2
25
134
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2041/32966/PScottEW17020010.2.jpg
7f4c0b116a5f46d612bbffa000e734d6
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Title
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Scott, Eric William. Album 2
Description
An account of the resource
67 items. Photographs mostly taken during training in the United States with a few while training in England and serving in North Africa and Italy.
Date
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2017-04-06
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Scott, EW
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Title
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Canadian Trains
Description
An account of the resource
Title 'Canada, Moncton NB'.
Caption left side - 'Typical railroad station'.
Left - steam locomotive on tracks with two men in front. Top centre - front view of a steam locomotive with buildings to the right. Bottom centre - view across multiple railway tracks to tracked equipment.
Right - two steam locomotives side by aside on parallel tracks with structure on right side. Captioned 'Crossing Hell Gate bridge'.
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Four b/w photographs mounted on an album page
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PScottEW17020010
Coverage
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Civilian
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Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
New Brunswick
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1375/23745/PEdgarAG19010094.1.jpg
b1ea5686f8ec52ec950901d712836334
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1375/23745/PEdgarAG19010095.1.jpg
3141e63ff7d13c92da1d2d172805c98f
Dublin Core
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Title
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Edgar, Alfred George
Edgar, A G
Description
An account of the resource
83 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer Alfred George 'Allan' Edgar DFC (b. 1922, 172180 Royal Air Force) He flew operations as a pilot with 49 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Pip Harrison and Sally Shawcross nee Edgar, and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-04
2019-10-01
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Edgar, AG
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Title
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DC-3 Double Image
Description
An account of the resource
A double exposed image of a C-47. On the reverse 'A DC-3 proves that you can be in two positions at the same time. Edgar does the impossible!!! Mocnton 42 SFTS'.
Date
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1942
Format
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One b/w photograph
Language
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eng
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PEdgarAG19010094,
PEdgarAG19010095
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
New Brunswick
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
C-47
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1401/27272/BMooreDMooreDv1.1.pdf
6f33157a0b1575c878747146f837b62b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Moore, Dennis
D Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-05-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Moore, D
Description
An account of the resource
37 items and two albums.
The collection concerns (1923 - 2010, 1603117, 153623 Royal Air Force) and contains his log books, documents, photographs and two albums. He flew operations as a navigator with 218 and 15 Squadrons.
Album one contains photographs of his family and his training in Canada.
Album Two contains photographs of his service in the Far East.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Terrence D Moore and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Dennis Moore
28.06.1923 – 30.10.2010
[photograph]
Autobiographical notes
DM Memoirs (Second Edition)
Compiled and edited by Terry D Moore
[censored lines]
1
[page break]
2
[page break]
Foreward
In late 1991, following the end of the Cold War and the cessation of hostilities in Iraq. the Government's "Options for Change" defence review led to the disbandment of several RAF squadrons, one of which was XV Squadron which had played a significant role in the first Gulf War. As a former member of this squadron, in which he flew as a Lancaster Navigator during the Second World War, my father was invited to attend the disbandment ceremony in Laarbruch, Germany, and I had the privilege of accompanying him as his guest.
Although he continued to serve in the RAF until 1964, Dad had never talked about his wartime experiences but, during the long car journey to and from Germany, all that changed – the memories flooded back as though it were yesterday. The stories became very familiar to me as they were regularly recounted at the many air-shows and Squadron Reunions we attended over almost two decades
Sadly, he did not live to celebrate his birthday on 28th June 2012, the day on which Queen Elizabeth II unveiled the long overdue Bomber Command Memorial in London's Green Park. However, my wife Penny and I proudly attended as his representatives
[photograph]
The ceremony, honouring the 55,730 airmen who lost their lives during the Second World War, was attended by more than 5,000 second world war veterans and it brought to mind the last words of the Antarctic explorer, Captain R.F. Scott: "had we survived I would have had a take to tell . . . . . . ." Well he did survive – a thirty-three sortie tour with Bomber Command, and his tales are told in the form of these "Autobiographical Notes" which he compiled following our trip to Germany in 1991.
I spent many hours editing his notes, which I illustrated with photographs from his albums and, thankfully, was able to get his seal of approval before he died. Since then I have added more photos and later material which I found in his papers. I am certain that he would have approved.
[photograph]
Terry Moore, July 2012
3
[page break]
[photograph]
"60 years on" – with PA474 at RAF Lossiemouth, May 2005
[photograph]
Pam and me at XV Squadron "90th Birthday" reunion, Lossiemouth
4
[page break]
Dennis Moore
AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL NOTES
1923 – 1939
I was born at 98 Camden Crescent, Chadwell Heath, Essex on 28th June 1923. The youngest child of Thomas and Mary Moore 1, brother to Thomas (Owen) 2 and sister Joyce 3.
About 1926/7 the family moved to 150 Croydon Road, Beddington, Surrey.
My education began at Bandon Hill School, Wallington.
At the age of 7 I fell ill with infantile paralysis (Polio). I was taken to St. Thomas's Hospital in London where I spent nearly 3 months. I was immobilised in a body splint but do not remember much about the treatment except having pins stuck in the soles of my feet periodically (mostly in middle of night!). Apparently I was very lucky to have been diagnosed so quickly and affected in whole body rather than in particular limbs. I only remember there being some form of epidemic in the ward and visitors were not allowed for three weeks or so. The doctor promised me 5 shillings (a lot of money for an eight year old in those days) if I could walk unaided from the end of my bed to the end of the bed opposite by the time my parents were allowed back in. He had to pay up! All together I was off school for nearly a year. I started back in a wheel chair but soon discarded it!
In 1934 I got a place at Wallington County School for Boys. I was not very good at school but just about managed to keep up, though mostly somewhere near the bottom of the form! I only once ever obtained good results in exams when I managed to come [italics] first [/italics] in a science exam, and that was only because, by chance, I had swotted up the night before on all the right things!
I joined the school Scouts (9th Wallington {County School} Troop) and did quite well. Our Scout Master, A. D. Prince, was the school science master. I became Patrol Leader of the 'Owls' and eventually obtained the King's Scout badge and the 'Bushman's Thong'. Nearly every holiday was spent camping or 'Trekking'. In 1937 I attended the Scout Jamboree at Zandfoort in Holland (pictures in green photo album). None of us liked the very militant contingent from Germany who threw their weight about at all the 'get-togethers'.
[photograph]
Joyce, Dad, Mum and me
I represented the Scouts at swimming and the school 2nd XV at Rugby. All my spare time was taken up with tennis at Beddington House Lawn Tennis Club, playing and helping to maintain the tennis courts.
My swimming ability arose from the Polio recovery therapy. Long daily sessions were spent in the hospital pool and then in the local swimming baths in Croydon.
Our house was quite close to Croydon Airport and two of my friends lived actually overlooking the airfield. We could recognise all of the airlines and aircraft that we saw landing and taking off each day. This aroused my life long interest in flying.
1 Thomas Henry Moore (1892-1967), Mary (née Tait) (1893-1984)
2 Thomas Owen (b. 3 October 1917, d. 2 November 2010)
3 Joyce (b. 11 July 1919, d. 16 May 2012)
5
[page break]
1939
Mid-June – our summer holiday at The Hartland Hotel, Hartland Point, Devon was delayed so that I could take the last exam of Matriculation (Economics) but I did so badly that we need not have wasted the extra day. I left school at the beginning of July, aged 16
War started on 3rd September and we listened to the radio broadcast by Neville Chamberlain, which was immediately followed by the Air Raid warning and all of us really though that we were about to be annihilated.
I started work at 'CUACO' (Commercial Union Assurance (Marine Department)) in Lime Street, London. Starting Pay was 21 shillings & sixpence (£1.12 1/2) per week and a railway season ticket cost 13 shillings (60p) per month. My boss was called Godin. I spent most of the time making onionskin copies of documents – before the days of photocopiers! The Underwriters were almost like gods and had to be treated as such. The firm had a lunch club in Ropemaker Street (near Moorgate Tube Station). It was a very old and decrepit building and we had one of the top floors, which could only be reached by very rickety stairs. It was well worth the 10-15 minute walk to get there, through the many alleyways and quick-cuts through other buildings, as the meal was free!!! Later, this building was destroyed by bombing and the Barbican now stands on the site.
I joined the AFS (Auxiliary Fire Service) as a Messenger.
1940
Joined the CUACO Tennis club. Played on the sports ground in the Sidcup area. In late summer I witnessed the bombings in the surrounding area.
The evacuation of Allied Forces from Dunkirk, following the German advance through Belgium, Holland and France, took place at the end of May and was completed around 3rd June. I had holiday from work a few days later and went on a cycle tour of Devon. I caught the train to Exeter, then cycled & stayed at YHA's from there. I passed many camps of army people who had just got back. They were not allowed to send mail without it being censored, so I acted as 'Mail Boy' for many of them who called me over from inside the fence. One of the hostels I stayed at was at Waters Meet (now a National Trust site) and the Warden and I were the only two people there. He took me into Lynton (or perhaps Lynmouth) and introduced me to real cider. It did not take much of this to wake up next morning with a very thick head! However, a long hike up the river soon altered that. At Salcombe, I managed to hire a motor boat (dinghy) and could not understand why the chap who hired it to me insisted that there was a full tank of petrol. I now imagine he must have thought that I was going into the Channel to pick up more 'Dunkirk Survivors' – I must have been very naive at the time!!
The 'Battle of Britain' started in earnest about 12th August. I had been playing tennis at Sidcup when the first bombing of airfields started. On the 15th (or possibly the 18th), I was in the garden at 150 Croydon Road Beddington when aircraft flew over with bombs dropping from them aimed towards Croydon aerodrome. The following day I was called to the Bourjois factory with the AFS to try and get underneath some girders to see if anyone was trapped. A few days later, Dad took us all to live with the Robsons in Charlton Cottage, Copperkins Lane, Amersham, which they rented for a short while. I joined the local Scout Troop (1st Chesham Bois) and met the King family. After short time, by general consent, I was made Troop Leader.
I travelled up to London daily by train with George King & his brother. On one occasion, after a very heavy night raid, it took two hours to walk from Paddington to Lime Street through the devastated city. I camped out at weekends at Chalfont Heights and Great Hampden.
The Blitz was at its height during this period and London and the surrounding area were seemingly bombed every night.
6
[page break]
1941
Early in year the folks moved back to Beddington but I stayed on and lived with one of the King family at 'Rose Cottage' in Chesham Bois. I visited Len Reynolds (see Gunboat 658) who worked for Sun Insurance and had been evacuated to Wrest Park, Silsoe, Beds. I cycled from Amersham via Luton and was chased by a dog for a long way up the A6. Recent visits to Wrest Park are somewhat nostalgic.
24th April 1941, on leaving Chesham Bois, I was presented with a Photo Album by George King and members of 1st Chesham Bois Scout Troop.
[photograph]
Len Reynolds and myself in uniform
Changed jobs soon after a devasting German bombing raid on London on 10th May and started with Gold Exploration & Finance Company of Australia, which had been evacuated to Sandroyd School, Oxshott. The first few days were spent in the old office in Basinghall Street helping to move files and papers from the partially bombed building. During the week I lived at Sandroyd (in a small house called Kittermasters) and cycled home to Beddington at weekends. By the end of the summer the Blitz had more or less finished but a German bomber (or parts of it!) crashed in the grounds of Sandroyd one evening while we were out drinking in a local pub!
Volunteered for RAF and attended the selection centre at Oxford University (not sure which college – visits in recent years in no way help me to recognise anything about it). Had a long session with medics to decide if my previous infantile paralysis (Polio) would allow me to be considered for Aircrew. After an interview with four Senior Officers, it was decided that I had passed 'A1' and was 'sworn-in' for deferred service. My actual service in the RAF counted from then. Mum was very upset when I informed her as she was convinced that I would be unfit for any service in the Forces due to my previous medical history and Dad was upset that I had volunteered for the [underlined] RAF [/underlined] because he had already booked me as a nautical apprentice with a post on the Prince Line vessel "Black Prince". I had actually done myself a great favour as the ship was sunk quite early on with the loss of all the crew!
Took part in amateur dramatics at Sandroyd together with others from English, Scottish & Australian Bank (ES&A). Performed in Xmas panto as a character in sketches of the Weston Brothers type. They were very popular Radio characters of the time.
7
[page break]
1942
Early spring, I was called up as U/T Aircrew and reported to Aircrew Receiving Centre (ACRC) at Lords cricket ground and billeted in "Viceroy Court" (one of numerous apartment blocks in Regents Park area). During the first week or so we were kitted out, received inoculations, vaccinations, took night vision tests and attended numerous lectures in various part of the cricket ground. Many of the staff were well known cricketers of the day. Spent about eight or nine weeks here with some odd short periods of leave (weekend passes) so I was able to get home quite easily.
[photograph]
At home in the garden 150 Croydon Rd, Beddington
Posted to RAF Bridgenorth & RAF Ludlow where I helped to build the camps. We lived in tents and were treated like 'dirt'. Most of the time was devoted to learning how to 'skive-off' each evening and get back into camp without being caught! Ludlow was famous for the large number of pubs and we took advantage of this to avoid being seen by the SPs (RAF Police). Fortunately, both postings were quite short lived.
Summer was spent at Initial Training Wing (ITW) Newquay. Billeted in the "Penolver Hotel" on the seafront. I seem to remember it being next door to the "Beresford" (pictures in album). Our Sergeant, called Sgt. Hannah, was very strict but fair and we got on well with him. In the photos I recall many of the faces but I cannot put names to any of them. A certain teaspoon, still in use, came from a little cafe where we had our brief coffee breaks! A glorious summer – spent much time on the beach and in the sea, as well as clay pigeon shooting on the cliffs.
Since I had elected not go to pilot basic training selection but [italics] to train as a navigator [/italics], I remained at Newquay with 2 others while the rest of the course did their 'Tiger Moth' time. We met up again at Heaton Park, Manchester after they had finished their pilot checkouts. Had a miserable time hanging about waiting for next posting. Billeted in a filthy boarding house with a scruffy landlady and every one of the NCOs seemed to make life difficult.
8
[page break]
1943
Early in the year I finally got a posting to Empire Air Training in Canada. We entrained to Greenock (Glasgow) and boarded the Troop ship [italics] Empress of Scotland [/italics].
[photograph]
RMS Empress of Scotland (formerly Empress of Japan)
Hundreds of us were bundled together in tiers of bunks in makeshift accommodation on the port side, fairly well forward on the boat deck. It was a blessing being able to get out into the open quickly as some of the others were down below, almost in the bilges. We spent hours queuing for food but it passed the time quickly. We sailed on our own and had numerous alerts but nothing was seen or heard. Eventually we docked in New York, although we all thought we were going to [underlined] [italics] Halifax! [/italics] [/underlined]
By train up to No. 31 Personnel Depot Moncton (New Brunswick), stopping for nearly a day in sidings in Portland (Maine). People were very hospitable and made us meals and food for the rest of the journey.
It was freezing cold in Moncton but the huts were very warm and I remember barrels of apples at the end of each hut, which were always kept topped up with crisp, juicy, sweet red apples. Although well below zero outside, we never seemed to feel the cold. Time-off was spent in the town of Moncton, mostly in Macdonald's(?) drug store, eating very cheap T-bone steaks and drinking pints of milk. No shortage of food made it a regular paradise after rationing. We also spent hours ten-pin bowling, both in Moncton and in the alley back at camp.
I cannot remember what we did on duty, but do remember coming into contact with a Welsh corporal by the name of Gee who was the most obnoxious individual I have ever come across and who made our life a misery. It was a relief to join the epidemic of Scarlet Fever that swept through the camp. I was quite ill but lucky to find that one of the doctors was the husband of one of the girls that I had worked with at Sandroyd. He helped me when I was fit enough for convalescent leave by suggesting that I didn't go on my own to Montreal but to stay with one of the local families who took in Service people and looked after them. He introduced me to a couple called Tait who lived in Shediac, a place some 50 miles away, near or at the coast. They seemed to like me and 2 days later arrived back to take me home with them. They already had a number of Australian 'Tour Ex' aircrew staying with them, a couple of whom were in a very bad state and were being sent home by way of Canada and America.
[photograph]
The Tait residence was a huge detached property and they had a lovely red setter dog called Terry who took an immediate fancy to me for some reason and was my constant companion for the rest of my stay with them.
The Taits cosseted me right from the start and were most intrigued to find that Mum's maiden name was the same as theirs. They were most concerned when they saw my patched pyjamas and other clothes and really didn't understand when I told them about
9
[page break]
clothes rationing and all the other shortages. They immediately took me shopping to buy a whole set of new clothes and underclothes. Early in my stay they asked if I had ever had oysters and when I said no they immediately took me to a place called Pointe du Cheyne(?), which was 75 miles away up the coast, for an evening meal out. The place specialised in fried oysters and I had a whole plateful of them. They were marvellous and the taste still lingers on even though I have never had them again since. They seemed to think nothing of a 75-mile drive each way just for a meal out. I was introduced to all the inhabitants of Shediac – or so it seemed – and during my stay with them took me all over New Brunswick, visiting all the towns and villages and spent a day in Fredrickton visiting various relatives at the University.
It was a terrible break to have to leave them and get back to real life. One thing however was somewhat sobering and that was the discussions I had with the Australians before they left. I learnt from them what it was really going to be like to go on Bomber operations once training was finished.
Almost as soon as I reported back to camp in Moncton I was posted to No 1 Central Navigation School – Rivers Manitoba. The trip was a 3-day ride on the train and that in itself was a fascinating experience. Eventually I arrived at the town of Brandon after a short stop off in Winnipeg.
No. 76A Navigation Course began almost as soon as I had arrived and lasted from 17th May 1943 to 1st October 1943. After nearly a month of groundwork, I had my first flight in an aeroplane on 5th June 1943. I spent 3 hours 10 minutes in Anson 6882 flown by P/O Davey. [underlined] [italics] I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. [/italics] [/underlined]
[photograph]
76A Navigation Course 17th May – 1st October 1943,
No. 1 Central Navigation School, Rivers Manitoba, Canada
The others on the course were an amazingly good bunch and a number of us used to work and play together in almost perfect harmony. Only three pupils were 'scrubbed', for various reasons, during the course and the list of those completing the course is in my green photo album. Seven of us formed a small group.
Paul Bailey
Ken Waine
Joe Meadows
Doug Holt
Rick Richardson
Don Finlayson
10
[page break]
We were given regular 48-hour passes and the 75 miles on the train to Winnipeg was quite an easy journey. At Eatons, the major department store, we were able to arrange to stay with local people. Nearly all my visits were to a family living in Assiniboine Drive but quite early on Don Finlayson discovered that he had a relation in Winnipeg that he had never heard of before and we spent most of the time at his place, only going back to the others to sleep. I do not remember the name of the people I used to stay with, although I have a vague recollection that their name might be Oliver.
Finlayson's relatives had a youngish daughter and before long all seven of us paired up with other girls. As can be seen from the photo album we enjoyed many happy hours in the Cave Supper Club and danced to the music of Marsh Phimister (Marsh was still around in 1979 when we returned to Winnipeg to visit my cousin Tom Moore4 & his wife Marg!).
THE CAVE SUPPER CLUB
[photograph]
Date SEP 15 1948 No. 9 GIBSON
On one 48-hour pass I travelled to Toronto (or Montreal, I can't remember which) to meet my cousin Tom, whom I had never met before, but still managed to find him amongst the crowds on the Mainline Station. He took me to Hamilton Ontario were [sic] he was billeted. I think we also went to London Ontario but am not certain. He looked after me quite well and we seemed to get on well together, although it was a very short visit before I had to get back to camp.
Although I had never done very well at school, I suddenly discovered that I was just as clever (if not more so) as the others and I began to do well on the course. In the end I managed to finish 2nd on the course and along with 6 others was given an immediate commission as a Pilot Officer whilst all the others were promoted to Sergeant.
About the 5th October I returned to Moncton and almost straight away entrained to Halifax and boarded the Aquatania (or was it the Mauretania?). We sailed without a convoy again but had air cover at both ends with only a small gap in the middle. It was a smooth crossing, in much superior accommodation to that on the journey out. I met a Canadian who, it subsequently turned out, used to work opposite Tom Moore at Ogilvy Mills in Medicine Hat. – Small world!
We landed back at Greenock and I was posted to Harrogate for Officer kitting-out and indoctrination. I stayed at the Queen's Hotel in some luxury and, as there were lots of Civil Servants evacuated to Harrogate, the social life was extremely good. Went to numerous dances and parties including Christmas and New Year.
4Tom Moore (1916-1992) Margaret (nee Rutherford) (1914-1999)
11
[page break]
1944
Posted to No. 1 (O) A.F.U. (Advanced Flying Unit) Wigton, Scotland on or about 10th January and started No. 193 Air Navigators AFU Course.
Towards the end of January I 'went sick' with an undulant fever. Local Medical Officer did not believe me until I got rapidly worse and eventually was transferred to Hospital near Stranraer where Glandular fever was diagnosed. Whilst there, a survivor from a crashed Anson was brought in and all the 'stops' were pulled out to help him survive. Although nearly every bone in his body was broken he gradually rallied and started to make a miraculous recovery. Having recovered from Glandular Fever, I was diagnosed to have a mild leukaemia and started getting massive injections of iron and ate liver until it almost came out of my ears. Walked for miles in the surrounding countryside with some of the other patients and after a while felt fitter than I had for a long time.
I rejoined No. 226 Course on 7th April and finally finished there on 2nd May. I was posted to No. 12 O.T.U. (Operational Training Unit) at a place called Chipping Warden near Banbury. I arrived at Banbury railway station on my own and started enquiring about transport to the RAF Station. I met a Squadron Leader Pilot who informed me that he had already arranged for transport, which would be along in 'about an hour'. We sat and talked and I learned that he was called Nigel Macfarlane (Mac), a Rhodesian, who had already done a 'tour' in Hampdens. He told me that we were both two days late for the start of the course, although through no fault of our own. He seemed to be quite interested in me and my background.
When we arrived on the course, we discovered that most of the others had already had time to choose their own crews and Mac immediately asked me to be his navigator. Together we then looked around for the rest of the crew.
Eventually we got ourselves sorted out and finished up with
Pilot – Squadron Leader Nigel G. Macfarlane
Navigator – Pilot Officer Dennis Moore
Bomb Aimer – Pilot Officer Fred H. Shepherd
Wireless Operator – Sergeant 'Napper' Dennis Evans
Mid Upper Gunner – Sergeant Jimmy Bourke
Rear Gunner – Sergeant 'Nobby' Clarke (655)
The Flight Engineer, Sergeant 'Johnnie' Forster (later to become Pilot Officer), joined us later – after we had left Chipping Warden.
Fred Shepherd wore an 'N' brevet as he had completed a Navigation Course but for some reason had been re-mustered to Bomb Aimer at the end of his course?
The OCU aircraft identification was 'FQ'. All the flying was done in Wellingtons and it is worth noting that one of these – Z1735 – 'S', actually set a record of longevity by operating at this unit from early 1942 until January 1945. We only flew in this aircraft once. During the course both Fred & I were made Flying Officers and the Sergeants promoted to Flight/Sergeant.
We were on an exercise on the night of 5/6th June (D-day), and at the time could not understand why there were so many other aircraft in the sky!
On the 10th July we completed our first Operational flight on what was called a 'Nickel'. We dropped leaflets over Angers in France. The trip was successful and no difficulties other than 'Flak' were encountered.
Much of our flying here was from the 'satellite' airfield of Edgehill which was some distance away and actually on the site of the old battlefield.
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We finished our training about the 15th July, by which time we all seemed to work well together and all the instructors rated Mac very highly.
Posted to No. 1653 HCU (Heavy Conversion Unit) Chedburgh, Suffolk, on or about 28th July after leave. Flying on Stirlings commenced on the 14th August, firstly on 'A' Flight doing mostly circuits and bumps by day & night and then on 'C' & 'D' Flight doing Cross Country, followed by high level bombing practice. During the course we had 2 undercarriage collapses but otherwise the Stirling was quite a pleasant aircraft to fly in.
We did a fair bit of interchange of jobs except that our flight engineer, Johnny Forster had now joined us and he got the major share of actually flying it. I had a short lesson and also a session in the rear turret. It was here that I discovered that I did not feel at all happy looking down. I actually dropped a stick of practice bombs and did very well. On the ground we also did exercises at each other's job and on the gunnery range my '4 sec' burst disintegrated the moving target!
Whilst doing each other's jobs we found out that Mac (the pilot) had attended the Specialist Navigators Course just when the war started (he had come over from Rhodesia and joined the Air Force in 1938). This made three of us who were so-called navigators and it could have presented a problem, particularly as Fred Shepherd rather fancied himself in that role. However, on one trip, Fred started to try and give changes of aircraft heading to Mac from 'pinpoints' that he had observed on the ground without letting me know. Mac had no hesitation in telling the whole crew that, although there were two others who 'at a pinch' could possibly take over, there was only one navigator in the aircraft whilst he was Captain and that was me!! – and he had every faith in my ability to look after all of us as far as the navigation was concerned. This certainly boosted my ego and from then on we all got on famously.
The course was completed on the 4th September and we were quickly posted to No. 3 LFS (Lancaster Finishing School) at Feltwell where we arrived on 7th. Feltwell was a grass airfield with no runways but, nevertheless, we finished our conversion in 4 days and then rushed to No. 218 Squadron at Methwold so that Mac could take over the job of c/o 'A' Flight. We discovered that a few nights previously the Squadron had lost 5 aircraft, one of the crews being the Flight Commander. This was somewhat of a shattering experience to start off with but fortunately our first operation was a relatively easy one, bombing by daylight 'V1' bomb sites at Boulogne. 'Flak' (Anti-Aircraft shells) was quite heavy but there was no fighter activity.
During the rest of September we did two more daylight trips and 1 night trip to Neuss near Dusseldorf. During the early days of Oct. we converted to a form of specialised bombing called 'G.H' – an extension of OBOE. This used a tracking beam and a crossing beam for the release point. On this system the bomb aimer only had to set up the bomb release and I did the actual bombing run and release. The exercises we did proved to be extremely accurate and we regularly dropped practise bombs to within 50 yards from 20,000 feet.
Methwold was built just before the war but had no permanent brick buildings and accommodation was in Nissen huts dispersed in the woods, some over a mile from the Mess, which could only be reached over muddy footpaths. It started to get quite cold in these huts quite early on and scrounging for fuel for the stoves became a major pastime. Barbara Sharp, who used to live five doors from us in Beddington, turned up at Methwold but she did not stay for long. The film 'Journey together' was shot at Methwold and David Tomlinson the actor (of 'Bedknobs & Broomsticks' with Julie Andrews) was on one of the Squadrons. The author – Miles Tripp was a bomb-aimer on the Squadron and his book "The Eighth Passenger" tells of his crew and what happened to them both during and after the war. He talks of one trip taking off at a certain time when we actually took off 1 minute before him on the same operation. My experience and his seemed to differ completely on this particular occasion (see copy of his book obtained 20/01/1994!!).
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During October we completed 2 daylights and 3 night ops and after 1 trip (at night) in November Mac was posted to Mildenhall as Commanding Officer No. 15 (XV) Squadron and promoted to Wing Commander. The next day he sent an aircraft over to fetch us and we then joined the Squadron officially. As the C/O's crew we did less trips than anyone else and as Mac decided to act as a check pilot for the first trip with all new crews, we were asked to fly with one of the Flight Commanders called Flight Lieutenant Pat Percy (known to us as 'Tojo'). This was not a popular move as he was not of the same calibre as Mac but for special trips Mac flew with us and the difference was noticeable by everyone. Tojo was promoted to Squadron Leader in mid-December and we finished the month carrying out 3 daylight and 3 night trips. One of these was as 'Master Bomber' on the Schwammenauel Dam with Mac.
[photograph]
Mildenhall, December 1944
XV Squadron crew, with Lancaster "C" Charlie, ME844
[photograph] [photograph]
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1945
New Year's day opened the month with a 6 hour 5 minute night trip and during the rest of the month a further two night ops and three day trips were completed. On the 14th, returning from Saarbrucken, the East Anglian weather deteriorated so much that all aircraft had to be diverted. We finished up at Predannack in Cornwall and it was an absolute shambles. It is amazing that there were not any collisions as aircraft with very little fuel left tried to get into unknown airfields.
Most of our spare time when 'ops' were not in the offing we used to spend at the Bull at Barton Mills. Mac had his wife Margaret (from Nottingham) and his baby son Ian living there and the whole crew went to keep her company, particularly when Mac himself was not able to be there (see note at end of 1945). He often went with 'Sprog' crews on their first operation, to try and make sure that they were capable of operating on their own. We made many friends from No. 90 Squadron based at Tuddenham, which was also nearby and particularly with a Squadron Leader Pete Dunham and his crew who we subsequently saw blowing up on a daylight operation (see scrapbooks)
Only 2 trips in February (1 day – 1 night) both with Mac, and during this time Johnnie Forster was commissioned and Fred & I took him to London to get kitted out.
About this time I first met Pam. She was going out with Fred and visited him at Mildenhall. For some reason or other we were walking back to camp from the village as a group and Fred chose to go off with somebody else and Pam walked back with me.
Also around about this time I had bought a car and 'passed my test' by driving on leave with 4 passengers down through the centre of London. BAU 62 was a blue Ford saloon named 'EROS' which I bought for £30 at an auction of the effects of a deceased pilot.
Sometime during the month, my sister Joyce came up to visit. She stayed at a small pub quite near the main camp. I have always thought that it was called the George but visits in recent years have failed to find a pub with this name. [italics] (27/05/2014 – Fred Shepherd confirmed that it was "The Bird in Hand" which is just outside the old main gate – Ed) [/italics]
7 Daylight ops during March and mostly with a Canadian bomb-aimer called Tom Butler who stood in for Fred who was deputising for the Bombing Leader. On most of these we led either the Squadron, the Base (No. 32) or the whole Group. A Base was a small group of RAF airfields & 3 Group comprised all the Heavy Bomber Squadrons in East Anglia. All these 'daylights' were flown in quite tight formation – depending on the opposition! To boost moral back at the Squadron, our return over the airfield was always in as tight a formation as possible. On 23rd March we bombed a very precise area on the German side of the Rhine at Wesel (we were the lead aircraft), in preparation for our troops crossing. From all the aircraft bombing, 80 despatched and 77 actually bombed, only one bomb fell outside the perimeter (not us!) and that was as a result of a 'hang up' and not the fault of the crew. In Dudley Saward's authorised biography of "Bomber" Harris, this attack was listed as – 'perhaps the best example of direct support of the Army were the attacks on troop concentrations in Wesel on 23rd March by seventy seven heavies dropping 435.5 tons of bombs immediately prior to the Army launching its crossing of the Rhine and capturing Wesel'. Montgomery wrote to Harris – "My grateful appreciation of the quite magnificent co-operation you have given us. The bombing of Wesel yesterday was a masterpiece and was a decisive factor in making possible our entry into that town before midnight".
At this stage of Bombing Operations in Europe the number of 'Ops' required to complete a 'Tour' changed week by week. At the beginning of the year it was more or less standard at 30 but then it went up, first to 35 then to 40 before coming back down to 35 again in early March. When we went on our 33rd trip on 14th April we still expected to have at least another two to do. It was very much of a pleasant surprise to be told that we had finished as the tour had just been reduced again to 30!! One of the most difficult of trips was always the last with the crew
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so worked up that inevitably things went wrong and the crew failed to return. We were lucky not to have had to go through that trauma. Although so late on in the war, losses were still extremely high, with aircraft being shot down by flak and the more modern German fighters even by rocket aircraft. Losses averaged 5% per trip right up to the end. The end of the European war (VE Day) came on my last day of 'End of Tour' leave and after some celebrations on the way eventually got back to camp to find the mess having a huge party which spread onto the front lawn with fireworks and a colossal bonfire.
Without having much time to think about what was happening, the crew split up and I was posted to Catterick for "Disposal", leaving on the following day. I drove up to Catterick on official petrol coupons and went through the boring process of half choosing and half being told where to go next. At the time it seemed like a good idea to elect for Transport Command to get away from having to stay in Bomber Command and being posted to the Far East in what was known as 'Tiger Force'. I had hoped that I could get on to routes in-and-around Europe!!
After a further leave, when I had to drive on 'acquired' petrol, I was eventually posted to No. 109 Transport OTU Crosby-on-Eden near Carlisle, arriving around the beginning of June. After 4 weeks 'Ground' school – after a false start, I crewed up with:
Pilot – Flying Officer 'Butch' Harris
Signaller – Warrant Officer Ernie Omerod
and flying on DC3 (Dakotas) began on the 7th July and finished on 27th August. On the 1st August the unit was reorganised as 1383 Transport Conversion Unit and it was here that the news of the dropping of the Atom Bombs was announced, as well as the end of the war. Another tremendous party to celebrate.
I was then posted to India! Departed for Morecombe to await transit instructions. Pam came up for few days and we went fishing for Dabs with the others! On 7th October departed for Holmsley South (Hampshire) and the following day we left in a York (MW167) of 246 Squadron for Karachi via Malta, Cairo and Shiebah, arriving on the 10th. Spent a whole month kicking our heels in Mauripur (Karachi) before moving on (see photo album).
On 16th November departed in Sunderland (ML786) for Calcutta. Had a 7 1/2-hour flight, taking-off and landing in the appropriate rivers and enjoying the luxury of a civilian aircraft even though flown by a Wing Commander.
Arrived on 52 Squadron at Dum Dum, Calcutta and almost immediately started route flying in Dakotas. Places visited:
Akyab
Bangkok
Bombay
Canton
Chakulia
Chittagong
Comilla
Hong Kong
Meiktila
Nagpur
Rangoon
Saigon
Although now 3 months since the war finished, there were still the last of the Japanese soldiers (now prisoners) working at various places we flew to and there was much evidence of the utter destruction caused by their occupation. Most of our flights were to ferry the civil and military occupation forces back and forth and even to the more remote areas.
Christmas Eve and Christmas Day were spent on a round trip to Rangoon via Meiktila where our Xmas Dinner was a bacon 'sarni' (we actually had flown in the bacon!)
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1946
New Year's day was spent en-route to Bombay having only returned the night before from Rangoon again. During the month we flew some 71 hours.
Until 5th May we flew with only very short breaks in between and in one month (March) flew 106 hours. It was in March when we had to divert whilst flying over Hainan Island and the only option open to us was to go to Canton (China). We became the first British aircraft to land there since the beginning of the war. As I was the senior British Officer on board the aircraft, the British Consul would only talk to me even though I was not Captain of the aircraft. He was virtually useless and was going to try and arrange for various families to accommodate us in ones and two? The American Consul offered to put everyone up in his Headquarters and I agreed to this much to the annoyance of the British bloke (I seem to remember his name was HALL). Within a few minutes everything was arranged and all 30 odd people allocated a bed, even though somewhat crowded. The crew adjourned to the bar and, as the song 'Rum & Coca-Cola' was all the rage at the time, that's what we decided to have. It slid down very easily and after eating out at a local Chinese Café we eventually returned rather noisily, tripping over various passengers beds in the process. In the morning 7 of the passengers refused to fly with us and decided to return to Hong-Kong by boat. We did the trip in a matter of minutes whilst they took nearly the whole day. To give them their due, when we met up again in Hong-Kong, their spokesman apologised to us and admitted that we knew our own job better than they thought we did and then he bought us all a further round of 'Rum & Coke'.
Soon after this episode we were allocated a very young 2nd pilot called Terry Glover, who ousted me from my usual position in the right-hand seat. After a very scary let-down into Hong-Kong (letting down well out to sea and flying very low level over the water and between the numerous islands) we were guided by our new pilot into a dead-end which was not very popular with 'Butch', who immediately climbed very rapidly, put me back in the right-hand seat and then did a smart 180 before doing another letdown. This time I was lucky enough to find the right way through the islands and from then on I always sat in the front unless the conditions were CAVU (Clear and Visibility unlimited). In 1946 Kaitak airfield was a very different airfield compared to today. The main runway was usually only used from one end (from seaward) as a 1200ft. mountain blocked the other end. It was just possible to land the other way by just scraping the top of the 'Hill' and cutting back on everything, dropping like a stone then pulling out at the last moment!! We did it a number of times but only when the weather was good and even then it was quite exciting. After the war the whole of the mountain was removed and dumped in the sea at the other end of the runway, thus extending the runway considerably. Photos in the brown embossed album just about show this hill. More pictures in the album show various other views and other places. We stayed in a transit 'Hotel' called the 'Arlington' and did a great deal of sightseeing. Bearing in mind that the colony had only just been recovered from the Japanese, there was plenty to see and do. A suite in the Peninsular Hotel (the largest at the time) had been occupied by the Japanese General commanding the colony and was fitted out to remind him of home and even had a little stream running through the bedroom!!
One of the delights of our stays in Hong-Kong was the chance to be able to drink fresh cold milk and we always made a beeline for the local Milk-Bar as soon as we arrived and indulged in the luxury of a long cold pint!! Food also seemed plentiful and we fed well in one or the other of a Russian Café on the mainland, which was called "Timoschenko's" or the "Paris Grille" over on Kowloon.
Our stops in Saigon were also not without their drama as well as relaxation. The French always resented our having taken over from them and a continuous subtle 'infighting' was always taking place. The airfield was run by a joint-force and both the French and British Flags flew side by side on separate flagpoles over the airfield Control Tower. The British troops started one night by taking the French pole down and sawing a foot off the end before putting it back up so that their flag was slightly lower than ours. Apparently it took them a long time to notice but when they did, they reciprocated. Eventually new flagpoles were required and these
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got progressively longer and longer. One evening we arrived to discover the French very much up in arms because the following day their General Leclerc was coming on an inspection visit and they had caught our chaps taking their flag away altogether. As a result we were prevented from parking our aircraft in its usual position and were made to place it in part of a semi circle of aircraft on the tarmac in front of the Control Tower. We told them that we needed to leave at our usual time the following morning (around 8.30 to 9.00) to give us plenty of time in daylight for the 6 1/2-hour flight to Hong-Kong. They chose to ignore us and insisted we park where they told us, despite our protests. When we arrived early the next morning from our hotel in the town, French troops and a large band were already drawn up inside the semi circle, awaiting the arrival of General Leclerc. We carried out our normal preparations, including starting up the engines and testing them out! This infuriated the French and when we went back into the Control Tower for Met. and Flight Clearance briefing, they threatened to arrest us. The British staff winked, gave us a full briefing, with both Met. and the arrival times of visiting dignitaries, and assured us that they would give us taxi and take-off clearance. Walking casually through the French ranks, we informed one of the officers that they would need to move whilst we taxied out but nobody moved. We then decided that it was time to go, so started up our engines again and called for taxi clearance. We got no reply so started to move forward very slowly. The troops decided to give us room to get through and moved aside, but as we turned it was necessary to rev up the port engine and this we did somewhat more enthusiastically than usual. When we managed to look back the bandsmen were chasing their sheet music all over the airfield, so we gave an extra blast just to complete the havoc. As we did so the controller came through advising us to take off immediately and clear the area. Once airborne, the British controller bid us 'good-day' and thanked us for our 'co-operation' and we could hear the glee in his voice. Almost immediately we were formatted upon by 4 Free French Spitfires and we had visions of them shooting us down. However, they stayed with us for nearly 10 minutes before breaking away sharply and going back the way we had come. We found out on the return visit that they thought we were the General's aircraft and that the General's aircraft had landed before they got back. Apparently he was NOT amused to have to arrive without an escort and the Band still not fully reformed!!
On top of all this there were Dacoits and Bandits operating in the area, and there were gunfights around the airfield and Saigon on a number of occasions. Despite all this we enjoyed our leisure in Saigon, the French Club 'Ciercle Sportif' (see Photos).
About this time, I had applied for a job with BOAC through Mr. Robson who was something to do with the Ministry of Transport. I had been given a very good character assessment by our Squadron Commander (see his remarks in my Log-Book) and had hoped that the experience of 'route' flying would stand me in good stead.
In mid May we were given 2 weeks leave and we decided to find the coolest spot we could, so decided to visit Darjeeling. We went by train to a place called Siliguri, which is at the base of the Himalayas. By the time we got there we were hotter than ever and did not relish another train ride up to Darjeeling. However, we joined a miniature train which slowly but surely wound its way up the mountains and it got progressively cooler all the time. When it got near to the top it was going round and round like a corkscrew and in many places it was possible to step off the train, as it was moving very slowly, and then walk up a few steps to meet the line again and wait for the train to come past again. There is a picture of this in the photo album and this little railway is in fact quite famous. By the time we reached Darjeeling I was freezing cold and we had to hang about whilst accommodation was arranged for us. I remember flopping down on a bed in a dingy "guest house" and the next thing I remembered was waking up in the local Forces Hospital. It seemed that I had gone down with a severe bout of flu and some other chest bug as well. I was extremely well looked after in this hospital and there were a number of Sikh and Ghurka officers in the place as well. They all had serious complaints of some sort but as I got better they were a good crowd to be with. Towards the end of the 14 days leave, the others that I had come up to Darjeeling with departed back to Calcutta and I was given an indefinite extension, with sick leave on top. Before leaving the hospital, I was taken by the others to visit the highest racecourse in the world. It was at a place called Lebong and was at 14,000 feet. It was about the size of a large football ground and spent most of the time in
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cloud. Betting was a hazardous affair, as it was not unknown for the horses to disappear into cloud on the far side of the curse, only to re-appear in a completely different order when they came back into view! However, it was very pleasant to be able to sit in a reserved box, rather like the Royal Box at Epsom, drinking our cool drinks and placing a bet when the mood took us. We never ever won anything but nevertheless didn't lose much either. One morning, very early, a whole gang of us hired horses and rode the 15 miles or so to a place called Tiger Hill where we hoped to witness sunrise over Everest. We did see Everest but the sunrise was not quite where we had thought it should be. It was a magnificent sight, however, and well worth the effort to get there. The ride back was less pleasant and we all finished up vowing never to ride a horse again. Needless to say I never have.
One of the patients from the Hospital was a chap called Captain Weston who had a very rare skin complaint which was caused by the heat and humidity of the climate on the plains. His skin peeled off in layers and as a result he nearly died. It was only in the cool of the hills that his skin was able to grow again but as soon as the Medics tried to get him back home the whole process started again. Apparently on one occasion they got him as far as Calcutta ready to catch a plane out but unfortunately the aircraft takeoff was delayed and they had to rush him back to Darjeeling having already lost nearly the whole of his skin again and once again seriously ill. I have often wondered what ever happened to him when I left.
So many people out in India and the Far East suffered from skin problems as well as the dysentery types of disease. Apart from the time in Darjeeling I cannot remember being free from some form of diarrhoea varying from slight to chronic as well as 'Prickly Heat'. We all took Malarial prevention tablets called Mepachrine, which gave a yellowy tinge to the skin. Having the 'Trots' while flying was somewhat of a problem in itself. The Dakota only had one toilet and with 35 odd passengers most of whom suffered from the same problem made things somewhat complicated!! The prickly heat was no respecter of rank and once we had an Air Commodore on board who asked if he could come up front so that he could take his Bush Jacket off and get some cold air to his body. I had never before seen anyone who was so badly affected. His whole body was one mass of it and most was infected through scratching. We opened the side windows for him and after about an hour's flying he got some slight relief. He was most grateful to us and thanked us profusely before going back to the cabin to exercise his authority over the more junior members of his party. The Medics had no cures for any of these problems in those days although they could bring some help to the dysentery sufferers.
I was very reluctant to leave the cool of Darjeeling but eventually had to and took a mad taxi ride down through the tea plantations to the railway at Siliguri and almost finished up with a heart attack as the driver was desperate to show off his skill at negotiating hairpin bends on two wheels and only one hand on the steering. The road drops from about 12,000 feet to sea level in something like 15 miles and did not seem to go more than a few hundred yards without at least one hairpin to turn back on itself. The heat at sea level hit me like an oven and the train ride back to Calcutta was enough to make me swear never to complain about being too cold again. When you are cold at least you can find some way of keeping warm but there was absolutely no way out there that you could cool off when you were too hot.
Back in Calcutta the Monsoon had started with a vengeance but I was immediately informed that I was on the next 'demob' contingent and also that I had been offered a job as Navigator with BOAC as soon as I was 'demobbed'. Very soon after I was on the train again, en-route to Bombay. This took 3 days and we played cards nearly the whole time. I swore that I would never play 'Solo' again after that. It was sweltering hot the whole time and we had all the windows open to catch the air from the movement of the train but most of the time we just got the smoke and smuts from the engine. Food was only available at each of the many stops and since the train was only carrying troops it was a mad rush each time and more often than not we had to scramble back onto the train as it started to pull out of the station without having got anything.
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At Bombay we waited in the transit camp at WORLI until our turn came. After about two weeks we finally boarded the SS Samaria, a small passenger boat, which we were told would take 13-14 days to reach home. As we sailed out of the harbour a large liner steamed in and we were told that it would embark its passengers and sail again within 12 hours and only take 7 days to get home. Sure enough the following day we were galled to see it steaming passed [sic] us with all the troops on her decks jeering at us as they shot past. We were absolutely livid at the time and as everyone was anxious to get home as soon as possible we all felt hard done by. However, we heard later that the liner had broken down and had turned round and gone back to Bombay during the night. Like the tortoise and the hare the laugh was on us as we chugged slowly but surely and arrived in Liverpool after 12 days.
After disembarking we were quickly put through the 'demob' procedure including handing in our air force kit, medicals and being issued with civilian clothes and a rail warrant home and with the minimum of fuss we caught the train to London. All this happened within 24 hours of disembarking and, similarly quickly, arrangements were made for our Wedding on 19th October at St. Andrews church Leytonstone. After a Honeymoon in Hastings I was due to start with BOAC at the beginning of November. However, following a visit to my old civilian company to tell them that I did not want my old job back, I was introduced to Air Commodore Powell who was running SILVER CITY AIRWAYS and decided to join them instead, which I did on 5th November. On the 8th I was navigating an Avro Lancastrian G-AHBW (City of London) from London Heathrow to Nairobi Eastleigh, Captained by Ex-Wing Commander Johnny Sauvage DSO & bar, DFC, arriving back to the 4 huts of Heathrow on the 24th. During December we did 3 trips to Malta and back, one of them in the then record time of 4 hours 55 minutes (see cutting from the Malta Times). Thus ended a very eventful Year.
[photograph]
Sliver [sic] City Airways – December 1946
Johnny Sauvage and crew with Lancastrian G-AHBW “City of London”
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1947
At the end of my RAF Transport Command Course at Crosby on Eden in 1945, I had been
awarded a certificate which was recognised by the Department of Civil Aviation. Also in February 1946 I had been awarded a Second Class Navigation Warrant number 422, which was also recognised by the D of CA. Whilst working in the office of Silver City Airways (1 Great Cumberland Place, London), I was able to study the additional subjects required to obtain a Civil Aircraft Navigator's Licence. I passed all except [underlined] signalling [/underlined] and re-took this and one other subject to obtain full First Class Civil Licence in May. After another full aircrew medical, licence number 2116 was issued on 7th June 1947.
On 13th June I started flying again with Captain Storm-Clark in G-AHBV "City of Canberra" to Verona. After a further 2 months in their office (during which time Terry was born, we moved from 63 Fladgate Road, Leytonstone, to38 Warham Road, South Croydon, as well as attending a XV Squadron reunion at the Holborn Restaurant on 22nd August), I joined up with Captain R. C. "Hoppy" Hopkins as his navigator on a VIP Dakota G-AJAV. This aircraft was very luxuriously fitted out, with only 6 seats and very superior accommodation. Hoppy immediately 'promoted' me to 'pupil pilot under instruction' and I spent most of my flying time with him sitting in the second pilot's seat, often on my own, while he chatted with the passengers. We flew to France, Belgium, Germany, Portugal and Iceland, as well as locally. I was very disappointed when the aircraft was chartered to fly Churchill out to Marrakesh and I was taken out of the crew. Another pilot took my place to act as formal second pilot/navigator. Hoppy was very upset particularly as the new chap was not a very experienced pilot and had never previously acted as navigator. He had long arguments with the MD of the company (Air Commodore Powell) expressing the opinion that he 'would rather fly with an experienced navigator who at a pinch could fly the aircraft than fly with a not very experienced pilot who, at a pinch, might possibly be able to navigate the aircraft'. Unfortunately the MD would not give way and blamed the charterers, who had insisted on there being two qualified pilots on board and the firm could not afford to have a crew of four (excluding stewards etc.).
In the event I was sent to Belfast to pick up a crew to ferry a Sandringham flying-boat to Buenos Aires. The pilot was called 'Pappy' Carreras (because of his age) and we got on famously together. As well as navigator I was 'promoted' to become 'Mooring Officer', which meant that I stood in the bows to slip the mooring before take-off and had to attempt to catch the mooring buoy with a boat-hook on landing. I had thought that slipping the mooring would be very simple but more often than not it was impossible to do as the aircraft was pulling against the tide and the loop would not come off without the engines being revved hard to take up the slack. Often we surged forward so quickly that I did not have time to get the loop off before we were passing the buoy – still attached to it. Mooring after landing was also just as tricky and I lost a number of boat-hooks before I finally mastered the technique!!
On the way we ate and slept in the 'boat' as the accommodation and cooking facilities were superb. On the leg between Dakar (West Africa) and Natal (Brazil), Pappy commented that although he had done the crossing a number of times, he had never seen Saint Paul's rocks. I gaily said that this time we would see them, not realising how small they were in the wide expanse of ocean. He immediately took me up on it and some 8 hours later (the crossing took 10 hours 20 minutes) was more than astonished when I suggested that if the others were to look out of the starboard windows they might see the rocks in about 5 minutes time. More by pure luck than anything to do with me, we passed them some 6 minutes later about 1/2 mile away. From then on I could do no wrong!!
Pappy had flown during the Spanish Civil War in 1936 but unfortunately for him – on the wrong side – so that he was no longer able to go home. His flying with F.A.M.A. (Flota Aerea Merchante Argentina) meant that he had to be very careful not to ever get diverted to Spain.
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Christmas day was spent in Buenos Aires and I was able to buy some presents there that I could not get at home. (A Tri-ang bus (No. 15) and Xmas Decorations – some of which are still in use today!!) We arrived back in London on New Years Eve (without Pappy who of course normally operated from B.A.)
As a result of my various trips abroad I did not spend much time at home, although when I did, I usually was able to have plenty of time-off from work.
Sometime round about October, Terry had gone into Great Ormond St. Hospital to have a growth removed from his neck. It was more difficult to remove than had originally been thought and when he was able to come home he became very ill with Gastro Enteritis and was taken to the Mayday Hospital in Croydon. He was desperately ill to start off with and took a long time to recover.
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1948
Worked mostly in the office until April, having attended a 52 Squadron Reunion at the Waldorf Hotel on 20th February when, on 8th April, I ferried a MOSQUITO out of Turkey via Jersey & Rome landing at IZMIR. Had trouble with Turkish Customs over three wooden deer bought in Rome. They could not seem to understand way anyone should want to buy such things! An insight into to [sic] the mentality of the Turks we came into contact with is highlighted by the fact that the Turkish government had purchased 100 odd SPITFIRES and a similar number of 'Mossies'. The deliveries were almost complete by the time we took ours out there but they only had managed to have one Mosquito & two Spits' remaining serviceable by that time. The story goes that one Spitfire XI was delivered one evening and the pilot handed it over to the ground crew asking if there was anything they wanted to know about it. During the night it rained hard and when they were getting it ready for a test flight they discovered that the cockpit had a pool of water in it. To cover up the fact that the cockpit hood had been left open in the rain, one bright spark took his drill with the biggest bit that he could find and bored a series of holes in the floor and to let the water drain out!! The Turkish pilot duly took off but came back in after a fairly short flight and refused to sign the acceptance certificate because the aircraft would not pressurise. Apparently the Spitfire XI was one of the first aircraft to have cockpit pressurisation!!!
In May we went to Canada to pick up a Dakota which had just been converted for a company in South Africa. I stayed in Montreal whilst the rest of the crew went down into the States to pick it up. At the time I thought the whole set-up seemed strange but the fact that aircraft were being flown illegally into Israel at the time never occurred to me. Eventually we set off from Montreal to Newfoundland but I didn't prepare properly and we wandered miles off course and I was unable to get a pinpoint fix because I could not recognise any ground feature. Since I had been sitting in the second pilot's seat I eventually decided to go back and try to fathom out why we were 'lost'. After a long period I suddenly realised what I had done wrong – I had borrowed a Canadian map that had the various airline tracks marked on and along the side were the courses to steer. What I had not noticed was that they were magnetic and not [underlined] true [/underlined] bearings. I had applied a correction for the wind and applied variation as usual to arrive at the course for the pilot to steer. As variation in that part of the world was something like 30 degrees, we had in fact been flying 30 degrees off course!! Once I had sussed this out I was soon able to recognise where we were and to start pointing us back in the right direction. Sighs of relief all round!! If we had had some decent radio equipment aboard it would not have been so bad but the aircraft was stripped right down to bare essentials – In retrospect another odd thing.
When we landed at GANDER my preparation was suddenly very much more thorough, the next leg being across the Atlantic. With the fuel that we could carry there were three choices of route bearing in mind the winds that could be expected in the weather systems that existed. First, to head straight across to Ireland and make for Shannon – this was ruled-out as there would be barely enough fuel to do it. Second, to go southwards to the Azores. This was the best for fuel, wind & weather but without radio navigation aids was rather risky – if we missed our landfall there was nowhere to divert to within range of the fuel remaining (if any!). Third, to head for Iceland, which was much the nearest. Unfortunately, with the low-pressure system to the north, the winds would be headwind and very strong. This would again leave us very short of fuel and, as well as this, the landing conditions forecast were not very good. As a result of our discussions we decided that unless we waited a couple of days for the weather to improve, we should consider a fourth possibility of taking the short leg to Greenland, refuelling and then heading for Iceland the following day. This would only, so we thought, take one more day and would allow us to assess the fuel situation when approaching Iceland and perhaps carry on direct to Scotland and, in fact, save us time. This we finally decided to do and although we were unable to get clearance due to radio interference, the controller assured us that it would be alright as he would radio through later on whilst we were on our way. After a very frightening flight to Bluey West One, up a long fiord, we arrived only to be refused landing permission as the flight had not been cleared. Since there was no way we could get back to Gander and there were no other diversions they eventually agreed to let us land. When we did
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the aircraft was surrounded with soldiers and we were told that we would be interned until clearance could be obtained from Washington because of the Israeli situation!!
So there we sat for 7 days whilst the powers-that-be decided what to do with us. We had all bought loads of food to bring home as meat was still rationed and other foodstuffs were in short supply. We had a small fridge on board the aircraft but they would not allow us to run one engine to keep it cold and they would not store it for us. There we were, surrounded by huge Glaciers, whilst all our 'loot' went slowly off. In the end we had to dump nearly all of it. I got sunburned sitting on the nearest glacier and this did little to improve our tempers. Eventually on the 7th day we were allowed to file a flight plan to Weeks (Iceland) and we took off at 22.45 that night. At that time of year it was still almost broad daylight and we landed and refuelled in Iceland, at night but still light enough to see. Two hours later we were off again and landed at Prestwick after a 5hr 40min flight.
After this I was transferred back to flying with Hoppy but in a Bristol Wayfarer (freighter) this time. The first trip was to Karachi via all the short legs possible. We were delayed in Nicosia whilst a new propeller was sent out and we helped the engineer to change it. There was no help forthcoming from the locals (civilian & RAF) although I cannot remember why. This took 7 days and then we were delayed for a further 9 days by the Iraqi Government, so that the whole trip had taken 24 days. It was about the time of Partition in India and the whole of the region was in turmoil. I met a chap that I knew well who was running some form of charter company out there, who offered me a job on the spot, at a ludicrously high salary, if I would join him the same day. The offer was so attractive that I was sorely tempted but I did not want to break my contract with Silver City and leave Hoppy in the lurch. I suspected that the job was either gun running or illegal transport of refugees, so in the end I turned it down. I was to learn later, that the day after we left he tried to take off from Karachi and the plane was so grossly overloaded in the tail that it stalled just after becoming airborne and all aboard were killed outright. As we suspected the cargo was found to be arms and ammunition!!
The next trip was out to Iraq on charter to IPC (Iraqi Petroleum Company) and we flogged up and down the oil pipelines. Having been stuck in Baghdad last trip we had all suffered from the lack of liquid refreshment (alcohol banned and water somewhat 'iffy'), so I bought two bottles of orange squash in Malta to take with us. When I opened my case in Baghdad I discovered a somewhat wet and sticky mess where one of the bottle tops had come loose. Just about everything was covered in juice but it was not until we got to Bahrein that I was able to get everything washed and the case swilled out! It was lucky that we stayed there an extra day or else I would have had to bring the whole soggy mess back home with me. As it was the case was never the same again, even when I relined the inside with brown paper. Terry had the case for a number of years and finally gave it back to me in 1991!
At the end of September I, along with a number of other navigators, was made redundant and then I started my first experience of having to hunt for a job to keep the family fed!! I applied for a job with Flota Aerea Merchante Argentina and, along with another navigator from Silver City called Ross Plews, was called for an interview in their offices in the West-End. We were horrified to see a crowd of 20 or 30 people waiting and spilling out on to the pavement outside. We debated what to do and had decided that, as we were almost the last ones there, it was not worthwhile waiting. We were just about to walk away, when who should try to push past us than Pappy Carreras, who immediately asked me what the crowd was about. When we explained her said, "Wait there while I check in". This we did and within minutes we were called to the front of the queue, much to the disgust of most of the others, and both of us went into for interview to discover Pappy sitting at the long desk with three other officials and I was introduced to the others by him. He then said, "this is the chap I have flown with down to BA and he is the one I would choose without seeing any of the others. If his friend is as good as him we may as well take him on as well – has anyone any objections? – No! – Good! – That's it then! – Let's send all the others away. Welcome to FAMA Dennis – You are hired”.
That's how I came to be flying on an Argentinean York, en-route to Buenos Aires in the first week of November. We were delayed in Natal for three days whilst an engine fault was
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corrected and I got badly sunburned whilst swimming in the sea when there was no shade. Having arrived in Buenos Aires we were met with welcoming arms and I started to look around for somewhere to live but very shortly after a new decree was issued by Eva Peron (she was the power behind throne!) limiting the number of non-nationals working in the country. As FAMA was 75% British, 15% German and the rest Argentinean, this caused immediate problems and, since we were the last to arrive, we were scheduled as the first to go. I was offered the opportunity to navigate a force of Lincolns as a show of strength over the 'Malvinas', provided I gave up my British nationality and took on Argentine citizenship. This I refused to do and so started a week of negotiations to collect some form of compensation and what was already due to me. The expression 'mañana' really came into play and it took all our wits to find someone high enough in the organisation who had the power to do something about our plight. They, in their turn, did everything they could to beat down our demands. Once again it was Pappy Carreras who came to our rescue and we eventually got a flight back with Pappy (see 'Crossing the Line' certificate) landing back in London on the 3rd of December. We came via Madrid and Pappy had been given permission for the very first time to re-enter Spain. Even then he decided to stay in the Airport – just in case.
Once I got back I was quite surprised to get a number of phone calls from various firms offering me a job and I was able to pick and choose, finally agreeing to start at the beginning of the New Year with Flight Refuelling, the firm founded in 1934 by Sir Alan Cobham to investigate the use of air refuelling, and who's pioneering system is still in use today. The BERLIN AIRLIFT was under way and all the Charter firms were fighting for the work that it generated.
[logo] Berlin Airlift [emblem]
[drawing]
[inserted] TX 276/1281 [/inserted]
AVRO LANCASTRIAN – FLIGHT REFUELLING LTD
47403
On 23 June 1948, the Soviet forces occupying the eastern part of Germany blockaded all rail, road and waterway supply routes from the Allied Western Occupation Zones in Berlin. With less than one month’s supply of food and fuel, the prospects for the two and a half million Berliners looked bleak. Only three severely restricted air routes remained as a lifeline between the besieged city and the western world. The Allies responded immediately with a miracle of logistics – The Berlin Airlift. Codenamed Operation Vittles by the USAF, and Operation Plainfare by the RAF, over a period of 11 months Allied aircraft made thousands of flights into the cramped airspace of Berlin and succeeded in supplying everything the city needed. Every available aircraft from RAF Transport Command was in service, as well as hundreds of USAF aircraft and even civil charter firms were called upon to supplement the effort. The operation became so skilled that the Soviet Command eventually realised that they had failed and on 12 May 1949 the blockade was finally lifted.
Avro Lancastrian G-AGWI represents an aircraft which was originally delivered to British South American Airways (BSAA) at Heathrow in January 1946. The aircraft was registered to the Ministry of Civil Aviation for a short period in 1948 before being sold to Flight Refuelling in January 1949. The aircraft was then allotted fleet no. Tanker 26 and flew 226 sorties on the Berlin Airlift.
[inserted] I FLEW IN 13 OF THEM [/inserted] [diagram]
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1949
I report to Flight Refuelling at Tarrant Rushton and am crewed up with a very experienced ex-Air Lingus pilot. It was not until later that I was to discover that he had been sacked from them due to being drunk in flight! After an air test we departed in a Lancastrian for Wuntsdorf just outside Hanover on 13th January. The airfield was RAF and being used by them to fly Yorks on the airlift. It was very crowded with both aircraft and people and we were billeted in a small place called Bad Nenndorf about 10 miles away. There was a reasonable sized Hotel where all Flight Refuelling crews were accommodated. The following day we did two trips into Gatow carrying PETROL.
B.T. O'reilly was the name of the pilot and he became somewhat of a legend on the lift. However he was not a very reliable pilot when sober and, although he boasted that he could land the aircraft better 'on a sea of gin' than any other time, sometimes he was positively dangerous. On one occasion whilst flying into Gatow, I saw him climb out of his seat and then push past me and go to the back of the aircraft. I thought it would be a good idea to go forward and keep an eye on the instruments to make sure 'George' was doing its job properly. To my consternation, I saw that the aircraft was trimmed into a shallow dive (perhaps to counter his moving to the toilet at the rear of the aircraft?) and there was no sign of him returning back to his seat. When we descended below 1,000 feet I decided to get into his seat and was absolutely astounded to discover that the autopilot was not even engaged. I climbed it back up to the proper altitude and called the wireless operator to go and look for 'BT'. He reported back to say that 'BT' was 'out cold' on one of the seats at the back and he could not get him to register that he was needed! At this point we were committed to carry on towards Gatow as we were in the air corridor in the Russian Zone, so I decided that I would make up some story to over fly Gatow and hope that by the time we had got back to Wuntsdorf 'BT' might have surfaced. In the event, just as we approached the Beacon to start letting down to land, 'BT' pushed up to the front and demanded to know why I was in the pilot's seat. We swapped over and I pointed out that he had not put 'George' in when he went down the back. His reaction was happily to say, "these aircraft fly themselves!!" and then carried on to make a perfect landing. I was must relieved when I was asked to take an aircraft back to Tarrant Rushton with another pilot and never had to fly with him again. I was crewed up with a better chap on our return to Germany.
At the end of April we moved to Hamburg and started flying into Tegel instead of Gatow. In June I was allocated yet another pilot who was very young and inexperienced and I was not over happy with him either. When we were withdrawn from the airlift in mid-July, I had completed 89 flights back and forth to Berlin and also carried out a number of ferrying flights to Tarrant Rushton. (See Lecture Notes and 50th Anniversary Celebrations 1999)
[photograph]
With Col. Gail S. Halvorsen – "The chocolate pilot"
Berlin Airlift 50th Anniversary, Berlin 1999
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Two books fully detail the Berlin airlift and the part played by the civil participants (they have been suitably annotated). The one by Robert Rodrigo is the better of the two.
The end of the airlift deposited hundreds of aircrew (many of whom had only just come back into flying for the good money) on to the job market and I was unable to find another flying post. Thus ended my civil flying career.
After flying for so long, finding an ordinary job where my abilities would be of some use and would be recognized by prospective employers, was very difficult. One day I saw a friend from schooldays called Peter Filldew whom I had met at Mildenhall during the war, where he was the orderly-room clerk. He suggested he might be able to get me a job with his firm of Estate Agents (Fielder & Partners) in South Croydon. He obviously gave me a glowing recommendation as my interview was quite short, and I was offered a job as a Negotiator with a very low salary but very good commission on completion of any property that I obtained for their books or was instrumental in selling. The work was very hard and I had to spend long and unsociable hours including Saturdays & Sundays but I managed reasonably well once I gained the necessary confidence.
Soon afterwards we moved house to 248 Croydon Road and this stretched our resources to almost breaking point. The car, BAU 62, which I had bought during the war, had to go and I only managed to get £5 for it and it almost broke my heart to see it being driven away. The bungalow cost something like £1,200 and I got somewhat into debt to raise even the 10% and buying fees. Everything was based on my getting the commission on sales that I thought I should be able to earn. 1949 ended with me still working for Fielder.
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1950
One day at Fielder's, I overheard the receptionist speaking on the phone to someone called Macfarlane and casually asked what were his initials. On being told that they were N.G., I asked to speak to him and asked if he recognised my voice which, after a short pause, he did and we immediately arranged to meet. This caused uproar from the sales manager called Chillcot, who insisted that Mac was already one of [italics] his [/italics] clients and I was not to be allowed to deal with him. All my explanations fell on deaf ears and I had to phone from home to explain this to Mac. He agreed to phone up and cancel the appointment we had made and say that he was not interested anymore. We arranged to meet one lunchtime and go home to our bungalow. I then told the Sales Manager that through his stupidity we had lost a good client and this started an antagonism between us.
The meeting with Mac was quite an event and he suggested that I should re-apply to come back into the RAF and he would back my application if he could. He was still a Wing Commander but holding a post at the Air Ministry and he thought he should be able to pull a few strings.
As a result of this meeting I decided to apply and, after a long wait, was called for interview by a panel, who seemed to feel that wartime service was not a good recommendation for a peacetime commission and they did not even listen to what I had done subsequently. After a further long wait I received a letter addressed to Flight Lieutenat [sic] D. Moore informing me that they were unable to offer me a commission but they would be prepared to let me return as 'NAV 2' (which was the same as Sgt.) As much as I would have dearly loved to have got back into the Service, my pride would not let me accept such a reduction in rank and I therefore wrote back straight away telling them what I thought of their offer.
Working for Chilcott became very difficult and it was obvious that things would come to a head soon. Just when I was expecting to start collecting my first big commissions I was told that I was no good at the job and 'fired'. They would only pay me up until the last day at the basic rate, and no commission money. I appealed to Fielder but he was obviously being influenced by his sales manager and would not help me.
On the job market again, I could only get menial jobs, first as a temp in what then equated to the DHSS issuing new National Insurance Cards and then a more permanent job in the Gas Company working in their costing department. My job was to cost out all the job sheets for the week from the job rates for the various jobs and individuals. This job was running weeks behind when I joined and it did not take long before I was able to catch up and sit waiting for the current week's work dockets to arrive. When the head of my section saw this he 'warned me off' and checked every item of my work so that we looked as though we were still working weeks behind time again. This got very frustrating and I started to look around for another job.
Through the good offices of the Officers' Association I was passed a number of job openings and eventually was interviewed by a firm of grocery distributors called Harvey Bradfield & Toyer. They wanted a salesman to help introduce a Milton's product called Deosan to cafés & restaurants as a means of getting to be their suppliers for groceries as well. I was given the whole of South London to canvas and had to do it all by 'cold selling' and without the use of any transport of my own. Fortunately I made my number with the Public Health Office and frequently got called by them to visit establishments that they had found to be 'unhealthy' and I was able to introduce 'The Deosan method of food hygiene' to them quite easily. I found that the standard of cleanliness in most places I visited to be almost non-existent and the large 'posh' Hotels were the worst. I found this job quite interesting but although I did not feel I was doing a very good job of it, the firm seemed quite happy with my work.
1950 ended with me still trudging around south London and hardly making enough money to live on. Christine had been born on May 28th and this did not make things any easier.
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1951
At the beginning of the year I was still working for H.B.T. and being called-on to visit various places in the South London Area. I asked for a special visit to the Head Office to discuss my work with my boss, who still seemed quite happy with what I was doing but made no effort to increase my wages. I do not remember exactly what I actually earned each week but it was round about £50 per month.
During the last week in March I was in Croydon on a visit and decided to call again on my friend in the Recruiting Office, and here I was asked if I had thought about applying to rejoin the RAF. When I explained about having applied once already and had only been offered 'Master Aircrew' which I had turned down, the Senior Recruiting Officer asked if I would mind if he phoned Air Ministry to find out what the latest situation was. I was quite happy for him to do this and did not expect anything to come of it. It was quite a surprise when he phoned me the next day to say that if I were to apply again I would be given every consideration, so I got him to help me fill in the necessary forms which he duly sent in. It was only a few days later that I was called for interview at the Air Ministry and I went with a totally different attitude to the previous time. When asked the first question which inevitably was 'Why do you want to rejoin the RAF' I decided to take the offensive and replied 'I am not sure if I do – I want you to convince me that I should'. From this point on I could do no wrong.
A greater part of the interview came from a Group Captain on the panel who kept asking me questions about the Argentine and seemed genuinely interested in the answers that I gave. The panel were all smiling when I left and the 'Groupie' asked me to wait for him outside. He then told me that I would be hearing within the next few days – at which I laughingly said that the last time I had heard that remark it had taken over 6 weeks for them to contact me. He assured me that he literally meant 'the next few days' and then asked me if I would wait for him and walk down to the Tube with him. This I did and he told me that he was due to be posted as the next Air Attaché in Buenos Aires hence his interest in my comments.
Two days later I was called for an Aircrew Medical and, having passed this easily enough, was offered a new commission in the RAF as a Flying Officer to start at Air Ministry on April 16th (this was barely 3 weeks since I visited the Recruiting Office in Croydon). Needless to say I accepted and duly reported for duty on the day required and then spent a month getting kitted out and doing some odd jobs for a Wing Commander in one of the departments there. Along with 13 other people reported to Central Navigation School at Shawbury on 23rd May for a Navigation Instructors Course. I teamed up with Jimmy Cuthill (with whom I shared a room) and Bob Hunter (who was a Canadian serving in the RAF).
[photograph]
Navigation Instructors Course, Shawbury 1951
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On 17th June I went with most of the others to Sick Quarters to have our inoculations brought up to date and as soon as I had had mine I began to feel odd. We all trouped back to the classroom and settled down to a lecture on 'how not to lecture' and I could feel myself 'blowing up like a balloon' and my heart racing like mad. I bemoaned the fact that I had never had a reaction to 'jabs' before and I really did feel rough. The Instructor eventually noticed that there was something wrong and told me to go back to the Mess and lie down. I remember 'floating' back and one of two gardeners asking me for the time and me just laughing back at them because I could not see the time on my watch. The next thing I knew was someone asking me how I felt and me just laughing like a mad thing again, and then later somebody standing over me and saying "I am just going to inject some adrenalin into you – you will find yourself shaking but try not to fight it – just let yourself go". I was then carried out to an ambulance and taken to the Station hospital. It seemed like hours before the shaking stopped but eventually it did and I felt very much better – in fact even asked for something to eat as I was hungry! Needless to say, I did not get a meal but was allowed a drink. After a while the M.O. (doctor) came to see me and explained what had happened. I had suffered an 'angino-neurotic' type of reaction to the inoculation and this was extremely rare and quite often fatal unless caught in time. It seems that when the lesson finished everyone wandered back to the Mess for lunch and, since it was a little late, everyone went straight in to eat except Jimmy Cuthill, who decided he ought to check up to see how I was. He found me unconscious on the bed and immediately called for the M.O. but could not find him. Fortunately he looked in the dining room and when he saw him eating his lunch insisted that he came up to our room immediately. The M.O. told me that if I had been left much longer I could very well have died. The humorous part of the story was that, after a good night's sleep and a hearty breakfast in bed, I felt completely fit and was allowed to rejoin the others in class. They were all sitting moaning about sore arms and feeling rotten and I was 'feeling no pain' and was able to 'lord' it over them for the rest of the day!
Flying started on my Birthday on Mark XI Wellingtons! and the course finished with an overseas flight using special navigation techniques (Grid Navigation). I was then posted to No. 1 Air Navigation School at Thorney Island and I reported there on 13th August. This was a prime posting and I was very pleased to get such a good one. However, it soon became obvious that something was not quite right. When I applied for married quarters I was told that I would not be considered "just yet" and no explanation was given when I queried this. When I tried to find out which courses I would be looking after I was allocated as course tutor and then, a little later, told that I was to be held in reserve pending the arrival of another course tutor. I then learnt that this new chap was Les Dibb who had been in the same Group at Shawbury and had hoped to be posted to Thorney but had eventually been posted to Lindholme. It then became fairly obvious that some 'string pulling' had been going on by someone at Thorney.
For the Open Day at Thorney I had arranged for Pam to bring Terry down for the day to look around and see the show. Nobody was more disappointed than me to have to tell her when she arrived that we were not going to be staying, since I had just been informed that my posting to Thorney was cancelled and that I was to report to No. 5 Air Navigation School at Lindholme on 19th September. Terry enjoyed the show until two aircraft flew over and dropped bags of flour (to represent bombs) and fake bangs designed to simulate the explosions & the crashes from the 'Anti Aircraft guns' frightened the life out of him. He yelled his head off and did not want to see anything else and all he wanted to do was to go home.
Just before leaving Thorney I met Ernie Ormerod (signaller) from back in 1946 as well as another signaller that I knew called 'Chuck' Radcliffe who was also on 52 Sqn. I really did not have enough time to do more than say hello before I was on my way.
I duly reported to Lindholme somewhat bitter about the whole thing but was immediately made Course Tutor under Flight Lieutenant 'Mick' Munday on No. 2 Long Navigation Refresher Course. This comprised 6 Officers and 1 NCO who had either been off flying for some long time or who had just come back into the Service. One of them, Flt.Lt. Willis, had been on the same course as me at ITW in Newquay. At the time he was re-mustering from Corporal SP
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(RAF Police) and we had given him a hard time during 'rough and tumble' games on the Beach. He subsequently became the Navigator with Prince Charles when he was learning to fly. They were a good crowd and I got on well with all of them. Our Classroom was a concrete hut, which had been used by the Poles as a church during the war and all the walls had been panelled with carved wood and decorated with religious artefacts. I could not get into quarters so I started looking around for somewhere to live (without much success), so I had travel up and down to Beddington whenever I could manage a weekend off. Without a car it was very difficult but I did manage to get lifts from time to time.
[photograph]
[underlined] No.2 L.N.R. COURSE. [underlined]
BACK ROW:- F/LT. CARR, F/O. GREEN, SGT. JONES, F/O. SWINFIELD.
FRONT ROW:- F/LT. WILLIS, F/O. D. MOORE, F/LT. H. MUNDAY, F/LT. HINGE, F/LT. ROWLAND.
NEGATIVE No LIND 290G 9 UN52/UNCLASSIFIED
When the Long Nav. refresher course finished we started to run navigation courses for National Service people. We found this to be very frustrating as most of those on the course were not the slightest bit interested in what they were doing and they had only chosen to become 'Navigators' as an easy way to spend their time instead of becoming 'PBI' (soldiers!) It was further made much worse when we were informed from a higher source that none of them were to be 'failed' (some political reason no doubt). One of them (a Pilot Officer Simpson) was so bad and such a bad influence on the others that we fought tooth and nail to get him 'scrubbed' but all we did was to made [sic] trouble for ourselves for 'making waves'. I shall always remember his face when he eventually 'passed out' as a navigator and was promoted to Flying Officer. He boasted openly that he was cleverer than us because he had 'beaten the system'. At the time I could only hope that he never had to put a flying crew at risk, as he would surely kill them all and himself as well. I often wonder what happened to him.
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1952
In the New Year we decided to sell the Bungalow and find somewhere up near Lindholme whenever we could. I negotiated with a Sergeant Paine who wanted to sell his car, and he agreed to accept a deposit and the balance as soon as we had sold the house. I did make it clear that I could not possibly pay him until the money came through from the solicitors and we had not even found a buyer for the Bungalow. At the time he seemed quite happy to agree to this but later had doubts and then started to cause me hassle. The car was a Hillman Minx Reg. No. FA7136, which served us well until about 1956.
In the meantime I found a house that the RAF were prepared to take on as a 'hiring' in Crabtree Drive at Five Lane Ends, Skellow, Just off the A1, about 7 miles North of Doncaster and I was able to start setting up a home there. Nowadays the Motorway around Doncaster rejoins the A1 just there and you can just see the road from the Service station at the junction.
The Bungalow sold quite quickly and we got £2,850 for it, having paid about £950 when we bought it. It took a while for all the loose ends to be tied up but eventually I got the money, paid off Sgt. Paine and moved the family up to the new place. Pam was sadly disappointed with it but the people were all very friendly and she began to like it after a while. We had a number of excursions from there and went to the sea at Hornsea on two or three occasions.
Having done well with No. 2 LNR Course I applied for a permanent commission but the Group Captain (Laine – I think) told me that I did not have the right kind of experience to suit me for a permanent career and turned me down. The Chief Navigation Instructor was Wing Commander Hickey (nicknamed 'Bone dome'), who also did not think much of me either. I rather think it had something to do with my leaving Thorney Island under odd circumstances.
After only a year and just getting settled into the house, I was surprised to find myself posted yet again. This time it seemed like a real improvement but very much a 'desk' job as one of the Navigation Examiners at the Command Examination Board, Flying Training Command at Shinfield Park just outside Reading. Our offices were in old huts a little removed from the main building and here began one of the more interesting posts of my career. We managed to find a bungalow to rent from a Mrs Samways at 36 Wood Way, Woodley and we were able to move from Doncaster quite quickly.
Having settled in, I was allocated the exams for the navigator's finals that I would be responsible for. These were: astro-navigation, maps & charts and magnetism & compasses. I also had to set the general navigation paper for pilots. I did not have much time to think before having to do a full set of exams and, only by Christmas, start to really appreciate the scope of the job.
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1953
To start off with, I had discovered that the questions on the subjects that I was to specialise in had previously been picked out by the examiner from a 'bank' of questions based on what had been set previously. After thinking about it for a while and based on my own experience decided that it was possible for the Instructors at the various Training Schools to work out a permutation which would more or less guarantee to predict over 60% of the questions.
All the exam papers were vetted by the newly appointed Chief Examiner (Gordon Arkley) and I did not have much difficulty in convincing him that we should be a bit more professional and he agreed that I could start-off by changing the system in one subject to be going on with. I started with astro navigation and set what I considered to be a very practical paper instead of the usual theory one. I sat back and waited and on the day of the exams the phone stated [sic] to ring and complaints came in thick and fast – 'Unfair', 'Not what we have been used to'; 'We were not able to prepare the students!' etc., etc. As a result, I was asked to attend a high power meeting of all the Chief Navigation Instructors and the senior people on the Examinations Board. In the meantime, I received all the papers for marking and the results showed that one school did very well but all the others failed miserably. When I was grilled at the meeting I was very pleased to have the backing of my own boss. When all of them were presented with the evidence that, apart from the one school, the others had not covered the syllabus properly and 'only taught what was necessary to get the students through the exam', there were a number of red faces and I was not very popular with them. However, the Chief of the Examination Board asked the schools to go back and put their houses in order and told them that from here on in, [underlined] [italics] all [/italics] [/underlined] examinations would be based on the new method and not on the 'Question Bank' method'. He then congratulated me on setting a fair and very practical paper, which should have been welcomed instead of being complained about. So began a new regime and after a while everyone agreed that things were much better than they used to be. We also move into better offices.
Gordon Arkley dabbled in amateur dramatics and had contacts with the film studios at Pinewood. One day he took me across there for lunch and introduced me to Glynis Johns and Robert Newton as well as a couple of other famous film stars whose names escape me. After a very 'boozy' lunch, we went across to the film-set and watched for a couple of hours. I cannot recall which film it was but it became one of the big hits of the 1950's. It was a most interesting experience.
During the year, I managed to get in a few hours flying from White Waltham airfield, mostly in Ansons, to visit other Flying Training Command units (to the Isle of Man and also to Northern Ireland). I also flew in a Procter, a Prentice and a Chipmunk.
It was just before Christmas, when I was sitting at my office desk, busy painting the air traffic control vehicle with black and white squares for the model airfield that I was making for Terry's Xmas present, when the Air Officer Commanding (Sir Arthur Pendred) chose to make his inspection (without notice) of the Examination Board's offices. I really thought I was in for big trouble for doing private work in duty time. When asked what I was doing, I decided to say precisely what, and why I was doing it! He did not blink an eyelid, had a good look at the model and then, as he turned for the door, wished me a happy Christmas and hoped that I managed to get it all finished in time!! Needless to say I put it all away quickly and tried to get on with some 'proper work'. I still expected that there would be repercussions but there never were. Some 5 year later (16/7/58), I was stationed at Pershore and I was flying with Group Captain Innes-Crump to a meeting at West Malling. When we entered the Bar in the Mess to get a drink before lunch, there was a large group in the corner surrounding a very senior officer – It was Sir Arthur! I was never more surprised in my life when he broke off talking to the others and called across to me to come and join his party. He greeted me as though I was a long lost friend and, remembering my name, ordered drinks for me and the Group Captain before asking me, with a smile on his face, if I ever managed to get [italics] that [/italics] Xmas present finished in time!! A marvellous man.
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1954
Started building model aircraft again and flew them in the fields at the back of the bungalow. After losing a glider, I made a Hawker Hunter powered by a 'jet' engine (in fact it was a pellet that had to be lit!) and Terry became quite upset when it got lodged up a tree. He started school in Woodley and has been back there recently to retrace his steps.
Bob Hunter, a Canadian who had been on the same course as me at Shawbury, was also based at Reading and he was always popping round to our place. He and his wife Marg are pictured, in the photo album, with us at the New Years Eve Party.
Having sat and worried about what happened last Xmas, was quite surprised to be offered, in February, a job on the Air Staff as Command Search & Rescue Officer & also to look after the Command Film Library. Apparently there was considerable opposition from some of the others working there (mostly Wing Commanders and above) as normally only 'Permanent Commission' officers were offered this sort of post. However my new boss, Wing Commander Bagott, made it quite clear that someone 'on high' had approved my appointment and immediately suggested that I apply for a permanent commission (my original commission was 'Short Service' – i.e.: 8 years). When I pointed out that I had already applied and been turned down and was reluctant to go through it all again, he offered to have the necessary forms filled in and all I needed do was sign them! By the end of the day this was done, and two days later I was called away from my office to attend an Assessment Board. I was totally unprepared for this but was assured that I did not need to go and get 'dressed up' and 'not to worry'! The interview took about 2 minutes and was a complete farce – we just passed pleasantries! Within a few minutes I was told that, of the 13 candidates having been seen, I was the only one to be recommended. After a few days I was called for another interview with an AVM Allison who carried out a proper 'grilling' but he was very pleasant about it and made it quite plain that it was just a formality.
Shortly afterwards I was offered a brand new Married Quarter and we then moved into 15 Salmond Road, Whitley Wood – right opposite the Baggots! The appointment to a Permanent Commission was not confirmed until 25th August and backdated to 1st June 1954. (I had already been informed verbally quite early on).
[certificate]
In my new job I did a fair bit of visiting and on one occasion, whilst flying with Group Captain Alvey stopping off a [sic] various Units, I had a further brief meeting with Mac (my 'skipper' on Bomber Command). Due to my interest in model making I also got involved in the RAF Model Aircraft competitions and was 'asked' to act as a Judge on a couple of them (see pictures in album).
Here I was introduced to my first flight in a jet aircraft – the Canberra. I have to say that I did not particularly enjoy it (I got air-sick).
My work was very absorbing and most of the dissenters soon began to accept me. I enjoyed mixing with quite senior officers and only found it difficult to get on with some of the 'upward pushing' more junior people. We became very friendly with our next-door neighbours – The Lacey's and we all got on very well together. Christine had started school here and most of the children from 'The Patch' went there as well.
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[page break]
1955
Having got nicely settled down in our Married Quarter I was somewhat disappointed to receive a Posting Notice in early January. However, I was told that it was supposed to be a prestige posting and about two weeks later I left Reading in a heavy snow blizzard on my way to the Royal Radar Establishment Flying Unit at RAF DEFFORD, near Worcester.
The Mess was deserted when I arrived in the gloom of a Sunday evening, with the snow still pelting down. Later, one or two others came in for a drink and were so friendly that I began to feel a little less dejected than I had been during the journey there. So began almost 5 years of a marvellous posting.
Initially, I lived in the Mess and immediately started flying in various aircraft, on trials of equipment designed by the 'boffins' at the Royal Radar Establishment at Malvern. My first flight was in Hastings TG503 piloted by 'Bert' Welvaert, aged 36, who claimed to be 'the youngest grandfather in the Air Force'. I next met up with Bert at the Berlin Airlift 50th Anniversary in May 1999
[photograph]
Bert Welvaert and myself standing if [sic] front of Hastings TG503’.
This aircraft is now on permanent display at the Allied Museum in Berlin.
I flew in the following types (in no particular order) during my stay on the unit (over 1000 hours all told):
Hastings
Lincoln
Shackleton
Dakota
Varsity
Ashton
Wayfarer
Marathon
Hermes
Devon
Valetta
Meteor
Canberra
Vampire
Whirlwind (Helicopter)
Fairly early on, I quite often flew with a pilot called Flt. Lt. Chase in a Hastings and around March time was scheduled to fly with him again on a trip to Farnborough. One of the other navigators, a Canadian (whose name I cannot remember), asked me to swap with him as he needed only a couple more hours to make up his first '1,000 hrs' before he left the unit to return to Canada. I agreed to do so just to do him a favour, but in the event I did myself a very special one as the aircraft crashed on take off from Farnborough, killing the navigator and severely injuring the flight engineer. The pilot and signaller were less severely injured and the two passengers in the back escaped with only minor injuries. When the news was first
35
[page break]
received, many of us were briefed to quickly break the news to the various wives and families. I was allocated the flight engineer's wife, wishing like mad that I had been able to go to the signaller's instead. However, as it turned out I was lucky again, as the signaller, whose wife had been told that he was "OK and not too badly hurt", had a relapse the following day and died from 'secondary shock'. On the other hand, John Mills the flight engineer, who had not been expected to live, remained in a coma for nearly a month and suddenly woke up one morning demanding to be fed as he was [italics] starving [/italics]! Although he finished up with a plate in his head, he actually returned to flying about six months later. The pilot recovered enough to return to flying but was posted away quite quickly when it was established that he had attempted to take off with the flying control locks still in place (i.e. [underlined] Pilot Error [/underlined])!
It is worth pointing out however, that the Hastings had mechanical locks of a new type instead of the old wooden blocks that fitted on the outside and had to be removed before getting into the aircraft. With the new method there was a lever in the cockpit that had to be actuated to release the locks. If the lever was operated whilst the aircraft had airflow over the wings etc., it did not release the locks as it was designed to do. As a result of this accident a modification was introduced to rectify the fault.
The funeral of the navigator took place in the local church in Pershore and I was a Pall Bearer for the funeral of the signaller in Scarborough. Once these funerals were out of the way, life gradually got back to normal.
After a short while I managed to find a 'hiring' – a large detached house in a very nice spot – 'Severn Croft', Bevere, in Worcester – and moved the family away from Reading. We have lots of expensive furniture, curtains etc., which has to be put away in store for safety. Started to make friends with the 'Lentons & Skeers' for Terry & Christine.
Peter was born in December and a new house is started in the field next to us. I did not fly at all this month and managed a fair bit of time off.
Pictures of us at the Summer Ball are in the photo-album.
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1956
The new Flight Commander (the unit split into two flights – 'A' Flight for piston engined & 'B' for jet aircraft), Sqn Ldr Tebbutt, shared an interest in model making and he started building a model boat whilst I stick to aircraft. I made a Tiger Moth, which flew well, and we used the airfield at weekends. Other aircraft that I made seemed to crash too easily and the Radar servicing Manager suggested that I use radio control. He offered to help me build it but I decided to put it into a model boat rather than aircraft as this was much safer.
Early in the year I got myself elected Mess Secretary, which slowed down the flying somewhat – sometimes to only 10-12 hours each month.
Being Mess Secretary became an almost full time job and, mixed in with developing a new radio control system to put into the destroyer that I built, my time was fully occupied and very rewarding. Two major Mess functions during the year and, as this was such a small Unit, I found myself suggesting, designing and constructing all the decorations for both of them. Fortunately the civilian component of the Unit made sure that I was able to get marvellous procurement & engineering assistance.
Peter was 1 year old just before the Christmas Ball and lots of locals attended his party.
1957
Started flying helicopters and was allowed to take the controls on odd occasions, eventually having some 'formal' instruction. I was told that fixed wing pilots are somewhat difficult to convert whereas other aircrew categories with good 'air sense' usually learn quite quickly. After about 10 hours dual I became reasonably competent and passed the 'brick wall' of it being in charge of you, to you being in charge of it!!
[photograph]
RRFU Defford, 1957
Group Captain Innes-Crump took me under his wing and nominated me as his navigator. We did various trips to conferences etc. and eventually he let me do most of the flying and some take-offs & landings (in a Devon). Many of the pilots started to let me fly the aircraft from the right-hand seat and eventually I even landed a Hastings all on my own (or at least I thought I did).
37
[page break]
[photograph]
Lincoln at zero feet!
Flying with Group Captain Innes-Crump (OC, RRFU Pershore)
At end of October the Unit moved from Defford to Pershore and took on a somewhat more formal atmosphere, which was not to everyone's liking.
10th December 1957, Peter's 2nd birthday and disaster on the Unit. One of 'B' Flight jet aircraft went missing and presumed crashed in the hills over North Wales. I had to visit the wife of one of crew members to warn her that her husband 'would be late home'. A dreadful story to delay the almost inevitable. As a result I was also 'late home' for the Birthday Party and could not say why – I was not very popular!!
Next day, along with others, flew a 4-hour sortie to see if we could find the crash site. Although flying very low ourselves amongst the treacherous hills, we could not find anything. Just before we were due to leave the area, we received a message that Mountain Rescue team had found the site and both crew had been killed. It was some way from where we had been looking near 'Drum Hill'. Another funeral to attend, and just before Christmas too. However see picture in album of us at Xmas Ball a few days later!
1958
Lots of flying each month this year mostly in:
Hastings
Varsity
Devon
Valetta
July – see item, 5th paragraph of 1953 re. Sir Arthur Pendred. Also see article & photos in 'Air Clues'.
The atmosphere at Pershore was not the same as at Defford. However, we all became very settled in at Bevere and friendly with neighbours – Lentons around corner, the Hucksters at the back and the next-door families on both sides. – A very pleasant year.
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1959
At beginning of year got in regular flying each month. Flew in a Meteor for the first time with Wing Commander Lawrence as pilot. Also did some more helicopter piloting but had become quite stale after so long.
April was particularly busy, flying, but after the first few days in June got caught for admin work.
On 10th July I was handed a signal informing me along with others (but not Flt. Lt. Smith mentioned in signal – see photo-album), that passage was booked on the FLANDRE, sailing 17th July, to attend a training course on the 'Thor Missile' in the USA. Mad panic to get ready and needed to get a Dinner Jacket for the voyage and other items at a time when I was particularly low on funds. Pam was not very happy with the idea of me being away for so long and having to look after everything on her own. Fortunately the neighbours at Bevere were all very supportive.
Travelled First Class by train from Worcester via London where we were joined by another group of RAF but who considered themselves very superior and tried to keep apart from us as much as they could. The Flandre was a French passenger liner of some 15,000 tons and the First Class passengers (mostly American – and us of course!) were extremely well looked after. After a very enlightening voyage and a charter flight to TUCSON Arizona, we started our training on Thor missiles at Davis Monathon AFB. Our group consisted of: self; Flt. Lt. Colin Reeve; Flt.Lt. Walker; Flt. Lt. Evans & Flg. Off. Nancarrow, together with Americans: Captains Jim Hadsell; Mel Schaffer & Carl Heintz. After an intensive 'ground' training period there, we travelled by car with Jimmy Hadsell via the Grand Canyon and Hoover Dam to Vandenberg AFB California.
[photograph]
Davis Monathon AFB, Tucson Arizona
Standing (in uniform), L-R: Flight Lieutenants John Evans, Jeff Walker, Colin Reeve, Myself
Below: USAF Captains Jim Hadsell and Mell Schaffer, Flying Officer Frank Nancarrow,, Captain Carl Heintz
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When the training had finished, another charter flight back to New York and thence on the SS America back to Southampton, where I was met by the family, who had been driven there by Mr Lenton.
Posted to No. 82 Squadron SHEPHERDS GROVE as Launch Control Officer in December.
[photograph]
RAF Thor Launch, July 1959
Vandenberg AFB, California
1960
Found a bungalow in Diss – about 10 miles from Shepherds Grove – to take on as a 'Hiring'. We moved from 'Severn Croft' on a very bleak and foggy day. It was very nostalgic as we had started to 'put down roots' in Worcester and very difficult as far as Schools were concerned. The journey was very hazardous as the car was loaded down with all the last minute items – Including the animals. At one point near Diss we finished up in a field because the fog was so thick – but eventually got to Diss about 4 hours later than planned.
I had not been in the Bungalow for long and was at home one lunchtime, when a Victor en-route for Honington, passed overhead quite low making a horrible roaring noise. We all rushed outside to see the aircraft on fire and will the crew to eject (we did not know at this time that only the pilots had ejection seats). Eventually, parachutes were seen to open but the aircraft dived into the ground about 2 miles away. As I was in uniform, I decide to drive towards the crash sight [sic] to see if I could help – but before I could get within a mile of it I was held up by masses of sightseers crowding the narrow lanes. In the end I gave up and returned home. It transpired that 2 of the crew had been killed – one of them opening his 'chute too late and the other (one of the pilots) getting out too late.
Spent the whole of the year on shift covering 365 days a year and having responsibility for 3 Thor nuclear missiles every time I was on shift.
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1961
Was selected to join the Feltwell Thor Missile Training Flight after categorisation by Bomber Command. [italics] Second US trip, this time to Vandenberg AFB, California for THOR test firing] [/italics]
[photograph]
82 Squadron crew. With RAF THOR Missile, Vandenberg AFB
1962
[inserted] Fl/L Moore [/inserted]
Headquarters Bomber Command,
Royal Air Force,
High Wycombe,
Bucks.
[underlined] Order of the Day [/underlined]
[underlined] To all Thor Squadrons and Stations [/underlined]
The decision to phase out the Thor Force of Bomber Command in no way detracts from the vital role which the force played in the past, and the significant part it will continue to play in future, until the very last missile is withdrawn.
Thor was the first strategic missile system operational in the West. At a time when the threat to this country came almost entirely from manned aircraft, you were the most formidable part of the defence of the United Kingdom, and the Western Alliance.
You in the Thor force have maintained a constant vigil day and night for almost four years. You have maintained a higher state of readiness in peacetime than has ever been achieved before in the history of the Armed Forces of the Crown. I am well aware of the sacrifices, so willingly accepted, that this constant readiness has imposed on the officers and airmen of the force.
I am content that History will recognise your devoted service in the cause of peace. I know that I can rely on you for the same devotion during the rundown phase, as you have shown since the birth of the force in 1958.
[signature]
(K. B.E. CROSS)
Air Marshal.
Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief.
Bomber Command
2nd August, 1962.
Announcing the rundown of Britain's THOR missile defence programme
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[page break]
1963
A very severe winter and had great difficulty travelling back and forth. On the way to Shepherds Grove, while driving along a cutting through a snowdrift, a car coming the other way crashed into me. Although my car was damaged, after temporary repairs I managed to drive it back to Diss and put it in to garage for proper repair. In the meantime, I used the Vespa scooter to get to the Units to do my categorisations. Strange, but everyone seemed to know I was coming, so the grapevine seemed to be working overtime.
All the pipes froze up at 102 Victoria Road, including the underground ones from the mains. Had to get water from our next-door neighbours, who remained unaffected. The Council eventually cleared the mains by passing an electric current in some way.
In July I was informed that [underlined] [italics] my services were no longer required by the RAF [/italics] [/underlined] and that I was to have a 'Last Tour Posting' somewhere nearby. I was shattered by this news as I had very high ratings in my job and good yearly assessments. I appealed to the Group Captain who was as much astounded as I was, particularly as other officers were being kept on whom he would 'court martial' given half a chance. Eventually he informed me that somewhere, someone with 'influence' didn't like me, and I must have upset whoever it was. So no reprieve!
Middle of July, I was posted to 721 Mobile Signals Unit based at Methwold as Commanding Officer – very strange! I was met with the results of a drunken brawl amongst members of the Unit under the previous CO and it took all of my energy and some very smooth talking to get it sorted out. Managed to restore unit pride with only two people being posted away and reprimands for a couple of others. It turned into a happy posting once I got everyone on my side. Managed to get damage fixed without any further problems.
The unit acted as a bomb plot for the "V" Force and had the call sign 'BRANTUB'. Unfortunately in October the unit was ordered to move to Lindholme. So much for it being a 'Last Tour Posting' [underlined] [italics] near [/italics] [/underlined] present residence.
1964
The Lindholme posting was not as bad as expected. Fell ill with flu just as move took place and when I finally drove up there from Diss I found the Unit on an isolated site, well away from the rest of the Station (see photos in 'Nostalgia' album). Everything was in good order and working well, all thanks to the good spirit now on the unit and a Warrant Officer who worked wonders to get it going. I now had an assistant, Pilot Officer Frank Moss, who was a navigator on Vulcans. Since we were acting as a "Bomb Plot" for the "V" Force, I think the idea was for him to persuade me to give good scores despite some of the dismal results they had been getting previously!
Made a number of suggestions for improving our lot on the Station and moral was very high. Managed to get us out of AOC's inspection and this also went down well. On the operational side I was able to invent a means of our not having to listen to the sound put out to simulate "Blue Steel" bombing. This was achieved by converting the sound signal into a visual meter display so that we could watch rather than having to listen for 10 minutes each run. Everyone at Bomber Command were surprised that nobody had thought of this before.
After we had settled in and were given a good result from the Bomber Command Inspection Team, I managed to arrange our shifts so that I could get away for longer periods. Finally, at the end of October, I was given a firm retirement date. I was given a very emotional farewell from the Unit and, although the practice was frowned upon in higher circles, I was given an inscribed watch as a going away present from all the members of the Unit (some 26 people excluding myself).
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From Lindholme I was finally posted to Honington to begin formalities to leave the Air Force. I only spent a few days there, handing in Kit and obtaining all the necessary clearances. On 19th November I drove away from Honington having finally 'retired'. I shall always remember it being rather like a dream but I do recall listening on the car radio to a program featuring Pam's cousin, Christopher Gable, who was leaving the Royal Ballet to take up an acting career (Christopher's last performance with the Royal Ballet was in 1965. He died in 1998).
The break was so great that I was hardly able to make any plans for the future.
Right: The final farewell
[Ministry of Defence Crest]
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
MAIN BUILDING, WHITEHALL, LONDON, S.W.1.
TELEPHONE WHITEHALL [indecipherable number]
29th October 1964
Dear Flt. Lt. Moore
The Secretary of State for Defence has it in command from Her Majesty The Queen to convey to you on leaving the Active List of the Royal Air Force her thanks for your long and valuable services.
May I take this opportunity of wishing you all good fortune in the future.
[signature]
Flight Lieutenant D. Moore
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1965
I managed to get a job with Marconi at Southend working with the modifications team and liaison with the RAF! It was very poorly paid but it was the best I could do under the circumstances.
We decided to move away from Diss and chose Chelmsford as the best place to settle down. It was the nearest into London that I wanted to go and the furthest out that Pam wanted to be. We started looking around and were particularly interested in some new houses being built on a development on the edge of town on Springfield road. They were more than I could really afford and the one we liked was suddenly sold to someone else. We needed to move quite quickly and when we saw a chalet bungalow, which Pam seemed to like, we decided to set the wheels in motion to buy it. No sooner had we paid a deposit than one of the new ones came back on the market, even before the walls had been built, so we decided to buy that one instead. I managed to commute half of my £500 a year RAF pension and the £250 translated into a cash sum of nearly £6,000, which only left a small mortgage requirement. The purchase proceeded reasonably smoothly and we finally moved into 2 Llewellyn Close on 9th April 1965. Moving into a newly built house was not such a good idea and all sorts of snags were encountered.
Only earning a pittance and very unhappy with what was expected of me, I started to look around again for another job.
1966
Got a job as Training Officer with Littlewoods operating out of Basildon, visiting all their stores in the south of England. Found it very difficult as all the lady supervisors were very suspicious of me and not at all co-operative. Was suddenly called up to Liverpool and made redundant with no reason given.
1967
Spent the whole year job hunting and at last got a job with John Zinc just outside St. Albans.
1968
21/10/68 – 13/12/68. Completed a Training Officer course (construction Industry) in Slough.
Finally got a reasonable job with Balfour Beatty in Bread St. London but had to leave after they moved to Croydon.
1970
At last I got a decent job! Started with Powell Duffryn, Great Tower St. London on 19th January but made redundant when they de-centralised
1971
After spending most of the year job hunting I finally started working for Letchworth and District Printers Group Training Scheme on 1st December
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1972
After travelling the 43 miles back and forth to Letchworth every day and finding it very tiring, we decided to look around for housing in Letchworth. I made up my mind that I wanted to be as near to work as possible and not have to travel any distance at all. Unfortunately this was a period of 'gazumping' and although our offer on the nice house we found in Cloisters Road and had been accepted, suddenly they had another buyer prepared to offer more. Reluctantly we bid for our present house and once again the offer was accepted. At the time of the year it looked much better than it actually was and, to make things worse, the day after swapping contracts the house in Cloisters came back on the market. We had easily sold our Chelmsford house and had completed on that, so we could not afford to change our minds. We finally moved into 116 West View on 15th May 1972.
Having been promised help in re-location by my employers, the Committee that had originally made the offer changed and all the new lot were prepared to give me was £100. I was not very happy about this and made my feelings very plain. But they just shrugged their shoulders.
1973 – 2010 No further entries
[photograph]
Celebrating my 80th Birthday
DM Memoirs (second Edition) Compiled and edited by Terry Moore, October 2010
Appendix and additional photographs – January 2011
Postscript – May 2012
Foreword – July 2012
[italics] The editor accepts no responsibility for inaccuracies [/italics]
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Postscript
The funeral service for my father took place at Harewood Park Crematorium, Stevenage, on Thursday 11th November 2010, attended by family, friends, representatives from the XV Squadron Association and colleagues from the North Herts. Branch of the Aircrew Association, of which he was president.
