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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1184/11756/PWalkerT1801.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1184/11756/AWalkerT180717.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Walker, Tom
T Walker
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Tom Walker (b. 1925, 1590544 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 462 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Walker, T
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: This, so this is Gary Rushbrooke for the International Bomber Command Centre 17th of July 2018. I’m with Tom Walker and his son [buzz] And Tom, if you can just tell us a little bit about your early life. I know we’re in Rotherham. Was you born in Rotherham?
TW: No. I was born in Stainforth, near Doncaster.
GR: Near Doncaster.
TW: Yeah.
GR: So fairly local.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Brothers and sisters?
TW: I’ve got, one sister was in the ATS. The other one, she was a qualified nurse and she was a sister in Barnsley Hospital. She joined the Army and went over on D-Day 3.
GR: Right.
TW: And she went right to, to Germany to until they got to Germany. When they got to Germany they flew her back over here and flew her out to Burma.
GR: Right.
TW: And she ended up as a major.
Other: Matron of Bombay Hospital.
TW: Bombay Military Hospital.
GR: Oh right. Were your sisters older than you? Or —
TW: Oh yeah. I were the youngest of the lot. Yeah.
GR: You, you were the youngest.
TW: Two brothers and father worked down Hatfield main pit.
GR: Right. That’s what your dad did, did he? He worked in the pit.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Did you go to school around here? Locally to Doncaster?
TW: Me.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah. I was in the ATC.
GR: Yeah.
TW: When I were fourteen. And after a couple of months I started going to the technical college at night.
GR: Right.
TW: So it got me fit you know. I could do maths and everything perfect.
GR: Yeah. So you left school at fourteen did you?
TW: Pardon?
GR: Did you leave school at fourteen?
TW: Yeah. Yeah. And —
GR: And is that when you started going to technical college?
TW: Yeah. I was in the, I was in ATS.
GR: Yeah.
TW: No.
GR: ATC.
TW: Cadets.
GR: Air Training Cadets.
TW: Yeah. I got in them. And my mates were already in the Navy or the Army. So I said to my dad, ‘ I want to go in the Fleet Air Arm,’ because I’d got an uncle who was a manager in Portsmouth and I wanted to go in the Fleet Air Arm. And this guy said, ‘Oh yeah,’ because I was six foot then and boxing and he said, ‘Ideal. What we want.’ He said, ‘Now, where do you work?’ I said, ‘I’m a tool setter.’ He said, ‘You can’t go in.’ So, he said, ‘You can’t do anything about it. You can’t go in.’ So, I went back home to Stainforth and I never spoke to my father for a month. So he, eventually he said, ‘All right. Go on. Go.’ So that started it all.
GR: So you volunteered.
TW: Yeah.
GR: To go in to the RAF.
TW: Yeah.
GR: And did they, did you go to a recruiting office or —
TW: Yes. I went to [pause] that were in Sheffield and then when, when I went to another office for AT, for flying. And they said, ‘You’ll be three months before you can get in because of the places.’ And they give me a job in a [pause] making twenty five pounder shells.
GR: Oh right.
TW: And it was a catastrophe because women were chasing me. So —
GR: So there was you and about three or four hundred women in a factory.
TW: More than that. Anyway, I only stood it one week on nights. During the day they couldn’t touch me. But I went back to this office that they were making me, giving me a job and I went out on to building Sandtoft Aerodrome.
GR: Oh right. Yes. I know it.
TW: Yeah. And that was well paid for because I was getting paid a man’s wage and lodging allowance.
GR: That’s good. Yeah. Yeah.
TW: And then I’d been working all day. We got on the lorry to go back to Stainforth. I got off. I saw my mother down the, down the street. My papers had come.
GR: Oh yeah.
TW: And when I went she were crying.
GR: And this would be what? 1943?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Can you remember where you first went to, to start your training?
TW: Well, as I say I was in the AT.
GR: ATC.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: I was in there and the bloke who run it had been a fighter pilot in the First War and he was, he were brilliant.
GR: Yeah.
Other: You had to go to London then didn’t you?
TW: Yeah. I went to London. ACRC. Aircrew Receiving Centre at London.
GR: St John’s Wood.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: [Softley] Hall.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And it were a beautiful place.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And there were twenty in each room and this particular night we got in bed and there were two big, big rooms and then there were a corridor with sand, water and doings pump.
GR: Ah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: Stirrup pump. Stirrup pump.
GR: Stirrup pump.
TW: Aye. We, we’d just got in bed and these two blokes came in with water. Sprayed all our beds and us. So —
GR: That was your welcome.
TW: They were a big, big Geordie lad, farmer and me. I chased them and I hit this bloke. Knocked him out because all our beds were wet.
GR: Yeah.
TW: So, 9 o’clock in the morning I had to go and see the CO. And came out he was area bomber err —
Other: Boxing.
TW: Boxing.
GR: Right. And you were a boxer.
TW: And I, yeah. The bloke said this bloke he were a [pause] he said, ‘Oh, no. Go on. Clear off.
GR: Clear off.
TW: And it was next, that were next to London Zoo.
GR: London Zoo. Yes. Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Didn’t you used to get your meals in the zoo? Did you have to go across to the zoo?
TW: Pardon?
GR: Did you go across to the zoo?
TW: Oh yeah.
GR: Because that’s where you had your meals there. Didn’t you?
TW: That’s right. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. So —
TW: All there was all the lions there and everything making a noise.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. I think most chaps have said, you know.
TW: We could walk to the west, west end in London.
GR: Yes.
TW: From [Softley] Hall.
GR: Yes.
TW: That were brilliant.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Because it was like going from Stainforth to somewhere or something to —
GR: First time away in the big city.
TW: [unclear]
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah. And on the next street to where it was there were some old ladies with Rolls Royces all [unclear] Not, not NAAFI. This other —
Other: Women’s Institute, was it?
TW: Yeah. And we used to go in there and there were a table about like that big.
Other: Just hang on a sec.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
TW: And there was piles of all the shows in London.
GR: Yeah.
TW: All in piles all around.
GR: Very good.
TW: I’m going to get —
GR: Yeah.
[recording paused]
GR: So, after St Johns Wood where did you [pause] where did you end up after you had started your training?
TW: I went, got to Rotherham.
GR: Yeah.
TW: I was five months there. Then I went to Scotland.
Other: St Andrews.
TW: Yeah.
Other: Where the golf course is.
TW: The worst place I’ve ever been in my life. It was winter.
GR: Snow, wet and windy.
TW: Not a, not a, not no heating at all. And oh. Ah but at night you couldn’t even get in the cinemas or anywhere else because there were a Navy place there. And all the dancing was reels.
GR: Oh right. Yeah.
TW: I was glad to go away from there. Then I went down to London. To London again. And I did three months at Newquay. And then I started.
Other: Were it St Austell, were it? That one.
TW: Yeah.
Other: St Austell.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And then I went to start training at Riccall.
GR: At Riccall.
TW: Near Selby.
GR: Yeah. I’ve a friend who lives there at the moment. Did you know what you wanted to be? You know when you joined up.
TW: Yeah. Well —
GR: Did you want to be a pilot? Was you —
TW: I wanted to be a pilot.
GR: Right.
TW: And what happened was when I was on this ITW.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Initial Training Wing. They came to us and they said, ‘What do you want to be?’ ‘Pilot.’ So they said, ‘You’ll have to go a few weeks and go to America or Canada.’ And everybody had built up —
GR: Oh yeah. I’ll have some of that. Yeah.
TW: And then they came to, they came in to it one morning when we were on parade. They said, ‘There’s a surplus of pilots.’
GR: Yeah.
TW: Pilots, bomb aimer and navigator.’ So, I said what was there? And they said flight engineer. No. No. Glider pilots or doings [pause] or a gunner.
GR: Yeah. Air gunner.
TW: Flight engineer.
GR: Yeah. You went for flight engineer.
TW: I did about eight or nine months training from that and every, every week you had exam.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And if you didn’t pass it you go back again. And I were lucky. I got right through.
GR: Yeah. And that was at Riccall.
TW: Riccall.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
TW: No. No.
GR: Sorry.
TW: They were at, what was that one at —
GR: It don’t matter.
TW: Seaside. Anyway.
Other: What’s that dad? What’s that?
TW: Oh that place, at [pause] Not Newquay. The other place.
Other: St Austell.
GR: St Austell.
TW: No. Anyway, it don’t matter.
GR: Don’t matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
TW: And then I got passed out, you know.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And I went and then went straight up. Had nine days leave and then I went to Riccall and we had to go in this building and pick out a pilot. A squad. The rest of the crew.
GR: They crewed up. Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
GR: So, and you were telling me earlier that you ended up with an Australian crew.
TW: Yeah.
GR: So was that crew already formed? And then they got —
TW: Apart from a flight engineer. Yeah.
GR: So, they came. Did they come and get you or did you get them?
TW: Yeah. Yeah. They came to me.
GR: Good.
TW: And then we started training at Riccall. Bombing.
GR: Heavy Conversion Unit.
TW: No. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Heavy Conversion Unit.
TW: Yeah.
GR: HCU. Yeah.
TW: That was for them. It wasn’t me.
GR: Right.
TW: Because they had been on Wellingtons and things like that.
GR: Yes. Yeah.
TW: Anyway, we did all day training. And then night training. And then we went down to Foulsham.
GR: Foulsham. Yeah.
TW: Yeah. And one of, one of the things I told you before about the end of the war the last bombing raid we did was and they told us normally you used to go back to England about twelve thousand feet.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Don’t bother. You can go down low. So we went on this raid and then went to the Dutch Coast and we [pause] to the coast. About five minutes after the plane went right back like that. Bloody balloon on a ship.
GR: You were too low. So that was your last bombing raid of your war. What was your first one?
TW: Actually it was from Riccall because when you’d finished —
GR: Yeah.
TW: You went on one.
GR: Right.
TW: I think it was just in to Germany. Just in to German.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Unless it was German.
Other: Which was that one where where you had to go to that other airfield and Douglas Bader told you to get off the airfield?
TW: Oh well. We’d been on the southern side bombing.
GR: Yeah.
TW: You know, there was topside further north for Germany. Other one we’d been over France or somewhere. Come back and we went to Tangmere. That’s the thing. Landed Tangmere.
GR: Tangmere.
TW: Because there was thick fog.
GR: Yes.
TW: Right. So —
GR: Tangmere was a fighter base wasn’t it?
TW: That’s right. So, they took, they took us to a Naval barracks overnight and then go back and there were about seventy planes on this. German, American and the whole lot. Right.
GR: Yeah. All coming to Tangmere because of the fog.
TW: They had all gone and I was trying to get all the engines running. And what I did I got up inside the nacelle where the wheel, the big wheel went in. There were a pump inside it and I got up, got up into it and this bloke comes around and said, ‘What are you doing on my bloody airfield?’ And when I got out it were Bader. I’m on the route to taking off. I’ve roped all the lads in.
GR: Good stuff. Yeah.
TW: But I loved it, you know.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And, and I’ll tell you something that wasn’t about flying. The wireless operator was an older man and he’d been a gold digger and all sorts. A real character and he were my best mate. And we’d been in the sergeant’s mess having a drink and darts and I said to him, his mate came, an old mate of his came and he said, I said, ‘I’ll go and have a shower and get in bed then.’ So I’d not been in bed a while and ‘Tom. Tom.’ What is? What? He was at the side of my bed. No skin on his face. And what he’d done him and his mate had won, won two bottles of whisky and he’s, he’d drunk the whisky himself and he’d crawled because there were [pause] where all the Nissen huts were, were all rough concrete and everything.
GR: Yeah.
TW: He crawled all the way back and said what are we going to do about it? So we took him down to hospital, err hospital. Knocking on side and [unclear] doing.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And if he’d have been, if he’d have been an Englishman and an English thing they’d have let him off but they said, ‘No we’re going to. He’s going to get in trouble.’ So, ‘No. We’ll take him back and look after him.’ So we took him back and put him in bed and put a rope around him. And he were four and a half days living on oxo and bread.
GR: Probably taught him a lesson. Yeah.
TW: But he was such a character.
GR: Yeah.
TW: A typical Aussie.
GR: You obviously started on Halifaxes. Did you fly in any other aircraft or —
TW: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: Because when you first went to 426 squadron were they with —
TW: 462.
GR: Sorry, 462.
