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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/115/3594/ABaileyHH160501.1.mp3
c187bc9461210d109c6c12f4c52d0e9e
Dublin Core
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Title
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Bailey, Harold H
H H Bailey
Bill Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of an oral history interview with Harold Hubert 'Bill' Bailey (b. 1925, 2221922 Royal Air Force) and eight photographs.
Bill Bailey completed 37 operations as a rear gunner with 31 Squadron, South African Air Force as part of 205 Group. He flew from Egypt, Palestine and Italy and took part in supply drops to partisan groups in Italy and Yugoslavia.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bill Bailey and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Date
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2016-05-01
Identifier
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Bailey, HH
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: Right. This is Gary Rushbrook with Warrant Officer Bill Bailey on the 1st of May and we are at Bill’s house near Nottingham and I’ll hand you over to Bill who will tell us a little bit about his early life.
HHB: Right. Well, I was born in Stafford in 1925. 21st of January. And er we moved around different houses there.
GR: Brothers and sisters?
HHB: I had a brother. He was three years older than me. Mum and dad were, father was in the First World War but he came through it all right.
GR: Yeah. What was he in? Was he in the army?
HHB: He was in the royal artillery, yes.
GR: Royal artillery. Yeah.
HHB: And so I went to school there but unfortunately when I was about six or seven mother and father split up so just left there me, my dad and my brother and he worked at a local electricity works
GR: Right.
HHB: Doing general maintenance work, I think. Anyway, when I got to about nine he got offered a job and a house in Stoke on Trent. Shelton, Stoke on Trent so we moved there, and he went to do metre reading so of course I went to school then at Cauldon Road School in, in Shelton till I was just over fourteen. Course being fourteen in the January just over the Christmas period I had to go to the Easter to leave. So, whenever I was off school I always used to go back to Stafford to an aunt and uncle of mine. So, when they knew I was leaving school, unbeknown to me, they applied for a job at the Stafford Post Office as a telegram boy and the next thing I know was I got a letter, ‘You’re starting work on Monday.’ I left on the Friday and started work on Monday at Stafford, you know, as a telegram boy. I’d not even had an interview so I wonder -
GR: So you had two days at the weekend from school to going to work.
HHB: Yeah. I think there was a bit of something going there ‘cause I’d got an uncle who worked there at the Stafford Post Office. He was a supervisor there so I don’t know whether he pulled any strings. I don’t know but I never had an interview. So on the day I had to report I reported there and I saw the head postmaster. I think his name was Adams. Had a chat and out I went to, in to a room where all the other telegram boys were. They were five of us and our names all began with B. Bailey, Buckshaw, Buck, Beaver and Blakeman all began with B and of course the five Bees. So anyway I went out with one of the boys to get the hang of what you did and then I had to go and report to be measured for a uniform which was a few weeks coming but anyway eventually I got that. And so I stayed there until I was about just over sixteen, seventeen and then I got the option then of either going in to the, as a postman, the postal side or the engineering side.
GR: I presume war had already broken out by then.
HHB: Yeah, war had broke out -
GR: Yeah,
HHB: September 3rd. Yes. I’d been at work since April. So, yeah so I was there as I say seventeen and then I went on the telecoms side, Post Office telephones, as an apprentice, two year apprentice. So, of course time went on. It was five year, five year apprentice sorry. I er of course by this time all my friends who had gone on the postal side had been called up. Unfortunately, or fortunately whichever the case you look at it I was classed as a reserved occupation. Course with telecoms which in them days was probably more important than what it is now.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, I did one or two courses. Went to in Birmingham and that was there once when they had a bit of a raid. Fortunately, it wasn’t in the part I was on. And I got a bit, thought I wish I’d, wanted to join the air force when I left school. I remember the woodwork teacher saying what are you going to do? I said I’d like to go in the air force and that was in 1939. Anyway, so I saw this advert in the paper air gunners said they wanted. It was only a very little slip so I cut it out, didn’t tell anybody, filled it in and posted it off. Course I was still living with my aunt and uncle then in Stafford and, and out of the blue I get a letter back to go to Birmingham Air Crew Attestation Centre, ACAC, on such and such a date for three or four days for interview and tests.
GR: So, you actually filled in a form that was in the paper.
HHB: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: To join up.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Incredible.
HHB: It was only a little thing.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A big, “Join the Air Force” and this little thing. Anyway, I went there and we had various tests, eye tests.
GR: I’m just going to pause it for one minute.
HHB: Yeah. Right. So I went to the Air Crew Attestation Centre at Birmingham and had fitness tests and general knowledge test and eyesight test and goodness knows what and then I had to [parade eventually in front of I don’t know what rank they were now, got quite a number of rings on their sleeves, ‘Why do you want to be an air gunner?’ Blah blah. ‘I don’t know why. Because I want to be,’ you know. ‘What’s your parents say?’ Well I hadn’t told my dad. I hadn’t told my auntie. So I said, ‘Well they don’t mind.’ ‘What about your employer?’ That was the post office telephones. ‘Have you asked permission?’ I said ahem, ‘Yes.’ I hadn’t.
GR: You hadn’t.
HHB: So they said, ‘Right.’ So they’d got some model aeroplanes on the table. ‘What’s that?’ ‘A Blenheim.’ ‘What’s that?’ ‘A Wellington.’ ‘What’s that?’ ‘Junkers 88.’ ‘You know your airplanes don’t you?’ Anyway, I, that was more or less it. Off I went. Later on they called us all in, called the names out you’ve been accepted. You’ll be hearing from us. So of course I went back to work at Stafford in Telecoms and I got a letter from them, ‘We haven’t received a letter from your employer giving you permission.’ So I wrote back and said, ‘It hasn’t come back yet.’ Anyway, they must have got fed up with this because they wrote to the area manager at Stoke on Trent and I got instructions to go to Stoke to see the area manager. So I walked in, I forget his, Sefton I think his name was. I walked in and, ‘Oh yes, Bailey. You’ve applied to join the air force.’ ‘Yes sir.’ ‘You didn’t ask me if you could go.’ ‘No sir.’ Oh well. Anyway, had a general natter. He said, ‘Alright, well I’ll let you go. I’ll write to them and say you can go.’ About a fortnight after that I got my call up papers.
GR: Right.
HHB: October and off I went down to the usual place, Lords Cricket Ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Found my way across London. I’d never been to London before at eighteen and a bit, just over eighteen years old, you know. Anyway, I got to lords cricket ground and we all formed up. ‘Right, in here.’ We went in a long room which everybody else must have done as well.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Drop your trousers. Well people, well, I forgot to say I’d been in the Home Guard for a while. I was underage but of course the captain wanted, the lieutenant wanted to get enough recruits to make him captain he let me go in, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, I’d been used to all this sort of thing, you know when we went on camp. So of course I dropped my trousers, ‘C’mon drop your trousers’ and then of course the MO came along with his stick. Right, everybody, ‘Alright off you can go.’ So I walked out then and then they called out names and we were billeted in blocks in St Johns Wood. Blocks of flats. And we was there a fortnight and we had general tests again. I had two teeth out but they wouldn’t let you fly, they said with filled teeth.
GR: With fillings in your teeth.
HHB: With filling yeah so I sat in this chair and put my head back and getting ready to shout and this lovely blond face came over. She said. ‘It’ll be alright.’ Well, I couldn’t shout out then could I but anyway I had that out and that was it. I then waited. We were going to Bridlington to ITW of course so we went up to ITW and we was there for six weeks.
GR: That’s initial training isn’t it?
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: While we was there they decided that people who were higher qualified in the course would go straight to Dalcross Gunnery School instead of going to Elementary Gunner School at, was it Cosford? So, many of us went straight up to AGS Air Gunnery School at Dalcross, outside Inverness, for a three month course. So, by the time I got there it was just before Christmas, I think. Anyway, we went there and did the usual training on Ansons like we all did, you know, shooting and all the rest of it and it was quite a, I earned a bob or two there because we used to do skeet shooting. Clay, clay shooting -
GR: Yeah. Clay pigeon shooting.
HHB: We always used to put a bob in and I was quite good at it. I don’t know why but I was so I always used to earn a bob or two.
1049
GR: A little bit extra.
HHB: I got friendly with a WREN there and used to go to Inverness to see her and one day I saw the gunnery instructor there. So, the next day at lectures he was saying, ‘And don’t get sitting in the YM looking all dewey eyed at the girl with you,’ he said. ‘You need to be air gunners.’ Knowing that he meant me. Anyway, I passed out the course and went on leave. I got a telegram, ‘Report back.’ Went back. Being sent overseas. Oh God.
GR: Straight away.
HHB: Yeah. So what I got I got kitted out. I got a fortnight’s leave and the day after had to report to 5 PDC, Personnel Despatch Centre at Blackpool up there. You were just hanging about till I got the boat out from Liverpool. Didn’t know where we was going although the rumour was Cairo. We set off on this boat and found that we found out we were being sent out to the Middle East. Cairo. Got to Cairo. Landed at Port at Suez and was there for two or three days in tents and that was an experience because the people who’d been in these tents before us had been a load of Indian troops and their health habits weren’t very good. So we had quite a few -
GR: I can imagine.
HHB: In the sand.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Course we were only sleeping on sand on ground sheet. Anyway, eventually we all eventually got sent up to Cairo.
GR: Did you have any inclination, ‘cause obviously you’d joined you were an air gunner.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And obviously the natural progression would have been Bomber Command in England did you have any idea where you were going or -
HHB: No. No.
GR: What was going to happen to you?
HHB: No.
GR: No.
HHB: We were sent from, we got off the boat at Suez. We went up to Cairo. That was another PDC and there we just milled around waiting to be posted to OTU and I was sent to 76 OTU in Palestine at Aqir which was training for bombers. So, I finished up there. So we got on the train from Cairo across the Sinai Desert up. That was a journey on its own as well and that’s where my [?] big things they were [?]and were always something difficult to pack.
GR: Right.
HHB: So I said I’m fed up with this blooming thing. So, somebody said, ‘Don’t you want it.’ ‘Not really.’ The next minute it went out the window. It’s in the middle of the Sinai Desert somewhere. Anyway, we carried up to Palestine and we were in a PDC there and it was from there we sent to Aqir and there we got crewed up. Just went out one day. We didn’t have a hangar to go in. Just [parade] milled around the parade ground, get crewed up, you know. So I didn’t know what to do and all of a sudden this chap comes to me, ‘Have you got a crew?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Come on then I’ve got one, I’m a pilot’ So, we went and he was a South African Van der [Valt]. So we had a chat and he said, ‘Do you want to come, join me?’ So that’s how I joined him and then we got a navigator, bomb aimer and what have you and that was it. We started to fly doing our training but also flying on Wellingtons, you know.
GR: Right.
HHB: And that was interesting. Of course I flew Wellingtons of course we just had one that was going on a six or seven hour cross country flight and we’d only be air borne about forty minutes. I’m sitting in the rear turret and I thought, ‘Am I seeing things?’ Sparks come by and then bits of something was flying by, rings and pieces. I said, ‘Is the port engine alright skip?’ He said, ‘We’re just looking at it.’ I said, ‘Well it looks like it falling to pieces. There’s bits flying off it.’ So we feathered it and we had to turn back so but by then the starboard engine started perform so we decided to land at Lydda. So we called up, got clearance to land, coming in it was a Liberator, heavy con unit [ydda was and this Liberator was cutting out so we had to stagger around in the air on this one good engine. Well this happened twice.
GR: God.
HHB: And the third time, the second time of course, the engine, the starboard engine just packed up so we finished up in a big heap on the desert.
GR: Crash landed.
HHB: Crash landed but fortunately we was alright except the wireless operator. A chap named [Stoner] The wireless operator’s table with his equipment on it collapsed and he’d broken his leg so we lost, lost him but there was another one there without a crew so we got him. Chap named Shelby from Halifax. So we went, the MO called us in. He said, ‘Everybody alright? Anyone banged their head?’ Well I had but I didn’t say yes. So he said, ‘Alright then. Off you go then.’ So that was it.
GR: That was it.
HHB: That was it and the next, that night we were flying again on a night trip.
GR: On Wellingtons again.
HHB: On Wellingtons again.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Again.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Yeah. The story is that that Wellington that we crashed in had just come back from a seven hundred hour inspection. Major inspection. So somebody had slipped up there.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, we staggered on through that and then we got leave in, well we went to Alexandria because I was friendly with a chap named Pearson and he was engaged to a girl in, she was a South African girl but living in Egypt and we went to their house and billeted there for our leave and then we came back again and then we were sent down to [Aberswayo] which was a con unit, heavy con unit for Liberators. So we did about a month course there and of course with being a South African crew half the crew were South African. The pilot, navigator and flight engineer were South Africans. We hadn’t got a beam gunner then. And the rest of the crew, bomb aimer, two gunners and a wireless operator were RAF. Anyway, we got sent to South African Air Force base depot at [El Marsi] just outside Cairo and there we stopped there then waiting for a posting to a squadron which eventually came about the end of September time and sometime in September 1944 and bundled on to a Dakota as far as to about Tunis and then we got American Air Force Commando aircraft flying across to Bari and from Bari we went to what they called the advanced SAF base depot at Bari waiting to be posted to a squadron.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And about October time, beginning of October time, we went to 31 SAF squadron based at Fuji, well [Saloni] just outside Foggia, and that’s where we started to fly our ops.
GR: Yeah. How many was on the Liberator? What was the full –
HHB: There was eight crew. There was -
GR: Eight crew.
HHB: Pilot, flight engineer and navigator, mid upper gunner, rear gunner, bomb aimer, beam gunner.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So, but we didn’t get the beam gunner till we got to the squadron.
GR: Right.
HHB: And all of a sudden this young lad, forget his name now, it’s in the logbook, he rolled up. He was a warrant officer and the South Africans when they were posted to a squadron they were immediately made up to warrant officers.
GR: Right. So were you all flight sergeants at the time.
HHB: Sergeants then, we were.
GR: Sergeants.
HHB: And he come straight from gunnery school as a, they didn’t even go through OTU and con unit. So, anyway, he was a warrant officer so there we were with this, but we started flying various ops, you know. Various supply drops, bombing raids.
GR: What was your first operation Bill?
HHB: Do you want to look at the logbook.
GR: Yeah I’ll just pause it for a sec.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So we’re just having a look at Bill’s logbook and yeah your first operation, I’m just looking there, 14th November.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: 1944 yeah. Supply drop to Yugoslavia. What was that like? I mean -
HHB: Well, you know, we was all a bit, the skip had already done his second pilot trip to know what was what, like. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. So, yeah, just looking at the logbook. Yeah, and the first, the first one was a supply drop. Did you know it was a supply drop or did you think -
HHB: Oh yes we’d got supplies in the big canisters in the fuselage.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And we were looking for a, I haven’t got it there but we had a certain area to go to and look for the area to go to and look for this, perhaps a cross or a triangle or something in flames or lights on the ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And then they’d signal us you know somewhere to drop. They were dropped by parachute, you know
GR: Yes.
HHB: And er yes that was, that was the first one. They’d break us in gently you see.
GR: Yes.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And just looking at the logbook. Yeah, there was a couple of supply drops.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And then the, I think your third operation.
HHB: Yeah. Bombing.
GR: Was bombing some German troop concentrations. So that was the first bombing run.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So what was that like, Bill?
HHB: Well it was, it’s a long time ago now.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: It was just another trip like, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Nothing much exciting happened on it. This one to [Sarajevo].
GR: Yeah. So -
HHB: So that was, that was, bomb doors froze up so we couldn’t drop the bombs.
GR: So the bomb doors froze -
HHB: Yeah, we was.
GR: Closed.
HHB: Twenty thousand feet, you see.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And yeah, they froze up. So, we had to drop the bombs, come down and drop the bombs in the sea as I say.
GR: And return to base.
HHB: Jettison in the sea [heavy light flak and that at Sarajevo]
GR: Flak. Yeah.
HHB: We went there in daytime as well with these.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But most of the raids at this time were the first one was -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A daylight one that one.
GR: So most of the operations were at night but then your first daylight operation 19th of November.
HHB: November.
GR: 1944.
HHB: Yeah. That was River Bridge in Yugoslavia.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I think the Germans were retreating through Yugoslavia.
GR: Yes.
HHB: And they wanted this bridge cutting. I don’t know whether we hit it or not. I can’t remember now. Probably missed it. So, I carried on like this until I finished my tour which was just before VE day.
GR: And I think I’ve seen there’s a total, total -
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Of thirty -
HHB: Eight or nine or something
GR: Thirty seven operations. We’re just going back.
HHB: Yeah there’s one, no, should be this one here.
GR: Should be, should be here Bill. Thirty three. That’s March.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And then, yeah, there’s one in April there.
HHB: Yeah. Thirty six, thirty seven. Oh it’s there thirty seven.
GR: Yeah. So your last operation was on the 5th of April.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Well your tour, it probably wasn’t the last operation by the squadron but certainly your tour -
HHB: Yeah. My tour, yeah.
GR: Which was thirty seven operations so I mean over those thirty seven operations any close calls or was it a relatively -
HHB: The usual. We got trapped in searchlights over the [Rhone] one day. A couple of fighters we saw and I’ve got it somewhere. Got it somewhere
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Couple, couple of fighters we saw -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But we evaded them when we saw.
GR: Yeah. Did the squadron suffer many casualties while you were there?
HHB: No. No, not a lot.
GR: No.
HHB: No. Not a lot. We had one or two. They suffered a lot just before I joined them because they were on the Warsaw raid.
GR: Yes.
HHB: And they lost quite heavy then and then after that just before I joined them and this is why we went and then they sent aircraft up to drop supplies in Northern Italy to the Italian partisans and it was in the mountains and they’d got to get in to this valley to drop them. Of course if you dropped them too high they just floated away you see. You’d got to get down.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A lot of these places were in valleys so you’d got to get down to about six or seven hundred feet just or to get just the height for the parachute to open.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Otherwise they floated away.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And when we got back they were in radio contact. When we got back they’d tell us whether it was a good drop or not. So they sent them to this Northern Italy and we lost six that night.
GR: God.
HHB: One has never been found. They found all the others crashed in the mountains but this one that’s never been found and one of the, the bomb aimer was a New Zealander and I had a letter from his, his daughter. She lives in, I can’t think off-hand. Anyway -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway she [that was that] an advert anyone on 31 squadron, used to be a series on the television, comrades, old comrades to get in touch.
GR: Yeah. Yes.
HHB: And this one anyone on 31 SAF squadron so I rang it and it was her husband [and I know] cause he left, he was one of the crews that we’d gone to replace. He’d died just a week or so before us -
GR: You got there.
HHB: We got there. So [I’m still in touch?] every Christmas still get a card from her I send one to her you know but she had a plaque laid, made and laid in this village near where we were dropping the supplies.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And it’s mounted there in English and in Italian. The crews name and all the -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he was, he was actually a New Zealander but her mother was English. She’d married, married him and she was born, she was, her mother was conceiving while he was on ops.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he was killed before she was born.
GR: That’s right.
HHB: So that was why she was trying to find out anything about him.
GR: Trying to find anything about it all so -
HHB: So we didn’t, but um -
GR: When you were doing supply drops how many aircraft were flying in the squadron.
HHB: Well, there’d perhaps be -
GR: Roughly. You know, just -
HHB: Eight, ten.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But there was a group you see. The whole group went.
GR: Ah.
HHB: It was 205 group.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And that was the heavy bomber squadron and that came all the way up through the desert.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I’ve got a book there, “Bombers Over Sand and Snow”. It’s all about 205 group coming up from the start of the war up through Egypt and into Italy.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So this was 37 squadron, 45 squadron. There was quite a group of -
GR: Yeah. So, 205 group.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Would do.
HHB: But we were the only ones, on our squadron was 31 squadron South African and 34 South African. We were the only ones on that group with Liberators. The others were still on Wellingtons.
GR: Right.
HHB: But by January ‘45 they’d all converted to Liberators.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But so on these trips sometimes there was Liberators and Wellingtons as well. Yeah. And also on the unit was an American squadron, whatever they called them, the fortresses.
GR: The B17s. Yeah the B17s. Flying Fortresses.
HHB: So [right Mick] so we er, but we had quite a lot of activity during the daytime. We were going up at night. Well, all we was landing on was pierced steel planking.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: For runways and as the weather deteriorated and in ’44, ‘45 at that time was the worst winter in living memory in Italy. Snow, rain, everywhere was muddied up. We wasn’t in, all we lived in was tents. We didn’t live in huts. It was tents. Eight man tents. But eventually a friend of mine, Shorty Pearson, we were both on the same squadron, we got a small two men tent which was better but there was no room in it.
GR: No.
HHB: I mean, we eventually to sleep on we were sleeping on the floor or on the ground sheets you know but eventually we got the bomb tails when the bombs came the tails were protected by a, they were like a small, looked like a stool about [eighteen] inches high.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And about a foot square.
GR: And that was protecting the fins on the bombs.
HHB: Protecting the fins, yeah. So we eventually collected enough of them to make a bed which only left a narrow gap in between but at least we was off the floor.
GR: Incredible.
HHB: So, but so -
GR: So -
HHB: What happened, what I was going to say was that in the January time we were starting the Americans didn’t want the Libs there cause they were breaking the runways up so we all had to move off to [Foggamin] to a concrete runway.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: The main airfield at Foggia. So after one raid I haven’t got it in my book but after one trip we had to land there and they picked us up in lorries and took us back to base
GR: Right.
HHB: And of course that was tough on the ground staff having to service the aircraft out, you know, there and all the equipment. Anyway, we managed for a few weeks and er, till the, till the place had dried out a bit you know and it was fit for us to, for the Liberator cause they were breaking up the runways.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the perimeter track was all hard core. There was nothing permanent, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the conditions there were only two, three buildings on, on, on the squadron. Well there was four actually, buildings. One was the church which was wooden, one was the sergeant’s mess and the airmen’s mess, the officer’s mess and the ops room and one of the other farm buildings was used as a parachute section and that was it. The rest of us were all in, under canvas
HHB: Yeah.
GR: All through the winter.
GR: ‘Cause Foggia was a big base wasn’t it?
HHB: Yes, there was -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: In that area I think there was eight airfields around Foggia.
GR: Right.
HHB: And you’d be sitting there and you’d hear a boom and you’d see a big cloud and oh another Liberator crashed or gone up, you know. You heard a big bang. That was a Wellington, another Wellington gone up. Yeah. But of course we were losing a lot to accidents, you know.
GR: Yeah. Probably more to accidents than -
HHB: Probably.
GR: Yeah, than fighters and -
HHB: Anyway, thinking about the squadron you’d be lying there on your bed and also the Americans, the South Africans had army ranks they weren’t pilot officer and that they were second lieutenants, lieutenants, captains.
GR: Right.
HHB: And warrant officer. The station warrant officer was a sergeant major. He’d be out there and you’d hear, ‘Wakey wakey. Following crews. Ops room half an hour.’ Look at your watch, 5 o’clock.
GR: Oh.
HHB: Oh no. And you’d lie there hoping he didn’t call your name out and you’d hear him say Captain van der [Valt]. Oh God that’s us. Got to get up and so it was down to the ops room and while we were in the ops room and while we were in the ops room getting briefed and that the cooks would be getting a breakfast of sorts, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Then we’d go and have breakfast and take off would be about two or three hours later, you know. Yeah used to lie there. The electricity supply was the [eight wire] all the way through the camp and we used to just wrap a piece around and take a lead to your place and try and hope it was waterproof. Half the time you know it would go on and go off of course, you know.
GR: What was the food supply like in Italy cause obviously back in England it was quite severe rationing.
HHB: Yeah well we was rationed there. I mean it was corned beef with everything.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: One day I went in the mess and this, ‘Oh fried fish.’ Opened it up. It was a piece of bully beef in batter.
GR: Bully beef in batter.
HHB: Yeah and the coffee, they had coffee but that was in a big urn and you -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Used to dip your mug in, you know.
GR: And drink it.
HHB: ‘Cause it was, what annoyed us with the Americans there they got a little portable generator. Every tent had got these little portable generator putt putts as they were called, they actually had one on the Liberator as alternative power supply. When they landed you switched it on, you know and this was so you got these on little stands and every tent had got one and they just used to start it up. Lights. Yeah.
GR: So definitely the RAF was
HHB: They got, they got –
GR: Poor relations to the Americans.
HHB: Yeah. They got, they got duck boards all over the place. Yeah. And they’d even got a cinema allowed us, certain nights, to go to the cinema but –
GR: Oh right.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: What happened at the end of tour? Did you stay in Italy or –
HHB: No. After the end of tour I got sent back up to Naples which was a closure of a PDC for despatching people.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I got put on a ship back to Suez and on the way back VE day came in May so by the time I got to Cairo back to [El Marsa] again which was another Cairo air force dump it was VE night.
GR: VE night. Yeah.
HHB: And that night, that day, a lot of WAAFs had just arrived. The first big load of WAAFs to come out I think and they were in this camp as well but that was all [laughs] wired off you know and so it was about one hundred and twelve degrees there that night. Cor it was hot. Anyway, I stopped there for a while until I got my posting home. I suppose, of course I was young and they got me back to retrain me you see but they didn’t realise there was a class B man who was going to get released anyway.
GR: Right.
HHB: I didn’t know this. Anyway, I got home and went to Catterick, Catterick RAF camp and that was a despatch centre, you know. Went and had an interview
GR: Yeah.
HHF: And decided, they sent me to Cranwell on a signals course. Being telecoms I suppose they thought I’d know all about it you see.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HHB: So I went there and just, can’t say that, we learned a lot about radio and all that and how to operate the VH direction finder. Anyway eventually got posted from there again, abroad. Up to Blackpool again 5 PDC and I flew out to India.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: In a Stirling.
GR: Out to India in a Stirling.
HHB: Yes. I’ve got it here.
GR: Was there any, had victory in Japan been achieved by then or -
HHB: No. Yes. Yes.
GR: Yes oh yes so there was no possibilities of them sending you out to the Far East.
HHB: [] sent to India. Stradishall to Castel Benito seven hours. Castel Benito to Cairo West, five hours. Cairo West to [?] or something, five hours.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Mayapur in India five hours. Mayapur to Pune four hours. Pune to [arro] something.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And then -
GR: And so a long trek to India.
HHB: Yes and I went right down there and eventually got down there and eventually were at a place called [Momatagama] in Ceylon.
GR: In Ceylon.
HHB: Just below Kandy. Actually it was Kandy airstrip. A little airstrip in the middle of nowhere.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the radio set was a little TR9 which was something they had pre-war, you know. Anyway, and all they did there was sit in flying control and you’d open up 6 o’clock till two or two till six, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And people would call up and, you know, planes would land, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: At one time it was very busy when Kandy had been very busy when Kandy was the Headquarters for SEAC.
GR: Yes. South East Asia Command. Yes.
HHB: Yeah, but it was very quiet. There was, passed one aircraft a week sometimes. Lovely sitting there it was, doing nothing and then I got posted to a place called Mowathagama which was, this airstrip was called Mowathagama.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I went from there to [Cowgla] so I flew down there in a little um Expediator.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: An American two engine -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Passenger plane. Twenty five, fifty minutes to [?], [?] to Mowathagama forty five minutes. To [Cowgla] and that was in Ceylon.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I went there and got put on a Liberator direction finder and you’d sit there on the beach. Lovely sand. Blue, blue sea. Palm trees.
GR: Warm weather.
HHB: Ooh.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And somebody’d call up ‘bearing,’ so you’d give them a bearing, you know, and not very often. Only two or three times while I was there and so that was -
GR: Around about February ‘46.
HHB: No, I was there then.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Yeah. It was February.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: ‘46 I went there and I as I say sat on the beach doing nothing. Six till two, two till six. The early shift was long but that one wasn’t and when we wasn’t flying we used to go swimming. A load of, after the war the landmines, the mines they’d got, the sea mines, they took them and blew space in the rocks for swimming pool.
GR: Right.
HHB: So that was -
GR: Good use of the mines.
HHB: Yeah. Swimming up there. And so I was there until March and one day I got a call to go to the adjutant’s office. Knocked on the door and went in. ‘Ah yes.’ He said, ‘Your class B release has come through.’ Well that was the first I knew about it. So he said, ‘Do you want it? Go outside and think about it.’ So, went outside, shut the door, knocked the door and went in and said, ‘Yes.’ So, good, I came out on B but the best bit of it was coming home. I got about, the records for about twenty five other airmen. And he said, ‘Here you are. Look after these’ and you’ll be starting from wherever it was now going up to Pune eventually to fly back home from Pune.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I got these records all the time, had to look after them, a pile -
GR: A great big pile of records.
HHB: A lot of these people I mean I was only twenty one then, you know these were time expired, been out there five years.
GR: Five years.
HHB: Yeah and one of them was a sergeant getting demobbed and he was most upset. Of course he’d got no family back home.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he’d been in air force all his life and he was coming home. He was really upset he was but all the others, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: They were looking forward to it so the last I saw of them we went to Hednesford. There we went through the demob thing and the suits and all.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Whatever you had. I had the sports jacket and flannels and mac and shoes and shirt and what have you and we got no money then but I found a postal order. I think it was for a pound that the unit had been on when I was in telecoms. Post office engineering sent to me in Italy so I went and cashed this thing so four or five of us went out that night on this pound and had a drink and it lasted -
GR: Out on the town with a pound.
HHB: Yeah. We drank, drank what we could out of it. I mean in them days six shilling for a pint.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HHB: So, the last I saw of them I jumped off the truck at Stafford station ‘cause that was the station they took us to. They went on the train and I picked my bags up and walked home. Course I lived in Stafford at the time.
GR: And that was it. You were out of the RAF.
HHB: Out the RAF. Yeah.
GR: When I came back I flew from Pune to Barakpur. Barakpur to [Shiboor, Shiboor] to Lydda, Palestine, Lydda
GR: Yeah.
HHB: To Castel where we crashed, Lydda. Lydda to Castel Benito.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Castel Benito to Waterbeach.
GR: Waterbeach.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So coming home, a total of thirty one hours -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Flying time.
GR: Yeah, that was in a Liberator.
HHB: in a Liberator.
GR: And the flight engineer, I said to the flight, you know, I said I was on Libs, you know.
HHB: Oh he said do you want to test the undercarriage for me. Course when you went in a Lib the tricycle undercarriage always checked the nose wheel.
GR: Yes.
HHB: ;Cause it didn’t always lock in position. Had to go down and see a little red button there and he said, I said, ‘No, I’ve done it. I know what’s going to happen when I get down there and especially over these places, desert and that, that’ll be sand’ -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Sandpaper on your face. I said, ‘No. Thank you very much. I’m not doing that.’ That was another job for the air gunner by the way. When we came in to land in a Lib you always had to come out the turret because it was too heavy, the tricycle, the undercarriage would be up and down.
GR: Up and down yes.
HHB: It would hit the ground if you were in there so we had to come out of there to the beam position and that was our landing position.
GR: Landing position, yeah.
HHB: But when you landed you had to open the hatch and the pilot was on the port side. You had to get the Aldiss lamp and shine it up, ‘Up a bit. Hold it there,’ So he could see the edge of the perimeter track. Course the landing lights were shining too far in -
GR: Too far in front.
HHB: So you had to sit there with all the mud and muck coming into your face. Of course they were muddy, muddy ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Getting splattered yeah. You were dirty when you got out, you know. Yeah. And that was your job. You had to check the two red lugs come down on the undercarriage, you had to make sure -
GR: That they were down.
HHB: They were down and checked the front. I never did the one on ops but I couldn’t get down the bomb bay.
GR: No cause you’d be -
HHB: Cause with the kit on. The bomb bay was only about -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: [eighteen] inches wide, if that. I couldn’t get through them without taking your clothes off you know your harness, Mae West.
GR: Couldn’t’ do that.
HHB: And all that. Which you didn’t. So that was my time in the air force.
GR: Your time in the air force. What happened after the war? Did you -
HHB: I went back to Telecoms
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I stopped there forty eight years.
GR: Forty eight years.
HHB: Forty eight years in total. I had forty six years as Post Office Telephones and two years as British Telecoms
GR: Two years as British Telecom. Yeah.
HHB: Yeah but by then it wasn’t the same. The spirit had gone out of it. I mean I’ve stood in manholes when I was a jointer before I got promotion and that, like this, water up to here holding the joint up in the air so it didn’t get wet.
GR: Can you imagine that now with health and safety?
HHB: I’ve worked, I’ve worked up poles you know trying to plumb cables up. I mean -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Now, they’ve got gas blow lamps but they, they were paraffin.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Or petrol and they’d go cold in the middle of wiping a joint the lamp would go out you know, especially if it was paraffin it would go cold. You’d have to chuck it down and get another one up, you know.
GR: Did you actually go back to exactly the same job that you’d left?
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Straight after the war. Yeah.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So they, in theory your job was kept open. There was a vacancy there.
HHB: There was a lot of newcomers there that I didn’t know they were.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Ex-servicemen, they took a lot of ex-servicemen on. Well -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Most of them were. Yes, I went back there and I stopped at Stafford for a while but by then I got in touch with my mother ‘cause she was in Nottingham.
GR: Right.
HHB: So, actually I got in touch with her during the war. Course she realised I would be going up and she made great efforts to locate us. Anyway, so I went back to Stafford. I came to Nottingham in ‘46 and stopped in Nottingham all the time. Started off as a cable jointer. Actually while I was in Italy I got a letter from the post office saying I’d been promoted to USW unestablished civil service, it was a civil service then. You got established.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I’d done five year established I’d done five years, skilled workmen that was so of course when I came that was it so of course eventually over the years I eventually got promoted to assistant executive engineer and that was underground maintenance. A group of about eighty men.
GR: Did you see, obviously you said you saw your mum.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: After the war?
HHB: Yes. I saw her before the war.
GR: Yes. Did you see your dad after the war or -
HHB: Yeah, I saw my dad.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: He still lived in Stoke he did.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: He eventually got married again.
GR: Yeah. But you saw them both.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So even though they were separated.
HHB: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: Oh that’s good.
HHB: My father died in 1962.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: My mother died 1992. Something like that.
GR: 1992 yeah. Oh that’s good.
HHB: So, that was it.
GR: Thank you Bill that was excellent. That was very, very interesting thank you.
HHB: We can nip down and have a pint now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Bailey was born in Stafford. After finishing school he went to work for the Post Office Telephones service as a telegram boy. He decided to join the Royal Air Force and began training as a rear gunner at RAF Dalcross. He joined 31 Squadron of 205 Group. He was then posted overseas to Egypt, Palestine and Italy. He and his crew undertook supply drops to Yugoslavia and to partisan groups in Italy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-01
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:48:23 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABaileyHH160501
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
South African Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Sarajevo
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Great Britain
Italy
Italy--Bari
Italy--Foggia
North Africa
India
India--Pune
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
31 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
B-24
crash
crewing up
forced landing
ground personnel
Initial Training Wing
medical officer
memorial
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Aqir
RAF Bridlington
RAF Dalcross
recruitment
Resistance
training
Wellington
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Airline crew travels
Description
An account of the resource
Top left - Stephen Dawson in airline uniform and Joy Dawson in a dress in the garden of a two story house. Captioned 'in uniform England'.
Top right - Stephen Dawson in swimming trunks sitting in a cane chair by a table under and awning in front of a single story building. Captioned 'out of everything Cairo'.
Centre - garden with table and chairs bottom right and single story building with steep pitched roof in the background. In the foreground a picket fence, and a caption 'me' with arrow to shadow bottom left. Captioned 'Bar-B-Q, Johannesburg'.
Bottom left and bottom right - two images of the same group of men sitting round a table on a beach with thatched single story building in the background. Captioned 'Taken by' on the left 'Me' on the right 'Ted'.
Right page.
Top - two men and two women in swimwear sitting on grass in front of a building. Captioned 'The Lido, Steve, Cookie, Mary, Steve, Jo'burg'.
Middle left - two men lying down facing camera either side of three women sitting in a garden.
Middle right - three women and a man lying in a garden. Left hand women is holding a dog.
Captioned for both photographs 'Old friends at home'.
Bottom - Stephen Dawson in the cockpit of an aircraft looking backwards with control yoke in front of him. Captioned 'In the office of an Avro York'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Nine b/w photographs mounted on two album pages.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PDawsonSR16010028, PDawsonSR16010029, PDawsonSR16010030, PDawsonSR16010031, PDawsonSR16010032, PDawsonSR16010033, PDawsonSR16010034, PDawsonSR16010035, PDawsonSR16010036, PDawsonSR16010037
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
South Africa
South Africa--Johannesburg
North Africa
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/81/7914/LGodfreyCR1281391v10001.2.pdf
2bb4feee369606f050f7e0e0563b6922
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Godfrey, Charles Randall
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
64 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Charles Randall Godfrey DFC (b. 1921, 146099, Royal Air Force) and consists of his logbook and operational notes, items of memorabilia, association memberships, personnel documentation, medals and photographs. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron. He flew as a wireless operator in the crew of Squadron Leader Ian Willoughby Bazalgette VC.
The collection has has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Charles Godfrey and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Godfrey, CR
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-18
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Charles Godfey's observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LGodfreyCR1281391v10001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Egypt
France
Libya
Greece
Germany
Gibraltar
Great Britain
Netherlands
Scotland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium--Haine-Saint-Pierre
Egypt--Alexandria
Egypt--Cairo
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
Egypt--Marsá Maṭrūḥ
Egypt--Tall al-Ḍabʻah
England--Berkshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cumbria
England--Devon
England--Gloucestershire
England--Hampshire
England--Kent
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Northumberland
England--Oxfordshire
England--Rutland
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
England--Worcestershire
England--Yorkshire
France--Angers
France--Caen
France--Creil
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Nucourt
France--Rennes
Germany--Wiesbaden
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dorsten
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düren (Cologne)
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Osterfeld
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Troisdorf
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Wesseling
Greece--Ērakleion
Greece--Piraeus
Libya--Darnah
Libya--Tobruk
Netherlands--Hasselt
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Scotland--Moray
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
England--Cornwall (County)
North Africa
Libya--Banghāzī
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Libya--Gazala
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1942-03-23
1942-06-10
1942-06-11
1942-06-12
1942-06-13
1942-06-14
1942-06-15
1942-06-16
1942-06-17
1942-06-18
1942-06-19
1942-06-20
1942-06-22
1942-06-23
1942-06-24
1942-06-25
1942-06-26
1942-06-28
1942-06-29
1942-07-02
1942-07-03
1942-07-05
1942-07-08
1942-07-09
1942-07-10
1942-07-12
1942-07-13
1942-07-15
1942-07-16
1942-07-17
1942-07-19
1942-07-20
1942-07-25
1942-07-26
1942-07-28
1942-07-29
1942-07-31
1942-08-01
1942-08-06
1942-08-07
1942-08-08
1942-08-09
1942-08-14
1942-08-15
1942-08-16
1942-08-17
1942-08-18
1942-08-19
1942-08-21
1942-08-22
1942-08-23
1942-08-24
1942-08-25
1942-08-26
1942-08-27
1942-08-28
1942-08-29
1942-08-30
1942-08-31
1942-09-01
1942-09-03
1942-09-05
1942-09-06
1942-09-08
1942-09-09
1944-05-06
1944-05-08
1944-05-12
1944-05-13
1944-05-27
1944-05-28
1944-05-29
1944-06-05
1944-06-07
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-07-07
1944-07-09
1944-07-10
1944-07-14
1944-07-15
1944-07-16
1944-07-18
1944-07-19
1944-07-20
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-08-01
1944-08-04
1944-11-17
1944-11-18
1944-12-04
1944-12-06
1944-12-07
1944-12-12
1944-12-15
1944-12-18
1944-12-24
1944-12-28
1944-12-29
1945-01-01
1945-01-02
1945-01-05
1945-01-07
1945-01-08
1945-01-23
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-04
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-18
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
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1944-08-03
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Pilot Officer Godfrey from 3 of February 1941 to 25 of September 1945 detailing training schedule, instructional duties and operations flown. Aircraft flown were Dominie, Proctor, Wellington, Hampden, Anson, Defiant, Martinet, Stirling, Lancaster, C-47 and Oxford. He was stationed at RAF Manby, RAF Bassingbourn, RAF Harwell, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Downham Market, RAF Hemswell, RAF Wittering, RAF Abingdon, RAF Upper- Heyford, RAF Upwood, RAF Gillingham, RAF Cranwell, RAF Melton Mowbray, RAF Church Fenton, RAF Market Drayton, RAF Waddington, RAF Upavon, RAF Sywell, RAF Carlisle, RAF Linton-On-Ouse, RAF Newbury, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Brize Norton, RAF Exeter, RAF Andover, RAF Hampstead Norris, RAF Hythe, RAF Gibraltar, RAF St Eval, RAF El Dabba, RAF Shaluffa, RAF Abu Sueir, RAF Almaza, RAF Blyton, RAF Ingham, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Leeming, RAF Acklington, RAF Middleton St. George, RAF Newmarket, RAF Moreton-in-Marsh, RAF Leconfield, RAF Skipton-on-Swale, RAF Wyton, RAF Warboys, RAF Westcott, RAF Gravely and RAF Worcester. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron to targets in Belgium, France and Germany. Targets included: Heraklion, Piraeus, Derna, Tamimi, Benghazi Harbour, Gazala, Mersa Matruh, Ras El Shaqiq, El Daba, Tobruk, Fuqa, Quatafiya, Düren, Munster, Mantes- Gassicourt rail yards, Haine St. Pierre rail yards, Hasselt rail yards, Rennes, Angers rail yards, Caen, Ravigny rail yards, Nucourt, Wesseling oil refineries, L’Hey, Kiel, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Notre Dame, Trossy St. Maximin, Karlsruhe, Merseburg, Essen, Ludwigshafen, Duisburg, Dusseldorf, Mönchengladbach, Troisdorf, Dortmund, Nuremberg, Hannover, Munich, Gelsenkirchen, Mainz, Wiesbaden, Osterfeld, Kleve, Wanne- Eickel, Chemnitz, Wesel, Worms, Hemmingstedt, Dorsten, Bottrop, Osnabruck, Berchtesgaden, Ypenburg and Rotterdam. Notable events are that Charles Godfrey undertook a search and rescue operation in a Defiant and during the operation to Trossy St Maximin 4 August 1944 his aircraft, Lancaster ND811, was brought down by anti-aircraft fire. Whilst he survived and evaded, his pilot, Ian Willoughby Bazalgette was awarded the Posthumous Victoria Cross. The hand written notes added to the end of the log book give a description to the crash, and his attempts to evade capture. Pilot Officer Godfrey also took part in Operation Manna, Operation Exodus and Operation Dodge.
11 OTU
15 OTU
20 OTU
37 Squadron
635 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Bombing of Trossy St Maximin (3 August 1944)
C-47
Cook’s tour
Defiant
Dominie
evading
Hampden
killed in action
Lancaster
Martinet
missing in action
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
Proctor
RAF Abingdon
RAF Andover
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Blyton
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Carlisle
RAF Church Fenton
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Cranwell
RAF Downham Market
RAF Graveley
RAF Hampstead Norris
RAF Harwell
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF Leconfield
RAF Leeming
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Manby
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Melton Mowbray
RAF Middleton St George
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Newmarket
RAF Skipton on Swale
RAF St Eval
RAF Sywell
RAF Upavon
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Waddington
RAF Warboys
RAF Westcott
RAF Wittering
RAF Wyton
shot down
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Victoria Cross
Wellington
wireless operator
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Egypt--Cairo
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Cairo [place]
al-Qāhirah; Caire; Caireo; El Caire; El Cairo; El Cairu; Horad Kair; Il Cairo; Ḳahir; Káhira; Kahirah; Kair; Kairo; Keiro; Le Caire; Lo Cayiro; Lo Quèro; O Caire; O Cairo; Qahirä; Qāhirah
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An account of the resource
This page is an entry point for a place. This heading is also used for: RAF Heliopolis; RAF Almaza. Please use the links below to see all relevant documents available in the Archive.
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/483/8366/PBullockWEJ1601.1.jpg
e627ecce44c4059c1c2fa2c19bc04d9e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/483/8366/ABullockWEJ151030.1.mp3
bd718c14898350813bae5fe77b18d09f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bullock, William
William Edward James Bullock
W E J Bullock
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Bullock, WEJ
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant William Bullock (1916 - 2017, 566069 Royal Air Force) and a memoir. He served in Egypt and Iraq before serving as an engineering officer at RAF East Kirkby and Coningsby.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by William Bullock and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles [AH]. The interviewee is William Bullock [WB]. The interview is taking place at Mr Bullocks home in Horncastle, Lincolnshire on 30th October 2015.
[noise]
WB : What?
PH: You can start now.
WB: Well, What? I was born in Marshfield.
PH: Yeah.
WB: Yeah in Gloucestershire, September 30th 1916, That’s right. And after two or three years we moved into Bath, and eventually I got a scholarship to the secondary school, and, in 1932 I took the entrance exam for the RAF apprentices, and I got through alright. When I went to Holton as an apprentice for three years and I passed out in 1935, and went to Altarum[?]. It was an ex-naval Air Station, way back, and we kept time with the ships bell in the guard room [chuckle]. in the guard room. Anyway, in February ’37, well, we got posted to Egypt for Florin[?] Training School and when the war started we moved from Egypt to Havaneer[?] in Iraq. And in, I think it was in May, May ’41 the Iraqis were trying to get us out of their country and let the Germans in, and they surrounded the camp and they shelled us and bombed us for five days, day and night, bombs and shells. And, anyway, we gave a good account of ourselves and when we killed a lot of them, and in the end they decided to pack up and go. Then in, well, about May I came home, and I went to Cranwell on a Coastal Command Station, and anyways, was there for about eight months. Then I got moved to Wigsley which was is a Bomber Command training unit, training pilots for Lancasters and whatnot. And, ow, I think that would be May, May ’41 was it? I, I decided to take commission and I was commissioned as an engineer officer and I moved around various places. I did a year at East Kirkby as the Technical Adjutant doing all the paperwork and whatnot. And, anyway, I did a year there, and then I moved to Metheringham, 106 Squadron, and anyway I was there, they, they worked me fairly hard and the engineer, the group engineer came down and he said ‘Right, I want to move you Coningsby, to pathfinder squadrons, forty Lancasters. Do you think you can cope?’ I said: ‘I’ll do my best sir.’ He said ‘Right, get there on Monday. You can be a Flight Lieutenant on Friday.’ Anyway, I got there and I worked hard for, oh, three, four months and always kept me forty Lancasters going. And well then, of course, the war packed up. The Japs, the Germans packed init, and I moved to Strubby we were’re living in tents and we were waiting to go to Okinawa to bomb Japs. And then the Japs packed in, so we moved, I was there for a bit and then I we got moved, got posted to a unit over by Chester, 54 RUP. And I moved in, I reported in to senior officer. And I said: ‘RUP?’ He said: ‘Yeah.’ I said: ‘ Well, RUP? R U Repair Unit, P what’s planned.’ He said: ‘Oh bulldozers, excavators and that sort of stuff.’ ‘Oh, I’m an aircraft engineer, I’m going back to Strubby.’ He said: ‘You’re bloody well not. You’re gonna Singapore next Wednesday.’ [chuckle] Anyway, we got, I got a fortnight leave before I went to Singapore and in that time I did quick and got married to Mary. Dashed into Lincoln, got a licence from the Bishops, whatever-he-was. And we got married, got married on the Wednesday and on the Saturday recalled from leave and the next Wednesday Singapore [laugh]. And got out there but the unit I was with they never really did get never got off the ground because we, we were supposed to be repairing all sorts of, you know, bull- bulldozers, and excavators and all that sort of stuff [belch] but the machinery never turned up and in the end, in the end they more-or-less disbanded the outfit and they kept me on and all the airfield construction plants, masses of bulldozers and cranes and all that sort of stuff, they said: ‘Right now transfer that to Air Ministry Works Department, the civvy lot’, so I spent all the this time getting this stuff transferred. And then the unit at Hong Kong closed down and all their stuff came down to Singapore by ship. And they said: ‘You will collect it from the docks and take it up to Changi. And it was hard work. Anyway, we managed it, we got it there. And in the meantime, we were living in tents. But anyway, I did me spell there then, and oh what, I decided to relinquish my commission and come home. I weren’t all that happy, so I packed up and came home, and I went back in the ranks as a flight sergeant, and I soon became a warrant officer and I did, oh, I did a spell at Waddington and Hemswell home on and Spalding Moor, and then got moved to Germany, up at Sylt, up on the north Frisian Islands. And I broke[?] there for a couple of years, and came back and went Shrewsbury I’we did six very nice years at Shrewsbury, very nice years at Shrewsbury and then I got moved again up to Lynton-on-Ouse and blow-me-down if they didn’t send me back to Germany [laugh]. At this time we went to Cologne, just on the Zeiderhorf on the outskirts of Cologne. It was very nice and Mary came out and joined me there [sup on tea] and had a couple of very nice years in Germany. And then when we came back, where’d I go? Where’d I go from [pause] I can’t think where I came back to [pause], not sure really. Sure, I can’t remember. Turn that thing off.
[restart of recording]
WB : I can’t remember, what was it year? Anyway, in Germany, I was up at Sylt and there was six of us. It was in the Cold War time, so called. And there was six of us trained on this Enigma machine and, you know, it was quite the thing and one day I got there and they said: ‘Your best blue is, in the back of that van is one of our Enigma machines and it’s got to go headquarters at Buckleburg [?], 200 mile away.’ And they said: ‘You are taking it.’ I said: ‘Oh.’ He said: ‘Your orders are get it there and if you need this, don’t hesitate to use it.’ And they gave me a revolver and a box of ammunition. They said: ‘You have to use it, use it, but that must be got there!’ Anyway, we got it there, no bother, and coming back the following morning the battery packed up. We called into an RAF camp, they didn’t want to know us. A bit later on we met a RAF, an Army camp and called in there and said: ‘Can you help me?’. They said: ‘Yeah.’ Gave me a new battery and then a bit further on the throttle control spring on the engine broke and we couldn’t control it so and I didn’t know what to do and we came to a very nice old lady’s shop, and I said: ‘Stop.’ And I had a flash of inspiration and I went in the lady’s shop and I said: ‘I want some elastic that wide please, so she said there, and I said ‘It’s for my car.’ And we went out and wound it round and round and round these two stops for the throttle spring and we drove 200 miles on a piece of elastic. [chuckle] Anyways, that was in Sylt, then what -
PH: Bill, what, why don’t you tell the story about Old Sarum [?] when you went up with your boss and nearly clocked the cathedral?
WB: Oh yes, that was at Old Sarum. I went up flying with the boss in an open-seater aircraft and it was foggy and it was about 400 feet and the boss said: ‘I’ll come down to 400 feet and we’ll see if we can follow the railway back down to the town’. And we were down there in the fog and I looked and I was I was ‘Look! Look!’ and we were heading straight for the cathedral. The spire was sticking out through the fog and we were going straight for it, and we managed, and somehow we missed it. That was, that was that one. And then another time, we were flying and it, it you were in the back cockpit, you had a harness with a chain going down to the floor to hold you in, and a cable rather, and we were going along and we hit an air pocket and the plane went down and I was out! and the chain tightened and I went ‘Bomp’ and pulled me back down again. [chuckle] So that was two I’d missed.
AH: Could you, could you tell me a bit more about when you were in Iraq?
WB: Iraq?
PH : You were twenty-one, weren’t you?
WB: Yeah, yeah somewhere around there, yes, it was hot there. It was a hundred and, it got to an hundred and thirty in the summer, really hot. And when these, [unclear] and when they were bombing and shelling us, it went on day-and-night for five nights and you slept under your bed and you ‘whee’ [emphasis], you hear the head of shells going over and that one’s going for the bomb dump, and ‘whee’ and anyway we did it for five days and they packed up, and then we went on normal and we heard a different noise. And we said: ‘That’s something different’, and we looked up and there’s three German bombers coming down. And we said: ‘Where the heck have did they come from?’ And the Germans had come into Mosul, it was about a couple of hundred miles up and they came down bombing us. They came at eight in the morning, and four in the afternoon, regular as clockwork, the Germans bombing and, machine guns, anyway. We shot one or two down and in the end they, they packed up, then we followed them back to Mosul and then got them when they landed, with, with our the Hurricanes. We, we got them on the floor and they packed up, so that was peace. And, anyway decided come home. And –
PH: You actually popped a few shots with your gun didn’t you?
WB: Yes. There was a man diving at me with his plane and I managed to get me Lewis loose gun on him, but he didn’t hit me and I didn’t hit him. And we came home and [sup of tea] [loud thump] we came down, we were in Bombay for a couple of weeks waiting for a ship and then we came over to Mombasa and then we came round to Durban, and we had a couple of, eight, weeks in Durban living out in tents on the runway and then we got down to Cape Town and I managed to get ashore and go up Table Mountain. And you go halfway up in the bus to the land and then you got a cable railway for a mile [shudder]. And we got up there, and had a walk round, that was very good. And coming home, we got up to Lagos and I’m afraid I went down with Malaria, and I was in the ships hospital for about a couple of weeks with very, very bad malaria. Didn’t do me any good. And eventually we got home.
PH: Weren’t they going to chuck you overboard?
WB: Well, yes. They, I, I, I met the orderly who dealt with me sometime, I met him in Boston. And he said: ‘When you came in’, he said, ‘you were pale blue and we didn’t think you’d last the night out. So we said we’d chalk you up for over the side in the morning.’ But, anyway they treated me with MNB243 tablets, you know, anti-malaria and no doubt, they brought me round when I was still having quinine six months later to get straightened up with it. Oh.
[restart of recording]
WB: Yeah we’re in Egypt 1937 at Abusir about sixty miles away from Cairo up near the Suez Canal and we had sand yachts there and we used to have races out in the desert. And in ’37 they decided to see if they could get to Cairo. And there were seven yachts and twelve men and a dog and we set off from Abusir and we went across the desert for five days heading for Heliopolis, just outside Cairo, and we got there alright and the, the station commander landed one day, he said: ‘Where are you on the map?’ They said: ‘We don’t have a map, Sir.’ He said: ‘How do know where you are?’ And the leader amongst us, he said: ‘Well, over there,’ he said ‘you can see the Suez hills.’ ‘Yes I can see them.’ he said ‘Towards the end there’s gap.’ And he said: ‘Yes.’ ‘We’re heading for that gap in the Suez Hills.’ And we hit the gap and went down, down to Cairo. Had five nice days in Cairo, out to the Pyramids and all the rest of it. And we came back another way and got back in four days, and it was quite an exciting trip, and we’re were the only people who’ve ever done it. And we had a sailing boat down on the - we were twelve miles away from the bit of lakes on the Suez Canal. We had a sailing boat there and the air was quite nice, you go sailing.
PH: What about when the CO spotted you first?
WB: Eh?
PH: When the CO spotted you arriving over the desert?
WB: Well he came down, landed, he came down more or less, you know two or three times -
PH: But, but he didn’t believe that he could see sails, could he?
WB: Oh yes, we, one night we were camped and we’d seen a plane going on down the bombing raids during the day, and anyway we bedded down for the night and we saw lots of flares going up in the distance. And some of our blokes they walked over to see these flares and there was an army camp there, just based. And they took the CO, and said: ‘What, what are you lot doing?’ And they said: ‘Well we’re the sand yachts. [unclear] He said: ‘Sand yachts! All day long I’ve seen bloody sails, and I said I knew there was no sea over there.’ And they said: ‘What, what’s all these flares?’ I said: ‘There time expired pyrotechnics, I think we’re just getting rid of them.’ So, anyway he wasn’t very pleased. [chuckle] But then anyway. He said: ‘I and been seeing all these sails and I knew full well there was no sea over there.‘ [chuckle] Oh, well anyway, we had a nice time in Cairo. Quite nice town. Err, what else? [sigh]
AH : What was is like coming back to Britain?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like coming back to Britain?
WB : Coming back home?
AH : Yeah.
WB : Cold. [laugh] Yeah. We came, we came round Durban and Cape Town, and we just came out of Cape Town and we had, there was two, two troop ships and we had a couple of naval battles with us, and a cruiser and a couple of destroyers, and we were coming out somewhere and they said [?] ‘All hands on deck, put your lifebelts. Lifebelts on.’ So we all got on deck, and one of the destroyers it came near, and there must have been a German submarine down below and he threw depths charges up. And [intake of breath] their ship came up out of the water and we thought it’s never going down. 22,000 tonnes of ship, and we thought it was never going to a stop. But anyway, the sub didn’t get us, whether we got him or not; we, we got on home [sigh]. And we came in round the Atlantic, we c. Came into Liverpool. The night we lay there [inaudible] ladies[?], we were up on a transit camp at West Kirby, outside Liverpool and we were there and they came and bombed Liverpool. [chuckle] Oh dear. [sigh] And then when we were down at Kirkby there; a plane it took off and an engine failed, so it decided to come back. So he came back and he turned round and he came back and he, he force landed. He crash landed. And he was sitting there and he was rocking on a 4,000lb bomb. [chuckle] And we took it in turns to go in, they got the crew out, there was one man in the bomb bay. He was still, his head had gone through a partition. And we took it in turns to cut through to get him out. And we were there, and there, there were a couple of WAAFs who worked for me in the plump bay and they were outside, hugging each other. ‘Oh, Mr Bullock’s in there.’ And I said: ‘Well, if the bomb had gone off you wouldn’t have stood much chance would ya?’ [chuckle] Anyway, it didn’t go off. We got them out. [deep sigh]
AH: And what was your job role at Kirk-?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What, what did you do as what [sorry]
PH : What was your job at East Kirkby?
WB : I was, I was what they call the Technical Adjutant. I did all the paperwork and books and things and returns and all sorts of stuff, that kept me busy for a year.
PH : Did you have to clear the beds in the mornings after the raids?
WB : Pardon?
PH: Did you have to clear the personal possessions away?
WB : Oh yeah. Oh well, when the, yeah when the if any got missing on raids, yeah you had to go round and collect the kit, and I, I collected the kits of, I think, of 120 people while I was there. And we just collected it all up, put in a bag and took it to what they called ‘The Committee of Adjustment’ who sorted everything out, and actually down in East Kirkby now there’s a memorial and there’s a very nice poem, very nice poem at East Kirkby to that we lost a thousand men in three years. Yeah, that was pretty good. A thousand men in three years. [sigh]
PH : What about the plane that came in upside down?
WB : Oh yes. We, we heard a terrific roar and when we got out, there was a plane up there and, and it was coming down and one engine was on fire, and it was heading down and eventually crashed and blew up, and there was one man, they got him out, they took him away on a stretcher and he [unclear] [chuckle] And anyway we said: ‘Well what about this engine on fire?’ They said: ‘No, it wasn’t that engine, the other one.’ They said ‘when you saw him it, it was upside down.’ And he went in, oh, dear oh dear, six, six of them killed. [sigh] Yeah. I got a job there, I had to keep, keep a good supply of engines and propellers, and the engines, they had to, Rolls Royce, Glasgow they dealt with them, and, if, you know, I had a lorry load and a rear Corporal in Boston called Tom caught on, and I said: ‘Tommy, I’ve got a load for Glasgow.’ He said: ‘Right, send your lorry.’ And he sent me lorry and trailer to deliver with a load of all these engines. And up and off they went to Glasgow. And came back with another load. But the, the more powerful Rolls Royce engines, the Merlins they went to Derby, Nightingale Road, Derby. So, so we sent them there, and oh – yeah, err. Now what else?
PH : What about the Tirpitz?
WB : The Tirpitz? Oh well, erm. Yes, the erm, this [stutter] the group engineer he came to me at East Kirkby and there were the more powerful Merlins, 34s. He said: ‘I want all your 34s with the broad propellers in sets. He says ; ‘It’s nothing to do with you what I want them for,’ but he said: ‘Get me in sets of four and when you get a set let me know.’ So, so I’m getting them all, got all me, changed all the, the little engines, but took the big ones out. Got them all rolled up and anyway, he came and he took them, and they went to 9 Squadron at Bardney, and it was for bombing the Tirpitz. Yeah, so at least we had a hand in that. [sigh] Oh yes, when this, when this one crashed and landed and a big piece of the airplane, it went through the guardroom, and there was a man, a man in the guardroom locked up on punishment. And this piece of metal, huge leg that went across and through the wall in the Nissan hut, over a bed and out the other side. And the following morning the padre he was around, he saw it, he said: ‘No matter where the evil doeth, the wrath of the Lord shall seek him out.’ [long chuckle] Oh dear, oh well at, yeah, Metheringham, we had what they called FIDO and it was pipes down each side of the runway, all the way down, with little holes in and when it was really foggy, they’d fiddle with the flares all down each side of the runway, and we had it once and it burnt big holes in the fog. And they landed, and an American landed but he had to come for some, he came in, and in a a fighter plane, and he went down and he slewed off the runway, he hit all my FIDO pipes, went back on again, and when he got to Traffic Control, he said: ‘It’s a mighty good thing you got there for keeping people on the runway. [chuckle] Yeah, Gibson, Guy Gibson, he was, when he’d done his job he came to us at East Kirkby for a rest. And he wasn’t a nice man. Very unpopular man. ‘Don’t call me Guy. Call me Dam Buster.’ But his dam, his bomb didn’t hit the dam, it missed it. Oh, he wasn’t a very nice man at all. And in the end, he accidently got shot down by one of our own bombers. Yeah, they mistook him for a German and they shot him down.
PH : Didn’t, didn’t some Canadian guy clock him one?
WB : Yeah, yeah he was getting a bit too familiar with, when they went to Canada, he was getting a bit too familiar with some blokes wife. A great big Dutch man, so he just went up and he dropped him. ‘THUNK!’ He said: ‘Leave my wife alone.’ [chuckle] He wasn’t a popular man at all. [long sup of tea.]
AH : And how did you feel about where -? How was morale?
WB : [still supping on tea] About what?
AH : How was morale when you were at East Kirkby?
WB : Oh all right. Yeah I did, I did me year on paperwork [laugh].
PH : Did, didn’t you, get to advise somebody at the Battle of Britain Flight about how to get a propeller prop off?
WB : You what?
PH : You advised somebody at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight how to get the propeller off because they were struggling to get the nuts off.
WB – Don’t get that –
PH : You got two awards for doing inventions, didn’t you?
WB : Oh, oh the thing the thing for taking propellers apart. Yeah [sniff sigh] Yes, when, yes that’s when I was at Waddington, and the big four bladed propellers on the, now then, they were Lincolns, not Lanc- Lincolns. You get the pulling them apart, and you shovel a big ring in and you had a big lever and pulled it, pulled it, pulled it. And, oh, it took men all day trying to get these damn things out and I said: ‘No.’ So I invented the little, a little gadget, a little tube about that long with a big nut and bolt in it and I put it in between the two blades and tightened it up, pushed them out two at a time. No bother. And I got a £15 reward from Bomber Command for inventing it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I did something else, I did somewhere else. Yeah, at, you took the cylinders off jet engines and you put them in some horrible acid stuff and soaked them to get the carbon off, and you had to heat it with big immersion heaters, and it was in this wooden box, and it took all day to heat it, and it didn’t get anywhere, so I thought, no. So, when, when new batteries came for the aeroplanes, they were in big polystyrene packs, and I collected all these sheets of polystyrene about a foot wide and about three feet long and glued them all around this container, and it heated it up quickly, and kept it warm. No both rugger, and the Air Ministry gave me £5 for thinking of it, for saving electricity. [chuckle] Yeah. - Oh, a thousand bomber raid, well I didn’t get mixed up with any of them. The first one, we were at Wigsley, we sent our planes to Swinderby, we operated there, a thousand bombers –
PH : How did it actually work?
WB : Eh?
PH : How did it actually work? How did you get a thousand bombers up at the same time?
WB : Well, eh, I they were all over the place, weren’t on they? Just came up. [deep sniff and sigh]
PH : When you were at school you used a tray, sand tray.
WB : Yeah, yeah when we were in the infants school. We had a little tray with sand, you wrote in it with our fingers and they did the same in Mereman [?] Fen. I was talking to a man once said: ‘We had these little trays with sand now, you do it with your fingers.’ And then eventually you got slate and you had a piece of rag pinned to your jersey to rub the slate out [laughter and sigh]. The things we did.
AH : Can you tell me more about Coningsby?
WB : Pardon?
AH : When you were at Coningsby.
WB : Well, that was in ’45. Yeah, I had 40 Lancasters to look after. Make sure they were there at the right time, otherwise if you didn’t, you’re chucked you out. Anyway, I always got them there right. No bother.
PH : You were part of Pathfinders, weren’t they?
WB : Eh?
PH : Were they Pathfinder Squadrons?
WB : Pathfinder, yeah. The ones who went in early and dropped flares for the others to bomb. They had them at Coningsby, yeah. And I had to keep 40 of them ready, all the time. No bother.
PH : How did you manage to do it in the winter?
WB : Well, you just did. Mostly they didn’t give you a lot of trouble. You didn’t get a lot of trouble. But in the winter, it if it, if it was bad out, you sprayed the wings with the de-icing stuff, to get [unclear], to get the ice off, and the propellers. You had to get the ice off before they could go or otherwise it was they were, you know, heavy and all the rest of it. Had to get this ice going. [sigh] Yeah. [long pause]
AH : What was it like being in Germany?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like being in Germany after they’ve been bombed? And then you...
WB : It was all right in Germany, they, they weren’t hostile at all. They were just mixed up, ordinary people. It wasn’t their fault we bombed them and they bombed us. But Hamburg, was a bit of a mess. Nice town Hamburg. Yeah. Yeah, we had a nice holiday in Hamburg. We went down to, oh, Ruhpolding, had a nice holiday there. And then we went down, we went down as far as Venice once on holiday. It was very good. We went down on, went down in the bus to, right in the corner of Germany and then we got a bus down to Venice. Four, four, five days in Venice. And we were way up in the mountains, and over, about a mile away there were two or three big American lorries. They were letting big black balloons up, and they were going up and over. And the bus driver stopped and everybody was looking, and I said: ‘I know [emphasis], I know what they are.’ I used to take The Reader’s Digest and there’d been an article in there about this lot, and when the wind blew in a certain direction over from Germany to Czechoslovakia, they used to let these big black balloons up full of leaflets and they would drift over to Czechoslovakia and drop all the leaflets down. So I told, there’s a man there who spoke English and I said: ‘I know what they are.’ And I told him. ‘Oh’ And they said: ‘Oh, the Englishman, he knows.’ [chuckle] They was alright. We had a nice holiday in Venice. You did, didn’t you?
PH: Yes. What was your nickname in the RAF? Was it Abdul?
WB : Abdul. Yeah, they called me Abdul. ‘Cos when we, I was always out in the sun. I was the colour of that table. And, when we got to, we went from Egypt, they moved us to Iraq, and got there, and of course, they all called me Abdul. And we had a, one of the locals, he looked after the bungalow, kept things clean, made the bed and all the rest of it. He said to me one day, I wonder. He says: ‘Why you in Royal Egypt? You Egyptian?’ I said: ‘I’m not a bloody Egyptian. I’m an Englishman.’ He said: ‘You black, why they call you Abdul!’ [loud cough]. And I never convinced him I was Englishman. Never. Oh dear, dear, dear. Oh, we had fun. Better out now [unclear].
PH : Did you have much entertainment off the base, at the village halls?
WB : No. [door bell and distant voices.] Father he joined the army as a bugler boy, and in the war he was called up to Air Ministry, and they said: ‘We want to put you in charge of, of a training squadron, you know a transport, a training squadron, and we’ll up you to squadron leader.’ And the man who was dealing with, he said: ‘You were my bugler boy when you joined the Army, weren’t ya?’ [laughter] Anyway, dad, he did very well as squadron leader. Yeah, he worked hard. [sigh] Did 41 years all together in the army, RFC and Army and Air Force. He was number 150 in the RFC. Very senior. Still not the first day and his brother was number 700, he joined up the next day. [chuckle] My brother did 22 years, my sister did four and a half in the Army and then she, she was civil servant with the, with the Navy in the Admiralty. And she, she was the personal private secretary to the Director Technical Polaris. Very, very important job and but if any of her admirals where going anywhere, she had to arrange all the transport, the right flags and, this, that and the other. And, and one of them one day said: ‘We’ve never seen you at one of our launches. You know when they launch one of the Polaris.’ She said: ‘I’ve never been invited.’ He said: ‘You will come to the next one.’ So the next launching, they laid a staff car on for Betty, picked her up, took her to the station, first class travel up to Barrow, entertained her, put her in a hotel, staff car took her out to the launching, came back, and when, when she left they, they gave her a carriage clock, and on the side of it was something-or-other : To Miss Betty Bullock [coughing] Aminu Ensis[?] to make the war work to seven admirals, and there were all these admirals names, and that was, that was good. She did a very good job with these admirals. Seven. Twenty-one years she was an admiral’s secretary. They took her out to a nice posh dinner and saw her off well. So we did our share. I did 34 years. My brother did 22 years. My dad did 41. And my sister did, oh heavens only knows how many. [sigh] Yeah.
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB :` Oh, he was in the Flying Corps. Yeah, he was an Engineer Officer with the Flying Corps – Number 1 5 0. They did all sorts of things.
PH : What sort of planes would he be working on?
WB : [growls] Well, I know De Havilland something or other. Bristol fighters, Sopwith Camels and all sorts of thing. There was one there that had a rotary engine and instead of the engine being still and everything going round, the crankshaft was bolted and the engine went round it. No, no rotary. The engine went round [stutters]. You wouldn’t imagine it, would you? Anyway it did.
PH : What year did you join the RAF?
WB : I joined up in ’32 and I came out in ’66. Yeah. I went everywhere from AC1 to flight lieutenant and back again. [Long sniff] Oh, I wasn’t all that happy with being a flight lieutenant, I don’t know, I, anyway I ditched my commission and I went back and I was a warrant officer for about 13 years, and I was much happier as a warrant officer. You didn’t have big mess bills and expenses at all. You, you were well off. [coughing] No, I usually had jobs in charge of workshops and it was a real, you know, nice job. Workshop jobs. Where the work was. [coughing and long pause].
AH : What did you do after the war? After you left the RAF, sorry?
WB : I came out the year I went down to Horncastle Rural District Council and the rating department, collected money and all this that and other. And then did that for about eight years. And then when this reorganising took place, I got moved to East Lindsey District Council, and oh, oh I don’t know I did paperwork all the time. Yeah.
PH : It wasn’t particularly a cosy job at times though. You got followed, didn’t you, one time –
WB : Eh?
PH : You got followed because you got money in the car. Didn’t –
WB : Oh. no, I didn’t get stopped.
PH : No, but didn’t somebody follow you all day.
WB : Well, that were coming back from Wragby. Somebody once said to me: ‘I used to collect rent at Wragby and you got several hundred pound in your bag.’ And somebody once said to me. No, no it was me wife, she was in the dentist was down the dentist in the town there, and they were talking this and said: ‘You know when that rent collector goes over the level crossing at 4 o’clock’, they said, ‘He’s got an awful lot of money in that bag.’ And Mary told me, she said: ‘Oh.’ Anyway, the next time I came out when I went over the level crossing, and there was a car, there was a van there. I thought: Oh. So I put my foot down and came back about 70 mile per hour and I told the boss and he said: ‘Right, so from then on, someone was seen to see me in the afternoon and take a big bag off me with most of the money. So they didn’t, I didn’t have all that money to people to pinch off me, but I wasn’t very happy with people following me. ‘Cos they said: ‘If every you’re attacked, just let the money go, don’t argue.’ I said: ‘No, not if I been collecting it, bugger it. I’m not let them have it.’ [chuckles] So, anyway, we didn’t have any more bother. But it makes you wonder, don’t it?
[long pause]
PH : You seen a lot of changes in aircraft design, haven’t you?
WB: Yeah [sniff] yeah. The one, the one before the Lancaster was a Manchester. It had two, two big engines, 3,000 horsepower engines. Two. There were, the, the Merlins two like that and the [unclear] Vulcan and it had [stuttering] X’s. Vulture, anyway they were the two big cross engines and it only had a single tail rudder. The old Manchester it was useless as an aeroplane. It was slow and it was cumbersome. It didn’t carry much big load. Anyway, they soon turned it into a Lancaster, and it was a marvellous aeroplane. Marvellous aeroplane. They made 700, 7,000 odd in the war. Yeah, it was the best plane that came out of the war. [inaudible]
PH : What’s the one after the Lancaster?
WB : Lincoln. A bit, bit, bit bigger. Four bladed props against the Lancasters three. Yeah, I think it had bigger, didn’t have a Griffin engine, I think the Lincoln. A bigger engine. And it was a big aeroplane. It was East, erh, Waddington. [pause] Yes [long pause]
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Pardon?
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Do what?
PH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Well I don’t think so, I can’t think of much. No, no not much to do with the RAF. There are things not to do.
AH : How do you feel about the way Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Does she what?
PH : How do you feel that Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Well...
PH : ... with Bomber Harris.
WB : Bomber Harris, they didn’t treat him well. They - everybody got a knighthood, but not, not Bomber. They, they, they ignored him. They didn’t treat him right. He did a good job, Bomber Harris. They said he was brutal, but he only did his job. He just said: ‘If you can’t get the factories, get the people that who work in them.’ Well, fair enough, but you can’t blame him for that. He got these bombers going. No, he wasn’t treated well, Bomber Harris – ha [long sigh] There’s a man just died, Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And he was down at East Kirkby, and John Chatterton, he had to test pilots, and he said: ‘I remember this bloke Michael Beetham coming through, and he was too good, he said he had, had to rate him above average, cos he’s way above average.’ And he finished up Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And I met him, nice man, met him down at East Kirkby. Yeah. And there were two ex-apprentices, got cadetship and went to Cranwell. They both finished up as Air Marshalls. Yeah. Some did well, very well.
PH : What, what were you days at Houlton like?
WB : Eh?
PH : What were your days at Houlton like?
WB : All right.
PH : What were you know as?
WB : Oh, Trenchard Sprouts [chuckle] Yeah. Oh, it was a good life, yeah, yeah it was a good life. You worked hard, but they trained you well. But they always said: ‘If a bloke was ever trained at Houlton, he could walk straight into a job at Rolls Royce. That was that Houlton training, you can go straight to Rolls Royce as a workman. [sniff and sigh] Yeah. Three years. Jolly good.
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Eh?
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Well, he was a General in the First War and then he, he started the, more-or-less, started the Air Force, as such, Flying Corps. General Lieutenant, General Sir whatever his name Trenchard, and he started the apprentice scheme, the apprentice’s scheme; hence the name Trenchard Sprouts. He was a good man, Trenchard. Not a big man. Yes he started the RAF. [loud crash and bang] Ohi.
AH : Well, thank you very much.
WB : Pardon?
AH : Thank you.
PH : Yeah, well call that -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Bullock
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-30
Format
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00:57:49 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABullockWEJ151030, PBullockWEJ1601
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
William Bullock was born in Marshfield in Gloucestershire in September 1916 and joined the Royal Air Force as an apprentice in 1932. He was posted to Egypt for training - after serving in the Middle East he joined Bomber Command as an engineer. After serving at RAF East Kirkby, William moved to 106 Squadron at RAF Metheringham before joining Pathfinders at RAF Conningsby, looking after and maintaining 40 Lancasters. William was in charge of moving aircraft around from location to location and tells about his role as a technical adjutant and supplying Merlin engines for the attack on the Tirpitz. He also describes his technical innovations and of his meeting with Guy Gibson. William tells about his post war family and service life, with details on his posting in Sylt, Germany where he saw the extent of bombing damage. He also elaborates on Hugh Trenchard, Michael Beetham, and Arthur Harris.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Sylt
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
North Africa
Iraq
Iraq--Mosul
106 Squadron
bombing
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Metheringham
Tirpitz
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/508/8409/PDixonAS1501.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/508/8409/ADixonAS151106.2.mp3
54a81115d09ad9d86498297a44c1d90e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dixon, Alec Stuart
A S Dixon
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dixon, AS
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alec Stuart Dixon (178872 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Alec Dixon. The interview is taking place at Mr Dixon’s home in Cleethorpes on the 6th of November 2015.