Like most airmen of his generation, Dad had a great affection for the Avro Lancaster, in which he spent many flying hours as navigator in both war time and peace, so it seemed most fitting that his ashes be scattered from the only remaining Lancaster still flying in this country.
[photograph] [photograph]
In May 2011, my wife and I made the ninety-mile trip to RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire where the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight is stationed and left the casket in the care of the Public Relations Manager who was to make the necessary arrangements.
[photograph] [photograph]
Dad took his "last flight" on 29th August 2011 in Avro Lancaster PA474 escorted by the Spitfire and Hurricane of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. His ashes were scattered over North Norfolk, England.
[chart]
BBMF flight schedule for 29/08/2011
Terry Moore, May 2012
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1945 Appendix 1 Operational Sorties – September 1944 – April 1945
[underlined] NO 218 SQUADRON RAF METHWOLD Aircraft Letters "HA" [/underlined]
[underlined] 17/09/1944 [/underlined]Sortie No: 1 (Daylight). Target [underlined] BOULOGNE [/underlined]
Aircraft – PD277 Code "A". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 2 hours 45 minutes
762 Aircraft – 370 Lancasters; 351 Halifax; 41 Mosquito. Dropped more than 3000 tons of Bombs on German positions around Boulogne in preparation for an attack by Allied troops. The German garrison surrendered soon afterwards.
1 Lancaster & 1 Halifax lost.
[underlined] 23-24/09/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 2 (Night time). Target [underlined] NEUSS [/underlined]
Aircraft – PD256 Code "J". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 hours 35 Minutes
549 Aircraft – 378 Lancasters; 154 Halifax; 17 Mosquito. Most of the bombing fell in the dock & factory area. A short local report only says that 617 houses & 14 Public Buildings were destroyed and 289 people killed/150 injured.
5 Lancasters & 2 Halifax lost.
[underlined] 26/09/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 3 (Daylight). Target [underlined] CAP GRIS NEZ [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlare [sic]
Flying Time – 2 Hours 55 Minutes
722 Aircraft – 388 Lancasters, 289 Halifax; 45 Mosquito – 531 aircraft to CAP GRIS NEZ (4 Targets) and 191 aircraft to 3 Targets in CALAIS. Accurate and intense bombing of all targets.
1 Lancaster lost
[underlined] 28/09/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 4 (Daylight). Target [underlined] CALAIS [/underlined]
Aircraft – PD277 Code "A". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 2 Hours 35 Minutes
341 Aircraft – 222 Lancasters; 84 Halifax; 35 Moquito. [sic] Target area covered in cloud but Master Bomber brought the force below cloud to bomb visually. Bombing was accurate.
1 Lancaster Lost
[underlined] 14/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 5 (Daylight). Target [underlined] DUISBURG [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours 5 Minutes
This raid was part of a special operation. (See page 601 of Bomber Command Diaries)
1013 Aircraft – 519 Lancasters; 474 Halifax; 20 Mosquito with RAF fighters escorting.
3574 Tons of HE & 820 Tons of incendiary.
13 Lancasters & 1 Halifax lost.
[underlined] 15/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 6 (Night time). Target [underlined] WILHEMSHAVEN [sic] [/underlined]
Aircraft ? Code "C". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours
506 Aircraft – 257 Halifax; 241 Lancasters; 8 Mosquito.
Last of 14 Major raids on Port of Wilhemshaven [sic]. Bomber Command claimed "severe damage caused."
No record of any losses noted.
[underlined] 19/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 7 (Night time). Target [underlined] STUTTGART [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 6 Hours 30 Minutes
565 Lancasters & 18 Mosquito in 2 forces 4 hours apart.
Serious damage caused to central and eastern districts (including BOSCH factory)
6 Lancasters lost.
[underlined] 23/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No. 8 (Night time). Target [underlined] ESSEN [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 5 Hours 5 Minutes
1055 Aircraft – 561 Lancasters; 463 Halifax & 31 Mosquito. This was the heaviest raid on Essen so far in the war and the number of aircraft also the greatest number on any target. (These results achieved [underlined] without [/underlined] the Lancasters from 5 Group!! 4538 Tons of Bombs dropped.
[underlined] 29/10/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 9 (Daylight). Target [underlined] WESTKAPELLE (WALCHEREN) [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 2 Hours 15 Minutes
358 Aircraft – 194 Lancasters; 128 Halifax & 36 Mosquito.
11 different ground positions attacked. Visibility was good and results were accurate.
1 Lancaster lost.
47
[page break]
[underlined] 04/11/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 10 (Daylight). Target [underlined] SOLINGEN [/underlined]
Aircraft – NF 934 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours 30 Minutes
176 Lancasters of 3 Group. The raid was not considered successful as bombing scattered.
4 Lancasters lost
Note: Aircraft NF934 Code "G" went "missing" on 12/12/1944
Squadron Leader N.G. Macfarlane promoted to Wing Commander and posted as Officer Commanding No: XV Squadron RAF Mildenhall in mid-November and sends aircraft to fetch whole crew from Methwold
[underlined] NO: XV SQUADRON RAF MILDENHALL Aircraft letters "LS" [/underlined]
[underlined] 28/11/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 11 (Night time). Target [underlined] NEUSS (DUSSELDORF) [/underlined]
Aircraft – HK 695 Code "V". Pilot – Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours 40 Minutes
145 Lancasters of 3 Group & 8 of 1 Group. GH Bombing attack. Modest damage.
No losses.
[underlined] 05/12/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 12 (Daylight). Target [underlined] SCHWAMMENAUEL DAM [/underlined]
Aircraft – ME 844 Code "C. Pilot – Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 4 Hours 40 Minutes
MASTER BOMBER – 56 Lancasters of 3 Group attempt to "Blow up" this Dam on river ROER to help American Army. Target covered in cloud. Only 2 aircraft bombed. No losses.
[underlined] 06/12/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 13 (Night time) Target [underlined] LEUNA MERSEBURG [/underlined] (Near LEIPZIG)
Aircraft – NG 357 Code "K" Pilot – Flt. Lt. Percy
Flying Time – 7 Hours 20 Minutes
475 Lancasters bombed Oil Target in Eastern Germany, 500 miles from UK. Cloud cover but considerable damage to the synthetic oil plant. 5 aircraft lost
[underlined] 08/12/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 14 (Daylight). Target [underlined] DUISBURG [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 357 Code "K". Pilot – Flt. Lt. Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 20 Minutes
163 Lancasters of 3 Group bombed on GH through cloud on railway yards. Good results.
No losses.
[underlined] 14/12/1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 15 (Night time). Target [underlined] MINING KATTEGAT [/underlined] (off KULLEN POINT)
Aircraft – NG 357 Code "K". Pilot – Flt. Lt. Percy
Flying Time – 7 Hours (Landed LOSSIEMOUTH)
30 Lancasters & 9 Halifax. Mines accurately laid. (see H2S photo) Diverted to Lossiemouth on return. No losses.
[underlined] 28/12//1944 [/underlined] Sortie No: 16 (Daylight). Target [underlined] COLOGNE [/underlined] (GREMBERG)
Aircraft – HK 693 Code "B". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 50 Minutes
167 Lancasters of 3 Group. Marshalling yards. Accurate bombing. No losses
[underlined] 01/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 17 (Night time). Target [underlined] VOHWINKEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 6 Hours 5 Minutes
146 Lancasters of 3 Group. Successful attack on railway yards. 1 aircraft lost
[underlined] 03/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 18 (Daytime). Target [underlined] DORTMUND [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 45 Minutes
99 Lancasters of 3 group. GH attacks through cloud on Coking plant (HANSA). Accurate bombing. 1 aircraft lost.
[underlined] 07-08/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 19 (Night time). Target [underlined] MUNICH [/underlined]
Aircraft – HK 618 Code "G". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 7 Hours 45 Minutes
645 Lancasters from 1,3, 5, 6 & 8 Groups – Very successful raid causing severe damage (see Terry's book – "Fliegeralarm" – Luftangriffe auf München 1940-1945)
11 aircraft lost and 4 crash in France
[underlined] 13/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 20 (Daylight). Target [underlined] SAARBRUCKENt [/underlined][sic]
Aircraft – ME 849 Code "L". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 6 Hours 20 Minutes
158 Lancasters of 3 Group attack Railway yards. Accurate but some overshooting
Divert to Predannack on return because of bad weather at base.
1 Aircraft lost
48
[page break]
[underlined] 16-17/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 21 (Night time). Target [underlined] WANNE EICKEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 5 Minutes
138 Lancasters of 3 Group attack Benzol plant. 1 Aircraft lost
[underlined] 23/01/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 22 (Daylight). Target [underlined] COLOGNE [/underlined] (GREMBERG)
Aircraft – PD 234 Code "E". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 55 Minutes
153 Lancasters from 3 Group attack Railway Yards. Good Visibility – Results variable
3 aircraft lost and 1 crashed in France
[underlined] 09/02/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 23 (Night time). Target [underlined] HOHENBUDBERG (DUISBERG KREFELD) [/underlined]
Aircraft – PD 234 Code "E". Pilot – Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 5 Hours 10 Minutes
151 Lancasters from 3 Group attack Railway Yards. 2 Lancasters lost
[underlined] 19/02/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 24 (Daylight). Target [underlined] WESEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 444 Code "Y". Pilot – Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane
Flying Time – 5 Hours 15 Minutes
168 Lancasters from 3 Group. Good attack with best results around railway area
Leading Aircraft for whole of 3 Group. (I navigated and everyone else followed me!)
1 Lancaster lost
[underlined] 02/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 25 (Daylight). Target [underlined] COLOGNE [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 30 Minutes
858 Aircraft – 155 Lancasters from 3 Group. Only 15 aircraft from 3 Group bombed because of GH failure. All other bombing highly destructive. Cologne captured by the Americans 4 days later. 6 Lancasters lost
[underlined] 04/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 26 (Daylight). Target [underlined] WANNE EINCKEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 55 Minutes
128 Lancasters from 3 Group bombed on GH. No losses.
[underlined] 05/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 27 (Daylight). Target [underlined] GELSENKIRCHEN [/underlines]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 35 Minutes
170 Lancasters from 3 Group. Leading Aircraft for whole of 3 Group.
1 Lancaster lost
[underlined] 11/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 28 (Daylight). Target [underlined] ESSEN [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 6 Hours 5 Minutes
1079 Aircraft – 750 Lancasters. Attack accurate and Essen paralysed.
Leading aircraft for 32 Base. 3 Lancasters lost
[underlined] 22/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 29 (Daylight). Target [underlined] BOCHULT [/underlined]
Aircraft – PA 235 Code "E". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 5 Hours 15 Minutes
100 Lancasters from 3 Group. Leading aircraft for Squadron. Town seen to be on fire.
No losses
[underlined] 23/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 30 (Daylight). Target [underlined] WESEL [/underlined]
Aircraft – PA 235 Code "E". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 4 Hours 35 Minutes
Special GH attack to support Rhine crossing. 80 Lancasters from 3 Group.
Signal from General Eisenhower congratulating the crews concerned on their very accurate bombing.
[underlined] 29/03/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 31 (Daylight). Target [underlined] HALLENDORF [/underlined] (SALZGITTER)
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 7 Hours 5 Minutes
130 Lancasters from 3 Group. Attack on Benzol plant using GH. Leading aircraft for Squadron.
No losses
[underlined] 9-10/04/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 32 (Night time). Target [underlined] KIEL BAY [/underlined] – MINING
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 6 Hours 10 Minutes
70 Lancasters. No loss on Mining but 4 lost on main raid on Kiel (Very accurate - Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer hit and capsized. Admiral Hipper Emden badly damaged.)
49
[page break]
[underlined] 14//04/1945 [/underlined] Sortie No: 33 (Night time). Target [underlined] POTSDAM [/underlined]
Aircraft – NG 358 Code "H". Pilot – Squadron Leader Percy
Flying Time – 8 Hours 35 Minutes
500 Lancasters. Attack successful and severe damage caused
1 Lancaster lost to night fighter.
Tour completed because the tour requirement was reduced from 40 to 30 whilst we were over Potsdam.
References Air 27 1352 (218 Sqn)
Air 27 204 & 205 (XV Sqn)
[photograph]
End of Tour, Mildenhall, April 1945
Lancaster "H" Howe, NG538
L-R: P/O Johnny Forster (flight engineer), Flt Sgt Jimmy Bourke (mid-upper gunner),
Ft Sgt 'Nobby' Clarke (rear gunner), Sqn Ldr Pat "Tojo" Percy (pilot), Flt Sgt Dennis "Napper" Evans (wireless op.)
F/O Tom Butler (bomb aimer), F/O Dennis Moore (navigator)
[photograph)
End of Tour, Mildenhall, April 1945
Lancaster "H" Howe, NG538
Squadron Leader Percy & Crew with ground crew
50
[page break]
1945 Appendix II
[underlined] Lancaster NG 358 Mark B1. XV Squadron (15) Coded LS-H [/underlined]
This aircraft was built by Armstrong Whitworth at their Baginton factory and was one of 400 delivered to the RAF between July 1944 & February 1945. The previous LS-H was HK 648 and NG 358 first appeared on the squadron in Mid-December 1944. It was finally 'Struck off charge' on 19/10/1945
[photograph]
Dates actually flown in this aircraft:
30/12/1944 Day 1450 'GH' Bombing Exercise
1-2/01/1945 Night 1610 6.05 VOHWINKEL 146 a/c, 3 missing
03/01/1945 Day 1250 4.45 DORTMUND 50 a/c
16-17/01/1945 Night 2307 5.05 WANNE EINCKEL 138 a/c, 1 missing
27/01/1945 Day 1005 Air Test
02/03/1945 Day 1200 5.30 KÖLN Led 32 BASE, 531 a/c, 6 missing
04/03/1945 Day 0946 4.45 WANNE EINCKEL 128 a/c
05/03/1945 Day 0940 5.35 GELSENKIRCHEN Led 3 Group, 170 a/c, 1 missing
11/03/1945 Day 1200 6.05 ESSEN Led 32 BASE, 750 a/c, 3 missing
29/03/1945 Day 1230 7.05 HALLENDORF Led SQUADRON, 130 a/c
09-10/04/1945 Night 2000 6.10 KIEL BAY MINING 70 a/c
14-15/04/1945 Night 1825 8.55 BERLIN (POTSDAM) 500 a/c, 2 missing
The crew of 'H' – 'HOWE' on the above flights was:
Pilot Squadron Leader Pat Percy
Navigator Flying Officer Dennis Moore
Bomb Aimer Flying Officer Tom Butler (Canadian)
F/Engineer Pilot Officer Johnnie Forster
Wireless Op. F/Sgt. Dennis Evans
Mid Upper F/Sgt. Jimmy Bourke
Rear Gunner F/Sgt. Nobby Clarke
Other 'operations' in other aircraft were flown with Wing Commander N.G. Macfarlane as Pilot. (see note below)
51
[page break]
[underlined] Explanations: [/underlined]
Bomber Command was split into GROUPS (mainly 3 & 5 Group) – each Group split into 3 BASES and each Base comprised 2 or 3 airfields on which there were usually 2 SQUADRONS. Each Squadron was normally split in two FLIGHTS although sometimes they had three. 3 Group Base were Nos. 31; 32 & 33. 31 Base comprised STRADISHALL & WRATTING COMMON plus one other; 32 Base comprised MILDENHALL, LAKENHEATH & METHWOLD. 33 Base comprised WATERBEACH, WITCHFORD & MEPAL. The other Squadron at MILDENHALL at this time was No 622 (Australian). Each Squadron normally had 24 aircraft and a 'MAXIMUM EFFORT' was achieved when all of them flew on an OPERATION ('op').
All daylight trips were in tight FORMATION and Bombing was done on 'GH' – which was operated by the navigator who actually 'pressed the button'. The Bombing Leaders were distinguished by the double yellow bars on the tailfin/rudder. All others in the flight bombed on the Leader. A limited number of Squadrons & Aircraft in No 3 Group were fitted with this equipment, which was extremely accurate.
Note. Mac (or Nigel, as I now am allowed to call him) lives in a retirement home near Capetown, South Africa. At the Mildenhall register meeting in May 1995 I was told he had died. The following day I was able to contact his son Ian (whom we had 'baby-sat') who is now a Harley Street Consultant and he put paid to this rumour.
Nigel & Margaret visited the UK June 2000 to celebrate their 60th Wedding Anniversary and Pam & I were invited to their Party. Not able to drive at the time so unable to go. Terry offered to pick him up and take him with us to Squadron 85th Birthday celebrations at Lossiemouth. Unfortunately he was not well enough so Terry & I went to Lossiemouth on our own.
1945 Appendix III
[italics] The Operational Sortie which the crew decided had turned me from being a "very Good" Navigator into an "ACE" Navigator. (Their words - not mine!!) [/italics]
An operational order was "posted" quite early in the morning of the 7th January 1945 and the fuel load was 2154 gallons (the maximum) so we all knew that we were in for a long haul. At the pre-flight briefing Munich was announced as the target and we were allocated HK618 "G" (George) with Squadron Leader Percy as pilot. We learned later that 645 aircraft from 1;3;5;6 and 8 Groups loaded with 1 x 4000 pounder (Cookie) and clusters of incendiaries, carried out a very successful bombing raid causing very severe damage. (See photos in Terry's book). A total of 11 aircraft were lost and another 4 crashed in France (nearly 3%, which was quite high at this time).
Getting airborne at 1830, the flight out was quite uneventful from a navigational point of view with 'Gee' working well and covering a good way down into France. Having bombed on a well lit (burning) target, the Alps were now the only visible landmarks and, at the appropriate time, we turned onto a northerly heading based on the wind component calculated on the way down across France. We kept going on this heading, expecting to pick up something to give us a 'fix' but unfortunately nothing was forthcoming, and at the ETA at the French coast I asked if any of the crew could see anything. Nobody else could see through the cloud but the rear gunner (who had a good downward view) finally called to say that we had just passed over a 'Pundit' flashing what turned out to be Manston!! Quickly turning on the IFF (identifying friend not foe) and crossing the Thames estuary, a quick calculation, the message" Maintain heading – ETA base in 17 minutes" was passed to the pilot. EXACTLY 17 minutes later the pilot reported "overhead base – joining circuit. Well done Navigator" Thus ended a 7hour 45 minute flight and the very tired but elated crew gathered in the briefing room to be met, as usual, by the padre dishing out the rum ration for those that wanted it. I was quite happy to have my share while we were being de-briefed, with a crew enthusing over my marvellous navigation (all the way back from the south of France without having to change heading once!!) and then off to the quarters behind the Mess to a well earned sleep.
What was never mentioned to anyone – and the crew in particular – was that, had the heading been just ONE degree to starboard, we would have gone sailing – literally – up the north sea and, because of the cloud cover, not know why we never made it back to base – if we had survived the ditching in the dark and subsequent days adrift in the North Sea – that is!!!
52
[page break]
1945 Appendix IV
[underlined] Dakota Flights (as Navigator) July 1945 – May 1946 [/underlined]
109 OTU Crosby on Eden
08/07/1945 – 23/07/1945 DAY 18.55, NIGHT 7.45
PILOTS: Flt/Lt Mason & Flt/Lt Samuael
Aircraft registrations: FZ609 KG502 KG619 KG658 KG664 KG666
B Flight 1383T/C.U
26/07/1945 – 27/08/1945 DAY 49.55, NIGHT 26.15
PILOTS: P/O Zygnerski & Flt/Lt Herringe
Aircraft registrations: FL652 KG373 KG392 KG638 KG726 KG644 KG649 KG657 KG726
52 Squadron RAF DUM-DUM CALCUTTA
01/12/1945 – 08/05/1946 DAY 345.25, NIGHT 13.50
PILOTS: Mainly F/O Harris but also Flt/Lt Ruddle, F/O Lofting, Flt/Lt Earwalker & F/O MacArthur
Route flying from Calcutta to Bangkok, Saigon (Ho Chi Minh), Hong Kong, sometimes calling into Chittagong, Meiktila, Hmawbi, Rangoon, Canton
Aircraft registrations:
FL507 FL612 KG212 KG502 KG573 KG923
KJ813 KJ814 KJ820 KJ904 KJ963 KK190
KN211 KN219 KN231 KN239 KN240 KN299
KN301 KN308 KN341 KL507 KN534 KN573
KN600 KN604 KN630 KN633 KP211
Total Hours: DAY 413.35 NIGHT 47.10
Appendix 1949
[underlined] "Lancastrian" G – AGWI/1281/TX276/111 [/underlined]
I flew 13 Sorties as Navigator in this Aircraft on the Berlin Airlift.
Registered 28/11/1945 to Ministry of Aircraft Production.
Certificate of Airworthiness No: 7283 24/01/1946.
Delivered to BSAA (British South American Airways) Heathrow 27/01/1946
Named 'Star Land'
Registered to Ministry of Civil Aviation 16/08/1948.
Sold to Flight Refuelling Ltd. 16/01/1949 and Registered to them 18/01/1949.
Allotted Fleet No. 'Tanker 26' and flew [underlined] 226 [/underlined] Sorties on Berlin Airlift
Scrapped at Tarrant Ruston 26/09/1951.
Berlin Airlift
[logo] Berlin Airlift [emblem]
[drawing]
[inserted] TX 276/1281 [/inserted]
AVRO LANCASTRIAN – FLIGHT REFUELLING LTD
47403
On 23 June 1948, the Soviet forces occupying the eastern part of Germany blockaded all rail, road and waterway supply routes from the Allied Western Occupation Zones in Berlin. With less than one month’s supply of food and fuel, the prospects for the two and a half million Berliners looked bleak. Only three severely restricted air routes remained as a lifeline between the besieged city and the western world. The Allies responded immediately with a miracle of logistics – The Berlin Airlift. Codenamed Operation Vittles by the USAF, and Operation Plainfare by the RAF, over a period of 11 months Allied aircraft made thousands of flights into the cramped airspace of Berlin and succeeded in supplying everything the city needed. Every available aircraft from RAF Transport Command was in service, as well as hundreds of USAF aircraft and even civil charter firms were called upon to supplement the effort. The operation became so skilled that the Soviet Command eventually realised that they had failed and on 12 May 1949 the blockade was finally lifted.
Avro Lancastrian G-AGWI represents an aircraft which was originally delivered to British South American Airways (BSAA) at Heathrow in January 1946. The aircraft was registered to the Ministry of Civil Aviation for a short period in 1948 before being sold to Flight Refuelling in January 1949. The aircraft was then allotted fleet no. Tanker 26 and flew 226 sorties on the Berlin Airlift.
[inserted] I FLEW IN 13 OF THEM [/inserted] [diagram]
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Dennis Moore Autobiography
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Dennis Moore's autobiography, compiled and edited by his son, Terry Moore.
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Dennis Moore
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Sue Smith
12 OTU
15 Squadron
1653 HCU
218 Squadron
3 Group
5 Group
52 Squadron
6 Group
8 Group
82 Squadron
90 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
air gunner
Air Observers School
aircrew
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crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
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Hampden
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
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Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancastrian
Lincoln
Master Bomber
memorial
mess
Meteor
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Nissen hut
Oboe
Operational Training Unit
pilot
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Catterick
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF Farnborough
RAF Feltwell
RAF Honington
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Lindholme
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Mepal
RAF Methwold
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Shawbury
RAF Shepherds Grove
RAF Stradishall
RAF Thorney Island
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wigtown
RAF Witchford
RAF Wratting Common
Shackleton
Spitfire
Stirling
Sunderland
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
wireless operator
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/777/10688/PFalgateD16030081.1.jpg
17d8293a733c50afa2b2be04d6fadb0b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/777/10688/PFalgateD16030082.1.jpg
54f05580cdc4a993be63325da0279781
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Falgate, Donald
D Falgate
Description
An account of the resource
69 items. The collection concerns Squadron Leader Don Falgate (136896 Royal Air Force) and consists of 68 pre-war, wartime, and post-war photographs and a handwritten detailed account of his tour. Don Falgate trained in Canada and flew operations as a bomb aimer with 463 Squadron from RAF Waddington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Paul Falgate and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Falgate, D
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Don Falgate as a new Pilot Officer
Description
An account of the resource
Don Falgate, standing in the snow, full length, in uniform, with observer half wing brevet. Captioned 'Newly commissioned Pilot Officer Observer at RCAF Monckton [sic], New Brunswick. Winter 1942.'
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFalgateD16030081, PFalgateD16030082
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
New Brunswick
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aircrew
observer
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/777/10695/PFalgateD16030069.1.jpg
edee90825ab4b273db72a2d402952c8a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/777/10695/PFalgateD16030070.1.jpg
3fd514ab394e2ca29d5dc3de90f177c0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Falgate, Donald
D Falgate
Description
An account of the resource
69 items. The collection concerns Squadron Leader Don Falgate (136896 Royal Air Force) and consists of 68 pre-war, wartime, and post-war photographs and a handwritten detailed account of his tour. Don Falgate trained in Canada and flew operations as a bomb aimer with 463 Squadron from RAF Waddington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Paul Falgate and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Falgate, D
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Don Falgate as newly qualified observer
Description
An account of the resource
Don Falgate with the other seven other course members,in uniform, standing in the snow, barracks in the background. Captioned 'Having recently completed aircrew training in Canada (self second from left) and passed out as sergeant observers. Photo in winter headdress at RCAF Monckton [sic], New Brunswick, Canada, awaiting repatriation. Winter 1942.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFalgateD16030069, PFalgateD16030070
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aircrew
observer
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/777/10687/PFalgateD16030083.1.jpg
ff94faf8598be3f58bb03422d352dbad
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/777/10687/PFalgateD16030084.2.jpg
71a484733b11a2a3f1c29488af9ecba6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Falgate, Donald
D Falgate
Description
An account of the resource
69 items. The collection concerns Squadron Leader Don Falgate (136896 Royal Air Force) and consists of 68 pre-war, wartime, and post-war photographs and a handwritten detailed account of his tour. Don Falgate trained in Canada and flew operations as a bomb aimer with 463 Squadron from RAF Waddington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Paul Falgate and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Falgate, D
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Don Falgate on a Canadian train
Description
An account of the resource
Don Falgate standing by entrance steps to a railway coach, in the snow, full length, in uniform, with half wing observer brevet. Captioned 'Commissioned as a Pilot Officer at RCAF Port Arthur, Ontario. Photo shows self on the way to RCAF Monckton [sic] - by train. Had to remove the NCO stripes but officers uniform not obtained until I reached Monckton [sic]. Equipment bought at Eaton's stores. Photo. winter 1942.'
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFalgateD16030083, PFalgateD16030084
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
Ontario--Thunder Bay
Ontario
New Brunswick
aircrew
observer
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1582/25637/MBowerFG1575473-200123-040001.2.jpg
e29506c0701853562af576baceb9d6d8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1582/25637/MBowerFG1575473-200123-040002.2.jpg
7feac53be88389ca92cd451dced70a1a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bower, Frank Geoffrey
F G Bower
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-01-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bower, FG
Description
An account of the resource
39 items. The collection concerns Frank Geoffrey Bower (1575473 Royal Air Force). It contains his log book, photographs and documents as well as a photograph album of his time training in Miami, Florida. He trained as a navigator and was killed when his Wellington crashed 4 April 1943.<br /><br />The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Slack and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on Frank Bower is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/102362/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
1575473 L.A.C. Bower F.G.
Despatch Wing
No. 3. P.R.C.
Bournemouth
Hants.
1575473 L.A.C. Bower F.G.
Course 43
No. 3. O.A.F.U.
R.A.F.
Bobbington
Worcs
Sgt Ron Burns
92 Wood St.
Barnsley
Yorks
[page break]
1575473 A.C.2 F.G. Bower
B. Flight
No 4 Squadron
No. 3. I.T.W.
R.A.F.
Torquay, Devon.
Mrs. H.J.R. Slack
6 Broad Hill Rd
Kegworth Derby.
1575473 L.A.C. Bower F.G.
No 1 Flight
‘A’ Squadron
No 1 E.A.O.S.
R.A.F.
Eastbourne
1575473 L.A.C. Bower F.G.
No 31 R.A.F. P.D.
Monkton
New Brunswick
Canada
Mrs H.J.R. Slack
Windyridge
Ashby Rd
Kegworth Derby
1575473 F.G. Bower
British Cadet
Room 302
Hotel San Sebastian
348 Santander Avenue
Coral Gables
Miami
Florida
U.S.A.
[underlined] Phone Numbers [/underlined]
Trent M.T Co Ltd Hucknall 329
Slack & Parr Kegworth 14
T.M.T. Co Ltd Loughboro 2110
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
F G Bower's Address List
Description
An account of the resource
A list of addresses where F G Bower stayed interspersed with names and addresses of colleagues.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
FG Bower
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two handwritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MBowerFG1575473-200123-040001,
MBowerFG1575473-200123-040002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Bournemouth
England--Torquay
England--Derby
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
Florida--Miami
England--Eastbourne (East Sussex)
Florida
New Brunswick
England--Derbyshire
England--Devon
England--Hampshire
England--Sussex
England--Yorkshire
England--Barnsley (South Yorkshire)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
RAF Halfpenny Green
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2200/40164/MDarbyCAH927893-180202-08.1.pdf
4ad37b191d7fb8ce2f55434aba9777cd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Darby. Charles Arthur Hill
Darby, CAH
Jack Darby
Johnny Darby
Description
An account of the resource
203 items. The collection concerns Charles Arthur Hill Darby (1915 - 1996, 154676 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs, documents and correspondence. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 186 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard John Darby and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-02
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Darby, CAH
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
F/O CAH Darby No 154676 - Letters home
Description
An account of the resource
A list of all the letters sent home by Jack from 6 February 1943 to 13 November 1945.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Blackpool
England--Manchester
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
Alberta--Lethbridge
Alberta--Edmonton
United States
New York (State)--New York
England--Filey
England--Harrogate
Northern Ireland
England--Claygate
Germany--Rhineland
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Trier
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Homburg (Saarland)
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Recklinghausen (Münster)
Germany--Bochum
France--Aube
Netherlands--Hague
Netherlands
Germany
New Brunswick
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
26 printed sheets
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MDarbyCAH927893-180202-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
16 OTU
1661 HCU
186 Squadron
622 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Acaster Malbis
RAF Barford St John
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Burn
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Scampton
RAF Stradishall
RAF Syerston
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Winthorpe
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/247/7399/PDorricottLW15090026.jpg
cd829a1111ebb1214903a541a6d2e3b7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/247/7399/PDorricottLW15090027.jpg
2cb659de29112e2bdc8705a36967e603
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dorricott, Leonard William
Leonard Dorricott
Len Dorricott
L W Dorricott
Description
An account of the resource
72 items. An oral history interview with Rosemary Dorricott about her husband Flying Officer Leonard William Dorricott DFM (1923-2014, 1230753, 1230708 Royal Air Force). Leonard Dorricott was a navigator with 460 and 576 Squadrons. He flew 34 operations including Operation Manna, Dodge and Exodus. He was one of the crew who flew in Lancaster AR-G -George, now preserved in the Australian War Memorial. He was a keen amateur photographer and the collection contains his photographs, logbook and papers. It also contains A Dorricott’s First World War Diary, and photographs of Leonard Dorricott’s log book being reunited with the Lancaster at the Australian War Memorial.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rosemary Dorricott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-07
2015-11-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dorricott, LW
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Five airmen on a locomotive
Description
An account of the resource
Five airmen in greatcoats standing on the front of a steam locomotive. Leonard Dorricott is second from the left. On the reverse 'Moncton Moncton Station 9 April 1942 The "Gang" '.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-04-09
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PDorricottLW15090026, PDorricottLW15090027
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
New Brunswick
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-04-09
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Dorricott, Leonard William. Folder PDorricottLW1509
aircrew
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1615/24737/PCothliffKB15030102.1.jpg
eac99ffb45839d6d20889ddf9099330b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cothliff, Ken 427 and 429 Squadrons
Description
An account of the resource
151 items. The collection contains photographs of personnel from 427 and 429 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ken Cothliff and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cothliff, K
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SQDN. 427 DATE OF ARRIVAL May 30/44
[a] POSN [b] RANK [c] NAME [d] NUMBER [e] HOME [f] AGE
[a] CAPT [b] F/O [c] Plyley G.E. [d] J26145 [e] N.Falls [f] 27
[a] NAV [b] F/O [c] Farrow V.L. [d] J29578 [e] New Lisgeard [f] 31
[a] AB [b] F/O [c] Jarvis A.H. [d] J22095 [e] Winnipeg [f] 23
[a] WOP [b] Sgt. [c] Davidson H.J. [d] R191098 [e] Port Arthur [f] 21
[a] FE [b] Sgt. [c] Selley W.A. [d] 930878 [e] London [f] 34
[a] MU/AG [b] Sgt. [c] Shaw A.N. [d] R262608 [e] Nelson BC [f] 19
[a] R/AG [b] Sgt. [c] Kearns R.G. [d] R256542 [e] Moncton [f] 22
[photograph]
LMG. 125. P/O. PLYLEY. 427.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Officer GE Plyley and Crew
Description
An account of the resource
Seven airmen arranged in a row. Their names are listed in a caption above. On the image is annotated 'LMG. 125. F/O Plyley. 427'
Format
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One b/w photograph
Language
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eng
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PCothliffKB15030102
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
North America--Niagara Falls
Ontario--New Liskeard
Manitoba--Winnipeg
Ontario--Thunder Bay
British Columbia--Nelson
New Brunswick--Moncton
Great Britain
England--London
Ontario
New Brunswick
Manitoba
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Steve Baldwin
427 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
flight engineer
navigator
pilot
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1375/23756/PEdgarAG19010111.2.jpg
7f5e9b5dbb7b1c5fa6248160eeec4d76
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Edgar, Alfred George
Edgar, A G
Description
An account of the resource
83 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer Alfred George 'Allan' Edgar DFC (b. 1922, 172180 Royal Air Force) He flew operations as a pilot with 49 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Pip Harrison and Sally Shawcross nee Edgar, and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-04
2019-10-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Edgar, AG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harvards at Moncton
Description
An account of the resource
A postcard of 14 Harvards in a line with a parade of airmen marching past. It is captioned 'Greetings from Moncton, N.B.'
Format
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One b/w photograph
Language
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eng
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PEdgarAG19010111
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
New Brunswick--Moncton
New Brunswick
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aircrew
Harvard
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1236/17059/PThompsonKG15010008.2.jpg
a937aef47569ec0d4c4cf2513d13ecda
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thompson, Keith G
K G Thompson
Description
An account of the resource
95 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Keith Thompson DFC (1238603 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents, photographs and training material as well as his navigation logs. He flew operations as a navigator with 101 and 199 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Mark S Thompson and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Thompson, KG
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
3.30 Jan '42 My first flying - 7 hours Tiger Moth, Fairoaks, Woking. 30 Jan - 26 Feb '42 Manchester Holding Unit.Waiting for a boat to Canada. (In nice "slushy" snow). 26 Feb - 8 Mar '42 S.S. Orbita CPR Lines, a very rough crossing from Scotland to Halifax Nova Scotia. Moncton N.B, Depot, still freezing cold, everyone had skating rinks in back gardens. 11 - 15 March '42 Moncton to Calgary (De Winton EFTS) On same train for five days and nights. 'Wings' choc bars and packets of cigarettes were were given to us at Winnipeg where we stopped to top up with coal, water and food'.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Initial training and travelling to Canada
Description
An account of the resource
A newspaper cutting, annotated with the date Oct 8th 1950 reporting that S.S. Orbita had been scrapped.
A 'Wings' chocolate bar wrapper.
Two small photographs, one showing a large North American style steam locomotive, the other showing a number of people boarding a North American style train.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-01
1942-03
Format
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Two b/w photographs, chocolate bar wrapper and clipping on an album page
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Artwork
Identifier
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PThompsonKG15010008
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
New Brunswick--Moncton
Alberta--De Winton
Nova Scotia--Halifax
Canada
New Brunswick
Alberta
Nova Scotia
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-01
1942-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
aircrew
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1258/17167/PBarronAJK1901.1.jpg
f6b3bac684a11f7127d93f5570e15270
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1258/17167/ABarronAJK190408.1.mp3
c98cabad42ac3ab3f8456bba3c8cb148
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barron, Andrew
Andrew James Kelton Barron
A J K Barron
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Andrew Barron (1923 - 2021, 163695 Royal Air Force) He flew 38 operations as a navigator in 223 Squadron at RAF Oulton flying B-24s.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-10
2018-04-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Barron, AJK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: So, my name is Nigel Moore, it’s Monday the 8th of April and I am with Andrew Barron, in his house and he’s going to talk to me about his time in 223 Squadron as a navigator. So Andrew, can you start by telling me about your childhood and growing up? Where did you, where were you born and go to school?
AB: Well, yes, I was born in Chichester, I mean that’s a matter of fact, but my father was, as far as I know, he was a civil servant at the time. He’d fought in the First World War, he’d, he was born in 1893 and so at the outbreak of the First World War he was about eighteen or nineteen and I think he was in the Territorials then, and anyway he fought there, he was sent to Mesopotamia and we never talked about that, you know. I don’t think veterans of the First World War did talk about their experiences any really, much more than veterans of the Second World War: I think it’s taken the interest of our grandchildren really to spark off interest, you know. They’ve started taking an interest. Michael my son in law took us on a jaunt to the Western Front about twenty years ago and I was surprised at the number of young people, teenagers and early twenties and I think this is what has sparked our interest. As far as I am concerned, I’d been a student at the City and Guilds Engineering College in 1941 ‘42 when I joined up and prior to that I’d had an interesting career. My maternal grandfather had been in the Royal Navy, he’d been an engineer officer and I’ve often wondered since if his rather smart uniform and everything inspired my mother to push me into a naval career because when I was thirteen, thirteen and a half I was enrolled in the Royal Naval College, Dartmouth to become a naval officer. I had quite a, quite a pleasant time there really. We were, I’d, my father had been posted up to Wolverhampton in the early 1920s, I was born in 1923, I was about, I think about two years old when the family moved to Wolverhampton and I was essentially brought up in Wolverhampton and without realising it, I acquired a bit of a Midland twang, in fact enough that we were formed in to, we were, at Dartmouth, we were formed into tutorships, three of us would be assigned to a tutor for our education, such as it was, and my, one of my co-cadets, Charlie Badcock put the nickname on me of “Oiky Barron” [laugh] cause he had, he had picked up this twang. Obviously my parents either weren’t aware of it or didn’t assign any significance to it because, or I’m sure they would have done something about it. I often wonder whether it had any bearing upon my future career. Anyway, I spent three, three and a half years at Dartmouth and I got involved in some silly escapade. Somebody decided to pinch a rifle from the cadets’ armoury at Dartmouth and I happened to know a bit more about the, the makeup of the British standard military weapon at the time, the short magazine Lee Enfield, and they wanted these one or two guns that they’d pinched, they wanted them stripped down I think, so that they could hide them away more easily. Well Muggins knew a bit more about the rifle than any of the rest of them, so it fell upon me, and the result was of course it was very rapidly discovered and the miscreants must have, must have blabbed the name of their collaborators because I was up before the Commanding Officer in no time at all and the result of that was that in the spring of 1940 the Admiralty informed my parents that they didn’t think I was suitable material for a naval officer and so I was ejected. And this again was a subject which was never discussed at home. The war was on for one thing and my mother and young brother who was about three years old at the time, were evacuated to Wales where we rented a farmhouse for the holidays and so it was, it wasn’t a no subject, but if my mother had been on the spot she would no doubt would have probed my frailties, but she wasn’t, so she never did and father was, of course, commuting up to London. We lived in, we moved to Dulwich by the way just before the war and so nobody made any enquiries. My father just went to work and the first thing he did was to put me in to a crammers establishment in Holborn, the University Tutorial College in Red Lion Square, which just off Holborn to get my matriculation so that I could get into university and that duly happened and in the autumn of 1940 I was enrolled in the City and Guilds Engineering College to get a degree in Mechanical Engineering. I don’t know what I’d have done with it when I’d got it, but again the war was on so nobody knew what anybody was going to do with anything, in fact. And when I got to the City and Guilds I discovered that the University Air Squadron was still a going concern although they no longer did any flying training, they, if you joined the university air squadron at, in London you joined the air force as a u/t pilot, which I did in November 1941 and that had two advantages. One was that I acquired the airman’s number of 1398741 and having a 1 3 number had some advantages in the following few months and we did the ITW – the Initial Training Wing – which was the square bashing and all that sort of thing and so come the summer of 1942, by which time I had twice failed the, what was it, the not the, it was the, oh god I’ve forgotten what the examination was called, but it was the intermediate BSE. I suppose it was the equivalent of the higher, the higher matriculation, anyway it was the entry exam for the university and I failed that twice. It was in the days before they had – hm, what you call it – before it was, you had modular examinations; you took the whole lot and if you failed one subject or a couple of subjects you had to take everything again. And one, I think the first year I failed physics and passed chemistry and the second year I passed chemistry and failed physics, so I finished up in the July of 1942 without any academic qualification and I was called for the colours and by then they were all 1 8s so the fact that I was a 139, that was a bit of a one up to the other erks. Plus the fact that we’d been issued with the standard RAF uniforms with the standard brass buttons, not the chrome ATC buttons which we should have had as we were part of the Air Training Corps, and being a diligent young man, I’d polish my buttons very, very diligently, so diligently in fact that the raised portions of the eagles on my brass buttons had holes in them [laugh]. The drill corporals thought that was terrific you know; greatly admired that was. So there I was at ACRC, the Air Crew Receiving Centre, or arsey tarsey as it was generally know, as a, promoted to leading aircraftsman ready for the next stage. And the other thing I discovered that during that time the rules had changed and I was no longer a u/t pilot, I was a u/t pilot/navigator/bomb aimer, PNB. They changed the rules so that, you know, if you failed they had a wider field to put you into and I was posted, I spent about a fortnight I think at St John’s Wood and then I was posted down to Brighton to another receiving centre. I think that one was called, you know, I’ve got the documents there if you want the actual proper terminology, but it was the, I think it was an Aircrew Distribution Centre. And we were a very polyglot lot that was in our squad, we had several soldiers who’d re-mustered to the air force. They got fed up with, with you know, being soldiers doing nothing in Britain and there was some [emphasis] re-mustered aircrew. There was one chap I remember, Douglas, D.E. Batten who claimed to have been the rear gunner sole survivor of a Manchester which was shot down over Belgium in presumably 1940, late ‘40 or ‘41, or would have been ‘42, yes ‘42. I looked him up in Chorley’s encyclopaedic list of all the Bomber Command casualties and there was no mention of this chap’s name, so he, probably another line shooter who was, who just decided to change his trade, but yeah, I spent about a fortnight at Brighton, it was very pleasant, it was a nice summer, 1942, sunny and that. We didn’t apprehend the danger from the Messerschmitt 109’s which were sent over to strafe the gasworks just three or four miles up the road from where we lived in Brighton. So we carried on and then after about a couple of weeks I was sent to Sywell in Northamptonshire which was an Elementary Flying School, Flying Training School of the RAF’s to be graded as to our suitability for pilot navigator or bomb aimer. You did about twelve or fourteen hours in Tiger Moths and I emerged as a suitable candidate for pilot training. And then after that it was up to Heaton Park and I arrived at Heaton Park, Manchester, in about middle or late October, September, yes, September 1942, and to await posting to some school for pilot training. Well in fact I mouldered at Heaton Park for about five months because the rumour had it that one of the troopers had been sunk with great loss of life and so there was a hold up on cadets being shipped away abroad. But in fact what we didn’t know of course all the training was being held up to give priority to the troops being shipped to North Africa for the invasion of West and North Africa. So it wasn’t in fact until April 1943 that I was posted out of Heaton Park. In fact I was posted out twice. I was there all kitted up in my webbing and everything else and when my name was called out with one or two others and I was told I was off the draft and I was to go back to me billet. Well, no explanation was given, and like everywhere else at the time, you weren’t told if you didn’t need to know, you weren’t told and if you asked you were not very popular, you didn’t ask questions, you just obey orders. So I stayed there for about another two or three weeks, and then we finally did push off, we boarded this train and in the early hours of the morning we disembarked on the quayside which we later found was the Clyde and there was the bulk, the vast grey bulk of the Queen Elizabeth waiting to take us somewhere else. And I think, I say I, I can’t speak for anybody else, but because, I don’t think we discussed these things, I mean some blokes chatted to each other about what was going to happen and what was happening and so on. I didn’t, I suppose I was too well disciplined. Excuse me, I must go and have a pee I’m afraid, I’ve got a very loose. As I say, I mean as far as I was concerned, oh yes, we’re fireproof the Queen Elizabeth, you know, rocketing along at thirty.
[Other]: Are you all right darling?
AB: Yes thank you my darling.
[Other]: Apparently the docs have just phoned, they say have been trying to phone us all morning. The phone hasn’t rung.
AB: I thought we were fireproof, it wasn’t till I read quite recently that I discovered that we actually sailed from the Clyde about two days after the biggest convoy submarine conflict of the North Atlantic during the war. Two convoys left Canada, one was a slow convoy I think, something like about five to eight knots and the other was a fast convoy, eight to twelve or eight to ten knots, something like that, anyway, they sailed at a time they met more or less in the middle of the Atlantic and so did a whole lot of, what is it, I forget what the Germans called their, their groups of u-boats, their u-boats were sort of formed into groups of fifteen or twenty, something like that, and they were strung out in a line north south more or less in the middle of the Atlantic, and when one of them spotted anything interesting they’d send out a signal and they’d all converge on this spot. This had happened that there had been this tremendous battle I don’t know how many merchant ships and u-boats were sunk, but a great number, and we just missed that, it would have been, we wouldn’t have had a chance I don’t suppose if we’d been a couple of days earlier. Anyway we got to Canada and we were duly sent to a Manning Depot, the RAF Manning Depot at Moncton. I really don’t remember much about that. I was a, I think I was a, I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t disinterested, I just, I never kept a diary of course, for one thing, and what letters I wrote home would have been fairly heavily censored and I’m quite sure that I wouldn’t have included anything interesting in them, if I had, and my parents didn’t bother to keep them or anything so I’ve no written record of what I got up to in Canada, it’s only just memory and as far as I was concerned Moncton, you know, the lights were all on, you could come out of the mess at eight or nine o’clock and then go to the cinema, you know, everything went on until the wee small hours, I don’t think the, none of the vittling or anything like that made any great impression on me. And anyway, in due course we were marshalled on to a train, again I don’t remember quite how spartan the train was, fairly spartan I expect, for our trip across Canada and I don’t know at what point we were informed where we were going, we just went and what impressed on me, I remember though being impressed by the Great Lakes, this, the fact that this train was umpteen carriages long and we wound our way along the north coast of I think it’s Lake Superior, the top lake anyway of the Great Lakes and you could see the front of the train from a way in the distance there somewhere, and we wound our way across and we stopped here, there and names were called out and men dropped off and they were posted to all sorts of exotic places like Saskatchewan and Assiniboine and Swift Current and so on and the only thing I remember of that was that somewhere out on this the over the Prairies which was flat as a pancake and featureless as a pancake and there was an edifice which would have done service as a bus stop in Britain and there were two or three civilians lounging against this building and two of them at least were fairly obvious of Red Indian origin and as the train pulled out sort of a couple of wags leant out and went [indian noise] these two chaps sort of lurched forward as if they probably would have hauled him out and done him if they’d, if the train hadn’t got away. Anyway, we ended up at Calgary as far west as the RAF’s aerodromes stretched and from Calgary we were, some of us were shipped up to an aerodrome called - what the devil was it called – Red Deer? No, that was the nearest town. Boden, Boden Ontario, Boden Alberta, and the nearest town was Red Deer and you know, a number of us got out and that was it and we did our, started this flying training and I got to the point where I was sent up on my first solo and I think I took about an hour and a half on this first solo; I know I touched down, several, more than once, several times, and sort of took off again because I didn’t think I’d made it properly and at the end of it I was sent up for another go around with the Chief Flying Instructor, at the end of which he said that he didn’t think I was suitable for pilot training, what did I fancy? And I thought to myself PNB, navigator bomb aimer. No, I don’t think I’d like to be a bomb aimer, what – fly to Germany in a blacked out bomber and drop the bombs and then fly home again. I had no idea that the [cough] that the bomb aimer in fact did a lot more than that: he helped the pilot, he helped the navigator, he helped anybody who needed it, and he manned the guns if necessary but I still didn’t fancy it anyway, I wouldn’t have fancied it. I’ll be a navigator. Then I thought no, I don’t want to be a navigator and fly in a blacked out bomber to Germany, I don’t know why I didn’t consider any other option of a navigator’s work. So I thought about it a bit more and then thought I’d be a Nav B, which was the navigator/bomb aimer which was the equivalent of the pre-war observer in the days when there was just a pilot and an observer. The pilot flew the aeroplane, the observer did everything else. He, he navigated the plane to wherever it was going and he dropped the bombs when they got there, he took the photographs if they wanted them and so on. So I said I’ll be a Nav B, which I suppose was quite a good choice and I was at the RC, Canadian Air Force Manning Depot, Edmonton at the time because obviously it was the nearest suitable dumping ground and there were a whole lot of Canadians on their preliminary training of course and a whole lot of Commonwealth airmen like myself who were having a go at something else, you know. There were chaps who’d been and got within a few weeks of getting their wings and had done something naughty, probably low flying, and been turfed out because the RAF was very strict on discipline like that, you know. You, they were very strict on low flying because a great many airmen killed themselves low flying because they thought they knew it all and they didn’t. And so I spent another two or three weeks at Edmonton which was quite good fun actually, we just mucked about and wasted our time, there was no training of any call, we weren’t taught anything, we could just do what we liked more or less and that’s what a lot of them did. The nerve had it or the word had it, that the Canadians had, they had big parade squares on all their stations and the Station Headquarters was built on the one side of this square and marked off with posts and everything and it had the flag, and when you went past the flag you saluted the flag. Well, that didn’t suit the Commonwealth airmen, particularly the Australians and that, and the Brits: they didn’t go for this saluting the flag so we would march all the three other sides of the square to avoid going past the flag. But the Australians took it one stage further: they commandeered the fire axes from the barrack blocks we were in because they all wooden barrack blocks and there were fire axes at strategic points and the Australians pinched the fire axes and chopped down the flag pole, anyway that was another thing. So then we were posted to, for the next training I was, for the next stage in our training and I was posted to Canadian Bombing and Gunnery School at Mountain View, Ontario, which is just about in the middle of Canada and that was about a, it was about a week’s journey, something like that and I was issued with a huge ticket, was about a yard or more long all folded up and sent on me way. For some reason, I don’t know why, I hitch-hiked down from Edmonton to Calgary, although the transportation covered this and that was interesting. I tried flagging down, um, what did I do? I think I tried, I tried flagging down a hearse and the chap said oh there’s a three hundred pound woman in there, I didn’t sort of really quite understand how heavy three hundred pounds was in human weight, and anyway they took me a few miles and then they dropped me off. I tried I think a young couple who were honey, honeymooning and they took me a few miles and then a vehicle stopped and it was full of Ukrainians because the Prairies were heavily, were heavily colonised by Central Europeans, the Ukrainians particularly, because when the American and Canadian railways were pushing their way through hostile Indian territory of course, were pushing their way through to the west they needed staff to, to live in settlements along the way which were refuelling stops for the railways, they had water and they had timber and of course that progressed as they wanted to, they wanted to settle these people, not just have them as, as settlers, so they canvassed Central Europe to find places which were similar in climate and soil where people would come and settle and live there and the Ukraine proved to be a very fertile place, and that’s where the North American tumble-weed came from apparently. The tumble-weed was endemic in the Ukraine and when they brought their seed with them, they brought the tumble-weed seed as well so the tumble-weed came from the Ukraine. Anyway, this car was full of Ukrainians and somehow crammed me in and took me a few more miles and I ended up in a van that was taking eggs to market in Calgary and then from Calgary I went west to see what Victoria was, Vancouver were like because my grandfather, maternal grandfather, had been in the navy in those parts, well so we understood anyway. He had a number of souvenirs of western Canada and China, we don’t quite know where those came from, anyway, I went there and then got on the train and about a week later I got out at a place, well I don’t know what the place was I got out, but anyway it was the railway station for Mountain View, Ontario and it was Canadian Number 6 B and G School. And that was very pleasant. We worked the Canadian system, that was we worked ten days and then we had a four days off, then we worked another ten days and another four days off and so on. It was a polyglot station too. Excuse me. We got a half a dozen New Zealanders, we got, we got about the same, I think, Canadians too. Some of them were sergeants and they were like the chaps back in England they re-mustered they decided that they didn’t want to stay in the Canadian Army doing nothing any more so they joined the, they re-mustered to the air force. There was one Canadian Jew, Moses Levine, and I think all the rest were made up of Brits, so it was a polyglot course. We spent about six or eight weeks there, very pleasant: it was the summer, it was hot as far as I, we were issued with khaki uniforms. The locals took us down on the beach, because we were on the shore of Lake whatever it was, Lake Eyrie or Lake, I think Lake Eyrie, we were on the shores of that and they took us down for a weenie roast [laugh] an introduction to these rather peculiar North American sausages, the weenies, the German sausages. And then at the end of that, oh we used to go up in twos and threes, it depended, we flew up in Ansons to do bombing, bombing training and Bolingbrokes to do gunning training. The Boligbroke was the Canadian, the Canadian made Blenheim and you had, I think you had four aspiring gunners and one lot of bullets had red paint on them, one lot had green, I think another lot had yellow and another lot were plain, and you used to fire at a Harvard which was, which was a trainer, single seat, well it was a, I say it was a single seat trainer, it was a trainer for the pilots who were destined to go on to single seat, to become single seat fighter pilots. And we were, the train on those things they used to count the number of coloured holes - if any - and you know, assess your ability from that. And then the gunnery, the bombing was done in Ansons, which dropped little, I think they were fifteen pound bombs, they were bomb shaped, and they let off a puff of smoke when they hit the ground and there were observers in towers on either side of the range and they used to line up on these exploding bombs and from that they’d assess your accuracy. So that was the bombing, the gunnery and then it was off to navigation school. Well up we went to Quebec. [Laugh] We got out there and they said: ‘No you’re too early, you’re not due for the next, you’re next due for the fortnight so, you know, buzz off on leave.’ So off we went on leave again! I and a few others decided to go down to New York and that was, as a boy one of my favourite articles of reading was the Great World of Adventure and they were death defying stories beloved of the old Victorians of the white man against the black man and the red man, and there were you know, tales of Africa and North America and all these forts, Fort Ticonderoga and other places on the, on the border between English America and well, it was of course French Canada. I don’t think the Americans ever, well they did see themselves, they had, I mean Louisiana and Alabama and these southern states were American, Canadian American but the northern states were French Canada and anyway I hitch-hiked and stopped off to have a look at places like Fort Ticonderoga and other places that I had read about which had been reconstructed and I remember I had a lift from an American naval lieutenant commander and he said what are you doing, I was going to New York and he said, oh I want to catch that bus or something, so he put his boot down and he had me on the edge of the back seat clutching the edge of the back seat as he went screeching along trying to overtake this bloody bus! He did in the end and I got on that and went down to New York and did all the sights, went up the Rockefeller Centre and oh you know, all the things, and being a very um, a very, what’s the word, erm, I can’t think of the word anyway, I didn’t know nothing about anything, I didn’t know what sex was, I didn’t know anything about anything like that, you know, and so, which is probably just as well cause I never got in to any trouble and I had a good enough time in New York. Then it was back to work and learning how to be a navigator and we were paired up for that and I was paired up with a, one of the New Zealanders, Johnnie Johnson, came from Christchurch, in er, he’d been a schoolteacher Johnnie Johnson had, and I enjoyed that, I did anyway, it was great fun. Learning where all the stars were. I remember when I was a small boy in Wales on holiday. I mean it was, I mean that was absolutely perfect viewing weather and my father trying to point out different constellations and it was just a jumble of, jumble of stars you know, and you couldn’t tell one from another, I mean now when you know the, you’ve been taught the stars I mean on a good night yes, so and so Betelgeuse and Bellatrix and all the rest of them and the Plough and that. They had a trainer, a celestial trainer which was like the thing they use in um, oh god, in museums and observatories where they have projections of all the stars and they can show you what any constellation looked like at any time within the last twenty, thirty, forty thousand years, something like that. Very interesting. If you, but again, many, many years before I came to appreciate the value of the stars. Anyway, so in due course I passed out in January 1944 as a Navigator B; I think I was top of the course, anyway, very near the top of the course, second or third. And again, did I have the inevitable leave? No, I don’t think I did actually. I think we were posted. Oh yes, I did have leave of course as I was commissioned and I had to get a uniform and everything, so I had ten days or a fortnight’s leave before boarding a train to go down to the Bahamas. Oh that was, you think oh gosh that’s a bit of a plummy sort of posting but in fact the general opinion was the chaps weren’t very keen on it because the buzz word was that all the chaps from headquarters in Washington and other places where the RAF had you know, posts buying aeroplanes, selling bombs you know, and doing everything else necessary for the conduct of the war, and the rumour was it had, rumour was it that these chaps used to swan off and have a good time there and you know, and keep an eye on the RAF cadets or whatever they were, who were training, but it was all bloody, bloody word of it, of any these chaps, not likely – I mean would you have gone down to the Parade Ground to see how the chaps are getting on? Or yes, I’d like a flight in a Liberator, or something else, whatever they were flying, you know, just to see how the chaps are getting on? Not bloody likely! You’d be off down the nearest well, place of disrepute. So in fact it was quite enjoyable, quite enjoyable and come August ‘44 there I was, it was different, again I was different from the others, it was a bit like arsey tarsey, you know, I was the odd bod, you know, I hadn’t gone through the Stansted - the Stansted? - the standard training rigmarole, I got to, I got to 111 OTU as it was called at Nassau in the Bahamas and me and the pilot were odd bods again because there were two sets of training: the first set of training was on the twin engined Mitchell, which was one of the American light bombers, it was the one that the Americans used to flew off the aircraft carriers to bomb Tokyo just to frighten the Japanese and anyway the normal practice was that you’d get two pilots put together and a navigator and they would be the basic crew of a B25. Well it didn’t happen with us. As far as we were concerned, old Pop Hedges, he was called Pop because he was twenty six, and he was quite old was Pop, worked for the [unclear] Smoke Company I think, in Watford, anyway he was, Pop and I were put together but we had a staff pilot too who was actually captain of the aircraft all the time and we flew all these exercises and so on and then we were posted across to Oaksfield which was where the Liberators operated from, the B24 Liberator which was the RAF’s long range reconnaissance anti-submarine aircraft, excuse me, and you were there crewed up with a pilot who’d, who’d um, no you weren’t actually, because the chaps who came across from, oh god, from what’d I say, Oaksfield, anyway, they came across, the chaps who’d been training on the, on the twin engined, came across as a captain and second pilot and navigator crew and they picked up RAF elements, wireless operators and air gunners who’d been shipped out from England and they made up Liberator crews. We came across and we were put under the command of a pilot, an RAF pilot who’d done about a half a tour with the RAF and was sent to the Bahamas to take a command. He was going to be a captain and so we were put under the command of a little Scotsman, Scotty Steel, and I was the second navigator to Freddie Freek, who’d done again, a half a tour as a navigator in Coastal and we had a half tour wireless operator, near time you went, near time I went I suppose., so that was it.
NM: Tell you what, Andrew that’s a good place to stop, for now and we will pick this up again.
AB: The demise of Andrew Barron at Nassau!
NM: Good place to stop, in the Bahamas isn’t it!
[Other]: Ah yes!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Andrew Barron. One
Creator
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Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-04-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarronAJK190408, PBarronAJK1901
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Navy
Format
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01:02:46 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Andrew was born in Chichester in 1923. The family moved to Wolverhampton when he was about two years old and then to Dulwich just before the war. When he was 13 or 14 his mother enrolled him at the Royal Naval College at Dartmouth, where he spent over three years as a cadet. Following a silly escapade, he was expelled from the Royal Navy. He attended the City & Guilds Engineering College during 1941-42 to get a degree in mechanical engineering. Andrew joined the University Air Squadron and spent a few weeks at St. John’s Wood before being posted to Brighton to an aircrew distribution centre. He was then sent to RAF Sywell, an elementary flying training school. Following a few weeks on Tiger Moths, Andrew was sent to Heaton Park to await pilot training. In April 1943 he sailed on the Queen Elizabeth to Canada for a manning depot at Moncton. Andrew chose to be a navigator / bomb aimer and spent some time at Edmonton and Mountain View. They went to various bases for training on different aircraft and then to a navigation school in Quebec. After he passed out in January 1944 as a navigator, Andrew was commissioned and had leave before going to the Bahamas where he flew on B-25 and B-24.
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943-04
1944-01
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Bahamas
Canada
Alberta
New Brunswick
England--Devon
England--Northamptonshire
England--Sussex
England--Dartmouth
England--London
New Brunswick--Moncton
Québec
Ontario--Belleville
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
aircrew
B-24
B-25
Bombing and Gunnery School
Flying Training School
navigator
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Sywell
station headquarters
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1258/17168/PBarronAJK1901.2.jpg
f6b3bac684a11f7127d93f5570e15270
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1258/17168/ABarronAJK190418.2.mp3
06ecd8bdb880ea29191d52bee25f38a6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barron, Andrew
Andrew James Kelton Barron
A J K Barron
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Andrew Barron (1923 - 2021, 163695 Royal Air Force) He flew 38 operations as a navigator in 223 Squadron at RAF Oulton flying B-24s.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-10
2018-04-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Barron, AJK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: This is Nigel Moore with Andrew Barron. It is now the 18th of April 2019 and I’m picking up with Andrew from the first part of the interview from where he was being posted to 111 OTU in the Bahamas from his training in Canada. So Andrew, would you like to take us on from there please.
AB: Yes. Well, I think I regaled you with the thing of the train journey across the plains of Canada. The, what do they call it? The something shield. This, there’s a huge granite shield which, which covers central Canada and borders the Great Lakes, I think it’s Lake Superior, the topmost of the Lakes and the journey took, I don’t know, two, three, four days, I’ve no idea, I didn’t keep any record I don’t even remember what our sleeping arrangements were on the train; there must have been sleeping arrangements. The thing stopped every so often and threw out a number of cadets for the various places until we got to Calgary which was the terminus and some of us were transported to this RAF Training School Boden, Alberta and I restarted the pilot training and managed to take about, I think, an hour, an hour and a half or so for my solo which convinced the, the management and myself that I wasn’t very good pilot material and so I had the choice, having been re-mustered to pilot, navigator or bomb aimer and of the number I decided on the Navigator B which was the equivalent of the pre-war observer who did everything. He navigated the plane, he dropped the bombs when they got there, he took the photographs if necessary: you name it he did it. And so I had an interlude at the Canadian Air Force Manning Depot at Edmonton which was partly of course full of new recruits waiting to be sent off for primary training and it was partly where the residue, the naughty boys and the failures were gathered together for re-mustering and I think I said about the Dominion troops’ antipathy to having to salute the Canadian Air Force flag on the parade ground and the Australians took it to the extent of getting the fire axes and chopping the flag pole down. I was more sort of phlegmatic about it and I would march round the other three sides of the square rather than go past their bloody flag and salute it. And I spent about, I don’t know, two, three weeks, four weeks at Edmonton and then I was posted to Bombing and Gunnery School at -
[Other]: Hello! Oh you’re behaving yourself, you’ve got your feet up!
NM: Good afternoon.
AB: We’re switching it off.
AB: So anyway I was posted to Mountain View, which was Number 6 Royal Canadian Air Force Bombing and Gunnery School in Ontario, not very far from Trenton which was the Canadian Cranwell, not that made any difference, and I had a fortnight, I think, to get there so I took advantage of that to, when, I had transport I suppose from Edmonton down to Calgary because the two railways, the, anyway the two major Canadian railways, one went through Edmonton, one went through Calgary and my ticket was from Calgary to Ontario so I had to get down to Calgary and for some reason, I’ve no idea why, I hitch-hiked because I must have had transportation provided from Edmonton and I had a number of things: I had a lift in a Model T Ford, I had a lift in a rickety old car which was full of Ukrainian settlers in, in Canada, there were about a dozen of them in this vehicle but they got me in somehow, with my kit and I ended up in Calgary in a small van full of eggs going to market in Calgary. And from Calgary I went west through the Rockies to Vancouver because my maternal grandfather had, as far as I know, when he was in the Royal Navy, been at Esquimalt which was the naval base on the island of Victoria, which was offshore from Vancouver and so I went there and it was interesting and I looked at the totem poles that were preserved there and I went to a National Park, which I don’t know if the park was named or anyway, running through this park was the Capilano Canyon which was about a hundred and twenty feet deep and was spanned by a rather rickety wire rope bridge. I wouldn’t have done it these days, I’d have had forty fits at the dangers, but in those days I went across this bridge without any qualms and looked down at the, at the waters roaring along a hundred and twenty feet below me and then I got on the train and went back to, and started on the voyage across Canada. And I had a marvellous ticket, it must have been about a yard long and you tore bits off, there were, you tore a bit off for breakfast and another bit off for the sleeping car and another bit off for lunch and so it went on across the country and my researches afterwards revealed that we went across at the magnificent speed of about forty nine miles an hour [laugh] across Canada! It took about, I don’t know, about four days and we arrived at Mountain View which was a typical Canadian military station, two story wooden hutments which were the barrack blocks or barrack blocks and we started our training. Several days ground work and then we took to the air and the bombing training was done in Bolingbroke aircraft which were the Canadian built Blenheim bomber and I think we, oh I don’t know when we went up in twos or, twos, oh we did our gunnery, no sorry, I got that wrong, we did our gunnery in the Bolingbroke, because like the, the Blenheim bomber it had a mid upper turret and we took three or four cadets at a time and we fired bullets which were daubed with paint: green, red, nothing, and, white, no not white, it must have been three, must have been just green and red and blank and you fired at a drogue target, like the same sort of thing as the windsock on an airfield and some hardy characters in a Harvard would fly along with, trailing this drogue behind them two or three hundred yards behind them and you’d fire at this thing and they’d count the number of coloured holes in it and that was your score and it was the bombing which was done in the Canadian built Ansons, the good old Anson and we flew and dropped little replica bombs, they were, I think they weighed about twelve or fifteen pounds and when they hit the ground they let off a little puff of smoke and chaps in observation towers took bearings of these puffs of smoke and of course got your, the position of your strike from that and so it went on. We did, er, actually, if you’d like to grab my log book there and will tell you what my brilliant score was, or if you’re not particularly interested!
NM: Well, we will catch up with your log book later if that’s okay.
AB: Anyway, we did about, I suppose it was about two months I think, at B and G and we were assessed on that. And we had a polyglot course. There was six New Zealanders and about a half dozen Canadians, some of whom were re-mustered; they were ground tradesmen. We had a couple of sergeants I think, got a photograph of them somewhere and then the rest was made up with Brits. We had one strange character, we had a Canadian Jew, Moses Levine, who came from Montreal – where else - and we worked the Canadian system, we worked ten days and then we had four days off and then we had another ten days and another four days off which was rather nice because we were able to get off on sightseeing and we went to Toronto which wasn’t very far away. We went to Niagara which surprised me, I’d expected, reading the books, my adventure books, when I was a boy, I’d expected that this, these enormous falls would be out in the middle of nowhere, but they weren’t. They were out in the middle of bloody houses and buildings and all sorts of things, which was a bit disappointing really, but nonetheless exciting, the Niagara Falls. We just looked at them, we didn’t go down on the boats and get wet, I don’t suppose we could afford it, those days. And then I had another spell; I went to Detroit and was entertained by an American family and introduced to this weird system of American house numbering, you know, they were in a house number sort of twelve thousand three hundred and sixty seven, or something like that, but in fact it was the, this grid system of long straight roads and they were divided up into blocks and the blocks were numbered in these weird sort of twelve thousand and ten thousand and what have you. Interesting. And then having successfully passed that, we were posted, or I was posted to Navigation School which was Quebec, Ancienne-Lourette, just outside an airfield a few miles outside Quebec city and away we went, and got there they said, ‘you’re too early you’re on the next course. Go away, go away for a fortnight and come back and join the next course!’ So away we went. I went, several of us, went down to New York, I forget how we got down there, no idea, probably went by bus or something, anyway, we went down to New York and I stayed at a, stayed at, not the Army and Navy, the, oh gawd, what’s the er, the military organisation, they’re not military, they called themselves military and they go around towns playing bands and they run, and they run anti-drinking, anti-drinking - the Salvation Army! That’s the one. They, the Salvation Army they ran, in my opinion, they ran the best canteens and the best hostels for servicemen during the last war. And anyway, I stayed in one of them, and did all the sights in New York, you know, went to the, went up the Rockefeller Centre or something, I think was the tallest building in New York at the time and we were, you know, given tickets to various shows which was good fun. The, it, rather strange to British eyes, they, you go to the cinema and sort of half way through the cinema showing there’d be a break and there’d be a stage show that’d come on. I don’t remember any of the artists who appeared and we were treated to, you know, like night club showings and being a very, extremely callow youth I didn’t get in to any trouble which I quite possibly might have done had I not been a callow youth. So anyway, that, oh and we went to the Statue of Liberty and that was interesting. And we met Americans who’d got no idea who we were and what we were and on being introduced to a Scotsman amongst our numbers they: ‘Is he on our side?’ Very ignorant of the outside world the Americans were, and still are in my opinion, but so anyway that filled in the period and I must have caught the bus or the train or something back to Quebec and the business started in, the serious business of learning to be a navigator and it was a, it was about a four month, four or five month course. The times, the lengths of the courses during the war varied; it depended upon supply and demand, you know. If, if the chop rate had been particularly high, losses high, and the RAF were short of airmen then the course length, core, was shortened and you got trained as a pilot in about five months. If times were easy and it, there, there weren’t the casualties it took six months to train you. I forget what ours was, at Ancienne-Lourette, look it up in my log book but it doesn’t matter really, we got to Anciennes-Lorette in the, I think in the September. I had no idea, not the faintest idea, I guess some chaps did know, but the Quebec Conference had only just finished, the Quebec Conference where Churchill and Roosevelt and all the other bigwigs had met in the Chateau Frontenac I think, the big posh hotel on the outskirts of Quebec, but I’d no idea, nor had I any idea that Wing Commander Guy Gibson, of Dambuster fame, had been sent out to North America to visit the various training establishments and stir up the troops and encourage them to go out and get shot down. I had no idea he’d been out there, he wanted to keep him out of the way actually. So anyway we settled down to training and learned how to be navigators. We did about a hundred hours flying, or just over a hundred hours flying, again in the sturdy Anson, a rather more stable machine than the Ansons that were doing all the flying in Britain; they were the original Mark I Ansons, and the ones in Canada had a wooden fuselage and they were all enclosed of course because of the rigours of the weather there and were generally a more formidable aeroplane and we did our navigation in them and the drill was that we were settled, [rustling] settled into pairs and I was paired up with Johnnie Johnson, a New Zealander, and the drill was that you flew out to some point, you navigated out to some point and the second navigator oh, he took photographs of things and did all sorts of things, sort of took bearings and generally made himself useful and when you got to, hopefully you got, well of course you did [emphasis] get to the place you were aiming for, because the pilots were all ex bush pilots who’d forgotten more about the countryside they were looking at than we’d ever likely to know! They knew the country like the back of their hands so of course if you were a little bit away from where you should have been going the pilot, he closed it all up for you so you could put on your chart where you had actually been and then he’d take you there and the other chap would fly back, would navigate you back to your base while you did all the fiddly bits and that went on. At the end of January we had our final tests, and final exams and passed out in due course as navigators and you knew, you knew what to do but your ability to do it was probably rather doubtful. So anyway the next step was that I was posted to a General Reconnaissance School on Prince Edward Island and the idea of that was, you spent about six or eight weeks at GR School and there were two of them: one was Canadian and one was British and I was of course sent to the Canadian one and that was, I had, I think again the mandatory two weeks’ leave to get there because I was commissioned and had to go and get my smart officers uniform which I did at Ottawa, Canada’s capital. Everything was covered in snow so I got really no particular recollection of that. Actually, I do have a recollection of it because it was the second time that I was very nearly airsick. We were, the whole of Prince Edward Island was completely obliterated in snow and ice and quite indistinguishable from the mainland or the Gulf of, the Gulf of St Lawrence and we, one of our exercises was flying at low level, something like about a thousand feet, or few hundred feet across the, this snow and ice and lying in the nose of the Anson with sort of hot, rubbery air blowing in your face and it was remarkably bumpy, this, this icy landscape, or ice-scape, and I was very nearly airsick. Anyway, oh, and it was a bit of a laugh really, because you’d, the exercises were to fly to Halifax which was one of the pushing off points for the convoys across the Atlantic and you’d fly down to Halifax and you’d count the number of ships in it and what sort of ships they were and fly back report that and the afternoon’s detail would fall on you and quiz you: what was there, how many were there, what were they like, did you see any battleships and so on and so on and you’d give them all the gen of course when they got back in the late afternoon or early evening, they say they’d all bloody well gone – the harbour was empty! [Laugh] So anyway we spent about four to six weeks doing that and we were passed out and I was posted down to 111 OTU, Operational Training Unit, which was Coastal Command’s, I think it was Coastal Command’s one and only operational training unit, it certainly was for the Liberators anyway, and I was posted down there and this wasn’t a very popular posting because everybody thought oooh, Nassau, that’s the, where all the bigwigs, the RAF bigwigs who are on a swanny posting to Washington and places like that in the United States and Canada, that’s where they all go for their leave over there and, you know, they like to go and inspect the troops at the OTU to see what they’re up to, but in actual fact you never saw hair nor hide of the, of these bigwigs at all and Nassau was, it wasn’t a bad posting at all. The only weird thing was that the, there were two bases, one was Windsor Field, I forget what the other was called, one was called Windsor Field and that was where the American B25 twin engined bomber was based and they were used [cough] as the intermediate conversion from the pilots who’d been flying Ansons, who’d got their wings flying Ansons and they converted to these B25 Mitchells and they, they usually had two pilots and a navigator. Well, I was different. I was one, I was with one pilot and I was a navigator on my own with just one pilot who’d trained in Canada, chap called Hedges, Pop Hedges called him Pop Hedges because he was about twenty, sorry, twenty five and therefore quite an elderly person in the aircrew, in the aircrew family. So in fact Pop Hedges and myself flew with a staff pilot from Nassau and then when we’d, when Pop was considered competent, we were, the two of us were posted to the other aerodrome at Nassau where we converted to the Liberator under the care of a pilot from the UK who’d completed about a half a tour on Liberators in the UK and was sent out to be a captain on his own and a pilot, sorry not a pilot, a navigator who’d completed half a tour and was now sent to Nassau to be the Chief Navigator too, and I was to be the second navigator. I’m getting a bit rambling aren’t I? So anyway we did this training in the Liberators and at the end of that there was an exercise, you had to complete an exercise, the Kingsley Exercise, which, in which you flew out to about half way to Bermuda from which had come a destroyer and you had to find this destroyer by you know, your expertise in navigation, which was all very well. Unfortunately the, you had to use two charts and they joined in the middle and there was a one degree longitude overlap. Now when I came to do my navigation I made a mistake: I missed this one degree overlap in the longitude so when it came to the crunch we had to do a radar search for this bloody destroyer, and the result of which was I didn’t do very well on my Kingsley exercise. I mean I would have gone back to the UK as the second navigator, that was my destiny, but it certainly would have delayed my transposition to the first navigator, not that it in the end mattered because we were shipped back to Moncton, the RAF Manning Depot in New Brunswick to await shipping back to the UK and then distribution to our various squadrons or whatever else we were destined for. And we were about three weeks at Moncton when we were suddenly posted back to the UK and flown back. We were shipped up to Montreal and put into a Liberator transport plane and flown back to the UK, where I phoned up my parents and found that the residence no longer existed, it had been flying bombed and was uninhabitable and I’d got nowhere to go when it came to my disembarkation leave, but my parents had scouted round and found accommodation for me, some friends or people they knew in the road in Sunbury on Thames put me up for two or three, for a couple of weeks and I was put up for a while. What had happened was, that a flying bomb had come over and had hit a house about four houses up the road from where we lived, blown that house to bits, blown the next house to bits, and destroyed the next house and the house after that had been pushed over on to ours and made ours totally uninhabitable: broken all the windows, torn off the roof and so on and it all got a little bit disjointed. That’s right, when I got back from that, we sat around at Harrogate in this distribution centre, waiting to be posted, expecting of course to be sent off to the various Coastal Command aerodromes around the country and then the posting list came up and all these crews were sent, were being sent to RAF Oulton, where’s that then, nobody knew, then on the train and we eventually ended up in Norfolk, looking at black painted Liberator bombers and wondering what our destiny was and we found that we were in Bomber Command [laugh] so I ended up in the blacked out bomber flying to Germany, not looking, not seeing what was happening. But much to the surprise and the dislike of most of the rest of my fellow postees who were [beeps] – oh must mind your – who were nearly all of course, all virtually - oh that’s my tea is it, oh – virtually all ex Coastal Command men and that’s what they expected to be going to. [Pause for tea!] Ah! So I ended up in Bomber Command and they said well, you can fly as front gunner if you like for the time – oh that’s right, the task of the squadron was to, initially, to fly what they called Big Ben sorties which were up and down the Dutch coast about fifteen or so miles out to sea from, more or less from the islands, you know, the Scheldt estuary up to, I forget what the name of the, Ijmuiden is it, some? I think it’s Ijmuiden, a town about halfway up the Dutch coast and we were spotting for V2s, the rockets, lifting off, because they thought at the time that the V2s were radio controlled. Well they weren’t actually cause we found that out later, and our job was to send off a signal that one had lifted off. What good it would have done goodness knows, because the, they were supersonic so they were never able to give any warning of their approach and they’d no idea where they were going anywhere. So anyway, like it or not, I did a few exercises in an Oxford which was the equivalent to the, equivalent to the Anson and another RAF twin engine trainer and the squadron had a, had one for communications purposes and it was fitted up with the Gee navigation equipment which we would have to know how to operate because that’s what we would be using in Bomber Command and you know, just one or two flights like that and I went off I think on the 13th of October on my first operational sortie looking for these bloody V2s and I bloody hated it. I was scared stiff, sitting up in this turret. The navigator and the front gunner had to crawl through a tunnel about two foot square which ran along the right hand side of the Liberator, the right hand side of its front nose wheel undercarriage, you had to crawl up that into a compartment [beeping] up front which in the US Air Force housed three men: the navigator, the bomb aimer and the front gunner. In our case it was initially the front gunner and the navigator, and it was draughty, the air came in all over the place of this ruddy gun turret and you could only, the only thing you could see was the deep blue sea below you, we were at about twenty thousand feet, and if you craned your neck round one way or the other and turned the turret you could just glimpse the wings, or the wing tips or perhaps the outer engines. I didn’t like it, I didn’t like it at all. And anyway, I did three of them and then they discovered, by which time they discovered that the V2 was not radio controlled so the Big Bens stopped and the squadron reverted to flying decoy operations. They did two kinds of decoy operations: you flew out with the main force pretending that you were part of the main force and after a time, after you’d cleared the German frontier you broke off in a separate direction and you then started throwing out bundles of metallised paper, they were like chaisy tain, chaisy tain.
[Other]: Daisy chain!
AB: No [laugh].
NM: Paper chains.
AB: Paper chains with metallised on one side and they were cut to the frequency of the German radars so that when they fell out as a bundle and opened and spread out into a great cluster, they looked like a bunch of aeroplanes so that one aeroplane would look like perhaps twenty or thirty aeroplanes so the little force of twenty or thirty aeroplanes which were detached and sent out on a separate heading would look like another main force heading for a different target. Anyway, this was what the squadron was doing. So I was walking through the flight offices, the avenue of flight offices one day when the Nav Leader, who was, I think if I remember, a flight lieutenant on loan from the B17 squadron on the station who’d done a tour and knew what it all was about, anyway he came out of his office and he said: ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘would you like to be Tony Morris’s navigator?’ And I said ‘Yes please.’ Well Tony Morris was one of the Canadian pilots who got a bit too close to the Dutch coast or they got too close to a flak ship, which was one of the ships the Germans had which was covered all over in flak guns and was posted out in estuaries and places like that, and their navigator had unfortunately stopped a piece of flak - in his backside. [Chuckle] And so was uncommissioned, so anyway I was offered poor old Jack Wallace’s place, he survived by the way and came back on ops later on in the next year. But anyway, I got his seat and, and away I went and I’ve often wondered if Tony had realised and, I think Jack Furniss was the Nav Leader, anyway, if the Nav Leader had realised that my sole experience had been you know, just an hour or two in an Oxford on a bit of Gee training but otherwise, I knew what to do, but I really wasn’t, I’d never had to try to do it! I mean the first operational sortie that I did with Tony was the first time that I had ever been entirely and solely responsible for the navigation of the plane from point A to point B and back again, you know unguided, but I did it and it’s hardly surprising that my logs and charts or logs at any rate, are covered all over with the Nav Leader’s blue pencil things - why didn’t you do this and why didn’t you do that and lots of this, but you know, I’d done lots of work but I hadn’t done anything with it, but we got there and back and after that it improved. My, my er, I differed in my ideas with the, than the, from the Nav Leader, the copy book way of navigating in, well really, in the air force, in any conditions, hasn’t changed, you fly along a course you’re given, you fly along a course which you expect will get you to your destination. You check your position and you find that it’s not on the line that you expect to be and if you project the line from where you started to where you are, it doesn’t lead to where you want to be so you have to make a correction. So the copybook way is to project ahead to where you expect to be in say in another ten or fifteen minutes time, well I mean in those days, ten or fifteen minutes time, in those, that time, you then calculate the new course that you’ve got to fly to get to the place that you want to be at. That’s the copy book way of doing it. Well I didn’t entirely agree with that. I mean if I was flying along and I got a position and I found it was off the course that we were supposed to be on, I would say right we are ten degrees off course we need to alter course twenty degrees to get back to where we want to go, so I’d do that, I’d just say to the pilot alter course twenty degrees right or left or whatever it was to get to the proper place, then I’d do it properly: work out the new wind or find out what the difference in the wind was and do it properly. But it, he’d scribble on it, he’d say what’s this? Guestimation? Well it was, yes, but it was intelligent guestimation but in my mind, I mean it was intelligent guestimation, anyway it worked because it was the way I always worked and we never got lost, we got there. We only got lost once [chuckle]. And that was as I say, I only looked out once; we were I think, I think it may have been Cologne and it was cloud covered and it was, they were using what they would call sky marking. The Pathfinder Force released their markers up in the air, blind if you like, and the main force aimed for those markers, instead of aiming for a marker on the ground they aimed for something in the air. Don’t ask me how it was done, I mean it was, you know, a clever business. And anyway, it was very colourful cause there were flares all over the place and I looked out and there were all these brilliant lights and the little twinkling lights which didn’t really register with me at the time with the bursts of the flak shells. It was very colourful. I wasn’t there to sightsee, I mean I was there to navigate and far too many aeroplanes were lost, because crew members did sightsee, gunners looked down on the ground to see what the, see where the bombs were bursting, see what the, all the coloured lights were doing: you weren’t there for that. And as far as I was concerned it was an uneventful tour. I didn’t see what was happening. I’ve got a copy of Mervyn Eustace’s, Mervyn Eustace was our second pilot and his, I want to, I must make another effort to get in touch with Mervyn’s son to see if I can get his assent to well, bluntly, publish Mervyn’s memoirs cause Mervyn wrote his memoirs just for his own and his family’s use. But Mervyn of course was in the cockpit and he saw everything all the time, every time [emphasis] and he, he’s also a bit more, um, dry humour, Mervyn, so I must, and of course his comments on the tour were highly coloured by the fact that he had come from peacetime Canada to wartime England. He went through the mill the same as I did, he went through Nassau and he came from Nassau to England by boat and he was sent to a manning depot of some sort at Chelmsford, no not Chelmsford, Cheltenham, Cheltenham, that’s right, Cheltenham, and of course it was a complete, complete new world to Mervyn, not only, the conditions, I mean the weather conditions, the ground conditions, he said he got hold of a, he bought a bicycle and he cycled round on this and many a time he said he’d have to stop somewhere and ask some of the locals where he was and how to get to Chelmsford and he writes that he thought they must have thought it was a funny old sort of war that this Canadian chap who didn’t know sort of how to, where he was – how did he get on over Germany! [Laugh] But er, and then the food, and the living conditions of course made a complete impact, I think the food, brussels sprouts particularly were a nightmare for poor old Mervyn, but I mean the average Brit at that time, we’d been at war for about five and a half years and the average Brit ate whatever you put down in front of him and was thankful for it, we’d been at war for five and a half years, the privations of British barrack life, I don’t remember them because I was used to the fact that in my father, my parents bathroom at Sunbury on Thames, ice formed on the inside of the windows, [laugh] you were used to bathing in that kind of conditions. But no, Mervyn’s got a lot to, to recount and as I say, in a dry humour he says, he quotes the fact that when they were shot up they were, this, what do you call it - a salvo of shells ringed them and exploded when Wallace was wounded and Wallace was wounded, and he said you know it changed his outlook because he’d, up till then the war had been really, a bit jolly, you know. You’d got a nice uniform, you travelled around the world, you got well paid, but now you suddenly realised that down there there were a bunch of men hopping about and clapping their hands and cheering because they’d nearly shot you down, they nearly killed you, that was what they were there for. [Pause] So anyway that’s how it went on. We, I think we operated at er, a higher rate of work, if you pick up Middlemiss’s I forget what it’s called, it’s the Bomber Command War Diaries 1939 ‘45, if you pick that up, they list every single sortie flown by Bomber Command and the troops who took part, the groups which were scheduled for it and the squadrons in the groups which took part, in squadron, in, it took part. The average squadron I suppose perhaps flew once every week, two weeks, something like that. Well if you look in my log book there were patches where we flew sort of six or seven squadrons more or less on alternate nights because when main force flew: 100 Group flew. In fact 100 Group flew more than that because there were many nights when the main force was stood down, probably because of weather, but they didn’t fly, 100 Group were sent out simply to stir up the Germans, to get them up in the air, [interference] particularly of course towards the end of the war because by then the night fighter force. People say, oh well the night fighter force was a spent force by the, by you know, by the time of Dresden, February ‘45, well it wasn’t exactly a spent force, there were a lot of them and, but it wasn’t as well trained and you know, it was still capable, four hundred aircraft, four hundred [\interference] British aircraft were lost between Dresden, which was on St Valentine’s night and the end of the war. It’s quite a lot of aircraft that, and [pause] but the Germans, they sent out, they harboured their forces, they sent out their aces first, you know the, because they knew that they were the men who wouldn’t go rushing in and attacking the enemy forces when they were out of range. [Timer noise]
[Other]: Sorry about that. It’s my watch.
NM: So can I?
AB: Yes, go on.
NM: You said that a lot of your operations were decoys with Window.
AB: Yes.
NM: Did you just provide the Windows screen or did you ever, always accompany the main force to the target?
AB: Well no, there was, the main stream was, what they called the Mandrel screen, Mandrel was the jammer which jammed the long range German search radars and the Mandrel screen was sent out in pairs, they were, I think they were equipped with Stirlings and they were sent out in pairs over the North Sea and then as the battle line moved east the, that became Holland and north east France, Belgium, the Mandrel screen was sent out and these pairs of aeroplanes would orbit like a racetrack, jamming away, and then every so often they would open a little window in the Mandrel screen so they would let the Germans see what was coming up behind it to confuse them and the Window force would as I say, would probably be leading the main force, the main forces, and I remember one particular raid when we were, where the turning point was Cassel and we came out of the Mandrel screen somewhere over Belgium I think or maybe north east France and then we, somewhere past the, crossing the Rhine, we were at the head of the main force and we broke off and headed for Cassel while the main force behind us carried straight on and it did one or two more zigzags but it ended up sort of pointing elsewhere, and the Window force was also reinforced, very often, by two or three aeroplanes carrying markers and bombs, particularly the Australians, hardly surprising, [Australian accent] they hadn’t come half way round the world, you know just to drop pieces of bloody paper all over Germany! So they insisted upon carrying bombs and they were in Halfaxes which still had all the bomb racks and everything else in them and they carried bomb aimers too, so to add to this bit of realism they would drop a few bombs and markers on some town to give a bit of realism. But it all worked very[interference] well. I mean It worked very well. [\interference]
NM: So did any your trips involve radio counter measures in your B24s?
AB: Sorry?
NM: Were you, did any of your operations involve radio counter-measures, in your Liberator or was it just [unclear]?
AB: Oh yes, I mean there were all sorts of gubbins. The reason why the Liberator and the Fortress were chosen for the role was because we carried an equipment called a Jostle which was a large jamming, piece of well, piece of jamming equipment and it was about two, two and a half three feet in diameter and about five or six feet long, or high whichever way you like to look at it, high, steel enclosed I think to give it a bit of durability and that, as far as I know, transmitted on the, all the known radar and voice channels that the Germans were using and as far as the equipment was concerned to fit it, to have fitted it to a Halifax or a Lancaster, you’d have had to have taken the turret out, lifted it out with a crane or something, drop the Jostle in and then put the turret back in, if it had gone in, as it was, all they had to do was to trundle the, all they had to do was trundle it over a pit, lower the Jostle into the pit, put in a new one and then go off again and the Liberator and the Fortress still had their mid upper turret in situ and serviceable whereas, was the thing with the Lanc or the Halifax, they’d have lost their mid upper armament and seriously depleted the armament of the aeroplane. And then, in addition to that, they would have all sorts of things, with all sorts of comic names: I mean Monica, [interference] Tinsel, Tinsel was the microphone which was in the engine compartment and the pilot would just switch that on and it made this [pause].
NM: You okay? [Pause] You okay?
AB: Hmm? [\interference]
NM: Are you okay?
AB: Oh no, Tinsel, Monica.
NM: So did you know at the time what the Jostle operators were using, and what Jostle was doing or were you not privy to that information at the time?
AB: Oh no, no, you, they were just special operators these two chaps, who were, well they were sort of attached to the crew really, I mean even their position in the aeroplane varied. As far as our aeroplane was concerned, G George, the um, there was a shallow space amidships, above the bomb bay, I think it was aft of the main wing spar and there was this, there was this space, I suppose it was about three or four feet deep and as wide as the fuselage and ten or fifteen, ten or twelve feet long and that had gear in it, I don’t know what, and these two chaps lived in that, they, that was their working position. But in some of the old, the aeroplanes, that was down on the flight deck on our aeroplane, G George, so you went in through the, you went in through the front, starboard, lets see: left port, right to starboard, yes, front starboard nose, bomb, er bomb bay door was operational and open, and you got out to the aeroplane and you ducked under, you ducked under the wing behind the, the engines and you climbed in through this door and as far as the navigator was concerned, in the vast majority of ops that I was on, I was always the last on board because you had such a hell of a lot of work to do and so you were whistled out to the aeroplane and you clambered on board through this open door, chucked all your gear in front of you and operated the lever to close the door and then you went through a doorway and there was the flight deck. And on your left was the wireless operator, on the right was the opening to climb through to the nose and in front of you was steps up to the flight deck itself if you like, with the two pilots. The flight engineer didn’t have any seat or anything, he just stood about like a spare prick, bit like the navigator, but on some of them, the, one of the special operators was in the wireless operator’s position, I don’t know where the wireless operator went to. The wireless operator was a bit of a, he was a bit spare, I mean his job really was only to listen out for signals from base, chief of which was perhaps hopefully the recall, [snort] but that was about all he was able to do, or send out an SOS when it came to it, came to it. That was the main thing really I think.
NM: So tell me about the time you could hear flak over the noise of the engines, it must have been -
AB: Pardon?
NM: Tell me about the time you could hear the flak over the noise of the engines, it must have been pretty close.
AB: Well yes! I mean, [Laugh] I don’t know, we were, I think we were somewhere near Cologne, and obviously we’d got a bit off track and we got the benefit of a flak burst, the er, and say, well close enough to hear it and I wrote in my log: ‘flak, I heard it!’ and the Nav Leader put in: ‘Gee, you must have been scared.’ Well I wasn’t actually, but I bet the others up on top were, who saw it all, I mean especially after they’d had the, you know, they’d had the benefit of the salvo which had put poor old Wallace out of action and given me my job. And I mean it was a bit the same as when they, I don’t know, heard the, hmm -
NM: You also had a near miss with a Lancaster, didn’t you, over East Anglia.
AB: Oh yeah. Yes.
NM: What happened then?
AB: See I mean, matter of luck, I mean there must have been countless, countless near misses of pilots who just managed to see each other in time. I can but presume that in this case the Lancaster pilot saw us in time and was able to pull up and we wendered.
NM: Did you see the Lancaster just as it missed you or did your pilot see it?
AB: Pardon?
NM: Did your pilot see it just as it missed you, the Lancaster?
AB: Yes. You what?
NM: Your pilots, did they see it?
AB: I don’t know, I don’t remember anybody saying anything actually. Well I mean whoever said it was a Lancaster with its wheels down. But, no we never, it’s funny that, you know. After the war it all fell apart, the, Mervyn Eustace disappeared more or less overnight, he was posted off back to Canada. I’m not quite sure about - I never had any, you know, it’s funny I never had any contact with the crew. Whatever books you pick up, you pick up all these books and they all say oh what a marvellous, how the, what a close knit organisation the average Bomber Command crew was, you know, this wonderful system they had where everybody was turfed into a big hangar and you were told to sort yourself out, [pause] I think it was a, it was a, is it, almost I suppose, a perfect system you might say. I remember my [interference] brother in law saying that, at least I went to his funeral and his old skipper who, funnily enough, had been in the, be in the same class as me in Wolverhampton Grammar School, George Sidebottom, saying that you know, they were looking out for a crew and they’d got everybody except a flight engineer and said somebody, one of his new crew came up and said there’s a flight engineer in the next room who’s looking for a crew, said a nice bloke, got a funny sort of name, Mendelski it was, [\interference] and that’s how Vic Mendelski got crewed up. But that never happened to me. As I say, I was just plonked in with Pop Hedges in Nassau and we were plonked in with Pop, with Pop Hedges and Tommy Steele and I was second navigator to Freddie Freak and that was it, no choice. So actually when, I never had really much rapport with them, at Oulton when we first got there, I think they tended, Tommy Steele, Freddie Freak and er, and er, dear god, what was the wireless operator’s name? Hmm. I’ve forgotten what, anyway, the wireless operator. I think they had a rapport because all three of them had done ops on Coastal so, you know, they knew what it was about. I never had any chums. The Canadians, I think tended to live together, hardly surprisingly, and one of the reason was they pooled their food parcels and so they didn’t sort of hang about the mess like we Brits did, but even so, it, so I never had a rapport and then Tony Morris, Tony Morris’s father I think I said, had been English, he’d been in the British Army in the First World War and then emigrated and Tony, when he went on leave, searched out members of the Morris family. Mervyn Eustace’s brother had done, had just done a tour in Coastal Command, no it wasn’t Coastal, in Bomber Command and when he went on leave [pause] you, you, no sorry, I was away somewhere else.
NM: Just one last question for you.
AB: Mervyn used, we used to call him useless, Mervyn Eustace, he used to go off and look out, look up his brother who’d just done a tour in Bomber Command, and they didn’t come anywhere near the mess when they were on leave so I never saw any of them and it was several years [emphasis] afterwards before I made contact and I think [emphasis] I made contact through um, Vowler, Ron Vowler who er, did a lot of research after ex members of 223 Squadron and then Tony Morris, he was a geologist, an oil geologist, and he did a lot of flying through London to the Far East or, you know, where the oil fields were and he always tried to contact me whenever he came through but, and certainly -
NM: Just one last question for you Andrew, when you look back and reflect, what do you think of your time in Bomber Command? What does that time mean to you?
AB: Pardon?
NM: What does that time you spent in Bomber Command, what does that mean to you now looking back over the years?
AB: Well, I don’t know really. I, I mean I don’t think it really sort of meant anything. It was just something which um, [pause] I suppose, I mean I joined the, I joined the University Air Squadron I suppose because I don’t know that I really thought about it actually. Ach, I don’t know really, I never sort of discussed anything with my parents as I say, as I said at the beginning I don’t remember ever being asked if I’d like to become a naval cadet. I was brought up in a, in a background of [pause] – yeah.
NM: Shall we give it a rest? Shall we? Thank you for your time.
AB: Yes, I don’t think I ever really thought, I never thought about what I was going to do after the war or anything like that. I think, I think our tempo of operations in 100 Group, in 223 Squadron was significantly higher than the average main force crew. As I say, if you look at Middlemiss’s diary of Bomber Command, you know, you’ll see that squadrons didn’t fly continuously, I think 100 Group, 223 Squadron flew at a higher tempo than those sort of squadrons, so I suppose from that point of view, yeah, we didn’t really have time to sort of ruminate and think what you were going to do afterwards.
NM: Okay, I think what we’ll do, we’ll finish the interview there, thank you for your time and your memories and -
AB: I felt I’ve been wandering off a bit this afternoon. Did you get that feeling?
NM: No, it’s. Absolutely fine, It was perfect, thank you very much. We appreciate all the information you’ve been able to give us. Thank you Andrew.
AB: [Interference] So what the fellers, up until D-Day didn’t I think realise was that the aircrew Europe was for all aircrew, I mean it wasn’t Bomber Command wasn’t the only part of the air force that was operational after 1939, I mean there was Bomber Command, there was Coastal Command, there was all sorts of people, there were the chaps who fought in France of course as part of the British Expeditionary Force, they were operational aircrew and if they hadn’t had the aircrew Europe they wouldn’t have anything, poor sods.
NM: So you didn’t mind too much that Bomber Command wasn’t recognised.
AB: No, no.
[Other]: It wasn’t appreciated or recognised.
AB: I mean it was a bit distasteful, [\interference] the fact that we had to wait about another seventy years for some recognition and we got the aircrew, we got the -
[Other]: The Bomber Command Clasp.
AB: The Bomber Command Clasp, which I mean was similar to the Battle of Britain and various other clasps for various special operations, but where do you end, end up like the Americans with a - [laugh]
[Other]: Getting a medal for joining, which the Americans do. Five minutes after they’ve joined they’ve got a medal!
AB: Yes, yes. Well, I mean good luck to them. I read a very interesting book recently Mud, Blood and-
NM: Okay, so we’re looking at -
AB: I’ve got the types of tasks that 100 Group had to, or at least the two squadrons had to carry out was, one was just the plain, was the plain spoof target, now that’s Cassel there, now you see we came out on this line, where there’re two arrows, we came out on this line and then we carried on to here and split off up to Cassel to make it look as if we were going to attack Cassel, the rest of the force didn’t, they went off somewhere else to make it appear that way. Then the other thing was when there were no [emphasis] main force operations at all the same sort of spoof force would be sent out just to get the Germans up into the air. Simply. Nothing more, no less than that. And then the other was the target cover where you were sent out with [emphasis] the Pathfinder Force, with [emphasis] the main force to the target and the first plane would be, would be timed on to the target at about five, seven, eight minutes before the bombs were due to go down and you’d fly round and round and Mervyn puts it rather dryly, that everybody would turn on the navigator and say: go on, you know, we’re nowhere near the bloody target, you’re lost, you know, nothing’s happening, we’re the only aeroplane over Germany! And then there’d be the markers would go down and he said then everybody would be clapping their hands and thanking the navigator. And you know, you’d fly round the target for however long you were told and in the meantime, somebody else from your squadron would come up and he’d [emphasis] be circling the target and you’d be just jamming any radars that you, and any voice transmissions that you could hear, or that your operators could hear, you’d be jamming those while you were flying round the target, of course the one you didn’t particularly want was the one where they’d all gone home and they’d left you to tootle along behind them. But I would like to, you know, turn this in to something a little more legible.
NM: Just to explain we are looking a map of Western Europe with Andrew’s pilots, all his operations during the war. [Voice in the background]
AB: The other one that you didn’t want to go near was Hamburg and the Elbe estuary and then of course you’ve got the eastern cities, you’ve got Berlin itself, you’ve got, I’m not sure what that is -
NM: That’s Leipzig.
AB: And there’s, is that? No that’s Munich down there, Dresden’s somewhere in here but they got it later on in the war. Never talked about it. Nobody ever talked, never talked to anybody in the squadron, oh we wasted our evenings singing silly songs, [laugh] singing rude silly songs, most of which I’ve long since forgotten: probably just as well. But you know, there was no glorification about it, was, you know and we’re too bloody busy to worry about things, as I say the, you went into briefing and the [creaking] guards drew the, locked the doors and would have shot anybody who tried anything, and then all the Group Captain, the Station Commander and all the, Navigation Leader and everybody else all trooped on board and the curtains were pulled aside and there was a bloody great map, quarter inch map of Northern Europe with the red lines all over it and you knew where you were going. Well, you didn’t, you knew where everybody, everybody was going and who individually went where, I’ve had no idea. Poor old Richard Ford and other historians have probed us endlessly to try to find out when you knew where we were going, I said I’ve no ideas. [telephone ringing] At some time they would be given the specific route that they were to fly because if you were in one of the spoof things you were all spread out, so that spread was achieved by giving you slightly different positions to which to navigate.
[Other]: They all started off in a group and then they split, and split, and split to make it appear a much bigger group.
NM: Right, yup.
[Other]: That was it, wasn’t it darling?
AB: Yeah, I mean the only thing I can remember is that I used to think that it was a big guessing game, that the German controller was, the German controllers were saying [accent] is it dis vun, or dat vun, or der uder vun, or whatever, you know. But in fact the command, I mean our command, Bomber Command for a start, and then 100 Group Command for a second thing and finally the station itself would get down to the detailed plotting of, well, G George from so-and-so go so-and-so and J Jeep for another one and so it would go on, but when that happened I’ve no idea, you know you just, you just did it, you bloody got on with it.
[Other]: Darling, did you tell Nigel about taking German speaking English people with you?
AB: No I didn’t actually.
[Other]: From time to time, and they used to countermand the orders the Germans were being given and said no, no, no, that’s the British talking to you.
AB: That was quite widespread actually, they were, you know, right throughout main force, there was a lot of that as well, you know, German speaking operators were carried on board to -
[Other]: Countermand the German instructions to their crews.
AB: yes.
