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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/127/11/ATurnerB150602.2.mp3
1c6080ee78c66828fc79e2847ce7791d
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Title
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Turner, Betty
B Turner
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Description
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Four items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Betty Turner, (– 2015, 2146029), a photograph and two poems. Leading aircraftswoman Betty Turner served in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force at 92 Group Headquarters as a wireless operator. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Betty Turner and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2015-06-02
Identifier
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Turner, B
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Other persons present: Betty Turner’s daughter, Shelley Marshall [SM]
HH: Ok. Here we are, my name is Heather Hughes, and I’m sitting with Betty Turner who was in the WAAFs during World War 2, in Betty’s home in Bierton and it is Tue, Wednesday? , Tuesday, Tuesday the 2nd of June, 2015. Thank you Betty, so much, for agreeing to do this interview today.
BT: You’re very [emphasis] welcome indeed.
HH: Betty I wonder if we could start by talking about where you were born and grew up?
BT: I was born in Aylesbury, I went to school in Aylesbury, and [pause], I went from here and signed up when the war was on - well, at first, of course, I was working at, um, a very – when I was fourteen we had to leave school in those days at fourteen, and I had a job in a very exclusive shoe shop. I always loved that shop, I was bound and determined I was going to get a job there, and I did, and –
HH: Do you remember the name of the shoe shop?
BT: Yes! It was Ivords [?] and we had customers like the Dimbleby boys, their father was away in the war of course when they would come in, and there would be the sister and the two brothers, and mom would come in with them, and I would wait on them for shoes, not realising how famous they [emphasis] were going to be. Anyway, that was my – and then, I decided – I had a boyfriend, who was shot down, over France, and killed, and the very next day I said I’m joining the, the WAAF. I was seventeen at the time, and, so my mother said ‘alright, I’ll take you to join up’ to High Wycombe – we had to go to High Wycombe – and my brother at the same time wanted to come with us, and he said ‘I’m going to join up too’, but he was only fifteen. Anyway [pause, deep breath] I joined up, and this was in December, December 6th I always remember – the date of the, that Caley was shot down – and I, um, went to Wycombe as I say, the next day, and that was about the 7th of December that I actually went to give my signature –
HH: Was that in nineteen - ?
BT: Forty-two.
HH: Forty-two.
BT: Forty-two. But I wasn’t called until January – first week, I believe, but it was January anyway when I actually went, and I left here, and went to [pause] Gloucester. I think it was Gloucester.
HH: And is that where you went for training?
BT: Ye – well… Yes, to sort you out I think in Gloucester, your uniforms, and what you ought to be and things like that you know. I said driver please [?] [laughs] and they killed themselves laughing, I’m only five foot, I wouldn’t reach the pedals on the trucks at all [laughs]. But I think everybody asked to be a driver when they first joined up. Anyway, at that point we went to Morecombe for square-bashing, and when we came back – I think it was Innsworth, I’m not sure, you know, the memory fades a bit doesn’t it? But there [emphasis] they gave us some, sort of, tests [emphasis] about different things and they needed wireless operators apparently, and everybody had to sit around with a paper and pencil, and they would give you, er, records – they would play a record, and they’d say ‘now you’re going to hear some dots and dashes. All I want you to do is to tell me whether they’re the same each time or different’, and so the record would start and we would have to say write it all down, and I apparently did fine, and they thought immediately well ‘she’s ok she could be a wireless operator’, and after I had done my square bashing – that was first – they read that I was coming to Winslow in Buckinghamshire, and I thought ‘ooh dear’ - I wanted to go somewhere exciting [laughs]. But I, there you go, I came home – quite close to home anyway, only ten miles actually away. It was okay, I had the best of both worlds really didn’t I? They said ‘you’re going to 92 Group Headquarters – Bomber Command’. So, I, that’s what I did! I came over to Winslow, and there didn’t seem to be a lot of RAF around but it was because everybody was on shift work, and the hours would be – I can’t remember all the hours but it’s in that, um, brochure I gave you, from like eight o’clock in the morning ‘til midnight, long hours it seemed. Some were shorter hours and then we would have a couple of days off.
HH: And what did you do with your days off?
BT: I’d come home. And my father would, usually, ask me if I was alright, and did I need any money, and sometimes leave me ten bobs [laughs], ten bob, at the side of my bed, and I’d wake up in the morning and I’d say ‘whoopee I’ve got some money!’ [laughs]. We never had any money, and we always seemed hungry. We were always ready to go into a restaurant and eat if we could find a place to do it, you know, because restaurants, things weren’t easy in the restaurants at that time. Anyway so that was fine. The work was just really [emphasis] quite boring, because that’s all you did was put your earphones on and you had a key, and you had, um, you had receiving and you had sending of Morse code constantly, and it was [emphasis] pretty boring.
HH: But very vital.
BT: But vital, I suppose – well I found that out later, but I didn’t know what I did, and it was just different, really. In the morning we would check with the, all the stations that we had, and they’re on their paper – I can’t remember the names of them all – but the different stations that were in that 92 Group then they would send Morse back to us and you know we would answer backwards and forwards. Not plain language, most of the time, it was certain, certain codes that we would send to them. Every half an hour we would have to send a very very powerful signal – I can still remember it today it was V3A – and then we would give them the time, and we’d go ‘dee dee, dee dee’ [making Morse code sounds] until the second hand went onto the twelve we would hit the key, down, and um, apparently it was for other aircraft and everybody to get their time right, you know, er, it was a very powerful signal and it could be heard many many thousands of miles away, but we never knew why we were doing it. We never asked questions. We signed the secrets thing and we never spoke about what we did. My dad asked me about what we did and ‘oh I just Morse code, you know’, but nobody knew. We didn’t know why we were doing it. And then another time we would fill pages of five letter groups, and five letter groups, and we had a pad, you know, a pad of paper that size and it was asking you questions on – you wrote down what you could hear in five letter groups, and then when your pad was full, you’d take all of the girls’, if they had them you’d collect them up and take them into the main room of the house, because we were in like a, like a Nissen type hut part that had been built on the front of the house, so that it was separate. But in the house we would go for other things like we would get - have our pay parade ever Friday, second Friday morning, and ‘quote your last three letters’ and ‘come to attention’ and they’d pay you, which was very nice, on every other week that would happen and um, that was in the house – we’d go in the house for that, and there was also a lot of RAF personnel in the house but we never actually saw the room that they were in, and outside, at night especially, we’d notice a motorbike – a guy with a motorbike, and we assumed that he must be doing something with what we were taking over to the house – we didn’t know of course. And it wasn’t until I went to Bletchley Park, many years later, and I could hear the Morse code going, and after looking at all the things and listening to the people that were leading us around, what we did, and I’m thinking ‘gosh! I remember that’ and ‘I remember this’, and ‘I remember that’, and it dawned on me what we were doing. But it was years afterwards, prior to that I had no knowledge of what we did, at all. Yeah there was a um – but when we were on, um, hours off, of course, that was very nice, we’d also have dances, at camp, we – the girls, were in the stables of the big house –
HH: Was it kind of dormitory type accommodation?
BT: No, it was, strictly – you know what stables look like, with horses in them? Well, we were in those same things but we weren’t horses [laughing]. We had potbelly stoves to keep us warm, you know [laughing], and it had a gutter where the horses used to do their business and it would run down into the drain, but that was cleaned out [laughing] before we went in there. Oh dear, yes, and at times it would be very draughty.
HH: So did you each have your own stable then?
BT: Well, no, there were two of us in the one stable. Oh well, yes, two of us in each stable – pretty sure it was only two of us, yeah I think it was two, but of course, in the long building itself, there would be lots of, lots of stables. Eventually after I had been there about a – two years, I finally got to go in the house, but I’m sure that was servants’ quarters for the girls - some of the girls would go in there, and then any new girls coming along would go in the stables I suppose. Although, when war ended, when VE Day came along, it was very quickly destroyed, our cabin. Everything [emphasis] was destroyed very very quickly. And there was no more Morse code – nothing – it just stopped, and we were all posted to other places. Then [emphasis] I really enjoyed the work [laughs], I was posted to a place called Great Massingham – that’s up near the Wash, we decided, I’ve seen it on the map yes, up near the Wash – and it was, I was put in the Officers’ Mess, in the corner, with a telephone and a desk, and the calls would come in for the boys from their girlfriends or their wives, and I’d be the one to call out their name and say ‘you are wanted on the telephone’, and it was super [emphasis]. And in the morning, instead of going to the cook house like we used to do at Winslow, I would go and I would have a nice fried breakfast, the same as the officers would have. I’d have mine first though before I went on duty, then later on of course they would all come in and have their breakfast, it was very nice. That was a super job! And I actually saw the planes for a change, because we saw no planes on our camp at all, except the Wellingtons at, at um [pause] what is the – not Wing, not Wing, where - oh I can’t think of the name of the – but we used to have to go onto that field aerodrome when we were doing our experience flights which we didn’t enjoy very much really –
HH: What did that involve?
BT: It involved flying around with a pilot, and I think we were supposed to work the set I’m not quite sure [laughing] I can’t remember. It was to find out how difficult it is to keep on frequency so they wanted us to experience, you know, what it was like to fly – I only went up a couple of times though [pause] but it was – I would not volunteer to go. I did not [emphasis] enjoy it. Sometimes the pilots used to make fun of us, be heading for a barrage balloon and say ‘oh I don’t think I’m going to tell her’ [laughing]. They would tease us, in other words, they would tease us, and it wasn’t very nice really. But we did have fun when we were all off duty. We put on pantomime, well we put on one, and then there was a play. But unfortunately, just before I got to Winslow, there had been a Wellington come down and go into one of the houses and kill several people, and one of our sergeants managed to get some people out, and he got fairly [pause] badly burnt in a couple of places, and he got recommended for that. He really was quite a hero to the rest of them, they were all saying ‘what a great job you did’. But it was all over with when I got there – the rubble was there of course, they were cleaning up, but it was quite scary, really scary. [Pause] Our - we would try and get to work, or go down to – we would have bicycles a lot of us. I took my own bike to camp so that I could cycle home if I wanted to, although I preferred to take the bus – was easier.
HH: But did you use your bicycle around the camp?
BT: Yes. No, no we couldn’t cycle around our camp, we were at a big house, and all we had was a big driveway.
HH: Okay so you didn’t need to.
BT: We had… huts, the stables where we slept, and we had to come out and go to the bathrooms and bath huts and stuff there and then another hut was for our meals. Our canteen was at the other place, because we used to have to cycle through the village back to where we worked. The men were lucky, they were able to have lodgings and they had a landlady that would fix them meals and they would have lovely hot dinners when they got home at night and we had to go to the cook house. We had a cook house. But at the end of the war things began to happen a bit more – towards to end of the war, when the prisoners of war from Germany were coming back home we were, they, we were asked to go and volunteer to welcome the prisoners coming back, which was rather good.
HH: And where was that?
BT: That was at Wing I believe – I’m sure it was Wing although no place ever had a sign on it so we never knew where we were really. I think, from what I could work out, that it was Wing, and they were [pause] quite, quite a sad looking lot coming home but so thrilled to be coming home. And I always remember this one boy asked our girl that was our telephonist – one of our telephonist girls – if, um, he would call – if she would call his mother on this number and he gave her, and she said ‘yes I’ll do that for you’, so, when we got back to camp, she was doing some work there, and she phoned this number, and it was the mother that answered the phone, and she said ‘John would be seeing you in a couple of days’, and it was just the noise and um, a man came on then, and this man said ‘who is this?’ and she said ‘well I’m LACW’ so-and-so, what her name was, ‘I’m just telling you that your son will be home in a couple of days, probably, they have to go to a, a centre first for certain things’ - he said ‘well I hope you know what you’re talking about, because we’ve already been told that our son is missing, believed dead – believe killed’, and he was – well, we all cried. I think about it now and I cry a little bit. Yeah, so, um -
HH: That’s one story that at least had that happy ending.
BT: Yes, I know – I won a book once for writing that story out because I said I’ll never forget it. I said a lot of things I do forget, and a lot of things I think I imagine, ‘oh I couldn’t have done that, surely I couldn’t have done that’ sort of thing, ‘I wouldn’t tell anybody that I’m not going to say’ – and, but, I know that was true, because it, it caused such a – the rest of us in, at the cook house – we were all sitting around the table then when she was telling us about it, and we were all [emphasis] practically in tears. But I wonder how many times that happened, you know, I’m sure it must have happened lots of times, I’ve heard of it since actually happening. On this, “Next Generation”, or that “Last Generation”, the programmes that they’ve had – I’ve loved that series I’ve been watching it and I think ‘good on you!’ [laughs] you know, and they’re still going strong, it’s lovely.
HH: Betty what rank did you attain -
BT: LACW
HH: - in the WAAFs?
BT: Leading Aircraftwoman. So I started off as an AC2 and then an AC1, and then an LACW. Yeah. But um, I don’t know that I deserved it – maybe I did [laughs]
HH: I’m sure you did.
BT: I don’t know. I have my pay book still, and it said I was a keen and willing wireless operator, ‘very efficient’ it says [laughter] so –
HH: Well done.
BT: But it wasn’t any good trying to get a job after the war because [laughs] nobody wanted a wireless operator [laughs], a wireless operator.
HH: It would be good to talk about after the war. I just want to go back and ask you what kind of, what kind of [pause] relationships did you have with other WAAFs? I mean did you form quite a strong bond together?
BT: Oh we did yes, um, and it we were going on leave, one or two of us would go together. In fact, when I went on leave with my friend, she said to me, ‘where shall we go for our leave? When’s yours coming up?’, I said ‘mine is coming up on so-and-so’ – ‘so is mine’ she said, ‘let’s go a long way away’, because we would have a free travel warrant, so, I said ‘ok, well where will we go?’, she said ‘let’s go to Edinburgh’, I said ‘that’s a good idea, let’s go to Edinburgh, and we got on the train, and we had a wonderful journey. It was all the forces in the train, and she was a comedian anyway, and she had the place in stiches, it was hilarious [laughs] that whole trip was funny. And we went to the YMCA, YWCA I should say, and booked in, and we put our money in their safe, as they have, and when you go out you just take a certain amount of money with you. This parti – the f – second night I believe we were there, we decided to go to the Cavendish Ballroom, we were going to go to a dance, okay, so we bought our tickets to go in but when we got inside we realised we hadn’t taken enough – to buy our tea, that, or drink or whatever we wanted, and I said well it’s not far from where we’re, you know where we’re staying, ‘I’ll get the trolley, car’ or whatever it was at that time, and ‘I’ll go back and I’ll get us some more money’. ‘Okay’ says my friend, and when I got back to the Cavendish ballroom, there she was, sitting with a couple of Americans. And I said ‘oh, hi’, she said ‘this is so-and-so and this is so-and-so – I told him you like to dance because he likes to dance too’ [laughs], so I said ‘oh alright, I’ll dance with him’, and we not only danced with them, we spent, um, our days, because they were on furlough as well, and we were on furlough, or ‘leave’ as we call it, ‘furlough’ as they call it. And that whole week we spent going to pictures, but Sunday was a very miserable sort of day in Scotland –
HH: Still is in Scotland!
BT: [laughs] we had so many cups of tea, we were, we, we just floated, and we went to the zoo, and we went to, oh I don’t - I can’t remember where we went, but we went to the dancing again, we went, and when I got home back to camp, my friend that I had met in Scotland phoned me and asked me to meet him in London when I was next off. So I said ‘alright’ and we met a few times, and I brought him home to meet mum and dad, and he was in the Eighth Airforce – the American Eighth Airforce –
HH: Eighth in the East!
BT: And, um, we met quite a few times, and then one night the phone rang, I answered it, and – no, I was told, there’s a - you’re wanted on the phone, so I answered it and it was Fred and he said ‘hi Betty, we’re gonna go home, we’ve gotta get ready for the Far East’ because the Japanese were still fighting, of course, and he said ‘but, I want you to marry me before I go – will you marry me?’, and there was a – this is - I don’t like to say this because it makes me feel so stupid – there was an ITMA show on, and the saying was ‘ee, I’ll ‘ave to ask me dad’ in a Northern accent [laughing] and I thought he was kidding me, and that’s what I said [laughing]. Well he didn’t listen to our shows of course, he’d be listening to Jack Benny or Bob Hope or something, and he said ‘well okay then’ [laughing] ‘okay Betty, you ask your dad’ [laughing] ‘if he says, if he says yes’ [laughing]. So anyway I asked my dad and he said ‘no I don’t think that’s a good idea, I think you should just get engaged’, so the next night when Fred called me I said ‘no dad says I can’t get married, but we could get engaged’. ‘No’ he said, ‘I don’t wanna leave this country ‘til I’m – ‘til you’re with me, and you’re married to me’, so [laughing] I said ‘oh alright then, where – ‘ [laughing] how silly now I think about [laughing] so silly, and I, so I said ‘oh well alright then, when?’. Well this was just after VE Day, he said ‘June the 9th’ [pause] I said ‘gosh that’s, that’s awfully quickly, I don’t know if I can do that, because’ I said ‘you do a lot of investigating of girls and I’d have to go through that and that takes a long time’. ‘No’ he said, ‘it’s alright because my, my commanding officer is a, married to a WAAF and he knows what to do and he can just go straight through to your WAAF officer and he will know exactly your character’ etcetera, etcetera, and, um, ‘there’ll be no problem’. So I said ‘ohh, okay, June the 9th it is’, he said ‘besides it’s my birthday and [laughing, unclear] on my birthday’, so, that’s what happened.
HH: So where did you get married?
BT: In Saint Mary’s church, in the local church in, in Aylesbury, and we had neighbours helping us, and my c-, my warrant officer, he, uh, booked a hotel in London for a couple of nights, and we had all sorts of volunteers for sandwiches because it was very difficult [emphasis] to get things, and the girl across the road, was a Belgian girl married to a British tommy, and she had come over and she was the same size as me. She still had her, her wedding gown, and she said ‘you can borrow my wedding dress’, I said ‘well I want to be married in uniform’ – my father wouldn’t let me, but I wanted to be married, but he said ‘no you’re not, you only get married once and I want you to be married in white’ so –
HH: You were married in white.
BT: - I was married in white, yup. And we had a nice, quite a nice wedding and reception at mummy’s house. We were squashed but it was alright, we had fun. But then, we went on the train, to London to the hotel that my warrant officer had booked for us. As a matter of fact he sat in the same carriage as us, and my husband said he was quite upset, he kept staring at me like, staring at him, like ‘you’d better look after that girl’ [laughs]. Oh well, yes.
HH: And then did he depart soon after that for the Far East?
BT: Yes, yes, about, about two weeks. No - I don’t know that it was two weeks, it could have been – it could have been less, I don’t know, but it was a quick, quick time. I know I met him a couple of times in Norwich because he was going, and I went up there quickly to see him before, before he left, and that was it and I didn’t see him again until the following February.
HH: And what happened then?
BT: Well, what happened then? I went over on the Queen Mary, I went down to um, what was the name of the place… was it Innsworth? Think it was Innsworth, for about four or five days, waiting to go on the boat, and they did an FFI (Free From Infection, as you know) with everybody, and those of us who were in the We- couldn’t give a darn about that we were used to that monthly you know, but some of these poor girls had never had anything like that done to them and, they didn’t like it at all, and some of them had babies. But, um, we got on the Queen Mary and so many days later we arrived in New York, and I had said to my husband, ‘if you’re not in New York to meet me, I’m not going to get – I’m going to get a boat back, I’ve got enough money, I’m going to get a boat back’, and he said ‘well I’ve been called up to go to spring training down to Texas because he was with, being picked for the Dodgers, Pat Derry [?] had signed him up for spring training to see, along with many others, I might add – because he played baseball here with the American Air Force, and he said ‘so I don’t know if I can’, I said ‘well if you’re not there I’m not, I’m going, going home’, so anyway he said he would be there no matter what. So I wasn’t ever really sure. And then they were calling over the tannoy ‘would Betty Ethel Turner please come to dockside’, well my name isn’t Betty Ethel Turner, it’s Betty May Turner, and we were in alphabetical order in this cabin – we even had a Major Turnipseed’s [?] wife, in there [unclear, laughs], anyway, um, we all helped Betty Ethel Turner get things in her case, but she wasn’t expecting to go, they were going to take the girls that weren’t being met to their own organisations, and anyway - so I, and I was a bit disappointed when Betty Ethel went, but anyway about ten minutes later they called out ‘will Betty May [emphasis] Turner please report to dockside’ and everybody helps me get all my stuff together. So I’m walking down the gangplank, and here’s poor Betty Ethel Turner coming back with her bag – ‘they tried to give me to your husband’ [laughing], I can’t tell you how he said [pause] but he said ‘that is not my wife!’ and he [unclear, laughing, possibly ‘worried him to death’].
HH: So you were reunited – you were reunited?
BT: So he was very relieved when I came down the pla – in fact he jumped the barrier, he shouldn’t have done of course but he did. And they all looked so different, they were in zoot suits and those fedora type hats, you know, so [emphasis] different. Yes.
HH: And how long did you spend in the States then?
BT: Twenty-four years.
HH: Where were you living?
BT: Detroit, Michigan.
HH: And how did, how did you feel about leaving and going to live in the States?
BT: I didn’t – I was unhappy leaving my family of course, but really it was excitement for me and if you’ve been away from home living since you were seventeen, I, by that time, well I spent my 21st birthday in the mid-Atlantic, on the Queen Mary, that was my 21st birthday. That’s why I was glad my dad said yes I could get married - well, they didn’t really agree but they agreed to in the end, because they could stop me up to twenty-one, they could have stopped me, if they’d really wanted to. But, I had a good life out there, but he didn’t make, he didn’t make the baseball team and he came back four weeks later, so I, when I went I was totally alone with strangers, and it was, it was strange, but, you know, after, after he came back we lived with his parents while [emphasis] we built our own house in the next block. And then of course I had my girls, and I belonged to the Daughters of the British Empire out there, which is an organisation as, as you probably know, and um, and then it all sort of went – mmm, after twenty four years I suppose it would have been, I, in nine- in the year before I bought him a set of golf clubs for Christmas [laughs], which I never should have done I suppose really, I never saw him again he was on the golf course – well that’s just a, a, you know , a thumbnail story.
HH: So you just came back, you just decided to come back?
BT: Well Donna had come back here, my oldest daughter, we sent her over to see nan and grandad as a, as a graduation present when she was eighteen, now she was older than I was when I left home, oh, when I left home the first time, and so it seemed ok but I did miss her terribly. And then of course this one was going, and one thing and another and I thought [sighs] ‘can’t be doing with this’, and um he, more or less agreed to it of course. He didn’t remarry, I didn’t remarry, I did have a partner for many years, here, but um, after I’d been here a while.
HH: But you’ve done this amazing thing to reassemble your family near Aylesbury.
BT: Well, part of it, yes. But it w – my mother was dead against divorce, they thought it was terrible my getting a divorce, but my mother was ill for a while and I would go over every day, take her a – do the house cleaning and, and look after her, and when she went into hospital she didn’t come out again – she was ninety-odd mind you, ninety, ‘bout ninety-four actually I figured. And um, then my father, and she said to me ‘everything happens for the best you know, because’ she said ‘what would we have done’. And then of course dad became ill, and I had him here for two years before he went to hospital for only just a few days and died, and he was ninety-seven when he died.
HH: So you’ve got longevity in your family.
BT: Well, I, I don’t know I don’t think so – well, so far it’s been long, but, I do have, um, I do have cancer. So I, you know, you never know do you? No.
HH: But it’s been in more recent years, Betty, that you have taken to producing these really very beautiful artworks about your memories of the WAAF – tell us about that.
BT: Well, well, when you’re alone more than anything – because I really didn’t start, um, well, Terry wa – did I do it while Terry was alive?
SM: Not so much.
BT: Not a lot, did I? I would – I know, it was a Christmas, he said ‘what d’you want for Christmas?’ and I said ‘I really would love some watercolours for Christmas’, and I’ve got a box of watercolours that he bought me for Christmas, with brushes, and I started, and I didn’t do very much at first, not at first, and then I – he was poorly, and I nursed him for about six years before he died, and all that time that he was poorly, I was able to sit and do my painting and stuff. And I did a lot of it then, quite a lot of it, and then after he died, and he’s been gone six years – so it’s been about twelve years that I’ve done the painting.
HH: And now, you could’ve chosen all kinds of subjects to paint, but you chose something quite specific, why?
BT: I chose, because I could see them. I could see the girls that I’ve painted. I would get, I would get a book and look at some, one or two, that I’ve painted with a plane in it possibly I’ve had to copy, because I wasn’t on an aerodrome, and they were, and I wanted to recognise them as well, you know, but others I’ve just remembered when we were, for instance, cleaning our, cleaning our irons in the dirty – everybody says we had lovely hot water, we never [emphasis] had lovely hot water, by the re- time the rest of us were coming out of the cook house that water would be ho-, warm, lukewarm and greasy, the grease would be floating on the top, but we still had to rinse them you know. What else would we do? Well we had, nowhere to, nowhere to wash the [unclear], anyway – and so that’s where I’ve done most of my art. Or if somebody call– once or twice somebody’s called up ‘Betty would you do one with so-and-so’, um, ‘I’d like one, I’d like a birthday card for my, for my mother, she’s going to be ninety’ or something ‘and I want - and she was in the WAAF and I want you to do a postcard or a birthday card for her’, so I would do one, one of those, and te- and Shelley my daughter, bless her, she copies them, well not copies them, yes she’s got a copier, and I, so I try and keep the originals and the copies, and the copies go. And that’s what the Association does when I do a card, I send them a copy and they keep it.
HH: In your view, do you think that the WAAFs have received the recognition that they deserve in the years since World War 2, for what they did?
BT: Absolutely not, no, that’s a - that’s a real sore point with me. I could go into the town for Memorial Day and the men, the - ‘come on, come on, let’s line up’, and then I’m there, and I even have my tie and my blue shirt and my blazer with a, with my medal even, but they w-, they wouldn’t bring me to the front. The men come to the front, and you, you know, sort of thing, but it’s like that all the time. And the memorial in London, well. Those coats on a hook. I haven’t seen it, I’ve seen it in a photograph, but I haven’t – I don’t go up to London, I’m not in a fit state to go up to London really, I s’pose I could go, I could persevere and go, make up my mind I’m going, I would love to see the Bomber Command memorial thing up there, I think that must be wonderful – but it’s just the bomber boys isn’t it, the boys that flew, who were absolutely wonderful I think, but everybody else behind those boys were wonderful too, weren’t they?
Other: Indeed.
BT: And everybody - I go to museums and it’s all planes and where are the WAAF? They were there. But you don’t get any recognition at all. Very seldom anyway. The films – you see films of the boys and the planes, but very few WAAF. It might be a love story so they have to put a WAAF in it.
HH: I was going to say -
BT: And she’s an officer’s [unclear] –
HH: - it seems to me that that seems, you know, if you look at, films and things since the war that’s been the way in which WAAFs have tended to be portrayed is as partners or as the love interest rather than as, you know, serious participants in the war effort.
BT: Yes. That’s right, yes, yes. That’s right.
SM: Can I say something here? The one thing that I notice going to the WAAF reunions is the amazing variety of jobs that they had, that the WAAF had during the war. The engine fitters, the plane deliverers, there are so many other things that they did that were men’s jobs, and these little ladies who looked as though they couldn’t blow a feather away, were just fantastic. I was just full of admiration for them, and that isn’t recognised enough.
BT: That’s right. That one woman that we were talking – one lady that sat next to you – what did she do, Shelley?
SM: She was a Stirling engine fitter.
BT: A Stirling engine fitter.
Shelly: And she was four-foot-nothing.
BT: [laughing] Now she’s a four-foot-nothing.
HH: Do you think that that started during the war though? In the sense that there was a certain ambiguity to the role that women were playing, I mean, it was obviously a necessary role to release um, men to take part in front line duty, and especially in Bomber Command with the attrition rate being quite high, um, but there was still nevertheless an ambivalence as to whether women should be playing that role.
BT: Oh yes, oh yes.
HH: Did you feel that, that at the time?
BT: Where I was stationed, not so much, because there were quite a few WAAF there and the men, they would not be on the set as much as we would be, but they would be charging the batteries and all sorts of things like that you know, and you – the men that were there a lot of times were photographers and guards, that – we would be teased, as WAAF, I mean they would say ‘go fetch something’ and it wasn’t there or it- ‘what the heck do you want’ you know, no, you got used to that sort of thing. Or if they had a joke, oh, ‘tell Betty, she’ll laugh’, you know, and I’d laugh but I wouldn’t know what they were talking about sometimes, hadn’t a clue [laughs], very innocent, sort of, you know, but um, it was – but I’ve noticed it a lot more since the last, oh I don’t know, I don’t think when I was in the states that it ever came up, because they didn’t know what WAAF were in the – I did have some friends that were in the WAAF though that married Americans, ‘cause we had this club where quite a few English girls and quite a few of them were in the WAAF, or several of them were in the WAAF anyway, because they were working with Americans some of them, on camp, and they, they were closely working with them and became friendly, very friendly, some of them. But on the whole it was since I’ve been here I notice the, the, sort of - Oh, if I told people, and I don’t do it very often, I’ve done it more lately than I ever have in my life, I’ve said I was in the WAAF and they say ‘oh were you? What did you do?’ and I’d tell them, ‘oooh’, you know, the minute you mention Bletchley Park that’s the only way you’ll get any notice, because that’s had publicity, and, you know, that sort of thing. I don’t know. But I do wish we had – on one of my friends, as a matter of fact my best friend, Jane, she thought that we’ve got to have a memorial up at the Arboretum, we’ve got to have something, and she started, and she planned it, and it was taken out of her hands by a few people in the Association, and her village, and it was built not the way she wanted it to be built, and she was warned that it wouldn’t last this particular way these people were going to do it, and it just broke her heart and even now we’ve got to spend a lot of money now getting it cleaned up and straightened up the way – actually, it would be better to take it down and start all over again, the way Jane wanted it done, it’s been so sad and we’re spending too much money on it, keeping it clean. And one thing and another, and that’s the only one we’ve got, that I know of, there, and that’s at the Arboretum, up your way, isn’t it?
HH: It’s Staffordshire isn’t it? Alrewas.
BT: Yeah. It’s quite a lovely place, but terribly disappointing that particular – so it’s good to have something, isn’t it?
HH: And I hope, very much, that you will approve of what we plan to do in terms of commemorating the WAAFs’ contribution in the new Bomber Command centre.
BT: I hope so. And I wish you the very best of luck in getting it done. I know that I won’t be alive to see it, but I shall hope that my family will go and see it.
HH: Well Betty thank you very much for that interview [telephone rings]
BT: Oh sorry, I’ll turn it -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Betty Turner
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Great Britain. Women's Auxiliary Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Betty Turner served in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force with Bomber Command at 92 Group Headquarters, Winslow, and later at RAF Great Massingham, reaching the rank of leading aircraftswoman. She recounts living in chilly stables, being quite bored by Morse code, and the life-long bond that was forged between her and other Women’s Auxiliary Air Force members. She married an American whom she met during the war and they lived together in the United States for 24 years. After their divorce she settled close to her family in Aylesbury in the United Kingdom, where she had grown up. Betty Turner has been painting images from her days in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force for twelve years because the memories of her service remain so vivid; some have been used for the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force Association annual Christmas card.
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Christina Brown
Heather Hughes
Format
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00:50:39 audio recording
Identifier
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ATurnerB150602
Date
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2015-06-02
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Norfolk
United States
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
arts and crafts
entertainment
ground personnel
love and romance
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Great Massingham
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Boldy, David
Dave Boldy
D A Boldy
Description
An account of the resource
334 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant David Adrian Boldy (1918 – 1942, 923995 Royal Air Force) and consists of his school reports, letters from school and photographs of family and locations in India, letters from training and service, and photographs from his social life and time training. It also includes newspaper cuttings and letters about him being missing in action. David Boldy was born and attended school in India and studied law at Kings College London. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained as an air gunner in South Africa. He flew operations in Manchesters and Lancasters with 207 Squadron from RAF Bottesford. His aircraft failed to return from an operation to Gdańsk 11 July 1942. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Boldy and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.<br /><br />Additional information on David Boldy is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/102182/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Boldy, DA
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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7, Wallace Court,
300, Marylebone Rd,
London N. W. 1.,
27th Nov: 1938.
My darling Dad,
Thanks very much for your letter and all your news. The two attractive girls didn’t turn up. Still since then I have been making headway in other directions.
In the first Round Cup match a week ago we beat Battersea Polytechnic 4-2. This Wednesday we meet Imperial College in the 2nd Round & if we beat them we go to the semi-final. Last Wednesday we played against Westminster College who have not been beaten this season. We were leading 2-0 when the game was [deleted] stop [/deleted] abandoned owing to bad weather. Yesterday in the morning I played [indecipherable word] hockey. King’s won 11-4. I was playing goal-keeper back & dribbled the whole field and scored a goal. In the afternoon we played the [indecipherable word] 1st match against Staines I who we beat 2-1. Since the Team has been reorganised and Prince & I (both from India) have played backs with the exception of the first game in which we played we have not lost a game.
After the hockey I came home, had dinner and
[page break]
went in to the informal dance at [indecipherable name] Square. I had a lovely time. Some other law students from King’s were there and also one of two girls doing law with us.
On Thursday I went for a fitting of my tails. The man remarked that it looked as if it was going to be a good fit. It certainly fitted well. I go for a second fitting on Wednesday.
We have had a stroke of luck. As students were wanted for the filming of “Good Bye Mr Chips” [sic] Steve got in with some Mary’s fellows and so did I. We went to Denham on Friday and tried on various clothes. It took us the whole day but was worth it as we received £1 10 each salary [deleted] as extras [/deleted] As we are extras i.e. take part in the crowd scenes etc. I don’t know when we go again. If it is this Monday or Wednesday, I shan’t go as it clashes with two hockey cup matches, otherwise I shall. We may probably make about £10 each out of this.
No more to-day. Love to Mrs Joseph. God bless & keep you & bring you back safely soon to us,
With lots of love & kisses
from your loving son
[underlined] David [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Description
An account of the resource
Letter from David Boldy to his father about playing hockey for King’s and studying law. He got included in the filming of Good Bye Mr Chips with his brother Steve, as extras in the crowd scenes, filmed at Denham studios.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Boldy
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938-11-27
Format
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Two page handwritten letter
Language
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eng
Type
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Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
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EBoldyDABoldyAD381127
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938-11
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Title
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Letter from David Boldy to his father
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nicky Brain
entertainment
sport
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/1564/PBriggsDW1701.1.jpg
0ddb6a37aec4aa568c806c57545b57bd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/1564/ABriggsDW170327.1.mp3
154ae8a60c9fc85e03bb0d4e30404e55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Briggs, Donald
Donald W Briggs
D W Briggs
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-27
Identifier
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Briggs, DW
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with flight engineer Donald Ward Briggs (1924 - 2018), his logbook, memoirs and 16 wartime and post war photographs. He completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders flying from RAF Upwood. Post war, Donald Briggs retrained as a pilot flying Meteors and Canberras. He eventually joined the V-Force on Valiants and was the co-pilot for the third British hydrogen bomb test at Malden Island in 1957.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Donald Briggs and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PJ: My name is Pete Jones. I’m interviewing Flight Lieutenant Donald Briggs DFC. Other people attending are Sandra Jones, Pete Jones and Ann Kershaw. It is Monday the 27th of March 2017 and we are in Mr Briggs’ home in Freeland, Oxfordshire. Thank you Donald for agreeing to be interviewed for the IBCC. Donald, now tell me about your early years before you joined up Bomber Command.
DB: Right. Thank you Peter. Well, I was brought up in a small village called Lealholm which was about ten miles from Whitby on the north east coast and my parents ran the village post office and general stores and I, I used to help out while I was a teenager and that sort of thing and then I went to, I went to Whitby County School, a good grammar school and I did five years there but I decided that having seen some advertising literature for the air force and apprenticeships at RAF Halton, and so I applied and then I sat the entrance exam and got through all right, and this was as things were building up towards World War Two. And so the Royal Air Force were recruiting ground servicing personnel in pretty large numbers. At this time I was a fifteen year old and so I saw my chance to learn all about aircraft and what, how you put them together and so on and so I applied for the examination as I said. And I joined at Halton on two days after the war was declared. And that was on the 5th of September 1939. And so there is little doubt that the harsh discipline at Halton coupled with excellent theoretical lessons in schools, and the schools were known as Kermode Hall after the well-known Kermode, the aerodynamicist and he used to teach there actually, and many hours filing pieces of metal in workshops. And it turned boys into men and later in the course we worked in teams stripping down and re-assembling many types of aero engines and at the end of the training which was reduced a bit because of being wartime, and there was a great demand for fitters out in the units, in the fighting units. So my first posting was at RAF Finningley which is about ten miles from Doncaster. And I worked there on the engines of Wellington bombers and Hampden bombers and the Rolls Royce Vulture engines in the Avro Manchester and they, they gave a lot of trouble and er, which meant there were several engine changes that I assisted in. And the next posting was to RAF Upper Heyford where I was promoted to corporal at the age of eighteen. Now there I worked on the Wellington Mark 3 with more powerful Hercules engines and after carrying out rectification on an aircraft if an air test was necessary I usually asked if I could accompany the pilot. Which I did on several occasions and after approximately two and a half years I decided that more excitement was needed so I volunteered for air crew. The president of the selection board said that I had passed all the tests to become a pilot, but the waiting list for pilots was pretty lengthy and also there was a little demand, this was mid-1943 and the commanding officer of the board interviewing, the selection board er he, he said, ‘Now look you’re already a technician, a fitter 2E,’ he said, ‘And what we need is flight engineers,’ and so he said, ‘You want to, you’ll be on operations within six months. You do want to fight don’t you?’ And of course I had to say, ‘Yes. Of course I do,’ and that’s how I became a flight engineer, by passing the course at Royal Air Force St Athan in Wales. Now, during this crewing up procedure when I finished my training I was sent to Lindholme near Doncaster. I was fortunate in meeting the captain of the crew that I was to fly with. He was Flying Officer Bill Neal with his crew and they had already completed a tour of operations on Wellingtons. Now Bill explained that they had been selected to join the Pathfinder force and what our duties would entail. Our first step was to convert on to the Halifax Mark 1 because these were ex beaten up old war, operational aircraft that had seen better days, and so we had to train on them and during our training sorties, Bill Neal gave me a potted flying lesson so that the very, very first aircraft I flew was the Halifax. And that flew alright and I got the hang of how to fly straight and level and do gentle turns and so on, but we completed the course of thirty hours and went on to convert on to the Lancaster at RAF Hemswell, north of Lincoln. Or nearer to Gainsborough actually. I did the night conversion on to the Lancaster on my twentieth birthday, would you believe? And after attending a short course to learn the Pathfinder procedures we joined number 156 squadron Pathfinders at RAF Upwood near Peterborough. And as a new crew we had two weeks of training to complete during which time I took on the additional role of bomb aimer. I was taught how to run up on the, set the bomb sight up to start with and, and then how to run up and give corrections to the pilot, running up to the dropping point, aiming point. And we dropped practice bombs at a nearby bombing range which I seemed to get the hang of quite, quite well. And also during this time Bill Neal vacated his seat. There were no dual control Lancasters on squadrons you see, just a single set of controls in the left hand seat for the captain, but he allowed me to fly this superb aircraft, the Lancaster. And on completion of this training we were declared operational and on the 11th of June 1944, we saw that our crew was on the battle order. All a bit, a bit terrifying for a new chap like myself. The target was vast marshalling yards at Tours in the south of France. The Germans were routing most of their reinforcements through here to the Normandy battlefront. Now, on this particular trip we had a couple of night fighter sightings and attacks and Bill Neal being a terrific pilot he corkscrewed and got rid of them. The whole secret was if you had a rear gunner with such good night vision and if he saw the night fighter before he saw you, then you stood a fairly decent chance of getting away without, without disaster. Well, firstly I volunteered for aircrew and I was fully committed now. There was no turning back. Anybody that did turn back were, were called lack of moral fibre and they were, they were given the most terrible mucky jobs that you could ever imagine. And so, but anyway I stuck with it and destiny would decide whether or not I survived. And secondly I was fortunate in joining a very experienced crew and they all made me a welcome addition to the crew. They had not flown previously with a flight engineer because the Wellington didn’t need one and so on. I should explain that in Pathfinder crews the reason the flight engineers took on the extra duty of visual bomb aimer was that the primary bomb aimer operated the H2S radar, and a lot of our targets relied on this for identification and running up and so on. Now 156 Squadron were primarily a blind marker squadron which meant that if no target indicator flares were seen by the master bomber, he would call for blind markers to be dropped and they were reds which is where we came in. And they would be seen cascading and so on, and give an initial aiming point for the main force of bombers running in. The master bomber would then know that the markers were dropped blind and the target had not been visually identified. But on the very first operation we were about to fly we were part of the illuminating force, and we carried twelve rather large hooded parachute flares. And you drop all twelve together and that was like turning the target into a daylight. The visually illuminated target so they were able to, to identify the aiming point, the master bomber. We had a master bomber and his deputy and he had a dicey job. He used to go right down to about four thousand feet and circle around and a very dangerous job. Some of them didn’t make it and were shot down. And on the first ten operations mostly dropping flares, and on — I was mentioning earlier about the run in to the Tours marshalling yards we had two night fighter attacks and we thought actually that — we heard later that these were night fighter pilots that were training down in France so they weren’t sort of fully, fully operational like their counterparts in, up in Germany and Holland and so on. And so it was a great feeling to be safely on the ground back at our Upwood base and I often used to say to my colleagues, my — well between us we’ve said we climbed up that ladder of the Lancaster at the back end where you board the aircraft, not knowing whether we’d ever be in the position to come back, climb down it again on to terra firma so — but happily I did that sixty-two times. Gratefully rather, I survived those to, climb down that ladder again. And I, our crew was sent on Allied support for the ground forces on the Normandy battlefront and we dropped sticks of one thousand pounders, fourteen bombs in a rapid stick of bombs from only four thousand feet. And the aircraft shook very badly with the blast as you’d expect at that height, and we could see the blast rings coming up from other people’s bombs as well. And we also attacked the V1 launch sights in the Pas-de-Calais area. And the, we formation, six Lancasters formatted on a Mosquito aircraft which was equipped with this very accurate blind bombing system called Oboe. They, they used that for, some of the Pathfinder squadrons used it for marking targets as well. So that when his bomb doors opened we opened ours and when we saw the bombs leave his bomb bay we hit our bomb release button and, as you can imagine that was a lot of bombs going down, usually finishing up in rendering the buzz bombs site unusable. And that must have saved a lot of lives in the, around London. And my first German target was Hamburg, and that was our thirteenth op. And it was quite a, quite a dicey town. Very heavily defended of course as always was Hamburg, being a major port and ship building and that. But we came through the barrage unscathed. My skipper always used to say, ‘What you see in the sky is what’s been, the flak bursts and they’re not going to do us any harm. It’s the ones you can’t see that er.’ But anyway, night fighters were of course were in the area, and we saw several bombers going down in flames, and erm, it was a sickening sight and we, er, sort of sympathised with our colleagues and comrades. They would meet their end in a fireball from bombs and fuel when they hit the ground. It was a sickening sight but we made a note of its position and we got on with our own job. And there wasn’t much else you could do. [pause] Bill Neal, my skipper, always said to me, ‘Don,’ he said, ‘when we’ve finished our tour of operations,’ not if but when, he said, ‘I’m going to put you up for commissioning and,’ he said, ‘Then you can join the rest of us in the officer’s mess.’ So I said, ‘Oh well that’s good. Pleased to hear that,’ and sure enough that’s what happened. After I’d done forty operations and about the end of my first tour and I had an interview with Air Vice Marshall, Don Bennett up at Pathfinder headquarters and he was satisfied and so I became Pilot Officer Don Briggs. And erm, so the — I carried on with Bill because he was awarded the DFC because he’d already, that completed two tours of operations having done one before I met him. So what one more tour and of course usually, certainly a skipper got the DFC. And, but I’ll just tell you during a daylight operation to a target called Kleve in October ’44, we had a flak burst right on the port wing tip. And it, we thought it was really the end, you know, because it was that close. And it damaged the aileron quite badly on the port side, but we still had, skipper had control of the aircraft well and with his amazing piloting skill brought us back to a safe landing back at Upwood. But there was substantial damage, the aileron was, was in a terrible mess. And I pressed on in to my second tour with Bill apart from one operation with another crew as their flight engineer had completed his tour of operations. And one of which was with the squadron commander, one of these battlefront operations, and I had the gunnery leader, the squadron leader was — I was on the bomb sight at the front, and he was in the front turret with his legs, and one of his legs was in plaster. He’d, he’d broken a leg or done something, and in plaster, and this was rubbing on my ear as I was trying to aim bombs and he was swivelling around the front turret which normally wasn’t manned at all. And so that was about it. I’m happy to say that despite several very close shaves, I came through sixty two operations unscathed. Lady Luck was certainly on my side. Bill Neal pressed on with another flight engineer and notched up just short of a hundred ops and he was awarded the DSO and he’d already got the DFC. And the French awarded him the Croix de Guerre, and I’m eternally grateful to Bill for getting me through the most dangerous period of my life. He made sure that my operational record was recognised resulting in the award of the DFC in July 1945. I’ve got a few statistics here which are, to save boring everybody, the number of French targets that we did was twenty-four but German targets exceeded that. Thirty-eight we did to German targets. Forty-one of those were night operations and we did twenty-one daylight operations some of which were daylight ops on Ruhr targets in the hell’s, what do they call it? Hell’s valley or something? Happy valley. That was it. And forty-one of those operations we had our own Lancaster which was GT J-Johnny. And so we flew that and of course that meant our own ground crew and we got to know them pretty well. Of those ops we did three raids on oil refineries, because the Germans were desperately short of fuel towards the end of the war and you can’t run a war machine without fuel. And the V1 sights we did, five of those attacks I was telling you about and five on the battlefront and, and then four on marshalling yards. Ruhr targets. Yes ten. We did ten of those and four in daylight, and my last thirty operations were all German targets. Now, it was a massive relief as you can imagine to have survived all those ops and great to be able to enjoy end of second tour leave with my parents and four younger brothers. I’m the eldest of five. So that ended my wartime contribution to the, to the war effort and I, after the war I was selected for Transport Command and flew on Yorks as a flight engineer going out to India and the Far East. And did that for a couple of years and then was posted to the Empire Test Pilot School at Farnborough and I got some valuable experience there. Only the very, very best of pilots were selected and of course we had exchange officers from America, from the United States Air Force and also the US navy. They sent a representative to the, representative to the empire test pilots course. And a lot of those test pilots that I flew with under training they became, you know, top test pilots for the different companies. And so a very interesting three years out, flying Lincolns and things mostly. And after that I was posted to Manby in Lincolnshire where I met an ex-Pathfinder wing commander and he advised me if I wanted to take pilot training, re-train as a pilot, I should write him a letter which I did. And he must have found it fairly satisfactory ‘cause he, he had me to London, to Hornchurch for a selection board and I passed everything there, all the aptitude tests and so on. And very soon in the summer of ’51, late summer, I started training as a pilot at RAF Ternhill in Shropshire and that was — I enjoyed every minute, every minute of that. It was wonderful. And so er, I passed out from there, graduated and awarded those prestigious pilot’s wings that, all RAF pilots remember being presented with their wings. And so I’ll lead on later to describe my, what, what the, what my path through the peacetime air force was. Right. Now. In the August of 1951, I was allowed to start my conversion to retrain as a pilot. And so I promptly, having got furnished accommodation for Edith and we had two children then and, in Louth, and I used to travel across to Ternhill in Shropshire. So the first two weeks of the course naturally was ground school and exams and all the rest of it. And then we started flying, and the aircraft then for training was the Percival Prentice which was a lumbering old thing, but you could do, you could do sort of basic aerobatics with it and so I went solo on that. My instructor sent me off on my own after about four or five hours. Something like that. And then I did sixty hours on the jet, Percival Provost and then I went on to Harvards and that was a wonderful machine to fly. A very big powerful five hundred and fifty horsepower engine in front of you and not easy to see when you’re flowing out for landing. The engine gets in the way, you’ve got to sort of look over the side a little bit. Anyway, I loved flying the Harvard and completed the course and did my final handling test and so on and graduated for my pilot’s wings presented by some air vice marshall and so I’ve still got the photograph. I trained with a lot of chaps that were engineering officers and they were sort of doing a seconded tour in the general duties flying branch just before going back on to engineering. And so from there it was a question of advanced training over at Oakington in Cambridgeshire, and the Meteor was the standard trainer for jet conversion. I had a French instructor of the French Armee de L’air, and George Golee [?]sent me on my first solo in a Meteor Mark 7 and that was enjoyable and went very well. And the, then working my way through the course — the one thing that I didn’t enjoy too much was at night climbing above thirty thousand feet unpressurised and I had a pretty bad attack of the bends. And ask anybody what the, what that’s like and all your joints, it’s the nitrogen that comes out in the joints of your, everywhere knees, ankles the whole lot, so you can only spend a few minutes above thirty. However, and down we came, and the one thing about the Meteor was when you’d been up high everything used to mist up on the inside so you’re sort of rubbing frantically to be able to see out for the landing. However, that was ok and I passed my final handling test with the wing commander, chief instructor and he seemed quite pleased with my performance and he, on landing, after landing offered me the chance of going straight back to Central Flying School to become a flying instructor. Like what we would call in the service creamed off. Creamed off CFS. Now I politely declined and said I was flattered and so on, but I would like to proceed to a Canberra squadron. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Yes, that’s fine just I was giving you the chance, you know.’ So that’s what I did, and I proceeded to Bassingbourn to convert on to Canberras, and in those days there was no dual controlled Canberra. You just had to ride alongside someone on the, what we used to call the rumble seat, and er, see what he did and make a note of the speeds and everything, and then on the second trip he would climb out and look up through the hatch and raise his thumb and say are you happy, and all the rest of it and off I went. Well I think somebody else had control, namely the almighty I think had control of that Canberra on take-off. They er, it was so steep, but anyway. I enjoyed my first, first solo and certainly strange having to fly an aircraft where you’d never handled the controls previously, anyway. And so from there I was posted right up to Lincolnshire to, to join 10 Squadron. We were just forming the first Canberra squadron at Scampton. And we, straightaway I was made a flight commander and in charge of all the servicing and so on, on the eight Canberras. And so we, we got on pretty well and the Canberra’s a wonderful aircraft to fly. Quite light on the controls and plenty of power there and so on. And we did lots of exercises, and I always remember on my first early night flying we were, couldn’t land back at Scampton because of bad weather and we were diverted down in to Cornwall to then St Eval which is just near, just north of Newquay. And the trouble with St Eval is that the runway is up high on the cliffs and you come, you come right in on the approach and this was at night and remember, and I hadn’t flown at night for quite some time and coming in over these cliffs and the runway itself had a great big hump in the middle so you could only see half of it when you touched down. And then happily the final half of the runway came into view as you went over the hump. But I got away with it alright, and so and then of course we spent the night and went back to Scampton the following day. My, my time at Scampton involved quite a lot of diversions. There was once we were diverted up to Kinloss in Scotland. And the Canberra had a fairly good performance for, for the time in the air, endurance as we called it. And so during that time on Canberras my boss was, he was an ex-flight commander over at Binbrook on Canberras, and he was promoted and took over 10 Squadron. And Punch Howard [?] was a great Mosquito night fighter ace and he used to go over these German night fighter airfields and fire off the colours of the day and join in the circuit and shoot down two or three night fighters by doing so. And for this he got the DFC and the DFC and bar as well. And so he set up a formation display team and he gave me a check for my formation flying, and he was happy so I joined his team. And we used to give displays up and down the country and there was one in particular when the National Air Races were on at Coventry airport. And so we gave this display and they gave us a good write up in the flight magazine and also a very congratulatory letter from the president of the Royal Aero Club, which I’ve still got a copy. And so that was, that was my forte if you like on 10 Squadron and from there I, we were actually moved over to East Anglia to, to 3 Group at Honington, RAF Honington near Bury St Edmunds actually. And so I spent about three or four months there before they suddenly came up with a posting and I was to be one of the first pilots to join the new V bomber force on Valiants. The, the courses were starting at RAF Gaydon near Leamington Spa, and so I joined as a co-pilot for Squadron Leader Arthur Steele, who later became air commodore. And so we were posted initially to 138 Squadron at Wittering and Edith was — we actually couldn’t get married quarters, they hadn’t built, they hadn’t finished building them so we lived in an old country hall called Rushington Hall. And so the, it was a wonderful old place, and we had one wing of the place to ourselves and it had a lounge half the size of a hangar. And the boys used to ride around on their tricycles up and down the corridors in this thing, this place. But it was, it was good and then by the time we’d spent three or four months there we were given a married quarter at Wittering and we, there we stayed in that for a good five or six years. Then 138 Squadron was the first squadron to form on Valiants of course but then they were forming a new squadron, 49, 49 Squadron to do the Grapple operation. That was the H bomb trials in the pacific from Christmas Island and our crew, Arthur Steele that is, and myself and the rest of the crew, were selected and in the April, sorry in the March of 1957 we all flew out to Christmas Island via Canada. Goose Bay first and then Edmonton, Alberta and then down to San Francisco where we spent a couple of days, and were able to do some sightseeing and exploring in the good old San Francisco. And then the big leg from there to Honolulu was against headwinds normally and we could work out that providing that the headwinds weren’t greater than sixty knots we were ok. We had enough fuel to get there and a little bit to spare. But and as it happened on the day the winds were lighter than that so we were fine. So it was, Arthur Steele was a good skipper. He used to share the landings with me and if it was my turn come hell or high water I would do it and the one at Honolulu was at Hickam air force base and you come right in over Pearl Harbour on the final approach. So that was, I couldn’t look for very, very long I’m afraid, just a quick glance. And so we had a lovely time and it happened to fall on St Patrick’s Day when we were in and of course there was a big, the Americans celebrate that pretty well and we had, they entertained us very well in the officer’s club. And a couple of days later we flew down the thousand mile leg to the south of Christmas Island. Now, the runway had been built by the army, The Royal Engineers and they’d made a good job of it. It was quite a, not a tremendously long runway, but it was long enough just over two thousand yards. And that’s where we prepared for our H bomb drop. So we saw the first one, Squadron Commander Ken Hubbard he dropped the first and Dave Roberts the flight commander he dropped number two and it was our turn for number three. So we’d all prepared and done the drills and so on, the dropping drills. Now, I want to emphasise that we didn’t drop these H bombs and they went into the sea. They burst at eight thousand feet. So there was no, no fallout like some of the previous tests had done by well, say the Americans perhaps or the Japanese they, well, no the Japanese didn’t have it in those days. However, the, there was no fallout and the, but we took ours, it was on June the 19th ‘57 and the yield wasn’t quite as much as the scientists wanted but it was good enough and they were, the British government were then able to specify, say, Britain now can become the, have the facility of nuclear deterrent. The nuclear fallout, nuclear bomb. And so there was to be a fourth, but that was cancelled and we all came the reverse route and flew home. And flew back to Wittering and so that was, that was Operation Grapple. And so we, we settled down and then I, after that, shortly, short time after that I became a captain on the Valiant and posted back to 138 Squadron. [pause] After completing my tour as a Valiant captain which I enjoyed very much, I used to get trips out to Nairobi and did Salisbury which is now called Harare, I think. And er, Germany. I did several trips there with the Valiant and my co-pilot was an ex-fighter pilot, been stationed in Germany so he was able to show us how to get on there in our leisure time. We then, I was posted to Gaydon, as I said and became a ground school instructor on the Victor mark two. Wonderful aircraft, well built and it had all the then high tech, what was high tech in those days, you wouldn’t call it that now. And I used to teach that, and for doing that they allowed me to do first of all the pressured breathing course, because the Victor two would go up to fifty-two, fifty- three thousand feet and if you had an explosive decompression there you were, you were automatically on pressure breathing to get down to forty thousand as quick as possible. So having completed that which, which, which was a bit rigorous, I was able to do the flight simulator on the Victor two and then fly with the OCU instructors. OCU being Operational Conversion Unit which was at Cottesmore. So I, I enjoyed about six flights from either the captain’s seat or the co-pilot’s seat and enjoyed very much flying the Victor and streaming the great big parachute on landing. And you’d swear that somebody had clamped the brakes hard on when you streamed that, fantastic thing and I was later to come across it of course on the Vulcan. So that was the Victor two. Now, from there I was decided to do the central flying school course at Little Rissington. Near Bourton on the Water that was and so I did the course and qualified and became a flying instructor and was posted to Syerston, which was a flying training school near Newark in Nottinghamshire. And there I, I was checked out by the standards people, and allowed to instruct on the aircraft. And my first bunch of students, there was one of them who was particularly good material and tremendous potential and I could tell the way he was flying I only had to show him something once and he had it off pat, absolutely as good as I could show him. And that gentleman was called Brian Hoskins and he later, in later years joined the Red Arrows. He was a member of the team to start with when they were flying the Gnat and then he became leader, and converted them from the Gnat on to the Hawk which they use now of course. And so he led the Red Arrows for, for a couple of years so I’m rather proud of the fact that I helped train him and taught him his first aerobatics and formation flying, which was pretty essential for being in the Red Arrows as you can imagine. So, anyway I enjoyed my tour and I was promised to have a double tour on instructing on the Jet Provost, and I was just enjoying every minute. However, that was not to be. Because I, because I had previous V bomber experience they posted me up to Finningley, where I was to do the Vulcan course. The Vulcan Mark two and so once, once I was trained and finished the course as a Vulcan captain and I went to, you say, call it solo if you like but strangely enough I had an American colonel for my co-pilot on my first trip in a Vulcan. And first trip as captain anyway and he he’d done a tour in Vietnam had this chap, so a very accomplished pilot. And so after that I had to do a short spell of a year or so in the flight simulator, because having an instructor rating of course you need to establish familiarity and the checklist and emergencies in the flight simulator before they actually did the flying. However, they said, ‘Well don’t get too downhearted about it,’ he said, ‘When you’ve done this short spell in the simulator we’ll groom you for stardom Donald and you’ll be given the flying instructor course on Vulcans.’ And that’s how I became a Vulcan flying instructor initially, and they cut, I had to cut my teeth on some young co-pilots who were converting from the right hand seat to the left hand seat just for, they were from squadrons of course. And it meant that they were fairly flexible and they could, providing their captain could, could fly from the right hand seat they would, they would do that. And so and then I went on to take a whole crew, a full crew. And I trained some fairly senior officers, the odd wing commander that was taking over a squadron or a station, a group captain who would be taking over a Vulcan station and so give them the course and and I had some, I had some nasty experiences at night particularly with training, training co-pilots. And they failed to recognise that in a Vulcan once you allowed the speed to fall the Vulcan was, became a high drag machine and it dropped out of the sky very quickly. And so of course being instructors we could recognise this fairly quickly to take control and save the situation as it were. And I had to do this on more than one occasion. At night particularly. Sorry. [recording paused] After completing my tour on the Vulcan OCU as an instructor, I was given my own crew. And we were posted out to Cyprus on to Number nine squadron and I was to become the squadron QFI and then carry out normal duties of a squadron crew as well. So that was wonderful. Edith and I flew out on a VC10 from Brize Norton and the rest of my crew found their way out there somehow. And one of my crew, his wife played the piano, and I’ll just tell you this. You can have a good laugh. She, they managed to even to fly this piano out to Cyprus on some transport aircraft, a Belfast or something. And so anyway, we settled down and we had a very nice hiring in Limassol itself and that was until a married quarter came up and, which it did. After about three months we moved up on to the base into a very nice married quarter and there I continued my, my tour on the squadron and it was very enjoyable. We were able to — if we weren’t flying in the morning we were free to go at about one o’clock and after lunch we were on the beach taking in the sunshine and the nice, in the lagoons swimming. Swimming by the rocks and so on, in the crystal clear water. It was lovely really. It was like a paid holiday. And so that’s how I finished my air force service. I came out in 1973 and I was given a nice send off in the, in the officers mess, dining in night. And so we, Edith and I we’d bought a Volvo car and I was hoping to get it in duty free, but to get a car in from overseas duty free you’d got to have it over a year and I’d only had this Volvo about six months so I knew I was going to have to pay duty on it. However, we drove home. Got the ferry to Athens and then we drove, various little ferries from a place on the mainland to Corfu. And we spent three nice days in Corfu and then on to Brindisi and we drove up the east coast of Italy to, past Venice and up to almost before you cross the St Bernard’s, St Bernard’s pass. There was no tunnels in those days. And that’s how we got home for a series of ferries and arriving home and we still had our place in Doncaster and we sort of tried to settle down as civilians, which was rather strange because when you become a civilian after thirty-five years of air force service you, you feel you’ve lacked that sort of cushion, that cocoon. You’re cocooned in a, in a sort of safe situation in the services and you’ve got to, you’re out in to the big, big world out there to try and make a living. Well I started off by trying to sell insurance from door to door and I got blown out of many a place and without selling anything. And so that turned out to be a dead loss and we tried looking around for a post office and we found one in York. We actually had bought a property now, a new bungalow in York which was very nice. And we ran this post office for, oh I guess about three or four months, and we were going to buy it from the present owner and he must have fallen foul of the head post master of York because he said that, ‘If you sell that,’ he said, ‘I’ll close it down.’ And so we couldn’t, we couldn’t have that and I settled into an insurance office job which wasn’t very exciting. Now, some member of the family was doing a course at Kidlington Airport near Oxford and he said, ‘Donald, why don’t you get yourself down there and get a commercial licence and they want you as a flying instructor,’ and I did just that. It took me about three months and I finished up as a commercial flying instructor on the Oxford Air Training School. And there I did fourteen years and trained many pilots for the commercial airlines, British Airways included, Aer Lingus, British Midland, Singapore Airlines and many others. And it was very enjoyable and rewarding. The, the ones I didn’t have much joy with were the Algerians. They were a bit of a peculiar lot but, however I retired then after fourteen years and I still went on flying at RAF Halton, where my service life started of course in 1939. So I joined the Microlight Flying Club and they immediately enrolled me as their chief flying instructor so I did a bit more instructing on microlights, and not the weight shift, I wouldn’t fly those. These microlights were proper stick and rudder aircraft and so on. And so I was happy with that, and it just so happened I trained a couple of air marshals. They came through and wanted checking out on microlights so, so I flew with them and a very nice situation. And I went on flying those until I was eighty four and then I thought well I’ve just about had enough. I think I’ll. I’ll give it up now, the flying, and so I haven’t flown since and we are now in 2017. So, so, [laughs] right. However I’ve had a very, very enjoyable flying career and I’ve got a lot, a lot to be thankful for. So that’s the end of my little broadcast. Thank you.