AD: Well, we start when I was nineteen and I thought there was going to be a war so I thought I’d better get myself the best job of all. Be a pilot. And there was an opportunity because the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve had opened up Waltham Aerodrome as a training centre so I applied for the interview. There were three wing commanders I had to convince that I was the type of person that would make a good pilot and I succeeded in that but my entry was delayed because of a tooth that needed filling. When I got, when I finally got signed up it was on May the 3rd I think, when I signed up for flying at Waltham. The aircraft I was flying was on Miles Magisters and we attended every weekend for flying and during the week we attended the town centre for lectures on various subjects and this continued right through to August when there was the stunning announcement that we were to be all called up and Waltham Aerodrome would be closed down. This did happen and we all hung around waiting for something to happen that would accelerate our training. We were all posted down to Hastings where, if the Germans had had any sense when we were there it was absolutely full of potential pilots and if they sent a stream of bombers down the sea front they’d wipe the air force out without any trouble at all. Anyway, they didn’t do it. They weren’t as bright as they thought they were. From Hastings I went to Burnaston in Derbyshire and continued single-engined training and from there I moved to Little Rissington where I went on the twin-engined aircraft and during that procedure we were asked what we wanted to fly on ops and I opted to fly for the latest thing they had which was the Beaufort torpedo bomber. I thought that sounded rather good and anyway when I’d finished my training on Ansons I was posted to Silloth and there I was trained as a Hudson pilot and when I say trained as a Hudson pilot they had a particularly, method of crewing. Normally you get a pilot, second pilot, navigator, flight engineer, wireless operator and air gunners but a Hudson pilot the two pilots had to be trained on all those things. We used to fly one trip, one pilot would fly, the next trip the other pilot would fly. The second pilot would then be a bomb aimer. Maybe the flight engineer. He had, he had to be good at aldis, the lamp and at Morse. Very high specification and also operate the gunner, the gunnery turret or the side swivel gun. We had Vickers, no, yeah a Vickers gas operated. On completion of my training I went to a squadron at Leuchars in Scotland where the task was reconnoitring the Norwegian coast, the Baltic, and any shipping sailing in that area. For the first few trips I flew the squadron leader who was the flight commander. Anyway, we didn’t stay there very long and when we got over to Limavady, no, to Aldergrove. Aldergrove in Ireland which has a runway which is more like a, I forget the name of the thing. Switchback ride. It was, it leaned over on one side and back on the other and I was pleased to get to Limavady where we only had a mountain to negotiate on the circuit. There we did convoy escort and looking for submarines and that and one day I was flying, I was due to be pilot and my navigator, the other pilot hadn’t turned up and it so happened that he’d been collared by the CO, Wing Commander [Curnow] and we were after the Bismarck so I said, ‘Well you’ll want me won’t you?’ He said, ‘Oh yes. You can man the side gun.’ So there were three pilots on board and we set off and straight across Ireland. We didn’t take any notice of the neutrality of the country. We went straight on course to the station that we’d been, or a spot where we were told to patrol. I think we could see the Bismark quite a long long way away and then we caught up with a Heinkel and it turned tail and started running away from us. The CO chased it. Fired the front guns at it. Didn’t do any good. We drew alongside. Not quite near enough and [pumped lead?] at each other. I was shooting at the starboard engine on the Heinkel and I think I saw a puff of smoke come out but anyway the, my co-pilot had decided that we were running out of petrol so we’d better break off the chase and get back to Ireland which we did. Straight across neutral Ireland and that was that. Sometime later, I did quite a number of trips on the Atlantic convoy business and then one day on DROs they were asking for volunteers for PRU, Photographic Reconnaissance Unit and the chap who interviewed me said, ‘It’s more than likely you’ll go on to the new Mosquito.’ So I thought well that would be smashing. And there was a bit of a hold up in me leaving, leaving the squadron and when I got there they’d filled the course up with applicants and I was excluded so instead of hanging around they said would you like to do the Spitfires? And the Spitfire on PRU was rather a splendid aeroplane. They’d removed the guns from, and the ammunition boxes and all that from the wings and fitted it with petrol tanks which gave us a range you start here and you can go six hundred miles and come back. Twelve hundred miles altogether. Nearly about nearly six hours flying depending on the height you were flying at and everything. And it was, I was posted. When I finished the CO said, ‘Have you flown a spitfire before?’ I said, ‘No. I’m a Hudson man,’ and he said, ‘Well there’s the handbook, go and sit in the aeroplane, on the flight line and I’ll see you at 2 o’clock and ask you questions about it.’ So I had to learn all the controls and everything and he came up, ran me through and said, ‘Well you’re alright then. Off you go.’ Now, I’d been told that the Spitfire was very light on the stick fore and aft and on a Hudson it was a two handed job shoving it forward to get the tail up to get speed for take-off and I’m afraid my delicate touch [laughs] didn’t suit the Spitfire at that time. I went down the runway nearly like a camel and off on my first trip which was the, some channel ports, Languedoc aerodrome which was to the northwest of Brest, Brest [pause] and Brest and I photographed there and nothing happened. And I did most of my photography at twenty eight thousand feet which is the best suited for the cameras to give the most detail and down the coast again to where was I going then. Oh, St Nazaire. St Nazair, [?] [Dulon?] quite a lot of small places. Right down to Bordeaux and the River Gironde and then to, along to the Spanish coast and go down on the way to [?] on the Mediterranean. I never got as far as that but I used to take photographs of between, along the French Franco Spanish border in case people wanted escape routes and I thought they’d be helpful. Nobody ever said anything about, about it being useful but it might have been. And then back to base which was, you know an uneventful event and we occasionally saw the odd fighter aircraft but a Spitfire at that time was fitted with a special engine which you were allowed to use full throttle for twelve minutes and it gave some phenomenal speeds. A normal indicated speed was about a hundred and eighty knots which had to be converted according to temperature and that so you had to do all your own navigation and it was fairly easy getting the right places on the coast. Coming back, we usually came back inland photographing any aerodromes that might be there and always photograph the coast as you went out ready for the invasion. I did quite, quite [coughs], quite a few trips and then on one trip I was, we did occasionally get flak but on one trip over Brest they put up a bloody big barrage and I could hear the shrapnel hit my tail, or the fuselage behind but I had three miles a minute, a hundred and eighty miles an hour. A hundred and eighty yeah, three miles a minute. I soon finished the run along Brest harbour, turned left and went into overdrive because radio in England had said there were some bandits about. I thought that’s just what I want, cheer somebody up tell them there’s some bandits. Anyway, all of sudden the windscreen covered in oil, the canopy in oil and I couldn’t see a thing so I thought this is really a cheerful trip and I tried opening the canopy which I did and got my goggles all oiled up so I had to get, lean over to the other side of the cockpit to get looking through about a two inch gap but it didn’t give me much view and all the way back St Eval. When I got to St Eval I was feeling pretty tired and when I made my approach I was, and due to the fact that I couldn’t gauge things right because of the oil on the windscreen I came in a bit too high and landed a too far down the runway. Well that was alright. I’ll put my brakes on. I put my brakes on. Course they’d got oil on them as well and they didn’t work. I knew there was a hedge at the end of the runway so I just trickled along, switched the engine off so that it didn’t put a load on the engine, or the propeller, ran in to the hedge, tipped gently on the nose and wondered how to get out. I needn’t have bothered. There was a jeep alongside me and the flight commander and what not helped me out and that was that. They decided then that I should go to Fraserburgh as an instructor which I did and at Fraserburgh, this is another [laughs] the medical officer apparently got a bit of dual from the dual flying with an instructor and I was asked to take him up one day and I did do and we were coming in to land and I thought he’s going to be short on runway but just couldn’t tell but what I didn’t know was that the concrete runway was about ten inches higher than the ground preceding it and he touched down about a couple of feet on the grass, wiped the undercarriage off and there was another thing to explain. Anyway, they decided it wasn’t my fault and anyway he shouldn’t have been flying and it was all hushed up and off we went. When I left Fraserburgh I went into the village with my friend and at night we used to catch the train back to the camp and the driver didn’t turn up so my friend, he knew how to drive a train so he waited until the departure time and drove it back to the station and everybody got out all, no late coming back, you know, absent, or without leave sort of thing. That was quite an interesting event. But anyway, we went down to Dyce and there Aberdeen was the town and there was also a railway station just outside the entrance to the camp and we quite often, we’d overstay and sleep on the train in Aberdeen station and get back ready. The flight office was just around the corner from the entrance which was next to the station ready for flying. From there I was posted to Gibraltar and there I flew a Gladiator and a Lysander on meteorological flight and it was a devil to land at Gibraltar in the Gladiator because if the wind was in a certain direction from the southwest, yeah, southwest, the rock used to divide it and you would be coming downwind at one end and into wind at the other and the Gladiator would fly on, fly on in a breeze and wouldn’t touch down so it was quite, quite an experience as a pilot. From there, I only did a short spell there and I went on another course to, I forget the name of the aerodrome near Edinburgh, on a refresher course where I managed to get an above average assessment and posted to the Middle East. To [pause] Cairo where I had quite a smashing time and then from there I was posted to [Al Shamir?] in Palestine as a staff pilot and flying Navigators around Palestine and quite a cushy job. And then I decided I should go back. Oh I was recommended for a commission there. I was a young warrant officer at the time and I passed my commission and I was posted to an operational squadron in, due to invade Greece but when I got there the boat had left and I had to wait for transport to get me to Greece. At Greece we chased the Germans up Greece and past Salonica and from Salonica we set out one morning to bomb the marshalling yards at somebody slimovic or something like that. Peculiar name. And on the way I had engine trouble and the engine kept cutting and I couldn’t maintain speed in the squadron so the CO said you’d better turn around and go back if you can and the misfiring became more obvious and I picked out a piece of ground that looked a bit boggy and I thought well if I land in there wheels up I should be alright and I did do and I got out the aeroplane. Started walking. I don’t know why I walked in that direction but I did. Two men popped out from behind a hedge with guns levelled at me and I was, ‘Englesi. Englesi.’ They looked rather doubtful. Anyway I managed to convince them because we were dressed in battle dress which was grey and similar to the German stuff and the Germans had wings on their right hand side and we had ours on the left and we went to the village. Well they took us to the schoolmaster’s house and he spoke a bit of English and we all sat down nattering away and that night they all came, quite a few of the village came around and they have a system there where when they’ve made the wine and they then make a very potent brew. I don’t know what they call it but the idea is you toss it down and then they have a plate of jam on the table and you just stick your fist in it and then slam the jam down your throat. It’s the only way you can drink it and you can imagine after about a half a dozen of these everybody’s face was covered in jam and I woke up the next morning very [fit?] [laughs] from which I was very pleased with a terrible headache. Anyway, I set off to walk back to Salonica. I managed to get a ride on a horse and cart for a short while. In the meantime I’m carrying my parachute and everything with me and eventually when I got near Salonica which I don’t know whether it was the same day or the next day. I can’t really remember and that was the end of that episode and the Germans were still running away up in Macedonia which incidentally was where this place I’d had the drinks at and I saw the CO when I got back and he said, ‘I’ll send you on another course.’ And back to Egypt to take a single-engine pilot’s gunnery and bombing course. Instructor’s course. So I did that, completed that and found out that my squadron had been disbanded. It was getting quite late on in the war and I was posted to 43 squadron which was in Italy and I packed all my gear, called in at the aerodrome. They said I couldn’t take my gear with me. I said, ‘If I can’t take my gear with me I’m not going.’ Anyway, I got, got my way to Italy and just in time to do my last operational flight. It was because in Italy the Italians surrendered on May the 3rd which was the day I’d joined six years earlier of continuous flying. And when I’d been commissioned I was, it was a sort of an agreement that I would stay on in the RAF after the war and probably take up a permanent commission and I thought that was good but after the excitement, as you might call it, and interest of wartime it seemed damned silly playing games for something you’d been doing for real for six years and I decided that I would take the option of being demobbed in the normal way which happened to be sometime before Christmas in ‘45 would it be? Yeah. Forty. Yeah in ’45 and I was home for Christmas and my favourite drinking place was the Lifeboat Hotel on the seafront and whilst I was going in there one night and I heard my name called and the sister of one of my friends introduced Audrey. My wife-to-be to me. And I think it must have been instant attraction. Love. Whatever. She’s a wonderful girl.
[machine paused]
AD: [?] in the mess and the CO came in and said, ‘I want six of you to disarm a German group,’ and we went there and we found there was an SS and a load of Italians. I don’t think they were on full strength. I don’t know how many there were. So we marched them forward, pistols here, rifles here, grenades there and I think they were quite happy to see the end of the war. From then on, I’d given my intention of leaving the air force and I came off flying and did the adjutant’s job while he was on leave. I think I sent too many people on leave. We got into trouble for that. [laughs] And then I was home. I’d missed a bit, got a lot of that mixed up, meeting Audrey in, in The Lifeboat. From there I went back to my job. I took some shares in the business and we decided we’d build a bungalow or something. A friend of mine was a builder and he built three bungalows. This one, the next one and the one. Had a garden a hundred yards long to start with and then the Corporation took so much for road widening, grass verges.
[phone ringing. Machine paused]
AH: Carry on.
AD: Yes. So we made plans. We made plans to get married. We married on April the 24th 1948 which was a Saturday and we moved in to here for our honeymoon. We couldn’t afford to go away after paying deposits and that and started married life together which has been great ever since. Except she’s getting a bit bossy nowadays. [laughs] Don’t put that. Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Oh I didn’t tell you about when we were in Greece we used to fly over to Crete which was occupied by German troops. Landed in Heraklion. The aerodrome about midway from the main town and there the Wellington would land unload, some hundred pound bombs. We’d stick them underneath the Spit, take off and go and bomb the, what we were told was an ammunition dump. As we were getting near to the end of the war and nobody particularly fancied bombing an ammunition dump from the normal height that we bombed targets at. I’m afraid we, nothing happened. It was all false information to start with. Everybody was very happy and then that’s when we went back to Salonica and that’s the end of the war.
AH: How did you get home to England?
AD: Oh back to England. There was another story there. We went by train through Switzerland, France -
Other: I’ll switch this light on. It’s getting a bit dark.
AD: Calais and there we were camped for a night and caught the boat the next morning. There were six officers I think. Six. And probably about two hundred men and we sort of paraded on the front and the, called all the officers in to the office. Searched us all. Searched the kit and nobody discovered anything so that was fine and we got out and they just marched the men straight through without any, I thought rather discriminatory. Reversed some way or other. Do you want any more?
AH: And did you get leave when you got home?
AD: Oh yes. Yeah, I got, I was on leave for my overseas tour and demobilisation tour so I became a civvy for quite a while before returning to work where I’d, after a while I discovered that the firm were not quite on the straight path with me so I left and started my own business in the same line and then the owner of the business died and there were three accountants who were friends of his, who lent him the money to start the business and they were naturally interested in getting their money back so they approached me and asked me if I would take charge and go back to my old company which I did and we built up a really good business. Grimsby Corporation, Cleethorpes Corporation, Grimsby Rural District. Most of the solicitors including the big ones and most of the garages including main dealers. All under contract to us. Stationery Office. We even did the American Air Force at East Kirkby and so I continued until I was sixty five and I hung on three months and let the other two, and three run the business. And since then I’ve been gardening and enjoying life until I went blind. And it’s been a slow process. At first I couldn’t believe that I was registered blind. Macular degeneration. And it rapidly got worse and worse and worse. Practically total. And that’s the end of the story. Anything I missed Daniel?
DS: I think -
AD: [?] An engine failure on take-off and the aircraft swung and I managed to hold it after it had swung so far and run off the runway on to the grass because the rest of the squadron were ready to take off and unfortunately I didn’t know they’d dug a small trench parallel with the runway. The wheels got stuck and we swung around even more and I shouted evacuate ‘cause we were loaded with mines. Not mines, depth charges but I was too late they’d already clustered around the door, opened it and were out so I got myself out as well and that was the end of that. When I was flying I think I flew about ten different aircrafts. Different aircraft. I managed to have about five accidents on them. None of which were my fault thank goodness and that’s about it.
AH: Was it a shock? Was it strange to come home and not fly anymore?
AD: No. Not really. I was enjoying myself. New girlfriend. Plans. I’m busy with them. You know, running my own business and then joining in with my old firm. No. It seemed quite the natural thing to do. I have flown since. I had a lot of photographs that it’d, I don’t know whether I ought to tell you this really because it’s all water under the bridge. Might delete it later. Benson held a reunion for sixty years in existence, a PRU and I was invited there and asked if I had any photographs taken on operations which I had a photograph album full. So I stripped most of them out, handed them in and never got them back. And Daniel I met, here’s another strange coincidence. I met Daniel in Marks and Spencers. I was sitting near the entrance and this bloke came in and sat, he was waiting as well and we got in to conversation and found that he was air force and I was and we’ve been friends ever since. Jolly good.
AH: What did you enjoy flying most?
AD: What did I enjoy flying most? I don’t think anybody can fly anything better than a Spitfire. Mosquito was alright but it gave a lot of trouble. They only had one, its prototype, and it gave a lot of trouble and of course was extended and extended. Eventually they got things right. The Gladiator was a nice aeroplane to fly. As an aeroplane it was very sharp on turns and it was nicely aerobatic. You could do rolls and whatnot which you weren’t supposed to do if you were on a Met flight flying but you have to do something to make it interesting. Yeah. A Spitfire I’d plump for. I flew. I’ll tell you what I flew. Miles Magister. Anson. Oxford. Hudson. Mosquito one trip. Boulton Paul Defiant. A German aircraft I picked up when we went into Greece. An Auster. I’m sure there was one or two more. The Spit was definitely the best aeroplane to fly. I think most Spitfire pilots would tell you that. Oh, I flew a Hurricane as well. You tend to forget these things you know. I’m the same as any other ninety six year old. I can remember some things but not others. I thought I had a good memory but I’m beginning to think it’s not as good as my wife’s. She’s got family relations tied down no end. Tells me stuff from years back that I can’t remember. It’s a pity really. Pity? No. Not pity. It’s very unsettling.
[pause]
AD: Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Anyway. That’s about it dear.
AH: Thank you.
[machine paused]
AD: The essential to the German army that they had the use of that otherwise they had to give way to the Russians.
DS: But I think Coventry and the blitz were previous to that so -
AD: Oh it was tit for tat.
DS: Yeah.
AD: It was the same with London wasn’t it? There were no civilians in the war. Everybody was in it except those wide boys who lived on the black market and I think everybody patronised them. They were essential to keeping the job going really. Very unfairly but -
AH: Had you always wanted to be a pilot? Was it -
AD: Yes. My uncle was in the Royal Flying Corps during World War One and he had a garage and a cycle shop and motorbike agencies in Cleethorpes and I wanted to go and work for him when I left school but he had to get somebody in. The business had got too big and there wasn’t room for me. My mother died when I was about six or seven and a simple dose of antibiotics if it had been invented would have probably [pause]. Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Yeah. I often wondered what it was like being on a bomber crew. I think they were a very brave lot.
AH: Did you know any?
AD: Hmmn?
AH: Did you know any?
AD: Oh I lost quite a lot of friends. You see there were eighty of us I think at the beginning of the war and I’ve never met more than a dozen people afterwards. I’ve forgotten most of their names. You wouldn’t think you could do would you but you do.
[pause]
AD: Yeah. I remember when I was at St Eval. Ted Phillipson had joined me who was my, we used to motorbike together. He was a great friend. He turned up at St Eval. I didn’t see him but I had a phone call and I arranged to see him at his digs when he’d returned from a trip down to patrol the bay in a Whitley and I was going down to Bordeaux and back and it would take him all day doing it and he didn’t turn up. His body was washed ashore.
[pause]
AD: Oh dear.
[pause]
AD: That was a painting done by a friend of mine and he personalised it by putting, I forget whether it was a squadron in Greece or Italy. All PRU machines were, flush riveting and filled in and smoothed and a dull finish. Blue. And we had some pink ones which we used for low level photography. Bruneval being one fine example. You know the German radar station on the French coast. We wanted to find out all about it. Sent a PR Spit on a cloudy day, photographed the, and brought it back and did they ever send a raiding party across?
DS: I’m not sure.
AD: I’m not sure. Anyway, it ceased to be of the use that it was before it was done. You know, important little things like that in PR used to happen and all taken in as part of a day’s work.
AH: What was it like flying off to - ?
AD: Hmmn?
AH: What was it like going somewhere to photograph?
AD: Well I always had a faith that I would survive. Self-confidence. And it’s a belief without being religious but you are, believe that the Gods will look after you. If you haven’t got that you can suffer all kinds of things. It didn’t bother me a great deal because I was sufficiently confident. Perhaps over confident. I don’t know. Anyway, I survived. And I’m also very lucky what the Gods did. Anyway, I hope you got something out of all that lot.
AH: That’s lovely. Thank you.
[machine paused]
AD: Funny thing was we were never debriefed. You know when crews got back from an operation they always saw an intelligence officer and were debriefed as to what had happened. All the little incidents, whatnot. We were just told the target is this place, that place, that place. The was briefing before we had, and I used to have a map with return home points in case you got in to trouble and when we got back nobody asked you if anything had happened. You never bothered, nobody bothered very much about telling anybody they’d been shot at, chased or, I think it was regarded as [a bit in for a dig?] It might sound as if you’ve been boasting or something like that because the photographs were the whole purpose of the trip. They were the evidence that you’d been there, you’d done a good job. What more could you tell them? Nothing about their job of interpretation. I did hear later on in the, after, was it after the war? Yes it was after the war. The Germans had a photographic unit and of course they had some special Leica lenses that we didn’t have and they used to get some really clear photographs but we only had the first phase interpretation. They looked as if there was nothing obvious. They were just put, stored under February the 4th, 4:30 so and so and that was all they did whereas on PRU at Medmenham there was a second phase, a third phase of interpretation which is why that rocket at Peenemunde was suddenly discovered on one of the photographs on the third stage. It had been missed on the first and second and then that resulted in a bombing raid on Peenemunde. It was quite a satisfying job. Allowed you a great deal of freedom and licence. I remember when I finished my course on learning to fly the Spitfire the CO said, ‘I want you to go now and learn the coast from the Thames to the Humber and then next week we’ll do the south coast.’ And I flew up and I thought Humber? Well that’s where I live. So get up to Cleethorpes and have a look around. I can see the street and I went down to about a hundred feet and flew over it, pulled up and thought I’ll go around again and I went down and years later I met a bloke who lived in, opposite and he said he was upstairs looking out and he could see me in the cockpit. I was so low I must have caused a lot of consternation on the street then. The trouble was my father didn’t see me. He was ill in bed. Never recovered. There’s been a lot on radio recently about going back into the past. Wondering how it affects you. Yeah. Really got to try and find yourself haven’t you? [pause] And you’ll be wanting to go home now, won’t you?
AH: It’s very interesting. Did you have any brothers or sisters?
AD: I had a sister [she’s not?] two nephews. Keep in touch with them. My mother’s name was Dixon before she married and quite a big family but I think there was some trouble with things.
[pause]
AH: Thank you.
[machine paused]
AH: This is a continuation of the interview conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre with Mr Alec Dixon. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles and the interview took place at Mr Dixon’s home in Cleethorpes on the 6th of November 2015.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alec Stuart Dixon
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-06
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADixonAS151106, PDixonAS1501
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Format
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01:12:07 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Alec Stuart Dixon volunteered for the Royal Air Force via the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. After training he flew Beauforts and Ansons, then trained as a Hudson pilot. He flew convoy escort operations and reconnaissance flights looking for submarines and the Bismarck. Recollects flying over neutral Ireland. Alec volunteered for Photographic Reconnaissance Unit and flew over France, the Spanish border the Mediterranean and Peenemünde. Followed sustained damage on one operation he became an instructor, was posted to Gibraltar flying a Gladiator and a Lysander on meteorological flights. Successive posts were Cairo, then Palestine and Italy with 43 Squadron. After the end of the war, he returned to his old workplace then started a company with friends.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
France
Germany
Germany--Peenemünde
Gibraltar
Great Britain
Ireland
Italy
Mediterranean Sea
Middle East--Palestine
North Africa
43 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
Bismarck
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
demobilisation
faith
Hudson
Lysander
Photographic Reconnaissance Unit
pilot
RAF Silloth
RAF St Eval
reconnaissance photograph
recruitment
Spitfire
submarine
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/474/8420/NClydeSmithD-190916-01.2.jpg
d00c222f4c0bc69607fd77694c46ab58
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Clyde-Smith, Denis
Clyde-Smith, D
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains 26 items and concerns Squadron Leader Denis Clyde-Smith Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross, who joined the Royal Air Force and trained as a pilot in 1937. He flew in the anti aircraft cooperation role including remotely piloted Queen Bee aircraft before serving on Battle aircraft on 32 Squadron. He completed operational tours on Wellington with 115 and 218 Squadrons and Wellington and Lancaster with 9 Squadron after which he went to the aircraft and armament experimental establishment at Boscombe Down. The collection consists of two logbooks, aircraft histories of some of the aircraft he flew, photographs of people and aircraft, newspaper articles and gallantry award certificate.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Clyde-Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-19
Identifier
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Clyde-Smith, D
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HALIFAX BOMBER’S TOUR
FROM OUR AERONAUTICAL CORRESPONDENT
The Handey [sic] Page Halifax bomber which has been making a tour of Rhodesia and South Africa has now returned to this country. The return journey from Capetown was made via Bulawayo, Ndola (where it was the first four-engined aircraft to have landed), Nairobi, Khartum, Cairo,[sic] and Rome. In all, the machine covered some 12,000 miles.
At Capetown demonstration flights were made with members of the S.A.A.F. as passengers. In addition to Government officials, some 1,000 members of the services were shown over the Halifax during its stay in South Africa.
The Halifax was manned by an R.A.F. crew under the command of Squadron Leader Clyde-Smith, D.S.O., D.F.C., who piloted it throughout the tour.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Halifax bomber tour
Description
An account of the resource
Newspaper article about Halifax on tour of Rhodesia and South Africa via Bulawayo, Ndola, Nairobi, Khartoum, Cairo and Rome. Mentions demonstration flights in South Africa and that the aircraft was commanded by Squadron Leader Clyde-Smith Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross.
Format
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One newspaper cutting
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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NClydeSmithD-190916-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Italy
Kenya
South Africa
Sudan
Zambia
Zimbabwe
Egypt--Cairo
Italy--Rome
Kenya--Nairobi
Sudan--Khartoum
Zambia--Ndola
Zimbabwe--Bulawayo
North Africa
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
Halifax
propaganda
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/637/8907/PSeaggerA1612.1.jpg
e8d1c1c8d9913588e942d59defb32bda
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/637/8907/ASeaggerA160729.1.mp3
498806bf0218ec4587be49c6fe5b4a64
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Seagger, Alan
A Seagger
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Seagger, A
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alan Seagger (1920 - 2019, 1186497 Royal Air Force). He served as ground personnel with 33 and 41 Squadrons in Italy, North Africa and the Middle East.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alan Seagger and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Additional identifications provided by Giusi Sartoris and the members of the 'Sei di foggia se' and 'Le grandi battaglie della storia' Facebook groups.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HD: Helen Durham recording for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive on Friday the 29th of July 2016 and the time is 10.15.
AS: Spot on.
HD: I’m here to interview Mr Alan Seagger from xxxx in Grimsby. Good morning.
AS: Good morning to you.
HD: Thank you so much for allowing us to come and interview.
AS: Yeah.
HD: First of all I’d like you just to tell me a little bit about what you did before the RAF.
AS: I was an apprentice in electrical. On, what shall we say? Really it would be not normal house wiring or anything like that? It was on heavy generators because everything or most things I should put in those days was DC direct debit — Direct Current as against what it is today which is a normal AC but yes I was apprenticed. I was getting a bit concerned what would happen to my apprenticeship when I left but fortunately it was covered alright and I was alright so. Then I got on draught to the place in — near Bedford where —
HD: This is when you joined the RAF.
AS: Yeah. That’s when I got my number and everything else and it was, it was quite a nice camp. Wasn’t there all that time. Got kitted out and all that sort of thing and then —
HD: And what year was this?
AS: ‘40. Probably. Yeah ’40. What are you shaking your head for?
HD: So you went to Bedford.
AS: Yeah
HD: And how long were you there for?
AS: Not very long but I couldn’t really tell you. Then we was told what they wanted us for which wasn’t in the electrical side of it. But still — I didn’t mind in the end because it was all, what shall we say, something that once I got used to it all I was quite happy. And then I went away on a course. I don’t know whether it was St Anne’s, St Athan’s or something like that. And then after that I was, I think I went home on a short leave and from the short leave I was posted to Binbrook. And —
HD: That was Binbrook in Lincolnshire.
AS: In Lincolnshire. Yeah. Which was a very strange posting at the time when I had to get out at a place called [pause] at a place called —? Was it Middle? What —?
HD: Right.
AS: Yeah. Something like that. What is it Beverley?
HD: Middle Rasen?
AS: What’s the two stops? There’s two. Little. Before you get to Lincoln.
BS: Middle Rasen. Market Rasen.
HD: Market Rasen. Yeah.
AS: Rasen.
HD: Yes. Right.
AS: And I had to get out there and I was very puzzled on how I got to the camp so the — I think he was probably the porter on the platform said, ‘Oh give them a ring. They’ll come and pick you up.’ And that was a journey from there to Binbrook. Why I couldn’t come all the way to Grimsby I don’t know. And I don’t think they knew it either at the time.
HD: No. And how long were you at Binbrook for?
AS: Oh [pause] Do you know I got posted abroad and that could be — what? The best part of a year I suppose? Might be a little bit longer. But in that time was a bit that I forgot to tell you about the other time. I was in a small party to go to [unclear] something like that. I’ve got it down here somewhere. [pause] Oh [unclear] anyway because there was two squadrons just arrived there and they’d got the same aircraft as I’d been on and we were to give them instruction on inspections and things like that. But the Poles, general notice they were Polish. Two squadrons. And I think off hand it was 300 and 301. I think that’s what it was. We were only there for a few days giving them general instruction. They were quite pleasant. Several of them spoke English and we came away back to camp and we carried on normal camp. I was there — there I should think about four days. Three or four days.
HD: Can you tell me a bit about your journey abroad? Where did you go?
AS: Where? What?
HD: About your journey abroad. Where? Where were you sent?
AS: Oh journey abroad. Yes. When we got posted abroad we had to go to Liverpool. And we got on a troop ship there called the Mooltan. Mooltan. Mooltan. And it was an Indian ship. Indian crew and everything. And we set off from Liverpool across the Atlantic towards America. Course we got in a big massive convoy. For protection for one thing. And then we travelled down the coast, the east coast of America until we were in line with that — and I still can’t remember the name but it was where this big disease was a little while ago. One of our nurses had to go —
HD: Sierra Leone? Sierra Leone.
AS: Yeah it was on the coast of Sierra Leone and we stayed there — I suppose a day. It might have been two days. Yeah. We came out of there, went down the coast of Africa, around the Cape until we got to Durban where we got off and we were camped on the racecourse there. We were there, oh, a couple of weeks probably and then we had instructions to go back to the docks —altogether like. And it was a lovely ship we saw there. We jokingly said to one another, ‘Cor it would be nice to go on that.’ And it was a Dutch liner that had just won the Blue Band of the Atlantic. And it was a gorgeous — it was a — the little I can say about it it was a ship inside a ship so you virtually — there was little or no getting seasick which I was all the way up the coast there to — that was the Indian Ocean into the Red Sea and into the Canal where we got off at the Canal end and we were on detail where we had to go. And we had to go to a camp called Shallufa which was in the Canal Zone. Course the Canal Zone was full of aerodromes when we got there but we went to Shallufa. I was at Shallufa a little while. Not long I don’t think. And that’s when, unfortunately when I got to Shallufa I should have been with 40 Squadron but I was taken out of that and put with 37 and I moved from Shallufa into Egypt itself which was [pause] I can’t think of the name of the camp at the moment. Anyway, that’s where I joined up with the new squadron and, and —
HD: What was it like being in Egypt at that time?
AS: Nothing but really if you like to look at it in that sense — troops. There was plenty of them. The Indian, New Zealand, Aussies, English. All of them. And then we moved out of, out of the camp to join, to join some of the squadron and —
HD: What was your job whilst you were there? What did you do?
AS: It was classed as Fitter 2 ‘cause I’d taken an extra exam when I was at Binbrook. At Lindholme ‘cause my money went up which was all we was interested in in those days and joined up with the rest of the squadron there. Or a lot of the squadron.
HD: So you were part of the ground crew.
AS: Oh yes. All the time.
HD: And how many members would be in your team?
AS: Oh. There’d be quite a number really because there’d be so many to an aircraft which would include, what should we, say — airframes, engines, [pause] instruments, and who else? You didn’t see many armourers because there was no need. Only on, when they were bombing up. Oh and then there was all the people who were filling the tanks up on, on petrol. Yeah. There was quite a few of those. And then as far as I know General Wavell had the dirty played on him in a sense. We thought it was the dirty but it probably was. They took a load of his soldiers away from him and put him to, over in to Greece and the islands there. And of course the Germans got to know and that opened them up and they pushed us all out virtually in a very very short time. But the man who was in charge in those days of course, he lost his command — Auchinleck. That’s right. General Auchinleck. He took over and he, he kept drawing the Germans on and on and on and pushing us all out of it ‘til it got to part of a village where was El Alamein in the end. But Jerry couldn’t get through it all that easy because it was high hills either side. So it suited him and he stopped them there and then and we all were — Abu Sueir — that’s the camp I was thinking of. I mean we went back to Abu Sueir getting ready to — whatever was to get ready because there was a lot of heavy bombing as well. Apart from the shelling there was bombing as well of the Germans and things like that. And [pause] I don’t know whether I told you about the trick that when Auchinleck lost his command then and after a lot of umming and ahhing one man who should have got the job got killed in an air crash and Monty took over then. And he kidded the Jerries by sending a load of the troops towards the south part of Egypt. Of course when they got to know about it they, they thought, right, this is the time to have a go here but they were waiting for them so after a lot of, and it was a lot of, what shall we say? A lot of gunfire and shells and things like that they broke through and starting pushing the Jerries back. And once they started there was no stopping them. The only place that I can think of off-hand where Jerry held the troops a bit was at a place called Tobruk because the Aussies were in there. They’d taken it over. Eventually they were got out anyway. And the move still pushed on and on and on. Got to Libya and from Libya they ran into what’s the next after that? Tunisia. And like we were following up as best we could and there was one part, when we got to Tunisia we were put in camp and it was an orchard but it was on a very high slope and it was apricots. That’s it. And we made pigs of ourselves probably with the fruit but still. Unfortunately, during the night there was a cloud burst which was something you never saw in the desert but it was pretty common in Tunisia and we got flooded out. Our equipment got washed away but still we overcome it in the end and packed up ready for the next move. And our next move was — oh it was near a church there. An old fashioned church and a lot of, where a lot of burials had taken place but still we moved on towards Tunis itself then. And, oh that’s when Jerry completely packed in virtually. I think Rommel cleared it off back and got as many troops out as they could. But we as I say we was there. Oh and we had a good thing come through for us all. Or we thought it was good at the time. Half the squadron would be given three days leave in Tunis. When we’d had our three days the other half could go which they did do. And then once we all got back together again they said, ‘Right. You’re on the move. You’re going to the port now.’ And I think the port was something like Bizerte. Something like that anyway. And we boarded this American troop carrier ship and we set off from there across the Mediterranean and we were going to [pause] first we were told we were going to Cyprus. Not Cyprus. What’s the island there at the base of Italy? Anyway, it got all diverted and we went around and in no doubt — like everybody else has heard about the lady’s foot and we went right the way around to to the port where we got off. I think I made a note of that one ‘cause I couldn’t remember it.
HD: Was it Sicily where you were?
AS: Bari.
HD: Bari.
AS: We landed at Bari or Bari or whatever they liked to call it. And that’s where we loaded. We landed. It was pitch dark. It was coldish and wet but still we’d landed and we knew we were in another country virtually then and —
HD: So were you moved around quite frequently?
AS: Yes. Yeah.
HD: How often did you stay at a place?
AS: You never really knew. Might be a couple or three days. Might not be. Anyway, from — from Bari or Bari whichever it was we headed to a place more towards the middle of the country called Foggia where we unloaded everything. Our aircraft caught up with us and things like that. Where we had to have new ones we got new ones and it was a little while after we’d been there so we were virtually [pause] there’s a proper word I think was we were seconded to the Americans. They didn’t actually give orders but they were in because they’d already landed on the west coast there. And then —
HD: Can we go back a bit and when you were in these various camps. What was it like living there?
AS: There was no real camps. There were no real camps. Once we’d left Egypt there were no real camps. You made your own camps and if you were fortunate, fortunate enough to find a place that had been used by Jerry for aircraft well your aircraft could use it but there weren’t so many ‘til we got to —more till we got to where all that trouble is just lately. There. Course there was a big aerodrome just outside.
HD: So what were the living conditions like?
AS: Well it was a bit tough. It was a bit tough but if you’d got yourself equipped properly, put it that way and funnily enough the best part of your equipment then was your greatcoat because it was so cold at night and you’d pitch your tent on a bit of proper decent land and, and — of course you didn’t hang about a lot. I’ll say that. You’d get moved on and on. Libya. That’s what I was trying to think of and there was this big aerodrome just outside. We stayed quite near to that and from there as I would say we moved on towards Tunisia then and in Tunisia we was in this orchard or whatever you would like to call it until — and even we liked it a little bit because the [pause] if any aircraft had landed there at night instead of us having to guard it the mounted Arab people — they took over and they used to gallop all around the camp and make sure, make sure everything was alright.
HD: How did you get on with the people?
AS: Well you didn’t have many outsiders. They’d be your own, you’re own people mostly.
HD: You didn’t mix with the other cultures.
AS: Yeah. Yeah. You didn’t mix. Well, you didn’t, you didn’t really see many others. Like we saw these mounted Arabs but they did a good job. They saved us a lot of work. But then we moved off right into Tunis. That’s where we got the time. And then Winston Churchill came out there and he had, of course there would be a big parade as you can imagine. And he was supposed to have said, I didn’t hear him say it, but he was supposed to have said, ‘I’m going to take the air force back to England.’ But we didn’t go. So we started, once we got into Italy, the bombing started and things like that. We took —
HD: So what year was this?
AS: El Alamein was 1942. It could have been the end of — or part of 1943 and part of ‘44 probably. And we had, as I say, taken over or were at the point of taking over to liberate although we were still operating with the Wimpies, the Blenheim and things like that and it was from there I was going to tell you a little bit. It’s a bit more juicier than any other part. We’d gone up into the mountains ‘cause one of our aircraft had crashed up there and when we eventually found it because it wasn’t easy trying to find exactly where they were and when we did find it it wasn’t a sight to see. No. And some of the crew had come out of the aircraft and they were laying there nude because they’d all been robbed of their clothes and things like that and there wasn’t a lot we could do about it. We did, where possible, if I remember rightly, we took their discs off ‘cause you know you have your discs and I think we had to hand them over to the police people. Anyway, we were glad to get away from that because we, we’d had to dig our truck out a few times because of the rain and mud. Anyway, coming back off that in the hope we’d be going back to the squadron in Foggia but that got stopped. We were met at this village and — by the Redcaps. The army Redcaps. They said, ‘Sorry. Off the road.’ So we got off the road. Unfortunately, where they stood it was like a bit of a space before you saw any houses and that so we were lucky to drop into that space and the reason why we had to do that and they hadn’t started then but we heard them coming along. There was the fourth Indian div were changing sides. They were moving from the west side, that’s right, to the east side. That’s right. And that took the best part of four days because you had your tanks going through. Your armoured vehicles and guns going through. ‘Course they weren’t hard up together. There was a slight gap all the way through. And I was an NCO then and the — it appears that the village doctor said I’ll, and he must have said this to the sergeant or flight sergeant who was in charge, ‘Two of you come to dinner on Saturday.’ Or Friday. Whichever it was. Which we did — we didn’t — and it was a strange way of eating at home I’ve ever noticed. You don’t get everything put in to dishes on the table. You started, what did we start with? I think we started off with a poached egg. Then started off with some meat or sausage and that’s why everything gets put on separately. Anyway, there was a glass of wine so we didn’t mind and we stayed there with them a couple or three hours before we came out and made sure everybody else was alright. They — that had been our biggest worry when we had got pushed off the side. They were getting food rations for us all. But —
HD: What was the food like whilst you were travelling around?
AS: Well, mostly it started off with — I’ll tell you its proper name — corned beef. We used to call it desert chicken. And from there you’d probably get a tin of vegetables which was [McConicky’s?] [McConicky’s?]. That’s it. And then you’d get something else that was — for making a cup of tea. You’d get the tea and then you’d get some powdered milk in it and if you took it then you could perhaps get a bit of sugar but not very much. There was never much sugar. And you made your own tea all the time when we moved up in the desert part. We made — you made your own tea. And of course petrol being in abundance you was alright to — perhaps this is not right to say but I don’t know, I’ll tell you anyway. We used to get some petrol and you always saved a can. Empty can. And you’d put whatever you were making tea in that and set fire to the petrol and in no time because it didn’t take long to boil you made yourself a cup of tea. And that’s how that went on and it even went on when I was in Italy. We used to do that sort of thing. If we, if we’d got the rations for a cup of tea. Anyway, we got back. After they’d, it was a good four days to the Indian Div going through and all waving and things like that. They waved to us and we returned it and then we moved on back to Foggia where we had to report as best we could to everything that we knew. There wasn’t a lot to report. But the crews. Although they were all dead. There was nobody alive and the plane was virtually a write-off. The — that was the responsibility of the police. What they called the gendarmes. Something like that. And they had to see to all that. Picking them up. Taking them away. But, as I say, it was a sight.
HD: How did you feel whilst you were moving?
AS: I wouldn’t want to see it again. Anyway, we, we got away in the end and got back to camp. That’s how things were then. The Germans in Italy packed in before those in Europe. It was only a matter of probably a week if it was a week. But in that time I was notified that as I’d been abroad quite a while I was to go back to England. It wasn’t, it wasn’t a fortnight’s leave. It might have been nine days or ten days leave. Which I did do. I had to travel up there through Switzerland. Simplon Tyrol it was called and but when we got to the station we weren’t allowed to even put a foot on to the platform. We had to stay on the train as best we were.
HD: This was in Switzerland.
AS: There was crowds there to see us. We moved on from there up through the rest of France and I think I came from Dieppe actually. I think I did. Dieppe to Folkestone I was on and the rations were very poor on the train travelling and so was the trains. They were hard seats and everything else. And then I got my leave and came into England and I was fortunate to see my parents again.
HD: So what was the time difference from when you went into the air force and then you got a break? You were able to come home? Was it a few years that you hadn’t seen your parents?
AS: I got, I got — we used to get weekend leaves from Binbrook. And, oh yes we also used got seven days leave from there. At times. Not very often. But at times. But —
HD: So when you were abroad how many years was it until you saw your parents again?
AS: Four years. Yeah. And then when my leave was up I had to make my way all the way back to where I started from. I think it was Foggia again. To meet up with my squadron. That’s when the rest of the lads said, ‘Oh don’t bother to unpack. We’re on our way back to Egypt.’ And we went all the way back. First of all I went back to Shallufa again. When I got to Shallufa I saw my first Lancaster bomber. It hadn’t got any ‘drome, aerodrome squadron letters on it or anything. It was brand new. Where it had come from I wouldn’t know. And after we’d been there the first couple of days they said, ‘Would you do an inspection on that Lanc that’s there?’ Well we were working blind to a sense but we got through. We knew near enough what we had to do. Then we left that and I went all the way back to Shallufa in Egypt again.
HD: What did you think of the Lancaster bomber?
AS: Oh it looked fantastic to me. It was, it was, as I say there was, there was no painting on it for what squadron it was going to or anything. We didn’t know anything about that. But it looked fantastic. Probably a better word for us — fantastic. And anyway, we did an inspection. Signed for it because you had — in the air force you signed for everything like that. One was for a daily inspection and you’d get a weekly one and then it would get bigger and bigger and bigger when it got to umpteen hours the aircraft had done it got sent to a repair and salvage squadron which was part of your unit and of course they would virtually strip it right down. And from then on after I’d got back there had another good word — ‘You’re on your way home.’ So what we had to do again —
HD: So did you make good friends in the RAF?
AS: Oh you always do. You probably don’t make a lot of [pause] people that you would call friends but you would call them people that you knew that, well, you know, you’d get chatting to and things like that. The only friend I made in the air force was when I was at Binbrook and I remember him coming there and we got talking and he said, ‘What are you doing tonight?’ I said, ‘I’ve got enough money. I’ll go into Grimsby.’ He said, ‘Oh can I come?’ I said, ‘Yeah. If you like.’ I said, ‘We’ll catch a bus here and that’ll take us to the old bus station in Grimsby which is by the level crossing. It’s not. I think they use if for coaches now. I’m not sure. And from there we went in the Pestle and Mortar and had a pint. Perhaps we might have had two. And that’s how things were. Then we got back to camp and then it became regular that if neither of us was on duty we’d come into Grimsby. And we used to go to the old, the old dance hall there. And of course you could only get a cup of tea in there. There was no spirits or drinks. You might get a, you might get a sandwich if you was lucky but — and that’s where Owen first met Beverley’s mother.
HD: So the gentleman’s name was Owen Clark. His name. Was it?
AS: Yeah. Yeah.
HD: Yes.
AS: And as I say all the time until I was on demob we came out together. Well even when he got posted when I was in Italy I met him. We was in, in the camp and he, our SP called me out the tent, He said, ‘Somebody wants to see you.’ And it was Owen and his whole crew. All on Wimps they were. One, two, three, four, five. About five of them and he was on his way to 40 Squadron then. Oh I got him his breakfast. That’s it. And he said, ‘Well keep in touch.’ Send a message to one another whenever we can which wasn’t always easy. Not in those days because 40 Squadron was a hell of a distance away from where I was at Foggia. But that’s how things got going.
HD: But you always kept in touch after the war.
AS: We kept in touch. And then after. Well he did afterwards because I was out probably long before him and we always sent one another Christmas cards. If we didn’t send anything else we sent Christmas cards ‘cause the next I heard he’d, he’d got married to Eva. And [pause] and the next bit of bad news I got was when he passed away.
HD: What year was that?
AS: Beverley could tell you. Something six. Six at the end. What was that?
BS: ’66. ’66. 1966. [unclear]
AS: And that’s when I had, I think it — I got a feeling it was Nancy that sent me the letter anyway that said that he’d passed away and I said, oh yeah, I said to Nancy what was Eva’s phone number? And she told me and I wrote it down and I phoned her up. I said, ‘I’ll come as soon as I can for a weekend but I don’t know how soon the soon can be.’ So, I eventually got out pretty quick anyway and I travelled up and they were both here when I came in. Nancy was the older sister and they were like blood brothers if you like. Put it that way. Where one was the other one was. And ‘cause in those days you couldn’t leave your car outside. You had to lights on it at night but the lady who lived in the end bungalow said to her, ‘Oh tell him to put it on our bit of land.’ So I didn’t have to put lights on it and that’s how things went on. I stayed till, I stayed till the Monday and I had to get back then and I said, ‘I’ll been in touch.’ And I used to phone her every night or she phoned me every night.
HD: Where were you living at the time?
AS: I was living in Worcester Park which is a suburb. Well it’s in Surrey and in those days it used to be called something in the London area. And I had a few weekends up and even even took Eva or even my parents came up a few times as well because to me in those days Grimsby was a smashing place. There was no hustle and bustle of traffic like there was in London and there was no what shall we say? Rowdyism as there is now unfortunately. And I came up and after a few weekends Eva and I decided to get married. And she — and I always remember she came down to, we stayed down in London for a while and she suddenly stopped. We were in Oxford Street then. She said, ‘I’ve made my mind up.’ I said, ‘What?’ She said, ‘If you want me you’re going to have to come and live with me.’ And —
HD: So where did you first meet Eva?
AS: Pardon?
HD: Where did you first meet Eva?
AS: In Grimsby. There was Owen and I. He knew her before I did.
HD: And she was in the RAF as well?
AS: No. No. No. I think she was a busy girl working somewhere. I think she even worked in the jam factory. What was — no.
BS: She was in the laundry.
AS: Oh. But before that.
BS: No. She was in the laundry when you met her.
AS: Oh when I met her. Oh yeah. And that’s from there life began and we got married and —
HD: So is there — whilst you were in the RAF is there one experience that really stands out for you?
AS: Yeah. I suppose there was one thing could have stood out for me was they put the Wellingtons on bombing of Berlin which — it was a pushed job really. We had to fit false wings, well not wings, petrol tanks on them to take up the extra mileage they were doing but even then they never really got back. Fortunately they could land in Suffolk or somewhere like that. And we were bombing then. Oh and then there was a right panic but we never knew about the full story. Never did know. They were saying, ‘Right. We are going to bring canisters out of poison gas because Jerries’ using poison gas,’ but what they got out they put back in stock again here. They never used it. Never loaded it up. But it was, that was one of the panics that were on. Then there was another panic that was supposed to have happened because [pause] Owen and I were in the pub in the village and it came on the tannoy system, ‘Return to camp immediately everybody.’ There was quite a raid going on on Binbrook camp and it was said afterwards, I don’t know whether it was true or not because I didn’t see it but they said that one of the German aircraft landed and took off from Binbrook. ‘Cause there was no real runway at Binbrook then. It was all open fields on top of the hills there and they said one landed and took off again. Whether it was a leg pull on there but I think there could have been some truth in it.
HD: So going back to when you were in Egypt and travelling around Africa — when you had time off duty what did you do?
AS: Never had time off. You might have done if you was at base camp and you might say, ‘Oh let’s pop into Cairo for a couple of hours,’ or something like. But once you got on the move there was no — no leisure time as such. We had our own leisure to make do which you either played cards or, and things like that which was got through a bad hour or two. But normally all the good news come if you were at base. If you were at base they might say well nothing for you today like. Tonight. And you might say, ‘Oh well we’ll pop in. Into Cairo or anything like that.
HD: How did you feel when you were on these trips? How did you feel?
AS: Oh not bad because I got to know a nice little café in Cairo where we used to go and have our breakfast if we were early. And it, cor, the chap there used to pile us up and really looked, he didn’t mind. He’d say, ‘Oh if you’re hungry during the day come back. I’ll see what I’ve got,’ And things like that. He was a, he was a real gentleman actually. And that’s what he used to say, ‘Oh come back and have something to eat.’ But mostly if we went there, there was, on the corner of one of the main roads was — was like a restaurant really. You could go in even then and have a drink or whatever you wanted. And I always remember being in there one night, Owen and I, and some bigwigs — Egyptians — came in and sat quite near us actually but we didn’t know them or who they were. Though the boss did tell us that one of them was later to become one of the presidents but he was talking to us in the pub and well they even offered to buy us a drink. Which, we probably said yes. And that was it. But actually what his name was I didn’t really know but if that was him I remember him coming in and talking to us and things like that. ‘Cause —
HD: Were you ever frightened whilst you were working?
AS: Frightened? You might be a bit. Not necessarily frightened. You might be a bit edge on whether there was going to be a raid or not or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah. You’d be concerned. I wouldn’t say frightened because to be frightened — it’s a funny word I think when there’s other troops in the army. They would never use the word “frightened.” They would use the word that they [detained by?] and moving up or and we got to know quite a few army people when we were out there. As I say there was Aussies, New Zealanders, Indians, British. Moving out was quite something really. And I don’t know whether there was a photograph. Was there a photograph in there with Churchill talking? Well that was Tobruk. And we saw him coming from Tobruk. He came on to the squadron but he didn’t have anything to say. Montgomery used to ‘cause he was a [pause] nothing against him, he was a very religious type of person and if he wanted you for something if it was the whole squadron or if it was the army you had to shut your mouth ‘cause he’d say, ‘I’m doing the talking.’ And that’s how he carried on. We met him once or twice. He came in when he knew the squadron was moving on or — oh yeah. That was the sort of thing that went on but to say leisure time in the desert. No. Because if we, if we were fortunate enough to get near to the Mediterranean we could nip in and have a good splash around. Have a wash and have a swim because water was rationed. You had your water bottle that you had and the only blessing probably we had over the army lads that if we had an aircraft going back to base he’d come back with some water and probably a few bottles of wine and things like that where probably the army lads couldn’t get that sort of thing. And it was, it was in Italy that I did lose somebody that I got attached to I think. He was a wireless operator air gunner he was. Scotch lad. And he came up to me one day. He’d managed to have got hold of —whether he’d just been to base or not himself I don’t know but he’d got a bottle of wine and he said, ‘Al, will you come around my tent later on?’ which I did do. And he said, ‘It’s my twenty first today.’ So we drank this bottle up. And he said, ‘Well I’d better get ready ‘cause I’m on ops tonight.’ I said, ‘I might see you on take-off then because I shall be there.’ So he said, ‘Yeah.’ But unfortunately that was the last I saw of him. He went on to Romania that night. It was a big, big — oh a hell of a load of aircraft it was because that’s where Jerry was getting a lot of his petrol and stuff from and I think they bombed the hell out of it actually but unfortunately he must have been shot down or something like that. I don’t know but I never saw him anymore. All I know that his name was on that do at Runnymede but up to this day I can’t remember his name. There’s a lot of names I can’t remember but — and a lot of things I can’t remember.
HD: Well thank you so much for conducting this interview. It’s very kind of you.
AS: And I did like — he was a nice lad and I — things in general yeah I did like them.
HD: Good.
AS: I had some good times in the air force. I don’t know whether I told you I never regretted joining the air force. A lot of people did. They moaned from the day they got in until the day they got out but I didn’t mind it. You had to do what you had to do and you had to do what you was told to do but there you are. Yeah. Yeah. I met quite a few — what shall we say? Well known footballers, I think, when I was in the air force. There was Dodds. And there was several of the England team in those days that I got to know. Of course a lot of them joined up at virtually the same time as I did. They were all in the same queue as it were and we got chatting as you do.
HD: Well thank you Mr Seaggar. It’s been wonderful to hear your experiences.
AS: I hope it’s been some use to you.
HD: Most definitely. Thank you very much. So the interview finished at 11.20
AS: Right. Thank you. ‘Cause as I say, the air force, I’ve no grudges against them.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alan Seagger
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Helen Durham
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-29
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Sound
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ASeaggerA160729, PSeaggerA1612
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:04:35 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
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Egypt
Great Britain
Italy
Sierra Leone
Tunisia
North Africa
Egypt--Suez
England--Lincolnshire
Italy--Foggia
Italy--Bari
Egypt--Cairo
Description
An account of the resource
Before the war, Alan was an electrical apprentice. He joined the RAF and was posted to RAF Binbrook before being posted overseas. He was at RAF Shallufa for a time and was placed with No. 37 Squadron, who moved to Egypt. There were troops of different nationalities. After Libya, he moved to Tunisia, and he reports on a visit by Churchill to Tobruk. There were difficult conditions in the camps. He discusses the food rations and an unusual way of making tea. He also describes the very few occasions when they had free time, going into Cairo and swimming in the Mediterranean.
Alan refers to the failures and successes of the commanders during this period: General Wavell, General Auckinleck and Montgomery. Alan was classed as fitter, part of ground crew. Alan subsequently sailed to Bari in Italy and then on to Foggia. He talks of going to find an aircraft which had crashed in the mountains. He did not see his family for four years. He returned to Foggia and then went back to Egypt, initially to RAF Shallufa where he was impressed with his first Lancaster. Alan describes the inspections carried out. Alan recounts a couple of his wartime experiences and the sad loss of a 21 year old wireless operator/air gunner.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
crash
fitter airframe
ground crew
Lancaster
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Binbrook
RAF Shallufa
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/647/8917/ATinsleyR150604.2.mp3
1eeab019890c4025d5470d7ef66f9a51
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Tinsley, Dick
Richard Tinsley
R Tinsley
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tinsley, R
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Dick Tinsley (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 115 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is David Kavanagh the interviewee is Dick Tilsley the interview is taking place in Mr Tilsleys home on the 4th June 2015.
DK: So can you remember which year it was, that you joined the Airforce?
RT: Yeah, it must have been 1944 I suppose.
DK: 1944...so how old would you have been then?
RT: Mmm 20
DK: So what were you doing prior to that? Were you in education?
RT: Education I suppose and Public Schooling so yes i was.
DK: So what school was that?
RT: In Northampton, one of the public schools [pauses] we farmers were often sent to these public schools.
DK: And what was your reasoning for wanting to join the airforce?
RT: Well I knew I was going to mmm I had....errr my family had always been in farming and we lived at Moulton, do you know where Moulton is?
DK: Yes, yeah
RT: Near Holbeach and my Mother came from Northamptonshire as a Farmer's daughter and they got married had three sons, and I was the third. The eldest one had got set into Farming before the war started, and when the second one came in he'd already joined the Territorials
DK: Right
RT: Only assuming only being , mmm what do you call it [?] patriotic I think and of course they were the best people, you know, the go getters, they they wanted to do something like that. We went to Lincoln and they just paraded around a bit once upon a [unclear] that sort of thing. So when war declared they were called up straight away.
DK: Yeah?
RT: I was at home ,still at school I think then I remember the local err army [what do you call it] Anti-aircraft unit?
DK:Yep
RT: Arrived in our park which was was just a field that's all, and they set up shop and searchlight and I thought it was wonderful, good old war, as I was about 16 or something but i think we had all heard so much about the first war and the blood and guts of the trenches anything to get out of that or get into what soppy thing there was going at school, anything was soppier than trenches.
DK; had your Father been in the First World War?
RT: No
DK; No?
RT: I lost an uncle
DK: An uncle ok
RT: In other words his brother-in-law he got in perhaps he was drafted, or...I never knew him and he was sent to the front and they were resting in a barn behind the line as the Germans dropped a shell on them and he was wounded in the back and died.
DK:Oh dear
RT: Yeah that's the second time....and emmm it might have been the other.....
DK: So you've decided to join the airforce then, yeah?
RT: Mmm I was at school it was quite a rough military day bolshing you bossing you , so I had a rifle for the day you had one...you had one err you had one year, day a term which they did sort of military exercises.
DK: Right.
RT: And erm and so and of course when they started the air force thing it was much more lexid to go out to aerodromes and in [unclear] and all that and err when it came to been called up and then we were eventually called up and went to grading [?] station.
DK: Right.
RT : That was in Bedfordshire somewhere and then we were sworn in and all that, then we went to London and Lords cricket ground where they did injections for you and all that sort of thing. After that I decided , [unclear] decided what are they going to do with you, I don't know how well we passed, I don't think we knew but it was good enough.
DK: Yeah, err you went in immediately then for err pilot training, was that …..?
RT: Well everybody was yeah
DK: Everybody together right
RT: Yeah
DK: So….
RT: On the whole the navigator was the second most err posetic and brightest then you get the wireless op ,then the bomb aimer then gunner. They hadn't got me on on to being a pilot yet because then they sent you, if you passed that pilot you went to a grading school just near coventry, it's not too far from here, where you did twelve hours flying, and err they assessed you as to whether you were fit for pilots training.
DK: And that the first time you were at the controls?
RT: Yes.
DK: Flying?
RT: Yes it was a Tiger Moth.
DK: Tiger Moth yeah.
RT: Then they sent you home and waited until they wanted to call you up to go to Canada. So they sent us to the Queen Mary which was docked at the Clyde and we cruised across to Canada, you might say this was a dangerous trip I suppose they were getting away with taking these fast liners and risking getting in the old....errrr caught up in the German submarines.
DK: Mmmm yeah
RT: Which how they got away with it I don't know but they did get away and they filled them full and on the return journey they were full of American troops absolutely jammed full bringing them over for D-day which was quite a lot we did, anyway .....and then what happened?
DK: You've got to Canada...
RT: And err [coughs] forgive me muttering but i've got a very weary brain.....I don't mind the weary brain....but....
DK: That's ok take your time.
RT: It's... errr….
DK: You've arrived in Canada then?
RT: Yeah there was a PDO a personnel reception centre.
DK: Right.
RT: Which was a whole aerodrome full of personnel, err personnel huts where they held you, and kept you amused, held parades, this, that and the other until they got an airfield to send you too, and that you didn't get any decision on that at all you just do when you're told that was about four days out to Regina that's roughly where we were at, dead centre of Canada, in the Prairies.
DK: Right, right.
RT: You got contact with them then ?
DK: No.
RT: Oh... then they had a course on a single engine plane which was a thing called a Cornell.
DK: Cornell yeah.
RT: A Fairchild Cornell yes.
DK: It’s listed in your logbook. Cornell
RT: Yeah....is it there?
DK: It's in there yes...you are doing aerobatics there.
RT: Mmmm...
DK: Did you like the Cornell?
RT: Yes, yes.
DK: Doing acrobatics there.
RT: Yes, then some went down to America.
DK: Right.
RT: The Americans were helping us out you see, then they went over to single engine planes but I never went on that.
DK: So how long were you in Canada for then?
RT: I was there 10 months.
DK: Really [emphasis]?
RT: Yeah well that was because, well that was a good do because I was out of the war for 10 months and things went by and .....[laughs].
DK: Do you remember much about Canada?
RT: Yeah yeah.......didn't matter to me it was as cold as could be in winter [laughter]and er that whole...that whole aerodrome belonged to the British, well it belonged to the the Canadian air force but that where the RCAF came in.
DK: Oh right I see yeah yeah.
RT: Then, then after we finished that we went on to what we called Senior flying training corps which was fast that one,er.... it was err was what do you call it, sometimes I think of these things and sometimes can't, Richard doesn't help as he wasn't there?
DK: There's an aircraft called the Crane here....
RT: Yeah that's it, the Cessna Crane.
DK: It seems like you were flying Ansons and Cranes.
RT: Ansons were British aeroplanes, if we did anything in training, in training Cranes then after 6 months, can't think what would take all that time but it would...
DK: Looking at the log book there are a lot of flights on the Crane right through February 1944.
RT: Yeah that would be.
DK: Nearly everyday.
RT: Yeah that would be, that was a twin engine plane they were sort of the general idea that was for Bombers.
DK Then the Anson from March 1944?
RT: I don't know, I don't remember that, I honestly don't remember the Anson, there wouldn't be many they were British versions...........they come out of date as far as a Bomber came they were our efforts for getting the war to have a good bomber Avro, Avro [emphasis].
DK: Avro Anson yeah?
RT: Yeah.
DK So you've then come back to England?
RT: Yes I came back.
DK: Was that on the Queen Mary again?
RT: No, it wasn't
DK: Arrh another ship?
RT: Yes, I can't remember the name of it, but it will be on there I should think, [pause] it could have been any of those but it will be on there I'm sure.
DK: Yeah, I can't find it at the moment. It says here you went to Derby then?
RT: What for?
DK: Barniston?
RT: Burnaston.
DK: Burnaston, sorry.
RT: Burnaston yes, that was a flying course within UK conditions, Burnaston.
DK: So was it a big difference, flying in Canada than flying in the UK?
RT: Mmmm I remember one of the Australian, Canadian he was in charge of us on the area, he said "yous boys in the old country, say you'll get lost" [laughter].
RT: Then of course at that time we were relying on the Canadians services far more.
DK: Then you come back to Burnaston?
RT: Mmm.
DK: Then you are flying de Havilland 82. Do you remember much about that?
RT: I don't, I'll see if i can recall it.
DK : It's the Dominie I think?
RT: Oh dear, DH yeah....[pause] flying around training again.
DK: It says its number 22 EFTS is that familiar?
RT: It's familiar but....
DK: I've noticed you.....
RT: I rather think it was a twin engine.
DK: A twin engine yeah, and then you got the Dakota here.
RT: Ah that….
DK: RAF Leicester East.
RT: The war had ended.
DK: Arrh ok.
RT: Leicester East was the Transport Command place, and...
DK: Sorry I'm jumping ahead of myself here.
RT: And, they sent us out to Cairo, in these Dakotas but they were going to have to organise what they conquered in the Middle East, so one fine day they flew overnight to the centre of Cairo airport.
DK Really?
RT: And, err...
DK: So just going back a little bit here, February 1945 you’re with the Heavy Conversion Unit.
RT: Yes.
DK: At Langar, 1669 heavy conversion unit, err, was that the first time you saw the Lancaster?
RT: Well it wasn't in my case, but ........ but it was really but from somewhere I just had a day out with them , we just had a trip.
DK: What did you think when you first saw the Lancaster, laid eyes on it first saw it? Did it fill you with confidence?
RT: Yeah i think so, i don’t I can't remember anything about that bit or the bit we did, then until the war ended or rather until the ...err.
DK: Do you remember much about Langar and the Heavy Conversion Unit?
RT: No,no we just arrived and we were got into crews, we were all old soldiers at that time.
DK: I’m just noticing here you have got a mention of an engine fire.
RT: Yes I presume that there was.
DK: You help put out a fire, do you remember that? [ laughter]
RT: No i don't at all.....
DK: Come on.....drive it down....poke him, poke him [laughter].
RT: I do remember it now, but I can't say I'd remember otherwise.
DK: Do you remember much about the incident of the engine fire?
RT: No, not at all it was over Wales.
DK: Over Wales?
RT: It was on a training trip over Wales I'd forgotten all about it.
DK: You landed ok though?
RT: Yes, and that was it no doubt it was only a scare, or something but anyway well whatever it was the fire extinguisher put it out and it wasn’t long till we got back to the airfield.
DK: So following the log book then you then joined 115 Squadron at Witchford.
RT: Yeah.
DK: Do you remember much about Witchford?
RT: Yeah it was 3 miles outside Ely typical wartime airfield built in 19....built just near where I went to school, where I went to school is.
DK: Coincidence [laughter].
RT: Witchford, I gathered from reading books later that there was two squadrons stationed there, so obviously they built airfields, bomber airfields as fast as they could.
DK: So I'm looking at the logbook here it's got March the 18th, would that have been your first operation there? Its Buschstrass?
RT: Bruchstrasse.
DK: Bruchstrasse, sorry.
RT: Apparently it was an oil refinery in the Ruhr, we weren't told very much about about it, except that we missed it.
DK: Oh [laughs].
RT: Apparently the beam was set, they had got it wrong.
DK: Right
RT: But anyway plenty of them missed, yep.
DK: Well, it says here it was a daylight raid, got in brackets there day, so you were flying in the day?
RT: Yeah a bit of both.
DK: Right ok.
RT: They were the...red were night and….
DK: Right.
RT: What does that say?
DK: Thats green.
RT: what does that say?
DK: That's err Heligoland?
RT: Yeah that's an island south of Hamburg somewhere.
DK: So there was two operations to kill on the 9th and 13th April.
RT: Yes i suppose so, yes.
DK: Do you remember much about those?
RT: No i dont, we were just told by the bomb aimer afterward that we didn't hit the target presumably we couldn't see it, we weren't told much, then the war ended.
DK: So then into May then, so there's 1, 2, 3, 4 so that looks like about 5 operations.
RT: Yeah.
DK: Does that sound about right?
RT: Yeah.
DK: So five operations and then three operation Manna operations?
RT: Yeah.
DK: Does that sound about right, so do you remember much about Operation Manna? How did that make you feel knowing you were dropping food rather than bombs?
RT: I’m sure it made you feel very good, we didn't know what we was in for first time, we was going to Germany with bombs at 20,000 feet and the next day we were going ten hundred feet or whatever it was over the Hague or Dane Hauger [?] whatever the Danes call it.
DK: The Hague , so the food drops were at low level then?
RT: Yes well as low as they dare because it mustn't burst they were either in double sacks or whatever they chose.
DK: Do you remember seeing the people on the ground?
RT: Yeah.
DK: And what were they doing?
RT: Waiting for something to happen, to see what they could get.
DK: Were they waving?
RT: Yeah.
DK: So you could see all that?
RT: Oh yes I can clearly remember one plane flying nearly along side us they got a sack a sack of food stuck in his bomb bays when he came back no doubt it got dropped in somewhere.
DK: So at that point then the war in Europe had ended?
RT:yeah just.
DK: Just yes.
RT: I think you will see that's there the.....
DK: What were your feelings at that time then were you.....?
RT: Without a doubt very pleased now that's ...one thing that's quite interesting coz those crew members there about three of them so bored with things presumably they were somewhat aware it wasn't really dangerous anymore, they wanted to see the their names up on the list… I was one if I had a job to do I'd do it, I probably wanted the job but didn't want to be the end bit the end bit of meat.
DK: So how long after the war then did you stay in the air force? Was it another…..
RT: As little as possible.
DK: You wanted to get out did you?
RT: Yes yes, I never wanted to get in and I just was a good boy did as I was told and passed exams as I was supposed to.
DK: So can you remember what year you actually left?
RT: Oh, now that would be, it will be in there somewhere [refers to logbook].
DK: You are still here, 1947.
RT: It would be then, it was the Spring.
DK: So you left in 1947? Thats after a period in the Middle East?
RT: Yeah we were sitting about the helm a lot doing nothing, because they over calculated the amount of aircraft they had to keep in the Middle East to keep things working.
DK: They had to find you something to do.
RT: Yes find us something to do, pity really it was a stage of one's life when you wanted to get on with something.
DK: Just going back to the end of war in Europe, at that period was there any mention to you about perhaps having to go out and fight in the Far East?
RT: No.
DK: You didn't no.
RT: No the others who went back, straight away and they split us all up, no doubt I'd go for a longer leave at home, but they kept very strictly to this, what do you call it? Code of release by time and… when your number came up because you had been in for so long, and you were so old or so I’d got out.
DK: So how old would you have been when you left?
RT: Forty Six [?].
DK: And after that did you go back into farming at that point?
RT: Mmm, yeah all that time sitting in the Middle East for about a year, sitting on my bum really. It was in the desert I got jaundice, nothing apart from a waste of time for everybody, I could see what the plan was, it was just they wanted things to be able to go to North Africa someone to go down to Nairobi and do this or that. [pause] Have you seen any other log book?
DK: I have seen some, yeah quite a few.
RT: They are all pretty similar.
DK: Yeah they are more or less the same yeah, so how do you look back on that period now?
RT: A waste of my youth and pretty boring, I was stationed at Ely, there wasn't much at Ely. It wasn't even far from home that wasn't.
DK: Did you used to pop back home when you could?
RT: Mmmm.
DK: Yeah because it down the road, that was something.
RT: Well there wouldn’t be the transport for it but I got home somehow, if you had a motorbike you'd be home in an hour or so.
DK: You had a motorbike then did you?
RT: I didnt no, there wasn't any petrol for one thing.
DK: That's true, ok well thanks you very much for that I will stop this now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dick Tinsley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-04
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ATinsleyR150604
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:29:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Dick was from a farming background and joined the Royal Air Force in 1944. After going to Bedford, he was sent to Lord’s cricket ground. Those passing as a pilot went to a flying school near Coventry to be assessed for pilot training on a Tiger Moth. Canada followed, where Dick went to a personnel reception centre and then an airfield in Regina. He did a course on a Cornell and then went to a senior flying training corps on a Crane.
After returning to England, Dick did a flying course at RAF Burnaston. In February 1945 he went to 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Langar with Lancasters. He helped to put out an engine fire on a training trip over Wales. Dick then joined 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford. He recalls a daylight operation to an oil refinery in the Ruhr. A target was also missed in Heligoland. There were two operations to Kiel. He was involved in Operation Manna to The Hague. Dick was sent to RAF Leicester East after the war had ended and flew C-47. He was sent to Cairo. Dick left the RAF in Spring 1947.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Coventry
England--Derbyshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Nottinghamshire
Canada
Saskatchewan
Saskatchewan--Regina
Germany
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kiel
Great Britain
Netherlands--Hague
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1947
115 Squadron
1668 HCU
bombing
C-47
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Burnaston
RAF Langar
RAF Leicester East
RAF Witchford
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/955/9586/PCoultonWA16010023.1.jpg
5e820c8b2b685a073f3a6632c80c45fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Coulton, William. Album
Description
An account of the resource
The album covers the period from 1943 to 1946. Includes training course, his wedding, pictures from RAF Witchford as well as post war pictures taken in the Middle East: Palestine, Egypt and Transjordan.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCoultonWA1601
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cairo views
Description
An account of the resource
Top left - view across a quiet street to the Cairo Citadel. There are a few pedestrians and palm trees in the foreground. Captioned ‘The Citadel’. Top right - in the centre is a roundabout with guards at the side of the road and pedestrians on pavements. There is almost no traffic. In the middle is a bridge leading to large buildings on the other side of the river. Captioned ‘Bridge Kasr el Nil’. Centre - view across a street scene looking towards a large ornate building. Horse/donkey and cart on left and pedestrians in front of building. Captioned ‘Arabic Museum’. Bottom left - to the left side a mosque with dome and two minarets. To the right the Al-Rifa'i Mosque with a dome and two minarets behind it. Captioned 'Mosque of Rifal'. Bottom right - view of the Al-Azhar Mosque. In the foreground a street with trees and pedestrians. Captioned 'Mosque of Azhar'.
Format
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Five b/w photographs mounted on an album page
Type
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Photograph
Text
Identifier
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PCoultonWA16010023
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
North Africa
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/955/9587/PCoultonWA16010024.1.jpg
c57db58a6d5f4c3c12e5dd0b9b022ae9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Coulton, William. Album
Description
An account of the resource
The album covers the period from 1943 to 1946. Includes training course, his wedding, pictures from RAF Witchford as well as post war pictures taken in the Middle East: Palestine, Egypt and Transjordan.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCoultonWA1601
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cairo and Egypt
Description
An account of the resource
Top left - three pyramids with the largest on the right. Captioned 'Pyramids of Giza'. Top right - in the centre the Sphinx with two pyramids behind. Captioned 'The Sphinx of Giza with the pyramids of Cheops & Kephern [sic]'. Centre - street scene with several figures in Arab dress in foreground. In the background a street with multistory buildings either side. Captioned 'Street Scene'. Bottom left - a group of airmen mostly standing with three kneeling in front. In the background Nissen huts. Captioned 'The boys of hut 28, Ein Shemer'. Bottom right - nine airmen in desert uniform sitting on a vehicle. Captioned ‘ “Pat”, “Les”, “Ticker”, Bob, Arthur, Fred, Gilly & Jock’.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCoultonWA16010024
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Israel
Israel--ʻEn Shemer
North Africa
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eng
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/734/10732/ACattyMA180822.2.mp3
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Catty, Martin Arthur
M A Catty
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19 items. An oral history interview with Martin Catty (b. 1923, 1802887, 164193 Royal Air Force), log books, photographs, service documents, maps, and folders containing navigation and Gee charts. He flew operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Martin Catty and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2018-08-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Catty, MA
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MC: Start. Yes.
DE: Start so this is an interview with Martin Catty. My name is Dan Ellin. It’s the 22nd of August 2018 and we are at Riseholme Hall. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. So, Martin would you mind telling me a little bit about your early life and what you did before you joined Bomber Command?
MC: Yes. What I can recollect. I lived in Hendon in London and went to a prep school locally and then afterwards to a prep school in Surrey, at Crowthorne and then on to Highgate School in London where I was until we were evacuated to Westward Ho at the beginning of the war and we took over mostly what United Services College had left at Westward Ho. You know, Stalky and Co and all that. There was the Kingsley Gymnasium and places like that and we took over certain cafes for classrooms and, and so forth. And then after I had taken my O levels we got this visit from the RAF offering us a short course at university to do the Initial Training Wing stuff at, on the short course and study either engineering or other, other more academic subjects I suppose. Anyhow, and therefore that was lasting six months from, from April ‘42 to about September ‘42. I was at Pembroke College, Cambridge for that and then after that course where I apparently did, compared to some of the others quite well which meant that at the end of the war I was invited to go back to Cambridge University although to tell the truth I hadn't got the qualifications to do so. But I was invited back. Anyhow, so then I went to St John’s Wood where we joined the RAF proper. Got kitted out, inoculated and God knows what. Queued for about three hours in the basement of a St John’s Wood block of flats and then got posted to Sywell outside Northampton for grading. Pilot grading, you know. Where I was successful to be graded for pilot training. Then went up to [pause] No. We didn't immediately go up there. They had got all the transport at that time was being used for building up the Second Front. Therefore, we were sent up to Whitley Bay. The RAF Regiment place where they loved to get their hands on aircrew chaps [laughs] We were, I was very fortunate in being with a young Sergeant who really wanted to teach us things rather than take the Mick out of us. So we had a fortnight there and were promised Christmas leave afterwards. It was pretty awful actually because the quarters were bombed out houses, no windows, no hot water and just a blanket. So, it was and we were up in the morning, freezing morning in about December holding rifles, no gloves [laughs] Anyhow, it was. And then we were sent after that, after Christmas to Brighton which was the RAF Discip School where naughty pilots were disciplined and so forth and we spent about a fortnight there I think waiting for transport to turn up. The only, well visible thing I think [pause] I remember being put on jankers for something but I can't remember what it was for [laughs] And we won a drill competition so we were allowed leave to go to London where my parents lived. And then in, we were sent up to Heaton Park in Manchester which was a sort of transit camp on the way to Canada. And from there we went to West Kirby somewhere where we were, no, to Liverpool. We were taken out on a tender to a big ship on the, well a small ship on the horizon but as it got nearer and nearer it turned out to be the QE which of course was never fitted out as a passenger ship. It was fitted out immediately as a troop ship because it had only just been launched before the war. So we went out to Canada on that. About six hundred of us jammed into this little batch of cabins in the middle with about four bunks high. Twenty four to a cabin, I think and the whole ship, rest of the ship was empty except for the officers wives upstairs where I fortunately got as a duty baggage party which meant I went down the hold to get a trunk that some officer’s wife had said she didn't want during the journey and suddenly realised she did [laughs]. So we, well we, it was very easy manhandling because as the ship came down you could take a great big trunk, jam it on the companionway and then you could handle. It had the advantage that at the end of the trip when we landed at New York the rest of the people went straight up to Canada but we were given an extra day in New York to get the luggage and so forth and then taken up to Moncton in New Brunswick in Canada the next day. Or taken up, we were put on board a plane where the Canadian flight lieutenant wanted to impress us how good Canada was and we were treated very well. Then we walked into the camp and I remember being greeted by some corporal, ‘Oh, Catty MA. Martial Arts are you? Oh right.’ [laughs] So all my life I’ve been, wanting to be, I am now Master of Arts anyhow [laughs] but, and then we were posted to Virden in Manitoba. EFTS where we did the, obviously the Elementary Flying Training. We got through that alright. No problems really.
DE: What aircraft were you flying there?
MC: Tiger Moths.
DE: Right.
MC: Yeah. The Tiger Moths at Grading School of course was one without a canopy. Open cockpits. The one in Canada had canopies because of the very low temperatures we flew in even at low heights. I mean it was sometimes minus forty below. Things like that. So anyhow I got through that alright. In fact, I got the Ground School Award which I think stood me in bad stead later on but be that as it may [laughs] and got posted on to SFTS at Brandon which was not far from Virden actually. And then I was within about a month of completing the pilot’s course when I unfortunately was in the flight hangar when somebody arrived from Central Flying School to do, to grade the station and the chap they had selected to go up with him wasn't there so they sent me up with him and he didn't like it. In the end he said my flying was too mechanical. So I ceased flying training as a pilot, went to a manning depot, also in Brandon which was a terrible, well we were in a cattle market with about, God knows how many, four hundred people sleeping in a cattle market with bunks about four high and they’d got nothing to do with us except send us for route marches [laughs]
DE: Not very pleasant then.
MC: No. And of course, because we’d ceased flying training you lost your flying pay so we were on two thirds of the pay we were used to. So you could hardly afford to have a beer let alone anything else. However, that lasted about a month before I eventually got a posting to Winnipeg. Number 5 AOS. Where we flew Ansons which was not the plane I was on at the SFTS. That was a Cessna Crane. And well, I suppose I spent the usual course. When we graduated at the end of it we were not sent home because all the transport again was tied up with Second Front sort of thing and then they sent us, most unusually on leave.