TW: Yeah. I went straight there. But when I came home to get married.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Three weeks before the war ended. When we came back after nine days it was all over the camp our plane had blown up because there were two crews for one. One plane.
GR: Oh right.
TW: One kite.
Other: You should have flown but you didn’t because you got married and the plane went —
TW: No. I said, while we were at the wedding and all that that plane has gone and got blown up on the end of the runway.
GR: With the crew inside.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Did the crew perish?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Right. Why was there, why would there have been two crews to the one plane?
TW: Well, you’d got to arm mostly every night.
GR: Right.
TW: Because a bomber, Lancasters were going out every night and we had to do it over a time. But there was two squadrons on Foulsham
GR: Yeah.
TW: 192.
Other: 162. 462 were it?
TW: No. No. 192. That crew. And they had Halifaxes like us doing the same thing. But they’d got Mosquitoes.
GR: Right.
TW: And when we went out they used to go up with us.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And they’d take off about twenty minutes, twenty five minutes later and they helped us to save us because it were that. The Germans wanted all of us killed on this 100 Group.
GR: Yeah, because 100 group were special operations.
TW: That’s right.
GR: Jamming German radar.
TW: What we had, we had a Canadian who could speak German as a woman or a man. And then he’d jam their radio.
GR: Yeah.
TW: So they didn’t know where they were going. But we went out with main force. Right.
GR: Yeah.
TW: On the route and then so far, so far along we’d turn off. Turn away. And then with this bloke who had special, dropping Window out so that they didn’t know which was the main. Which was the main stream.
GR: Yeah.
Other: You got a lot more leave didn’t you because you were on special?
TW: Yeah. We got —
Other: Special ops.
TW: Yeah. We got every month and Bomber Command got five, five weeks. Six weeks.
GR: Yeah. How many operations? Can you remember how many operations you actually flew, Tom?
TW: I was on nine from there.
GR: Yeah.
TW: One from Foulsham. From —
Other: Didn’t it work out —
TW: From Riccall.
Other: Didn’t it work out at thirteen you did —
TW: Yeah.
Other: But you said when you looked at the book other day you’d done more than that.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
Other: You’d done more in the book than you’d realised.
TW: Well, that’s right. That was the main thing anyway. Not nine.
GR: Yeah. And did you have any close encounters with the Germans while you were flying?
TW: No.
GR: Because they, they could actually track your aircraft because of the radar emissions you were giving couldn’t they?
TW: No.
GR: No.
TW: No.
GR: Because I thought they targeted 100 Group.
Other: You were deliberately doing it so they’d follow you didn’t they?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
Other: Yeah. So —
TW: To get away from main force.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Because there were that many blokes getting killed. Probably hundreds and hundreds a day because there were —
GR: Oh, there were. Yeah.
TW: About three hundred to about six hundred Lancasters.
GR: But because of that I thought the Germans actually targeted your squadron.
TW: Oh they tried to. Tried to —
GR: Yeah. They tried to get you more than.
TW: Yeah. Yes.
GR: Yeah.
TW: It was —
GR: Did they ever come close?
TW: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And the rear gunner were the best man I’ve ever known. He was brilliant.
GR: Right.
TW: Mid-upper gunner were frightened. He said if, of course when we were all going on the target where we were going to go. Me, the two gunners had got I had to, I could see out. Out of the plane.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And we were all watching all the time for them but he told me, ‘I’m frightened.’ So turned out that sometimes I had to go up in the turret. But they were right nice blokes.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Unbelievable living under them conditions.
GR: Yeah. Did they all survive?
TW: Pardon?
GR: Did they all survive the war?
TW: Did I —
GR: No. Did they all survive?
TW: Oh.
GR: Yeah.
TW: They with me. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
GR: And did they all go back to Aus, as soon as the war finished 8th of May ’45.
TW: What they did was they took the crews about four or five days. No. About say eight days afterwards.
GR: Yeah.
TW: They went straight back.
GR: They went straight back home didn’t they?
TW: Yeah. And the pilot, he were a gem.
Other: You went straight out to Germany then didn’t you?
TW: Yeah. And then —
GR: So I was just going to say so what happened to you? You’ve flown with these chaps. Then all of a sudden you’re on your own.
TW: Yeah. But he came to me. You know. Said how good I’d been with him.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Because you could get a lot of trouble with an aircraft, I’ll tell you that. In the war. But my job was that busy you’d no chance of being [pause] you know. You were that busy you weren’t bothered about what was happening.
GR: What else was going on because you had too much to do.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Because what you did I’d got a small paper like a cardboard computer that we’d got and you, when you, when you took off you had four engines.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Like when you got up to about ten thousand feet started back. Well, I’d already known what we’d done then and then after that every time that we changed petrol tanks I had to go to work it out where it goes. But what it was there was twelve tanks right. In the wings mostly. In the wings. And [pause] what was I going to say?
GR: You had to control the flow of fuel.
TW: Yes. That’s right.
GR: To all, to all the tanks.
TW: That’s right. But I’d got to control it right through until the next day. Well, what they did they filled the planes up to the top with fuel. Two thousand gallons.
GR: Two thousand.
TW: Right. And if you’d gone over fifty it makes a difference. Jankers. You were on jankers.
GR: Oh right.
TW: Well, I never went over thirty so —
GR: You were alright.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: But it is complicated when you can fly that plane on one tank or four. Four on one tank and two over but what it is when you took off with a full load when you got up to altitude that you want you had to start getting rid of the outer ones.
GR: Right. I was going to ask you.
TW: So that all the way through like that because [pause] Oh, I’ve just forgotten my thought.
Other: When you land you’ve got petrol’s on the inside or the outside.
TW: Well, that was done but no.
GR: You certainly had to have the weight dispersed evenly.
TW: I just forget.
GR: It doesn’t matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yes as flight engineers you had to control the flow of fuel.
TW: Yeah. Well, there was, there was —
GR: Do all this and do all that.
TW: The pilot or me could say no. We’re not going. You know. And engines had been in for servicing. The plane we had and when we, when we got out I thought chuffing hell, there’s something wrong here. We were getting hot. The engines. The engines were getting hot. So I worked it out and the radial engines, engines like that and they’ve got one of nine there and nine there. Pistons. And there’s a gill around. The rear one is cooler than the rear ones.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And this thing was getting boiling hot and I —
GR: It’s your job to sort it out.
TW: Yeah. Well, I rang the doings up and said it’s the gills. What they’d done they must have took the engine out and put it back on and it hadn’t been graded with these gills.
GR: Yeah.
TW: But put [unclear] back. Back of thing and we’d go about thirty, forty doings and I said to him, ‘You’ll have to slack back. Drop back.’ And we were going slow. Slower and slower and then when we turned around to come they were alright.
GR: Right.
TW: But it was, they were done, and when we came that one from Riccall we went on that raid and when we come back the, the lights for the wheels coming down wasn’t bloody working and we were flying around the doings.
Other: The airfield.
TW: And they were there looking out of the office windows to see if they’d come down.
GR: To see. Yeah.
TW: So, we did it for long enough and then I said, ‘No. Go on. Go to —’ I even went down to the back wheel, I said [pause] anyway we landed and everybody were like that.
GR: The wheels had come down.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Just the lights that weren’t working.
TW: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah. So why did they send you out to Germany, Tom?
TW: Pardon?
GR: At the end of the war you went out to Germany.
TW: What I did, they all went back and I went to Catterick and to say whether I wanted to stop in the RAF or come out and I said come out. So I went and I was a transport manager. And I just, I went to where’s the Dambusters?
GR: Scampton.
TW: I were there for about, about three months.
GR: Right.
TW: And then they said you’ll have to go to Germany. So went to Germany. Well, I went down to London and then we went up to Hull. And it was just starting to snow and we got on a boat on the doings and when we were going [pause] not going this was this a, this was a major. Once we get out of the, out of the —
GR: Out of the harbour.
Other: Harbour.
TW: The harbour.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Ten. I think it were ten doings.
Other: Force ten gale wasn’t it? Or something.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Oh right.
TW: If you went on the deck to go for a meal or anything the bloody snow was going like that. Anyway, we got to Cuxhaven and there were a foot of ice on the harbour.
GR: Bloody hell.
TW: And they took us to a place to sleep. No heating at all. And it was just a bunk. Wood bunks with straw in.
GR: Right.
TW: So I were there about five days and then I went or got to go to Northern Germany and it were 4 o’clock in the morning when we set off and then they stopped the train so far, about probably a hundred mile to put water in the train. And while we’re, while we’re sat there where did they go? Some little kids with aprons on with pockets chocky full of money.
GR: They were like begging. Yeah
TW: Police come down. Their police with coshers. How many were killed?
GR: Killed?
TW: Police.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Hitting these little girls and boys with bloody bayonets. With the soldiers
Other: Who killed the police then?
TW: Pardon?
Other: Who killed the police?
TW: I’m not telling you.
Other: Oh.
TW: It was. And then when we got to Hamburg.
GR: Yeah.
TW: At Hamburg on the boat there were a lot of national doings.
Other: National what?
GR: German.
TW: No. It was England. They’d, been, they’d got called up didn’t they? National. There were a name for them anyway.
Other: Conscientious objectors.
TW: No. No. No. No. We got there and I got off and I were going to go to Brunswick so [pause] and these lads because if you went to Berlin you had to take a rifle and fifty bullets.
GR: Right.
TW: That was so it couldn’t be done by taking us in bulk and Russians pinching the bloody everything.
GR: The Russians. Yeah. Because the Russians were in Berlin weren’t they?
TW: Yeah. So I said to these, these young lads that were only eighteen you know, they were frightened to death. I said if you, if they pull that door open what you are in, they were like goods thing.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And you know, ‘Shoot them.’ And they said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘Shoot the buggers else they’ll shoot you.’
GR: Yeah.
TW: And then I went on to Brunswick and I were there five months.
GR: Right. What, what was you doing in Brunswick, Tom?
TW: Pardon?
GR: What was you doing in Brunswick?
TW: Oh. Motor transport
GR: Motor transport. Oh right. Yeah.
TW: Mostly I used to do airfield because it were a little airfield on this. And I used to have to get up in a morning and there’d be a little aeroplane coming and I’d run down and this bloke come out and he were top bloke in the Army.
GR: Oh right.
TW: British Army. And he said, ‘Why haven’t you got a tie on?’ And I said, ‘I’ve just got out of bed.’ But if you’d gone there and saw that place. There were no housing, coal, electricity, water, food. They was eating all cats and dogs. Horses. Everything. Brunswick, there was just one building in the middle and it was run by these Jewish people and you could go in there. A little orchestra playing. You could go in there and say I want to phone home tomorrow. If you went back there were a phone.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: And did you get to see any other German cities?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Hamburg were flatted. Hanover were flattened. Berlin were bloody flattened. There was only one place open. Not touched. A place called Celle –
GR: Right.
TW: With a C.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Celle with a C. And there was a [unclear] on it and there were a platform and he were on a white horse directing traffic.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And [unclear] That was the worst place. They landed the airborne. We landed airborne. British.
GR: Yes.
TW: And that was the same. Only one building and it were, they used it as a garage. As a petrol.
GR: It must have took them years to recover.
TW: Oh.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Everything were flat.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And we were living in where these scientists had been. We were living in there at —
GR: Rightly or wrongly it was a job to be done though.
TW: Yeah.
GR: You know. You were there, you were there to bomb it.
TW: And this, this old lady looked after three. Three rooms. Three different blokes. And used to play hell with me [laughs] I’d say, ‘Who’s won the bloody war?’ But she were going to go but I made sure she got some food.
GR: She got food.
TW: She got that.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Aye. She used to come to my room at 5 o’clock and then they’d send it from our cookhouse to do doings for me.
GR: To do. So, she knew what she knew. Anywhere after Germany? Did you get reposted or —
TW: No. I stopped there.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And came back to England and got demobbed.
GR: Demobbed.
TW: My wife was ready for a baby so —
GR: Right. And you’d got married just before the end.
TW: Three weeks before the war ended.
GR: Before the end of the war. Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. What did you do after the war, Tom? So demobbed.
TW: I got demobbed. I went on a, on a building site and I went in a steelworks where it were all running up and down with red hot steel. And then I went on to open cast coal.
GR: This was back in Yorkshire. Back near Doncaster.
TW: No.
GR: No.
TW: This was at Wentworth.
GR: Wentworth.
TW: Wentworth in [unclear]
GR: Right.