SJ: So did you have any, in all the times you were flying, did you have any lucky mascots or superstitions.
DB: Oh well no, not really. I tend, you tend to sort of get into a habit so that you know if you do something — I can’t give you a quote somehow I can’t sort of think of much that, that would, would do it. But I think you know you make preparations. It doesn’t matter what sort of flight you do you’ve got to prepare for it and otherwise you know if you just go leaping off without checking anything. Now, you see some of the material I could give the people who are coming after this. I’ve got one that the BBC did on me. They came out to Halton and checked. I mean I don’t want to waste time now showing it to you. I could, it only runs for about three minutes anyway but it was on BBC South Today and Geraldine Peers have you, do you remember her?
SJ: Yeah. Know her.
DB: She started, she introduced it and there was Jeremy Stern did the interview.
PJ: You’re quite a celebrity then Donald.
DB: Oh yeah. Well, I was at the time.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: I don’t think many people would remember it but the, and then they edited it and Frank Sinatra, “Come Fly With Me,” you know, it sounds, it sounds quite good and you see me take off in the latest microlight. It was a lovely craft called the Sky Ranger.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And I mean we, my brother Malcolm helped to build it. He did all the instrument layout of that. You’ve flown in that with me haven’t you?
AK: Yes.
DB: No, you flew in -
AK: I flew with my head down.
DB: I’ve forgotten. That was the Thruster we flew in.
AK: Oh right.
DB: I don’t think you ever flew in that Sky Ranger. No.
AK: And never again.
DB: Oh I taught you. I gave you a potted flying lesson Ann.
AK: Yes. For free.
DB: Yeah. All for free. So -
PJ: When you were in the Pathfinders.
DB: Right.
PJ: To get in to the Pathfinders were you told that you were going in the Pathfinders? Were you transferred or did you volunteer because I’m not sure?
DB: No. The way it worked, Peter is that I, like a bunch of other guys that had passed out from St Athan as flight engineers we all had to obviously go on to bombers or transport. Some of them even went on to Sunderland Flying Boats and Coastal Command and so on. However, I, we all went on parade and there was the crews, crews that were going to do the course were six people. There was the pilot, navigator and bomb aimer, the wireless operator and two gunners. Six people. All we were shirt of, short of was a flight engineer. So Bill Neal strode up and down, and I don’t know what it was but he just caught my attention and I sort of nodded and he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Tell me about yourself.’ So I said, he said, ‘Have you done any flying?’ I said, ‘Well yeah a few with air tests, you know, flying in Wellingtons and that sort of thing on air tests but not, not all that many hours,’ but so, and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’re probably just the chap we’re looking for. Do you want to come and fly with us?’ So I said, ‘Well, yeah. Thank you,’ and he said, ‘We’ve all done a tour of ops so experienced crew and he, ‘cause he’d been instructing down at Harwell. There was an OCU at Harwell and Hampstead Norris was their satellite and so on. Bill Neal this was. So anyway and he said, ‘By the way,’ he said, ‘We’re not going to the main force.’ That would have been 1 Group or 3 Group. He said, ‘We’re going to Pathfinders.’ 8 Group and he said, so I said, ‘I don’t know. I’m not the wiser,’ I said, ‘Tell me about it,’ ‘Well,’ he said, and then he went on to describe, you know we, we will be doing this that and the other and helping to mark, find the targets. Good navigator and we did have a good navigator and find targets first and then mark them or help the master bomber to mark them. But when that first crew had done a tour they all left and we got, not all of them, sorry, the two gunners left and the navigator, that’s the first, what we would call the plotter, not the H2S operator, George Hodges, he stayed with us. Johnny Carrod, the radio, the wireless operator, he stayed, and so we had to find two gunners and a new navigator. Now, the gunners we were lucky, because there was a guy called Eric Chamberlain and he had hawk eyes. He could see in the dark this guy. He could honestly. His night vision was amazing. He could, he would see the night fighter before the night fighter saw us. And then, but the Canadian, the navigator was a Canadian flight sergeant and he was thrown in at the deep end. He had no operational experience at all and the first, he got us lost on the first trip! And I had to get them out, Bill Neal thrust a map in my hands and I said, I said, ‘I’m not,’ it was at night I said, ‘I’m not ruddy good at map reading,’ [laughs] But it so happened that we were running up on the, what they called the Frisian islands, the Dutch islands and there was one in particular that I recognised that was the shape on the map. And I was able to give him a pinpoint on that and actually the target was up in Northern Denmark. Well it was German occupied of course as you know but, and that’s how he, but he improved and he wasn’t bad, you know later on. His name was Archer, and I can never remember his first name but he was a young Canadian. Yeah.
PJ: Did you stay in touch with the crew after the war? Any of your crew members?
DB: Just, just Bill Neal I’m afraid. Johnny Carrod died fairly young and his house was burgled and he lost his DFC. That was stolen. And you know you can buy the odd whatever it is like theatre replica or something.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: But -
PJ: No.
DB: It’s not the same as the original. I was going to get mine to show you.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And [coughs] excuse me. But George Hodges, he, he, er, I spoke to him on the phone but I never actually saw him because he never attended our reunions did George so, and that was it really. I lost touch with all of them really.
PJ: Did you -
DB: Except Bill Neal.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Bill Neal and I met at the Hendon museum. At the RAF Museum at Hendon and we had a full day touring around. Pictures taken near that Lancaster which says, “No enemy aircraft -
PJ: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Shall penetrate German airspace.”
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Old Goering you see.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And we had our pictures taken with that.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And all the hundred odd bombs on the side, you know, painted on.
PJ: Is it, is it a fallacy you all, that the whole crew stuck together and when you went out you all went together to the pub? Is that - ?
DB: More or less oh -
PJ: A fallacy? Because -
DB: Somewhere I’ve got a picture of my first car which was a little Austin seven tourer and I bought that from a Canadian who was finished his ops and was off back to Canada. And I bought that car for thirty-five quid and it was a tiny little two seater really but people used to sort of get, we had the whole crew on that [laughs]. Can you imagine the springs [laughs].
PJ: Brilliant.
DB: And to start it all you had was just a blade. You could start it with a screwdriver.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And I had the keys in my pocket and I parked outside the pub and when I went outside it was gone. Somebody had stolen it and they’d obviously had a blade of some sort, a knife maybe and just turned the thing and started the engine and away and they stole it. But it was found abandoned up near the airfield, near Upwood main gates or somewhere. Rotten devils.
SJ: You said that the red markers were blind markers. They had green markers as well.
DB: Oh yes.
SJ: What were green markers for?
DB: Yeah. The green markers were what we called backers up and we dropped some of those but you dropped them on mixed reds and greens. Mixed reds and greens were dropped by the master bomber and the primary visual marker. And they actually had identified the target visually by this time but TIs didn’t last forever. They needed backing up you see and so we, we were able to back them up by dropping just the greens on their own. Now 156 were basically a blind marker squadron so if that master bomber had got to the target but he wasn’t happy with the actual identifying the aiming point, he would call for blind marking. And this is where George Hodges on his H2S would drop the reds, red TIs. But when I was down the front on the bomb sight if mixed reds and greens were going down then I would go click, click, click, click and deselect the markers and just drop HE. We became really like main force and I would just, just drop the bombs on, on the markers that were already, but that was, that was what the three things and they called this a Parramatta. Bennett had his own various names for the -
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And the, we even had sky markers. Where the, if the, if the target was obscured by a thin layer of cloud or something like that they used to drop what they called sky marker flares. They would go off more or less the same or just a couple of thousand feet below the height of the bomber stream but there was one thing about an air, an air, a sky marker and that is if that’s the target and let’s say this is the blind marker, you had to bomb on an exact heading because if you didn’t, if you came in on a heading like that, and you dropped there you would, you might have this in your sights but the bombs would fall over that side, over there. So you had to be, you had to run in on an actual precise heading when you bombed on sky markers. And that was another thing that, but we only had to drop them a couple of times that I can remember. George Hodges having to drop sky markers. But they had, I know that Bennett, he went around his office and he said something about, he was asking various people what they would call a certain attack you see. I think the Parramatta one that he decided was by a New Zealander. It sounded a little bit New Zealandish that. And there was another one. What was the other one? That — he asked this young WAAF clerk, and she gave him a name and that’s what he called, what was it? That was the overall sort of marking plan. I can’t remember the name. It’s so long ago now but yeah that’s that was what Bennett did. And he used to come around and visit you know after, not every, but he used to get around a lot of the bomber stations and he came to Upwood to the debriefing, he was there for debriefing. And he always used to ask you, you know, ‘Who dropped the bombs?’ And, ‘Did you see the target?’ And did you do this, that and the other? And I used to try and give him the best idea that, that I could. He was always quite approachable you know. Bennett. And then another night he’d be down at Graveley, you see, debriefing them from 35 Squadron and all these other path — Oakington was a Pathfinder station you see. Little Staughton, that was another one, and as I say I’ve got a list of them upstairs. Can you think of anything else?
SJ: No I think you’ve covered it.
DB: Have I?
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Well I hope I haven’t bored you stiff and just before you go come and look at this big picture I was telling you about and you’re welcome to come out.
PJ: Anyway, Donald.
DB: Sorry.
PJ: On behalf of the IBCC -
DB: Yes.
PJ: I’d like to thank you for allowing us to interview you. Thank you.
DB: Alright. Right. Right. Ok. Did you want, have you recorded that?
PJ: Yes.
DB: Oh.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Donald Briggs
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Briggs was born in Lealholm near Whitby in Yorkshire. After school, he became an apprentice with the Royal Air Force. He trained at RAF Halton in 1939 and became an engine fitter working on Wellingtons and Manchesters. He volunteered for air crew in 1943, qualified as a flight engineer and completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders at RAF Upwood. After the war he retrained as a pilot and took part in the H bomb tests at Christmas Island. Later he became a flying instructor and trained aircrew to fly Vulcans. After he retired from the Royal Air Force he became a commercial flying instructor. He continued to instruct and fly microlights until he was eighty-four years of age.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pete Jones
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:08:42 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABriggsDW170327
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-27
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
France
Germany
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Christmas Island
United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1943
1944
1945
1957-06-19
156 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Harvard
Lancaster
Lincoln
Manchester
Master Bomber
Meteor
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
pilot
promotion
RAF Halton
RAF Upwood
target indicator
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/150/1567/LBellinghamPF1397635v1.2.pdf
1fbc8b7942f76eed3db897aeedc910f4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bellingham, Peter
Peter F Bellingham
Peter Bellingham
P F Bellingham
P Bellingham
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Peter Frederick Bellingham (b. 1923, 1391638 Royal Air Force), a photograph and his log book. Peter Bellingham trained in South Africa as a bomb aimer and flew 30 Special Operations Executive operations in Halifaxes and Stirlings with 138 Squadron from RAF Tempsford.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Peter Bellingham and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bellingham, PF
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Peter Bellingham’s observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
The log book covers the training and operational career of bomb aimer Peter Bellingham from 10 March 1943 to 21 February 1946. After training in South Africa he flew Halifaxes and Stirlings with 138 Squadron, taking part in 30 night operations over Denmark, France, Germany, and Norway. These were special operations involving the dropping of containers, packages and pigeons to agents, outcome logged either as ‘Joy’ or ‘No joy’. His pilots on operations were Strathearn and Flight Lieutenant Moffat. Landed with FIDO once, did a Cook’s tour over the Netherlands and Germany before becoming an instructor. Aircraft flown included: Oxford, Anson, Wellington, Stirling, Halifax and Warwick.
Creator
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Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
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One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LBellinghamPF1397635v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
1944-07-03
1944-07-04
1944-07-05
1944-07-07
1944-07-08
1944-07-09
1944-07-10
1944-07-11
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-27
1944-07-28
1944-07-30
1944-07-31
1944-08-04
1944-08-05
1944-08-06
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-09
1944-08-10
1944-08-11
1944-08-12
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-09-28
1944-09-29
1944-09-30
1944-10-01
1944-10-04
1944-10-05
1944-10-15
1944-10-16
1944-11-01
1944-11-02
1944-11-07
1944-11-08
1944-11-26
1944-11-27
1944-11-29
1944-11-30
1944-12-24
1944-12-25
1945-02-21
1945-02-22
1945-02-23
1945-02-25
1945-02-26
1945-02-27
1945-03-04
1945-03-05
1945-06-19
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Denmark
France
Germany
Great Britain
Norway
South Africa
England--Bedfordshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
South Africa--Port Elizabeth
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
11 OTU
138 Squadron
1657 HCU
17 OTU
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
animal
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
Cook’s tour
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
RAF Manby
RAF Oakley
RAF Silverstone
RAF Tempsford
RAF Turweston
RAF Westcott
RAF Woodbridge
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/125/2480/PBaggJG1602.1.jpg
fc588435640eb081dc7c9ea25e2e7a3f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/125/2480/ABaggJG160902.1.mp3
66e2a38c2f9d559f89ab20b610d08c80
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bagg, John
John Bagg
J G Bagg
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. An oral history interview with Leading Aircraftsman John Garrett Bagg (b.1920, 1475631 Royal Air Force) and 11 photographs. John Bagg trained as an instrument mechanic before re-mustering as photographer. He served at RAF Finningley, RAF Bircotes, RAF Whitchurch and RAF Sleap.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Bagg and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM. This is Anne Moody and it is Friday the 2nd of September 2016 and today I am with John Bagg in Royston which is in Barnsley and I have also got with us Gary who may chip in now and again. I want to ask John, you told me you were born in 1920, where ?
JB. In this house, I have lived here all my life.
AM. Crickey, ninety five years.
JB. My Grandfather took it on then, my Mother took it over and then I took it over and I want to be carried out from here.
AM. You are not moving anywhere else?
JB. Only to my back Garden, it keeps me occupied.
AM. So did you have any Brothers or Sisters?
JB. Two Brothers both were in the Services, one was in the Army and the other was a Ferry Pilot, he transported Liberator Bombers from manufactures in Canada all over the World. Down South Australian to Caucasus Islands, that was his job.
AM. What did your Parents do John, what did your Dad do?
JB. Not very much because the jobs were scarce,and my Father eventually, because he was a Shell worker and when the owner stopped he was out of work. He managed to get a job at the Colliery, a poor job on the screens which wasn’t very nice.
AM. On the screens, what does that mean ?
JB. He was screening the coal in the dust and everything. It affected his chest so he had to go off work and I was at Normanton Grammar School in those days and I left at sixteen and managed to get a job at the [unreadable]
AM. That is unusual because quite a lot left at fourteen didn’t they?
JB. Not at the Grammar School, and the [unreadable] and I stayed there till I got my call up.
AM. So what did you do, what was your job?
JB. Just general clerical work, anything, poor jobs in those days.
AM. So you got your call up, at eighteen?
JB. At twenty, twentieth birthday you were expected to register and you registered each month after that, you had no option.
AM. So what did that mean?
JB. You could volunteer before that if you wished.
AM. So when you got your call up, what was that like?
JB. I had to go to Barnsley for an interview to try and assess you for what they put you into sort of thing, and I didn’t want to go in the Army and the chappy asked me questions, “what’s your interests?” and I was always interested in like I used to make my own crystal sets, radios and with headphones, and he asked me all this and he said ok. Then I got the word that I would be in the Royal Air Force as an instrument repairer which suited me fine and I thought what a great opportunity this is because there was nothing, nothing around here really, not the good jobs, nothing like that, and that was my call up in May nineteen.
AM. May nineteen forty.
Gary. Forty One.
JB. Forty One to go to Melcham, got a train from Ralston to Sheffield where I say two or three lads all going to the same places, you know there were masses of people travelling in those days being called up.
AM. How far had you been before that though?
JB. Not very far at all, been to Scarborough day trip, I remember paddling in the sea. Been not very far at all and been to Leeds, I’ve been to Leeds and Sheffield.
AM. So you got the train to Sheffield and you saw the other lads.
JB. Went up to two lads, where you going and they were going to Melcham same as me, and you know I have kept in contact with those two lads until they both died, one died just recently and one a few years ago, they are both [Unreadable] Barnsley lads.
AM. OK so we are going to start this recording we had a minor mishap, the batteries went flat but we will just carry on the story from where John got to. We have just got off the train, changed at Bristol and we have just got off the train at Melcham with hoards and hoards of other people who have been called up.
JB. The Military Police, so they shepherded us into buses and things into the Camp into a massive hanger and it was all portioned off, bedspaces, I was given a bed space. First thing was take your clothes off, not first thing, sorry. Get measured for your uniform, you went to the counter, there was a chap there he just said, “tunic, size off” and so on, he never measured you the sizes, you got all your kit, he did ask you size of big boots. Then you went and changed, the first thing then you parcelled your own civvy clothes up and sent them back home, you were in then.
AM. What did you get in the way of uniform then, what did you get ?
JB. Two tunics, two pair of trousers, pants, vests, socks and they were all course in those days, and the boots because most people had never worn boots, mainly shoes, but you had to get used to the boots.
AM. So what do you mean ankle boot do you mean?So just above the ankle.
JB. More or less like and I think they left you alone until the next morning.
AM. So you said it was a hanger with all the bed spaces, how many beds ?
JB. God knows, massive.
AM. And no privacy or anything, what was that like.
JB. I think the next day or two they did sort it out with a hut to live in.
AM. So what was it like sleeping in a massive dormitory like that then?
JB. I can’t describe it really going from home to that, you got talking and laughing and things like that.
AM. And it’s all men of course,there is no women there.
JB. And of course in the next day or two you were assigned to a hut and then there were medicals and God knows what.
AM. I don’t know if I dare ask you to describe the medical, go on describe it for me.
JB. Line up and pants down [unreadable].
AM. What does that mean ?
JB. Well looking at everybody, I didn’t see them turf anybody out. I suppose it was for disease and had to do. The inoculation I don’t know how many of those.
AM. And you are just all in a line waiting for you jabs.
JB. The bigger men seemed to pass out more than the others a lot of men passed out at the thought of inoculations you would be surprised.
AM. Why would that be, because they weren’t used to that sort of thing because now as kids you just get used to that sort of thing, don’t you. They literally passed out?
JB. Yes, eventually you got settled in and there is a Corporal at the end of each hut in a little private thing, there is a tannoy which in the morning said wakey wakey and by God if you weren’t out of bed in five minutes the Corporal would be out and he would tip the bed over.
AM. How many men to a hut?
JB. Not too many about fifteen or sixteen at a guess.
AM. What in an open space?
JB. I got one somewhere in here.
AM. We will have a look at it in a bit.
JB. Outside and Parade then, it was about seven in the morning, PE basically then off to the cookhouse for you breakfast. There was a mad stampede, everybody, I was always the last,I couldn’t run as fast as them others for you breakfast.
AM. What did you get for breakfast?
JB. The usual, sausage, beans,bacon.
AM. Well you say the usual, but had rationing started by then, I can’t, I’m not sure?
JB. There was eh, I don’t think we had cereal or anything like that, I can’t really remember now.
AM. But you definitely remember sausage and bacon?
JB. At one place I regularly had kippers and nobody liked kippers but I loved kippers. When the asked any extras, anybody want any extra, I was always there, I love my kippers [laugh].We then started on the drills and the marching and got down on the square you know.
AM. So at this point it is just learning to be a serviceman, rather than any specific thing. How many were there at the….
JB. We were farmed out then we didn’t get a hut, into bell tents outside and it was a scorching month during that year, scorcher. We did all the exercising and everything outside it was marvellous, they got us marching up and down the square.
AM. Did you enjoy it then, because you described it as marvellous so?
JB. There was a lot of Camaraderie between you.
AM. And you still were a very young man?
JB. There were older people mixed in all in that intake, mm, and marching and marching and marching up and down the square. You got assault courses you know bayonet charging you made fun of it in a way,you know charging up and down, shouting, and bayoneting these sacks. If ever you got to do it, I don’t know how you would do it. You know.
AM. In real life when blood comes out.
JB. And the assault courses, I was one of the smallest there but I kept up with them. Then eventually [pause] where am I ? Eventually after all this training there was no vacancy for a course at the moment, so they farmed you out all over the place to wait for your call up. I was going to show you this, the first place I went to, was unbelievable [rustle of paper] to Norfolk, place called Pulham in Norfolk, that was then but the hanger was.
AM. John is showing me a picture of a Zeppelin and a massive hanger in Pulham?
JB.Pulham in Norfolk.
AM. So that’s where you were sent so what did you do there then?
JB. General duties, it was a massive scrap yard, sort of thing apart from one industry that was there was filling small bombs, packing them all in big boxes and take them to the station for distribution. They had a massive danger area with a little railway all round it and masses of boxes for these bombs to pack in, fill and empty and so on.
AM. Was it dangerous, did they have any accidents?
JB. No not that I know of, you couldn’t go in without handing in your cigarettes and things like that. You got a little train round to where you went to. Not much work to do there, there were only about fifty people there I think, fifty probably and it was just a fill in.Then, massive you couldn’t believe the size of that Hanger.
AM. So what happened then at the end of that then?
JB. You got your call up for your Instrument Repairers Course, its back to Melcham then, its all right [unreadable] all the time and then we went on the course for the cameras’, for the instruments.
AM. For the Instruments. How long was the course.
JB. Three months, it wasn’t much use to me because at the end of the course they asked for volunteers for a special camera course. On cameras’ and things like that, so I’ve always been interested so I put my hand up. I never did inspections on instruments I was always on cameras after that.a
AM. Did you learn anything about instruments or did you already know it from?
JB. I passed the Trade Test, everything but I never actually did the work.
AM. So what sparked the interest in cameras’ as I gather there wouldn’t be a lot around at that time?
JB. I worked with these massive cameras’ you know, massive cameras’
AM. Give me an idea of what size?
JB.Stood about nigh high.
AM.So we are talking about a foot high.
JB.With different lenses.
Gary. These are the ones that fitted in aeroplanes.
JB. Some were for daylight and some for night work and they had special shutters and they were all radio, electrically controlled from controllers and things like that, control [unreadable] six volt.
AM. So did you have to do another course to learn how to use that?
JB. Oh yes, that was at Halton that, which was the college.In the Winter.
AM.Near Andover.
JB. I really liked that, the cameras’ and controls and things and after that, that was near Christmas and they couldn’t find us a station at the time. So they said go home and we’ll call you when your unit is home for Christmas and we said ok. In other days when talking to people the used to say, get posted to Finningley, get to Finningley, they have chicken every Christmas. When my posting came it was to Finningley, I couldn’t believe it.
AM. Did this come through the post?
JB. Yes, report to Finningley on such and such a date. It was true chicken for every dinner for Christmas, every dinner, a marvellous place that. I didn’t remain there long because they were opening a satellite, a smaller Station at Bircotes near Bawtry and I got sent there. It was just a pile of mud when we got there, not much to do at the moment, at the time of course it wasn’t equipped or anything.
AM. Just before we go to Bawtry tell me about Finningley, what did you actually do, what did you do there?
JB On Cameras’ introduced to the Photographic Section, you were attached to the Photographic Section not to the Instrument Section, and they showed me round a mock up of all the controls working. They were all flexible drives, motor driven and everything and how to work it and instruction books and things like that.
AM. So what was your job on them, what were you doing?
JB. Servicing the cameras’ There were some cameras’ like gun cameras’ which were fitted in the machine gun turrets, you got one camera and three or four machine guns synchronised on operations with the firing of the guns.With all film, little small film going through.
GARY.Were you actually taking them out of the aircraft or were you fitting them.
JB. No we were fitting them.
GARY.Fitting them into the aircraft.
JB. Same with the big cameras’ they weren’t left in the aircraft.
GARY. So what aircraft did you start working on?
JB. At Finningley they were Hampdens, they used to call them flying coffins, [laugh] I don’t know if I should say it they were horrible aircraft and then we soon turned over to Wellingtons.
GARY. Then was it Stirlings’ after that?
JB. No I never went on Stirlings’ no, later on at one stage they did get a Stirling to try but the system couldn’t take it they were massive things these Stirlings. I’ve got one photograph in there, Stirling.
AM. Yeah we’ll come to that. So you were literally fitting them in, fitting the cameras’ in, taking them out. Who took the film out? What happened to the film?
JB. Massive, films about that wide.
AM. So we are talking about six inches something like that.
JB. Some of them are taken, I want to show you.
AM. Yeah we will have a look of those in a minute.
JB. That was the size of them, that was the film size.
AM. Right so it was about six inches.
JB. There were hundreds of exposures you know they were massive.
AM. So we are back on again, we have just been talking to Johns’ Wife and we have switched the recorder on. So John has just been telling us about the working on the aircraft and the cameras’ so tell me a bit more about that then.This is still at Finningley?
JB. Yes I didn’t remain there long. I was sent to Bircotes.
AM. Tell me about that then?
JB. They was just starting up, we had to wait for aircraft being allocated to us first of. Then it got working then em, It was my first really working, fitting the cameras’ I had only been under instruction mainly at Finningley and then we had to go out together, the vehicle took us for transport. You might have six or seven lined up that day, six or seven sets, controllers and everything, might have electric motors. Suppose I had to service everything and controls and electric motor to do. It was our job to fit them in the aircraft all ready, all ready for off, Bomb Aimer had them.
AM. Yes because there was the one that automatically went off when the bombs were dropped.
JB. Yes and there are different cameras’ I say, some were for night flying, taking photographs at night, synchronising those big bomb
GARY.Were there a timer when the bombs were released, a time for starting to take photographs?
JB. They had to judge the height and speed and all this on this timer, you see.
AM. So did you set the timer?
JB. No the Bomb Aimer set the timer.
AM. The Bomb Aimer set the timer.
JB. The heights and things and it were on the shutters, so many seconds before the flash was expected to explode. Then it went, I think the flash operated it to close it. What we did when we was on training where I was, all mine was on training not Operations, they had infra red lights on certain buildings, there was one on the Menai Bridge and some in Churches and they were sent out at night to sort of Bomb this place and if they bombed it they got the infra red signal back.
AM. So not literally Bomb it [Unreadable through interruptions]
JB. They were bombing it and the flash would go off, they should get this infra red light on the thing itself you see to show that they hit it. Of course many of them didn’t.
AM. Who taught them to use the camera, who taught the Bomb Aimer to use the camera?
JB. I suppose I was in their training their briefing. It was funny, one place I was on if you were on like, picket duty might be about six month, eight month you were watching around for fires, something like that. You would get a book, some of the Aircrew might get an early call if they were flying off at seven o’ clock, and you’d get a book with the names on, hut so and so bed number so and so and you would go into this hut and find this, you can imagine me go up to this bloke and say are you Sergeant so and so, sign this [laugh]. It used to be comical, sign this, he would be signing to say that you called him.
AM. So it wasn’t your fault if he didn’t turn up.
JB. It must have been Operations when they went away and some of them didn’t come back, on Operations.
AM. Did you get to know the Aircrew then?
JB. Not really no, because they were changing very rapidly. They went to our place and then they would go somewhere else for different training.
AM. I am interested in the cameras’ who, what, who manufactured the cameras’ what make were they?
JB. I don’t know, I don’t know.
AM. So not like a massive company like Kodak or anything like that?
JB. No No. I haven’t any photos of them at all.
AM.So you’d go to the aircraft and fit it, the Bomb Aimer, you would make sure there was a film in it and all the rest of it.
JB. Then when they came back
AM.[interruption] that was going to be the next question, off they went then when they came back what did you do then?
JB. Well you had to take the things off, for the film, the things the film was in and they went to the photographic department for processing.
AM. So you took the film off and you took it up to the…
JB. We worked in the photographic department, it was where I worked sort of thing. I had nothing to do with that side of it but I was in with it. I use to go in watching and the massive films that used to come out you know, massive and the machines to process them.
GARY. How long did you stay there for John, you know you left Finningley?
JB. Left Finningley, went to Bircotes.
GARY. How long were you at Bircotes for?
JB. Not very long at all, oh ah, probably about twelve months and then I got a call sending to Whitchurch in Shropshire, which eh that hadn’t been opened up very long. They were all new places I managed, they were setting up you see. I eh I really loved it there in Shropshire.
GARY. And that was an Operational Training Unit?
JB. They were all Operational Training Units.
AM. You said you really loved it what, what was it you really?
JB. The people that you worked with they were marvellous, some, I know one chap he was a very wealthy chap at least he told us he was and he used to play with one of the big bands in London. Harry Roy of something you remember in those days [little stutters] His Father was a Colonel or something as well, a real mixture.
AM. What did you do on your days off?
JB. Eventually I took my bike with me.
AM. Push bike or Motor bike.
JB. Push bike, I took it with me wherever I would go and I used to go out on my days off, round Shropshire, nearly every road in Shropshire.Went up into Cheshire and all over the place. I never lounged about on my days off. I hadn’t been there long when they was, is that Sleap? They was opening a Satellite at Sleap and I was posted there to start it up.
AM. Sleap is SLEAP Sleap Airfield.
JB. Sleap.
GARY. Was you there when the aircraft hit the Control Tower?
JB. No, no. but I was there when there was a Squadron of American Flying Fortresses, they couldn’t land where they were going so they were coming to Sleap to land in an emergency and bye you never seen them land like it. I mean I was, it was one off, one down, clear the runway before another one could land, whoosh one after the other like lightning, not a space between them.
GARY. But they would have been returning from Operations.
JB. Yeah.
AM. Did you get to go on one?
JB. No, oh no there were Guards round straight away, Guards round straight away. They was off next morning, you couldn’t see anything but it was unbelievable the way they landed.
AM. Its stuck in your mind.
AM. Going back to the Cameras then you said that worked on Hamden’s and you worked on Wellingtons did you stick with Wellingtons.
JB. Yes mostly Wellingtons, I don’t know if it was Sleap or [unreadable] where they didn’t get a Stirling, I think the ground wasn’t solid. They were so big the Stirling, massive, there is a photograph there somewhere and me stood under it.
GARY. We are looking at a small photograph of a large Stirling with one man underneath.
JB. No that’s not it.
GARY. It says on the back, Stirling, Heavy Bomber, me standing in front of the wheel.
JB. It must be me then. [laugh] massive. One thing about the Wellington.
GARY. Just getting a photo of a Wellington.
JB. To get in there was an entrance there and you can see there was a little ladder there. Most of them where I was never landed at all.
AM. And the entrance is just underneath the fuselage ?
JB. Yes just there, there was a trap door that flew up and you had to get in, you had to get hold and pull yourself up.
AM. What with the camera.
JB. No put the cameras in first and get, I never saw a ladder all the time I was there and I wasn’t very big but I managed like everybody else eventually pulled myself into it. That’s where I got me muscles from.
AM. [Laugh] So where next after Sleap?
JB. Ah well I was at Sleap when the War finished actually, then it was a case of they were trying to close it down quite quickly I think. There were a lot of them and they sent me to Oakington near Cambridge and I had to confess I never done a Daily Inspection on instruments in my life and they wouldn’t believe it, I hadn’t honestly. All my work was on cameras and I was the only person on the Station that could really that had had the course on it as to what it does and that. Normally used to get instructions for modifications I had nobody to ask because nobody knew about them but I had to be taught by myself then, but I really enjoyed my life and [unreadable] know particularly [laugh].
AM. How long were you there before you were demobbed they.
JB. Laterally I used to run the little Cinema, they had a little Cinema a little 16mm projector and a screen in the dining room at the end of the dining room. Used to get new films, you know proper films the would show to or three nights a week. I used to run that with two other people there were three of us used to run that.
GARY. So when was you demobbed John, when was you demobbed?
JB. I was demobbed, oh going back to, I went to Oakington eh [garbled] Not long after that they sent for me in the Orderly Romm and they said your posted. I said thank the Lord for that. From there up to Kinloss, I thought who the,Kinloss. The war was over as well you know. I think they was trying to, didn’t know where to send you and I went from Oakington to London and a ticket to Kings Cross, a long journey.
AM. So what did you do in Kinloss?
JB. Nothing much they didn’t want me at Kinloss because they had finished and they sent me to their sort of Satellite which was Brackley and what it was they were taking all the aircraft, surplus and storing them there. There were hundreds of them.
AM. That’s spelt BRACKLA. So literally aircraft, old Bombers.
JB. It was a sort of Graveyard put it that way. As they came in from bringing the troops home from various areas, when they landed they brought the aircraft there just for storage. We just took sort of things, valuable things out of them and shoved them all in the corner.
AM. What sort of aircraft were they?
JB. All types of Aircrew.
GARY. A Graveyard of Aircraft.
AM. I am just looking at something John has just given me. Including a hundred Halifax Bombers some straight from the factory, and we have got a picture of them.
JB. It was just a Graveyard for destruction, no we just parked them up and that was it. Spent our time playing football, got nothing to do.
AM. You didn’t even have to take the cameras out of them.
JB. No,no they had already been taken out I suppose.
AM. So how many of you were there, how many of you playing football and not very much?
JB. There weren’t very many at all, I think it was just a place to fill in.
AM. How long were you there for?
JB. About eight or nine months and I’d taken my bike with me which I rode every Sunday. I cycled all round Loch Ness and all of the Mountains. I had a marvellous time there, you could do what you wanted.
AM. Who was in charge?
JB. And I was there when my Father died actually and they sent for me in the Morning and told me and a Warrant home just like that. Come back when you want sort of thing. I think they were glad to get a few people out of the way, you know [pause] and there we are.
AM. So what eventually happened were you just demobbed and that was it.
JB. Yes went to Padgate for demob, pick your suit, trilby hat if you wanted one.
AM. Where was the suit from, was it Burtons, Montague Burtons?
JB. No they were there, you picked one out there. Masses of them.
AM. So what did you eventually get, a suit, a trilby?
JB. Shoes, everything I don’t know about shirts, I can’t remember that.
AM. And that was it.
JB. That was it, came home to a months leave and then you started a job and your job was guaranteed back at work. Or a job, if they couldn’t find your own job they were guaranteed to find you a job.
AM. And was your job open for you.
JB.Yeah, Yeah.
AM. So you went back there.
JB.Up to Monkton, up to Colliery.
AM. How long did you work there for, did you carry on with that or ..?
JB. Well I got moved to the Headquarters in Grimethorpe in Colliery eventually I left the Coal Board and went back to the Coal [unreadable] where I started as a lad.
AM. Tell me about your photography though, having learned how cameras work?
JB. We started a photographic business me and my wife taking weddings and things.
AM. Where did you meet your wife, when did you meet your wife?
JB. In Barnsley.
AM. After the War?
JB. After the War, the Cummin Ballroom in Barnsley.
AM. What year would that be?
JB. We got married in nineteen fifty three about two years before that about nineteen fifty.
AM. So well after the war then. So tell me about this photographic business then?
JB. It was just mouth to mouth sort of thing, photography was very scarce in those days, films and things like that and people couldn’t buy them, buy films.
AM. What sort of camera were you using. Was it still Box Brownies?
JB. No a reflex camera, you focussed [pause] and that’s mainly it.
AM. It’s interesting though, we have some fascinating photos hear and if John will allow me I will scan some of them because they will absolutely go with the story. Well that was great thank you.
JB. A place I was on, I can’t remember where it was, they used to go on leaflet raids to France and these were some of the leaflets they used to take to drop.
AM. When you say they used to go on, the plane..
JB. No the training.
AM. The Trainees.
JB. Bit tatty I’m afraid are these.
AM. So John has some of the original newspapers that were dropped, little newspapers, going to let me have a look. “review de la press libre”
JB. I don’t know what it is
AM. This ones dated the 29th of November 1942, fantastic. Gosh, so how did you get your mitts on these?
JB. They were at our place and I just had a few took a few.
AM. Brilliant, I am no sure if I can scan these, I might have to photo them instead but they are wonderful.
JB. That’s in German by the looks of it and when we were getting towards the end of the training and sent them on a leaflet raid.
AM. Yes that would have been one of the first pre Operations.
JB. They only went over France [unreadable] we were told they could look through and they could tell how the buildings were like in stereo. They could tell if there was a deep hole or things like that on things they had passed over.
AM. Just looking at some of these photos, so what’s that one then?
JB. Well that’s, that was a, that’s a corner of the cameras.
AM. So we have four lads who worked there on a motor bike and side car but with one of the cameras that John is talking about.
JB. We had a little van mainly, got my first driving license there.
AM. That’s the Graveyard.
JB. That’s the Graveyard and that’s me sat on the step there.
AM. Of a NAAFI Van with a cup of tea.
JB. I think it was the Salvation Army actually.
GARY. John can you remember how much you got paid?
JB. On training it was seven and a half pence a day.
GARY. I have seen one where you got two shillings a day which is ten pence.
JB. Yeah.
GARY. Can you remember up to the end of the War when you were a fully qualified Leading Aircraftsman?
JB. It was a lot better, I can’t remember now though.
GARY. It’s just curious.
AM. Is that you.
JB. Yes that’s in my workshop and those are the controllers for the cameras.
AM. And this is you working on…
JB. On something or another, I had the place all to myself, nobody bothered me.
AM. And there was literally only one of you on each Training Unit.
JB. Yes
AM. We’ve got you playing bowls here in Shropshire. What we also got from John are a number of photos of Cologne of Calne, bombed to smithereens basically and these would have been the photos from the cameras….. Gosh.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Bagg
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ABaggJG160902
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:46:49 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
John Bagg worked as a clerk before joining the Royal Air Force at the age of twenty. He was trained as an Instrument Mechanic before remustering and completing a specialist camera course. He went on to serve on several training stations. After the war he returned to his old job, but then went into business with his wife as a photographer.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
demobilisation
ground crew
ground personnel
Hampden
RAF Bawtry
RAF Brackla
RAF Finningley
RAF Halton
RAF Sleap
RAF Tilstock
Stirling
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/225/3370/AChaplinSR170407.2.mp3
a95468a013bf06283db41402714c4f41
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Chaplin, Susan Rose
Susan Chaplin
Susan R Chaplin
S R Chaplin
Sue Chaplin
S Chaplin
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Susan Chaplin (b. 1954) about her research into the crash of Wellington HE740 on 4 January 1945.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Chaplin, SR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Thursday, 7th April, 2017, and I am here in Thornton with Sue Chaplin who arranged for details to be made much more public and memorable about an air crash at North Marston nearby. So Sue what are your earliest recollections of life?
SC: I was born in North Marston where my mother and her brothers and sisters, and grandparents, great grandparents were all born, and my mother was always very very interested herself in local history and the stories of everyone so I was brought up surrounded by stories of village people and family and one of her stories was always about how she had witnessed this Wellington plane crashing in the war when she was twenty seven years old and she used to show me on our country walks the field where it came down and she always used said to me ‘there’s an engine deep down in that field you know may be one day it will be dug up’, so that’s how I grew up really with an interest in local history and the family and I’ve always had a very strong connection with North Marston where all of my family seem to take up most of the churchyard and so although I don’t live in the village anymore I have very strong connections there and my mother herself died nine years ago and my cousin still lives there so I’m going back there all the time and it’s really what led me to write back in 2014 to write the history of North Marston “The North Marston Story” which really I was prompted to do because I wanted to put down in writing all of those things that my mother had told me when I was a child, and then of course the book expanded in to far more than that in the end. I went to school in I went to Aylesbury High School er and after that I went to Teachers Training College at Wall Hall Aldenham for three years where I trained to be a teacher and then I went to the University of East Anglia after that and did a degree in history and education, so history has always been a great interest anyway and when I qualified I got a job at a school called Akeley Wood School which was a private school near Buckingham, er I got the job in 1976 and I thought it would be a stop gap for a few years until I got a different job. I had never been to a private school so it was nothing that I knew about so I thought well it would be a nice job just for a year or two but I actually stayed for my whole career and I was there for over thirty years ,and er I became head of the junior school there, and I retired in 2006 I took an early retirement in 2006.
CB: Okay we’ll stop there for a minute.
SC: In er about 2008 a gentleman came to live in North Marston who was a local historian, John Spargo, and in conversation with him one day he mentioned to me that he was surprised there was no written history of the village of North Marston as it was so rich in history, and I said to him ‘well I would absolutely love to help you put that down’ because as I mentioned just now it was something I’d always thought would be a good idea. So we decided to see if there would be um an interest in the village for a written history and we sent round a questionnaire and yes people would love it, so we started off by recording I offered to do all recordings of all the elderly people in the village and actually the not so elderly as well some of them were my old friends from school, and I did twenty three recordings including my mother, one of the recordings was also a chap called Chris Holden and Chris had been a little boy when the Wellington came and crashed and during his recording he was recollecting that night and he said ‘you know’ he said ‘I think it’s tragic there’s never been a memorial to those boys’ so I thought about this and coupled with my mother’s story of that night and finally by the fact the nearby village to me Thornborough erected a memorial in 2014 to the Wellington Bomber that crashed there all of those three things combined, so I went to the North Marston History Club which we had founded by then and said ‘how about it why not do a project the anniversary of the North Marston Wellington crash is coming up on 4th January 2015, that will be the seventieth anniversary, Thornborough had just put up one, Chris Holden had said in his interview what a shame so why don’t we go for it?’, it was agreed that we would then start to investigate the possibility of doing it this would have been the summer of 2014 when we started to think about it so we had about six months before the seventieth anniversary in January 2015 came up, obviously we had we wanted to put a memorial in the church so the first thing we had to do was approach the Vicar and the Faculty at Oxford to see if they would give permission, so the er church Parochial Church Council applied to Oxford for the Faculty that took quite a long time to come through, but we decided that we would go ahead with the memorial even if it couldn’t be put in the church because we would find somewhere for it in the village and obviously the next thing to do was to get going on finding out more and more and more about these boys. In our North Marston Story that we had written the big book about the village we had actually mentioned this crash, we knew the names of the six boys who’d died, we knew where they had come from, three were from New Zealand, one from Sussex, and two from Kent, so our next project was to try and trace any relatives that we could and my colleague in the history club Jane Springer started off by emailing the Otago Daily Times in New Zealand because we knew that two of the boys came from there, she had an instant response that day from the journalist from the Otago Daily Times and within a few days he had published our story, I sent him all the details we knew he published our story and that same day we had a response from Michael Reece who was the nephew of our pilot Michael Reece he had seen this in the paper, and we had a response from Chas Forsyth who had been a friend of the Reece’s he had seen this article in the paper, we had a response from dear Neville Selwood who was a Lancaster navigator who had been stationed at Westcott who knew Alex Bulger our bomb aimer, and we had a response from Alex Bulger’s family and that all took place within a few days. The biggest surprise at the time to us was that the Reece family and the Bulger family who had both lived all their lives in Otago knew each other but until we got in touch they hadn’t realised that their uncles had died in the same plane so that was just the most amazing thing and that was the first of many coincidences that were to happen, er so then they started to inundate us with photographs, letters that they’d had from their boys, photographs, photographs of the funerals in Oxford because five of the boys who died in the Wellington were buried at Botley in Oxford, the other one went home to Maidstone, but the Reece family in New Zealand had photographs of the burial and so they sent us photographs of the family of the boys, I mean to suddenly seeing photographs of these boys who my mother knew died that night, she by then had passed away, and it was of great sadness to me that my mother couldn’t see these photographs that suddenly came to us because she would have just loved to have seen the pictures of the boys who died. So we were suddenly starting to get information and we, Jane my colleague, went on to Ancestory.com and she was contacted by somebody who said I am a relative of Don McClellan the wireless operator, Don McClellan came from New Zealand but much further north, so she put us in touch with Don McClellan’s family so then we suddenly had photographs and information from the McClellan’s so we thought wow we’ve got enough stuff here to put out a little publication throughout the village let us put all these pictures into a little pamphlet and let’s send this round the village and tell everybody that this is our project and ask if we could have any contributions towards it. Well whilst we were doing this we then er decided that we would write to the Kent Messenger newspaper and the Brighton Argos and we had an immediate response from the Brighton Argos, somebody knew of our Reginald Price his name was in the memorial book in the St. Peters Church Brighton, we had a response from two people who read the Brighton Argos called Jackie and Nick Carter who were interested in tracing people they offered to help trace the other three British boys, they came up first of all with a relative that they had found from a free electoral um site of Mormon a family search Mormon site and free birth, marriage and death site, they came up with an address of a Christopher Colbeck who they believed was a nephew of John Wenham, I wrote to him actually wrote to him and yes he was John Wenham’s nephew and his mother John Wenham’s sister was still alive down the road in Luton, so suddenly we got John Wenham’s photographs, letters, documentation, that left us with Reginald Price and it left us with Ian Smith, then Reginald Price um suddenly started to appear because again from the Brighton Argos somebody who had read the Brighton Argos who again loved investigating went on to Ancestry.com and located a Catherine Cook who was a marine biologist in Scotland who was distantly related step step family distantly related to Reginald Price she put us in touch with her mother who had um you know was a step daughter of of a relative and we then had pictures from them that was Reginald Price ticked off. The only by now our doc out leaflet had gone round North Marston village and we had put in it that we didn’t actually have any pictures of er Ian Smith we couldn’t trace Ian Smith’s family, so the doc the leaflet went round North Marston we immediately started getting money in but the leaflet went in North Marston to a gentleman called Mike Fillamore, who again is a local historian, he saw the name Ian Smith he telephoned me and said ‘Sue a few years ago I was in North Marston Church and a gentleman was in the church looking to see if there was a memorial to a relative of his called Ian Smith and I happened to take down his name and address’ and so I telephoned I found on the internet his telephone number and I phoned him that night and he said ‘yes this is amazing’ um and so we then were put in touch with Ian Smith’s more immediate family and again the photographs started rolling in. So we had by well by November we had got pictures of all of the boys, documents, letters and we were in touch with their families and the money had started to roll in and in the end we er I had approached Brett and Sons the stonemasons in Norfolk who did a lot of the village churchyard gravestones, they um gave us a quote for um the actual plaque would have been um was going to be about fifteen hundred pounds in the church but in total our donations from the village people and from the families of the crew came to three thousand pounds so that enabled us to put up the plaque, Oxford Diocese said absolutely fine no problem, and so then we had money left over for a lovely reception and things like that. But um if I can just go back for a moment the er anniversary of the crash was 4th January, and the seventieth anniversary would have been 4th January 2015, but we didn’t have time to get together the Faculty permission to get the plaque done and to get a big service organised for 4th January, we also asked all the New Zealand relatives what they felt about it and all of them said they would absolutely love to come to the service but really January is too soon for us and we would rather come to England when the weather was a bit warmer, so we decided to have a remembrance service on 4th January 2015, which happened to be a Sunday, we put together a lovely service, we as history club wrote some of our own poems, the niece of Michael Reece the pilot, great niece of Michael Reece the pilot happened to live in Wales she said ‘I will come to this January service to represent the families’ and she read a poem at the service, we had the Last Post and it was a wonderful anniversary service followed by a lunch in the church so village people and a few RAF people who we knew and Tina Reece as the relative, and of course she wasn’t the only relative to come to our January service because all the Luton people, John Wenham the young air gunner his sister Joy in her nineties and her family all attended the January service so we had a lovely representation from families there, but we decided then that we needed to find a date to have the big plaque unveiling and the bigger service the New Zealand families suggested if it were possible what about having it on Anzac Day 25th April, it was a very special Anzac Day in 2015 and so we all you know went to the powers that be the church and everybody and it was decided to hold the big memorial on 25th April 2015, by which time the plaque in church would have been completed and we would have time to organise a big big celebration so that is where we’ve got to at the moment. We then decided that er obviously we would like some more representation at this service than we had at the other so I contacted the New Zealand Embassy in London and asked if we could possibly have any New Zealand er RAF people they said being Anzac Day they were a bit short on the ground, but as it happened a week before our service they phoned me and said we are sending six RA New Zealand Air Force, we also had very very honoured to have Air Marshall Sir Colin Terry who agreed to I wrote to him and he agreed to unveil the plaque, we had um members of the er cadets, we had from Maidstone in Kent where young John Wenham had been a boy and had attended the Scouts the Tovil Scouts came up and represented the Scouts they came, we had some local RAF reserve people, and we had our Church Warden um an ex RAF wing commander so he took a big part in the service, um the Royal British Legion of course were desperately keen to be involved and so we ended up with a procession involving um a lot of people all in uniform we had the Last Post we had um eight relatives from New Zealand that day at the service, and a huge coincidence again was that one of the New Zealand relatives was talking to one of the RAF New Zealand RAF and er she said ‘well my er son is a photographer in the RAF’ he said ‘what’s his name, ooh I know him’ so that’s amazing this lady had come from New Zealand and one of our New Zealand RAF boys knew knew her son so that was another little coincidence. So er we had well I say the most wonderful service the church was packed we had wonderful hymns we started off with “God is our Strength and Refuge” sung to the Dambusters tune and it was um a really really lovely service members of the history club all read poems and did readings, I introduced the whole service I set the scene and gave the whole background to it and er then afterwards we went down to the village hall where some local groups had set up memorabilia war time memorabilia, and er a local lady had set up a huge huge refreshments we had a cake with “Lest We Forget” and Joy Colbeck the ninety ninety two year old sister of the young air gunner er she cut the cake and all her family were there so I mean it was really absolutely marvellous, but we had decided before the er big celebration that really with all the photographs that we’d got and the documents er we really need to needed to write a proper book so John Spargo the chairman of the history club and I and two other people from the village, John Newby who was very interested in aircraft he had been er flying with the RAF in the RAF Volunteer Reserves and had had twenty five years in management per to the aviation industry he helped write all of the technical stuff about the plane, and Martin Bromelly who was a current airline pilot and again very very interested in airline history he investigated an awful lot for us, he found out the weather conditions that night, he wrote his own version of what he thought happened that night, so all of these us four basically put together this book with photographs all the photographs that we’d got plus um our interpretation of what actually happened that night and we sold over a hundred copies of the book and we put all the photographs from the day onto a DVD and sold I think about seventy or eighty of those.
CB: Having a break having a breather. So continuing from there.
SC: Um so following the service it it certainly wasn’t the end to everything because although it was coming up now for two years ago we are still in very close contact with the New Zealand families and the families of the British people we are getting emails from them every now and then with best wishes we have Christmas cards we have letters, Jane Springer my colleague who did a lot of the initial investigation with Ancestry.com, she and I have visited dear Joy Colbeck er the sister of the young air gunner John Wenham we visited her several times we visit her on her birthday she has been back to North Marston on several occasions so she has become very much a family friend, er we have been given gifts er um we’ve been given lovely pictures of Wellington aircraft and things like that, and not only have we learned about the six boys themselves but of course we’ve learned very much about their families and these New Zealand boys who had also had brothers in the air force, and Don McClellan whose brother was killed very tragically just before he died his he had also lost a brother on a POW ship that had been sunk by er um mistakenly by a British torpedo, so we learnt about all the tragedies in the families and how sad they’d been and we learnt how much it had meant to them all to lose these boys some of their descendants are named after their uncles and great uncles who died in the crash and the wireless operator Don McClellan his sister is still alive in New Zealand and she has had a picture of him on her wall ever since he died, Michael Reece the pilot his brother Jim is still alive in New Zealand, and of course Joy Colbeck is still alive and Ian Smith’s sister only died a couple of months before we started to do our investigation, so in fact it’s amazing that there are still siblings of these boys still around, it has brought the Colbeck family um John Wenham’s family who are called the Colbeck’s they had had a bit of a rift in the family and because of our investigation about John and they all came together for the service they have all been reunited. Also um dear Ed Andrews from Westcott showed me a photograph one day of a Wellington crew and he said ‘we don’t know who these people are in this picture’ but he gave me the photograph, well Neville Selwood the Lancaster pilot from the Lancaster navigator from New Zealand who was a friend of Alex Bulger who had been to Westcott also sent me a photograph of himself at Westcott and it was exactly the same photograph that Ed had given me so I could then contact Ed and say ‘I now know who this crew is’ and dear Neville Selwood he’s still going strong he writes to me frequently he sends me copies of all his log books, he is the honorary chaplain of the Royal New the New Zealand Bomber Command Association he’s the honorary chaplain and I get their magazines every quarter or every six months they send me their magazine and I believe Ed Andrews from Westcott writes in this magazine because um I’ve seen his articles, so having having um this contact with these people has been wonderful and I myself have found it really heart-warming, I spoke to Captain Jack Charley again who was a Lancaster navigator I believe had a long conversation with him so to to talk to these people is absolutely wonderful, and er as I say you know we’ve brought closure to the families and we have explained a lot to them that they didn’t actually know before they now know that it was North Marston not Long Marston, they’ve seen the site, they’ve seen the field and the actual spot where the plane came down, um one thing that Joy Colbeck er John Wenham’s sister was very very concerned about which is interesting is that she had the official report sent to her of the crash and many many years ago and in it it mentioned that the pilot it was the pilot’s fault because he was inexperienced she was desperately worried when she met the Reece family that this shouldn’t come out, she didn’t want it put in our book she didn’t want them to know because she felt that if they thought that that they wouldn’t be able to live with that, er and so of course we never mentioned it anywhere but I think you know we have discussed this and um basically if he didn’t have enough experience to go up that night then he shouldn’t have been allowed to go up so one can hardly blame the pilot we feel, but we did keep it quiet from the Reece family ah but it has been the most amazingly heart-warming experience since the service in April 2015, we have had three more sets of relatives from New Zealand who have visited they couldn’t make the service themselves but they have been over to England and I have taken them to the memorial, to the crash site, shown them round Westcott airfield which I am now getting very familiar with, and have taken them to Botley to the cemetery, and I expect there’ll soon be some more coming [laughs].
CB: Is there a crucial question here or matter I think which helped closure for families and that is um what was the um what was the operation that they were on because some people don’t recognise how many crashes were in training and there they attributed the loss to a wartime operation, so how did that come out with the different families?
SC: Um the fact that they were just on a on a training mission um I believe John Wenham’s sister knew that anyway um the New Zealand families were happy to know the facts.
CB: Which were?
SC: Which were that they had taken off from Westcott at about seven o’clock on a snowy evening to go on a training mission we’re not quite sure we haven’t been able to find out exactly where they were heading but they took off from Westcott at about seven seven ten and fifteen minutes fifteen minutes later the plane came down in North Marston, so it said on the official report that it came down in from five thousand feet, my mother who was in the back garden at the time heard the plane coming very low over and she knew that it sounded wrong there were Wellington planes all around the airfields around North Marston and she knew it sounded wrong, and Chris Holden with his friend up the road heard the explosion heard the bang, er Clifford Cheshire who was a young boy was out delivering bread with his father he came upon this crash scene within minutes, and er so that is why these people have such vivid memories but they we do not know we haven’t been able to find out what they were doing but it was a training flight the pilot was alone there wasn’t any other train there wasn’t um anybody training them they were on their own, um the New Zealand families were surprised to hear that it wasn’t a mission but they accepted it and er I don’t think they were anything other than pleased to know the facts.
CB: So just to clarify that so some of the families that were there were under some misapprehension that this was actually a bomber sortie.
SC: Yes they hadn’t ever been told that it was a training flight so they assumed that it was a bomber sortie in the in the New Zealand the New Zealand yes yes we have the letters in our book we have the letters that were written to them after the death to announce you know the deaths um from Captain Stevens who was the Group Captain at Westcott um and it basically says ‘your son lost his life as a result of a flying accident the aircraft in which he was flying took off from the station on a normal exercise at nineteen thirty five hours the aircraft crashed’ it doesn’t say what time it took off it just says it crashed at nineteen thirty five hours and it says it was a normal exercise and I think that they just assumed in New Zealand that it was actually a bombing mission, their boys had trained in Canada before they’d come over here and so they had these boys had arrived at Westcott in October around about October and this was January they were due to go off to another base very shortly where they would be going on to Lancasters and things um but I don’t think that er the families probably comprehended that they were just still training I think they probably thought having trained in Canada and come over to England that they had finished their training and no more training was involved er and the letter from Captain Stevens goes on to say ‘no details as to how the accident occurred are available’.
CB: So just to clarify that they’d done their initial training in Canada?
SC: They have.
CB: They’ve come to an operational conversion unit on a twin engine Wellington?
SC: Yes.
CB: There next move probably would have been to heavy bombers because of where the Westcott stream went.
SC: Yes.
CB: So they would have gone to a heavy conversion unit.
SC: Yes.
CB: After that they would have gone to an operational squadron.
SC: Yes yes and I believe that the New Zealand er contingent often went to the same place it was um you might know which one they went to.
CB: Seventy Five Squadron.
SC: Seventy Five Squadron yes yes, one of the letters that we have from one of the boys when he wrote home said that er you know he was sort of suggesting that very soon they would be on their way to somewhere else yes er you know um and they never got there and of course it was only a few months before the war finished
CB: Yes.
SC: Which is very very tragic.
CB: Yes because this was January 45 and the war finished on 8th May in Europe
SC: That’s right yes.
CB: 1945.
SC: Yes.
CB: What would you say was the reaction of the families to the event you put on in memory of the crew?
SC: Huge gratitude and overwhelming surprise that we had decided to honour their family members seventy years after the event that’s that those six lads were still being remembered and were in somebodies memory and I think they were honoured they felt honoured to um think that we had done this, that their boys names are now in the church on a plaque forever and er yes great surprise, but as I have said already several of them said what wonderful closure the actual siblings of the crew who died it brought real closure to these elderly people all in their nineties of course that now they felt it was it had come a full circle and this had been remembered, and of course they were so grateful that they now knew more details about everything and that they had managed to find out about the other crew members that were in the plane with their relatives that night and they have become firm friends the New Zealanders now are all in contact with each other and they write to the old lady in Luton so they’re emailing her she is in her nineties but she still emails she’s very lucid so its brought great friendship and a sense of togetherness and very heart-warming to us at the history club that we managed to do this for these people.
CB: Yes, and in the village what was the reaction to the publication of the book but actually the event itself also?
SC: Well we had the most amazing response to the book because the money just starting pouring in I think the fact that we showed the photograph the photographs we got by then that the photographs the story of this plane crash in this little booklet made it very personal and very poignant um and the village people showed great interest in fact I think we could have filled the church twice over er that day of the big service but obviously with all the RAF personnel and relatives you know and people close to it we er we couldn’t fit we wouldn’t have fitted everybody in um [laughs] but er yes um great interest great interest.