[Other]: There was quite a lot of jiggery pokery that we know nothing about!
AB: Yeah.
NM: Well, I think I’ll conclude it there on behalf of the Centre, so thank you very much for your time, both of you.
[Other]: Well thank you for your time!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Andrew Barron. Two
Creator
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Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-04-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarronAJK190418, PBarronAJK1901
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:57:00 audio recording
Description
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Andrew hitchhiked from Edmonton to Calgary and then on to Mountain View by train. Gunnery training was in a Bolingbroke which had a mid-upper turret; bombing training was done in an Anson. Andrew was then posted to navigation school in Quebec for four or five months. He passed out as a navigator and was then posted to a general reconnaissance school on Prince Edward Island for about six to eight weeks. When commissioned he flew on B-24s - the crew went about halfway to Bermuda on an exercise to find a destroyer. Andrew was sent to Moncton where he awaited being shipped back to Great Britain and eventually posted to RAF Oulton in Norfolk where he joined Bomber Command on 223 Squadron. The crew flew in an Oxford on ‘Big Ben sorties’ up and down the Dutch coast spotting for V-2 rockets. Later they did decoy operations flying out with the main force. Andrew then became a navigator on B-24s. He recalled the time when they flew over Cologne and could hear the enemy’s anti-aircraft fire over the roar of their engine. On another occasion they had a near miss with a Lancaster.
Spatial Coverage
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Atlantic Ocean
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Alberta
New Brunswick
Prince Edward Island
Alberta--Calgary
Alberta--Edmonton
England--Norfolk
Germany--Cologne
New Brunswick--Moncton
Québec
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Ontario--Belleville
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Group
223 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
B-24
Bolingbroke
bombing
Lancaster
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Oulton
training
V-2
V-weapon
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/307/8757/PMooreWT1506.2.jpg
ba450a2587f7d4bdd809b39eda3c5fa9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/307/8757/AMooreWT160318.1.mp3
06f88d173f760d9f30a9e3038f1f9794
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Moore, Bill
William Tait Moore
William T Moore
William Moore
W T Moore
W Moore
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Three oral history interviews with William Tait "Bill" Moore (1924 - 2019, 1823072 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He served as a navigator with 138 Squadron.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-28
2016-03-18
2016-07-06
Rights
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Interview Agreement Form - Moore, WT, William Moore-03
Identifier
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Moore, WT
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 18th of March 2016 and I’m meeting with Bill Moore who was an Observer with the RAF and he is accompanied by his friend Tony Boxall. And we’re going to talk about Bill’s life from the earliest days to the periods after the war. So, Bill, could you start by telling us about your early days?
WM: Well, I was, I was born in a town called Dunoon in the West of Scotland in 1924 and I was, at that time, I was the eldest of three children, I became that, and then of course what happened? We moved house from a little single ended cottage and we moved in to a brand new council house. And of course we gradually became a family of five. I was the eldest of course, as I said, with —
CB: Keep going.
WM: With two sisters and two brothers. My, my father was a slater and plasterer, Builder, and my mother had been what later on in life people called them Land Army girls because she’d done that during the First World War and my father had been in the Royal Scots Fusiliers right through, right through the First World War. And later on he, he was, he was taken on ship board to India where they, they actually were the garrison at various towns for a, for a few years up to there, you know. Alright. And then, and then of course what happened was that he came back to Dunoon and met and married my mother and as I say he also then went back into the building trade, you know. That is the sort of life that people did, they were in the army and then back into Civvy Street and later on in life that’s exactly what happened to us. Now, I, I attended Dunoon Grammar School all the way though, Right from the infant class right through into, into High School and I enjoyed it. I was never a person who didn’t enjoy school and at the same time after school I worked in various sort of capacities like in butchers shops and deliveries and all these sort of things that, in those days, people had to do to help augment the family incomes. I left, I left school when I was thirteen. The reason why was because the incomes that they could draw at that time wasn’t sufficient to keep the family going and being the eldest one I was out of school, as I say, at thirteen and I [pause] I was employed. I was employed by people called the Richmond Park Laundry which is, or was at that time, the biggest laundry in Glasgow but which is now gone. Then what happened then was, was that the war clouds were coming and I joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps. The Air Defence Cadet Corps was the forerunner of the Air Training Corps. And of course to do that we had to go to Abbotsinch, which is now Glasgow Airport and that was where we, we got the feeling for the Royal Air Force. Also that was where I saw my first Wellington and we certainly fell in love with it because all the other aircraft that we had seen from there, there on for many years was all the old ones that had been scattered around the country. Then of course, when the, when the Air Training Corps started we changed over, we volunteered for that and on the, on the Tuesday night I joined up and signed up. I went back again on the Friday night and the Friday night I became a flight sergeant which was instant promotion. And the reason for that was, was that I had been in the Air Defence Cadet Corps. We er, what we did was we, we had courses run in the Dunoon Grammar School by teachers who had become officers in the Air Training Corps and one particular gentleman there — Mr D. J. McDermid was the one that I’d looked up to for many years through the Boys Brigade and other organisations like that. And also a Mr Oswald Brown. And Mr Oswald Brown was the mathematics teacher and of course he was the one who actually taught us the rudiments of navigation. And we did that until we were old enough to, to volunteer for the Royal Air Force. Now, during, during that time we sat the examinations and all the way up through till we were actually ready for the aircrew selection. When I was old enough I went to Edinburgh and I was on the selection course there. I come out with very high marks and I got my little silver badge and I then became a member of the Royal Air Force. We, we didn’t get a number but we had various facts and figures written down about what we were. Then of course you had to wait your turn until such times as, as they had space for you. Well that’s what they said. So you got called up and then of course you were VR. And we eventually went to London and, of course, with that of course that was ACRC and that was at Lord’s Cricket Ground along with many other people which was quite strange. I met one or two chaps that day from all over the country, Some of them that I was with for quite a long time and before we actually finished at ITW. From, from London of course we went to ITW and my ITW was Number 17 in Scarborough based at the [pause] now what was it? Based at one of the, one of the hotels in Scarborough. And likewise of course in Scarborough there was about five other different ITWs. My, my hotel that I eventually landed up with was the Adelphi Hotel which was right above the Italian Gardens in Scarborough itself. In the Italian Gardens there was all the swimming pool and all the little offices attached to the swimming pool and that is where we did all the navigation and training like that, in the actual [pause] actual course at Scarborough. The gymnastics, the PT and all that other stuff was held at Scarborough College which was a very good asset. We had our own swimming pool in the Italian Gardens so that was also very good for us. Most of our drill and disciplinary actions was taught on the esplanade in front of the Adelphi Hotel and above the Italian Gardens. We [pause] we had a small, a small flight, and a few days after we were beginning to settle down, we got quite a surprise and we had a group of Belgian boys came across and joined us. They joined us there and it was a very good experience because most of them had been through High School and their English was very good compared with our limit in French or whatever dialect they said that they spoke. But it was very good because we got a good background of the continent which most of us had never had. Well, on completing of the ITW course I was given a job which was a temporary thing, I became the rations officer and I used to deliver all the foodstuffs from the main offices in Scarborough to all the different ITWs and that lasted for a couple of weeks. It was very good to get a responsibility like that because you really had to make sure that everything was right on the button. Otherwise, the sergeants and people in charge of all the kitchens as you went around certainly were very tough on you. During, during that particular time we, we went round all, all the various ITWs in Scarborough and as a matter of courtesy we actually visited one after the other and they did the same to us. And then of course we used to always go on a journey, see all the different church parades, you know. And an aside to one thing was my great friend here — and Ernie Taylor his name, who later became a fighter pilot in Spitfires and Hurricanes and Mosquitos, and although we were in Scarborough at the same time and been on parades at the same time and did various other things we never actually met up and we didn’t meet up officially until I came here in nineteen eighty — [pause] I beg your pardon, in [pause] yeah, 1983, when I returned from Africa. But that’s a different story, I can come back to that one. When people had vacancies for us then we went to different places from Scarborough. Well the first place that I went to was to Scone, Scone in Scotland. Just outside of Perth, and that was where we were, we were flying on Tiger Moths. We did the course there And anybody who has ever been to Scone Airport always remember that they had a bump in the, in the runway and when you went down there you lost the horizon, then all of a sudden you were airborne, and if you missed the bump you were always in trouble. But that was it, it was a good thing to know. And the instructors there were mainly, mainly chaps who’d, who had served all over world with the Royal Air Force. A lot of them had been out in the desert, various ones, And they had been recalled for to train people like us. Especially at Scone near where we were. Well we, we actually graduated from there and in those days you said that you were a LAC, Leading Aircraftsman, Which was quite good, It meant that you got a few more shillings in your pocket but that was about all it was. Sometimes they didn’t even have time to issue the propeller to you, but before you knew where you were you were away doing something else. But anyway, what happened to us, I say us because there was a few from 17 ITW, we, we went to a place called Broughton-in-Furness. Now Broughton-in-Furness — that, that was a, like an escape course, or a commando course or whatever you wanted to call it but really and truly it was like an escape course and you were taught all the rudiments of, of the bush. Well, as a matter of fact being a country boy I quite excelled in that and I got the red lanyard again which I already had when I’d been at Scarborough which gave you a little bit of authority, but as soon as the parades were off you took the lanyard off and that was it. But the lanyard, lanyard was just to give you that bit of authority for parades etcetera, etcetera. From, from there we went to, to Manchester, to Heaton Park. Now, Heaton Park you were either billeted in the Nissen huts which was standard accommodation, about fourteen men to a hut, or you were lucky enough to be billeted outside in somebody’s back room, Or front room, And we enjoyed that for, for a couple of weeks. We were actually put in to a lady’s front room, Two of us, And that was a chap called Alec Kerr and myself, And Alec was one of the ones that, from Peterborough, that I had met on that first, first day in London. It seemed to be that we kept bobbing up wherever we were on, maybe because Kerr and Moore was near enough on the alphabetical list. But anyway we shared the room there and if we gave the lady a half a crown a week each she used to leave the window open so that there was no bother about coming home at night time. But that was, that was more or less just across the road or nearby to Heaton Park. We never took advantage of it, always made sure that we were in before midnight although you were supposed to be the same as the camp, in about half past ten, you know. Well once we got over that stage we were called up into the park and put into a Nissen hut, the same as everybody did, and then we did some more drill and discipline and listened to the Royal Air Force tunes that was drummed into you so that you’d know whatever was being sounded was what you did. And of course if the, if the tunes came up to a certain degree then you had to — whatever you were doing — you had to march to attention, and if you got caught not marching to attention when these tunes were being played you found yourself on KP or something else like that. I managed to avoid that so I was quite lucky. Maybe it’s because it was drummed into my head that you always smartened yourself up whenever these tunes were played. Anyway, we, we eventually got we didn’t really do a lot of, we had a lot of talks on various things but we didn’t do any stuff for examinations. But all of a, all of a sudden you began to, you began to assemble in to different groups, your name was put here and then was put there and it wasn’t alphabetical either and the next thing you knew that you were ABC or DEF or whatever else it was, and eventually these groups were how you were going to be posted away from, from Heaton Park. And with that at Heaton Park — Heaton Park I was, I was KL and KL and M was quite good for me, I didn’t know too much about it and neither did anybody else. But one day, one day we were fitted out with kit and we were told that we would probably go to Rhodesia, And everybody said, ‘Oh. We’re going to Rhodesia. Oh that’s — that’s a cushy number there. You go all the way in the boat and then you go to Cape Town and then you go on a train and you go all the way up to either Salisbury or Bulawayo.’ Well everybody thought oh this is, this is good, anyway , that was a special uniform you got for going to Rhodesia, it was different from those who went to South Africa. Anyway, what happened then was that we, we started assembling in these groups. So the groups one day were 12 o’clock noon, the bell went and we formed up and the next thing we were told, ‘Get your kit together. You’re off.’, ‘Oh. We’re off. Where are we going?’, ‘We’re not telling you where you’re going. You’re off.’ So we got all this kit and we went to Liverpool and [pause] a little memento here of a ship called the Andes, A N D E S, which was a brand new ship just before the war. That ship had come up the Clyde in to the Holy Loch in all its glory because it was supposed to be on the South American run. And it was a beautiful ship, all brand new, And we boarded this ship in Liverpool. And who was beside me? Alec Kerr. Oh, ‘Alec. How did we manage this?’, He said, ‘I don’t know.’ He says, ‘Just the names seemed to come up again and we’re here together.’ I said, ‘Oh good.’ So, anyway we went down to K deck, I thought it wasn’t bad, it was well down in the ship but being a new ship it was quite good. Anyway, we, we stayed there overnight. The ship didn’t move. And we had another fellow with us there and his name was Ted Weir, and Ted Weir was thirty three. Thirty three. And we were only leaving UK. So he said, ‘My God,’ he said, ‘my wife’s expecting a baby,’ and we said, ‘What? You’re an old man for having a baby.’ He said, ‘Yes. I’ve just got word.’ I said, ‘What are you going to do?’ He said, ‘I’m going to slip off tonight and go and see the baby. In case I never get another chance.’ I said, ‘Alright. Alright Ted. How are you going to do it?’ He said, ‘I’m going to go down the anchor [inaudible].’ I said, ‘Well if you don’t come back you’re in big trouble.’ Anyway, about 2 o’clock in the morning and he came back. We hadn’t moved. So Ted Weir, thirty three plus, had seen his baby, a little boy with ginger hair like him, so he was quite happy. But we never saw the baby, we never saw photographs but we were told plenty about him. So anyway around about mid-day the next day the Andes took off. So anyway away we go, away we go down the Mersey and around the top of Northern Ireland. We were sailing well and it was good weather, we went, ‘Oh this is a piece of cake. Nice cruise we’re on on a ship.’ So there we go. Judgement, you know. I said, ‘We’ve left. We’ve left Ireland now. We’re heading for the Bay of Biscay.’ Anyway, that night we were up on a deck and I said to, I said to Alec and Ted, I said, ‘This ship’s going the wrong way.’ And they said, ‘You and your Clyde navigation.’ I said, ‘Me and my Clyde navigation. We’re going the wrong way.’ So, in the morning we were back in Liverpool, right back where we left. Anyway, we wondered what was going to happen there, so we were told to keep our kit all close together and all the rest of it. Anyway, I looked across from where we were, out and I said to, I said to Alec, I said, ‘The 534.’ And Ted Weir said, ‘What’s the 534?’, I said, ‘I’m not telling you. You might be a spy,’ you know. He says, ‘Come on Bill. Tell me. What’s the 534?’, ‘Oh a 534’s got three funnels hasn’t it?’ He said, ‘Yes.’, ‘Well that’s the Queen Mary.’ [pause] So we, we were twelve hours later, we were on the Queen Mary and the next thing we knew we were heading west. So where did we go? We landed up in New York. We were only in New York about twenty four hours, a bit longer. We had a great crossing, everything was fine. And as I say we got in to New York and we had a bit of shore time which was unusual. We were given strict instructions that you would be in the chucky if, if you didn’t come back in time. So anyway they trusted us so off we went, came back, and we, we were taken to the train station as they call it there. And we were all put on these lovely trains with beds and everything, you know, so, oh this is ideal. Anyway, it was American trains and sometime, sometime the following morning we pulled out and we wondered where, where we were going. There was all sorts of bets on, we were going to Arizona, we’re going to this, we’re going to that. No, no, we didn’t go there. We went to Moncton, New Brunswick, in Canada. And that’s where we, where we started getting a bit of trouble because we, we didn’t have much uniform. Some of it, we’d changed some of the stuff, you know. Typical Air Force . You weren’t allowed this if you had that and things like that. Anyway, we walked around there and the saying up there was like a squaw and later on in life I used to call like a ‘Matabeleland nanny,’ you know. Anyway, we got up there and Moncton, Moncton, New Brunswick was the centre in Canada where, where people were sent all over Canada and sometimes down to the States etcetera, etcetera, you know, so once we get up there then we found out what we were actually going to do. Anyway, Alec Kerr and Ted Weir and myself, we were still together and, well it was more luck than judgement, and we didn’t do much there. As a matter of fact we learned, we learned all the names for Canadian names, American names for things. Pie a la mode for a sweet and this, that and the next thing. All the fancy things which we thought we might be getting to eat. Although the diet there was terrific compared to what we had in the UK, the UK diet was excellent. Plain Jane and no nonsense but when we got to, we got to New Brunswick we even got ice cream and things like that. Anyway, one day we, our names appeared on, on a notice board and we were deftly got different parades as people called it in the Air Force , you know. Now, when you join the Air Force you volunteer, butthat’s the last time you ever volunteer for anything, so by this time we were just told what we were going to do. So some people were down for pilots, some people for navigators, some people for wireless operators, all sorts of different things come up, you know, and then of course there was various other bits and pieces that came up, you know. Anyway, we went off in the train and about five, about five days later we got to Winnipeg. We changed trains in Winnipeg, all the way across to Canada to there. We’d actually been in one train and one bed and we used to get off and stretch our legs and get an hour or so while they put new coal and stuff on the, on the train and then we went back on and away we went to the next station. And we had quite a wee bit, and there was one, there was one time I was off and somebody says, ‘You’d better have a haircut’. I said, ‘Alright. I’ll have a haircut’. So I went in and typical me, you know, I went in and I said, ‘Can I have a haircut please?’, ‘Yes. How would you like it?’, ‘Oh I don’t want it, I don’t want it too short and I don’t want it long otherwise I’ll be in trouble’., ‘We’ll give you a Canadian one’., ‘Ok. Fine’. Anyway, I got settled back in the chair and the next thing I knew it cost me fifteen bucks because I went to sleep. I’m still a person who could go to sleep with just sitting, sitting around for a few minutes. Anyway, when I woke up, he says, ‘Yes. You agreed. Every time I told you what you wanted you nodded your head’. I said, ‘Oh. Thank you very much’. So I was fifteen bucks short. Anyway, that was alright. Well, eventually from from Winnipeg we went up to Manitoba. Dauphin, Manitoba. Right up, right up in the top of Manitoba itself, right up north, Dauphin and Paulson and various places like that. And we looked around for the town. It was a hamlet. Dauphin wasn’t too bad but Paulsen, I think it was twelve, twelve houses that was there, you know and we had, we had more people in the camp then there were civilians around us, you know. Anyway, that was quite good. We, we went training there and we did, we did the basics of gunnery there, and started off with the, we had 22s and we did a lot of clay pigeon shooting in the hangars because by this time there was six feet of snow outside, you know. And we didn’t, we didn’t go very far, but we got one or two flights in those Ansons, the early ones, so that wasn’t bad. Getting us accustomed to, to flying as they called it and then, and then of course what happened after that was that they began to tell us what we were going to do. Well some of the chaps, some of the chaps were down as pilots and they went off to another ‘drome nearby. Some of us took in navigation, and some, some took in wireless and gunnery. But what we did was we did the whole lot, we did POSB, you know. And that was, that was the, we all took the full course pilot — pilot, observer, navigator the whole thing, you know. We were beginning to find out what it was all about. It was very gentlemanly, there was civilian pilots and civilian instructors, things like that. All sort of chaps in their early thirties — early forties or thirties and they were our instructors. Anyway, about a few weeks later we were divided up again and this time it was a full, a full gunnery course that we did, everybody had to do that. We had a full gunnery course, and then we had a wireless course, and that kept us the whole time. Even the gunnery course kept us going the whole time. And you might, you might have, instead of maybe having five or six courses for gunnery or something like that they slackened down so you were beginning to realise what you were actually going to do. So what we did then, what we did then was we went across to the pilot’s school. They never told you whether you failed or otherwise. They would say we need seven pilots and that was seven pilots. The first seven in the list became pilots and the rest of us then went in for, for navigation and bomb aiming, and we still carried on with the wireless and we still carried on with the gunnery. Then of course we went up and the next thing, the next thing what we knew was we were concentrating more on navigation than we were anything else although we still carried on every now and again, keep our hand in at wireless, at wireless and gunnery. Well we actually graduated in each of these places and were passed on to different, different sections there and then we had a big change. We went over to Dauphin. Dauphin, Dauphin was quite, quite a town by their standards, there were shops in the village and places like that and we got quite friendly with the local people, and I got friendly with a couple who’d come out from Scotland many years ago. And they had a grown up family of a son who was already in the Air Force and a daughter and there was another girl who stayed with them and she was the fiancé of the son. Anyway, that’s another little story. Anyway, we were quite friendly with them and visited them when we could and had the usual, we had our Christmas lunch there for a start. We went to dances, we went to everything in our spare time, the usual sort of thing. Made ourself, we were told to mix which was very good. And then of course we went up through and you actually, you actually graduated or you failed. If you didn’t graduate and you failed then you were sent to a straight gunnery school and that was, that was to be, that was just to be on a gunnery course. There was no shame to it, it was a good course. Other people went to wireless operator and gunnery, that was also a good course but certainly a little bit different. Anyway, we did, we went on to the straight navigation course and that was, that was fine. Then of course we graduated. You didn’t get any, any stripes, you didn’t get any. You just, just moved out and of course by that time they had, they had AC2s and AC1s instead of the, instead of the LACs so we never did get these props, but we were changed from LACs to AC1s. Anyway, the next thing we knew we had, we had a week’s leave, a week to ten days leave and which was very nice. We got rail warrants for where we could go and all the rest of it, that was ideal. And then we came back and when we come back from there we actually got posted to different places and I got posted to a place called Portage la Prairie. Now Portage la Prairie is a very special, a very special school. Portage la Prairie was Number 7 Observer School. In other words you are doing things slightly different from navigation and we concentrated a lot on [pause] on different, different subjects and one of them of course was low flying and be able to map read. That was quite easy in Canada but, anyway, later on it was a different story. But that was, that was Portage la Prairie. Now Portage la Prairie is still going today and every four years the commandant of Portage la Prairie comes across here to the UK and he and his family take up residence here, and I have, I have met three different families now that came from Portage la Prairie. Anyway, going back, going back to Portage we did this specialised training, navigation etcetera, etcetera like that and observer training and then we, we went in to, we went into Winnipeg. We went to Winnipeg and we attended various courses in there which we didn’t really know what it was all about but it was courses that we were really specialists in. That was what it was, we were specialists in different things, you know. Then we went back of course to, we went back of course to the main station again, and then we got leave. We got some leave and I managed to, I managed to get to see quite a bit of Canada. And then the next thing we knew we were back in Moncton. Moncton, New Brunswick. In Moncton, New Brunswick we had, we had maybe a week or a couple of weeks or whatever, whatever was, until we actually got sent back to the UK. Now, when, when that, when that happened you were called in to a room and we were allowed two big full size kit bags. One that you could take your Air Force kit in and one that you could put all your civilian stuff in, including all the things that you’d bought when you were in Canada and the States and things like that. [pause] And then of course what happened, you were told that you might have a preference of flying back which meant that you could only take one, one kit bag with you and that would, that would be your service kit bag and the other one would come later. On the other hand if you, if you went by sea, returned by sea, you could take the two of them. So at that time everybody thought, ‘Oh well. Everything we’ve saved up for is in that other kit bag.’ [laughs] So we opted to try and get back by, back by sea. So anyway that did happen and we went down, we went down to, [pause] we went down to the railway station this day with all our kit and there we were heading towards the sea. So we went down and when we went down there, there was a ship there. And this ship that was in the dock, I recognised it, and I was just saying to the fellows that were with me, my other two friends had gone, but other ones, I said, ‘This looks like the Empress Line, you know’, ‘Oh. Empress. How do you know that?’ I said, ‘They used to sail down the Clyde every Friday night and we used to watch them, you know. So, anyway, this one turned out and it was named the Empress of Scotland, you know. As I was walking around it I picked up a little bit of information. It used to be the Empress of Japan and during the war they had changed it, changed it from the Empress of Japan to the Empress of Scotland. So, that was Halifax that we were in. So what we did was one day we up-anchored and away we went and of course as we were going out there we were, we had some little ships, something like the corvettes that we had in the UK, and they followed us out quite a bit in to the Atlantic. Then one morning they weren’t there, so you were on your own. Anyway, we, we were sleeping once again away down in the depths of the ship and we said, ‘You know, if we go down there and we are in the mid-Atlantic and we get torpedoed I don’t think we’d ever get out of there you know’, because we timed it and the timing was pretty good because we’d done two or three different runs. And we said, ‘Oh bugger it. We’ll try and sleep up on deck’, but by this time it was summer weather so we actually slept up on deck. And then one day I looked up and I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I know where we are’, I said, ‘We’re heading for the Clyde’. And we did. And we sailed right up the Clyde, up to Gourock and we lay off Gourock there and I saw a lot of the older men who were working on the boats there that I knew from my home town. Dunoon area. But we weren’t allowed to talk to anybody. We were told, ‘No, No, No, No, We don’t want anybody to know where you’ve come from or anything like that.’ So we got down and got onto a boat which was called the Queen Mary 2 and the Queen Mary 2 was a passenger boat that used to ply between Gourock and Greenock and Dunoon on the Clyde but she was bare by this time and she was painted grey the same as the rest. But she was used to ferry people from the liners across to Gourock or Princes Pier, and what happened then was that you went on a train to somewhere, you know. And of course eventually, eventually we did that. And we landed up, landed up in, we landed up in Yorkshire, that’s where we got to, you know. And we got there and we were billeted in one of the colleges and that was great. There was running hot and cold water and things like that and at night you could get out and you could go up to the pub because you’d already been given some money, British money, and we had two or three days there, you know and during this time this friend of mine and I’d met up with Alec Kerr again and we, we went in to this pub and I looked in this big mirror, you know and I said, ‘Look, I know that chap, that Canadian over there’. He said, ‘No you don’t’, I said, ‘Look. I’ll bet you a couple of pints’. He says, ‘Are you sure? Alright I’ll take you on’, ‘Alright’. I said. I said, ‘Yeah. I’m sure. Are you betting against me?’ He said, ‘Yeah. You don’t. There’s so many Canadians here’. Anyway, I went up to him and I said, ‘Oh by the way that was a nice wristwatch that you gave to your girlfriend at Christmas’. He was just about ready to put his [inaudible] up. He said, ‘Why?’ I said ‘Because I took her to a dance’, you know. And I said, ‘Draw that back’, I said, ‘Your names Nicholson, you know. And your, your girlfriend is staying with your mother and father because your parents are working on the railway’, you know. [laughs]. So what he was going to do to me, you know. Anyway, it was quite fun. We had, we had these couple of pints and we had a good night and he had to go his way and we went ours, I never saw him again after that. But it was quite strange. By the time I got home my mother and his mother had been corresponding, you know and she knew all about him and all the rest of it and that was it, you know. And apparently, apparently, the other one knew all about me, you know. [laughs] But from there, from there we, we were, we were back in the Royal Air Force, you know. It was entirely different again you know. Back in the Royal Air Force. This time we were shipped, shipped down to [pause] where would we call it? [pause] My kid’s staying there at the moment. I’ll get back to it. Let me get this. [pause] What — it was a station. The station is Halfpenny Green, you know and we, there were several of us went there, about a half a dozen, but other ones were scattered all over the place, you know. And once, once we get into Halfpenny Green we discovered that we were on specialised training of low level flying on the, on the new Anson, you know. And we did all sorts of stuff but this time of course it was Royal Air Force pilots and they were a lot of chaps who had actually been on service and they’d been lucky enough to have done a tour on something or someway and landed up there on the same as us, low level flying. But as I say most of them were actually stationed there and knew they were there for a while. Anyway, we went, we went there and we actually wondered why we were doing this because really and, really and truly it was just about the only thing we did. We did the night flying and we did this, we did that. We was also a lot of it was either moonlight or daylight. Anyway, what happened then was, of course what we didn’t know was that we’d been selected, selected for duties where, where your low level flying and stuff like that was good, you know. Of course, anyway, by that time that was one of the things we wondered why but you never asked too much. And then of course you had some night flying where you’re up flying low over Wales and all the rest of it and going, actually doing bombing runs under different bridges there and things like that just to keep your hand in, and then eventually we went to, we went to different, different stations again, you know. From [pause] from there [pause] sorry about that.
CB: Do you want to stop for a mo?
WM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
[Recording paused]
WM: I had a break there.
CB: We’re re-starting.
WM: Fine.
[pause]
CB: Ok.
WM: From there we were actually transferred to a secret ‘drome. We didn’t believe it was secret until we got there. As a matter of fact on the way everybody was saying it must, it must be like an ordinary station, and then as we, as we get nearer there with the talk that was coming back to us it really was secret, and that turned out to be Tempsford. Now, the big thing about that was, was that the first thing you did when you get inside you get lined up and you had a nice, sort of friendly talk. And they said, ‘Right you’ve now got to sign the Secrets Act again but this time it’s for real.
CB: Right.
WM: If you talk about anything and it gets out anywhere you will be shot, that’s how serious it is. And as a matter of fact a couple of times the little pub there — The Wheatsheaf — was closed because they thought that it might have been that some information might have been getting out through the pub. There was always the chance that somebody might have said something, although , as I say, we were sworn to secrecy. Now, what we didn’t realise at the time was what we were going to do because nobody told us and nobody would tell us. Now, after, after about a week I think what had been they were actually assessing our characters as they could see them there. They began to take confidence in us and give us that little bit of confidence, you know, and then we found out what it was all about. At that time the CO come in and he spoke to us and he told us what it was all about. And then we realised to what extent the secrecy was demanded because not only was the fact was that the people you were taking in to the occupied countries were in danger of their life but you also were. And what was given to us was, ‘You don’t communicate with them, and they don’t communicate with you’. I do know for a fact that the Americans later on when they started getting into things they used to call the people Joe’s and things like that, but we were not for that at all. We did not say, we did not take, if you turned around and say, ‘You’ve got a bunch of Joe’s there’ well right away people would know you had a bunch of people and where they come from. But the big thing about it was that in most times you just went out on one aircraft to one airfield, and that wasn’t too bad at all. Although there was a couple of occasions where about twenty agents who had been rounded up and all shot out of hand by somebody who had given, given them away, and that happened to be a person of the same nationality. We don’t like to say exactly what it was, I know people have written about it. But on the other hand is this, that we don’t like to think that, that the people helping our agents once on the ground was people that gave them away but it’s a sad story to say that it was. The worst part of that from time to time was in Holland, you know. And the bad thing about it was that the man who was responsible for so many deaths at one time was actually based in London, you know. He was, he was a, he was a Dutchman, yeah, and of course the Dutch people are still horrified about that, you know. That their own people could give them away, you know. Anyway, what did happen was that we were told exactly what was going to happen was that you would be allocated a pilot because then by that time I was classified as an observer. You had your pilot and you and he actually spoke over about what was going to happen. Once we knew where we were going and how many people we were liable to be taking. Well the thing is this. You can all imagine about Lysanders, they can’t carry very many people, but the lighter the people were the more we could actually take and that was a fact. And of course we were, we were told all sorts to keep our weight down. Now, I can assure you that it wasn’t too hard to do that but at the same time you had to make sure that you kept within limits. Now, when, when an operation was on, whatever was going to happen, however you wanted to count it or name it then everybody, everybody who was concerned once again knew what was going on. They knew how secret it had to be, they knew that people’s lives were depending on it, whether it was the team flying them out or the people going out. Now, what did, what did happen was that going back, going back to the time of navigating and taking everything on the map-readings and being able to do that. Nine times out of ten we were jolly lucky but sometimes you might have been landing in a field which was next door to the one that you were supposed to be landing, and the ground wasn’t exactly good. But, of course, the fields that we were landing on had, nothing had been done to them since the pre-war days and one or two of them had been glider schools that people had been taught to glide from, because then these fields had been disbanded and walked away from, you know, and people kept away from them. But they were the kind of fields that were the best for landing on. They had been, they had been more or less gone over in early days because gliding, gliding in Europe was quite a sport before the war. It wasn’t too, too strong in the UK but in, in Europe it was very strong from time to time, you know. And of course, as I say taking, taking people in it was the big thing was to make sure where you were going, how long it would be and as much as possible you had to be exactly on time because a few minutes either way could have cost people their lives because there was people that was coming in to meet the ones that was being taken in and there was also people further along the lines to receive them, so everything had to be timed exactly. If you had strong headwinds going across to the continent and you might have lost twenty minutes or things like that. That was too bad but at the same time, at the same time you had to try and do something about it. And the best thing that we used to do was to try, try and get that little bit extra speed and keep down as low as we could, then of course you had, you had more dangers than you normally would have with wires and all the rest of it, you know. But everything was done more or less by moonlight and that was as best as we could do it. The big, the big thing about it was trust. Now, with the early, the early days there was quite a few of the chaps who were flying there had, had been flying over that area either as people who had money and could fly about etcetera, etcetera or they were people who had been in flying clubs, so they were the best people to get some of the ideas from of how you could do it. Now, the big thing too was that we had, we had some officers with us who were exceptional in whatever it was, whether they were pilots or whether they were navigators or whether they were doing exactly what we were doing, you know because [pause] when they, when they told you about things you certainly listened to them.
[pause]
WM: After a while we actually got, we got some twin-engined aircraft from America and with them they were quite good because they were actually designed to land in the Prairies in Canada or America and their undercarriage was strong. That the likes of the fields that we were operating on they could be taken in and that was, that was one of the good things that happened there. Now there was one particular night and we were loaded up with guns and ammunition and all these sort of things for the Maquis and we had our target where we had to take it to. Anyway, we set off and we had just the three of us in the aircraft. There was the skipper, myself and another chap who, well, nowadays you would call him a loadmaster or something like that. He was the chap that made sure that the load was alright, well maybe that was where the name came from, I don’t know, but that was what he always had to do. Anyway, this particular night we came in to this ‘drome which had been an airfield for, for the [pause] I beg your pardon, an airfield for the gliders. As we came up and we turned around we began to sink. And we felt, well, that would be alright. Nobby turned around and said, ‘Its alright Bill. Once we get rid of this stuff we’ll rise alright’. you know. So Jim, in the back, shouts, ‘Well I bloody well hope so. I don’t want to be kept around here for a while’, you know. Anyway, what did happen was that the Maquis came there with their person in charge, they got all their stuff away and off they went into the bush and that was the end of them. They were gone. Anyway, we tried to get out and we hadn’t got out at all, we’d got out a little bit. Not bad. Anyway, the leader of the group on the ground, and it was a lady, and what she says was, ‘We’ll get you out. Don’t worry. We’ll get you out.’ And we said, ‘How?’, ‘Oh we’ll get you out’. So she actually went to the village and she rounded up everyone in the village and of course they weren’t supposed to move, they weren’t supposed to go out after dark, but man, woman and child all came out to help get us out and of course they had to try and find articles that would help. Anyway, when they were half way up they met a German sergeant, and the German sergeant said, ‘Right. You people. You shouldn’t be out at night time. What are you doing?’ Or words to that effect. And she says, ‘We’re trying to get your big black aircraft out of the mud and the Gestapo’s going to shoot us all including you if we don’t get the job done’. So he says, ‘That’s alright. I’ll go and look after the village and you can get the aircraft out’. So, anyway, he went back to the village and they got us out, but that was about an hour and a half on the ground instead of, at the most, twenty minutes. And as I say when we took off that was one of the best take-offs we ever had because we made sure that she was up and ready to go. But the only thing, time, well, what used to happen to us was we used to get the odd chap on the ground who heard an aeroplane coming and you used to hear ‘bang, bang’ and he would shoot at us with a rifle or something like that, or sometimes even thought it was somebody with a shotgun because we didn’t know it at the time but when you got back again you found the results on your aircraft. And these old aircraft, they could take it you know which was, which was a big thing. But that that was the nearest that we got to ever being interned because we were, we were very lucky. I put, I put it down to each of us doing our own work, you know and able to do the job that we set out to do. There’s the big black box down there if you want to take it home and use it. Would you like to use it?
CB: Yeah.
WM: [laughs] Do you know what it is?
CB: No. What is it?
WM: What is it Tony?
TB: I don’t know. What are we talking about?
WM: In there. Around this side. [pause] Down.
TB: That. No. Where am I looking?
CB: We’ll have a look in a minute.
TB: Yeah.
WM: Over there.
TB: Ok.
WM: No. The big thing. The big thing down there.
TB: I don’t know.
WM: It’s alright. It’s been shifted. The girl shifted it. Sorry. I beg your pardon for this.
CB: That’s alright.
WM: It’s —
TB: Not this.
WM: No. It’ not that, Tony.
CB: We’ll have a look in a minute.
TB: Yeah.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Sorry. Sorry about that.
CB: That’s alright.
WM: Ok. Not to worry Tony.
TB: Oh.
WM: I know where it is now.
TB: Oh.
WM: She shifted it. I’ve got somebody that comes in, I beg your pardon, anyway , as I say between, between our training and respect for each other and what we did, I reckon that is why we survived. And not only that but the code of silence that we had. Now, what did happen was that later on, later on, once, once it started getting where they didn’t need so many people on the ground in Europe then we moved over to Tuddenham and then to Bomber Command, you know. And then later on all the station and everything else moved away from Tempsford across to Tuddenham, you know. And what happened was that the chap that I was flying with in the beginning, a chap called Murray, by that time he was, he was our wing commander. And he was the wing commander for 138 Squadron after the war as well for quite some considerable time, you know. Now, what happened, what happened to me was that on Bomber Command we did, we did thirty six ops on Bomber Command over and above what we did for the other ones but from time to time, our people just called them trips, there was no such thing as tours with us. It was if the old man let you off for a few days you got off for a few days. If he couldn’t afford to let you go you didn’t get, that’s how it was and you also had to make sure that you didn’t talk about what you were doing there. And that wasn’t just on the oath but that was also on the comradeship that we, that we had there, you know. Anyway, after that, after the end of the war the next thing we did was to fly back, fly back all our ex-prisoners of war and we were flying them back and also we were designated to take displaced persons down through France, down to the South of France, you know, and they had special camps there for them, to help them get rehabilitated, you know. And one of the biggest ones was at Istres you know.
CB: The who?
WM: Ist ISTRVS. In the south of France.
TB: Istrvs.
WM: Then of course, after a while there was three crews selected with their Lancasters and their ground crews and we went to RAF Benson. And we didn’t know what we were doing at first but eventually we found out what it was and one of the things that Churchill wanted was to have everything photographed from the air. The likes of London and cities like that we photographed them all from two thousand feet, then smaller towns. went I down gradually to about ten, fifteen thousand feet, and then of course the countryside was at twenty thousand feet. We didn’t only do the UK and Ireland but we also did right from the North of Norway all the way, right down to the Mediterranean and as far around to the east as we could go and come back on the fuel that we had. And that was an operation that had been put in place by Churchill when he was still in office, you know.
CB: So this was coastline? Coastlines?
WM: Sorry?
CB: Just the coastlines.
WM: No. No. Internal cities. Everything.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Ok.
WM: Now we had bases, we had bases in Norway, we had bases in France, we had bases all over. And that was 138 squadron.
CB: Then what?
WM: Then I went. I was told I wasn’t going to get made up to another rank that I thought I was going to get and —
CB: What was that?
WM: A warrant officer then. And I didn’t get that and by that time instead of going out on class A, I took class B which was an early release for anybody who had been in the building trade and essential industries like that and that’s what I did from there, I took that and back in to the building trade.
CB: So what did you do in the building trade?
WM: Well we, we started, we revamped the family business and carried out many jobs, many contracts, but in the end we were finding out that all the spivs were getting the jobs instead of honest contractors. And then one day I decided now that enough’s enough and I said to the family, ‘Right’, the younger brothers, ‘You can take over the business. I’m going’. I didn’t know where I was going to but eventually I landed up in Africa with the African, what it was, was that the, the Mandela, Mandela, which was a trading store in Africa had started up a building section and they recruited me to go and take over a dozen sights there, you know. And that’s when we started building the schools and the hospitals and the universities and all sorts of things like that. First of all in the Nyasaland, as it was and then, and then in the Rhodesias and then that became the Federation. And then that went ahead by leaps and bounds until the UK government gave the countries away. And then eventually I came back here after fifty years.
CB: Where did you retire to?
WM: Well I retired here because I retired supposedly in 1980. What happened, my wife didn’t want me around the house so I went consulting, and I was a consultant for the Zimbabwe government, Zambian government and Namibia and Mozambique and Northern South Africa wasn’t it? [pause] Yeah.
CB: What made you choose this area?
WM: Well, what happened was that I came, I used to fly around here but also the fact was that I came back here in 1991 when one of my nieces and nephews were staying here and he’d been given, got a job as a bank manager from Africa to be here. And I rather liked it, and eventually my wife and I decided to come here, you know, and now that all my family are either in here or down in the Bournemouth area.
CB: How many children have you got?
WM: Three. Three children and then six, six grandchildren and eight great grandchildren. Yeah.
CB: What was your wife’s name?
WM: Phillis. P H I L L I S. Like that.
CB: Yeah. Ah fantastic. Yeah. And when was she born?
WM: On the 1st of February 1926.
CB: When were you married?
WM: The 3rd of January 1947.
CB: So when were you actually demobbed?
WM: The end of February 1946.
CB: Ok. You talked about a lot of interesting things and one of the questions really is, we haven’t touched on is, what were the planes you were using when you were with 138? On the agent’s side.
WM: The twin engines were Hudsons.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah. And then of course we had the single engines then.
CB: Did you, did you fly in Lysanders?
WM: Yes.
CB: You did. Right.
WM: Yes.
CB: How many people could you take in a Lysander?
WM: Well it all depended on the weight that you were carrying, you know. Yeah.
CB: But if it was just agents.
WM: Well that was, well that was, you could get three in, you know.
CB: As well as you and the pilot.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And in the Hudson?
WM: Well the Hudson mainly was, we took quite a few people on board, yes, about ten of them but we were mostly on the Hudsons taking in supplies to the Maquis.
CB: So how often did you air drop the supplies? Or how often did you land them?
WM: Well on the air drop, on the air drop was between, between fifteen and twenty, yeah, and then the land drops. The land ones, we landed with them, the special stuff. That was about five or six. Five or six.
CB: Six people.
WM: No, No.
TB: Six times.
WM: Six drops.
CB: Six drops. Yeah. Right.
WM: Yeah.
TB: How many Lysander trips did you do?
WM: Eh?
TB: How many Lysander trips did you do?
WM: About twelve altogether.
CB: Twelve Lysander trips. Ok. And Hudson? Because sometimes you didn’t find the location did you? So —
WM: No, we went, no well, we always seemed to, always seemed to be quite lucky that way. We were, you know. You know turn around and say it might have been the field next door or something like that but it wasn’t far away. We always managed to get our targets and get our stuff away.
CB: But it took exceptional navigational skill in the dark to be able to get to these places.
WM: It was.
CB: So what was the, what was the real key to that?
WM: Well they told me I had a countryman’s eyes.
CB: Because not everybody could do it.
WM: No, that’s right. As I said right at the beginning when I told you about the Clyde and the Clyde navigation.
CB: Yeah.
WM: The stars and things like that. You know, as a, as a boy I used to wander the countryside in the dark and it didn’t matter what the weather was.
CB: Right. So you had an eye for it.
WM: Oh yes. Aye.
CB: So the navigation itself. What were you flying? What height were you flying on the transit?
WM: Well the, no more than a thousand feet.
CB: Right. So that made it difficult.
WM: It did.
CB: To see laterally.
WM: That’s right.
CB: And when you got to the target then, where you were going to land, how did you do approach that? Did you do a straight in or did you fly over and around or —
WM: It all depends. If you recognised it and the code looks right you went straight in. Sometimes you buzzed it a couple of times because you weren’t sure whether it was a decoy or not. Because once or twice where the Jerries had set up decoys.
CB: So you were warned off were you?
WM: Yeah. Well it was the people on the ground you know.
CB: That’s what I meant, yeah.
WM: They always seemed to manage to do something that upset the Jerrie’s decoys. However, there were one or two chaps [pause] that didn’t.
CB: Yeah. The, so you’re coming at a thousand feet. Is this a wooded area or does it tend to be open country?
WM: Well most of them were open areas that we landed in, you know. Oh yeah.
CB: And how would they know you were coming in practical terms. At the last minute.
WM: Oh well. I would say they had a rough time of when we’d be there. That was what it was.
CB: So were they using lights to identify?
WM: Sometimes you had lights because we used to even take the lights in to them, you know. And sometimes the remote areas — sometimes they, they had little bush fires.
CB: Right.
WM: I call them bush fires. That’s from Africa, bush fires.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. So in landing they were fairly small strips.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: So how did you know, because you’ve got wind to consider?
WM: Yeah.
CB: How would you know which direction to approach for landing?
WM: Well, well you’d try and find your winds on the way through.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah.
CB: And what navigation aids were you using?
WM: Well mostly, mostly, most of it was the navigator’s computer. There was a computer on the knee. But nine —
CB: The Dawson Computer.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Nine times out of ten, nine times out of ten it was just the old fashioned hit and run, you know.
CB: You didn’t have Gee.
WM: Oh no, not at that time. We never got Gee until we were flying in, we never had Gee until we, we flew in Lancasters.
CB: Right. Ok. So when you, when you were loading up to leave in the winter what was happening? Was the aeroplane sinking in? Is that what you were talking about earlier?
WM: Yeah. That’s what you had to watch out for.
CB: What did they do to help that?
WM: Well our people were very good because you know they made sure everything was alright for us but the ones on the other side as much as possible they had firm ground for us, you know.
CB: So you land the aeroplane. You had to taxi back.
WM: Yeah.
CB: In order to take off again.
WM: That’s right.
CB: How long are you on the ground between?
WM: Well, as I say, about twenty minutes.
CB: Right.
WM: Well, some, some of these trips. Other ones were a wee bit longer you know.
CB: The Lysander could get in a pretty small spot could it?
WM: Oh yes. Yeah. As a matter of fact most of the first groups — they used to land on the roads.
CB: Oh did they?
WM: Oh yes. Aye. Used to land on the roads.
CB: Between the trees.
WM: Yeah. ‘Cause you could do that with the Lysanders. Aye.
CB: What was the loss rate? Did people tend to —?
WM: Well I’ll tell you about it if you give me a few minutes.
CB: Yeah.
WM: I’ll give you it exactly, you know.
CB: Right. I’ll stop just for a moment.
WM: Yeah. Sure.
[Recording paused]
CB: Right. We’re talking about the loss rates in 138 in the flying over Europe.
WM: 138 Squadron. The Royal Air Force Association. The Royal Air Force, I beg your pardon. Royal Air Force. At Tempsford, during the time we were there we lost nine hundred and ninety five agents.
CB: Blimey. So when. When’s that from when to?
WM: That was right through the war.
CB: Right.
TB: When you say lost do you mean —
WM: Lost.
TB: What? Captured by the Germans.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
WM: We dropped twenty nine thousand containers.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We dropped seventy, we dropped ten thousand packages.
CB: Yeah.
WM: And there was seventy — seven zero aircraft lost.
CB: On the SOE operations.
WM: Yeah. And there was three hundred air crew lost. The motto for 138 squadron is “For Freedom”. “For Freedom.”
[pause]
CB: Right.
WM: It may be that you’ll come across some day — the United States Air Force 7th Airlift Squadron came to be with us and they actually adopted our motto — “For Freedom.”
[pause]
CB: Now, what were the aircraft used? Because we’ve talked about the Hudson —
WM: Yeah.
CB: And the Lysander.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: But were you using bigger planes as well?
WM: Oh yes. Of course. We used, used Stirlings and Halifaxes.
CB: In the squadron.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: Part of the same squadron.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: So they had lots of different aeroplanes. Yeah.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah. We used Whitleys. We used everything.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We used to say that the junk that the old man didn’t want they used to pass it down to us.
TB: How did the Stirlings and Halifaxes get off then because they needed quite a long runway didn’t they?
WM: Yeah. Well that was, that was fine there at Tempsford.
CB: Tempsford had a long runway so that was ok.
TB: But the other end?
CB: It’s a standard A airfield.
TB: The other end then. How did they didn’t actually — they didn’t actually land in those?
CB: They didn’t land those.
WM: No, no .
CB: They didn’t land at the —
WM: No. They were for the heavy stuff they were dropping.
CB: Yeah. So fast forward then to going to Tuddenham.
WM: Yeah.
CB: That was because the SOE bit stopped.
WM: That’s right.
CB: What did 138 do from Tuddenham?
WM: Well we were on Bomber Command.
CB: Yes. So what type of bombing were you doing there?
WM: Well we were on a lot of the big ones that was available at that time. Yeah.
CB: Right.
WM: Including, including the various ones like [pause] Where was one? There was the Kiel one.
CB: Yeah.
WM: The Kiel. Then there was, was —
TB: Did you do Cologne?
CB: And a, so you did a lot of different raids there.
WM: Yes.
CB: What, what about D-day because you got the Legion of Honour.
WM: Yeah. On, well, apart from the Legion of Honour wasn’t only just for D-day.
CB: No.
WM: That was for all the stuff we were doing for the French, you know.
CB: Right. Ok.
WM: But during D-day time what we were doing, we were dropping H2S. It seems a funny thing for us to be doing a thing like that, but H2S and you did so many trips during that particular time they just called it one. One day. One day. They didn’t call it, didn’t call it so many trips.
CB: Right.
WM: That was one day.
CB: Right. Ok. So what were you actually doing? What were you actually doing at that time?
WM: That was, we were dropping, we were actually dropping, dropping —
CB: Window.
WM: Window.
CB: Yeah.
WM: But at the same —
CB: Not H2S.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Because H2S is the radar isn’t it?
WM: That’s right.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Well H2S is our side.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Whereas, whereas the window was against the Germans so —
CB: Yeah. Quite.
WM: But of course, on the other hand we’d divert and do a short bombing run somewhere else. Somewhere, somewhere else.
CB: Oh as well.
WM: To try and convince them that we were all over the place.
CB: Yes. Yes.
WM: So one flight might go off after twenty minutes, another one after half an hour and go and drop something, and things like that.
CB: Right. Ok.
WM: Yeah.
CB: So just on timings. When did you start with 138 squadron at Tempsford?
WM: When?
CB: When was that?
WM: When. In Tempsford? Well we went back to Tempsford at the beginning of March.
TB: What year?
WM: Yeah.
CB: Nineteen forty —?
WM: 1945.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah.
CB: But originally when did you go to Tempsford?
WM: Oh Tempsford. Not Tempsford, no, that was Tuddenham.
CB: Yeah.
WM: That was Tuddenham.
CB: Yeah. So when did you go to Tempsford?
WM: ‘41, ‘42
CB: Ok.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Right. And from then you went to Tuddenham.
WM: Tuddenham was at the end.
CB: Right. What did you do in the middle?
WM: Tempsford.
CB: Always Tempsford.
WM: Always Tempsford.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Good.
WM: It didn’t matter what job come up, we were a Tempsford squadron. Yeah.
CB: Ok. Good. Thank you very much.
WM: And that is, that is and that was very important was that we were. Well 219 Squadron came and joined us from time to time you know but I had nothing, I had nothing to do with them, you know.
CB: The same idea. You don’t talk to each other.
WM: Much the same idea. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Right. So when you were at Tuddenham and you were in Lancasters, how many sorties? How many ops did you do?
WM: That was thirty six.
CB: That was thirty six. Ok.
WM: Yeah.
CB: So that that until the end of the war.
WM: That’s right.
CB: Ok. And how did the crew get on?
WM: Oh, we had a great crew. What we, what we did, we went back to a place called Langar.
CB: In Nottinghamshire. Yes.
WM: In Nottingham. And that’s where we, where we picked up the rest of the crew.
CB: Right.
WM: And also there was one funny one we picked up, and what he was, he was the youngster, just come right out of university and we didn’t know how many languages he could speak but he could speak just about everything on the continent. And he used to carry his black box with him wherever he went and he used to, he used to speak into that. We never knew exactly what he was doing but we had an idea that he was talking to the German control.
CB: Yeah.
WM: And everything else like that.
CB: Yeah.
WM: A very important job, but as I say he was just straight out of university.
CB: But he was completely detached from the rest of the crew.
WM: No, no, no.
CB: On the ground I meant.
WM: He was a part of the crew.
CB: No. On the ground.
WM: Oh, on the ground. On the ground, yeah. He’d his own, he had his own station on the aircraft. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Where was that?
WM: Yeah. He was behind the radio operator.
CB: Right.
WM: Because they had to work together on it.
TB: But you dropped food stuffs into Holland as well didn’t you?
WM: Oh yes. That, we were on, we were on that drop.
CB: On Manna.
WM: Oh yeah.
CB: Operation Manna. Yeah.
WM: Yeah.
CB: How many drops did you do on that?
WM: We did, at the beginning we did three in one, three a day.
CB: Right.
WM: We did that for about fifteen days.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Aye. Yeah.
CB: And what height would you be flying for that?
WM: Well some of it we were just over, some of it, at the beginning there was about a thousand feet, then it was down to six hundred, you know. But there was one, one little story which is quite, quite a good one. We, it was the first Sunday we were on the run and we were on our second, second run, anyway what happened, As we were flying up, you see what had happened the ladies, we called it ladies, we used to call it ladies they had made white crosses like that.
CB: The WAAFs.
WM: Yeah. Well we said that was.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We didn’t really know but the women used to say it was them.
CB: Yeah.
WM: And what it was that became our drop zones.
CB: Oh I see. Right.
WM: And that was inside —
CB: In Holland.
WM: Football grounds and thing like that.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: Enclosed areas. Anyway, what happened was as we were coming in and just about ready for the drop and I saw this other Lanc coming in like that.
CB: Oh.
WM: And I said, ‘You’re bringing sprogs, you know’, and we went a little bit that way and dropped because we couldn’t do anything else, we’d already gone, you know. More or less gone. Top they went and the stuff went outside and landed here.
CB: Right. On the outside of the designated area.
WM: On the railway, you know.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Yeah. Anyway, what happened was that years later we’d just opened a rugby ground in Africa and I was saying, I said, yeah, I said one of the stories I was saying, ‘And there we were, we dropped the food’. This lad came across. ‘And the stuff fell outside on the bloody railway line’, you know. And I said, ‘It looked like a whole lot of little black ants around a sugar lump, you know. In Africa that was.
CB: Yeah.
WM: All of a sudden I had a hand on my shoulder, and I looked around and somebody bigger than Tony, or he seemed bigger than Tony. I said, ‘What is it?’ He said, ‘You nearly killed me’, I said, ‘What?’, ‘You nearly killed me’. I said, ‘How?’ He said, ‘That was, I was that first lot of black ants’. And there’s another lady here, she was at church with us on Wednesday and she was five year old then and what happened was that her mother heard the bombers coming in and she, her granny said, ‘Hide under the table. Hide under the table. We’re going to get bombed. Going to get bombed’. And her mother said, ‘They’re very low’. The next thing they saw these funny things coming down because that was before the arrangements were made.
CB: Oh.
WM: And that was on to like a golf course. An open area. It wasn’t any good for landing.
CB: No.
WM: It was undulating stuff, you know. And what, what happened was that as I say she was five year old and that was the stuff landing right in front of her, you know.
CB: Amazing.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
WM: And she’s here.
CB: Is she? What an extraordinary thing.
WM: And the number, the number of people that I’ve met is terrific. Well Tony was with us.
TB: Yeah.
WM: Tony was with us. I had a photograph here. Well it’s not a photograph.
TB: Yeah.
WM: There’s a painting done by a Dutchman, you know that was bigger than that.
CB: Right.
WM: No. It’s not there now Tony. It’s gone, my daughter’s got it. Like that. A great big mural, yeah. And he had it, he gifted it that day we were up there at Lincoln and it shows you the Lancasters all coming in, dropping the food and all the rest of it, you know and he actually gave me one just bigger, a little bit bigger than that envelope there.
TB: But the Germans were allowed to eat the food as well that was meant —
WM: Oh yes.
TB: There were people.
CB: They were starving too.
WM: Oh yeah. Well that was one of the reasons why, why, well, do you know the story behind it? Right. The people in Holland, both indigenous ones and members of the German armed forces, were starving and two young Canadian officers, lieutenants, had been talking to their CO and said, ‘Hey man, can’t we do something about that? These people are starving’. And he says, ‘We’ve got plenty of food’.
CB: These were army officers.
WM: Yeah. ‘We’ve got plenty of food. Let’s give some to them’. He said, ‘How are we going to do that?’ He says, ‘Let us go in and see the German. See if he’ll allow it’. He said, ‘They might, you never know’. The two of them. No guns, no nothing like that, no knives, and they went in and they walked right into the German headquarters and demanded to see the number one. So they got in there and they put their case to them that the aircraft coming in wouldn’t drop bombs as long as you didn’t shoot at them, and we’ll drop food and you can share it. Of course he thought that was a good idea. You can share it. Anyway, that happened. So the first thing that people said was, ‘Where are we going to get containers?’ Everybody said, ‘138 squadron. They’ve got hundreds of them’, you know. And so we had. And what they, did they next thing we knew there was American, American trucks, Canadian trucks, all of that coming on to our secret ‘drome, you know, with food. And of course they were all loaded up and taken to us and put in these containers. That’s why I’m saying about contained looked like. They must have had quite a job trying to get into it of course, you know.
CB: Yeah.
WM: But that, that was the first lot of containers that were been dropped. Then they used to drop them in the reinforced mail sacks, you know. Well they were, they were run up special. People were running up up them special night and day to drop, so we could drop, so we could drop them.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: Some of them were great big things. They weren’t small, you know. Aye.
CB: So even at six hundred feet the power of the drop would have been —
WM: Oh well.
CB: Difficult for the —
WM: Well that was, that was —
CB: They were breaking.
WM: Well, that was the chance. Yeah. But most of our containers were alright because —
CB: Yeah.
WM: They were used to being dropped, you know.
CB: No. Quite.
TB: [inaudible] Lancasters were dropping the food?
CB: Eh?
TB: Were they using Lancasters?
WM: Lancasters. Yeah.
CB: Lots of squadrons did it.
WM: Oh yes. There was.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Aye.
CB: Right. What was the most memorable thing about your experience in the RAF?
[pause]
WM: It was when we were dropping the food to Holland and the response that we got. Yeah.
CB: What? What was the response?
WM: Oh terrific.
CB: In what way? How did they demonstrate it?
WM: Oh well. The crowds. Hundreds of people come out and waving to you and everything like that. And the, and the messages that was coming across, illicit radios and everything else. The airwaves were full of it. Aye.
CB: Were they?
WM: Aye. Oh yes.
CB: And then after the war did anybody go back to Holland to see? What?
WM: Oh yes. Yeah. Not only that, for quite a number of years they held food drops there, cheese drops. I was, in the beginning, alright but then I was away for fifty years. It still carried on during that time, and what used to happen was that the Dutch people came, came across on light aircraft and they brought all these little parachutes with these, you know these wee round cheeses and used to drop them at the various Royal Air Force Association homes on one special day at one special time. Yeah. And that was the food drops.
TB: ‘Cause you’re got a Dutch reward haven’t you as well? As well.
WM: Aye. I’ve got a Dutch medal. Yeah.
CB: What’s that called? What’s that called?
WM: Would you like to see it?
CB: Yeah.
[Recording pause]
CB: So we’re talking about your Dutch award for Manna. What’s that called?
[pause]
WM: I’ve got it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s it.
CB: What’s it say?
WM: Thank you. “Thank you Canada and Allied Forces. Awarded the Medal of Remembrance. Thank you Liberators. 1945. To Mr W.T. Moore.”
CB: This is a plaque on the wall.
WM: Yes.
CB: Yes. Framed.
WM: Yes.
CB: Yes. And then after the war there were regular contacts but you were abroad.
WM: Yeah.
CB: So you didn’t get involved.
WM: That’s right.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Since I’ve returned I’ve been highly involved with them.
CB: Yes. That’s really good. And this year, on the seventieth, last year just gone, the seventieth anniversary. Did you go to Holland?
WM: No. I didn’t. I didn’t manage to go.
CB: Right.
WM: But I had quite a number of Holland and Dutch people come here and saw me.
CB: Did you? Fantastic.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Can I just wind things back a little. Tell me about the crew. How, at Langar you crewed up. How did that happen?
WM: Well [laughs] it was an old RAF system.
CB: Go on.
WM: Open the hangar door, everybody goes in and they shut the hangar door and you’re told to, to crew up. In other words you have to try and find a crew. And well we were alright, Nobby and I were alright, we knew each other.
CB: That’s the pilot.
WM: That’s right.
CB: What was his name?
WM: Noble. Noble.
CB: Noble. Right.
WM: Yeah. Because I had a few pilots before that but he was the one they were going to fly Lancasters with, you know, and so then we —
CB: Who took the initiative in selecting the rest of the crew?
WM: Well, it just happened that, happened to be we that were standing around and this old man came around, you know and we said, ‘Oh he looks alright. He’s got experience. What’s your name?’ ‘Graham. Graham Wilson’, ‘What are you?’, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m a tail gunner’, We said, ‘Oh bugger off. We don’t want, you’re six feet and odd and you don’t tell us that’, you know. ‘You’re something else’, you know. Anyway, Graham Wilson became the tail gunner. He was, he was already twenty five plus twenty six.
CB: Yeah. An old boy. Yes.
WM: I know about that but —
CB: Yeah.
WM: And of course, then of course we had we had Jimmy Dagg. Jimmy Dagg from New Zealand and he became, he became our, [pause] well what he, what he actually did was he was our radar man. He was a radar man. He looked after all the radar equipment, and operating that as well. And then we had, we had radar, we had the wireless operator. We had a wireless operator and he was a signaller, Wireless Op/AG. He was a signaller as they called themselves, and he came from across the Clyde from me and his name was Dave Mitchell. [pause] Then of course the mid-upper, the mid-upper gunner, well he come from Canterbury. Peter. Peter Enstein and he and the family have a, have a hotel in Canterbury still, you know.
TB: You met up with one of them at the ITV do didn’t you?
WM: Sorry?
TB: You met up with someone at the ITV do.
WM: Yeah.
TB: Who was that?
WM: Well, that was that, that was the same ones that we met later on in life. Yes.
CB: Who was the flight engineer?
WM: The flight, the flight —
CB: Flight engineer.
WM: The flight engineer was Gus. He come from, he came from London, you know.
CB: Gus.
WM: Yeah, Gus Mitchell. Not Mitchell [pause] Oh what was his second name. Gus. Oh I’ll come back to him in a minute.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
WM: Sorry about that.
CB: Right. Now, anything else that we need to cover that comes to your mind particularly?
[pause]
WM: Well, just about [pause] Well I think we’ve been covering it in general. We’ve covered in general, you know.
CB: Yes.
WM: We haven’t gone into designated drops and designated flights and —
CB: Ok.
WM: Where people got shot up and things like that.
CB: Yeah. Well that’s —
WM: I haven’t done that.
CB: No. Can you do that?
WM: I haven’t done that on purpose.
CB: Oh right. Ok.
WM: I haven’t done that on purpose.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We were quite lucky. We were quite lucky. We went in, in to Bomber Command as a crew and we come out as a crew. We were lucky.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We, the pilots I had earlier on for the small and light aircraft and things like that the most memorable one to me was this chap as I say when I started off he was a, he was a pilot officer, you know, and he finished up as the, as the wing commander. And with that he [pause] he actually, well to me he was a person who deserved everything he ever got because he was, he was a first class team leader, he was a first class gentleman. If he told you a thing then he meant it, he didn’t elaborate on it, you know. And his name was Rob Murray. Of course he had various, various high decorations during his time.
CB: Yeah. Such as?
WM: Well he got all the high ones.
CB: DSO, DFC.
WM: That’s right.
CB: And bars?
WM: Well he did. He did, yes.
CB: So, when you were on operations, what was the most challenging thing on that? So you’re on the Lancaster —
WM: Well on a Lancaster the main challenging thing was to watch out for night fighters.
CB: Right.
WM: You know, by that time your navigational aids were good but the worst thing about it was the German night fighters. Because there were so many young crews, as I call them, shot down before they even left the UK. The likes of chaps just about ready to shove off the cliffs there, you know, they got shot down, you know.
CB: The night fighters were in that close were they? On the way to meet you.
WM: Oh yes. Now then and also at night time on the return trips. That was also the night fighters rejoice.
CB: Right.
WM: Oh yes. You don’t hear a lot about that but there was a lot of chaps were actually shot down here.
CB: Yeah.
WM: On the return.
CB: Yeah.
WM: On the return journey.
CB: And what about the British night fighters that were counteracting those?
WM: Oh well that was up to my Jimmy Dagg and our boffin boy to do that. To try and, try and keep our special signals going. Aye.
CB: So Jimmy Dagg was, where was he operating? Behind the signaller.
WM: Yeah. That’s right.
CB: And who was your bomb aimer?
WM: I did the bomb aimer as well as that because I did, I did the navigating and the bomb aimer.
CB: Oh did you? Right.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Ok. Right. And so when you were on the sorties in the night obviously.
WM: Yeah.
CB: In the squadron. Then what, you were in a stream.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Did you ever see other aircraft while you were there?
WM: Oh yes, yes. Oh yes, we did.
CB: How close did any of them get?
WM: Well I think sometimes within a hundred metres. And other than that you had to watch out for chaps who were either too low or too high. Or too quick on the bomb release. Yeah.
CB: Any coming down from above you?
WM: Oh yes. But you know the thing is that if you went straight through on the guidelines of what you were told to do you were much safer than if you tried to do something different.
CB: Right.
WM: Aye.
CB: So because you’ve got the extra person on board then you’re doing the bomb aiming as well as the navigation.
WM: That’s right. That’s right.
CB: So the practicality is on the run in. How far out from the target are you doing straight and level.
WM: Well a lot of that depended on the territory and the terrain and how it was at night time you know. But generally, generally in later days when the pathfinders were going it was twenty, thirty miles and more.
CB: And you are, you are not. You are releasing the bombs as the bomb aimer.
WM: Yeah.
CB: But you’re not controlling the aircraft. Is that right?
WM: No. Well you did control the aircraft.
CB: Oh.
WM: Because you were controlling the pilot.
CB: That’s what I meant, you’re telling the pilot.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: Rather than having the remote.
WM: Yeah. Oh yes.
CB: Yourself.
WM: Oh yeah. The thing is as I often joke about coming out of the road here at night time I say to people, ‘Left. Left. Left. Left. Right.’
CB: Yes.
WM: You know.
CB: And then you had to do the photoflash afterwards. So how soon would that be after you’d released?
WM: Well that. All that, that depended on how the target was.
CB: Right.
WM: But what you did was you counted in. You say each, each lot of bombs were [pause] were going to go off at different heights because they were different types of bomb types you were going. It wasn’t just all the same type
CB: Ok. So what were the types?
WM: Well you had everything from the small incendiaries, well the nuisance bombs, you know.
CB: Yeah.
WM: The big incendiaries that used to drop and probably set two or three buildings going you know.
CB: Right. So your load would be a mixture of high explosive.
WM: That’s right.
CB: And incendiaries.
WM: Normally was.
CB: So the photoflash was to illuminate the target.
WM: Oh to try and, yeah.
CB: And when did the camera fire. How did that happen?
WM: Well that was timed, that, we didn’t —
CB: Automatic.
WM: We didn’t actually do the timing.
CB: Right.
WM: That was actually arranged ahead of time you know.
CB: So if you weren’t at the right height for the original calculation.
WM: Yeah.
CB: What happened?
WM: Well then, then of course they could give you, could give you, you know say whether you were actually within that area or not, you know.
CB: Yes.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: Ok.
WM: A lot of people turn around say now that it was scattered and all the rest of it but a lot of them didn’t realise that you might have had a change of wind. The wind might have went up from fifty or sixty knots to about a hundred knots.
CB: Right. And how did you detect that change?
WM: Well, well what you did was you were finding your winds all the time and that. You had to try and allow for that you know.
CB: But you’re not using a sextant.
WM: That was the old days.
TB: Looking out the window.
CB: So you’re using Gee.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Are you? And GH.
WM: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: And GH?
WM: And of course. Yeah. And otherwise H2S, you know.
TB: H2S. Yeah. Just a quick one —
WM: Once you, once you started on H2S you know it was a different story entirely.
CB: So what could you see with H2S?
WM: Well if you had water around you it was excellent. If you were going up alongside a canal you had excellent because the more water you had around you the better it was.
CB: The contrast.
WM: Yeah.
CB: So how did you use H2S? For navigation? Or could you use it for the actual bombing?
WM: Well we could use it, could use it for navigation. You could use it for bombing as well. Oh yes.
CB: But what was the downside of using H2S?
TB: The tracking.
WM: [laughs] You should know what that was.
TB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: That was as bad as the night fighter.
TB: Yeah. Yes.
CB: So the practicality of it is that you’d only switch it on occasionally.
WM: Well the trouble was the better you were on the other instruments, the better your crew were on the other instruments, the safer you were.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Once you got the run ups and different things like that you then you were taking your chances.
CB: Yeah. To what extent were you aware of the German system of upward firing guns in night fighters?
WM: Well the thing is, the thing is this. With that —
CB: The Schrage music.
WM: It was something, it was something your rear gunner was dreading because after a certain angle he’d no control over that at all but if he, if he was on his, on his proper lateral defences for the aircraft, fine . Now, it’s, you couldn’t turn, you couldn’t turn around, turn around and say that the rear gunner missed something you know because it was a big bit of sky you know.
CB: How many times did you get fired on from a fighter?
WM: Very seldom. I dare say we actually got fired directly on with the other ones but we were aware of them, you know.
CB: And did you do many corkscrews?
WM: Oh yes, quite a few. Quite a few of them. Yeah. That that was a lot of the targets like Kiel and places like that that was when you did a lot of corkscrews was on that.
CB: Yeah. And they were using box flak were they?
WM: Yeah. Well you see, along, along the canals and that you had your pockets because, you know, the canal was where there had been several good attempts or big attempts at different things. Like one night we went out on the Friday nights and we bombed this battleship, you know and we actually put it on its side, you know. And the Sunday night we were called up again and somebody said, ‘you’ve got to go and so and so’. And a voice chipped up and said, ‘Hey are you wanting us to right and put it back up the way it was before?’ [laughs] That was a fact, that’s what he said. That was actually recorded as being recorded. [laughs]
CB: So when you were bombing shipping what bombs were you using?
WM: You had a medium height bomb you know but we weren’t in for the shipping direct we weren’t in a lot of these special ones.
CB: Right.
WM: But dropping bombs. Dropping bombs in the submarine pens, nowwe had the big ones for them as well.
CB: You did carry the big ones.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
WM: But you see the thing is this. We had a modern, we had a modern Lancaster, the most up to date one, yeah, And the thing about them was, was that you were, you were dropping. Later on what we were doing although we thought we were dropping on submarine pens, it wasn’t. We were dropping them because the V2s and the V2s were in there and at the beginning we didn’t even know that there was V2s and V1s, we just thought they were submarine pens because the amount of damage that the government believed was going to come on the London area was going to be horrendous and there could have been, you know. It was bad enough the likes of people down this area knew about the V2s and V1s and things like that.
CB: Yeah. Sure.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Right. Do you want to stop there for a mo?
TB: How did they discover, the Germans discover —
[Recording paused]
CB: What was the role, the difference between you, sorry, the wireless operator and Jimmy Dagg. So Jimmy Dagg —
WM: Well the wireless operator had, as you say wireless.
CB: Yeah.
WM: He had his official work to do.
CB: Yeah. Signaller.
WM: Yes.
CB: Right.
WM: When Jimmy was doing this other thing you had, you had lots of stuff that was introduced that Jimmy used to use, you know. A lot of it, we never touched it, we never touched it, you know. Same as the, same as the youngster with his black box, we never saw what was inside that.
CB: So, Ok. Who was the youngster then?
WM: Eh?
CB: Who was the youngster?
WM: Well, he was young Weir.
CB: Oh he was young Weir was he?
WM: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right.
WM: But we never, well maybe a bit [laughs] [coughs] we didn’t, we didn’t treat him as a kid, you know, but we did actually look after him, you know, because by the time we were doing that we were, you know, we had quite a few things under our belts sort of thing, you know. Yeah.
CB: So he only came in later did he?
WM: That’s right.
CB: Right. Ok.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Where did you meet your wife and when?
WM: Oh I met my wife in 1944 in Dunoon, in Scotland.
TB: Up there.
WM: There it is. There. Up there.
TB: Yeah.
WM: That’s the picture up there.
CB: Yeah.
WM: But what it was, was we got, we got some leave and I managed to persuade the old man to give us a few days extra. And I said, ‘It takes us two days to get there and two days to get back again, you know’. And he said, ‘Ok’. So we got about ten, got about ten days and that, and that was the July of ‘44. As I say we thought we deserved a, we deserved a bit of a rest after what we’d been doing for D-day and all the rest of it, you know.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: Yeah.
CB: And how many other bombers did you see blow up?
WM: Quite a few actually but you were never sure whether it was your ones or the enemy that had been got at, you know.
CB: How do you mean your ones?
WM: I mean, I mean our aircraft. Some other Lancasters.
CB: Which, whether it was a German plane that blew up.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Or a British one.
WM: That’s right.
CB: Ok.
WM: Sometimes they went, they went puff too. Yeah. But no, no, it was hard to say.
CB: And your rear, Graham Wilson in the back.
WM: Yeah.
CB: At six feet he was squashed in. Did you have the later .5 machine guns in the rear turret?
WM: Yeah. Yeah. We had that. I’ll tell you what we did, I never mentioned this with —
CB: Previously.
WM: At one time from [pause] this was one of the sort of trips that we did from [pause] from Tuddenham. We, we went up to Abbotsinch and we got new engines put in, you know, and , well they turned around and said these ones were getting a bit old and so they were but we got these new engines put in.
CB: More powerful.
WM: Powerful. We could fly faster, fly further, fly higher, all the rest of it. Anyway, there was only three. So anyway we went up there and we got up to Abbotsinch which is now Glasgow airport, you know. I knew it as Abbotsinch as a kid, you know. Anyway, we left that aircraft. We had taken our own ground crew with us.
CB: Oh.
WM: We were told to do that, they also got leave, and we went home and all the rest of it. We didn’t scatter because everybody came and stayed with my mother, you know. Anyway, we got back and they had these new engines and the ground crew were back. They also had a couple of Scotsmen in the ground crew and we had to test these new engines and fly them around and give a report. So we used to take the chiefy, if you know what a chiefy is. Do you know what a chiefy is?
CB: Yeah. The chief technician. Yeah.
WM: No, no.
CB: The ground crew chief.
WM: No.
CB: Oh. Which one?
WM: No. A chiefy was a flight sergeant.
CB: Oh.
WM: [laughs] That is where it came from.
CB: Yes.
WM: The equivalent from the, from the Navy.
CB: Right.
WM: Was the chiefy.
CB: Right.
WM: And the flight sergeant became a chiefy. But anyway their chiefy came along and we got these engines back and had to run them up, so we did that and we had a couple of days flying around and one night in the, in the mess and the naval boys were shooting a line about HMS Forth and the submarines in the Holy Loch and they said that nobody could get near them, you know. Well, I’ll tell you what, I just, I never said a word and I’d told the crew already you don’t mention anything about. They might have guessed my accent a bit but, you know. Anyway, so anyway what we did we went into Paisley and we got a whole lot, a whole lot of little bags of lime, you know, and we loaded it up in the Lancaster and we took off. So, we had, we had permission to fly anywhere we wanted as long as it wasn’t in one of these defensive barrages, you know, whatever they call them. Anyway, we decided that we’d go and see The Forth. So we got in, we revved her up, we took off, we went across the Clyde to Erskine. We went up in to Loch Lomond and flew up Loch Lomond and flying low, used to flying low, then we jumped. We jumped over the section where the Norsemen used to draw their boats across Loch Lomond to Loch Long. And we jumped across there, down Loch Long, moved over into Loch Eck, down Loch Eck, Glen Massan and then we just opened up the throttle. Full throttle right down the Holy Loch and dropped all this stuff on HMS Forth and all the submarines and got the hell out of it, you know. Anyway, we got, we did, we went away down the Isle of Arran and all the way around about, the bottom of the Clyde, you know, and back up again about an hour later, you know. So, eventually we landed and this lieutenant commander sent for us, and we paraded in front of him, all scraggly buggers, you know. None of us had proper uniform on, we’d just what we used to use around the aircraft you know. Anyway, he says, ‘You’re all on a charge’. ‘Why sir?’, ‘Well it’s my Lancaster that did this, AC-Charlie, and I won’t have it’. I said, ‘What do you mean your Lancaster, sir?’ He said, ‘Well they’re based here and they’re my Lancasters. I’m in trouble for them’. I said, ‘Oh. Why’s that?’, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You made a mess of the Forth’. ‘Don’t you remember the other night in the mess? All these naval boys were saying it was impossible, you know’. ‘Well. Dismissed. We’ll see you later when you come back from your next job’. So we went up and went up north and we loaded up with bombs and eventually the idea was to go up into Leningrad, you know, so called Leningrad then, you know and the siege. A lot of people thought the siege was just like across the road there you know but it wasn’t, it was about forty or fifty miles away, you know, but at the same time old Jerry had it all wrapped up, you know. But the Russians had their great bunkers there that you could land a Lancaster on. Well they had, they used to say, ‘Watch the bloody holes in the runway’. But they used to fill them in all the time. Anyway we landed there, got under this big, what was supposed to be bomb proof shelters, you know. Well we knew what we were doing the other side but anyway that was it. So we stayed there until the wind changed because we couldn’t have the wind that we came in on otherwise we’d be flying over the Jerries’ lines immediately, you know, at low level. So we waited until the wind changed, right, Gulf of Finland, away, good.Back up were Russian bombs then, Back right down we dropped the Russian bombs. Now this was all his majesty’s ideas and I don’t mean the King either. This was Winston Churchill’s ideas to show what, what we could do, you know. Anyway, we went back to Lossiemouth and back again and back again and we were lucky, you know. We had a few chips and things like that. Anyway, the last time we got to Lossiemouth they said. ‘No. It’s finished. You did enough’. ‘Oh thank you very much. Where do we go now?’, ‘Go back to Abbotsinch.’ Back to Abbotsinch and all the boffins came up from the, from a factory which is, well the factory’s about twenty minutes in a motor car, you know. About five minutes in a aeroplane, you know.
CB: Yeah.
WM: But that’s where they used to make these engines, you know. Anyway, all the boffins were there. Took the, took the engines off, took them away again and then we went up to see the old man as we call a lieutenant commander. So we got up there and I knocks on the door. No lieutenant commander, full commander. And I said to the boys, I said, ‘Oh this is alright. He’s been posted somewhere’, you know. He wasn’t posted somewhere, he’d been promoted to full commander which is just under a captain in the Navy . Yeah. So I saw his secretary, a very nice young lady, I got on well with her, you know. Anyway, we said to her, ‘When can we see the boss?’ Well, she said, ‘I’ll make an appointment for you’,’ Alright’. The next morning appointment everybody had their best blues on, shining, buttons polished, boots polished. She led us in. He was out in his other office. ‘Come in. [pause] Morning gentleman. Why are you here?’ I said, ‘Beg your pardon sir. You’re the one who told us to come back here when we come back and you would sentence us to that escapade that we had’. ‘Don’t know anything about it’. I said, ‘But —‘, ‘I don’t know anything about it’. He said, ‘Good trips boys?’ ‘Yes’, ‘And they had theirs?’,’ Yes’. ‘My Lancasters’. So there it was. Nothing happened about it.
CB: That was lucky. Yeah.
WM: But the, there was a great friend of mine. He’d got a book, another book I think over there somewhere. Anyway, he’s written it. Peter. Peter Lovatt, you know.
TB: Oh that’s the bloke you met at the what’s name isn’t it?
WM: Sorry?
TB: That’s the one you met at —
WM: Oh right
CB: Is it there Tony?
TB: Yeah.
WM: Eh?
TB: Yeah.
WM: One on submarines, and one on this, and one on that.
CB: Yes. Lots of captains on HMS Forth.
WM: That’s right.
CB: Yes.
WM: And [pause] and of course as I say what happened was that I lost touch. And you know the Millies? [pause] Well the Millies are sponsored by the ITV and The Sun newspaper and one of the first ones that was done I was asked to go on it. Anyway, I’d been, I’d been speaking to a young lady at the Bomber Command luncheon on the Sunday.
CB: Yes.
WM: And this thing was going to happen about ten days later, you know. But at that time I didn’t know. So, anyway, what happened was that I couldn’t, I couldn’t find him anywhere. I’d written to him, we’d lost touch and that was it, you know. Anyway, I even got a letter from him. It took fourteen years to come to me, I got it though. Fourteen years to come to me. Anyway, I tried to find him, couldn’t find him. Anyway, on the, on the Saturday [pause] no, I’ll tell you a sad thing that happened was on the Sunday I’d been at the Bomber Command luncheon and my wife was dead and my children said, ‘No dad. You must go and we’ll see to everything at the moment.’ So, anyway on the Friday we had the service and on the Saturday morning my daughter got a phone call saying that I was wanted for something special for the Millies. We’d never heard about the Millies. Anyway, she got to know a bit more than I did and then apparently this lady went to work to try and find Peter and she found his son playing golf and then that led to them finding Peter. And then of course on the Wednesday I got a car that came here for me. I was warned about this. First of all they said black tie and wearing black tie is fine. The next one was lounge suit, yeah, that’s fine. Next one was blazers and badges, that’s fine, you know.Anyway, what did happen was that I took the whole lot and I got dressed here in the dickie suit. All the way down to London, just myself in this green tomato carriage. The next thing I knew we stopped at this hotel. ‘No. Keep in where you are’. ‘Where are we going now?’ ‘Just you wait and see. I’ve got my orders not to lose you’. I said, ‘Oh. Thank you’. So they took us to Number 10. So that was fine. So we had a photographic session and shaking hands and all this. And then we got taken back to the hotel. We went to the Dorchester first and we, we had drinks there and then they said, ‘Time up. Everybody in’. And we had buses by this time, great big buses, you know, and the driver had already told us that, ‘You sit in the place where you are because I’ve got you on camera and you don’t dare go and move. Or another bus’. Anyway, we got back to the hotel and somebody says, ‘How about dinner?’ ‘No. You’ll get dinner where we’re going’. ‘Where are we going?’ ‘We’ll take you there’. So we don’t know where we’re going. So all done up in dickie suits and medals and this, that and the next thing. And we get there and we’re at the War Museum and it’s all lined up like Hollywood. All these searing lights and all this thing and we get escorted up. Once again, in the bus they said, ‘Have you got your number?’ The bloke next to me, he keep talking away to me and he turned out to be with, he was the boss of the Royal Navy you know. And he was down in the dumps because they’d just took his aeroplanes away that day, you know. He wasn’t very happy with them, you know. On the other side of me was a young pilot officer who’d a brand new DFC up here, you know. Anyway, that was fine. Anyway, we got there and they said, ‘Right. As you come up if you get a green ticket you go to the right. You get a red ticket you go to the left.’ Alright. I got a red ticket. I’m going this way and all these film stars and all these other high [unclear] and had a great run ‘cause you meet everybody because that’s the idea of the two lots. Then all of a sudden somebody shouts out. ‘Ready. The doors will be open in five minutes ladies and gentlemen. And after you get in through the doors there’s toilets on the right and the left that you may use’. [laughs] Anyway, we get there and then of course they tell us what table we’re at. Then I find out that I’m with another five Bomber Command boys. Bomber Command. Five. Five and one is six. Something wrong. Anyway, we go back. We go, we sit down and we get our nibbles and this, that and the next thing and that’s the beginning of a good evening, you know. Plenty of wine coming around you know. Very nice. Good stuff. Then the next thing I noticed that there were people going up to the platform. So this man went up and this lady went up and this man went up and eventually, ‘Bomber Command. Table Thirteen.’ We go up. There’s still six. Anyway, we get up there and as we get up one of the chaps, about his size, what does he do? He falls down through the trapdoor. Honestly all you could see was he was down to about my size. [laughs] So, anyway, what happens then is that we’re beginning to get the idea there’s presentations going on. So we got this presentation, a beautiful glass ornament we’ll call it, a beautiful thing. We’ve got it. Anyway, what happened, we got that and everybody else had moved away when they got theirs and this presenter, that fella, same height as me, white hair and this young blonde girl. She was here and he was there and wouldn’t they let me move. No. Then the next thing was the roll of the drums. ‘Brrmbrrrm brummmm brmmm’. What happens?
TB: Peter comes in.
WM: They have it like that programme, “Your Life.” Eventually what happens, I get to see something. I thought to myself it can’t bloody well be. There’s Peter Lovatt there and of course they said to me, ‘What would you like to do tonight?’ I said, ‘I don’t know but I’m beginning to think my imaginations’, you know. Anyway, apparently my accent was broader than it should be. Anyway, what happened, It was Peter. They’d found him and they had him dickied up and they had him there after all these years. Yeah.
TB: [inaudible]
CB: Extraordinary.
TB: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: We’re restarting. So what you’ve got is a plate here.
WM: Right.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Now —
CB: So they presented to you.
WM: Now, when we went in to the, when we went in there, on the table, there were lovely sets of plates were all on the table and of course everyone was admiring them and reading them. And then of course when we came back from being on the platform they had disappeared, you know. But unbeknown to us they’d made up bags. Extremely heavy, strong, beautiful carved out, set out plastic bags. Now in the audience was my friend. Who?
CB: This is your pilot?
WM: Camilla.
CB: Oh Camilla.
WM: Camilla and her husband.
CB: Right.
WM: So, anyway, what happened during the time we were going around and they went outside and then everybody came back inside after the toilet, you know. What happened then was that we were at the tables and the VIPs came around to greet us although everybody told us we were the VIPs and not the ones coming to greet us. So, anyway, the Prince of Wales and his good lady was coming around and they got to me and I was told that, you know, we could talk to them. They’re here, we could talk to them. You’re the VIPs and you can tell them any stories you like so long as you don’t go on too long, you know. Maybe they knew me. Anyway, what happened, when they came to me I said, ‘Good evening ma’am. Good evening sir. Thank you very much for coming tonight. We’re very happy to see you here’. I said, ‘By the way can I tell you a little story about your granny’. That’s to him. And Camilla takes out a wee book, I’ve got one of them here, yeah, h, a little book like that, you know, and her pen. I said, ‘This is a story’, I said, ‘In 1960 I built a race course for your granny and I was given ten days to build it while she went on a cruise up and down Lake Nyassa in Africa’, and of course then the ears were going but I hurried the story up. So, anyway, anyway Camilla’s busy writing and she says, ‘This is going to be our story at Christmas’. Christmas is only a few days away, you know. ‘This is going to be our story. Nobody knows that one’, you know. So, anyway she writes down all this stuff about what I told her and all the rest of it, you know. And I said, ‘I hope you can read that’, and she said, ‘Yes. I better’. I says, ‘Ok’. And Charles is watching her. Anyway, the next thing that happens, the next thing that happens is he says, ‘Is that all?’ I says, ‘Aye. I can tell you a lot of stories about your mum if you like too’, you know. He says, ‘Another time’, he says. I said, ‘Alright, we’ll make it another time’, [laughs]. Anyway, I’ve met them several times since. Anyway, what did happen the people on the platform turned about to these ones? Yeah. Now, he’s a secretary for Bomber Command and has been for generations. There’s myself there and this was my nominated girlfriend for the evening. Well the thing is this, she’s married now and got a baby now. [laughs] And this is the one that fell down the hole. Well there you are.
CB: Fantastic.
WM: This is us shaking hands on the — yeah. That’s my friend Peter Lovatt.
CB: Yeah.
TB: Have you heard from him since? Have you heard from him since?
WM: Oh yes. Aye.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bill Moore. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-18
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMooreWT160318
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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02:45:48 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Moore joined the Royal Air Force after spending time in the Air Defence Cadet Corps, qualifying as an observer. He tells of his family history in wartime and his transatlantic trip, landing in New York before heading to Canada for his training. He went to 138 Squadron and tells of his time flying Lysanders from RAF Tempsford, taking members of Special Operations Executive over the France and also of dropping supplies to the Resistance. He also tells that on one of these operations, his aircraft had to be helped by local villagers to get airborne again. As well as Lysanders, William flew in Hudsons, Stirlings, Halifaxes and Lancasters in Bomber Command. Bill tells about 138 Squadrons part in Operation Manna - he received the Legion of Honour from France and also a Dutch Medal of Commendation. He also tells of his time after the war when he returned to the building trade working in Rhodesia and Zambia.<br /><br /><span data-contrast="none" xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB" class="TextRun SCXW153699638 BCX0"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW153699638 BCX0">Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed.</span></span>
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
England--Scarborough
Canada
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
France
France--Istres
Netherlands
Zimbabwe
Zambia
138 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
displaced person
Gee
H2S
Halifax
Hudson
Lancaster
Lysander
observer
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Benson
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Tempsford
RAF Tuddenham
Resistance
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/119/1215/PThomasWH1501.2.jpg
745fc204912c7bac71a5523c73801932
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/119/1215/AThomasWH150711.1.mp3
b0bbf81f2421a7d15357a2b007230236
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: Ok Bill.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Thank you for allowing me to come into your home and interview you. It’s a real pleasure to meet with a veteran like yourself.
WT: I’ll give you, I’ll give you the bill later on.
BB: Thank you very much. Ok. What’s your birthday date?
WT: 28th January 1922.
BB: And place of birth?
WT: Redruth in Cornwall.
BB: Redruth. And did you go to school there as well?
WT: Yes I did.
BB: And you did your school certificate and all that kind of thing.
WT: I did.
BB: Ok. When did you, did you volunteer to join the RAF or were you conscripted and then decide for aircrew?
WT: Volunteered because as I said I’ve got that thing all written out. We had, in 1938 they started a flight of the Air Defence Cadet Corp.
BB: Yeah
WT: I joined that because our headmaster was an ex-fighter pilot in the First World War. And then I left school to start work so I couldn’t carry on with the flight but I managed to find the town flight and joined them
BB: And what was your pre-war occupation?
WT: In local government.
BB: Ok.
WT: On the health department side.
BB: And what attracted you to wanting to volunteer for aircrew?
WT: I think it, it was our headmaster who was, as I say, he was a fighter pilot.
BB: The ex RAF sea pilot. Yes.
WT: Ex RAF.
BB: Yeah. Good. He encouraged you to do that.
WT: Not only do that when I, when I was working, walking down past his house, as I had to, I heard, ‘Thomas. Why haven’t you joined the ATC?’ I said, ‘Well,’ ‘It’s the school.’ ‘There’s one down the end of your road. I’ll see you tomorrow night at three.’
BB: Good. So you, you volunteered for aircrew. You obviously went for air crew selection.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they obviously graded you as, as a bomb aimer or did you go for a particular -
WT: I wanted to be a pilot.
BB: Right. And what happened with that that you couldn’t be. Were they oversubscribed or they just needed bomb aimers?
WT: No well I came out from doing the stuff. I went up to Sywell.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Tiger Moths.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Well I got twelve and a bit hours in but I never saw it
BB: And then you were scrubbed.
WT: Well I could take off. I could do everything in the air
BB: But the landing was a problem.
WT: Landing was a problem. On the little mini run, place -
BB: Yes.
WT: We had.
BB: Yes
WT: But the big one I could get in at. The chief flying instructor
BB: Right.
WT: Took me on a check and he said, ‘I’ll try my best but I don’t know what I can do,’ but he couldn’t.
BB: Anyway, so you were remustered as a bomb aimer.
WT: No. As a NavB.
BB: Oh as a Nav oh as a NavB. Ok. Right.
Other: Excuse me for just a second. Turn it off and press that to start again. Hold that down to this constant.
BB: Ok.
Other: Ok, right.
BB: So -
Other: I want to go and check on my dog.
BB: Ok. So -
Other: I’d better check on the dog in the car.
BB: Ok.
WT: Oh alright my dear.
BB: A NavB.
Do you want me to get up?
BB: A navigator bracket bomb aimer ok. Now, was that the half brevet with the B on it?
WT: No the old-
BB: Oh as the old observer. Ok.
WT: Oh yes.
BB: The flying O.
WT: That’s what I got.
BB: Right.
WT: ‘cause I went to Canada. Eventually.
BB: Oh you went, part of the old Empire Training School.
WT: I did. And I did my bomb aiming and gunnery. And then to oh I’ve forgotten what it’s called now - L’Ancienne-Lorette. And I did my navigation training there. I must have come out fairly well because I got granted a commission.
BB: Right.
WT: So the first six, we never knew which ones out of thirty two were commissioned and then I went to Prince Edward Island and we did three or four weeks special training there to go out over the sea. Navigation and all that. So -
BB: Ok.
WT: That finished.
BB: Right.
WT: Back to Moncton and that was the holding unit.
BB: Yeah.
WT: There for ages waiting to go back to England and eventually doing so. I had come over to Canada on the Queen Elizabeth.
BB: Wow.
WT: Came back on the Aquitania.
BB: Which of course had been converted to a trooper so it wasn’t very luxurious.
WT: Luxurious oh it was luxurious enough.
BB: It was enough, still luxurious.
WT: oh it was alright. And then down to the holding unit waiting to be, go somewhere. We were pushed here there and everywhere and eventually back again and told we were then going to Scotland to something, I said, ‘What is that for? Bomb aimers.
BB: Bomber aimer.
WT: So they converted us from that to bomb aiming.
BB: I see. Right. And so what time, at what date did you actually go, finish that training?
WT: Oh I can do it.
BB: Ok.
WT: Do it from here. [?]
BB: Roughly.
WT: Monckton. Harrogate. Oh back to England in November ’43.
BB: November ‘43 so -
WT: And then to Harrogate.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And then we were at Sidmouth, back to Harrogate again and eventually up to Wigtown.
BB: Oh.
WT: That was April ’44.
BB: Ok and you joined so your OTU where you crewed up. Where was that?
WT: That was down at Castle Donington in May.
BB: Castle.
WT: ’44.
BB: And was that? When my uncle was flying for 9th squadron at Bardney, an Australian pilot he did his OTU at Kinloss.
WT: Ah huh.
BB: And they threw them in to a big hangar and all the navs and the pilots and the air gunners and the bomb aimers were all in this big hangar and they virtually crewed up until they found their own crew.
WT: This is what we did.
BB: Good. So it seemed to have been an RAF -
WT: That was the way of doing it. Yes.
BB: Programme.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And it was, it was very good because each crew kind of found the people they kind of trusted to fly with and they’d ask questions like, to the pilot particularly, ‘Were you alright on your course?’ ‘What were you?’ ‘Oh I was above average.’ ‘You’ll do.’ And it was usually the navigator that found the pilot.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And once they’d got those two, ‘oh I met a bomb aimer over there. A guy I liked.’
WT: This was the way we did it.
BB: And that was exactly the same -
WT: We did it the same way.
BB: That you did it.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Ok and so you were all taking each other on trust at that stage.
WT: Sure and then we went on from there to Prangtoft sorry, Sandtoft.
BB: Sandtoft.
WT: And then Hemswell for Lanc finishing school and then I did what, I was transferred then from there to 166 at Kirmington and 166 squadron was there and we were the 3rd flight. AB. I think it was C flight. And they -
BB: And what were they flying at the time? Lancs?
WT: Well that was Lancs.
BB: Lancs. Yeah.
WT: And what they did was they they nearly burst C flight ready and then we went back actually down to Scampton.
BB: Right.
WT: As 153.
BB: Ok.
WT: And we were the first aircraft to land at Scampton ’cause they had just put the stuff in. We were the first aircraft to land there. In A Able which was somebody else’s kite anyway.
BB: Yes.
WT: But er yeah we went along the runway the lads were all waving. He said, ‘There’s mine’
BB: Now, when my uncle was on 9 squadron in ’43 of course. This was a bit later on in the war. The pilot i.e. my uncle and his navigator flew a second observer, a second crew. They went with a regular crew on a raid.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Who were about to finish their tour so the pilot and the navigator flew on that raid as supernumerary just to see what it was like.
WT: Only one. It was only the pilot went from our -
BB: Ok. Right.
WT: ‘cause he -
BB: They still did that in that place by the time you -
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They did one trip.
BB: Yeah. As a spare bod. And -
WT: That’s right.
BB: They came back.
WT: That’s right.
BB: And then got their own crew.
WT: That’s right.
BB: Was the air, was the Lancaster you had on 153 a brand new one or was it, had it been recycled?
WT: Well -
BB: From another crew?
WT: Well it was one of the, it was one of the -
BB: One of them.
WT: In fact we didn’t get I Item until about four or five and then it was regular hours.
BB: Ok.
WT: Flying. That’s what it says up there.
BB: Yeah my uncle did much the same thing. He did, he did it seemed to be a Bomber Command practice.
WT: Yeah.
BB: That they got the pilot and the nav to fly these initial sorties.
WT: Ahum.
BB: And then they were given a gash not gash but spare Lancs or –
WT; Yeah.
BB: To fly one or two trips.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: And then their own brand shiny new Lancaster arrived from the factory and they had that for the whole of the rest of their tour. My uncle’s Lancaster was called Spirit of Russia and it finished the war with a hundred and nine ops.
WT: Did it?
BB: And so it was lucky. But anyway we’re not talking about my uncle we’re talking about.
WT: Thomas.
BB: So there you are on ops.
WT: Yeah and we -
BB: With your scratch crew. Yeah.
WT: Yes and we carried on right up until well we did one on the 3rd of February ’45. No sorry the 7th of March ’45. And on the 8th we did a grand loop.
BB: Ah.
WT: Our pilot passed out.
BB: Oh.
WT: We think it was a fit and we were on our way to Castle.
BB: Ah.
WT: And we came out and [wing co Piley?] said, ‘You’ll be flying tonight’ and we said, ‘Not [so and so] likely until we know what’s happened to the skipper.’ He said, ‘You’ll be on a charge.’ I said, ‘I’ll see you there. Sir’ and left it at that.
BB: So, what, the was pilot was
WT: He -
BB: Obviously written off.
WT: Yes he was pretty.
BB: Wrtten off.
WT: He was gone. By that time they’d taken him away. By the time we’d got gathered together and he came back, tapped me on the shoulder and said, ‘It’s alright. The spare crew are going.’ so I saw him in the mess.
BB: He didn’t give you a spare pilot to fly that night.
WT: No. Well he wanted us to fly.
BB: Fly. So you didn’t do that.
WT: We didn’t go. No. We just didn’t. It was -
BB: That was your last trip?
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: So what happened then, Bruce went into hospital and eventually they realised he wasn’t coming out. They sent us home on leave and brought us back and I can’t remember whether they gave us three weeks or anyway we came back again and we did our last three with a Canadian no an Aussie pilot who’d lost his crew and had three to do.
BB: Right. Ok that -
WT: So he did three.
BB: That was usually the way.
WT: We thought we should have done one more so what we did was twenty nine and a half ‘cause we had an abortion in the middle of it.
BB: Right. Right. Ok and I gather that rather unfairly French targets counted for half.
WT: No.
BB: At that time of the war.
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: In fact the first one was Fort [Frederick Heinrich] just on the Dutch coast.
BB: Oh right. Ok.
WT: But that was a full.
BB: Ok.
WT: That was full.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They were all full.
BB: Yeah.
WT: ‘Cause we didn’t do very many French ones.
BB: No. Not at that stage. No.
WT: No. We were going out.
BB: No. No. Right.
WT: Including Dresden.
BB: Yes. Now what was you’re, ok we’ll get to Dresden later.
WT: Yes.
BB: ‘Cause it’s been quite controversial and everybody sees that as the bad thing that Bomber Command did. Um what what’s your opinion of that?
WT: My opinion is as I’ve said to many people we bombed Dresden because we, one, we were told to. But it turns out afterwards that Mr Churchill was given from the Russians three, three targets that needed to be hit, Dresden and two others. I don’t know which they were. And he was given to us, he gave them to Bomber Harris and said, ‘There’s the three. You do them whenever you think right.’ And we went on the Dresden -
BB: Yeah.
WT: Trip.
BB: Yeah Churchill gave them to Portal who was chief of the air staff.
WT: Yes and he -
BB: And Portal gave them to Harris.
WT: Yeah and Harris, Harris sent them.
BB: Just did what he was told basically.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah [?]
WT: But Harris said to us, you know, we didn’t, he chose them.
BB: Yes.
WT: He chose Dresden. Ten hours twenty that was.
BB: Yes it was a long trip.
WT: It was. And it was the best bonfire night I’ve ever seen.
BB: Yes it did. It was rather grand.
WT: But -
BB: As far as the crews were concerned –
WT: I found out afterwards and I’ve got the book saying -
BB: Yes.
WT: That Dresden was a target. It was full of troops. They were making very small arms stuff.
BB: Yeah.
WT: For submarines and things like that all scattered all over the place.
BB: Yeah it was a -
WT: So -
BB: Legitimate target.
WT: A legitimate target.
BB: Legitimate target. Yes. So that was Dresden and I think in the post war my own opinion and this is my own opinion and you know Churchill wanted to stand in the Conservative government. Labour were coming up and what we understand of labour it’s now called Labour it was a socialist government coming up and he wanted to back away from the actual how effective Bomber Command had been and um and more or less threw Harris to, to the wolves.
WT: And washed his hands.
BB: And washed his hands of it. But he did the same with Dowding after the Battle of Britain so there we go it says something about the great Churchill doesn’t it?
WT: No. I don’t, don’t respect him.
BB: No.
WT: Anymore.
BB: Anyway -
WT: Sorry.
BB: Enough of that.
WT: Go on.
BB: No. No. It’s ok but I saw Dresden on your bookcase and I thought I’d ask about it.
WT: I got it there.
BB: Now getting back to the crew.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And how you all trusted each other and had to rely on each other.
WT: Yeah.
BB: What, were there any, I mean were you scared?
WT: No.
BB: You weren’t scared.
WT: Never scared.
BB: Ok. Funny I’ve heard this a lot from Bomber Command crews. They weren’t, they were apprehensive but they weren’t particularly scared.
WT: No. We just went in and did it.
BB: And did it. Yeah ok. Now we’ve read a lot, or I’ve read a lot, there’s been a lot of post-war um study on LMF issues.
WT: Yes.
BB: Lack of moral fibre issues. In your time in Bomber Command did you ever come across anything of that sort?
WT: I think there was one. One night that I never found out true there was three of us three kites on a set of pads.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Or whatever you call them.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And we did a run up and then we used to come outside -
BB: Yeah.
WT: For a smoke or whatever knowing that the signal would go up, get in your kites, and there was a pilot on one of those things and I didn’t know him sat in the hedge smoking a cigarette and there was a little bit of a kafuffle and three staff cars came down and he went with them. Now, that was the bloke who had refused to go that night. When we got back everything was hushed.