Other: He drove.
TW: Best job. Best job.
Other: The big thing on, outcrop thing he drove. What do they call it? [unclear]
TW: I could drive any of them.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And I think I were there, I were there quite a while. Used to get paid and you were on a bonus all the time. So what you did, what the firm did, they gave us a national doings so I could go to the Post Office.
Other: Savings. A savings thing was it?
TW: No. You could just take this form down to the Post Office and you would get your wage and open.
Other: Bonus.
TW: No. No. What it was is if your wage went about something they’d give you these things.
GR: They’d give you extra.
TW: That’s right. When you could get it. I was ten or twelve hours days and nights. Well, the money I earned was unbelievable. And I did that for about four. I think it were about four years and then I went in to the steelworks.
GR: Right.
TW: And I went right to the top.
GR: Steelworks in Sheffield or —
TW: At Rotherham.
GR: Rotherham. That’s —
Other: Rotherham. Strip mills at Brinsworth.
GR: Strip. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: He went in with a Roller for years.
TW: I ran it for years and everything was happy.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And I’d got a lovely wife.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Up there.
GR: Oh yeah. On the wall.
Other: Where were you when you took my mum up in the plane?
TW: Yeah. Don’t tell anybody. They’ll prosecute me.
GR: They won’t.
TW: At Lindholme.
GR: Lindholme. Yeah.
TW: I was at Lindholme. Transport there for about six weeks and she rolled up from my mother’s, our house and I said, ‘I’ve got a little job for you,’ and I went and asked him, and the bloke said, ‘Oh, get in.
GR: What were, what plane did you take her up in?
TW: Lancaster.
GR: Oh, you took her up in the Lancaster. Who was the pilot?
TW: Eh?
GR: Who was the pilot?
TW: It was a training. Training.
GR: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
TW: Aye, but wait a minute do you know where Lindholme is?
GR: That’s now the prison, isn’t it?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. And at the end of the war it was, it was for Italian and German prisoners of war wasn’t it?
TW: No.
GR: No.
TW: What I’m talking about was if he were there I didn’t see it.
GR: Right.
TW: A bloke walking about with his parachute.
Other: Lindholme ghost.
TW: A ghost.
Other: Lindholme has a ghost.
TW: Ghost.
GR: Oh right. Yeah.
TW: Everybody, every bloody newspapers and all what but they were people on that said they’d seen him.
GR: They’d seen him but you didn’t. You didn’t see him.
TW: Oh, no. No.
GR: No. No.
TW: But it was in the Telegraph and Star and —
GR: Oh right.
TW: They were calling me but what it was is the peat bogs where he, where he crashed his Wellington [pause] But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the Air Force and everything.
GR: I think everybody I’ve ever spoke to.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Have said yeah war is a bad thing but their time in the RAF —
TW: The funny thing was when I first got to Lindholme I were walking down this road and this bloke said, ‘Do you mind? Are you going to salute me or what?’ I said, ‘What about these here?’ Well, he had —
Other: Stripes.
GR: Stripes, yeah.
TW: No. No. No. I’d got about five medals.
GR: So you were both in uniform.
TW: Aye. Yeah. And he said, ‘I’ll have you charged.’
Other: Weren’t you a higher rank then him then?
TW: He was a first, no he was a first doings but he’d come from school straight in.
GR: Right.
TW: And he said, ‘I’ll report you.’ I said, ‘You bloody report me,’ I said, ‘While you’ve been in bed I’ve been bloody bombing Germany.’
GR: Right.
TW: You know.
GR: What rank did you finish up as, Tom?
TW: I should have been warrant officer.
GR: Yeah.
TW: But it didn’t come through.
GR: Right. Because and also right at the end of the war I think all those who had become warrant officer they knocked them back.
TW: Yeah.
GR: To flight sergeants, didn’t they?
TW: Yeah.
GR: So, yeah. But —
TW: I was lucky as I say it was nearly the end of the war.
GR: Yeah.
TW: But I was only that age.
GR: That’s it. You can only join up when you can join up.
TW: Yeah.
Other: You got banned from your boxing as well didn’t you because they said it had cost too much to train you.
TW: Oh aye. I did. I’d gone up. My mother one day, no. I’d got home from school and I went to go down this road and this kid whalloped me one. He were about fourteen or fifteen and I were about ten. So my mother said, I were crying, she said, ‘Get off out and go and hit him. Hit him on his nose.’ So I did do and when my dad came, my dad were on nights regularly in the pit and he came around and said, ‘Who was was it?’ I’d gone and hit him. This bloke. This lad. Anyway, when my dad got up after he’d had his sleep he said, ‘Come on. We’re going down to our Teddie’s.’ And he were heavyweight pit man.
GR: Right. Boxer. Yeah.
TW: Aye. And they were three [pause] three wrestlers and three boxers and they’d got a ring in —
GR: Yeah.
TW: In a barn. And they were bloody lightning. I’ll tell you that. And I did that from fourteen, I think it was when I started that. Fourteen. And then I went into the RAF I started a boxing with different teams like.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And when I got halfway through last five month of —
GR: Training.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: They said, ‘You can’t box anymore because it’s costing too much to train you for your job.’
GR: Right. And you were beating everybody up. It was probably costing the RAF. All the people you were fighting.
TW: Aye, but one of the best one I ever had we were boxing against American Golden Gloves.
GR: Oh right.
TW: Bloody thing and during the day I’d already been in, there were a decompression chamber you used to have to sit in. Four on that side and four on this and they’d take the masks off that side, then pull all the air out of it.
Other: So you passed out.
TW: That’s right.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Until that one passed out and then you would have, they’d have to give you, you’d have to get to the other side. They made me do it twice and I were mad because I’d been training for this —
Other: You were boxing that night weren’t you or something and they made you go in the decompression chamber for some tests.
TW: Yeah. Anyway —
GR: The day before.
TW: I flattened him. He were only a young bloke.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Americans loved the RAF. Their Air Force.
GR: Yeah. Why? Well, I know they did but, you know.
TW: I’d got, I’d got leave and we was going to Kiel Canal and Lancasters dropped six ton bomb. Six ton bombs.
GR: Right. Yeah.
TW: Doings. And just we were just going to leave this bloke shouted me. He said, ‘Come here and have a look.’ You could see it laid on its side. This big, big battleship in water. Pilots clothes on, floating on —
Other: All the sailors clothes were on the side or the other,
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
TW: So I got on a train and there were some American doing and he said flipping heck he said, this bloke said, ‘You had a right night last night.’
GR: Last night. Yeah.
TW: So Lancasters shelled it definitely and then when I got, when I got home to Rotherham he didn’t like me, her old man so —
Other: That’s father in law.
TW: Yeah. He put wireless on and it said, “RAF bombers last night — ’ No. I told him and then it come on the news.
GR: Oh right.
Other: And he didn’t believe you when you said you turned that boat over.
TW: Yeah.
Other: What were it called? Can you —
TW: Von.
Other: Von Scheer were it?
TW: No. Von.
GR: There was the Scheer
TW: Von Scheer. That were it.
GR: Yeah. the Scheer which is S C H E E R. The Scheer.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Was bombed later.
TW: Yeah. That was the one. It were laid over in Kiel. Kiel.
Other: They bombed it and tipped it over didn’t it?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. There was the Von Hipper and the Scheer.
TW: Yeah.
GR: It would have been the Scheer then if you —
TW: We shot the, where they sank it.
GR: They sank the Tirpitz. The Tirpitz was sunk in November ’44.
TW: No.
GR: No.
Other: Bismarck.
TW: Before that.
GR: Oh, the Bismarck was the —
TW: Bismarck.
GR: Yeah. That was the Fleet Air Arm in 1941.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: That was, that was the same Von Scheer that turned over.
GR: Right.
TW: But in, in Hamburg Harbour there were a submarine had been blown out of the water onto the bloody quayside.
GR: You were doing a good job. The RAF did.
Other: They did all that lot and then helped —
TW: The RAF saved the world
Other: Helped to pay to rebuild Germany and now Germany want to rule it all again.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah. The RAF saved the world but if the Battle had Britain had failed —
GR: Yeah.
TW: They’d have got our Navy which was the biggest in the world.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Army. And Air Force.
GR: The fighter pilots did it in 1940 and then Bomber Command —
TW: Yeah.
GR: For the next four. Four and a half, five years.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Fifty five thousand men were killed.
GR: They were.
TW: In Bomber Command.
GR: Yeah. It was the highest casualty rate in the war.
TW: Biggest in the world.
GR: Apart from the German U-boat arm.
TW: Yeah.
GR: So, I’ll just put that down. That’s not bad.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tom Walker
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWalkerT180717, PWalkerT1801
Format
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00:49:46 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Description
An account of the resource
Tom was born in Stainforth, near Doncaster. His father and two brothers were miners. One of his sisters was in the Auxiliary Territorial Service and the other was a qualified nurse; she became a sister in Barnsley Hospital until she joined the Army. She then went to Germany and eventually to Burma before being made a major at Bombay hospital. Tom left school at fourteen and joined the Air Training Corps. A few months later he went to night school at the technical college, gained qualifications and went to work as a tool setter before volunteering for the Royal Air Force. He went to recruit in Sheffield and was given a job making 25lb shells. In about 1943 he received his call-up papers, and was posted at Rotherham, St. Andrews, London, Newquay and then to training at RAF Riccall as flight engineer. His Australian crew was at the Heavy Conversion Unit with 462 Squadron, then carried out carrying out nine operations. Tom married the week before the war ended and while on holiday his plane blew up on the runway, killing all the crew. At the end of the war Tom became a transport manager at RAF Scampton for about three months before being sent to northern Germany. He stayed at Braunschweig for five months on motor transport at a small airport. On returning to England he was demobbed and worked on a building site before moving to the steel works at Rotherham.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Burma
India
India--Mumbai
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--London
England--Newquay
England--Rotherham
England--Sheffield
Germany
Germany--Braunschweig
Scotland--Fife
Scotland--St. Andrews
England--Cornwall (County)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Group
462 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crash
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
love and romance
RAF Foulsham
RAF Riccall
RAF Waddington
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1207/11780/AWrightE180422.1.mp3
fd181733cc2437feb991f53462171948
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wright, Eric
E Wright
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Eric Wright (b. 1933). He accompanied his father on fire watching duties and witnessed bombing.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wright, E
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MS: My name’s Michael Sheehan. I’m at [buzzzzz] and I’m interviewing Eric Wright. Is it ok to call you Eric?
EW: Yes.
MS: Thank you. Right. My name’s Michael. The date of the interview is the 24th of the 4th 1918. The time is five to eleven. 2018 not 1918 [laughs] I’m a hundred years out, aren’t I? Right, Eric.
AS: Also present —
MS: Oh, yeah. Also present, thank you very much, I’m being corrected by my beautiful assistant, is Audrey Wright who’s here, who is Eric’s wife on his behalf. And also with me is Anita Sheehan who is one of the other interviewers for the IBCC. So, are you happy to be interviewed, Eric?
EW: Yes.
MS: Basically, recordings of these interviews are intended to pick up the stories of people who administered the damage such as the bomber crews, the people working for the Bomber Command and also most importantly people who themselves suffered as a result of the bombing or who witnessed the conflict. And you were —
[recording paused]
MS: The recorder, because it’s doing some strange things. It’s actually flashing as we’re talking which is not what it should be doing so I do need to stop. Sorry about this —
[recording paused]
MS: Yeah. The recorder appears to be working ok. So what we’ll do is we’ll continue with the interview, Eric. Ok. Right. So, now then, as I said before would you like to tell me a little bit about your recollections prior to war?
[recording paused]
EW: We lived at Rotherham and —
[recording paused]
EW: Fought in the First World War, got me and —
[recording paused]
EW: [unclear] Drive, at Rotherham. And we got all the blackouts up and everything and it was quite keen, you know. They used to come around and make sure there was no –
[recording paused]
EW: Dad was by this time in the Civil Service and he was appointed as manpower services manager.
[recording paused]
EW: I suppose at that age you took it all in your stride. You, you took it in but basically there was no immediate effect so you didn’t sort of worry about it as a young kid. You know. It was as simple as that. You went to school.
[recording paused]
EW: Other youngsters were talking about it. But it didn’t register that you could have a bomb dropped on you or things explode, you know and all the rest of it. It just didn’t register and life went on.
[recording paused]
EW: Anyway, we moved to Nottingham. We moved to Gordon Road at West Bridgford.
[recording paused]
EW: And then things started to happen there because mother had got rheumatoid arthritis and although they built a community shelter on —
[recording paused]
EW: So they equipped us with a table shelter. A Morrison table shelter. There was two —
[recording paused]
EW: Morrison but I came across a lot of people who, who had an Anderson table shelter. It replaced the, it replaced the living room table and was most peculiar and it was quite a plaything for me because we used to have a big mattress in there, you know [laughs] We used to go in there.
MS: Can you describe it to us?
EW: Yes. It was four very solid steel legs with a steel sock and right around the outside of it was a mesh arrangement with a door where you could get in.
[recording paused]
EW: Peculiar really. It was very cold, you know with it being metal but once you got the mattress in it was ok.
[recording paused]
EW: At this time having been transferred to Lincoln.
[recording paused]
EW: We got a number of air raids in Nottingham but we, if we didn’t go to the communal shelter —
[recording paused]
EW: There was one or two bombing raids and you know being a young kid and that you were, we could hear the bombs whistling down and the bang at the end of them and I used to say, ‘Oh, that was a good ‘un.’ [laughs] It wasn’t. Far from it [laughs] And then one night the roof came in and it came through the, it came through the bedroom floor immediately above and there was a lot of slates and dust and what have you.
[recording paused]
EW: ‘Still. Don’t move. There will be somebody here in a minute.’
[recording paused]
EW: And about an hour after that. I would think it would be a quarter of an hour somebody came.
[recording paused]
EW: ‘Are you all alright?’ And mother shouted no so the door was forced and in they came and they started moving all the rubble that was down in order to get the door open to get us out and we got out. And mother said to me, she said, ‘Come on. Get ready for school.’ You don’t, [laughs] didn’t happen. She said, ‘Get ready for school. You’ve got to meet Michael.’ Michael lived across the road and we went, you know every morning we walked to school. So I got ready for school and I said to mother, ‘Ok, I’m going.’ She said, ‘Alright. Be careful. Don’t pick anything up.’ [laughs] Of course, we was encouraged at this time to pick up any shrapnel up we found and it used to be put in a bin at school. And of course it used to go back and melted down and made into ammunition [laughs] to be sent back to Germany.
MS: Return to sender.
EW: Yeah. So I went out the front door for school and I looked across the road and I just couldn’t believe it. Michael’s house was flat [pause] And I just went back in. I said, ‘Mother, I’m going to school on my own.’ I said, ‘Michael’s flat is just a heap of bricks.’
[recording paused]
EW: She said, I didn’t know about that. I said, ‘Anyway, I’m going.’ So I went to school and we was both in the same class and something that I’ll never really —
[recording paused]
EW: Roll call in the class and they missed Michael Cousins off completely. She just went through the list, called, ticking the register off and all the rest of it. And then a little girl, she said, ‘You haven’t called Michael’s name out.’ So, she said, ‘No. Michael won’t be at school today.’ And she said, ‘He’s going to another school.’ Right.
[recording paused]
EW: We knew what it meant. I mean there was no two ways about it. We knew what it meant. But we, well it just carried on, you see. They kept us occupied with the lessons and all the rest of it. Also, the school was damaged. This was one of, most probably the good part [laughs] because we hadn’t the class rooms and consequently we couldn’t go to school every day. We went to school about two and a half days a week and they used to use people’s front rooms as classrooms. So you might be on one street one day and another street the next, you know, and you had to find your way. You was expected to find your way.
[recording paused]
EW: And then it was just over a year we was at Nottingham and then dad came home. He came home from Lincoln and he said, ‘We’re moving.’ So, I said, ‘Right. Where are we going?’ And he said, ‘You’re going to Lincoln.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘Where’s that?’ [laughs] I hadn’t a clue where it was. So, we came to Lincoln and we came, he rented a property on Crane Grove at Western Avenue. I don’t know whether you know it.
MS: I know Western Avenue.
EW: Yeah. Well, it’s —
[recording paused]
EW: At the time Skellingthorpe Aerodrome was operational and when they took off at night they used to come straight over us and we used to stand in the upstairs bedroom window and count them out at night. And quite often we used to count them back in, you know and it was always a talking point because one was —
[recording paused]
EW: I suppose really in Lincoln with having so many aerodromes all the way around us we didn’t, didn’t suffer an awful lot.
[recording paused]
EW: Raleigh bikes and Boots at Nottingham because I think at that time —
[recording paused]
EW: Raleigh was making these fold up bikes which the troops used to use.
MS: Paratroopers. Yeah.
EW: Yeah.
[recording paused]
EW: We was lucky in Lincoln to a certain extent but we had one incident where —
[recording paused]
EW: Came over and it crashed on Highfield Avenue which is just off Skellingthorpe Road.
[recording paused]
EW: I think we’ve gone through this haven’t we because there’s some, there’s some paperwork in there that was written up by somebody from the Echo only a short while ago. Not that one.
MS: No.
EW: It’s another one that’s in there. And I said we was on the Skellingthorpe Road School field playing football like and named was a lot of other lads who were there at the same time.
[recording paused]
EW: I went down. We weren’t allowed down then because the street was, Highfield Avenue was shut off.
MS: Yeah.
EW: So —
[recording paused]
EW: I believe Dave lost his sister. His younger sister. And there was quite a few people —
[recording paused]
EW: And that was a training exercise where that bomber came down. So —
MS: There were a lot of training accidents.
EW: So that was that. And then of course we got the situation where dad was going —
[recording paused]
EW: Watching duties and ARP duties and all the rest of it. Telling people that [laughs] blackouts weren’t working.
MS: I understand that on one occasion you accompanied your dad.
EW: Yeah.
MS: To Lincoln Cathedral which was a fire watching position.
EW: Dad being one of a group of W’s where they were rota’d for fire watching was the last Friday in every month.
[recording paused]
EW: The place of fire watching was on top of the Lincoln Cathedral.
[recording paused]
EW: I ate at him for weeks and weeks and weeks to take me up there when he went fire watching. And then one Friday night he came home and he said, ‘You’re coming with me tonight. I’m taking you up on the Cathedral.’ And I think —
[recording paused]
EW: There were four. There used to be four of them go and they were all W’s and I think one of them wasn’t fit to go.
[recording paused]
MS: What was that?
EW: Wright. Walton. Wooton. Right.
MS: Right.
EW: Now what the fourth name was I don’t know but I knew Tommy Walton very well because he was a very good fisherman and he taught me how to fish in the River Witham.
[recording paused]
MS: Good pike river.
EW: Oh yeah. We mustn’t go in to this.
MS: No. Go on. You were poaching. Never mind.
EW: No. We weren’t poaching. We had licenses.
MS: Yeah. I’m only pulling your leg. Tell us about the Cathedral.
EW: Anyway, we got up on to the Cathedral and it was absolutely fantastic you know. I think my mind was oohh just the vista and everything. A young lad, never been up as high as that before I don’t think. I mean I’ve been down collieries and I’ve been down pits. Of course, grandad worked in, well he worked on the winding gear at Wath Main colliery.
MS: Oh.
EW: And no, it was absolutely wonderful. Wonderful night and all the rest of it and dad just said, ‘You make yourself scarce while we get on with what we’ve got to do.’ And that, if I remember right they had to log out from the various sections where they could see and it was section —
[recording paused]
I went in to the shed and I was reading. There was a little bit of an oil lamp in there.
[recording paused]
EW: The sirens went and I got up and I thought well, I’m going out to watch what was happening.
[recording paused]
And then this German bomber about all over the sky and there was some tracer bullets. Now, I’ve queried this. Would they have been, would they be using tracer bullets at that time?
MS: I don’t know about the time but I do know tracer bullets were used.
EW: Yeah.
MS: It depends on the state of the aircraft.
EW: Right. Anyway, there was bombs dropped and they sort of catalogued this on a sheet. Where the bomb flashes went. You know, the explosions were.
MS: Could you tell?
EW: Well, I more or less knew the direction from up, up there where they were falling and then of course there was quite a few on Monks Road and that area. And —
[recording paused]
EW: Report, it tells you that the plane flew down the High Street.
MS: We’re referring here to a report from the Echo. Lincoln Echo. I’m not sure what date it was.
[recording paused]
EW: Disappeared sort of south and it was chased from there. And I do know there was two bombs dropped in Boultham Park but nobody mentioned them because there was no damage.
[recording paused]
EW: There was, there was also the damage done on Dixon Street and I remember the plane going down. I hadn’t a clue where, where it was going down. Of course, it’ll have that —
[recording paused]
EW: Elevated. You was more or less —
MS: Yeah.
EW: Level with the top of the ridge, you know and it went down. It was shot down.
[recording paused]
EW: That was that and when they come to the end of the stint of course that was it. We went home. On the [laughs] on the Monday morning at school I happened to say to someone, they were on about this, you know, the bombs that had been dropped, all kids as they were. And I happened to say that I was on top of Lincoln Cathedral with my dad who was fire watching and that was the wrong thing to say and it went through the school, you know. I was mobbed. ‘What did you see?’ ‘Did you see the plane shot, shot down?’ And at assembly I had to go on stage in front of the full school [laughs] tell them what happened. And when it got to the point where I say I saw the plane when it was shot down and disappeared, and the explosion when it landed, you know. When it hit the ground and all the rest of it every body cheered like mad. You know.
MS: Yeah.
EW: All the kids at school. Cheering like mad.
MS: How do you actually, what were your, what were your feelings when you were on the roof? What —
[recording paused]
EW: I wasn’t all that happy quite honest because you didn’t know what was going, I mean they avoided the Lincoln Cathedral. You know, there was no, there has always been this thing about Dresden and I’ve been to Dresden anyway, but there was always this thing about Dresden but they did an awful lot of damage in this country so I don’t worry too much about Dresden. You know, I just don’t worry. It was bombed.
[recording paused]
EW: Everybody’s attitude hardened you know. Even us. Even us as young kids.
[recording paused]
EW: I think a lot of people of my age who went —
[recording paused]
MS: I just want to check that the thing’s counting up [pause] Yeah. It’s, the recorder I believe is behaving in a very strange way. I think what it’s doing is when we go quiet it goes on to a different —
EW: Oh, it will do.
MS: It starts. Yeah. I’m going to, this is something I’ll look at later but it’s recording properly anyway. I want to ask you about something which is not a very pleasant time in your life. 1943 was when you were on the, the top of the —
[recording paused]
EW: Mother [pause] went to Sheffield to see her mother and father and she had quite —
[recording paused]
EW: Had a shelf around the room with a lot antiques on it.
[recording paused]
EW: And at the time she said, ‘I’m going to Sheffield.’
[recording paused]
EW: She said, ‘You and Linda — ’
[recording paused]
EW: She went to Sheffield and —
[recording paused]
EW: She wasn’t in a good way at all and the doctor moved her in to Lincoln County Hospital. And —
[recording paused]
EW: From what I remember of course they used to shelter things from you as kids, they used to shelter things from you, was that there was another raid while mother was in Sheffield.
[recording paused]
EW: She got an injury and that’s why doctor put her, when she managed to get home. Don’t ask me how but she did.
[recording paused]
EW: The doctor put her in Lincoln County Hospital and —
[recording paused]
EW: Then of course there was another raid. A bad one in Sheffield. Grandad was injured but grandmother lost her life.
[recording paused]
EW: My sister agrees with me on this because we have talked about it.
[recording paused]
EW: She used, prior to that she used to tell us, ‘I shan’t be long before I’m home. I’m feeling —'
[recording paused]
EW: Point of sixty years afterwards we was all in Devon weren’t we having a bit of, sort of a bit of a family reunion and we was talking about this and she said, ‘Yes —'
[recording paused]
EW: I said, ‘I don’t even know where she was buried and — ’ I said, ‘Because I wasn’t allowed to go to the funeral.’
[recording paused]
EW: My sister, who isn’t Linda really. They called her Rosalind but she got Linda as a shortening.
MS: Well short [laughs]
EW: So, she said, ‘Well, she’s in Burngreave Cemetery at Sheffield.’ So, I said, ‘Right.’
[recording paused]
EW: Finally, I don’t know who I we got in touch with. Did I get in touch with the Sheffield Bereavement Services?
AW: That’s right.
EW: Yeah.
[recording paused]
EW: By return of post they gave me all the information.
MS: This one we’re seeing here?