CB: I remember it was a very good event.
SC: You see a lot of people in the village er had no idea that a plane had crashed you know in the village and they didn’t know that and so I think yes it was an event very well worth doing all round for everybody concerned.
CB: Two supplementary questions associated with this what was the reaction of the Church of England to this?
SC: Er there was no opposition whatsoever to putting a memorial in the church the Faculty although they took a long time to give us permission but I think faculties always take a long time to come through and the er Vicar the village Vicar was very very happy to do that.
CB: And afterwards did you get anything from them?
SC: From the church?
CB: Yes.
SC: Yes um in fact er we we because we had some money er left over from our collection we actually gave the church a substan quite a nice amount of money as er the collection at the church that day was about five hundred pounds that day and so er I think we actually handed that over to the church so they were very grateful for that as well.
CB: Right brilliant, the second question is to do with your speciality education so how did the Local Education Authority but particularly the school in the village react?
SC: The school in the village? Er they had very little to do with it the village school yes yes.
CB: It’s not surprising in a way that so many people don’t even know when the war was.
SC: Mmm mmm.
CB: Let alone anything that came out of it.
SC: Absolutely, I think to be honest with you we were so busy, and I was particularly busy because I I organised it all, so I wrote all the letters, I wrote all the invitations, I did all of the organising absolutely everything, I wrote the service and everything, I think I was so probably taken up with the organisation of it all that I didn’t actually involve to be fair the village school children at that time because um we we just had so much else to do, we have the North Marston History Club we do go into the school I have gone into the school and given talks on various things like the history of the school but we haven’t actually talked to them about this particular event but we we might because I think it it’s something that we can we can do but at the time the village school children weren’t really involved, the children who were at the service were not the village school children they were air cadets local air cadets and the young scouts from Maidstone, er quite another nice coincidence was that John Wenham the young air gunner was a scout in Maidstone in the Tovil Scouts and there is a memorial to him on their Scout memorial but also his name is just alongside Guy Gibson’s because Guy Gibson was an honorary Tovil Scout, so John Wenham and Guy Gibson are on the same memorial down in Maidstone which is rather rather lovely, and those scouts our Tovil Scouts from Maidstone have forged a relationship with old dear Joy Colbeck now and they um have looked after they have now gone round to look after her brother’s grave in Maidstone and in fact the war grave the War Grave Commission have renovated er his stone and so that’s another nice outcome, I think the she wrote to it and I think it all brought it to the fore that the stone was getting in very poor condition and so that’s another result of this is that his stone has now been renovated at and the Tovil Scouts tend it and have shown an interest in him so it’s been educational for those young boys as well, and I think also what has been again so amazing is the response from the newspapers the Kent Messenger they have run big they wrote ran a big article for and to find to try and help us trace relatives they reported our service afterwards, The Best of British Magazine had it in , in er you know the Bucks Herald, er and the Brigton Argos if they hadn’t have published our story that time, and then since then the Kent Messenger the journalist there who was so interested in our story that he has contacted Joy Colbeck and has got a lot of stories about her family and her her family grew up in Maidstone, her family ran I’ll say a well known shop in Maidstone and I think he’s just suddenly she’s become a local celebrity in Maidstone although she lives in Luton she’s become a local celebrity in Maidstone and he’s been writing stories about her so that’s another offshoot really from it yes yes.
CB: You mentioned the Military Cemetery at Botley on the west side of Oxford.
SC: Yes yes.
CB: How well is that maintained and by who?
SC: It’s maintained beautifully um I’m not sure whether it’s the Oxford Council who do it or whether it’s the War Graves Commission but I’ve visited it on many occasions occasions and there’s always somebody mowing it’s beautifully kept and the three New Zealand boys are buried side by side and then the two British are just a few yards away in a different place, and all of the relatives who have visited this country have all obviously been over to Botley, and on the morning of our service on 25th April, we organised a little minibus and er a little minibus load of people went over there before they came back for our afternoon service and they took poppies and flowers over there to lay on the graves that day, yes very very beautifully maintained.
CB: Finally you’ve done a huge amount of work on this which worked extremely well and gave great closure for the families what would you say was the most memorable aspect of your task in arranging and er closing this operation?
SC: I think the most memorable aspect was our initial contact with the families we had no idea we would actually contact anybody and I think to receive photographs but receiving the photographs um I think every time I had a photograph I burst into tears when I saw it, there was only one of the crew who we couldn’t get a photograph of as an adult we only had one of the child, but to see photographs of those boys who died that night that’s my most I think one of the most poignant things, and I think to looking back to think how we have brought the families together and have given them so much information and honoured them, I think they felt honoured that we had remembered their boys and I think it’s the overwhelming sense of thanks and gratitude that we have had from the families I think that has been the the the personal aspect of it has been the most the thing that will live with me forever, I think it really well and er its been er yes a very very very worthy thing and I shall never regret doing it, my only regret is that my dear mother who saw the plane come down that night and who gave me the first early stories of this plane er had died before we managed to do this she would have just loved to have met everybody so that was my regret but yes that’s it I think really to say the everlasting legacy of it I think.
CB: In view of what you said I think it’s worth recording that er to do with the New Zealanders that of all the Commonwealth Countries New Zealand contributed the highest proportion of it’s population towards the war effort in Britain.
SC: Really, that’s amazing.
CB: So Sue we’ve spoken about people who are effectively are not in this locality in terms of the crew and their families and their descendants but in the locality first of all what was the reactions of schools and secondly the press because that links together really in an awareness but first the school so what was their reaction?
SC: Er the local village school er didn’t actually show any interest in it really, that said we didn’t approach the school at the time because we were so very very busy involved in the organisation and all of you can imagine how busy we were, er but some of the people who had given us money er and were helping us in the project had children had links with the village school but somehow it didn’t filter through to the village school or the headmistress there er that this might be a worthy project for her children to do, I don’t think that the headmistress of North Marston Village School had a great interest in history herself, in fact the only thing that the village school has done in North Marston in any way to do with history is that they have called their four houses after some important names linked with the village history, like Shaw and Camden and things like that because of its their names that go back in North Marston history back to twelve hundreds they have called their children’s houses by those names, misspelt I might say they haven’t spelt them properly, but that’s the only real thing that they’ve done towards village history, and they did er I asked them if I could go in and give them a history talk and I talked about the history of the village school er so that is really the only link that they have they have had with history, oh and I believe our Chairman of the History Club did take them on a guided walk around the village but certainly with where we go back to the bomber they didn’t show any interest at the time but that said we were so busy and exhausted with it all actually that we probably didn’t approach the school ourselves so we might have engendered so interest if we had gone in, um but the local newspapers were very disinterested the Buckingham Advertiser didn’t even publish a story about it and the Bucks Herald did publish something many weeks after after we had cajoled and that was a complete contrast to the reactions that we had from the Kent Messenger newspaper and the Brigton Argos newspaper who were thrilled to publish pictures of our big service and the stories behind them so it’s interesting that the editorial in the Bucks papers is disinterested in that sort of thing, er I will probably give a talk to the school at some stage actually I’m sure that they will um yes they they will let me go in and talk to them but I think um it didn’t engender their interest at the time.
CB: And your secondary school is in Waddesdon so what was the reaction there?
SC: No well we haven’t heard anything from them but again they might not have known anything about it because the local papers didn’t publicise it.
CB: Okay right I’ll stop there.
SC: Keep thinking of things but
CB: There are occasionally other things that come to mind afterwards and one is that there are stories about things that happened like what your mother’s perception was so shall we just cover that and also the other one so what did your mother say about it?
SC: Well my mother who happened to be in the outside privy in the garden at the time age twenty seven heard the Wellington bomber coming over and knew that it was in trouble because it didn’t sound like the other Wellington bombers that were always going over, she always said to me that it was on fire and she heard those poor boys screaming, but thinking about it with the noise of a Wellington bomber just a hundred feet above your head she probably didn’t hear screams and although it exploded in a field about quarter of a mile away er and obviously there was fire all around them, er we’ve all discussed since that possibly it wasn’t on fire when my mother saw it but it’s something that she thought it probably would have been but she didn’t actually see it but she’s dead now so we won’t ever know but that was her perception of it at the time.
CB: Well it could have been an engine fire of course as the crash was undetermined, what was the other story?
SC: Well this isn’t in our book at all and we haven’t mentioned it to some of the relatives but a local person in North Marston, Mike Fillamore, who is still alive, said that he was told by another local villager that the morning after the crash when they were down there a body was found hanging in a tree an ash tree just on the edge of the road, this was news to me I’ve never heard this story certainly my mother had never mentioned it, but the person who told this story was somebody called Jeff Ayres who has now passed away, but Mike Fillamore who heard this story from him said that was what he told him but Mike Fillamore could still tell you that, but we didn’t mention this to er the Joy Colbeck, the sister of John Wenham who was an air gunner, because we thought that it would upset her if she thought that it was her young brother who might have been in that tree and possibly in the dark might not have been noticed that night and could possibly have been saved, so we thought it was best not to tell her this because it’s not substantiated but I think I don’t know where the story comes from but this was what was said.
CB: So it is quite possible of course that somebody tried to get out like the rear gunner rotating his turret.
SC: Yes, so it could have been John Wenham or the young Reg Price the two nineteen year olds.
CB: Yes. Thank you.
Dublin Core
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AChaplinSR170407
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Interview with Sue Chaplin
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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00:52:23 audio recording
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Pending review
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2017-04-07
Description
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Susan Chaplin was born in North Marston and was a local teacher. She recounts the story her mother told her as a young girl, about Wellington HE740 which crashed near the village. With her local history group she researched and wrote a book “The North Marston Story”, about the crash and erected a memorial in the village church. Flight Sergeant Michael Reece, Flight Sergeant Donald McLennan, Flight Sergeant Alexander Bolger, Sergeant Ian Smith, Sergeant John Wenham and Sergeant Reginald Price were killed in the crash.
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
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1945-01-04
Contributor
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Jackie Simpson
crash
final resting place
memorial
Operational Training Unit
RAF Westcott
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/255/3402/PLairdCraig1701.1.jpg
dd35678b5dd714fa6ca7f93d8b04d077
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/255/3402/AFoisterMS171010.1.mp3
42bc4842674a2bca0286d57de31c3599
Dublin Core
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Title
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Foister, Mary Stanley
Alan Laird Crag and Mary Stanley Foister
Alan Laird Craig
A Laird Craig
Mary Stanley Foister
Mary S Foister
Mary Foister
M S Foister
M Foister
Mary Stanley-Smith
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Mary Stanley Foister (nee Stanley Smith, formerly Laird Craig )(1921 - 2017, 2028611 Woman's Auxiliary Air Force).
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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LairdCraig
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HB: This is an interview between Harry Bartlett from the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive and Mary Foister. Mary was, formerly, the wife of Wing Commander Alan John Laird Craig, but Mary, in her own right, was an RAF officer. The interview is taking place at [redacted] Hoby, Leicestershire. It’s Tuesday the 10th of October 2017, and the time is 10.05am. Mary, thank you for doing this interview, for agreeing to this interview. Could you just tell me a little about your background before you joined the RAF?
MF: Yes. Well I was born in Buckinghamshire and we moved to Pound Farm in a little village in Buckinghamshire, near Princes Risborough. I was the eldest grandchild on my father’s side so I was very spoilt because of all the uncles and aunts, and the youngest one on my mother’s side so I was spoilt because I was the youngest. So I had a very happy childhood. And then my father came into some property in a place called Walters Ash, a village, Walters Ash and Knaphill, up on the hill, about five miles away from where we were and his home was there, his original home from the farm, and then suddenly, we had a boy next door called Alan Oakcroft, who lived next door to us, was in the Air Force, and he was constantly, stationed at Abingdon, constantly flying over the house and we thought oh he was just being friendly, you know. But eventually he said to my father, ‘Ernest I must come and see you officially, we’re going to take over your’ - daddy had the lease on Bradenham Manor and the land and the farming you see – ‘we are going to take over your Bradenham Manor land for Bomber Command Headquarters.’ This is why he’d been flying over, taking all the things you see, all the photographs.
HB: What year was that, Mary? Can you remember?
MF: That would be about, er, I think about ’36 ’37, yes, about then, and so well, it was absolutely amazing. He’d been chosen to do it because he’s a local boy and they thought he would know the. So they took over Walters Ash Farm, which was my father’s home, and, well it changed the whole village of course, and built Bomber Command Headquarters there. I mean we were very much a farming family, nothing to do with the services at all, but we used to go to the mess and I said to my father ‘I want to join the WAAF’ and he said ‘whatever for, you’ve got your own bedroom, you’ve got your own pony’ [laughter]. I said I want to join the WAAF, so I joined the WAAF. And I was sent to, and he had friends in the Headquarters, he said I don’t want her to go too far away so I was sent to Bicester, which was an Officer’s Training Unit for bombers and I had, well he used to come down and see me every weekend, you know, check up on me. He said ‘you’re not going to stay in are you?’ I said yes, I loved it, ‘cause I loved boarding school and so that was that. And I was at Bicester as a corporal, I got my commission, went to Windermere for the officer training thing and then the only thing I’d done after leaving school was done an admin course in London, shorthand typing, and so I was sent to Newcastle on Tyne for an admin course, and I had about three months there and that was fun because it was near Edinburgh, we used to pop up and you know, then my posting came through. By this time of course I’d got a commission.
HB: What rank were you then Mary? When you got your commission, what rank would you be then?
MF: Oh, Assistant Section Officer, ASO, [laugh] the lowest of the low. So, you see my father obviously wanted me back at Bomber Command under his control, nice control, and I didn’t want to go back to Bomber Command because it was Headquarters and they were all old all me! I was about eighteen at the time you see, so I had this friend there and he said there’s a good posting going at Exning near Newmarket, at a Bomber Group Headquarters.
HB: Exning?
MF: Number 3 Group Headquarters. So I was posted there as ASO, Assistant Section Officer, to Air Vice Marshal Richard Harrison, who had been left at the altar so he didn’t like women, so he wasn’t very receptive. [Laughter]
HB: Oh dear!
MF: But we tamed him [laughter] anyway, yes, we became great friends in the end, so that was, as I say, my first posting and I was his PA for, oh goodness I can’t think, and I avoided Bomber Command like the plague because I didn’t want to go home, you know, but eventually I got posted to up Bomber Command right at the end of the war, as the war ended, to Bomber Harris, a little bit, about six weeks of him, and that was quite enough, and then to, my last posting was Air Vice Marshal, Air Marshal Sir Norman Bottomley, who was an absolute dear, lovely to work for. In the meantime Alan had, he was the youngest Wing Commander in the Royal Air Force at twenty one, he had a spectacular career, very well decorated and he was chosen, his squadron was chosen to go to the Far East and then that war stopped, so what do we do.
HB: The Japanese war.
MF: So he trained Lancasters to do formation flying which had never been done with Lancasters, been done with fighters but never done with bomber aircraft you see, and this impressed Bomber Harris, and Bomber Harris’s PA came from Rio de Janeiro, can’t think of his name now, anyway, and he said ‘I want three white Lancasters to take my PA back to Rio.’ So he had three white Lancasters, and Alan was the chief pilot, back to Rio and they were gone for six weeks. Of course you know they made so much a fuss after the war, and they gave them a wonderful time, so I thought well that’ll be the end of that, I shall never see him again, but I did and came back and Alan was stationed at Gravely in Huntingdonshire then, RAF Gravely, which was Pathfinder Squadron, under Don Bennett, and so I was at, I was on leave, in the south of France with my mother and I said ‘I have to go back on duty’ because I thought I’m going to see that squadron come in. So I came back all the way from France, to Gravely, to see 35 Squadron come in, back from Rio de Janeiro. But Alan never spoke to me, I mean we’d been quite friendly, but I thought well that’s the end of that. A week later he phoned up and said ‘hello, how are you’, and I said ‘I’m all right’ [laugh] and he said ‘well shall we meet in London’. So I said ‘yes, fine, where?’ he said ‘oh meet at the Dorchester’. So we met at the Dorchester and he said ‘oh, I’ve been posted’, I said ‘oh goodness, really, where?’ And he said Buenos Aires. He said will you marry me? I said yes! [Laughter]
HB: As quick as that!
MF: Anyway, because of this trip to Rio, they more or less said to him what would you like to do and he said I’d like to go back to Rio, but he went to Buenos Aires and so in a month, my mother was very sort of formal person, you know in dress and everything, we had to have a white wedding in London and one thing and the other and we were married at St Peter’s, Vere Street, and then the reception at the Dorchester, and well, then within a fortnight we sailed for BA, I got out of the WAAF and.
HB: What year was that, Mary?
MF: ’40 - when did the war end?
HB: ‘45.
MF: ’46. November ’46. I got married on November the 9th ‘46. And we sailed from Tilbury on the Highland Chieftain, had a wonderful three week trip across to BA, and that was that, you know, so then I found I was pregnant with that one – straight away! [Laugh] So Gavin was born out there.
HB: So you had to resign your commission when you got married?
MF: Oh yes. Yes, yes.
HB: Can I just take you back Mary, a little bit, just a little bit, because I was intrigued, you actually started, once you were qualified at Bicester, you went out to Ixney. Ixney? How have I written it down? You qualified at Bicester, but you, for a period of time you ended, you were with Harris.
MF: Oh! At the end, that was when I was commissioned, right at the end you see.
HB: Ah right! So prior to working for Harris, what would your job entail being the PA, before Harris, because you were PA to, um, at 3 Group.
MF: Harris was before BA you see.
HB: Yep. Sorry, PA, you were personal assistant to?
MF: Bomber Harris.
HB: Before Harris.
MF: Um, well to the man at Newmarket, at Exning.
HB: At Exning, Exning, right. It’s all right, I’d just lost, I lost a little bit of the continuity there, I thought we’d.
MF: No, I didn’t want to go back to Bomber Command so that’s when I got posted to Exning, near Newmarket in Suffolk, and I was PA to Air Vice Marshal Harrison.
HB: Yup. Harrison! That’s what caused me the confusion. It’s Harrison and then Harris!
MF: Harris. Ah yes, As I say he was left at the altar so he was anti women!
HB: Yes, but you talked him round. Wonderful. So you went out to BA, as a new bride, you’re then expecting Gavin. How long were you out in Buenos Aires?
MF: How long?
HB: How long were you in Buenos Aires?
MF: I think about two years, yes.
HB: So Gavin was born.
MF: Born out there.
HB: Out there. So what was Alan doing at the time?
MF: Well he was Assistant Air Attaché.
HB: Ah, right.
MF: To a man called Beisegel. B E I S E G E L. So they, we had Paraguay, Uruguay and the Argentine. We never got into Paraguay ‘cause they were always having a war [laugh], we got into Uruguay a lot, which was nice, and Buenos Aires of course which was enormous, so we went right down the south and travelled all over the Argentine.
HB: Right. So you were down in South America for two years.
MF: Two years, yes.
HB: What happened then? How did you?
MF: Then we came back, then we came back to earth a bit because they’d caught up with, Alan had been, way, way back, back in Coastal Command, earlier on in his career and they wanted a Chief Flying Instructor at Kinloss, in Scotland, so we went from Buenos Aries to Kinloss.
HB: Hmm. So that would be 1948, ’49 [phone tone] I’ll just have to pause the interview a minute. I’m just going to resume the interview that we temporarily paused. So, you’ve arrived at RAF Kinloss, what was Alan doing there? What was his job there?
MF: He was Chief Flying Instructor.
HB: Right. And what kind of aircraft, what kind of aircraft would he be flying there?
MF: Good heavens, I ought to know. I can’t remember at the moment.
HB: Shackletons perhaps?
MF: No, I don’t think so. Huh.
HB: It doesn’t matter, it’s not a major. So you were in quarters, living in.
MF: Well no, there weren’t any quarters; we lived in these little cottages. This one used to slide along on his bottom because he couldn’t, on lino you know, they were very barely furnished and suddenly one day he stood up and walked and I rang Alan and said: ‘Gavin’s walking!’ [Laugh]
HB: Lovely! That was in Findhorn village, in the village.
MF: Yes.
HB: So how long were you at Kinloss?
MF: [Sigh] Well, I, my daughter was born when I was up there, but I went south to my mother to have my daughter. I was away for a month because she said you can’t have that baby up here, so I went south and had my daughter. We were there about two and a half years, I think. Such a long time ago now, to remember all these things.
HB: Well you’re doing very well [much laughter]. I have to say, extremely well! So what was, when you first came back, from Buenos Aires, what was the biggest change you noticed in this country, having been living abroad for two years? You would have come back in 1948.
MF: Hmm. Well, I don’t know, you see my mother and sister came out to Buenos Aires for three months with us, to stay out there, and then they came home well, I don’t, well what biggest change, I don’t know. Can’t really think of anything.
HB: You found everything fairly settled.
MF: Well, much the same really. I mean obviously, I mean there was still food rationing when we came back. Course, when we went to Scotland that didn’t apply, I mean there was no rationing up there.
HB: Oh! No!
MF: No. Well not literally no, ‘cause you could get anything you wanted.
HB: Yeah. So, in Buenos Aires you lived, where did you live in Buenos Aires?
MF: We lived in a flat in the town to begin with, and then we moved out because we had Gavin, when we said we need a garden, and we moved out to a little house in San Isidro, up the river, and we had a Chinese cook who lived in a little hut at the bottom of the garden, Chinese cook called Georgie, and he was marvellous, and he, you know, Gavin was in his pram and he was in the sun, he would go out and move Gavin out of the sun.
HB: Lovely, oh that’s delightful. So you left the sunshine of Buenos Aires and you moved to Kinloss.
MF: Kinloss! That side of Scotland was, is very good, I mean it’s better than the west side, as you know. Oh yes, it was very good.
HB: And that’s your family’s developing now, your daughter, you came south and you had your daughter.
MF: Had her in the Radcliffe, came back and went back to Kinloss and that was that. And then we got posted back to Bomber Command, er no, got posted back to Air Ministry, but my mother said ‘you can’t live in one of those awful little quarters’, [chuckle] ‘you must have your own house’, so we bought a house in the village of Walters Ash, where Bomber Command is, and we had our own house there, and Alan used to go to Air Ministry every day and then he met our MP, called John Hall, and Alan said ‘well I’m a bit fed up of this’, because he was a Wing Commander at twenty one as I said, at thirty two he’d reverted to a Squadron Leader because well, you know, that was the thing, so he said bit tired to John Hall and John Hall said ‘come and see my Chairman’, he didn’t know him. He was a man called Sir Lindsay Finn and we didn’t know what on earth he did, apart from sit in Parliament. It turned out he was Chairman of Gossard Corsets! [Laugh]
HB: Oh right, right.
MF: So when Alan came home I said ‘well, what does he do apart from siting in Parliament?’ he said ‘he’s chairmen of Gossard Corsets!’ I said ‘well you can’t do that!’ But you see, by this time I’d got three children, I’d got my daughter and another son, Adrian, and we were in our house in this village, in Bomber Command village, and well, he was very tempted to come out because as I say, and my parents, of course, didn’t want us to move away again, so they were very influential. It was awful that we came out of the Air Force, I was so sad, it was wrong really, ‘cause Alan would have I think gone a long way. Anyway, we came out and, but they then, they had, Gossard, had this factory up here in Syston and they sent him up here!
HB: Oh right!
HF: So he was up here for three months and I was alone in Bucks and said oh goodness so they said well you’d better buy yourself a house, to Alan, and move your family up there. This was in 1954 I think ’55 I think, and so then we bought Gadsby Hall, and, they bought it for us, and we had, we lived there. The house had had twenty seven bedrooms, but they knocked the top off and the sides off and made it into a reasonable house, but it had seven acres of garden, which it still has. So anyway we did that and he was, my father was ill and in hospital and I was down south visiting him and I thought Alan had gone to France. By this time he, as I say, joined this, when I say they made the corsets, they made the machinery up here, this was the, so he was due to go to France on the Friday morning, on the Monday morning, I thought well I’ll go and see my father because he’s in hospital in High Wycombe and so I went off after Alan went but Alan didn’t feel well so he didn’t go. And the next thing was, on Tuesday, I got a message, we had a houseboy living in the house at Gadsby, called John Griss and he rang me up and said ‘oh the Wing Commander’s not too well, I thought you should know’ I said, ‘he went to France!’ He said ‘no he didn’t go because he didn’t feel well.’ So he said the doctor, our doctor lived in Gadsby village, so he sent him straight to, which hospital in Leicester?
[Other]: Royal Infirmary.
MF: Did he go to the Royal Infirmary?
[Other]: Glenfield? No.
HB: Not then, Glenfield not. Be the Leicester General?
MF: No, it was a nursing home.
[Other]: No, it wasn’t a nursing home, it was a full blown hospital.
MF: Oh was it, it was, yes. [Pause] Anyway, but Gavin and I got into a car straight away, rushed up here and this boy in the house said ‘he’s been taken to the hospital in Leicester’, and we walked in and Dr Ward, who lived in Gadsby was our doctor, was struggling, said ‘I’m afraid he’s dead’, so, like that. [Paper shuffling]
HB: What year was that?
[Other]: 1971.
HB: ’71 Oh dear. Oh right, I think, I thought I’d read somewhere that he’d been taken ill, and he was being treated for the illness and had the heart attack. Yes.
MF: Yes he was. Yes. As I say, he should have gone to France, but he didn’t go. But he didn’t let me know that he wasn’t going to France, so course I thought he’d gone, there you are.
HB: Can I just take you right back, very simple question: can you remember what your service number was?
MF: Ha! Something 0 double 1. Can’t remember. 20286 double 1. 20286 double 1. Maybe.
HB: 202 86
MF: Double 1. Maybe.
HB: Double 1.
[Other]: Sorry Harry. Can I just interrupt, just one second?
HB: Can I just pause the tape. Restart this, it’s 10.38, we’re just restarting the interview. Mary’s son Gavin has just had to leave, so we’ll just carry on. Right, so we’ve got to Alan actually dying in 1971. Can I just again, just go back a little bit, very, very disreputable question to ask a lady, but can you tell me what your date of birth is?
MF: 25 11 21.
HB: That’s lovely, thank you. What was your original maiden name?
MF: Stanley-Smith
HB: Stanley-Smith hyphenated. And has the Stanley got an e in it?
MF: Yes.
HB: Stanley-Smith. That’s lovely. [Cough] ‘Scuse me. Yes, just going back now, just try and pick up on one or two things we may have skated over a little bit. You said you went to boarding school. Where did you go to boarding school?
MF: Cliftonville, in Kent.
HB: Cliftonville, right. And you finished boarding school in time to join the RAF.
MF: Yes. I became head girl at boarding school. [Chuckle]
HB: Ooh!
MF: And well then, as I say, left. I did a little job in London for a bit, for a month or two, then I joined the WAAF.
HB: Yes. And as you say, you did your training in Windermere.
MF: Yes.
HB: How, what was your training like? Was it austere or was it very relaxed?
MF: No, quite happy, quite easy going year, yes.
HB: But you had to learn to look after your uniform.
MF: That sort of thing, yes. Yes, we marched about, as I say so long ago now, I can’t remember.
HB: And then you became a personal assistant to Sir Norman Bottomley.
MF: Ah, not, no, to Air Vice Marshal Harrison to begin with.
HB: Ah. Sorry, Harrison was the one that was left at the altar.
MF: Yes, yes.
HB: So you went to Air Vice Marshal Harrison and then a short time.
MF: At Exning, yes.
HB: At Exning. And then a short time with Harris. Where were you based with Harris?
MF: Bomber Command, Headquarters.
HB: At?
MF: Well, Walters Ash.
HB: High Wycombe, Walters Ash.
MF: Back in my home village you see.
HB: Yeah. And then you went to Sir Norman Bottomley.
MF: Yep. He took over from Harris, so I, and he was lovely to work for, and they had a house, the official house there was called Springfields, up at Prestwood, a mile or two away and we used to go up there. If there was nothing to do he’d say ‘oh let’s go and have a game of tennis’, he was lovely.
HB: Oh, right.
MF: But then you probably had to work till midnight if something happened, but you didn’t mind.
HB: And did you, when you worked for Harrison and Harris and Bottomley, did you notice, or did you, were you conscious of the pressure they were under?
MF: Well not really, no, I think you just accepted it, you know.
HB: Because I mean at that stage of the war, in ’43 ’44 things were very pressured.
MF: Yes, yes. Well I mean, that was when I was at Newmarket you see, at Exning, during the war, yes, I suppose you did, but I mean he, Harrison, the man at Newmarket, the Air Vice Marshal, was, as I say, very difficult to get on with to begin with as he didn’t like women because he’d been left at the altar, but he, I mean we tamed him, he became quite human, but he wasn’t easy. I mean if we went to a party, we had Corporal Wynn, the driver, and a Humber car, and we’d go out to this party, you know, and he didn’t drink, he’d have that much beer and then he’d come up to me and say ‘well I’m going home now, if you can get a lift you can stay.’ [Laugh] He was terribly non-party so that was when I invariably got a lift with Alan you see, went home with Alan because he was then stationed at 3 Group where I was, having a rest from operations and so he used to take me home, so that’s how we met really.
HB: Ah, right. That falls into line now. [Cough] When you worked for Sir Norman Bottomley, you got a Mentioned in Despatches.
MF: Yes.
HB: What was that for? Being very good?
MF: [Laughter] Well, I must have been quite good I suppose at something!
HB: Can you remember what year that would be?
MF: 40, what 50? When did I work for him, 50?
HB: Well you finished with the RAF when you were married, which was er, 1946.
MF: Yes well that was when I got my MiD, when I left him, you know.
HB: Right, so that’s. Right. And do you know if that was published in the Gazette, the London Gazette?
MF: Well I suppose it was. Yes they would be.
HB: Oh, right, so, social life, in the RAF, you’ve joined the RAF, you’ve done your training, what was your social life like?
MF: Oh marvellous! [Laughter]
HB: It was, it was good was it?
MF: Absolutely! Yes, I mean even uncommissioned we had great fun, good parties and things and I’m a party girl, you know, like people. Oh, we had great time and then when I was commissioned we had marvellous parties at Newmarket and Exning. [Chuckle]
HB: Oh right. Were the parties in private houses and places or did you have them on station?
MF: Oh, on the station mainly. Yes, yes.
HB: Did you go to any of the parties out at say somewhere like Lakenheath, or?
MF: Oh yes, oh we went everywhere, yes, all round because 3 Group covered Lakenheath and all those things in Suffolk you see, stations in Suffolk so we never stopped. But as I say my boss then, Harrison, didn’t like parties, so that’s why I had such a good time. [Laugh]
HB: So you were left to your own devices. Oh, that’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. So you met Alan when you were at 3 Group.
MF: Yes, ‘cause he came in for a rest from his operations.
HB: He would have been, ‘cause he was in four squadrons as far as I can find out. He was in 7 Squadron, 35 Squadron, 156 and 161.
MF: 161. All Pathfinders.
HB: Yeah. And he, at the time you [emphasis] met him, in 3 Group, what rank was he then?
MF: He was Squadron Leader.
HB: He was Squadron Leader. Right. So, there’s this dashing Squadron Leader, having a rest from operations.
MF: Operations, in Newmarket, Exning. Yes.
HB: And he swept off your feet!
MF: Yes, sort of. [Laughter]
HB: Or you were just great friends and gradually got swept off your feet. So just going on with the theme of Alan, Alan had joined the RAF quite early.
MF: Yes, he joined at sixteen, said he was seventeen.
HB: Did he? Right.
MF: But he was very tall, so he looked seventeen you know, so he got away with it.
HB: Initially where did he start his training, can you remember?
MF: Of course I didn’t know him in those days. He lived in Gloucestershire. I can’t remember.
HB: ‘Cause he would have joined as, what, something like a Leading Aircraftsman I would think. If he was going to.
MF: Yes.
HB: And can you remember where he did his flying training?
MF: Where he started? No I can’t.
HB: So actually, thinking back, if he joined in, when he was sixteen.
MF: He said he was seventeen.
HB: That would be, that would be just about 1939?
MF: Yes.
HB: Right at the beginning of the war.
MF: Yes, right at the beginning.
HB: Yeah. So it’s possible he learnt his flying in this country.
MF: Oh yes, oh definitely.
HB: Before they started sending them to South Africa and Canada.
MF: Oh yes.
HB: So he did his pilot training and went to squadron. He flew an awful lot of operations, didn’t he.
MF: Oh yes, yes. Whole lot. I couldn’t, I should have looked out the books for you.
HB: Oh no, no. It’s what you [emphasis] can remember of it because obviously that’s a little bit closer. If think if memory serves, he certainly flew seventy or more operations.
MF: Oh yes.
HB: And eventually became a Master Bomber?
MF: Yes, he was a Master Bomber.
HB: With Pathfinders, so, while he was doing that, you’ve had the party time and you’ve now moved on, so you’re serving at the level of Sir Norman Bottomley, and you’re seeing the strategy and everything, but you must also have seen the returns coming in of the losses.
MF: Oh yes.
HB: And Alan was still flying then, obviously. So how did, did you just accept that, or did it concern you?
MF: Well you did it was going on all the time, wasn’t it, I mean you know, it was all part of the war so you just accepted it. You were sad for twenty four hours when somebody you knew lost their life, but that was it. I mean there we are.
HB: Sad time. Lot of good people went.
MF: Mm hm.
HB: Yeah. The, so as you’ve come, as Alan was coming towards the end of the war, before you went, before you were married, did you sit down and talk about what you thought you might do after the war or was it just accepted?
MF: Oh, I mean we didn’t think we’d ever come out of the Air Force, I didn’t. I didn’t want to. But he thought it was better for him, I mean the money was better and we had three children to educate, so that was one reason, you know, when he came out, but it was the worst thing we ever did because I think he would have made a very good high rank officer. I didn’t want to come out, but there we are, what do you do.
HB: Am I right, were there rules about whether or not you could stay if you were married to a serving RAF officer?
MF: You could stay.
HB: Could you stay if you were married?
MF: Oh yes. Well.
HB: If you, sorry, a woman officer, could a woman officer stay in the RAF if she married another RAF officer?
MF: Oh no! Well I don’t think so. I suppose so, I don’t know. I mean I got out, I gave up because of having children.
HB: Yeah, I see what you mean, right, so Alan’s flown all these tours, you’ve eventually come back to Bomber Command, what was Alan doing in Bomber Command before you went to Buenos Aires, can you remember?
MF: Goodness, I ought to. What was he doing? I can’t remember now. No.
HB: I mean obviously he was working on things at a higher level.
MF: Yes, yes. That’s right.
HB: To become an Assistant ADC, sorry, Air Attaché, is quite, obviously quite demanding. So, I think what we’ll do is, I’ll terminate the interview now because I think there’s so much of Alan’s memorabilia that we need to look in to, we need to research properly, it’s unfair to ask you all the questions without the documents in front of you, so I think what we’ll do is, we’ll terminate the interview now, and I thank you on behalf of the Digital Archive for what you’ve told us.
MF: It’s silly, the things I’ve forgotten, but you do after all these years, you know.
HB: Absolutely. It’s been a pleasure, it’s er, I haven’t got a clock, I’ll have to just have a quick check, it’s quarter to eleven, sorry, I do have it wrong.
MF: Five to eleven.
HB: It’s five to eleven, and we’re just going to just stop the interview there and I’ve photographs to take, so thank you very much, I’ll just stop that. Supplementary to the interview, it’s 11.38, we’ve been chatting and Mary has just been telling me about an incident which I think is relevant. So just tell me what happened when you came back from France to see Alan.
MF: Well I saw them land in, from Brazil, and then a week later he rang me up and said would you like to come on this flypast?
HB: And the date of the flypast? 6th. 6th of June?
MF: 6th of June, yes.
HB: 6th of June 1946.
MF: And I said yes please, so I flew with Michael Beetham who was on Alan’s right, Alan was the commander and so I flew with him and it was absolutely marvellous, and then went back to Gravely where they were stationed, had a marvellous lunch and very late because I mean they were so good to the Air Force, you know, didn’t mind, and that was when he said, somebody said ‘Mary, what are you going to do when you leave the WAAF’, and I said ‘I don’t know’, and before I could say anything he said ‘she’s going to marry me.’ Just like that! [Laughter]
HB: Right! So the flypast was over London.
MF: Over London, yes.
HB: Over Buckingham Palace.
MF: Yes, over Buckingham Palace.
HB: [Cough] And it was a flight of Lancasters.
MF: Whoops. Come and see.
HB: Steady, steady!
MF: Whoops. I’ve got this.
HB: Got it. Just going to pause the interview. We just paused the interview there.
MF: Can I offer you anything drink? Would you like a sherry or something, dear?
HB: No I’m fine thank you, I’m fine. We’ve just paused the interview to pop out into the hall and take some photographs of the various pictures that Mary has of her late husband Alan’s career, the most important being the 8th of June Flypast in the white Lancasters, with Mary sat in the right hand plane with, what was his name? Bentham?
MF: It was amazing!
HB: You obviously thoroughly enjoyed that.
MF: Oh absolutely! I mean I was young enough then to enjoy all these things and I sat on this little bit, you know, about that big, all the way over London!
HB: About the size of a footstool. Oh dear. Could you actually see out of the aircraft?
MF: Oh yes, a bit. Yes.
HB: Exciting!
MF: It was exciting. I was the only girl on the, in all this. Amazing.
HB: Wow, wow! So how, I notice in Alan’s medals he has the DSO. What did he get the DSO for?
MF: Oh goodness, [sigh] I can’t remember, some bombing, you know, thing. I don’t know.
HB: Oh right, ‘cause I know he got a DFC early on for bringing a very badly damaged aircraft back.
MF: Yes. DSO, DFC, AFC. Well the AFC was in peacetime I think, wasn’t it.
HB: Yeah. The Air Force Cross. Yes, but they aren’t, they’re not a common medal. He must have done something Mary!
MF: You what?
HB: He must have done something to earn it! [Laughter] I notice in the photograph of the medals there’s one there that has the look of an Argentinian medal, was that a gratitude medal from Argentina, for his service there? Buenos Aires.
MF: Oh yes. Yes, that’s right.
HB: That’s great.
MF: Yes, we, it’s rather nice, wasn’t it.
HB: Yes it is, very nice medal that one. So in, having gone through all of that time, he’s flown all the aircraft he flew during the Second World War and he’s ended up, he ended up flying Canberras. And where were they stationed?
MF: At Kinloss.
HB: At Kinloss. The photo reconnaissance and surveillance aircraft.
MF: Yes.
HB: So did he ever comment on the change from, the change in technology and aircraft.
MF: Not really, no. We had one tragedy there. There was a dining in night and a message came through that the ‘Truculent’ had gone down in the Thames and Kinloss had the only lifting gear, so Alan asked for a volunteer crew to, would they pick up this lifting gear, take it down to the Thames to get the ‘Truculent’ out.
HB: This was the submarine.
MF: Yes. And he got a volunteer crew. They went and crashed into an aircraft, into a mountain about five miles from Kinloss, just on take off: they were all killed. It was the most dreadful [emphasis] night, awful thing. And of course, well the ‘Truculent’, everybody drowned in the ‘Truculent’. So dreadful night. Always remember that.
HB: That must have affected Alan, quite.
MF: Oh yes, I mean, well it’s so depressing. I had all, we didn’t have any quarters at Kinloss, but we had a very nice flat in a big house in Forres and I had the wives in for supper because it was a dining in night, you know, and next thing was we knew, all the husbands coming up, well Alan and lots of his members, coming up the stairs, to tell these wives that their husbands had been killed.
HB: Oh no!
MF: Awful. Dreadful night, you know. Never forget it.
HB: That was.
MF: Yes. Think, as I say, he asked for a volunteer crew and, well there we are, they all crashed into this. So that was a very sad night at Kinloss.
HB: Yes, yes, it’s, it’s the sort of incident that hits you very personally, it’s so involved.
MF: Oh yes, hm. Yes, I mean we all knew, well we all knew each other so well; I’m very gregarious and so was Alan, we all got on with everybody, you know.
HB: Yes, difficult time.
MF: Yes, very difficult.
HB: Difficult to remember as well, it’s an emotional thing to remember, it’s yes, difficult to talk about, yes. So we’ll come to the end of our supplementary interview, [laughing] that’s very, very kind of you Mary, thank you for letting me record that.
MF: Oh not a bit, I hope you’ll come back!
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AFoisterMS171010, PLairdCraig1701
Title
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Interview with Mary Stanley Foister
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:49:11 audio recording
Creator
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Harry Bartlett
Date
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2017-10-10
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Stanley Foister grew up in Buckinghamshire, where her father's farm was taken over as Bomber Command Headquarters. She served in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force after she left school. Following training, she had a number of administrative posts as PA to high ranking RAF officers. Mary married Alan Craig, a Pathfinder pilot, and had three children. She was posted to several different locations during her service and in her married life before they settled down in Leicestershire. Mary tells of her various experiences during her life associated with the RAF, including flying on the Victory Flypast in London.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Argentina
Brazil
France
Great Britain
Argentina--Buenos Aires
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--London
Brazil--Rio de Janeiro
Scotland--Moray
Temporal Coverage
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1946
1948
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Carolyn Emery
35 Squadron
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Graveley
RAF High Wycombe
RAF Kinloss
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/318/3475/APughA160625.2.mp3
4a2607dfd0ac35fbffecc7cae5c11a55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pugh, Alan
A Pugh
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Alan Pugh.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Pugh, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AdP: Set that up. Just tap this to make sure it’s working. Alright. Get rid of that, sit down, pick up my list of questions and we’ll go. So, like, like I did last time I’ll just do a short introduction.
AlP: Yeah.
AdP: To set the scene.
AlP: That’s alright.
AdP: And we’ll go from there. This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Alan Pugh who was a navigator in training at a Heavy Conversion Unit when the war ended. It’s the 25th of June 2016. We’re at Alan’s nursing home in Warragul in Victoria. My name’s Adam Purcell. Alan, we might start somewhere in the beginning. Can you tell me something about growing up and your early life and first job and schooling and things like that?
AlP: I was at school here. I was born and bred in Warragul. No. Sorry, in Colac, Western Victoria of ordinary parents who — my father was, worked in retail and he was, during the war a sergeant instructor in the Volunteer Defence Corps and was therefore quite keen that I, as a teenager growing toward eighteen in the 40s, early 40s, should go to my choice of the RAAF. And I had been two years by that time in the Air Training Corps once it started up in 1941 or something like that. And I wanted to fly. I just wanted to fly. And so in the process of the period between sixteen, my age of sixteen and eighteen, I did have the opportunity of going to an air force station. It was the south side of Melbourne. Laverton. Which was a service [pause], servicing facility I suppose. And I got the opportunity there for a weekend exercise and had a ride. A ride, I thought in, in an Avro Lanc. No. Not a Lancaster. An Avro Anson. And as I, as I flew over my home town which is only less than a hundred k’s away I had the excitement of seeing my home environment in this unfamiliar sense and that thrilled me to the back teeth. And so I was destined to go in to the RAAF and hopefully aircrew, if they’d accept me, in 1943. January 1943 found me at work. I’d left school. The family economy was not strong. And other members of the family. So I resumed my education by correspondence in the year eleven. By that time also I, I was admitted in the ATC. Air Training Corps. And quite rapidly studied the airmanship, Morse code, aircraft recognition. All those things we did but even, even as well as drill. So in September 1943, my birthday, eighteenth birthday arose. But just before then I received a letter from the military forces telling me that I would need to report to the army base out at western [pauses] Western Melbourne. West Melbourne. What was it Adam? Do you remember?
AdP: West Melbourne.
AlP: The big suburb out there. It’s our big suburb.
AdP: Not Footscray.
AlP: No. It’s further out. Further out.
AdP: Oh right.
AlP: Anyway.
AdP: No. I don’t know.
AlP: I wrote back, and I said that I’d already indicated to ATC that I wanted to join the RAAF and I’d wait for their call up. I received another letter back from them to say that if I don’t receive a call up by, I think it was 7th of October 1943 the first letter stands. I still report to the army base. Fortunately, I got my letter from the RAAF and very early in October I fronted up in Melbourne to, with a bunch of other country lads and city lads who had just recently turned eighteen and we were interviewed and some of us selected to report to Somers, Number 2 ITS, on such and such a date. Which was very, very close to that date. And so we did. And so I was interviewed. Did all the medical tests. All the ones. The intimate ones as well. And Number 46 course commenced during October. And there I found myself AC2. The lowest deck of the RAAF. AC2 Pugh, AH. 438436. Next to me was AC2 Salmon, Ralph — who received the number 438438. And we still see each other periodically these days. We remained friends all that time.
AdP: What, where were you when you heard that war had been declared and what were you doing at the time?
AlP: At school. I was at school. I was probably only second or third form then. The headmaster, AB Jones called us to school assembly. So we went all out in to the quadrangle. Lined up to be told that war has been declared and as of that date Australia, or Britain, the Prime Minister of Britain had declared war on Germany. And as of that date we also were at war.
AdP: What were your feelings when you heard that?
AlP: Pardon me?
AdP: What did you think when you heard that?
AlP: I don’t know what I thought about that. We were all muttering, ‘War. War.’ It’s something. World War One was history we were being taught. Many stories we knew, and we didn’t know what to expect. Hadn’t thought about our own involvement. But our parents. What we got from our parents was pretty much what we, what we thought. This is terrible but we’ll have to do it. Go through it all over again. My dad himself was very quick to offer his services if there was to be a Dad’s Army. But because of us kids and mum he wasn’t prepared to, to enlist. He was over age.
AdP: So, alright, can you, can you tell me something about the interview? The medical process that you were talking about. Briefly.
AlP: No. I can’t remember very much of it. It was, it was height, weight. Stethoscope stuff. Looking at our teeth. I know I had, had to have a couple of fillings very early in my time at Somers. The short arm inspection was the intimate bit. And do I have to describe that? Or would that –?
AdP: Please go ahead.
AlP: It’s an examination of one’s genitals to see that we weren’t [pause] that A) we were male and B that we didn’t have a noxious disease. A noxious disease. I call it noxious. That was a periodical through our career. A warning. Incidentally, of course, also we received, I received the injections for, against smallpox. What do we call that? Vaccination. That was done as well. That’s as much as I remember, Adam.
AdP: So what memories do you have of Somers and your training that you did there?
AlP: Somers. I remember arriving. This bunch of sheds. Cabins I suppose they were. They had belonged to the education department. And moving into there there was a, I seem to remember that there was a Tiger Moth elevated on a pole in front of us and there was an emblazoned sign —RAAF. Number 2 ITS Somers. In there we were soon allocated our uniforms. Full uniform. Plus battledress. Plus forage cap of course. Blue dress uniform. Several shirts. Tie. Underwear. Several underwear. Socks and shoes. And the notorious bag of straw. The pallias. Then we were taken around the various areas. Shown the features including the parade ground which we frequently frequented and the [pause] I don’t think there was a parachute section there. No. That wasn’t. That was later. That was later in the course. There was no need for parachutes because we weren’t — there was no flying at ITS. Then in the classrooms it was a bit much more of ATS. ATC rather. Air Training Corps continued day after day. Study at night for a certain amount of time plus drill. Plus some rifle training. And several route marches along the shore of Somers being a bayside suburb. And I remember the drill instructor. A disastrous boy. I won’t use the other words because there might be children listening. But he was one of those members who exercised his anxiety and anger against trainee aircrew. I heard the rumour that he was a failed candidate himself. So this was his revenge. This may not be true. May not be true but I know he didn’t like two or three of us and exercised some discipline. The boy corporal. I remember, and we almost worshipped the squadron leader Hubert Opperman who was our physical training. Head of physical training. Hubert Opperman was world champion cyclist. Australian world champion cyclist. And Australian being world champion cyclist in a number of areas prior to the war. And I used to watch him in the Warragul — sorry in the Melbourne to Warrnambool race. Annual road race. A hundred and eighty miles. As he travelled through Colac because we would watch every year. Watch that race. The contestants going through. There were contestants from several parts of the world. Hubert Opperman. Big name.
AdP: What did he do? He was a drill instructor or a PT instructor or something?
AlP: He was — no. He was in charge of all that. So I’m not sure what he did but he did operate the exercise class for us with fitness tests and so on. But he didn’t do the work out of the, out on the drill. Drill ground.
AdP: Yeah.
AdP: I don’t remember much else. Indeed, I can’t remember the name of the CO. Nor any of the other officers. The teachers. Those who led the classes. The classes were comprehensive. Maths and more Morse code and more aircraft recognition stuff. That was where we had to learn a vast number of aircraft, I think by the time. By this time Japan was in the war. With a little bunch of [toras?] So we had to recognise American, British, Italian as well. Aircraft. And get to recognise them in part of a second. They were flashed on the screen and we were tested for progressive growth on that. Improvement over the period of the three months.
AdP: What happened at the end of that training?
AlP: The end of the ITS training? Well, among other things we were, in the very last stage they took us, gave us the opportunity of getting of getting onto the link trainer. The link trainer was a device that you sat in and you used your hands, your feet and your eyes to, to focus. Each of these, your impulse, each of your limbs controlled a light. And this, as I remember it, and this could be a bit vague the, as we set in motion a simulated movement but actually we were just rocking around and our, our hands, each hand controlled a light. We had to focus that on another moving post. I don’t know what the moving thing was. It was something on the wall. It maybe was another light. We all, we tried that. That tested our hand and eye and foot coordination. I didn’t like it. I thought this is something I don’t want to be part of. What else have we got? But they gave us the choice actually. Do you want to be pilot? Do you want to be a navigator? Do you want to be a wireless operator? No one offered to be an air gunner. We all wanted to be one of those three I guess. I think most of the guys wanted to be a pilot. I liked the academic aspect, if you can call it that, Adam, of the study and the work. We had some prelimary work on map reading and navigation. Map plotting and so on and I rather liked that. So when it came to the choice of what we wanted to be I was amazed that I wanted, that they gave us a choice. And I said, ‘Please sir, I choose to be a navigator trainee.’ We were called, it was called air observer at the time. Alias navigator/bomber. Navigator/bomb aimer. And that would be probably a second last week we were at Somers. The last week we were summoned to parade in our chosen [pause] where we were advised before this [pause] after that, after that, that period. The last week we were advised whether or not we had achieved our choice. And I had. I’d achieved mine. And just before the end of the week we were paraded in our, in our chosen trades. There were thirty two of us from that course, 46 Course, Somers who wanted to be navigators. Two of them were Dutch. One a mixed-race Dutch Indonesian. And they were told that, ‘You will be staying in Australia. You remainder thirty. You are on final leave as from now and you’ll be going to Canada. And you will be, you are to report to,’ such and such a spot. A place in [pause], it was in, at Spencer Street Station. That’s right. We were to report such and such a date, at such and such a time at Spencer Street Station early in January. This by the way by now we were in, we were in December. We went on final leave. Sent home to tell our parents. Took me five days before I could tell my mother. She hinted at it. Dad wasn’t at all worried. Dad was a very loyal Australian would-be soldier. And then he accompanied me to Melbourne that day. That date. We got to Spencer Street Station. Got on the Sydney Express. Said a tearful goodbye and off to Sydney for embarkation to Canada. Got to Sydney and there was a slight change of plan. And the change of plan was that we were leaving from Melbourne. Oh well, I thought. There were no perfect organisations in the world. There was only one perfect person and that was a long time ago. So we were, I think only a day or two in Sydney and back. Back to Melbourne and we left the train at Flinders Street. Or Spencer Street it would have been wouldn’t it? And entrained then or bussed I suppose it was. We were bussed to Melbourne Cricket Ground. The last time I was in Melbourne Cricket Ground I was standing on a wooden box watching a test match between England and Australia.
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Seven years earlier. I was eleven. Here I am now. Eighteen. With the privilege of sleeping on the concrete stands at the cricket ground. The Grandstand of the cricket ground. And with, again with a cursed pallias to sleep on and given four days, indicated that in four days we would be leaving fully equipped with the, to go, to go, to be embarked from Port Melbourne but this was secret. We were not to let anybody know. It was too be highly secret. We were, the day before we, we left by train we were given a message. We were the day before we would rise at 4am and we would, I don’t think we even ate. We were to pick up our gas masks, our eating irons, our equipment and our bag of course. Our sausage bag. Have you seen the sausage bags Adam? The long.
AdP: The kit bag.
AlP: The kit bag. Yeah. And marched across the cricket ground. Around it perhaps, would have been. Around the cricket ground to the railway line which ran the further, this is the southern side of the Melbourne Cricket Ground. And that was the southernmost line through Flinders Street Station. It was late but never mind. We, we all embarked, and the train took off on a very halting journey to, through Flinders Street Station. Still a bit dark, but not quite as dark as had been. The idea was to be we were travelling in secret. And by the time we were travelled through the main traffic stream in South Melbourne it was 8 o’clock. Full daylight and traffic everywhere and people waving and seeing us on the train and, ‘Good bye boys.’ ‘All the best boys.’ All this sort. The most publicity we could have got. Down to the ship on the port at Port Melbourne. It was the USS Hermitage. An American. An American troop ship. And a pretty old ship. And on, on board we encountered some American GIs. A lot of them. A lot of [pause] quite a few Chinese civilian refugees and some Russian civilian refugees on different, different decks from us. We were given a small portion of one of the first deck I think. Upper deck. And then there was quite a lot of, below decks, a load of Lascars. Indian seamen. Merchant seamen on their way to America. Probably to pick up new, new ships. Whether they’d lost their ships. Whether they’d been sunk or what we didn’t know. We didn’t have any relationships with them. They were kept away from us. In fact everyone was kept away from us. We were about, well besides us Victorian members from ITS, navigators and bomb aimers and wireless operators we had the ones from Sydney as well. Maybe some from other states. I don’t know. We all came back in the trains anyway together. Back from Sydney to Melbourne as I described earlier. And on one bright sunny January morning we made our way out of Port Phillip into Bass Strait on our way to the US. California. January 1944. A hot and beautiful summer. And very soon we started a rather haphazard course. Zig zag course. And within a few days it was getting cold. And then it got quite cold and we couldn’t understand it. We were going to California. We reasoned it out of course that our course was taking us south of New Zealand and it wasn’t until we noticed, noticed clearly that we were on a north east.
[background voices regarding blood pressure tests]
Other: Hello. Alan, it’s Meredith.
AlP: Meredith. Yes. Meredith. Nurse. This is my friend Adam. He’s interviewing me again.
Other: Gents, I’m really sorry to interrupt. I know you’re right in the middle of stories but Alan I do need to do your blood pressure again and go through those questions that we ask.
AlP: Yes.
Other: Because I’m just about to ring the doctor. Sorry.
AdP: No worries. I’ll cut it out later. I’m quite used to it.
AlP: You’re happy to stay Adam?
AdP: Yeah. No worries. If you’re happy with that.
AlP: I had a fall this morning. Not a major one but I skinned my toe.
AdP: Oh bugger.
Other: Alan, can you tell us where we are?
AlP: Where we are? Yes. We’re in my room in Fairview Homes at Fairview Village. And in Warragul.
Other: Well done. And what’s today’s date?
AlP: Today’s date is Saturday the 25th of January.
Other: Oh will we change the January bit?
AlP: Yeah. I’ve just been talking about January. I’m sorry. January 1943 I’ve been talking about. Let’s call it June.
Other: Alright. Good. And what season would that be?
AlP: What season?
AdP: That’s going to confuse him to.
AlP: It’s as cold as it could be. It must be winter.
AdP: We’re just talking about on the boat. On the way from Australia to the US when it was summer in Australia and then it was getting cold and they couldn’t figure out why. That’s literally what we were talking about as you walked through the door.
Other: Oh and so here I am. There’s no doubt here why it’s cold.
AdP: No.
AlP: No doubt here.
The sun is too far away from us.
AlP: Yeah.
Other: Now.
AlP: Yeah.
Other: You forget that sort of travel where you actually experience the changes as you go.
AdP: That’s right.
Other: Whereas you now get teleported from one side to the other and bang you’ve gone from summer to winter.
AdP: Well if you imagine the heat on this ship.
Other: Of course.
AlP: The heat of — the heat of January.
Other: Yeah.
AlP: The heat of January.
Other: Yes.
AlP: And the ship was heading in a southerly direction. We couldn’t understand why. Well we were dodging enemy, enemy shipping.
Other: Ok yeah. Yeah.
AlP: So we went right south of New Zealand.
Other: Yes.
AlP: And then gradually ending up towards America.
[Background chat and blood pressure checks etc]
Other: Well, it’s obviously an exciting story because your blood pressure is up a bit.
AlP: That’s right. I hope the blood pressure is down a bit. Not too far down though.
Other: No. Up a bit Alan. Up a bit.
AlP: Is it?
Other: Yes. It is.
AlP: Probably it’s because I’m excited talking to my friend.
Other: Yeah. That’s what I mean. Yeah. It’s all good.
AlP: It’s not every day I have a microphone pinned on me.
AdP: No.
Other: Adam are you doing this for your studies?
AdP: It’s a project for a group called the International Bomber Command Centre in the UK.
Other: Oh right.
AdP: They’re developing a digital archive of oral histories and scans of photos and logbooks and all that sort of stuff.
Other: So you’re an historian.
AdP: I’m not an historian. I’m actually an air traffic controller. But that’s another story. But deeply interested in the Bomber Command sort of idea and they got very excited when they found out that I lived in Melbourne because they said, ‘We don’t have an interviewer in Melbourne yet.’ So now I’ve done twenty three of them.
Other: Oh wow. So you would have heard some extraordinary stories.
AdP: There are some astonishing stories out there.
AlP: Oh yes.
Other: My, this gets a bit convoluted but it’s my sister’s father in law so my brother in law’s father. Whichever way you’d like to look at it. He was, well he not a commander. Who sits in the tail? A navigator?
AdP: The tail gunner sits in the tail.
AlP: Tail gunner.
AdP: Rear gunner.
Other: So he was a tail gunner. And in, is it G for George?
AlP: G-George yes that’s the famous.
Other: Yeah. That’s right. Because they restored it.
AdP: Yes.
Other: And he was the tail gunner for —
AdP: Very good.
Other: Yeah. So unusual in the fact that he could tell the story. That’s not so usual.
[interview resumes]
AdP: Where were we? We were zigzagging. It was getting colder.
AlP: It was getting colder. We came up and we stopped and we soon learned from word of gossip that we were at Pago Pago. Refuelling. Pago Pago was part of the port of Samoa. A Samoan port. Samoan America. American Samoa I should say. Samoa is an independent nation. It was a British colony. Part of it was American. Two islands. The second island was Pago Pago. So we were refuelling there so we realised we’d been south of New Zealand. Up here and we were now into the mid-Pacific. And we zigzagged all the way across there until we arrived in California another two and a bit weeks later having only once been alarmed that there was, could be enemy shipping around. Because as Japan was in the war they had a number of submarines known to be in The Pacific. And Germany had, from the beginning of the war and around the Australian coast even and sunk a lot of allied shipping with their raiders. Their war ships disguised as, as traders. Trading boats. Very humble trading boats. They were, they had, one of their bases was on the island of Goa which, the Portuguese positions off the coast, off the west coast of India. There’s a great story about that. About how [pause] oh it’s not my story. So we, we got through safely and landed there and went on to an American base, military base and stayed there for three days before we were entrained then to go up to, up to the east — west coast of California. Up into the next two states to the edge. To the border of Canada. Vancouver. To the city of Vancouver. That’s at the — British [pause] sorry. I’m trying to think it was the province of Canada it’s [pause] Never mind. Anyway, Vancouver was the city where we left the American train which was luxury. We’d had black American staff cleaning our shoes each day. Not that they got dirty because there was nowhere to walk. We stayed on the train all that time. We then entrained across to, across Canada on Canadian National Railway I think it was. On our way to drop off the bomb aimers, the wireless operators who would be trained at Calgary. At Calgary, we changed trains and headed north to Edmonton. Still in Alberta. The southern, the province of Alberta where we navs and bomb aimers were to do our training at Number 2 Air Observers School. 96 Course, Edmonton, Alberta. That took us a couple more days to get there. Big state. Big states those, those provinces. And that’s where we started in. By this time I guess we were to February, and perhaps late January and where ever we looked from the time we got out towards Calgary it was snow. There was snow. On top of that at Calgary there was more snow. It was snow from one region to another. There was snow for the next three months. How, we thought, can you learn to navigate over snow? There was nothing else, we thought, to be seen. Certainly not from the train. That was the reaction. Is that useful or not?