DE: Right.
MC: Went to Niagara, went to New York. I had an uncle who lived in Stamford Connecticut so I went with him but they dressed for dinner so I couldn't stand that [laughs] I don't know why I'm telling you all this.
DE: No. It's interesting. It’s great stuff.
MC: Really? [laughs] And so, eventually we got on the Andes to come back from, I think it was, was it Halifax? I can't remember the port. Whatever. Which was basically an almost flat-bottomed thing designed for going up the Amazon and rolled like mad. Again, because I forgot to say this but when we went on the short course one of the promises was that when you graduated you'd be commissioned so of course we did get commissioned which meant of course we didn't get our uniform. So the people who didn’t get commissioned got flocked around by all the ladies of New York whereas we looked like erks and didn't get any.
DE: Oh dear.
MC: That didn’t matter. Anyhow, we left, I think on the 30th March ’44. The day of the Nuremberg raid because as we were sailing out of the harbour the 9:00 o'clock news came on and it said ninety odd of our aircraft were missing or something and we said, ‘Turn it around.’ [laughs] However, we eventually got back and went to Harrogate to get kitted and get the uniform and so forth. Just arrived in time to be best man at my brother’s wedding. My elder brother who was also in the RAF. I'd only had my uniform for about a week and then got posted to OTU at Chipping Warden. And there as I mentioned to someone else some of the aircraft were pretty ropey. They were Wellingtons. We called them Wimpies.
DE: Yes.
MC: 1Cs and things like that and one of them actually the wing fell off in the air, you know. So it’s, but I don't know, one I’ve accepted these things. And I crewed up, of course at that stage and I crewed up with this Canadian skipper, Flight Lieutenant Ness, Johnny Ness. There’s a photograph of him. I don't remember the actual process of being selected. Who went with whom. I think the skipper probably said, ‘Oh, that chap.’ I don't know but, so after getting crewed up etcetera at OTU, one or two weren’t because the Wimpy would not take seven people of course as crew. I think the gunners joined us later. Went to Con Unit, conversion to four engine aircraft at Stradishall and then on to Lanc Finishing School. LFS at Feltwell. Then got posted to Number 514 Squadron at Waterbeach and that's how I have arrived at Waterbeach.
DE: Right.
MC: And then we, I mean quite frankly at the time I got there which was about October ’44, somewhere like that it was, the chop rate had fallen right down to a very low rate. Something like five percent. Something like that. Whereas it was of course at times very, the chance of finishing a tour of opps was very [pause] but we were. So I’ve got to say it was a fairly easy time we had there. It was 3 Group and 3 Group concentrated on GH bombing. I don't know if you are aware of that. Basically, Gee was navigation which I think relied on ground stations sending out signals which the aircraft reflected and we bombed on GH which was the aircraft transmitting the ground through reflecting. I think I've got that the right way around. I'm not sure. So, in fact, as navigator since we did a lot of daylight raids over the Ruhr I used to release the bombs more than the bomb aimer. I think I did more daylights than night trips. I'm sure I did. The logbook will —
DE: We’ll have a look at your logbook.
MC: But I think I finished my tour in March, something like that and I joined, Waterbeach was also number 33 base which controlled two other stations. Mepal and Witchford I think, and I joined the base test crew which tested all Lancasters coming in to the base whether Waterbeach or going to one of the others as navigator which of course wasn't a very great amount of navigation to do. And that's where I more or less was when as I hear [John Toddy], the chap I flew with on Lancasters who I was very pally with said to me, ‘I volunteered you for ferrying aircraft, Lancs out to the Far East.’ And it was going to be done in three stages. UK to Egypt, Egypt to India and India to Burma or wherever they were going to be used. But in, so having been sent to Morecambe to get kitted out with, I mean, you know, shorts and everything else and having inoculations, Yellow Fever, goodness knows what else they cancelled it because it was obviously getting to the stage, getting near VJ Day and it wasn't needed anymore. But we were, being in [unclear] by that time. We went to Talbenny in Wales first. I think, I can’t remember, again, it was number 1630. Anyhow, whatever unit we were and then that was transferred to Dunkeswell in Devon which was an American base up to that stage. One of the things of course that may be amusing I don't know but we found a whole lot of lovely American leather boots. You know, booties or whatever you want to call them. They were wonderful. And they were all left foot. There wasn’t a right foot amongst them [laughs] which wasn’t very [laughs] Anyhow, that’s just in passing. From there on our crew got selected to take a ground crew from Air Ministry out to the Middle East to train all the various Middle East ground crew stations how to service Lancs. So we took the Lanc out to [Khormarksar]. Whatever. Wherever we landed we’d say goodbye chops see you in a fortnight's time. They did their job teaching the crews and we did well when we went where we liked. More or less. Although it was the time of the troubles. We had to wear sidearms. You know, the Palestine and Israel. Palestine troubles. Went to several stations out there. Shaibah. In fact, I had my birthday at Shaibah if I remember rightly. And well eventually got back obviously at Christmas. And a little tale, I don't suppose it’s really amusing but we, in Cairo a Liberator landed and we knew the crew because they were from Waterbeach. And so we got flown back supernumerary crew to Waterbeach. So we went out to the brewery tap there where we knew the landlord and the skipper produced a bottle of Curacao or something like that and said, ‘Here you are lad. This is for you.’ And the voice from the back, which turned out to be the Customs man said, ‘That doesn't look like fresh fruit either.’ [laughs] Right. So thereafter my skipper got demobbed and I was, well in time I got crewed up or went as navigator with Wing Commander Tubby Baldwin who, we were flying an Anson 19, I think it was, out to Cairo to Misr Airlines. It was fitted out as a passenger aircraft. So we lobbed down in several places on the way obviously. Got to Cairo and ended up, I ended up training as instructing pilots in BABS, Blind Approach Beacon System. The radar system that had just been brought out and I went to Melbourne in Yorkshire and Bramcote in Warwickshire, you know. Obviously, there was a pilot with the pilot training. We were telling them what to do and how to use it and so forth. And that's how I ended my career in the RAF.
DE: Right. So when were you, when were you released? When were you demobbed?
MC: Either September, October. I think it was October ‘46 when I went up to Cambridge because they’d asked me if I’d like to go back.
DE: Right.
MC: And I managed to do it on normal release. I didn't have to take out Class B release did they call it or something where you went for early release. But anyhow I spent three years at Cambridge which I did some studying. But I really wasn't qualified because I hadn't got the maths training. It was really necessary. Particularly at Cambridge for an engineering course because not only did you now have to use a formula. You knew how to, you were taught how to derive the formula. You know, you were never taught really how to use things.
DE: Right.
MC: So, anyhow that was my, the end of my service with the RAF.
DE: So, what did you do after university?
MC: I went as a, to GEC in Birmingham, Witton, Birmingham, on a graduate apprenticeship course and then took jobs in management supervisory sort of rather than using my engineering studies as such where more my training to be able to think things through. And stayed in, if you like in management until we moved around once or twice but I stayed with GEC the rest of my career.
DE: Ok. Wonderful.
MC: I think I held the very rare distinction of turning a Tiger Moth upside down.
DE: Oh, you must tell me about that.
MC: Well, I was out solo. Out solo and I saw this black line on the horizon. I thought that's a bit strange. What's that? And then it got bigger and bigger and I suddenly realised it was a dust storm approaching. Fortunately, I was upwind of the station so I just landed as the storm hit us. The wind was so great that my ground speed landing was something like five knots or ten knots and it was very [pause] and you know you, and you were surrounded so as I turned across wind to go towards the flight hangar, the wind got under the tailplane, lifted the tailplane, got under the wing and the tailplane went over so slowly. I heard the, there was a fuel gauge on the top wing of a Tiger Moth and that went and then the prop broke and there I was upside down. Nothing on the clock. And the ground crew came out and said, ‘Oh, okay. Are you alright?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, I'm glad as you came you didn't release your belt. The last chap who did this fell down and broke his hip.’ [laughs] So, and then I was released out and then the doc came out, the MO. ‘Taxiing accident?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Do you feel alright?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Cheerio.’ By that time the ground crew had gone. There I was in the middle of the ‘drome with my parachute slung over my shoulder walking back all the way to the flight. Fortunately, I was greeted by the flight commander who said. ‘Don't worry Martin. I’ve done it in a prop myself.’ He said, ‘The ground crew should have been on your wing almost as soon as you'd landed. It wasn't your fault.’ So I didn't get any trouble from that.
DE: So, no black mark against you.
MC: No. So I don't think there are any more interesting, well if that's of interest I don't know but be at that as it may.
DE: Is it OK if we just go back through a few things?
MC: Yes. Certainly.
DE: I’ll ask you a few questions.
MC: Yeah.
DE: You know, you said that when, I think you were in Brighton you, you were put on jankers.
MC: Well, I can't remember why I was put on jankers. I think some cheeky remark I made of some sort and some Warrant Officer heard it and it wasn't too bad. It was peeling potatoes and things like that you know but of course the other thing I don't know what the local population said because we were up early and the PE instructor would take us for drill before breakfast and he sang, ‘Come on you wankers.’ [laughs] And the local population [laughs] had to listen to this. However, and then at Brighton we, as I say we managed to be the Flight that did the best drill so we were given a pass to have a forty eight hour pass for the weekend in London. But the actual reason I can’t because we were stationed in the Grand Hotel but we ate in the Metropole Hotel. I can't remember much more about it.
DE: Never mind.
MC: Yeah.
DE: Could you tell me a little bit more about what life was like at Waterbeach?
MC: Yeah. Well, it was very pleasant. The food was good. Mind you I was obviously commissioned so in the officer’s mess and therefore we were just, I would say we had twice as good food as the general population if not more. We were looked after very well from that point of view. You could get in to Cambridge very easily. There was transport in to Cambridge. It was an enjoyable life I’ve got to say. Ok. And at that time the operations were not that scary, you know.
DE: What were they like?
MC: Well, most of it I was, being a navigator I was immersed in my charts and Gee screens and things like that. Never looked out of the aircraft from one moment to the next and therefore, it was quite easy. Because of my flying experience and pilot training I used to give the skipper a bit of relief once we were over friendly territory and takeover the aircraft. In fact, there’s a picture of me sitting in the pilot's [pause] which was all very good but I’d be there for about half an hour or so until we were getting a bit nearer the station, the ‘drome and I had to get busy, get back and cook my log like mad as if I’d been actually navigating. Which was alright at times except a lot of the logs have comments on them. ‘You should have done more.’ Got more. And the reason I didn't was because I was piloting the aircraft [laughs] Which was alright. There was one time. Oh, by that time we had H2S, right, which the bomb aimer could was using to navigate us if you like while I was not navigating which was all very well until the one time he mistook, I'm not sure where maybe the Dutch thing. Anyhow, for Brussels and we arrived half an hour earlier than any other plane from the squadron which took a bit of [laughs] the nav officer said, ‘Why are your winds in a different direction to everybody else?’ However, that was life. It didn't worry one at all and I've got to admit that our operational life although we were doing, the tour was forty ops at that stage not thirty and in fact, the pilot used to do forty ops because his first op was one flying with another crew to get used to it. And the rest of the crew did thirty nine. Except I didn't of course because I volunteered to be a navigator to an Australian pilot who had, his navigator was ill. So I actually did forty trips. And that was a bit of a strange crew. However —
DE: What way was that strange?
MC: Well, I'm not sure that I should tell you [laughs] In the sense that once they got up to operational height they all lit fags. Now, that was completely verboten basically but, so I didn't join them I might say partly because I probably didn't have any with me [laughs] So what? They were still a very efficient crew. Darby Monroe was his name.
DE: I know there was some American aircraft and the stories go they had ashtrays.
MC: Really? Yeah. Well, of course one of my problems which were, you know, I’ve always from my very early days I had bladder problems and it was great that the Lanc had an Elsan at the back. When I, it's very strange, probably the first half hour I would want to go about four or five times. The rest of the trip I didn't. It didn’t happen. However, and of course well I've got to say that by and large it was a very enjoyable time on operations. The only thing I ever really saw was to feel the ack ack you know under the aircraft and so forth. We lost an engine once but nothing more than that. So we had a very good, I mean he was a good skipper, Johnny Ness and he was considerably older than I was but we got on very well together and I wonder what has happened to him since but, and of course as soon as we finished the tour he got posted to Canada. Back to Canada whereas I stayed on the station. [pause] Anyhow, that’s my war experience.
DE: Ok. You mentioned it was very easy to get into Cambridge. What, what sort of things did you do when you weren’t on ops and you had some, had some time?
MC: Went to pubs [laughs] I was not a dancer so I didn't go dancing. And well, went to one or two films and things like that. But I don't really recollect that much about it except one used to drink quite a lot in those days and if you weren't going to Cambridge you went to the bar and drank it there [laughs]. But I actually met my wife at a mess party at, in the officer’s mess and when I went back to Cambridge we hooked up again and eventually got married. In fact, I got married as an undergraduate because I was on a grant of course and you got an extra, you got a married grant if you got married. I mean we —
DE: Makes sense.
MC: Were really looked after. No. We were looked after very well. But obviously partly because at school I went up the Classics side of things and only swapped to the science side because I was looking at the stage or my father was looking to get me in the Navy but in the end I went and my brother being in the RAF anyhow, and he was stationed around here. Fiskerton, I think. 49 Squadron. Which I think Coningsby maybe. Fiskerton. Scampton. Somewhere. I think all those names ring a bell to me.
DE: Right.
MC: To me.
DE: Yeah. So he joined the RAF a few years ahead of you.
MC: Two years to the day. Our birthdays are the same. Two years apart.
DE: And that's what? 13th of November.
MC: November. Yes. I was born on his second birthday.
DE: Oh wow. Easy to remember then.
MC: Yeah. But it had the snag that we got joint birthday presents.
DE: And it's close to Christmas as well.
MC: Yeah. However, but he had a very, much more, he was squadron nav officer anyhow. I think for 49 Squadron.
DE: And he flew Manchesters as well as Lancasters.
MC: Well, yes I think he started on Wimpies and then went on to Manchesters and then of course fortunately the Lanc came along and they were very glad to see the end of the Manchester. It was underpowered. The only other aircraft I think, aircraft that had a bit of a quirk was the Stirling which had gravity feed fuel feed. So if you turn the Stirling at a very steep angle or even upside down the engines would cut out [laughs]. Oh well. Anyhow you've got me talking a long time.
DE: No. No. Yeah. You’re doing, doing fantastically. You've been going nearly forty minutes. A couple of other questions. When we were looking at some of the things that you've brought in you said, you mentioned the intelligence officer, was it Tommy Thompson?
MC: Yes. Yes.
DE: Could you tell me a bit about him? What was he like? What was his job?
MC: Well, basically, of course, he came to every briefing and gave any intelligence about extra dangers on the way across or anything like that but he also he and his staff interviewed us as we, after we landed and he went through the trip and so forth. But he was a very good friend and we used to play snooker and have a drink together. But he was a nice chap. He wasn't aircrew. He was ground crew but he was, I got on very well with Tommy. I didn't, well I’m just trying to think of what other interaction there was with him. I don't [pause] No. Just a good pal in the mess.
DE: Right. Yeah. Did you know any of the other ground staff?
MC: Well, there was, the other person who wasn’t ex-flying was of course the adjutant. He was, I didn't know him very well but knew him by name. And probably the, we were exceptional in the RAF that we used to take our ground crew out for drinks in the village at Waterbeach. Meet them at a pub and take them for an evening drinks which was un, sort of other Services the officers would not socialise with other ranks whereas we were quite happy to do that. I mean we knew we relied on them anyhow. The only time I had any other problem with, I think ground crew was, I'm not sure which raid it was, a long distance one and the bomb aimer was doing the bombing because it was out of range of GH. Out of the range of Gee. And we, he opened the bomb doors and I actually said, ‘We're not there yet.’ You know. So he closed them again until we got to the target area. He’d seen a dummy target of some sort and unfortunately the camera took a picture of the bombs away when it actually opened the bomb doors and didn't. The bombs weren’t away. So when we got home we were accused of being umpteen miles short of the thing and we said, ‘No. No.’ And it came around to this why you stick to your story and the corporal photographer will be put on a charge or you don’t. So, we did stick to our story [pause] I don't think there's anything else I can add.
DE: Did you have anything to do with the medical officer there?
MC: No. I wouldn’t think so. No. No.[pause] I can't recollect anything to do with him anyhow.
DE: Again, just before we started recording we had a little discussion about there was an explosion there. Can you —
MC: Yeah.
DE: Could you tell me any more?
MC: We were in briefing at the time actually. In briefing, and we suddenly heard this explosion and of course the op was cancelled, briefing was cancelled and so forth and we heard afterwards it was a bomb that had dropped and exploded. And of course, there were casualties. In fact, I did ask Peter Smith I think who was showing us around the IBCC whether he, he knew of that and he did seem to know of it.
DE: Yes. I believe the names of the people who lost their lives in that explosion are on the Memorial.
MC: Are they? Oh.
DE: Still on with, with things on the ground you said you took the, you went out with the ground crew for drinks.
MC: Yeah.
DE: Did you always have the same aircraft and the same ground crew?
MC: No, but we, there was one aircraft we flew more than others, I think. Probably, was it C for Charlie? I can't remember. But there was that particular ground crew that we knew anyhow because they were, you know, in attendance when we got to the aircraft and so forth. So, we knew. We knew them and we used to invite them up probably once a month or something like that, you know. Not that regularly but just locally to the village, you know where there were plenty of pubs [laughs].
DE: Fantastic. What happened to your brother? Did he manage to finish his tour?
MC: He did finish. In fact, he seconded to BOAC and then in fact joined BOAC and flew with them out to South Africa as navigator and so forth and other places. But, South America mainly actually he flew come to think of it and on, oh, I don't know. What was it? No. I don’t know what his aircraft was but, and then he I think he was still with them when they became British Airways. Then they didn't want navigators anymore because the navigation in the Western Hemisphere had got to a stage, beacons and so forth and therefore he emigrated to New Zealand and joined Air New Zealand to train other navigators out there. But he, he had a far more torrid operational experience than I did.
DE: Yeah.
MC: Without a doubt. And he was 5 Group in this area.
DE: Yes.
MC: Whereas I was 3 Group, of course in, around the Cambridge area. And it was 3 Group who did the GH bombing basically.
DE: Yeah.
MC: So, as I said earlier I think I released the bombs as much as the bomb aimer did on [pause] but it was something one did. You didn’t have to think about it too deeply. And I suppose we all thought Bomber Harris was a hero and he stuck to his guns. But —
DE: What do you think about the way the Bomber Command and Harris and the campaign has been remembered?
MC: Well, it was, I've got to say that after a year or two one did wonder what one, what one was doing. Was it right or was it not? And, and of course that was general. I mean, that’s why Bomber Command took a long time to be recognised. Because people didn't want to talk about it and they were of course one or two instances where things, the firestorms and so forth were shocking. But actually, at the time one did what was one’s duty sort of thing but afterwards one wondered was it right. Anyway, who can tell? After the war of course, after VE Day we flew some food out or food parcels to the Netherlands and took about, about a dozen, I think Belgian refugees back to Brussels. Flew them back. One of whom was Mrs five-by-five and really because she was quite a considerable weight the skipper insisted that she go forward of the main spar. Now, I don't know if you know the main spar but like I say —
DE: Yes.
MC: But there was no way she was going to get over this and so we had to get hold of her leg and put her leg over to one side and then lift her up and rock her over it. The number of petticoats she was wearing [laughs] Oh dear. We got there anyhow but to see their faces and their joy when they saw they were over their own country was fantastic. But that was quite an exercise. Then of course we flew back some prisoners of war. Twenty four on a trip I think. And, and then it, I can't remember the name of the station we landed at but anyhow —
DE: What was that like? Flying them home?
MC: Oh, ok. They were, they were quite subdued I'd say really and obviously one was doing one’s own thing and therefore one didn't really get that much to talk to them. Again, of course they were very happy to come back home. In fact, my wife's, my brother’s wife’s brother-in-law was a prisoner of war in the RAF. Yeah. He, and when he came back we used to, he lived in Malvern and we used to go out with him, He ended up as my bank manager [laughs] which was quite useful. He studied while he was actually a prisoner of war and [pause] That must be the end I think. I must have dried up by now surely.
DE: Ok. Well, unless there’s anything else that you can think of to tell me.
MC: Well, I can't think there's anything else that would interest. Well, I mean, with John Tully in Devon. He could drink a pint of scrumpy and a pint of bitter and all the locals were waiting for his legs to fold. They didn't. And he had us lost in town. He drove us back to Dunkeswell. The next morning he would say, ‘Martin, what did we do last night [laughs] You know. Before any drink driving. But in fact, there was nothing on the roads really at that stage.
DE: No.
MC: One often wonders where they, what happened to them since and so forth. I went to one or two squadron reunions but in the end I went to them and I hardly knew anyone there. So they’ll say they were at Waterbeach or [pause] and Waterbeach of course was taken over by as an Army training place. We did have a little museum there but what's happened to that I don't know. Right. Well, I can't think.
DE: Well, I’ll switch it off. It’s just quite often what happens is I’ll press stop and then you'll say, ‘Oh, there's another thing. Thank you very much.
MC: Well, I –
DE: It's wonderful to talk to you.
MC: I don’t think it’s been much use to you but be that as it may. It’s memories disjointed and so forth.
DE: No. It's been marvellous. Thank you very much.
MC: Oh right.
DE: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Martin Arthur Catty
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACattyMA180822
Description
An account of the resource
Martin Catty grew up in London and was evacuated to Westward Ho! with his school at the beginning of the war. He completed a short training course at Cambridge University in 1942 and joined Air Force. After training he flew 40 operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron from RAF Waterbeach. He describes how many of his operations were in daylight and using GH, so he often released the bombs. He mentions turning a Tiger Moth upside down after landing in a dust-storm during training, and how he ‘cooked’ his navigation log after he had taken control of the aircraft to give his pilot a rest. He recalls flying with another crew who smoked in the aircraft and discusses using the Elsan. Discusses some of the ground personnel and an explosion after a bomb fell from an aircraft at RAF Waterbeach in 1944. He became the navigator for the RAF Waterbeach base test crew after his tour, and after the war he flew as part of a ferry crew, taking ground crew to the Middle East, and also was an instructor for landing using the blind approach beacon. He was demobbed in October 1946 and completed a degree in engineering. Discusses his elder brother who also flew as a navigator and then flew for BOAC. He worked in management roles for The General Electric Company until he retired.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Manitoba--Brandon
Manitoba--Virden
Manitoba--Winnipeg
New Brunswick--Moncton
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Westward Ho
England--Yorkshire
Israel
United States
New York (State)--New York
North Africa
New York (State)
New Brunswick
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Devon
Manitoba
Format
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00:51:53 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
3 Group
514 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
entertainment
evacuation
Gee
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
love and romance
Manchester
military discipline
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Feltwell
RAF Stradishall
RAF Waterbeach
sanitation
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/796/10778/ADayMH171128.1.mp3
9ea556174e92adc2ad5ddbbaed1cf558
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Day, Margaret Helen
M H Day
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Margaret Day (b. 1924, 2015932Royal Air Force). She served in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Day, MH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 28th of November 2017, and with David Bray we are in the home of Margaret Day who was a WAAF in the war, and her husband Charles who’s already been interviewed. So, Margaret what are your earliest recollections of life?
MD: I think my earliest recollections are when I was three years old my father was in the Navy, and we went to Gibraltar. I had an older sister who stayed behind because she’d just started school. She stayed with grandparents. And a younger brother. And the Admiral at the time CNC, the Mediterranean was Admiral Townsend, and it was his daughter Helen that was my godmother. How I got my middle name. We had a small cottage on the, a stone cottage on the Rock. Admiralty House was halfway up the Rock, and I remember we had my brother and I had a donkey called [Burrabareeko]and we had a pannier each side. I was three and he was two I suppose and we used to go up and down on this donkey. And also the Admiral had two cows because everybody else on the Rock apart from the Governor had to drink goat’s milk. And they used to milk the cows and I remember being sent down with a jug when it was milking time to go back up the [laughs] back up the steps to take the milk home to my mother. And when I was four years old I started at an Army school which was, there was a lot of Army regiments there. I went to this Army school and we stayed there until I was five.
[pause]
CB: Ok.
MD: Then we came back to Portsmouth and my father was on the staff of Sir Roger Keyes as he was then.
CB: Admiral Sir Roger Keyes.
MD: Admiral Sir Roger Keyes.
CB: VC.
MD: He later became Lord Keyes.
CB: Yes.
MD: And my father was happy about that because he had served at Zeebrugge with Roger Keyes. I think, I think Sir Roger was on the large battleship or whatever it was. My father was in a small, a Mersey, Channel err cross Channel thing. A ferry called the Daffodil. And after the raid on Zeebrugge they renamed it the Royal Daffodil. And so because he had served with Sir Roger at the time they said that everybody deserved a VC. So they allocated three and the men were all asked to vote who should get them. And my father always said he voted for Sir Roger, and so he was very happy to be at Portsmouth with him. And strangely enough Sir Roger Keye’s eldest son Geoffrey that I knew because of being in the dockyard. He got a VC at Libya.
CB: Oh yeah.
MD: At some raid they did.
CB: On the Rommel raid. Yes.
MD: Yes. So, it was quite a unique family. So, I then went to school in Portsea until I was seven, and the commissions in those days were two years. If you were with the Mediterranean fleet it was two years. With the Atlantic fleet was three years. So of course all the sailors were hoping to get the Mediterranean fleet but, so my father was sent to Malta so we moved from inside the dockyard. My parents bought a house in Copnor, North Portsmouth, and he was, he was sent to Malta then. So, we, we just, but unfortunately when he’d been there a couple of years my mother had pneumonia and died. So he came back from Malta and the family was split up. And I then went back to Gibraltar with my father. My sister and brother stayed at home because they were settled. Apparently I didn’t settle very well, so he took me and I was fostered by the head gardener of the Rock. So I then lived in the grounds of Government House and I went to, then to another Army school. Came back when I was eleven [pause] My father then remarried a nursemaid. The Admiral in Gibraltar at that time was Austin, Sir Admiral Austin, and my father married the nursemaid that was, that he met there. And so we then moved to Gosport where he worked at, he was stationed at the St Vincent which was a training school for young boys. I think they were sixteen. And then the war came in 1939 when I was fifteen. I had to leave. I left school when I was fourteen and went to work across the harbour at Southsea to a large furnishing place. We did the soft furnishings for the royal yacht which was the Narlin in those days. And when the war, when the bombing started my father wanted me to come back to Gosport to work. So I went to work for Boots. And in 1940 one of the first daylight raids of, of the war was Portsmouth and Gosport, and a large bomb landed in our garden and I was trapped in an air raid shelter with my step mother and two neighbours which sort of went right up in the air and twisted. So we had, fortunately next door to us the Royal Air Force had taken over the balloon barrage thing and the airmen came out and managed to get us out of this air raid shelter. One of the people in it was taken to hospital so it was pretty scary. And my father was then sent to the Isle of Man because the St Vincent was evacuated there and the Isle of Man was full of internees. And there was no work there for, for me and my stepmother didn’t like it so we came back to Gosport and then I was, went to Overton to stay with friends. And since I was seventeen and a half I joined the WAAF. In those days you had to be eighteen to join the ATS or the Wrens and I was anxious. My sister was in the, in the WAAF and my brother had joined the Navy and my father was still in the Navy so I wanted to join up so as soon as I was seventeen and a half I joined. I applied to join the WAAF.
CB: Stop there for a mo.
MD: Yes.
[recording paused]
CB: Before we go on with your RAF career.
MD: Yes.
CB: I’d like to just dwell a little on the point of being on the receiving end of the air raids.
MD: Yes.
CB: So, because it was a Naval area there was obviously there was considerable attention.
MD: Yes.
CB: From the German bombers.
MD: Yes.
CB: The bomb landed how close to the Anderson shelter?
MD: Well, just a few, about fifty yards or so I should think.
CB: Right.
MD: Right. What would you say? It was very close. It was right in our garden.
BCD: Maybe twenty yards.
Yes, it looks to me as though it’s less than that. And so how, what was the, how did you feel the impact?
MD: Well, it was very strange. We, we always went. There were lots of air raid alarms, and we always went to the shelter. And as I say it was daytime and we had gone to the shelter and we could hear the, the guns. The anti-aircraft guns and the bombs. And all of a sudden there seemed to be a very [pause] a movement. I felt the earth moving and we sort of moved up slightly. Very gently. And but then of course all the earth started piling in which was rather frightening because we didn’t know how much earth was going to fall on us. But fortunately the balloon barrage people were next door and they came and dug us out. There was a Fort. Fort Brockhurst just across the road from us and a medical officer from there came out and had a look at us all. As I say one of the ladies had to go to hospital. But it was, it was terrifying.
CB: How many people were there in the Anderson shelter?
MD: About four. There were two, two ladies and I was a young girl and a younger child.
CB: And your stepmother.
MD: Yes, my stepmother. That’s four. Four altogether. Yes.
CB: Right. So you said that the explosion lifted the —
MD: Yes.
CB: Anderson shelter.
MD: Lifted us right up.
CB: Did it then land back where it was or did it move it away?
MD: It landed back where it was but —
CB: But you got covered in. Were you actually covered in the earth?
MD: Yes.
CB: Or just trapped by the earth?
MD: Well, my father had built this. When the Anderson shelters were built people were instructed how to make them safer and he had covered it all with a lot of earth. It was all covered over. And then of course the bottom. The earth came from the bottom and from the top and it was sort of piling in on us and that was, that was more frightening really because I began to get earth in my face and my mouth and I was afraid I was going to suffocate. But fortunately these men came out and they’d got crowbars and managed to open the thing up and pulled us out by our feet. Oh, that’s right, because my feet were above my head so I remember being dragged out by my feet.
CB: And how did they get the others out? The same way?
MD: The same way. Yes. But it was very difficult. I think my stepmother and I were on the top and for some reason the little girl and her mother were underneath so it was the lady that was underneath that was most seriously shaken up or damaged.
CB: And so it was like an earthquake in a way.
MD: Oh, it was. Yes.
CB: And this was daytime.
MD: Yes.
CB: So what were you dressed in at the time?
MD: Oh, ordinary clothes. Yes. I think it was about lunchtime.
CB: And you were in the shelter because there was an alarm. The alert.
MD: Because yes, there was an alert.
CB: How did that work then?
MD: Well, there was a, it’s a sort of a wailing siren that you can hear and as soon as you hear the siren you would go to the shelter and then the all clear was a flat note. So you knew when it was safe to come out.
CB: And how far away was the shelter from where you were? Where the house was.
MD: Well, it was it was quite close.
CB: Right next to it.
MD: I would say, I would say it’s closer to the house than the crater because these are pre-war built in the 1930s but they weren’t, they weren’t large gardens. They were —
CB: Was, was this a Navy house?
MD: No. My father had —
CB: The one he’d bought.
MD: He’d bought this house. Yes.
CB: Ok. Right. So, after that how did you feel? When you were pulled out?
MD: Well, yes I was very nervous after that whenever the sirens went off. So I was glad to be evacuated to Overton. To the rector and his wife who were friends of my step mother.
CB: Where’s Overton?
MD: Hampshire.
CB: Oh right.
MD: Near Basingstoke.
CB: And what happened to the shelter? Did they rebuild it or —
MD: Do you know I don’t know because we, we left.
CB: Because the house was wrecked as well was it?
MD: Well, it was half. Yes. It had to be boarded up and we had to move all our possessions.
CB: Did you?
MD: Into storage. And so I don’t really know what happened to that.
CB: Did your father sell the house later then?
MD: Yes.
CB: Or did you eventually go back there?
MD: No. He sold the house later on. Yeah.
CB: Right. Ok. We’ll pause there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Just on the Anderson shelter. Normally I think that they tended to dig out into the ground a bit.
MD: Yes.
CB: To make the top of the shelter lower. What was the situation with this one?
MD: To get the sides in.
CB: Right. In to the ground.
MD: Anchored. To anchor the thing. Yes.
CB: But with the bomb hitting the ground nearby.
MD: Yes.
CB: It shook the whole of the ground. Is that it?
MD: Yes. It lifted it up.
CB: Yes.
MD: Yes.
CB: Yes. So you decided to join the WAAFs.
MD: Yes.
CB: And the Army and the Navy you had to be older.
MD: You had to be six months older.
CB: Yes.
MD: I was very anxious to join up so –
CB: Yes. So, what did you think you’d do when you joined the RAF?
MD: I wanted to be a radio operator at sort of speaking to aircraft. But they hadn’t got any vacancies so they gave me a maths test and said that, ‘You can be a wireless operator.’ So, I said I was keen to join so I took that.
CB: And what did that involve?
MD: Well, first of all we went, I went to Gloucester where we were kitted out for about five days and after that we went to Morecambe in Lancashire to do the square bashing and stuff, and then I was sent to RAF Hutton Cranswick in Yorkshire, which was a fighter station at the time. But we were billeted at Leconfield because there were married quarters there, and that was bomber.
CB: How did you get between the two during the day?
MD: By, by transport, lorries, trucks.
CB: Open trucks were they?
MD: Yes. Yes. And —
CB: So when is this? What year are we talking about?
MD: Talking 1941 ‘42. I joined in ’41 and I think by ’42 I’d been posted.
CB: So, what was the training at Hutton Cranswick?
MD: Well, it was just, just general really because we were only there for two or three weeks. We were sent to the signals section, and they sort of gave us a little inside knowledge of what went on. But then we were posted to Lancashire, to Kirkham in Lancashire which was quite a large station and we used to go by train every day into Preston to the GPO where we were taught the Morse Code by civilians.
CB: How did you get on with that?
MD: Yes. I passed out. I passed the course and then went to Compton Bassett in Wiltshire for technical training. We had American radios and equipment there. So we had to, and learn all the procedure.
CB: How long did that take?
MD: That was six weeks. And then I was posted to RAF High Wycombe in 1942.
CB: So that was Bomber Command Headquarters.
MD: Bomber Command, yes. Bomber Harris was there at the time. He used to swoosh about in his car with someone driving him. Airmen scattering all the way. Very fast he used to drive on the roads. And originally I was what we call down the hole. It was underground and it was just communications between the various Groups. And after a while I was, came up from there to a monitoring section where we just monitored all the airwaves. And at one point I went to Beachy Head where they were tracking beacons and spurious beacons that the Germans were putting about and we had to —
CB: Navigation beacons.
MD: Navigation beacons for the aircraft, yeah.
CB: How did you do the monitoring then?
MD: Well, we sat with earphones on and tuned into the various frequencies, and wrote down whatever we got.
CB: Were you tracking where the beacon was situated and how did you do that?
MD: Well, it was —
CB: Because it wasn’t in Britain of course.
MD: No. No. But you could, you could pick up where the beacons crossed so —
CB: Do you know what they did with the information?
MD: No, I don’t. It was supposed to be top secret. We weren’t, we were very hush hush in that section. We were told not to speak to anybody.
CB: No.
MD: Yeah.
CB: How did you know what they were doing with the information?
MD: I, I didn’t know what they were doing.
CB: It was just you said the beacons crossed. The transmissions crossed.
MD: Yes. Well, that was when you could pick up the frequencies. You could get the frequencies of the beacons.
CB: How long did that last?
MD: That lasted until 1945. I was there for about three odd, three odd years.
CB: Based where?
MD: In High Wycombe.
CB: So that was only temporary at Beachy Head.
MD: Yes. That was just one off and then back again.
CB: And how did you like your job?
MD: I loved it. Yes. It was quite interesting. We always knew when there were raids on and basically what was going on.
CB: So, in your work at High Wycombe how would you describe what you were doing most of the time?
MD: Well, just receiving. When we were down the hole.
CB: Air signals or ground signals?
MD: Morse.
CB: All Morse.
MD: Morse Code.
CB: Yes.
MD: Yes.
CB: But was the origin of that transmission by radio or was it on the ground?
MD: It was from aircraft.
CB: Right.
MD: Yes.
CB: And you, using Morse you then wrote down. So what was the information that was coming?
MD: Well, it was usually in code so we would just write it all down and then in the hole they had a section where they could decode all the information.
CB: Right.
MD: There was some plain language but mostly it was code.
CB: So what was the origin of the, the transmissions from the aircraft? Where were they?
MD: Well, wherever they were flying.
CB: They were on raids.
MD: Yes.
CB: Right.
MD: Yes.
CB: And why would they be sending back signals?
MD: I don’t know. I suppose it, so it’s telling how they were getting on. I don’t know.
CB: I was just curious because —
MD: Yes.
CB: They had to maintain signal silence.
MD: Yes.
CB: Normally.
MD: Perhaps, perhaps when they were a certain distance they could communicate and say where they were.
CB: What I’m getting to is that you’re receiving it and putting in to plain language.
MD: Yes.
CB: It then goes to somebody else. But I wonder what, you receive it and write it down as a code.
MD: Yes.
CB: Is what I mean to say.
MD: Yes.
CB: Someone else decodes it.
MD: Decodes it.
CB: Did you find out very often what was actually in the signal?
MD: No. No.
CB: Was it, did you feel a need to know, or did you have a curiosity about it or did you just leave it?
MD: Yes. We were curious, but it was all very secret and the code section was mostly WAAF officers and you didn’t mix with any of the people that were doing the work.
CB: And what rank had you achieved by this time?
MD: I was a corporal.
CB: Right. How long did it, did you get corporal when you reached High Wycombe or what stage did you?
MD: No. At that, I became a corporal when I was overseas, sorry.
CB: Right. So when you were at High Wycombe.
MD: LACW.
CB: Yeah. Just to put that into context, you carried on in the RAF after the war, did you?
MD: Well, no.
CB: Or did you finish when the war finished?
MD: I finished more or less yes, when they started demobbing people.
CB: Ok.
MD: I was demobbed in 1946.
CB: Right. So we’re still back at High Wycombe.
MD: Yes.
CB: You’re feeding the code section. You started that in ’42 ’43 was it?
MD: Yes.
CB: When did you actually finish doing that job?
MD: Well, when I was posted overseas.
CB: And when was that?
MD: 1945.
CB: Ok. When the war in Europe had finished was it?
MD: It was, I think we were at, we were at sea coming along the Mediterranean when it was VE Day.
CB: Right. Where were you going? You’d been posted where?
MD: To Egypt.
CB: Right. And did you know what you were going to do when you were in Egypt?
MD: No. It was Telecommunications Middle East.
CB: Ah.
MD: And they were sort of the hub between the UK and the Far East and the Persian and Iraq force.
CB: So you got the information of VE day on the, when you were on the ship.
MD: Yes.
CB: What was the reaction of the people on the ship?
MD: Well, they were all delighted of course. It was a ship called the Georgic, and we left from Liverpool, and went out in to the Atlantic and picked up a convoy and came through the Straits because there were still submarines, U-boats lurking, and I think we were about halfway to Egypt when we heard the news.
CB: And what was people’s reaction in terms of —
MD: Very celebrating. Celebratory. Yes.
CB: Yes. And were you allowed to have lemonades on the ship?
MD: No. No, there was no —
CB: It was dry was it?
MD: Yes. Absolutely. Yes.
CB: So when you, when you got to Egypt what happened then?
MD: We got off at Port Said, and went to [pause] by lorries up to Almazah which was a sort of transit camp where we were in tents, and I remember there was a Camp Seymour where there was a sandstorm which was if you were in a tent it was was pretty horrific. But then I was posted to Telecommunications Middle East, TME where we were in concrete huts. Thirty girls to a hut and surrounded by a high wooden fence. They called it the WAAF compound.
CB: Why did they put the fence up I wonder?
MD: [laughs] Well —
BCD: She didn’t tell you she was on my Watch.
MD: Sorry?
BCD: Telecommunications Middle East when you were on my Watch. B Watch.
CB: Coming to that.
MD: It’s got nothing to do with him. Sorry.
CB: That’s Charles putting in a couple of comments. We’ll, come to Charles in a minute.
MD: Yes, don’t take any notice of him.
CB: Right. So there were thirty girls in a hut and you —
MD: Yes. A concrete hut.
CB: Oh, concrete.
MD: Yes.
CB: Crikey, right.
MD: Surrounded by a wooden, several huts surrounded by a big wooden fence. They called it the WAAF compound and they had guards on the thing. We didn’t have a, we had showers. But of course there was no air conditioning or anything so it was pretty hot, and chemical toilets. There was no running water.
CB: And is this place on the edge of a town or an airfield or in the desert?
MD: No. It was right out in the country at a place called [Kaf el Farouk?]
CB: Oh yes.
MD: It was several miles from Almazah. Right out in the desert.
CB: So in your time off what did you do?
MD: Went into Cairo because it was like fairy land, because there was no rationing, no blackout and there were troops of all nationalities. There were lots of Americans, lots of South Africans, all people congregating there so it was lively and, but of course I was only getting two pounds a fortnight or something so I couldn’t buy any of the clothes [laughs] but it was a, it was like, like going to fairyland after the UK.
CB: So when you got in to Cairo what did you actually do then? Window shopping?
MD: Yes. We used to go to the cafes and have ice creams and you meet up with various other people, airmen or people who were there and there were some places for troops. Canteens and stuff. Places that were —
CB: Actually in Cairo.
MD: In Cairo, yes.
CB: And you could have a drink there.
MD: Oh yes.
CB: Just stopping a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Start. Starting now.
MD: Yeah. Well, I was very fortunate because one of the girls that came with me from High Wycombe to Egypt was a widow. Her husband had been a major in the Indian Army and he was killed in Aden and she had joined the WAAF. But before that she had, her father was an Army officer and she had lived in Cairo and she had friends in Cairo who ran a [unclear] there. And so we could go there either to, on our sleeping out passes or just to visit and we could go to the various cafes and things. But she, this, this [unclear] was [pause] there were a lot of Army officers there who were being billeted there and so they were very kind. I remember one of them had a car and took us out to the pyramids which was wonderful because it, it was just the pyramids in those days. We’ve been back on a cruise ship and it’s all surrounded by bazaars. But you could, you could drive out in the moonlight and there’s the pyramids and it was just and I had always been interested in Egyptology since I was a child, and so I [pause] and also on leave we could, this girl and I we went to Cyprus once. We managed to get a lift on a Dakota. Another time we went to Jerusalem. And another time we went to Luxor. So it was, it was really very, very nice. Very enjoyable.
CB: So the aircrew were quite friendly about these sorts of things.
MD: Well, if there was a spare seat you could, you could get, but I remember that you sort of sat on a wooden bench either side of the Dakota and the air turbulence. There were no seat belts or anything, and we were hopping up and down with the turbulence. It was quite a hairy, and those old Dakotas rattled so and they made a dreadful noise. But it was, it was the visit to Cyprus which we stayed up. There was a place for troops up in the Troodos Mountains. So she and I stayed there for one of our leaves. So we managed to get around quite a lot.
CB: How did you manage to get back in time then as it was an ad hoc arrangement?
MD: Well, that’s, we couldn’t get back in time. We got there alright, but we couldn’t get a flight back for a day or so, so we were in a bit of trouble when we got back.
CB: When you got a bit of leave how long was that?
MD: I think we used to take seven days at a time so that we could spread it out and go to different places.
CB: What we haven’t talked about is the difference in the uniforms between being in Britain.
MD: Yes.
CB: And being out in Cairo.
MD: Yes.
CB: And Egypt and then going to Cyprus and so on.
MD: Yes.
CB: So what was it? What was the uniform like in Britain?
MD: Well, it was a tunic with a, and a skirt with a cap and a cap badge. Grey stockings and black brogue walking shoes which you weren’t allowed to wear anything but the regulation shoes so, and shirts with detachable collars which weren’t very nice and knickers they called blackouts which were huge voluminous garments. Of course, we didn’t have any coupons to buy anything else so —
CB: Oh, so you couldn’t but anything anyway.
MD: No. So, we you just had to make do with your uniform.
CB: And did you ever walk out in your free time in civilian clothes or were you always in uniform?
MD: No. Occasionally you could get a sleeping out pass with civilian clothes which —
CB: What, what would cause them to give you that?
MD: I, I don’t know really.
CB: Would it be a special event like a birthday or a wedding or something?
MD: Probably. Yes. Yes. It wasn’t, it wasn’t very often. Most of the time we had to be in uniform and carry our 1250s with us and —
CB: Carry your 1250s. Yes. Which is your ID.
MD: Yes.
CB: For people who don’t know. So was it the same uniform in the summer and in the winter in Britain?
MD: Yes. But when we got to Egypt it was the blues in the winter and we loved the summer uniform. We had sandals and socks and little short khaki skirts and blouses, and forage caps which was much nicer than the caps here.
CB: And the uniform was a lighter material. What was it made of?
MD: Sort of a heavy linen I suppose.
CB: But, but thinner than the UK uniform.
MD: Yes. Yeah.
CB: So how did you feel from a heat point of view?
MD: Well, we were young and I suppose we didn’t really notice it so much. I was only twenty one and it was all so exciting to be in the Middle East.
CB: Right.
MD: No. The uniforms were very comfortable.
CB: And where you worked what was the, what were the facilities there? What sort of building was it?
MD: This, this was underground. A Centre underground so it was, it was, it was quite cool but there was no air conditioning. And I remember the first day I went down there I saw one of the airmen pick up one of these sort of folding chairs and bang it on the floor. And I said to him, ‘What are you doing with that chair?’ And he, he said, ‘I’m getting rid of the bugs.’ So every time I went on duty I had one of these chairs I had to bang it on the floor. They didn’t have proper fumigation or anything so —
CB: What did you do with the bugs? Did you tread on them or what?
MD: Yes.
CB: You liked the crunch did you?
MD: No [laughs] No, but they had a fierce bite these.
CB: Did they?
MD: Yes, they were so it, as I say there were, they had certain fans but it was really very warm.
CB: Underground.
MD: Yes. We had to walk there and it, but we had, we did shifts of course which were not very —
CB: What were the shifts?
MD: Eight to twelve. Twelve to six. Six to eleven. And eleven to eight the following morning.
CB: Was that hard going or fairly easy with that sequence?
MD: Well, it did mean that you got a, you had a sort of a stand-off in between, which meant we could go out. I think if you came off at eleven err at 8 o’clock in the morning and you weren’t on again until the following day it, it was quite, quite alright. It was a bit indigestible but —
CB: So, how did the sequence work? So you would be say on an eight till twelve. Then would you do that for a week or ten days?
MD: No.
CB: Or what would you do?
MD: No. It was, it was continuous rolling. The shifts just went on like that the whole time.
CB: Yes. But did you move between the shifts is what I meant. So —
MD: No. If you were on a certain Watch —
CB: Yes.
MD: Your watch did these particular hours.
CB: Yeah. You were always on that.
MD: And you always did the same hours.
CB: That’s what I meant. Yes. And after a month they didn’t change to a difference shift.
MD: No. No.
CB: Which one were you normally on? Well, were you on?
MD: Well, I was on B Watch as he says but —
CB: And B was which? Which was twelve to six was it?
MD: Yes. But then you would do the same. I think there were four different shifts.
BCD: Yeah. Four Watches.
MD: Four Watches.
BCD: And we used to go on at 8 o’clock in the morning.
MD: Yes.
BCD: Until mid-day.
MD: Yes.
BCD: And then mid-day until 8 o’clock at night.
MD: The following day.
BCD: 8 o’clock the following day.
CB: The following day. That’s what I’m getting at. Yeah.
MD: Yeah. I’m sorry.
CB: So it was a rolling shift system.
MD: Yes. Yeah.
CB: So you would gradually get to working at night.
MD: Yes.
CB: And then you gradually get to work in the day.
MD: Every fourth night you would, you would be on duty all night.
CB: Right.
MD: Yes.
CB: And then when did you get a break? Was it seven days on and two days off, or how did it work?
MD: I I think it was —
BCD: We used to have the four Watch system but we used to have a week off in between.
CB: Oh right. So once you’d done four shifts rolling.
BCD: We did that for about three months or so. Or quite a, quite a lot of time and then we had a week off.
CB: Before you had time off. Yeah.
MD: Yeah.
BCD: That’s when we used to go together to Alexandria or somewhere like that.
CB: Ok.
BCD: I used to take Margaret —
CB: Ok. So, well let’s come back to that. So, I’m just going to stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So, after you’d done the four shifts.
MD: Yeah.
CB: You end up at eight in morning.
MD: Yeah.
CB: And then you’re off for twenty four hours before you start again in the morning.
MD: Yes.
CB: How did you get, adjust to this constant change to your sleep time?
MD: Well, you just did it. I mean —
BCD: With difficulty.
MD: Yes. There was no [pause] the cookhouse was open all the time, so when we went on watch at 11 o’clock we could call in the cookhouse for some rations and then come, then come straight off and go to breakfast and then sleep. And then the following day start again one ‘til six.
CB: Right. So what was the food like?
MD: Oh.
CB: Because it’s hot weather. Was it a different menu from the one you would have in Britain?
MD: Yes. It was. It was slightly different but [pause] not a —
CB: So, what was the staple diet of your survival?
MD: I don’t know. I suppose it was [pause] there was, there was a lot of beef, which we couldn’t get in, you couldn’t get in the UK so but we soon got tired of it. I don’t know why they had so much but, and we used to get fruit from, the South Africans used to send fruit to the girls. They were very kind and on another occasion they sent us material so we could have dresses made. And on another occasion they sent nylons. So, the South Africans were very good.
CB: Of course being there it was easier to get meat.
MD: Yes.
CB: To you.
MD: It was.
CB: From South America and South Africa.
MD: Yes.
CB: Yeah. What about eggs?
MD: I don’t recall ever having eggs.
BCD: Pardon?
MD: We didn’t have eggs.
CB: No.
BCD: We had eggs Margaret for breakfast.
MD: In the officer’s mess.
CB: Right. And just as a comparison what would you eat in Britain?
MD: Yes.
CB: In those days. What was the menu like there?
MD: Well, that was very stodgy food. A lot of bread and margarine, and stews and sometimes rice pudding or something. It was, it, it was very unimaginative.
CB: But designed to keep you warm.
MD: Yes. Keep, keep you going.
CB: All by the RAF cookbook.
MD: Yes.
CB: Ok. So back to Egypt.
MD: Yes.
CB: Here you are on a shift system, a Watch system that runs continuously for a month.
MD: Yes.
CB: Before you get time off. Seven days off. In your time not on shift what could you do? Was there a NAAFI on site or what was there?
MD: Yes. There was a NAAFI. And also we had a swimming pool too so, and they used to have camel races and gymkhanas and things.
CB: How did you get on riding camels?
MD: With difficulty.
CB: But the gymkhanas were actually with horses were they?
MD: Donkeys, I think. Mules. Yeah.
CB: They were difficult to persuade?
MD: Yes [laughs] Had to give them a good kick, and [pause]
CB: Ok.
MD: But we had a lot of swimming which was very nice.
CB: Big pool.
MD: Yes. Quite a big pool. Not Olympic size but a fair size one.
CB: Was this in a compound where there was quite a bit of green because it was well —
MD: No. No. It was all sand.
CB: All sand.
MD: The only greenery was around the flagpole in the, in the, in the entrance as you came in. There was a flagpole with the RAF flag and the TME crest and they used to try and indent for a waggon load of Nile mud and if they could get this mud it was put around the flag post and there would be a very few flowers and outside the CO’s office there would be a few flowers but the rest was all sand. There was nothing else. No earth at all.
CB: You talked earlier about sandstorms.
MD: Yes.
CB: If you were in a tent with a sandstorm what precautions are you taking there? They’ve got sides on the tents. Are they able to bury those and does that work?
MD: Well, the ones at Almazah, there was a sort of a foot of brick work and then there was a gap and then the tent flap. So, so the sand just came in.
CB: Free of charge.
MD: Yes. Yeah.
CB: So you had a job to clear that up.
MD: Yes.
CB: In fact, what do you do? Because of the wind and the sand do you all wear handkerchiefs or how do you deal with keeping it out of your —
MD: Well, just scarves really.
CB: Yeah.
MD: We had neckerchiefs and they —
CB: All the time.
MD: Yeah. But there weren’t, there was a lot of local labour, so they did the clearing. The shovelling out.
CB: The donkey work.
MD: Yes.
CB: What about things like laundry? How did that —
MD: We had, the girls could send their things to the laundry and that was quite good.
CB: So they, their aroma was fairly fresh but the blokes all were a bit smelly were they?
MD: I don’t know quite what the airmen did but we had, we had very nice laundry and our shirts, our khaki shirts came back very freshly laundered, the skirts.
CB: So, we talked earlier about when you were in Cairo.
MD: Yes.
CB: What things happened there that were good and not so good?
MD: Well, there’s a certain amount of rioting and one of our girls was caught up in somehow and got killed.
CB: How was she killed?
MD: Shot.
CB: What was the riot about?
MD: There was a lot of trouble about upper Egypt. Apparently, the British promised the Egyptians that they, they could have upper Egypt. As it seemed time went on and they didn’t. They didn’t ever get it, still haven’t. There was a lot of demonstrations and —
CB: And what did they do with the demonstrations? Were they quite violent or just shouting a lot?
MD: I think mostly shouting and waving sticks about because they didn’t have any guns or ammunition. Mostly the Fellahin. They were very poor and —
CB: What were they called?
MD: Fellahin.
CB: Fellahin.
MD: The Fellahin. Yeah.
CB: And how regular were these riots?
MD: Not, not very regular. Six monthly I suppose. I don’t know whether they —
CB: And the RAF had headquarters there. How did they protect that?
MD: Well, that was in, I don’t think, in Cairo they had —
BCD: Well, the headquarters was boarded up all around.
MD: Yes. They —
CB: Did you ever go there?
MD: No. There was, there was a Number 5 Hospital that I was put into once when I had a problem but that was all.
CB: So, the medical facilities were —
MD: Yes.
CB: Quite good were they?
MD: Yes, they were. And there was a WAAF medical officer at Heliopolis that you could go to if you didn’t like the MO.
CB: Didn’t like?
MD: The MO.
CB: Yeah.
MD: Sometimes they were a bit [pause] they weren’t very sympathetic to the girls, you know. They, they thought we were a lot of wilting violets and they, they weren’t very helpful. So if, I had rash on my face so I opted to go to the MO at Heliopolis and she sent me to the hospital in Cairo. I was there for a few days.
CB: So all in all how did you rate your stay in Egypt.
MD: I liked it very much. Very happy there.
CB: What was the most pleasant part of that?
MD: The travelling I think. I was able to go to Cyprus, Jerusalem, Luxor and later on when I met up with my husband we went to Alexandria.
CB: So how did you meet him?
MD: Well, he was the officer. One of the officers of the Watch. And I was the, I was in a department called snags which I liked.
CB: What was that?
MD: Well, we had a system called [Codnasti] which was a call sign operator’s number, NR number, directions, address, subject matter, time of origin, ending and if any of those went wrong the message would go to the wrong place or they would lose the subject matter or something. So when I went on Watch there would often be quite a stack of messages that had lost their way as it were. And I’ve always liked puzzles. I still do lots of puzzles and I had to sort out what had gone wrong and where they should have gone to and —
CB: And, and was there a lot of this in Morse that you were handling still?
MD: Yes.
CB: Or was it different?
MD: Some of it was morse and some was plain language.
CB: And you had to write this down having, because what rank were you here?
MD: I was a corporal.
CB: Right.
MD: And I had another girl who was an LACW when she was, we did it between us.
CB: Did you have more than one person reporting to you at any time, or always just one person was it?
MD: Just the one person yes, just the two of us working.
CB: Yeah. Ok. So how did this link with your husband to be start?
MD: Well, he was, he was one of the officers of the Watch. And you had to get things signed all the time. Keep going signing things and —
CB: Was he falling behind a bit and you had to chivvy him up?
MD: No. He was, he was always seemed to be walking around taking note of what was going on. So —
CB: You cracked —
MD: As he passed through I’d get him to sign something.
CB: He couldn’t escape.
MD: Quite.
CB: Management by walkabout.
MD: Yes.
CB: Worked quite well. So how long were you then in Egypt, and when did you come back?
MD: I went over in 1945, early in the year. I think April. I think. April or May and I came back July I think the following year. I would have liked to have stayed longer. It was so nice.
CB: Where did they post you to when you returned?
MD: No. I was immediately demobbed because I’d, I’d done five years and joined up when I was seventeen and a half and did five years so I had quite a high release number.
CB: Now, that was what it based on was it? The length of service.
MD: Yes, and, and your age.
CB: Yeah. Where were you demobbed?
MD: In Liverpool. Came back on the Mauritania and spent about five days being demobbed and debriefed and —
CB: What was the debriefing?
MD: Well, where, where you’d where you’d been and what you’d done, and —
CB: For the records or were they trying —
MD: Records.
CB: To find out if there was anything of importance that —
MD: No. I think it was just records. Yes.
CB: And the men had a set of clothes given to them when they were demobbed.
MD: Yes.
CB: What happened to the ladies?
MD: Well, we had, I think it was thirty coupons which was hardly enough to buy shoes and a coat. I had a few clothes left behind, but when I left home but — [pause]
CB: Did they give you any clothes?
MD: It was very, very difficult. We didn’t get any clothing. No.
CB: At all.
MD: No.
CB: Right. The men all got a suit.
MD: Yes. We just got clothing coupons.
CB: Right. So what did you actually do next then?
MD: I went to London where my father was now working in the House of Commons, in Black Rod’s department. And I, I was reinstated by Boots. You could apply for reinstatement and I went to a branch in, in London. And then I got married and it was back to the RAF again.
CB: When did you get married. And where?
MD: 1947.
CB: When?
MD: January 4th 1947. Chelsea Registry Office.
[pause]
CB: A good address then.
MD: What do you mean?
CB: Chelsea.
MD: Yes. Oh yes. I lived in Chelsea.
CB: Right. With your parents.
MD: Well, with my father.
CB: Yeah, with your father. Yeah.
MD: Yeah. He’d separated by then.
CB: From your step mother.
MD: From my step mother.
CB: Right.
MD: So he, he was living there. He was as I say he was, worked at the House Of Commons. A special badge messenger in Black Rod’s department. And —
CB: So when you were married where did you go and live?
MD: Well, for a short time in Haringey.
CB: Haringey.
MD: Yes. But, but that’s until we, my husband was posted to Marlow in Medmenham. Medmenham.
CB: Medmenham.
MD: And so we had lodgings in Marlow. Two rooms in a, well two rooms in a house. It was quite a big RAF station at Medmenham at that time and then from there we went to Pembroke Dock where we lived in a miner’s cottage with a tin bath on the wall. When the wind blew the bath used to swing to and fro.
CB: How did you fill the bath?
MD: Well, we had a, bought a huge pan from a gypsy and used to put it on the stove and fill it with hot water and we gradually filled the bath up. My daughter was born in a Nissen hut in Pembroke Dock.
CB: So you moved from the cottage to the Nissen hut did you? Or that was just the delivery room? The Nissen hut. Your daughter.
MD: The Nissen hut was the, was the RAF with the —
CB: Right. In medical, sick quarters.
MD: Yes. And then my husband was demobbed and we came to St Albans. And from there to Harpenden and here we are.
CB: Very interesting. We’ll just pause for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So you’re in this miner’s cottage.
MD: Yes.
CB: What was the, at what time of year are we talking about here?
MD: Well, it must have been the winter because my daughter was born in February.
CB: Yeah.
MD: And —
BCD: We went down there in late autumn time.
MD: Yes.
BCD: To Pembroke Dock.
MD: Yes.
CB: So, how did you heat the cottage?
MD: It was coal fires.
CB: Supplied by the Air Force.
MD: No.
CB: The coal.
MD: No.
BCD: No.
MD: No. In, in those days if you, if the officer was under twenty five he didn’t get a marriage allowance so we were, we were pretty hard up actually. Had to buy coal and pay rent.
CB: Do you remember what the rent was?
MD: What was the rent in the, in the Pembroke Dock?
BCD: About two pounds a week.
MD: Something like that. Yes.
CB: Quite a bit of money then.
MD: It was. Yes.
CB: With the bath you’ve had to put a lot of effort into boiling the water.
MD: Yes.
CB: In the tin.
MD: Yes.
CB: So you fill the bath. How full would you fill it?
MD: Well, about a third I suppose really and you had to carry the water from the, there was a very tiny kitchen, and the bath had to go in the living room which was very, these cottages are very small and carry the water from there to there and gradually fill up.
CB: So after one had had a bath what happened?
MD: I think, I think my husband was able to bath on the station.
CB: Right.
MD: It was just me I think.
CB: Yeah.
BCD: I used to swim in the sea too. Get it off a Sunderland Flying Boat to just —
CB: Dive in.
BCD: Yeah, just dive in.
CB: So you had a salty bloke come back.
MD: [laughs] Yes.
CB: But in practical terms did you share the bath sometimes? That is to say one did it, and used it, and then the other?
MD: No. I don’t think so. You always had a bath or shower on the station didn’t you?
BCD: Yes, I did. But occasionally as a bit of fun I had a bath.
MD: After.
BCD: At the cottage.
MD: Yeah. After me. Yeah.
CB: And then you had to ladle the water out.
MD: Had to carry this huge thing out by the handles and tip it down the drain, and put it back on the wall.
CB: I had to do that at school.
MD: Did you?
CB: Yes. Anyway —
MD: Which school was that?
CB: I’ll tell you later [laughs] So then you, from, from Pembroke Dock then you came, then your husband was demobbed.
MD: Yes.
CB: Himself.
MD: Yes.
CB: So then you moved on to other things.
MD: Yes.
CB: And your, what about your son? Where was he born?
MD: He was born in St Albans.
CB: Right.
MD: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So what was the most memorable thing you would say happened to you in your service in the RAF?
MD: Well, I would think going overseas and being able to travel around the Middle East.
CB: Yeah.
MD: It was pretty dull at High Wycombe. Not much excitement.
CB: No. You were able to travel around a bit on public transport at High Wycombe were you or was that a bit restricted?
MD: Well, there was, there was a bus service so you had to pay to get on a bus and go in to High Wycombe. Sometimes we walked because it was, would save money.
CB: Down from Naphill.
MD: Yes. Down the hill.
CB: And then the hard drudge back up again.
MD: Yes. Yes. I’ve done that a few times. Yeah.
CB: But you were fit.
MD: Yes.
CB: Enabled you to have a good appetite to eat the quality RAF food.
MD: [laughs] Yes.
CB: Right. Well, we’ll stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
MD: I remember seeing her on Pay Parade.
CB: So, I just want to go back to your initial training.
MD: Yes.
CB: Which you did at Morecambe.
MD: Yes.
CB: What exactly did you do there?
MD: Well, it was mainly marching and lectures.
CB: What were the lectures on?
MD: About the RAF and discipline and that sort of thing.
CB: And did they talk about the air war because we’re right in the war now?
MD: Yes. No.
CB: Did you do aircraft recognition or —
MD: No. It was very basic really. We were, we were billeted with civilians in, landladies.
CB: Yes.
MD: And the food was a bit scarce. I don’t know how much they were paid per person but they didn’t provide a great deal of food.
CB: What about the people who were on the course with you?
MD: Yes.
CB: What sort of people were they?
MD: Well, we were, we were all, all together really. We hadn’t separated out into our trades or where we were going. So it was just sort of you came from Gloucester, got your uniform, went up to Morecambe and we were just sort of settling into service life really.
CB: And, what I’m getting at is your father was in the Navy. What rank was he in the Navy at that time?
MD: He was a chief petty officer.
CB: Right. So, he was a fairly senior man at the time compared with some of the other [pause] so you came from a family of a senior NCO.
MD: Yes.
CB: But you would have got people from all sorts of walks of life.
MD: All sorts of walks of life.
CB: What sort of background were they?
MD: Yes.
CB: What sort of people were they?
MD: Well, basically very nice. There were some rather rough people as you might say, but basically your average citizen I would say. Working class people.
CB: And how did they adapt to, because you knew about service life.
MD: Yes.
CB: If only from the Navy but how did they adapt to this circumstance?
MD: I think some of them found it rather hard. The discipline and having to be on time and things like that.
CB: And all of them had had jobs before had they?
MD: Yes. Most of them had.
CB: Had any of them just left —
MD: Some of us were volunteers and some had been conscripted of course.
CB: Ah, ok. So how did the conscription work?
MD: Well, they called people up in batches. Rather like they did the men, I think. If you weren’t in a Reserved Occupation you had to go in one of the services or be directed in to something.
CB: And how did they feel about that? The ones conscripted.
MD: Well, they, they just had to put up with it. They didn’t have any choice really. They weren’t, they weren’t very happy to be where they were but —
CB: Did you form a lasting friendship with anybody at that stage?
MD: Not at that stage. I did when I was in the Middle East but the thing was when we got home we were all in different parts of England. We didn’t have telephones or mobiles or communication. We didn’t have cars. It was very difficult. Once you sort of went to your different areas. It was, it was just letter writing really. And I, I still keep in touch with some of the girls. One in particular that was [pause] joined up with me. But —
CB: What did she come on? What did she do eventually? When she took a trade what trade did she go to?
MD: Telephonist.
CB: As well.
MD: Yes. Not wireless telephonist.
CB: Oh no, telephonist. Right.
MD: Telephonist. Yes.
CB: And where would she have been posted in that case?
[pause]
MD: I think it was Leighton Buzzard.
CB: Right. Stanbridge.
MD: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MD: And that was another thing you see. You were, often you were posted all in different directions so it was very difficult to keep in touch with people.
CB: Sure.
MD: In those days.
CB: Because you wouldn’t know where they were.
MD: No.
CB: Because the security —
MD: Yes.
CB: Was such that you weren’t allowed to say where you were stationed, were you?
MD: Exactly. Somewhere in England you had to put. Somewhere in England.
CB: Right.
MD: I remember when we were going on, on overseas and my brother was also, he was in the Navy and we, we worked out a code. If you said, “Give my love to all the people at number 6,” it meant that that was number six and that would be a place. So we’d try, we tried to get around it to let people know basically where we were.
CB: On a list.
MD: Yeah.
CB: Number 6 on the list.
MD: You put a list of all names of the places you thought you might be and if you say, “Give my love to all the people at number 3,” And then you would look on the list and that would tell you.
CB: Was this something to do with the fact that you were dealing with Morse Code as a code and so you followed the same concept yourselves.
MD: I think so yes. Probably. But we found ways of letting people know.
CB: Yes. Now of the people in other courses what famous person did you —
MD: Well, Sarah Churchill was in the intake above me.
CB: Oh right.
MD: So, and I remember seeing her on Post Parade. She was getting letters, and she’d, she’d married this American comedian Vic somebody or other but Randolph Churchill had rushed to America to stop her marrying him but arrived too late I think, so [pause] But anyway she was in the WAAF and then later she went to Medmenham as a photographic interpreter. And she had bright red hair.
CB: How did you know who she was?
MD: Well, because I, I knew her. I knew her by sight. She had this very bright red hair. And her picture had been in the paper a lot.
CB: Ah, that’s how you knew who she was, did you?
MD: Yes.
CB: Yes. So the security was a bit, was that from pre-war times or —
MD: No. That was.
CB: In the war.
CB: During the war. Yes.
MD: So variable security here identifying the prime minister’s daughter.
MD: Yes.
CB: In the paper.
MD: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MD: Yeah.
CB: Right. And of the people who you trained with —
MD: Yes.
CB: How many of those got to more exalted heights?
MD: I think some of them became sergeants but, or if, if they wanted to do physical training or anything like that they would reach the rank of warrant officer but basically we were erks or corporals. There wasn’t much promotion.
CB: Ok. Because the RAF was a, a meritocracy compared with the other forces they say.
MD: Really?
CB: And I just wondered how you had seen that in operation.
MD: I think there were sort of people from all walks of life and, but there wasn’t any huge differences. I, I remember the thing that surprised me most when I joined the RAF was that everybody used Christian names whereas before that where I was working it was always Miss somebody and Mr somebody and even your next door neighbours were Mr and Mrs and it seemed very nice and friendly when I joined the Service that everybody used Christian names.
CB: Right. Well, Margaret Day thank you very much indeed for a most interesting conversation.
[recording paused]
CB: Just going back to your time in —
MD: Yes.
CB: In Egypt. There were a lot of people there so there would be a hundred and twenty people or something on a shift.
MD: Yes.
CB: And largely WAAFs but there were also men as well. What was the mix of tasks? Were they the same or did the men have a different role?
MD: I think mainly the girls did the signals work and, and some of the other, some of the men were sort of in charge of departments. But basically they were being moved a lot at that time and it was being more or less taken over by, by the WAAF.
CB: Right.
BCD: The men were mainly the engineer section.
CB: Right.
BCD: Anything went wrong they — [pause]
MD: RAF Regiment and that sort of thing.
CB: What did the RAF Regiment do?
MD: Well, guard the airfield.
CB: Oh, guarding it.
MD: Yes.
CB: Yeah. And was there a barbed wire fence around the whole place then to protect it from marauding tribesman?
MD: No.
BCD: You could see very little above ground. Everything was covered in sand you see. Massive place underground.
CB: Yeah.
BCD: But nothing from the top. The other thing that, you talked about eggs.
CB: Yes.
BCD: On our night shift we had our own canteen there with staff running the canteen and I used to look forward, about 2 o’clock in the morning, the staff used to have a half an hour off during that to have my egg, chips and bacon. That was lovely. And — [pause]
CB: Was this because you were in charge of a section or because you were air crew?
BCD: Well, no. I, my function was because of my technical ability on telecommunications and anything connected with that.
CB: Right.
BCD: I must admit I took to the training for radar and telecommunications, and I really got down to it and did pretty well. That is why I used to lecture in the Middle East. They used to call me to lecture to various —
CB: Various people.
BCD: Various functions and things. I lectured to various squadrons and whatever.
CB: Right. Well, we’re stopping there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Margaret Helen Day
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADayMH171128
Format
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01:15:16 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Navy
Description
An account of the resource
As her father was in the Royal Navy, Margaret attended school in Gibraltar, Portsmouth, and (after her mother’s death) Malta, before returning to Gosport in the UK when she was eleven. In 1939, she was fifteen and working for a company making soft furnishings for the Royal Yacht. Margaret recalls when the bombing started in 1940 with attacks on Portsmouth and Gosport. On one occasion, a bomb fell in their garden and trapped them in their Anderson shelter. Margaret remembers being terrified, being rescued by RAF personnel who pulled her out of the earth by her feet, and one lady requiring hospitalisation. At the age of seventeen, Margaret joined the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force and trained as a wireless operator. Her brother had joined the Royal Navy and her sister the WAAF also. Following initial training, she trained as a wireless operator at RAF Hutton Cranswick, RAF Kirkham, where she learnt Morse code, and RAF Compton Basset. In 1942, she was posted to RAF High Wycombe, bomber command’s headquarters. Based underground, her roles included communicating between Groups, monitoring radio frequencies to locate enemy navigation beacons, and recording encrypted messages from aircraft sent in Morse code. In 1945, Margaret was posted overseas and was on a ship in the Mediterranean heading to Egypt when news of VE Day came through. She joined the Telecommunications Middle East facility in Egypt. She recalls living in tents during sandstorms and visiting Cairo, the Pyramids, Jerusalem, and Luxor. She also visited Cyprus on leave in a Dakota C-47. After five years' service, Margaret was demobilised in 1946.
Contributor
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Andy Shaw
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Great Britain
North Africa
England--Buckinghamshire
England--High Wycombe
England--Portsmouth
England--Wiltshire
Egypt--Cairo
England--Hampshire
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1942
1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
aircrew
bombing
ground personnel
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Nissen hut
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF High Wycombe
RAF Kirkham
shelter
Victoria Cross
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/849/10845/AHackerHA170819.1.mp3
624d4dab61b9f38cda4574f96ea22848
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hacker, Harry
Harry Austin Hacker
H A Hacker
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Harry Hacker (b. 1923, 1682646, 191354 Royal air Force). He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 40 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hacker, HA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DB: This interview is with Harry Hacker on the 19th of August in Lindfield at 10.50am. Harry, can you tell me a little bit about what your first contact with aircraft was?
HH: My first contact with aircraft. It was in 1939 at the age of sixteen. I’d just left technical college and I went to work with a factory. It was a Rootes motor manufacturing firm in the district of Speke on the outskirts of Liverpool, and many of these factories were turned over to government production of aircraft because war was just about imminent and that, it was, they were building at the time when I joined them originally as an apprentice but the apprenticeship scheme was scrapped when the war started. They went over then to twenty four hour shifts and that was building the Wellington. The long nose Wellington. That was the second modification of the Wellington. A wonderful aircraft. It later on turned out to be quite an important one as far as Bomber Command were concerned. And that was my first contact. Working with skilled engineers building the Wellington bomber. I never ever thought at that time that I would finish up flying with bombers. And I worked for about, I don’t know probably a year maybe at the Blenheim manufacturing and then I, then decided to go for a more permanent and future apprenticeship as a Post Office engineer. So then I applied and was taken in and worked as a post, Post Office engineer. It was during this time the Blitz was going on and I joined the Home Guard and served originally as the, in the LDV, the Local Defence Force. That was in the May I think it was and later on it became the Home Guard. So I belonged to the Home Guard of the Post Office and we used to guard our own Exchanges and the Post Offices. Places of importance. And that was it. During my work as a youth in training I worked with another chap. And because of the Blitz going on they decided to change our studies at Night School to day time because there was the Blitz and we were going to Night School as it was so called on a Saturday afternoon. So one Saturday afternoon another a friend of mine, a chap called Dougie Irving who later on became a gunner in the RAF, we decided we’d play hookey from Night School and we went along to the Recruiting Office to join up. There we met this big strapping sergeant major who approached us as if we were two naughty boys and said, ‘What do you guys want?’ We said, ‘We want to join up.’ He asked us what our profession was and when we told him we were in Post Office engineering he said, ‘I can’t. Sorry you guys I can’t take you because you are in a Reserved Occupation.’ So, we thought oh, what a shame. ‘Is there nothing whatsoever?’ He said, ‘Well, there are two outlets for volunteers and one is aircrew with the RAF and the other is with submarines in the Royal Navy.’ So we both immediately said, ‘Aircrew. We’ll go for aircrew.’ So he took our names and addresses and sent us home. And then it was some weeks later we got a call up if you like for necessary interviews, a selection board which was required for RAF where you sat before a board of, of, of aircrew officers and they would fire questions at you. Mathematical questions. All to do with your education. What standard you were at. And eventually after that selection board we then had a further day of medical. Medical examinations which was one of the strictest medicals I’ve ever undertaken. And eventually we were accepted, given the little lapel badge of the RAF Volunteer Reserve to, so that members, any members of the public who were inclined to criticise young lads that weren’t joining up could see that we were already accepted into the RAF Volunteer Reserve. We were sent home then to await call up. Eventually from there I think it must have been quite some weeks later we were, I got a draft to, to go, a rail draft to go down to London and, and make for Lords Cricket Ground which was then, in those days we didn’t realise it but it was a big recruiting centre for aircrew. And that’s where I spent my initial days. In the Regent’s Park area. We were billeted in some new flats in Hall Road in St Johns Wood and a lot of our marching was all around the areas of, of London. And of course part of our uniform then was a little white flash that we, we wore in our forage caps to indicate that we were trainee aircrew and that was quite treasured by us young lads, you know. It was quite something to distinguish you, if you like from anybody else. And we used to march around very proudly around the streets of London. Hall Road and the Great North Road out from Marble Arch. All around that area. And Regent’s Park. And they were exciting days in those days. All young lads together billeted in these new flats. No bedding of course. You just had a straw mattress that you were given which was on the floor and a brass ashtray in the middle which you had to keep highly polished. But it was great fun in those days.