[recording paused]
EW: There’s that.
[pause]
[recording paused]
MS: Out here. What’s that then? That’s Burngreave Cemetery Summary Report.
EW: Yeah. That’s summary report.
MS: Yeah.
EW: There’s also, it’s a wonderful place. It really is.
MS: Was this war graves?
[recording paused]
MS: Chapel, Cemetery, Victims of the Great War 1914-1918. Remembered in Burngreave Cemetery.
EW: No. What is in here —
MS: Not the Great War obviously.
EW: No. What is in here is a lot of reference to the East Yorks Regiment which dad served in in the First World War.
MS: Right.
[recording paused]
EW: No. But as the years have gone on, you know and really —
[recording paused]
EW: Disabled daughter and another son and daughter that she’s —
[recording paused]
EW: I said about this. The funeral. I was at Doncaster when the funeral was held and my auntie and uncle went to the funeral and I said, ‘Why can’t I go?’ And I was told —
[recording paused]
EW: You get babes in arms at funerals now.
[recording paused]
MS: Can I ask you a question? It’s a bit personal. You lost your —
[recording paused]
EW: It was difficult. I mean Auntie Marie does —
[recording paused]
EW: For me and a lot for my sister. And it wasn’t until dad employed a housekeeper —
[recording paused]
EW: And she moved in and sorted everything out and then —
[recording paused]
EW: When I was in Doncaster I went to another school and this was a lot of problem with my education. I chopped and changed that many schools you know and you had to make fresh lot of friends and all the rest of it but no it was just that I was told, ‘You’re not old enough to go to a funeral.’ You know.
[recording paused]
MS: What I want to do now is I want to —
EW: My sister went.
MS: Oh yeah.
EW: And it was a very bad day apparently and Burngreave Cemetery is, I regard it as being a little bit of a unique set up because as you’re going —
[recording paused]
EW: In to the cemetery, goes between those two chapels. Now, one of the chapels was where all services was held for —
[recording paused]
EW: Chapel was where services was held for other denominations as it were.
[recording paused]
EW: And it’s more or less derelict today.
AW: Shame.
EW: Yeah.
[recording paused]
EW: There which we have done, haven’t we?
AW: Not for a while though.
EW: Not for a while.
[recording paused]
EW: Difficult drive to get there quite honestly. It’s alright. We do —
[recording paused]
EW: Grandad bought the plot and they’ve all gone in there.
[recording paused]
EW: It’s difficult.
MS: Because?
EW: Well, it’s consecrated ground of course and the strange thing about this, my sister said that when she was alive she said —
[recording paused]
EW: ‘When you go to Burngreave,’ she said, ‘Take a Rosemary bush and plant it on the grave. She said Rosemary was mother’s favourite plant. So we took this little Rosemary bush, didn’t we? I took a trowel with me and all the rest of it and I thought, I’m digging down and I thought this is —
[recording paused]
EW: I didn’t know what to do about this, you know. I thought well I have to plant the Rosemary bush but what’s that canister?
[recording paused]
MS: Not far down.
EW: No.
MS: Very odd.
EW: Virtually on the top, isn’t it?
AW: Ahum.
EW: Because it’s quite stony ground. And anyway, I mulled this over for quite a while about this and finally I got in touch with Sheffield Bereavement Services and we arranged to meet the people who looked after the cemetery and —
[recording paused]
EW: It was round.
MS: Yeah.
EW: And it was some sort of plastic. Or like plastic material.
MS: Was it grey?
EW: A greyish yellow.
MS: I’ve seen an urn for a —
[recording paused]
EW: The, the people that looked after the cemetery. They came up and they dug it up and they said, well there’s no reference to who it is, but they confirmed that it was ashes.
[recording paused]
MS: Propose to do at the moment is just pause the interview if that’s ok to give you a break. Yeah. And for me to also check that this is still working. Is that, ok? It had better be.
AW: Would you like a cup of tea?
[recording paused]
MS: I’d love a cup of tea please. The interview is paused at half past eleven. Eric, thank you very much so far. I’m just going to make sure this is working.
[recording paused]
MS: I’m from Lancashire. Anita’s from Bristol. Thanks Audrey. Right.
[recording paused]
MS: Right. Resuming the interview with Eric Wright. It’s now twelve minutes past twelve. Eric, thank you and Audrey for the tea and biscuits and the laugh in the interim. Let’s [pause] I wanted to just ask you about something. You showed me some photographs just now and they were of Belsen camp. The place where—
[recording paused]
EW: We used to have church services at Belsen. Belsen. And we used to go down there and do whatever we could do to clear the place up because it was in a very rough state of course. It’s not like it —
[recording paused]
EW: Walk through the woods and even see the gas chambers which were in a more or less in a semi-derelict condition. Tumbled down. But you know the sort of shower rows? They were still there which were told, or they told people that they were going to get a shower and the shower went in and the gas actually went through them. But walking through the woods you never heard the birds singing or anything. There was uniform buttons and buckles off belts and that sort of thing.
[recording paused]
EW: You know, how? You know, why did they do this? And it was really even for a young man sort of eighteen, nineteen it was very depressing.
MS: Was that the age you were at the time?
EW: Yeah.
MS: So, this was just six years after the war ended.
EW: Well, I was nineteen at the time when I was at Belsen. Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
EW: We was there basically to do cleaning up. It was mainly fatigues which the regiment did periodically and had a church service there on a Sunday.
MS: You were in the Royal Artillery, I understand.
EW: Yeah.
[recording paused]
MS: You just told me a second ago about the, your smiling, the disposal of ammunition in Hartsholme Lake just outside Lincoln.
EW: Yeah.
MS: What happened there then?
EW: When they closed Hartsholme Lake down, Hartsholme, sorry Skellingthorpe Aerodrome down, all the ammunition, or a lot of the ammunition was dumped in Hartsholme Lake, at the north end of the island. And there must be a massive amount of scrap copper down there or brass.
MS: Yeah.
EW: Brass cartridges. If anybody dares, dare dredge it out but also the schoolkids at Skellingthorpe Road School we used to go down there and we used to persuade the man who was dealing with the ammunition to take the business end off the, off the cannon shells and give us the cordite strips that was inside. Once we got these we used to wrap them up very tightly in brown paper and bind them up with string and then stick a little bit of cordite in the end and light it and it used to run all over the school playground. And it was what we called scarlet runners. And we used to do this until the headmistress [laughs] headmistress found out where we was getting it from and all the rest of it and then it was very quickly stopped.
MS: Who actually taught you how to do it?
EW: I don’t know. I know who the main ring leader was. It was a chappie called Tony Patten. He could be [laughs] Tony Patten was in to everything but you didn’t get in to trouble during the war. You didn’t get in to trouble at all. You didn’t cause any problems. They’d got enough problems with Hitler. And the park keepers at Boultham Park, I’ve been chased by them. I’ve had my earhole warmed by them. And the police. It used to be the flat of the hand, you know and then they used to say, ‘Where do you live?’ You used to tell them where you lived and they used to go home, tell your dad. He used to stop your pocket money. And you used to get another good hiding. And I’m still here at fifty, at eighty five [laughs] none the worse for it.
MS: It’s not affected you at all has it?
EW: No. No [laughs] No. No, you didn’t. You just didn’t cause any trouble at all.
MS: What was the best thing you remember about the war years as a child?
[recording paused]
EW: Occasion. I can’t let this go. On Boultham Park Road there was a shop called Brancasters. It was a general store.
[recording paused]
EW: Information that they got some chocolate bars in there which was as scarce as rocking horse droppings of course.
[recording paused]
EW: Coupons so, which we produced them. He said, ‘Well, with the coupons you’ve got,’ he said, ‘I can let you have a Mars bar to share between you.’
[recording paused]
EW: Others, we used to go fishing.
[recording paused]
EW: And we used to make our own jam butties and take them down and we used to down on the Witham at the back of what is now Walker’s Crisps and we used to fish and that river was crystal clear. You didn’t need, the rods we made ourselves and all this sort of thing and we used to fish until we got fed up with it and then it used to be a case of take our clothes off and in the water. Anyway, one day I was fully dressed and I went home wet through and dad said, ‘What you have you been doing?’ I said ‘I fell in the river.’ He said, ‘You’re not going fishing again,’ he said, ‘Until you’ve learned to swim.’ So I was sent to learn to swim to a friend of his who was in the Yorkshireman Society with dad because he was in to that and he, on my first lesson he said, ‘You’re not going to take long to get going.’ So, he said, ‘You can swim.’ He said, ‘Where did you learn that?
[recording paused]
EW: I said, ‘I learned in the river with the others.’ [laughs] You know. And they were, they were really good times. We used to go down there with you know possibly a bottle of pop which was a glass bottle with a charge on the bottle which we used to take back and get the money. And we used to just while away the time fishing or swimming until the girls got to know.
MS: Ah.
EW: And they came, the girls used to come down from, you most probably knew them, I don’t know they used to come down from Russell Street and all the rest of it because they knew we were swimming in the nude like. So, we used to get in the water and we wouldn’t come out.
AW: Oh dear.
MS: Do you think they knew that as well?
AW: It’s a wonder they didn’t pinch your clothes.
EW: Well, I don’t know. I think we had, we had a good system all around really. But no, we used to make all our own amusement, you know. We, we used to go to football occasionally and it was a leather football with a blow-up bladder inside it.
MS: Yeah.
EW: And it had to be laced up and one of the masters at Sincil Bank School, that was Eric [Jobley] who, I think he was the science master there. I’m not sure.
[recording paused]
EW: We used to take it to him and he used to repair it and put it all back together and lace it up.
[recording paused]
EW: So, football. Cricket was a little bit different because you weren’t dependant —
[recording paused]
MS: You’re a Yorkshireman. You should be able to play cricket.
EW: Yeah. I know. Play on the, on the mining ground where they used to use a lump of coal as a ball.
MS: Makes you hard [laughs] I need to ask you now, if it’s alright about, you told us a little bit. You told us about Belsen. You were in the Royal Artillery. How long were you in the Royal Artillery for?
EW: Officially two years.
MS: Was it conscription?
[recording paused]
EW: Conscript, this was another story.
MS: Yeah. Go on.
EW: I don’t —
[recording paused]
EW: I went in —
[recording paused]
EW: There was quite a few of us. I mean I knew one or two of them that was with me at the time. We got kitted out which was —
[recording paused]
MS: They tell you you’ll grow into it.
EW: Yeah. That’s right. Anyway, the common gag is and you’ve got to have heard this before. The only thing that fit me was my tie.
MS: Yes.
EW: So, when we, when we got in to barracks at Oswestry we were saying, ‘Hey, this doesn’t fit me. Does it fit you?’ [laughs] and all this. Some people with trouser legs that short [laughs] Oh, it was crazy. It was. Anyway, we was shipped out, on from there to Tonfanau in Wales. And that was training. That was the start of training and I can always remember Sergeant Feint, Bombardier Routledge, and Lance Bombardier Spalding. They got us all altogether and they said, ‘We’ve got a job to do on you lads. We’ve got to smarten you up and get you trained up and you’ll not like what we’re going to do but you’ve got to put up with it. You’re now in the employment of the Queen.’ [laughs] What have you. And I shall never forget them as long as I live and they told us that. ‘You’ll not forget us three for the, you know for the rest of your life.’ And I didn’t. It suited me. Tonfanau. In fact, we went back didn’t we?
AW: We went on holiday, didn’t we?
EW: Yeah. And the camp’s not there. Its, it’s a shame really but it’s not there.
[recording paused]
EW: But it was, you know in the mountains and all the rest of it.
MS: Is it South Wales?
EW: Yeah.
MS: It’s lovely down there.
[recording paused]
EW: And [unclear] and all the rest of it and the firing range on there and all that so —
[recording paused]
EW: We’d finished training.
[recording paused]
EW: It was a competitive thing. There were three batteries. A, B and C and they used to do it as competitive. The one who gets, one who wins out of the three batteries there was a prize.
[recording paused]
EW: I got with a right set of, you know, I got with a right set of good lads. They really were and we won it. So, what’s the prize? ‘You’re going to get Christmas holiday. ‘So that’s alright. I had to go half way across Louth. Seventeen hours it took me across to get there. We got the travel warrants and all the rest. We’d one lad with us from Ireland. A chappie called McRory.