AdP: That was very useful. I like it. Ok. So how did you learn to navigate over snow, is the obvious question?
AlP: That was a good one. Well. Yes. We were now part of the Empire Air Training Scheme of course. We’d known a little about this in our, in our indoctrination. Here we gathered together with New Zealanders, with Canadians, with Brits who’d been sent over from Britain to Canada for their navigation training and their ITS. So we were all, we thought there would all be a bunch of eighteen years olds but we weren’t. There were fellows who were Australians in our, among ours number, we learned this on-board ship, who had been in the Middle East. In the army. In the AIF. And they had re-enlisted in the air force. They wanted to fly. There were new Zealanders also of the same category who’d been away. And they were, some of them were of a commissioned rank. And they were reduced to working with us AC2s. By this time we were LACs by the way. By the time we’d graduated from ITS we were promoted to LAC. Leading aircraftsmen. Interesting thing about the New Zealanders, by the way we all wanted to keep our own uniforms and our uniform being dark blue uniforms stood out like dog’s hind legs and but the New Zealanders they kept theirs too. Canadian kept theirs. And the British of course had the original. But the New Zealanders kept their rank as they were training. As did the Australians. Now, the Australians, their rank was a military rank. Whether they were lieutenants or captain or what. I don’t think they’d be any higher than a captain. They lost their, temporarily lost their rank but it was being held for them for when they graduated. If they didn’t graduate I suppose they’d still get it back. The New Zealanders kept their rank right through and they ate with the officer’s in the officer’s mess which didn’t worry us too much I suppose. So we started in a pretty luxurious kind of a station compared to what we’d been used to in ITS. We had real beds and sheets. We had our own shower rooms and so on. And then, and the sports facilities were very good. And being winter there was an ice rink. That was the tennis courts were covered over and the, and we were able to learn to, learn to skate. I’m not sure whether that was part of our training or part of our recreation. Studying we moved in to refreshments of stuff we learned at ITS. Then quickly moved into navigation and bomb aiming and the learning of the principals and the use. How we used the mathematics into, into our study now of the navigation in reality. It would include, by the way, astro navigation. So we were doing night flying as well as day. Day flying. So we used our maths, particularly the trigonometry for understanding triangulation which you need to, to navigate. You get, you need three points of reference and whether you are on the land or whether you’re land based with your, with your map reading. Or we learned map reading of course as a very basic principle. But to navigate you need three points of reference and you draw a line from those and where those three lines intersect is where you are on the land. Same principle when you’re doing astro navigation except you’re looking upwards rather than downwards. We didn’t have any radar there. We had, of course we had Morse code for the wireless operators to work on. I think we, I think we must have had staff wireless operators. We had staff pilots because there was no pilot training at Edmonton. Certainly had staff pilots. And they took us on their chosen pre-selected courses. A cross-country programme using a triangular one. We even, despite the snow, we did find points of reference. They were often wheat silos that could be identified from reference material that we had. There was a vast amount of wheat produced in Western Canada. Middle of Canada as well. We did a lot more practicals. Practical stuff on, on the ground in a simulated flight condition. A room set up with your desk and your implements which included [pause] straight, a straight rule. This is metric, metric by now. No. It wasn’t. No. No, it wasn’t. A ruler. A compass. A thing we called a computer which was actually a box, rectangular box with whatever inside. We didn’t ever know. But you pressed buttons and pulled levers and that showed on a screen where we were from the references we’d taken from this map reading or this site. Site thing. Of course I didn’t mention the, the [pause] instrument we used for photographing the stars.
AdP: Sextant.
AlP: Yes. The pause] what did you say?
AdP: A sextant maybe.
AlP: The sextant. The sextant of course, yes, the sextant. And we had a series of maps of course and we had, with our log book beside us and from here, from — the principle was that we read off our positions by taking into consideration wind velocity and direction. And which is, I think to say the direction is part of it. No it’s not. And our plotted course and see the variation. The difference between our course as to whether we instructed the pilot to fly and the actual track which we were to follow. So if, depending on the strength of the, of the velocity of the, of the wind we would allow a certain number of degrees to port or starboard of the one plotted on the track so that the wind would take us back and relocate us on, on course. When we say on course we really meant on track. And of course because there was an interval between the different readings of these sites we we’d seen on the map. The reference points. We had to plot our airspeed. Or what we believed was our ground and what we believed was our ground speed along the, along the track to make the appropriate adjustments and then still plan to be within three minutes of the, of ETA. Estimated time of arrival at the given point that we were on track for. So that, when the, in the Avro Anson was not very difficult because it wasn’t a very speedy. We travelled around about a hundred and forty, a hundred and fifty knots. I think. I don’t know. Do you know any better than that Adam?
AdP: That sounds about, about reasonable I think.
AlP: Yeah.
AdP: Something like that.
AlP: Yeah. So of course that became a bit easier in some respects. The ground was daylight flying as the snow melted. And it melted quite quickly. To our amazement.
[someone enters the room — recording paused]
AdP: Where weren’t we? The snow. The melting snow.
AlP: Yes. Melting snow. So the time was going past very quickly. Our bomb aiming testing was being, would also be included. Then again decided completely whether we’d all be, which of us would be navigators or bomb aimers. But that there was a chosen aiming point sometimes was connected with this exercise. Flying a navigation exercise. Sometimes just straight out from base. We dropped flour bombs would you believe? Twenty five pound flour bombs. And they, why they used flour because? Well they would break of course but they would leave a mark and that mark could be measured by ground staff from the point of, from the aiming point. The distance from the aiming point. And we were qualified. We were marked if you like by that, by our score on how close we were to that aiming point. That’s about all we did. Whether we did that at the end of an exercise. A navigation exercise or separately. It did vary. With, with astro navigation we did a lot more study. We had to night study in that. Because the earth is continually moving on its orbit and in relation to the rest of the stars of the firmament and the, and the various, and the North Star in particular varies. I think there’s four degrees in a year. Let me get this right. Four degrees either way of the North Pole. The North Pole is not strictly north anyway. And we were given logbooks. Remember the logarithm books you had at school? We were given those. That sort of book. And they made it, gave every, the relationship of every major star and the North Star and earth at any minute of the hour of the day in a particular month. I think, I think it’s as accurate as I can give it. But every day you saw something different. So we’d be out on a Monday night, for instance, out in the, in the airfields with our sextants and shooting three stars. The North Star first. Another one would be [pause] oh golly. Let me think of this a moment. The constellations I can remember clearly in view in my mind’s eye including the one we see here as the pot. It’s the only one that can be seen. The north ones we can see from here.
AdP: That’s right.
AlP: Anyway, we’d see two other stars. One to our north. North east and another perhaps to our south east of us or south west. And, and take the reading off the sextant and then plot. Plot it and then on across a map of our territory, of northern Canada. And then two minutes later plot one of the other ones. Plot that across the map. And I’m blowed if I can remember now where the third one — how, how we used that little log book to to tell us where we were exactly. You’ll have to go back to your friends with all the navigation equipment.
AdP: Yes.
AlP: He’ll tell you. It just escapes my mind. You know, we learned that. We spent weeks of that in the latter part of our course in, in Edmonton because it was going to be important in Europe we thought. So it was told. And we did our night flying and with, with that sextant again out through the blister on top of the Avro Anson. We had, we had a better and more modern sextant, a sextant. It plotted sixty shots in a minute. It took sixty shots and when we plotted it, plotted the average of that on to our chart I can remember doing that. But when we did flying and the aircraft was moving you don’t get a perfect cross. So you can try and get a cross like that and how big it is or how small it is depends on the weather. How much you’ve being buffeted by the wind. So it was a bit haphazard. We, so we, this took us now well into June and we had our examinations in June. I finished up in hospital just about the time of the examination. I’d had an accident. Not a flying accident. An accident on the ground and injured my leg and I was admitted for a few days. So I had a little bit of extra time to study. Went through, did our exams and came the time of graduation. A party was held. It was great. We’d been saving up the liquor, the alcohol, for some weeks. And I didn’t drink. Those who did didn’t need it evidently. So the party was held and we had friends in Edmonton that we invited and came but the graduation ceremony was before that. I had some photos of all the graduates and I’ve lost them since my wife died and we closed up our house. Sold our house. And I don’t know where those things, some of those things went. Anyway, I graduated as a navigator with an N wing and sergeant’s stripes. Two or three of our team, of our course graduated as pilot officers. Maybe. Maybe more than three. They were the ones who got the best marks in the course. In the written course I guess and their performances over their charts. Their charts were all examined at the end of your flights and you were marked on those too, no doubt. So I was ready to leave Canada as a sergeant navigator. A week later we were, went by train to Toronto and down to New York for some furlough. Some leave. A week in New York. In New Jersey where we were hosted by American people. Great fun. Great time. We were robbed by taxi drivers. We were travelling in a group in a taxi. Charged each one for the fare on the meter, lousy. That was the only bad thing I’ve got to say. Climbed. Climbed the Empire Building. Empire [pause] what’s it called?
AdP: Empire State Building.
AlP: Empire State Building. Taken up there on the lift. Got taken up in the actual head of the Statue of Liberty. Climbed the ladders inside that. These were privileges. Really great. Then at the end of that time we went back by train. Back down to Halifax in, what’s the state? What’s the province?
AdP: Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia.
AlP: Nova Scotia. That’s right.
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Down to Nova Scotia. On board a big ship. A very big ship. A lot of troops. A lot of American troops and a few, quite a few Empire Air State, Empire Air Training people from different places. Courses terminating about that time. And we zig zagged across the North Atlantic to arrive in, by this was summertime now of course. July. August. It was, it was early August we arrived in, at Liverpool in Manchester. Near Manchester of course. And from Liverpool bussed across to a holding station called Padgate. Well known. It’s a suburb. Quite a big suburb of Manchester. A Mancunian friend of mine knows it well. We were there for two weeks. No. We were there for one week. Why would they hold us here for? We want to get to the war. We’re here for the war. We were trained. We were quite excited. We didn’t see any effects of the war yet. And then we were summoned and entrained to go down to London. That’s when we saw the effects of the war. It was appalling. We, it’s quite a long journey from, from Manchester to London and we passed through a lot of towns. Saw some damage. But London. The thing is, that grieved us most there was, it still brings tears to my eyes. We weren’t going to stay in London. London we were only passing through. We were going to Victoria Station to go down to Brighton, and every station we passed through on the underground there was lined along double decker bunks. On every platform of every station. People bombed out. We had seen a little of the bomb damage at Euston. Was it Euston Station? I think it was where we embarked. Where we disembarked we saw a bit of damage there but by the time we got in to [pause] to Victoria we saw a lot more outside. Above ground. Down to Brighton. Down there for two weeks. Why? Holding us there at the two hotels. The [pause] Royal and the, I forget what it was. Air force property, RAF property for the duration of the war. And there was some damage in Brighton. There was some damage in most places I guess. We, the Blitz was long since over but the V1s were about. And we could go up and sit on the top deck of the, of the hotels, and we did this, watching the V1s go over, the buzz bombs, filling in time, filling in time. Eventually we got told to go on leave in London. Somewhere we could go on leave and I chose to go to London. I wanted to see more of the damage. I wanted to see St Paul’s. I wanted to see all those things that we’d learned about at school. And then I saw the damage, extensive damage around St Paul’s. Man. And, and along the river. Well, we took off. We were entrained after that two weeks to go up to north east England. Up to [pause] to do a commando course. Again, we were saying, some of us we were together from Somers, still together, quite a few of us. And what are we doing here? This commando course. The town, I can’t think of the name of the town but it was a town. It had a lot of damage as well but the air force had taken over quite a bit of it for accommodation for the commando training and other army uses as well. We got halfway through that course and we were called back and they said, ‘You’re leaving tomorrow and you’re flying. You’re going across to North Wales.’ So can you imagine? Manchester, London, Brighton, up here to North England and across here. A triangle. I used a triangle for navigation. And there we went back, back on to a little place called Llandwrog. Got to say it properly —L L A N D W R O G. Welsh town. Welsh township nearby. This air force station again had Avro Ansons and it was an Advanced Flying Unit. AFU. And we had to do a refresher on what we had. All our flying, navigation flying in, in Edmonton, but much compressed. Started off with day flying and, and map reading. That was easy enough. And even, even reading day flying using points of reference because there were so many of them in the North West Wales, North Wales and the Western England. Manchester, Lancaster, Lancashire and those, those counties. And I’m not sure, I don’t think I did any astro there. Three weeks or four weeks there and we were, we were discharged if you like. Taken out of there, going to Number 17 OTU. Operational Training Unit of course. Now where was that? [pause] It was in the north, in the Midlands. I can’t think where it is but you’d find it easy enough.
AdP: 17 OTU is it?
AlP: 17 OTU.
AdP: I can’t remember off the top of my head.
AlP: And there we, we met a lot of Canadians, Americans, sorry Brits, more Australians, Kiwis and so on. And the day after we arrived, like two days after we arrived we were told to gather at, our group anyway, we were told to gather at such and such a hangar. Went over to the hangar there. A crowd of blokes around there, and quite a lot of Australians. They said, ‘You can find yourself a crew there. Pilots have a look. Have a look around you pilots and see if you can find yourself a crew.’ That’s how, and that’s how we were mustered, gathered there. We picked out. An Australian bloke came over to me and he said, ‘Have you got anyone to fly with? Have you got a pilot to go with?’ I said, ‘Not yet. I’ve only just arrived.’ He said, ‘Where were you trained?’ I told him where. He said, ‘Are you alright?’ ‘Yeah,’ I said, ‘I’m alright I think. I got very strong marks.’ ‘Would you like to join me?’ I said, ‘Ok. Yeah. Thanks.’ So then he gathered his bomb aimer and his wireless operator and two gunners just likewise, six crew. So we started flying in a couple of days time and we were told, and it was lousy weather even though it was now September. It was lousy weather. We were told to, not to fly if we caught a cold. Too many people were catching cold. Our crew were dead keen. We wanted to get ahead and I caught a cold. And so stupid me. And my ears blew out. One ear did. My right ear blew out. It was so painful it was awful and I got deafened. And of course had to report sick and I was grounded. Grounded for six weeks. I said goodbye to my crew, they gathered another navigator. They moved on. So six weeks. I don’t know what I did. I don’t remember what I did. I just floated around at that time. Reporting sick, reported until I was well enough and there was another mustering of trainees at the hangar. And I gathered. I gathered. I was summoned to gather with them and an Englishmen, tall Englishmen named Johnny Bulling, Flight lieutenant, approached me. I thought, flight lieutenant? He must be good. He must have a lot of experience. And I said, ‘Yes, sir.’ He said, ‘You can drop the sir.’ He said, ‘Have you crewed up yet?’ I said, ‘Not yet sir. I’ve been on a crew. I’ve done some flying but I was grounded through a bit of illness.’ He said, ‘Want to join me?’ I said, ‘Thank you.’ And that’s how he gathered his crew. Jock someone or other. I’m trying to think of his surname — pilot officer bomb aimer. He gathered him in. Bernie Alden Hogan, Australian sergeant wireless operator or air gunner, gathered him in. And then two Londoners, Ernie, no, not Ernie. Peter and [pause] who was the other one? I can’t think of his name. The other one was about thirty years of age. He was much the older of our crew. They gathered. We gathered them in. And the next day we were doing circuits and bumps in a, on a Wimpy. And that’s how our crew started.
AdP: What did you think of a Wellington?
AlP: Pardon?
AdP: What did you think of the Wellington?
AlP: I thought it was a lovely big aircraft. That’s what I thought at that time. I had heard bad stories about it. But it was a bit cramped in my space but what I started to learn was that funny instrument. It looked like, I was going to say, with a small TV but it was a small screen. What was that? It was called a Gee. What that’s about? That’s when I started to learn about the Gee navigation. And the other one there was the one with the [pause] that transmitted a signal and brought back another picture of the land underneath. Well that was wonderful. It makes it a lot easier to do your map reading. Except you couldn’t use it over enemy territory because it transmitted a signal and you, you were a sitting duck. So, but it was handy once you got back to, back home base. And then we started to learn Gee navigation and I loved it. It was great stuff. I mean you could, you plotted these three signals. Do you understand it at all Adam?
AdP: Only, only very vaguely.
AlP: Well it has three transmitters. One in the southernmost England, one in the Midlands and one in the north.
[recording paused for lunch]
AdP: So we’re resuming after lunch. We were talking about Gee I think.
AlP: On reflection Adam I think we might have been introduced to it over at Llandwrog. At AFU. Just introduced so that we knew that there was more to it than we’d been doing in Canada. There was no mention that we were doing any astro navigation. So when we got to OTU and went out with my first crew and then, of course after I was grounded, my second crew. Six weeks interval is a long time in a war. In an air war anyway and I mean think of the time that was wasted by the time we landed. It probably amounted to about twelve, fourteen weeks lost battle time if you like. Lost purpose time. Anyway, I guess we did strengthen our muscles a little bit with our course of body training at commando course. So, I’m with my second crew now. Johnny Bulling’s crew and we were given a lot of a programme ahead, a lot of cross country flying. Incidentally, I should remember about 17 OTU. I can’t think of the name of the station. The satellite station was Silverstone. Now, Silverstone has since been a motor raceway for many decades. So if you find out what county Silverstone’s in, Silverstone Raceway, you’ll find where Number 17 OTU is and what county. I have a feeling it might be Lincolnshire, but no I’m not sure really. So then it was, by this time it was October. Weather’s getting bad, quite bad. We were flying in rotten conditions. Wind, rain, sleet and snow. So on. And we finished at OTU. Actually by this time we’d moved over to the satellite. I don’t know why that happened. Anyway, we did. And we were sent on leave. Sent on leave. Six weeks. Six days I think. So Johnny said, ‘What you are going to do?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. What do you reckon?’ He said, ‘If you’d like to come over we can go to Devon and get warm because this is shocking, this stuff.’ I said, ‘Right we will.’ So we went off on leave. I went off with him and the other Englishmen went off to their home places no doubt, and Jock the Scotsman. And I don’t know what Bernie did. I think he had a girlfriend somewhere. And so we went to London. We said we’ll stay over in London for a night. Go to a show. So we, we, got digs, a room, a room in somewhere out at Earl’s Court, which is West End. And spent the night there and that night I bounced out of bed. I remember clearly I landed on the floor. ‘What’s wrong?’ A V1, V2 — the second rocket. The long ones, the big self-propelled, landed. Sent out from the coast of Normandy and landed into London. They sent, they sent hundreds of those. This is, this is the successor to the V2s which were less efficient, still pretty nasty. And it landed not far from us evidently and it was a heck of an explosion and it bounced me out of bed. So, I don’t think I slept any more that night waiting for the next lot to come. Fortunately that landed in the Thames somewhere. I can’t imagine which direction it came from. Anyway it was said many of those V2 rockets landed in less serious or less serious targets than the Germans hoped. The next day we headed south, down. Took the train down to Devon and we stayed there at a — walked and looked up the street. Walked up the street. Found a hotel. Found we could get a room there and we stayed there for six days. Swimming on the coast down at the beach. Actually that afternoon we stripped off. Johnny put on, put on civilian pants and I didn’t have any civilian pants but I had my spare uniform pants so I didn’t worry about it. Went down and laid down on the beach and did a bit of sunbathing. The tide came in on us. We got wet but anyway we worked that out in the night. The next day we went walking. We did a lot of walking that week. It was excellent. I’ve written a story about our encounter with a land, a groundsman, who caught us walking through these fields. He was [pause] we were heading back in late afternoon, heading back to the hotel in the township. And we were running a bit late. We had walked a bit too far and we were walking and this fellow came around the corner behind a hedge with a shotgun cocked over his arm and he said, ‘What be thee doing?’ Well, we got a shock you see. And we said, oh Johnny said, ‘We’re just walking back to our hotel. We’re on leave.’ I don’t think we were in uniform. We were probably only in trousers and shirt. It was lovely weather. Beautiful. And he said, ‘Well thee can’t be doing that here. Now get thee off this land.’ And I got cheeky. I said, ‘Why? We aren’t doing any harm. We’re only going to walk in a straight line. It’s too round about on the road. We get back quicker this way. In time for dinner.’ ‘I don’t care what thee be thinking. Get thee off this land.’ I said, ‘Who said we should get off this land.’ ‘This be my lord’s land. Now get thee off.’ And we did. We did. Very, very belligerent he was. But I thought well if they can be that belligerent as civilians we should win this war.
AdP: [laughs] Love it.
AlP: So we returned to our given destination which was 1661 HCU at a place called Winthorpe. Do you know it?
AdP: I do.
AlP: You know I lay awake for an hour last night trying to think of that.
AdP: Oh dear.
AlP: I did. Winthorpe. I thought of all sorts. Winthorne? No that doesn’t sound not right. What sort of –? And I think that’s, what county’s that in? Can you remember?
AdP: It’s near Newark.
AlP: Near Newark is it?
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: New Castle.
AdP: Nottinghamshire maybe. I don’t know.
AlP: New Castle.
AdP: I’ve no idea.
AlP: That’s the castle that’s on one of the brands of cigarettes. So there we were. We lined up there and I saw my first Lancaster.
AdP: What did you think the first time you saw a Lancaster?
AlP: Wow. What a machine. I still think of it. I saw it in London a couple of, four years ago. Saw it in Canberra again. G for George. I don’t know. So we did circuits and bumps the next day and Johnny hadn’t, I think he’d seen them before but he hadn’t flown them before. So we went around and around around and around. I was sure we had to swing the prop for that for the, for the compass. I don’t think. I think it was an advanced compass. Anyway, we got inside it and I thought it looked, it was massively crammed, my gee it was cramped. And I was overwhelmed again. ‘Am I responsible for this aircraft? Am I? Have I got the authority on this wonderful machine?’ I was, even now I’m enthralled and we set off to do circuits and bumps and then did our position. Got filled in with our positions on the aircraft to — we added another member here by the way. This was when Peter Smith came in, went to our crew as air [pause] well virtually co-pilot but he was called —
AdP: Flight engineer.
AlP: What was he called?
AdP: Flight engineer.
AlP: Engineer. Flight engineer, Flight engineer, that’s right. We had slightly different positions. I was sitting right behind the pilot as the navigator and the wireless op behind. Funny thing in our crew, you know. We were the two Australians but we weren’t good buddies. I don’t know why but he was less than friendly but he was co-operative and we had to work a lot together. But Jock, the Scotsman, the co-pilot, the err the bomb aimer, he was very co- operative. The air gunners were wonderful young blokes. Johnny and I got on very well. I must tell you. Go back to when we were in London. We were walking along the street together. Along Fleet Street actually up from Australia House. I went to see if there was any mail for me. The mail was sometimes delayed as we were moving around. And walking along and we were stopped by a corporal with a service policeman arm band, ‘Excuse me sir,’ he said to Johnny, ignoring me, ‘It is not permissible for an NCO to walk with a commissioned officer.’ And I was ready to explode. And Johnny said, ‘Quite right corporal. You are quite right. Flight Sergeant Pugh you will fall in behind and at my command we will quick march. Quick march.’ So we walked up Fleet Street marching. He did it. He did it. We got around the corner and stopped it. Wondered what people thought of these stupid fellas. We can’t win a war with these sort of fellows. Anyway, we were —that was just one digression. He was a good artist. He used to do portraits and he was excellent. He did, he did a book of illustrations for his job, his profession. And we used to write. Write poems together. Write songs together. Make up songs as we were going along. We saw one fellow come along the street that day. A little civilian in some sort of a suit. He had a tiny moustache like a toothbrush, and he held his head upright. And Johnny said, ‘There’s that fellow that looks like he’s got a smell under his nose. And I said, there was current song then, “I’ll walk alone.” I don’t know if you know that song, “I’ll walk alone”, a war song anyway. And so we, and we added the lines as we walked, “I’ll walk alone because even my best friends won’t tell me, yet I know they could smell me. It seems I have BO. Oh yes I know. I’ll walk alone.”
[someone enters the room. Recording paused]
AdP: We were talking about, oh you were telling me the song about BO.
AlP: Oh yes. I’ll walk alone because even my best friends won’t tell me. Even though they could smell me. It seems I had BO. Oh yes I know. I’ll walk alone. Although though I try my own preparation. Still I smell like a station. Or like a zoo. What can I do? No one will come near me. And I wonder why. Sometimes I smell myself. I’ve no one to cheer me. So until I die I suppose I will always be on the shelf. I walk alone. I walked alone until somebody told me at last boy. Now at last I have a wife boy. I am not alone.” That was paraphrased on a song, “I walk alone until you come back from the war” and that sort of stuff. So it was pretty, pretty cheeky of us. And we did this walking along the street in London. No wonder they won the war. They wanted to get away from us. Are you still there Adam?
AdP: I’m still here. Certainly am. What other sorts of things did you get up to on leave?
AlP: On leave? Well we had dates with girls. We certainly did that. We found there’s a Cricklewood Palace somewhere out in North London. It was a very popular dance hall and whenever I was in London I’d go down there. I met a girl there and she was, I found her interesting and she worked in one of the big retail stores in London. One of the big names. And as I was working in Coles I was part of the Coles organisation. At that stage just an ordinary hand in a country town but going back to being in the management training plan. So she and I got friendly. And when I went down to London I’d pick her up and we’d go to a dance out there together. It was a very popular place but unfortunately one night a brawl broke out. We were a bunch of, I don’t know, a bunch of Brits and Australians and there was some, we were all in uniform and there was a brawl against some Americans. The Yanks of course were subject to being attacked. Sometimes they attacked some of us if we gave them any cheek. It was unfortunate. There were two wars going on. There were a lot of Americans in Britain at the time. Some back on leave, some back wounded, some ready to go out to the front again. They lost heavily in the war. But you know the biggest single unit loser in World War Two? [pause] Bomber Command. We lost more men and crews in proportion to our numbers. I think, I think it was there were a hundred and twenty five thousand members of Bomber Command. That might have included ground staff, I’m not sure. You might be able to check.
AdP: No. That’s aircrew.
AlP: That’s aircrew.
AdP: Aircrew only. Yeah.
AlP: I’ve heard of fifty two [pause] fifty two thousand. Fifty five thousand perished. There were ten thousand Australians among those. And four thousand, no four hundred, no. Wait a minute, four thousand two hundred of us didn’t return, so that’s forty two percent. Fifty five percent was the loss ratio for the, it might have been less than fifty five out of a hundred and twenty five. Over fifty percent anyway. We were the biggest losers in proportion. What else did we do on leave? We cycled. We went on, went on trips up to the Lake District. Things like that. Sometimes together as two or three of us. Sometimes alone. Met a lot of interesting people when you go with your peers. Played tennis when we could. Played cricket when we could. I went to the first test match after the war. We’ll talk about it a bit later. But you ask a question.
AdP: Where did you — where and how did you live on the stations?
AlP: We lived in Nissen huts mostly. They were comfortable. We had blankets. Didn’t have sheets. That I can recall anyway. The ablution huts were commodious. We had sports facilities there and of course there was, we could, there was no drill required of us unless we misbehaved. Once we were in combat mode. But we, we had the sergeant’s mess of course and the officer’s mess. We, we made friends across, across the barriers of nation. You know we had English friends, New Zealand friends, even though they weren’t necessarily of our own crew. But Johnny and I and our crew often went out as a group to a pub, and say outside Newark for instance. As a full crew there at one of the pubs in Newark. I remember one day, one night we were there and sitting on the hob beside the fire in the, in the bar were two old gentlemen in uniform. In the red jacket of the Chelsea Pensioners. Do you know about the Chelsea Pensioners? They were down in London. North London. Is Chelsea in North London? I’m not sure. But anyway there’s a Chelsea Pension House and old, some, how they qualify to get in I don’t know but former servicemen from World War One inhabited that place. And they could travel around the countryside if they were fit but you’d often see them in London walking in the city. Anyway, these two fellows were sitting there, sitting there by the hob of the fire with the half pot in their hand and a poker in this hand, poking the fire. Loud hissing. And drink their warmed beer, warm mild, not bitter, mild. And so Johnny photographed one of them. Not photographed, he drew one of them. He always carried a pad in his jacket pocket.
AdP: Oh wow.
AlP: And oh it was, it was so good. And so he would, we’d go to other places and he would do drawings. Artistic. Artistic work. I lost track of him, I lost track of my whole crew. I’m sorry about that. Yes. There were plenty of dances in the villages and towns as well and pubs were very popular.
AdP: What, what sorts of things happened in pubs apart from Chelsea pensioners with their pokers?
AlP: Well [laughs] you didn’t see many of those. Well, sometimes there were disputes, a little too much drink. There was a tendency among aircrews to live now for tomorrow we may die. We weren’t like that. And we weren’t total abstainers by any means. But we were [pause] we had our eyes on the future. It was said and I think Bernie, the other Australian in the crew, he spent less time with us in, on leave than anyone else did. Jock was a little bit heavy on the whisky. He loved his whisky but he was a Scotsman. He was probably brought up on the stuff. We didn’t see a lot of offensive drunkenness. It sometimes happened in the mess. A bit of disputing went on. I’m not sure why. It’s too far back to remember.
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Motivations. Anyway.
AdP: What — you’ve mentioned earlier briefly that you did one operation.
AlP: Yeah. That came —
AdP: Tell me about that.
AlP: Well that’s coming up shortly.
AdP: Alright.
AlP: We was looking forward to linking up, I think the squadron that was on, co-habited our airport — airfield was 217. An English squadron. You might check that. I’ve got a feeling it’s the, we were certainly I wasn’t going to be in one of the Australian squadrons. Incidentally did you know that the Australian squadrons were not as self-governed as the Canadian Squadron?
AdP: Yes.
AlP: You knew that.
AdP: Yes.
AlP: That was a pity. I wonder why. Anyway, that’s beside the point. So we, we had a series of cross-country’s to do. Much the same as AFU. OTU rather. But we were across to the Irish Sea. Out a bit to the, into the North Atlantic. Sometimes down to Scotland and that way. Sometimes. And up The Channel. But never, never in to enemy occupied territory. But to be looking, what I was looking forward to was the forthcoming and necessary bullseye over London. Have you heard about that?
AdP: Yes. Yeah. Tell us. Tell us more about it.
AlP: Well, we were to go out on this exercise over to the Irish Sea. Up, out again to the North Atlantic to points of, no points of vision, just points on the, on the radar. Out and then across towards the Bay of Biscay and then to another focal, another point of time and place. And then over the coast, south coast of England, not far from Brighton and Hove. More nearer Hove. And it was a given ETA at each point. As we were flying out over the Midlands and out towards Ireland I asked Bernie for, for a position. He said, ‘I’m in a mess here.’ I looked around and he’s got his radio in pieces. He said, ‘Something’s melted here.’ And so I reported it to skipper. Skipper said, ‘Shall we? Shall we continue? Do you want to continue navigator?’ We were all very formal in the air. I said, ‘What do you think Bernie?’ He said, ‘Give me a little while. See if I can get it together.’ So we got out almost to the west coast of England and he said, ‘I can’t do it.’ So the skipper said, ‘How’s your, how’s your Gee box?’ I said, ‘It’s working fine skipper. It’s ok.’ He said, ‘What about H2S?’ That’s the one with the picture on it. Bringing the picture up from the ground. I said, ‘Yeah. It’s fine. Is fine.’ He said, ‘Well we can’t use it too close over the water.’ I said, ‘No. I realise that. It would only show you lots of waves.’ I said, ‘We’re alright on the Gee. It’s ok.’ ‘What’s your recommendation?’ I took a deep breath. I said, ‘I suggest we proceed and we’ll go by dead reckoning.’ ‘DR it is then.’ And then we took it, we arrived at a point out in the Irish Sea. Hopefully, it was the one we wanted. I was confident on my charts that it was and I gave him the change of course. And the weather was good. Not a lot of heavy wind. We were flying at eighteen thousand. Sixteen or eighteen thousand and it can be tricky up there. It can be quite different from down low. It can be quite contrary in fact. So, anyway, we went down below in due course, another hour and a half or something. Maybe two hours. I’ve forgotten now. The next point out in the middle of the Atlantic you see because nowhere else could be seen anywhere. Everyone reported water. Water. So my ETA was, was accurate I felt. And so we headed off towards the Bay of Biscay. This might be different. And anyway it turned out almost flying due east. Two seventy to that point. Turned again. Now was the test. We were on ETA down to the coast of England near, as I said, near Hove. ‘See the coastline?’ ‘Yes. I can see the coastline.’ Surely took bearing on the actual physical bearing, visual bearing on the point where you expected to cross and we were within the three minutes of ETA after flying for, I think it was five hours. What a sigh of relief. So I let the skipper know all was well. The crew were relaxed. We had nothing other than dead reckoning. And then to London. Well, I don’t know whether we changed height but the London was to counteract the balloons which were always there and they were put up. The lights. Searchlights. And as we were getting towards south London we started to see the searchlights combing the sky. Quite a lot of them. And then we saw some fighters. We could see flashlights in there. There were fighters in the air and we had to dodge all this, get through to drop a photographic bomb if you know what I mean, over Green Park. The centre where the target of London. Right near Buckingham Palace. You know where it is? And we, so Johnny said, ‘Prepare for evasive action,’ and we started evasive action. Right. ‘Down to port,’ down we’d go port side. ‘Levelling out. Forward. Ahead fifteen thousand. Fourteen thousand. Climbing to starboard.’ This was yelling. We were all getting, we were all hearing this and this was anger. We were going to be five times G. Five gravity. Five times gravity, and we got through it. It was a magnificent experience but horrifying, but [unclear] was going up and down like this. And then up and down like this with a ,with somebody and we were dropped, Jock dropped his photo. Took his camera shots over the target and then returned to base. Thank heaven that was over. And that was as exciting as it was going to be I thought except until we were just called out to go out over enemy territory because those searchlights are horrifying. Terrifying. We were graded on that, I don’t know, I forgot the score but we did quite well evidently. Particularly as we did it without really navigation check-ups on the way. See my heart’s pounding already. It was a few days later we were called to join a squadron. I don’t know whether it was 217 or what. We were making, making a raid over Southern Germany. Now, you mentioned earlier that someone had done a raid over — your uncle?
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Over Berchtesgaden.
AdP: Berchtesgaden. No.
AlP: Berchtesgaden.
AdP: That was another of my interview subjects. Yeah.
AlP: Oh was it?
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Now I don’t know if it was there. It was somewhere over the southern Ruhr it was going to be I guess and the weather had turned foul. It was now. I’m trying to think back to my logbook because I’m so sorry I lost that. I think it must have been April. And so we loaded up, bombed up and gone through out processes ready for the real thing.
AdP: And you were in a Lancaster by this stage?
AlP: Yeah. The Lancaster.
AdP: Yes.
AlP: Oh yes. In a Lancaster. We were briefed. Had our charts in front of us. Taken to our separate briefings of course. We always were. And brought back as a crew for crew briefing. Then into line and we become part of an attack. I think probably a number of squadrons and their satellites like we were a satellite. And we flew up, up to a fictitious point at ten thousand feet somewhere over the North Sea, or maybe over Holland. Then a change of course on a very bad night. Not only a bad night. Pitch black. Pitch black night. No moon, which of course a moonlight night is too dangerous for a, for you being a target to stop. But it was nothing. It was bad weather. We changed course heading [pause] heading south from there with the somewhere about two, twenty three thirty degrees something like that. East. And southeast. At, to twenty thousand feet and then joined. We must have been, we must have had, but we acted independently because we joined a flight group there and then changed course for the target and then got the call back. We were trip aborted, and so we were out by this time. Out by about two hours I guess. And skipper took the, the bomb aimer, the wireless operator took the code message and passed it on to the skipper. It was a great disappointment. We were there. We were scared. We were dead scared. No doubt about that. It was going to be out first trip but there was no option. So I had to set a course to come back and I’ve forgotten — it was a deviate, a deviant course. And I think we were just sort of grieving this all the way back. And one thing we had overlooked or didn’t know. We should have been aware of. Even though we had IFF on our aircraft, all our aircraft. Identification Friend or Foe. What had been happening while the Luftwaffe attack force or defence force was much depleted they were still shooting down aircraft. They had new tactics. They were flying with their FW190s with guns, cannons pointing upwards. They’d fly under our aircraft going or returning from attacks, from bombing raids. There was one of the things they were doing. And even with depleted numbers they were successful. They were very fast with their 109s, ME109s of course. And there was rumours they had a faster one but the 190s were fast enough. But what they were doing was following and getting into, into returning groups. Flights and squadrons. By now a bit, perhaps being a bit careless and not looking out, the gunner, not a lot to look at. And they were picking off returning aircraft crossing The Channel. And so we were approaching a town and we could see the lights of home sort of thing. Some lights over in Britain. Then suddenly Peter, the rear gunner yelled out, ‘Skipper, there’s someone, there’s someone firing verey lights here. I’d better report.’ Johnny said, skipper said, ‘Well what are they? Green or red, rear gunner?’ ‘They’re white skipper.’ ‘White. There aren’t white verey lights. They’re not verey lights gunner, that’s tracer.’ We’ll scramble. And we did scramble and we avoided it. If they were tracer, if they were attack aircraft. I don’t know what else could they be? Johnny couldn’t think of anything else. We scrambled to another airfield. We got a message out. They lit up for us with searchlights. No. Not searchlights. Lights of the trucks and so on outlined the airfield. The airstrip. And the next day we flew back to base and we weren’t reprimanded. So then it wasn’t long after that came May the 6th. Or was it the 5th. Anyway, the word was getting around things were, things were but they were much more shorter trips. And they were, the attacks were along the, along, I think enemy ground forces. And we didn’t get another trip. Word came out Hitler had suicided. Then the word came out — Admiral Donitz was it became the vice chancellor? He took over and he surrendered. And our crew were told well actually you may now accept to disarm. Not disarmament. To [pause] you may return to civvy life. Demobilisation. And they just broke our crew up like that. The Australians — they sent us to a place called Worksop which was further over. Cambridgeshire way I think. And we were told that Australians, the Australians on our HSU, HCU I should say or were English squadrons. Navigators, probably navigators, bomb aimers, wireless operators taken to special school for a secret training school. Ours was training for navigation and we were to be retrained for the war against the Japanese. And so we were given leave then for a time. A few weeks. I think a fourteen day pass and we were able to go to London. We went on VE day. Actual VE day. We were in a vast crowd of troops and civilians of many nationalities. Air force, navy, military forces travelling from all corners around to Buckingham Palace. And I can remember walking up the [pause] what’s, what’s the big, big parade up into, up into Buckingham Palace. Anyway, up to the threshold of Buckingham Palace. And there were hundreds. Seemed to be hundreds of thousands of us all around Buckingham palace waiting for the king and queen and the two princesses to come out. We spent hours there cheering like mad, waving our flags and I looked around and there were so many air force uniforms with so many different badges on their shoulders. Not only us from the Commonwealth or from the Empire but there were pilots, and air gunners and all kinds. Ground staff. They were there too. From the European nations. Those that had managed to get out of Europe before Hitler had conquered their country and they were still able to fight on. So that was the end of that. And we went down to Worksop to do the study. And we were six weeks into the course and by this time now we were in to April/May. May/June/July. The, the war was weakening in in Southeast Asia. And then we got the word in early August, an atom bomb had been dropped. We heard that this atom bomb was going to be something in the future. We heard about this. Then we heard another one. We were still in the workshop in this place. In this school. And the message came Japan had surrendered. The end of the war. The Englishmen out of Bomber Command well certainly some of them might have been, stayed and been trained for going to Burma. But we were certainly not going there. And we were then equipped with paintbrushes and tools and anything to fill in our time on demolishing or painting or building at this station. Incidentally, we had already celebrated with a bunch of Australians the night before VE day at somewhere just near [pause] near the airfield. Near HCU anyway our 1661. The castle. Where the castle was. Anyway, they gave us leave again to report back to, back to Australian headquarters, Australia House and where we collected our pay book. [unclear] sorry. Again. And we got, our mail was gathered to there. And then they told us we could get, join a, join in a find a job. A civvy. [unclear] speech is getting [unclear] a civvy course. And I got a job in an [pause] a course. An office in a big factory in the Elephant and Castle. A big, big factory. And they were short of staff and that’s was nearly two months of pay, extra money. I was able to opt to be employed. I was living at the home. An Australian House place that they appointed for. Now my voice is going. My voice is going. And it was, wasn’t until November. Then again focus on another [pause]. Ship. A ship.
AdP: We might, we might leave it there. We’ve been going for a while now.
AlP: I’m sorry.
AdP: That’s alright.
AlP: I’m losing my [pause] Anyway, I trained, ship home. Home in January again. Again [unclear] away. With my family. Home. And I was back to my job. A month later. My home. Civvy job. Boy. It took a hard job getting over the same job. The home job. Home to my mum and dad with my bike. At work. Back to [unclear]. Leave it at that. You’re right. Adam.
AdP: That’s a good idea. So thank you very much. Shake your hand.
AlP: Thank you so much.
AdP: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APughA160625
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alan Pugh
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:12:20 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-25
Description
An account of the resource
Alan was born in Western Victoria in Australia. After two years in the Air Training Corps, he asked to join the Royal Australian Air Force. He was selected to go to Somers No. 2 Initial Training School on No. 46 course. Alan chose to be a navigator/air observer. He was sent to No. 2 Air Observers’ School in Edmonton, Canada, as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme. Alan details the training he received in navigation and bomb aiming, including astronavigation. He describes his equipment and navigation in practice. After graduating as a sergeant navigator, he sailed to the UK.
After a holding station in Padgate, Alan went to Brighton. En route, he witnessed the devastating effects of war in London. He saw some V-1s in Brighton. He did a commando course in the North East before going to RAF Llandwrog, an Advanced Flying Unit. He learnt Gee and H2S navigation systems. Alan was posted to No. 17 Operational Training Unit on Wellingtons. Because of illness, he had to crew up a second time. The satellite station was at RAF Silverstone. Alan recounts some of his activities on leave.
Alan was posted to the 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe where he first encountered Lancasters. A flight engineer was added to their crew.
Alan discusses the large losses of Bomber Command and also Australians.
He details a “bullseye” exercise to London when the radio malfunctioned and Alan had to navigate by dead reckoning. A few days later, they had to abort an attack on the Ruhr. They were almost hit from below on their return journey.
When Germany surrendered, the Australians were sent to RAF Worksop. Alan spent VE Day in London. After the atomic bomb on Japan, Alan briefly found a job in London before sailing back to Australia.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--London
Wales--Gwynedd
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Canada
Alberta
Alberta--Edmonton
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
17 OTU
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
fear
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
mess
military living conditions
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Silverstone
RAF Turweston
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Worksop
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/358/5523/MHayleyCA146347-160303-010004.2.jpg
47da557467f927328f28611e625cbca5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hayley, Jack
Jack Hayley
C A Hayley
Cecil A Hayley
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Collection consists of a log book, an interview and other items concerning Flight Lieutenant Cecil 'Jack' Alison Hayley DFC. Items include photographs of aircraft and people, a letter concerning his Distinguished Flying Cross and well as newspaper cuttings concerning operations, his wedding and the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross. After training he completed tours on 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, then 170 Squadron at RAF Hemswell before going on to a bomber defence training flight flying Hurricanes and Spitfires.
This collection was donated by Jack Hayley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hayley, CA
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-25
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Marriage of Miss N. Dickson. – At the Parish Church of St. Mary the Virgin on Saturday afternoon the marriage took place of Flying Officer Cecil Hayley, youngest son of Mr. J. W. Hayley, of Caterham, and of the late Mrs. Hayley, and Miss Noreen Dickson, only daughter of Mr. and Mrs. John Dickson, Brook Farm, Weston Turville. The bride was dressed in a gown of moonlight blue moss crepe, her hair was crowned with flowers and she wore silver shoes. She carried a bouquet of carnations and white heather. The bridesmaid, Miss Betty Gibson, of Cuddington, a life-long friend of the bride, wore a gown of dawn pink cloque, with a headdress and scarf veil to match, and carried a bouquet of pink carnations. The bridesmaid wore a gold R.A.F. brooch, the gift of the bridegroom. Flying Officer Warrington was best man. The Rector (the Rev. H. W. Wheeler) officiated. The service was fully choral. The hymns "Come, Gracious Spirit, Heavenly Dove" and "O, Perfect Love" were rendered by the choir. Mr. Hobbs presiding at the organ. There was a merry peal on the church bells as the bridal party left the church for the reception at Brook Farm, the home of the bride, which was attended by more than 70 guests. Arrangements for a honeymoon in Dorset had to be cancelled at the last moment as the bridegroom has been re-called to his squadron, so that a brief honeymoon was spent in London. The bride's travelling dress was of brown and light tan, and she carried a brown leather handbag and a monogrammed dressing case, gifts of the bridegroom. The couple were the recipients of nearly 100 presents.
MARRIAGES
HAYLEY – DICKSON. – At St. Mary the Virgin, Weston Turville, on Saturday, November 27th, Cecil Alison, youngest son of J. W. Hayley, Esq., of Caterham, and the late Mrs Hayley, to Isabella Noreen, only daughter of Mr. and Mrs. John Dickson, Brook Farm, Weston Turville.
[photograph]
[underlined] OUR FIRST HOME IN YEWTREE COTTAGE, KIRTON-IN-LYNDSEY, LINCS WITH BILL & IVY RICHARDSON LITERALLY "ONE UP AND ONE DOWN"! [/underlined] 1946
[photograph]
ON DELAYED HONEYMOON IN MINEHEAD APRIL 1945 PROUDLY WEARING NEWLY AWARDED DFC RIBBON
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jack Hayley's wedding, honeymoon and first house
Description
An account of the resource
On the left two newspaper cuttings with announcement and details of wedding at Weston Turville. Bottom left a photograph of a single story cottage with dormer windows, a garden in front and trees behind. Captioned 'Our first home in Yewtree Cottage, Kirton-in-Lyndsey, Lincs, with Bill and Ivy Richardson, Literally "one up one down", 1946'. On the right a photograph of Jack Hayley in tunic with pilots brevet and peaked cap standing in front of a stone bridge with trees in the background. Captioned 'On delayed honeymoon in Minehead April 1945, proudly wearing newly awarded DFC ribbon'.
Format
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Two newspaper cuttings and two b/w photographs mounted on an album page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MHayleyCA146347-160303-010004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Somerset
England--Aylesbury
England--Kirton in Lindsey
England--Minehead
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1946
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Distinguished Flying Cross
love and romance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/178/5621/PBriggsR1610.1.jpg
4368b454d0d2243b4100ec7ae58ac2cd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/178/5621/PBriggsR1611.1.jpg
558513e6fa04c40fbc8dded61c3483d9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Briggs, Roy
R Briggs
Description
An account of the resource
24 items. One oral history interview with Roy Briggs (1893726 Royal Air Force), his logbook, service material, training material, official documents and 12 photographs. Roy Briggs trained as a wireless operator and flew four operations with 576 Squadron from RAF Fiskerton. He also took took part in Operation Manna and Operation Exodus as well as Cook’s tours over Germany.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Roy Briggs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-28
Identifier
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Briggs, R
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Title
A name given to the resource
One officer and 39 airmen
Description
An account of the resource
The men are arranged in three rows. Roy Briggs is 2nd on the left in the second row. on the reverse 'Taken 29-6-42 at Halton',
Date
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1942-06-29
Format
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One b/w photograph
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PBriggsR1610, PBriggsR1611
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-06-29
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
RAF Halton
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/369/5869/PHicksDK15010094.2.jpg
d5efe29036a22b5846fd4e18c2ccd41b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hicks, Ken
Ken Hicks
D K Hicks
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. An oral history interview with Chief Technician David Kennedy Hicks (b. 1922, 0574954 Royal Air force), memories of the Battle of Britain, his Royal Air Force record, and photographs of his Halton entry, his time in Southern Rhodesia and 56 photographs, many of his time in Southern Africa. Ken Hicks joined the Royal Air Force in 1938 as a Halton apprentice. He served with 202 Squadron at RAF Hornchurch during the Battle of Britain as an aircraft rigger. Subsequently he served on training unit in Southern Rhodesia and then in Egypt, staying in the Royal Air Force after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ken Hicks and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hicks, DK
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Royal Air Force Halton apprentices
Description
An account of the resource
86 Halton apprentices wearing tunics and peaked caps in five rows in front of a building with at least two stories. Captioned '38 Entry B Squadron No 2 Wing RAF Halton, takne April 1938. Ken Hicks row 4, 5 from the right'.
Date
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1938-04
Format
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One b/w photograph
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PHicksDK15010094
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Wendover
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938-04
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
RAF Halton
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/369/6115/AHicksDK151103.2.mp3
8f3b62f9200c69a23551ea40528cc813
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hicks, Ken
Ken Hicks
D K Hicks
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. An oral history interview with Chief Technician David Kennedy Hicks (b. 1922, 0574954 Royal Air force), memories of the Battle of Britain, his Royal Air Force record, and photographs of his Halton entry, his time in Southern Rhodesia and 56 photographs, many of his time in Southern Africa. Ken Hicks joined the Royal Air Force in 1938 as a Halton apprentice. He served with 202 Squadron at RAF Hornchurch during the Battle of Britain as an aircraft rigger. Subsequently he served on training unit in Southern Rhodesia and then in Egypt, staying in the Royal Air Force after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ken Hicks and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hicks, DK
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and I’m here to talk with Ken Hicks on the 3rd of November 2015 about his experiences in World War Two but if you’d like to start please Ken with your earliest recollections and then just go through your life in sequence please.
KH: To start with, my father, a coal miner down in Wales and when I was fifteen he said to me, ‘Lad you’re not going down the pit. I want you to learn a trade. I want you to go to see the headmaster and join the royal aircraft as an aircraft apprentice.’ I went and saw the headmaster and he said, ‘There’s no one been up from this school. The curriculum doesn’t cover it.’ But my old man went down and thumped the table. And he said ok and he sent for the exam paper and I sat in his office in his chair and I had one hour and I answered all the questions and he came in and he said, ‘Put your pen down.’ So I had just I just worked out the last answer so I jotted that down and he went bananas. ‘When I say put the pen down put the pen down.’ So he put it in a big brown envelope and he said, ‘Lick that,’ and I licked it. And he got hold of me by the ear and said, ‘Come on. I want to see you post it.’ So I posted it. I passed. He had me up in front of the school, tapping my head saying, ‘There’s a clever boy. I want all you boys to try this examination now.’ So I learned a lot about humanity [laughs]. So off I went to RAF Halton as a civilian lad of sixteen. Never been out of the Welsh valley even alone Wales on a train up to London. We got, we got to London and all the apprentices were sort of gathering there on the last train to Wendover and we all straggled up to, up to the camp. Not marched. And I was very impressed. I would, became a member of B Squadron. Two Wing Aircraft Apprentice RAF Halton. There was over a thousand boys in our entry and it was quite an eye opener but I adapted very well. My education wasn’t all that clever so I wasn’t one of the brainy blokes. I never became a snag — a corporal apprentice, or a sergeant apprentice [laughs]. I was still an AA. I got a three year training course but the war broke out 1939 and they cut it down to two years. Cut out a lot of sport and concentrated on teaching us. We marched down to schools, we marched down to the workshops and we marched down to the airfield for the aircraft training. We were training on Hawker Harts and Demons drilling, rigging. Stripping them down. Building them up. And an old Hampden there as the bomber side of it. I passed out in June 1940 and posted to 222 Squadron which was based at Kirton Lindsey, Lincoln at the time. And I’d only been there a week and beginning to settle down when we moved down to Hornchurch which moved straight into the Battle of Britain which commenced then and with two Spitfire squadrons at Hornchurch — 222 and I think it’s 603 City of Glasgow Spitfire squadron. I worked with a LAC 1GC who called me a sprog and I soon picked up we were repairing bullet holes in Spitfires. Filing around. If they, if they weren’t too bad we put a fabric patch on them. Anything to keep the aeroplane flying. Or we had to rivet two small riveting patches. I fitted in well with the, with the airman. We worked until the aircraft was serviceable. Sometimes gone midnight. We lost thirty seven pilots in that three months on my squadron and I wasn’t, I didn’t realise what was happening up there in the sky above us. The Germans were bombing our airfields and the Dorniers were coming across at about six thousand feet and mounds of earth — bombs were dropping and they were trying to – the grass airfields and they were trying to obliterate the RAF camps altogether. Bombs on the airfield. We had civilians out there with shovels filling in the bomb holes. They were bombing our hangars. And I was in the bath one night, 10 o’clock, when a bomb landed right outside the building and blew all the glass from the door into the bath with me and plaster. I reached over for my towel and that was covered in bits of glass. So I turned the duckboard upside down and stood on that. It was pitch dark. Half the block had been knocked down so the next night they moved us over to a round nissen hut the other side of the airfield and we were all in bed and about 1 o’clock in the morning a landmine which had come down went off and blew the roof right off our head. This corrugated roof. And we were all shouting at each other in our beds. Everybody. ‘Everybody alright.’ So we said we were alright and nobody hurt so we went back to sleep looking up at the stars. So that was a good opening. [pause] Where were we?
CB: We’re going to have a break for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: Ok. So you’ve lost the roof.
KH: Yeah.
CB: And what happened next day?
KH: The next day I had to go with the corporal. Corporal airframe fitter. I was, I was an airframe fitter. A land rover down, one of our Spitfires had landed down in Kent. In Manston. So we had to go down there and repair it. On the way down through the Kentish fields all the fields that were unharvested at that time of the year and they were all burning. Flames going across the road as we were driving along. I don’t know if that was a ploy to destroy the harvest or what but anyway we got to this Manston. Manston was a place heavily bombed. Anything left, any bombs left, any bombs left going back to Germany they picked Manston out and dropped them there. So there was no one on the station except a skeleton staff but we had a billet and there was, there was an emergency cook laid on for meals and we got to the Spitfire which had bent a prop and a pitot head and the corporal fitter in charge he changed the prop and I had to help him. There was no one on the station so we helped ourselves in the empty yard and anywhere else for equipment and stuff. We worked in the middle of the airfield. There was also a lorry there full of civilian workers. They were shovelling and filling in the bomb holes trying to put the airfield back in to some sort of serviceability state and one of them was binoculars scouring the skies. He was lookout and when he blew the whistle they all dropped their shovels, jumped in the truck and tore off the airfield. So we soon twigged it and when they went off the airfield we went off as well [laughs]. We dropped our tools and went off as well. So we fixed this Spitfire and the pilot came down in an Anson, dropped him off and he took off and flew it back to Hornchurch and then we got home and that was my first introduction to the war as it were. What was happening? Stop.
CB: Ok.
[Recording paused]
CB: Ok Ken can we just talk about what was your role as a rigger? What did you actually do in your job?
KH: As an airframe fitter I’d done the basic training and trained on older type of aircraft but now I was on a Spitfire which I’d never seen before in my life and didn’t know. Hadn’t done any training on it but I was given, I was told to work with an LAC 1GC airframe fitter who knew the ropes and he had to sort of teach me. So any riveting he was riveting that side and I held the block on this side sort of thing. So we were doing patches on the skins and things like that. Change undercart. Change the wheels. Tyre bay. How to use, how to use the tyre levers to change those, get those tyres off. Things like that. They were all practical work which I’d never done before and everything we did I learned. I learned more all the time. We had to learn the hydraulic system, the pneumatic system, the electrical system, anti-freeze system and even spraying. We had to spray and paint the camouflage back on the aircraft. And another role came out. We had to paint the underneath of the Spitfires a duck egg, duck egg blue, a light duck egg blue. So there we were lying on the hangar floor with a twelve inch, two inch paint brush painting the underside of a Spitfire. And we had to do the whole squadron. We’d got a mat to lie on on the hard concrete floor. That took us about a week to do the squadron. I can’t remember other things which I did because it was a long time ago.
CB: What about the flying controls which were wire operated?
KH: Well they were alright but I I had to do some splicing and I got a wire out and made a measurement and got a new wire from stores and spliced in the buckle on both ends. That’s seven and a half tucks on the splicing and then, and then fit it, wire, pull it back through with the string and connect it up. Tension the turn buckle to get it all right. And then the aircraft used to go out then on air test. On one occasion I was working in a hangar and apparently a Spitfire had come over from dispersal. They disbursed the Spits instead of having them in one place and be a target for a bomb they disbursed the other side of the airfield all over the place. Well this one came over and stopped in between the hangars and the chaps coming back from lunch, dinnertime thought it was the next Spitfire to be done so they pushed it into the hangar but this one was armed and nobody knew about it. They came back from dinner and I was down just about opening my toolbox underneath the wing of this aircraft when an instrument basher had got into this aircraft he’d shoved in to check his instruments and he pressed the firing button for some reason and all of a sudden four machine guns blasting. Blasting the hangar wall with the armour piercing tracer bullets flying around all over the place. Quite a long burst. And I was crouching down behind my tool box and I thought [laughs] well it’s a bit dodgy this is. [laughs] Lots of things happened when we were working there. Every now and again we had to drop — drop our tools and run for the air raid shelter and get down there fast. I was down the air raid shelter one day and I was about the last one in I think ‘cause I was near the entrance and I heard an aircraft taxiing off so I l had a look out and there was a Hurricane had come in. It was taxiing around. There was nobody about. We were all down the air raid shelter. And the pilot was waving so I ran out, crossed and jumped on to the wing and it was, it was a Polish pilot and he wanted to know what airfield he’d landed on. He had a map on his knee which showed him more or less the east coast so I turned it over and I pointed out where we were. Hornchurch. Hornchurch. And he had a look around and I knew the Poles were over at, over the other side of London so I said to him, ‘Balloon barrage. Fly over the top.’ ‘Oh yah yah,’ he said, you know and off he went. I hope he got back alright. There were quite a few instances but when you’re young and you’re new to the game you learn pretty fast. You make mates but the Air Ministry post you as numbers and you just get a serviceable team going nicely and you’re posted overseas invariably. Never to, never to see each other again. So you don’t make friends too long in the air force. They come and go fast. Some are posted to the desert. Some are posted to Iceland to the snow. Some are posted up the Far East. I was on the boat. Went down to Uxbridge got my KD and [torpee?] Up to Liverpool. Got on a troop ship RMS Scythia. Hammocks. No bunks. Out in a fifty two boat convoy. Left the Clyde, staggered course, escorted by destroyers and one battleship. Out in to the North Atlantic. I heard depth charges going off. The destroyers were chasing the subs which were after the convoy. Apparently, we heard that they did get one. One of our troop ships. We came down towards the equator and on the day we crossed the equator I had my nineteenth birthday. Crossing the equator going down south on a staggered course. Then we headed west, west again to Freetown. Out into the Atlantic and down the South Atlantic to Cape Town. Mostly army bods on board. They were going around, they were going around up to the Suez Canal, Cairo and they were tackling Rommel in North Africa. But the twenty eight names of the RAF were shouted out. ‘Get your kit off the boat. Get on that train.’ The train set off up for a day and a half and we knew there wasn’t a river line going all the way to Cairo which we thought we were going there. And we came to Salisbury Rhodesia and I was posted to mount, RAF Mount Hampden. There were three stations around Salisbury. One was Tiger Moths, one was Harvards for training fighters and one was Oxfords training bombers and I was posted to Mount Hampden — Tiger Moths. We got there. We were advanced party. Twenty eight men in an advanced party. All trades. And we were setting up, setting it up it. Getting it prepared. The entry arrived on a train from the [wool?] station. Corrugated sink, roofs. Billets with mosquito net windows and doors. Storm ditches. And we soon settled down. Guards. Guard duty. I don’t know what we were guarding from. The natives weren’t, we could hear their jungle drums going all night when they’d had some Kafa beer down them from the village and that was about all. We had no problems from the outside but we still had to do guards. We were assembling aircraft out of packing cases. Tiger Moths. And we kept doing that until we got, we got about forty and they were doing circuits and bumps training pilots and one time there were four prangs on the airfield at the same time. One had landed heavy. Busted his undercart. Another one had landed, watching him, landed on top of another one and they both turned over like that. Upside down. And then another one crash landed and we had a big sign on the hangar wall, “You bend them, we mend them.” When we finished in the aircraft I had to go flying with the pilot on a test flight to test the aircraft before they handed over on to flying training. Loops and rolls and spins. So I used to put my parachute on and pull the straps tight and practice grabbing the, grabbing the rip cord to open the ‘chute. I always wanted to bale out. We were up there flying one day doing aerobatics and the aircraft, the engine cut so I thought, ah. So I shouted down the tube, ‘Can I bale out? ’ He said, ‘No. I can see a clearing in the jungle down there. So I thought oh. So we landed in this clearing. It was about four foot high grass stuff and we hit a termite hill which whipped the undercart off, dug our nose in and slammed us over on our back upside down. So I undid slowly on to the back of my neck, wriggled out and it didn’t catch fire. And that was at half past six in the morning. When the sun got up there it gets up to a hundred and ten, a hundred and twenty in the shade in the summertime. We had no food. No water. And the pilot said, ‘I can hear, I heard a lion roaring.’ Well there were lions around that area. I thought well we can’t leave the aircraft ‘cause they’ll never find us. So we were lumbered. We were stuck. Mid-day a Moth flew over, spotted us, waggled his wings and flew back and told them where we were. At about five o’clock a three tonner came through the jungle with Chiefy and a couple of bods and brought us food and water. Our Chiefy had a look at the aircraft. It had broken its back, it had broken its spruce bars and the wings had gone. This, that and the other. And I was watching him. He took his pipe out and he put his tobacco in. He struck a match and he took a couple of puffs and he went over and he threw the lit match down where the petrol was and up went the petrol and he said to the pilot, he said, ‘When you landed it burned didn’t it? ’ He said. He said it wasn’t worth taking back so (laughs] we went and left it. Yeah. Crumbs.