BB: Was he commissioned?
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: We didn’t, I don’t know what had happened to him. I didn’t know the guy.
BB: He was just posted. That was it. Gone.
WT: It was just, he was just taken off. Yeah.
BB: Yeah ok. What year would that be roughly? Roughly. Doesn’t have to be exact.
WT: I can’t remember. It was certainly in ’44.
BB: Ok.
WT: ’45 I mean.
BB: ’45.
WT: The beginning of ’45.
BB: Because, coming back to my late uncle’s crew his rear gunner um Sergeant Clegg had been a pre-war warrant officer but had been busted down to sergeant many times for doing nasty things, naughty things I should say. I won’t go into details.
WT: Right. No.
BB: But he was always in and out of Sheffield. You know what Sheffield was?
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. He was always in and out of Sheffield and that’s another place that doesn’t have much publicity. It was the air crew rehabilitation centre or whatever they wanted to call it.
WT: Ahum.
BB: But I only found this out by looking at the form 500, 540.
WT: 540.
BB: Yeah and it had all the missions for my uncle and the crews and you’d see Sergeant Clegg and then you’d see three or four trips no Sergeant Clegg some other gash gunner had gone in and I asked some survivors on my late uncle’s crew what about Clegg? At first they were all very protective and then they said well actually Clegg was a bit of a lad and he got into trouble with drink and women and was always been sent to Sheffield but in in the air he was a perfect rigger just I mean you know my uncle trusted him implicitly and when he was at Sheffield my uncle felt really, really uncomfortable with this gash gunner sitting at the back who he didn’t know. But you know he got, he got through his tour unfortunately my uncle but was killed instructing.
WT: Our wireless op he was, he was an Australian and he was a silly B really and he drank like old boots so when he got in the kite he would do everything he had to do but Jack, our navigator was a great guy ‘cause he knew there was a group, a message to come. I’ve forgotten was it half hourly -
BB: Yeah.
WT: Quarter hourly.
BB: Half hourly.
WT: He’d give Digger a kick.
BB: Usually the weather and, yeah.
WT: We’d could usually hear, ‘Digger wake up you silly B.’ And he’d be, ‘Oh oh alright,’ he says and he never missed, he had everything down, he never missed a thing. He knew exactly where we were going.
BB: Yeah. That’s great. My uncle’s navigator was the old man of the crew. He was -
WT: Yeah.
BB: He was thirty two.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: He’d been a postmaster in the Isle of Man and had volunteered to be a navigator because he was very good at maths but he was the old man of the crew and the rest of the crew called him Pop. Because the average age on, the average age on my uncle’s crew was what nineteen, twenty.
WT: Ahum.
BB: My uncle himself he was twenty one when he was killed. And that’s having done thirty trips.
WT: I was, I got I was twenty one in Canada. While I was in Canada.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I got deferred service so so such a long time.
BB: Yeah.
WT: In fact I registered as I had to do.
BB: Was that because you were local government job that was deferred?
WT: No nothing to do with that at all. ‘cause they were happy.
BB: It wasn’t a reserved occupation or anything.
WT: No it wasn’t.
BB: No.
WT: It wasn’t reserved. What happened was I signed on as we had to do and I said look here’s my number. Oh yes well that’s ok. Three weeks later I got called up for the army and [noise off] that’s somebody downstairs.
BB: Oh right.
WT: Don’t take any notice of that. And I got called up for the army and I managed to get out of that with a big brigadier somebody that we well knew. He rang them up and he said silly B. He told you what was happening because they were going to come and fetch me.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So that worked out alright.
BB: Good.
WT: Because, you know it didn’t always go right.
BB: No.
WT: I was lucky.
BB: So there were, there were evidence of LMF when you were on the squadron.
WT: Just that one.
BB: Just that one.
WT: Just that I know of.
BB: Yeah. Exactly. Just that you know of. And he was commissioned.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. I’ve heard other stories where had it been a sergeant air crew Harris was so worried about this kind of thing that we would call it post-traumatic stress disorder.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Today um they were, they were lined up in front of the whole squadron, stripped of their chevrons.
WT: That’s right.
BB: And their brevets taken off. Which was very very harsh but it did get the message. And other aircrews I’ve spoken to they were more scared of that happening to them.
WT: That they -
BB: Then facing the Germans.
WT: So that kept them going.
BB: And I suppose that was Harris’ view. You can either be scared of me or you can be scared of them.
WT: Sure.
BB: Make your choice.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Um but it now the Americans had a completely different attitude to it in the 8th air force and they were flying daylight raids.
WT: Ahum.
BB: As you know. So there was a different thing. The other commands, coastal, fighter, transport they had their, it wasn’t so prevalent.
WT: No.
BB: In those commands. But it’s, it’s, it’s an issue that is very interesting academically and the Sheffield thing. So that might be something that might be an aspect of the Bomber Command research.
WT: [?]
BB: No I’m just saying but you knew of it, it happened on your squadron and that was -
WT: That’s it.
BB: Quietly posted away.
WT: Didn’t take no notice of it.
BB: Yes, that’s right. I mean, you know, a very good friend of my father’s, a chap called Musgrave who was a pathfinder, a pre-war fitter when the heavies came in he volunteered to be a flight engineer, went to St Athan, came out with [E] joined his crew at the Heavy Conversion Unit and went on and did his thing but he did ninety three ops at the end and I said to him once, sadly he’s no longer with us but I have his log books and he said, ‘Well, you know we were dead anyway after four,’ four to five ops in that tour no statistically, statistically -
WT: I know. Yes.
BB: Dead. So let’s go.
WT: I’m going to empty that.
BB: Oh I’m sorry. Right.
WT: Are you going to switch it off or not? Whichever you want to do.
BB: No I’ll just.
WT: I’ll run.
BB: No don’t run. Take your time.
WT: No. No.
BB: Take your time.
WT: It’s only two minutes.
BB: Yeah.
[Pause]
BB: Ok.
WT: Sorry about that.
BB: No, don’t be. No, it’s fine.
WT: You can’t stop it you see.
BB: No. I know you can’t. Thank you very much.
WT: You know.
BB: So that’s great.
WT: You know.
BB: That’s great.
That’s great. Sure
BB: We’ve covered why you wanted to join, you joined, you got re-mustered from pilot to bomb aimer sorry NavB er went to Canada for your initial training.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And then came back to the Heavy Conversion Unit. Lancaster finishing school.
WT: Right.
BB: And went to the OTU and got your crew.
WT: Yes. That’s right.
BB: And you did your, you did your trip. Was it twenty nine do you remember? You told me.
WT: We did twenty nine. I always say one was a half.
BB: Ok.
WT: We got out one night and we had an engine go.
BB: A boomerang.
WT: And she wasn’t very, we weren’t very happy but we carried on for a while and then another one started to go sick so we turned -
BB: Now -
WT: So we turned and came back.
BB: Yeah.
WT: That was about -
BB: What mission, what sortie was that?
WT: That was about the 8th of February.
BB: 8th of, yeah.
WT: Politz I think it was called.
BB: 8th of February 45.
WT: Hmmn?
BB: 8th of February 45. Yeah.
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And er when we got back somebody said, ‘Why didn’t you go on?’ And he had a few rings there and I said, ‘Sir look out on the pan. There’s an aircraft out there. It’s got two good engines. One is alright I think. The other one’s rough.’ I said, ‘There’s seven of us here.’
BB: What did the flight engineer think about it? He must have made the judgement on that?
WT: No, he had -
BB: The captain.
WT: He had to shut it down. It was -
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I said, ‘And you’ve got the seven of us are here are ready to go again.’ I said, ‘We didn’t go over and get a VC and lose your aircraft for you.’ Cause that -
BB: What did he say to that?
WT: So he said, ‘Well forget it.’ I said, ‘just as well [stress] sir.’
BB: Station commander?
WT: Hmmn?
BB: Was that the station commander?
WT: Yeah. No. It was the er -
BB: Squadron commander?
WT: No. It was the station commander. He happened to be there, yes.
BB: Yeah. Station master as they used to call them.
WT: They usually had four rings.
BB: Yeah. Group captain. Yes.
WT: There was the AOC there. He was there. He was great ‘cause I was friendly with his WAAF lady.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I used we used very friendly just chatted and all that and had a drink and I was saying good night to her outside his house one night and suddenly he tapped me on the shoulder, he was coming in. He said, ‘Don’t keep her up all night because she’s got to get me breakfast in the morning.’ He said, ‘This isn’t a -
BB: Yeah, but they knew what was going on.
WT: He knew.
BB: They loved their aircrew. Yeah.
WT: He was happy.
BB: Now -
WT: I’ve done a whole lot screed on me.
BB: I’ll look at that later.
WT: Yeah that’s what I wanted to -
BB: One other thing I wanted to mention to you because -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomber Command had a high instance of venereal disease. VD.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And it was, it was a big a big issue because crews were getting sick and having to go to Halton and all these other hospitals and Harris had a view of it that, ‘cause the chief medical officer in Bomber Command went to see him about it, right. Went to see Harris
WT: Ahum.
BB: To, you know, tell him, you know, it’s got to stop and he said, ‘If my old lags want to have a bit of fun let them have it because they could be dead tomorrow. Now get out of my office.’ He said something like that. But I mean did you, were you aware of any of that?
WT: No. No.
BB: Were there any kind of big posters?
WT: No it was -
BB: Or lectures?
WT: No. It was a good squadron as far as that was concerned. No. We had good fun. We had this -
BB: Yeah
WT: We did a lot of that.
BB: Right. But less of the other.
WT: As far as I’m concerned.
BB: Apparently it was a big problem in Bomber Command but probably in certain areas.
WT: We, we were lucky. I was lucky. I think we had a good squadron there.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They really were. I didn’t know all of them or anything.
BB: No. No, of course.
WT: I didn’t get to know them.
BB: No. No. No. You didn’t.
WT: No.
BB: And I suppose there was the usual horror story in the morning when you went in for breakfast and there were blank chairs. Guys didn’t come back.
WT: Yeah but then I mean people weren’t in because I was lucky I was in the mess lower ground floor. All I had to do was come out of my room turn left and right and there was the dining room.
BB: Right.
WT: So I was dead lucky. Well the bar well there was no bar because it was a peacetime mess.
BB: Sure.
WT: I mean we had to go down a little alleyway.
BB: Sure.
WT: And get served in the trap hatch as we called it.
BB: Right.
WT: The [corps?] was very good.
BB: Now inter relationships within the crew between commissioned and non-commissioned crew members? Any, now you flew as a crew and that was it but of course when you landed you went to your separate messes.
WT: Yes well the, Bruce and I were in -
BB: The other mess, officer’s mess.
WT: The other -
BB: Sergeant’s mess.
WT: Five were together in a house.
BB: In a house ok they were billeted in a house.
WT: One of the wartime houses they were in.
BB: Ok. Ok. Right. I’ve heard a lot of stories where they couldn’t mix formally on base so they went to the local pub and the crew got out all together.
WT: Well you couldn’t do it on base.
BB: No. I know.
WT: You couldn’t be walking -
BB: No. I know.
WT: Around chatting.
BB: No but I meant there was the officer’s mess and the sergeants mess.
WT: They couldn’t mix them up. No.
BB: So they went off base to do it. At least that’s what my uncle did.
WT: The only time we, the only time we mixed was the pre-ops meal.
Interview: Yeah.
WT: And usually that was the sergeant’s mess because it was bigger because of their numbers so we could join them there for the meal.
BB: That’s right.
WT: ‘We had our pre-op meal there altogether.
BB: Because you were one of the privileged guys in the Lancasters. PNB pilot/navigator/bombardier. They were the three main crew PNB and they were recruited -
WT: Ahum.
BB: You know as slightly more rigorously selected and recruited more rigorously than let’s say the gunners because you had the, had to have the education to do those jobs.
WT: Oh you did. Yes.
BB: And you had to have the right characteristics.
WT: Yeah.
BB: So -
WT: I had my London General School Certificate.
BB: Well that’s right. That’s right um well that was, that was good. Let’s see, course you came, I mean I’m not, the time you got into the squadron -
WT: Yeah.
BB: It was late ‘43 or early ’44?
WT: Do you know my memory.
BB: Yeah.
WT: It’s the age.
BB: It’s ok.
WT: Alright. My first op was on the 15th of October ‘44.
BB: ’44. So the war was, the war was still there. And -
WT: Oh yes.
BB: Still brutal.
WT: Oh yes.
BB: Bombers were still being lost.
WT: Yes.
BB: Right up to the last day.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: But was there any feeling of it can’t be long now or did you think it was just going to go on and on until it stopped. I mean did you have any sense that we were winning?
WT: No.
BB: And doing all that stuff?
WT: We were, as I said.
BB: D-day had finished of course.
WT: No, no, yeah it didn’t. D day, D-day, D-day was over, yes.
BB: Yes.
WT: When I was at OTU.
BB: Yeah but there was still, you know -
WT: Yes.
BB: Still the fighting.
WT: Oh yes well we were the old line.
BB: Still bombing.
WT: The line went further -
BB: Yes.
WT: And further back.
BB: Yes, that’s right.
WT: But there was still a line.
BB: Oh a lot of day -
WT: There was.
BB: Yeah. And did you go on any daylights? Because there were a lot of daylight raids coming in
WT: We did, we did the odd daylights. We did one, two, three. About three. No four. I think there were four -
BB: Four daylights and at that stage of the war was the Luftwaffe still effective or were they -.
WT: Hang on. The last one we did was in April.
BB: April.
WT: ‘45.
BB: Ok.
WT: That was at Nordhausen. Wherever that was.
BB: Nordhausen ok but the um but the Luftwaffe by that stage was essentially gone. I mean no fuel, and losses had been high.
WT: They were up in the air.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And I spotted and -
BB: Did you ever see any of the new jets? ME262 or -
WT: I was going to say because I spotted some one night when we were out and we couldn’t understand. We thought they were rockets and they seemed to be going straight up and this happened a couple of times. It was more over Holland.
BB: Oh the V2s coming off.
WT: No. It was, it was the -
BB: Oh the exhaust from the -
WT: New jets.
BB: The new jets. Oh ok.
WT: The new jets no the V2s had finished by that time.
BB: You didn’t, you didn’t
WT: But we, I reported it but didn’t know anything.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I just said I didn’t know what they were.
BB: Yeah ok.
WT: So that was up to them. I, I didn’t know what they were.
BB: No.
WT: Until after the war. I found out.
BB: Yes. Yes and the German night fighters were still around, prowling around um did you, did you at that time they had Junkers 88s and Messerschmitt’s 110s with the Schräge Musik. Upward firing guns.
WT: Yeah. That was yeah.
BB: When they started to appear crews would just see this massive explosion in the sky and -
WT: Ahum.
BB: Thought they’d been hit by flak. They hadn’t, they hadn’t realised that they were getting under the -
WT: No.
BB: The belly and er it took a long time for Bomber Command to actually tell the crews -
WT: Yeah.
BB: About it.
WT: We knew about it.
BB: You knew about it but it, it was a very effective night fighter technique and -
WT: We only, we used to see searchlights in the sky.
BB: Yes.
WT: And there was the old master one.
BB: Yes.
WT: The red one.
BB: Yes and that was the radar and if that locked on to you the radar guided one -
WT: That was radar but one of them was coming towards us and I was screaming to Bruce and he said give me an idea of timing and I said, ‘Now,’ and what we did then we went straight through it.
BB: Yeah.
WT: As quick we could and he went like this and he disappeared.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So in other words he’d he’ll find somebody else.
Instructor: Yeah he’d find somebody else and ‘cause once you’d been combed that was it.
WT: We did it twice.
BB: More or less. Did it twice.
WT: That happened twice.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Ahum.
BB: That was it to get out.
WT: We didn’t get fired at.
BB: Well it happened to my uncle once and he actually put the aircraft straight down the path of the searchlight as best he could.
WT: The front gunner.
BB: With the front gunner blazing like mad.
WT: I would that’s right.
BB: And quick get out of the way and that ‘cause they changed that but it was -
WT: No. But we were, we were lucky.
BB: The [line was still] well ok with the advance of the allies but the German night fighter force went on quite effectively until more or less the end were constrained by fuel at the end and losses.
WT: It was.
BB: And losses of course. But what would between the flak and the night fighters and collisions and all that sort of thing what would you say was the main, the main fear? Night fighters?
WT: I don’t think we had fear.
BB: No.
WT: I’m sorry if -
BB: You put it away.
WT: It sounds big headed but -
BB: No, no, no.
WT: I don’t. I don’t think.
BB: No. I’m not I’m not. Yeah.
WT: We knew we had a job to do. If we didn’t do it -
BB: Ok. I’ll put it -
WT: We were in trouble.
BB: I’ll put it I’ll put it another way.
WT: Yeah. Go on.
BB: When you had the intelligence briefing.
WT: Yeah.
BB: At the brief.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Obviously they briefed you on night fighter tactics
WT: Yeah
Instructor: And where the flak concentrations -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Were and your route was planned.
WT: Yeah.
BB: To avoid these things and you had Window ah Window.
WT: Window.
BB: Were you dropping Window at that stage as a regular thing?
WT: All the way. All the way we could.
BB: And you had Boozer giving you the electronic aid that latched on to the night fighter radar.
WT: I didn’t do anything about that.
BB: Ok. That must have been with the wireless op.
WT: Wireless op had that.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Because he had, he had a little book.
BB: Yeah. That’s right because the Germans countered that by finding the frequency and all the -
WT: That’s right.
Instructor: And all the rest of it.
WT: That’s right.
BB: Everything like that. It went back and forth I think on the -
WT: Yeah he had that on his table.
BB: Yes. Ok. Rebecca and Boozer and all this stuff.
WT: Yeah we had [?]
BB: Yeah but window was quite effective, yeah.
WT: We did that religiously.
BB: Yes.
WT: I was glad to get rid of it mind.
BB: Yes.
WT: Get in the blooming way.
BB: Now the, my uncle’s wireless operator, he was the warmest guy on the Lanc. Everybody else was cold but he was the warmest behind his little curtain.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Um so he was either too hot or too cold but usually hot.
WT: I was happy.
BB: You were alright in your -
WT: I was alright.
BB: Your place.
WT: Where I was.
Instructor: Could you, you were usually you were at the front of course.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah and I mean for take-off you weren’t there you were probably back -
WT: For take-off we had an arrangement. When we were on OTU -
BB: Yeah.
WT: They trained the, what do you call it, to take off with Bruce?
BB: Yeah.
WT: What’s the, God -
BB: Flight engineer.
WT: Flight engineer. Sorry, I’ve got amnesia.
BB: It’s alright.
WT: No the flight engineer he trained, he was trained to take off and land so -
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WT: Fine. Instead of me being down in the nose which was a bad place to be -
BB: Yeah, Yeah.
WT: I’d be sitting on the engineer’s seat and there were two red wheels and those were the fuel.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And they said to me if I ever saw a red light come up.
BB: Scream.
WT: Do that.
BB: Turn it off.
WT: No turn them both off.
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: And that’s what I did until he poked me in the back and he said, ‘I’ve finished Bob, now’ and I’d say, ‘Cheers.’ and I’d go back to my office. We did that. I came up to landing the same way.
BB: Right. Now again I’m sorry to go back again to my uncle’s crew because it’s, it’s not him we’re talking about but they were representative. His bomb aimer, every time they were approaching the target, the whole crew would get on you know well the captain would say, ‘Try and make it one run this time will you?’ ‘Cause you know, ‘Sorry I’ve got to go around again boss. You know it was like it was never did so it was -
WT: Never did one more round. We went in every time.
BB: Excellent. Excellent.
WT: ‘cause I think it was a question of where you were.
BB: Yes, I understand. In the bomber stream. Yes.
WT: You know, in the stream. But I never had to once.
BB: Because you know the Germans were great at having dummy markers and flares.
WT: Sure.
BB: And changing the, trying to get a feel for the aiming point and, you know.
WT: And the whole thing when you worked it out the whole cross wind.
BB: Yes. Yes.
WT: You could pick it up
Instructor: Yes,
WT: Ages before you
BB: Right.
WT: And I’d get Bruce to change so that we had a good direction.
BB: Right. Ok.
WT: And he was very good ‘cause he just used the pedals to to do
BB: [the rudder bar] yes that’s right to correct the [yaw] My uncle’s bomb aimer only went around I think twice on one target but it was, it was, it was an important one. Um ‘cause my uncle went to Peenemunde. He did the Peenemunde raid. Well he was lucky. He was in the first wave. The diversion raids had, there were no night fighters because -
WT: No.
BB: They had, they weren’t there.
WT: They were somewhere else.
BB: They were somewhere else.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But the guys in the third wave-
WT: They copped it didn’t they?
BB: They copped it. Yeah. But of course they weren’t told what it was for.
WT: We were very, very lucky. I really think we were.
BB: I think luck had a big part to play whether you survived your tour or not
WT: I think so.
BB: And that yes as well
WT: Yes.
BB: That and a great crew and a competent crew.
WT: Well our navigator was red hot.
BB: Yeah.
WT: ‘cause one day Bruce said to him, ‘Jack, why don’t you let Bill take over?’ And before I could say anything he said, Bill you don’t mind or Bobs they used to call me. ‘Bobs you don’t mind but I’d rather be responsible myself for what’s happening.’ I said, ‘I’d rather you did.’ And he did. And he didn’t want me to help with the Gee. He did it all himself.
BB: No. Yeah. Yeah.
WT: He wanted to do it all himself. No, he did it all himself.
BB: Yeah. My uncle’s navigator too. He had all these aids.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But he liked to do it himself and used Gee as a backup you know and -
WT: You know Jack was a good navigator.
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: In fact I contacted him after the war. He was over in er, on the east, west coast somewhere and I had a couple of words with him, He got taken ill and died just like that within nine months of my knowing him.
BB: Oh dear.
WT: There’s one of our crew left still here. Harry the rear gunner. He’s down in Yorkshire.
BB: Oh right I must get his -
WT: He’s not a hundred percent.
BB: No.
WT: At the moment.
BB: No.
WT: And we have a reunion of 153 but it’s got that about there’s only about two members.
BB: No.
WT: That go. It’s all the associate members.
BB: I know.
WT: But they meet every year down in err oh down the road -
BB: Scampton oh in Yorkshire. No in -
WT: Lincoln.
BB: Lincoln. Scampton, Waddington.
WT: No. In Lincoln itself.
BB: Oh Lincoln. Ok
WT: In a pub, in a, in a hotel
BB: Yes.
WT: And go to BBMF.
BB: Yes.
WT: And BBMF -
BB: Yes
WT: Bring them in.
BB: Yeah it’s great. I’ve been there.
WT: They are very much with us.
BB: I had the very great privilege of flying in the BBMF Lancaster.
WT: Did you?
BB: Yeah I was on duty as a reservist and briefing and debriefing crews. Modern crews.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they said do you want, do you want a flight? And I said yeah. They said, ‘There’s Jacko Jackson over there.’
WT: Ah.
BB: ‘He’s the captain.’ He said, ‘Go and see Jacko.’
WT: Yeah.
BB: And he’ll fix you up and I went across and I said, I was a flying officer at the time and I said, ‘Good morning sir.’ And he said, ‘Yeah. I know about you. You’re coming with me on a one hour flip around in the Lanc.’ We were doing a test, air test of something so
WT: Ahum.
BB: It was wonderful and I told him about my uncle and all that and I went to every position except the rear gunner position.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They wouldn’t let you in there but I went mid upper gunner, I went down the bomb aimer and it was the bomb aimer’s place. It was, it was great but you get a sense of how that main spar going across could be a real hindrance if you had to get out.
WT: I’ve got some photographs I don’t know where they are now of our people in that one going over the main spar.
BB: With all the kit on?
WT: No. Well we didn’t have that. We used to throw that down over the top but there’s one of the ladies, she took over as the squadron scribe, association scribe and I still keep in touch with her and there’s one of her looking over the top and all I could see was her backside so it appeared on the thing
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: Guess who?
BB: Guess who. Because you either went out the main door at the back.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Or you went out the bomb aimers hatch at the top.
WT: Hatch.
BB: Yeah and when that, if that’s in a spin or you know it was difficult but it was difficult getting out of the Lancaster but it was quite difficult when those things -
WT: Sure.
BB: When they caught you.
WT: I say, you know, we were so lucky.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So lucky.
BB: Yeah. So did all your crew that you trained with and flew with survive the war?
WT: Yes we all survived.
BB: All survived.
WT: Together yes we all survived together and after that we were dispersed to various place
BB: Of course. Yes.
WT: I went one way, somebody went, Harry funnily enough he was a sergeant he was sent to India and he was in the post office out there somewhere and they dropped him to corporal.
BB: Yeah. That happened a lot.
WT: Terrible that was. I couldn’t understand that.
BB: Wartime temporary. Now you’re a corporal. Yes.
WT: Yeah.
Instructor: That’s right. Yeah. And err in your own case when the war finished when did you actually leave the air force? Was it ‘46 sometime or -
WT: Yeah. I think, ohI can’t remember offhand.
BB: Well just vaguely?
WT: It’s in my in -
BB: Logbook?
WT: No. It’s in my script somewhere.
BB: Oh ok. Well anyway it was most. Most were let loose by 1947.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Most.
WT: Where did I put my scribe script?
BB: Oh don’t worry about it but where
WT: Oh, here it is in my hand.
BB: What did they have you do in that time?
WT: Oh.
BB: Were you supernumerary somewhere or were you -
WT: No they wanted, wanted us to train as something and I trained as an equipment officer.
BB: Right ok so the whole surplus aircrew thing.
WT: Yes.
BB: Because of the war
WT: Yeah.
Instructor: They said you can go home, you’re a good bloke, you’re commissioned we need you blah blah blah but you got to remuster as something else.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And, and -
WT: And I was told that’s what I was going to be. I did a course for six weeks on equipment. Got sent to RAF Strubby.
BB: Oh I know where -
WT: Which had been -
BB: Strubby is in Lincolnshire.
WT: Coldest place on earth. Was shut down and it was ready to be everything taken out.
BB: Right.
WT: And I had a few bods there to do that and we had trucks coming out
BB: Taking -
WT: Getting rid of stuff and so on.
BB: That’s right
WT: And I had another guy ‘cause I was attached to some maintenance unit over on the coast and they sent a guy to help me Frank Wilkes bless him a brummy and we worked together and we both got our going off together so we, we, we went off down to London to get our -
BB: Right got your demob suit and out you went.
WT: I didn’t want a hat so he put his, he put my hat that I would have on. I took it outside and I gave it to - [laughs]
BB: So, ok. So you were demobbed.
WT: Yeah.
BB: After all of that. Having gone through that having gone through all that with Bomber Command being demobbed, done your trips with all the trials and tribulations and terror of what could have happened. What did you do then?
WT: I went back to my job.
BB: You went back to your job.
WT: It was reserved. I joined the health department of the Cornwall County Council in September ‘39, no August ’39.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I was there then until I joined up but my job was held for me, my, while I was only on my two bob or whatever it was a week my pay was made up.
BB: Right.
WT: But as soon as I got more that stopped and I had to go in and pay the, pay the difference
BB: And obviously you rebuilt your life.
WT: Yeah.
BB: After that and here we are and well done.
WT: My wife, my wife was -
BB: I was going to ask about that.
WT: She was -
BB: Did you meet her in the RAF?
WT: No I met her in, at work.
BB: At work.
WT: I remember it was -
BB: Post war work.
WT: Yeah. The uniform did it.
BB: Ah the uniform did it.
WT: So what I would -
BB: It still had the pull of the air crew.
WT: Well I always went up in my full uniform.
BB: Of course you did.
WT: And it was funny when we had that grand loop.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I went home on leave. I went up to see somebody and I went in see the boss ‘cause I was his favourite. He was the first boy post boy he’d ever appointed ‘cause he was new.
BB: Ah.
WT: Dr Curnow and
BB: Curnow?
WT: Curnow same as Cornwall
BB: Yeah.
WT: Curnow.
BB: Yeah.
WT: C u r n o w.
BB: Yes I had, one of my medical officers was from Cornwall. His name was Curnow.
WT: Yeah. He, he stayed there all the time. For a long, long time and he said to me, when I’d finished I went back, and there was a brr brr and his secretary said that, ‘Yes he is.’ She said, ‘He says go in.’ He said, ‘Sit down. Have you finished?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Hold your hands out.’ He said, ‘You couldn’t do that last time you were here,’ he said, ‘You had the twitch.‘
BB: I was going to come to that
WT: [?] yeah
BB: This chap Musgrave I was telling you about. The guy that did the ninety three trips. He had a permanent twitch. It was sort of –
WT: Ahum.
BB: Like that.
WT: No. No.
BB: But he had a twitch and everybody knew you know he had been
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomber command but he was very, not because he was boasting about it they just knew that he got out. He finished the war with DFC, DFM and God knows else what but he’d been a pre-war guy but he had a twitch and I asked him once where he got it. How it started. And he said he’d had a crash and er he survived. One or two guys didn’t and that affected him.
WT: That was, that was from when it started because he had said he hadn’t noticed it before.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He was a good chief was Doc Curnow.
BB: So
WT: I was his boy.
BB: Yeah. So these things did have a knock on, knock on affect.
WT: Sure.
BB: Now, the, and then you had all that post war thing you know getting a job, getting married, a family and all of that. Most of the Bomber Command people that I have met and indeed other wartime aircrew not just Bomber Command they never, ever talked about it for years and years. Never.
WT: I agree.
BB: And some of them really still are reticent to talk um either it’s too painful for them one way or another.
WT: I don’t know.
BB: Or it’s just that was that was a bit of my life I’ve now put it in a cupboard.
WT: That was me.
BB: And get on with life.
WT: For a long, long time.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Until eventually I joined you know the Aircrew Association and so on
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WT: Especially when I came up here.
BB: Well I mean you guys were young and you’d gone through such a lot.
WT: Ahum.
BB: And it was very hectic and life was for today.
WT: Yes.
BB: Tomorrow you didn’t know if it was going to happen.
WT: I was, I was getting, I was married.
BB: Yeah. You had responsibilities.
WT: And we had our -
BB: And other things took priority over all of that.
WT: Yes, there were.
BB: And then of course there was this post war denial about Bomber Command.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And what they did and all the rest of it. How did that make you feel? Did it make you feel angry? Did it make you feel what the hell did we do it all for?
WT: I could have killed Churchill. Easily. You know, without any argument.
BB: Because of what he did.
WT: Because of Bomber Harris.
BB: I mean they called him Butch.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because you know but he he loved his crews and -
WT: He was, he came to Scampton once and he was great.
BB: And they loved him
WT: Yeah.
BB: Despite you know sending them off every night knowing that x number of Lancaster’s wouldn’t come back or Halifaxes or whatever. But that’s how he got his name Butch, Butcher.
WT: Yes.
BB: Butcher Harris but they seemed to get on with him.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They seemed to like, you know, his manner.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And his we’re going to do this, we’re going to do that.
WT: The one person on the squadron the squadron we didn’t like was the four ringer.
BB: The group captain.
WT: The group. He was not a nice fellow at all. We didn’t like him a bit and he used to come in to get his fags so we’d push him to the top of the queue so he could get the hell out.
BB: Did he ever fly? Did he ever go off?
WT: Yes he did a few.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He did one or two.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And he was, fortunately not with us but the AOC was there. He was -
BB: Was that Cochrane? Or Saunby?
WT: I don’t know what he was called.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He was a lovely fellow.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He had his own little [?]
BB: Yeah.
WT: In fact his WAAF
BB: Driver.
WT: No.
BB: His PA.
WT: No. Looked after him.
BB: Oh right.
WT: Looked after him. I got courting with her a bit.
BB: Ahh.
WT: Nothing like, nothing
BB: Nothing like going for the top.
WT: Untoward and one night we were saying goodnight and suddenly there was this tap on my shoulder, ‘Hurry up, don’t keep her up all night. She’s got to get my breakfast in the morning.’
BB: The morning. You said, ‘Yes sir.’
WT: Now who would have said that?
BB: They knew and, they knew and they let the guys get on with it.
WT: I saw her afterwards.
BB: In that respect.
WT: And she said that he laughed his head off.
BB: Oh that’s great. That’s great.
WT: They were a good lot.
BB: And now you’ve got your grandchildren, great grandchildren.
WT: Great grandchildren.
BB: And you’re going to be giving them your logbook and one thing and another.
WT: Paul my grandson. I’ve got a grandson and a granddaughter. Paul is supposed to inherit all my stuff.
BB: Yes.
WT: Which he will do.
BB: Yes. Good.
WT: But in the meantime.
BB: I hope you’ve written that down in a will or something?
WT: I don’t. My son knows.
BB: Ok.
WT: He knows. He’s as good as gold but Paul sorry my oldest grandson, great grandson Jack is very keen on Lancasters ‘cause they live in Lancaster.
BB: Yes of course.
WT: And he knows all about that so Jack has got lots of stuff to do with Lancasters and I said I’ve got all these books I don’t know whether I ought to be getting rid of them sometime. Pete said to me, that’s my son, the other day, ‘Dad don’t do anything until August. Jack’s coming up. He’s mad on the Lancaster’s and things, he’s got stuff all over the place so, in his room.’ so there’s four Lancaster – one, two, three, four, five books.
BB: Yeah.
WT: But you know
BB: Garbett and Goulding books.
WT: Yeah I met him and one other there and he’ll have those whatever happens. What, what about the others in the bottom lot I don’t know ‘cause the top one is all Cornwall but they’re spoken for one way or another.
BB: I have four hundred such books and I do a lot of research and I write occasionally in Flypast and other magazines um and they’re just for my own research. I mean, for example you said you were 153 I went to the books oh yes but now coming back to the controversial issue of medals.
WT: Sorry.
BB: Did you have to apply for your medals or did they come through the post eventually to you?
WT: I had to apply for them.
BB: You had to apply for them. And when did you apply for them
WT: Lord knows. I can’t remember.
BB: Yeah because they ok they had a lot to get through.
WT: No. That’s not true. I, I when I was an equipment officer before while I was still under training a bit with another thing.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I was asked to go up the headquarters somewhere and I took the logbook with me and I went through about my medals then and then I said, ‘Yes but I want the Air Crew Europe.’ ‘Well you can’t have it.’ ‘Well I said I don’t want any more.’ I went to go out and they pushed me back in again and they insisted that I had to have these four.
BB: Right, so now the, I had a very, my father knew another very nice man and his name was Slim Summerville. He had been a pre-war regular but he was a wireless operator I gather on Whitleys the one’s that flew like that -
WT: Ahum.
BB: And he hated them. But then he was shot down in November 1940 in France he made a crash landing. All the crew got out, sorry Holland, all the crew got out still fly, they flew in their number ones. Odd. But anyway they were all sitting around, standing around this aircraft trying to get it to burn and they couldn’t burn it. The Germans came. November ‘40 Battle of Britain had just finished. There they were. This Luftwaffe feldwebel came to them and said, ‘look we’ve got nowhere to put you but this Dutch, this Dutch farmer will look after you, we’ll put one of our guards there promise you won’t try and escape.’ ‘We can’t do that,’ they said but, ‘Never mind you go there.’ A month they were in this farmhouse having a life, they thought this is alright. This is ok. And then things got, they were then they were sent back in to Germany and they were sent towards the east. They were part of the great march but and he finished the war all the rest of it. When he was ill he came, I went to see him and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘Bruce I never claimed my medals because I didn’t think I’d have very many being a POW but I’d like to pass them on to my grandchild.’ So I said, ‘Well ok.’ He said, ‘I can’t give you my logbook because it was when I was taken prisoner it was all lost and whatever.’ So I had to go to the National Archive in Kew and reconstruct his logbook and I took all this stuff and I said right your entitled to the Aircrew Europe, you’ve done, you’ve done all these missions between the qualifying dates of the -
WT: Yes sure.
BB: Award. Why, they said he wasn’t entitled to it. That he was only going to get the ‘39 to ‘45 star, the defence medal and a war medal. That’s all he was going to get.
WT: Oooh there’s one -
BB: Because he was -
WT: There’s one missing there really.
BB: So -
WT: France and Germany.
BB: Yeah but he was a POW. He wasn’t there.
WT: But did he -
BB: So -
WT: But he’d been doing work.
BB: Yeah but he was captured in 1940. So anyway so I went back and I said no you did x number of missions on the Whitleys you’re entitled to the Air Crew Europe so he said, ‘Well you write. I’ll give you permission and you write.’ So I wrote back to them first to air historical branch then to RAF records and they sent, they said, ‘Yes you’re right.’ So they reissued it. But with, but with the Air Crew Europe and I had them mounted for him and I took them to the hospital to see him in hospital and I pinned them to his pillow and he died three hours later. But he was so happy -
WT: Lovely.
BB: To have got them.
WT: Of course he was.
BB: Yeah. And he said -
WT: I’ve got mine here somewhere.
BB: All the rest was rubbish but Air Crew Europe’s the one so I am going to take your fight up.
WT: No.
BB: If I can do it for him, I can do it for you.
WT: Oh, there’s no point.
BB: Yes there is.
WT: I shouldn’t bother.
BB: Your grandchildren need it. I understand how you feel but if you’re entitled to it why don’t you take it?
WT: I’ve got them somewhere. I thought I had them there.
BB: Let’s have a look. Oh there they are. Right.
WT: They’re a replacement ‘cause I lost mine.
BB: Did you?
WT: And I lost the -
BB: What happened?
WT: Hmmn?
BB: What happened?
WT: I don’t know it was -
BB: They were all issued unnamed.
WT: It was in a move.
BB: They were all issued unnamed.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Now you see if I get you the Air Crew Europe. Right. Just say, let’s just say no this annoys me with the the whole medal thing you did all of that. Now I know you’re very proud and, and, and you don’t particularly want it but you earned it and this parsimonious government took their bloody time in giving you the Bomber Command clasp which I, did you ever claim it?
WT: No.
BB: Right.
WT: Yes I got that.
BB: Right.
WT: Yes.
BB: You need to sew that on.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Now, if I get you the Air Crew Europe if by chance we’re successful they’ll probably give you the Air Crew Europe with the France and Germany clasp.
WT: Ahum.
BB: ‘cause you couldn’t have both.
WT: Ahum.
BB: So you have to give that one back.
WT: I think the other one’s still there ‘cause I always said I can’t sew so
BB: So what I’m saying is they’ll probably take that one probably ask you to return that one.
WT: I’m not fussed about it you know.
BB: I’m just going through the procedure.
WT: I know.
BB: And um they that’s what they would do. Um but it is such a prestigious, it was only it was the only thing of the stars that I’ve talked to with the guys before that meant anything was the Air Crew, Air Crew Europe whether your coastal, bomber or whatever -
WT: Yes. Exactly.
BB: It was. Because they didn’t get a medal. That was only medal they actually got that was you know air force.
WT: I got mine. Those are replacements.
BB: Yes.
WT: Because -
BB: Exactly I’ll take a photo of those later.
WT: In transferring -
BB: Well -
WT: Something got lost and we never found them. I didn’t, I didn’t -
BB: Let me put it this way let me see what I can do and if I can do it you’ll take it. Right? You’ll take it if I can get it for you.
WT: Alright.
BB: Fine. Good.
WT: You’ve won.
BB: I feel very strongly about that ’cause you know medals are very emotive things even today.
WT: I won’t argue with you.
BB: No. Good. Ok well I’m going to stop the interview now. I think we’ve covered all the ground. Is there anything else you’d like to say that I may have forgotten?
WT: No.
BB: To ask?
WT: [If you]
BB: Are these your target pictures?
WT: Target pictures.
BB: Yeah.
WT: We were allowed to have those as the crew, the crew -
BB: Now -
WT: Took some as well.
BB: The other thing that used to get people a bit jumpy, ‘Have you got the flash skip? I’ve got to go around again.’ And, ‘Oh go on then.’
WT: No.
BB: Because a lot of crews were really ‘cause that was flying straight and level for a bit of a time to get that flash picture and if you missed it the first time you had to go back and at debriefing as you know once they processed the film -
WT: [?] that’s right.
BB: You were kind of ticked in the box that it was ok.
WT: The problem was the bottom of those it was -
BB: Yeah.
WT: A job to read
BB: Yeah.
WT: Very difficult to read
BB: It is.
WT: All the stuff.
BB: It is but -
WT: But the one there the first one Fort [Frederick Heindricks].
BB: Yeah.
WT: That was an aiming point.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I was told.
BB: Right.
WT: You could see the smoke coming away.
BB: How, we hear a lot about the pathfinders and the marking and all these different marking techniques. Were they, were they good? I mean were they -
WT: They were good as far as we were concerned. We would come up and every now and again they would say please you know bomb on so and so -
BB: Yeah they had the master bomber saying forget that that’s a spoof yeah go to -
WT: That’s right.
BB: Bomb on the greens.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomb on the greens. That kind of thing.
WT: Yeah. We had that.
BB: Yeah and because so -
WT: And that, that’s they’re all the same
BB: Oh ground zero.
WT: That’s, no that that’s Dresden.
BB: That’s what I’m saying ground zero at Dresden
WT: I wouldn’t know. With, you can see the modern building.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And the one that’s been destroyed.
BB: Yes.
WT: A friend of mine he lives here in Morpeth and they went over to Dresden and he came back he said, ‘Bill I thought I’d take a photograph. This is what you did you B.’
BB: Well yeah tough it was a legitimate target.
WT: Oh yeah as far as I was concerned it was.
BB: Thank you very much. They’re very interesting.
WT: Yes, I, those are, you know, to me, the crew had some you know.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So -
BB: My uncle had some and they used to put them in their logbook.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because the pilot’s logbooks were different as you know.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They were slightly bigger.
WT: Yeah well they were. That’s why mine is a bit of a mess and just written on. You know, scrolled
BB: I’ll have a look at that later. So I’m going to stop the interview now. Are you happy with that?
WT: Yes you -
BB: Ok.
WT: I don’t know if you saw those. That’s my doings. That’s, that’s how I got to know you.
BB: That’s all the stuff.
WT: And that was the newsletter. Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And that’s, yeah, that’s ok.
BB: And there’s your medals back.
WT: Oh there’s, ok.
BB: Give those back to you there.
Yeah oh don’t worry about that. Oh yes that’s the Bomber Command clasp in there.
BB: Oh yes well let’s have a look, you’ve got to sew that on haven’t you?
WT: Well yes I said my daughter and grand daughter.
BB: Well why don’t you. Is it still in it’s envelope? Let me just take a picture of that ‘cause that’s you. That’s-
WT: You can undo that clip better than I can.
BB: That’s very nice.
WT: That’s what it should be.
BB: About bloody time too.
WT: I think -
BB: I was -
WT: I, I hated the thing actually it should have been a blooming thing like the other people had.
BB: Yeah. I was I was privileged in being selected to be an usher at the Bomber Command memorial opening in London.
WT: Lovely.
BB: And I was in my squadron leader stuff and all my own medals on and it was great and I was given, I was given six, three Australian, three New Zealand, three Australian and three New Zealand air crew to look after. To host.
WT: [?]
BB: Yeah and they were all of your vintage, your age, you know, now.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they’d come all the way from Australia and New Zealand for free business class with [doorbell] New Zealand sorry
WT: That could be your wife.
BB: Could be my wife.
WT: Oh she’ll be, open the door.
BB: Oh I can get that for you sorry.
WT: No that’s alright. It could be somebody else. Hello.
Other: Hello.
WT: I’ve got someone with me. We thought it was his wife.
Other: Oh a parcel for me.
WT: Oh yes darling.
Other: That’s why I came. That’s very kind of you, Bill.
WT: That’s alright.
Other: Thank you very much indeed.
WT: I’ll keep the sixpence you’ll, I’ll send you the bill.
Other: Sixpence and you’ll send me the bill.
WT: We do things for one another.
BB: Yeah of course you do.
WT: Only around the corner. She’s a dear.
BB: Well done for that.
WT: When I came home last time from hospital I weren’t all that brilliant and she was doing shopping, she was insisting on doing my laundry and all that and I said -
BB: So -
WT: So I took a parcel in for her today.
BB: Right so -
WT: Where’s that going in there wasn’t it
BB: It’s with your medals yeah. Yeah yeah. So I’m with these guys and we’re all sitting them all down and I was getting and it was a pretty hot day and one of the Australians said ‘cause my name’s Bruce you see.
WT: Yeah.
BB: ‘Here, Brucie go and get us a beer mate.’ So I went and got them the beer and they ate this up and, ‘Here, I’m pretty hungry mate. Got any sandwiches?’ And we were going away and they said, ‘Look mate it’s getting hot here when’s this thing going to you know finish?’ I said, ‘Well, you know, the royals are going to be there. The Queen’s going to open it and so on and Prince Charles and Camilla will come and see you.’ ‘Right. Right. Ok.’ So this went on and the RAF BBMF Lancaster flew down and dropped these poppies but it got it wrong got it, slightly, slightly off track and all the poppies ended up in Piccadilly all over the place and -
WT: That’s one of them,
BB: Yes. Yes I know. I recognised that,
WT: Yeah.
BB: And this Australian looked up and he said, ‘Oh Christ the navig, the navs all wrong you know’ and, you know, ‘I suppose you can’t get the people these days’ and all that sort of talk, you know. Anyway I sent one of my little one of my helpers, one of my guys in our squadron, a corporal. I said, ‘Go and pick up as many of those as you can get.’
WT: Sure.
BB: And he met a policemen, this guy, with his helmet -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Just doing this you see and the policeman kept some in his pocket and he gave the rest to this guy so he gave each one of these guys one of the poppies and that was great but this Australian who was really quite vocal, nice bloke but he had with him a group captain Royal Australian Air Force from the embassy must have been the air attaché standing maybe just about there and you’re the guy right and he said, ‘Brucie, look when the royals come down can I ask when I’m going to get my’ dot dot ‘medal because I’m getting old and I’m going to fall of my perch mate and I’d rather like it.’ And I said, ‘Well you could but I don’t think it would be, you know, polite.’ He said, ‘[Dot dot] polite mate I’ve been waiting a long time.’ And then the group captain came across and said, ‘Look I’ve told you about that. That’s my job. Leave that to me.’ You know. Blah. ‘Well you’d better hurry up mate.’ And that was the end of that conversation and of course you get your, get the clasp.
WT: Oh dear.
BB: But it all went it all went it all went very well and every time I’m in London and I’ll be there next week I always get one of those British Legion wooden little wooden crosses.
WT: Yes.
BB: With the poppy on.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And I take my uncle’s crew and -
WT: Put their names down
BB: Just the one name. So my uncle first, then the bomb aimer, then and I put them all down and I look at the little little book they’ve got there.
WT: Yeah
BB: And its people write things down.
WT: Yeah
BB: And there’s obviously flowers. There’s things that gets me is this little one flower and an old plastic see through bag or
WT: Yeah.
BB: Something. With, ‘To Uncle George’ killed blah blah blah blah and you think gosh, you know and it’s such a focus that place for everybody to come and do stuff.
WT: Standing there with tears streaming down my eyes that day
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
WT: I couldn’t even -
BB: And I said to the Ben Fund people
WT: I shouted once, ‘Excuse me I’ve got to go to the toilet. Don’t do anything.’ [laughs]
BB: And I said to the Ben Fund guys who run it you know I hope someone collects all this stuff and takes it away.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because -
WT: Sure.
BB: You should do a book after five years or something with all the, ‘cause they leave copies of pictures.
WT: Sure.
BB: And crew pictures and -
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know, it’s a great archive there just on its own.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: One of their associate members who’s a bit of a B really but he rang up and said Bill I’ve got a poppy that came falling down. Did you want one? And he sent it up to me.
BB: Oh excellent.
WT: So that’s why I popped it on there.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And it keeps falling down but it fell behind one day so I put it there -
BB: I think -
WT: So it doesn’t go anywhere else.
BB: I think –
And by the way that -
BB: Yes.
WT: Is as good a representation of a lot of us coming off -
BB: Ops.
WT: Off ops yes.
BB: I’ll take a picture of that.
WT: The actual depth of that thing.
BB: Yeah. I’ll take a picture of that but -
WT: It’s terrific.
BB: I think I have at home a programme from that day. I’ll send it to you. From the Bomber memorial.
WT: I was here then.
BB: Yes I know but I’ve got -
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know I think I’ve got a number of spares. I will send it to you.
WT: But I would love to have been there.
BB: Well it was such a privilege.
WT: Two or three of our members were there.
BB: Yeah it was a privilege to be there and, and
WT: ‘cause we had a, I started a help doing it with Johnny [Johns?] on, who by the way has written a lovely book on our stuff. Did I have that out? No I didn’t
BB: That’s ok well I’ve got a feeling -
WT: That is
BB: Ok.
WT: That’s on.
BB: 153.
WT: That is done. Is on the internet somewhere or something.
BB: Is it?
Yeah.
BB: I’ll try and find it when I go back.
WT: Johnny’s done it. He’s got -
BB: When was that written? Let’s have a look
WT: Just inside is by the date its a few years ago. I don’t know if
BB: Oh here we are. April 1998.
WT: Yeah Johnny was one of the pilots that came just after when the war was more or less finished. He started just when we were just finishing the war but he became the chairman of our Association.
BB: Yes. How lovely.
WT: It’s a terrific book because it’s got -
BB: It’s a lovely book.
WT: You know you can see when everybody did everything.
BB: Yeah it was a lovely book. And it’s, it’s -
BB: It’s terrific.
BB: I have one similar for 9 squadron but not in so much detail.
WT: That, that has got every op was done and who was on it and everything else.
BB: Yes.
WT: And about all these tables.
BB: Has anybody got all these for the national -
WT: And the aircraft.
BB: We would have got these for the national archive.
WT: Oh no. No he -
BB: Logbooks.
WT: He was down there. He used to go down and, and -
BB: Yes at the archive.
WT: Yeah, he’d go down there.
BB: Oh I was down. It’s a great place to be it really is.
WT: He lived down in York way.
BB: Yeah.
WT: No he didn’t Salisbury sorry it was Salisbury ‘cause his daughter, one of his daughter is still there.
BB: Yes, That’s lovely.
WT: He used to come regularly to our dos.
BB: And you were on C flight yeah.
WT: Hmmn?
BB: C flight.
WT: No A.
BB: A flight. Ok.
WT: I was A flight. Yeah.
BB: A flight. Ok.
WT: Yeah there was -
BB: Sorry.
WT: You will see our crew there somewhere.
BB: Yes. I’m just looking for it here.
WT: Bruce Potter at the top.
BB: Potter’s crew eh.
WT: Did you not see it?
BB: Yeah hold on.
WT: He was on A flight.
BB: Potter.
WT: Almost where you had your thumb there.
BB: Potter.
WT: Is it over that side somewhere?
BB: Oh here he is. Potter. There we are.
WT: Yeah.
BB: I’ll take a note of that.
WT: His name was Bruce.
10859
BB: Well he’s got an Australian name mate.
WT: Certainly has, yes mate.
BB: Except mine’s more Scottish than Australian. In fact one of my objectives for this when I was down here my uncle who was the Australian he married my mother’s sister ‘cause I was born in Gainsborough which is Bomber Command Hemswell not too far from Hemswell.
WT: Yes, Hemswell. Yeah.
BB: And my brother was born in Newark and my, this Australian pilot was courting my mother’s sister while he was on ops but he wouldn’t marry her while he was on ops ‘cause he didn’t feel, he’d had so many young ladies coming to the mess after their husband’s had died and he wouldn’t do it. He said he would marry her when he’d finished ops but he was killed instructing and they were only married four months but my cousin was born you know shortly thereafter well you know nine months later basically and so he, he was born in the place where I was brought up by my grandmother at Coldstream in Berwickshire and the family claimed, the family claimed the body.
WT: Oh yeah.
BB: And he was brought up by train to Cornhill station and lay overnight in the family house and my grandfather had, was a commander of the local home guard having been an old soldier and he wanted to open the coffin ‘cause it lay in the front room with a flag on it and my mother was a nurse and my mother said I don’t think we should do that ‘cause he was burnt. She knew he had been burnt and so they didn’t do it. They said let’s just remember him.
WT: As we thought he was.
BB: As we was and when the guys came up from, from the RAF station he was at for the funeral his widow, my aunt, said I’d like his watch or his flying jacket please. Sorry all we’ve got is this this and which you’ll get from the committee of adjustment and they’ll send to you and all the rest but so when you go to this little Scottish cemetery you’ll see this Australian AF war grave.
WT: Right.
BB: That’s him.
WT: That’s him. Well I never.
BB: But he was only twenty one and the last time his mother saw him was when he was seventeen and a half to leave, leave Australia to come home come here.
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know.
WT: Yeah.
BB: It was just one of those awful things.
WT: What are you trying to do there?
BB: He had finished his, he had finished his, his ops and was screened and funny you know the crew all got together you know.
WT: Ah huh.
BB: And they said, ‘We’ll go on pathfinders. We’re safer on pathfinders than we are instructing.’ And that was the view and he said, ‘No, I can’t. I’ve got to, I want to get married and I’m not going to that.’ but if he had done that he probably would have been alright.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Exactly.
BB: There we go. It wasn’t to be I suppose. These things are always -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Sad.
WT: Sent to, sent to try us.
BB: They are. Well Bill thanks very much.
WT: That’s alright my friend.
BB: And I’ll be back I’m sure if I’m down this way again. It’s so lovely to talk to you.
WT: Yeah.
BB: There’s all your bits.
WT: Yeah. You’ve got, you’ve got the medals.
BB: I’ve got that picture you leant me and I’ll send that back when I get home tonight and I’ve got -
WT: You didn’t, you didn’t take the medals.
BB: No. No.
WT: No.
BB: No you’ve got them. Better check I don’t want you to, there they are in the bag
WT: That’s alright, they’re in the bag.
BB: They are in your just check please just check. No, no, no I haven’t got them. There they are
WT: I don’t know why, yeah they’re there such as they are.
BB: Well we’ll try and change that.
WT: I’m never bothered about medals.
BB: No. Well a lot of people don’t but the gran
WT: I’m not a medal man.
BB: No. A lot of people weren’t but you know there’s things like grandchildren who, who -
WT: Well. Paul -
BB: You’ve got, you’ve got your grandchildren now.
WT: My grandson.
BB: Who you would obviously like.
WT: They’re down in Salisbury at the moment I’m hoping they’re going to move a bit nearer but he’s interested but his nephew bless him is he’s only seven and a half at the moment.
BB: Yeah.
WT: But there’s a photograph of him up there. Jack. He’s very, very keen on it. Very keen.
BB: Well so he should be. It’s a great honour that you’ve done this.
WT: There’s the office.
BB: There’s the office, that’s right.
WT: These were, these were taken from the just, what is she called the one over, Just Jane over there in, we used to go down there a lot to the Panton Brothers where they’ve got the aircraft that taxies around.
BB: Yeah. Ok what have I got to do here now?
WT: [yawn] excuse me. This is all to do with the Lincolnshire arrangement that going, the spire’s gone up hasn’t it?
BB: Not yet. No, no, no, not -
WT: Oh I thought they’d already lifted it because our lot were down on oh a month and a half ago to their, to the reunion and that was the day when it was going to be delivered. They moved, had to move away because time was going on they’d only just got down the road and they saw it going back up.
BB: Right.
WT: Just coming. So they couldn’t do anything about it.
BB: No.
WT: I thought they said they put it up that night. Erected it.
BB: What? The spire?
WT: Yeah.
BB: In Lincoln?
WT: Yeah.
BB: Well to tell you the truth it might have done but I haven’t heard of it yet but -
WT: Well I thought that’s what they it had happened. They brought that in and the lorries or whatever was carrying it were going to get it upright for them to to anchor it down or whatever. I don’t know. Because they are going to build a great big wall around it aren’t t they with the name of the people who died
BB: Yes
WT: Or were killed. So [they’ll have old Giffords?] down on that one bless him. My room-mate.
BB: Oh God. There’s more bumph here.
WT: Cost you more money now.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Right so we’d better get on with the paperwork. Let me just have a look at it
WT: Oh I thought you’d done it.
BB: No I’ve just been reading it here so we’ll better get on with it. Won’t be a minute. I think I’ll just call my wife up I’m a bit worried about her. See where she is
WT: I was going to say from my bedroom you can probably see the car.
BB: So when’s your next medical people coming in. When, when do they come in, every day to see you?
WT: No. No. No Wednesday is the day when everything normally happens.
BB: Yeah.
WT: At the moment I’ve got ear trouble but I’m off for another week but on Wednesday they come in to change your leg bag and do all kinds of things so I have to watch it but I’m alright I’m off for the next week or two I’m not doing too badly.
BB: Hi Jeannie. It’s me. I’m finished with Bill. I wonder if you could come back to to look at this documentation. It might need a witness. I’m not sure. Ok I’ll call you later. Or you can give me a call now. Thanks bye.
WT: Oh you’ve left her a message have you?
BB: Yeah she’s -
WT: Oh.
BB: She’s probably walking the dog.
WT: Stay where you are I think I can see the car from here.
BB: Ok thanks.
From the bedroom.
[pause]
WT: No the trees are in the way. I said the tree is in the way.
BB: Oh its William [Headley] Thomas isn’t it?
WT: [Headley].
BB: Oh that’s worth, that’s worthy of a photograph.
WT: Oh I don’t know I was just going to show you that. They were taken more or less the same time. You see what she’s wearing?
BB: Yes.
WT: A new pair of wings.
BB: Oh that’s lovely. May I take a picture of that one?
WT: Oh, go on. You don’t want that man.
BB: Yes I do. You’re, now that, now that you’ve been interviewed my dear boy you are now part of the national archive.
WT: Don’t.
BB: You are going to be in the Bomber Command archive.
WT: Am I?
BB: Yeah, you are.
WT: I thought, I thought it was the Lincolnshire.
BB: Yeah but it’s going to the University of Lincoln.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But that’s why we’ve got to sign this other stuff.
WT: While you’re doing that it’s happened again this damned bag.
BB: Oh I’m sorry.
WT: No it’s alright ‘cause it just happens like that I have a big bag to put on the end of it at night thank God.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Bill had joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps and Air Training Corps. He volunteered as a pilot in the Royal Air Force and flew Tiger Moths at RAF Sywell but was re-mustered as a navigator. Bill went to Canada as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme, where he did bomb aiming, gunnery and navigation training. He was offered a commission and did some special training on Prince Edward Island before going to the holding unit at Moncton.
Bill returned to Scotland and converted to bomb aiming. He crewed up at RAF Castle Donington and went to RAF Sandtoft and RAF Hemswell to the Lancaster Finishing School. Bill was transferred to 166 Squadron at RAF Kirmington, flying Lancasters. They then went to RAF Scampton as 153 Squadron. Bill conducted 29 operations and one which was aborted because of engine problems. Bill then trained as an equipment officer, being sent to RAF Strubby. He then demobilised and returned to his job in local government.
The interview discusses relationships between commissioned and non-commissioned crew, Bill’s thoughts on Dresden, Bomber Command and Arthur Harris, and the awarding of medals.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AThomasWH150711
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Canada
Alberta
Ontario
Ontario--Toronto
Prince Edward Island
Québec
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Harrogate
England--Hastings
England--Lancashire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Manchester
England--Northamptonshire
England--Redruth
England--Sussex
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Wigtown
Wales--Aberystwyth
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
New York (State)
New York (State)--New York
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-11
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:19:53 audio recording
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
observer
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Bicester
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirmington
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Scampton
RAF Strubby
RAF Sywell
target photograph
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1015/11304/ALeedhamHJL181212.1.mp3
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Title
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Leedham, Bob
Herbert John Lewis Leedham
H J L Leedham
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Bob Leedham (b. 1922, 1183577, 160986 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 90 and 57 Squadrons.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-12-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Leedham, HJL
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HB: This is an interview between International Bomber Command Centre volunteer Harry Bartlett with Mr Herbert, Bob, Leedham, who lives at Ashbourne in Warwickshire. He joined the RAF in 1940, but we’ll no doubt will come to that shortly. Bob, if I can just ask you what were you doing on, in the few years before the war?
BL: My family, my father was a skilled carpenter, but on my mother’s side, she had three brothers all of which were very keen engineers and one of which was exceptionally keen and he worked for a local motor company and he was involved in motor bike racing at Donnington, mainly, and it was him that inspired me with a heavy engineering interest, and consequently when I left school, I was educated in Burton on Trent, the dear old brewing place, I finished up there, I was, won a scholarship to be educated at the main system, which was the central system and the grammar school and so on in Burton and I survived that. And on leaving I decided my real choice was to follow my uncles as it were, into the motor trade, which I did. And I was trained fairly quickly as an apprentice in the motor trade and of course when the war started most of them were already on the reserve and they were the first people to be called up. So myself and a couple of my colleagues of my age, and at that time we are talking about an age of seventeen, sixteen to seventeen, I had already passed my driving test and was driving of course and we were left to run the very large garage very quickly after all the others had been called up, and so it was hands on experience with a vengeance. We were left to run the garage and carry on operations and consequently even a relatively short time I had a good engineering background. However, when I got to seventeen and a half, all my mates that I knew and went to school with and so on had all got into the air force, they’d volunteered in some way or other. In fact some of them were actually called up and I knew that sooner or later I would be called up as soon as I got to the age of I think it was eighteen or nineteen and the chances were that I would maybe put in to the Army. Well I had no interest whatsoever of going into the Army. My first choice was always the air force. Unknown to my parents, at seventeen and a half, I went over to the Assembly Rooms in Derby to the recruiting centre and signed up to join, but I had to give my age as eighteen. They probably accepted this with tongue in cheek knowing that I’d lied a little bit about my age. However, I was accepted and instructed to come for a medical a couple of days later. Very amusing and perhaps interesting thing was, that bearing in mind I had been brought up in a relatively conservative sort of area in Burton on Trent as opposed to big cities and so on, so we were living in a relatively closed environment, despite the fact we were all qualified, and highly qualified tradesmen then. So I went over to have the medical. There was about twenty of us lined up. The doctor came in, he says, ‘right, take your shirts off boys, I’m going to check your hearts.’ So he went along, checking everyone, all the way along, and when he got to the end he says, ‘Right, put your shirts on boys,’ then waited a few minutes, said, ‘drop your trousers then.’ I thought ‘drop my trousers!’, bloody hell! I’d never been exposed to anyone in my life before, you know! And I feel that at that moment I changed from being a boy to a man. That’s the way I felt about it, I couldn’t believe, having to drop my trousers and expose myself even to a doctor. That was the sort of background we were brought up in of course, in those days. It’s totally different now of course. So really from then on the next few days I was down at Cardington for the, attestation and so forth and then I was allocated for training. So initially because of my engineering background the RAF at that time were quite short of experienced engineering people, and they’d set up training units and so on but, they were very good from a theory point of view but nothing in the way of hands on. So I was immediately shuffled into training as a fitter 2E. But I wasn’t happy that, I wanted to fly. So it didn’t last long, and I managed to wiggle my way in to ITW at Blackpool, and found myself on a pilot’s course.
HB: ITW?
BL: ITW: Initial Training Wing.
HB: Right.
BL: Which was at Blackpool in those days and that’s where they carried out the tests as to whether you were suitable to fly in an aircrew capacity. So I was accepted to fly an aircrew capacity to be decided specifically by the selection board’s requirements. And the next thing was, at that time the pilot training was being geared up dramatically. The original pilots in the air force at the start of the war and going right up to probably about the end of 1941, were pre-war pilots, mostly people who’d come from quite wealthy backgrounds who could afford to train them as pilots and by the end of 1941, these were the people that the air force had to rely on in the early days. When I look back historically on some of the situations, bombing raids and that sort of thing using obsolete aircraft like Lysanders and stuff like that, it was dreadful really and by the end of ’41 most of these boys had disappeared: they’d either been shot down, been killed, they crashed or were POWs. Result was that there was a colossal demand for fully trained new aircrew. This was done from a pilot’s point of view in Canada, or America, or Southern Rhodesia as it was then, which is now Zimbabwe, of course. Those were the three, main three areas where the pilots would train from about 1941 onwards. And they set up very, very good systems. But there was a difference between Rhodesia trained and particularly American trained. The American instructors were extremely, quite different to us: they were very hard, very dedicated and they set up a system for training pilots, that if you didn’t go solo in twelve hours, you were thrown off the course. You were downgraded to either a navigator or a bomb aimer or anyone else that had any sort of background which would be useful to the air force, in my case an engineering background. And when you consider, you know, people, ex bank managers if you like, and people from a whole variety of trades in civilian life, there they were, shipped over to America to train as pilots and expected to go solo in twelve hours. Just dreadful really. However, that was the way the system worked. It wasn’t quite so severe in Canada, but nevertheless it was similar to the American system but the ones trained in Southern Rhodesia of course, it was very much more realistic, and they didn’t stick to any specific hours to go solo and things like that you see. So the result was when finely trained aircrew of any category then came back to the UK, the usual routine was Initial Training Wing and then on to type training unit and so on and find a way into things like Wellingtons and Hampdens and Lemingtons, er Wellingtons and things like that.
HB: Can I just take you back a little bit Bob? [Cough] excuse me. When you joined up, you started your initial training as a fitter.
BL: Yup.
HB: But you then went for aircrew training.
BL: Yes.
HB: Did you go to train as a flight engineer, or did you go to train as a pilot?
BL: No, I went to train as a pilot initially.
HB: Right. And where did, which you, where did you actually go train as a pilot?
BL: I went to 32 SFTS in Carbery Manitoba, Canada.
HB: Canada, right.
BL: But I didn’t make the twelve hours solo so I was downgraded, the same as three quarters of them. There were very few, at that time anyway, who were competent enough after twelve hours to go solo. So it was a very hard path really. I came back to the UK, together with many others, who’d been diverted then in to training as a navigator or a bomb aimer or a gunner – I’d forgotten that one – and, but in my particular case the fact that I had the engineering background, which they wanted, they downgraded me to co-pilot and flight engineer. So predominantly I was trained as a full flight engineer, despite the fact I was accepted that on aircraft for instance like the Stirling I had to act as co-pilot as well. So I had to take link training and all that. I was never allowed to take off and land, but I was there to relieve the main pilot and to act as co-pilot duties. And that applied pretty well throughout: Stirlings, Lancasters, Halifaxes and so on. So we were always virtually the number two so far as the mechanical operation of the aircraft was concerned. As opposed to the gunners who had their job to do, bomb aimer had his job to do and the navigator. A number of the early bomb aimers of course were also trained as type of navigators but very few of them flew as navigators, they flew mainly as usually as bomb aimer come front gunner. There was always a front turret, gun turret on the Lancs and the Stirlings and Halifaxes, so the bomb aimers were expected to man the front turret and also act as the bomb aimer so far as the targets were concerned. And the navigators of course, they did the actual navigation guidance to the pilots.
HB: So you came back to England and you went to do your flight engineer training for aircrew.
BL: Yes. At St. Athan.
HB: At, St Athan, right. So at the end of that training, where did you sort of stand in the scheme of things?
BL: I was at training, already I’d had my link training as a co-pilot as well, before I went to St Athan, when I left St Athan, fully qualified, the next thing then was to join a crew on either Lancs, Stirlings or Halifaxes. In fact in my particular case I was posted to Stradishall which was a main training base for Stirlings and then the crew of seven were created. There was nothing directed, they put us all in hangar and between ourselves we had to get to know each other and put ourselves together as a seven man crew, which is how it happened. Once that’s established as a crew then your flight training started, which we did at Stradishall of course, on the Stirlings in our particular case.
HB: Where did your, is it all in this hangar, did somebody come to you or did you think oh I like the look of him, I’ll go with him? Or? How did it work? What were the mechanics of it?
BL: It’s a variety really. Our captain, our skipper, was an ex Birmingham policeman and personally, personality was absolutely first class, but he was a strict disciplinarian being ex-police, of course, and so he was highly respected despite the fact he was definitely one of us, but very highly respected. And we got to know him, chatting away and he said well, he says ‘I’ve just come from OTU from Wellingtons,’ he says, ‘I’ve got a navigator and I probably have a bomb aimer.’ He says, ‘I’m looking for a couple of gunners and a flight engineer co-pilot to get the seven man crew together,’ and so from then on it was a question of who you knew and whether you thought they were capable, and see whether they were already in a crew or not that was how we all created seven together. It was done quite amicably, in various reasons, various forms, whether you knew each other or you say well I know old so-and-so, he’s a bloody good navigator, try and get him on our crew, you know, and that sort of thing. So we finished up as a very tight crew and it so happened, subsequently, that when we were doing our ops on the squadron, the camaraderie within the seven man crew was very tight indeed. The result was we found that we had seven first class crew members. Everyone worked together, helped each other and that was the way it went on the Stirlings. Unfortunately the Stirlings of course had a very bad reputation subsequently. The reason for this was because in its early days, [cough] it was built pre-war of course, a long way pre-war, and was a very good four engined heavy bomber when it was produced, extremely good, but unfortunately it came under the influence of the political decisions, the politicians came along and said that aircraft’s got a wingspan of a hundred and sixteen feet! We won’t get it in to the hangars at Cardington, they’re only a hundred feet, you’ll have to take sixteen feet off the wings. So, reluctantly, they put pressure on the manufacturers and the Stirling was modified to have sixteen feet, either, eight feet either side taken off the wings. Not only that by doing that they had to alter the structure quite considerably and raise the undercarriage very high in order to cope with this. Disaster so far as performance’s concerned, the result was the Stirling was always very, very much – what shall I say - the underdog as far as the heavy bombers were concerned. Result was the highest we could ever get to bomb was about twelve thousand feet. The Lancs and the Halifaxes were up above at twenty two thousand and frequently if your time was slightly out we were bombed by their bombs from above us. Frequently happened, there was a lot of aircraft were lost that way. Just one of those things. So really, although at that stage, when you think that the Lanc didn’t come in to service till towards the end of ’42, so in the early days the Stirling was the only heavy bomber and he was restricted in its performance by this political intervention and consequently it had a reputation of being something of a, I won’t use, I want to use the words death traps, but Bomber Harris had his own ideas on this and he was fully aware of it. In fact as ‘43 went on we were doing the Ruhr bombing and then of course Hamburg and then the start of the Berlin offensive which was in the autumn of ’43, and at that stage our losses were running on average seven, eight percent, we had one occasion when our losses were seventeen [emphasis] percent. And it got to the stage where Bomber Harris, he couldn’t stand it any longer, he was at war with a lot of the politicians himself of course by his insistence that Germany had to be bombed in order to minimise their war effort, and consequently it’s on record in one of, I think it was Max Hastings’ book Bomber Command I think he mentioned it in there, the extract of a meeting that Harris had with Churchill in round about October, I think, or maybe November ’43, and he was thumping the table and he said to Churchill, he says, ‘if I send my boys out [thumping] to get lost any longer in these bloody death trips, death traps called Stirlings they’ll call me a murderer.’ He says, ‘what I want is Lancasters, Lancasters and more Lancasters.’ there was a hell of a row went on and Churchill didn’t say a word. But finally he leaned across and said you’ll have your Lancasters. And it was then that the production on Lancasters was even, set up considerably higher than what it was already.
H: So when [cough] -
BL: So really, just interrupting,
HB: No, no.
BL: so going back from our training at Stradishall as a crew were posted to 90 Squadron to a little place called Ridgewell which was in Cambridgeshire, and not terribly well known and we were the first people in. A couple of farms that had been demolished and replaced with an impromptu quickly built runway. There was no, shall we say buildings, which were you might say were suitable for an operational squadron. There was mud everywhere, conditions were foul. They put a series of nissen huts up for us to live in and also for headquarters and the conditions there were not terribly good at all. However, there we were in the spring of ’41, er ’43, expected to use that as a base to operate, operationally against the various targets which were set out. We were at Ridgewell I think for no longer than about three months, four months, something like that and we moved then to a place called, it was West Wickham when we moved there but it was renamed Wratting Common, and consequently conditions there were far better. Again, it wasn’t a wartime, it wasn’t a peacetime airfield, but it was a good airfield and conditions there were far better airfield than Ridgewell. I don’t quite know what happened to Ridgewell in the end, whether it survived or not. I shouldn’t think it did: it was foul. But nevertheless we went to Wratting Common and we continued to fly our ops from Wratting Common on 90 Squadron, until, as I say, the autumn when the squadron was destined to change from Stirlings into Lancs and consequently they were moved to just outside Mildenhall at Tuddenham.
HB: How many ops did you actually fly in Stirlings for your tour?
BL: On Stirlings alone I think we did about twenty one I think it was, on the Stirlings, before we went on Lancs. As I say during that particular time conditions using the Stirling were very difficult, to make an understatement. Our losses were constant and it was amazing really, I mean for instance there was a Canadian pilot called Geordie Young. He was the senior pilot on the squadron, he’d got a lot of experience, and they went off on their last trip, their thirtieth trip, and they got blown up over Dusseldorf on their very last trip and that was, had a very, what shall I say effect on morale on the squadron, because they were regarded you know, the top boys on the squadron. One of the problems, in those days throughout Bomber Command, not just 3 Group which was a Stirling Group, but all the other groups as well, is that when Don Bennett set up the 8 Group, Pathfinder Group, he got old Hamish Mahaddie who he took on as his recruitment boss to collect all the very best crews off the different squadrons he could get hold of, to go into Pathfinders, and of course there was a colossal amount of opposition to this from all the squadrons. No squadron commander wants to lose their best crews, and consequently there was a war going on particularly on 5 Group, with Cochrane was the AOC on 5 Group in those days, based at Swinderby and he was very, very strongly opposed to it. There was open warfare going on the whole time, and despite the fact that 5 Group at that time of course, was the elite group which contained all the 617 boys and various other specialist crews for specialist bombing trips and he obviously didn’t want to lose any of those. And consequently he managed to get some political background particularly from Arthur Harris two of the Pathfinder squadrons in 8 Group would be transferred back to 5 Group. So he eventually had his own Pathfinder boys. Of course then when Gibson set up 617, that was also again from selecting top quality experienced crews. In the early days that was, but before the Dambuster raid, but not so much later on when they were really struggling to get replacement crews from the various crews they’d lost. So really Bomber Harris, Arthur Harris, he was very much supporting the 5 Group people, it was his elite group in Bomber Command and he always gave it sort of first preference on everything. There’s one, a very amusing aspect came at a conference they were having at Swinderby when at the time Princess Margaret was having this affair with Fighter Command Townsend and there was all speculation in the press about whether she’d marry him or whether she’d marry somebody else, and so on, and at this particular meeting, this conference of crews at Swinderby, it was a bit of a hilarious topic and someone was saying, ‘well it’s unknown who she’s going to marry, but it won’t have any effect on us here in 5 Group.’ And somebody stood up and said, ‘well there’s one thing for certain, whoever she marries, it’s bound to be somebody from 5 Group!’ [Laughter]
HB: Yeah. Can I just take you back a little bit Bob.
BL: Yes of course.
HB: I just noticed in some of your notes, I know this is jumping right back, it says you [cough] were posted to Coastal Command, 86 Squadron and flew on Sunderlands.
BL: Yes. That was when I was on 86. We were, we did a detachment down to Gosport actually.
HB: Oh right.
BL: And then to St, St Athan, when the two battleships Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst were at Brest and they were trying to get up the channel to get away and consequently we went down there with 86 Squadron to carry out operations against the two battleships. But for some reason or other, some of the squadron was detached to, in Coastal Command, to a flying boat squadron, which was 10 Squadron based at Mountbatten, at Plymouth. I don’t quite know why this happened, it was only a very short time, but I was one of the people that went on the flying boats for about three months.
HB: So you were there as a co-pilot engineer?
BL: Yes, on the flying boats. And again, bearing in mind our engineering background was what they wanted more than anything because we had to get involved with the maintenance schedules and so on as well. So I only had three months, I didn’t like it at all. Flying boats was not for me, and that was the main reason I thought that there must be a better way that I enjoy so I volunteered while I was there for Bomber Command. That’s where I started into Bomber Command
HB: Right. It’s all right, I was just trying to get the sequence of events into some sort of order.
BL: That was really how the sequence went through. Of course in Bomber Command, very lucky with our crew to survive a tour on 90 Squadron.
HB: What were the operations, you know, you’re flying operations into the Ruhr in the Stirling, and you’ve very clearly explained the shortcomings of the Stirling. What was it, you know, what was, what were your experiences of those, those individual sort of operations?
BL: Well it varied actually. But the Ruhr targets at that time I can remember them vividly. Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Duisburg, Krefeldt, Essen. And Essen was the one everyone hated [emphasis] because at that time that was the home of Daimler Benz, Krups and all the munitions factories, and they had a ring right the way round Essen, three thousand anti aircraft guns and radar controlled searchlights and when you’re flying towards Essen and you looked ahead, you think, ‘Christ you’ve got to get through that to get to the target point,’ and usually at briefing when the curtain was finally pulled back - we were never told what the target was until the very last minute of course - and when the target was pulled back you see Essen area, ‘oh Christ, not Essen,’ you know. However, going from what I say, first five trips Essen, then we went on to Gelsenkirchen, Wuperthal, Mulein, Bochum, Cologne, Munchen Gladbach. Now in my history of 90 Squadron book, there’s various aspects of the work that we did, and there’s a typical battle order printed there as an example. And that was August the 26th I think it was, on Munchen Gladbach and we were on the battle order for that particular night. I think the squadron was putting up something like thirty two aircraft or something that night. There was eight hundred and fifty on the, the full main force. And at that time the procedure on ops on the squadrons was that you didn’t do, as a pilot or co-pilot or anything like that, you didn’t go out with your own crew until you’d done a familiar flight with an experienced crew as a supernumerary and it just so happens that on that battle order I had one under supervision and there was one other crew with another one under supervision. It was on the 31st of August ’43. And these two chaps, I had one of them under supervision, and another crew had the second one. Out of curiosity, in the back of the book there’s seven pages of casualties on the squadron, and when I looked for the names down, both these boys’ names were down on the casualties, one, bear in mind, was on the 22nd of September bear in mind that was just 22nd, twenty two days after we had taken them on the supervision. One of them went on the 22nd, the next night the second went on the 23rd. So they only survived twenty three days on the squadron. And that was typical, absolutely typical. We used to live in a long nissen hut, seven beds each side, two crews in there. Three times we had a new crew come in, and three times we’d wake up after an op the night before, about midday, be woken up by the military police going through the, collecting the bits and pieces, belongings of the other crew who had got the beds on opposite. Three times we had new crews come in and three times we lost them very quickly, in two cases within the first three ops, and consequently we had, as a crew, we had a reputation of being a Jonah crew and nobody would move in with us. [Laughter] But in all seriousness that was the way it happened, you know and we lost some very quickly and didn’t even get to know them. There we were, soldiering on and finally got to the stage as I say, when the Stirlings were taken out of service and deployed on other work, mainly glider towing and things like that. Then the Lancs took over as the Lancaster production of course, got higher and higher.
HB: What do you put down to, I don’t want to use the word success, your ability to have got through those twenty something operations?
BL: A lot of people would say you must have been one of the lucky ones. Yes, to a point. But we had a very good crew; highly [emphasis] dedicated crew to the individual job they had to do and it was, there were various aspects of the operation that needed high concentration and dedication to execute that. I mean our rear gunner, Eddie, he’s still alive now in New Zealand, and he had eyes like a bloody hawk; he could spot these fighters coming in and he would control the operation immediately if he saw a fighter, to the pilot at the front, saying, ‘corkscrew, corkscrew,’ and instead of flying at straight and level from a to b to a target on our particular crew, we would fly perhaps just for a minute or so, then start weaving like that, so that there was no chance of the fighters beaming on to us in, as if we’d been flying straight and level they had a much easier job of coming in to us, and under from mid or something like that, shoot us down. But by weaving like that, was one of the things which we did continually, it was uncomfortable but it was very safe. But apart from the anti aircraft of course, it certainly kept the fighters at bay from us and I mean I think three times we were attacked by fighters and three times we got away from them. Largely due to Eddie in the rear turret. Who shot one of them down actually.
HB: Did he?
BL: Yup, He opened up, he waited till he got it in his sights, and let fly and it blew up in front of him, or behind him should I say. So really that aspect of it is the thoroughness of the type of flying and the operation which was necessary, but on the other hand of course, where anti aircraft was concerned it’s a different story. We, in the Stirling we were in the middle of it, weaving through it and if you had a direct hit or a hit which say damaged the aircraft severely you could say right you were just bloody unlucky like Geordie Young on his thirtieth trip, and that sort of thing, so. The worst night of for Bomber Command for all losses was the Nuremburg flight, you may or may not have heard of this, but it was on the Nuremburg trip when the met people made a complete balls of the forecast. They were forecasting plenty of cloud so that you could fly comfortably in and out of cloud and the fighters couldn’t detect you quite so easily. But on this occasion the weather didn’t turn out as they predicted and consequently it was a full moon clear, crystal clear night and the result was that the main force – there was eight hundred and fifty aircraft on that particular target. This was in the autumn of ’44, I think it was, and that particular night we lost ninety four aircraft on that night, and when you think there were seven men in each aircraft. Work that one out. That was the worst night ever [emphasis] for Bomber Command.
HB: And your crew were on that.
BL: No. We weren’t on that.
HB: You weren’t on that one.
BL: It just so happened that we were on leave at the time so we weren’t on it. But that was, that’s the hard statistics of it.
HB: Because I was interested in the, in the thing you were saying about the Lancasters and the Halifaxes going at twenty two and you know, the Wellingtons, obviously the Wellingtons were at eighteen thousand and the poor old Stirling’s down at twelve.
BL: Yeah.
HB: I mean that must have, that must have influenced your pilot and your crew at that point, when you were on, when you were on the bigger raids.
BL: Well, yes, to a point, but you had to admit it was one of those things. I don’t think, it was only when we got to grips with the Stirling and training and so on and realised what effect the modifications had had on the performance of the aircraft. It was not easy to get off the ground with a full load on. For one thing the inertia of the engines meant that it was, always had this sort of pull to starboard, to the right, which you had to maintain correction on, and not only that but the fact that the undercarriage had been raised quite considerably, very high up. There’s a picture here will show: that was our aircraft and the one that saw us all the way through our tour, and it was so high up it that when this sort of inertia from the engines, it was very difficult to keep it straight down the runway. In fact there was numerous occasions when the aircraft just couldn’t control it with a full bomb load on and it crashed or something and numerous messy situations like that developed. But this is why as I say, I meant occasionally that when I went from Stirlings up into 5 Group, I was posted up to the elite group. How that happened was, that at that time the Lancs were coming on stream and 5 Group at Swinderby was the training base for the Lancs, but again they needed them on the squadron so rapidly that they were pushing the crews through probably too fast, not quite enough training. And the result was that a lot of the crews had been trained on the twin engined Wellingtons and stuff like that, which didn’t give them any [emphasis] experience on four engined stuff. So in the, when we finished a tour on Stirlings, it was decided then by the powers that be as it were – Harris and co – they’d put a few Stirlings up to be based at Swinderby to get, be engaged on the Lancaster training programme so that we could give them experience on another four engine aircraft which was more difficult to handle than what a Lancaster was, and consequently I was one of the eight crews that were, instructors that went up there and that’s how I got in to 5 Group, posted up there on the Stirlings. And I always remember when we got up there about 7 or 8 o’clock in the evening. So we parked the aircraft went over to the officers mess, went in the bar straight away for a drink of course, and we were standing there and there was another group of the instructors and so on and amongst them was Dave Shannon and Mickey Martin – ex 617 – and quite a number of others who’d survived and they were curious as to who we were. And finally old Dave Shannon, who was a big Australian as you probably know from 617, came across and said, ‘who are you blokes then and what are you doing here?’ ‘Oh we’ve brought some Stirlings up to give you some help in the training programmes here.’ ‘Stirlings!’ he says,’ bloody hell!’ He said, ‘have you done a tour on Stirlings?’ I said, ‘yes’. He rubbed his hand over here, says, ‘Well where are your VCs then boys?’ [Laughter] And that was their attitude towards us.
HB: Yes. That tells the tale.
BL: But there again, life’s about winners and losers isn’t it, you know. And what we had we had went out to do the best you can, and as I say, it’s sad really that our losses were consistently high.
HB: So when you’d done, you did, you know, when was you last operation that you did with the Stirling? Can you remember?
L: It was on, I think it was either Hannover or Stuttgart, it was not the Ruhr, north of the Ruhr, but that was my, our last op. We did two Berlins on the Stirling, surprisingly, and relatively quiet trips too, long trips but relatively quiet, for us anyway.
HB: What was your feeling on, you know, you’re going to do your thirtieth or your last tour on the Stirling? What was going through your mind then?
BL: I don’t really think there was any feeling about it. I mean on our crew there wasn’t any suggestion of any feeling of stress or concern or the fact that you might be, the crew expression was – you might get the chop. No, we were a very good competent crew. We operated very correctly and safely as far as we could and I think that had a, that was the predominant factor in the crew. I mean a lot of people today often say to me well what about all the stress and everything? I said well the simple answer was we couldn’t even spell the word. You know, I mean the stress wasn’t there, it was concern. Admittedly we had one occasion when our mid upper gunner, Mick, suddenly went down with something, tonsilitis or something and he couldn’t, he had to go sick and consequently they stopped him flying that night and we were doing an op that night, on, I’ve forgotten where it was now, somewhere in the Ruhr, so we had to have a mid upper gunner, spare mid upper gunner who apparently for some reason or other he’d lost the rest of his crew, he’d done no ops at all, but he was spare, so they said oh you’re joining Cawley’s crew tonight because the gunner’s gone sick so he came to us and was a dreadful situation. He was absolutely petrified of the thought of going on ops, and halfway towards, over the Dutch coast on the way to the target, he suddenly started firing off indiscriminately at what he thought were fighters but they were clouds. And of course it immediately was bloody dangerous because if fighters around they see tracer bullets going out they home in on us. And Charlie was absolutely crackers, he went mad. What the hell’s going on? Go back and have a look!’ And this bloke was sitting in his turret there, absolutely terrified and it happened again, at a very dangerous point, he suddenly started firing off. Anyway when we, we survived the op, we got back and we landed, the crew bus was there to take us back to the base for intelligence and debriefing and he never said a word, wouldn’t speak, he wouldn’t get on the bus, he walked back and of course when he was interviewed by the Station Commander he said, ‘what’s the problem?’ The medical people there saw the condition of him and the RAF had a very cruel aspect of dealing with situations like that. They immediately used to braid you, used to name you as Lack of Moral Fibre which was dreadful really. You were immediately stripped of your rank back to basic and sent off to a unit which was down at Brighton to deal with these people who were so called Lack of Moral Fibre and that went on your records throughout your, a very cruel way of looking at it really. But that happened to us on this particular flight and as I say amazing really, the bloke was just absolutely petrified. Couldn’t face up to what he was asked to do, despite the fact he’d gone through training and managed to survive to train to become a qualified gunner, but there we are. Just one of those things.
HB: What did you do when you got back from your last op?
BL: [Laughter] Well I normally drink a gin and tonic but I think I had something a bit stronger than that that night! No. we had a, all went down to the pub locally and had a nice evening and then we knew the next day we’d be posted out, we’d all be posted to different directions and it was a question then where everybody went. It just so happened that in my particular case I was posted, for a very short time, to a place called Wilfort Sludge which is on the A1, but from there of course this deal came up to send some Stirlings up to 5 Group, so I was then posted out of 3 Group into 5 Group. And previous to that I’d, before I finished my tour I’d been recommended for a commission so my commission had come through so I was, and that came through six months late, so I went straight in as a commissioned Flying Officer then and went to Swinderby then as an instructor and it was, the rest of the crew: Johnnie went up to, he was the captain, he went up to near High Ercall, which is up near, in Shropshire somewhere, near Whitchurch to start training Stirling crews up there to tow gliders in anticipation, of course, of the Arnhem offensives and so on, so he went up there on towing gliders. The two rear gunner, the two gears, er gunners, the mid upper gunner and the rear gunner, they were posted to somewhere on special duties. Where they thought they were going on rest they suddenly found they were on ops again, on the special duties, doing, dropping these Resistance guys in France and so on. Harry our wireless operator, the navigator by the way, suddenly when I went to Swinderby I found he was already there and I was sharing a room with him in the mess for a while. Unfortunately, he’s the son of a clergyman in Cornwall, highly religious, he used to spend all his time playing the organ in the local church where we were down the pub having a drink, but he had a heart attack right at the end of the war and died straight away. The bomb aimer, little Barry, little short bloke, he went on rest for a short time and then decided he’d go on a second tour, But got shot down on the third trip of his second tour, but he was lucky. He managed to bale out and he was a prisoner of war for about the last six months. But Harry, our wireless op, his previous job in life he was, worked in the Metropolitan Police, on the vice squad and he was absolutely obsessed on flying against the Germans on Bomber Command, absolutely [emphasis] obsessed. His one aim in life was successful bombing Germany and when we were tour expired and they say, sent out as instructors or rested and so on, and what they called screened as they said, screened from operations. He refused point blank he says, ‘No, I’m not going,’ he said, ‘I’m going to carry on.’ There’s a little bit of discussion with the commanding officer about it and the adjutant and so on, but anyway he got his way was posted on to a Special Duties squadron somewhere, and he carried on flying. He did seventy four ops in the end. And in the end he got shot down over Denmark I think, on one these special, highly secret operations on his seventy fourth. If you go back to Lincoln his name is on the, one of the what do they call it, the metal -
HB: The walls.
BL: The walls.
HB: wall 118.
BL: That’s what happened to all of us in the end. And as I say, the two gunners they survived, despite the fact they were amazed to find themselves on this resistance dropping and that sort of thing. So that was where we all finished up.
HB: So you ended up at Swinderby as the instructor on, you know, giving people experience on four engines.
BL: Yes. So, when I went to Swinderby I was instructing on Stirlings and Lancasters at the same time.
HB: Right. So how did you, how would you relate to the engineering side of the ground crew?
BL: Well, very closely indeed, in fact the whole crew did. I mean our ground crew was our survival in many respects and we respected them, we had a very good ground crew. They kept our aircraft serviceable against unprecedented odds at times. I mean there’s numerous occasions we’d come back with shrapnel holes down the fuselage and that sort of thing, and there was one occasion when there was, we had a near hit, this was Dusseldorf again funny enough, the intelligence people used to say well when the anti aircraft batteries are shooting at you, if you can’t hear on, if you can’t hear any noise you know you’re safe, but if you hear a bang you’ll know it’s very close. We heard this bloody great bang over Dusseldorf and that was very close and it finished up with Norm Minchin, the mid upper turret, with the perspex turret round his head, a piece of shrapnel came up and cut right through the back of the perspex and cut the back of his turret off, and he didn’t know it! Without touching him at all! It just cut through this Perspex and the back, and after we had left the target we were flying back home and he came on the intercom and said, ‘Christ it’s bloody cold up here, have you got some heating on?’ Didn’t even know it had happened! Of course when we got back to base not only that but there was a hole in the side of the aircraft you could damn near crawl through. So the maintenance people had a pretty big job, you know, to patch up all the holes on it. And that sort of thing, but the, yeah, the ground crew were very much part of the team, very important and we had a very good ground crew, very good.
HB: And when you got to Swinderby, you would, you would continue that relationship as you do in the training of the crews.
BL: Well not with the ground crew, not at Swinderby.
HB: Right.
BL: No, I mean we were, at Swinderby all we were concerned with was training the new crews coming through, and the ground crew was general ground crew, not to with, nothing to do with individual aircraft whereas on the squadron each aircraft had its own maintenance crew and its own flight crew and that was our particular aircraft which took us all the way through.
HB: Ah right, yeah.
BL: That finished up by the way, when we handed that over to another crew, actually I read historically in one of the books somewhere it was listed, I forget where the, I think it was the Bomber Command Diaries, every aircraft that was lost they gave indications where they were lost and where they were found and so on and our particular aircraft, the other crew that had it and it finished up in the Zuider Zee!
HB: Oh right.
BL: It was recovered eventually, by the Dutch people, who were, the Dutch people were doing the archive details and so on and there was actually some photographs of it being pulled out of the sea, they’re printed in the Daily Mail I think it was actually, so I couldn’t believe it when I saw this, when I saw the number on the side BF524, that was its serial number. WPNN and it was just being pulled out the water and you could just see the name, the number BF524 on the side of it. Couldn’t believe it. Recovered it and there’s a bloke, a very elderly gentleman, he’s a semi historian based at Alconbury and he’s very much a Stirling enthusiast and he’s got a workshop there full of all the bits and pieces of crashed Stirlings and so on and he works hand in glove with the, his counterparts in Holland and one of the major museums in Holland loan him parts of aircraft which he’s, he’s rebuilt a complete cockpit of a Stirling.
HB: Has he!
BL: At this. Yes, Andrew found this out and took me over there and we had a morning with him. I was intrigued and he’s got this bloody old shed there, old hangar I think it is, a small hangar, packed with all these bits and pieces of a Stirling and in the middle he’s got a cockpit he’s already built. And when we went over there he was sorting out an undercarriage and he was showing us that the Dutch archive people were loaning him stuff out of their museum which he photographed and copied and so on and sent it back to them. He said he had a very good rapport with them. Very interesting this guy. I can’t remember his name. Andrew knows it, but it was at Alconbury where he is based.
HB: Well I think, what we might do, Bob, is we might just have a break now because I’ve just gone to check the battery and we’ve now been talking for over an hour! So if we have a quick five minute break. I’m going to have to change the batteries anyway. So we’ll just stop the interview for the time being.
BL: Yeah. Okay, fine.
HB: Well we’ve had a comfort break and we’re just going to, we’ve had a battery change. So we’re just going to resume the interview -
BL: Oh these bloody things! I hate these!
HB: Just having a problem with a hearing aid battery at the moment. [Whistling]
BL: That’s better.
HB: So we should be go, on the run now. So we’re all settled now for our second part of our interview.
BL: Yes. What I was going to say was, when we were talking about the losses on the Stirlings, the turning point I think, was when it was decided, when Goebbels was boasting that the German fighters and defences were quite adequate against the RAF Bomber Command, he made statements saying that they’ll never touch Berlin or our second biggest city, Hamburg, they’re quite safe with our defences and so on, they’ll never touch them. And that was the challenge which Bomber Harris took up, and decided in conjunction with the naval people, who were very concerned because all these u-boats and subs were based at Hamburg and they were going out into the Atlantic to pick off the convoys and so on, and naval people said we’ve got to get rid of these u-boat pens at Hamburg. So Bomber Harris decided we’d obliterate Hamburg; it’s in July ’43. And at that time, as I was saying, particularly on the Stirlings, our losses were very high indeed and morale was very low and they introduced for the first time this metal foil thing called window. That was these patches of metal things which we discharged through the flare hatch at the back of the aircraft every twenty seconds I think it was, or every thirty seconds, something like that, and these packs, when they went out into the slipstream, developed into a big screen of metallic which completely killed the German radar defences and those, radar, the German defences were based, anti aircraft, were based on the radar picking up the aircraft or picking up the target with a blue, bright blue light, searchlight and once it picked you up, it then brought all the other normal searchlights into a cone and you were in the middle of it, and once you were coned like that, it was curtains it just picked you off then because they had you, and the whole secret of their success was this radar control and when we used this window for the first time it killed their radar. The result was, the first time it was used on Hamburg, it could have been used very early in 1943 but the politicians and defence people were so concerned they thought that if we use it early the Germans will follow this, copy it, and use it against us. So they were very reluctant, but it was only that when our losses got so high they had to introduce it. And our losses immediately on Hamburg dropped to one percent: fantastic! I we went to Hamburg, we did the four nights out of six: I did all four of ‘em. The fourth one was a disaster in that the first three were completely successful and I can remember it now, looking down, a whole wave of fire throughout, it just wiped this whole place out, just like that. The fourth night we went of course the met people again, they were predicting storms, but nothing like as severe as we found. The result was I think of, the storms were so bad, we were struck by lightning and St Elmo’s fire which is on the windscreen, and goes down the fuselage, all the compasses were knocked out and our radar and Gee box was knocked out. We hadn’t the faintest idea how we were, how to navigate back again and I think out of seven or eight hundred aircraft there’s only about twelve or fourteen actually reached the target. All the others had turned back because of the weather, and we were icing up very heavily and on the Stirlings the oil coolers were slung underneath the engines and you know what happens to diesel vehicles in cold weather, the fuel starts waxing and clogs up the carburettors, and the engines stop and that’s exactly what used to happen to us. These coolers which start icing in the middle, and what we call coring, and you had to keep hot air flow going through them in order to keep them serviceable. We suddenly found that we’d got two engines with, suffering from this icing and then there was chunks of ice coming off the wings, battering against the side of the fuselage like, dreadful we had to abandon short of the coast. We jettisoned our bombs into the sea and the only way we could navigate back to the UK was star navigation, and Cyril, our navigator, he was particularly good, he could take star shots with his, with his, my blinkin’ names, what my memory’s going.
HB: Sextant.
BL: Sextant, yes, with a sextant. And a combination of that and following the stars he managed to get us going back in the direction of the UK. When we finally hit the coast instead of being, coming over the coast over Essex or somewhere, we were in the north of Scotland, over the Hebrides and that’s where we came in and of course we immediately identified where we were and we were able to fly back down to, in fact we made an emergency landing ‘cause we were running a bit short of fuel, at Wattisham, in Suffolk. That was on the fourth trip, but the first three were so highly successful, we absolutely wiped the place out, and as I say the losses dropped right down to one percent because of using this window. The rise in morale then was just fantastic, you know after that. Of course sooner or later the Germans found that they could, they changed their system and they found that they could nullify this window by using different types of radar and so on, so it didn’t last, obviously, but we were able to use it for some months actually, and it was very good. We’re just having a new kitchen put in at the moment.
HB: Ah right. That explains the banging.
BL: And the other thing about the ops on the Stirling, in ’43 when our losses were so high, when you counted the number of ops you’re doing, the way it was calculated by Group headquarters, it was decided that because when they analysed the losses and how it was happening and so on, they came to a system of doing thirty ops in a tour and the total would depend entirely on the type of ops. For instance when 90 Squadron went to Tuddenham on Lancasters in the end of ’44, or half way through ’44, their main job - they did very, very little main force bombing – but ninety percent of the jobs of their work and I’ve got it all listed in my history book of 90 Squadron, was on either, was mainly on resistance work dropping resistance and equipment for low level intervention into Europe, dropping arms and equipment to the French and the Dutch resistance movements and so on, and consequently this was done individual very low level operations and the result was that the ops compared with ’43 were very easy and the losses were very low and consequently because, and the short ops as well, and because of this to count one trip as an op they had to do four trips to count as one on the tour, and consequently this system which was introduced before we finished, was that because of the severity of a lot of our ops on the Ruhr operation were so incredibly high losses and so very difficult that they allocated that some of the ops, because of their severity, would count, you had to do one op was counted as two on your tour, because of the severity of the operation and the high level of losses. So it wasn’t, it didn’t always follow that you did a straight forward thirty trips, you could have done say twenty five trips but they counted as thirty on your log book and the severity of the targets.
HB: Did you ever do mine-laying, gardening?
LB: Mining? Yes. Gardening as they called it. Yeah. We did two actually. One off Le Creusot and one other, I’ve forgotten what it was now. We did, our particular crew we only did two mining operations, those were, they were easy ones too.
HB: Yeah. So. You got to Swinderby. You’re doing the training there. How did you move forward from there? So that would be 1944.
BL: Well it was the end of, Christmas, yes Christmas time ’43 when I went to Swinderby, and most of ’44 and as I said earlier I was a fully qualified instructor on Lancs and Stirlings then and towards the end of ’44, I think it must have been round about September, October, something like that, some of the Lanc squadrons in 5 Group were having very heavy losses and the analysis of those losses, was in many cases put down to the fact that, to inexperience, training not sufficient for them, because they’d been rushed through very quickly because squadrons, with their losses, need quick replacements and so on. The result was that at East Kirkby 57 Squadron and 630 Squadron were both there at East Kirkby, and 57 particularly although they’d been engaged on very difficult targets their losses were astronomically high and a hell of a lot of them put down to pure inexperience. So myself and Dicky, we were both instructors at Swinderby, we were seconded to 57 Squadron for three months to set up a revised training unit there, which we did, to give the training, give the operational crews quite a bit more familiarisation and training and so on to try and cut these, some of these losses down. So I had that period there. And it was whilst I was at 57 and about to go back to Swinderby, ‘cause I was still on the strength at Swinderby despite the fact I’d been loaned to 57 at East Kirkby to do this training programme, 463 Squadron at Waddington, the Aussie squadron, had been suffering a few losses here and there, and the, one of the leaders of the squadron, the co-pilot and flight engineer leader there had been lost, so I was posted to 463 as his replacement and I was lucky to stay there until the end of the war.
HB: So that was back on to operations.
BL: So, yes, so I went back on to ops. Of course when I was at 463, because I was the boss of A flight, I was the leader, I didn’t have a crew, so I could only put myself on to do ops when there was a, somebody had gone sick or something you see, so I did them with any crew, and by extremely strange coincidence, I said to you about Essen earlier, my very first trip on my second tour here was a low level daylight on Essen. [Laugh] I couldn’t believe it! But I’ll tell you what, it was so bloody easy, it was so different to 1943. But, so I stayed there really, and at the end of the war as I said earlier, I went to Skellingthorpe, just outside Lincoln when Tiger Force was set up. I was posted on to Tiger Force.
HB: And Tiger Force was - ?
BL: That was the equivalent to 617 to go to Japan to do the [cough] vital targets into Japan, very similar to what 617 had been doing, because the adjacent to 617 Squadron was 9 Squadron. They were both based then at Woodhall Spa and Wing Commander Cheshire was the, was one of the commanding officers at 617 at that time, amongst others. But so when I went to 463 as I say, I was there till the end of the war then, and doing ops from there, and because I was the leader there the flight engineer leader on 463, I was posted to Skellingthorpe to join Tiger Force and I was promoted then at Tiger Force to be in charge of that particular section to go to Japan and we were half way through their training when the bomb was dropped of course and it all came to a halt then. Consequently I found myself in civil flying.
HB: Yeah. You did tell me before the interview started, you were, you were made an offer by the RAF before you -
BL: Yes, offered a, I was a substantive flight lieutenant then, and for a very short time I was an acting Squadron Leader but only for four weeks! [Laugh] Because it all ended then. But I was offered a extended seven year flying, extended flying committee, er, commission and given the choice. I didn’t know much about, well I didn’t know anything about civil flying. I didn’t even understand what BOAC meant until I got there.
HB: But you were originally offered Transport Command weren’t you.
BL: Yes.
HB: What was your view on that?
BL: But I turned that down. I turned that down flat. But there’s a very, there’s another, a very ironic twist that I’ll tell you about. So immediately because we were then seconded from the air force to BOAC we had to get civilian licences. We had to get civilian licences and then they decided what they were going to train us on, so we had to go through the basic theory and all that sort of stuff to get civilian licences and we were allocated I think it was about either fifty or a hundred block licence numbers in the very early days. Once we’d done type training on, at that time on Avros produced the very first post-war airliner called the Tudor and the first dozen Tudors were just being built and they were destined to go to BOAC to start up to date pressurised passenger aircraft. They were quite nice aircraft actually, very good. So since we’d just, we were the first people to be trained on the Tudors. So we did our training on the Tudors and when they were just about to start to take, BOAC to take delivery of the Tudors, for some reason there was a political change and instead of coming to BOAC, they went to British South [emphasis] American Airways, and at that time was run by the old 8 Group Pathfinder chief, Air Marshal Don Bennett, who was a real press on type. [Cough] Highly successful with Pathfinders of course and he was the boss at British South American. They’d previously been running some converted Lancasters into what they called Lancastrians before long distance flying in South America and so on, and they hadn’t got a particularly good record they’d lost three or four of them I think, for different reasons and so they took delivery of the Tudors. Tudor 1s these were, Mark 1s. And I did quite a bit of flying with the, on the Tudors on the South American routes, down to Bermuda, and the Caribbean and so on, and I was put in charge of training at BSA as well. And then, as things went on, we got as far as 1948 I think it was, ‘46’ 47’ ’48 I think it was, yes, ’47 ‘48. Suddenly the Berlin Airlift comes up, and from nowhere I suddenly found BSA, because of their Tudors, the air force was already in force on the Berlin Airlift using mainly Dakotas, the old C47s and they couldn’t cope with, couldn’t make it that economical to cope with the heavy loads that was necessary so they asked a lot of the civilian charter companies and so on, if they could provide crews and aircraft to come on to the Berlin airlift to increase the load factors, and British South American got one of the contracts to, with two Tudors, to go on the Berlin Airlift and I was one of them selected to go on the first one. So I found myself flying over to Wunstorf near Hannover where we were based, to fly on the Berlin Airlift these two Tudors between Wunstorf and Gatow, Berlin. And ironically, I think, when I think that three years before, when I did my last operational trip with 463, there we were still bombing and knocking hell out of ‘em; three years later, there I was at Wunstorf flying into Berlin to try and keep the so-and-so’s alive. Ironic really, they were three years the difference. Anyway, I stayed at Wunstorf for nearly a year, I think it was. I did nearly three hundred flights between Wunstorf and, there were only three of us on board.
HB: What sort of things were you taking in?
BL: Well when I first flew out there, we were taking huge packs of canned meat and stuff like spam and all that sort of stuff, corned beef, and all that, which was fairly easy to handle, in big cases and so on. And then the RAF were getting a bit uppity about what they were going to do and what they were carrying and bear in mind that the US air force was also on the operation with their C54s and Skymasters and so on, they were based at Schleswigland I think it is. I’ve got maps showing all the different air bases that we used over there but we always used Wunstorf and because we were larger aircraft, they decided that instead of carrying packs of food and so on, we suddenly found ourselves carrying coal, huge packs of coal, great big sealed bags of coal, about a hundredweight apiece. So we spent some months then, this coal at Berlin. Landing at Berlin was quite something. It was the ground force of people doing all the unloading and so on was predominantly very elderly German ladies, old grandmothers and mothers and so on, and it was sad to see them. They were dressed, whatever they could find to wear, and they used to come on board. They did all the work of loading and unloading, all the heavy work and they used to come on board to us carrying these lovely family heirlooms like Leica cameras and stuff like that to exchange. They were desperate for two things: cigarettes and coffee, and you could get anything for a couple of packs of coffee, in fact I got a lovely Leica camera in exchange for two bags of coffee at one stage. They used to come up, had it all laid out on the nav table there when they were unloading and they’d bring these heirlooms up and do deals with us. Anything we could, anything they wanted we could give it to them, you know. Children we gave cigret – we gave sweets and chocolate to the children. The children loved it. The Americans set up, at one stage, when they flew into Gatow, over the Frohnau beacon flying on to finals for landing, all the children used to sit round the lake underneath waving to the Americans going over and the Yanks were throwing out chocolate and sweets to them. At one stage they set up, got large handkerchiefs which they tied up sort of like a parachute, and tied these bags of sweets to them, were throwing them out and in dropping them out and the kids loved it. Absolutely fantastic.
HB: Amazing.
BL: But anyway, as I say, another aspect came up then, some time after been carrying the coal, which was a very dirty operation, dust and everything in the aircraft and they suddenly decided that what they wanted desperately in Berlin was medicinal, what do you call it? Two things they were short of, one was straight run gasoline and the other one was, oh dear me, some large amount of some sort of medicinal fluids. I’ve forgotten what they were now, what they were called. But these were in great big packs but the hospitals were desperate for them. So when it was decided that they’d fly the stuff in, it meant that the aircraft that were going to do this had to be modified with huge tanks in the back to carry it. And the air force said point blank they wouldn’t do it, they refused absolutely point blank to carry straight run gasoline in bloody great tanks down the back of the aircraft, they said its far too dangerous, so they refused point blank to do it. So the civilian contracts were asked to do it and we had then replaced our two Mark 1 Tudors with two Mark 5s which had been built and never been put into service but they were much larger and so our two Mark 5s were then equipped with these bloody great tanks for straight run gasoline and this medical stuff and so for the last few months we were flying that into Berlin.
BH: How did you feel about that?
BL: Oh dear me. Well it was just a bloody big laugh I thought, we thought. Bear in mind we’ve still got this enthusiasm from Bomber Command which we’d brought from the air force to the civilian and it was such a big change, you know, but to us it was more of a bloody big laugh than anything else. But anyway, we settled down to it and it was a good operation, it worked extremely well. When you are turning on to final approach into Gatow, Berlin, you came in over the lake on the outskirts of the city and the final beacon was at a place called Frohnau, Frohnau Beacon, you had to call over the beacon which was virtually the outer marker for final approach and the timing was so accurately it had to be done. The timing of aircraft over Frohnau was every twenty seconds between aircraft.
HB: Blimey.
BL: When you think there was a variety of aircraft, everything from small Bristol freighters to Dakotas and converted Lancs and Halifaxes and anything the charter people could lay their bloody hands on. They buy them for peanuts and take them out there to take part because the airlift they pay very big money and we were no exception with our Tudors and it’s an amazing operation really.
HB: So you went through the Berlin Airlift. Just one thing just I’m just quite curious about. You started off I think, on particular kinds of aircraft as a fitter.
BL: Yeah.
HB: What was, what was the system for re-training you when you went to different engines and different engine management systems?
BL: Well there were various training stations set up. I think the initial one for fitter 2Es, or 2As, that’s the difference between fitter rigger and fitter engines was at Kirkham, Lancashire and that was the number one training base, apart from Halton of course which is still there and still doing it today! And Halton of course was always the base of the so called Halton Brats as they call them. They go there as small, young apprentices and three year training straight away and they’re still doing that today. Yeah, they’re still churning out young lads from Halton.
HB: Right. So when you were working with the Stirling –
BL: Yeah.
HB: And then you go on Lancasters, obviously you’ve got Merlin engines, you’ve got Hercules engines, you’ve got all sorts, you’ve got air cooled, liquid cooled. You’ve got all these different engines.
BL: Yes.
HB: So was there an element of self training or was it all formalised?
BL: Well it was to us, to a point where we were fully trained and fully experienced with a lot of hours in on Stirlings when we went up to Swinderby, the 5 Group elite Group., but we hadn’t been trained on Lancs. So we had, it was virtually self-training on the Lancs there by virtue of working on them and flying on them and training every day. So that part of it, yes, was to a large extent I think we did, there were short courses laid on for us. I did one at Cosford for instance, and places like that, but generally speaking more than anything you were self taught, and as instructors you were expected to be experienced and knowledgeable on all the different aspects, so that was how it worked. But go back to the Berlin Airlift though, when that finished, I came back, by that time British South American, there was a lot of demands because they had a very poor safety record. We lost Star Tiger and we lost Star Ariel, both in the Caribbean. Those were Tudor 1s, from the first Tudors that we trained on. The first one was lost over the Bermuda Triangle as they call it, up at twenty thousand feet, no idea what happened to him; it just disappeared. And the second one was, had flown out of the Azores which at that time was a very difficult operation, flying over the south Atlantic from the Azores to South America and weather conditions and very poor nav and all rest of it was very prevalent round the Azores; very difficult route to operate.
HB: How many passengers did the Tudor 1 carry then?
BL: It varied, on whether, the Tudor 1s, I’ve just forgotten. I think up to about eighty or ninety passengers, something like that. The Tudor 5s were much larger but they didn’t actually go into passenger service after the Berlin Airlift. I don’t know what happened. They were scrapped I think, in the end. But anyway, as I say, because of the loss of the two Tudors and the BSA had lost quite a few Lancs so Don Bennett was criticised very heavily and finally he was forced to resign. So he was taken over by BSA who was then taken over by one of the old traditional north Atlantic BOAC captains, Gordon Storr his name, and it was Gordon Storr who I was with, on the, we were the first two Tudors at Wunstorf when the Airlift started and then shortly afterwards after Bennett had left, they decided BSA would be would up so what was left of it came back into, it came into BOAC. But that stage I was still being paid as a flight lieutenant substantive from the air force, seconded to BOAC so I was paid by BOAC who in turn seconded me to BSAA so I was paid by three companies, very interesting situation. But then of course, having come back to BOAC then, BOAC were operating Yorks and converted Halifaxes called Haltons, and, oh there was still a few Dakotas being used, but generally they were waiting for the next civil airliner which came from Handley Page called the Hermes and that was a very good aircraft. I liked the Hermes very much. Performance wise it hadn’t quite got good altitude performance as such, but it was a very easy aircraft to fly, very comfortable, it was designed specifically for the comfort of passengers and so on. And it was after then that the Comet 1 came in from De Havillands, the DH106, which was designed and built by DHs and was at least twenty years before its time. And then of course to us anyway, a huge attraction to get on the first jet aircraft into service. So in no time at all I was, I joined the Comet 1 fleet. We were flying, first of all flying down to Johannesburg and then it was extended to the Far East and out to even as far as Tokyo and Hong Kong and so on. Then of course you know the story that Xray Kilo blew up over Elba on its way between Rome and London. They were immediately grounded, no one could understand why it had, how it had happened. There was a huge inquiry and after ninety-odd modifications they decided that one of them must have been the reason so they put it back into service. And in no time at all they lost a second one which blew up over Naples Bay. That was flown by a South African crew who were on loan to BOAC. We’d also got French crews flying them, and it, so it was then decided that because two of them had blown up, they couldn’t leave them into service any longer. Unfortunately a third one went. The third one was out of Calcutta and that had just taken over from Calcutta and was flying through heavy cloud and they put that down to the fact that it flew into a cunim cloud and the stresses were so great the aircraft just broke up. So then they were grounded completely and when Farnborough rigged up the test rig there, and put a whole aircraft on this water test bed, and they found out exactly why it had happened. The general opinion from the public and in aviation generally was that the pressurisation caused the windows to blow out but that wasn’t true at all. The fault arose through bad engineering practice on the design of the hatches in the roof. The hatches which covered the radio communication, adf system and these two hatches were like that square like that. Engineering practice is that if you design something that’s a square and it’s put under pressure, you see that little crack there, where that join is -
HB: Showing me on the photograph frame.
BL: That little crack there.
HB: In the corner. [cough]
BL: If a crack occurs, it will always come from a corner, and find its way across and finally disintegrate and that’s precisely what happened to the Comet. It was bad engineering practice because if you round the corners those cracks wouldn’t occur. Simple [cough]. Again, in fairness to De Havillands, they produced some very fine fighter aircraft, put in their own engine, the Ghost 50 engine in them, Vampires and stuff like that but they had no experience ever of high altitude pressurised aircraft, and so they built them to what they considered would be strong enough and so on. But I’ve got a book upstairs which Andrew’s been reading, of the whole story, the whole official story of the enquiry and the way they found out all the reasons for it at Farnborough. The summing up at the end of it, when they said officially you know, that the initial fault was the adf hatches that disintegrated because of the bad engineering practice, how it was designed. The general feeling was that the aircraft was twenty years before its time but it simply wasn’t strong enough, because De Havillands, or anyone else for that matter, had experience enough to build them strong enough, when you think that at forty two thousand feet the pressurisation equivalent in the cabin was only eight thousand feet. That was the highest the cabin pressure was ever taken up to give passengers comfort without having to go on to oxygen. So the difference between eight thousand and forty two thousand across the structure of the aircraft was eight and a half pounds per square inch which is massive [emphasis] from the outside to the inside, and it has to be extremely strong, the sort of structure, in order to withstand these pressures. So you can imagine that it was not only not built strong enough, but of course the fault occurred on the hatches which caused it to blow up anyway. The first one that went, Xray Kilo, I had flown that on quite a number of occasions, got it in my log book in a number of places prior to it blowing up. I think previously I’d, we operated it from Tokyo to Hong Kong only the day before I think it was, before it blew up at Elba, but that aircraft had only done seventeen hundred hours. The second one that blew up over Naples had done just over two thousand hours and the one that disintegrated at Calcutta had done less than two thousand hours. They were all going at the, virtually the same time. That was another factor that the inquiry of course dug up, when they said that, Tom Butterworth I think it was, that because of lack of experience at DHs on high altitude stuff the aircraft simply wasn’t built strong enough. You’ve got to go back to Con Derry who was the chief test pilot at De Havillands a few years before when he was doing demonstrations at the Farnborough air show in a, I think it was a Vampire, he was doing very, very tight turns demonstrating and on one of those tight turns the bloody wings came off. He crashed into the crowd there and killed a few people, including himself. That was another example that under extreme stress conditions, that DHs aircraft wasn’t strong enough.
HB: Yes.
BL: So all those factors, you know. So result was that going back to the Comet days, I was involved very heavily with the whole Comet story because then it was decided that they’d have to, they’d build the new aircraft much stronger and up to date. The other thing was, by the way, that De Havillands had their own engines, the Ghost 50 which only produced five thousand pounds thrust, which was quite adequate for the fighters, but for a aircraft like the Comet 4 Ghost 50 engines, they insisted on putting their own engines in and all the experts said no, we needed Rolls Royce Merlin engines, or Avon engines they were, but they refused point blank, they said no, its our aircraft, we’ll put our own engines in and they simply weren’t strong enough. We couldn’t even do a safe level cruise at altitude, you had to do a five degree climb the whole time to get to top of descent, largely because by continuing to fly like that you’re reducing your fuel flow and consequently you had adequate fuel to start your descent. It was because of the consumption levels and the lack of real thrust on these DH engines, it was extremely [emphasis] critical on fuel, extremely [emphasis] critical. They devised this method of five degree climb. You had to fly, when you flight plan you fly backwards starting at top of descent instead of top of climb and things like that, you know. So anyway, when it was decided then they’d build the new Comet 4 much stronger and it would have Rolls Royce engines of much higher quality and it had Rolls Royce Conway engines. So, they’d, after the 1s, they built some Comet 2s, which were destined to go to the air force. But of course after the crashes they never even got airborne, never even delivered, they were just stuck there at Hatfield. So they decided that they’d have to carry out a two year test flying programme to make sure that everything that was being put into the Comet 4 had been well proved, correctly and properly using these two Mark 2s which were used as test beds. So they modified these two Mark 2s, strengthened them up and made sure they were adequate to do the work. They put the standard Conway engines on the inboards and then the new big 524 engines on the outboards which were destined to go into the new Comet 4. So they hadn’t got any crews to fly these at De Havilland, so they asked BOAC if BOAC could loan them I think it was six, was six crews to fly a two year test flying for De Havillands on these Comet 2s, 2Es as they called them. So I was one that went on to those, on to test flying. The first year we, every day we flew non-stop to Beirut from London and back, every day for a year. The aircraft hadn’t got a certificate of airworthiness, of course it was experimental, so there was only three of us allowed on board, no one, none of the boffins were allowed on so they got all the, all the usual test equipment and everything was loaded all the way down the fuselage and it was all fed up to the cockpit where we were and we used to have, they used to give us a list of things we had to check and write the results down, the results of this stuff as we flew, and we had to fly at thirty two thousand feet and record all this stuff for them which was really interesting. I loved it actually. It was a bloody good programme and extremely well paid as well! [Laugh]
HB: Right!
BL: So the first year we did London Beirut every day and the second year they decided we’d have to do the Arctic North Atlantic trials to make sure it was adequate for very low temperature conditions so then we started a programme going from London to Keflavik in Iceland and then across to Goose Bay and Gander in to the Maritimes and then back to London. So we did that for six months. That was a very interesting programme, I liked that part of it particularly. And then of course decided to try and get permission to fly into America. So the Americans were very keen on noise abatement and the Comet did make quite a bit of noise on take off of course, and so they said yes you can fly in to America but not land there, and not do take offs and landings. So then we had a period where we were flying out to different places around America using the new VOR navigation systems and so on, and then eventually politically we got permission to do landings over there and it was at that time then when a lot of the American airlines were looking very enviously at the jet Comet to replace traditional old fashioned piston engine aircraft and we did a series, we were doing a series of demonstration flights when, at the time when Pan American, the number one American outfit had just received, they’d just taken delivery of the first of the civilian Boeing 707s and they were pushing out a lot of typical American bullshit that they were going to be the very first pure jet passenger flight on the Atlantic, transatlantic ‘Fly American. Fly pure jet’, and all that, you know. Anyway, at the time we were down in Detroit doing some demonstration flights for United Airlines, they wanted to buy some of these Comets, so we were doing demonstration flights there. And it was there when we suddenly got a call to fly back to New York and, for some reason, and we found we got to New York we were going to do the first transatlantic flight the next day. We beat the Yanks by sixteen days! And when the Yanks had put all this, all the usual stuff in the papers, and they got the big banners out: ‘Fly Pan American the first jet flight across the Atlantic’ and so on. And after we beat them like that they had to change it all and where it said, ‘we are the first,’ they had to put in: ‘we are one of the first.’ They never bloody forgave us for it! Amazing story! [Laughter]
HB: Oh dear.
BL: But anyway, as I say I was very, very strongly involved in -
HB: How many people were on -
BL: - the whole Comet programme from start to finish.
HB: How many people were on that first trans-atlantic flight?
BL: I think we had about sixty, sixty passengers, something like that, yes. You’ve seen the menu of course.
HB: Yes, yes. Got a copy of the menu there [cough]
BL: We got back to London and it was a very historic occasion. They gave us immediate take off at New York and cleared all the flights from London to give us number one priority to land. BBC and everyone were all were there in force to welcome us, and it was headed by Eamon Andrews on BBC.
HB: Oh right. Yes.
BL: They got our wives there and so on waiting. There was two aircraft actually. We did the eastbound New York London and the other one went the other way, London New York and we crossed over at about twenty degrees west I think it was and acknowledged each other, but you know, two of them, one going one the other. And when we went through all the procedure at London old Eamon Andrews said, ‘We’ve got a coach here for you, we’re taking you up to,’ um to, I’ve forgot where the studios were now, I’ll think of it in a minute, ’taking you up to, see we want to put you on TV tonight.’ They’d decided to put us on that programme ‘What’s My Line?’ And old, the panel at that time dear old, oh my bloody memory’s going, bloke who was extremely well known on the BBC, was the chairman of the panel there. Anyway we went on TV and on this programme and all that sort of publicity and so on; it was really interesting. And then of course the following year I was picked to go to, one of the flight crew to go to Ottawa, Canada to pick up Duke of Edinburgh, Philip. We went in the Comet; he was very keen to fly in the Comet, so we went there to pick him up. He’d been there doing a series of talks and so on. The Queen was at Balmoral at the time so we were to pick him up at Ottawa and fly him back to Leuchars in Scotland, which is quite close to Balmoral, drop him off there. But anyway, we picked him up at Ottawa and we were just, hadn’t been airborne very long when a signal came through to say there’d, a big mining disaster had just occurred at Monckton in the Maritimes and would we divert to Monckton and so the Duke could just put in a quick royal visit, two hours royal visit to the disaster area. So we dropped him off at Monckton and then we flew down, further down to Gander and we waited at Gander for him to come, come back and then we brought him from Gander and flew him to Leuchars, dropped him off there. Oh it’s here somewhere I’ve got a picture of it. On board on the way back he was fascinated with the Comet 1, he loved to fly in the Comet, oh the Comet 4 I should say and on the way back he got a lot of individual special pictures of himself and he signed one each for us, and a handshake.
HB: Oh lovely.
BL: I thought she’d got it up here, it’s been on the wall here somewhere. She must have put it away. But it’s personally signed: Philip.
HB: Oh lovely.
BL: Which is, very has, carried a lot of weight, in the years to come. It’ll be worth a few bob I should think!
HB: So when did you actually stop flying Bob?
BL: Well, from then on, after the Comet programme, first BOAC decided to buy the Boeings so they ordered these new Boeing 707s from Boeing of course, from America and in January 1960 the first delivery of, or first Boeing 707 was ready for us to collect. And there was nobody trained on it or anything at that time of course, since we hadn’t got any Boeings. But in America the military version of the Boeing was the KC135 and they’d already built eight hundred of those, they’d all gone to the American air force and the American navy and so on. So having had that number built, all the bugs and problems had all been ironed out, needless to say, unlike so many of our aircraft you see. So it was a well [emphasis] tried and well proven aircraft before it even went into service. So in January ’60 I was, one of the, I was, been an instructor on Comets for some time I’d always been instructing quite a lot and so there’s four instructors, myself and three others were sent out to Seattle to get trained on the 707 and the first Boeing 707 to come off was number hundred and eleven off the line, the production line, so we were still quite a way behind other airlines. Anyway, when we got to Seattle we were trained by the Seattle test flight crew. At that time there’s no civilian aircraft, aerodromes rather, in the UK that could take the 707 except Heathrow and obviously you couldn’t use Heathrow for training but they could use it for service, not for training. Shannon hadn’t got a long enough runway at that time anyway, but they were building a new one. So there was nowhere in the UK where they could train us. So Boeings decided, got permission to use Tucson, Arizona. So Tex Johnson was there, er Tex, not Johnson, Tex Gannard, Tex Gannard was the Boeing Chief Test Pilot at that time and he decided that we’d, he’d take us down to Tucson and we’d set up a training base there and he would train us as instructors and so on, to stay on at Tucson to train the BOAC crews as they were sent out from the UK. So we stayed there to run the training unit [cough] and the crews had come from London, we trained them and they went back and then flew the aircraft in service. So we had a very nice six months so, Tucson and the trainer, super that was. But hard work. I’ll tell you what impressed me more than anything else when I went to Seattle, to Boeings: the difference between the British way of life in [coughing] workload, dedication and that sort of thing in the British aviation industry, was so different to that of the Americans. Soon found the Americans are far ahead of us in their dedication to the work they were doing. It was a bloody eye-opener, believe me. Hard work, but they knew how to do it and it was an absolute revelation to us. For instance when we were doing flight training unit details at London they’re usually about two and a half to three hours at the most, something like that, and then the time we went to Tucson the thing that surprised us was that the minimum flights times were five hours! [emphasis] Bloody long details, oh Christ, but that was typical of the Americans and the hard work they put in. They had three of the test pilots at Tucson with us and a fleet to train us and certify us as being fully trained instructors on Boeing aircraft. And I’ve got a certificate to say that.
HB: Yes. That’s grand.
BL: And anyway, BOAC then got a bit hot under the collar about the cost of running Tucson and all the British bases, so they got permission to use St Mawgan at St Athan, at Newquay. They got permission from the aircraft, from the air force for us to move from Tucson to Newquay and used St Mawgan for training from then on so I then moved, as I say, from Tucson to the Bristol Hotel in Newquay. And being a typical seaside resort, very popular, they didn’t want any weekend flying Saturdays and Sundays, there’s all sorts of objections from the local authority and so on, so it was a bit of a doddle down there.
HB: Good grief!
BL: So it was on the 707 where eventually that was my last flying for BOAC.
HB: I see. There’s a good few years in the air there Bob!
BL: Forty years.
HB: Can I just –
BL: The reason I retired in the end by the way, I was very close to retiring at that time, but I was on training at Shannon at the time on the Boeing fleet. We were doing our winter training at Shannon and one of the details we had to do was to demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft at high, high speed characteristics of the 707. The normal cruising in the 707 was point eight one mach, but the “never exceed” was about point eight eight, which you should never exceed on a Boeing and we used to have to demonstrate though as you got somewhere near the point eight eight the flight control characteristics changed aerodynamically and you had to be aware of this to happen should you ever stray up there in flight. So we had to demonstrate this and we used to fly at forty odd thousand feet from Shannon across to five degree west in the Atlantic then back again doing these high speed runs and I was doing one of those with two students and we suddenly hit a bloody air pocket – bang! It threw us up in the air and down again, hit it really hard, couldn’t, didn’t even realise it was there just clear air turbulence, and I got thrown up on the ceiling and when I dropped down I dropped right across the arm of the co-pilot’s seat with my hip like that and it buggered up something in my hip and I couldn’t even walk off the aircraft carrying my briefcase. So I had to go sick straight away. I went through all the usual palavers of different Harley Street specialists and lord knows what and all they could tell you, ‘oh you’ve slipped a disc in your back,’ you know and all this. They threatened to send me off for a laminectomy operation, but the BOAC doctor at Heathrow who looked after the flight crews, he was ex-RAF and he was bloody good doctor, Doc civil and liked gossip here with the boys, and he really looked after us, one of us, you know.
HB: Very much so yes.
BL: He says, when finally I got to the end of my tether, I couldn’t clear this up, the bloody pain was there, could virtually, almost couldn’t walk and he says, ‘I tell you what,’ he said, ‘I’ll pull a few strings for you,’ he said, ‘you’re an ex RAF officer’ he says, ‘I’ll get you in to Hedley Court.’ So a couple of days later he says, ‘I’ve managed it, you’re going off to Hedley Court they’ll sort you out there.’ So I went off to Hedley Court which of course is very famous today because all these guys from Afghanistan are going in there for amputainees and that sort of thing you know, so I went into Hedley for three months. Within three days of being there they found out exactly what was wrong with me. What I’d done when I fell down like that over this arm, I’d stretched what they call the sacroiliac joint in my hip, it’d stretched it and bent it and that was the cause of all of the trouble.
HB: Good grief!
BL: And they found that after three days there! All these bloody Harley Street specialists I went to see kept telling me all I’d got was a bloody slipped disc. But the outcome was that I spent three months there and they cured it ninety nine percent. And when I finally got to, they wanted to discharge me I went to see the old Group Captain medical and he says, ‘Well,’ he says, ‘we’ve cleared it up for you,’ he says, ‘you’ll be all right,’ he says, ‘there might be the odd occasions when you get a recurrence but the only thing is,’ he says, ‘I’ll have to put a four hour restriction on your licence,’ and of course BOAC wouldn’t accept that because I was on a world wide contract so they said no we can’t accept that but you’re very close to retirement we’ll give you an immediate retirement on pension. So that’s really how I finished. But it didn’t end there.
HB: Oh right.
BL: Another little facet came. I’d been very interested in act, different aircraft accidents and accident investigation. I was on the accident committee for a few years before that, while I was still flying and somebody at BOAC obviously realised that I’d got experience on them and they said well we’ll keep you on but not in a flying capacity, would you like to become a CAA FIA flight accident investigator. I said yes, so they said right. So they sent me off to the University of Southern California, in Los Angeles, to do the full official FIA accident inspector’s course so I had a couple of months over there, and did the course in the university and I qualified, graduated and got my little badge and everything, as an official accident investigator. So I came back to London and I went on two of the accidents actually, one of which was a Boeing which landed with a wing on fire at Heathrow after one of the engines had dropped off into the Staines reservoir. I’ve got a photograph of that landing, with the wing on fire, amongst this lot here somewhere.
HB: Good grief. Yeah.
BL: And anyway after that I found it was a bit boring and of course by that time I’d got a farm in Surrey and I’d got, we were milking a hundred and twenty five Jersey cows, and I’d got thirty thousand chickens, got five vans on the road delivering fresh eggs and cream around London and it was taking up so much time I thought well I haven’t got bloody time to go in so I finally decided I’d quit completely and carry on farming and that really was the end of it.
HB: Yeah, it does bring it to an end, doesn’t it really.
BL: So, quite a lot of various incidents in my career.
HB: Just a few, just a few. Just going back, I meant to actually ask you this ages ago. When you were on 463 Squadron -
BL: Yes.
HB: With the old, the Australians, that would be towards the end of ’45. Did you ever, when you were there on operations did you ever come across the German jet fighters?
BL: Er, no. Not, not the jets, no.
HB: No. All right.
BL: Incidentally, talking about that, of course, when Peenemunde came up, it just so happened, we didn’t, on the Stirlings by the way, the Stirlings from the squadron, I think we put about a dozen Stirlings up on the Peenemunde operation and we’d been briefed from weeks and weeks and weeks that something very special was coming up, no one knew what it was except it was something very special operation but it was tied in very closely to the right weather. It had to be absolutely perfect on weather forecast and of course it turned out it was Peenemunde. And it just so happened that when the Peenemunde trip came up we were on two weeks’ leave. So we missed it.
HB: Yeah. Right.
BL: But it was from then on of course we were very active on bombing these flying bomb sites in France and various parts of Europe. But we never came across any of the jet fighters at all. No definitely not.
HB: Right. Well I think. I think Bob, we’ve come to a natural sort of end, and I just thank you very much. Absolutely fascinating.
BL: Well I hope I haven’t bored you too much.
HB: Oh no! Well I haven’t gone to sleep! [Laughter] No absolutely fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
BL: I’ve been lucky really in a sense, that you know, had all these different variants, military and civilian, I’ve very lucky to be on you know, these special products, projects. Rather like the as I said, the two years I was test flying with De Havilland, that was really interesting.
HB: Yeah. I’m going to, one of the things I forgot to do at the beginning, I didn’t actually say at the beginning: it’s Wednesday the 12th of December 2018. I forgot about that at the beginning, I got a bit excited! So I’m going to terminate the interview Bob and get on with the paperwork. Thank you very much again.
BL: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bob Leedham
Creator
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Harry Bartlett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-12-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALeedhamHJL181212, PLeedhamHJL1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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02:16:46 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Leedham was a flight engineer who carried out twenty-one operations on Stirlings. At the outbreak of war Bob was an apprentice motor mechanic, and along with other apprentices, was left to operate the garage when all the engineers were called up. In 1940 he enlisted in the RAF and following initial training, Bob was selected for pilot training but did not achieve the requirement of flying solo within twelve hours. His engineering background meant he was posted to RAF St Athan and trained as a flight engineer. A posting to RAF Stradishall followed, and conversion to Stirling aircraft. Now part of a crew and posted to 90 Squadron at RAF Ridgewell, operational flying commenced. Bob suggests political interference restricted the performance of the aircraft resulting in a higher casualty rate amongst Stirling crews, and explains how the introduction of Window anti-radar equipment improved this. In Spring 1943 the squadron moved to RAF Wratting Common and in Autumn, converted to Lancasters. With more Lancasters coming into service, there was a lack of experience on four-engined aircraft, and some Stirling’s were deployed to RAF Swinderby for crew training. This move coincided with Bob obtaining his commission and he became an instructor on both Stirling and Lancasters. Late in 1944, Bob was back flying operations with 463 Squadron at RAF Waddington, where he was senior co-pilot/flight engineer. Following peace declaration in Europe, Bob joined Tiger Force in preparation for moving to Japan, but the war ended before this materialised. Bob began a post-war career in civil aviation, initially operating the Avro Tudor, and flying approximately three-hundred operations during the Berlin airlift. He also gives an account of the development of the DH 106 Comet and details the faults which resulted in the aircraft being grounded. While undertaking demonstrations in America, Bob was recalled to New York, where his crew discovered they were to operate the first civilian jet flight eastbound across the Atlantic. In 1960, Bob was one of four certified to instruct on the new generation of aircraft, the Boeing 707. An injury sustained from clear-air turbulence curtailed Bob’s flying career, and he progressed into the investigation of aircraft accidents.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Anne-Marie Watson
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Azores
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
United States
Zimbabwe
Arizona--Tucson
England--Burton upon Trent
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Essex
England--Hampshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Peenemünde
India--Kolkata
Italy--Elba
Mediterranean Sea--Bay of Naples
New Brunswick--Moncton
Ontario--Ottawa
Scotland--Leuchars
Wales--Glamorgan
Washington (State)--Seattle
England--Cornwall (County)
Arizona
Ontario
New Brunswick
India
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Staffordshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1944
10 Squadron
463 Squadron
5 Group
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
86 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
C-47
flight engineer
Gneisenau
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Pathfinders
pilot
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021)
radar
RAF Alconbury
RAF Halton
RAF Ridgewell
RAF St Athan
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Stradishall
RAF Swinderby
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodhall Spa
RAF Wratting Common
Scharnhorst
Stirling
Sunderland
Tiger force
training
Window
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1072/11530/APetersC150428.1.mp3
4b4db26db9a98983d38ba4614e6d0b76
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Title
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Peters, Cyril
Cyril Ebenezer Peters
C E Peters
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Cyril Peters DFC (1331907 Royal Air Force). He served as a flying instructor at the Advanced Flying Training School, RAF South Cerney and flew operations as a pilot with 77 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-04-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Peters, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MJ: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre with —
CP: Flight lieutenant.
MJ: Flight Lieutenant Cyril Peters DFC.
CP: Air Force at Cambridge in 1940 when I was nineteen. I was attested, sworn in and given a number 1331907 and sent to Uxbridge for three days assessment training. At the end of my three days at Uxbridge I was informed that I was accepted as U/T aircrew and should wear a white flash in my forage cap. Initial training was done at Scarborough at Number 10 Initial Training Wing, living in the Grand Hotel which the RAF had requisitioned. Fifty two of us on the course for two months. At Scarborough we battled with navigation, instruments, air frames, engines, Morse code — sending and receiving eight or nine words per minute. Guns. I learned to take a machine gun apart to bits and put it back together again. Never ever fired on in anger but I could take one to bits. Air Force law. You name it we studied it as well as running up and down the hills at Scarborough with a full pack and rifle. Ostensibly to instil discipline into us. At the end of the course we were on parade outside the Grand Hotel in three ranks with our kit bags when were marched around to stores. We broke off in single file and walked to the stores and inside we were each given some extra kit which we stuffed in the top of our kit bags and kept our mouths shut. We had long since learned that if you opened your mouth to ask the simplest and most sensible of questions it was deemed you were challenging authority. You were charged with the offence and you would either get seven or fourteen days jankers. So we kept our mouth shut. We were trained from Scarborough.
[Telephone ringing.]
CP: Excuse me.
[Recording paused]
CP: We were trained from Scarborough and after a brief stop in Manchester we arrived at Gourock where we boarded the French liner the Louis Pasteur. In the very early ‘30s the Louis Pasteur had held the Blue Ribband for the fastest crossing of the Atlantic. She was a twenty five knot liner but how many hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of U/T aircrew were on the Louis Pasteur I wouldn’t like to hazard a guess. There were thousands on board. She was bursting at the seams. We steamed off into the North Sea with a cruiser ahead, a destroyer either side as escort and we belted across the North Sea like a dose of salts. In a matter of two and a half, three days we were berthed in Halifax, Nova Scotia, had been trained down to Toronto and after two weeks in Toronto were informed our flying training was to be done in America. In Arizona. At number 4 British Flying Training School. BFTS. A flight sergeant was put in charge and we were put on the train at Toronto for Chicago. When we reached Port Huron which, I think was the last station on the Canadian side the flight sergeant shouted out, ‘Get your civvies out and put them on and put your cap badge in your lapel so I shall know who you,’ so and so’s, ‘are.’ Being a flight sergeant in ‘41 I can assure you he wasn’t interested in so and so’s. His language was far more colourful. So I opened my kit bag and there on the top were civvies which we took out and put on and we put our cap badge in our lapel as chiefy had told us so knew who we so and so’s were. We had to enter America as civilians. The American government weren’t sticking their necks out by entertaining foreign troops in their country at all. We were civilians. When we arrived in Chicago, at the terminal in Chicago from Toronto the [pause] Chicago is like London. Once you go into one terminal and you need to go out in another direction you had to change terminals. The taxis that had been employed to transport us to the other terminal drove on the platform, up to within a foot of the carriage in which we were travelling. And I reckon, with luck I stepped one foot on the platform and with my kitbag I was in the taxi. And lined up in two rows just outside the taxis, the whole length of the platform, motorcycle police wheel to wheel. And as soon as we were all on board the taxis we drove through Chicago with a police escort either side. And when we reached the other terminal the same applied. The taxis drove on the platform to within a yard of the carriage in which we were to travel and again I reckon, with luck, I stepped one foot on the platform with my kit bag — I was in the carriage. And lined up, in two rows just outside of the taxis, the whole length of the platform, motorcycle police wheel to wheel. And as soon as we were all on board the train moved off. Very slickly organised. The train journey across America was three or four days. The train stopped every night at 6 o’clock for thirty minutes so we got out and wandered around. One of the drivers blew his hooter at twenty five past so you ran like a stag and made the train to clamber on because when he started at half past six you knew he wouldn’t stop until the next night at 6 o’clock. You had to be on board. We got off in Arizona at a town called Mesa. Mesa is situated about fifty miles due south of the capital, Phoenix and we were bussed ten to twelve miles out into the desert to 4 BFTS. We were classified as Number 4 course at 4 BFTS. Numbers 1, 2 and 3 had done their previous six, twelve and eighteen week training under the American Air Force at Thunderbird Field and they came in to 4 BFTS just before we arrived. When we arrived there was a hut for the sheriff, for his rifle and twin revolvers. There were four corner accommodation blocks over an area of desert. No paths. No tarmac. No nothing. Anywhere. There was a mess hut because they’d got to feed us and a control tower. That was it. Twelve rows of aeroplanes. Four rows of Harvards — the 86s, the advanced trainer. Four rows of Vultee — the intermediate trainer. And four rows of Stearmans — the primary trainer. And that’s it. This 4 BFTS was a private venture by Southwest Airways Incorporated. And boy oh boy did they ever get their fingers out. In a matter of three or four weeks the area inside the four corner accommodation blocks was grass. On it had been built a cadet lounge with easy chairs and magazines from England which we could enjoy if we had time from our studies. All the paths were laid. A parade ground had been put down. One hangar was completely built and the second was half way up. Considering that was a private venture they really got their fingers out. We started flying September 1941. Fifty two of us. On March the 13th 1942 — thirty two of us. Twenty had been scrubbed for lack of aptitude. We were on parade outside our accommodation block in three ranks. We were marched around to stores. We broke off in single file and walked to stores and inside we were each given a handful of sergeant’s stripes, a pair of wings, made to sign for them and told to bog off and sew them on. A most intriguing and surprising Wings Parade. And the next day we left Mesa for Chicago, Canada and home. Pearl Harbour had occurred early December ’41. From this time America were in an emergency and we were allowed to wear uniform the whole time. In camp, out of camp, anytime. So we were coming back to Chicago in uniform. And boy oh boy what a difference that kick up the backside had made to the Chicagoans. A more friendly, likeable, pleasurable people it would have been difficult to meet. Had I accepted all the two hundred packets of Camels and Lucky Strikes I’d been offered I should have needed a trailer to have towed them in. Very generous. Very warm. Very friendly. We enjoyed, we walked, we enjoyed our walk through to the other terminal. We were, we left Chicago and we were trained in to Canada. To Moncton. And at Moncton we boarded the steamship Banfora. SS Banfora. A pre-war cattle ship. And I say this quite simply because a contingent of the Canadian army marched on the Banfora to come with us to the UK and join their compatriots and with fifteen minutes they walked off. You could stuff it. They certainly weren’t going to travel on such rubbish accommodation, not on your nelly. It didn’t matter to the powers that be. They merely filled it with aircrew. They knew we daren’t mutiny. If we did we would either be shot or clapped in jail. And so we came home in convoy, on the Banfora, a pre-war cattle ship. The American instructors had recommended me for single engine day fighters. Spits and Hurris which is what I wanted. When I got back to the UK the lords at the Air Ministry decided my single engine aeroplanes should be a Tiger Moth and a Magister. I was sent to Number 6 Flying Instructor’s School operating at Scone near Perth in Scotland and within two months I was a qualified flying instructor to teach basic exercises to solo standard. Not to wing standard. Just to solo standard. So we taught straight and level flying, medium turns left and right, gliding turns left and right, climbing turns left and right, take offs and landings and taxiing control on the ground. That was all. And I had eight students. Four in the morning. Four in the afternoon. And detailed to fly five hours every day. The locals at Scone had convinced us that the only way to enjoy their honey was to drink it neat and chase it with a half pint of beer, a whisky beer chaser. And I could buy a whisky beer chaser in Scone mess for eight old pence. That’s just over tuppence in modern parlance. And I was sure, when it came time to my posting from the flying school there was nowhere in England where I could buy a whisky beer chaser for eight old pence so I elected to stay at Scone. I did my first year or so at Scone. It was July the 13th ’43 when I received the King’s pleasure — was appointed to a King’s Commission and posted to 11 EFTS – to 9 EFTS operating at Ansty near Coventry. I arrived at Ansty, reported to my boss, the wing commander flying. He didn’t want me at Ansty. His four flights were full but his two flights at his satellite at Southam needed instructors so I was sent to Southam. I got to Southam and I reported to the CO. The flight lieutenant. He said to me, ‘Here at Southam we’ve got twenty Tiger Moths. Bowsers to feed them. If you want a bed tonight to lay your head on you’d better get in to Southam and find one. If not – hard luck.’ So I pulled into Southam and I got digs with an elderly widow, Mrs Paxton who had living with her her nephew Ted. Ted was a very highly skilled motor mechanic who for years had been servicing all the police vehicles in the area and the police were determined not to lose him. So they made him a war reserve copper which kept him there all the war to do their servicing. To get from Ansty, from Southam dead across country to the village where I was born, Gamlingay which was between Biggleswade and St Neots on the A1, a little bit east of that, if it was a short leave I barely got to Gamlingay in time to turn around and come back. And I said to Ted, ‘I’d better buy myself a vehicle.’ So he said, ‘Well if you go along to the local garage they’ve got two.’ So I went along and they had a 1929 Austin 7 with a part fabric body, reconditioned engine – ten pounds. They had a 1931 Austin 7 with a non-reconditioned engine – five pounds. I knew that my, that the fuel on my vehicle would have would always be at least fifty percent paraffin so I opted for the non-reconditioned engine. Five pounds. Registration number HX 4819. She smoked well but by God she went well. I kept her and a year later when I’d been posted to Yorkshire I sold her for a tenner. So she did me proud did old HX 4819. The Rolls Royce works at Ansty had been completing the building of the Mosquito aircraft before flight testing them and delivering them to squadrons for operational use. And it was quite obvious in very early spring of ’44 that Mosquitoes were far more urgently required than pilots because snap you fingers over night the EFTS was shut down. There wasn’t a Tiger Moth in the vicinity and twenty of us pilots had been posted to an Advanced Flying Unit at South Cerney near Cirencester in Gloucester flying the twin-engined Airspeed Oxford for eighty hours. So we got out but on the bomber trail not the fighter. After AFU the next stage was OTU. Kinloss, the satellite at Forres. Forres, the satellite of Kinloss had just emptied its crews out to the next stage of training so a whole batch of us were posted in to fill it up again. Here we were to fly the Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, the old flying coffin. Flat out, nose down, one twenty indicated if you were lucky. A pre-war bomber. Ye Gods. The second day at Forres we were detailed to report to a large briefing room. Inside were every aircrew trade. Pilots, navs, bombs, wops, gunners. No engineers. We didn’t need engineers on the Whitley. And here we crewed up and I started picking my crew. I saw a pilot officer bomb aimer, six foot three, built like a tank. And I thought Ye Gods what a great asset he’d be if later on you were at a local pub and got in a fix. So I went over to him and I said, ‘You’ve got yourself a skipper. I’m Pete.’ He said, ‘I’m Cliff. Cliff Lamb. And I know a navigator.’ I said, ‘Dig him out.’ So we dived in the motley throng and he dug out a five foot, a pilot officer navigator. Five foot nothing. Slim as a bean pole. Pilot Officer J E E Viella. John Viella. Black hair, black eyes. I said, ‘Ok John. You’ve got yourself a skipper. I’m Pete. What cooks?’ ‘Father ran from Mussolini in the early ‘30s to London. I’ve done all my schooling in London. I’m in my second year of accountancy and I’ve joined the air force. How long have you been flying?’ Which rather took me aback. I said, ‘Since 1941.’ ‘How many hours have you done?’ ‘I don’t know. Twelve, thirteen hundred.’ ‘Well we’d better get ourselves a couple of gunners and a W/op.’ He thought I’d just transferred trades and I would have what anyone normally through the trade would be. About two hundred and fifty hours. I’d been kicking around a bit longer. The three of us saw a gunner on his own by the side of the room holding a bottle and we three agreed anybody holding a bottle, irrespective of what was in it, was recommending himself. So we went over to him and said, ‘You’ve got yourself a crew. I’m Pete. The skipper.’ He said ‘I’m Sergeant GWC Jack from Grantown on Spey. I’m nineteen and I’m a rear gunner.’ We said, ‘Smashing job, you’re in.’ He said, ‘I know a mid-upper and a W/op.’ We said, ‘Go and dig him out.’ So he went and dug out Sergeant Haines, a mid-upper. Sergeant Will the W/op. We had a full crew. Our work on the Whitley was eighty hours. Usually in six, roughly six hour cross country’s day or night. On each cross country there’d be some bombing practice for the bomb aimer and some gunnery practice for the gunners. We had trouble with our wireless op. On every trip after an hour, after two hours he pronounced his radio unserviceable. Took it to bits and spread all the bits over [coughs] sorry.
[recording paused]
CP: And he took his radio to bits and spread it over the floor of the Whitley which meant that from that time the navigator never ever received any help from the radio for his navigation. Thank the lord he was an ace. Give John a minute with his sextant on the sun, moon, any star. He knew all the constellations. Betelgeuse. Cassiopeia. I got an exact fix. Never ever on any operation day or night was I ever off course. Which is why I’m alive today and talking to you in my nineties. He was brilliant without a shadow of a doubt. This culminated in the last trip. We’d landed. We were in dispersal doing our rundown checks and switching off. And I called to Will, ‘Get your things together, pack your bags and bog off. You’re out.’ And his great chum, the mid-upper, Haines said, ‘I’ll go with him.’ Now, when you get rid of two bits of dead wood from your crew at the drop of a hat there’s only one reason. Old Lady Luck is firmly on your shoulders, and she’s been there ever since. We were posted to an Advanced Flying Unit – Marston Moor, where they were flying the four-engined Halifax Mark 2 and Mark 5. Fifty hours. We picked up our engineer, Sergeant Ted Millington. We had, at the end of our six we were posted to 77 Squadron operating at full Sutton on the Halifax. Full Sutton is near Elvington. We arrived at Full Sutton and when you get [pause] — ages, I was twenty three. The navigator John and the engineer Ted were twenty two. Jock in the tail was nineteen. We managed to pick ourselves up a spare wireless op, Ross, Ross Tinian. A flight sergeant. Ross and Cliff, the bomb aimer they were both old men. They were twenty eight. They were old geezers. So we had a crew without a mid-upper gunner but when we got to a squadron every time I operated I had either Flying Officer Harris as my mid-upper or Flying Officer Davis. Davis was an Aussie. And I was lucky. Everytime they either flew with me. On the two occasions when I didn’t have Harris then I had Davis. So I was very lucky. Once you get to a squadron you’re converted to their aircraft and they were flying the Halifax Mark 3 with radials. And the difference between the Mark 2 and 5 and a Mark 3 was phenomenal. I could get a Mark 3 with a full bomb and fuel load up to twenty thousand plus without any trouble at all. I would have been poorly placed to have got a Mark 2 or a 5 up beyond twelve, fourteen thousand feet, without a shadow of doubt. The difference was quite remarkable. After you’re converted you’re detailed to fly second pilot with an experienced crew and I flew with Flight Lieutenant Taylor and his crew. A night operation to the Ruhr, to Essen — six and a half hours. It was Flight Lieutenant Taylor’s twenty ninth trip so he’d got one more to do before he got a fresh job. Then I was detailed to fly with Flying Officer Charlesworth. Again to the Ruhr. A night trip. Six and a half hours to Duisburg. It was Charlesworth’s fifteenth trip so he’d got fifteen more to do before he got a fresh job. And then I was as free as the air to operate with my own crew. And the first target we bombed was Bingen. Bingen was a town way, way south on the Rhine. Its claim to notoriety was the fact it had fairly extensive marshalling yards. And through those marshalling yards regularly, numerous times weekly, came troop trains loaded with reinforcements from Austria and from Munich for the German front line. And a hundred and five of us were sent out this night cock up the contract. Pick off the marshalling yards and apparently intelligence found out for us afterwards we’d done a good job because no more [laughs] no more troop trains ever came through Bingen from then on. At the end of that trip we were in dispersal doing rundown checks and switching it off and I said to myself, ‘Pete if that was an indication of what you’re tour is going to be like. You’ve got it made. You’re going to make this.’ I’d seen little, no flak on the way in to the target, over the target, out from the target. On the way home we hadn’t been molested or searched for or shot at. It had been a piece of doddle. You get stupid thoughts when you’re twenty three and in charge of a bomber don’t you? I’d like now to give you this map. And this was an actual map of a trip that I did on my eighth trip on my tour to an oil refinery in between Bohlen and Dresden and Leipzig. In the Dresden area between Leipzig and Chemnitz. Our boss, Bomber Harris insisted concentrated bombing was vital. He insisted concentrated bombing often swamped defences and once you got defences swamped then the middle and end of an attack could be as accurate as the opening. If you’re going to swamp, if you are going, and four hundred of us were detailed to bomb Bohlen this night. The four hundred of us would go through. The first hundred at seventeen thousand feet. Five minutes. The second hundred, eighteen thousand feet. Five minutes. The third hundred, nineteen thousand feet five minutes. And the rest twenty thousand five minutes. Twenty minutes — the job’s done. Two thousand tonnes of bombs on the ground. When you think that the Germans, the most weight of bombing they dropped on us was three or four hundred tons, you can understand two thousand just swamps them. They had nothing to fight against it at all. And we thought this was smashing. We thought Bomber Harris deserved a pat on the back for that. We thought that was smashing. If you’re going to control your area you’ve got to, if you’re going to concentrate them you’ve got to control them and so Bomber Command laid down the route we were to fly and I must admit considerable thought had been given to these routes that they gave us. We were detailed this night to leave base at nine thousand feet and we left there at nine thousand feet. Flying due south to Reading at one seven five. When we were going to this part of Germany we always turned over Reading. It gave the locals a morale booster if they heard four or five hundred bombers going out. They’d think, ‘By crikey somebody’s getting their backside kicked tonight. We hope the boys come back.’ We hoped we all came back too. From Reading we turned south easterly and we flew over the English coast at C, the French coast at D, to position E. From E we flew due, roughly due easterly to F. Still at 175. Now if you can continue that line from E to F straight on with your fingers it’s making for Frankfurt, Mannheim, Mainz. So if you’re defending Germany and you’ve picked up the stream you think that’s the target and you can get your night fighters up around. Once we get the night fighters up they could only be up two hours and then they had to go home for a drink. We’re going to be four hours to the target and four hours back again. So it’s good if we can get them up. But long before we get anywhere near Frankfurt, Mannheim, Mainz we turn north easterly to G. Now, on this leg we change from 160 [pause] from 175 to 160 so we’re climbing. We’re climbing to bombing height and so you can say I’m at seventeen thousand feet before I get to G. And G is actually just about, if you move it with your finger is going for Kassel. Fresh target. Before we get anywhere near Kassel at G we turn a little bit more to the east to H. Still at 160. But if you follow a route from G to H with your fingers it’s making for Leipzig. Fresh target. And this was how it was done. To fool up the German defences. We’re changing. We’re going to — because after H we turn north easterly and we’re actually making for Berlin. And he were always dodgy about Berlin. But long before we got anywhere near Berlin at I we turned just below due east and to J. And here we’re just north of Leipzig so that there’s no danger and then we turn on our bombing run to K. At 160, Cliff, the bomb aimer sat in the seat on my right all the trip until we got to the target area when he slid down, went to the nose of the aeroplane. Got his bomb sight ready. And his job now — he had, two jobs, two things. First to identify the target. He’d seen stacks of photographs and pictures of the target at main briefing and the wing commander had given tremendous insight into it. He now had to select it on the ground and pick it out. Once he’d got it picked out then he had to make sure it crossed his bomb sight on the centre line to the aiming point when he pressed the button. Bombs gone. As the skipper, once you heard, ‘Bombs gone,’ your natural inclination was to shove on full power and belt the hell out of there. But that wasn’t possible because when he, when he pressed the button, bombs gone he activated the camera and the camera took five pictures one after the other across the target in thirty seconds. During those thirty seconds you were allowed to increase your speed by ten. That was a big morale booster I can assure you. Once you got an indication from your dash that the camera had finished then it was full power up to two hundred and belt the hell out of there. Once we left the target our speed is now two ten and after five minutes from the target we’d lower height to seven thousand feet. And we fly back over Germany at seven thousand feet until we come to Frankfurt, Mannheim, Mainz where there’s light flak to twelve so we climb up to fourteen. Keep at fourteen until we’re well clear and then we let down to eight thousand feet. And we fly at eight thousand feet via Reading back to the Humber. At the Humber we let down to two thousand feet and join Full Sutton and land. My trip was a little bit different. We set course at nine thousand feet for Reading. We turned across the English coast at C, the French coast at D, to position E. From E we flew to F at one seven five. From F we got our climbing one sixty. And at seventeen thousand feet we level. And after G the starboard inner engine decided to pack up. There was no flak. No night fighters. It was a pure mechanical failure. So it was switch off, fuel off, feather the prop. Speed now back to one forty and I needed left rudder to keep straight. I now had the option of coming back. Dropping down four thousand feet, turning one eighty degrees and coming home on my tod with a full bomb load. I hadn’t got a full petrol load. Of the just under two thousand gallons I started with I’d probably used up three fifty, four hundred but I’d still got sixteen hundred gallons left which was a lot of fuel. If they couldn’t pick me up to predict me they’d alerted a couple of fighters to come up and shoot me down. So I said to the crew, ‘I suggest we stay with the stream, using them for cover.’ When there are four hundred of you every radar screen is covered on the ground. Swamped. And instead of bombing at H plus 4 which was my time on target we’d bomb at H plus twenty at the end of the attack. And instead of bombing at seventeen thousand feet we’d bomb at fourteen thousand feet. And the crew said, ‘Ok skip. Press on.’ Whenever I’d done practice flying at Full Sutton at two and three engines it had been in the Halifax with a couple of hours of fuel on board. The boys don’t fully bomb up and fully tank up an aeroplane for you to go and play with obviously. So I’d never flown one under this configuration at this height and I boobed. Instead of getting there at H plus twenty we were twenty minutes late. We got there nearer H plus forty. But our boss’s theory was right. Defences had been swamped. If there were a half a dozen gunners firing at us that was all. And that was in scare mongering. Cliff picked to go on the ground and bombed it. We took our five pictures. No question of changing speed. I was stuck at one forty and so we turned away and when we came to let down to seven thousand feet we were still at one forty. I remembered that when we were bombing the North German ports Wilhelmshaven, who were Hamburg. We had crossed the North Sea at five hundred feet above the water. When you’ve got three or four hundred bombers, each with four fans whipping around flying at five hundred feet the prop wash is a bit disturbing. So you thanked the lord when you got near the Frisian Islands and you climbed up to bombing height and stayed there. So I thought if we stayed under bombing height like that it might be an idea to go down lower than seven thousand feet. And I went down to four thousand feet. And I must admit the whole way back even through Frankfurt, Mannheim, Mainz nobody fired a gun at us. We were completely clear the whole time. We stayed on the course that they’d laid, command had laid down for us and we were probably in the Frankfurt, Mannheim, Mainz area when the starboard outer, I presume it had been keeping watch on the starboard inner all night thinking Ye Gods he has had a night off. I’ve worked my socks off for this driver. I’m fed up. I’m going to pack up but to let him know I’m going to pack up I’ll make sure there’s a slight explosion and a sheet of flame from the starboard outer which there was. And the driver recognised it was going to pack up so it was switch off, fuel off, feather the prop and I pressed the graviner button. I’d got four graviner buttons. One for each engine. And it flooded the engine with foam which I hoped would douse all flames and it did. Speed was now back to one thirty and I’d got on full left rudder. My left knee locked. That was one improbable out of the way and I controlled the attitude of the aeroplane with power. If I put on too much power the strength of the engines rolled me and turned me to the right. If I took off too much power I rolled and turned to the left. So it was a case of juggling. We ran into cloud. Clouds are very handy. You can hide in it. We knew night fighters were around but this cloud contained icing to the extent that I was rather concerned if we stayed in it indefinitely the build up might be awkward. So we had to get out of it. To go below it might be a problem because it could be on the ground. So it was a case of climbing out of it. To climb I needed power. So it was a case increasing power very slightly so that I could still keep the wings level and keep straight and wait. Wait for my slight increase of power to give me a slight increase of speed, five and whip that five into height ten feet and wait for my five. Another ten feet. There was no panic. We were three seventy, three hundred and seventy five four hundred miles to England, it would take me a good two and a half hours at least to get there so there so was no hurry. And we uched, jigged, gripped our way up to six thousand five hundred feet. We were clear of cloud and I reckoned six five would be ok to cross the drink to UK. So we levelled at six five. I now checked with the nav, with Johnny. I was a bit concerned at the time we’d taken to uch up to six. And he confirmed what I thought, we were nearing the front line. This thought was under the auspices of the trigger happy American gunners and our own gunners, neither of whom liked aero engines. They shot, the American gunners shot them out of the sky irrespective of whose they were. Our own gunners were a bit more selective. So I called the W/op and said, ‘Break the seal on the IFF and switch it to distress.’ In his compartment he had a six inch square back box. The IFF. Identification Friend or Foe. It had a switch that was off, that was wired off and on the wire was a seal. And the wireless ops were warned by the signals leaders back at Full Sutton that if on any trip they interfered with that seal on the strip they’d be court martialled. But this was an emergency. Ross broke the seal, switched it on and immediately, way on the port horizon came three airfield sandra lights. The searchlights at the corner of the airfield intertwining. And on the starboard horizon three more. These were two emergency airfields. That was Woodbridge in Suffolk and that was Manston in Kent. They had picked up our emergency drill and lit themselves up. I made for Manston. When I reached Manston I did the circuit. When I was nicely placed on base leg I throttle back, did a glide approach and landing on the amber runway. Once we were on the ground I used my inner engine to get me through the red runway on to the peri track when I stopped and switched off. Waited for a tractor to come and hook on and tow us in, which they did. They picked us up, took us, debriefed, fed us, bedded. Sleeping in full flying kit that night I think we kept warm. They got us up in the morning. Fed us. Gave us a warrant to London, across to Kings Cross and up to York. And when we walked on the platform at Kings Cross station of the York train we had a bit of a snozzle. The very first compartment we came to, there was no corridor, had a great big notice filling one window completely — “Reserved for crashed aircrew.” And this got the billy goat of our rear gunner. He snatched the door open, ripped it off the window and tore it to shreds and threw it down. ‘What the hell are they talking about? We haven’t had a crash landing. We made a normal landing. Get their facts right.’ ‘It doesn’t matter Jock. We’ve got a compartment. Let’s get in.’ We were all carrying our parachutes. When you’d signed for your parachute you didn’t leave it out of your sight. If you didn’t hand it back in it could cost you sixty or seventy quid to replace and that was a lot of money then. We were carrying — we were in full flying kit. We got in, dumped our stuff, got to York and we were picked up. Taken to Full Sutton. When we reached full Sutton my immediate boss, the wing commander flying, wanted a full report of our sortie which I gave him. And three weeks later I was in the mess and I picked up the Daily Mail, and on the, on the front page were headlines, “Two engines failed but he went on.” And when I saw it I thought well goodness me some other geezer’s having a bash at this. But reading the article it was talking of Flight Lieutenant Peters and his trip over Germany. And some three weeks later I was called in to the CO’s office of group captains. Inside was our AOC, the group captain and my immediate boss Wing Commander Forbes. And the AOC pinned a bit of this ribbon under my wings, congratulated me and wished me a safe and satisfactory tour as did the group captain and Wing Commander Forbes. And that was it. Many many many many many many many months later my Distinguished Flying Cross arrived by post with an apologetic letter from the king. He was sorry he couldn’t hand it to me personally. He was far too busy. Probably handing out awards to sportsmen. Anyway, he sent it by post and he wished me a long and happy life. And considering I’m now in my ninety fourth year and still pressing on he was right.
[recording paused]
After leaving the air force I went into teaching. I taught until 1952 when I returned to flying with air work at Royal Air Force Digby flying the Tiger Moth. After a year flying Tiger Moths I returned to the air force in which I served for fifteen years. Finishing at Royal Air Force College, Cranwell. I then returned to education in Sleaford and finished up my education in ’86 when I retired and I’ve been retired ever since.
MJ: This is the end of the interview with Flight Lieutenant Cyril Peters DFC on the 29th at 12:30.
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Interview with Cyril Peters
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-04-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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APetersC150428
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Pending review
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00:44:32 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Cyril Peters joined the Royal Air Force at Cambridge in 1940 and trained as a pilot in Canada and the United States. On his return to Great Britain he served as an instructor before flying operations as a pilot with 77 Squadron. He became a teacher after the war.
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Canada
Great Britain
Germany
United States
England--Kent
England--Yorkshire
Arizona--Phoenix
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
New Brunswick--Moncton
Nova Scotia--Halifax
Arizona
New Brunswick
Nova Scotia
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
4 BFTS
77 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
British Flying Training School Program
Distinguished Flying Cross
Flying Training School
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Harvard
Initial Training Wing
military service conditions
Oxford
pilot
RAF Ansty
RAF Elvington
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Manston
RAF Marston Moor
Tiger Moth
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/598/8867/PLimerF1501.1.jpg
8e9bbb05a79b231711fb1dfa8843b53a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/598/8867/ALimerFW151210.2.mp3
7a453c946d3036ebfd5c0a7f7301c24c
Dublin Core
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Limer, Frederick
Frederick W Limer
F W Limer
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Limer, F
Description
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An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Frederick Limer (Royal Air Force). He flew operations a as a bomb aimer with 149 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-12-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Transcription
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AS: Okay that’s fine I think it’s working now. So this is Andrew Sadler interviewing Freddie Limer for the Bomber Command Archive on Thursday, 9th December, 2015, at his home in Epping. Thank you for speaking to us Freddie. Can I ask you to start off with how it was that you came to join the Royal Air Force?
FL: At the beginning of the war I was a management trainee, after a short while the company decided to discharge the, all the trainees when the war broke out, and I was er, on reporting to the Labour Exchange I was sent to work in a factory, and during my experience in the factory I learned how to weld, both arc and acetylene welding. And that company was a long way from my home so I decided to ask the Ministry of Labour if I could transfer, so I transferred to another company, an engineering company which was close to my home. There I was taught, eventually I was taught how to inspect taps and dies, it was on that job that I eventually decided that having learnt that the whole of the company, but more particularly inspectors of taps and dies [laughs], were reserved and couldn’t volunteer other than for special services. I enquired of the local recruiting station what these special services were, they listed, submarines in the Royal Navy, Tanks in the Royal Tank Regiment, as my brother was already a lieutenant in there I said, ‘To hell with that I didn’t want him as my commanding officer.’ Or aircrew in the Royal Air Force. I decided that I’d volunteer for aircrew in the Royal Air Force, as I had been left school by then quite a bit my maths was a bit weak so when I was eventually assigned a job in the Royal Air Force if was a, a wireless operator/gunner, and I reported eventually to Blackpool. I did a course at Blackpool and as during the period of my acceptance in the Air Force and my call up, I decided that I should try and swot up on my maths which I knew were weak at the time of my original enlistment. So at Blackpool once I’d got half the way through the wireless course I enquired and was allowed to apply for a reassignment. They gave me then a, a list of questions and mostly mathematical that I had to fill in which fortunately I was successful. They then posted me from Blackpool to Lord’s Cricket Ground in London, where the assembly there was the, er, full of pilot aircrew. After a, a few days there, fortunately it was close to my home, so I used to nip home from time to time, but after a few days there I was then posted to No. 12 ITW at St. Andrews. Did the course on the at St. Andrews and towards the end of the course the government had introduced a new system where each of the cadets coming through ITW’s had to take a twelve hour flying test with Tiger Moths. We were assigned to go to Scone in Scotland, only a comparatively short distance from St. Andrews. It was a grass runway, my two colleagues, the three of us used to go together. My two colleagues passed with flying colours, one of them soloed in four hours and the other soloed in seven, and they were obviously destined to be pilots in the Royal Air Force. Unfortunately I, on my solo, I had a slight mishap, I might point out that the aerodrome was a grass runway, they used to have these things cutting the grass with dirty great poles sticking up in the air with flags on, well one of them actually didn’t have a flag on when I finished my solo. So needless to say I, that terminated my possibility of becoming a pilot. I then was sent to a small unit which [telephone ringing].
AS: Okay there we go were on, sorry do carry on.
FL: I was then transferred back to Reception Centre in Heaton Park, Manchester. I was there for a few weeks before I was transported to Liverpool where we boarded the Queen Mary and were destined for New York, destined for Moncton the Reception Centre in Canada for all RAF aircrew, I was apparently going to be an observer. On our way over in the Queen Mary we’d learned that there were a few ships that we thought most unusual but we thought the Queen Mary would be used to travel over fast on its own, but there was in fact a cruiser some distance away, and further away there was a small ship that we thought might have been, er, a destroyer or something like that. Sure enough when we got to America one of the colleagues observed coming out of the one of the rear windows, rear doors rather, Winston Churchill, it apparently there was also the rest of the War Cabinet and this was of course when they were having a meeting with the President of the United States. From our point of view we learned that there was an epidemic at Moncton in Canada where we were supposed to go, therefore we were transported to Taunton, in Massachusetts in America onto an American Army Air Force Base. And we were told that we might be there for a few days, a few weeks, we didn’t know. However, it was a bit of a godsend going there because it was the first time most of us had ever tasted a T-bone steak, and in UK at that time the T-bone steak size was the equivalent of family’s month’s ration, it was enormous, most of us made ourselves very ill eating these. However, we didn’t do very much there other than give drill demonstrations to the Americans, then the epidemic was cleared in Canada and we went to Moncton. At Moncton as usual of course in the Air Force there’s a dirty great pile of people there and we were there for a number of weeks. One of the interesting features about Moncton was that having been there a long time they had then developed a, a, number of the blokes had developed a little variety show and they used to give this show approximately once a week. To our surprise when we first went to our first show the compere and comedian of this show was Jimmy Edwards, he was obviously destined for Canada for his pilot training. However, after that we were all posted off to our various stations. I was posted to a 31 Navigational School, er, and that was on, on, on Lake Erie, and completing the 31 Navigational School course which was basically navigation and other ancillary qualifications we were then posted to another station, Fingal, which was a bombing and gunnery station. At Fingal we, although I was only an intermediary as far as examination results from the navigation and the other qualifications, when we did the course at Fingal I was top of the class, or top of the course on bombing. The bombing was in fact a single target that you approached at different heights, and dropped single bombs and then the assessment was the pattern that you had created. For becoming the best bomb aimer on the course I was awarded a little, tiny little medal which is referred to as a pickle barrel which showed a bomb dropping into a barrel, I still have the, the little medal today. From there we were posted back to Moncton, from Moncton we were then transported to a port on the coast, Canadian coast and boarded a ship called the “Louis Pasteur”. The journey back on the “Louis Pasteur” was in fact a nightmare by comparison with our first class journey on the “Queen Mary”. I think everybody on that ship was sick, and we came back in hammocks from there, contrary to the lovely quarters we had had on the “Queen Mary”.
AS: So there we go.
FL: From the “Louis Pasteur” we were transferred once more to a holding unit, and I and others went on to Staverton to start our courses, but we were informed that our observer badge did not qualify, had being phased out, and that we had to select from our qualifications as an observer one of the requirements of a seven crew aircraft, i.e. Stirlings, Lancasters, and Halifaxes. And as I had qualified pretty high up in bombing I decided to become a bomb aimer. From there I, from Staverton doing courses on map reading and various other activities connected with bomb aiming. Unfortunately on one of the exercises we were obliged to descend rather rapidly because the pilot had received instructions that was enemy aircraft in the area. His descent caused my right to ear to split and I was therefore, when we landed I was in considerable pain, and I went into hospital and was there for ten days before they allowed me to come out, and then they indicated that there would be a short gap before I’d be allowed to fly again. The short gap elapsed and I then was transferred to a unit where all the aircrew of various categories were assembled, it was in RAF language a dirty big hangar which there were pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, gunners, the only missing person was the engineer, he arrived at a later stage in our training. From there we went, we, we assembled, and we were all NCO’s at the time, I was a little senior because I had been in the Air Force a little bit longer than most of them, and hearing the pilot also was senior, so within a short period of time we were made up to flight sergeants. During our crewing up and our training we did the usual courses in together, this exercise was in fact having to go onto twin engines as he had only been, most of his training had been on single engines. He, we did this together and part of this twin engine training was in fact part of an OTU, but on Wellington 10’s, we did that and we did, strangely enough we did two operations where they were supposed to be diversions, and we dropped window, after we’d done that we then, Ian then had, had to take various courses in converting to four engines. We went to a station, we were all together, went to a station where he was converted onto Stirlings, and from Stirlings we then proceeded, all of us at the same time were doing our various training and exercises so forth in the crew, and by then of course we had added to our crew an engineer. Engineers at that time were very junior they course was round about six to eight months, and within six to eight months were, they were crewed up and some of them were on the squadron, other crew members were of course much longer periods of time dependent on who they were. From there we proceeded to be assigned a squadron and we were assigned 149 Squadron which was in fact a satellite, of Mildenhall which was called Methwold. Ian was then converted onto Lancasters from the Stirlings, the pilot was converted on Lancasters to Stirlings, and the rest of us were of course at the same time doing various exercises of our own particular trades. After we’d completed the initial work on the Lancaster we were then assigned to operations and we started on our operations. The first one being over to a place in France and unfortunately the weather closed in on our return to Methwold and we were diverted to St. Eval in Cornwall, this was quite a harrowing experience for the pilot and the navigator, but the pilot came through with flying colours and eventually we landed at St. Eval and we had roughly about fifteen minutes fuel in our tanks. We stayed there overnight then returned to our base at Methwold. Have a break.
AS: So while we’ve been paused Freddie has shown me his log book and his first operation that he’s just described was on 11th January, 1945, and the operation was to bomb Krefeld [spells it out], and the second operation on 13th January, was to Saarbrucken [spells it out], and it was diverted to St Eval [spells it out]. Okay thank you very much. Shall we restart?
FL: Er, from, where were we, we’d just done our first operation.
AS: Yes to Krefeld, yes that’s how we, yes.
FL: Okay. All the other ops are in there.
AS: Oh yes. Good.
FL: Okay? Restart?
AS: Yep, yes we’re ready to go. So do you want to tell me about any other of your operations?
FL: One of the operations that was in fact somewhat hairy was the operation up for Dresden, later on in our number of ops, and there our navigational aids went wrong and we were virtually lost, we were however buzzed by a German aircraft which we learned later was a 262 one of Germany’s new jet fighters. It, we however got free of that, but then Ian the pilot who observed certain water marks, water areas that he considered were way, way off our track, and he suggested the navigator that we should now turn course north and go back to base, at the same time Ian and I, the pilot, discussed what we were going to do about the bomb load. We had observed the pair of us that we were over quite a large area of what we considered to be forest land or open fields, so it was decided that we jettison our bombs but that I should make them safe, we did so, and the bombs were released safe. We then proceeded on our course north as Ian had suggested and low and behold within about thirty minutes I observed that there was a city in front of us, or approximately in front of us, eventually the navigational aids having restarted Joe the navigator indicated that the possibility was that it was Paris, and sure enough it was Paris. From there the navigational aids appeared to come back to normal, we then set course and arrived back at base in due time, needless to say the interrogation of our crew particularly the navigator, and myself, and Ian the pilot, was pretty considerable in view of the fact that we had to, (a) not reach our target, and (b) jettison our bomb load. This was however accepted and nothing further was heard on this particular incident.
AS: And from your log here that would have been on 13th February, 1945, you’ve noted here to Dresden, and the pilot Ian, was Flight Sergeant Sturgess?
FL: Flight Sergeant Sturgess yes.
AS: So really you were, you really started with your first mission in January 1945, this was quite close to the end of the war?
FL: Oh yes, oh yes indeed, oh yes indeed. That’s my because I volunteered in 1941 the er, and my training had taken some time, the crewing up etcetera it was December ’44 because, before we arrived on the squadron, and our first operations were in January of that year, lots of the familiarity of the change of aircraft onto a Lancaster, and consequently our tour was conducted pretty late in the war.
AS: Yes, your in your log book here it’s Christmas Eve 1944, 24th December, with pilot, Flight Officer McKey, and your remarks are, ‘you were checking the circuit’.
FL: Well he was in fact instructing Ian broadly speaking on the use of the Lancaster aircraft from the Stirlings that we were that Ian had been trained on up to that stage.
AS: Yes, and you’ve got here that the flight was fifteen minutes, and then, and then there’s another flight the same day with Flight Sergeant Sturgess as the pilot, circuits and landings, twenty minutes.
FL: Yes, yes, well that’s familiarity with the Lancaster you see. Which from then on of course we, also in my operations you will observe in my log book that we did two food drops over some open ground outside The Hague.
AS: Oh right.
FL: And that was a particularly interesting feature because I was responsible for checking out the food drop, and for the food in the bomb bays as all bomb aimers were, and on the second trip I decided to obtain a little plastic bag and filled this with this stuff that I got from the NAAFI, as well as I’d put my flying rations in there, when I dropped the food on the second trip I dropped this little plastic bag with it with my little parachute that I’d put on with one of my handkerchiefs. It’s interesting on that particular point that after the war my mother received a letter from a lady thanking her for the little gift dropped. [laughs] Excuse me I’m going to cry. Little gift that she had hand dropped during the war and although the food was rather spoilt, most of it was spoilt there were some elements of the food that were edible.
AS: Oh how nice. [laughs]
FL: That letter incidentally I took back from my mother, I gave it and talked about it to one of my sisters, who had a Dutch friend after the war, and she accepted the letter, and that letter I’m given to understand is in the war time section of the Dutch Museum in —
AS: So when, I see here you’ve got one of the operations marked here as “Cooks Tour” would that have been the dropping of the food?
FL: No, no, no. At, when operations were in fact, bombing operations were ceased by the RAF, some squadrons, ours happened to be what is known as a GH Squadron.
AS: Yes.
FL: Which was an extended version of G which could in fact navigate with greater accuracy, we then were assigned to do what were known as line overlaps, photographs of certain areas of Germany. Oh yes, this at the time was in fact classified as being secret.
AS: And looking at your log here in April ’45 it would appear that you only did two operations, one was Kiel, and you put the “Admiral Scheer” sunk so presumably that would have been against a ship?
FL: On that particular operation that you refer to, Kiel, I [phone ringing]
AS: You were just about to tell me about the operation to Kiel.
FL: One of my operations I flew with a crew other than my own, it was an Australian pilot, the rest of the crew were British, but the destination was Kiel Harbour, and we were given the target of the “Admiral Scheer” which was docked there with other battleships, and we carried only one bomb, it was a twelve thousand pounder, and we were given to understand it was for the armour piercing. Several of us in squadron had this, this particular bomb, and several of us claimed that we had dropped our bomb on the “Admiral Scheer” and sunk it because we learned later that the “Admiral Sheer” was sunk, and as there were about thirty odd aircraft there and they were all bombing the same targets it was doubtful whether any one of us could claim individually that we were the person who sunk the “Admiral Scheer”, but we all did. [laughs]
AS: Yes, so, and I’ve just found in your log here that on 3rd and 8th May 1945 were the dates where you’ve put here special operation to The Hague, food, two hours twenty-five, and two hours fifteen minutes each flight.
FL: They, they were conducted, the bombing height was two hundred feet, which was pretty low in a Lanc, and we weren’t sure whether of course the Germans were going to shoot us or not at that time, fortunately none of us on our squadron had any mishap at all on that particular operation.
AS: And then you’ve got —
FL: Other operations that we did what were known as line overlaps, these were photographs taken in sequence over what was known as a square search, where the aircraft proceeded over one course and reversed over the next adjacent course and photographs were taken of those and they were referred to as line overlaps, the cameras were operated by myself on the instructions of the navigator as and when to start. I did a few of those operations, but they I think were confined to a couple of squadrons in 3 Group. At the end of the war of course the ground crews were all very interested in what was happening or what had happened so we did an operation or two what we referred to as “Cooks Tours”, taking ground staff piled into the aircraft to observe what had happened to some of the near targets on the Ruhr. One or two of them were females, and they were, it’s a little bit uncomfortable of course in a Lancaster for people trying to observe, and there were some very near misses where people trod on the wrong thing but they went off successfully. Another interesting feature on one of the operations that we did, when we proceeded from the perimeter track round the main track to get to the runway the gunners used to have to, on each operation, test the traverse of their turrets and their guns, the rear turret in particular and the mid-upper, but on one occasion the rear gunner had what is known as a runaway, the strange thing about that was he had the runaway when we were passing the guard room and he was reprimanded for this for carelessness but no further action was taken. Another incident when we first arrived at the aerodrome on proceeding to the guard room to sign in, we observed that behind the main counter of the guard room there were a long line of coffins, and when our little mid-upper gunner, Titch Holmes, saw these, he screamed out, ‘Bloody hell.’ And we thought that that was quite appropriate considering that we’d just arrived on the squadron. [laughs] That’s one or two of the incidents on the squadron which. After the war I was appointed by the squadron commander as the designated rather as the bomb aimer to go to Royal Air Force Bomb Ballistics Unit at Martlesham Heath. I was in fact on selection appointed to this and I then served from May 1946 until August 1948, during that time the operation, the operations at that time were secret but I should imagine now the secrecy of that itself not particularly important, but our role there, I was the only bomb aimer on that unit. There were several pilots and we, our role was to fly from Martlesham Heath to Woodbridge at Woodbridge, as most bomber command people will know was the emergency aerodrome for bomber command and had a runway which was exceptionally long, and it was said that light aircraft could take off on the width of the runway. Most of our loads then were the single bombs as a general rule and they were loaded at Woodbridge, we took off from there and flew through Orford Ness, over Orford Ness we were then guided by radar, they informed us what height they wanted us to travel, what speed, and therefore we had to release the bombs on their instigation, they then tracked the bombs which then landed on the marshes at Orford Ness and we then proceeded back to base to reload or merely rest. The aircraft we used for that operation were Lancasters for the heavier bombs and altitudes up to about fourteen, fifteen, sixteen thousand feet, and then we had the Mosquito which we used for high altitude up to thirty-two thousand feed, this was the first time that I had been involved in a Mosquito, and as you know the Mosquito only has a two man crew and therefore I was obliged to bring in the fact that I had been trained as a navigator as well as a bomb aimer. We did several trips like in the Mosquito, as well as the Lancaster, and eventually we had finished or what appeared to have been finished our operations with that unit. It took approximately eighteen to twenty months to do this and after that we then rested from that type of activity. The station at Martlesham Heath was in fact a peace time aerodrome, mainly dealt with experimental, but in war time the Americans used it, and we released it from the Americans when we took over the Bomb Ballistics Unit. We spent most of our time, I think the airmen spent most of their time clearing the gum from underneath all the tables and chairs in the various messes. The mess at Martlesham Heath, the officer’s mess was a delightful place, there were of course only about eighteen serving RAF officers there but we had quite a number of boffins, scientists who were in fact members of the mess, and I had the unfortunate duty of being assigned the catering officer of the mess and I took that like a duck to water, and also I had a colleague there called Reg Kindred, who was the adjutant of BLEU [?], he was minus his left leg, he was a pilot and had been shot down over France in a Manchester a twin engine aircraft that was doomed to failure. He was repatriated to the UK by the Germans on the grounds that he would not be able to fly again, and this was truly the case because he then became an adjutant and he and I were buddies on RAF station.
AS: Good.
FL: I had one or two interesting duties when I was at Martlesham, as I previously said I was made assigned catering officer of the officer’s mess, when my colleague Reg Kindred left he er, he was the bar officer I had to take on that role as well, which I did with relish. I was responsible for getting beer and what have you from the various breweries, we used to get beer from Cobbolds in Epping in Ipswich and we always used to get other beers, but Cobbold’s beer at the time you used to get as much as you liked, all we had to do was order it and they used to send little trucks along with it, ‘cos it was generally known in the mess as “Cobbold’s piss”, ‘cos it was so weak, in those days some of the beer was very weak, but we used to get beer from Fremlins, which is a delightful beer but that was very rationed, and there was a great deal of hard work done as to who had more Fremlins than had more Cobbold’s. [laughs]
AS: So when you were dropping bombs on Orford Ness what was the point of that?
FL: The point of that was Orford Ness was in fact a peace time experimental station and they were in fact tracking the bombs to test various faculties about them.
AS: Right.
FL: Their speed of acceleration, accuracy of other elements of it, but broadly speaking that was, with all the bombs they were testing the accuracy of the bombs in their release from an aircraft at a given speed to given height as to how accurate their trajectory was in hitting the target that they had assigned.
AS: Oh right, so all your entries in your log in 1947 were obviously just really you’ve got lots of entries saying bombing and then the number of feet.
FL: Yeah, well at the time you see we were restricted because it was comparatively secret then, we were restricted as to stating too much fact in there, and also we were restricted in stating the bombs that we were using, but on one occasion when we were dropping a twelve thousand pounder we’d picked it up from Woodbridge it dropped off as we were taking off, and the aircraft rose like a god almighty rocket and we were obliged not to put that into our log book, ‘cos it was felt that it was put in there it had to be recorded and the airmen who were responsible for fitting that would be court martialled, and we were kindly advised not to put it in our log book. But you might find in my log book that I have slipped in one of them when we dropped a twelve thousand pounder, twelve thousand pounds in there.
AS: Oh right.
FL: But as a rule we didn’t state the bombs that we were dropping, that was the general rule not to do so, but we dropped practically every type of bomb, other of course than the “Cookie”, the four thousand pounder which I think nobody arrived what it’s trajectory was it arrived on the target sometimes I think or somewhere near the target, but each bomb load that the RAF carried or bomber command carried invariably carried a “Cookie” which was in full of course high explosive.
AS: And you’ve got entrances in here for June ’46, photography and radar runs, and training programmes, air tests, and then you’ve got ferrying ex-prisoners of war in May ‘45?
FL: Yes, it was, it was after the war between my leaving the squadron, or rather not leaving the squadron, the end of my time in the squadron, the crews then were being split up. The senior pilots like mine was in fact transported away somewhere else or released, and the junior pilots then took over and we were assigned to a, a, collect POW’s from, POW’s that had been in the bag for a long time from France, from [unclear], and also we collected about eighteen, seventeen or eighteen of those at a time, we didn’t carry the gunners at all, we had an engineer and I was the marshall of the, the bomb aimer as I was, was the marshall ensuring that the men were properly placed inside the aircraft so that they didn’t in fact cause too much possibility of damage or, or accident. There was one accident I understand but one squadron to that, er, aircraft crashed and there were some fatalities in that, but we didn’t have any of that possibility. Later on as well as collecting POW’s from Europe we also went out to Fermignano[?] in Italy to collect POW’s from there, but we only did the one trip because we found it was far too uncomfortable for soldiers in the main to be housed in an aircraft like the Lancaster for such a long journey, and I think that was discontinued as it was felt it was far better for them to be transported by boat, although it took longer, it was far more safe and comfortable to do that, we only did the one trip from Fermignano [?] which is Naples of course. But when we were there of course we were there for three or four days because the weather had closed in and some of us had the opportunity of being escorted up Vesuvius, and that was quite an experience rather hot underfoot, but, but it was quite enlightening.
AS: How long were you in the RAF after the war finished?
FL: From the end of the war up to 19 November 1948.
AS: Oh gosh.
FL: Which was quite a while, I haven’t worked it out precisely, but that was the period of time. Because I was at Martlesham from June ’46 until August ’48.
AS: How many operational sorties did you do altogether then there?
FL: Actual operations over Germany, only twenty-two.
AS: Twenty-two that’s still quite a lot.
FL: Well the tour was thirty you see.
AS: Yes.
FL: But the, my tour was made up of the operations that our squadron did, line overlaps the photographic thing because there was still the possibility then of possible accident, or possible enemy fire, but although the war was over. Even when we dropped this food over Holland and we were warned then that there were still some Germany people who were a little bit trigger happy, I think one or two aircraft did in fact experience single bullet hitting their aircraft, we didn’t at all we had very comfortable two trips.
AS: When you finally demobbed from the RAF how did you fit back into civilian life?
FL: Very slowly and I immediately decided that I should get back into earning my income because my gratuity from the RAF we all felt was rather paltry, I think I received two hundred and eighty-seven pounds, and if you want to find that two hundred and eighty-seven pounds you’ll find it at the Valentine Pub in Ilford [laughs] with the other chaps that were being demobbed at the time, mainly RAF some Naval, there were about eight of us used to go to the Valentine and we had regular visits to the Valentine Pub and eventually we were running out of cash we then all were obliged to start thinking about earning a respectable income because we were then placed on the dole as it was called in those days. But I decided to take a refresher course with a company in Holborn on sales and marketing and that was around about six weeks, after that I decided on information that I had received to visit the Officers Re-employment Unit just outside Victoria Station, and I was fortunate enough to be able to get in touch with a company called Bakelite, where once more fortunately the sales manager there was an ex major in the Army and I found that the, the eight salesmen eventually they took on were all ex-service, either warrant officers, officers, warrant officers and sergeants, no other ranks were part of the his crew of trainee representatives, some of them had already been there before me and were in fact quite senior. But I, the course I then had to take was to, I was placed in the Wearite [?] division of Bakelite which is the plastic with the decorative plastic division, and then I was assigned to go to Victoria report there, and from there I was sent to Ware in Hertfordshire where I did a six week course in what laminated plastics were all about and what Wearite [?] was all about, and I enjoyed that very much because it was in the factory learning lots of skills that I’ve never ever thought that I would experience. I eventually we, from there I was then transferred back to the London office and there I was given an area that I was to cover as a, as they termed us technical representative, because we weren’t salesmen we were trying to get people to become distributors of the product, we didn’t sell direct to anybody, and also to train people in precisely how to use the laminated plastics at the time.
AS: After you left the RAF did you keep in touch with your comrades in your crew?
FL: I didn’t keep in touch with any of the comrades in the crew because we dispersed, it wasn’t until about a year later when I was, nearly two years later when I was married and living in my present house that somebody had phoned my parents’ home in Barkingside and asked whether Fred Limer was there and they indicated that he had died. The people who lived in that house got in touch with me and let me know what had happened, and I said, ‘Well the person who died of course was my father and whoever you informed you have informed him that I was dead.’ However, they fortunately they had taken the individuals telephone number and name, they passed it on to me and it happened to be my pilot, Ian Sturgess, so I got the telephone number and decided I’d phone him up. [laughs] I phoned Ian and when he came on the phone I said, ‘Ian Sturgess, this is Freddie Limer raised from the dead.’ I heard him go, I heard him go. He was then managing a farm, he was a farmer, managing a farm, anyway we had a long conversation and then eventually I went down to see him in where he was managing this farm and then we continued our association together, and as I had then become a member of the Bomber Command Association, I used to go to their functions a number of times a year, and Ian was not a member of any of this, I invited Ian twice a year to come to the AV, the AGM and also the Autumn meeting and they were luncheons and things and I used to meet Ian on those occasions, when I first met him on those occasions he indicated that he thought that I had not changed a bit, and I felt exactly the same thing about him, we were both lying of course [laughs] we’d got very much older. And I saw Ian for a long time after that and eventually I was informed by Elizabeth his wife that he had fallen and had fractured his hip and he was very unwell and he had in fact died and that arrangements were made for his funeral etcetera but it was strictly private family affair, but they were holding a wake and a reception and that I would, if I would like to come, and my wife the, and daughter would be delighted to see us. Later on when I gave an article to the local paper and gave them a photograph of our crew, I was, the reporter whom I knew, reported about the food dropping exercise and the picture was noted by a young person living in Lowton [?] a nearby town, and she said that one of the crew as her father, which happened to be Joe Siddell [?] the navigator.
AS: Oh gosh.
FL: So she told her father about it and Joe came along and saw me, so we had a long chat. I’ve seen him since he now can’t drive apparently he had a prang with his motorcar but he lives not too far away from Elizabeth, Ian Sturgess the pilot’s widow, not too far away from there. And from time to time I get in touch with him on the phone. So they’re the only two members of the crew, I did learn that Dagwood, or rather Wilfred Oxford, the engineer, had in fact died, but I haven’t heard anything about the gunners. I beg your pardon, I had heard about Bill Buckle, the wireless operator, he was a villain on the squadron, he was a woman chaser, but he eventually, according to Joe Siddell, the navigator, he moved out to Australia, because he’d gone out with some people that he’d learned on the squadron, known on the squadron, and was now living in Australia with his family and was quite prosperous. But other than that the other crew members, oh I beg your pardon once again, I heard from Titch Holmes, the gunners, the mid-upper gunner’s son phoned me one time, he phoned me because he’d seen in the press about my MBE and he wondered whether his father could come and see me, but I learned from Ian that Titch had been to see him but he was, um, Ian didn’t like, like him too much because he was trying to sponge money out of him, and I thought when the son phoned up and asked if he could see me, I said, ‘Well it would be inconvenient for him, for me to see him.’ So I never did see Titch. I wasn’t very keen on Titch he was a little miner about the size of two happeth of pennies, but he was as strong as an ox, and he frequently got into scraps in the, in the pubs when we used to go and have drinks together, and one time he took a swipe, took a swipe at me, fortunately I got out of the way of it, but as boxing was in fact my main hobby. But no apart from that, members of the crew, it’s only because I’ve been thinking about it and reflecting on it that I remember these incidences of remembering these, these people. But as I say after the war I did this course, sales and marketing, joined Bakelite, rose to be the manager of the, after about ten years rose to be the manager of the Midlands area, decided because I couldn’t have the financial arrangements with them without moving house etcetera, I decided to leave Bakelite because I’d been offered a directorship in one of my customers’ companies and they’d offered me a quarter of the shares of the company, but they were wanting me to manage the company for them, and manage the sales and marketing in general, which I did for about ten years. Eventually the, we were paid, paid the same salary each and also the same bonuses each but eventually they the other three decided that they wanted to retire, and they retired we agreed to sell the company, but I had to agree with them because they would have outvoted me to a young couple, well one of them wasn’t all that young but he was a qualified accountant. But the other three left but they asked me if I would be prepared to stay with the company for about twelve months and would pay the same salary that I receiving now and bonuses but they would also put a respectable amount of money into my pension fund which it sounded attractive so I stayed with them for that period of time. In fact it went further than a year, and eventually I left when they decided that they were moving to a much larger factory and became a much larger company, the company is called Decraplastics, it’s pretty large now, much larger than it would have been with my three colleagues and I. I left them and I came, decided that I would get involved locally with activities in my town of Epping. I was in a pub once talking to a friend, and I said, and I talked to him about the fact that I thought that having lived in Epping for a quite while it’s about time I got interested in doing some activities or others. He said, ‘Well interesting, I’ll, er.’ Next day I received a phone call from a friend of his saying ‘I understand —‘ From then on I did in fact decide to become a councillor, and in 1965 I was elected as a councillor on the Epping Urban Council, and found on the council that the activities the council did were activities which I, I, I, I found I had a lot of interest in. Some of them [?] and I was made chairman of the housing committee, I took like that, to that like a duck to water, thoroughly enthralled by it, and I was chairman for a few years and decided that having revamped the whole idea of the council house both the waiting lists etcetera, we decided that we would commit people with the financial resources to do so to buy their council houses, and in mid 1960’s we decided to do this. At the same time people also wanted to, I decided that people who were under occupying their council houses, like on investigation we found that there were couples who were in three bedroom houses, there were elderly in accommodation most unsuitable for them, there were some single persons in three bedroom accommodation which was very wasteful considering we had a quite sizeable housing waiting list. So we then set about planning to build and did build housing suitable for the elderly, apartments in the main, that were managed by a manager or a warden or whatever you want to call it, and that they would be transferred there, we found that some of them didn’t have the resources to [coughs] to finance their removal so we assisted in that direction. There were several buildings that we eventually built to house these people and a lot of the houses one they were then vacated for and we cleared off our housing list, at that time was somewhere in the region of about four hundred, we cleared the whole lot off and a lot of people started buying their council houses. Which then of course a reorganisation took place in 1973, and I was then the having been the chairman of the council twice, I was the senior councillor who led the team in the reorganisation set up which four other three other local authorities were involved and we, we it was decided the way we would set up what was then became a new district council. The new district council then had a population of one hundred and twenty thousand, from the fact that we had started off with our council having about fifteen thousand was somewhere in the region of an enlargement.
AS: When you were selling off the properties what was the rationale behind that?
FL: Mainly because a lot of the people that were living in there had indicated that they didn’t want to move because they had jolly nice neighbours, they’d spent quite a lot of their own money building up there houses and they felt they would like to stay there. We inspected a lot of houses to try and verify this, added to which I was fortunate enough to have a councillor that had been retired who also was a past schoolmaster who kindly agreed to get a team of people, half a dozen people [coughs], ex councillors etcetera to do an investigation of the houses for me to get a clearer picture of who lived in the houses, what their attitudes were broadly speaking etcetera, and this was the picture that we got was the considerable under occupation, a fair amount of people who had lived in their homes and felt they didn’t want to move because they’d spent a lot of money improving them etcetera, they would like to buy them if they could. It was on these grounds that, I would say persuade the council that we should sell the houses to the tenants. Wasn’t all that many, I mean it was a fair number, but the urban council only had council houses of about twelve hundred or more, and then beg your pardon, twelve thousand or more, and the task wasn’t a great task being a salesman by trade or by occupation broadly I found this exercise to be rather fulfilling and of course my colleagues realised that [coughs] I knew what I was talking about. Anyway that went through fairly successfully and I say right up to reorganisation.
AS: And this was something that you decided at the council rather than part of the Conservative policy.
FL: Oh no, no, no, no. I wasn’t interested in Conservative. Although I’m by political indic, indication a Conservative I’m just about a Conservative, just about a Conservative. On many of the, I was totally opposed to nationalisation that what swung me in favour of being a Conservative because the Labour Party at the time of course were very, very much in favour of nationalisation. But it’s with that I strong, I didn’t have strong political attitude because I wasn’t really a politician when I first became a councillor.
AS: Were you standing on behalf of a Party or?
FL: I was standing on behalf of the Conservative Party, that’s broadly speaking why we got in, because at that time the swing was towards Conservatism in the district and we swept at that, within two years we swept all of the Labour and Liberal, as they were in those days Liberal not Liberal Democrats, Liberals off the council so the twelve of us at that time were all Conservative, when I was then became the senior councillor. But as I say when reorganisation took place in 1973 urban councils then were abolished, town councils were created, which my group myself created Epping Town Council, but we also became part of creating, six of us became part of creating the Epping Forest District Council which had fifty-seven, fifty-seven councillors, but unfortunately of course we only had six, therefore we were for the first couple of years not even considered until they found out that some of us knew what we talking about and from my point of view they knew what I was talking about when I talked about housing so I was persuaded, I persuaded them to let me become chairman of the housing committee. After I’d been chairman of the housing committee and started my usual process of right to buy continuation we started drawing in, buying in houses that were in our area that belonged to other councils, Walthamstow, Waltham Abbey, there were some there, they were GLC council houses in here, we bought all of those out and brought them back into our own fold in the Epping Forest District. I initiated broadly speaking the policy in relation to that and then of course after having done that as I say I was invited by the World of Property Housing Association to join them if I would care to. I did join them and then became a member of that particular organisation which after about twelve months decided to, to extend their activities and alter their name to Sanctuary Housing Association which is well known today. They made me, or persuaded me to become chairman of Essex Committee, then they persuaded me to become chairman of the Hertfordshire Committee, then they joined those committees together and asked me to be chairman of both the committees, the joint committees. Later they invited me to become member of central council which I, all of this is voluntary in my particular case.
AS: Yes.
FL: And costing me.
AS: Yes.
FL: Apart from the fact I got travelling expenses and when I was away for a long time I had lunch and all the other things catered for, but that’s all, I wasn’t paid. I was opposed to payment at that time [coughs]. Anyway the procedure with Sanctuary was more or less similar to my procedure in the council, I became vice-chairman of the council of the association, appointed also manager of a group that were responsible for the development of Shadwell Basin [?] because there was a large piece of ground on there owned by the housing association and they wanted to develop it, and we developed that into a large block of flats, beside on one side of the basin they were about eight detached houses. The detached houses were sold, the flats initially were let but a lot of people once more wanted to buy them and there was no objection if they wanted to pay the right price which Sanctuary agreed to do. Then on the other side of Sanctuary there was another piece of ground there that we developed that and there we confined it to rental, but we confined the rental to nurses, firemen, policemen, and one or two of the other, doctors as well, who wished to be locally located, a lot of those were rented together and there were roundabout I think about two hundred, say two hundred, two hundred, I think it was two hundred and ten, and they were all let, but eventually of course a lot of those people wanted to buy them and eventually they started buying them as well.
AS: I think that one of the problems in London is that properties have become so valuable that they cease to becomes, they’re very much investment opportunities.
FL: Yes. Oh with Sanctuary I then as I say I became vice-chairman of the central council and by then I’d been with Sanctuary about ten years, eight, ten years and they wanted to persuade me to take on the duties of the chairman which I refused, but I did accept the duties of the chairman of the special projects committee, and that was the most gratifying committee that I found. And today Sanctuary is the largest Housing Association in the country and also I’m pleased to say that they are doing a lot of care facilities for people and in a nice good way, and also a lot of, um, they started letting people buy some of their houses but I don’t think they were enthusiastic about it, which I didn’t push, but ultimately of course I was getting on a bit and decided when I was seventy-nine that I’d had enough and I discussed with the chief executive and the treasurer, two very good friends of mine by then, that I was going to retire. They regretted it but understood, and I graciously after persuasion by some of the members of the committee I understand gave me a crate of my favourite red wine when I retired, which I so enjoyed, and I did leave Sanctuary regrettably but I think it was inevitable, and I’m pleased to say that as time as gone by, I’m still in touch because I’m still a member and still life president although that role is a non-entity really, but unfortunately most of the council members are now paid. The chief executive and treasurer have got salaries that I think are higher that the Prime Minister’s but that is I’m afraid life now that people are paid these monies in order to, the organisation to attract the most skilled people they’ve got lawyers, managers, what have you on their committees, so that they are in fact as I say the most financially balanced housing association in the country but, and the chief executive I understand recently awarded a CBE,. which in the past being slightly socialistic he wasn’t inclined to want, but I think the grade of CBE I think attracted him a little bit more than an M or an O and I think that, that I believe changed his mind. I’m still in touch with David and treasurer, not very much, I occasionally get acquainted with their activities but I’m gradually receding into the background, I’m still filling in an annual little return about what activities that are going on and what I think of them and the people that are on the central council which I’ve got no jurisdiction over at all so it’s just a question of fill the paper in and sign it I do that annually. They used to send me a catalogue, a diary at one time, but they don’t anymore which I regret very much because it was a damn good one. [laughs] But there you are it’s closing down at the age now of ninety-four given up most of my activities when I was eighty, I regret to say that when I retired from the Epping Forest District Council, having been disgustingly fit most of my life I then bumped up against one or two health problems which am fortunate enough to have skilled doctors, and skilled practitioners, specialists in our local hospital whom I became very friendly with and they were very, very accommodating, and I have been cured of most of those activities the only thing that I do now is take quite a number of pills and I never walk fast these days in case I rattle. [laughs]
AS: Thank you very much Freddie I’m very grateful for the opportunity to hear your story.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Frederick Limer
Creator
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Andrew Sadler
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-10
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALimerFW151210
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:36:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lancashire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
England--Blackpool
Scotland--Fife
Scotland--St. Andrews
Canada
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
France
France--Juvincourt-et-Damary
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Krefeld
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Netherlands
Netherlands--Hague
Germany--Saarbrücken
Description
An account of the resource
Freddie Frederick volunteered for the Royal Air Force and did a course in Blackpool. He was posted to No. 12 Initial Training Wing at St Andrew, although was unsuccessful in his flying test. Freddie was then trained at RCAF Moncton in Canada and posted to 31 Navigational School on Lake Erie. He came top in a bombing course at RCAF Fingal.
From Canada, Freddie went to RAF Staverton where he became a bomb aimer. He transferred to a unit where he crewed up and was made a flight sergeant. Further courses were taken on twin engine and four engine aircraft. In December 1944, Freddie was assigned to 149 Squadron at RAF Methwold, a satellite of RAF Mildenhall, where they converted onto Lancasters.
Freddie describes operations to Krefeld, Saarbrücken, Dresden and Kiel. He also was involved in two food drops to The Hague. They became known as Gee-H Squadron for their greater navigation accuracy. They did classified work doing line overlaps: photographs in sequence of certain areas in Germany. Freddie also refers to Cook’s Tours at the end of the war. He was involved in flying back prisoners of war from Juvincourt in France and Pomigliano in Italy.
After the war, Freddie was appointed bomb aimer at the RAF Bomb Ballistics Unit at RAF Martlesham Heath whose operations were secret. They flew in Lancasters and Mosquitos through Orford Ness, a peacetime experimental station, which tested the accuracy of a wide number of bombs.
After Freddie’s career in the plastics industry, he became a local councillor and chairman of the council. His housing work continued with various governance roles for a housing association.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
149 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Gee
guard room
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
mess
Mosquito
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Martlesham Heath
RAF Methwold
RAF Staverton
RCAF Fingal
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2027/32391/PCarbyHV2101.2.jpg
bbd2b4ee4289cffaef960ac3558dcda5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2027/32391/ACarbyHV210315-01.2.mp3
adca178c51cd72709158dd9ae6dd55e7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Carby, Hazel
Hazel V Carby
H V Carby
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Professor Hazel Carby. Her father Carl Carby was born in Jamaica and served as a navigator in RAF Coastal Command and later RAF Bomber Command.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2021-03-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Carby, HV
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: Ok. So, today’s the 15th of March 2021. I’m Heather Hughes sitting in Lincolnshire and I’m talking to Professor Hazel Carby who’s agreed to be interviewed for the IBCC Digital Archive because her father, Carl Carby served first of all in RAF Coastal Command, and then in RAF Bomber Command. So, Hazel, thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. I discovered about your dad through having read your incredibly moving and wonderful memoir, “Imperial Intimacies,” and I’m sure that there will be a lot of times that you want to refer to, to the, to the book and that’s absolutely fine. Maybe it’s going to encourage listeners to, to pick up that book and read it as well because it is indeed a very wonderful and moving account. If we could start off this is an interview partly about your dad and partly about you and, and your, your experience of growing up knowing in the knowledge that he had come all the way from Jamaica to serve in the Second World War, which is partly what brought him to Britain and gave him a basis on which to, to stay in this country for the rest of his, for the rest of his life. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit first about him and then we’re going to talk about you and your family. But tell us a little bit about where your dad was born and brought up.
HC: Yeah. My father was born in Kingston, Jamaica in 1921. He was raised by his, by his grandmother and you know, Kingston, well Jamaica in general was although it was a source of wealth for the UK, the population living there at the time were incredibly poorly paid. Starvation wages they used to, they used to call it. So, you know he had a very, like other Jamaicans in the city it was, he lived in a very poor area. Then in fact during, you know, during the ‘30s there were the starvation wages marches where people were actually begging to be sent into the penitentiary because there at least they would have been fed. They were starving and so because of the starvation there was, there were a lot of health problems. Jamaica was being run directly by, it was a Crown colony it was being run directly by the Colonial Office, by the UK Government, but it didn’t have you know the emerging health system that was being put in place in the UK in Jamaica. And companies like, you know Tate and Lyle who were reaping enormous profits did not put any of that money into, into wages. In fact, there was a big strike in the ‘30s. They wanted a dollar a day [laughs] they thought they’d been promised and they couldn’t even get that. So, you know, people talk about emancipation after enslavement but it was, it was another form of sort of, you know of, of indenture really, actually if you, if you want to call it that. So when my father was quite, quite young he had to, he actually had to leave school. His father, his father deserted the family. My father actually grew up with his grandmother but the fact the rest of the family weren’t far away. My grandmother was very young when she had him but anyway his father left, and my father had to leave school and, and go and earn money to take care of school fees and other sorts of things for the rest of the family. And of course healthcare wasn’t free or whatever so he was, he really became the financial provider for the rest. For the rest of the family. He worked in, as a, as a clerk in, in the back room of a of a store. I think he had originally started by cleaning up and then worked to evening, went to evening classes. And it was clear that he must have received the patronage of, of the owner of the, of the store because I’m pretty sure that he must have put in a word for my father to get him into, you know the college and to do some, well he ended up becoming a book keeper so he was doing math and English and things like that. He was clearly, my father was clearly very bright so he did well from that point of view. So —
HH: But he also, obviously he, he somehow perceived education and qualifications as, as very important in terms of improving himself.
HC: They were key. They were absolutely key for him. Education. He would tell me that he was, he was very very upset when he’d had to leave school to go and earn money to support the rest of the, of the family and he had clearly had encouragement, you know from, in particular one of, one of his uncles who was a sort of, I don’t know a sort of a self-educated polymath really. He had taught himself various languages or whatever and so and I think you know my, I think my grandmother had been a very ambitious woman but her, you know her husband had died in the Jamaica earthquake of 1907 so they, you know they lost their, their wage earner then. And the British government was very paternalistic in terms of the quote unquote their support. They were quite eager to support [pause] well, white survivors. But you know the white, sort of plantation class if you like from the earthquake but they had some very, very stringent requirements about support after the earthquake and you know operated on terms like the worthy. The worthy people. I mean who was worthy depended a lot on class and skin colour and, and the usual, you know divisions that imperial governance imposed. So it was a very, very hard life. When the war began the RAF was not actually accepting black recruits, and the recruits, the white recruits from Jamaica who did join up I think actually had to travel to England. So they, they, you know you had to be, you had to have money to do that. But in 1942 when those policies changed actually there was a training scheme that started up and my father had to take exams to enter this training scheme and pass, and it clearly was, it’s a terrible thing to say about war actually but I think my father looked at it as an opportunity, you know to, to earn money. And during the war there were very very strict embargoes on, on trade and imports. Things like clothes and food —
HH: Yeah.
HC: Had become, you know very, very expensive. And he got, you know he would tell me that he, he was given two suits of uniform and things. That actually it’s that’s not actually not a petty thing.
HH: No.
HC: When, when you can’t afford clothes. Do you see what I’m trying to say?
HH: Yeah.
HC: So and it was also an opportunity I think for him to, to use his education and he’d always believed in the British sort of education, you know, system. The courses he was doing at college were from the Royal Society for the Arts and stuff they were, and those were the examinations he’d taken. So he was very proud of that sort of success. So anyway so he was, he was among the first recruits from Jamaica to aircrew.
HH: Amazing.
HC: He passed the exams for aircrew and they were transported from Jamaica to, by boat to New York where actually they were, they were given a long lecture on the sort of racial, racialised codes of the US and how they should behave. And then they were transported to Canada by rail and in those days actually Canadian Railways did have a, did have a line down to New York. So after, after a very long journey he ended up in Moncton in Canada which was a very, very large Commonwealth air training unit and so there were people there from all over the world. From South Africa, Australia, New Zealand. One of the things I discovered in terms of the absences in RAF history is that you look at all these histories that you can obtain of the Commonwealth Air Training Scheme, the Commonwealth Air Training Plan and you can’t find any reference to those being recruited from what I think of as the black colonies. You know there are records of the South Africans, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the Canadians and in fact even the US volunteers who, who went up there. But you try and find the sort of Trinidadians and those from Barbados and those from Jamaica like my father, and they are not part of the official history at all.
HH: No.
HC: And in the, in the National Archives at Kew it took a long, long time to figure out that actually they did the various, I’m trying to think of the name. The various sort of squadron leaders. I don’t think they were called a squadron but the various leaders of the different units. Moncton was huge. I mean this, this was like enormous. So I could actually sort of eventually figure out which of those units he was part of, and I also realised that they kept daily logs. There was someone on each unit who kept daily logs. And it was only by going through and scrutinising these daily logs that I was actually able to actually find his arrival with others from the Caribbean, because the ship had been going to various islands and picking up RAF volunteers because it was all volunteers.
HH: Yeah.
HC: It wasn’t a conscription. And in fact, Canada is a, is a lot better with its records actually and very, very helpful. I actually went to Moncton and the librarians there were extraordinarily helpful. I mean they really were, you know incredible. So Canada has a very different attitude towards these histories it seems to me than even the British government do now. And the Canadian people, I mean my father always told me that the Canadian people were extremely generous. I mean, they would invite, you know, crew to their homes and he would be sent food even, they obviously kept in touch with him because they would send him hampers of food from Canada.
HH: Oh, is that when he arrived in the UK?
HC: From Canada.
HH: Oh gosh.
HC: From Canada. Yeah. So, and the other thing you know my father told me about being there at Moncton, and I have sort of maps of the whole way that the, you know the various units were laid out. It’s quite an extraordinary thing. But the other thing that he remembered. I mean the first one was, he was very proud of being in the RAF obviously and there was this story of clothes. But he was also totally amazed at the food. I mean you’re talking about someone where food had, had not, you know been easy to come by their entire life.
HH: Yeah.
HC: And there was just all this. I remember him telling me stories. As much as you could eat. He couldn’t believe that there was food as much as, as much as you could eat.
HH: Yeah.
HC: So, so as I say it’s a terrible thing to say about war but coming from the poverty that he did come from I think he did think that this was an opportunity. He didn’t hesitate. He believed in [pause] I’m not sure that he believed in imperial rule but he, you know he believed in British education system, whatever and he was prepared. He was loyal. He absolutely thought he was, you know, he was very loyal to the sort of British ideals of fair play and things he’d actually grown up in. Well, he’d been educated into. Even though he hadn’t been the recipient —
HH: Yeah.
HC: Of this fair play and this justice. He did believe.
HH: Well, it was a sort of ideal that he thought probably like so many other people who served from the colonies that it was an ideal that the, and what the war was being fought for.
HC: Yes. And I think also for his generation because in the 1930s the protests, and the rebellions had been so powerful that in fact if it hadn’t been for the war breaking out in ’39 there was already a huge influential movement for independence actually.
HH: Interesting.
HC: For the, for the realisation of these ideals by really achieving emancipation at last.
HH: Yeah.
HC: And a sort of freedom. And I think my father did think, you know and I heard him, you know tell stories about this. That they really were fighting for these ideals against, you know a tyranny represented by the forces of, of Nazism and fascism. So, he had, you know those motivations were propelling a young man to be prepared to risk his life.
HH: Yeah.
HC: So —
HH: So he, he’s trained in Canada. In Moncton. Does he go anywhere else in Canada?
HC: He actually starts training in Jamaica.
HH: Oh, he started training in Jamaica. Ok.
HC: In the camps they set up. They had a training thing there and that continued in Moncton while he was waiting for the convoy. That’s really why he was there. It was a huge transportation hub. So in addition to, you know training pilots and doing was they also actually were transporting people to the UK in these massive convoys. And when the convoy that he was going to be on was ready he was transferred with everybody who was going to be on that convoy to New Brunswick. And that convoy, I think he must have been in Moncton I think I worked out for maybe six to eight weeks.
HH: Ah huh.
HC: I forget the exact dates now. I’m pretty sure they’re in the book but anyway. Yeah. So then he was, they were then transported by convoy. And also in the British archives I’ve put together some of my father’s stories about the convoy being attacked. With information I actually found how to look up all the history of all the convoys.
HH: Gosh.
HC: Going across the North Atlantic. It was quite an extraordinary. It was, I don’t know, working through these military records is interesting. You have to sort of figure out. It takes a long time to figure out exactly how they work and I had to actually learn all the different coding systems which, which I did. But I put together my father’s memories of being attacked. The convoy being attacked, and which ships had actually been. He would tell me stories about, you know as he, as he said the crew that, that were lost. Not in his ship but in the, in the ships around it. Anyway, I put together his stories about remembering this torpedo attack and ships being destroyed with convoy records.
HH: Interesting.
HC: And that’s when I discovered that actually his convoy was being used as a, as a decoy because they had actually discovered how the German coding system was working, but they didn’t want the Germans to knew that they knew about the coding system. So they basically, you know they divided the convoy up and they sent them directly to, you know to a, you know to a submarine group, toward a submarine group and when the submarine group attacked they destroyed the submarine group. But some of the convoy actually also was destroyed. But I was, I also became very interested in, I don’t know, what it must have been like in the bows of those ships, you know, and how sound travels underwater faster than in the air and trying to imagine what it was, what it was like. And I found some record in, in Jamaica —
HH: Gosh.
HC: Of people who had you know they’d been interviewed about being in convoys and those quarters and what it was like so I assembled various records from from various archives trying to sort of re-imagine that because my father did not provide those sorts of details. He never talked about being scared.
HH: No. Interesting.
HC: Or what it was really like in the bow of those ships. Do you see what I mean? And he said that it wasn’t actually until they, they arrived in the UK that they realised what ships had been and it was always like, these people had been lost. I mean they weren’t, you know the language of, of avoidance was quite profound. I think you, you know, you managed to survive being part of a war machine by also a sort of language that really didn’t acknowledge that people were dying around you.
HH: Yeah.
HC: I suppose.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Quite horrible deaths. So it was just, it was, it was trying to sort of discover the details of these stories that my father didn’t want to tell me if you like. To really start to understand how, how you actually have to survive as part of a war machine. Although he did tell me that when they arrived at RAF Bridgenorth, he and the other recruits, there were a couple, there were other recruits with him from the Caribbean. You know, how those sort of black volunteers were treated really very, very badly you know. There was, there’s an example I include in the book of the racism that they suffered when they were introduced in excruciating detail to what a toilet was, and what a shower was and how you washed yourself and kept yourself clean. I mean extremely, extremely sort of demeaning.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
HC: So, he never, he never explicitly said and he never really sort of said oh they were a racist bunch of whatevers. He wasn’t that sort of person. He was very, very reserved. But he did, and he in fact he actually wrote that in the letter about in, in detail, because he knew I was working on the book. That was something, you know —
HH: Fascinating
HC: He chose to, he chose to tell me just as an indication of basically how they were regarded by, you know by the UK.
HH: Yeah. Which was which they wouldn’t have dreamed of telling white recruits.
HC: No. No.
HH: So, yeah. So, yeah, I mean I think that there are probably, when one stands back from some of this there are two kinds of racism to deal with here. One is what is now called but wasn’t then I guess structural racism, and the other was casual. You know, it just depended who you came in to contact with, you know. And, and you know it seems as if there are both of these kinds kind of, there are interplays and interactions and some people get, get really caught up in, in terrible situations and others tend to sort of escape the worst of it, it seems to me in terms of the, the memoirs that I’ve read and the interviews that we’ve, that we’ve done and but, but there are definitely these two different sorts of, of discrimination going on at the time I think. Even though the RAF was officially had lost its colour bar by then it wasn’t quite like that.
HC: You know, I think there’s a way in which the racism is deeply entrenched. It is, it is institutionalised in that.
HH: Yeah.
HC: You know, because they actually needed more person power because of the exigencies of, of war I don’t think it meant that they actually really respected these volunteers from India, from the, from what came to be known, you know the black Commonwealth if you like. [laughs] You know, needing, needing fodder for war doesn’t necessarily mean that you regard everyone who’s volunteering with any sort of, you know equity.
HH: Yeah.
HC: So —
HH: Yeah.
HC: I mean I think you know he did he really, he went into Coastal Command. He was a navigator and radio operator he’d been trained as. And he really clearly felt that was an important role. I mean they, they were also looking for wolf, they were looking for the wolfpacks of the sort that actually had attacked his convoy.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
HC: You know. They were also doing a lot of which actually my father found very interesting. The sort of scientific study of weather patterns and things, you know.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Various other operations and he clearly, he clearly really liked that. I think he felt he was learning a lot as well as actually playing an important —
HH: Indeed. Yeah.
HC: Role. My son actually found in a museum I think in Edinburgh in a display case, because he sent me photographs of the suits that they wore in Coastal Command because it was unbelievably cold. It wasn’t like these planes were heated but the suits were. And so my son sent me that it was it was really very interesting in these like bulky seats I was trying to sort of, you know imagine.
HH: Yeah.
HC: What it must have been like in Coastal Command. But the other thing I would say is that it was clear that I think there’s a, you know there’s a, there’s also a vulnerability being in these planes. Whether actually it’s in Coastal Command or later in Bomber Command that is shared and that the, because of what they’re going through aircrew become extremely dependant on each other. And it was clear that he felt the bonds that he was forming with other people as crew not as black, not as white, you know, not as brown were forming bonds that he hadn’t ever experienced before in Jamaica.
HH: Interesting.
HC: You know, where the class skin colour system was extremely rigid, and no one would ever have experienced any, any sort of, any equality between the various —
HH: Yeah.
HC: Skin class demarcations and separations. It was clear there was something over and above that happening between aircrew. I mean this is not something I can experience for myself.
HH: No.
HC: But it was clear in his, in his language that there was a real closeness —
HH: Yeah.
HC: And interdependency among this various aircrews in, in spite of, and I suppose also because of the dangers they —
HH: Yeah.
HC: They were facing together.
HH: In that sense, I mean it’s an interesting point that it would probably have been novel for all of them to experience that kind of closeness across various colour bars at that time in history in those crews.
HC: Yes. And I think, you know it was also clearly very, you know, fraternal. Just something happening between and among men. It was also I think what started me thinking about this was because I had an uncle. The next, my father’s next brother down who was also in the RAF.
HH: Oh right.
HC: Yeah. But he was in, he was ground crew and this was not something that my Uncle Dudley experienced.
HH: No.
HC: He was, he was far more vocal about the daily insults.
HH: Interesting.
HC: You know and the racism that they all faced, and my uncle was, he was the one who used to tell the stories about how, although my father was clearly involved in this sometimes but he, he, my uncle was the one who would actually come out with the stories about how often they had had to fight. Get involved in fights in alliance with black Americans.
HH: Oh wow.
HC: Against the white military police, US military police who would invade dance halls. Who would attack and, and arrest, you know black Americans if they were seen with white British women and that sort of thing. And there was, it was clear that there was a lot of alliances and resistances.
HH: That’s, that’s so fascinating. It’s —
HC: Among the sort of the black British and the black US forces.
HH: That’s really fascinating.
HC: In the policing, the policing of social places.
HH: That’s really —
HC: You know, all these contestations that would happen in pubs or dance halls were a real —
HH: Huge things dance halls.
HC: Right. Yeah. So but it was but yes it was basically a unified front against the US military police.
HH: That’s really fascinating, Hazel. Do you know where your Uncle Dudley served?
HC: No. He died when I was a child.
HH: It’s probably, it’s probably would have been somewhere in East Anglia which is where most of the African American airmen were based. Yes. That’s very fascinating.
HC: Yes. It wasn’t, it wasn’t just airmen.
HH: Oh, so it was, yeah —
HC: It was —
HH: No, it was, it was GIs as well.
HC: Oh yeah. It was GIs too.
HH: Yeah. Ok.
HC: Yeah. And, and because the, you know, because the various parts of the country practiced this, you know this social segregation.
HH: Yeah.
HC: The, the days where, you know white Americans had leave as opposed to black Americans and that sort of thing. It was happening all over the country.
HH: Ok.
HC: There were, I think it was a hundred and thirty thousand.
HH: Oh, it was huge.
HC: Black US sort of maintenance forces.
HH: Yes.
HC: Just in the West Country alone.
HH: Yeah. I mean it was huge.
HC: I mean these places were huge.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Yeah.
HH: What’s interesting, you know it’s an interesting point just that your, your uncle was also in the RAF like your father because —
HC: So was my grandfather.
HH: Oh really. Amazing. Gosh. So, that’s quite a history. Family history. Yeah. So, your, your father as far as I can work out from —
HC: That I should also my father’s father.
HH: Yeah. Your father’s father.
HC: He was brought from Jamaica.
HH: So your father’s father was Wilfred. Is that right?
HC: Yeah. And he also served.
HH: Amazing. Gosh. Incredible. So your father served for most of the war as far as I can tell from, from your account in the book, in Coastal Command and then quite late in the war he joins Bomber Command. Is that right?
HC: Well, he, he must, no he must have left. I’m not sure how long he was in Coastal Command actually.
HH: Ok.
HC: Because when he met my mother that was at a dance in Worcestershire, and they were married by 1944.
HH: Ok.
HC: So I think after Coastal Command he was actually based from what I can remember, he would talk about Herefordshire.
HH: Ok.
HC: Before then he was, before he was then transferred to RAF Waddington in, in Lincolnshire.
HH: Ok.
HC: And you see I would need the actual official RAF records.
HH: Yeah, well we can get that.
HC: To confirm those dates.
HH: Because it’s going to be really fascinating to see that.
HC: Yeah.
HH: But he, I mean he clearly sort of comes to Waddington. Your mother lives in Lincoln, and he flies a number of operations from Waddington. And he mentioned to you I think that he had flown on an operation to bomb Essen.
HC: Essen. There were two operations he would talk about. One, one was Essen. That was because I was really, really pushing him because I was, you know I was a very [pause] I was, you know, I spent a lot of my college life protesting outside of the American Embassy against the Vietnam War. So, we had conversations about war where we were very much on, sort of opposite sides, I think. My father trying to argue that, not that always but sometimes it was necessary and it was because of, it was because of the bombing, it was because of the atrocities basically that the US forces were perpetrating from the air in Vietnam that prompted me as a student. So you’re talking about, you know ’67/68 to attempt to confront my father about aerial warfare.
HH: So interesting.
HC: And I also had learned enough by then as a student and remember as someone who was fighting their own battles at that time to be recognised as black and British which is a whole other story. But I had by that time also read enough to understand that actually aerial warfare and bombing was, you know was started, it was practiced first against the colonies by the British. This is the history of the aerial warfare so, you know I was trying to push him to talk about the contradictions as someone who had grown up in a British colony about them participating in, you know the British war machine. And that’s, that’s when Essen came out but the only stories, the only things he would talk about in relation to Essen was that their targets were, you know industrial. This was part of fighting against the German war machine. He wouldn’t talk about civilian casualties.
HH: No.
HC: And I don’t know in some ways that he could really afford —
HH: No.
HC: To, to sort of revisit all of that.
HH: No.
HC: The only other operation that he talked about that he was actually extremely proud of that was I think also launched from RAF Waddington was a rescue mission to Italy. I think, if I’m remembering correctly it was actually perhaps a bomber. I’m not sure but anyway, a crew had had to bale out, or a plane had crashed or something in Northern Italy and they went and they actually did manage to rescue the crew.
HH: Gosh.
HC: But that, you know those were the, he wanted to talk about what he did in Coastal Command. He wanted to talk about rescuing people.
HH: Interesting.
HC: He didn’t want to talk about what he left. What he left behind him in Essen.
HH: Yeah.
HC: He did talk about the terrible losses of rear gunners.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Because they were the most vulnerable.
HH: Vulnerable.
HC: He would, he would talk about how terrible that was actually, and he would tell me. He told me one story about a rear gunner when they got back. They must have landed in RAF Waddington at some point and, and left to go in the barracks but the rear gunner must have been asleep or something because he woke up. The plane was silent and he leapt out of the plane and pulled his parachute because he thought the plane was going down because [laughs] I don’t know. There was some, he would tell amusing stories and he would tell stories about I don’t know the officers serving them at Christmas and that sort of thing. He would tell stories about his promotions as he became a non-commissioned officer, but he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t talk about Essen other than —
HH: Yeah.
HC: Those targets were purely —
HH: Yeah.
HC: Industrial.
HH: I mean, I think that that’s quite —
HC: I knew better.
HH: Yeah. I think it’s quite a common form of defence really in, in a way for those aircrew partly because they were facing such enormous dangers themselves in the air.
HC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: But I think what’s so strikingly unusual about your particular story is that it’s very very rare for a daughter to have had these conversations with her father. It’s usually sons and the fathers have never really spoken to daughters. So, I mean, I find that really an interesting part of your story is that it is just so unusual that it was because of your own, because of your own sort of political involvement as a student that sort in a way created a bridge to talk about these things with your father.
HC: Yes. I think that’s true.
HH: Yeah. So I mean your, your at the, at the end of the war your father applied to undertake further training ostensibly as a preparation for returning to Jamaica.
HC: Yeah. Well, the British, ok the Colonial Office and the Foreign Office were playing very different roles actually in relation to all the people they had recruited from the colonies. Not talking about just RAF people. Even just military people but the Honduran foresters working in Scotland. All the people working in the factories in Liverpool producing armaments etcetera. And this goes back to the sort of racism that we were talking about. The institutionalised racism. The Foreign Office and the Home Office were extremely keen on getting everyone to commit to returning to their home colonies at the end of the war. The Home Office was terrified of having a black population after the war. They were terrified of the threat to Britishness particularly. I mean this is not unrelated to the fear of, of black men and white women having children but anyway they had to make, people had to sign these forms. Make these promises that they were all going back. The Colonial Office, and I’ve been through all these minutes it’s quite strange. The Colonial Office were much more wary. What they didn’t do, they didn’t, the Colonial Office really understood how close for example the Caribbean had come to outright rebellion before the war. They also, the Colonial Office also understood that there were generations now of people who had become educated and who were committed to movements for independence. For decolonisation. The Colonial Office understood that there were political, political consequences for how black recruits of all sorts, all the different peoples and this is brown too. I mean this is, you talk about India, you’re talking about all of the colonial world. They were very concerned that this idea of having to be repatriated was in fact not made public and they had to be, they had to be there to be very cautious of doing this because they were very, very wary of, as they used to say all the time of causing unrest in the colonies. So you have the sort of Home Office and the Foreign Office, the sort of protect Britishness, protect whiteness. Protect Britain as a sort of ongoing white nation, right and the sort of interests of the Colonial Office which was actually just keeping everything peaceful and not firing up those sorts of people who were in fact serving in the military who were going to go back and become leaders of their colonies and lead these movements. So, they were always aware of that, of that tension. But anyway, so because my father had served, like other people who had served he did qualify if his education had been interrupted, he did qualify for actually taking courses. So my mother had, when they married my mother had had to leave the Civil Service because she couldn’t be a married woman in the Civil Service. So yes she had moved to Lincoln, but my father’s courses were going to be in London so he was still serving in the RAF but he was on secondment. And these are all the records that you can find in the Colonial Office papers in, in Kew because the Colonial Office were, had all these people under constant surveillance actually, and it was very interesting when you see all these records, you know together. In fact, there are a lot of these records are of people who went. Who returned to their, to their countries and led, you know resistance movements and decolonised or whatever.
HH: Fascinating.
HC: So the Colonial Office were not wrong about, about that. So, so he was still serving in the RAF but he was on secondment and he wanted to do an accountancy course. He wanted to become an accountant. Yeah. So then I looked up all those, you know records and then you come across I suppose rather a different form of sort of racism. A more sort of paternalistic form of racism because the Colonial Office were, you know very aware of what people were, people were facing when it came to sort of finding jobs and they were also aware that you know my father had married a white woman and all this sort of thing and then was having a child. So they kept scrupulous, scrupulous records. But yes, he was supposed to return back like all the others. He was supposed to go back to his home country. There wasn’t anything to go back to of course, like, you know, my father would tell me this. So —
HH: But he applied for a, he applied to leave the RAF and to stay in the UK then.
HC: No. He, he was in, he was in the RAF all the time he was taking the courses.
HH: Yeah.
HC: He was in the RAF until I think 1947.
HH: Ok.
HC: Yeah. And then he was discharged. I mean, I can double check those dates but I think it’s —
HH: No. But the thing is that he, he somehow, he was able to make a case for staying here.
HC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Yeah. He did actually have to go. He was, one of his, after he’d finished with the courses he was sent to Jamaica actually.
HH: Oh, really?
HC: So, yes he was. Ok. So they had, they had a way of sort of demobbing people in fazes and so he went back with a ship full of people who had been demobbed. In charge of them really, you know. So yeah he was and then, and then he, he came back. I was already [pause] I’m just trying to think. I was already on the way when he did that.
HH: Ok.
HC: Because that was the summer of ’47 and he was, so he was still serving in the RAF, and I was born January ’48 and he returned that Fall so he must have been discharged in the Fall of —
HH: Ok.
HC: Or the Autumn, sorry of ’47.
HH: Ok.
HC: After he, after he’d taken the returning servicemen back to Jamaica.
HH: Ok. That’s interesting. Most veterans in the post-war period found that it was a badge of pride and it helped them to get on in the world to, to be able to say that they had served in the war. Particularly I think that was the case for the RAF. Did that work in that way for your father?
HC: No. No. The opposite actually. I mean my parents couldn’t, you know they found it hard to find anywhere to live together. Actually, they couldn’t for a long time so no [pause] There’s a lot of stories during the war, you know of how all people from across the empire were welcomed. You know, when they were in uniform and fighting. Once the war stopped the country didn’t want those, those brown bodies at all. At all. They did not. The racism was extraordinary. Wouldn’t rent houses to them. Wouldn’t rent any sort of accommodation. So it wasn’t until they could, my, my mother had some savings, it wasn’t until they could actually put down a small deposit on actually what was a bomb damaged house. We could, we could only live on the ground floor, that they could, and that was in Streatham that they could actually be, you know together.
HH: Together.
HC: My mother was completely vilified. And I was. You know, half cast children. It was, it was, it was a racist nightmare actually.
HH: Yeah. I mean, I think —
HC: What they lived through. Both. All of us. All three of us.
HH: Yeah.
HC: And there was immediate historic amnesia actually about any of these, of any of these people from across the empire from India, from Africa, from the Caribbean, fighting.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you talk so movingly or you write, sorry so movingly in your book about that question sort of which kind of framed your early life. This question where are you from? Yes, but where are you from? Yes, but where are you from? Did your father have that as well after the war?
HC: Oh yeah. All the time. My father. Ok. My father had that all the time. I mean I didn’t realise he was going through the same thing when I was a young child. When my parents retired and moved from London they moved up to York. My brother lived up there. He’d been up there for years. He’d, he’d gone. Moved up there for, for a job. And it started all over again. My father used to tell me how, and he used to try and put it in the politest terms that the neighbours as he was saying trying to be polite would ask him all these questions about Jamaica. He had not been to Jamaica since 1947 and he’d lived in, in the UK since 1943. But it wouldn’t occur to them to ask him anything about the UK. They thought he must [pause] you know. So, this sort of sense of being totally other haunted him his entire life.
HH: Yeah.
HC: And it was actually as a, you know the racism takes different forms at different moments, and after sort of Margaret Thatcher’s encouragement of the extreme right in the UK. The formation. The British National Party, the sort of real rise of fascism that my father was actually attacked. You know, as an, as an older person by fourteen year olds who, who had swastikas carved into their skin. I mean they stoned him at a bus stop when he got off coming back from work one night. So the, ‘Where are you from?’ that I was experiencing initially was part of that post-World War Two reaction against black migration in to the UK. I mean the UK was on its knees right after the war.
HH: Yeah.
HC: It needed, it needed people to run the National Health System.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
HC: It needed a workforce but that didn’t mean that it was, that it was welcoming.
HH: Welcoming.
HC: And in fact, you know, people from the European, what they called European displaced people were actually offered all sorts of support with accommodations and encouragement that actually people from the Caribbean didn’t get.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Because it was imagined that people from Europe displaced by the war who were regarded as white could integrate and become British. It was never imagined that people from the black colonies could become integrated. Could really become British.
HH: Yeah.
HC: They were seen as a threat to British character and, and values. So then, you know when I was being asked, you know, ‘Where are you from?’ It was, it was a denial that I could have possibly have been born in Britain.
HH: Or belonged here in any way.
HC: I was actually quite upset, you know.
HH: Yeah. Tell me there’s, there’s an incident that you describe in your book about, in school when you were at school and you stood up in front of your class to tell your class about how your father had been in RAF.
HC: It was, it took a long time as a child to understand that the stories I was being told at home about family history which is also, you know history were very different from the stories I was being told at school under that label. Quote unquote, history. So, yes in Primary School we were all asked to stand up and describe what our fathers had done during the war. And I remember vividly the boy who stood up before me, you know talking about Egypt and sand and dust and flies. I mean his, I think, you know his father was driving tanks across the desert. And so then I was next and, and stood up and said, ‘Well, my father was in the RAF,’ and was immediately shut up by the teacher and told that I had to sit down. And then we were all given a lecture about the consequences of lying. It was terrifying actually. It was terrifying. I mean I grew up, there was a photograph on our piano of my father in his RAF uniform and so it’s this, along with this question of, ‘Where are you from?’ Which I realised, it took a long time to realise, really wasn’t actually a question of geography. It was actually a sort of racial fiction. I was asked to account for myself in ways that a child cannot possibly account of myself. And if I said I was born in Britain that was even worse frankly because then I was this aberration. The story of being as thought of as a liar by my teacher was, as I say in the book my first introduction actually to, to British history, and so that’s that sense of Britain actually mobilising a global war machine was completely replaced by the Churchillian, ‘We stood on our own. We were entirely on our own.’
HH: Yeah.
HC: The other thing I learned about this that the teachers said, was not only that there were no black people fighting during the war they could not possibly have been in the RAF. The crème de la crème she said of the British fighting machine. So there was also, it came when I had to say, what I was trying to say my history, what my father did completely contradicted in some people’s minds the sort of mythology of the RAF as this incredibly prestigious elite fighting force.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
HC: So —
HH: Your, your, did, did you ever get to visit Jamaica with your father?
HC: No.
HH: So when was your first visit to Jamaica?
HC: My first visit to Jamaica was in the early ‘70s actually. I went with my mother. So, my father was the eldest in his family actually, which was why he was raised by his grandmother and looked after the rest of the family. But after the war, now his next brother down was already also in England because he’d been in the RAF and did some training and stayed and married. They felt a real responsibility for the rest of their family. The next brother down, my Uncle Duston was in, migrated to the United States without papers after the war, and he volunteered to fight in Korea, because if you agreed to fight in Korea you got US citizenship. Now, together what they basically did was to pool their money and to get everybody out of Jamaica one by one. I told you that life in Jamaica was extremely hard and the poverty, you know, the poverty was intense. I don’t. Our family wasn’t part of the Jamaican elite.
HH: No.
HC: My uncle told me actually, he said the phrase to describe our family was no shoes poor. That’s what you said if you went to school without, without shoes. But anyway, so that their response, their basic responsibility was to the rest of the family and one by one in fact everybody did then move to the US.
HH: Gosh.
HC: Because, well the UK, you know became completely antagonistic.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Any further migration from the Caribbean.
HH: So there wasn’t, so, so by the 70s perhaps there wasn’t the same sort of family connection to go back to if, if —
HC: No. There wasn’t.
HH: Yeah.
HC: They were out by then.
HH: Yeah.
HC: They were out. No. They were out by the —
HH: Yeah.
HC: They were out by the early 60s.
HH: Yeah.
HC: You know, including my grandmother. Now, so when I came to the United States in 1969 I met them all.
HH: Ok.
HC: So, and there was, there was a large, you know family over here. I met my Uncle Duston who was then still in the, well he had visited. I mean some people had visited the UK.
HH: Ok.
HC: Before that. But I met them all. I met all my cousins. So, yeah and we are in fact it’s, extremely close.
HH: Ok, so I mean —
HC: The whole [unclear] generation so.
HH: That’s, that’s, that’s incredible.
HC: But we’re all very close to each other but not sort of like in Jamaica.
HH: Yeah, so, so — but —
HC: Jamaica’s a very, Jamaica’s a very difficult place actually. It was a very difficult place to visit.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Because if you were slotted in to the tourist label, the inequalities were extremely difficult to face. So most of the visits that I’ve been since, since then they’ve all been all sort of basic research visits.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Yeah. To the, you know the University of Jamaica or to archives or, you know whatever.
HH: Yeah.
HC: We have done some family visits but not to the hot tourist spots. There’s a, there’s a sort of Jamaica run, you know eco place that we stay at in Portland but we keep very very, we keep a very big distance from the European run and US run tourist economies because basically they are just a gigantic sucking sound of money out of Jamaica.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HC: They’re all there tax free. They built these huge hotels tax free.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Various European countries and the US.
HH: Yeah.
HC: So it’s a very, you have to make sure that when you go you only stay in, in Jamaican run places.
HH: Yeah. So I mean, I imagine that, that, that many of your research trips to Jamaica were connected to your own exploration of your family history and roots in this incredible reflection that is in your book. Your latest book. I think it’s your latest. Have you published another one since? So I’m talking about, “Imperial Intimacies.”
HC: No. I’m working on it.
HH: So it’s about, “Imperial Intimacies,” that we, that we’re chatting here and you talked, you mentioned Portland there, so it seems an appropriate moment to raise that and the burning question I have is to what extent your father was aware of how close to his ancestors origins he really was when he was at Waddington.
HC: He wasn’t aware at all.
HH: I mean, I just find that, I find, I find the geographic connection completely overwhelming.
HC: So, my father used to tell me stories of how his grandmother every summer took him from Kingston over to the north coast to Portland, to a place called Swift River and everyone there was called Carby. So you grow up with these stories. You know, you grow up with the photographs. With all these sorts of things. As a child I don’t know that I made an awful lot of sense of it but in the National Archives at Kew it started to make sense. I actually did find the slave register for this particular Jamaican plantation run by a Carby. So, in 1815 actually the British government decided it was going to count every enslaved person in its entire empire. It actually instituted it in 1816 and then the first one is 1817 and this is all preparatory to emancipation that happened gradually between 1834 and 1838. So I imagined it was when I found this register of these enslaved people which is actually a very difficult and painful moment. I imagine that what I was going to be doing was to track from the people on this plantation through anyone else I could find in Swift River through all sorts of parish records which is actually extremely painstaking and difficult. I imagined I was going to track all the way up there to my father and that was, that was the street that I was following. But I did become increasingly interested in this person called Lilly Carby who actually ran the plantation. For a while I was trying to look for a woman because of the name Lilly which was a mistake. But after a lot of digging and a lot of time I actually tracked Lilly Carby to Coleby In Lincolnshire and to, you know these, these hand written parish records, Lincolnshire parish records and found the entire family. And what was bizarre about it actually, I realised that this was absolutely exactly the right family not just because of the Carby name and the Lilly name, but because everybody in Lilly Carby’s family in Coleby, he took all their names and he, he gave them to his enslaved quote unquote property, so there were these two sets of records of the same name and it took me a long time to get my head around that. Why he would do that. He also called the plantation Lincoln, and it was a coffee plantation. So, anyway, so then I, you know did a lot of research about Lincolnshire history to track his entire history, and to track the history, I came across this record in the Lincolnshire archives about how, you know Lincoln, Lincolnshire emptied out of young, of young men and I realised in fact what had happened of course it was actually all about the sort of the militia they established because they worried about fighting the French on the coasts and then in fact scooping everybody up into the British Army, the revolutionary, the Napoleonic wars, the huge shipping of all these people to, to Jamaica. So, you know I sort of went off on this huge tangent in terms of British military history and it took a while for the penny to drop actually that the story that my father used to tell me about RAF Waddington was that this is really the same place and as a navigator you know he was using the lights on the, you know that’s, that’s what they would use.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Flying back via [unclear]
HH: I mean it is extraordinary that I mean because Lilly Carby himself I mean, think goes to Jamaica in sort of 1788/89 you —
HC: With his cousins.
HH: With his cousins. And then you know he either gets a discharge for which there’s no record or he deserts. He sort of finds his way into ownership as you’ve traced so incredibly in your book. He finds his way in to the ownership of this plantation up on the North coast at Portland. He calls it Lincoln. He names these enslaved people after members of his family. He has three children. Two of them by a freed person of colour, woman of colour Mary Ivy, and one by an enslaved woman called Bridget which was his mother’s name. And that child is called Matthew and that is a direct descendant of yours and your father’s.
HC: Ok. No. Yeah, the mother wasn’t Bridget. Matthew actually, so Lilly Carby before becoming a plantation owner served on other plantations.
HH: Yeah. Ok.
HC: That’s the track. And so, the Matthew Carby was actually from another plantation.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Which was one of the sugar plantations. I mean those are, those are sort of three that I know of. But I mean —
HH: There might have been others.
HC: White men raped at will.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
HC: So who knows how many.
HH: Yeah. So they were the three you were able to trace.
HC: To trace. Yes. And the problem about military records, British military records is they keep meticulous records of officers but if you’re, if you’re not an officer its very very difficult to find records.
HH: Ok.
HC: So I found records of the cousins who returned to the UK because, through the Chelsea Pension Records.
HH: Ah huh.
HC: Because he qualified for a pension.
HH: Ok.
HC: So, but clearly that’s what happened. He either and you can look at the history of the people who deserted or were discharged because of illnesses. He could have been discharged because he was ill.
HH: Yeah. Ok. Yeah.
HC: But there was massive, I mean because the death rate.
HH: I know.
HC: In the West Indies was absolutely huge.
HH: Huge.
HC: The desertion rate was huge. And the discharge because of ill health was very big. So I mean, so it’s you know it’s, it’s speculation but it’s clearly, that’s clearly what happened and he must have, the unit he was part of went and was based around the other side of the island. I mean they were there. Yes. There was the revolutionary Napoleonic Wars but the British Army was primarily there to put down to stop rebellion and put down rebellions on, on the plantations.
HH: Yeah. To safeguard planter interests basically.
HC: Yeah. So, he met, he met planters. He went to work on sugar plantations there and then he started himself off. You know, I found the wool. I found land records and he was actually, purchased some land from one of the people he had originally been working for on their plantation. So it was, you know it was adjacent to one of the sugar plantations but it was a further up, you know in the hills and he started a coffee plantation and bought people.
HH: And, and, and the sort of detective work that you undertook to trace back is really just a remarkable story of its own.
HC: Well, it took a long time and this is the thing about my father never really knowing. So, you know, late in his eighties my father he had a number of, of illnesses including a sort of motor neurone disease but he also started to get sort of dementia. So by the time I was, and I would, I would visit him every time before I went came down to visit Coleby or do anything in the Lincolnshire Archives, but it was actually really sort of difficult and explain to him about these connections that I’d made. So I would try and start to talk about it and then he would talk about RAF Waddington. I mean, to the very end he could recite his RAF number and he would start to talk about it but he couldn’t really understand the connections I was, I was making. But it was, it was clear that it was the best decision I ever made to try and track the slave owner down.
HH: Yeah. I mean it is.
HC: It was clear that it was. I mean, it was an unbelievable amount of work and that’s why it did take so many years.
HH: Yeah.
HC: And my father was deteriorating during all those years so it was, it was tragic.
HH: I mean there is just something so incredible that, that he should end up his, this war service coming to the UK to serve the allied sort of, in the allied war effort and he was that close to his origins. There is something just so extraordinary about that and I know it’s to some extent —
HC: Well, these stories are connected by war.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
HC: Because the person who becomes the slave owner.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Goes out there because of war and the other reason for telling it is because I really wanted it to be about ordinary stories and ordinary people. You know people in, in Britain think that these stories about enslavement somehow only involved aristocrats.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Bu, you know, this there were ordinary white men all over the Caribbean.
HH: Yeah.
HC: Who became slave owners.
HH: Can I, I’m sorry to do this to you Hazel but I want to quote one sentence from your book which is just, you know it should cause us to stop and think a lot about our practice and I think it is causing us to stop and think a lot, “Links to colonial exploitation and oppression to Atlantic slavery and imperial wars are not the exception. They are, they are our quotidian past.”
HC: Yeah.
HH: And the thing about that statement is that why has it all been forgotten then?
HC: Indeed. That’s the question the book, you know, poses. This historical amnesia. I mean, if you think about it Lilly’s parents in Coleby, in Lincolnshire Bridget and William had grandchildren. Black grandchildren in Jamaica. As did many ordinary people in Britain but we don’t call them family stories do we? See, this is the point of the book, “The Imperial Intimacies.” These are extremely intimate entangled relationships, but somehow the history of the colonies are somehow seen as other. You know what I mean? That’s a completely separate history. So when black people were serving in Britain or were living in Britain were sort of like, ‘Well, where have you come from?’ As if there were actually no relationships between the metropole and the colonies. When I was, you know when I became politically active in the UK in my late teenage years and as a student you know we used to say, ‘We’re here because you were there.’ But the you were there part of the story is the sort of the sense of responsibility. The sense of how these histories are intricately tied to each other is the one that we have to recover. That’s the stories we have to recover. We’re not alien. We haven’t come from somewhere other or completely different. My father thought, you know, my father was raised as British. He had a British education. He went to [unclear] He wasn’t an other. He wasn’t an alien. So if we don’t, if we erase these histories we will never understand how closely tied we all are to each other.
HH: Hazel, you know that seems to be a very profound point to make and one on which perhaps we should conclude this interview because it has been, just so, such an incredible privilege to hear you recounting these stories and I know some of them remain painful but we are just so grateful that. That you’ve been able to do this for our Archive. Thank you so much.
HC: You’re very welcome.
HH: And I’ve stopped recording.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Hazel Carby
Creator
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Heather Hughes
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2021-03-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:21:41 Audio Recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACarbyHV210315-01
PCarbyHV2101
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Pending review
Coverage
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Second generation
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Jamaica
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Essen
New Brunswick--Moncton
New Brunswick
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1947
Description
An account of the resource
Hazel Carby discusses her father Carl's early life in Jamaica, his experiences training in Canada and serving as aircrew in the RAF, and how he and his family were treated in London in the post war period.
She also discusses her research into her family's history and the connections between the Carby family, Coleby in Lincolnshire and slavery in the Caribbean, for her book, Imperial Intimacies.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
African heritage
aircrew
bombing
demobilisation
navigator
perception of bombing war
RAF Waddington
recruitment
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/703/10103/ABeechingJB180118.1.mp3
47d4231ede11edc693eeebb6482fe40a
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Beeching, John Benjamin
J B Beeching
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Beeching (b. 1923, 1339821 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 169 and 627 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Beeching, JB
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: This is Thursday, 18th January 2018 and I am with Mr John Benjamin Beeching at his place of work, The Cawthron Institute, in Nelson, New Zealand. John was born 19 October 1923 in London, England and joined the RAF in August 1941, his service number 1339821, and as an aircrew pilot to be gained the nickname Curly. John’s flying career was from 1942 to 1946 and he flew more than twelve different aircraft types. John, thank you for inviting me to have a talk about your career today.
JB: I have to say [Indecipherable.]
GT: Great John. So how about you give me a bit of your history about a - where did you grow up and then why did you join the RAF and how, and so on, please.
JB: Well, needless to say I grew up in that time when, at the age of fifteen, sixteen, I was in the Blitz so I received bombing from both ends, [chuckle] not only receiving them but also delivered them! This was in 1939, when the war broke out, and at that stage I was working in an engineering workshop which axiomatically of course went from making arms and we were making bullet dies and things like that. After a year that got pretty boring and a good friend of mine, Billy Campbell said we’ve had enough of this, let’s go and join the Army and do some real war work. So we went to the Recruiting Office in Romford, which is also in Essex, and we had a very brief and cursory medical examination and a very dapper little sergeant said okay son, he said to Bill, we’ll tell you when we need you, and he said to me I’m sorry lad, your feet are flat for the Army, we can’t take you so go back to your engineering job, I’m sure you’ll be doing some useful war work. So, I thought no, rats to this and right across the alleyway there was the, you okay there? So I walked across this alleyway where the Air Force recruiting place was, and I said I’d like to join the RAF, and they said oh yes, what do you do son? I said well at the moment I’m an engineer, he said ah, that’s very good, we need engineers in the Air Force. He says don’t want to fly do you, with a very crafty look on his face. Now don’t forget this was 1941 when aircrew at a premium and we were losing lots, so I said yes I can, I’d love to do that, so he gave us another quick medical, he didn’t look at my feet in this particular case and he said we’ll let you know when we need you. So I think it was about a month later and I was sent to Weston Super Mare where we had a two day medical, a very, very strict medical and I was given my number, 1339821, and they said you are now in the Volunteer Reserve and will be called up in due course, which we were in actual fact, on April the 20th April 1942, which by a great coincidence, happened to be Hitler’s birthday. I was recruited at St Johns Wood where all aircrew were, Aircrew Receiving Centre, otherwise known as ACRC, and billeted in a very palatial hotel which was no longer palatial after we’d been in touch with it and we were there oh, a couple of weeks I suppose, and then sent off to a holding unit at Ludlow in Shropshire under canvas, which was a holiday, because they didn’t know what to do with us so we were building roads which went nowhere and all sorts of stuff. Anyway I think it was, must have been the spring of 1942, late spring, maybe June, I went to my Initial Training Wing at Stratford upon Avon, lovely place, where we did our square bashing at the front of the new Shakespeare Theatre there, which is a lovely place. We used to go punting on the Avon in the evening, it was really nice. And at the end of our ITW we did a ten hour grading course on Tiger Moths and I didn’t know how I’d come out of that one because I didn’t think I’d do too well, but apparently they must have thought it was sufficient to carry me on to, carry on training as a pilot. And from there we were given a couple of weeks’ leave and then from our leave we went to the massive [emphasis] holding camp at Heaton Park in Manchester, where all crew went, I think there were about thirty odd thousand went there, and some went to Southern Rhodesia to train as pilots and navigators and the rest of us went to Canada. And we went to Canada in December 1942, which was a bad year for u-boats, we were in a large liner called the Andes, which has been here to New Zealand a couple of times during the war, and we were way up among the icebergs we went, [swishing sound effect] due north for a couple of days I think, away from submarines or whatever, [cough] and we landed at Halifax, Nova Scotia on Christmas Day 1942. On the way to Monckton in this massive train, in the snow, we hit a car on the level crossing with seven Mounties in it and killed the lot. They was splattered all over, the blood, it was blood and guts all over the place: it was a lovely introduction to Canada. Anyway we went to Monckton, we weren’t there very long and then we were sent to the Prairies. I went to a place called Virden, Manitoba, Number 19 EFTS, and where we did our training on winter-clad Tiger Moths. In other words they were fitted with skis and a canopy and a very rudimentary heater which didn’t work very well, and did sixty hours on those although that was interrupted in my case because I had a punctured ear drum flying with a cold, and spent the whole month in hospital. [Cough] And at the end of that, that would be the spring of 1943 I suppose, I went to my Service Flying Training School at Brandon, Manitoba, which was east of Virden, about eighty miles down the road I suppose, and continued my training on Cessna Bobcats, which the Canadians called Cranes, well they were otherwise AT12a’s and finally wound up getting my wings in August 1943, it must have been. And [telephone] then from Brandon, sporting our pilot’s wings, which made us all as happy as Larry and very proud of course, and promoted to sergeant in my case, some were commissioned but they obviously divined that I wasn’t going to make very good officer material, which was probably quite the case, but I never was anyway, and went back to Monckton. We were there very briefly, and then back across the Atlantic, this time on the Queen Elizabeth! Which wasn’t exactly a luxury cruise because there was twenty one thousand others on board on the same sailing! Which is a lot of people, in fact it was half the population of Nelson, in numbers. And it only took us what, bit under five days to cross the Atlantic. Wound back up at Gourock and then back and then all the aircrew that went back from Canada, they went to Harrogate in Yorkshire, where we went for a selection board and they said John Beeching you are, been selected to be an elementary flying instructor. I thought oh my god, that’s the last thing on this earth I wanted to be, you know! So I had nothing to argue with of course, so we were pushed to Marshalls Flying Field in Cambridge, I forget the number of the Flying School it was, but I think it was number four I think. I hated it, absolutely, I’ve got to tell you, hate Tiger Moths, I still hate the rotten things. They were cold and draughty, I didn’t like aerobatics very much anyway, so. Anyway, short of becoming a real dyed in the wool malingerer, [laugh] I managed to get myself thrown off and they said don’t you tell anybody, you know, that you’ve been scrubbed off of an instructor’s course! Blah, blah, blah. And I got a below average rating for and so this is very close to Christmas 1943 and I got successfully scrubbed off this awful, awful instructor’s course. Back to Harrogate [cough] spent a few weeks there, had nothing to do with us for a while, so they sent us on these strange assault courses and so forth, and they made a mistake of issuing us with thunderflashes, which we all secreted and used to put under people’s beds and things, which was all good fun. Don’t forget we were only what, nineteen, twenty years old, so we were only kids anyway, so it was a small part of it. And another selection board and they said well, we’ve noticed that your night vision is acceptable so you’ll be selected for night fighter pilot training so thought that’s more my thing, [cough] so from there I spent about, oh, a month I think, at the, at Cranwell which in peacetime is an Officers’ Training College, but in the wartime it was just another flying field. And now I was introduced to the Blenheim I, which was a lovely old aeroplane to fly, very safe, very easy, and after an introduction on those I went to Spittalgate at Grantham, which was an advanced flying unit where we flew Blenheim Is and Ansons and Oxfords. Flew Ansons and Oxfords on beam approach training, things like that, so we did quite a few hours there. Following which, we went to Cranfield and did a conversion course from Blenheims via the Bristol Beaufort which is a terrible, terrible aeroplane cause the ones we had were the early ones with Bristol Pegasus engines. Don’t know if they were, but mostly underpowered, terrible aeroplanes, but we only had to do ten hours on those and then they graduated us on to Beaufighters which were lovely aeroplanes, I loved the Beaufighters, you know. They’ve got me sitting in the front with these two enormous great Hercules engines, one on either side with about sixteen hundred horsepower each side, and they were lovely and there I crewed up with my navigator, Fred Herbert, who flew with me for the next few years. He was the only navigator I had [cough] and it got so he refused to fly with anybody else. Whether that’s a recommendation or not, I don’t know, but that’s the way it was. If I went sick he went sick [laugh] and we flew together right through there and then at Cranfield we spent a fair bit of time at the satellite field which was a place called Twinwoods Farm, which received notoriety because it was where Glen Miller took off from and Fred and I were the last people to ever see Glen Miller alive. We saw him climb into that Norseman, in December 1943 and, no ’44, yeah, ’44, yeah, December 1944 and he vanished and was never seen again. He had a civilian pilot and there’s been all kinds of speculation and stories of what might have happened to Glen Miller, but nobody ever really knows about that. So he joins just another one of the thousands that we lost in the North Sea. So from there we went back to Cranfield and then we were given leave and I was going to enjoy leave over Christmas, but we got called to join 169 Squadron at Great Massingham in December and that’s where I started my operational flying, from there, on Bomber Support with 100 Group, which is 100 Group Bomber Command.
GT: And your aircraft type for there was?
JB: Hey?
GT: And your aircraft type, that you moved to, from the Beaufighter to?
JB: Oh to the Mossie, yes. Yes well my transit to the Mosquito was pretty quick, I had thirty five minutes dual on the Mosquito. That was all. I kid you, didn’t even solo the same day because the weather closed in and it was another day and a half before I got my hands on a Mosquito to fly, so, and we, they only had two Mark III dual Mosquitos there at Cranfield, so nobody got much dual anyway. But anyway, they were, after a Beaufighter I found an easier plane to fly and had to watch some of the swinging on take off and landing that’s all, like all tailwheel aircraft are, but okay, and so I flew, like I say, in my log book I’ve got the serial numbers of fifty seven different Mossies and I never scrapped one, so that’s something of a record. [Cough]
GT: It is. You brought them all home, that was the main.
JB: Yes, and anyway, at the end of the war ended up with sixteen operations over Germany and at the end of the war we thought oh well, we’ll have a nice rest now and they said no you’re not, you’re going to Okinawa. And so they transferred us from there to, being Mosquito people, to Woodhall Spa, 627 Squadron, where 617 [emphasis] Squadron was stationed at that time because the old Dambuster Lancasters was still parked there, at Woodhall Spa. Did you ever Woodhall Spa? And the Bell pub, you know and er, you know the old Bell there, lovely place.
GT: So, can we just, go back John, for you, much better about your sorties and your operations you did. What’s the targets, what did they give you as a role to do?
JB: We were very individual, we didn’t take off, all together, we were classified as bomber support, and it was bomber support, we’d normally take off after [emphasis] the bomber stream left, cause we were much, we were a hundred miles an hour faster than Lancasters, and our intention and purpose was to get to the target before them and keep and sweep the sky clear of German nightfighters really, which was very successful. The Germans were absolutely terrified of us because we had the legs on them and we had the radar on them so, and you know, we were really good. But 100 Group, they were loaded up with electronic gear, mainly to jam German transmissions, that’s, you know, German transmissions, which they did and if you read that book, ‘100 Group - the Birth of Electronic Warfare’, you’ll read, it’s really worthwhile, and it takes you through that much more precisely than I could ever do anyway, but the, they had the main, apart from the Mosquitos that were in about five different stations they had Halifaxes, and 100 Group, and B17s. Two of the B17 crew people they lived right here in Nelson, both dead now, bless ‘em, just died of old age. Though Doug was a prisoner of war, he did a whole tour then was shot down on his second tour. He was a gunner, tail gunner and he um, survived the war and lived here until about three years ago, when he died.
GT: So the Mosquitos you were flying and your operational sorties, what armament did you have?
JB: All right, the Mosquitos we had, initially they were converted Mark Vis with Mark IV radar in the nose, like a sort of spearhead, you might have seen pictures of them, and then we graduated to Mark 10s, was British designed, American built and we had a big bulbous nose on the Mosquitos - remember those - with the scanner, about the size of that fan over there I suppose, and they was really good because pick up aircraft twenty miles away, it was really superb radar probably as good as they’ve got today almost, I would say.
GT: So what guns did you have?
JB: We had, well we didn’t have the machine guns because we had the radar in the nose, but we had four 20 millimetre cannon, they could do an awful lot of damage, they would demolish a house you know, [laugh] they were big guns, twenty millimetre.
GT: In the nose or [indecipherable]
JB: Underneath. If you look at a picture of a Mosquito, you’ll see that, you know, they were clear of the propellors so they didn’t have to re-synchronise so when you fired them they all started together, then they’d all sort of break up the noise and swing the nose and plane about, it was quite a thing: but they’re good things.
GT: How many rounds a gun did you have?
JB: I think we carried about, I think we carried about four hundred rounds altogether, about a hundred rounds a gun, I think.
GT: And you knew how long you had, I suppose.
JB: I think the rate of fire was about nine hundred and something rounds a minute, so it wasn’t a very long burst. We never fired on Dutch people, we never had the chance to be quite honest with you, we used to strafe people on bicycles.
GT: So your sorties, you were strafing more than you were trying to shoot down aircraft?
JB: Oh no, we did low levels as well as the high stuff, we’d fly anywhere from thirty thousand feet right down to ground level almost, you know. And of course we also did a lot of spoof raiding which carried target indicators, and we’d drop those at a place where the raid wasn’t going to be, but it was, the idea was to get the Germans to think that’s where the main raid was going to be, so we dropped couple of tons of target indicators to get the Germans going and of course the main stream would turn off and go somewhere else, which was all part and parcel of the deceit, you know.
GT: Did you use Window at all?
JB: We didn’t. 100 Group, thousands of tons, the Liberator would carry about seven ton of the stuff., you know, they’d chuck it out in great bundles which was good , it certainly dumbfounded the Germans much of the time, although towards the end of the war they did sort of overcome it to some extent, [lighter noise] they did overcome it to a great extent, but it worked good and then we had, then they used, ringer operators, you know, to come up cause we were using operators who could speak German giving phoney instructions to German nightfighters. Course but they, the German nightfighters were active right till the end of the war. In March I think it was, ‘45, the Germans did a big night raid on England, in East Anglia, and it was called Operation Gisela and they clobbered quite a few of our blokes, some of our blokes were killed, right on the circuit, you know, so it was quite, so they didn’t give up. As you know, the Germans fought almost to the last day.
GT: So their fighters were a mixture of what, Messerschmitt 210s, 410s, Junkers.
JB: Operation Gisela they had were Me109s and Fw190s, which apparently were a difficult aeroplane to fly, and even harder to fly at night and their accident rate was much, was, better than ours, they killed themselves better than we could, and they had, of course, towards, right near the end they had these wonderful Henschel night fighters and stuff which was really, really good and also Messerschmitt 262s, which they used as night fighters and in fact the Me262s squadrons were shooting down Mosquitos, they shot down about thirty all together, so they were quite active right up to the few last days of the war.
GT: So did you know that when you were flying?
JB: No. Didn’t even know of the existence of an Me262 until after the war.
GT: You never saw one flash by and whatnot?
JB: Oh no, never saw. No, no.
GT: So they never gave you that kind of intel?
JB: Whatever intelligence I’ve been, by and large, we were kept right up with stuff like Me163s and that sort of thing that shot straight up in the air. But no, they never mentioned Me262s, whether they were keeping it from us on purpose, I’ve got no idea, but I don’t recall ever being told about the Me262, or it would certainly have stuck in my memory. I would think, anyway.
GT: So did you have the chance of using your guns in an aerial battle at all?
JB: No, only on ground stuff, factories and so forth on bright moonlight nights.
GT: I’m interested that Mosquito-wise, okay, you had the weaponry, did you actually do any training to do aerial combat as opposed to strafing?
JB: Oh yes. Yes, we did air to air gunnery. We had a range over the Wash, and they had these yellow painted Martinets on the squadron. I remember that because landed one on a foggy morning, he landed and floated into the side of the hangar. He wasn’t killed but the man in the hangar was. So that’s how I remember how we were, how the target was, load carrying [indecipherable]. We didn’t have enough practice on air to air shooting, or the ground shooting really for that matter.
GT: Did you shoot the banner at all? Did you get shots on?
JB: Oh yes, I good quite good at it, but it was, my percentage was very good.
GT: And you had a high percentage, sorry, did you say?
JB: Yeah, I was good at it, quite good. It was good fun. Course you had to turn, you know, deflection was the thing of course, that was the thing with, most of the time everybody wanted to get right behind somebody, up the bum didn’t they, and shoot them, which is what happened at night, because we could get right in, close, with our radar and we could see our prey, quarry, invariably a Lancaster or something, and they could never see us, but they were looking down against the dark ground, we were looking up, we could see the stars and we could see their blur exhaust stumps all glowing in the dark and you think if we’d been Germans. Of course the Germans had the Shräge musik, you know, the upfiring cannons, which we never knew about, and that was very, very bad news, because we lost a lot of Lancasters solely because of Shräge musik. And they, as I say, that, we often, we get so, we used to do what was, I used to like it actually, it was called night fighter affiliation and they’d take a Halifax off from Swanton Morley or somewhere and we’d meet them over Norfolk somewhere and go do runs on them to let the gunners see and often we’d get from here to that cross just about and they still hadn’t seen us. Cause I remember one night we got up close behind this Halifax and he was sitting there waiting, waiting for it to go into a corkscrew and he called up, he says hello Kaolin 26, he said, I think we’ve lost you so I turned on the landing lights from about fifty yards behind him! I bet that gunner still wakes up at night, two million candle power! [Laughter] So that was things we used to do, but it just meant how vulnerable our blokes were, cause we really were close and he knew that we were coming, and he still didn’t see us at all. So there we are.
GT: That’s something. Were your Mosquitos also able to carry bombs at all, and rockets?
JB: Yes.
GT: So you always took off with bombs and rockets?
JB: Not always, but sometimes. Some duty, if we wanted to do a spoof with bombs, we carried two five hundred pound bombs, or target indicators, one or the other. We didn’t carry anything big till we got to Woodhall Spa when we carried, when we had the Mosquito, the Mark IVs [indecipherable] the pregnant tadpole, you know, d’you see pictures of those? They would carry the four thousand pound bombs, but we weren’t allowed to, apparently the Mossies we [emphasis] had weren’t made to carry, although we had the bulging bomb bays, they couldn’t carry the four thousand pound bomb. To me, I don’t know why, we had a notice up in the cockpit: ‘Even PO Prune would not carry a four thousand bomb in this aircraft’. So whatever the reason was I never found out.
GT: I don’t expect the airframe could hold it. So something that’s always been touted was that the use of the Mosquito to bomb Berlin. Now if, for instance, the RAF managed to only produce Mosquitos instead of their four engined bombers, would they have done the business? What’s your position on that?
JB: Oh yes, absolutely. I mean don’t forget the Americans, those piddling little bombs they carried, they were only five hundred pound bombs: they were next to useless. I mean until they carried big bombs, those five hundred pound bombs, they just dug little holes in the ground. Incendiaries were the thing of course. What we carried was a great big blast bomb, blow a lot of buildings down then set fire to ‘em, and that was the point, after all, what we were trying to do was finish the war, you know, and Mosquito carrying two ton bomb, they would make two trips in a night. It was only what, about two hours to Berlin, two hours back, four hours, refuel, another bomb and go away again, you know, another crew and so that was good. There was only two men in a Mosquito, there was ten men in a B17, and they both carried the same bomb load.
GT: So, do you think perhaps that Bomber Command could have changed their philosophy to go to?
JB: I do now [emphasis]. Of course you didn’t know at the time.
GT: May have been better to switch strategies.
JB: We argued about what Bomber Command did and how valuable it was, it’s never going to be resolved. Harris said you could finish the war with bombers, but you couldn’t, without men on the ground, I think that was proved in the war anyway.
GT: Set fire.
JB: We certainly aided towards the quickness of it, with all of the stuff we did to railways and transport and goodness knows what we done. We were allowed, after the war, to fly over Germany and have a look and see what was done; it was awful, it really was, war. I don’t know, the whole thing was pretty bad I suppose, when you think about it. But it was, to me it was pretty distressing to see that, acres, square miles all these houses just the walls standing, you know, all scurrying about like ants, clearing up the mess, you know. Terrible, absolutely terrible. Your whole thinking was in those days, like I say, obviously in London during the Blitz I saw houses demolished then, so getting a bit of own back didn’t seem to be helping a lot. Which it wasn’t.
GT: It was the means of surviving and shortening the thing.
JB: Yes. Anyway come what may, the war’s end, they said you’re going, when we went there, we were going to go to Okinawa, on the Tiger Force. What I didn’t realise that the Americans didn’t really want us there because they had enormous [emphasis] Air Force on Okinawa. It was really [emphasis] enormous. They had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of B29s and Mustangs by the hundreds and they didn’t want the RAF there at all. It was their war and they wanted to keep it. Anyway, they dropped the atomic bomb so we didn’t go. So we thought ah! Finished! We’ve finished our flying! They said no you’re not, you’re going instructing, you’re going now and I was instructing on blind landing approach for the next twelve months almost. On Oxfords, on a mobile flight, 1552 BABS Flight: Beam BABS Beam Approach Beacon System. They evolved a very efficient and cheap beam landing system called BABS which used Eureka Rebecca system, beacon and homing and beacons and they just, yes, instead of killing everybody. Yes. [interference] Well BABS, it was, we had this mobile flight, of four Oxfords, which was very handy, cause they were all over England and we went to, we were teaching Transport Command pilots on how to land, on bad weather landings and as I say, it was a very efficient system, it just involved a little pickup Austin with a kind of shed on the back, and they ran it two little metal grooves at the end of the runway and shot it up and we could pick up the signal. Because, why we were chosen that job, it was the ideal job suited for night fighter crews because the navigator was at the back twiddling his knobs and he could tell you left, left, right, right, whatever, and that worked fine and so we were sort of involved with that for nearly twelve months, and we flew every day apart from bad wind. That’s how good it was. So fog didn’t stop us at all, in fact it took us longer to taxi out to find the runway than it did to fly and it was really that good. It was excellent, I thought, we had no shaky dos there. Like I say I flew nearly a thousand hours and never had an accident. The only thing ever went wrong was on an old Blenheim I, when one wheel wouldn’t come down, had to land on one wheel, but that wasn’t too bad, pretty harmless.
GT: And then you didn’t catch the [indecipherable].
JB: No, no. They said land on the grass, don’t land on the runway, you’ll score it up something, it was on Somerfield Track anyway, and landed on one wheel on two points, so one wheel and the wings slowly dropped down and then I was looking at the propeller with the ends all curled up, the wing had a [indecipherable] great big slow ground loop and just stopped and that was it. Plane was flying two days later, on the flat. That was about the only bad thing ever happened.
GT: So what aircraft were you doing all of this BABS training in?
JB: Oxfords. Which they, they were a good aeroplane for a trainer I think, ideal anyway. But Ansons were probably easier to fly, was Ansons. The queen of the sky as far as I was concerned. You could do no wrong in an Anson. They were just delightful.
GT: You and Fred [indecipherable] were friends with the gentleman who’s created the only Anson I still flying in the world.
JB: Oh, I don’t say I’m a friend, but I’ve spoken to him, in fact I loaned him my Anson pilots’ notes, I’ve still got them at home by the way, my pilots notes for the Anson. But I’ve got pilots notes on most of the aeroplanes I flew, Beaufighters, Mosquitos, even got one for Lancaster. You know, you collect these things and keep them. Seventy years later.
GT: Fair. So once you’d done your instructing piece there for these transport pilots, what happened to you then?
JB: Oh that was, I got out in about August 1946 I think.
GT: Did you want to go? Did you need to go?
JB: Yes, I’d had enough. Yeah, I thought, well, I was a mug in a way, I should have stayed I suppose, you know, the Air Force was no longer like it was during the war, you know. During the week you do what you like [cough], dress how you like, don’t care [indecipherable] the week, but they don’t like that in peacetime and so I wasn’t sorry to get out.
GT: Did you commission?
JB: No.
GT: So what did you retire as, rank-wise?
JB: Warrant Officer. Which was a good rank. Pay was the same as a Flight Lieutenant, without the mess fees, you know. You only paid six shillings a month, they were paying about six pounds a month, so that was good.
GT: So what was the last station you served at? Can you?
JB: Um, Fort Sutton. No, Melbourne, East Yorkshire. Either Melbourne or Fort Sutton – they’re both in East Yorkshire, I’m not sure which one, but I think it must have been Melbourne we went from there to discharge Wembley. They gave us a suit and money.
GT: What was your last Mosquito trips then? When was that?
JB: Well that was, actually the last one the squadron flew on I was on leave, so I didn’t go and that was the last raid of the war full stop. It was on May the 7th it was, and that was on Kiel and two of our blokes were shot down on that one. My mate Doug Waite and his navigator, Doug’s still alive. He lives in Somerset. There’s only him and another chap in Cromer, they were the last two surviving pilots for that squadron, who I know, are still alive, I don’t think there’s any others. And that was my last trip must been, what, March, April, be April 1945 I suppose. Can’t even remember where it was. The longest trip we made was on [indecipherable] which was six hours and ten minutes which is a long time. We carried a lot of fuel. We carried seven hundred and sixteen gallons, which is what, about three thousand litres.
GT: So what’s the total flying time in a Mosquito?
JB: Well, we carried seven hundred and sixteen gallons, and each Merlin burns a gallon a minute, so that goes seven hours and I say, we had six hours and ten minutes and we still didn’t run short of fuel. They were good on fuel, you had to be stupid run out of gas. We carried one hundred gallon drop tanks.
GT: Your concentration for that long in a very cold aircraft?
JB: Oh no! They weren’t, they were never cold. The Mosquito was made of wood and were well insulated cause they were made of wood, and had a nice heater and was quite comfortable. I flew in a battledress, I never flew in a flying suit, nor did Fred, it was really good. No, no there was no problem there, but it was, often you were flying in cloud for four or five hours and that was very taxing because you got this awful effect where you thought you were flying straight and level but in fact you were turning.
GT: So your navigator, where did he sit? Next to you or down below?
JB: Sat in the Beaufighter behind, in the Mosquito, to the side.
GT: And he was doing all of your navigating through the scopes?
JB: No, no, did that on his knee on the back of an envelope [laughter], well he had all this radar gear in front of him which sort of eased out, he had no room, had this great big visor like this, and used to go to sleep in there and stuff, I knew when he was going to sleep, I could hear his breathing getting slower. But I didn’t mind, I could find my way home all right, you know. We had very good navigational aid - Gee, which was excellent, Gee was really good and we had a very good VHS system and they would home you from England, if you were high enough, they would give you a course for home right from the UK, it was a piece of cake. Navigation was never a problem for us. Never.
GT: Thousands of aircraft in the air at once, that’s phenomenal to keep you all on track!
JB: Yes, it was good. You know, when you think the sheer logistics of that was absolutely mind-boggling, you know.
GT: And Fred was saying to you left, right, left, right, or was he giving a heading?
JB: No, no, he was just saying alter course to oh nine two, make three hundred on the way home, you know, and there was no problem, because had a nice big sort of compass thing, you know, electric gyro. No we never had any, the only time we did have a couple of, I remember we, coming back from Germany and we come over this, we come across the land and I said to Fred where’s that, and he said oh, that’ll be the East Anglian coast and all of a sudden we were over the sea again, I said that must be the fastest crossing of England you’ve ever seen. In in actual fact, it was the strong wind, it was the Friesian Islands, in Holland, so it took us another half an hour to get across there, you know. I said we’re lost! He said we’re not lost, he says, I’m just a little uncertain of our whereabouts. [Chuckle] So I said in that case, I said how high is Ben Nevis. He says four thousand four hundred feet, I said then we’ll fly at five thousand four hundred feet. Which I did. Flying into the high ground was not difficult being in the UK. The Mossie was pretty fast, and it would get lost pretty fast too [indecipherable].
GT: That was an achievement getting every one of your Mosquito aircraft back without scratching one. Pretty awesome achievement. So when did you last see Fred, when you?
JB: Ah well Fred, when, after the war, I went back to Canada. I lived there seven years actually. Fred followed me, but he joined the RCMP, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and rose to the rank of sergeant, and actually was Pierre Trudeau’s chauffeur for about three years, and we lost track of each other then and in actual fact we, Wendy and I, my wife, we have visited Fred a couple of times, in Canada, but he died about four years ago now. That was the last I saw of dear old Fred. He was from South Shields, he was, up in Newcastle, you know. He was two weeks older than me. His birthday was on October 5th.
GT: It was pretty awesome for you to team up with somebody that you trusted and trusted his life with you too. So once you’d done some work in Canada, how come you’ve ended up in New Zealand after all this time?
JB: Well, I was a keen motorcycle man, I was, incidentally that’s my dad there in that picture, believe it or not, and yeah, I went back to Canada, and there for seven years and I was a very keen motorcyclist and I was the national organiser for the Vincent Owners Club. You’ve heard of the Vincent, motor bike, I was the national organiser for the Vincent Owners Club for the whole of the United States and Canada. Towards the end of that time this chap Oscar van Dogen wrote to me from New Zealand, he said he wanted make a, do a working holiday in Canada, could I give him somebody to write to? I said yeah, write to me, and we corresponded with each other for the next sixty years! And he died about two years ago. [Laugh] So if you want the stories, I’ve got them, man!
GT: And that’s what you did when you come to New Zealand?
JB: Ah, when I came to New Zealand, this was in 1953, I landed the same day as the Queen did, on Christmas 1953. She was on the Gothic, I was on the Wanganella from Australia, and then, there was a dearth of people, of tradesmen particularly in New Zealand, you could do anything you liked and work where you liked, so I got this job in engineering place in Christchurch, A. R. Harris and they made washing machines, the Simplicity washing machines, and I worked there for a couple of years and then I got sick of that and went and got a job with the government. I was a weights and measures inspector, which was another little escapade you see.
GT: Whereabouts was that? In Wellington?
JB: No. In Christchurch. I was transferred to Wellington and then from Wellington I was transferred to Nelson, and from Nelson they was going to transfer me to Auckland and I said I don’t want to go to Auckland and they said you’ve got to go to Auckland and I said no I don’t – I resign! So I did and that was in, what, 1960 something, so I went to an engineering place in, down at Port Nelson, and I was there for sixteen years. So, one thing and another.
GT: Now you’re, there’s been in Nelson, New Zealand there, a very strong on Bomber Command group of people that used to get together.
JB: We had about twenty here when I first started with the local branch of the New Zealand Bomber Command Association, and we’ve got what three or four or something: natural attrition shall we call it.
GT: And only a matter of months ago, your group, you’ve decided just to have your last lunch together, and there’s been a bit of publicity about that.
JB: Yes. [indecipherable]
GT: Which is, I think really across the country, many Brevet Clubs are down to several chaps only.
JB: Yeah, well I fell out, we have no Brevet Club. We did have one and it closed and people joined the Christchurch one, but I fell out with the Brevet Club in Christchurch. Well we, I’m the patron of the local RSA Branch and we, also we have a Trust Fund and we also give the cadets a thousand bucks or two thousand dollars a year each, all the cadet units, and Christchurch are sitting on nearly a million dollars and they didn’t dispense any money to the cadet units at all, so I wrote and said you know, get off your backsides and give them some money and they came back all guns loaded - don’t you tell us how to spend our money blah, blah, blah! So I said stuff that and gave it away.
GT: Yeah, so.
JB: I don’t know, are they active? Did they have a Bomber Command Association in Christchurch? I don’t recall any of them going to the unveiling at Green Park.
GT: It’s the National Bomber Command Centre that’s based, sorry Association based out of Auckland and there is barely five Brevet Bomber Command chaps in Christchurch left, so.
JB: No Association as such.
GT: No, they’re part of the national, New Zealand one. They do have a Brevet Club however, that’s out at Wigram air base.
JB: I know they do. But I don’t belong to it. I resigned.
GT: No. It’s very small now.
JB: Well I hope they doing something useful with their money cause that really got up my snorter that did. Really did. I thought well what they going to do with all that money? Cause they wound up with about half a million and they had about a hundred and seventy members I think, and I thought well, for goodness’ sake, you know, put it to some use, where it’s going to do some good, what better use than the cadet units, you know, I thought. That was my thinking. [indecipherable]
GT: Now, before, recently, well 2012 I guess, where the Bomber Command Memorial in London there was something that for us, the New Zealand Bomber Command Association, were planning on moving everybody over there that could go, but the New Zealand took it away from us and planned their own trip and took their own thirty odd gentlemen that they deemed could go and they looked after them very well and their decision was only New Zealanders could go.
JB: We stayed in the same hotel.
GT: And then I understand that there were several of you RAF chaps that emigrated here that were.
JB: I was the only RAF chap on that particular trip.
GT: So you managed to get over there though.
JB: Oh well, the lovely people of Nelson, they raised twenty two thousand dollars. G J Gardner gave us ten grand, towards it. There were people all over the world sent money, so we said my wife Wendy could go too So Wendy and I went, with Air New Zealand stayed at the Acorn Hotel, at the, in London, in the same hotel as the people there, having said that.
GT: I helped a little bit with the organisation for 75 Squadron sort of thing, the chaps, and I was in the Green Park at the back. So I understand you managed to get a seat at the front!
JB: Wasn’t quite at the front, well was about two rows back. I didn’t quite shake hands with Queenie, but gave her the nod, you know.
GT: Definitely.
JB: Got quite, took a lot of pictures, wonderful pictures of the occasion.
GT: Fascinating day. My RAF colleague and I were at the pub and waited till about seven pm, then we went down to the Memorial after they’d had opening and we had throngs of people, cause we were in uniform, asking.
JB: We went to that pub called The Three Tuns, was just down the road, a really nice pub, people there. Lovely hotel, the breakfasts were marvellous!
GT: I’m pleased you got to go over there to see that because many had not that opportunity from New Zealand.
JB: Definity a must to see, gorgeous place for sure.
GT: For sure, and all credit to those folk who organised and got that there and to look up at the statues of the chaps.
JB: That, well to me it’s a shame that the people who actually cast those never got any credit at all. It should have said where that was, where the foundry was or something, because it’s some of the finest casting I’ve ever seen in my life: everything was perfect. It was really, really good. I thought well, what a shame, they’ve given the name of the bloke who designed it but they didn’t give any credit to the people who actually made it, you know. Anyway.
GT: You, on this recording have now just given them the kudos.
JB: Well I reckon, well they needed, they should get some kudos, because it’s so, there was things on that which people would never pick up. For example, I noticed in the, down the flying boot of one of the gunners was the toggle from the cord for cocking a Browning and I bet very few people would see that, you know, the wooden handle with the loop on the end for pulling back the breech, you know. I thought I wonder how many people will spot that? So whoever did it was very, very good on the design.
GT: I understand that they, each individual airman of that trade, or job, they had veterans model. Marvellous. That’s great to hear. Thank you very much for that.
JB: No, I was absolutely chuffed with that.
GT: Now I also note that you have been in some way been involved, or been able to see at least, the Mosquitos that have been created in here New Zealand for flying.
JB: Yes, I have. I’ve been close to them but unfortunately I thought they might have given me a trip round the circuit or something, but no luck, maybe the next one anyway. I think I’ve earned it, but they didn’t, wouldn’t ended up, wouldn’t say John you can sit in the right hand seat and we’ll give you a turn, no. Least they’d have done, but it wasn’t, they, oh we’ve got insurance problems, we can’t do this and can’t, but I notice that people like um, what’s his name, the 617 bloke who was here, his granddaughter worked the airport before, they gave him a ride in one of those.
GT: Les Munro. That is special.
JB: Yes, Les Munro. He got a ride in one, I didn’t. Anyway. A lot of the blokes, we, there’s a picture over there in my little corner there, all the blokes who’d flown the Mossie and supposedly people who’d flew Mosquitos and a lot of them never did fly Mosquitos: they were Lancaster people. Which a lot of them were 75 Squadron people and 75 Squadron didn’t have any Lancs, have any Mosquitos, so I know that they were sort of just getting in on the action.
GT: However, 75 Squadron RNZAF [emphasis] did fly Mosquitos from 1947 to 53 at Ohakea. That might have come from, I think -
JB: Oh yeah, they were talking about Second World War veterans here, so they couldn’t have done. Anyway.
GT: Well I think they, a lot of them did fly Lancasters World War Two and post war, when New Zealand then was given 75 number plate and then we, they flew seventy five Mosquitos from England to New Zealand, and I think those guys went on to carry on flying those then. So that’s might have been where it was.
JB: Anyway, doesn’t matter now.
GT: It’s a huge thing, only a couple left out of those whole seventy, they cut them up. But look John. Just one last little thing then. Where are we now? You’ve obviously got a morning job, and it’s now roughly approaching 1pm in the afternoon so I’ve intruded on your day, but it’s been fascinating talking to you, but please tell a little about where we are and what this Institute does, because it’s a very important job that New Zealand does.
JB: Well, the reason we’re here is many years ago, when they shipped wood to export to Japan, there was a team of all oldies that we used to do these eight hour shifts because we did a quality test every fifteen minutes when they were loading the ship, and they had to have people who didn’t rely on a full time job, we were called when we were needed, which was very good and when we had a midnight till eight, the morning, or no, I think it was eleven till seven and seven till three I think, and this carried on until the port got smaller cause the ships got bigger and they couldn’t load ships and also the MDF plants opened up in Richmond, so they didn’t need to send it away from Nelson any more, it could all be done from other places and they found out that old JB was still handy with his fingers, so can you fix this John, yes I can and so thirty years ago and I’ve been here ever since, [indecipherable] fixing things and I like them and they like me, you know, and it’s good, it's been lovely and that’s how I came to be with Cawthron Institute. Not because of my scientific knowledge I might tell you!
GT: So what do they specifically look after and look out for here? What is their main role?
JB: Well, they do scientific research of any kind. They test food, they do a lot of marine work here, there’s, you know, if you look at the history of the Cawthron in recent years you’ll see a lot of it’s tied up in marine work: fresh water, salt water, mussels, we do all the salmon testing, king salmon, you know, make sure there’s not too much mercury in the fish and goodness knows what, and all this sort of stuff. They do a lot of pure research as well, as I told [indecipherable] they inspect all the spats for mussels, so by and large I think it’s a good place. They’ve got the most, we’ve got the most diverse number of people you’ve ever seen. We’ve got Germans, we’ve got French, we’ve got Russians, we’ve got Chinese, we’ve got Japanese, we’ve got Lithuanians, we’ve got French, we’ve got Dutchmen, we’ve got Englishmen, everybody [emphasis] here and everybody gets on. It’s a wonderful place, the Cawthron, it really is.
GT: And you’re the go-to fix-it man of the building.
JB: Yes. Mr Fix-it, that’s me!
GT: Mr Fixit. And you are how old now?
JB: Be ninety five in October.
GT: There you go! There’s hope for all of us to know that we can get a great old age and still be working.
JB: I don’t know! I hope you sided going in the lift!
GT: Well John, it’s been such a pleasure to first meet you, but second to talk to you today because the International Bomber Command Centre, I know, is looking for the beautiful stories of you men that made some huge sacrifices for us, some the ultimate, and yourself, obviously, you fought for our freedom and I thank you very much for that and I think that we’ve kind of come to it.
JB: I suppose it’ll be okay. I didn’t tell you too much about my flying career when I think about it, you know.
GT: I hope you’ve written a book. [Laugh]
JB: It’s okay, whatever keeps them happy.
GT: I’ve been in worse. Thank you sir, and I certainly appreciate your time with me today and is there one last word you’d like to give? One last word on the recording you’d like to give me?
JB One last word. Well what do I say? It’s been nice meeting you, and certainly a surprise. I had a similar interview as this about three weeks ago from a man who is doing exactly what you’re doing for 100 Group because they have a reunion every year in England, in Norfolk, and he did exactly what you’re doing now, almost word for word what we’ve just said. If you can’t get that then, and also, I’ve also made a DVD of this same thing, just like you’re doing, about five years ago, which is on a DVD somewhere. if I can find it you can have that too if you want.
GT: See [indecipherable].
JB: Better leave me a card so I can get in touch with you.
GT: Okay John, well, thank you. We’ll end our interview there. That’s fifty three minutes that we’ve had a chat here, so. It’s been a pleasure.
JB: Chop it about, cut bits out you don’t like, or whatever.
GT: I’m sure they’ll like all of it, okay. So, thank you John, I appreciate your time. Thank you. Bye bye.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Benjamin Beeching
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABeechingJB180118
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:53:28 audio recording
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
John Beeching was born in London and joined the RAF in 1941. His initial training was in Canada. After several escapades John joined 169 Squadron as a night fighter pilot and worked in electronic countermeasures as well as training crews in air gunnery. Post-war he saw damage in Germany and moved on to instruct in blind landings. John left the RAF and went to Canada then emigrated to New Zealand, working in a number of engineering based jobs. John came over to the unveiling of the Green Park Memorial and was active in the New Zealand Bomber Command Association. He gives his strongly felt views on these and other matters.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
New Zealand
England--Bedfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
Manitoba--Winnipeg
New Brunswick--Moncton
New Zealand--Christchurch
New Brunswick
Manitoba
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
100 Group
169 Squadron
627 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Beaufighter
bombing
Gee
Mosquito
Oxford
P-51
pilot
radar
RAF Twinwood Farm
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/631/8901/PQuineJW1603.2.jpg
d8bf456c899eddf94849e34a0fb71c7b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/631/8901/AQuineJW160805.2.mp3
150ac30c9c6d3baa4f6bacf9b4d9923b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Quine, John Wakeford
J W Quine
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Quine, JW
Description
An account of the resource
Seven Items. Collection concerns Pilot officer John Wakeford Quine (b. 1923, 1576065, 185297 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 170 and 582 Squadrons. The collection consists of his logbook, official documents, a course photograph and an oral history interview. also includes a sub-collection of a photograph album of his time training in the United States as well as some target photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Quine and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945
1946
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Friday the 5th of August 2016. I’m in Lickey with John Quine who was a pilot and he’s going to tell us all about his life and times particularly in the RAF. So what are your earliest recollections of life, John?
JQ: Well my very earliest recollection in life is living in Wales in Penarth. My father was a civil servant and he was working in Cardiff, if I remember rightly and my grandparents were living in Penarth where [pause] where my grandfather had a printing company which was in Tiger Bay. It was only a small company but apparently quite successful. In those days I remember seeing the odd aircraft go across the sky and everybody looked at it because there weren’t many there and they were little bigger than the average light aircraft of these days. Usually with two wings but sometimes one would say, ‘Look, there’s a monoplane.’ And then I remember seeing an airship on a couple of times. It would either be the R100 or the 101, I can’t remember now. Or it could have been both. And they looked absolutely huge in the sky. They weren’t, obviously but seeing a lump like that in the sky was most unusual. At an early age my father interested me in the Schneider Trophy. I missed the first one but the second one I got sort of got interested, and I listened to the commentary on the radio where of course history tells us that we, we won and on the third year we won again and we had won the first one so that gave us the Schneider Trophy permanently and the Schneider Trophy being a race for seaplanes which we won it was a sort of a basis for the Spitfire when Mitchell came to design it. So at that early age I was interested in flying and I used to have model planes which I used to fly around in my hand making the appropriate noises and whatnot as a kid of about five and later on I went on to the extremely technical one of a rubber band being used as a propellant. So that’s how my interest in planes started. And so it went on. I was, remained interested in planes. I used to see Alan Cobham and his air circus. By now we’d moved to Lickey near Birmingham and Alan Cobham used to come once a year to the aerodrome which was at the Austin motor works. The aerodrome now has gone and so has the Austin motor works for that matter but I used to be able to see them doing all the stunts from the house where we lived at the time. I did, on one occasion, go and actually view the circus on, on the aerodrome itself but I didn’t have a flight because in those days it was, if I remember rightly, five shillings for a quick trip and five shillings was quite a lot of money in those days. I well remember one trick which, wing walking and this really was wing walking because they got an aeroplane, something like a Tiger Moth, might have been a Tiger Moth and the chap got out of the seat that he was in, two in the aircraft of course, he got out of the seat and walked around the outside of the aircraft, got on to the wing and walked up and down a bit and waved to the crowd and then he got underneath the underneath wing and sat on the axle that held the landing wheels and they landed the aircraft with him sitting there and I think an extremely dangerous thing to do and certainly wouldn’t be allowed today. So later on when the war started I did a short period in the, in the Home Guard and then I volunteered for, to join the air force. Having decided to volunteer I was walking down a road in Nottingham, my father now having been moved to Nottingham because of the war and I went in and saw the recruiting sergeant and he said, ‘Well what do you want to do in the air force?’ And I said, ‘Well, I think I’d like to be a mechanic.’ I had thought at that time that it, when I came out of the air force it could be useful. Never dreaming that we might of course, lose the war at the time but he said well you, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t, now I’m overrunning the story a bit. Yeah. I said, ‘Right. Well I’ll go away and think about it. I’ll come back next week,’ which I did. During the week I thought well if I’m going into the air force I might as well be a pilot. So I went back and I said, ‘I’ve changed my mind. I’d like to be a pilot.’ And the recruiting sergeant said, ‘You wouldn’t be any good as a pilot.’ And I said, ‘Why not?’ And he said, ‘You didn’t have a secondary school education.’ Secondary schools in those days were, you know almost equal to a grammar school and I said, ‘Well, what makes you think I haven’t had a secondary school education?’ He said, ‘Well have you.’ And I said, ‘Yes. I have. I went to Bromsgrove County High School.’ So he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘. Well, alright, well I’ll put you forward.’ So I didn’t hear anything for three weeks or so as far as I remember and then I was called again and I had to go for an RAF interview and a test which I found extremely easy at the time and went away again and the next thing I knew was I had my discharge papers so I queried this why I’d been discharged when I hadn’t even been in and they said, ‘You’re in a reserved occupation,’ which was quite ridiculous because it wasn’t so very long since I left school but I was working at the Brush Electrical Company in Loughborough and so, anyway they didn’t have any objection to my going. Probably, probably glad I did [laughs] So in the end the matter was resolved and I was taken back into the air force with a different number and so I got in. Now, the sequel to that story is that after I’d been in the air force and got trained and had pilot’s wings and was an officer I was walking down the same road in Nottingham and I thought, I wonder if that recruiting sergeant is still in the recruiting office so I went in and he was. So he still being a sergeant and me an officer he of course jumped to his feet and saluted and I kept him going for about five minutes and then, then I told him and we both had a laugh together.
[machine paused]
CB: Ok.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Right.
JQ: So having joined the RAF I went to St Johns Wood and the first place I went to was Lord’s Cricket Ground where we had an FFI and I’ve, I’ve had many a laugh with people telling them that I, I’ve been in the famous long room in the pavilion with my trousers down and they say, ‘How on earth did you manage that?’ But that was the reason. Then I went to ITW at Scarborough for a bit. I was quite amazed at the fact that there was quite a few people there that couldn’t swim because that was one of the things that happened there that if you couldn’t swim they taught you to swim there in the local baths and then from there we went out to Carlisle for ten hours attitude training on Tiger Moths and the instructor made a big mistake with me because after I’d been flying for about five hours he said, ‘Oh you’re quite a natural. If you go on like this, in another couple of hours you’ll solo.’ And we weren’t really required to solo there. It was just an attitude test. Well of course having told me that of course I went right off but I did actually solo after nine hours and so that was quite, quite a boost for me and then after a short time in Manchester at Heaton Park we were sent off to Canada in the Andes ship that had been a cruise liner which had been taken over as a troop ship and when we got to Canada we went to Moncton. It was Christmas Day I remember. We got there. We didn’t actually have our Christmas dinner and whatnot until a fortnight later. But then they had us all in a hangar and separated us out and about ninety percent of the people went to Canada but some of us were sent to America. To various places in America but we went to Oklahoma. When we got there they kitted us out with American uniforms which was a sort of summery uniform because it was quite hot at the time but we were, we had our own hats which we wore and our own insignia on the arm but apart from that it was more or less like a summer dress, and we were there for about six months doing ordinary, learning to fly and aerobatics and all that sort of thing and it was on one of these flights that was in a Harvard at the time which was the more advanced trainer that we used and I met, I had, I made a pal of a chap who lived in Redditch which wasn’t very from where I lived at home and we went on a cross country. We were sent on a cross country and we got lost or partly lost. Anyway, we weren’t quite sure where we were and I spotted this town so I thought, and there was a railway there and I thought I wonder if they’ve got the station name written up so I thought I’d go down and have a look and I went down. They hadn’t got the name on the station but they had got it written around a water tower so we knew exactly where we were then. Now the sequel to that story is that when the war had finished with Germany we were sent out to do what we called Cooks Tours over the, over the Germany, over Germany and we took ground crew with us and showed them what they had helped to do and coming back on, from one of these things on a very hot day and flying at about two hundred feet which we were allowed to do everybody was, it was, it was a bit boring and we were, and I think the bomb aimer was getting a bit bored with his life so he, and so was, so was the navigator and so the navigator said, ‘Would you mind skip if I come out and have a look around?’ And I said, ‘No you can’t do that because we shan’t know where we are if you,’ And the bomb aimer said, ‘Well, I’ll map read.’ So I said, ‘Alright then. Well the navigator can come out.’ So he came out and we flew happily along for about another half hour and it was all quiet and so forth apart from the noise of the engines of course and I said to, ‘Where are we Jimmy?’ Jimmy being the bomb aimer. No reply. And so I asked him again. Still no reply. So I said to the engineer, ‘Have a look down and see what’s happened to Jimmy,’ and Jimmy was fast asleep. So we then didn’t know where we were so I thought, right. So I saw this town. I thought I wonder whether they’ve got the name written around a water tower and they had so we were able to use that. So that was fine.
[pause]
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo.
[machine paused]
CB: So when you were in the States were they military or civilian instructors?
JQ: Oh civilians.
CB: Ok. What sort of people?
JQ: Young, youngish chaps. Quite good flyers they were but some of the seniors were, you know, sort, sort of bosses over them but none of them were that old.
CB: And they hadn’t been called up for the American military and were flying training you.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: And still civilians.
JQ: Yeah. I don’t know how old they were.
CB: Well that’s ok.
JQ: Yeah. Just let me find myself again.
CB: Ok. The intriguing thing here John is that you’re being trained in America by civilians with the war having started and you’re not being trained in Canada so how did they treat you and what were the conditions like?
JQ: Well, we were, we were extremely surprised actually because if you take the food for instance. Here we were coming from a very strictly rationed country to one who although they said they were rationed was not really rationed by our standards at all and the bread was white for a start. Our bread was anything but white and there was plenty of this and plenty of that and the natives were extremely friendly, you did find the odd one but what used to annoy us although I can’t think now why it did annoy us but they used to call us limeys, the people that annoyed us. But we called them yanks so, you know, tit for tat really but most people didn’t call us limeys and they were extremely friendly, extremely hospitable and the girls were very hospitable and I remember on the first night we were a bit staggered because we’d hardly arrived and we were invited to, to a roller skating party which was quite something really. Fortunately, I could roller skate so I wasn’t too bad at that and many of the students, us that is, formed relationships with the girls that lasted for years. Sometimes some married them but I’m not sure how many but certainly there were, friendships were made and I couldn’t praise them too highly really. People would say, ‘How did you find them?’ And I’ve always said they were absolutely magnificent to us. They couldn’t have been better, Hospitable to the point of being over generous.
CB: How many of you were there on each course?
JQ: Oh now that’s difficult. I would have guessed at about fifty but I am guessing now and from memory so -
CB: And so you were in American uniform but with British insignia.
JQ: That’s right.
CB: And you had a structure with some, there was an officer, an RAF officer running it was there or what?
JQ: Yes the RAF officer was the chief of the whole lot. The CO and the ground instructors were RAF and British but the flying was done because we were at the Spartan School of Aeronautics in America and other schools were similar and I presumed that they were instructors who were instructing at the school before we arrived. Of course nobody else was there of course at the time other than RAF people except a sprinkling and I do mean a sprinkling of about six, something like that, of Americans. One of the things that did slightly annoy us, not too much really but the Americans went through exactly the same training as we did and they were awarded with the American flying badge and the RAF flying badge and we were not awarded the American flying badge. We just got the RAF one and we expected to get them both but we didn’t get them. I think on one of the things that I’ve got they do say that certain courses did get them both but whether that’s true or they just said it I don’t, I’ve no idea.
CB: So how many hours would you have done when you finished there after six months, to get your wings?
JQ: Now that’s, I shall have to have notice of that.
CB: Yeah. Well it doesn’t matter. So you’ve got your wings -
JQ: Yeah.
CB: And then -
JQ: Well we got our wings. Well in getting those wings we, at one point we’d done advanced training and we were halfway through that and they split us in to two then. They assessed people as being fighter pilots or bomber pilots and fighter pilots went on to air to ground gunnery and the bomber pilots did something else. I’m not sure what they did but presumably bombing but I’m not sure. I was put on the fighter pilots lot.
CB: Oh.
JQ: But when I got back to England they didn’t want any fighter pilots so I automatically went on to bombers.
CB: Right.
JQ: We had an aside on this one is that we had, we did have reunions after the war and I went on one and it involved us doing an internal flight. We went into Dallas, flew into Dallas from Britain and then from there we’d got to go fly to Tulsa. I think I’m right and from there we got a ground thing to Oklahoma. I think that’s the way it worked. Anyway, you had to do this internal flight, wherever it was and I noticed while we were waiting to board the aircraft, a civilian aircraft, I noticed the pilot go around the back of the desk and disappear and I thought, I wondered why has he gone around there? So I sort of wandered around while we were waiting for boarding and he was there coming out of a little sort of cubby hole thing and I said, ‘What are you doing around here?’ And he said, ‘Oh I’m just checking up on the weather,’ he said, ‘We’ve got a computer in here, comes out on the weather,’ he said. ‘I don’t know why I’m doing it here actually,’ he said, ‘We get it out on the aircraft anyway but,’ he said, ‘I thought I’d just have a look.’ I said, ‘Well you’d better do a good landing when you get,’ and he said, ‘Why?’ And I said, ‘You’ve got forty five pilots in the back.’ And he said, ‘We haven’t have we?’ He said, ‘I’ll give it to the second pilot. He lands it better than I do’ [laughs] So off we went and during the course of the flight he wandered back and he was saying hello and whatnot and, and when we’d landed and it was quite a reasonable landing he was there waiting and he saw me and he said, ‘Well? What did you think of the landing?’ And I said, ‘Nine out of ten.’ [laughs]. So anyway he laughed too. So that was that.
CB: Yeah. When. when you were in the States doing your training to what extent was the, how rigorous was the training? They examined you, tested you all the way did they?
JQ: All the way through.
CB: Or did you lose quite a few people because they didn’t pass.
JQ: Didn’t lose many people, no. And of course while up to that point sixteen people had been killed.
CB: Of the fifty or -
JQ: No. I mean -
CB: No. In general.
JQ: Since the thing started.
CB: Oh right. Ok.
JQ: And certainly one of my friends doing this air to ground gunnery had not pulled up early enough and had tipped his wing on the target which was a fairly a big target, half the size of this room and landed, well not landed but crashed about two fields away and of course he didn’t do himself any good so he disappeared. I don’t think he died or anything like that but so people, people left for one reason or another. Either they, very few fortunately got killed. Some, some just couldn’t complete the course because they were injured or their health wasn’t good or they had to stay there in hospital and whatnot and wait until they got better and then complete the course and presumably did something else so -
CB: I ask the question because over a course of training, period of training for RAF pilots there’s a continuous chop going on and I just wondered how the chop rate was there.
JQ: No. Well I would have said it was quite good actually.
CB: And then when you’d finished the training did they run a party for you or what did they do?
JQ: I remember the party very painfully actually.
CB: Oh. She was as nice as that was she?
JQ: Well we had, they told us they were going to give us this party at the end. Either they told us or we assumed it from somebody else who had it for us and we knew we were going to get one. In the, in the restaurant, what do they call it? What do they call the PA.
CB: The PX.
JQ: And so what we decided to do was to pay every week while we were training. We put in so many dollars. I can’t remember how much it was now each and then that would give us a free night. The night came and it was due to start say at 8 o’clock. I don’t remember quite now but all I’d got to do was walk from my billet, across about a hundred yards to the restaurant, PA or whatever and there I was so at five to eight I went across and there was a lot of blokes there and one bloke came up and said, ‘Hello John what are you having?’ That was only, I mean he wasn’t paying anyway but you know I said, ‘Oh I’ll have a beer, yes.’ Well he brought me this beer back and he said, ‘Cheers.’ ‘Cheers.’ And it was neat Scotch he’d got in this thing.
CB: Jeez.
JQ: I’d got, it wasn’t half a pint but it was I didn’t query it because we were in America not England. I’d have queried it if it was a beer in England because you should be up the top you see but it was three quarters of a glass, half a pint glass of this thing and it was neat Scotch so I thought well I’ll stick on this. I gently got a way through this. It was in, blokes were coming in and so forth and so I finished this thing and we still hadn’t started dinner so I don’t want to drink a pint of beer on the top of this half a pint, I don’t think they had pint glasses, I can’t remember now so I thought I’d have another of these so I had another of these Scotches. Big one. And we settled down to the dinner which, if I remember rightly was very nice and I finished this thing and all around me blokes were getting tight, you know, really really tight and I thought I’m blinking well doing well here on this Scotch. I’d better have another. So I had another. And I was still alright when I finished it and I thought, I don’t know how I managed this you see. So I thought well that’s over, finished, so I went outside you see and well the cold air hit me so I thought I’d better get off to bed so I started to walk this hundred yards to my bed and I got as far as the flagpole in the middle of this lawn where they ran up the RAF flag ceremoniously at 7 o’clock every morning. And I thought, oh I do feel tight. So I sat down and I don’t remember another thing until I woke up at half past five in the morning with the dew on me and I thought blimey I’d better get out of here or I’m going to be in trouble if they come to ceremoniously put [pause] so I staggered, I staggered to my bed, got into bed and of course I’d got to get up about an hour later or something like that and I felt like death for about three days, you know. So I won’t do that again. I don’t know how I managed it to be quite honest.
CB: So what was the accommodation like? Were you in individual -
JQ: Well the accom -
CB: Rooms or dormitories?
JQ: Well the set up was a, was a hotel. It had been a hotel. It was a chain. A bit, a bit like Premier Inn or something like that and they’d got a chain all around America of these things and they’d taken one of these over as the administrative building and it had got a fair amount of land around it or they’d, either that or they’d cornered it and they’d built these wooden huts you see which wasn’t terribly out of the ordinary ‘cause of course, particularly in Oklahoma a lot of their, or most of their houses are wooden anyway and they were very comfortable and of course being in the RAF the lino was polished, sort of thing, by us and all the beds were all tidy and done up officially when not being slept in and all this sort of thing and it was all very nice. When we went back on the thing, the, I forget what had happened to the administrative building. It wasn’t RAF. Whether it had gone back to being a hotel I don’t know but they let us go into the huts that we were in which had been taken over by Wrangler’s Jeans and they looked a right shambles. They really did. Absolute dump. And so that was it but while we were there it was very good.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I was a bit bothered about the fact that they’d built some, for the junior people, you know, the new intake they, I think they were stepping it up or something but they’d built another set of dormitories in wood and they also put some loos with them and the loos were just a series of WC’s about a yard apart all the way down. No, no shielding around them -
CB: No.
JQ: At all. I didn’t, I thought I couldn’t do that but fortunately I didn’t have to use those because I was a senior by that time.
CB: So what rank were you under training?
JQ: Under training I was an AC2 and as soon as we got our wings they made us sergeants and then from then on it was up to them how you got on and what you did and all that sort of thing.
CB: So you got your wings. You’re a sergeant. What happened to come back? How did you come back?
JQ: We came back on the Queen Mary, no Queen Elizabeth the first which I think was made to carry about three thousand. It was a cruise ship but it hadn’t been finished. It had been started before the war and it, and it was a ship which would go but it hadn’t got, the cabins were all inside but that was about it you know. Well, as a troop ship you don’t need all the comforts and what not so in a room which was supposed to be for two there would be six blokes and they could only sleep in it one night and the next night they’d have to sleep wherever and somebody else moved in and then the next night you were back in it and so you alternated but I mean the crossing was only about four days anyway so, but they’d got, on a ship that was supposed to take three thousand they’d got about ten thousand on it and it went at full speed and zigzagged all the way and if you didn’t lie down on the floor, if it wasn’t your turn to be in bed, in a bunk if you didn’t lie down on the floor somewhere by about half past six, at night you didn’t lie down because there were so many bodies all over the corridors and what not it was just practically impossible to find enough room to lie down so everybody was sort of certainly sitting down and marking their space very early on in the time. Nobody shaved, or very few people shaved. You couldn’t in actual fact have a decent shave because they didn’t, didn’t, if you turned a the tap on sea water came out which, which is alright for having a swill around but if you try and make a lather with, in salt water you’re struggling. You just don’t get one. So a lot of people thought blow it, you know, they just four days and just began to look -
JB: Stubby.
JQ: More unkempt every day.
CB: Where did that go in to?
JQ: That went in to, it went in to, Greenock.
CB: And from there where did you go?
JQ: From there we went to Heaton Park in, in Manchester. And from there, after we were at Heaton Park for a while, [pause] No I’m telling you wrong I’m sorry. We went in to Harrogate. Yes. That’s where we went. We went into Harrogate and then we were allocated places from there. I went to Oxford. To, up a little field and I mean a field at a place called Windrush.
CB: I know it.
JQ: And there we learned to fly on Oxfords.
CB: That’s at Witney.
JQ: Pardon?
CB: Windrush is at Witney.
JQ: Is it?
[Pause].
JQ: And -
[pause]
CB: So this was for your twin engine training.
JQ: That’s right and I remember going off, they sent us, they sent us off on a cross country. A solo cross country it was and I started off on this solo cross country and I ran into cloud which didn’t bother me because we could fly on instruments but unfortunately I came out of this cloud after I was supposed to have turned because I thought I would and I did come out but I couldn’t find myself and we got a system going, Darkie. I don’t know whether you’ve come across that.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: It was an emergency system and I thought well I’ll call up Darkie. So I said, ‘Hello Darkie. Hello Darkie.’ And the nearest aerodrome was supposed to reply. This is whoever. And then you knew where you were. Well one did reply and Snitterfield it was I was supposed to get to. I was now supposed to have landed at Snitterfield and so I said, ‘Hello Darkie. Hello Darkie. And they came back, they said, ‘Hello Darkie. This is Snitterfield.’ And I thought well I must be here and I was looking around and I thought well I can’t see Snitterfield here. You’d see an aerodrome. It was right underneath me. That’s why I couldn’t see it. [laughs]. Anyway I eventually spotted that and landed there and that was fine. And then another time I was doing something in this Oxford and I was flying low, minding my own business as it were and I smelled roast beef. At least I thought it was roast beef and it didn’t strike me for a bit and then I thought what am I doing smelling roast beef up here? So I thought what is it and I looked down and the batteries are there in an Oxford.
CB: Right next to you.
JQ: And it was sort of boiling over, this battery so I got, got down a bit sharpish after that but anyway it was alright. From there I was sent to Peplow which is, is up near Wellington in Shropshire and there we flew Wellingtons which I thought was quite a nice aircraft actually because of course by that time it was getting a but outdated and I think it was there that they put us all in a room and said pick yourself a crew.
CB: So this was an OTU.
JQ: Now, wait a minute.
CB: Based where did you say?
JQ: Yeah. Yes. Peplow. A place called Peplow.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
JQ: And put us all in this room and I finished up without a crew. Couldn’t make up my mind or they couldn’t make up, because everybody was supposed to have a go, you know. So they said, ‘You’ll have to wait ‘til next week.’ Anyway, I didn’t wait for next week ‘cause they got in touch with me in in the afternoon. I think we did the thing in the morning and they got in touch with me would I report somewhere which I did and oh by this time I was a flight sergeant and I reported and they said, ‘One of the pilots has gone missing,’ not missing, ‘sick. So we’re not holding the crew up,’ he said, ‘We’ve got two pilots and one crew so what we’re going to do is we’re going to let you meet the crew and the crew’s going to pick the pilot.’ So we met them and they picked me which was a bit fortunate for them because while we were still there the other pilot, the one that wasn’t picked, got a crew and he was flying this Wellington around still doing his training with the crew and the wing fell off and they all got killed. The initial finding was that it was pilot error but they did actually prove in the end that it wasn’t. That apparently, so I was told at that time, that the wing on a Wellington is only held on by two, albeit heavy bolts, one of which had rusted through or something [pause] and, and that that brings me to another tale of the same thing because a ground crew member when we were on ops, after we’d finished on operations, a ground crew member told me that one of the faults with the Lancaster was that they tended to get cracks in the main spar right near the fuselage and what what they used to do to cure it was to drop a piece of channel over the top of the main spar underneath the outer skin and pop rivet it on and put the main skin on and that was it and he said, ‘If you’d known that’s what we were doing you would never have flown it.’ I don’t think that’s quite right because we wouldn’t have had any, any say in the matter but how true that is I don’t know but that’s what a ground crew member told me.
CB: So you finished your OTU.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: With the crew who picked you.
JQ: That’s right.
CB: And how, where did you go after that?
JQ: Went to Lindholme.
CB: Right.
JQ: Which is now a prison I think up at Yorkshire and then we -
CB: And what happened at Lindholme? What was that?
JQ: Well Lindholme was four engines. Getting on to four, training on to four engines.
CB: So you got extra crew members there. Was this the HCU?
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Heavy Conversion Unit.
JQ: Yes. I think that’s what it was called. I just got one, one crew member there, the engineer.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I can’t. I flew a Halifax but I can’t remember whether it was, yeah, it must have been before we went on to the Wellingtons. I had some time on a Halifax and I remember learning all about the complicated fuel system on a Halifax because you’ve got to be careful because if you do it in the wrong order it can cut petrol off to all engines.
CB: Right.
JQ: But I’ve [pause] and I went on to Lancasters. Now I hadn’t got an engineer at the time and I was flying a Lancaster around without an engineer.
CB: At the HCU.
JQ: Yeah, but it wasn’t long before they gave me one and he was, he was an ex lorry driver. Nice chap. Anyway, he, he turned out to be a first class engineer in actual fact but at this time the, if you’re putting the flaps down on a Lancaster the lever is just there and you -
CB: On your right side.
JQ: Yes and you push, you push it down and wait for the flaps indicator to go around to whatever flaps you want and then you pull it back up again to the right position, to the sort of neutral position but its hydraulically done and if it, if it doesn’t work the trick is you push it down and if nothing works so you pull it up and push it down again and nine times out of ten it works ok. So we were practicing circuits and bumps with the engineer and I called for fifteen degrees of flap on the downwind legs so he gives me fifteen degrees of flap having slowed the aircraft so that it would take it. Now I’ve then got to slow the aircraft down a bit more so I can put thirty degrees of flap on and I’m now coming in on the final approach so I call for thirty degrees of flap and he pushes it down and nothing happens so he obviously does the right thing he pulls it back up again but he didn’t push it down again so, what fifteen degrees of flap or whatever how much he’s got down comes up rather smartly and we went down extremely smartly because we’d slowed down, half stalling really. So I rammed the, all the throttles wide open and we missed a tree by about a foot and everybody swore like the clappers and the engineer never did it again [laughs].
CB: Ok. We’ll stop there a mo.
[machine paused]
CB: So on the question of the engineer and the use of flaps and throttles who would normally run the flaps?
JQ: Normally the engineer would do the flaps.
CB: On your command.
JQ: On my command.
CB: Right.
JQ: That’s right and as I said before he made a mistake the first time but -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: He never made it again.
CB: No.
JQ: On, with regard to the throttles he followed me up. I always did the throttles.
CB: On take-off.
JQ: On take-off.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: In every way but he was there just in case something happened, I took my hand off for some reason or whatever, his hand was always there so that he could just push, push them up. He also looked after the petrol of course and switched all the tanks and so forth and after an initial period of time I trusted him enough to not even tell him to do it. He just did it. And there was a point where that came extremely useful because getting back to the war and why we were there and so forth we were hit by anti-aircraft fire on occasion and I never noticed to be quite honest because I was still on the bombing run and on a bombing you’ve got to fly extremely accurately straight and level and keeping the height and the speed and the attitude of the aircraft absolutely [thing?] There’s only way of doing that particularly at night is on instruments, so you’d be there on instruments trying to be as accurate as you can and the engineer er the bomb aimer would be saying, ‘Left. Left. Right. Right,’ and so forth and you’d be following his instructions and so I was doing that when the upper mid, mid-upper gunner said, ‘Skip, we’re on fire,’ and I looked and the port tank was on fire and going quite, quite well but it hadn’t exploded.
CB: Which tank is this? Is this number one on the in board?
JQ: I don’t, no it’s -
CB: Close to the fuselage
JQ: It was, I can’t remember. I think it was between the two engines I thought.
CB: Right.
JQ: Anyway. I can’t remember to be exact. Anyway, I was still on the bombing run because I thought well we’ve got to finish this bombing run so keeping a quick eye on that or trying to and doing the bombing run at the same time. I was trying to decide what to do and I thought well the thing to do is we’ve probably got to bale out but I was determined to finish this bombing run because we were so near so I said, ‘Prepare to abandon the aircraft,’ but I still continued the bombing run and the bomb aimer still continued to give me instruction and then when we’d finished, when he said, ‘Bombs gone,’ we’d still got to carry on that little bit longer for the photograph you see and by this time I’d come to the conclusion that if we were going to bale out, over the target was not a good idea, because apart from the fact that you’d be getting into a whole lot of anti- aircraft fire because the Germans weren’t aiming at any particular aircraft they were just pumping as much stuff up there as they could possibly get and so and if you managed to avoid all that the natives below wouldn’t be very pleased to see you and indeed they had been known to be extremely annoyed. So I thought well we’ve got a short dog leg to do which is going to take us about five minutes I wonder if we could, we shall have to risk it so as soon as, soon as the time was up I’d turned and it was then I said, ‘Prepare to abandon ship,’ which they all did. Before we got to the end of the thing, the end of this dog leg the fire went out, much to everybody’s amazement including me and we, I’d then got another problem. Have we got enough petrol to get back? Now, quite by chance, the engineer hadn’t got much petrol in that tank which is why it went out but how much was in it we’ll never know because, I’ll tell you in a minute. So I said, ‘Well have we got enough petrol to get home?’ And he sort of calculated up what we’d got in the other tanks and so forth. Fortunately it was a Ruhr thing so it was a short trip. He said, ‘If we’re careful we’ve got enough to get home.’ So he was able to give me an assurance so we were careful and we had to come back at a slow rate and you know, not too use much petrol and that sort of thing. When we got back we found, oh, on the way back the mid-upper gunner said, ‘Skip, I can’t move my turret.’ So I said, ‘Oh. Do you know the reason?’ He said, ‘No. I’ve no idea.’ He said, ‘Could I come down then?’ You know, because he was a bit cold up there and it was a bit warmer in the cockpit and I said, ‘No, you can’t. You stop up there and keep a good lookout,’ So he stopped up there. Anyway, when we got back and down and safe we found that the jettison tube which, I don’t know whether you know, a bit about that diameter and if you want to jettison petrol you pull a lever or push a button, or pull a lever I think it was and this thing drops down and all the petrol goes whoosh down and what had happened was that where we were hit it it had set the thing on fire but at the same time it had dropped this petrol jettison tank down and all the petrol went down very quickly out of the aircraft and what was burning but quite fiercely, instead of exploding it was sort of burning and there wasn’t a lot of it so it didn’t last more than about five minutes or something like that. Well the sequel to that is that it must have been about forty, forty five years later my rear gunner had a sixty fifth birthday party, a surprise party given to him by his wife and she invited all the crew and we all went up and of course he was very surprised and we all got chatting and what not and it was then that he told us this tale. He said, oh no I’m over running the thing, I’m sorry. I’ll go back again. When I’d said, ‘Prepare to abandon ship.’
CB: Yeah.
JQ: He opened his doors, got his parachute out of the thing and clipped it on himself or got it ready to clip on himself, I don’t know whether he’d got room, yes he did. And he sat there waiting for the instruction to bail out in which case he would have probably turned this thing and gone out backwards.
CB: Rolled out backwards. Yeah.
JQ: Now, me in the front there when everything had, when the fire had gone out and I decided that we weren’t going to abandon ship after all I I gave the order not to abandon ship you see and I called everybody in turn and said, ‘Are you alright?’ And one by one they answered and said, ‘yes,’ they are but I didn’t get any reply from the rear gunner so I sent the engineer back to see if he was alright and after a minute or two he came back and he said. ‘Oh, he’s alright. He’s ok,’ he said. I said, ‘Well why didn’t he reply?’ And he said, ‘Well when he got his parachute pack out,’ he said, ‘He inadvertently pulled his plug out of his thing.’ He said, ‘he never got the message not to abandon ship,’ you see. So at this party forty five years later he told, he said he was sitting there waiting for the abandon ship thing and it never came so he thought we’d all gone and he was in there on his own and he was there for ages. Well until the engineer went back. What a thing for a chap to sit in there thinking he’s flying in an aircraft which is flying on its own which of course it could well have been.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JQ: And I think that’s absolutely amazing.
[pause]
CB: Right. So we’ve got to the stage earlier where the engineer pulled up, didn’t use the flaps right.
JQ: Right.
CB: And we’re getting to the end of being at the HCU and then we went on to the operational flight.
JQ: Yeah. That of course was -
CB: That you were talking about.
JQ: That of course was an operational flight.
CB: Exactly. Yeah. But we haven’t finished the earlier bit which was when you were at the HCU. So how did you finish at the HCU?
JQ: Well the thing I remember about that is that, also was that I was at the HCU I’d fixed to get married and they sent a message through saying would I attend a commissioning interview, on my wedding day. Not that they knew it was my wedding day.
CB: Right.
JQ: So I thought I can’t put my wedding off you see so I went to the CO and said would it be possible for me to, thing, and he said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘You can’t do that,’ he said. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You can,’ he said. ‘But,’ he said, ‘The chances are you won’t get a commission if you don’t.’ And so I thought, ‘Well I won’t then,’ you see. Anyway, my crew, crew persuaded me that that wasn’t a very good idea so I requested another interview with the CO and he gave me one and he said, ‘Well Quine,’ he said, ‘It’s not my decision,’ he said, ‘It comes from group this has.’ And there was a sergeant in the room at the time and the sergeant said, ‘What’s the problem sir?’ So he told him. He said, ‘Would you excuse me a moment,’ and off he went and he came back again and he said, ‘It’s alright sir. I’ve fixed it quite good.’ He said, ‘If he could get there for 2 o’clock in the afternoon instead of 9 o’clock in the morning it’ll be ok.’ And I thought the CO couldn’t do it and that sergeant had done it. Well it appeared that the sergeant worked in the office and he was in touch with with his counterpart at group and he got through and this chap had said it would be alright, you know.
CB: So what time was the wedding?
JQ: Well the wedding was supposed to be at some reasonable sort of time but you know 9 o’clock in the morning there’s no reasonable time you can get married about 6 o’clock in the morning or something like so I would have had to have cancelled it but what I did do was to got married at half past nine in the morning and then I’d got to get from here, well not this house, but, you know, a similar one.
CB: Lickey.
JQ: Lickey. Well it wasn’t Lickey actually. It was a place called [Linkbery?]
CB: Oh yes I know.
JQ: Where we’d gone to live by that time. No. It wasn’t. No. I beg your pardon it was here. It was here, Lickey. And I had to get, get there without any public transport or cars. Well public transport but certainly no cars so I managed to get myself on a train. It must have been about 11 o’clock or something like that ‘cause I got married. Had a quick wedding breakfast. Got on a train, went, that’s right it was a train. I went into Birmingham, and then I had to change trains in Birmingham and get up to Derby, Burton on Trent, get off at Burton on Trent and there was a taxi outside. There weren’t many taxis but I went up to this taxi and I can remember I said, ‘Could you take me to Eckington Hall?’ I remember the name of the place. It had been taken over by the RAF and I said to him, ‘Could you take me to Eckington Hall?’ He said, ‘I’m engaged.’ So I said, ‘I’ve just been married.’ And he said, ‘Oh. Well I’ll take you then.’ [laughs] Not only that. He not only took me but he also took my wife and we were going on honeymoon. You couldn’t go out of the country of course, you couldn’t even go to the seaside in those days. Not within ten miles of the coast so we had to go to Shrewsbury and so when we got to Eckington Hall in this taxi I went up to the guardroom at the, which was at a lodge at the front of this big hall and saw the thing in the guardroom and the chap said, I said I’ve got my wife outside. We just got married. Could she come in as well? He said, ‘Oh no you can’t bring her in.’ You see. So I had to say, ‘You’ll have to stop out here,’ you see, so leaving a rather a large case and what not with my wife I said, ‘Well which way do I go?’ and they said, ‘It’s that nissen hut over there,’ ‘cause they’d put some huts in the thing. So leaving my wife there I went and it’s now about 2 o’clock in the afternoon or something like that and I went to this nissen hut and I opened the door to find myself immediately in the interview room with an interview going on and a sergeant rushed over and he said, ‘You must be Quine.’ And I said, ‘Yes I am.’ He said, ‘Go around the other side.’ So I went around the other side and the place was full of people.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: All waiting for commissioning interviews so somebody I knew there, and I said, ‘How, how long is it?’ They said, ‘Well we’ve been here since 9 o’clock this morning,’ And I said, ‘Well what’s the order?’ And they said, ‘Well, you know, did they take your name on the way in?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well that’s it. You have to wait for it.’ He said, ‘You’re in the back of the queue.’ I thought, blimey, what’s my wife going to do out there? So there wasn’t anything I could do about it. So took my hat off and sat down talking to these chaps and I hadn’t been there two or three minutes and they shouted out, ‘Quine.’ And so I got up and they said, ‘Your hat. Put your hat on,’ you see [laughs] so put my hat on. I went in and they knew all about it and they said, ‘You got married.’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Well we hope you have a nice honeymoon and good luck,’ and so forth and off I went to find my wife and she’d been standing outside there and of course all the guards were looking at her all the time so she thought she couldn’t stop. So she wandered off down the road and got herself in the telephone box and she was sitting on her case in the telephone box.
CB: Now which date was this?
JQ: Pardon?
CB: What date was this?
JQ: It was September the 28th 1944.
CB: Right. So when did you know that you’d got your commission?
JQ: It wasn’t long. It wasn’t long. It was quite quick actually because I was still at Lindholme and I knew I’d got it and they gave me some leave, a few days leave so I could go and get myself kitted out and I came to Birmingham. I got kitted, kitted out in a shop that knew all about what they were doing and they’d done it so many times before.
CB: So you’ve got married, you got the interview, you went on honeymoon to, where did you say?
JQ: We went to -
CB: Shrewsbury.
JQ: Well it was near Shrewsbury.
CB: Right.
JQ: It wasn’t in Shrewsbury.
CB: Ok.
JQ: I can’t remember now.
CB: Ok. So you’re at the HCU at that stage at Lindholme.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: When did you finish there and where did you go?
JQ: I think I went straight from there to the, to Hemswell I think. I can’t remember now.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Yeah.
[machine paused]
JQ: So you’re finished at Eckington Hall. What did you do then? You’ve got your wife there waiting for you.
CB: Yeah. So we’d got to go on honeymoon from there.
JQ: Yeah. So we’d got to go back to Birmingham and then catch a train to Shrewsbury so we got back to Birmingham along with three friends that I knew that, who had also been at the interview and we were standing on the station at Snow Hill and my wife decided that, you know, it was men’s talk and what not so she’d gone and sat in the train that was there and one of the other chaps, a chap with red hair so we called him Ginger quite obviously, he’d gone to keep my wife company and have a chat to her and so forth when the train started moving with Ginger and my wife in the thing and me on the platform so there was quite a scramble to change over but we managed it.
CB: Crikey. Where did you meet your wife?
JQ: I used to go to school with her at Bromsgrove High School and we went on the same school bus and in the end we were married for sixty three years.
CB: Brilliant.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Fantastic.
JQ: She died in 2006.
CB: Right.
JQ: So -
CB: Ok.
[machine paused]
CB: So you left the, at the HCU. You had Lancasters, you had Halifax to begin with. Then what happened?
JQ: We went on, got converted onto Lancasters.
CB: Right. And so you left there and went to which -
JQ: We left there on the29th of the 11th
CB: Yeah.
JQ: ’46. No.
CB: ‘45. ‘44
JQ: ’44.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And -
CB: And went, went to your squadron.
JQ: I went to the squadron on December the 2nd.
CB: Yeah. Which was -
JQ: 1944.
CB: Which squadron?
JQ: 170.
CB: Right. At -
JQ: Hemswell.
CB: At Hemswell. Ok.
JQ: And then I went on my first operation on December the 4th
CB: Yes.
JQ: But it was only me that went on that. My crew didn’t. They just, they had the thing of sending you as second pilot for your first time to give you the idea.
CB: Where did you go?
JQ: Karlsruhe.
[pause]
CB: So then you picked up your crew for the next ones. What was the next raid?
JQ: The next one was Koblenz. December the 22nd
CB: Ok. What were the most notable ops? Do you remember?
JQ: Well I remember, well obviously we went on fire was the one -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I remember most.
CB: When was that [pause] ‘cause that was caused by flak.
JQ: That was caused by flak. Yeah.
[pause]
CB: I’ll stop for a mo. while you look.
[machine pause]
CB: So one of your notable events was when you got hit. So what was that?
JQ: That was on Feb -
CB: And when was that?
JQ: That was on February the 3rd 1945.
CB: Ok. What happened there?
JQ: Well we were flying at Bottrop. There was intense searchlight activity with a heavy and light barrage and predicted flak and we were hit by flak and the port wing caught fire.
CB: And how did you know that you’d been hit?
JQ: Well the mid-upper gunner spotted it and -
CB: So if you’re hit in the fuel tank what normally happens?
JQ: Well it normally explodes.
CB: Right. What did the crew do?
JQ: The mid-upper gunner spotted it because I was flying on instruments at the time, on the bombing run and I had to make up my mind what to do and I decided to finish the bombing run which was only a short time afterwards and then decide whether to abandon the aircraft or what to do and I decided that baling out over the target with all that flak and everything else wasn’t a very good idea and so I decided we’d do a short dog leg which we had to do and then bale out so I warned the crew to get ready to bale out but the short dog leg, which was going to take about five minutes, after a couple of minutes the fire went out. For what reason we didn’t know at the time and our biggest problem was would we have enough fuel to get back again. We did in actual fact find out that when we got back to the aircraft, to the aerodrome at home that the discharge tube from the tank for quickly discharging petrol had been hit, it had set what petrol there was in the tank, not a lot fortunately, on fire and the rest had gone straight out of the dumping, discharge tube and, which had then wound itself around the mid-upper turret stopping it from movement.
CB: Blimey. Yes. So the gunner was lucky not to be dowsed in fuel.
JQ: Well he was. Yes. Yes.
CB: Oh he was dowsed in fuel.
JQ: No he wasn’t. He was lucky.
CB: He was lucky yeah. In the circumstance of a tank being ruptured what would the flight engineer normally do?
JQ: Well there wasn’t a lot he could do. There was a, there was a lever to pull which, if I remember rightly, it was nitrogen which would go in and dowse the flames but I can’t remember where it was now but that was, that was the procedure but it all happened so quickly and what with everything going on one -
CB: Sure.
JQ: One wonders.
CB: I’m just wondering whether they would, the flight engineer would normally try to pump fuel out.
JQ: No. he wouldn’t do.
CB: Or was that a dangerous thing to do?
JQ: Well he wouldn’t do it fast enough. I mean fuel normally ignited, explodes doesn’t it? I mean why it didn’t explode, my own theory is that it was so fast coming out of this discharge tube because it was about a foot in diameter this thing.
CB: Oh.
JQ: And so it would really go out and what was left was just burning plus the fact that there was a fair airstream coming over the top of the wing which would keep it from sort of flaming upwards. It was all flaming backwards. It was flaming quite a lot but, enough to be quite frightening.
CB: What speed would you be flying -
JQ: Oh we’d be doing -
CB: On your run in to the bombing?
JQ: We’d be doing roughly two hundred and twenty five miles an hour, er knots, knots or miles and hour I can’t remember now.
CB: Did the gauges read in knots, or miles an hour?
JQ: Do you know I can’t remember?
CB: It doesn’t matter. I’m just curious.
JQ: I pretty sure it’s knots but -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I wouldn’t put my shirt on it now to be honest although I’ve got a thing here which, cruising speed two hundred and ten.
CB: Right.
JQ: Miles per hour that is.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: A hundred and ninety knots.
JQ: And on today’s thing you’d think this was low but the service ceiling of a Lancaster is twenty four thousand five hundred and I took one up to twenty four thousand on one occasion and it was getting extremely slow to get any higher and you know you, you couldn’t get any -
CB: Staggering.
JQ: Headway at all really.
CB: What, what height were you on that day you had the flak fire?
JQ: No. I haven’t -
CB: Would your engines be running at normal cruise all the same all the time then? It didn’t, the fire didn’t affect the engine, either of the engines on that side.
JQ: No. No it didn’t. No. I did actually, when we got back into safer areas I did actually slow the aircraft right down. At night, it’s a bit, it all seems to be a bit hairy sort of doing odd manoeuvres at night but I thought I thought I’d better do it and I warned the crew I was going to do it and I slowed right down to almost a stall. In fact it was beginning to judder and I thought well that’s alright. So -
CB: So your stall clean, that’s with the flaps up, would be what? Roughly. A hundred and forty. A hundred and thirty miles an hour.
JQ: Something like that. I’m just wondering if I’ve got it here. Some people could remember these things straight off and I’m blowed if I can.
CB: Anyway -
JQ: Maximum speed is two hundred and eighty seven at fifteen thousand feet.
CB: For the Lancaster yeah.
JQ: For the Lancaster.
CB: So the other part of your tour you did how many, how many ops did you do in total in that tour with 170?
[machine pause]
CB: So with 170 squadron then how many ops did you do for, it wasn’t a tour but before you moved? You did how many ops? You did eight did you?
JQ: Eight.
CB: Right. Then why did you only do eight?
JQ: Because we moved. We volunteered for, a notice came up they wanted volunteers for, the thing, now there’s a little story about that because we decided that we’d have a go at this.
CB: At what? Volunteering for what?
JQ: Volunteered for -
CB: For Pathfinder.
JQ: Pathfinders.
CB: Right.
JQ: Yeah. And this was something from our point of view I suppose was a little bit new in actual fact because most Pathfinders were Mosquitos but they decided, I don’t know whether they decided then or it just happened to come up but anyway they had this thing and on the 170 squadron we had A crews and B crews and A crews were judged by the practice bombing that we did as to how accurate they were. We had to do, if I remember rightly, drop smoke bombs, we only dropped smoke bombs for practice within about ten yards of the target and it, it might have been a bit more than that but I’m not quite sure and we got, dropped ten within that thing. Well we were a B crew so we decided to try and prove we were an A crew so we did actually, and they said well you know prove to us that we, you can do it so we went up in Lancaster and we went down to the bombing range near Southampton to do this and if I remember rightly it was from about fifteen thousand feet we were dropping eleven pound smoke bombs. The first one we dropped alright as far as I remember. The next one coming up and of course I’m trying to fly very accurately and the bomb aimer says, ‘Overshoot.’ So we overshot and went around again and do a sort of circuit you see and sometimes we dropped them and sometimes we overshot and in the end we dropped them all and the bomb aimer said, ‘I think we’ve done it.’ So in exuberance of the fact that I’d been flying very accurately and you know really trying hard with this thing I decided that I’d [?] like this knowing exactly what would happen of course by pushing the control columns but I was a bit too exuberant about it so the rear gunner had the ride of his life and the navigator lost a pair of compasses down the side of the aircraft never to be found again. So anyway we had a good laugh about that.
CB: So you put the nose down. How long did you run it with the nose down?
JQ: Oh only just down and then back again.
CB: Oh right.
JQ: But of course the tail comes up you see.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: The nose goes down, the bomb aimer was wondering, I should think, where he was going.
CB: Bumped his nose. Yeah.
JQ: Anyway, that was alright. We had a good laugh about it. I said, ‘I’m sorry blokes I didn’t mean to do it quite that hard,’ you know. They said, ‘Oh that’s alright.’ That’s when I learned the navigator had lost his compasses or his dividers or whatever they were so we go back to the squadron and and land and the pilot is usually the last one out because you know, the rear gunners usually get out pretty smartly and then the wireless operator. The navigator has got to put his maps away in his bag and he’s got to get himself out and then the pilot’s got to see that the controls are locked and the petrol’s switched off and all this and the engineer might beat him by a short head sort of thing and so I’m just switched everything off and seen everything’s alright and walking down this thing and I could hear this row going on. I said, ‘What’s the row about?’ You see. And I looked and I thought I know what the row’s about. It was this high tech bit of equipment that we’d got in the back of the Lancaster namely an elsan toilet. You see, I wasn’t to know that the elastic band over the top had broken so of course as we, as I’d pushed the stick forward all the contents had come out of this toilet and of course it’s blue. I could see. I mean it’s not a thing you can wipe down just like that because the inside of a military aircraft is full of struts and wires and all sorts of things.
CB: Christ.
JQ: And this, this flight sergeant was going on to my crew despite of the fact that two of them were officers and going on about, ‘bloody mess’ so I thought that’s a bit much. I shall have to apologise so I get to the top of the steps and he’s down there and I said, ‘I’m sorry chiefy,’ I said, ‘It’s, it’s my fault. I was a bit too enthusiastic.’ ‘That’s alright sir. We’ll soon get it cleaned up.’ [laughs] So that was a tale.
CB: Brilliant. What, who were the other officers, what, in the aircraft?
JQ: Well there was Mike Seaton who was navigator. And I’ll tell you a tale about him in a minute and then there was Alf Thompson, rear gunner. Eddie Howell, mid-upper gunner.
CB: All officers.
JQ: Oh no. Beg your pardon. You only wanted officers didn’t you? No.
CB: I want to know all the others but -
JQ: Yeah. Well they were -
CB: I’m just curious about the officers.
JQ: Yeah. Well the navigator was an officer.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Jimmy Green, I haven’t told you. He was an officer.
CB: This is the bomb aimer was he?
JQ: He was the bomb aimer. And then there was Jack Bassington. He wasn’t an officer. How many have you got?
CB: Wait a minute. Yeah. Sorry. So Jimmy Green. Mike Seaton, Ralph Thompson was the rear gunner.
JQ: No. Alf.
CB: Alf Thompson. Sorry. Ok, who was the mid-upper?
JQ: No. No. He was the rear -
CB: Yeah, but who was the mid-upper?
JQ: Eddie Howell. How many have you got?
CB: Wireless operator?
JQ: Jack Bressington. Bressington.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And me. That should be seven.
[pause]
CB: Engineer?
JQ: Engineer.
[machine paused]
CB: Just ask you the question. So John just going back to the time the plane’s on fire the mid-upper tells you that the plane’s on fire. What’s your immediate reaction? How do you feel about that?
JQ: Well it’s difficult to, difficult to say really. If you’re one of these people who can make an instant reaction and it happens to be the right reaction then that’s what you must do but the average person it takes a second or two to sink in and I was doing a job on a bombing run and so I knew that I’d got to do something and the thing I was doing was the nearest thing to do. Having done that I was able to think that getting out of a plane over a target in an area full of anti-aircraft fire with a lot of hostile natives below wasn’t a very good idea. The chances of, of the petrol tank blowing up were diminished slightly, I realised quite quickly because if it was going to blow up it would have been blown up before then and so I thought with a bit of luck I could get to the end of a dogleg which was going to take me about five minutes and then bale out and that was my intention and fortunately the fire went out for whatever reason. We didn’t know at the time but we found out when we got back what had happened.
CB: So you said already you slowed the aircraft down but when you landed, how did you feel?
JQ: Relieved [laughs] yes because I was relieved because it was a fact that we, the fire went out was a relief to start with but we were then faced by the fact that we might not have enough petrol to get back so we might still have to bale out at some stage but at least we might be able to get to somewhere where it was a little bit more friendly then there. So when I slowed the aircraft down and let it almost stall and put the wheels down and I got the indication that they were down and then pulled them back up again of course then I was more relieved at that but we still couldn’t be quite sure whether the aircraft wheels would stay locked down when we got there so I tried to put it down as gently as I could but we were quite relieved to get back.
CB: So your concern there was whether the hydraulics had been damaged. Was it?
JQ: Yes it was. Or anything, any other reason.
CB: Yeah. So what I’m thinking is you taxi to dispersal.
JQ: I wasn’t bothered about taxi.
CB: Then what do you do?
JQ: Yeah. I think we, I don’t think we whooped with joy or anything like that you know I think we just sort of accepted it as being jolly good fortune and next stop the -
CB: The fry up.
JQ: The coffee. Coffee.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Coffee and rum.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And the interrogation as to what had happened.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And, and then eventually to get to bed because we were usually pretty tired by that time.
CB: But you were a bit more tired with that one.
JQ: Yeah.
[machine paused]
JQ: To the dispersal that you know we’d be, we’d be briefed in the briefing room as to what we’d got to do, where we were going and get all our maps, or the navigator would get all his maps together and you’d put all your kit on and you’d get in the wagon and they had to take you out to dispersal and dump you there and you wouldn’t get in the aircraft because you were going to be in there long enough so you’d stop outside the aircraft and chat or do whatever and the CO used to come around, always came around and said, ‘Good luck everybody,’ and then off he’d go again in his car and you’d laugh and joke and whatnot and I’ve often wondered why we did it and everybody did it you know. And I think, thinking back, I think it was bravado. You know. We all, we all knew why we were going and we all knew the chances that we, but nobody said it and I think you just joked. The Americans used to play baseball or something or other.
CB: Antidote to the stress.
JQ: Yeah. I think so. I think that’s what it must have been.
CB: So you’ve got, you’ve got out of the wagon. You’ve peed against the rear wheel. You -
JQ: No. I never did that.
CB: Oh. You didn’t. Right.
JQ: No. Some of them did.
CB: But when you, as soon as, the joking is outside, but as soon as you get in the aircraft.
JQ: No. There wasn’t any joking there.
CB: Right [pause]. How did the crew get on?
JQ: Oh fine. We never had any, any bother about anything. Yes. We were ok.
[machine pause]
JQ: Bomb aimer had been in the air force a little bit longer so he tended to be the one that knew about things. We didn’t get on with him to start with and tried to get rid of him but the CO wasn’t having it. I think if we’d pressed him really hard I think he would have done it.
CB: Was it because -
JQ: Because you were supposed to be able to do it.
CB: Was it his second tour?
JQ: No. No. No. I think he’d been on the ground. He was always a bit, could never quite understand him really. A bit of a line shoot you know. But you know having got over the initial thing we all understood him and you know, he used to joke about the fact, because we had batwomen you know and he always used to say, ‘No batwoman has ever, ever beaten me to the door,’ sort of thing and things like that he used to say. Nobody believed him of course.
CB: This is because you had a mixed crew in terms of rank so you had officers and he was one and you had NCOs so -
JQ: There was one, one on somewhere. I think it was one of the heavy conversion units we were on, he was a wing commander and he used to make his crew line up and salute him as they got in.
CB: And he was serious.
JQ: Oh yes. He was dead serious.
CB: And he was the squadron commander was he?
JQ: No. No. He was just one of us really but his rank was wing commander. Quite how he got there, he was probably re-mustered from some other thing.
CB: Just on that topic did you ever get people who came on an ad hoc basis from OTUs? So they would just come to a station because there was always a shortage of somebody sometime and would just fly with a crew. Did you get any of those?
JQ: Never had that.
CB: In term, we’ve talked about a number of aspects but in terms of your gunners you have a mid-upper and a tail gunner.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: To what extent -
JQ: And of course the bomb aimer had guns up front.
CB: And a bomb aimer at the front. So how often did they, did you get attacked and fire the guns?
JQ: Well never is the answer to that. They did fire the guns but not in anger only to, you know see where we were going and we had to do something to fire at something for some reason or other in the sea. I can’t remember quite why it was now but we never, and I’ve often wondered why we never got attacked and I have a feeling that it may be you read these stories about blokes going on the raids, I’ve read one or two actually and they seem to choose their own height. They might, might attack the target at the right height but in between they’ve gone down low or whatnot. They always used to give us a height to fly and I always flew it and the reason I always flew it is was that I reckoned the higher you go the less petrol you used because the air’s thinner so you don’t need quite so much so that’s what I did. I did what I was told really.
CB: What heights would they be?
JQ: Well it varied. I mean, it, I think the lowest in anger would be about fifteen thousand and the highest would be about twenty and of course the Germans knew this and that’s why they put their thing, they had a box and, but I think what some people must have done is to say right, ‘We’ve done that, dropped the bombs, right, stick the nose down and get home boys,’ you see and you can get that bit faster sticking their nose down and what not. Well you’d use more petrol doing it that way but you’d obviously have enough to get back but you know if you, if you were in trouble then perhaps you’d might miss that bit that you’ve got. But look at it from a fighter’s point of view. Chap’s there in a fighter and he’s churning around at night and there’s one nice and down low where he is and other than that he’s got to climb up to twenty thousand feet or something or other and do up there so he thinks I’ll stop down here and probably gets the pickings down there which wasn’t not the reason I stopped up there in actual fact. I stopped up there because that’s what they said so that’s what I did so -
CB: And when you’re in the bomber stream you need to be on some pre-agreed level don’t you?
JQ: Yes but I’ve read quite a few stories about people who didn’t and of course there must be a lot who didn’t or don’t admit it or didn’t admit it at the time and but I mean I had one time, is that on?
CB: Ahum.
JQ: One time we were told to get together, I can’t remember, rendezvous, that’s the word I was trying to think of, rendezvous at fifteen thousand feet above our airfield along with a lot of others and so we started off and we’d got I think three quarters of an hour, or an hour or something like that to do it and it took us more than that to get to fifteen thousand feet by which time everybody else had gone and it, I mean it was a night raid but it started off in daylight and I knew the reason that we, everybody else had gone was because we weren’t getting the power and I was looking around for a reason. Checked everything through. Checked everything I could think of. I couldn’t find the reason and they said, we did actually set course at the time we should have done but we set course at a lower level. We were still climbing, trying to get to this fifteen thousand feet. By the time we get, we got to the coast the darkness was closing in and we could see the Dutch coast and we could see flak coming up like mad there so we knew that that’s where the bomber stream was and we were on our own and so I thought we were in for it when we, you know, they’ll get us good and proper but anyway so on we went straight through Holland. Nothing. Every now and again on the way we could see these, this flak coming up and every time we got to somewhere near there, nothing. And then we get near the target, near it, it’s going to take us another quarter of an hour or so to get there but I could see over there at about two o’clock to my thing was this beautiful sight, it was amazing really and I thought what on earth is that? And I very quickly realised it was our raid going on and you got the fires that had been lit with the bombing, you’d got Window, do you know what I mean by Window?
CB: Absolutely. Yes.
JQ: Yeah. Trickling down, well you couldn’t actually see the Window but you could see the sparkles coming down. You could see the searchlights going up in to a cone over the top. You could see the markers green and red and what not there and the anti-aircraft fire and it was really was a beautiful sight and it took me a second or two to realise what the devil it was because I knew we’d got to go there, there and bomb on the way back. So I thought blimey. They were really going to be waiting for us when we get there so we did that, we came and we turned around and we were on the run in now. So this time I thought right I’m going to get out of here as quickly as we can so I put the throttles right up, and we went in and we did the bombing run, we went out, not a searchlight came up. Nothing. No ackack fire. Nothing. And it was only on the way out as one searchlight popped up and it wasn’t terribly near us and we got back and we never had a blind thing really and we were all on our own.
CB: Amazing. What height did you manage to achieve in the end?
JQ: Oh I think we, I think we -
CB: It doesn’t matter but I was just curious.
JQ: I can’t remember now. I’ll just see if I can spot it.
CB: Because in practical terms if you were low on power it would be pretty difficult loaded to get high wouldn’t it?
JQ: Yeah. Oh that wasn’t the reason. No, I found, we found out the reason afterwards when we got back because I went around the next morning and said to the mechanics, ‘What did you find?’ And it was stuck in hot air and there was a lever, hot and cold air and I checked that but the answer I got was when they loaded the bombs they, they’d bent a control rod. Now, why a control rod for hot air should go through a bomb bay I’ve no idea but that’s the answer I got so. But I did check, check that. That was the first thing I checked because I -
[pause]
CB: Well let’s pick up that up a bit later. Can we move to when you became a Pathfinder? So you moved from 170 because you did your practice bombing.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: You were so elated with that you put the nose down and –
JQ: Yes.
CB: The elsan -
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Decided to -
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Fly.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: But presumably you were re-graded on that.
JQ: We were. Yes. We were.
CB: So -
JQ: They made us an A crew.
CB: That made you an A crew so what happened then?
JQ: So then they posted us to -
CB: So 582 squadron.
JQ: 582 squadron.
CB: Little Staughton
JQ: Little Staughton. That’s right.
CB: Now this was a demanding experience was it?
JQ: Well they, yes, they didn’t put us straight onto ops because they don’t operate quite the same. They don’t operate the Lancasters quite the same either. They fly them a little bit faster and various other things I can’t quite remember them all now but it wasn’t that much different but they had their own way of doing things. We were expected to, if I remember rightly, we were expected to get to the target plus or minus. I can’t think whether it was a minute or four minutes plus or minus but whereas main force they give you each hour and you started off when you should get there at the time and when you arrived you bombed but you, with Pathfinders you started in good time and then the navigator worked out, he kept working out the eta and if you wanted to lose some time then he’d say, ‘Lose a couple of minutes Skip,’ you see, so I’d turn forty five degrees to the, to the route for two minutes. I’d turn ninety degrees back for two minutes and that puts you back on where you were but two minutes later and then you kept doing that and doing that and you could actually get there more or less smack on time doing that but of course it means that you’re there longer and then what you do then is you have, you have to drop Window which protects the people behind you. It doesn’t do anything for you. It just accentuates the view of you because they can see a line of Win, on the radar they could see a line of Window coming from you but nothing in front so they know that’s you. So we had a special radio which we switched on just before we got anywhere near the target and that sort of blurred everything in front so it gave us the protection that we were giving everybody behind. Having done that we’d go in and if you were new to the, to the Pathfinders you would go in as a supporter. They wouldn’t let you drop a flare or a marker or anything like that but you would go in with those blokes who were going to do that and the fact you were dropping Window and using your radio and all that sort of thing you were supporting them in that, in that respect. You would then, having supported them in that way you then did a circuit around, came back into the bomber stream again and came up to the target again.
CB: In the bomber stream.
JQ: In the bomber stream. And then drop bombs or whatever they’d put in, in the bomb bay. I always thought that was the most dangerous time to be quite honest because it was like doing a u-turn on the M1 at night, you know, without any lights because you didn’t know whether there was some of your own bombers.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Would come and wipe you up you know. I mean I know they worked it all out so that you should all be separated but it doesn’t work like that you know.
CB: No.
JQ: Anyway we never did come to any harm. And then after you’ve done some of those then then they started giving you flares and markers to drop.
CB: How many sorties, ops, would you have to do before qualifying for that? Normally.
JQ: I, I think it was five.
CB: Ok.
JQ: No. No. Wait a minute. It could have been more than that.
CB: So after five you would then join the others straight in.
JQ: Straight in. Yeah.
CB: With flares.
JQ: Except the master, master bomber of course. He was floating around all the time.
CB: Right. So the master bomber would be there and then he would be, what height would he be at?
JQ: Oh he would go -
CB: Watching what was going on?
JQ: Anywhere. Usually quite low.
CB: Oh was he?
JQ: Yeah. And usually in a Mosquito.
CB: Ah.
JQ: In fact I would think probably always in a Mosquito.
CB: And would the master bomber be a pilot or would he be a navigator in a Mosquito?
JQ: Do you know I don’t know? We had, you see, on our squadron, on our thing at Little Staughton we had 582 which was Lancasters and 109 which was Mosquitos and it used to annoy us because we’d go in and we’d take off say at half past six and they’d take off about half past seven. We’d be back about twelve or whatever. They’d be back at ten.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And in bed.
CB: Yeah. Really narking, yeah.
JQ: Yes.
CB: And they’d eaten all the fry up.
JQ: They didn’t do that.
CB: They didn’t get a fry up because it was before midnight.
JQ: What was the question you were asking?
CB: The question was how many ops you had to do before you qualified to go in on the main operation?
JQ: I’m not sure that there was, there was a particular time but -
CB: Because they monitored your progress did they, in the early stages, more than they would otherwise.
JQ: I don’t know.
[pause]
CB: We’re just looking at the logbook.
[pause]
CB: Let’s pick that up, that one up later John.
JQ: Yes. Ok.
CB: So how many, you joined the Pathfinders? They said after, say five that you would then go in on the main operations. So these were all at night were they?
JQ: Yeah. Yeah they were mainly.
CB: And a wide variety of -
JQ: No. No they weren’t, they weren’t all at night. There was the odd one or two as the war went on.
CB: Yes. And then so you did eight ops with 170. How many ops did you do with 582? That was more wasn’t it?
JQ: Yes it was.
CB: But while you’re looking that up when you joined 170 you had the first op was as second pilot.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: With Pathfinders did they do the same thing?
JQ: No. Straight in.
CB: Right. So when your Pathfinder activity came to an end, why was that?
JQ: The war finished.
CB: Right.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: And how did you feel at that point because it wasn’t the end of a complete tour of thirty ops was it?
JQ: No. It wasn’t. No.
CB: So did you feel short changed or what did you feel?
JQ: Glad the war was over. No. Didn’t worry too much really but, no. You’d got other things to think about and you’d come through. No. Sort of mixed feelings I suppose really. We were glad the war was won.
CB: Were there any major raids you went on as a Pathfinder?
JQ: Well it depends what you call a major raid.
CB: Well -
JQ: And I don’t know which one we could -
CB: On the really large cities. Berlin.
JQ: Oh I didn’t go to Berlin.
CB: Right.
JQ: The reason for that was they did actually try it before we joined Pathfinders and it wasn’t a success because they lost a lot of planes doing it because the fighters, their fighters were so much faster than the thing and you got all that time to get to Berlin.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And back again.
CB: No.
JQ: And Berlin was really Mosquitoes all the time.
CB: Right.
JQ: Towards the end when I -
CB: For Pathfinding.
JQ: Well for anything really.
CB: Right.
JQ: I think they did the odd one or two to Birmingham but er to Berlin but I went to the major cities. Hanover. I think that, when we were on our own, was Hanover.
CB: And the Ruhr.
JQ: Ruhr all the time because that’s near, that was near that was an easy one.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I think the longest one I ever went on was a nine hour trip but I can’t remember where that was too. Somewhere in the north of Italy somewhere.
CB: Ah right. So it was Turin was it? The raids in Italy.
JQ: If I could spot it I would know.
CB: In the Lancaster you could fly over the Alps could you? Or did you have to fly around them?
JQ: I don’t think, I don’t think we flew anything direct. We usually went around things you know because if you were direct they knew you were coming.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Yeah. I’ve got one there. Seven and a half. That was Dessau, wherever that is. [pause] Mannheim. [pause] Essen of course [pause] Bremen. Dahlen. Hanover [?] Lutzendorf, wherever that is.
[pause]
CB: Oh a bit of variety. So now the war is finished. It’s the 8th of May 1945. What happened to the squadron and your flying?
JQ: Now wait a minute. Did you say the 8th of May 1945?
CB: The Europe, the war in Europe is finished.
[long pause]
JQ: Yes. That’s right. Well -
[long pause]
JQ: On the 4th of April we did an op to Lutzendorf.
CB: And you did some raids, some ops after that for the month because May, we’re talking about 8th of May and what you did after that?
JQ: Well on May the 3rd
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Much to our surprise because the war hadn’t finished they said, ‘You’re going food dropping.’
CB: Oh yes. Right. So you did Operation Manna in Holland.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
JQ: Nobody’d done it. Certainly not to our knowledge anyway. Two hundred feet. Which is low.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: To drop food at Rotterdam.
CB: Is this over the city or in the countryside?
JQ: In the countryside. Well near enough Rotterdam you know and -
CB: Is that in the bomb bay or was it chucking it out of the door?
JQ: No. No. What they, they sprung it on us really. We’d. I think the negotiations had begun before that but we didn’t know anything about it and we were still in in a bombing mode.
CB: Right.
JQ: You know, and we were still practicing for it as we always did and they said, ‘Right, you’re food dropping at two hundred feet and the Germans have promised not to fire.’ And we thought a likely story. So we set off on this thing. What they did was they had done a few tests and they’d found that it wasn’t really a practical proposition to sort of take a load of parachutes and have it dropping down by parachute. What they’d do would stick it in paper bags like a concrete bag that you’d have concrete powder in and stick stuff like powdered egg and grain and that sort of stuff you know. Flour and, in this bag and drop it from two hundred feet. Well of course the bag burst immediately so then they had a bright idea and they thought what if we put another paper bag around it what would happen and it didn’t. I presume if it went on top of a pole or something it would do.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JQ: You know. So then they got something like a football net behind a goal and they attached that to the bomb hooks or some of the bomb hooks in the bomb bay and then that gave something they could put all these bags in and then and we were able to close the bomb doors and then from then on it’s a bombing raid.
CB: Right.
JQ: You see, so it was done exactly the same. It was marked.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And from two hundred feet so we went over and did this and I was careful to put my altimeter, to put pressure on my altimeter highly correctly and off we went. When we got there, obviously being daylight, we could see all the aircraft and I was here and there was two or three aircraft in front of me, you know, only about a hundred yards away. There was one there and one there, one there, one there but slightly higher than me and I remember looking at my altimeter and thinking well they’re a bit high. I’m at two hundred feet. But of course your instruments vary a bit you know so I didn’t bother because I thought well I’m within twenty five, thirty feet of two hundred feet or they’re too high. One or the other you know. We’d come up to, up to the point and they released their bags. Well I had a hundred weight bags of this, that and the other flying past me like, you know I thought, God, you know I thought if one of those hits us we’re in for trouble.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JQ: You know there was nothing I could do about it.
CB: Yeah. You had to pull it back did you?
JQ: No. I didn’t. I just, we just kept going. I thought well even if I’d pulled back I couldn’t have missed one.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JQ: So anyway it all went down and it was, the Germans didn’t fire and it was highly interesting to see what the Dutch had done because there were Union Jacks all over the place.
CB: Oh were there?
JQ: Where they got them I’ve no idea. You’d see kids in a school, what looked like a school playground and on the ground in the playground there’d be this flat on the floor and they were all waving like the clappers and all out in the, a right reception they gave us.
CB: Yeah. Fantastic.
JQ: But all the time we wondered whether the Germans would fire but they didn’t so so that was that and I think there were one or two. We only did one but there were one or two like that.
CB: So you only had one sortie. You didn’t have to fly at low level to get there did you? You just had to let down -
JQ: Yeah.
CB: At the last minute.
JQ: If I remember rightly. Yes. In fact I’m sure that’s right. My common sense tells me that. Not my memory.
CB: Yeah. And for the drop you don’t want too much speed so what did you haul back to?
JQ: I can’t remember.
CB: But you did, you did throttle back.
JQ: A thousand probably because I mean we were so used to flying up, up high.
CB: No. I didn’t mean that I meant the speed. So you don’t want to be going at two hundred miles an hour dropping bags do you? You -
JQ: Oh yeah we did.
CB: Did you pull it back?
JQ: Yeah. We did.
CB: And just keep it at -
JQ: No we well -
CB: A hundred and fifty or something.
JQ: No. I didn’t pull it back.
CB: Right.
JQ: In fact we got, I don’t remember any instructions to pull it back. I don’t think it would make any difference anyway.
CB: I was thinking about the impact.
JQ: Well, they got from two hundred feet anyway so -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: It would have slowed a bit by then wouldn’t they?
CB: Yeah.
JQ: It seemed to work anyway.
CB: So after that the war ends.
JQ: After that we got sent, I got sent to Dunkeswell.
CB: Oh yes.
JQ: Which is in Devon.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And, oh I did do some, on May 15th I fetched some prisoners of war back from Juvincourt. Then I got sent to Dunkeswell.
CB: How many times, how many trips did you do? That was Operation Exodus wasn’t it? Bringing back POWs.
JQ: Yes it was. I’d forgotten that. Yes.
CB: How many trips of that did you do?
JQ: Only one.
CB: That was from Holland. Was it from Holland?
JQ: No. Well, Juvincourt. I can’t remember where Juvincourt is.
CB: Belgium.
JQ: Either France or Belgium I think.
CB: So you did one of those. So you went to Dunkeswell. What happened there?
JQ: Well we were supposed to be transferring on to Lincolns for the Japanese war.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: But it never happened. I did a bit of test flying there of Lancasters where I flew the Lancaster completely on my own. Usually with a couple of ground engineers or even one ground engineer because -
CB: What were you testing then?
JQ: The pilots had reported faults with -
CB: Ah.
JQ: With the thing and -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: It was either before they’d been put right or after or both, you know. I remember taking off in one thing and I checked all around outside and as soon, as soon as I took off one of the wings dropped so I immediately corrected it and I found instead of being like that, straight and level, I was flying like that and it worked perfectly well. The only thing about it was that I couldn’t get any farther that way I’d really got to go this way and go all the way around and -
CB: What did that turn out to be?
JQ: Well –
CB: A spanner left in the plane?
JQ: No. A trimming tab on the aileron.
CB: Right.
JQ: Was bent up too much or down too much. I can’t remember which way now. Something quite simple really but I mean you know unless you knew quite what, what you were doing.
CB: Right.
JQ: And if you panicked and tried turning even faster you might get yourself into trouble. I realised you couldn’t get that way anymore so I went this way.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: But of course when you’re coming in to land it doesn’t help you know you’re coming in to land -
CB: Of course.
JQ: Like this. Well if I want to go that way I’m going to use my rudders or something.
CB: I’ve had an elevator trimmer go myself and run out of stick movement.
JQ: Yes.
CB: When you don’t know what it is it’s disconcerting.
JQ: Yes.
CB: So after Dunkeswell then what? Did you have to, how long did you stay in the RAF before you were demobbed.
JQ: No longer than I could help after that, you know. Having made -
CB: Right. Was that the end of flying? Dunkeswell.
JQ: Decided that was it. That wasn’t the end of flying for me but -
CB: No. No. But in the RAF.
JQ: In the RAF.
CB: When was your last sortie with the RAF?
[long pause, turning pages]
JQ: It appears to be January the 18th 1946.
CB: Ok.
JQ: And I was actually, what happened then, after that, I was taken off flying. I got sent back to my old Little Staughton.
CB: Oh.
JQ: Which rather surprised me and I had an even, even bigger surprise when I got there because when I’d left it it was a thriving bomber station and when I came back there were about no more than a dozen people in the sergeant’s mess and about three of us in the officer’s mess and two of them had been there quite a while and wanted to go on leave and so one of them said, ‘Well, here’s the key to the bar. You’re in charge. Goodbye.’ [laughs]. So although I never had the title I was virtually CO. Only for a short time. Only about a fortnight, something like that and then, then I was demobbed.
CB: From Little Staughton.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: What did you do after that? Because you’d done engineering before you joined the RAF. So what did you do when you left the RAF?
JQ: Well I thought I didn’t want to go back to the job I was in because I’d started wrong anyway because I went into the drawing office and although I did alright in it and understood what I was doing I’d really started wrong because to go in to a drawing office you really ought to start on the floor, not in the drawing office, on the floor doing engineering stuff and I realised that that was the way I ought to have done it so I thought, no, I didn’t want to go back there. So I cast around for a bit and the Ministry of Labour, as it was in those days, wanted, they ran, ran a course. They realised there were a lot of people in the services, particularly officers who had gone in at a young age as I had and hadn’t got any experience of business. So they thought well if we give them some experience of business perhaps we can slot them in to the employment lot and they’ll know what they’re doing you see and they’ll have caught up a bit so I thought well that’s a good idea so I applied. They didn’t take everybody but I applied and they accepted me and I went down to Worcester and it was a three week course if I remember rightly. They taught us, well, quite a lot of stuff. Accountancy. You know, a bit of this and a bit of that and a bit of the other and quite good. And then if you wanted to you could apply then for a speciality course which was another three weeks and that you could be put out with a firm and they could teach you about what went on at their firm and if they liked you or wanted you and what not they could take you on and possibly would take you on. So I thought I’ll have a go at that so I had a go at that and went through all that and, and then said, ‘I’d like to,’ oh apart from the people who you were with for the speciality, no wait a minute, yes, apart from the people you were with on the speciality course the ministry, if they didn’t want you the Ministry of Labour would find you a thing. And the chap, chaps that I was with didn’t, didn’t want me so I applied to the Ministry of Labour for them to find me. So they said, ‘Oh yes. We’ll find you somewhere.’ Nothing happened. And then I queried it a bit and they sent me to someplace that, you know, I thought blimey if I come here I’m really going down you know. You know. Real Dickensian stuff you know.
CB: Oh. Sweatshop.
JQ: So I thought well this is a right thing so I said, I had a bright idea and I went around and I said, ‘Can you give me a pile of your leaflets?’ And they said, ‘What do you want a pile of leaflets for?’ And I said, ‘I’ll find my own.’ Well they thought that was a jolly good idea. Saved them a lot of bother you see. So they gave me a pile of these leaflets and I went around to people I thought might be likely and asked to see somebody and most of the time they didn’t because they didn’t, you know didn’t know what I was about so I’d leave a leaflet and what not and one of them turned up. It was in printing and my grandfather as I told you was in printing.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: So I I went there and I did quite well.
CB: Locally.
JQ: I did, I went into the office, I didn’t go to the actual printing. I went into the office and I took up, doing a night course on costing which I did. Printers had a costing system so I did that and the people who were running this who were the British Master Printers Federation they, when I’d finished they said, ‘Well we’re short of a teacher in Birmingham. You wouldn’t like to do it would you?’ Because I’d, it was three certificates you got and I’d got all three so I said yes. So I taught that for three years until I got tired of it. And then one day I called on, oh I got on to the sales side of that, for that thing then and they gave me a car, a small car and then I called on a customer one day and it was a woman customer and she said, ‘My managing director wants to know if you know anybody that’s interested in a job in printing.’ So I said, ‘Well I’m in printing.’ She said. ‘Yes. That’s why I said it.’ So I said, ‘Who is it?’ And she said, ‘I don’t know he hasn’t told me.’ So I applied for it and got it and it was for a big printing company Sir Joseph Causton.
CB: Oh right.
JQ: And so I applied for that and I got that and the rest is history. I did, did quite well and they gave me a car, and then a bigger car, and a bigger car and then I thought well I’m driving a lot around in this car I could fly around. So I said, I said to the sales director, ‘What about it?’ He said, ‘Good idea. Yeah. Why not.’ So I did that a bit and then, and I’d got my own aeroplane by then.
CB: Oh had you?
JQ: So I thought well if I did use it for business they paid the expenses. I thought well they might as well own it why don’t I sell it to them? So I sold it to them the aeroplane.
CB: Oh did you?
JQ: And used it on the proviso I could use it for private means if necessary provided I paid the costs so they agreed to that and then we were taken over and I ran into trouble then because we were, we got in to a sort of recession and they said, ‘Well we’ll have to cut the aeroplane down,’ So I bought it back off them and used it privately and in the end I found that I wasn’t using it as much as I was paying. It was costing me in those days three thousand pounds a year if I never moved it out of the hangar.
CB: Really. Crikey.
JQ: So if I moved it out the hangar but I did quite a lot of things like I found that flying for business was a lot more demanding than flying for the RAF apart, you know, in the war of course.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Because the RAF I mean they’re sensible. I mean I can remember being up in the, being up in my aircraft over Norfolk way on one occasion flying on business and I looked down and there was all these highly specialised aircraft and I can’t think what they were now.
CB: RAF ones.
JQ: RAF ones. Lightnings.
CB: Oh yes.
JQ: I don’t mean the old Lightning that they had.
CB: Right.
JQ: I mean the new ones.
CB: P1 yeah.
JQ: And they were all on the ground. I was up in the blinking air tossing around like mad and things like that you know and I found that you had to be, you had to be a lot more smart as well because in the RAF you got things like defrosting and that sort of thing and you can’t afford to buy that sort of thing in the light aircraft. Apart from the weight. So in the end I found that I wasn’t using it as much as I’d think so I thought I’d better give it up so I did. And in a sense, in a sense I’m still a pilot because although I haven’t got a licence -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: You know in all this post that comes through your door, all these catalogues I get, I get it all the time or when it comes to the door I pile it here and I pile it there.
CB: Nice one. Nice one. Nicely said. So when did you retire eventually from the printing world?
JQ: I think I was about oh I did, I have left a bit out which I forgot for a minute because I went, this Sir Joseph Causton and the aeroplane whatnot I retired from Sir Joseph Causton, buying my car off them as I, as I went, at a cheap rate.
CB: Right.
JQ: And I hadn’t been retired that long and a chap rang me and he said, ‘John,’ he said, ‘I’ve got somebody who wants me as, as a salesman,’ he said, ‘But I don’t want it. I wondered if you’d like to start up again,’ you see. So I thought I’d investigate this. So I did and I thought I don’t want to be employed any more. I’ve had my time but anyway I went to see them. They were in [pause] what’s that new town down south? Down your way.
CB: What, Milton Keynes.
JQ: Milton Keynes. They were in Milton Keynes or near it. Yeah. It was Milton Keynes. I went down and I said, ‘Well,’ you know, ‘I am interested but I don’t really want to be employed by you. I’ll employ myself and you can pay me a –
CB: They could pay you a fee.
JQ: A fee for it.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: So that’s what I did for some years and did alright at that too. So that’s it really.
CB: When did you eventually -
JQ: So I must have been about –
CB: Retire?
[pause]
JQ: Seventy, seventy, seventy two. Something like that.
CB: I’ve just got two extra questions that you prompted me with earlier.
JQ: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: One was to do with baked bean tins.
JQ: Baked bean tins. Yes. Yes. We had a thing apart from the elsan toilet that we’d got in the back like every other Lancaster.
CB: In the Lancaster. Yes.
JQ: We didn’t actually use it to be quite honest. But then we never had the same Lancaster anyway. You could get one or the other or whatnot. But, but people did use it but we we had that the engineer organised this. He always used to have a baked bean tin and where he got them from or why we could get baked beans during the war I’ve no idea, but this used to be passed around. You know, anyone who wanted a pee you didn’t have to get up. He’d come along with the baked bean tin you see but of course it gets full so he had to, and so if possible it was kept until we were over the target and then tipped down the window chute.
CB: Just as a bonus for the target. Yeah.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: And the other was the cracked -
JQ: Oh well that was, that was -
CB: Bomb.
JQ: After the war while everything was still going but even though the war had finished, you know, this was at Little Staughton and we still did, you know, practicing because we, I mean the war with Japan was still going and we were sort of getting ready for that but you know everybody was still flying and that sort of thing but not in anger and the CO called me to see him one day so I went and saw him and he said, ‘Quine,’ he said, ‘We have a bomb in our bomb dump which has got a crack in it,’ he said, ‘And when the,’ he said, ‘It’s got a crack in it and the explosive is seeping out through the crack and crystallising,’ he said, ‘And when it gets into a crystallised state it gets a bit unstable and the bomb’s liable to go off,’ he said, ‘And we’d rather not a bomb go off in our bomb dump if you don’t mind,’ he said. ‘So what we’re going to do is we’re doing to load it into a Lancaster and ask you to fly it and drop it in the sea in the appropriate place,’ because there was an appropriate place for everybody to drop stuff if they had to so you know wondering why he’d picked on me for this job you know so I went around and I think it was something like a Sunday morning and there wasn’t a fat lot going on, I went around to see the crew half of whom were still in bed cause they didn’t want to do much on a Sunday and they they were highly delighted to get out of bed for this thing you see. So for some reason or other which I can’t remember I had to go up to the guardroom so I went up to the guardroom and the military policeman there who everybody loves as you know said, ‘Morning sir. Lovely morning.’ So I said, ‘Yes it is a nice morning.’ He said, ‘Nice night, nice day for a flight. Are you going for a flight sir?’ I said, ‘Yes, I am as a matter of fact.’ ‘I’d love to come with you.’ So without telling him why we were going I said, ‘Yes certainly. You can come with me if you want to.’ And he said, ‘Well I shall have to ask my superior.’ I said, ‘Well go and ask him then.’ So he disappeared in the back and he came back about a minute later and he said, ‘Yes that’s alright. He said I can come.’ I said, ‘Right 2 o’clock at dispersal.’ I told him where. So off we go and just before two the bomb’s been duly loaded. We could see that because the bomb doors were still open. You didn’t close them until, until you were about to taxi off. I didn’t tell him why and he didn’t ask why either or where we were going. I told the crew not to tell him and we took off and as soon as we’d taken off we told him and he went white. And so we flew out and dropped it without any trouble at all really. Quite gently we did it, I flew it out ‘cause I didn’t -
CB: I bet. ‘Cause none of you wanted to join your maker did you?
JQ: And of course I hadn’t inspected it and in any case I wouldn’t have known what sort of state it was in by looking at it, not being an expert on these things. So anyway, we dropped it and of course then he got his own back.
CB: Oh.
JQ: ‘Cause he’s a hero now you see. So, I mean, ‘I’ve been in an aircraft with a wonky bomb,’ you see.
CB: Amazing. Final question really and that is after the war a lot of people, air crew were sent on tours of Germany they called the Cooks Tours.
JQ: Cooks Tours.
CB: Did you do any Cooks Tours?
JQ: Yes. Did those.
CB: So who were the people who went? What was a Cook’s Tour and who went on it?
JQ: We flew out to the Ruhr as a rule. In fact it might have been all the time to the Krupp’s works at Essen which was a right sight. You should have seen it. It was a tangled mass. We really clobbered it. No doubt about that. And we were cleared to fly at two hundred feet and we’d get there and usually what I did was do steep turns around it because when you do a steep turn you can look down and got a really good view of it and most people seemed to enjoy that and having done that we just came back again.
CB: Yeah. But who were the people you took?
JQ: Now, the people we took were in the main were ground crew and they enjoyed it but we ran out of ordinary ground crew. I don’t know how many I did. I didn’t do that many but I did do some so we took some WAAFs. They decided they’d let the WAAFs come. We didn’t organise it so they were provided with sick bags and we did exactly the same as we always did. We went around, steep turns, around, out comes the sick bags whoo [laughs] and then we came back again and I think, I think if I remember rightly I think I think it was one of those, this business I’ve told you of the bomb aimer going to sleep when he was supposed to be map reading I think that was why we were at -
CB: Right.
JQ: Two hundred feet.
CB: Did you, how many did you take at a time and how did they actually get the experience of looking?
JQ: I think they enjoyed it and they all -
CB: But how many would you take at a time?
JQ: Oh it wouldn’t be, it wasn’t many. Four or five. And they’d be up, standing beside me and I’ve got a feeling some of them went down.
CB: And behind you. Yeah.
JQ: You’d get two at the side I think, to watch. To watch. I think you might get two in the bomb aimer’s position. I can’t remember exactly but I know we had some at the side and I think that’s where the others must have gone but we never had more than four or five.
CB: And they just sat on the floor.
JQ: Oh they sat on the floor on the way to and from.
CB: But your full crew was there was it?
JQ: Oh yeah.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: We had a full crew.
CB: Right. Ok. What was the most memorable part of your career in the RAF?
JQ: Blimey what a question [pause]. I can’t tell you. It’s all pretty memorable actually.
CB: Well you’ve done really well. So, John Quine thank you.
[machine paused]
JQ: The war. They didn’t look out we just -
JB: You just packed them in did you?
CB: How many could you carry in a -
JQ: They just sat on the floor in the back.
JB: Yeah.
JQ: And we gave them blankets.
JB: Right.
JQ: Which we took with us. I think it was about thirty or something like that.
JB: Really.
JQ: Because we hadn’t got, we hadn’t got any bombs on of course.
JB: No. No.
JQ: That’s why we were able to take a weight like that but I think, I don’t think they were in much comfort.
JB: No.
CB: But they just wanted to get back.
JQ: Yeah.
JB: So why were they special that they got -
JQ: Oh we never found out why.
JB: No.
JQ: Never heard.
CB: No. If you take the Buckingham, the airfields at Westcott and Oakley received fifty seven thousand POWs.
JQ: That’s amazing isn’t it?
CB: Yeah. In that operation.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Operation Exodus.
JQ: Yes. I remember the name Exodus.
CB: Yeah. Normally a Lancaster could take twenty five but that was really pushing it.
JQ: Well it could have been twenty five. It could have been. I said thirty but, you know I’m guessing a bit but I thought of something just now that I hadn’t told you. What question did you ask John?
JB: How many prisoners of war could you get -
JQ: Oh that’s right, you did.
JB: In a Lancaster.
JQ: Yeah. Now, I can’t just think. If I think in the next few moments I’ll -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Wakeford Quine
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-05
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AQuineJW160805, PQuineJW1603
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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02:48:07 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
John volunteered for the Royal Air Force as a pilot. He went to Lord’s cricket ground, followed by the Initial Training Wing at Scarborough. He spent 10 hours on Tiger Moths in Carlisle. After a short time at RAF Heaton Park in Manchester, John went to Moncton in Canada, subsequently training for six months in various places in America. He returned to RAF Harrogate, followed by RAF Windrush where John learnt to fly on Oxfords. At RAF Peplow, he flew Wellingtons and was picked by a crew to be their pilot. RAF Lindholme followed, where John spent some time on Halifaxes, Wellingtons, and then Lancasters.
John had his commissioning interview on the same day as his wedding and joined 170 Squadron at RAF Hemswell in December 1944 where he carried out eight operations. He describes one of the eight operations to Bottrop when they were hit by anti-aircraft fire but managed to return safely.
John volunteered for the Pathfinders and was posted to 582 Squadron at RAF Little Staughton, flying Lancasters. He explains how they initially acted in a supporter role before progressing to dropping flares and markers.
John took part in Operation Manna in Rotterdam and fetched some prisoners of war from Juvincourt in France. He then went to RAF Dunkeswell where he test flew some Lancasters before returning to RAF Little Staughton from where he was demobbed. He describes the Cook’s tours he did for groundcrew and WAAFs.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Devon
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Manchester
England--Scarborough
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Canada
United States
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Bottrop
Netherlands
Netherlands--Rotterdam
170 Squadron
582 Squadron
anti-aircraft fire
bomb dump
bombing
Cook’s tour
coping mechanism
crewing up
Halifax
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
love and romance
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF Harrogate
RAF Hemswell
RAF Lindholme
RAF Little Staughton
RAF Peplow
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/734/10732/ACattyMA180822.2.mp3
56b4756625ebdbc6366c390a3d646d10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Catty, Martin Arthur
M A Catty
Description
An account of the resource
19 items. An oral history interview with Martin Catty (b. 1923, 1802887, 164193 Royal Air Force), log books, photographs, service documents, maps, and folders containing navigation and Gee charts. He flew operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Martin Catty and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Catty, MA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: Start. Yes.
DE: Start so this is an interview with Martin Catty. My name is Dan Ellin. It’s the 22nd of August 2018 and we are at Riseholme Hall. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. So, Martin would you mind telling me a little bit about your early life and what you did before you joined Bomber Command?
MC: Yes. What I can recollect. I lived in Hendon in London and went to a prep school locally and then afterwards to a prep school in Surrey, at Crowthorne and then on to Highgate School in London where I was until we were evacuated to Westward Ho at the beginning of the war and we took over mostly what United Services College had left at Westward Ho. You know, Stalky and Co and all that. There was the Kingsley Gymnasium and places like that and we took over certain cafes for classrooms and, and so forth. And then after I had taken my O levels we got this visit from the RAF offering us a short course at university to do the Initial Training Wing stuff at, on the short course and study either engineering or other, other more academic subjects I suppose. Anyhow, and therefore that was lasting six months from, from April ‘42 to about September ‘42. I was at Pembroke College, Cambridge for that and then after that course where I apparently did, compared to some of the others quite well which meant that at the end of the war I was invited to go back to Cambridge University although to tell the truth I hadn't got the qualifications to do so. But I was invited back. Anyhow, so then I went to St John’s Wood where we joined the RAF proper. Got kitted out, inoculated and God knows what. Queued for about three hours in the basement of a St John’s Wood block of flats and then got posted to Sywell outside Northampton for grading. Pilot grading, you know. Where I was successful to be graded for pilot training. Then went up to [pause] No. We didn't immediately go up there. They had got all the transport at that time was being used for building up the Second Front. Therefore, we were sent up to Whitley Bay. The RAF Regiment place where they loved to get their hands on aircrew chaps [laughs] We were, I was very fortunate in being with a young Sergeant who really wanted to teach us things rather than take the Mick out of us. So we had a fortnight there and were promised Christmas leave afterwards. It was pretty awful actually because the quarters were bombed out houses, no windows, no hot water and just a blanket. So, it was and we were up in the morning, freezing morning in about December holding rifles, no gloves [laughs] Anyhow, it was. And then we were sent after that, after Christmas to Brighton which was the RAF Discip School where naughty pilots were disciplined and so forth and we spent about a fortnight there I think waiting for transport to turn up. The only, well visible thing I think [pause] I remember being put on jankers for something but I can't remember what it was for [laughs] And we won a drill competition so we were allowed leave to go to London where my parents lived. And then in, we were sent up to Heaton Park in Manchester which was a sort of transit camp on the way to Canada. And from there we went to West Kirby somewhere where we were, no, to Liverpool. We were taken out on a tender to a big ship on the, well a small ship on the horizon but as it got nearer and nearer it turned out to be the QE which of course was never fitted out as a passenger ship. It was fitted out immediately as a troop ship because it had only just been launched before the war. So we went out to Canada on that. About six hundred of us jammed into this little batch of cabins in the middle with about four bunks high. Twenty four to a cabin, I think and the whole ship, rest of the ship was empty except for the officers wives upstairs where I fortunately got as a duty baggage party which meant I went down the hold to get a trunk that some officer’s wife had said she didn't want during the journey and suddenly realised she did [laughs]. So we, well we, it was very easy manhandling because as the ship came down you could take a great big trunk, jam it on the companionway and then you could handle. It had the advantage that at the end of the trip when we landed at New York the rest of the people went straight up to Canada but we were given an extra day in New York to get the luggage and so forth and then taken up to Moncton in New Brunswick in Canada the next day. Or taken up, we were put on board a plane where the Canadian flight lieutenant wanted to impress us how good Canada was and we were treated very well. Then we walked into the camp and I remember being greeted by some corporal, ‘Oh, Catty MA. Martial Arts are you? Oh right.’ [laughs] So all my life I’ve been, wanting to be, I am now Master of Arts anyhow [laughs] but, and then we were posted to Virden in Manitoba. EFTS where we did the, obviously the Elementary Flying Training. We got through that alright. No problems really.
DE: What aircraft were you flying there?
MC: Tiger Moths.
DE: Right.
MC: Yeah. The Tiger Moths at Grading School of course was one without a canopy. Open cockpits. The one in Canada had canopies because of the very low temperatures we flew in even at low heights. I mean it was sometimes minus forty below. Things like that. So anyhow I got through that alright. In fact, I got the Ground School Award which I think stood me in bad stead later on but be that as it may [laughs] and got posted on to SFTS at Brandon which was not far from Virden actually. And then I was within about a month of completing the pilot’s course when I unfortunately was in the flight hangar when somebody arrived from Central Flying School to do, to grade the station and the chap they had selected to go up with him wasn't there so they sent me up with him and he didn't like it. In the end he said my flying was too mechanical. So I ceased flying training as a pilot, went to a manning depot, also in Brandon which was a terrible, well we were in a cattle market with about, God knows how many, four hundred people sleeping in a cattle market with bunks about four high and they’d got nothing to do with us except send us for route marches [laughs]
DE: Not very pleasant then.
MC: No. And of course, because we’d ceased flying training you lost your flying pay so we were on two thirds of the pay we were used to. So you could hardly afford to have a beer let alone anything else. However, that lasted about a month before I eventually got a posting to Winnipeg. Number 5 AOS. Where we flew Ansons which was not the plane I was on at the SFTS. That was a Cessna Crane. And well, I suppose I spent the usual course. When we graduated at the end of it we were not sent home because all the transport again was tied up with Second Front sort of thing and then they sent us, most unusually on leave.
DE: Right.
MC: Went to Niagara, went to New York. I had an uncle who lived in Stamford Connecticut so I went with him but they dressed for dinner so I couldn't stand that [laughs] I don't know why I'm telling you all this.
DE: No. It's interesting. It’s great stuff.
MC: Really? [laughs] And so, eventually we got on the Andes to come back from, I think it was, was it Halifax? I can't remember the port. Whatever. Which was basically an almost flat-bottomed thing designed for going up the Amazon and rolled like mad. Again, because I forgot to say this but when we went on the short course one of the promises was that when you graduated you'd be commissioned so of course we did get commissioned which meant of course we didn't get our uniform. So the people who didn’t get commissioned got flocked around by all the ladies of New York whereas we looked like erks and didn't get any.
DE: Oh dear.
MC: That didn’t matter. Anyhow, we left, I think on the 30th March ’44. The day of the Nuremberg raid because as we were sailing out of the harbour the 9:00 o'clock news came on and it said ninety odd of our aircraft were missing or something and we said, ‘Turn it around.’ [laughs] However, we eventually got back and went to Harrogate to get kitted and get the uniform and so forth. Just arrived in time to be best man at my brother’s wedding. My elder brother who was also in the RAF. I'd only had my uniform for about a week and then got posted to OTU at Chipping Warden. And there as I mentioned to someone else some of the aircraft were pretty ropey. They were Wellingtons. We called them Wimpies.
DE: Yes.
MC: 1Cs and things like that and one of them actually the wing fell off in the air, you know. So it’s, but I don't know, one I’ve accepted these things. And I crewed up, of course at that stage and I crewed up with this Canadian skipper, Flight Lieutenant Ness, Johnny Ness. There’s a photograph of him. I don't remember the actual process of being selected. Who went with whom. I think the skipper probably said, ‘Oh, that chap.’ I don't know but, so after getting crewed up etcetera at OTU, one or two weren’t because the Wimpy would not take seven people of course as crew. I think the gunners joined us later. Went to Con Unit, conversion to four engine aircraft at Stradishall and then on to Lanc Finishing School. LFS at Feltwell. Then got posted to Number 514 Squadron at Waterbeach and that's how I have arrived at Waterbeach.
DE: Right.
MC: And then we, I mean quite frankly at the time I got there which was about October ’44, somewhere like that it was, the chop rate had fallen right down to a very low rate. Something like five percent. Something like that. Whereas it was of course at times very, the chance of finishing a tour of opps was very [pause] but we were. So I’ve got to say it was a fairly easy time we had there. It was 3 Group and 3 Group concentrated on GH bombing. I don't know if you are aware of that. Basically, Gee was navigation which I think relied on ground stations sending out signals which the aircraft reflected and we bombed on GH which was the aircraft transmitting the ground through reflecting. I think I've got that the right way around. I'm not sure. So, in fact, as navigator since we did a lot of daylight raids over the Ruhr I used to release the bombs more than the bomb aimer. I think I did more daylights than night trips. I'm sure I did. The logbook will —
DE: We’ll have a look at your logbook.
MC: But I think I finished my tour in March, something like that and I joined, Waterbeach was also number 33 base which controlled two other stations. Mepal and Witchford I think, and I joined the base test crew which tested all Lancasters coming in to the base whether Waterbeach or going to one of the others as navigator which of course wasn't a very great amount of navigation to do. And that's where I more or less was when as I hear [John Toddy], the chap I flew with on Lancasters who I was very pally with said to me, ‘I volunteered you for ferrying aircraft, Lancs out to the Far East.’ And it was going to be done in three stages. UK to Egypt, Egypt to India and India to Burma or wherever they were going to be used. But in, so having been sent to Morecambe to get kitted out with, I mean, you know, shorts and everything else and having inoculations, Yellow Fever, goodness knows what else they cancelled it because it was obviously getting to the stage, getting near VJ Day and it wasn't needed anymore. But we were, being in [unclear] by that time. We went to Talbenny in Wales first. I think, I can’t remember, again, it was number 1630. Anyhow, whatever unit we were and then that was transferred to Dunkeswell in Devon which was an American base up to that stage. One of the things of course that may be amusing I don't know but we found a whole lot of lovely American leather boots. You know, booties or whatever you want to call them. They were wonderful. And they were all left foot. There wasn’t a right foot amongst them [laughs] which wasn’t very [laughs] Anyhow, that’s just in passing. From there on our crew got selected to take a ground crew from Air Ministry out to the Middle East to train all the various Middle East ground crew stations how to service Lancs. So we took the Lanc out to [Khormarksar]. Whatever. Wherever we landed we’d say goodbye chops see you in a fortnight's time. They did their job teaching the crews and we did well when we went where we liked. More or less. Although it was the time of the troubles. We had to wear sidearms. You know, the Palestine and Israel. Palestine troubles. Went to several stations out there. Shaibah. In fact, I had my birthday at Shaibah if I remember rightly. And well eventually got back obviously at Christmas. And a little tale, I don't suppose it’s really amusing but we, in Cairo a Liberator landed and we knew the crew because they were from Waterbeach. And so we got flown back supernumerary crew to Waterbeach. So we went out to the brewery tap there where we knew the landlord and the skipper produced a bottle of Curacao or something like that and said, ‘Here you are lad. This is for you.’ And the voice from the back, which turned out to be the Customs man said, ‘That doesn't look like fresh fruit either.’ [laughs] Right. So thereafter my skipper got demobbed and I was, well in time I got crewed up or went as navigator with Wing Commander Tubby Baldwin who, we were flying an Anson 19, I think it was, out to Cairo to Misr Airlines. It was fitted out as a passenger aircraft. So we lobbed down in several places on the way obviously. Got to Cairo and ended up, I ended up training as instructing pilots in BABS, Blind Approach Beacon System. The radar system that had just been brought out and I went to Melbourne in Yorkshire and Bramcote in Warwickshire, you know. Obviously, there was a pilot with the pilot training. We were telling them what to do and how to use it and so forth. And that's how I ended my career in the RAF.
DE: Right. So when were you, when were you released? When were you demobbed?
MC: Either September, October. I think it was October ‘46 when I went up to Cambridge because they’d asked me if I’d like to go back.
DE: Right.
MC: And I managed to do it on normal release. I didn't have to take out Class B release did they call it or something where you went for early release. But anyhow I spent three years at Cambridge which I did some studying. But I really wasn't qualified because I hadn't got the maths training. It was really necessary. Particularly at Cambridge for an engineering course because not only did you now have to use a formula. You knew how to, you were taught how to derive the formula. You know, you were never taught really how to use things.
DE: Right.
MC: So, anyhow that was my, the end of my service with the RAF.
DE: So, what did you do after university?
MC: I went as a, to GEC in Birmingham, Witton, Birmingham, on a graduate apprenticeship course and then took jobs in management supervisory sort of rather than using my engineering studies as such where more my training to be able to think things through. And stayed in, if you like in management until we moved around once or twice but I stayed with GEC the rest of my career.
DE: Ok. Wonderful.
MC: I think I held the very rare distinction of turning a Tiger Moth upside down.
DE: Oh, you must tell me about that.
MC: Well, I was out solo. Out solo and I saw this black line on the horizon. I thought that's a bit strange. What's that? And then it got bigger and bigger and I suddenly realised it was a dust storm approaching. Fortunately, I was upwind of the station so I just landed as the storm hit us. The wind was so great that my ground speed landing was something like five knots or ten knots and it was very [pause] and you know you, and you were surrounded so as I turned across wind to go towards the flight hangar, the wind got under the tailplane, lifted the tailplane, got under the wing and the tailplane went over so slowly. I heard the, there was a fuel gauge on the top wing of a Tiger Moth and that went and then the prop broke and there I was upside down. Nothing on the clock. And the ground crew came out and said, ‘Oh, okay. Are you alright?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, I'm glad as you came you didn't release your belt. The last chap who did this fell down and broke his hip.’ [laughs] So, and then I was released out and then the doc came out, the MO. ‘Taxiing accident?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Do you feel alright?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Cheerio.’ By that time the ground crew had gone. There I was in the middle of the ‘drome with my parachute slung over my shoulder walking back all the way to the flight. Fortunately, I was greeted by the flight commander who said. ‘Don't worry Martin. I’ve done it in a prop myself.’ He said, ‘The ground crew should have been on your wing almost as soon as you'd landed. It wasn't your fault.’ So I didn't get any trouble from that.
DE: So, no black mark against you.
MC: No. So I don't think there are any more interesting, well if that's of interest I don't know but be at that as it may.
DE: Is it OK if we just go back through a few things?
MC: Yes. Certainly.
DE: I’ll ask you a few questions.
MC: Yeah.
DE: You know, you said that when, I think you were in Brighton you, you were put on jankers.
MC: Well, I can't remember why I was put on jankers. I think some cheeky remark I made of some sort and some Warrant Officer heard it and it wasn't too bad. It was peeling potatoes and things like that you know but of course the other thing I don't know what the local population said because we were up early and the PE instructor would take us for drill before breakfast and he sang, ‘Come on you wankers.’ [laughs] And the local population [laughs] had to listen to this. However, and then at Brighton we, as I say we managed to be the Flight that did the best drill so we were given a pass to have a forty eight hour pass for the weekend in London. But the actual reason I can’t because we were stationed in the Grand Hotel but we ate in the Metropole Hotel. I can't remember much more about it.
DE: Never mind.
MC: Yeah.
DE: Could you tell me a little bit more about what life was like at Waterbeach?
MC: Yeah. Well, it was very pleasant. The food was good. Mind you I was obviously commissioned so in the officer’s mess and therefore we were just, I would say we had twice as good food as the general population if not more. We were looked after very well from that point of view. You could get in to Cambridge very easily. There was transport in to Cambridge. It was an enjoyable life I’ve got to say. Ok. And at that time the operations were not that scary, you know.
DE: What were they like?
MC: Well, most of it I was, being a navigator I was immersed in my charts and Gee screens and things like that. Never looked out of the aircraft from one moment to the next and therefore, it was quite easy. Because of my flying experience and pilot training I used to give the skipper a bit of relief once we were over friendly territory and takeover the aircraft. In fact, there’s a picture of me sitting in the pilot's [pause] which was all very good but I’d be there for about half an hour or so until we were getting a bit nearer the station, the ‘drome and I had to get busy, get back and cook my log like mad as if I’d been actually navigating. Which was alright at times except a lot of the logs have comments on them. ‘You should have done more.’ Got more. And the reason I didn't was because I was piloting the aircraft [laughs] Which was alright. There was one time. Oh, by that time we had H2S, right, which the bomb aimer could was using to navigate us if you like while I was not navigating which was all very well until the one time he mistook, I'm not sure where maybe the Dutch thing. Anyhow, for Brussels and we arrived half an hour earlier than any other plane from the squadron which took a bit of [laughs] the nav officer said, ‘Why are your winds in a different direction to everybody else?’ However, that was life. It didn't worry one at all and I've got to admit that our operational life although we were doing, the tour was forty ops at that stage not thirty and in fact, the pilot used to do forty ops because his first op was one flying with another crew to get used to it. And the rest of the crew did thirty nine. Except I didn't of course because I volunteered to be a navigator to an Australian pilot who had, his navigator was ill. So I actually did forty trips. And that was a bit of a strange crew. However —
DE: What way was that strange?
MC: Well, I'm not sure that I should tell you [laughs] In the sense that once they got up to operational height they all lit fags. Now, that was completely verboten basically but, so I didn't join them I might say partly because I probably didn't have any with me [laughs] So what? They were still a very efficient crew. Darby Monroe was his name.
DE: I know there was some American aircraft and the stories go they had ashtrays.
MC: Really? Yeah. Well, of course one of my problems which were, you know, I’ve always from my very early days I had bladder problems and it was great that the Lanc had an Elsan at the back. When I, it's very strange, probably the first half hour I would want to go about four or five times. The rest of the trip I didn't. It didn’t happen. However, and of course well I've got to say that by and large it was a very enjoyable time on operations. The only thing I ever really saw was to feel the ack ack you know under the aircraft and so forth. We lost an engine once but nothing more than that. So we had a very good, I mean he was a good skipper, Johnny Ness and he was considerably older than I was but we got on very well together and I wonder what has happened to him since but, and of course as soon as we finished the tour he got posted to Canada. Back to Canada whereas I stayed on the station. [pause] Anyhow, that’s my war experience.
DE: Ok. You mentioned it was very easy to get into Cambridge. What, what sort of things did you do when you weren’t on ops and you had some, had some time?
MC: Went to pubs [laughs] I was not a dancer so I didn't go dancing. And well, went to one or two films and things like that. But I don't really recollect that much about it except one used to drink quite a lot in those days and if you weren't going to Cambridge you went to the bar and drank it there [laughs]. But I actually met my wife at a mess party at, in the officer’s mess and when I went back to Cambridge we hooked up again and eventually got married. In fact, I got married as an undergraduate because I was on a grant of course and you got an extra, you got a married grant if you got married. I mean we —
DE: Makes sense.
MC: Were really looked after. No. We were looked after very well. But obviously partly because at school I went up the Classics side of things and only swapped to the science side because I was looking at the stage or my father was looking to get me in the Navy but in the end I went and my brother being in the RAF anyhow, and he was stationed around here. Fiskerton, I think. 49 Squadron. Which I think Coningsby maybe. Fiskerton. Scampton. Somewhere. I think all those names ring a bell to me.
DE: Right.
MC: To me.
DE: Yeah. So he joined the RAF a few years ahead of you.
MC: Two years to the day. Our birthdays are the same. Two years apart.
DE: And that's what? 13th of November.
MC: November. Yes. I was born on his second birthday.
DE: Oh wow. Easy to remember then.
MC: Yeah. But it had the snag that we got joint birthday presents.
DE: And it's close to Christmas as well.
MC: Yeah. However, but he had a very, much more, he was squadron nav officer anyhow. I think for 49 Squadron.
DE: And he flew Manchesters as well as Lancasters.
MC: Well, yes I think he started on Wimpies and then went on to Manchesters and then of course fortunately the Lanc came along and they were very glad to see the end of the Manchester. It was underpowered. The only other aircraft I think, aircraft that had a bit of a quirk was the Stirling which had gravity feed fuel feed. So if you turn the Stirling at a very steep angle or even upside down the engines would cut out [laughs]. Oh well. Anyhow you've got me talking a long time.
DE: No. No. Yeah. You’re doing, doing fantastically. You've been going nearly forty minutes. A couple of other questions. When we were looking at some of the things that you've brought in you said, you mentioned the intelligence officer, was it Tommy Thompson?
MC: Yes. Yes.
DE: Could you tell me a bit about him? What was he like? What was his job?
MC: Well, basically, of course, he came to every briefing and gave any intelligence about extra dangers on the way across or anything like that but he also he and his staff interviewed us as we, after we landed and he went through the trip and so forth. But he was a very good friend and we used to play snooker and have a drink together. But he was a nice chap. He wasn't aircrew. He was ground crew but he was, I got on very well with Tommy. I didn't, well I’m just trying to think of what other interaction there was with him. I don't [pause] No. Just a good pal in the mess.
DE: Right. Yeah. Did you know any of the other ground staff?
MC: Well, there was, the other person who wasn’t ex-flying was of course the adjutant. He was, I didn't know him very well but knew him by name. And probably the, we were exceptional in the RAF that we used to take our ground crew out for drinks in the village at Waterbeach. Meet them at a pub and take them for an evening drinks which was un, sort of other Services the officers would not socialise with other ranks whereas we were quite happy to do that. I mean we knew we relied on them anyhow. The only time I had any other problem with, I think ground crew was, I'm not sure which raid it was, a long distance one and the bomb aimer was doing the bombing because it was out of range of GH. Out of the range of Gee. And we, he opened the bomb doors and I actually said, ‘We're not there yet.’ You know. So he closed them again until we got to the target area. He’d seen a dummy target of some sort and unfortunately the camera took a picture of the bombs away when it actually opened the bomb doors and didn't. The bombs weren’t away. So when we got home we were accused of being umpteen miles short of the thing and we said, ‘No. No.’ And it came around to this why you stick to your story and the corporal photographer will be put on a charge or you don’t. So, we did stick to our story [pause] I don't think there's anything else I can add.
DE: Did you have anything to do with the medical officer there?
MC: No. I wouldn’t think so. No. No.[pause] I can't recollect anything to do with him anyhow.
DE: Again, just before we started recording we had a little discussion about there was an explosion there. Can you —
MC: Yeah.
DE: Could you tell me any more?
MC: We were in briefing at the time actually. In briefing, and we suddenly heard this explosion and of course the op was cancelled, briefing was cancelled and so forth and we heard afterwards it was a bomb that had dropped and exploded. And of course, there were casualties. In fact, I did ask Peter Smith I think who was showing us around the IBCC whether he, he knew of that and he did seem to know of it.
DE: Yes. I believe the names of the people who lost their lives in that explosion are on the Memorial.
MC: Are they? Oh.
DE: Still on with, with things on the ground you said you took the, you went out with the ground crew for drinks.
MC: Yeah.
DE: Did you always have the same aircraft and the same ground crew?
MC: No, but we, there was one aircraft we flew more than others, I think. Probably, was it C for Charlie? I can't remember. But there was that particular ground crew that we knew anyhow because they were, you know, in attendance when we got to the aircraft and so forth. So, we knew. We knew them and we used to invite them up probably once a month or something like that, you know. Not that regularly but just locally to the village, you know where there were plenty of pubs [laughs].
DE: Fantastic. What happened to your brother? Did he manage to finish his tour?
MC: He did finish. In fact, he seconded to BOAC and then in fact joined BOAC and flew with them out to South Africa as navigator and so forth and other places. But, South America mainly actually he flew come to think of it and on, oh, I don't know. What was it? No. I don’t know what his aircraft was but, and then he I think he was still with them when they became British Airways. Then they didn't want navigators anymore because the navigation in the Western Hemisphere had got to a stage, beacons and so forth and therefore he emigrated to New Zealand and joined Air New Zealand to train other navigators out there. But he, he had a far more torrid operational experience than I did.
DE: Yeah.
MC: Without a doubt. And he was 5 Group in this area.
DE: Yes.
MC: Whereas I was 3 Group, of course in, around the Cambridge area. And it was 3 Group who did the GH bombing basically.
DE: Yeah.
MC: So, as I said earlier I think I released the bombs as much as the bomb aimer did on [pause] but it was something one did. You didn’t have to think about it too deeply. And I suppose we all thought Bomber Harris was a hero and he stuck to his guns. But —
DE: What do you think about the way the Bomber Command and Harris and the campaign has been remembered?
MC: Well, it was, I've got to say that after a year or two one did wonder what one, what one was doing. Was it right or was it not? And, and of course that was general. I mean, that’s why Bomber Command took a long time to be recognised. Because people didn't want to talk about it and they were of course one or two instances where things, the firestorms and so forth were shocking. But actually, at the time one did what was one’s duty sort of thing but afterwards one wondered was it right. Anyway, who can tell? After the war of course, after VE Day we flew some food out or food parcels to the Netherlands and took about, about a dozen, I think Belgian refugees back to Brussels. Flew them back. One of whom was Mrs five-by-five and really because she was quite a considerable weight the skipper insisted that she go forward of the main spar. Now, I don't know if you know the main spar but like I say —
DE: Yes.
MC: But there was no way she was going to get over this and so we had to get hold of her leg and put her leg over to one side and then lift her up and rock her over it. The number of petticoats she was wearing [laughs] Oh dear. We got there anyhow but to see their faces and their joy when they saw they were over their own country was fantastic. But that was quite an exercise. Then of course we flew back some prisoners of war. Twenty four on a trip I think. And, and then it, I can't remember the name of the station we landed at but anyhow —
DE: What was that like? Flying them home?
MC: Oh, ok. They were, they were quite subdued I'd say really and obviously one was doing one’s own thing and therefore one didn't really get that much to talk to them. Again, of course they were very happy to come back home. In fact, my wife's, my brother’s wife’s brother-in-law was a prisoner of war in the RAF. Yeah. He, and when he came back we used to, he lived in Malvern and we used to go out with him, He ended up as my bank manager [laughs] which was quite useful. He studied while he was actually a prisoner of war and [pause] That must be the end I think. I must have dried up by now surely.
DE: Ok. Well, unless there’s anything else that you can think of to tell me.
MC: Well, I can't think there's anything else that would interest. Well, I mean, with John Tully in Devon. He could drink a pint of scrumpy and a pint of bitter and all the locals were waiting for his legs to fold. They didn't. And he had us lost in town. He drove us back to Dunkeswell. The next morning he would say, ‘Martin, what did we do last night [laughs] You know. Before any drink driving. But in fact, there was nothing on the roads really at that stage.
DE: No.
MC: One often wonders where they, what happened to them since and so forth. I went to one or two squadron reunions but in the end I went to them and I hardly knew anyone there. So they’ll say they were at Waterbeach or [pause] and Waterbeach of course was taken over by as an Army training place. We did have a little museum there but what's happened to that I don't know. Right. Well, I can't think.
DE: Well, I’ll switch it off. It’s just quite often what happens is I’ll press stop and then you'll say, ‘Oh, there's another thing. Thank you very much.
MC: Well, I –
DE: It's wonderful to talk to you.
MC: I don’t think it’s been much use to you but be that as it may. It’s memories disjointed and so forth.
DE: No. It's been marvellous. Thank you very much.
MC: Oh right.
DE: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Martin Arthur Catty
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACattyMA180822
Description
An account of the resource
Martin Catty grew up in London and was evacuated to Westward Ho! with his school at the beginning of the war. He completed a short training course at Cambridge University in 1942 and joined Air Force. After training he flew 40 operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron from RAF Waterbeach. He describes how many of his operations were in daylight and using GH, so he often released the bombs. He mentions turning a Tiger Moth upside down after landing in a dust-storm during training, and how he ‘cooked’ his navigation log after he had taken control of the aircraft to give his pilot a rest. He recalls flying with another crew who smoked in the aircraft and discusses using the Elsan. Discusses some of the ground personnel and an explosion after a bomb fell from an aircraft at RAF Waterbeach in 1944. He became the navigator for the RAF Waterbeach base test crew after his tour, and after the war he flew as part of a ferry crew, taking ground crew to the Middle East, and also was an instructor for landing using the blind approach beacon. He was demobbed in October 1946 and completed a degree in engineering. Discusses his elder brother who also flew as a navigator and then flew for BOAC. He worked in management roles for The General Electric Company until he retired.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Manitoba--Brandon
Manitoba--Virden
Manitoba--Winnipeg
New Brunswick--Moncton
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Westward Ho
England--Yorkshire
Israel
United States
New York (State)--New York
North Africa
New York (State)
New Brunswick
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Devon
Manitoba
Format
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00:51:53 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
3 Group
514 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
entertainment
evacuation
Gee
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
love and romance
Manchester
military discipline
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Feltwell
RAF Stradishall
RAF Waterbeach
sanitation
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
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8807da74335bcda436a16157b4b0b803
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1360/22528/ARobertsM200219.1.mp3
4c037fe59803bd6d7d0272b3b5beb8d7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Roberts, Maurice
M Roberts
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Maurice Roberts (1920 - 2020, 1095576 Royal Air Force), who flew with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-02-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Roberts, M-2
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: This is an interview with Maurice Roberts whose service number is 1095576, who was a sergeant pilot and later a pilot officer during the Second World War with, he did his operational tour with 51 Squadron. The interview is being conducted by me, Harry Bartlett on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre at Mr Robert’s home address on Wednesday the 19th of February and the time now is 11:15. Mr Roberts, or can I call you Maurice?
MR: Yeah. Maurice.
HB: Thanks ever so much for agreeing to this interview. It’s, it’s a pleasure to be here to do this with you. We’ve had a bit of a chat before the interview so I’ve got a fair idea and I’ve obviously got your logbook but before we get to the actual war can you just, would you mind just telling us just a bit about yourself Maurice?
MR: Yeah.
HB: Where were you born?
MR: I was born in Manchester actually. And when I was twenty years of age I joined the RAF. That was in 1940.
HB: Yeah.
MR: When I joined the RAF. I never went back to Manchester because I met my, we used to, I was flying at which is now an industrial estate, was a flying field at Braunstone and I was flying Tiger Moths there. Met my wife and we got married in ’45 after I finished my tour and I, you know I’d known her for many years, but I decided that I wouldn’t marry. We wouldn’t get married until I finished my tour. So we married in ’45. So we’ve been married seventy five years now.
HB: Wow.
MR: And I went to South Africa. After I, after I’d met her and we became friends I went to South Africa and did my EFTS and SFTS there.
HB: Can I, can I just stop there Maurice?