[recording paused]
EW: Kit with me. He said, even my rifle. He said, he said, ‘My brother’s been in the Irish Fusiliers,’ or whatever it was, ‘And said he’ll show me how to bull it all up and get it all done.’ And he said, ‘The only trouble is,’ he said, ‘My warrant’s going to take me as far as Liverpool.’ He said, ‘To get across to Ireland from there,’ he said. ‘I can’t afford it.’ So we had a whip around and he got his money to get him home.
[recording paused]
EW: Never came back.
MS: Rifle and all.
EW: No rifle. I always used to say it was the start of the IRA.
MS: Was it a Lee-Enfield?
EW: Yeah.
MS: They’ve got plenty of their own.
EW: But from there we went down to Woolwich on embarkation leave and we was in Woolwich for, I don’t know for about three weeks but we got eighteen day leave before that.
[recording paused]
EW: I was told I was going to the 12th light ack ack. You know, where all the small blokes went to the light. Big blokes went to the heavy ack ack. And we went to Trieste but fortunately I wasn’t there for very long. It was a mucky filthy place
MS: Trieste.
[recording paused]
EW: We had, one of the bad things about Trieste we had biscuit mattresses on the beds.
[recording paused]
EW: We had to throw them out the barrack window on to a trailer and if they were left there too long you could see the fleas jumping on. You know, it was grim. Anyway, we left. We left Trieste and we was on board ship and I’ve still got to look at the map and work out just exactly where we went —
[recording paused]
EW: For four days and then we went from —
[recording paused]
EW: I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed Wales mainly.
[recording paused]
EW: And I saw the monkeys at Gib.
[recording paused]
EW: Was on Malta. And we was at Malta for five weeks for a firing camp and the thing I —
[recording paused]
EW: All the rest of it and the one thing that I always remember was the open sewers.
[recording paused]
EW: The black flies. They didn’t bite you or anything like that but they were big.
[recording paused]
EW: Moved on. Being the youngsters in the regiment we moved on as the advance party to Germany and we went to Celle.
[recording paused]
EW: Extra training. We got our Christmas leave and when we got back to camp they said, ‘You’re behind with your training. You’ve had Christmas leave so we’re going to give you further, further training.’ And I didn’t know what this meant at the time. I don’t think the others knew what it meant so we had extra —
[recording paused]
EW: Weeks, I think, training which was very hard.
[recording paused]
EW: Anyway —
[recording paused]
EW: I was in Germany. They got a group of us together.
[recording paused]
EW: If you look at my Army records and you’ve got them in number there’s no mention of the five months I had in Korea.
MS: Is that right?
[recording paused]
EW: Records.
MS: And yet there’s nothing on it.
EW: Nothing on.
MS: That’s devious.
EW: Exactly. As I say there’s no record of that time. Just a straight two year National Serviceman. When I applied for my veteran’s badge and they said yes you were so and so —
[recording paused]
EW: For that five months we were paid as regulars which was alright for us. You know. We used to take, you know, very thankful. We’d nothing. Nothing to spend it on.
MS: No.
EW: So, I came out with eventually when I came out because it took us I would think nearly a month to get to Korea and it took us more or less the same period of time to get back and during that time my father didn’t know where I was. All my letters home, he used to write me a letter and chew me off for not writing but I used to write and the letters used to go to Germany and then from Germany they used to be posted on to Louth and they used to have BAOR 23 on them. But I wasn’t and the letters were vetted. We weren’t allowed to say where we were.
MS: Did you do any live firing in Korea?
[recording paused]
EW: Right. If you look at that eyebrow.
MS: Yeah.
EW: Right. It’s a lot thicker.
[recording paused]
MS: Eyebrow.
EW: Yeah. I was lucky wasn’t I?
MS: Yeah. Shrapnel?
EW: No.
MS: A bullet.
EW: A live round, that was. Yeah.
MS: Strewth. Were you married at the time?
EW: No. It was before I even knew Audrey.
MS: So, you should have been called Lucky, not Shorty [laughs]
EW: [laughs] No.
MS: That is lucky.
EW: But the lad who was stood next door, well he wasn’t stood, he was under camouflage next door but one to me like I was saying to him, ‘Whatever you do, when you’ve fired, move, because your muzzle flash —
MS: Yeah.
EW: Gives you away.’ Anyway, I said, ‘What’s up George?’ I said, ‘Have you heard me?’ You know.
[recording paused]
EW: Whether it was the same bullet or not I’d like to know.
MS: Did it fracture your skull or —
[recording paused]
EW: Well, the, the problem was we hadn’t a reliable wireless operator. We was forward, you know. Moving up and passing the info back.
MS: Yeah.
EW: And blood was running down, you know. Down in to my eye. I couldn’t see what I was doing with my right eye at all because of the blood in it. Right. And —
[recording paused]
EW: And got through. We could do with a bit of a system see. There was just eight of us up and I think this was something to do with the number. Eight. Six and we’d got one man injured and another man out of this world like. Anyway, they eventually —
[recording paused]
EW: I don’t think we would have got out of it. The worst issue I ever had in Korea was when I first got there. I was on guard one morning and the sergeant came out. He said, ‘Is there much happening?’ I said, ‘There’s some blokes up there on the ridge.’ And there was this one chap, he said, ‘Take him out.’
[recording paused]
EW: And I come to the conclusion, the same as a lot of the others you did what you was ordered to do. Not what you would have done by choice.
MS: Yes.
[recording paused]
EW: Done a bit of shooting before I went in the Army. I was with Louth Old Mill Small Bore Club and all they, every time I went on the range it was done competitively like.
MS: Yeah.
EW: We used to be firing and I used to be doing pretty good with that and then it was sort of a couple of bob in the kitty and the winner took it. Well, I knew how to rig, rig the sights, fiddle the sights and all the rest of it so —
MS: You knew what you were doing.
EW: I knew what I was doing. And the strange thing at the end of all this, when I got back home I’d been home about a fortnight and I’d gone back to my old job and one of the lads there was in the Small Bore Club the same as me and he said, ‘You haven’t been down yet.’ I said, ‘No. I’m coming down.’ Anyway, I said to my stepmother, I said, ‘I’m going down to the Old Mill tonight.’ ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘We’re not going to start with that again are we?’ She said, ‘We’re not going to start again with the police visiting to check your guns and check your gun covers and all the rest of it.’ I said, ‘No. We’re not.’
[recording paused]
EW: That’s what we’re about.
MS: Yeah.
EW: You’d got a job to do and you did it but, no.
MS: Didn’t rejoice in it.
EW: No.
MS: No.
[recording paused]
EW: It was nothing really looking back. I’m lucky to be here talking to you to be quite honest
MS: From that you are.
EW: Yeah.
MS: I’ll say. Yeah.
[recording paused]
EW: I’m not sure Audrey knows about it, do you?
AW: No. No. You’ve never said anything. I mean, it’s been quite enlightening.
[recording paused]
EW: Well, they, the thing, the thing about that you have remarks about it when I put the electric razor across my eyebrows.
MS: I could do with it on mine.
EW: I put that across. If I take too much off it does show. But no. No.
MS: Lucky man.
EW: Yeah. A lot luckier than —
[recording paused]
MS: Yeah.
EW: Now —
MS: Was he a close friend?
EW: He [pause] well, no. He wasn’t. He was, he’d got in as a National Serviceman. He was from Northampton and, you know you always get one and he was absolutely crazy that lad. He was —
MS: Comedian.
EW: Oh God, yeah. How rude can I be?
MS: As rude as you like. Close your ears ladies.
EW: Well, when we first went in, when we first got to a regiment one of the officers came in one day and he’d got us all in a lecture room and he was going around us all, ‘What did you do in Civvy Street?’ You see. Well, at that time I was in horticulture and that’s what I intended going back to.
[recording paused]
EW: He said, ‘What did you do?’ George Panther, they called him. He said, ‘What did you do?’ He said, ‘I made manhole covers, sir.’ So, he said, ‘Oh, you worked in the foundry did you?’ He said, ‘No. I wasn’t in the foundry.’ He said [laughs] ‘I worked in a ladies underwear factory cutting, cutting gussets out for ladies knickers.’ Now, you can imagine. You can imagine what that went down with the, with the other [laughs] other young lads. I shall never forget George for that.
MS: His card was marked.
EW: And no, he was, he was good fun to be all the, with all the time really, George was. Well, another one called Jeff [House] he was from Wiltshire. He was farming. And the camp where we were in Germany or the barracks where we were in Germany was an old German hospital and it had got very long corridors. And we used to be coming up from the cookhouse and Jeff used to be way down the corridor and I used to say to one of the lads, ‘Shout a number out.’ He used to shout a number out and I used to shout, ‘House.’ [laughs] He would turn around and say, ‘One of these days.’ There was such a lot of banter.
MS: Do you know, the guys you were working with in the regiment, I imagine a lot of them had service from the —
[recording paused]
MS: Did it make any difference to them? How they were?
EW: No. They with the sergeant that went out to Korea with us, he’d been through a lot of the campaigns during the war. They called him [Brogden] Irishman.
[recording paused]
EW: He would be telling you something and he would say, ‘Have you got it, lad? If you haven’t got it, get it. Got it?’
MS: That’s a catchphrase.
EW: But he was a super bloke to be with. You couldn’t have wanted to be with anybody else better than him.
[recording paused]
MS: Or tell us I should say.
EW: There will be something I remember. There’s been such a lot.
MS: Yeah. A long period of time. Anita, can you think of anything that needs covering that I’ve not covered?
[recording paused]
AS: The vehicles that you learned to—
EW: Oh, the vehicles.
AS: Operate in the, yeah.
EW: When I first got to Germany they said, ‘Have you —', ‘Can you drive?’ I said, ‘No.’ They said, ‘Do you want to learn to ride a motorbike?’ and I said, ‘Yeah, if you like.’ And then because I was doing a lot of cycling I thought I might as well. That is just one point there with you being RAF. And I was dispatch riding and like the other three mates I had who was all non-smokers. That’s something you might be interested in. I was asked to go to Oldenburg with a load of paperwork all in the pannier on the bike and all the rest of it and it was very bad weather and the German roads very much like that. Cobblestone. And there was snow on them. I had a very hairy ride to Oldenburg. And when I got to Oldenburg the chappie on sentry duty lifted the barrier and I got halfway underneath it and he let it go and it dropped across my shoulders.
MS: Oh.
EW: So, I got, got back to camp and I went in to see the MOT officer the following morning. I said, ‘I want to come off of bikes.’ And I told him why. And he said, ‘Good. You’re just the man I want.’ He said, ‘You’re on a driving course from Monday.’ Right. So it was jeep.
MS: Yeah.
EW: With the canvas top where you put it in four wheel drive and then got out of it and walked up the square and started [laughs]
MS: What was this? Oh, you actually brought it with you. You just kept it going.
EW: Yeah.
MS: Oh right. I see. So you walked next to the vehicle.
EW: Yeah. We just used to get it going and then get out of them and walk in front of it.
MS: Right.
EW: Did all sorts of crazy [laughs]. It was jeep, fifteen hundred weight, a three tonner, three tonner with a water carrier on the back which was about three or four hundred gallon, wasn’t it? GTB which was an ammunition carrier. And half track which was possibility one of the best vehicles I’ve ever driven.
MS: Did you drive those on the —
[recording paused]
EW: Pass on all of them. And you only had a week on each. And I had a little sergeant at the side of me. Sergeant Warren. And if your hands weren’t in the right place on the wheel the swagger cane came over.
MS: Ten to two.
EW: Yes. Oh yeah. I still do, don’t I?
MS: Its very safe.
EW: So, then we used to get, after we passed, I passed them all. Passed all of them. All the lot. And then we used to get manoeuvrability trials and it was down to Celle, RAF and they used to have all sorts of obstacles fitted up and we had to reverse these three tonners with trailers on, on the, you know with the water carriers.
MS: Yes.
EW: And every so often they used to pick on you at parade. Manoeuvrability trials this afternoon. We had to drive the, which were Morris trucks I think with forty millimetre bofors on the back. We had to drive them because we were all part of a detachment. And what it was when I was trained up as, trained up as a limber gunner there was two limber gunners between two gun detachments. So you had two guns to look after on the —
[recording paused]
EW: Yeah. So, the sad thing is I came out and I was given my pink slip to take and get my suit.
[recording paused]
EW: They wouldn’t accept it would they because I hadn’t taken it soon enough. I should have took it in straight away.
MS: After you’d driven in all the other stuff.
EW: Yeah. So, dad wasn’t very well at the time and I think he’d had his first heart attack.
[recording paused]
EW: At Louth quite a lot so I’d go there and come back again.
[recording paused]
EW: That little scooter. Well, it wasn’t little. It was an NSU 175.
[recording paused]
EW: I took my test on that and straight afterwards I bought a little car. A little Austin A30.
MS: Nice little car.
[recording paused]
MS: Is there something we should know?
EW: Well, it took her to Sheffield to see Louis Armstrong anyway, didn’t we? And I straight away put in for my test and my test came through and the lads at work were saying, ‘Who have you got?’ I said.
[recording paused]
EW: Oh God. You’ve got the Mad Major you have.
[recording paused]
EW: In fact, it was the Highway Code. It’s not like it is now which is a load of rubbish I think.
MS: I agree.
EW: And he said, ‘Have you driven? Have you been in the Services?’ I said, ‘Yeah. I’ve been in the Army.’ He said, ‘Have you driven?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘I thought so.’
[recording paused]
EW: ‘I’m going to pass you.’ He said, ‘And you’re the first person I’ve passed for thirteen weeks.
[recording paused]
MS: Done and dusted.
EW: Yeah.
MS: Yeah. Eric, we must stop now because we’ve got an appointment to go and look at a house.
[recording paused]
MS: In about an hour’s time. Yeah. I’ve got some paperwork to go through before we finish. Is that, ok?
[recording paused]
MS: We finish. Normally we thank you right at the end but I’ve actually enjoyed this conversation.
[recording paused]
MS: I haven’t had such a laugh for a while.
[recording paused]
EW: Well, it’s, it’s simple. The four lads, or the four of us were all non-smokers.
MS: Yeah.
EW: Right. And we got two hundred cigarettes a week ration.
MS: To sell.
EW: And we used to take them down Celle.
MS: Yeah.
EW: And we used to sell them to a delightful little Jew. A German Jew. And he really was, he was a super bloke.
MS: Yeah.
EW: He used to make a lot of money, we used to make a lot of money and it used to make the difference between civilian salaries and, and Army pay.
MS: So, it was obviously very healthy not to smoke.
[recording paused]
MS: What I’m saying —
EW: Dad used to enjoy it. I used to take him four hundred when I went on leave. ‘What did you pay for these?’ You know.
MS: I’m leaving the tape recorder on while I go through the last bits with you if you don’t mind. Yeah. A couple of things I need to check with you. First of all you’re happy with everything. It’s always the same. There’s always loads of paperwork. Right. First of all I’ve got to ask you a couple of questions. Do you confirm that you consented to take part in the interview?
EW: Yes.
MS: And are you happy to assign to the university all copyright in relation to this and in all and any media. And do you understand it won’t affect your own moral right to be identified as the performer in accordance with the relevant law?
EW: Yeah.
MS: Basically, it’s copyright.
EW: Yeah.
MS: Now are you happy? Do you agree that your name will be publicly associated with this interview but you understand that all personal details will be stored under strict confidential circumstances and will not be shared with —
[recording paused]
MS: Your name but nothing else.
EW: Yeah.
MS: Ok. Do you grant me permission to take a photo of you in a minute? A little portrait of you. You look lovely [laughs] What are you running out the room for?
AW: He’s got to put his make up on.
MS: I’m not there yet. I’m just saying [laughs] All right then.
AW: Don’t be long [laughs]
EW: I shan’t be long.
MS: Right. I am going to put the recorder off. Ok [laughs] Bear with me a second.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Eric Wright
Creator
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Michael Sheehan
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWrightE180422
Format
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01:00:30 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
British Army
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Doncaster
England--Sheffield
England--Rotherham
Germany
Germany--Bergen (Celle)--Belsen
Korea
Description
An account of the resource
Eric Wright in lived in Rotherham at the start of the war. As a school child he says that he did not really understand the implications of it. The family moved to Nottingham and he describes life there, with the air raids and sheltering under the Morrison table shelter in the living room. He recalls one air raid in which his house was damaged, and he had to be rescued but his friend on the other side of the street was killed. After a year they moved to Lincoln where his father became an air raid warden and fire watcher. One night in 1943 his father took him up to the roof of Lincoln Cathedral, from where he saw a German aircraft drop bombs on Lincoln before it was shot down. During an air raid on Sheffield, his mother was seriously injured and subsequently died. Being a child he was not allowed to go to the funeral. Later the family moved Doncaster. He explains that after the close of RAF Skellingthorpe, live ammunition was dumped in the lake at Hartsholme Park. He also describes how they managed to get cordite from cannon shells to make 'scarlet runners', a type of firework they let off in the school playground. After the war, Eric did his National Service with the Royal Artillery. After training in he was posted to a light anti-aircraft unit. During his service he was based in Germany where he helped to clear Belsen Concentration Camp. He became a driver using a variety of vehicles. He also served for five months in Korea, where he was injured.
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Contributor
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Julie Williams
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
Holocaust
home front
RAF Skellingthorpe
shelter
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rotherham [place]
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Rotherham
Description
An account of the resource
This page is an entry point for a place. Please use the links below to see all relevant documents available in the Archive.
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2643/45573/PThickettG2301.2.jpg
9c655dd890be586f99a323ae600eead0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2643/45573/AThickettG231110.1.mp3
bab327b539b2c9d3172e44774f389f61
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thickett, Gwendoline
Gwen Thickett
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Gwen Thickett (b. 1930). She grew up in Rotherham and recalls the bombing of Sheffield.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-11-10
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Thickett, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: So this is an interview for the IBCC Digital Archive. My name is Dan Ellin. I’m interviewing Gwendoline Thickett today. Also in the room is Mary Williams. It is the 10th of November 2023 and we’re in Washingborough. Gwendoline, thank you very much for allowing me in your home to have this conversation with you. Could, could you start by telling me a little bit about your very early life and where you were born and a bit about your childhood please.
GT: Right. Well, I was born at 272 Meadowbank Road, Kimberworth, Rotherham.
DE: Brothers and sisters?
GT: A brother. He went to Australia after the war. After he’d done his service.
DE: Ok.
GT: But he’s died out there but we did go out to see him. My husband and I.
DE: Yeah. What did he, what was, what did he do in war?
GT: He was a soldier. He went abroad. I can’t think of —
DE: It doesn’t matter at all. So tell me a bit about, about your childhood. What was it like growing up in Rotherham?
GT: Rotherham. Yes. I had a very, I was in a very happy home. Place. You know, my mum and dad were wonderful. Yes. And for the time did everything. I started this for the children but [pause] the evolution of washing day.
DE: Ok.
GT: And mending shoes. My father always mended the shoes.
DE: What did your father do for a living? What was his job?
GT: Now, he was at Robert Jenkins who made boilers for ships.
DE: Right.
GT: So he couldn’t go in the forces. He wanted to. He wanted to go in the, to be a sailor but no he was in a Reserved Occupation. My childhood. [pause] I really don’t know what to tell you.
DE: Well, where did you go to school?
GT: At Meadowhall. Meadowhall School. Kimberworth Infant School. Then the middle school was Meadowhall School. Then it was at Kimberworth Senior School. And that’s where, I was there when the war started.
DE: Ok. What, what can you remember about that?
GT: Having the, the playing field that was attached to the, at the school. They dug it up to do, to do shelters and we had to practice going in the shelters. You know, a certain way by the walls and yes. We didn’t have a a place. We had a playground but we didn’t have the field.
DE: Right. Ok. Because it was had been turned into shelters. Did you have, did you have a shelter at home as well?
GT: Yes. Now, that’s a story. My father was at Robert Jenkins who made boilers for ships and he bought from the firm a round tank and he dug into the, into the back garden which had a steep incline and he dug and put this boiler in. And that was our shelter. Now at first there was problems because digging into the ground it used to seep water and so he dug a sump in. And every day when Russell and I came home from school our job was to ladle the water out of this sump. And then he’d put an escape hatch because it was built into the back rockery and he made an escape hatch. You know, because we didn’t know what was going to happen.
DE: Sure.
GT: Then this covered apart from this escape this hatch it was covered in in gardening.
DE: Yeah.
GT: And we had chickens. Russell went to the market and bought three little chickens and that started for the whole of the war we had hens and chickens and black [Menorca] rabbits for food.
DE: Right. Yeah.
GT: And mum was a gardener.
DE: Ok.
GT: So we, we were really well off.
DE: Yeah.
GT: In that way. Not, not monetarily but we were alright.
DE: So as well as the rationing you had chickens and eggs and rabbit meat as well. Yeah.
GT: Yes.
DE: How, how did it feel if, you know because these animals would sometimes be pets.
GT: Yes. Well, that was a problem and dad used to get up sometime during the weekend and kill a hen but he hated killing rabbits. He hated it. But we had to do it.
DE: Yeah.
GT: For food. So my mum and dad were providers.
DE: Yes. Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
DE: So what was it like inside the, inside the shelter that your dad built?
GT: It was just round. The only disadvantage was condensation and when the Blitz came to Sheffield and Rotherham was included do you know Steel, Peech and Tozers? The big steel works.
DE: No. I don’t. but I can look it up.
GT: You can look.
DE: Yeah.
GT: Yes. Well what I was saying?
DE: The Blitz and the steelworks.
GT: Oh yes. With dad not going in the forces he had to be an ARP warden and they built, there were brick shelters for people who were travelling and that. Every so often you’d see a brick shelter and the ARP warden operated from there and so he had to work nights. That was the big disadvantage of him working and [pause] oh he what I was going to say? I was going to say something. I’m getting old.
DE: It was about your father being an ARP warden and working nights.
Yes. So he wasn’t at home when we were going in the shelters at night.
DE: Oh, I see.
GT: Because we at one period we were going in the shelters at 6 o’clock at night or a bit later and it was a routine thing. I had to take the medical case in and we all, we had we each had a coat of mum’s to keep us warm and we’d go in the shelter but when the Blitz came in the Sheffield area —
DE: Yeah.
GT: We had a neighbour come in because most of the men were in the steelworks and so one of our neighbours had a baby and she was quite nervous. So we made room for her in our shelter. And it was a routine. We had to get in to a routine of going because sometimes we used to go at 6 o’clock at night and we’d be there until about twelve. But before the Sheffield Blitz we used to see hundreds of aeroplanes going over at once. You know about that and, but and different places you know were targeted.
DE: Yeah.
GT: At nights. And when we were targeted it happened on my dad’s birthday, the 2nd of December and it was horrendous. My brother could hear the shrapnel outside and wanted to go out and fetch it [laughs] but of course mum wouldn’t let him. And what else can I tell you?
DE: So what was it like on that night of the Blitz?
GT: Terrible. I was very nervous. Well, everybody was nervous. We were living on a knife edge at that time.
MW: The ceiling [pause] the ceiling.
GT: Oh yes. Our house wasn’t bombed.
DE: Right.
GT: But the ceiling. I’ve written that out in here. I think I can, if I can read a bit.
DE: Yeah. Of course.
GT: Yeah. When the all clear sounded eventually dad came from the ARP post to see if we were alright. He went in the house to see the damage. Mum wanted to go. He came to tell us to stay where we were and he went in the house, got the hoover out and hoovered all the soot up from the fire because we had coal fires.
DE: Yeah.
GT: There was two big holes in the ceiling in the front bedroom and my bedroom and mum put Lincrusta, not, not at that time but because of the Corporation people because it was a Corporation house they’d got no men to come to mend. It was, I can’t remember how long but it was a long time before they came and mum put layers of Lincrusta wallpaper to cover the holes. And the tiles on the outside of the roof just all concertinaed and you see it was going into winter so it was [pause] Mum and dad had to use all their ingenuity.
DE: Yeah, to try and keep the place warm and dry. Yes.
GT: Yes. Yes. There were two big holes in them. My dad with him being an ARP warden because with him not going in the forces all the men had to go in the ARP.
DE: Yeah.
GT: Or the Home Guard, you know. And he went around the houses above us mending doors because their doors, their outside doors when they were in the shelters. Somehow, I don’t know why but he went around doing doors. On the Sunday he went to Sheffield to see a friend that they had. He walked to Sheffield to see a friend to see if she was alright. It happened that she was. And Sheffield was devastated. It was ablaze. There was three days, three nights of Blitz and it just took everything. And of course, Steel, Peech and Tozers was the big firm in that area. But there was also old works. Our house looked over. It was called Meadowbank Road and the River Don was at the bottom and then it was all the electric works and and everything. But that’s how it was.