CB: Do you want a break?
KH: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: So the plane was a write off and caught fire so you went back but this was the sort of aeroplane you were trained on.
KH: Yes. That was no problem. They used to use me a lot because I was trained on aircraft and I could rig, I could rig the Tiger Moth so that there was no — it wasn’t flying left wing low, right wing low and all this that and the other and I used to do the trimming. I used to do any control work on it and I used to go up on air tests and make sure with the pilots that it was perfectly serviceable to hand over to flying training. That was primarily my job.
CB: What rank were you at this stage?
KH: I started off AC1, AC2, LAC.
CB: Right.
KH: I was stuck out in Rhodesia. No promotion for three years. I was doing an essential job training. Training pilots. I trained them in Rhodesia, South Africa and Canada so they were out of the way of the war. And that meant no promotion otherwise everybody would be flight sergeant [laughs] on the station [laughs]. Well there was no promotion at all for three years. One. One. He was a chippy carpenter. He got corporal stripes. He was the only one on the station that got promoted in that three years. The rest of the war was going on. That was more important. They were fighting out in Burma, they were fighting out in the Middle East and they were fighting out everywhere. They were moving around and getting places and getting promoted. They were on squadrons, my trade and the corporal would get killed and they thought they’d make an LAC up. There was promotion going on but not down there where we were on the training so I was still an LAC when I got home after three years. Six, six months I was only home in the UK six months and then I was posted overseas again. Egypt. A boat across the channel, a train down to [Touronne?] living in tents in the flooded water in the heavy rain until, for three days, until we got on a troop ship. Took us across the Med. Called in at Malta and I got rid of stuff there. And we didn’t know where we were going of course and then we saw the lovely blue Mediterranean Sea turning brown and we couldn’t see any land but that was the, that was the river coming down from North Africa.
CB: So this is the Nile Delta.
KH: The Nile. And that was coming out in to the Mediterranean and running and it was still brown full days sailing out from, you know. We came Alexandra. Dropped a few people off there and then we got on a train up to Cairo and we were nodding off on the train, with my head on the woodwork at the side and I started scratching and it was bugs come out of the woodwork and was biting me. I was lumps coming up [laughs] so I thought that’s our entrance to Egypt, you know. And this was the thing which we had to do. First of all it was a PGC Almaza in tents and before we left to go out in the evening into Cairo we used to put everything in our kit bag and lock it on to the tent pole because we’d heard that thieves used to get into the camp and pinch airmen’s equipment. When we came back, the rows of tents, there was a tent missing. They’d come in with a lorry and they’d picked the whole tent up pegs and all and put it in a lorry and drove out and nobody said anything. But ours was alright. Then we were waiting for our postings and we were posted everywhere. Down to, down the coast of Africa, down further down in to Egypt. They were posted up to Palestine. They were posted everywhere from there. Distribution place. And I got, I got Almaza Flying Station itself on Dakotas. So I soon picked that up then. We all had to move out of Egypt then so we all moved out of the Canal Zone. Two hundred mile across the desert to the Canal Zone. There was a great bit of lake half way down. It was Deversoir. Kibrit. Kibrit. Deversoir and 107MU and I was posted to 107MU repairing aircraft. But it was good in one thing. There was nothing to do. We had three yacht clubs on the station on the canal and I joined 107MU Sailing Club. I had put my name down first in a queue and then I was called up after about three weeks to join a club. The first thing I had to was allocate myself to a skipper who used to take me out and teach me how to use a jib. When I’d logged eight hours on the jib I was then free to be picked up by any skipper to go out on the main sail and give it dual instruction. And I found that I had a natural ability which I didn’t know I had and I could sail it pretty good. I learned. We’d got the rule book and I passed. Passed the B Helmsman Certificate and I became — I could take a boat out myself so I could book a boat out and take someone out. So, and every – we stopped – we finished, we started work at a quarter to six in the morning and we finished at one because it got too hot after that. So it was straight down the sailing club and I spent a lot of hours on the lake.
[Phone ringing. Recording paused]
KH: I’ve never done that before. [pause] Yeah. So I genned up on my racing rules and I passed my Helmsman Certificate. I could take a boat out and race. I could race. Compete. And I found I had the natural ability and I was, at the end of the year I was coming in first. I had three. The monthly race I was coming in first.
[Phone ringing. Recording paused]
CB: So, we’ve just paused for the phone. We’ve been talking about after the war in Egypt.
KH: Yeah.
CB: But you came back for six months.
KH: Yeah.
CB: What did you do in that six month period because this was at the end of ‘44?
KH: During that six months I was posted on to a squadron of [pause] of Hunters I think it was and I found out I knew nothing about modern aircraft and I asked and I got, I was away on aircraft instructional courses some lasting a month to various stations. I did three courses altogether and briefed up working on aircraft with the hydraulic systems and pneumatic systems, de-icer systems and all types of operational retraction handling and getting used to modern aircraft.
CB: Were these fighters or bombers or both?
KH: Everything.
CB: Right. And where were you stationed?
KH: Bombers. Transport. I was stationed actually at [paused] at — I don’t —
CB: Well we’ll pick up with it later.
KH: I can’t remember it.
CB: But you were getting up to date on modern aircraft systems.
KH: Yeah. Yeah. I did. You realise that I’d been out in the desert I hadn’t worked on them. But that developed rapidly during the war while I was out there.
CB: So after you finished at 107MU.
KH: Yeah.
CB: What did you do then? So you did sailing in the part time but after you left the MU in Egypt —
KH: Yeah.
CB: Where did you go?
KH: Well let’s see. I was posted to RAF [pause] as an instructor at Cosford. That’s right. RAF Cosford. As an instructor instructing air frames, hydraulic systems on the aircraft. From there the Berlin Airlift started and we were we were taken off to do a three month detachment on to the Berlin airlift so I was out of my first Berlin Airlift and straight into Berlin. Shift work. The aircraft. The Russians had surrounded Berlin and so we had to fly everything in. Food, coal, everything. So one aircraft landing every three minutes right around the clock. Avro Yorks, Hastings. Hastings were carrying fuel. But mainly Dakotas. American Dakotas flying right around the clock in shift work and we had the German labour to offload the aircraft and we had to – I was involved in seeing the aircraft in. Marshalling them, stopping them, putting the chocks there and getting them all in line and when they were emptied the pilot came back from having a cup of tea, got all back in the aircraft and started them up. I had a torch. That’s all. Start one, two, three, four engines or whatever what they were and the same all off. Right around the clock. If there was anything wrong we had to tackle it. We had to check, check the tyres, oil leaks, if there was a cut in the tyre we’d put it serviceable to fly back to base if we thought they wouldn’t make it. We didn’t want them stuck in Berlin. It was tough going and it was January. Snow. Three or four of inches of snow. We kept on flying and I was going from one aircraft to the other in the snow and there was a big pile of snow there. And I give it a kick. I thought, ‘What?’ And there was a dead man underneath it. It was a German labourer unloading the aircraft. He’d walked through a prop which was running under the wing and he didn’t see the prop and chopped him and covered with him snow as it taxied away. It was that bad but we kept it going. It was shift work and we were, we were shattered. The food we were having from the cookhouse was what we were flying in. Dehydrated. Everything was dehydrated potatoes dehydrated. Pomme. Dehydrated peas. Dehydrated powdered stuff and we weren’t getting good food at all. For Christmas Day we had one whole orange each. That was a treat. That was the toughest part I’ve ever been in I think. That Berlin Airlift. And the station commander wasn’t satisfied when he walked around our billets because we were doing shift work. We were piling out of bed and getting to work six o’clock in the morning. Leave our, leave our bed made down and that wasn’t good enough. All beds had to be made up. This that and the other. And everybody was put on a charge and we were all given a reprimand. A block punishment. [laughs] But I used to get time off. I was chatting up, my mate and I chatting up a couple of deutsche bints as we called them. [laughs] Yeah. It was alright. Anyway, we were back, back at Bassingbourn which was our base then. On Avro Yorks. Working on Yorks and they put me, when I got back to Bassingbourn, the warrant officer in charge says, ‘You’re a married man. I want you to go to the R&D section,’ receive and despatch section in charge of ten WAAFs. ‘I want a married man to look after them.’ So I went over to the edge of a hangar there was a section and they were sort of changing the white covers over the back of the seats in the aircraft and the airmen I had were doing the fitting of the seats. Taking them out and stacking them on a tractor and a trailer and we used to, an aircraft, a York used to come in, different rolls. Some had a roller. Some had lashing chains. Some had power seats. Some had VIP seats and all these had to be handled. And strip the aircraft and hand it over for it to do the servicing. Into maintenance and then fit them all back in afterwards so it was quite a busy operation and variation and they were all airmen and WAAFs and I was a corporal put in charge of them [laughs] and the first day I knocked off at 5 o’clock. They all left the section and I locked the hangar. Locked the section up which was a steel door. I was going to lock it and one of the WAAFs had come back, had got hold of me and pinned me against a wall. Grabbed a handful. So I thought, Jones, her name was. Bloody thing. So I talked her out of that one. I thought I’ve got to handle these buggers myself now [laughs]. So it was quite a struggle too because some of the airmen were a bit bolshie. They were, they all had demob numbers. They all wanted to get out, get out of the mob. That happened to start with down when I was down in Egypt. I had a, I had a team, servicing team. I was in charge of two aircraft servicing teams and every now and again a demob number would come up and I’d lose a man, lose another man, and lose a man – no replacements. Getting less and less and we had I was training two natives. Two Egyptian natives to do some of the work. Some of the rigging and fitting work. Just the donkey work stuff. And I thought well this is no good. We had fifteen Dakotas there servicing on the line. And then, and Chiefy says, ‘You’ll have to take that Dakota there he said, get in it, get somebody to start it up, pull the trolley acc away and taxi it yourself out into the desert as far as you can. Switch your engines off, get out and shut the door and walk back here.’ And that’s what I had to do. All these Dakotas. The war had finished. The Yanks didn’t want the Dakotas back. Nobody wanted them so took them out in the desert and left them there. And the third day I was going out, I taxied out and there was another one of them starting up so I went over. There was a truck there. It was Israelis there from Israel. They come down starting up to tax, taxiing to the runway and flying them back to Israel. [laughs]. So all I was doing was helping the bloody Israelis out [laughs] nicking all our Dakotas. Well they were supposed to be but they were perfectly alright. We were working all that time to get them serviceable. Cor flipping heck. But I soon adapted to that.
CB: So that was in your desert time. We were just having a reflection there. So back to Bassingbourn.
KH: Bassingbourn.
CB: Were you losing people to demob there as well?
KH: Yes. All the time.
CB: We’re on National Service now of course.
KH: Yeah.
CB: Because we’re on 1948.
KH: Yeah. Yeah it was. It got difficult then. What did I do? I went on courses. Bassingbourn. [pause] Cosford as instructor. Yeah. Married. Yeah Bassingbourn. Airlift.
CB: So Bassingbourn had Yorks.
KH: Yeah.
CB: And then did you keep on that aircraft or did you go to something quite different somewhere else?
KH: Oh no. I’m trying to think what happened then.
CB: We’ll take a —
KH: Oh yeah
CB: Sorry.
KH: I got quite fed up then and I was – what was it? I was at Abingdon. No. I was in digs in Reading. I was married. Digs in reading. I was on a motorbike back and forth to Abingdon. Working RAF Abingdon on Yorks and I was passing Benson and I was chatting to in bloke in Wallingford, a RAF chap from Benson. He said there’s a Queen’s Flight, Benson, King’s Flight at Benson then and he says, ‘Why don’t you come to Benson, you know, instead of going back and forth to Reading all the time.’ Reading to Abingdon. So I went to the orderly room and I I asked if I could be posted and I filled in a form and then I was posted to a Kings Flight. Well I was sent over there for interview. I arrived at a guardroom and I was escorted down to the hangar and up to the warrant officer in charge and I was interviewed and then he took me through to the flight lieutenant who happened to be in my entry. Thirty eighth entry at Halton. He was one of the brainy ones. He got, he got a technical commission and so he says, he says, ‘Right,’ you know, ‘We’ll have you.’ So I was posted to the Kings Flight. I applied for married quarters and I got it. 11 Spitfire Square and and everything was fine. Then it was the Queen’s Flight. The Queen’s Flight [pause]. Two children born there. Halton Hospital. Yeah. I enjoyed my stay there. I did so well when I left and yeah, I got the Royal Victoria Medal presented to me when I left. I was in Germany and I was sent, I was sent down to Bonn where a group captain was dishing out medals and I was presented with the RVM for being on the Queen’s Flight. For the good work I’d done there. I was working on Swift, Swift aircraft. There was only two squadrons of Swifts made. 2 Squadron down on Aden. I was on 79 Squadron and Chief Tech Airframe and nobody knew anything about these bloody aeroplanes. And I reckon I did some good work on them. The warrant officer relied on me for everything. Any snag that came up he used to come and ask me. There was one Swift sitting there. They couldn’t keep it in a hangar because it was running fuel all the time out of a pipe out of the back. Filled the drip trays so they kept it outside. They kept it out over a drain. The next thing the farmer down the road said his cows were getting ill. It was the fuel was going into the brook and drinking the oily, oily water so he asked me to do something about it. So I’ve got, I never seen Swift before in my life and I got, I went and got the one and only book on it and I took it home that night and read it. It was gone midnight when I finished reading that. And I studied all the circuits and this that and the other to where that fuel could come from. So then I went over and I undid a couple of panels and I got to the bottom of the tank, main front tank behind the pilot of this Swift and there was three pipes there and I traced them in the book and one was going up to a recuperator tank which was inside the main tank. It was pressurised from the engine. There was a rubber sock in the middle of that little tank. Pressure from the engine so that when you went into a G turn you was still getting full pressure from the engine on to his fuel to keep the fuel pressure up for his engine and that was the rubber sock in the middle of the front tank and that that pipe was the only one, I thought well there must be a pinhole in that rubber sock that’s getting through to the outside of that, but the air side of it and then coming out the drain at the back. And I told, I told the warrant officer this and he said, ‘Righto,’ and he took me onto another job then and he put a sergeant and a few riggers to work the tank out and put it on test to make sure what I said was true and it was. It was leaking. I’d pinpointed it alright. Then I was posted wasn’t I? Where was it? What do you call them? I can’t remember.
CB: So you were in Germany.
KH: In Germany.
CB: Where was that? Bruggen?
KH: Gutersloh.
CB: Oh Gutersloh. Right.
KH: Gutersloh [pause] Bassingbourn. Bassingbourn.
CB: Tell you what. We’ll have a break.
KH: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: Ok Ken. So after Gutersloh where did you go? You came back to Benson did you?
KH: Came back to Benson and the flights, flight commander said, ‘All the technical jobs are occupied but I want somebody to sort out a pain in my neck,’ he says, ‘Which is the roll equipment. I want to put you in charge of roll equipment and I want you to sort it out.’ I didn’t know what roll equipment was and I got down there and I had three sergeants. They were store bashers in the office and I had been an LAC I had a few corporals and a lot of men out in the hangar and they had twenty five Avro Yorks on the station that they could drop the ramp down the back and they could fit it out with roller seats or any anything [barrow?] and all that equipment, the roll equipment is stacked up in the back hangar at Benson and it, and it had to be sorted out. So I I had them all, all in the hangar there together in a group and I told them what's got to be done. So first of all we got some, some of the roller equipment which is racks with roller, roller balls on them. You could put things on so you could move, move everything around on them easily and assembled racks in the hangar to store these things and you’ve got to go through a servicing and then a servicing bay. US that side, serviceable that side and get a gang on servicing that lot and when they finished put them back on the serviceable rack and there were racks for holding all the chains for lashing down. All the straps, all the buckles and rings you could screw into the floor. There was all the seating. There was all the para seating. There was, there was all kinds of rolls. Centre poles you could put down from the floor to ceiling and fit seats in. All that sort of thing which was quite complicated really and these aircraft was going down the route and there was trouble down in [Muharraq?] and I was told by the wing commander to go down the route to [Muharraq?] and sort it out. The roll equipment there. And I walked in to roll equipment there and the flight sergeant in charge there and he’d put there from somewhere else. He didn’t know a thing about it and he was overloaded with the stuff. It was building up and he didn’t know what to do with it. It was the AQMs were slinging stuff off. They were getting a job sheet to carry so much and drop it off to there and this that and the other and no one was taking into account what was in the aircraft and what wasn’t and if there was room or not and it was chaos and the stuff was piling up down the end of the route. And so I went back and I told the wing commander and he said well make out, make out, he made out sent a directive down the route that any aircraft coming back with room has got to put roll equipment on it to bring it back to roll equipment Benson. So they brought it all back slowly so we got it all back and we could work it, work better then. Sorted that one out. What happened from there? From Benson.
CB: What year are we talking about now? 1954.
KH: Oh crumbs yeah.
CB: ’54.
KH: Yeah.
[pause]
CB: Ok. We’ll stop there for a bit.
KH: Yeah. Stop.
[Recording paused]
CB: So Ken, you’re posted to Hornchurch which is on Spitfire’s and they’re much more sophisticated than you’d been trained at Halton.
KH: Yeah.
CB: So how did they get you, ‘cause it’s the height of the Battle of Britain. How did they get you in on the act as it were?
KH: Yes well as an airman. Aircraft fitter. Airframe fitter. Trained but with lack of experience I was told to work with a LAC 1GC airframe fitter which – and we went through all his normal work and I was his mate as it were and I picked up a lot about the Spitfire. I was always questioning. I was always trying to get hold of air publication books so that I could, but I couldn’t get hold of any to learn more about the aircraft. The aircraft was developing in such a pace that new things were happening to the Spitfire all the time. They were improving this, improving that, improving the other and I wasn’t in a position to go in the flight sergeants office and have a look at the, have a look at all the APs and things like that. In any case that wasn’t my main interest at all. It was just getting the overtime worked. Usually working until you got the aircraft serviceable even if you were working until the midnight. It’s got to be ready first thing in the morning. If not and you do a shift work on it until it is ready. Most of the air frame work was you could, you could do it within a couple of hours. Undercart checks, this that and the other I could do in a couple of hours and carry on with the next aircraft but as an AC you could be taken off that job and put on another job even if you were halfway through it to work with somebody else but you don’t make the decisions. They do and they tell you what to do and it was that state of affairs but the more I did of that the more experience I got and the more experience you got the more responsibility they gave you to do. If you got three men and one of them has some experience and the other two are not its experienced bloke that gets the job and he’s the chap they rely on. So I found out, you find out the hard way. Sometimes you’re given the dirty jobs all the time and other times you’re not. You’re given the good jobs. So it depends who the next rank above you is and what he decides. So you’re bobbing around your corporals and your sergeants. Your sergeants were up top. They were miles away.
CB: You mentioned having to check documents. The APs are air force publications aren’t they?
KH: Yes. Yeah.
CB: When an aeroplane lands what has to be done to it before it can fly again? There are some basic procedures are there?
KH: Yeah. The pilot, pilot signs the aircraft in and he puts his signature down and puts down anything he finds wrong with it and he puts it down. That goes down in to the technical section and they put a man on to rectify that fault. So the pilot’s signature’s always there and before he takes the aircraft up he has to do the last signature that it is serviceable is down and then he signs over the top before he takes over and flies the aeroplane. He’s not allowed to take it up unless he signs the 700 first ‘cause that is the bible.
CB: In the heat of the battle they didn’t have time to do that so what happened then?
KH: Oh they did. They did.
CB: Oh they did.
KH: Yeah. Chiefy used to stick the 700 and a pen in his hand and he used to sign that and run. He didn’t know what he’d signed. [laughs]
CB: Amazing. So you’re working long hours. You get to finish the task. Where are you living on the airfield?
KH: Well before I was married I was in a block with the airmen.
CB: Right.
KH: And it was a station then at Benson here. As an airman, before I got married, and was quartered we used to march down from the block, across the main road, down to the hangars and march back again in those days. But they packed that in because it got too difficult in the end.
CB: Because the war was on.
KH: Yeah. This that and the other. Yeah. They got rid of that lot.
CB: And in the, so in a barrack block there are a number of rooms on several floors. How many people in a room?
KH: There’s a ten, ten. Twenty in a room.
CB: Yeah.
KH: And a snag in a bunk.
CB: Yeah. That’s the corporal.
KH: Six, six rooms and there’s a, there’s a static order. Everybody takes a turn in doing certain jobs. Domestic jobs that’s got to be done.
CB: What would they be?
KH: Bumpering the floor. Everyone had got his own space to do. In the old days you used to make your kit up into blankets. They had biscuits. Three biscuits stacked and then the blankets and sheets folded and the last sheet folded right around the top. Put on the top there and they had to leave that before they went, left to go to work like that. But they eased off on that situation later on.
CB: So bumpering the floor meant polishing the floor with a big bumper.
KH: Yeah.
CB: What other jobs were there you had to do?
KH: Well the, when it was your turn, what was it? Now everybody had his own window to clean. His own floor space. Bed. Locker.
CB: And the communal areas.
KH: The room orderly. There were certain things he had to do.
CB: Who was the room orderly?
KH: Everybody took it in turns.
CB: For a week or a day?
KH: No. A week.
CB: Right.
KH: There was a drying room down the back and a wash. A shower room. The toilets.
CB: How did they get cleaned?
KH: They were, they were all on a roster. So they were all done, all covered. The corporal in the bunk was usually the man who run it so it was run very smooth.
CB: Yeah.
KH: You was directly in contact with him.
CB: So in each room there’s a corporal and twenty men.
KH: Yeah.
CB: And now about eating. What was the procedure for that?
KH: Oh well. You just – what was it? [pause] You just wander over to the cookhouse with your mug and irons and no problem. Yeah. Certain times there was times when we had to work overtime on this that and the other and go back to the cookhouse and it still, it still, you’d still get fed and all that. There was no problem. IF you were orderly corporal or a orderly sergeant. An orderly sergeant in the guardroom. He’s got his job laid down down down. He’s got to make sure the NAAFI’s shut at 9 o’clock and he’s got to make sure that this and the other is done. He’s got to go around. It’s all automatic and back to the guardroom. I went to the guardroom the other day and there was two sailors there running it [laughs].
CB: A bit different now.
KH: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So what were the mealtimes?
KH: Oh normal. Half past seven ‘til eight. Work at half past eight. Nine hours. Or 8 o’clock. Depends what what you’re doing. Some earlier than others. The pen pushers well they were static but the fitters and riggers they have to adapt their work time to suit the job. If there was early start aircraft in the morning they had to be there. They were knocking off early and it was all covered that way.
CB: How often did you sleep next to the aircraft?
KH: Never. No. Never got to that stage.
CB: Not even in the Battle of Britain.
KH: No. Well I don’t know what they did our in the flights but they were, we were the fitters in the hangar.
CB: Right.
KH: Working on the aircraft. There were airframe mechanics, engine mechanics out on the flights dealing with them first hand and they had a different system to cover all eventualities.
KH: And the armourers.
CB: And the same with all. All trades the same. Yeah. The armaments sections. Yeah. Instrument section. This that and the other and they all had their ICs and they were the chaps looking after them. It worked very well.
KH: Yeah. Ok. Stopping there for a mo.
[Recording paused]
JLE: [First days?] I’d find quite interesting to know about.
CB: Apprenticeship days. Right.
KH: Apprenticeship days. Well. You were in a billet. Twenty men and a corporal or the senior man in the bunk. Six rooms to a, six rooms to a block. You’re forming, when I first joined, you’re forming outside with your mug and irons in your hand. Marched to breakfast 8 o’clock. Quarter to eight. Something like that. After breakfast came back and you squared your bed up, rolls your overalls, put them under your arm, fall in outside and you marched on to the square. A Squadron, B Squadron, C Squadron. The man in charge. The band would start up and you’d all march behind the band out the guard room and down the hill. And some would go to workshops, some would go down to the airfield and some would go to the school. About twelve — march back. Dinner. Down again. Marched down again and you’re probably a different, different place the next time and you’d go down the airfield in the morning. You were probably in schools in the afternoon. The schools cover all the theories. Worked everything out there. You’d do practical jobs. You’d dismantle it and assemble it again and various components on the aircraft. Engine fitters would be running the engines and the airframe fitters would be doing this that and the other and instruments were all covered. It was training. We would manage to get a few extra aircraft. I started off with a, with a Hampden bomber and a Hawker Demon and we had all kinds of jobs on that. We had to go over and do fabric work. You know to strip a fabric wing and build it up and repair inside. The type of wood used, the glue used and there are pins and rivets. The balance of the aircraft had to be rigged properly with a, with a straight edge, straight edge and get a bubble right in the middle, on whatever you set it at. Wing incidents. Dihedral tail. The fin slightly offset perhaps. The hinges – no play in the hinges. No play in the aileron hinges. No slack in the controls. Even had to polish the glass in the windows. Make sure everything works properly. Sliding hoods. The tyres of course had to be checked. They’d be taken off. Brakes checked to see that they worked properly. Assembled on again, undercart jacked it up, undercarriage actions. Check the hydraulic pressures. When everything’s been signed up you sign up and the NCO would sign over the lot and that’s it. The aircraft’s serviceable and nothing was allowed out until the last signature was there and it wasn’t even flying unless the pilot signs it as well. So it’s all covered. If anything goes wrong pinpoint who did it, who did what and when and who checked it. So it was a double check. Treble check. The safety of the aircraft must come first.
CB: Ok.
[Recording paused]
KH: There wasn’t much.
CB: Wait. We’re just talking about what Ken and his colleagues did in their time off.
KH: Well we took part in sport. I myself played rugby and so I used to go with the rugby team. I also did, what was it? Had to go for long walks. There was walking gangs. There was PTI down on the, down on the airfield. The PTI instructor would have us all out, arms wide, touch your fingertips all along in a line — two lines, three lines, four lines and as he did the manoeuvre and everybody followed him. Jumping up and down, arms waving, legs doing this, that and the other. Running on the spot and all this sort of thing you know and then always march. March back and, invariably with the band. The band were a pain in the ass. They used to go down in the drying room there practicing and it was din and you’re trying to gen up on a book and there was the bloody noise of these blokes trying to play these instruments. Banging their bloody drums. [laughs]
CB: Nightmare.
KH: But you had to live with it, you know. You learned to live with it. Practicing the bagpipes. They used to go up in the woods with the pipes. That was a good thing.
CB: At Wendover.
KH: In fine weather. Up in Wendover. Yeah. Heard them wailing away out there. They’re terrible things when you can’t play. If you play it properly it sounds good but pipes are terrible when they can’t play.
CB: So when you are then on a squadron we are on the front line effectively. What, how did the time off come and what did you?
KH: Well I was young in those days on the squadron. During the Battle of Britain it was, I can’t remember what I did. I just can’t. Because it was all work. I didn’t have much time off. I never went on holiday that summer. Some blokes used to go because they had a death in the family or something. I felt sorry for them but we took no leave. I couldn’t. I didn’t take any leave to go all the way down to Wales. Took a day and a half to get home some times and down again with the old puffer trains and this that and the other so I never bothered. Just go with the lads down to the village, to a pub and have a game of darts and this that and the other. Whenever possible if there was an organisation or sport I used to put my name down to play rugby and I did very well at that. Although I was small I was scrum half. Put the ball in. Talking about rugby I got in the desert in Egypt and the scrum down and the sand was blowing up the dust and you had the ball to shove in to the scrum and you could hardly see the hole to put the ball in. And the dust would cake around your mouth and you were covered in it and it were — [laughs]. Then again in Berlin I played rugby in the Olympic Stadium, Hitler’s Olympic stadium and snow was on the deck there. On the grass. And we played in three inches of snow. We played rugby there. So there’s a contrast for you. Desert and snow. But mainly it’s a grotty old station camp, station field which had probably got a slope in it and probably a low end where there was a load of mud and a dry end up the top but you adapt yourself to all these conditions and sometimes to your advantage.
CB: Good. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Hicks
Identifier
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AHicksDK151103
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:21:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Hicks grew up in Wales and joined the Royal Air Force as an Apprentice Mechanic at RAF Halton. He worked on Spitfires during the Battle of Britain. He was later posted to Rhodesia and survived a crash in the bush. After the war, He took part in the Berlin Airlift and found a civilian worker who had died and been buried under the snow.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Africa
Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Kent
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1948
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
222 Squadron
C-47
fitter airframe
ground crew
ground personnel
RAF Abingdon
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Benson
RAF Halton
RAF Hornchurch
RAF Manston
Spitfire
Tiger Moth
York
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wedding and Honeymoon
Description
An account of the resource
Left page.
Top left - Stephen and Joy Dawson in centre of wedding photograph of nine people in front of church door. Captioned 'Most important half'.
Top right - Stephen and Joy Dawson stand in front of wedding party photograph of group in front of church door. Captioned 'Full set'.
Middle left - group of four women and two men in formal wear standing in a garden with house with window in background. Captioned 'Relations'.
Middle right - group of men in suits with one woman standing in a garden with house in the background. Captioned 'The Kreme - under the weather like the photographer (Dad)'.
Bottom left - Stephen Dawson in airline uniform and another man in suit stand with Joy Dawson and bridesmaids all in wedding attire. Captioned 'Diversion? Enter the Kreme with pints for all'.
Bottom right - Stephen and Joy Dawson standing in a garden. In the background a man is kneeling alongside a bridesmaid talking to a child. In the background trees. Captioned 'What IS the best man doing'.
Right page.
Title 'Honeymoon Oct 47'
Top left - Joy Dawson in coat and hat standing in a columned doorway. Caption 'Lets go in - the woman'.
Top right - Hotel on a riverbank with surrounding trees. Captioned 'The Complete Angler - Marlow'.
bottom left - in the foreground a river with weir on the right. On the far bank on the left a church. Caption 'The church and weir'.
Bottom right - Stephen Dawson in a rowing boat with no oars in a river. On the far bank a building. Captioned 'Sink or swim - the man'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1947-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Ten b/w photographs on two album pages
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PDawsonSR16010064, PDawsonSR16010065, PDawsonSR16010066, PDawsonSR16010067, PDawsonSR16010068, PDawsonSR16010069, PDawsonSR16010070, PDawsonSR16010071, PDawsonSR16010072, PDawsonSR16010073, PDawsonSR16010074
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Marlow (Buckinghamshire)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1947-10
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
love and romance
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marlow and Basset Woods
Description
An account of the resource
Left page.
Top left - Two swans in water at riverside. Captioned 'Swans'
Top right - Joy Dawson sitting on a fence on the riverbank. In the background trees line the bank and a church. Captioned 'The feeder of'.
Bottom left - Joy Dawson sitting leaning against a tree with river in the background. Captioned 'Resting'.
Bottom right - the Compleat Angler Hotel from Marlow bridge with river in the foreground. Captioned 'Same place!'.
Right page.
Title 'Bassett Woods'
Top left - Joy Dawson holding a kitten with another woman both wearing jacket and skirt standing on a road in front of a car. Captioned 'New'.
Top right - Woman wearing jacket and skirt standing in road beside a car'.
Middle left - Joy Dawson wearing jacket and skirt standing with one foot on running board of a car.
Bottom left - head and shoulders view of woman.
Bottom right - Joy Dawson wearing jacket and skirt standing holding a kitten and talking to a man wearing dark jacket. In the background a car and trees. Captioned 'Kitten - "Mickey"'. On the reverse 'Mummy and Daddy Nov 47'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1947-11
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Nine b/w photographs mounted on two album pages
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PDawsonSR16010075, PDawsonSR16010076, PDawsonSR16010077, PDawsonSR16010078, PDawsonSR16010079, PDawsonSR16010080, PDawsonSR16010081, PDawsonSR16010082, PDawsonSR16010083, PDawsonSR16010084
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Marlow (Buckinghamshire)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1947-11
animal
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/407/6865/LAnsellHT1893553v1.1.pdf
edfc366bd5e7a30081d45f021fab8420
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ansell, Henry
Henry Ansell
H T Ansell
Description
An account of the resource
28 items. The collection concerns Sergeant Henry Thomas Ansell, DFM (b. 1925, 1893553 Royal Air Force) and contains his logbook, his release book, a school report, two German language documents and several photographs, his medals and other items. Henry Ansell served as a flight engineer with 61 Squadron and 83 Squadron Pathfinders.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Vicki Ansell and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ansell, HT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harry Thomas Ansell's flying log book for flight engineers
Description
An account of the resource
The log book covers the training and operational duties of Flight Engineer Sergeant Harry Thomas Ansell, from 14 April 1944 to 24 May 1945. He trained at RAF Torquay, RAF St Athan, RAF Stockport and was stationed at RAF Wigsley, RAF Syerston, RAF Skellingthorpe and RAF Coningsby. Aircraft flown in were Stirling and Lancaster. He flew 34 operations with 61 Squadron, 15 daylight and 19 night, and 18 night operations with 83 Squadron. Targets in Belgium, France, Germany and Norway were Limoges, Prouville, Vitry, Doullens, Chalindrey, Villeneuve-St-Georges, Caen, Revigny, Courtrai, Kiel, Donges, Saint-Cyr, Lyons, Stuttgart, Cahienes, Joigny-Laroche, Pas de Calais, Bois de Cassan, Saint-Leu-d'Esserent, Secqueville, Châtellerault, Bordeaux, Rüsselsheim, Königsberg, Rollencourt, Brest, Le Havre, Darmstadt, Boulogne, Bremerhaven, Rheydt, Munich, Heilbronn, Glessen, Politz, Merseberg, Brux, Karlsruhe, Ladbergen, Dresden, Rositz, Gravenhorst, Bohlen, Horten Fiord, Molbis and Lutskendorf. His pilot on operations was Flight Lieutenant Inness.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Norway
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Devon
England--Greater Manchester
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium--Kortrijk
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Brest
France--Caen
France--Calais
France--Chalindrey
France--Châtellerault
France--Creil
France--Doullens
France--Joigny
France--Le Havre
France--Limoges
France--L'Isle-Adam
France--Paris
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Bremerhaven
Germany--Darmstadt
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Heilbronn
Germany--Hörstel
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Rheydt
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wettin
Norway--Horten
Russia (Federation)--Kaliningrad (Kaliningradskai︠a︡ oblastʹ)
Germany--Böhlen
France--Lyon
Russia (Federation)
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LAnsellHT1893553v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-06-19
1944-06-20
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-06-25
1944-06-27
1944-06-28
1944-06-29
1944-07-12
1944-07-13
1944-07-14
1944-07-15
1944-07-18
1944-07-19
1944-07-20
1944-07-21
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-27
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-07-31
1944-08-01
1944-08-02
1944-08-05
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-09
1944-08-10
1944-08-11
1944-08-12
1944-08-13
1944-08-14
1944-08-26
1944-08-27
1944-08-31
1944-09-05
1944-09-10
1944-09-11
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-14
1944-09-18
1944-09-19
1944-09-20
1944-11-26
1944-11-27
1944-12-04
1944-12-06
1944-12-10
1944-12-21
1944-12-22
1945-01-13
1945-01-14
1945-01-15
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-06
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-02-23
1945-02-24
1945-03-20
1945-03-21
1945-04-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944
1945
1654 HCU
61 Squadron
83 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of the Pas de Calais V-1 sites (24/25 June 1944)
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
RAF Stockport
RAF Syerston
RAF Torquay
RAF Wigsley
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/459/8034/BNorthGJNorthGJv1.1.pdf
e2ed89186df7c2effb65cb00cef77577
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
North, Geoffrey John
North, G J
North, Johnny
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Geoffrey John 'Johnny' North, DFC, (173836, Royal Air Force) who served as a rear gunner on 428, 76 and 35 Squadrons flying Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He was called up in 1940 from his job as a tailor in Saville Row where he returned after the war. He was shot down on an operation to Duisburg on 21 February 1945. The collection contains his logbook, an account of his shooting down, capture and time as a prisoner of war, including documentation, forced march to another camp in 1945, liberation and repatriation. The collection includes membership documents for Royal Air Force Association, Pathfinders Association and Caterpillar Club as well as personnel documentation, Pathfinder badge correspondence and photographs of crew and squadron as well as other memorabilia.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Carole Bishopp and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
North, G
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PART I
I WANDERED
LONELY AS A
CLOUD !!
21/2/45. Baled out 23.05 landed
23.20. S/C 23.59 walked 12 miles.
22/2/45 Captured 10AM by Civil Police.
10/12 Police Station. 12/2 Jail, 2/6 Motorbike
to front line. Watch etc taken. Marched 8
miles via transit camp with 8 soldiers to
[undecipherable] village. Slept in stairs in
abandoned school.
23/2/45 First Food, Bread Marg. Tinned Meat
Tea. Marched 14 miles via Rhine Ferry to
Transit Camp. Lt Lindsey.
24/2/45 [undecipherable] Horse & Cart to Stalag
at Barchalt. 5 to a cell, radiator, [undecipherable]
& 1 blanket. Comfort!
[Page Break]
25/2/45 Barchalt. 26/2/45 Barchalt
27/2/45 Barchalt to Hansdorf Marched 8
miles through [cross out] Munster.
28/2/45 Left Hansdorf 1/3/45 Travelling
2/3/45 Travelling, Kassell, Legless Aussie
3/3/45 arrived Obereusel. 4/5/45 Obereusel.
5/3/45 Obereusel 6/3/45 Left Obereusel.
7/3/45 Arrived Dulay Luft. 1st Shower,
Food, Beds, Clothing. Soap, Hair Cut, etc.
8/3/45 Left Dulay,
9/3/45 Train Bombed at Niederhausen [inserted] By USA MARAUDERS [/inserted]
Walked 5 k’metre to Eppstein.
10/5/45 Eppstein. 11/5/45 Left Eppstein
at night. travell [crossed out]] 12/3/45 Travelling
13/3/45 Travelling 14/3/45 Travelling
15/3/45 Arrived Stunlayer Thank God!
[Page Break]
PARTII THE TREK
4/4/45 Left Kreigsgefangenenlager der Luft III
on the march. Slept in Pine Wood
5/4/45 Divebombed [inserted] BY USA THUNDER BOLTS [/inserted] Reached outskirts of
Neumarht @1500. Raining at 1800
[undecipherable] at 2300.
6/4/45 Fell in @ 02.00 marched in Rain
till 0600. Slept in pine wood in the
rain. S/C 10.00. Reached Barching Stadt
Ground Bread Honey Tinned Meat, Traded
for bottles & matches. Slept church.
7/4/45 Left column fort before [undecipherable]
Bathing Pond
8/4/45 Lift to top of hill. Walked on
alone caught up column, Frosty.
9/4/45, With column all day. Issued
[Page Break]
Parcel at Nieustadt. Bridge mined.
10/4/45 Stayed near Nieustadt all day with
sick. Wizard Farm, Lau Joe Darky Ben Eggs., all our aim.
11/4/45 French Parcel. Bullock Waggon
for 11 k’ometres. Break at midday, forts
bombing all round us.
12/4/45 Stayed in same village, Lau Green, Joe
Darley, Ben Chris & Me. Orchard.
13/4/54 Refined Mess Party on the
road Marched 5 K’metres
14/4/45 stayed put all day, old lady no trade
15/4/45 Stayed Put.
16/4/45 Marched 10 K’metres to Pfeffenhausen.
Kimi and myself. Large Spud issue
17/4/45 Marched 10 k’metres to Obermunchen
3 Eggs. 20 French Fags
18/4/45 Left Obermunchen 17.00 marched 7
K’metres to Naider Munchen
[Page Break]
PART II CONTD
19/4/45 Stayed Naider Munchen. Acquired
a new bottle.
20/4/45 Marched 8 k’metres. Arrived
Maasburg.
[Page Break]
PART III
KRIEGIE No MORE
29/4/45 Fighting heard @ 09.00. Stars
& Stripes raised in camp at 12.30. Tank
& Jeeps in compound @14.30.
1/5/45 Issue White Bread, Flour, Good
[undecipherable] Kiwi acquired Frying Pan.
Rhubarb
2/5/45 Rice + Rhubarb Pancakes.
3/5/45 Doughnuts
4/5/45[undecipherable] + Mirror Pictures Rhubarb
Potatoes, Killed Pig.
5/5/45 Wood from house. Celery Onions
& Parsnips acquired. Pork Chops & chips
for breakfast.
[deleted] 6/5/45 pork chop and chips [/deleted]
[Page Break]
6/5/45 Pork chops, Roast and Mashed spuds
Parsnips, Plum Pudding. Killed a
Rabbit. Announced 10,000 leaving
Tomorrow
7/5/45 Breakfast Pork chop and chips,
Deloused. Rabbit Stew. Corned Beef
Hash Prunes & Toothpaste blancmange
8/5/45 Kiwi & Tom left @ 05.30, Fried Eggs
Spam Spuds & bread, Cereal. Victory Fudge
Moved out @ 5minutes notice left camp at 13.15
Lorry to Landshut airfield. Back to Landshut &
in billet @1800. K Rations, Bouillon, corned
Pork Roll, Plum Pudding. German Beer!!!
9/5/45 Ham & Egg Toast & Marmalade. Airfield
All day, Landshut Bouillon, Canned Pork Loaf
& Spam and Tomatoes.
16/5/45 Shredded Wheat, Ham & Eggs, LT.
HARRINGTON DAKOTA B 09.35 2.25
[Page Break]
PART III Cont’d
To Rheim. Lorry to Camp. Meal Corned
Beef Peas and Potatoes Peaches Coffee, Lorry
To Juviencourt w/o BELIVEAU. Lancaster
18.25
W 01.35 to Westcolt.
11/5/45 00.30 Lorry to Leighton Buzzard. Train
to Cosford. Registration Telegram Bath [deleted] Bed [/deleted]
& Breakfast & bed. 14.00 – 17.00 Doc
Clothing etc.
12/5/45.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Geoffrey North account of being shot down and time as prisoner of war
Description
An account of the resource
A day by day account consisting of three parts. Part one covers his being shot down on 21 February 1945, his capture and journey to prisoner of war camp arriving 15 March 1945 including an mention that his train was bombed by Marauders. Part two covers forced march from prisoner of war camp 'Kreigsgefaninenlager der Luft 3' from 4 April 1945 to to Moosburg on 20 April 1945 and includes account of being strafed by Thunderbolts. Part three covers liberation by United States army on 29 April 1945 to his repatriation by C-47 and Lancaster on 10 May 1945. In part 3 he writes enthusiastically about the meals and food. The account is written on American red cross paper.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Geoffrey North
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Eight page handwritten document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BNorthGJNorthGJv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Bocholt
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Oberursel
Germany--Eppstein im Taunus
Germany--Neustadt an der Weinstrasse
Germany--Moosburg an der Isar
Germany--Landshut
France
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Aylesbury
England--Bedfordshire
England--Leighton Buzzard
England--Shropshire
England--Telford
France--Reims
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-21
1945-02
1945-03
1945-04-04
1945-04
1945-04-29
1945-05
1945-05-10
1945-05-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Claire Monk
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bale out
C-47
Dulag Luft
Lancaster
military living conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
prisoner of war
RAF Cosford
shot down
the long march
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/459/8035/BNorthGJNorthGJv2.2.pdf
e93160163154f39a8cee009159ed8663
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
North, Geoffrey John
North, G J
North, Johnny
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Geoffrey John 'Johnny' North, DFC, (173836, Royal Air Force) who served as a rear gunner on 428, 76 and 35 Squadrons flying Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He was called up in 1940 from his job as a tailor in Saville Row where he returned after the war. He was shot down on an operation to Duisburg on 21 February 1945. The collection contains his logbook, an account of his shooting down, capture and time as a prisoner of war, including documentation, forced march to another camp in 1945, liberation and repatriation. The collection includes membership documents for Royal Air Force Association, Pathfinders Association and Caterpillar Club as well as personnel documentation, Pathfinder badge correspondence and photographs of crew and squadron as well as other memorabilia.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Carole Bishopp and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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North, G
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GEOFFREY JOHN NORTH. REAR GUNNER.
PART 1. “I Wandered Lonely as a Cloud”.
21/2/45 20.05 [inserted] R [/inserted] LANCASTER F/LT TROPMAN D.F.C. REAR GUNNER. OP.DUISBERG.
21.02.45. Bailed out at 23.05, landed 23.20 S/C 23.59.
Walked 12 miles.
22.02.45 Captured 10 am by civil police. 10.12 police station. 12.02 jail. 14.06 motorbike to front line. Watch etc. taken. Marched 8 miles via transit camp with 8 soldiers to burning village. Slept on straw in abandoned school.
23.02.45. First food – bread, marg, tinned meat, tea. Marched 14 miles via Rhine Ferry to transit camp. Lt. Lindsey - ? one of “Geoff’s” crew.
24.02.45. Soup! Horse and cart to Stalag at Bocholt. Five to a cell, radiator, pallias[?] & 1 blanket. Comfort!
25.02.45 – 26.02.45 Bocholt Stalag (POW camp).
27.02.45 Bocholt to Hansderf(?) marched 8 miles Munster.
28.02.45 Left Hansderf.
1.03.45 Travelling.
2.03.45 Arrived Kassell, “Legless” Aussie – as in “no legs”.
3.03.45 Arrived Oberursel [left to right arrow] 6/03.45.
7.03.45 Arrived Dulag Luft. Hot shower, food, beds, clothing, soap, hair cut etc.
8.3.45 Left Dulag.
9.03.45 Train bombed at Neidernhausen by U.S.A. marauders, walked 5k to Eppstein.
10.03.45. Eppstein. 11.03.45 Left Eppstein at night.
12.03.45 – 14.03.45 Travelling.
15.03.45 Arrived at Stanlayer? [?] Staumlager? [?] THANK GOD.
PART 2 The Trek.
[deleted] Lasted until [/deleted]
[page break]
04/04/45. Left kreigsgefanginenlager [sic] der Luft 3 POW camp, on the march, slept in pine woods.
5.04.45 Dive-bombed by USA Thunderbolts. Reached outskirts of Neumarket at 15.00 hrs. Raining at 18.00, soup at 23.00.
6.04.45 Fall in at 02.00, marched in rain until 06.00, slept in pine wood in rain. S/C 10.00. Reached Berching Stadt. Issued bread, honey, tinned meat. Traded for bottles and matches. Slept church.
7.04.45. Left column just after Beilingries [Beilngries] bathing pool.
8.04.45. Lift to top of hill, walked on alone, caught up with column. Frosty.
9.04.45. With column all day. Issued parcels at Neustadt. Bridge mined.
10.04.45. Stayed near Neustadt all day with sick Lou, Joe, Darky/Darby Ben. Wizard farm, barn, eggs, all our own.
11.04.45. French parcel. Bullock wagon for 11km. break at midday, forts? fortress bombing all round us.
12.04.45 Stayed in same village. Lou Green, Joe, Darky/Darby, Ben, Chris & pal. Orchard.
13.04.45 Rejoined main party on the road, marched 5km.
14.04.45 – 15.04.45 Stayed put. Old lady “no trade”.
16.04.45 Marched 10km to Pfeffenhousen.[sic] Kiwi and myself. Large spud issue.
17.04.45 Marched 10km. to Obermunchen. 3 eggs. 20 french fags.
18.04.45. left Obermunchen 17.00, marched 7km. to Neider Munchen.
19.04.45. Stayed at Neider Munchen. Acquired a new bottle.
20.04.45. Marched 8km, arrived Moosburg Stalag.
PART 3.
KRIEGIE NO MORE.
[page break]
29.04.45. Fighting heard at 09.00. Stars and Stripes raised in camp at 12.30. Tanks and jeeps in compound at 14.30.
01.05.45. Issue white bread, flour, good soup. Kiwi acquired frying pan, rhubarb.
02.05.45. Rice and rhubarb pancakes.
03.05.45. Doughnuts.
04.05.45. Into town. Mirror, pictures, rhubarb, potatoes. Killed pig.
05.05.45. Wood from house. Celery onions and parsnips acquired. Pork shop and chips for breakfast.
06.05.45. Pork chops, roast and mashed spuds, parsnips. Plum pudding. Killed a rabbit. Announced 10,000 leaving tomorrow (Moosburg – 80,000 detained).
07.05.45 Breakfast pork chop & chips. Deloused. Rabbit stew. Corned beef hash, prunes, [underlined] tooth-paste blancmange. [/underlined]
08.05.45. Kiwi and Tom left at 05.30. Fried eggs, spam, spuds, bread, cereal. Victory fudge. Moved out at 5 minutes notice; left camp at 13.15. Convoy to Landshut [deleted one letter] airfield Back to Landshut, in billet 18.00. Krations, bouillon, corned[?] pork roll, plum pudding. GERMAN BEER!!!
09.05.45. Ham and eggs, toast & marmalade. Airfield all day Landshut. Bouillon, corned pork load, spam and tomatoes.
10.05.45. Shredded wheat, ham and eggs. LT. HARRINGTON DAKOTA.B09.35 2.25 to Rheims. Lorry to camp. Meal, corned beef peas potatoes, peaches, coffee. Lorry to Jurincourt. W/O BELIVEAU, Lancaster 18.25/01.35 hrs. to Westcott.
11.05.45. 00.30 lorry to Leighton Buzzard. Train to Cosford. Registration, telegram. Bath, breakfast, bed. 14.00 – 17.00 Doctor, clothing etc.
[page break]
Footnotes.
Kassell – HQ for WEHRKREIS IX, & local sub-camp of Dachau concentration camp; provided forced labour for Henschel facilities. SEVERELY BOMBED.
Oberursel – North West of [deleted] Franf [/deleted] Frankfurt, east of Kronberg. U.S. & G B Airmen passed through, interrogated & “processed” into P.O.W. system. “Transit camp of Luftwaffe”, in town. Name shortened to Dulag Luft, or Dulag.
Neidernhausen – Allies advance in ’44 due to strategic rail importance. Heavily bombed especially on 22.02.45.
14/4/45. Old lady no trade – Geoff told me they had tried to barter with her in exchange for food, but she refused. Maybe terrified of recriminations?
Moosburg – Stalag (POW camp). Originally planned to hold 10,000 prisoners, by end of war some 80,000 detained.
[deleted] Keirgie [/deleted] Kriegie – slang for Allied POW in WWII German POW (internment) camp.
Jurincourt – abandoned (now) military airfield, in Aisne region of France. Built by French air force before WWII, grass runways. Taken over and expanded to become one of the main Luftwaffe air bases during German occupation – fighter and bomber planes. Seized by Allies in ’44, became major USAF base for fighter, bomber, & transport units, for remainder of war.
[page break]
Hasderf / Hansdorf )
Stamlayer /Staumlager ) no trace on internet for these spellings.
11/4/45 “forts bombing - ? Fortress planes?
[page break]
Three months after repatriation Geoff was flying again, 35 Squadron 8 Group, Grarely. [?] He flew three missions in Lancasters, 2 with F/Lt. Ashwell, one with Sq/Ld[?] Baldwin DFC, DFM, DSO.
In September 45, he flew twice as a passenger from Graveley – Tibbenham – Berlin, with F/Lt. England and returning Berlin – Tibbenham – Graveley.
His total Daylight flying time shows 289.40
His total Nightime [sic] flying time was 381.15
Total flying hours 670.55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Geoffrey North rewritten account of being shot down and time as prisoner of war
Description
An account of the resource
A day by day account consisting of three parts. Part one covers his being shot down on 21 February 1945, his capture and journey to prisoner of war camp arriving 15 March 1945 including an mention that his train was bombed by Marauders. Part two covers forced march from prisoner of war camp 'Kreigsgefaninenlager der Luft 3' from 4 April 1945 to to Moosburg on 20 April 1945 and includes account of being strafed by Thunderbolts. Part three covers liberation by United States army on 29 April 1945 to his repatriation by C-47 and Lancaster on 10 May 1945. In part 3 he writes enthusiastically about the meals and food. The account is written lined paper. At the end footnotes concerning Kassel, Oberursel, Neidenhausen, Moosburg, Kriegie and Juvincourt. Followed by some research notes and descriptions of Geoffrey North's flying after his repatriation.
Format
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Six page handwritten document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BNorthGJNorthGJv2
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Bocholt
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Oberursel
Germany--Eppstein im Taunus
Germany--Neustadt an der Weinstrasse
Germany--Moosburg an der Isar
Germany--Landshut
France
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Bedfordshire
England--Shropshire
England--Cambridgeshire
France--Juvincourt-et-Damary
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-21
1945-02
1945-03
1945-04-04
1945-04
1945-05
1945-05-10
1945-05-11
1945-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Geoffrey North
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
David Bloomfield
Anne-Marie Watson
Emily Jennings
35 Squadron
bale out
C-47
Dulag Luft
Lancaster
military living conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
prisoner of war
RAF Cosford
RAF Graveley
shot down
the long march
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/459/8042/MNorthGJ173836-160523-03.2.pdf
1b6b4f90427c601170a7718db2cd75bf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
North, Geoffrey John
North, G J
North, Johnny
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Geoffrey John 'Johnny' North, DFC, (173836, Royal Air Force) who served as a rear gunner on 428, 76 and 35 Squadrons flying Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He was called up in 1940 from his job as a tailor in Saville Row where he returned after the war. He was shot down on an operation to Duisburg on 21 February 1945. The collection contains his logbook, an account of his shooting down, capture and time as a prisoner of war, including documentation, forced march to another camp in 1945, liberation and repatriation. The collection includes membership documents for Royal Air Force Association, Pathfinders Association and Caterpillar Club as well as personnel documentation, Pathfinder badge correspondence and photographs of crew and squadron as well as other memorabilia.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Carole Bishopp and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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North, G
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Gravely.
35 Squadron 8 Group
8/8/45 Lancaster O
F/Lt. Ashwell.
Duty Rear Gunner
Ferry Base – Downham Base 00.50
14/8 Lancaster U
Fl. Lt. Ashwell
Duty Rear Gunner
Cross Country. 3hr.50
09/8 Y Lancaster Sq. Ltd. [sic] Baldwin
DFC DFM DSO
Duty rear gunner.
Ferry Marseilles – Tibbenham Base.
07.50.
[Page break]
Feb 45
5 flights –
Pilot F/Lt. Tropman
DFC.
from 13/2/45 to
21.2.45 –
Operations Duisberg
MISSING.
On 8/5/45 Repatriation.
2 entries
09.30 Dakota
Pilot Lt Harrington
Duty – Passenger.
Remarks Landshut – Rheims [deleted] 027’ [/deleted] 02.15
18.00 Lancaster
Pilot W/O Bellvean
duty Rear Gunner
Remarks Junncourt – Westcott. 02.30
[Page break]
8 Group H Q.
28/9/45 0730. Lancaster
* Fl. Lt. England
Duty Passenger.
Gravely – Tibbenham – Berlin 3.10
29/9/45 Lancaster
* Fl. Lt. England
Duty Passenger.
Berlin – Tibbenham – Gravely 3.15
* Could this be Dr. Mike England’s father – I am reasonably confident he was in the RAF, & would have been in the right age group.
[Page break]
35 Squadron 8 Group
Gravely.
17/9/44 -> 30/9/44
9 flights –
Pilots G. Capt Dean DSO DFC + Bar (twice)
Fl. Lt. Hall DFC 7 [deleted] 6 [/deleted] times.
Awarded DFC.
Ops – Bologne, Calais
Day flights
20hr. 55mins.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Notes on flights in 1944 and 1945
Description
An account of the resource
First page records three flights 8/14/19 August 1945 in Lancaster as duty rear gunner. Page two records operation to Duisburg 21 February 1945 'missing' and repatriation flights in C-47 and Lancaster on 8 May 1945. Page three records flight to Berlin by Lancaster on 28 September 1945 and return on 29 September 1945. Page four records that nine flights were flown between 19 September 1944 and 30 September 1944. It goes on to lists the captains and mentions the award of Distinguished Flying Cross. It concludes with mention of operations to Boulogne and Calais which were day flights and provides hours.
Format
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Four page handwritten document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Personal research
Identifier
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MNorthGJ173836-160523-03
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Landshut
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
England--Buckinghamshire
France
France--Marseille
France--Reims
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-08-08
1945-08-14
1945-08-19
1945-02
1945-02-21
1945-05-08
1945-09-28
1945-09-29
1944-09-17
1944-09-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
35 Squadron
8 Group
air gunner
aircrew
C-47
Distinguished Flying Cross
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Graveley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/468/8351/ABarkerWG160912.2.mp3
5bfb31a75ec95140f42b72d5e93e8c64
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barker, Winifred
Winifred Barker nee Goldthorpe-Womersley
W Barker
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Barker, WG
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Winifred Barker.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Julian Maslin the interviewee is Mrs Winn Barker . The interview is taking place at Mrs Barkers home in Appleton near Chester on September the 12th 2016 .
WB: Appleton just, it was Upton.
JM: I apologise Upton, Upton near Chester thank you. Winn would you start by telling us a little bit about your life before you joined the Royal Air Force?
WB: Well, I was born at home at 29 Chellow Street in Bradford the eldest of three children and went to infants school and then on to a middle school and left school at fifteen, and went to work in an office in Bradford which is called the Bradford Dyers Association I started as a junior to work up to be a shorthand typist which I did attain slightly before the war started. I'm stuck now I don't quite know what else to say. I was seventeen years of age when war was declared so I wasn't eligible for the forces at that point. But I and a friend did join Civil Defence at seventeen and we were in a report centre when, if the alarm went off for air raids we had to report for duty and we were telephonists so that messages came through as to which type of bombs had been dropped and what services were required and we had to telephone for fire or the air raid wardens or the hospital or whatever was needed and then at that point I decided that I would like join the forces but I had to wait until I was older and then at nineteen years of age I decided I would like to join the Air Force and if I waited any longer I would be called up to do Munitions or Land Army both of which I didn't really take a fancy to. So at a few years before I was twenty I enlisted for the Women's Auxiliary Air Force now then I'm not quite sure where to go from there. I volunteered for the Women's Auxiliary Air Force on the 8th August 1942, just before my twentieth birthday I found myself in Morecambe for three weeks of square bashing on the promenade and getting initiated into service life this was after being kitted out in my uniform next I was sent a rail warrant to Doncaster and the service police on the station arranged transport up to RAF Bircotes a satellite of RAF Finningley where Douglas Bader was stationed I found it very exciting but I never met him. Soon after I was posted to RAF Oakley in Buckinghamshire a satellite of RAF station Westcott, my rail warrant meant travelling to London and changing on the Underground I found this very daunting as annual holidays from Bradford to Blackpool with my parents and siblings was as far as I had travelled by rail. Can I stop for a minute now....I soon settled into service life and made some lovely friends in K hut [?] of different trades and from many parts of the country Pat was born in New Zealand , Phyllis from Canvey Island, Ada from Walthamstow, Rita from Guernsey ,and Peggy from Oxford. We all went to Peggy's wedding to her Polish pilot Stefan and my husband and I visited them after the war. We all kept in touch after the war but sad to say Pat and I are the only two veterans left these friendships are precious memories. Can I stop now....Oh it's things that happened at that station. I celebrated my twenty first birthday at Oakley and the CEO noticed my cards and said I should have a treat, he reserved to seats at the local theatre in Oxford and paid for a meal for my friend and I to go to a hotel and then to the theatre.