[recording paused]
I didn’t, that’s another story actually is I joined up with, he went to a different place. He was called up at a different time to me so I never saw him again but strangely enough oh in about nineteen, 1960s I think it was I was working then running a safari camp in East Africa. In Kenya. I’d got into the safari business and we used to go to the rail head every now and again to collect supplies at a place called Mtito Andei and at this, at this, there was a little hotel. It was a halfway route between Nairobi and Mombasa and I went in there one day in to the bar and who do I meet but Dougie Irving who, who we had both volunteered to join up with way back in ’39. So that was quite a meeting. After, after Lord’s Cricket Ground if I remember rightly we were shipped to a village up in Shropshire called Ludlow and during these early stages because the flying schools, elementary flying schools and all that were all very much crowded. They were looking for jobs to keep all us young fellas occupied and they sent us to, it was a big estate in, in Ludlow. I forget who it belonged to. Some member of the aristocracy. But Ludlow I can always remember, and we were supposed, we were told supposedly we were building roads on this estate. Very convenient for the owner but we were told that it was part of our toughening up, and there we went through very strict disciplinary training. We had the corporals there who were very, very strict in our training. So our early training was along the lines of strict yeah in every aspect of strict but also to speed up our thinking and our reactions and what have you. So everything was done very, very quickly. And I can remember after that, later on I went to ITW which was in Aberystwyth in Wales where we did all the educational subjects, all the ground subjects of flying — navigation, aero engines and so on and so forth, and our instructor there was a Welshman called Tommy Barnes who was at that time, I think a middleweight champion boxer. And what he, he was a great a real human character, he loved, he used to take us, march us out into the country and then stop us outside a pub somewhere and say, ‘Well, I’m going in there for a drink. You chaps can do what you like for the next half hour.’ Of course, we all gravitated into the pub. But when we met, he met us on train coming in he said, ‘Now, you’ve probably been told that you will march at such and such a pace here,’ he said, ‘But,’ he said, ‘That’s a lot of bullshit.’ He said, ‘We do it faster than that.’ We, we marched like the old Green Jackets, I believe which was a hundred and forty paces to the minute. So everything was smart and quick in, in marching and in drill. It was all to get the mind really working and it certainly worked. We were billeted in a very nice hotel. Stripped of all the furniture of course but it was good accommodation on the seafront at Aberystwyth and there we sat all our exams. All our ground subject’s exams. All of us youngsters had one single ambition and that was because of what we had witnessed in the Battle of Britain. All the young boys quite naturally their age wanting adventure. All wanted to be fighter, fighter pilots. But then of course the whole campaign, aerial campaign was expanding and strategic warfare was coming into place long distance which the RAF had never experienced before. Long distance navigation and long distance bombing into, into Germany. So they introduced a scheme called the PNB scheme, which was the pilot, navigator, bomb aimer scheme because they were wanting so many different types. Prior to that they’d only wanted pilots and observers. So we, there really was the whole Air Force was expanding in to various categories. And eventually we went to Flying School which was in Brough in Yorkshire just outside I think, believe close to Hull. There was an aircraft factory there but also a strip which they had turned into a training ground. There I went on to really find out what flying was all about. We were introduced to the Tiger Moth and taught how to fly the Tiger Moth. And funnily enough the Tiger has got, when you open the throttle, has got quite a sorry, quite an extreme torque, which, and it tends to swing to the right. So the introduction that the pilot instructor gives you is that he gives you the pedals, he takes charge of everything else. He gives you the pedals and he pointed to a chimney. A tall chimney on the horizon. He said, ‘Now, I want you to head the plane towards that chimney.’ Of course, as he opens the throttle it swings around to the right so naturally you instinctively hit the left pedal and it swings to the left. So your initiation of flying you’re going down the runway or, yeah just weaving from side to side. So it teaches you really what, what is happening in, when you open the throttles what to expect. And then later on of course you then when you start flying you then come around to the landings and landings were extremely difficult because the early aircraft in those days, the Tiger in particular had a tail wind. It didn’t have a nose wind. It had a tail wind so you had two, a main undercarriage and you had a tail wheel and the idea there was to put all those three points down at the same time. Known as a three point landing. And that was very difficult. What you had to do was when you were coming in to land is you’re gradually pulling the stick back until you get to an estimated twenty feet off the ground and then you ease the, ease the stick, it was only a stick right back in in to your, in to your middle. So then if everything has gone right you then adopt a stalling attitude and down it sits on the three wheels which are the three points which all sounded very interesting but very difficult to find. So you finish up usually either estimating your height wrong and you suddenly drop out of the sky at about thirty feet and you finish up bouncing along the runway. So that’s the most difficult thing in flying. Then once you start flying the first thing they teach you then is how to get out of a spin because you could get into a spin very easily when you’re learning to fly. You stall your aircraft and whichever rudder you’ve got on you will spin and you are heading for earth and that is quite an experience. What you do there is you pull the stick right back. When you’re at a reasonable attitude pull the stick right back and get the nose of the aircraft coming up until eventually you stall. As you are stalling you kick the pedal depending on which way you want to spin. Right or left. And your aircraft finishes up then going down in a vertical dive either clockwise or anti-clockwise. Quite an experience to see the earth going around beneath you like a record. But then you have to then centralise your, your controls because you can’t get it out of the spin without you’ve done that because you’ve lost control. Your stick is floppy. Everything. Your rudders. It’s all, it’s all gone. There’s no control whatsoever. So what you have to do then is centralise your stick. Push your stick right forward and then give it a pedal the opposite to the way you’re rotating until eventually you finish up in a straight dive and then you pull the stick gently back into your stomach and you come out of the dive. So that’s the first thing they teach you. And then after that then they teach you the rest of flying. Rate one turns, turns starboard or port and they then rate it at rate one, rate two, rate three, rate four. Rate four would be a complete right angle. So you had various degrees. Again, this was a difficult aspect to get together because you had to have the right amount of rudder and the right amount of stick on it to, to control your ailerons and your rudder. And if you, if you didn’t control it right you were either skidding or you were slipping in so your turn had to be on the clock at rate one, rate two and you were following this clock. And that was another difficult point of, of flying but the whole experience was, was quite fantastic. I had two instructors over that period. My first one was a sergeant pilot who had never been in combat but then later on for some reason or other he didn’t turn up and I had a Battle of Britain, a Battle of Britain man. His method with the control was quite different. When being taught by the first instructor everything was done gently and smoothly. When I had this Battle of Britain pilot he said, ‘Come on. Bring it down and turn. Come on. Move the stick. Really move it.’ So, he was teaching you really to do everything quite positive and fast, you know. None of this gentle business. You wouldn’t have time for that in combat. The whole lot was, was quite different, and I did eight hours in that actually. And then during that period we were then went through a selective progress. You were doing various aspects of mathematical calculations. Night vision exercises. All sorts of varying exercises. What they, what they were trying to do at the time then was to see which category of aircrew would, you would be most suited to. I, I don’t know whether that was the reason but I particular, I had particular good night vision so I finished up being selected as trainee as a bomb aimer. And later on after going to Heaton Park outside of Manchester which was a big collection point if you like for all the different categories that they were looking for. A school where you could actually go and finish. Finish off your flying. And I finished up then being sent to Blackpool which was used as an embarkation centre and we were shipped down to Liverpool and from there went, I found myself on a convoy heading for South Africa. The journey by convoy to South Africa was quite interesting. It transpired, we didn’t realise it at the time it was one of the biggest convoys going because they were also shipping troops to the Middle East and to Singapore out to the Far East. And we were about, I think in all we were something like five or six weeks at sea because we were all over the Atlantic to avoid U-boat wolf packs, which were operating at the time. I think we had something like twenty three ships in the convoy. All loaded with troops. I was on the Strathmore which we had, I think, I believe it was about something like five thousand troops which was quite something, and we were billeted on all sorts of decks and usually the accommodation was a bunk. There wasn’t the room for enough bedding and that was an experience. That was my first sea voyage out into the Atlantic and experiencing some of the very deep waves. But as I say we were about, about six weeks. Eventually we had the usual crossing the line procedure when we crossed the equator and going down the west coast of Africa my first contact actually with Africa was in Sierra Leone. Freetown. That was quite an education, where we didn’t get ashore there but we were dropping off some troops then that were known as the West African Frontier Force who wore hats very much like the Australians with the, with the side up at one time. And but that was quite interesting. And then to pull in to African ports in those days we’re talking you know way back in the ‘30s and early ‘40s was quite something. It was like the famous, “Sanders of the River.” I think that was made many many years ago with, I think a man, an American singer called Paul Robeson. But it was quite a sight to see the village as it probably was then of Sierra Leone with all the grass huts and what have you and all the natives were coming out in what were termed bumboats and they were all after trading what little they had with the troops on board. But also they developed a habit. Some of the troops would throw coins over the side and these natives would go diving after pennies and it was quite remarkable. So, we had twenty four entertainment there with the local natives and for money and that we’d throw over the side for them they would load a little basket with probably things like pineapples, fruit and stuff coming up which we had never experienced then. It was quite something. And then from there on we went down the west coast of Africa which was my first experience of the sight then of German, used to be German West Africa which is now nowadays Namibia. And on from there seeing the sights of, of tropical seas with flying fish coming out of the water, flying alongside the troop ships. Dolphins and porpoise. And first experience of seeing a whale. The sperm whale spouting water off the coast. Fascinating. Until eventually we came within sight of Cape Town to see the famous Table Mountain. We were in Cape Town for I think twenty four hours while they took on board some fuel and supplies and then on to Durban where we, of the RAF that were going to train there disembarked. The rest of the troops on board were going on to the Far East and Singapore. Little did they know unfortunately, at the time as fast as they were arriving there they were being taken prisoner by the Japs because we were losing Singapore then. But and then we were, we had a lady, I forget what her name was now, a South African lady, a Zulu, a very big stout lady had a fantastic voice and I believe she met every troop ship in by, she was standing on the quay and she would sing songs. And it was, it was something I’ve always remembered. She had a marvellous voice. She became really well known because her reputation, she met in every troop ship that was going around South Africa. And then we were shipped out to an ex-race course in, in just outside of Durban called Clairwood. Used to be a horse racing course and there we, it was like a distribution centre again, if you like until we were sent to the various flying schools. Later on I was sent to Port Elizabeth, to 42 Air School I think it was. Here two air schools. Went to one at Port Elizabeth and later on another at East London where we did various aspects and here we went to our bombing training which was mainly what we’d being bomb training for but also training in navigation and air gunnery. So a lot of different aspects of aerial combat. Our bombing targets were out in the Indian Ocean. It was a twelve foot square raft I think painted orange or yellow and that was our target. And I had the privilege in that time in the whole of Bombing School of breaking the Bombing School record by every, every one of my exercises had been within I think it was a hundred yards diameter of the target and I broke the record there. So right close to the end I had one that was not as good as my previous ones and the query going on then amongst the pilots was because they had a bet on, I believe to see when I would have a fail. Fail one. This went on but then they discovered it was they had a hole in the tailplane of the aircraft which was causing it. They put that down as an excuse. But then anyway later on air gunnery training. Flying at low level and there we came across the, the Lewis gun. Lewis machine gun and the Thompson sub-machine gun. Using those flying at low level firing those at ground targets. So the training was pretty comprehensive until on the Christmas Eve of [pause] when would that be? It would 1943, I think. I think, I think we had Wings Parade and we all got our wings which was a very proud moment. Our bombing training usually took place in the Avro Anson which was a strange aircraft. It used to flap its wings like, like nobody’s business you know which made you a little bit nervous but then, you know we were told so long as it moves its ok. Mobility is fine. When it’s too stiff no good. And, but the thing about the Anson, our bombing bay where the bomb aimer in training used to lie was, was like, it was a sliding door. It wasn’t as later on we had Perspex. It was a sliding door which you slid back. So in effect you were looking out over open space which took a little bit of getting used to. And that was the Avro Anson. Our gunnery and navigation was done on Airspeed Oxfords. But as I say both schools at Port Elizabeth and East London. But there were good aircraft but nowadays very ancient aircraft but the Anson was a very popular aircraft in its day.
[recording paused]
Time off we were given. The South Africans were very hospitable people. We had, we had one difficult group amongst them, in amongst the Afrikaaners in particularly. I think they were called the [unclear] I think, which was Afrikaans. But they were not so much pro-German but anti-British because of the reputation of the British in the Boer War when a lot of the Afrikaaners died in, in what was then the first type of concentration camp. And we had to be very careful sometimes. Especially if we were out at night and coming back, walking back to camp. We had one or two of our lads would be hijacked by these people and, you know taken miles out, in to, in to the bush sort of thing and either beaten up or stripped of clothing. And apart from that the South Africans were very hospitable. So, their homes and their farms, many of them were farmers were open to us boys. One particular farm I went to at a place called Tarkastad and it turned out they were lovely people there. Turned out that they were descendants of Nelson. How, how it came about I don’t know but that was what they, they told us. That the, I think it was the lady was a descendant of Lord Nelson, Admiral Nelson. But they were lovely people. At that, at the same time I took up dancing for something to do. Ballroom dancing. And another chap and I called Pat Keene who later on unfortunately we lost on operations, but he was a great buddy of mine and we took up dancing together and we had then the youngest dancing teacher in South Africa. She was only seventeen, I think. A girl called Ada Krueger. And there again they were a lovely family. We were often invited in to their home, and I finished up eventually one evening with Ada doing an exhibition dance. And I can always remember when she was teaching the tango. The tango in those days you had to keep body contact with the right side against the, against the, your partner’s side. Always close contact. A very passionate dance. A very emotional dance. But then we always found something to do. And the people as I say were lovely. They really were lovely. Until the day arrived as I say when we got our wings and the future ahead of us. We were then waiting to be shipped. We didn’t know where to. It was either to be the Middle East or back home to the UK. In my case it turned out to be the Middle East. I was posted up to Egypt and then eventually on to Palestine where I did my operational training. On the way up we found it very interesting. Putting into the ports of Mozambique which was then Portuguese East Africa, seeing Zanzibar and Madagascar from the ship in the distance on the horizon and then were pulling into Mombasa. And we were in Mombasa for twenty four hours. Again, that was fascinating to see an early African port as it was in those days. We were not allowed ashore of course so it was a question of always wondering what, what lay beyond the palm trees and the horizon little knowing that some years later I would be emigrating to this country and spending thirty odd years there. That was fantastic. But the morning we left Mombasa it was a Sunday morning and it was church service on board the ship. And we were about an hour, two or three hours away from Mombasa heading north when we were having church service and the padre announced to us that a ship that had passed us going towards Mombasa an hour before had been sunk by a submarine. So we must have come within sight of that U-boat commander but either he wasn’t interested in us or he couldn’t catch us because we were then alone. We were no longer in convoy. We were moving as fast as the, the ship would take us then and, and weaving around. So maybe we were fortunate in being a difficult location for the U-boat commander. But the ship that had passed us going towards Mombasa a couple of hours before had been sunk. Our next port of call then was, would be, I think Somaliland. We pulled in to Djibouti, I think it was and then on to Aden. Aden of course then was a, was a British possession or colony. So that was quite an experience to see the sights of Aden. Again we didn’t go ashore. We had lots going on with the latest coming on to the boat. That was a lot of fun. And of course we were entering in to the Red Sea then and that, was very, very hot because you had land on both sides port and starboard within view and it was very, very hot indeed. And it was so hot, that’s where I believe the expression ‘posh’ came from. In the Indian days when you were sailing, sailing as it was in those days. People going out to India had a saying you go out, say port side out and starboard side back so you had the best side of the ship to, to the cooler side of the ship both ways. And that’s, I believe the origin of the famous word POSH. Port Out, Starboard Home. Then we had the experience of the Suez Canal. We went ashore at [pause] not Suez. Yes. We went ashore at Suez for a little while and then we were told we were disembarking then and going to Cairo. We went to Cairo and in to Cairo we, again a big selection. A big centre. I forget what you would call them now. Like a demarcation where all categories of all types were all placed in there ready to be posted to various units and we found ourselves then posted to Palestine where I did my operational training and converted then on to Wellingtons. And that was an education because the Palestinians then were becoming very difficult. The, the, many of the Jewish refugees from, from Europe were wanting to settle in Palestine and there was lots of conflict going on at the time. And again they had two terrorist organisations. Oh dear, I did know the name of them. I can’t forget. I can’t remember the name now but they, they were, again we had to be wary because sometimes our lads could be treated, you know pretty roughly if if they got their hands on any of us. But at the same time the population as a whole again were very generous and it was really good. We had, I think seven weeks I think in an operational training where we were converting on to Wellingtons. That I would say was equally, as equally traumatic in training as operations because converting then from smaller aircraft where you had instructors converting on to, in this case the bomber aircraft, the Wellington, a much bigger aircraft where you initially had instructors and after that you were on your own. So then you were learning to fly under such conditions and it was tough and we lost a lot of members there. At one time we went through a period where we were having funeral parades almost every day and you were losing a lot of the lads you’d trained with just in operational training. We did have one incident. We were attacked by enemy and that was, we were on a navigational exercise up to the Lebanon from Palestine. Up in to the Lebanon and I was at the controls at the time because I was also training to be a co-pilot as well and flying along merrily there in the pitch black and suddenly found tracer fire coming from behind us over the wing. So I took the necessary evasive action and then nothing happened. He disappeared. We can only assume that he came from Crete which the Germans had occupied then and obviously realised that bomber crews were training there so they were having a go at some of us novices. But that was the only incident. Bombing exercises were a little more difficult. Our targets then were out in the desert at Jordan and funnily enough when you were flying over the desert we found navigation exercises over the Egyptian and desert in those days very, very difficult because you’d got no landmarks whatsoever and its sometimes difficult. And this time we were trying to find a target measuring something about twelve yards square in, in the desert is extremely difficult. But then we were using real bombs and in training in South Africa they were only eleven and a half pound practice bombs. Now, we were going on to much bigger ones. Two hundred and fifty pounders. One or two tricky incidents that we experienced. One, one was, we were flying at night over the Jordanian desert I think it was when suddenly there were navigation lights coming straight towards us and our pilot who was an Australian called Hack Butler instead of, as one should have when you meet aircraft coming towards you, you turn port to port. So when you see the red light which is a navigational light you turn to, you turn away. But this time our skipper decided to go underneath the approaching aircraft. He did a quick dive. And as he did a quick dive I left my seat which was in the dickie seat next to the pilot, banged my head on the roof. But then I immediately thought then that everything sort of leapt out of, I immediately thought in the back in the fuselage we had two one hundred pound magnesium photoflashes which when you press the bomb tit and your bombs went away the photoflash took a photograph of what you were doing and I immediately thought what would happen to these because these were only lying in the flare chute and gravitation was the only thing holding them there. So I immediately thought my God maybe these things have been pulled out. I, I’ve never moved so fast in all my life. There was no question of of, of fear whatsoever. It was just a reaction and I thought I’ve got to do this whatever the precaution I was going to take. It had to do it quick because we only had seconds. If the cable had pulled the detonator on these fuses we’d be blown out of the sky. And I went over the main, the Wellington had a main spar between the wings which cut across the fuselage and that was in a confined aircraft sometimes difficult to, to cross over. That’s where the navigator and wireless operator sat. I don’t remember clearing that at all. Went straight over it and there I found my two flash bombs had actually pulled out but, and I quickly rubbed my hands together unscrewing the detonator caps hoping it hadn’t been struck. And I was lucky. It was ok. I took the detonators out but that was a, that was a close call. I got marked in my logbook after that. The bombing leader marked me down as, “This man is very erratic in his behaviour. May improve on a squadron.” That was put in my logbook which I thought was quite funny. And another time we had the roof hatch flew open on us. It obviously hadn’t been connected properly. It flew open on us. So it was my job, I was standing on my seat with the wireless operator and navigator holding on to my belt while I pulled the doors and then closed them. So I was standing there with the top half of me sticking out of the fuselage. All down to, if you like inexperience. We were young lads training there. And how we joined together as as aircrews is rather interesting. Unlike the Americans where the Americans usually allocated who you flew with the Air Force adopted a voluntary basis and when we arrived at the transit place in Jerusalem when we first arrived in Palestine we were all, all together and you would meet in, in hallways for lectures and all sorts of things. So you were all mixing together and this was, you were given then the opportunity if you joined up with somebody else or you made pals with a navigator or an air gunner and you got on quite well together you asked, ‘Shall we fly together?’ And this was how the RAF then formed their crews together which was very good because it was, it was left to the human individual to pick. And we had quite a mixture. The pilot was Australian. My navigator was a very serious man called Geoff Partridge. He was from Cheltenham. Myself and my wireless operator were from Liverpool. Both from Liverpool. We were both Liverpudlians. And our tail gunner was a West Indian, Arthur Skerritt and he was quite a character. And from then on we were flying together. I suppose almost a year as a crew. And that is in itself is quite an experience. You fly together through all sorts of conditions as a crew. As a team if you like which your strongest member is your weakest link if you like and you come together as a family so that later on when you find yourself on operations, usually you kept silence unless there was anything needed, any need to talk because you were looking out for enemy aircraft all the time. You could tell by the inflection in a man’s voice, whoever it was talking, how he felt. And that, you didn’t want to let your comrades down. So this welded you together weak or strong. Whatever it was which you knew each other intimately by the sound of their voice, how they felt and what have you which counted for a lot when it came to operations later on. On completion of, of operational training we were sent back to Cairo, to Heliopolis again, to the transit camp and then from there on we were shipped this time as a crew by the old, the old faithful DC3 and we, they flew us to Foggia in southern Italy where we joined 205 Group RAF, and attached to the American 15th Air Force. And we then became part of what was known as the Mediterranean Allied Strategic Command which was broken up into three. You had a Strategic Command which we were attached to. The American 15th Air Force where we used to do the daylight bombing mostly and sorry, where the Americans would do their daylight bombing mostly. We would, most, most of our operations were night time operations but we worked together then for squadron for something like seven months I think, in which time I did thirty nine operations. But it was, it was again an experience. Typical of, of RAF or British if you like. We RAF members, we had ten squadrons all, well, eight squadrons. Two South African squadrons of the Royal Air Force and then they formed in different Wings. I was with 40 Squadron and 104 Squadron of 236 Wing. And there we operated on for the whole of the period that we were there. Very often the Americans were on the same airfield. They lived in a style of luxury that, yeah they flew, they had casualties, they did a marvellous job but their accommodation was far superior to ours, their food was far superior, in fact if I can remember, our food was mostly dehydrated and it was terrible stuff. Potatoes. Dehydrated potatoes was like rice pudding. Terrible. And I did the whole period, seven to nine months on the squadron I can’t remember getting an egg through our own people. I think later on I think a lot of it was going on the black market because the Italians were, were starving. They really were. So we, we used to scrimp and scrape. I remember Christmas time when we pooled together and I think we paid about seventy pounds for a pig. So we had roast pork for Christmas dinner. But we could trade with the Americans. The only thing Americans lacked was Scotch Whisky and aircrew, NCOs and officers got a spirit ration. So for a bottle of Scotch Whisky you’d get a jeep from the Americans. For a crate they’d give you an aircraft. But it was quite amusing but they had everything. We were under canvas, old torn shredded tents from the desert campaign which were alright in the Italian summer but in the Italian winter then of ’44 and ‘45 was dreadful. Feet, feet of snow all over the place and cold. We’d reached the stage we had no heating in the tents. We were make do and mend until eventually our group captain signalled headquarters and said, ‘If I don’t get heating for my aircrew and ground crew I can’t guarantee the efficiency of, of my Group.’ And we got, within twenty four hours we got Valor stoves. So they were there. Somebody had them somewhere. But a lot of it then was black market. You could get about seventy five pounds which in those days was a lot of money for a flying jacket off the Italians, you know. But you always had to watch who you were dealing with on the, on the black market because the RAF had special branch there amongst them and if you were caught trading any RAF stuff you were for it. But an interesting time as well as, as well as an experience time to be flying operations. When my, my first operation by the way was to the south of France. That was the invasion of southern France which was six weeks I think after D-Day. That was my first operation. Reasonably calm one. We saw a lot of our ships. Convoy of ships going in over sea. We had to make sure our IFF which was a signal you’d send from the aircraft automatically Identification Friend or Foe. If you didn’t have that switched on the Navy boys would open fire on you no trouble at all. They wouldn’t wait. But it was a fairly eventless operation. We succeeded in bombing the dock, the docks at Marseilles and then back. That was a very interesting operation. We were flying in to the sun so we were following the sun. Quite a strange experience. But my second operation was my real baptism of fire. In those days in Europe there were, the enemy were relying on, because Germany itself produced no fuel, only synthetic oil a lot of the oil was coming from the Caucasus in the Ukraine and the Ploieşti oil fields of Romania. Because of their value of course they were both very heavily defended. The Russian advance then which was beginning was retaking the Caucasus, so the Germans apart from odd satellite oil fields in the odd country here and there their biggest supply was the Ploieşti oilfields at Romania which were quite notorious. And the enemy we were told was relying on about sixty percent of its fuel oil and it was then at the stage where it was fighting for its existence. And the oil then was transposed from Romania which was very close to the Black Sea. So it was quite an operation, and also when you were getting briefed in Nissen huts which we had then, all assembled, all the air crews that were flying that day you were allocated a flight. You had A Flight, B Flight and you were told that morning which flight you was, on the flight board there whether you were operational that day, that night or not and you would assemble in a Nissen hut. In the Nissen hut everybody, all the aircrew all together all chatting away you know. All you could hear is gabble, gabble, gabble gabble but I’d never seen a Nissen hut go quiet so quickly as when the intelligence officer stands up and he says, ‘Good evening gentlemen. Your target for tonight is — ’ and he would tell you what the target was. When he mentioned Ploieşti the whole Nissen hut went dead quiet because we knew what the opposition was there. It was a, I don’t know something like maybe a six hundred mile flight there over enemy territory. Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, heavily patrolled by night fighters and then also we were told that they had two elite squadrons. I believe they were Romanian squadrons but flying the famous 109, F109. The 109 was I think produced by Focke as well as, as the, other aircraft. I can’t think what the other manufacturer is now. If somebody, anyway, that’s beside the point two squadrons who would be over the target because they were, they were elite squadrons and they weren’t afraid of even though their own defensive fire was going up into the sky they weren’t afraid of flying in amongst the bombers. So, and plus the fact that the whole oil fields, the whole area was surrounded by very massive ack ack fire. I mean the famous JU88 anti-aircraft gun which was notorious on the German side plus many light ack ack all dug in in the hills. It was forming an umbrella if you like over the target. Really something to contend with and also they had masses of searchlights. Amongst the searchlights you had what we call, what were known as master searchlights which were a very intensive blue one and they were controlled by radar. So they would track you by radar and get you. And if you ever got one of these master searchlights on you then all the other searchlights would cone in and they would get you in a cone. And we used to say if you were caught in a cone it’s like walking down Piccadilly naked you know. And you really felt sometimes it was quite something to get out of. So we were always advised then never to fly straight and level for more than about twenty five seconds at a time because that’s how long it would take the enemy to track you, get a shell in their gun and get it to where you were supposed to be. So we were always, going in towards the target, lots of evasive action. You were looking out for night fighters as well, and a hell of a lot going on. So you’d not only be bounced around the sky by ack ack fire, you could even smell the cordite but you were also dodging and weaving the, the searchlights and everything and the sky was full of smoke. But also running up to the target you could see tracer fire both from the ground and from our own boys going in. First of all the Pathfinders ahead of us. They would be answering enemy fire with their own gunners. So, it was like, it was like a Dante’s Inferno ahead of you, you know. The, the target indicators. The Pathfinders used to drop red, no green I think in the first instance. No. They would like to light the place up with flares. Just fill the sky with flares lighting up. From the flares they themselves would hope to identify the target proper. And if so then they would drop green target indicators usually if they could in the form of a triangle. In the middle of that triangle was your target. If they found, the following Pathfinders found that they were spot on then they would drop red target indicators right on the target so we had three forms of target observation to bomb on. First of all the red indicators. If we saw those, if they were in place. Sometimes they weren’t. Green as a result if the red ones weren’t there. If they weren’t there then you bombed visual because you’d memorised from the photographs of the area. You’d memorised what your aiming point was. And that was the critical time when you were coming up to the target when you’d got no choice. You had to stay straight and level and that’s when you were holding your breath. And that’s when your training and your discipline comes in to being because as a bomb aimer I know my crew had fought hard to get me there, it’s now up to me to do the job properly. So they’re listening to my voice giving corrections, ‘Left. Left. Steady. Right. Steady.’ Correcting the pilot, trying to get my target in the tram lines, and, and keep it there and hope to God while you’re doing that you’ve got to stay in the air. One time we had, on the run in we had an aircraft, one of ours just disappeared in an orange flash. He’d obviously been, had a direct hit either in his bomb bay or fuel tanks and that was quite chilling when you saw that sort of thing happening. Also you see flaming aircraft going down around you. So it’s, it’s Dante’s Inferno. It really was something. And this was only my second operation. Anyway, we managed to, to, to get to the target ok, dodging all the flak. You could even smell the cordite as you were going through and I dropped my bombs. Just as I dropped my bombs a yell from the, from the, from the gunner saying there was a fighter coming in starboard quarter up because you divided your aircraft in to sections. And the air gunner would tell you then and also at the same time that he heard it the wireless operator was doing nothing because you had radio silence, so he’s standing in the astrodome also helping to look out for night fighters and he yelled another one coming in from starboard. So we had two fighters coming in on us. Now, the critical point here if you are a really good gunner. He’s well trained and keeps his cool he’s firing his machine guns by, he had a graticule of sights which are circles and if he identified the enemy aircraft that’s coming at him then he knows what type it is. He also knows what sort of armament it’s got and what range he’s likely to open fire, if your air gunner is right on the ball and I reckon our chap was. So he would say where the aircraft was coming in from. In this instance was coming in from starboard and the gunner had said his was coming in from starboard quarter up. So in other words coming in from the top. So this indicated when he, when he’d estimated that the enemy would open fire he would, first of all he would say, ‘Enemy fighter coming in. Starboard quarter up. Stand by.’ [pause] ‘Corkscrew starboard.’ So you always corkscrewed, which was an evasive action in the direction of the enemy fighter because that narrows the angle and, and it makes it more difficult for him to keep his, his sights on you. Also, he’s travelling faster than you are too. A lot faster. So, if your gunner’s got it right then he would shout, ‘Now.’ And immediately we had that, ‘now,’ then we would, up front we were waiting by. We had the warning from him telling us which way to start our corkscrew. As soon as he yelled, ‘now,’ that’s when we would start it, and when he estimated the enemy was going to open fire. And when he shouted, ‘now,’ in this instance we immediately started a climbing turn to, to port. We were going to starboard. We were going to starboard, the same side that he was approaching. We were also going up because he was approaching from up. So we were trying to make it as difficult as possible for him to maintain his sights on you. Yeah. Fighters coming in that way so you’re doing, you were starting your corkscrew there. And a corkscrew literally was you’re climbing, you’re diving, you’re climbing, you’re diving and you’re alternating all the time to try and make it as difficult as possible for the enemy to keep his sights on you. And that was quite important. Anyway, we managed to shake them both off. But as we were doing that, up front we saw our airspeed indicator was down to stalling speed as we thought. So we thought Christ we’re going to fall out the sky any minute. So immediately, do you remember we were talking about spinning, how to get out of a spin? We immediately thought we would get in to a stall here which would be bloody difficult with a big aircraft. So immediately we pushed the sticks forward to gain airspeed. It was only after a few seconds we realised we weren’t stalling at all we were actually diving because what happens is when you throw the, all your instruments on a Wellington are controlled by a gyro. When you’re throwing the aircraft around the sky these gyros get toppled and it takes about twenty minutes for your instruments to come back working. But then you are really flying by the seat of your pants. And so we found ourselves in a steep dive. We thought Christ, you know, the wings are going to come off. It took two of us on the controls to pull it back. And we could feel the aircraft juddering as we were pulling it out of the dive, and we finished up almost down in amongst the, all the derricks, and down in amongst all the flaming chaos. So we thought we’d survived the dive. We got out of it alright so we thought we’d stay low. Anyway, we’d already bombed our target, our bombs and we thought we were keeping low because night fighters don’t like fighting at low level at night so we stayed quite low level for, for quite a bit until we got well clear of the target area and then we resumed our cruising flight then to go home. But even then we still had two hundred, six hundred miles of, of control we were told by night fighters, about two hundred controlling the approaches to and from the target. So it was a very difficult target Ploieşti. And that was my second operation but it taught us an awful lot. We survived it but it taught us an awful lot and enabled us to get through thirty seven more.
[recording paused]
The rest of the tour, I completed thirty nine operations in all, the rest of the tour varied from bombing targets. Some of the targets we had on the squadron were mine laying along the Danube. They were quite dangerous ones because it was low level and if ever you were hit at those, those sort of heights you had no chance whatsoever of parachuting or even recovering. So they were very very difficult. We lost a few of our chaps on those low level mining of the Danube. We were occasionally, one time we were bombing tank works. I think it was in Austria. Herman Goering tank works in Austria. We were coming back from that one and we must have been hit in our port engine because we had a fire in the port engine and also we noticed we were losing fuel, and consequently we were finding it very difficult getting back home and maintaining height. So we had to break radio silence then because normally when you were well away from your target you would radio base to say that you were coming home and they were ready, preparing for you. In this instance we had to break radio silence and we told base that we wouldn’t make home. We’d lost an engine, had an engine on fire and that we were losing height. So they gave us an alternative which we had no idea where it was. Somewhere in the western part of Italy near the coast. But they were just, all we had were coordinates and we had a wonderful navigator. Our navigator, he was so good. He never liked flying. He used to lock himself away in his, in his navigation cupboard especially when we were over the target. He would lock himself away and keep quiet there and, but he was a super navigator. So much so we christened him Pigeon. He was like a homing pigeon. Very rarely would we have to change the, change the original navigational ports that he’d given us. He used to correct it now and again on the way. But this time we got these coordinates and as an alternative landing strip. We had no idea who it was. Where it was. We knew by the look of the, the coordinates it was somewhere near the front. The front line. So we just hoped to God we weren’t going to come down in enemy territory. Anyway, we managed to put the fire out on the aircraft and we were aiming for these coordinates. Pitch black night it was. Absolutely pitch black. We were losing, losing height and we were getting a little bit worried here you know. Nothing to see. We had no idea where we were, or the new direction we were heading and all these coordinates, and we were losing height and we were, eventually we got out about fifteen hundred feet and we thought we’re going to have to consider possibly ditching in the, in the sea just off the west coast of Italy. When we were thinking about this suddenly ahead of us came two lines of lights and they would be acetylene torches in those days. Many landing strips used these as, as marking our landing strip and we saw two of these. We thought thank God for that. We’re going to get down. Didn’t know whose airstrip it was. So, anyway normally when you’re going in to land if it’s an emergency you would fire off a red signal and hope to get a green one in reply. So we were going to, we were going in anyway because we were so, that we had no option. So we fired a red, a red flare to show that we were, that it was an urgent landing. We were coming in. Anyway, we managed to safely touch down, ran along the runway and just as we turned off the runway at the end our final engine because we only had two engines in the Wellington kicked off. That’s, so we had really come home on a wing and a prayer. But were we home? We didn’t know. We climbed down the ladder to get out of the aircraft. We saw two jeeps coming towards us with chaps in fatigues armed to the bloody teeth. So we got out and stuck our hands up in the air and said to the best of languages which is that we were allied airmen. Not a word was said to us. We were both, all pointed to go in to both of these jeeps. Couldn’t understand the language. It certainly wasn’t Italian. You know. We thought where the bloody hell are we? You know. It’s not German either. Anyway, we finished up in a Nissen hut two or three hundred yards away. When we went into the Nissen hut we were approached by a tall officer in, in battle fatigues but he also had wings up and he said in perfect English, he said, ‘Good evening gentlemen. We’ve been expecting you. Welcome to Brazil.’ We had landed unbeknownst at a Brazilian fighter bomber base which was part of course of the Tactical Strategic Command attached to, attached to the American Air Force. None of us knew at the time that Brazil was even in the war. Anyway, they gave us a wonderful time for about four days we were there. They sent for our own Maintenance Unit. They obviously told our squadron that we’d landed alright and we were safe and they sent their own Maintenance Unit to sort out our Wellington and get it, get it flying. We had a wonderful time while we were there. We realised that we were I think just north, just north I think of Rome or just south of Rome. We were close to Rome anyway so we hitchhiked in to Rome and that was the quite a, the first time I’d ever seen Rome. It was quite a colourful episode because there were troops and there were allied airmen, troops all over the place in different uniforms, and mostly armed to the teeth. But Rome was very peaceful because the Germans had pulled out of Rome and they’d left it an open city because it’s such a biblical and historical city they didn’t, they had that at least humanity about them. So that was quite enjoyable. Anyway, we eventually when we got to, our own unit had fixed our aircraft ready to go and the, the mess boys wouldn’t think of us settling our mess bill with them. We got that for free. So we thought, well right, this is a fighter bomber unit so let’s give them a fighter bomber take off. So we did, with our Wellington. As we got airborne although we didn’t, we didn’t pull back on the stick to get straight up we kept as low as we could and gave the boys a really, really fighter take off. They were all lining the airstrip waving us off. That was a fantastic time but then for us it was reality. We were then going back to, to our own bomber unit. Back into reality. Back in to, in to the war. So that was an exciting episode. Getting home on a wing and a prayer [laughs]. At the end of operations the group then was a mixture. 205 Group was a mixture of Wellingtons. We had ten squadrons of Wellingtons but also a mixture of Halifaxes and Liberators, American Liberators which the RAF were using then. We were converting on to those but because we had done at this stage done thirty nine operations, and it was decided it wasn’t worth, we were getting near the end of our tour anyway, it wasn’t worth bothering to, to transfer to a different type of bomber. So we were made tour expired which was quite a relief to be suddenly told, ‘Right. You’re finished chaps. You’ve done your operations now. You’re going back. Back home.’ Home to us then of course was Cairo. That was our base. So we went to Naples and waited a few days in Naples. That was a sad sight to see. Most of the Italians there were starving, and particularly outside the billets where we had women breast feeding their children you know as obviously to, it was a show of give us some, give us some food whatsoever. Which was pathetic to see. It really was sad. So we did. We gave them what we could in the way of food, chocolate bars and stuff like that. Cigarettes. Anything they would treasure because they had nothing. All the industries and everything had been ruined with the fighting in Italy and they really, the only thing they had was their vino which was a vermouth I think. But even then I think that was, that was, had been tampered with and had stuff added to it to improve its quantity and we were coming out in all sorts of sores and what have you and so, but it was a sorry sight to see. We waited there for a while and then again we were flown back to Cairo by DC3, and we didn’t [pause] Yes. We went to Cairo but then I was posted to a permanent, which was then a peacetime RAF station at Alexandria. And by then I’d been commissioned. On my latter weeks on the squadron I’d been commissioned. And when they have a mess do in, in the officer’s mess in an RAF squadron it’s the duty of the sprog officer as we called them, the junior officer, to toast the king. And I was given my job. I was a brand new officer. I was as nervous as bloody hell. And that’s when you have to, you know pass the port if I remember rightly from right to left. Pass the port to the table and then the sprog officer stands up and says, ‘Gentlemen, I give you the toast. The King.’ And that was quite an experience. Then I was posted to a telecommunications unit because I’d had some experience in my early youth in telecommunications and it was there that I, we had a lot of WAAFs there at the time and that’s where I met my first wife. Patricia. And she was from American parentage and born and bred in Kenya. And we started going out together and funnily enough it was strange when you look back on it but understandable to a degree. When, when the chaps were out in Cairo just enjoying themselves for the evening out and that sort of thing a lot of the girlfriends were WAAFs quite naturally. But when you came back in to, to the, it was a big unit in Heliopolis, when you came back in there there was nowhere to say goodnight. So, what the RAF would kindly do they set up a big marquee near the guard room when you went in the entrance. There was this big marquee so when you wanted to say, say goodnight you went in to the marquee which was pitch black. No lights whatsoever so you knew there were other couples in there with you and that’s where the good night cuddles went on you know. That was quite funny. And eventually we became quite serious and I started to hear in the end a lot about East Africa. And then eventually I worked at a telecoms unit and then I did some work on [pause] a lot of the Japanese prison camps had been taken over and internment camps. So all these people were coming back from the Far East and many of them were in a sorry state. In a sorry state, having been, some of them had spent four or five years in prison camps, and they were in a dreadful state. Some of them even had their hands grafted together. They’d been caught stealing. Their hands had been skinned and been sealed together. So there was a big, it was political how these people were treated by, by the forces so they set up in a place called Adabiya which is at the base of the Suez Canal. A big Reception Centre for all these people coming back. And they had all the forces represented there and this was a big field which had hangars and everything there. So they had welfare organisations. The British Red Cross was there. I had, I was posted there as RAF liaison officer to work with the, with the British Red Cross and to represent the RAF victims coming back who were captured. And also to, I had six padres under my control as well. That was an education. We all had, we were billeted in a place called Adabiya which is just south of the Suez Canal. That was an eye opener to see all these religious leaders. And one in particular I can always remember. The Methodist, the Methodists even today probably, they preach non-alcohol. I’m not sure whether that’s true but this character was was a Methodist and he was the biggest drinker of the lot. Our pantry in these digs was full of empty bottles of liquor. They were a boozy crowd. They really were. All six padres. And I tackled this, this Methodist and I said, ‘What about this? I thought your sect, particular sect preached non-indulgence.’ He said, ‘Yeah, that’s true Harry,’ he said, ‘But while I’m here I’m away from my parish,’ he said, ‘So I’m taking advantage of it.’ And I mean it was quite amusing to work with these characters. And I had a launch at my disposal, so that I could go out with all these ships. Any ship that was available because we’d lost so many ships during the Atlantic war and the Pacific for that matter they were using any ship that was available to bring these people back. Forces and civilians. And as I say many of them were in a sorry state. Some of them particularly the men had married all sorts of creatures when they came, and they were on the loose more or less in India waiting to be shipped back and they were meeting all sorts of some of them were very unsavoury characters and [unclear] And it was, and it was sad to see so we had the job, I particularly had the job of going on board these different aircraft from Naval aircraft carriers to the Mauritania which was then a passenger liner. All sorts of ships coming in. It was good in many degrees because you went on board especially Naval ships they had good food on Naval ships. And that was the first time I came in contact with the old Jacobs biscuits again. Things we hadn’t seen during the war. But that was education. I worked a lot with the Red Cross. I got one or two commendations from the major general which I was quite proud of at the end. The work I’d done with the Red Cross. And I was given a Humber Super Snipe actually that came out from the desert. One of these abandoned sort of surplus aircraft, cars at the end of the war. I had one of these at my disposal so I used to run around a lot of people. And then you brought these people ashore off the, off the boats and into this big area that had warehouses and you had entertainment. Mainly it was to clothe them because they were coming back in rags. It was to clothe them for the coming cold weather in Europe and the UK. So we were kitting them out with, with clothes and giving them decent meals and giving them entertainment as well at the same time. So it was quite an organisation. Mainly political. It was, you know who was going to get in government at home, so nothing was spared. Everything was, was there for the benefit, quite rightly, for the benefit of these people. And that was an interesting people. When I finished that job I was in, I took on the job of Canal welfare. I was given the job of the RAF welfare officer of the Canal Zone. Again, that was an education crossing the, we had a, I think there was a Swimming Club actually on the Canal itself and you had to be very careful there with ships coming down. I can remember one, one day swimming in this place. Trying to swim across the Canal. It was only about, I believe ninety nine yards wide and three or four of us were out swimming in the Canal one day when a tanker, a tanker came down and it was loaded and being loaded it was heavy in the water and the water either side of the tanker went in towards the tanker. And as this tanker was going by we found ourselves being drawn towards the tanker swimming like hell. No matter how hard you were swimming you weren’t moving. You were standing still. But if you swam like hell because in fear of being drawn in to, in to the ships. So odd little experiences like that along the, along the Canal Zone going to, from there to Cairo one day across the desert which was about a hundred miles. And I had this lovely Humber which was a powerful station wagon then, and a very narrow tarmac road across the desert. I’m going across this road like hell and it was used by oil tankers a lot as well and I hit an oil patch and I did then what we, what we used to call a ground loop. My car started spinning around, shot off the road in to the sand and as soon as it hit the sand of course it did stop but I was thrown straight out of the cab, into the sand. That was quite an experience going there. But I did that trip often between the Suez and Cairo until eventually I was shipped home. When I eventually again because they were short of transport it took a long time. It was 1946 by the time that I was given transport and that only took us as far as Marseilles, south of France and then we went by train across France and, and that was an experience, crossing from Calais to Dover. To see those white cliffs again and see the UK after I’d been away four years then I suppose and that was a lovely sight to see the white cliffs of Dover again. And then later on I was demobbed and was settling back with my parents in Liverpool when Patricia in the WAAFs followed me to the UK and I met her in Merseyside and she stayed with us for a while and then we got married. And that was in 19 — we were married in 1947 I think it was. And it was a little while after that she wanted to visit her parents again so we went out. I’d never met the family, so we went out and in those days because there was still a shortage of shipping it was very very difficult. So you had to, to get a ship to Mombasa. You had to sign on that you would agree to carry what they called passenger transport which were virtually like troop ships. Troop ships. You didn’t have the luxury of a cabin to yourself so men and women, married or not were all divided. So the men slept together, women slept together, and then you came together at mealtimes which was quite an experience. But to go back through the Med again it was, you know renewing old territories. Down the Suez Canal again. Down the Red Sea and along the Indian ocean and back to the port of Mombasa which I had come in to I think four years or whatever it was previous to that and wondered what was ashore. This time I was going to find out what was ashore, and eventually we disembarked there. It was a pretty eventful trip out there. It was, it was a bit rough still because it was only shortly after the war. Everything was still shortage. Rationing. Accommodation as I said. We were separated. But eventually we arrived at Mombasa, went ashore and that was an experience then when I first joined the East African Railways to go up to Nairobi. That was an education. The first time I’d been on an African train, a Colonial train as it was in those days where you had sleeping accommodation and we had, they had for couples they had what they called [coupes] which was a cabin for two which you converted your seat in to a bunk bed because it was a long trip up to Nairobi so you hired bedding, and there you had a little toilet and shower room off your cabin. And that was an experience travelling across the bush into Africa, I hadn’t seen it before and travelling through the bush country of Africa gradually going up to Nairobi which is then at an altitude of five and a half thousand feet which was quite something. Altitude up to, other than flying we’d not been used to living at. So that took you quite a while to acclimatise. But then after, I think we were about ten hours, I think on board the train stopping various places. Every time we stopped of course we had the locals coming along with whatever produce they had. So they’re trying to sell you their produce through the open windows of the train and that was really experience Africa truly. East Africa. Wildest Africa if you like. Apart from the civilised part of South Africa which I’d trained in seeing that for the first time quite an education. Seeing the wildlife, wild animals from the train which you could see elephants and all those sort of things. Zebra all wandering around the bush. Quite an education. Until eventually arrived in Nairobi and I was a bit nervous because I was meeting the family for the first time. They were all there. My mother in law, her sister in law, brother in law, and one or two of the cousins. And the trains in there, the East African Trains the doors opened inwards, whereas here on British trains the doors opened outwards. So when we arrived there we got the window down, there’s the family all standing on the platform waiting to see what this new son in law was going to be like and I’m trying to open the door, pushing out and it won’t go and I’m kicking it like mad, you know. And then suddenly, I think it must have been my mother in law she reached forward and opened the door. Immediately I’m down to size straightaway. I felt a right clown having tried to kick this door open and it opened the wrong way. So that was, that was my experience of meeting my in-laws. We then went to the famous New Stanley Hotel in Nairobi which in itself was quite a place in those Colonial days. It was a very well-known hotel. It had a long bar which then was the, reckoned to be the longest bar in the world, and, but it was also a meeting place for people from all the world. Especially people coming out then to see East Africa because East Africa was then opening up many ways. It was developing after the war. Lots of things were going on and the hunting profession was coming in. They were making films and so all and everybody would all congregate at this New Stanley hotel. So that’s where I spent my first couple of nights there. And that was quite an education because on the outside, on the pavement the first, again the first time we had experienced pavement sort of dining. They had a place, it was christened the Thorn Tree because there was one. One tree in the, in the pavement. Big patio style pavement out at the front of the hotel and that’s where everybody sat. If you ever wanted to meet anybody in Nairobi that’s where you met. And now the period that I was there, not so much in the early stages, later on back in Nairobi I met many film stars in those days because they were doing lots of films then and I met people like William Holden, Deborah Kerr, Sydney Poitier, one or two British stars. Oh dear. One chap born in, born in, in Ditchling down the road here. But it was interesting meeting lots of those people. Later on of course when I went in to the safari business, I worked for Bill Holden who then was part owner of a safari club called the Mount Kenya Safari Club and he was quite a character to work for. But it was an adventure to me. And then a couple of days there and I’d got into, the family had got me out to Tanzania as they were living in Tanzania then because they had a ferry business there on Lake Victoria. And it was a ferry across the five mile mouth of the Mara River which transported passengers and vehicles from the south side to Tanzania to the north side which was a five mile crossing and eventually on the road to Kenya and so I had a work permit to run this ferry. I’d never been, I’d never operated a ferry in my life before. My sailing knowledge was nil but I learned very quickly and that was the very first time when we flew from Nairobi. Flew in a DH Rapide, a De Havilland Rapide and that was quite a, that was about a three hour flight. That was very interesting, and our flight didn’t know it at the time but we crossed over what is now known as the Serengeti National Reserve where the great migration takes place. Nothing was known about the migration in those days. A few scientists knew about it but my first experience of seeing that was seeing a line of buffalo that must have stretched from where we were seeing up in the air every, every bit of close on a hundred miles and something like a hundred yards to a quarter of a mile wide. Quite a sight to see. Never realised what I was witnessing but that was my first sight of the famous Mara migration which has often been on television ever since. And that was my first experience of wildlife. But then I was given command of this ferry crossing which we later, as a family bought, a lot of war surplus was going then and the ferry was being operated by an American motor launch dual multi-hulled motor launch called the Grey Goose and that used to tow pontoons. So it was on the pontoons that we carried these people and vehicles and then this war surplus auction came up in Mombasa and one of them was a Canadian built landing craft and it was a twenty five ton landing craft. So my mother in law, she was a widow at the time she put in a bid for this and her bid which was two hundred and fifty pounds which was a fair amount of money in those days. Nowadays nothing. We got this twenty five ton landing craft that had never been used, still in its packing cases, all packing case plus two beautiful big Gray Marine engines which in themselves were quite worth a fortune. And we got these in I think the total consignment was about seventeen cases which we had a thousand miles to ship to where we were on the shores of Lake Victoria. And we eventually, we shipped it together and started building it together. We had no facilities whatsoever. The only thing we did have, my mother in law then she was a widow and she had a boyfriend who was ex-REME, British Army REME and he’d got his, taken his demobilisation out in Kenya, in East Africa and he set up a business out there. A garage because he was a REME engineer. So he was very useful. So we got together and, and contrived, we built ourselves a rampway. We managed to get our hands on some old railway sleeper lines, some old sleepers, and we built ourselves a ramp so that we could launch this thing. We started to build it and everybody said this thing’s, as I say its twenty five ton and they said the local Europeans, about a hundred Europeans in this place, a doctor, a few hospital staff, district commissioner, my parents, my wife’s family only a handful of Europeans there they all said, ‘You’ll never get this thing launched.’ We did. We built it. We pushed it. We hired three hundred convicts from a local prison and we pushed this thing into the water and I operated that for a whole year and that was quite an experience. And also my first experience of hippopotamus which used to be roaming the garden at night because our house and plot was right down to the lakeshore. So we used to get those wandering around the garden at night. You had to be very careful. And during the day you always had to watch for crocodiles swimming as well, because just along the side my mother in law’s plot of land was a pathway down to the water where the local native women used to go and do their washing. That was of course a magnet for the crocodiles. The crocodiles were often lying off shore. We had one or two episodes with those over the period I was there, but on the whole it was quite, it was my experience of East Africa. I used to go with my brother in law who was then a teenager still at school. His family had been in the hunting profession. His father and his uncles, father and grandfather had all been professional hunters in those days which was the thing if you wanted a guide to take you around the country you hired one of these people. They were not only, many people think afterwards that a professional hunter was a killer of wildlife. He wasn’t. In a way he was an honorary warden so he was a conversationist. Yes, his job would be to guide people out into the country particularly Americans used to come wanting to hunt for trophies but he himself did very little shooting. He would back up his client if his client got in to danger at any time but he was a very knowledgeable man. He knew the country, he knew the language, knew the natives, knew the wildlife which was very important. So, I found myself being introduced in to this atmosphere and that’s when I did my first big game hunting which was exciting but eventually it didn’t appeal to me at all. I went over to eventually after a lot of experience I became a professional guide but mostly photographic. I carried a rifle many times, yes. But always and especially running the camp that I pointed out to you early on. I ran that for three years taking people out on photographic safaris, and again being fortunate enough to meet all sorts of people and it was my first contact with royalty. With Prince Michael and his mother Princess Marina. But that’s another story.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Harry Hacker
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Denise Boneham
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AHackerHA170819
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Pending review
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01:42:46 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Hacker first came into contact with aeroplanes at the age of sixteen whilst working as an apprentice for Rootes Motor Group who were making Wellington aircraft. He was a member of the Home Guard and after applying to join the RAF went for basic training in London. He was however selected to become a bomb aimer and was posted to South Africa for training. He was posted to Palestine via Cairo where he joined his crew and began training on Wellingtons. After completing training he and his crew were posted to Italy and joined 40 Squadron attached to the American 15th Airforce. His first operation was to bomb the docks at Marseilles and his second to bomb Romanian oilfields. When he had completed his tour of operations he became a liaison with the Red Cross helping with the repatriation of prisoners from the Japanese camps.
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
France
Great Britain
Italy
Kenya
Romania
South Africa
North Africa
Egypt--Cairo
Egypt--Suez Canal
England--London
France--Marseille
Kenya--Mombasa
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
40 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Nissen hut
Red Cross
searchlight
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/898/11138/AIsherwoodRC160401.1.mp3
821a61ef834a090f75a92e12292c399d
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Isherwood, Raymond
Raymond Charles Isherwood
R C Isherwood
Description
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An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Raymond Isherwood (b. 1923, 1805405, 164931, Royal Air Force). He served as a navigator in Transport Command.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Isherwood, RC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Ray Isherwood. The interview is taking place in Mr Isherwood’s house in Laceby on the 1st of April 2016. Could you tell me a bit about you early life?
RI: Oh. I grew up way down south in Watford. My father although he was a northerner had moved down there soon after the First War because things got so bad up north and he found a job. And so I grew up, as I say in Watford. Watford Grammar School. And eventually in the Grammar School they formed a branch of the Air Training Corps. I had been interested in aircraft as long as I can remember and we had been to see the Hendon Air Displays which weren’t far away. Not in the grounds I should say. We could park, my father could park at a nearby layby and we climbed up the hill and could see all that was going on in the airfield below us and that encouraged my interest in aircraft. As school formed a branch of the Air Training Corps when that was formed before the war sometime and I joined that and went along to the parades and lectures. They hosted local people who had any connexion with the Air Force to give talks on their experiences. And then eventually I got a job in a government laboratory which turned out to be a Reserved Occupation which meant that you couldn't be called up. The only exception being for aircrew so I escaped from that and was called up eventually. Went through all the rigmarole of initial training on the South Coast usually in hotels which were commandeered for accommodation. And then I went across to Canada to finish my aircrew training and finished up there a fully fledged pilot officer navigator. I came back to this country and we were crewed up. This, appreciate this was in Transport Command so I was crewed up with, the theory was that the, that all the pilots with assemble and pick up their navigators randomly but in point of fact the pilots had access to your records so each pilot could perhaps pick up one that he thought was suitable. Anyway, I was collared by a pilot who had many many hours already flying and so we got on very well together. I went to Transport Command and we were transported all over the place. Our longest trip was right out to Cairo. To Cairo and beyond to Calcutta which was quite a long trip. Which reminds me that on the way back from Calcutta of course we had to travel by passenger transport and I flew in a Sunderland for a long way, a Flying Boat and it really was the first time I had flown in one and it really was like a Flying Boat which was sort of porpoising along and it was the nearest I've ever felt to being air sick. Anyway, I managed to survive. Of course, it's a bit different when you are just a passenger as opposed to when you’re part of the crew itself. Anyway, it got me back to this country and carried on. But the crew was trans, was posted out to West Africa. West Africa Communications Squadron of all things. It was a sort of a relic of the time when aircraft were ferried across the Atlantic from America and then across to Africa to the South of, from [Kurna?] to, no [Kurna?] to the southern end of the Nile. Up the Nile to Cairo. Anyway, I did a lot, a lot of that before eventually being posted back to this country and I can't really remember much else about it [laughs] Oh yes. We flew, ferried planes as I say ferried the planes as they say from the tip of Devon. Took off across the Bay of Biscay to North Africa. And this went on for some time and eventually the war was finished. We didn't have to go to Japan after all and so I was demobbed and back to civvy duty when I got married and resumed my job. First in the government laboratory where I'd left and so we sort of pottered on and on. Fortunately, I have one beautiful daughter who is still with me. Still looks after me and there we are. I don't know that I can add very much more to that [laughs]
AH: Why did you go to Canada for training?
RI: Oh, well there was such, there was a large number of cadets requiring training in the air either as pilots or navigators. And there wasn't sufficient aerodrome space in this country and anyway it would have been quite dangerous having sort of untrained, partially trained pilots and aircraft flying about this country which was so near to Messerschmitts nipping across the Channel to pop them down. So they formed what was called the Empire Air Training Scheme. Which made use of the fast areas in the empire. Some went to Rhodesia, South Africa and I went to Canada. The other side of Winnipeg in the [laughs] in the Prairies. So it was an experience anyway. But as I say there was plenty of safe room and as a navigator I was flown by bush pilots. Bush pilots who could fly with their eyes shut. Anyway, but that went on. We went on and I was qualified then and came back to this country. I was crewed up with a pilot who had a lot of experience flying so we got on very well together actually until eventually the war ended and we were demobbed and went back to civvy duty. Oh, I know as I was in the Air Force I got a grant to go to London University so as I was living in Watford I thought I'd go down and attend London University as a day student. I had to travel down and back. It was a bit of a bind but anyway I did it and there was swatting up in the evenings and weekends. But all this was paid for by virtue of me being in the Air Force and then eventually I did manage to get my degree. And that was it. So back in to Civvy duty.
AH: What was your degree in?
RI: Chemistry. Chemistry and physics. So then I was back to Civvy Street and I got married, had Sarah and sort of, time just went on as normal.
AH: Did you enjoy flying?
RI: Oh, very much. Yes. Yes. I would take it up again if I could but no I enjoyed it very much indeed. I don't know quite why really but mind you I was never involved in any accidents or hazardous times and so if we’d had a crash or something it might have changed my mind but no I enjoyed it very much. And then as I say that all came to an end. Had to get back to Civvy Street and got married and eventually had Sarah who looks after me very well.
AH: What was it like going back to civilian life?
RI: Yes, it was a bit of a bind. It was a bit awkward but in one way you were, you were glad really. I mean it meant the world was over. And although I didn't do any sort of active work in the war I wasn't fighting anyone but even so it was, could have been hazardous at times. And then, yes settled back to Civvy Street. I find it extremely hard to remember what I did actually. I must have got a job and got on with it and there we are and had our usual, you know through the year. Went on holidays and as I say had Sarah. That was an event. She’s done me proud anyway. So, we just, just carried on back to Civvy Street. I don’t know that I can add any more to that really.
AH: Did you, did you choose to go into Transport Command or were you just posted?
RI: No. Just posted there. No. No. As a, as a navigator it was probably the best posting I could have had really. It wasn't a very happy experience really being a navigator in Bomber Command because as I understand it and sort of heard from some of them you know you couldn't do anything. You were just doing your job as navigator and a lot of it you had a lot more, not such a great support from the ground in the way of beacons and all the up to date facilities that weren’t available to people outside. But even so really I was jolly lucky. I might well have been posted to Bomber Command and that may well have been the end of me as it was for a lot of other folk. But anyway, we seem to have won the war [laughs] so they say. And here we are today. But —
AH: What did you do when you were in West Africa?
RI: I find it very difficult to remember. I have to [pause] oh we, yes, we just, we just formed a transport squadron to ferry people about. They were all civilians of course. A considerable civilian population. European civilians besides the natives, I mean who administered the country and it was, before the war it was a very civvy job doing that because you were white men among all the natives and you know your command was law and you just ran the thing like [pause] just off the [unclear]. I know one place, we had to stop in places overnight sometimes the ritual was on getting up you had a large glass of gin [laughs] you know, before you had your bacon and egg. Just these colonial types. I mean they were different. Grew up before the war and they were a different breed really but there we are we anyway got through that lot and got demobbed, came out, came home. As I’d been in the Air Force I got a grant to go to London University. I lived down in Watford so I used to travel down to Kings College, London University, you know, day by day as a day student and got my degree in chemistry. It was a struggle at times. But having been away from sort of academic learning you have to get back to it. Anyway, whether they had pity on me and gave me a degree I don't know. But I got one in the end. So, you know, I find it very difficult to recall what happened really after that. I would have to look up diaries and to be reminded and such like but anyway we had a happily married life. Produced Sarah which was a great boon. That was a great boon. But eventually poor Thelma died. She as I say she went to sleep on a Sunday night, Monday night, Tuesday night and Wednesday night and she was gone. I don't know whether she died of anything in particular but anyway that was some time ago now. I find it difficult to think. We've got this lovely bungalow. It’s all mine. No [laughs] no mortgage. And the support of Sarah and people around about her very friendly as well. So I could do a lot worse. A lot worse.
AH: Did you have any siblings?
RI: Any what?
AH: Siblings.
RI: Other children?
AH: Any brothers or sisters?
RI: No. Me? Oh me. Oh gracious. Did I? Yes. I had, I had an elder brother Vincent. That's right. I can't remember really. Yes. He, he went into the Air Force. He went into the ground staff. He worked for the GPO, General Post Office before the war. He was a bit older. He was older than me and when he went into the Air Force he went into the Telecommunications branch but funnily enough he was posted down to Australia. Why, I don't know. But I didn’t see much of him really. Poor chap. Eventually he died so I'm, I'm the one left of that branch. I think I’ve got more cousins up north still. Every now and then I think I must go and try to get in touch with them but I sort of never actually get around to it. But there we are.
AH: Were your parents in the First War?
RI: Not, not actively. Oh, no. My father in fact would have been what is called now a Reserved Occupation. He was an engineer in Coberley Water Company keeping the pumps going and that sort of thing. I'm not quite sure how old he would have been. It’s going back a long way. So —
[pause]
AH: What planes were you in?
RI: On what?
AH: What planes?
RI: Planes. Oh, I have a job to remember. I think when we were training we were in planes like Ansons. Of course, I wasn't the pilot. They had to be planes which had accommodation for the, for the navigator. Planes like Avro Ansons. And then eventually I was flying with Dakotas. The old favourites. I think the Americans must have churned them out by the millions but yes so, so I was very lucky. I had a pilot I already had hundreds of hours in Training Command and we, as I say flew in Dakota's which were probably the most reliable, or certainly one of the most reliable planes at that time. There are probably still some running somewhere. So —
AH: And you were in Wellingtons as well.
RI: Yes. Yes. That was in Canada. But never, I never went on active duty or anything. I never dropped bombs on anyone. It was, it was only [pause] only through fortunate posting really [pause] because the casualty rate was fairly high actually amongst aircrew.
[pause]
AH: Do you remember VE Day?
RI: Pardon?
AH: Do you remember VE Day?
RI: Oh. I can't remember VE Day very much but I can remember VJ day because we were in Africa at the time and we had parades and things and I think I’ve got some pictures. I think that was VE Day but —
[pause]
AH: How did you feel on VJ day?
RI: Oh, very relieved. I thought with VE Day passing we should all be shipped out to Japan you see. But of course, they dropped the bomb on them didn't they and that finished it. So from that point of view I was very relieved.
[pause]
AH: What's the steam engine?
RI: Oh yes. I don't really know. Must be out in West Africa somewhere [laughs] I’m not [pause] No. I don't really know. It just attracted me so I took a picture of it. Funny have some of these have stayed the same and others have deteriorated haven't they? He was the, in effect the batman. We had a servant a line so the one between four or five of us and he was the one [pause] Oh dear. It seems a long time ago now. Let’s hope it never comes back again too.
AH: What did you think of Bomber Command? I know you weren't in it but —
RI: Oh yes. No. Well, at the time I was all in favour of it. I mean you were getting at the enemy the only way they could because they weren’t, until the time we actually invaded it was the only offence we had. So just rather horrible in retrospect the damage done to, mainly to civilians of course but I’m afraid it was all part and parcel, wasn't it? I think it’s, I think was it Churchill who said they, they started it and they reaped the whirlwind. I think Hitler thought we would be a pushover and get it all over with within a few weeks but, of course it didn't work out that way.
AH: And you saw the Jarrow March.
RI: Yes. Yes. Those were the days. It’s terrible conditions we were to live in. I mean, no work I don’t think there was any old age pension in those days. You know. A pension. Just had to live as best they could. So they all got together up in Jarrow up north and right down to, in to London. It was quite, it wasn't just a few men. It was several hundred marching along. Of course, a couple a lot of them had been in the war of course who were used to that sort of thing but terrible times really.
AH: What did they look like?
RI: Oh, they were just ordinary chaps you know talking walking about in civilian clothing. You know, I mean but yes I think they thought were doing something anyway. They were so helpless really with conditions as they were. They were sort of trapped in the, in the circumstances. But anyway whether it did any good or not I'm not sure but as I say it had an effect on me all right.
AH: What did you think when you saw it?
RI: Oh, very very sad. Very sad. Well, the school was turned out on to the footpath to watch them go by. It was very sad. But there we are. Got over it I suppose. Time went by. [pause] I keep getting lost I think.
Other: Yes [laughs]
AH: You liked, you liked the Air Force before you joined it. You liked building models.
RI: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, I was, as long as I can remember I was building 1:72nd scale models. Little tiny things and made some flying models out balsa wood and wrapped in tissue and glorified elastic bands which you were, never had. And I did this in Carpenter's Park. I don’t remember any, you probably don't remember that. Nearby in this local park and I’d switched it off and it went sailing across the road into someone’s garden. So I had the experience of knocking on the door and saying, ‘Please can I get my aeroplane from your garden?’ Just thought nothing of it at the time but it must, rather peculiar really. But, yes I’ve been interested in aircraft for as long as I can remember. I suppose it was being near Hendon to do with it. Father being engineer was on the practical side of things as well. So of course, aeroplanes were the new thing when I grew up. It’s a funny life, isn't it?
AH: Did you like the RAF?
RI: Very much, yes. Yes. I did. Yes, I think I [pause] well yes, it’s a, it was a different thing though after the war. It was a different attitude, you know as against life outside sort of thing. You were much more confined and constricted and very much a sort of officer class if you were a flight lieutenant. But [pause] which didn’t suit me. It didn’t. At all. Anyway, no, I was glad to get back to civvy life and married life and all that entailed really.
AH: How did you meet your wife?
RI: Good question.
Other: Was it at work? The building, what was it called? The Building Research Station.
RI: Research.
Other: Building Research.
RI: Yes.
Other: BRS.
RI: Building Research Station. Yes. That’s where I worked for some time. I must have, I must have met her at work I suppose. Yes. This was during the war and I think one of the other chaps and I were leaving and he had this mad idea arrangement. He arranged a dinner in London at one of the posh hotels. So we had to get on the train and go and you were sort of all dressed up and Thelma was one of the party I think. We all trooped down to London and of course we missed the last train back [laughs] I don't know. I don’t, I can’t really remember what we did. We must have got back eventually but [pause] A funny idea. It's funny how these things come back to you isn't it?
Other: Yes.
RI: Yes. It’s sort of buried in the recesses of your brain somewhere.
Other: Yeah [pause] Did you ride bikes to the works? To work.
RI: Yes.
Other: You and mum.
RI: Yeah. Yes, it was bicycles all the time. Yeah. Did we have a car? I can’t, did father have a car? I don’t think he did.
Other: Can you remember when you went on holiday? Did you go on holidays with your mum and dad?
RI: Yes. I must have done.
Other: Did you have a car?
RI: I think, I think we just went by train you know.
Other: Yeah. Yeah. Because he worked, he lived where he worked. Didn’t he?
RI: That’s right. Yes.
Other: So —
RI: Yes, we worked, we lived in the works cottage. The Cottage, Coberley Water Company. That was my address.
Other: So he wouldn't need a car would he?
RI: No.
Other: No. And I don’t think gran drove did —
RI: No.
Other: Well, in those days.
RI: No. I think he had. He had a car.
Other: Oh. Did he?
RI: Yes. Yes.
Other: Oh.
RI: And it was handy for him in that he could have all the maintenance done on company site.
Other: Oh right.
RI: You see. By friends who were in the trade and that sort of thing. I think there are some photographs up there.
Other: They’d be in a different album I think.
RI: Yes.
AH: What was it like being in London during the war?
RI: I don’t know that I was in London a lot.
Other: I, probably mum would have known more wouldn’t she?
RI: Yes.
Other: That side of it. I think you were out of the way weren’t you?
RI: I was out of the way in the forces.
Other: Yes. You didn’t have anything, like the rationing didn’t really affect you, did it?
RI: No.
Other: The food was ok where you —
RI: That’s right. Yes. Yes. Oh dear.
Other: They fed the troops alright. Yeah. And your mum didn’t take any children in or anything like that? I don’t know Watford, whether Watford was bombed. I don’t know.
RI: I don’t think so. There might have been some. I think the zeppelins flew over once or twice.
Other: Oh right. [pause] But London would have been bombed.
RI: Oh yes.
Other: A lot, wasn’t it?
RI: Yes. Yes. You could see the flashes.
Other: Oh.
RI: From a nearby hill you could look over. Right over to, to London and you could see the flashes going off.
Other: Did you have an air raid shelter? Or —
RI: I think so. I think so. I don’t think we ever actually used it, you know. It was one of these Anderson things in the garden.
Other: Oh right. Yes.
RI: Oh dear. It’s ancient history, isn’t it?
Other: Because when did you sign up then? How old were you? I mean were you —
RI: Eighteen.
Other: Eighteen.
RI: Something like that. ’23. ’33. ’41.
Other: So, the war had been going on for two years then.
RI: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes.
Other: Oh. Had you been at school then dad? Were you still at school?
RI: No. I had this job, didn’t I?
Other: Did you?
RI: I think so. Yes.
Other: Oh. What doing then? Oh, at this BRS. Yeah.
RI: Building Research Station.
Other: Oh, right. Yeah. So you would have been there two years when there was bombing then.
RI: Yes. Yes. That’s true.
Other: Yeah. And rationing.
RI: I’m afraid that was someone else’s trouble [laughs]
Other: Yes.
Other: I think I was more concerned with the rationing of chocolate and such like.
Other: Yes [laughs] You couldn’t get the sweets quite the same. Yeah.
[pause]
RI: Oh dear. It all seems like ancient history, doesn't it? Now.
Other: Yeah. Would, where grandad worked would it be a target or not particularly? A water company.
RI: Not really.
Other: No.
RI: I don't think they came out as far as Watford anyway. The bombing was more in Central London.
Other: Oh right. Yeah. Of course, you lived a long time, I know it was after the war but near Bletchley, didn’t you? Where the [pause] at Bletchley where the, I can’t remember what it was called.
AH: The Enigma.
Other: Yeah. The Enigma.
RI: Yes.
Other: Well, I suppose it’s only now really it’s coming out.
RI: That’s right. Yes.
Other: All about it isn’t it?
RI: Didn’t know anything about it.
Other: No. No.
RI: No. I’d like to go there sometime. But it’s a, it’s a tourist attraction now, isn’t it?
Other: Films have been made about it.
RI: Yes. That’s right. Yes.
Other: Yeah. Yes. I don’t know whether they used it after the war, you know. Carried on.
RI: Might have carried on a bit I suppose.
Other: Yeah.
RI: Not for much.
AH: And you went to the Hendon Air Displays in the ‘30s.
RI: Oh yes. Yes. Yes, it was the —
Other: I think. Your father was quite interested as well, wasn’t he?
RI: Yes. Yes. He was quite interested more perhaps in the engineering side of it. As I say he couldn’t afford actually to go into the aerodrome itself so there was a convenient by-road where you could park the car down there and walk up the hill and look over. Look over Hendon.
Other: See the —
RI: See all the flying going on.
Other: Yeah. The early aeroplanes.
RI: Yes. The old biplanes and things and they had simulated bombing attacks. They had sort of rough huts put up in the middle of the airfield and these, the aircraft would fly over. I’m pretty sure they had the bombs inside them.
Other: Do you think?
RI: They’d got the bombs inside the hut so at the appropriate moment set them off. I’m sure they would have had a hut.
Other: It would have been a bit close [laughs]
RI: Yes.
Other: In case they dropped them at the wrong place.
RI: That’s right. Exactly. Yes. But funny days [pause] No. They rather frown on displays now, don’t they?
Other: Well, they’ve had a couple of accidents haven’t they?
RI: They have had accidents. Yes.
Other: Yes. They get so complicated don’t they?
RI: Yes.
Other: The area aerobatics.
RI: Right.
AH: Thank you.
RI: I think we’ve —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Raymond Isherwood
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-01
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AIsherwoodRC160401
Format
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00:45:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Raymond Isherwood grew up in Watford and when at the grammar school he joined the Air Training Corps. His first job was at a government laboratory, which was a reserved occupation except for air crew. As he had always been interested in aircraft he decided to train with the Royal Air Force. He was sent to Canada and, on completing his training, came back to this country and worked with Transport Command. The Royal Air Force paid for Raymond to attend London University, where he gained a degree in chemistry and physics. He had postings to Cairo, Calcutta and West Africa. He was never on active duty but flew in Dakotas and Wellingtons. When Raymond was demobbed he returned to laboratory work, met his wife and had a daughter.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
India--Kolkata
India
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Africa
Canada
North Africa
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1945-05-08
Conforms To
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Pending review
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aircrew
C-47
navigator
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/924/11167/ALeithJM170112.1.mp3
58862b6cf0fd639127eb573cee163a3e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leith, James McKenzie
J M Leith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer James Leith (b. 1924 186914 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 429, 624 and 148 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by James Leith and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Leith, JM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Flying Officer James McKenzie Leith at 2.30 on Thursday 12th of January 2017 at in his home in Fulwood, near Preston, Lancashire. So, Jim, if that’s alright to call you Jim, just for the record please would you confirm your date of birth and where you were born please.
JML: 21 5 ‘24. Bathville, Bathgate.
BW: And that’s near —
JML: Scotland.
BW: Glasgow, Scotland.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Yeah. What was your family life like? You had mother and father at home. Did you have brothers and sisters?
JML: Yeah. Two brothers.
BW: And were they —
JML: And two sisters.
BW: And were you the youngest or were you right in the middle or the eldest?
JML: Middle. Yeah.
BW: And what was your home life like in Glasgow or Bathvale? Was it a nice little village, you’d say?
JML: Yeah. A very good village because my grandfather was the local policeman.
BW: And where did you go to school?
JML: Bathgate.
BW: And did you stay in Bathgate throughout your school years?
JML: Yeah.
BW: And —
JML: I left school at fourteen.
BW: At the standard age.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And what did you then go on to do?
JML: I went working at the local swimming pool. Learning the people on a course of course first to get trained. Then learn people how to swim.
BW: And so you —
JML: Came it came in very handy later on I can assure you.
BW: So you were a swimming instructor in that respect.
JML: Yeah. Well, I was training to be a swimming instructor. Yeah.
BW: Ok. And how long were you doing that for?
JML: Probably two years. Yeah.
BW: And after that did you remain at the swimming pool or did you go on to another job? Did you take a job elsewhere?
JML: I went in the forces. Into the forces after. From being there. The swimming, the trainee swimming instructor.
BW: So you’d have been only sixteen.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And did you join the RAF first or was, did you join another branch?
JML: Well, I was in the Air Training Corps etcetera. Yeah. Stayed with them for, I don’t know. Quite, quite some time. The ATC as it was called.
BW: And were you always interested in joining the RAF then?
JML: Oh yes.
BW: As a young boy.
JML: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: What attracted you to it?
JML: I don’t know. I just, I just liked it. My brother was in the army. My elder brother. He was in the army. And my sister who was older than me as well, only just, was a trainee nurse. So next in the, on the list was Jamie. And I, and as I say I went the ATC and I was quite happy we got into the RAF when the time came. Yeah.
BW: And what specifically did you intend to do in the RAF? Were you initially trying to be a pilot or or —
JML: No.
BW: In the [unclear] or something.
JML: I was just going to be in the RAF and leave it to them. Definitely.
BW: And so you joined before war actually broke out.
JML: I went in the —
BW: Because you were only [pause] Or was it just as war had started? It was ’24, and you were sixteen. Yes. So it would be 1940, wouldn’t it? So war would have started while you were —
JML: Oh yeah.
BW: Just joining up.
JML: Definitely. Yeah.
BW: So, was the, was the onset of war something that compelled you to volunteer more than the interest or was it just everything came together?
JML: Yeah. In general, I joined the ATC. The Air Training Corps. I joined that and eventually got in to the RAF.
BW: And where did you sign on? In Glasgow?
JML: Edinburgh.
BW: Edinburgh.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And what happened from there? Where did they send you for training? Do you recall?
JML: London, funnily enough. From one capital to the other. London.
BW: Do you know whereabouts at all? Or not?
JML: No. Don’t ask me that. No.
BW: Ok.
JML: No.
BW: And so you, did you apply at that time to be aircrew or did you once in the Air Force stick at a ground trade or as a mechanic or something or did you want to go as aircrew?
JML: Aircrew.
BW: From the start.
JML: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Do you recall where you did your aircrew training? Your gunnery training.
JML: Yes. Let me see now. That was under [unclear] Stormy Down, Cardiff.
BW: Stormy Down.
JML: Yeah. Stormy Down.
BW: Ok. Yeah.
JML: Have you heard of that one?
BW: Yeah.
JML: Yeah. Stormy Down. Yeah.
BW: And as an air gunner what aspects of your training can you, can you recall that you had to do?
JML: Well, being in the aircrew and training at Stormy Down I just automatically seemed to slot in and become an air gunner. And we used to fly out over the Bristol Channel towing, towing a drogue behind an aircraft and the air gunner flying in Whitleys.
BW: Whitleys.
JML: A Whitley. I think it was a Whitley if I remember rightly. And the rear gunner there shooting at a drogue as it went along to try and pass the test that your eyesight was good etcetera and you could see alright. Yeah. That more or less was it, I think. Probably there about, I would think at least two months. Maybe even more. Training. Yeah.
BW: And did you do any ground training with the guns at all?
JML: Very little. Very little during the period when we were at Stormy Down because it was all mostly in the air. Firing from the ground came later somewhere else but I’m trying to think where it was but I can’t think at the moment. On a beach somewhere. Somewhere in Yorkshire. Probably at Bridlington.
BW: So from Stormy Down you moved up to Bridlington to do some further gunnery training.
JML: Air gun training, yeah. Definitely.
BW: Ok. And then Dalton and Lyneham —
JML: That’s right.
BW: I believe.
JML: Yeah. That’s, that’s further training there. We went on to aircraft.
BW: And at this stage did you crew up with the guys that you were going to —
JML: No.
BW: Follow through with training?
JML: We just went with anybody.
BW: Ok.
JML: Because most of them were training as well. Yeah.
BW: And from your training as a gunner which seems to have finished at Lyneham do you recall what happened after that? Did you go to a Conversion Unit?
JML: Where did I go from Lyneham? [pause] Yeah. Yeah. We moved on to —where did I move on to? A Conversion Unit. Bloody hell.
BW: That’s alright. If it’s, if it’s escaped your memory don’t worry. But I’m just curious if you met your first crew at the Conversion Unit or whether you met them when you got to your squadron.
JML: That was it. It was a right mixture at the time [pause] Yeah. We crewed up at, yeah. We more or less became a crew eventually at the Conversion Unit.