DE: Yeah.
GT: In those days.
DE: So after a night of being an ARP warden and you being in the shelter and I guess not able to sleep then then it was back to work in the steelworks for your dad and back to school for you was it?
GT: Yes. Yes. As far as I remember we didn’t stay off school. I think probably mothers were probably glad to be able to clear up and that.
DE: Yeah.
GT: And of course, we all started gardening at school. There was a patch that we had for growing vegetables. [unclear] Now what can I tell you?
DE: There was never any talk of you being evacuated then.
GT: Oh yes but with dad having his management job we weren’t on the list. But poorer people were you know. There were quite a lot. And there were movements at one time [pause] They came. Eventually I got married and Mum Thicket had eight children of her own and there was a big park at their end of the, of Rotherham and it was full of American soldiers that they’d put there which caused a bit of trouble [laughs] But, but on D-Day, after D-Day our soldiers went to Clifton Park as well. Now they were in a frightful state. They brought them up by train the ones that were still alive and this [pause] they were in a dreadful state and even Mum Thicket with her eight children took two soldiers in.
DE: Right.
GT: Because they asked people around to take two, and she took two soldiers in. I mean she told me this afterwards and they were in a dreadful state. But odd things happened at that period.
DE: Yeah.
GT: I think with them being so tragic those are the ones that have stuck in my mind all the time.
DE: Yeah.
GT: It was a dreadful time.
DE: Was this, was this after D Day or was this after Dunkirk?
GT: I can’t tell you that.
DE: It doesn’t matter. It doesn't matter. So, what, what was it like having lots of Americans in the, in the area then?
GT: A problem.
DE: Go on. You have to say more than that.
GT: A problem and some girls got into trouble you know.
DE: Right. Ok.
GT: And yes, but two that I know I knew then eventually married American soldiers. My cousin, she married an American but it didn’t work out when it was after the war and you know things went wrong so she had to come home. But it was a trying time.
DE: Right. Yeah.
GT: For mums.
DE: Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine.
GT: Yeah. But they brought nylon stockings and that’s when we had nylon. You know there’s always a bright spot somewhere [laughs] And because we hadn’t had nylon at all and, and of course parachute silk was prized if you could get hold of a bit of parachute silk. Yeah. But what else can I tell you?
[pause]
GT: The bombing on the three nights of the Blitz was terrible but there were towns worse. You know. There was Coventry and all over.
DE: So I guess towards the end of the war you would be what? Fourteen? Fifteen? Did you leave school or did you stay on?
GT: Oh no. I left at fourteen.
DE: So what —
GT: Yeah.
DE: What did you do then?
GT: Office work. Eventually I learned shorthand and I was a secretary but it seems when I think about it now and look at my own great grand daughter it’s at the time when I started school. At fourteen. Yeah. We, we did go. It must have been in the early part of the war we did go on holiday.
DE: Ok.
GT: To Bridlington. That was our favourite place so we continued to go. Take our rations with us you know because it was just boarding house accommodation and I always remember something that stuck, has always stuck is that we went by train and my mum gave an elderly couple a packet of tea. And I remember this because of the rations and they were so grateful. But my mum and dad were providers and they’d just before the war started I didn’t know of course Russell and I didn’t know but mum and dad had started buying things like tea and you know all the essentials. Even a box of Cadbury’s milk chocolate fingers.
DE: Wow.
GT: And we used to have a half a finger each when we went to school.
DE: Wow. Ok.
GT: It’s funny the things that you remember.
DE: Yeah.
GT: But no, they were providers and my dad apparently I learned afterwards from mum had said, ‘You know, we’ve got to prepare for everything.’ And when the, before the Blitz of course the planes used to come over every night and because I was a bit nervous mum used to let me stay up. Russell went to his bed but she used to let me stay up and we’d do jigsaw puzzles. I think it was just to keep calm.
DE: Keep your mind occupied. Yes.
GT: And so it was a dreadful time because it was every night there were, these planes were going over every night.
DE: So you spent, you spent a lot of nights in the shelter even if they weren’t dropping bombs. Just to be safe.
GT: Oh yeah. Well, when the sirens went we were supposed to go and we always went in the shelters.
DE: Yeah.
GT: And our neighbour, her husband of course was in a war job so she was on her own with a baby. They’d got a shelter but of course she was a bit nervous so mum invited her into our shelter.
DE: So there was enough. There was enough room for your mum and you and your brother and the next door neighbour and a baby then.
GT: Yes.
DE: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. And what —
GT: And I was getting up, given a torch a little torch to read because I was a bit nervous. Russell went to sleep almost straight away but I was a bit nervous so mum used to let me read.
DE: Yeah.
GT: And I read, “The Three Musketeers.” I remember that. It was a nervous time for everybody and you helped where you could. I’m sure there’s loads I could tell you but I can’t just bring them to mind.
DE: No. That’s, that’s fine.
GT: Have you something.
MW: Perhaps you should tell him how you found out that war was declared initially.
GT: What?
MW: Tell him how you found out that war was declared in church.
GT: Oh yes.
MW: Yeah.
GT: Everyone knew that things were going awry but the war was declared on what not. What?
DE: The 3rd of September it was.
GT: Yes.
DE: Yeah.
GT: And we were in church, in Sunday School and the church warden walked down to the vicar which was very unusual because things were formal in those days. It’s not like now. And the vicar announced that war had been declared. So prayers were said and then we all went home and I went to my grandparents who were astounded that I’d got, that I went every Sunday you see and I was only a child and they packed me off home straightaway. And I remember running all the way home and my mum was waiting at the front gate when I got home, you know. That’s how it started.
DE: That’s really interesting because most people tell the story that they heard it on the wireless.
GT: Oh, yes.
DE: Yeah.
GT: Well, we knew it was coming but it was actually declared on Sunday and we were in church.
DE: Yeah.
GT: As normal.
DE: Did you listen to the radio much?
GT: Oh yes.
DE: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. We had Rediffusion. It was just a box and we paid like something like a shilling and nine pence a week for radio. I can’t just remember.
DE: No. It doesn’t matter. No.
GT: No. We listened to the wireless all the time. Yes.
DE: Yeah.
GT: Yes. [pause] I’m trying to think of interesting things.
DE: What about other entertainment? Did you go to the cinema?
GT: No.
DE: No.
GT: Very rarely in my day. Occasionally. It was a, it would be on mum’s birthday or something like that.
DE: Oh, I see.
GT: Yes. But the news reels there was always a news reel and as the war went on of course that’s how we found things out. So [pause] very different times to now. It was a long time ago.
DE: Oh, it is. Yeah. So yeah. I’m just looking at my notes. I think I’ve asked you everything that I had, had planned. It’s if you have any other stories or or if you’ve got any other prompts.
MW: [unclear]
DE: I’ll just pause for a second.
GT: Yeah.
DE: Ok.
[recording paused]
GT: We all went, had to go to up to school with our mums to have our gas masks which was, you know.
DE: Yeah.
GT: Quite an event. And you know that we had a little square box.
DE: Yeah.
GT: With a gas mask in. And then of course they were our fashion. But I hated the gas mask. And then after about two or three years we all had to take our gas masks back and have an extra thing put on.
DE: Oh ok.
GT: For mustard gas or something like that.
DE: But you never had to use them.
GT: No.
DE: No.
GT: Not [pause] we didn’t use them. Only to keep school you know. We had to practice.
DE: Yeah. Yeah. Why didn’t you like them?
GT: Well, just didn’t like them. But some children played in them.
DE: Right.
GT: Their mothers let them play with them.
DE: That must have been a sight. Seeing little children running around wearing those.
GT: Yes [laughs]
MW: And there was a time when you looked out of the school window to see Uncle Russell wasn’t there? What was he doing?
GT: What love?
MW: That time you looked out of the window at school and saw Uncle Russell. What was he doing? Cutting down the —
GT: Oh yes. My brother was a bit, three years older than me and he was apprenticed to a joiner. But in the war they had to do whatever the Corporation wanted doing. And I remember being in school and at playtime going out and seeing my brother and he was cutting down the railings around the perimeters and I used to go and while he was cutting them down I used to go and talk to him. Yeah. There’s all little things like that you know. And of course he went in the Army and went out to where did he go? I’ve forgotten. But my husband I met him and married on his demob leave.
DE: Oh right. Ok.
GT: Yes. He’s there. And eventually we went out and saw Russell and his wife because they went off. You could go to Australia for ten pound.
DE: That’s right. Yes. I’ve heard about that.
GT: Yeah.
DE: Yeah. So that’s what your brother did was it?
GT: Yes.
DE: Wow.
GT: Eventually Stanley and I went out to see them. We sailed out.
DE: That must have been an adventure.
GT: Oh yes. Nearly everything was an adventure because we, you know we were just an ordinary family.
DE: So how did you meet your husband then?
GT: Dancing.
DE: Ok.
GT: And he was on his demob leave.
DE: Right.
GT: And I met him at a dance class because I used to go to a ballroom dancing class and he came with his friend because his mum had told him to go out on his demob leave. I’ve forgotten how long that was. On his demob leave they were just going out to the pictures and they cycled. He and Ron cycled all over the country just to, just to keep going. But he went back to the firm. Yes. He’d been working just before he went in the forces and the firm took him back. Eventually he moved from there and went to the Halifax Building Society. But he, can you remember anything else, Mary?
MW: Not really. No.
DE: So what’s so you met you met him at a dance. What sort of dancing was it?
GT: Ballroom dancing.
DE: Ballroom dancing.
GT: That was the thing to do. That was the thing to do. I’d been ballroom dancing because my mum thought I wasn’t going out enough. So she encouraged me to go to Harry Buchanan’s dancing. It was a thing to do then.
DE: Ok. Yeah.
GT: It was ballroom dancing. And so Stanley and I used to go to the class on a Thursday night and go to the [Baths] Hall. They covered the swimming pool in Rotherham. We had a lovely swimming pool in Rotherham and they covered it in the winter and made it into a ballroom.
DE: I see. Ok.
GT: We went. We went dancing on Saturday nights after going to see Rotherham United Football. He introduced me to football [laughs] and that was just the life we led. We used to walk home so it would take us longer. I shall think of all kinds of things when you’ve gone.
DE: That’s what always happens. I can pause it again.
[recording paused]
DE: Yeah.
GT: We all had an identity card. I think there’s one around somewhere. But rationing was, food was very bad. Getting hold of food. And the, you just had your rations and mothers made a spread.
DE: What about coal? Was that rationed as well?
GT: I think it was because we had coalmen, you know come with lorries. Bags of coal. In those days. Yeah. Yes, I think it was. There would be some kind of restrict.
DE: Yeah. But you had, you said your family you dug out the garden and planted things.
GT: Oh yes.
DE: What did you grow? What was, what was the, “Dig for Victory.”
GT: Vegetables. All vegetables. But if we hadn’t you know it would have been awful not supplementing the [pause] We, you know about ration books? Yes.
DE: Yeah.
GT: Food was a big problem.
DE: Were you, were you hungry very often then?
GT: No. I can’t say I was because mum was very into it if you know. She, she made things that you’d just, just to keep hunger at bay.
DE: Yeah.
GT: No. No. I had a very nice home with my mum and dad and they were providers and so anything. Dad used to come home with a chicken. But I’m not sure it was [laughs] you know. He’d got it from a friend.
DE: Say no more. Ok. Yes.
GT: Yes.
DE: Yeah.
GT: There was quite a lot of that around.
DE: Yeah. Ok.
GT: But it kept us going.
DE: Yeah.
GT: And of course, we had our own chickens and rabbits. Yeah.
DE: Ok. I’ll press pause again.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gwendoline Thickett
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-11-10
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:45:38 Audio Recording
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending review
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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AThickettG231110, PThickettG2301
Description
An account of the resource
Gwendoline Thickett grew up in Rotherham and was a young girl at school when the Second World War began. She was in Sunday School at her local church when the news of the declaration of war was announced. Her parents had already begun to prepare for possible eventualities by storing essentials in readiness. Gwendoline’s brother was an apprentice joiner until he joined the Army. She recalls her father building a shelter from a water tank, the bombing of Sheffield and the American soldiers who came to the area.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1944
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Sheffield
England--Rotherham
Coverage
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Civilian
Contributor
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Julie Williams
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front