JM: Go on then...
WB: Err we walked into the hotel to have the meal, the waiter came to ask us what we would like to drink, well at this point Phyllis and I were so surprised as we had never been into a public house in our lives and hadn't had anything to drink so the waiter suggested a sherry which we agreed to and then we had a lovely meal then off to the theatre [laughs]. When he said what sort of birthday, you know, fancy you shouldn't be having your twenty-first birthday just doing your ordinary duties you need an occasion so I thought it was extremely you know great of him to say to do that really for a little junior you know Stenographer [laughs] oh dear. So then the other things now after this are I don't whether my duties would have been interesting at that particular station? Right I'll talk about this then, are we right? My duties included typing station routine orders once a week which were recited by the Warrant officer on parade reading, oh errm all the camp service men had to parade apart from the aircrew and the Warrant Officer knew the station routine orders off by heart because he was semi-illiterate so I was asked to read letters for him and reply to letters for to his wife, he had joined the regular RAF as a young man he had a fantastic memory and was well liked. I also made out leave passes and rail warrants typing flight instructions for the training flight crews on rice paper which I found very exciting in the event of bailing out and getting captured it could be eaten. The aircrew trained mainly on Wellington bombers at Oakley 11OTU which was the final training unit before the crews were posted for operations, I'll stop there a minute cause yes [pause]. Pay parades were every fortnight on the parade ground, names were called from the registrar and we marched to the paymaster and saluted saying our rank, surname and last three numbers of our service number the loose money was handed to us and we marched back into line [laughs]. My husband and I found on reflection that we once went to the same camp dance at Marham in Norfolk but we did not meet so it was not until after, after we were demobbed and met that we started courting [laughs]. My cousin who was in the REME, the Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers stationed at Weymouth in Norfolk took me on the pillion of his motorcycle to Leicester to a concert on a twenty-four hour pass when I was stationed at the time at RAF Marham it was a nice wartime treat for us both. Well I want to stop now because errm. The repatriation of prisoners: one morning I joined some airwomen who had to report to a hanger on the station, a plane had landed with a group of servicemen from various branches of the armed services who had been repatriated from prison camps as we welcomed them we noticed they seemed surprised not quite able to comprehend what was happening, they were then given a full english breakfast which turned out to be too much for them to digest after their treatment as prisoners of war the medics were called and it was an exciting episode for everyone and especially for us a memorable diversity from our everyday duties. Some of them had a number on their arms, I was quite surprised because I thought they had come from ordinary prisoner of war camps but I don't think I imagined it but they were very reticent to really say very much about what had happened to them but they were just pleased to see errm to see uniformed members of the forces mingling with them, and talking with them.
JM: Do you know what happened to them, did they go on to other places?
WB: I think they were sent home for an extended from there...I think that's what they were looking forward to, they were all male but they were from lots of different parts of the armed forces.
JM: Did they look haggard and tired?
WB: Errm they looked rather tired, but most of them were in uniform so perhaps they hadn't been in prison too long .
JM: Or maybe they had been given fresh uniforms ?
WB: Maybe yes, I don't know really.
JM: Ok.
WB: They were certainly pleased to talk to some females [laughs] from the camp who were very pleased to speak to them.
JM: Thats good, thats very interesting thank you.
WB : I can't say much more about that 'cause that episode is a little bit vague understandably really, oh there's another interesting bit here about this, yes shall I start again?
JM: Please.
WB: We often had practice air raids on the camps air crew were immediately sent to the underground shelters but certain air women designated as wardens had to don gas masks and gas capes and started to take gas precautions against possible gas attacks it was a serious business but it did produce lots of laughter [laughs] that's all about that, that I can think of really.
JM: Was it the wearing of the gas masks that produced the laughter ?
WB: It was the fact that all the men were underground and the women were having to deal with it.
JM: Very good.
WB: Because we had to, we were given large buckets with some kind of liquid in and some long handled brushes and we had to start decominis.....whats the word.
JM: Decontaminate.
WB: Decontamination of the walls and lots of laughter was coming from the underground positions whilst we were dealing with all that, but we joined in with the laughter as well of course.
JM: Good, good.
WB: Now then there's just something here, I'm not sure about this one at all really 'cause it's very vague, am I still on tape now? One night there was a loud bang we had just settled down for the night and we were not called out, it seemed there had been a crash with two planes but we never found out what really happened so we kept quiet about it.
JM: Were you aware of how many crashes took place at an operational training unit.
WB: I don't think we had any crashes on our unit apart from this particular event but it wa kept really quiet.
JM: Did you get to know any of the flying personnel?
WB: Oh yes, yes I could mention something about that yes we intermingled with them quite a lot the quota from males to females it was about five to one [laugh] because the length of training was only six weeks and the aircrew were constantly coming in and moving out. They practiced on Wellington bombers on night flying operations and then the next thing was operations.
JM: Do you remember any of the aircrew in particular?
WB: Yes, I'll just tell you a little episode now that might be interesting, I had my first proposal of marriage at twenty years of age from a navigator but I refused him I was very fond of him he was a very nice person but not fond of enough to get engaged we did keep in touch when he moved on to operations and I heard from him that on one occasion he had been sick so he missed that operational sortie that particular time his crew flew without him and were shot down all lost their lives, it had a profound affect on him he survived the war. The same person who had courted me for quite some time we were on the camp together, took me to his home in North Norfolk and his family were very nice they were farmers and everything was very homely and the table was a white washed table which could be scrubbed as you can imagine in a farmer's family and when it came to tea time the bread was brought the homemade bread was brought and laid on the bread platter and then I was wondering what I was going to have for tea, the next thing that came on the table was a big pan and erm something inside this pan, I thought it might be stew but it didn't turn out to be stew it turned out be winkles [laughs] which I had had never ever had in all my life and I thought to myself however am I going to eat these winkles. Well his mother started to butter some bread and the plates came out and a spoonful of winkles was put on my plate and I had to look at the family to see how to eat them and they all had a pin and you had to take the winkle out of its shell on a pin and eat it and I said to my friend Leslie, I don't think I can eat these would I be allowed just to have the bread and butter and he said yes [laughter]. Oh that's it, oh dear I think I've missed alot out of this, but this is all I've got to say.
JM: Would you tell us what happened at the end of your service, when you were de-mobbed?
WB: Oh well, yes I did move around from various stations for short periods, but most of these memories are from when I was stationed at RAF Oakley, because I stayed the longest period there and made the most friends but eventually I was demobbed on the 8th May 1945 after serving for three years and eight months at the point here I would like to mention is that, no one who has been in the services forgets his service number which is quite remarkable. So I went back home, we had moved house by then to a different house but we were still in Bradford and my position at the firm where I was when I left was still open for me and by that time I had, I'd gone up from the junior to a shorthand typist so I took my place there and stayed there for quite a few months and then someone from the Land Army came back into the typing pool and was made the chief typist, and I was rather cross about that so I gave my notice in and then went to another firm as a shorthand typist.
JM: So would it be fair to say that your RAF experience had toughened you up?
WB: Possibly, yes I took umbridge I was disappointed really.
JM: And I get the impression you look back on your RAF service with a great deal of affection and regard.
WB: I definitely do yes, I had a very happy time making a lot of very new friends and yes I had a happy time.
JM: Could I take you back to the beginning of your story, you've told us about your background growing up in Bradford was joining the RAF, going through the training was that quite a shock was it a different environment from where you grew up or did you adapt to it quite easily?
WB: It was a different environment in the sense that life was different,we were living the women were sleeping in Nissen huts separated from the other parts of the aerodrome, for instance the mess where we ate and the headquarters where I worked so we had, so we were given bicycles so from then on we had to cycle from one part of the aerodrome to the other and soon afterwards I found out I had increased two stone to my weight from all this cycling around but I settled to it quite easily really, because it was exciting and what I wanted to do be in a different environment. The vicar from my church wrote to some friends that he knew in Thame which was the local village from where the camp was and they invited me and a friend to go and visit them and stay overnight in their beautiful cottage which had a lovely garden so we had passes to go there and that was really nice because these two maiden ladies treated us as their own and they said any time we had a short pass we could go and stay with them which we did so that was something that was really nice. And at another point another friend in our hut, she'd come over from America and her mother had hired a cottage somewhere near the station we could also go there on weekends and they had a beautiful garden with an orchard and plum trees and she said you can pick as many plums as you want so my friend and I picked as many as we could and put them in a parcel and sent them home they were Victoria Plums.
JM: Lovely, in my researches before meeting you today Winn, I've read that some of the the young ladies who joined the WAAF found it quite difficult to mix with girls of a quite different background and also the idea of living communally was a shock to many of them. Do you remember any of that at all?
WB: I don't remember it been a shock to me because I settled to it quite easily to it really. The ablutions were a bit peculiar because they were stone like troughs on a long err you know position and we had running water but we had no plugs so we all had to buy a plug and carry it around with us in our kit bags when we moved because otherwise you just had running water to wash your face, and your hands and your body so that was funny really because you needed to have a few inches of water to use your ablutions ,do your ablutions properly. But I don't remember finding it difficult personally no. I wanted to be in the forces, I wanted to be doing my bit for the country.
JM: And so it follows that the idea of military discipline was not difficult to adapt too?
WB: Oh the discipline you mean, yes I didn't like I didn't like parading I definitely didn't like parading and I did baulk at the idea that in station routine orders you were not allowed to wear greatcoats until a certain date of the year whether it was cold hot or what and you weren't allowed to wear gloves at a certain time, so that did err me very much I did think oh dear this is silly but of course you had to do as you were told, so that was a little bit hard for me but on a few occasions when there were general parades and the WAAF had to join in the WAAF officer let me off [laughs].
JM: How did you get on with the WAAF officers and NCOs ?
WB: Oh very well, yes very well the WAAF Officer was very kind, I think she was I think her rank was Pilot Officer because it was a satellite and when she went on her leave she always sent me a postcard and it was the comical Lucy Attwell's postcards with the shining face and the little blue eyes she was blonde with blue eyes she very pretty and we talked to each other just on an ordinary basis it wasn't as officer and airwoman she just spoke to me as an ordinary person a friend you know she was friendly. The Station Officer was friendly as well because we all worked in close proximity to each other but of course on duty on parades it was different.
JM: Mmm good, did you ever think about remustering in other trades, or were you quite happy to be a clerk?
WB: No, I was quite happy I knew I wasn't good enough to be in control in the control room or anything like that and I didn't fancy the mechanical side of it because after leaving school I always wanted to be in an office so that was why I took to it quite easily most of these friends I made were in different trades one was a parachute packer and another was a tailoress who mended uniforms and another was an engineer so you know we mixed quite well really but I was quite happy in my job.
JM: Did you talk about the way the war was going and your work on the station did you talk shop as it were or did you talk about other things when you were off duty?
WB: I think we talked about other things, I think we talked about dances and clothing [laughs] and clothing points and that sort of thing we went to, we could go to dances in the local towns with transport from the camp and this very nice warrant officer said to us don't wear your uniforms wear your civvies he said “I won't tell” [laughs] so that was quite...
JM: Did you adapt your clothing, did you make your own clothing or did you use your points to buy ready made clothing?
WB: Well I seem to remember we had a fancy dress party once and I wrote home and my Auntie made me an outfit for that and sent it on to me and it was a draught board with a very short frilly tutu skirt [laughs] but I didn't win a prize but I did take my own civilian clothes not a lot of course you couldn't get much in your kit bag could you? But I did wear a skirt and a nice frilly blouse for dancing and we did wear our nylons, well not nylons it was silk stockings then wasn’t it?
JM: That reminds me to ask you, talking about nylons did you ever have any visits from the American servicemen who were in that part of the Midlands?
WB: No, no I didn't come across Americans much being on a RAF station really there were on different stations mostly I think, so amongst the aircrew there were people from Canada, Australia and New Zealand but we didn't have any Americans.
JM; No, no, I wondered if any had visited from other nearby bases but you say not.
WB: I don't think so no, I can't remember that when I was at Marham it was an American station so there was some Americans there but I was only there a few months so I didn't get to know anybody there.
JM: What about sporting activities?
WB: Sorry?
JM: Sports, did you play much sport?
WB: I played hockey against a men's team, and we won because we got them on the ankles [laughs] but that was all, I don't think I did anything else any other sport my sport was dancing.
JM: And you'd go regularly?
WB: Oh yes, I'd never miss a dance went to all the dances.
JM: Were they on the camp or in the local town?
WB: They were...we did some on the camp but mostly they were in Oxford we were taken to Oxford most of my memories were from Oakley really from that area.
JM: I want to ask you quite a difficult question in some respects you mentioned the possibility of getting engaged to the Flyer.
WB: Leslie.
JM: Yes, did many girls get engaged or get married to flying personnel and did they have many losses ?
WB: Well my best friend Peggy did marry the Polish Officer, pilot officer and we all went, we as friends we went to her wedding she got married during the war and her Father wouldn't go to the wedding because he didn't want his daughter to marry a foreigner and Stefan was a very nice person he really nice, but her Mother went and he did survive the war because my husband and I went to visit him after the war and she wrote and told me with all these friends that I corresponded with we knew all about each other's lives after the war because we wrote to each other and told them about our children and what we were doing and everything but another friend did marry a man from the ground staff and she kept in touch with me and told me that they'd had a son called David and I knew all about her and Pat of course who is still the surviving member now with me she wrote and told me all about her family she didn't go back to New Zealand she stayed in London and she married an airman from the camp but they all survived they all survived the war the ones my friends that I remember survived the war.
JM: That's good to hear .
WB: They were very lucky.
JM: I've also read that perhaps unsurprisingly some WAAFs fell pregnant during their time on camp do you have any recollection of anybody that you know having done?
WB: Yes, one.
JM: And what happened to them?
WB: one, one WAAF that I only knew not really personally but she did fall pregnant and her husband she was married and her husband was an MP so I don't know really what happened to her but they were all discharged as soon as they were made pregnant and of course most people who joined up I believe we not married, unmarried so there weren't very many that wasn't married. But there was only one that I remember.
JM: Alright.
WB: She was discharged immediately so we lost touch with her.
JM: Did you ever get the chance or want to want to have the chance to fly in any of the Wellingtons?
WB: Oh I didn't get the chance to fly but my name was on the list because I did want to go in an aeroplane but apparently there had been some accidents somewhere around the country I don't know where and so it was not allowed anymore. But one of the friends that was in my hut did manage to get up unbeknown to the authorities what she was doing and she did have one or two little spins up did this girl.
JM: I expect you were quite envious was you?
WB: I was really yes, but I was disappointed I did want to go up in a plane.
JM: In a way Winn you were living the life which was in advance of where we are now of the women doing special jobs while the men were in the cellars you were living a life where women had extra responsibilities and duties, would you say that women were treated fairly during your time in the services as women or was there discrimination?
WB: I think so I don't think there was any discrimination really because the jobs that airwomen could do were very you know there were lots of jobs they could do that were similar to the men, the could be drivers, definitely engineers, parachute packers and that sort of jobs so they were not limited the jobs that you could do as a woman.
JM: And were women officers able to give orders to male airmen.
WB: I don't think so I think they were just in charge of the women, they were, there was a WAAF officer in every headquarters in every station but I think they were for the women that were serving really I think the men officers took command really.
JM: When you look back on your service you obviously feel that you did do your duty.
WB: Yes, I'm sure I did all I was asked to do yes.
JM: And do you feel a member of the extended family of Bomber Command which you really are?
WB: I definitely do yes I do because we've already been on one holiday to Bomber County which is in Lincoln and we've been around quite a lot of memorials that's why we went and we to the one where was the Dambusters headquarters.
JM: That would be the Petwood hotel.
WB: Yes and was it the 107 squadron Dambusters?
JM: 617.
WB: 617, and we went to all the memorials in the area around about there and that was a special holiday that my daughter and husband took me on, we all enjoyed that and we're going again this year on my birthday to go to this new memorial that going to be built there.
JM: Good, good.
WB: So I'm very much involved in it I feel.
JM: Good.
WB: I was very pleased to be asked to have these memories voiced.
JM: Well they are very important you have told us a great deal that I'd not heard before about life as a WAAF and I'm sure that the memories that we have recorded this morning will be of great interest to people researching the Second World War and Bomber Command for years ahead and so thank you very much it's been a marvellous interview thank you very much indeed.
WB: Thank you.
JM: Winn, I gather that you have thought of two other stories you'd like to record so please tell us.
WB: Yes, on one occasion I do remember being stationed at RAF Oakley and for some reason I decided to take a shortcut across the parade ground to the other corner where I was intending to go and I got roundabout the middle when a voice yelled out “airwoman” get off the parade ground and I nearly fell back in dismay because I thought what on earth have I done so I was taken to account for why I was crossing this and I was told that I was never ever must you walk across the parade ground unless you were detailed to be on parade. Another occasion was that I remembered that periodically the WAAF officer would distribute some Helena Rubinstein lipsticks and face powder compacts to us freely which were given by the company of Helena Rubinstein in America so we were all elated to have this free makeup which was a very expensive item.
JM: Thank you Winn.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Winifred Barker
Creator
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Julian Maslin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-12
Format
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00:41:46 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Identifier
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ABarkerWG160912
Description
An account of the resource
Winifred Barker grew up in Yorkshire and worked in an office before she volunteered for the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. She served as a clerk at RAF Oakley, an operational training unit.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carmel Dammes
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Buckinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1945
civil defence
ground personnel
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Finningley
RAF Marham
RAF Oakley
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/474/8361/LClydeSmithD39856v2.2.pdf
e0d96effd48c511db0b4d3f3418f4285
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clyde-Smith, Denis
Clyde-Smith, D
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains 26 items and concerns Squadron Leader Denis Clyde-Smith Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross, who joined the Royal Air Force and trained as a pilot in 1937. He flew in the anti aircraft cooperation role including remotely piloted Queen Bee aircraft before serving on Battle aircraft on 32 Squadron. He completed operational tours on Wellington with 115 and 218 Squadrons and Wellington and Lancaster with 9 Squadron after which he went to the aircraft and armament experimental establishment at Boscombe Down. The collection consists of two logbooks, aircraft histories of some of the aircraft he flew, photographs of people and aircraft, newspaper articles and gallantry award certificate.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Clyde-Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-19
Identifier
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Clyde-Smith, D
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
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LClydeSmithD39856v2
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
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Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Pilot's flying log book for Denis Clyde-Smith covering the period from 10 May 1937 to 31 May 1942. Detailing his flying training, Operations and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAF Sywell, RAF Sealand, RAF Henlow, RAF Calshot, RAF Watchet, RAF Biggin Hill, RAF Farnborough, RAF Weston Zoyland, RAF Benson, RAF Ringway, RAF Wing, RAF Harwell, RAF Marham, RAF Lichfield, RAF Fradley and RAF Tatten Hill. Aircraft flown in were, Tiger Moth, Hawker Hart, Audax and Fury, Queen Bee, Avro Prefect and Tutor, Moth, Swordfish, Wallace, Magister, Henley, Battle, Gauntlet, Hurricane, Scion, Monospar, Percival 96, Leopard, Vega Gull, Proctor, Walrus, Gladiator, Lysander, Anson and Wellington. He flew a total of 30 operations with 115 Squadron and 218 Squadron. Targets attacked were, Boulogne, Hannover, Dusseldorf, Brest, Berlin, Hamburg, Lorient, Keil, Cologne, Bremen, Munster and Osnabrück.
Contributor
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Mike Connock
Format
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One booklet
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Germany
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Bedfordshire
England--Berkshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cheshire
England--Hampshire
England--Kent
England--Norfolk
England--Northamptonshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Somerset
England--Staffordshire
France--Brest
France--Lorient
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Osnabrück
Wales--Flintshire
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1937
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
1941-02-07
1941-02-10
1941-02-11
1941-02-12
1941-02-15
1941-02-25
1941-03-02
1941-03-03
1941-03-12
1941-03-13
1941-03-14
1941-03-15
1941-03-16
1941-03-30
1941-03-31
1941-04-03
1941-04-04
1941-04-07
1941-04-08
1941-04-09
1941-04-10
1941-04-11
1941-04-12
1941-04-13
1941-04-14
1941-04-15
1941-04-16
1941-04-17
1941-04-22
1941-04-23
1941-04-25
1941-04-26
1941-05-16
1941-05-17
1941-06-13
1941-06-14
1941-06-15
1941-06-16
1941-06-20
1941-06-21
1941-06-23
1941-06-24
1941-06-26
1941-06-27
1941-06-29
1941-06-30
1941-07-04
1941-07-05
1941-07-06
1941-07-07
1941-07-08
1941-07-09
1941-07-10
1942-05-30
1942-05-31
Title
A name given to the resource
Denis Clyde-Smith's pilot's flying log book. One
115 Squadron
15 OTU
218 Squadron
27 OTU
aircrew
Anson
Battle
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
Flying Training School
Hurricane
Lysander
Magister
Operational Training Unit
pilot
Proctor
RAF Benson
RAF Biggin Hill
RAF Calshot
RAF Farnborough
RAF Harwell
RAF Henlow
RAF Lichfield
RAF Marham
RAF Ringway
RAF Sealand
RAF Sywell
RAF Weston Zoyland
RAF Wing
Swordfish
Tiger Moth
training
Walrus
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/484/8367/PBunceFSG1609.1.jpg
4fe6a915da9d42b5678afa0adccd7080
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/484/8367/ABunceFSG161108.2.mp3
c0704c95f5fe0c449e29736dbba3fd70
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bunce, Sidney
Frederick Sidney George Bunce
F S G Bunce
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Bunce, FSG
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with Sidney Bunce (b. 1925, 3006260 Royal Air Force) notes, service material and four photographs. He served as an engine mechanic with 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford and at RAF Wratting Common with 195 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Sidney Bunce and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the eighth of November two thousand and sixteen, and I’m in the village of Thornborough near Buckingham with Sid Bunce, and we’re going to talk about his time as an engineer in the RAF. So, what were your earliest recollections of life Sid?
FB: My early recollections, well, I was born in Lower End, Thornborough and, from then on, I stayed there until I was, ten years old and then by this time I had a brother Harold, he’s eight years younger than me, and er, we moved out of the Lower End into Bridge Street in Thornborough, and, Mother died in September nineteen thirty-six. I stayed with my Father, my brother he was, he went around to the police house where my Grandparents on the Baker side, my Mother’s side, they lived, and he was bought up with my Grandparents and an aunt, who was still unmarried and living there [pause] I was, I started school at Thornborough and I stayed there until I was eleven years old and took the eleven plus, and I, and I failed the eleven plus in so far as I got half way through, and in those days, I think if you, there were so many, erm, seats set aside at the [unclear] school, so that if you, if you got, if you didn’t get the full, er, the full marks that were required you could pay to go to school, but obviously my Father he couldn’t afford to do that. So, I went to what was called then, the Buckingham senior school, I stayed there until I was fourteen. When I left school in July, the war broke out in September nineteen thirty-nine, I wanted to be a motor mechanic and one Saturday afternoon my Father and I went up on the bus from Thornborough to Buckingham and saw a Mr Ganderton, who had a small garage. Unfortunately, the job had gone by the time we got there, so, went up to Cantells in West Street where my cousin Cyril worked as a shop assistant, and from there, he, my Father asked him if he knew of anyone who wanted a boy, and he said, the only one he knew of was Bert Campion who was a manager of E C Turner. He said, he wanted an errand boy, and er, so, we went to see Bert Campion and he asked me a few questions and er, I, he asked me when I could start, and I started work there on the Monday. I had about, I think it was, [pause] roughly about four months and I used to have to do the rounds, the deliveries, on a, each day in any case, and on this particular Saturday, Mr Campion he said, I want you to go across to Adcock’s and I want you to get a white jacket and an apron, and I did that and when I got back he said, I’m going to start you off serving in the shop, so for about a month, or so, I can’t remember, about a month anyway, he, only had one shop assistant and he sacked him and he put me into the, promoted me into the, as a shop assistant. I was very grateful to him in actual fact, because he taught me the bacon trade, and if you, I think if you gave me a side of bacon I could still, I could still bone it and cut it up as a, anyway, I stayed there until, I started to work there at eight shillings a week, that’s 40 pence now isn’t it, and by the time I was sixteen, I was getting a pound a week, and one of my best pals he was at a different place earning more money than I, but eventually, when I started work my Father was concerned for what I would do for a midday meal, because I was working in Buckingham, and I had an aunt and uncle who lived in Buckingham, and I went there for my lunch, from then until I went and joined the air force. But, [pause] I was upset in so far that I wasn’t earning very much money, and eventually my uncle said that they wanted a boy up in the garage at the United Dairies at Buckingham, and I started there, and I was in, I started in the garage. I learnt to drive on a milk lorry, I used to round on the milk, collecting milk and from then on [pause] Where have I got too? [pause] Yes, I started work at the United Dairies and I stayed there until I was called up in the air force, but in between times, the ATC was formed at Buckingham and I joined the ATC, and er, when I was seventeen I volunteered for aircrew, but I wanted to be a flight engineer, and actually the flight mechanics engine course which I did, I believe that was one of the training for flight engineer. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I didn’t, I was put on the volunteer reserve, told to wait for my call up, and I was eighteen on June the twelfth and I was in the air force on August the twenty four, joining at Padgate where I did what we called the square bashing and after that I was er, went to Blackpool, stationed at fourteen eighteen, er, 48 Osborne Road [unclear] shore and erm, we were taken by bus or coach to Squires Gate where we did the training as a flight mechanic engines. When I, it was an eighteen-week course and when I passed I was posted to 115 Squadron at Witchford. [background noise] I stayed there until 195 Squadron was reformed and they took our flight, C Flight of 195, er of 115, and called it A Flight of 195 and after the squadron was fully operational, for a month there were two squadrons operating out of Witchford, and then, 195 Squadron was transferred to Wratting Common. Theres an interesting story about that because there’s a Wratting and there’s West Wickham and other villages, and apparently, this is true anyway, at erm, when Wratting Common was opened in 1940, 1943 they called it West Wickham, and from my understand, the signals were getting crossed with High Wycombe, which is Bomber Command Headquarters, and so they renamed it as Wratting Common. I was there until the end of the war, when we were, when 195 was disbanded, from then I went to Mildenhall for a month, then I was put on an overseas posting, went to Blackpool, but did, was taken off before we were drafted out. Then I was posted to Wing and when Wing was closed down I moved to Silverstone, and we were the last unit in Silverstone when they closed Silverstone. We went up to Swinderby and then that was the end of my service, I went to Kirkham and that was where I was demobbed on April the first 1947.
CB: Okay, we’ll pause there for a moment
[recording paused]
CB: So, that’s a good trail of what you were doing. When you joined the RAF you’d been in the ATC so how did that prepare you for what you, what came next?
FB: Well, in actual fact, I joined the ATC because I wanted to go in the air force, I didn’t want to go in the navy, into the navy I’m not a lover of the sea, not sailing anyway, and as far as the army was concerned and after what I’d seen of my poor Father went through in the First World war, in his health. I was interested in aircraft anyway, and so I joined the ATC. We had a very good warrant officer in charge, Mike Westly, he was a very good instructor and taught us the basics of learning to, er, foot drill, not rifle drill, we didn’t have anything to do with rifles, and so of course when I went on my interview for the air force I didn’t have any problems at all with the foot drill. Rifle drill came quite easy, and it, think it really put me on a good footing for service in the air force, in the air force
CB: So, when you were doing your initial training, erm, then what did you actually do in that initial training at Padgate, activities? You had to do the drill, but what did you do overall?
FB: Well, erm, [pause] let me see
CB: So, it was learning about the RAF?
FB: Yes, we had to, you know, get kitted out and obviously we had to do our spit and polishes, record it
CB: Of your boots?
FB: The erm [pause] I remember we have to make sure with our shoes that they were highly polished and the buttons, we used to have to clean our buttons and [unclear] issued with erm, a kit for cleaning and also for, if I remember rightly sort of doing simple needlework, in so far as sewing on badges or whatever, that kind of thing
CB: And cleaning your
FB: We had some, we had some sport, that actually, that, if I remember rightly, that was an eight week course, yes, eight week course, actually we were there, I was there ten weeks, but that was the fact that we didn’t start training straight away, for whatever reason, I don’t know, I also know that Warrington was the nearest town and we weren’t allowed to go in there, apparently there’d been some problems with the Americans, [laughs] think fighting or whatever, something like that, so I think it was actually, we were put out of bounds, I didn’t miss that anyway. But after the, after that, if I remember rightly, we came home on seven days leave and then had to report back to erm, Blackpool
CB: So, Blackpool was the base for technical training for you, for engineering?
FB: Yes, well yes, Blackpool, we were bused down to Squires Gate into the airfield, and we did our training in one of the hangars, which consisted of, that was eighteen-week course, it composed of fortnightly VV’s as they called it, verbal verification, and the first fortnight we were given [laughs] a lump of metal and a file, and we had to file this lump of metal into whatever shape we were told to do, and that lasted for a fortnight, and after the fortnight you had a verbal verification. So, asked various questions on the, what you’ve been doing for that fortnight, and if you passed you went on to the next stage, if you failed you stayed on and were put back for another fortnight, and if you failed you were kicked out. Fortunately, all of our entry, not one failed. But, after the first fortnight, um, oh I’m a bit hazy on how it worked now, but the next, the next fortnight you had another verbal verification and you had to get a percentage of the questions asked, right and then you went on to the next stage. And I well remember, that eventually, we got to where the stage where we had to dismantle an engine, and one of our entry, he always had the top marks, most of us used to struggle through, and get through the minimum marks required to continue. He was always on top and he, and when we came to taking the engine, dismantling the engine, and we were taught how to take it apart and put them all in sections so that you knew when you went to replace it and put them back, he, he was hopeless, but anyway he did manage to get through and eventually at the end, the last fortnight, I was, erm, revision, and so, we revised all that we’d been trained to do and erm, then you had to go and, if I remember rightly, there was all these various parts out on benches and you had to identify them and what they did, and all the rest of it, and I passed out as an AC2, which meant, the majority of us did, but this, this, funny enough, this chap who wasn’t very good at dismantling engines and reassessing them, he passed out as an AC1 [laughs] and he went straight on to train as an instructor. But, I was posted to 115 Squadron [pause]
CB: So, you come to the end of the course and what do they do as a formality in documentation and parade?
FB: Do you mean, I can’t remember having anything, anything to say that you, I can’t remember, I don’t think we had anything to
CB: I was just thinking of when you get posted to a squadron, they want to know you’re competent, and you might do that with a passing out certificate
FB: I can’t recollect having a pass out certificate
CB: Might be in your service record, we’ll have a look. Okay, so you passed out there, there was a marching parade was there, to mark the end of the course?
FB: Er, oh yeh, well of course, so yes, we were [laughs] during the course at Padgate, then you had the parades
CB: Yeh
FB: On the Sunday, you had the parade on Sunday and so forth, and the band, I used to like, we had a pipe band, I used to like marching behind the pipe band rather [laughs] than a brass band or a silver band
CB: So, you are formed up on the parade square, there are separate sections, and the ones who are passing out are supported by the following courses, is that right? And then you get reviewed by a reviewing officer [pause] and then you march past and the reviewing officer takes the salute, is that right?
FB: Oh yes, we had to march past and salute, yes, I think that was [pause] as far as I remember, and that’s all it was
CB: And then, after that, did they give you a bunfight?
FB: No
CB: Nothing, just disperse
FB: No, we just passed out and got on with it
CB: Yeh, how soon did you then report to the squadron, 115?
FB: I came, yes, but I think I came home on seven days, I think it was seven days leave and then [pause]
CB: So, when you
FB: Yes, I had to, I had to report to RAF Witchford [pause] now I had, had a railway pass obviously, and had to go from Bletchley to Cambridge [pause] I can’t remember the next station
CB: Cambridge up to Ely
FB: Ely, that’s right. Oh yes, then we, we picked up, erm, a lorry
CB: What was the rank and status that you had then?
FB: I was AC2, AC2. While I was at Witchford, I had to, for erm, sort of erm, promotion if you call it that. I had to, an interview and was asked various questions on, well, what you knew and what you were capable of, and I passed for that, and I was AC1. I was still AC1 when we left Witchford before Wratting Common, and there again, one of the sergeants after we’d been there, been there a while, I took another exam if you like, and I passed that and became a LAC, and I was an AC for the rest of my service
CB: When you arrived at Witchford, what process did they put you through in linking you with the squadron?
FB: Well, one, obviously gone on parade and I can’t remember, but I was sort of allocated to this group with a, I’ve forgotten the sergeants name now, but erm, so I joined this, I joined this, basically the group, the small group was responsible for two aircraft, you know the pans were sort of, not too far away from one another, based round the airfield, and
CB: The pans are where the aircraft are parked?
FB: Actually stand, yeh, yeh, and as I was a sprog, newly trained, the sergeant, he put me with an older fitter, not much older, but name of Malcolm Buckingham, and we worked together on the same plane, from then right through until the end of the war, but, the sergeant, he was a very, very, very good sergeant, he knew exactly what you were capable of and he wouldn’t let you do anything until he knew you were capable of doing it, and the one of the things that you did have to make sure of when you was pulling the chocks away, to take, that you run backwards and not forward otherwise you [bang noise] you run into the propellers. Well, we did our daily inspections, DI’s, and obviously we did all the checking. If there had been any faults reported, minor faults that we could do, out on the flights, we did, if they were major they used to have to go into the hangars. But, when, as far as the operations was concerned, when, if you, normal working time was erm, eight till five, but if you were on what they called take off, you still worked from eight till five, then you went down to, well to have your meals, but you had to get back on to the air, onto the airfield an hour before take-off [pause] The crew, when the air crews were bought out and left in their different planes, I worked on A4D-Dog and the other one was A4C- Charlie, they were the two planes, but basically what happened, the aircrew came out and obviously they would have a look around, to check that everything was okay, and also inside, and when it was time to start up, one of us used to get up under the undercart, as we used to call it, under the wheels where the [unclear] gas pumps were, and there was two [unclear] gas pumps, there was one for the starboard inner and one for the starboard outer, one for port inner and one for the port outer, and you jumped up and one of you went up there and primed it, the other stayed on the trolley where the batteries were on the trolley, and when the skipper was ready to start up, he used to, well, obviously they were all, all, night operations, so if it was dark we used to get the skipper to just put his Nav lights on and off, so when I used to do the priming and when I used to press the button, and the start all four engines up, and they did the run up, we used to, when we were doing the DI’s in the morning we used to take them up to about three thousand revs a minute and then test the mags, switch each magneto off one at a time, and if there was a revs drop more than one hundred revs, then we had to do a change, a plug change. When they done there, when they done they’re run off, well, we used to take and pull the chocks out and away they went and we used to wait up there until all of them had taken off, and then as far as you were concerned you were finished until the following morning. But, if you were on all night as they called it, then the same procedure happened in as far as I you get up an hour onto the airfield, an hour before take-off and when they’d all gone you were able to go back to your billet or to the NAAFI, you couldn’t obviously, you couldn’t leave the airfield, and then you were told what the ETA was, and you would get on up to the airfield, an hour before they were expected back. I used to say to erm, well you, the, whoever you, whoever you see [unclear] I used to say to them, ‘flash D in morse, or C for Charlie’, then you knew which pan to put them on, and when they came and you put them on, on, on the pan, you used to get the ladder out, and they used to come out and you used to ask them if there was any snags, and if there were any snags, then you went and reported them to the flight office. After they’d gone, you used to go back and put the locking bars in, chocks underneath and shut it up and that was your, then you were finished, then you could go back and you had the following day off
CB: When you talk about locking bars, these are the effectively the clamps that stop the control surfaces,
FB: Stop it, yeh
FB: So, in the wind they wont
FB: That’s right
CB: Flail around
FB: That’s right
CB: Right, okay. Now as an air mechanic, what was your specific role, because everybody mucked in, but actually you had a specific, which was engine was it?
FB: Oh, engines
CB: Yeh
FB: Yes
CB: Right
FB: So, you see there was erm, there was two engine mechanics if you like
CB: Yeh
FB: And, a rigger for air frame, sort of for each, and obviously the, all the ancillary, so the armourers, the electricians and all of those, and of course did their own, their own job [pause]
CB: For each aircraft, so that there would be a Chiefy, he’d be a flight sergeant?
FB: Well
CB: Or what? ’Cos the gang effectively
FB: The gang, it was a sergeant
CB A sergeant, yes
FB: Sometimes there was two sergeants and a corporal, it just all depends how it was, but erm, yes, there was a sergeant in charge of you
CB: Yes
FB: In your little gang
CB: So, in the team, the gang, you had a sergeant, two engine mechanics, a rigger, an electrician?
FB: Well, there was a, yes, an electrician and of course
CB: And the armourer
FB: But when they bought the bombs out
CB: Yes
FB: The armourers, they, they obviously, they did the bombing up
CB: Yeh
FB: Winching up into the bomb bays
CB: So, the bombs came on trolleys?
FB: [inaudible]
CB: How did they get the bombs up into the bomb bay?
FB: Well, they put them, obviously the bomb doors were open
CB: Yep
FB: One of the armourers would go up into the plane and they sort of winched them up, they’d draw them up on
CB: An electric winch?
FB: Yes, draw them up on that, and then when they were secured, erm
CB: Where was the winch operated from?
FB: More often, but it all depends what the target was going to be, where they were going, but generally it was, it could be a load of incendiaries
CB: Yep
FB: And then perhaps a four thousand pounder or an eight thousand pounder, and then they got larger, but that was generally the load. Sometimes it would be thousand pounders, it just all depended on what the target was going to be and obviously the crew would never tell you where they were going, you wouldn’t expect them to, but they might say where they’d been but very, very, very rarely, you could get a rough idea where they may be going or what area, because of the bomb load and the fuel load, because depending on, I think if I remember right, erm, Berlin it would be almost full tanks, if I remember right, I think the Ruhr, depending where it was, sometimes it would be about seventeen fifty gallons, coming er, coming nearer to home it would be fifteen, yeh, fifteen hundred gallons, if I remember when we were [unclear] up for D Day, we were doing two ops. We used to have to get up at four o’clock in the morning er, and get up on the airfield, 1944 that was a really cold winter [laughs] we had to, well, the engines, we didn’t, we weren’t too badly off because we’d put a load of lanolin grease on the leading edges of the props and the erm, main plane, but the poor old riggers they used to have to go and de-ice the Perspex and all the rest of it [laughs] What that consisted of, we engine ones used to have a can of antifreeze, a drum of antifreeze and a stirrup pump, and the airframe, they used to have to go up onto the, onto the, on the main plane obviously, and erm, they used to have to spray the Perspex to clear them, that was quite a job
CB: What did they do? How did they clear them, they didn’t just scrape them did they?
FB: No, it was just a stirrup pump, you see, you spray it
CB: Yes, but what were they spraying? Was that antifreeze as well?
FB: Oh yes, because they got to clear the you know, the cockpit
CB: Yeh
FB: And the mid upper gunner, and all the rest of it. Tail end Charlie he was [laughs] I wouldn’t have wanted to do that job
CB: The rear gunner?
FB: Hmm, no
CB: You mentioned about the leading edges, so on the props and on the leading edges of the main plane
FB: Lanolin grease
CB: Right, yeh, right, so you spread that on with your hands or best with stick, yeh, okay, and that worked, did it?
FB: Oh yes, that worked, yeh, yeh
CB: What about things like the Peto head, you really couldn’t put anything on that could you?
FB: No, no
CB: Okay, so starting, you’ve got a trolley ack
FB: Yeh
CB: How do you go about starting?
FB: Well
CB: So, the trolley ack being the trolley accumulator
FB: Well, that’s plugged in, its, its plugged in, as I say you go up
CB: Into the engine bay, is it?
FB: Hmm
CB: Right
FB: Then, one of you, as I say, went up on the on top of the wheel in other words
CB: Yes
FB: Undercarriage, and there are these [unclear] gas pumps, and when they, the skipper was ready to start up, you used, you used to prime them, er, basically it was more like a choke on a car I would think, but you used to give them, they probably need perhaps about six or eight pumps, each pump, and while you were doing that, of course the, your mate, he was pressing the button to, where it was plugged in, to turn the engines over
CB: What was this stuff that gave the extra urge, it wasn’t an ethanol something, what was the material, what was the erm, fluid that you were pumping in to give it that surge of
FB: Oh, that was, that was petrol
CB: It was just neat petrol?
FB: Hmm
CB: Right
FB: ‘Cos you got your, obviously you got your blowers as we used to call it, it’s at the trunk, that erm, built it up
CB: Yeh
FB: You got your mixture and, away she went
CB: So, what was the engine starting sequence?
FB: Erm, you start the starboard engine, starboard engine, inner engine first
CB: Right, what
FB: Where the hydraulics are, so if that didn’t, obviously if you hadn’t any hydraulics you didn’t have brakes or anything else. And er, [unclear] it all depended on what, on what the pilot wanted to do, but that one was first, then probably it would be the starboard outer, because if you started off on that side, well obviously, you’ve got to go round to the other side to start the others up, so, yeh
CB: So, you moved the trolley ack each time or was there one trolley ack each side?
FB: Well, no, you moved it and plugged it in
CB: Yeh, okay
FB: I nearly always went up on, I nearly always went up on the wheel and did the pumping
CB: Now, this is pretty close to the propellers, so what was the procedure to make sure people didn’t walk into a propeller?
FB: Well actually, when er, when all the engines were running and they were ready to move off, you had to make sure that your chock, it was no good you see, you had the rope
CB: Attached to the chock?
FB: From the, attached to the chock
CB: Just to explain, the chock is holding the wheel
FB: But, the point is this, it was no good if you, where the knot was
CB: Yes
FB: Where it was knotted, it was no good putting the knot and straight through there, because you wouldn’t move them, you could not pull it out, ‘cos normally the wheels would move just a little bit onto the chock you see, so what you had to do, you put your chock and you run your, from here, round the front of the chock and back there, and then when you pulled it, you see, that pulled it out like that, if you did, you couldn’t get it out, if you did, it was a straight pull, it had to go round and pull it out
CB: Right, so, the
FB: And when you did that, as you pulled it, you ran backwards, no good running forwards, you ran backwards and that was it
CB Right, and there’s a chock each side of the wheel?
FB: Oh yeh
CB: And when
FB: There was, just in front of the wheel, but each wheel had the chock obviously
CB: Not just at the front
FB: Yeh
CB: Okay, at what point would the chocks normally, would they have been put in? When would the chocks normally have been put up against the wheel?
FB: Oh well, you put the, when the er, a plane for instance would come back afterwards, you, you put the chocks on straight away
CB: When its landed?
FB: When its landed, yeh
CB: So, the plane is a light at that point and when you start it up its heavy because it’s got the bombs and the fuel on, so that pushes the tyre down onto the chock
FB: Well, just
CB: Making it difficult to pull away
FB: Yes, as I say it was straight pulled, it wouldn’t come
CB: No
FB: You had to do it then and there
CB: Right
FB: Yeh
CB: So, at that point what does the ground crew do as the aircraft starts up to taxiing?
FB: Well, the er, as I say, when er, when er, they started up, done the run up, it was out turn to go off round the perimeter track to the runway, then erm, those of you there, you always used to stop until they’d all gone off
CB: Watch them go?
FB: And er, well, there’s a little bit I’ll tell you about
CB: Okay
FB: Er, later on, erm, what else, as I say, if there were any snags, but you went back to the flight office anyway
CB: Right
FB: When both planes were back, and you went and you reported, and of course the crew had been taken off for debriefing, and, when you, when your two planes are back you were finished, you could go back. You used to go back and have a meal and then go into bed and have the rest of the day off
CB: Yes, I’m just trying to get the sequence here because, to give people an idea of just how it went. So, at take-off, you, they’ve done the run up, checked and tested the engine, run up, chocks away
FB: Yes
CB: And then, what do you do as a ground crew, do you watch them go and then go for meal or how did that work?
FB: Just watch them, yes
CB: ‘Cos the
FB: I think everybody, I was taken all round the circuit
CB: Yes
FB: We always used to stop and watch them go off until they’d all gone. There was one incident [pause] obviously they, when they took off they used to go round and then they used to rendezvous where they had to go before [unclear] rendezvous to go out on their raid, and one night there was a [laughs] an awful crump and er, they erm, there was a four thousand pounder, something had gone wrong and it
CB: A cookie fell out?
FB: It fell out, yeh [laughs] oh dear, well, these things happened. The worst thing that happened, I’ve got it, I marked it there to show you. German night fighters used to, would follow them back. When I was with 115, they shot two of our planes down, because obviously they didn’t always come back together, they’d come at intervals and you stayed there until your two planes had come back. Fortunately, touch wood, old Buck and I, we never lost a plane, but that was exceptional er, I suppose, but this particular night they, you see, what they did when they came back, well, they had to wait their turn to land, and so, obviously they used to do a circuit, and it was on one of these circuits that this plane was coming in to land and er, this night fighter shot it down, they were all killed, they all lost their lives, both crews, they both, but at different intervals, the same night, we lost two
CB: What was the reaction of their individual ground crews to the loss of their aircraft?
FB: well, I don’t really know because I never lost one, but I suppose they’d be, I presume they’d be allocated another, I don’t really know about that
CB: I wondered if it was spoken about when you were in the NAAFI or somewhere, or did people ever talk about it, or did they just keep on?
FB: No, no, they didn’t talk about it, no
CB: Right, now what about accommodation, what did you have in?
FB: We were in nissen huts
CB: Right, how many in a nissen hut?
FB: Oh, what would it be [pause] one, two, three, four [pause] about twelve I think
CB: And how was the nissen hut heated?
FB: Oh, a stove, a coke stove [pause] Ah, [emphasis] we used to have a stove, up in the, in the erm, [pause] in the hut, where we, you know, kept the tools and all the different stuff in there, there was a stove in there, to sort of, keep it warm, and [pause] there is, have this coke, I mean, sort of filled it up, lit it and basically that was [pause] I mean for a lot of the time, for a lot of the morning anyway, erm, you was still working, you know, you were doing your DI’s you see, daily inspection, coal was off and of course with the Lancaster, you had to get up on these gantry’s because there was no, it was different to when I was on Wellingtons, had to, when I got round to [unclear] and Silverstone, I mean you could get on there, used to slide down the back, down the main frame on the Wellington [laughs] we used to get up there, on a Lancaster you couldn’t, oh dear
CB: So
FB: 44, that was a cold winter
CB: So, how did you deal with the cold on the flight line, in other words, out on the dispersal?
FB: Well, you, you see, you had mittens on because you can’t really feel with gloves on, it, you had to keep your fingers sort of [inaudible] [laughs] the weirdest thing was ever, if you had to do a plug change, and if you happened to drop a plug down in the trunk, of course they were v engines, you see, you could drop one down there, and that used to be a dickens of a job to get the blooming thing back out [laughs] to put it in, ah, but, at least they say live and learn, and you did
CB: You talk about a plug change, that’s because you’d get misfire was it or was there a sequence where you changed all the plugs?
FB: Yeh well, if the er, if the, obviously your magneto, it’s like a dynamo, in so far as supplying the spark
CB: Yes
FB: But if er, they dropped back there, then obviously, it’s erm, you wouldn’t need a, it wouldn’t need a, very doubtful it would be the magneto, so it would be a plug or plugs, that weren’t firing properly to do that. We didn’t have a lot of trouble, I mean that old Merlin, it was a lovely engine to work on, no problem at all really
CB: In what way was it good to work on?
FB: Pardon?
CB: In what way was it good to work on?
FB: Well, it was [pause] the construction of it, mind you, everything it was bonded, so, when you, when you took your coverings off to do your, check them, you had to check them, every one of those, and if there was, if there was any bonding broken, then obviously that had to be replaced, you see, it was for erm, obviously for the electricity, for it was a static electricity, you didn’t want anything like that, with the petrol, I mean that was a hundred octane petrol, so that was green and that was pretty horrible [laughs] oh dear
CB: Did anybody get fires on the ground?
FB: Fires?
CB: Engine fires or any kind of?
FB: No, erm, now where was that? [pause] I think that was at Wratting Common. The plane had been, been in the hangers for overhaul or whatever, I don’t know what, and the, they’d obviously had the under propeller off for some reason or other, and when they bought it out and they started it, it come off, flew off, erm but I only, I didn’t actually see it, I heard that it happened, but er, say, that plane A4D-Dog, that’s the one where this crew did a complete tour of ops, actually, that went on to do a hundred and five ops
CB: Did it
FB: But, by the time that stayed behind on, because it was on C-Flight, by that time, er, when we were, 195 was reformed, we had worked on it, Buck and I worked on it and I think they had done, either fifty nine or sixty ops, but that went on, on the history of it, to do one hundred and five, which erm, when, well when the, of course I was at 195 at Wratting Common then, but erm, when the Dutch, when they were in that, after the invasion had started and they were liberated, we went on what they called Manna, which was dropping the food supplies to them. So, we went on that and then after that, when that had finished, we started bringing back the prisoners of war
CB: Operation Exodus
FB: Yes
CB: Okay, let’s just pause there for a moment, you just have a breather
[interview paused]
FB: There’s one thing
CB: These gantries you had to use?
FB: We never had to do was wear a ring
CB: Ah
FB: Because if you wore a ring and you slipped, that would rip your finger off, you see, so, I never wore a ring anyway, I’ve never ever worn a ring in that case, but you never wore a ring. It’s like a lot of things, its common sense, I mean, there are things but obviously you shouldn’t do but if you do, well you suffer by it, really. We used to, well, I mean, oh crikey, I was only eighteen [laughs] eighteen, nineteen years old, I mean, we used to clamber up them no problem at all [pause]
CB: How safe were these gantries you used?
FB: Oh, they, they were safe enough, if I mean er, it was just a matter of climbing up on the, onto and getting on the platform, yeh they were safe enough, you didn’t have, well I didn’t hear of anyone getting injured by falling off them or anything like that
CB: So, on the flight line on the dispersal, you had a team of people we talked about just now, what would make it necessary for the aircraft to go into a hangar?
FB: If they had a major, for instance if there, had been on a raid, and they were badly shot up or anything like that, well, obviously they would go in, into for repair, er, if an engine, well, if anything really, but engines in particular, if there any major fault or [unclear] then you couldn’t do that, that was somethings obviously, you could do minor repairs on the flights but if it was a major repair well it had to go into the hangar because you just wouldn’t have the facilities or anything else to do it
CB: What about engine changes?
FB: One thing you used, well, as far as engine changes were concerned, I never experienced an engine change because as I say, the planes that I worked on we didn’t lose any, that Malcolm Buckingham and I worked on, but erm, I remember, if, if, if they had been out on a raid and they couldn’t get back to their base, [background noise] there was at Woodbridge, there’s two airfields, one was the Americans on and the other one which was what, we used to call them the crash land station, basically it was one plane that couldn’t get back to their main airbase, but they could get down there, and they used to go down there. And, what happened in that er, base, although obviously I never experienced it, but if a plane didn’t get back to, for instance, Witchford or to Wratting Common, if they didn’t get back there then the crew that serviced them they used to go over to service them and put them right and then they flew back to the base
CB: And, did that ground crew take, erm, road transport or did they get flown there?
FB: I think they took road transport. I’m not too sure about that because as I say I never experienced it but that’s what happened
CB: How many times did you have the opportunity of flying, in the aircraft you serviced?
FB: Well, no, if erm, if we are doing an air test you could go up if you wanted to, but it just all depends
CB: Why were air tests conducted, what was the purpose?
FB: When you went on an air test, obviously they would test the engines, so what they used to do, was, switch one off, off at a time and you know, get the reaction of erm, for instance mag drop, things like that. They used to try and test all four, one at a time, and then they would feather them, you know, and of course when you feather them, then of course you un feathered them to start them up again and all that and the old Lanc, that would fly on one engine, but obviously it was forever losing height, but they did these air tests just to see that everything that had been done was working as it should do. I didn’t go on many, but erm
CB: Where would you sit when you went up on an air test?
FB: Well, of course, with the full crew there, you would sit on the floor kind of thing [laughs] that weren’t very comfortable
CB: No, thinking of the
FB: And the poor old, the rear gunner, he was the worse off really because he was so far away from the rest of the crew you see, you’ve got your pilot and then your flight engineer, er, your bomb aimer observer and then of course the wireless operator had got his own little bit and the navigator [pause] [unclear] because er, well it depended on where they were going, but you get eight or nine hours, stuck up in one of those and [pause] no, I don’t think its er [pause] It’s marvellous what they did actually
CB: You said you originally wanted to be flight engineer but once you got on the flight line
FB: I must, I must admit that when I’d done my training and I went out on a and saw what was happening, I thought, well I thank my lucky stars I don’t, of course I was on the volunteer reserves, so if ever they did want a [pause] sort of a flight engineer, I suppose I would have been called up, because the flight engineer, as I say, the flight engineer as far as I can understand, their engine training was similar to what we did as a flight mechanic engines, it was just the extra, erm, you know with the checking the fuel pumps and that, switching the switch in the tanks and er, and I think that they did a little bit of basic flying if the pilot, you know, got injured or killed or anything like that, to take over, and er, but, so no it must have been. You could tell and get quite a good idea of, I mean, no target was easy, I mean there was always a danger there, but you could get a pretty good idea, if they were quite chirpy when they came out it was one of the not so difficult raids they were going on, but if it were Berlin or anything like that or, always they were very quiet which you could understand
CB: Yeh
FB: ‘Cos they not only had to put up with night fighting, there was anti-aircraft guns, must have been horrible
CB: How often did your two planes return with damage?
FB: Er
CB: And what was it?
FB: [pause] Do you know I can’t remember, if they ever did come back with any damage that I worked on [pause] no, I know that was when we were at er, at Wratting Common, about 1944, one night I heard, when, when they started sending these erm, oh, doodlebugs over, but er, they sounded, their engine, it sounded like an old two stroke engine struggling up a hill, [laughs] up a hill, kind of thing, and er, and of course the thing was once the engine cut, they come down, and this particular night, I went to the Nissen huts and there was some windows at the end, but not the end in between sort of thing, and actually saw this old doodlebug going and the engine cut, and it went down and it fell, and it fell just outside of the airfield [laughs] oh dear, it was an experience
CB: What was the most frightening part of your service, which would you say?
FB: Most frightening? [pause] I don’t really know, I do recall one thing that was happening, now when they were winching, winching erm, [unclear] it was a four pounder,
[unknown inaudible]
FB: Four thousand pounder, I think that was when
CB: A cookie
FB: Loading a four thousand pounder up, and it dropped, and we ran, we ran, and then we suddenly realised that if it had gone off, if it had gone off, we wouldn’t have been there, but er, the trouble was with the, if the incendiaries fell, I think they only had to drop about nine inches before they, and they were in long canisters, and there was a sort of bars that when, I suppose, that when the bomb aimer pressed the tip, then I suppose these bars fell away and then they just fell down in a cluster, I don’t know
CB: And er, you saw the, you were there when the crew got in the plane to go
FB: Oh yes
CB: And you were there when they came back, what sort of erm, relationship did you have with your ground crew with them?
FB: Very good, very good, yeh
CB: And so, did they talk to you when they landed?
FB: As I say, they, [unclear] what they, you used to say, ask them if there were any snags, if there were they told you what they were, but erm, they didn’t say, they didn’t say a lot, I mean, they were just waiting for the lorries, or whatever they were using to take them back for debriefing and they would say they were tired and I don’t know what they experienced, you know
CB: Quite
FB: So, but er, other times, I mean, if they, sometimes they would come out, because they weren’t, if I think, I think that what they used to say that happen one day, two raids and then down one, of course they had the leave as well, they didn’t all have the leave at the same time, so they would, they er, say if the erm, pilot was on leave or something, there’d be another pilot take over. Quite often what happened, with a crew, when they come out and then, there was a new crew had been, er, sent to Witchford, the pilot would go as a, I think they call it, a second dicky or something like that, but they used to go out, they were taken out on their first raid
CB: Just the pilot?
FB: To get the idea that and what it was all about
CB: What about the social life on the airfield?
FB: Well, what we used to do if er, [pause] when you, well you see, you used to get up and have your breakfast and then get up back onto the flight, er onto the airfield and do your work, and in the evening you could go to the NAAFI, or down into the village into the pub, which quite often that’s what we did do, and erm, [pause] I can’t remember the other, we had a cinema, I can’t even remember going to the cinema anyway, probably we did, and of course we spent a lot of time in your billet writing letters, you know, home and that kind of thing
CB: Did they run dances?
FB: Erm, [pause] no, not that I’m aware of
CB: Right, so Witchford we’ve talked a lot about, what was the difference, when you went to Wratting Common?
FB: The difference? [emphasis]
CB: Was your accommodation different or the same?
FB: No, no it was still Nissen, still Nissen huts, much about the same as at Witchford, ‘cos erm, 115 of course that was one of the most successful and er, and suffered some of the heaviest losses during the war, but, at Wratting Common, I of course, I was nineteen, 1944, when we moved into, into er, Wratting Common, I can’t remember, I didn’t have all that long at Witchford actually, I’ve forgotten though. It was definitely 1944 when we moved over to Wratting Common anyway
CB: Yes, so, you were at Wratting Common until
FB: The war ended
CB: The war ended, that is to say the war in Europe
FB: Yes
CB: Ended
FB: Yes, yes
CB: Okay, and so
FB: I think we, I think, [pause] I think it was 1946 when we actually disbanded
CB: The squadron disbanded? Yeh
FB: [pause] I’ve got some [background noise] [inaudible]
CB: And so, everybody stayed with the squadron and until the squadron disbanded, is that what you mean?
FB: Yes
CB: Yeh [pause] we are just looking at timings. So, what happened, er, we can look that up later, what happened when they decided to disband? How did that get announced?
FB: Well, as, [laughs] as far as we were concerned, they said we were disbanded and that’s one thing I always regretted because I’d always worked with Malcolm Buckingham and we never exchanged addresses or anything else, meaning we didn’t keep in touch
CB: Did you never?
FB: No
CB: Know what happened to him at all?
FB: No, and when I, when we were on holiday, he came from a little village called Grundisburgh near er, that’s not that far away from Woodbridge, and we went to on holiday to er, Yarmouth or something, well down that way anyway, and I drove round, well, that was us and the two children, I drove round to this little village, and er, I went into the pub and I said does anyone know a gentleman called Malcolm Buckingham, and they said, oh no, never heard of him and that was as near as I got to actually ever finding him. The other one I palled up with, which is on the, on one of those photographs is erm, he was a Scotsman, ‘McKay the Jock McIver,’ and he lived at Thurso, and he used to get an extra days travelling for the distance he had to travel, but if the three of us were off duty at, at you know, we used to go down, generally used to go down the pub and have a pint or two and a sing song and that, ‘cos aircrew used to down in there as well you see. And erm, it was alright in the NAAFI, we used to go, you could go in the NAAFI. If I remember right, sometimes, and I think that was towards the end of the war anyway, if I remember right, they used to have this ‘housey, housey.’ as they used to call it in the old days, bingo, you know and that, but I think mainly we used to just go down the pub and have a pint. [laughs] I was trying to look see [pause]
CB: So, so you had no control over your demob, they just decided when that would be?
FB: Well, you, you had your group you see, I was fifty-five, when I, my group, when I got demobbed
CB: In your grouping, yeh, which was, so you were demobbed on the first of April 1947
B: 1947, yeh
CB: What did you do then?
FB: Well, I came home and erm, you had accrued, erm, what was it? Fifty, I think fifty-six days, fifty-six days leave, er, yeh, and I think owed fifty pounds demob money [pause] it all depends, I think, but erm, fifty-six days leave, I think that was a, er, minimum, I think it probably, if you did more service than that or where ever you’d been, they may, I’m not sure about that, that may possible have been longer, but I think fifty-six was a, sort of a general thing
CB: What did they give you in the way of clothing, when you were demobbed?
FB: Oh yeh, you handed in your suit and you got kitted out with the, well, with shoes, socks, pants, vest, shirt, erm, now I think I’m not sure whether you could have a choice of a suit or these sorts of flannels and a jacket, I can’t remember, what did I have? I know one thing, that when I, when I joined up at Padgate, of course we had to send er, send erm, civilian clothes home, and mine never, mine never ever arrived, they were lost, which I think happened quite often, but er, yeh
CB: So, you got your leave, you come back, then what?