MR: Yeah.
HB: When you, when you were in Manchester.
MR: Yes.
HB: Obviously you, obviously you were part of a family.
MR: Yes.
HB: What, how big a family did you come from?
MR: Well, there were five children. I was the latest one out of the five. They’re all dead now. And my eldest sister who was the first was twenty years older than me.
HB: Wow.
MR: And I have a niece now who’s over ninety, still living in Manchester. I’m in touch with her by telephone and I’ve been to see her, and we get on well together. We have a big family out there.
HB: Yeah.
MR: But I’ve no family here in Leicester.
HB: Yeah. What about schooling Maurice?
MR: Well, I went to Manchester Central High School, a grammar school and I was, I was a scholarship boy.
HB: Right.
HB: I was a bit out of my depth really socially because they were all fee paying members of this school and I was a scholarship boy.
HB: Right.
HB: And there was two of us actually who’d got to school, eleven plus. And, I presume I did very well in the eleven plus and I went to this school. But I didn’t go to university. I left at fifteen and got a job and started work really.
HB: What, what did you do for a job before the war then Maurice?
MR: Well, before the war I was, I was in, I worked for a firm called Salford Electrical Instruments. They were part of GEC.
HB: Right.
MR: It was a reserved occupation, but because I volunteered for aircrew I could get out of this, this you know being a reserved occupation. So I, and I left. Left the firm.
HB: So, yeah what was your process then for, because obviously you’re in a reserved occupation and you’ve decided you want to do your bit, or you want to join the Air Force, I presume? So what was your process for joining?
MR: Process? Well, I —
HB: How did you come to join?
MR: Well, I just wanted to, you know. Young men did.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I went to the Recruiting Office and said I wanted to join. I wanted to go into aircrew and they accepted me.
HB: Right. Right.
MR: Twenty years old and I was only a clerk actually in this firm of Salford Electrical Instruments.
HB: So, so you’ve gone down and you’ve joined the RAF.
MR: Yes.
HB: Right. And you’ve, you’ve got to do some training somewhere.
MR: Right. And my first training was at Babbacombe. Well, I joined up. Seven days I spent at Warrington.
HB: Right.
MR: Where you got a uniform and all that but what they call Initial Training Wing, ITW, I went to Babbacombe near, near Bournemouth.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I was about, there about six weeks, I think.
HB: Is that, was that you all square bashing?
MR: That’s right.
HB: And marching and all that sort of thing.
MR: Yeah, and getting our, yes there was no flying. It was just —
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: It was just as you say square bashing.
HB: Yeah. And then you went from Babbacombe. Did you do an assessment for flying or —
MR: No. I, no I had a medical exam.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I had an interview by several men. About five I think. I was interviewed for aircrew and they asked me questions like, ‘What is seventeen multiplied by thirteen?’ And I had to think about it in my head, what the, what the answer was, you know. Mentally.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And then they found, obviously they found out I was pretty, my mental ability was quite good and they, I, I passed the exam.
HB: Right.
MR: I had a medical exam apart from that. That was sort of to see that you were quick mentally I suppose.
HB: Yeah. So, so where, where did you, where did you progress from there after your interview? You’ve obviously been accepted for aircrew training.
MR: Yeah.
HB: At what stage did it become apparent you were going to be training as a pilot?
MR: Well [pause] well, at ITW. They were all potential pilots at ITW. Had the little flashes in your beret.
HB: Right.
MR: A little, little white flash in your beret so that you were, you were potential aircrew people.
HB: Right. And you went from the initial training wing, the ITW —
MR: Yes. I went to Canada first of all. To Canada.
HB: How did you get to Canada?
MR: Well, we went by ship.
HB: Wow, from, from —
MR: From, well the Gourock in Scotland. Gourock, I think.
HB: Right. Right. So you go off to Canada.
MR: Yeah. And then from Canada down to Florida.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I had some training with a civilian because they weren’t at war then. The Americans weren’t. And I had, and I spent some time flying with the Americans. Didn’t go very well though and we came back via Canada. Had to go back to Canada and then I came back to this country.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I had this Braunstone Aerodrome where I met my wife. My potential wife.
HB: Yeah. So when, when, when you first went to Canada did you go to one of the flying schools there?
MR: No.
HB: Before you went to Florida.
MR: No, no no. I went to just outside of Toronto.
HB: So you went to Toronto first.
MR: Yes. And then, and then from there to America.
HB: So just within a matter of weeks.
HB: That’s right. Yeah.
HB: You were off down to America. Yeah.
MR: And they were all civilian. Civilian pilots.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The instructors were civilians. And nobody was in, it was an American Air Force base but they were civilians who were, who were instructing you to fly.
HB: Right. What sort of aircraft were you flying Maurice?
MR: Well, the PT17s they were. They were like a Tiger Moth. Overgrown Tiger Moths they were.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So you were down there learning your flying skills.
MR: Yes.
HB: And you said it didn’t go all that well.
MR: Well, they used to curse and swear and things like that, you know. So some of us went, went, some, I have a friend who was an air commodore. He died only last year actually. Lived in Glenfield, and we used to play golf together and he, he was there too and he went on the Empire training. He went to Canada to train. He went from Canada to Florida. Then from Florida went back to Canada and was trained in Canada flying. Real, real flying in Canada where I went, I came home and went to South Africa.
HB: Yeah. So, so when you did your basic flying training in America.
MR: Yes.
HB: Whereabouts in America was that?
MR: In Lakeland. A place called Lakeland in Florida.
HB: In Florida.
MR: Lakeland. Yeah.
HB: Right. And that was all in civilian clothes.
MR: They were. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
MR: They hadn’t gone to war then.
HB: Yeah. And then you went back to Canada. Did you do any flying training in Canada?
MR: No. No. I didn’t. No.
HB: None at all.
MR: No. No. I went to a place called Moncton.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Under canvas.
HB: Oh blimey.
MR: Below, under forty degrees. Ten degree temperatures. Terrible. And then I came back to England and I did some more flying in, as I say Braunstone Aerodrome which is now an industrial estate. Braunstone isn’t, is no longer an aerodrome. But in 19 — I forget what year it was I met my wife in a tea dance.
HB: Right. I’m just curious. When you went [coughs] you went to Moncton and Trenton.
MR: Yeah.
HB: From, well according to your book —
MR: Well, Trenton —
HB: You were only there [pause] you were only there for two months.
MR: I forget what Trenton was really.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The name sounds familiar but it’s a long time ago. I don’t know why I was at, I remember Moncton but Trenton I don’t.
HB: In, in your, in your logbook it says something like if I’m looking at this right Riccall. R I C C A L L.
MR: R I C P?
HB: Ah. Could be P. Yes. Could be P.
MR: I don’t know.
HB: And that’s, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just, it just sort of, just for two months.
MR: Yeah.
BW: There. And then you came back and you went to, you went to Bournemouth.
MR: Yeah. That wasn’t near Bournemouth.
HB: Right. Because so when you first came back. Is that when you went to Braunstone?
MR: Yeah. Probably. You know, I can’t remember really very well.
HB: No. No. That’s fine.
MR: It’s a long time ago. It’s seventy years ago.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I remember being at Braunstone Aerodrome and meeting my wife.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And then from there we went to [pause] Where did we go? I went to South Africa. To Clairwood where we were under canvas there. We had about three months there doing nothing. Not doing anything really. Then went to Potchefstroom for EFTS. From Potchefstroom to Vereeniging for SFTS. And I got my wings when I, at Vereeniging.
HB: What was, what was the SFTS?
MR: SFPS?
HB: Yeah. SFP?
MR: In what context was that?
HB: Sorry. Oh sorry. I thought that was just initials. I do apologise. I thought that was just some initials you’ve given me and I hadn’t heard them before. Yeah. I’ve got Clairwood, Lyttelton, Potchefstroom.
MR: Vereeniging.
HB: Vereeniging.
MR: Then I came home.
HB: Yeah. Came back via Cape Town.
MR: Came back with my wings.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Got my wings there. Came back. Then I went on to, well, we went to Airspeed, to Chipping Norton flying Airspeed Oxfords.
HB: Right.
MR: Twin engine aircraft. And Wellingtons. And later on Wellingtons. Then Lossiemouth four engine aircraft. From Lossiemouth I went to the squadron when I picked up my crew. And then went to Lossiemouth trained up there on four engine aircraft, on Halifaxes. Then I was posted to a squadron. 51 Squadron.
HB: So your crew formed up at the Operational —
MR: No, before.
HB: Conversion Unit.
MR: Before I went to Lossiemouth.
HB: Right.
MR: I, I, you formed a crew. You went into a room with navigators and gunners and pilots all in this room and you chatted to people and eventually you got a navigator and a couple of gunners and a bomb aimer.
HB: Right.
MR: And then you went up to Lossiemouth and we all trained together on these, in Lossiemouth on these four engine, four engine Halifaxes.
HB: Yeah. So, so the crew that you ended up doing your tour with was that same crew that you formed up with?
MR: Well, apart from one young chap who came. He was, now what was he now? A flight engineer. That was it. And he was only about eighteen and we were only twenty, in early twenties but he was eighteen but somehow he seemed much younger. And he put me, on the Halifaxes, the first Halifaxes you had to go back and change the engines. You had four, four, four fuel tanks, you know in your wings and when one was empty it had to be changed to a full one on your trip. And this chap had to go and you used to say, ‘Right,’ Well, I told him to go back and change. Well, we’re on our way back from a raid and he put me on empty tanks and all engines cut out. We dived down. And he was too nervous. Ever so nervous this chap was. So, I said to him, he went back and I said, ‘This chap is no good. This flight engineer.’ And he went back to training school, this lad. But other than that I had the same crew.
HB: Right.
MR: Other than that one.
HB: Yeah.
HB: I got another flight engineer.
HB: So you went to the Conversion Unit and then you were posted to —
MR: 51 Squadron in Snaith, South Yorkshire.
HB: Yeah. I just had a quick look in your logbook and the, we are starting in —
MR: Well, I go. The first trip was I went with another crew as a pilot to see what it was like on a trip to Germany. That was the very first thing. I went with another crew to see. The very first thing and then I came back and then I flew an aircraft with my own crew.
HB: So I’ve got, I’ve got you down as 25th of October 1944 and that was with a Flight Lieutenant Ripper.
MR: Right.
HB: And you went that, well it’s in black, it’s in black ink so it looks like a daytime thing to Essen.
MR: Yeah. Well, I think —
HB: And you were second pilot as you say.
MR: Yeah. That was it. Well, I went —
HB: Yeah.
MR: Just to see what it was like, you know.
HB: Yeah.
HB: It was part of the training really.
HB: Yeah. Because, because I was interested in this. It’s one thing and again it’s something I’ve not seen before. On the 30th of October you’ve got yourself as the pilot. And then where it says second pilot or passenger you’ve got six people in there.
MR: Well, the bomb aimer used to act as second pilot. The bomb aimer.
HB: Yeah.
MR: He was a Canadian actually. And he acted, when you took off he acted as second pilot when you took off.
HB: Yeah.
MR: When you opened, when you open the four throttles he put his hand behind them to hold them firm.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Not to slide back when you took off. But —
HB: Because that was —
MR: But he wasn’t a second pilot. He was a bomb aimer. That was his job was bomb aimer.
HB: Because that was an operation.
MR: That was an operation.
HB: To Cologne. And it just says landed away.
MR: Landed away.
HB: Yeah. It says landed away.
MR: One, there was one thing where a lot of fog was on when we came back and we landed at Manston where they had a, they had three in the country, great long, a hundred, a hundred yards wide flare path. Yeah. You know, where you took off on the, on the flare path.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And a hundred yards wide, it was great and about a mile long and they had, when you had the fog they had a long on the edge of each side of the flare path. They had burners with the heat so the fog would rise you know with the heat.
HB: Right. Yeah.
MR: And that’s when you couldn’t land at your own airport.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And there was one time when I landed at Manston which was south of, I forget where it was. In Kent somewhere, I think.
HB: Yeah.
MR: At Manston. They had three around the coast for people coming back where you couldn’t land on, or if the aircraft was damaged so badly you could, you could land on this thing because it was so, it was so big. The flare path was so big. It was a hundred yards wide.
HB: Because you got I mean you’ve, you are really in to, you know November.
MR: Yeah.
HB: 1944. You’re really into a lot of operations there.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And on the 2nd of December you, you did an operation to Hagen.
MR: Yes.
HB: And all you’ve got in your logbook is mid-upper injured.
MR: Well, we got back from a raid and we’d been, we’d been hit several times but this chap was a mid-upper gunner sitting in the thing, and the hydraulic behind exploded because —
HB: Right.
MR: It had been hit you see. It exploded. This, the hydraulic thing. Cylinders of hydraulics.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Where the crew sat on your landing because we all left our stations and sat in the body of the aircraft. The crew did when we landed. And it blew the top of his head off.
HB: Oh blimey.
MR: The mid-upper gunner. And he never came, he went to, he was in hospital for twelve months but he survived. They put a plate in his head and he lived ‘til he was about seventy. I met him again two or three times after the war in 51 Squadron reunions. Yeah.
HB: What, can you remember what his name was?
[pause]
MR: He was from Manchester actually.
HB: Oh right.
MR: No. I can’t. I can’t think of his name now.
HB: No. I understand. So, and yeah and then you, as I say you really did do an awful lot of operations then. You’re going through what six, seven, eight. And you’ve got January the 2nd 1945. You’re going to Ludwigshafen.
MR: Ludwigshafen. Yeah.
HB: And you’ve got in your plane you’ve got Sergeant Brown, Warrant Officer Stone, Flight Sergeant Swan, Sergeant Haywood, Sergeant Tovey and Sergeant Smith.
MR: Say them. The last three. Sergeant —
HB: The last three. Sergeant Haywood.
MR: Yes.
HB: Sergeant Tovey.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And Sergeant Smith.
MR: Well, Smith was the rear gunner. The mid-upper gunner must have been Haywood, I think.
HB: He’s the one that replaced the guy who was injured.
MR: No. The flight engineer was replaced. Not a gunner. A flight engineer.
HB: Right.
MR: Oh yes. Sorry.
HB: Yeah.
MR: You’re quite right.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: He replaced the gunner. Yeah.
HB: So I’m, you see that, that one gives the list of the names. And then from then on again we’re back to just saying crew. So —
MR: Right.
HB: So would that have been your crew then for the next —
MR: Yeah.
HB: Set of operations.
MR: That would be. Yes. Yes.
HB: Right.
HB: That would be until the end of my tour. Yes.
HB: Right. Sorry about this. The pages are a little bit on the sticky side.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And you get through to February and you’ve, you’ve again you’ve landed away after you’ve done operation in March to Chemnitz [coughs] excuse me.
MR: There’s one —
HB: In your crew here you’ve got a Flight Sergeant Brewitt.
MR: Who?
HB: Brewitt. Brewiss.
MR: He was the, must have been the flight engineer I think.
HB: Right. Right. But, but as I say you then you really do a lot of operations in a very short space of time.
MR: Yeah. Well, there was one time when we came back from a raid, had a meal and went off again.
HB: Blimey.
MR: And we slept for, the rear gunner slept for thirty six hours after we got back. And they gave me wakey wakey pills when we, yeah we went off again. We did two trips.
HB: Blimey. So —
MR: A meal in between that’s all.
HB: Tell me about the wakey wakey pills then.
MR: Well, every time you went. Before a raid you had a good meal. Egg and bacon and chips or something like that.
HB: Yeah.
MR: We had good food. I know that the country as a whole didn’t do very well for food but they fed us very well and before we walked in they always gave us a wakey wakey. I think they were benecon or I forget the name. Benedrine. But the wakey wakey pills were so when you went on a trip you were wide awake you know.
HB: Yeah.
HB: They kept you going. The wakey wakey pills we called them. And as you went in for your meal before the trip there was a girl there used to give you these two tablets.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And we called them wakey wakey pills.
HB: Did you always take them Maurice?
MR: Oh yes. You had to.
HB: Yeah.
MR: You had to have them. Keep you, I mean one time I went to Chemnitz which was near Dresden. It was an eight hour trip.
HB: Yes. Yes. A long trip that one. Eight hours thirty five.
MR: Yeah. Eight hours.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And the funny thing is coming back from one of those trips we went between Ludwigshafen and Mannheim and Ludwigshafen was full of searchlights and Mannheim was full of searchlights but if you went in between them going to Chemnitz the searchlights couldn’t catch you. On the way back I was, my navigator was, my navigator was a good one and we were on track in between these two. But on the left hand side I saw a bomber, another bomber, this was in the dark but I just saw him and he was going over Mannheim and all of the searchlights swung through and caught him. This chap.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And you couldn’t get out of this. There were about thirty or forty searchlights and they were harnessed to the ack ack and we, they used to have then what they called flaming onions. Not your normal ack ack gun. These flaming onions were like five things that rose up briefly and they were harnessed to the, the searchlights. But this chap, I saw these bombs explode on his height about thirty yards behind him and I saw another about fifteen yards and a third lot caught him and the aircraft was just blown sky high. And when, everyone inside it. Seven. There were seven, they were off track. And you were talking about the Germans. You know, they got their technical, Dresden and that. These the technical thing. They were just as good as we were in their technical ability.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The Germans were.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And they didn’t, if they could, they got the height speed and direction of the aircraft from the searchlights attached to the end, and the bombs you know the flaming onions caught you, you know they were sent up to catch you. And I was caught in searchlights over one target but fortunately the, after the bombs went there was some cloud and I went over the cloud and the searchlight lost me. I was fortunate to get away.
HB: Yeah. So in, as I say you flew an awful lot of operations in a relatively tight sort of time.
MR: Yeah.
HB: What, what, what would you think when you, when you think back, what do you think was your worst, your worst operation?
MR: Well, the one that really stuck in my mind I was, I had several bad ones but the one that really stuck in my mind I got back to the base, to Snaith in Yorkshire after a raid, and they said we’re, the fog, ‘You are diverted to Lincolnshire.’ To RAF so and so. I said to the navigator, ‘Give me course for this air base.’ And there was a bit of silence. Then he said, ‘I haven’t got the maps for it.’ So, oh dear. We’re in trouble now. So I thought, well we, I went due east towards Lincolnshire from Yorkshire and towards the North Sea and when I felt, and it was all black down below you know with the blackout and I thought now what’s going to happen now? I called up, ‘Hello Darkie. Hello Darkie.’ And somebody answered down below but that didn’t help me [laughs] And I thought now what am I going to do? Am I going to get the crew to bale out and then I’ll bale out and I’ll set the aircraft for the North Sea and when all the fuel runs out it’ll drop out in the North Sea. And as I, as I was thinking this I was, you know I was in a bit of a state really and I saw a light. One light. So I went, I flew towards this one light and as I got near it there was three lights and what it was I don’t know if you know but during the war all the aircraft, the aerodromes they had hooded, they were all hooded so you had to be in the right position to see the lights.
HB: Yeah.
MR: If you came the other way it was black because they were, there were all these lights around the aerodrome were hooded, hooded lights. And anyway, when I got to this one light I was telling you about I saw two others, and what it was it was a ring of light around the aerodrome. They put their lights on for me, this aerodrome. It wasn’t the one I was supposed to be [laughs] but it was one near there. So I followed the lights around the aerodrome and they took me down to the flare path and I landed and we were okay.
HB: Yeah.
MR: But it was, it was a terrible, because you’re in a situation where you don’t know what to, you don’t know what to do really. I mean the obvious thing was to bale out and send the aircraft in the North Sea.
HB: Yeah.
MR: But it was a bit drastic. But I happened to see this one light and having seen this one light I saw the others and then I saw the, the circle of lights around the aerodrome and they took me onto the flare path.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And we landed.
HB: So you obviously, you obviously as you say you’d had a bit of a rough going over on that one and, and —
MR: Well, you know I had one trip when I had a two thousand bomb wouldn’t, wouldn’t release in the body, or the incendiary and the wheel went off but this this two thousand pound bomb wouldn’t go. So I was a bit worried about it because I tried to shake it off over the North Sea coming back but it wouldn’t go. So I had to land with it. And I thought now landing it might set it off. I told them when I, but fortunately we had a very good, good, in fact the crew said it’s the best landing I’d ever done [laughs]
HB: I think there was an incentive there.
MR: A two thousand pound bomb on board on landing. It didn’t go off.
HB: So so you’d got that bomb hung up and you said you tried to shake it off.
HB: Yeah.
HB: How did, how would you have done that Maurice?
MR: Well, just shake the aircraft. You know. With the wheel. Just shake it. You know, shake the aircraft and let it go. But it didn’t go.
HB: So whose job was it to take the bomb off?
MR: The armoury when we got back. The armoury took it off. The ground staff. Armourers.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And it, it must have got tied up somehow. I don’t know. I don’t. I didn’t ask.
HB: I’ll tell you one of the things you mentioned earlier on Maurice was you said about coming in to land.
MR: Yes.
HB: When the crew gathered in —
MR: In the centre of the aircraft.
HB: In the centre of the aircraft.
MR: Yes.
HB: Would that be where the main spar went through on the Halifax?
MR: Well, the main spar was just behind the pilot.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And the two pilot’s seats. Then, then the spar, the main spar. Then there was a seat on, a seat for three or four on this side and a seat for three or four on that side. And then the door to get out of it was a bit farther down and a chemical toilet somewhere.
HB: Yeah.
MR: You know.
HB: So, so obviously I’m presuming that at some stage you’re fully in position in the aircraft. Everybody is in the right place.
MR: Yeah. Yes.
HB: And at some stage you’ve got to decide that it’s safe for the rear gunner and the mid-upper gunner to leave their positions. When would you —
MR: We were home. We’re home now. We’re going around the, around the perimeter.
HB: So it’s, so it’s as you were doing your circuit to land that you would do that. Yeah.
MR: Something like that, yeah. I’d tell them, alright we’ll be landing in about ten minutes or five minutes or something like that.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Will you, now you can go. I’d instruct the crew to go and sit down.
HB: Right.
MR: As we landed. Yeah.
HB: And that was a safety thing I presume.
MR: Well, it was a thing we had to do. We were told that’s what and, yes.
HB: Yeah. Yeah, so —
MR: You wouldn’t want the rear gunner sitting in the rear, when you landed, would you?
HB: No. No. No. So you, you’re doing your operations. You’re based out at Snaith.
MR: Yeah.
HB: In Yorkshire.
MR: Yeah.
HB: Because you weren’t far from Goole.
MR: Well, Goole had got the lake. That was, Goole was the, that was a big lake there near Goole and that was a very good spot to follow you to get back to.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. As a obviously as a sighting thing.
MR: Yes.
HB: Yeah. So, what, I mean you’d met your wife or your future wife some time ago so, what was your social life like when you were on, on at Snaith? Did you have much a social life?
MR: No. We had, we had what they called a stand down, and you had to leave. You could, when you had a stand down you could leave the aerodrome until midnight.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And you would probably get a lorry or something to take you in to Pontefract which was nearest big town. We used to go and I think we had two. Two stand downs in my nine months I was operating. Only two. Other than those two we were stuck in and when there was a raid on, because my wife used to, she was in Maidstone in Kent. She used to ring up actually. She wasn’t my wife then but she used to ring. Yes, was she? I don’t know. Anyway. She used to ring up and to see if I was alright you know. And if, if she couldn’t get through she knew there was a raid on because when there was a raid on they, they stopped all the communication with the outside world. The station did.
HB: Right.
MR: The bomber station. And then she’d ring the next day and when we’d, to see if I was alright. If I’d got back alright. You know.
HB: So, it was quite a bit of a long distance relationship then.
MR: Oh, yeah. Well in —
HB: Yeah.
MR: Mind you she was in the ATS for two years.
HB: Yeah.
MR: She was called up actually. She had a choice of either munitions or the ATS because the WAAF and the WRNS were full and so she only had the ATS to go in.
HB: Right.
MR: So she went in the ATS.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Rather than go in munitions. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. So you, so you’re coming towards the end of your tour.
MR: Yes.
HB: We know you’d lost a flight engineer.
MR: Yes.
HB: Which is probably understandable from what you’ve described. You’ve lost a mid-upper gunner.
MR: Yes.
HB: So the bulk of the crew were still there towards the end of your tour.
MR: Oh yes.
HB: So how, how close had you become by then?
MR: Well, fairly close but then of course like many things in the RAF you, I go to 10 Squadron on my own and I pick up another crew.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Of four.
HB: Yeah.
HB: Different people, you know. And the RAF is like that. You don’t, it’s not like the Army where you’re with them all the time and you’ve lost them. They’ve gone. Although strangely enough I went out to, I think it was India. I met my navigator. He’d been posted to a place in, in India too as a navigator. Teaching you know. Something like that.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Yeah.
HB: So that was, that was obviously that was the follow on question Maurice.
MR: Yes.
HB: Was did you manage to keep in contact with all of them?
MR: Well, after the war the navigator was a member of the 51 Squadron Association.
HB: Yeah.
MR: And I and I joined it too so we met there two or three times with our wives. We came to dances and all that but now of course when, I three or four years ago I resigned from it because all the people were new. I didn’t know. They were all young people.
HB: Yeah.
MR: All the, all the old people that started this Association in 1944, this 51 Squadron Association you know for ex-people and they were all wartime people and we used to chat and all that. But now, later on, they’d all, they’d all died and — [laughs]
HB: Yeah.
HB: There was no point so I resigned from it.
HB: Yeah. It’s sad. So, so you’ve had your contact with your navigator. You’ve just mentioned there you then moved from 51 Squadron to 10 Squadron.
MR: Yes.
HB: But before you actually went there and this intrigues me because again it’s something I’ve not seen before. In May 1945 you flew two, four, six, eight, ten. You flew twelve operations in May from the 13th to the 21st and all it says is bomb disposal.
MR: Yes. Well, what happened we used, we went out and dropped bombs, the bombs that we had in the North Sea. The war had finished so we spent a lot of time carrying bombs out to the North Sea and dropping them in the water. In the North Sea. Bombs that they didn’t want.
HB: Right. And that was, was that just from where you were or did you have to go and sort of pick them up?
MR: No. Driffield or somewhere like that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: I was posted to, I think it was Driffield.
HB: Yeah. And then as I say you moved, you moved across to 10 squadron at Melbourne in Yorkshire.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And you were still, you were then flying. You changed in the June ’45.
MR: Yeah.
HB: To the Dakota.
MR: Yeah.
HB: Did you have, did you have to do a conversion course?
MR: No. I—
HB: Or was it just a case —
MR: Well, I went down to Witney. No. I didn’t have a conversion course. Only the fact that this itself was a conversion course flying these Dakotas. We just got in the aircraft and flew them. Twin engines aircraft. They were ever so easy to fly and out of the four engine bombers they were very easy, the Dakotas were to fly. Twin engine little, they weren’t very powerful but they were a very, very good aircraft and the brakes were much better. Brakes, than on the old four engine bombers.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: And we were, we were flying paratroops, and towing gliders. We were training, we were all training, both the paratroopers and we were training for going out to the Far East, you know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that to me before we started the interview about going out to the Far East because you know it’s, we’ve got to September.
MR: Well, the war finished I think very soon after.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The Far East war.
HB: Yeah. But you did actually get out to —
MR: I went out there because, we went there because it was all laid on to help the 14th Army but they’d driven the Japs out and we spent most of our time, well first of all we carrying troops back home to Karachi where they we were picked home and taken home on demob. Then we, then we all went to [unclear] where we dropped rice. Free drops. We dived down. They made a dropping zone with the aircraft and we dived down on a free drop. Couldn’t put them in parachutes because they might go into the ravines you see. So we had to, down to about fifty feet. The crew threw the half-filled bags of rice out of the aircraft then we, when they’d gone we had to climb. I had to climb like mad to avoid the peaks around. And we lost three aircraft actually the squadron did on that.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Because, you know it could be a bit dangerous really.
HB: So you went down to how, how low?
MR: To where?
HB: How low were you when you were dropping them? Fifty feet?
MR: Yeah. Well, they had, the crew had to drop them on a DZ. Dropping zone.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: Throw them out. Yeah. Throw them out because we couldn’t, they couldn’t go in parachutes because there was ravines, deep ravines and they’d never get them.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MR: So we had what we called a free drop. We had to dive down, the crew threw out the bags of rice and then we’d, when they’d thrown them all out we’d climb like mad to avoid, and go back.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Turn around and climb. But you couldn’t, couldn’t turn around because of the peaks on either side. We had to go over the top and turn. They were sixteen thousand feet high these peaks.
HB: Yeah.
MR: In the Himalayas.
HB: And as a pilot was it, was it a difficult flying experience?
MR: Well, that was but that was only six weeks dropping that rice. But other than that it was quite an easy job. It was just taking troops back to, well, we picked them up from the east, Madras and at an aerodrome called Arkonham. Flew across to Poona and then took them up to Karachi in the north and they were picked up in Karachi by some other aircraft and taken home.
HB: Yeah. And you, and you were doing that all the way through until you ended up in Burma.
MR: Well, yes and when I got back. When we finished in Burma I went back to Poona [pause] and what happened then? Oh, I was on a troop ship. My demob came up fairly soon but they, I had to fly an aircraft back. A lease lend. On a lease lend the Americans in Munich. So, a little twin, a lovely little aircraft. They were used as like taxies for the important people in India and that you know. They didn’t, they didn’t go by rail and that. These marshals and generals and people like that. So they had these aircraft the Americans supplied. Then they had to go back to the Americans after the war in Munich. And I flew an aircraft across India, across the Indian Ocean, up the Persian Gulf and then across, across the Med and across to Marseilles and then to Paris. Then Paris to London to Munich. And I got in there, I think I’ve got it somewhere, one Dakota one aircraft, you know signed for by an American staff sergeant. One aircraft delivered.
HB: So, then that would have been, that would have been May 1946.
MR: Yes.
HB: Was that the Beechcraft?
MR: That’s right. Beech.
HB: It was a Beechcraft.
MR: I can remember the aircraft.
HB: Yeah.
MR: It was a Beechcraft.
HB: Yeah.
MR: A little twin engine, twin engine Beechcraft. A lovely aircraft.
HB: I can just, just about read it. It’s the one, it’s the last page.
MR: All electric. The undercarriage, you just put a switch up and the undercarriage came up. You didn’t have to put a lever down or anything like you did in the old Halifaxes.
HB: Yeah.
MR: You just switched up. Knocked this switch up and the undercarriage came up.
HB: Yeah. Because it, because it’s on this page here and it’s the only page you’ve done in pencil and it’s just starting to fade a little bit.
MR: Yeah. When I, and it’s not in the logbook but this trip I made from, from, I went up to north west India and flew this Beechcraft home. Well, I didn’t fly it home. I flew it to Munich. Not in. It’s not in there.
HB: Oh no. It’s in here.
MR: What? All the trip?
HB: It went, you went from Chopta.
MR: Where?
HB: Chopta to Bahrain. Bahrain to Kuwait. Kuwait to Haifa. Haifa to Cairo. Cairo to Tel Aviv.
MR: That’s it. Yeah. That’s it.
HB: Tel Aviv to Castel something.
MR: Castel Benito.
HB: Castel Benito. Then you went to —
MR: Marseilles.
HB: Marseilles.
MR: It’s there is it? Oh.
HB: Paris, Munich.
MR: That’s it. Yeah.
HB: And you finished at Bovington [laughs]
MR: Well, my mate flew me back home to Bovington for —
HB: Yeah.
HB: I had my demob there. I got a suit from them.
HB: From the Americans?
MR: No. it was in this country.
HB: Oh [laughs] Yeah. I was joking Maurice.
MR: When I was, when I was demobbed.
HB: Yeah. It’s, no it’s, now that’s interesting because it’s, a Beechcraft is quite a small aircraft.
MR: Oh yes. Well, it was I say it was used as a taxi.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Flying backwards and forwards in that.
MR: There were only about four seats in it. Behind the pilot was a, there was no dividing thing you know. Just four seats behind you when you flew it.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Four or six. I forget now whether it was four or six seats for people to sit there.
HB: Yeah.
MR: It was a tad silly really but the Americans it was on a lease lend and they had to go back to the Americans when the war finished.
HB: Now, when I spoke to you to arrange the interview and having spoken to your son.
MR: Yes.
HB: You’ve sort of skated over something that happened to you involving being torpedoed.
MR: Oh, that was, that was in, yes, when I left Canada to come back I came back, it was in January. When I came back there was, there was three troopships and two destroyers in the North Atlantic, and I think there was someone in the Canadian customs who was a German sympathiser and he was in touch with the U-boats. So when we left this Halifax place to come with these troopships with these two destroyers the U-boats waited for us. And the first night out we had I don’t know how many alarms we had with U-boats. And then we, a bit later on apparently one of the torpedoes was heading straight for a troop ship, I’m talking about five thousand troops on board, heading for this troop ship and a Dutch destroyer sailed in the way of it. The captain, he arranged for the destroyer to sail in the path and the torpedo blew up the destroyer and they had two survivors. And then the one, the one destroyer was circling round and round and round. And when they had [pause] when we got back to Liverpool they had a collection for the crew which is most unusual in wartime. Having a collection because they were so grateful to this destroyer. You know looked after them so well.
HB: Yeah.
MR: The crew.
HB: It’s sad. It’s sad losing all those guys.
MR: You don’t hear about these things do you really? Generally.
HB: Well, it’s because people like you Maurice don’t talk about them.
MR: Yes.
HB: Or haven’t talked about them until now.
MR: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. I mean you’re right, you know a collection for a crew of a destroyer, you know.
MR: And, and that, it could be quite a bit of money. All these troops. They weren’t just troopships. There were important people on board too you know.
HB: Yeah.
MR: People who were going home to England. Important people who travelled. I don’t know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So, we’ve, we’ve got you back to Bovington.
MR: Yes.
HB: You got married in 1945.
MR: Oh yes.
HB: So that would have been before you went out to India.
MR: Before I went to India. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Yeah. I had one week’s leave [laughs] I got married. One week’s leave and then I was away for nearly twelve months in India and Burma.
HB: That’s, now, that is a long distance relationship.
MR: [laughs] Yeah. The only communication we had were by, I used to write her letters and I think there’s still some that’s upstairs.
HB: Yes.
MR: I must, I must get rid of those too. Those letters. I don’t want other people reading them.
HB: Well [laughs] but so you’ve, you’ve come back. You’ve gone to Bovington.
MR: Yeah.
HB: To be demobbed.
MR: Right.
HB: And ⸻
MR: I’ve got to get myself a job after.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Had a fortnight’s leave and then I’d got to find a job. I went to Jones and Shipman.
HB: Which is an engineering company.
MR: Yes. It is.
HB: In Leicester.
MR: It was.
HB: Or was.
MR: It’s gone now.
HB: Yeah. And what did, what sort of engineering did you do there, Maurice?
MR: I wasn’t an engineer. I was on the commercial side and I only had three years with Jones and Shipman. Then I went to Perry Parkers, and they were [laughs] they were a family firm. I was on exports there. Commercial again. Then I went to Richard’s and I spent thirty years with Richard’s and I retired from Richard’s.
HB: And what did Richard’s do?
MR: Well, they were structural. They were structural engineers. They used to have these structures with, you know RSJs and beams and things, and also they had a foundry too. What they called meehanite foundry. It was like a superior cast iron. Cast iron thing they made in the foundry.
HB: Yeah. And you were there for thirty years.
MR: Yeah. I was commercial manager actually.
HB: Yeah. So —
MR: All the buying and all the commercial side.
HB: Yeah. When, when, when you look back now you know not having really talked much about the war but you’re looking back now from being one hundred years old.
MR: Yeah.
HB: What, what do you think you took into your life from your wartime experience?
MR: Oh well, it made a man of me actually I think. I was only a boy when I went in and I had led a fairly sheltered, although not a, we weren’t, we weren’t particularly wealthy. We were, well we were poor really in Manchester but it, it made me a leader. It did me a lot of good really being in the RAF. In the fact, that it built my character I think to not worry about, it doesn’t bother me about people or anything really. I wasn’t, I wasn’t afraid of dying. I didn’t want to get wounded but I was never afraid of dying, not even on trips. I wasn’t scared of going on trips.
HB: Right.
MR: I don’t know why that was. I never felt frightened at all because I didn’t, it didn’t worry me if I got killed really before, that was before I was married of course.
HB: Yes. Yes. Of course. And, and, and that experience obviously took you through. You mention leadership.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And, and that sort of brings you back to how close you worked with your crew.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And you led them and you took that forward but with your crew as a group of men together do you think that worked for them as well? Having you as the pilot.
MR: Well, it could do but you were the boss actually. There was no question. Whatever you said went. If you said, ‘Bale out.’ They’d bale out. Or anything, you know. You, you were like a captain of a ship really, I suppose. Your word was law and there was no, they never questioned it. I remember coming back from a raid once and the rear gunner said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I think there’s a fighter. I can’t, can’t quite see it.’ So he said, ‘I’m not sure.’ So I did a corkscrew you see and he said, ‘Oh you’re alright. No. Don’t worry. Don’t get bloody mad.’ Something like that. I said, ‘Who the bloody hell are you talking to?’ [laughs] And of course he shut up then.
HB: Yeah.
MR: But that’s just an instance of your life you know.
HB: Yeah. I can, yeah I can understand that. I can understand that. So you marry.
MR: When I finished my tour I got married.
HB: You married Sylvia.
MR: Had a week’s leave and then to —
HB: Yeah.
MR: I went to India.
HB: And you set up home here in Leicester.
MR: Well, yeah. I lived in Braunstone actually for, when my, there was houses being built. Twelve hundred pound they were. Houses being built, two up and two down and I had one of those in, just off Braunstone Lane and I lived there for about two years. And then I, in this area, this is in 1952 I think I bought this plot where the house is built. I had an architect and we built the house. We built this house and I’ve lived here for sixty odd years. My wife and I have had sixty years in this house. She’s now in Kirby House.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Care home. But we had sixty, and I’ve lived here for sixty eight, excuse me sixty eight years. And the house was built with the architect and I mean things like the picture window there and the hatch was ours. You know. We wanted that.
HB: Yes.
MR: Sylvia and I. And he, you know was a good architect. All his, every window in the house looks out on the back garden. Three bedrooms. Three bedroom windows. And the architect was very good.
HB: Yeah. That’s lovely.
MR: And we’ve liked this house. We’ve always been very happy in it.
HB: Yeah. Well, we’ve sort of naturally come to an end —
MR: Right.
HB: Of the interview, Maurice and I thank you.
MR: Well, thank you for coming any way.
HB: Well, it’s, and I don’t say this lightly it’s, it’s a privilege really to be able to get you to tell your story and to have your story recorded.
MR: Yeah.
HB: And I thank you for that and I’m sure in the future when people look in to what Bomber Command did in years to come somewhere in there, there will be this little comment from —
MR: Yeah.
HB: From Maurice Roberts.
MR: Well that’s nice to know, you know.
HB: Yes.
MR: And I’ve got this this thing. This aircrew medal plus.
HB: Yeah.
MR: That David Cameron, well it would be, and bar that’s it.
HB: The clasp. Yeah.
MR: The aircrew. And I’ve also got the medal from the French government. The Legion d’Honneur.
HB: Yeah.
MR: Have you seen that?
HB: No. What, what I’ll do now is I will terminate the interview if I may —
MR: Yes.
HB: And we’ll go on to the other bits, because there’s bits of paperwork.
MR: Right.
HB: So, thank you again Maurice.
MR: Ok.
HB: And we’ll just stop the interview.
MR: Right.
HB: I normally say the time but I can’t see the time. So, it’s twelve something I think. Oh dear.
MR: That’s not going that clock. The time. Look at my watch. That’s the correct time.
HB: It’s ten minutes past twelve.
MR: Right.
HB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maurice Roberts
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-02-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARobertsM200219, PRobertsM2001
Format
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00:54:47 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Manchester, he was 20 years old in 1940 when he joined up and volunteered for aircrew. He trained in South Africa, Canada (Moncton and Trenton), the Unites States (Lakeland), and was torpedoed in the Atlantic on his way back. Maurice flew Tiger Moths, Oxfords, Wellingtons, and Halifaxes. After being stationed at a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Lossiemouth, he was posted to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. He recollects operations to Essen, Cologne, Ludwigshafen and Chemnitz, mentioning 8-hour trips made possible by amphetamines ('Wakey-wakey' pills), heavy anti-aircraft fire, FIDO, and bomb-struck aircraft. On another occasion they were diverted to a Lincolnshire airfield for which they had not got the maps and couldn’t locate it. Having resigned to the fact that they would have to set a course out over the North Sea and then bale out, at the last moment Maurice spotted a light on the airfield and was able to land safely. They once had to land with a 2000 lb bomb still on board, which his crew considered the best landing he had ever done. In May 1945, he did 12 operations for bomb disposal in the North Sea, taking off from RAF Driffield. In June, with 10 Squadron and a new crew at RAF Melbourne, he flew C-47s training for operations on Japan, then was posted to the Far East. While stationed in Karachi, Maurice dropped supplies in the jungle. Demobilised in 1946, he pursued a career in engineering retiring as a manager – Maurice maintains that wartime service helped built his character. He stayed in touch with other 51 Squadron veterans through their association. In addition to his decorations, he was awarded the Legion of Honour.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Scotland--Moray
England--Yorkshire
Canada
Ontario
Ontario--Trenton
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
Florida
Florida--Lakeland
South Africa
Germany
Germany--Essen
Germany--Cologne
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Pakistan
Pakistan--Karachi
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
South Africa--Vereeniging
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10-25
1944-12-02
1945-01-02
1945-05
1945-06
Language
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eng
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Graham Emmet
Steve Baldwin
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
10 Squadron
51 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb disposal
bomb struck
bombing
C-47
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Driffield
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Snaith
searchlight
submarine
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1154/11712/AThomasPG180302.1.mp3
5f48a36e221c6e96879ffcba1c0006cb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thomas, Peter
P Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Peter Thomas (b. 1923, 1524026 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a navigator with 149 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Peter Thomas and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Thomas, PG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: The interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The Interviewer Is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Peter Thomas. The interview is taking place at Mr Thomas’ home at [buzz] Lincoln on Friday the 2nd of March 2018. Also in attendance is Peter Selby and Catherine Selby. Ok. Peter, what I’d like to start with is just to start with just tell me a bit about when and where you were born.
PT: Oh, I was born 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson. Are you picking that up?
MC: Yeah. That’s fine.
PT: Yeah. That’s where I was born. Nelson.
MC: When was that?
PT: 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson. There’s a lot of twenty sixes in my life and I regard them as being of good fortune. So I was born at 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson.
MC: In Lancashire.
PT: Lancashire.
MC: Yeah. What, what did your parents do?
PT: My father was a furniture manager and my mother stayed at home and she had three sons to look after. You know going to work and playing football and taking dirty washing to her, you know [laughs] from football because it was a slushy, a bit of a slushy pitch.
MC: What do you remember about your schooldays then, Peter?
PT: Oh, I liked, in contrast to my younger brother who didn’t like it I loved the school. It was Nelson Secondary School and it was just, I don’t know. I should have brought a photograph of it but it was just off the off the, off Walton Lane and it was on Oxford Road. So From Glenfield Road you went there, there and on Oxford Road and there behold. And in recent times, it was built in 1927 and the headmaster was a very strict man. He was. He was mad on getting people through. He was only interested in getting through, people through matriculation as it was then. So, I went there at in 1934 and I was about eleven.
MC: Yeah. And how old were you when you left school?
PT: When I left school?
MC: How old were you?
PT: 1940.
MC: Were you sixteen?
PT: Yeah. Sixteen or seventeen. Yeah.
MC: So what was your first job then when you left school? What did you do after you left school?
PT: When I was, I always had a, had a flair for writing. Not clever stuff. Just writing. Copy anything. And I went for a job at the Marsden Building Society but just when that came up there was another one in the Treasurer’s Department and I thought oh that’s my, that’s what I want. So I went to, I had an interview, borrowed my brother’s overcoat because it was a very small one and got through this interview and I think it was fortuitous that this interview the chap I interviewed or the gentleman I interviewed was Harry Crabtree and he was the, he was one of the old school treasurers. He’d got to the stage when he was back, he was a deputy treasurer but he was conveniently bypassed from the treasurer [Hyram] Reed who was a Geordie. Very clever man and he bypassed Harry Crabtree and came around to Steve Dyson. He was, he was the chief accountant and Steve [pause] was to do with [pause] Steve but there’s a funny little story about Harry Crabtree. He said, I was a junior at that time and he said, ‘Are you busy, Peter?’ And I said, ‘Well, no more than usual.’ Because I worked behind the counter and I also did another job which was ancillary to the ledgers that were being prepared and, ‘No,’ I said, ‘What do you want?’ ‘Just come into my office.’ So I got in to his office and the whole floor was covered with disused envelopes and he had a, he had a pile of new envelopes, new stick ons and we spent the afternoon sticking these temporary covers on these envelopes which was a bit strange for a deputy treasurer. But he was, I think they gave him, I think the only job that he got was I think he did loans. Something like that. Something that was really not, not responsible. The main man was [Hyram] Reed who came from the northeast. He was a Geordie and he was a clever man. And Steve Dyson, he was the chief accountant.
MC: So you worked there until you got, the you joined the —
PT: Eh?
MC: You worked there ‘til you joined the Air Force did you?
PT: Yes. Yes. I did.
MC: When did you join?
PT: I was there ‘til 1943.
MC: How old were you then?
PT: I was twenty then.
MC: Twenty.
PT: Yeah.
MC: So you —
PT: Well, I was born in 1923. So twenty. Yeah.
MC: So you joined the Air Force at twenty.
PT: I joined in nineteen [pause] Well, I joined in 1943 and I had to wait to go in. I wasn’t called up ‘til twelve months after.
MC: You were called up were you?
PT: Yeah. Well, I’d, I’d actually joined when I was about eighteen or nineteen. I can’t just remember the date.
MC: So, did you volunteer for aircrew then?
PT: Oh yes. Well, I’d had a little hiatus as it were and I, my, my friend was joining the Navy and I thought I’d have a go at the Fleet Air Arm and of course I didn’t get accepted because the gentlemen, there were these guys with the old, you know they were old sweats of, of the Navy. And they had bother with the, and one of them produced two, two aircraft and he said, ‘What’s this?’ and ‘What’s this?’ And I didn’t know because the gentleman in Nelson who was crazy to go in the Air Force and be a navigator he was a newly appointed headmaster at [unclear] Senior School. And because I wasn’t able to stay at the Primary School I’d been sent down and there was only me that went there. I can’t know why. But I went down to this Senior School, and I did twelve months and conveniently failed the scholarship again so, to go to the Grammar School. So anyway, I sat an entrance exam to the Grammar School and I was top of that school. Of that class. There were thirty and Francis Myers who was the temporary headmaster said, ‘Peter Thomas.’ So I stood up and he said, ‘You did rather well in arithmetic. We’ve got a place for you in the scholarship class.’ So having failed the scholarship exam twice I finished up in this scholarship class and it was very interesting, you know. Of course, it swelled my head a bit. Consequently, at the first exam at Christmas I was twenty nine out of thirty. That really shook me so after that I was never out of ten. I was always usually in the first five or six in the class in the exams and we were going to sit, we should have been able to sit for the [pause] for the school whatever exam it was but the, they introduced a remove over a year where we had to wait another year. So instead of it being a four year to, to matriculation if that’s the right word we had to wait ‘til, they called it five remove and I was in, in that situation with, with a lot of brainy fellas actually.
MC: That’s why you finished up at —
PT: In fact, there was only one fella —
MC: Yeah.
PT: In that class who managed to get in to the A Section and he was studying to be a doctor and he was KS Oate, of [unclear] Road, Nelson.
MC: My word.
PT: Yeah.
MC: What a memory.
PT: Sorry.
MC: Yeah. So what you, so you joined the Air Force say in ’43. Where did you first go when you joined up?
PT: Well, when I joined up I went to RAF Waddington and I think it was RAF Waddington I got, that’s when I —
MC: No. You did your basic. Where did you do your basic training?
PT: I went, I went to London to do to be accepted because you had the eye tests and hearing and eyes and curiously my friend who’d rode a motorbike he, when we came back I said, ‘How did you go on Milton?’ And he said, and he said, ‘They failed me.’ He said, ‘They failed me on eyes.’ He said, ‘I’ve, was riding my motorbike without goggles. I’ve altered the focal length of my eyes.’ So he was, so he said, ‘I’m going to be a despatch rider in the Army.’ He said, ‘I’ve finished with the Air Force.’ And he went back to his uncle who had a bakery and curiously enough he never got called up. He just worked in this bakery and he, he owned it eventually and that was that was my friend Milton Fothergill.
MC: Yeah. But you went to London and that was —
PT: I went to London.
MC: Aircrew Reception Centre.
PT: Pardon?
MC: Aircrew Reception Centre.
PT: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I went to London. And then from London I went to Paignton. That was ITW. ITW at Paignton. I was there four or five months and from there when I’d passed out of there we didn’t, we were at the Singer Estate and we did running and sport. And we had a fellow called Chang and he was a, he was a guy who wanted to drive you to kingdom come in running through this Singer Estate. And there was also a boxing ring you know but I didn’t get involved with that I can assure you. No. I’m not a boxer. Anyway, from, from Paignton we moved to [pause] I moved to Cambridge and I did four, twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths but I was, I was a bit unlucky. The first two hours the chap was an Australian pilot. A trainer. A teacher and he said ‘Oh, we’re not going to have any bother with you are we?’ And he came the next day and he said, he said, ‘I’ve been posted.’ He said, ‘I’m so sorry.’ So then we got another chap who [pause] who’d have been in an accident so he wasn’t very, I weren’t very happy with him. But in the meantime, a Manchester policeman called Charlie Kent grumbled about his position, his situation, so they gave him, they gave him my, they gave him, I got his trainer you see. And so as a result of that I didn’t get selected as pilot. When I got to Manchester and there was a big auditorium of combination of Nissen huts I suppose. I don’t know. It was a big hangar type of place and I was in there and my 026 was called out and they said, do you know they called out my name, my number 026 and I’ve a lot of stories on 026. Anyway, they said, ‘Yeah. Straight navigator.’ So I, well they didn’t say that but I knew that when he said what he’d intimated. That I wouldn’t be a pilot. I’d be a navigator. So that was alright. I mean I didn’t know what was what at the time.
MC: Did you, did you have to do any aptitude tests for navigator or did they just say you’re a navigator?
PT: No. They didn’t. I didn’t. I didn’t go up for, I went from Manchester to, I went from Manchester and I finished up in Liverpool to go on a ship to Canada. And when I was on this ship, I mention it in passing because we were still avoiding submarines. Still avoiding submarines and as we were going south during the day he got one of the, one of the chaps got burned and he was the, we were going down to the Azores where it was sunny. And then we came up the Atlantic coast past America, you know. New York and right and came into Halifax so that’s where I started my initial training. In Halifax.
MC: Obviously avoiding the submarines in the North Atlantic.
PT: Yeah. And avoided that. Yes. And I went to, I went on a train from Halifax to Moncton and that was a Receiving Centre. And I met a chap who lived up the street from me and he was Naval uniform and I said, ‘What are you doing here, Harold?’ I can’t remember his last name. He was called Harold anyway. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m, I’ve trained as a pilot in the Fleet Air Arm.’ So where I’d failed the interview for Fleet Air Arm he, who couldn’t pass his scholarship could. He had a job getting in to, he couldn’t get into the Grammar School. Anyway, he passed, passed for Fleet Air Arm. Anyway, and he’d done flying you know and he went back to England and I don’t think he, I think you won’t believe this but he’d failed on ship recognition. So, so he didn’t get much further in the, I think he finished up on trainers. You know. Link trainers. You know the sort of [pause] he was. He became a teacher.
MC: On link trainers.
PT: In that respect. And he were. He was a teacher anyway and he finished up a teacher. I mean they weren’t the brightest some teachers were they?
MC: Yeah [laughs]
PT: Anyway.
MC: So your navigator’s training started at Malton, Ontario.
PT: Basically yes. I mean we had a long journey from, from Halifax to, to Moncton and then on again through, through Montreal overnight down to, we arrived on the 1st of January nineteen forty something. ’43.
MC: ’44.
PT: ‘44. We arrived at Toronto and we were wondering around in this place and it were, it was the Town Hall. There were no, there were books and files and I don’t why, how we managed to get in and somebody eventually appeared and there’d been a notice of arrival and we got a gash meal you know. And then, then of course we were filtered out to, it was Malton. It wasn’t Toronto International then. It was Malton Airport and we, we were stationed there and that’s where I did my first flying.
MC: What aircraft was that in?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What aircraft was that in?
PT: Avro Anson.
MC: Oh, the Anson.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Yeah. And I did all the flying in Canada on Avro Ansons and I passed everything there. I used to get, I used to get, ‘Ahh Monsieur Thomas.’ That was a Polish, [Weselovski], and [Denowski] and they all wanted to fly with Peter Thomas because they knew I could do it because I’d had so much training with this Mr Brooks at the Senior School In Nelson and he, he trained me on navigation and I never, I never had any trouble with any problems in navigation because I got such a grounding in navigation. And of course, I passed out in Canada as a, as a navigator.
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: I was an LAC but my friend who I met on the ship going out he happened to be on the same walking around the ship at night with, with rifles supposedly on guard you know and we finished up together as friends. And when it came to the exams I was about fourth. Fourth on the course and he was seventeen. But he knew a general in Ottawa didn’t he? So, so that made it rather difficult for me. So he got the commission and I got three stripes. So I came back a sergeant and he came back an officer and he was very generous. He said, ‘You know they’ve robbed you haven’t they Peter?’ They knew, he knew what the game was you know because he’d been, he’d had a forty hour pass, forty hour leave and he’d gone up to see this general in Ottawa. So he, you know the wheels had turned you know and his father was Sir Arthur Smout who’d done, who was doing business on armaments with Paul Revere Incorporated who had a vast building in New York because subsequently David Smout as he was called, we were subsequently invited to have a weekend at New York. So we went overnight on the train to New York and David rang the, the Paul Revere Incorporated and we went around this level of where they were so that it, they showed us New York from four points you see.
MC: Brilliant.
PT: And then at dinnertime we went to the [pause] to the Columbia. I think it was the Columbia. It was a restaurant you know. I’ve forgotten the name of the restaurant. Anyway, it don’t matter and we had our meal with these and then these two gentlemen said, ‘Well, we play Bridge at Saturday afternoon.’ Him and his deputy. So he said, ‘We’ll see you at teatime at this address.’ It was on 5th Avenue. So they bundled me and David off to, to the Rockettes. You know, the famous American Rockettes. The girls who were dancing and stuff. And then there was other items and then they finished up with, with somebody called Doris Day, I think it was in, “Up in Arms.” Yeah. And we watched that. And then of course we, we appeared in these drab Air Force uniforms because all Americans were in if they were in khaki it was serge. There were none of this rough stuff and we were in these rough and we were introduced at 5th Avenue, at this address of this president and we were introduced as Lieutenant Thomas and Smout [laughs] And of course we were LACs weren’t we? Anyway, we didn’t tell them did we? And during that meal David managed to spill his ice cream and I I had a little argument about, with the other chappie, he was, of course they were very strict Conservatives and I was, I’d come from Nelson and Nelson was a [laughs] well you couldn’t be any stronger labour than Nelson. It was a really [pause] yeah. So then from there if you just let me finish, then from there when we, when I’d finished at —
MC: When you finished in Canada.
PT: In Toronto. I had the chance. I had the choice of going up to Montreal or, I’d seen a dance band. Louis Armstrong on the shores of Lake Ontario and, and that week that I was to go I had the choice to see to go and see Duke Ellington who was my, he was one of the great jazz musicians. Have you ever heard of him? Eh? Yeah.
MC: Indeed. Yeah.
PT: Anyway, I went to, I went to Montreal and I met a chap who was a writer in the Navy. A writer is a clerk I think, and this was Bill Farmer, he was, he became a solicitor but he was in the Navy and he was a writer and we met up and we had, well we had at least a day together and then I was left on my own. And then I met a nice lady from [pause] she was, she was a French lady. She spoke, because when I rang her up she said, ‘Oui?’ She didn’t say yes. She said, ‘Oui.’ And she spoke French of course and she spoke English as well so it didn’t matter. And then from there we went back. I went back to Toronto. I did my flying from Malton Airport. Malton Airport was, became Toronto International. Big stuff you know. Toronto International.
MC: So having finished your flying, your navigator training in Canada you then got shipped back to the UK.
PT: Yes.
MC: And where did you come to?
PT: And then when we had, we were in the, we were in a Dutch boat and we got a, the bells all ringing and it all went boom boom boom. We were in the middle of the Atlantic and quite frankly I was shit scared you know [laughs] and we had to appear on deck with our life jackets on like this and we were all lined up like that. And it were just an exercise to see if you could do it if it actually happened. So anyway, we arrived at Gourock in Scotland and we were then posted to Pannal Ash College which was just a holding place. We didn’t do any lessons there. But there was a, it was a, Pannal Ash College was it was probably a private school and they had a swimming pool outside which was, it had sort of been a temporary dugout and the water ran in and it ran out at the other end and the only way you could get in, you could get in at the top but the only way you could get out was at the bottom and it were freezing this water because it was a river you see. Anyway, we, that passed and we from there —
MC: So, there wasn’t any flying there.
PT: No. No flying there. No. No. I think, I think we went up to Millom and did, did some flying from there. And that was when we were flying from Chicken Rock and up to the, up to all the islands of Scotland. Did a lot, quite a bit of flying up there.
MC: And that was in Ansons again, was it? Oh right.
PT: Pardon?
MC: That was in the Avro Anson again. Avro Anson.
PT: Yes. The same as in Canada. And then we moved down from there to Husbands Bosworth.
MC: Was that —
PT: That was a —
MC: That was the Operational Training Unit.
PT: Yes. OT. Yes, it was. Yeah. And there we, we had this incident of not arriving. We were, we were flying on a, on a course and the engine, flight engineer who I think at that time was still the mid-upper gunner but he was looking after the petrol tanks, you know, switching the tanks. And he said, he said, ‘I think, I think we’ve got a problem here skipper with the, with the petrol. Supply of petrol.’ So they started then looking for somewhere to land. And they got, they got a position line from, from the wireless operator the Welshman, Peter [Hoare] and they went, they got this, they got this position line to Leicester. Leicester way. Leicestershire. Leicester. But before that happened the skipper noticed a landing place and it was, it was, it was a grass landing arrangement. It was [pause] I’ve just forgotten the name. I think, is it there?
MC: When was that? Was that while you were at Husbands Bosworth?
PT: When we came back to England that was.
MC: Yeah. It was.
PT: That was when we were [coughs] we were on a, on a —
MC: Was that at Millom?
PT: Pardon?
MC: Was that at Millom or Husbands Bosworth?
PT: That was —
MC: When you were at the OTU.
PT: That was, that was after Millom, I think.
MC: Yeah. The OTU.
PT: Yeah. And that’s when John spotted this landing. It was grass you see. It was a grass landing and they were training pilots because I met a chap there. He knew me from the Grammar School and we had a few days there and they were enjoyable and then we were carted back in a wagon to where we were you know.
MC: Because it mentioned that you force landed.
PT: Yes.
MC: At Penkridge.
PT: Yes. That’s right.
MC: Penkridge.
PT: Forced landing in this grass landing and we just of course it wasn’t it wasn’t designed for Wellington bombers it were designed for Tiger Moths you know. It wasn’t designed for [laughs] for landing these bigger aircraft and he just landed. And he’d had trouble landing this Wellington when we were at, when we were training on the Wellington. He had a devil of a job landing these Wellingtons. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. I was just about to ask you what aircraft.
PT: And —
MC: And you’ve just answered that. Yeah.
PT: The story goes that he used to just, he used to sing, “Johnny’s Hero,” when he were, when he were coming in to land you know. Anyway, we got through that and he landed and they just pushed the wheels over of this fence and that was it. We, we were carted back to the base with, to where we had come from with, in a van. In a wagon, you know. And the, they sent a chap to fly this Wellington to get it out of this grass landing affair. Of course, they landed in a, they landed in, they landed in a Morris Oxford, in an Oxford. There was an aircraft called an Oxford. It was comparable to the Anson.
MC: I know it.
PT: This Oxford, it had a little accident and landed so that was [other voices not part of interview] But finished with Wellingtons. We moved up to Lancasters. To convert on to Lancasters.
MC: Oh, it was a Conversion Unit. Yeah.
PT: Yeah. That was Woolfox Lodge and that’s where, that’s where I really was. I think about it even today one morning I was sat in the navigation room and there was a blue serge uniform. He was an officer and, and I didn’t really know this face but I knew the morning after when he wasn’t there that he was killed the day after. They came. This crew were regarded as being the best crew in the, in the intake. There were eight. I think they were either six or eight crews in the intake.
MC: Yeah. Can we just go back slightly? Obviously, you’ve gone to the Conversion Unit. When did you crew up?
PT: When what?
MC: When did your crew get together?
PT: Oh, did it, yes. When we moved from Millom where we’d done this Avro Anson flying we went to —
PT: Then you went to the OTU.
MC: Pardon?
PT: When you went to the OTU.
MC: OTU at —
PT: Husbands Bosworth.
MC: Husbands Bosworth.
PT: Yes. Is that when crewed up with them?
MC: Was that at Husbands Bosworth?
PT: Yeah. You’re not recording now.
MC: Yes. I am.
PT: Especially —
MC: Is that when you crewed up?
PT: Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. But that would have been a five man crew there.
PT: I often tell the story about my younger brother who was always a tendency to knock me, you know. And being knocked with the elder brother and knocked with the younger brother because I was the middle one and he, I’m trying to think. Well, he’d be surprised who chose the pilot because there’s a story about who chose the pilot. Because I’m in the NAAFI queue or some queue and I’d been [he's left the door open] We moved from Millom to Husbands Bosworth and that’s where we crewed up. And we were in this queue and somebody tapped me on the shoulder and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘We’re looking for a navigator. We’ve got, we’ve got an air gunner and a mid-upper gunner and a wireless operator and a bomb aimer,’ he said. ‘But we haven’t got a navigator.’ And, ‘Would you like to join us?’ They knew I was a navigator. ‘Would you like to join us?’ And that. ‘Yes. I’m happy to join you if you think I’m suitable.’ And from there we chose the pilot. The pilot was called Dennis Johns and he was a, he’d been a public school lad but he was, he wasn’t, he didn’t strike me as being a very well educated man but he, he was, he was alright.
MC: Was he a good pilot?
PT: Sometimes we wondered. I wondered. They wondered about me with navigation. I wondered about him. But I have to say yes he was a brilliant pilot because we finished [laughs] We finished.
MC: You arrived at Husbands Bosworth. Yeah.
PT: And there’s, that’s where we crewed up.
MC: Yeah. You said.
PT: And we chose, we eventually chose this Johns for a pilot. We chose him. My younger brother would have essentially have said the pilot chooses the crew but no it wasn’t like that. It was always different to what he thought because he was, I was not knocked with, I had two brothers. An elder brother and the younger brother and I used to get knocked from both sides so —
MC: I remember you saying. Yeah.
PT: But —
MC: Yeah. So you went on the, on to the —
PT: I won though you know because they’re both dead [laughs]
MC: [laughs] Bless you. So you went to the Conversion Unit on to Lancasters.
PT: I went up to the, yes and this is where there was a tragedy. I don’t, I didn’t mention it.
MC: Yeah.
PT: There was a tragedy because they were, they were reckoned to be the best crew.
MC: Ah, you said. Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And —
MC: His uniform was there.
PT: And they were coming back from a diversionary sweepstake. No bombs. No. No. The war had nearly finished and they were coming back and they lost an engine and then they flew a bit further and they lost another engine. And then as they were coming in to land they had to just turn like that and he lost another engine. He went like that and they were all killed. And he was the chap that was sat next to me the morning before and he was, and I think, I think many a time about that that family losing that boy.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Because he was an officer. I probably wouldn’t have bothered if he’d been a sergeant like I was [laughs] Stamina.
MC: So, so when you finished at the Conversion Unit —
PT: Yeah.
MC: You were then posted to your first, your squadron.
PT: Yes.
MC: What squadron was that?
PT: 149.
MC: And where was that?
PT: Methwold.
MC: Methwold. So you —
PT: Methwold was a satellite of, I think it was a satellite of Mildenhall.
CS: You’re on the Mildenhall Register, aren’t you?
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yes. And that was obviously with the same crew. Johns.
PT: Oh yes. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: We were on. We were, we were crewed up together for about two years and then in the middle of 1946 I would say, you know. After we was, we were together from nineteen forty —
MC: Yeah. The story, I think goes while you were there about the Astro compass. Can you —
PT: Oh yeah. Well, that was on the operation.
MC: Oh, was it? Which operation was that?
PT: The Kiel.
MC: Oh Kiel. Yeah.
PT: Yeah. Kiel. Yeah. I should have kept my mouth shut but I didn’t as usual. Big mouth. No. I put this, I put this Astro compass . It was a disastrous operation. We got to the to the Danish coast and I warned the skipper. I warned him. I said, ‘We’re much too early. We’re at least twenty minutes. Fifteen twenty minutes too early. We should be doglegging.’ And of course, there’s a risk when you dog leg that these oncoming on stream can be, you can —
MC: Collisions.
PT: Go in to one.
MC: Yeah.
PT: So he didn’t want to do that. He said, ‘We’ll go in with the first wave.’ Typical Johns you know. And anyway we, I think when we, I think we were so early that when I got the message from what was being said that the main target was under the wing when we, when we got through so we missed that. So we turned around and we turned back to come back and this is where there was such lack of brains. We should have made allowances for all the time that we’d lost when we should have gone back up over the North Sea and got away from any impending German fighters because as we were flying the rear gunner said, ‘Port go.’ And Johns just put his wing [psst] and we lost about twelve thousand feet in no time. When we pulled out of this operation we were about six thousand feet, or six hundred feet. I’m not quite sure but I know, I know it were, it was a bit dangerous.
MC: So where does the Astro compass come into this story?
PT: Well, when, when we, I don’t know if it was before or after but when we were flying along and we were, we were trying to find out where we were the astrocompass it does not give you a fix but it gives you a position line. So when you put the astrocompass in the right way around, the first time I put it in the wrong way around but I mean that was so what? You were under a lot of stress then you know. I turned it around and put it in the right way and I said, ‘We’re going in a westerly direction skipper. You’ve no need to worry.’ And I asked him. I said, ‘Is your P4 compass working?’ He said, ‘Yes, but it’s better that you give me the position line,’ because the P4 compass it’s a bit dodgy really. It’s not, not too reliable. Anyway, we ploughed on and ploughed on and we, we had this incident with a fighter, with a German fighter when he said, ‘Port go.’ That meant go and Johns —
MC: Corkscrew.
PT: Responded to Cherokee. He was called, our rear gunner was called Cherokee and he came from Dumbarton. Yeah. Are you recording all this? Very good. And he came from Dumbarton and he was only a little fella but he were a good rear gunner. He spotted this one that was approaching us and went [psst]. We lost a lot of time. I think double quick time and never saw that guy. Now, possibly he thought well the war’s over why, why risk myself? Because he could have got shot down you know. We never saw him again and we kept ploughing on and ploughing on and then, then we, we flew as somebody said it’s a, we’re flying over a big lake and I knew what that was. It was the Zuiderzee as I knew it. And we got through the Zuiderzee and by that time, I’ve forgotten to mention that all through this operation the Gee box which gave you a fix, it gave you a position line and, and both. With the Gee box it was, it gave you a fix. You got these two posters.
MC: Yeah. Height and —
PT: The B Posts and the C Post and when you lined them up you locked the machine and it gave you a reading. And you had a special Gee box map which told you your, you read off the numbers and you got where you were.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And of course, it’s a lot. We was trusted. A bit stressful, you know.
MC: Well, the navigator. Yeah. Right. Of course.
PT: Yeah. Anyway, we got through this Zuiderzee.
PS: But they were jamming you, Peter weren’t, they were jamming you.
PT: Got through the Zuiderzee.
CS: At night. At night.
[recording paused]
MC: Yeah, but —
PT: Somebody else. And he said, ‘It hasn’t been so good, sir’. He said, ‘You’re first back,’ he said, ‘And don’t worry about anything,’ he said, ‘Because they’ve been all over the sky this operation.’ He said, ‘It’s been a real shocker,’ he said. ‘So you’ve done very well.’ And when I signed my, I signed it you know he said, ‘And that’s,’ he said, ‘When you get to Civvy Street,’ he said, ‘That’s signature is worth two thousand pounds.’
CS: Dad. When, when you did, when you dropped height when you’d seen the German fighter.
PT: Yeah.
CS: Isn’t that when all your —
PT: Oh yeah.
CS: Instruments went up in the air.
PT: When he, when he went like that.
CS: When you dived.
PT: He went. You flew up in the air and landed on the floor and dropped me down on my hands and knees trying to find these instruments you know. Pencil and that you know. Bits of stuff that you use you know.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: There was I think it was about as big as that book and it gave you, you set it up and it was a, it was like a mini computer.
MC: Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah.
PT: You know what I mean.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: You know what —
MC: Navigation computer. Yeah.
PT: Eh?
MC: Your navigation computer.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: Yeah.
MC: So the story also about the [unclear] navigator who was, whose Lanc crashed when he came back from a diversion raid.
PT: Yeah, and then crashed.
MC: What happened there?
PT: Well, they went —
CS: That’s the one that [failed]
PS: You had that.
MC: Oh, that is the same one is it. Yeah. It is.
PT: They went, they went they went on a diversionary sweep and as they were coming back they lost an engine. They were at Woolfox Lodge.
MC: Yes. That’s the one you were telling me about. Yeah.
PT: They lost an engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And then they lost another engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And —
MC: Yeah. You’ve told me about that. He flipped over his back.
PT: Over.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And they were all killed.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And that was the chap that was sat next to me the morning before and I knew who he was.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I didn’t know him personally but I know, I knew who he belonged to. So that was very sad. I’ve been thinking about him over the last —
MC: Bless you.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Terrible.
MC: So —
PT: Terrible loss to that family.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I think about it even today after all seventy or eighty years. Yeah. Terrible.
MC: Yeah. Do you want to have a break?
[recording paused]
PT: Worked at weekends. He was a subset. a sub editor on the —
CS: Was it the Thompson’s Newspapers up in Dundee?
PT: This is ET Thompson’s.
MC: Jock Fraser you say.
PT: Eh?
MC: Jock Fraser.
PT: Yeah. Jock Fraser. Yeah. It’s his dad.
CS: Was it his dad?
MC: What did he do on your crew?
PT: He was the bomb aimer.
CS: Was he not eighteen months ago dad?
PT: He —
CS: About eighteen months ago.
PT: Yeah. Is it eighteen months?
CS: Yeah. Something like that.
PT: Yeah.
CS: I mean he must have been well in his nineties too.
PT: Yeah.
CS: Yeah.
PT: He was the, I think, I think if you were reckoning brain power he was the, he was a very clever chap really. Good with words you know. If he wrote a letter he didn’t write pages. He wrote all that was necessary in one page and he were, he were clever you know on words. You know, he was, he was a good friend.
MC: So, tell me about this losing the engine.
PT: Pardon?
MC: You lost an engine during —
PT: Yeah.
MC: Coming back on.
PT: What happened was that after the war it were three group. Certainly 149 we were designated to photograph up to the Russian demarcation line. So sometimes we went down towards Switzerland and we were supposed designating —
CS: Designated.
PT: Different areas which we were trying to photographing but we’d a lot of trouble coming, going and coming because of the cloud formation. You couldn’t photograph if there were cloud formation. [unclear] Catherine’s mentioned. One morning we were at 9 o’clock we were at off, off the Norwegian coast and we were just, just about to either come back because there was not, we hadn’t got the too much cloud or some reason and we turned around. As we turned around as we were flying we lost an engine. So no problem we were coming back on three. So I wanted to go to the nearest landfall which was the Orkneys. Johns, Johns of course said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘We’re alright. Straight back to Cromer.’ Cromer which was the landfall into our base you see.
CS: Do you mean Cromer?
MC: Cromer. Yeah. I know. I realise what he meant.
CS: Yeah.
PT: Now in the Fleet Air Arm the navigator is the captain. Did you know that?
MC: Yeah. You told me.
CS: Maybe he wished —
PT: I’ve just told you now.
CS: Maybe he wished he’d been the captain that day.
MC: Then.
PT: I’ve told you now haven’t I?
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: I hadn’t told you before, had I?
MC: No. You hadn’t. No. I was thinking something when you said about the pilots. So yeah. So you made, you wanted to come back to nearest landfall but he decided to come —
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Come back to base.
PT: ‘No,’ he said, ‘We’ll be alright. We’ve got three.’ Well, that one that that this guy was with me.
MC: There was always the chance you’d lose an another one wasn’t there?
PT: Yeah. They lost three didn’t they?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. You didn’t want that happening to you.
PT: They lost three and lost their lives.
MC: Yeah. You were making, so why did he need to get back to base?
PT: And that same night [pause] Say what were you going to say.
MC: No. Why did he want to get back to base and not land up north?
PT: Perhaps he had a girlfriend that night. I don’t know.
CS: Well, my dad, my dad thought it was a girlfriend.
PT: He had a girlfriend in London. We could have had a trip to, there’s a place on the Norwegian coast. Now that name is just I haven’t got that name.
CS: Bergen?
PT: Eh?
CS: Bergen. Stavanger. Bergen.
PT: No. Not Bergen. No.
CS: Stavanger.
PT: Eh?
CS: Stavanger.
PT: Stavanger. No. No.
PS: Trondheim?
PT: Anyway —
CS: Trondheim.
MC: Trondheim probably.
CS: Trondheim. Trondheim.
PT: No. No.
PS: Tromso.
PT: Anyway, the thing was —
CS: What did you say? Trondheim. What was the other one?
PS: Tromso.
CS: Tromso.
PT: Eh?
CS: Tromso.
PT: No. I don’t know. I’ll have to look it up. That, that opportunity to go there and stay there.
CS: Right.
PT: It could have been dangerous but it was an opportunity to be based in Norway. Or Sweden.
CS: Do you mean, do you mean when you lost your engine to go and fly back to Norway.
PS: No.
CS: You don’t mean that do you?
PS: No.
PT: Say that again.
CS: I said you don’t mean when you lost an engine to go back to flying to Norway to land do you?
PT: No.
CS: No. You don’t mean that do you?
PT: There was no question of going back. No.
CS: No. No. No.
PT: The [pause] no there was no question and we never thought about that.
CS: No.
PT: Possibly we could have done if we’d thought about it but you don’t always thing about these things when —
CS: No.
PT: When you’re stressed.
CS: No.
MC: So did you, did you, I mean you did a raid on Kiel but after that it was did you fly any ops bringing prisoners of war back and —
PT: Yes.
MC: Operation Exodus.
PT: Did one of those.
MC: Operation Exodus.
PT: And I did two dropping food over Holland.
MC: Oh, Operation Manna. Yeah.
PT: Manna. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: There was a badge for that too.
MC: Yeah. I believe so.
PT: I never got that.
MC: I believe so. Yeah.
PT: A friend of mine who’s now deceased he got that badge. He, he was keen on badges and stuff like that. I couldn’t be bothered. Then when we were, when we were on, when we were at Methwold we were, we were wearing the 1939/45 badge. And then, and some others which would, I can’t just remember and they told us that we couldn’t wear that badge. You couldn’t wear that and that’s when Fraser said. ‘Well, if we can’t wear that badge, we joined up in 1943 and it’s 1946 if we can’t wear that badge well we won’t wear any of them.’ And he just he just washed his hands of it. Fred. And we just fed up with it and he gave the, gave the medals that he had, he gave them to his kids to play with he were that fed up.
CS: Yeah.
PT: But I I don’t know.
CS: So what were you, there was a badge you were given and then —
MC: Was this —
CS: And then the Ministry of Defence took it back off them didn’t they?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. It was a medal. He was on about, yeah you’ve got it down here. Peter.
CS: It’s amazing actually isn’t it that he did it?
PT: That’s Peter’s stuff.
MC: Yeah, it is. I just [pause] So when did you, I mean when did you fly over Niagara Falls?
PT: Oh, that was in Canada.
MC: Oh, while you were in Canada where it was.
PT: You can’t fly over —
MC: Not from the UK you can’t.
PT: You can’t. You can’t fly over Niagara Falls in Norway. It’s in Canada.
CS: It’s because he was based, he was based in Toronto.
PT: No. I was on a trip in Canada.
MC: I thought you’d gone back over there.
PT: Toronto to Hamilton and I was with this Flight Lieutenant [Bowen] who was, he was sort of, ‘I’ll go with, I’ll go with LAC Thomas today for a change.’ It was designed to see that everybody was being, was working according to plan. And he was with me that particular day and when we got towards Hamilton he he just. none of the civilian pilots on the shore and I don’t know what they were saying but he turned and we went to, we went to, and he turned and we went to Niagara falls. So we flew around and saw Niagara Falls from height. So when we were around the crew reunion do at, at the, at the hotel in, in Toronto. I just forget the name of the, in the big hotel and of course there were these menu things and Flight Lieutenant [Bowen] he was signing them, you know. Flight Lieutenant Bowen put his name. “Flight Lieutenant Bowen. Remember Niagara.” You know. That was that.
MC: Good memories.
PT: Super.
MC: Good memories.
PT: Super. Yeah. Wonderful.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So if we come back to, at 149 Squadron you flew Operation Exodus. Exodus and Manna. You flew on Manna. Were you quite low flying on Operation Manna, weren’t you?
PT: What?
MC: You were low. Flying low on Operation Manna supply drops.
PT: I didn’t know this. The don’t tell you about losses you know. I mean when we were at Woolfox Lodge and that one kite crashed on the runway nobody knew about it. Only that that same night some fighter bombers came over and shot two more of our intake. I’ve never mentioned that before.
MC: No.
PT: But that’s what happened.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We lost, we lost three crews out of our intake and I think there were eight. Eight crews. Eight sixes. There were six in a crew you see until we got the flight engineer and we didn’t get the flight engineer until we got to squadron.
MC: Yeah.
PS: I think where you were going with that Pete was that some aircraft were lost in Operation Manna.
PT: You said that.
PS: Yeah.
PT: It’s him that has [pause] it’s him that started all this nonsense. He fired us up and fired me up and —
PS: We got you the book about —
MC: Yeah, when I’ve talked to odd people, Dutch people I talked to Dutch people and they tell me about waving to the aircraft because they were so low.
PT: Yes. They did that with me when we went to, when we dropped food over Holland they had a big wide circle with Germans. They were starving too. With Germans and Dutch all around this and of course as we were dropping these boxes of margarine and whatever they’d be rushing in. But we weren’t, we were bothered about that because if you don’t get off the ground, if you don’t get off the, out of that situation and I remember being stood behind the pilot and a lady came out of a [pause] roof like and waving this Union Jack. That was good, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. You were low enough to see it all.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Never seen [pause] No. No.
MC: Yeah. So I think they were very —
PT: But do you know —
MC: They were very pleased to see you.
PT: Do you know, Mike. Is your name Mike? Yeah. I remembered your name. Mike. We went to a camp in nineteen, I just don’t know when it was. We were avid campers my wife and, well we had no alternative with children. We did a lot of camping and we got to a site near Riez. That’s the major town there. Riez. When you go to Riez you go about fifteen kilometres and you get to this Lak de St Croix and this lake was formed, it’s a, it’s a barrier supplying water to Marseilles and it was, it was the gorges of Verdun. Not the north one. The south one. There’s two gorges. There’s two gorges. There’s this one gorge and that one is in the south and he comes down and they started filling this barrier that they’d made, the French and it took them five years to fill. And when we got there in 1978 it were just about filling up. Yeah. Yeah. And they were swimming in it and paddling in it and of course the big thing was wind surfing so big head Peter went. I had a windsurfer off John Claude. He was the guy you know and I didn’t I fall off it [laughs] but we learned and my wife was a better windsurfer than me because the Dufour wing board, it was a little bit light for me. I weighed fifteen stone. I really needed a heavier [unclear] as he said. John Claude said, ‘You need a [unclear] Peter.’
PS: But Peter there was a Dutch —
PT: But we made friends with them you know.
PS: There was a Dutch connection at St Le Croix. The Dutch connection.
PT: Yeah.
PS: There was. That’s your story isn’t it? The Dutch were there.
MC: The Dutch.
PT: Oh, a lot of Dutch people there. Do you know you can’t believe this that we went to that camp for ten years and I never [laughs] I must have been as thick as two short planks I never ever, never mentioned that I’d ever been in an aircraft. That I’d ever been RAF navigator, you know. Which was a big big thing.
MC: To the Dutch it was.
PT: A big thing when you dropped food to them.
MC: Yeah. It is. Very much to the Dutch.
PT: And they were never mentioned.
MC: Yeah. They you are.
PT: Never mentioned that.
MC: They have got great affection for the RAF.
PT: I’ll give you, if I can get your address you can write to them and tell them you’ve interviewed Peter Thomas.
MC: I see, I see you also did a Cook’s Tour.
PT: Pardon?
MC: You also did a Cook’s Tour.
PT: Did a —?
MC: A Cook’s Tour of the Ruhr.
PT: Oh afterwards. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was —
MC: Yeah. You went all over.
PT: Yeah. That was, when we did that Cook’s Tour we took about a dozen blokes in the ground crew you know. And that was a dangerous operation you know. Somebody, I don’t know who it was but they were, it came through the grapevine that somebody pulled a ripcord or something and we lost an aircraft, you know. When you pull a ripcord and it puts a boat on the wing. And that, now when you’re flying you don’t want boats on your wing do you [laughs]
MC: So, tell me what —
PT: There were, there were some, these were Army blokes who should have just, they should have just been like that ‘til we got there and somebody pulled the rip. So they said. I wasn’t in that aircraft.
MC: Fortunately. Yeah. So you mentioned in your logbook review. What was, what was the review? What was that. The review. It’s got review Norway. Review Switzerland. Review Med and Nice. Southern France.
[pause]
CS: Dad, you need your reading glasses.
PT: A map of Norway there. We landed at Woodbridge.
MC: Oh yeah.
PT: That was a big airfield to land. A big aerodrome. That was an emergency landing there that we did that.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We did a lot of things that you forget about you know. I mean that one. The biggest when —
CS: Why did you —
PT: When you think about Johns and his flying when you landed on that grass runway at Penkridge that was superb. And that —
MC: He did a good job.
PT: You never bothered about landing after that. No.
MC: Yeah. No, I was just wondering what it meant by review.
CS: Dad. Dad, why did you an emergency landing?
MC: Yeah. Because you did some photographs. Took some photographs, didn’t you?
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Well, we went to Switzerland. Switzerland and the Mediterranean at Nice. Southern France.
MC: Yeah. You said about your emergency landing. I’ll come back to what you were saying earlier because you said you made the emergency landing because you lost an engine, didn’t you? Was that it?
PT: That was in Norway.
MC: Yeah. When you were coming back from Norway.
PT: When we, when we got to Norway.
MC: That’s right. You did do that. Yeah.
PT: We were just about to start the photo and we lost this engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And I wanted to come back via John O’Groats.
MC: Yeah. Yeah, we did talk about that. Yeah.
CS: You talked about it.
MC: Yeah. I thought that was the one that —
PT: ‘Oh no,’ he said ‘Give us a course back to Cromer. We’ll go straight back over the —’ Of course, we’d three engines and when you’ve got three engines you should be doing something about it. Now that firm that lost their lives was the best crew. They came back from the northern, north coast of Germany who lost two engines and then they turned.
MC: Yeah.
PT: To land. You know you have to, you bank don’t you to —
MC: Yeah.
PT: They did that and lost another engine.
MC: Swept on his back.
PT: They went over and they were all killed.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And that chap was, that chap was the serge uniform that I was aware of when they were sat next to me. I don’t know his name but I’ve thought about him many a time. I’ve thought about him since I’ve been holed up here.
MC: You also mentioned in your logbook about different operation names like [Sinkum.]
PT: [Sinkum.] That were dropping bombs over. [Sinkum.]
That was getting rid of —
They were getting rid of —
MC: Yeah.
PT: These, what was the —
MC: Incendiaries. The bombs.
PT: Yes. When they bombed they dropped these —
MC: Mines. Oh no. They wouldn’t be the mines.
PT: They dropped these. Made fires.
MC: Incendiary bombs.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We dropped those.
MC: Dispose of them. Yeah.
PT: To get rid of them over —
MC: Over the North Sea. Yeah.
PT: Over the Welsh Coast. Over the water of the Welsh Coast.
MC: Give them to the Welsh.
PT: You what?
[recording paused.
MC: So, you enjoyed your time in the RAF did you?
PT: I did what?
MC: You enjoyed your time in the RAF.
PT: I enjoyed everything that I’ve ever done except being too close to Peter Selby [laughs] If you say the wrong thing to him and for goodness sake don’t point to him [yeah] I didn’t point. I thought about that.
MC: So when did you come. When did you —
PT: He’s my best friend and when I want any advice I go to him and usually he provides me with the right advice. Not enough money but advice.
MC: So when, so when did you finish?
PT: He’s been great hasn’t he Catherine?
MC: Yeah.
PT: He’s been great.
MC: When did you finish with the RAF? Let me see.
PT: 1946.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: No. I think. No, it might have been early ’47.
MC: ’46. No. This is crashing in a Mosquito. This is a new one.
PT: Yeah. I had a crash in a Mosquito.
MC: Did you? Where was that from? Where were you flying from on that?
PT: That was from [pause]
MC: Were you at Methwold then?
PT: Eh?
MC: Were you at Methwold then?
PT: Feltwell.
MC: Oh Feltwell.
PT: No. No. I wasn’t at Feltwell.
MC: Methwold.
PT: Can I have a look at the book? [pause] The navigator, and somebody said, ‘We’ve a, we’ve a flight test going on in a Mosquito. Have you somebody you could send who wants an air trip?’ and I said, ‘No. There’s nobody here. I’m the duty navigator and there’s nobody here.’ And he said, ‘Oh well, that don’t matter. Do you want to go?’ And I said, ‘Oh, yeah. I’ll have a go.’ So I went in this Mosquito and this chap had, he’d got a, he’d done well in over the Mediterranean. He had, he had an award for what he’d done in ground, the ground loop to an aircraft. Not a Mosquito. It was a two engine job. I’ve forgotten the name of it and you could, you could ground loop it like that and you got away with it. But he didn’t. He tried to do that when we were landing this Mosquito and it just shot into this field you know and cut, just cut my arm. I was next to him of course and he was up with the lid and out. Being first out. Of course, it didn’t fortunately set on fire and then the group captain came around and had a word with me and said, ‘Are you alright, laddie,’ sort of business. ‘Yes sir.’ [laughs]
MC: But nobody was really hurt.
PT: No. No. No.
MC: No.
PT: But he got a, he got a black a black mark on his logbook. He got —
MC: Was —
PT: I don’t know just what he got but he was —
MC: Was the aircraft a write off?
PT: Oh well. It was pretty well buggered [laughs] Well, the, it was, a Mosquito was essentially a plywood affair.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And in the accident it broke the fuselage here and it cut my arm here. Only a slight cut and of course he went around all the camp. [unclear] accompanying the navigator to the pilot he had, you know you’d have thought they’d have had my arm off you know. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah we were lucky then. And that taught me not to do any more reserve flights you know [laughs] So I didn’t, I don’t think I flew —
MC: So you were station navigation officer at that time or —
PT: Pardon?
MC: You were station navigation, navigating man.
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: At that time.
PT: For a bit, yes. At that place.
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: Well, I was, it was two years from being a sergeant in Canada. That was in about the 19th of June. Nineteen, nineteen —
MC: It would be ‘46 would it?
PT: What time was, have I made a note to you when we were finishing in Canada? Nineteen.
MC: You have. Yeah, 1944 wasn’t it?
PT: Yeah. 1944. Yeah. That’s when we finished in Canada.
MC: Yeah. You were a sergeant then.
PT: I was sergeant when I got, not until I got back to —
MC: To the UK.
PT: No. That’s right.
MC: So what rank were you when you finished in the Air Force?
PT: When I finished? A warrant officer.
MC: Oh, you did make warrant officer.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I made a mistake. I should have, I should have had a uniform you know but being tight fisted I thought well I won’t be needing that when I go in Civvy Street but I wish I’d have got it now. There was a serge one, you know.
MC: Yeah.
PT: It was an officer type uniform.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: You know. Is this my tea?
CS: Yeah. I just topped it up. They might be able to supply him with one if he goes to this awards do, do you think. Mike?
[recording paused]
PT: Friendly with a girl you know.
Other: Can I interrupt for two seconds. I need to find out what he wants for his tea.
[recording paused]
MC: I’ve paused it. Right. It’s paused anyway.
CS: What do you want for tea, dad?
PT: What do I want for tea?
CS: That’s ok.
[recording paused]
MC: So you went back to work. Did you find it a bit calm, mundane after. After flying? So, this was —
PT: He was a nice bloke.
MC: So this was a souvenir from your 92 navigator’s course.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I should be on that somewhere.
PS: LAC Thomas. You’re on the list there. LAC Thomas.
CS: Has he told you about going to New York?
PS: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
PT: No. I haven’t told. No.
CS: Oh, haven’t you talked about —
MC: Yeah.
PT: This chap that I met on the boat going to Canada he was, we were on the ship, on board ship and he finished up in the next bed to me and we got, we got quite, well we were friends. We only lost that friendship when he got a commission and the other fellow was from St Austell in Cornwall and unfortunately he was lost on a, on a [pause] on a Mosquito. When he came back instead of I did the same thing I volunteered. I made application to go on Mosquitoes rather than Lancasters because I thought it would be safer you see. Anyway, I didn’t. I think they were choosing officers and I was only a sergeant. So I missed it but this fella got it and he was lost on a —
MC: Yeah.
PT: He was lost on a trip on a Mosquito with a Canadian, a South African pilot who came over when we went for a tour with my Javelin. The first car I bought. We called at this cottage. We made enquiries at St Austell and the man said, ‘Oh, it’s my wife. On the roadside. It’s a cottage. Go and knock on the door and it’ll be you.’ And when we went into this room it was just like a mausoleum. There were all these things from, from him being in the Air Force and [pause] sad. His mother lost her only son.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And it was sad.
MC: So, did you find it, going back to when you came out the Air Force was it difficult? Was it difficult to settle back into civilian life after four years of flying?
PT: Not for me. No.
MC: No. What did you think about the job that Bomber Command did?
PT: What Bomber Command did?
MC: Yeah. During the war.
PT: Well, like the guy who was running it. Harris. He was called Harris, wasn’t he?
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: Harris.
MC: Bomber Harris.
PT: He said if we just keep bombing them a bit longer they would [laughs] they’ll give up.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We lost a lot of lives that we could have avoided but you see they’d have been Bomber Command lives. So, I don’t know. I don’t know. I were glad I didn’t —
MC: What about Churchill?
PT: Pardon?
MC: How did, did you get much about what Churchill was doing and Churchill was —
PT: Not then. No.
MC: No. Yeah. Yeah.
PT: People didn’t. They didn’t tell people. You know, when that, when that aircraft crashed upside down you know we got, we didn’t get to know that. We just got to know that it was lost. Somebody else told us something else.
MC: Yeah. So, I mean, post-war Bomber Command wasn’t recognised probably for want of a better word as it should have been. How did you feel about that?
PT: I think it was, I think we were underestimated.
MC: Did you get the clasp? Did you get the Bomber Command clasp?
PT: No.
MC: You didn’t send for the clasp.
PT: No. I haven’t anything.
CS: Have you applied for that?
PT: Have I got a clasp?
PS: No. No. You didn’t get the clasp.
PT: No.
PS: You had —
CS: He’s made enquiries.
PS: Yeah. Nothing’s about —
CS: He hasn’t made —
[recording paused]
PT: He, if there are any clasps —
MC: If you what? Sorry, what was his name?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What was his name? Victor.
PT: Victor Tytherington.
MC: Oh right.
PT: Have you heard that name?
MC: No.
PT: No. Well, he, he was a navigator late on and he went and he trained in South Africa and he, there was various, there was a Manna clasp for dropping food over Holland. There was something for that. I haven’t anything for any of them.
PS: So we —
PT: Sorry.
PS: I could fill in the gap.
[recording paused]
PT: A tour of ops on Bomber Command. You know, like joining Methwold. If that job had have gone on, it finished of course but if it had gone on you’d have to do thirty ops before you’d finished your tour.
MC: A full tour was thirty. Yeah.
PT: Thirty. Thirty two. I don’t just know. I know there was a gunner in Todmorden and he did about eighty odd in a, as a gunner. Henry he were called. There were a few in Todmorden you know. Just navigators and stuff you know but we never bothered. Got to do. I had enough to do with this bakehouse that I got shuffled into with my dad.
MC: You were in Todmorden?
PT: Pardon?
MC: You lived in Todmorden.
PT: Todmorden.
MC: Yeah.
CS: [unclear]
PT: I was fifty years in Todmorden.
CS: Yeah. He was born in Nelson.
MC: I used to work up that way. How long were you a baker then?
PT: When I came out of the Air Force I had the, aircrew they had the chance of going to university. That was the first mistake I made.
CS: You could have gone.
PT: Me and my wife, no matter now said, ‘Well, you were that busy trying to get your end away.’ [laughs]
CS: But also you said you could have gone into BOAC.
PT: With her.
MC: Yeah. Did you consider BOAC?
PT: Pardon?
MC: Did you consider BOAC? British Overseas Air —
PT: When I was, when I was at Methwold, yes. I could have gone on BOA, BOAC. I was asked to go with having this Reserved Occupation in the Treasury Department I turned it down but I’m not sorry about that. I never felt sorry about that really.
CS: But you also thought, he said they wouldn’t need navigators. That’s why he didn’t want to go to BOAC.
PT: When I left, when I left the squadron and the outfit, when they brought the crew up I don’t know where Johns went but Fraser, the bomb aimer he joined another crew and, but I went. I went north and I did an instructor’s course and I was, when I was, when I was on that test flight I was supposed to be an instructor at this aerodrome. The aerodrome. There’s that many around there. There’s, it could be North Luffenham. There’s a lot of different ones. Cottesmore. Woolfox Lodge.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was tragic when they lost that one you know. That were just poor bloody maintenance. There was, there was a little amusing incident. I was in a, we were in a NAAFI queue and you know the ATS people? They deliver aircraft. Well, a person had. We were sort of in this queue for the NAAFI and over to our left a person not known at the time man or woman walked and had a helmet on and they were, the ATS people they used to deliver any sort of aircraft. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancasters, Halifaxes. Any one they could fly them. And on this particular occasion there was a queue like of the pilots you know, and they were sort of saying, ‘Great job that,’ you know. And suddenly this great job [laughs] pulled her helmet off and she were a woman and all the pilots that were in this queue you know and we said [laughs].
[recording paused]
PT: I think when I, when I got the, when I got back into the Grammar School stream through sheer luck really I think that’s when I enjoyed it. And my brother, younger brother he hated the Grammar School but I liked it and I liked this teacher, Mr Fowles and Miss Graham and all different people. I loved it. Yeah.
CS: His younger brother was six and a half years younger.
PT: I didn’t do particularly well because I was always going out with this girl or that girl. I had a girl from when I was at Grammar School [laughs] yeah.
CS: His, his —
MC: A bit of a lad were you?
CS: His young brother, his younger brother —
PT: A lad yeah.
CS: Was in the military police.
PT: Yeah.
CS: So he was there in Germany when they had the trials you know for the —
MC: Oh yeah, Nuremberg —
CS: Yeah. That’s right.
PT: I probably missed a lot out really.
CS: So what are you going to tell us about the ATA?
PT: Not a —
MC: Yes. It was ATA, wasn’t it? Yeah. Air Transport Auxiliary I think it was. Yeah. I mean they were good pilots some of them.
PT: Pardon?
MC: They were good pilots some of them.
PT: Oh yeah. They had to pilot anything. They would jump into a Spitfire or a Lancaster. They were good.
MC: Yeah. Well thanks very much for your interview, Peter.
PS: Shall I put that —
MC: Thank you very much.
PT: You know all these crew members? Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
CS: Gunner.
PT: Mid-upper gunner, rear gunner, wireless operator. If you want to, if you want to contact them for any information unfortunately they’ve all gone. They’re dead.
MC: You’re the last one.
PT: So you can’t. You can’t. You can’t say, ‘Is it right what Peter Thomas said?’ I’m the last one.
MC: I believe every word you said Peter.
PT: I mean they were, they had their moments, you know. I mean Peter’s told me things about dropping food over Holland when I never thought anything about it but they were, they lost aircraft there hadn’t they Peter?
PS: Yes. According to the book on Operation Manna.
MC: Yeah. They lost three.
PS: Three Lancasters on that.
PT: And I did —
PS: They collided I think.
CS: Collided.
PT: I did two. It did two to the Hague. To the Hague.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And, and we I don’t know just which. I tell you what we did one to Juvencourt.
MC: Oh yeah.
PT: And we brought, we stayed overnight and then we brought a lot of ex-prisoners. British boys who were prisoners. Prisoners of war.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was, that’s tragic.
MC: Yeah. Juvencourt.
PT: When you hear of one being lost through stupid pulling at a rip cord and you know you can’t believe how daft people are.
MC: There were a few aircraft lost when the prisoners were brought back.
PT: Anyway, it didn’t affect me.
MC: No.
PT: We only did the one and one’s enough. Well, when we were at Juvencourt we went, we went drinking. These French [robbing] us you know with this cheap wine you know and I can’t, I can’t understand why I finished up on my own and I finished up in an American camp and this, this American said, ‘Oh sure. We’ve got a place for you boy.’ I went and I slept in this American camp and I wasn’t, I were on my own you know. I don’t know where any, we’d been drinking this wine. I didn’t know where the hell I was and this American said, ‘You follow me and I’ll finish you.’ That sort of talk you know. I thought that were wonderful. I really, I enjoyed the Grammar School. You see at the Grammar School in 1940 I’d been there then about four or five years and a lot of the boys they’d been called up and I lost a very good mentor of Harry Marsden who was lost on a ship in, opposite St Nazaire. He was, they battened him down and he was lost. Harry Marsden. He was my mentor. He was the cricket captain. The head of the school. The football captain. If you mentioned Harry Marsden he was in it, you know and we lost him.
MC: He was in everything.
PT: 1942 he was killed. He was killed on this ship. It was an, it was a British warship. I forget the name of the ship and it was outside St Nazaire and it got sunk and they battened it. They saved a lot and they didn’t get, they didn’t get Harry out. He was, he was battened down and that was sad you know when we were going on to another course you know. I mean when we got back from Canada we were at [pause] we were at Millom. Well, we were at Pannal Ash College and they sent us up to Millom and we went back flying on Avro Ansons.
MC: Yeah. So you brought plenty of —
PT: Chicken Rock and up to the islands and back, you know.
MC: You brought plenty of stuff back.
PT: Then we went to, then we were posted to —
MC: Husbands Bosworth.
PT: Husbands Bosworth. Husbands Bosworth, yeah. And that’s where we crewed up and we were on Lancasters.
MC: Yeah.
PT: No. Not Lancasters. Wellingtons. And that’s when we went and converted on to —
MC: Lancasters.
PT: Lancasters. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So when you came back from Canada you brought a load of stuff back with you from Canada. Cigarettes and stuff like that.
PT: When I came back from, when I was in Moncton they said, we had a, we had a kit bag. A Canadian. And a Canadian kit bag and they said, ‘If you want to get the maximum amount on board ship,’ he said, ‘You’ll have to buy a Canadian, not a Canadian one but a special one they had for erks like me. And it were a bag. It stood about that high and of course you didn’t need the others but I had that many cigarettes and stuff and bottles of cream for my mother that I put this this big kit bag and I had a pack. What did they call it? Like a —
MC: A rucksack.
PT: Knapsack. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And I put this big one, I got somebody to lift it up and it lifted on like this and it were, it were about like this you know and when we got to the ship, when we got to the ship you know I was just hoping that we would have just gone up one step and on to the ship you know. And we went up this gantry you know. Up and up and up with this and when I was [laughs] when I got to where I was supposed to be I were absolutely knackered with this. With this big kit bag you know full of cigarettes and bottles of cream for my mother and stuff like that. Yeah. I enjoyed that. There were moments when you were a bit fed up you know and I mean I got walloped with a master who was, he also hit me but he’d been reported in a magazine that he’d hit a girl the same way. He just, for some, I didn’t know what I’d done wrong and he just whacked me across the face and Geoffrey my younger brother said, ‘He did the same to me.’ And then in this magazine, “Reunion,” this girl said she got whacked with him. He were a bully. He was a bully.
CS: Dad —
[recording paused]
MC: So I’ll just finish up by saying thank you for the interview anyway Peter. It’s much enjoyable. I’m, I thank you very much for doing the interview.
PT: Yeah.
MC: It’s been very good. Very entertaining.
PT: It was good, was it?
MC: Yeah.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peter Thomas
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AThomasPG180302
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:33:14 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Devon
England--Harrogate
England--London
England--Norfolk
England--Rutland
England--Yorkshire
Scotland
Canada
Ontario
Ontario--Toronto
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
North America--Niagara Falls
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Peter was born in Nelson, Lancashire and had two brothers. He was sixteen when he left school in 1940 and got a job until joining the Royal Air Force in 1943. He went to London Air Crew Reception Centre before going to Initial Training Wing at RAF Paignton. He then moved to Cambridge where he spent time on Tiger Moths. He was told he would be a navigator and from there he went to Liverpool to sail to Canada and start his training before going to Moncton receiving centre and then on to Toronto. On one occasion Peter flew over Niagara Falls. After training Peter got shipped back to Great Britain, arriving in Scotland before going to Pannal Ash College. He then moved to the operational training unit at RAF Husbands Bosworth where crews were formed. The crew went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Woolfox Lodge to train on Lancasters with 149 Squadron. They were then posted to RAF Methwold. When training on Wellingtons they had to make an emergency landing due to loss of an engine. He also recalled a trip in a Mosquito when the pilot crashed the aircraft but no one was injured. The crew was sometimes designated to take aerial photographs and was also involved with Operation Exodus and Operation Manna. Peter was demobbed as a warrant officer. After the war Peter and his family did a lot of camping. He said he had enjoyed everything he had done in life. Peter thought that Bomber Command did not received the recognition it deserves.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
149 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
forced landing
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Mosquito
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Methwold
RAF Paignton
RAF Woolfox Lodge
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington