of trips. It wasn’t as good as the trip across America [laughs]
JM: No porters in other words.
KM: Yeah. And it was very awkward. There was no toilets or anything. If you wanted to go and do a wee, you know, you’d have to, you could open the doors but the cold, you know. It was freezing cold.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And I had, I could only stand on one leg.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And standing there and you’re swaying.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And getting abused by everybody because the doors were open.
JM: Abused by everyone else because the doors. That’s right. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And trying to, you know, make sure the wind was blowing in the right direction apart from everything else.
KM: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Because this was, what? This is January. This was what? Towards the end of January I suppose by this stage if you were in —
KM: It was. Yeah. That would be it would be yeah. Would be the end of January.
JM: Because you’d had seven days in solitary confinement so —
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So you’re getting towards the end of January.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So yeah. So I mean gosh. It’s just so cold. That’s just peak midwinter.
KM: Yeah.
JM: It’s freezing.
KM: Then we got, we finally got to Luckenwalde and it was a camp. It was a very big camp. It was about thirty miles south of Berlin.
JM: Yeah.
KM: It had a multitude of different prisoners there. Russians, Italians, French, Poles, Americans. You name it. The hut that I went into — Hitler at one time had tried to form an International Brigade. He wanted people to fight for Germany against the Russians. Not to fight against England. And he, what he concentrated on were the Irish because the Irish were only in the war because they like fighting. So anybody with an Irish name they went to this camp and they were offered, you know fight to, to join the army and fight for Germany. Very few did it but I ended up in this Irish hut. And it was north of Ireland one end and south of Ireland the other. They didn’t talk. Some of them, they’d had been prisoners for four of five years you know and there was still that division between them. Yeah. When I was there [pause]I was going to say something but a different type, you know. Coming from Australia and being very young you’re not going to be aware of this sort of thing. I couldn’t understand it. Actually, I still shake my head in bloody amazement. The fact that people could be like that you know.
JM: So stubborn.
KM: Yeah.
JM: In the circumstances.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yes.
KM: It was religion as well you know. But still.
JM: So you didn’t. So —
KM: And I was lucky while I was there. There was an American. He’d been captured. He was in the airborne division and was captured at Arnhem and they’d marched them all the way across. He still had some Sulfanilamide powder which he put on my feet because the, there was, you know holes about that far in to my feet you know. I couldn’t walk. And he put the Sulfanilamide powder on and that brought them back to life. Yeah. Eventually. Yeah.
JM: And were the pilot and the engineer also brought into this same camp?
KM: Yes. The engineer was. The pilot — he was over in the officer’s compound.
JM: Compound yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So did you see, and then see the engineer from time to time?
KM: Yeah. Saw him a lot. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And then eventually the Russians liberated us. Didn’t want, didn’t want to let the — we were in the, you know where the Americans had stopped at the River Elbe and we were, I suppose about forty or fifty miles from there. They wouldn’t let the Americans come through or anybody else. What they wanted to do was to bring us back, take us back through Germany and then claim the money. You know. And we weren’t supposed to leave the camp.
JM: What were conditions like in the camp? Generally speaking.
KM: They weren’t —
JM: I mean obviously it’s a prisoner of war camp so it’s not going to be great.
KM: Yeah.
JM: But I mean, you know — any particular things stand out for you?
KM: Food was very light on, yeah. Conditions weren’t the best but —
JM: How many people in each sort of hut type thing?
KM: I suppose could be about a hundred I suppose. Yes. Yes. It’s a bit hard to remember now. Yeah.
JM: No. That’s alright. Just an impression.
KM: Yeah.
JM: That, you know. I mean —
KM: There would have been about [pause] in the camp itself — it was a big camp. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there was fifteen to twenty thousand there. You know. The Russians were treated atrociously because they didn’t have the Geneva Convention. Yeah. And luckily we did get some, on occasion we got a Red Cross parcel and through that we could buy bread with cigarettes or, yeah, chocolate. Yeah.
JM: So how long were — how long before the Russians came in? When did the Russians come in?
KM: They came in the end of April or beginning of May. Beginning of May, round about. We were forbidden to leave the camp. Which is like a red rag to a bull [pause] and the chap that, the English chap — I used to muck in with him, you know. We used to share things like food and everything like that. And he’d gone in to, in to the town and he’d met up with two frauleins or fraus they were and he sent a message back for me to come in. So, I went in to the town and when I was in the town there, there was two bloody British officers and I said, ‘Hello,’ to them and they handed me over to the Russians and that was the first time I was really scared. There was, you know, they couldn’t speak English and there was this big Russian officer and a Mongolian offsider and they had me in the room there interrogating me and I thought [laughs] I thought — you know.
JM: This is not good.
KM: Not good. They said, ‘Stop here.’ And they left the room. I did a bunk. Thank God.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Then I went around.
JM: Why? Do you know why the British officers would have just handed you over to the Russians?
KM: Because we’d disobeyed the rules.
JM: Oh. Ok.
KM: Yeah. They were Air Force blokes, you know.
JM: That’s ridiculous.
KM: It’s amazing. Yeah.
JM: But had they been prisoner of war as well?
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: They were out of the camp.
JM: They were from the camp as well.
KM: They were out of the camp. Yeah.
JM: So why were they out of the camp? Were the officers allowed?
KM: Well they were, they were allowed. They were on duty to make sure that the —
JM: There were none of the underlings running around the town.
KM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Ok. Right. Cushy job to get that then wasn’t it?
KM: Yeah. I went and caught up with my mate and I had a bath there and he said, ‘Stop the night,’ and I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’d rather wait to get back to England.’ Yeah. So I went back to the camp. That night, after I’d left there he said there were two Russian soldiers came to the door and came in and he said, he met her put their arm around him and he said, you know, and the he was looking in the barrel of a shotgun and one of them raped one of the women. And then they came back and the other one raped the other one. My mate said to me, he said, ‘Jeez I wish you’d been there Aussie,’ he said, ‘We would have done something about it.’ I said, ‘Thank God I wasn’t there because I wouldn’t be here now.’ Yeah. Then two days after —
JM: Did he, did he then come back to camp as well did he or —?
KM: He came back to camp the next day. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: But then he went back to town.
JM: Ok.
KM: And then two other chaps and myself we purloined a couple of bikes each. A bike each. There were three bikes. And we set off on our own towards the River Elbe and we got to a town and there was an American truck there that had come in to do some liaison with the Germans. With the Russians and he picked us up and took us back to the American line. And on the way there we passed two other chaps. They were officers. RAF officers riding their bikes and we said to the Yank to stop the car, the truck. He stopped and we told these blokes to throw the bikes away and get on board. They said, ‘No.’ They were enjoying the ride. Fair dinkum, you know. So we told the driver to, bugger them and he and we drove on. When I think about it now they could have even been Germans dressed up as — yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah. When you think about it. Because I don’t think anybody could be that stupid.
JM: Stupid. No.
KM: Yeah. Yeah. So then I got —
JM: So back to the American base on the Elbe.
KM: Yeah. We were there for a day and then we went on to another place and then the surrender came through while we were there. While I was there. Yeah. And then the next couple of days, you know, went to [pause] flown to Calais, then caught a tank landing ship —
JM: How did you get flown?
KM: British.
JM: British?
KM: Transport. Yeah. We were taken to an aerodrome.
JM: Yeah. So that was —
KM: Some place in Germany.
JM: Near Berlin then I presume.
KM: No we were in the American lines. We were well from the, well away Germany —
JM: Oh ok.
KM: From Berlin.
JM: Berlin.
KM: Because Berlin was well inside. They had to stop at the River Elbe you see.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
KM: British and American.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Had to stop there.
JM: So it was on the other side of the Elbe.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah so —
KM: Back towards France.
JM: Yeah. Ok.
KM: And they were picked up by a small plane there and flown to Calais
JM: Yeah.
KM: Put on a tank landing ship and went across to Portsmouth. Portsmouth —
JM: Did the engineer go with you? So were you —
KM: No. I was on my own then.
JM: You were on your own then.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: And the pilot was obviously being —
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Handled differently again.
KM: Yeah. They were still in the camp.
JM: Oh ok. Right. Oh that’s right. You’d gone on your bikes and —
KM: Yeah. We escaped.
JM: You were a couple of Irishmen were they?
KM: No. English.
JM: Oh a couple of English.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ok. You say you got back to Portsmouth.
KM: Portsmouth and then they put me on the train. Sent me down to Brighton.
JM: Right.
KM: And that was good because I had my battle pants on. Had an American jacket without sleeves.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Without collar.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Then one of those brown knitted caps that the Americans wore.
JM: And you didn’t have any sort of coat. You must have been freezing just about all the time just because you were still —
KM: Yeah. When I say coat it did have sleeves on it.
JM: Oh ok.
KM: It did have a sleeve yeah.
JM: Oh of course but this time it’s May isn’t it?
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Do you know roughly, do you have a date that you got to Portsmouth in mind or you don’t remember exactly?
KM: I think it was about the 11th of May.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So then you went —
KM: And I know I was having a feed in the mess at Brighton and I broke all the rules because I still had the cap on. I hadn’t taken it off yet. You’re not allowed to wear a cap in —
JM: In the mess.
KM: At the mess. Yeah. Yeah. And from there had a week’s leave, a week or two leave and then I had six weeks at a rehabilitation place. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Where was that?
KM: Hoylake.
JM: Hoylake. Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Whereabouts it that?
KM: Hoylake is near Liverpool.
JM: Yeah.
KM: In an old home that was right on the golf course. They play the British Open at Hoylake. Yeah.
JM: Open there. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
KM: Beautiful old home.
JM: So you were able, you said you had, before you went to Hoylake that you went to — had a couple of weeks leave.
KM: Yeah.
JM: What did you — were you able to enjoy that?
KM: Oh yeah.
JM: Or were you still banged up a bit from — well your feet and your leg would have been still giving you problems still I presume.
KM: No. My leg was alright then.
JM: Oh right. Ok.
KM: I had a couple of medical appointments in London as well.
JM: Yeah.
KM: For my arm. That was the reason they sent me to Hoylake.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Because I’d damaged all the nerves in my arm. It’s still not right, you know. It’s permanently damaged.
JM: Damaged. Yeah. So did you have leave in around London then?
KM: Around London yeah. Of course there was —
JM: Yeah. So did you go to any shows or anything like that?
KM: No. There were some people that I knew, that I had known here in Australia. They’d gone over to London in some sort of capacity. You know. Repatriation capacity. I saw them a couple of times. Yeah. Then I went to Hoylake. We were allowed to get out. Go to the pictures. I met a girl there. Fell madly in love or that’s what you think [laughs] She was going to come back to Australia but it never eventuated. You know, I can’t think of her surname. Isn’t it terrible? I can think of her Christian name and no surname. Yeah. She was a lovely girl but still. One of those things. And then in the end they said, because I got in to trouble with the doctors there as well because I used to be late home from a night. You had to be home at 11 o’clock and I used to in about twelve. Yeah. In the end they said they thought the best thing they could do for me was to send me back to Australia. And I said, ‘For once I agree with you.’ Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah. But I can always remember in the place there, there was, you know. You think you’re badly off but there was a young bloke about my age. He had lost both arms. I went past his room this time and you could hear him crying, you know. I thought what sort of a life has he got to look forward to? Yeah.
JM: Was he English or Australian?
KM: English.
JM: English. Yeah.
KM: Yeah. I don’t know how he lost them but yeah I did. I did speak to him.
JM: Perhaps he was army. Possibly army perhaps he was army because I mean —
KM: No. He was Air Force.
JM: He was Air Force ok.
KM: It was an Air Force convalescent home.
JM: Oh this was specifically Air Force. Right. Ok. I thought —
KM: Yeah.
JM: Sometimes they were multi service ones.
KM: Yeah.
JM: But that was — right ok.
KM: So then we got on the Orion and came home via the Panama Canal. And halfway home the Japanese surrendered. So I missed the bloody victory in Europe and I missed victory over Japan. Yeah. So —
JM: On the other hand you were safely on board a boat.
KM: I was safe. Well, yeah. Yeah.
JM: On a, the Orion would have been reasonably comfortable was it?
KM: It wasn’t bad. Yeah. Yeah. Not — it was still, still a troop ship.
JM: A troop ship yeah. How many? Was it?
KM: I can’t remember.
JM: Can’t remember.
KM: I know that there was a lot of English sailors on it who were coming out to join the, you know, the fleet they had out here in Australia. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Then home here. I had two or three weeks leave and then I went to a convalescent home at Sussex Inlet. The air force had it. Had it down there.
JM: Right.
KM: And then I was finally discharged in February ’46.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah. That’s my story.
JM: Yes. So then that’s —
KM: It went on for a while.
JM: No. That’s — so February ‘46 you were discharged.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And so what, what, did you feel that you were fully recovered then from — after you’d had that time you had at Sussex Inlet? I mean the time were the physical injuries more or less —?
KM: Well they couldn’t do anything with me down there. They couldn’t get this repaired so that was it. It was just —
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah. And so then I went straight to university and did dentistry which I failed my exams which was understandable. I didn’t go back to teacher’s college because after the life I’d led in the air force I felt that teaching was too mundane, you know. It just, it didn’t appeal to me then. So then I had a couple of other jobs and I ended up going to the Commonwealth Bank in 1949. Got married in 1949 as well.
JM: So you’re back in Sydney at this point.
KM: Yes.
JM: And you’d been living with your parents?
KM: At Kirribilli.
JM: So they’d moved to Kirribilli.
KM: Yeah.
JM: By this stage.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ok so they had sold — had they sold —
KM: Sold. Yeah.
JM: Potts Point.
KM: They had another business after that.
JM: Oh ok.
KM: They had a business in Margaret Street in, next door to the Scotch Church at [unclear]
JM: Oh yeah.
KM: Yeah. Lammington Hall was — yeah. They sold that and then went to Kirribilli.
JM: Right.
KM: And —
JM: And what did they have at Kirribilli?
KM: Same sort of thing. Private hotel. Yeah.
JM: Private Hotel. Yeah. Yeah. And so you were staying with them?
KM: Yeah.
JM: While you were in those other couple of jobs.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: And then —
KM: And when I got married we just had a small unit at Mossman before we went to Mona Vale.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah. And then we lived at Mona Vale for about forty years until I retired and then moved. Went to Nambucca Heads for a year, ten years. Then to Cabarita Beach down here. And Helen developed Alzheimers and I’d looked after her for about ten years and it got to the stage I knew that she’d eventually have to go, she would have to go into care so that was the reason I came to this place here, because they had the nursing home. It was easy for me because I could go over every day and see her. Bring her home if I wanted to. But she was only for about three months when she died suddenly. Yeah. So that was six years ago.
JM: Six years ago.
KM: On the 20th of February. Yeah. But I’ve got three kids, seven grandchildren and three great grandchildren.
JM: And are the children around the area at all or —?
KM: The two girls are.
JM: Yeah.
KM: My two daughters are.
JM: And where are they?
KM: One’s at Kingscliff and the other one’s at Tanglewood.
JM: Right.
KM: Which is out at Cabarita beach.
JM: Beach. Right ok.
KM: And my son’s at Dee Why in Sydney.
JM: Sydney. Ok. So back in Sydney still. Right. So from basically ’49 to when you retired in — when did you say you retired?
KM: I retired in ’82.
JM: ’82. So you did all that time in the Commonwealth Bank. Did you stay in Sydney all that time in Sydney all that time, or did you do any country postings?
KM: No. I was a relieving manager. I used to relieve all over New South Wales. But —
JM: Right.
KM: But I didn’t [pause], they wanted me to, wanted to know if I was mobile which meant I’d go to any country town and I said no. Because we had a nice, we were living in Mona Vale. The kids were just going to school. We, you know, so they, you know, they had continuity. It cost me promotions and things like that but that’s not everything.
JM: No.
KM: No. And the Commonwealth Bank was never my kettle of fish. It really, you know, it was a job which I did to the best of my ability but I wouldn’t say that I was overly enjoyed working there.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: But it gave you the security that you needed.
KM: Well it gave me security. That’s right. Yeah. Well in those days that’s what you looked for.
JM: Yeah.
KM: They don’t seem to worry about that these days. Security doesn’t mean, seem to mean very much.
JM: No. That’s right.
KM: In those days everybody took a job in public service or Commonwealth Bank or something like that, you know where you were going to have a job for life. Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. That’s right. So, and of course obviously that was while it was still part of the government before. I’m just trying to think when did the government sell it off. Before or after you retired?
KM: No. They sold it off before I retired yeah.
JM: Retired. Yeah.
KM: Yeah. And that’s when it —
JM: Started to change.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Wait a moment. No. I had retired. I’m Sorry. I had retired. Yeah.
KM: Yeah. That was probably a good thing you were out before. Yeah. It was ok for the first few years but then it became a dog eat dog job. I had mates who were in there.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And they said you’ve got no idea what it was like.
JM: Like. Yeah. Yeah.
KM: So all they were after was the mighty profits.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And it was it was functioning well before that. We were the leading. When I joined the bank we were tenth. There was ten banks and we were tenth. And of course there was an amalgamation and everything like that. When I left we were first.
JM: Yeah.
KM: But we hadn’t, we were still a government bank.
JM: Bank. Yeah.
KM: Yeah. And then it all they want to do now is to make big profits.
JM: Profits. That’s right.
KM: And I think the banks are terrible. You know the — [unclear] set up here. One of my mates was telling me. Went in there the other day. There’s no tellers.
JM: No. That’s the new style. That’s right.
KM: You’ve got to go to an ATM.
JM: ATM. Yeah.
KM: And what they forget is that old people are frightened of ATMs. Well they’re not frightened of them. They just don’t trust them.
JM: They just don’t. They prefer not to use them that’s right.
KM: They don’t trust them and you know that’s one of the things. You like to go in to a bank and speak to a teller.
JM: That’s right.
KM: But yeah and —
JM: And just going back to post-war as such. Were, have, did you maintain any contacts in the post-war with the pilot?
KM: I did —
JM: And the engineer?
KM: I did for the engineer for a little while and then like all things that you drop off. And then with the pilot I had contacted him for a while as well and that dropped off.
JM: Yeah.
KM: But then a mate of mine, he was with 460 Squadron.
JM: Yeah.
KM: They had an Association and he told me that 12 Squadron had one which was called the Wickenby Register. And he managed to get me an application form to join it so I joined it. They sent me a booklet and there was my pilot’s name in there. So I wrote to him and then we went over to see him.
JM: Yeah. What year was that roughly? Seventies. Eighties.
KM: Eighties.
JM: Eighties. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: That was after you retired.
KM: After I retired yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And then they came out here. Then we went over again. And they came out again and then she died and then he died after that. Yeah. Yeah. But we had [pause] we met one time. We met them and we met them in, we went to a squadron reunion. It was at Nottingham and from there we went to France. We had a, got a car which we arranged. It was a left hand drive car. It was manual. It was a brand new car. A manual sedan, and he wouldn’t let me drive because it was on the wrong side of the road. But the trouble was after we’d been driving for a while I had to tell him when the lights were changing because he’d had to have an eye operation beforehand and he hadn’t had it [laughs] Then we had a little bit of a prang and that’s when he let me drive. So I drove up all the way after that you know, to Belgium.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Holland.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Germany.
JM: Germany. Yeah.
KM: France, Spain everywhere.
JM: Gosh. A fabulous trip.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: But it was difficult because you were on the left hand drive and a manual car as well.
JM: Yeah. I know.
KM: The gears are on the wrong side.
JM: You’re on the wrong side of the road. I know.
KM: Every time you put your indicator on it was your windscreen wipers came on.
JM: Windscreen wipers [laughs]
KM: It was a good trip. A real good trip.
JM: Yeah. You covered, you must have covered a lot of territory.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So you didn’t go back to Germany at all.
KM: Yeah. We went through Germany. Oh yeah.
JM: Didn’t do go anywhere near where you —
KM: No
JM: Didn’t go far enough up to —
KM: To the camp
JM: To the camp. Yeah.
KM: No. No. No.
JM: Did you go to any of the places where you —
KM: The rest of the crew were, they’re buried in Hamburg.
JM: Yeah.
KM: In a joint grave. They were at Wetzlar and were taken over there which I think was a joint grave because I think they had trouble identifying them. Yeah.
JM: So did you go to Hamburg at all?
KM: No.
JM: No.
KM: No.
JM: Right.
KM: That was too far over.
JM: Over. Also, yeah.
KM: As a matter of fact I just discovered this the other day [pause]
JM: And did you go to any of the places that you bombed?
KM: What happened after the war he went back into the Air Force.
JM: Oh ok.
KM: Went to university and then went back to the Air Force and he was stationed in Germany for, for quite a number of years so he got to know a lot of people. So we went to places where he knew.
JM: That you’d been over during the war.
KM: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s with the mayor and the council of some town.
JM: Town. Yeah.
KM: They made a presentation to us. It’s all in German.
JM: German yes.
KM: So don’t ask me what the name of the place is now. I’ve just discovered that the other day.
JM: Gosh, amazing. And they gave you a little presentation.
KM: Yeah.
JM: How did they know you were coming?
KM: He, he’d been in touch with friends.
JM: With friends. Right.
KM: And his friends over there got in touch with the council. Yeah.
JM: In touch with the council.
KM: And I didn’t know we were going there.
JM: Going there.
KM: The pilot. That’s him on the — over there I think. Yeah. Johnny.
JM: Right.
KM: This chap’s [pause] yeah that’s my pilot and that’s his wife.
JM: Right.
KM: And that’s Helen there.
JM: Right. Yeah.
KM: That was Helen.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And that was me.
JM: Yeah.
KM: I know that they’d taken a small gift over. Did that just go off?
JM: No. That’s all right.
KM: A small gift. I didn’t know we were going there. It was a bit embarrassing because we didn’t have anything to give them, but still.
JM: But if you didn’t know you couldn’t —
KM: That’s right. I could do anything about it. No.
JM: No. That’s right.
KM: Yeah. But they were great.
JM: Yeah.
KM: But do you know it’s an amazing thing. I had not yet met a German, and we met a hell of a lot of them while we were there, and not one of them was a Nazi.
JM: Yeah. Yeah. Not one of them was a Nazi.
KM: Not one of them was a Nazi [laughs] you know. None of them liked Hitler.
JM: No. That’s right.
KM: And I can tell you as a prisoner of war we were fed with this propaganda of how terrible the Germans were and what they did and everything like that. They’re exactly the same as you and I.
JM: Yeah. There’s some nice people and some not so nice people.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. [pause] Goodness me. And just going back to your flying. So how many —
KM: Fifteen and a half.
JM: Fifteen and a half.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Ops, you did. And in those —
KM: Yeah. That’s what I say. Lindsey did thirty and he got a DFC.
JM: Yeah.
KM: I did fifteen and a half and I got a prisoner of war badge.
JM: Yeah. Yeah. That right.
KM: An ex-prisoner of war badge.
JM: That’s right. And the crew did any of the crew members have any good luck charms or superstitions or anything like that?
KM: No. No.
JM: No. They were just —
KM: Yeah.
JM: Straight up and down.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Just happy chappies.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. What [pause] what is your overall feeling about having been a prisoner of war? Was it —
KM: It was an experience.
JM: Experience.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. You feel that —
KM: Air force life I loved.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah. I often feel I should have stopped in the air force. But if I had I wouldn’t have met Helen and I wouldn’t have had the kids I’ve got.
JM: No.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Where did you meet Helen?
KM: At Narrabeen in Sydney.
JM: Yeah.
KM: My parents were in between businesses. We took a house on Narrabeen Lake and she was living next door with her sister. Her sister was married and they had a couple of kids there and Helen was sort of helping out as well, you know, with the kids although she was working. And my brother, he told me, he said, ‘Gee,’ he said, my brother was married. He said, ‘There isn’t a bad looking girl living there.’ I said, ‘is that right.’ And I came home from uni one night and I was walking down and she was putting out the garbage so I just spoke to her and, you know, we were talking. I said, ‘Would you like to go to the pictures?’ She said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘On Saturday night.’ We went to see “The Jolson Story.” And my mother came along as well. And I [laughs] I still don’t know if she was there to protect Helen or me. But I said, when I said we were going to “The Jolson Story,” she said, ‘Oh gee, I’d like to see that as well.’ Yeah. So yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: So then yeah just things developed from there on and we were engaged for about eighteen months, and, yeah.
JM: Married and —
KM: Six years later she had our first child. Yeah. Yeah. We had, we had no money when we came from honeymoon. I think we had twenty pounds between us.
JM: Yeah. Where did you go for your honeymoon?
KM: Came up the inland highway through the floods. There were big floods in those days.
JM: Yeah. So this would have been, when would this, these weren’t the ’54 floods was it?
KM: No. The ’49.
JM: Oh the ’49. Yes. Right. Yes. ’49 yes.
KM: Came up to the gold coast and just stopped off at different places.
JM: So just a little touring the rounds.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Well, that’s an incredible experience that you’ve had. And it’s [pause] like many, very different. I mean every one, every one’s story is different.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Because they’ve had different experiences. Different circumstances they found themselves in. But yet, you know, everyone has contributed in such a way that —
KM: Yeah.
JM: You know, hasn’t been recognised up until now and that’s why it’s so good that it’s finally happening even if it is just so late.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Just so late.
KM: What do you do is you remember the good times. You don’t remember the bad. There probably were occasions when things weren’t going right with the flying and everything like that but I can’t remember them now.
JM: Yeah. So strongest memories are all the good times.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: Well, yeah, with the exception of course one particular, you know.
KM: Well even that has [pause] just an experience. You know. When we were shot down and it doesn’t. I don’t think it was a momentous occasion or anything like that. It was just something that happened unexpected. Yeah. You follow?
JM: Yes. Yes.
KM: Yeah.
JM: But yet you had some training, so you had some skills to call on.
KM: Yeah.
JM: To know how to handle it.
KM: Well you knew it could happen but yeah.
JM: Could happen. Yeah.
KM: But you always had to go on it wasn’t going to happen to you.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And when it did well —
KM: It did. Well, it happened. Yeah.
JM: You can’t change it. You had to go with it.
KM: And I must say I wasn’t scared.
JM: Right.
KM: I can honestly say that I was never scared. The first time I was really scared was with the Russians.
JM: With the Russians.
KM: Yes, in the town. And of course the war was over as far as I was concerned, you know.
JM: Yeah.
KM: It was to end and then what’s going to happen now?
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And even when, you know, you were on earlier raids and you got some flak and all the rest of I. Oh it sounds like we just have to have another little pause while we wait.
[recording paused while plane passes]
JM: Yes.
KM: Had nine months off work.
JM: When was that?
KM: Just before I retired.
JM: Retired. Oh goodness.
KM: It showed that I could retire without problems.
JM: Right.
KM: Yeah.
JM: So where were you knocked down?
KM: At Taylor Square.
JM: Taylor Square. Ok.
KM: Yeah. I was doing some relief out there and I was outside. We had a thing of a morning that we had keys in combinations. You didn’t go to the bank first. You had to wait and send, you know, of the younger ones in because they used to break in to the ceiling and hide in the ceilings and then get in you know in the bank and wait for someone to come with the keys and take them hostage sort of thing and get them to open up the safe. So — and this morning this girl was, she never late. She was late. Running late. And the car came around the corner, mounted the footpath and put me through the window of a funeral parlour. [laughs]
JM: I guess you would have had a bit of damage then out of that.
KM: Yeah. I had my leg all smashed up.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Pelvis as well. But — yeah.
JM: And what about the glass? Did the glass not sort of shatter?
KM: No. No.
JM: Not lacerate you?
KM: Actually behind the plate glass there was a brick wall. So it just sort of shattered, you know. I was lucky.
JM: Lucky. Gosh.
KM: A piece of glass went down and cut my pants. Brand new pair of pants I had on [laughs] That was the only time I ever wore them. [laughs]
JM: And before we just paused there for that aeroplane we were just saying —you were saying you were never scared, and I was just going to come back to sort of, couple of the early raids. You did have a fair bit of flak around and had a few holes in the plane.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: That, that, you weren’t scared then.
KM: No. No. Not really. No. Apprehensive but not scared. You were still flying alright though.
JM: Yeah.
KM: You know. Yeah.
JM: And you managed to deal with all the cold and all the rest of it when you were flying.
KM: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: So you didn’t have any real ongoing sort of issues.
KM: No. When I was flying there when I was cold I used to control the heating.
JM: Yes. So you were always comfortable. And was the gunner always freezing?
KM: Well the heating didn’t get back to them. They had —
JM: That’s right. They had —
KM: They had electric flying suits on them.
JM: Suits. Yeah.
KM: No, that would be terrible. Being a gunner.
JM: Yeah.
KM: They were out on their own. Got nobody to talk to, you know.
JM: To talk to. Very hard.
KM: Yeah.
JM: At least you could —
KM: Well I was right next to the navigator.
JM: The navigator. That’s right.
KM: He was, I could see what he was doing. There was a bod there near you. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Well I guess at this point unless there’s something that we haven’t covered that you’d particularly would like to mention as I say that we haven’t covered through then we might wrap it up at this point.
KM: Yeah. That would be fine.
JM: Yeah.
[recording paused]
JM: Right. We’re just talking with Ken again a little bit. I got a map out with the various raids over Europe that — and Ken’s just looking at the map. In the first instance you remembered where you did your —
KM: Conversion Unit.
JM: Your conversion. Your Heavy —
KM: Conversion Unit.
JM: Your Heavy Conversion Unit was where?
KM: Lindholme.
JM: Lindholme. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: And now were just also looking at the map of various raids and looking and you were pointing out where you were headed when you on the raid that you were shot down and you were —
KM: Yeah. Near Leipzig.
JM: Leipzig and what else?
KM: The prisoner of war camp was just south of Berlin there.
JM: Yeah.
KM: And we were shot down near, not that far from Wiesbaden.
JM: Wiesbaden. Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. So that’s a reasonable distance. So you were on trains weren’t you.
KM: Yeah. We were on trains yeah. Yes. Yeah.
JM: Yeah. And so your raids basically were.
KM: We went to the Ruhr a few times. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah. I shall have to have a look at my logbook now to see where most of them were. Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
KM: We were all over the place.
JM: Place. Yes.
KM: Yeah.
JM: Yeah. Something here. Something there.
KM: That’s right. Yeah.
JM: Ok. Thank you.
KM: And before we finish as a personal disclaimer I should say at this point that a couple of times Ken has mentioned a Doug McCartney. And in the course of setting up this interview, because of Ken’s extraordinary memory he remembered that there was a Doug McCartney on his wireless operator training at Maryborough. And in about the second phone call he raised this with me and I looked up my records of my father’s service and indeed they were together there and it turns out for about the following six months. And so it has been an amazing experience as never did I think I would meet someone who knew my father after all these years. So I thank you very much Ken.
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AMacdonaldK170222, PMacdonaldK1703
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Interview with Ken Macdonald
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eng
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01:33:10 audio recording
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Jean Macartney
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2017-02-22
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Ken Macdonald grew up in Australia and volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force. He flew operations with Bomber Command.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Luckenwalde
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
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Julie Williams
12 Squadron
1667 HCU
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Dulag Luft
entertainment
fear
final resting place
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Hemswell
RAF Wickenby
RAF Worksop
sanitation
Stalag 3A
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1168/11734/ATruemanKW150921.1.mp3
edf12796de7e798fe79b59731bc9cbd0
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Title
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Trueman, Kenneth William
K W Trueman
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Trueman (b. 1922, 1217929, 1455835 Royal Air Force). He flew operatoinsa as a navigator with 640 Squadron until his aircraft MZ855, was shot down near the village of Laloux in Belgium after an Operation to Russleheim 13 August 1944. The Pilot Flying Officer Dennis Barr and the rear gunner Sergeant Basil Orrick were killed and the gunner Sergeant Alfred Broddle was taken prisoner. The other four members of the crew, including Ken, escaped and were given shelter by the resistance until they were smuggled out and back to the UK in February 1945.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Trueman, KW
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Transcription
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CB: Right. I’m sitting in Solihull talking with Ken Trueman about his experiences in the war and my name is Chris Brockbank. And we’re going to talk about all aspects of his experiences including when he was shot down more than once and what happened as a result of that. So, Ken if you’d like to start with your earliest life and how life progressed, please?
KT: Well, I had just an elementary school education. I was one of the first that they accepted for aircrew who didn’t have further education. And I went down to Bedford and got my number and everything like that and then waited for them to call me up.
CB: So you were born in Birmingham.
KT: Yeah.
CB: So you went to an elementary school there.
KT: Yes. I went to —
CB: And what age did you leave school?
KT: Fourteen.
CB: And then what did you do?
KT: I was a carpenter. Trained as a carpenter until I was eighteen. I need not have gone into the forces because I was in a reserved occupation. And my foreman said, ‘Well, you can’t go unless I sack you.’ And so that was the only time I’ve ever had the sack. And he sacked me and then I was able to go and volunteer. Which I did at Dale End in Birmingham. And then some weeks later I was called to Bedford. And I got first taste of service life which unfortunately was, it was snowing like mad. They got us up at 5 o’clock. We had to shave in cold water with a little blue light. And then we waited three quarters of an hour in the snow to get in the dining room. And when I got in the dining room the cup and the knife, fork and spoon I had to open my hand to get. And we all sat there in our overcoats and steaming. Steam coming up it was. That was my first, service life if you like. But then they sent me home on indefinite leave and I was, as I say I was there until the, ‘til the end of 1941 when I was called up to London and I had six weeks with a rifle.
CB: What else did you do other than with the rifle?
KT: Oh, it was, it was mainly getting our inject, medicals, vaccinations. We [laughs] we were in the flats at the [unclear] Court, but we had our food at the London Zoo [laughs] And then we, of course we were kitted out then as well. And then from there we were posted to Torquay. And that took three months. And on my first leave I got married.
CB: This is 1941.
KT: No. That’s 1942.
CB: ’42. Okay.
KT: Yeah. I got married in June, the 6th 1942 and I did my first operation on June the 6th 1944. And that was D-Day.
CB: Okay. So after you’d finished at Torquay where did you go? What happened then?
KT: Pardon?
CB: What happened after Torquay?
KT: Well, then as I say I went to Desford for this twelve hour selection board. Twelve hours flying Tiger Moths. And from there we, we went to Heaton Park and we were under canvas for eleven weeks. And from there we went to South Africa on a ten knot convoy that took five weeks from leaving Liverpool to arriving at Durban. And so we went right north first of all. We must have been near land because land birds was landing on the deck. And then we came down around the Cape to Durban. And that’s where I started the advanced navigation course. I don’t know how long that took but I then moved up, just up the road to Collondale to do the, start the flying in Ansons.
CB: Just taking you back you said you had only basic education.
KT: Mmmn.
CB: While you were being, working as a carpenter what did you do as far as your education was concerned?
KT: In what way?
CB: Well, did you go to night school or what did you do?
KT: No. No. But the RAF did pay for a course in maths and English while I, after I’d got my number. And that was the only —
CB: In the Birmingham Technical College was it?
KT: No. No. My, one of my teachers at my school did it for two of us. Two of us. And the other lad unfortunately failed miserably his, they, I mean you have tests all the time and he failed and they made him a flight engineer which was a very short course, you know. And he was killed on one of his first or second raids he was on. And I was still, I was still training.
CB: So, when you finished the maths and English that coincided with your actual call up but then you’d already been graded had you? PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomber.
KT: No.
CB: Is that how you —
KT: No. You were a pilot under training. Pilot UT.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Until you had the selection course.
CB: Okay.
KT: It was at the end of the selection course when you were told whether you were going to be a pilot or a navigator.
CB: Okay.
KT: And had I not failed the night vision test I would have been a pilot. But as it happened I was very grateful for it.
CB: Why?
KT: Pardon?
CB: Why?
KT: Well, if you think about a pilot in a bomber. He takes off. And immediately he comes under the control of the navigator. All the way to the target. Unless of course they’re, they’re fired upon with a fighter when the gunners take over and direct the pilot. Then when they enter the target the bomb aimer takes over and he guides the pilot. As soon as the bombs have dropped it comes back to the navigator. So, all the pilot is, is a taxi driver [laughs] And I’m lucky because I’ve got something to do. We had to fix a new course every six minutes. And I could do it in four minutes so I had two minutes every, I had two minutes rest every six minutes.
CB: How did you do the fixes?
KT: With a Gee box. Have you heard of it?
CB: I know it. I’ve used it. Yeah.
KT: And we also had H2S.
CB: So, H2S was a radar. So did you use that all the trip or was it only used intermittently?
KT: Oh, only used as and when. So long as you had got Gee I, I didn’t want H2S. Gee box was my, my game. But of course it was, it was jammed as soon as you got to the French coast.
CB: And H2S. Why did you not want to use that?
KT: In my mind it was, I think, something. I don’t know. I did use it but I liked the Gee box better and of course as I, I said they jammed. As soon as you got to the French coast it was jammed. But half an hour before you got to the target you took out a, I don’t know what you’d call it. Something. Take it out, put a new one in and you got Gee then for ten minutes. And so you can imagine having Gee box for ten minutes, the fixes you got. And that put you right for the target then.
CB: Is that because that particular one was using a different frequency? That’s why you put the —
KT: I don’t know. The boffin boys —
CB: Right.
KT: All I know is I took this thing out, put this new one in and I got Gee then for ten minutes.
CB: Then what?
KT: It took Jerry ten minutes to —
CB: Right. For him to jam it.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Right.
KT: And then of course on the way back I just gave him a course for home and just checked up every fifteen minutes rather than every six minutes.
CB: So, that’s leapt ahead to action but you’re, we’re still perhaps back in South Africa. How did the training go? Who were the instructors?
KT: Oh, there was RAF and South African. People that had been on ops and they were instructors. And of course they were bored to tears. They wanted to get back on ops.
CB: Did they?
KT: Yeah. But I’ll tell you a funny story. When you finished your training in South Africa. Got my wing, you know. Half wing.
CB: Yeah.
KT: And you were sent to a place called Retreat in Cape Town. Well, it’s not in Cape Town. There’s a train that runs from Cape Town to Simon’s Town.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Simon’s Town is where the South African fleet is. So, you’ve got this train that runs and halfway is Retreat. And the RAF had got a rest and recuperation and you were there for a week. And then I was posted to India. And after a week we were marched to the docks and immediately marched off again. And we said, you know, ‘What’s going on?’ And they said, ‘We’ve got too many. You’ll go next week.’ And the next week we were marched on to the docks and marched off again. And the next week we were marched on to them, marched off again. And the next week we were marched on. Four times we were marched on to the docks and marched off again. But the fifth week there was, there was only fifty of us so we said, ‘Oh, we will be going this time.’ And sure enough we sailed on Friday the 13th on the Athlone Castle. Now, I, I, service life suited me down to the ground. And if you’re on a, if you’re on a British troop ship if you take your mug to the galley any time of day or night, they’ll fill it full of tea. And so at 6 o’clock on Friday the 13th I took my mug, got my tea, went and sat on the stern and It was a lovely day. And smoked a cigarette. One of the crew came along and we started chatting and during the conversation I said, ‘Oh, by the way when do we get to Bombay?’ And he said, ‘We’re not going to Bombay.’ So, I said, ‘Well, we’re posted to Bombay.’ He said, ‘Well, this boat’s not going to Bombay. It’s going to New York.’ So, I put down my cup and rushed, nearly got myself court martialled, into the CO‘s bedroom and woke him up. And he was a Colonel Blimp, you know, ‘What’s going on? What’s going on?’ I said, ‘Excuse me, sir.’ I said, ‘Do you know where we’re going?’ And he said, ‘Of course. We’re going to Bombay.’ I said, ‘I’ve just had a word with a member of the crew and he assures me we’re going to New York.’ ‘Get out. Get out,’ he said, ‘Get my clothes. Get out.’ So I got out quickly. I mean, I didn’t realise what I’d done. Rushing into the CO‘s bedroom and waking him up. But anyway two hours later he called us all to the Blue Room which had become the sergeant’s mess and he said there’d been a mistake made. We are in fact going to New York. So, that was my first cruise. Two weeks. He said, now, even in those days, that would be 1943 the ships had fridges, you know. And he said, ‘The fridges are full of chicken, beef, lamb, pork. The chefs are going to go mad and we’ve got some West African Rifles who have agreed to be your servants if you pay them.’ So there we were. Sergeants, being waited on for two weeks.
Other: Lovely.
CB: Was the ship largely empty, was it?