FB: I think I, yeh, I think I had a fourth, two months and then I went back to the United Dairies because they were duty bound, or anyone went back to their old job, or wanted to go back to their old job, I think the companies were duty bound to take them for six months. So, of course, I went back and er, [laughs] Jack Hancock, he said, ‘are you coming back in the garage with me?’ and I said, ‘I’d like to go driving if you’ve got a driving job,’ and that’s what I did. I stayed there until I was thirty four, and that was November nineteen fifty nine, I moved then, the only reason I moved was for more money, and I’d got a brother in law who works at Calvert, and he used to say, ‘you want to get on, you’ll be far better off coming to work for Calvert driving,’ and I said, ‘ah well,’ I said, ‘the problem is you get up on eight wheelers and you’ve [laughs] got to do nights out, and he said, ‘well, that won’t hurt you will it?’ But, anyway, that’s what happens, you started off on the small lorries, on the little old Albion’s
CB: [inaudible]
FB: G wagons, they were about two, what was it? two and a half thousand bricks, and then you went up onto the D, and then a K, then a L, and eventually onto eight wheelers. I had ten years on eight wheelers, I came off, my father in law had, had a stroke and er, and Mum she, she passed away, and he was living with us and, well, they were both living with us for a time, and er, he was getting a bit of a problem at night, they was having a bit of a problem dealing with him in the night, and erm, we’d got the two children of course, so I asked if I could be excused nights out, and they said, no you, that would cause a precedent if we do that, and the only answer to it is if you don’t want to do nights out, is you’ll have to come off eight wheelers, so I said, that’s what I’ll do then, but erm, I went on the stores like, the stores wagon and various jobs around the yard, and erm, when the old chap, when he died, but, see we used to start work at six until half past five, we used to do eleven hours a day, that was Monday to Saturday, and then we went down to five days a week, and erm, and eventually, ‘cos there was no motorways when I started at the Calvert, there, there was that short stretch of M1 that had opened in. I think that was in June nineteen fifty nine, I’m not sure and we never used the M1 anyway, but when they built the M4, and the M5 and the M6, we used all of those, and er, [pause] you had, before, before they were built and opened you had to stop to, wherever you were going, you had to stop on your, the route that you were supposed, for instance, if we were going down to, down into Wales, well, we used to go from Calvert to Oxford, from Oxford we used to go then into Cheltenham, Gloucester, Chepstow and then wherever in Wales it was, of course when they opened the M4, we were able to go from Calvert to Swindon, get on the M4, went down straight there, and so, and of course you used to get, when you were on nights out, you used to get your night out money, well er, when these motorways were opened, what would have been night out journeys, it was still night out journeys as far as the company were concerned, but you could get back almost to, you could get back to Aylesbury or Weston on the Green, depending where, and you could thumb a lift home and get back in the morning or whenever, and you used to get your night out money, well of course the company soon got wise about that, and so what we, there was this particular, this big map put in the driver’s room, and there was Calvert there like that, and then there was a five mile radius, up to hundred miles radius, and so, the farther you went, the more you earned, the more you were paid, and but, a lot of them soon got wise, and they thought if they could get two shorter journeys allocated to them, then they could do two journeys and they’d get twice as much money, you see, but I never bothered, by this time I was about fifty one, fifty two and I said to them, I said, to them one day, I’ve had enough of this cowboy driving and I’m going to find another job. As luck happens, I’m out every night, there was, you were put, the list and where you were going the following day, well, on the Friday, on this particular Friday, there was a notice on the notice board advertising a vacancy for a garage maintenance clerk, and I said to Tom Ridgeway who was the foreman at that time, I said, ‘I’m going to put in for that job Tom,’ ‘well,’ he said, ‘you can put in for it, whether you’ll get it or not I don’t know but you’ll have an interview anyway,’ and anyway I got the job and I went, and went onto the staff and I didn’t earn as much money, er salary weekly, but there were one or two perks and the best one actually, it was a non-contributory pension scheme, so when I, when I finished with them, I came out with a lump sum and a small pension, which I obviously still get, so that did me a lot of good in many ways
CB: But had that pension started when you first joined?
FB: When I first joined you paid in, you had to pay in for a pension
CB: Oh right
FB: You had to pay in for a pension
CB: No, when you became staff
FB: That was sort of one of the perks really, because
CB: Non-contributory, right. So
FB: So, I had, well I had twenty-seven and a half years all told, seventeen as driving you see and ten and a half with the garage maintenance staff
CB: These eight wheelers were difficult to handle without power steering, were they?
FB: Er?
CB: The eight wheelers were difficult to handle without power steering?
FB: Yes, there was no power steering on the ones I drove. I came off the road and they went over to these Volvo’s [unclear] were the ones we, they were good but you had this big old engine by the side of you in the cab you see, and it went thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, but erm, the later ones, by this time I was already off the road, but they, they did have power steering, the old eight wheelers, I used to, I never, I never, really did enjoy going down into Wales especially in the winter time, er, because they were, you know, they were building sort of up on the side of the mountain, I supposed you call it, I don’t know or whatever, but that used to be a job turning round ‘cos what we used to do, you see, you used to go down and the, they’d take, take anywhere they wanted the bricks and you set up and er, with the, before they started with the erm, forklifts and that, er, it was all unloaded or off loaded, and you had seven thousand bricks on an eight wheeler, and so, what they used to call the stick up, which was one, one row in the centre, down, and then over the side, you build it up, and then three [unclear] we used to call them, and so you used to take off half, and then turn round and take the other half off you see, well, when you were on, on the these, it needed a bit of moving, handling [laughs]
CB: I can imagine. Before fork lifts, how did you load, who loaded the trucks in the first place?
FB: Oh, the, they, the night shifts used to do that, they were mainly, mostly they were nearly all Italians, they used to be up at erm, Aylesbury, and then they, they said that er, where the old royal, when you went up to the hill, where the old royal hospital was, the other side of the road there, that was, and they used to say the Itie, erm, Italians, and someone, when I got out of bed they [unclear] can’t hear you [laughs] I don’t know, but yes, and they had a place over, oh, Bedford way, somewhere I think. [pause] It was well organised, it was a, it was a good company to work, they used to, when I came everywhere, they used to say, you keep your nose clean and you’ll be alright [laughs]
CB: Well, the pay was quite good there, wasn’t it?
FB: Oh yeh well, the first erm, when I left the United Dairies, I think I was getting ten pounds a, yeh, ten pounds a week, and the, and the first pay day I had at Calvert, and that wasn’t a full, that wasn’t a full week, and I had erm, fourteen pounds, and as you, and as you worked your way up from the small to the eight wheelers, and course eight wheelers, that was top, top rate of pay, but erm, the last week that I was actually driving, and of course by this time they started this erm, radius miles, that first, that was the last week that I was actually driving, that I earned one hundred pounds for the week, but erm, some of them used to earn that, it all depends, as I say, whatever journey they gave me I did, I didn’t rush around to try and get another journey here and there
CB: Right
FB: What I did was, whatever time it took me I did, and that was it, you know, I said, as I said to my wife, I’ve had enough of this cowboy driving and that would have been used to it
CB: This is London Brick company?
FB: That was London Brick company, but before as you see, they again, that was a well-run company, a well-run company, but when Sir Ronald Stewart retired as chairman, it seemed as it going downhill, I can’t remember who took over from him, but I don’t, and they started with training on all the systems, they had sort of a foreman and, well, had a foreman and a charge hand but then they, then they used to have a manager, and a manager and so on and so forth and all this, and I remember that they, the London Brick company, they put in a bid for it to buy Ibstock, which is Leicestershire, and that was, that was turned down, and not many months later, Hanson, put in a bid for London Brick, and that was turned down, and it was turned down two or three times and they had, they put in another bid and that was the sort of final bid, and there was a deadline when it had only got to be accepted or rejected for good. Now, I don’t know if it was true or not, but there was this er, rumour that went around that 48 hours before the deadline, that Hanson didn’t have enough shares to buy it, but it said, now I don’t know whether it was true or wasn’t true, or not, but they reckoned that one of the directors sold him his shares that gave him enough to get the, to get the owning of, and from then it went downhill, because, although the man’s not alive now, but he was nothing more than an asset stripper. He closed, he closed er, London Brick erm, and New Longville, closed that, at Calvert where they’d started doing this landfill, erm, he retained the, he retained the ground, but he shut, he sold the, and that was two, Shanks and McKeown
CB: The dump, he sold too?
FB: Yeh
CB: Shanks and McKeown
FB: For landfill, for landfill
CB: For landfill, yeh
FB: Yeh, er, then of course, Calvert went, everything [emphasis] is gone, Stewartby which is the main yard, you used to have a stores, where they used to run from the Calvert to Bletchley, well, Newton Longville to take stores or collect stores and that, to Stewartby, that’s gone, apparently Stewartby from what I’ve heard is that erm, the reason why Stewartby closed mainly, was because, like, I mean, always getting complaints, even when I was working, that erm, depending on the wind direction, they get a lot of these erm, fumes and that, even overseas
CB: Yeh, in Scandinavia they were
FB: Scandinavia, yeh
CB: Yeh. When did you retire?
FB: I erm, [pause] nineteen, wait a minute, nineteen eight [pause] I started in fifty nine, so fifty nine, eighty eight, nineteen eighty, nineteen eighty eight, [emphasis] yeh, nineteen eighty eight and when they, when they started erm, closing down, making people redundant and that, well, I had to go to the labour exchange which was in School Lane in Buckingham at that time, I had to report there and that basically was a, they knew, I mean they knew I was, they knew all about it at the labour exchange, but, you had to go, report there to ensure that you, your stamp was made, you know
CB: Yeh
FB: Until you was sixty five, and I went there and wait my turn and they gave you a form and filled it in and said to come back in a fortnight. Well, I went back in a fortnight and they gave me another form and it said, do you want work, have you sort work, what wage do you want, what hours do you want to work? All this and I came home and I said to my wife, I said, ‘I’m going to find myself a little job because,’ I said, I hadn’t received any money in that time, not from there anyway, and so, as luck happens, there was an advert in, about the only time they ever advertised, a little firm, erm, Greens at Wicking, and they made these sort of these wooden er, light fittings
CB: Oh yeh
FB: Clusters and clock cases and things like that, and they were advertising in the advertiser on that Friday, and er, I phoned up and I said, ‘it seems like you want some labour,’ ‘oh yes, can you come over and have a chat?’ and er, so I arranged to go at two o’clock on that Friday, same Friday afternoon, well I got over there, funny enough, one of the, one of the sons, I didn’t tie it up but, I played cricket for, and I was secretary of the club for Thornborough for eighteen years, and Brian Green, he had just started playing cricket, more or less as I was coming towards the end of my cricket career, so, when I got over there, I saw, I went to the office and saw Sally, as it turned out, and she said, ‘oh, I’ll go and find,’ and she found Michael, well, Michael and Tony they were twins, and they were identical twins, but Tony he didn’t, he didn’t work there, he used to go over occasionally, he’d got his own business or something, anyway I went there and he took me into the, into the factory and erm, and they’d got these machines, you know, for cutting up wood and all the rest of it, and I wasn’t very, I wasn’t very impressed with it, not really, and Michael said to me, ‘let’s go over in the office then,’ and over in the office he said, ‘what do you think?’ and I said, ‘no, I don’t think that’s for me, thank you,’ he said, ‘we’ve got a little seven hundred weight van,’ and he said, ‘ we’re looking for someone, we keep getting these youngsters that come in to drive and we can’t trust them, they don’t know whether they’re coming or going, erm, would you consider that?’ and I said, ‘well, I don’t know.’ Anyway, I took it on and they’d got these outworkers, so I used to take stuff out and deliver it and the following day, used to pick it up and take some more out and that kind of thing, and then I used to have to deliver when they sold stuff, I used to, I used to go down to, well I used to go down in Essex quite a few times, Yorkshire, Birmingham, I used to go there Birmingham quite regularly and get stuff, and take it and so it all worked out very well and I, and I got to, by this time, I had my, I was due to have my holidays and I was seventy, and er, now Laura Ashley was one of their main customers and they were also one of the their best, because they were always sure of getting their cheque monthly, where as some of the others, they had to wait for the money, you see, anyway, [laughs] so I went on holiday, and Michael phoned me up on the Sunday that I was due to start back to work on the Monday, and he said, ‘Sid, we’re short of work,’ it was sort of a [unclear] seasonal sort of thing, now I’d been working flat out from about September right round to the May, June time, and then it used to slack off again, and then it used to build up again, in sort of like, Christmas trade they used to call it, so anyway I was due to start back on the Monday, Michael phoned me up on the Sunday afternoon, he said, ‘Sid, we’re short of work,’ he said, ‘we haven’t got much for you,’ but, he said, ‘we’ll give you a ring when we get, you know, when we have got some work,’ and so I thought, that’s a good opportunity to go, quite a lot of work I wanted to get done around here, and I’d got the allotment and all, and all the rest of it, and so I said to Bet, ‘I think, er, I think that, I’ll call it a day,’ so I wrote to them and said that I’d thought I’d put it in writing, and I wrote and said that I’d decided that I’d retire, I was seventy and thanked them for, you know, the work and all the rest of it, and two or three days later, Brian, Brian rang and he said, ‘you sure you’re not going to come back?’ and I said, ‘yes, I’ve decided to pack up,’ he said, ‘we’ve got plenty of work for you now , we’re expecting you back,’ but I didn’t go back
CB: You’d had enough
FB: I’d had enough, I was seventy
CB: Yeh
FB: And I thought, well that’s it
CB: How long have you lived here?
FB: Since the bungalow was built in nineteen seventy-eight
CB: Oh, have you really, yeh
FB: It’s a, these six bungalows, three either side and they actually they are council, er, let for senior citizens or old age pensioners, whatever you call it, and we were living in a four bedroomed house, number twelve up the road, and by this time, Dad had died, my mother and father in law had died, Geoff had, Geoff had gone to Imperial College, London, in the university, and Jill, she was going to Loughborough, and there was us two living in a four bedroomed house, so I wrote to the council and I said, would it be possible to, possible to rehouse us in a smaller, either a two bedroom or possibly a three bedroom house, and what I got back was a letter saying that they weren’t selling bungalows and they weren’t selling four bedroom houses, well [laughs] I didn’t want either, but anyway, they started building these bungalows and my pal who was on the council, he said, ‘I know you want to move, why don’t you put in for one of these bungalows because they said, five of them have gone, but there’s six and they’re supposed to be for local people you see,’ he said, ‘five of them have gone, but there’s one that’s still open, why don’t you apply for it?’ and I did and originally they said I wasn’t old enough, but in the end they did sell it, er, did let it to us, and when the right to buy came, I applied to buy it
CB: Because you’d got the continuity
FB: So, we bought it and that’s it
CB: Yes, that’s good
EB: You alright?
CB: We’re having a rest now, thank you
[interview paused]
FB: The most memorable time?
CB: Your most memorable time, memorable time, in the RAF would you say?
FB: [pause] [laughs] Well, I don’t know [pause] I should possibly think was when that aircrew completed their thirty ops, because that was, when I first got on 115 Squadron, if they managed to do seven, they were doing very well, so I think possibly that would be one of the stand out things that, I mean that. I can’t remember anybody else, not while I was there
CB: So, you were looking after two aircraft, one did thirty but you had a series of others, as the other aircraft
FB: Well, yeh, because, in actual fact, if you [background noise] [pause] that would, that was D-Dog, that was one of the, that was the one that Malcolm Buckingham and I worked on
CB: Yeh, that
FB: And that’s the one that did, the crew did their thirty ops on
CB: Yes
FB: Er, and that went on as I say, to do hundred and five, but er, by the time we left, it had done, I think it was sixty ops, and the rest of them of course, it was done after we left
CB: ‘Cos you got another crew, after thirty?
FB: Yeh
CB: After thirty, thank you, brilliant
FB: This one, that’s up there, that
CB: Your pictures on the wall
FN: That’s, that’s C-Charlie
CB: Yes
FB: C-Charlie, er and they were the two planes, you know, on the two pans as I was explaining. I don’t know how many operations that done, but that down there, what was it? Five, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, that done thirty, by that time [pause] [background noise]
CB: [inaudible]
EB: 1947
CB: Now, in the war, when you were in the RAF, did you ever have any serious illness and what was it?
FB: I had, I had pneumonia while I was in, at Witchford, I spent er, what did I, a few weeks in Ely, Ely hospital, and I was excused oversea duties for six months, ‘cos I didn’t go overseas anyway, but I was, and the other thing was that, yes, on January the 25th 1947, I had, I’d had an invitation to go to Bet’s sister Margaret’s wedding
EB: Why she wanted to get married
FB: And, I, and I at that point, I was a senior fitter on our flight and I couldn’t get a weekend pass, which as it turned out was just as well, because on the Saturday afternoon, I was sat on top of an old Wellington, doing a plug change [laughs] and I curled up, there was a young national service chap on the other one, I forget his Christian name, but Gaskins he was, a Londoner, and I said to him, we’ll go, we’ll go down into Lincoln and have a little bit of a celebration, [laughs] being as I can’t go over to this wedding. I slid down the main as I, slid down the main frame and as I straightened up, I had this pain across, and the sergeant he said
CB: Across your stomach
FB: Yeh
CB: Yeh
FB: He said, ‘what’s the matter with you?’ I said, ‘I don’t know, I’ve got the cramp or something, I think?’ he said, ‘go on in the hut and stay there until we knock off and go down to tea,’ which is what I did do, and I said to old erm, Gaskins, I gave him my mug and I said, ‘get me a mug of tea, I’m going to get into bed,’ so I went to my hut and lay, and got into bed and he bought me this mug of tea, and I hadn’t got it down many minutes before I felt sick, and I shot out of there and ran into the ablutions and I heaved up, and I kept on, and went back into there every now and again, and kept repeating, repeating all the time, and he says, ‘well we shan’t be going down for a drink tonight, I’ll go across the sick bay and get the orderly to come and see you,’ and he did do, and the orderly said, ‘oh I’d better get the MO,’ he [laughs] tannoyed for the medical officer and they took me over to the sick bay, and he said, ‘oh you’ve got appendicitis,’ so they took me off to [unclear] hospital, and it was snowing, it started snowing you see, it started snowing , anyway, and I got to [unclear] anyway they operated on me and I’ve got an awful scar here, where I had a stitch abscess, and they sent me home er, on, I had a fortnights sick leave but I had to get into Buckingham every, every day to have this dressing changed, that was a bit of a problem, but er, but also, [laughs] when I was discharged to come home, I got down to Bletchley, station, railway station you see, and the old porter he said, ‘no trains to Buckingham until tomorrow morning,’ I said, ‘I know, I know that,’ I said, I’m going to,’ ‘well,’ he said, I don’t know whether you’ll have any luck because,’ he says, ‘we’ve heard that the road is blocked, somewhere along that road,’ and I said, ‘well, the army,’ of course there’s Bletchley Park, that we didn’t know anything about, but there was Bletchley Park, well, they were running from there to Whaddon and also to Lenborough
CB: What, the army trucks?
FB: Yeh, well, with the signals, you see, you know, and they would always stop and pick you up if you wanted it, you know, wanted a lift, and there was just one went past me, and that was before I got anywhere near to the Whaddon turn, and he went straight past me, and I never saw anything else, [background noise] and I walked and from Bletchley, what is it, to Thornborough, it’s about eight miles, I think it is about eight miles, something like that, but when I got round to Singleborough turn, the straight bit there, I could see this shape in the road and it turned out, it was one of the Coop tankers in there, and of course the, where Bet lived at Greatmore it, you needn’t open the gate, you walked straight over ‘cos it was about five foot deep, you see, it was, anyway I got back in, I got back home, I think it was about two or three o’clock in the morning, something like that, and rattled the door and my Dad came [laughs] ‘cor, he said, what’s happened to you?’ I said, ‘well, I’ve walked from Bletchley,’ and so, got into bed, and as I say, every day I had to go into, to have this dressing changed
EB: He walked four miles
CB: Can’t have done him any good to do that?
EB: No
CB: Because this, 1947 was one of the worst winters
FB: It was
CB: In living memory, wasn’t it?
EB: [inaudible]
FB: Well, there was still snow under the hedges in May
CB: Was it, in Rutland we couldn’t get out of the village for seven days
EB: Oh gosh
CB: Amazing
EB: Where was that?
CB: That was in Empingham
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Sidney Bunce
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABunceFSG161108
PBunceFSG1609
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Sidney Bunce grew up in Buckinghamshire and worked in a butchers and a dairy. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force aged 18 and trained as a flight mechanic engineer. He served with 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford and at RAF Wratting Common with 195 Squadron. He talks about his daily life as a mechanic until his demobilisation in 1947. After the war he drove for United Dairies and the London Brick company.
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
Format
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02:01:44 audio recording
115 Squadron
195 Squadron
demobilisation
fitter engine
flight mechanic
ground crew
ground personnel
medical officer
military living conditions
military service conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
RAF Witchford
RAF Wratting Common
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/474/8381/MClydeSmithD39856-160919-04.2.pdf
f7527bdcc9b68b15110a25b101935993
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clyde-Smith, Denis
Clyde-Smith, D
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains 26 items and concerns Squadron Leader Denis Clyde-Smith Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross, who joined the Royal Air Force and trained as a pilot in 1937. He flew in the anti aircraft cooperation role including remotely piloted Queen Bee aircraft before serving on Battle aircraft on 32 Squadron. He completed operational tours on Wellington with 115 and 218 Squadrons and Wellington and Lancaster with 9 Squadron after which he went to the aircraft and armament experimental establishment at Boscombe Down. The collection consists of two logbooks, aircraft histories of some of the aircraft he flew, photographs of people and aircraft, newspaper articles and gallantry award certificate.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Clyde-Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-19
Identifier
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Clyde-Smith, D
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
The enclosed aircraft histories are all in respect of Tiger Moth aircraft flown by you while undergoing ab-initio training at Sywell. I have commenced the breakdown of their service life as from the date of their impressment into RAF service. However, prior to this, the Tigers in question were operated under a Type ‘A’ Civil Contract which was put into use under the Expansion Scheme of the 1930 era. Then on the 30th of November, 1939, the Air Ministry took over command and RAF roundels were applied to the Tigers, although their civil markings were retained until 1940/41. The Tigers at Sywell were impressed under two Contracts, each issued on the 17th of September, 1940, as follows:
BB693-706 allocated to 6 E.F.T.S. under Contract No. All3015/40 dtd 17/9/40.
BB788-793 allocated to 6 E.F.T.S. under Contract No. All3015/40 (2nd part)
G-ADGF c/n 3345 impressed as BB704
Used at Sywell until 9/8/42, when it was transferred to 10 OUT at Abingdon. Released to 6 MU Brize Norton on the 9th of February, 1943, and later issued to 16 E.F.T.S. Burnaston. Here BB704 was coded ‘7’ later taking the code FIP:A (the four letter codes were issued to Flying Training Command, circa 1945/46). On 31/7/46, BB704 was flown to 9 MU Cosford, and stored until released to 21 E.F.T.S. Booker (near High Wycombe) on 25/3/48. Coded FIW:O, BB704 remained with 21 E.F.T.S. until transfer to 7 F.T.S. Cottesmore on 30/3/50. On June 19th of the same year it was transferred to Station Flight, Feltwell, taking the code ‘W’. However, it’s active use was now rapidly drawing to a close, and on 30/11/50, it was allocated the instructional airframe serial 6805M and delivered to No. 664 ATC Squadron, St. Walter & St. John’s Godalming County School (Surrey Wing).
[page break]
G-ADGG c/n 3346 impressed as BB695
Used at Sywell throughout it’s entire career and was destroyed in a landing accident on 12/5/41.
G-ADGT c/n 3338 impressed as BB697
Continued in use at Sywell until transfer to 26 E.F.T.S. Theale on, 15/7/42. Coded B26, BB697 remained in use at Theale until it was released to store at 12 MU Kirkbridge on 18/7/45. It’s next move was overseas to Germany and 652 Squadron where it served from 17/10/45 to 9/5/46. Following a year spent at No. 151 Aircraft Repair Unit, BB697 was flown to 5 MU Kemble for disposal.
On 27/8/47, BB697 was sold to a civilian operator, and was restored to the Civil Register, and during the early 1960’s it was still in use, registered to Westwick Distributors, Foulsham.
G-ADGV c/n 3340 impressed as BB694
Used by 6 E.F.T.S. until transfer to 29 E.F.T.S. Clyffe Pypard on 15/7/42. Released to 5 MU Kemble on 14/8/46, BB694 was eventually released to the Royal Navy. In RNAS service BB694 served at Stretton, Lossiemouth, and Arbroath before transfer on 17/11/60, to the Britannia Flight at Roborough (Plymouth).
G-ADGW c/n 3341 impressed as BB706
Sevred at Sywell throughout the war years, and was eventually released to store at 10 MU Hullavington. Struck off Charge on 22/5/50, BB706 was disposed of to W.A. Rollason Ltd., who in turn sold it to the D.H. Technical College for ground instruction purposes.
[page break]
G-ADGX c/n 3342 impressed as BB698
Continued in use at Sywell until 9/8/42, when it was flown to RAF Doncaster. Following a brief spell at Taylorcraft, BB698 was released to 5 MU Kemble on 24/6/43. From Kemble BB698 was transfered [sic] to the Royal Navy and delivered to RNAS Hinstock. Attached to 758 Squadron and later RNAS Lee-on-Solent, BB698 went on to serve with B Flight of 798 Squadron, Station Flight Lee-on-Solent, RNAS Evarton, and 727 Squadron RNAS Gosport, in that order before being sold to the Wiltshire School of Flying on 5/2/51. Restored to the Civil Register it was lost in a crash at Thruxton on 11/7/53, when it’s pilot overshot the airfield.
G-ADGY c/n 3343 impressed as BB699
Served for it’s entire life at Sywell, and was lost in a crash during a low flying exercise near Turvey, Bedfordshire, on 25/7/44, when it struck some power cables.
G-ADGZ c/n 3344 impressed as BB700
Used at Sywell until transfer to 7 A.G.S. Stormy Down on 13/8/42. Delivered to Towyn U.A.S. in 1943, and damaged beyond repair taxing [sic] at RAF Towyn, 10/2/44.
[page break]
G-ADIH c/n 3349 impressed as BB789
While in use at 6 E.F.T.S. BB789 took the code ‘89’. Released to 5 MU Kemble on 9/8/42, and then to RAF Speke on 31/10/42. However, by 6/12/42, BB789 had found it’s way back to 5 MU, where it was eventually converted to an instructional airframe. Bearing the serial 3654M it was delivered to 2006 ATC Squadron at Cheltenham on 2/4/43.
During 1946 this Tiger was handed over – without Air Ministry approval – to the Gloucester Flying Club, who promptly spent £425 in restoring G-ADIH to flying condition, and naturally thought the Tiger their property. However, the Air Ministry then stepped in and requested the return of their aircraft – the matter being eventually settled by a payment by the Gloucester Flying Club of £50 to Air Ministry. G-ADIH remained on the Civil Register until 20/11/52, when it was destroyed during a landing accident near Ramsgate.
G-ADII c/n 3350 impressed as BB701
Served with 6 E.F.T.S. throughout the war years, and was released to 9 MU Cosford on 30/8/46. Remaining in storage until 6/4/49, when it was delivered to 9 R.F.S. Doncaster. Destroyed on 22/4/50, when it spun into a sports field near Hansworth.
G-ADIJ c/n 3351 impressed as BB788
Used at Sywell throughout the war, and taken to 9 MU Cosford on 19/7/45, for disposal. Sold to Marshalls of Cambridge in 4/46, and restored to [crossed out]the the[/crossed out]
[page break]
to/ [sic]
the Civil Register as G-ADIJ. In December 1952 G-ADIJ was sold abroad to New Zealand as ZK-BBS and was converted for crop spraying. Used in this role by Northern Aviation Limited, ZK-BBS was destroyed in a crash near Dargaville on, [sic] 15/12/55.
No details at present for G-ADEZ – may have been lost prior to 1939. Further information on the aircraft that you flew will be passed in due course.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Aircraft histories of Tiger Moth aircraft flown by Denis Clyde-Smith
Description
An account of the resource
Histories of twelve Tiger Moth aircraft flown by Denis Clyde Smith while undergoing ab-initio training at Sywell.
Format
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Five page typewritten document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Personal research
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MClydeSmithD39856-160919-04
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Navy
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--West Midlands
England--Wolverhampton
England--Lincolnshire
England--Stamford
England--Norfolk
England--Thetford
England--Cumbria
England--Carlisle
England--Berkshire
England--Theale (West Berkshire)
England--Northamptonshire
England--Northampton
England--Buckinghamshire
England--High Wycombe
England--Surrey
England--Godalming
England--Norwich
England--Wiltshire
Scotland--Moray
Scotland--Angus
Scotland--Arbroath
England--Cheshire
England--Warrington
England--Devon
England--Plymouth
England--Yorkshire
England--Doncaster
England--Hampshire
England--Gosport
England--Bedfordshire
England--Bedford
England--Gloucestershire
England--Cheltenham
England--Cirencester
England--Chippenham (Wiltshire)
England--Shropshire
England--Shrewsbury
Scotland--Ross and Cromarty
Scotland--Invergordon
England--Andover
Wales--Mid Glamorgan
Wales--Bridgend
Wales--Dyfed
Wales--Aberystwyth
England--Kent
England--Ramsgate
Germany
New Zealand
New Zealand--Dargaville
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cambridge
England--London
England--Hounslow
England--Cumberland
England--Middlesex
England--Staffordshire
England--Royal Wootton Bassett
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
1951
1952
1953
1955
1960
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
Flying Training School
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Clyffe Pypard
RAF Cosford
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Feltwell
RAF Kemble
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Sywell
RAF Towyn
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8828/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8828/AStockerEE161013.2.mp3
a6ef8f8aef1748927c2931c8116ebbf3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, I’ll just introduce myself. Make sure this is working OK.
ES: OK?
DK: I, I — you’re sometimes beaten by the technology. So, it’s David Kavanagh inter— interviewing Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker at his home on the 13th of October 2016. I’ll, I’ll just leave that there. If, if I keep looking down, I’m not being rude, I’m just making sure it’s, it’s going.
ES: Er, I’m one of the lucky ones I suppose. If you’ve seen how many trips I’ve done, you’ll know I’m a lucky one.
DK: No, I’ve seen the statistics and they’re terrifying. It’s — they’re covered in your book obviously. What I wanted to ask you was first of all, what were you doing immediately before the war?
ES: I was in the Air Force. I was an apprentice at RAF Halton. I joined the Air Force in 1938, January ‘38, and I — when the war started, they — it should have been a three year apprenticeship but when the war started, they cut it down. They [cough], I did two years and three months I think, so I was a bit short, but they, to make up for the shortcomings, we lost our Wednesday afternoon sports and Thursday afternoon, er, Friday afternoon, um, drill so they stopped the apprenticeship short and gave us accelerated apprenticeship, so I came out. Oh dear, I was still an apprentice — I was an apprentice when the war started because I heard Mr — I was on church parade. We were at church, um, on the 3rd of September and, um, the padre cut his sermon short to say that Chamberlain was talking on, on the BBC and we would go back early so we could actually get in the NAAFI to hear the Chamberlain broadcast. Remember, in those days there wasn’t — radios were expensive but they were all batteries and batteries cost more than you earned in a week, so that’s why we had to use the, the NAAFI to hear the broadcast. Anyway, we heard this broadcast and we’re now at war, which was very good, nice to know [cough] because — as I’d just heard that news, I walked out of the NAAFI to go back to get my irons to go to the cookhouse to get some food and, um, the war had been on for a good ten minutes, maybe a quarter of an hour, and there was a snotty little PTI corporal said, ‘You’re on a charge. You haven’t got your gas mask with you. Don’t you know there’s a war on? You’re supposed to be carrying your gas mask’. I hadn’t — there wasn’t a war on when I left the barrack room and that’s where I left my gas mask [slight laugh], so that was a good start to the war. Anyway, I carried on, er, 1940, in April, March or something, my, er, my apprenticeship was foreshortened and I was passed out as an aircraftman first class. When you’re an apprentice, you can pass out either as an AOC, which there was very few of them (I think in our entry there were two), and an AC1 which was the middle of the road and most of us did, and AC2 which was those who weren’t very bright. And there had — I had a very good posting really, I was posted to Boscombe Down. So, unlike most of the people, when they left their apprenticeship, they went to a squadron and whatever aircraft the squadron had that was the aircraft they worked on but, being lucky, and going to Boscombe I had all sorts of aeroplanes. We had the first prototype Stirling I, I worked on and we had all sorts of funny fighters we were getting. The RAF took over aircraft that the French had ordered but the Germans rather stopped the Americans delivering to them so we took over things like the Mohawk and things and, um, so I, I got into working as a fitter on all sorts of different aeroplanes and then I applied for — I went in to see the flight commander and said, ‘I’d like a pilot’s course’, and he said, ‘No, you can’t do a pilot’s course with AC1. You’ve got to be AOC before you can apply for a pilot’s course’. Anyway, I went back to work and did some — my trade test and became an AOC. I went back into the flight commander and said, ‘I’m an AOC now, can I have a pilot’s course?’ He said, ‘You’ve got to be an AOC for six months at least’. Unfortunately, five months later they made me a corporal, so now I can’t be a pilot because I’m too valuable but then the first of the four engine, as I say all those — I worked on the Stirling, the first of the four engine bombers, and, um, they came with an AMO. They wanted exceptional AOCs, corporals and sergeants and the fitters trades, fitter trades to become flight engineers because before the war, you didn’t have flight engineers because they didn’t have any four engine aircraft, apart from the Stirling, and so I thought — Stirling, Sunderland flying boat, and, um, so I thought well — I didn’t [slight laugh], I didn’t know about this AMO until the flight c—, um, the flight clerk came down — I was working on an aeroplane — with this bit of paper in his hand and said, ‘The flight commander thought you might like to read this’. It was the first, er, call for flight engineers and flight commander had his head in his hand on the right way. He thought that was the [unclear] tell about it so I went back with the flight commander, flight clerk to the flight commander and said, ‘I’d like to be a flight engineer’. Well, I got that, um, sort of got back to barracks, about — it must have been within forty-eight hours, they really were desperate, um, I was called back to the flight commander, given an hour warning, sent off to, off to — where was it in Scotland? Er, oh dear, just north of inverness, north-west from Inverness? I was off on a three week air gunner’s course. I didn’t want to be an air gunner, I wanted to be a flight engineer but, um, I did the three, this three week air gunner’s course, flying in some decrepit old airplanes, and I was then posted to 35 Squadron in Linton as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. I hadn’t done, apart from being a fitter and the three weeks’ air gunner course, I was now a flight engineer. Fortunately, at this, they got the crew but they hadn’t got the airplanes. Point of interest perhaps, my flight commander at that time was a guy called, er, Leonard Cheshire, Flight Lieutenant Leonard Cheshire was my flight commander and —
DK: What were your feelings about Cheshire as a man?
ES: Well as a man [unclear], didn’t have a great understanding of aeroplanes, little or no knowledge of engineering but, um, he had the knack of flying the aeroplane. He could fly it quite well.
DK: Did you, did you fly with him at all?
ES: Only, er, local flying from the thing.
DK: And he was a competent pilot, was he?
ES: He was a — he seemed competent but a little bit slap happy. He talked myself and several other flight engineers, who were new to the squadron, up in the Halifax on a very nasty day in Yorkshire. We sort of took off straight into a cloud and he plugged into the intercom and said, ‘Now I’m running the engines on hot air because of the — to stop them icing up. I’m now going to switch two of them off onto cold air’. Of course, within about three minutes, they’d iced up and the engines had stopped. ‘Now you see what happens when you don’t use hot air’. Yes, I know but we’re flying in cloud at about three thousand feet somewhere over the Yorkshire Moors, no real radio, or any thought. It was a bit stupid. Stating the obvious.
DK: Was he a slightly eccentric man then?
ES: No, not slightly.
DK: No. OK. Completely [laugh].
ES: He was an academic from an academic background. I think he didn’t have a very high regard for engineers or any engineer, and, er, Paddy O’Kane was his flight engineer. He was an Irishman who kept — must have let his temper well under control.
DK: Were you, were you quite pleased to get down then after that flight?
ES: Oh, I wasn’t that — it was interesting. I thought I was too young to be too worried, I just didn’t like it. It knew it wasn’t the right thing to be doing [slight laugh] and, er, I messed about on the squadron there. As I said we were very short of aeroplanes, plenty of crews, there about three flight engineers to every engine, every aeroplane. But I just went back, a lot of us went back to working on the flights as a fitter, ordinary fitter again. And, um, I went there I think Ap— March or April ‘40. It wasn’t until October that I got a crew with an aeroplane, joined a crew and started operating over Germany. I wasn’t very impressed when we did start. We were supposed to be bombing Essen at night, and we — in those days they had very little in the way of range. When they dropped the bombs, I wasn’t that impressed. I said, ‘How –?’ I looked out and I couldn’t see how the hell they knew where they were, and listening to the navigator talking to the pilot, I don’t think he had that much of an idea. It was a very hit and run, well hit and miss, mainly miss, flying in the first few months of the war or the first few months when I started flying. But I, er, what did I do? Oh yes, I know. Early on, with the flight commander, by saying, briefing us for our second trip, ‘We’re going to Nuremberg#. It was rather a long way to Nuremberg from Yorkshire, particularly when we were flying in the early Halifaxes, which did not have as many fuel tanks as the later ones and I, being a sort of awkward bloke, I knew what fuel load we’d got and I had a chat with the navigator, he was another sergeant so I could talk to him, got the air miles and the fuel load and I did some sums. We haven’t got enough money to — enough fuel to get there and back let alone have a reserve and anyway, still being young and cheeky, I said to the flight commander, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip’. To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing’. Well, they didn’t. We came back and I was keeping the throttles closed as much as I could, getting the best air miles out of it. We actually could see the airfield and when we crashed, we were almost within walking distance of the airfield [slight laugh].
DK: You just literally ran out of fuel?
ES: Yeah. Well, we ran out on one — because we were low, I was running, um, each side’s engines on all the tanks in that wing and, um, two engines stopped on one side, so I went down the back and put a cross feed on, um, and so I ran four engines off an empty tank but —
DK: So was anybody hurt in the crash or —
ES: Er, no. When we were sort of getting organised I, I‘d dumped the escape hatches over myself, the pilot and myself, and I was actually on — the skipper had started to bail the crew out. There should have been only two of us left in the aeroplane at that stage but the engines finally ran out of fuel and stopped and, er, we went down, hit the ground on a rather nasty bump, bounced over one hedge and landed in the next field and —
DK: So, there was just the pilot, yourself and one other still on board?
ES: Should have been the pilot and myself but we hit the field, the ground and bounced as I said. I was amidships with the hatch open there, the skipper was in his seat but the hatch over his head was missing, so when things grew to a halt, and the engines started burning, um, we decided to leave so the skipper came up on the wing next to me. I’d got onto the wing, which was the back edge of the wing because the undercarriage was up of course (when you’ve got to crash you don’t have the wheels down) and slid off the wing. The cows in the field didn’t like the intrusion. The skipper and I were looking around to find a quick way through and while we were doing so, a voice from behind said, ‘Wait for me’. It was the, um, the air gunner. He should be the first out. Unfortunately, he’d forgotten to take his parachute down the back. He’d left the parachute amidships by the door and he was actually in the fuselage, walking up the fuselage, to get this parachute pack when we hit the ground. Anyway, he got out alright and, um, we were going, er, out of the field and eventually, er, two ambulances arrived. ‘Are you injured?’ ‘No’. ‘OK, go away. This is for injured’. The other ambulance, ‘You’re not dead? This is for bodies’. So, we were still left there by the aeroplane and eventually the CO came over in his little car. As I say, we were within sight of the airfield when we actually hit the ground and the CO had driven over in his Hillman, and he sort of had a few words with the skipper. He kept well away from me. I told him we was short of fuel and I was bloody right [laugh]. But, um, he must have borne that in mind because, having done four operations with 35, um, I’m called in and told I’m going to a new squadron, where they‘re just going to get Halifaxes to instruct the flight engineers and pilots on the Halifax. I’d done four operations and there I am, I’m an instructor on 102 Squadron and obviously the CO at that time was a squadron leader, um, he’d got the message I might know what I’m talking about and there I was, an instructor. Much later on in the war he was the fli— squadron commander of the Pathfinder Squadron, I was the engineer leader and when he wanted to fly, guess who he took as his flight engineer? But, um, anyway I went to this 102 Squadron, had two qualified flying instructors to teach the pilots and things, and I had to explain the workings of the Halifax and things to the pi— new pilots and check up on the en— blokes that were posted in as engineers. And so there I was, twenty years old, telling these people. I said, um, the flight, flight commander who was the flying instructor, like me was an apprentice from Halton, trouble is he was about six years before me [laugh]. However, he thought, he must have thought I was making a good job of it, telling these people, because he suddenly called me into his office. He said, ’What do you think about taking a commission?’ A twenty-year-old sergeant. ‘Ay?’ I said, ‘Well you, you did it. What do you think?’ And he said, ’I think you should’. So, I suddenly found myself twenty years old, commissioned and — being commissioned anyway. I wasn’t actually commissioned at that time. I was put in for it. Later, on the Pathfinders, were starting and they were asking for crews and they asked for volunteers from other squadrons. There was a, a couple of Canadians, a pilot and navigator flew together, and they thought it would be a good idea to go to Pathfinders. Their flight engineer lived locally to New York so he wasn’t keen at all so, er, Hank, the skipper that was, he came to me and said, ‘We want a flight engineer. What do you think?’ I said, ‘OK. Put me down. I’ll go with you’, so I was posted to Pathfinders on 35 Squadron and, um, I was still a sergeant. And suddenly one day, the adjutant called, er, sent for me and I go to the adjutant’s office. The adjutant was sort of absolutely horrified, ‘You’ve been commissioned’, so I was the first flight engineer, one of the first flight — batch of flight engineers to be commissioned. Mind you, I did have to go for an interview at the Air Ministry first. It was quite an interesting one because at — down at Pathfinders at Graveley, which has its own station down the road to get straight into London, about an hour, three quarters of an hour ride to London so I knew, um, when I was told about this interview at the Air Ministry, I was flying that night. So went, you know, did my trip, came back, changed, had a shower, changed into my best blue, down the station and on the train up to Air Ministry for this bloody interview. I didn’t really know what it was all about but, er, they want to see me they can see me. So, I staggered into this interview thing and lots of sen— brass there, mainly group captains or wing commanders but there wasn’t a pilot or anything amongst them. They were all engineers you see, and, um, they didn’t know really know that much about it, they’d got to interview me and that was it. I sort of staggered in and I went asleep in the waiting room outside and they woke me up to go in, and I was sort of wiping the sleeping dust from my eyes as I went in for the interview. And one of these officious men obviously, um, thought I was on, been on the booze up in London that night, ‘Where were you last night?’ I gave them the name of the target [laugh]. Oh dear, atmosphere changed [laugh]. They gave me the wrong answer to the right question and, um, after that the interview went quite well. I ended up them telling them more about what went on than they knew about. Well, so that’s OK, so I’m told I’m commissioned, I go down to London with a bit of — coupons and some money and buy myself a uniform as a pilot officer. I go back to the office, back to the squadron and I get called in again, ‘We haven’t got a, what is it? An establishment for pilot officer flight engineer, only a flight lieutenant. You’re an acting flight lieutenant’. So I went, in about a matter of weeks, I went from a scruffy sergeant to a blown-up flight lieutenant [laugh] and I’ve been all sorts of flight lieutenant ever since. That was pilot officer acting flight lieutenant, flying officer acting flight lieutenant, war [unclear] flight lieutenant, end of the war flying officer acting flight lieutenant, er, proper flight lieutenant. There you go. I’ve been promoted to flight lieutenant so bloody often that I don’t know — but, um, that’s how it goes.
DK: So, so once you’re in the Pathfinder Squadron then, what was your — what did you do there? What were the Pathfinders doing?
ES: Well, it’s, um, the first thing they said was if you go into Pathfinders instead of doing thirty operations and being rested, you’ll do sixty. That didn’t last long. They cut those down to forty-five and —
DK: How did you fell about that, having to do two tours?
ES: Not too worried. I was young and stupid. Anyway, um, having being made a flight lieutenant, I was in charge of all the flight engineers, and when my crew finished their forty-seven, forty-five, they were posted away and I stayed on as flight engineer leader, and then suddenly somebody, something clicked, ‘Oh he shouldn’t be here, he’s done it’. And, um, I did, I did a couple more afterwards with other crews that hadn’t got an engineer at the time. And, um, shows you how stupid I was, I thought I’ve never, never tried — I’d like to try a trip as, um, a gunner so I volunteered to go on a trip as a mid-upper gunner on a flight just for the heck of it and, er, they suddenly realised I shouldn’t be there and I got posted straight away to a Training — a Pathfinder Training Unit. I arrived there just as 7 Squadron had taken a beating. They’d lost a squadron commander, two flight commanders and all the leaders. They had a hell of a time and so they suddenly they needed some experienced people in the Squadron, so they came to NTU to get them and, er, so they gathered — drew a few of us together and posted us to 7 Squadron. The only thing is, I hadn’t been there very long so before I knew where I was, I was back on op— on an operational squadron, on 7 Squadron, but they’d got Lancasters and I didn’t know a bloody thing about the Lancaster. The Halifax — I’d been on propeller courses, engine courses, er, aircraft course, airplane courses, everything and they had the, the Linc— the Lincolns. The Lancaster, I didn’t know anything about really apart from they had four Merlins and they were much the same as the Merlins in the, er, Halifax except they were made in America and had a better, er, better, um, type of — better design cylinder block, didn’t get internal leaks, and, um, I thought, ‘Well I must find out something about this aeroplane’. And I was still sort of feeling my way trying to find some books and things and they suddenly said, ‘You’re on ops tonight. Oh, and you’re a bomb aimer as well’. Because on Pathfinders, on Lancs, they used their flight engineer as a bomb aimer. Well, I don’t know a thing about bomb aiming and so they gave me a quick run through on the ground on how to set the bomb sight up and they said, ‘You better try it. Have a go’. They put, they put eight practice bombs on one of the Lancs then go off to a bombing raid, do my first bombing, eight, eight training ship. Trouble is, I dropped one and then the thing didn’t turn out right, the rest wouldn’t drop, so I had dropped one practice bomb. I was a bomb aimer with one practice and I’m on ops. I dropped four — about 80,000 tons of bombs, bombs that night, just practising [laugh] and that’s how life goes on.
DK: So as, as a flight engineer then, what did you prefer the Halifax or the Lancaster, once you got to know the Lancaster?
ES: If I was going to crash, I’d rather do it in a Lanc, in a Halifax. If I was going to go to war and not get shot at, I’d go in a Lanc. The Lanc was a much less sturdy aeroplane and it had the most diabolical position to bail out from. The, the door is right in front of the tail plane. On the Halifax the escape hatch in the fuselage is on the bottom corner of the fuselage and you dive out there, and the tail plane is way over. The only thing you’ve got to worry about is hitting the tail wheel. But, um, so if I had to bail out, I’d rather bail out of a Halifax and, um, I think I’d rather crash in a Halifax. It’s a much sturdier aeroplane, much — old fashioned pre-war des— design. The Lanc was a, a lash-up, um, it would never, it would never have flown, been allowed before the war because, um, aeroplanes had to fit in a hundred foot hangar. Well, the Manchester, which was the forerunner of the Lanc would go in a Halifax, in a hundred foot hangar, but when they took the Eag— Rolls Royce Eagles out and put a Merlin there, and then a bit of wing with another Merlin, that put an extra bit of wing on and the thing wouldn’t go in the hangar. So, it would, it would never have been allowed pre-war. But it, it gave an extra form of — the later Hali 3, they did have extended wing tips, they extended the wing on the Hali 3s which was a good solid aeroplane. I would like to have seen a Hali 3 with four Merlins, um, I think it would probably have been as good as the Lanc, but it didn’t —because it was built like — I was going to say a brick shit house [laugh]. As it was very well built, it didn’t have the same bomb carrying cap— capabilities and it didn’t have a bomb door, a bomb bay. The Lanc had this enormous long bomb bay which the Americans, the Americans saw that bomb bay and said, ‘Good God’, and so, um, you could you could carry a eight thousand pounder in a Halifax, which was two fours joined together, but it wouldn’t take any of the big things and it was very narrow and it had these extra bomb, er, bomb bays in the inner wing too. It wasn’t as well designed as the Lanc was. The Lanc wasn’t designed that way. It was a bit like Topsy. That was the way it grew. Yeah, I tried them both.
DK: As a flight engineer though, and purely as your role as a flight engineer, you preferred the Lancaster?
ES: Well on the Halifax, you had a much better instrument panel, you could see what’s going on, but you had a very complex fuel system. You started out with four tanks on the Hali 1s, early Hali 1As, that soon went to —from four tanks to — it went up again, and I think we ended up with 7 or 8 tanks in each wing and all little bits where they squeezed a bit in, um, which gave a very complex fuel system. To keep the CG right you had to keep messing about. I say the nose tank, number 2, which was on the leading edge of the wing, er, you couldn’t use that for landing or take off because of the change, sudden changes of altitude. So, the Halifax, you had — needed an engineer or somebody who knew what they were doing to manage the fuel system. The Lancs, with four bloody great tanks, you didn’t. Basically, you didn’t need a flight engineer on a Halifax, it was just another pair of hands, another pair of eyes and somebody else to keep an eye on the gauges —
DK: On the Lancaster, on the Lancaster, you didn’t need a flight engineer?
ES: No, but you did need somebody in the right hand seat.
DK: Right. OK. Yeah.
ES: And the flight engineer was cheaper than a, a co-pilot, a pilot, that’s really what it was, they were a cheap pilot substitute in a way.
DK: On the Lancaster so you didn’t need, really need a flight engineer on the Lancaster?
ES: Not as an engineer. I’ll tell you, the fuel cogs were two little handles but they had very big tanks. The Lanc, the Lanc, the original design of the Lanc was based on the premise that you would have sealed wings and there’d be a filler cap in the wing and you filled the wing up. But that meant that — that was fine until they said all tanks have got to be self-sealing, and you can’t put self-sealing on the outside of the tanks and that’s why they ended up putting little tanks in. But um, it’s a matter of history there. The Lanc arrived just at the right time. The Halifax was before its time and was outdated as soon as it arrived really but it was better than a Stirling.
DK: Yes. Did you fly ever on the Stirling or —
ES: Yes, I had, down at Boscombe.
DK: Not operationally though?
ES: No.
DK: No, no. So can you say a little about what the Pathfinders actually did and their, their role that was different to —
ES: Oh, quite different, um, initially it was a matter of, er, developing the technique. Don Bennett developed the tech— developed the, or developed the technique, I say, initially on Pathfinders, it was a matter — we had people going at H – 4 and dropping flares like mad and then other people following on trying to find the target. Later on, it got much more sophisticated. You still had the supporters and the important people in the H – 4. Supporters were supplied by the squadrons from the new boys in Pathfinders, this was in the opening stages. The crew in Pathfinders, first thing flying as a supporter, going in as H – 4 and, um, then later on getting promoted to being a flare dropper, still going in early, er, usually several rows of flare droppers, H – 4 and H – 2, and then you had the king-pins dropping the target markers, er, target indicators, from — with the light of the flares of the others and then once the master had put, um, put his marker on the target the supporters came along to keep it going. Basically, that’s all there was to it really, but it got a bit more sophisticated.
DK: Did you actually meet Don Bennett at this time?
ES: Oh yes. I knew, I met him.
DK: What did you think of, of Don Bennett?
ES: I — he didn’t need any crew. He knew it all. No, I was a great admirer of Don Bennett.
DK: You actually flew with him, did you?
ES: Yes, I did some — the first time we had a Hali 3 deli— delivered to, um, Graveley as a possible aircraft for Pathfinder Group because at that, at that stage we had Hali 2s, Lancs, Wellingtons, er, all in different squadrons. And Don wanted — was trying to get all his aircraft —
DK: Standardised —
ES: Same aircraft right through the Group, um, but anyway a Hali 3 had been sent to Bos— to Graveley for him to have a try. Well, he’d flown the Hali 2s and 1s, he was an experienced Halifax pilot but there was this Hali 3 he had been sent to try, so just he and I got into the aeroplane, nobody else, and he tried to fly the Hali 3. Well compared to the Hali 1s and 2s with four Merlins, four Hercules were a whole different proposition and one of the flight engineers’ job is following the pilot, as he opens the throttle, keep your hands behind so as if he moves his hands, the throttles won’t go back. And unfortunately, we were on the end of the runway, two of us in the aeroplane, not big fuel, no great fuel load, and he’s sort of half way up and I was following, and suddenly we were airborne. Now that was quite a different experience. Anyway completely opened the throttles, I held them and locked them open or locked them and that was his first experience of the Hali 3 and mine [laugh] but only the two of us in there anyway.
DK: But presumably, he then made the decision not the Hali 3, but go for the Lancaster then, did he?
ES: He flew the Hali 3 and he flew the Lanc.
DK: And he decided on the Lancaster then.
ES: Yeah, he was also — there was some talk of a teed-up Wellington with a pressure cabin.
DK: Oh right.
ES: It was only — I don’t think we even had one with us, I knew it existed and I’d seen pictures of it. They actually put a pressure cabin inside, inside the Wellington. It was quite a high-altitude aeroplane. I think they used it for high altitude research afterwards. Yes, so Don knew what he was doing and wasn’t wor— never worried, it was fine with him. A man than can take a tuner off, the control locks on, flies around Hamburg and land the bloody thing with the stick stuck.
DK: That’s what he did? The control lock was still on?
ES: Yeah.
DK: And he flew to Hamburg and back?
ES: No, he flew, took off from Hamburg. He should have been going to Berlin but he turned round, went round the airfield, and got it back down on the ground again, took off the control locks and flew to berlin on the Berlin shuttle.
DK: On the Berlin airlift.
ES: Yeah.
DK: On the Berlin airlift, yeah.
ES: Yeah. Oh, he knew what he was doing.
DK: So how many operations did you actually fly altogether then?
ES: Hundred and eight. Forty-seven on Wellingtons, on Halifaxes and sixty-one on Lancs. I know they say it isn’t allowed, you shouldn’t last that long. I hadn’t read the statistics [laugh].
DK: Well, if you didn’t know the statistics.
ES: It only happened by chance really. I did my forty-seven on Halifaxes and I was sent to NTU. 7 Squadron had a chop and NTU were asked to supply replacements. I was there, I was one of the replacements. They wanted a replacement, you know, they’d lost a lot of their top end. They wanted experienced people and I — so I was off operations for a few weeks and I was back on the Lancs, um, once I’d got through the — with first with 7 and then, um, 582 was formed, one flight from 7 Squadron and one flight from 156. I went there and, um, I just soldiered on. I was sort of a decoration round the place, I think I was a bit of a show piece. You know, a funny thing, when I did my hundredth operation, I was keeping quiet, I wasn’t making any fuss about it. But I used to help, deal with the crew list for the CO, and there was a young lad coming through as a skipper. He was a bit of a nervous type, he was worried because he was going to do his thirteenth trip. I thought, what the hell, I put myself down as his flight engineer. He came back and, um, we landed back at base and he said, ‘Ah that’s good, I’ve made my — done my thirteenth’, I said, ‘Well done. I’ve done my hundredth’ [laugh].
DK: And that was the first he knew?
ES: That was the first he knew. Nobody had reached three figures before. We’d lost two people at ninety-eight. We never lost one at ninety-nine but we did lose two at ninety-eight.
DK: Was there any recognition for the hundredth operation at all from the squadron or —
ES: Not from the squadron but I think there’s mention, um, in my DSO. I went over my hundredth anyway but, um, that’s really all there was. I got my DSO, I think I was the only flight engineer I think that did.
DK: How do you feel now looking back on that period [unclear] operations?
ES: I was lucky. I don’t know. It was my job. I was in the Air Force for a job and it was part of the job, sort of.
DK: And now if we move to the post war period. I was reading that you went to South America?
ES: Oh, I did the South American trip with Harris, yes.
DK: What was, what was Harris like?
ES: Well, he knew who I was when we got there [laugh]. But it was quite a crazy thing, we didn’t see much of him really. He was the top brass and we were the, we were the tail end. Funny thing is, when we first flew over, we went down to Gambia, went across to Recife, just by the mouth of the Amazon and, um, we had — Harris himself and his, his PA had been in America with the RAF during the war and they had the correct drill for America. They had long — they were in khaki but they had long trousers. We were issued with khaki appropriate to, er, West Africa but we had shorts. Oh dear, when we landed in Brazil, what a kerfuffle, ‘[unclear] get those men back in the aeroplane out of sight’. Anyway, we were pu— pushed back in the aeroplane and, um, the top brass, me, Harris and his little entourage and they were marched off to a decent hotel, and somebody came out to us, ‘Put your trousers on’, and we were allowed to go and get a meal as well [laugh]. It was ridiculous. We didn’t know what was going on.
DK: So, it, so it was three Lancasters you took to Brazil then?
ES: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And how did they perform going across the —
ES: Oh, no problems there. Um, the fuel was — you had to watch the fuel. We weren’t over dressed for it. We didn’t have long range tanks or anything which are available, were avail— or eventually became available for the Lancs, but there was no problem.
DK: So, what was the purpose of the visit then? Was it just an invite for Harris by the Brazilians?.
ES: Brazil was our allies. They had a division fighting in Italy and we were there. We —the division for me — because Brazil did not declare war on Japan, er, mainly because they had too large a Japanese population. The only thing that the Brazilians did about the Japanese is they all had to live at least a hundred kilometres from the coast. That was the Brazilian, um, result of Japan entering the war, um, and their Army only fought in Europe with the American 5th Army and they came back. We were there when they came back. We were flying over them as they went down the main street in Rio, we were over— overhead.
DK: Oh, I see, so it was a kind of com— celebration for the return of their army, in effect?
ES: Er, you mentioned the three Lancs. Well, when we turned round to come back, one of them had engine trouble. It wasn’t my aircraft but of the flight engineers, I was the only one that could change an engine or knew anything about it so I ended up staying behind waiting for the new engine. And the Brazilians were very good, they gave us a lot of coffee beans and they were tied up in the bomb bay and the aeroplane was flown by the 617 Squadron crew, and 617 Squadron took off from the airport at Brazil, at, er, Rio, which is six hours from the, er, air— from the promenade. Um, being 617 Squadron, they didn’t have bomb bays. They weren’t used to bomb, bomb doors so they took off with the bomb doors open (because you always park with the bomb doors open), so they took off with them open and some of us left behind saw them turn out over the harbour and watched our coffee beans descend into the harbour.
DK: Oh no.
ES: One, er, bag didn’t detach and when we got back instead of getting a whole bag of coffee beans which were of course rationed around, almost unavailable in England, we had a two-pound bag of them. But anyway, yeah.
DK: So, after that, is this when you then went for pilot training?
ES: Not immediately, no. I went — I did an engineering officers course, um, I was already, although I was a fitter and a qualified fitter, um, I went on to — down to St Athan, I think for four months, an accelerated engineering officer’s course, filling in the gaps between what I’d been through, what I knew as an apprentice, what I knew as a flight engineer, just filling in the gaps. I come out as a fully trained flight engineering officer which was quite useful in the end. But I went back to the Squadron and I was then on 20, on 24 Squadron, the VIP Squadron, flying Lancastrians, er, VIPs around the place. I managed to save the life of myself, Sir Robert Watson Watts and Ralph Cochrane all in one go. I — if they’d gone down and I’d been with them. We had Lancasters, Lancastrians sorry, but they had a belly tank to increase the range, because the Lanc couldn’t fly the Atlantic, so the Lancastrian couldn’t unless they put long range tanks in the bomb bay. Since it was a [unclear] thing, it wasn’t a proper — it wasn’t a well thought out plan. The filling was, um, on the side of the bomb bay with the — the flight engineer had an extension which you undid a hatch on the bomb bay, took the cap off the, er, tank, put this extension on and then you could fill the fuel up, fill the long range tank up. Good idea. Well, on going to America we were carrying two flight engineers, so I was filling the port wing and the other guy was filling the starboard wing, and I filled my wing and I look down and this bloke who was filing the bomb bay, belly tank seemed to be having a lot of trouble, seemed to be stopping and starting and whatever. So, I went down to see what, you know, the problem was. We were out in the Azores and I don’t speak Portuguese so I was chattering away, took the thing out. No wonder he was having trouble. What was he putting in the tank? Engine oil.