BW: And can you recall who your fellow crewmates were?
JML: Yes. The first original ones were, there were the three Canadians. The pilot, flight sergeant [pause] now then. Charlie Bois. C H A R L I E B O I S. I think that was how you spelt it.
BW: Ok.
JML: Charlie Bois. And the navigator was Jim Cameron.
BW: Jim.
JML: Jim.
BW: Yeah.
JML: Cameron.
BW: Cameron. Ok.
JML: Canadian. The bomb aimer was Joe Senecal. S E N E C A L. Now then.
[pause]
BW: You have a wireless operator and a couple of gunners in there.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Of which one, one is you.
JML: I’m trying to think of the [pause] I think what was he called? I’m thinking about the flight engineer [pause] Well, I think it was George Messenger. Because he was with us a long time so George was probably there then.
BW: Ok.
JML: Mickey Neville, wireless operator.
BW: Davy Lambert, gunner, along with me. That should be seven, I think.
JML: Yeah. That’s right.
BW: Yeah.
JML: So Davy would be the mid-upper.
BW: That’s him. Yeah.
JML: And where were you based with 429? Do you recall?
BW: Yeah. This is all in my head and it’s just all rumbled up. I’ll get it. I’ll get it in a minute.
[pause]
JML: It’s a bugger, isn’t it?
BW: Do you think it was in Yorkshire?
JML: Oh aye. I never moved until I went abroad. I was there all the time.
BW: There were a couple of bases. One at East Moor and the other at Leeming.
JML: Leeming. That came up. That. Leeming. Leeming Bar it was called in them days.
BW: And what was your accommodation like there? Your barracks.
JML: Oh good. Yeah. More or less nissen huts. Yeah.
BW: And what were your arrangements? Were you all in there as a crew or were you all in there as gunners?
JML: Different. Different. Yeah. The crew, the crews were in the mess together. Not there, not in Bomber Command where I was, no. It was just a mixture.
BW: And did you socialise together as a crew?
JML: Oh, just so so because as I say we were, this was a Canadian squadron so they more or less, they more or less kept together and the RAF lads like myself and Mickey Neville and that. So, we did. We did socialise I suppose. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Because we were always at the at the sergeant’s mess was the sergeant’s mess and everybody mixed in there. Sergeants. Officers went to their own mess. But our crew of course at the time were all either a sergeant or flight sergeant apart from Jim Cameron, the navigator. He was a flying officer. Canadian. So he was the odd one out.
BW: How did you get on as a crew?
JML: Very good. Yeah. Really good. Yeah. Definitely.
BW: How did you all meet? Were you all put in to a large room together to sort yourselves out or, or not?
JML: No, you just, it was actually, probably two. Two to a room at the time. Aye. And at the time, at that time, apart from Jim Cameron, the navigator who was a flying officer all the rest of us were either sergeants or flight sergeants. And of course we were all more or less all together all the time.
BW: Did you get the opportunity to go off base and socialise? To go in to the nearest town?
JML: Oh yeah. Definitely.
BW: Have a few beers.
JML: Yeah aye. I mean, we were quite, quite the [pause] the Canadian lads probably kept together more than with the RAF lads. We more or less kept to ourselves. Mickey Neville and Davy Lambert etcetera. When I think about it now. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
BW: Why do you think that was? Was there, was it a cultural thing?
JML: No. It was just —
BW: Or just circumstance.
JML: Yeah. No, no reason why not. Yeah.
BW: So thinking now about your operations and what you were going to do describe for us how you would be briefed. What sort of things would lead up to the start of a mission and what would you do yourself when you got to the aircraft?
JML: Well, briefing used to take place probably very late afternoon. Depending, depending on the take-off time. And of course each, each section had their own briefing. Apart from when all the crew members were together at the main briefing. Then after the main briefing the sergeants, gunners etcetera went to the gunnery officer. The navigators went to their. So in actual fact the main briefing would take place with all the crew members together at one time. Then after you had been told etcetera where you were going the officer in charge said the gunners or the wireless operator and that would call more or less their own briefing and give you information about what they thought you should do when you got on board the plane. And that was what I can remember anyway. It’s hard to remember. It is.
BW: I know. So, thinking now, at this point you’ve been briefed on your operation and you’re presumably driven out to the aircraft at dispersal. What would you do as a crew from being dropped off? What sort of, did you have any good luck rituals or checks that you would do when you got into your position in the aircraft?
JML: No. No. Not really. When you got on board of course like there was seven of you. Three or four, four at the front approximately. You all take your positions etcetera. Mid-upper gunner of course is middle turret. The rear gunner, myself, in the rear. And then the skipper would call up to make sure you were all in your position and you’d checked everything and you were quite happy. That you were ready to go. He did that with all the crew.
BW: And how did it feel when the engines started and you were on your way sort of thing?
JML: Well —
BW: Taxiing out.
JML: That didn’t seem to bother. It was just like taking off again, you know. The only thing that was going to be a bit different when you crossed the Channel but other than that it was just straight forward. Yeah.
BW: And I believe you had an eventful first sortie. You’d been briefed to go. First operation. You’d been briefed to raid Stuttgart.
JML: Stuttgart. Yeah.
BW: And describe for me what had happened when you’d taken off.
JML: Oh, we’d had an uneventful trip. No trouble at all. Across the Channel, over France etcetera heading towards Germany. We had no bother at all. Occasional flashes of flak somewhere but other than that there was no bother at all until we got near the target area and then it started to brighten up a bit if that’s the right word. We didn’t see any night fighters. Plenty of flak. And then when we got to the target area the flak was very strong and there, unfortunately we were hit and the pilot had to turn off one of the engines because that was hit very badly. And so we’d three engines, so we [pause] he just dropped the bombs where we were which was somewhere near the target and turned around and headed for home. But by that time he’d decided to take drastic action and he cut off the engine altogether so we were flying on three engines and headed for the target. Well, away from the target to get back to England which was a good trip all the way actually. No problems at all apart from the plane seemed to be losing a bit of height etcetera. But other than that we had no trouble at all getting back to the coast. By that time we were, I think we might have been struggling regarding fuel because the pilot had asked the navigator to find out the nearest aerodrome as we were crossing the Channel which he did. And we headed, headed for that particular, that particular aerodrome. I cannot, I can’t think of the damned name of it now. But that’s where we headed for but, and we got there and got permission to land. And the pilot made an attempt to land but as he made the attempt to land another aircraft which I think was a Lancaster was underneath us so we opened up the engines and headed back out over the sea. And unfortunately, I don’t know what happened but a minute or so after we’d attempted to land the pilot was shouting, ‘We’re going down. We’re going down.’ And a few seconds later, I’m still in the rear turret, the plane hit the sea and it, I think it broke up mid-way along, mid-way along the thing but by that time I’d only just got out the turret and was thrown up. Thrown up the plane. I don’t know if I was semi- conscious or not but I found myself in the middle of the aircraft and presence of mind, I don’t know why I stood up. I was standing in the middle of the aircraft. Well, there was a handle and that handle released the dinghy. I probably didn’t realise it at the time. So I pulled the handle anyway and could see the actual dinghy come out the wing and inflate itself automatically. Of course that didn’t bother me because I mean having been used to water in civilian life I wasn’t bothered at all. So, I mean, I scrambled out. I scrambled out the plane somehow and managed to keep pulling on the dinghy to get the dinghy right out. And Davy Lambert, the other gunner had climbed on the wing of the plane and between us we got the dinghy going and Davy got in the dinghy. And then we, I was still sitting on the, on the wing and then I got in to the water itself and started to shout out names etcetera to find out where everybody was like. And eventually we all got in to the dinghy. I was last in because I was quite happy in the water. I wasn’t bothered. Water didn’t bother me. We got them all in to the dinghy and fortunately they, on the land they knew that the plane had gone into the sea somewhere and an air sea rescue launch picked us up within the hour. So it was very very quick. Quick. A very, very quick hour. But everybody was alright. Nobody, nobody was injured even though the, even though the plane was in a mess and as I say we were picked up within the hour so that was it. Our first trip. Brilliant.
BW: And this was November 26/27, 1943.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And presumably you’d come back at night.
JML: Pardon?
BW: You’re still night time.
JML: That happened —
BW: So this has all happened in the dark and the cold.
JML: 4 o’clock in the morning it was. Approximately.
BW: So, it’s pitch black.
JML: Oh yeah.
BW: And freezing cold water.
JML: It was bloody cold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But as I said water didn’t bother me so I was alright, you know. I was more interested in what was happening to the rest of crew if they couldn’t swim. As it happened most of them could swim so [pause] And the plane hadn’t really broken up like I thought it might have done. So the wing was still there with it. With the, where the dinghy was. And we were all quite, well, I wouldn’t say quite happy in the dinghy but at least we were all in the dinghy and very quickly picked up by the air sea rescue lads. Pitch dark mind you. But we were making enough noise for them to find us. But it was no bother.
BW: And so I’m assuming that the rescue launch was using a searchlight to sweep the sea to look for you.
JML: Sea. Right.
BW: And it was only from signalling or shouting while you were in the dinghy that they could try and locate you.
JML: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because we’d no lights or anything. No. Nothing at all.
BW: Amazing.
JML: Yeah.
BW: So, what happened when you got on board and were taken back to base? Were, were you debriefed at all any further or —
JML: Well, we, as I said it was right down south. I can’t. I can’t remember any debriefing to tell you the truth. I can’t remember any bit of it because obviously we’d landed at this place down south when we should have been up in Yorkshire. So, we stopped there anyway. I think we stopped there. A little bit of a stop there that day and I think it was the next day [pause] that’s right. We were only there a day and then we were, made our way back to Leeming in Yorkshire. By train of course. Got the train in to, got the train into London and then we headed back home over to, to Leeming. Yeah. I think that was it anyway. Near enough.
BW: And did any of the senior officers wonder where you’d been?
JML: They knew. They must have got notified like that, over what, I can’t remember the registration. It doesn’t matter. There were [pause] no. I’m just trying to — anyway, they knew anyway that something had happened to us and that we were alright. And I can always remember that I had it and I can’t find it. I think it was, I think it was 6 Group, I think, if I remember rightly. The Canadians. 6 Group. And when the, when the Group paper came out the next day or a couple of days later I can see the headline now. It had it across it. The headline of the paper was well [pause] all the Canadian squadrons had a name. We were, we were the Bison Squadron. And on the headlines of the paper in red, “Bison boys launched on maiden trip.” That was the first trip we had done and in the paper that was the headline. And it gave a, what had actually happened to us, you know and what annoys me is I have an old typewriter upstairs and up to a few years ago I’d got the newspaper itself. I got the front page of it from wherever it was like. We all got one I suppose. I kept that for years. That’s what I was trying to find. And on the old typewriter upstairs I made a typed copy of it. Of what it said. I can’t find it. So that that was our only trip with Bomber Command.
BW: But you became a member of the Goldfish Club as a result.
JML: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Did you get a badge?
JML: It’s there. It’s the yellow one. The smallest.
BW: So this is like a what we now say is a credit card sized.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Piece of card that says on it Goldfish Club Membership Card 1942 with the emblem on and details you as, “Sergeant J McK Leith. James McKenzie Leith qualified as a member of the Goldfish Club by escaping death by the use of emergency equipment on 27th November 1943.” Fantastic. And the design of this card, it says is based on the unique waterproof card issued during World War Two.
JML: Yeah. I can’t remember who sponsored that. I can’t think of his name. One of the richest men in Britain.
BW: I can only think the Duke of Westminster but there’d be others of course.
JML: I can’t remember his name.
BW: The sig.
JML: We got though —
BW: The signature on it is Charles Robertson.
JML: Aye. He’s the one organised the thing, isn’t he?
BW: Robertson.
JML: You got a payment you know from it. This chap I’m talking about.
BW: Right.
JML: You got, you got seven days leave after you ditched and you got paid by whoever it was that started this Goldfish thing. What was he called? Bloody hell. Anyway, he was one of the, he was one of the richest men anyway and he, I think you got seven days leave and you got seven days pay which he paid. That’s if I remember right properly. I don’t know if you’ve heard that before or not.
BW: I haven’t but I’m sure you’re right.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And so you arrived back at Leeming and you’re all dried and back to normal.
JML: Oh yeah. Not, not long back to normal.
BW: And what happened? What happened next?
JML: Oh dear [pause]
BW: Did you continue any other operations or sorties with the Bison Squadron?
JML: They decided, when I say they decided, they got there the squadron commander, a wing commander at the top decided that the pilot Charlie Bois, he was called [pause] it was, that’s right we were still fit to fly the Halifax. He wasn’t very tall, wasn’t Charlie Bois. Fairly small. That’s the pilot I’m talking about. And anyway, they decided that he was still alright for flying. But about a month later we, we were we had some time off actually flying. And then we got [pause] It would be about a month before we were picked to go on another. Another bombing raid. I can’t remember the date. The details. But the [pause] got on the plane at the dispersal point and somehow or other as we left the dispersal point, by the way this is, we were still into November December and it’s gone dark of course at four or 5 o’clock like, you know. And somehow or other at Leeming there was two squadrons. We were the Bison Squadron and the other squadron was the Lion Squadron. I can’t remember the number of it but it was the Lion Squadron. And on this particular day we were going on this other flight which would have been our second flight. As we taxied at our dispersal point an aircraft from the Lion Squadron coming down the [pause] I can’t describe it.
[pause]
Now, this aircraft from the Lion Squadron coming around the perimeter track, and we coming, coming out of our own dispersal point and this aircraft from the, the Lion Squadron hit our aircraft as we left the dispersal point. Very [pause] really damaged the planes and mind you we all scrambled out and we were all right. And the lads from the Lion Squadron they were alright as well. But the two aircraft were a right mess. So that, that flight was cancelled completely. And after that I don’t exactly know what happened but that Charlie, as I said he wasn’t a very big bloke he was taken off flying bombers. I don’t know who decided it, but somebody decided he’d be better flying lighter aircraft so he was taken off the squadron and what happened to him after that I’ve got no idea. But the RAF lads that was myself, the mid-upper gunner, the wireless operator and, no that’s, that’s right. We three RAF lads were sent to another unit and I think it was Dishforth. Dishforth. Either Dishforth or Driffield, one or the other to await being crewed up with another pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. That’s it. Yeah. Now then, as I say it was either Dishforth or Driffield but it doesn’t matter. That was another Conversion Unit and we went there in, we were now in to December. I don’t know why but for some unknown reason we three, Mickey Neville, Davy Lambert and myself were at that unit for oh a long, long time. I think they’d forgotten about us. But eventually [pause] I’m just trying to imagine how we got crewed up again. I can see it all but [pause] Anyway, we got crewed up again but I just can’t remember. I can remember the pilot. Pilot Officer Proud. P R O U D. Another Canadian. And I think we must have still kept the three other Canadians as well. But thankfully time was flying past.
JML: You must have been in the unit well into the spring of ’44.
BW: This is what I’m trying to remember. I’m trying to remember exactly how it came about. As I say we got this, this bloke called Pilot Officer Proud. I’ll never forget his name. I was just trying to remember where. [pause] Anyway, to cut a long story short Pilot Officer Proud hadn’t flown on any operations at all. So we went to Linton on Ouse. Does that ring a bell?
BW: Yes. That’s in Yorkshire.
JML: Yeah. That’s right. We teamed up with Pilot Officer Proud. That’s it. More or less with the same, the same crew as previously apart from the pilot. But the crew stopped the same. Right. I’m trying to think of is it, did I say Dishforth?
BW: You said it was, it was either at Dishforth or Driffield. And I think there was a Conversion Unit at Dishforth. But you then moved from there once you’ve met your new pilot to Linton, Linton on Ouse. So it sounds like you’ve been assigned a new pilot and are ready to be transferred to a new squadron.
JML: I’m trying to think which one it was actually. 429 Squadron. 429 624148. What you find in there? 429.
BW: After December ’43 at Dishforth it was 426 Squadron for the remainder of the war. And then at Linton.
JML: Linton on Ouse.
BW: 426 must have moved from there. From Dishforth to Linton as well. So if you’ve gone from those two airfields it’s possible you’ve been with 426.
JML: I’ve got them here.
[recording paused]
BW: So you met and crewed up with Pilot Officer Proud again.
JML: Correct.
BW: And he was from 408 Squadron. That’s what you’re saying.
JML: No. That’s where we got him but he hadn’t flown on any operational trips when we crewed up with him. We’d only done one but he hadn’t done any at all. Right. Now, he went on an operation as a second pilot with 408 Squadron. Now, where they were going I don’t know but they never came back. It was lost with all the crew including Pilot Officer Proud. So we never flew any operations at all with Pilot Officer Proud unfortunately. I had a hectic time for a bit. Flying.
[pause]
JML: Now, why have I put that there?
BW: So, Pilot Officer Proud went up on an a operation as a —
JML: Second pilot.
BW: Second pilot and never came back.
JML: Yeah.
BW: You then returned to Dishforth. To the holding unit.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And your new pilot who you met was — ?
JML: Must be Lawrence.
BW: Lawrence.
JML: Toft. T O F T.
BW: And was he an officer?
JML: No. Not then he wasn’t. He was a flight sergeant.
BW: Flight sergeant. Ok. And so you’ve now got, you personally have moved onto your third crew.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Now. And what happened with Toft? You called him Tofty. Is that right?
JML: Lawrence.
BW: Lawrence.
JML: Or Lawrie. Yeah.
BW: Did you do much training with him?
JML: No. Because he had already done three trips I think with, back to the, what did they call the squadron earlier when we ditched in the sea. He came from that squadron.
BW: 429 Bison.
JML: 429. Yeah. And we went to Dishforth, wasn’t it?
BW: Yes.
JML: What, what, when was that? What?
BW: That would be spring 1944.
JML: What was that with?
BW: So you were there several months between the holding posts.
JML: I went with him.
BW: And it was a while because you thought they’d forgotten about you all. And you then would have been assigned your crew roughly Spring 1944.
JML: Yeah. As I say we got Tofty. That’s right. Then we went [pause] Yeah. We got Tofty.
BW: How would you describe him? What sort of a person was he?
JML: Very clever. I did try to think. Mickey Neville, Davy Lambert, myself. That’s the three of us. I’m just trying to fit in the other. He was actually Canadian that one.
[recording paused]
BW: So your crew now.
JML: Yeah.
BW: If I read these names out to you. Flight Sergeant A J Toft.
JML: That’s right.
BW: Flight Sergeant Johnston.
JML: Johnston. Yeah.
BW: Sergeant T S Jones.
JML: That’s him.
BW: Sergeant G H Messenger.
JML: George.
BW: That’s George Messenger.
JML: George Messenger.
BW: Sergeant Mickey Neville.
JML: Mickey Neville.
BW: M R Neville.
JML: David Lambert. Yeah.
BW: And sergeant D P —
JML: That’s the one I couldn’t remember. He’s Canadian the [pause] I’ve lost him again. Jones. Tommy Jones is it?
BW: Yeah.
JML: Tommy Jones.
BW: Yeah. Jones. T S Jones.
JML: Bomb aimer. Yeah. That’s the one, that’s what I’ve been trying to think about.
BW: And he was your bomb aimer.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And he was Canadian.
JML: Right. Yeah.
BW: And what sort of a guy was he?
JML: Very queer but can’t account for that. Not queer, queer.
BW: Quirky perhaps or unusual.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And so what was going to be your next mission with them?
JML: We went abroad.
BW: You were sent abroad to 624 Squadron. Is this right? To Libya.
JML: Hmmn?
BW: Did you go to Libya? You say you went abroad.
JML: That’s right.
BW: You were posted to 624 Squadron.
JML: Blida.
BW: Blida, Algeria.
JML: Yeah. B L I D A. Blida.
BW: And this is now special duties.
JML: That’s right. I just couldn’t think of that bloody bloke’s name. Jones. Tommy Jones. Anyhow.
BW: And how did you end up as a crew being posted there? Did you volunteer or were you picked?
JML: Just, were just sent. Yeah.
BW: And what was that base like? What was Algeria like?
JML: It was actually quite good. In fact, very good actually.
BW: Did you fly out there or did you —
JML: Oh yeah.
BW: Travel by ship.
JML: We took a brand new Halifax out to that place. Different to the one that we had but they changed the tail on it. Made it a square tail instead of that way and it was a new one. Brand new. We picked it up at a place called, Hurn is it? Hurn, near Bournemouth. Yeah. We took that with us.
BW: So was this a brand new Mark 5?
JML: Yeah. It would be. Yeah.
BW: Mark 5 Halifax.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And you flew it from Bourne.
JML: That’s it.
BW: To Blida.
JML: To Blida.
BW: Blida.
JML: Yeah. So we got on to special duties instead of Bomber Command.
BW: And what sort of things were you doing on special duties? Do you remember what sort of operations you were tasked with?
JML: Yeah. Either dropping agents or dropping supplies to the French in Southern France.
BW: Did you get to talk to any of the agents at all?
JML: Not allowed. No.
BW: What were your briefings like at this stage then? When you, when you joined this brand new squad, well for you it was a brand new squadron, what were your briefings like now as regards preparation for a mission? What were you told about it?
JML: Well, briefings briefly consist of whether you were dropping agents or dropping supplies and that was more or less, and of course whether you were going to Southern France or anywhere you were going. But at no time were you allowed to have a conversation with any passenger that you were taking because it was all top secret. And that was more or less the briefing. Yeah.
BW: Were you able to find out anything about the agents that you were tasked with dropping or the cargo that you would carry as supplies? Was any of that ever made known to you?
JML: No. No.
BW: So —
JML: Definitely not.
BW: So if the pilot ever knew he wasn’t even able to discuss it with you as crew. If the pilot knew he wasn’t able to discuss it with you as crew then.
JML: No. Definitely not.
BW: And what were these operations like in comparison to the couple that you had flown with Bomber Command? Was there a difference for you as a gunner? Were you, did you feel it was a better environment or less hostile for example or what?
JML: A lot less hostile because —
[pause]
BW: How was it being in the rear of this Halifax this time? Were there, were the missions quieter in that you didn’t fly over heavily defended targets? Is that right?
JML: Yeah, yeah, yeah the, the flights from Blida in North Africa mostly went to Southern France and of course you flew most of them over water of course and once you reached the coast you then had to find where the agents were and nine times out of ten they were in the, in the mountains. And the mountains were the biggest, the biggest drawback we had.
BW: And you were still flying at night on these missions.
JML: They were all night. Night. Yeah. All night missions. Yeah.
BW: And from 624 you moved on to 148 Squadron.
JML: [unclear] Yeah. 148.
BW: Which would be, which would be flying from Italy.
JML: Brindisi.
BW: And doing the same sort of work.
JML: Exactly the same, dropping supplies or agents, yeah.
BW: And from Italy you presumably saw out the rest of your service with 148 Squadron. At what stage were you sent back to the UK?
JML: I’m trying to think how long we stopped in there. We flew back to, to Cairo [pause] to await transport to the UK. And that was it.
BW: And was that 1945? Or would it be after do you think?
JML: No. No. I’m trying to think when we, 1944 we were flying, was that 1945? Would it be ’45 or was it late nineteen — ? Oh, it must have been ’45. ‘44 we flew out of from England, did the tour. Yeah.
BW: And how long did you stay in the RAF after the war?
JML: Not so long. I can’t think when I came out.
BW: Would it be 1946—
JML: ’46, I think.
BW: When you were repatriated and left at, in 1947. Discharged on 28th of September 1948.
JML: As long as that did I wait?
BW: You’ve come back to Wheaton or Kirkham.
JML: Kirkham.
BW: In 1946.
JML: That’s it, yeah.
BW: And that’s when you met a WAAF.
JML: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: What was her name?
JML: Hmmn?
BW: What was her name?
JML: Margaret Iddon. You want her surname.
BW: Your, your girlfriend at the time. In 1946. What was her name?
JML: Margaret. You want her, do you want her —
BW: What —
JML: You want her surname as well. That’s it. Margaret Iddon. I D D O N. Oh well, no, I’m getting confused. Sawford. Sorry. S A W F O R D I think. Sawford. That’s, that’s your mum’s name isn’t it, Margaret?
Other: Yeah. I knew you’d mentioned Iddon and I thought well I’m not in on this.
JML: It’s amazing how I get confused Margaret.
Other: Never mind.
BW: And what happened after? After you were demobbed?
JML: I went working for [pause] as a salesman for Jackson, the tailor.
BW: And how long were you there?
JML: A long time. ‘Til maybe about, probably 1965 or ’66. More or less to retirement, near enough.
BW: And what do you think of the commemorations taking place at the moment Bomber Command? It’s been a while since the veterans have been commemorated but now they’re being honoured, if you like for their service. What do you think?
JML: Well, yeah because we were having this place what’s it called again? I’ve forgotten the name.
BW: Lincoln or Hyde Park. The Memorial at Hyde Park.
JML: Well, I think that’s the [pause] that one at the Arboretum. Is it the Arboretum?
BW: Oh, yes the National.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Memorial Arboretum at Stafford.
JML: Yeah. I’ve been going there for the last ten years on and off. Obviously we’ve got, we’ve got a spot there.
BW: Are you glad the veterans of Bomber Command are being remembered?
JML: I suppose so. Yeah. Because I mean they [pause] I’m just trying to think if there’s a proper thing.
BW: There’s a Memorial in London.
JML: Yeah. Yeah. I got an invite to that but I didn’t go.
BW: And there’s now this Centre in Lincoln.
JML: Yeah. The only other one I know about is this one at the Arboretum which is where the Special Duties have their place.
BW: Alright. Well, that’s, that’s all the questions I have for you, Jim.
JML: Thank God for that.
BW: Thank you very much for your time.
JML: Yeah. Well, I’m sorry I can’t give you as much as I wanted to do, you know.
BW: That’s alright. Thank you very much.
JML: I’m trying to remember things, you know.
[recording paused]
BW: So, this is Brian Wright interviewing Flying Officer Jim McKenzie Leith on the afternoon of Thursday the 12th of January 2017 at his home at Fulwood, Preston in Lancashire. Now, Jim you’ve kindly told me that you were born the 21st of May in 1924 in Bathville near Glasgow and you were the middle brother of five. You had two brothers and two sisters. And that you left school at fourteen and you had been a member of the Air Training Corps prior to joining the RAF in 1940. And following your initial training as airman and then trade training as an air gunner you joined 429 Canadian Squadron in Yorkshire based at RAF Leeming. And you described for me your first sortie when you were returning from a raid on Stuttgart on the 27th of November 1943 and were forced to ditch in the, in the Channel. And you recovered from that. After a period of time on holding squadrons at Dishforth you were then sent to Bilda, sorry Blida.
JML: Blida.
BW: Blida, in Algeria in 1944. And you were first on 624 Squadron and this is a special duty squadron that I’d like to ask you about. You flew a brand new Halifax out. And how did it feel to join this new squadron? Were you aware of the sort of things you were going to do when you arrived in Algeria?
JML: No idea. No idea at all.
BW: And when do you recall your first operations with this squadron? What sort of things did you have to do?
[pause]
BW: You were dropping supplies and agents in to Southern France, weren’t you?
JML: Yeah. Definitely.
BW: You couldn’t talk to these guys who you were flying.
JML: No. Well, we mostly dropped supplies. Very seldom did we drop agents. Just occasionally. But the briefing etcetera was quite plain enough as you were flying, flying across water all the time ‘til you got to Southern France. And then you had to find out the position where the agents were but mostly they were in the, in the mountains and so the thing was to make sure that you got your position right because if you didn’t, depending on the weather would you be able to make your drop or not because most of Southern France there was mountains all around where the agents were in secrecy waiting on supplies coming etcetera.
BW: And do you recall what the pilot had to do or you as a crew had to do on the approach to the drop zone?
JML: It was very important actually approaching there because obviously there was different signals. We did signal which we would flash to the ground and if we were in the right position we got a flash back from the ground. But it had to be matched up with the letter or number or whatever it was you were expecting because obviously there was plenty of Germans around on the ground as well and they got the message that we were sending down which was the letter of the day. Which of course changed by the way at different places. And of course the Germans would try and find out and flash a letter back hoping that it was the same as the one we were expecting and we would drop the goods. But nine times out of ten of course the letter we got flashed back was the right letter. But occasionally there were times when you got a different letter. And of course you knew right away that it was the wrong area and you would definitely not drop any ammunition or anything else, or agents depending what you were dropping that particular day.
BW: And were there occasions when you didn’t get the right signal?
JML: Oh, definitely. You’d get the wrong, the wrong letter of the day, you just ignored it.
BW: And did you experience any ground fire let’s say from the Germans? Were they, did they attempt to shoot at you if they thought you were going to approach?
JML: Very very, very occasionally.
BW: And did you have to fire your guns back at them?
JML: Very seldom. Very, very seldom.
BW: And do you recall what sort of height you would be when this was taking place? Were you at low level? Or were you —
JML: The drop, the drop zones were very, very difficult because as I said nine times out of ten they were in the mountains and depending on the weather etcetera it was very difficult to judge the height of the mountains. And especially in the Pyrenees where most of the agents were in hiding. Very very difficult.
BW: And on the times when you had to drop agents by parachute were you able to speak with them at all?
JML: No, nobody was allowed to talk to any of the agents in the area. In the plane or out the plane. It was taboo. Not allowed.
BW: And so you never knew the names of the people you were —
JML: Definitely not.
BW: You had on board.
JML: No.
BW: I understand some of the agents were occasionally dropped in handcuffs because they had potentially been in prison. One veteran from 624 told me of an incident where that happened. Did that ever take place with you at all? No.
JML: Definitely not. No.
BW: And what were the facilities like at Blida?
JML: The what?
BW: What were the facilities like at Blida?
JML: Oh, quite, quite good. Quite good. Some of them had tents. But we and our crew were very fortunate. We’d quite a good billet. A nice wooden billet.
[pause]
BW: How long were you with 624 Squadron? Do you recall?
JML: I would say three months. Three months. Maybe four.
BW: And you and your crew had been posted to the squadron from your previous unit in England. So none of you had volunteered for special duties.
JML: No. No.
BW: You were just posted as a part of a routine squadron.
JML: Definitely.
BW: Were you given any extra money? Were you paid any extra for these?
JML: No.
BW: Operations. No.
JML: No.
BW: And were you trained or given any briefings on resistance to interrogation if you were forced to land or were captured in France?
JML: No.
BW: After your service with 624 you moved on to another special duties squadron, 148.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Where were they based?
JML: Brindisi.
BW: In Italy.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And you were, where were you flying missions to in in Europe from this base?
JML: All the [unclear] countries, Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece. All around All around the Balkans.
BW: And the same question I suppose. Were you ever able to learn anything of what these operations involved in terms of supplies? The type of supplies you were dropping or agents.
JML: Not really. No. The only time we were advised on ammunition etcetera was special operations to Poland, and Warsaw where the uprising was taking place and they needed, they needed ammunition of any description.
BW: Can you tell me what you understood of the operation that was briefed to you about this? What were you told about flying to Poland on this particular occasion? This would be August 1944.
JML: Yeah. Well, the uprising was taking place but, but they were fighting a losing battle because of the number of Germans that were actually occupying Warsaw at the time. And the [pause] they were very short, the Polish Resistance regarding food and ammunition etcetera. So it was very, very difficult.
BW: And do you recall how many flights you had to make in support of the Poles in Warsaw?
JML: I think we made four trips in all to Poland itself especially during the month of August forty — it would be ’44, would it?
BW: That’s right.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And was it noticeably heavier in the aircraft because of the load you were carrying or —
JML: No. No. Definitely not.
BW: How would they carry out this sort of drop? Were the supplies positioned in the bomb bay?
JML: Yeah. Normal. Yeah. Carried them instead of bombs. And in the interior. The interior of the plane as well. Yeah. It was very, not much room at all in the plane because it was always packed with either kit bags or [pause] well, and it depended how much we could take apart from what was in the bomb bay.
BW: And your pilot was a Lawrence Toft.
JML: Ahum.
BW: What do you recall of him?
JML: Lawrence was a very, very quiet fella. Very quiet. But what he did say it made you think that he knew what he was doing and he had great faith in the rest of his crew because his crew had great faith in him.
BW: And did you feel on these missions that it was any more dangerous than what you would have done flying over Germany?
JML: The trips to Poland, especially to Warsaw were very difficult because we were flying in to a city and flying in very low to make sure that what we were carrying dropped in the right spot because if they weren’t dropped in the right spot the Germans could get to them before the Polish partisans. Very difficult.
BW: And over the city you would be getting signals from the rooftops instead of —
JML: Yeah.
BW: Of the country.
JML: And we were flying very, very, very low. About three hundred feet above the city. And most of the partisans at that particular time in Warsaw were more or less short of ammunition, short of food, more or less short of everything.
BW: And I believe there were enemy troops positioned on the roofs of the city.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Firing at you as you approached. Is that correct?
JML: Oh definitely.
BW: What do you recall of your sight of the city when you were flying over it? What kind of things could you see?
JML: There’s lots of parts as well. The city itself in parts was just a mass of flames. Some parts of it wasn’t but most of it, and there was a lot of activity. You could see the gun flashes and I think most of them were from the Germans fighting the partisans on the ground. There wasn’t much activity in the air. Quite a bit sometimes but mostly it was on the ground.
BW: And was your target Napoleon Square?
JML: That was it, the centre of Poland.
BW: And so the three or four trips that you made were they over a week or over a couple of days or —
JML: A week. Yeah. A week to ten days, definitely. Some, some were right into the heart of Poland. The city itself. A couple of them were on the way in. Where the partisans were doing their best.
BW: Did you see any other supply aircraft at the time?
JML: No.
BW: Were you flying —
JML: No.
BW: With other aircraft from your same squadron?
JML: There were other aircraft supposed to be there like we were there but I never saw any other planes.
BW: And were you ever, was the aircraft you were in ever hit by ground fire at all? Do you recall any of that?
JML: Oh yes. Hit by the flak. But only very light. Yeah.
BW: Did any of it come near you?
JML: No.
BW: And were any of your fellow crewmen hit at all or injured?
JML: No. There was no hits, no injuries fortunately. Yeah.
BW: So you came back from these operations pretty well unscathed.
JML: More or less. Yeah.
BW: And there were no issues with the aircraft when you landed. Nothing had been disrupted.
JML: Oh yeah.
BW: With the undercarriage for example.
JML: Oh yeah. Yeah. There was marks and that on the plane that had been hit by anti-aircraft fire etcetera but nothing, nothing serious.
BW: Could you feel it when the aircraft was hit?
JML: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: And what was that like?
JML: That was only light. Very [pause] how can I can’t describe it? It was very very light anti-aircraft fire.
BW: Presumably like machine guns or rifle fire and things like that. And were you debriefed in the sense were you given information about how successful the drops had been at all?
JML: Oh yes. Yeah. Definitely.
BW: And what sort of things were you told?
JML: As regards the drops etcetera the actual drops that were done were very successful. There was quite, quite a number of aircraft took part in these special drops. I think in one night, I think it was sometime in August, the squadron did lose over a, over the two nights I think they lost four aircraft. Which were either shot down on their way in or shot down on their way back but they lost four.
BW: Did you know any of these crews?
JML: No.
BW: Were you able to befriend or did you get to know any of the other crews while you were stationed at Brindisi?
JML: Not really. We more or less stuck to ourselves, you know. When you’ve got seven of a crew, you know we were all quite friendly.
BW: And were there any other squadrons based with you at Brindisi at the time?
JML: Not, not on Brindisi. There was a [pause] there was a Polish squadron there as well but there wasn’t there wasn’t many of them. Just a few. I can’t remember the number of it but they were based at Brindisi the same as we were.
BW: Were they flying Halifaxes like you?
JML: Yeah.
BW: It must have been quite important for them to be flying supplies into their own, into their own country.
JML: Oh, very much so. Yeah.
BW: After the uprising had finished were you continuing to fly with 148 or did you stop at that point?
JML: No. No. We started, carried on. Back to dropping supplies into Northern Italy where the partisans were and also still supplying Yugoslavia, Greece, Albania which were still occupied by the, by the Germans.
BW: Did you ever land in these places to offload supplies or not?
JML: No. We had, had two or four small aircraft which were stationed at Brindisi and they would. They would fly in to take a couple of secret agents in and land on a bit of land where they could get out and then the small aircraft would take off again and come back to Brindisi.
BW: Were they Lysanders?
JML: Yeah.
BW: The small ones.
JML: That’s the ones.
BW: Did you ever speak with any of the pilots there?
JML: No.
BW: Or crew.
JML: No. No. It was very hush hush.
BW: And once you’d flown these missions and I think it went up until the end of ’44 when the squadron ceased what happened then?
JML: I think just before the end of the, around about Christmas time etcetera we, we were told that we had now done x number of hours which was a tour of operations completed and we as a crew we were being stood down. And we were being sent down to Cairo for a rest period.
BW: How long were you there? In Cairo? Do you know?
JML: Oh, I’ve no idea. Probably a couple of months or so, I think.
BW: What are your memories of your time with the squadron in 1944 and in Cairo when you were off duty?
JML: Yeah. There was four of the crew were still together and myself, Davy Lambert, Mickey Neville and Larry Toft. We, we four were together in Cairo. What as I say happened to the other, the other three I don’t really know.
BW: Because your other three were Canadians, weren’t they? You had Flight Sergeant Toft who was your pilot.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Flight Sergeant Johnstone.
JML: Yeah. He was a Scotsman. Yeah.
BW: Sergeant Jones. Tommy Jones —
JML: Yeah.
BW: Was Canadian. Sergeant George Messenger.
JML: He was a, yeah engineer.
BW: And as you say Sergeant Mickey Neville and —
JML: Davy Lambert.
BW: Davy Lambert.
JML: Jock Johnson, the Scotsman he’s, he stopped with the squadron. Why I don’t know but Jock stopped there. And I’m trying to think what [pause] oh, and George Messenger. He stopped with the squadron. That’s the two isn’t it? They would have stopped with the squadron but they wouldn’t be allowed to fly for a certain amount of time because they’d to have what they called a rest. A rest before they started on their second tour. But other than that I lost. I lost. What Jock Johnston or what George Messenger did I’ve no idea. We other four were kept at Cairo for quite some time. And then Lawrence, the pilot was told that he was going to start flying Dakotas. So we didn’t really know whether he was very happy about it but that’s, that left three of us. And we three were posted home. We had to stop in Cairo ‘til we got information to pick up a ship and prepare to, prepare to sail home.
BW: And would that be 1945 when you —
JML: ’44. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. That would be January/February. That’s it, yeah. Definitely.
BW: And do you recall where you were sent to? Where you arrived back in the UK?
JML: I think we landed at Liverpool. Definitely.
BW: And from there I understand you were posted to Kirkham camp near Blackpool.
JML: That’s right. Eventually. Yeah.
BW: And what happened while you were there?
JML: Just, that was, that was the, while we were there the war finished completely. And it became a demob centre.
BW: And you stayed in Lancashire because you met a young woman.
JML: Stayed there awaiting to get demobbed. Yeah.
BW: But you then met a young woman.
JML: Yeah. Aye. Margaret. Yeah.
BW: And so your relationship with her continued and you were married.
JML: Yeah.
BW: But only after a very short time. How long?
JML: I don’t know. Probably six months or something like that. Time I was there we got married. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: And you didn’t fancy staying with the RAF.
JML: No.
BW: And what, when you left did you go on to do then?
JML: I worked for the — what did that come under?
BW: Were you a salesman?
JML: Yeah. I was a salesman but I’m trying to think what I did. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, I became a salesman. I worked for the Burton Group. That’s the best way to put it down. As a salesman.
BW: And did you ever go back to Scotland? Did you ever consider resettling to Scotland?
JML: No. No.
BW: And so you’ve lived and worked in the Blackpool and Preston area for the rest of you time after the war.
JML: Yeah. Until retiring. Until retiring. Yeah. Definitely.
BW: And do you still attend the reunions for your squadron? Do you meet up with your friends?
JML: Aye, we have done until the last twelve months or so but I’m afraid that we’re only got down to two or three. That’s all. They’re the ones that used to go to [pause] what’s it called? The aerodrome.
BW: Elvington? Elvington?
JML: No.
BW: Was it an airfield near here?
JML: No. I’m talking about —
BW: Or the Arboretum.
JML: Not the Arboretum. No. Bloody hell, it’s wild, deary, deary dear. Down near, down near Wolverhampton that’s still going. What’s that big aerodrome?
BW: Cosford. Cosford?
JML: No.
BW: Near Wolverhampton. No.
JML: No. It’s still going there. The aerodrome’s still going. They all land there now. Everything lands there. That’s silly that I can’t remember that. Deary dear.
[recording paused]
JML: Did we say Brize Norton before?
BW: Yeah. At Brize Norton.
JML: Their number is 4624 so they adopted us.
BW: I see.
JML: And the [pause] and they used to go there every twelve months for a reunion.
BW: Until they decided it was —
JML: Well, it got —
BW: Elevated to an operational base and higher security status so it prevented you going.
JML: Stopped us going. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Right.
JML: And your latest award was the Legion d’Honneur. Is that correct? You received the medal from France.
BW: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh aye. Yeah. That’s on there somewhere.
JML: When did you receive that. Was it last year?
BW: I got it through the post but you could have it presented so when we ended the trip to [pause] oh bloody hell.
Other: The Arboretum.
JML: What’s it called? The bloody place where we got it.
Other: The Arboretum.
BW: Where?
Other: The Arboretum.
JML: The Arboretum. Aye. Yeah.
BW: So you had a little presentation while you were there.
JML: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Good.
JML: There was only two of us. You could have it presented or you could have it sent. But Joe, you know, this [unclear] it was his idea that while we were going to the Arboretum that we would have it done then but you didn’t need to do that. You’d just said you’d have it like and you’d get it. The only one I’ve spoken to that got his medal was Stanley. He lives right down south. He was a dispatcher as well you know and he had his presented by the local [pause]
BW: And was he on your squadron as well?
JML: Oh aye.
BW: But you never met him while you were serving in Italy or Algeria.
JML: No. I didn’t know him. No.
BW: Ok. That’s all the questions I have for you Jim. So, thank you very much for your time.
JML: It’s alright.
BW: For your recollections.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Very much appreciated.
JML: We had a good trip to France didn’t we?
Other: Yes. We did. Yeah.
JML: Bob and I and Margaret.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
JML: Somebody wrote, it must have been some paper. I don’t know which one it was. Wanted to meet somebody from the RAF and that that had done a drop in this place in France. Somebody from, was an ex, I think it was an ex-RAF man himself. Buck. A Frenchman of course. So, Stanley, the one I was talking about, the wing commander’s wife of what do they call it, squadron.
Other: [unclear]
JML: At Blida, somehow or other got in touch with us. The person who had put this advert on to me. Anyway, she and her husband and the one I just mentioned, Stanley were trying to find out who actually made the, made the drop. Anyway, we couldn’t find out because as we said it was top secret unless you knew the special names and that etcetera. But anyway they decided to go so Bob and I and Margaret plus Sally Ann and her husband and Stanley went to France to this village.
Other: Sigoyer, it was called.
JML: Sigoyer, that’s right love, you know. It was unbelievable. You’d thought we’d won the war, won the war on our own wouldn’t you. The way they looked after us.
Other: Yeah. They did very good.
JML: It was brilliant. That was three years ago now since we been there.
Other: Maybe more. Four now.
JML: Pardon?
Other: Maybe four.
JML: Maybe four. Yeah.
Other: They took us they took you to one of the canisters that had been dropped.
JML: Oh, aye. Definitely. Yeah.
Other: To the Resistance.
JML: Yeah. It was, it was a good trip was that. Yeah.
Other: The mayor of Gap and all the fire, firemen and all the services from the, from the town and the village. All came out and sang and they had a commemorative service.
JML: Took us in a truck. Another truck.
Other: [unclear]
JML: Another truck or what they called it, didn’t they? Up the mountain.
Other: Yeah.
JML: To where the actual drop was done.
Other: Yeah.
JML: Where the men used to hide. Yeah. It was very interesting.
BW: I bet you’d have rather been in the aircraft though than on the ground with the Resistance though, wouldn’t you?
JML: Oh. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. The, the girl that received the message, this, talking 1943 probably ‘43 maybe ’44. The BBC used to send messages out in code, and this woman who was the owner of the hotel, wasn’t she love? The daughter it was. My age now. But when she was, I think she was either fourteen, fifteen she picked the message up on the BBC that there was going to be a drop. It’s all in code you see. A certain a night, you know. So she was there, this lady. Told us all about it, didn’t she? Can’t remember what the code was. It doesn’t matter.
Other: I think it was something like the leg has fallen off the chair.
JML: Oh, that was it. Aye. It was code anyway.
Other: Something like that.
JML: Yeah. And it was ready for picking up or something like that. That was the code for that area.
Other: It’s a bit like something off, “Allo. Allo.”
JML: Yeah.
BW: Do you recall the lady’s name?
JML: Oh, no. No. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: So that’s, that would be a very unique experience to have met somebody who you dropped supplies to.
JML: Oh aye. I mean they took us in this four wheeled drive thing up the mountain as far as you could go. We had to walk the rest of the way and showed us exactly where the drop was made. And we were high up of course but in the valley below the mountain there were some caves and that’s where all the stuff was hidden away from the Germans. It was very interesting. Really interesting. Yeah.
BW: And they managed to survive in conditions like that?
JML: Yeah.
BW: Under occupation.
JML: Yeah. You’d have thought we won the war on our own the way they treated us. They were fantastic. Bob and Margaret still keep in touch with the school teacher. Get a card from her every now and again. Yeah. Oh, they really made a right good do of it.
BW: Brilliant.
JML: But the [pause] when we went to the France as a group, the special duties, they made a big song and dance about it. It was good. It was quite a [pause] there must have been about a dozen. A dozen or more went on the thing, but Brize Norton, the aerodrome, they supplied a guard of honour. Quite a, quite a guard of honour. And that was, that was well, the village itself were alright. They gave us all a medal of some description. I don’t know what it was. From the village. And we got the — what do you call it?
Other: Freedom of the town.
JML: Freedom of the town as well, you know. Gave us a medal for the freedom of the town. I’d like, I’d like to have gone back there as well but I’m getting too old for that sort of thing. Travelling. Old age catches up. Yeah.
BW: Right. As, I say that’s, that’s all the questions I have for you, Jim. So thank you very much again for your time.
JML: I’m sorry I couldn’t find —
BW: That’s alright.
JML: More of the stuff I thought I’d kept for you to see.
BW: That’s alright. Thank you.
[recording paused]
JML: And we just got on, we got on the river. And we just flew low following the river. We knew the river went into Warsaw after we’d made our way across [pause] what are the bloody mountains called? On the way in to Warsaw. After that it was very very, well, all hilly and that but somebody told us, one of the Warsaw blokes said, ‘Just get as low as you can on the river itself,’ which is the Vistula, ‘And that will take you right into the heart of Warsaw.’ So, well Laurie the pilot, as soon as we had crossed the mountains just put the nose down and got as low as he could and followed the river right into the heart of Warsaw. Yeah.
BW: So this was how you found the target?
JML: Yeah.
BW: I think, are they the Tatra Mountains because one of them, are they the Tatra Mountains in Poland. I think. But anyway, you come over the mountains, drop the nose, drop the aircraft down to presumably —
JML: River height.
BW: Fifty or a hundred or less.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And then after a certain distance because of course you’re following the river a little bit you see the outskirts of the town and you count the first of a series of bridges up the river.
JML: That was us. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Do you recall how many bridges? Was it three? Four?
JML: I think it was the third bridge but I’m not very sure you know. Yeah.
BW: Find the third bridge and turn left.
JML: And then that was the heart. That was the heart of the city. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: So, you, as the pilot was flying in obviously straight and level over the river he’s going to have to climb to make the turn over the, over the bridge. Otherwise he’s going to dip the wing into the river, isn’t he? So —
JML: Yeah. Well, what Lawrence did he, he knew what he had to do his job so what he did instead of dropping the parcels etcetera, etcetera, etcetera he didn’t. He carried on a bit further up the river because he knew where his target was. And when he turned around to drop the stuff in he knew then, what he told us about, he was on his way home. If he dropped the things on his way in it would have meant he would have to turn and then turn around and head for home. But Lawrence didn’t. He carried on, came back to the target area, flew over the target area, dropped what he had to do and he was on his way home then and I could, that’s what I said, I’m in, I’m in the rear turret as we were leaving and it was just a mass of flames. The city itself. I could just see it, you know. Yeah. But that’s what he did and that was, that was why we got away with it, you know because a lot of them got, when they got in got shot down unfortunately over the target area.
BW: So this is because the Germans or even the let’s say pro-German forces and possibly even the Russians knew which route the supply aircraft would come in.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And so Lawrie was avoiding that.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Flying further up the river.
JML: Just went straight on. Yeah.
BW: Made the turn over the city.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Instead of over the river.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And came straight over the target, made the drop and was straight out.
JML: On his way out.
BW: As opposed to having to turn over the target.
JML: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: That’s a smart move.
JML: It was a smart move. Definitely. Yeah. But there was a lot of politics involved in that part. The story goes that, well it’s in writing that Stalin wouldn’t allow the RAF planes to land in Russia. So whether that’s right or not I don’t know but that’s the story. That’s the story anyway and that’s why they lost so many bloody aircraft. Instead of being able to just go in, drop the bombs, turn into Russia and drop. Go on Margaret.
BW: And that was the profile you flew each time on those drops was instead of following the expected route you fly further up the river and make the turn later.
JML: That’s what Lawrence did, anyway. Yeah [pause] She’s off again. Aye.
BW: And even though it was at night you were able to see vividly the flames and flashes over the city.
JML: Terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Terrible. Well, we were flying that low, you know. I mean in Bomber Command you’re twenty thousand feet in the air. Fifteen thousand feet in the air. We were just above the drop. I think it was three hundred feet. I think it was. Either three hundred or four hundred feet and then we dropped the, dropped the stuff. Yeah.
BW: Right. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James McKenzie Leith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ALeithJM170112
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:11:41 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James McKenzie Leith was a swimming instructor before he joined the RAF. He trained as a gunner and was posted to 429 Squadron at RAF Leeming. On their first operation their aeroplane was damaged and they attempted an emergency landing but this was interrupted and they ditched in the sea. James deployed the dinghy and directed the crew to safety. He became a member of the Goldfish Club. His second pilot went on his second dickie trip and was killed in action. They got another new pilot and were deployed to 624 Squadron on Special Duties and then on 148 Squadron also on Special Duties dropping supplies and agents into occupied areas. When dropping supplies during the Warsaw Uprising James had a very close view of the burning city.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Algeria
Egypt
France
Great Britain
Italy
Poland
North Africa
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Algeria--Blida
Egypt--Cairo
England--Yorkshire
Italy--Brindisi
Poland--Warsaw
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942
1943-11-27
1944
1945-08
1944-09
1945
148 Squadron
429 Squadron
624 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
ditching
Goldfish Club
Halifax
RAF Dishforth
RAF Leeming
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Stormy Down
Resistance
training
Warsaw airlift (4 August - 28 September 1944)
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/931/11289/ALonghurstWJ180407.1.mp3
424c626566a83d4f46af2bc68695d0e3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Longhurst, William Joseph
W J Longhurst
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bill Longhurst (b.1924, 1874159 Royal Air Force). He served as a flight mechanic with 620 squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-04-07
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Longhurst, WJ
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DB: This is Denise Boneham and today I am interviewing William, Bill Longhurst, and today’s date is the 7th of April 2018 and it is currently 14.10. Bill, would you like to tell me a little bit about your life involved with the RAF?
BL: Certainly. Certainly, I volunteered for the RAF when I was just turned seventeen and a half, because I didn’t want to go in the Army. I was, had been in the Air Defence Cadet Corps, 1552 Squadron, Hackney Wick for two years and had decided that that’s where I would like to go, so when I got, I went to Euston Road Recruitment Centre, volunteered, had my medical and was awaiting to hear, my calling up, but before I got my calling up for the RAF I had a calling up paper for the army, or so I thought for the army. When I got to the Territorial Centre at Leytonstone after I had a medical, I went to see the reception, reception party there and I said, ‘could you tell me why I’ve been, received these calling up papers to come here?’ They said, ‘well, because you have your calling up for the army.’ I said, ‘Oh well I’m not,’ I said, ‘I’ve already volunteered for the RAF.’ He said, ‘have you been, got your papers?’ So I said, ’No.’ So he said, ‘well evidently they don’t want you.’ So I got a bit annoyed at that and thought what could I do? Well I walked away from the person interviewing me and I got called by one of the other interviewers, which was the second one along, and he called me over and he said, ‘there is an RAF officer along the corridor, about the fourth door on the left,’ he said, ‘go and, go along there,’ he said, ‘knock at the door and have a chat with him.’ Which I did. When I went along and knocked on the door and was asked to go in. I said sure enough I said there was a pilot officer sitting at the desk and he said,’ Can I help you?’ and I said, ‘yes, very much.’ I said, ‘because I volunteered for the RAF, I said, ‘I’ve been in the Air Defence Cadet Corps, which is changed to the Air Training Corps,’ I said, ‘and they’ve just told me now that I’ve been called up for the army.’ So he said, ‘that’s’ ridiculous, we can’t have that can we? We can’t lose someone like yourself.’ So he took full particulars and sure enough, I got my call up papers for the RAF. I, when I called up, I said, I called up and had to go to Bedford, and Cardington at Bedford, and when we got there, I said most of the people who lived around London I said, were called up and put in the billets. And the corporal come along, sorted us out in groups and we was marched off to get kitted out, with a greatcoat only. And I thought well that looks funny, this thing, this greatcoat fitted me twice! So I said, I said to the chap ‘this not my greatcoat surely!’ ‘Don’t worry.’ He said’ ‘you’re only going to get your photograph taken. So the next thing we did, we went along, and the chap draw the number, he had the one, he drew my number 187459 and I had to carry this piece of board, I said and sat down and do me greatcoat up, and I said you know I looked ridic, stuck, had a big greatcoat. Anyway, held the number in front and was told you know, no smiling, just look straight ahead. The photograph was taken and that was that, that was my first day at Cardington. On the evening, the chap came along, and was a sergeant this time, and he said, ‘right,’ he says, ‘you won’t be, tomorrow morning,’ he said, ‘you’ll be leaving here,’ he said, ‘so we’ll be kitting you out first,’ he said, then ‘with the kit,’ he said, ‘and you’ll be boarding the train which goes from the, there’s a halt specially for recruits.’ And he said, ‘by the way anybody live in London?’ He said, ‘there’s a poss’, oh everybody put their hand up, I said that’s great he said where’s the aerodrome you’d like to be? Well, being I lived in east London, I thought Hornchurch. I said, ‘I’d like to be at Hornchurch.’ There’s another couple of chaps also wanted and they were all saying all sorts of aerodromes which surrounded London, couple of you’s going to be very lucky then tomorrow. So the next morning when we rose, we got kit and then we marched on to the square which was quite close to where the halt was, and the train came in and eventually we climbed aboard the train and off we took. All the names of the stations during the war was taken down, so we didn’t know which way, where we were going, so we went to the, went away from the halt and on to the main line station and we started heading away to wherever we were destined to stop. We carried on along the track for some miles but no one could see or could remember which way we were going, [cough] and eventually one of the chaps turned round and said, ‘I’m afraid we’re not going towards London at all, we’re away somewhere else.’ So we all guessing, had a guessing game until finally [emphasis] we pulled in to Skegness. Now Skegness was a, when we got off the train there we were then marched straight away to have a meal and when we’d had our meal, we had to then form up outside and the corporal was there, they were drill corporals, they picked us, sorted us into sections and we were marched off to various places were our billets. Now the first ones that we went to was in Drummond Road in Skegness and that was a four-storey house, ex, people, you know, people that went there for holidays, right next to a place called the Arcadia: that was a theatre. And that’s where we were until half way through our training when we was transferred round on to the Windsor Hotel which was on the sea front. Now that was very good there, very good, big rooms and we were in the front room down stairs which was evidently a dining room which had beds in this time. [cough] We had these, our vaccinations and other, other inoculations and I unfortunately got vaccine fever and I was confined for twenty four hours, or sorry forty eight hours, excused duty, which one of the members had to bring back my food because I was confined to beds for forty eight hours. That they didn’t like very much! About three days later we had our, we did a stint of drill on the sea front, different things, doing this drill, we were then told to go indoors, change for PT, PE, well when we get inside everybody is shouting and talking, you know, getting ready to go. Unfortunately we had no blinds to pull and curtains to close, and two WAAFs was walking by, happened to stop outside the door, window, and everybody says oh there’s a couple of WAAFs out there and we said you know, everybody was saying, ‘oy oy, go on, move along, move along,’ because we were in a state of undress, some of us. So a sergeant suddenly walked through the front door, and he said, came in and he says, ‘right you lot,’ he says, ‘you’re on cookhouse fatigue tonight.’ So he says, ‘no need for that rumpus, you’re only attracting more attention.’ So that was that. So we ended up in the cookhouse which was unfortunate for me because I do not like cheese, no way do I like cheese and what we had for tea that night was toasted, sorry, fried bread with fried cheese on the top of it. So it was, well I had the job of washing all the trays out, that was my job. The only thing I had to eat that day was scrape the cheese off the fried bread and ate the fried bread: that was it, so that wasn’t very good at all. Right, so, the training was very good, and Alvar Lidell was a radio commentator, talking on the news on the BBC. Now he happened to be called up at the same time as we were, and in the paper a couple of days later it said: “Alvar Lidell is in Skegness. This is Alvar Lidell, a photograph of him and this is the square and Alvar Lidell bashing it.” Because when he used to announce on the BBC he used to say, ‘this is the news and Alvar Lidell reading it.’ The next thing I was I went on leave from, after did my infantry training and I went on leave and after that, I had my seven days leave I was posted to RAF Filton as a trainee mechanic. We had two Blenheims on this station at Filton, which is a, belongs really to the RAF and the Bristol Aircraft Company. Now we had two WAAF flight mechanics at the time, and most of the time I did more or less things that they asked me to do, different things, and if they wanted help, anything shape or form, I used to help them to do that. I used to have to prime the engines which are underneath the engine lascelles and they used to have the trolley action, tell the pilot, the other one used to tell the pilot when he’d to turn the props. So, sometimes they were, it was okay and sometimes it was a bit dodgy because, when they used to prime the aircraft, where you pushed the priming pump in it used to push petrol into the spider which was on the top of the cylinders and the pilot at the same time was told to turn the propellers to suck the petrol up into the engines and switch the switches on, make them start. Sometimes they’d start straight away and other times they used to just bang away and it’d frighten the pilot because it didn’t start first time and he’d switch the engine off. Which was unfortunate because by this time the petrol in the intake had caught light, and naturally the petrol, as it was an updraught carburettor, underneath, the petrol used to run down and drip out into the pour, under the aircraft under, the engine. The first thing you could do was to take your cap off, hold it over the air intake, signal to the chap on the trolley act and tell the pilot to start the engines again to suck the flames up into the engine and you finished up with a burnt cap! Oh dear, dear, dear. Right well.
DB: I’ll just stop it for a minute while you think about it.
BL: Our aircraft was mostly, being A-Able it was mostly the flight commander’s aircraft. Consequently, If they had a special job for it, SOE or a special person, man or woman, to be dropped they usually got the aircraft. Right. One day we was on the airfield and there was an aircraft landed, two actually, they were Flying Fortresses. The Flying Fortresses they landed, came round the perimeter track, parked somewhere on the field, and one of their coaches pulled up. The coach, it come from the hospital which is the Cheltenham, there’s a hospital, American, across over at Cheltenham, and they’d come to see some of their buddies that been, were convalescing there, but some of the ground crew that used to fly with them, they came along and they started walking round the aircraft. So, one of them came, coloured chap, big feller and two others, came round and stood in front of our Stirlings and looked up and said: ‘By Gal!’ he said. ‘What an aircraft,’ he said, ‘Look at the size of it, beat Flying Fortresses hands down. Look at the size of it, what a babe, look at the size of that.’ He said, ‘how many guns in it?’ When we told him four, he turned round and said, ‘four,’ ‘yeah and they’re at the back.’ So he walked, they walked round and had a look. He said, ‘I can’t get over the size, can I go inside and have a look?’ So I said, ‘yeah, I’ll come in with yer.’ Cause I didn’t know what, you know, what they might do, so we went into the aircraft and when we come out the aircraft after he’d had a look round, he came out, put his hand in his pocket, he said, ‘‘ere, have a cigar,’ he said, he put his hand in his pocket, ‘have two!’ Right, that’s that one. A couple of days later we had a fighter, American Mustang, came round the airfield, landed. I think there was an officer, colonel, somebody, evidently come to see his friend or whatever, and this was his aircraft, he parked it up. They’d been doing some work on the perimeter track and they’d dug up part of it, not a very big hole, but big enough, and when he came back, he got in his aircraft, taxied round the perimeter track and unfortunately very, very similar to the Stirling, he’s tail down, when you’re taxying with your tail down you can’t see over the nose, so you have to look side to side, and he goes, taxies you know, from side to side around the perimeter track. Unfortunately for this officer, found where they’d dug the ‘ole! And he ended up in the hole. Well, you know, his propeller got smashed [unclear]. It stopped the engine naturally, so didn’t catch fire or anything. But when we went and got him, walked over to him to see if he’s all right, he said, ‘my god,’ he said, ‘I’m in bloody trouble now!’ he said, because he shouldn’t have been there. [unclear] And that was it, but I don’t know what happened to it. I think the Americans sent a motor and got it out. We had to get it out of the hole with our Coles crane and they come and collected it, took it away. We actually got on very well with all the aircraft, all the aircrew on it and they were pals with everybody. They was, had, some of them had got themselves a second-hand car but they didn’t get enough petrol to go with it and always needed a bit of petrol. And unfortunately, we could only let them have a hundred octane, but, what we used to do, we used to give them some petrol in a car, in a can and we’d water it down with some oil, not too much: it smoked, smoked out the vehicle, and we used to do that, we used to help them out a little bit on that aspect, you know. And every now and again you’d get somebody would come out with the glider pilots, they’re going out for the night, some of them used to have some big motors. So I said don’t expect, I’m not trading this aircraft for your flippin’ car, no way! So, but no matter who you were, I won’t mention the names, but I used to have the flight commander and it was from right the way down, if they wanted help that way, I used to climb up on the undercarriage sometimes if I knew that the aircraft still had to be refuelled and drain off five gallons and put it in the motor, you know for them [unclear]. Might be their last night. So, that’s, that’s the way I helped them. They were very good to us, they used to save all their flying rations if they didn’t want them. They used to have nuts, raisins, chocolate, different things, sweet cigarettes, corporal, sweet caporal cigarettes, lucky strike, you name it, anyway it was all the, they used to come because they used to be a mixed crew. We always had a mixed crew, I don’t think I ever had an all RAF crew. And anyway, that was my way of helping them and they used to take us out every so often, and say meet you down the pub tonight boys, we’re not on our ops, all right, all right, meet you down the pub, and they used to buy us drinks and give us all their rations, throw ‘em on the table and we have, have a good night out really. Yes, or, or, they used to say right off tonight, all together, anybody fancy going to a dance in the village or wherever, and they used to take us out there and it was very nice and handy because at least we had an officer and they were allowed out after midnight and they used to, can be driving the car come through the main gate and the corporals look down look in and say Flying Officer or Pilot Officer so-and-so and company and right through. [Laughter] It used to happen quite a lot actually. That one. One day we was waiting for something to happen, as it’s coming, certain parts of, area of the, Europe, were being, after D, right, after D-Day we had a, quite a few places and things to do that we was working every day, doing all sorts of things, we was taking more troops, dropping supplies, dropping petrol for cars in five gallon drums, for lorries I meant, and tanks and that. We were very, very busy all the time, twenty four hours a day of doing work, stuff like that. Most of, some of them was on the dropping more specialist troops to areas that were needed out there and also arms and ammunition. The ammunition they didn’t have enough of that type of ammunition, that went over as quickly as possible. [Whispered] I’d love another one. One day we was er, decided to go, we had a day off, we did meet a couple of WAAFS, there were three of us: three men, three WAAFs. We all had our hopper bikes and decided as it was a beautiful day we decided to go down and see the river Severn because it wasn’t far from the river Severn. So we went down there, spent the day down there, you know like visiting the pub and one thing and another, and unfortunately one of the WAAFs got a little bit tipsy and on our way back to the camp, on our way back to the camp it was an uphill struggle on the hill. Got over the hill alright, she was a bit slow, but as she got over the hill it gathered momentum, unfortunately the, the road was resurfaced, just been resurfaced. And the resurface them days was tar spray and sprinkling of small shingle on the top and a quick roll over with the steam roller. Well, this poor girl got going so fast she couldn’t guide her bike properly, whatever, her mind wasn’t looking straight over, but over she went and she landed on her knees, tore her knees and laddered her stockings or her legs, oh, what a shame, you know she was in a bit of a state, so we was just walking back to the camp. I’m going to tell you now about our times when we used to go home on leave. Ah, well, we didn’t always get a ticket to go on leave. We always had to jump ship you would call it. Well, we used to have a chap who was very keen on talking to us chaps because he worked in the Orderly Room so no excitement in the Orderly Room, [laugh] no excitement in the Orderly Room so what he did, he used to come with us, you know, come to the NAAFI with us, and talk to us and ask us different things in the RAF as you do, so I said we, I want to go home on leave, for a couple of days, is any chance of giving me a 295, he said yeah, will you stamp it for me? Which he did. Right, right our crew, oh dear, our crew crashed at, in France on D-Day, or just prior to D-Day and we had a new flight commander arrive, Squadron Leader Bunker. Now Squadron Leader Bunker, he’s a legend. He joined the RAF on a short term and in just 1938, 1938 and became a pilot when war broke out and he flew right up until 1945, about 1945, 46 some time there, I haven’t got the correct time, date. And he was flying back, he was, took over from 620, 190 Squadron lost their flight, their wing commander so as he was a squadron leader in, on 620, they made him up to the wing commander. He took charge of the squadron and he was taking, they were doing the same ops as we were and he was flying cans of petrol to Belgium and bringing back prisoners of war, ex-prisoners of war to England and landing them at Oadby in Leicester, in Surrey, Sussex or Surrey, Oadby. Now when he landed there, they are still on operation and they are helicopters, large helicopters are flying from there, on the same station. Now when he landed there, there was a two, the Stirling had two tail wheels, one tail wheel was punctured and they decided to take off from there to go back to Dunmow because they had something on at Dunmow and one aircraft started going along the runway, the wheel, because the tyre was flat, shimmied and as it was going along it was shimmying and it eventually it caught light, because of the heat, and naturally he didn’t know this and when he put his undercarriage up, the two tailwheels went up into the aircraft at the back. The rear gunner was still in his cockpit and the tail of the aircraft caught fire and exploded and blew the turret out and killed the air gunner as he hit the ground. The pilot then couldn’t control the aircraft and it was flying towards the village of Windlesham and he saw a, saw a games field and decided to make for that, so he made for that and could only put the aircraft down because it was aflame, he put the aircraft down in the playing field thus missing that town of Windlesham. And the town people put up and erected a big [emphasis] memorial for him and his crew, a man, Bill, ex-RAF man, decided to erect this memorial and did a lot of work for it, to this, and also he wrote to the church in Windlesham, commemorating this memorial, wrote to the church and asked them for permission to fly the RAF ensign at the church tower every year on the same day that the accident happened, and this was granted, and from that day to this on the anniversary the flag flies from the mast. Now I attended the memorial service and it was well attended by the CO of Oadby and other officers and representatives and included, his son invited me to the funeral and Janet and I we went down and we attended the funeral and we went to see a service in the Clement Danes church in Oxford Street, and we attended a service in there and also a meal of, in the – where the hell was it – we attended a meal in the Royal Courts of Justice across the road to commemorate it. Right, our next trip was to Fairford, the adj, the crew and the whole squadron moved from Fairford to Great Dunmow. Now when we got to Great Dunmow that was a different kettle of fish because Great Dunmow was built by the American Air Force, air force construction gang. Now they had aircraft built and up and running before we got there. So quite a few roads, pathwords, pathways were built, the only problem when we first landed, we found that their toilet arrangements were quite different from ours. When went to the toilets when we arrived there we naturally wanted to go to the loo, we arrived there we walked into the toilets and there was a row of WCs, all in a row, no doors, no particulars, nothing. So we looked at one another and thought what the hell’s going on here? There was urinals there, but there was, on the toilet, WCs no doors, nothing, no privacy whatsoever. So, we was all looking at one another and laughing. Eventually someone said what the hell is this all this about? You know. So I turned round and kept a straight face, and said well you know the Yanks, said they like to read their comics, I said and when they sitting next to each other and reading their comics and they’re nearly finished, if they finished the comic they hand it to the next one, I said and they pass the comics along. [laughter]. Right, that’s the end of that one. The tin huts were the same huts as the others. The name on our door was called the gold brickers, that was painted on our doors and I understand, I don’t know if it was correct, but I understand the gold brickers was the lazy buggers, so I thought well maybe it suits us, I don’t know, but it wasn’t a bad place, but we never got a lot of coal for our winter when we stayed there for winter, so we had to end, we end up robbing, doing a little bit of getting some from somewhere else. So the WAAFs were fairly close, but their coal was behind big wire cages, so one winter we was in this winter there and I said well we’ve got to get some more coal lads, we’ve got no coal, flippin’ freezing in here, we been freezin’ all day out in the snow and that so we decided to do a recce and a raid, so we went out about five of us, and we went out and we were creeping in the dark, behind the WAAF huts. I climbed over first, climbed over the wire fence and kept sorting out the small enough bits of coal that I could throw over the wire, ‘cause they were a bit heavy, I’m not a weightlifter. So course we did it, and we got enough coal to go back, when I climbed back over, to last us for about a fortnight. So there we were, happy as pi – as hell. The next time we decided, there was a corporal, a corporal fitter, his name was Corporal Chatterjee. Now he was an Indian unfortunately, for us, but he liked it in our billet so he stayed, and he picked a bed near the fire which annoyed some of us, right, so we was, had to have another raid so I said to the corporal, ‘we’re going to get some more coal.’ ‘Good.’ he said, I says, ‘and you’re coming with us. So he said, ‘I can’t, I’m not coming I can’t do that, I can’t come and start stealing.’ I said, ‘if you want to warm yourself up mate, you’re coming with us or you’ll make things very awkward.’ So anyway we decided that he was going to come, and he certainly had to come, he gotta come or else. Anyway, we was finished going out, in the dark, and it had been snowing hard all day and the WAAFs had slit trenches outside their huts and course the snow had blown and filled the slit trenches up, so we didn’t know where the slit trenches were, you where they were. So away we went, once again I hiked over the fence, started throwing the coal and we got enough coal out over the other side, then we picked it all up, put it on our shoulders, walked it back through the camp and all of a sudden one of the WAAFs for some reason or other, because the lights was on in the hut, she opened the door, out the back, opened this door, lights shot out the door and silhouetted the corporal and me with these flippin’ great lumps of coal on our shoulder and she let out one horrific scream. Well the corporal started to run, not following the footsteps that we took going and went straight down the flippin’ slit trench, dropped the lump of coal, didn’t know what to do, he’s screamin’ his head off down the slit trench, cause it came up just to his armpits and he’s screaming out: ‘get me out of here, get me out of here!’ So I said, ‘hold on a minute, no, no, no, no. Give us the coal first.’ ‘No, no coal, no coal.’ So I said, ‘we want the coal first or you don’t get out. Get out yourself,’ so otherwise they’ll know that we been and pinched the coal. So anyway, eventually he give us the coal, I picked it up, we yanked him out and away we went back, he says, ‘no more, me no more do that, no.’ But that was a funny thing that night. Anyway, stop that one, that’s it. Next time we wanted some coal, we asked one of the chaps that, we was getting a bit low over the WAAFs quarters so we decided to raid the officer’s quarters. So the officers quarters was up on a bit of a hill and we decided to go there [unclear] we thought we’d take, ask the chap going on leave that used to drive, one of the – what was it – one of the Crossley, one of the lorries that used to tow the gliders, it was a Crossley, had no, nothing on the back only the tow bar, and it used to have a big galvanised tank in, on the back with concrete in it to hold the weight down, keep the back of the Crossley. Right, so this time we’re gonna go with this. Can we borrow your Crossley? He said ‘I’m going home on leave for the weekend, do what you like,’ he said, ‘but don’t mess about with it,’ he says, So I said we’re just going to get some coal. So away we went. There was the driver, was the Scotsman, and myself and somebody else sitting in the Crossley in the front, and away we went. We went round there, found the coal, got into position, got as much coal that we could get that night in there, and we’re driving this chap used to drive the oil bowsers driving the Crossley, he’s driving back. Well as we come away from the officer’s quarters goes down a hill swung round sharply to the right, there was a tree on the left hand side with a branch had come about three feet off the floor, off the floor and went across towards the road. Well, the Crossley’s quite wide and he’s driving this thing down there and he’s hit the corner of the cab on the near side, corner of the cab, lifted the cab up nearly off the chassis and smashed the, smashed the window, the windscreen. Anyway, we carried on going, we got back to the camp, we emptied the coal, emptied the coal, went and saw the chap who’s nearly ready to go out of the camp on leave, he’s dressed now, and said ‘ere we’ve damaged your lorry. ‘If you don’t tell me,’ he said, ‘go and get rid of it, I don’t know nothing about it.’ So anyway, they got a bike, put a bike on the back, drove the motor over round the other side of the camp, parked it, and then, somewhere, rode back on his bike, and then turned round and didn’t say a word. When the chap come back off leave, looked round says me bike’s not, me motor’s not in the MT, MOT, MT, somebody’s taken it out of the MT. So he went up before the sergeant, and the sergeant said, ‘your motor wasn’t signed in.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘well I’m sure I did, I certainly took it in,’ he said, ‘I might have walked out and forgot to sign it in.’ Anyway the sergeant, it was damaged, it’s smashed. Anyway they had a court, not a court martial, they had an inquiry into it, and it finished up they said that he didn’t sign it in, they couldn’t find any record so he’s guilty and he got seven days jankers and a seventy pound fine. Now, he used to, he used to run bets on the camp so he wasn’t worried about the fine, that’s all right said he was just upset about the jankers! Where the Scotch bloke that done the job, he got caught, you know, they found him and he got five days in the cookhouse. [laughter] He said I wouldn’t have minded if I’d got the fee he says cause I had the money to pay for it! And then we had sailors on our camp to help us out and this chap that was, used to sleep next to me. Well I went, he went on leave and I was going out one night, when he went on leave, and when I looked for my shoes, I couldn’t find me shoes, I only could find me boots, two pair boots, I had pair shoes, and I looked searched everywhere tipped every place upside down. Anyway, it finished up, his kit bag was next door to me. So I looked in the kit bag and there they were in his kit bag. So I went to the MPs, and I says look, my shoes are gone. I said ‘I believe,’ I said ‘I believe,’ I didn’t say I know, said ‘I believe that this chap has gone home on leave, he was an electrician, he went home but I believe he might have gone home wearing my shoes.’ So they said all right we’ll send a couple of our MPs round. Tipped his kit out and there’s my shoes, they yours, I says yeah, they’re my shoes so I said, so he said put it all back and when he come back we’ll have him. So he turned round, he got away with it, because he turned round said he didn’t know they was in there, someone must have put them in there and that was it. We was at the camp one day, at Dunmow during the day about four o’clock, and all of a sudden there was a tannoy message: “All personnel report, 620 Squadron report to the, report to their aircraft immediately.” So we all went down there, my one was well out the way, my one was AA, was at the front. The bomb dump was down where, when we got there BANG! Thought what’s that, you know, then there was another bang, a bang went up, as it went up this one exploded in the air. The bomb dump was alight, yeah, the bomb dump was alight. So we had to get down to the bomb dump as quickly as possible and get the aircraft out the way because there was the, there was the stock, so we all raced as fast as we could to where the bomb dump was. I got into one aircraft, cause there was no one there at the time. I got in there, started the engine up on the internal batteries, started the engines up and the four engines was running and by that time the pilot came to the aircraft and he, I got out and he taxied it across to the middle, middle of the airfield out the way. In the meantime these flippin’ bombs were going off! So of course I went back, after that I rode me bike back to my dispersal to wait and see what else had happened and the fire engine from Dunmow, ding-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling, come flying round the corner, came on to the airfield, on to the perimeter track, drove round, got as far as my aeroplane, stopped, got off the fire engine, and they’re looking, and they’re going boom, boom, these bombs are going off and incendiaries are flying all over the place, all of a sudden I suppose they thought got to go and sort this out if we can and they took off and went down there. I don’t remember much about it after that, you know. We just went and sat in the flight office, was down in, down a hollow, that was what we had to do. Time I was on night duty on night flying, I was, my turn to see the aircraft off, me and the rigger. So we went, you know, got go down there. I used to have a Claud Butler bike, a racing bike and of a night time I, if I had time off, I used to put me shorts on, go climb over the fence with me Claud Butler bike which I could lift up, light, and go for a ride round the country lane and that was me, that was a bit of my pleasure. Well this night, this day, I go, I thought, the hopper bikes were heavy, so I got me Claud Butler, got it out, got on to it and pedalled going down to the aircraft. Get out to the aircraft, course as I said my perimeter track went round, and as it went round, it went down to my first one, was there, so I’m going round, and I’m going, now Claud Butler was racing bike had one break, fixed wheel, one brake and a nipple on the end of the brake cable, so I comes flying down and when I got to, saw it on the aerodrome, there, saw it, the four engines was turning over. Well I’m, now I’m the engine mechanic, so evidently some, you know, the flight engineer probably, the skipper said start it up and the rigger, because this time I’m bike, cycling like mad, I’ve swung into the put me front brake on and the nipple on the cable broke and I’m going, I went straight underneath the props on the starboard side, straight under the props, and nearly hit the tail plane that sticks out the back, there at the back, and everybody sort of looking up and sort of saying bloody hell, good job it wasn’t a Halifax. Talking about my Claud Butler, I was on duty crew another night in the Control Tower and I was it was our turn to look after any aircraft that was coming in, you know, or what, we’re sitting in there, in the Control Tower, nothing happening, and all talking there and all of a sudden we had a call: there was some Halifaxes that couldn’t land at their own base so they were being diverted to us. So the flight control came down, says right, we need somebody at the far corner of the second runway, we shall bring the aircraft on behind the follow me car, behind on the perimeter track, that person on the end there will turn the aircraft down on to the spare runway. We want another person at the end of the spare runway, not too close to the main runway that’s being used and stop the aircraft there and park ‘em one after the other so you know, you had time to come round and do it. So of course I went, I said I’ll go to the end of the runway, send ‘em down. My mate says I’ll park them. So I said right and away we did it. So I rode me Claud Butler round, got the end of the runway, we parked my bike on the end, on the far side of the runway because the aircraft are turning just before it, and I stood there and said right, once I’ve stopped them, turn the aircraft with torches and then went like this and he could see the one up the end of the runway and he’ll follow them. I come to the last, I come to the last aircraft and as fast as I walk backwards, he followed me, so I turned this torch, turning me right hand torch as hard as I could so that he’ll turn round: still following me, so I thought he’s not going to do it. So I stopped him, walked over to the fuselage, bangs on the back door, somebody came and answers me at the back door, he said, ‘what’s the problem?’ So I said: ‘The problem is, the pilot is not turning to starboard, he’s got to turn now, lock his starboard wheel and rev his prop to get round otherwise he’ll miss going down the runway, right you got that?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Right.’ I walk back to where I was, I was standing there like a twit and the pilot signalled to me forward so that one’s solid, this one this way, you know. He started to turn, started to turn, eventually he come round and he turned, eventually he comes round and turned and I’ve gone like that and away he’s gone. The follow me motor was behind and he said you want a lift back to the control tower? So I said no I says that’s all right I’ve got me bike here, I’ll ride over. Went over to pick me bike up and the flippin’ aircraft had run over it, he’d run right over the bike solidly and even clipped the pedals. It’s a wonder it didn’t burst his tyre! Yeah, he squashed it completely, useless, frame, wheels, buckled, the lot! So I had to pick the bike up, walk back, walk about what, three quarters of a bloody mile it is, ever so sorry, the other side of the runway, and when I got back there, so no good telling anybody as I shouldn’t have had the bike on the runway. So I had to dump that, and that was the end of my bike and my pleasure. We were all standing on the end of the runway one day, on the side and just watching things, aircraft taking off, one after the other, or whatever, and all of a sudden, this by the way is, we have changed from Stirlings now to Halifaxes, very careful. So we’re standing out there, this Halifax starts to take off and all of a sudden he got to the end of the runway and we kept wondering whether he’s going to stop or he’s going to go. Eventually he went, he just took off the floor, went across the runway, went across the runway, over the hedges and then bomb, ploughed straight into the field. We all ran over there see what had happened, didn’t caught fire or anything, went over there see what happened, the pilot’s, all got out, all standing around, pilot’s standing outside of his cockpit, on the wing, standing there, you know, and as we got over there we said to him ‘what’s wrong, what happened?’ ‘Oh!’ he said, the flippin’ ailerons locked on me,’ he said, ‘I couldn’t turn the ailerons he said to take off.’ So, anyway, within that time the engineering officer was turned up in his motor, he came up, walked across, got on, climbed up on the wing, ‘cause by now that’s on the floor, climbed up on the wing, looked into the cockpit and the I’ve never heard an officer swear so much in all me life! He turned round and he said what happened to the bloke, pilot says, ‘the ailerons locked.’ He said, ‘I would think so, they are locked!’ so the pilot said ‘what?’ ‘They are locked.’ What had happened was, on the aileron locks which clip either side of the steering wheel so to speak, on the, I say there should have been a piece of metal painted red and it was hinged on to the aileron lock to stop them going like that, wind blowing them and this piece of rod supposed to go on a seat to stop the pilot sitting on the seat. He supposed to take that, undo this one and that, and take it off, give it to the flight engineer and stow it in the stowing box that was, in a bag, but they were on the [unclear] and this piece was missing. And you know when I said, that whatshisname was in that magazine didn’t they, that was in that magazine so the pilot really [unclear]. Yeah, yeah, I don’t know if he got away with it, I suppose he did really, cause it wasn’t his fault, it was [emphasis] his fault, well it was the engineer’s fault ‘cause the engineer should have should have accepted it, put it in the stowage bag. I’ve already told you where I used to help ‘em out. I’ll tell you a quick one Dunmow, not a nice, not a nice thing this. I used to catch rabbits. What meat was naturally short during the war so naturally if I could get, take home any rabbits or anything like that for my mum, family to eat I would do so, I wasn’t living far from London so wasn’t a problem. So the Americans that were stationed at Dunmow lost a lot of aircraft, there was a great big heap of smashed up Marauders, and every Marauder had an aerial, stainless steel aerial, so that it was made of nice bond wire, so I went round and cut most, a lot of them off. What I did, I made some snares. I made these snares and put them around where these aircraft were damaged because I could see a lot of rabbit runs in there, and see little piles of poo, so I did this, I used to catch quite a few. And if I wasn’t going home I would give them to other men to take home for their parents to eat. So one morning I went round to see if I’d any rabbits in me snares. I come along and all of a sudden I could see in the distance, I thought what’s that, I said the next thing I saw was this dog. It was a grey dog, with, it looked like a Welsh terrier, little curl, grey curly hair. When I got close to him, I said he looked at me, he caught this snare, foot in the snare, and he looked at me and he wagged his tail and I thought well that’s good, he’s a little bit friendly. But he hadn’t been caught for long because he wasn’t rushing around or well, he was just sort of stood there like that, if to say I’m caught, you know. So anyway I approached him, and he was approachable, I just slipped it undone, and when I took his paw out, he just run around as though nothing had happened, he wasn’t hurt at all so I thought well that was brilliant, so anyway it finished up that the armourers, evidently he was lost, the armourers on the site, 620, they took him under their wing and he used to be their dog for all the time they was at Dunmow. But we used to take, take the windscreens out of these aircraft cause they was perfect Perspex. We used to cut them into little hearts, and fire ‘em, we used to cut the crown and the wings out of the button, put ‘em on there, put the hot heat on to it, and that used to melt into it, put a little loop on the end of it and buy a little chain, you know, not gold chain, I couldn’t afford that, but a chain and give it to girlfriend or somebody you met at the dance, you know. They used to like ’em. They used to make all sorts of brooches. Sometimes they used to find a cannon shell that was in all the rubbish, find a cannon shell. They, what they used to do then, used go in the site hut what we used to have was a vice what we used if we have to, you put the shell in the vice, wiggle it a little bit to make it loose, pull the bullet out or the shell out and then tip out all the cordite or whatever was inside, put the cartridge case back in the shell, get a piece, a little bit of wood and a hammer, put it on the end of the firer, give it a hit, fire it off so it made it safe and then we used to make a lighter out of them. That’s it. We used to have one rigger that used to be a very lazy person, and that rigger annoyed me because he was an elderly man, and how he ever passed A1 I shall never know. He used to cut mens’ hair for six p, you know, and I never let him cut my hair I wouldn’t do it if it was tuppence. Because, see he used to annoy me very much, he used to go on the site – he hasn’t got his bowl - the dispersal and he used to walk down the steps used to lead down the bank to the hut at the bottom and come in there and he’d sit, always was a fire if it was cold because they used to be, keep it during the night when they was, keep it alight night and day because you sleep there, wait for the aircraft to come back. Well anyway, this, this morning, he came up and he turned round, and he said, ‘Ah,’ he said ‘bloody hell it’s cold out there, innit, bloody, just come back, bloomin’ cold I don’t fancy going out there.’ I said and because it was warm inside the windows’d steam up, I said, he’s over, greatcoat on, I said he’d wipe his cuff on his hands on his greatcoat and he’d look out the window, he’d say, ‘ah well, airplane’s still there,’ open the Form 700 and sign his signature to say he’d done his DI to his signature. Now that annoyed me, I was always very, very conscientious, you know, people’s lives and that, anyway he’s said oh well that was it and sign it. So of course I went back out the aircraft and there were talking with a couple of me mates out there, we’ve got to teach this bugger a lesson, I said I know what we’ll do, so I went into the aircraft, I got one of the very pistol cartridges. I opened it up, I’m not quite sure of the colour: green, red, blue, or whatever it was, it used to be [unclear] emptied them out, I banged the cartridge on the end like to stop it explode off so it was safe, took these things, took ‘em down to there, I got a brick, a block or something, the old fire was burning merrily there, we got a lump of rope, tied it round the door ‘andle and tied it to something was outside, I can’t think what it was now, we tied it up anyway so he couldn’t open the door, and there’s only one door and we climbed up on to the top of the – what’s the name – on the nissen hut, cause you can, you could walk up ‘em. We used to have rubber soled boots on the aircraft, we used to walk up there, although it might be bit dodgy, and I got the pellets, dropped these pellets down the flue and put the brick on the top. Well! The colours that came out the top of the flue, where it’s coming out, shooting out all different colours, smoke, filled up the place, he’s screaming his head off in there. We had to let him out because the place got so full of smoke. Terrible it was, yeah. But he wasn’t a very happy bunny, yeah. [Laughter] One more, Sue, one more, right. We was in the NAAFI, used to be the NAAFI, Sally Ann it was, Sally Ann used to come round the dispersal and used park out underneath the wings of the two aircraft at the dispersal where the flight office was and see they used to open it up and sell the old tea and buns. We was there one day and the tanker driver pulled up under the wing, pulled up under the wing of the aircraft there, sitting there, talking, they was all talking round, eating and drinking and all of a sudden is that a flame in your cab? And he looked, he run round, he opened the door and somehow there was a flame in there, whether it come in from the engine or not we don’t know. So of course everybody’s running round like, there’s two thousand gallon tanker underneath the aircraft, so anyway, one of them went, we got fire, only a few fire extinguishers, we got it there, of course they got these fire extinguishers and one’s firing it through one door, and the other one firing through the other door and they’re getting smothered in foam! You know, anyway, it didn’t take long, I don’t know what it was, but it didn’t take long, whatever it was, it went out with the two fire extinguishers. All of a sudden, because it was an emergency they rang the fire brigade at our station, so of course they came flying round the corner, yeah, and the tanker driver got his tanker out just in case it sparked off again, backed it out away from the aircraft and these firemen on the cab, come flying round, jump off the fire engine, grabbed hold of some axes and went round, one opened the door, the other one opened the other door and two of them smashed in the front windscreen, ahhh, sorry, craaaash! Crash, windscreen. The tanker driver says, standing there he said, ‘what you do that for?‘ He said ‘well there’s a fire in the cab.’ He said ‘bloomin’ well we’d already put the fire out! What you do that for?’ Talk about cases caught, that’s it. First of all my overseas trip. The aircraft, the sixth airborne was going to Palestine to quell the vision, the trouble between the Jewish rebels, outburst, call them rebels because that’s what they were. As far as I’m concerned I’m very annoyed because when the Polish war was, when the war was started it was the Polish Jews and everything on that, I know Hitlers’ condemned the Jews, done all this against the Jews, here we are out there, it wasn’t the Jewish population’s place or the Arabs, it was split between them at the time and it was going all right. Somebody said that it belonged to the Jews and the Jews started to, causing trouble, and people were getting shot and injured by the Jewish population, that was the bit that got me. So I wasn’t very happy, against them, I’m not against the Jewish population, but I’m against them attacking us, which helped them as best we could and lost a lot of lives doing it. Right, getting back to this one then. We sailed out of, went first of all climbed on the trains and we went up to Liverpool, right, we thought well that’s it. So we was there at Liverpool, we was there for just before Christmas and they sent us home on leave for two days at Christmas. We’re back all the way up there, then they decided they weren’t going to let us sail from there, we’re going to sail from Southampton, so we’re all the way back to Southampton and we caught the Capetown Castle. Now the Capetown Castle was a beautiful [unclear] it was a Castle Line boat, and it was beautiful, it held the Blue Riband for the crossing to South Africa and England, so no, no never had an escort of any sort, mind you it didn’t need it at the time, but it never did have an escort during the war when it made journeys because it was too fast for submarines, they couldn’t catch it, so they didn’t need escort. Right, so we went over there and ended at Port Said. Landed at Port Said and we got off there, marched along the ruddy railway track looking for the passenger train. What passenger train? No passenger train. Cattle trucks! So we had cattle trucks, so we all had to climb on board cattle trucks, put our gear on the cattle trucks, and sit there with the doors open with your legs hanging out the door. Well I remember my dad telling me this about the wogs they’re right rogues and that, I had a cigarette, so I’d just lit this cigarette, and it was just lit so it was a whole cigarette more or less, and one of these chaps came along in his night shirt, turned round and looked at me, leant up towards me cause I’m sitting higher than him on and with me feet out the train, and he turned round, and he wanted me to light his cigarette, so he give a little tug, give a little tug on my cigarette wanted to sort of take it, making out it was too hard to light his cigarette so I let my cigarette go like a fool and off the rat he ran with my cigarette and I thought, oh Bill you’ve arrived. That’s that one. One of our things we had to do, when you have a kit bag you have a kit bag lock and if anybody knows a kitbag lock is a piece of brass or whatever, a straight piece of metal on a hinge and one piece that looped over, which you hole, put it one through the other and padlock it. Well, of a night time, we used to have to padlock our rifles or our guns or whatever we had, to the bed, through the springs of the bed, and put it through the trigger guard and then padlock it, so that nobody sort of blow in your face if you like, make you roll over and take your gun from underneath yer. So that was a bit of a bind because it was a bit of a bind because personally when I went on board the boat I had a sten gun. When I got off the boat I had a rifle. So there I am with sten gun pouches, with sten gun ammunition in it and when I got off the boat I got a rifle with no nothing, no ammunition whatsoever, no spare whatsisname. Anyway so they took, the first couple of days they took ‘em all, everything off us, but then again they handed them back to us, I still got a flippin’ rifle. Anyway, I used to, when we went on guard, and we used to have to go on guard, the only problem with the RAF, I found from the beginning, and the only bones I had to pick with them was, if you was on a squadron you was a lodger, when you went on a main station, all the people that was lodgers, the squadrons, they had to do all the guard duties, all the fire picquets, all the rough and tumble but when it come to night flying we had to do that as well. We had to do night flying, we had to do duty crew, things like that, there wasn’t a lot. Now I was against that all the time, that was my bugbear with the RAF. Right, now when we come to the RAF station, we come to there, we used to have to go on lorries from the main camp out to the dispersals and what they used to have was a thirty hundredweight lorry, a few seats in the back of that and behind that was towed a trailer and it was like the trailers you see the Germans carted round and the trailers sitting in the back with the seats running side to side and people sitting there with their guns in the middle. So we used to have to go out and that was, but then put your gun somewhere and start doing your work during the day. That the toilets, now there was something you’d never heard of far as I’m concerned. They were built of brick, they were built of brick, they had some sort of an L shaped sort of urinal wall, with the urinals on the side, you walk in, walk past that and you go in and round the centre of the thing, was a centre wall built with seats the same height as you would normally get it, but between them was set, going towards the centre with a, a pipe comes up and through the middle which vented it below, below and when you went to sit in there, there was a piece of timber used to come down on top of ‘em. When you wanted to go to the toilet you used to have to pick up this seat have one hand behind your back to hold it up. And when you get up it automatic flop down, to stop the flies. But it doesn’t stop the flies. Nothing stops the flies. So anyway one night I went round in to the toilet, my dad, you know was telling me bits about different things, and I’m in the loo and I’m sitting there, thinking of England and all of a sudden, I had an American torch at that time it was an UA, American military torch, and it was one that stood up, and it had a clip on the side and the light faced horizontally at the top, very bright, a lovely light and I used to take this torch out, put it on the seat side, and it used to, sorry, it used to shine up on the white wall and light the place up a bit, so not only I got the benefit, so did other people. Anyway, I’m sitting there one night, and it wasn’t long, I think it was about fourth or fifth day I was out there, I was sitting there, no one else in the bloomin’ place, all of a sudden sominck went past me quick [whooshing sound] oh some twit had dressed a sheet over him and run past, run round, round the toilet, run round, anyway it made me jump. I jumped up, the seat automatically flaps down, hits me torch, lost me torch down the toilet, gone down the pit. I’m now in darkness, what’s that in darkness, oh dear, so I lifted the seat up quick and I could see me bloody torch shining down the toilet! I wasn’t half fuming I was, I didn’t half give everybody a row, what you talking about, I don’t know about it, you know, that was it. That was that one. We was, we used to have to do a guard at one time, when it finished the Arab Legion took it over. When that happened that was fine, because sometimes if you was on guard they used to have a wire, a thing where they used to go into the dispersal, the aircraft were parked, they used to have wire going across, barrier and you lift it backwards and forwards. Well if you was on guard you used to have to stand there, well when they used to come and empty these flippin’ toilets, they used to, I’m not going to say how they used to empty it, but they used to, and the cart they used to pour it in to take it away used to dry, used to dry, and shrink, the timbers used to shrink, anyway, it didn’t leak, wasn’t a metal one or anything, one nothing plastic or anything, so it used to be, when it used to stop there, for them to lift the barrier, and we then shut the barrier, pfff, that whatever used to drop out of there it used to smell bloody horrible. Anyway that was that one. That was nasty. The little, another of my quickies. We used to have a little wog, we used to have water bowsers and they used to have taps along the back. Now they used to have big wasps, like, looked like bloomin’ hornets, big black, brown and black, white and yellow ones and they used to go up the tap, when you went out for [unclear] like that, bloody thing would come down the tap wash your mouth round so you had to be careful. But what the little, we used to call them, what the little wogs used to do, because they used to come on to the and sell you oranges and things like that, or scrounge what they can, and he used to come on and what they used to do, they used to get a matchbox, and they take their skull caps off - oh I’m sorry I’ll have to stop this - they used to grab their skull caps, grab these waspy things, get a matchstick, squash their bottoms out, take out the sting, but we didn’t know that, put them in these matchboxes, and then when it was tea time, or tea breaks, they used to come in, go in the middle of the room, and stand there talking and they’d see these wogs and that they used to undo these match boxes and throw ‘em on the floor. Cor! Can you imagine! Everybody used to run out of there, pick up all their buns and run out of there. Yeah. So that’s what they used to do. That was terrible. I went to Benghazi, when an aircraft landed there because burst it’s tail wheel, I went there to fix an engine, because it only done the tail wheel, somebody slung his sten gun over his shoulder when he was on guard and the bullet, block came down, took one up the spout, went through the aileron so we didn’t know whether it had damaged anything inside the aileron, so we had to send back an aircraft to Palestine for a new aileron. There’s that one. Cairo West, Cairo West we had, I told you about the lady, girls in the swimming pool, I, one minute I’ll get meself sorted in a minute. So I adopted a dog at Cairo West, it was a white, white alsatian, he was a beauty, brown nose, big white, big white, creamy white tail and everything. But he was, had got loads and loads of ticks. So what I had to do I had to go to get some petrol out the aircraft, put it in a can, used to go back up there, and I used to get hold of him, put him between me legs, and I used to get a matchstick, dip it in the petrol, touch the back of the whatsisname and it used to unscrew its neck and drop on the floor and I had to get them out of his ears, and off him wherever I found one, I got one, god rid and lovely. I had him for about two three months and someone come in and said the South Africans have just run over your dog. They used to have a little South African squad on the camp and they’d gone out on the beer that night and come back and they’d run over, went out looking for him and found him, and he was runover him, shame wasn’t it. That was that one. What was the other one? Sandstorm. We had a sandstorm, at, in Cairo West, blew all our tents down, blew our tents down, [laughter] that was a right do that was. Went to Iraq, Habanya, and then on to, oh, can’t think of the other one, Hibanya and the other one, can’t think of it. Went to Nicosia, we took, we used to take boats over to Nicosia, and we used to go over there to service the aircraft, while it was over there for a couple of days and they used to come back and we used to do that regular before leave, you know, you could come home. And that was that one. Well, I don’t think I can, there is others, there’s lots of others bits and pieces that I think’d make you laugh, but I think I’ve said enough. Well I was demobbed in Heliopolis, caught the bus, caught a tram [laugh], caught a boat for going home, it’s called the Duncott Castle. Now that was on the Medlock trip. Now on the Medlock trip they used to go from Mediterranean which was Port Said to Greece, Piraeus and then back again, do that trip then they used to catch a train right through Europe. Except for this time they was told, the crew was told that they was going home to England, but they didn’t, they came back to pick us up, right. So a lot of the crew jumped ship, says right, no, we ain’t going to do it, we’re going home, wo they went home. So when the boat got to Egypt, when we were on board they any RAF personnel is interested in being the ship’s crew, like to come to the ship’s Orderly Room we will sort a job out for them. So the electricians went in to the electricians, engineers were whatever wherever, I said well and my mate, come on let’s go, got be good. So of course we went there and when we got there we were made waiters, stewards, made stewards, looking after the senior NCOs and WAAFs, in there, and they were on board ship, they used to get special, waited, others used to have to queue up. Anyway, so that was it, so we went there. When we got there we used to say how do we wash in the morning, can’t get washed, oh use the crew, you’re crew now. We didn’t, when it was deck drill we used to be ‘we’re crew not RAF’, and when we were crew we are RAF, anyway we done all right out of that cause we used to, sugar was on the table, and we used to keep filling up bags of sugar, putting in the boot, we come back with sugar, tea, coffee you name it, plus the fact you used to have egg and bacon as much as you want in the morning, we did all right. We used to, we didn’t have to but went up in to the crew’s quarters to have a wash and shower, where the other blokes didn’t have any. Decent toilets sit on a what they say sit on a thing, water used to run through like that, sometimes somebody would light a bit of paper, put it in the water while we’re sitting there! Anyway that was that. Right. Now, when they, we finally came home, we found we got paid for it as well, they had to pay us, they had to pay us. We went to the, this, what they call it. I finally got demobbed at Preston. I said to the, it was, 1947 Winter, 6, 47 winter, February, beginning of February I think it was and I went to, I said to them right, they said throw your greatcoats over there, I said hold on I said, I think we can buy our greatcoats, I said I think I’ll buy mine I ain’t going out in that in just a mac and a suit, you know. So he said throw your greatcoats over there, so I said can’t we do it? No. They refused to let us buy our greatcoats, so we had to go home in the flippin’ whatsisname, freezing cold. Anyway the next thing I knew I tried for a job, tried for different jobs. I tried for a job in the gas company, cause I didn’t want to go in the building trade ever, tried for a job in the gas company, in the turbine house. I kept falling asleep, cause we did the night time, you know, and you couldn’t fall asleep cause there used to be a water tank used to have to keep filling up to keep the turbine working, the turbine an I keep falling asleep. I’m packing it in, I can’t have this. So I packed it in, that’s what I thought. I went down the labour exchange to see if they’d got anything and they said we’ve got a job at Ford’s. So funnily enough they let me pack it in there, so I went to Fords, got a job on the Ford V8 engines. But it’s not what I wanted, I wanted to be in the engineering centre, I wanted to be in the machine shop, want to be in the machine shop, says yes, okay, got the job, went there. Next thing I know I’m being traipsed along to a bloody whatsname line, Ford V8 assembly line, putting pistons in the piston block, and that was everything I don’t want take day. I see you ever see Charlie Chaplin in Modern Time, well I was in there like that, I shut me eyes go to sleep and I could see it, you know, monorail. Anyway, I finally finished up, I did leave. I said machines were made to help man and not make him a slave, I’m out of here and you can do what you like. Well anyway, he didn’t take any notice and I finally went back in the building trade and I stayed in that until I retired.
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Title
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Interview with William Joseph Longhurst
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Denise Boneham
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-04-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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ALonghurstWJ180407
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Pending review
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01:35:34 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Cyprus
Egypt
Great Britain
Libya
North Africa
Cyprus--Nicosia
Egypt--Cairo
Egypt--Port Said
England--Bedfordshire
England--Essex
England--Hertfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Surrey
Libya--Banghāzī
Description
An account of the resource
William Longhurst served as an engine mechanic through the Second World War. He was a member of the Hackney Wick Air Defence Cadet Corps before volunteering to enlist in the RAF after his seventeenth birthday. Following basic training at Skegness, technical training was undertaken at RAF Filton. Initially working on Blenheim aircfraft, William went on to gain experience on both Stirlings and Halifax’s. He provides a colourful account of his experiences throughout his service career, which ended when he was demobilised in the Middle East in 1947.
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
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1945
1947
620 Squadron
B-17
Blenheim
fuelling
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
mechanics engine
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
P-51
perimeter track
RAF Cardington
RAF Filton
runway
Stirling
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/942/11301/AMacraeWM161116.1.mp3
84f04c8bc5c17a43471fbbf8d7624df3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Macrae, Bill
W M Macrae
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bill Macrae (1913 - 2019, 3031774, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 104 Squadron in North Africa and Italy.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Macrae, WM
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincolnshire, UK and it’s part of the Oral History Programme. I’m the interviewer. I’m John Horsburgh and today I’m interviewing Bill Macrae. Bill was a pilot and he served with 104 Squadron RAF and he was flying Wellington bombers. And he was part of the Desert Air Force. North Africa and Italy campaigns. So, it’s a very interesting story. The interview is at Bill’s home in Chatswood in New South Wales and today is the 16th of November 2016. So, good afternoon Bill. I’m very pleased to be interviewing you for this. Why don’t we start at the start? The, your date of birth and where you were born and we’ll take it from there.
BM: I was born on the 14th of January 1913 at a place called Coraki which is up the far north coast near Lismore. On a farm. And my earliest memory was of the end of the First World War when late one evening a man came galloping down the main road singing out, “The war is over. The war is over.” And I remember very well also when all the soldiers came back where they put on a big return party at the local showground. And I remember there one of them picked me up and threw me up in the air and I boasted about that ever since. That’s the first time I was ever airborne. After that I went to a local school. About ten pupils in it I think, and teaching was rather elementary I suppose but we got the basics. And from there we moved to another farm up at Kyogle which is about, a town about thirty miles further north. And I was there until we came to Sydney in about 1923 and I went to school in Sydney. And at that time in 1926 or ‘7 the Depression came along and that’s one of my main regrets in life that my father lost his money and he had to go back to the bush and start again. And I had to get a job which I was very fortunate. I had an old uncle who had been in the Bank of New South Wales and he got me a job there. And none of my friends had a job. And people don’t realise how dire the straits of everyone else was in the workforce. I think unemployment was about twenty, twenty five percent. And in those day there were very few women working. But I remember the, I started work in Sydney in March 1929 in a two storey building in George Street with a wooden wire cage lift with a bit of rope used as a thing to lower it up and down. And I worked there for about three or four or five years and in 1937 the bank decided to send me to London for three years. Which was one of the greatest breaks I’ve had in life. And the general manager of the bank was Sir Alfred Davidson and he had the idea I think that the, a lot of young fellows in the bank were hillbillies. It would be a good thing if they had a bit of overseas experience. So he sent quite a few of us over there which I think was a very expensive exercise and which rather got him out of favour with the directors. He was wasting money on us really because we went over there completely unsupervised and we sort of had a tourist time. Not having to do much hard work.
JH: Meanwhile Bill was there a sense that there was trouble? When you went over there there was trouble brewing in Germany?
BM: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. I realised that the, there would be a war and I decided at that stage to learn a bit of German. So I went along at night to learn German. And I got to the stage I could understood Hitler’s ravings. And I also went over to Germany on holidays in 1939 and lived with a German family in Munich. And I gathered there that the Germans were right behind Hitler because he gave them hope. As the lady of the house where I was boarding said, ‘Well, he gave us hope,’ and said, ‘Otherwise we were completely —’ the biggest mistake of the war was the Germans were treated very harshly in the Treaty of Versailles. And they were a very proud race and they had no future. And she said, ‘Hitler gave us a future,’ she said, ‘We didn’t agree with him. And we didn’t like Goering. We thought he was a joke. But he gave our kids Hitler Youth ideology.’ Which was very, very good. The young Germans really impressed me. I mean as a tourist they’d see, if you asked them anywhere they’d not only point it out to you but they’d go with you. And very, very well mannered. And the Hitler Youth I think were completely mislead and indoctrinated by Hitler which was very, very unfortunate. But I liked the young Germans and I loved their singing. I loved their music. And I loved their general method of morality which was very high. Which I’m afraid at that time in England you had the shocker yobbos and the young people there didn’t impress you as opposed to the young Germans. At any rate I backed the wrong horse. I got back to England and a bit later on of course war broke out in September ’39. And I was very sympathetic to the German cause and I very easily could have become indoctrinated by the German ideals I think. At any rate. I decided that war might be over by Christmas so I thought I’d better sort of do something about it. I went along to Australia House and I was very fortunate there to have met a military man. Captain Pollard. He later became quite a good, he later got a knighthood and he later became a general but at that stage he was just a captain in the army.
JH: An Australian.
BM: And he said to me —
JH: Australian army or British army?
BM: Australian army.
JH: Australian army. Yeah.
BM: He was attached temporarily on a course with the British army.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate he said there was no Australian army starting up in London, ‘You’ll have to go back to Australia.’ And he said, ‘But I can get you into the, New Zealand has started a little army. Either that or the British army.’ At any rate I said, ‘You’d better make it the British army,’ because New Zealanders didn’t like Australians very much in those days. And, I don’t know. I don’t think that persists but then I think they regarded us as the descendants of convicts [laughs] They thought they were a bit superior to Australians I think. So, I decided not to join the New Zealand Army. They started an anti-tank regiment there and I saw them in training later on. But I was very amazed then within a matter of two weeks I suddenly got a notice, call up notice to report to Woolwich. The headquarters of the artillery and to join an officer training course for the artillery which, back to when I’d left Australia as I said if I’d ever join the British army and become an officer was completely out of my mind. But at any rate I joined the British Army. Trained with them at Aldershot. South of London there. And graduated as a lieutenant, Royal Artillery in March 1940 and was posted back to Woolwich to go to France. And at that stage we sat at Woolwich for about a month and that was when the Germans attacked in France. And that’s when the Germans sort of over ran the British Army in France.
JH: So you could have ended up on the beach.
BM: Yeah. So I never —
JH: Yeah.
BM: I never got to France. Which was a bit fortunate. But I got posted to a British artillery regiment between Canterbury and Dover. And I was down there during the Battle of Britain and wonderful front line seats of the battles that raged overhead in the air. And that gave me a yearning to get into the air force I’m afraid. And a notice came around in the artillery regiment. They’d decided to start up a thing called a flying OP. Operational Post training for directing gunfire from the air. Then I put my name in and as a result of that I got posted to an air force station at Woodley.
JH: Woodley.
BM: Which was west of London. I remember —
JH: Was that an —
BM: On the day that I —
JH: Yeah.
BM: That day up there it took me all day to get through London. It had been damaged by bombing. But I got to Woodley about dusk. And as I was walking across the aerodrome to go to the mess hut there which was an inn on the edge of the aerodrome a Hurricane was circling around at zero feet. And it finally landed and almost ran into a hedge. And I hurried across and the pilot clambered out and a very strange language, ‘Where am I? Where am I?’ And he was a Pole. He’d been up fighting the Germans and got lost. And as a result of that he stayed with us that night.
JH: Yes.
BM: You can imagine. We heard his whole life story.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he was really angry with the Germans. Really, really angry. And his history was that he’d been in the Polish Air Force and they were knocked out of the war more or less overnight. First when war was first declared.
JH: Well they had cavalry charges, didn’t they?
BM: And he went down. Got out through Italy.
JH: Yes.
BM: To Gibraltar. Then got up back to England. And he trained then with the RAF. And I might say they were a gallant mob the Polish aircrew. Very gallant.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were I’d say better lot of aeroplanes and I remember my rear gunner who had earlier on been posted to a Polish fighter squadron as a gunner in a Boulton Paul Defiant, that was a single engine fighter with a turret just behind the pilot. And he said the pilot there said, ‘If you don’t shoot them down I’ll ram them.’ And he said, ‘He meant it.’ At any rate the rear gunner was very happy to train with a timid pilot like me, I think.
JH: So, Bill, just, just run me through the type of aircraft you flew during training. Did you start with the, for example Tiger Moth?
BM: I trained on a single engine Miles Magister. I remember the first couple of flights very well because it was December then and there was a frost on the ground. You could see the River Thames below. You could see a village there with smoke coming up and you could see Windsor Castle in the background. I said to the, I was flying at the time, he was sitting in front and you communicated by a speaking tube.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I said to him, ‘What a marvellous sight this is.’ I was completely wrapped up in the view. He said, ‘I’ve got it,’ he took over the ruddy plane and put into a dive. Straight down to the village below and said, he said, ‘Do you see that church down there? Do you see the graveyard? If you don’t watch your airspeed that’s where you’ll finish up.’ [laughs] That’s when I found the number one in flying is your airspeed. You’ve got to watch it. Watch it. Watch it. Coming in to land. Taking off. All the time.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: That was my first. And that was the approach I used when I was instructing people flying. That’s the approach I used with them too later on.
JH: It sounds like a very good tip you got there. It stood you in good stead.
BM: At any rate I didn’t, didn’t, wasn’t posted back then to my original place. I was posted back to Woolwich. And I sat there for a couple of weeks. At that stage there were quite a few air raids on London.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I remember there was an unexploded bomb landed on the Woolwich College. We were all evacuated while they dealt with it. They dealt with it by boring a hole in it both sides with a drill clamped to the thing. And then they squirted water in to sort of do the — get rid of the explosive. I remember that quite well.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then I got a posted from there down to the mouth of the Thames to Shoeburyness which was a medium and heavy artillery training regiment. And I trained people there.
JH: Yes.
BM: And got very friendly with the colonel in charge of the place and I told him how I’d love to get in to the bloody air force. I’d already done some flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he said, ‘Well, I’ve got a friend at the war house.’
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he said, ‘If you like I’ll give you a letter of introduction to him.’ And he gave me a couple of days off to go up to the war house which had been evacuated to Cheltenham.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he was there. A series of big huts. They kept all the army records there.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate I went up there and I went out and I met the major man. His friend. And as a result of that I got a transfer to the air force.
JH: That’s marvellous. So did you then —
BM: I must say —
JH: Go to an OTU? Officer training unit in the air force.
BM: No. That was [pause] they sent me to another Elementary Flying Course.
JH: Oh yes. Of course.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But I might say the reason I was popular with the man at Shoeburyness was, well it was on the shore there it was set right the tide would go out over the sand and mud flats as far as the eye could see and then the tide would come in lapping. And I realised no one had been fishing there for years. And there was a boat shed there with a little rowing boat.
JH: Yes.
BM: I got the rowing boat out at the right tide. I went out and I caught flounder by the dozen.
JH: Good Lord.
BM: I was feeding the bloody mess with fish. Rationing was on but not very severe.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I was very popular with the CO as a result of it. That’s how I got into the air force [laughs]
JH: That’s an amazing —
BM: That’s when I got posted to a —
JH: Amazing story. Yeah.
BM: Posted from the place by the sea to, to a college at Cambridge.
JH: Cambridge.
BM: Another. Yes.
JH: In Cambridge or —
BM: In Cambridge. Yeah.
JH: Oh right. Yeah.
BM: Not the airfield.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It was an initial training place where they were marching people around who had just joined the air force.
JH: Yes. A bit of square bashing.
BM: I explained to the man in charge and as a result of that he got me moved from there after a couple of weeks.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But it was a very pleasant interlude. I joined with the elders at the dining mess and I had a very pleasant couple of weeks at Cambridge.
JH: Yes.
BM: Went punting on the Backs and it was very pleasant. At any rate I got posted then to another Elementary Flying School at Peterborough.
JH: Yes.
BM: I went there for another couple of months and from there I was posted to the next stage which was Flying Training School. Elementary to begin with. Then you went to a flying training. If you were going in to bombers you went over, the training place was twin engine planes which — that’s where I got posted.
JH: Yes.
BM: Cranwell had twin-engined Oxfords.
JH: Yes.
BM: Airspeed Oxfords. Which is a very pleasant aeroplane to fly.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I trained on that and a couple of things there that come to mind. When I arrived in 1941, about a week before Whittle’s jet had been flying there for the first time. It was the talk of the station. Highly secret of course. You were told not on any account to mention this but I heard all about it but I actually didn’t see it flying. But that’s where it first flew. It was housed in a hangar away at the far end of the aerodrome and guarded by civilian police apparently. They wouldn’t trust the air force guards for the secrecy angle.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate it took a couple of years for that to be developed. If you read Whittle’s book I think they got the Rover people to start trying to develop it. They didn’t do much and then they handed it over to Rolls Royce and it got going within about twelve months after that. But of course the Germans had a jet flying in 1938 and they had the same experience. They realised that it would take a couple of years to develop and Hitler decided to adapt the scientific wing when it was flying because it would take a couple of years before it could. But as it turned out it took about three years before the Germans were able to develop it. And it took the British about three years too.
JH: So it became operational during.
BM: Before they got [unclear] Yes. Yes.
JH: I didn’t know that. It’s interesting.
BM: But that was one of the highlights of my flying training. Another highlight was I wore the King’s uniform there. The main building at Cranwell, a very long building with a big tower in the middle and a small tower on the two wings either side. We were in the cinema one night and suddenly the whole building shook. Someone said, ‘Oh, we’ve been bombed,’ but we hadn’t been bombed. An old Whitley on night flying had landed and hit one of the little towers at the end of the long building. And the building was on fire. And we all raced out of course and they said, ‘Get the pictures out.’ In the corridors there they had a lot of very valuable pictures which had been evacuated from the National Gallery in London.
JH: Some old Masters.
BM: Yes. Priceless pictures. We carted the pictures from that wing of the building and in the main entrance to the building was the King’s uniform in a glass case. Well, the glass case, we got that open and after the fire was put out we each wore the King’s uniform and saluted each other [laughs]
JH: Well deserved.
BM: But the only survivor of the crash was the rear gunner. The rest of the crew bought it. And the Whitley of course was completely burned out.
JH: Yes. So, Bill, at this stage were you earmarked as a pilot or —
BM: Yes.
JH: Could have been a navigator.
BM: You were earmarked when you went to Cranwell as a bomber pilot. Twin engine training.
JH: Yeah. So you passed all the aptitude and —
BM: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: You were heading in that direction.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And you did a bit of night flying there but you more or less did about fifty or sixty hour a day flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Instructing. And then you did about ten hours night flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which wasn’t a lot.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you didn’t know much about night flying really. And another thing at Cranwell when I was there when they were experimenting with a flare path called sodium flares. Which were a flare path for these I don’t know what sodium meant but there was a thing where you put on goggles and you could see the flares, but you had dark glasses. You couldn’t see anything else. But they never, I had a couple of hours trying to learn night flying on that.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it was abandoned because the main problem as I saw it your goggles fogged up.
JH: Yes.
BM: You were sweating with. And if you tried to land looking —
JH: Yes.
BM: Seeing the flarepath ready for, you were sweating profusely and your goggles fogged up very quickly.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate —
JH: Yes.
BM: I got passed out of that without much trouble.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I was still then in the army. Still wearing the army uniform.
JH: Really.
BM: And I had the job of marching the bloody cadet trainees around. But as a result I was, dined with the officers.
JH: Yes.
BM: And got to know the chief flying instructor very well. And he was going to get me posted on to Stirlings. They were the buzz thing then. An enormous aircraft.
JH: Yes.
BM: Just coming in to service and everyone thought that, you know the war winner. As it turned out the Stirlings were a dead loss.
JH: They were short lived weren’t they?
BM: Short lived.
JH: Yeah.
BM: They took them off operations.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Put them on glider towing and on training. And as an operational plane they had no height. I think they could only get above about twelve thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were slow and cumbersome and the losses were very heavy.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: At any rate from there I got posted to an operational training place. Fortunately it wasn’t a Stirling one.
JH: Where was that?
BM: It was a Wellington one.
JH: Where was that?
BM: At Harwell.
JH: Harwell. Yes. In Essex.
BM: About fifty miles west of London I suppose.
JH: Yes. Harwell.
BM: Very pleasant. It was a grass. No fixed firm runway. It had been a peacetime station. And very pleasant place.
JH: Yeah.
BM: A very pleasant place to live.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the countryside was very pleasant indeed. From there you crewed up. You got your crew there.
JH: You crewed. Tell me about your, your crewing up. How did that happen?
BM: Just put in a big assembly room. They put about a half dozen pilots, about a dozen front gunners, a dozen rear gunners and a dozen navigators, a dozen wireless operators. They let you sort yourselves out and you formed your own crew. I don’t know how. But it wasn’t a very efficient system I think. But I got lumbered — no I wasn’t lumbered. But we got together with a very good navigator. Had been a student, a university student. He was good. We’d got a very good wireless operator. He’d been a boy apprentice in the air force. He was the only sort of skilled member of our crew I’d say. And the two gunners. Front gunner, he was a lorry driver but very little education. But the rear gunner was a very decent English chap. He was well educated and had been working as a welder and his family were, and a reserved occupation but he’d joined up and his family were very annoyed with him for joining the air force. He’d joined up and he’d got posted as a gunner to a Polish squadron where he served for a while and then he got posted to our crowd. That was our crew. They were all English.
JH: Yes.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would I, would I be right in thinking you were the most senior?
BM: I was the most senior.
JH: In terms of age.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah
BM: Both in age. They were all about nineteen or twenty.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I was known as the old man. And we had a second pilot too but —
JH: Yeah.
BM: He was a bit dumb I’m afraid.
JH: Yes.
BM: He was the only chap in the crew that I was a bit worried about. The second pilot.
JH: Your co-pilot. Yeah.
BM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: Was he also the flight engineer in a, on a Wellington?
BM: No. That was later.
JH: Yes. Ok.
BM: That happened when you went to four engines.
JH: Right. Yeah.
BM: But —
JH: Yes.
BM: We trained there and as I say we did day flying. Day flying was very pleasant.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The syllabus was you did five day cross-country flights.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the first one you went with an instructor. The next —
JH: Yes.
BM: Four you did on your own. But you flew across to Northern Ireland, up the west of England. Up the coast.
JH: Yes.
BM: Up around the top of Scotland and down the east coast of England.
JH: Yes.
BM: When the weather was good — very pleasant.
JH: Yes.
BM: And at that early stage of the war you weren’t that well supervised. Later on you had to fly strictly according to time and had to log everything in.
JH: Yes.
BM: You couldn’t deviate or fly low as you could in the days we did.
JH: Yes.
BM: I remember I got a very, very bad sort of introduction to flying with the first cross-country. I went with an operational pilot. He’d just come off operations.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And I remember we flew across the north of Wales there at Northfleet and I remember horses bolting sheds and he said, ‘Make sure if you’re low flying,’ the advice he gave me, ‘Reel in your trailing aerial.’ The wireless op had let out a trailing aerial which was trailing behind about fifty or a hundred feet of wire with lead weights on it to keep it below.
JH: Yes.
BM: He said, ‘If you fly low and you break tiles on a roof with your trailing aerial,’ he said, ‘You’re gone,’ he said, ‘You’re court martialled.’ Low flying was a court martial offence.
JH: Yes.
BM: Quite rightly. It was completely stupid.
JH: Yes.
BM: That was a very, very bad example to give the crew.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Because I’m very sure we saw the result of that at night when you came off the day flying and had a drink with the rest of the crew who’d been flying. I remember one crew reckoned, ‘Oh our pilot flew that low over the sea he was able to stir up the water with his prop tips.’ And a couple of days later they were never heard of again. I’m very sure he hit the water. I don’t know.
JH: Yes.
BM: But that —
JH: Yeah.
BM: A very very bad example.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But quite rightly low flying was a court martial offence.
JH: Yes.
BM: And if you got court martialled and got sent to the Glasshouse it was very hard.
JH: Yeah. You —
BM: Very hard.
JH: Yes. You obviously paid heed to that.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Part of your training operations, of your training flights did you do any of these nickel raids?
BM: No. We didn’t do. We didn’t do any nickels.
JH: In Europe where they were dropping pamphlets and that kind of thing
BM: Almost did. I think the weather was bad.
JH: Yes.
BM: That’s why we didn’t get sent on it.
JH: Yes.
BM: But I remember we, we dropped live bombs at that early stage of the war.
JH: Yes.
BM: Later on you only dropped twelve and a half pound practice bombs.
JH: Yes.
BM: We dropped about half a dozen fifty pound bombs.
JH: Yes.
BM: Out in the Bristol Channel.
JH: Yes.
BM: Now, I remember well the take off with that. It was very calm day and they said, grass aerodrome and they were doubtful whether we should go.
JH: Yes.
BM: And the engines were de-rated a bit on the Wellingtons and there was a line of trees at the other end of the aerodrome. At any rate they finally said, ‘Make sure you get off, lift off early and run up your aircraft back to the hedge at the far end of the field.’ At any rate we had no trouble in getting off the ground.
JH: Yes.
BM: No trouble clearing the tree.
JH: Yes.
BM: Then we weren’t climbing. I suddenly realised I hadn’t raised the bloody undercarriage. That’s when I found out — I thought the second pilot should have picked that up.
JH: Yes.
BM: He should have known that.
JH: Ok. Yeah.
BM: And he should have been checking on everything.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But a couple of other things like that happened without, I never really trusted him.
JH: Yes. Ok. Shall we talk about how you were posted to, to Malta.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would that fit in now?
BM: Well, then we were —
JH: Yeah.
BM: Finished our training there after our night flying.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We just missed out on that thousand bomber raid. We were only half way through our night flying. And that thousand bomber, about a third of the planes there were Training Command. About four or five went from our place.
JH: Yes.
BM: Flown by an operational pilot and instructor with a pupil crew. But the pupil crew were almost finished their night flying.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which we hadn’t done.
JH: Yeah.
BM: So as a result of that I missed that raid.
JH: Can you remember the — I’ll note the date of that? Can you remember the year and date of that bomber, thousand bomber raid?
BM: It was [pause] April. April or May. 1942.
JH: ’42.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Very good propaganda value.
Other: Hitler’s birthday.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then when we finished our training we expected to be posted then to an operational squadron in England. But at that stage Rommel had broken through and was hammering on the gates of Cairo. And they suddenly decided to send a couple of Wellington squadrons out to Cairo. And they gave us a brand new aircraft. And that was the most pleasant flying I’ve ever had. The aircraft was a highly secret one with radar aerials all over it.
JH: Are they the Stickleback?
BM: Stickleback ones.
JH: That’s it. I’ve read about them.
BM: The Mark 8s.
JH: Mark 8.
BM: Mark 8. It was to pick up submarines. Or ships at night. We didn’t know how to operate the radar but at any rate they —
JH: Yeah.
BM: We spent twelve hours flying in the new aircraft. We flew all around England in the brand new aircraft. Very pleasant.
JH: Yes.
BM: And then we got the final word to go to Malta. And we flew down to Portreath down near the south, South West area of London there. The station right on the coast.
JH: In Cornwall.
BM: Cornwall. Yes.
JH: Cornwall. Yes.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We took off from there and they told us to keep well out to sea. Not to get anywhere near the French coast. And to come in late in the day. We took off about seven in the morning I think.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we had no trouble at all. We didn’t sight anything. We kept relatively low. About the best cruising height was about six thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which we were at. And the only danger would have been to run into a German aircraft patrol which was very very remote.
JH: Yes. Did you have any fighter escort going out?
BM: No. No. No.
JH: For a while?
BM: We just kept out to sea.
JH: Yeah. So what was the flying time to — it was —
BM: We got there about —
JH: To Malta wasn’t it?
BM: About, yeah about ten hours.
JH: Ten hours. Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We came in close to the coast of Portugal about three in the afternoon.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we hugged the coast there down to the big bay there where the Battle of Trafalgar took place.
JH: Yes.
BM: And from there suddenly we saw the Rock of Gibraltar looming out of the afternoon sun.
JH: Yes.
BM: And there we had a, a very frightening incident happened.
JH: Really?
BM: I called up the pilots to, ‘Come up and have a look and see the result of your labour,’ and called up the navigator.
JH: Yes.
BM: He came out of his office. And he came up and he was leaning over my shoulder looking out at the Rock of Gibraltar. He put his hand down and turned on the full bloody flaps. Which I didn’t realise.
JH: By mistake.
BM: Suddenly the aircraft’s speed fell away. I didn’t know what had happened. And I had to put the bloody nose down and open the throttles. And I was thinking about getting the, I thought something had gone wrong with the engines or —
JH: Yeah.
BM: I didn’t understand.
JH: Yeah. Loss of airspeed.
BM: I had to tell the wireless operator to send out an SOS. So I was getting prepared to land in the bloody sea and I don’t know how but it occurred to me that the flaps were down. I didn’t realise. I put them up.
JH: Yes. Yeah
BM: Came around and landed [laughs]
JH: Exchanged a few pleasantries no doubt.
BM: So I had a complete sweat. Yeah.
JH: So —
BM: At any rate we spent the night in Gibraltar. Very pleasant. And didn’t get any sleep that night.
JH: Yes.
BM: Didn’t get much sleep the night before in England of course either. And we spent the night there they were blasting into the rock. We were in a Nissen hut at the base of the rock and the blasting was going on all night. And they were also practicing deck landings next door.
JH: Yeah.
BM: So we didn’t get a lot of sleep that night either.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But we took off for Malta the next day at 4 o’clock. Four in the afternoon.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And another aircraft. We decided, a friend of mine had also landed and two of us flew together in formation for a while.
JH: Yes.
BM: On the way to Malta. And suddenly he turned and went back and I didn’t find out ‘til much later in the war.
JH: Yeah.
BM: What had happened. Someone had opened the hatch above the pilot which opened it. You couldn’t close it in flight.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Someone apparently had. I don’t know the second pilot had grabbed the lever there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The hatch had come open to he had to go back and start afresh. And he didn’t arrive in Malta until we’d left the next day.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I found out later the big danger with landing at Malta too was that the man in charge in Malta was, could keep you there and he could hand your aircraft over to someone else.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he could keep you there to do operations from Malta which were very unfriendly of course.
JH: Yes.
BM: So Malta was a place you didn’t want to stay at. At any rate we got to Malta about ten or eleven at night and they’d warned us that, before we left that, be careful. You’re not very far from Sicily there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which was German controlled. And the wireless operator would have to contact Malta and get a thing called a QDM. That’s a direction.
JH: Yeah.
BM: To fly to Malta. So we’d check up. It was just about a thousand miles journey.
JH: Yeah.
BM: He had to, that wireless operator had to check up that you were at Malta. And they said be careful the Germans could send you a message directing you to Sicily.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any right the flight there was very pleasant. We were flying at about six thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: And my heart sank when we were about half an hour from Malta and the whole of the sea below clouded over. And they’d told us when we got to Malta they’d put a couple of searchlights when we got there about ten or eleven at night. And when we got to Malta the whole place was clouded over and I was circling around for about five minutes ‘til I finally saw the searchlights through the cloud. And I came down and the, there was high ground in Malta. About eight hundred feet I think.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And got under the cloud at about a thousand feet and there was the runway. I came around and landed there and very gratefully. And the landing wasn’t bad which I was very much afraid of. And we taxied around. We were met by the ground crew. They were in military uniform. Not the air force blue. I thought, God we’re at the wrong [laughs] we’re at the German aerodrome but it wasn’t of course. But they were mainly interested if we had any sandwiches left which we had, and any, or and any cigarettes. I’d taken the trouble of buying a thousand cigarettes when I left to hand out when we got to Malta. And I told them that in Gibraltar, would I take more cigarettes? They said no the crew that takes those generally doesn’t get to Malta. Apparently there was a bit of a hoodoo about anyone carting stuff to Malta.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bad luck evidently.
JH: Bad luck.
BM: So, I only took about a thousand cigarettes to give to the mess when we got there.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: There’s a, we got to the air, they told us, ‘When we get there on no account,’ they said, ‘Your path on the aerodrome is at daybreak but don’t leave the aerodrome unattended err your aircraft unattended. You might find all your parachutes have disappeared if you do.’ They said, ‘We haven’t got guards on the aerodrome.’ Guards were on, they had bay, sort of shelters for the aeroplanes off the aerodrome. Horse shoe shaped construction of sandbags. Well, you taxied your aeroplane off and they pushed it into these shelters. And they said, ‘Stay with the aircraft. Get someone to stay with the aerodrome err the aeroplane until daybreak and then they’ll come out and you’ll have to taxi into a shelter.’ But navigator and I then went in to have a bit to eat at the mess there and when we got there, there was a bloody party going on. Incredible thing. And all the pilots and we were welcomed in because we’d just arrived in our flying suits. They came around. The pilots were all fighter pilots and the reason they were there was a crew in a Beaufort that day had been shot down and been taken prisoner on a Greek island and it had been there for about a week and the Germans, an Italian seaplane called to pick them up to fly them back to Italy. And when they were in the air the three people from, the captives overcame the bloody guards in the aeroplane and made it fly to Malta. And we saw it in the harbour the next day. A float plane. And that was the party.
JH: What a story.
BM: Yeah. I think the pilot, the captive pilot was a South African. And there was an Australian among them. And there were two or three others. But they were having this party. And the story goes with one of them said, evidently when they were captives the food there was much better at Malta. One said, ‘The food there was good. We must do this again.’
JH: Yeah. I like that.
BM: But we saw the plane the next day.
JH: Yeah.
BM: In the harbour there. But it was pure bloody Hollywood. The whole thing.
JH: Yeah. So, what, what was it like on, on Malta? Was Malta, was the feeling of this is an outpost. Heavily defended.
BM: Yeah. We were only there. We stayed the night then. We went back to the aeroplane and slept in it. In the plane. At daybreak then taxied in to the shelter.
JH: Because you were heading for Egypt wasn’t it?
BM: We were heading for Egypt.
JH: Yes.
BM: We were only there a stop off. For a refuel stop. So they came and collected us at daybreak and very foolishly we spent the bloody day bloody sightseeing around the Malta instead of having a sleep.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bloody crazy.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it was too good an opportunity. We actually got a taxi there which was a horse drawn vehicle. And there were two or three air raids during the day. You could hear the machine guns going up in the air and this fellow driving around in this horse drawn taxi. But at any rate we reported back to the aerodrome about 4 o’clock and they briefed us then and said, ‘Well, the weather’s good. Nothing to worry about there. The only danger is units of the Italian fleet might be somewhere on your route when you fly from here to Cairo.’ And it was just as we get a thousand miles from Cairo, a thousand from Gib. At any rate we, they said come back, and just get aboard the aircraft and taxi it out.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Wait at the end of the runway. Just before dark. And on, if there’s an air raid comes along get off the ground straight away but otherwise stand by waiting there. And if you see us flash a green get on the runway and take off straight away. We sat on the plane there and suddenly three people turned up and said, ‘We’re your passengers.’ Two of them were two Dutch seamen.
JH: Yes.
BM: And a lieutenant from submarines which were based in Malta.
JH: Yes.
BM: They were passengers to go back with us to Cairo.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate we were sitting there waiting and suddenly the bloody air raid siren went. And people in the control place flashed green at us to get going and —
JH: And you were on the tarmac.
BM: I was waiting at the edge of the, the edge of the runway there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And I taxied on. At that moment two Beaufighters which had been in sandbagged shelters nearby they came out at high speed and turned on to the runway, took off and climbed at about forty five degrees
JH: Yeah.
BM: They were night fighters apparently. But any rate I got on the runway and I thought I’d do a thing that I tried to, I opened up too quickly and if you’re not careful you swing on take-off.
JH: Yeah.
BM: You’ve got to often open one throttle before the others.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I swung right off the bloody runway and I had to turn back, taxi back and start again. In the meantime the fellow was flashing a green light at me to get going. I got off the next time without any trouble. We flew out to sea. They said, ‘Fly out to sea at five hundred feet before you set course.’ You could see that air raid in progress. Quite a sight. Cannons firing and searchlights and —
JH: Yes.
BM: Oh dear.
JH: What were they targeting? The Germans.
BM: We then set course for Malta and the main problem was keeping awake.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And part of the time I had the second pilot flying. Him I was, I didn’t trust him much. So I had to try and stay awake. I remember standing up a lot of the time. And with hindsight what I should have done, bloody crazy was called up this flight lieutenant fellow to stand by to see we didn’t go to sleep.
JH: Yeah.
BM: We had a bit of a scare once when we, there was a bit of moon and there was some shadows on the ocean. We thought this is the Italian fleet.
JH: Yes.
BM: But it wasn’t.
JH: Yes.
BM: But then we didn’t have, there was no wind apparently the whole journey. I think the navigator said he was on the one course the whole way.
JH: Yes. So that air space between Malta and Egypt. Was that controlled by the Germans to a large extent?
BM: Yes. It was. The Italians.
JH: Yeah. The Italians. Yeah.
BM: The Italian fleet were in charge more or less. But they weren’t. It wasn’t the Italian fleet. They were knocked out largely by the Swordfish aircraft in that air raid.
JH: Yes.
BM: They knocked out half the bloody Italian fleet. I’ve forgotten the name of the place. The Italian port they raided. But that was the old Swordfish from an aircraft carrier. At any rate nothing happened then until we were about just at daybreak. We were about a hundred miles from Cairo and I spotted a submarine on the ocean ahead of us. You could see it in the path of light from the sun which was just appearing then and I suddenly thought it might be a bloody submarine —
JH: Friendly or otherwise.
BM: In trouble or something. It shouldn’t be on the surface. Why was it on the surface? And as we dropped near it started flashing a very fast Morse code as the Naval people did then. Flashing a message at us. I couldn’t, it was too fast for me so I called the wireless operator up, ‘Better come up and read their message they’re flashing.’ And I had visions of this crippled submarine wanting help and I thought well we’ll send a distress beacon. Tell them they’re here. But the message they sent us was, ‘Good morning.’ [laughs] From that we went on and landed in Cairo. And at that stage I was completely half drunk with fatigue. I remember when I got out of the aircraft I sat down on the ground and went to sleep. I woke up and on the ground you see beside me a fellow with a revolver around his waist, a cowboy hat on and flying boots on. It was an American fighter pilot who’d been ferrying an aircraft across Africa from the west coast of Africa. That’s the only way they got aircraft there. They took it by plane to the west of Africa then.
JH: Yes.
BM: And they flew them across Africa.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And he’d flown a, I think a, oh a fighter plane across. They flew across in formation.
JH: Yes.
BM: With an escort. But any rate from there we got down to. They woke me up and said, ‘Would you fly the aircraft down to the Suez Canal,’ which very foolishly I said yes. And I took off again and flew down to, down to the squadron. 148 Squadron. Based on the Canal.
JH: Yes.
BM: And that’s where we began operations.
JH: 104
BM: No. 148.
JH: Oh 148.
BM: 148.
JH: Yeah. Ok. Yeah. 148.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. So that’s, that’s where you started off.
BM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And the target then was Tobruk. Tobruk was the only sort of port on the African coast which was giving supplies to the Germans who were on the outskirts of Cairo by then. At Alemein. And we were, our main target was Tobruk.
JH: Yes
BM: So far as they —
JH: Which was in German hands at that time
BM: The Germans were —
JH: Yeah
BM: Bringing in to Tobruk. Yeah.
JH: Yes. Yes. So you were targeting the supply ships coming in.
BM: Coming into Tobruk. Yeah.
JH: All the defences.
BM: The war was there too.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yes.
BM: To begin with I think we did about eight trips to Tobruk.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which was quite a distance. It was about six or seven hours flight.
JH: So your, tell me about your first operation. Was that one of these Tobruk raids?
BM: Yes. I remember that very well. Went as a second pilot to an experienced pilot. Flight Lieutenant Moore was our pilot.
JH: Yeah. You were the dickie.
BM: An experienced pilot.
JH: You say the dickie is it? You were the dickie.
BM: Yeah. I was second pilot. Yes.
JH: Yes. Ok.
BM: Very pleasant. You had no responsibility. You just sat there and watched everything. And when we got to Tobruk they had quite a few — they had about a dozen anti-aircraft guns there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which started firing at you when you got near there.
JH: Bill, tell me was this a daylight raid or night raid.
BM: Night raid. All night.
JH: All night.
BM: All night.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: At any rate I remember he was the fella who, he did the bombing run. The navigator was the bomb aimer then in those days. Navigator bomb aimer. He was down in the bomb bay to drop the bombs but the, this second, this instructor pilot he directed the run in. You know, ‘Right. Right. Left. Left. Centre.’ And then he said to the bomb aimer —
[telephone ringing]
BM: Hello. Hello. Hello. Just hold on a minute. Just tell them it’s my phone. See what they want. I can’t. I’ve got hearing aids in.
JH: Oh. Hello. This is John Horsburgh here. I’m actually interviewing Bill at the moment. Can I take a message? Yes. Yes. I’m interviewing him now. Yeah. Can I take your number and he’ll call you back? [delete] ok I’ll get, I’ll get Mr McRae to call you back.
BM: Tell him I’ll call him back
JH: Ok. Thank you, Justin.
BM: Thanks.
JH: We were, we were talking about your first operation.
BM: My first bombing run.
JH: Yeah. Your first bombing run. Yeah
BM: He called up the pilot and said, ‘I’ve done this trip three or four few times. Let me. Let me drop the bombs.’ So instead of letting the bloody navigator direct us onto the target he put the plane into a dive and roared across Tobruk at high speed, pulled the bomb toggle and dropped all the bombs in one thing.
JH: The whole lot. The whole string.
BM: The whole lot. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Which was completely against all our instruction in training. And that sort of thing you never thought of doing. But at any rate when we got back we got debriefed at the debriefing we didn’t mention this. Had we done so he might have been in big trouble I think.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: But you were graded LMF if you did that sort of thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: But the navigator was very upset about it. So was I [laughs] But that was my first bombing. I did another trip with another crew another night but they did the right thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: We got caught in the searchlights that night too which was very unpleasant. But that was my first experience of a bombing raid. Which we didn’t report to the authorities.
JH: Just between you and I this is [laughs] Ok.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yes.
BM: Yeah. Don’t mention it [laughs]
JH: No. We won’t [laughs] Tell me about the first operation when you were actually in control of the plane on the bomb run.
[phone ringing]
JH: Shall I? Hello, Bill McRae’s phone. John Horsborough. I’m actually interviewing Bill at the moment. Yeah. Yes. Will do. Ok. Righto. Ok. Bye.
BM: Who’s that?
JH: Jeannie.
BM: Oh right.
JH: Coffee tomorrow.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Anyway, back to your first operation. You’re in control.
BM: Oh yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember that quite well because we were based on the Suez Canal and one of the things you had to be careful of you could see a ship almost at the end of the runway going across the desert. The Canal was at the far end of the runway. And you’d just see a ship there sailing across the desert. You had to be careful taking off that there weren’t any ships going through the canal because when you took off you didn’t get any height. You’d be flying for about two or three miles I’d say. You climbed very slowly. And you climbed towards, turned towards Tobruk and you climbed up as high as you could get which in those with those, planes it was about ten or twelve thousand feet. And I remember we, getting up along the coast of North Africa the navigator went down below to check the position, map reading the coast and he called me up and said, ‘Mac,’ he said, ‘We’re flying over a convoy. There are balloons down below.’ I said, ‘This is bloody crazy. There are no balloons here.’ I banked around and had a look and there were four things that looked like balloons. They were puffs of anti-aircraft fire.
JH: Heading your way.
BM: They were firing at us but about a thousand feet below us [laughs] So we immediately changed course. At any rate the, quite a lot of flak. Quite a lot of searchlights at Tobruk. The thing I remember about the searchlights they would all go out and there would be one would suddenly come on alone. A blue searchlight. And about five seconds later all the searchlights would concentrate on one plane and they’d hold that plane for quite a while.
JH: It’s coning it isn’t it? Yeah.
BM: But it didn’t come on to us. We rode it out. Do a normal bombing run. And you took photographs when you dropped your bombs too.
JH: Yes.
BM: You held course for about, I think ten or fifteen seconds till the bombs exploded and the camera took a photograph of where your bombs went.
JH: Yes.
BM: But we were bombing the wharves mainly.
JH: Yes.
BM: I don’t know whether. I don’t know whether there was anything there to bomb really.
JH: I think you told me. I think it was you told me you actually took part in the battle of El Alemein.
BM: Yes.
JH: Targeting German supply ships.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Would that be right?
BM: Well, after we were on the Canal we moved up to Kilo Forty which was forty kilos on the road from Cairo to Alexandria. Just a desert aerodrome. And from there we more or less supported the army.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bombing German airfields behind the lines.
JH: Yes.
BM: And bombing army targets which were marked by aircraft from Alexandria. Fleet Air Arm aircraft dropping flares. I don’t know how they got they got in on the act.
JH: Yes.
BM: But they’d dropped flares for us to bomb on.
JH: Yes.
BM: We did half a dozen trips on that before El Alemein.
JH: Yes.
BM: And on El Alemein night we did two bombing runs. One at about eleven at night and one about two in the morning because we were not that far from the battle front. You could hear the barrage start up at about 10 o’clock. On the 23rd of October I think it was.
JH: It’s —
BM: After El Alemein of course old Montgomery was successful but I always thought he, he was too cautious by half because he knew all the German plans because Rommel had been sending messages back to Hitler. He was short of petrol. He was short of reinforcements and pleading with Hitler to send reinforcements by way of aircraft or I think the Germans were supplying their fighters, called JU52s bringing aircraft fuel in. That’s how short of fuel they were.
JH: Yes.
BM: But Hitler of course said, ‘Don’t surrender. Fight to the last man.’ But Rommel fortunately decided that was bloody silly because he got quite a few Germans out of Africa. He retreated. Very skilfully retreated. And I think Montgomery should have thrown everything at the Germans because he had a couple of people from that Enigma machine with him relaying messages that Rommel was sending to Hitler. How desperate he was for supplies.
JH: Yes.
BM: And how desperate he was to sort of get reinforcements. But Rommel didn’t move. He had sort of absolute overpowering authority.
JH: Yes.
BM: We had about seven to one air superiority.
JH: Yes
BM: I reckon Rommel should have thrown us during the daytime. He could have had about three or four to one fighter superiority and he had about three to one, he had about seven to one bomber superiority.
JH: So, that was the feeling among the squadron that the 8th Army didn’t follow through enough.
BM: Yes. I reckon he should have. He should have thrown everything into the battle.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he would have knocked Rommel out and he would have captured an awful lot of Germans.
JH: Yes.
BM: Anyway, he was successful so —
JH: Yes. I, I read somewhere that the Desert Air Force got involved in this concept of close air support. The actual air force involving with the infantry. In fact they were forward.
BM: Ah yes.
JH: Forward scouts passing on information to, to the air force.
BM: Yeah.
JH: And I read that the desert was where the, this close air support was really initiated.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Did you have any experience of that?
BM: No. I was a bit disappointed there. I thought we should have been kept in touch with what was going on with the army. We never were.
JH: Yeah That’s interesting with your army background.
BM: I think —
JH: Artillery background.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I thought there was a bit of, probably ill feeling between the air force and the army. I don’t know. I could be wrong there. But they sort of fought their own war as it were.
JH: Yes.
BM: At any rate we followed up the army there when the army retreated. The Germans retreated. We followed up and we got as far as Tobruk. And we were dropping bombs on the retreating Germans and then we suddenly got a move to. I think — six planes will proceed forthwith to Halfway House. By that stage we were up behind Tobruk.
JH: So you were leap frogging.
BM: Leap frogging. Yes
JH: The base as, as the front moved
BM: When the Germans were retreating we were following. Yeah.
JH: Westwards. Yeah.
BM: And there wasn’t, when the message came to have six planes would proceed to Halfway House no one knew and I had to send a message back to find Halfway House from Malta. This was about a thousand miles from Gibraltar and a thousand miles from Cairo. It was known to the Navy as Halfway House.
JH: Yes.
BM: So the middle of the afternoon we got the message we were, had to take off at dark with two ground, two supplies of ground crew. Half a dozen ground crew staff.
JH: Yes.
BM: As passengers. So we, immediately we were headed for Malta.
JH: And how long were you based in Malta then?
BM: Well, it took about four hours to get there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember well when we were nearing Malta there was a bloody line of lights appeared.
JH: Yes.
BM: I thought, God, we’ve gone to Italy or Sicily or somewhere. I called up the wireless, I said get an QDM. That’s a course to steer [unclear] and it was correct. We were. A convoy had gotten in a couple of ships and all the lights were on on the wharves. That’s the lights we were seeing. And we got to Malta and one of our planes landing hit a, one of the sand bagged bays near the beginning of the runway and went up in flames. We landed with this bloody thing flaming beside us. And we taxied in and found out that I think the pilot got out of it, I think. I think he lost his legs. But he was about the only one that survived, I think. But at any rate we operated from Malta then for a couple of months. That was early December then.
JH: Yes.
BM: 1942
JH: And were you operating from Malta as far as Sicily from there?
BM: Yes. Sicily was, Sicily was a main target. And North Africa. Retreating Germans. Tripoli.
JH: Yes.
BM: And Sfax and Sous. They were in Tunisia.
JH: Yes.
BM: The Germans were retreating there.
JH: Yes.
BM: Sending ships to pick them up. Yeah.
JH: Yes. So, yeah so Tunisia I believe you were on some important raids to Tunisia and Palermo. Is that correct?
BM: That’s correct. Yes, yeah.
JH: Yes. Do you want to mention a couple of those?
BM: Yes. I remember Palermo quite well because we didn’t take off at a scheduled time. Take off was delayed because there was bad weather and the trouble at Malta they had no weather reporting process so they could never predict the weather. You know the weather was a bit doubtful. Anyway we took off. We found the target all right. I was amazed at the, the, not much flak went up as we were coming out. Normally —
JH: Yeah.
BM: When you come up to a target. You see the guns firing.
JH: Yes.
BM: But there were no guns firing as we got up to the target.
JH: Yeah.
BM: When they started shooting. And we found out later there were only two aircraft got there. The rest got a recall. The others were all recalled because of bad weather. So we were the only two aircraft that got to the target.
JH: You didn’t get the message.
BM: We didn’t get the message. No [laughs] At any rate we were flying back we had trouble with the bad weather getting back.
JH: Yeah.
BM: I remember that well. Went into a storm or something.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Because they couldn’t forecast the weather then.
JH: Yeah.
BM: That was the trouble. And apparently the weather was very changeable because the Alps weather and the desert weather meet —
JH: Yes.
BM: Over the Mediterranean there.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you got very very severe turbulence.
JH: Yes.
BM: And you got a lot of static electricity.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Laying on the guns.
JH: Really?
BM: Yeah. Well, we survived Malta.
JH: Yes. Was it that raid to Palermo, I think you told me before both engines cut out for some reason. You lost your engines.
BM: Ah yes. Yes. Yeah.
JH: What happened there?
BM: There we were, actually it was another raid on Sicily that we had trouble with. Engine trouble. Had a thing with when we were bombing Sicily it was after we got, we came back to Cairo and they gave us one last raid. We suddenly got a message in Cairo. Take off at midnight. Return to Cairo. Which we did. And when we were there I found I’d done my tour of operations but a couple of the crew hadn’t finished and needed one more raid. And we were a bit lucky because we got the last raid was dropping supplies to people in Crete. At the western end of Crete a lot of people had escaped during the German invasion and there was a rebel force there fighting the Germans in the mountains. Very mountainous country and they came out at mid-day and loaded our aircraft with big metal containers about six feet long in the bomb bay and gave us a place to drop them at the western end of Crete. And we took off about dusk and got to Crete and they also gave us bundles of newspapers and said, ‘When you’ve dropped the bombs fly to the other side of Crete. The northern side where all the towns are.’ There were no towns in the western end.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It’s all mountainous, ‘And drop out these newspapers.’ Propaganda. German propaganda. Against the Germans for the Cretian, the Cretian people. At any rate we dropped the bombs, flew around Crete and flying along the northern side couldn’t see any land for a while and it was there that we found that we’d gone too far north.
JH: Yes.
BM: We saw a lot of bloody islands below and we knew that Crete was somewhere to the south so we went there and when we suddenly hit Crete they started firing guns at us. So you can imagine the newspapers were delivered very rapidly [laughs]
JH: Yeah.
BM: And we climbed straight away to ten thousand feet.
JH: Yeah.
BM: There were mountains in Crete up to eight thousand feet.
JH: Yes.
BM: At the western end. But we dropped the newspapers and went home. And that was our last operation.
JH: Yes. So at that stage it was the operations were coming to an end there. Did you have any idea what lay ahead of, of you and your crew? Was it going back to the UK or —
BM: No. We didn’t know.
JH: Or Italy.
BM: We went back and sat in Cairo for a couple of weeks.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And they suddenly told us to get aboard an aircraft and flew us down to Khartoum. Flying boat. And then we got another DC3 from there across the whole of Africa to the west coast of Africa.
JH: So where were you going? What was the plan?
BM: Back to England.
JH: Back to England.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Ok. Yeah.
BM: We got to —
JH: Yeah
BM: I think Takoradi, that was the place on the west coast of Africa. We sat there for about a week.
JH: That’s in Ghana I think.
BM: It was a small.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Coastal vehicle took us up to Freetown which is a main port in West Africa there.
JH: Yes.
BM: Where we got aboard [pause] what was the name of the boat? The Mauritania. An ocean liner.
JH: Yes.
BM: Bound for Liverpool. We went back unescorted. It went at high speed.
JH: Yes.
BM: It went about thirty eight knots I think. And went out in to the mid-Atlantic.
JH: With a convoy? Or —
BM: No. Alone.
JH: Solo.
BM: Just travelling at high speed. And altering course apparently every five minutes. Yeah. Zig-zagging.
JH: Zig-zagging.
BM: Went to Liverpool. So, and from there got a plane back to London.
JH: Yes. And some well-earned leave. Did you have any leave time?
BM: Went on leave there. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. And from there got posted. Got a posting on to Training Command up in Lossiemouth. To an Operational Training Unit to instruct bomber crews.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I sat there until the, more or less the end of the war instructing people.
JH: What — is this 1944?
BM: This would be —
JH: Coming into Lossiemouth.
BM: 1943.
JH: 1943.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
BM: It was there I found that I’d been awarded a DFC for flying in Africa and Alemein and so on.
JH: So you completed a tour.
BM: Completed a tour.
JH: And the DFC.
BM: DFC. Yes
JH: Yeah. Yeah. And your rank at that stage. Flight.
BM: I was a flight lieutenant.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: By that stage.
JH: Yes. So —
BM: And then, I was instructing there. I got posted down to the Empire Central Flying School at Hullavington in England.
JH: At where? Sorry?
BM: Empire Central Flying School.
JH: Yes.
BM: At Hullavington. Which was the main training place for bomber crews. I got trained to instruct bomber crews there. Then I went back and got on very well with the man in charge of the place at Lossiemouth wasn’t it?
JH: Yes.
BM: The instructing place. And he was the man I think that got me the Air Force Cross. I got an Air Force Cross for my instructing.
JH: Oh really. Yeah.
BM: We were the operational training instructing French crews.
JH: Yes.
BM: And as a result of that I got the French Legion d’honneur from there.
JH: Yes. I was there. I saw you. I was there when you were awarded.
BM: I tell the story how I got the AFC. When we were at Lossiemouth a bit of a surf would come in there at the right time of year. In Midsummer. The water was reasonably warm but we boys would get down for a swim in the river like this here.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there’s a couple of reefs nearby. And I was able to catch a few waves. I’m no expert surfer but I was outstanding apparently. There were three or four English blokes. I was the talk of bloody the station, ‘You should have seen him.’ I could do a slow roll on a wave as it was coming. I could do a roll and come down right side up.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But they thought this was incredible. And the news of this got to the group captain in charge of the place and he said, ‘Well I believe that the reefs along the shore there, I believe there are lobsters there which are ready to be caught and no one has been near the place for years because mines had been laid thereabouts.’ He said, ‘We’ll go along one afternoon and might be able to get a lobster.’ So a crowd of us went along. The group captain in his car with three other fellas and myself wading around these reefs. And I was the only one that caught a bloody lobster. I moved down and threw it up on the shore. And after we got out and were drying ourselves the boys said, ‘What do you do with a lobster?’ We’ll cook it —? I said, ‘Oh no.’ I knew the group captain lived off the station. I said, ‘You have it sir.’ And the boys said, ‘You’ll get on. You’ll get on.’ And I reckon that’s how I might have got my bloody AFC [laughs]
JH: How you got your gong. Yeah. Well, what a change from operations.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Being up there.
BM: Yes.
JH: So, what happened to the rest of the crew Bill?
BM: Eh
JH: What happened to the rest of your crew?
BM: The rest of the crew. I kept in touch with the navigator. He got posted up instructing to Lossiemouth too. Lossiemouth there were three stations there. They had the main station and there were two satellite stations. I was in charge of one of the satellite stations.
JH: Yes.
BM: For a while.
JH: Yes.
BM: He was with the main station instructing other navigators.
JH: Yes.
BM: And by that time in England Gee, an operational aid had come into being.
JH: Yes.
BM: Which had more or less done away with the old plotting thing.
JH: Yes.
BM: Navigators could get a fix by operating a Gee set. Well, he was instructing on that.
JH: Yes. And was it Lancasters phasing in?
BM: No. No.
JH: And the Wellingtons phasing out at that stage?
BM: Still Wellingtons.
JH: Still Wellingtons.
BM: After they’d finished their training with us crews were posted down to England to a Conversion Unit.
JH: Conversion.
BM: On four engines.
JH: Yes.
BM: Where they spent about twelve hours I think.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there they would pick up a mid-upper gunner and an engineer.
JH: Crew. A crew of seven. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. They had a four engine aircraft then.
JH: Yeah
BM: A four engine bomber. But with us they were still on twin engines. Which was a bit not the base.
JH: Yes. Yes. So that was, that was for you an enjoyable period.
BM: No. It wasn’t enjoyable.
JH: Or not. Or were you wanting to get back into action?
BM: It was really trying, instructing. You didn’t get a lot of sleep. You were either instructing or you were in charge of night flying. And I’ve got a good after dinner story when instructing the French. The early French were really magnificent pilots. They’d been in the French Air Force.
JH: Yes.
BM: One of them in particular had been flying with the French civil lines. And they at that stage had an airline over to, I think West Africa where they landed somewhere in mid-Atlantic. Well, one of the pilots they were training had been on that cross bloody Atlantic flight. But you couldn’t teach him anything of course. I was very —
JH: So he knew a bit about navigation obviously.
BM: I was very sort of hesitant about correcting him. He could have taught me a lot. I’m sure of that.
JH: Yeah.
BM: But the French crews. I remember the, there was an intelligence officer at every station.
JH: Yes.
BM: And there was a head of intelligence man. I suppose based at Edinburgh who would tour around visiting the stations and he came around to visit our stations. And French crews on the station would receive every couple of weeks a cask of wine sent up by General de Gaulle from London which could be issued gratis to the French aircrews. At any rate this head navigation intelligence man came visiting us and called in for lunch. And he was a First World War man. Allegedly related to the Queen. First World War medals. He liked his whisky which we gave him for lunch.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And the bloody French crews [unclear] insisted he have some French wine too. After dinner you went and got your own coffee at the coffee thing at the entrance and he was getting his cup of coffee and he tripped over and fell and sat on the coffee cup. And he had to have half a dozen stitches put in his backside
Other: Dear. Dinnertime.
BM: It’s time. I’d better not have dinner.
Other: You don’t want to go down for dinner?
BM: No. I won’t worry about it.
JH: Bill, we can, we can probably start winding it up a bit and if so you can have your dinner.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: Would you —
Other: You can have [unclear] as well I think.
BM: Give me five minutes.
Other: Ok darling.
BM: Can I have five minutes?
Other: Yeah darling.
JH: Yes. Ok.
Other: Sure.
JH: Yeah.
BM: This man’s interviewing me. How I won the war [laughs]
Other: Yeah darling. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. But you read about the training squadrons. There were quite a few casualties.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: Did you have experience of that at Lossiemouth?
BM: Oh yeah. We had the, we had the odd crash.
JH: Yes.
BM: And we found in the, at the station there we were the people who found that something was happening with the Wellingtons. They were developing cracks in the main spar. And we had three mysterious crashes. Now remember I was the man who discovered one of the French aircrews who crashed when they, just after they left at night. They left the east coast of Scotland and disappeared. I found the crash the next day. Cracks developed in the main spar due to heavy landings. And they were all ex-operational aircraft which in avoiding fighters and anti-aircraft fire they’d far exceed authorised speed limits. Every aircraft had a mark on the altimeter not to exceed. Well —
JH: Yeah.
BM: You’d bloody well exceed that if you got into trouble
JH: Yeah.
BM: Instead going down at three hundred miles an hour they’d be going down at three fifty and that cracked the main spar.
JH: Yes.
BM: And they developed with heavy landings. And when the training crews were doing fighter affiliation you taught them to do very steep manoeuvres.
JH: Yes.
BM: To avoid fighters. You had an aircraft acting as a fighter chasing you. That was part of your training. And we had a couple of mysterious crashes. There was nothing left when they hit the ground. But one fell into the sea and they were able to get the wreckage.
JH: Yeah.
BM: And there they discovered the cracks. I think that was one of the main reasons —
JH: Yeah.
BM: That I got a bit of a notoriety through one of the people who was discovered this crack. They grounded the Wellingtons for two or three days and strengthened the main spars.
JH: That sounds like quite a breakthrough finding that problem.
BM: Yes. It was. Yes.
JH: No doubt saved no end of lives.
BM: That would have been the reason. Heavy landings by pupils.
JH: Yes.
BM: And giving them this manoeuvre. The corkscrew manoeuvre we taught them.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: But after that that more or less ended my career.
JH: Yes. So, just, just to finish off. What about you were there for VE day in the UK.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Then you went back to the bank?
BM: Yeah.
JH: Or did you continue with the air force after the war for a while.
BM: I continued for about six months.
JH: Yes.
BM: The bank had no staff.
JH: Yes.
BM: They all waited to be called up.
JH: Yes.
BM: As a result they didn’t get the — I got released straight away.
JH: Yes.
BM: Having joined early. But the bank staff — we had no bloody staff
JH: Yes.
BM: And I went. I was working all sorts of bloody hours.
JH: Yes.
BM: 10 o’clock at night. I was one of the few bloody staff in London office.
JH: My father, after the war left, left the RAF. In to Barclays working long hours like you did.
BM: Yes. Yes.
JH: But there were no staff.
BM: That’s right.
JH: Now, what about family? Family life.
BM: I married my wife halfway through the war.
JH: Yes. Yes.
BM: I didn’t shoot my line about how I got my DFC. In Edinburgh.
JH: Yes.
BM: I went along to get it at the Holyrood House.
JH: Yeah.
BM: The palace there, with the [pause] And when I went I asked the girl at the desk, ‘How do I get to the Palace?’ She said, ‘You can catch a tram.’ A tram or — I got a tram and the girl came up and said, ‘There’s the Palace sir.’ It was a picture show. That’s my afternoon story.
JH: Yes.
BM: How I got my medal.
JH: Ok.
BM: I went back to Holyrood and got my medal.
JH: Yes.
BM: And that was it.
JH: Yes. Yeah. So, so you continue with the bank.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Until you retired. Did you retire?
BM: Till I retired. I retired early.
JH: Yes.
BM: Banking never pleased me anymore.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: I retired as soon as I could. Aged fifty five.
JH: Yeah. Now, you could have stayed in the UK but what brought you back here?
BM: I think mainly [pause] I don’t know really. I had to retire somewhere.
JH: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And this was one of the good places to retire.
JH: Yes. Yeah. Did you go back to New England or you came back to Sydney?
BM: I came back to Sydney.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: And I went around. I finished up managing all of Sydney.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I retired from there more or less.
JH: Yes. Yeah. And I know you’ve kept in touch with veterans. You’re involved in the —
BM: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JH: Bomber Command Association and I saw you in London.
BM: Yeah.
JH: For the opening of the Memorial by the Queen.
BM: That’s right.
JH: That very hot day. You remember.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: And I’ve seen you at lots of functions.
BM: But I’m not a great medal man. I don’t believe in medals. I’ve got a couple of medals but I think I’ve always said people who got medals, should have got them are no longer with us.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I knew, during my training at Lossiemouth I knew there, fellow pilots, two VCs, very well.
JH: Yes.
BM: They went back on their second tour. Bazalgette and Palmer.
JH: Yes.
BM: Both won VCs. Posthumous of course.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
BM: But I, when I went to London for the 2012 thing I met Sir Peter Squire.
JH: Yes.
BM: I’ve got his picture over there.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Have a look at it. And that —
JH: Yeah.
BM: And that friend advising about the Legion d’honneur. I had a long talk with him when I met him at the meeting after the celebration for the monument thing. And someone wrote him a letter. I had a long talk to him. And I flattered myself he might have remembered me. I told a friend, they sent him a message I got a Legion d’Honneur and he wrote me a response. Have a look at his picture and the letter he wrote me over there.
JH: I’ll have a look afterwards.
BM: Yeah. Have a look.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: At any rate don’t mention my medals [laughs]
JH: Well, Bill —
BM: I told, I think I must have struck a sympathetic ear because he got the same medals as I have.
JH: Yes.
BM: And he got his through Falklands. His DFC. And I think he had a bit of, he thought a bloody World War Two bomber pilot was you know big time.
JH: Yes.
BM: I think he had a bit of an inferiority about his Falklands DFC.
JH: Yes.
BM: I don’t know. But I think that’s why we had a very very long talk.
JH: Yes.
BM: About — and he agreed with me about the medals.
JH: Yes.
BM: I said well I don’t know why they worried about it. I just went where I was told.
JH: Yeah.
BM: Nothing very special about it. We did what we had to do.
JH: Yes.
BM: But no reason to give us medals. And the fellas who should have got them of course got killed.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I don’t like capitalising on that.
JH: Yes.
BM: But at any rate see the letter he wrote me at the back.
JH: I’m going to have a look at that.
BM: I was quite, quite frazzled by it. Quite frazzled.
JH: Yes.
BM: And I think it might have been he might have remembered. I don’t know. But he would have met thousands of people.
JH: Bill —
BM: He was a very friendly gentleman.
JH: Yes.
BM: As I say we sort of had empathy together.
JH: I’ll have a look at that.
BM: Yeah.
JH: Bill, why don’t we wind it up. Thank you very much for the time and I feel really privileged to be the one interviewing you today. It’s a great story. It really is.
BM: Oh no.
JH: It is a good story. And so —
BM: Sheer luck.
JH: Thank you very much.
BM: Bomber Command was luck.
JH: Yes.
BM: I realised early on you were expendable. You realised that. After training you were very keen.
JH: Yes.
BM: Training you wanted to dash into it. When you got into it you realised you were bloody well expendable. You’ve only got someone to say, ‘There’s the target. Go for it.’ And you were gone.
JH: But your airspeed lesson. Dive bombing the church graveyard probably stood you in good stead.
BM: Training it did. You taught people that. Taught it.
JH: Thank you very much, Bill.
BM: Oh no. My pleasure. Sorry to have bored you.
JH: Not at all.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bill Macrae
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Horsburgh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMacraeWM161116
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:26:12 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
British Army
Description
An account of the resource
Bill McRae’s earliest memories were of the end of the First World War. He worked for a major bank during the Depression and was fortunate to be amongst a group of Australians who were sent to work in London. He volunteered at Australia House and was posted to the British Army for officer training during the summer of 1940. He later transferred to the RAF and after training as a pilot at RAF Cranwell was posted on to Malta and Cairo for the Middle East campaign. He later returned to the UK as an instructor at RAF Lossiemouth.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
New South Wales
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Greece
Greece--Crete
Libya
Libya--Tobruk
Italy
Italy--Sicily
Malta
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
148 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Flying Training School
Gee
Initial Training Wing
Magister
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Cranwell
RAF Harwell
RAF Lossiemouth
searchlight
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1112/11602/ASaundersR160616.2.mp3
b3356a853701a750fdd3e8f084c2f486
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saunders, Ron
Ronald Saunders
R Saunders
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Ron Saunders (1923 - 2018, 1803753 Royal Air Force) and his obituary and memoir. He flew operations with 114 and 55 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Saunders, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DB: Todays’ recording is with Mr. Ron Saunders of 114 Squadron in Stowmarket on the 16th of June at 2pm.
RS: This is really just a brief history of my life which started off being born in a place called Ewhurst on the borders of Kent and Suffolk, Kent and I beg your pardon, Sussex and Kent, maybe you’ll correct that, it’s Sussex and Kent, not too far away from Bodiam Castle. At that time my father was working for the Gypsum Mines over in Mountfield, Sussex and the journey was a bit too much so they, eventually they built two houses in another village called Netherfield, to which we eventually moved. However for my short time there I don’t remember going to school at all unless it was at the end of my seventh year which was when I moved with them I think, but the only notable thing I can remember is that one evening, after I’d gone to bed, being woken up to look out of the window and all I could see was a black mass with lights on which turned out to be the airship 101 on its fateful voyage where it crashed in France. Apart from that, as regards an interest, even young of having an interest in the Royal Air Force or airplanes in general. I was always given toys with the someone would just balsa wood which had a notch on and you had a catapult and you just, every time it had the same effect, they all finished up on the ground after half a loop. Then they went on to stronger, elastic bands with propellers, again not very strong, the same result, nothing lasted really long and it ended up on the deck. However, we then moved on to another field [laughs] and there life opened up really to me. I was at the right age, my father was very interested in cricket, he was a captain of the local village team so naturally I was drawn towards him, in that respect, and from then on I never lost my love of cricket. I was also, talking back to R 101, I was perhaps sitting idly not far away from where we lived, one Sunday afternoon, I think it was a Sunday, and I felt some sort of change in the atmosphere, I looked up and there was another airship, this time with a swastika largely emblazoned on the fin or tail and this turn out to be Hindenburg. In both cases I’ve, many years later, sorted out whether I was seeing things, which I wasn’t apparently, and you could tell by the route R 101 took it would have come over where we were in a direct line to Hastings, the other one I think went to Yorkshire. As I said, we moved to this property that the Gypsum Mines who were part of the British Plaster Board had built which four families occupied [coughs] the property that we now occupied was situated, one would say, very nicely because it sat in between two public houses, neither of them very far away, but these were not available to be not only have been young but mum and dad were quite strict chapel which of course I had to attend regularly. But nevertheless the country opened up for me and we could go where we liked, looking for dam chicks nests or plover’s eggs and joining the local haymaking, going up on the hayrick, and laid in the horses and I never lost my love of the country from that point. However on rainy days I was able to go into one of the public houses with the publican’s son and when it was not open to the public and have a game of darts or perhaps shove opening or whatever was available at that time [coughs] I’m trying to do it in short verse.
DB: Yeah, that’s fine, that’s
RS: It gives me a chance to get a thought.
DB: Yeah, if you find it easier, that’s a much better way of doing it.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: You’re in charge [laughs]
RS: Yeah. Oh God!
DB: No, don’t worry.
RS: [unclear] either until I bring something up, that’s the trouble.
DB: Got it? [laughs]
RS: [unclear]
DB: Oh, Goodness gracious, I’m glad I didn’t turn up earlier for you.
RS: I don’t know what you would have done actually, left it till tomorrow. But you didn’t think it would be anything like this.
DB: No, I’m sure she didn’t. [unclear] for you while you cough.
RS: [coughs] Yes, I don’t want to cough.
DB: That’s alright, don’t worry. Don’t’ worry, you’re doing really well.
RS: It’s a pity about the cough.
DB: Sorry, [unclear]
RS: You have it? It’s on. Also at the time there were many false alarms and the sirens would go and probably no one would have even hear an aircraft and the manager of the shop was getting a bit fed up with lowering the shutters every time the sirens went and having to put them up again and people in the shop could go below where they kept all the cheese, the eggs and all the meat and all the stuff which ran parallel with the shop as a sort of air raid shelter, eventually though he decided he would open and he put me up on the roof, I volunteered of course, to be a spotter for if there is anything in the area to which I could then warn them and he would just leave the main door open. For warning purposes to the shop below I was, had a bell available at my discretion, to use as and when I thought fit. However, this came to an end when on one day I was watching contrails up in the sky, there didn’t seem to be any risk of any danger to the vicinity when all of a sudden, a bomb hit the Plaza cinema, the front of it, which in a short distance, in a straight line from where I stood, I disappeared down where joined the rest of them underneath, but that was the only bomb which killed the manager. But the manager stopped any future activities up there and not long after that I volunteered for the RAF although I had to continue working for quite a while because there was a [unclear] of aircrew and I volunteered to be a wireless operator air gunner. Eventually I was called up to the Royal Air Force in 1942 in September and we were, went to the usual kitting out place and from there we went on to Blackpool for our initial training, ITW, I suppose it was, here we had a mixture of physical exercises, a bit of general walking about town, listening to Morse both in plain language and in code and once you had reached the required speeds in both of those groups, you eventually were able to pass out for the first stage after about six weeks. You then had to follow on to the radio school that was [unclear] of you, which was number 1 radio school at Yatesbury. Here we had a bit longer, a small discipline [unclear], I don’t know, I was put on a charge twice anyway, I’m not quite sure why, now I will gloss over that but you were surprised you know, once you got onto a charge you had to be very careful not to get another one, or it seemed that to me anyway. I did go on the first parade near the guardroom, I put [unclear] four packs I was a very clever and put a blanket and things in the back, which made it considerably lighter. Turned up on the parade ground, the first thing the corporal did was punch the back of it, I suppose he’d had this happen to him or knew all about it many, many times but I was naïve I thought I was being rather clever. That produced another judge, anyway to escape from that, we eventually passed out and the next move was to Madley, where we were to do air to ground training, communication that is and we had two types of aircraft there, initially six of you went up in a, as I said, the remaining part of the course was to confirm the ability to communicate with the ground station from the air. We flew initially with five others plus the instructor taking turns at the radio sets. The aircraft was a DH Dominie. Next was carried out the same exercise, only this time it was just yourself and the pilot. The aircraft was a Proctor. To our collective surprise we were given seven days embarkation leave at the end of the course having passed successfully. In due course we were called up and on 13th November 1943 I was sailing on a P&O line, now a troop ship. My accommodation was situated on the lowest deck, namely H deck and was consisting of a mattress and a small base alongside for kit bag and clothing. We were soon on the move and we were joining up with a convoy, twelve other ships plus escort. Sea legs were required across the Bay of Biscay and beyond but eventually past Gibraltar and entered the calmer waters of the Mediterranean. So far the trip had been uneventful but it then changed when two sustained air attacks took place on the convoy. Being down on H deck, we can only imagine what’s happening and, happening above and listen very intently to everything, there was a barrage of gunfire, bomb explosions, bomb explosions produce sort of shock waves which came with a thud against the hull. I must admit that nearly every eye on the deck was focused on the one set of stairs which criss-crossed up to the various decks and that was our only outlet from where we were. Many years later I obtained a copy of the voyage report, which part of the captain statement contained the following: “the convoy was attacked twice off the North African coast, the first by thirty enemy planes using glide bombs and tornadoes and the second by twelve dive bombers. The Ryan seemed to be the target of the second attack and then four near misses, one within ten feet of the ship which splashed the boardside and covered the deck with oil. The ship was severely shaken and the pumps and the engine were in stop for a few moments”. We were down there, everybody was looking at these stairs, cause it just crisscrossed like that once. [coughs] One finished on one side of the boat, the other [coughs]
DB: [unclear] A little bit of information right [unclear] be great.
RS: Yeah. There were no further allowance and after fourteen days at sea since leaving England the Ryan entered the Suez Canal, passing the statue of Ferdinand de Lesseps, to dock a short distance away. Up early in the next day and packed and a short walk across to a station railway side. NAAFI tea and catering available before boarding the train to take us to Cairo. The journey from Port Said was long and tiring mainly due to the hard wooden seats and it was dark when we arrived at Cairo where we were bundled into waiting lorries which took us to a transit camp. It was tented accommodation, six to a tent just a pile [unclear] for sleeping. We were there for six weeks, waiting for number one course to move out of the newly opened gunnery school before I was able to pay a visit to the visit [unclear] and after that we moved hopefully to be our last part of the training. We were now heading for 13 air gunnery school at El Ballah in Egypt, it was tented accommodation recently allocated by number 1 course, and in which we settled in for another six weeks training. This comprised mostly of courses of ground faring and then airborne exercises with accompanying an aircraft towing the droves to the target in order to demonstrate air gunnery skills, we all had more than one trainee on board, coloured tipped bullets were allocated, so that individual markings on the drove could be connected to the individual person having fired them. This gave you the necessary efficiency to survive the course and at the end of it there was a badge, an air gunners badge together with a set of sergeant stripes which were automatically given at the end of training for aircrew duties. We were then transferred back to the suburb of Cairo at Heliopolis at number 5 ME. This time the accommodation was in the pre-war palace hotel, although all the furniture had been removed it was a pleasant change from tents. Eventually my name appeared on the notice board for operational training unit. This transpired to be at number 20 OTU Shandur in the Canal Zone. We travelled by train from Cairo to Port Tewfik and then by lorry to the airfield at Shandur. South Africans were also there undergoing training on Marauders. Before crewing up it was a case of travelling in your own category, training in your own category, I beg your pardon, and this involved flying in Baltimores, tests were carried out in Avro Ansons for gunnery and all went well and then it became forming of crews, which was quite a casual affair. I was walking along with a [unclear] when the pilot invited me to join him, which I accepted, meeting up with his navigator and upper gunner later. We got on well together and on nineteen occasions we did some training exercises before completing the course. We then departed for a week’s leave at Alexandria, we both [unclear] a house I think therefore and reporting back to 22 PTC transit camp in Cairo. While we were at Alexandria, my pal and myself found ourselves travelling and having a look around and in doing so we visited a street well known for the attention given to you by ladies, however it was fairly dark when we arrived and after hearing some whispering and shuffling about behind a barricade of [unclear] we decided it was best that we took to our heels. On one of the occasions when myself and my pal Jimmy visited the centre of Cairo as we did on several occasions after dodging the bootblacks as we called them, who’d threaten you with the polish if you didn’t have your shoes clean, we were walking along and hearing this terrific crescendo of noise, cavalcade of motorcycles came by as in v-shaped formation and behind them was travelling along was the young king Farouk and we had a good view as he motored on. After Alexandria, after a few more days at our posting to 22 PTC we found ourselves on our way to Naples. One morning we left for [unclear] airfield nearby, we were put into some waiting Dakota, on the way we stopped at, sorry, Benina and Tunis before alighting at Capodichino airfield at Naples. Things were very different. There was a general shortage, the children were ragged and starving and we settled down in a Villa Drusi I believe it was called. In the morning as a [unclear] formed outside of folk, young and old, waiting for anything that we left over from our meals. This was not uncommon and our pilots, at one stage where we had to be careful of thieves, he had his complete kit bag stolen while he was asleep. And the Americans would often have armed guards on the back of food vehicles. One of the [unclear] who gathered at the gates every morning offered to do my laundry, this was accepted and it always came back and she’d be rewarded with a bit of bread or something as well. She was very grateful. Not long after this, a squadron CO came to interview the pilot and the result of which were we were posted to 114 Squadron flying Boston aircraft, a medium bomber, American, operating at night. Not long after we packed our kit and set off to join the squadron, which was situated at that time at the American fifth army front at Tarquinia. Here we found the squadron under canvas and the first task was to surrect tents for ourselves in a field of thistles, which even [unclear] through the socks which we were wearing. An interview of the CO followed who explained the squadron’s duties and one morning I was roughly awaken and sent off with the advance party to a field which was at Cecina, being much nearer to the front line and the realities of war. With a lorry and ten days rations we slept under some trees which were mostly taped off as dangerous, in fact there was one who trod on a butterfly bomb and one of the ground staff later on, we also found ourselves that we could go down onto the beach for a swim, I more or less learned to swim there, however it was rather puzzling when after a few days we’ve been doing this the Americans turned up and starting having metal detectors along the beach, which we’ve been using. Anyway all was well. I don’t know how bad the danger was. 114 Squadron was a part of 232 Wing which contained also the Squadrons numbers 13, 18 and 55 and they were occupied in similar duties. We converted to Bostons, which took nearly a month due to heavy rain. In particular one heavy storm, at all four Squadron crews, ground and air, walking along the runway to dislodge stones had been thrown up by the rain, we carried out our first sortie from here which was bombing the marshalling yards at Medina, followed by a short recce. The main thrust of the Italian campaign was taking place on the Eastern side of the country where the Eighth Army were engaged in heavy fighting against Field Marshall Kesselring’s forces. We were set out various strategic defence lines as they retreated northwards. Once again we did another move, the crews were split up, the pilots flying the aircraft [unclear], our game was on the road party, the convoys several vehicles, sleeping the first night in the [unclear] post office and the second was Assisi. We reached Chiaravalle where we were to stay pending the completion of an airfield at Falconara. Before we left Cecina, we were visited firstly by Sir Winston Churchill, followed soon after by his Majesty King George the Sixth. Both were met by the American general Mark Clark, Commander of the American army. King George the Sixth stopped to walk along our lines but Winston Churchill seemed to disappear almost straight away. Chiaravalle was a very small town and the building we occupied was, used to house all of us was having a basement and a small yard for the cook house. After a few weeks with Christmas 1944 approaching we moved five miles to an empty building in Falconara close to the airfield in which we resumed our flying duties. We did our best to make ourselves comfortable and keep out of the cold. The first thing was to put in a fire and this was helped by someone from the MT section. It was ok when the wind was in the right direction otherwise we were smoked out. One item we were lacking was a wireless, so myself and a pilot from the same squadron hitchhiked around the area initially without any luck until we came across an army camp which was New Zealanders who were on the move home and they had a home-made wooden box set who reluctantly parted with it. Having a wireless was a great assistance to us and greatly helped as well by the member from the MT unit managed to fix us out with the necessary power. Our crew took some leave from here going back to Rome and while we were away we, the squadron lost a third of its crew, including two COs, which rather made us feel a bit subdued having not taken part in what obviously was a bad time. With the arrival of March, we heard that we would have moved nearer to the frontline and the next day the field we would have occupied was at Forli. Before we left Falconara, we carried out our twentieth sortie, which was a bit different aircrew, we were briefed directly on the airfield of Vicenza. The difference was taking off in daylight when previously we had flown only at night. Was a strange feeling to be so visible, dusk soon fell and nothing was seen but we were receiving some interest for the ground so we bombed the runway and went for home. For memory, the attention we were receiving from the ground was basically only one gun but it was getting very, very accurate firing arm piercing stuff which coloured green as you know.
DB: [unclear]
RS: Ok. With the rest of 232 Wing we arrived at Forli airfield were allocated with billet in an empty house on the main street, we set up our beds into red tents and helped with the mess necessary to be erected in the back yard. We were very busy there in support of the Eighth Army who had started a new offensive, many of our sorties were under radar control, one particular area where the army was held up near Argenta at 3 am on the 19th of April, forty-five crews took off at two minute intervals to assist for the breakthrough. For aircrew it was our fiftieth sortie. The area was a mass of smoke and the artillery were firing red marker shells to give the air crews and bomb aimers some idea of where they should be aiming their missiles, something like that. Oh, we are doing well now. Of course, did I take it off? Out of line of further twelve sorties, attacking ferry points, bridges, rivers and any moment generally we were then stood down. The day came and everyone joined in the celebrations which is very low key, as a crew we had been pleased, we were very pleased to be still around and thankful to the ground crews that had looked after us and in various aircraft. With regards to the ground crew, we often had a chat and a cigarette before the take-off and their reply on the V-E-Day was that the party of them we would a large floodlight down the street to a camp nearby parking outside the main gate they treated the Germans to a few patriotic songs. After weeks watching the German prisoners come through, the news came that we would have moved further north to an airfield in Aviano. Soon afterwards we flew in formation with the CO. And so ended the nights appearing into the darkness, throwing out flares by hand, dropping propaganda leaflets, and surrender invitations to the Italians. At Aviano, this was a large airfield situated on the Lombardy plains, well away from the road at the foot of the lower Alps. Our first job was to find a decent tent, wasn’t it always? And settle in for flying formation training. This was because the CO wanted to do a flypast over [unclear] in Southern France, obviously had some connection there, apart from that we did the old country exercise. This time Marshall Tito was making his demands over Trieste which resulted in the aircraft shuttling to and fro to bring the bomb ship, bomb dump up to the required level that may be needed. We visited a nearby village where local girls were taking care of her laundry and where local partisans were showing themselves probably more than they had done before now that it was at peace, theoretically and they were distinguished by coloured neckerchiefs. They were still patrolling in the mountains and at once I was invited to join them but I declined. On one visit we attended several of us a local dance and I was dancing around with a young lady who had a headscarf on and I eventually noticed that under the headscarf there was very little hair. To this end, I was apparently receiving the attention of one of the local young men and one of my pals tipped me off between dances which decided me that we would probably leave and we went back to the lorry and in due course got back. There was quite a bit of head shaving I believe going on in the village of the girls that had associated themselves with the Germans while they were there. One evening in the camp we were alarmed by a large explosion and columns of smoke came up from the bomb dump. German incendiary bombs had been set off by an Italian civilian who was severely injured. There were no camp railings, it was barely an open altogether so they were able to just wander about, though not many of them bothered to do so but he did apparently and the [unclear] dump for personal bombs was swiftly removed by many hands. And the same night we had a severe storm which hit the camp, leaving tents in a bit of a mess to say the least. I woke up looking at the heavens and feeling rain on my face. Sorry [unclear]. A few weeks later the CO pulled us all together to say that the squadron was now being posted to Aden and the other three squadrons were going to Greece. We thought then as we got the worst deal before of us. I was on leave when the main party left to go by sea but on my return I was put in charge of a small party and we flew down from Udine to Bari in two Marauders and we met up with others there who were still waiting for a boat. The Winchester Castle arrived at Taranto taking us direct to Aden. We thought we might be going to Egypt but we were right, we had to disembark at Port Said and go back to 22 PTC, we repeated the journey that we had carried out quite some time before. After that we waited for another ship which eventually arrived, I forget the name, which took us down the Red Sea to Aden and we joined up with the rest of the squadron at Khormaksar airfield. The squadron was posted there to releave 61 Squadron which slowly departed. Unfortunately a Wellington bomber belonging to them with eight people on board took off, circled the airfield, established radio contact, set off for Egypt but unfortunately nothing more was ever heard of them. Our crews flying carrying out ten more flights around the area, including one across to Somalia at a place called Hargeisa. On hearing the news that the squadron was to be disbanded and the Mosquitoes would be replacing our [ unclear] Bostons, we were to be split up into various duties in the area. In my case, I was put onto flying control, this included [unclear] the control towers at Khormaksar and shake off satellite airfield four miles further inland and two weeks at Masirah Island. When going into Masirah I travelled in a Dakota, I stopped at Salalah on the way, my only company in the, was a goat. I ended up then after that on the main traffic air control centre in the area at headquarters and then I awaited my clearance to return to England and demobilisation.
DB: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. The SS Alcantara arrived to accomod us for the return home, so at 1700 hours we were told that we had to be on board at 1900 hours, naturally we accomplished this. The boat made a short stop at Naples and then on the afternoon of the 17th of October 1946 we docked at Southampton, two [unclear] away from the Queen Mary. After approximately three years continuous service overseas it was with mixed emotions to see a double, red double decker bus passing along a nearby road. I was demobbed at 1 POC Kirkham Lancs and after that I set off to Hastings having warned my mother in advance. I finished up taking the milk train and arriving at Warrior Square Gardens at Saint Leonards on the train to be awokened up by a lady, grey-haired lady who at first I didn’t immediately see but this was of course my mother having spotted me snoozing away and being in uniform she was very lucky, I might’ve had to go onto Hastings otherwise and woke me up, quite a shock. But it was a lovely feeling.
Us: [unclear] 1952. [laughs]
RS: Returning home I didn’t go back to my job at [unclear] so I was in several others occupied that position before during the war and I finished up in RAC records office which was a place where, if they didn’t know what to find you with from the employment, they would put you up there and you filled a hole, I did nothing and they put me in a room which unfortunately was occupied by a bookie who spent all his time going around this very large building collecting bets. Nobody ever came into the room I did a few letters if I remember, but eventually got away from it and found other employment. Strangely enough this employment was back at the Gypsum Mines which my mother had not wanted me to go to at all, but this time I suppose she thought that I wasn’t qualified to do anything other than going down the mine but this time a friend of mine had given me the whisper that the current job was available, I applied and I got it and I worked there and I was trained by an ex-navy lieutenant who also had been demobbed and spent mostly twelve years there. At that time we were, where were we living, Doris? My wife, I’m just asking a question now cause I forget the answer.
US: Silverhill, I should think.
RS: At Silverhill, we were living at Silverhill [unclear] and we used to cycle something like eleven miles there and back, or I did, not my wife, with my mate too, who also worked there, was about twenty two miles a day, I put that down the fact my legs are still going there, nearly ninety three. After that I felt that I could do better on my own which was a mistake really. I took another job in a garage, also sold cars for hire and this sort of stuff and left there after about a year. One thing I should mention is that I married my wife Doris in March 1952 and in 1953 both of us with the two friends took a coach from Hastings central and went up to London to witness what we could of the coronation of our present queen. To do so we had to sit in the rain in one of the London main streets, I forget which one, Bond Street or Regent Street and the happiest memory was seeing Queen Charlotte drive by unexposed by any in a carriage, waving to the crowds whereas everybody else was in closed carriages.
DS: Lovely.
RS: You’re alright?
DS: Yeah, absolutely fabulous. No, that’s fine.
US: [unclear] in Kent, not Lincolnshire.
DS: No, don’t worry. Yeah, don’t worry. Yeah, no, cause I know some of the places as well, cause I, no, no, don’t worry about it, I mean they may not use that little bit anyway, so, it’s no problem.
RS: No, no. Yeah, that’s right.
DS: No, that’s brilliant, lots of little bits that they can pick out of that.
RS: Yeah, that’s right. They can actually do that then, they cut their own tape of it.
DS: Yeah, what they’ll do is they’ll take the bits out that they want and put them all together and that sort of thing, so, yeah, there’s lots of little bits in there that, you know, the whole point is to let you just talk.
RS: Yeah. That’s it, yeah.
DS: So that you just say things. A bit like your, you said about your friend and you going down with [unclear], they’ll love that sort of thing. And the little sort of side you put in and that sort of thing. It’s all extra interest.
RS: Obviously [unclear] at the same time.
DS: No, of course. No, no, no, that’s fine, I mean.
US: [unclear] well, I could have said that.
DS: Well, [laughs] that’s always the same, there’s always, afterwards there’s always stuff that you think of that you could say but I wouldn’t. [file missing]
RS: One item I forgot to mention was a fact that shortly after joining up, at Blackpool I chummed up with a Scotch fellow by the name of Jimmy Sneddon. One thing I could have mentioned which presumably is not unusual but I thought it was, was the pal I mentioned when we were in Alexandria and doing a walkabout, we actually got together when we were at Blackpool, we went through obviously not unheard of to do what you are training together but after that we were both posted on 114 Squadron, we joined up with two a crew each of which the two pilots had also trained together and this meant that we kept on leave, we were going together and all the events, and he was with me when we arrived at Aden, we travelled together in the boat then in the Red Sea, but he had a class B posting and was able to get away from Aden a few months before I was able to, but he was a good friend and we met up twice after the war, it was a long time afterwards mind you because we drifted apart and you sort of lost track with everybody but it was good to have someone like it on your side, someone who could deal with all the day events and go on leave with, talk about, unfortunately we smoked too much and I’m suffering for it. End of story. After becoming a sergeant, which was automatic in those days, I carried on flight sergeant and when I left Aden I was a warrant officer and pride to wear the badge on my sleeve.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Saunders
Creator
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Denise Boneham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASaundersR160616
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:43:53 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Saunders joined the RAF as a wireless operator rear gunner and served on 114 Squadron during the war. Remembers, as a little boy, seeing the airship R 101 and the Hindenburg flying in the distance. Describes his training in England and in Egypt at various stations and being posted to Italy afterwards. Mentions various episodes: the troop ship being attacked twice; seeing king Farouk passing by in a convoy in the streets of Cairo. Recounts various episodes of his service time in Italy: wartime hardships, the Prime Minister’s and the King’s visit to their airfield, joining locals at a village festival. Tells of how his squadron supported the Eight Army in the Battle of the Argenta Gap. Remembers then being posted to Aden, where he was put in charge of flight control. After the war, mentions going to London to see the queen’s coronation.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Great Britain
Italy
Oman
Mediterranean Region
Egypt--Alexandria
Egypt--Suez
Egypt--Cairo
Italy--Naples
Oman--Masirah Island
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
114 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-26
bomb dump
bombing
Boston
C-47
demobilisation
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1145/11701/AStevensonWR151202.2.mp3
cdf64c51040d531c7161ab2d8c4fb941
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stevenson, Walter Raymond
W R Stevenson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Walter Stevenson DFM (b. 1922, 1080597, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner in a Wellington with 621 Squadron in East Africa and Aden, and with RAF Costal Command. Walter helped to bring a number of war criminals to justice. He was demobbed in August 1946 and returned to his pre-war occupation of blacksmithing.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-12-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Stevenson, WR
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CB: This story relates to Walter Stevenson and part of the air force career he had resulted in the surrender of a German U-boat and the eventual death by hanging of the captain for war crimes.
[recording paused]
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and it is the 2nd of December 2015. And I’m with Walter Stevenson DFM and his wife Lillian. And we’re going to talk about his experiences in life but with particular interest in the war. So, Walter could you start off by talking about your earliest recollections? The family. Where you went to school.
WS: Yes. My earliest recollection is quite vivid. The age I wasn’t sure about but I was told many times when we came back from the hospital that I’d been away from home. So I was, spent x number of weeks in a hospital at Middlesbrough which is twenty odd miles from Merton. And I went there because me father had gone there on the say, Friday. And I went away on the Sunday. All I know is I saw the funny building outside vividly. And the nurse with, I’d never seen a nurse before. And I just probably went to sleep. And when I woke up I was in, I was in a ward where the matron sat talking, and father tells me this afterwards, ‘He’s too young to be on his own.’ Three wards in Middlesbrough. First World War casualties. TB. Special one for TB and a special one for [pause] TB. It’ll come in a minute. TB. Oh what I was in for? I’m forgetting the bit I was in for. I had smallpox. The biggest killer of mankind. Yeah. And father did. The two of us you know. The rest of the family which was mam, mam, me brother Tommy, older, and me sister Mair and sister Ivy. They were at home so why they didn’t get it I don’t know. I got it. And how long in there for? Sorry. The people would have to make their mind up and tell. Two types of, two types of smallpox. Very old, major and minor. The major was a killer. And the minor — comme ci, comme ca. You won some and lost some. Which I’ve later researched and found, I’ve always thought I must have had minor with dad because you can see by my face no pox. Well, it left you terribly scarred if, whether you died anyway. So —
CB: Okay. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going.
WS: And how long we were in for I can’t say. And coming out and then I was spoiled. Oh my mother had then had a, not while I was in there but shortly after we had another baby. Harry. And he died early. Very early. Six months or six weeks. And again I remember that vividly. Whether I was three or three and a half then, or four. I don’t know. I don’t think I was at school. And the first time I recommend of, I remember of that was father carrying the box out. You know. You don’t carry them today do they? Just a little white box. I don’t know where he was going. No, no burial. He just walked up to the cemetery. That’s what happened in 19 — three years on top of my age.
CB: 1925. Yeah.
WS: ’25. Say ’25. And that was the end. And then you lose it. Quite a enjoyable, I I liked the colliery very much. Started school at five. Did like all schooling, liked all headmasters and marks. Again which I fought with over in the book. Could have done better. You could have done better. She could have done better. We all could. I know what it’s for. It’s to encourage you on. I understand that. But I didn’t, I didn’t do bad and I’m big enough to put it down in a book. I wonder how many others are. Not many. Oliver has wrote his CV now because being cleverer than me he thinks he should have wrote a book but he hasn’t. He’s given a lot of advice in books but, but he hasn’t wrote a book yet. He’s left it a bit too late now.
CB: What age did you leave school?
WS: And I left school at fourteen. Oh yes, you’re going to lose track. I lose track. Fourteen. Yes. I played on. I was playing football for the school eleven so I carried on. So it’s fourteen on top of twenty two. ’36 and a bit longer. Purely to play football. Not to worry about. And father said the best thing you can do [pause] And drink your tea before it gets cold.
LR: I’ll make another one. I could do with another one anyway.
WS: And it does doesn’t it? She can carry two. Very good. Right. Oh, father said, you’d better didn’t know what I wanted. I didn’t. There’s one thing I definitely knew at fourteen. One is I wanted to be a footballer. I still had that here and here. And father said, ‘You haven’t got a job yet?’ ‘No.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’d better start looking.’ He knew well there was only one place to go and that was the mine. I wasn’t too keen on that. Not even as a fourteen year old. And I got a job in the butcher’s at Merton. Skillbeck’s. Which I liked. Riding a bike. Cleaning the floors. But it had one drawback. Working Saturdays ‘til 9 o’clock at night. Eight in morning till nine at night. Slavery. Absolute slavery. How people can. Fridays was till 8 o’clock. 6 o’clock every. Eight till six. 7 o’clock, 9 o’clock on a Saturday. 9 o’clock. Unbelievable isn’t it? And so I thought well, so I had to go cap in hand, say to dad, ‘Could you find me a job?’ I knew he could. He was a traffic manager so he had a little bit of pull. And he did. Got me a job as a blacksmith apprentice which I started about sixteen because I was playing junior football and I couldn’t play football working on a Saturday. [pause] And then I worked at the colliery from sixteen. Could have only have been two years. Eighteen. And I thought I don’t like it because even though I was a blacksmith we had to go down. Normally, blacksmithing you’d think it’s on an anvil all day wouldn’t you? No. That’s old fashioned. On the colliery there’s two types. There’s the person who goes down and does just shoes. Makes the shoes at bank and then puts them on the ponies down there. That’s one form of smithing. The other form of smithing was on the, on the bank until there was an accident or summat wrong with the coal cutting machines which we serviced and you had to go down. Sometimes, sometimes two, three mile in. Two mile in by. I did not like that at all. Hate wouldn’t be too strong a word. I hated it. But I did it until eighteen. The day I was eighteen I went to, decided — I decided. Not mother or father. I did. I was very clever then. I decided I would, the RAF has got to be a better job than going two miles under the North Sea. I didn’t think that was funny at all. Miners liked it and they did it. Terrible. Terrible job. So, I, I went with a friend of mine who was a joiner. Apprentice joiner. A bit, he was a bit older than me so he could go in at that time. But I had to wait for me eighteenth birthday because in them days, contrary to a lot of lads from London I’ve met, ‘Oh I joined up when I was seventeen,’ I said you must have had —
CB: They didn’t.
WS: You must. No. But they add a bit on you know. To the — I said, ‘Well, we couldn’t do that. We had to show the sergeant at Durham our birth certificate.’ Well you had to. Simple as that. So I signed in and that’s, and that’s the day I joined up and the date then was [pause ] it’s in the book.
CB: 1940. October 1940.
WS: Was it? Well, yeah that’s, that’s what it would be. October. And a new world to me. So I said, ‘Well, we’re off Charlie.’ I’ve just found out lately why, I did see him once after the war. He came to see me in Chalfont. There was something funny. Mind you he spent, that was his fault, he spent four years in Pershore or somewhere. In, well, when, when we’d got attested in Padgate you get attested for all. Have you — is your eyesight good? And can you breathe and can you speak? And all the, all the rigmarole. You know what it is. And before we went to bed that night I said, ‘Oh good, Charlie,’ I said, ‘I’m going home.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m not.’ He said, ‘I’m going to Barry.’ Barry? I’d never heard of Barry. I’ve heard of Bury but not of Barry. Barry? So he went. ‘Oh, why is that?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘They’ve decided I’m going to be a fitter.’ ‘They decided? You went as a W/op AG with me.’ Then I let it, and then I blew because I was happy to go back because I was playing football anyway. And he was in Barry and then I didn’t see him for five years. The places he was around. Pakistan and wherever. And from the, from Padgate back home until I eventually was called up at Blackpool which I enjoyed. I enjoyed it. It’s in the book. The RAF might agree or disagree my feelings. The RAF to me was good when it was very good. Like the boy, the little boy. He’s bad when he’s very, he’s naughty. Good, bad and indifferent wasn’t it? It was. My, me first day at Blackpool I think I got in trouble. Well, I didn’t get in trouble because they didn’t get catch me. But they would have caught me. But I went to the toilets and I had to stop in there ‘til they’d gone away. All I’d lost was me hat. I don’t. You know. You’re supposed to stick it up —
CB: In your belt. Yeah.
WS: Or the front, ent you? Aye. Well, it must have dropped out. So then that’s when me, and that’s when me title for me war years because that was me. That was my, what do you call them? It’s so true it’s untrue. Yes. I thought that was funny. I thought that. My daughter got this. That wasn’t what I wanted at all. I wanted, I wanted that. I wanted that. A bit smaller. And I wanted that. I was going to put it and get it SIB to get it--
CB: You mean redesign the face?
WS: Yeah.
CB: Redesign the face of the book.
WS: Yes. I did.
CB: Yeah. Thanks Lily.
WS: Yes. But I’m surprised that people are prepared to give that money to the Association so that I’m happy with. It’s, it’s but I thought that was catchy. But I did, I put five titles. I didn’t do that. But anyway. Thank you, mam.
CB: So from Blackpool?
WS: I miss that.
CB: Yeah. At Blackpool.
WS: That’s at Blackpool.
CB: That was square bashing. Square bashing.
WS: Wonderful. But that’s, you haven’t got that right. Square bashing. Marching. No. No. No. I didn’t march from day one. What height are you?
CB: PT. PT.
WS: Yeah. What height are you? What height are you?
CB: Five ten.
WS: Five ten. Oh right. That’ll do. Five ten’ll do. What height am I?
CB: Five six.
WS: Aye. And that’s pushing it a bit. In the RAF, I think I must have had high heels. They made, in my records which I got from Lincoln the people who did the records there should have done better. I would have marked their card. I’ve got it here somewhere. I don’t know where it is. It’s a proper record of me. Five foot four and a half.
CB: Oh right.
WS: So, I was supposed to, at Blackpool which I never did and never did anywhere else either. It’s very like that but I got pulled up there. First day there, ‘You in the middle. Bobbing up and down like a cork in the ocean.’ Maltese sergeant. I thought chh. Well, I couldn’t march. How can I march behind you? So, I used to get in the middle didn’t I? You learn quick. And it never did work and I just used to put up with it. But I, I, they weren’t going to beat me. They did. No. They wouldn’t beat me but I kept on fighting them which I enjoyed immensely. All in the book and I write it down. I did. I liked, I liked the thought of them trying to beat me. If I’d been five foot ten I could have joined the Durham Light Infantry and I would have been a hero. Killed them. All the Germans. I didn’t but I could only do what I could do. My pace. I read in the papers since this year, last year how could, she was in the WAAF. How could she keep up with —? How could anybody as small as five foot. Lil was just five foot. And she was, women have got, they’ve been paid awards for overstretching. Trying to — well it’s understandable isn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
WS: But they didn’t understand it with me. Why is that? I felt like saying, ‘I joined up to fly,’ I said, ‘You get somebody else marching.’ But you know the — did you go to Blackpool?
CB: No.
WS: No.
CB: No.
WS: Lovely place. I’d never been there before. Well, the furthest I’d been is Sunderland. Why I went to Durham I don’t know because the sergeant made me sick. His first words were, ‘Where are you from?’ Well, you’ve got to tell them. ‘Merton.’ ‘What do you do?’ You didn’t do anything at Merton. Only the pit. So he knew that. So clever like, you know. I said, ‘Yeah, but we’ve come to join up.’ ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘Yeah,’ but he said, ‘We need blacksmiths and joiners.’ I said, ‘No. We’ve come to fly,’ I said. ‘We want to fly.’ He kept on and on, this sergeant. I swear he had nowt better to do. When we said aircrew, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘They all want to.’ Course I was a bit slop. I looked around. I said, ‘There’s not many behind here, sergeant.’ I gave him his rank. Don’t know why I did. Just taking the mickey. ‘Alright. Alright,’ he said. But there was nobody in there so he couldn’t say everybody wanted to join the RAF.
CB: No.
WS: And then from then Blackpool. And then my war years at Blackpool.
CB: What did you actually do at Blackpool? What did you do at Blackpool?
WS: Oh, in Blackpool. Twelve words a minute. Twelve words a minute.
CB: This was the, when you started doing Morse code.
WS: Yeah. Wireless was, as well you might know. You know. But I was quite good at it. I didn’t find it, I’m prepared to put everything in black and white. I’m prepared to put all me, they’re all in there. All the, all what I did. And I didn’t do bad. But not because I was clever. I did it because I liked it and it was different. And the only thing I didn’t like was after leaving Blackpool, I didn’t like it at Blackpool because I had to do guard one night. That’s all. I did a guard one night and they [pause] this is a joke. So true it’s untrue. Yeah. I couldn’t believe it happened in the RAF. The sergeant walked down with the people like. Down the ranks. And I’m sitting like this because I wasn’t very, I wasn’t keen on shaving if I went up. ‘Stand up airman.’ How you can stand up when you wanted a shave I don’t know but that’s what they wanted you to do. And they said, they go in a huddle, the sergeant and the PO. This was for an all night guard. And one of the big officers were guarding a hotel in Blackpool. ‘Come here.’ I thought it was a bit rough how he shouted at me like, but [laughs] I knew what it was for like you know. You haven’t shaved. Or your buttons. Well, I used to clean them like that. Rub them. And he said, the officer, you stick man. Well, I could have broke down in tears. Me? Stick man. I was about the untidiest, the poorest dressed man in the RAF. I wasn’t very good at dress. Mick used to say, ‘You look a mess,’ And even said, my mate in London. I said, ‘Well it’s, I’ve done my best but I’m not, I’m not meant to be smart at five foot four.’ [laughs] And I said, ‘Stick man?’ ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘But I’ll get you. Don’t get too cocky for your — ’ so I just stepped out and I was stick man. Which was unbelievable but it pleased me because I didn’t have to stand like a twit outside the, one of the hotels. You didn’t do anything anyway. I was to meet further problems at Yatesbury. There I did well. I did. I passed out quite well at twelve words a minute. A little bit of technical work but nothing much other than —
CB: You got promotion.
WS: It started. It started after three days when I’d do the variation in me book. It’s again my daughter didn’t do it the way I wanted it. I do about six pages which I’d done sitting here. And I think I was better to do when I went to hospital in Middlesborough. So, I put that in the middle of the Blackpool one although I don’t leave Blackpool, you’ve got to read it. You’ve got to read me about six, I don’t know how much, it’s not six pages in there but it’s in six pages in A2s which I wrote. You then take your mind back from 1941 to [pause] from 1941 take your mind back to 1925 when I was in Middlesborough.
CB: In a hospital. Yeah.
WS: Middlesborough. Then I write about the people and the research I’d done on smallpox.
CB: Right.
WS: For want of something better to do and I got a lot of help from people in the hospital there and how much it cost and all that then. And about Louis Pasteur. I was interested in reading about him. He was one of the good things I liked. You’re not French are you? You’ve not got any French [laughs] Well, me and the French is not [laughs] He then decided that I would come back again. But I’d never leave Blackpool. But after three days there, ah that’s when that started.
CB: We’re talking about the title of the book.
WS: That started. Just a title. I didn’t think anything of it other than but I thought but it‘s catchy. It’s a bit like somebody sneezing or Japanese. I don’t know what it’s like. “Airman roll your sleeves up and shut up.” Going in the building which is what I wanted on the front pages of my book. Which I haven’t got. The queue was, how many is in a squad? Fifty? I think there was about fifty. There’s a photograph of about fifty. Till it come to me. And you know smallpox is a scratch rather than you, you’d know more than I did. The rest is needles and that’s bad enough. They sling them into you like. Five, six and then the sergeant said, ‘You can have the weekend off.’ Well, you know you can just about make your bed in Blackpool. Mind you the beds were very good in private digs. But when it come to the scratch bit then my ruffles came up. He’s sitting there and I’ve got me, me list from me mam which is sacrament. She can be one thing of all things. She wouldn’t lie. That’s, that wasn’t in her. And she taught me not to lie. And so did father. They said, you’re going through your list. Chicken pox? Yes. Something? Yes. Other disease? Yes. Smallpox? No. ‘Yes,’ I said. ‘No. Smallpox. You’ve got chicken, you’ve had chicken pox.’ ‘Smallpox,’ I said. And then the queues were still waiting and I’m still —I’ve had smallpox and they’ve told mam or dad it won’t scab up. Well it was like talking to this here. And that, and that didn’t do my hackles any good. And they said, then the sergeant‘s voice come over, he was only about there but I can see him, nasty smirk on his face, ‘Roll your sleeves airman and shut up.’ So, you’re going to be scratched whether you liked it or you didn’t like it or the doctor was kind. He said, ‘That’s alright,’ he said, ‘Just come back if it scabs up.’ But of course it didn’t so they were right in that respect. But then the gentleman from Bristol University who’s wrote a wonderful book, he’s done a bit of research and they fight one another you see. A lot of doctors. And all right it didn’t quite work like that. Some people did live with it and some people didn’t. And when I wrote I said well I must have had the — what do you call them? A nice gentleman. He was the top man at Bristol University. He’s in, there’s a smallpox hospital quite near. Well, there was a place I was going to go and I’ve never got there. He said he would come up and see me. I don’t think it’s a very nice museum to see. No. I wouldn’t. That’s what I thought. But I would have wanted a look around. And it went on and I knew at the next station it would be the same again so I tried to fight it and I tried to win that one but I didn’t win that one. And from then the end of Blackpool. Wonderful six months roughly was it? About six months. Strangely enough a lot of navigators went to —
[pause]
WS: The place just up the coast of Blackpool.
CB: Morecambe. Morecambe.
WS: No. Not up direct. Along past. The long past.
CB: Okay.
WS: Instead of going north Blackpool, go south Blackpool.
CB: Oh right.
WS: Up there.
CB: Yeah. Okay. Well, there’s Lytham St Annes. That sort of thing.
WS: Lytham St Annes.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Oliver. I think he, he went to Lytham.
CB: Did he? Yeah. Yeah.
WS: Did a bit. But of course there was an aerodrome up there wasn’t there?
CB: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
WS: Yeah.
CB: So the point of my question was what you did during the initial training. So when you were at Blackpool —
WS: Yes.
CB: An important point was getting all the inoculations done.
WS: Yes.
CB: Which is what you’ve just been talking about. Then there was a certain amount of marching that had to be done.
WS: Yeah. Which I wasn’t good at.
CB: Then there was physical fitness. What else was there?
WS: Oh aye. Yeah. But I liked that. I did like that. I liked the, I liked that part because I like football.
CB: Yeah.
WS: So I wanted to be as fit as possible for when I came out.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Assuming I was coming out.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Didn’t know where I was going but, yes. Torn between being a perfect airman.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Which, I’m sorry. [laughs] I failed miserably. Nothing out of a hundred.
CB: And then you went to Yatesbury.
WS: Yatesbury.
CB: And at Yatesbury was the place where you learned W/T.
WS: From twelve.
CB: Yeah.
WS: From twelve.
CB: Twelve words.
WS: To twenty five.
CB: Yeah. Twenty five. Right.
WS: Twenty five.
CB: On Morse code.
WS: Yeah. We had that. That was just the Morse. But the good thing about it was I learned a lot about wireless which I found very interesting and I did well there apart from the damned Maltese sergeant. Going to war. He said, he was the one who said I’m going along there like a cork in the ocean. But I’d just come down from Merton with a kit bag on me shoulder and I wasn’t equipped to do that. I wasn’t a massive man.
CB: So from —
WS: And then I got —
CB: How long were you at Yatesbury?
WS: Six months roughly.
CB: Okay. Right. Then where did you go?
WS: There. It’s all in there.
CB: It’s in there. Okay right.
WS: Yatesbury.
CB: Well we’ll look it up in a minute.
WS: Yeah.
CB: But at Yatesbury did you do any flying training or not?
WS: No. Because, because the RAF in their infinite wisdom were clever enough to fill the, fill the stations up with potential [pause] potential W/op AGs. So it was just my bad luck. No it wasn’t. It was my good luck. My good luck. First time I’d had any luck in the RAF. All the rest had been bad. It had, they were producing at the schools more W/op AGs than aircraft for them but it should. They did, some did fly from there. So that’s when I, that’s when the RAF, the button, summat went wrong with the system. You then went in at the end of the year and said where would you like to go because you’ve got to go out on a station until there’s enough flying schools . Which was at Mona eventually, when we got to. So you went. I remember it and now I remember this vividly, ‘Where’d you like to go airman?’ I said, ‘The north preferably.’ Knowing full, that’s where I made me first mistake. I should have said Cornwall. And damn me they would have sent me there. But it worked. I said the north east and they sent me to Thornaby. Wonderful. Thornaby was, that’s when I met me first Halton brat. Wonderful lad. Corporal. Wireless bloke. And I went, I was in private digs in Thornaby. Which the address was Thornaby, you know. They did funny things didn’t they? The Post Office. It’s not Thornaby. Thornaby in Yorkshire. It’s that side the water. Yorkshire. Telephone number, the address for mam was blah blah blah RAF Thornaby, RAF, RAF Thornaby. Stockton. County Durham. Well, I couldn’t get nothing better. It was about twenty six miles from home. I could hitchhike home at night. Go to a dance at [unclear ] Lane. Come back in the train in the morning and be back in time because it was no, I could do, the corporal said, ‘What you want to do you do.’ He was, there was nothing he didn’t know about wireless because he did the correct training at Halton. And he was very very kind to me. I wish I’d remembered — he was a London lad but I forget his name. Shame. And —
CB: What did you do at Thornaby?
WS: Thornaby.
CB: What did you do there?
WS: Nothing. Well, I was supposed to be learning wireless. So we had, the squadron was 608 Squadron. It was two, two parts. 608 Squadron and C OTU. It was an OTU for Canadians on Hudsons. So that was, that was an advantage of a different radio set for me to learn. And he, he virtually, I went out with some of the ground staff lads and if they wanted help I couldn’t do much. But, but if, if anybody was flying, as you see in the log book I did quite a few in, I did quite a few just short trips. A bit scary too because they were sprog pilots. A sprog short trip. We got lost one day when we were going to Scotland. If you read the — it’s in there isn’t it? That’s sometime when I lost my book. About then. But, anyway, most enjoyable. First time I’d had a pint of beer from a padre. That’s a good record isn’t it? That was the second one I’ve had from you. Thank you very much. I was going to see this, the sports officer about football. And I knocked on the door. ‘Aye,’ he said. ‘Come in.’ He was a Catholic priest. [unclear] And he, he said, ‘Do you want a drink?’ I said, ‘Yes please.’ I thought to get a free drink from a padre is pretty unique. And he said, ‘Stand there. I’ll get the officer for you.’ And I thought that was very kind. And the trips were, the trips were nice but I didn’t know whether they were dangerous or not because I’d never done any flying. That’s me first. But they were all — have you got it?
CB: No.
WS: Oh. Let me. I’ll [pause] It could have been in my other [pause] oh dear.
CB: Right.
WS: That’s, that’s —
CB: So we’re looking in the logbook now.
WS: Silloth. No. That’s Silloth.
CB: That’s at Silloth.
WS: We want Thornaby. Thornaby. Yeah. They were all just scratchy ‘til we got lost one day and we went to Paisley. I said, ‘Well what’s gone wrong?’ And they were nice lads. All Canadian crews. We just went out into Paisley one night and then back the next morning. So they, they could still fly a bit.
CB: So you were at Thornaby for some time.
WS: Well, typical RAF they said you’ll only be there a few weeks. Turned out to be one year. So it’s a one year of me. Of me. But it was, as you can see I got quite a few flying hours in.
CB: Yeah.
WS: I don’t know whether it helped me or not. Some were good. Some were bad.
CB: We didn’t talk about your air gunnery. So after you’d done the wireless operation where did you learn your air gunnery?
WS: Well, from there I was called to —
CB: Ah. After this —
WS: Yeah. From when, when we went back I expect I had leave from there. Yorkshire. The island.
CB: In Yorkshire?
WS: No. In Wales.
CB: Oh Anglesey.
WS: Anglesey.
CB: Right.
WS: Thank you. And that was an experience in itself. You said that you’ve got Anglesey. Oh that’s right. That’s all right. Yeah.
CB: That it?
[pause]
WS: Silloth
CB: Air gunnery was Silloth was it?
WS: So that’s, that’s where my logbook goes for a —
CB: This is because you’ve got interruptions in your log book.
WS: Hmmn?
CB: This is because you have interruptions in your log book.
WS: Yes. Well, because I lost it.
CB: Yes.
WS: I lost it, you see. See, because I’ve got it down there. There’s my [pause] this’ll scare you to death then.
CB: The point about this is that Walter is good at losing things. Including his logbook.
WS: Yeah.
CB: So we’re now on to Mona in North Wales.
WS: Yes.
CB: Right.
WS: Mona. I thought that was different. That’s right in the middle of northern — have you been there?
CB: No.
WS: It’s dead in the middle.
CB: Really. Yeah.
WS: You know where the prince went?
CB: Yes.
WS: That’s on the isle, that’s on the end.
CB: Right.
WS: It’s still not far by island standards but, but you used to get a garry or summat to Mona. I only had one day off a week. Actually, Heather’s son’s just went up there to get his BA.
CB: Oh.
WS: And he went to Bangor.
CB: Yeah.
WS: We used to go to Bangor once a week.
CB: The interesting thing about your Number 3 Air Gunnery School at Mona is that all the pilots are Polish.
WS: All Polish.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. All Polish. Very good. We never, we never had any problems. Well, one problem when they tell you at school, ‘You could have done better.’ There’s one trip there that’s pretty outstanding. See. People could invent summat, a talking glass.
CB: Yeah.
WS: They’d make a fortune [pause] On —
[pause]
CB: Right. We’re looking in the logbook.
WS: On the, on the 24th of February 1943.
CB: Yeah.
[pause]
WS: On 24th of February.
CB: This is when you did an outstanding gunnery job.
WS: Well, there were so many things went wrong. We started in the morning. Have I got the hours down right? Ah, 10:50. 10:50. 10:50. That’s ten to eleven in the morning. And [pause] and on ‘til the 28th of February. Same trip. Same. Same, I don’t know if it was the same pilot or not. I think it was the same pilot. Up, down, up, up. You’re supposed to — it takes about a half an hour each. Less than that. And these are the things that can go wrong. And of course there’s like the aircraft that tows the drogue. What do you call them?
CB: What was the plane you were flying? An Anson was it?
WS: No.
CB: Or a Wellington?
WS: No. We weren’t. No. I think it, I think it was the horrible one. I think it was the horrible one. The, the Botha.
CB: Oh.
WS: Yeah. Nobody liked that.
CB: No.
WS: It was alright for training. But this, this was a one day trip. Most of them last an hour a bit. An hour and a bit. An hour. Less than an hour. We started here. Up, down because there was no drogue.
CB: Right. To shoot at.
WS: That’s the first.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Up down. In the same, the same, guns u/s. Up, down towering aircraft u/s. That’s the one. Then no, no aircraft. All that in, it’s a one day trip and it lasted, it lasted [pause] was it the 28th? Yeah. The 28th 12:50 and it went on. It went on about 5 o’clock at night.
CB: Right.
WS: For one trip.
CB: Yeah.
WS: For one.
CB: Because of things going wrong.
WS: Somebody should have done better there. Good job I wasn’t marking their card.
CB: So there you went. Then you went to Hooton Park. What did you do at Hooton Park?
WS: Hooton Park. I never knew what it was. I know what, I know what it is. And they had Bothas again. Did you ever? You didn’t fly in Bothas?
CB: No. No.
WS: Frightening. Absolutely frightening. But they just weren’t any good for anything. We got up and down with them but they had a bad name. Hooton Park. That’s in the Wirral Peninsula. Yes. Yeah. That was interesting that was.
CB: Right. Okay. So when did you go to the OTU? So you qualified as a gunner.
WS: Oh yeah.
CB: And qualified as a, you’d already done your radio operator
WS: Anybody could qualify as a gunner. It’s only, it’s — but yes. You had to do it, you had to do it.
[doorbell rings]
WS: That’s my daughter.
CB: Oh right shall I do? Oh she’s there.
WS: Julie. Two hours late. Is mam there?
CB: Okay. We’ll stop. We’ll stop a mo.
WS: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Okay. So you were saying? How did you feel about this? About the bombing.
WS: Well, yes, because I just, you live in an alcove in a colliery don’t you? You know how it is. And, and if ever there was it was a reserved occupation. None of us need ever join up. Well, you know it’s all volunteers anyway flying. But you didn’t have to join up. You were reserved like policemen. And them that didn’t want to go and dodged it. There was a few of them about. But I just thought I wanted to get in it but I didn’t want to go there. I didn’t want to go where the sun shines because I don’t like the sunshine. I abhor the sunshine. And I went to the hottest place on earth.
CB: But you were talking about bombing just then. And you felt you wanted to pay back the bombing.
WS: Yes. Yes.
CB: Go on.
WS: Yes. Well, but of course then I wasn’t sent to Bomber Command.
CB: No.
WS: That’s what’s in, that’s the bit that annoys me. I didn’t want to go to, I didn’t want to go to Japan or the Far East or Middle East. They’re not, it was the Germans I wanted to eliminate. They wanted to eliminate us so I thought I would like to eliminate them. Hitler or no Hitler. Whoever. They’re trying to make him a goodie now but he was no goodie. No goodie. The words come out ‘cause I grew up you see sixty fifty, reading the paper mostly for football interests but I can still see the photograph, “This is my last territorial claim in Europe.” Lies. Lies. Lies. And of course they’re still lying now. And that’s sad. Very sad. You can’t listen to liars who change your mind and changing and liars and then he marched in another one and keep on and on and on. That wasn’t nice in nineteen — to me it wasn’t anyway. Whether other people viewed it I don’t know. But [pause] but enjoyable at Hooton Park.
CB: So what --
WS: It was different.
CB: That was the radio school. Then you went to Silloth for the OTU.
WS: Yes. The, that was, that was the start of television. But —
CB: What? Gee?
WS: Yeah. Well, you know with the stripe down the middle and it was alright for —
CB: This was for navigation.
WS: It was alright for ten minutes, a quarter of an hour. We were supposed to be looking at it when we’re W/op AGs. We had three, you know in the Wellington and then we just showed it around. In fact I just come off the wireless set. I’d been on the wireless for two hours on May the 2nd. Then I went in the second dickie’s seat when I saw what I thought, never mind all the clever people, ‘Oh you saw the submarine.’ No I didn’t. I saw a long black object on this waterbed.
CB: Okay.
WS: Nothing else. Nothing new. Nothing. But people say, make it all sorts of stories up. Back to Silloth. It was interesting learning how the, you could pick up things.
CB: This is on the radar.
WS: But I —
CB: The H2S.
WS: Yeah.
CB: This is on the H2S radar.
WS: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
WS: That whatever.
CB: Okay.
WS: Whatever it was. And then from there to —
CB: What were you, what were you flying when you did that at Silloth?
WS: At Silloth?
CB: When you were using this equipment. So this —
WS: No, we used that equipment at [pause] at, on the Wirral Peninsula.
CB: Yeah. Okay.
WS: On the —
CB: When you were at Hooton Park? When you were at Hooton Park.
WS: It was Hooton Park.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Bothas at Hooton Park.
CB: Yeah.
WS: I think.
CB: So at Silloth.
WS: Yeah.
CB: You’ve got it as Number 6 OTU. So what were you converting on to there? On the training unit.
WS: Wellingtons.
CB: Wellingtons. Right.
WS: Wellingtons. Now, the reason, being there I flew with the bravest and the daftest pilot in the RAF. He was well named. Lovely man. Even though I got in trouble with him. I flew with him and I must mention this because it’s very very interesting. His name, you can’t forget his name. Bond. I am Bond. James Bond. Well, he wasn’t James Bond he was probably Willie Harry Bond but his name was Bond. And of course my best friend in London, his name was Bond. You see, I could never forget. He was on the, and he, you had to fly in Ansons when you first, when you first go to Silloth. And you had to fly from Silloth. This was, scared the life out of most people. You had to fly from Silloth. I knew every inch of the way. Silloth. Blackpool. Back to Silloth. Dead straight. Nothing complicated. Not at all. Three W/op AGs in the Anson. So Stevenson goes on first. I go on first. Then I had trouble getting through to Silloth. To the signallers up there. It was getting worse as the hour. Anyway me hour was up and I had to get off and another W/op AGs got on. I thought trouble here. So when I get back to the signals officer and I presented him with a blank sheet he wasn’t a very happy puppy. He said, ‘Not very clever sergeant.’ I said, ‘No sir.’ And the reason it wasn’t very clever? I had a blank sheet. And he said, ‘What’s the cause?’ ‘I don’t know what the cause is. I’m just learning how to —’ And when we land and come back I thought I know what the trouble is. He decided in his infinite wisdom I think. He did it regular. He’s very clever at it. Have you been to Blackpool? No.
CB: Ahum.
WS: You have? So you know the three piers. You fly over the top of them. Bondy didn’t. Bondy hedge hopped them. Three of them. And back again. Oh he’s got to do it both ways. I thought I know why I didn’t get through. So, so this signals officer said, ‘You’ll have to do it again sergeant.’ I thought, ‘Yes, please.’ And so within two days I had to do it again. Who was the pilot the second time? If you put money on it you would have been wrong. It was Bondy again he smiled. I thought, nothing to laugh at I said. And he said, ‘Hello.’ So I said, ‘Hello,’ I said, ‘I didn’t do very well last time.’ I said, ‘I got a blank sheet and got a rollicking from the — ’ ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘You’d be better going on second.’ I thought how does he know when it’s better to go on? He’s flying the damned thing. He’s not operating the, the signals. So he, I went on second. And my heart bled for the chap who went on first but I thought well you have a dose of it and see. See what you get. And of course I got through. No problem. So it was pretty, were a bit and when I go to the plane the second time he had a smile on. He says, ‘hello,’ as if much to say I’ve seen you before. As much as to say, ‘I’ve seen you.’ Do you know what he offered and I’m sure this was a bribe and I’ve never had them before. I don’t know whether you’ve smoked them. Did you smoke?
CB: No.
WS: Well what, you wouldn’t know about these then. These are the crème de la crème in smoking. Now, I’m just telling you. I’ve forgot the name.
CB: Woodbines?
WS: Vulcan Sobranie.
CB: Oh right.
WS: So when I get up to the front I said, ‘I’ve finished.’ A flight Lieu’s a flight lieuy, ‘I’ve just finished sir.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘How did you get on?’ He knew how I got on. I said, ‘Alright.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘It‘s best not going on first.’ He knew. He knew where he was flying, you know. I didn’t get on and he, he offered. He smoked and I never. You’re not supposed to smoke on them. But he handed me. I said, ‘Oh, thank you sir. I’ve never had one of these.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘They’re very nice.’ You had to be a flight lieuy and above to afford them. They’re about, do you know how much they are now? Well, I only know through paying the paper. Eight pound. Eight pounds for cigarettes to kill you. And so he said, ‘Have a cigarette.’ I said, ‘Can I smoke sir?’ He said ‘yes, yes.’ And one more story just about Flight Lieutenant Bond. Coming back somebody’s wrote a book. Kiwi. And I wish, I forget the title of it or else I would tell you willingly. When he. We used to go to Carlisle of a night and get a train back to Silloth. Him, this Kiwi and Bondy, obviously they were mates as well and they’d obviously been grounded for some reason because you don’t fly as a flight lieuy flying u/t air gunners. That’s not, that’s not what you joined up for. And he talked the driver, I nearly said the pilot, he talked the driver from Carlisle, from Silloth rather. No. Carlisle to Silloth. If they could have a go at the — and they did.
CB: Driving the train.
WS: The engine driver should have had his head. If anything had gone wrong there would have been big trouble. Great guy. And the book’s to verify that. There’s a book about it, a New Zealand skipper about his time at Silloth. If you work the times out I’ll bet you the magic eye can find the book and you’ll be, it’s worth a read if it’s only to tell you about Bondy.
CB: Just going back to what you were doing. So, what was the equipment that you were using that you didn’t get a signal on so you got a blank? What was it?
WS: The, oh that was —
CB: Was it a direction finder or was it —
WS: No. That was —
CB: Was it a type, it had got a screen had it?
[pause]
WS: No.
CB: Did it show you a map? What did it do? [pause] I’m trying to work out what it was that this thing was doing. That you were doing.
WS: No. No The wireless was just [pause] the wireless was just [pause] the wireless. No. Well, I didn’t. It wasn’t what we had when I was at Thornaby. So it was just, the wireless was just Marconi.
CB: But you were picking up signals of some kind but not all the time were you? What was it?
WS: I don’t know what. That was the first.
CB: So this is like a television screen.
WS: Yeah.
CB: But it’s circular.
WS: Yeah. With a line.
CB: And it’s got a cross in it.
WS: Down the middle.
CB: Yeah
WS: It’s in the book.
CB: Right. Okay. So this is a way of getting on to a target is it?
WS: It, it picks up all sorts of things. Picks up coastline.
CB: Yeah.
WS: There a certain amount of —
CB: Right. So it is an H2S type.
WS: Well, yes.
CB: Yeah. Okay.
WS: I’m not very —
CB: Okay.
WS: It was [pause] you could cheat a bit and look away. You shouldn’t look too long because you’re only this far from the —
CB: Yeah. From the screen.
WS: I don’t think it was all that good but —
CB: So then after you were at Silloth that’s when you went to Thornaby. And you were there for a year.
WS: To where?
CB: Thornaby. And you were at Thornaby for a year.
WS: Yeah. I was at Thornaby.
CB: And then, then you went back to Silloth.
WS: Yeah. Well, now see that’s where my logbook went astray.
CB: And this is the — oh right.
WS: You found that.
CB: Yeah.
WS: It’s lost somewhere around there.
CB: Okay.
WS: When it came back to me. And that’s me original one.
CB: Yeah. Okay.
WS: It just mixes it up a bit.
CB: Yeah. And this is a lot of trips over the Irish Sea obviously.
WS: Yes.
CB: From here you went to 303 FTU at Talbenny.
WS: Aye.
CB: In Pembrokeshire.
WS: Aye.
CB: What did you do there?
WS: What did? We did a couple of trips there. They were classed as operations. To tell you what I did.
CB: It was a navigation —
WS: Yes.
CB: Trip.
WS: They were navigation trips really. Nothing to do. Well of course you had to go.
CB: And this is on Wellingtons is it?
WS: Wellingtons and plus the, plus the fact that we, that Mitch and one of the W/op AGs was sent off. Was sent off to pick up our aircraft which we were to fly out to the Middle East and beyond.
CB: Right. So from there you flew out to Rabat.
WS: Terrible. Yes. Yes.
CB: Okay. What did you do there?
WS: Well, then it was in Rabat. Rabat. Well, well it changed. We didn’t fly to Rabat.
CB: Right.
WS: The RAF in their infinite wisdom had decided [pause] what’s the other place? Have I put it?
CB: Well, then they went to Cairo.
WS: No. But —
CB: And Wadi [Sadiki?]
WS: Well you see the first landing place from when we left. When we left —
CB: Talbenny in Pembrokeshire.
WS: No. No. No. Let’s, no, let’s go back. When we left —
CB: Hurn? Hurn, near Bournemouth.
WS: We left. Wait a bit. We left Silloth and we went to —
CB: South Wales.
WS: We went to Talbenny. Yes. And then from Talbenny we went to Bournemouth.
CB: Yeah. To Hurn.
WS: Hurn.
CB: Yeah.
WS: That’s it. We were at Hurn.
CB: And that’s when you —
WS: We flew from Hurn.
CB: From there.
WS: To the place that changed.
CB: Gibraltar? Did you —
WS: Hmmn?
CB: Did you got to Gibraltar next? On the way.
WS: No. No. No. We went to [pause] Rabat’s there. They changed it. It wasn’t Rabat. Can you switch it off?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Right. We’re just pausing for a moment.
[recording paused]
CB: Restart. Hang on.
WS: We went out the first night at this small place.
CB: Yeah.
WS: So it wasn’t all that big.
CB: Castel Benito.
WS: It wasn’t. It was quite big and Oliver, about four of us went out. I don’t know why we did but we did. Somebody’s stupid idea. And Harvey said, ‘You’re both for it,’ and ‘What did you do?’ It was always my fault. He said, ‘Somebody just pulled a knife.’ So Harvey had to, Oliver had to report it to the station commander.
CB: Your navigator. Yes.
WS: Yes. And on the ground this was. And they put them and they put the area out of bounds.
CB: Oh.
WS: But it was very interesting in the morning. When you went out from Blighty, from Bournemouth or Merton. Where ever I lived. When we went in the sergeant’s mess the communal mess they were. When you were in the queue, and this was a novelty to me, you had, typical American of course. You had to put your fingers up how many eggs you wanted.
CB: Oh.
WS: How many you wanted. We hadn’t had any eggs in this country for, very, even in the mess we didn’t know we had them. Private digs. So when you got there the eggs was all fried. Typical American. The eggs fried and just put on your plate.
CB: Fantastic.
WS: Wonderful. That’s the only thing that stood out about that. I said to Harvey, ‘I didn’t do anything,’ but, I said [pause] ‘Well,’ he said, ‘That bloke pulled a knife. ‘Well,’ I said, ‘That doesn’t mean very much.’ Typical Harvey. Oliver. Blame anybody but himself.
CB: Was that a military person who’d pulled the knife or a local?
WS: Hmmn?
CB: Was it a military person who —
WS: No.
CB: Pulled the knife? Or a local?
WS: No. No. It was a local. So they put that out of bounds. So they must have been worried about it.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Stopped anybody going in.
CB: Right.
WS: Just an ordinary boredom. Flying out to [pause] my birthday spent in, my birthday was spent at Cairo West.
CB: Okay.
WS: It was normal for my, I did have slight truck, it was nothing. Typical RAF. Painted with that stuff you know. Don’t know what they called it. It was a disinfectant. Anyway, the rest of the crew went to Alexander. Not Cairo. You know, we landed in Cairo. Joe was, I went in hospital in Cairo. I didn’t know they had a hospital but they did. And they all said, ‘Cheerio. See you when you get back.’ I said, ‘Thank you very much. Tell us how lovely it is at Alexander.’
CB: So from Cairo you then went on eventually to Mogadishu.
WS: Yes.
CB: The whole crew. You flew down there.
WS: Yes. Yes. Oh yeah. We flew from Cairo to a nice place. Well, it wasn’t a nice place but it was —
CB: Well, it’s a place called Port Reitz.
WS: Where?
CB: R E I T Z. Port Reitz.
WS: [pause] Port Reitz. No. We went from Cairo [pause] Where are we here? Cairo. 11th ‘til the 10th. That’s it, my birthday is the 29th of the 9th. So that’s four days. So I’d been in hospital a couple of days to Wadi [Said?] and I don’t know where that is. Wadi Said. And it’s quite a decent sized place in North Africa.
CB: Okay. Anyway, so on there then you’re, you took the aeroplane, your aeroplane all the way from the UK.
WS: Yeah.
CB: So you’re still in that plane.
WS: We’re still in that. And that was our plane number.
CB: Yeah. So then you went down. Where did you go from Cairo?
WS: Cairo to Wadi [Said?] Now from there to Juba. Juba’s the funniest place.
CB: Where was that?
WS: It was. In between. In between.
CB: Okay. And from Juba then that was just a staging post was it?