KT: No. No. It was, there was fifty of us. There was, I don’t know how many West African Rifles. Somebody must have known something. They were going back home on leave so why put them on that boat? And there was quite a few American. But we had to pay for it because at night, when you were in the bunk you could crack the bugs. And we were bitten all over, you know. Because the boat was going to be deloused.
CB: Was going to be but hadn’t been.
KT: That’s right.
Other: [unclear]
KT: It was going to New York to be de-loused.
CB: Oh I see. Oh right. What a nightmare. I’m going to stop you there just for a moment.
[recording paused]
CB: Right. Okay. So we’re recording again having had a previous break.
KT: Okay.
CB: But we’ve got as far as the Athlone Castle going to New York.
KT: When we arrived at America they just didn’t know what to do with us. And so they, we didn’t land in New York. We had to get over the side, down a rope ladder onto a lighter boat and they took us up the East River to Fort Slocum. Which was an American base on an island in the East River. And we were there for three weeks.
CB: What did you do there?
KT: Well, we got our pass at 10 o’clock in the morning and we used to get on the train. It was twenty five miles into New York and it took twenty five minutes. In those days. And then we had, we were then allowed out ‘til 23:59 the following day. So, we then got, as soon as we got to New York we found a hotel and we spent the rest of the day in New York. Two days in New York.
CB: Okay. So after that then what?
KT: Well, then we came back on the Louis Pasteur. The French boat. To Southampton. And I was posted to Llandwrog for advanced flying training.
CB: This is in North Wales.
KT: Yeah. And the weather was so bad we did the same run eight times. From chicken [unclear] to Fishguard to Pembroke. All over the sea because the weather was so bad.
CB: What aeroplane were you flying in then?
KT: Ansons.
CB: Right.
KT: Ansons. Yeah. From Llandwrog then we went to Lossiemouth and we had, we were there December, January and February. Very cold but lovely.
CB: This was the OTU?
KT: The OTU. Yeah. Yes.
CB: So how did you, when you got to the OTU what happened as soon as you arrived?
KT: Well, after we’d been there a few days we were all let out into the ballroom or whatever you call it and we just wandered around. And I saw a fellow coming up and I said, ‘I’m looking for a pilot,’ and he said, ‘I’m looking for a navigator.’ And that was the nucleus of our crew. And then the next day we — oh no, the same afternoon, there were two of us wandering about then. We saw a wireless operator and said, ‘We’re looking for a wireless operator,’ and he said, ‘Well, I’ve got a friend who’s a bomb aimer. He’s an Australian.’ So then we got a wireless operator and a bomb aimer. So there was four of us then. And then we, we found two of the smallest gunners I’ve ever seen. They only looked like little boys. But they were Canadian and they agreed to be our gunners. So, there was our six. But after a couple of flights they came to us and said would we mind if they left us? And they went to an all, all Canadian crew. So we said okay. And we had to wait a couple of days for two gunners to arrive and they became our gunners. Alf Broddle and Lefty. That’s it, he was Basil but we called him Lefty Orrick. Unfortunately he was one of them that got killed in the [pause] But I only escaped, you said something about escaping three times. I think what — you were talking to David were you?
CB: Well, can I come back to that? Because, absolutely. Yes.
KT: Only, I think what he means we were ambushed three times by Germans while I was on the run. I only, but of course we had a narrow escape. I think we’re over running the tale. A week before [drink being poured] Thank you. A week before I was shot down we, we went to bomb Caen. Now, our troops were held up at Caen and they wanted us to bomb the German lines which was only seven eighths of a mile from our own line so accuracy was the — so instead of the Pathfinders dropping flares our artillery fired coloured shells where they wanted us to drop the bombs. Now, these coloured shells didn’t last as long as our flares did. So they said, ‘If you’re going up on the run in and the lights go out, go through the target, don’t drop your bombs and come back but keep your bombs because we’re getting short of them.’ So, what we had to do because, because as we went up the lights went down. So we went through. Then we had to fly up north to get rid of the petrol because we couldn’t land with a full bomb load on. The all up weight was too much. And the petrol. So you had to get rid of the petrol and you couldn’t go over the sea and jettison the petrol out of a Halifax. You had to use it up. So we flew up to Scotland and back again. And we landed at Boscombe Down which was an experimental and it had a manual flare instead of an electric flare path. And the pilot was told to undershoot the landing tee. They put a coloured landing tee to show you where to come in. And so he undershot it [laughs] But too much really because I was getting up from my position to get into the rest position and I looked through the window just in time to see a telegraph pole which we took with us. Then we hit the railway van and then we took the telegraph pole on the other side. We just crashed then. And the plane of course was written off. It was. The fuselage was broken in three places. The four engines were torn out. The bombs had scattered everywhere. Two had become alive [laughs] and, and the next morning they found an American Grumman Martlet about a hundred yards away that had done exactly the same thing. And so that was a week before we, you know. A week or ten days. I’m not sure. I’m not quite sure. But that was Molescroft Maggie. That was our favourite plane. We did nineteen trips in Molescroft Maggie. And we called it Molescroft Maggie because she was M for Mother and our dispersal at Lossiemouth was very close to the village of Molescroft, so she became Molescroft Maggie.
CB: It’s interesting how these things arise isn’t it? So, come back to that. So, we’ve done the OTU.
KT: Yeah.
CB: And you changed crew during the HCU.
KT: Changed.
CB: OTU. The two gunners.
KT: Oh yes.
CB: That’s why you were —
KT: They only did two cross-country’s with us.
CB: Right. Okay.
KT: And then we had the new two.
CB: Okay. So when are we talking about then? What, what was the date of that? Near enough.
KT: It was nineteen [pause] it was, it was December. December ’43. January ’44 and February ’44.
CB: Okay. Then you go to Marston Moor.
KT: Marston Moor.
CB: For the HCU. So, you went straight there did you?
KT: Yes.
CB: Starting in March ’44.
KT: In between we did a commando course for three weeks at Driffield but I can’t remember whether it was before or after —
CB: Okay.
KT: Marston Moor. And at Marston Moor then we picked up our seventh crew member.
CB: Yeah. The engineer.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Why did you do a commando course?
KT: That was in the scheme of things. They did these sort of things. Well, it was [laughs] the idea was you did this commando course and at the end of it they put you in a bus and took you fifty miles away and dropped you off and you’ve got to make your own way back.
CB: Escape and evasion.
KT: That’s right.
CB: Yeah.
KT: And some of the things that [laughs] they’d pinch bicycles. They pinched cars. They pinched horses. But I had a brilliant idea because they dropped us on a pub car park. So we went into the pub. And every everybody, oh you know, ‘Have a drink.’ And I said, ‘Well, I noticed on the main road there’s a transport café. Anybody going down there?’ And a man said, ‘Yeah. I’m going down there in about five minutes.’ And so, let me see there was, our crew had been split up into two. I’d got, I don’t know, I’d got, I’d got two or three of the crew with me. And so we got in his car and we drove down to the main road and went into this transport café. And I asked about. ‘Anybody going near Driffield.’ And one of the lorry drivers said yes. Yeah. So we got in and we had a lift back. And I said, ‘Now look,’ I said, ‘You mustn’t stop outside the gate. Drive a bit further on and we’ll get out.’ So we got out and then we went to the back of the camp. Climbed over the fence, slept in our own beds. Got up the next morning, came back, walked in as if we’d [laughs]. But that’s the idea you see.
CB: Nobody sussed it.
KT: Pardon?
CB: Nobody sussed what you were doing.
KT: Oh No. No. No. No. So, that’s how we got back.
CB: So HCU.
KT: Pardon?
CB: So you get to the HCU. You got to the HCU and picked up the navigator err the engineer I mean to say because you’re the navigator.
KT: At Marston Moor.
CB: At Marston Moor. Yes.
KT: And then we transferred to —
CB: So at the HCU what did you do most of the time?
KT: Oh, we went on cross-country’s. You did so many day cross-country’s and so many night cross-country’s. And the pilot of course, he was under the instruction of the pilot he was taking over from and was transferring from two engines to four engines. For me it was just straightforward because although we were, they were a bit faster, I still, I still, my navigation was just the same.
CB: Did you have Gee already?
KT: Oh yeah.
CB: When you were at the OCU.
KT: Yes.
CB: OTU.
KT: Yes. Gee all the time.
CB: Yeah. Okay. And what about fighter affiliation? Did you do much of that?
KT: Oh, no. We did that at Lossiemouth.
CB: Right. Once you got to the, oh you did that. Right. Okay.
KT: Yeah. We were —
CB: When you were at the OTU.
KT: Yes. At Lossiemouth. When we came back. We always dropped an eleven pound smoke bomb and we were attacked by fighters. And you know the method?
CB: So, what was the method of the fighter affiliation experience?
KT: Well, I don’t, I wondered if you knew what it was.
CB: I don’t know, I don’t know how it worked.
KT: It was the corkscrew.
CB: Right. So, I know the corkscrew but would you describe it?
KT: Well, the, one of the gunners would say, ‘Corkscrew starboard go,’ and the pilot would then start and you see if you could, if he could see a fighter and start to corkscrew he couldn’t shoot you down. So that was why the gunner’s had, obviously had to keep their eyes open. But we were one of the first to be shot down by the German fighter that had a gun pointing up.
CB: The schräge musik.
KT: Pardon?
CB: The schräge musik. Yeah. The upward firing cannon.
KT: Yeah. We must have been one of the first.
CB: Where did, where did the, where did it hit you?
KT: Oh, the first shell cut a hole inside of the aircraft. No problems. The second shell went through the starboard outer. The starboard outer engine and set it on fire. And then there was a lull of a few, oh about a minute I would think. It was a long time. And the fourth shell took away the bomb, bomb bay I would think. But the fourth, the fourth shell went through one of the petrol tanks and then it was shhhh. One minute it was dark and the next minute it was just like daylight. And the pilot must have put the automatic pilot in which was somehow got, it wasn’t flying straight and level. It was flying in a circle. So, we all came down more or less in the same place.
CB: How do you know? How did you know that it was a schräge musik operation? Did you see the other fighter?
KT: No. No. I was under the impression. When I got back to England we were debriefed and the intelligence officer said, ‘You were shot down by light anti-aircraft on the railway that was directed by your H2S.’ And that was another thing I didn’t like the H2S for [laughs] But it seemed, it’s quite obvious that when we, when we worked it out it was, it was a night fighter.
CB: And did they talk about Scarecrow?
KT: Scarecrow. No.
CB: Are you familiar with the scarecrow? That was the way of describing, explaining how this was working. A high powered shell explosion.
KT: [unclear]
CB: They perhaps didn’t start using it at that stage.
KT: Oh we never had any —
CB: No. Because it wasn’t. It was because of the schräge music but —
KT: No. We never had that. We never had any training on parachutes.
CB: Oh right.
KT: We were just given a parachute. Told how to clip it on. Jump out, count to three, pull.
CB: Right.
KT: That was it.
CB: Okay. So, just going a bit earlier than that. When you joined the squadron what happened then? So, you got a new aeroplane?
KT: Oh well, yes. Now. Now. We then started [laughs] we got, we got, you’d got to do three cross-country day and three cross-country night and on one of the cross-country’s it was up in Scotland and they routed you very close to Scapa Flow who then started firing at you. Far enough away but giving you some idea of what anti-aircraft flak was like. And the night one was at Portsmouth. They did exactly the same thing. And, mind you we’d only done, let me see, I’d done, I think we’d got four. Four of each to do and we’d done about two of each when the pilot and I were walking across the base one day and we heard, ‘Pilots and navigators to the briefing room.’ That is the start of a raid. And then it said, ‘Sergeant Trueman and Sergeant Barr to the briefing room.’ So we thought well that’s funny, you know. So off we toddled to the briefing and there was an officer outside. And I said something like. ‘Ah’, he said, ‘You’re going tonight.’ I said, ‘But we’ve still got, we’ve still got some cross-country’s to do.’ ‘Ahh no,’ he said, ‘It’s an easy one tonight,’ he said, ‘So everybody’s going.’ And so when we saw the target it was at a place called Maisy. And it was right on the French coast. Just by Cherbourg. In fact, we were over enemy territory for six minutes. Just across the Cherbourg Peninsula. And the intelligence officer, in the briefing said, ‘There is one anti-aircraft gun in the area. That’s all.’ And that anti-aircraft put a shell right underneath us but not close enough to hit us. But the noise. And you’ve heard of people having cold feet. My feet were like two blocks of ice. And I said, ‘That’s me finished. I’m not coming again, I’ve had enough,’ [laughs] Anyway, I sat down and had a cup of tea and we started to come back up and we looked out there at all the little boats coming across. We could see them in the — when we got back to base we said, ‘The invasion’s on isn’t it?’ They didn’t know at the base that it was on. That’s how good the —
CB: Security.
KT: But then it was — we did five. Five trips in, in seven days. We went on the 5th and the 6th, 6th and the 7th, 9th and the 10th, 12th and 13th. So, from the 5th to the 14th we did five trips.
CB: Is this day time flying or night?
KT: Oh no. No. We did, we did twelve daylights. Thirteen night flights. Of course a lot of these are buzz bomb sites. Which I think you could really say were quite an easy because I mean you weren’t over the enemy territory for very long. They were just in Northern France you see. You know the buzz bombs.
CB: Absolutely. The V-1s. Yes.
KT: Yeah.
CB: So what success did you have in hitting those because it was quite a small target?
KT: Well, I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t know, I. All I did, all my job was to get them there and then the bomb aimer took over and he had to have a photograph. So, we always got the target. So long as you’d got a target to photograph you were okay. But actually what damage? The only one I know was, well two I know. They sent us, they sent just our squadron, 90, after a viaduct. Why they wanted to blow it. You know, a lovely viaduct. And what happened? It was a daylight and quite low and when, you couldn’t see where it had been after nineteen bombs had hit it. But the other one was a daylight raid. Villiers Bocage. Now there they were, the intelligence thought Rommel was there but they knew that the 12th Panzer division were in amongst the houses. So, they sent sixteen err six hundred bombers in daylight. Fairly low. About two to three thousand feet and we were luckily one of the first ones. We dropped our bombs, turned around and there we saw all these bombers coming, not towards us but to go because they took us up. And after, after three hundred had bombed the master bomber said, ‘Don’t drop any more bombs. There’s nothing left.’
CB: No.
KT: They never saw the 12th Panzer Division. So it must have been successful.
CB: Yeah. Fascinating.
KT: But the fourth raid we went on was, I mean I’m talking of seventy odd years ago and it’s still [pause] It was a place called Amiens. And we were coned by searchlights. Three. Three planes were coned. And my pilot he was marvellous. The second the lights came on he put the nose of the plane down and full power and dived down from sixteen thousand feet. Just dived out of the sky. And we were too fast. Too fast for them. They couldn’t get the lights down quick enough. And I thought, I thought when he pulls out of this the wings are going to fall off but they didn’t. But there we were then two thousand feet. It should have been sixteen thousand feet and we’ve got to come around then in to bomb. And all the bombs coming down. But anyway, we, we got our target indicator and that was that.
CB: So you thanked your lucky stars you hadn’t been hit by the people above.
KT: Well, yes. Quite a few people did. That happened to quite a few people.
CB: Did it?
KT: Yeah.
CB: Now, when you — two points. I’ll come back to initial briefing. But when you landed, the debriefing. What was the process then?
KT: When I landed?
CB: You’d done the raid. You’d done the raid. You’ve landed. You’re collected by the crew bus and go to the intelligence man.
KT: Yeah.
CB: To debrief you. How did that go?
KT: Well, you got out of the plane. Your bus came along and picked you up, took you into the briefing room and you sat around the table with one of the intelligence officers and you more or less went through the flight with him. Pointing out where heavy flak was. Which I had recorded. And any anything, anything that was a bit out of the ordinary was down in my log. And then you left there and went into the dining room and had bacon and egg.
CB: A great thing. Did the, because you’re the navigator you have to log the incidents. Did the other crew pass you incidents?
KT: Oh yes.
CB: To log.
KT: Yes.
CB: How did they do that?
KT: Intercom.
CB: Right. No. No. But how? Did they introduce it by just saying we’ve just done —
KT: Well, no. They, they’d just say it. The rear gunner would say there’s heavy flak on the starboard side. And I would note where we were and put it down.
CB: Right.
KT: They could always check back through my log. Just about where —
CB: Okay.
KT: With the time you see.
CB: Right. So fast backwards now. You said earlier that you and the pilot had been called for a briefing.
KT: Ah. Yes.
CB: So could you talk us through please.
KT: Yes.
CB: The briefing process and who and who wasn’t involved.
KT: Well, yes. Well, that is the pilot and the rear gunner. We go into the briefing room and there’s a big board and it said this is the target for tonight. And the intelligence officer will give you any information that they’d got. Where there’s heavy flak or where you are likely to get night fighters. Or you’re going over a mountain. Anything like that. Then you’d leave there. The pilot goes to his section. I go to my section. And then we’d go through and make a log of the raid. And then —
CB: That’s your plan for the raid is it?
KT: No. No.
CB: When you say the log for the raid —
KT: No. We made a route for the raid.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Oh no. We do two more after that.
CB: Yeah. Okay. Keep going.
KT: And you don’t tell the other crew. Only the pilot and the rear gunner the navigator.
CB: The navigator.
KT: Know.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Until about, just before we go into the main briefing. And then it’s, they know then. And then you come out of there and you go and have bacon and egg. You come out at the end. You go into the parachute section. Pick up your parachute. And that’s when my stomach used to go down in to my boots. Always, when, when I got into the bus to go out to the plane and then when you got out to the plane there was always an hour before you took off. And then the ground staff used to take, take your money off you because we used to play pitch and toss and they were better at it then we were. [laughs] You know pitch and toss, do you? Well, they put a ring and then so many yards and you’d toss a penny. And the one whose penny is near the middle of the ring has the first throw. All the heads it takes out until there was nothing left. And then you do it all over again. But they were much better at it than us. And then half an hour before we took off I used to get into the plane and the wireless operator used to give me the latest winds and I used to then work out the main log. You see a bomber doesn’t take off and go up like that. A bomber, fully loaded climbs very, very slowly and so he’s attacked by all the wind. So what you do, you take an average of all the winds at the various sites and you set a course using that wind. And then as soon as you take off after six minutes you take a fix and you find out whether you’re on course or off course. And you keep doing that.
CB: Okay. Just to clarify there. You’re talking there about different winds. So, what sort of levels would you expect there to be different winds at.
KT: Oh —
CB: Because the ground level wind is always different.
KT: It depends on what, it depends on whether it’s a high pressure system or a low pressure or how bad the storm is. Or whatever. It’s always different. And of course if they’ve got the winds wrong [laughs] Of course we had to get our winds on a plane flying out recording the wind velocity. It’s nothing like it is now.
CB: Okay. So could you describe how you measured the wind velocity? How did you do that?
KT: Well, it’s speed and direction. You know, the intelligence would give you the winds coming from the north. It was degrees. It wouldn’t say just north. It would be in degrees.
CB: So you’d be steering. You’d be steering a particular course on the basis of the briefing and then you would take an assessment.
KT: Well, yeah.
CB: As to where you had actually got to. Is that —
KT: If they said the wind is coming from this direction. So, you’d use that, but after a bit you’d find that instead of being blown over there you were over there so the wind read was coming from this way. It was easy when you know what you’re doing.
CB: Sure. okay. So you take off and it takes a long time to go up.
KT: Oh yes.
CB: You’re not going straight out to the North Sea are you? So what are you doing?
KT: Well, no. We, they used to bring us all together over Reading. And the people of Reading got fed up with it. Night after night, all these bombers coming together and then — but it depended where the, just where the target was.
CB: What speed were you cruising at?
KT: Oh, we cruised about, about a hundred and sixty.
CB: So, when your pilot put the nose down on the incident you were talking about. How fast do you think —
KT: Oh, I haven’t got the foggiest.
CB: Do you think you were going?
KT: I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t know. It was just, it only lasted a few minutes. I mean I didn’t check what speed we were doing. I was just waiting for the wings to fall off. Yeah.
CB: So, can we just go back now to what you mentioned earlier. Your, you were shot down on which raid? The twenty-fifth?
KT: Yes.
CB: Right. So what happened there?
KT: Pardon?
CB: What happened?
KT: Well,—
CB: Which part of the run were you? Before dropping?
KT: Pardon?
CB: Before the dropping of the bombs or afterwards?
KT: Oh no. We’d dropped the bombs.
CB: Right.
KT: It was uncanny because we were hardly off course at all. I mean you were always off course. You always had to correct. Correct. But we just sailed through. Dropped our bombs sixteen thousand feet.
CB: Excuse me. Where was the target?
KT: Oh, the target was at Rüsselsheim. It was the Opel Motor Works.
CB: Right.
KT: They were making the V-2 rocket there.
CB: Right.
KT: We did our two minutes off the target, two minutes to port and then a course for home. And I don’t know how long it was afterwards but they brought us down from sixteen thousand feet to six thousand feet in a fairly sharp dive to fool the night fighters. And we, as I say, we just, we’d just more or less levelled out when we were hit by the first two shells. And I mean although they were, I mean if we’d have been hit by the flak, the anti-aircraft we wouldn’t have been here now. But they were smaller shells and that’s why I think it was the fighter. Not the —
CB: Not anti-aircraft fire.
KT: No.
CB: Flak.
KT: But the noise. There was no end of explosions. It was unbelievable. And I didn’t hear the order to bale out. I was busy working out where we were. And the first out, I realised. I mean, I knew it was just like daylight and the plane was on fire. I mean, it was quite obvious we were going to have to bale out. But I didn’t hear the order to bale out. The first thing I knew was a tap on my shoulder. The bomb aimer was giving me my parachute which I put on. I sat on the escape hatch. He took the escape hatch out and dropped it. I don’t know who got that out. He jumped out and then I jumped out afterwards.
CB: Where was the escape hatch on the Halifax?
KT: Right at the, [pause] you know the wings.
CB: Near the nose or in the middle? Near the nose or in the middle?
KT: No. It was towards the nose. But there were two. There was the door and then of course the rear gunner could either swivel his turret around and back out or come out in to the fuselage. I don’t know. All I know is that I had all the luck in the world. When I jumped out I could see a series of, and don’t forget it only took a few seconds. Well, not very long to get down from six thousand feet. And I saw a ring of fires. Little bonfires and I wondered what was going on. I knew I was drifting. I knew I was going backwards but I hadn’t any idea how to turn myself around. And I thought, well when my feet hit the ground the next thing that was going to hit the ground was my head. But I needn’t have worried because my feet touched the ground and then my parachute caught up a tree and I eventually finished up my head was about a foot off the ground and as I lay there with, I hadn’t got a breath. A man came along and he said, ‘Camarade.’ And I looked up at him and I said, ‘I’m English.’ ‘Angleterre,’ he said. He picked me up and kissed me on both cheeks. And I had fallen into the field where they were expecting supplies.
CB: SOE.
KT: Couldn’t have been more luckier than that could you?
CB: Right. So then what?
KT: Well, then it was a question of walking from one house to another and we just walked for hours. It was 1 o’clock in the morning when I got down. At 5 o’clock I’d been to about three houses because they’d already got one of my crew there. I finished up in the loft of a cottage that was all, you know boarded out and very comfortable and I just laid down and went to sleep. And they woke me up. That was 5 o’clock and they woke me up at 8 o’clock and took me downstairs. And they gave me a bowl of water with about that much water in it to have a wash with. And then they gave me my breakfast which consisted of a piece of bacon without any lean on at all. Just. And an egg that had been put in the pan and taken out. That was my breakfast. Then, then the fun began. The baker came to see me. The vicar came to see me. The policeman came to see me. The postman came to see me. All sorts of people came to see me and every time they came I had to have a little, like a thimble full of white. And I didn’t drink in those days. But oh no, you can. And by 12 o’clock I could hardly stand up.
CB: This was Advocaat was it?
KT: Pardon?
CB: This was Advocaat?
KT: No. It was —
Other: White wine was it?
KT: Pardon?
Other: Was it white wine?
KT: No. It was white spirit.
Other: Oh.
KT: No. It was, I don’t know what it was but oh. Then they took me outside and that was even worse then when the sun came up. But they took me across the garden. Oh. The door suddenly burst open. Three men came in. I thought this is the Gestapo, you know. But it turned out they were the Maquis and they said, ‘Come on,’ with the guns. Outside we went. Had to go down the garden. Down a path to the end of a country lane where there was a lorry and in the lorry were two of my crew. All the rest were Maquis people and they were the recognised army then. They’d got their uniforms on. It was a band with the colours on. And we drove through the streets of Ciney. And it was a tipper lorry really so I could look over the side. And there were the German officers walking up the road with their girlfriends on their arm. I thought this is amazing. And these men were, got their guns and they didn’t take, they didn’t [laughs] Anyway, we got to our first camp which was a group of gypsies had formed a Maquis group and strangely enough they’d captured the German station master. And he walked about freely. He didn’t want to be, he was quite happy to be with them. He was a civilian mind you so, but he’d been captured and as I say he was quite happy to. Oh dear. We had a party then. Everybody had to sing. Then they found us a little tent with some straw and the four of us, the three of us went to sleep in there. And at 2 o’clock in the morning they woke us up and they took us then to our, the camp that was going to be the group. The Chief, who we knew as Chief Tom had been educated at Winchester College so he spoke perfect English. And his brother-in-law was a, they used to come over to Scotland shooting the deer prior to the war starting. So there were — that’s how we started then. And we used to cut down telegraph poles. Anything to upset the Germans. But not to kill any because if we killed any they took it out on the villagers and the villagers fed us. So, we had to be — because we were in the woods you see. The Ardennes. You know the Ardennes?
CB: Absolutely. Yes.
KT: So —
CB: So when you were there then — how long were you with them?
KT: Well, I’d got. We [pause] let me see. First of all we went out we went out on a raid to blow up a train and unfortunately — see they weren’t trained at all. They had no, they were all young lads and men that had had formed this Maquis group because they didn’t want to be sent to Germany for working, you know. So there was no discipline. And the man in charge, we’d all gone in to the signal box I think it was. The stupidest thing. And we then saw seven Germans coming along so we got out of the signal box and it was in there that the lines were down here and the banks went up and we got on top of the banks and the Germans started firing at us. And then we made a quick retreat. That was the first time we — but the second time we wanted to move camp. So we wanted to steal a lorry to put our, what cooking utensils we’d got. And we set up our Bren. We had a Bren gun. Well, I had a Sten gun and two hundred rounds and a grenade which I kept in my pocket. And as I walked it rubbed. Rubbed the skin off. Anyway, I never used it. But a lorry, two lorries came along. We stopped them and there was about forty Germans in there. [laughs] So, we were in trouble. The bullets started to fly but there again we were on a bank. The bullets were going over the top and we were down here. They couldn’t hit us unless you put your head up which we didn’t. And after, oh a quite long time everything went quiet. And we got a New Zealand lad named Till . By this time we’d collected other, you know, other, other RAF. He said to the man next to him, ‘What’s happening?’ And they had a word which they used quite often. Kaput. You could use this word on everything and this man said, ‘The Germans kaput.’ What he meant was, ‘Germans kaput. Keep down.’ But Till thought he meant they’d capitulated and he stood up. And the bullets just cut him down to ribbons. So, we had to get out. So we wandered around for two or three days in to the woods. Our group had been split up. Eventually we, we found one of the Belgian lads and he said, ‘We’re going to go to a place just outside [Maison?] where they’ve got a farm. We’re going there.’ So, we went to this farm. They were using the farm as an orphanage and we were in the cow shed which had luckily been cleaned out. And so there were twenty four of us. Or rather twenty of us. Four were in the house. They were ill so, and we were woken up one morning at 6 o’clock. It was a, it was the [pause] let me see it would be, it would be the 10th. It was the 10th of September. 6 o’clock we were woken up. ‘Shhh,’ and we looked out and let me, if this, this is the farm and the cow shed was up here. There was a road here. And the Germans were going around like that. They were going. If they’d have come this way they’d have caught us all but as they were going that way.
CB: They went around the far side of the farm.
KT: We got out. We ran across this field here . And we were halfway across the field before they realised and started firing. And, you know, if there’s bullets at the back of you it’s amazing how quick you can run.
CB: And you’re all the aircrew because the Maquis are not with you now, are they?
KT: No. Oh yes. Oh no, it was all aircrew. That included the complete crew of a Flying Fortress. No. There would be two or three Belgian men. Mainly aircrew. And of course once we got to the top and started to go down the other side they couldn’t fire at us any more. So we ran down the hill. And there was a river I suppose it would be, about as wide as this garden and twenty bods jumped in. Three strokes and on the other side. And we were in the woods then and we were okay. And I remember sitting on a log. Soaking wet. Hadn’t had a cup of tea. Hadn’t had any breakfast. Thinking, you know, this is freezing cold although it was August err September.
CB: 1944.
KT: 1944. If you’re soaking wet all your tobacco’s wet. And about 12 o’clock, after six hours in the woods then the, one of the Belgian lads said, ‘I’m going into the village to see if I can find out.’ And I think went about 12 o’clock. Two hours later we heard a tank coming into the woods. Prior to that the shells had been going that way. Then shells coming this way. Then shells going that way. So, we knew that there was a, an American tank column close by. And as I say, 2 o’clock we heard this tank coming in to the woods and we thought well, you know, we’ve had enough now, walking about [unclear]. And it turned out to be an American jeep without a silencer. Two Americans. They gave us all Cognac and cigarettes and you can imagine the effect. Cognac and cigarettes on somebody that’s hadn’t had anything to eat. Anyway, two more, two more jeeps arrived and we all got into the jeeps. Took us into the village and we were behind the American lines then. And then our problems started.
CB: Really?
KT: Well, we’d got to get to Paris for the, to the Hotel Maurice. Or Maurice they called it. That’s where the escapees were. And, but everything was going this way and we wanted to go that way [laughs] but eventually we got to a place where there was six American lorries going back. Directly back to Paris. And we each got in one of these lorries. Four of us. And two days. It took us two days. Wonderful. We used to wake up in the morning and I slept on the back of the lorry in his fold up bed. He slept in the cab across the seats. The driver. A lovely fella, I never. And he got plenty of cigarettes and he’d got plenty of food. He’d got a little primer stove. We made coffee. We cooked bacon. The Germans knew, the Americans knew about food. I mean the bacon was in tins. It was loaded with lard you know so that it was easy to fry. And at lunchtime we had corned beef hash. We lived like lords for two days. And we got back to this hotel. And you can imagine I hadn’t had my clothes off for five weeks and I didn’t smell very good at all. And my clothes. But the first thing we wanted was a shower. We couldn’t have one. They hadn’t got any water. [laughs] They’d just got enough water to cook with. So we couldn’t even have a wash. But what they did they took all our clothes off us and gave us an American suntan. They call their, their, it’s like khaki. So I had a shirt and a pair of trousers. Some underwear. I had to keep my own boots on though. And the next day we flew back from Orly Airport to London. We arrived at 12 o’clock at night at Hendon and they put us through customs [laughs]. I mean it’s true.
CB: Fancy running customs in the war.
KT: It’s true. We had to go through customs. We’d been missing for five weeks. Had to go through customs. Then we got into the dining room and we were offered cold sausage and mash. And we told them what to do with it. So that was it. So then I wanted to phone. So I went into the ballroom of this, we were at the Central Hotel at Marylebone. Went into the ballroom where there was one phone and the queue went right around [laughs] So I didn’t bother. The next day we went for debriefing and that was it.
CB: So they took you somewhere else for debriefing did they?
KT: Yeah. Yes. I don’t know where it was.
CB: And there, did they send you back to Leconfield or did you go home?
KT: No. No. No. No, I immediately went on indefinite leave.
CB: Right.
KT: Which only lasted ten days. And as I say then I had a problem then because I had this letter to say I was a pilot officer. But when I got to Morecambe I had to wait until the papers come through. But by that time I’d left and gone to Nairn and I had to wait at Nairn.
CB: So, just to —
KT: Pardon?
CB: Just to clarify that. Why did they send you to Morecambe? What happened there?
KT: It was just a place to, I don’t know. They, somewhere to go. I mean we didn’t do anything. And then we didn’t do anything at, at Nairn. And eventually they sent us from Nairn on leave again. But I had my pass made out to London. And so when I, I got off at Birmingham. The next day I went down, down to London. To Bush House. I walked in to Bush House and was immediately thrown out by a warrant officer. And I walked back in and I said, ‘Before you can say anything I’m a commissioned officer and I want my papers.’ Oh. That altered things. And they rushed me through and got my papers and gave me my coupons. You wouldn’t know anything about coupons. Clothing coupons. And sent me back home and I went to, I got my uniform made. Well, yeah I got my uniform at one of the big shops in Birmingham and from there, let me see. Where did I go to from there? [pause] Oh, I went to Fauld at Burton on Trent. Or did I? It’s getting a bit vague now. But anyway I eventually finished up at Halfpenny Green at Wolverhampton as an instructor. And I was able to live at home from there. I used to go in like every morning. It was like office work.
CB: So, why didn’t they send you back to the squadron? Was there a policy?
KT: Well, I wouldn’t be able to fly over Germany because I was an escapee. And they, so that was my ops finished. I eventually got another [pause] a letter to say that I was due to go back on ops but that would have been in Japan or something like that. But of course they dropped the atomic bombs before that could happen.
CB: Just to get the chronological order here. When you came back from Paris — when are we talking about? Are we talking about before Christmas ’44 or after Christmas or when?
KT: No. I came back —
CB: Because you were shot down in September.
KT: On the 13th of September.
CB: Yeah. So how long before you came back from Paris?
KT: Well, I, I got behind the American lines on the 10th. It took two days to get to Paris. Then the third day. So we’re talking about the 13th or 14th and I came —
CB: Of October or November?
KT: Pardon?
CB: October or November.
KT: No. September.
CB: Yeah. But you were shot down on the 13th of September.
KT: No. 13th of August.
CB: Oh. The 13th of August. Right. Okay. Yeah.
KT: So, it was —
CB: So, you got back on the —
KT: Yeah. I was back and they sent me home on leave from there.
CB: Okay.
KT: From London.
CB: Yeah.
KT: That was my ops finished you see.
CB: Yeah. So at Halfpenny Green you were dealing, you were training navigators.
KT: That’s right.
CB: Or something else.
KT: Yeah. We marked their, we marked their logs.
CB: And how long did you do that for?
KT: About twelve months I think.
CB: Right. Okay. So, you mentioned earlier flying in a Dakota. How did that come about?
KT: I flew back from Orly Airport in a Dakota.
CB: Right. But you weren’t operational on Dakotas.
KT: Oh no. No.
CB: Okay.
KT: No.
CB: Okay. Right. So from Halfpenny Green we’re now talking about — that’s in ’44.
KT: Yeah.
CB: So, the war in Japan was over in August ’45.
KT: Yeah.
CB: How much longer were you in the RAF?
KT: Oh dear. I did [pause] Halfpenny Green then closed down. And I had the job of posting all the ground crew. Oh [laughs] what a job that was. Some of them had been there all during the war. Lived at home. Didn’t want to be posted anywhere. Because they, people used to, I used to get the information that such and such a camp wanted a sergeant and I used to send a sergeant there. Post him there.
CB: A ground crew sergeant.
KT: Pardon?
CB: A ground crew sergeant.
KT: All ground crew.
CB: Yeah.
KT: Yeah. All ground. I hadn’t anything to do with aircrew. Not posting aircrew. I’m just trying to think where else I was [pause] Because I left. Oh, I know what it was. I finished up, I I was posted to Sutton Coldfield which was a, I think it was 41 Group. It was a stores. And what did I do there? Oh that’s right. I was promoted to flight lieutenant and put in charge of the EVT. Educational Vocational Training. And that’s what I did. It was my job then to find jobs for, or courses rather for WAAFs and anybody. I mean, find WAAFs a cookery course or a sewing course or something like that. And I was there for six months. And from there I was given my marching orders at Wembley Park.
CB: When was that?
KT: That was in ’46.
CB: What time?
KT: Pardon?
CB: What time of year?
KT: Oh, I couldn’t tell you.
CB: Roughly.
KT: I haven’t got the foggiest idea now. I can’t tell you. I should think it would be summer somewhere.
CB: Yeah. Okay. Shall we have a break because you’ve done brilliantly. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Well, I’ve got some cake for you in the car.
KT: Pardon?
CB: Do you like cake?
KT: Oh no. I won’t have anything to eat. No.
CB: Okay.
KT: That would spoil my tea.
CB: We just thought you might like some Victoria sponge you see. So —
[recording paused]
KT: Promoted to squadron leader but it meant my commission was a wartime commission.
CB: VR.
KT: But I could have had a permanent commission. I was called in to the adjutant‘s office and offered this rank of squadron leader. But it meant I would be posted to Hong Kong. Well, I had been in the forces six, six years. We’d got a young daughter by this time and I didn’t think it was fair that I should, I’d be posted again so I turned it down. Unfortunately, what he didn’t tell me was that had I have gone my wife could have come over after about six months. Whether she would have wanted to I don’t know. She wasn’t that type really. So I, by and large I think I did the right thing, you know. But I loved the RAF. If you took to it you had a good time. If you didn’t like it you didn’t have a very good time because some people just couldn’t take it, you know.
CB: So people who couldn’t take it.
KT: They were always in trouble.
CB: Right.
KT: But they wouldn’t get on very far, you know.
CB: But what about LMF?
KT: LMF.
CB: Did you get any of that?
KT: Lack of moral fibre.
CB: Yes.
KT: We only had one. Don’t forget I was only on the squadron sixty eight days and in that time I did twenty five. We set off on twenty seven. But —
CB: Trips. Yeah. So, did you know about or you only had one did you say?
KT: Yeah.
CB: Circumstance you knew about. What was that?
KT: He just —
CB: Was it on your squadron?
KT: Yeah. He, he turned back. He’d set off on a raid. He’d come back for various reasons and, you know they soon realised that he’d —
CB: Was this the pilot or the navigator?
KT: He was the pilot.
CB: So what did they do to him?
KT: Well, they had, they had a station where they sent them to. I don’t know. I don’t know.
CB: Was he commissioned or an NCO?
KT: Oh yeah. I think. Yeah.
CB: Because they had the habit of parading people in front of the squadron. The station.
KT: No. They didn’t do that. They didn’t do that in this case.
CB: What affect did that have? His removal. On the rest of the crews?
KT: Well, it didn’t. It didn’t make any difference by, you know, after a time you get, you get hardened to it I think. You don’t think about it. You don’t think it’s you. Ever going to happen to you.
CB: As a crew then how did you get on together?
KT: Oh, we were marvellous. Only one [pause] let me see. There was one. Only one of us didn’t smoke. All the rest smoked. And so because of that we didn’t smoke in the plane. Lots of crews smoked. We didn’t. It wouldn’t have been fair anyway on the, our wireless operator didn’t. He didn’t smoke so —
CB: But it was actually forbidden to smoke in the plane but people still did. Is that right?
KT: Oh yes. I’m sure they did. We had one funny at Lossiemouth. We were going out on the cross-country and suddenly the pilot said, ‘My flying instructor’s coming with us today.’ And then my navigator instructor, he said, ‘I’m coming with you today.’ I never thought anything. But as we were on the way back he said, ‘Give me, give us a course for Stornoway.’ And so I said, you know, ‘What’s going on?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The wireless has broken down and we’re not to fly back without the wireless.’ I said, well I said, ‘We can see the base.’ [laughs’ I said, ‘We can almost see Lossiemouth from here.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘We’re going to stay at Stornoway.’ They wanted the night out you see [laughs] So, we landed at Stornoway and [laughs] I don’t know.
CB: And when you were, as a crew you were all in the same Nissen hut were you?
KT: Yeah. Oh yes. We —
CB: So what was that like?
KT: Pardon?
CB: What was that like?
KT: Oh, it was marvellous. We were a good crew because we, strangely enough not one of us used bad language. Now, that’s amazing. As I say six of us smoked but we wouldn’t smoke in the plane. And we got on well. We were all, we were six good friends. You’ll have to excuse me.
CB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Okay.
KT: Ordered to bale out. I was the second one.
CB: The second one out of the aircraft.
KT: Yeah. My escape hatch.
CB: Yeah.
KT: I presume the wireless operator would go out of the same one. Now, the others would go out of the entrance of the side of the plane.
CB: Right.
KT: I know that the flight, the flight engineer handed the parachute to the pilot. He said he handed it to the pilot. And I can only presume that the pilot went down the plane to see if everybody was — this is the sort of man he was. I’m only presuming this. I don’t know. And he found the rear gunner was either injured or trapped in his turret but they both went down with the plane. They were both killed and that’s the only thing I could — we had plenty of time to get out.
CB: But he was struggling, you think, to release the rear gunner.
KT: Yeah. I don’t know. As I say because I can remember the plane going around in the circle. I could see light. So, he had plenty of time to get out. It doesn’t take long to get out of an aircraft.
CB: So, did the plane then blow up or did it gradually go down?
KT: I don’t know. I never found out.
CB: You didn’t see it.
KT: I never found out. I went back to Ciney. We were, I did a lot of caravanning after the war. My wife and I were very very keen on it and we were coming back from Italy and I said to her, I said, ‘You know, if we went out of our way just a little bit and went a day early we could go to where I was shot down.’ And so that’s what we did. But we couldn’t find anybody interested in. Nobody knew anything about the Maquis at all. And I was just, this was at the Council House there. And I was just about to leave when one of the older men came and said, ‘If you come back here tomorrow at 10 o’clock,’ he said, ‘I’ll put you in touch with the Baron, Baron [ de Boert?] who was the second in command. I found out that the Chief Tom had died and his wife. His wife incidentally was the liaison officer between the Maquis and Britain. But they’d both died. But the Baron was still alive and so we went back to the Council Offices the next day and this man got him on the phone. The Baron. And he said, ‘Oh, come along and see me.’ So, we went. We went and had a day with the Baron. And then I went back again on [pause] with the, with the Lottery. Hero. They called it “Heroes Return.” They paid for me and my partner then. My wife had died. And we went back and the Baron had died. But his wife was there. So, we spent another day. But I went to see where my two lads, I still call them lads now, are buried. They’re buried at a little place called Hotton, near Marche. Very very, you know, quiet — they look after the war graves.
CB: Is it in a War Graves Cemetery?
KT: Pardon?
CB: Was it a War Graves Cemetery?
KT: Yeah. And while I was over at —
CB: How is it spelled? Hotton.
KT: I went to see the grave of my grandfather who was killed on the Somme during the First World War.
CB: So what were the ages of your crew?
KT: Well —
CB: The signaller was how old? Ezra.
KT: Well, Dennis Barr was twenty two. Bernie Harken was thirty two. Bill Ezra was thirty. The two gunners were nineteen. And the —
CB: Engineer.
KT: The flight engineer was twenty.
CB: So, he was Goddard?
KT: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. What’s his first name?
KT: [laughs]
CB: Doesn’t matter.
KT: It’ll come to me.
CB: Yeah. Okay. So the rear gunner was the chap who was killed.
KT: And the pilot.
CB: And the pilot. Yeah. And Broddle —
KT: Pardon?
CB: Broddle was the rear gunner. Broddle it says here.
KT: Yes. No. It was another one.
CB: What was his name?
KT: No. They’ve got it wrong. Alf Broddle was the mid-upper gunner.
CB: Oh right.
KT: And Orrick was the rear gunner
CB: What was his first name? Orrick, B.
KT: Basil
CB: Basil. And Goddard was A.
KT: Arthur.
CB: Arthur.
KT: That’s it.
CB: Okay. Just some quick things. You were married early on and it must have been a bit of a strain being away from your wife. How did you deal with that? Were you able to see her much?
KT: No.
CB: She was in Birmingham was she?
KT: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, naturally I missed her. And I was always glad to get home on leave. But, I don’t know, somehow I never thought of being, about being killed or anything like that. It never struck me.
CB: Well, how did she feel about the whole experience?
KT: Well, she, she was like of other girls then. Their husband or sweethearts were in the forces and that was it. They got on with it, you know. For them it was a question of coupons and rations and I never had anything like that. I didn’t know anything about rationing.
CB: No.
KT: Coupons.
CB: No. So what did she do in the war? Did she have to work in armaments or what did she do?
KT: Well, she worked for her father in [pause] they had a factory. He owned a factory that did the hardening, tempering and plating for the Air Force —
CB: And how many other of the crew were married?
KT: None.
CB: Right.
KT: I was the only one.
CB: After the war Ken, what did you do?
KT: Oh, after the war I started up on my own as a carpenter. Well, maintenance work really. And I did that until I got some sense. In other words I realised that people just didn’t pay. In those days if you did a job for anybody you did the work and you sent them a bill. And at the end of the month you sent them a statement. At the end of the second month you sent them a second statement. At the end of the third month — and this is how it went on. Eventually you had to go around and sometimes they’d give you something. And I realised I was flogging a dead horse so I got myself a job as a, for one of my customers. He’d got five shops and he wanted somebody to do the maintenance work at the shops. And so he offered me a job which I couldn’t refuse. And provided me with a little van. And that went on for a couple of years. Three. Three or four years until he, he got very fond of the ladies. And his wife set a private detective on him. I realised that the firm was going to come to a nasty end so I got myself a job as a rep. And eventually I finished up as the area manager for a plant hire company. And I worked for them until I retired.
CB: When did, when did you become a rep? When?
[pause]
KT: Let me see. I did ten years on my own. Seven. So ’46, ’56. About ’63.
CB: Good. Thank you very much. Well we’ve covered a very wide range. I’d just like to thank you.
KT: Yeah.
CB: Very much. For everything you’ve done there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Kenneth William Trueman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ATruemanKW150921
Format
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01:42:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Kenneth William Trueman volunteered for the RAF and was called up in 1941. After training in South Africa, he served as a navigator with 640 Squadron and speaks of his preference for the Gee navigation aid rather than H2S. His operations included bombing the site of V-1s. He describes how on his twenty-fifth operation his plane was one of the first to be shot down by a German night fighter with a gun pointing upwards (also known as schräge musik). He baled out and he and four of his crew were rescued by the Maquis resistance forces and he tells of going on raids with them and evading German forces. He was repatriated by American forces and then served as an instructor. After the war he returned to carpentry. He later visited the area of his crash and met with a surviving Maquis leader and also visited the War Graves Cemetary where his other two crew members are buried.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
South Africa
United States
England--Yorkshire
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
France--Ardennes
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942-06-06
1943
1944-06-06
1944-06-05
1944
640 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crash
crewing up
evading
final resting place
Gee
H2S
Halifax
lack of moral fibre
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Leconfield
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Lossiemouth
Resistance
shot down
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/316/3473/PPennLE1701.1.jpg
824abb2c2b7f455b204aa46be93d7f9a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/316/3473/APennL170622.1.mp3
0620d580b7438a89e75829dd538816b6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Penn, Lawrence
L Penn
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Lawrence Penn (b. 1922, 413929 Royal Australian Air Force) his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 226 Squadron part of the Second Tactical Air Force.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Lawrence Penn and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Penn, L
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean MaCartney, the interviewee is Lawrence or Lorrie Penn. The interview is taking place at Mr Penn’s home in Mosman, New South Wales, on the 22nd of June 2017. Also present is Mister Penn’s wife June. Ok, Lorrie, I’ve look at some details on your background and I see you were born in Cremorne.
LP: Yes, I do.
JM: And indeed as we were having a little chat to start with before we started the interview, you mentioned you were born in Cremorne,
LP: Cremorne, yes.
JM: In Murdock Street,
LP; In Murdock Street.
JM: In what street, yes, so that was obviously at home
LP: It was a proper hospital in those days but not now of course
JM: A proper hospital back then, was it? Right. No, ok, and that was in December 1922?
LP: That’s right. 27th, two days after Christmas, it was a dreadful time to be born.
JM: Indeed, indeed. And, did the family live round here so that you then went to school around here?
LP: Yes, I did at Cremorne initially then we, after about six years of age we went to Adelaide and then we went up to Cairns and then down to Coffs Harbour so I had, it was after I came back from Coffs Harbour that I had a couple of years at Trinity College and then went to Shore for three or four years,
JM: Right.
LP: And finished my education there.
JM: Finished at Shore, ok. In moving around, quite a bit of the countryside there in just what you’ve said, how did you find different parts of Australia? Do you have any particular memories that stand out for you in your early years of going around the countryside at all?
LP: Oh, I enjoyed it all, perhaps that’s where I gave them my interest in overseas, finding out what was going on overseas.
JM: And did you keep any friends at all down the track from those early years or?
LP: No, probably, as a country down from the other states but from Shore School lifelong.
JM: Right, yes.
LP: Just about, I outlasted them all I was [unclear]
JM: Yes, I guess that would be getting almost to the case now and so you did your intermediate at Shore.
LP: Yes, I did.
JM: And then
LP: And then left Shore and went into a bank as a bank clerk there until the war began.
JM: Right. Did you do leaving certificate as well?
LP: No, no.
JM: Just intermediate.
LP: Just intermediate.
JM: Intermediate, right, ok. And so you left, well before we go into your banking role, were you involved in sports or?
LP: Usual things.
JM: School.
LP: Yeah. Football and cricket. The main, think I did a bit of tennis.
JM: Bit of tennis, yeah. And around where were you living with you going to Shore were you sort of in this area or?
LP: Yeah, yes.
JM: Yes.
LP: Still Cremorne, Southern Street. Cremorne.
JM: Cremorne, ok. And so, did you then go to scouts or Air League or anything?
LP: In the school cadets, school cadets and after I left school I didn’t join, I just did tennis club after school.
JM: Tennis club, right, ok. And then into, let me think, so then you would have been probably started work being then in the Depression years.
LP: It’s been about 1938, ’37, ’38 when I left school and went straight into getting a job with the bank.
JM: Ah, yes, that’s true, that’s true, yes, so you were still at school in the Depression years potentially.
LP: I was in Coffs Harbour I think during [unclear].
JM: Coffs Harbour, right. Ok.
LP: My father was a theatre manager.
JM: Oh, ok, so.
LP: That’s why we went from state to state virtually and then when he retired, he finished up writing The picture show man, his experience because his father was also started off producing, not producing films, but showing films all around the rural areas up the North Coast there.
JM: Right, right.
LP: And my dad wrote a résumé of what happened to his youth and so forth and they made a movie out of it, they called The Picture Show Man.
JM: That’s right, that’s right, indeed. Uhm, so that would have been, picture shows would have been very much a discretionary expenditure so with the Depression that would have been quite a tough going for your father.
LP: It was tough going, yes. He was educated mainly in Tamworth there, in Tamworth, lovely town up the North Coast.
JM: Indeed. So, then when you, the family, your father retired, then is that when you came back to Sydney?
LP: Yes, well, Dad entered the army when the war started out, entered the army as a private and finished up as a Major, going through Lieutenant Colonel when he was finally discharged and Dad had a bit of trouble, just trouble and he had, he was medically discharged then.
JM: Ok. And, so then you went into the bank when you left school?
LP: Yes.
JM: And which bank was that?
LP: It was called the English Scottish and Australian Bank then,
JM: Yes.
LP: But it’s the ANZ now.
JM: ANZ, yes, the Esanda, wasn’t it its original name, the Esanda?
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yes.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes, that’s right. Ok, so, you were, whereabouts were you based in the bank? Were you in the city or just?
LP: The first job was at the Spit Junction.
JM: Spit Junction?
LP: Yes [laughs] Very handy.
JM: Oh, ok, very handy, very handy.
LP: And then I went to the hill office after a year and a bit, to King George Street in the city of Sydney and did a little bit of relieving going to different banks when they were on holiday, the South was on holidays. I wasn’t very high up in the bank at all.
JM: Oh, you were only fairly young at this stage, I mean, Goodness gracious!
LP: [laughs] But, no, it is a dreadful thing to say but it was a fortunate thing for me was that the war started really because it made such a, I wouldn’t have met June.
JP: No. [laughs]
JM: Well, I think there are a lot of
LP: Because I met June in New York in, June was a child evacuee from England and she was only seventeen when I met her and I was nineteen and I just got my wings in Canada and we went to New York on leave
JM: On leave, yes.
LP: And met her there. Well, she met me really, because she picked me out a crowd of
JP: I was having lunch in this Hotel Edison and they asked me, the management, who would I like from that group of airmen over there, who could just come and have lunch with us. And I looked at all the faces and I picked Lorrie.
JM: Oh my Goodness gracious!
JP: He was invited over to have lunch with us
JM: Oh my goodness!
JP: We were both [unclear] management.
LP: We had only about a week to leave in New York. Then I went over across to England on the Queen Elizabeth then and of course won the war [?] over there but of course we didn’t have any correspondence between us for two years. It was just by accident that I met June when they, [unclear] girls were brought back to England after being evacuated.
JM: Right. We will come to a bit more detail about that shortly let’s just, you’ve got a little bit of to, we’ve got to go from your, when you were with the bank and then the war started and so then you enlisted, in September ’41, I see,
LP: That’s right.
JM: So, where, at Bradfield Park, I can see this, so that’s the normal enlisting place for most people there?
LP: Yes.
JM: So, and you did nearly three months at Bradfield Park.
LP: That’s right.
JM: But perhaps before I go a bit further, what made, was there any particular factor that caused you to actually go into the, choose the Air Force to enlist into or?
LP: I was always interested in flying. I remember Dad showed me a free joyride trip to an aircraft that was doing some pleasure flights around Manly and we went up there and that
JM: Sparked your interest.
LP: Sparked my interest.
JM: So that would have been what, do you remember how old you were when that was? Fifteen or so? Maybe earlier?
LP: It would have been earlier than that.
JM: Earlier than that?
LP: It would be about ten, I would say.
JM: Oh my goodness! So that didn’t prompt you to join the Air League at all?
LP: No, because I was still in Shore, at the Shore Grammar School and in the cadets, the cadets were mainly interested in the uniforms and these rifles, they would take their rifles home and all that sort of thing.
JM: And did you do any sort of like officer training in the cadets or?
LP: Yes, but I didn’t advance [unclear], no.
JM: You didn’t advance. Ok. And so, you had, so when came time to join up, then obviously Air Force was going to be the one that you were going to.
LP: Yes, I was going, definitely wanted to join the Air Force.
JM: Right, ok. And so, off to Bradfield Park and then off to
LP: Narromine.
JM: Narromine for your Elementary Flying Training.
LP: That’s right. Went solo there.
JM: Yes.
LP: Twenty courses and there were fifty of us on twenty course and there was only two of us left.
JM: My goodness me, yes.
LP: And this, do you know Tony Vine at all?
JM: No, I don’t know Tony.
LP: Anyhow, he is an ex naval submarine commander actually and he does a lot of commentating on Anzac Day for the ABC over the year and he took an interest in me and he rounded up and got all the stories of the whole twenty, I will show you the book afterwards that he’s written, released that only a couple of months ago.
JM: Right, right.
LP: Down in Canberra.
JM: Right, very interesting, I’ll have a look at it afterwards, yeah. So, Narromine, then back to Bradfield Park for
LP: The Japanese just came in then.
JM: Ah, about 40, yes
LP: We were all ready to hop on the ship and go to San Francisco, the war came in, they didn’t know what to do with us at the time so we went back to Narromine.
JM: Narromine.
LP: Where we refreshed the course. Things got straight and out what was going to happen and we went back and joined the ship and went to San Francisco, as First Class passengers, wonderful [laughs].
JM: Yes. And you were actually in Sydney then when the Japanese came into the harbour?
LP: I think I was still in Narromine.
JM: Still in Narromine, right, ok.
LP: Yes, still in Narromine waiting the war, so.
JM: Right.
LP: With the Japanese.
JM: But when the submarines came into the harbour at [unclear], you weren’t in Sydney.
LP: I wasn’t here, still in Narromine, pretty sure, yes.
JM: Ok, so off you went to, uhm, to San Francisco and.
LP: Yes, and we went by train up to Vancouver, a lovely, quite an eye-opener how lovely it was that trip and then from Vancouver to Edmonton.
JM: Yes.
LP: And we were held there for oh, four to five weeks I think in Edmonton, Canada.
JM: Ah yes, about four weeks looking at the dates here in your logbook, here at the record of service, yes, it was 9th of May until the 6th of June.
LP: That’ll be right, yes, that’ll be right.
JM: So, so what were you doing, any training there in?
LP: No, no, we were just being held there to. We had the medical, the Canadians were very keen to get the medical condition of whatever arriving there so we had dental and all sort of things, x-rays and things like that. Sports.
JM: Yes, a bit of sports to keep you active, I suppose.
LP: Keep us fit, yes. Waiting on a posting to a service training school.
JM: Right.
LP: Which was Dauphin, Manitoba.
JM: Whereabouts?
LP: Dauphin was just north, northwest of Winnipeg.
JM: Right. And how, was that another train trip?
LP: Yes, it was. Over the Rockies and a wonderful trip.
JM: And that would have been quite an experience then to see some of that scenery.
LP: Oh, it was. It was then.
JM: Yeah.
LP: Jasper and up very, many thousand of feet we had to go through the Rockies to and then down on the plains, from then on east of there of course it was flatter than a pancake until you got to the East Coast of Canada pretty well.
JM: Yes, yes, and what training did you do at Dauphin?
LP: At Dauphin? That was a service training school, and that’s where I got my wings, we had to, we were there for [unclear] several months and it was quite hot in Canada in summer.
JM: Yes, that’s right, June through to almost the end of September, so, you’ve got peak summer conditions, so, I guess therefore it was not dissimilar to Australia in that regard.
LP: Yes, in that regard it was.
JM: And how, how did the training go over there, was there?
LP: Oh yes, It went very well,
JM: And there were Canadian instructors presumably [unclear]
LP: Yes, I had Canadian instructors, we were training on the [unclear] aircraft, twin-engine aircraft and very nice aircraft.
JM: Right, and so, you did, you were flying with the instructor and then finally I presume you did your solo flight to get your wings?
LP: Yes. That’s right.
JM: Yeah. And how was that experience? What was your?
LP: Ah, it was wonderful, it went very well, went very well.
JM: Good. And that completely confirmed for you then that you were doing what you wanted to do.
LP: Oh, just, they wanted to because I topped the flying amongst our group. Then they wanted to send me to Prince Edward Island to go onto Sunderland flying boats and I, cause I wanted to get onto Spitfires and I went and saw the CO and set my foot and he more or less agreed that, alright, we’ll take away the Prince Edward Island job and commission went with that too but when I went to the other, when I went to the other service training school, the commission didn’t go with that posting [unclear] but we were posted to the Saint John, to a near field, Pennfield Ridge it was called and that was near Saint John, near the East Coast of Canada onto Venturas.
JM: Right.
LP: Now, these Venturas were twin-engine, like a big Hudson aircraft.
JM: Right.
LP: And, they were a bit heavy handed [laughs], heavy to handle but did alright but in the meantime they were, can I go on to what happened to Venturas?
JM: Yes, you can.
LP: Because they started off on, in England they were sent across, on operations and the first sortie over the English Channel into France that was then [unclear] two boxes of six and one Ventura came back out of the tour. Now, what really happened was normally was daylight bombing and normally bombing between ten and fifteen thousand feet because we were after the V1 sites mainly then [unclear] hours but normally we had a fighter escort Spitfires and Hurricanes which would be up about twenty thousand, twenty five thousand feet looking after us but they, the escort didn’t turn up, so the German fighters had a pretty good
JM: Picnic.
LP: Pretty good go at the Venturas.
JM: Venturas
LP: And that’s why after we got to England we did a conversion onto Mitchells, B-25s,
JM: Right. Ok, so.
LP: We’re getting ahead of.
JM: We just try, I find it easier if we can sort of keep it in sequence in that way, bearing in mind sort of when other people are listening, you know, at other times, it makes it a little bit simpler for them. But that’s not say that if you suddenly think of something we can’t accommodate that because it’s better to get it all. But, so, the Venturas, so you were training on these Venturas and at Pennfield Ridge, and then, as well as that, you followed that on with some about a month and a bit at Yarmouth.
LP: That’s right, at Yarmouth, in, we had to cross the Bay of Fundy to go down to, Yarmouth was still in Canada. There is a Yarmouth in England too.
JM: Yes, that’s why
LP: That’s why my parents thought that’s we’re gone to.
JM: Yes, that’s why a bit, wanting to just clarify what that, yeah, so, there’s Yarmouth in Canada and so, what did you do down in Yarmouth, more Ventura training or?
LP: Yes, more Ventura training.
JM: Ventura training. So, did you actually crew up at this point?
LP: Yes, when we got to Pennfield Ridge we crewed up.
JM: You crewed up there. So, how many because I’m totally unfamiliar with the Ventura, how many were on your crew on a Ventura?
LP: I had to choose a pilot and an observer who was not a pilot, a navigator and bomb aimer. And wireless air gunner and straight gunner.
JM: So, in terms of a Ventura, is it like, did they have, was it like a mid-upper gunner or rear gunner or?
LP: Mid-upper gunner.
JM: A mid-upper gunner. Right, ok. And
LP: Oh, sorry, it was only the straight air gunner was on the Mitchell and he was on one of those gun positions [unclear] down below
JM: Oh, like, down below
LP: Down below and underneath
JM: A lower, right
LP: The Ventura didn’t, it only had the top turret.
JM: Top turret, right. So what did wireless operator run that as well as the radio?
LP: As a gunner
JM: As a gunner
LP: As a gunner, and
JM: Wireless
LP: Wireless man, too.
JM: Wireless, right, ok. So, you had one, two, three, four, five crew on your Ventura.
LP: Ehm, one, two, three, four, actually, three, four because we didn’t have the straight air gunner.
JM: So you had a pilot, observer, navigator
LP: Who was all, observer, navigator was all, all one
JM: All the one, ok. So, pilot, navigator, observer, bomb aimer and wireless air gunner.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes. Ok. And so, how did you go about your selection of your crew? Did
LP: They were all brought into the hall and we’d just say, would you like to come with me and you’d pick somebody if they were agreeable and that was it.
JM: And were they all, what nationalities were they?
LP: My observer, who was also the
JM: Navigator
LP: Navigator, was a New Zealander.
JM: Right.
LP: There’s with him and the straight air gunner, no, not the straight air gunner, the wireless air gunner
JM: Wireless.
LP: Was a Canadian
JM: Right. And bomb aimer?
LP: That was the observer’s job also. The observer was a navigator and bomb aimer.
JM: And what was he? Ah, he was New Zealander.
LP: He was a New Zealander and the wireless air gunner was a Canadian.
JM: And, so, that was your crew, you went then as a crew to Yarmouth.
LP: To Yarmouth.
JM: And did your additional training
LP: Yes.
JM: In Yarmouth.
LP: Yes.
JM: So then you got after that, any particular memories that, any particular experiences any of these training flights that stand out, any near misses or any interesting visit, interesting side trips as a result of [laughs]?
LP: Not really. I was lucky, the Venturas had the most powerful engine going at the time in the Air Force at two thousand horse power, a radial engine, and had a habit of catching on fire. Luckily I didn’t have that experience myself but we did a lot of formation flying at Yarmouth too, and we’d go out, ehm, select one doing the [unclear] for about half an hour and then change over so. The [unclear] Grant-Suttie was the captain of the leading aircraft I was formating on him and he had an engine failure and we were on a steep turn at the time and I, because he reduced speed because of the engine failure, I pulled off, I suppose I could so but our, my left wingtip hit his tail plane and my left wingtip came up like that, bent right up
JM: Bent right up
LP: Bent right up and of course when I landed and they asked about the other aircraft, the other aircraft, alright, I said, as far as I know, yes, Captain, I’m [unclear], he’s still ok, and I saw him land then and never got into any trouble, I don’t know whether he got into any trouble enough but
JM: But still the engine failed, I mean.
LP: The engine failed and it was down that they weren’t very good engines.
JM: Gosh, well that was an experience to
LP: Yeah, that was an experience.
JM: And again sort of required your resources to manage your way out of it, so.
LP: When you’re in a [unclear] like that and he wants to bank further because the engine fails
JM: So, probably more than forty-five degrees you’re talking about, judging by the position of your hands there, yes.
LP: Is very, I couldn’t do anything except try and sort of get my speed behind his, and we were very lucky that all this more or less still kept together and my wingtip hit his tail plane and, well, it squeezed up against, you say, because there wasn’t any big collision, we were so close anyhow.
JM: Close anyhow.
LP: So.
JM: Gosh! So, that was that experience and that was probably about the only one that you had.
LP: That’s the only one I had.
JP: Bird strike. The bird strike.
LP: Oh no. That’s way.
JM: That’s further down the track, is it? Ok.
LP: Way down the track. This is in the Air Force, I’m still training in the Air Force [laughs]
JM: We’re still, we’re back in Canada here. But whereabouts to sort of go to Halifax and uhm, I presume that’s probably but some of your experiences that’s at Yarmouth and then. So you moved both to Halifax and [unclear] and that was
LP: That was like a holding.
JM: Holding.
LP: Holding spot there and then we actually went by train down to New York
JM: Yes.
LP: To get on board the Queen Elizabeth. Right next door was the French one that was caught on fire.
JM: Fire.
LP: What was the name?
JP: Oh, that French ship. Yes, I remember that.
LP: About the same size as the Queen Elizabeth. Huge French.
JP: It wasn’t the Normandy?
LP: Normandy. That’s it! Good one! Is the Normandy, yes.
JM: Yes.
LP: It spend quite a long time in the New York wharf area.
JM: But when you went down to New York is when you had a week’s leave and when you.
LP: We had the weeks’ leave from Dauphin. That was where I did the [unclear]
JM: Oh, from Dauphin, ok, so whilst you were in Dauphin that had you the week’s leave, right.
LP: That’s right, isn’t it?
JP: Yes.
LP: From Dauphin.
JM: Dauphin, so
LP: [unclear] I got my wings, it wasn’t [unclear], no, because we didn’t have leave and we came before we went on board the Queen Elisabeth. Some memory?
JP: I can’t remember.
LP: You can’t remember, I can’t remember.
JM: No, that’s alright, well that’s
LP: Got in touch with you when I went to New York. No.
JM: No, so was probably around August or something that you had your leave in ’42, went down from Dauphin down to New York so
LP: I don’t think we were allowed so when we were embarking or anything like that.
JM: Right, ok, so that and how did you find your week in New York?
LP: Well, initially.
JM: Yes, that initial.
LP: With June.
JM: Yes, with June.
LP: Oh, we had a lovely time. We saw
JM: So, you met June at the beginning of the leave as opposed to
LP: Yes
JM: So, you had the whole week together basically
JP: I was just having lunch and he was the guest of management and I was guest of management.
JM: Guest of management, yes, no, but it was basically towards the, more as at the start of his leave so you then had a week, more or less a week together. Oh, that was wonderful.
LP: No, not all the time. But I went down to this hotel called [unclear] and the other one, he got his wings too, and we both went to this hotel Edison in New York because we could have two meals for the price of one [laughs]. And, oh, we were looking forward to it, we weren’t flush then.
JM: Oh, that’s right. Exactly, you were payed.
LP: And that’s when June sorted a group of airmen and said, oh, I’ll pick him.
JP: Pick him [laughs].
LP: So it’s all her fault.
JM: It’s all her fault, that’s right. And so, I guess, how long had you been in New York at that stage? June, you had some idea?
JP: Oh, I’d only been in New York probably about a year.
JM: A Year. But still at least you had some knowledge, say you were able to take
LP: You were fifteen, didn’t you?
JP: Fifteen, going, closer to sixteen.
LP: Ah, were you?
JP: Much closer to sixteen. Yes.
LP: June was about the, she was more of us in charge of the other girls going over
JP: That’s right.
LP: And she did three years, they been and she’s been living in New York about a year.
JM: A levels, you did your A levels.
JP: I did the leaving that took everybody four years, I did it in fifteen months.
JM: My Goodness me!
JP: And how I did it was that, where I was as a like a primary school but we had, the older ones, we had a separate cottage and this cottage, these lovely ladies would come and
LP: The Gool [?] Foundation
JP: The Gool [?] Foundation and they’d come and you know they talked me up when I wanted to do my homework for night now where was I? Uhm, what was I about to tell you?
JM: Well, we were just saying that you had, you’d been there about twelve months so that you had some idea about, you know, where to take Lorrie and
JP: Where to take Lorrie and everything and they just sort of got somehow round that we got in touch with each other
LP: When? After.
JP: I don’t know how we did it, whether it’s through my mother.
LP: No, no, no, I happened to be, this is after a two year period after I got to England.
JM: England.
LP: When we first left each other, I think I wrote one letter saying how lovely
JM: [unclear]
LP: I got one letter back, nothing for two years, I happened to be on leave in London and [unclear] officer by then and reading the paper and there was a little part in the paper that said, a lot of these girls were returning as they had been evacuated and gave the address of the headquarters there and I thought, oh, I might go, see if June [unclear] maybe and maybe I might pop in and see and she happened to be there at the headquarters when I popped in.
JM: At that particular time that you went and visited. How a coincidence.
JP: I was getting my papers to get on entertaining the troops had to join ENSO, which was Entertainments National Service Association.
LP: Join the straight, part of a straight play.
JP: Part of a straight play. And, you know I just had this, getting all this information and when Lorrie walked into the building and here you go.
JM: Well, there you go!
JP: Meant to be.
JM: Meant to be, that’s right. And so you became part of the entertainment, troop entertainment.
JP: Yes, I was always in, so, I went to a theatre school as a child through [unclear] and then we went to New York and then I had a very good, I had the best drama teacher in the world at that time called Frances Robinson-Duff and she gave me a free scholarship to attend her school and from there, well, I went back to England, the best way for me to use what I knew in theatre was to join the Entertainment National Service Association, which was a group that entertained troops in straight plays and things like that all over England and Scotland.
LP: You went up to the Orkneys at that time.
JM: Gosh! Yeah, so you, well.
JP: Unfortunately everybody would have been in the newspaper and I would have been in the [unclear] but Noel Coward who was like in charge of us, he was very conscious of keeping our privacy, he didn’t want that for us so he stopped that otherwise I would have had, you know, newspapers galore on what I was doing. It’s a shame.
LP: If June had stayed on , Noel Coward would have made sure that she had a good part.
JM: Gosh!
JP: No, he was like a father to me. Was fabulous.
JM: Amazing, yeah. Ok, we’ll come back to that because that obviously fits in with the story a bit further down the track, uhm, at the moment we just got you into England [laughs]
LP: Queen Elisabeth [unclear], because no escort at all
JM: You had no escort for [unclear], no.
LP: And one night, the Queen did a very quick, one hundred and eighty, three hundred and sixty degree turn because they knew there was a submarine, they were told there was a submarine after them, so I’m glad they had plenty of speed.
JM: Yes, that’s right. So you just did a massive turn around, you didn’t go by, there was one, I must check that, yes, there was one trip that actually went via Greenland. But because again a submarine concerns so did you either on this, on the Elisabeth did you meet, some of the chaps did watchers, did you do any, bridge watches or?
LP: Not on the Queen Elisabeth. But going from Australia to San Francisco, they loaded up guns and [unclear] as well because the war, looked like the Japanese could have come down from there on our way.
JM: But you didn’t do any bridge watch, some of the chaps did bridge watchers from the bridge. But no, so you just did some gunnery work, gunnery preparations on that over to San Fran, right, ok. So you ended up, from Halifax you ended Myles Standish, Bournemouth.
LP: Myles Standish, wasn’t that?
JM: That’s the departure before you went to
LP: Boston, wasn’t it?
JM: That be Boston, yeah, when you got onto the Elisabeth.
LP: Boston, we were held there for a few days and then went to New York onto the Queen Elisabeth.
JM: Yes, just, and so then into Bournemouth.
LP: Yes, held there for quite a while.
JM: About nearly two months basically in Bournemouth, so what sort of things were you doing in Bournemouth?
LP: Mainly parade and get a sport but we were bombed here.
JM: Really?
LP: We were bombed from the low level Focke Wulf, they got under the radar, they just fly over the water and it was a Sunday. If it hadn’t been a Sunday, half of us wouldn’t have been here because the parade ground was bombed. [unclear] my friend there, he got, [unclear] damaged, one thing or another, quite a few killed, civilians were killed at Bournemouth. Sunday the hotel was bombed, they couldn’t, they didn’t rescue anybody out there for a couple of days or two but they were having a great old time down the cellars [laughs].
JM: Down the cellars, well, at least they were safe, I suppose. And so, did your crew that you had been with, your New Zealander, your Canadian, they were all, they came across with you together on the plane, on the boat to Europe? And you’re at Bournemouth together?
LP: Yes, yes, no, I may have, my memory, I’m not too sure now whether it was just my observer and myself together and the wireless air gunner and the straight air gunner, we might have got together after the conversion onto Mitchells, I can’t quite remember that now.
JM: That’s alright, that’s ok. And.
LP: So, after we went after to Bicester.
JM: Towards had, no had two western first?
LP: Sorry?
JM: Tour western? Two western?
LP: Yeah, that’s right.
JM: Two western?
LP: Close to Bicester.
JM: Yeah well, in your entry you had two western then Bicester.
LP: Conversion onto the Mitchells [unclear].
JM: Mitchells.
LP: Two Western.
JM: And how did you find the difference between the Mitchell and the Ventura?
LP: Ah, beautiful aircraft, compared to the Ventura there’s no, hard to compare, the Mitchell was a beautiful aircraft.
JM: It was.
LP: I got a good one too, no, the aircraft varied but mine
JM: There were still two engine, weren’t they?
LP: Still two engines, yes.
JM: Yes. And what, you say they were beautiful aircraft, in what way?
LP: Well, we did a lot of formation flying again there and they were very responsive, very steady, fully aerobatic, not that we did any aerobatics with a bomber but they were capable of doing it. And Liberator, do you know the Liberator at all?
JM: No, not really, no.
LP: That’s a four engine.
JM: Four engine. Had another American one.
LP: The same that made the Liberator
JM: That made the Liberator
LP: Made the Mitchell
JM: Mitchell.
LP: And they are very similar, very similar. Matter of fact, those that went on to Liberators first went on to Mitchells to get the feel. Must show you, there probably a bit out of order but.
JM: Well how about we come back to that later on.
LP: Yeah, we’ll getting a bit thirsty
JM: Oh, ok, we will have a little bit of a.
LP: I mean, you, you must.
JM: No, no, I’m fine but we will just pause while you. We shall just continue on now with Lorrie has just shown me the book that Tony Vine has written on the history of the group of
LP: Group 20
JM: 20 course at Narromine.
LP: There were 50 of us.
JM: 50, so I’ll come, so I’ve seen the chapter on Lorrie which I will come back to afterwards. So, you were at
LP: [unclear]
JM: At Bournemouth.
LP: Yes.
JM: Sorry, then you went to Two Western and you were onto your Mitchell training here now.
LP: Yes, conversion onto.
JM: Yes, so, do you remember your crew there?
LP: Same.
JM: Same. Did you pick up an extra chap now?
LP: That’s where I think where I got the straight gunner, which was Starkey, he was another Canadian.
JM: Another Canadian.
LP: So I finished up with a New Zealander and two Canadians.
JM: Yeah, right, ok, and so from there, any particular experiences that come to mind when you were doing your conversion to your Mitchells?
LP: No, I think they, just the instructors started climbing up to twenty thousand feet and he wanted to demonstrate without our oxygen masks on and most of the chaps sort of passed out but I was very whizzy but I didn’t actually pass out. But, that’s one of, just off the top of my head, [laughs] not worth mentioning really.
JM: Right. Still showed you what would happen if you
LP: If you didn’t have your oxygen mask.
JM: If you didn’t have your oxygen mask, that’s right. So from there, uhm, off to Fulsome
LP: Swanton Morley?
JM: No, Folsom, briefly to start only three days, so, it was just a transit by the looks of the dates and from there Swanton Morley, so, Swanton Morley was you first posting, that was your when you were posted to 226 Squadron.
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yeah, so this was.
LP: Which is an RAF Squadron.
JM: An RAF Squadron, yes, that’s right. And so from, so you arrived at 226 in August ’43.
LP: That’d be right.
JM: August ’43, August ’43, ok and that’s when you started your operational activities?
LP: Yes, from Swanton Morley.
JM: Yes, ok and so, uhm, so mostly your ops were over Northern France, sort of?
LP: Yes, northern France, Holland and, mainly on the V1 sites, we didn’t know, they didn’t tell us what we were actually bombing, cause a big secret at the time. It just what they called a V1 bombing and nothing else, other things too but because these launching sites were right on the coast, crossing over, the flak was very heavy, just hop in and hop out as quickly as you could, drop your bombs.
JM: And so here you had, how many, need to go back to your, we go to the
LP: Operations?
JM: Operations, here, what sort of missions, ops?
LP: Well, as I was saying, they were mainly V1 we were
JM: V1.
LP: We were doing daylight bombings.
JM: Daylight bombings, yes, good, ok, so, any, how many times, do you have?
LP: Thirty ops was a tour.
JM: A tour, yes, that’s alright.
LP: A tour and at the end of the thirty ops I was asked to, would I do another ten ops, which I volunteered to do.
JM: Yes. So, that’s your assessments there, September, yes, so your first ops, your first ops started on the 19th of September basically by the looks of that and through there, lots of flights in between time affiliation flying and then November you really started doing, you really started into the ops, that’s 20th, 23rd, 25th, 26th, yep, 40th operation cooling [?]. So, what’s, any particular ops stand out in terms of, uhm, where, you know, little bit of flak here, we see in January, cloud over target did not bomb, so, French coast, cloud, what sort of, what sort of memories do you have of those ops there?
LP: There, only the amount of flak that was put up to just like the black cloud [unclear]
JM: Black cloud.
LP: And I got hit quite, my observer got shrapnel in his knee from the flak and my straight air gunner, he was up in the top turret and he, quite a big thing hit him behind but luckily it was the flat end that hit him, if it would have been the sharp end the side of, he probably would have been
JM: He probably would have been into trouble.
LP: Yes. Luckily the captain’s seat had armoured plating about that thick [unclear] at the back
JM: Right, so you were reasonably protected from.
LP: Yes, and we always wore a normal helmet, not helmet, see, metal hat, you know, we called it, we didn’t wear a cap so
JM: No, no.
LP: But, the ordinary ground soldiers a metal thing because of the flak, it might help us if a bit of metal came in.
JM: That’s right, and the injuries of those two chaps sustained, were they?
LP: They were in hospital
JM: They were in hospital, I say, it didn’t cause them to miss any ops or one or two ops that you had a substitute crew for or?
LP: No. [unclear]
JM: No, they didn’t miss
LP: We kept the same crew all the way through.
JM: All the way through, right, ok. And, did you have escorts? You said there was lots of flak, so did you still have escorts to provide you a bit of protection or?
LP: Well, as I said, the escorts were [unclear] fighters up to twenty thousand feet, we were bombing between ten thousand and fifteen thousand feet. Daylight bombing and so the escorts could see us from, but that be about ten or fifteen thousand feet
JM: Between you
LP: Between us and if any German fighters showed up they, with the height advantage,
JM: They would be able to come in down over the top of them and try to pick them off
LP: Yes. Keep them. They were herding us along quite nicely. But unlucky with that first Venturas when they didn’t show up and they eleven out of twelve were shot down.
JM: That’s right. So, how bigger Squadron was 226?
LP: It was quite a big squadron and there were about three or four at different stations, airfields, and for instance this called Halliday, was when I met June at the hotel, he was at another airfield, I can’t remember the name of it now, about three or four, there was even a Polish squadron, they made part of our wing, what they called our wing, and they were dreadful in that, they didn’t believe in, they flew straight in and low [laughs] all the time, because, you know, we were told, and it’s pretty true, that if you kept on a straight level flight for ten seconds or a little bit more than ten seconds, without changing your course or your height, you‘re bound to be knocked down. So we did a lot of course changing and height changing.
JM: That’s right. And whilst you were at the base there, uhm, what, at Swanton Morley, you would have some leave, what sort of things did you do whilst you were on leave at Swanton Morley?
LP: We were lucky that there was an organisation that, I’m trying to think of the organisation there that offered to take you into different homes in different parts of England and myself and a good friend of mine, Jack Barrel [?], who is another pilot, we both decided on going up to the Lake District and we loved it, we met a magnificent family up there, he was a soldier from World War I and he at the Battle of the Somme he had a leg shot off and his wife was a lovely Hewardson missy, Hewardson.
JP: They were lovely people.
LP: And that’s where we went up for our honeymoon, up to Kendal, Lake District, and we went and visited them, we just stayed at that hotel at Kendal in Lake District.
JM: Right. Gosh! And did you get back to them a couple of times?
LP: Yes, yes.
JM: So whilst you were at Swanton Morley, so having made the contact with this family, the Hewardsons, did you say it was?
LP: Hewardsons.
JM: Hewardsons, yes. And they, so you then went back.
LP: Very much [unclear] like part of the family up there. Made us very welcome, looked after us magnificently.
JM: Yes, yes, it’s interesting how these bonds did form and how much someone else has commented to me that you know how what an unknown contribution those families really made because of the support and the care that they gave, the service chaps was.
JP: It was amazing.
LP: Of course, something like Miss Macdonald and something about [unclear] and somewhere on the [unclear], was quite nice people, didn’t know them at all but that’s what the organisation was called.
JM: Right, so then you continued to
LP: We left Swanton Morley and went down to Camberley in tents. We were just about to go, D-Day was just about to come up.
JM: Yes, that’s what I’m going to say. What about D-Day, yes?
LP: Well, actually I just finished my tour, they called it, there’s a tour and a half but they called two tours tour because it went on to the extra ten ones, so I was on leave on D-Day.
JM: Right.
LP: In London I think.
JM: Right.
LP: But I then went on to the second [unclear] communication Squadron from there.
JM: Right. Right. So, so you finished your tour at, in beginning of June, before June basically, wasn’t it? It’s the tour the eleventh, that’s May 23, was basically the last op you did there? That when you and then you had your, you’ve been given your assessment on the 11th of June, which of course is after D-Day, so that’s why you were on leave for, well, on D-Day, so, yeah. So, you went, where did you have your leave? Were you down in London or were you up, up north?
LP: London, London on D-Day.
JM: Right, right. And were you in London at that point, June, or?
JP: I think so.
LP: Must have been.
JP: I must have been, yeah. Yes, I must have been, yes. We must have been together.
LP: I don’t know whether you had come back from America at that stage, do you remember what month it was that you came back? It wasn’t, I think it was after June that we met up again.
JP: We had a patch of two years so we didn’t see each other.
LP: Yes.
JM: Right, right, ok. So, could have been as part of that time there. Yes.
LP: Because I know what I mean, we got married on January the 4th, I remember that.
JP: 1945.
JM: Right.
LP: 1945.
JM: January 4th 1945 we were married.
LP: And we weren’t, it took a while before I [unclear] enough courage to ask her to marry me [laughs].
JP: Yes. And we were [unclear] together like three months before that. And before that I was in, I must have been in America.
JM: Yes, yes, yes.
LP: And I was at, based at Northolt.
JM: Yes. Because you, in June you switched to Ansons so did you do a conversion course to the Ansons or was it similar to, from the?
LP: No, hardly necessary. Just another [unclear], the two on the Ansons, the Anson was twin engine, but is only used as a communication aircraft really.
JM: Right, ok, so this was the start of your other Squadron posting, was it?
LP: Yes.
JM: And what was that Squadron called?
LP: 2nd TAF communications squadron.
JM: Right, and so that was Northolt.
LP: They had [unclear]
JM: Yeah, ok. So, that was. So actually you were at 226 moved to Hartford Bridge from Swanton Morley.
LP: Yes, that’s right, yes, that’s right.
JM: So, you’re still flying there, you’re still flying ops at that stage.
LP: Yeah.
JM: It’s just that you change bases there.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yeah, ok. So, with the TAF on communication, what was that involving?
LP: Mainly, flying quite higher people from on aerodrome to the other. Ten days after D-Day I was flying across the Channel with generals and
JM: You were attached to Montgomery’s headquarters.
LP: Yeah, but [unclear] you’re getting too far ahead, June.
JP: Am I? Ah, but that’s what you were doing.
LP: But we were doing a lot of work based in Northolt, flying to different airfields in England, mainly carrying VIPs from one place to the other, carrying some mail from one place to the other, but I think I ran about the tenth, ten days after D-Day which would be, what, 16th? I was flying across the Channel with VIPs.
JM: Right.
LP: And then shortly after the whole communication squadron went across [unclear] and we were based in the beachhead, close to the beachhead, beachhead.
JM: Right. So, that was, yeah, so you were in France and then Belgium. So, from, in August, you had one month in France.
LP: Yeah.
JM: And then three months in Belgium.
LP: That’s right. Yeah. And during that three months, a part of, got three or four weeks, myself and two other pilots were attached to Montgomery’s headquarters and do take his majors up to frontline and get information back and bring that back too.
JM: Right, so. That, August, yes, so, looking at your logbook again, yes it doesn’t quite give us the details it, just tells that you went like in August you went to a whole pile of interesting, Elson [?], Chartres and in another flight you had Reims, Saint Mo [?] and return, so you were obviously visiting forward posts in there to pick up information and then drop staff and that sort of thing there, so, yes, how was that as an experience compared to your fighting operation shall we call?
LP: It is virtually called a rest period, rest period really but we were open to enemy attack at any time.
JM: Did you have any escorts at that time? How many of you were, you just a single plane?
LP: A single plane.
JM: A single plane, so didn’t have any escort or anything like that. You and your rescue were on your own resources in terms of keeping watch for anything.
LP: Yes, well, I didn’t have a crew then.
JM: Oh, ok, you were only.
LP: When I left the squadron, finished the operations, that was the end of the crew.
JM: Right, ok.
LP: So, it was just you.
LP: And other pilots, they were all.
JM: Just a mix of second pilots, just like a two, two men crew running.
LP: Well, wasn’t even a two men crew. We were flying lighter aircraft and it was the one crew flying the passengers virtually.
JM: Oh, ok, so you didn’t actually even have like a second pilot or anything, was just you as the pilot and the passengers that you were ferrying.
LP: Even the Anson which was twin engine thing, you just flew that by yourself. I even accepted that the time I had Prince Bernard [?] in Canada he, we were in Brussels at the time, and he wanted to go to Eindhoven and I was chosen to fly him there in the Anson and he and his couple of aids there and general, a couple of generals there and they sat down in the back and he wanted to sit up alongside of me and Prince Bernard [?] and took off and the old Anson in those days, you had to wind the undercarriage up and it took off and he said, oh, I’ll do that and he wound the undercarriage up for me [laughs]. Very nice chap.
JM: And did you ever meet Montgomery?
LP: I can’t say that I actually met him. No, it’s a wonder I didn’t because as I say there were three of us with these light aircraft attached to his headquarters and one Sunday morning, it must have been a Sunday morning and the English Townsend, Johnny Townsend, were having a bit of a rivalry amongst us and we went up, and we had a bit of a dogfight, you know, [unclear] treetop level and we were doing [unclear] and having a real good older, I won by the way because I and he admitted that I was coming inside him on the turns [unclear], we landed and very shortly after there was a VIP attached to Montgomery that came up and said: ‘What have [unclear] I had a lot of trouble, you’re in a lot of trouble because there was, Montgomery was very religious type of chap and he was carrying out the church parade and of course we were flying [laughs].
JM: The church creating a racket.
LP: And disturbed his church service and we weren’t very popular then [laughs].
JM: Oh dear, oh dear.
LP: So, that’s one incident that happened.
JM: And so, it was quite a different experience than for you to be doing.
LP: We [unclear] as a rest period, weren’t nearly in so much danger really, except we often had to keep our eyes open all the time because we were as far as the aircraft went, we were very much on top of the Germans, from D-Day on the German Air Force didn’t trouble us very much.
JM: So, what, you had quite a number of flights in that capacity. So you went through until December ’44 was the end of Belgium and then from there you were down to Brighton and obviously you had some leave at that point because if you then went and got married in January, beginning of January ’45, your time in Brighton was December ’44 to February ’45 so you had some leave and you got married. Where were you married, in London?
LP: Yes. West Hampstead, wasn’t it?
JP: West Hampstead.
JM: Right. Right. Very good.
LP: And then we had the honeymoon up in Kendal, in the Lake District [laughs].
JM: Back with the Hewardsons again.
JP: Yes.
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yes, so that [unclear] marvellous and so, then you came back on the Rangitiki.
LP: Rangitiki, New Zealand ship.
JM: And did you come, you wouldn’t have come as well?
JP: [unclear] travelled.
JM: Travelled together.
JP: It was terrible because English [unclear] was good. But not the Australians. It was terrible.
JM: No.
LP; A well, I can tell you something about that. The Australians they couldn’t take their wireless back with them, but the New Zealanders did and when we got on board, and the New Zealanders were there [unclear] I was very hurt about that. Yes, would have made a big difference.
JP: [unclear] went first, it was several months before I was pregnant which he didn’t know about.
LP: I didn’t know about [unclear].
JP: Until I saw him again and it was terrible for me cause I had to wait in England for months.
LP: And June was very lucky to be allowed to travel being pregnant.
JM: Yes, well, there was a cut-off time before they.
JP: I got
LP: June had the influence of her grandfather.
JP: My grandfather he was head of the [unclear] shipping company.
JM: Oh, ok.
JP: And only through him did a get a birth I mean cause they’d never allow somebody expecting a baby on the ship anyway during the war.
JP: There were a couple of others that I know of that came through as pregnant, when they were pregnant but yes.
LP: But June was, Richard was born in October.
JP: Several months when I came.
LP: By the time we landed in Sydney, you were what? Seven months pregnant?
JP: Yes, seven months pregnant.
JM: Yes, seven months. And so then you were finally discharged, so you came through on the Rangitiki and then you were discharged
LP: October.
JM: October ’45. Yes. Just saying a bit of note here that is going to sort of jump out of sequence here which but when you were in 226, so you finished up in June, June ’44 we said, wasn’t it? That was your last op, yes, that was last op ’44, so were you, which plane were you on one plane only when you were in 226 or did you fly two or three different planes?
LP: No, only Mitchells, I only flew the Mitchells there and I had my own aircraft.
JM: You had your own aircraft, yes. No, it’s just that I noticed when I was looking up 226 to try and find out a little bit about 226 because I’d never come across 226 previously and one of the notes there said that there was a P for Peter, was a distinguished plane in 226 because it was the only Mitchell that completed one hundred ops. And I didn’t know whether you had ever flown on P for Peter or whether you would, if you’d happen to remember any one who might have flown on P for Peter.
LP: I can’t quite remember either. Does it tell you the aircraft?
JM: It probably does if I actually go back and have a look.
LP: When I was on leave towards the end in my tour, while you are on leave somebody else couldn’t fly your aircraft.
JM: Yes.
LP: And somebody did and the undercarriage didn’t come down when it went in to land, so he landed without a nose wheel, because Mitchells had nose wheels, he did a, he got his crew to go down the back and he finished his landing alone and he kept the nose off the ground all the time, got the ground crew to come out to pull the nose wheel struck down and they did but they didn’t [unclear] and when they were towing it away it came down
JM: Collapsed.
LP: It crashed. Oh, I was so annoyed. I did get another aircraft, a newer aircraft with newer engines, but it wasn’t nearly as nice to fly as the, H for Harry, I’ll bet you’ll find those.
JM: Well actually no, you, all you got is numbers so, I haven’t got any letters unfortunately.
LP: I’m sure there’s H for Harry anyhow.
JM: H for Harry, was it, there you go, no, there’s no letters, there’s just numbers, so. But anyway that’s alright.
LP: H, I’m sure there’s H, wasn’t Peter.
JM: Wasn’t Peter, right. So, back in, you were discharged as we said in December.
LP: October.
JM: October ’45, sorry, and because you arrived, which is a long time after you arrived back, cause you arrived back in March ’45 so.
LP: Yes, we refreshed the course [unclear]
JM: Oh, did you?
LP: Yes, on Oxford and then we went down to East Sale to do a pre endorsement on Beauforts.
JM: Right, because I suppose at that stage they were concerned about, you might have been going off to Asia, were you? For
JP: Yes.
LP: Yes, but before that I was going to go from the Beauforts on to Mosquitos at Williamtown.
JM: Right.
LP: And then the war ended.
JM: Ended.
LP: I wanted to get on to Mosquitos to [laughs]
JP: Yes. That was his love.
JM: Right.
LP: Yes, well I, yes, initially it was Spitfires but at the end, towards the end Mosquitos were lovely aircraft.
JM: Right, right. So did you actually fly?
LP: Mosquitos?
JM: No.
LP: I didn’t even get the posting to Williamtown.
JM: No, no.
LP: East Sale, you know where East Sale is?
JM: Yes, down Victoria.
LP: Victoria. That’s where the beau fighters were.
JM: Beau fighters were.
LP: No, not beau fighters, Beauforts, Beauforts.
JM: Beauforts, Beauforts. Right.
LP: And I did finish the course there and as I say the war ended then. [phone ringing] Thanks June.
JM: So, yes, so, well, that’s interesting that you had all that extra training [unclear]
LP: Excuse me, I gotta, he’s gonna call me back.
JM: Go back, so, then having done all these extra bits of training it never came to anything as such and the war ended so you were finally discharged in October ’45.
LP: Yes.
JM: And by which time June had arrived I assume, yes, yes.
LP: Yes, produced our son.
JM: Yes, your son.
JP: I had him at October 9th 1945.
JM: Right, right, so that was just before you were discharged, ok, uhm, and you were in Sydney here at that point.
JP: Yes.
LP: No, no, you were up at Burrell.
JP: Up at Burrell? Oh, sorry, I, when you said Sydney I meant Australia. Yes, I was up at Burrell.
LP: No, my parents were retired in a place up at Burrell, near [unclear], Gloucester Way.
JM: Ok, right, so there.
JP: So basically I was when I had the baby.
JM: Right, right, ok, so, that would have been a bit of a shock to the system and the whole country town there.
LP: It was, no telephone,
JP: I got on the phone and said to people in England and New York, I said, well look I’m up here, there’s no phone, no electricity, no toilet inside [unclear] [laughs].
JM: Dunny is down the back.
LP: Was a bit of a shock.
JP: [unclear]
LP: But I had told her what to expect.
JP: Oh yes, I wasn’t, you know, [unclear], I did it with fun.
JM: Yes, yes.
LP: Was lovely, June settled in there beautifully.
JP: Oh yes, no, they were lovely to me. When I first arrived, of course being a little English girl, I was all white,
JM: White, that’s right.
JP: And just, they went, ah, [laughs], who’s this? Where does she come from? [laughs]
LP: And June could make up beautifully and she looked lovely anyhow but all the local girls [unclear]
JP: Who’s this? [laughs] Where did she come from?
JM: That’s right, yes.
JP: What planet? [laughs]
JM: Yes, exactly. And so, when did you start your chartered business? You showed
LP: The air taxi.
JM: Air taxi out of Bankstown.
LP: Yes.
JM: Was that the first thing you did after the war?
LP: The first job that I went into, organized setting up the air taxi. I met a chap, a country chap that he and his wife looking for something of interest, they were pretty well off and we got on very well together and we went down to Canberra and saw Dragford [?], who is a politician and he managed to get two light aircraft from the RAAF at Richmond. So we got hold of [unclear], picked one up, all [unclear] up nicely and start to operate from then.
JM: So did you, whereabouts in Sydney were you living at this point? Were you out near Bankstown or were you travelling out there?
LP: Yes, yes, there was another airport chap that I got to know, at Dauphin quite well, and his parents were living at Bankstown at the time
JM: Right.
LP: And they put us up there until their daughter was born and then
JM: Yeah, right.
JP: [unclear] was born.
JM: Right, right.
LP: Yes, very kind of them.
JM: Yes, yes. So, and you, I think you said three or four years did you have your charter business for?
LP: Ah, about a year and a half.
JM: Year and a half was it? Right.
LP: It was all, because before we went broke.
JM: Right.
JP: Did the guard man threaten to put out some cost, which would put us out of business?
LP: Yes, I said we’re gonna charge [unclear] in air mile
JP: And then they were gonna put it up. And that would have put us out of business. So we had to give it away.
LP: I interviewed [unclear] and Mr Butler, whose Butler Airlines at that stage, he thought we could combine quite well but as [unclear] couldn’t carry on. I even took a couple just to keep this going in, even took a couple of jobs with [unclear] I think it was and the other place, in George Street down the hill.
JM: Down the hill?
LP: Down the hill from George Street near central.
JM: Oh, Mark Foyes?
LP: No, in George Street.
JM: Oh, George Street.
LP: George Street, was a well known
JM: Hordens?
JP: Hordens? Anthony Hordens?
JM: Anthony Hordens?
LP: Anthony Hordens? Yes, I was in, I didn’t smoke, so I got a job in the smoking factory.
JM: Oh, in the tobacco section.
LP: Selling cigarettes and so. Because they always had their battered up tins of cigarettes, fifty, used to be the old fifty tins in those days. And any ones that got battered, they virtually sold them and at this stage I was keen to get into Qantas so I used to do, every week go down to the recruitment place in Qantas and with my tins, battered tins of cigarettes and the recruitment officer, he was a smoker and he bought these battered tins from me every week which is quite [unclear]
JM: Had a little bit of a discount.
LP: Yes, a big discount. So, I think that helped me get into Qantas.
JM: Nothing like a little bit of encouragement.
LP: Exactly, exactly.
JM: For favourable, to view your credentials favourably.
LP: Yes.
JM: Well I mean, you did have the right credentials, let’s face it, so, I mean, that, yes.
LP: There were so many ex Air Force men who wanted to get in
JM: Yes, but they had the pick of the whole field, really.
LP: They did, they did.
JM: So, yes, yes. So, you joined up into Qantas in?
LP: Yes, 28th of March I think it was, 1948.
JM: Right, ok. So, then you started, you were doing domestic or international?
LP: No, international. At the same I was applying to TAA at the same time and they both came and said, come and see us. But the idea of just flying up Sydney, Melbourne, Sydney, Melbourne didn’t really appeal to me.
JM: Taxi run.
LP: And Qantas sounded a lot nicer to me. Don’t say good for June I suppose. Because overseas
JM: Because overseas, periods of absence, yes.
LP: We got two, sometimes three up to Japan because the Korean War had started then. And we took on the Skymaster DC4 we used to fly up to there and the troops landed there and their air force up there, [unclear], and you’d be up to three weeks away, probably because you had to wait for [unclear] ex-service people.
JM: Right. And so how long were you with Qantas for?
LP: Thirty years.
JM: Thirty years. Gosh!
LP: Yes. Thirty years with Qantas.
JM: So, you would have seen quite a number of changes in that time. Obviously, with different planes and
LP: Start off on the DC3 and then went on to the Skymaster DC4, the Superconny, Super Constellation, wasn’t very long and then went on to the 707, Boeing 707 and then the last five years I was on the Jumbo 747.
JM: 747, yes. And have you flown on the A380s at all?
LP: Yes. I have, as passenger.
JM: As passenger. Yes, yes, well that would have been a change again. From the 747.
LP: Like going to [unclear] on the [unclear]. Amazing.
JM: That’s right. And so, once you retired from Qantas in ’78, anything, did you do anything in particular after?
LP: Oh yes, I bought a farm. [laughs]
JM: Bought a farm, right.
LP: Yes, that’s why we just sold, that’s why everything in the dining room down there is chock-a-block. My son also owns another property out in the country and he’s had a big shed that with nothing in there and that’s chock-a-block.
JP: That’s chock-a-block. We’ve got stuff out there that [unclear] what we’re gonna do.
LP: And my son also has a place at [unclear] that’s painting off
JP: That’s his [unclear]
JM: Oh, it’s beautiful.
LP: Two people there during the night.
JM: Oh my goodness!
LP: Great grandchildren.
JP: The artist just did that for us.
JM: Lovely!
JP: That’s the back of the house.
LP: We’ve got the others to go down there and paint it.
JM: Paint it, gosh!
LP: Oh, he’s got a beautiful place!
JP: Oh, it’s beautiful.
JM: And whereabouts is your farm?
LP: At Burrell, near [unclear].
JM: Oh, back in, family, back in where your parents were, so, right.
LP: What happened was in about 1977 [unclear], no ’74, was that Dad came, he said, why don’t you buy the land around us, it was off the sale but 160 acers all together and buy that and when we go, it looks like they were going to go fairly soon, we will leave you the little house and leave you, make a nice little property for you when we go. So that’s what we did. I’m just about to buy a lovely home at Lake Macquarie.
JM: Oh, ok.
LP: Wangi Wangi.
JM: Wangi Wangi, yes, yes.
LP: It’s a waterfront [unclear] a little pathway.
JM: Yes, yes.
LP: People like to use the pathway on the other side of this bay and Dad came up with this offer and I can see we could help them at the same time and we changed over.
JM: Lovely. Oh, that’s a beautiful area up there I mean.
LP: It is.
JP: Magnificent.
LP: My mother came from this little township called Burrell, [unclear] Newcastle.
JM: Yes, that’s right. So, you had a very varied and interesting life.
LP: Very much so.
JM: And during, from your wartime experiences would you say there’s any one sequence of events that stays with you perhaps more than others or? One event or?
LP: Can’t say, can’t say. No, can’t say anything. I, we, the CO just before at the end of the tour recommended me for a DFC and then when he left the new CO came in, he called me and he said: ‘Oh, look, here’s this recommendation for a DFC, he said, well, I don’t know anything about you, but can you tell me what you did so we can write up a citation with, I said, I couldn’t think of anything, really [laughs]. And he said: ‘You write what you think might be the best thing in [unclear] the DFC, I said, oh, I thought is not a war to go on yet and I said, just leave it. And he wrote in and I got mentioned a special [unclear] left at then. But an AFC, an Air Force Cross I could have written down something and then because, you know, in formation with head boxers and six, I don’t know if you had, one leading aircraft had one formation on this side and then another one over there and then another one down here with two chaps, you’d have six aircraft all in one box of six, you’d re following me there?
JM: Yes, I am.
LP: And if you went up through cloud then, the idea was everybody to alter course 30 degrees for [unclear] and then climb up through the cloud and break through the clouds up and open it all the aircraft all over the place there and form one again [?]. Well, we had one chap, a fairly high air force official came to our squadron, he said, you know, the fighters, they four made up the fighters coming a lot closer and they form up and they go through the cloud in formation so the CO heard about that and he got a flight Lieutenant and said, give it a try and I’d hear about this and so the next time this went up through the cloud and I stuck in and kept formation all the way up through there and the other chap, that, this flight Lieutenant, he couldn’t do at the end the breakaway so I came up, oh, I was the only one that kept in formation. Well, [unclear] I could have written up something about that, an AFC. That’s the only other experience I can pass on to you.
JM: And what about down the years, did you manage to stay in touch with your New Zealand and Canadian crew chaps or?
LP: Not the Canadians, the, we went to a holiday, a bit of a holiday over in New Zealand and I met up with my observer then. Oh, by the way that business of flying through the clouds, after they found out that it could be done, after that all the operations, that they went up through cloud, we all formed up and went through in formation.
JM: You stayed in formation.
LP: After [unclear]
JM: So you brought about a change of procedure so to speak.
LP: Yes.
JM: And so the chap, Dennis, Dennis
LP: Lez Witham.
JM: Lez Witham.
LP: Lez Witham was my observer.
JM: Right.
LP: He was at Duneaton [?].
JM: And so you managed to keep in contact with him a little bit.
LP: A little bit.
JM: Post war.
LP: He became a, bonds, he was a
JM: Stock broker.
LP: Stock broker, yes, he became a stock broker.
JM: Right. Interesting.
LP: [unclear] when you get old, you can’t remember names [unclear].
JM: We’re talking about so long ago and so many thing have happened in the years [unclear] that’s quite, But the fact is that, you know, those experiences, the nitty gritties of the experiences stay with you and while some of the finer details may not necessarily be there, the whole overall experience is very much still part and parcel of you.
LP: But names of people [unclear] I mean you can’t and June is even worse than I am, terribly [unclear]. I told you about five times I don’t take milk in tea and I like milk in my coffee and but she asks me every time [unclear]
JM: Ah well, she is always planning for a change of taste, that’s what it is. [unclear] And did you keep in touch with any of, like training type people that you were trained with or did you make up, come because of being in Qantas you would have met up with a lot of service personnel, did?
LP: Not Air Force,
JM: Not Air Force.
LP: But of course, except my wireless air gunner, he married and we had a few [unclear] from her and sometime years ago now and she used to correspond a bit [unclear] and as I say, the observer, New Zealand observer we but the straight air gunner, no, he didn’t, didn’t hear anything from him. He was a character, he was only a short stocky Canadian, he was a real toughy [unclear], he was a good air gunner, [unclear] I liked the chap, I liked him.
JM: Well, that’s what you want, you want someone who is good at, everyone had to be good at their own jobs. That was part and parcel of the survival of the crew, I think, wasn’t it?
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes, so, and that you may not necessarily be best of buddies but you were able to work together and have that cohesion that was required to be a good team, to survive.
LP: I never had any trouble with my crew at all so very good, very good.
JM: I know it’s hard work so I do appreciate you were sharing some memory, many memories with me.
LP: It’s hard work trying to remember [unclear] no, I enjoyed it because it brings to day sort of [unclear] quite a few [unclear].
JP: Lovely memories.
LP: I wish I had this Mitchell, we had the whole squadron in front of a Mitchell and where that photo is.
JM: It’s in one of your boxes. You’ll find it one day, it will turn.
LP: Tony Vine has got, he took a lot of photos
JM: Photos
JP: We’ve got a lot of boxes in there.
LP: Yes, but he took a lot of photos to
JM: To put into the book.
LP: Yes, to put into the book.
JM: Well, if nothing else, we might wrap up then if there is anything else, unless there’s anything else that you can think of, that you want to mention.
LP: Can you think of anything else, June?
JP: No, no.
JM: So, we’ll wrap it up as I say and I.
LP: June wants to bring up the bird strike business with the Qantas of course but.
JP: Oh, not really. We’ll leave it.
LP: Ok. You brought it up, you brought it up.
JP: I know, but, definitely yes.
LP: We had a bird strike on a Jumbo Jet taking off from Sydney and it looked like we lost two engines on one side, during take-off. Luckily, number 4 engine came good again, otherwise it looked we were going to ditch in Botany Bay.
JM: Interesting.
LP: We came good [unclear] jettison, we were going to Singapore at the time, with about 300 passengers on board. So, we dumped our fuel and while we were dumping our fuel, of course that takes some time, [unclear] on the ground and engineering and they prepared another aircraft while we were dumping to go on to London eventually and Philip, Prince Philip, he’s been a night.
JM: Have you been sick?
JP: Yes, he’s been in hospital. For two days.
LP: And actually in 1963 we had a basing with Qantas, a four year basing in London to fly from London to New York and in 1963 the Commonwealth Games were on and he opened them, but I flew from London to New York.
JM: Oh good!
LP: And there’s a photograph over there that he gave to me heading up on the flight deck landing into New York.
JM: Into New York, he was like that,
LP: Yes.
JM: Even though he was a naval man. But he, I think he was very interested in
LP: He had a helicopter, so I [unclear] fly a helicopter, I asked him, when I first saw him, was I asked him, how as it like to fly a helicopter, he said it was like rubbing your head in [unclear] or vice versa. He was very down to earth, very down to earth, Prince Philip.
JM: That’s interesting, yeah, so, obviously you landed successfully back in Sydney and by which time the plane, the new, the replacement plane was ready so you just walked off and did you then crew that, fly or did they say that you’d done enough hours, that you had exceeded your hours by the time?
LP: I’d flown him from, you’re right, I’d run out of flight time. Actually we’d flown from London to New York and then [unclear] arrival on the minute and they reported right back to the CO to London, couldn’t imagine, can’t imagine how I came from London to New York and arriving on schedule to the very minute.
JM: A feather in your cap then for managing to do that, yes, that was wonderful.
LP: So there’s one of the things that come to mind.
JM: Mind, yes, so, four years in London would have been an interesting experience, so you
JP: Ah, it was wonderful. It was really possibly one of the best times of our life, with young children [unclear] growing up.
LP: We had a lovely double story home in [unclear] Water,
JP: [unclear] Water.
LP: Near the park.
JP: Pardon?
LP: Near the park.
JP: Yes.
LP: What’s the name? Buckingham, not Buckingham.
JM: St James?
LP: Windsor Park.
JM: Windsor Park. Right.
JP: Near Windsor Park. Ah, it was absolutely beautiful. We had the most wonderful four year posting, and the kids were the right age, weren’t they?
LP: Yes.
JP: Just entering their teens.
LP: And we would take them on holiday, over to, over to Europe.
JM: Over to the continent. And around and they gave you a chance to see your family again, I presume.
JP: Oh yes. No, it was absolutely fantastic. Couldn’t have asked for a better posting than that. No, we loved that.
JM: Would have been a lovely time for four years.
LP: I could have extended that posting for another two years except that our son and daughter, our son was eighteen and our daughter was
JP: Sixteen or something.
LP: Sixteen or seventeen. I thought that if we stayed another two years, they’ve never gone back to Australia.
JP: Back to Australia. You know, they would have got [unclear]
JM: Yes.
LP: So we came back and of course my parents weren’t very well.
JM: Very well by that stage, so [unclear]
JP: We did the right thing because it was for your parents mainly. Yes, no, it was the right thing to do.
LP: Yes, so, all. No, could we offer you a bit of afternoon tea now?
JM: Thank you, we will just wrap up here though, and just formally say once again thank you Lorrie very much and June for your contributions, it’s been so thank you indeed.
LP: It’s lovely talking to somebody that’s interested.
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APennL170622
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Interview with Lawrence Penn
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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eng
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01:48:11 audio recording
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Pending review
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Jean Macartney
Date
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2017-06-22
Description
An account of the resource
Lawrence Penn grew up in Australia and worked as a bank clerk before he volunteered for the Air Force. He flew 40 operations as a pilot with 226 Squadron. After the war he had his own air taxi company and also flew for Qantas.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Canada
Great Britain
United States
England--Norfolk
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
226 Squadron
aircrew
B-25
bombing
crewing up
love and romance
mid-air collision
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
pilot
RAF Hartford Bridge
RAF Swanton Morley
RAF Turweston
rivalry
Second Tactical Air Force
training
V-1
V-weapon
Ventura
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/734/10732/ACattyMA180822.2.mp3
56b4756625ebdbc6366c390a3d646d10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Catty, Martin Arthur
M A Catty
Description
An account of the resource
19 items. An oral history interview with Martin Catty (b. 1923, 1802887, 164193 Royal Air Force), log books, photographs, service documents, maps, and folders containing navigation and Gee charts. He flew operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Martin Catty and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Catty, MA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: Start. Yes.
DE: Start so this is an interview with Martin Catty. My name is Dan Ellin. It’s the 22nd of August 2018 and we are at Riseholme Hall. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. So, Martin would you mind telling me a little bit about your early life and what you did before you joined Bomber Command?
MC: Yes. What I can recollect. I lived in Hendon in London and went to a prep school locally and then afterwards to a prep school in Surrey, at Crowthorne and then on to Highgate School in London where I was until we were evacuated to Westward Ho at the beginning of the war and we took over mostly what United Services College had left at Westward Ho. You know, Stalky and Co and all that. There was the Kingsley Gymnasium and places like that and we took over certain cafes for classrooms and, and so forth. And then after I had taken my O levels we got this visit from the RAF offering us a short course at university to do the Initial Training Wing stuff at, on the short course and study either engineering or other, other more academic subjects I suppose. Anyhow, and therefore that was lasting six months from, from April ‘42 to about September ‘42. I was at Pembroke College, Cambridge for that and then after that course where I apparently did, compared to some of the others quite well which meant that at the end of the war I was invited to go back to Cambridge University although to tell the truth I hadn't got the qualifications to do so. But I was invited back. Anyhow, so then I went to St John’s Wood where we joined the RAF proper. Got kitted out, inoculated and God knows what. Queued for about three hours in the basement of a St John’s Wood block of flats and then got posted to Sywell outside Northampton for grading. Pilot grading, you know. Where I was successful to be graded for pilot training. Then went up to [pause] No. We didn't immediately go up there. They had got all the transport at that time was being used for building up the Second Front. Therefore, we were sent up to Whitley Bay. The RAF Regiment place where they loved to get their hands on aircrew chaps [laughs] We were, I was very fortunate in being with a young Sergeant who really wanted to teach us things rather than take the Mick out of us. So we had a fortnight there and were promised Christmas leave afterwards. It was pretty awful actually because the quarters were bombed out houses, no windows, no hot water and just a blanket. So, it was and we were up in the morning, freezing morning in about December holding rifles, no gloves [laughs] Anyhow, it was. And then we were sent after that, after Christmas to Brighton which was the RAF Discip School where naughty pilots were disciplined and so forth and we spent about a fortnight there I think waiting for transport to turn up. The only, well visible thing I think [pause] I remember being put on jankers for something but I can't remember what it was for [laughs] And we won a drill competition so we were allowed leave to go to London where my parents lived. And then in, we were sent up to Heaton Park in Manchester which was a sort of transit camp on the way to Canada. And from there we went to West Kirby somewhere where we were, no, to Liverpool. We were taken out on a tender to a big ship on the, well a small ship on the horizon but as it got nearer and nearer it turned out to be the QE which of course was never fitted out as a passenger ship. It was fitted out immediately as a troop ship because it had only just been launched before the war. So we went out to Canada on that. About six hundred of us jammed into this little batch of cabins in the middle with about four bunks high. Twenty four to a cabin, I think and the whole ship, rest of the ship was empty except for the officers wives upstairs where I fortunately got as a duty baggage party which meant I went down the hold to get a trunk that some officer’s wife had said she didn't want during the journey and suddenly realised she did [laughs]. So we, well we, it was very easy manhandling because as the ship came down you could take a great big trunk, jam it on the companionway and then you could handle. It had the advantage that at the end of the trip when we landed at New York the rest of the people went straight up to Canada but we were given an extra day in New York to get the luggage and so forth and then taken up to Moncton in New Brunswick in Canada the next day. Or taken up, we were put on board a plane where the Canadian flight lieutenant wanted to impress us how good Canada was and we were treated very well. Then we walked into the camp and I remember being greeted by some corporal, ‘Oh, Catty MA. Martial Arts are you? Oh right.’ [laughs] So all my life I’ve been, wanting to be, I am now Master of Arts anyhow [laughs] but, and then we were posted to Virden in Manitoba. EFTS where we did the, obviously the Elementary Flying Training. We got through that alright. No problems really.
DE: What aircraft were you flying there?
MC: Tiger Moths.
DE: Right.
MC: Yeah. The Tiger Moths at Grading School of course was one without a canopy. Open cockpits. The one in Canada had canopies because of the very low temperatures we flew in even at low heights. I mean it was sometimes minus forty below. Things like that. So anyhow I got through that alright. In fact, I got the Ground School Award which I think stood me in bad stead later on but be that as it may [laughs] and got posted on to SFTS at Brandon which was not far from Virden actually. And then I was within about a month of completing the pilot’s course when I unfortunately was in the flight hangar when somebody arrived from Central Flying School to do, to grade the station and the chap they had selected to go up with him wasn't there so they sent me up with him and he didn't like it. In the end he said my flying was too mechanical. So I ceased flying training as a pilot, went to a manning depot, also in Brandon which was a terrible, well we were in a cattle market with about, God knows how many, four hundred people sleeping in a cattle market with bunks about four high and they’d got nothing to do with us except send us for route marches [laughs]
DE: Not very pleasant then.
MC: No. And of course, because we’d ceased flying training you lost your flying pay so we were on two thirds of the pay we were used to. So you could hardly afford to have a beer let alone anything else. However, that lasted about a month before I eventually got a posting to Winnipeg. Number 5 AOS. Where we flew Ansons which was not the plane I was on at the SFTS. That was a Cessna Crane. And well, I suppose I spent the usual course. When we graduated at the end of it we were not sent home because all the transport again was tied up with Second Front sort of thing and then they sent us, most unusually on leave.
DE: Right.
MC: Went to Niagara, went to New York. I had an uncle who lived in Stamford Connecticut so I went with him but they dressed for dinner so I couldn't stand that [laughs] I don't know why I'm telling you all this.
DE: No. It's interesting. It’s great stuff.
MC: Really? [laughs] And so, eventually we got on the Andes to come back from, I think it was, was it Halifax? I can't remember the port. Whatever. Which was basically an almost flat-bottomed thing designed for going up the Amazon and rolled like mad. Again, because I forgot to say this but when we went on the short course one of the promises was that when you graduated you'd be commissioned so of course we did get commissioned which meant of course we didn't get our uniform. So the people who didn’t get commissioned got flocked around by all the ladies of New York whereas we looked like erks and didn't get any.
DE: Oh dear.
MC: That didn’t matter. Anyhow, we left, I think on the 30th March ’44. The day of the Nuremberg raid because as we were sailing out of the harbour the 9:00 o'clock news came on and it said ninety odd of our aircraft were missing or something and we said, ‘Turn it around.’ [laughs] However, we eventually got back and went to Harrogate to get kitted and get the uniform and so forth. Just arrived in time to be best man at my brother’s wedding. My elder brother who was also in the RAF. I'd only had my uniform for about a week and then got posted to OTU at Chipping Warden. And there as I mentioned to someone else some of the aircraft were pretty ropey. They were Wellingtons. We called them Wimpies.
DE: Yes.
MC: 1Cs and things like that and one of them actually the wing fell off in the air, you know. So it’s, but I don't know, one I’ve accepted these things. And I crewed up, of course at that stage and I crewed up with this Canadian skipper, Flight Lieutenant Ness, Johnny Ness. There’s a photograph of him. I don't remember the actual process of being selected. Who went with whom. I think the skipper probably said, ‘Oh, that chap.’ I don't know but, so after getting crewed up etcetera at OTU, one or two weren’t because the Wimpy would not take seven people of course as crew. I think the gunners joined us later. Went to Con Unit, conversion to four engine aircraft at Stradishall and then on to Lanc Finishing School. LFS at Feltwell. Then got posted to Number 514 Squadron at Waterbeach and that's how I have arrived at Waterbeach.
DE: Right.
MC: And then we, I mean quite frankly at the time I got there which was about October ’44, somewhere like that it was, the chop rate had fallen right down to a very low rate. Something like five percent. Something like that. Whereas it was of course at times very, the chance of finishing a tour of opps was very [pause] but we were. So I’ve got to say it was a fairly easy time we had there. It was 3 Group and 3 Group concentrated on GH bombing. I don't know if you are aware of that. Basically, Gee was navigation which I think relied on ground stations sending out signals which the aircraft reflected and we bombed on GH which was the aircraft transmitting the ground through reflecting. I think I've got that the right way around. I'm not sure. So, in fact, as navigator since we did a lot of daylight raids over the Ruhr I used to release the bombs more than the bomb aimer. I think I did more daylights than night trips. I'm sure I did. The logbook will —
DE: We’ll have a look at your logbook.
MC: But I think I finished my tour in March, something like that and I joined, Waterbeach was also number 33 base which controlled two other stations. Mepal and Witchford I think, and I joined the base test crew which tested all Lancasters coming in to the base whether Waterbeach or going to one of the others as navigator which of course wasn't a very great amount of navigation to do. And that's where I more or less was when as I hear [John Toddy], the chap I flew with on Lancasters who I was very pally with said to me, ‘I volunteered you for ferrying aircraft, Lancs out to the Far East.’ And it was going to be done in three stages. UK to Egypt, Egypt to India and India to Burma or wherever they were going to be used. But in, so having been sent to Morecambe to get kitted out with, I mean, you know, shorts and everything else and having inoculations, Yellow Fever, goodness knows what else they cancelled it because it was obviously getting to the stage, getting near VJ Day and it wasn't needed anymore. But we were, being in [unclear] by that time. We went to Talbenny in Wales first. I think, I can’t remember, again, it was number 1630. Anyhow, whatever unit we were and then that was transferred to Dunkeswell in Devon which was an American base up to that stage. One of the things of course that may be amusing I don't know but we found a whole lot of lovely American leather boots. You know, booties or whatever you want to call them. They were wonderful. And they were all left foot. There wasn’t a right foot amongst them [laughs] which wasn’t very [laughs] Anyhow, that’s just in passing. From there on our crew got selected to take a ground crew from Air Ministry out to the Middle East to train all the various Middle East ground crew stations how to service Lancs. So we took the Lanc out to [Khormarksar]. Whatever. Wherever we landed we’d say goodbye chops see you in a fortnight's time. They did their job teaching the crews and we did well when we went where we liked. More or less. Although it was the time of the troubles. We had to wear sidearms. You know, the Palestine and Israel. Palestine troubles. Went to several stations out there. Shaibah. In fact, I had my birthday at Shaibah if I remember rightly. And well eventually got back obviously at Christmas. And a little tale, I don't suppose it’s really amusing but we, in Cairo a Liberator landed and we knew the crew because they were from Waterbeach. And so we got flown back supernumerary crew to Waterbeach. So we went out to the brewery tap there where we knew the landlord and the skipper produced a bottle of Curacao or something like that and said, ‘Here you are lad. This is for you.’ And the voice from the back, which turned out to be the Customs man said, ‘That doesn't look like fresh fruit either.’ [laughs] Right. So thereafter my skipper got demobbed and I was, well in time I got crewed up or went as navigator with Wing Commander Tubby Baldwin who, we were flying an Anson 19, I think it was, out to Cairo to Misr Airlines. It was fitted out as a passenger aircraft. So we lobbed down in several places on the way obviously. Got to Cairo and ended up, I ended up training as instructing pilots in BABS, Blind Approach Beacon System. The radar system that had just been brought out and I went to Melbourne in Yorkshire and Bramcote in Warwickshire, you know. Obviously, there was a pilot with the pilot training. We were telling them what to do and how to use it and so forth. And that's how I ended my career in the RAF.
DE: Right. So when were you, when were you released? When were you demobbed?
MC: Either September, October. I think it was October ‘46 when I went up to Cambridge because they’d asked me if I’d like to go back.
DE: Right.
MC: And I managed to do it on normal release. I didn't have to take out Class B release did they call it or something where you went for early release. But anyhow I spent three years at Cambridge which I did some studying. But I really wasn't qualified because I hadn't got the maths training. It was really necessary. Particularly at Cambridge for an engineering course because not only did you now have to use a formula. You knew how to, you were taught how to derive the formula. You know, you were never taught really how to use things.
DE: Right.
MC: So, anyhow that was my, the end of my service with the RAF.
DE: So, what did you do after university?
MC: I went as a, to GEC in Birmingham, Witton, Birmingham, on a graduate apprenticeship course and then took jobs in management supervisory sort of rather than using my engineering studies as such where more my training to be able to think things through. And stayed in, if you like in management until we moved around once or twice but I stayed with GEC the rest of my career.
DE: Ok. Wonderful.
MC: I think I held the very rare distinction of turning a Tiger Moth upside down.
DE: Oh, you must tell me about that.
MC: Well, I was out solo. Out solo and I saw this black line on the horizon. I thought that's a bit strange. What's that? And then it got bigger and bigger and I suddenly realised it was a dust storm approaching. Fortunately, I was upwind of the station so I just landed as the storm hit us. The wind was so great that my ground speed landing was something like five knots or ten knots and it was very [pause] and you know you, and you were surrounded so as I turned across wind to go towards the flight hangar, the wind got under the tailplane, lifted the tailplane, got under the wing and the tailplane went over so slowly. I heard the, there was a fuel gauge on the top wing of a Tiger Moth and that went and then the prop broke and there I was upside down. Nothing on the clock. And the ground crew came out and said, ‘Oh, okay. Are you alright?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, I'm glad as you came you didn't release your belt. The last chap who did this fell down and broke his hip.’ [laughs] So, and then I was released out and then the doc came out, the MO. ‘Taxiing accident?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Do you feel alright?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Cheerio.’ By that time the ground crew had gone. There I was in the middle of the ‘drome with my parachute slung over my shoulder walking back all the way to the flight. Fortunately, I was greeted by the flight commander who said. ‘Don't worry Martin. I’ve done it in a prop myself.’ He said, ‘The ground crew should have been on your wing almost as soon as you'd landed. It wasn't your fault.’ So I didn't get any trouble from that.
DE: So, no black mark against you.
MC: No. So I don't think there are any more interesting, well if that's of interest I don't know but be at that as it may.
DE: Is it OK if we just go back through a few things?
MC: Yes. Certainly.
DE: I’ll ask you a few questions.
MC: Yeah.
DE: You know, you said that when, I think you were in Brighton you, you were put on jankers.
MC: Well, I can't remember why I was put on jankers. I think some cheeky remark I made of some sort and some Warrant Officer heard it and it wasn't too bad. It was peeling potatoes and things like that you know but of course the other thing I don't know what the local population said because we were up early and the PE instructor would take us for drill before breakfast and he sang, ‘Come on you wankers.’ [laughs] And the local population [laughs] had to listen to this. However, and then at Brighton we, as I say we managed to be the Flight that did the best drill so we were given a pass to have a forty eight hour pass for the weekend in London. But the actual reason I can’t because we were stationed in the Grand Hotel but we ate in the Metropole Hotel. I can't remember much more about it.
DE: Never mind.
MC: Yeah.
DE: Could you tell me a little bit more about what life was like at Waterbeach?
MC: Yeah. Well, it was very pleasant. The food was good. Mind you I was obviously commissioned so in the officer’s mess and therefore we were just, I would say we had twice as good food as the general population if not more. We were looked after very well from that point of view. You could get in to Cambridge very easily. There was transport in to Cambridge. It was an enjoyable life I’ve got to say. Ok. And at that time the operations were not that scary, you know.
DE: What were they like?
MC: Well, most of it I was, being a navigator I was immersed in my charts and Gee screens and things like that. Never looked out of the aircraft from one moment to the next and therefore, it was quite easy. Because of my flying experience and pilot training I used to give the skipper a bit of relief once we were over friendly territory and takeover the aircraft. In fact, there’s a picture of me sitting in the pilot's [pause] which was all very good but I’d be there for about half an hour or so until we were getting a bit nearer the station, the ‘drome and I had to get busy, get back and cook my log like mad as if I’d been actually navigating. Which was alright at times except a lot of the logs have comments on them. ‘You should have done more.’ Got more. And the reason I didn't was because I was piloting the aircraft [laughs] Which was alright. There was one time. Oh, by that time we had H2S, right, which the bomb aimer could was using to navigate us if you like while I was not navigating which was all very well until the one time he mistook, I'm not sure where maybe the Dutch thing. Anyhow, for Brussels and we arrived half an hour earlier than any other plane from the squadron which took a bit of [laughs] the nav officer said, ‘Why are your winds in a different direction to everybody else?’ However, that was life. It didn't worry one at all and I've got to admit that our operational life although we were doing, the tour was forty ops at that stage not thirty and in fact, the pilot used to do forty ops because his first op was one flying with another crew to get used to it. And the rest of the crew did thirty nine. Except I didn't of course because I volunteered to be a navigator to an Australian pilot who had, his navigator was ill. So I actually did forty trips. And that was a bit of a strange crew. However —
DE: What way was that strange?
MC: Well, I'm not sure that I should tell you [laughs] In the sense that once they got up to operational height they all lit fags. Now, that was completely verboten basically but, so I didn't join them I might say partly because I probably didn't have any with me [laughs] So what? They were still a very efficient crew. Darby Monroe was his name.
DE: I know there was some American aircraft and the stories go they had ashtrays.
MC: Really? Yeah. Well, of course one of my problems which were, you know, I’ve always from my very early days I had bladder problems and it was great that the Lanc had an Elsan at the back. When I, it's very strange, probably the first half hour I would want to go about four or five times. The rest of the trip I didn't. It didn’t happen. However, and of course well I've got to say that by and large it was a very enjoyable time on operations. The only thing I ever really saw was to feel the ack ack you know under the aircraft and so forth. We lost an engine once but nothing more than that. So we had a very good, I mean he was a good skipper, Johnny Ness and he was considerably older than I was but we got on very well together and I wonder what has happened to him since but, and of course as soon as we finished the tour he got posted to Canada. Back to Canada whereas I stayed on the station. [pause] Anyhow, that’s my war experience.
DE: Ok. You mentioned it was very easy to get into Cambridge. What, what sort of things did you do when you weren’t on ops and you had some, had some time?
MC: Went to pubs [laughs] I was not a dancer so I didn't go dancing. And well, went to one or two films and things like that. But I don't really recollect that much about it except one used to drink quite a lot in those days and if you weren't going to Cambridge you went to the bar and drank it there [laughs]. But I actually met my wife at a mess party at, in the officer’s mess and when I went back to Cambridge we hooked up again and eventually got married. In fact, I got married as an undergraduate because I was on a grant of course and you got an extra, you got a married grant if you got married. I mean we —
DE: Makes sense.
MC: Were really looked after. No. We were looked after very well. But obviously partly because at school I went up the Classics side of things and only swapped to the science side because I was looking at the stage or my father was looking to get me in the Navy but in the end I went and my brother being in the RAF anyhow, and he was stationed around here. Fiskerton, I think. 49 Squadron. Which I think Coningsby maybe. Fiskerton. Scampton. Somewhere. I think all those names ring a bell to me.
DE: Right.
MC: To me.
DE: Yeah. So he joined the RAF a few years ahead of you.
MC: Two years to the day. Our birthdays are the same. Two years apart.
DE: And that's what? 13th of November.
MC: November. Yes. I was born on his second birthday.
DE: Oh wow. Easy to remember then.
MC: Yeah. But it had the snag that we got joint birthday presents.
DE: And it's close to Christmas as well.
MC: Yeah. However, but he had a very, much more, he was squadron nav officer anyhow. I think for 49 Squadron.
DE: And he flew Manchesters as well as Lancasters.
MC: Well, yes I think he started on Wimpies and then went on to Manchesters and then of course fortunately the Lanc came along and they were very glad to see the end of the Manchester. It was underpowered. The only other aircraft I think, aircraft that had a bit of a quirk was the Stirling which had gravity feed fuel feed. So if you turn the Stirling at a very steep angle or even upside down the engines would cut out [laughs]. Oh well. Anyhow you've got me talking a long time.
DE: No. No. Yeah. You’re doing, doing fantastically. You've been going nearly forty minutes. A couple of other questions. When we were looking at some of the things that you've brought in you said, you mentioned the intelligence officer, was it Tommy Thompson?
MC: Yes. Yes.
DE: Could you tell me a bit about him? What was he like? What was his job?
MC: Well, basically, of course, he came to every briefing and gave any intelligence about extra dangers on the way across or anything like that but he also he and his staff interviewed us as we, after we landed and he went through the trip and so forth. But he was a very good friend and we used to play snooker and have a drink together. But he was a nice chap. He wasn't aircrew. He was ground crew but he was, I got on very well with Tommy. I didn't, well I’m just trying to think of what other interaction there was with him. I don't [pause] No. Just a good pal in the mess.
DE: Right. Yeah. Did you know any of the other ground staff?
MC: Well, there was, the other person who wasn’t ex-flying was of course the adjutant. He was, I didn't know him very well but knew him by name. And probably the, we were exceptional in the RAF that we used to take our ground crew out for drinks in the village at Waterbeach. Meet them at a pub and take them for an evening drinks which was un, sort of other Services the officers would not socialise with other ranks whereas we were quite happy to do that. I mean we knew we relied on them anyhow. The only time I had any other problem with, I think ground crew was, I'm not sure which raid it was, a long distance one and the bomb aimer was doing the bombing because it was out of range of GH. Out of the range of Gee. And we, he opened the bomb doors and I actually said, ‘We're not there yet.’ You know. So he closed them again until we got to the target area. He’d seen a dummy target of some sort and unfortunately the camera took a picture of the bombs away when it actually opened the bomb doors and didn't. The bombs weren’t away. So when we got home we were accused of being umpteen miles short of the thing and we said, ‘No. No.’ And it came around to this why you stick to your story and the corporal photographer will be put on a charge or you don’t. So, we did stick to our story [pause] I don't think there's anything else I can add.
DE: Did you have anything to do with the medical officer there?
MC: No. I wouldn’t think so. No. No.[pause] I can't recollect anything to do with him anyhow.
DE: Again, just before we started recording we had a little discussion about there was an explosion there. Can you —
MC: Yeah.
DE: Could you tell me any more?
MC: We were in briefing at the time actually. In briefing, and we suddenly heard this explosion and of course the op was cancelled, briefing was cancelled and so forth and we heard afterwards it was a bomb that had dropped and exploded. And of course, there were casualties. In fact, I did ask Peter Smith I think who was showing us around the IBCC whether he, he knew of that and he did seem to know of it.
DE: Yes. I believe the names of the people who lost their lives in that explosion are on the Memorial.
MC: Are they? Oh.
DE: Still on with, with things on the ground you said you took the, you went out with the ground crew for drinks.
MC: Yeah.
DE: Did you always have the same aircraft and the same ground crew?
MC: No, but we, there was one aircraft we flew more than others, I think. Probably, was it C for Charlie? I can't remember. But there was that particular ground crew that we knew anyhow because they were, you know, in attendance when we got to the aircraft and so forth. So, we knew. We knew them and we used to invite them up probably once a month or something like that, you know. Not that regularly but just locally to the village, you know where there were plenty of pubs [laughs].
DE: Fantastic. What happened to your brother? Did he manage to finish his tour?
MC: He did finish. In fact, he seconded to BOAC and then in fact joined BOAC and flew with them out to South Africa as navigator and so forth and other places. But, South America mainly actually he flew come to think of it and on, oh, I don't know. What was it? No. I don’t know what his aircraft was but, and then he I think he was still with them when they became British Airways. Then they didn't want navigators anymore because the navigation in the Western Hemisphere had got to a stage, beacons and so forth and therefore he emigrated to New Zealand and joined Air New Zealand to train other navigators out there. But he, he had a far more torrid operational experience than I did.
DE: Yeah.
MC: Without a doubt. And he was 5 Group in this area.
DE: Yes.
MC: Whereas I was 3 Group, of course in, around the Cambridge area. And it was 3 Group who did the GH bombing basically.
DE: Yeah.
MC: So, as I said earlier I think I released the bombs as much as the bomb aimer did on [pause] but it was something one did. You didn’t have to think about it too deeply. And I suppose we all thought Bomber Harris was a hero and he stuck to his guns. But —
DE: What do you think about the way the Bomber Command and Harris and the campaign has been remembered?
MC: Well, it was, I've got to say that after a year or two one did wonder what one, what one was doing. Was it right or was it not? And, and of course that was general. I mean, that’s why Bomber Command took a long time to be recognised. Because people didn't want to talk about it and they were of course one or two instances where things, the firestorms and so forth were shocking. But actually, at the time one did what was one’s duty sort of thing but afterwards one wondered was it right. Anyway, who can tell? After the war of course, after VE Day we flew some food out or food parcels to the Netherlands and took about, about a dozen, I think Belgian refugees back to Brussels. Flew them back. One of whom was Mrs five-by-five and really because she was quite a considerable weight the skipper insisted that she go forward of the main spar. Now, I don't know if you know the main spar but like I say —
DE: Yes.
MC: But there was no way she was going to get over this and so we had to get hold of her leg and put her leg over to one side and then lift her up and rock her over it. The number of petticoats she was wearing [laughs] Oh dear. We got there anyhow but to see their faces and their joy when they saw they were over their own country was fantastic. But that was quite an exercise. Then of course we flew back some prisoners of war. Twenty four on a trip I think. And, and then it, I can't remember the name of the station we landed at but anyhow —
DE: What was that like? Flying them home?
MC: Oh, ok. They were, they were quite subdued I'd say really and obviously one was doing one’s own thing and therefore one didn't really get that much to talk to them. Again, of course they were very happy to come back home. In fact, my wife's, my brother’s wife’s brother-in-law was a prisoner of war in the RAF. Yeah. He, and when he came back we used to, he lived in Malvern and we used to go out with him, He ended up as my bank manager [laughs] which was quite useful. He studied while he was actually a prisoner of war and [pause] That must be the end I think. I must have dried up by now surely.
DE: Ok. Well, unless there’s anything else that you can think of to tell me.
MC: Well, I can't think there's anything else that would interest. Well, I mean, with John Tully in Devon. He could drink a pint of scrumpy and a pint of bitter and all the locals were waiting for his legs to fold. They didn't. And he had us lost in town. He drove us back to Dunkeswell. The next morning he would say, ‘Martin, what did we do last night [laughs] You know. Before any drink driving. But in fact, there was nothing on the roads really at that stage.
DE: No.
MC: One often wonders where they, what happened to them since and so forth. I went to one or two squadron reunions but in the end I went to them and I hardly knew anyone there. So they’ll say they were at Waterbeach or [pause] and Waterbeach of course was taken over by as an Army training place. We did have a little museum there but what's happened to that I don't know. Right. Well, I can't think.
DE: Well, I’ll switch it off. It’s just quite often what happens is I’ll press stop and then you'll say, ‘Oh, there's another thing. Thank you very much.
MC: Well, I –
DE: It's wonderful to talk to you.
MC: I don’t think it’s been much use to you but be that as it may. It’s memories disjointed and so forth.
DE: No. It's been marvellous. Thank you very much.
MC: Oh right.
DE: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Martin Arthur Catty
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACattyMA180822
Description
An account of the resource
Martin Catty grew up in London and was evacuated to Westward Ho! with his school at the beginning of the war. He completed a short training course at Cambridge University in 1942 and joined Air Force. After training he flew 40 operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron from RAF Waterbeach. He describes how many of his operations were in daylight and using GH, so he often released the bombs. He mentions turning a Tiger Moth upside down after landing in a dust-storm during training, and how he ‘cooked’ his navigation log after he had taken control of the aircraft to give his pilot a rest. He recalls flying with another crew who smoked in the aircraft and discusses using the Elsan. Discusses some of the ground personnel and an explosion after a bomb fell from an aircraft at RAF Waterbeach in 1944. He became the navigator for the RAF Waterbeach base test crew after his tour, and after the war he flew as part of a ferry crew, taking ground crew to the Middle East, and also was an instructor for landing using the blind approach beacon. He was demobbed in October 1946 and completed a degree in engineering. Discusses his elder brother who also flew as a navigator and then flew for BOAC. He worked in management roles for The General Electric Company until he retired.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Manitoba--Brandon
Manitoba--Virden
Manitoba--Winnipeg
New Brunswick--Moncton
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Westward Ho
England--Yorkshire
Israel
United States
New York (State)--New York
North Africa
New York (State)
New Brunswick
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Devon
Manitoba
Format
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00:51:53 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
3 Group
514 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
entertainment
evacuation
Gee
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
love and romance
Manchester
military discipline
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Feltwell
RAF Stradishall
RAF Waterbeach
sanitation
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/349/3518/PWhiteRR1601.1.jpg
fe069536c41a571ddb9dd906a128148a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/349/3518/AWhiteRR160607.2.mp3
8a1d50dfd1e1ebd27540c7db00715556
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
White, Ralph
Ralph Robert White
Ralph R White
R R White
R White
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Ralph Robert White (1923 - 2021, 427630 Royal Australian Air Force), a training report and four photographs. He flew operations with 192 Squadron from RAF Foulsham.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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White, RR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Ralph White. A 192 Squadron Halifax skipper. A Special Duties squadron he tells me. The interview is taking place at Ralph’s place in Burwood in Melbourne. It is the 7th of June 2016. My name’s Adam Purcell. Ralph, we might start from the beginning.
RW: Yes.
AP: If you don’t mind.
RW: Not at all.
AP: Can you tell me something of what you were doing before the war and where you were when you heard that war had been declared?
RW: Initially I was employed as a junior clerk or office boy at the Melbourne City Council. From there, when the [pause] when I turned eighteen I wanted to join the air force. But my parents were not signing forms. So I then made a very silly mistake and joined the army and I spent eighteen months in an infantry battalion. Which — when the, when the Americans came into the war 7th of December ‘41 the unit I was with got, were sent to Western Australia. So while spending my time in Western Australia I got up as far as Geraldton and they were looking for aircrew trainees to join the air force. So I volunteered as an air crew cadet in from Geraldton starting off with recruit training in Busselton and then sent as an aircrew guard while we were waiting to start ITS training. Poor aircrew. You were made aircrew guards which didn’t, didn’t worry us, being out of the army. The guard duty was ok except that when we got to Pearce which was the air force main ‘drome in those days — located nearby was petrol dumps. Forty four gallon drums of petrol in the bush and it was our job at night to guard the petrol dumps because light fingered Perthites were coming out and stealing forty four gallon drums of petrol. But once, not — I didn’t do it, but someone caught someone or someone had pulled up in a car so they felt suspicious and they fired a shot and we were never troubled with them again. So that was the start of my aircrew career as a cadet. From there, once initial training started after we’d done our duties as air crew guards we were sent to Victor Harbour. ITS at Victor Harbour. EFTS at Benalla. Went solo at Benalla on Tiger Moths. Over to Mallala on Ansons. Got my wings at Mallala. Came back to Point Cook to do beam studies and from there was sent to the UK to start with the RAF.
AP: How — alright tell me about your first solo.
RW: First solo. Oh God I wish you hadn’t as a matter of fact [laughs] At Benalla. Yes. Went about, it was about seven and a half hours I think that was there and I had a very good instructor. The instructor had four pupils. One of them was scrubbed. That meant three of us. But when it was my turn to do the solo trip Mr, Squadron Leader Kinnear was a very big man. And squadron leader. And I did the solo test with him which was the usual things. Loops, slow rolls, stalls and just little areas before we did the circuits and bumps just to pass the pilot’s test. And then coming in to land I really didn’t take into account that he was a very big man in the front cockpit. Which, when I came into land it sank too quickly on me and I bounced across [laughs] across the aerodrome which wasn’t the right way to go. However, I said to him there, I said, Oh, you know, ‘I’m sorry sir but I reckon I can do better than that.’ He reply was, ‘I wouldn’t fly with you again. Too dangerous.’ So I got, I got my wings. So that was that. So I wish you hadn’t asked me because it was not done in glory.
AP: It very rarely is. What was a typical day like at EFTS? What sort of things were you actually doing?
RW: What? At Mallala?
AP: EFTS. So Benalla.
RW: EFTS. EFTS would be — each time you’d practice something different. First was familiarisation. Just on there. With an instructor. Practicing stalls and spins and recovery. And from then on you were sent out to practice by yourself. Every couple of days they might give you a taxiing test or something of that nature. But it was just a matter of going up, practicing yourself and coming back. Stall turns. You know some aerobatics you did better than, or I enjoyed better than others. But as a slow roller I was impossible. The, I’d lose so many feet, about five hundred feet every time I tried to slow roll. It was never done graciously. But that was about it. It was a matter of getting, I think, eighty hours. I think I had to get eighty hours up before they’d pass you on to the next unit at Mallala.
AP: And what did you think of the — what did you think of the Tiger Moth?
RW: I loved it. I think it was great fun. It was more or less a joy ride really. Really. It was responsive. It never let you down. If you did the right thing the old Tiger would do what you told it. But apart from that it never gave me any trouble.
AP: An instructor of mine once said, ‘A Tiger Moth is easy to fly but hard to fly well.’
RW: Well yeah. Well, I can remember an instructor once saying to me, ‘No matter what way you fly as long as you do it smoothly,’ which was fair enough but they won’t let you down. The funny side in all of it really when you’re saying about Benalla, thinking back we had similar weather to what we’re experiencing at the moment. That, the first flights in the morning that took off this particular day when we, when we were coming in from whatever shift we were going to do the flying the afternoon there were five Tiger Moths all with their nose in the ground. All sitting up. They had landed but the ground was boggy and they all tipped over. All you could see across the field was Tiger Moths.
AP: I was, I was actually going to ask you about accidents in training. Were they common? Did you see a lot of them?
RW: Not really. No. The only trouble was that sometimes before you were told to do something I’d go out and say, practice stall turns, practice fancy slide slipping. I can’t think what other ones we were, but at one stage we weren’t allowed to, we weren’t allowed to do a loop until we’d had a few more hours up. And one of the boys tried to do the loop. Stalled at the top. Spun in. And actually he got out of it which was lucky. He didn’t get killed but just badly shaken up but showed him that, you know, when you get to the top of the loop you just have to have sufficient speed to get out at the top.
AP: Nothing has changed. The laws of physics are exactly the same. Yeah. Very good.
RW: But you can’t help enjoying flying a Tiger Moth. It was just pure fun.
AP: I would agree exactly with that. Absolutely. What sort of things happened at Mallala?
RW: Mallala was modest flying. The old Anson. It wasn’t a good, I don’t think it was a good aircraft to train on because with the coming in to land with an Anson you were given a speed. I think it was, from memory, sixty. I think we still operated sixty with dual aircraft. Flying two together. Two pilots. We were usually flying together so one would do one hour as pilot and you’d sit back and do navigating. And then the other chap would have a turn of his hour flying. And they were very bad because as you might remember from the Tiger Moth you don’t pick up a stall with your ailerons. And with an Anson you could pick up a stall with your ailerons. You’d have to pop out and kick the wing and it’d come good. It was that placid. It used to stall at forty seven. It was nearly stopped. So I, from that area, a lot of the chaps we were with that went solo at Mallala, from Mallala, and stayed in Australia they went on to Beauforts. And I often, I often put down to the fact that so many of our lads went on to Beauforts and spun in. And I think it was picking up their wings with their ailerons. But that was some of the things. Very awkward to fly solo. You had to do solo flying in an Anson but it meant getting out of your seat and changing petrol tanks and they were sliding ones. Ones that you slide up and slide down cutting off and they weren’t ever maintained very well. But you had to get out of your seat, get over to the side of the aircraft and try and change tanks and get back to the seat again before you hit the ground. Very rough. It was all good training. ‘Cause when we got to Point Cook after we got our wings we didn’t know we were alive when we got on to the Oxfords at Point Cook because they were comfortable. Automatic undercarriage and flaps and all those sorts of things. It was good.
AP: Moving up in the world.
RW: But learning to fly in Australia was very easy compared to going over to the UK. Picking up the practice of flying there that they were more precise. When you got to the UK in the RAF initially we had to wait a while before we could start flying. And I did something that you’d be familiar with. We had to learn aerodrome control. Which was, was good fun at the time but the practice then of course was the way you approached it you approached the landing and did your circuit before you landed each time which made it a bit of hold up when you were trying to land. The queuing up to get on the ground particularly if it was two squadrons on one station was a bit, a bit tricky. But the Ansons never gave us any trouble as I can recall really. The, the second pilot in an Anson used to set up as a single pilot but the co-pilot had to plunge his control in with, you know, a ratchet to get the controls picked up. And quite often it would jam and wouldn’t do it so you were left to hang on ‘til the co-pilot could do change over and change pilots. But they were very old fashioned. Lovely old things. They had no vices. That’s why a Lancaster has got no vices. I think they learned a lot from that.
AP: Avro. Avro. Yeah. Background coming through I suppose. Can you remember much of the process of a beam approach? You were saying you did beam approaches at Point Cook. Can you just tell how they worked and what they were.
RW: Well beam approach. Beam approaching the point, that of course, you understand that the beam approach is a beam. A signal that you’re getting and once you get on to a beam it’s a single note until you drift off the beam. If you go to the left well you get dit dit dit dit dit so you know you’ve come off the beam. Steady note and your, and the other one would be a dash, dah dah just to try and get you back on the thing. But the beam set up in Point Cook was what they called a four degree beam that went out in that. The further you got out the wider the beam was. And when we got to the UK of course, we said yes we’d done beam work. ‘Righto. Off you go and do beam work on Oxfords.’ But their degree of signal was point four — not four degrees. It was point four of a degree. So you really once you got near the control that was sending out the beam you had to be spot on. Which was good. Once again good training. But to be truthful when you think back on it we didn’t use the beam that much. Occasionally with the fog you might try and put it on but you were never left to go around training too long while the fog was coming in and you couldn’t find the approach.
AP: So beam approach though — you trained on them though.
RW: You trained on them but you never, never used it.
AP: Not usually used in anger.
RW: Well, I don’t remember. Maybe some other people did. I can’t remember. At Foulsham, when I, when I finally got to 192 the, the aerodrome there at Norfolk was on low lands but it was fitted with FIDO so we had the approach shown with the burning the old FIDO so we didn’t really need the beam.
AP: That’s, that’s one way of getting around it I suppose. Fair enough.
RW: I never used it anyway because each time, coming back we were usually in the mornings and it was ok.
AP: How did you get to the UK?
RW: Oh the UK. From Sydney. There on an American vessel. I think it was nineteen days to San Francisco. Across the States by train to New York. And then from New York to Gourock in Scotland on the Isle de France. A big French liner that eventually was sunk in the harbour. At New York — sabotaged. Sabotaged but we got there. It was big but very rough getting there and what I liked about it — when we landed in Gourock which was just up north of Glasgow I read the notice in the train. It didn’t say if there’s an air raid. It said when there’s an air raid you do — [laughs] so it was just a difference.
AP: That was, that was going to be my next question actually. First impressions of wartime. Of the UK in wartime.
RW: That surprised me because we got down to Brighton there. Once we got off the boat we went to Brighton to wait. To wait to start our training again. Flying training after doing the aerodrome control. But it [pause] very close. Brighton’s not that far. It’s only twenty two miles, I think, across the channel to, to the occupied France at that stage. And every now and then a 109 would come over and particularly on parade mornings. He’d come up, rip up to Brighton and try and catch us, you know if we were on the parade ground and things like that. That’s what you got used to it. And then of course going to London occasional raids coming across until — you know the raids really stopped and then started again with the buzz bombs and that sort of thing but we got used to it there. The people sort of take it naturally. I can remember even going down Brighton this 109 used to come across at regular intervals. But people would be queuing up for something. Old ladies. You know. Civilians. And blokes going to pubs. And as the warning came out that he was coming again people would just drop on the ground. Once he flew over they’d all stand up again. So that took a bit of getting used to.
AP: Just a part of life I suppose.
RW: It was really.
AP: Yeah.
RW: And particularly going in to London. To see them sleeping on the underground tube stations.
AP: Yeah. I’ll be there in a minute. So you mentioned aerodrome control. Tell me a bit about that.
RW: Well it would be so different from yours. The girls did it all. It was just that we were standing by in case we were needed. But originally the idea was you would ask for permission to land which was always cheating because within ten miles [laughs] ‘I’m number one.’ Everyone dodging their position, but the idea was you came over, identified yourself over the ‘drome. You went on the, about at a thousand feet straight down the runway, to the crosswind. You’d go cross wind and tell them when you were turning cross wind. Go across wind. Come down wind. Down wind, middle of the down wind you’d let the tower know that you were downwind. Then you were turning in to crosswind again and then once you were in the funnels you said, if you were in funnels you just notified you’re in the funnels and you were given the ok to land. But that’s all it was. It was just an acknowledgment and then you had each one doing it and then turn. And you spaced yourself out. Now, does that make sense to you?
AP: Yeah I can, I can understand. I’ve got a vague idea.
RW: It’s none of this coming straight in [laughs]
AP: No. No. Of course not. No. Of course not. Just sort of moving, moving forward a little bit.
RW: Yes.
AP: To, to operational life.
RW: Yes.
AP: You said, you know, when two squadrons arrive at the same time. How did they sort that out?
RW: Well, they just, as you, as you called in. Whichever your call sign was. They’d give you a spot. In other words you know, when you were overhead. If you were overhead you told them you were overhead. If you said you were approaching then they’d give you a situation. If you got too many there that, around, that they were, you were starting to stack them around the aerodrome which was a bit dangerous then they’d send you off on a cross country. Give you a, you know —
AP: Come back.
RW: Anyone short of fuel would be happy but being on special duties we didn’t carry a bomb so we only carried overloads. So at any time we came in we were always sent on cross-countrys. They knew we weren’t and of course cunning ones that had lost a motor you know they would say, ‘I’m approaching on three.’
AP: On three.
RW: Or something like this. To get priority. Feather his motor.
AP: One veteran I have interviewed for this programme said — he was a wireless operator and he said he patched in the more powerful power supply in to their RT.
RW: Yeah.
AP: So that they had a range of thirty miles.
RW: Oh yes. That’s it.
AP: Instead of fifteen.
RW: He’d be saying he was overhead and he could be thirty miles away.
AP: That’s right. Sneaky.
RW: And I think after a while the, I think the signal would come in and then they realised they were weak and you’d say, ‘Stand by,’ and if you could understand he was cheating a bit because we [pause] normally, on special duties, they were very secretive. And of course we only would, sometimes only use two out of the squadron and things of that nature and wherever you were sent was a little bit off key because instead of being through Bomber Command you went through Air Ministry. Which was rather unusual. Now, now you might have to correct me here but I think our instructions came through Air Ministry. From department A14. That doesn’t mean a thing but it was out of Air Ministry. It wasn’t out of Bomber Command because old Butch, he can’t stand — unless you were dropping a bomb you’re no use [laughs] but we were given that and would have been given the — I’d better not get too far ahead of myself.
AP: That’s alright. We’ll, we’ll —
RW: But that was the idea. There was always a little bit of a give and take with the approaching.
AP: Very good. Alright. After Brighton what happened next?
RW: After Brighton, went back on to Tiger Moths. Of all things at a place called Fairoaks but it was really Windsor Castle’s —
AP: Take a couple.
RW: With Fairoaks and we were given, and we were now sent to Smith’s Lawns. Smith Lawn, which was Windsor Castle’s own private airfield. So we did our flying from Windsor Castle. Smith’s Lawn it was known as. And that was just, just routine. Getting familiar with English conditions and flying the Tiger Moth. We weren’t particularly given any aerobatics to do. It was mainly cross-countrys and things of that nature to get us used to the countryside really. Because as we, as we went there you got a bit sick of just doing cross-countrys because I remember once that they’d taken all the street names down. I shouldn’t say town names so it was always a cunning move if you were ever lost was to try and nip down to a railway station to see what the [laughs] where you were. And they didn’t have that there so I was going in and out doing this cross-country. So many hours up and back on different courses they give you. And I’d put, “Crossed road. Crossed railway. Crossed road.” I couldn’t mention, I didn’t know a town. Any there. When I handed my navigation papers in the instructor very sneeringly said, ‘What did you do? Go by road and come by rail?’ [laughs] But no that was the sort of training we did there and from there on I don’t know how many hours we would have done there. It was very interesting being at Smiths Lawn being Windsor Castle. We had one of the lads on flight with us. An English lad. Or English Czechoslovakian. He was royalty from — Prince, oh I know, he was Prince Peter. And he was from Yugoslavia or somewhere. One of those states over there . And as a result with the prince there the RAF were looking after him a bit. So when it came Sunday we were all invited to go to the chapel at Windsor Castle with the royal family. And it was interesting too. He of course went off and sat with the royalty. The ones he knew. But we, the lads we all stood at the back there of the chapel just having a good look around. But of course it was Princess Margaret and Princess Elizabeth were there with the King. King and queen. And afterwards we went for a bit of a tour around the, around the castle and we got to their own home garden and of course the royal family were interested in growing food for, for the sake of wartime restrictions. And we noticed that Princess Elizabeth’s garden, she had a plot of her own, it was perfect. You know beautifully done. And I thought, oh I know what’s happened here. You know they’ve got the gardeners to do it for her. Then we were taken [laughs] then we were taken to see Princess Margaret’s garden and it was a shambles [laughs]. Weeds and everything. So no she obviously did her own gardening and so did the king and queen. We presumed. We didn’t look at theirs. But that was just one little thing.
AP: Yeah.
RW: That was Smith’s Lawn. While we were waiting then to go back to, to go on to Oxfords. Our next.
AP: What particularly made England different to fly in than Australia?
RW: The, the amount of flying from Tiger Moths and the Ansons we had there was that here we have set towns. You know you’d go to Benalla. You know you’d hardly, I’ve forgotten half the towns up there now. Wangaratta, and the different, Winton Lakes and things but in England there were villages and towns and little bits and pieces here, there, everywhere. Like a patchwork quilt compared to an expanse. And that’s what we got used to. One of the things that the aerodromes, usually — not like ours you know. Benella was miles away and there wasn’t another aerodrome anywhere near it. But if we were in England there was an aerodrome somewhere near you somewhere so you had to watch your pick. In fact, it got to the stage of, really in the UK that on the approach to the different ‘dromes — like Foulsham would be FU. You’d see FU up there so you’d know you were heading for Foulsham. But there would be five or six ‘dromes all around that you could jump into if, if you knew who they were. But you had no identification really from small towns. In other words I’m thinking of when we got to South Cerney when we did proper navigation we flew at Bibury which was a little village say a couple of miles away. Then further north was Cheltenham and Gloucester and places. Not Gloucester. Oh, Cheltenham. See I’ve lost track of the towns but they were bigger towns heading towards Manchester and the Cotswolds and places like that. But it was different flying. You had to get used to the difference of finding out where you were. But eventually that was while we were just flying on AFU. Just on, we were virtually doing solo in the Oxfords.
AP: Alright. What happened after that?
RW: After that. That was beam. Once we got on to Oxfords you went and did the beam course again and then you did advanced flying. Even to the extent of, a lot of the instructors you had at AFU were ex-operational pilots having a rest from operations. And the, it was just a matter of flying around and getting used to things. One of them even said you know who we were flying around with the instructor would get in and say oh we’ll go in flying here, there and everywhere and go down towards Bath or some place like that. And he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘It’s too nice just to be sitting here doing nothing.’ He said, ‘How would you like to try a roll?’ And I thought, my God. A roll. I was rotten in a Tiger [laughs]
AP: Rolling in an Oxford.
RW: He said, ‘Let’s do a roll.’ I’d do the roll, but of course he did the roll but it meant that we had to stay in the air for ten minutes because all the gyros had tumbled [laughs] So that was, that was your training for not using your instruments all the time. You couldn’t use your instruments for ten minutes. But that was it. He was a Canadian pilot but he didn’t, he did the roll alright but it was a barrel roll. But I thought I’ll do it when I’m not seen.
AP: A bit flak happy perhaps.
RW: He could have been. Yes.
AP: Yeah.
RW: I think he was actually relaxing after operational stuff. I don’t know what he, I can’t remember what he came off to start with but a lot of them weren’t staff pilots there. You had a lot of staff pilots on these places to beam courses.
AP: Alright. And the next step was Operational Training Unit.
RW: OTU. Yes. OTU was good. That was on Wellingtons. Wellington 10s. I did pretty well on, on Wellingtons except the aircraft we were flying. They were clapped out. We had to do, you know, cross countrys at night and this sort of thing to imitation targets and that type of training. Getting used to it. Getting used to night affiliation where you’d get attacked by a fighter aircraft with cameras to see how you go. But on one occasion there the aircraft I picked up was u/s. It was u/s. You couldn’t fly it that night. So we had to get out of that, go and get another aircraft and then pick up with a dummy raid. But it meant I got attacked left, right and centre but halfway through it I lost a motor. And then I had a fire in the, a fire in the wireless ops room. He put the fire out. I said, ‘Righto Lin.’ They were always grizzling they never came out front to have a look out. So I said to Lin, the wireless op, I said, ‘Come up and have a look out now. Now that you’ve put the fire out.’ No sooner got him sitting up front there than the motor went. And of course — had to go home. So we came home and of all things had to do a, I had to a left hand circuit instead of a right hand circuit because I’d lost the port motor. And it came in on one and put it down beautifully, I say it myself because It was a perfect landing and the crew reckoned it was only perfect one I ever did [laughs] But that was, that gave me a, I think that started off why I finished up on special duties because I got reassessed as above average and then, well volunteered for required, didn’t require, ‘Would you volunteer for Pathfinders?’ ‘Yes,’ and was accepted for Pathfinders. And the crew. And that was at OTU so that was on Wellingtons to then, and got, and got a commission. I was commissioned from OTU and then finished up joining, doing heavy duty conversion to the big, to the Halifax 3s and eventually a squadron.
AP: Tell me how you met your crew.
RW: The old — everyone in the hangar [laughs] Yes. Now, the, the hangar there. There was twenty pilots, nineteen navs because I had, I had a navigator with me that I wasn’t satisfied so I had to leave him behind to do more training. Bomb aimer, wireless op and forty gunners. And when I went in to the place there a little bloke came up to me and said, ‘Have you got a crew yet?’ and I said, ‘No. Would you like to be mine?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ And he was the wireless operator. In the meantime he’d gathered a bomb aimer and one gunner. But that was, it just sorted out. Eventually the navigator was replaced because he would have been a sick, a navigator gone sick the previous course so he was a spare and I picked him up as a spare and I used him all the way through.
AP: What — what sort of things did you do when you were on leave in England to relax?
RW: We’d go to Lady Ryder’s billets and things. I didn’t have a girlfriend or anything like that. I was sort of a bit keen on the flying and all that sort of thing and a bit more, I was interested in, you know, I wanted to be a pilot and that was it. But a lot of the boys had girlfriends. The crew. OTU there was an Australian pilot. We jumped up together. We’d flown since the time we left Australia till we came to OTU and he and I would probably go to a different billet as they were called in those days. Staying with different people and enjoying the peaceful side. Go to Edinburgh for a trip up to see what Edinburgh was like. Glasgow. But that’s about all on leave. There was, I didn’t have any relatives over there to visit but that would be about all I can recall really what we did on leave. Go and get, go to — you’d mix with different courses you were on. Perhaps you’d get someone a bit familiar when you were at AFU. There would just be pilots only so you were more or less stuck with pilots. Perhaps if you met a mate there you would go and have a few drinks and go into town for a night. That business. Have a drink up.
AP: What was, what was the local pub like? What sort of things happened?
RW: The local pubs. The AFU was Cheltenham and you got to know how to get over the back fence. And that rationing had come in and every now and then they ran out of beer so you had to know which fence you have to go in. A lot of the beer in the pubs in, particularly in Cheltenham, very posh towns there. Very lovely towns really. And to go into the pubs in our dark blue uniforms quite often they had, instead of beer they’d have ciders and you got used to watching your step there. I was leaning on the bar, with my elbow on the bar, sort of, say drinking and with that the barmaid come up and said, ‘Love take your elbow off the bar, it’s in all the drinks.’ And I said, ‘Oh sorry.’ She said, ‘No. It takes the dye out of your uniform.’ [laughs] So I had better watch this. You did meet the locals in the pubs. They’d quite often take you on. Or they’d be playing darts and they’d be all over the place like madwomen on scooters. You know they’d be throwing their — and whatever game they’d challenge you to a game. And of course immediately they challenged out came their special darts. You’d play them. You’d play. They’d beat you and you’d have to buy them a beer. But they were cunning. They conned us [laughs]
AP: What, what was your first impression of a Halifax?
RW: The Hali I thought was lovely. I was very impressed. Actually when I did the aerodrome control it was Halies then but of course they were the old Hali 2s and 5s when I was doing that. And once again when you’d done Conversion Unit. They’d all been all clapped out. The aircraft we were flying had been ex-French squadrons we were using but when I got used to her she was beautiful. I loved the Hali. She was good to fly. She was responsive. Never gave me any trouble. The only thing I’d say that was wrong with the Halifax I think everybody had the same trouble — brakes. The brakes weren’t effective. You know, you’d have full brake on and you’d still keep going. But I liked the Bristol Hercules. They were very powerful engines so she could climb like a homesick angel as we’d say. They were good. They were comfortable. They were responsive to fly. I had no complaint with them.
AP: Alright. Now you’re getting towards your squadron at this point. Where was that?
RW: Squadron. Yeah. 192.
AP: Where was 192 based?
RW: Hmmn?
AP: Where was the squadron based?
RW: This was in Foulsham in Norfolk.
AP: Foulsham. That’s right. Cool. Right. So where and how did you live at Foulsham?
RW: Lived there as, once again an officer at that stage so that was in billets mainly. Mainly pilots together because the crew was still — the flight engineer was, he had done a special tour. He had already done one tour, the flight engineer. Which we picked up at Marston Moor when we did the conversion. So he was, he would be in the officer’s mess with us and and the rest of the crew would be in NCO quarters. But we were usually two to a room perhaps. That would be — mostly if you got a room on your own you were lucky. But they’d bunk you in with someone else. And 192 of course had, as I’ve showed you that photo with, they were all the Halifax pilots but we had a Mosquito flight on 192 because when you, when you accepted special duties we weren’t bound by the thirty, thirty trips for a tour. We had to do forty five straight. And once you were forty five straight you were tour expired. They never wanted you again on that. For that reason. So you were a little bit different from Bomber Command itself because we had our own set up there. And it was comfortable. Good living. It’s just someone that spoke to me the other day. In fact it was Laurie Macpherson? Laurie. Laurie Larmer?
AP: Oh Laurie Larmer. Yeah. of course.
RW: Laurie. We were talking to him and he said, ‘Whitey, can you remember when we got the bacon and eggs before we went on a trip?’ And I said, ‘Oh yes.’ He said, ‘What time did you get it?’ And I said, ‘We used to get it about, I don’t know, depending on what time we were going out. 11 o’clock. I don’t know. 12 o’clock. Depending on when we were going to fly out. Yeah.’ He said, ‘Ah. We used to have ours in the morning.’ And I said, ‘What?’ Then I didn’t realise. He was doing daylights.
AP: Oh of course.
RW: Because we were all, we were still doing night work so it was just one of those things. You forget little things like that. The same old thing. People could never get used to it. Telling you about, you know how the Benzedrine tablets were there to take, you know. These days we would have had so many druggies we wouldn’t have known what happened [laughs] But that was, I didn’t realised that the Benzedrine tablets were to keep you alert whilst — I never used them which I was lucky to say. But some people did. They’d sort of get their Benzedrine, they’d take the wakey wakey as it was called and of course then all of a sudden the op would be cancelled and they were bright eyed. They’d sit there playing billiards half the night because they were awake [laughs] I learned that but I believe the idea was you took your Benzedrine tablet when you were coming in to the target and of course — so as far as we were concerned we found that very often we didn’t have targets. We, most of the time if it was a special we were escorting a bomber group out you’d got the track drawn in. I think with operational units the track was in the, the navigator didn’t have to alter course for as long as it was in the ten mile bracket that they gave for the ten. Now we were, one of us would be on one side and one, the other from 192 would be on the other side checking on the counter measures. It was all radar. Radar. Radio and radar counter measures. Basically with the special operator. And of course depending on which operator you had, he wasn’t a regular one. When you had to there were two waves going in. We had to hang around the target area whilst the next wave was coming in which was usually two minutes and two minutes and two minutes. So it was always hang around waiting and not very often we would change over. We wouldn’t be in communication with the other 192 bloke and just hang around. The big thing was that when we did go out because normally we would just wander. They’d give us so many set courses to go and fly and we were just flying with the, with the RCMs listening in to what they could do. If they, if they went on a target then the German speaking one would — with 192 they can tune into the, we could tune into the Germans talking. And of course no good for us but the German translator he could chip in to give them the fighters the wrong info which was a bit sneaky [laughs] But no the funniest thing was that on one of the ones that we were in just out of Oslo. Norway. Tonsberg. When we came and the bombers had done their two minutes and we were hanging around waiting for the next wave to come in and while we were doing and whilst we were there we were having a marvellous time. We could see the lights of Sweden in the distance so we were busy. So busy were we looking around not being alert. We were looking at the lights of Stockholm or wherever it was and over us — we were here and over like that, it would have been as high as this ceiling an 88 went right, just over us like that. Here I am down sitting here. We’re having seven or eight blokes all supposed to be looking out for it and he just went. In fact I can see, I can still see the dirt on its belly to this day and I ducked [laughs] But it one of those things that only goes to show you, you know a moment’s lack of concentrations. Everyone’s gazing. And I think the German bloke was doing the same thing. I think he was looking at the lights and wasn’t looking because after a while our operators could pick out when, when we were being tabbed. And the Germans were very good at your height. The flak bursts were pretty well spot on with the height but they couldn’t find you just where you were. And the rear gunner was always very much aware that if he saw two flashes coming very close to his tail he’d let us know when to divert and get away from it. But that’s about it really. About the only excitement we ever had. Except that while we were cruising around, and before all this aircraft where the 88 went over us the crew said, ‘How about,’ because we had money. We carried the gold sovereigns to give to the patriots, ‘Why don’t we have a forced landing in Sweden, spend the money, wait for them to rescue us and we’ll go home and perhaps the war will be finished.’ Which it wasn’t at that stage. And I was the most miserable man you’ve ever met. ‘I said Martin. Mark. You won’t do it. You won’t do it,’[laughs] It was just a bit of a joke but that I think was why we were, I can say messing around arguing about whether we should make a forced landing in Sweden just to get rescued.
AP: A very, very forced landing.
RW: Where was the honour amongst thieves I don’t know.
AP: So what, what sort of things— you were talking about the German speaking operators.
RW: He was special, he would come in once we’d — we didn’t know what they were doing really. We had no idea. They, they’d come and get on board. They were always known, as far as we were concerned they was a co-pilot. Just a squadron bloke learning to, if you got, if you were forced down he was Milner. I only knew him. He just joined us to do an experienced trip. You know. You knew nothing about him because you couldn’t let on that he knew how to speak German if you were forced down. But that’s about it really. I don’t know really what else I can tell you.
AP: What I was just trying, I have been reading a little bit about the radio counter measures.
RW: Indeed.
AP: And the sorts of things that were done.
RW: Initially we were told about the idea. Because, you know we thought oh bloody hell, you know. We want to drop bombs when you go there and special duties were ok but it was just special duties on what we were doing. Just fiddling around with the special operator. And it was initially told to us that the Window was cut to a certain length and it had to be cut to the length of whatever the radar, or the radios were working on. So that the window would be effective against jamming the radar. But I don’t know if that’s right or not. That’s my recollection of what we were told we were doing. And the idea was that if you, no matter where were just floating around in a — going up to Norway you know. It was still active so far as the Germans were concerned because at that stage we’re now getting there that France had been occupied up to Paris at that stage. So there’s nothing, we didn’t have to be required to go to Italy which we were initially sent to get to know, you know, what was wrong with the Italian radar. But it was all German so it didn’t make much difference I gather. But it’s, we had to, we had to take a photo of where we’d been though. You must remember that no matter what, what jobs you did you still had to take a photo of something to prove that you’d done your trip. Which evidently at times certain blokes would get the twitch. All they’d do is go out and wander around the North Sea, drop their bomb and come back. And so then you had to take a photo of your ,where you’d been to prove that you’d done a trip.
AP: How, how would you time that as a special operator? Without a real target. You just go somewhere and say that’ll do?
RW: With the real target you’d just go and bomb him. If, in the case of the one I just mentioned. Tonsberg there. That at some stage of the game you’d go over the near target, let go of the photoflash and go home. But until, until you’d got your trip because obviously there would be a timer on your camera because we were supposed to stay there for always for the second wave to come in so they’d have to. You’d have to prove your point.
AP: So, so your tour essentially was just go flying?
RW: Go flying.
AP: In random directions.
RW: The only.
AP: And then come back.
RW: The only thing we had that, I’d say that JU88, I would think that he’d been sent. Because he was almost the same height as us, you know, just over the top of us, that I think he’d been sent to find us and he didn’t find us thank God because otherwise, it might have been a different story.
AP: So —
RW: That’s about the only excitement I can give you, Adam.
AP: It sounds like an ideal tour for someone who just wants to fly an aeroplane.
RW: The only thing is if you had to fly you’ve always got the twitch. No matter where you are you’re supposed to be, you know ready and willing and able to do evasive action. Because every time we did there because when the war finished they even sent us out to do [pause] oh God. Simulated attacks. I can’t think of the word. Affiliation. Fighter affiliation. You had to do fighter affiliation and then do corkscrews and that sort of thing. So you were always on the tip of your toes. It wasn’t relaxing flying.
AP: Of course not. What —
RW: The only part that was relaxing was the fact that the Bristol Hercs were a very reliable motor. Hardly coughed.
AP: The — you were saying before about doing aerobatics in an Anson and they toppled the gyros.
RW: Yeah.
AP: How did a corkscrew —
RW: Oh no, the Oxfords
AP: The Oxfords, sorry. Oxford. Anson.
RW: The Oxford. Yeah.
AP: They’re very similar [laughs] but how did a corkscrew affect the gyros in the Halifax?
RW: Oh the, well we didn’t go out. We didn’t. You had a certain a certain limitation on what we could do. With the gyros were of course actually in the cockpit. They were in the Sperry panel there and the gyros were set up in the thing. Whereas in the Halifax the master control was down the back end where you had the gyroscope down there which was in a cradle. And a bit like a centrifuge I suppose it would be called. But it didn’t affect them at all.
AP: Ok. So it was sort of more designed for —
RW: Because really we didn’t, you know, with all due respect to the Hali a thirty degree you very seldom would put her wing down to forty five to do it. But as long as you were giving your gunners maximum deflection that’s all you had to do. And of course when you do your corkscrew and of course up top you were a sitting beauty for any [laughs]. Anyway, but you didn’t really throw her on her back. No.
AP: Right.
RW: But the old Sperry panel, I think it was the gyros were fitted in the panel. I gather that they were. I could be wrong on that.
AP: Not a, not a technician so I don’t know. How did you, how did you cope with the, I guess the stress of these operations? Was there stress?
RW: I think there was. I think you slept well. I think you were actually six, eight hours. See the minimum you would do would be six and a half and otherwise eight. Eight hours. By the time you’d done you were tired really and you went to sleep. I think we, we only had to operate once every three days. It gave you time to recover from the stress because I think once you were where you’re going and you’re going over enemy territory no one’s very friendly to you if — whatever’s happening. There will always be flak around you. Not intensive as the target. To be truthful I’m not too sure. I think we were young and stupid. [laughs]
AP: Fair enough.
RW: I don’t think. I think it must affect people differently because up until that stage, you know, until we got to squadron it was just joyful flying. Whether you were doing a conversion on to a four engine aircraft you were still just practicing over England. But once you went over the enemy coast you really felt you, instead of relaxing you really would hang on and I presume that’s what it was. And I think as a captain of the aircraft you’re inclined to get a bit snappy with people and I think that at that stage you got on well with your crew but you very seldom complained to them about it. They crew would complain. The navigator would always complain that you weren’t flying, you know, true course that he wanted. And this and that and all the rest of it and, and of course the bomb aimer had nothing to do and he was our second nav. And they used to always be, we had the friction between the navigator and the bomb aimer in jobs to do. In other words it was a bit useless having a bomb aimer on but he had to be on there to say it was an ordinary bombing aircraft.
AP: Ok.
RW: And that bit. My navigator had, the navigator I got was a very good one. Thank God I did because as I say I had to lose the first one and, but he was always late. Once, you know you’d go to the briefings for whatever we were doing that particular night and he would always be the last one to get in, you know. He’d always be dawdling to get in to the briefing. And it used to irritate me a bit and I’d tick him off for not getting there on time. And eventually I thought I had to teach him a lesson because we were, the boss, or the flight commander said to me would I go down to Woodbridge. You know, it’s an emergency ‘drome down there. Evidently someone had left something down there and so they decided to send an aircraft down to pick it up. A table or whatever it was [laughs] but I went down to Manston to, I said, ‘I’ll go down and pick it up for you.’ So I told Derek and the gang to, you know, ‘We’ll go off about half past ten. We’ll go down to Manston. Pick up this table they want us to get.’ And of course I’m waiting there. You have to pick up your ‘chutes and all that because you were going out and Derek’s not there. So I said to Terry who was the bomb aimer/navigator, I said to Terry, I said, ‘Could you navigate me down to Manston?’ He said, ‘Oh yes.’ I said, ‘Right. We’ll go.’ So we all marched out, went out to the aircraft, picked up the aircraft less a navigator. And went down there and when I came back of course there was a furious navigator [laughs] ‘How dare you take off without me.’ I said, ‘Just to show you you’re not essential.’ But you know it’s one of those silly things. One thing that you can find that you get a bit snappy with them but the — when you’re taking off with, well you’ll probably see on those pilot’s notes where the controls are very far apart and I haven’t got a very big hand. So taking off, and with four, four Bristol Hercules all pulling in one direction your aircraft wants to weathercock and quite often you’d let two go. Let two of the throttles go and just keep going with two. And your engineer would be standing behind you and he would be watching his gauges which he was supposed to do because when you’re taking off your fuel pressure goes down. And anyway, he was supposed to carry on just when I got full bore, then he’d bring the other throttles up to me and once we were taking off and it was on this Manston trip I think that he must, the fuel pressure lights were blinking like hell because I could get a reflection from them and I thought it was trouble. And he had shot the two throttles up and locked it. Locked the throttles on, which is grip. And of course all of a sudden I started doing a mighty spin so I had to unlock it and take them back and I ticked him off for not watching what he was doing. But he was really watching the pressure gauges. But you can get a bit crusty with them I’d say. If I was under tension. I don’t know. I think so. I think probably the tension caught up with me in later life.
AP: How did your tour end?
RW: The war ended.
AP: The war ended. Oh fair enough.
RW: I only got twenty two in so had I, had I got a full trip tour to — it finished on the — the last op I did was the 25th of the April which, the war was still going, but you know, it was knocked off. And initial thing was when I said that we were only going to do forty five trips. We were going to do thirty on Halifaxes and fifteen on Mosquitoes. So the final fifteen I would have been transferred from the Halifax flight to do fifteen on the Mossies. So that, I missed out on that. So that just finished. After the war we then did [pause] it was called Operation Post Mortem where we took English radar operators over to the German side of things for them to operate the German equipment and we then put on a mock raid in daylight so that they could see the effectiveness we did. We did a mock raid with Lancasters. The whole lot. In daylight. Over to [pause] I can’t think. Gjol. A place called Gjol in Denmark. We did that as a bombing trip and it showed us, you know where the faults were in the British equipment and where the faults were in the German equipment. It was quite an interesting exercise. But after the Post Mortem then the squadron disbanded and that was it. And I came back at Christmas time.
AP: How did you then find re- adjusting to civilian life?
RW: A little bit ratty I think, then. I think I was getting stuck into the grog too at that stage in the game and I think that might have been a little bit of an indication of what it was but that was when we came back home. And as you can imagine I said I started off as an office boy in the Melbourne City Council. And it, you know it was a pretty dead sort of existence after [pause] after the flying days. And then I didn’t settle so I went off and went into insurance broking. And that was what I finished the rest of my days as. I only flew once. In 1953 they called us up on the reserve to train as instructors and we’re back at Moorabbin on Tigers. So I got some flying in again. But I tell you what. I wasn’t the brave boy I was at Benalla. When, you know — I think we had to finish, at Benalla we had to finish our aerobatics by three thousand feet and I’d get to three thousand feet — too bloody cold. This’ll be fine. Another thousand [laughs]
AP: That’s —
RW: So there it is. It caught up with me eventually. That’s about it I think unfortunately.
AP: So how [pause] my last question then.
RW: Yes.
AP: How is Bomber Command remembered? What’s its legacy? I mean, how do you want to see it remembered more importantly?
RW: I think what you’re doing now is ideal because being an odd bod which was the only thing left for us originally when we came back in so far as the Air Force Association which we, you know, we kept up straightaway through ourselves and odd bods there, But I think what you’re doing at the moment is something peculiar, special –not peculiar. Special to Bomber Command and the Bomber Command boys and seeing you’re part of their group then that’s the place I find it’s more comforting. And I think that now we’ve started to take it there I think quite a few bomber boys including myself were very disappointed with the RAF not giving us the bar for the odd bods. For the area we did. And eventually John [Frayne?] and Laurie — I think we both complained to John [Frayne] that nothing was done to remember Bomber Command and I don’t think we actually had a day declared which now is taken as been either the 30th of June or the 1st of July. I take it. Would that be right?
AP: As in the one we’ve just done?
RW: Yeah.
AP: So it’s yeah. The first Sunday in June is the day.
RW: 1st Sunday in June.
AP: Yeah.
RW: I had an idea it was either going to be the 30th no, the first Sunday in June.
AP: The first Sunday in June.
RW: Now, that’s, that is ideal. I think it’s just what we need there. Because Anzac Day really doesn’t mean as much to us and now that we are just going to travel in a motor car I don’t find is it’s like a parade really. But I think what we did yesterday was worthwhile and just feel that though yesterday was unlucky that the weather didn’t give us much chance to talk. Plus that bloke pinched my umbrella [laughs] so if it’s raining there you’ll have to blame whoever it was. I don’t say pinched but he obviously took it by mistake. No. That was I think full marks to Jan Dimmock and the rest of you good folk on the committee now as I know. I thought you were doing it by yourself at one stage of the game.
AP: Not quite. We’ve got some good help.
RW: No. But you did a sterling job but you were battling by yourself for quite a while weren’t you?
AP: I wasn’t. There was, it was Jan and Ed Robbin set up the first one.
RW: Yes.
AP: I came on board about three years ago.
RW: Did you. That was round about the same time as —
AP: So I’ve been involved with about three now.
RW: I took an interest in Bomber Command then.
AP: It’s been, personally I moved to Melbourne about five and a half years ago so.
RW: And you came down from Sydney?
AP: I did.
RW: Three years ago did you Adam?
AP: A bit more than that but I so my background is Sydney. So I was in Canberra on Saturday night.
RW: Yes.
AP: At that gathering.
RW: At the gathering.
AP: And then came down early for our one on Sunday.
RW: Are they in each state?
AP: Not quite on the same day.
RW: No.
AP: There’s a few different days around the place.
RW: Ok.
AP: But yes. Except for the Northern Territory each capital city has a ceremony.
RW: I was just going to say yesterday we didn’t realised that there was that RSL thing was on at the shrine as well.
AP: Yeah. Yeah.
RW: Has that affected our attendance?
AP: I think it affected some of the dignitaries.
RW: Did it? Oh yes. Because there was quite a few apologies.
AP: Yeah. I think it kept their numbers down a little bit.
RW: A little bit.
AP: Yeah. And it meant that we had to sort of rush through a bit and get out quite quickly afterwards but —
RW: Was that, were they before you?
AP: They were after. They were at 4 o’clock.
RW: I wasn’t aware of that.
AP: Yeah. Neither were we when we booked it.
RW: Serve them right.
AP: Yeah. Oh well. But yeah it all, It worked out quite nicely. We’re looking forward to the next one.
RW: Yeah. Looking forward to the next year. That’s good. And thanks Adam.
AP: Any final words before I turn the tape off.
RW: No. Just to wish you well and whether you find as I say I have no memorabilia that I can really give you that is of value because a little thing that actually happened there. When I was getting commissioned I had a month off or something. They did all the commissioning in the UK. And I was down — staying down in London whilst I was getting measured for my uniform I think. Something like that. And I had a bike, a kit bag and a suitcase, and I was going to Earl’s Court which was where we stayed overnight on leave. And whilst I was booking in I had three things to get inside. So I left my suitcase, took my bike and kitbag in and someone pinched my suitcase from outside. And in it was all the, all the papers. Quite a lot of bombing atlases and maps I had there but someone pinched it and eventually when I got back I found out that he got six months for pinching it. But did I have this Halifax book there.
AP: Yeah. I think it’s in this pile.
RW: Halifax. There was just something to read. That’s something that you don’t really see. We used to call them H sheets. That was [laughs] there was my perfect landing. I had to keep it [laughs]. The little bit down below.
AP: That’s commission of — yeah. Very nice. Perfect single engine landing. You’re, you’re not the only veteran who has told me flying a Wellington and something —
RW: Goes wrong.
AP: Engines stops or something like that. You’re about the eighth.
RW: Eighth. Really?
AP: It happens a lot.
RW: Mind you the poor old things were clapped out.
AP: Yeah. Of course they were.
RW: The very thing that happened with that there — the Halifax that I ended, the Wellington that I changed over to and took the one that the engine broke down — the reason why it made such a fuss is that ten days later that Wimpy was out on a cross-country in daylight because that was at night time, but daylight, and it went in. Killed the lot of them. And it sort of brought it to light the fact that that particular one because it played up with me because I had a fire and the engine and the throttle, actually it was the throttle connection that vibrated out so it must have been vibrating terribly to ruin it within ten days from being —
AP: It happened again.
RW: Previously being done.
AP: Yeah.
RW: So it was a bit of a shame.
AP: Yeah. Who was the last bloke? Someone told me a very similar story as well. How they flew. And it was a Wellington and it had a problem and then a couple of days later someone else flew it and in they went.
RW: Well, that was it. You just couldn’t.
AP: Yeah.
RW: You know, you can’t, you couldn’t tell and that happened and that’s happened when you finally got there. You said what did I think of the Halifax because all of a sudden I’m not flying a 2 or 5 at Con Unit but I’m flying a brand new 3.
AP: Yeah. Like me driving a brand new car.
RW: Yes there you are. That’s right. Everything’s right. But thanks very much.
AP: No worries. I shall turn this off.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWhiteRR160607
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ralph White
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:09:52 audio recording
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Purcell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-07
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph White grew up in Melbourne, Australia and originally joined the army. He later volunteered to become aircrew and undertook initial pilot training at Benella and Mallala in Australia before sailing to the UK via San Francisco and New York. He flew operations with 192 Squadron from RAF Foulsham and recounts and attack by a Ju 88. After the war he took part in Operation Post Mortem. English operators went to Germany to test their equipment while his squadron mounted a mock operation. This was to see how effective the British and German technology had been.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Germany
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
New York (State)--New York
Victoria--Melbourne
Victoria
New York (State)
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
192 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
crewing up
Halifax
Ju 88
pilot
radar
RAF Foulsham
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1918/45594/YCrawfordJ[Ser -DoB]v1.pdf
7a96a93f820e668840dc899996c68726
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crawford, Jack 416818
John Crawford
J Crawford
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Crawford, J
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer John "Jack" Crawford (416818 Royal New Zealand Air Force) and contains his diaries, documents, correspondence and photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator/ air gunner with 189 Squadron and was killed 4 March 1945. <br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by john Herbert and catalogued by Lynn Corrigan.<br /><br /><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW220471175 BCX0">Additional information on John "Jack" Crawford</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW220471175 BCX0"> is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/105207/">IBCC Losses Database.</a></span>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jack Crawford's trip book
My trip book
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John 'Jack' Crawford
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Diary
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
YCrawfordJ[Ser#-DoB]v10001
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-06-11
1942-06-20
1942-06-22
1942-07-14
1942-07-21
1943-03-06
1943-04-02
1943-05-03
1943-12-16
1944-08-30
1944-08-31
1944-09-10
1944-09-11
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-17
1944-09-27
1944-09-28
1944-10-05
1944-10-06
1944-10-07
1944-10-11
1944-10-17
1944-10-18
1944-10-19
1944-10-20
1944-10-23
1944-11-11
1944-11-12
1944-11-22
1944-11-23
1944-11-26
1944-11-27
1944-12-04
1944-12-05
1944-12-10
1944-12-11
1944-12-31
1945-01-03
1945-01-04
1945-01-05
1945-01-07
1945-01-08
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-02-17
1945-03-01
1945-03-02
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Belgium
Belgium--Houffalize
Canada
Alberta
Alberta--Calgary
Alberta--Edmonton
British Columbia
British Columbia--Vancouver
Manitoba
Manitoba--Winnipeg
Nova Scotia
Nova Scotia--Halifax
Ontario
Ontario--Ottawa
Québec
Québec--Montréal
Saskatchewan
Czech Republic
Czech Republic--Most
France
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Le Havre
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Braunschweig
Germany--Darmstadt
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Heilbronn
Germany--Hörstel
Germany--Kaiserslautern
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Siegen
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Staffordshire
Netherlands
Netherlands--Vlissingen
Norway
Norway--Trondheim
Panama
Panama--Panama Canal
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)--Kaliningrad (Kaliningradskai︠a︡ oblastʹ)
United States
Illinois
Illinois--Chicago
New York (State)
New York (State)--New York
Description
An account of the resource
Covering the period 3 December 1941 to 1945 it details Jack's initial training, sailing from New Zealand to Canada and subsequent train journey, visiting a fox farm, canoeing, taking exams and getting the results and trips in the snow. Qualifying as a wireless operator and travel to Britain on the RMS Mauretania, the continuation of training, posting to 50 Squadron and marriage to Edna. Provides details of 28 operations to Belgium, Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway and Russia including Houffalize, Brux, Boulogne, Le Havre, Bremen, Brunswick, Dortmund-Ems canal, Darmstadt, Gravenholst, Harburg oil refinery, Heilbronn, Kaiserslautern, Karlsruhe, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, Wilhelmshaven, Flushing, Trondheim and Koningsberg. It includes a leave pass, berthing card, travel map, sketches, photograph and other memorabilia.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
50 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bombing
Catalina
ground personnel
Initial Training Wing
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
love and romance
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
RAF Barford St John
RAF Coningsby
RAF Scampton
RAF Sutton Bridge
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1539/29122/PAllnuttFJ1626.1.jpg
6391bb4e599fc4148cb493f5f4e5e3a4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allnutt, Frank John
F J Allnutt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allnutt, FJ
Description
An account of the resource
32 items. The collection concerns Frank Allnutt (436745 Royal Australian Air Force) and contains his log book and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frank Allnutt and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Allnutt in New York
Description
An account of the resource
John with others walking down a street in New York.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PAllnuttFJ1626
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1539/29139/PAllnuttFJ1608.1.jpg
90745b171b2bc5a0f7fda0c18b5bf161
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1539/29139/PAllnuttFJ1609.1.jpg
6b6f8c1c83eb13833488e5b781357c26
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allnutt, Frank John
F J Allnutt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allnutt, FJ
Description
An account of the resource
32 items. The collection concerns Frank Allnutt (436745 Royal Australian Air Force) and contains his log book and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frank Allnutt and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Allnutt in New York
Description
An account of the resource
Two photographs showing John (has a bandaged face) with others when they were in New York in transit from Australia to UK.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PAllnuttFJ1608, PAllnuttFJ1609
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/711/17262/PBlairJJ1617.1.jpg
316e9168c7d006fcd17289645e04a946
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Blair, John
John Jericho Blair
J J Blair
Description
An account of the resource
38 items. The collection concerns John Jericho Blair DFC (1919-2004). He was born in Jamaica and served in RAF from 1942-1963. He flew a tour of operations as a navigator with 102 Squadron from RAF Pocklington. The collection includes numerous photographs of him and colleagues, several photographs of Jamaica, a document detailing his life and an interview with his great nephew Mark Johnson.
The collection also contains three interviews with Caribbean veterans including John Blair recorded by Mark Johnson.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Mark Johnson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Blair, JJ
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Blair and Leo Balderamos
Description
An account of the resource
John Blair standing with Leo Balderamos on a tall building with a cityscape in the background.
Caption: 'John Blair (left) and Leo Balderamos of Belize on the Empire State Building, New York, in October 1942'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBlairJJ1617
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
United States
New York (State)
New York (State)--New York
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-10
African heritage
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1509/34606/BTunaleyJNettletonJDv1.1.pdf
54e050f05dcfba0e9e1dead4ea7651e5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Nettleton, John Dering
J D Nettleton
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Nettleton, JD
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Seven items. The collection concerns John Nettleton VC (1917 - 1943. Royal Air Force) and contains photographs and a biography including descriptions of the Augsburg operation. He flew operations as a pilot with 44 Squadron. <br /><br />Additional information on John Nettleton is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/117147/">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by J Tunaley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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John Dering Nettleton, VC (28 June 1917-13 July 1943)
Date of Birth: 28 June, 1917
Place of birth: Nongoma, Natal Province, South Africa
Early Life:
John Nettleton was the grandson of Admiral A T D Nettleton, Paymaster-in-Chief of the Royal Navy. He was educated at Stanbury's private school in Cape Town, and wishing to follow the family tradition, attempted to gain entrance to RN College Dartmouth. However, he failed to pass the entrance exam. Consequently, in 1930 he joined the famous South African training ship "General Botha" as a cadet at age 13 yrs, from where he graduated three years later, becoming Third Officer on MS Mattawin, one of the ships of the Elder-Dempster Line. After serving for 18 months, he returned to Cape Town and took up a civil engineering apprenticeship. He worked in various parts of South Africa, all the while remaining a member of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve (RNVR).
RAF Career:
During a visit with his mother to England, seeking a more fulfilling career, he decided to join the RAF, which he did on 6 October 1938 (aged 21). After elementary pilot training he was accepted as a short service commissioned officer, beginning his flying career in Reading. He was commissioned in December 1938 and graduated as a pilot on 22 July 1939.
His first posting was to 207 Squadron at Cottesmore to fly the Fairey Battle. He then transferred to Handley Page Hampdens on 185 Squadron, also at Cottesmore. He was promoted to Flying Officer in July 1940 and to Flight Lieutenant in February 1941. Four months later, on 26 June 1941, Nettleton joined 44 (Rhodesia) Squadron, at RAF Waddington, again flying Hampdens – his first operational posting, which involved him flying several sorties over Europe. Just a month later he was promoted to Squadron Leader and was Mentioned in Despatches in December 1941.
On Christmas Eve, 1941, the first Lancaster Bombers to reach an operational unit arrived at Waddington and John Nettleton led the first raid on 3 March 1942 – a mining drop in the Heligoland Bight. The Augsburg Raid, for which he was awarded his Victoria Cross, took place on 17 April 1942 (see details below)
John met his wife, Betty Isabel Hevelock, during a visit to London five weeks after the Augsburg Raid (May 1942). Betty was originally from Paignton in Devon and was a WAAF. Just one week later, on 1 June, 1942, they were engaged. Shortly afterwards, he was sent on a goodwill tour to America, with 14 other war heroes. This took in visits to 21 American cities and included a ticker-tape parade along Broadway in New York, as well as a dinner in Hollywood with 15 film actresses. He returned to the UK and almost immediately married Betty in Lincoln on 17 July.
On 1 November, Nettleton attended the investiture at Buckingham Palace and received his Victoria Cross from HM The King. He refused to be grounded or become an instructor, so was promoted to Wing Commander and, in early 1943, returned to operations as the
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Commanding Officer of 44 Squadron, who were by now based at Dunholme Lodge, just five miles north of Lincoln.
In the weeks to follow, he led the Squadron on two major raids, one on Berlin and the other on the U-boat pens at Lorient.
John Nettleton was killed on the night of 12/13 July 1943 (aged just 26), during a heavy raid on Turin in Italy. The Sicilian invasion had begun two days earlier and it was imperative that German reinforcments [sic] were prevented from being brought through to Turin and Milan. His Lancaster KM-Z ED331 took off from Dunholme Lodge in Lincolnshire and, having successfully attacked Turin, was believed to have been shot down by a night-fighter off the Brest peninsular on his way home. His body and those of his crew were never recovered. All are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.
John Nettleton's death was officially announced on 23 February, 1944, just four days after the birth of his son, also named John, was announced. [John Dering Nettleton junior is still alive and himself has a son, (James I think but not absolutely certain)].
Memorial
RAF Dunholme Lodge ceased to be an operational station at the end of World War 2. Part of the airfield and buildings were purchased by The Reverend William Farr to establish a secondary school, and this was opened in 1952.
On 4 November 2010, a memorial to John Nettleton VC was dedicated in the William Farr School. The Headmaster, Paul Strong (himself the great grandson of a VC winner), even managed to arrange for a Lancaster from the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight to pass over the school to mark the occasin. [sic] Subsequently, the Victoria Cross Society added its own contribution to the school's memorial room, presenting a framed Victoria Cross display, dedicated to John Nettleton VC.
In addition, John Nettleton and his crew of seven on the Turin raid are commemorated on the Air Forces Memorial at Runnymede. (The memorial's panels contain the names of more than 20,000 air force personnel who died during the Second World War and have no known grave. They served in Bomber, Fighter, Coastal, Transport, Flying Training and Maintenance Commands, and came from all parts of the Commonwealth. Slome [sic] were from countries in continental Europe which had been overrun but whose airmen continued to fight in the ranks of the Royal Air Force.)
There is also a painting of the Augsburg Raid, commissioned by the Sergeant' Mess at RAF Waddington, where it now hangs, and executed by Gordon Sage. The artist consulted with Bert Dowty, a front gunner on the raid (part of WO Crum's crew in T-Tommy) and Pat Dorehill (Nettleton's crew), on the details he portrays.
Award of the Victoria Cross
John Nettleton was awarded his Victoria Cross for his leading role in the Augsburg Raid on the MAN factory near Munich. His VC was gazetted on 24 April 1942, less than a week after his return from the raid, as follows:
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"Squadron Leader Nettleton was the leader of one of two formations of six Lancaster heavy bombers detailed to deliver a low-level attack in daylight on the Diesel engine factory at Augsburg, in Southern Germany, on the 17 April 1942. The enterprise was daring, the target of high military importance. To reach it and get back, some 1000 miles had to be flown over hostile territory. Soon after crossing into enemy territory his formation was attacked by 25 to 30 fighters. A running fight ensued. His rear guns went out of action. One by one the aircraft of his formation were shot down until in the end only his own and one other remained. The fighters were shaken off but the target was still far distant. There was formidable resistance to be faced. With great spirit and almost defenceless, he held his two remaining aircraft on their perilous course, and after a long and arduous flight, mostly at only 50 ft. above the ground, he brought them to Augsburg. Here anti-aircraft fire of great intensity and accuracy was encountered. The two aircraft came low over the roof tops. Though fired at from point blank range, they stayed the course to drop their bombs true on the target. The second aircraft, hit by flak burst into flames and crash-landed. The leading aircraft, though riddled with holes, flew safely back to base, the only one of the six to return. Squadron-Leader Nettleton, who has successfully undertaken many other hazardous operations, displayed unflinching determination as well as leadership and valour of the highest order."
Nettleton's Mother, upon hearing of her son's endeavours and his award of the VC, apparently expressed a mother's anxiety when she related that although thrilled, she hoped her son would not be sent on "too many of these dangerous exploits after this", and although proud, was also "thankful" for his safe return.
The Augsburg Raid – 17 April 1942
In April, a daylight bombing mission was planned by RAF Bomber Command against the MAN diesel engine factory at Augsburg (near Munich) in Bavaria. With the increasing Allied losses being suffered in the Battle of the Atlantic, this factory, which was responsible for the production of half of Germany's U-boat engines, was rated as one of the most important targets in Germany. The mission was to be the longest low level penetration so far made during World War II, and it was the first daylight mission flown by the new Avro Lancaster.
Unfortunately, radar aids which facilitate precision bombing at night were not yet available and past performance precluded any likelihood of such an operation being successful without them. For this reason the raid was to take place in daylight. In addition, long-range escort fighters did not exist at that time, therefore, the force had to carry out the raid unsupported.
The operation, involving a round trip of some 1250 miles, mostly over enemy territory, was among the most audacious undertaken to date by Bomber Command. From the point of view of precision, in both bombing and navigation, it was certainly one of the most ambitious. For a week prior to the attack, the selected crews were withdrawn from operations to practise formation flying at low level, including flights over the hills in Scotland. The greatest secrecy was maintained and the crews themselves were not told of the target until briefed just hours before take off on the day of the raid. The whole operation was planned very carefully and, since the crews had to be able to identify a single shed in the middle of the complex factory, they studied photographs and pencil sketches.
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Twelve Lancasters, in two sections of six, from each of Nos 44 and 97 Squadrons were to fly the outbound leg at the lowest possible level. The attack was also to be made at low level, using 1000 lb general purpose high explosive bombs, fused with a delayed action of eleven seconds.
The return flight, most of which would be at night, was to be made individually at a more customary altitude. The low level approach was intended to delay the appearance of the aircraft on enemy radar screens and, in the event of interception, to make the task of the German fighters more difficult. It was also considered the best defence against Flak. A large scale diversion, in the form of raids in the Pas de Calais area by 30 Bostons with fighter escorts, was also arranged.
The mission was scheduled for 17 April 1942, to be led by Squadron Leader Nettleton, flying Lancaster Mk 1, R5508, coded "KM-B". Briefing took place at [12 noon] and at [15.00]
Nettleton took off from Waddington with the first vic, followed by Flt Lt R Sandford leading the second.
The second section of six No 97 Sqn aircraft took off from Woodhall Spa. Sqn Ldr J S Sherwood led the first vic and Flt Lt D J Penman the second. At the French coast Nettleton took his section down to 20 feet. Maintaining between 20 and 30 feet, the formation kept as tight as possible as they flew wing tip to wing tip over hills and skimmed down valleys, anticipating by twenty years the tactics adopted as standard in the sixties by subsequent generations of bomber crews.
Frequently the Lancasters had to ease up to clear trees that appeared ahead. Then their flight path clipped the German fighter base at Beaumont le Roger, where Me109s and FW190s were recovering after operations against the very diversionary forces intended to draw enemy aircraft away from the Lancaster force. These fighters belonged to the II Gruppe/Jagdgeschwader 2 (Richthofen). Spotting the unescorted Lancasters, they turned towards their prey, a fighter pilot's dream!
Attacking first the rear vic, L7575 skippered by WO Beckett was subjected to a hail of fire from Hauptman Heine Greisert. Within seconds it was transformed into a mass of roaring flames and then dived into a clump of trees. Feldwebel Bosseckert tackled Flt Lt Nick Sandford, setting fire to all four engines before his R5506 hit the ground and exploded in a fireball. Then the pack turned on WO Crum, and L7548 was subjected to numerous attacks from a number of directions in the course of which the interior became a nightmare of ricocheting bullets. Both rear and mid upper gunners called out that they had been hit, and a fire started in the port wing. To climb would have been fatal and Crum ordered the bomb load to be jettisoned safe while he prepared to force land on any open ground that presented itself. Such a manoeuvre had been foreseen and discussed during the preparation for the raid. Now Crum and his crew were to benefit from his thorough preparation, for they all survived the subsequent arrival. Their assailant had been Unteroffizier Pohl, flying Me109 "Black 7", and his victory was recorded in the Jagdgeschwader's "Game" book as their 1,000th "Luftsieg" of the war.
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Having disposed of the rear vic, the German fighters turned on Nettleton's formation. Major Oesau and his wing man, Oberfeldwebel Edelmann, commenced firing and closed to within 10 metres of WO Rhodes. Both port engines erupted into flames followed quickly by the starboard motors. L7536 reared up abruptly, stalled and plunged vertically straight down, missing its compatriots by inches. They, too, had suffered. The engagement had lasted barely 15 minutes yet fortunately, at this point, the fighters broke away, presumably to refuel and re-arm.
Nettleton flew on, together with the remaining survivor, Flt Lt Garwell. Fortunately, they met no further opposition until they reached Augsburg. To men more accustomed to flying at great heights in darkness, this flight seemed full of incident. Horses and cattle in fields scattered in front of them and two Germans out riding had their horses bolt as the Lancasters roared overhead!
At Lake Constance, Nettleton circled before running in for a timed attack. Augsburg was hidden behind a hill at this stage and did not come into view until he was clear of the crest. From there it was straight ahead.
The two bombers crossed the Munich-Augsburg railway at Mering and had originally intended to fly directly to the target. However, since the presence of many tall factory chimneys would have forced them to climb, they chose instead to follow the river Lech and then turned in to attack the target from the east.
The factory showed up as predicted in the pre-flight brief, where a canal forks from a river. Light flak came up and, because they were so low, the German gunners frequently shot into their own buildings. There were a large number of quick-firing guns and the bursting shells made holes in both the Lancasters. Their target – the engine shed – appeared on the nose and Nettleton rose slightly as he released his four 1000lb bombs. He then commenced evasive action.
Garwell then attacked, but was almost immediately hit and burst into flames. Nettleton saw him turn and carry out a forced landing about two miles from Augsburg. The rear gunner, Sgt Huntley, saw their bombs explode, throwing whole sections of building into the air. As Nettleton turned for home, light was just beginning to fail. He remained at low level and waited until it was quite dark before climbing.
Sherwood's formation arrived just as the previous two aircraft attacked. They, too, flew in against a heavy and well-concentrated fire. One rear gunner retaliated successfully and shot a German counterpart off the roof of a building. Three miles from the target, WO Mycock's aircraft was hit in the front turret. The hydraulic oil caught fire and the aircraft fell in a mass of flames.
Sherwood then bombed but was also hit and set on fire. He was last seen 10 miles from Augsburg, burning on the ground. Flt Lt Deverill was also hit and a fire started in the fuselage. Fortunately, this was extinguished just as the aircraft came to the release point and he was able to bring his aircraft home.
Nettleton finally landed near Blackpool and returned to RAF Waddington with his crew by train.
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Of the total force of 12 aircraft, eight had bombed the target but only five returned home. All of these had been severely damaged. However, their target, the main diesel shop, was severely damaged by direct hits and a subsequent fire. It was believed that the production of diesel engines was severely delayed.
HM The King, approved the following awards for gallantry to members of the Nettleton crew and, in addition, Flt Lt Nick Sandford, who was reported missing during the Augsburg raid, was also awarded the DFC.
Sqn Ldr J D Nettleton – Victoria Cross
Ft Lt L S McCure – Distinguished Flying Cross
Plt Off D O Sands – Distinguished Flying Cross
Pt Off P Dorehill – Distinguished Flying Cross
Sgt C F Churchill – Distinguished Flying Medal
Sgt D N Huntley – Distinguished Flying Medal
Flt Sgt P H Harrison – Distinguished Flying Medal
Ft Sgt L Mutter – Distinguished Flying Medal
Other than Nettleton himself, three other members of his crew, (McClure, Huntley and Mutter) were later lost on operations with 44 Squadron. Of the remaining four, Charlie Churchill later became a POW, Pat (Patrick) Dorehill finished the current and a subsequent tour with the Squadron while Frank Harrison also survived a further tour, in this instance with No 97 Squadron.
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First hand accounts by surviving crew members:
Sgt C Churchill (Wireless Operator, Sqn Ldr Nettleton's crew): Nettleton opened by saying that, unlike a normal briefing, at the end of this one there wouldn't be the ritual "Any questions?" We were to listen attentively and then keep quiet. We, who represented the most experienced crews on the Squadron, were temporarily withdrawn from operations. We were to undertake special training in the course of which we would develop techniques for flying in daylight in close formation, not only at high speed but also at very low level! It sounded very exciting and, as he warned us, very dangerous. We were told to say absolutely nothing about the flying we were doing. "Think what you will", said Nettleton, "but keep your mouth shut".
Of course, this opened the gates to speculation, hasty types saw us as the beginning of a new formation like the later Pathfinders. More speculative observers considered we were to reduce enemy defences prior to the invasion of France. The 'couldn't care less' types only saw it as a reprieve from Ops so they could whoop it up more regularly in Lincoln.
We started with the loose formation over the sea, which gradually got tighter and lower. Finally, we were flying with our wing tips overlapping just over the sea. Then we moved to flights over land, to sorties over Scotland. It was exhilarating, flying down the valleys, scattering sheep in the process. Now and again we flew alongside trains and, much to the amazement of the passengers, even below them where the tracks ran along an embankment.
On 17 April it was on. In the manner of all aircrew, as soon as we entered the briefing room we scanned the wall map to determine the "Target for Tonight". This one was different and that's the understatement of the year. That morning will live in my memory when all else has faded. The course drawn on the map went across one wall and well into that on the adjoining one. I thought I was dreaming. This I cannot believe, I thought, it takes us to Bavaria!
Also present were some very high ranking officers which, with everything else, made the briefing a very solemn affair. One of them opened proceedings observing that this was the biggest attempt to date made by the Lanc. (How right you are, I thought.) Do not be overawed by the distance to your objective, the position is this. The allies are being brought to their knees by efficient German submarine packs which operate in the Atlantic. Our convoys are being massacred and we are losing this battle. The situation is now critical. We in the RAF have been tasked with striking a major blow in an attempt to break, if only for a short time, a very efficient and formidable foe. He went on to explain at length that, if we could successfully bomb and neutralise our target, the M.A.N. Diesel Factory at Augsburg, the supply of diesels to more than half the submarine fleet would be interrupted, thus dealing a heavy blow to the enemy's war effort. The Lancaster was the only aircraft in Bomber Command that could strike a target some 1,000 miles inside enemy territory in daylight and stand a fighting chance of survival.
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This made us feel a little easier. Nevertheless, I could not see us getting away with it. Bomb the target, yes, I thought but to get back afterwards, ha! This I cannot visualise.
We were to f1y [sic] in two vics of three and were also to be followed by six more kites from 97 Sqn based at Woodhall Spa.
Seven very serious crews returned to their quarters to make preparations. I wrote some letters and had a meal, then I tried to take a nap, but was far too tense to think of anything other than the impending operation.
At 1500 hrs. six Lancasters with their 1,000lb bombs and laden to capacity with fuel, left Waddington. As we coasted out we went right down to sea level to avoid detection by the enemy radar. I can recall our slipstream ruffling the water as we flashed along. Overland, crossing the patchwork of fields, people waved sheets and suchlike and we all had a good laugh at the sight of a group of Germans on horseback scattering in all directions.
As we passed over some wooded country, some flak opened up and I could see lines of tracer peppering two of our kites. In the process, we presumed that they put paid to Beckett's rear turret for it was to remain silent throughout the action that we were shortly to encounter. Overall, we were lucky to escape from such an engagement so lightly. We were at the peak of our alertness and, reminiscent of our training in Scotland, we flew alongside a train passing along an embankment. We could see straight through the windows. There were no passengers to be seen, presumably they were all lying on the floor, even the engine seemed to be driving itself. Our gunners, Frank Harrison mid upper, Buzzer Huntley front and Len Mutter in the rear, all asked to rake the train, but Nettleton would not hear of this and told them to hold their fire until we were either intercepted or at the target. How wise he was!
We thundered over France but, unknown to us, overhead were two fighter squadrons returning to their base near Evereux. Beckett spotted some 30 or so and called over the RT, "109s 11 o'clock high". Nettleton tersely told the formation to close up and use concentrated gunfire. At this height there was no question of evading. The Messerschmitts subjected us to severe fire and came so close during their break away that I could clearly see the pilots' faces behind their oxygen masks. One aircraft sported a distinctive yellow spinner. When I reported this during my post flight debrief, I was subsequently told that this sighting had identified the location of a unit that had been withdrawn from the Middle East.
In the running battle that followed, we were sitting ducks for such a force of fighters. WO Beckett was the first casualty; almost at once he was ablaze and disintegrating. There was no chance of any survivors as he hit the deck. WO Crum was next. Later, I found out that, amazingly, he had managed to pancake successfully and all his crew survived.
Nick Sandford, leader of the rear vic, was now alone and no match for the three 109s that harried him. He flew low with his damaged Lanc but to no avail. I believe that a wing
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touched the ground and that was it. I saw the undercarriage wheels bouncing through the flames, again surely no survivors.
Then the aircraft on our starboard side took a fatal hit. It reared up poised [sic] for a second and then turned on her back and dived to the ground. No hope for Dusty Rhodes and his crew. Four gone and only two of us left. Jerry came in for another attack and gave both of us a battering. Garwell's wing tip was flapping like a bird's wing, but we pressed on. We summed up. We were still less than half way to the target but we were going on and for two more hours on we went.
Suddenly, we were there, Augsburg. There was the factory alongside the river as briefed. Then it all started as the flak began pumping shells up at us. Buzzer Huntley, in the front turret, shouted excitedly that he had scored a direct hit on a flak position. Shortly afterwards McClure, the bomb aimer, placed his bombs plumb on the factory roof. Ginger Garwell was in close attendance. The fuse delays of 11 sec. enabled us to see our bombs explode. Then Ginger collected another shell just about midships and it was curtains for him. He pulled back his window and gave us an inverted V sign and then pancaked.
We turned for home and, thank the Lord, saw no more flak or fighters, just a few searchlights. After we seemed to have been airborne for hours I heard Nettleton say to Des Sands, the Navigator, that we should have spotted the coast of France long ago. "I am going to call for assistance despite the radio silence". He then spoke to me and said, "Radio Operator, call base and get a fix". I asked if I could use the top priority SOS, to which he replied "Use what you like but get me a course for home". This was my moment. I tapped it out, SOS.... SOS.. followed by our special callsign V, followed by our aircraft call sign and a request in code for a fix and homing. All radio traffic seemed to stop and there was only a gentle mush in my earphones. Then, suddenly, it was broken by the most beautiful resonant morse I have ever heard. First we received instructions to turn through 90 degrees and then K. This meant carry on, maintain contact and don't lose me, as if I would! Eventually, we were brought to Squires Gate, Blackpool, where we landed with our tanks all but dry. I tapped out X496, which meant, 'We have landed'. This was acknowledged, AR, followed by the unofficial GBY – God Bless You. From then on we were famous.
Sgt F Harrison (Mid Upper Gunner, Sqn Ldr Nettleton):
On 13 April, we carried out a short daylight formation sortie. After two more such trips, there followed on 15th a cross country of 5hrs 20min duration. Two days later, we went to Augsburg. This was my first bomber Op. My one undying memory of the briefing is of a Rhodesian WAG who spent the time reading a novel! When I mentioned it, he replied that this was his last opportunity to finish it. He was wrong, although his chance to finish his book was delayed by a number of years. By that evening he was a POW!
On the raid, we flew in two vics of three. Nettleton led with Garwell to port and Rhodes to starboard. The second vic tucked in close behind. I never saw the No. 97 Sqn contingent. All went well until shortly after crossing the French coast. Then I saw a mass of German fighters manoeuvering [sic] and diving down onto our tails. Len Mutter, in the rear turret, and I fired like mad throughout the entire engagement as the fighters, one after another, came
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up behind us and then broke off to port. They were only within range of my 303s for a short time, whereas they seemed able to fire at us throughout their pass until they broke away.
The rear vic was shot down almost immediately. Then Rhodes was hit in the port wing and it began to drop, which would have meant curtains for us. He levelled momentaril1y and seconds later hit the deck. A wheel bounded out of the inferno and seemed to chase after us. The end of the action saw but two of us remaining. Only one of my twin Brownings was operating and only one of Len's four.
All went well until the target, where we carried out a successful attack at low level as briefed. The brisk light AA claimed Garwell and, alone, we headed for home. As the light failed we were able to climb but, with the heavy broken cloud, it became apparent that we were very lost. At a late stage a beacon was spotted. Des Sands consulted his flimsies and concluded the code letters indicated either Hurn or Squires Gate. The Skipper plumped for Squires Gate, used their call sign on RT and asked for permission to land which, after 9 hrs 45 min, we did with much relief.
Squires Gate kindly accommodated us for the night and then, next day, Nettleton asked us whether we wanted to fly home or go by train. We went by train. I, for one, had been amazed when undressing, to find my underwear as clean as it had been that morning.
Later the crew was scheduled to tour the USA on a propaganda trip, for which I was allocated a new uniform. Apparently objections were raised over an exclusive No 5 Group Bomber 'Do' so only Nettleton and Buzzer Huntley eventually went, accompanied by bods drawn from other Commands.
WO Crum (pilot): The long training trip with six of us in formation at nought feet had been a very enjoyable affair. We had left our base at Waddington, flown south to Selsey Bill, done a smart about turn and proceeded to the North of Scotland, done another about turn and, finally, did a shoot up of the hangars at Waddington. We had all suspected that this was a prelude to something more sinister, and so it was, for the subsequent briefing revealed that our target was to be the MAN diesel engine factory at Augsburg. Thus, it all tied in, for we were to travel the whole distance in formation and at low level, and the target was to be this particular factory, to deny the Germans getting engines for their convoy sinking submarines. To carry out the intentions, we each carried 1,000 lb bombs and our full complement of 2100 gallons of petrol.
Recalling the day's events more than thirty years later, WO Crum was to lapse into the present tense as, mentally, he flew the trip again. Came the day, 17 April, a very nice one and, for me, a day of decision. Taking off was uneventful, as was the trip to Selsey Bill. Right there stood the Navy and one of the things we never did was to fly near them for fear of attracting their gunfire. Thus we did a quick turn which, at nought feet in a thirty ton bomber in close formation, causes one to perspire. The English Channel sped by and the French cliffs appeared. Nothing shot at us. Onwards, over their countryside we flew.
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while briefly in the distance I could see another Squadron heading for the same target as ourselves.
Then things began to happen for, suddenly, we are flying alongside a German aerodrome where fighters are taking off to intercept us. We keep very close as cannon and tracer shells from the rear pass through the formation, ricocheting off the land and hitting the sides of haystacks and houses. Some confusion seems to set in as aircraft are hit; flames from Joe Beckett and smoke from Dustv [sic] Rhodes. My own port outer becomes useless as I press even lower up one of the forest firebreaks below tree top level and under power cables. Soon my port inner goes along with part of the fuselage at my side. Shells rattle off the steel plate at the back of my seat. Because we are maintaining a fast speed and my port engines are useless, I have to keep my starboard engines racing more than I would want to. This is carrying me over to the port side of the Squadron where I have to shut off and allow myself to drift back to my own position. By doing this I am dropping behind and it must not be long before I have more attention from the fighters. This is not long in coming and, when half of my tail unit is missing, the RT goes dead and smoke starts coming from one of the dead engines. I had to make that decision that I mentioned before. The bombs have to be dropped safe, the new equipment we carry destroyed and a quick landing attempted. Everything goes to order and we finish up with a wheels up landing 20 yards from the edge of a wood.
Poor Bert Dowty, the front gunner, was trapped in his turret unable to turn it. Dick Dedman the co-pilot was still holding on beside me, John Miller in the mid upper turret had suffered a cut face and later found a spent bullet in his flying boot. As for me, I too had a cut face, while the others, Nick Birkett, Sandy Sanderson and Frank Cobb, came out of it OK. I was able to step out, for the side of the Lanc had disappeared, as had the windscreen in front of me. Nick Birkett had climbed through the top hatch expecting the wheels to be down and jumped, landing on ground much sooner than he expected. I had to take the axe and chop Bert Dowty out. It must have been an awesome sight for a lad in his teens to be attacked by a man with blood on his face wielding an axe on this, his first operational daylight trip.
The Lanc lies there bent but proud. Still on the secret list! She would be a valuable asset to the Germans. It must have been quite a sight, British aircrew standing around trying to set fire to their aircraft. With petrol flowing we were trying to light it with matches and cigarette lighters until someone attacked it with a Verey pistol and then she started to burn. As the blaze increased, so the ammunition started to explode and we departed in haste. Remembering that at least one of our aircraft had come down nearby. I decided to dash over and see what help I could render after putting the other five on their way.
It was like looking for the end of the rainbow, the clouds of smoke never seemed to get nearer while overhead, German fighters were milling around, no doubt gloating over the fallen Lancs burning below them. Then, hearing the engine noise of motor cycles and other vehicle, I abandoned my mercy mission. So, remembering the rule to put 15 miles between yourself and your aircraft, I set off to join a party of French folk working in the
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field. One of them took me to his very substandard house and changed my uniform for civvies. He gave me some food and I gratefully went on my way.
I walked into the night but, after passing a military barracks, decided not to push my luck any more and lay down in a copse for a rest. To acclimatise myself, I advanced slowly until the following night when I slept under some hay in a barn. Early next morning, I was still dozing when a woman came in with her pike, presumably to get hay for her cattle, and chose the bit covering me. Not relishing her pike, I stood up, giving her quite a fright in the process. I feigned to be Belgian. She summoned her husband and within a short time they offered me breakfast. As I was eating and conversing with them in basic French, a party of German soldiers walked in. The coincidence leaves little to the imagination.
So my trip landed me in German hands and then via Chartres, Paris, Frankfurt on Main, to Stalag Luft 3. The rest of my crew stayed free from capture until they reached the South of France. To complete the circle, one night towards the end of the war, as we were marching through a town in East Germany, I heard a voice calling "Crummy". There to greet me were four of my crew.
In the front of WO Crum's Lanc was Bert Dowty (Front Gunner): We set off with the intention of forming up over Grantham. Ahead of us in the distance I could see the 97 Sqn aircraft. Once we had coasted out at Selsey Bill, we were quite low and stayed there for the rest of the trip. We thundered across France getting an occasional excited wave from the ground when, suddenly, I was aware that we were flying across an airfield, which later I was to discover was at Beaumont Le Roger. We were the right hand aircraft of the vic, Sandford was leading, and Beckett was off to the left in the No. 3 position. We tracked along the tarmac peri track while off to my right three Jerry aircraft were in the act of landing. One was well down the runway, another just on and the third in the act of touching down. Around the perimeter were gun emplacements, similar to our Bofors, and I watched the passage of two clips of five that were loosed at us. Fortunately they did not come close to causing any discomfort.
A short time later the fighters were among us. never heard subsequent transmissions over our intercom, presumably because an early hit had caused some damage. I remember checking during a brief pause in the action to see if my jack plug had been pulled out. I would estimate that we were at this stage around 100 to 200 ft, but not so low that the fighters couldn't pass beneath us. The action was lively with the Me109s coming very close. One presented a full wing span to me as he broke below, I could clearly see into the cockpit and pick out the pilot's face and mask. Naturally I gave him a squirt in the process but to no immediate effect. I did see a couple go down in such a manner that I think it unlikely that they recovered, but I was too busy with the next phase to be able to wait and observe an impact. Then I looked across and saw that we were a little behind the formation, Joe Beckett to our left and now slightly forward was a mass of flames. He plunged into the deck.
I was still hammering away with my guns when we hit the deck ourselves. Although this was a surprise because Crummy had done such a good job that, apart from a shaking, I
[page break]
wasn't at all hurt. It was thanks to his efforts that, out of all those brought down that fateful day, ours was the only crew to survive intact. Unfortunately, because of the action, my guns were swung to the beam and I couldn't get out.
Without intercom I was, of course, completely unaware of events elsewhere in the crew. All I could think of was a full load of delays which I thought were still sitting in the bomb bay. I dismounted the gun, using it as a battering ram to smash away at the perspex windows. Suddenly an axe head appeared through the side of the fuselage to my left; Crummy was getting me out. In no time at all, I was freed. Our Lanc. rested in a wheat field belonging to the farm Bois-Normand, near the hamlet of Folleville, and some 10 km North of Conches.
A number of crews had completed the preparation but had not participated in the raid, WO Wright was one of these.
Flt Sgt Bud Gill, Rear Gunner (WO Wright): Initially we were not told anything about the raid but simply that we were to practise flying at low level or 'hedge hopping' as we called it. Although the flights were laid out in general taking place over Yorkshire and Scotland, sometimes but not always in formation, we were at liberty to do anything that would give us the feel of low level. We took great delight in attempting, and succeeding, in blowing the heads off the tulips in Lincolnshire. WO Jones came back with sheep's wool in the engine cowlings.
When we did get the message about the target, everyone was really excited. We had trained hard and earnestly, calling for skill and endurance especially from the pilots and navigators and felt that we were good at it. I was personally quite down when, through no fault or shortcoming in the crew, we were not selected for the raid. Even afterwards, when the results and casualties were known, I still felt the same. It was a very important target and it would have been a great achievement to have been part of it.
[page break]
Sources of Information:
Grateful thanks to Mr Henry Horscroft, Secretary of 44 Squadron Association, who freely provided invaluable information and most especially photographs from the Association's records.
The Journal of The Victoria Cross Society, 18th edition, March 2011, pp46-49. Ed: Brian Best BA (Hons)
Wikipedia entry for John Dering Nettleton
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dering_Nettleton)
Information regarding the Air Forces Memorial, Runnymede:
http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/runnymede.htm
Low Level Lancaster Raid on Augsberg (sic)
http://ww2today.com/17th-april-1942-low-level-lancaster-raid-on-augsberg
No 44 (Rhodesia) squadron and the Raid on Augsburg. 17 April 1942 by Ross Dix-Peek:
[missing words]
[photograph]
[page break]
Six photographs
Dublin Core
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Title
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John Nettleton VC
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A biography of John from his attempts to join the South African navy to his time in the RAF.
Spatial Coverage
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South Africa--Nongoma
South Africa--Cape Town
Great Britain
England--Reading
Germany--Augsburg
England--London
United States
New York (State)--New York
England--Paignton
England--Lincoln
Germany--Berlin
France--Lorient
Italy--Turin
Italy--Milan
France--Brest
England--Runnymede
France--Pas-de-Calais
Germany--Mering
England--Blackpool
England--Grantham
Italy
France
California
New York (State)
Germany
South Africa
England--Berkshire
England--Devon
England--Sussex
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Surrey
England--Selsey (West Sussex)
California--Los Angeles--Hollywood
France--Folleville (Somme)
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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eng
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Text. Personal research
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15 printed sheets
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BTunaleyJNettletonJDv1
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sue Smith
185 Squadron
207 Squadron
44 Squadron
5 Group
97 Squadron
anti-aircraft fire
Battle
bombing
Bombing of Augsburg (17 April 1942)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Fw 190
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
Hampden
Lancaster
Me 109
memorial
mine laying
prisoner of war
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodhall Spa
Stalag Luft 3
training
Victoria Cross
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1895/35556/SGillK1438901v10013.2.pdf
560ed9f1d59ba4257564f21bcc9c2824
Dublin Core
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Title
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Gill, Kenneth
K Gill
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gill, K
Description
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One hundred and sixty-four items plus another one hundred and fifteen in two sub-ciollections. The collection concerns Flying Officer Kenneth Gill DFC (1922 - 1945, 1438901, 155097 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents, photographs and family and other correspondence. <br />He flew operations as a navigator with 9 Squadron before starting a second tour with 617 Squadron. He was killed 21 March 1945 having completed 45 operations.<br /><br />The collection also contains two albums. <br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2114">Kenneth Gill. Album One</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2117">Kenneth Gill. Album Two</a><br /><br />Additional information on Kenneth Gill is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/108654/">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Derek Gill and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Charles Letts’s
DIARY
[page break]
Telephone Numbers
Name Number
[page break]
Memoranda from 1941
Left home July 7th for London
Left London July 26th for Leuchars.
Left Leuchars Oct. 3rd for 9 days leave.
Left home Oct. 12th for Leuchars.
Left Leuchars Oct. 17th for London
Left London Nov. 22nd. for Clyffe Pypard
Left Clyffe Pypard Dec. 13th for 14 days leave.
Became engaged Dec. 16th to my darling.
Left home Dec. 27th for Heaton Park.
[page break]
Memoranda from 1941
[printed information]
[page break]
January 1 Thursday 1942
Were issued with extra kit, vests, gym. kit, overalls, new towel & a new kitbag.
Had to mark bags with code letters etc.
Wrote letters to Vera & home.
Had bath & went to bed.
[page break]
2 Friday 1942
Had two teeth out at 12.25pm. at Bowlec Station. What a job it hurt quite a bit & bled a lot.
Hugh McCoy went with me.
Had rest of day off.
Code words altered.
[page break]
3 Saturday 1942
Gums still sore but a lot better, had mouth-wash after breakfast & had nothing to do till 1.30pm.
Pay parade at 2.15pm received £2 what for beats me.
Finished at 4pm.
Wrote letter to Betty Hughes & one to Vera.
Rang up, [indecipherable words] out & rang again & Vera was out. Spoke to Mrs. Longden.
4 Sunday
Took in kitbags not wanted on voyage.
Went with Pete to tea at Alcocks’. Good night Wish Vera could have some.
Tried to get through but couldn’t.
[page break]
5 Monday 1942
Went to pack & messed about & got embarkation cards. Seems we’re going at last. Tried to ring but couldn’t get through. Wrote V & home.
Left Byron’s at 10.30pm for Park. Had supper & stayed there till 2.30am. Marched to station & got on train at 3.00am.
Woke up at Glasgow.
[page break]
6 Tuesday 1942
Arrived at 12.0a.m. on docks at Gourock. Went aboard steamer & was taken out to troopship, not bad accomodation [sic]. Sleep in hammocks & on mess-tables.
The lads are all here.
Wrote to V & home.
Had a bit of fun getting hammocks set up right. Slept in our clothes.
[page break]
7 Wednesday 1942
Got up at 6.30a.m. not bad night.
Was given guard duty for 24hrs, 1 on & 2 off. My post on bow of ship.
Left Gourock at 2.0p.m. & had a Yank destroyer to acompany [sic] us.
Quiet night. Running down the Irish Sea.
[page break]
8 Thursday 1942
Bacon & egg for breakfast. Finished guard at 9a.m.
Ran in to Milford Haven at 2- pm.
Left at 4 pm. With 2 Yank destroyers & 1 troopship with soldiers aboard.
Heading back up Irish Sea. Ship rolling a bit.
[page break]
9 Friday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Good night
Just out of Irish Sea. P.T. on deck after lifeboat drill.
Was given job of sweeping up decks every day.
Went up on boat-deck.
Heavy seas coming up
Was sick seven times in afternoon & evening.
Decided to sleep on mess-table.
Clocks put back an hour.
[page break]
10 Saturday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Fairly good night. Was sick again before breakfast. Had a kipper & kept it down. Just has pudding at dinner-time & a [indecipherable word] Powder. Heavy seas & gale-warning. Cleared out scuppers & lashed everything down.
Sea came over lower decks & Boat rocked awful.
11 Sunday
Everything in a mess on the floor. Heavy seas still running. Chicken for dinner. Read 2 books in afternoon. Don’t feel too good. Another gale coming up.
[page break]
12 Monday 1942
Clocks back another hour.
Nearly slid off table last night. Decks had all been awash. Heavy seas again. Was sick before breakfast. Ship rolling very badly.
One destroyer gone back owing to engine trouble.
Feel O.K. just now.
Nothing interesting.
[page break]
13 Tuesday 1942
Fairly good night, but sea still rough.
Ships pitching so much that propellors [sic] come out of water.
Feel fairly well.
Nothing interesting.
[page break]
14 Wednesday 1942
Good night, although sea was very rough.
Porpoises seen on port side after dinner.
Had a talk by a Yank officer.
Ropes put on deck for holding on to.
Battened down after tea. Lower decks perpetually awash. Sea came in twice at portholes.
A few lads were knocked over by waves & soaked.
Other destroyer packed up & gone away. Troopships on our own now.
[page break]
15 Thursday 1942
Decent night, storm calmed a little, sea still very rough. Should be in on Saturday now.
Some chaps had their money changed or rather given in today.
[page break]
16 Friday 1942
Good night. Heavy sea again. Spray coming over like rain.
Seems we just missed U-boats during night.
[page break]
17 Saturday 1942
Good night. Sea a bit calmer. Much colder, it snowed in afternoon. Picked up Yank destroyer so must be getting nearer.
Nothing unusual.
18 Sunday
Fine morning, rather cold. Chicken for dinner again. Should see land tomorrow. Wrote home & Vera.
Nothing unusual.
[page break]
19 Monday 1942
Up at 6-0a.m. On deck at 7-0a.m. Very cold. No land in sight yet. Sighted land at 9.30a.m. At last the journeys ended.
Stayed on board till 9.15 p.m. then boarded train for Monkton.
Seems very strange seeing so many lights.
Sent cable to Mum, cost 3/6 but it was worth it.
[page break]
20 Tuesday 1942
Arrived at Moncton [sic] at 5-0 A.M. & trudged through snow & rain to camp. Were given billets & then had egg & tomatoes for breakfast. Had a rest on bunk till dinner.
Pay parade at 2-0p.m. received 3 dollars. Cabled to Vera.
Went round Moncton & had a banana split & then to pictures. Plenty of fruit here, everything seems very strange & lights seem unreal.
Very cold here but it’s a dry cold & not so bad really.
[page break]
21 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6-30 a.m. Breakfast & then parade for flighting.
Pay parade at 2.0p.m. & received 10 dollars (American).
Received our other kitbags then sent both kitbags by lorry to the train.
Our 1250’s came back at 9-0p.m. and then to billets & bed.
[page break]
22 Thursday 1942
Up at 4-0a.m. Breakfast at 5a
Paraded at 6-15a.m. & went down to station. Roads very slippery. Entrained at 8-0 a.m.
Grand scenery, rivers & lakes frozen over. Dinner lovely, negro waiters. Crossed to U.S.A. at 2-30p.m. Clocks put back an hour. Dinner at 6p.m. grand food. Changed trains at 8-0p.m.
Still in snow area.
No beds have to sleep on seats.
[page break]
23 Friday 1942
Woke up at New York at 5-30a.m. Ham & eggs for Breakfast Changed trains at Washington at 10-30 a.m. Very hot sun.
Grand dinner, chicken.
Country very dry & parched looking. Passed tobacco plantations & cotton fields & orange orchards.
Should be in tomorrow morning.
[page break]
24 Saturday 1942
Woke up at 4-0 a.m. at Atlanta dining cars taken off. Passed some fruit farms & tobacco fields
Population nearly all negro.
Arrived at Turner Field, Georgia about 9-0 a.m. Billets are fine. Breakfast grand food & waiters. Gave in blankets. Dinner fine. Collected kitbags, filled in forms etc. & had grand tea. Lecture on discipline etc. Went back to rooms at 7-45p.m. Lights out at 10-0p.m. Fine place here, very big & plenty of room.
25 Sunday
Up at 6-0a.m. Bacon & eggs etc for breakfast.
Were shown how to lay out our rooms. Haircut in morning. Scrumptious dinner.
P.T. at 1-30pm. to 3-30p.m. Played basket-ball.
Lecture again. Tea. At 5-0p.m. “Open Post” after tea while 21-00hrs. Went into Albany not much there. Bed at 10-30. p.m.
Very hot here, better than our summers.
[page break]
26 Monday 1942
Up at 5.45a.m. Breakfast then P.T. for an hour. Shower then lecture on system of guards. Break. Wrote to Vera & sent it by Letter Mail 5c. Drill period for an hour & a half. Very funny trying to learn American drill. It seems rather babyish to us & not half as smart.
Wash & Brush up then dinner.
Parcelled up laundry ready for collecting. Started writing home. Very warm. Lecture on “customs & courtesies”. Clothing inspection. Athletics, played touch rugby. Tea [deleted] h [/deleted] at 4.30p.m., very nice. Drill after tea. Went to see Bert in evening. Made out a list of all the Leuchars lads & got their signatures, put on it preference for Lakeland, Florida.
Bed at 10-0pm.
[page break]
27 Tuesday 1942
Up at 5-0a.m. Washed & dressed than had 40 winks while assembly sounded. P.T. after breakfast very stiff.
Lecture on Guard Systems of Air Corps then drill. We combine our own & their drill now, makes it a bit better. Shower then dressed for dinner. Took in list to Orderly Room & was O.K. Dinner fine, served potatoes & tea today. Customs & Curtesies [sic] again after dinner.
Issued with text books and manuals.
Thunderstorm & very heavy rain. Took in laundry to stores then to tea. No “open post” tonight. Read a bit, then wrote home.
Had a shower & then to bed after cleaning up.
[page break]
28 Wednesday 1942
Up at 5.45a.m. Washed & dressed then breakfast. Much colder today Americans wearing greatcoats. P.T. after breakfast then lecture on “guards” Seems we’ll have to do it soon. Drill followed & had to take a squad. Dinner at 11.30 a.m. Took in boots to be repaired to stores. Had lecture on Military Law, then athletics till tea time. No Open Post again tonight. Had a shower, then read old letters etc. . then retired to bed at 9-0p.m.
[page break]
29 Thursday 1942
Up at 5.45 a.m. washed & dressed, then breakfast. Warmer today than yesterday. Calisthenics after breakfast.
Drill followed, then had to line up in formation & sign a form, what it’s for I don’t know. Saw officers that came over with us on boat.
Dinner at 11-30pm [sic] . Lecture on Civics; then on Terminology used at Training Schools.
Athletics till tea-time, played touch rugby. , Very warm.
No “Open Post” again, lads getting discontented & “browned off”.
Cleared up, washed and so to bed at 9-30p.m.
[page break]
30 Friday 1942
Up at 5-45a.m. Breakfast. Raining hard, ground soaked. No P.T. Lecture on Terminology. Gave in size of collars & trousers. Dinner at 11-30a.m. Lecture on Civics, very tiring, bad speaker. Marched down to stores & drew rifles & bayonents [sic]. No athletics. Tea at 4-30p.m.
“Retreat” formation; did it very well indeed. “Open Post” till midnight.
Went to town with basket-ball players. Went to see “Manpower” at “Clair”. Not bad. Wandered round & got back at 10p.m. & so to bed.
[page break]
31 Saturday 1942
Up at 5-40a.m. Raining very hard.
No P.T. Soon cleared up. Inspection by Commanding Officer. Nothing to do till dinner. Finished at 12 o’clock. Washed & changed & went out at 1-30p.m. Called at Y.M.C.A. & Services Club. Tea at “Georges” very nice. Saw “Across the Sierras”, bought shirt & towel & cleaning rod for rifle. Back in camp at 10p.m. Cleaned gun. Bed at 11-0p.m.
February 1 Sunday
Up at 5-50a.m. Breakfast. Laid on bed & read till dinner time.
Wrote to Vera. Went to see Bert after dinner. Tea at 4-30p.m. read paper then went to see “Corsican Brothers” very good
Bed at 11-0p.m.
[page break]
2 Monday 1942
Up at 6-0a.m. Calisthenics before Breakfast. Lecture on Terminology then drill for an hour. A little warmer now than first thing this morning.
Break for an hour then dinner.
Took up positions for possible air-raids on hillsides.
Film on Military Hygeine [sic] after that. Collected boots at stores then ‘Retreat’ formation with rifles.
Tea at 5.45p.m. Cleaned rifle & bayonet & boots. Finished letter to Vera. Bed at 9.30pm.
[page break]
3 Tuesday 1942
Up at 6-0 a.m. P.T. before breakfast. Lecture on Terminology then rifle drill for an hour. Lecture on Civvies then break while dinner.
Athletics, played touch-rugby. Brought back laundry, not too good. Film on Personal Hygiene.
Retreat formation with rifles & bayonets. Tea at 5.45p.m.
No open Post. Cleaned up, packed up laundry etc. Had a shower & so to bed at 9.30p.m.
Am playing t. rugby tomorrow for Platoon.
[page break]
4 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6-10a.m. P.T., wore our overalls over gym-kit.
Breakfast. Took in laundry, then lecture on History.
Drill with rifles & bayonets. Practice formal guard mounting. Break for an hour, then lecture on Geography. Dinner at 1.0pm.
Athletics, played T. rugby, no score. Film on Courtesy & Customs.
Retreat formation. Open Post. Went to Y.M.C.A. & watched basketball.
Had supper & arrived back at 11.0p.m. then bed.
[page break]
5 Thursday 1942
Up at 6.10a.m. P.T. a little warmer today. Breakfast, then lecture on History. Drill and Rifle Inspection. Mounted guard at 12.0 o’clock. Am on 3rd. relief Went on at 4.0p.m. at water tower. Off at 6.0pm. then tea. Wrote home. On again at 10p.m. till 12.0p.m.
Not bad doing guards here.
[page break]
6 Friday 1942
Off at 6.0 a.m. Calisthenics for others Breakfast then relieved guard for 1/2hr. On again at 10a.m. & off at 12.0a.m. Dinner. then parade for pay. Received 20 dollars. Bought two singlets from store. Read in afternoon after check-up. Weigh 158 stripped. Said I’d been payed in dimes & nickels.
Open Post. Didn’t go out.
Went to canteen, then library. Read a bit & then to bed at 10p.m. Rather tired.
[page break]
7 Saturday 1942
Up at 6.0a.m. Breakfast. No P.T. Cleaned up, then inspection. Nothing to do till dinner. Read in afternoon. No “Open Post”. Went to Camp Cinema to hear violinist. Very good show. Saw “Marry the Bosses’ Daughter”, not so good, bad acting. Bed at 10-30p.m. Bert came “home” today from hospital.
8 Sunday
Up at 6.0a.m. Breakfast. Ready for 8.30a.m. Left camp for Sylvester. 75 of us. Church first then split up for dinner. Bert & I went to Cooks. Grand time. Had to come back for retreat. No “Open Post”. Went to see Mac. Read & then to bed. Clocks on an hour.
[page break]
9 Monday 1942
Up at 7-0a.m. Breakfast then Calisthenics. Drill then break. Lecture on history Before dinner. Bought two pairs of underpants at store. Dinner at 12-30pm.
Talk on Aircraft Rec after dinner. Went to sleep again as usual.
Athletics, played touch-rugby.
Big parade for Wing Commander Hogan. Says we’ll be moving in 12 days time. Tea after that, then Retreat. Went to see Mac, with the boys. Read a bit and then to bed.
[page break]
10 Tuesday 1942
Up at 7-0am. Breakfast then Calisthenics. Rifle drill after for an hour. History lecture before dinner at 12-30pm. Film on Aircraft Recognition after dinner, not so good. Lecture by Mr. De Lom on Army & Customs etc. very good.
Athletics played touch-rugby again & won. Tea at 5-30p.m. then Retreat. Started raining. “Open Post”. Got a lift to “Adam’s Inn”. Still raining so Bert & others went back. Arrived at Sylvester at 8-30pm. Had a grand supper. Very nice people indeed. Left at 11-10p.m. Mr. Cork ill so couldn’t drive me back. Got a lift on a petrol waggon & arrived back just in time, only just too. Still raining, but I had a grand time.
[page break]
11 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6.45a.m. Breakfast. Johnie stayed in bed. No Calisthenics, ground too wet. No drill either. Saw “Target for Tonight” at camp cinema. Break then dinner after History Lecture. Aircraft Recognition lecture sleep as usual for half an hour. Bert took my trousers to be pressed at camp tailors.
Athletics & more touch-rugby, won again.
Tea at 5.30pm. then Retreat. John & Ted went to a dance in Albany for R.A.F. boys only.
Bert & I went to P.X. read a bit & then to bed.
The lads came in at 2.0a.m. had a good time.
[page break]
12 Thursday 1942
Up at 6-45am. Breakfast then Calisthenics. Supply Formation, drew extra Cassack bag.
Lecture on History, went to sleep.
Dinner at 12.30pm. Film at 2-0pm. on Aircraft Recognition.
Lecture on Customs & Courtesies. Athletics till tea-time, played touch rugby, & won; champions of squadron. Tea then retreat formation. Won colours for being smartest squadron. “Open Post”. Bert & I left at 7-30pm. with staff sergeant. Went to pictures to see “North of the Yukon” Drove out of town & passed all the “Barbeques, Joints, & night-clubs etc.
Stopped at “The Esquire” for a 7 up drink. Left at 11-25pm Called for a “hamburger with” in town & got back at 11-55p.m.
Very good evening out.
[page break]
13 Friday 1942
Up at 7-00a.m. Breakfast. Calisthenics, rather cold wind.
Drill for an hour with rifles.
Lecture on Organisation; went to sleep as usual. Dinner at 12-30 a.m.
Lecture on Aircraft Recognition, slept.
Athletics till tea time. Played touch-rugby, drew with “B” squadron champions. Replay needed. Lost at football.
Tea at 5.30p.m. then Retreat formation. Won colours again for smartest squadron. No “Open Post”. Wrote home. Shower, cleaned up and then to bed.
Bought pipe from P.X. not bad.
[page break]
14 Saturday 1942
Up at 7-0a.m. Breakfast. No P.T. Took in bed-sheets. Cleaned up, cleaned windows. Inspection at 10-30a.m. Everything O.K. Dinner at 12.30p.m. Got changed and left camp. Caught bus to Sylvester & arrived at 1-45p.m. Drove around town & picked up two girls Betty & Margery. Went to a dance & tried jitter-bugging, easy enough. Back to Cook’s for tea, scrumptious. Drove round country, & called back at dance for 10 minutes. Left at 10.30p.m. & back in billets at 11-45p.m.
Grand day.
15 Sunday
Up at 7.0a.m. Breakfast. Back to bed till dinner time. Dinner. Filled in diary wrote home. Frank got blood-poisoning. Rain all day. Tea at 5.30p.m. Went to P.X. Boys went to pictures. Bed at 10p.m.
[page break]
16 Monday 1942
Up at 7-0a.m. Still raining. No Calisthenics. Back to bed for 1/2hr. Breakfast at 8.45am. Air Corps Lecture at 10-0a.m. Not much good.
Drill at 11.0a.m. Rained again. Lecture on discipline at 1-00pm by a Lt. Colonel.
Dinner at 2-0p.m. No Athletics
Collected clean laundry from stores. Tea at 6-45pm.
Went to Albany with Eric, very close & sweaty. Went to see “It Happened in Bombay” at “Clair”. Caught bus back to camp. Bed at 12.00pm.
[page break]
17 Tuesday 1942
Up at 7-0a.m. Ground too [missing letter]et no Calisthenics. Start guard [missing letter]t 1-0p.m. Lecture on Bombardment Aviation. Dinner at 2-0p.m. Went on guard at Water Tower [missing letter]gain. American guard there too. Off at 5-0pm. Tea at 6-45p.m. read a bit, had a coffee & on at 9p.m. Coffee at 11-10p.m. then bed till 2-45a.m. [Off at 5-0am & bed again while 8-30a.m. Breakfast & on again at 9-30a.m. Finished at 11.0a.m. Dinner at 2-0p.m. Gave in rifles and bayonets. Tea at 6-45p.m.] see over.
[page break]
18 Wednesday 1942
Finished guards at 11-am. Dinner at 2-0p.m. Gave in rifles & bayonets at stores. Slept till tea-time.
Read a bit, had a coffee & then to bed. No Open Post as we were late for parade yesterday.
[page break]
19 Thursday 1942
Up at 7-0a.m. Calisthenics, rather cold. Breakfast at 8-45a.m.
Lecture on Observation & Reconnaisance [sic] by Lt. Honeycut, very good.
Drill for an hour.
Gave in books before dinner.
Dinner at 2-0p.m. Athletics in afternoon. Played touch rugby & won again, finals tomorrow some time.
Read a bit, then retreat formation, did very well.
Tea at 6-45p.m. Boys went to see McCoy. Went to P.X. for an hour, then wrote to Vera.
Bed at 10p.m.
[page break]
20 Friday 1942
Up at 7.0a.m. Calisthenics as usual. Breakfast at 8.45a.m.
Lecture by Lt. Lamb, had a good time, sang a few songs.
Drill for half an hour. Break till dinner. Bought new ‘Parker’ pen at P.X. $8.75 down to $5.25. Dinner at 2.0p.m. Pay parade, received our money handed in on boat & $11 pay.
“Open Post” after Retreat. Went to Albany, had steak & chips. Went to Services Club, party on, had a good time, College graduation dance. Called in at Clubroom then caught a wagon back to camp. In at 11-45p.m.
Bed at 12-15a.m. Tired.
[page break]
21 Saturday 1942
Up at 7.0a.m. Didn’t go to Calisthenics slept under Johnies bed. Breakfast. Cleaned up, then to P.X. bought new tie. Had photo taken. Finished Vera’s letter.
Dinner at 2-0p.m. Went to town with the lads. Saw “They Died with their Boots on”. very good.
Had tea at Georges’. Walked round and caught bus at 9.10p.m. In bed at 10.30p.m.
Leave at 8-0pm. tomorrow.
22 Sunday
Up at 7.0a.m. Breakfast at 9-0a.m. Received kit at stores. 3 shirts, 2pr. pants, 4 sets underwear, 6prs of socks. Packed kit & cleaned room out. Dinner at 2p.m. Tea at 6p.m.
Put kit on waggons. Entrained at 7.30pm.
Left at 8-0p.m. for Arcadia.
[page break]
23 Monday 1942
Woke up at 7.0am Not a very good night. Arrived at 7.30a.m. Taken by truck to camp. Grand place, rooms for four, lockers, shower and washplace to each room. Kit arrived at 10.a.m. Cleaned up & put kit away in lockers.
Dinner at 1-30pm. Grand food & mess hall. Went to stores and drew leather jacket, goggles, helmet & books. Room inspection. Tea at 6.0pm. Talk at 8.0p.m. by officers. Raining hard.
Bed at 10-30p.m.
Very nice place here, tennis courts, swimming pool, basketball court etc. Large rooms, good lighting, table & chairs.
[page break]
24 Tuesday 1942
Up at 6.25a.m. Cleaned up & breakfast at 7.0a.m. Paraded at 8.0a.m. & went down to Flight Line. Given some instructors & shown kites. Had controls etc. explained. Seems we’ve a lot to learn.
Dinner at 1.10p.m. Medical check after dinner. Went to lecture block and drew text books. Nothing to do till tea-time except retreat formation.
Tea very good. Cleaned bathroom, took all evening but looks good now. Had a shower & then to Bed at 10.30p.m.
[page break]
25 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6.25a.m. Breakfast at 7.0a.m. Went down to hangers and flight line at 7.30a.m. No flying, left at 9.0a.m. Had a coffee & came back to billets. Calisthenics at 11.45 to 12.45. very good. Dinner at 1-10p.m.
Classes at 2.0p.m. till 5.30p.m. Didn’t do so much 45 mins. on & off.
Retreat formation then tea. Cleaned up, had a shower & to bed at 10.30pm
[page break]
26 Thursday 1942
Up at 6.25a.m. Breakfast at 7-0a.m. Went down to hanger.
Had lecture on take-offs, circuits, wind directions, drift, S bends etc.
Very warm now, still in blues. Did Calisthenics for an hour, Sun very warm & turning red a bit. Shower & then dinner at 1-10p.m.
Classes at 2.0p.m. to 5.30p.m.
Retreat Formation at 6.15p.m. then tea. Had a chat with American Cadets.
Had a shower, wrote up notes on Navigation & so to bed at 10.30p.m.
Sent dad cablegram for his birthday, cost $2.85. about 14/3 approx.
[page break]
27 Friday 1942
Dad’s Birthday, hope his Cablegram arrives in time.
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast at 7-10a.m. Went down to Flight Line. Mr. Jones was absent. No flying, heavy squalls & Nor-west wind. Read Manual for an hour. Left at 10.0a.m. Had a coffee then looked up Theory of Flight.
Went to P.X. & Bert bought a camera. Dinner at 1-10p.m.
Classes 2. to 4-30p.m. Left early to watch tennis exhibition.
Took some snaps. Retreat Formation at 6.15p.m. Tea after retreat. Wrote up notes on Navigation. Bed at 10-30p.m. after a shower.
[page break]
28 Saturday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7-10a.m. Down at “Ready Room” at 7-50a.m. No Mr. Jones again. Read Handbook again. Calisthenics at 11.45a.m. for an hour. Played football. Dinner at 1-10p.m.
Groundschool at 2.0p.m. to 5-15p.m. Left early, went to canteen for orange soda & ice. Retreat, then tea. Wrote home, then did notes on Meteorology. Bed at 10-30p.m.
March 1 Sunday
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7-10a.m. Calisthenics at 8.0a.m. for an hour Very cold. Down at Ready Room at 9-30a.m. Mr Tanquay our instructor.
Up at 10.20a.m. for 40 mins. Grand plane. Dinner then Ground school till 5.30p.m. Retreat then tea. Wrote notes on Flying.
[page break]
2 Monday 1942
Didn’t get up while 7.0a.m. Missed breakfast parade. Went to canteen and had coffee & ham sandwiches. Rained very heavy. No Calisthenics. Down on Flight Line at 9.30a.m. No Flying, ground too wet. Stayed in hanger with Mr. Tanquay, explained Army Forms 1 & 1a. stalls, & forced landings.
Had a coffee, then dinner at 1.10p.m. Ground School 2pm to 5.30p.m. Changed into blues for Retreat. Tea after. Inspection at 8.30p.m. Demerits for speck of dirt on toilet. (Hope his rabbit dies)
Wrote letter to Vera. Bed at 10-30p.m. Received [deleted] lett [/deleted] cable from mum.
[page break]
3 Tuesday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7-0a.m. Calisthenics for an hour. Down on Line at 9-30a.m. Up at 10-20a.m.
Did. climbing turns, stalls, medium turns & landed after 50 mins. Received 1 demerit for leaving mop & broom in room.
Dinner at 1-10p.m. Ground school at 2.0p.m. Had exams in engines & Theory of Flight. Retreat formation at 6.20p.m then tea.
Wrote to Vera, then wrote up notes on Flying.
Bed after a shower.
[page break]
4 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast at 7-0a.m. Calisthenics for an hour. Down at Flight Line at 9.30a.m. Went up at 10-0a.m. Took off on my own. Did turns, stalls, and spins. Down after 45 mins.
Dinner at 1-10p.m. Changed into blues. Ground School for 3 1/2 hrs. Has sandwiches in canteen then waited for bus. Arrived in Sarasota at 8.30p.m. Went down to U.S.O. on pier and were invited to stay at the “Gulf View” Inn. Car took us & manager showed us round & introduced us to his guests. Band in dancehall, had a grand time. Pedro & I sang “Yours” and others joined in singing popillar [sic] songs, negro waiter sang [inserted] poor [/inserted] blues. Marvellous place, very welcome. Rooms for two with single beds. Bed at 1-0a.m. Very Tired.
[page break]
5 Thursday 1942
Up at 6.45a.m. Washed & dressed and went down for a walk on the beach. Waited in the lounge for the boys & then to breakfast. Read in lounge while girls came in then went down to the beach.
Went in for a dip but found it rather cold.
Dinner at 12-30p.m. Left at 1.30p.m. by bus to Sarasota. Bought a camera and a swimsuit.
Had a look round then went to a picture show as it rained. Caught bus at 5-30p.m. and arrived in Arcadia at 7-0p.m. Had tea in a restaurant then got bus back to camp at 8.30p.m. Bed at 9-45p.m.
[page break]
6 Friday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. rather tired. Breakfast at 7-0a.m.
Calisthenics for an hour.
Went down on Flight Line at 9.30a.m. Rain had soaked field, no flying, no instructors. Back to billets and wrote up notes on Flying.
Dinner at 1.10p.m. Ground school 2 to 5-30p.m. Pay parade after, received $16.
Retreat formation at 6.20p.m.
Tea at 7.0p.m.
Cleaned up room for inspection. Played basketball. Shower and then to bed at 10-30pm
[page break]
7 Saturday 1942
Up at 6-50a.m. Breakfast at 7.15a.m. Calisthenics for an hour then changed for flight line. Flew at 9.50a.m. Took off did climbing turns, stalls, spins. Did spins on my own, not too bad. Dinner at 1-10p.m. then groundschool at 2.0p.m. to 5-30p.m. Warmer today than yesterday. Played basket ball again. Shower & bed at 10-30p.m.
8 Sunday
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast at 7.10a.m. Down on “Dawn Patrol” this week. No flying, ground too wet. Calisthenics for an hour. Dinner then groundschool, didn’t do much. Tea then wrote home.
[page break]
9 Monday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Dawn Patrol. No flying, ground too wet. Gave in note-books for checking. Mr. Tanquay seemed pleased.
Didn’t do Calisthenics, wrote home instead. Dinner at 1.10p.m. Groundschool 2.0p.m. to 5.30p.m. Had exams in Navigation & Meteorology, did them O.K. Retreat formation then tea. Open Post. Managed to get on bus for Sarasota at 7-0p.m. Arrived at 8.30p.m. Booked a room at Hotel Watsons. Went with boys round towns to night-clubs etc. Had a good time & bed at 3-0a.m.
[page break]
10 Tuesday 1942
Up at 9-0a.m. Had breakfast at a restaurant then wandered round town. Bought a watch $4 quite good too. Saw Mr. Whipple at U.S.O and were invited out to dinner. Seven other chaps out there too.
Had a fine time on beach, sea very nice. Plenty of people there too. Saw Priscilla and Annette. Left at 4-30p.m by taxi. Got on bus at 5-3p.m. & arrived in Arcadia at 7-0p.m. Had ham & eggs at cafe then got bus back to camp. Booked in at 8-0p.m. Cleaned up, had a shower & then to bed at 9-30p.m. Very tired.
The lads are very red with the sun.
[page break]
11 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7.15a.m. Dawn Patrol. Bert up first, Johnie, then me. Took off, climbed to 2,500ft. did stalls power on, then power-off. Did a spin, not too bad. Landed at auxiliary field & took off again O.K. Landed again at field & taxied up to line, & parked ship. Calisthenics for an hour then dinner. Groundschool 2-0p.m. to 5-30p.m. Had exam in Theory for Flight. Retreat formation then tea. Played basketball, had a shower then wrote up notes on flying. Bed at 10.p.m.
Six of our lads solo’d today.
[page break]
12 Thursday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7-10a.m. Dawn Patrol again. Heavy ground mist no flying till 9-0a.m. No 1 ‘T’ pos changed to No 2 ‘T’ Pos at 10.0a.m. Up for 15 mins. Taxied to line, took off, climbed to 1500ft. did gliding turns, entered traffic, & landed again. Not too bad.
Calisthenics for an hour, played football, very warm. Took some snaps on Flight Line. Dinner at 1.00p.m. then Ground School 2.0p.m. to 5.30p.m.
Retreat formation at 6.20p.m. then tea. Wrote up notes on flying then started letter home.
Entered log-book up.
Bed at 10-30p.m.
[page break]
13 Friday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. breakfast at 7.10a.m. Dawn Patrol again. Johnie up first. Heavy ground fog came up & flying was suspended. “T” pos. changed from No. 2 to No. 4 & flying resumed at 11-0a.m. Didn’t go up. Calisthenics for an hour.
Took film in for developing. Dinner at 1-10p.m. Groundschool at 2.0p.m. to 5.30p.m. Plot to do in navigation easy enough. Retreat then tea-parade.
Played basketball till 8.0p.m. Had a shower, then read notes for exams tomorrow.
Bed at 10-0p.m.
[page break]
14 Saturday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7.10a.m. Dawn Patrol again. Johnie & Bert up. Cloud came in low, flying stopped. No flight again for me. Left line at 10.35 a.m. Calisthenics for an hour. Dinner at 1.10p.m.
Groundschool at 2.0p.m. to 5-30p.m. Exams in engines & theory for flight. Retreat at 6-15p.m. then tea. Finished letter home. Bed at 10.15p.m.
15 Sunday
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7.10a.m. Calisthenics for an hour then down on Flight Line. Flew for an hour, nothing right. Dont fly regular enough. Dinner at 1-10p.m. then Groundschool. Retreat then tea.
[page break]
16 Monday 1942
Up at 6.30am. Breakfast at 7-10a.m. Calisthenics for an hour then down on Flight Line at 9.30a.m. Flew for 33 mins, a lot better today. Dinner at 1.10p.m. Groundschool at 2.0p.m. to 5.30p.m. Retreat formation then tea at 6-30p.m.
Played basket-ball for an hour, cleaned up for inspection, which didn’t come off. Wrote up notes on flying. Read a little then to bed at 10.0p.m.
[page break]
17 Tuesday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7.0a.m. Down on line at 9.30a.m. Flew at 10.15a.m. for 47 mins. Did stalls, spins, landings & take-offs. Not so good today. Dinner at 1-10p.m. Groundschool at 2.0p.m. Exams in Meteorology & Engines. Retreat formation then tea at 6.30p.m. Wrote to Vera, then to bed at 10-15p.m.
[page break]
18 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7-0a.m. Calisthenics for an hour.
Down on line at 9-30a.m. Heavy low clouds, thunderstorm broke at 11.30a.m. Heavy rain. Had a talk with Tanquay on flying generally.
Dinner at 1-10p.m. Groundschool 2.0 to 5-30p.m. “Open Post” till 12.p.m.
Went to Arcadia with the lads, walked round a bit then went to skating rink & had a good time.
Caught last bus and got in to camp at 11-45pm.
Bed at 12p.m. very tired.
[page break]
19 Thursday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7.0a.m. Cleaned room, then Calisthenics for an hour.
Down on line at 9.30a.m. Flew at 10.5a.m. for 45 mins. Did stalls, spins, S. turns, & rect. courses. Had a good day today.
Dinner at 1-10p.m. then groundschool, test in Theory of Flight. Retreat at 6-20p.m. and tea at 7-0p.m. Wrote up notes on flying then to bed at 10-30p.m.
[page break]
20 Friday 1942
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast at 7.10a.m. Calisthenics for an hour then down on Flight Line.
Flew for 45 mins. Take-offs & landings O.K. Stalls not so good. Dinner at 1-10p.m.
Groundschool at 2.0p.m. to 5.30p.m. Pay Parade after. Received $21 dollars. Arranged to go with boys by car to Sarasota.
Retreat then tea. Played basketball, then wrote up notes on flying. Bed at 10.0p.m.
[page break]
21 Saturday 1942
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast then down on Flight Line. Flying not so bad today. Calisthenics for an hour then dinner. Changed into blues I then went with boys to Sarasota in private car. Touched 97m.p.h. & arrived in 45 mins. 54 mls.
Had a good time at the Lido & went in sea for a while. Drove round & had tea in town. Left at 8-15p.m. and arrived in Arcadia at 9-20p.m. Drove round & then back to camp for 10p.m. Tired.
22 Sunday
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast then down on Flight Line. Flying not so good. Check tomorrow. Calisthenics then dinner. Groundschool after, exam. in Meteorology not so bad.
Tea at 6.30p.m. Wrote up notes on Flying.
[page break]
23 Monday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7-10a.m. Down at Flight Line at 7-45am. Check ride, progress, with Flight Commander Eckart. Flying not so good, passed on to Army for another opinion. Calisthenics for an hour then dinner at 1-10p.m.
Groundschool in afternoon, test in Navigation, fairly easy. O.K.
Retreat then tea at 6-30p.m. Cleaned up for inspection which didn’t take place. Had a coffee, then cleaned buttons, boots etc. Read a little then to bed at 10p.m.
[page break]
24 Tuesday 1942
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast at 7-10a.m. Down on Flight Line at 7-45a.m. Up for Army Check. Took it at 12-15p.m. Got through it, flying not so good though. Calisthenics for an hour, then dinner.
Flying again this afternoon. Went for another Check Ride with Lt. Flophenstein & was eliminated for mechanical & dangerous flying. Back to Moncton next Tuesday.
Tea after Retreat. Received February’s News Letter from Dick Thomas.
Wrote to Dick after a coffee at canteen. Read a book & then to bed at 10-30p.m.
20 lads went back to Moncton today after being eliminated.
[page break]
25 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast at 7-10a.m. Cleaned buttons & boots etc. then cleaned room a bit.
Hung around all morning waiting for board meeting. Dinner at 1-10p.m. Went round camp and took some snaps of swimming pool & flight line etc. Retreat formation then tea. Had a coffee at canteen then read a while. Bed at 10.3p.m.
Seniors had Graduation Dance tonight, good band. Listened to band while 12p.m. then dropped off to sleep.
[page break]
26 Thursday 1942
Up at 7.30a.m. Didn’t go to breakfast. Had sandwiches in Canteen. Wrote letters home, to Vera & Betty Hughes. Went to try & get leave but have to wait for board. Dinner at 1.10p.m. Read book all afternoon. Retreat then tea.
Read a while, cleaned up, then to bed at 10-p.m.
[page break]
27 Friday 1942
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast at 7.10a.m. Cleaned room up, then went to see if boys had heard when board was to be. Filled in diary.
Board meeting at 11-0a.m.
Nothing much in it. Said I’d do for Observer, dangerous flying, & mechanical flying too. George & I managed to get leave while Monday noon. Had dinner then cleaned up. Tea at 6.30pm. then got bus for Sarasota. Arrived at 9-0p.m. Went to U.S.O. then on to Casa Madrid & saw film.
Called in at Manhattan & met Mr & Mrs Harris, & Mrs Bauer. Invited us out to hotel.
[page break]
28 Saturday 1942
29 Sunday
[page break]
30 Monday 1942
[page break]
31 Tuesday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7.15a.m. Gave in blankets & sheets etc. Took kitbag to Administration block at 9-0a.m. Signed papers at 9.30a.m. & gave in Clearance Form.
Got kit ready, then went to the boys. Had dinner at 11-30a.m. Saw Maxine & Flossie, then the lads & then departed with kit for train. Saw Kathryn in Arcadia. Left at 1-15p.m. for Moncton.
[page break]
April 1 Wednesday 1942
Bad night, didn’t sleep very well.
[page break]
2 Thursday 1942
Crossed border at Vanceboro’ at 7-0a.m. Had passport checked & baggage. Dinner at 12-0a.m. very good. Arrived at Moncton at 3-45p.m. Walked up to camp & messed about giving in particulars for an hour. Billeted in same block as Jack Kellet & boys. Went into town & had tea. Walked round then went to pictures to see “Shanghai Gesture” very good too. Arrived in camp at 11-30 p.m. and so to bed.
[page break]
3 Friday 1942
Stayed in bed till 11-0a.m. Cleaned up & then had dinner
Went to town & met Mr Grant & had a ride round in his car. Had tea at his house & then late dinner at 7-0p.m. Stayed until 11-30p.m. then Mr Grant brought us back to camp.
Had a grand evening very nice evening & can go there when we want to.
[page break]
4 Saturday 1942
Up at 6.45a.m. Cleaned up, then breakfast. Paraded at 9.0a.m.
Went up to pay accounts & drew $5 as a casual payment. Went into town for dinner. Walked round then had tea. Went to pictures at night to see “Ride Em Cowboy” with Abbott & Costello. Back in camp at 10-p.m. Had a shower & then to bed.
5 Sunday
Up at 6.45a.m. Cleaned up then breakfast. Church parade 9.0a.m. Went into town for dinner. Walked round then back to camp for tea. Pressed trousers & jacket, filled in diary. Bed at 10-30p.m.
[page break]
May 11 Monday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. Breakfast at 7-0a.m. Paraded at 8.0a.m. Drill for an hour, went to Medical Quarters for a check-over. Filled out forms etc., then dinner. Saw minister of United Church. Met our officer & had a chat with him.
Tea at 4.0p.m. Parade at 5.0p.m. for retreat. Wrote letters.
[page break]
12 Tuesday 1942
Up at 6-30a.m. Breakfast at 7-0a.m.
Paraded at 8.0a.m. Went to lecture block at 9-0a.m.
Went to hangar and had flying kit issued. Not so good.
Dinner at 12.0a.m. Went & had signals test, not so bad. Was shown round plane & had things explained. Were fitted with parachute harness. Drew issue of books, & instruments etc., Tea at 4.0p.m. Paraded at 5p.m. received passes & left camp at 7.0p.m. Had a coffee then went up to the social at St. Lukes. Had a grand time & left at 11.30p.m. Arrived back in camp at 12-10a.m. & so to bed.
[page break]
13 Wednesday 1942
Up at 6.30a.m. breakfast by 7-0a.m. Paraded at 8.0a.m. drilled for a while then Signals course. Navigation till dinner time.
Dinner at 12.0a.m.
Signals at 1-30p.m. for an hour then Bombing for two hours. Tea at 4-30p.m. Retreat 5-15p.m. Signals 6.30p.m. for an hour.
Filled in diary.
Paraded at 9.0p.m. made bed & did a bit more of diary.
[page break]
14 Thursday 1942
[page break]
Notes for 1943
[page break]
Cash Account – January
Date Particulars Received Dollars. Paid
3. English £2-0-0
20. Canadian. 3 - -
21. American. 10 - -
[page break]
Cash Account – February
Date Particulars Received Paid
6TH. Feb. American. $20-00
20TH. Feb. American. $11-00
[page break]
Cash Account – March
Date Particulars Received Paid
6TH. MAR. American. $.16 - -
20TH. MAR. American. $21 - -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kenneth Gill 1942 Diary
Description
An account of the resource
Starts with account of movements in RAF for 1941. Continues lwith entries for daily activities. Embarks Greenock, Leaves Milford Haven on 8 January for voyage across Atlantic and describes voyage to Canada. Arrives Moncton 20 January describes daily routine. Left for United States on 22 January. Describes train journey via New York, Washington, Atlanta and arrived at Turner Field, Albany Georgia 24 January. Goes on with daily entries describing activities mentioning food, lessons, sport, weather, rifle training, social activities and physical training. Mentions visit to Sylvester. Transfers to Arcadia, Florida 22 February. Starts flying training at end of February. Continues with description of ground school, flying and other daily activities. Mentions visit to Sarasota. Failed pilot flight check on 24 March 1942 an was sent back to Moncton, Canada. Entries for a few days activities and entries then peter out for April and May and then cease.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
K Gill
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-01
1942-02
1942-03
1942-04
1942-05
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-01
1942-02
1942-03
1942-03-24
1942-04
1942-05
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Scotland--Glasgow
Wales--Pembrokeshire
Wales--Milford Haven
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
New York (State)--New York
Washington (D.C.)
Georgia
Georgia--Atlanta
Georgia--Albany
Florida
Florida--Arcadia
Florida--Sarasota
Florida
Georgia
New York (State)
New Brunswick
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Diary
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Multi-page printed booklet with handwritten entries
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SGillK1438901v10013
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Bradbury
aircrew
entertainment
military living conditions
military service conditions
pilot
sport
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1383/24188/PFordTA17110048.2.pdf
645cb05bfaa58a6f573444126dbe81cf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ford, Terry. Album Two
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ford, T
Description
An account of the resource
67 items. Photographs concerning Terry Ford's training in Canada wartime and post war service. It contains some images taken inside an aircraft during operations.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Last day at Keppoch and Sackville Station
Description
An account of the resource
Four photographs from an album.
Photo 1 is six men on a beach, captioned 'At Keppoch Beach day before we left'.
Photo 2 is 12 airmen standing on the station platform, captioned 'On station at Sackville, N.B.'
Photo 3 is four airmen on the station platform, captioned Fil examines his ticket to New York'.
Photo 4 is four airmen standing on the platform, identified as 'Fanny A. Ian Dunlop Self John Cox'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four b/w photographs on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFordTA17110048
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Prince Edward Island
New Brunswick--Sackville
United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
New Brunswick
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aircrew
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2238/41491/MFairbanksLW10611800-180215-040001.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2238/41491/MFairbanksLW10611800-180215-040003.1.jpg
41dcae4ce9bde86496a41d71863a5cc3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fairbanks, Leonard William
Fairbanks, LW
Description
An account of the resource
16 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Leonard William Fairbanks (b. 1911, 1061800, 136326 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents, photographs, and propaganda leaflets in French.
He flew operations as a wireless operator and a special operator with 408 and 223 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jean Carol Carter and catalogued by Lynn Corrigan.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-15
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Fairbanks, LW
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Le Courrier de l'Air
Description
An account of the resource
Winston Churchill being cheered in Sheffield; naval warfare in the Atlantic; German invasion of Russia; actions of the Free French Forces plus photographs of various military leaders.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Propaganda Warfare Executive
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Sheffield
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Alexandria
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)--Saint Petersburg
United States
New York (State)
New York (State)--New York
Language
A language of the resource
fra
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four printed sheets
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription. Other languages than English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MFairbanksLW10611800-180215-040001, MFairbanksLW10611800-180215-040002, MFairbanksLW10611800-180215-040003, MFairbanksLW10611800-180215-040004
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
propaganda
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/194/27239/EAdamsHGAdamsBHB[Mo]440114.pdf
ab1d1a99153e10be21c8b22867eb1890
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Adams, Herbert
Herbert Adams
H Adams
Herbert G Adams
Description
An account of the resource
88 items. Collection concerns Herbert George Adams DFC, Legion d'Honour (b. 1924, 424509 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 467 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, photographs of people and places, several memoirs about his training and bombing operations, letters to his family, his flying logbook and notes on navigation.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Herbert Adams and catalogued by Nigel Huckins and Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Adams, HG
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
354636
To:- MRS BRUCE ADAMS,
“SPRINGFIELD”,
MENDOORAN. NSW.
AUSTRALIA.
[date stamp 17 JAN 1944]
Sender’s Address 424504 Sgt Adams HG. RAAF. AUSPO. Kodak House, Kingsway. London.
14/1/44.
No. [circled 1]
Dear Mum & Family,
I got my first Airgraph letters today from Betty. As you know now we didnt [sic] go to Canada at all, but were [deleted] redicte [/deleted] redirected to England when we hit America. Had a marvellous time there for about a fortnight altogether including Xmas dinner. The people were absolutely wonderful to us & made us right at home & welcome everywhere. The trip was quiet & uneventful & very 500ish all the time. Have sent Betty the new address by cable so you can write direct now.
Saw lots of snow coming across America but no White Xmas in New York. Lot of the boys caught colds there but I was lucky – haven’t had one since Coota.
I guess there isn’t very much to write about each time unless I wrote a bookfull [sic] & thats [sic] impractical so I’ll concentrate on writing often. I’m very well & happy & we’re having a pretty easy time of it where we are getting settled in. Playing hockey to-morrow & probably going on leave next week & will have tennis (the racket survived the trip). Love to everyone at home.
Writing again very soon. Bert XXXX
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Herbert Adams to his mother
Description
An account of the resource
Describes in broad terms his journey across the United States following his group being reassigned to England whilst on-route to Canada, and that he has received aerograph letters from “Betty”.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
H G Adams
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-01-14
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EAdamsHGAdamsBHB[Mo]440114
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
New South Wales
New South Wales--Cootamundra
United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1376/23935/EStockbridgeJFordTA430707-0001.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1376/23935/EStockbridgeJFordTA430707-0002.1.jpg
bf093fe55bdfa1f86f4926d4df86074b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1376/23935/EStockbridgeJFordTA430707-0003.1.jpg
cea4e6070b71ee0fd7aa53f0179bbda4
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ford, Terry
Ford, T
Description
An account of the resource
135 items. The collection concerns Terry Ford. He flew operations as a pilot with 75 Squadron. It contains photographs, his log book, operational maps, letters home during training, and documents including emergency drills. There are two albums of photographs, one of navigation logs, and another of target photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Julia Burke and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ford, T
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Royal Canadian Air Force Crest]
Sgt Stockbridge
RCAF
Bagotville
7.7.43.
Dear Terry.
Well, I suppose I should apologize for not having written for such a time, but as you know I am pretty shocking @ writing letters @ the best of times even to Girls!!!
How are you getting along on your Course? I expect you have nearly finished by now. We are finishing in 2 weeks from last Saturday & I am hoping to go on leave to New York for a few days before reporting to Moncton!! Oh boy. I have now completed 48 hrs on the a/c & honestly they are wizard machines
[page break]
especially now that we have started firing the eight machine guns, my word do they roar!!!! Its an absolutely marvelous [sic] feeling sitting in the cockpit behind a solid stream of bullets!!!! We do all sorts of things here including [underlined] bags [/underlined] of low flying & also low level attacking of islands in the lakes around here: its wizard!!!! I went up to 35000 ft the other day with another in formation & then @ that height we had a dog fight & my word I was shagged when I landed, as you can quite imagine. I would love to go back to Weyburn now & show them a thing or two about [underlined] close [/underlined] formation & my word is it close. Whew!!!! Old Kendall & another bloke were up dog fighting the other day & had a mid-air collision but luckily the a/c were landed OK & no injury to the pilots, but the wing-tip of Kens plane was badly smashed in &
[page break]
there was a large rip on the underside of the other fellows wing!!!! Such fun!!
Received a letter yesterday from my girl in Weyburn & she says that there have been two serious accidents @ 41 SFTS. One mid-air collision where one of the fellows was killed & another crash where a fellow was doing stunts over his girls house & his wing came off!!!! He was of course, killed.
When will you be going to Moncton? I may see you there! I hope so!! How are the rest of the lads getting along? they are all doing fine here. We are officially [indecipherable word] as fighter pilots now & as you can guess we are all bucked about it!!!! By the way, how did you get on in your ground subjects. I expect you came through with flying colours as you did @ Weyburn
[page break]
Well! Must close now as I am going to bed!!! Give my kindest regards to all the boys when you see them & ask Cox to let me have the photos of Bradshaw & me standing by an a/c as I would like them very much.
Cheerio for the present
your old pal.
John
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from John Stockbridge to Terry Ford
Description
An account of the resource
The letter contains news from Bagotville.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Stockbridge
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-07-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four handwritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EStockbridgeJFordTA430707-0001,
EStockbridgeJFordTA430707-0002,
EStockbridgeJFordTA430707-0003,
EStockbridgeJFordTA430707-0004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Québec--Saguenay
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
New York (State)--New York
Saskatchewan--Weyburn
New York (State)
Québec
New Brunswick
Saskatchewan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-07-07
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jan Waller
aircrew
crash
pilot
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1827/33619/EWeedenRCCartwrightWA430525.1.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Weeden, Reginald Charles
R C Weeden
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Weeden, RC
Description
An account of the resource
89 items. The collection concerns Reginald Charles Weeden (b. 1922, 1602823, 153661 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, letters, documents, badges, medal ribbons and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 75 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Scott Weeden and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MR. W.A. CARTWRIGHT
416 COWLEY ROAD
OXFORD
ENGLAND.
088770
1602823 LAC. WEEDEN R.C.
NO: 1 A.O.S.
MALTON.
ONTARIO.
CANADA
25-5-43.
Dear Bill,
In reply to your air mail letter of which I was pleased to receive – thanks – and it was so good of you to remember my birthday. I have so little time to write letters, the work simply piles up especially on this course, and I am now receiving at regular intervals quite a batch of mail which I have not yet caught up in replying. From Mums letter you seem to be very busy at work, have you had any more cars yet? the rationing of petrol over here is getting quite severe and it is expensive to travel by train, but all the same I am seeing plenty of the country. I have still a long way to go, to get as far as Winnipeg, the nearest being Detroit, this is a grand place, but I still want to see more of New York. As far as I can see I shall have little opportunity to get about now, what with this course, we will have completed it by November, then to Moncton, then home, I believe we worked it out another 133 days, but I may have time yet. I am on a 48 hour pass this week-end, we get one each month, so I shall be spending this one in Toronto, I will have a look round for the coat you were asking about, and see what I can do. I bet Mum would spend a fortune over here, no shortage of clothes, no rationing. Well Bill I must close now, write when you can. Give my love to all especially little Evelyn.
All the best, Yours. Reg.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Reginald Weeden to Bill Cartwright
Description
An account of the resource
Writes that he had been so busy he had little time to write letters and catch up with all his mail. Asks after Bill's work and comments on petrol rationing in Canada. Mentions although it was expensive to travel by train but he was seeing plenty of the country. Talks about the length of his course and he would not get much opportunity to see more of the country. mentions 48 hour pass and spending time in Toronto, mentions that there was no shortage of clothes and no rationing of them.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
R C Weeden
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-05-25
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page handwritten airgram
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EWeedenRCCartwrightWA430525
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Ontario--Huron (County)
Ontario--Toronto
United States
New York (State)--New York
Michigan--Detroit
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Oxford
Michigan
New York (State)
Ontario
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-25
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription. Under review
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
aircrew
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1827/33582/EWeedenRCCartwrightI430303.2.jpg
c3e8b5be20d8ee0b31f5aebfabcb6da9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Weeden, Reginald Charles
R C Weeden
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Weeden, RC
Description
An account of the resource
89 items. The collection concerns Reginald Charles Weeden (b. 1922, 1602823, 153661 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, letters, documents, badges, medal ribbons and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 75 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Scott Weeden and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MRS. I. CARTWRIGHT
416 COWLEY ROAD
OXFORD
ENGLAND.
367676
1602823 WEEDEN R.C.
L.A.C.
31 PD, R.A.F STATION, 1 SQUADRON, 48A/6 BILLET
MONCTON, NEW BRUNSWICK, CANADA.
3rd March 1943
My dear Mum,
I expect you will be glad to receive this after such a long time – I hope my cable arrived – I sent this as soon as I could. We had a very long voyage arriving two days late and I must say I made a very poor sailor during the first three days out – seasick, but bucked up afterwards fortuneatley. [sic] The food was absolutely grand – eggs, white bread, butter and plenty of milk chocolate, yes, no doubt your mouth does water. The sleeping accommodation though was no picnic – hammocks but on the whole we can’t grumble. Excitement arose on sighting land, and then later passing the Statue of Liberty and the Skyscrapers towering above us, what a moment, yes it was New York. We had hoped of touring the city but to our disappointment weren’t allowed off ship. The next evening saw us on the train bound for Canada, and after a 40 hour journey arrived at Moncton. This is only another dispersal centre before we are posted to Flying School. Well I must come to a close now – paper space – but will write a long letter soon, so I send you all my love. Best wishes for your birthday. Regards to Dennis and Bill and kisses to Evelyn, Yours Reg. XXXXXXXX
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Reginald Weeden to his mother
Description
An account of the resource
Had just arrived in Canada. Mentions and describes some aspects of voyage and arrival in New York. Followed by train journey to Moncton Canada awaiting posting to flying training unit.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
R C Weeden
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-03-03
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
New York (State)--New York
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Oxford
New York (State)
New Brunswick
Atlantic Ocean
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-03-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page handwritten airgram
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EWeedenRCCartwrightI430303
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription. Under review
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
military living conditions
military service conditions
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1827/33612/EWeedenRCCartwrightI431004.1.jpg
42cea30dc431f611052447ea23681f04
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Weeden, Reginald Charles
R C Weeden
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Weeden, RC
Description
An account of the resource
89 items. The collection concerns Reginald Charles Weeden (b. 1922, 1602823, 153661 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, letters, documents, badges, medal ribbons and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 75 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Scott Weeden and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MRS. I. CARTWRIGHT
416 COWLEY ROAD
OXFORD
ENGLAND.
401067
P/O WEEDEN R.C.
NO: 31 A.N.S.
PORT ALBERT
ONTARIO
CANADA.
4-10-43
My dear Mum,
I trust you received my cables and I expect you are just as thrilled about my promotion as I am myself, of course I should have loved to have come home to see you all but I am sure you will be happy that I am stopping out here although disappointed that we shall have to put off my party to some future occasion. At present I am on two weeks leave spending this week-end at Mrs. Ashtons they were very pleased and excited about the good news and they thoroughly enjoyed the graduation ceremony on Thursday. I wish you could have been there, what an event, L.A.C. Thursday, sergeant for 24 hours then Pilot Officer. I am off to New York on Tuesday for a few days as soon as I get fitted out with my uniform. What a time I had on Saturday shopping. I report to my new station on the 17th on a six week instructors course, from there being sent to another school to instruct, hoping that it will be south for I don’t think I shall like the winter which is gradually settling in. Well, Mum, I made the grade and feel very happy and pleased, I am sure you feel very proud now, all my love to you and all the best to Dennis and Bill
Yours Reg xxxxx
To Evelyn xxxxx
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Reginald Weeden to his mother
Description
An account of the resource
Writes that he is thrilled with his promotion and although he would have loved to come home, was sure she would be happy that he was staying in Canada. Says he is on leave and spending time with Canadian friends. Wished she could have been at graduation ceremony. Writes that he was off to New York for a couple of days after getting fitted for new uniform. He was then to report to new station for instructors course after which he wold be sent to another school. Comments that he will not like the winter there. Concludes that he made the grade and was pleased with himself.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
R C Weeden
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-10-04
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page handwritten airgram
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EWeedenRCCartwrightI431004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Ontario--Huron (County)
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Oxford
United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Ontario
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-04
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription. Under review
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
aircrew
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
promotion
training