DK: Oh dear.
ES: I had a quick thought, er, I could see us, another one in the Bermuda Triangle. We’d have been somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle when I switched over to that tank. We wouldn’t have gone much further. Anyway, I got him out of the way, and I go the crew and anyone standing around. I got a pan out from the side of the airfield and pushed the thing back and got the wheel, the bit, the tail wheel and a bit more of the fuselage over the grass, got my tool box out [slight laugh], undid the, this false bomb door that we had, it was only two sheets of metal, opened that up. I could then get to the Pulsometer pump, which was used to transfer the, er, petrol as it should have been to the wing. But fortunately, it wasn’t switched on I don’t think. I quickly disconnected it actually in case anybody did switch it on and, um, took the Pulsometer pump off and, er, of course all the oil flowed out, straight onto the grass, er, put the thing back on again, got the fella with the petrol bowser and put a couple of hundred gallons in the tank. I’m not paying [laugh].
DK: It makes you wonder if that happened in the past if —
ES: Oh yes. I think that’s what happened with MacMillan in the Star Tiger. A very similar installation on the, on the Tudor. The Tudor had the tank in the same position.
DK: Because several went missing, didn’t they?
ES: Yeah, well if you put oil in the bloody thing. The Portuguese people, they come out with the tanker and you can’t see what’s in the tanker. But, um, anyway I did, er, swirled this thing out, pumped this fuel, fuel oil mixture out with the Pulsometer pump, got a bucket with, um, pure petrol in, stripped the Pulsometer pump out down to its essential bits, washed out the inside, swirled it round and, um, pumped some, put some more petrol in the tank, swirled it round and hoped for the best, put the Pulsometer pump on and we got to Washington DC on that fuel. Otherwise, there’d be no me, no Sir Robert Watson Watt, no Sir Ralph Cochrane or anybody but, um, that’s what flight engineers are for, aren’t they?
DK: Exactly. I guess they, they never knew. Never knew how close to disaster they came.
ES: No, they were too busy scoffing. We didn’t get a meal, the other engineers and I didn’t get anything to eat at all until the other — Washington, actually Indianapolis. We didn’t stop long in Washington, then we went on to Indianapolis. It’s all a story.
DK: So, it was then soon after that you took the pilot training then, was it?
ES: Yes, ‘47 or, ‘47 I think I took the pilot training.
DK: And ended up on the Neptunes?
ES: No, I ended up on Lancasters.
DK: Oh right. OK.
ES: At first. As soon as I took the pilots course, I thought, ‘What’s going to happen now?’ Well, I’d been on Transport Command, been on Bomber Command. Oh, put him on Coastal Command. And what do they give him to fly? A Lancaster. And, um, I was flight commander on 217 Squadron and I was off to the States [slight laugh].
DK: And so how did it feel now you were a pilot of a Lancaster, after so many operations as a flight engineer?
ES: It seemed quite natural, though I must admit, when I first went as a pilot for the conversion course, as a pilot up to Kinloss, I had the first instruction for pilot. I’ll teach him all about the Lanc. He can teach me all about the Lanc [laugh], He knew who I was and I knew who he was [laugh].
DK: He couldn’t teach you much then?
ES: Eh?
DK: He couldn’t teach you much?
ES: Well, he didn’t bother. I sat there and listened to it all. You got to show willing and, er, that’s how it went
DK: So, once you converted to the Neptunes then, what were they like?
ES: A dream, a dream. You could do anything with them. They had these spoilers in the wing. When you put the spoilers on, when you put thing on, it went vroom. Of course, when we first got the Neptunes, all the top people wanted to fly them so we had a, a group of MPs come up to Kinloss to see us and find out all about these new aeroplanes. We didn’t, they were not our aeroplanes, the Neptunes, the RAF never owned any Neptunes. They were only on loan waiting, because the Sund— the Shackletons were late on delivery and these were taken as, in a sort of stop gap until we got — Avro got their finger out, started producing Shackletons. I quite enjoyed flying the Neptune. Nicest aeroplane I’d ever flown.
DK: Did you get to fly the Shackleton then, eventually?
ES: No. It was just a heavy Lancaster. The Neptune was a whole different ball game, you could do things with that.
DK: Do you think the Nim— Shack— Neptune should have been used instead of the Shackleton then?
ES: It was — the Neptunes were loaned, loan to us until we could get enough Shackletons delivered. They were only on loan. They went back to the States and went on loan to somebody else no doubt. Other — the Aussies they picked up two Shackletons, two Neptunes at the same time. They weren’t bare backed robbers but they bought theirs.
DK: Do you think we should have bought the Neptune then?
ES: I think they were better. I think it would have been a better deal than the Shackleton ever was. To give you an example, er, Churchill was coming back from America on one of the Queens, and the idea was that the RAF should go out to the mid-Atlantic and beyond to welcome him, and this was the plan and I was sitting in the mess having breakfast and saw the Shackleton taking off to meet Winny. Then I finished my breakfast, went down to flight, did my briefing, got into the aeroplane, flew off and once we got the Queen on radar I, we homed in over the Queen and then I looked on the radar and, oh yes, there’s a Shackleton coming in. We’d guide him in to —
DK: Because they were so much slower.
ES: Slower? They didn’t — they only had one speed. You see, we used to transit at ten thousand feet which gives you a much better air speed, but they did everything at about two thousand, the Shackleton, which gives us about a hundred miles an hour advantage at ten thousand. And, um, so anyway we guided them and we had a fly round the Queen and, um, Churchill could see them and then it was time for them to go. So, they went off there. We watched them go and a little bit later, we flew off and I was back in the mess when the Shackletons landed [laugh]. That’s the difference you see. They were no faster on attack really. I was going to tell you, when we first got the Neptune, a group MPs came up to have a look at it. My squadron commander, he was a hard drinking man, so we, after they arrived so I left, er, I had a dinner with them, and spoke to them and that and left the squadron commander to take care of them. He was quite happy drinking all night. Oh, that car’s — the car’s just driven two houses up and stopped there. Never mind, it’s not in your way. But anyway, they had there thing in the mess and the next morning they were going for a flight. Well, one of the things the Neptune could do which the Shackleton never got round to doing, was rocket attacks, [unclear] sixteen rockets, sort of equivalent of two, um, salvos from a cruiser and for a rocket attack on an aircraft, ship or submarine, your flying indicators about twelve hundred feet, and you put the nose down to about seventy degrees, take aim, fire the rockets. They were very, very accurate too. I say, to practice we had old wrecks of cars out on the range. You expect to hit a car with a rocket. It’s not that big a target but you hit a car with a rocket, a ship will be a big problem because of course the salvos, that car doesn’t fire back at you, but, um, we’d got two 20 mm cannons and a nose sight and they can do some damage. Anyway, so I take these MPs up and they’d had a good night out the night before [laugh], and I was flying at a thousand feet and we’re going into attack, vroom, MPs on the ceiling [laugh] and we go in and attack, fire the rocket, horrible. You got to have fun, you got to have your fun somehow.
DK: Were the MPs impressed by that?
ES: I don’t know [laugh]. They were quite quiet when we came back [laugh].
DK: I can imagine.
ES: Not used to big aeroplanes. They liked fighters. But I had fun.
DK: So, when did you actually leave the RAF then? What year would that have been?
ES: Oh dear. Oh, I just managed to — it was Army, aft— after, um, flight commander at 617. I spent some time doing my stint as a ground eng— ground fitter, a ground officer. I was quite lucky. I got rather a cushy number for my two years. I was posted out to Germany as adjutant with an AOP Squadron with Austers, and, um, it was when I finished my, just finishing my two years out there when the Army MO called me in for the annual medical, and he said, ‘You’re too deaf to fly’, And that was it. Oh yes, a bloody Army bloke, a Pongo got me out. Actually, he didn’t get me out, he said, ‘You’re unfit to fly’. The Air Force said, ‘You can stay in in your current rank until you reach retirement age’. Well, I was thirty-five, I didn’t want to do another twenty bloody years doing bugger all, nothing interesting, so I elected to take an early retirement. Been drawing a pension ever since. I’ve been drawing my RAF pension, this is the first month of my sixty-first year of drawing a pension.
DK: Excellent. Well, I think on that note we’ll —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ted Stocker. Three
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStockerEE161013, PStockerEE1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:11:31 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ted joined the air force in January 1938 as an apprentice at RAF Halton. This was accelerated because of the war, and he was posted to RAF Boscombe Down.
Although he wanted to be a pilot, Ted’s skills were needed as a flight engineer. He was posted to 35 Squadron at Linton-on-Ouse in 1940 where he encountered Flight Lieutenant Leonard Cheshire. Later that year, Ted found a crew and aircraft and started operations over Germany. After only four operations, he went to instruct pilots and flight engineers on Halifaxes at 102 Squadron.
Ted was posted to Pathfinders 35 Squadron and was the first flight engineer to be commissioned. After 47 operations, he volunteered and was sent for training as a mid-upper gunner to a Pathfinder Training Unit and 7 Squadron, who needed experienced people. He had to learn about Lancasters, which he compares in some detail to Halifaxes.
Ted outlines the work of the Pathfinders and how the system became more sophisticated. He encountered Donald Bennett and once flew with him, as well as flying with Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris to Brazil.
Ted flew 108 operations (47 on Halifaxes and 61 on Lancasters). He was awarded a Distinguished Service Order.
Ted did an engineering officers’ course at RAF St Athan, followed by 24 Squadron, a VIP transport squadron, flying Lancastrians.
After pilot training in 1947, Ted was flight commander on 217 squadron. He flew Neptunes, which he compares favourably to Shackletons. Ted was then posted to Germany for two years as adjutant with an Air Observation Post squadron and flew Austers. He left the RAF because of impaired hearing.
Temporal Coverage
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1938
1940
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
582 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
Distinguished Service Order
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Lancaster
Lancastrian
military service conditions
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Halton
RAF Linton on Ouse
Shackleton
Stirling
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/593/8862/PKempMWD1603.2.jpg
915316febaf8fa093e9e3d6664bf2e5a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/593/8862/AKempM160425.1.mp3
98c9f86b0b70f1dafa1862ce137aa0b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kemp, Maurice
Maurice William Denton Kemp
M W D Kemp
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Kemp, M
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Maurice Kemp (1925 - 2016, 2221885 Royal Air Force), a list of operations and photographs. He served as a mid upper gunner on Lancaster with 115 Squadron in 1945. He carried out 9 operations and then took part in operations Manna and Exodus.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by aurice Kemp and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: This is Gary Rushbrooke for the Bomber Command Association, I’m with Flight Sergeant Maurice Kemp at his home near Boston in Lincolnshire, 25th April 2016. And Maurice could you just tell me a little bit about yourself, when you were born, where you born?
MK: Yeah I was born at West Keal near West Keal Church up up the top of the road there.
GR: Oh so local.
MK: And I was there till I was about six months old, and then we moved down to a well not really a smallholding but we’d a few acres of land, kept poultry, had a couple of milk cows to make butter, and that’s where I lived until I was about thirteen.
GR: So was mum and dad, dad was a farmer?
MK: Well he was a farm labourer, a farm labourer really but he did have a few acres of land.
GR: Oh right.
MK: You know which he did part time little bit on the side like as well as he went to work during the day and did that at night.
GR: Yes.
MK: I think we’d about eleven acres of grass and two acres of what you would call arable.
GR: Yes. Brothers and sisters?
MK: I had, I had a half-brother, he was seven years older than me, he was illegitimate, my mother had him when she was in the First World War, she was in London in service during the First World War and he was born in 1918. And I stopped there moved to New Leake in 1938, we’ve generally I worked on the land a little bit, I worked on Coningsby Aerodrome for quite a long time in the building process.
GR: So you helped to build?
MK: I helped to build Coningsby Aerodrome.
GR: The aerodrome.
MK: And I was there until such time as it was virtually completed. By that time I was getting on to be seventeen years and I got a driving licence and I started lorry driving the day I was seventeen. I did that for.
GR: Was that working for a local company?
MK: Yeah for a small, well a chap who had three lorries.
GR: Yes.
MK: And I worked for him until such time as I went in the Air Force, and I was in the Air Force a bit less than four years I think.
GR: Did you, obviously you volunteered?
MK: Yeah, yeah, because I was volunteered and I was deferred until my age because going in as a gunner it was
GR: ‘Cos most chaps.
MK: You weren’t allowed to do.
GR: You’d be called up at eighteen?
MK: Eighteen.
GR: And you were allowed to volunteer at seventeen?
MK: Yeah. I was called up at eighteen and a half because you wasn’t allowed to fly on operate operations under nineteen.
GR: Right.
MK: And it was a six month course from starting in the Air Force to get in there and that’s what I did.
GR: Was that always the case then during the war or was it something that came in later on?
MK: I don’t know it was always the case but it was the case in mine. I went to a an Aircrew Reception Centre at at Edgbaston in Birmingham on a three day course, and I was then deferred you know. I I passed as a wireless operator gunner you know for that for that category and I finished up as a gunner. And er I was, I joined up on the 17th January 1944, and I was a year training I went to, I started off at in Lord’s Cricket Ground that’s where I joined up.
GR: Right.
MK: And I went from there to Bridgnorth in Shropshire and that was you know sort of what do you call it square bashing and messing about you know general things. And I moved from there to Walney Island that’s at at Barrow in Furness.
GR: Yes.
MK: And I did an air gunnery course there. From there I went to Silverstone, I went on Wellingtons at Silverstone and that’s where we was crewed up.
GR: That’s yeah, so that would have been five of you on the Wellington wouldn’t it?
MK: Yeah, yeah. There was, no six.
GR: Six was there?
MK: There was two gunners.
GR: Two gunners?
MK: Although there weren’t a mid-upper gunner, there was two gunners ‘cos we was we was getting prepared for Lancasters really, well we was and I was there at, for I don’t a few months, and we was moved out to a new satellite aerodrome just up the road from Silverstone.
GR: You know when you actually joined up was it to be an air gunner or did you have any aspirations of?
MK: Well, when I was I volunteered for aircrew.
GR: Yeah.
MK: That’s what you could do and it it comes down to education.
GR: Right.
MK: My education wasn’t pilot navigator class so I was drafted in to wireless operator/air gunner and I finished up being put in the air gunner category, and you know we did these, it was three days at this test in Birmingham and they after you been and done all the courses they channelled you into what they wanted you to be and I was to an air gunner. And then we was told we wouldn’t be called up until we were eighteen and a half which I was eighteen and a half on the 16th January, and I was called up on the 17th. And then progressed through there and by the time I got passed out it was early ’45 when I got on squadron.
GR: Right. Did you end up going to Heavy Conversion Unit?
MK: Oh yes.
GR: Yes. Was it Lancaster Finishing School?
MK: Well the first, the first Heavy Conversion Unit I went to was at Stradishall and it was on Stirlings, now that was a bloody education never you mind. And it was the middle of us gunners privilege to wind the undercarriage up and down there’d no hydraulic, it was, it was a marathon of job.
GR: Right, well that’s something I didn’t know, so you had to wind up.
MK: Yes I did. [turning pages of book].
GR: We are just looking at the log book.
MK: And that’s Silverstone, it was just after that.
GR: Yes.
MK: Twelve and a half hours I was on Stirlings, there we are that’s what I did on Stirlings, and then we was moved from there to North Luffenham on Lancasters.
GR: Yes, so that was 1653 Conversion Unit?
MK: Yes that was the conversion Heavy Conversion Unit and then I went to North Luffenham.
GR: Yes.
MK: And that’s where I converted onto Lancasters.
GR: And that was a better aircraft?
MK: Oh Christ, the Stirling was, it really it was I mean I was well eighteen, eighteen near enough nineteen, and it was it was bloody horses work winding that undercarriage, and if you look at that they were all circuits and landings.
GR: Yes.
MK: You did a circuit, wind the undercarriage up, round you went, flew, wound the bugger down and by the time you’d done a couple of hours of that you was knackered, absolutely knackered.
GR: And presumably that was when they were using Stirlings ‘cos it had been taken out of frontline operations in 1943.
MK: It was a stepping stone that’s all it was, and I mean when we got on the Lancs well of course that was automatic, because that was hard word.
GR: [laughs] So I’m looking at the log book and I would say most of well yeah January and a bit of February you were at Lancaster Finishing School?
MK: Yes, that’s 115 Squadron.
GR: Then off to Witchford
MK: Yeah.
GR: Which is 115 Squadron and I think the first flight you took there was on the 21st February ‘45. How did you feel, I mean obviously at the time you probably knew war was coming to a close obviously we’d invaded Europe and we’re pushing up into Germany so was it a case of you wanted to get on to operations before the war finished or was it the other way?
MK: Yes you were keen to get on operations but what I’ve got to say in all fairness the twelve ops I did I was in nowhere near the danger the blokes had been in earlier.
GR: Yeah, yeah.
MK: I mean I saw aircraft shot down, one of the photos which was I shall always remember seeing a Lancaster going down in flames and you could see the silhouette of the aircraft down in the flames you know that was at Potsdam.
GR: Was that daylight or?
MK: No no.
GR: Night time.
MK: No night time.
GR: Night time.
MK: Somewhere, here we are Potsdam, that one. That was a gentle reminder we was taking to the Nazis that the war was about over we were just it was a bit of a persuader that was the last one thousand bomber raid of the war.
GR: Right, that was on the 14th April 1945.
MK: We was led to believe that it was the last thousand bomber raid.
GR: Last thousand altogether yeah. I was just going to say were all your operations at night but?
MK: No, no.
GR: Heligoland was a daylight wasn’t it?
MK: The three red ones were at night, twice to Kiel and once to Potsdam I think it was, and the rest was daytime. I was in 3 Group and 3 Group specialised on daytime bombing mainly, 5 Group round in the Lincoln area they was the main night time.
GR: What was the first operation like obviously?
MK: Well, I can’t really remember like, I can remember going on and flying and sort of been bloody pleased when I got back home again. But, I was never, I never used me guns in action, I never had occasion to to use ‘em.
GR: Yeah, and I would think I mean obviously towards the end of the war the Luftwaffe whether it was a night time or day time were pretty thin.
MK: We was getting on top.
GR: Yes you were getting on top but the flak.
MK: Yeah.
GR: And certainly around looking at Kiel.
MK: Oh aye.
GR: They were still going strong.
MK: We we we got hit with flak you know, not enough to damage, but we did get flak damage.
GR: Yeah.
MK: Yeah.
GR: Yeah so not excited about being on operations and not afraid but probably something?
MK: Well you was, you was shall we put it like this you was all in it together, I mean I wouldn’t going to do a bombing raid on my own all the aircrew on the squadron were going want they, so you was just one of a band it’s like a gang going to a football match.
GR: Yeah.
MK: You know, you don’t look at the dangers you can’t look at the danger.
GR: No no no. So er more training although by into May ’45. So where was you when the war finished?
MK: Witchford.
GR: You was at Witchford. Was you on ops or?
MK: Oh aye. VE night we walked down into Ely it was about two and a half miles into Ely. We walked down and had a night out on the on the beer and stuff in in Ely, and you know that was I actually remember it was everybody we was, there was a pub we used to visit in Ely we got down there and it was full we couldn’t get in but it didn’t matter because the people was handing us beers through the window.
GR: Yeah. Obviously in uniform?
MK: Oh yeah, oh Christ aye.
GR: How did it feel you know you’d done nearly a year’s training?
MK: Yeah.
GR: And flown on operations for a month two month.
MK: Yeah that’s right. Yeah I mean I’ve got to say I was one of the lucky ones I wasn’t in when it was at its worst, but we was there and.
GR: Oh absolutely.
MK: If I’d been sent out to the Far East I could’ve still at been at it longer but you know ‘cos the war in the Far East carried on a bit longer.
GR: Was you approached to go on it was Tiger Force wasn’t it they got together to send out?
MK: Well, it was, it was you know, we was getting boss of ‘em like. I’ve a friend from New Leake he’s he was on Liberators on the Far East and he was still at it a little bit longer than me.
GR: So then I’m looking again at the beginning of May you took part in Operation Manna.
MK: Yeah.
GR: Which was supplying food.
MK: Food to The Hague.
GR: Yeah to the Dutch.
MK: Yeah.
GR: How did you feel about that it was a pleasure I presume?
MK: Well It was yeah. It was very interesting after the war we did such a lot of different things, we dropped supplies there, and then we we was flying troops home for leave from Italy and flying them back, I did that I can’t remember how many times seven or eight times, and we really enjoyed that. And then we did what they called Baedeker tours flying over the bomb damage of the of Germany and taking a few of.
GR: Taking a few of the ground crew round yeah yeah.
MK: So I went over the dams and things, and then we did a trip when the launch was of the Queen Queen Elizabeth, one of the big liners she was launched and we went out to fly to her and fly round her and back you know on an exercise that was good.
GR: ‘Cos there was a victory fly pass wasn’t there?
MK: Yeah I wasn’t on that.
GR: You wasn’t on that one yeah.
MK: [unclear] It was after that.
GR: So all the training went into a lot of logs. I know obviously Operation Manna there was four or five food drops.
MK: I did a lot of flying after the war it was till I was demobbed like you know then. There was a dodge [?] to Naples that was a trip, that was the trip when we lost the pilot’s luggage.
GR: Go on then tell us a little bit about that?
MK: Aye?
GR: Go on tell us a little bit about that?
MK: I’ve told you about it it’s that what was on the bottom there.
GR: Go on just repeat it again that was the pilot releasing the bomb bay doors by mistake.
MK: Yeah, we’d been airborne probably half an hour and he required the toilet, so he stood up from his pilot’s seat and as he was standing up his intercom cable caught the bomb door lever and opened the bomb doors, out went all the kit, and when we got to Naples I’d the privilege of telling the blokes that all the luggage is lost and that was a bit of a hairy few minutes.
GR: How many servicemen was there, how many servicemen did you get into the Lancaster?
MK: I would say about I would say about twelve or fifteen they just sat on the bomb bay top, on top of the bomb bay.
GR: ‘Cos it wasn’t the most –
MK: Oh no.
GR: It was a cramped aircraft?
MK: Well, no they’d.
GR: All right for a crew of seven?
MK: But they had they had room but they were just sat on the bomb bay they had no no comforts.
GR: Oh.
MK: Well it well it wasn’t you know.
GR: And when you were bringing the prisoners back?
MK: Yeah they was the same.
GR: The same thing they just sat.
MK: Yeah, yeah they just sat on the bomb bay. Whether you’ve been in a Lancaster?
GR: Yeah.
MK: You know where the rear gunner’s, there’s the bomb bay like here, and then there’s a big drop down in’t there.
GR: Yes.
MK: And they were sat from there to where the navigator and wireless operator sat, on on top there was a big flat area there, quite comfortable, room for well I would say you could have sat twenty on but I don’t think we brought quite as many as that, I can’t really be sure of the number.
GR: No no.
MK: No not to be honest I’ve an idea I would have said twelve or fourteen but I would stand corrected on that.
GR: So you lost all the servicemen’s kit?
MK: Yeah, we lost all their, all their personal kit yeah.
GR: When was you demobbed?
MK: Demobbed well I can’t remember.
GR: ’46?
MK: Yeah it was.
GR: Yeah.
MK: I can’t remember looking in here.
GR: Yeah. Was you given a chance to stay in or?
MK: Well there was, I I couldn’t get out quick enough, but by the time I’d come out I I realised I didn’t ought to have done. I’d have stopped in because there was an opportunity to re retrain and I would have liked to have stopped in and trained as a better tradesman gunnery for you know what I mean, but I didn’t do I come out. [unclear] ’44.
GR: It’s 1947 isn’t it, yeah 24th June 1947. I know some chaps who came out who were demobbed but then went back in again a couple of years later. What did you do after the war then?
MK: I was lorry driving.
GR: Lorry driving yeah.
MK: I was lorry driving for I don’t know about ten or eleven year and I finished up being transport manager for a company till I retired.
GR: Yeah. But you enjoyed your time in the RAF?
MK: Oh I did, oh I enjoyed it, I wouldn’t have missed it, no.
GR: Well that’s excellent, thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Maurice Kemp
Creator
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Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-25
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKempM160425
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:20:25 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Barrow-in-Furness
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Rutland
England--Suffolk
Germany
Germany--Potsdam
Germany--Kiel
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Before joining the Royal Air Force in January 1944, Maurice helped to build Coningsby aerodrome. After attending an Aircrew Reception Centre at Edgbaston, he passed as a wireless operator gunner, finishing as a gunner. He joined up at Lord’s cricket ground, went to RAF Bridgnorth, followed by an air gunnery course at RAF Walney Island. Maurice crewed up at RAF Silverstone on Wellingtons where the crew had two gunners. He went to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Stradishall on Stirlings. RAF North Luffenham followed and a Lancaster Finishing School as part of 115 Squadron. Maurice finished at RAF Witchford.
Maurice carried out 12 operations but never used his guns in action. Most of the operations were in daylight although he flew night-time operations to Kiel and Potsdam. He then took part in Operation Manna and flew troops to and from Italy. Maurice also participated in tours for ground crew to witness the damage in Germany.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
115 Squadron
1653 HCU
air gunner
aircrew
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Coningsby
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Silverstone
RAF Stradishall
RAF Walney Island
RAF Witchford
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
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f56dac581f8541f60a8ad337a85c6fce
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/610/8879/PMillerP1502.2.jpg
3c813b020292a9e12b3c53fd1df379ed
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/610/8879/AMillerP150601.1.mp3
520ae851d62c7ebbaff997e1fd396243
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Miller, Peter
P Miller
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Miller, P
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Peter Miller (3008496 Royal Air Force). He served as an air gunner and gunnery leader with 12 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PM: You, you want my name or rank?
MJ: Yeah.
MM: Name and rank. Um I’m Peter, I’m [laughs] I’m nearly as bad as you. I’m recording this for Peter Miller, who is my husband, for the International Bomber Command Centre on the 1st June 20 -
MJ: ‘15.
MM: ‘15. We’re at Wragby in Lincolnshire.
PM: When I was called up. Is that alright?
MM: Ahum.
PM: 25th of the 11th ‘43. Went to Cardington. I was only there for a week getting kitted out and such. Was sent to Skegness, my home town, to do a couple of months foot drill. I was billeted about half a mile from home. So, when in the town I was the person sent by cycle on errands. Afterwards was posted to Halton on a flight mechanics course on which I was made AC1. Leaving Halton on the 29th of the 5th ‘44 I went to Digby, Lincolnshire, 527 squadron. Enjoyed time off, such, it was a Canadian station at the time. Then being posted to Bircham Newton, Norfolk, 695 squadron who were drogue towing. After a short while there I was sent to Blackpool in November classed as a PDC from which we went to Liverpool to get a boat. A Dutch ship called the [oanvan oldabarnevoort?] which after, after a late start we caught the convoy and going down the Med at Christmas Eve sailing past Gib onto Aden, then to Ceylon to drop some, some, some people off and then back up to Bombay to a transit camp. From Bombay we went to a place called Cawnpore [Kanpur]. That was our destination - 322 MU. Spending two and a half years in Cawnpore [Kanpur], returning from Bombay on the SS Somalia landing in Liverpool for being demobbed at a transit camp just outside Blackpool early July ’47. That’s, that’s my service career.
MM: What did you think to India?
PM: It was air, do you want the aircraft I worked on?
MJ: Oh yeah. I mean, well, that’s a, that’s a nice round off way of putting things how they are but yeah where, what, what, what did you do in Bombay because it seems a long way to be having an aircraft. I mean if you -
PM: It seems like a long way to what?
MJ: It seems to be a long way to go and play with aircraft so I just wondered what you had to do there.
PM: We were servicing them.
MJ: Yeah.
PM: Um Liberators.
MM: It was a big camp wasn’t it, Peter?
PM: A very big camp. Worked on Liberators to start with. About -
MM: Did you enjoy India?
PM: About five months.
MM: Did you enjoy India?
PM: Well yes. It was alright.
MJ: I suppose it was a good place to get a suntan.
PM: Yeah. Yeah but mainly. I had almost two and a half years on Dakotas.
MJ: So you mainly worked on Dakotas.
PM: Yeah, air frames.
MJ: Air frame.
PM: Air frame fitter.
MJ: Was it, was it very busy being in India fitting or was it -
PM: We were busy.
MJ: Quiet?
PM: Of course we used to service them from all over South East Asia Command.
MJ: So, so when people think that you were um in India probably having a quieter time than most you probably, you weren’t were you? You ‘cause
PM: Oh no, we weren’t living it up.
MJ: No. I mean that’s what people would think. I mean
PM: Yeah.
MJ: That’s what I’m saying. A lot of people don’t associate India with the RAF do they?
PM: Yeah. We weren’t living it up.
MJ: No. So, so how did you, I imagine it was very hot over there was it? Or -
PM: Very hot.
MJ: So -
MM: And you went up in the hills didn’t you on your leave -
PM: Pardon?
MM: You enjoyed going up into the hills didn’t you? On leave.
PM: We used to get on, we used to get our normal leave but also we had a, we used to go on hill parties, a month, probably fifty or sixty used to go by train to the foothills and then up by wagons to the place we spent the, spent the leave, the holiday. I had my twenty first birthday in Darjeeling.
MJ: That must have been interesting.
PM: Yeah. It was alright [laughs]. But the other places were, were very fair. They used to take us as far as they could by train, Then we had to go on, on wagons further up.
MJ: Did -
PM: We used to go by train to Darjeeling. Pre, pre, pre-war I think the moneyed folks had taken Darjeeling over and they weren’t all that keen on us blokes out there going to Darjeeling but er we made them happy.
MJ: Did um -
PM: But that’s a lovely spot that.
MJ: So even though the work was hard it was quite a nice place to be.
PM: Yeah. But, but regarding, regarding the weather it, it was very hot. During the hot season we used to go to work in the morning. There for seven and we used to work while one and after 1 o’clock the time was our own.
MJ: It was too hot to work?
PM: Yeah.
MJ: So, so, so in a way you were working nights really?
PM: [laughs] But we were we’ve had everything done I think. There was, it was a very big camp. There was three villages on the camp.
MJ: Was, was it more than just RAF then?
PM: Pardon?
MJ: Was it more than just RAF?
PM: Just RAF.
MJ: So -
PM: Yeah.
MM: There were locals. The villagers were locals.
PM: Local villagers. They were on, on the side -
MJ: Side.
MM: Doing your washing for you.
PM: Well they used to, they were our bearers and things were alright until the war finished.
MJ: What happened then?
PM: Until the Jap war finished. And then Pakistan and India were having a go at one another.
MJ: So you got stuck in the middle.
PM: Well more or less. We wanted to get home. They held, well, we believed they held our demob up for a while.
MJ: Why because of the conflict between the two -
PM: Well, in case there was going to be. Nothing happened. We got on the boat and came home.
MJ: So that, that was a better deal than you thought.
PM: Yeah. One of the biggest laughs we got was when we got to Liverpool on the way home. We were getting off the boat and a jet went over. Never seen a jet.
MJ: No.
PM: Only heard about them. You should have heard the cheer that went up.
MJ: That must have been, so you were probably one of the first people to see a jet flying.
PM: Yeah. In Liverpool.
MJ: You don’t -
PM: Vampire.
MM: Yeah.
[Tape paused].
PM: The cold season out there -
MJ: Yeah.
PM: Is about like this.
MJ: So it’s like having summer in the winter is it?
PM: Yeah.
MJ: So did you, you got warm -
PM: The, the snag is um these blokes that’s been in, in the desert and that, they reckon it goes stone cold at night. Not India. The sun, the sun sets and that’s it. Nothing else. Then the sun comes up and it’s daylight again and you’re getting warmer.
MJ: Yeah. So did you find you had to do more work in the winter per se or, or is it ‘cause, ‘cause the engine, or did you have to sort of -
PM: Yeah, in the, in the cold season we’d probably work another hour a day.
MJ: That, that doesn’t sound a lot but I imagine in those sorts of heats everything buckles including yourself does it?
PM: Yeah.
MJ: I mean, did, did you have to bring in, how did you get everything to where you were ‘cause you were saying you didn’t have any transport as such.
PM: When, when the war finished we, we were, they were sending in um Liberators to our place for scrap. We had a colossal scrapheap there. They were sending these Liberators there because - I don’t want it recorded because -
MJ: No it’s alright.
PM: Yeah well what we heard was that the Yanks wouldn’t take them back as returned lease-lend.
MJ: Well I mean that -
PM: And we just had to get rid of them but we weren’t allowed to sell them. That’s, that’s all we heard. They were wheeling them down to salvage and there was about seventy or eighty Libs there when I got posted home but on other places there was more Libs.
MJ: So I mean -
PM: And they just started destroying them. Took anything that, everything that was any use off the Libs and then, I can’t remember which station it was but there was one station in India was, had started to destroy the Libs. I, I don’t know what, well anybody that was in the RAF on aircraft would say it’s easier to build one then take one to bits. They um they took all instruments that were of any use out.
MJ: Right.
PM: Dinghies, first aid, everything like that. Armoury. All that out and then they took them onto the scrap, down to the scrapyard and drained all the oil out, out the engines and started the engines up and ran them flat out until they went bang.
MJ: So that they couldn’t be used again.
PM: No use whatsoever.
MJ: You know if -
PM: And then they recommended that what you did was have a, have a wagon or tractor fastened to the front of them and drive the tail unit up against a wall or something like that to break them up. Anything that’s riveted you see you can’t get it to bits by, by just undoing it.
MJ: It was built to last so -
PM: But that’s, that’s how it was but there was, there was about seventy at Cawnpore [Kanpur] when I came home that, that hadn’t been touched. Well, I say hadn’t been touched they’d been stripped but hadn’t been damaged.
MJ: I don’t think that was just yourself. I’ve heard things go, you know, because it’s hard to trans. Do you think it was hard to transport the stuff back? I -
MM: Distance.
MJ: You think -
PM: But the –
MJ: I would have thought it would be the pure economics of getting something, it was more expensive to -
PM: If the Yanks had taken them back they could have flown them back.
MJ: Do you think so?
PM: Yeah. I’m sure. They flew them there they could have flown them back.
MJ: Did, did any of the, anything else get left behind? Was it just the planes? Just, everyone leaves everything behind or did you bring most of it back?
PM: Well I don’t know what happened to them at Cawnpore [Kanpur] because they were still there when I left but there was a reunion at Cawnpore [Kanpur]. I was going on it but I got a new [motor?] and I couldn’t go and er the chaps said that the Indian air force wouldn’t let them anywhere near the salvage.
MJ: They wouldn’t let them anywhere near salvage. Well I’m surprised it’s still there.
PM: Yeah. They wouldn’t let them anywhere near salvage.
MM: But you used to go swimming didn’t you? You had a pool.
PM: Oh we’d go swimming. There was a swimming pool on the camp.
MM: A swimming pool and that. You enjoyed that.
MJ:: More than I can do.
MM: I can’t swim.
MJ: Yeah.
MM: So I mean there was some good times wasn’t there?
PM: Oh yes we had some good times.
MM: Good times. Friends. Lots of laughs.
PM: Off the camp mainly, the good times.
MM: Used to go down to one of the places nearby didn’t you? Villages, towns whatever you called it.
PM: Oh we used to go in, in to Cawnpore [Kanpur] itself.
MM: Yeah.
PM: The city
MJ: Well you say it’s a city. Was it sort of like -
MM: How big?
MJ: Was it a big place or –
PM: Oh it was a big place -
MJ: ‘Cause I mean -
PM: The city was. Yeah. The actual RAF camp was called, oh God - Chakeri.
MJ: Oh right. I thought -
PM: It was about four mile out of Cawnpore [Kanpur] but Cawnpore [Kanpur] was a city and we used to call the camp Cawnpore [Kanpur]. It was always Cawnpore [Kanpur].
MJ: Um maybe -
PM: Where were you stationed? Cawnpore [Kanpur].
MM: But you used to have meals didn’t you, in the city, when you went out?
PM: You what?
MM: You used to go for meals didn’t you? In the city went out -
PM: Oh could do. Yeah. Go in to the city. But we were only allowed in one part of the city. They um it was out of bounds to us.
MJ: It’s er so -
PM: It was, it was our military that put it out of bounds to us. They wouldn’t, wouldn’t let us in the -
So it wasn’t inflicted. It wasn’t, you weren’t put out of bounds by the city itself. It was the hierarchy of the military itself.
PM: Yeah. Yeah.
MJ: Saying you couldn’t go to certain parts.
PM: That’s it. Yeah.
MJ: Ah and did you, could you go out of uniform or did you have to be in uniform?
PM: We was, we were out of uniform most of the time. I mean when we used to go to work in a morning, 7 o’clock in the morning, you’d have a, a pair of shorts on, socks and shoes, bush hat and sunglasses and we used to go to work like that and at 1 o’clock when we, when we finished work we used to walk, we didn’t march back or anything. We used to walk back in groups, probably call at the swimming pool on the way back, used to go back and have lunch and then just loaf about.
MJ: Well I imagine it’s, it’s too hot to do anything else at that time. I mean -
PM: It was a funny old time.
MJ: Yeah I can agree with you there. You –
[Tape paused]
MM: Yeah.
PM: About the same height as I am now.
MM: Six foot.
PM: Weighed seven and a half stone.
MM: Rather slim.
PM: I got a demob suit and I kept my best blue. And I came home. The demob suit was slightly too big for me. ‘You’ll grow out of it’, that was that you see, which I did. Within, within a month my blue didn’t fit me. I didn’t care ‘cause I chucked it away and my demob suit was dead tight. I had to collect all the, all the family clothing coupons together and go and get measured for a suit, ‘Make it plenty big enough’ and I stopped growing then [laughs]. So I got one suit big and the other, other two too small.
MJ: So most people stopped growing and you took that many years to grow-
MM: His mother’s cooking that was. Put the weight on you. [laughs] Didn’t it?
PM: Yeah.
MM: Your mum’s cooking -
PM: Yeah.
MM: Yeah. Built you up again.
PM: My mother was in the first war.
MM: First World War.
PM: In the RAF. In Germany.
MJ: [That’s what?]
PM: Yeah. In the Royal Flying Corp.
MM: As it was then. Yeah.
MJ: So you inherited the job did you?
MM: Must have done.
PM: Yeah.
PM: When, when you were on about servicing, servicing aircraft we had to be there, we were in the hangars for 7 o’clock in the morning but if there were any aircraft either stuck outside or in the hangar that were going out you checked the tyre pressures before the sun got on them because you never know what the tire pressure would be after about an hour in the sun out there.
MM: And of course they couldn’t fly them till they’d got your little signature could they?
PM: Hmmn?
MM: You couldn’t fly them till they got your little signature.
PM: Oh no couldn’t. Well I was one of a team. I was the air frame rigger um on a Liberator four engines so there’d be four engine fitters, instruments, wires um guns and turrets all had to be checked and signed for before the pilot could have it.
MJ: How long did that take?
PM: Hmmn?
MJ: How long did that take?
PM: Well I mean if the aircraft was, was, was alright, if it had come out of the hangar after, after a major service it would be taken out on a test flight. One of each trade would go up with him if it was a bomber. Go up with him and you’d fly around and everything was alright. Come back. You’d check up again. Then before it flew again tomorrow it had to be serviced because between flights inspections on RAF aircraft if it, if an aircraft came, came up from London and landed on your airport there would be a between flights inspection before it could go again.
MJ: Oh I didn’t know that.
PM: Yeah.
MJ: How often did that happen?
PM: Hmmn?
MJ: Did that happen regularly?
PM: That was it. Between flights inspection. And being, being a rigger, that’s what I was, they were the last to sign the 700. The 700 was the aircraft manual and every, everybody that was concerned with anything on the aircraft had to sign and the rigger was the last one to sign because he was responsible for um the petrol cap being loose. Nothing, nothing to do with him normally. The um the blokes driving the petrol bowsers used to tighten them up but it was, it was his aircraft and he had to do something about it. So he used to tighten, tighten it up and any, any little panel that was loose he’d secure the panels and that before he signs and until he signed they couldn’t go anywhere.
MJ: Did you have a team of riggers or was it just you per plane?
PM: What?
MJ: Was it just you on one plane or did you have a few?
PM: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
MJ: So -
PM: Didn’t, didn’t do a half a dozen planes. Just, just the one plane.
MJ: Yeah but did you work as a rigger on your own or did you have someone helping you?
PM: Was, was
MM: Was there more than one rigger on each plane?
PM: No. Only one rigger.
MM: Ahum.
PM: Yeah.
MJ: So that’s a lot of rivets.
MM: Ahum check them [laughs].
PM: Yeah well the aircraft, the framework of the aircraft and everything in general was alright. It was day to day um events um tyres and things like that. Brakes slipping. All those sort of things.
MJ: Do you think you had more trouble because it was hotter there than most would have?
PM: Of course being a rigger brakes were my job as well. [laughs]
MM: You said when you went to Halton it was a case of half of them for engines half of them for airframes wasn’t it?
PM: Yeah.
MM: So it just depends which side of the room you were on [laughs] you were telling me.
PM: [laughs] Yeah.
MM: You had some fun down there at Halton didn’t you?
PM: You what?
MM: Had some fun at Halton.
PM: Halton. Yeah. It was um water shortage. Halton camp is on a hill. The hill, the hill is that far and high that there’s two parade grounds on the hill.
MJ: Two?
PM: Two parade grounds on the hill. You go through the gates, you go up and, oh from here to the bridge there’s the bottom of the parade ground and it goes back into the hills and you carry, you carry on up the hill there and about, about another twenty, thirty foot up there’s another parade ground. It was a hell of a camp Halton was. It was a, um what’s it -
MM: Training?
PM: Oh God.
MM: Officer’s training do you say?
PM: No.
MM: No.
PM: Weren’t officers. They -
MM: Cadets.
PM: When you join, you join the RAF you -
MM: Cadets?
PM: You was a member. I was a member of the air force but I was only a sort of a temporary member but I, I, I didn’t sign on for ten years or owt like that but all the regulars they, they were right under the thumb. By hell they were.
MJ: So you think it was different for you. Was it ‘cause you -
PM: Yeah.
MJ: Because you were sort of part time if you like.
PM: Yeah.
MJ: For a better word.
PM: I liked Halton. It was a nice camp.
MM: Taught you how to shoot there didn’t there?
PM: Hmmn?
MM: Taught you how to shoot there didn’t they?
PM: Yeah.
MJ: This is um -
MM: One poor chap. Everybody dashed because -
PM: We had two, we had two Jewish lads -
MJ: Yeah.
PM: By God they were dim [laughs] and er they, they, they were on a, on a rigger’s course but everything, everything went wrong with them. On one day we had um rifle training so went up on the, up on the bus up the hill and there was um the targets. Perhaps six or seven targets.
MJ: Right.
PM: And a wall, a wall just below them and behind, behind the wall there was a trench so the blokes, blokes up there looking after, looking after the targets they were, they were safe and you had ten rounds and you just, you had your ten rounds and you got in front of one of, one of the targets and that and you’d been told how to fire them and everything. The corporal would shout, ‘Fire.’ And then down there on the range there used to be a flag on a pole come out and he used to stick on to the target where, where the bullet had gone through, if it had gone through. Well these two Jewish lads they couldn’t even hit the target never mind [laughs] and there was everybody else had to get off and let them pick their own target and everything. Our corporal was on the phone to them down there and, ‘Right. Fire. Take your time.’ Bang. Flag went like that. Bang. Next time it went [beuuuu]. Phone rang. Corporal said, ‘What’s the matter?’ He said, ‘He hit my mate.’ He’d, he’d hit his tin hat. Hit his tin hat. This bullet and had gone off his tin hat.
MJ: So he was safe though?
PM: Yeah.
MM: Most of them.
PM: And then we had hand grenades. There was, there was this wall. All sandbanks and that and over the other side of the wall about there, there was a, there was a hole and behind this wall there was another wall and everybody used to get behind that wall and the corporal used to bring one bloke around and show him, show him everything, make sure he, he was holding the grenade right, then he used to toss it over to go in the hole. Everybody else was doing alright and this one he dropped the grenade the other side just on the top and it rolled down so the corporal grabbed hold of this bloke, pushed him down and more or less sat on him. Bang. ‘That was close wasn’t it?’ the corporal said. And, and, we, we went up into the, up the hills. Sten guns. They were deadly you know. If you dropped a sten gun it’d bounce about all over the place till it emptied and [laughs] there was two corporals that had never, never met these two. ‘Watch them. We know what we’re doing.’ Corporals, ‘Alright.’ Showed them how to go on and everything. Give these two a sten gun each, got them to load them, ‘Don’t do anything. We’ll have you one at a time so you come with me.’ So he fired. Nowhere near the target or anything like that but he got shot of the, the ammo. The second one went, spun around, he says to the corporal, ‘It won’t fire’ pointing it at the corporal. [laughs] God. He said, ‘Stand still. Let go of the trigger. Put it down.’ If there hadn’t been anybody else around he would have clouted him around the side of the earhole with the sten. Anyway, they got rid of them. I don’t know where they went to but they were no good as, no good on engines or airframes or anything like that. They were completely useless, the pair of them.
MM: They were only young though you see weren’t they? Eighteen and a half.
PM: Yeah they’d only be just over eighteen.
MM: That’s what I mean. Today –
PM: Yeah.
MM: They’re at school aren’t they?
MJ: Yeah. So it’s surprising you’re here.
MM: Yeah.
PM: Yeah.
MM: Then he come back to Digby, Lincolnshire.
PM: Eh?
MM: You enjoyed Digby in Lincolnshire didn’t you?
PM: Yeah.
MM: No calamities there?
PM: No. Come back to Digby.
MM: You used to go in to Lincoln didn’t you?
PM: Yeah. Used to go in to Lincoln.
MM: On time off.
PM: It was a Canadian station. Everything underground.
MJ: Underground?
PM: Eh?
MM: Underground.
MJ: Everything underground?
PM: Everything was built underground. It was a radio and radar station. We didn’t, we didn’t know that when we were stationed there but, but they used to work underground.
MJ: That’s -
PM: At Digby. It was good station. It was a Canadian station.
MJ: Was that better than the RAF ones?
PM: Well, they were better supplied than what we were.
MM: Food was good [laughs] Yeah.
PM: Yeah a lot better supplied.
[Tape paused]
PM: We were all, all air frame fitters and one of the station aircraft, we got two Dakotas belonging to the station. One had gone to Lahore.
MJ: Right.
PM: From our place and um next morning they were refuelling it and the chap drove the petrol bowser with the dipstick sticking out and tore the underside of the wing. Well that was it you see. He didn’t just tear the surface of the wing he, he buckled the main spar. So we, we had several Dakotas there that would probably never fly again and using them as spares and got hold of, got hold of my mate we did and get a, get a mainplane from, from salvage. Give him, give him all the gen on this one aircraft, ‘Go and, go and check if it’s alright.’ So he come back he said, ‘Yeah it’s alright.’ He said ‘Right. The three of you,’ he says, ‘You Miller’ and what his name, ‘Go and fetch it off.’ And we took, we took the crane down with us and we got the, got the trestles and everything and the jacks underneath it’s wing and we disconnected the wing and took it away completely from the engines you see. You’ve got the two engines there and a centre section between them and the fuselage but beyond the engines that’s the outer so we got that and we got a Queen Mary. You know the Queen Mary’s, we used? The um -
MJ: Ahum?
PM: The long, the long low loaders. Very wide, ten foot wide, that the RAF used to drive around you’ve seen them there their low loaders haven’t you? They’re called the Queen Mary’s. They’re ten, ten foot wide and during the war if, if you had to take anything with, with a Queen Mary through, through a town you had a police escort and they’d take you the best way through the town because of, because of the width of the vehicle. And we loaded this, loaded this mainplane and all the gear we wanted and everything and we cleared off to Lahore. The three of us. It took us three days to get there. Close on four hundred mile.
MJ: What were the -
PM: Well the roads in India were just like the roads down to the villages here and we got there and this Warrant Officer [Pryor?] said, ‘Goodness I’m pleased to see you lot.’ He said, ‘Get on with it.’ So we took, took this mainplane off and they carted it off to salvage there and um they got all the gear there, got all the gear and everything but they wouldn’t let them touch it.
MJ: Why was that?
PM: So we, we had to do it you see. The plane belonged to us so we, we, we got the mainplane off and everything, put the other one up got it all, all bolted in. Everything. Control cables, electrics, everything and got hold of Taf Bevan, ‘Right. Fly it.’
MJ: How long did that take you?
PM: Hmmn?
MJ: How long did that take you?
PM: Well three days overall. ‘Fly it.’ He says, ‘Alright. Sign.’ So we signed for it and everything. The warrant officer, the err engineering officer at whatsit, he said, ‘You’ve done a very good job you blokes have.’ The CO was there as well. At Lahore. He was, he was there as well. He said, ‘It looks very, very nice,’ he says. He said, ‘I’ll get on to,’ Oh I don’t know the name of our CO. He said, ‘I’ll get on to him and tell him what a good job you’ve done.’ And we went up with Taf and he, he said, ‘Nothing wrong with this. It’s alright.’ Taf Bevan, he was a bloody Welshman. We never did find out his name. His first name. Never. And he was a warrant officer. He wouldn’t, he wouldn’t take a commission. He just wanted to stay non-commissioned.
MJ: Did he say why?
PM: Warrant officer.
MJ: Yeah. Did he say why he didn’t want to take a commission?
PM: He said, ‘I don’t want to be with that crowd stuck in the officer’s mess and that. Better off in the sergeant’s mess.’ He said, ‘I’m away next morning.’ We said, ‘You’re bloody well not without us mate’ and we transferred the um the Queen Mary to Lahore and climbed in the Dak with him and flew home. Thirty minutes. [laughs]
[Tape paused]
PM: Now can’t you? Between you?
MJ: I think so. You should be able to.
PM: You just, you know, well why not do that?
MJ: Did you -
PM: What about that? [Oh bought]
MJ: Yeah. People don’t think that so that’s why your lifestyle is different to todays because people don’t realise what you did. I mean so -
MM: Things have changed so much haven’t they? So much.
PM: I know we were on a test flight one day with Taf and um Taf used to let us take control for a while. He used to sit there but he knew what was happening and everything and one of the blokes he said, ‘Do you want it Taf?’ Taf says, ‘No.’ He says, ‘Just carry on.’ He got it lined up. It was about three mile out from the end of the runway. ‘Go on. You’re alright.’ He said, ‘Shall I land it?’ ‘No you bloody well won’t land it’ [laughs] He said, ‘I’d be the laughing stock of the bloody sergeant’s mess. Come out.’
MJ: Yeah.
PM: We used to, on a Dakota there’s a cockpit and there’s a cabin and it’s the full length of the aircraft near enough. You go in, you go in the double doors.
MJ: Right.
PM: And you go up to the, to another door and that that’s the control. There’s navigator, radio operator, two pilots and we used to, about three, four of us used to get up near the door and Taf would be sat there you know, nodding away there to himself and that. ‘Right. Now.’ And we’d run to the other end to the tail end [laughs]. ‘Come up here you lot.’
MM: He knew what you was doing?
PM: We, we’d run to the tail end.
MM: Yeah and made it, realised.
PM: [Climb?]
MM: Yeah.
MM: Realised what you were. You had a laugh at East Kirkby didn’t you?
PM: Yeah.
MM: They were doing a Dakota up at East Kirkby.
PM: Yeah. They were.
MM: You went out to, to have look and you said to the lads there, ‘Can I have a look inside it.’ I think you managed to get in it didn’t you?
PM: Yeah.
MM: And anyway you said to them.
PM: ‘Do you know anything about them?’ I said, ‘Yeah a little bit. I used to be on them in the air force way back.’ ‘Bloody hell. When?’ I said, ‘Oh I came out in ‘47.’ ‘God, I weren’t even bloody well born then.’
MM: Made you feel very, very old didn’t it duck [laughs] yeah.
PM: They were a lovely aircraft to work on. Dakota is. No trouble whatsoever.
MJ: Didn’t bite back.
PM: Hmmn?
MJ: Didn’t bite back.
MM: No. [laughs]
PM: They were no trouble at all. Used to fly around with the doors off.
MJ: Why?
PM: You see there’s, there was a passenger door and a cargo door on them.
MJ: Yeah.
PM: Take one or the other or both doors off. It didn’t half whistle and that inside the aircraft.
MM: Was there any reason to take the doors off though?
PM: No. No.
MM: No.
PM: You either take it off before you fly or when you land. You don’t take it off while you’re flying.
MM: No, presume not.
MJ: Was there any reason why you took them off when you flew? Or was it just because they were in the way?
PM: The doors come inwards. Not outwards.
MJ: So -
MM: What reasons did you take them off for?
PM: Eh?
MM: What reason did you take them off for?
PM: Well.
MM: Can you remember?
PM: No particular reason.
MM: Oh. Good job it wasn’t raining.
PM: During the war, on the Dakotas, along the top of the fuselage there was little windows about that size, along. So that when they were carrying troops they could open one of those windows and fire at any aircraft that was attacking them.
MM: Ahum.
PM: If they were carrying troops.
MJ: Really?
PM: Yeah. Yeah, I’m not kidding.
MM: Never heard of it.
MJ: I wouldn’t have thought of that one.
PM: I’m not kidding. Liberators, you know, you used to get in and out through the bomb, bomb bay. Get in and out through the bomb bay. The bomb doors, the bottom of the Lib is only about that far off the ground and the bomb doors go up like that and there’s a cat walk right through. The cat walk goes to, to the rear where there’s a mid-upper gunner and two, two [waist] gunners. One each side. And a rear gunner.
MJ: So you always had -
PM: And if, if you go forward up a couple of steps you get on to the flight deck where the crew, the air crew go. You, if they’re flying around and they opened the bomb doors there isn’t a bloody soul would dare go across that cat walk. From the back to the front or the front to the back. There’s not a soul would dare go. It’s, it’s perfectly safe, there’s no, no danger whatsoever and there’s plenty to hold on to. Hold on to all the bomb racks.
MJ: But no one would do it.
PM: Nobody would go in. No one would do it.
[Tape paused]
MJ: So what was this about Fred then?
PM: He, he used to go out first thing in a morning, he’d go to bed at night about nine, but first thing in the morning, probably 5 o’clock he’d cross to the cookhouse to get his porridge before they put sugar in it. Yeah. He wanted salt in his you see. Yeah. Well he was always messing about with, with animals and that and he went out one morning for a walk and there was a narrow path, trees at each side and that. He was approaching this corner when around the corner there come this panther. He says, ‘It stopped and I stopped, of course.’ He said, and its tail was going like that. He said, ‘And we stood there for about three quarters of an hour. Seemed like it.’ He said, ‘And I thought if that bloody thing comes at me there’s a tree just behind me. I can leap behind hopefully.’ He said, ‘I daren’t look around.’ He said, ‘I was weighing all this up’ he said and all of a sudden the panther put the foot down on the ground, spun around and shot off back the way it came,’ he said, ‘ And I shot off the way I came.’ He said, ‘We were about twenty five miles apart in ten minutes.’ He, he was, he was always doing something like that. Always messing about with, with animals. There was an empty cookhouse and he went and there was a wild cat in the bloody cookhouse. ‘I’ll have that.’ He went in there. This wildcat was flying around the walls. He said it was going that fast it was on the walls. He said, ‘I didn’t know what to do with it,’ he said, but the windows, the windows were all shut except one. He said it took a flying leap at that and crashed straight through the glass and everything and away it went. He said it went out, missed, missed the veranda and everything and landed out in the middle of the road. [laughs] He said, ‘I wasn’t frightened of it.’ [laughs]
MM: And who slept on a snake? One of you lads found a snake under his mattress.
PM: Yeah. Yeah. Rum lad that.
MM: Who was that? Who found a snake under his mattress?
PM: Oh er who was it? One of the other lads. Fred said, ‘I’ll get that out for you.’ He outed it. ‘Cause you see if you found a snake out there you had to find the other bugger. Nearly always travelled in pairs.
MJ: Do they?
PM: Ahum we had a, we had a snake in our billet one night. We got it and finished it off and we were looking around for its mate. Couldn’t find its mate anywhere so that was it. Wasn’t going under the mossie nets. Next morning this bloke got up and er there was this snake laid, laid in there. It had been crushed. He’d crushed it. You see the beds out there were wood. They were just a wooden frame and then there was like string across and then what they called a dhurry. It was like, just like an [asbestos] sheet the size of your bed. When you went anywhere you know on guard at night or something like that you took whatever you wanted in your dhurry. Got it all wrapped up in the dhurry. Then you had your mossie net and your mossie net was you had four, four bamboo canes that used to go inside the legs across the back of the bed like that and your mossie net went on the top and your mossie net was shaped, was shaped just like, just like a box. The box was down, the box was that way up and the things, the sides of the net came down you see and these, these four bamboo canes they went up behind, behind the leg and up the inside of the nets so it was all sprung out. That was how your mossie nets went. There were times when we’ve taken the mossie nets down and inverted them and then put the bed inside, inside it.
MM: But this snake that you was talking about.
PM: It was an open top.
MM: This snake you was talking about was underneath this here mattress thing wasn’t it?
PM: Underneath the dhurry.
MM: Yeah.
PM: Yeah.
MM: I didn’t realise he’d been sleeping on it all night.
PM: No. No.
MM: No. Oh horrible things.
PM: Well it was dead anyway. Fred says, ‘Poor little bugger. You’ve been laid on it all night.’
MJ: I’d like to thank Mr Miller on behalf of the International Bomber Command project on the 1st of January no oh June 2015 for his interview and, and for myself I’d like to thank him. My name’s Michael Jeffery and this is the end of the interview.
MM: My name is Mavis Miller, recording this for the International Bomber Command Centre on the 1st of June 2015. We live at Horncastle Road, Wragby, Lincolnshire. Yeah. I was at Minting, school at Minting, during the war. We lived about four miles from Bardney aerodrome so we saw a lot of the RAF lads and the WAAFs who used to come to the Sebastopol at Minting. My father also worked at the Bardney aerodrome so we were involved quite a bit. He always used to come home very distressed when, at times, the bombers would come back with the air force lad’s uniforms having to be burned because they were blood stained. Another small happening during the war was I was with my friends down Hungerham Lane about a half a mile from my home when we saw two of our fighters firing at this German fighter and it was brought down at Baumber, again only about three or four fields away from where we were. Unfortunately, no one got out the plane. We were told that it went up in flames. The farm workers couldn’t get anywhere near it but I was pleased to get home that night safe and sound. I think that’s about the end of my experiences.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command Historical Unit I’d like to thank Mrs Miller for her stories of when she was a child and on the June the 1st 2015 I’d like to end the interview.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Peter Miller
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-01
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMillerP150601
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:02:55 audio recording
Description
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Peter was called up in November 1943 and after basic training was sent to RAF Halton to be trained as a flight mechanic. Whilst there he had several dangerous incidents during small arms training.
Initially posted to 527 Squadron, which was Canadian, at RAF Digby and then to 695 squadron at RAF Bircham Newton working on drogue towing aircraft.
Posted overseas, he arrived at RAF Chakeri near Kampur where he worked on servicing B-24 and C-47 aircraft for South East Asia Command. He recalls that as an airframe mechanic he had to sign the Form 700 certifying that all the other trades had carried out their servicing correctly.
The local town was largely off-limits and only certain parts were allowed to be visited. The weather was very hot and in the summer hill parties were sent to the hills to escape the heat. Peter spent his 21st birthday at Darjeeling. When hostilities ceased the spent its time dismantling and scrapping B-24s aircraft. Whilst India was partitioned, Peter's demobilisation was postponed in case of tensions between India and Pakistan.
After two and a half years he was sent home via Liverpool, where he saw his first jet, and was demobilised in July 1947.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1947-07
1943-11
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
India
India--Kānpur
India--Darjeeling
Pakistan
Contributor
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Terry Holmes
B-24
C-47
fitter airframe
flight mechanic
fuelling
ground crew
petrol bowser
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Chakeri
RAF Digby
RAF Halton
service vehicle