WS: Nothing there. Nothing there. Nothing there. People must have gone mad. I think they filled it. I think they filled the aircraft up with, with —
CB: Water?
WS: Cans. Cans of fuel. Cans of fuel. There was only one officer and it must have been an awful place. And then that was the short trip from there to —
CB: Mogadishu?
WS: To Cairo.
CB: Oh to Cairo. Right.
WS: Yeah. We did go. Before we went to Mogadishu we went. We landed. We didn’t, we didn’t go up to Mogadishu then. We went straight down from, we went straight down from Cairo [pause] from Kenya. We were in Kenya. Right. And we had engine trouble there.
CB: Oh.
WS: In Kenya. So we went down to Mombasa.
CB: Right.
WS: On Mombasa but by the time we got to Mombasa they’d changed it again. Mombasa was going to be the home of our squadron. 621 Squadron. It was the home of 621 Squadron. Just there’d been a number of ships sunk by U-boats in the trip around Africa.
CB: Yeah.
WS: You know, up. Up —
CB: Up the east coast.
WS: Yes. Up the east coast there and then turned around into. They wanted Japan so they had to be the big type of U-boat. The U859 was one of them. U852 was one of them and they, they changed Mombasa then. Just as we got there they said oh you’re not here now. Well we are here now but you’re not here now. We’ve moved up the coast to Mogadishu which reportedly moved and I read it a while back the last place on earth.
CB: In Somalia.
WS: It’s about right. Oh terrible. Terrible.
CB: Okay. So was, did that become your operating base?
WS: Mogadishu was.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Thank you love.
CB: And what was the role of the squadron? What was the role of the squadron?
WS: To stop the U-boats going up there. So we knew or you know, through, through Enigma out here. Very cleverly. I know it’s very clever. But again you see it’s very clever but only for navigators and pilots. They didn’t come to me and say, Oh I stayed with these people I’ve mentioned. I’ve read air gunners. I’ve got books that said, ‘I told the skipper this. And I told — ‘ You don’t tell the skipper nothing. The age old, my father would say, ‘If you’ve nothing better to say shut up.’ The skipper wouldn’t listen to you anyway. You. You were an advisor. Don’t get carried away with your job. You were an advisor.
CB: Right
WS: That’s why you had that scrape.
CB: Right.
WS: To say, ‘Alright navigator. You can come and have a look at the screen if you want.’ Which he probably did. I can’t remember. But people make out that they, they turned up. You don’t do that. Not even Bomber Command. No Commands. If there’s somebody on your tail you tell the skipper. But first you fire at the damned aircraft before. It doesn’t matter. The skipper doesn’t give a toss as long as you hit the aircraft if there’s somebody at your back. But that’s another story of fairy tales and no fairy tales here.
CB: So, on the aircraft you are actually trained as a wireless operator signaller and also as an air gunner.
WS: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
CB: On this squadron 621.
WS: Yeah. Well —
CB: What was your role? Where were you? You weren’t sitting in a turret at the back.
WS: No.
CB: You were doing a wireless operator job.
WS: I was a wireless op. Two hours. Two hours each.
CB: Right.
WS: The three W/op AGs.
CB: Right.
WS: Two hours on the set. Two hours on the set. Two hours [pause] There’s nobody in the front turret when you start. The set, the set, the IT, the ITV you know. We called it the ITV screen and then the rear and you go around from there. So on May the 2nd I, I was, I had been on the set and I’d just come off.
CB: Okay. Can I just clarify this? So, you’re flying along and you alternate. There were three wireless operator air gunners.
WS: That’s it. We were all —
CB: And you’d do two hours each.
WS: We were all the same.
CB: So you then go and sit in a turret when you’re not on the set. Are you?
WS: No.
CB: Oh. Where are you? If you’re not on the set where are you standing?
WS: I wasn’t. No.
CB: So, as a, as a signaller —
WS: Yeah.
CB: And air gunner — you do two hours on the set.
WS: Two hours each.
CB: Each. So where are you? Once you’ve done two hours what are you doing?
WS: Just operated from rear turret.
CB: Right.
WS: Spare. You didn’t go in the front turret.
CB: No.
WS: I went in the front turret because I’d sighted it and as I was sitting on the —
CB: So specifically, in this particular case. This is fast forward that on one of the sorties.
WS: Yeah.
CB: You saw on your screen a submarine. Is that right?
WS: No. No. I didn’t. I didn’t see it on the, on the, I saw it with —
CB: Oh right. Mark one eyeball.
WS: Yeah. I see it, I saw it there because, because the navigator in their infinite wisdom whose got all the information when you take off. It doesn’t matter who’s sitting where I was he knows that this is the line that the U-852’s coming up, you see.
CB: Ah.
WS: It’s been reported. But we don’t know that. But the pilot and navigator’s got a good idea where it is. Although Mitch in his infinite wisdom and he was no fool, he was on the toilet.
CB: Oh.
WS: He decides to go to the Elsan. Mitch is on the Elsan so the second pilot is flying. A bloke called Harvey Riddell. A Canadian. Nice lad. Never heard no more from him. I reckon he was killed in the Middle East somewhere. I’ve tried to get his name. Oliver tried but he didn’t succeed either. I went in the, Harvey took over the plane. The weather was diabolical. No question about it. Cloud. Rain. Everything. You’re not going to see nothing there anyway and the time then was probably just prior to 4 o’clock. I then move off the wireless set because that was somebody else moved on because we, you’ve got, you’ve got to have somebody on the wireless set. The ASV is not all that important. And then I [pause] only he must have spoke while [laughs] while he was on the toilet. He must have spoke. Harvey must have spoke and said, ‘The weather’s diabolical skip. What do I do?’ So he said, ‘Go down.’ Whatever. Not interested. Whatever. And as soon as he went under the weather — like this. Unbelievable. From that to this. Thank you love.
CB: So not, so what height are you flying at this stage? A thousand feet. Two thousand.
WS: Yeah. Not, not very, not very high. Not very high. But it happened immediately. It happened, it happens in seconds. The distance I didn’t know until Oliver tells me because he was, he’s got it worked out from when I sighted the submarine. It was about six or seven miles. I didn’t know the naked eye got so — my eyesight’s very good. Even today. I can read. I had me eyes tested Wednesday. I haven’t changed. My glasses haven’t changed. I haven’t got —
CB: Right.
WS: They’re the same glasses which I’ve —
CB: You’ve had for ages.
WS: Yeah. Which is luck.
CB: So you looked out because you’re in the front turret.
WS: No. I was in the second pilot’s seat.
CB: Oh you were in the second pilot’s seat. Right.
WS: Yeah. You see, because Harvey had gone.
CB: Yes.
WS: Mitch was coffeeing. Well, he should have been.
CB: Yes.
WS: But he said he was. And when, as soon as we went down I said ‘Harvey.’ As simple as that. I saw it as easy as that. And look. Did I see a submarine? I have never seen a submarine in my life. I saw a long black object.
CB: Right.
WS: Which wasn’t a ship.
CB: Right.
WS: It just looked, you know, like your tie laid down in the water.
CB: Right.
WS: That’s what it looked like to me. And of course I’ve done all the Q and all the U. Well watch officer. Is there a watch officer in the navy? Well you were to blame. But then like the First World War the man who puts his head above the — you win. You put your head up and I win. And that’s just the way it, he got the rollicking. He was to blame because he he should have been looking out for anything.
CB: For aircraft.
WS: For anything.
CB: So he was looking the wrong way.
WS: Yes. Yes.
CB: So, so you see the submarine, you tell the pilot. The second pilot.
WS: No. I tell Harvey.
CB: Oh. You tell Harvey.
WS: That’s when, that’s when Harvey —
CB: Yeah.
WS: That’s when Harvey told Mitch.
CB: Gets — yeah right.
WS: He soon left the —
CB: Yeah.
WS: He soon left the Elsan. And Mitch was up there like a flash. I was out of the seat like a flash. And I went straight in the front because that’s the position you should be if you were there.
CB: Yeah.
WS: You’re not normally there anyway.
CB: No.
WS: It’s usually Mitch in the second.
CB: So you got out of the second pilot’s seat.
WS: Oh yeah.
CB: Down into the turret at the front.
WS: Oh yeah. Which is only from here —
CB: The guns, the guns are ready primed are they?
WS: Yeah. It’s, it’s only from here to the television.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: As close as that.
CB: Ratio, yeah.
WS: Yeah. And then it —
CB: And then what?
WS: And it just got bigger and bigger. I did nothing. People. Well, I did. I had my finger on the trigger.
CB: You gave it a burst did you?
WS: Because I could see what air gunners, anybody could be in there. Just an air gunner. But when you get the sight with that —
CB: Yeah. So you got it on.
WS: If you, if you press before you’re wasting ammunition.
CB: Yeah.
WS: And you might get jams. You’re told not to. That not’s technical. You’re told to do short bursts.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: To save that you know. And just short bursts. You don’t get no jams. I got no jams.
CB: No.
WS: How many did I kill? You don’t think I was counting them do you?
CB: How many bursts did you give?
WS: Well, how do I know?
CB: Right. But you just do so you immediately started firing is what I’m getting at.
WS: Oh no. Not immediately. As soon as I got within the range.
CB: Yeah. Which is what? What’s your range?
WS: Because they still hadn’t gone down.
CB: No. What’s your range? Four hundred yards or [pause] normally.
WS: It’s not an interesting job.
CB: No.
WS: An air gunner. It’s a doddle job. You just — the distance from there. The distance —
CB: But they were all on the conning tower so you got them.
WS: Yeah. Well they weren’t all in but they were trying to get in damned quick.
CB: Yeah. Into there.
WS: I actually saw them running along the —
CB: Oh, on the deck.
WS: Yeah. You couldn’t help but, you couldn’t help but see them. I would have thought they should have manned the guns.
CB: So in practical terms. When you’re running the guns like this —
WS: Yeah.
CB: What did you shoot at first?
WS: Oh just the top of the conning tower.
CB: The conning tower. Right. And so —
WS: I didn’t pick people out and say, ‘I don’t like you.’’
CB: I didn’t mean that. No. What I meant was do you go for the conning tower first?
WS: Yeah.
CB: And they’re all running for the tower so they walk straight into it.
WS: Well, I expect this. I expect the captain had told everybody get in and get down but it was too, too late.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Too, too late.
CB: So, what happened then? So, you’ve clobbered all these characters on — the submarine doesn’t submerge does it?
WS: Oh yes.
CB: Oh it does.
WS: It went down. Oh it went down. So I thought, and Mitch thought too, when you spend hours just flying over water you probably don’t, you don’t expect, you should be expecting to see them they’re not. As well you know the size of the ocean. And within seconds of going over we thought whacko, he’s gone down which means we’ve sunk him. Well, what else can you think? It’s the first time. We then circled in a circle. Circled the swirl or whatever. Whatever. He went.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Whatever you see. And surprise surprise he came up. But [pause] but even I, in my infinite wisdom which is zero to think, to think, if, if we haven’t sunk them and he’s coming up that means we haven’t hit him. Well, that isn’t true either. We’d more than hit. There’s the submarine going along. The skipper by now knows what he’ll do. He’ll zigzag or whatever. So, Harvey, I suppose that the, because we haven’t got a bomb aimer.
CB: Yeah. He’s the bomb aimer.
WS: He presses the tit or does, does the skipper press it?
CB: Well, they both can can’t they?
WS: Eh?
CB: They both can.
WS: They both can.
CB: But, but normally doesn’t the navigator go down to do it?
WS: He’s got to get the figures out hasn’t he?
CB: Yeah.
WS: For the position and everything. Anyway.
CB: Yeah. Anyway, so were bombs dropped? Well they were depth charges. So you dropped, did you? Depth charges.
WS: Six.
CB: Yeah.
WS: You dropped them all, you see. If they had two lots —
CB: Oh. All in one go. Right.
WS: If you had two lots you could have go at this. Have another go like this. Make sure. It’s got to be, there’s a height down which I don’t know.
CB: Yeah.
WS: There’s a certain depth where it, where if you but the six has got to be dropped in a stick you see.
CB: Yeah. In a bracket.
WS: You can’t drop one at a time. You dropped the stick.
CB: Yeah.
WS: See, there’s, going that way you should drop one, two, three. Hoping two, three or four might, he might switch and get them. And when he come up and I used the words in my simple vocabulary. It come up like Blackpool Tower. Well, I knew that wasn’t right. So, while I knew we hadn’t sunk it I also knew we’ve done summat. Well, if he was alright even the simplest of person would tell you he’d be away running wouldn’t he? And he wasn’t was he? So, and I used the words Blackpool Tower which I —
CB: When he comes up. Yeah.
WS: We haven’t got that. But it came up. You know. I don’t know how submarines come up. I’d never seen any. But you would think that it would come up like a ship wouldn’t you? But it didn’t. It come up like that. And then flapped on the [pause] I’ve got the number one. I’ve got a better view than the skipper. I’m two yards further ahead of him. And I just, I saw the flap on the surface. I can see it. I don’t know if that’s good. And then within seconds. And then he opened fire on us.
CB: Oh did he?
WS: And he’d got an awful lot of armament.
CB: 37 millimetre.
WS: He must have some poor gunners because he never hit us and we were the only aircraft. By that, by this time of course we, we’d got the whole of the East Africa. Not that there was a lot of aircraft in East Africa. We’d flown from a horrible place. Scuscuiban, pronounced Shoo shoo ban. Diabolical area. Good that we sailed, we left from there in the morning but there was other, there was other stations but some of them just one aircraft. And 8 Squadron had been at, in Khormaksar for years and years you know. They’re very old.
CB: That’s Aden. Yeah.
WS: The squadron was. 8 Squadron. 8 Squadron, they were. And we were sent out there to help them I suppose. If they needed help, but [pause] And the more they fired though of course Mitch in his infinite wisdom you’ve got to judge his fire power and keep just outside of it. It would be silly going inside it else you wouldn’t be here to tell the story. And he’d be take great delight in sinking the aircraft that had damaged his. So, you just keep going in and out and by this time it’s red hot with information to ships in the, in the area. I don’t know if there was any ships in the area. Never there when you want them probably but, and we just kept on and on until our petrol level got as low as humanly possible. We had x amount of time to get back. And we did just have enough petrol. When we landed everybody was waiting to congratulate us and say congrats and everything like that. By this time we’d got, 621 had quite a few planes coming in but we’d done what we had to do. And there were about eight or nine aircraft and none of them sunk them. And he was a sitting duck. They weren’t a sitting duck when I, we went. Although they were. But he’d been down and chased. What we’d done we’d damaged the chlorine pipes.
CB: Oh.
WS: Whatever. Whatever it is and the skip, and one of the engineers shook his head to the skipper and said ‘we’ve got to go up and we’ve got to beach, beach it as soon as,’ which we did at [unclear ] There’s a coast place there where it had beached. And it was a success. And to think that we, we’d only ever seen one and we’d got ninety nine, we probably got a hundred percent success in as much as all the information we got, the RAF, after the navy had finished collecting all what they wanted you can have what’s left. They did the business. But it’s—
CB: But just to clarify this. So —
WS: Just.
CB: You’re sitting in the, in the co-pilot’s seat.
WS: Second pilot, yeah. Dickie. Second dickie as it was called.
CB: And you get, yeah. You then get down in to the nose where you’ve got the forward guns and there are two 303 machine guns.
WS: Two. They were like toffee apples.
CB: Yeah. But you’re spraying them.
WS: Yeah.
CB: Now, on the way over do you, does the plane drop the stick of depth charges as it goes over on the first pass or did you have to go round again?
WS: As you were going over.
CB: Yeah.
WS: I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t know as a W/op AG and I’m not interested in looking down, I’m interested in looking —
CB: Sure.
WS: There. But even if I did I wouldn’t know what I was looking for. I only said ‘There’s the submarine. Go now. Go now.’ But of course he can switch when he’s gone under water.
CB: Yeah.
WS: So you don’t know. But then he, you have got to drop. The pilot. He’s trained to do. Suppose you were coming that way, we’re coming this way. You’ve got to drop them there. The first one there you might just walk in to the second one or the third one. So it could be the second, third. Could be any of them.
CB: Yeah. But what I meant was is they weren’t dropped on the first pass. When you were shooting they didn’t drop immediately after that did they? You had to come around again.
WS: Oh no.
CB: To drop.
WS: No. No, they had, no, they dropped them first time.
CB: They did.
WS: Mitch.
CB: Right. So that was good moving. Yeah.
WS: Dropped them first time.
CB: Right.
WS: And that is the nearest I can tell you.
CB: So, they were dropped. Not all in one go.
WS: Yeah.
CB: But in a stick.
WS: What they dropped —
CB: One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six.
WS: Yeah. You drop them all. That’s the sad bit. I don’t think they perfected.
CB: But it obviously damaged the submarine.
WS: No. It’s probably right in as much as if you. If you hadn’t, if you hadn’t dropped them in a stick and he comes up with — you’ve read his armament have you?
CB: Thirty seven millimetre. Yeah.
WS: Yeah. Terrific armament on a submarine. Could blast you out of the skies and blow you to kingdom come. We couldn’t kill dead flies with two 303s and a four at the rear. With four at the rears. Good if you hit somebody but it’s —
CB: So, after the first pass. After the first pass.
WS: Yeah.
CB: When you did the shooting —
WS: Yeah.
CB: And then the bombs, the depth charges were dropped.
WS: Depth charges.
CB: Was any more fire. Did you, from the front or the rear turret, did they shoot again?
WS: No.
CB: Right.
WS: No. Because, only because he was up in, when I told you he’d come up and I think, I remember Mitch saying, ‘Take some pictures Harvey.’ And he was in his position then. So with the camera. Because if you, if you hadn’t dropped them then he could have blown you out of the skies with —
CB: Yeah.
WS: The next time.
CB: How far out to sea was this? Five miles?
WS: I can’t. I can’t —
CB: Twenty miles? Could you see the coastline from where you were flying?
WS: I couldn’t —
CB: No.
WS: And I wasn’t [laughs]
CB: No.
WS: And I wasn’t looking.
CB: Okay.
WS: I was looking at getting back to base like everybody was. Because at the time we’d been out or when we took off from when we timed from when I saw that I don’t know. I didn’t time. Oliver might know. He might not. I don’t know.
CB: We’ll ask him later.
WS: Yeah.
CB: Okay. So, anyway the submarine was then guided to the shore. Pointed at the shore and beached.
WS: Yeah. Well, you knew then —
CB: Yeah.
WS: That’s where he was going. Yes.
CB: Right. And the other aircraft from didn’t, they didn’t manage to hit it but they did bomb it did they?
WS: Well, again I don’t know but he got to the shore alright. Well —
CB: What happened then?
WS: Well, we were gone then.
CB: No. But when they got to the shore what happened?
WS: Well, he tried to scuttle it.
CB: Right.
WS: And made, I would say what’s the word? Hack?
CB: Hash.
WS: He made a hash of it. Yes. Made a hash of it. Whether he was thinking about his self I don’t know. It was his first journey as a captain. He’d been on other things you know. But it was his first journey out from Kiel as a submarine commander.
CB: A commander. Yeah. But he’d already sunk ships. He’d already sunk ships hadn’t he?
WS: Yes. Yes.
CB: Right.
WS: He’d sunk a ship that was built in, in Hartlepool.
CB: Oh right.
WS: The Peleus. And that’s why he was shot at dawn. Like I told you there was only five days difference between Mitch being killed and him shot at dawn. Irony isn’t it? The twist of fate.
CB: But he, the captain, Eck had been shot because of what he did. So what had he done?
WS: Oh he’d machine gunned, this is naughty as an officer —
CB: Survivors.
WS: This is naughty. He’d machine gunned people from the Peleus in the water.
CB: After he’d sunk the ship.
WS: It was your duty as an officer. As a captain and an officer to bring people on the ship. Find out what you can from them. Put them back out to sea if you should. In a boat if you don’t want them on your boat. Put them back there and then go. He didn’t do that. He, I think it was probably a slip of memory or —, no. It wasn’t. It was words from and I know with the research I’ve done, with the German High Command. I’ve read it from Kiel. That’s where. I’ve just read it. The officer, the officer in charge has got to be completely in charge but donates who’s in charge of the submarines. They were a bit like Hitler. They’re not going to do anything but they do do summat. And he said everything’s got to be obliterated because it’s your life. Now, that’s one thing telling that and when the skipper does that it’s wrong isn’t it? The trials you see it was found that that was naughty and that was wrong. And even though they don’t do that at [pause] although we were far from not guilty.
CB: But what had happened was there was a lot of debris on the sea. Surface of the sea wasn’t it?
WS: There was quite a few of them saving but again, as the famous saying, these are my saying, well my father saying — you live by the sword you die by the sword. Well, he cleared everybody which he thought was right so as everything’s, he can get away and people won’t see him. I understand what he has to do as a captain. But again it kicks you up the bottom when you, when you think you’ve cleared everything up and you haven’t. So four people survived.
CB: Oh did they? Right.
WS: Yeah. Four people survived and they found a way back to West Africa where the, where the Peleus was hit first.
CB: Oh.
WS: I don’t know how important the Peleus was now but it was just a tramp steamer I think. All different nationalities you know but and they got back to, they got back to port and that’s what, that’s why it came under the trials. And him and three officers were shot at dawn. And when we got back you’re talking about what he should do to clear up. When we landed back at Khormaksar, at Scuscuiban at about [pause] it‘s, it’s in the book what time we landed back.
CB: Yeah.
WS: I don’t know.
CB: In your logbook this is. Yeah.
WS: We got back at [pause] 7 o’clock at night. Well, the, the [pause] the fitters. I thought oh no. I’m not going back there again. But that’s what you’ve got to and you’ve got to do. So they decided that they had to fill up again just in case. He could have escaped but there was far too many aircraft in the vicinity so he didn’t escape. But anyway we did go out at 7 o’clock didn’t we? That night.
CB: Right. Right.
WS: Nothing happened. It was just beached by the time we got there. But, oh and when we got back from the first trip. When they were filling up, one of the fitters, fitter lad said, ‘This is your lucky day.’ And we said, ‘Well, yeah. It’s anybody’s lucky day if you sight a submarine.’ You don’t sight them once a year. So, 8 Squadron had never seen one I don’t think. He said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘I don’t mean that,’ he said, ‘You had one tank completely empty and the other one not very good.’ I remember when we just jokingly said to Oliver then, ‘You left that bit close.’ Yeah’ Oliver said, ‘I’ll get it a bit nearer next time.’ Well, you don’t think about that. You just think about getting back I suppose.
CB: You hadn’t been hit by any of the submarine fire had you?
WS: No. No. That’s what I say. While they were escaping by the time we’d got there.
CB: Right.
WS: So they were escaping. They were trying to get down in the conning tower. I’d never seen a conning tower but that’s where he was. I could have moved the turret sideways but I don’t see as there was any sense because there were two or three around it. Two or three bodies. I could actually see them, you know. I was nearly as close as you are so no problem seeing them on there. So I didn’t have any reason to move my turret at all.
CB: No. No.
WS: It was just, it was what they called plain firing but people could make a lot of it and say they did this and did that.
CB: So you’d, at that stage how long had you been out in that area?
WS: 4. 4 o’clock in the morning.
CB: Yeah. So you could be airborne for quite a long time could you?
WS: Yeah. Yeah. It, it was. It must have been. It must have been, the fuel must have been pretty low. And you’ve got to think then, and plus the fact that by, by the time we left the circle and going in and out just so to use up a bit of his, his ammunition. You’ve got to vary because some have, some has got different ranges to others.
CB: Of course.
WS: I don’t know the reason.
CB: Got to confuse the gunners.
WS: Mitch did. He said, ‘You had enough fuel to get to the end of the runway.’ I thought, charming.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Charming.
CB: Amazing. Was the, your picture on the wall shows a Wellington in white. What colour was the aircraft? Was it camouflaged in any way? The one you were flying.
WS: That was painted. I didn’t ask him to do this. He was on the squadron. He’d been at 8 Squadron. Then he come on our squadron. He just died Christmas. He just died last Christmas. Because he didn’t, they said he should have gone to the doctors and he said, ‘No. I don’t go. I’m not going to the doctors. I’ll just have antibiotics.’ He should have gone to the doctors. But his son is a very good painter. In fact that’s all he is good at. He’s, well because that’s all he does. His son. But the lad who did that his father must have picked the, I don’t know, it’s not a bad painting. A hand painting.
CB: But what I meant was that picture on the wall shows the fuselage white. But what colour was your aircraft?
WS: I think it was white.
CB: Right.
WS: I think it was white.
CB: And the wings are blue.
WS: Hmmn?
CB: And the wings are blue.
WS: Oh, well if that’s, I don’t —
CB: I just, for background. So, after the submarine incident then what? Yeah. So you’ve had the excitement of sinking the submarine effectively. Disabling it. Then your flying time didn’t stop. What did you do after that? In the days and months ahead.
WS: I don’t know. I don’t know. In the book Mitch and I went up. I went up. Mitch and I went up but I think that was before we sighted the submarine. Went up to Transjordan. That’s what it was called in them days. Transjordan. Don’t know why. Do you? Transjordan. I don’t know. We then went to a little island not far from where the, not far from Ben Abela right. Called Socotra. Have you? No? Don’t go there. You know what the king did there if you stole. Chopped your hands off. No messing. Got the tree and hand and he did. It belonged to, the Russians took over. I think the Russians still own it now. It didn’t belong to us but we went there and we were within a whisker. We were within a whisker of the U859. So, he’d got up in the meantime and this was about August time when it was the end of — it did get through but then I think he was sunk just before he got to Japan. So, we’d done a good job. And it was the, it was the end of submarines trying to get through to Japan. So in their infinite wisdom the British have, they [pause] yes.
CB: So that, your tour, how many, how many ops did you do to do your tour?
WS: Not as many as Oliver because [laughs] because he was a good navigator. Don’t ask me this because I can’t tell you and Mitch is not here to tell you. But a big chunk. He said, ‘Go and pack your bags. We’re going to Trans, we’re going to Transjordan.’ I don’t want to, I don’t want to go to Transjordan but when you’ve been at Khormaksar Transjordan was haven. Have you been to Kenya?
CB: I haven’t. No.
WS: No. Well —
CB: But Khormaksar is Aden.
WS: Khormaksar is. Yeah. Yeah, but what I’m saying is Khormaksar is diabolical. Ninety nine shirts this colour. Shirts, as soon as you put them. Kenya is not. Kenya is like this. And Socotra wasn’t bad. The climate how it was good I don’t know. But it was better. So the, we went there when the U859 was coming around which we learned later from my later second pilot who lived in Keighley. And the gentleman who, a gentleman lived near him whose livelihood was, if you never did — bringing up, bringing up gold from the, from the sea. Yeah. He had a diving, diving down and bringing up and he lived at Keighley where our second, second pilot came from. And he, he knew somebody and he knew that he’d got. Where he’d got it from I don’t know. He knew something about the U859 and we were within, we were within a very close distance of that but had got through to somewhere off India when I think somebody sunk it anyway.
CB: So, after that where did you go? Where did you go after that?
WS: When I come back to Blighty.
CB: Well, you went to Transjordan did you? You went to Transjordan.
WS: Yeah.
CB: And how long were you there?
WS: About six weeks.
CB: Oh right.
WS: Do you know what we were there for? Typical RAF of course. Aircraft instructor’s course.
CB: Oh.
WS: What aircraft? You don’t see any aircraft in there. I said, ‘What?’ All I spoke to Mitch was afterwards I said, and he was a big man, six foot odd, you know. I said, ‘How did you do?’ ‘Oh. Well,’ he said, ‘It doesn’t matter.’ I thought, ‘Ah, I’m doing better than you.’ I’ve got about seventy eight percent. So, that wasn’t bad. I don’t know what, I don’t know what it meant. When I told blokes back in the squadron they told me where to go. So I went there [laughs] But, but then we were, when we were away Harvey just flew a different aircraft. He thought it was great. I didn’t. And he was one of the unlucky ones you know because when he finished training in South Africa, he did his training in South Africa. I moaned about my flight sergeant. I know it was only pennies but it’s a lot of money to me. He come back from there I told you. And we went to, to he went to Blackpool. Squires Gate. Squires Gate. That’s it. That’s the name of it. And when he come back [pause] from there, and then Eastbourne. Have you been to Eastbourne? Do you know Eastbourne? Well, he was in a hotel, a big hotel on the front there. Did you see it? Where it had been half been rebuilt. Where Hitler hit it. Well he, the navigators were all in there.
CB: Oh were they?
WS: But they were out in the morning so they didn’t, they didn’t. Well he’d come back there. He’d come back there. He went through OTU like us. Silloth. Then went abroad. Did his tour as a sergeant. And then within weeks he was a flight lieutenant.
CB: Quick as that.
WS: Yeah. Well why? Ask me why. Well, because he was commissioned in South Africa. Could have done better I think. The, the, whoever was in the [pause] yeah. So he was a commissioned. I never got my flight sergeant but that was just pennies. But he was, he should have been. He looked, he looked like officer material. I said, ‘Bad luck Oliver.’ But he didn’t seem to mind. I didn’t get that. That would have drove me up the wall.
CB: So you, you ended up as a flight sergeant. You ended up as a flight sergeant.
WS: I —
CB: You became a flight sergeant.
WS: And then I become a warrant officer.
CB: And then a warrant officer.
WS: Yeah.
CB: But when did you get those two is what I meant? So flight ––
WS: I don’t think I got me flight sergeant.
CB: Oh just straight to warrant officer did you?
WS: I wrote, I wrote to the check people and they said it was, it could have been when I was up in Transjordan. You don’t think they are going to transfer statements and pennies up to Transjordan. No. It probably came through records at Khormaksar without telling. I don’t think I was very much interested anyway.
CB: No.
WS: And then I was, and the reason I was, and that’s when I went to Scampton as sports officer. Because I expect the sports officer had been demobbed.
CB: This is when you got back.
WS: Ahum.
CB: Well, so after, so from Transjordan you came back to where in England?
WS: Oh no. No. No.
CB: Where did you go?
WS: Back to Khormaksar again.
CB: Oh you did.
WS: Oh yeah.
CB: Okay. Yeah.
WS: But I enjoyed it there. Why? Well, because it was like Kenya. The weather was, the weather was very English. You know. I played football. I enjoyed that.
CB: So then? When, when were you demobbed?
WS: Demobbed in, demobbed, well, at Coningsby. I was probably demobbed [pause] I was probably demobbed at Scampton because I’d gone there. RAF Scampton. To be —
CB: Sports officer.
WS: Yeah. To be sports officer. Well, I would be I think. There was only two of us there.
CB: Then what? So when you came out of the RAF, what did you then do?
WS: Out the RAF. Blacksmithing down here.
CB: So this was 1945, ‘46 was it?
WS: I came down here.
CB: When did you come out of the RAF?
WS: August ’46.
CB: Okay.
WS: Roughly.
CB: And then what? So what did you do immediately after you were demobbed?
WS: Here.
CB: Why did you come down here?
WS: Well, quite easily. The reason I came down here I lost me, again Stevenson, and I didn’t lose this. I didn’t lose it. It was stolen from me. You know we used to sleep with the paybook under the pillow. Well, it puts a crease in your trousers. That’s the only thing I know. And I’d had a few drinks in Newcastle. I was looking for two minutes actually or [unclear] been with me. And when I woke up in the morning nothing under the pillow. So I went down to the bloke in YMCA Newcastle. And that’s when the story of [pause] That’s when the story of [pause] the paybook. Sixty odd years.
CB: In your, in your book.
WS: An event.
CB: Right.
WS: An event. And the bloke said, ‘Oh, it happens all the time mate.’ I go, ‘Oh it’s alright for you but I’ve got to go back to Coningsby and tell the bloke.’ But they were alright as it happened. But not nice when you’ve lost. And when the, the Express reporter, very words, remember them vividly. This was after I was married. We’d been out for a walk Lil and I and when we came back and then she said, ‘Someone is on the phone.’ And it was our, the Air Gunner’s Secretary from London. Lived in London. I think he was a policeman and he said, he started interrogating me and asked me if I — and I said, ‘Well what do you want to know about?’ He said, ‘Were you in Newcastle,’ blah. I said, ‘I don’t know but I probably was,’ because I used to go there sometimes. I had an aunt live in Newcastle. Quite a good way from the town centre. And then he said, ‘Well, they found your paybook.’ So when the Express get word because there’s a cut off in the papers isn’t there?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: Between, yeah. So Manchester downwards. And the air gunner from [pause] it was in the AGA, Air Gunners Association. He was, he rung up the secretary and the secretary rings me. And that’s was how that was found. And they tret me well up there. Had a wonderful day.
CB: So what did you do when you came out? Immediately you came out. For a job.
WS: I then worked at, I then worked, just worked at Beaconsfield as a blacksmith. I went back to blacksmithing.
CB: But why did you choose down here?
WS: Because I’ve already said —
CB: Because of Halton.
WS: I’d already said to the reporter of the, of the Express —
CB: Yeah.
WS: Like, up there. He asked me that question, ‘Why have you come down here?’ And the words are just as vivid today as they were then, ‘I thought the cherries were sweeter.’ Meaning the choices. We’d got more choice.
CB: So as a blacksmith where did you work?
WS: Joe Lake’s, Beaconsfield. Wonderful. Wonderful man. He’d been a First World War soldier.
CB: Oh.
WS: It’s not there now. They’ve pulled it down. It’s a shame.
CB: What was it? What was it called?
WS: Lake. Lake and Mockley.
CB: Oh. Lake and Mockley.
WS: Do you know them?
CB: I don’t. No.
WS: Lake and Mockley was the name. And then I had a few changes after then.
CB: So where did you meet Lillian?
WS: Here. Wycombe.
CB: Right.
WS: Wycombe. At the town hall. It’s been pulled down has it?
Other: No.
WS: They ought to have done.
Other: Valentine’s Day.
WS: Was it?
Other: 1947.
WS: Don’t know who thought of that.
Other: Mum thought he was Polish because she couldn’t understand him [laughs]
CB: So, you spent all your life at Lake and Mockley when you came down here.
WS: No. No.
CB: What did you do after that?
WS: I went to. Well I was very good at welding to have been a blacksmith. I’ve done fire welding. Half the people that repairing wood I just went repairing motor cars. Panel beating. I switched to panel beater.
CB: Oh right.
WS: And that gave me a fair living. Fair. Not great.
CB: Well, we’ve done really well. Thank you very much indeed. And Lillian had been in the RAF as well.
WS: Yes. It’s in the book there.
CB: Okay. Good. One other thing that came out early on was you talked about how people were in reserved occupations and that’s what yours was. But you volunteered.
WS: Oh yes.
CB: What about this business of LMF. Did you come across that?
WS: No. I didn’t you know. But it annoys me. First, it’s not a thing to talk about.
CB: No.
WS: All I know is this. Again, this is typical RAF. Well, it’s just the RAF I’m afraid. I told a wing commander at Halton that and all last Monday when we were up there. He said, ‘I understand.’ He come from Edinburgh. He wasn’t born in Edinburgh but he was an Edinburgh lad. Charming man. Have you met him?
CB: No.
WS: Oh you want to meet him. They’ve got a lovely little museum there now.
CB: Yeah. I’ve been in it. Yes.
WS: Have you been in it?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WS: Well, the bloke kept showing me the Wellingtons. I just, I said, ‘I’ve seen a few of them.’ Yes. He said, ‘Yes. I know what you mean.’ NCOs were disgraced. Now, wait a bit. LMF. I haven’t delved into the business but I think in my little mind there’s no difference between a sergeant and an officer. If you’ve the sickness or the fear of or decided flying is not for me half way through and it gets the better of me that’s a sickness. The Americans recognised that. We don’t. All I’m saying that is if you’re a sergeant you were disgraced. Did you know anything about it?
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
WS: On the square. Ripped off. And sent to the Orkneys. I say the Orkneys. Cleaning toilets out somewhere. Now, officers weren’t tret like that. They didn’t have any parades for any officers who had LMF. I think that was wrong. But then that’s Britain and that’s how the service works. I don’t know if they had LMF in the army. They must have had surely. In the trenches. Must have had. Or the navy. All I know is about is me. You know, you don’t, you don’t know the, you don’t know the difference.
CB: No. That was really good. Thank you very much.
WS: It was.
CB: Fascinating.
[recording paused]
WS: I’m just saying I don’t understand it. That’s why I said —
CB: We’re just talking about the time out in the Middle East. And so it wasn’t based on the number of operations that you did.
WS: No. It wasn’t. It wasn’t else I would have been —
CB: How long were you there?
WS: Else I would have been six months later just because I’d been up to Transjordan. I didn’t want to go to Transjordan. Mitch said, ‘Get your bag out. We’re going to Transjordan.’ And when he said aircraft recognition I didn’t stop laughing when I left him. I didn’t dare laugh when he was there. I expect he was happy to have a rest. I didn’t want to have a rest. But see what I mean it’s —
CB: So what we’re getting at is that you were out there for a year.
WS: A year. And all the, all the crews that started the squadron in when they —
CB: At OTU.
WS: When it was formed, when it was formed 621 Squadron, when we went up to London, what do you call him, my mate Bond asked one of the high ranking officers. All the plaques were along there except ours you see. So he said, ‘How come we’re not on there?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘621.’ Oh well,’ he said, ‘You were a special squadron.’ Special squadron. ‘You were a special squadron so they don’t put them up there.’ Well, I said, ‘That’s rubbish.’ ‘Well, no,’ he said, ‘You probably weren’t formed long enough.’ Well, I said from 1943 to ’49 or ’50. I don’t know when it was and I wasn’t interested. See what I mean?
CB: Yeah.
WS: He didn’t, he didn’t think that.
CB: It says here that 621 Squadron was formed at Port Reitz, Kenya on the 12th of September 1943.
WS: Yeah. And when was it closed?
CB: And it was disbanded when the number was changed to 18 on the 1st of September 1946.
WS: How many years ago was that?
CB: So that’s three years.
WS: They were going a bit longer than that. Well, he’s right then. Three years.
Other: So they can actually change the name of a squadron.
CB: Well sometimes because it’s a high squadron number.
WS: 18. They had Lancs didn’t they?
CB: Yeah. Probably. But anyway it was a complicated —
WS: It is.
CB: Situation. But they had so many squadrons they couldn’t continue them all.
Other: Oh I see.
CB: And what they’ve done is to keep the lower numbers because they were the ones by definition that were the oldest.
Other: Okay.
CB: Because they were formed in the First World War.
Other: Oh I see. Oh okay. That’s interesting.
WS: Yeah. It is.
CB: So how often did you fly on balance when you were out in Mogadishu, Khormaksar or whatever? Every day or every other day.
WS: About two hundred and fifty hours you see. That’s if you take a Bomber Command tour I was going to say I’m not saying you would do it one year but you could do nearly three tours in one year. Assuming you, I’ve got the survival rate. The survival rates are not all that high. In fact they’re pretty low. But for the length of time we were out there and the lads were lost in a short space of time. I remember one crew. I don’t who they are now. I wish. I’ve got their names and I have got the names of all the initial crews. They [pause] four of the five or three of the five of this crew was commissioned in the morning. Like, say they got the commission come through tomorrow morning then they’ll do tomorrow morning. And they were lost that day.
CB: Oh were they really?
WS: So that’s a loss if it’s, see you didn’t have to if, if you get in the water you’re deaded anyway. You can have all the rigmarole all your life but it’s, the ocean is a big, big place. I’m just saying so. So why did they? I don’t know. They probably, thought a year was long enough. My mate was, I told you he was out in Pershore who joined up with me. I think he went around the bend. Well you would there.
CB: He was there all the time. In Pershore.
WS: All the time. From Barry.
CB: From Barry.
WS: Yes. Yeah.
CB: Barry Island.
WS: Well he probably thought I’d never been to Barry.
CB: So we’re talking about being in a very hot area. You’re flying regularly. What did you do when you weren’t flying?
WS: Very little I should think.
CB: Football?
WS: Football.
CB: Swimming?
WS: There wasn’t much. Football in Khormaksar was diabolical. Sand’s glass. We all know that. You just had to go down. Even when I was on the boat coming home the doctor at the, halfway up the stairs said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘Oh it’s nothing. Sir. It’s just a little graze.’ ‘Take it off. And of course everybody is on the boat laughing at me. Nothing to laugh at. So, I took it off. Well, it was just an ordinary [pause] probably a bit infectious you see with the sand, ‘Alright,’ he said, ‘Put it on and see the MO in the morning.’ See what I mean? They —
CB: So what you mean is that when you fall over playing football on the sand it cuts you badly in the knee.
WS: Yeah. Diabolical.
CB: Okay.
WS: Diabolical.
CB: Right.
WS: We had, we had an officer bought, two officers, got to belong to officers to feed them. Got the photographs. I can see them now. Well, I didn’t mind the gazelle. And I’ve read letters about that. I reckon. they said it had a withered back leg. If you read about gazelles now. When cheetahs are after them where do they bite? Well, there’s only one place they bite because the gazelles are faster than them over short distances. I reckon he had its leg nipped off. Anyway, he was friends with the cheetah. My officer had bought a cheetah. I know. And he’d got to feed it.
Other: I’d have been a bit worried —
WS: Must have had more brains than sense. And they were walking around this when I was playing one day and I didn’t like the look of it at all, but I don’t know if it was harmless.
Other: I’d have been worried about it eating the football.
WS: Ridiculous. Bloody ridiculous.
CB: Just finally you’re, you’re in the, are you in the British Legion?
WS: I’m in the Legion. I’m in the RAFA.
CB: The RAF Association.
WS: Yeah. Still getting them. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. That’s really good.
WS: Yeah.
CB: And do you go to meetings of the RAF Association?
WS: Well no. But purely because now I’ve lost the car.
CB: Yeah.
WS: That’s the only reason.
CB: Good. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: There’s a correction in the interviewer’s comment about the radar in training. It’s not H2S but it was the ASV Mark 2 radar. The Mark 8 Wellington flown by Walter had an ASV Mark 3 in a nose blister centimetric radar.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Walter Raymond Stevenson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AStevensonWR151202
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:19:02 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
<p>Walter Raymond Stevenson volunteered for the RAF as soon as he was eighteen and trained as a wireless operator/air gunner, learning Morse code at RAF Yatesbury. He flew with 'sprog' pilots as they trained and was posted to Number 3 Air Gunnery School at RAF Mona. He was flying in Bothas, which he disliked, before converting to Wellingtons. Despite hating the sunshine, he was posted to a number of locations in the Middle East and Africa. He served with 621 Squadron whose role was to prevent German submarines from attacking shipping. He details the operation where he sighted submarine U852 which the crew bombed with depth chargers, visibly damaging the submarine. The commander of that submarine was later executed for the war crime of firing upon the survivors of the sinking ship, The Peleus. After demobilisation Walter returned to blacksmithing before switching to car repair work. </p>
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Great Britain
Kenya
Somalia
Middle East
Indian Ocean
Egypt--Cairo
Kenya--Mombasa
Somalia--Mogadishu
North Africa
Africa
South Sudan
South Sudan--Juba
Sudan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-10
1941
1942-05-02
1943-02-24
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Walter’s earliest memories are of being hospitalised with smallpox. He enjoyed school but left at 14. Unwilling to become a collier he migrated through butchery to blacksmithing for an occupation, but he ‘hated’ doing this. Whilst his was a reserved occupation, he wanted to join Bomber Command and ‘pay back the bombing’ that the Germans had done.
Walter was ‘called up’ to RAF Squires Gate, Blackpool for ‘square bashing’. Despite being informed that blacksmiths and joiners were desperately needed, but Walter was equally fixed on becoming aircrew. Here he learnt Morse code. Next was RAF Yatesbury to learn wireless telegraphy, before qualifying as a radio operator. He was then posted to 608 Squadron RAF Thornaby, Yorkshire, a Costal Command station. After a year there, Walter went to No 3 Air Gunnery School RAF Mona, Anglesey. Walter trained using the Botha which he thinks is a ‘horrible one’ and became a qualified air gunner. Then came RAF Hooton Part, Wirral Peninsula and OTU RAF Silloth, Cumbria. At Silloth Walter was a W/op AG flying in Wellingtons. Here he met ‘the bravest and daftest pilot in the RAF’, called Bond, James Bond. Walter was now sent to 303 FTU RAF Talbenny, Pembrokeshire.
Walter was sent to RAF Hurn, Bournemouth. From Hurn he flew to Gibraltar and then to RAF Rabat, Cairo, Middle East Command, Egypt. He whole crew then flew via Juba to Mogadishu. Before he could arrive, they were diverted to RAF Eastleigh, Mombasa, Kenya. Walter was to fly from Scusciuban, Somaliland on detachment from the squadron. He feels that this location was ‘diabolical’. There were three W/op AGs in the crew, and they rotated the wireless operator’s role with two hours on the set. The set was technically known as the IT but amongst the crew as ITV.
The navigator knew the U-852 was surfacing and its possible location. The plane was unable to fly high due to low cloud cover, so Walter was able to visually sight the U-Boat from the second dicky seat. He moved to the front air gunner’s position, and after firing on all those in or moving to the U-Boat’s conning tower, it submerged. The plane circled the area thinking that the U-Boat was ‘Whacko’ and saw it re-surface, so depth charges were dropped in a ‘stick’. The gunner aboard opened fire with 37mm. Walter feels that they were poor gunners as the plane was never hit and they were the only aircraft in the sky. After the attack to U-Boat was guided to the shore and breached. The captain was executed with two other officers from the crew as war criminals for their behaviour earlier in the war.
Walter was sent on with his squadron to assist 8 Squadron in Ade, where they received ‘red hot’ gen about the shipping. He was posted to Khormaksar then Transjordan. He was there for about six weeks for the RAF Aircraft instructor’s course, before returning to England.
Walter was never confronted with a case of LMF but is both annoyed by it and understands that it was something never discussed. He describes the differing treatment to NCOs and Officers with LMF as NCOs were punished for it, but Officers were not.
Walter was posted as a warrant officer to RAF Scampton to be the Sports Officer. He was demobbed at either RAF Conningsby or RAF Scampton in August 1946. He returned to blacksmithing, married Lilian at the Town Hall in Wycombe in 1947. Walter is in the Royal British Legion and the RAFA. He no longer attends meetings as he is without a car.
Claire Campbell
621 Squadron
8 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Botha
lack of moral fibre
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Mona
RAF Silloth
RAF Thornaby
RAF Yatesbury
sanitation
submarine
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/315/15275/LPayneAJ1315369v1.1.pdf
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Alan
Alan John Payne
Alan J Payne
Alan Payne
A J Payne
A Payne
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Alan John Payne DFC (1315369 and 173299 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He completed 18 operations as a bomb aimer with 630 Squadron.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, AJ
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Alan Payne’s South African Air Force observers or air gunners log book
Description
An account of the resource
South African Air Force observers or air gunners log book for Alan John Payne, navigator, covering the period from 7 November 1942 to 8 August 1946. Detailing his flying training, operations flown, instructor duties and post war squadron duties. He was stationed at RAF Torquay, RAF Eastbourne, RAF Brighton, RAF West Kirby, Queenstown, Port Alfred, RAF Dumfries, RAF Turweston, RAF Silverstone, RAF Winthorpe, RAF East Kirkby, RAF Husbands Bosworth, RAF Llandwrog, RAF Saltby, RAF Matching, RAF Great Dunmow, RAF Aqir and RAF Cairo West. Aircraft flown in were, Anson, Oxford, Botha, Wellington, Lancaster, Halifax and C-47. He flew a total of 18 night operations with 630 Squadron. His pilots on operations were Flying Officer Probert and Flight Lieutenant McDonald. Targets were, Berlin, Stettin, Brunswick, Magdeburg, Stuttgart, Clermont-Ferrand, Frankfurt, Nuremberg, Tours, Maille, Amiens and Kiel Bay. This was followed by glider, troop carrying duties and Prisoner of War transport with 620 Squadron. The log book also contains a menu from 10 February 1943 with signatures of those on the course.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Cara Walmsley
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LPayneAJ1315369v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
France
Germany
Great Britain
Middle East--Palestine
Poland
South Africa
Atlantic Ocean--Kiel Bay
Egypt--Cairo
England--Devon
England--Essex
England--Leicestershire
England--Merseyside
France--Amiens
France--Clermont-Ferrand
France--Tours
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Braunschweig
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Stuttgart
Middle East--Palestine
Poland--Szczecin
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
South Africa--Queenstown
Wales--Gwynedd
France--Maillé
North Africa
England--Sussex
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1943-12-02
1943-12-03
1943-12-04
1943-12-29
1943-12-30
1944-01-01
1944-01-02
1944-01-05
1944-01-06
1944-01-14
1944-01-15
1944-01-20
1944-01-21
1944-01-22
1944-01-27
1944-01-28
1944-01-30
1944-01-31
1944-02-15
1944-02-19
1944-02-20
1944-02-21
1944-02-24
1944-02-25
1944-02-26
1944-03-01
1944-03-02
1944-03-10
1944-03-11
1944-03-15
1944-03-16
1944-03-18
1944-03-19
1944-03-30
1944-03-31
1944-04-20
1944-04-21
1944-04-22
1944-04-23
1944-04-24
1944-04-25
1944-04-26
1944-04-27
1944-04-29
1944-04-30
1944-05-01
1944-05-02
1944-05-03
1944-05-04
1944-05-07
1944-05-08
1944-05-19
1944-05-20
1944-05-21
1944-05-22
1661 HCU
1665 HCU
17 OTU
620 Squadron
630 Squadron
85 OTU
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Botha
C-47
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 109
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
prisoner of war
RAF Aqir
RAF Dumfries
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Saltby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Torquay
RAF Turweston
RAF Winthorpe
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1246/16416/MNealeETH1395951-150731-0790001.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1246/16416/MNealeETH1395951-150731-0790002.1.jpg
60ebc4a9260de11ed3d8115e3571d424
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e9157436b0f6a6368b585a24b8d23db2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Neale, Ted
E T H Neale
Description
An account of the resource
123 items. The collection concerns Edward Thomas Henry Neale (b. 1922, 1395951 Royal Air Force) who served as a navigator with 37 Squadron in North Africa, the Middle East and Italy. The collection contains his training notebooks from South Africa as well as propaganda leaflets dropped by the allies in the Mediterranean theatre.
The collection also contains a photograph album, navigation logs and target photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alison Neale and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Neale, ETH
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Transport Command Ticket and Envelope
Description
An account of the resource
A ticket and envelope issued to Ted Neale for a flight from Algiers to Cairo.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
RAF Transport Command
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1946-01-04
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One printed sheet with handwritten annotations and an envelope
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0790001,
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0790002,
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0790003,
MNealeETH1395951-150731-0790004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Algeria
Algeria--Algiers
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
North Africa
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1946-01
aircrew
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1246/16858/MNealeETH1395951-150731-105.1.jpg
15ab99bd11ff3d771c524018fbfb396a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Neale, Ted
E T H Neale
Description
An account of the resource
123 items. The collection concerns Edward Thomas Henry Neale (b. 1922, 1395951 Royal Air Force) who served as a navigator with 37 Squadron in North Africa, the Middle East and Italy. The collection contains his training notebooks from South Africa as well as propaganda leaflets dropped by the allies in the Mediterranean theatre.
The collection also contains a photograph album, navigation logs and target photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alison Neale and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Neale, ETH
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
M H Soliman advertising leaflet
Description
An account of the resource
An advertising leaflet produced by M H Soliman & Co of the Allied Troops Bazaar, Azhar Street, Cairo. The company produces incense and perfumes from oriental flowers.
Creator
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MH Soliman & Co, Azhar Street, Cairo
Format
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One printed sheet
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MNealeETH1395951-150731-105
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
North Africa
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1247/17040/PLeckieW1901.2.jpg
66b1611784af6fa1e98248f944c26165
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1247/17040/ALeckieW190322.2.mp3
ed629a3eb9fa65452055ce8345280bde
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leckie, Bill
William Leckie
W Leckie
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Bill Leckie (1921 - 2021). He flew operations as a pilot with 216 and 77 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-03-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Leckie, W
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Alistair Montgomery and the interviewee is Mr Bill Leckie, Flight Lieutenant Bill Leckie or Captain Bill Leckie. The interview is taking place at Bill’s lovely home in Troon. Bill, good afternoon.
BL: Good afternoon, Monty.
AM: Bill, tell me just a little bit about your family background and where you lived prior to joining the Royal Air Force.
BL: Well, to go back to where I was started living. That was Glasgow. I was born in Glasgow. I lived there for about seven years and then my father, he suffered with bronchitis. He had been a heavy smoker and that’s his problem. It was his problem, and he was told he would have to get away from the city so he got a transfer to the more or less the country which was fine because he was a country born himself and brought up in the country, and same with my mother. They were both country people so they were quite happy and there was, he got a place with a bit of ground attached to it which he never really managed to make it, you know [pause] you know, a living from. But he got some a poultry farm he ought to expand it in to but it never took place. So, I was brought up on that basis in the country, and then that was fine. And when I was, oh what would I be now? I think I would be what, eighteen when I joined the Air Force. I did want to join as a boy service but my mother and dad wouldn’t agree to it, and so I had to wait until the war came along and I was called up.
AM: Right.
BL: And I spent five years in the Air Force.
AM: So, when, when you were called up where did you go for your, for your basic training?
BL: That was mainly [pause] I’ll get the name in a minute. Babbacombe.
AM: Babbacombe. Right.
BL: Yeah, Number 1 ITW. Babbacombe.
AM: Right. By the sea.
BL: By the sea.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s where I did my ITW as they called it.
AM: Right. So —
BL: I was called up and I went to St John’s Wood in London. That was my first full time encounter with the Service as such. From being called up and going along and signing in and being asked what I wanted to do, that was about I think about three months before I finally went to, well I went to St John’s Wood first of all.
AM: Right.
BL: As a reception. And from St John’s Wood I went down to Babbacombe to do my ITW.
AM: Right. And what was that like?
BL: That was fine. That was good. Quite, fairly intensive, but I don’t think we were, we were too badly done by.
AM: Right [laughs] and did you know at that stage that you were going to undertake pilot training?
BL: I knew at that stage. Right from the beginning.
AM: Right.
BL: Because that’s what I asked to be, you know at the initial call up. They said, ‘Oh, what would you like to be?’ And I said, ‘A pilot.’ They sat reading my papers and fortunately enough my name must have come out of the hat. I don’t know.
AM: Right. I mean did you do any specific tests to assess whether you were better as a pilot or as something else then?
BL: No. No.
AM: Right.
BL: No. I went straight on to the pilot course.
AM: Right. So when you finished your square bashing what happened then?
BL: Oh. What did we do after that? Oh, yes. We rolled up to, oh what was the place? The aircrew centre at, near Manchester.
AM: Right.
BL: And I spent, I expected to spend quite some time there. Instead all I’d spent was three days and I was put on a, you know, what would you call it? A group, and we were told we were going overseas.
AM: Right.
BL: And simply because they came up to, to Greenock, I mean I recognised the place. I knew where I was, but I was just when we got off the train and then straight on board the ship, you know.
AM: Right.
BL: The train ran out on to the jetty where the ship was moored.
AM: Right.
BL: And that was me on my way across the water there over to Canada. We arrived in Halifax.
AM: Right. And was the, was the sea crossing uneventful?
BL: Uneventful.
AM: Right. Thank goodness for that.
BL: Yeah. We had a fast ship and we had another ship which kept us company.
AM: Right.
BL: It wasn’t, you know a Navy ship or anything like that. A ship that had been converted into I think, what did they call them?
AM: A troopship.
BL: Yeah. A troopship. Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: I think so. Yeah. Well, the first ship and then another ship. I don’t know what the other ship was carrying but I think it was a troop ship as well.
AM: Right.
BL: And we had this ship escorting us.
AM: Right.
BL: And we eventually finished up in Halifax. We got on the train in Halifax and that took us down to Detroit. We went to Detroit from there, and we spent what you might say initial training in Detroit, probably part of it, and when we finished our time in Detroit which was a kind of square bashing effort we moved down to Pensacola.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s where we started to do our flying properly. We did a few trips in Detroit so we did on a, it was an old biplane to begin with and then we got a slightly newer Stearman. But anyway down to Pensacola and there we flew the old MP1 as it was called which was an aircraft that the American Navy had built themselves. They built aircraft during the war, but the original aircraft, and then we got off them on to more modern Stearmans and finished our flying then.
AM: And how did you find the flying training? Was it a challenge or did you find it fairly straightforward? Or —
BL: Oh, no. Well, to me it was a challenge. I had to keep myself, you know [pause] I never found it easy. No. No. No.
AM: What was the element you found hardest? Was it instruments or aerobatics or —
BL: Aerobatics.
AM: Right.
BL: Aerobatics. I don’t think I could have been a, you know, a fighter pilot. I don’t think so.
AM: Right.
BL: So, I got what I wanted. The big aircraft. And that’s what I got. I actually didn’t. I mean, I had, when I was chosen to go on to the Flying Boats that was what I had in my mind and I thought I’d got them but no.
AM: But you did some Catalina flying in America.
BL: Oh, yes. That’s right.
AM: Tell me a wee bit about that. What that was like?
BL: It was just all training. There was never any, you know actual what you might say offensive work but it was all these long trips training. I think that the longest trip we did, in my mind anyway was the twelve hour trip.
AM: Oh gosh.
BL: And they were just in a sense letting you see what it was like to travel [laughs] You know.
AM: And was it easy to fly? The Catalina.
BL: No. It wasn’t easy to fly. It was a very sluggish aircraft.
AM: Right.
BL: If you wanted to make a left or a right hand turn you had to think about it, you know quite a little while before you went into the turn and that because even though you used the controls she was very slow at responding to them. So you were always, in a sense you had to be ahead of yourself but other than that they were fine. Yeah.
AM: So, so then you finished in the Catalina is that when you came back to —
BL: Yes.
AM: To the UK.
BL: Sent back to the UK to wait for a posting to a Boat squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: I never knew whether I would. I was to be going on a Short Sunderland or the Catalina again and I didn’t know. We were, we stayed in Harrogate for, I think for six weeks waiting on a posting.
AM: Right.
BL: We came back to Harrogate from the States.
AM: So there you are in Harrogate fully expecting to become, to become a maritime pilot. To become a Flying Boat pilot.
BL: That’s what I expected to go on to.
AM: Right. So, tell me what actually happened then.
BL: I don’t know. It just happened. There was no postings came up for a Boat squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: And I then had to go to Little Rissington and convert in to the Bomber Command.
AM: Right.
BL: From, oh I forget now. What was the [pause] it doesn’t matter, I think. No. The flying, the Flying Boat commander. What was that called again?
AM: Maritime.
BL: It was maritime anyway.
AM: Yeah.
BL: Yeah. So, as I say I went to Little Rissington, converted on to an, on to an Oxford and then from the Oxfords I finally got posted to a squadron to do an OTU which was up in the north of Scotland at Lossiemouth.
AM: Right.
BL: I think it was.
AM: And what, what did you fly at Lossiemouth?
BL: Wellingtons.
AM: Right.
BL: To begin with it was Whitleys. We had a Whitley to begin with.
AM: And did you have your own crew at that stage?
BL: No. No. Not all of it. And I never flew in a Wellington. That’s not right. I flew the Whitley and I had a part crew.
AM: Right.
BL: I think I was missing an engineer. Yeah. I think it was the engineer and then from, from there I was posted down to York. And then from York I was posted to [pause] no. I must have done another. Before that happened I was posted to Stoke Orchard for some AFU flying.
AM: Right.
BL: And then from there I was posted up to Forres actually. More so than Lossiemouth. I didn’t fly from Lossiemouth. It was Forres I flew from, and I flew the Whitley then.
AM: Right.
BL: And then from there I was posted down to Harrogate and then I joined 77 Squadron.
AM: Right. And what, what aircraft did they have then?
BL: There they were the Halifax.
AM: Right. The Halifax.
BL: Yeah. That was Group. 4 Group. And 4 Group were Halifaxes.
AM: Right. And had you crewed up by this stage?
BL: When I got to Harrogate that was when I picked up my engineer.
AM: Right. So how did, how did, tell me a little bit about this process of getting your crew together then.
BL: Well, that was left up to ourselves to pick who we wanted and I had it in my mind I wanted to have an all Scottish crew.
AM: Right.
BL: And I nearly achieved my purpose. I had all, I had I would say six crew plus myself and I had five, and needed an engineer. No. A sparks. I had an engineer. There was a sparks I was missing.
AM: Right.
BL: A wireless operator.
AM: Right.
BL: I couldn’t get anybody who was Scottish. This was what was, we were given, I think we were given a week, I can’t remember but they had to be, had to get it done. If you didn’t get it done yourself then they would do it for you. Whoever was in charge. And I had got the five and I was left with one and that was the engineer and I had a day to go. That was all. So, I thought well I’ll have to pick on somebody. I did ask a chap and he was quite happy. Yes. That was ok. He would come and join them and blow me down but the next day a chap came up to me, a Scottish lad and this chap who had asked to come as, you know the last member of the crew he was English and the lad who came up to me the next day was Scottish. I just missed out on the all Scottish crew.
AM: Right.
BL: So I don’t think there would have been too many of those, you know.
AM: No. I don’t think so at all. So, by the time you got to the squadron about how many Halifax sorties had you done on the OTU, roughly?
BL: I would say very few. I mean my first operational trip was to a place called Russelsheim in Germany. And I only did I think three or four trips altogether when I found myself in the CO’s office saying to me that there was a posting he would like to, ‘Would you like to go on a posting somewhere else?’ He said. And I said, ‘Yeah. I don’t mind.’ He says, ‘Well, we’ll have you posted and your crew and you’ll be leaving tonight.’ Just like that [laughs] And that’s what happened and we moved, we flew down to [pause] it’s a Transport Command station in the south of England. Still in operation today and I can’t think of the name of it.
AM: Was it, was it Lyneham?
BL: No. No. No. It wasn’t far from Lyneham but it wasn’t Lyneham. It was another name. So we spent a night. Yeah. We spent the night there. We flew down there and spent the night and the following night we boarded a Hudson not going, not knowing where we were going. Just going on to, there was, you know another crew and ourselves and flying out as passengers. Nobody told you where you were going and it wasn’t, the first place we touched down at on the way out was Gibraltar to refuel and get breakfast. We had breakfast of bacon and eggs.
AM: Right [laughs]
BL: And then we took off and we flew along the north coast of Africa until we got to [pause] I can’t remember now though I did, I think we [pause] yes we landed at what was called Cairo West. It was an airfield. The airport or the airfield was in the desert.
AM: Right.
BL: And that’s where we landed and that was with 216 Squadron, which was the squadron I had been posted to. That’s where it operated from, this squadron in the desert.
AM: And this was still on the Halifax.
BL: And they were flying DC3s then.
AM: Right.
BL: Left the Halifax behind.
AM: But you flew the Halifax in Italy did you not?
BL: When I went up to, when I went up to there. When I got posted there. From there I got posted up to Naples and then in Naples I was posted down to Brindisi and they were fitted out with Halifaxes.
AM: Right. Which Mark of Halifaxes was that?
BL: It was the Mark, the Mark 2 I think it was.
AM: Right. And what was the, what was the role of that squadron?
BL: That was a special duties squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: So that was simply feeding the guerrilla fighters, if you like with guns, ammunition, and food and clothing and they would go and do drops wherever they set up a dropping zone.
AM: And was, whereabouts were these drop zones? Yugoslavia or —
BL: Mainly in the Yugoslav. Mainly in the Balkans.
AM: Right.
BL: Various places in the Balkans and usually they would be somewhere in a clearing in the hills. There was usually hills around about you.
AM: Yeah.
BL: You seldom got a, you know a dropping zone which was clear.
AM: And were these drops being done by day or by night?
BL: By day.
AM: Right. And what sort of height were you dropping from?
BL: About eight hundred to five hundred feet.
AM: Oh, my God. And was it mainly stores or people or both?
BL: No. There was some people. Joes we called them. We went some, there were two or three flights with Joes on board but mainly it was supplies.
AM: Right.
BL: It was. And —
AM: I understand you were involved with dropping some of the agents involved with the recovery of the Nazi art, is that correct?
BL: That’s right. Yes. That was as I say. That took place. Not that I knew it at the time but there is a book written about it.
AM: Right. This one. “The Monument Men.” Is that it?
BL: The, “Monument Men.” Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: Right. Yes. I flew them in to where we had to drop them off and where they were going was we landed on a plateau and as I say it was Norway. We didn’t land on the plateau. We dropped them off over the target.
AM: Right.
BL: And it was snow covered at the time. It was in the wintertime, and we left them at that and where they were going was down in to the valley and we could see the lights.
AM: In to Berchtesgaden area was it?
BL: Pardon?
AM: Was that at Berchtesgaden in southern Germany? Or was it —
BL: No. That wasn’t the name. There’s another name for it. It’s mentioned in the “Monument Men.”
AM: Right.
BL: But I can’t think of it. Anyway —
AM: Did you ever have a chance to talk to these people you were going to drop?
BL: I didn’t but my mid-upper gunner did.
AM: Right.
BL: Well, that was his previous job. That’s what, he’d been trained as a mid-upper gunner but when we were flying as the special duties which we had done most of, we had only done three or four bombing trips. He got talking the odd time but most times the people, they didn’t speak English or they wouldn’t speak English whatever way it was. They didn’t say anything about what they had to do.
AM: Right.
BL: There was, there was one story came back to us. I think it really came back to us. One story came back. One story came back saying we’d dropped them in the wrong place and well as far as I was concerned and the navigator was concerned we dropped them where we were told when we got our briefing before going off on the flight. And sometime later we discovered that it was a habit of the ops people that they would be there telling us where we were going. Not telling us where we were going but telling us a false place. In other words the idea that was that somebody had been talking to us, or we inadvertently said something about where we were going to do the drops but we wouldn’t be there because that was all changed.
AM: So it was a decoy really.
BL: It was a decoy. Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: And the final dropping zone we got when we went to our final briefing, not until then.
AM: Let, let me just take you back a bit to your, your early bombing sorties on, on the Halifax when you were still based in, in Yorkshire.
BL: York.
AM: Yeah. At Elvington and Full Sutton. What was your first bombing sortie? Was that a day sortie or a night sortie?
BL: No. It was a night sortie.
AM: Right.
BL: I went as a second pilot actually.
AM: Right. And what was that like having for the first time — ?
BL: We were bombing from I think about ten thousand feet and that was just you know all the lights and everything else. I’d never seen anything like it.
AM: No. There was a lot of flak.
BL: Yes. There was some flak. Yes. But I just did the one trip, you know.
AM: Right. And then you went off with your own crew.
BL: Yes.
AM: And what were the first bombing sorties you did then?
BL: Well, again that was just the [pause] the next day. I never knew what we were dropping you know in a sense of what our bomb load was.
AM: Right.
BL: Never, never sort of saw into that. The only thing was that there was one trip we had to do and that was daylight trip. We were supposed to be bombing behind the British lines but before we got there. I mean in France this was.
AM: Right.
BL: But before we actually got to the, where we were supposed to be dropping these behind the British lines, as it were word came through the radio operator that we had to return home and drop our bombs in the Channel. The operation was off. It was cancelled. And of course they didn’t want you landing with live bombs.
AM: No.
BL: At the airport. So that’s what happened. That was the only time it did happen and we dropped them in the, in the Channel.
AM: Right. So these were sorties to support the British troops in Normandy.
BL: That’s right.
AM: Right. And did you do any sorties against the V-1 sites or —
BL: No. No. Aye. Probably we did. But I didn’t —
AM: You mentioned Russelsheim in Germany.
BL: Yeah. That was the very first trip I did.
AM: Right.
BL: That was a night trip.
AM: Right.
BL: But I think that’s why it sticks in my mind.
AM: I can imagine. And were most of those sorties you did at that stage day trips?
BL: No. No. Only because, only, we only did three or four trips. I should go and get my log book and look it.
AM: Yeah. You can do. [unclear]
BL: That’s fine. That’ll do it.
[recording paused]
AM: Perfect.
BL: I think it was Full Sutton. That was where I was at, look.
AM: Yeah. Bill, if you can just tell me a wee bit about what life was like at, at Full Sutton.
BL: Well, I can’t say that there was any outstanding other than just if there was an operational on we’d get our briefing during the day we had, spent at you know in the camp or went in to York. Like I say I spent a lot of time on my own. I didn’t go around with a group of lads.
AM: Right.
BL: I was, I suppose I was considered a loner.
AM: Right.
BL: So there was nothing.
AM: So, what was, what was the social life in the mess like?
BL: Well, it was alright. I mean, I just met up, you know, I knew a few lads. There was one other chap that we were, I was quite, kind of friendly with that kept in touch after the war as well but he has died. He died several years ago.
AM: Right.
BL: I’m trying to remember now. Something about [pause] you see my memory’s gone now.
AM: I think all of us suffer a bit from our memory’s fading a wee bit.
BL: My memory’s gone for lots of things.
AM: So when you, when you, when you left the RAF and, and joined the Reserve where did you move to then?
BL: Well, we used to go to Grangemouth.
AM: Right.
BL: And we’d go there, you know for I would not only get there on a Sunday I didn’t get there every weekend and I never spent a weekend at Grangemouth but I went there and did fly in a Tiger Moth over there.
AM: Right.
BL: So that was really what we did at Grangemouth.
AM: And what sort of flying was that in the Tiger Moth? Was it flying cadets or —
BL: No.
AM: Just training.
BL: Just training. We had a good commander there. You’d go off, off solo.
AM: Yeah.
BL: You know, you passed out and I mean most of the flying was done solo so that was interesting. And as I say was [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of it.
AM: And where were you working at this stage?
BL: Well, to begin with, before I joined up I was working in a cinema as a projectionist.
AM: Right.
BL: And when I came back I went back to the company and I got a job back again as a projectionist. And then from there I left that and I went to work at the Hoover people in the Hoover factory. That was just simply a production job. I was just checking out the, the [pause] what would you call it now, what would you call it? The electric. They were making electric motors.
AM: Yes.
BL: And that was a question you had to check. Just, I mean it was a dead simple job.
AM: And was this at Cambuslang?
BL: That was at Cambuslang.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s right.
AM: So, what did the people around about you think about having an RAF pilot working in the Hoover factory? They must have remarked on it.
BL: Well, I don’t think anybody knew. I don’t think anybody were any the wiser.
AM: No.
BL: I never talked about it.
AM: You never told them.
BL: No.
AM: Right. That’s amazing. Right. I suppose that must have been quite common after the war. That people went from being, you know aircraft captains.
BL: Oh aye.
AM: To being, working on a shop floor.
BL: Yeah. Well, you see I was lucky enough, I don’t remember now but I mean as I say I joined up in the Reserve, and there was an exhibition in Glasgow in the Kelvin Hall and the RAF VR had a stand there. So naturally I went along there and talked to them and that’s when I joined up again.
AM: Right.
BL: Went back into the Reserves and then started going to Grangemouth and doing some flying from Grangemouth. And then Grangemouth closed down and I went to Perth. Again, it was just weekend flying for a wee while but eventually I got a job in Perth as a staff pilot.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s what started me off.
AM: Right.
BL: You know. Up until then I was just sort of dodging around. I really hadn’t a proper job, a fixed job when I came back.
AM: And were you married by this time?
BL: I’d got married by then. Yes.
AM: Aye. So you needed a steady job.
BL: Yeah.
AM: So where did you go from [Airworks]?
BL: Aer Lingus
AM: Right. So you moved to Ireland.
BL: We moved to Ireland. Yes.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s right.
AM: And when you started with Aer Lingus what were you flying?
BL: A DC3.
AM: Right. So, that was something you knew.
BL: That’s exactly. That’s why I got the job.
AM: Right. And how long did you fly the DC3 with Aer Lingus for?
BL: Quite a long while.
AM: Right.
BL: Because that’s all they had.
AM: Right.
BL: Were DC3s but eventually they got —
AM: Was it a Viscount?
BL: Viscounts.
AM: Right.
BL: Viscounts. That was it. They got the Viscount and then they got the others. What was that called? It was a Dutch plane. F something.
AM: Oh, F-27.
BL: F-27, that’s right.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I knew those so I flew those.
AM: Right. Nice aeroplane.
BL: It was. Yes. And what did I do after that?
AM: Did you not finish on the Boeing?
BL: I might. I finished on the Boeing at Aer Lingus. Yes.
AM: Right. So, it was the first —
BL: When I went to Aer Lingus that was the last employer I had.
AM: Right. And what, was the Boeing 737 the first jet aeroplane you flew?
BL: I would say so. Yes.
AM: I think that’s fantastic.
BL: Yes. I went to the States to convert on to it.
AM: Right.
BL: Yeah. Yeah. So it was, in fact it was the first 737 to be flying in Europe. So it was.
AM: Right.
BL: At that time.
AM: Right. So that’s quite an accolade to go over and pick up the first 737.
BL: Yeah.
AM: And when you retired you were on the Boeing 737.
BL: Yes.
AM: Right.
BL: Yes. I never left them. Oh, well I did actually. I flew the 70, 720 for a while. I did, oh I spent the best part of a year I think, six months or a year as a navigator. They were short of navigators.
AM: Gosh.
BL: At one period when they were flying the Atlantic and they were using the 720 I think it was. And I flew in that as the navigator. Didn’t fly as a pilot.
AM: Right.
BL: I was a navigator because I had my navigator’s licence.
AM: Right.
BL: And then when I finished that section I got moved into the pilot’s seat. The co-pilot, and just continued from there and eventually moved over in to the captain’s seat.
AM: Right.
BL: Finished my time as a captain. I wish in a way you know it was all down in writing and not up here.
AM: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
BL: Because I can’t remember.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I can’t remember now an awful lot. My memory is actually worse now than it used to be.
AM: Bill, it’s a remarkable story and it’s been a great pleasure listening to you, and meeting you and hearing the story of your life.
BL: I’ve been [pause] It’s been an enjoyable life.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I’ve been lucky. Very lucky, with all the different places I went to. Were able to fly from.
AM: Yeah.
BL: With different aircraft.
AM: And flown some lovely aeroplanes. Bill, thank you. I’ll switch that off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Leckie.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alastair Montgomery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-03-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALeckieW190322
PLeckieW1901
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:39:32 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Leckie Bill was born in Glasgow but moved to the countryside as his father suffered from bronchitis. Initially working as a cinema projectionist, Bill joined the Royal Air Force at the age of eighteen, enlisting at St John’s Wood in London as a trainee pilot. Bill undertook basic training at RAF Babbacombe in Devon before being sent overseas to Halifax, Canada. He was then sent onwards to Pensacola for flying training, where his flying training included Stearmans. Bill found aerobatics hard and thought he would prefer flying the flying boats. He flew Catalinas, which he describes as sluggish and slow to respond to control inputs. Bill was then sent back to Harrogate in the United Kingdom waiting for a posting, expecting to be sent to fly flying boats as part of Coastal Command. Instead he was sent to Bomber Command at RAF Little Rissington where he trained on Oxfords before being sent to an operational training unit at RAF Lossiemouth. There he flew Whitleys and Wellingtons. Bill was then posted to 77 Squadron in Harrogate to fly the Halifaxes. With his Scottish crew, he took part in a handful of operations from RAF Elvington and RAF Full Sutton. Later, Bill was flown to Cairo via Gibraltar to join 216 Squadron. Bill was also stationed at Brindisi in Italy, flying the Halifax Mk2 as part of a ‘special duties’ squadron dropping supplies and agents, mainly in the Balkans. He took part in dropping agents sent to recover the Nazi’s looted art works. After the war, Bill returned to his job as a cinema projectionist and then later joined Hoover, working in production. Later, Bill moved to Ireland and flew with the airline Aer Lingus, where he flew several types, including the Douglas DC-3 pilot and Vickers Viscount. Before his retirement, Bill was flying some of the first Boeing 737 jet airliners in Europe, having been trained in the United States.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Andy Shaw
Julie Williams
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Nova Scotia
Nova Scotia--Halifax
United States
Florida
Florida--Pensacola
England--Devon
England--Yorkshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Harrogate
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Italy
Italy--Brindisi
Ireland
Florida
Great Britain
216 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
C-47
Catalina
crewing up
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Heavy Conversion Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Elvington
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Lossiemouth
Resistance
Special Operations Executive
Stearman
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1169/18230/LTurnerAJ561939v1.2.pdf
43ed719a9a2d6da6738aa42b6be8b63c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Turner, John
Albion John Turner
A J Turner
Description
An account of the resource
<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/228620/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"></a>116 items. Concerns Flight Sergeant Albion John Turner (1911 - 1939, 561939 Royal Air Force) who joined the RAF as an apprentice in 1927. After service as a fitter he re-mustered as a pilot in 1935 and after training served on 216 Squadron flying Vickers Victoria and Valentia before moving to 9 Squadron on Handley Page Heyfords in 1936. He converted to Wellingtons February 1939 and was killed when his aircraft was shot down on 4 September 1939 during operations against shipping at Brunsbüttel. Collection consists of an oral history interview with Penny Turner his daughter (b. 1938), correspondence, official documents, his logbook and photographs. <br /><br />Additional information on Albion John Turner <span>is available via the </span><a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/228620/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">IBCC Losses Database</a><br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Penny Turner and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Turner, J
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Turner's pilot's flying log book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LTurnerAJ561939v1
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Pilots flying log book for A J Turner, covering the period from 18 February 1935 to 31st August 1939. Detailing his flying training and pre-war flying duties with 216 Squadron and 9 Squadron. He was stationed in Egypt and at RAF Aldergrove, RAF Scampton, RAF Stradishall and RAF Honington. Aircraft flown were, Avro 504N, Fairy Gordon, Atlas, Hart, Audax, Victoria, Valentia, Heyford, Tiger Moth, Magister and Wellington. The log book finishes at the outbreak of the Second World War.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Great Britain
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Northern Ireland--Crumlin
North Africa
Egypt--Cairo
Great Britain
216 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
Flying Training School
Magister
pilot
RAF Honington
RAF Scampton
RAF Stradishall
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington