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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/19/43/PAutonJ1503.1.jpg
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Auton, Jim
J Auton
Description
An account of the resource
26 items. The collection relates to Sergeant Jim Auton MBE (1924 - 2020). He was badly injured when his 178 Squadron B-24 was hit by anti-aircraft fire during an operation from Italy. The collection contains an oral history interview and ten photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jim Auton and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
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2015-07-30
Identifier
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Auton, J
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: Well Jim, perhaps we could start with your date and place of birth please?
JA: Yes I was born at Henlow, my father was an officer in the RAF and he happened to be stationed at Henlow when I happened to be born.
CB: And what date was that?
JA: That was the 13th of April, 1924
CB: And what do you remember about your childhood?
JA: I remember when he was transferred to Cranwell, I started infant school at Cranwell and we had to walk across the aerodrome to school, and there were about twenty of us and we were told to walk in groups together and if you see an aeroplane coming in, stand still [emphasis] so he can avoid you and we used to see aeroplanes coming in to land on the grass field, they were bi-planes of course and we’d wave to the pilot and if he waved back to us that made our day because pilots were our heroes and we all wanted to be like daddy and join the RAF when we were old enough and next to the school playground there was an aircraft dump, old fuselages, they’d taken the engines out and the instruments but we’d climb into the cockpits and stand there and go ‘dud dud du du’, we were shooting down Germans when we were five years old, we knew the Germans were the enemy, I don’t think our government knew at the time.
CB: So you have happy memories of your childhood in Cranwell?
JA: Yes, and then of course we, he was stationed at Manston and we could go in the workshop and see the fitters working on the planes, they never told us to shove off, and we liked the smell of dope on the aircraft on the canvas and, but when they took an aircraft to the butts to synchronise the guns, they’d jack up the tails to get the plane horizontal and we’d stand around with our fingers in their ears while they were shooting into the pile of sand in the butts, and then when an aircraft broke down we used to rush out across the aerodrome to help the man, help the men push it and for kids it was marvellous, we loved aeroplanes.
CB: So do you think that’s what started your desire to join the air force later on?
JA: Well you see I was brought up on RAF stations, RAF camps and I didn’t know any other life, we were isolated from the outside community, we had free medical treatment, free dental treatment, we were in married quarters most of the time where even the crockery was provided, all the linen and everything, so our whole life was in the air force until we were adults, so naturally we all wanted to be pilots when we grew up, and when the war was announced I thought ‘oh good they’ll need more pilots now’ [slight laugh]
CB: So off you went to volunteer.
JA: Well when I was seventeen I couldn’t wait, I went to join up, and I registered as a pilot but I found later they put me down pilot navigator or rather pilot observer as it was in those days so they could change me any time they wanted, and I started flying training as a pilot and then when they introduced the four engine bombers they didn’t need two pilots, so they would have a pilot and a bomb airman who had done some flying training and he in an emergency would be able to take over from the first pilot so the bomber was a second pilot, but and [slight pause] I started flying in England but the German intruders flying over us, over England were shooting us down in our training planes, so the Government opened the Empire Air Training scheme.
CB: Where did you do your initial training?
JA: At Ansty near Coventry and then after much delay because flying schools were all full and there was a waiting time, I was sent to South Africa as a navigator and I trained there as a navigator, but I wasn’t very keen on being a navigator so I also trained as an air bomber, because I knew air bombers would be allowed to pilot the plane, in an emergency, and even during training the staff pilots would allow me to take out over and fly the Oxfords and Ansons because that’s all I wanted to do really and so I trained as a navigator and a bomb airman.
CB: What about your journey down to South Africa?
JA: That was marvellous, hundreds and hundreds of them on a small Liberty ship. We were told you mustn’t be below decks during daylight, so we had to stay on the top deck in all weathers and there wasn’t room for everybody to sit down, so if somebody stood up you immediately sat in that place and some of the troops perched on the ship’s rails until they broadcast anybody falling over will drown because the ship will not stop to pick anybody up, so we couldn’t sit on the rails so we had to stand up sometimes for ten, nine or ten hours, during the day, we were fed twice a day, seven in the morning and seven in the evening and the food was like an airways meal on a tray and it wasn’t enough to keep us alive and I asked the crew, it was an American Liberty ship and the crew were Filipinos and Negroes and I asked them ‘do you have this terrible food that we have?’ and they said ‘no we’ve got plenty of food’, they said ‘if you come and work in the kitchen for us, we’ll let you have our food’, so I spent couple of weeks washing up dirty dishes until the heat got too bad and I went back on the troop deck again, but during my time in the kitchen I was allowed to sneak some food out for my friends [slight laugh] who didn’t work in the kitchen, that was all unofficial of course.
CB: Was it better food in the kitchen or just more of it?
JA: More of it and better.
CB: So they were keeping you on starving rations basically?
JA: Yes, yes, eventually the doctor said I was suffering from severe physical debility but that was much later, we were on this ship for six weeks and they warned us we were in shark infested waters and the ship wouldn’t stop for anybody falling over board, but it was quite an interesting voyage except the sun was dreadful in the tropics and there was no shade, and the officer in charge of troops thought that we were cadet officers because we wore a white flash in our caps but we weren’t and when we got to Sierra Leone Freetown somebody must have told him we were not potential officers and he said ‘right, you’ll have to do all the duties’, fire picket, fatigues, peeling potatoes and all sort of things like that and guard duty for the rest of the voyage, another three weeks and my name beginning with an A, I was one of the first to be chosen for guard duty and it was a stinking hot day and we were anchored off Freetown to re-fuel and I found a hatchway and a collapsible chair and I sat in that hatchway and dozed off because I’d had no sleep, we couldn’t sleep on the deck as it was too hot and the smell of the engine oil, and I dozed off and suddenly I was awoken when the ship’s officer came round on his inspection with the ships warrant officer and they bellowed at me ‘what are you on? sleeping duty?’ and I said ‘yes, sir’ because I didn’t like to say no to anybody in authority and they said ‘you’re under arrest in five minutes’, ‘oh dear’ I thought ‘I’ll be all on my own in prison’, the brig, the ship’s prison was below the water line, it was nice and cool and I wasn’t on my own, there were eleven other air crew cadets in there with me and the police who looked after us took us round for dinner wearing their caps and then they said ‘you keep your mouths shut and we’ll go round again’ and they took their caps off and we had a second dinner, so being in the brig wasn’t so bad, except we were locked in and we were below the water line and there were submarines about, so we thought if, if a submarine hit we’ll certainly drown like rats in a trap but it didn’t happen of course.
CB: It must have been quite a relief to get to South Africa after all that?
JA: We anchored off in Table Bay about quarter of a mile from land and the dock workers had a big lump of rusty steel plate and they wrote on it in chalk: ‘plenty of food, plenty of women, plenty of booze’ [laughs] and the next day we docked in the harbour and we were told you will be discharged tomorrow, and there was nearly a riot because we’d been cooped up for six weeks and eventually they said ‘Ok, you can go into town but you must be back at midnight so we all went into town, it was paradise, things we hadn’t seen for years like pineapples and peaches and plenty of food and so we goaded a kind of a restaurant run by volunteers for service men and some old ladies served dinner, so we had a three course dinner and when we finished they said ‘would you like anything else’, and we said ‘could we have it again please?’, so we had another three course dinner, then we had half a dozen bananas on the way back to the ship [laughs] and we brought a coconut, it was paradise, but at flying school wasn’t so funny, the day we arrived we were told that five aircraft had crashed and twenty five air crew had been killed, that’s five pilots and two navigators in each plane and two bomber men in each plane, five men in each plane and the reason was the staff pilots had been low flying round a hospital where somebody’s wife was working and all five crashed (these would be Ansons?) they were Ansons and they, we were told report those pilots for low flying in future but we didn’t do that because we liked low flying because stooging about high up isn’t much fun, but low flying is exciting [clears throat].
So after training in South Africa [coughs] for nearly a year we went up by stages through central Africa, Rhodesia, Kenya, Tanganyika, Uganda, the Sudan to Egypt where we found we were going to live in the Heliopolis Palace Hotel, marvellous [emphasis] but when we entered we found there were no beds, no furniture of any description and we had to sleep on the marble floors and our kit had been left behind in South Africa so we only had the clothes we were standing up in, so I wrapped my shoes in a towel to use as a pillow and lay my uniform down on the marble floor and slept on that, I found that I had to sleep on my back otherwise my hip stuck into the marble and it hurt [slight laugh] and then, I was then sent to Palestine where there was a war, the Jews and the Arabs were fighting each other and both sides were fighting the British Palestine police and while I was there they blew up the radio station and they blew up hotels, and people were fighting in the streets and I thought ‘I haven’t got into the war yet but I’m going to get shot by our own police’, and they had said to us, because we each had a revolver, ‘hand in the revolvers in the armoury, so I went down to the armoury which was in the cellar of the hotel and I handed my revolver in, and I saw the men there were mounting twin machine guns on a platform to be carried on a lorry, so it was a war, but then we were then transferred to Lidder, after going back to Egypt and wasting some more time sleeping in the western dessert on the sand, we had to empty our shoes thoroughly because there was scorpions in the dessert and the sand was almost too hot to walk on and the authorities had laid a tarmac path but it never hardens and it was like sticky toffee so we couldn’t walk on that [slight laugh]
CB: And this was part of your flying training or were they just moving you from place to place?
JA: Moving us around, and then we went to Lidder for a conversion course, onto Liberators, about a five week course.
CB: Were you expecting Liberators?
JA: No, when we saw that we were going to fly Liberators, we thought ‘they are American planes, why haven’t we got Lancasters?’, ‘cause we knew about Lancasters we thought they were marvellous, Liberators were unknown and didn’t even know that the RAF had Liberators and we thought they’re gonna send us to Japan because the Americans had Liberators so we were a little bit frightened of that, because we thought we should be helping defend Britain, we thought the war in Japan is an American affair and we shouldn’t be anything to do with that, but after we’d been shuttled around in Egypt to Palestine for a bit we went to Algiers by air, nine hours, and we thought we were on our way to Italy, when we got off the plane we saw a French flag and we said ‘what’s this place?’ and a French airman said ‘it’s Algeria’ or at least he said ‘it’s Maison Blanche’, we said ‘where’s that?’ he said ‘it’s Algeria, it’s North Africa’ and we said we’re supposed to be in Italy but there was nobody to ask, we could ask any questions and he said ‘you can go to a hotel here and sleep in huts in the grounds’, and then you should go to Algiers’s downtown about twenty miles and report to the RTO, transport officer, we went to see him the next day and he said ‘oh bomber crews, you’ll be here for ages, you’re low priority’, he said ‘only fighter pilots are priority one’ and our navigator said to me ‘we are priority one, I’ve read the documents’ but I said ‘shut up, it’s nice here’ so I said to him ‘the French people don’t seem very friendly’ and one of the gunners said ‘no wonder, we’ve just sunk the French fleet in Iran, so [slight laugh] after three weeks we said to the corporal in the RTO’s office, ‘I think you ought to have another look at our documents’ and he stood and talked on the telephone for a few minutes, kept us waiting because we were so insignificant, a low priority, then he looked at the documents and nearly had a fit, he said ‘you’re priority one, you should have left the same day’ he said, ‘you’ll be on a plane this afternoon’, so we fly to Italy in a freight plane with a load of boxes and an aircraft wheel that wasn’t properly strapped down, it kept shuffling around and nearly run us over, we were sitting on the floor and when we got to Italy, no customs, no immigration, nothing at all, nobody to tell us where to go or what to do, so we, first thing a service man does when he goes somewhere new is look for a tea and a bun [laughing] or what’s called a ‘shy and a wad’ and there was a little sort of canteen with Italian girls serving and they were laughing and joking, I expected Italians to be hostile like the French but they were so friendly, I thought we’re gonna like it in Italy and they kept saying ‘capiche, capiche’, and I said ‘no, no cabbage thank you, just tea and a bun’ and they said they were saying ‘do you understand?, capiche’ but we didn’t know that, but we thought they seemed nice [laughs] hope there are going to be some women where we’re going.
CB: Is this around about Naples was it?
JA: It was in Naples, and then we were transferred to Portici to a, to a holding centre, and there were people there who’d done a tour of operations and they were going on a rest period, and they were so dejected, haggard and ill looking, and they wouldn’t talk to anybody and we thought it must be terrible on a squadron, that it was demoralising to see them, anyway we stayed there a few weeks and then we were sent to Foggia by train, and you understood that Foggia is a big aircraft base, there were thousands and thousands of Americans there, with Liberators and Flying Fortresses, B24s and B17s, and we had liberators but other squadrons, some of them had clapped out wellingtons obsolete or obsolesce wellingtons so the liberators were a bit better except they weren’t new machines, they were machines that had been damaged and done a tour in the American Air Force and were now in a sort of scrap yard called a maintenance unit, and the pilots would go and ferry them to our squadron and if we were lucky we’d get the one in reasonable condition but most of them had got terrible faults, some of them had even got twisted airframes, and engine troubles common, and our fitters worked in the open air, there were no hangars, and sometimes they worked through the night in all weathers, and we were reliant on them to keep us alive.
CB: Now your crew, there was the seven of you as in a Lancaster but in this Liberator is that right?
JA: Yes, when I talk about how when I won the war I always say ‘I didn’t do it alone, there was seven of us’, and three of them were Scotsmen, one was from the Shetlands, and it took me a few, few days to learn to understand them on the intercom, because the intercom system is not very clear, it’s like a poor telephone system, and their Scottish accents were very guttural and I knew my life depends on these fellas, so I had to learn [slight laugh] to understand them and the skipper was very pleased when I joined the crew because up till then he was the youngest member, he was twenty-one and I was twenty and of course as I trained as a navigator and as an pupil pilot I was a useful member of the crew, and I’d done a gunnery course so I could do anything if anybody was killed or injured, I could take over from them, I couldn’t land a Liberator of course but I could keep it in the air long enough for the others to jump out and I said, I think I was bombing I think it was Budapest and the flak was so thick I thought we couldn’t get through it without being hit, and I looked over the side and it was like black velvet, the sky was so dark and I thought I’d jump out if I dared but I had no faith in my parachute and as I said to a Polish pilot I knew, he had parachuted safely and I said ‘ I think I’d jump out if I dared, but I’d be scared’ and he said ‘you wouldn’t hesitate if your arse was on fire’ and he was speaking from personal experience.
CB; So, you were with this very close-knit group, you were a good team, a good cohesive team?
JA: Yes, yes, you see when we arrived on the squadron nobody would talk to us because they couldn’t be bothered with new boys and when we became senior crew, we couldn’t be bothered to talk to new crews because on average they were only doing seven trips before they got shot down, and it was bad enough if our friends got shot down, but we didn’t care much about strangers being shot down so we didn’t really want to make any friends, because it would be traumatic when they died.
CB: And what were the conditions like at Foggia?
JA: The conditions were absolutely terrible, we were in a field, there were no gates, no fence, we were in a field with one solitary brick building, and that was the orderly room, the medical offices office and something the commanding officer used, he lived in a caravan, we lived in little four man tents, bivouac tents, you couldn’t stand up in them and we had no beds, we had to make our own beds out of bits of packing cases, and I had the side of a packing case with a strut across the middle, in the middle of my back, most uncomfortable, covered in cardboard, the mid-upper gunner, had a sheet of corrugated iron, I said ‘that’s why, that’s why he walks so funny’ [laugh]
CB: But you’d have the heat, you’d have the rain, it must have been terrible.
JA: It was, we’d have the side of the tents rolled up and the end flaps were open because the heat was so intense and we’d get a couple of hours sleep at night, but we couldn’t sleep more than a couple of hours so we’d get up and walk around, and when the sun came up it was unbearable and there was no shade anywhere, there was a place that we called the dining room and it was a roof on six poles with no sides and we sat on forms at trestle tables, and the cook, had an outside kitchen arrangement made out of oil drums, and the first thing I noticed was his black arms and white hands, he was twenty-one, he never wanted to be a cook, we called him Gladys because he was a nice boy.
CB: And was the food any better?
JA: The food was terrible, you see sometimes the food didn’t arrive, the food was brought to us by a lorry from somewhere distant each day, only enough for one day and after everybody had had a bit of it on the way there wasn’t much left for us, and there was hardly enough to keep us alive and sometimes the food didn’t arrive at all and we’d have nothing to eat for twenty-four hours and one day we said to Gladys our cook ‘ God for Christ’s sake Gladys, find something, there must be something left over’ and he scratched around and he found an onion, a raw onion each and a mug of tea, and that’s what we had and we had to do a nine hour flight, on an empty stomach and of course I smoked twenty cigarettes on every trip because it took away the hunger pangs, and then the medical officer discovered that the cook was using some sort of cans of meat and vegetable stew that had blown, and most of us got severe enteritis and people couldn’t control their bowels and there were no toilet facilities in the air, so people were doing it in their trousers, and sitting there on it for the rest of the trip, and some of the crews were yellow with jaundice, we didn’t know if it’s contagious or what caused it but we were living in what they called a malarias area, there were boards around the perimeter of the field we lived in, saying ‘caution, malarias area, malarias area, area’ and everyday a bowser arrived, a tanker of water but we couldn’t drink the water, it tasted of chlorine it was terribly strong, so we could only use it for washing ourselves and trying to wash clothes but we had no washing powder, we’d save little scraps of soap and put a shirt in a tub and leave it for three weeks to soak [slight laugh] and then rub it, and then rinse it and lie it in the sun, and in the hot sun it was dry in about an hour and we had nothing to eat except a mug of tea twice a day, and when we came back from operations we went to the debriefing tent, and there was a billy can full of lukewarm tea there and half a dozen mugs, they were never washed they were just recycled, we dipped them in the lukewarm tea, but if we were gone for more than five hours on a trip, we were given five boiled sweets which we promptly ate on the ground before we took off, and we were given a gallon of tea between seven of us, in a thermos jug, but that got cold, we’d saved it for the return trip and Jock the wireless operator used to bring the tea round for us cold, cold as ice, and about once a month we got what we called a tuppenny bar of chocolate but it was tropical chocolate and it never melted and in the air, I would put a piece of chocolate in my mouth and chew it and it became like gravel and then it became like dust and then I swallowed it but it never did melt, and one day some, some things arrived at the cook house, we thought they were bails of straw but they were dehydrated cabbage and that’s the worst thing you can have when you’re flying because our stomachs swelled up and we had to loosen our belts and our flying clothes because our stomachs were expanded enormously and we farted furiously throughout the trip.
CB: Did you have proper flying clothes in all this?
JA: We had flying clothing, we just recycled, the only ordinary clothing we had were ones left behind by casualties and of course lots of it was very old and our kit bags were still somewhere in Egypt or South Africa, following on about three months later and when I was in South Africa, I brought thirty oranges for a shilling, no for three pence, you couldn’t buy less because they were in a net, thirty for a ticky it was called, a threepnee bit [sic], and my kit bag wasn’t quite full so I put thirty oranges in there thinking the kit bag would come with me but it followed on three months later and the oranges were well ripe by that time [laughs] they were putrid, and we were allowed to wear civilian clothes in South Africa, provided we wore our service cap, we could buy bush shirts and nice clothing in the gents’ outfitters, so if we took our caps off we looked like civilians, and that was good quality stuff and when that eventually arrived in Italy we were very pleased because we’d been dressed like scarecrows up until then with all sorts, I had a brown battle dress, it wasn’t khaki it was brown, a sort of teddy bear material, I don’t know what air force or army that was from, maybe Greek or something, and it was a bit big for me so I could wear two battle dress blouses, two pairs of trousers, two shirts, two vests and three pullovers, because sometimes it was twenty below in the air and then I’d wear my flying suit, going to the toilet to urinate was a bit difficult because I had so many clothes on, I couldn’t stretch my penis long enough in the cold air to have a pee in the pee tube, which was on the side of the fuselage with a tube leading out of the aircraft but usually they were blocked up with cigarette ends [laughs]. The Americans had had ashtrays in their Liberators, they smoked in the air, smoked cigars in fact but the RAF took the ash trays out so of course we smoked in the air, nobody knew and I would smoke twenty cigarettes during a trip and now and again I’d feel like another cigarette but I’d already got one alight and then I’d think, ‘what did I do with the last cigarette end, did I stamp on it? did I drop it?’ and I’d switch a torch on which had a bit of brown paper over the glass, inside the glass because that was regulation and try and find the cigarette end on the floor somewhere and, once we took a fitter with us to another airfield and he nearly had a fit when he saw me light a cigarette because you are not allowed to smoke within so many yards of an aircraft but it was alright, it was, smoking was less of a hazard than the flak, we were carrying a ten thousand pounds of bombs and thousands of gallons of fuel, petrol and oil and pyrotechnics, photo flashes, incendiary bombs so –
CB: A cigarette was the least of your problems –
JA: A cigarette was minor.
CB: What did you make of the Liberator as a plane?
JA: Well when I flew it, because I could fly it when the automatic pilot backed and the skipper said to me ‘you can take over if you like’, it was like, it was like steering the Queen Mary, if you wanted to change course you had a wheel instead of a joystick and you’d turn the wheel and wait and nothing happens for a few seconds and then suddenly it moves, and if you don’t turn the wheel back quick enough its gone too far, so it’s too sluggish and, of course my instrument flying, I only took over at night, my instrument flying wasn’t good enough, most of my instrument flying was in the link trainer under the hood, and instrument flying was tedious and I could only stand about half an hour at a time, then I was glad when the skipper came back and took over, we were all sergeants, we liked that, because it was awkward sometimes when there was officers in the crew, in one crew the tail gunner was an officer well that seemed silly because a sergeant in that crew was a skipper and he was in charge in the air but he had to salute the tail gunner on the ground, well he should have done if they hadn’t abandoned saluting, but there was so many American officers because all of their bomb aimers or bombardiers were commissioned and the navigators and the pilots, so they always, when they talked to me they always addressed me as lieutenant because they thought I must be an officer being a bomb aimer, bombardier, and I would say ‘no we’re not one, we’re sergeants’, but you see we didn’t wear rank badges because we hadn’t got any, when we qualified at flying school, they didn’t give us any sergeant strips and when we got to the squadron nobody was wearing any rank and the commanding officer said ‘you should wear rank badges’, we said ‘we haven’t got any’ he said ‘chalk them on’, chalk them on, well that seemed so silly we didn’t bother, we said ‘we can get some from the Americans’ he said ‘you’re not allowed to wear those’, so we didn’t wear anything.
CB: Did you get on well with the Americans?
JA: Yes, oh yeah they were lovely fellows, we went to a, about twenty miles away to Foggia, was a ruined town, it had been bombed by the Germans, the Italians, the British and the Americans so there wasn’t much left of it, but there was a bath house where they had shower baths, and when we had a day off we’d hitch a ride on a lorry, lorries were conveying chalk from the quarries and we’d hitch a ride on the back of a lorry carrying limestone, and then we’d get very dusty on there, the drivers were all American Negroes and they’d say ‘where you going, down town Foggia?’ and we’d say ‘yes’, ‘get aboard’, so we’d climb up on the limestone and go to the bathhouse which was a small with half a dozen cubicles which were meant for one or two people but there were always four or six people pushing in trying to get wet, under the water, and we’d be sitting there waiting to go in with our towels and our soap, all naked, and soon as someone came out we’d push our way in and try and get some water, and after the war I was invited by the Hungarian government to go, go to a meeting in Budapest, they’d invited all available flyers of every air force that was active over Hungary during the war, well Hungary was allied with Germany and I’d bombed Hungary but the Hungarian air force was very kind to us, they took us flying, you know in their aeroplanes and there were five Americans standing there, there were only two of us they could find from England, but I said to one of the Americans ‘do you remember the shower baths in Foggia?’ he said ‘yeah I must have seen you there’ but he said ‘I didn’t recognise you there with your clothes on’[laughing].
CB: So let’s turn to your missions, your operations, what were you involved in while you were there on your long range bomber?
JA: Well we could put most eighty aircraft in the air, RAF, Liberators and Wellingtons but the Americans could put up six hundred, or nearly a thousand, they flew during the day, we flew to the same time at night and of course we had the same opposition say for sixty planes as they had when they flew six hundred so our casualties were much higher than Americans but I liked the Americans, we got on well with them, they had a camp in a field not far from us and we went to visit them once, to compare their facilities with ours and they had tents with wooden floors and wooden walls and they had stoves, we had nothing like that, we didn’t have running water, they did, they had electric light, we didn’t, they had decent food, we didn’t, they had flak jackets to protect them when they were flying, we didn’t, they had an ice cream plant for making ice cream and when the weather was very hot, they used to take the ice cream up to about fifteen thousand feet to freeze it and they had a cinema on their site, we didn’t, so we felt really rather ashamed of our conditions compared with theirs ‘cause they didn’t know how bad ours were –
CB: I’m surprised there wasn’t mutiny but I suppose –
JA: Well we had some desertions, we didn’t, we felt mutinous but we didn’t actually mutiny, and our attitude was we want to get this bloody war over and beat the Germans, and get home, but after forty operations we should have six months instructing or some other job and then come back and do another forty so not many people getting through the first forty and by the time we’d done twenty we knew we wouldn’t survive, we were the most senior crew on the squadron, we lost the flight commander and all the senior people off the squadron and when people much more experienced than us were failing to come back, we thought ‘we haven’t got much chance’, and so we reconciled ourselves to the fact that we will die but everybody’s got to die sooner or later and we thought ‘we are gonna die now instead of when we are ninety-nine’ so that cheered us up the fact that everybody has got to go sooner or later anyway but what did worry us, is the thought that we’d be severely wounded and blinded and badly burned, that sort of thing and having to live with that from the age of twenty for the rest of our lives, we didn’t like that, we had been stationed in Torquey as raw recruits, and there was a hospital there for burned air crews, air crews that had had their faces burned off and they were disgusting to look at, and horrifying, and we didn’t want that to happen to us, it was very demoralising and it was happening to other men, it never happened to us, you know, we couldn’t understand how we keep getting away with it, the plane was hit, engines were knocked out, we were landing on one wheel and two engines and all sorts of things like that, but none of us were hit yet and we went on to, the skipper had done one air experience trip, before we started operating, so he was one ahead of us he’d flown with another crew for experience, we didn’t like that ‘cause we thought ‘if he gets bumped off we’ll have a strange pilot’, and anyway we went on, watching other people dropping like flies until our, until my, my thirty-seventh trip, and I was bombing German troops in Serbia, they were evacuating from Greece and the Greek islands, back through Yugoslavia, back to the home land, to defend Germany, and we were stopping them, and no matter how much we bombed them they never really took to it and they hit me, filled me full of shrapnel.
CB: Before we get to that Jim, your first operation I believe were against oil plants in Bucharest, is that right?
JA: The first one was an oil refinery in Fiume, that was an Italian port which is now Rijeka which Fiume and Rijeka mean river, and it’s now Yugoslav, Croatia now, and I know that oil refinery well, and I know a woman who used to go to school across the bay when I was bombing that oil refinery and I thought what a terrible thing it was she lived nearby and when I went past on the bus sometimes after the war and I thought I could’ve killed her and I would’ve hated to kill her she was such a nice person and, after the war I knew a lot of Germans, the German airmen, pilots, ‘cause I speak fluent German and they always thought I was German, they used to say ‘but your father’s German?’, and ‘no, no he’s English’, well your mother is German ‘no no’, ‘well where did you learn English?’, I was the head of the German department of import export firm for years and I had to learn German at school anyway, and I had a private tutors for languages after the war and, I even spoke Italian during the war, fifteen years after the war I opened an office in Milan, and I put a man there who was a Venetian, rather posh Italian, superior you know, and I said ‘hey Franco, have you changed the language?’ and he said ‘why?’ I said ‘well during the war we used to speak differently’ and he said ‘no we haven’t changed anything’ well he said ‘after Mussolini, we didn’t call people voy we said lay’ and I said ‘no it’s not that’ I said, I only speak these days when I’m on my monthly trip to Italy, to supervise the office, I only speak to bus conductors and waiters and people like that but they speak differently to the way I spoke, so I started talking to him in Italian and he said ‘for God’s sake don’t talk to the directors of Fiat, what you speak is Neapolitan dialect’, well I didn’t know that and I thought well if it was good enough for the girls in Sorrento, it’ll have to be good enough for the rest of the Italians, he said ‘you speak like those little black fellas down in the south’, ‘cause you know there was snobbishness between the north and the south but I liked the southern Italians, they were all nice jolly people you know, I’ve even got some distant relatives that are Italian, my, my grandmother’s sister married an Italian during the first war when the Italians were on our side, and they settled in England and had a multitude of children and I knew them all.
CB: So the operations, some of which were in Ploiesti in Romania, and they had a fearful reputation.
JA: It was the most heavily defended target in the world.
CB: You were bombing these oil plants, especially the one at Ploiesti at night obviously?
JA: Yes, yes it had tremendous defences you know, because it was the oil that was vital, what really finished the war was lack of petrol, they got, they’d run out of fuel for the tanks and the aircraft so all the war we should have only really been concentrating on oil refineries, oil fields.
CB: So the operation in October to do gardening or mine laying as it was properly known, mine laying in the Danube of which you reported was the most frightening episode that you’d ever been.
JA: Well the first time that we dropped mines in the Danube, we’d been told they are secret and you must make sure you drop them in the main stream, the Germans must not get the secret of the mines, they lie dormant for three weeks and they don’t go off until the second ship passes over them, so they are virtually un-sweep able, the Germans used to fly over them with special aircraft with a big magnetic ring on it to try and explode them, they’d gun barges adrift to go over them and nothing, they couldn’t sweep them and, within a few months we’d stopped a hundred percent shipping on the Danube, which was conveying oil from Ploiesti back to the German forces, so it was a very important thing and the fighter defences were enormous, we’d seen planes shot down every few minutes and that was a bit frightening, I used to think ‘I hope there’s not somebody I know in it’, because a plane would fly along beside us for seconds, it seemed like ages, on fire, and slowly descend in a curve and explode on the ground, and we were told, ‘don’t be distracted by crashes’ but you can’t stop looking at them, wondering ‘whose that?’ and thinking ‘why don’t they get out, don’t see any parachutes’, what we didn’t know was that the Germans had upward firing guns, and they’d creep underneath the plane in the dark and fire into the belly of the plane and nobody would see them, so the gunners didn’t open fire and wondered ‘why didn’t the gunners open fire on that?’, nobody told us about it, this was the secret.
CB: No, they were doing this to Liberators? They were certainly doing it to Lancasters weren’t they, they were doing this to Liberators as well?
JA: Yeah and you see we had no ball turret underneath, the RAF took out that bull turret, we hadn’t got a gunner for it anyway and then we had a gun turret in the nose but they took all the guts out of that, to decrease the weight, so we had no guns in the front turret, we had no gun underneath that could’ve seen these upward firing guns and we didn’t carry a lot of ammunition, mining the Danube we would use all our ammunition, immediately I’d drop the bombs, I would rush back to the beam position where I’d got two machine guns, one on either side, there was no gunner for those so in the event of an attack I would use those or when we were mining the Danube, I’d drop the mines, rush back there and use those guns to strafe the shipping on the water or any insulations on the banks, the banks were two hundred feet high, and the Germans used to stretch cables from bank to bank so we had to fly below two hundred feet so we normally went to a hundred feet in the dark above the water, and then we thought we’d be safe, except there was flak barges with barrow balloons and we couldn’t see the cables from those because the barrage ruins were too high up above us and you can’t see a cable in the dark, we were going too fast anyway and, I remember one time there was a man on a barge firing at me with an automatic rifle and I gave him a quick skirt, squirt from the machine gun as I went by, I would’ve like to have met him after the war if you lived to discuss that, you know I didn’t mean it really you know, I’d say ‘I’ve got nothing against you personally’.
CB: But if you’re going to fire at me, I’m firing at you, what was your bomb load on something like this?
JA: Ten thousand pounds, you see we couldn’t carry a big bomb like the Lancaster because we’d got the cat walk going down the centre of the plane, so the bombs had to be hung in rows one above the other on either side of the cat walk, so the biggest bomb we could carry was a thousand pounds, so we carried ten of those, ten thousand pounds, which is plenty anyway and we’d carry pyrotechnics, lots of incendiaries as well.
CB: And what was your job if there was a hang up, and the bomb hadn’t been released?
JA: I had to go along the cat walk, in the dark, with no parachute, and no oxygen, and holding onto the railings in the roof and skidding about on the ten inch wide cat walk, with the, the slipstream would take away my weight so I had a job to keep on my feet and when I got to the bomb which was usually the one right to the back, I would stand on the cat walk with one leg and kick it and it would never fall off, so I had to swing then holding onto the hydraulic pipes, which were not meant to be swung from they are only about an inch diameter, I’d hold them with two hands, my wrists would go like jelly, you know, I’d swing and kick with both feet and when the bomb eventually fell off it was like my stomach went off with it, ‘cause there was always lights twinkling on the ground and thousands of feet below, and one slip and I’m off to the ground you know, seconds to live, that was terrifying. The only other terrifying thing was throwing grenades when I went on an infantry tactics course during training and, swinging propellers, on tiger moths, on a wet windy and muddy day, I thought I’ll swing in to the propeller and get my head cut off, but when I was in South Africa a chap did walk into a propeller, a navigator, and it threw his head over the hangar, so propellers were a danger, you couldn’t see them rotating, they were invisible.
CB: So now you were also involved in what was known as the Warsaw uprising or the support of that, that’s right isn’t it Jim?
JA: Yes but to go back to the mining of the Danube, the first time we mined the Danube, I said to the skipper ‘we’re too low, we’re much too low’ and he said ‘we’re at a hundred feet’ and I thought ‘we’re bloody not’, I could tell by the droplets of water we’re not at a hundred feet, when we got back to base the compass was, the radio compass was checked and we’d been at thirty feet in the dark, if we’d touched the water we’d have been gone, so that, it was terrifying yet there was no, there was no pay off, if you dropped the bombs you’d see the explosions and things, you’ve done something but you dropped mines that are not going to go off for three weeks or more then there’s no, the stress is there, there’s no release from the stress except machine gunning like mad, and then of course on the way back you would get attacked by fighters so then I was stay by the beam guns or as the Americans call them the waist guns, and that was quite exciting really firing those, but the reflector sides illuminated, were too bright, they were meant to be used during the day and I couldn’t see through them at night so I switched them off and I fired watching where the trace goes ‘cause every fifth bullet it was a tracer, so I fired a gun like squirting a hose, and they’d burn out about I don’t know whether it was six hundred yards but up to that time I could see where they were going, firing like watering the garden it was, with a hose pipe [laughing] anyway you were asking me about?
CB: Supporting the Warsaw uprising, dropping the supplies?
JA: Yeah, I’d bombed a place in Hungary, we were pretty tired, it was the second of two nights we’d been in the air, and we eventually got back in the tent to go to bed and within three hours a runner, a runner arrived from the orderly room and he said ‘you’ve got to report for briefing’, we’ve only been in the tent for three hours and we were told you’re going on a secret operation, fly down to Brindisi, we didn’t know what it was all about, and in Brindisi we went into a hut and there was a big map on the end wall and it showed a tape going from Brindisi to Warsaw, we thought well it’s nothing to do with us, the Poles are on our side we’re not going to bomb Warsaw, but then we were briefed and told we’re not going to bomb, we’re going to drop supplies of explosives and ammunition and guns for the underground resistance fighters who were fighting in the city against the Germans and, they were expecting the Russians to arrive any minute so on the 1st of August they’d started to fight, and they were doing well for a few days, and the Russians stopped their advance so the Poles were on their own so they appealed for help, apparently Winston Churchill was in Italy checking the arrangements for the south of France invasion which was imminent and he said, ‘we must help the Poles, we went to join the war on their account, we can’t stand idly by’, our air officer commander told us this later and, so he said we should go with the special duty squadrons, there was an Polish squadron and an RAF squadron dropping supplies but they’d lost so many men so they couldn’t continue so three liberator bomber squadrons were called in to do the supply dropping, they said ‘you must, you must drop from below six hundred feet and the poles said ‘two hundred, otherwise the parachute containers will drift away’ and they said ‘we’ve been there, it’s safer at a hundred feet because then the Germans can’t bring the guns to there because at a hundred feet you’ve come and gone quickly’, but they said ‘there’s one building still standing and that’s sixty meters high, so don’t fly into that in the middle of the night’, when we got to Warsaw, the whole city was on fire, gun fire and everything was burning and we’d been told a particular street and squares where we were to drop the supplies but nothing was recognisable so I remembered them saying, Zoliborz, a district of Warsaw is still in the hands of the insurgents, well that was a few days ago and I thought there doesn’t seem to be any fires, or no fighting going on as far as I could see, we fly around for fifty minutes and planes were getting shot down all around us and I’d eventually counting the bridges, I knew where Zoliborz was, I dropped the supplies there and I said to the wireless operator, ‘we must be bloody mad you know flying around fifty minutes’ and he said ‘well we’re not going all that way to drop them in the wrong bloody place’, I thought we’re all crazy, the psychiatrist reported that we were crazy, in their official reports, which I read after the war, ‘they must be crazy and they all think it won’t happen to them’, it’s insulting, we knew it was going to happen to us sooner or later, why shouldn’t it happen to us, it did happen to me in the end, fortunately it wasn’t quite fatal [laughing] .
CB: Glad to hear it, so that was your philosophy really to imagine that you had been killed already basically?
JA: Well we knew that we would die eventually anyway, so it’s like people ask you ‘when did you have your holidays?’, when you’ve had it, doesn’t matter if it was June or September, its gone, so doesn’t matter when you die really, if you’ve got to die anyway what’s the date matter, we had to tell ourselves that sort of thing, but we had superstitions, we had lots of superstitions, my friend Deakey (?) the navigator, he had a lucky shirt and he couldn’t fly without his lucky shirt and if it was dirty he had to wash and dry it quickly ready for flying that night, we only fly once without his lucky shirt and we got lost, and that was on the way back from Warsaw, we went twice to Warsaw and each night we lost thirty percent and by the third night we’d lost ninety percent, ninety, the air force pretended it was seventeen percent but everybody knows it was ninety percent and there are plenty of documents saying it was ninety percent and our air officer commanding Sir John Slessor wrote a book in which he [said] the time of the Warsaw uprising was the worst time of his career and he mentioned it was ninety percent but after the war, Stalin had to be appeased so we didn’t want to tell, didn’t want to emphasize anything we did that he didn’t agree with, ‘cause Stalin was anti-Poles and he’d stopped his army to allow the Germans to polish off Warsaw, and Hitler said eradicate Warsaw, it was to be razed to the ground and he gave an order ‘all inhabitants to be killed’ and the new German commander who wrote a book after the war, he said ‘you don’t mean women and children?’ and he was told ‘yes’ [emphasis], the whole population is to be killed, that’s what was going on when we were flying over there, and we were told ‘if you get shot down near the Russian lines, they will shoot you, especially if you are dressed in blue’, well of course we were dressed in blue we were in the Air Force, so it was a bit late to tell us that now and, while we were flying to Warsaw we were being shot at by the Russians and the Germans because they didn’t agree with us helping the Poles, the Poles got a medal, the Germans got a special badge, the Russians got a medal, I’ve got one of them as a souvenir, and we got nothing, we got no recognition.
CB: Andy your pilot comes over as very calm.
JA: Yes, he was very determined, he was very stubborn and of course he was the skipper, he was in charge but I always felt that I was in charge you see and when we were lost on the way back from Warsaw, Deakey the navigator called me up and said ‘Jimmy can I have a word with you’, well I thought there’s something wrong and I just asked him a little while ago, ‘do you want a pinpoint?’ ‘cause I would navigate by map reading all the way there and back you see, but I hadn’t bothered because he, I said ‘do you want a pinpoint?’ and he said ‘no, no I’m alright’ now he says ‘can I have a word with you?’, so I scrambled up the front to the nose compartment and the tears were dripping off his chin and he said ‘I don’t know what country we’re over’, I said ‘give me the typographical maps, I’m shit hot at map reading, I could tell you in a few seconds where you are’ and I said ‘we’ve got no maps for this place whatever it is’, when we should be over the sea, we’re over land and when we should be over land we were over the sea of course we were over the Greek islands, they’re all messy you know, the little bits and we’ve got no map for that place and I didn’t know until after the way why we hadn’t got a map, the reason was he’d got diarrhoea and he’d used the map because there wasn’t any toilet in plane, and he wrapped it up and chucked it out down the flare shoot, that’s where the map was the Germans had got it, bit messy, and the plane had been on fire, the wireless operator had the wireless set in pieces and he was in his element putting it together, you know mending it, he was busy and I, went up the front to have a chat to the skipper with Andy, and I said to the flight engineer, he pushed past me to look at the fuel gauges, they were like a gauge on an oil tank, like a domestic oil tank, visual gauge with a bubble in tubes, I said ‘how we’re doing?’ he said ‘empty’, I said ‘we can’t be empty we’re still flying’ he said ‘yeah but I don’t know how long for’, we’re flying over aerodromes with German planes with black crosses on, they’re freight planes but we daren’t try and land there otherwise the you know the ground defences open up on us, so I said to Andy ‘we’re heading to the mountains’ and I said to him ‘land on this road’ I said ‘these strong, straight roads’ I said ‘we’re just flying over one now, look you can land here, that’s what I would do if I were you’ and he said ‘I think we’ll press on’, I thought ‘you’re mad, press on, [emphasis] we’re flying into the mountains and we’re out of fuel, and in any minute all the engines are going to cut out’, anyway he was right and we did press on and we got eventually over the sea and the radio operator had got the wireless together again and he always used to stand up and point when he was listening on the radio and he started waving his arms about and pointing and he said its Brindisi and we were facing the runway, we running up to Brindisi and we went straight in, if there had been anybody in the way we couldn’t have done round the circuit because when we got to the end of the runway the, all engines cut out, out of fuel, so we told the duty pilot where we were and that we were out of fuel, so they put some fuel in and flew back to Amendola near Foggia, of course we’d been gone so long we couldn’t still be in the air, our trip was eleven hours and forty minutes plus over an hour going to Brindisi over an hour coming back so we were so tired, I’d already dropped off to sleep for the last half an hour and when the plane landed I was still asleep and the ground crew got in and stirred me with a foot to wake me up, I was just dead tired, I’d been in the air longer than I’d been on the ground for about three days and no sleep at all you know (tired, hungry?) yeah but we were always hungry.
CB: And then you’d have to have the debriefing?
JA: Yes, that didn’t take long because we were always a bit impatient at debriefing, we’d answer questions, we didn’t volunteer any information and always something had gone wrong with the plane, like the guns didn’t fire, the oxygen cylinders were empty, all sorts of things, one engine cut out, two engines cut out and the ground crew would run out to us soon as we landed and they’d shout ‘any snags, any snags?’ and we’d swear and shout and say ‘this went wrong and that went wrong’ using lots of ‘f’ words but then we’d never report the snags, because we relied on those lads and it wasn’t their fault, the planes were clapped out anyway and they’d work through the night perhaps maintenance and they couldn’t get spares and some of the things they did were, were fatal, and they couldn’t help it, one of them said to me, ‘I don’t get very close to the air crews, I don’t make friends with them because’ he said ‘if a plane goes missing I’d wonder if I did something wrong or whether I’d forgot to do something’ and he said ‘I’ve been on a squadron a long time and lots of planes have gone missing and I always feel it might be my fault’ so he said ‘I don’t like to get friendly with air crews’, I can understand that, when I used to go to the, we weren’t allowed to take anything with us like a bus ticket or money or anything like that, and so I had a little wallet and I used to hand it to the sergeant fitter, ground crew fitter and I’d say ‘take that Jake and if I don’t come back you can keep it’, and he’d take it but he didn’t like touching it really and when I got back he’d shove it at me as soon as he could ‘cause he didn’t want anything to do with dead men’s property and I can understand that you know, he was squeamish and when I got wounded he was the chap who lifted me up and carried me out of the plane.
CB: So what happened on that your final operation obviously, what was it the thirty-seventh out of forty?
JA: Yes
CB: And what happened Jim?
JA: When we were told the target would be undefended, and for the first time ever you can bomb anywhere in the town, it’s just full of Germans, so I dropped a stick of bombs at predetermined intervals, and I hit about two or three blocks of flats right in the middle, the next one between two blocks of flats, the next one a road and rail junction, and then I said to the skipper, ‘hold this course for half a minute because we’re going into mountains now’, and we were low you see because the visibility you had to come down very low, ‘cause of the cloud, and just as I said that the tail gunner said ‘it’s flak, it’s stern’ and WOOF [emphasis to express being hit], and it’s a sensation like if you’re playing football and the football is wet and heavy and somebody kicks it and it hits you straight in the face, it’s a numb sensation at first and then comes the pain, well this was like a puff of wind, like being hit with something but no pain what so ever and then floods of blood, I seemed to be bleeding to death, and I felt for my parachute pack because I thought we were getting shot down but I was the only one hit actually, we were hit in one engine and me and the navigator wrote in his diary; ‘Jim’s eyeball is hanging out on his cheek’ [laughs] actually it wasn’t, I’d got a lump of Perspex because all the Perspex had become shrapnel, and there was a piece about four inches long stuck in my eyeball and of course all the blood was running down my face because I was hit in the head and the face and everywhere and the blood running down this Perspex made it look as though my eye was hanging out you see so he couldn’t look at me, so he tapped me on the head and I could see he was talking, we had throat microphones, American throat microphones, it were very efficient and he was telling the crew I’d been hit, I crawled under the flight deck and when I stood up in the well, the back of the flight deck, the wireless operator had got all the first aid kits open and he wanted to put one on my face but he was hesitant to do it and I thought ‘do it, do it’, but of course there was this four inch long piece of shrapnel stuck in my eye, and it wasn’t until it fell out that he could put bandages on and then he bandaged everything that was bloody including my right arm which was badly damaged and my left arm which I’d used to investigate my other wounds and that wasn’t damaged but it was very bloody so he bandaged that as well, he bandaged everything and then he said ‘I’ll give you a shot of morphine’, I said ‘I’m not in pain’, I had no pain what so ever and that frightened me because I thought, if you get your legs chopped off you don’t feel any pain, because the body reacts as though you get shock but you don’t feel pain and I thought I’m dying, I must be dying and I said ‘I’m not in any pain I don’t need morphine’ and he got some out the first aid thing and I’d got my eyes shut and he stuck the thing in my arm and the morphine came like a marble, raised up, it didn’t disperse and when we landed he said to the ground crew ‘I’ve tied a label on him saying I gave him morphine at twelve o’clock, but I know now that I shouldn’t do that because he’s got a head wound’ and ‘oh Christ he’s killed me instead of the Germans’ [laughing].
But anyway, all we did all the time was sing and tell jokes, and it was like a rugby club –
CB: In the military hospital?
JA: No on the squadron, we weren’t morose and we weren’t miserable, in fact everything was hilarious and because we had to keep flying it didn’t matter what we did, hooliganism didn’t matter, drunkenness, it didn’t matter, because we were either up in the air or we had a group stand down when we’d have two of three days off due to so many casualties, waiting for new crews and new aeroplanes, and we’d get drunk and forget everything you see, and if, if unexpectedly we had to fly after a night a free night in the mess and drunkenness, we’d have a headache like you’ve never experienced and I went to the medical officers little cubby hole and there was a youth leaning up the doorpost and I pushed past him and I was opening boxes and things looking for an aspirin and I said to this fella, ‘do you know where they keep the aspirins?’ and he said ‘yeah’ and he told me and I said ‘you know your way around?’ and he said ‘yeah I’m the medical officer’ [laughs]
CB: So you found yourself in this hospital?
JA: Yeah when, after we landed, I was put on a stretcher, propped up in a sitting position on some blankets, some blankets behind me and it seemed to take ages and the flight engineer said ‘what’s the bloody delay? Get him to hospital’ and they said ‘we’re checking the first aid kits’ which all had been opened and used and they said ‘there’s a pair of scissors missing’ and that’s why they were delaying and he said ‘if you don’t get him to hospital right away I’m gonna bloody do the lot of ya’, and he was a tough Shetlander and that made them pull their socks up, and they put me in the ambulance to go seven miles, no twenty miles into Foggia to the general hospital, military hospital, and the skipper said ‘I’ll come with you’, well he shouldn’t have, he should’ve gone back to be debriefed but I was glad he came with me, ‘cause I didn’t know what I looked like, I didn’t know if my ear had been chopped off or whether I’d got a complete nose ‘cause I knew a piece of shrapnel had creased the top of my nose and the bottom, I didn’t know how bad things were and he said I can show you and he and he got a little stainless steel or chrome mirror in his pocket and he showed me but that’s very distorting and I thought ‘bloody hell look at that’, and I heard the nurses talking and they were talking as though I was already dead and one of them said ‘he must have been a good looking boy’, he must have been? [emphasis] I’m still here, you know, and they stripped me, cut all me clothes off and I felt a bit embarrassed because I’d borrowed a pair of long johns from the tail gunner and I was stripped down to my long johns and I felt that was a bit embarrassing because long johns were a bit silly aren’t they, and then the skipper went back then but he had to hitch hike back and he was in his flying kit you know, and when he got back he got a bollock-ing ‘cause he should have gone straight back not gone to the hospital with me, and anyway he got over that and they decided as he’d done one more trip than me anyway and they couldn’t manage without me and they hadn’t got anyone to replace me, the crew could stop now and go for a rest period, and after a few days they did go, and so there I was in hospital four and a half hours, and a chap from the squadron had sprained his wrist or something and he called at the hospital, to see the medical officer at the hospital and he said, the medical officer said ‘we’ve got a chap from your squadron in here’ and he said ‘oh I’d like to go and see him’ and he said ‘no you better not he’s just recovering from four and a half hours on the operating table so you won’t be able to talk to him yet’, and I came round and it was evening but I couldn’t see and I was bound up like an invisible man, just all bandages and I could see a white apparition by the bed and I thought ‘I’m alive’, surprisingly and I muttered, [clears throat] ‘could you tell me if they’ve taken my ear off?’ and this thing said ‘what are you here for?’, and I said ‘I’ve been wounded’, and she said ‘well you’re have to wait until the day staff comes on, I don’t know anything about you’ so I had to wait the rest of the night to find out whether I’d got a nose and whether I had only got one ear and that worried my because in the day of short haircuts I thought I’d look a fool with only one ear [slight laugh] isn’t that silly and, of course I was blind in one eye and the, every hour they dropped penicillin in my eye, it was icy cold, they said ‘you’re lucky, you’re being treated with this new penicillin, new’, I’d never even heard of it and I said ‘can you warm it up, it’s cold’ they said ‘we keep it in the refrigerator’ [slight laugh], anyway, after a few days I was totally blind because my left, my left eye had been alright, well reasonable but then I was totally blind in both eyes and I heard them muttering about cross infection in the ward and I had to lie flat on my back for a month, thirty days I wasn’t allowed to sit up or move due to the eye treatment, they said ‘we’ve healed eyes before but usually they get an infection in the end and we have to remove them’ and I thought well if I can’t see with it it doesn’t matter, I might look alright with an eye patch, a talking point and they transferred me to another ward, they lifted me up flat, put me on a stretcher, wheeled me away, and all the others in the ward had thought I’d died and I said well nobody talked to me anyway, they said, ‘well when your eyes were bound up we didn’t know whether you were awake or asleep’, well I didn’t know what time it was or what date it was or anything and I used to doze off and come back to consciousness again all the time and I never knew whether it was morning or afternoon or evening and I used to listen to what was going on, are these night time sounds or day time sounds, very difficult to tell. Anyway I then after a while when I’d recovered a bit I had more operations on my eye under local anaesthetic, terribly painful, they picked out bits of steel, bits of Perspex and a piece of wood and the chap said to me, ‘what wood was there in the air craft?’ I said ‘well it was made of aluminium’ he said ‘well you’ve got a piece of wood in your eye, a tiny piece’, then I remembered, there was an air blower near the bomb airmen’s position and it would blow in my face so I used to put map over it and stand the astro compass box up against it and it was made of wood and of course that had been shattered and a piece of wood obviously went in my eye, and when they cut my clothes off in the hospital I’d got three pullovers on, lots of clothes you know, multiples of everything and two of the pullovers were air force issue but one I’d brought at Marks and Spencer’s before I joined up and I thought ‘steady on that’s my pullover they cut in half’ you know and that watch that got took off I brought that you know, got no compensation, but anyway it was terrible in the hospital because nobody had any time for me, I don’t know whether they were opposed to the bomber offensive or what it was.
CB: So what nationality were they, the nursing staff?
JA: British, in that hospital they were British, in a second hospital they had Italian nurses that was a bit better but the British nurses were quite cruel really and, except for one, she used to be on night duty and she’d come and sit on the bed and talk to me at night and bring me a cup of tea, I think she fancied me [laughing] and anyway when I could stand up, because I felt very dizzy, it was very difficult to stand up after being about six weeks in bed and I’d only got blood stained clothes on, ‘cause one battle dress was though the rats had eaten it, it just fell open, as I’d got more than one battle dress on, one of them weren’t too bad and, but it was all blood stained and my flying boots were all caped with blood and I felt stupid you know I wanted to have proper clothes, and I felt very truculent and resentful, and the nurse came round and she said ‘lie to attention’ [emphasis] and I said ‘what does that mean?’, she said ‘both arms above the sheets down by your sides, feet together, head straight’, [coughs] I said ‘I can’t do it’, can we wait a minute [pauses] and then got it up gradually from twenty to eighty percent.
CB: So you’re still in the hospital, how long were you in the hospital?
JA: Three months and I was transferred then to a place called Torre del Greco to another hospital, and we’d got Italian nurses there, very pretty, black hair and uniforms, white dresses with a red cross on their chest and their English was a bit faulty and they’d come round every day and ask me ‘lavatory?’ [puts on an accent] and I’d say ‘what’s that?’, ‘lavatory?’ [in accent again], that’s all they could say and I’d say ‘I don’t understand’, and then they’d write something down and go away and I was there for a month and then I was discharged and told you’re on twenty four hour stand by to go back to England wounded, never happened, after a few weeks, they put red crosses on my kit bags and loaded them on board a ship, I had a two week visit, sorry a two week voyage back to England through the, past Gibraltar, through the Bay of Biscay, submarine alert all the time, no beds no chairs and I sat on a form leaning on a table for two weeks.
CB: Still of course not a hundred percent?
JA: No I was ill, very ill and every now and then submarine alert and I’d got to scramble up on deck in a life vest and over coat and have to stand there in the drizzle and rain until the submarine alert was over, and I wasn’t treated as an invalid at all, I was just with the other troops, nobody had a bed, nobody had a chair, if some of them if they were lucky they could climb on the table and sleep on the table but I couldn’t get on the table so I had to sit on the form and lean forward on the table all night, and we put into Liverpool and we spent twenty four hours in the docks while the customs went thoroughly through the ship examining everything, I thought some people have been abroad for several years, what the hell are they looking for? and we’re all British anyway, and then I got off the boat and I had to carry two kit bags with the red crosses on, all to the station put them on the train unaided, I thought ‘what they hell are the red crosses for?’, and I reported to the Air Ministry with me two kit bags and they said ‘you’ve been sent back because they haven’t got the right facilities for treating you in Italy’, so I expected to go back into hospital again but they gave me five weeks leave, didn’t give me any money, they didn’t ask me where will you go on your five weeks leave but they said ‘every week report here again’, well my, fortunately my father was at an Air Ministry unit at Harrow and my parents lived in Hillingdon on the outskirts of London, so I could live with them, the morning after I arrived there, in my funny garb of odds and sods and I hadn’t got a proper uniform, I heard the first time of Doodlebug what we called pilotless planes (B1) I had heard about them, didn’t realise they were so noisy, I knew when the motor cut out they’d come down and one came over and the motor stopped and I said to my mother ‘what do you do?’ she said ‘don’t do anything’ and she went outside to peg some washing on the line and it just dropped at Greenford, which was not very far away from [pauses] not very far away from where we were living and then the rockets came and they were terrifying, the V2s, the rockets, because you’d hear terrible explosion and then hear them coming and in the newspapers and on the radio it was saying ‘gas mains exploding all over London’, well that was a lie, my father knew what they were and he was told ‘don’t evacuate your family as it will cause panic’ so he had to stay there, couldn’t tell his family the danger, it was quite silly during the war because when the Germans bombed a town we weren’t allowed to know which town it was, on the radio it would say ‘bombs were dropped at random’ and we thought ‘Random must be totally destroyed by now because its bombed every night’ [laughs], anyway my father said ‘haven’t you got a proper uniform’, I’d got this brown battle dress which I wore with a blue shirt and a black tie and a hat that had collapsed with a badge I had brought in a bazaar in Egypt which wasn’t a regulation badge, an air force badge it was sort of a souvenir thing bought in a bazaar ‘cause someone had stolen my badge and, he sized me up and brought me a tunic anyway but I was wearing a flying badge and strips on this brown thing and I was hoping people would ask me ‘what the hell are you?’ but nobody ever asked and I was passing military policemen, they should have said ‘excuse me, what air force are you in?’, nobody ever asked because there was so many foreigners in London of different armies and air forces that everybody looked different, anyway I realised I wasn’t, on my weekly visits to the Air Ministry, I wasn’t seen by what I would call proper doctors, I was seeing men in white coats, now psychiatry was in this infantry or psycho analysis and we were prime subjects for it because we were all bloody crackers, you see, so they asked me all sorts of questions, not about my injuries, no medical treatment but things like ‘do you like girls? What sort of girls do you like? Do you dream? What do you dream about?’ so I made things up, course the chap was writing things all down in long hand, ‘what sort of girls do you like?’ I said ‘girls with red hair’, well I had only known one girl with red hair, I nearly said to him girls who do or girls who say yes [laughing] but ‘what do you dream about’ so I made it up a dream and told him and it would amuse me to see him scribbling it all down, no medical treatment what so ever then I got a telegram, report to Innsworth, and I said to my father who’d worked his way up you see from being a corporal in the first world war to being a squadron leader, acting wing commander and he knew all the ropes, I said to him ‘god I could do with a few more days leave’ and he said ‘well send them a telegram’, I said what will I say?’ he said ‘wedding’, so I thought telegram style is quite ambiguous you see, and instead of saying ‘I request extension of leave for my wedding’ I just said ‘for wedding’, so it could be anybody’s wedding, they said forty eight hours granted and report to Manby in Lincolnshire, well I still hadn’t got proper uniform and everything, just one tunic my father had given me, this funny cap and other odd things you know, and I had to buy everything I needed to make it up, you should have three of everything, three pairs of trousers, three tunics etc. I had to buy it from the stores and a 664B which it the payment on clothing on repayment form, I can remember even the name of the form, form 664B, and I had it stopped out of my pay, so I was looking for a job, nobody knew what I was there for, there were people on a course, officers training courses and I said, they said ‘are you an instructor’ I said ‘I don’t know, can I look at your books?’ they showed me the books and I said ‘no I don’t know any of this stuff, it’s all up to date, you know I don’t know it so I can’t be an instructor’, ‘are you a pupil?’ I said ‘no I’m off flying so I can’t be a pupil’, I got pally with the armourist officer and I said ‘I’m sick of just hanging about, three weeks and nothing to do and have you got anything I can do?’ and he said ‘well we need someone to take charge of the low level bombing range but it’s night work’, I said ‘well I’ve got nothing to do during the day or during the night so I might as well be working at night, sleeping in the day’, so he gave me a squad of blokes and WAAFs and I was in charge of bombing range so after another three or four weeks he said ‘guess what, your documents have come through and you are attached to my section anyway, what would you like to do?’, I said ‘well what is there?’, he gave me two or three options and said ‘there’s a detachment on the coast with three bombing ranges, have a ride out there on the ration lorry, see if you like it, you can take charge of one of the ranges’, so I thought well anything to get away from the real air force, get away on a detachment.
CB: Your eyes were alright now were they?
JA: No, no I still couldn’t see out of my right eye, but they said, they introduced peace time regulations and things you see after the war had ended, and they said annual musketry, everybody must attend so I went to the rifle range and I fired off so many rounds and I didn’t get any bullets on the target at all, so they said ‘something must be wrong there, will you do it again?’, well I couldn’t see the target never mind hit it, and I was trying to use my left eye with the rifle on the right side you see and that’s impossible, anyway I was in charge of the bombing range for a year or two and I was sent for by the commanding officer, he was an air commodore and he said ‘air crews are allowed to take trade training’, and I said ‘well I don’t need any because I’ll be demobbed in about six months, demobilised, don’t need any trade training’, I said ‘what is there anyway?’, he said you’re only allowed to take group one or group two trades and I said ‘what are the group one’s and group two’s?’ he said ‘there aren’t any’, I said ‘well what is there then?’ he said ‘well if don’t volunteer for one of these I’ll damn well send you on one’ he said ‘there’s plenty of openings for cooks’, I said ‘oh I’d like to be a cook’, I thought you’re in the warm and you can get plenty to eat if you’re in the cook house, I said ‘I’d like to train as a cook’ and he was furious, he said ‘that’s a group five trade, you’re not allowed to take a low trade’ well I thought well it’d be nice you know in the winter in the cook house [laughing] so he said ‘I’m sending you on a photographic course’, so all the other people, I was in charge of the course of twenty five men because I was a senior man, and the others were people who had joined up to fly but before they could start training the war had finished so they got to go onto ground jobs, and the ones on the course were amateur photographers and they knew everything, well all I knew was you point a camera and press the thing and you send it off to Boots, and when it comes back it’s prints and how they do it I don’t care, but now I had to learn all about it, take photographs of things moving and you know all sorts, people walking, cycling, aeroplanes taking off and all that, I learned quite a bit actually and then I was transferred to Benson, near Oxford and I was put in charge of the photographic section, well I was the most naive photographer in the world because I wasn’t even interested, but I was put in charge and they were doing an air survey of the United Kingdom and Scandinavia, and doing hundreds of feet of film and it was all going through machines and it was all automatic, well I’d never seen such machinery and the photographic officer was always sliding off somewhere and he’d put me in charge and disappear and when he came back he’d say ‘hundreds of yards of film have been ruined’ and ‘how did that happen?’ and he said ‘you didn’t make them clean the film’ well I didn’t know they had to clean the film [slight laugh], so it wasn’t too bad because there was a lot of women there, WAAFs, they were quite jolly and I used to open the section at nine o’clock in the morning and they’d say ‘right we’re go off to breakfast now’ and we’d go down by the river, the Thames and have bacon and eggs and stroll back when we felt like it, and I hadn’t got the faintest idea, some of the people knew what they were doing and some didn’t you see, I didn’t know at all [laughs], so eventually I was demobilised from there and it took place at Uxbridge and I was given a chalk striped suit, like Max Miller I felt, and a hat, I’d never worn a trilby hat and we looked in mirrors in our civilian clothes and laughed like hell because we’d never worn anything like that before and when we come out the demobilisation centre there were chaps hanging around offering you two quid for the box of clothing, I offered them the hat, they didn’t want that, they wanted coats and trousers, ‘cause clothing was rationed you see, and the thing I would have really like to keep was an over coat because they had good overcoats in the air force and I hadn’t worn an overcoat you see, so I went to a market and they were selling second hand clothes which weren’t rationed and I brought a sailor’s overcoat [laughs].
CB: Did you keep in touch with your crew after the war?
JA: Up until the time they died, yes, except the one from the Shetlands who emigrated to New Zealand so we lost touch with him, but the rest of us stayed in touch until they all died, one at a time, not all together but they got heart attacks and cancer and things and I think that was through the stress they had during the war.
CB: You became a very successful international businessman after the war.
JA: I did, yes, I devoted all my time to educating myself, I attended a technical school, it was a commercial and technical school, they had commercial boys who did short hand typing and book keeping and technical boys, I was one, we did metal work and wood work and higher mathematics’ and science, advance subjects you know, we didn’t do the nice subjects like art anymore and scripture and things you know, easy subjects, we didn’t do that.
CB: There is one point I wanted to ask you, you were awarded the DFM, the Distinguished Flying Medal –
JA: Yes.
CB: Did you accept it?
JA: No I didn’t, I got a message, chaps used to come into town, my old friends who’d trained with me and were still on the squadron and they’d come in they said, one of them said, ‘see you got a gong then?’ and I said ‘I don’t know anything about it’, he said it was on DROs, daily routine orders, I did know about it because an officer appeared one day in the hospital and he sat on the bed next to me and I couldn’t see him, I couldn’t recognise him properly, because my eyes were badly affected and he said, in a very pompous way he said, ‘I have honour to inform you, that you have been awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal’ and it was as though I could hear a radio on in the background, it didn’t sound like me at all, and I heard myself saying ‘tell them to stick it up their arse, I don’t want a bloody medal, I want some clothes, I want a shirt and a tunic, and some trousers, I want some shoes’, because they hadn’t provided me with anything and another thing that upset me was a bitch had had puppies on the squadron, in the tent lines, and I’d got one of these puppies and that was the only thing I’d got in the world, I’d got the rest of the crew but I didn’t own them and the only thing I owned was this little Italian dog, he was a kind of Labrador and I used to save a bit on my plate from dinner or breakfast and bring it back for him, put it on the ground and he’d lick the plate clean, and the next morning I’d go to breakfast, forget to wash the plate and I’d remember later ‘oh god I forgot to wash the plate’, because it was always so clean, you see he’d licked it clean, and the lads came to the hospital and they said ‘the CO’s had all the dogs shot’, ‘what, why’d he do that, shot all the dogs?’, ‘cause they were good for morale those dogs and I used to look forward to my little dog you know when I came back from my trips, it might be the last day of my life, and he shot it, and that’s why I didn’t take the DFM, why I told them to stick it up their arse, now years after the war when I moved to Lincolnshire from London, where I live now, I was in Lincoln when I met somebody who turned out to be a flight commander from the squadron, and he was not the same flight I was in, we had A flight and B flight, he was the other flight and he said, I didn’t know him on the squadron ‘cause he came after I’d you know done most of my trips, he was the new boy, and he said ‘do you know the CO is still alive, he lives in Norfolk’ I said ‘no, I didn’t know that’ he said ‘I’ll give you his details, his telephone number and address’, so I phoned him and I said ‘I’d like to come and check a few things with you ‘cause I’m writing a manuscript for a book and the sort of things I’ve heard, I heard that you were a group captain dropped down to wing commander because you wanted what the Americans called some combat time, we thought you must be bloody potty,’ because he was non-compassionate at that time you see, I said ‘there’s certain things I’d like to check with you whether it’s true or not’, I went to see him, I said you never talked to us on the squadron because we were sergeants, he said ‘well I couldn’t because you were so much more experienced than me’ he said ‘I kept a low profile’ and I said ‘well you won’t remember me but I’ll tell you something now and it’ll remind you who I am’ and I told him about the DFM and where it should be stuck and he was flabbergasted, I had come back from dead you know to haunt him and he’d got a couple of dogs there you know, young two dogs, and how would he feel now if I shot his dogs –
CB: Did you mention that to him?
JA: I didn’t no, I just told him I was so embittered and outraged that I didn’t want the bloody medal but of course it was a mistake, looking at the Antiques Roadshow one day, I saw a few ordinary medals being auctioned and a DFM, and the DFM made about six thousand pounds or something put together with the other medals and I said to my wife what a fool I was I should’ve taken it, but it was involuntary you know when I said it, it was as though I wasn’t speaking, I was listening to somebody saying it, and I was in a bad way of course, I’d got no short term memory, for many months, I didn’t dare tell anybody because I wanted to get back on to flying you see, I thought you can fly with one eye, I’m not interested in anything else only flying, they wouldn’t have it, and [pauses] I was eventually, I was on this photographic course and coming out of a darkroom into the sunlight I couldn’t see I was blinded, my eyes are streaming, so I was sent to an army doctor in Aldershot, and he said to me ‘you’re up to British army standards’ and I said ‘maybe I am because you’re calling up people with one eye now’, they were towards the end of the war they called up people to serve with one eye. And I went back to my unit, one day I was called for by the medical officer and he said ‘you should have had a medical board last year’, I said ‘I did have one’ and he said ‘why do you say that? Nothing in your records about it’, I said ‘I went to Watchfield and I had a railway warrant for myself and a party of airmen and I was in charge, ‘and what do alleged happened?’, I said ‘well the medical officer who gave me a board he said ‘what’s your condition?’ and I said ‘about the same’ and he said ‘right we’ll leave it at that then, same’ and he said ‘I can’t understand you saying that’, and I said, he was flicking over pages in a file, I said, the pages are numbered, I said to him ‘there’s one page missing’ he said ‘it’s nothing to do with you’, I said ‘well it’s my records it’s something to do with me, that’s the page that gives you know, details of my last medical board’, he said ‘I’m a squadron leader, I’m competent to conduct medical boards, you are A1’, and I thought I can’t be A1, what’s their game, I thought, well they don’t want to pay me a pension for not being A1, so nothing I can do about it, I left the Air Force and I signed on with a panel doctor just before the National Health Service came into being, and he said I’ll just check you over while you’re here and he said ‘good God man you’re in a terrible state, what the hell has happened to you?’ I said ‘I was wounded when I was flying in the Air Force’, he said ‘well you should get a pension’ and I said ‘I can’t get a pension, I’m A1’ [laughs] he said ‘the bastards’ he said, ‘they shouldn’t be allowed to get away with it’, he said ‘I’ll get some British Legion forms and fill them in for you, you sign it and send them off’, so that happened, I took a day off, I thought this is a waste of time and they said ‘yes you are due for compensation’, gave me nine shillings a week, nine shillings, I didn’t need nine shillings anyway within two years I was an armour men’s designer working for the Ministry of Defence and from there I progressed upwards until I was managing director or chairman of three companies at the same time and I was making an awful lot of money.
CB: How do you look back at your time in the RAF? is it with –
JA: With disgust, you see when I was a child, daddy was in the Air Force, all his friends were in the Air Force, they were my heroes, we were, Douglas Bader was stationed on there and he used to come to my father’s house and I saw Lord Trenchard, he was going by in his car on the aerodrome and people who became very famous later and I admired them, they were all my heroes, Amy Johnson and Jim Mollison, all those people you know, civilian pilots, I didn’t know any other life so naturally I joined the Royal Air Force and when we were living at Cranwell, that time 1929 and then again just before the war, the Royal Air Force was known as the world’s finest flying club, it wasn’t very big, only about thirty thousand men in the RAF, they would join with no rank and they’d go out in seven years with no rank, there was no promotion, you see there’s no expansion until late 1930’s and everybody seemed to know everybody, my father knew every commanding officer throughout the world, and he was well known, when I was in the RAF people remembered him you know and they’d look at my name and they’d say ‘have you got any relations in the service?’, and my brother was in the RAF and he said ‘I always say no, ‘cause we don’t want to let the old man down’, ‘cause he was a bit of a scallywag, and anyway, I used to forget to draw my pension of nine shillings a week, forty five pence nowadays and it would go on for about three months and I had to write away for it, and I let things slide ‘cause I was making an awful lot of money, I was eating in the best restaurants in the West End and hotels all over the world, staying in the best hotels.
CB: What do you think you would’ve done if you hadn’t gone in the RAF?
JA: God knows
CB; Do you think you would have just brought your success as a businessman you just have brought that forward as it were and you would’ve started it straight away?
JA: I don’t know.
CB: Or did you need your time in the RAF to form and develop?
JA: I think the RAF made me very aggressive and when I went for a job after ready for coming out of the RAF, I was in uniform and I had an interview with the personnel manager of an engineering firm and he said ‘what were you doing in the Air Force?’ no ‘what were you doing in the war?’, well I was dressed in uniform, I’d got a flying badge and medal ribbons, I thought it was pretty obvious what I was doing, I said ‘I was flying in the Royal Air Force’ ‘oh’ he said ‘not much use to us is it?’, I was very aggressive at that time, the war had made me a bit loopy, and I felt like I wanted to knock his head off but I thought just a minute he’s right, I’ve learnt how to fly an aeroplane, how to drop bombs, how to blow people up, how to shoot people, I’ve learnt nothing that’s of any use to a civilian employer, he’s right I’ve completely wasted my time, if I been a cook or a lorry driver I would have something to contribute, but that made me determined to overtake all the people who hadn’t served in the war so I started at the bottom in a factory, and I went to evening classes and I had private tutors, I spent all my money on tuition, I got language teachers, I leaned Latin, I learned Russian, and I perfected my German and within two years I was head of the German department in import export firm with only Germans working for me, because I was an engineer and a German speaking Englishman, so I’d got an advantage there, and the cold war had started, and I thought either there’s going to be a war with Russia or eventually the Soviet empire is so big there will be a demand for things –
CB: that’s where you did most of your trade –
JA: So I learnt Russian so I could negotiate contracts in Moscow in Russian –
CB: Tenacious, determined.
JA: Well I was determined to do better than everybody, I went for an interview ,when I first came out of the Air Force, because I understand the government were giving grants to ex-service men, and I went for an interview and they said ‘what were you doing before you joined the Royal Air Force?’ and I said ‘well I was in school until just before’, they said ‘were you not studying for a profession?’, I said ‘I was only seventeen when I joined the air force, I was studying higher mathematics and subjects that would get me through the selection board to be a pilot’, I said ‘the town was being bombed and I thought by joining the Air Force I could help to stop that’, they looked at me, they were thinking you simpleton, they said ‘we only give grants to professional people’, so few weeks later I made another application and the attitude to me was humiliating or intended to be humiliating, so I got, I was fed up with being humiliated so I told the interviewee off, I really told him off, in words, you’ve never heard before and the second man who was sitting with him, when I left, rushed out with me and jumped in the lift and he said ‘thank you for doing that’, he said ‘that was wonderful the way you told him off, I’ve had to sit there for weeks listening to his rudeness’ he said ‘you really fixed him’. When I got a job as an armours designer, because I’d been in the Air Force and been shot, not because I knew anything about designing [slight pause], all the other people in the department had gone straight from school, into the ministry and they’d all got a free education and got a higher national certificate which is what I wanted to do you see, so I thought they’ve never been in the service and they’re the same age as me and they’re well ahead of me, got their qualifications, I’ll beat them, I’ve got to be better than them, so that’s what drove me on, I was inferior and I became superior ‘cause I had to, I had to do it, I spent all my money on studying, spent all my time on studying.
CB: Well that’s been a fantastic story Jim, thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jim Auton
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Auton grew up on Royal Air Force stations and joined the Royal Air Force at seventeen. He trained as a pilot navigator and bomber at RAF Ansty near Coventry, then in South Africa under the Empire Air Training Scheme. He trained on B-24s at Lidder and after travelling up through Africa was stationed at Foggia in Italy, where he started his operations. He describes the tough conditions there, as well as the operations in which he participated, such as targeting an oil refinery in Fiume, now known as Rijeka in Croatia and Ploiesti in Romania. He took part in mining operations in the Danube as well as secret operations to drop supplies in Warsaw to support the uprising. Whilst on his thirty-seventh operation, he was injured and describes his time in hospital, the journey home and his ground jobs in the Royal Air Force after the war. He also relates why he turned down a Distinguished Flying Medal, and recounts his post-war career as a businessman.
Creator
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Clare Bennett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-08
Contributor
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Emma Bonson
Heather Hughes
Language
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eng
Identifier
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AAutonJF150608
Format
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02:13:37 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Warwickshire
Croatia--Rijeka
Danube River
Egypt
Italy--Foggia
Poland--Warsaw
Italy
Poland
Romania--Ploiești
Croatia
Romania
Danube River
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
animal
B-24
bombing
coping mechanism
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Medal
fear
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
RAF Ansty
RAF Benson
sanitation
superstition
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Warsaw airlift (4 August - 28 September 1944)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/163/2079/PBanksP15020069.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/163/2079/PBanksP15020070.1.jpg
31ce7847ad6ae6949f9cc376990258de
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Banks, Peter. Album two
Description
An account of the resource
The album contains a varied collection of photographs taken whilst based at RAF Feltwell from 1937 onwards. There are aerial views of Windsor and Buckingham Palace, Harrow aircraft, plus social and service events. Post-war he was transferred to Singapore via India and Burma. The album reflects his social life with occasional photograph of his service activities at RAF Seletar. His return to UK via Bombay at the time of Indian independence is recorded, followed by scenic shots round Wick in Scotland. Finally there are some photographs of Angkor Thom in Cambodia. It also contains pages from newspapers dated 18 and 19 June 1940. <br /><br />Return to the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/140">main collection</a>.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Format
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One photograph album
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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PBanksP1501
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Suez Canal
Description
An account of the resource
Photograph 1 is taken from the side of a lager ship. In the water are small boats selling fruit, vegetables and other items.
Photograph 2 is of a dredger.
Photograph 3 is of a lighthouse.
Photograph 4 is of trees at the side of the canal.
Photograph 5 is of two cargo ships.
Photograph 6 is of some birds. In the distance some ships and low hills.
Photograph 7 is of some distant ships.
Photograph 8 is of sand dunes at the side of the canal.
Photograph 9 is of a bridge and some buildings at the side of the canal.
Photograph 10 is of six men leaning on the side of the ship.
Photograph 11 is of a native sailing boat.
Photograph 12 is of a three funnelled passenger ship passing a dredger. Captioned 'Vessel passing dredging machine'.
Photograph 13 is of two ships captioned 'Crossing of two vessels'
Photograph 14 is of a monument captioned 'Indian Memorial near Suez'.
Photograph 15 is of a statue of a man on a plinth with a protective chain fence, captioned 'De Lesseps Statue'
Photograph 16 is of a monument captioned 'War memorial 1914/8 at Timsah Lake'.
Photograph 17 is of a passenger ship and a twin funneled tug captioned 'Entrance to Timsah Lake'.
Photograph 18 is of several small boats and in the distance some larger ships.
The group of photograph are captioned 'Suez Canal 1 to 18 Port Said to Port Suez 90 mile x 90 yds x 90 feet'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
18 b/w photographs mounted on two album pages
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBanksP15020069
PBanksP15020070
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Egypt--Suez Canal
North Africa
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
memorial
-
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24bd96b9837be57b873fc91da711adcf
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/155/2173/AWhitworthJL160622.1.mp3
035dbbe8410756ff1b3360461b4b946f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whitworth, John
J Whitworth
John Leslie Whitworth
J L Whitworth
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Flying Officer John L Whitworth (b. 1921), one photocopy, seven pilot’s navigation charts and eight photographs which include seven target photographs. John Whitworth was a pilot and flew Mosquitos with 162 Squadron Pathfinders from RAF Bourn in 1944 and 1945.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Whitworth, JL
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: Hello, my name is Pam Locker and I’m in the home of Mr John Leslie Whitworth of *** Harrogate, HG2 0NTand it’s the 22nd of June 2016.
JW: Yes
PL: So John, can I just start by saying on behalf of the International Bomber Command Memorial Trust, an enormous thank you for agreeing to talk to us and share your memories.
JW: My pleasure.
PL: Can I start with your — start at the beginning?
JW: Yes, I came from a large family, eight, born in Sutton Coldfield. I was number seven, five elder sisters, one older brother and one younger brother. My father and mother — for many years my father had, before the war, had a very substantial motor, er, motor car showroom business, service station, everything, which the war killed There was no business, it collapsed completely. My father was too honest. He paid out everybody, every employer and everything, and started up and expanded this cycle business. A very wonderful father, er, man, with all these kids he educated. I was educated at Bishop Peter’s School, Sutton Coldfield, a famous old grammar school. Anyway, I was, I was then being trained as an articled clerk, chartered accountancy. The war came, we struggled a bit. My younger brother, because of the collapse of my father’s business, couldn’t go to university, so I’ve always been very, very bitter about Germans. I don’t like Germans. I don’t trust them anymore or anything and the sooner we get far away from them in the European Union the better. But that’s me. Anyway (pause), England, Britain was hit very hard. Along came Dunkirk. To me, we looked after ourselves marvellously. Got our army back. Like everybody else I’d already signed up to go in the Air Force, put on reserve and everything. After the complete collapse I joined the Home Guard with all my powers, the whole lot. To say that Britain couldn’t look after itself is rubbish. We did, we had to then, we’d got nothing. Thousands of little boats went across and got people back from the Channel and to say we fought on our own, cannot live without the European Union, is rubbish. We can, we’ve done it once and we can do it again. Anyway, in the Home Guard, name Whitworth. Everybody had volunteered for aircrew, all my friends, or the Fleet Air Arm. We were at the end of the queue. It was 1940 [laugh]. It was 1941 before I eventually went in the Air Force, signed up down at Cardington in the week and then training at Torquay, at ITW, and then flying training at Sywell, near Northampton. Learned to fly Tigers. At that time, er, most training was going on in Britain. I went down to Lyneham where, to learn to fly Oxfords, um, and literally we were almost the last [emphasis] of aircrew, bomber aircrew at any rate, trained in Britain. Everything went to Canada, Rhodesia and everything, all the whole lot. I was almost the last one. Learnt to fly Oxfords, and then went to Moreton in the Marsh. What was I doing in ’42? I got my wings. I didn’t get a commission because [laugh], I’ll say this, I was marched in for my final interview in front of the group captain and everything, and a certain Warrant Officer Marsh said, ‘This gentleman has not had — this candidate has not had the courtesy of having a haircut’. I was not a long haired — it was about like — I was not — well of course — well that ruined that. I got my wings at Little Rissington, er, sergeant pilot, posted very rapidly to Moreton in the Marsh, which — Wellingtons — which was the feeder station for crews, Wellington crews, all going out to the Middle East. Trained there, formed a crew and the second pilot, a Geordie, two Australians, three Brits, two Australians, and a New Zealander. A mixed-up crew. Wonderful. Great. Always remember going together. When you first got together on Wellingtons, you’re all stuck in a crew room and you sort yourselves out and a nice looking fella, there’s his picture there, called Brian Hurd, walked up to me, looked at me, looked at me, said, ‘My name’s Brian Hurd. Do you want a good navigator?’ I said, ‘I’m John Whitworth’, I said, ‘I’m one pilot to two but I think I shall be captain’. I jolly well intended to be anyway [laugh], I knew I was better than the other lad who’d asked to fly with me. Formed up, we trained there, down to Portreath, Cornwall. Waited for a week for a following wind in a brand new Wellington. Gibraltar. A night’s sleep. Off to Malta. As we got near Malta, we knew we, we were getting there [slight laugh]. It was getting evening then. It was a long flight. It’s a long flight, seven hours, with no friends either side. There wasn’t any going to Gibraltar. If you didn’t make it, well nobody would see what’s [unclear], you know, occupied [unclear], one or the other and it was the same down there. As we stood there, there was flak going up. It was an air raid. Oh, it was good to see. It was the only time in my life I’ve ever been glad, as a bomber pilot, to see flak. That was ours [emphasis], shooting at the Germans [laugh] who were raiding it and stopped it. In we went and they were - pow! All over the plane, gave our three passengers a pop! Gone. In twenty minutes we were gone, up to Egypt, non- stop. When we got to Egypt, straight down into unit, tied up in the central transit camp. We hadn’t had any sleep of any sort for thirty-six hours. That was it. That was what happened to everyone. Posted almost immediately to 37 Squadron, Wellingtons, at Abu Suier, near Ismailia, and started my first tour.
PL: Who were your passengers?
JW: Three army fellas. A sergeant and an officer who were all — I think were a bit huffy. I mean in a Wellington, you’ve no room. We said, ‘Make yourself as comfortable as you can on the bed’. And that’s it. He sort of got the idea he could come up the front. Were all sergeants, even a lieutenant, and well, it meant nothing to us at all, ‘Behave yourself. Don’t be sick’. [unclear] And then, ‘Don’t be sick. Here’s some bags. Don’t be sick in my aeroplane’. They listened to me. They weren’t. When he went back, he said, ‘We were flown out from Malta by a little bastard sergeant who pushed us around and said, ‘Don’t be sick’’. And I meant it. [unclear] I always remember, ‘Don’t be —’ [laugh] Well that was it. I’d tell my passenger. Never mind them. If someone’s sick in your aeroplane it stinks and clearing up and anyway, that was our squadron. Almost immediately I was informed that I’d have to do a number of operations as a second pilot, er, and learn the trade, fair enough, before I got my captaincy. I did — my crew didn’t like that, especially as the fella that took over — his name was Pierce, it was Pilot Pierce. I went up, took — had to take a plane up to Tel Aviv in Palestine and while I was there, he went on his first op with my crew, crashed on take-off and my great friend Alex Sutcliffe, the New Zealander, who’d come all the way from New Zealand, trained, trained with me. He used to come home, met my family, and they liked him. He was a quiet country lad, was lovely, was killed on his very first — hadn’t even done his first op. Anyway, but I came back from Palestine and they said Alex was killed last night. Oh God, they crashed and he as front gunner, was in the fuselage. It set on fire and he had difficulty getting out. They got him out but he was badly burned and died. A particularly terrible tragedy for someone who’d come all the way from New Zealand to help us and flown all the way, halfway back to the Middle East and everything, had friends and everything, was killed. Anyway, now I’m going to tell you, I was lucky that I didn’t get commissioned. When it came through on the Squadron later on, all the things came through. There was no Marsh to muck it up. I was commissioned later on Squadron but I was lucky in my crew,the whole way because we were all sergeants and I made wonderful friends for the time they lived. We operated from there. I did two ops, on the third op I went to Tobruk, which was a seven hour flight. Three hours or so each way, three and a half hours over the target. On the second flight an engine started to play up, seized up, lost a propeller. Wellingtons lost — would lose, the best Wellington, best for petrol, would lose a hundred feet a minute, so if you were at eighty, eight thousand feet we’d got eighty minutes flying. That was three hours flying to do back. We got a fair bit the way back but eventually we gradually sank, sank, sank down and we were getting back towards the lines and we just flew into the ground. No option. No don’t jump out in the desert in a parachute or anything like that. No option, you, you stuck together, we crashed, all walked out. The pilot I was with was good but we combined well on that crash. I still had quite a bit to do with it. We could have landed better, I can say that now. I said it then and I say it now, I was a better pilot than the fella I was attached with but that was it. Anyway we walked out. We walked, oh, I suppose this was about 2 o’clock in the morning, and we walked all through the night across the desert. The desert was pretty flat scrub like bracken, you know, all through into daylight. And believe you me, when you’re walking to save your life or to avoid being captured, you walk. We carried ten gallon of water, which was in every Wellington strapped to the ladder, and the six of us walked and there wasn’t a grumble all the way of any description. We walked and walked and walked. And dawn came up and we kept walking and it got hotter and hotter but we still walked. Er, it was est— estimated we’d done over twenty, twenty-five kilometres which was somewhere between ten to fifteen miles but we walked and we weren’t sure whether we’d got over the lines. We were well south of the lines on the edge of [unclear], a depression there and the walking wasn’t bad but we didn’t know if it was mined. We didn’t know anything, we just walked. We weren’t really certain but we thought we were — had reached safety, but there was no trouble that far south which we’d deliberately come. The navigator had got us there, er, and suddenly we looked and there coming down the sand, a wadi, a shallow depression there, was a truck in desert colouring and everything, you couldn’t — no markings on it at all and we looked at it and somebody said, ‘Oh God. Look at those front mudguards’. They were flat. British trucks were Bedfords, curved mudguards. The Germans and Italians were — militar had a big flat front at the top where they could load a mach or you could load three chaps when you were escaping or going forward to the mach and you could sit on there and hang on. These had got flat mudguards. We dropped down on the ground in a little huddle, all six of us there. I had got a thirty-eight pistol that the pilot had, all the pilots had those, carried them. Don’t know why but we did. [laugh] We had a little conflab. What can we do? There’s nowhere to run. No, we mustn’t get separated. We just got to give up. I mean, the fella got out and he’d got a machine gun, obvious a — never knew what sort it was — it was a machine gun and that and if he shoots [unclear] all packed up, we got to give up and the captain, Mick Marne, said, ‘If anyone’s got to give up, it’s my responsibility’. Tied the handkerchief on his pistol, hands up and walk towards the truck, and I suppose this truck was a hundred and fifty, two hundred yards away, and he got about halfway holding this up. I see it so clearly, you know, in my mind and this chap standing in the front of the truck with this and just watching him come. And all of sudden he started [applause], yelling and jumping, ‘He’s British, he’s British, he’s British’. It wasn’t an American truck they were using. This was a research salvage unit, four wheel drive, desert truck with American flat mudguards. Oh God. Oh, a cup of tea that’s all we thought of. They were out looking for crashed aircraft, all other manner of vehicles picking up spares or anything and that’s it. Anyway, we had cup of tea, that’s all we could think of. Out came a primus stove and we had a cap of tea. Picked us up. We got in the back of that truck. Steel floor, steel floor with a few bits, nothing else, no, nothing at all. And that was the best seat I’ve ever sat on. We were safe and we headed off for the nearest airport which, well was about — I suppose at this time it was about 11 o’clock in the morning, 11 o’clock, and we headed off - bump, bump, bump - and bump on our bottoms in the back, no, no padding, [laugh], all there was the steel floor and some parts that they’d got which had at least been strapped so they didn’t get — and off we went to back to Cairo, Almaza airport. Another truck and we were back, all six of us. The only injury was a fellow called Barlow, he’d whitish fair hair, almost snowy, he got a terrific black eye, that was the only thing and we were back home. And thank heaven. We were known to the — by the signals we’d sent back as we came back that we were somewhere in the desert, and not even, nothing had been sent back to England about missing or anything. They were waiting for some news so no bad news had been sent back. And we were back. Now, I said I’m lucky. I’m lucky and possibly one of the luckiest people who ever got in the Air Force. Two days later, we were all lined up for another operation, again to go — this was August the 2nd and August the 4th or August the 1st or thereabouts.
PL: 19—
JW: 70 Squadron was the other squadron and they were sending about fifteen aircraft on another operation. It was all Tobruk at that time it was because that was —
PL: What year was this, John? What year was this?
JW: This was 1942. This was August 1942. We’d flown out in June. This was August. Er, the captain was a pilot officer. Alright. He seemed a decent bloke. He wasn’t — we were all sergeants. We took our kit out before going to briefing [cough], five of us, myself and — and I was second pilot. I was not in charge anyway. Just seeing that was everything before going to briefing. The aircraft, thirty aircraft, were all down the side of the airfield, not all in a line but all round the edge waiting and we were the front one at an angle. The others were all straight, and the other four got in, the plane, checking the thing and I was in the front talking to an airmen. I don’t know what it was, something about the aircraft or something, and then I heard this noise, a noisy aircraft in the circuit, obviously not running properly, and I watched it and it was a Boston, an American light bomber but part of the South African Air Force, and it was coming round and it was in trouble, and it came round and, didn’t realise at the time, he came round downwind, had to. The other four in the aircraft hung on, one in the rear turret, and I was with the airmen in the front and I watched, watched it. I was right by the ladder, instead of climbing up, I just watched it, watched, and watched and he came down and touched down at the end of the runway, bounced and he completely lost it, lost control completely and he headed straight for us, absolutely — we’re number 1. Aircraft 1, 2, 3, we’re — straight for us. All I could do was scream something to the others, nothing, could do nothing, and I ran with the airman, just ran and, er, as we ran, there was this a terrific petrol explosion behind us as the two hit - woof! And the fully, fully bombed up, all these aircraft had all got five— five hundreds on board, and we dived into a slip trench which was put fairly close behind in case of German low flying attacks, which didn’t happen but could have happen. This was the nearest thing, you dived in, we dived in there, lay down and the first bomb went off and blew, blew — I was suppose I was thirty, thirty yards, forty yards from where it blew up, blew it to bits, a piece of geodetic that big landed on the back of the airmen in front of me and - pow! We rolled over, over and over. I said, ‘We’ve got to run’. The two of us just scampered off as hard as we could go and I never saw that airman again, no reason to, and I ran and ran and ran, er, get into a proper air raid shelter, which I found another bomb had gone off in an aircraft, and dived in. Well of course nobody but the people out there and flying control could see what happened. Everybody thought it was an air raid, these bombs were going off, there was aircraft somewhere, Jerrys or something, Italians were bombing us and these were bombs and the whole of the air raid warnings had gone off and everybody was in the shelters and everything. The natives working were running screaming and, oh dear, and I collapsed in the shelter and two of my friends were there, one of which was Brian Hurd, his picture’s there, my previous navigator, and they took me off to the, the sick quarters and, er, which time, there were one or two people coming in, and took me back and I was given this injection and I was put to bed by two of them, put to bed, and — but for the rest of the night, um, this aircraft and the others caught fire and five blew up and a number of others were damaged in that, in it, and of course the whole airfield was chaos. So, I know but I really — the next day I was — I just never got out of bed but anyway I survived. Eight, eight air crew in that collision, two survived. Our rear gunner, he got out of the rear cockpit somehow or other. He was injured. I never saw him again. That was the only survivor out of eight. Now there was lucky for you and I hadn’t got a scratch. Our air gunner, the New Zealander, he was taken — I know he was taken to a hospital in Cairo. What was he? He was injured. I never saw him again. But there was luck. I was one survivor out of eight or half as, or one of two and I was burned here on the — I’ve got all the reports. In, in the reports this was the worst damaged aircraft and airfield at Abu Suier of any axis air raid in the whole [emphasis] of the North Africa campaign. It’s in the RAF records that this was the worst and I was a survivor. Anyway, there we are. I was attached to it then and attached to another crew who —
PL: John, can I just ask you, what about the other planes? Were other, I mean I imagine it to be like a domino effect.
JW: Yes, all five in a row were set on fire and blew up.
PL: Goodness.
JW: Five and we were all one crew.
PL: Did any of the other crews managed to escape?
JW: And others were damaged. Somewhere or other I’ve got the report with the numbers of them. But it says in the records that was the most damage done by any air raid and it was done, done by ourselves.
PL: Did any of the other crews manage to escape?
JW: They all got away. Er, probably in, in the one or two others they hadn’t come out. We’d just gone out with our kit and it happened in that minute or two. That was all. We were only out there three minutes but nobody else was hurt or anything and I was a survivor and that was it. Myself and the airman, he was alright. There, there we are. I survived that. Went on to do — that was three ops, another thirty-four, after I did about ten. Well for one thing I had to do was as second pilot, because this was the crew I should have inherited, was getting near, the captain was getting near the end of his tour and I should have inherited but they’d gone. And so I’ve got to be found a place in another crew and, and there wasn’t one with a place coming up for a while so I had to do, I think I did about another ten and then I got — took over a crew which I kept right to the end. Did another thirty-four ops. Two hundred and fifty hours [laugh]. It’s all there. All in that book.
PL: Goodness me. And did you —
JW: Anyway, er, I finished the tour up at — we got moved forward at that time. Of course, there was the big advance. The — if you could be exciting in the Wellington bombers. Jerry was streaming back, streaming back and we, at night, we bombed them. And the front line, the British front line, they had a strip of lights wherever they’d got to. So anything west of that was the Germans or Italians. We’d bomb that at quite low level, er, all the battle area and groups and that were lit up by Aboukir by the Fleet Air Arm who were in Alexandria, who weren’t very far away, but they were on a carrier that was stuck, they were stuck, they were stuck and they did a very good job of blooming hitting it and in a flat area, after bombing, we used to go down to low level, about three hundred feet, and empty our machine guns on anything we could see and back, er, that was introduced by the squadron commander, the Australian Rankin, who couldn’t do enough to kill Germans. He’d got some reason. It started, Rankin, said, ‘When you come back at low level anything, there’s not big bombs, you’re at three feet, anything you can see west of the British lights shoot at’. [laugh] And we had these big Wellingtons. That’s what they were there for. Strafers. It made a bit of variety [laugh] but anyway, I finished my tour, back to Cairo, there at Cairo stuck in a transit camp for ages waiting for a way back. There was nothing. You couldn’t go up the Mediterranean or anything. You got to get — eventually the Americans sent up a very good, er, military airline, a military airline, which flew us across the southern Sahara to West Africa to Lagos and there, then we sat at Lagos waiting for a boat until an absolute hell ship came, which was full, full of coloured troops in the basement. They were going up to Freetown for some reason I don’t know, and, er, as we flew, we sailed from Lagos to Freetown which was a week’s journey, covered by a rickety old armed trawler [laugh], so they could only draw water from one side for some reason. The Cap Cadoran was her name. This was a French merchant boat which we converted into a troop carrier. As we did so we got a bigger list and when we eventually arrived in Freetown we’d got a list like that [laugh]. Well that meant going down into the mess decks or anything like that, you got steps like that or the other side [laugh], there you climbed up them or go down, either up or down, according to which side. Oh dear, that meant that one day someone with buckets of porridge were coming into, from the cook, cook area into eating (we ate and slept in this area) and someone slipped and the buckets fell down the steps and everybody got a bit, you know what I mean [laugh]. It was a joke, anyway. We said, ‘Did you get any porridge today?’ Up to Freetown and there were these coloured troops and the rest were all returning aircrew, there was a hell of a lot of them. All parts of Bomber Command were there, all the volunteers, Canadians, New Zealanders and Australians and when we got to Freetown, they absolutely — we were going home. We’d have literally got in a row boat and rowed across, if you could think of it [laugh]. They weren’t. They went, they were just going from there to, the Aussies and New Zealanders were getting further from home again and the Canadians weren’t getting any nearer really and they refused to move until they’d inspected — and literally — it wasn’t a strike, it wasn’t a mutiny, it was a plain fact. They just stated that we shall not to move off this boat until we can expect the next and rightly so as I say. All the Brits, we agreed with them but we were going home. We’d row a blooming thing. They weren’t. Anyway we were put on — oh, several big troop ships came up from South Africa, all loaded with prisoners of war and, and other people going back to the European, going to — South African troops as well going up to Europe. We were put on a Dutch boat which was good and, er, they formed up a huge, huge quarry, huge convoy in Freetown which has a huge harbour, and almost with them I think we had a cruiser and three destroyers and about, I think it was six troop carriers, and right smack in the middle, protected all around, was the Warspite Battleship which had been — had come all the way round. It was badly damaged somehow or other by an air raid in the Mediterranean, and it come down through and was on its way back to Britain for repair but they stuck that right in the blooming middle, which we — it was correct. It was proper battle order, but to RAF blokes to have the blooming Navy in a warship with us all round [laugh], it was funny. We came up, back up and stopped off at the Canaries for a while, while the battleship refuelled and destroyers, and we just walloping along and nothing but we had — we heard some explosions a long away which we believe was someone expected something and let off one of the depth charges but never knew. Up to Liverpool, back on leave, a week or two’s leave and I was posted down to Wing to a Wellington Instructor Unit. I’d been there as a sergeant. While there my flight sergeant came through and was called up and my commission had came through on December the 5th 1942 and I was commissioned in February. Hung on for a week or so to get my uniform and everything and I was then — oh, the chief ground instructor seemed to think I’d, I’d make a good ground instructor, probably because I could speak reasonable English [laugh] and that, and sent me on a number of courses, a PO and a flying course, that was on Oxfords, and did well on that and then I went on a ground instruction course. Oh, a great course at Luffenham Airfield, how to intruct, which was a very instructive course, taught how to, how to make a speech, and how to tell things and everything, things which were so handy in later life, how to put it together and things. Very, very good — how to bomb things. It was a very, very good course. Then I went on an engine handling course down at Bristol. And then, then they decided they wanted a squadron air sea rescue officer, so I went on an air sea rescue course, um, took, told how to land an aircraft in the sea in fog. But no way you could pass on and no way of practising that except above the clouds, try it on the clouds and that [unclear]. I spent a whole lot of, a whole period there, early days, and then I was put straight in ch— second in the ground instruction area, er, airmanship, and I had a cushy job, absolute cushy job. Formed up a golf team. We used to sneak off for an afternoon and that sort of thing up to, up to the local golf course at Leighton Buzzard and, oh dear and, er, I had a great friend called Atkins, he was an engineer. He’d done a tour on Stirlings and we got on like a house on fire, and he was a keen golfer and he suddenly found out I was a golfer. He said, ‘I hear you play’. Yes, I was one handicap. ‘Oh’, he said, ‘Let’s — I play off about seven up at Liverpool way’. He said, ‘Let’s go up and hire us some clubs at the nine hole course at Leighton Buzzard’. And off we went up there and across. Saw the pro. Oh yes, he’d hire us some clubs, some very old ones and he didn’t have any idea. He just thought we were people trying it out. And some old balls and that and we had a few holes. Anyway, we came in and he apologised. He said, ‘Oh, I’m so sorry about these’. And he went off up the [unclear]. You couldn’t make it up. Anyway we joined up and, oh dear, it was a really cushy number there. Really was. We could disappear out for the afternoon. We both joined the local club and played in competitions and organised the team. And, um, on one great occasion I remember, always and so will he, we went and played and he said, ‘I’ve got a car’. And the original leave petrol I got when I was demobbed right at the beginning lasted about 18 months [laugh]. I mean, we found it and never really had to use our own petrol but you went in the right garage and you got a coupon for one and we’d say, ‘Come on, come on. We’re rested air crew, bomber air crew. What can you do for us?’ And, you know, ‘C’mon, where’s the gaffer?’ I never got away with less than five gallons from the one [laugh]. We always had petrol. Anyway, he said, ‘Ashridge is a good course just down by [unclear] not very far away’, he said. That’s the famous course where Henry Cotton, who we knew was in the Air Force, is, was pro and everything. ‘Let’s go down and have a weekend stay in the hotel nearby at Ashridge’. And we went down there and played golf. Went down the Friday, that’s right, the Friday evening, booked in the hotel. Nice and comfortable. We didn’t earn a lot of money but we got enough to stay and we went up to Ashridge and played golf on the Saturday, and met a number of people, and got chatting about this and aircrew and God knows what, and, um, someone said, ‘Oh, Henry Cotton is back in his house just down the road. He was a pro there and been a pro there’. He said, ‘He’s back there and he comes up to play occasionally’. Henry had been invalided out. He was invalided because he’d got stomach ulcers, duodenal ulcers, which you had to have a special diet and you were straight out in the Forces because they couldn’t do it. And, ‘He’ll probably be around’, and we said we’d like to meet him, you know. We were equivalent in rank in any case to what he’d been, and in any case in the Air Force, he was non-aircrew. We were pretty, pretty snooty, you know, especially after operations. You’d done a tour of ops and you looked down on everybody else, which we had. And we came in and there was Henry Cotton and we were introduced to him and had a long chat and that sort of thing and, er, I don’t know, we got on and we were going to play on the Sunday morning and then go off. And we said we were there and he said, ‘I must be playing tomorrow afternoon with my wife, Toots’. Toots, she was a South American, I think it was, a nice person. He said, ‘Would you like to join us for a few holes?’ Join Henry Cotton! Ay? Henry Cotton! Good Lord yes, definitely yes and we had nine holes with Henry Cotton. That was something. In my golfing career people said, ‘Who’d you played with?’ I’d say, ‘Oh yes, I’ve played with Henry Cotton’. ‘What?’ [laugh] True. The only boast in all my life, but the great Henry Cotton. Anyway, er, it came to a point in September ‘44 I’d been where life was too easy, er, my greatest pal was shot down at Arnhem in Thunderbolts, attacking, and I volunteered to go back on ops and Fox started to form up a Lancaster team. One or two people came up and, er, started touring and, um, Charlie — what’s his — the chief engineer, said, ‘I hear you’re going back on ops, Lancs, John’. I didn’t call him Charlie. ‘Yes Sir. Yes Sir. Yes Sir. I’m going’. He said, ‘Well, I can get you on Mosquitos’. I said, ‘What? Mosquitos’. I mean, they were only really coming out as the fastest propeller plane in the world, and faster than anything, absolutely, well bombers. ‘I can get you onto those’. What? Oh golly, and off I went to Mosquitos. No, first I had to pass the high altitude test, which was three times in a decompression chamber, the equivalent of thirty-five thousand feet, so you that didn’t get the bends. I mean Mosquitos operated at around thirty thousand feet and some people get the bends, you know, at around thirty thousand feet. Of course, you never did it on heavies or anything else and I remember sitting in there, didn’t dare move, you know, in case, in case you got a pain. Anyway I passed it and was on — I went straight off onto a Mosquito Training Unit and onto the squadron. And the Mosquitos, not just an ordinary squadron, a squadron being formed for Pathfinder Force. We were — we did spoofs and everything for the other Pathfinders, the Bennetts and — a light night striking force and Mosquitos attached to it. We did spoofs and things, window in front of the heavies and that, all sorts of things. I did fifty ops on Mossies. Twenty-one to Berlin.
PL: Goodness. I’m sorry John. I don’t understand, what’s spoofs? When you say spoofs, what do you mean?
JW: [laugh] Spoofs. What it is, a spoof, we went in front of the main force when they were going to a target and that, and then we branched off, like wherever it was going, we branched off to another target, bunging out this window, these bits and pieces, to give it that we were a much bigger force, deliberate to take — they thought that the Pathfinders who were in the front were going to so and so, and we used to go towards that, alert the German fighters, they’re going Berlin. Everything they thought, ‘cause of Mosses, they thought it was Berlin. Thought the heavies were going there but they weren’t. They were going to another target. And that was it. And that was the lot to my job. And then we, I was moved from 142 to 162 — 142 was a stick it squadron on the worst station in Bomber Command, the ground and lodge, all mud. Oh, we were glad to get posted from there. I did about ten ops, mainly to Berlin, from there and we were posted to 162 at Bourn, which is a nice station, with another Mossie squadron, and, er, not too big a mess and no mud, [unclear] was shocking. This, this was October, you know, October ’40, blimey, October ’44 and it was terribly wet. Terribly. You couldn’t go anywhere without wellingtons or flying boots, awful place, and not even a decent pub which [laugh] — and we were posted to Bourn, which was near Cambridge, and that was where I finished up. Completed fifty ops from there just in time, just before the war ended, and back to Group and two tours. I was — if you were a fighter and you got five killed, you were considered an Ace. In Bomber Command there was no such thing as that, but if you survived two tours as a pilot you were, you were a Bomber Baron. That’s what I acquired. A Bomber Baron. It meant nothing. It meant nothing. It was just a phrase. I’d done two tours and I could go up to Group, Pathfinder Force, and could pick anything I wanted. And at that time, I meant to stay in the Air Force and I wanted to go onto a Dakota transport unit to learn how to fly those, which would be good if I wanted to carry through to civilian flying. I went up there. They said. ‘That’s easy, but there’s a cracking good job for you I can put you on at Pershore’, which was quite near home. A ferry unit, Number 1 Ferry Unit. They were ferrying aircraft, Mosquitos, out to India and everything like that, for the huge build up at that time for the big attack planned, Army, Navy and Air Force, on Malaya and Singapore and they were pouring out. And I went out there and then a posting came to go to Islamabad, Number 9 Ferry Unit in India, which was a very established station and I thought, ‘Oh, there’d be something of a job out there’, which there was. And I took it, I needn’t have gone as I’d done one overseas tour. I needn’t have gone, but I did go and ended up there and, of course, out there we were getting everything ready, and everything all ready to — the most experienced going right to the forward ‘drome so that when the big attack came, we could take aircraft to where they captured an airfield and established a unit, and we moved down there, Rangoon, and we were all ready and someone came and said, ‘There a great big bomb. Huge bomb. We think the war will be over’. It was the atomic bomb and it was all over. And, um, we were stuck there. Nobody wanted to know anything or anyone. There was nobody wanted aircraft, nothing. All the chaps could think was, ‘How can we get home? How? ’ Army, Navy, the lot. We were stuck there, absolutely. I was the second in command of the ferry flight at Maubin there, and, er, Squadron Leader Poutney, he was posted to somewhere else. He’d got his permanent commission, he was posted somewhere and I was appointed CO, Temporary Acting Squadron Leader, Temporary Acting Confirmation Flight Lieutenant Whitworth to Supervisor disbandment of the unit. Just somebody had seen I was a trained chartered accountant and must have thought I could do something, which I did. I did a good job, ended up being posted down to another unit, the group, the group communication flight to disband it as well and I ended up with nothing but an aeroplane and the first one — two aeroplanes and I got instruction for everything, every blooming thing, everything off, where it went in. The crews, all the crews, all the ground crews but nothing for the aeroplanes. I left them, but obviously the, the things were in control. And it had been a ferry crew had come and collected, abandoned them there and the second [unclear]. Anyway, I could see I’d get a good job but it would be in administration and I hadn’t stayed in the Air Force as pilot. And up came my demob number and I came home and out.
PL: So how did you get home?
JW: How did I get home?
PL: Yes.
JW: Boat. Boat. All the way from Rangoon across the Ind— oh, nice boat. Empress of Canada, nice boat but jammed full of troops, jammed full. And the officer’s thing was absolutely a mess. The first day out of — oh, two sittings for food and, er, we sailed out into the Indian Ocean there, south Indian Ocean, and I thought, oh, this is going to be a slog, we’ll be a week up to Colombo. Got to cross this and one in the know said, ‘Don’t worry’, he said, ‘Don’t worry, Sir. Once we get out and starts to roll a bit there won’t be two sitting for meals. Half of these blokes which you’ll never see again’. And we didn’t. Oh, whether they only had every other meal. There was no crowding in the mess for food or anything [laugh] and I never had to worry about seeing these people. And there was not half of them I never saw again, and it was quite a comfortable trip up to Colombo, er, collected a few more, off then and up the — across the South Indian Sea and round Aden, and up through the Suez Canal and up to Hyéres, not far from a port quite near Marseille and they landed us there and the boat was immediately going back. And we came by train across France, right through to the channel ports and across and that was it. And, er, I was demobbed and within a week and then of course I was dead lucky. Dead lucky. I survived everything and then a further great bit of luck occurred. I really didn’t want — I did go back to the office accountancy people for a while. I shouldn’t have been, I shouldn’t have had to take the intermediate exam. I should have gone straight to the final. To be quite candid, having been in charge of two big units, with rather responsible jobs for the last few years, sitting down, swatting and doing — taking the exam I didn’t know what to do. My father — my brother was also coming home and he was going into the business which my father had built up quite a bit, his cycle business, quite considerable. I got in and I looked around all sorts of things, I went out to New Zealand flying, flying crop spraying, I got that and it was a bloody great thing. Canada. And, as I saym I had five sisters and four of them were married, substantially, and one of them, name of George, nice fella, came to me and said, ‘I hear you’re giving up accountancy?’ I said, ‘Yes, George. I really don’t know I’m going what to do. I’m trying to make up my mind to whether go to Canada or something like that or fly with one of the smaller airlines’. He said, ‘Well, I’ve inherited a small engineering manufacturing business’, he said, ‘It’s going alright. Would you like to join me?’ I couldn’t believe my ears. I couldn’t, I couldn’t believe my ears. Anyway I joined him and we worked damned, damned hard and everything and built it up to a substantial business over the next period. Really wasn’t expecting it. And I got married, got married to Audrey, who I’d met before the war and had always — we were parted for seven years but she was the girl and we got married. We had money, we had children and enough money to send them to good schools and was very comfortably off. Very comfortably off, er, right, right until getting towards retirement and I was — George had then retired and died and I was managing director, Chairman and managing director. It was a substantial company and things were getting hard. They were — things were getting, you know, a bit tough about then, er, and I was, I was sixty-one and took one job instead of the sales director. I said, ‘I’ll handle this’. And I made a mess of it. It was a very [unclear] Leyland on trucks. It was a big, big contract. I didn’t make a mess of it but I went and they said, ‘You didn’t do us good’. I was never a great salesman but, ‘You didn’t do a good job on that. Barry Watkins would have done a lot better, got much better terms. You’re over the hill’. And I retired at sixty-two. Came out. There we are. There we are.
PL: So what about the golf, John? What about the golf?
JW: I — oh dear. As soon as I got back straight back to Walmley, a good club. And straight — I got back, I was one handicap and I got down to scratch in 1950, which at that time I was thirty-eight, and for three years, and then in 1953, they altered all the calculations of the handicaps and everybody went up and I went up to three. And I got back to one. I never got back to scratch again. But I was in the County team, I won the County championship, I won the knockout and a few other things and I had very good years, very good years, a lovely wife, two boys, money, nice cars. I lived well. But then —
PL: Wonderful. Wonderful.
JW: As I say then at this time when I reached sixty I retired, I took early retirement, I took early retirement. It cost me as everything was based on the last three years. It cost me, but there we are. I wasn’t hard up. Then we lived in the same house. Bought the house, rented the house when we first got married in ‘54, I bought the house, nice house, in a nice area and everything, Oxford, in my front room. I remember buying it. I had good friends in, in the business and costed it all for me and everything and said you should buy. This was in 1957. You should, um, you should be able to buy this for about four thousand, four thousand three hundred, which was a good market price for a very nice house with land around it too. And I bought it in the front room and I got to our figure and my wife walked out the room. I wasn’t sure she wanted this house but I bought it for four thousand six hundred and I went out and she was crying in the hallway, ‘Oh John. I did so want I this house, you know’. I said ‘I’ve bought it’, ‘What?’ Oh, what, my wife moved, what, grabbed her handbag and tore back in and said there were things she’d lined up to buy in the Oxford area. We bought it and lived in it for fifty-four years until, until she died. Extended it and everything. Nice house, nice house, extended it and added a granny flat for the wife’s father. I lived well but I never thought I’d live to ninety-five, you know. Pension wasn’t great. It wasn’t bad but I’ve got plenty of capital which I’ve spent quite a bit of it, living well, but I thought all the rest of my family had gone into the eighties, and one sister did go into her nineties but, as I say, I never thought I’d live to ninety-five [laugh].
PL: Amazing. Amazing.
JW: Here I am now, still able to get round, losing my teeth [laugh].
PL: But not your memory?
JW: No. Not my memory, no, no.
PL: So John how did you, how do you about feel about how the veterans of Bomber Command have been treated over the years?
JW: How what?
PL: How the veterans form Bomber Command were treated over the years?
JW: Oh, it was a dreadful long time before they gave us the clasp. We shouldn’t have had anything. I mean, in the Middle East, I got the Africa Star and clasp for North Africa on it. At home, got the Air Crew Europe thing but nothing else, nothing else. But there were, considering there were fifty-three thousand, your chances, as I say, Mosquitos yes, Lancs a different matter, different matter.
PL: Did you feel that you were more in —
JW: There were a lot of gongs dished out but an awful lot of them, they were dished out and dead the next week and that sort of thing. People think they didn’t but they were. There was, but the people that got ‘em were dead. And the survivors, well there were quite a few. As I say, I survived and got the DFC and that but it took a long while for them to, to really acknowledge that clasp, Bomber Command, at long last, um, what’s his name? Our Prime Minister, he did authorise it. It should have gone through a long, long time and really I don’t think Churchill did enough and the end of the war to appreciate — to be honest I don’t think he realised that we’d lost fifty-three thousand volunteers, fifty-three thousand of volunteers, not one was pushed in. Everyone was volunteers and all educated, even, even, I mean, my brother was trained as a pilot and got through, served his flying training school in Canada and was near getting his wings but he couldn’t navigate. Jim couldn’t navigate. My brother could never learn how to read maps and getting near his final wings flying test he got lost in Canada and had to land and find out where he was and ring through and they sent for him and everything. And he couldn’t navigate. He couldn’t — he could go to the other side of Birmingham, Sutton Coldfield, and have a job to find his way back. Although it meant going north I don’t think he ever could put the sun and time together. I mean, you know, even in summertime. South, the suns around the 12 o’clock or, or a bit earlier than that to read summer time and east and west and all that and he could never do that. I don’t know why. I don’t know why. He was a damn good engineer. He’d be a blooming good pilot. He should have — he was scrubbed as a pilot right, right at the end of his flying course, right at the very end he was scrubbed. Well, I mean, um, the three categories of pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, the top one. Well [slight laugh] navigator, bomb aimer navigation was essential. So, he — there was no training. He would have made a good flight engineer, really good one, engineering trained and everything. He was really good. He knew all about — but there weren’t any in Canada. All the engineers, nearly all were trained in, in Britain or from British people who had been fitters, etcetera, in Canada and had gone out there. That’s where the basic trained and so of course.
PL: So what did he do?
JW: He became a gunner and put on a squadron, 462 Squadron, which was an Aussie squadron with Aussies, er, up here, up in this part of the world, 5 Group, and then they were transferred down to 100 Group, special duties, and this, in effect, this squadron that used to go around with several wireless operators picking up German radio and [unclear] language. Sometimes they had a German with them and just mucking them up, you know, jamming all the transmissions and that was his job. He did twenty-seven ops and survived. [unclear] two back. There we are. That’s it. But we should have had much more recognition. We should have had that Bomber Command clasp in ‘44, ‘45 long, long ago not just — not just, what’s it? Since I’ve come up here. It’s coming two years ago. It’s two or three years ago. We should have had that. There we are.
PL: Well John, it’s been an absolutely fascinating interview. Thank you so much for your generosity.
JW: I’ve been the luckiest bloke, luckiest bloke to survive. I survived everything. I survived everything even, even in Mosquitos. We were hit over Hamburg with the flak which came through in front, twenty-five thousand feet. It was always a bit of a mystery because very rarely did they get their flak up but we had one hit us and a piece of shrapnel came through the nose of the aircraft and went between — pilot and navigator sat there — between us and thudded in behind, and a bit of Perspex from it flicked my navigator’s eyebrow and, of course, we got a blooming hole in the front and a three hundred mile an hour wind coming in. And I turned and he pulled his mask down and of course, at twenty-five thousand feet, you bleed quite profusely, any — oh God, blooming blood all down here and I remember grabbing him and forcing him to — he pulled his mask off and doing this but it was only a nick. I remember dragging my handkerchief out and stuffing it down and getting him round, and, er, it was alright, and cleaned up a bit of blood spilt, caused two lumps. It was horrible but it was only a nick. That had gone through, missed him and missed me at eye level.
PL: Did you feel more in control what was going to happen to you being in Mosquitos rather than being—
JW: We were?
PL: Being in Mosquitos, did you feel you were more in control?
JW: Oh, absolutely. Mosquitos were marvellous. For a start, they were a two man crew, pilot and navigator or pilot, AI operator sitting. It was two men team. Absolutely. It really was. Whether you was fighter, intruder, Pathfinder, the navigator and the pilot, you worked together one hundred percent. No good pilot was any good without a good navigator, especially on — any plane you had to have a good navigator — but Mosquitos, the two of you were a team and I had a cracking navigator, Canadian, Bill Todd, he was a superb navigator, never failed. He could read H2S radar like — and so it was printed in plain language and that sort of thing. He was — he never took us over. I mean, I’ve got the route cards of many of my ops. We flew near, whenever we were going to Berlin, we flew up north near around Bremen or anything, to wake them up, waje them up, wake them up, down to Berlin. Wherever we went, Magdeburg in the middle, whatever it is, we always flew near, not over [slight laugh] they’d shoot at us, near to — to wake, wake never — Berlin, Berlin they never had any peace, ever. I’ve got copies of, er, from Goebbels’ diaries where he writes, ‘The Mosquitos were here again last night. We never get a good sleep every night’. But anyway, there we are. But the Mosquito was superb. It was a marvellous aeroplane. The film done on the Mosquito, “333, 233 Squadron” an operation where supposedly to a — Mosquito squadron to a heavy water plant in Norway and everything. You see them going off, these well-known film stars, the captain, squadron leader, I think his navigator was only a warrant officer or something, which was extraordinary for a start. I’m sure he was only a flight serg. You see them going up and doing the whole lot, and they come back and the pilot gets out first, oh well, well, you know, well, he comes down before the navi. That’s impossible, that’s a physical impossibility. In a Mosquito the pilot has to get in first, get in it and the navigator comes up and sits alongside him. The entry’s blocked, pull the ladder up, shut the trap. To get out, the navigator has [emphasis] to go first, he just has to and the pilot follows but no, in the film they come back and the pilot gets out, the wonder boy gets out first. Oh, every Mosquito pilot navi is infuriated about that film. They’re infuriated. Physical impossibility or damn near. You have to get the navigator in last and out first. There’s no room. No room. One can’t get past the other. [laugh] That’s infuriating. Oh dear. Any Mossie navigator that’s seen that says, ‘That’s blooming impossible’ [laugh]. Well, chatting to my flight commander he became, he became CO, Wing Commander, what’s his name? Peter MacDermot at Honington, where that film was made. They got these six Mosquitos and that and did that film. I brought it up. He said. But no, no, the star’s got to come out the plane, the great pilot, and it’s the blooming navigator that took him there and that’s it. Rubbish, rubbish. But anyway —
PL: Well, John, is there’s anything else at all that you would like to add?
JW: Well, oh dear me, I could rattle on forever, can’t I? Rattle on forever. No, I’ve been a very lucky chap. I’ve had a great life. I had a super wife, super wife, artist, mother, good looking, prettiest girl, super wife. Sixty-one years, everything. Look at that. She — those are all, my wife did all these. And that one, I always remember that. She did one or two like that in our kitchen, a nice big kitchen, we extended it. And the “Kippers by Candlelight” was the thing.
PL: “Kippers by Candlelight”
JW: It was a bit of fun. She liked doing things like that. And I remember a pal of mine coming in, Robin Lewis, always a bit of a wag, he looked at that and said, ‘Kippers’, he said, ‘don’t they look sexy?’ Do you know, they were known ever since, Audrey’s sexy kippers [laugh]. No reason at all. That’s always Audrey’s painting. It was Audrey’s sexy kippers [laugh].
PL: Well that sounds a very good note to end on, the sexy kippers.
JW: The sexy kippers. Well anything you want you can always give me a ring, anything, anytime. Would you like another cup or tea or biscuit or anything?
PL: I’d love one. Thank you so much.
JW: No. [laugh]
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John Whitworth
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWhitworthJL160622
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
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Pam Locker
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-06-22
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01:21:44 audio recording
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Christine Kavanagh
Vivienne Tincombe
Description
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John Leslie Whitworth was born in Sutton Coldfield. Signed up for the Royal Air Force in 1940, finally being called up for service in 1941, before starting his training at the Initial Training Wing in Torquay, followed by more training at RAF Sywell in Northamptonshire. John was posted to RAF Moreton on the Marsh, which was a feeder station for the Wellington bomber crews, and he tells of meeting a lifelong friend called Brian Hurd, who was his navigator. John reminisces of his overseas posting to Egypt, to 37 Squadron at Abu Suweir, and flying over Gibraltar where he describes his first sighting of flak. John tells of his sadness of the death of his close friend, and also of his crash into the desert, after the Wellington he was piloting lost a propeller, his journey across the desert, and his subsequent rescue. Retells the story of a South African Air Force Boston which crashed into parked aircraft at Abu Suier in August 1942. Tells of his posting to a Wellington Instruction Unit, his training at RAF North Luffenham, and his love of golf. In September 1944, John volunteered to go back on operations, and was assigned to 142 Squadron flying Mosquitos working with the Pathfinder force, before being transferred to 162 Squadron, before finally being posted to ferrying Mosquitos to India. John completed two full tours with Bomber Command and was into his third when the Second World War ended. After the war, John became involved in his brother-in-law’s Engineering Manufacturing business, which he took over when his brother in law died.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Devon
England--Northamptonshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Rutland
England--Torquay
Egypt
Gibraltar
India
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942-08
1944-09
142 Squadron
162 Squadron
37 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
Boston
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
grief
Initial Training Wing
Mosquito
navigator
Pathfinders
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Sywell
RAF Torquay
sport
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/174/2336/ABellJR160130.2.mp3
517b7df7cbd17f49be62471569c7dc8f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bell, John Robert
J R Bell
John Robert Bell
Jack Bell
John R Bell
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history with John Robert "Jack" Bell. He was a Royal Australian Air Force wireless operator/air gunner and flew with 216 Squadron, RAF Transport Command from Heliopolis, near Cairo. Jack Bell was shot down and became a prisoner of war in Italy and Germany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bell, JR-AUS
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-30
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: So this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive is with Jack Bell the 216 Squadron wireless operator, shot down over Libya during World War Two and spent a number of years as a prisoner of war. The interview is taking place at Jack’s home in Surrey Hills in Melbourne. My name is Adam Purcell it is the 30th of January 2016. So Jack, might as well start with the early stuff if you don’t mind. Tell me something about your early life growing up, what you did before the war.
JB: Well I was born in 1917 and of course when I went to school it was the period of what was called the Great Depression which in both the UK and Australia the unemployment was about rating 30 per cent. And to look for a job, I tramped the streets of Brisbane for two and a half months without success, and my Sunday School bible teacher worked at a company called DMW Murray and he rang my mother to say send him, send Jack in straight away, and I was one of about twenty boys, they were lined up outside this accountant’s office and six of us were told to ‘stand over there’. That’s how I started work and I got, and I got one dollar twenty eight a week, of which I gave a dollar to my mother and two, two, twenty eight cents half of that was rail fare and the rest was mine to spend. We worked from eight thirty in the morning to quarter twenty, a quarter twenty past five and we couldn’t leave the department until we put the wrappers on until the manager left, which could sometimes be quarter to six. Well I struggled through that area and when I turned eighteen I decided I, I wanted to join the military, and so I went into the Australian military forces and an artillery section called the Fourteenth Battery Fifth Field Brigade, which was weekend jobs and sort of once every fortnight on parade and went on bivouacs and camps and I got, came out, finished up being the acting gun sergeant and, with twenty five-pounder guns and I could hit an ant hill, with ranging shots over about three thousand yards over a hill. So when the war broke out we were put into camp in Colander for a month’s camp. I decided I was going to join the air force. The reason being, if I could hit an ant hill over that far away, I’m going to get up in the air where it is more difficult to hit, and the strangest thing about it is all my mates who stayed in the artillery all came back home and I got shot down. Now, I tried to join the air force in Nov- end of November ‘39 and it was, I had to do an adapt, what they called an adaptability course, this was I had to listen to sounds and say yes no, yes no they were the same or not. I failed the course. Eventually I called up in aircrew in May 1945, passed the medical test sufficiently healthy to be a pilot. Well on the 24th of May we were called up and I was told I was a wireless operator air gunner. And the first interview I had was to see if I could do, become a wireless operator. I couldn’t, didn’t pass the test but I am now a wireless operator air gunner. We travelled by train from Brisbane to Benalla. Our initial training there was four weeks before we started and six months later about the end of, middle end of November, we finished our course and I was up to twenty six receiving and twenty four sending in Morse. We were sent to Evans Head to do our gunnery school. Now we had sixteen Fairey Battles which had been sent out from England a lot of them still battered with sh, shell shot holes. There were three of them actually serviceable. I can quite honestly say that my training as an air gunner was two flights in those Fairey Battles over a range, firing a GO gun and I never ever believed I ever even got anywhere near hitting the target, but we all passed out as they so desperately needed aircrew that we were all presented with our air gunners’ badges. And we left Brisbane on the first of Feb and went down by train to Sydney and about two hundred twenty five of us, pilots, navigators and wireless air gunners left on the “Aquitania” to go to Britain. We were going through the Indian Ocean when we were diverted to India. We spent a month in India, then went over to Africa, Port Tawfiq, we went into camp, which we actually erected the tents ourselves, or most of them we did. We stayed there for about six to eight weeks and I was sent to a little place called Helioplis, Heliopolis just outside Cairo to an aerodrome. And because there was not, not sufficient aircraft there, twenty five of us were sent to do a cypher course, which took three weeks I think from memory. Came back, everybody else was posted, I was left there on my own. Little did I know that I had been posted to 216 Squadron which was based on that aerodrome. Until, I didn’t find out until August and the warrant officer in charge came and said ‘Jack’, he said, ‘you should have been with us since May’. I should, how would I- I used to go to the warrant officer in charge and ask, ‘what am I doing, why have I been posted?’ So anyway I finished up on 216 Squadron which was equipped with Vickers Valentias. The Valentia was built in 1922, I’m not quite sure. It was a canvas aircraft, fixed under cart, and the pilot and navigator sat in the outside in the cockpit wearing pith helmets with a windscreen. Now as far as I can remember its top speed was about eighty two miles an hour although from information received it should have been about one hundred and twenty but, from what I understand what we went through, I don’t believe we got more than eighty two miles an hour unless we were going downhill of course, diving. But I do remember one incident that we were passed by a truck on the ground because we were flying into a head wind and we were going up the desert to a little place called Mersa Matruh. It took us nearly three and a half hours to get there and we came back, bringing back a few wounded from the front, which we brought back to Heliopolis. From then I was transferred to a Bristol Bombay, now this aircraft was ninety four foot wingspan and sixty six feet long. It was supposed to do one hundred and eighty miles per hour and the most we ever got it up to was one hundred and thirty two but its cruising speed was about one hundred and twelve. And our function was, bomber transport it had been taken out of bombers as it was only equipped with one GO gun forward and a rear turret, rear turret but if the air gunner sat in the rear turret, the bomb load was dropped and fuel was expended the tail dropped and we lost I think it was eight or ten aircraft that way before we found out that the main spar, had been altered by the ship builders Harland and Wolff to the design of eh, the Bristol Aircraft Company. We were then put on this range of supporting the long range desert group with supplies, fuel and dropping people behind the lines in landing grounds that were given numbers. The strange thing about the long range desert group was that they never would that, that, they, at the landing ground until after we landed, ‘cause they’d stay on the hill and come down, we would take all the stuff out of the aircraft and leave it there on the ground, we would help them load it onto their beach buggies. And they survived in that area in the desert for about six months at a time it was incredible that they, they had very little water. I mean there were a few oases at Dura, Bug and other little places that they managed to get water from. But they were operating from virtually behind the lines doing sabotage work. We also did train the first group of SAS troops that were formed by Captain Stirling, and the principle of the parachuting was that, a thousand feet was the height from which were supposed to be dropped. Which was the official, as I understand it, official height for the air force to, to do. But David Stirling said, ‘no it isn’t we are fully packed with eighty five pound weight, packed and need to do it from five hundred feet’. Well this strange mob, they were all sorts of people as a matter of fact I met Johnnie Gregson afterwards at prison camp. They were hard-nosed and they were tough men, they came from all walks of life through the British army, Palestinians and all types. And they did drop from five hundred feet. Of course it was a static line drop. So as the big sergeant major stood in the door, he pushed them out because the tail plane was so big if he didn’t push them out they would have hit the tail plane as they dropped down and the ‘chute would open and they would drift away. Now I didn’t go on an operation dropping behind the lines but, three of my mates did do and what they did, they had this delayed action little plastic explosives which they always blew off the port wing of the aircraft, never starboard so they couldn’t bastardise it to rebuild the aircraft. Sometimes it took them ten to twelve days to get back, walking back from where they had been dropped. And the stories that they used to tell me on how they walked on bits of rubber off burned-out trucks, their boots were gone and even to some extent they drank their own urine because they didn’t have water. They tried to get water out the old beach buggies and wind-damaged trucks on the way back, and some of them did perish. But in all it was a wonderful experience for a young fellow like me and the worst thing I think I’d ever had to do was we were flying to bring back the wounded from a tank battle at Sidi Rezegh in November 1942, no I am sorry 1941. We landed behind the hill and picked up twenty one stretcher cases. Now if you can imagine, men had been in tanks and those tanks had been hit and burst into flames, how horrific it was to hear those men crying out for water when you knew darned well you couldn’t give them a drink of water. And we did three trips this day, I don’t know how many survived the, the journey, we tried to do the best we could for them but I am sure that over half of them would have died. Now we certainly had our funny sides you know in life, in the desert. For instance there were probably a million flies per square foot, and our meals were generally bully beef and biscuits or goldfish, in other words herrings in tomato sauce. So our skipper used to say, ‘well lets go up for a bit’, and we used to fly around for half an hour and take all this goldfish and all this bully beef with us to cool it down and drop back, and we had to then, the crew, the aircrew would get it all together, grab the food and eat it best they could before the flies got it. We used to play cricket, had good times, we played poker did all sorts of funny things. But it was a very great curve of learning, it taught me tolerance of people, how their behaviour. And this day that we left on the 23rd of January 1942, I’ll never forget it, Tony Carter and I were not in a fixed crew, we were relieving people on different crews. We took off this morning round about eight o’clock, half past eight to fly to place called Msus and, we were taking up a couple of replacement aircrew pilots, some medical supplies and we were to pick up, as we understood it, a section of a brigade headquarters to bring them back. Unfortunately the actual British intelligence was two days behind what the, where the actual front was. So we flew up to Msus we were flying at three thousand feet above the cloud bank and as we approached near Msus we flew down from Derna down toward, Msus is south of Benghazi. Well the escarpment was coming up and we were flying down the escarpment and an echelon of 15th panzer division Afrika Korps boys were coming up to attack into Derna. Well the second pilot categorically stated that we were shot down by a tank which I never, never believe because the ground fire, they had bofors guns the same as we did and their anti-aircraft well, the shells to me were not eighty eight mils that was shot by a tank, they were more by point five. And these point fives rattled across the mainplane and down the centre of the aircraft, killed my mate Tony Carter, who was beside me who was the navigator, broke the leg of, the captain of the aircraft, the second pilot didn’t get a scratch. So ultimately he had to lose his leg the first pilot, and one of the pilots who was in the back, who we were taking up as a replacement he lost an arm and both of them were repatriated back to Britain in August 1942, which was good luck to them. Tony Carter was my friend we didn’t train on the same course, we went away together, we lived together for all that time, and the worse thing I had to do in my life was to go and see his mother after the war in August 1945. He was an heir to one of the largest car dealers in Sydney, Lartney Even Carter, and he was an only son and I can see it even now. I can see his mother looking at me with the belief in her eyes why was it my son and not you and I, I can never forget it. Well I finished up, operated on by a German doctor who incidentally happened to be a Harley Street abdominal specialist. He was one of the reparation doctors sent to England after the First World War and he was a very excellent, ‘are you married, had kids?’ and he told me, ‘they don’t trust me Jack’, he said, ‘I shall never be the boss, I’m only second in charge’, but he said ‘I went to Germany in August ’39’, he said, ‘they wouldn’t let me back’. Now I owe my life to that man and he came to me after about eight or nine days when I was being intravenously fed and he gave me eight vials of morphine. He said, ‘you are going to go to Tripoli’, which is four hundred miles away on the back of a three-ton truck with other wounded. He said ‘I strongly suggest you jab one of these vials into your leg in the morning and one at night time’. Well he did one, he jabbed my leg that morning when we left and unfortunately, that night I didn’t realise, what, actually how I’d be treated getting me off the truck into the little hospital area for the night. Well I was rolled off the stretcher, naturally travelling all day on these unmade roads, pot holes and all sorts of holes and damage, the fourteen stitches, lateral stitches I had were starting to break. So I jabbed myself with one of them morphines and the seepage was starting to come through, come through the bandages. Well the next three days I don’t remember because I made sure I shot myself in the morning and on the night before, before we got off the truck. Now the second phase of my life story is when we arrived at Tripoli we were taken to a hospital, I don’t think it was a prisoner of war hospital, because it was a brick building and I was cared for by a nurse, she would be in her fifties, spoke perfect English. This doctor came and inspected me and he said, eh, she looked after me and dressed me. Now the German doctor put two lateral stitches over the top of my fourteen stitches to hold the wound together, unfortunately every stitch broke. The bandage was just full and whole of my abdomen, my abdominal seal, my skin my stomach was wide open and he said, the doctor said, ‘well we will let nature take its course we haven’t got the facilities to restitch you’. Now that lady brought me a little bowl of pasta to eat and I couldn’t eat it, I couldn’t just eat it and she said, she cleaned me up and she said ‘well look, unless you eat you’ll die’. She went outside and there was a quince tree and she actually picked a quince and cooked it with sugar for me and gave it to me. Now that is the second person, the second, she was the enemy but she fed me that quince, sweetened quince and that was the way I started to eat again. I had very little to eat I was transhipped to Italy on a hospital ship, the “Aquilla”, which was a passenger ship that used to come out to Australia before the war. The matron in charge was Countess Ciano who was Mussolini’s daughter. She was, she made sure that she came and spoke to every prisoner that was in the, in the hold of that ship. We landed at Caserta, at Naples and were sent to Caserta and the doctor there, Major Martin, a British doctor, had nothing. Had no, no medical supplies and he said to me, ‘I can’t do anything I will just have to bandage you up’. Now the food was foreign to me, it was pasta, rice, boiled rice and so forth and they weighed me at the end of February and I weighed six stone four pounds. I was shipped up to a little place called Parma outside Milan for recovery. I sold my wristlet watch for two boxes of chocolates to give to Skippy Palmer who was a lieutenant commander in the Royal Australian navy, he was planning an escape. The silly orderly I sold the watch to showed it round to his mates and the plan, the plot was discovered of course. Now at that stage I could stand and I was bent over, probably about a thirty degree angle and they posted me to a punishment camp. Gravina PG 65, there were probably six hundred in that camp and I was the, the catering officer for the weekend. Now we got, I can’t quite remember which way it went but we got twelve broccoli and eleven cabbage or reversed and a bunch of fennel for six hundred men for two days. The cooks just bashed it all up, all roots and all and just put it into the big copper and heated it up and served it as a brew. Now the death rate in that little camp that I was there for the four weeks, was approximately six a week. They were just, we were starving and one of the fellows there told me that the original camp group was three thousand in Libya and of those three thousand, a thousand had died in the six weeks previous to that time from starvation. I was sent after being at Gravina I was sent up to a little place at Udine which is south of (it), Grupignano is just south of Udine near Trieste under the Dolomite mountains. Terribly cold in winter and hot in summer. The camp was probably two thousand Australians and fourteen hundred New Zealanders with odd Indian and Cypriots and South Af-, Canadians there. Now the life in the camp was if you behaved yourself it was alright, but if anybody caused a misdemeanour of some sort, like talking in the ranks while the count was going on, he wasn’t punished but the lieutenant, or captain in charge, would take six people out of the ranks and put them in a hut, in the jail for a week each. That was their way of punishing you, they didn’t punish the perpetrator. The food was inadequate, we were walking around the camp holding each other up, we were suffering from beriberi. Fortunately some Red Cross parcels did get through and at one time I remember getting one parcel to six men, there was supposed to be one a week per person. But we managed to survive and by the middle of, oh 1943, it was obvious that the Italians, had landed, the British forces had landed in Sicily and come up the, and they were going to give in. So the food improved, everything improved. As a matter of fact we used to play cricket there. I will never forget Sergeant Fitzy Vincent, his grandson played for New Zealand in test cricket, was the skipper of the hut that we played and the food was so (incredible) at that time we bet we would beat that hut, hut number 26 we were in number 32 and we played a cricket team each. Then I took eight wickets for two runs because I, with my stomach all ruptured I could only bowl a slow, slow left hand, right hand off break. And the balls were made out of coir string, because they wouldn’t allow us to have the ordinary cricket, cricket balls and we won the match. We had all the food we could possibly eat it was fantastic. Also played two up, we broke, I broke the bank one day after thirteen straight hits I backed tails for thirteen straight, the week later and Socksy Simon and Coffee Walpole were the runners, they ran the two up school. I had so much of their camp money, I gave it to the hut commander (Nocker) West and said right go and buy up, there was a shop at that time, they were selling bottles of marsala. I forgot how much they were but we got enough that I don’t remember the next twenty four hours. September the 23rd I think it was, Italy capitulated and the British sent messages to say stay where you are, you will be relieved in the next twelve to twenty four hours. The forces were down near Rome and we couldn’t work out how they were going to do that, but the Germans had us surrounded that night and the next day they put us on these cattle trucks to go to Germany. Well it took ten days to get to Stalag IV-B which was a little place called Mühlberg, which was just about on the Elbe River. It was south of Berlin, east of Leipzig and north of Dresden and two miles away was Falkenberg which was a railway centre, absolutely fantastic railway system there. What they didn’t tell us of course was that sixty kilometres away there was the underground factory for getting oil out of coal, it was all underground, which we didn’t learn about for a while but we eventually got to know about it. Now Stalag IV-B was probably at that stage the worst prison camp in Germany. It was thirty two acres and that, when we arrived there it was so full we slept on tents on the parade ground and it was the middle of October. The food was according to the Germans adequate, well it was sufficient to give us about, the doctors worked out about two thousand calories and we needed two thousand two hundred and fifty to keep us alive. Eventually Red Cross parcels did come in I think it was early December we got a Red Cross parcel which helped us immeasurably and it was January before we got into huts. At one time we had thirty five thousand prisoners in this thirty two acres. Now each hut was ten metres wide and thirty metres long, with an ablution block and another hut thirty metres long and ten metres back. We had four blocks of two in our compound, we had about two thousand one hundred, two thousand two hundred prisoners there. Our particular hut, we organised, coming up from Italy, we had a system organised in eating food, that you had a numbering system. You took your place in a queue if there was a hundred in the queue you took up ninety eight, ninety nine whatever it was but you remembered the one before you, the one after you and each day you went out and got that. Because at the end of, out of these big huge dixies they used to bring in you got half a litre of a scoop out put in. Well at the end there probably might be about enough for another twelve or fourteen to get second half scoops. So they, then they’d move back and those boys would then move up so the next day they’d get their share and it worked very well. A typical, it was either sauerkraut, millet, sugar beet or, well, a gruel of some sort, it could be endives there were all sorts of things in it, a vegetable soup. The Red Cross parcels in Germany were far more frequently issued than they were in Italy, but just enough to keep us going. And some of those parcels of course had particular marks on them. And we didn’t know, or the average prisoner didn’t know that these were sent out, they were actually sent out by MI5 and then there were, escape maps were put under the labels at the top and all that sort of thing hid. And a friend of mine Bennie Royle who was in the camp with me, badly injured, inoffensive looking bloke. He was the assistant man of confidence and I didn’t know until after the war was finished and we came home, what he did. He was on the escape committee and he used to collect that stuff and a man of confidence himself had to really say, no I can’t help escapees because he was the contact between the detaining power and the rest of the British prisoners. If he said, he said he would do something that would mean the camp would be punished so, it was offloaded to Ben and Ben used to get clothing, all sorts of stuff and he’d, they’d move it around, now there’s articles I’ve got, I went to a man of confidence and he wouldn’t do this and he wouldn’t do that. That’s right he didn’t do it, but it was being done and unless you are actually allowed and they’d given permission for you to escape, you couldn’t get anything. Because it had to be well organised because otherwise the actual stretch of supply would be found out. Now as the war continued, the Russians they lost sixty thousand Russians in the winter of 1941-42 when they arrived there from cholera, typhus and their, their death rate we got now our loaf of bread for three of us moved in, one loaf of bread three days, one loaf of bread four days, they got one loaf of bread for seven men for seven days. Their basis was that they couldn’t kill us they had so many prisoners that it didn’t matter, they were on top. Now when the bread parcels, bread trucks used to come in there was a tractor coming, two big carriers behind. It was all squares the camp and the road that come down and the road to turn right to go to the, the actual hut that stored the bread. The Russian boys used to stand all round on these corners any twenty to thirty of them. Now the guard was an old and bold from the First World War and he had a single bolt action rifle. They worked on the surmise he could only get at the most two shots away so they used to jump at these trac-, these trolleys, big truck bases, grab all the food and run. Now some did get killed. I unfortunately witnessed one day with two of my friends, Sandy Jones and Jimmy Edwards, oh a German warrant officer called an oberfeldwebel actually kicked a Russian to death. Stomped on him because he attempted to steal a loaf of bread. We couldn’t do anything, there was the guard standing there with his rifle at the ready, but that oberfeldwebel, I’ve got the facts of the case right here in this room. At the end of the war he was reported to the Russian before, when they came over and relieved us on the 23rd of May and the man of confidence said, gave all the information, ‘we have dealt with him’. In other words he was killed, in fact most of the Nazi party members of their guard system didn’t survive the Russians coming into the camp. We did have escape committees we had, we had tunnels dug. Unfortunately I couldn’t do very much with that. But I could act as eyes, lookout if there was anything. I used to raid the coal shed to get some coal, but Norman again a friend of mine living in Adelaide, he was only a little fellow, he was a wireless operator same as myself. And he used to go down the, down these tunnels and bring the sand, soft sandy soil out and his mate was Gil (Lenshort) who was six foot four and grandson of a German migrant and he was a builder by trade, so he was, he actually lined the tunnels with our bed boards and sheets of ply that came with the Canadian parcels so that people could get through the tunnel. In fact the French prisoners were amazing boys, there were about four thousand I suppose French in the camp. Gil got stuck one day, down, right down from putting a piece of board up on top on top of the bed boards. We were digging under the garden, French garden, the French were gardening there for the Germans to get vegetables and a tomato plant with all the soil dropped down on top of him. Of course we had a leg rope on and he was pulled out but he was black and blue when he got out. Now the French they didn’t say a word they just picked the piece of board up, they came over and they put it in, put the earth back and put another tomato plant back in. They were, they brought to our camp, you (couldn’t), unbelievable what they did. Of course they were given more liberty than we were because the Germans had their families under their control and so you know, but being prisoners for so long they were accepted and they could move round the camp and outside the camp with much ease than what we could. For instance we had a chap named Freddy Ward who was a policeman in New Zealand before the war, and he joined up and I think he was in the 19th Battalion I can’t quite remember I forget which one. But he was in the military police and he was in our camp PG 57 in Grupignano, Northern Italy, but on the way to Germany he escaped out of one of the, one of the trucks. Got to Croatia or Yugoslavia of course as it was then, and he did his bit. From what we were told he was, he was finally captured by the Germans and arrested, to be court marshalled, but he had killed five German soldiers. Now he was brought into the camp, a funny thing about the Germans at this stage you didn’t, weren’t sent into camp dirty and dishevelled, you had to be washed and cleaned, your uniform cleaned and you looked like a proper soldier to go in. So the word came out, walk round the compound, out everybody out, this was Bennie Royle and his mates organising this. I only knew one French POW named Pierre, I can’t remember his surname, but he was a nice fellow. They went into the shower block to shower, took a spare uniform with them. When Freddie came out of the showers he mingled with the French prisoners, they dressed him as a French prisoner of war and he walked out back to their hut like that and came into our compound. Was hidden in the ceiling of one of the huts by the New Zealand contingent on the camp, and the Gestapo put a watch in the camp in one of the huts. And he stayed every day there was a fellow there watching on the proviso they reckoned that one day he’ll walk past that window and we’ll get him. Well he walked past that window many, many times. Never was found we used to wave to the bloke as we moved, we’d go to soccer matches we waved and Freddie waved and talked and smiled. Course, he would lay under a little bed and got, a different hairstyle, he wore glasses, well he didn’t, put nothing in them, just the frames and you know the French were able to do that. Now the strangest thing that happened which I never knew about until 1983. There was a fellow in the hut number 32 I was in 32b, that’s right 32b, I was in 34b. Named Barrington, Winston Barrington he was a pilot. Now he was holidaying in Europe prior to the first, prior to the beginning of war with his mother, and in August ‘39 they were in Austria and his wife, his mother got very sick. So when war broke out, being in Austria he was allowed to leave and he went back to England but his mother was left in this hospital. And, Winston got trained as a pilot came in, got shot down, finished in IV-B and course the Red Cross advised the parents eventually where their son were, was. So she, in 1944, yes would be ‘44 she wrote to the, she found out that he was in our camp. She wrote to the hut, the compound commander IV-B. IV-B commander, he was a nice enough bloke he was a Wehrmacht boy he wasn’t a Nazi or Gestapo. And he gave permission for her to come to the camp and see her son. So she moved to Mühlberg and took a place, a room or something in the little village there and stayed, stayed there and every two weeks she was allowed to come in. They were met in the, outside the actual camp in the German camp area in [indistinct word]. Now that lady in November, end of October I think it was, it could have been November I think it was the end of October. The escape committee decided, Hitler made a statement that all POWs were going to be shot and all this sort of thing so, I feared for her life because she was a foreigner living in Mühlberg so, she was certainly being watched by the local police and that sort of thing but, they decided they would bring her in the camp. Now, the French POWs again, they took a uniform with them and they’d, each working day, went to work every day went to work they would drop a piece of this off in to this lady. And the final day came and it had to be done so, as you went out of the camp you were counted, so they doubled and they had one extra out of the camp so they would cover the one extra coming back in. Being in fives you can do that, but in threes, it is very difficult but the Germans march in fives, so put four in or put six in it’s still five, five, three four. So they brought this lady in, Florence Barrington. Now, John Bailey lived in that same hut 32b he was the secretary of the Mühlberg motor club that we had and he didn’t know and she lived in that hut and he didn’t know until they were relieved on the 26th of May, when they were taken out on trucks, that she was in that hut. There were six men knew in that hut that she was there. The French knew but they didn’t say anything, they were remarkable, remarkable the French prisoners. And she was guarded now in the finish I was told, I’ve got it all here she would go on parade and answer, yeah, to her name. Now, in 1983 she went to the Edinburgh POW meeting there the annual meeting and showed up. Everybody was surprised and her story went right round Great Britain in different newspapers her story was published and that lady lived there from Nov-, early November ’44 right through to the end of, the end of the war, incredible, incredible. Well there is not much else I can say, I can tell you a lot of stuff but the [laughs].
AP: That’s your story in a nutshell.
JB: That’s enough I think well, to this day I don’t believe we were shot down by a tank but, of course as a POW the story gets around you know. ‘Oh he was shot down by a tank’, and it became fact but it’s fiction.
AP: Yes
JB: It’s typical
AP: You tell a story often enough you start believing it.
JB: Well course that’s right yes.
AP: I do have a couple more of more specific questions I would like to get to but, the word came back to here I’m getting a bit loud. Anyway I’ll carry on. What I’m interested in, you never actually got to the UK did you?
JB: Only after the war.
AP: Only after the war so you were sort of on a boat going in that direction?
JB: We were under Bomber Command’s umbrella but we were in the Middle East and were just a Bomber transport section.
AP: Okay. So you said you were not in a particular crew, you were sort of an odd job.
JB: Well there were two of, there’s the, they were regular crews, but normally speaking in a transport group there is the pilot and navigator, wireless operator, or that’ll be (Ben) but, people get sick, you know, so we were sort of, ‘we’ll take your place today’ and will be there somewhere else tomorrow, we had, plenty of work, every day there was somewhere you went, we used to go to Cyprus, all round the place. But the flights were pretty short you know, two, two and a half hours and back. But we were coming back one day [laughs] from somewhere we had landed at -. In the distance we could see an Italian Bomber going one way we were going the other [laughs]. We were strafed by an ME109 one day we were damned lucky, we were damned lucky we were on the ground.
AP: What did you think of the, em, you know the first time you saw one of these Vickers Valentia beasts, well what was your impression? ‘What have they given me?’
JB: Well, I don’t know whether you have ever seen it, out at Tullamarine they had the Vickers Vimy that the Smith brothers, well that’s virtually what it was, that plane there. There was the Vickers Victoria, the Vimy and the Vickers Victoria which had a skid at the back and a fixed undercart. Now these were canvas and five hundred horse power motors. Then they made the Valentia which had a wheel at the back and we can [laughs], ah now well. But look, we had what aircraft what we had seen? We’d seen an Avro Anson, a Fairey Battle and that’s about all when we left Australia and out of those two hundred and twenty five odd blokes only thirty six came back anyway. Now the turnover of pilots, of forty pilots thirty eight were killed, twelve came back nine of which were prisoners of war you know. It’s, but the Vickers Valentia was like a bus [laughs] oh dear. All [?] you start your (landing) and we had to carry a fitter, rigger a fitter to wire up and a rigger to take the, all the (scissors) off the ailerons [laughs] flaps [laughs].
AP: It sounds to me that it wouldn’t have been a particularly reassuring aircraft in which to go to war.
JB: No not at all, but we didn’t know any better, I mean that was the, grateful you went there you know, you’re flying for the King and Empire, it was just accepted.
AP: The bomb bay then was that a step up or-?
JB: It was a step up but let’s be honest. I mean it was a huge thing, underpowered it only carried eight two hundred and fifty pound bombs. What’s that, it’s nothing and to drop them indiscriminately because the bomb aimer, the actual bomb aiming apparatus we had was so old you know. And the air gunner and the fitter and rigger used to throw out twenty five pound anti-personnel bombs out of the flare path, flare chute indiscriminately they said they didn’t know where they are, didn’t know. They sent us on these useless missions they were taken out of service they were just useless, absolutely useless [laughs].
AP: How did you find, after your experience of, you know you being shot down and badly injured as you told and, you go through all the, the three years as a prisoner, em coming back to Australia would have been a bit interesting I imagine. How did you find re-adjusting to civilian life?
JB: Very difficult, I couldn’t get over the squeaky noise the women made. I mean see, living amongst men for three and a half years and there wasn’t any WAAF in the air force when I went away. I only saw one WAAF the whole time before I was shot down, that was a wing commander on an advance party to Egypt to bring the WAAFs out to Egypt that was in I think November, December ’41, something like that. When I got back to England and we were put into these barracks in, in, where did we go to, oh, I’ll think what I meant, time lapse, Brighton. All, all the girls there were WAAFs and they were cooking and they were serving you and they were yap yap yap, and this high-pitched voice, we couldn’t attune to it, it was incredible. Well I must admit the British public they were hard, gee they were hard, hard pressed but by golly were they good to us. You know I mean I was given, when I went, when I got back the fellow said, ‘how much money?’ ‘Oh give me ten pound’, he said, ‘I’ll see you in the morning, I said, ‘no this will last me the week I’m a-’. He saw me the next morning [laughs]. ‘Cause I bought a pound of grapes that cost me thirty shillings, I went to a, to dinner and I ordered up and it cost me eight pounds and I was broke [laughs] I had a couple of beers and I was broke [laughs]. But when I went with one of my boys from the hut where I was living in Heliopolis, I was the hut commander and he was one of the fittest on the squadron, he actually lived in Brighton, we managed to meet each other and his wife was living there and they only had rooms that were in a building. And so I said ‘oh’, she said, ‘I’ve got to go and get some shopping, I’ve got to go and get the rations’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘I’ll come with you’, because I never saw what the rations were like or anything you know. So I went into the fish shop and of course I had a brand new uniform on, you know, everything brand new. And then, we got standing in the queue and this fishmonger said, ‘lass come up’, he said, ‘who’s that’? She said, ‘he’s a prisoner of war, he’s a friend of my husband’s’. They gave her on my behalf double ration, free. Now, and the people clapped around and for me and I’m in tears, it’s hard to, to accept that, it feels sort of, this is [unclear], to think that. Oh, they were really wonderful people, they were, excellent, they were good.
AP: What was the reception like back in Australia, when you went to your home?
JB: Well, being not so well, when I got back to Australia we came back on the “Orion” through the Panama Canal and got into Sydney. And my company that I worked for, DMW Murray, had arranged for me to go to them that day to stay there. So I wasn’t with the whole group of people that came back to Brisbane. Eh I came back two days later so they went to march through the city. And of course the reception wasn’t like it was for the Japanese boys the next month because don’t forget we had been out of prison in May 1945 and didn’t sail home until August. Now we were all fat looking, all well dressed, didn’t look as though we were prisoners of war at all and the reception was, wasn’t too great. Now I was told, ‘why did I go to Europe to fight’? Now the bloody war in Japan hadn’t even, I mean, you know we went to the RSLs to join up and they said we will have to put you on a list because it was like a hundred people trying to fit into this house. It was just all these things that we had to accept and live with, try and live back again to get back to normal. It took me years to get back to normal. My wife can tell you, you know at night time I didn’t know what I was doing but I was thrashing around, kicking about and moaning and she said I still do it. But you know I don’t know that I do it but, it took a long, long time a long time, a long time, ehm.
AP: You em, you mentioned before we actually started that you give talks and obviously from the way you have told me your story here obviously you do this fairly often [laughs], are you pretty good at it?
JB: Well, I got more of the stuff there that I still haven’t told you of what has happened in the camp and that sort of thing, but I couldn’t talk, I wrote that story it’s not, it’s full. I told stuff that doesn’t appear in it. But it was the greatest thing that I ever did because it released me from not knowing, it was out, it was out in the world somewhere and it enabled me to talk to people that weren’t old enough to go to the war and wanted to know what happened in the war. Of course 1987, 1990 we’re talking forty years later so it wasn’t so bad, but the number of people I talk to it’s amazing you know, incredible. I mean I, I got stuff there that when Warsaw fell they brought in twelve hundred women, all Jewish girls of course, and they came to our camp now they were just picked up of the streets and put in these cattle trucks and brought in. They had nothing, just what they, not a handkerchief, not a, when they appeared at the camp they had nothing, and Pat (Noughty] who was from Western Australia and he actually married one of those girls. They exchanged addresses and he was the go-between. We got handkerchiefs, underpants, singlets and stuff and gave it to them. And, one of them must have survived because Pat married her, I don’t know what happened about it but, a month, two weeks later a group of boys came in from eight to eighteen you can imagine them eight to eighteen. These kids used to run round through the sewers of course, to bring messages to the, they went, they finished up in Dachau I doubt if any one of them back. But in our camp at the end of the war, I can never get this, twelve women came into the camp. I don’t know if you ever seen the Nazi guard for the Jewish prisoners with their grey and white full length like nightgown with a sort of [?] but terrible things. Twelve women came in, they were actually picked up off the railways by a couple of British boys that got out and found them down there. And they, where they slept, they slept in the signal box. No beds, bare foot, and that shroud, no underwear. So we brought them back of course we had taken over the hospital, our doctors had taken over the hospital and they were put to bed. Three of them got out of the bed and lay on the floor, they couldn’t sleep, couldn’t stay. Now how many survived, we know that some died, we don’t know how many, but true I saw them come in and there was not, there was no, what there was just sunken bone, shocking to see, shocking to see. I tell people that they, you know phew, I get so emotional but I am doing it for a purpose because we have twelve hundred widows of POWs living in Australia we only have three hundred and forty POWs left something like that might be a few bob each way. And the reason I don’t take anything I say, no I want a donation given to the POW society, and it has helped them because without people, without getting money you can’t function, you can’t function.
AP: Any closing thoughts, your, your service in general, your, your-.
JB: Well look, to say I enjoyed it all, it’s not right but look. I think it is an experience I would never ever do without but I wouldn’t wish it upon anybody to do it. But look it taught me tolerance; it taught me respect, understanding of other nations. See we had over thirty different nationalities in our camp. You get along, and you have to get along. It’s the same as our Society today we’re getting on. There’s always these bad apples, I mean they’re everywhere you can’t do anything about that but, it taught me you know, I welcome the people that live here, now that’s good. I’m glad that there here, it’s a big country.
AP: It certainly is.
JB: Only I wish the government would do something about our, proper structure, our railways, not roads, railways and transport, never mind.
AP: We won’t get into that I think.
JB: No don’t get into that.
AP: Anyway, all right if ah, that’s pretty well most of the questions, everything else you have pretty well covered or it doesn’t fit in with your service so, thank you very much.
JB: Thank you, thank you Adam.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Jack Bell
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Bell joined the Royal Australian Air Force as a wireless operator/air gunner and joined 216 Squadron, at Heliopolis, near Cairo. He flew in Valentia and Bombay aircraft in a transport role. On an operation over Libya, his aircraft was shot down by ground fire and he was badly injured. He was transported to Italy, on a hospital ship. He spent time in a prisoner of war camp at Parma and was then transferred to a punishment camp, PG 65 at Gravina. After an escape plot was discovered, he was moved to PG 57 at Grupignano near Udine. When Italy capitulated, Bell was transferred to Stalag IV-B near Mühlberg in Germany. Here he spent the rest of the war. He discusses his experiences of camp life, including smuggling Florence Barrington into the camp as her son was imprisoned there. Jack Bell was repatriated to Great Britain in 1945 and then returned to Australia. He discusses his difficulties of adapting to civilian life.
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-30
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Phil Crossley
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:57:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABellJR160130
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Australian Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Egypt
Libya
Italy
Italy--Udine
Germany
Italy--Grupignano
Germany--Mühlberg (Bad Liebenwerda)
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1944
1945-05
216 Squadron
aircrew
Battle
escaping
Holocaust
prisoner of war
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/254/3401/AFisherLS150814.1.mp3
92f6b8ab71b7b2ca626a670b285dd0e0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Fisher, Laurence Sidney
Laurence Sidney Fisher
Laurence S Fisher
Laurence Fisher
L S Fisher
L Fisher
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Laurence Sidney Fisher (1091186 Royal Air Force).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Fisher, LS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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SB: This is Sheila Bibb interviewing Laurence Fisher on 14th of August 2015 at his home in Canterbury. Laurence, to start off with can you just give me some general background to family life, where you were born, and how you came to join the RAF?
LF: I was born in Peterborough which was then the Soke of Peterborough and a friend of ours was a pilot in the RAF in France and came to stay overnight when he was travelling and I was in the Home Guard as a lance corporal and he advised us to volunteer for the air force so my friends and I went over to Northampton where we volunteered in advance of being called up. One of the options open to me was armourer. I wanted to be air crew but I was colour blind and as an armourer I needed some colour vision but not sufficient to bar me. When I was posted to the Middle East to Number 4 Re-Arming And Refuelling Unit but that in fact was left at 235 Wing which was at Sidi Barrani where I volunteered for air crew because I knew that they wouldn’t have the colour book and my colour test was map colours which I’d learned at school, the colour of a royal sovereign pencil which was bright scarlet and the colour of the orderly’s hair which was bright ginger so I was sent back to South Africa and trained there for about a year when we were required for first priority in the Middle East. So we were flown up the middle of Africa and stopped at Ndola in Northern Rhodesia as it was then where I was able to call in on friends who came back in their little car with the golf clubs in the back. Seeing me on their veranda said, ‘Whatever you do don’t tell daddy we’ve been golfing on a Sunday.’ So we flew on. Landed at Kisumu. Then on to Cairo where we were divided into two halves and our half was sent straight to the squadrons. I flew via El Adem to Naples where we had the pleasure of staying in a marble hotel and sleeping on marble isn’t ideal. Then on to Foggia. Now, 167 squadron was an elite squadron. The day after we left them they dropped arms to the insurgent Poles in Warsaw but to return to my story we didn’t like the idea of being sent back without doing any operations so I was deputed to go to the flight commander and, but I persuaded him to let us have the COs aircraft. The first op we did went well and we attacked Verona martialling yards. The second night we were sent out in bright moonlight to attack the Weibersbrunn German fighter station and they didn’t like it much but on our return we were jumped by a radar guided ME109 and its cannon fire and other armaments soon killed half of the crew but fortunately the aircraft was flying on George and so there was an opportunity to get out. Now of course I hadn’t been fitted into my parachute harness so I folded my arms across my chest and just hoped for the best and of course as the chute opened my arms were flung to one side. As I went down I was rotating in the air and could see the aircraft on fire gliding into a, a clearing between two stands of trees which stripped the burning wings off and put out the fire but by that time I was rather close to the ground because jumping from two thousand feet is not ideal and I guided myself in to the middle of a potato patch but a strong wind at ground level coming up the mountain blew me into a pine tree where I fell horizontally, breaking a branch with my shoulder and my head so that my flying helmet was full of blood. I had a look in my evasion kit but felt that the odds were too much against me particularly as I’d got rather loose flying boots on so I made the decision to go to the farmhouse and on my knocking at the door they opened a little flap and offered me seeded bread and some milk. I accepted these but I showed them the blood on my hand from my bleeding head and they let me in and sent for the landmacht so I met up with two other members of my crew in the police station the following morning. And then from Graz we were taken to Vienna by rail in a very crowded train and then on to the lens factory which was next door to the prisoner of war reception centre and there we were kitted out and sent off to Bankau in Upper Silesia by train. Cattle trucks of course. That was fine as far as it went but the Russian advance meant that we had to be moved so we were marched two hundred and fifty miles via the outskirts of Breslau to Cottbus just outside Berlin and there the camp contained Southern Irishmen who were all Welsh Guards. Naturally being Irish they’d be in the Welsh Guards and they were very good to us indeed. Gave us free, things that normally they would have charged cigarettes for. In the end we were liberated by the Russians and on the Americans giving the Russians the lorries we were transported to the River Elbe where we walked over a narrow footbridge with rather itching backs out of the Russian zone into the American zone where Lancaster bombers were used to fly us back to Oxford.
SB: Very good. What were your feelings when, when you were handed over to the police etcetera?
LF: When I was handed over to the police I had injured my foot slightly and was limping so I was left in the police station guarded by a landmacht and the other two members of the crew were taken off to the site of the crash where they saw the flight engineer lying on the ground. He had landed with the aircraft, probably in his seat and the impact had broken his neck. He didn’t know this, climbed out of the aircraft, walked a few paces and then fell dead and that was, that was a very sad thing really. My South African navigator, bomb aimer didn’t want the Germans to know that he could speak German so my school boy German came in to recover the pencil his wife had given him that the Germans had taken away with all the rest of our possessions. Then we were put into a German air, air force camp where we were all confined to one room and anything remaining of our aircrew equipment was taken away from us. We were rather afraid of not having sufficient clothing because we were in tropical kit but we were well equipped at Breslau by the, by the Red Cross. Yeah.
SB: It’s interesting there you mention the Red Cross. Had you had any other dealings with them earlier in the war or not?
LF: No.
SB: That was the first time.
LF: We had had no dealings with them earlier in the war but of course when we were prisoners of war we subsisted on Red Cross parcels and they arrived regularly until the RAF bombed the rail system so much that it broke down and we didn’t get any more. That lasted for about the last two months or three months of our captivity. We were fed as troops in barracks which meant a pint of so-called soup a day which was mainly cabbage and a slice of bread. That, that was the entire ration the consequence of which was I, a normal eight stone came back home weighing only five stone. During that time, during the march I was turned out of a straw field barn at gunpoint because it was too full according to the German regulations and had to sleep on an upper floor in chaff. Now, if you bury yourself in chaff it can kill you and I knew this so I was careful but during the night the temperature fell very low and I received what I think is called frost nip so that a certain disability exists but apart from that I, being young of course, survived far better than some of the older members.
SB: Did you, you say you had schoolboy German. Did you have any problems with communicating at all? Or -
LF: We were not allowed to learn German during our captivity. Although some people learned Italian. Learning German was considered a collaboration with the enemy but most of our goons who walked about among us spoke quite good English and I asked one what he was going to do after the war to which he replied, ‘Watch you rebuilding Berlin.’ That never happened fortunately.
SB: Did you have any idea how things were going?
LF: Ah. As among air crew there are wireless operators who could also make wireless sets in our camps we had several wireless sets and we got daily bulletins broadcast by the BBC which were read out to us. During one of these sessions a German officer came into the barrack to find about three hundred men standing stock still and silent which must have surprised him but of course the newsreader was warned of his coming and we soon began a normal buzz of conversation until he had gone when we listened to the rest of the news bulletin which included the American capture of Iwo Jima I remember.
SB: How did that affect you?
LF: Well we were certain. Well, our morale was high. Bear in mind this was 1944/45 and we received orders from London that we were not to try to escape because that would simply clutter things up unnecessarily but our morale was high because we could see that it was obvious that we were winning the war. We were lucky that we did. [laughs]
SB: Were there times that you wondered how long you’d be there?
LF: Well in those circumstances you live one day at a time because the need to know is one of the things that stops you learning a great deal about your fellows and telling them anything much about yourself so we had card schools. I myself taught English composition in the camp school. One of my friends took banking exams through the Red Cross until that was cut off but every day of course we always did a certain routine amount of walking in order to keep fit and that was an essential part of it and one thing, it passed the time and another thing it enabled us to remain fit enough to survive.
SB: Were there many outbreaks of illness at all?
LF: No. There were very few. We had a medical officer and his sole medical kit consisted of aspirin. The Germans themselves were very short of medications and their people fared no better than we did but I think our limited diet was a very healthy one and of course Breslau was in Southern Poland so that it was a fairly isolated camp on sandy soil which is obviously well drained. Chosen by the Germans because it was difficult to tunnel in and so mostly being young men we were very healthy.
SB: Going back to your time before you were actually captured, when you, first of all you said you were in Egypt. How long were you there for?
LF: I was there for a matter of a few weeks really. About two or three months because it was the time Rommel was approaching El Alamein and so although we were at Sidi Barrani which is 05 which is five kilometres from Alexandria I think we weren’t very far into the blue. We were moved back to a holding camp at Kasfareet and our unit, Number 5 Re-Arming and Refuelling Party was disbanded as being no longer needed. My experience of Kasfareet was of a padre wanting to involve me in Christmas celebrations upon which I told him that by Christmas I should be in South Africa of which he was rather envious.
SB: And when you got to Foggia what did you think of that as a place? At that time?
LF: Foggia was an enormous, ancient crater the whole of which had been turned into an airfield as far as I could tell. There were American squadrons as well as British squadrons there. As our stay there was so brief and as our tents were on the outskirts of the occupied zone I really know very little about it because when I arrived back I arrived back in the middle of the night of course so if you miss the [Garry?] taking you back to quarters you just didn’t know which way to walk. [laughs]
SB: So how long were you in Foggia before the fateful mission?
LF: I think we were there about a fortnight in all. Yes. [laughs]
SB: A short sweet stay then.
LF: Yes, that’s right.
SB: Right. If we think then to once you were brought back to Oxford what happened at that stage?
LF: Well, we were, when we were brought back to Oxford we were kept hanging about until it was getting dark at night when we were directed to our billets but the director had a sense of humour because in common with other flights we were directed to the WAAF billets and disturbed those poor girls in the middle of the night. They were able to direct us to our proper billets in no uncertain terms. So having, we were then disbursed to re-arming, to rehabilitation camp and I was there until I gained weight and until they were reasonably sure that there was nothing physically wrong with me. The whole experience took about two months and it was a really excellently run and excellently organised piece of work. After that we were taken around various firms which might lead to employing us but none of that was of any use to me as it happened.
SB: So when you were finally given the all clear where did you go and what did you do?
LF: Ah. After, after rehabilitation I was sent on ninety days leave and fortunately while I’d been a prisoner of war I’d still been paid so I had ninety pounds which was a lot of money in those days and I was able to go home and then think about what a future career might hold. I had the opportunity of remaining in the RAF but as a peace loving person I didn’t see I had a role in a fighting force in peacetime.
SB: So what career did you take up in the end?
LF: Ah I trained as, in emergency training in teaching and ended up at Christchurch College in Canterbury training teachers. Fortunately, I was able to take early retirement three or four years before I was sixty five and before I was quite outdated as far as the students were concerned.
SB: During your time in Italy and then in Germany and so on were you still able to get news from home at all from the family?
LF: I can’t recall having more than one or two letters from home but I wrote regularly. That I became quite used to. Nor did I receive any parcels from home as longer term prisoners did. Some prisoners had been in the cage for five years so the lines of communication had become established but as we were a newly formed camp just for air crew no lines of communication got established for us and we were lucky to get the Red Cross parcels that came. They were, you know, a valuable communication themselves although of course they received, they had no messages in them but the fact that they were the sorts of food we were used to was very important.
SB: So what did those parcels contain? Can you remember?
LF: Mostly, they were, the ones we received were American so we had a tin of Klim which is perhaps an anagram for milk, a tin of meat, a bar of chocolate which the Germans removed because they said it might be used in an attempt to escape. I don’t know whether the chocolate escaped eating but there was a pack, a pack of tea and very valuable to the Polish among us [vitaminski pilioul?] which were quite palatable but not very high food value and of course butter or margarine and the margarine was called Oleomargarine and I think oleo stands for oil. Tasted rather like that too. We used to trade with the Germans because cigarettes were also contained in the parcels and so was soap. Now those were very valuable commodities and we traded soap with the goons and once we’d traded with them we could report them and this would have led to dire consequences for them so that enabled us to build up trade and we got a certain amount of loaves of bread. The well organised among the escape committee got other things that would be useful in escape and one man even got a camera with some film but that cost a lot of cigarettes but we had a good supply of cigarettes and they were a powerful tool in trading with the Germans.
SB: So you’ve talked about the physical aspects of this. The injuries and the weight loss etcetera. How did you feel emotionally and mentally?
LF: When you’re on such a low diet you tend just to exist. Emotionally you kept on a very even keel because to be emotional cost effort. One of the things I did was to get hold of some Red Cross wool and needles and to re-finger a pair of gloves which were very useful in the German winter. But we had, we organised regular discussions and one of those I contributed to was to do with space travel in which I happened to be very interested. Of course our knowledge of space travel in those days was very limited indeed and one of the things I remember saying was that astronauts would have to have magnetic boots which I don’t think is the case. We also got the medical officer to talk about sex and his briefing was that he should tell us about the birds and the bees but he didn’t spend long on that fortunately [laughs]. But the school also occupied time and cooking for ourselves on the stoves in each barrack room with the potatoes from our soup was another occupation and also keeping the fire going with pieces of wood from our bed rolls but the time didn’t pass too slowly because there were card games and other games supplied by the Red Cross which were available.
SB: You mention the school. Who were you teaching there?
LF: Well, many of the men hadn’t taken more than elementary education and they wanted to keep their standards up in order to take exams either through the Red Cross if there was time or when they got back into England again so as a time passer the school was really very popular and it covered quite a wide range of subjects according to the qualifications of fellow prisoners of war but I, again, in the need to know, I only knew about the English section and a friend of mine took English grammar but he didn’t want to do English composition but I got sufficient paper from the man of confidence to enable those of my class which consisted of about fifteen men to write essays which I then criticised.
SB: Taking that on a bit further did the men actually write about their experiences or did they just write about things in general?
LF: Of course we were limited in to the subjects of composition and we stuck to the sort of compositions that would have been set in an English school. Nothing about their war service. Nothing about camp conditions. Nothing that could have been of possible use to the Germans had they seen it so that the compositions were rather literary really.
SB: Did they appreciate it?
LF: Oh the school was very popular. Very popular indeed and of course in those circumstances the authority of the teacher doesn’t always count for much. It was very much a matter of cooperation so that you can’t give orders as you can in an ordinary school. [laughs]This experience came, became quite valuable later in life when I taught adults.
SB: So, what, for you, was the highlight of your war experience?
LF: I think the highlight was knowing that the raid in which I had been involved had helped the Americans to reduce the output of the Ploiesti oilfields by about a third and the constant raids kept the oil down to that figure and while we were on the march from Breslau to Cottbus we passed a German tank of the latest mark stuck in a village, run out of a fuel and that again was heartening although we were careful not to show our appreciation to our German guards who were a bit touchy and didn’t like the idea of the march very much. The farms that we were quartered in were very limited in the amount of stock they had and they had to account for everything of course but we made sure they were a few chickens short by the time we left and they were very fed up because they knew they’d be paid for any damage we did in deutschmarks which wouldn’t hold their value very long.
SB: How long did the march take?
LF: The march was about two hundred and fifty miles and took three weeks. We had at the rear of the column, pulled along by those of us who were fitter than others a flat, a flat wheeled vehicle for those who just couldn’t walk any further and among those was the rear gunner of one of my opos who had hurt his back on coming down by parachute and he went into a German hospital because he could no longer stand the conditions. I wonder what happened to him?
SB: How many actually survived your crash?
LF: Half my crew were killed. Yes. The pilot I think was killed outright and so was the upper gunner. And the rear gunner, the navigator, bomb aimer and myself came down by parachute. The flight engineer I’ve already described. Probably broke his neck, got out of the aircraft and fell down dead as soon as he tried to turn his head which is what can happen apparently.
SB: You said two of them were sent on ahead of you because you’d hurt your feet, your foot when you -
LF: Yes.
SB: Were taken so did you catch up with them at all later?
LF: Yes. They were returned to the police station and of course the rear gunner and myself went to one camp but the navigator, being an officer went to an offlag and we saw no more of him.
SB: Did you have any contact with them after it was all over?
LF: I wrote to him because he was a South African mining engineer but I never got a letter back again.
SB: And thinking back now to your family when you finally got back how much had they been aware of what was happening?
LF: They’d received my letters but none of theirs had got through to me and I think they were very relieved to see me back especially as I was placed on double rations and had two ration books. When I got married, before rationing ended that didn’t allow me two wives. [laughs]
SB: Good try [laughs]. So if you think back over the whole, the war and your time afterwards how did your involvement in the war affect your later life? Or didn’t it?
LF: Well I think having seen so much of the world and such a variety of people with whom I had to get on when I was sitting the examination in armament for air crew having been an armourer I knew the Browning machine gun very well and in my examination answer mentioned a part that the examiner didn’t know of but he found it and as a consequence I was put to lecturing to other members of the flight who hadn’t done so well on the Browning gun by the armament officer and also to taking a group of Polish airmen who needed help in learning about armament and I think this led to my promotion from sergeant to flight sergeant within twenty two days which made me senior man which isn’t always uncomfortable, which isn’t always comfortable in the groups I was in but the Polish airmen when it came to the exam said they just couldn’t understand the questions which was very sensible of them. My experience of lecturing to the other members of my flight had followed my promotion in the Home Guard because I lectured to those who didn’t know, from a First World War army manual which I was given on armament. Ok.
SB: Yeah. So it seems to me that throughout your career at some point you ended up lecturing.
LF: [laughs] Yes.
SB: So it was perhaps natural that you went on -
LF: That’s right.
SB: To take that as a career.
LF: Yes. Yes I think that’s very likely. Yes. Always have had the gift of the gab I think.
SB: And do you think it had any impact on your family life when you married and had your own family?
LF: Well I think when you’ve been through near death experiences it concentrates the mind on the essentials of life and in bringing up my own children I’ve tried to look ahead to taking account what their qualities were, what they would be likely to be fitted for and my second son, he became a computer expert and my daughter became a social worker so that I think they followed in keeping to the basics of life as well.
SB: And you say your, one son was an MOD worker.
LF: Yes. Yes he was an electronics engineer in the Ministry of Defence. My daughter was first of all involved in Southwark, which isn’t the easiest place to work in, in adoptions and then in supervising adoptions in Southwark and has recently retired. She deserves a medal too I think. [laughs]
SB: Ok well thank you very much for that it’s been very interesting.
LF: [laughs] I love shooting a line. [laughs]
[machine paused]
LF: No I don’t think so. It’s too general to be -
SB: Well just explain -
LF: Really of interest.
SB: Just explain a little bit about it to me then.
LF: Right. Hang on a moment.
[pause]
LF: Upon arrival in prisoner of war camp one of the early things that one should do is to have a private conversation with the man of confidence. The man of confidence is a prisoner of war in whom his fellow prisoners of war have absolute confidence that he will not betray what they say and it’s a way of ensuring that all prisoners of war are in fact genuine ex-service men, prisoners of war and not German stooges. To the man of confidence you’re allowed to say things that you mustn’t say to fellow prisoners of war. In fact all the detail of your training and whatever and any observations you had about being shot down which might be useful to people who are still fighting. Now this was really quite important and I think it also gave people a sense of the cohesion of all being prisoners together on the same level. Now, I’ve spoken of wireless sets. The man of confidence was in communication with the Air Ministry. So we were told. And I think this was born out because through him came the message that we were no longer to attempt to escape and daily orders could come through which were quite secret from the Germans. How this was done of course I don’t know because I didn’t need to know but the Germans constantly searched of course for wireless sets but because these could be made up, for example, using the solder from the sealings on tins of food using wire and crystals supplied quite openly by the Red Cross which the Germans didn’t bar. Wireless sets would not appear to the uninitiated to be anything at all because they were dismembered and hidden as soon as the broadcast was finished. No prisoners, apart from those actually operating the wireless sets knew where they were except by misadventure and that’s the way it was kept so that interrogation by the Germans would not have been likely to have broken the secrecy.
SB: So the man of confidence, who put him in that position?
LF: The man of confidence was put in that position by the early members starting the new prisoner of war camp and they, there was a camp leader elected as well. In our case it was an Australian airman but, but because during his captivity he was promoted to officer rank he was removed by the Germans and we needed to elect another one which we did by an open ballot. There was also an office run by three or four senior prisoners who were responsible for all contacts with the Germans and some of those were selected because they were able to speak German. Of course we had daily parades and counting and it was against our interests to try and trick the Germans into miscounting and we didn’t do so because we had no need in our camp to conceal the fact that anybody had escaped. Yeah. I think that’s the lot.
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AFisherLS150814
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Interview with Laurence Sidney Fisher
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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00:50:01 audio recording
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Sheila Bibb
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2015-08-14
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Laurence Fisher grew up in Peterborough and served in the Home Guard before joining the Royal Air Force. He served as ground personnel before remustering as aircrew. He flew operations from Italy before his aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war.
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Royal Air Force
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Great Britain
Egypt
Italy
South Africa
North Africa
Egypt--Sidi Barrani
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1945
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Julie Williams
bale out
civil defence
Home Guard
Me 109
prisoner of war
shot down
Stalag Luft 7
the long march
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/303/3460/AMcPhersonWhiteR150901.1.mp3
0e5df7f42951c97fd20e9aa7362cf89e
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White, Roy
Roy McPherson White
Roy M White
Roy White
R M White
R White
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Roy McPherson White (1925 - 2018, 3006061 Royal Air Force), his log book, Service and Release Book, and five photographs. He joined the RAF in 1943 and after training, served as a wireless operator until 1947.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy White and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-01
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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White, RM
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Stationed at RAF Yatesbury (No.2 Radio School),
RAF Aqir (No. 76 Operational Training Unit and No. 26 Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit), RAF Abu Sueir (1675 Heavy Conversion Unit),
RAF Khormaksar (Aden Communication Flight).
Aircraft in which flown: Proctor, Dominie, Wellington X, Liberator VI, Baltimore, Ventura, Albacore, Beechcraft, Mosquito, Anson.
Roy White was born in Perth, Scotland in 1925. He lived in Scotland until the age of nine, before moving to London, after he received a scholarship to the London Choir. Roy performed with the choir at the 1937 Coronation of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth.
Roy left school at fifteen and went to work in the fabric trade at 16, he joined the ATC as a Volunteer Reserve, before joining the RAF in 1943 at the age of 18.
Roy recalls going to Lords Cricket Ground on the “Hallowed Turf” to join up. Roy was accommodated in some near by flats by the RAF. Roy’s brother was also in the RAF, in Costal Command and was a Navigator.
Roy was stationed at RAF Yatesbury (No.2 Radio School), RAF Aqir (No. 76 Operational Training Unit and No. 26 Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit), RAF Abu Sueir (1675 Heavy Conversion Unit), RAF Khormaksar (Aden Communication Flight).
Aircraft in which he flew: Proctor, Dominie, Wellington X, Liberator VI, Baltimore, Ventura, Albacore, Beechcraft, Mosquito, Anson.
At RAF Yatesbury Roy could easily do the required twelve words per minute in Morse code, and had an excellent American trainer who could do forty words per minute, along as sending and receiving the messages. At certain times, Roy was allowed to teach the class, but was mocked by his fellow classmates. Roy also learnt about the different parts of the radio, how to take them apart and fix them, along with how to fault find on the radio. The signaller would receive a message every thirty minutes, on the mission flight. This message could be about the target, or the weather condition, or even to return to base. The radio waves could also be used to help the Navigator find the correct location. As the Signaller was listening out constantly for messages, he wasn’t on the main crew radio.
Roy also learnt how to take a gun apart blindfolded, which he struggled with but found useful. Roy and his best friend Billy failed the initial training exams, and had to resit them, wit the next unit that arrived. While waiting to complete his exams, Roy worked as a porter at the local hospital, moving the wounded solider sent over from France.
Once Roy had passed all his exams and training, on his passing out parade, he borrowed a uniform for the parade. His uniform was having his brevets sown on by a WAAF on the base.
As part of the Air Crew training for a Signaller to correctly use the radio on board. Roy had to learn about the theory of radio waves, and learn to complete different sounds tests, along with the PNB system test.
When training as an Air Gunner, Roy learnt about the different parts of a .303 riffle and did some clay pigeon shooting. He didn’t receive much Air Gunnery training, as he was to fly on B24 Liberators (the main bombers used in the Middle east) and they used .5 guns, which he didn’t train on until he was in the Liberators.
Roy sailed to Egypt via Gibraltar, as he was a trained Air Gunner, the ships Captain on the merchant convoy, appointed him Ships Gunner and told him to expect to fire the guns. Roy did daily four-hour shift, U-Boat watches on the journey.
When Roy finally arrived RAF Abu Sueir, along with all the other crews. They were locked in a hanger for twenty minutes and told to crew up for the Vickers Wellington that they were to fly. Roy joined a crew with four South Africans and two other Scotsman. The South African crew mostly spoke to one another in Afrikaans.
When Roy was training on Wellingtons, due to a fuel tank problem. The Wellington crashed on landing. Roy banged his head on the radio set and was in hospital for a few days. After the crash, they were assigned a new pilot. The rear gunner got stuck in the Wellington, due to the mechanism being broken.
Roy and the crew then converted to B24 Liberators, which he flew until he left the RAF in 1947. After the war he returned back to his pre-war job in fabric, before running a Antiques shop with his wife before retiring.
Daniel Richards
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today I am doing an interview with Roy White and we’re at [redacted] Haunton near Banbury and we are going to talk about his days in the RAF, about how he got to that position and what he did afterwards. So, over to you Roy, if you’d like to gives us your history please.
RW: Right, I was born in Perth, Scotland 1925. I lived there till I was nine years old, then I came to take a recital in London to join a London choir in Margaret Street in London. So I did join the choir at the age of nine and I continued there until I was fifteen. I managed to get into the coronation choir during my experiences there and it was a marvellous experience in actual fact then. When I left the choir I went to the Mercers’ school for a couple of years but I left there and joined a firm that was making fabrics and I was there until I joined up in 1943. I joined up and went to St John’s Wood, Lord’s Cricket Ground on the hallowed turf, we were actually allowed to go across there and we were billeted out in the flats at St John’s Wood from there and kitted out and all the rest. After we’d done all our initial pieces we then went on to Bridgnorth for our initial training wing, which was drill, which didn’t come as a great surprise ‘cause I’ve been in the ATC and we’d done it all before, you know, but the Morse code was alright because we were supposed to do twelve words a minute when we left there but in actual fact I could do twelve when I started, ‘cause I done there, but I found it more difficult with the, with the gunnery in actual fact taking 303s to pieces and what not there because used to have, undo the breechblock with a blindfold on and put it back together which sounds stupid but in actual fact the lighting was very poor on aircraft so in actual fact if something goes wrong it was quite difficult to see so, in actual fact it made quite a lot of sense. So we were there till about the end of the year 1943 and then went to the radio school at Yatesbury and we were supposed to get up from twelve to eighteen words a minute on there and we also did training in arms, we rifles, Sten guns, we did hand grenades as well, what not there to, general training, what not there and my best pal, Billy Wilson and I, when it came to the exams we both failed the same thing on [unclear] and so we had to drop back a week and join the next unit, which came as a big surprise for us because that unit had been marked down for overseas unit, they sent us home on leave again for a fortnight but we joined the unit there. During our period waiting for embarkation we spent a couple of nights at [unclear] hospital, portering the wounded coming back from France, the convoys and we worked all night during operations helping out which was quite an experience ‘cause it really brought it home to you what it was all about when you saw the condition of some of these people who were there, you know, quite difficult, but it was a good experience and we embarked on the ship and we, I’ve never been sailing before, I’ve been across the Isle of Wight, that was my total knowledge of sailing, we thought, oh, lovely, easy trip on there and we saw the sailors loading up shells and wondered what on earth they were for, the first officer came on board, was just walking past us and he said, ‘you gunners?’ And we said, ‘well, air gunners’, and he said, ‘oh good, you can be the [unclear] gunners for this ship.’ And we all looked at each other as if to say what’s he talking about? He said, ‘let me explain, we are classified as an armed merchant cruiser’, he said, ‘that destroyer over there will be looking after one side of the convoy and we should be looking after the other side.’ He said, ‘we’ve got two 4.6 guns on the end of this ship’, he said, ‘you will be firing them at some time’ and whatnot [laughs] ‘but in the meantime you’ll be submarine watching as well on four hour shifts’ [laughs]. So we started our voyage doing submarine watching shifts from midnight till four in the morning on the, dead man’s watch I think, we called it in actual fact [laughs]. So we did that there and we did actually fire the guns so [laughs] much to the amusement of the rest of the people on board the ship but so, yes so that was the voyage. Then we went to Aqir we were from Cairo, we were based there for about a week or so and then went through Aqir just started our training there and from there we went to the gunnery school at Ballah, then came back and did our OTU at Aqir and then finishing that we went down to a Heavy Conversion Unit down Abu Suweir onto Liberators after that, we were flying Wellingtons at Aqir but Liberators down to [unclear] and then after that we, came the end of the war in the Far East ‘cause we were due to go out there on our next trip but the atom bomb dropping, we then faced with nothing to do so, we got posted out to Aden then, to a communications unit there where we flew all over the Middle East, all over the Arabian continent what not, did quite a lot of flying there and did a year there and from there we went to 26 ACU army operation, cooperation unit and that was helping the army in Egypt, we were target towing to, for there so we did that for about nine months. And then we came home in 1947, and I got demobbed up in, on the coast, up north. And came back to my job in London after that.
CB: Ok, so when you returned to your job in London, what did you actually do?
RW: Oh, we were inspecting, we used to make rolls of cloth, and when we, they came back to London we used to inspect them all to make sure that the quality was good and what not, and then
CB: Then what?
RW: And then the firm split up, I went with one director and went with another and I eventually became the director of the firm on, you know, in London.
CB: So what were you supplying? You -
RW: We were supplying the wholesale trade, dress making trade, the fashion trade in other words.
CB: And so becoming a director, what were your responsibilities when you were the director?
RW: Well, re the stock and travelling as well, I used to go and see customers and we used to do the buying and what not you know for each year, ‘cause you are working six months in advance all the time, picking the next seasons, materials, fabrics and all the rest of it, you know, so.
CB: Sounds good.
RW: Quite a good job. Very interesting.
CB: When did that come to an end?
RW: About 1973 or 4 I think, something like that.
CB: Ok, so you were only fifty then, so what did you do next?
RW: Yes. We went into antiques then, you know. My wife had a hat shop and when she left that, we started doing antiques.
CB: Ok. And you did that till when?
RW: We were still doing antiques I mean we came here so till about, I suppose, twenty five years ago, something like that, you know.
CB: Then what?
RW: So we retired then [laughs]. We’d had enough [laughs].
CB: Ok. And did your wife keep busy after that?
RW: Yes, she, she enjoyed her hat shop and she was an extremely good French polisher, which very handy in antiques trade.
CB: For antiques.
RW: And she was very clever, extremely good needle woman, ‘cause her grandmother had been a court dressmaker, you know, so.
CB: Ok. Thank you very much, so now going back to the early days. How did you come to join the RAF rather than the army or the navy?
RW: Well, I’d been in the ACC [sic], my idea was to join, ‘cause my brother was in the RAF as well, he was in Coastal Command.
CB: What did he do?
RW: He was navigator.
CB: Ok. And is he still about, is he?
RW: No, he died unfortunately when he was about fifty odd. He had a heart condition and those days unfortunately there was nothing they could do for them, you know. Today could probably just put a stent on again.
[Other]: It was a different matter.
CB: Quite different.
RW: Unfortunately then he died but he was also very lucky because he was in a crash as well, in a Mosquito went up with a strange pilot because the aircraft had been in for an electrical fault and then this pilot said, would you come up with me because you weren’t allowed to go out without a wireless operator so they went up and after about twenty minutes or so went totally out of control and wouldn’t recognize any of the signals and what not and they just crashed on the runway and while I saw the pictures of it, all you could see was the radio, that was all that was left there and luckily, say luckily, he broke his thigh quite badly. And so reduced him to grade three and so he had to give up flying, you know, after that but the pilot was lucky, he just got nick out of his ear, that was all [unclear].
CB: Right. What happened, what was, did they find out what was wrong with it?
RW: No, as I say, it had been, I think, for an electrical fault so whether it was still there or what not, you know, is hard to know.
CB: We are going back to your situation.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you’ve been in the Air Training Corps at school.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And you left school at fifteen.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you stayed with the Air Training Corps throughout that period.
RW: That’s right.
CB: When you were doing what? You were at -
RW: Well, I joined the textiles when I was about sixteen, you know, so I’ve been with them about a couple of years.
CB: That was a company.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So, you volunteered, you were being called up at eighteen.
RW: Yeah, I was in the RAF for, you know, [unclear]
CB: Yeah, ok, so how did that go? So, they called you up or you just said, I am joining, I want to join up?
RW: No, they called me up when I was eight, after eighteen, you know, because as conscription after you were eighteen.
CB: Yeah. Ok, so what happened then? ‘Cause you talked earlier about grading, so at what point did you undertake the grading system for aircrew, because they could have put you on the ground you see?
RW: Oh, when I went to Cardington.
CB: Right.
RW: That was it, I just got the notice to stay and we were there two days, most of the first day was medicals and what not and then the second day was all the various testing and then we had a board interview with the wing commander I think who went through all our details and said, yes or no, you were suitable.
CB: And what sort of testing did they do to decide whether first of all you’d be aircrew rather than ground crew and secondly which type of aircrew?
RW: They’d give you some educational test and for wireless operators they’d just give the difference between different sounds, you know, to pick it out as to say whether you could tell the difference [unclear]
CB: Yeah, sure.
RW: But that was the basics of it.
CB: Right, because they had the PNB system, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer
RW: That’s right, yes, and I think they had different things for each of them, you know
CB: Yeah. And had you volunteered to be a wireless operator air gunner?
RW: Yeah, because they said, why do you want to be a wireless operator? I said, well, I’ve been in the ATC, I enjoyed [unclear] I want to be a wireless operator, you know [laughs].
CB: Ok, good. So then you went on to do gunnery.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And how did that go? So,
RW: It was quite good, the training was quite good but it was fairly short course ‘cause they knew we were going onto Liberators and because different guns, instead of the 303s you’re on the point five, so there wasn’t a lot of training for that because they knew you’d be going over to the other ones afterwards.
CB: But how did they train people to be an air gunner? What was the first thing they did, because you hadn’t been in the air before so what was the process that you went through?
RW: Well, just mainly the basics of the 303 machine gun, you know, to learn all the bits and pieces of it, that took the most of the time.
CB: And when you start, when did you start shooting with an aerial?
RW: Well, we only did a little bit of shooting there.
CB: Was that, clay pigeon or initially, or how did they do it?
RW: Yeah, we did clay pigeon shooting and what not at Yatesbury as well as Ross rifles, what not, we did all that sort of thing.
CB: What rifles?
RW: Ross rifles, Canadian rifles they were.
CB: Oh, right, that was shooting at targets.
RW: Yeah, that’s right.
CB: Ok. So they didn’t put you in any turret at that stage.
RW: No, not at that stage, no.
CB: Ok. Good. So the point you were making earlier about the Liberator is that it is an American aircraft so it’s got different guns and they are .5 machine guns
RW: That’s right.
CB: And a completely different setup.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But when you got to the end of the course they recoursed you because you and Billy Wilson didn’t get through, what caused you to fail?
RW: It was a radio test, what you did, you tuned up the transmitter to get the maximum aerial, and you had, you were supposed to retest it, to make sure that you were on the right one and not on the reverse signal there and it was one of the few tests that if you failed that was it, you had to, the other things you could fail but it didn’t matter quite so much.
CB: Ok.
RW: But this particular one we both failed on the same thing so all we did was just retrain for a week and retake it all again, you know.
CB: Ok. The reason why we’re asking the questions is of course people have absolutely no concept of what is involved in the individual trade specialities.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So when you came to do radio training how did that work? They started you said earlier with the Morse code.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But then you got on to using radio, so could you describe please what was the process of training to be a wireless operator?
RW: Well, you had to learn all the innards of the various sets, all the various valves and what they did and they went through all the theories of what radios waves were and how they worked, all of the rest of it, you know, it was, quite involved learning all of that you know, something new completely to me at the time and of course in those days with the big old valves and what not not like the modern things now, and it was quite a complicated business fault finding ‘cause they used to do testing, putting faults in the system and find out where they were, all that sort of thing, and it was quite complicated you know to do it all but -
CB: So there was a lot of theory?
RW: Yeah, a lot of theory.
CB: And then there was practical, so how did that work?
RW: Practical. Very good in actual fact I enjoyed you know Morse code for my sins the instructor used to let me take the class when he was getting tired, usually [unclear], used to start a bit of a riot with all the class, they said, don’t you go too fast now! [laughs] Oh no, so, I used to take the class occasionally [unclear] but I enjoyed Morse code.
CB: So, Morse code you needed to know because of the signals coming in.
RW: Yes, that’s right.
CB: And going out but what was actually the job of the air signaller, the radio operator?
RW: Well, on half hour used to get the messages from coming in, I mean it might say return to base or weather bad or whatever, the rest of the time you could use the radio compass to find out the way back to base and stuff like that you know and you could find your position by contacting two different stations and asking them to verify what your position was [unclear]
CB: So in practical terms you were helping the navigator, were you, in position and indication?
RW: Yes, in an actual fact, you could pass it over to him, say what it was [unclear]
CB: And did the navigator ask you to do that?
RW: Not that, not that I remember.
CB: Later on.
RW: But I used to pass it on to him anyway, you know, see whether there was any commonality [laughs]
CB: So you were teacher’s pet in this business of the training for being a wireless operator?
RW: I don’t know about that! [laughs]
CB: But -
RW: No, he was, mainly, he was on an American, he worked for Wells Fargo, he was absolutely fabulous operator, quite incredible.
CB: And he had operational experience, had he?
RW: Yeah, I think he could do about forty words a minute actually on there which was absolutely incredible and he could send messages and receive them at the same time, you know.
CB: But had he got aircrew experience?
RW: No.
CB: Oh, he hadn’t. Oh, ok. So what about the other people who were on the course, so they were barracking you not to go too fast, so what were the people and what were they like? What sort of people?
RW: Oh, they were great bunch of fellows, as in actual fact you know, wonderful sense of humour, all pulling the leg if they had to [laughs] but oh yeah, great bunch of blokes in actual fact.
CB: And presumably they had some kind of aptitude, did they, to do this work because.
RW: Oh yes, they did, in actual fact, you know, we all [unclear] in different ways, they all come from different backgrounds, all sorts of things.
CB: Had any of them got radio experience before?
RW: I don’t think so, oh yeah, one chap had, I think he worked for Marconi or something like that but most of the others never had, you know so [unclear]
CB: So you and Billy Wilson were recoursed.
RW: Yeah.
CB: What happened to the other members of the course? I mean, where did they go?
RW: Oh, I think they must have gone straight on over here to OTU gunnery school and probably onto a squadron you know [unclear] left behind, you know.
CB: So you kept in touch did you, with some of the people so -
RW: No, I didn’t, actually, in actual fact, you know [unclear], so I don’t know quite where they all finished up, but I have no doubt they finished up in a squadron somewhere round about.
CB: It’s interesting that you then being recoursed, you went to a different unit.
RW: Yeah.
CB: That meant you had to go in the convoy system.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Out to the Middle East.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Did you go around the Cape, did you?
RW: No, went straight, went straight through Gibraltar, a long way to Port Said [unclear]
CB: Right. Ok. So when you then got to Egypt, what was the routine then because you’d done your basic training including gunnery but you hadn’t done .5 machine guns, so what did you do as soon as you got to Port Said?
RW: I think we went to Cairo, as I say, for about a week or ten days, something like that and then straight to Aqir, to the base I think there, and then from there to Ballah, you know, to the gunnery school after that, they did that first to get that out of the way before the OTU, you know.
CB: So how was the training, how did they do the training in those two places, at Aqir and Ballah?
RW: It was mostly paper work, you know for the biggest part of the time, you know, in actual fact, fill in all the different bits and pieces that were there.
CB: And the gunnery, how did they do that?
RW: I’m not sure we did a lot of that because I think what they were thinking, we were going on to Liberators anyway so wasn’t gonna make a lot of difference to do that, you know, so in actual fact I think we curtailed it.
CB: So at what stage did you crew up and where?
RW: Well, what they did when we went to Aqir, they marched us all up into a big hangar, said, ‘right, we are going now, we are locking the doors, we’ll come back in twenty minutes, sort yourself out a crew’ and that was it [laughs], that’s exactly what you did, you all talked to each other and finished up going on to a crew.
CB: So this is crewing up for Wellingtons?
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you don’t have an air engineer, you don’t have a flight engineer.
RW: No.
CB: So, how did you -
RW: We had a second pilot.
CB: Oh did you? Who took the initiative in making the crew up?
RW: Well, you just sort of walked into people and said, ‘well, can I be with you’ [laughs] and they said, ‘oh yes, why not?’ You know, my name is Roy, you know [unclear]
CB: ‘Cause you all got brevet so you knew what your specialities were.
RW: Of course, some of them I knew but others most of them I didn’t know at all you know so because our crew was, there were four South Africans in it, you know, it’s unusual, you know [unclear]
CB: So tell us about who were the people there then, in the, individual, the pilot, who was the captain, the pilot, who was he?
RW: The pilot was a Lieutenant Van Sale.
CB: South African.
RW: And there was Lieutenant Erasmus was the co-pilot and there was a front gunner and a rear gunner, they were both South Africans.
CB: Right. The navigator?
RW: Two Scots, and then one Englishman, [laughs] that made up -
CB: So, did you class yourself as a Scotsman or an Englishman in that?
RW: Well, as a Scotsman, you know.
CBN: Right, ok. So, how did the others go then? Who was the navigator?
RW: Navigator was the Englishman. Yeah, he was an officer as well [unclear]
CB: And what was his experience?
RW: I don’t know really, in actual fact where he’d come from, in fact. I think like everybody else he just arrived at Aqir you know, [laughs] sorry I don’t know where from in actual fact but -
CB: The reason -
RW: We were all a great bunch anyway.
CB: Yes. And so you crewed up and you did your, you did then gunnery training when you were in the Wellington, did you?
RW: No, I did radio, just radio, that’s all.
CB: Ok, right. So you didn’t do gunnery normally, it was just a secondary -
RW: No, no, I was just filling in.
CB: Right. Ok. And then how long were you there at the OTU?
RW: A sheet somewhere.
CB: Because it took a little while to do all the training on the Wellington presumably.
RW: Yes, it did, in actual fact.
CB: Just looking at the form.
RW: We finished in June ’45 at Aqir OTU and then we went to Abu Suweyr and finished up in September ’45 there, just one day after they dropped the atom bomb, you know, so.
CB: Yeah, but by then you went to Abu Suweyr because of the Liberator?
RW: Yeah.
CB: So, that took more crew, so how did that work?
RW: Yeah, we made up, because, I don’t think I said but [unclear] the aircraft, as far as we know, a bomb exploded on board, I think it got caught up in the release mechanism and they were all killed.
CB: On the ground or in the air?
RW: In the air, you know and about three days later our pilot was told to switch over tanks, he switched over to an empty one, cut both the engines and -
CB: This is in the Wellington?
RW: In the Wellington, that’s right.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And so we finished up in a field on that, how he managed to control it I don’t know but -
CB: This was without an instructor?
RW: We had an instructor with us, thank God.
CB: Oh you did?
RW: So, yeah, so we finished up in the field and the laugh was I didn’t know anything about it because I’ve been on my radio ‘cause I cut myself off from the rest and the first thing I knew was my going straight into the radio thing front there and I was livid because I thought, what kind of a landing is that? [laughs] but it was a fantastic piece of work, in actual fact, how he did it, and I mean, we were just lucky to be over some fields, if we’d been over a built up area we, you know, there’d be no way out, but just lucky that was a field there.
CB: What did they do with the pilot?
RW: I think, he left us after that, yes, that’s right, got a new pilot as a matter of fact, so.
CB: As a captain.
RW: Yeah, captain.
CB: Another South African.
RW: Another South African, yeah, that’s right, slightly older so, so we got a different instructor, we had a squadron leader, the chief instructor then so.
CB: Interesting, so how did the crew gel together?
RW: Oh, very well really, considering they come from all different backgrounds, you know.
CB: Did they South Africans, because of their names, it sound as if they were Afrikaans? Did they?
RW: Yeah, they spoke to each other in Afrikaans because it was better for them, I mean they speak English very well but they tended to speak to each other in Afrikaans some of the time.
CB: But you didn’t mind.
RW: No.
CB: But you knew a bit of it after a bit.
RW: Not really [laughs], I had enough trouble trying to learn Arabic! [laughs]
CB: Did they give you courses in Arabic?
RW: No, just picked it up, you know, from bits and pieces during the day.
CB: Right, right. So you finish on the OTU,
RW: Yeah.
CB: You go to the HCU,
RW: Yeah.
CB: To go to change to heavies and you’re going onto Liberators.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what was the process there?
RW: Going on to Liberators, just getting used to, ‘cause they were quite complicated the American sets, they were very good, the Bendicks was a marvellous transmitter, they used to ask us not to transmit over the station because it used to drown all [laughs] communications in actual fact but it was very good, in actual fact.
CB: So now, you were just allocated other aircrew because for instance there was no engineer on the -
RW: Yes, I think one of them was off, Billy my friend’s crew that got killed ‘cause unfortunately they had to drop one out when the instructor was with them so there was one crew member left, one poor gunner left on his own so we took him on as one of our spare ones, on there.
CB: How many crew were there on a Liberator?
RW: Eight on there.
CB: Ok. Where did the engineer come from? Was he a South African as well?
RW: Well, he was second pilot, you know, Lieutenant Erasmus [unclear]
CB: Ah right. Ok. Good. Now some of the difficult things in the circumstances were obvious in Britain but in some cases they were also abroad. One of them is LMF, lacking moral fibre.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So, did you come across that at all?
RW: No, there was a slight bit of it because when we had our crash, the rear gunner got stuck in his and couldn’t get the turret to move, you know, I think he was scared [laughs] it was gonna go up, you know, without him, so there was some talk at the time that he was going to give it up but in actual fact he didn’t, he went back again but I think there were odd cases of people who did give up.
CB: And what did they do with them?
RW: I don’t know what they did, I presume they put them down in the ground staff job, but I don’t really know.
CB: ‘Cause in Britain they had a very firm way of dealing with them.
RW: Yeah, they didn’t like it you know ‘cause obviously it wasn’t good for morale.
CB: No.
RW: No.
CB: The other is the STDs, the sexually transmitted diseases. So how did that get dealt with?
RW: I remember that they had somewhat horrific films they showed you at St John’s Wood when we first went there [laughs] but I think that was their method of dealing with it mainly you know, in actual fact, but it was really all the confrontation we had with it, you know.
CB: Ok. Good, I’m gonna stop there for a mo. We are restarting now just to talk about some extra items.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what about accommodation?
RW: Accommodation was quite good, you had your own space and locker where you keep all your own private bits and pieces, you know, photographs and letters from home all the rest of it you know and the food generally was very good, you know, we enjoyed it and what not, nothing really to complain about, it was really, really quite good.
CB: Did you get better food because you were aircrew?
RW: Yes, I think so.
CB: Even in training?
RW: Yeah, I think so, yes, on there. ‘Cause at a sergeant’s mess you know and what not there, so used on your own, quite decent but we reckoned it was better than the officer’s mess [laughs] so we didn’t know.
CB: So you had lockable lockers but were you in Nissen huts or what sort of accommodation did you have?
RW: Yes, sort of Nissen huts, you know, there, and yes in Aqir.
CB: So, were they insulated?
RW: Not really, because it was very hot, you know, all the rest of it, the climate was quite hot out there so, don’t really [unclear] much from there,
CB: No.
RW: But they were quite comfortable, I must say.
CB: Right. And in the UK, what about the accommodation there?
RW: No, fairly basic there, I remember polishing the floor [laughs] so corporal used to come and dump a great load of polish on the floor and say, ‘polish that’ and it took about an hour to get it [laughs]
CB: With a bumper and a liner.
RW: That’s right, a bumper up and down and one sitting on it and going up and down but yes [unclear]
CB: Now you started as an AC2.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How did the promotion system work?
RW: Well, when you finished your course at Yatesbury, you got your promotion to sergeant, used to be quite funny actually because what we used to do is borrow somebody else’s uniform for the parade that day and get the WAAFs to sew all our stuff on there so the minute we came out for our parade we could put our new jackets on with all the rest of us so we were all in borrowed, borrowed gear [laughs] when we went on parade then.
CB: And your brevet was what?
RW: Pardon?
CB: What was the brevet?
RW: The brevet, that originally it was air gunner and then it went to signaller later on they changed after about a year to signaller.
CB: And so you are now a sergeant, how long were you a sergeant?
RW: Till, till I was down in Aden when we took a board from there, got flight sergeant.
CB: And how did the pay change?
RW: It was more, I can’t remember what it was [laughs] wasn’t a fortune but it was better than it was before, you know.
CB: You knew where you were going to go when you left the RAF. Were you waiting to get out waiting for demob or did you just say, I want to be demobbed now? [emphasis]
RW: No, we just got sent home, that was all afterwards, no sort of forecast or anything, we just, we were 26 AACU, they just said, right, you are posted home you know and that was it, little or no warning [unclear]
CB: And where did they send you?
RW: To Lytham St Annes.
CB: And what was the process there?
RW: Just got all your civvies which we hadn’t seen for donkey’s years [laughs], you know and all the bits and pieces, got your vouchers and your travel warrants and all those [unclear] and I was due about six or seven weeks leave I think something like that, you know, so I didn’t take it up [unclear] but yes that was the end of that you know.
CB: So, the war’s ended, you’ve been demobbed two years later.
RW: Yeah.
CB: You then go into civilian life, having been in the ATC and joined as a volunteer reserve person, what was your commitment for future years?
RW: Well, I quite liked the job that I went to, you know, so I decided I’ve been toying with the idea I might stop in the RAF but I decided, no, I’d sooner go back to the textiles so, in a way I’m glad you know that I did, because I enjoyed textiles so it’s very good you know.
CB: But you were required, as a VR man, you were required to remain in the VR,
RW: Yes.
CB: That’s what I meant. Till what age?
RW: I got my release, release thing, I think all the dates and what not are back there, how many years I’m on reserve ‘cause they said [unclear], you might be eligible for call up in an emergency and what not.
CB: And did you join any air force associations afterwards?
RW: I was in the RAFA for a while not long after, played cricket for them, while, I enjoyed that in actual fact [laughs]
CB: Did you do much cricket when you were in the RAF?
RW: When we were down at Aden I played cricket down there you know, we’d to play the officer’s mess, we used to like beating them [laughs]
CB: Good, Ok, thank you very much, I’m going to stop there for a mo. Right, you mentioned earlier about the aircraft that was downed because of a hang-up.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And the bomb, were you in formation with that or was it a separate and what happened?
RW: No, we weren’t flying that day, we were between lectures and I just came back at lunchtime and as I say next door were just empty bedsprings, nothing on the locker nothing I said you know, where’s Billy’s stuff, and he said, haven’t you heard? No, and he said, oh, you know he’s gone and got killed, you know, I was shattered you know.
CB: This is your friend Billy Wilson.
RW: Yeah, that’s right, so as I say, we never got an official report, you never did with these things, but that was what we heard, and it sort of ties up with the fact that nobody got out, it was an experienced pilot on board, an instructor, you know, there were no survivors, nobody parachuted out or what not there so must have been something disastrous that happened you know, so that was it.
CB: So how did you all feel as a crew after that?
RW: Oh, a bit shattered, especially when we had our own one a couple of days after [laughs], wasn’t a very good week in actual fact.
CB: So when you had your own engine failure because of fuel starvation, that was, what height was that?
RW: I’m not really sure but all I can think was that the pilot had to keep the nose down because they daren’t let the nose go up, go out of control so if we were flying, say six thousand feet, take what, two, three minutes with the nose down, something like that so he had to find somewhere in about two or three minutes.
CB: And he wasn’t able to switch, he wasn’t able to switch the fuel correctly and restart.
RW: No, there wasn’t time because I mean he had more than his job, ‘cause it was a heavy aircraft the Wellington but to keep control of it with no engines it must have been a heck of a job, you know, to do that, just to try and keep it level and what not there and at the same time try and find somewhere you could put it down, you know, so.
CB: What did he say to the crew on the intercom?
RW: I don’t really know ‘cause I wasn’t on it, you see, I didn’t know anything about it, you know.
CB: You were listening out, were you, on the radio?
RW: I was listening out, ‘cause it was more than your life’s worth, to miss the messages on the half hour, then, you know, if you came back and your logbook had got no messages, so, what goes on, you know,
CB: So that’s an important point as you’re, now you’re flying, your role is to listen out to signals.
RW: Yeah.
CB: What did you actually have to do? You were listening to signals but how did that work?
RW: Well, as I say, it might be just trial messages that you think on there but as I say occasionally would be something like return to base, weather bad or something else like that which you of course you would then pass on them back to them on there so that was why they absolutely insisted that you got the half hour messages, you know, didn’t miss them.
CB: Because they would send particular messages on the half hour.
RW: Yes, they did on Bomber Command I think, if they had anything there had a registered time to send the messages and you had to make sure you got them.
CB: So we are talking about this crash, how, who else was hurt in the crash?
RW: The front gunner broke his ankle but that was the worst of the injuries, which is absolutely incredible really.
CB: And was the bomb aimer also a gunner?
RW: No. No.
CB: He simply was the air bomber.
RW: Yeah, yeah.
CB: Ok. So, thinking of your flying experiences in total, what would you say were the best times and what were the worst?
RW: I think, flying in the communications unit down at Aden was the best time in actual fact ‘cause it was so varied, you know, all sorts of things, we actually took an air vice marshal round on a tour of the thing, the CO called us up one day and he got a letter in front of him and said, ‘I’ve just had a note from the Air Ministry to say that they are sending Air Vice Marshal Sir Charles’ - I can’t remember what his surname was – ‘on a tour of inspection and we’ve been given the job of taking him round, so I don’t want anything to go wrong understood?’ [laughs] So he says [unclear] so we’ve, I’ve never seen so much top brass in my life ‘cause they all appeared, the Governor’s car turned up, his Rolls Royce and they were all involved.
CB: This is in the Liberator?
RW: No, so, no, it was a Wellington converted on [unclear] so, yes so, and a very nice lady officer with him as well there, which cheered everybody up but yes so we took him round, we actually had dinner together the evening which surprised me [unclear]
CB: He was a flying man, I take it?
RW: Yes, I think he was one of the top handful of people in the end, the chief of technical training command I think he was something like that you know, so.
CB: What was the worst experience you had?
RW: Let me think now, I should think probably the day Billy’s crash I think it was probably about the worst day of it all really, rest of it, you know, was bad, that was the sort of low point from the time but get over it, you know.
CB: Had you known his parents, before you went out?
RW: No, unfortunately not, no, and the worst thing was I wanted to go on his funeral parade but we were all on sick leave you know, they wouldn’t let us go on parade you know so I didn’t get the chance to, well you know, say goodbye.
CB: You were on sick leave. What sort of sickness did you get?
RW: Ah, well, I had a sore head [laughs] for about a week afterwards but you know apart from that it wasn’t bad you know.
CB: Yeah. From the crash. Yeah.
RW: Yeah, but they obviously decided, you know, to give us some days off.
CB: Yeah. Right. We’ve had a good interview now so we are looking at pictures and various things and we’ll wrap things up.
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AMcPhersonWhiteR150901
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Interview with Roy White
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:53:22 audio recording
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2015-09-01
Description
An account of the resource
Roy White was born in Perth, Scotland but grew up in London. He joined the Air Training Corps, went on as a volunteer reserve and then served as an air gunner in the RAF. Tells of his brother serving in Coastal Command and surviving an aircraft crash. Gives some insight in aircrew roles such as radio operator and air gunner. Mentions various episodes of his service life: training in England and Egypt; an aircraft crash in which a friend got killed; flying with a South African crew; being assigned to submarine watching and manning the guns on his journey to Egypt; towards the end of the war, being posted to the communications unit at Aden. He served as a wireless operator in Egypt post war.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Great Britain
Middle East
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
Egypt--Alexandria
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
aircrew
B-24
crash
crewing up
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Aqir
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/344/3511/PWakefieldJ1601.1.jpg
b92234efa02be14011383a80ecf247aa
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/344/3511/AWakefieldJ161029.1.mp3
434d2e2cf7e487f4db1dbc3d6a3bd309
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wakefield, Jack
J Wakefield
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Jack Wakefield (1921 - 2022, 40929 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations with 75 Squadron from RAF Feltwell and with 38 Squadron in the Middle East.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wakefield, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MS: This is Miriam Sharland and I’m interviewing Jack Wakefield today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Jack’s home in Wanganui and it is Saturday the 29th of October 2016. Thank you, Jack, for agreeing to talk to me today.
JW: It’s a pleasure.
MS: Also present at the interview is Glenn Turner Of 75 Squadron Association. So, Jack can you tell me a bit about your early life before you got involved with the air force?
JW: Well, I was an apprentice upholsterer when war broke out. And I joined the air force and the army at the same time. But the army age was actually twenty one. So when I got the message from the air force that I’d been accepted and that I was going in to camp on the 8th of April 1940. I sent my father down to the army headquarters to say that I was too young to join the army and they weren’t very pleased. But anyway I made the right decision and really enjoyed my time in the air force.
MS: So what made you decide to join the air force?
JW: Well, we were very patriotic as young people and I was actually in the Territorial Army, and that’s why I joined the army at the same time. Most young men were looking forward to adventure. We knew that it was dangerous but it didn’t worry us a great deal. So it didn’t matter a hell of a lot to us which service we went in. But I said years later, there’s one thing about the air force, you go home to bed — if you go home.
MS: So how did you end up in Bomber Command?
JW: Well, eventually, when I arrived in England in July 1940 we were all gathered at Uxbridge in London and from there we were posted to all points of the compass. And I happened to go to number 5 OTU Aston Downs which is an RAF station, training on Defiants. And during that period the Defiants were meeting up with the Messerschmitts and initially the Messerchmitts were coming behind the Defiants which had a four gun turret firing twelve hundred rounds a minute, each gun. They fell to the gunners and the air force were ahead. But once the Germans knew that the Defiant had no forward armament they started attacking from the front, and then things were reversed. The Defiants were, suffered heavy losses and were withdrawn. By that time I’d finished training on Defiants and they had to do something with us. We were trained air gunners after all. No matter what aircraft we were flying in. So we were posted to 75 Squadron. A New Zealand Flight that had evidently a shortage of air gunners. Like replacements.
MS: So did you want to be a pilot?
JW: Yes. I definitely wanted to be a pilot but I, to be quite honest I just didn’t have the education. I was quite capable of passing, you know, exams. I had a proficiency certificate but that wasn’t sufficient. One thing I couldn’t do was mathematics because I’d never seen them in my life. That’s algebra and all that kind of stuff. So I stumbled there. But anyway I was quite happy to go as an air gunner but I would have, right up to the end of my service life I would have liked to have been a pilot.
MS: So can you tell me a bit about the air gunner’s role? What did it feel like when you were in the turret?
JW: Well you felt responsible for your other crew members. You were the only eyes facing backwards. And we had small duties like the navigator might want a drift. Get the drift of the aircraft and things like that but mostly the main function, I suppose, was extra eyes, especially facing backwards.
MS: And did you ever shoot any German planes down?
JW: No. To be quite honest I never fired a shot. But we were fired at occasionally but quite often the target was too far away for me to retaliate so I’d just give the pilot instructions which way to dive to get the darkest part of the sky.
MS: Can you tell us what it was like when you were training?
JW: Well, it was very thrilling getting into a two seater fighter with a Merlin engine up front, even though it was underpowered for the weight it was carrying. We were so keen to fly that there was pilots going up in Blenheim’s solo and we volunteered to go up with them. And one day I went up with this Blenheim pilot and the aircraft — most of the aircraft were clapped out and we got up, he was going up to, I think it was twenty two thousand and we got up to about fifteen and I found I had no intercom. And there was also a light button which we could send Morse. That was u/s as well. And then when I turned the oxygen on that wasn’t working either. And I couldn’t, I could bash and yell and everything but I couldn’t make the pilot hear me. But at seventeen thousand, it’s in my logbook, seventeen thousand you start to overheat so he descended. So, otherwise I would have gone to sleep. That’s just a little side line.
MS: What did it feel like going from New Zealand to England?
JW: Well, it was a great thrill of course. You see, we were, well I was only third generation New Zealander. All our history at school was British history so we felt very very close to English people. And we knew all about, well I wouldn’t say knew all about, we knew a lot of English history. We knew London. All the history connected with London and all that kind of thing. So we really enjoyed getting around. Then we got to Uxbridge. If we weren’t posted in the morning we were free for the rest of the day. So another New Zealander, a navigator, we’d tramp around London until we were absolutely footsore. And I suppose we were glad to be posted [laughs] because we were running out of money as well.
MS: Can you tell us what squadron, what squadrons you were in and what rank you were?
JW: 75 Squadron. I was a sergeant.
MS: And what —
JW: 38 Squadron I was firstly a pilot officer, actually firstly a flight sergeant, then pilot officer and flying officer.
MS: And where were you located? And what was it like on the bases where you were? Where you were based?
JW: Well, Feltwell of course was a permanent base. A peacetime station built in brick and all that kind of thing. You know, a quiet English village and when I got married I took my wife down there and we lived on a farm and the farmer and his wife really looked after us. And we used to enjoy a bit of a social life in the, well one pub was called The Bear. It was right, more or less opposite the gates of Feltwell. And in that pub my wife met an air gunner and he was flirting with her, and I didn’t knock his block off because he was harmless. But anyway two nights later the poor devil got a cannon shot through him and he went to Ely Hospital where he died. That was just one of the things that happened as soon as we got there. But anyway, my wife, living on the farm she could hear the squadron take off and she’d hear us drift back, and of course quite often we were, we couldn’t get down because of fog. So we’d be diverted but I had no way of contacting her to say that I was ok. So if I left, say, left home say at 8 o’clock the night before to take off at ten or something like that. 4 o’clock the next afternoon there was no Jack. And the farmer’s wife evidently went real solid, you know, stern, sad. But I’d just waltz in through the gate and the farmer’s wife would say to my wife, Joan, ‘Jack’s just come through the gate.’ But they really did treat me as their own and gave the wife and I a nice honeymoon. Until I finished my thirty trips.
MS: How did you meet your wife?
JW: Well I think there was three of us. We were on leave in Lancashire and we were wandering around a market there which they had. They had these stalls in the street. Well, you would know about that. And I was looking for pipe tobacco which was hard to get. There was no issue. You just had to get it where you could and we were going around the odd tobacconists and that and asking if they had any. Most of them said no because they’d have it under the counter for their customers. Anyway, there was these two nice, nicely dressed girls, one blonde, one brunette. Well, very well dressed and they were looking for flowers for their mother who had only died roughly six weeks before. And we passed them once or twice and gave the smart remark, you know. We weren’t crude in those days at all. Anyway, we passed them again later on and I asked them if they’d like to go to a local pub, have something to drink and eat. And after we got in there we ordered salmon sandwiches and then we started to sweat. We didn’t know how much they cost and we were nearly out of money because this was the end of our holiday. Anyway, I got on with Beryl’s [unclear] very very well and I promised to write to her because we were going back the next day. And she said to me, her sister Audrey, ‘He’ll never write.’ Well she got quite a shock because I did write. And at that time the girls were, they went home to live with their auntie because their mother had died and the house was sold. And they all got permission from their auntie for me to go there on leave. So that was great.
MS: So can you tell me how you got together with your crew and tell me what your — ?
JW: Oh yes I can tell you about that. I’ve just got to think of the name of the ‘drome for a minute. Oh God [pause] One of those great big personnel aerodromes.
GT: Westcott.
MS: Was it Westcott?
JW: I just can’t remember the name of the place.
MS: Was its Westcott?
JW: No. If you just turn that off I can go and get my logbook.
MS: Sure.
[recording paused]
MS: Ok. So Jack I understand you were a fill-in gunner.
JW: Yes. There were six of us that came off Defiants because they were taken out of service. And there were six of us posted to 75 and they were all people that had trained with me on Defiants. They were surplus to requirements on those squadrons. I think they used some of the Defiants for night fighters, but the chances of detecting anyone was pretty remote. So that’s how I happened to go to 75 and we were just slotted in where air gunners had probably taken ill etcetera etcetera. So, that’s how I became a gunner on 75. The first pilot was an Englishman and he broke his leg doing back flips over the couch in the officer’s mess. So he was [laughs] he was sent away to recover. And I think the next one was a Charlie Pownall. He was a New Zealander. And all the crew wanted to go to the Middle East except me because I’d met this blue-eyed beautiful lady. So I went to the CO who was Wing Commander Kay and said to him that I’d like to stay in England. Now, I wasn’t, I wasn’t dodging anything because naturally it was tougher over Germany than it was over the desert. So he said, ‘Wakefield, if you can get someone to take your place that’ll be ok.’ So one of my mates was Jack Milner from Hamilton, and he had spent most of his life up the Pacific and he hated the snow and ice in England. Absolutely hated it. So when I told him the story he said, ‘I’ll go.’ So Jack went out to the Middle East in my place and he did fifty two trips but he was killed out there. Well, later on of course I finished my thirty trips and then I was posted to a training school. Operational Training School. There I was what they called a screened gunner. I was screened from operational flying but I took crews out over the Irish Sea and we fired on drogue, a drogue towed by another Wellington. And then when we had finished firing we turned around and they would fire on us. And naturally we were firing out to sea. And during that period when I was training other people we were airborne one day, about half an hour, one engine cut out. And we weren’t very high. We were flying across England towards Finningley and we were in sight of Finningley aerodrome and the second motor cut out. So we crashed on the Great North Road. The pilot put the plane down perfectly on the road, but the wing, of course was too wide for the road and we collided with pine trees which ripped the Wellington around and broke its back and in fact broke it in half, and half went down the road. The crew, including myself and the front went through a hedge and the aircraft burst into flames. Being a pretty cunning critter I already had the escape hatch out before we touched and I was laying down with my feet up on the main spar to take the shock. As soon as we hardly stopped rolling I was going out through the top, but the flames were right on our tail. I got one hand all blistered and the chappie next to me, he got his face blistered as he got out the astro hatch. So that was a bit of a shocker. The rear gunner, who was a pupil, and I left him in the rear turret because generally it was the safest place in a Wellington. In this case it wasn’t because the aircraft was doused with fuel when the wing tanks were ruptured and the second half which is, you know is nothing to burn really, went up in flames and the poor chap was caught alive and burned alive, which is one of the horrible memories I have.
MS: So can you tell me what kind of planes you flew in and how they compared to each other?
JW: Well, of course a Defiant was a two-seater fighter and it was too slow for us. With the weight of the turret and the weight of the ammunition of the turret and the weight of the air gunner it was just too sluggish, too dead. The Wellington of course was the heavy bomber when war broke out and a very hard-working work horse. It carried four thousand pound, a four thousand pound bomb. And we went to many many targets in Germany where we were shot at occasionally. Came back once with forty two bullet holes in the aircraft, but most [laughs] most of the time when we got a barrage which appears very close we generally said something like, ‘ship,’ which is my magic word to get away with anything.
MS: Can you tell me about some of those ops that you went on? Any particular raids that stay in your memory?
JW: Well, I can. The memory’s a bit slim on that because they were mostly very similar. They were either good flights or tough ones. But I went to Hamburg five times which was one of the toughest targets to go to. And when the briefing went around they used to have the map of Europe under a sheet during the day. More or less for semi-secrecy and it had a red tape across to the target. And when it was unveiled and it was Hamburg you could hear this audible sigh amongst the aircrew of, ‘Oh God not again.’ I went there five times and you went up, I think it was the Dortmund Ems Canal because Hamburg’s an inland port. And all along that canal was armed and the worst thing was the searchlights because if a searchlight hit on to a Wellington say that was travelling at, we’ll say a hundred and fifty miles an hour they only had to move the searchlight a fraction to keep it on the aircraft. And although our pilots weaved and chucked it around and everything it was almost impossible to get out of. And what we did, there would generally be three on you at once. So they would pass you from one to the other and when you probably got down the end of say, three there would be another three pick you up. And of course if you were blinded by the searchlights you had absolutely no vision outside at all, it was just absolutely blinding. So that’s when a Wellington would be a sitting duck for anything that was hanging around but it never happened. But I remember one night flying past one while another Wellington was getting hammered with the anti-aircraft fire. We sneaked past and I was quite happy about that, another tough target was Berlin. I went there three times and of course part of the endurance I suppose is the distance of those two places. Especially Berlin, you know. All the way from the coast of France you were being tracked. But apart from that, I mean, you felt quite proud of yourself when you got back. You didn’t worry about whether you’d get back or not. But I will admit that on 75 we didn’t lose big groups. Not until I’d finished. And then a night bomber, [unclear] went down there were six crews lost that night. Which was thirty six young men that weren’t there for breakfast, kind of thing. But during my period there would be two occasionally. Mainly because the weather was so shocking. We were snowed in and the Germans were snowed in as well so there wasn’t a great activity. I mean it took me nearly six months to do thirty trips and quite often they would save you until the moonlight period. And I think I did seven in nine nights at one stage, something like that.
MS: So how was the morale on base when you talk about people not coming back. What was the general feeling amongst the crews?
JW: Well, when it was a question of say of two crews they’d just say, ‘Oh we hear old so and so didn’t get back.’ But see there was always a chance that they were a prisoner of war. We didn’t know that they were alive or dead and it may be weeks later before the squadron would know if they were a prisoner of war. So we didn’t worry too much.
MS: Was it hard to get close to people or to make friends? Especially as a fill-in crew.
JW: Well I’m glad you asked that. We were in close groups of friends. In other words chaps that I went there with, you know like the air gunners. I was mostly, you know, we’d go to the sergeant’s mess. We’d form a little group in one corner. And later on I went to the OUT. There was a New Zealander from Fielding and a New Zealander from Hawera and they both worked for Hodder and Tully. Now, this pilot, he was really good friends with us to. So much so that when his wife had a baby and baby clothes were very hard to get in England. Wool was hard to get so my wife gave her Beryl’s baby clothes. And Hugh Kempton was this pilot’s name and I always told my family he was one of the nicest guys I’d ever met. This was as a young man. Always smiling. He had real laugh lines around here. Why he latched on to us I don’t know. Probably because we were Kiwis I suppose. But normally crews mostly, especially crews that were trained in Canada, they would probably stick together most the time but generally if we went out for the evening it would be as our own crew. And we would get drunk, etcetera and stagger back.
MS: So what kind of things, what kind of things did you do in your off times? So you mentioned that you might go out for a few beers with your crew. What other kind of things did you do when you got some time off?
JW: Well, you couldn’t go far from base during the day because you might be called for briefing. This was an operational squadron. Mostly we were on base and you would kind of get in the mess and have a yack. In the case of the air gunners we’d go out and clean our guns. That kind of thing. You always had the odd button to sew on. Or write home. That, more or less just basic stuff like that. You know, mail home took quite a bit of time because everybody wanted to hear about you. I just wish that I’d told my family more. Because we were told to keep our mouths shut I kept my mouth shut. So they didn’t really have a clue what I was doing half the time. I wish I’d been a bit more open about it. I’m sure it would have meant more to them.
MS: So, you mentioned before about things that people did in the mess, jumping over sofas and things like that. What other kind of things did you get up to?
JW: Well, in the sergeant’s mess and I believe it was in the officer’s mess as well, there were these black footprints that went up the wall, and over the ceiling and down the other side. And they were just perfectly in the right place, you know, distance apart and everything. And evidently, they were put there by Popeye Lucas who was one of the early flight commanders of 75 Squadron. He was the culprit but I didn’t know ‘til after the war. I think I read Wing Commander Kay’s book that named him. There was that kind of thing. And we had a chap from Wellington. He was the guy who designed the 75 logo. If we were playing snooker and he missed the, missed the [pause] what do they call it? The pocket. You then took a shot at the lightbulb. So we finished up with no lightbulbs over the, over the tables. So we could only play in the daytime. We couldn’t play at night. We couldn’t play at night until the bulbs were replaced and believe me they’d be very slow in replacing anything during the war.
MS: So, Jack, did you and your, and your fellow crew members, did you have any kind of personal mascots or superstitions or anything that you did?
JW: Well I did. I think it was, I think it was my wife’s sister that gave me a little knitted doll thing that I put on my guns. More or less to please her. But something kept me safe, I don’t think it was that though [laughs] I think it was the prayers of my wife and my mother. We were, I don’t think we were really suspicious. Is that the word?
GT: Superstitious.
JW: No. I don’t think we were really.
MS: What about nose art on the planes? Did any of your planes have any good nose art on them?
JW: Had any what?
MS: Nose art.
JW: Oh yes, they did, Glenn would know this. On Y for York, it had a big soda syphon with a big hand squirting bombs out. And I think it was Glenn that showed the photograph at one of our reunions where I’m standing on a ladder in front of that, and there were several members. Bob Fotheringham was one, and probably a navigator but the fourth guy was the fighter pilot that had only dropped in for the day, and we said, ‘Hey you.’ But that’s, that’s the only one. And that [pause] that Wellington lasted about twenty trips before it went down. And roughly about three I suppose, three or four after I’d finished. That night as I explained before they lost six crews that night, and that was one of them. So —
MS: And I read that you used to drop bricks out of the plane with —
JW: Oh yes. I used to drop half bricks with rude words what Hitler could do to himself. And I think I used to imagine them coming down with a hell of a whistle and then plop, like into a bog [laughs] I mean I can imagine the Jerries ducking and running when they heard the whistle and then there was just a plop.
MS: Can you tell me about the thousand bomber raids?
JW: Yes. I can. I was, I was on OTU at the time. 23 OTU, and I was doing aerodrome control on the satellite. The chief flying instructor asked me if we’d, if a couple of us like to, Kiwis would like to do aerodrome control which is a duty pilot, which was only normally up to that time done by pilots. And we said we’d give it a go, being Kiwis of course you couldn’t have it any other way. So anyway we made a success of that. One day he rang me up and he said, ‘Wakefield.’ he said. ‘I’ll see you out on the runway in about forty five minutes. I’m going to do an air test and I’ll drop in and pick you up.’ And he said, ‘Bring your pyjamas and your tooth brush.’ And when I got in to the aircraft he asked me if I’d just test the hydraulics in the turret. And he said, ‘I can’t really tell you why I’m picking you up or what’s on but briefing’s at 4 o’clock.’ So 4 o’clock we went up and found out the thousand bombers was on. And what they did, they, they got all the front line squadrons in. Then all the OTUs produced fully trained crews that had just barely finished their training. So that’s how they got their numbers. I think the greatest number, I think was nine seventy, they never quite got the thousand if I remember rightly. But pupil crews they went as pupil crews. Us instructors went with other instructors. And in my logbook, I’ve got a Pilot Officer Monroe. And I think he’s the, he was the one ‘cause the timing was about right. He would have been a pilot officer and it kind of tied up with his other exploits in units. But anyways there was a Pilot Officer Monroe and I know he was a New Zealander. I only flew with him once, but I made a comment to one of my mates, ‘These bloody cow cockies are good pilots,’ [laughs] So, anyway we went on those three but with weather we were delayed a lot longer than they expected us to be together because all training stopped during that period. I think they were spread over three weeks. I’ve got the dates in there but I’m sure they were about three weeks. And they were all pretty easy raids because the heavy bomber force had gone in before us. We were on the end because we were more vulnerable. And in some of them we were more or less a picnic. Heavy fires burning, bags of smoke and flashes going off and all the rest of it. But anyway great publicity in England of course. That was, really gave the British people a lift because we’d been hammered before then.
MS: Can you tell me what it was like going to a briefing? What, what happened at a briefing. Can you just talk me through?
JW: Well we used to go in generally like there would be an assembly hall and there’d be a chart of our target for tonight up on the wall. And when the intelligence officer pulled that cover off the map of Europe we knew where we were going. That’s when I told you if it was Hamburg there was a big sigh. So that’s the first thing. The first time we’d know. Well, at one stage they withdrew all permission to live out because they reckoned that they knew where we were going before the aircrew did. Anyway, I still lived out despite orders because they had a friendly hole in the fence and I used to go out there and go home on the farm. Come back the next day about 2 o’clock, ready for briefing about 4.
MS: So you told me that one time you came back from a raid and you ran out of petrol on the runway just after —
JW: Yeah. Marham. Forget where we’d been now. And one motor cut out while we were taxiing and ran out of fuel. It was pretty hairy at times because the weather forecasts weren’t a hundred percent and your petrol load would be estimated. But if you struck an adverse wind of course that would gobble your petrol up. But sometimes they baled out over England if they were lost. They might not be able to land because of fog. Some went right across England and in to the Irish Sea and were lost. So it wasn’t just the operational side of it that was dangerous. There was a hell of a lot of other dangers as well. With Bob Fotheringham — one night we were ready to take off with a full bomb load on. He goes careering off the grass runway and then starts heading straight for the hangar. In other words his trim was all to blazes. So he throttles back, goes back to the end of the runway again ready for take-off. Trundles down the runway, gets up up to about sixty miles an hour and starts heading for the hangar again. Third time we got off but naturally I had no control over that so it didn’t make me very happy. Where we did take off, at the end of the runway was a damned anti-aircraft gun. You know, if you were a bit low that would bring you down. I didn’t like that there either. It’s just another little incident that I was telling you about. Life was full of incidents. Remembering them is the hardest part.
MS: Do you remember James Ward VC?
JW: Honestly, no. He was on the squadron at the same time and I’m positive about that but as we kind of congregated in our own little crew numbers to me he would just be a new chum. So I couldn’t, I couldn’t claim to know him. But you see I’m trying to remember seventy years ago now too. But I probably just looked at him as a new intake.
MS: Can you remember what it was like the first time you went on an operation? How you felt?
JW: Well, I suppose I was a bit apprehensive for a start. I suppose it would only be natural but I think that with the lack of detection methods we had a pretty good chance. And you’ve got to remember that if there wasn’t a moon it was absolutely black, you know there was no lights anywhere. You might see the odd flicker of a train being stoked as it went along the line but in full moon we were open. Really open. From any direction. We wouldn’t even see it coming. I didn’t like moonlight nights.
MS: And you told me before about the time when your aircraft identification —
JW: Oh the IFF. The IFF blew up on take-off and it had a detonator on it to destroy it in case of crashing. So the Germans couldn’t get access to any secrets. And ours blew up on take-off and the pilot called up asking whether to return to base or carry on. We were told to carry on. The ground defences would be warned that we were on our way out. And that was very very good. The only thing is they never told anyone that we were coming in, and we happened to be coming in over Southampton where the navy boys gave us a burst up the backside. It was quite severe naval barrage too. The next thing a fighter, a German fighter err a British fighter came up the side of us. Had a look at me. I had a look at him. And then he veered away which we were rather pleased about. And no doubt he was too. But I knew we were out of range. Probably a Messerschmitt 109. The chance of it being a German were pretty, pretty remote really. But anyway that was just another little incident that happened.
MS: So, as a rear gunner how, how difficult was it to detect whether an aircraft was friend or foe?
JW: Well to be quite honest. There is no other way to say this and there’s no other way to do it. If anything comes up behind you you squirt at them. You can’t possibly tell in the dark what it is. Now, he might be coming up behind you, not, being a friend but not knowing you’re there. But that’s just the way it happens. I had a friend that reckoned he’d put a burst into one of ours one night. He asked me what he should do. I said, ‘Just keep quiet.’ I said, ‘You’re a volunteer. You’re don’t want to waste all that training and experience.’ And it was just one of those things. He was very upset, and he didn’t know what to do but he did take my advice. There’s no point in admitting anything like that. Except to say that somebody come behind you, you knew and you gave them a burst. You can tell them that part of it. I didn’t feel a bit responsible for anything that got behind me. I would shoot at. In the dark and in the moonlight. I mean you can be in a classroom and they would show you all the designs and different shapes of aircraft. It means nothing at night. And of course around home bases you’ve got your navigation lights on. That’s a bit different. Although they did sometimes attack us on the circuit when we were taking off or coming back.
MS: How did you get on with the local people? Did you, did you meet a lot of the other local people and how do you think they felt about the Bomber Command being in that area?
JW: Well, the local people were fabulous for a start. And not only that they really, they really honoured us because Britain had taken quite a hard bombing. Our ships were being sunk at sea. Especially the merchant ships. And we were the only ones taking the war back to Germany. And I think for that reason we had a lot of respect. We were the main ones that were hitting back. The navy boys were fighting their backsides off in the Atlantic but the English people couldn’t see that. The bomber boys, they could hear them going and they could hear them coming back and then there was quite a bit of publicity in the papers. Where we had been to and all the rest of it. Now, I think that, I mean I for instance respected the English people. They were working in factories day and night. My own wife and her sister were working on munitions. And in the winter it was dark when they went to work and it was dark when they came home. So they were putting their backs into it. And the Home Guard were special. I was asked to break up a fight one night in a pub. And this warrant, English warrant officer who was in plain clothes because he was going to a dance, he said, ‘Would you come over here and sort this corporal out. This RAF corporal. He’s picking on a Home Guard. And that Home Guard,’ he said, ‘Is my local butcher. He’s a butcher during the day and home guard at night.’ So I went over to this RAF corporal who happened to be a boxing champion. Nobody told me that of course. And I went over, and I said to him, ‘What’s the trouble corporal?’ I was a sergeant at that time but a very new sergeant. ‘What’s the trouble corporal?’ He looked at my three stripes and of course there would be hundreds and hundreds of air crew around. You know, new sergeants and he would, he was permanent staff guy, so he’d more or less spit on us. So, anyway he called me a bloody sprog, so I hung one on him. And this warrant officer came over and hauled me off and he said, ‘Wakey, I asked you to stop a fight not bloody start one.’ So while, this guy’s hauling off me off my mate from Harborough goes and he gives this bloke another one. So the next day — overnight I heard that this guy was an RAF boxing champion. So the next day he sidled up to me and said, ‘I’ll take you on in the ring anytime you like.’ I said, ‘Do you think I’m bloody silly.’ There’s a difference between a roughhouse and, you know, boxing in a ring where a good guy can get at you and you can’t get at him. But anyway it all well that ended well but, you know, a sprog. Calling somebody that had been over Germany many many times a sprog. That was an insult. That’s why I bopped him.
MS: So you mentioned before about going to dances. What were the dances like in those days?
JW: Well I was a very, very poor dancer so I sat most of them out to be honest. I could go over Germany but I couldn’t face a girl to dance because I couldn’t dance properly. That, the chap from Hawera, Alan Campbell and the English warrant officer pilot. He was on rest with all — he was another instructor. We’d all done our thirty trips over Germany. So we totally resented being called a bloody sprog by a corporal who was PT corporal actually. I mean they have their job but I mean they were a bit officious and they were used to everyone jumping but I didn’t like being called a sprog so I filled his teeth in a bit [laughs] But I actually, I wasn’t, I was never bad tempered or anything like that. My natural nature wasn’t like that. But if someone insulted me that was different. You know, do unto others.
MS: When did you end up on 38 Squadron? Can you tell me about that?
JW: Yes, I served on 75. Then I went on instructions for instructing people for about nine months. Then I was asked to do the three, one thousand bomber raids. And a few weeks after that I was posted to the Middle East. And we went to this big aerodrome which I’m damned if I can remember. A massive one, a personnel base where they trained. Well they were checked crews because most of them had been trained. And we went into a big hangar there and you’d just mill round and if you see a pilot you ask him if he’s got a crew. That’s how we were crewed up. We’d never met each other before. Now, I happened to arrive there with two Englishmen off 75 Squadron and they said, ‘Are you in a crew, Wakey?’ And I said, ‘No.’ And they said, ‘Well, we’re not either.’ So then they came to me and they said there’s a Canadian crew who want to take,’ this was a wireless operator and a front gunner, ‘They want us, but they don’t want you because they’ve got their Canadian friend, rear gunner. So I said, ‘Well you go with them. I’ll find a crew.’ But they absolutely refused over several days. So the Canadians gave in and they decided they’d take me. Just shut that off for a minute.
[recording paused]
MS: So, Jack, can you tell me, you went to Mediterranean Command with 38 Squadron.
JW: Yes.
MS: Can you tell me how that was different to Bomber Command?
JW: Well I suppose it was only really different in living conditions for a start. We were under canvas. Apart from that the operational side of it was the same. And 38 Squadron dropped bombs, laid mines, dropped depth charges. In other words we were a work, you know, a maid of all works as far as bombers were concerned. And it was actually quite pleasant serving out there really. Apart from the odd dust storm.
MS: So can you just tell us the story about the trip where you didn’t get your lunch?
JW: Ah yes we were flying from Gibraltar to Lagos in Nigeria and it was eleven hours forty minutes. And after six hours I thought it was time to have something to eat. I called up on the intercom and said, ‘Any chance of any grub?’ And there was stone silence. And then the second pilot came down with some Jubes which I told him where to put them. And I was very very irate that they could draw our rations and couldn’t count to six as there was on that crew. And so it meant that by the time I got anything to eat it would probably be about thirteen hours. And so I was pretty irate and determined to see the CO soon as I got down to ask for a transfer from that crew. Anyway, I kind of forgave them. Got over it. Later on, when I was promoted, my pilot came to me and he said, ‘I see you,’ he didn’t, he congratulated me when I, when I got my pilot officer, he congratulated me. But when I got promoted to flying officer roughly about six weeks later because it followed me out from England — the commission. He flew at me and called me a little runt. So I said to him, ‘Well if you’ve got any grizzles about pay or promotion go to the Canadian air force headquarters. Don’t moan at me. I’m not even in your own air force. I’m not even the same trade.’ And he did a bit of a snarl. And after that I was asked to drive a truck from Suez to Benghazi for the air force. So while I was away on the road trip my crew went to Malta. And when I got to Benghazi the adjutant asked me if I wanted to follow my crew. And I said, ‘No. I’ll stay in North Africa.’ So we parted. Later on the second pilot came back to 38 Squadron in Benghazi and I did some trips with him. He was ok. I didn’t take it out on anyone else. I’m damned sure it was the pilots work. I don’t know whether he dumped my lunch or what happened to it. Anyway that’s one of things. But in four years of service I only struck two that were similar. Not a great deal to worry about.
MS: Generally, did the crews of different countries all get on quite well together or did you —?
JW: Oh yes. I suppose the only aircrew I took a bit of a dislike to were French Canadians. We didn’t feel that they were trustworthy. We felt that they were a bit devious. Apart from that we could fly with, you know, Irish, Scotch, English, South American, Australian, Canadian, you name it. We had one bloke from South America and I think he was a pilot officer and he started off to say Pilot Officer James Jose so and so and so and so. He had about twenty names. He was quite a likeable guy though. One of his names was named after an Irish hero that led some rebels down there in South America at one stage. He finished up with all these Spanish names and then his last name, his surname was O’Hegans. Quite strange.
MS: Were you all volunteers?
JW: Yes, yes. Definitely so that’s what made all the difference I think. You wouldn’t want reluctant air crew. Not really. It wouldn’t be fair. It wouldn’t be fair to them. It wouldn’t be fair to the rest of the crew.
MS: On 38 Squadron where were you based and what jobs did the squadron do?
JW: Our original based was Shaluffa near Suez. And as the 8th Army moved up we generally landed on a desert airstrip and tents could go up rapidly. After all they might be already standing when we got there. And we followed Monty right up. Our squadron followed Monty all the way up to Benghazi in different stages. We were just more or less south of Tobruk when El Alamein broke up. And we heard the thunder of the guns in the distance. Montgomery opened up with a thousand guns, artillery. And we could hear the thunder in the distance. We weren’t far behind the front line at any stage but we very seldom got raided. The Germans weren’t strong enough at that time to waste their bombs on airfields or anything.
MS: How many tours did you do for Bomber Command? And can you tell us a bit about how it felt when you completed your first tour?
JW: Well the first tour of course I went on leave and breathed a sigh of relief. And as I told you I was instructing as an air, flight sergeant air gunner. And then I was asked to do the aerodrome control which we took on. My mate and I with half a dozen guys that were waiting to be re-mustered for different reasons. Some would have changed their mind perhaps and thought it was dangerous. I never asked them their story. One tried to tell me. He said, ‘I don’t know whether you know my story, flight.’ I said, ‘Well I’m not worried about your story as long as you do what I tell you.’ And they stayed and disappeared and replaced. So we were always, there was about eight of us most of the time. And of course I used to let these guys a lot of unofficial leave, you know. We had an Englishman live not far away and I used to say him, ‘You can go home for the weekend but remember if you’re caught I know nothing about it.’ I let an Englishman go home to London without an official leave pass and he came back a day late so I really went him and he started to cry. And I said, ‘What the hell’s wrong with you?’ His wife had left him apparently when he got home when he got home. And I said, ‘Well you’d better bloody well go back and find her.’ He came back a couple of days later beaming from ear to ear. He was quite happy. But you know Kiwis are a bit like that. We’re adaptable.
MS: How did they decide it was your time to come back home to New Zealand and when did you come back?
JW: I can’t tell you the exact time I was away but all of a sudden, the word went through the grapevine that if you’d been overseas for a certain time, it might have been three years, you could apply to come home. So I applied to come home. I had a wife and child at that stage and we had to wait for, you know, our civilian ship. Not a troop ship. And we came home on The Akaroa.
[pause]
JW: Then when I got back here I was posted to, I think it was [unclear], once. I was introduced to Hudsons. And then I went down to Blenheim where I was aircraft recognition instructor because I’d done a course in England on that. And then we had a bloke there. Well known in broadcasting circles. Tusi Tala, Teller of Tales. He used to tell stories on a Sunday night on the radio. And there was four thousand men on that base, just out of Blenheim and they got us in the theatre there and gave a great spiel how everybody was still needed. And shortly after that you could apply to get out. So I thought it might be a good time to get out. Otherwise you’ve got thousands of army guys coming out at once etcetera etcetera. So that’s what I did except that I went back to a job I was doing before the war as an apprentice. The boss did his damndest to tell me not to join up, because he had been a soldier in the First World War. And their memories weren’t very nice you know. But being young I thought I was better than the whole German air force and why shouldn’t I give it a go. I mean we did have a certain bit of that about us. You know, we were as good as anybody. So I think that was one reason why we didn’t show any fear.
MS: So you had, from your logbook here you had a grand total of four hundred and ten and a half hours of day flying. And four hundred and nineteen —
JW: Night.
MS: And ten of night flying. Total flying time.
JW: Yeah. Night flying was always done in red ink. But you know some of our operations were over the sea. Over the Mediterranean looking for submarines. We might just be changing from one base to the other. So we’d go over the Mediterranean and then back in again and landed at our new aerodrome. That kind of thing. That was counted as an operation. Still dangerous of course. You know with, you know the reliability wasn’t a hundred percent by a long shot. We lost a wing commander doing this night stuff we were doing, you know. Going around the convoys. And they disappeared. No idea what happened when his rear gunner was washed up months later with his dogtags on. So you know he might have hit the drink, or he might have had engine failure and they never got a chance to make radio contact because we’re going round at a thousand feet. It doesn’t give you much time if you run into mechanical trouble. No matter where you flew in the air force. Training, operational or anything else there was men getting killed. I heard recently, and I think that it’s probably right, I think there was ten thousand killed in training in Bomber Command. We lost fifty five thousand over the six years and probably ten thousand wouldn’t be far wrong from what were killed in training accidents. Because they were taking these men, some of them were just like, boys, straight off the farms, out of the factories and turned them into four engine pilots. Some were bound to have crack up or emergencies that they couldn’t handle. But generally speaking they took their job very serious and they did it well. I’m very, very proud of the guys really.
MS: How do you feel about the way Bomber Command got treated after the war?
JW: Personally I think it was disgusting. When we were flying over Germany in 1940 the papers praised what we were doing. We were taking the flight to the enemy. And as soon as the war was over Churchill turned his back on us. But we were encouraged at that time and he made the great speech there that the so and so wind will reap the whirlwind because we were the only ones, apart from the navy guys, that were taking the war actually back to German soil, German cities. Making them wake up a bit. Our bomb load wasn’t that accurate, and it wasn’t heavy, you still do a hell of a lot of damage.
MS: So you went to the unveiling of the Bomber Command Memorial in London.
JW: Yes.
MS: Can you tell us how you felt at that ceremony and what that was like?
JW: Well, going back to the UK on a military aircraft I felt rather proud of the guys that were with us. I was proud of our exploits. And I was certainly very, very proud of the, rather sad to say, [unclear] there was twenty three thousand names at Runnymede and these were aircrew that have no known grave. In other words they would have come down in the North Sea. Probably in swamps, mountains or whatever, twenty three thousand. So when I see those kind of figures all I can think of are all those eighteen and twenty, and twenty two year olds that I joined with that were full of the joy of spring. And we had one guy with us, he had been washed out as a pilot and he was over the six foot. He decided to be an air gunner. He got in to the turret alright. Once you got in and sitting down you’d be alright. But when he got drunk his party piece was take somebody’s gate off and take it for a walk down the road, like a half a mile. Well there was gate he moved it took two of us practically all our time to lift it. In other words when he was drunk he didn’t know that anything was heavy [laughs] There was all those funny things, you know that happened. Those guys, he was another one that was lost. I think as far as I know I disagreed with Max Lambert because I went through the casualty list and he reckoned eight came back. I reckoned four. I do know this. That one Max Lambert quoted as coming back was lost over Greece because it’s in that book of obituaries, you know, from 1915 or something up to 1945. Jim Bolton — his name was in there. His aircraft collided with another one over Athens. But anyway whether it was four of eight I remember all of them. And I remember what their traits were, you know. Pubs and in the mess and all that and some were real characters. They were all decent guys though. They really were.
MS: Can you tell us a bit about what you did on that trip back to London?
JW: Well, he went to Australia. North Australia. And we spent twenty four hours there and they took us on a bus ride before we went to a hotel and naturally being in a hotel we were well looked after. And I had a friend Ray Tate from [unclear]. It was quite funny because he had hearing aids and my hearing was ok so if anyone knocked at the door I answered. And if there was question of going into lunch or meals he took me down and told me what was in the different terrines and all the rest of it. So we got on very well and I got mixed up one time and I got up early one morning to have a shower and I realised that something was wrong. And I said to Ray the next day, ‘I hope you didn’t hear me. I got up and had a shower about 1 o’clock.’ He said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘I just take my hearing aids out.’ So that’s why he didn’t hear me. But anyway he was, he was great. I really admired him and liked him, and I think a certain amount of it was reciprocated. We seemed to just get on so well but he was what you call a really decent New Zealander. But apart from that in England of course we went to [pause] I think we went to Duxford, I think. I think we went to Duxford. A big air force museum there. I get mixed up because I did a few trips with different people. And we went to one of the bases up north where they had a memorial service in the garden.
MS: Have you been inside any old planes since the war? Any of the planes you flew in during the war. Have you been in it. Maybe at MOTAT. The Lancaster there.
JW: I went up to MOTAT. I never went inside the Lancasters. Perhaps because I don’t know whether we were allowed to. But I had a look and of course the turrets are the same but I had a look. I went to [pause] what’s that museum in London? Air force one.
MS: Not the Imperial War Museum. The Imperial War Museum.
JW: No. No. It’s an air force museum.
MS: There’s one at, I think, at Hendon.
JW: Yeah. Hendon.
MS: Right.
JW: I went there and saw a Wellington and walked around it and I couldn’t, couldn’t believe I’d actually flown in one. It was so unreal. It really was. But anyway the funny little thing happened there. I was walking around the museum of Ray Tate and he said, ‘Oh look Jack. There’s a photograph of a Wellington.’ I said, ‘Yeah. I know that photograph. I’m on the end of it.’ And there was two ladies, carers within earshot. And they called all the others over, ‘Oh come over here and take a photograph. Jack’s on it.’ So one of them leant over them and I’ll tell you the story in a minute attached to it, said, ‘Did those grey haired ladies catch up with you in London?’ What actually happened, I had a mate in Blenheim. And I told the story to reporters at, over in Blenheim and I went to the papers and I think they published it on the aircraft newspaper on the way over. But my mate used to say to me that there was always two grey haired ladies waiting on London bridge to catch up with Jack Wakefield. And I used to tell him it wasn’t me and I didn’t do it. So anyhow when we went over to London, to the Memorial, after the ceremony a lady came up with tears streaming down her face and thanked, thanked me for being one that went over. Really filled in for them, you know, during that critical period of the war. And one of these carers came over later, ‘Jack one of those grey-haired ladies has caught up with you.’ [laughs] I mean the grey-haired ladies story was just a myth. It just happened when you start a funny rumour, you know.
MS: Can you tell me about the Memorial unveiling at Mepal? Oh sorry.
JW: At Mepal.
MS: Oh right. Sorry. So after the Memorial service in London can you tell me about when you went to Feltwell and Newmarket and Mepal.
JW: I can tell you. Yeah I can. We were in a pub in Feltwell and I was talking to locals and I said to them that the wife and I were billeted out on a farm close by. And this chap sidled over, and he said, ‘Do you know the name of the farm?’ And I said, ‘Yeah. Chalkwell Farm.’ He said, ‘I own that now.’ He said that little brick bungalow, old brick house that you had, there’s now two American ladies in there that are writers and they’re just tenants. And you know the chances of that happening are one in a million. That he happened to be in there. But at Mepal it didn’t mean much to me because I never served there. But it meant a hell of a lot to the Lancaster guys because I think they went to Feltwell and I think they went to Newmarket and then probably Mepal, I think. So it meant a lot to them, but the service was done in a rose garden and what impressed me was the way that the little church served refreshments and all that. You know, all volunteers through the church. They made us so welcome. And the minister said he was eleven when the bomber boys were milling around the village. So you know there’s quite a lot of stories about these people but I’ll never forget that rose garden.
MS: So that is all my questions Jack but is there anything else that you wanted to tell us about? Any other stories or memories?
JW: I don’t think so. Not off the cuff. I think that pretty well covers it. I just remember one little thing. I should have started off with it. When we went to Levin they gave us about five different shots. You know, Cholera and all sorts of things and the guys were going down on Levin station and falling over. So they stopped leave.
[pause]
MS: So, there are only two Wellington 75 Squadrons air crew left in New Zealand now. That’s you, yourself and Eddie Worsdale.
JW: That’s quite possible. There was, you know, there was, as I say a gunnery officer, he was a gunnery instructor. I was also intelligence officer on a small unit where we sent Maryland and light American bombers. Went out over the Mediterranean looking for downed air crew or enemy submarines. That was another job I did and on 38 I got hauled in to become messing officer, and the guy that was messing officer never returned. You know one of those stories, Glenn. I’ll just take over while he’s away. Alright. And the guy doesn’t come back so you’re stuck with it. So one day I was in the mess. And I was fed up with the Canadians were moaning because the tomatoes were fried and somebody else was moaning because they wasn’t. I did my stack. And I’m in the bar and I’m banging the bar with my fist and I’m saying, ‘Where’s the CO? Where’s the CO? I’ll tell him where to stick his messing officer.’ The next minute there’s a hand on my shoulder. ‘You want to see me Wakey?’ ‘Oh hello, sir.’ [laughs] It’s surprising how you can sober up in a millisecond. Lots of funny little things like that. I remember one night our beer had arrived. Used to come back in a Wellington bomber from the Delta when an aircraft came back from maintenance. It generally had a lot of beer for the officers, airmen and NCOs. And we would probably drink most of it in one or two nights. And I remember the CO climbing up the centre pole with somebody trying to rip his shirt off, you know. The next day, ‘Good Morning Sir.’ [laughs] He was an Irishman. A good, good guy. There was another guy that used to — we only had two records I think. There was a wind-up gramophone and one of these records was, “Arthur Murray Taught Me Dancing in a Hurry.” And there was one guy that absolutely hated it. So every time I saw him coming up to the mess tent I put it on. So he was, he ran in to it every time. in the end he lost his temper and jumped on it. That buggered that [laughs] we only had one record [laughs] You see a lot of that stuff was salvaged out of, or purloined out of Italian houses. Even our, we had a nice sideboard in the mess that the barman served behind and all that. All that furniture came from abandoned houses which had probably had the enemy through several times as well as us. And I remember one night we went and we were going to have a bit of a dance and we brought these American nurses over. About five or six. I went with the driver and we picked them up from the American unit and brought them over and they had quite a few dances with the guys. And then the party started to get a bit rough so I decided I’d take them back. So we took them back. And when I got back there was a guy playing the piano. He’d passed out altogether. There was a guy playing the trombone that could only lay on his back and go ‘uhhhh.’ Yeah. I don’t know what happened to the third one but anyway it was a real shambles. There was one night here. It was one morning I had terrible tooth ache and I had an abscess and I went to the dentist and this was out in the desert, you know, in a tent and he said, ‘I’ve got a,’ he said, ‘You’ve got an abscess Wakey and I don’t take them out normally until the abscess has gone down.’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t care if you pull my head off the pain’s so great.’ So he said, ‘Last night in the mess,’ he said, ‘I don’t know what happened but,’ he said, ‘I’ve got lumps all over my head.’ I said, ‘Yeah, I saw you doing roly polys back to your tent down the [unclear] Road,’ [laughs] Oh dear. Anyway, excuse me.
[recording paused]
Thank you very much Jack. Interview’s now concluded.
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Interview with Jack Wakefield
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:18:43 audio recording
Creator
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Miriam Sharland
Date
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2016-10-29
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Wakefield grew up in New Zealand and volunteered for the Air Force and the Army. After training, he flew operations with 75 Squadron from RAF Feltwell and with 38 Squadron in the Middle East. He describes a crash when he was instructing.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
New Zealand
England--Norfolk
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Hamburg
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Contributor
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Julie Williams
23 OTU
38 Squadron
75 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Blenheim
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
briefing
crash
crewing up
Defiant
love and romance
memorial
mess
nose art
Operational Training Unit
RAF Feltwell
RAF Finningley
searchlight
superstition
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/115/3594/ABaileyHH160501.1.mp3
c187bc9461210d109c6c12f4c52d0e9e
Dublin Core
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Title
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Bailey, Harold H
H H Bailey
Bill Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of an oral history interview with Harold Hubert 'Bill' Bailey (b. 1925, 2221922 Royal Air Force) and eight photographs.
Bill Bailey completed 37 operations as a rear gunner with 31 Squadron, South African Air Force as part of 205 Group. He flew from Egypt, Palestine and Italy and took part in supply drops to partisan groups in Italy and Yugoslavia.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bill Bailey and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Date
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2016-05-01
Identifier
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Bailey, HH
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GR: Right. This is Gary Rushbrook with Warrant Officer Bill Bailey on the 1st of May and we are at Bill’s house near Nottingham and I’ll hand you over to Bill who will tell us a little bit about his early life.
HHB: Right. Well, I was born in Stafford in 1925. 21st of January. And er we moved around different houses there.
GR: Brothers and sisters?
HHB: I had a brother. He was three years older than me. Mum and dad were, father was in the First World War but he came through it all right.
GR: Yeah. What was he in? Was he in the army?
HHB: He was in the royal artillery, yes.
GR: Royal artillery. Yeah.
HHB: And so I went to school there but unfortunately when I was about six or seven mother and father split up so just left there me, my dad and my brother and he worked at a local electricity works
GR: Right.
HHB: Doing general maintenance work, I think. Anyway, when I got to about nine he got offered a job and a house in Stoke on Trent. Shelton, Stoke on Trent so we moved there, and he went to do metre reading so of course I went to school then at Cauldon Road School in, in Shelton till I was just over fourteen. Course being fourteen in the January just over the Christmas period I had to go to the Easter to leave. So, whenever I was off school I always used to go back to Stafford to an aunt and uncle of mine. So, when they knew I was leaving school, unbeknown to me, they applied for a job at the Stafford Post Office as a telegram boy and the next thing I know was I got a letter, ‘You’re starting work on Monday.’ I left on the Friday and started work on Monday at Stafford, you know, as a telegram boy. I’d not even had an interview so I wonder -
GR: So you had two days at the weekend from school to going to work.
HHB: Yeah. I think there was a bit of something going there ‘cause I’d got an uncle who worked there at the Stafford Post Office. He was a supervisor there so I don’t know whether he pulled any strings. I don’t know but I never had an interview. So on the day I had to report I reported there and I saw the head postmaster. I think his name was Adams. Had a chat and out I went to, in to a room where all the other telegram boys were. They were five of us and our names all began with B. Bailey, Buckshaw, Buck, Beaver and Blakeman all began with B and of course the five Bees. So anyway I went out with one of the boys to get the hang of what you did and then I had to go and report to be measured for a uniform which was a few weeks coming but anyway eventually I got that. And so I stayed there until I was about just over sixteen, seventeen and then I got the option then of either going in to the, as a postman, the postal side or the engineering side.
GR: I presume war had already broken out by then.
HHB: Yeah, war had broke out -
GR: Yeah,
HHB: September 3rd. Yes. I’d been at work since April. So, yeah so I was there as I say seventeen and then I went on the telecoms side, Post Office telephones, as an apprentice, two year apprentice. So, of course time went on. It was five year, five year apprentice sorry. I er of course by this time all my friends who had gone on the postal side had been called up. Unfortunately, or fortunately whichever the case you look at it I was classed as a reserved occupation. Course with telecoms which in them days was probably more important than what it is now.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, I did one or two courses. Went to in Birmingham and that was there once when they had a bit of a raid. Fortunately, it wasn’t in the part I was on. And I got a bit, thought I wish I’d, wanted to join the air force when I left school. I remember the woodwork teacher saying what are you going to do? I said I’d like to go in the air force and that was in 1939. Anyway, so I saw this advert in the paper air gunners said they wanted. It was only a very little slip so I cut it out, didn’t tell anybody, filled it in and posted it off. Course I was still living with my aunt and uncle then in Stafford and, and out of the blue I get a letter back to go to Birmingham Air Crew Attestation Centre, ACAC, on such and such a date for three or four days for interview and tests.
GR: So, you actually filled in a form that was in the paper.
HHB: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: To join up.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Incredible.
HHB: It was only a little thing.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A big, “Join the Air Force” and this little thing. Anyway, I went there and we had various tests, eye tests.
GR: I’m just going to pause it for one minute.
HHB: Yeah. Right. So I went to the Air Crew Attestation Centre at Birmingham and had fitness tests and general knowledge test and eyesight test and goodness knows what and then I had to [parade eventually in front of I don’t know what rank they were now, got quite a number of rings on their sleeves, ‘Why do you want to be an air gunner?’ Blah blah. ‘I don’t know why. Because I want to be,’ you know. ‘What’s your parents say?’ Well I hadn’t told my dad. I hadn’t told my auntie. So I said, ‘Well they don’t mind.’ ‘What about your employer?’ That was the post office telephones. ‘Have you asked permission?’ I said ahem, ‘Yes.’ I hadn’t.
GR: You hadn’t.
HHB: So they said, ‘Right.’ So they’d got some model aeroplanes on the table. ‘What’s that?’ ‘A Blenheim.’ ‘What’s that?’ ‘A Wellington.’ ‘What’s that?’ ‘Junkers 88.’ ‘You know your airplanes don’t you?’ Anyway, I, that was more or less it. Off I went. Later on they called us all in, called the names out you’ve been accepted. You’ll be hearing from us. So of course I went back to work at Stafford in Telecoms and I got a letter from them, ‘We haven’t received a letter from your employer giving you permission.’ So I wrote back and said, ‘It hasn’t come back yet.’ Anyway, they must have got fed up with this because they wrote to the area manager at Stoke on Trent and I got instructions to go to Stoke to see the area manager. So I walked in, I forget his, Sefton I think his name was. I walked in and, ‘Oh yes, Bailey. You’ve applied to join the air force.’ ‘Yes sir.’ ‘You didn’t ask me if you could go.’ ‘No sir.’ Oh well. Anyway, had a general natter. He said, ‘Alright, well I’ll let you go. I’ll write to them and say you can go.’ About a fortnight after that I got my call up papers.
GR: Right.
HHB: October and off I went down to the usual place, Lords Cricket Ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Found my way across London. I’d never been to London before at eighteen and a bit, just over eighteen years old, you know. Anyway, I got to lords cricket ground and we all formed up. ‘Right, in here.’ We went in a long room which everybody else must have done as well.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Drop your trousers. Well people, well, I forgot to say I’d been in the Home Guard for a while. I was underage but of course the captain wanted, the lieutenant wanted to get enough recruits to make him captain he let me go in, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, I’d been used to all this sort of thing, you know when we went on camp. So of course I dropped my trousers, ‘C’mon drop your trousers’ and then of course the MO came along with his stick. Right, everybody, ‘Alright off you can go.’ So I walked out then and then they called out names and we were billeted in blocks in St Johns Wood. Blocks of flats. And we was there a fortnight and we had general tests again. I had two teeth out but they wouldn’t let you fly, they said with filled teeth.
GR: With fillings in your teeth.
HHB: With filling yeah so I sat in this chair and put my head back and getting ready to shout and this lovely blond face came over. She said. ‘It’ll be alright.’ Well, I couldn’t shout out then could I but anyway I had that out and that was it. I then waited. We were going to Bridlington to ITW of course so we went up to ITW and we was there for six weeks.
GR: That’s initial training isn’t it?
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: While we was there they decided that people who were higher qualified in the course would go straight to Dalcross Gunnery School instead of going to Elementary Gunner School at, was it Cosford? So, many of us went straight up to AGS Air Gunnery School at Dalcross, outside Inverness, for a three month course. So, by the time I got there it was just before Christmas, I think. Anyway, we went there and did the usual training on Ansons like we all did, you know, shooting and all the rest of it and it was quite a, I earned a bob or two there because we used to do skeet shooting. Clay, clay shooting -
GR: Yeah. Clay pigeon shooting.
HHB: We always used to put a bob in and I was quite good at it. I don’t know why but I was so I always used to earn a bob or two.
1049
GR: A little bit extra.
HHB: I got friendly with a WREN there and used to go to Inverness to see her and one day I saw the gunnery instructor there. So, the next day at lectures he was saying, ‘And don’t get sitting in the YM looking all dewey eyed at the girl with you,’ he said. ‘You need to be air gunners.’ Knowing that he meant me. Anyway, I passed out the course and went on leave. I got a telegram, ‘Report back.’ Went back. Being sent overseas. Oh God.
GR: Straight away.
HHB: Yeah. So what I got I got kitted out. I got a fortnight’s leave and the day after had to report to 5 PDC, Personnel Despatch Centre at Blackpool up there. You were just hanging about till I got the boat out from Liverpool. Didn’t know where we was going although the rumour was Cairo. We set off on this boat and found that we found out we were being sent out to the Middle East. Cairo. Got to Cairo. Landed at Port at Suez and was there for two or three days in tents and that was an experience because the people who’d been in these tents before us had been a load of Indian troops and their health habits weren’t very good. So we had quite a few -
GR: I can imagine.
HHB: In the sand.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Course we were only sleeping on sand on ground sheet. Anyway, eventually we all eventually got sent up to Cairo.
GR: Did you have any inclination, ‘cause obviously you’d joined you were an air gunner.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And obviously the natural progression would have been Bomber Command in England did you have any idea where you were going or -
HHB: No. No.
GR: What was going to happen to you?
HHB: No.
GR: No.
HHB: We were sent from, we got off the boat at Suez. We went up to Cairo. That was another PDC and there we just milled around waiting to be posted to OTU and I was sent to 76 OTU in Palestine at Aqir which was training for bombers. So, I finished up there. So we got on the train from Cairo across the Sinai Desert up. That was a journey on its own as well and that’s where my [?] big things they were [?]and were always something difficult to pack.
GR: Right.
HHB: So I said I’m fed up with this blooming thing. So, somebody said, ‘Don’t you want it.’ ‘Not really.’ The next minute it went out the window. It’s in the middle of the Sinai Desert somewhere. Anyway, we carried up to Palestine and we were in a PDC there and it was from there we sent to Aqir and there we got crewed up. Just went out one day. We didn’t have a hangar to go in. Just [parade] milled around the parade ground, get crewed up, you know. So I didn’t know what to do and all of a sudden this chap comes to me, ‘Have you got a crew?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Come on then I’ve got one, I’m a pilot’ So, we went and he was a South African Van der [Valt]. So we had a chat and he said, ‘Do you want to come, join me?’ So that’s how I joined him and then we got a navigator, bomb aimer and what have you and that was it. We started to fly doing our training but also flying on Wellingtons, you know.
GR: Right.
HHB: And that was interesting. Of course I flew Wellingtons of course we just had one that was going on a six or seven hour cross country flight and we’d only be air borne about forty minutes. I’m sitting in the rear turret and I thought, ‘Am I seeing things?’ Sparks come by and then bits of something was flying by, rings and pieces. I said, ‘Is the port engine alright skip?’ He said, ‘We’re just looking at it.’ I said, ‘Well it looks like it falling to pieces. There’s bits flying off it.’ So we feathered it and we had to turn back so but by then the starboard engine started perform so we decided to land at Lydda. So we called up, got clearance to land, coming in it was a Liberator, heavy con unit [ydda was and this Liberator was cutting out so we had to stagger around in the air on this one good engine. Well this happened twice.
GR: God.
HHB: And the third time, the second time of course, the engine, the starboard engine just packed up so we finished up in a big heap on the desert.
GR: Crash landed.
HHB: Crash landed but fortunately we was alright except the wireless operator. A chap named [Stoner] The wireless operator’s table with his equipment on it collapsed and he’d broken his leg so we lost, lost him but there was another one there without a crew so we got him. Chap named Shelby from Halifax. So we went, the MO called us in. He said, ‘Everybody alright? Anyone banged their head?’ Well I had but I didn’t say yes. So he said, ‘Alright then. Off you go then.’ So that was it.
GR: That was it.
HHB: That was it and the next, that night we were flying again on a night trip.
GR: On Wellingtons again.
HHB: On Wellingtons again.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Again.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Yeah. The story is that that Wellington that we crashed in had just come back from a seven hundred hour inspection. Major inspection. So somebody had slipped up there.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, we staggered on through that and then we got leave in, well we went to Alexandria because I was friendly with a chap named Pearson and he was engaged to a girl in, she was a South African girl but living in Egypt and we went to their house and billeted there for our leave and then we came back again and then we were sent down to [Aberswayo] which was a con unit, heavy con unit for Liberators. So we did about a month course there and of course with being a South African crew half the crew were South African. The pilot, navigator and flight engineer were South Africans. We hadn’t got a beam gunner then. And the rest of the crew, bomb aimer, two gunners and a wireless operator were RAF. Anyway, we got sent to South African Air Force base depot at [El Marsi] just outside Cairo and there we stopped there then waiting for a posting to a squadron which eventually came about the end of September time and sometime in September 1944 and bundled on to a Dakota as far as to about Tunis and then we got American Air Force Commando aircraft flying across to Bari and from Bari we went to what they called the advanced SAF base depot at Bari waiting to be posted to a squadron.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And about October time, beginning of October time, we went to 31 SAF squadron based at Fuji, well [Saloni] just outside Foggia, and that’s where we started to fly our ops.
GR: Yeah. How many was on the Liberator? What was the full –
HHB: There was eight crew. There was -
GR: Eight crew.
HHB: Pilot, flight engineer and navigator, mid upper gunner, rear gunner, bomb aimer, beam gunner.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So, but we didn’t get the beam gunner till we got to the squadron.
GR: Right.
HHB: And all of a sudden this young lad, forget his name now, it’s in the logbook, he rolled up. He was a warrant officer and the South Africans when they were posted to a squadron they were immediately made up to warrant officers.
GR: Right. So were you all flight sergeants at the time.
HHB: Sergeants then, we were.
GR: Sergeants.
HHB: And he come straight from gunnery school as a, they didn’t even go through OTU and con unit. So, anyway, he was a warrant officer so there we were with this, but we started flying various ops, you know. Various supply drops, bombing raids.
GR: What was your first operation Bill?
HHB: Do you want to look at the logbook.
GR: Yeah I’ll just pause it for a sec.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So we’re just having a look at Bill’s logbook and yeah your first operation, I’m just looking there, 14th November.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: 1944 yeah. Supply drop to Yugoslavia. What was that like? I mean -
HHB: Well, you know, we was all a bit, the skip had already done his second pilot trip to know what was what, like. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. So, yeah, just looking at the logbook. Yeah, and the first, the first one was a supply drop. Did you know it was a supply drop or did you think -
HHB: Oh yes we’d got supplies in the big canisters in the fuselage.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And we were looking for a, I haven’t got it there but we had a certain area to go to and look for the area to go to and look for this, perhaps a cross or a triangle or something in flames or lights on the ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And then they’d signal us you know somewhere to drop. They were dropped by parachute, you know
GR: Yes.
HHB: And er yes that was, that was the first one. They’d break us in gently you see.
GR: Yes.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And just looking at the logbook. Yeah, there was a couple of supply drops.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And then the, I think your third operation.
HHB: Yeah. Bombing.
GR: Was bombing some German troop concentrations. So that was the first bombing run.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So what was that like, Bill?
HHB: Well it was, it’s a long time ago now.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: It was just another trip like, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Nothing much exciting happened on it. This one to [Sarajevo].
GR: Yeah. So -
HHB: So that was, that was, bomb doors froze up so we couldn’t drop the bombs.
GR: So the bomb doors froze -
HHB: Yeah, we was.
GR: Closed.
HHB: Twenty thousand feet, you see.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And yeah, they froze up. So, we had to drop the bombs, come down and drop the bombs in the sea as I say.
GR: And return to base.
HHB: Jettison in the sea [heavy light flak and that at Sarajevo]
GR: Flak. Yeah.
HHB: We went there in daytime as well with these.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But most of the raids at this time were the first one was -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A daylight one that one.
GR: So most of the operations were at night but then your first daylight operation 19th of November.
HHB: November.
GR: 1944.
HHB: Yeah. That was River Bridge in Yugoslavia.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I think the Germans were retreating through Yugoslavia.
GR: Yes.
HHB: And they wanted this bridge cutting. I don’t know whether we hit it or not. I can’t remember now. Probably missed it. So, I carried on like this until I finished my tour which was just before VE day.
GR: And I think I’ve seen there’s a total, total -
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Of thirty -
HHB: Eight or nine or something
GR: Thirty seven operations. We’re just going back.
HHB: Yeah there’s one, no, should be this one here.
GR: Should be, should be here Bill. Thirty three. That’s March.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And then, yeah, there’s one in April there.
HHB: Yeah. Thirty six, thirty seven. Oh it’s there thirty seven.
GR: Yeah. So your last operation was on the 5th of April.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Well your tour, it probably wasn’t the last operation by the squadron but certainly your tour -
HHB: Yeah. My tour, yeah.
GR: Which was thirty seven operations so I mean over those thirty seven operations any close calls or was it a relatively -
HHB: The usual. We got trapped in searchlights over the [Rhone] one day. A couple of fighters we saw and I’ve got it somewhere. Got it somewhere
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Couple, couple of fighters we saw -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But we evaded them when we saw.
GR: Yeah. Did the squadron suffer many casualties while you were there?
HHB: No. No, not a lot.
GR: No.
HHB: No. Not a lot. We had one or two. They suffered a lot just before I joined them because they were on the Warsaw raid.
GR: Yes.
HHB: And they lost quite heavy then and then after that just before I joined them and this is why we went and then they sent aircraft up to drop supplies in Northern Italy to the Italian partisans and it was in the mountains and they’d got to get in to this valley to drop them. Of course if you dropped them too high they just floated away you see. You’d got to get down.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A lot of these places were in valleys so you’d got to get down to about six or seven hundred feet just or to get just the height for the parachute to open.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Otherwise they floated away.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And when we got back they were in radio contact. When we got back they’d tell us whether it was a good drop or not. So they sent them to this Northern Italy and we lost six that night.
GR: God.
HHB: One has never been found. They found all the others crashed in the mountains but this one that’s never been found and one of the, the bomb aimer was a New Zealander and I had a letter from his, his daughter. She lives in, I can’t think off-hand. Anyway -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway she [that was that] an advert anyone on 31 squadron, used to be a series on the television, comrades, old comrades to get in touch.
GR: Yeah. Yes.
HHB: And this one anyone on 31 SAF squadron so I rang it and it was her husband [and I know] cause he left, he was one of the crews that we’d gone to replace. He’d died just a week or so before us -
GR: You got there.
HHB: We got there. So [I’m still in touch?] every Christmas still get a card from her I send one to her you know but she had a plaque laid, made and laid in this village near where we were dropping the supplies.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And it’s mounted there in English and in Italian. The crews name and all the -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he was, he was actually a New Zealander but her mother was English. She’d married, married him and she was born, she was, her mother was conceiving while he was on ops.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he was killed before she was born.
GR: That’s right.
HHB: So that was why she was trying to find out anything about him.
GR: Trying to find anything about it all so -
HHB: So we didn’t, but um -
GR: When you were doing supply drops how many aircraft were flying in the squadron.
HHB: Well, there’d perhaps be -
GR: Roughly. You know, just -
HHB: Eight, ten.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But there was a group you see. The whole group went.
GR: Ah.
HHB: It was 205 group.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And that was the heavy bomber squadron and that came all the way up through the desert.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I’ve got a book there, “Bombers Over Sand and Snow”. It’s all about 205 group coming up from the start of the war up through Egypt and into Italy.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So this was 37 squadron, 45 squadron. There was quite a group of -
GR: Yeah. So, 205 group.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Would do.
HHB: But we were the only ones, on our squadron was 31 squadron South African and 34 South African. We were the only ones on that group with Liberators. The others were still on Wellingtons.
GR: Right.
HHB: But by January ‘45 they’d all converted to Liberators.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But so on these trips sometimes there was Liberators and Wellingtons as well. Yeah. And also on the unit was an American squadron, whatever they called them, the fortresses.
GR: The B17s. Yeah the B17s. Flying Fortresses.
HHB: So [right Mick] so we er, but we had quite a lot of activity during the daytime. We were going up at night. Well, all we was landing on was pierced steel planking.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: For runways and as the weather deteriorated and in ’44, ‘45 at that time was the worst winter in living memory in Italy. Snow, rain, everywhere was muddied up. We wasn’t in, all we lived in was tents. We didn’t live in huts. It was tents. Eight man tents. But eventually a friend of mine, Shorty Pearson, we were both on the same squadron, we got a small two men tent which was better but there was no room in it.
GR: No.
HHB: I mean, we eventually to sleep on we were sleeping on the floor or on the ground sheets you know but eventually we got the bomb tails when the bombs came the tails were protected by a, they were like a small, looked like a stool about [eighteen] inches high.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And about a foot square.
GR: And that was protecting the fins on the bombs.
HHB: Protecting the fins, yeah. So we eventually collected enough of them to make a bed which only left a narrow gap in between but at least we was off the floor.
GR: Incredible.
HHB: So, but so -
GR: So -
HHB: What happened, what I was going to say was that in the January time we were starting the Americans didn’t want the Libs there cause they were breaking the runways up so we all had to move off to [Foggamin] to a concrete runway.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: The main airfield at Foggia. So after one raid I haven’t got it in my book but after one trip we had to land there and they picked us up in lorries and took us back to base
GR: Right.
HHB: And of course that was tough on the ground staff having to service the aircraft out, you know, there and all the equipment. Anyway, we managed for a few weeks and er, till the, till the place had dried out a bit you know and it was fit for us to, for the Liberator cause they were breaking up the runways.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the perimeter track was all hard core. There was nothing permanent, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the conditions there were only two, three buildings on, on, on the squadron. Well there was four actually, buildings. One was the church which was wooden, one was the sergeant’s mess and the airmen’s mess, the officer’s mess and the ops room and one of the other farm buildings was used as a parachute section and that was it. The rest of us were all in, under canvas
HHB: Yeah.
GR: All through the winter.
GR: ‘Cause Foggia was a big base wasn’t it?
HHB: Yes, there was -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: In that area I think there was eight airfields around Foggia.
GR: Right.
HHB: And you’d be sitting there and you’d hear a boom and you’d see a big cloud and oh another Liberator crashed or gone up, you know. You heard a big bang. That was a Wellington, another Wellington gone up. Yeah. But of course we were losing a lot to accidents, you know.
GR: Yeah. Probably more to accidents than -
HHB: Probably.
GR: Yeah, than fighters and -
HHB: Anyway, thinking about the squadron you’d be lying there on your bed and also the Americans, the South Africans had army ranks they weren’t pilot officer and that they were second lieutenants, lieutenants, captains.
GR: Right.
HHB: And warrant officer. The station warrant officer was a sergeant major. He’d be out there and you’d hear, ‘Wakey wakey. Following crews. Ops room half an hour.’ Look at your watch, 5 o’clock.
GR: Oh.
HHB: Oh no. And you’d lie there hoping he didn’t call your name out and you’d hear him say Captain van der [Valt]. Oh God that’s us. Got to get up and so it was down to the ops room and while we were in the ops room and while we were in the ops room getting briefed and that the cooks would be getting a breakfast of sorts, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Then we’d go and have breakfast and take off would be about two or three hours later, you know. Yeah used to lie there. The electricity supply was the [eight wire] all the way through the camp and we used to just wrap a piece around and take a lead to your place and try and hope it was waterproof. Half the time you know it would go on and go off of course, you know.
GR: What was the food supply like in Italy cause obviously back in England it was quite severe rationing.
HHB: Yeah well we was rationed there. I mean it was corned beef with everything.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: One day I went in the mess and this, ‘Oh fried fish.’ Opened it up. It was a piece of bully beef in batter.
GR: Bully beef in batter.
HHB: Yeah and the coffee, they had coffee but that was in a big urn and you -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Used to dip your mug in, you know.
GR: And drink it.
HHB: ‘Cause it was, what annoyed us with the Americans there they got a little portable generator. Every tent had got these little portable generator putt putts as they were called, they actually had one on the Liberator as alternative power supply. When they landed you switched it on, you know and this was so you got these on little stands and every tent had got one and they just used to start it up. Lights. Yeah.
GR: So definitely the RAF was
HHB: They got, they got –
GR: Poor relations to the Americans.
HHB: Yeah. They got, they got duck boards all over the place. Yeah. And they’d even got a cinema allowed us, certain nights, to go to the cinema but –
GR: Oh right.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: What happened at the end of tour? Did you stay in Italy or –
HHB: No. After the end of tour I got sent back up to Naples which was a closure of a PDC for despatching people.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I got put on a ship back to Suez and on the way back VE day came in May so by the time I got to Cairo back to [El Marsa] again which was another Cairo air force dump it was VE night.
GR: VE night. Yeah.
HHB: And that night, that day, a lot of WAAFs had just arrived. The first big load of WAAFs to come out I think and they were in this camp as well but that was all [laughs] wired off you know and so it was about one hundred and twelve degrees there that night. Cor it was hot. Anyway, I stopped there for a while until I got my posting home. I suppose, of course I was young and they got me back to retrain me you see but they didn’t realise there was a class B man who was going to get released anyway.
GR: Right.
HHB: I didn’t know this. Anyway, I got home and went to Catterick, Catterick RAF camp and that was a despatch centre, you know. Went and had an interview
GR: Yeah.
HHF: And decided, they sent me to Cranwell on a signals course. Being telecoms I suppose they thought I’d know all about it you see.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HHB: So I went there and just, can’t say that, we learned a lot about radio and all that and how to operate the VH direction finder. Anyway eventually got posted from there again, abroad. Up to Blackpool again 5 PDC and I flew out to India.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: In a Stirling.
GR: Out to India in a Stirling.
HHB: Yes. I’ve got it here.
GR: Was there any, had victory in Japan been achieved by then or -
HHB: No. Yes. Yes.
GR: Yes oh yes so there was no possibilities of them sending you out to the Far East.
HHB: [] sent to India. Stradishall to Castel Benito seven hours. Castel Benito to Cairo West, five hours. Cairo West to [?] or something, five hours.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Mayapur in India five hours. Mayapur to Pune four hours. Pune to [arro] something.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And then -
GR: And so a long trek to India.
HHB: Yes and I went right down there and eventually got down there and eventually were at a place called [Momatagama] in Ceylon.
GR: In Ceylon.
HHB: Just below Kandy. Actually it was Kandy airstrip. A little airstrip in the middle of nowhere.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the radio set was a little TR9 which was something they had pre-war, you know. Anyway, and all they did there was sit in flying control and you’d open up 6 o’clock till two or two till six, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And people would call up and, you know, planes would land, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: At one time it was very busy when Kandy had been very busy when Kandy was the Headquarters for SEAC.
GR: Yes. South East Asia Command. Yes.
HHB: Yeah, but it was very quiet. There was, passed one aircraft a week sometimes. Lovely sitting there it was, doing nothing and then I got posted to a place called Mowathagama which was, this airstrip was called Mowathagama.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I went from there to [Cowgla] so I flew down there in a little um Expediator.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: An American two engine -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Passenger plane. Twenty five, fifty minutes to [?], [?] to Mowathagama forty five minutes. To [Cowgla] and that was in Ceylon.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I went there and got put on a Liberator direction finder and you’d sit there on the beach. Lovely sand. Blue, blue sea. Palm trees.
GR: Warm weather.
HHB: Ooh.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And somebody’d call up ‘bearing,’ so you’d give them a bearing, you know, and not very often. Only two or three times while I was there and so that was -
GR: Around about February ‘46.
HHB: No, I was there then.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Yeah. It was February.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: ‘46 I went there and I as I say sat on the beach doing nothing. Six till two, two till six. The early shift was long but that one wasn’t and when we wasn’t flying we used to go swimming. A load of, after the war the landmines, the mines they’d got, the sea mines, they took them and blew space in the rocks for swimming pool.
GR: Right.
HHB: So that was -
GR: Good use of the mines.
HHB: Yeah. Swimming up there. And so I was there until March and one day I got a call to go to the adjutant’s office. Knocked on the door and went in. ‘Ah yes.’ He said, ‘Your class B release has come through.’ Well that was the first I knew about it. So he said, ‘Do you want it? Go outside and think about it.’ So, went outside, shut the door, knocked the door and went in and said, ‘Yes.’ So, good, I came out on B but the best bit of it was coming home. I got about, the records for about twenty five other airmen. And he said, ‘Here you are. Look after these’ and you’ll be starting from wherever it was now going up to Pune eventually to fly back home from Pune.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I got these records all the time, had to look after them, a pile -
GR: A great big pile of records.
HHB: A lot of these people I mean I was only twenty one then, you know these were time expired, been out there five years.
GR: Five years.
HHB: Yeah and one of them was a sergeant getting demobbed and he was most upset. Of course he’d got no family back home.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he’d been in air force all his life and he was coming home. He was really upset he was but all the others, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: They were looking forward to it so the last I saw of them we went to Hednesford. There we went through the demob thing and the suits and all.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Whatever you had. I had the sports jacket and flannels and mac and shoes and shirt and what have you and we got no money then but I found a postal order. I think it was for a pound that the unit had been on when I was in telecoms. Post office engineering sent to me in Italy so I went and cashed this thing so four or five of us went out that night on this pound and had a drink and it lasted -
GR: Out on the town with a pound.
HHB: Yeah. We drank, drank what we could out of it. I mean in them days six shilling for a pint.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HHB: So, the last I saw of them I jumped off the truck at Stafford station ‘cause that was the station they took us to. They went on the train and I picked my bags up and walked home. Course I lived in Stafford at the time.
GR: And that was it. You were out of the RAF.
HHB: Out the RAF. Yeah.
GR: When I came back I flew from Pune to Barakpur. Barakpur to [Shiboor, Shiboor] to Lydda, Palestine, Lydda
GR: Yeah.
HHB: To Castel where we crashed, Lydda. Lydda to Castel Benito.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Castel Benito to Waterbeach.
GR: Waterbeach.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So coming home, a total of thirty one hours -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Flying time.
GR: Yeah, that was in a Liberator.
HHB: in a Liberator.
GR: And the flight engineer, I said to the flight, you know, I said I was on Libs, you know.
HHB: Oh he said do you want to test the undercarriage for me. Course when you went in a Lib the tricycle undercarriage always checked the nose wheel.
GR: Yes.
HHB: ;Cause it didn’t always lock in position. Had to go down and see a little red button there and he said, I said, ‘No, I’ve done it. I know what’s going to happen when I get down there and especially over these places, desert and that, that’ll be sand’ -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Sandpaper on your face. I said, ‘No. Thank you very much. I’m not doing that.’ That was another job for the air gunner by the way. When we came in to land in a Lib you always had to come out the turret because it was too heavy, the tricycle, the undercarriage would be up and down.
GR: Up and down yes.
HHB: It would hit the ground if you were in there so we had to come out of there to the beam position and that was our landing position.
GR: Landing position, yeah.
HHB: But when you landed you had to open the hatch and the pilot was on the port side. You had to get the Aldiss lamp and shine it up, ‘Up a bit. Hold it there,’ So he could see the edge of the perimeter track. Course the landing lights were shining too far in -
GR: Too far in front.
HHB: So you had to sit there with all the mud and muck coming into your face. Of course they were muddy, muddy ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Getting splattered yeah. You were dirty when you got out, you know. Yeah. And that was your job. You had to check the two red lugs come down on the undercarriage, you had to make sure -
GR: That they were down.
HHB: They were down and checked the front. I never did the one on ops but I couldn’t get down the bomb bay.
GR: No cause you’d be -
HHB: Cause with the kit on. The bomb bay was only about -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: [eighteen] inches wide, if that. I couldn’t get through them without taking your clothes off you know your harness, Mae West.
GR: Couldn’t’ do that.
HHB: And all that. Which you didn’t. So that was my time in the air force.
GR: Your time in the air force. What happened after the war? Did you -
HHB: I went back to Telecoms
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I stopped there forty eight years.
GR: Forty eight years.
HHB: Forty eight years in total. I had forty six years as Post Office Telephones and two years as British Telecoms
GR: Two years as British Telecom. Yeah.
HHB: Yeah but by then it wasn’t the same. The spirit had gone out of it. I mean I’ve stood in manholes when I was a jointer before I got promotion and that, like this, water up to here holding the joint up in the air so it didn’t get wet.
GR: Can you imagine that now with health and safety?
HHB: I’ve worked, I’ve worked up poles you know trying to plumb cables up. I mean -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Now, they’ve got gas blow lamps but they, they were paraffin.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Or petrol and they’d go cold in the middle of wiping a joint the lamp would go out you know, especially if it was paraffin it would go cold. You’d have to chuck it down and get another one up, you know.
GR: Did you actually go back to exactly the same job that you’d left?
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Straight after the war. Yeah.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So they, in theory your job was kept open. There was a vacancy there.
HHB: There was a lot of newcomers there that I didn’t know they were.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Ex-servicemen, they took a lot of ex-servicemen on. Well -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Most of them were. Yes, I went back there and I stopped at Stafford for a while but by then I got in touch with my mother ‘cause she was in Nottingham.
GR: Right.
HHB: So, actually I got in touch with her during the war. Course she realised I would be going up and she made great efforts to locate us. Anyway, so I went back to Stafford. I came to Nottingham in ‘46 and stopped in Nottingham all the time. Started off as a cable jointer. Actually while I was in Italy I got a letter from the post office saying I’d been promoted to USW unestablished civil service, it was a civil service then. You got established.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I’d done five year established I’d done five years, skilled workmen that was so of course when I came that was it so of course eventually over the years I eventually got promoted to assistant executive engineer and that was underground maintenance. A group of about eighty men.
GR: Did you see, obviously you said you saw your mum.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: After the war?
HHB: Yes. I saw her before the war.
GR: Yes. Did you see your dad after the war or -
HHB: Yeah, I saw my dad.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: He still lived in Stoke he did.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: He eventually got married again.
GR: Yeah. But you saw them both.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So even though they were separated.
HHB: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: Oh that’s good.
HHB: My father died in 1962.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: My mother died 1992. Something like that.
GR: 1992 yeah. Oh that’s good.
HHB: So, that was it.
GR: Thank you Bill that was excellent. That was very, very interesting thank you.
HHB: We can nip down and have a pint now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Bailey was born in Stafford. After finishing school he went to work for the Post Office Telephones service as a telegram boy. He decided to join the Royal Air Force and began training as a rear gunner at RAF Dalcross. He joined 31 Squadron of 205 Group. He was then posted overseas to Egypt, Palestine and Italy. He and his crew undertook supply drops to Yugoslavia and to partisan groups in Italy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-01
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:48:23 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABaileyHH160501
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
South African Air Force
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Sarajevo
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Great Britain
Italy
Italy--Bari
Italy--Foggia
North Africa
India
India--Pune
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
31 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
B-24
crash
crewing up
forced landing
ground personnel
Initial Training Wing
medical officer
memorial
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Aqir
RAF Bridlington
RAF Dalcross
recruitment
Resistance
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/369/5796/MHicksDK[Ser -DoB]-151001-04.jpg
c5e4a531415dcfdd8651e2085db15dd9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hicks, Ken
Ken Hicks
D K Hicks
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. An oral history interview with Chief Technician David Kennedy Hicks (b. 1922, 0574954 Royal Air force), memories of the Battle of Britain, his Royal Air Force record, and photographs of his Halton entry, his time in Southern Rhodesia and 56 photographs, many of his time in Southern Africa. Ken Hicks joined the Royal Air Force in 1938 as a Halton apprentice. He served with 202 Squadron at RAF Hornchurch during the Battle of Britain as an aircraft rigger. Subsequently he served on training unit in Southern Rhodesia and then in Egypt, staying in the Royal Air Force after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ken Hicks and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hicks, DK
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SAILING.
The Royal Air Force provided excellent opportunities to take part in all manner of sports,
and once having reached my optimum playing rugby, athletics, pole vault, high jump
and tennis at station level, my posting to 107 MU on the Great Bitter Lake (Egypt)
offered me a chance to sail. I discovered that i was a natural, and whether it was my
knowledge of the theory of flight or the feel of the wind and tide, I was hooked.
My rapid progress to racing helmsman, plus my determination to win, resulted in my
winning four monthly races and “The Annual”, before i left.
On returning to England i won the Transport Command Competition at the Welsh Harp,
Hendon.
Then came my posting in November 1950 to the King‘s flight where the safety and the
serviceability of the aircraft took priority over everything, sport, although encouraged,
was way down the list.
Of course. there were slack periods on the flight, and at such times the “occupational
therapy” of polishing the Vikings until they gleamed , seemed to be the favourite
pastime.
I was chuffed to say the least, when the E.O. sent for me and told me that i was to be
detached to R.A.F. Hendon for 4 days to take part in the Inter Command Sailing
Championships. Not only did Transport Command win, but i personally won the
Individual Championship Trophy. From then on, i always had time off for sailing.
In 1954 Chief Tech Bill Owens and myself won the London Corinthian Sailing Club
Trophy which was then displayed in the entrance to the Officers Mess, Benson.
In 1956, at Seaview, Isle of Wight, i was a member of the R.A.F. team that won the
Inter Services Team Championship. “The Coningham Cup”. I was then selected for the
Inter Services Team v Universities, at Graham Waters. We lost, but put up a damn good
fight.
For all the time off work taking part in sailing, i must sincerely thank members of the
airframe bay, who carried out my work in my absence, also thr Engineering Officer, the
C.O, and finally, Air Commodore Sir Edward Fielden, Captain of the Queen‘s Flight,
who i am sure must have known everything that went on.
2 of 2
PTO
Ken Hicks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Royal Air Force Sailing
Description
An account of the resource
Relates that Ken Hicks took up sailing in Egypt on the Great Bitter Lake, and subsequently took part in sailing competitions back in the United Kingdom
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ken Hicks
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MHicksDK[Ser#-DoB]-151001-04
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Angela Merrall
Format
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One-page typewritten document
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Suez Canal
sport
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/369/6115/AHicksDK151103.2.mp3
8f3b62f9200c69a23551ea40528cc813
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hicks, Ken
Ken Hicks
D K Hicks
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. An oral history interview with Chief Technician David Kennedy Hicks (b. 1922, 0574954 Royal Air force), memories of the Battle of Britain, his Royal Air Force record, and photographs of his Halton entry, his time in Southern Rhodesia and 56 photographs, many of his time in Southern Africa. Ken Hicks joined the Royal Air Force in 1938 as a Halton apprentice. He served with 202 Squadron at RAF Hornchurch during the Battle of Britain as an aircraft rigger. Subsequently he served on training unit in Southern Rhodesia and then in Egypt, staying in the Royal Air Force after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ken Hicks and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hicks, DK
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and I’m here to talk with Ken Hicks on the 3rd of November 2015 about his experiences in World War Two but if you’d like to start please Ken with your earliest recollections and then just go through your life in sequence please.
KH: To start with, my father, a coal miner down in Wales and when I was fifteen he said to me, ‘Lad you’re not going down the pit. I want you to learn a trade. I want you to go to see the headmaster and join the royal aircraft as an aircraft apprentice.’ I went and saw the headmaster and he said, ‘There’s no one been up from this school. The curriculum doesn’t cover it.’ But my old man went down and thumped the table. And he said ok and he sent for the exam paper and I sat in his office in his chair and I had one hour and I answered all the questions and he came in and he said, ‘Put your pen down.’ So I had just I just worked out the last answer so I jotted that down and he went bananas. ‘When I say put the pen down put the pen down.’ So he put it in a big brown envelope and he said, ‘Lick that,’ and I licked it. And he got hold of me by the ear and said, ‘Come on. I want to see you post it.’ So I posted it. I passed. He had me up in front of the school, tapping my head saying, ‘There’s a clever boy. I want all you boys to try this examination now.’ So I learned a lot about humanity [laughs]. So off I went to RAF Halton as a civilian lad of sixteen. Never been out of the Welsh valley even alone Wales on a train up to London. We got, we got to London and all the apprentices were sort of gathering there on the last train to Wendover and we all straggled up to, up to the camp. Not marched. And I was very impressed. I would, became a member of B Squadron. Two Wing Aircraft Apprentice RAF Halton. There was over a thousand boys in our entry and it was quite an eye opener but I adapted very well. My education wasn’t all that clever so I wasn’t one of the brainy blokes. I never became a snag — a corporal apprentice, or a sergeant apprentice [laughs]. I was still an AA. I got a three year training course but the war broke out 1939 and they cut it down to two years. Cut out a lot of sport and concentrated on teaching us. We marched down to schools, we marched down to the workshops and we marched down to the airfield for the aircraft training. We were training on Hawker Harts and Demons drilling, rigging. Stripping them down. Building them up. And an old Hampden there as the bomber side of it. I passed out in June 1940 and posted to 222 Squadron which was based at Kirton Lindsey, Lincoln at the time. And I’d only been there a week and beginning to settle down when we moved down to Hornchurch which moved straight into the Battle of Britain which commenced then and with two Spitfire squadrons at Hornchurch — 222 and I think it’s 603 City of Glasgow Spitfire squadron. I worked with a LAC 1GC who called me a sprog and I soon picked up we were repairing bullet holes in Spitfires. Filing around. If they, if they weren’t too bad we put a fabric patch on them. Anything to keep the aeroplane flying. Or we had to rivet two small riveting patches. I fitted in well with the, with the airman. We worked until the aircraft was serviceable. Sometimes gone midnight. We lost thirty seven pilots in that three months on my squadron and I wasn’t, I didn’t realise what was happening up there in the sky above us. The Germans were bombing our airfields and the Dorniers were coming across at about six thousand feet and mounds of earth — bombs were dropping and they were trying to – the grass airfields and they were trying to obliterate the RAF camps altogether. Bombs on the airfield. We had civilians out there with shovels filling in the bomb holes. They were bombing our hangars. And I was in the bath one night, 10 o’clock, when a bomb landed right outside the building and blew all the glass from the door into the bath with me and plaster. I reached over for my towel and that was covered in bits of glass. So I turned the duckboard upside down and stood on that. It was pitch dark. Half the block had been knocked down so the next night they moved us over to a round nissen hut the other side of the airfield and we were all in bed and about 1 o’clock in the morning a landmine which had come down went off and blew the roof right off our head. This corrugated roof. And we were all shouting at each other in our beds. Everybody. ‘Everybody alright.’ So we said we were alright and nobody hurt so we went back to sleep looking up at the stars. So that was a good opening. [pause] Where were we?
CB: We’re going to have a break for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: Ok. So you’ve lost the roof.
KH: Yeah.
CB: And what happened next day?
KH: The next day I had to go with the corporal. Corporal airframe fitter. I was, I was an airframe fitter. A land rover down, one of our Spitfires had landed down in Kent. In Manston. So we had to go down there and repair it. On the way down through the Kentish fields all the fields that were unharvested at that time of the year and they were all burning. Flames going across the road as we were driving along. I don’t know if that was a ploy to destroy the harvest or what but anyway we got to this Manston. Manston was a place heavily bombed. Anything left, any bombs left, any bombs left going back to Germany they picked Manston out and dropped them there. So there was no one on the station except a skeleton staff but we had a billet and there was, there was an emergency cook laid on for meals and we got to the Spitfire which had bent a prop and a pitot head and the corporal fitter in charge he changed the prop and I had to help him. There was no one on the station so we helped ourselves in the empty yard and anywhere else for equipment and stuff. We worked in the middle of the airfield. There was also a lorry there full of civilian workers. They were shovelling and filling in the bomb holes trying to put the airfield back in to some sort of serviceability state and one of them was binoculars scouring the skies. He was lookout and when he blew the whistle they all dropped their shovels, jumped in the truck and tore off the airfield. So we soon twigged it and when they went off the airfield we went off as well [laughs]. We dropped our tools and went off as well. So we fixed this Spitfire and the pilot came down in an Anson, dropped him off and he took off and flew it back to Hornchurch and then we got home and that was my first introduction to the war as it were. What was happening? Stop.
CB: Ok.
[Recording paused]
CB: Ok Ken can we just talk about what was your role as a rigger? What did you actually do in your job?
KH: As an airframe fitter I’d done the basic training and trained on older type of aircraft but now I was on a Spitfire which I’d never seen before in my life and didn’t know. Hadn’t done any training on it but I was given, I was told to work with an LAC 1GC airframe fitter who knew the ropes and he had to sort of teach me. So any riveting he was riveting that side and I held the block on this side sort of thing. So we were doing patches on the skins and things like that. Change undercart. Change the wheels. Tyre bay. How to use, how to use the tyre levers to change those, get those tyres off. Things like that. They were all practical work which I’d never done before and everything we did I learned. I learned more all the time. We had to learn the hydraulic system, the pneumatic system, the electrical system, anti-freeze system and even spraying. We had to spray and paint the camouflage back on the aircraft. And another role came out. We had to paint the underneath of the Spitfires a duck egg, duck egg blue, a light duck egg blue. So there we were lying on the hangar floor with a twelve inch, two inch paint brush painting the underside of a Spitfire. And we had to do the whole squadron. We’d got a mat to lie on on the hard concrete floor. That took us about a week to do the squadron. I can’t remember other things which I did because it was a long time ago.
CB: What about the flying controls which were wire operated?
KH: Well they were alright but I I had to do some splicing and I got a wire out and made a measurement and got a new wire from stores and spliced in the buckle on both ends. That’s seven and a half tucks on the splicing and then, and then fit it, wire, pull it back through with the string and connect it up. Tension the turn buckle to get it all right. And then the aircraft used to go out then on air test. On one occasion I was working in a hangar and apparently a Spitfire had come over from dispersal. They disbursed the Spits instead of having them in one place and be a target for a bomb they disbursed the other side of the airfield all over the place. Well this one came over and stopped in between the hangars and the chaps coming back from lunch, dinnertime thought it was the next Spitfire to be done so they pushed it into the hangar but this one was armed and nobody knew about it. They came back from dinner and I was down just about opening my toolbox underneath the wing of this aircraft when an instrument basher had got into this aircraft he’d shoved in to check his instruments and he pressed the firing button for some reason and all of a sudden four machine guns blasting. Blasting the hangar wall with the armour piercing tracer bullets flying around all over the place. Quite a long burst. And I was crouching down behind my tool box and I thought [laughs] well it’s a bit dodgy this is. [laughs] Lots of things happened when we were working there. Every now and again we had to drop — drop our tools and run for the air raid shelter and get down there fast. I was down the air raid shelter one day and I was about the last one in I think ‘cause I was near the entrance and I heard an aircraft taxiing off so I l had a look out and there was a Hurricane had come in. It was taxiing around. There was nobody about. We were all down the air raid shelter. And the pilot was waving so I ran out, crossed and jumped on to the wing and it was, it was a Polish pilot and he wanted to know what airfield he’d landed on. He had a map on his knee which showed him more or less the east coast so I turned it over and I pointed out where we were. Hornchurch. Hornchurch. And he had a look around and I knew the Poles were over at, over the other side of London so I said to him, ‘Balloon barrage. Fly over the top.’ ‘Oh yah yah,’ he said, you know and off he went. I hope he got back alright. There were quite a few instances but when you’re young and you’re new to the game you learn pretty fast. You make mates but the Air Ministry post you as numbers and you just get a serviceable team going nicely and you’re posted overseas invariably. Never to, never to see each other again. So you don’t make friends too long in the air force. They come and go fast. Some are posted to the desert. Some are posted to Iceland to the snow. Some are posted up the Far East. I was on the boat. Went down to Uxbridge got my KD and [torpee?] Up to Liverpool. Got on a troop ship RMS Scythia. Hammocks. No bunks. Out in a fifty two boat convoy. Left the Clyde, staggered course, escorted by destroyers and one battleship. Out in to the North Atlantic. I heard depth charges going off. The destroyers were chasing the subs which were after the convoy. Apparently, we heard that they did get one. One of our troop ships. We came down towards the equator and on the day we crossed the equator I had my nineteenth birthday. Crossing the equator going down south on a staggered course. Then we headed west, west again to Freetown. Out into the Atlantic and down the South Atlantic to Cape Town. Mostly army bods on board. They were going around, they were going around up to the Suez Canal, Cairo and they were tackling Rommel in North Africa. But the twenty eight names of the RAF were shouted out. ‘Get your kit off the boat. Get on that train.’ The train set off up for a day and a half and we knew there wasn’t a river line going all the way to Cairo which we thought we were going there. And we came to Salisbury Rhodesia and I was posted to mount, RAF Mount Hampden. There were three stations around Salisbury. One was Tiger Moths, one was Harvards for training fighters and one was Oxfords training bombers and I was posted to Mount Hampden — Tiger Moths. We got there. We were advanced party. Twenty eight men in an advanced party. All trades. And we were setting up, setting it up it. Getting it prepared. The entry arrived on a train from the [wool?] station. Corrugated sink, roofs. Billets with mosquito net windows and doors. Storm ditches. And we soon settled down. Guards. Guard duty. I don’t know what we were guarding from. The natives weren’t, we could hear their jungle drums going all night when they’d had some Kafa beer down them from the village and that was about all. We had no problems from the outside but we still had to do guards. We were assembling aircraft out of packing cases. Tiger Moths. And we kept doing that until we got, we got about forty and they were doing circuits and bumps training pilots and one time there were four prangs on the airfield at the same time. One had landed heavy. Busted his undercart. Another one had landed, watching him, landed on top of another one and they both turned over like that. Upside down. And then another one crash landed and we had a big sign on the hangar wall, “You bend them, we mend them.” When we finished in the aircraft I had to go flying with the pilot on a test flight to test the aircraft before they handed over on to flying training. Loops and rolls and spins. So I used to put my parachute on and pull the straps tight and practice grabbing the, grabbing the rip cord to open the ‘chute. I always wanted to bale out. We were up there flying one day doing aerobatics and the aircraft, the engine cut so I thought, ah. So I shouted down the tube, ‘Can I bale out? ’ He said, ‘No. I can see a clearing in the jungle down there. So I thought oh. So we landed in this clearing. It was about four foot high grass stuff and we hit a termite hill which whipped the undercart off, dug our nose in and slammed us over on our back upside down. So I undid slowly on to the back of my neck, wriggled out and it didn’t catch fire. And that was at half past six in the morning. When the sun got up there it gets up to a hundred and ten, a hundred and twenty in the shade in the summertime. We had no food. No water. And the pilot said, ‘I can hear, I heard a lion roaring.’ Well there were lions around that area. I thought well we can’t leave the aircraft ‘cause they’ll never find us. So we were lumbered. We were stuck. Mid-day a Moth flew over, spotted us, waggled his wings and flew back and told them where we were. At about five o’clock a three tonner came through the jungle with Chiefy and a couple of bods and brought us food and water. Our Chiefy had a look at the aircraft. It had broken its back, it had broken its spruce bars and the wings had gone. This, that and the other. And I was watching him. He took his pipe out and he put his tobacco in. He struck a match and he took a couple of puffs and he went over and he threw the lit match down where the petrol was and up went the petrol and he said to the pilot, he said, ‘When you landed it burned didn’t it? ’ He said. He said it wasn’t worth taking back so (laughs] we went and left it. Yeah. Crumbs.
CB: Do you want a break?
KH: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: So the plane was a write off and caught fire so you went back but this was the sort of aeroplane you were trained on.
KH: Yes. That was no problem. They used to use me a lot because I was trained on aircraft and I could rig, I could rig the Tiger Moth so that there was no — it wasn’t flying left wing low, right wing low and all this that and the other and I used to do the trimming. I used to do any control work on it and I used to go up on air tests and make sure with the pilots that it was perfectly serviceable to hand over to flying training. That was primarily my job.
CB: What rank were you at this stage?
KH: I started off AC1, AC2, LAC.
CB: Right.
KH: I was stuck out in Rhodesia. No promotion for three years. I was doing an essential job training. Training pilots. I trained them in Rhodesia, South Africa and Canada so they were out of the way of the war. And that meant no promotion otherwise everybody would be flight sergeant [laughs] on the station [laughs]. Well there was no promotion at all for three years. One. One. He was a chippy carpenter. He got corporal stripes. He was the only one on the station that got promoted in that three years. The rest of the war was going on. That was more important. They were fighting out in Burma, they were fighting out in the Middle East and they were fighting out everywhere. They were moving around and getting places and getting promoted. They were on squadrons, my trade and the corporal would get killed and they thought they’d make an LAC up. There was promotion going on but not down there where we were on the training so I was still an LAC when I got home after three years. Six, six months I was only home in the UK six months and then I was posted overseas again. Egypt. A boat across the channel, a train down to [Touronne?] living in tents in the flooded water in the heavy rain until, for three days, until we got on a troop ship. Took us across the Med. Called in at Malta and I got rid of stuff there. And we didn’t know where we were going of course and then we saw the lovely blue Mediterranean Sea turning brown and we couldn’t see any land but that was the, that was the river coming down from North Africa.
CB: So this is the Nile Delta.
KH: The Nile. And that was coming out in to the Mediterranean and running and it was still brown full days sailing out from, you know. We came Alexandra. Dropped a few people off there and then we got on a train up to Cairo and we were nodding off on the train, with my head on the woodwork at the side and I started scratching and it was bugs come out of the woodwork and was biting me. I was lumps coming up [laughs] so I thought that’s our entrance to Egypt, you know. And this was the thing which we had to do. First of all it was a PGC Almaza in tents and before we left to go out in the evening into Cairo we used to put everything in our kit bag and lock it on to the tent pole because we’d heard that thieves used to get into the camp and pinch airmen’s equipment. When we came back, the rows of tents, there was a tent missing. They’d come in with a lorry and they’d picked the whole tent up pegs and all and put it in a lorry and drove out and nobody said anything. But ours was alright. Then we were waiting for our postings and we were posted everywhere. Down to, down the coast of Africa, down further down in to Egypt. They were posted up to Palestine. They were posted everywhere from there. Distribution place. And I got, I got Almaza Flying Station itself on Dakotas. So I soon picked that up then. We all had to move out of Egypt then so we all moved out of the Canal Zone. Two hundred mile across the desert to the Canal Zone. There was a great bit of lake half way down. It was Deversoir. Kibrit. Kibrit. Deversoir and 107MU and I was posted to 107MU repairing aircraft. But it was good in one thing. There was nothing to do. We had three yacht clubs on the station on the canal and I joined 107MU Sailing Club. I had put my name down first in a queue and then I was called up after about three weeks to join a club. The first thing I had to was allocate myself to a skipper who used to take me out and teach me how to use a jib. When I’d logged eight hours on the jib I was then free to be picked up by any skipper to go out on the main sail and give it dual instruction. And I found that I had a natural ability which I didn’t know I had and I could sail it pretty good. I learned. We’d got the rule book and I passed. Passed the B Helmsman Certificate and I became — I could take a boat out myself so I could book a boat out and take someone out. So, and every – we stopped – we finished, we started work at a quarter to six in the morning and we finished at one because it got too hot after that. So it was straight down the sailing club and I spent a lot of hours on the lake.
[Phone ringing. Recording paused]
KH: I’ve never done that before. [pause] Yeah. So I genned up on my racing rules and I passed my Helmsman Certificate. I could take a boat out and race. I could race. Compete. And I found I had the natural ability and I was, at the end of the year I was coming in first. I had three. The monthly race I was coming in first.
[Phone ringing. Recording paused]
CB: So, we’ve just paused for the phone. We’ve been talking about after the war in Egypt.
KH: Yeah.
CB: But you came back for six months.
KH: Yeah.
CB: What did you do in that six month period because this was at the end of ‘44?
KH: During that six months I was posted on to a squadron of [pause] of Hunters I think it was and I found out I knew nothing about modern aircraft and I asked and I got, I was away on aircraft instructional courses some lasting a month to various stations. I did three courses altogether and briefed up working on aircraft with the hydraulic systems and pneumatic systems, de-icer systems and all types of operational retraction handling and getting used to modern aircraft.
CB: Were these fighters or bombers or both?
KH: Everything.
CB: Right. And where were you stationed?
KH: Bombers. Transport. I was stationed actually at [paused] at — I don’t —
CB: Well we’ll pick up with it later.
KH: I can’t remember it.
CB: But you were getting up to date on modern aircraft systems.
KH: Yeah. Yeah. I did. You realise that I’d been out in the desert I hadn’t worked on them. But that developed rapidly during the war while I was out there.
CB: So after you finished at 107MU.
KH: Yeah.
CB: What did you do then? So you did sailing in the part time but after you left the MU in Egypt —
KH: Yeah.
CB: Where did you go?
KH: Well let’s see. I was posted to RAF [pause] as an instructor at Cosford. That’s right. RAF Cosford. As an instructor instructing air frames, hydraulic systems on the aircraft. From there the Berlin Airlift started and we were we were taken off to do a three month detachment on to the Berlin airlift so I was out of my first Berlin Airlift and straight into Berlin. Shift work. The aircraft. The Russians had surrounded Berlin and so we had to fly everything in. Food, coal, everything. So one aircraft landing every three minutes right around the clock. Avro Yorks, Hastings. Hastings were carrying fuel. But mainly Dakotas. American Dakotas flying right around the clock in shift work and we had the German labour to offload the aircraft and we had to – I was involved in seeing the aircraft in. Marshalling them, stopping them, putting the chocks there and getting them all in line and when they were emptied the pilot came back from having a cup of tea, got all back in the aircraft and started them up. I had a torch. That’s all. Start one, two, three, four engines or whatever what they were and the same all off. Right around the clock. If there was anything wrong we had to tackle it. We had to check, check the tyres, oil leaks, if there was a cut in the tyre we’d put it serviceable to fly back to base if we thought they wouldn’t make it. We didn’t want them stuck in Berlin. It was tough going and it was January. Snow. Three or four of inches of snow. We kept on flying and I was going from one aircraft to the other in the snow and there was a big pile of snow there. And I give it a kick. I thought, ‘What?’ And there was a dead man underneath it. It was a German labourer unloading the aircraft. He’d walked through a prop which was running under the wing and he didn’t see the prop and chopped him and covered with him snow as it taxied away. It was that bad but we kept it going. It was shift work and we were, we were shattered. The food we were having from the cookhouse was what we were flying in. Dehydrated. Everything was dehydrated potatoes dehydrated. Pomme. Dehydrated peas. Dehydrated powdered stuff and we weren’t getting good food at all. For Christmas Day we had one whole orange each. That was a treat. That was the toughest part I’ve ever been in I think. That Berlin Airlift. And the station commander wasn’t satisfied when he walked around our billets because we were doing shift work. We were piling out of bed and getting to work six o’clock in the morning. Leave our, leave our bed made down and that wasn’t good enough. All beds had to be made up. This that and the other. And everybody was put on a charge and we were all given a reprimand. A block punishment. [laughs] But I used to get time off. I was chatting up, my mate and I chatting up a couple of deutsche bints as we called them. [laughs] Yeah. It was alright. Anyway, we were back, back at Bassingbourn which was our base then. On Avro Yorks. Working on Yorks and they put me, when I got back to Bassingbourn, the warrant officer in charge says, ‘You’re a married man. I want you to go to the R&D section,’ receive and despatch section in charge of ten WAAFs. ‘I want a married man to look after them.’ So I went over to the edge of a hangar there was a section and they were sort of changing the white covers over the back of the seats in the aircraft and the airmen I had were doing the fitting of the seats. Taking them out and stacking them on a tractor and a trailer and we used to, an aircraft, a York used to come in, different rolls. Some had a roller. Some had lashing chains. Some had power seats. Some had VIP seats and all these had to be handled. And strip the aircraft and hand it over for it to do the servicing. Into maintenance and then fit them all back in afterwards so it was quite a busy operation and variation and they were all airmen and WAAFs and I was a corporal put in charge of them [laughs] and the first day I knocked off at 5 o’clock. They all left the section and I locked the hangar. Locked the section up which was a steel door. I was going to lock it and one of the WAAFs had come back, had got hold of me and pinned me against a wall. Grabbed a handful. So I thought, Jones, her name was. Bloody thing. So I talked her out of that one. I thought I’ve got to handle these buggers myself now [laughs]. So it was quite a struggle too because some of the airmen were a bit bolshie. They were, they all had demob numbers. They all wanted to get out, get out of the mob. That happened to start with down when I was down in Egypt. I had a, I had a team, servicing team. I was in charge of two aircraft servicing teams and every now and again a demob number would come up and I’d lose a man, lose another man, and lose a man – no replacements. Getting less and less and we had I was training two natives. Two Egyptian natives to do some of the work. Some of the rigging and fitting work. Just the donkey work stuff. And I thought well this is no good. We had fifteen Dakotas there servicing on the line. And then, and Chiefy says, ‘You’ll have to take that Dakota there he said, get in it, get somebody to start it up, pull the trolley acc away and taxi it yourself out into the desert as far as you can. Switch your engines off, get out and shut the door and walk back here.’ And that’s what I had to do. All these Dakotas. The war had finished. The Yanks didn’t want the Dakotas back. Nobody wanted them so took them out in the desert and left them there. And the third day I was going out, I taxied out and there was another one of them starting up so I went over. There was a truck there. It was Israelis there from Israel. They come down starting up to tax, taxiing to the runway and flying them back to Israel. [laughs]. So all I was doing was helping the bloody Israelis out [laughs] nicking all our Dakotas. Well they were supposed to be but they were perfectly alright. We were working all that time to get them serviceable. Cor flipping heck. But I soon adapted to that.
CB: So that was in your desert time. We were just having a reflection there. So back to Bassingbourn.
KH: Bassingbourn.
CB: Were you losing people to demob there as well?
KH: Yes. All the time.
CB: We’re on National Service now of course.
KH: Yeah.
CB: Because we’re on 1948.
KH: Yeah. Yeah it was. It got difficult then. What did I do? I went on courses. Bassingbourn. [pause] Cosford as instructor. Yeah. Married. Yeah Bassingbourn. Airlift.
CB: So Bassingbourn had Yorks.
KH: Yeah.
CB: And then did you keep on that aircraft or did you go to something quite different somewhere else?
KH: Oh no. I’m trying to think what happened then.
CB: We’ll take a —
KH: Oh yeah
CB: Sorry.
KH: I got quite fed up then and I was – what was it? I was at Abingdon. No. I was in digs in Reading. I was married. Digs in reading. I was on a motorbike back and forth to Abingdon. Working RAF Abingdon on Yorks and I was passing Benson and I was chatting to in bloke in Wallingford, a RAF chap from Benson. He said there’s a Queen’s Flight, Benson, King’s Flight at Benson then and he says, ‘Why don’t you come to Benson, you know, instead of going back and forth to Reading all the time.’ Reading to Abingdon. So I went to the orderly room and I I asked if I could be posted and I filled in a form and then I was posted to a Kings Flight. Well I was sent over there for interview. I arrived at a guardroom and I was escorted down to the hangar and up to the warrant officer in charge and I was interviewed and then he took me through to the flight lieutenant who happened to be in my entry. Thirty eighth entry at Halton. He was one of the brainy ones. He got, he got a technical commission and so he says, he says, ‘Right,’ you know, ‘We’ll have you.’ So I was posted to the Kings Flight. I applied for married quarters and I got it. 11 Spitfire Square and and everything was fine. Then it was the Queen’s Flight. The Queen’s Flight [pause]. Two children born there. Halton Hospital. Yeah. I enjoyed my stay there. I did so well when I left and yeah, I got the Royal Victoria Medal presented to me when I left. I was in Germany and I was sent, I was sent down to Bonn where a group captain was dishing out medals and I was presented with the RVM for being on the Queen’s Flight. For the good work I’d done there. I was working on Swift, Swift aircraft. There was only two squadrons of Swifts made. 2 Squadron down on Aden. I was on 79 Squadron and Chief Tech Airframe and nobody knew anything about these bloody aeroplanes. And I reckon I did some good work on them. The warrant officer relied on me for everything. Any snag that came up he used to come and ask me. There was one Swift sitting there. They couldn’t keep it in a hangar because it was running fuel all the time out of a pipe out of the back. Filled the drip trays so they kept it outside. They kept it out over a drain. The next thing the farmer down the road said his cows were getting ill. It was the fuel was going into the brook and drinking the oily, oily water so he asked me to do something about it. So I’ve got, I never seen Swift before in my life and I got, I went and got the one and only book on it and I took it home that night and read it. It was gone midnight when I finished reading that. And I studied all the circuits and this that and the other to where that fuel could come from. So then I went over and I undid a couple of panels and I got to the bottom of the tank, main front tank behind the pilot of this Swift and there was three pipes there and I traced them in the book and one was going up to a recuperator tank which was inside the main tank. It was pressurised from the engine. There was a rubber sock in the middle of that little tank. Pressure from the engine so that when you went into a G turn you was still getting full pressure from the engine on to his fuel to keep the fuel pressure up for his engine and that was the rubber sock in the middle of the front tank and that that pipe was the only one, I thought well there must be a pinhole in that rubber sock that’s getting through to the outside of that, but the air side of it and then coming out the drain at the back. And I told, I told the warrant officer this and he said, ‘Righto,’ and he took me onto another job then and he put a sergeant and a few riggers to work the tank out and put it on test to make sure what I said was true and it was. It was leaking. I’d pinpointed it alright. Then I was posted wasn’t I? Where was it? What do you call them? I can’t remember.
CB: So you were in Germany.
KH: In Germany.
CB: Where was that? Bruggen?
KH: Gutersloh.
CB: Oh Gutersloh. Right.
KH: Gutersloh [pause] Bassingbourn. Bassingbourn.
CB: Tell you what. We’ll have a break.
KH: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: Ok Ken. So after Gutersloh where did you go? You came back to Benson did you?
KH: Came back to Benson and the flights, flight commander said, ‘All the technical jobs are occupied but I want somebody to sort out a pain in my neck,’ he says, ‘Which is the roll equipment. I want to put you in charge of roll equipment and I want you to sort it out.’ I didn’t know what roll equipment was and I got down there and I had three sergeants. They were store bashers in the office and I had been an LAC I had a few corporals and a lot of men out in the hangar and they had twenty five Avro Yorks on the station that they could drop the ramp down the back and they could fit it out with roller seats or any anything [barrow?] and all that equipment, the roll equipment is stacked up in the back hangar at Benson and it, and it had to be sorted out. So I I had them all, all in the hangar there together in a group and I told them what's got to be done. So first of all we got some, some of the roller equipment which is racks with roller, roller balls on them. You could put things on so you could move, move everything around on them easily and assembled racks in the hangar to store these things and you’ve got to go through a servicing and then a servicing bay. US that side, serviceable that side and get a gang on servicing that lot and when they finished put them back on the serviceable rack and there were racks for holding all the chains for lashing down. All the straps, all the buckles and rings you could screw into the floor. There was all the seating. There was all the para seating. There was, there was all kinds of rolls. Centre poles you could put down from the floor to ceiling and fit seats in. All that sort of thing which was quite complicated really and these aircraft was going down the route and there was trouble down in [Muharraq?] and I was told by the wing commander to go down the route to [Muharraq?] and sort it out. The roll equipment there. And I walked in to roll equipment there and the flight sergeant in charge there and he’d put there from somewhere else. He didn’t know a thing about it and he was overloaded with the stuff. It was building up and he didn’t know what to do with it. It was the AQMs were slinging stuff off. They were getting a job sheet to carry so much and drop it off to there and this that and the other and no one was taking into account what was in the aircraft and what wasn’t and if there was room or not and it was chaos and the stuff was piling up down the end of the route. And so I went back and I told the wing commander and he said well make out, make out, he made out sent a directive down the route that any aircraft coming back with room has got to put roll equipment on it to bring it back to roll equipment Benson. So they brought it all back slowly so we got it all back and we could work it, work better then. Sorted that one out. What happened from there? From Benson.
CB: What year are we talking about now? 1954.
KH: Oh crumbs yeah.
CB: ’54.
KH: Yeah.
[pause]
CB: Ok. We’ll stop there for a bit.
KH: Yeah. Stop.
[Recording paused]
CB: So Ken, you’re posted to Hornchurch which is on Spitfire’s and they’re much more sophisticated than you’d been trained at Halton.
KH: Yeah.
CB: So how did they get you, ‘cause it’s the height of the Battle of Britain. How did they get you in on the act as it were?
KH: Yes well as an airman. Aircraft fitter. Airframe fitter. Trained but with lack of experience I was told to work with a LAC 1GC airframe fitter which – and we went through all his normal work and I was his mate as it were and I picked up a lot about the Spitfire. I was always questioning. I was always trying to get hold of air publication books so that I could, but I couldn’t get hold of any to learn more about the aircraft. The aircraft was developing in such a pace that new things were happening to the Spitfire all the time. They were improving this, improving that, improving the other and I wasn’t in a position to go in the flight sergeants office and have a look at the, have a look at all the APs and things like that. In any case that wasn’t my main interest at all. It was just getting the overtime worked. Usually working until you got the aircraft serviceable even if you were working until the midnight. It’s got to be ready first thing in the morning. If not and you do a shift work on it until it is ready. Most of the air frame work was you could, you could do it within a couple of hours. Undercart checks, this that and the other I could do in a couple of hours and carry on with the next aircraft but as an AC you could be taken off that job and put on another job even if you were halfway through it to work with somebody else but you don’t make the decisions. They do and they tell you what to do and it was that state of affairs but the more I did of that the more experience I got and the more experience you got the more responsibility they gave you to do. If you got three men and one of them has some experience and the other two are not its experienced bloke that gets the job and he’s the chap they rely on. So I found out, you find out the hard way. Sometimes you’re given the dirty jobs all the time and other times you’re not. You’re given the good jobs. So it depends who the next rank above you is and what he decides. So you’re bobbing around your corporals and your sergeants. Your sergeants were up top. They were miles away.
CB: You mentioned having to check documents. The APs are air force publications aren’t they?
KH: Yes. Yeah.
CB: When an aeroplane lands what has to be done to it before it can fly again? There are some basic procedures are there?
KH: Yeah. The pilot, pilot signs the aircraft in and he puts his signature down and puts down anything he finds wrong with it and he puts it down. That goes down in to the technical section and they put a man on to rectify that fault. So the pilot’s signature’s always there and before he takes the aircraft up he has to do the last signature that it is serviceable is down and then he signs over the top before he takes over and flies the aeroplane. He’s not allowed to take it up unless he signs the 700 first ‘cause that is the bible.
CB: In the heat of the battle they didn’t have time to do that so what happened then?
KH: Oh they did. They did.
CB: Oh they did.
KH: Yeah. Chiefy used to stick the 700 and a pen in his hand and he used to sign that and run. He didn’t know what he’d signed. [laughs]
CB: Amazing. So you’re working long hours. You get to finish the task. Where are you living on the airfield?
KH: Well before I was married I was in a block with the airmen.
CB: Right.
KH: And it was a station then at Benson here. As an airman, before I got married, and was quartered we used to march down from the block, across the main road, down to the hangars and march back again in those days. But they packed that in because it got too difficult in the end.
CB: Because the war was on.
KH: Yeah. This that and the other. Yeah. They got rid of that lot.
CB: And in the, so in a barrack block there are a number of rooms on several floors. How many people in a room?
KH: There’s a ten, ten. Twenty in a room.
CB: Yeah.
KH: And a snag in a bunk.
CB: Yeah. That’s the corporal.
KH: Six, six rooms and there’s a, there’s a static order. Everybody takes a turn in doing certain jobs. Domestic jobs that’s got to be done.
CB: What would they be?
KH: Bumpering the floor. Everyone had got his own space to do. In the old days you used to make your kit up into blankets. They had biscuits. Three biscuits stacked and then the blankets and sheets folded and the last sheet folded right around the top. Put on the top there and they had to leave that before they went, left to go to work like that. But they eased off on that situation later on.
CB: So bumpering the floor meant polishing the floor with a big bumper.
KH: Yeah.
CB: What other jobs were there you had to do?
KH: Well the, when it was your turn, what was it? Now everybody had his own window to clean. His own floor space. Bed. Locker.
CB: And the communal areas.
KH: The room orderly. There were certain things he had to do.
CB: Who was the room orderly?
KH: Everybody took it in turns.
CB: For a week or a day?
KH: No. A week.
CB: Right.
KH: There was a drying room down the back and a wash. A shower room. The toilets.
CB: How did they get cleaned?
KH: They were, they were all on a roster. So they were all done, all covered. The corporal in the bunk was usually the man who run it so it was run very smooth.
CB: Yeah.
KH: You was directly in contact with him.
CB: So in each room there’s a corporal and twenty men.
KH: Yeah.
CB: And now about eating. What was the procedure for that?
KH: Oh well. You just – what was it? [pause] You just wander over to the cookhouse with your mug and irons and no problem. Yeah. Certain times there was times when we had to work overtime on this that and the other and go back to the cookhouse and it still, it still, you’d still get fed and all that. There was no problem. IF you were orderly corporal or a orderly sergeant. An orderly sergeant in the guardroom. He’s got his job laid down down down. He’s got to make sure the NAAFI’s shut at 9 o’clock and he’s got to make sure that this and the other is done. He’s got to go around. It’s all automatic and back to the guardroom. I went to the guardroom the other day and there was two sailors there running it [laughs].
CB: A bit different now.
KH: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So what were the mealtimes?
KH: Oh normal. Half past seven ‘til eight. Work at half past eight. Nine hours. Or 8 o’clock. Depends what what you’re doing. Some earlier than others. The pen pushers well they were static but the fitters and riggers they have to adapt their work time to suit the job. If there was early start aircraft in the morning they had to be there. They were knocking off early and it was all covered that way.
CB: How often did you sleep next to the aircraft?
KH: Never. No. Never got to that stage.
CB: Not even in the Battle of Britain.
KH: No. Well I don’t know what they did our in the flights but they were, we were the fitters in the hangar.
CB: Right.
KH: Working on the aircraft. There were airframe mechanics, engine mechanics out on the flights dealing with them first hand and they had a different system to cover all eventualities.
KH: And the armourers.
CB: And the same with all. All trades the same. Yeah. The armaments sections. Yeah. Instrument section. This that and the other and they all had their ICs and they were the chaps looking after them. It worked very well.
KH: Yeah. Ok. Stopping there for a mo.
[Recording paused]
JLE: [First days?] I’d find quite interesting to know about.
CB: Apprenticeship days. Right.
KH: Apprenticeship days. Well. You were in a billet. Twenty men and a corporal or the senior man in the bunk. Six rooms to a, six rooms to a block. You’re forming, when I first joined, you’re forming outside with your mug and irons in your hand. Marched to breakfast 8 o’clock. Quarter to eight. Something like that. After breakfast came back and you squared your bed up, rolls your overalls, put them under your arm, fall in outside and you marched on to the square. A Squadron, B Squadron, C Squadron. The man in charge. The band would start up and you’d all march behind the band out the guard room and down the hill. And some would go to workshops, some would go down to the airfield and some would go to the school. About twelve — march back. Dinner. Down again. Marched down again and you’re probably a different, different place the next time and you’d go down the airfield in the morning. You were probably in schools in the afternoon. The schools cover all the theories. Worked everything out there. You’d do practical jobs. You’d dismantle it and assemble it again and various components on the aircraft. Engine fitters would be running the engines and the airframe fitters would be doing this that and the other and instruments were all covered. It was training. We would manage to get a few extra aircraft. I started off with a, with a Hampden bomber and a Hawker Demon and we had all kinds of jobs on that. We had to go over and do fabric work. You know to strip a fabric wing and build it up and repair inside. The type of wood used, the glue used and there are pins and rivets. The balance of the aircraft had to be rigged properly with a, with a straight edge, straight edge and get a bubble right in the middle, on whatever you set it at. Wing incidents. Dihedral tail. The fin slightly offset perhaps. The hinges – no play in the hinges. No play in the aileron hinges. No slack in the controls. Even had to polish the glass in the windows. Make sure everything works properly. Sliding hoods. The tyres of course had to be checked. They’d be taken off. Brakes checked to see that they worked properly. Assembled on again, undercart jacked it up, undercarriage actions. Check the hydraulic pressures. When everything’s been signed up you sign up and the NCO would sign over the lot and that’s it. The aircraft’s serviceable and nothing was allowed out until the last signature was there and it wasn’t even flying unless the pilot signs it as well. So it’s all covered. If anything goes wrong pinpoint who did it, who did what and when and who checked it. So it was a double check. Treble check. The safety of the aircraft must come first.
CB: Ok.
[Recording paused]
KH: There wasn’t much.
CB: Wait. We’re just talking about what Ken and his colleagues did in their time off.
KH: Well we took part in sport. I myself played rugby and so I used to go with the rugby team. I also did, what was it? Had to go for long walks. There was walking gangs. There was PTI down on the, down on the airfield. The PTI instructor would have us all out, arms wide, touch your fingertips all along in a line — two lines, three lines, four lines and as he did the manoeuvre and everybody followed him. Jumping up and down, arms waving, legs doing this, that and the other. Running on the spot and all this sort of thing you know and then always march. March back and, invariably with the band. The band were a pain in the ass. They used to go down in the drying room there practicing and it was din and you’re trying to gen up on a book and there was the bloody noise of these blokes trying to play these instruments. Banging their bloody drums. [laughs]
CB: Nightmare.
KH: But you had to live with it, you know. You learned to live with it. Practicing the bagpipes. They used to go up in the woods with the pipes. That was a good thing.
CB: At Wendover.
KH: In fine weather. Up in Wendover. Yeah. Heard them wailing away out there. They’re terrible things when you can’t play. If you play it properly it sounds good but pipes are terrible when they can’t play.
CB: So when you are then on a squadron we are on the front line effectively. What, how did the time off come and what did you?
KH: Well I was young in those days on the squadron. During the Battle of Britain it was, I can’t remember what I did. I just can’t. Because it was all work. I didn’t have much time off. I never went on holiday that summer. Some blokes used to go because they had a death in the family or something. I felt sorry for them but we took no leave. I couldn’t. I didn’t take any leave to go all the way down to Wales. Took a day and a half to get home some times and down again with the old puffer trains and this that and the other so I never bothered. Just go with the lads down to the village, to a pub and have a game of darts and this that and the other. Whenever possible if there was an organisation or sport I used to put my name down to play rugby and I did very well at that. Although I was small I was scrum half. Put the ball in. Talking about rugby I got in the desert in Egypt and the scrum down and the sand was blowing up the dust and you had the ball to shove in to the scrum and you could hardly see the hole to put the ball in. And the dust would cake around your mouth and you were covered in it and it were — [laughs]. Then again in Berlin I played rugby in the Olympic Stadium, Hitler’s Olympic stadium and snow was on the deck there. On the grass. And we played in three inches of snow. We played rugby there. So there’s a contrast for you. Desert and snow. But mainly it’s a grotty old station camp, station field which had probably got a slope in it and probably a low end where there was a load of mud and a dry end up the top but you adapt yourself to all these conditions and sometimes to your advantage.
CB: Good. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Hicks
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHicksDK151103
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-03
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:21:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Hicks grew up in Wales and joined the Royal Air Force as an Apprentice Mechanic at RAF Halton. He worked on Spitfires during the Battle of Britain. He was later posted to Rhodesia and survived a crash in the bush. After the war, He took part in the Berlin Airlift and found a civilian worker who had died and been buried under the snow.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Africa
Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Kent
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1948
Contributor
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Julie Williams
222 Squadron
C-47
fitter airframe
ground crew
ground personnel
RAF Abingdon
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Benson
RAF Halton
RAF Hornchurch
RAF Manston
Spitfire
Tiger Moth
York
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Airline crew travels
Description
An account of the resource
Top left - Stephen Dawson in airline uniform and Joy Dawson in a dress in the garden of a two story house. Captioned 'in uniform England'.
Top right - Stephen Dawson in swimming trunks sitting in a cane chair by a table under and awning in front of a single story building. Captioned 'out of everything Cairo'.
Centre - garden with table and chairs bottom right and single story building with steep pitched roof in the background. In the foreground a picket fence, and a caption 'me' with arrow to shadow bottom left. Captioned 'Bar-B-Q, Johannesburg'.
Bottom left and bottom right - two images of the same group of men sitting round a table on a beach with thatched single story building in the background. Captioned 'Taken by' on the left 'Me' on the right 'Ted'.
Right page.
Top - two men and two women in swimwear sitting on grass in front of a building. Captioned 'The Lido, Steve, Cookie, Mary, Steve, Jo'burg'.
Middle left - two men lying down facing camera either side of three women sitting in a garden.
Middle right - three women and a man lying in a garden. Left hand women is holding a dog.
Captioned for both photographs 'Old friends at home'.
Bottom - Stephen Dawson in the cockpit of an aircraft looking backwards with control yoke in front of him. Captioned 'In the office of an Avro York'.
Format
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Nine b/w photographs mounted on two album pages.
Type
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Photograph
Identifier
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PDawsonSR16010028, PDawsonSR16010029, PDawsonSR16010030, PDawsonSR16010031, PDawsonSR16010032, PDawsonSR16010033, PDawsonSR16010034, PDawsonSR16010035, PDawsonSR16010036, PDawsonSR16010037
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
South Africa
South Africa--Johannesburg
North Africa
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/247/7524/YDorricottAArmy2465v.1.pdf
16cef0bde6e585ad0ab8bee9626b6e37
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dorricott, Leonard William
Leonard Dorricott
Len Dorricott
L W Dorricott
Description
An account of the resource
72 items. An oral history interview with Rosemary Dorricott about her husband Flying Officer Leonard William Dorricott DFM (1923-2014, 1230753, 1230708 Royal Air Force). Leonard Dorricott was a navigator with 460 and 576 Squadrons. He flew 34 operations including Operation Manna, Dodge and Exodus. He was one of the crew who flew in Lancaster AR-G -George, now preserved in the Australian War Memorial. He was a keen amateur photographer and the collection contains his photographs, logbook and papers. It also contains A Dorricott’s First World War Diary, and photographs of Leonard Dorricott’s log book being reunited with the Lancaster at the Australian War Memorial.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rosemary Dorricott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-07
2015-11-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Dorricott, LW
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
3 Deseado
A Dorricott
2 Besford Sq
Belle vue
Shrewsbury
Salop
[underlined] Oct 28th 1914 [/underlined]
Embanked for [one indecipherable word]
29th Oct 1914 at South Hampton, [sic] on a passenger boat named SS Deseado, set sail about 7.30pm
[page break]
On the 30th sea fairly calm but weather stormy. On 31st fine day. We were [deleted] in the bay of Biscay on Sunday 1st Nov. It was very ruff [sic] it tossed us about and cleared all the crocks off the tables when we were having dinner.
We came in view of land on Tuesday
[page break]
between the coasts of North Africa and Portugal also of Spain. The rock at Gibaraltar [sic] were a site [sic] worth seeing we could see them fairly well although it was a bit misty. All round the coast it was very mountainous. We could see the forts very plainely, [sic] and we could see them
[page break]
signaling [sic] from the one side to the other.
The towns in Spain looked very funny the houses were all white.
The rock Giberaltar [sic] stood out in the water more than the other, and it is a very high rock, the fort [sic] are placed at the very edge. There were
[page break]
some very high Mountains on the coasts of North Africa, they were also very picturess. There is about 8 boats with soldiers and horses in with us besides crusers [sic] to guard us.
We passed some of the troops from India going to the front, we passed them at Giberaltar [sic] on Tuesday,
[page break]
about 5pm they were 4 and 5 Borderers.
[deleted] The last sight of land again on Tuesday morning. [/deleted]
It is the finest day we have had since we started, the sea looked splendid. We could see one of the towns [inserted] in North Africa [/inserted] lited [sic] up from the ship, on Wednesday night splendedly [sic] We also passed the 2nd Shropshires going to England on
[page break]
Thursday about 7pm they are going to have 6 days furlow before going to the front.
We passed more troops going to England on Friday Nr Malta about 4pm. We landed at Malta about 4.30.pm on Friday, and ankored [sic] there for the night, about 2 mile out
[page break]
from the shore Malta is a very nice town and is situated close the to the shore. we could see the lights of the town very plainly, and when the surch [sic] lites [sic] came over us it lit the boat up like day.
We had to wait for escorts at Malta because our other
[page break]
left us, to take the troops to England that we met from India.
The building in Malta look to be very well built their [sic] are some very fine churches their [sic] We started from Malta on Saturday morning aboat [sic] 8.30 [inserted] am [/inserted] with a fresh escort of Battle ships and torpeado [sic] boats we also had
[page break]
a submarine with us it was tugged by another boat. It was very ruff [sic] on Sunday again especialy after tea. It was not quite so ruff [sic] as last Sun when we were in the Bay of Bisky [sic] We were inockulated [sic] on Tuesday 10th Nov, we also reached Port Said on Tuesday about
[page break]
9 pm and stayed their [sic] till 5am on Wednesday morning we could see some of the streets, and see some of the Hotels. The natives are a tan colour. They were working all night, they were shouting all the time, makeing [sic] very funny noises There is a very big dock their [sic] with
[page break]
all kinds of boats in it. We saw them loading the vessels with coal, they carry it in wiskets from of [sic] a coal lanch [sic] We came into the Suez canal about 7pm There is a railway running along the side of the canal it run’s [sic] for miles and miles. Most of the native’s [sic] live in tents other’s [sic] live in stone build [sic]
[page break]
sheds, with a [inserted] slightly [/inserted] slooping [sic] roof, there are some very picture’ss [sic] building such, as “Palais. D Administration. Du. Canal” this is a very fine building We saw droves of camels, donkes, [sic] and mules, on the desert we also saw them drawing the [deleted] the [/deleted] sand and, spar from the hillocks The spar resembled [deleted] britez [/deleted] britze very
[page break]
much. They get it from big hillocks close to the canal They fill truck which run on rails for the donkey’s [sic] and mules, to pull, with slime, and the camals [sic] have to take the big lumps on there [sic] backs, in wooden boxes, the boys lead them about, and the men load them up
[page break]
The nataves [sic] run after the ship after pennies which the soldiers threw to them. The canal is about 100 yards wide and about 90 miles long. We passed a ship load of English passengers at “Gare De. Ballah, near the railway station We saw a lot of Royal Engeniers [sic] from [deleted] Lankeshire [/deleted]
[page break]
Lancashire at “Gare. De. Kantara the barricks, [sic] in which they stayed were very good looking building’s, [sic] build [sic] [deleted] of [/deleted] with stones, the roofs [sic] were flat.
We had five of the natives on board selling, tirkish –[sic] delite, [sic] post cards, cigeretts, [sic] and matches. We saw about 7 dredgers at work
[page break]
in the canal.
It is supprising [sic] to see the number of natives that work in the hillocks getting the spar The engins [sic] on the railway are something similar to the Midland railways Company’s engins, [sic] they go about 30 miles per hour.
The trees are very different to ours
[page break]
there is one class of tree that looks [inserted] like [/inserted] our fir, We saw some of the Kirkers’ from India at “Gare. De. Kantara camping in tents. We had to stop again for a fresh escort just out side a town called “Port Suez” or the town of Suez on Wednesday
[page break]
night, we were also there all day on Thursday.
On Friday we went on shore in coal boats drawn by a tug. When we got on the shore we went for a march around the town of Suez and to a-nother [sic] town about 1 mile away. The town is a lovely place. the houses are build [sic]
[page break]
of stone, and then plastered [deleted] over [/deleted] over There is generaly [sic] a lot of fancy wood work in the front of the houses which makes them look pretty. It is supprising [sic] to see the different coulors [sic] of the people there, there are some white people their, [sic] mostly French and Spaniards
[page break]
Then there are the natives which are tan coulored, [sic] also a lot of niggers. When we were on the march they stopped us and told us to go and paddle in the sea, which we enjoyed very much, as it was very dusty, and our feet were hot from marching. Then we went and had some
[page break]
thing to eat, a hard roll like a dog biscuit and a sardines.
Then we went to see a football match between the right and left half [indecipherable word] of our brittalian [sic] they had to finish before the proper time as it was getting dark, we then made our way to the shore but it was to [sic] ruff [sic] to go across to our ship in the coal
[page break]
boat, so we had to stop the night in a cargo boat called “Neghileh” we were packed like sardines in a box, some of us had to sleep on the top deck, our company were sleeping in a poky old hole were [sic] there had been a lot of hay, and which smelt [sic] of tobacco [indecipherable word] very bad, we
[page break]
had to sleep in our cloths [sic] and had our boots for a pillow, we did not have much to eat and only water to drink. We came back again on (Sat) morning about 9pm and glad we were to get a good breakfast. We saw some of the native police x they look very well in there [sic] uniform
[page break]
but I should not like there [sic] job as the natives are a ruff [sic] lot to deal with, the mounted police have splended [sic] horses. I only saw 2 bicicles, [sic] and I did not see a motor car at all their. [sic]
There has about 75 thousand Indian troops come into the harbour today Monday 16th Nov
[page break]
for the front.
We started again from the Suez harbour on Wednesday morning about 9am. The town of Suez is in Arabia. Our company were inockulated [sic] again on Thursday 19th Nov. We have two big gun’s [sic] on boat they are 4.7 bore. I saw the sailors practising
[page break]
this morning Friday our sailors are very good with them they hit the target almost every time, we have been rear guard biggest part of the way yet.
We [deleted] got to Aden on Monday at 11am were [sic] we stayed to post letters, and waite [sic] for a fresh escort. On Tuesday
[page break]
there several vessels came into the harbour with Austrailian [sic] and New Zeland [sic] troops on them, they were going to Aldershot for a short time and then going to the front if they were wanted. Aden is a very quiet place it look’s [sic] a lonely place to live at.
[page break]
There is a big barracks their, [sic] were [sic] they bring rigements [sic] that have disgraced there [sic] self as a punishment. They do not keep [inserted] them [/inserted] their [sic] more than 12 months because it is so lonely [insered] and difficult to get water [/inserted] We started from their [sic] on Thursday at 1.30 On Sunday 29th I was vaxanated [sic] most of the company were done on (Sat)
[page break]
[underlined] December 1914 [/inderlined]
We reached Bom Bay [sic] on Tuesday Dec. 1st at 7pm we ancored [sic] just outside the town till Wednesday morning and then we went in the dock, we were allowed [sic] off the boat from 4pm till 9pm to go just around the dock buildings
[page break]
only. Bom Bay [sic] is a very pretty place. Their [sic] is a big Y.M.C.A. their [sic] They use bullocks mostly to do the hauling an ploughing and use ponnies [sic] to do the cab work There is a splended [sic] market their, [sic] it is much bigger than the one at Shrewsbury.
[page break]
We started from Bom Bay [sic] for Calcutta on (Thur.) about 12 oclock. We were traveling [sic] on the Great Indian Peninsula and the Bengal Nagpur railways. The [indecipherable word] ride through the cuntry [sic] was lovely we saw droves of cattle, sheep, and goats, and a lot of monkeys
[page break]
India is a cuntry [sic] with a tremengous [sic] quantity of fruit growing in it We saw large quantites [sic] of bananas Oranges and [deleted] coca [/deleted] cocoa [sic] nuts We were three days going from Bom Bay [sic] to Calcutta we only stoped [sic] just to get our food at different stations.
[page break]
We landed at Calcutta on (Sun) about 3.30. We went on a [indecipherable word] boat called the “City of Marseilles” as soon as we could after landing. It was not so fine a boat as the Deseado We started from Calcutta on Monday morning about 7.30 for
[page break]
Rangoon. We arrived at Rangoon on Thursday morning about 7am. We disembarked about 10am. the natives brought us roses, cigars and matches and gave them to us. We then marched through the town up to our barracks, we had 3 bands
[page break]
playing us up there. The barracks are very nice places, we each have a bed and a locker of our own. Rangoon is a splendid place by what I have seen up to now. There are several other barracks were [sic] we are with different rigements [sic] in them.
[page break]
Part of our company and D company had to march back to the ship about 4 pm because we had to go back [inserted] to [/inserted] an island about 300 miles from Rangoon to guard convicts. the island is called Andaman island. We were allowed to go off the ship from
[page break]
3pm till 9.30 pm on Friday I went for a strool [sic] through the town and afterwards to the picture palace Rangoon is a buisness [sic] like town you can get almost everything you can menshon [sic] from the shops.
The shops are [indecipherable word] very much
[page break]
different to what they are in England. There is very [inserted] little [/inserted] frontage to them they are all open in the front so that you can see them making the things inside them. There are a good many British people in Rangoon. I was in the Y.M.C.A. on
[page break]
Saturday evening it is a lovely place. On Sunday morning the Wostershire [sic] regiement [sic] came on the boat they were going to England and then to the front. We are going to get of [sic] at Port Blair on one of the Andaman, [inserted] isles [/isles] and then the boat is going to take
[page break]
the Wostershire [sic] regiement [sic] on to Calcutta.
We left Rangoon about 11.30 [inserted] am [/inserted] on Sunday, we reached Port Blair on Tuesday morning at 7am. [inserted] Dec 10th 1914 [/inserted] Port Blair is a nice little place we have decent barracks, nearly the same as those at Rangoon
Dec 21st my birthday
[page break]
Dec 22nd I was on guard for my first time I was on guard with 2 more at a wireless station on the Aberdeen island about 1 mile from Ross island There is about 13000 prisoners on the two island There is a very big prison on
[page break]
the Aberdeen island were [sic] most of the prisoners are kept We did not have a very good day on Christmas day we had stew for dinner, and each man had 1 packet of cigarettes and a cigar, we also had a bottle of pop. we did not have any milk in our tea and
[page break]
very little sugar. On New Years Day we had bacon and 2 eggs for breakfast, beef and potatoes and pudding for dinner we were also allowed 1 [inserted] tin [/instered] herrings between 3 for our tea, so that is all the Xmas and New Year we have had.
[page break]
On New Years Day we selebarated [sic] what is called procklumation [sic] day in India the chief commisoner [sic] was there.
Ross island [inserted] is [/inserted] a very small island it is about 2 miles all around it It is very quiet here [inserted] there is [/inserted] no place of ammusement [sic] of any kind
[page break]
The natives of these islands are called Andamanese. They are supposed to be one of the lowest tipe [sic] of umanity [sic] there is in exstance [sic] They wear no cloths [sic] at all except a string tied around their middle and some of them not even that.
[page break]
They are not very big about 4’2” or 3” in hight [sic] with very black curley [sic] hair There [sic] skin is also very black.
Up to about 50 years ago they were savages, and used to kill everybody that went into their quarters unless they belonged to their tribe. Their [sic] is twelve tribes
[page break]
of them, At one time they were a very big race of people and used to cover biggest part of Burma, but have been driven down by the other races from the north, till their [sic] is very few of them left, these islands are the only places their [sic] are any left except a few in
[page break]
the south of Burma They are very good shots with bows and arrows, and live entirly [sic] by fishing and hunting. Their [sic] is one tribe still that are savages called gallowoys, and often when convicts go to cut timber from the part off [sic] the island in which they live,
[page break]
they kill them Since we have been at Port Blair there has been a fight between the gallowoys and the other Andamanese It was over some of the convicts cutting some cocoa [sic] nut trees down the gallowoys killed several convicts, then the other Andamanese
[page break]
that are more civelezed, [sic] and are emploued [sic] by the government of India to keep the gallowoys quiet went to stop them and then they started to fight but it did not last but a day or two or we should have had to have gone to help the Andamanese
[page break]
The reason they started this settlement here was because years ago when sailing boats were mostly used, in stormy weather this part becomes very rough so that boats used to get drifted onto these islands when crossing the bay of Bengal these islands
[page break]
are in the direct line boats take when crossing the bay.
When the boats got drifted unto the islands, and were waiteing [sic] for the sea to get calm the Andamanese used to rush down upon them and kill them and take all the things belonging them
[page break]
This was a big loss to the government (then the so called East Indian company) So they determined to start a settlement here so that if any boats got drifted the [inserted] people [/inserted] would be able to come on shore in safety, They had very great diffucalty [sic] in starting it they had to drive
[page break]
the natives off. and had many big battles with them, but after a time they began to get more freindly [sic] towards one another They afterwards started a convict settlement [sic] and build [sic] a big prison on Aberdeen Island which has about 13000 convicts in it.
[page break]
On Sunday 28 Mar I saw a shark which the convicts had caught, with a ordainary [sic] fishing line. it was only a younge [sic] one and was exactaley [sic] 8 feet long. its two side fins are 20 inches long and the fin on the tope [sic] of its back is 15 inches long.
[page break]
We left Port Blair for Singapore on Good Friday Apr 2 we started at 6pm on board a small troop ship called Mayo. The 2nd forth [sic] Somersets realeived [sic] us. We landed at Rangoon on Sunday morning (Easter Sunday) about 8.30. We were allowed to [inserted] go [/inserted] off the boat from 10am
[page break]
to 6pm. I first went up to the barracks to see some off [sic] my pal’s [sic] that were in the hospital that had been left behind the rest of the brittalion [sic] when they went to Singapore. After dinner I went to see the pogoda [sic] it is a magnificunt [sic] place, it is the
[page break]
finest pogoda [sic] in the world and is supposed to be one of the seven wonders of the world. It would be useless to attempt to describe it. We saw some very find carveing [sic] at the show room at port Blair but it is nothing to be compared with
[page break]
the carveing [sic] in the pagoda. Their [sic] is four entrances to it and you have to go up a lot of steps to get to the palace were [sic] [indecipherable words] are along the bottom of the steps there are people selling all kinds of things, especialy [sic] candles, also a lot of natives begging The natives have
[page break]
to take off their shoes before approaching the idle [sic] which they wish to worship. I afterwords [sic] went to the enclousure [sic] were [sic] the wild [inserted] beasts [/inserted] are kept. I saw several kinds of snakes, bears, lions, tigers, elephants, camels, dears [sic], monkeys, parots [sic], and many more things I cannot remember
[page break]
the names off [sic].
We started for Singapore on Easter Monday with the men that were left in charge of the lugage [sic] at Rangoon and those that were left behind in the hospital that were [inserted] now [/inserted] able to travell [sic]. We reached Singapore on Sat 10th Apr; Singapore
[page break]
is a very fine place, must hotter than Port Blair.
We started from Singapore on Tuesday 13th for Hongkong [sic] in China on a boat called Eumaeus. We reached Hongkong [sic] on Sun. 17th Apr.
[page break]
[2 blank pages]
[page break]
[numbers]
[page break]
[6 pages of addresses]
[page break]
[notes]
[page break]
[addresses]
[page break]
[list of locations and other notes]
passed a ship full of English passengers
[list of locations]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
A Dorricott's army diary
Description
An account of the resource
A handwritten notebook containing the war diary of A Dorricott from October 1914. He embarks the SS Deseado at Southampton and sails through the Bay of Biscay, past Gibraltar to Malta. They continued with naval escorts to Port Said, through the Suez canal, a stop at Aden then on to Bombay, Calcutta then finally Rangoon. After a stay there he sails for Singapore then Hong Kong. He describes the trip with comments about Australian and New Zealand troops on their way to the Western Front, the coaling station, his living conditions, the food, and the animals he saw.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
A Dorricott
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One handwritten notebook
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Diary
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
YDorricottAArmy2465v10001,
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
British Army
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nicki Brain
Alan Pinchbeck
Karl Williams
David Bloomfield
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Burma
Burma--Rangoon
China
China--Hong Kong
Egypt
Egypt--Port Said
Egypt--Suez Canal
Great Britain
England--Southampton
India
India--Mumbai
India--Kolkata
Malta
Singapore
Yemen (Republic)
North Africa
England--Hampshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1914
1915
animal
military living conditions
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/81/7914/LGodfreyCR1281391v10001.2.pdf
2bb4feee369606f050f7e0e0563b6922
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Godfrey, Charles Randall
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
64 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Charles Randall Godfrey DFC (b. 1921, 146099, Royal Air Force) and consists of his logbook and operational notes, items of memorabilia, association memberships, personnel documentation, medals and photographs. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron. He flew as a wireless operator in the crew of Squadron Leader Ian Willoughby Bazalgette VC.
The collection has has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Charles Godfrey and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Godfrey, CR
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-18
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Charles Godfey's observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LGodfreyCR1281391v10001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Egypt
France
Libya
Greece
Germany
Gibraltar
Great Britain
Netherlands
Scotland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium--Haine-Saint-Pierre
Egypt--Alexandria
Egypt--Cairo
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
Egypt--Marsá Maṭrūḥ
Egypt--Tall al-Ḍabʻah
England--Berkshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cumbria
England--Devon
England--Gloucestershire
England--Hampshire
England--Kent
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Northumberland
England--Oxfordshire
England--Rutland
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
England--Worcestershire
England--Yorkshire
France--Angers
France--Caen
France--Creil
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Nucourt
France--Rennes
Germany--Wiesbaden
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dorsten
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düren (Cologne)
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Osterfeld
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Troisdorf
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Wesseling
Greece--Ērakleion
Greece--Piraeus
Libya--Darnah
Libya--Tobruk
Netherlands--Hasselt
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Scotland--Moray
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
England--Cornwall (County)
North Africa
Libya--Banghāzī
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Libya--Gazala
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1942-03-23
1942-06-10
1942-06-11
1942-06-12
1942-06-13
1942-06-14
1942-06-15
1942-06-16
1942-06-17
1942-06-18
1942-06-19
1942-06-20
1942-06-22
1942-06-23
1942-06-24
1942-06-25
1942-06-26
1942-06-28
1942-06-29
1942-07-02
1942-07-03
1942-07-05
1942-07-08
1942-07-09
1942-07-10
1942-07-12
1942-07-13
1942-07-15
1942-07-16
1942-07-17
1942-07-19
1942-07-20
1942-07-25
1942-07-26
1942-07-28
1942-07-29
1942-07-31
1942-08-01
1942-08-06
1942-08-07
1942-08-08
1942-08-09
1942-08-14
1942-08-15
1942-08-16
1942-08-17
1942-08-18
1942-08-19
1942-08-21
1942-08-22
1942-08-23
1942-08-24
1942-08-25
1942-08-26
1942-08-27
1942-08-28
1942-08-29
1942-08-30
1942-08-31
1942-09-01
1942-09-03
1942-09-05
1942-09-06
1942-09-08
1942-09-09
1944-05-06
1944-05-08
1944-05-12
1944-05-13
1944-05-27
1944-05-28
1944-05-29
1944-06-05
1944-06-07
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-07-07
1944-07-09
1944-07-10
1944-07-14
1944-07-15
1944-07-16
1944-07-18
1944-07-19
1944-07-20
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-08-01
1944-08-04
1944-11-17
1944-11-18
1944-12-04
1944-12-06
1944-12-07
1944-12-12
1944-12-15
1944-12-18
1944-12-24
1944-12-28
1944-12-29
1945-01-01
1945-01-02
1945-01-05
1945-01-07
1945-01-08
1945-01-23
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-04
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-18
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-22
1945-03-24
1945-03-25
1945-03-31
1945-04-11
1945-04-13
1945-04-14
1945-04-25
1945-04-30
1945-05-05
1945-05-07
1945-05-15
1945-05-22
1945-06-08
1945-06-18
1945-08-03
1945-08-05
1944-06-06
1944-08-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Pilot Officer Godfrey from 3 of February 1941 to 25 of September 1945 detailing training schedule, instructional duties and operations flown. Aircraft flown were Dominie, Proctor, Wellington, Hampden, Anson, Defiant, Martinet, Stirling, Lancaster, C-47 and Oxford. He was stationed at RAF Manby, RAF Bassingbourn, RAF Harwell, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Downham Market, RAF Hemswell, RAF Wittering, RAF Abingdon, RAF Upper- Heyford, RAF Upwood, RAF Gillingham, RAF Cranwell, RAF Melton Mowbray, RAF Church Fenton, RAF Market Drayton, RAF Waddington, RAF Upavon, RAF Sywell, RAF Carlisle, RAF Linton-On-Ouse, RAF Newbury, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Brize Norton, RAF Exeter, RAF Andover, RAF Hampstead Norris, RAF Hythe, RAF Gibraltar, RAF St Eval, RAF El Dabba, RAF Shaluffa, RAF Abu Sueir, RAF Almaza, RAF Blyton, RAF Ingham, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Leeming, RAF Acklington, RAF Middleton St. George, RAF Newmarket, RAF Moreton-in-Marsh, RAF Leconfield, RAF Skipton-on-Swale, RAF Wyton, RAF Warboys, RAF Westcott, RAF Gravely and RAF Worcester. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron to targets in Belgium, France and Germany. Targets included: Heraklion, Piraeus, Derna, Tamimi, Benghazi Harbour, Gazala, Mersa Matruh, Ras El Shaqiq, El Daba, Tobruk, Fuqa, Quatafiya, Düren, Munster, Mantes- Gassicourt rail yards, Haine St. Pierre rail yards, Hasselt rail yards, Rennes, Angers rail yards, Caen, Ravigny rail yards, Nucourt, Wesseling oil refineries, L’Hey, Kiel, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Notre Dame, Trossy St. Maximin, Karlsruhe, Merseburg, Essen, Ludwigshafen, Duisburg, Dusseldorf, Mönchengladbach, Troisdorf, Dortmund, Nuremberg, Hannover, Munich, Gelsenkirchen, Mainz, Wiesbaden, Osterfeld, Kleve, Wanne- Eickel, Chemnitz, Wesel, Worms, Hemmingstedt, Dorsten, Bottrop, Osnabruck, Berchtesgaden, Ypenburg and Rotterdam. Notable events are that Charles Godfrey undertook a search and rescue operation in a Defiant and during the operation to Trossy St Maximin 4 August 1944 his aircraft, Lancaster ND811, was brought down by anti-aircraft fire. Whilst he survived and evaded, his pilot, Ian Willoughby Bazalgette was awarded the Posthumous Victoria Cross. The hand written notes added to the end of the log book give a description to the crash, and his attempts to evade capture. Pilot Officer Godfrey also took part in Operation Manna, Operation Exodus and Operation Dodge.
11 OTU
15 OTU
20 OTU
37 Squadron
635 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Bombing of Trossy St Maximin (3 August 1944)
C-47
Cook’s tour
Defiant
Dominie
evading
Hampden
killed in action
Lancaster
Martinet
missing in action
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
Proctor
RAF Abingdon
RAF Andover
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Blyton
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Carlisle
RAF Church Fenton
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Cranwell
RAF Downham Market
RAF Graveley
RAF Hampstead Norris
RAF Harwell
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF Leconfield
RAF Leeming
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Manby
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Melton Mowbray
RAF Middleton St George
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Newmarket
RAF Skipton on Swale
RAF St Eval
RAF Sywell
RAF Upavon
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Waddington
RAF Warboys
RAF Westcott
RAF Wittering
RAF Wyton
shot down
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Victoria Cross
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/450/7970/AHarrisonR151116.1.mp3
78c4628fae306c070946abd90f7380e4
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Harrison, Richard
Richard Harrison
Dick Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harrison, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Okay then so, this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command centre and Lincoln University, and today I’m with Dick Harrison in York, and what I’d like you to tell me is, first of all, is just date of birth and just a little bit about your family and your, your upbringing, what your parents did, that sort of thing.
RH: Yeah, I was born of the 5th of February 1924, I was born in Köln en Rhine, Deutschland, Cologne, Germany and er yeah, Dad English, Mother German, we came back to England in I think it was 1926, I was two years old.
AM: How did your Dad meet your Mum then if she was German?
RH: He was in the army of occupation.
AM: In? In Cologne or?
RH: In Germany.
AM: In Germany, yeah.
RH: Yeah, because he’d been on the Western Front from 1915 to 18, he was a regular soldier when he was in Cologne and various other places in the Rhineland, but he met my Mother in Cologne.
AM: Right.
RH: I think they were married there in 1922, something like that.
AM: So, what did he do when you came back to England? What did your parents do?
RH: Well he was a regular soldier and he carried on being a soldier.
AM: Right. Right through, yeah?
RH: Yeah until 19, yeah 1936.
AM: Oh blimey, right.
RH: He left the army and became a civil servant.
AM: Ah, me too, well that’s another story.
[laughter]
RH: And me too.
[laughter]
AM: So, tell me a bit about your school years then.
RH: School years, well Dad’s camp was near Salisbury, Winterbourne, so I went to a primary school in Winterbourne, and although people say today, you know, how good the schools were back then, this was a truly appalling school [laughs] well, and from there, I can’t remember what it was called, you sat the exam when you were eleven. And from there I went to Bishops school in Salisbury which was a local grammar school, then unfortunately my Dad left the army, the civil service post was in Gloucestershire, so we had to move to Gloucestershire, and I went to and I had to transfer schools, from a very [emphasis] good and excellent school in Salisbury to certainly a below par one in Gloucester.
AM: Right.
RH: Near Gloucester.
AM: What age were you when you left?
RH: When I left what?
AM: When you left school.
RH: Sixteen.
AM: Did you do schools certificate and everything?
RH: No, I didn’t.
AM: No.
RH: No, I had enough of that school.
AM: Right. [laughs] So what did you do when you left school?
RH: Worked in an office.
AM: Yeah, doing?
RH: Pardon?
AM: Doing just normal administrative?
RH: Yes.
AM: Office work.
RH: Yes, just clerical work, that’s all.
AM: Yeah.
RH: It was a company that, it was a [unclear]company so I was dealing with invoices and things like that.
AM: Right. So what year are we up to now? Sixteen, nineteen, I’m just trying to work my own arithmetic out, if you were sixteen?
RH: I left school in 1940.
AM: Right, so the war had started.
RH: Yeah and I was already involved.
[background noise]
AM: Right, and I’m looking now at the County and City of Gloucester air raid precautions, and this is to certify that mister Richard Harrison completed his course in anti-gas training, under the auspices of County and City of Gloucester air raid precautions central authority and has acquired sufficient knowledge of anti-gas measures to act as a member of the public ARP service. Tell me about that then, what was that like?
RH: Erm, and that’s what I—
AM: Oh, I’ve missed a bit, nature of the course attended was—
RH: Was a cycle messenger.
AM: Right, what did that mean?
RH: We were about ten miles north of Bristol, so when they were attacking Bristol, you know I was very interested, the first time I saw flak [laughs] but—
AM: What was that like then?
RH: Well, I mean as a kid it’s all very interesting, isn’t it? I mean we, the village hall was our local ARP post, and every Friday night that was my job, even when I was at school, every Friday night, get there for six or seven o’clock, I think it was, until six, seven o’clock the next morning, with my bike ready to go anywhere. And all over Bristol, it was a fantastic sight really was, searchlights, flak, German bombers coming over lit up, one crashed about a mile away from us here, but no it was quite a, quite a sight, and when they attacked Avonmouth and the oil tanks were set on fire, the whole of the horizon was red, yeah amazing sight.
AM: So, where were you sent off cycling? Taking what sort of messages?
RH: [sighs] Well we was just, I can’t remember the details. I remember one, one regular one was to cycle down to the pub and bring them back a pint of cider or something, and that was a regular run.
[laughter]
AM: Right, so the message was, how many drinks?
RH: Yeah.
AM: So, so when, so that was it, you did your cycling in your messenger training.
RH: Yes.
AM: And then what?
RH: What?
AM: What made you join the RAF? Oh, what came next should I say with regards to?
RH: The Home Guard.
AM: Right.
RH: I joined that when, yeah before I was seventeen I joined that and despite what people say and that, because there’s that film—
AM: Dad’s Army
RH: Dad’s Army. I mean, it was one of the most useful things ever because I was in a platoon where the officer commanding was World War one soldier, my Father was a platoon sergeant, World War one soldier, there were several of them, I mean when I went into the RAF, foot drill, arms drill, using a rifle, shooting on the range, using a machine gun.
AM: You’d already done it.
RH: It was easy, yeah, it was easy. I also joined the Air Training Corps about the same time.
AM: Right.
RH: So, at one time I had three balls in the air [laughs] ARP, Home Guard, Air Training Corps.
AM: And [unclear]
RH: And in addition to that, I took a St John’s, St John ambulance first aid course and got a certificate for that, so—
AM: Right.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Blimey. So, when you joined the RAF, but I think Gary said RAF regiment?
RH: Pardon?
AM: I think Gary said you joined the RAF regiment?
[phone rings]
RH: Excuse me.
[interview paused]
RH: Where were we?
AM: So, where were we?
GR: You were juggling three balls, ATC.
AM: We were juggling all those balls with your ATC, and your Home Guard.
RH: In the end I packed up the, one of them became civil defence from ARP, so I packed, I packed that up, I couldn’t get—
AM: Right.
RH: Otherwise I was chasing round four nights a week [laughs] and weekends with the Home Guard.
AM: And working in your office.
RH: And working as well.
AM: And working as well.
RH: Yeah.
AM: So, you’re coming up to eighteen, why the RAF? Where did you join? What was, what was you’re, what was it like?
RH: For a young lad I mean it’s, it’s just the glamour of the thing. King and country had nothing at all to do with it [laughs] don’t say that—
[laughter]
AM: We’ll cut that out.
RH: All I wanted, well I mean, one saw a war films didn’t you, ‘target for the night’ and all the rest of it. But unfortunately, I had a heart condition and my, on my medical records which I saw, because I wanted to go into aircrew, I wanted to be a wireless operator.
AM: Right.
RH: Wireless operator [unclear] because I’d been, Father had taught my brother and I morse code, and in the house, he’d rigged up two keys and we used to use that, even when we were ten or eleven years old we knew the morse code, and in the Air Training Corps, when the CO discovered I already knew morse, I became the morse code instructor for the squadron.
[laughter]
RH: And, but when I went for the medical, I think I was, temporarily unfit for aircrew duties, they said that would right itself eventually, and I remember being interviewed by the, this officer, he said, ‘well, I’m sorry,’ he said, ‘ that you’re fit for ground crew duties but you’re not fit for aircrew duties,’ I said, ‘right, in that case I don’t want to join the RAF, I’m going to join the army,’ [laughs] because I was fit enough for the army, and I had a mate, a school friend who was up at Catterick driving a tank, saying how great it was and I could picture myself in that, so I said, ‘I’m going to join the army, the Armour Corps,’ ‘no you’re not,’ he said, ‘no you’re not,’ he said, ‘we’re not going to waste, what was it twelve months or more Air Training Corps and then you go in the army,’ he said, ‘you’ll be called up,’ and that’s what happened. I got, yeah, before Christmas it was, 1942.
AM: Right.
RH: And I got my call up papers and went to Penarth in South Wales where they sorted you out, and because I’d been a clerk in civvy street, I went through trade tests, maths, English, I could type, type writing, book keeping, and that took all morning, and then at the end of it they said, ‘alright you’re now a trade group for clerk general duties,’ but it did mean that whereas a lad going in without any trade at all was getting three shillings a day, I got four shillings and threepence a day because I was a trade [laughs] and of course guys like one of the guys I sort of chummed up with, he had been a metal worker, and I can’t remember what trade he went into, but I know he was getting sort of, six shillings and something a day because he was a group one trade as against group four. Right, so what do you want next then?
AM: Ooh, well, what happened next? Tell me about it. What were you actually doing then? So, you got three a day—
RH: I can think, in my eight weeks I think it was, square bashing and then I was posted to RAF Tempsford in Bedfordshire.
AM: Right.
RH: And, that was the base for the special duties squadrons, 161 and 138, and they were dropping supplies and people for the resistance.
AM: Right, okay.
RH: And it was all top secret, I mean I suppose I didn’t know what they were doing.
GR: There was Maurice Buckmaster and Vera Atkins.
RH: Well, maybe so, Wing Commander Pickard, DSO, a couple of bars and all the rest of it, he was, he was the C.O. and, but I knew something about aircraft, and so what struck me was these Halifax’s, they had no mid upper turret, and I thought well that’s strange, and bomb trolleys were parked alongside the hangar with grass growing through them, so they weren’t being used [laughs] but no one told you anything. Eventually one of the guys in the office said, ‘Dick, do you know what we are doing?’ and this was after a month or so, I said, ‘yeah, I reckon you’re dropping agents into, into France,’ I said, because I had to do a what, a sort of duty every now and again, overnight, man the phone and so forth, and during that time, you would see a couple of black saloon cars going, going by, and they were going over to, what I discovered later, was a farm, an old farm where they were kitted up before they did their jumps. And, yeah, very secret, so I remember a guy crashed on take-off and they were all killed, and that night or the next night the father was calling and I answered the phone, and I said, ‘I’m sorry I can’t tell you anything,’ you know, ‘was he on the raid to Berlin?’ I said, ‘I’m sorry,’ [laughs] I knew what had happened to him but wasn’t allowed to say. And another little story, no need to record, as I say it was all top secret, this Halifax was missing, so that was seven guys as well, so into the HQ, came their, the NCOs, their pay books and in the pay book was a next of kin listed. Now the wireless operator in that crew had listed his next of kin as a girl in Sandy village, which was four or five miles—
AM: Yeah, I know where you mean.
RH: Away, you know?
AM: Yeah, I know exactly where you mean.
RH: You know where I mean? So, the Padre and another officer went down to give her the bad news, sort of thing he was missing, but I mean I wasn’t witness to this, I only heard about it afterwards, and apparently when they gave her the bad news, she said, ‘well he’ll be alright wont he?’ they said, ‘what do you mean?’ ‘well I mean, they are dropping supplies to the French resistance and they’ll —
AM: Oh God.
RH: Get him back. Which they didn’t. While I was there, not him, but while I was there a guy came back, but the only thing I saw was her arriving with an RAF police escort in a car, and she was wheeled in to see Wing Commander Pickard, and I suppose he read the riot act to her, keep your mouth shut.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And some years ago when I was caravanning down there, I went back to see if I could get onto Tempsford, but it was all wired off, but you could see the huts in the background, and I met, a local woman came out of her house, and as a wee child she remembered this place and she said, ‘you see that hedge there?’ she said, ‘we lived up on the hill and we weren’t allowed to come below that hedge, no civilians were allowed below that hedge line,’ it was so, so secret.
AM: It’s amazing isn’t it.
RH: On one occasion Wing Commander Pickard, flying a Hudson, that’s that one up there, that was—
AM: I’m looking at, I’m looking at models here.
RH: Yeah, that was his aircraft, and he’d taken people down to the south of France to a landing ground down there, and when it came to take off, he’d bogged down, because it was just a field, and so they had to turn out local farm horses and so forth and pull him onto hard ground so he could take off. I remember next morning in the HQ, one of the guys said to me, ‘have you seen the CO’s Hudson take off?’ I said, ‘no,’ he said, ‘well go and look at hangar so and so,’ and there it was parked up outside, still with mud up into the engines themselves, and he got a, I think he had three DSO’s, was it, Wing Commander Pickard? He was shot down in the end on another raid, yeah. So, there we are, what’s next then?
AM: So that’s that, well you tell me. What came next?
RH: I must have been the worst clerk general duties that the RAF ever had, because I wasn’t a bit interested in what I was doing [laughs] and I was always on the—
AM: Wanting to be up there.
RH: Back in front of the adjutant flight sergeant being given a lecture about something I’d done wrong. Then one day two guys came into the office and I knew they’d been in north Africa, and they said, ‘can we have a form to volunteer to go overseas,’ I said, ‘but you’ve only just come back.’ [emphasis]
AM: Two aircrew this?
RH: Pardon?
AM: Two aircrew you talking about?
RH: No, they weren’t aircrew.
AM: Oh right, okay still—
RH: They were two groundcrew. Said, ‘we’ve only just come back,’ and I said, ‘you want to go back out there again?’ ‘well, [emphasis] England, terrible place isn’t it, full of Yanks and all the rest, no, the sooner we get out of here the better,’ so I thought, what a good idea.
[laughter]
GR: Get me one of these forms.
[laughter]
RH: Get me one of those forms, yeah. And then I had a medical and this medical officer said, you know, as I said to you on the phone yesterday, he said, ‘right, condition no longer, so I’ll put you forward shall I, for the aircrew medical?’ I said, ‘no, no thanks I want to go overseas.’
[laughter]
RH: Did you read that letter?
GR: This one?
RH: Yeah, the one, the regiment one?
GR: Yes, I’m reading it, yeah.
AM: I’ll take a copy afterwards. So, you went overseas rather than aircrew?
RH: Yes, I volunteered to go overseas, it was all very quick, in fact I was sent on what they called, embarkation leave.
AM: Hmm, hmm.
GR: Yeah.
RH: And I think that was one week or two, and while I was at home in Gloucestershire, a telegram came telling me to report back to Tempsford, and I’d only been home two or three days, and so I went back and there was my posting notice, and I think, I thought the RAF were taking their revenge on me for not carrying on with aircrew because they posted me to an RAF Regiment squadron. And believe me in 1943, to be in the RAF Regiment, you know, I mean today, yes, they’ve got a good reputation, but that was really the backend of everything. And there were about a dozen of us, tradesmen, clerks, cooks, vehicle mechanics, armourers, wireless guys and so forth, and all resentful [laughs] at being posted to the regiment.
AM: Where was that though? Where were you posted to?
RH: Oh yeah, that was near Peterborough, near Peterborough. And, when I arrived there, there was a corporal clerk in the, what do you call it? Orderly room, in the orderly room. And as soon as I arrived, he sent off a signal under the adjutant’s signature, under who was away at the time, to the airman’s records at Innsworth in Gloucestershire saying, that Corporal so and so, can’t remember his name, was unfit for overseas duty. And so about, a couple of days later a signal came posting him out, didn’t get off kindly. [laughs]
AM: So where, where from, where did you go from Peterborough?
RH: Overseas.
AM: Yeah, but where though? Whereabouts?
RH: Sicily.
AM: Sicily.
RH: We went to, yeah it was a, it took a month altogether, although I think it was three weeks to Algiers on a troop ship as a convoy—
AM: I was going to say—
RH: As it was, but— Yeah, although in my letter I said, not eventful, in fact it was interesting at times because a U-boat got in amongst the convoy, and there were destroyers dashing up and down dropping depth charges. [laughs]
AM: It’s probably quite exciting when you are eighteen, nineteen.
RH: It was, when you are a kid, when you are a kid.
AM: You’re still a teenager, really aren’t you?
RH: Yeah, I remember saying to one of the seamen on our, on our troop ship, you know, ‘why is that, why are they flying a black pennant?’ he said, ‘that’s because they’ve detected a boat,’ he said, ‘they’ve detected a U, U-boat.’ Then we went to Algiers, and then we left Algiers, still didn’t know where we were going at that time. And then, I was in what was called the headquarters flight, which all the tradesmen were in that flight and we were called up for a briefing by the adjutant, and then we knew we were going to Sicily, and there were maps passed round for us to look at, and we were going to takeover, it was a light anti-aircraft squadron by the way, it had a twenty-millimetre cannon.
AM: Okay.
RH: We were going to take over defence of the Gerbini airfield near Cantania in Sicily, and that was the plan. But unfortunately, the Germans, you know, didn’t know what our plan was—
[laughter]
RH: And so, when we got to Sicily they were still there. [laughs] And er, yeah, we landed, we went to Malta first, I think we stayed there overnight or a couple of nights, and then we went to Sicily, and it was over the, over the side, down scrambling nets onto the landing craft and then onto a little [old?] pier sort of thing. And then we formed up and marched up into an olive grove and we were there for about a week. We were waiting for our trucks to arrive and the cannon, but they’d all been sunk. It was funny when we were en route from Algiers to Malta, there was a, ‘boom,’ bang and a great column of smoke over in the distance, that was the ship going down, and we heard later that was our ship [laughs] with all the trucks on.
AM: Blimey.
RH: So when we got to, then we were posted and moved to Lentini and that was a new, new landing ground, and we were sent there for anti-parachute troop duties. The Germans had dropped paratroopers into Sicily, not, not straight into combat, they dropped them as reinforcements to the guys who were already there.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And, but some of them were dropped too far south, and when the 8th Army had pushed up and they were left behind.
AM: I’m just looking, thinking about the geography, so you’re in the south of Sicily?
RH: Pardon?
AM: I’m just thinking about the geography of Sicily, so the Germans were on the island?
RH: Oh yeah, and eventually, eventually they had four divisions there. They had three to, three to begin with and then, then they dropped in two regiments from the 1st Parachute Division, and they were dropped in as reinforcements, behind their own lines. But they were the guys who eventually who stopped the 8th Army, you know, getting any further. But, and so when we got to Lentini, they were forming patrols of about a dozen guys and an NCO, and they [unclear] [laughs] searched the local olive groves and go through, and as I said in, in the letter, you know, God help them if they come across any German para’s because I’m sure we would have been sending out the first missing in action signals.
[laughter]
RH: Because they wouldn’t have stood a chance, they wouldn’t have stood a chance against those guys. So, that was that.
AM: So, how long were you there for, on Sicily?
RH: Pardon?
AM: How long were you on Sicily for? Ish?
RH: Yeah, we landed there a week after the invasion began, July, August, and then, when did we go into Italy? September the 3rd? So, we went into Italy on September the 10th, something like that.
AM: Right, so, so the Germans had been pushed back?
RH: They evacuated.
AM: They evacuated.
RH: Yeah, they got everything away, they got everything away, they had a defensive line sort of thing, and they just took it step by step back, and meanwhile they, I think forty thousand men all their guns and tanks, everything they managed to get across the Straits of Messina. And, [pause] the regiment squadron, we were on, we moved from Lentini to the Scordia landing ground, again it’s only a rough strip through, through the fields and that was the American 57th Fighter Group. They were equipped with P-40 Warhawks and they used to go out day after day trying to stop the Germans evacuating the—
AM: Getting across the Straits.
RH: Their, their stuff. And that was the first time I’d come across American, Americans and they were great guys, [emphasis] they really were. And later on, we were on the same airfield, when I was in aircrew and again, you know, they really are first, first class blokes, I thought.
AM: So, you’re on, we’re on the push now, what, what month did we say we were? August? What, what—
GR: No, September into Italy.
AM: And September into Italy.
RH: September into Italy.
AM: So you—
RH: I’ll just tell this little story while we—
AM: Go on, yes.
RH: At Scordia, I mean they were suffering losses because I mean they were having to make quite low level attacks with their fighter bombers. And we were watching these guys coming back, and, and one of them he came in rather high, banged [emphasis] down onto the ground, up in the air, bang [emphasis] and then turned over onto his, onto his back, so the pilot was trapped under, underneath. But I mean, they were very, very quick, in no time there was a, the er, a fire tender, an ambulance, and a mobile crane. And the mobile crane lifted the aircraft up, turned it over—
AM: [inaudible]
RH: And they forced the canopy open and out [laughs] got this young lieutenant, stepped on the wing, walked away a few paces, reached into his overalls, pulled out a cigar—
AM: [gasps] Oh no.
RH: Lit it and went on walking.
[laughter]
RH: And I thought, well there’s, there’s a nerve for you, [laughs] there’s a nerve for you. But on the other side of the coin, I remember, I used to like going out into their dispersal and watch them come in. And, they’d taken off—
[background noise]
RH: And then one of them left the formation, came round, landed and then taxied up to where we were, we were, sort of thing, switched off the engine, pilot got out and he walked over to the, the er. There was a sergeant who was a sort of an engineer mechanic, whatever, and I can’t remember the words after all these years what the pilot said, but he was complaining that there was a fault in the, in the engine, there was something, something wrong, and then he walked away. And I said the sergeant, I said, ‘what do you thinks wrong with that then?’ Now, you’ll have to excuse the language.
AM: It’s alright. [laughs]
RH: He said, ‘nothing he’s just shit scared,’ he said.
[laughter]
AM: Fair enough.
RH: So then we went into Italy, [pause] now tell you, this was a regiment [laughs] with a squadron, and so I knew [emphasis] very well, being, being in the HQ, the squadron had been told they had to go to Crotone landing ground which was sort of under the, that part of the—
AM: The heel.
RH: Italian boot.
AM: The heel.
RH: And of course, and we were following a Canadian division along the coast. They were way, way, way ahead, we never ever saw them. When we got to Crotone landing ground, nothing there at all because it had already been evacuated. Now the same time as the 8th Army landed on the toe and moved up on the north coast, the Canadians were moving along the south coast and the British 1st Airborne Division came in by sea to land at Taranto to push up on the Adriatic coast. And when we were somewhere west of, of Taranto we came across the Airborne guys, and, and they were stopping our convoy. Now in our convoy would be about a dozen three tonne four by four Bedfords, three or four jeeps, two Italian trucks that we had pinched, stolen and, and motorcycles and so forth. Yeah, we spotted these Italian trucks in a little town called Catanzaro down on the toe and the C.O. had seen them, two big Fiat trucks, and so he said to our corporal fitter, engine fitter, ‘do you reckon you can get those going?’ he said, ‘yeah right.’ So sometime around midnight he and another mechanic went out and started them and drove them up the road a bit and then we found them [unclear]
AM: Appropriated them. [laughs]
RH: And then painted them in RAF camouflage and off we went. And then so, yeah, we met the guys with the, with the red berets and from what they were saying is, ‘go careful, keep your heads down because there are German para snipers in the area,’ [laughs] and I thought to myself, we shouldn’t be here, we had no business to be there with just our, just the C.O. You know, woo, let’s just going, you know so think you can imagine we were some kind of Panzer unit or something. And then we drove into Bari, you know that?
AM: Yeah.
RH: Well as we went to Bari, there were people on the pavements, waving and cheering and then passing out bottles of wine.
[laughter]
RH: And I thought, well this can’t be right, and, and where are our guys? I didn’t see any British soldiers at all, and we drove through Bari, and I can’t remember the name of the town now, but about ten miles north of Bari on the main coast road, we came into this little township, and again, [emphasis] people came out and they were waving and saying oh—
AM: Italian civilians you mean?
RH: Yeah, [emphasis] Italian civilians, I thought it’s got to be something, it’s got to be wrong you know, and then the word quickly came down the, the line, the Germans left here this morning.
[laughter]
RH: Well that decided the C.O., all the trucks were turned round. [laughs]
GR: You were the spear guard you were, you were out in front.
[laughter]
RH: We go back to, we went back to Bari, and he looked at his map. Bari airport which was an Italian air force base then, we’ll go there, and we’ll the, we’ll take over the airfield, we had no business—
AM: Is this just you the RAF Regiment, you’re talking here?
RH: Yeah.
AM: Right.
RH: No business at all to be, to be there. And we drove up to the entrance and there were gates and as we drove up, there were armed Italians carrying their funny little carbine rifles, they shut the gate. Now I wasn’t there I didn’t hear what, what was said but they refused to let us in. So, then the order came down the line, ‘get your rifles out men and load them, and stand by the trucks.’ And of course, in our headquarters truck, where are the rifles?
[laughter]
AM: We’re laughing now, but I bet you weren’t laughing at the time.
RH: Scrambling, put ten rounds in the magazine, get out the truck. Meanwhile the Italians, a lot of them, had crossed the road and were in the olive grove in that side, so I thought, God, we are going to be between two lots here, but I think that fact that they saw a hundred guys or more getting out the trucks with their rifles ready, and that decided the Italians to open the gate and let us in.
[laughter]
RH: Yeah, so.
AM: Blimey.
GR: So you’re fighting your way up Italy?
AM: And your C.O. wanted you to be fighting your way up.
RH: Pardon?
AM: And your C.O. wanted you to be fighting your way up.
RH: And the, what do you call it? SWO, he was, he was another sort of, you know, let’s get up there and we’ll, all the rest of it. But, yeah then we went up to Foggia and there were several airfields there which the Germans had used, and yeah, we were, I think on two different airfields there, if I remember rightly, well airfields, landing grounds it was just a single strip. But I can’t remember anything worth reporting there. And by that time, we were subordinate to Desert Air Force, and so you’d get the daily orders from Desert Air Force. And on one they were appealing for air gunners, air gunners, now I thought right—
AM: This is it.
RH: We’ll have a go at this, and so I, you know, I applied and went to Desert Air Force headquarters to get the preliminary medical as such. And, it was, it was quite interesting, because they had my records there and the first officer to examine me, flight lieutenant or squadron leader, doctor or whatever he was, he said, ‘I can’t understand why you were failed in, a year ago,’ he said. He said, ‘there’s nothing wrong,’ and I said, ‘well it says temporarily unfit,’ ‘I can’t see nothing wrong, well, we’ll get a second opinion,’ and he called in the chief, the group captain, and he came in and checked me over, ‘yeah,’ he said, ‘no,’ he said, ‘I can’t think,’ he said, ‘why you were failed a year ago,’ he said, ‘there’s nothing wrong with your, with your heart.’ I used to think afterwards, they failed me because when they looked at my background, they realised in fact, that Mum was a German.
[laughter]
RH: I’ve thought that might be a—
GR: That’s possible.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah, yeah, possible.
RH: Yeah. Because when it came to the aircrew selection board, that was the next thing.
AM: Are you still in Italy at this point?
RH: Yeah, oh yes.
AM: Yeah.
RH: The, the aircrew selection board, and they asked, they asked that question, ‘what if you were ordered to?’ I mean there was no possibility for me to fly from Italy all the way to Cologne, but still, [laughs] They said, ‘what if you were ordered to bomb Germany, bomb something in Germany, you know, you were born there and your Mothers German, what, what if you were ordered to do that?’ [laughs] And I said, ‘I would obey orders.’ [laughs]
[laughter]
RH: Yes, so then there was, I was still with the Regiment Squadron, but I mean they hadn’t, they hadn’t fired a shot in anger and they were anti-aircraft, there was no need for them, so they found a new job for the RAF Regiment. That was to go up to the, our artillery gun line which would be a three, or four miles behind the front line, and by day if our guys were flying and bombing, they would put out smoke indicators to show where our front line was, so that our guys didn’t bomb in it. And by night they would put out flares and I was only there less than, less than, less than a week and but apparently, they did have some casualties later, later on. But, so that was it, now I went to Desert Air Force headquarters, and I had three or four weeks there, and then before I went back to the Middle East. Desert Air Force headquarters was the best posting ever I had in the RAF of a, really good guys to work with, we had an Australian flight lieutenant who was our, the C.O. of what’s called the organisation section where I worked. And he used to share his food parcels with us and he knew I was sort of going through them and I was going on for air, aircrew training and he called me in one day and he said, ‘Harrison,’ now I know this sounds like a line shoot, but he said, ‘Harrison, you’ve done a really good job here,’ he said, ‘we’re very pleased at the way you’re, you’re working.’ That’s because I had a gen, I wasn’t responsible to anyone even though I was only an airman I was doing my own, my own job, sort of thing, which was location of units.
AM: Right.
RH: And briefing people who came in asking questions about you, he said, ‘now why don’t you forget this aircrew thing,’ he said, ‘and I can guarantee,’ he said, in a few months you’ll have your first stripes,’ he said, ‘and I can see you going on from there,’ and I said, ‘no thank you, very much.’ [laughs] And so that was it, now I went back to Egypt
AM: Right. Where did you do your training, your aircrew training then?
RH: Air gunner training.
AM: Air gunner training, where did you do that?
RH: Yeah, a place called El Ballah.
AM: In, in Egypt?
RH: On the canal zone.
AM: Right. And how long, so how long were you training for?
RH: Right. [pause]
[paper rustling]
RH: You can take these away.
AM: Okay.
RH: Later. There were three six-week courses.
AM: Right.
RH: The first one was at 51 Air Gunner Initial Training School, and they’re all the subjects.
AM: Yeah.
RH: Then you had a forty-eight-hour pass into Cairo and then you came for another six weeks—
AM: Okay.
RH: At 12 Elementary Air Gunner School.
AM: Yeah.
RH: From there are all the subjects again.
AM: So, I’m looking at, I’ll, I’ll copy this, and but I’m looking at things like, different gun turrets, the Frazer Nash, the Boulton Paul, the Bristol.
RH: Yeah that’s right.
AM: Pyrotechnics, the Very pistol, the flares, forty flashes. Smoke floats?
RH: Yeah, smoke floats, yeah.
AM: Yeah, what’s a smoke float?
RH: Well it was, about, about that big and the idea was that, that in daylight, over the sea, over, over water, the navigator would ask someone to drop a smoke float, okay? And then the tail gunner, the rear gunner—
AM: Yeah, yeah.
RH: Himself. You see that smoke float and you take a bearing on it with your sight, and there’s sort of a compass ring—
AM: Right.
RH: And you say,’ okay, it’s at so many degrees,’ and then the navigator would count off so many seconds and say, ‘okay take another reading,’ so you take another reading and it shows you your drift.
AM: Right.
RH: The difference between the two readings.
AM: Yep.
RH: Yeah, smoke float by day, yeah.
AM: Oh.
RH: And that’s 13 Air Gunner school where you finally get to fly.
AM: I’m looking at this one because I was, I was going to ask you, what were, what did you actually train in? And we’ve got Avro Anson’s?
RH: Yes, it’s up there, somewhere.
AM: One of those up there? Dinghy drill. Did you all have individual dinghies at that point?
RH: No, seven-man dinghies.
AM: Because—It was a seven-man dinghy. Right.
RH: Then we trained in, in the Suez Canal, and the canal was only a couple of miles away from the, from the air field, so the instructor would tow an inflated dinghy out into the middle of the canal. And that was another, another thing and I’ve never come across it before and I’ve mentioned it to other aircrew types and they’ve never heard of this before. You had to swim fifty yards [emphasis] and if you did not swim, if you couldn’t swim that fifty yards you failed.
AM: That was it, you were out.
RH: You failed the course. So, I mean you had a life jacket on which was a damn nuisance believe me if you’ve got a Mae West and you try swim. [laughs] So you went out, two of you at a time, went out to a dinghy and righted it.
AM: Oops.
RH: Sorry. Righted it, then got into it, and then when the instructor was satisfied, when you got out you pulled the dinghy over you so it was upside down for the next pair.
AM: Right, and swam out from under it.
RH: To go out, yeah.
AM: I can’t imagine what the canal was full of?
RH: Oh yeah, [emphasis] yeah. Now and then whistles are blowing and everyone would have to get out if a ship came by. [laughs]
AM: Theres, there’s crocodiles isn’t there?
RH: No, no.
AM: Is there not? No. Alright then.
RH: There’s far more—
AM: I was thinking about horrible [unclear]
RH: Theres worse stuff floating in the canal, believe me.
AM: I can imagine.
[laughter]
AM: So, you’ve done your training.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Then what?
RH: Then we’ve went to [paper rustling] from Egypt—
AM: Hmm, hmm.
RH: To Palestine.
AM: Right.
RH: For the O T U.
AM: Right. [pause] So, I’m looking now at the, it was the 76 Operational Training Unit.
RH: That’s right.
AM: And you were on Wellington medium bombers at this point?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Tail gunner you said you were, weren’t you?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Tail end Charlie.
RH: Yes, we formed up of, as you may know, you know, the people weren’t detailed, we all assembled in a hangar.
AM: You did the crewing up.
RH: And we sort of—
AM: No other end.
RH: Pardon?
AM: No other end, is an expression—
RH: Is it?
AM: An expression, I’ve heard.
RH: Yeah well. And Joe, the other gunner, he, he eventually found a pilot who wanted two gunners, and so we met this Eddy who came from the Midlands, and he said to us, ‘who’s best at aircraft recognition?’ and Joe said, ‘he is,’ pointing to me.
[laughter]
RH: ‘So, right you are the rear gunner then.’
AM: So that was it? That was how that was decided. But then, so when was heavy Conversion Unit, were you still in Palestine at that point?
RH: No. We went back to Egypt for it.
AM: Back to Egypt for that, right.
RH: That was only four weeks I think at that point.
AM: So this is the 1675 Heavy Conversion Unit, into B-24 Liberators.
RH: B-24 Liberator, yeah. At least we got into a decent aircraft.
AM: Yeah. What, how many crew were on that? Was there seven or more? Seven.
RH: Well, seven. We trained as a crew of seven but operationally on the squadron, you carried an extra gunner, who manned the two waist guns.
AM: Right, so there was waist guns on there?
RH: There was also these, yeah, I did two or three [unclear] trips as a beam gunner, but you were the odd job. I’ll come to that when we get to the squadron then.
AM: Alright, okay. So, carry on—
RH: Well, [unclear, interviewer speaks over]
AM: Tell me about that and what happened and any stories about the conversion unit course or on to what happened after that?
RH: I can only think of a funny story on that. Sometimes, the nose wheel of the Liberator wouldn’t come down. And so, someone would go from the flight deck, for landing on the flight deck was a pilot, the engineer, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and top gunner, six of them all on the flight deck in that area. If the nose wheel didn’t come down, there was a, a drill for it. One of them would go back into the nose and help to pull the thing down. Well, we’d been on a night exercise, and Joe our top gunner, a Lancashire lad, he always had intercom trouble. He was an electrician by trade, but he was a real jinx [emphasis] when it came to in, in, intercom. And the nose wheel hadn’t come down, so I mean I’m hearing everything on intercom, so the skipper said to, I think it was the bomb aimer Ron, ‘Ron go on down into the nose right and see if you can do it,’ and so Ron goes down there. Then the next thing I here, Ron’s on the intercom, ’no, I can’t do it and I need some help,’ ‘ah yeah, okay,’ and so the navigator is sent down. So, now there’s two of them in the nose trying to pull it—
AM: Yank the thing, yeah.
RH: And get the wheel down, and then they come back on the intercom, ‘no I can’t do it,’ so skipper, Eddy turns to Taffy our engineer and says, ‘Taff, go down and sort it, will you?’ So, Taff gets out of his seat and goes down. Theres a hatch in the flight deck that goes down into the nose. Now, Joe the top gunner, knows that the nose wheel hasn’t come down, and then his intercom goes dead. And one after another he sees the bomb aimer—
AM: Oh God.
RH: The navigator and the engineer all disappearing through that hatch down below, and what does he think? He thinks they’re all baling out. So, his seat release is a wire handle and he pulls that, drops out of his turret, goes straight through the hatch into the end of the bomb bay.
AM: Oh no.
GR: [unclear] [laughs]
RH: He just had a few bruises that was all.
AM: I was going to say, I thought you were going to say he went right through and had to pull his parachute. [laughs]
GR: Well, the thing is to anybody listening, obviously Lancaster, Halifax, B-17 all land, and land tail down, but the B-24 was one that landed, and landed with its nose up.
RH: Nose wheel
GR: The same, yeah. So, it landed, straight—
RH: Yes.
GR: As opposed to sitting back on the tail, so when you were on about the nose wheel coming down that’s—
AM: That’s why it’s important.
GR: Yeah
RH: Well, I— [unclear, interviewer speaks over]
GR: In fact that was the only bomber that, that—
RH: Yeah.
GR: The only, only four engine bomber that, that happened.
RH: If I remember rightly in HCU and I mean, I knew guys who were ahead of me and so forth, and Norman, and he came back and he came up to the truck as we were getting off it, and he said, ‘have you heard Mick Berry’s gone?’ Now, Mick Berry had been a corporal armourer and he was in our tent at gunnery school—
AM: Right.
RH: And he taught us more about the machine guns than the instructors. After all, that was his, his trade, he was a, I can still remember, he was a great [emphasis] man, he really was a good lad. And there they had, had crash landed and burst into flames, and Mick was in the mid er, top turret. Now that was held by, I think it was four bolts and it was a common fault that bang [emphasis] on, on the deck and that turret would drop out, and he was trapped and he couldn’t get out, yeah.
GR: Oh God.
RH: Mick Berry, he’s buried in the cemetery near Cairo.
AM: Oh, right. How big is it? I’m looking at a model of the Liberator here. How big is it in comparison then to the Halifax and the, and the Lancaster?
RH: [unclear] it’s a hundred and ten foot wingspan, the Liberator and the Hal, well Lanc, well it’s just over a hundred feet, in total.
AM: I was going to say, it looks a bit bigger to me.
RH: Yeah.
AM: On the, on the model, I know [unclear]
GR: Well at the same scales, they’re actually, the Liberators on a par with the Lancaster, probably slightly bigger.
AM: I’m showing my ignorance now, is it American?
GR: The B-24 was originally was an American bomber.
RH: Oh yeah.
AM: Oh.
RH: Yeah, consolidated to the aircraft company, yeah. [pause] Nice aeroplane to fly because after flying in the Wellingtons as the rear or tail, tail gunner, the heating system, well, didn’t really exist. And, in O.T.U. going out on a flight at night, and we’d six hours, six and a half hour flights sort of thing in freezing [emphasis] weather and you’d have long johns and, and then your shirt and your pants, and so forth. And your wool, pullover, woolly, the battle dress, then over the battle dress, the, an inner flying suit—
AM: Right.
RH: Which was sort of kapok something or other, brown silky, you put that on. Then over that, the outer flying suit which wasn’t padded at all, then over that your life jacket, then over that your parachute harness. Now, some of the gunners at O.T.U. there was only one entry hatch and that was in the nose, so the guys used to take their kit with them and get dressed when they got down into the fuselage. But I had an arrangement with the navigator, and the bomb aimer, and the armourer who would turn the turret of our aircraft to a hundred and eighty degrees, so I could get in from the outside. And they would lift [emphasis] me up into the turret, and then when we got back I would turn the turret a hundred and eighty degrees, open the doors, fall out—
AM: We’re talking about the rear turret then?
GR: Yeah.
RH: Pardon?
AM: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. And they would—
GR: Tumble out.
RH: And they would get me out.
GR: [unclear]
RH: The advantage of the Wimpy of course, and the rear, and with the Lanc and the British aircraft wasn’t it, you opened the doors as a tail gunner and you just bale out and go backwards—
AM: You just flipped out.
RH: Couldn’t do that on the Liberator.
AM: So, we’ve done Heavy Conversion Unit, you’ve got your crew, you’ve done your training with your crew, when was—
RH: I can’t think of any incidents.
AM: When was your first operation then?
RH: In February 45.
AM: Right, and where, where was it too?
RH: That’s a very good question, I think—
AM: Germany somewhere?
RH: No, I, no we were in Italy.
AM: Oh, oh.
RH: Yep, I think that’s just March, isn’t it?
GR: That’s just March, yeah.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Can you remember what it was like going up? Right because now you’re doing it for real instead of training? Did it make a difference?
RH: It was just a job. I think, you know guys of our age at that stage of the war, nine, you know, coming up to the end of the war, and you, I can’t think of the term really, indoctrinated or whatever, and you are used to it, you are used to it.
AM: So, were you scared?
RH: No I wasn’t, no.
AM: No.
RH: Because I didn’t have enough up there to be scared.
[laughter]
GR: Am I right in assuming that the, the bomber force in Italy at the time, was doing things like marshalling yards—
RH: Yeah.
GR: In northern Italy.
RH: Yeah.
GR: Austria.
RH: Yeah.
GR: Southern Germany? I think that there was a couple of trips.
AM: I think, yeah, I thought, I thought you went to southern Germany?
RH: No, we there were, I never went on a trip into Bavaria.
GR: But that was some of their, their area of operations.
RH: Yeah.
GR: There was the northern Italy marshalling yards, the Turin’s, that sort of thing, Verona, to try and stop—
RH: It was mainly the railway lines coming down through Bremen.
GR: Yes.
RH: And also down to Trieste and so forth.
GR: Which was the main supplier [unclear]
RH: And also, we, yeah, we bombed, what was it? Monfalcone, a little port, Ancona and Assa [?] yeah, they were, they were where the Germans had ships and used to supply their troops by night by running these boats along the coast, sort of thing.
GR: Did you normally fly with an escort? With a—
RH: On daylight, yeah.
GR: Daylights, yeah.
RH: Yeah, yeah. We had the Americans.
GR: Yeah.
RH: American B-51’s.
GR: Tuskegee, Tuskegee airmen?
RH: I don’t know who they were.
GR: They, they were the black—
AM: Yeah.
RH: I remember on one, on a trip to Monfalcone in the daylight, I mean we didn’t fly in formation, I mean our guys didn’t know how to fly in formation I never, not on heavies. And it just the usual stream, and so there were, sort of sixty, eighty aircraft in a stream. And we picked up the American escort, this was at the top end of the Adriatic, Trieste.
AM: Yep, yep.
RH: Right, it was the port next to Trieste.
AM: Yep.
RH: And, we picked up the escort and it was coming up, and our wireless op was listening out on their frequency, there had to be some sort of contact for, for, I didn’t hear this. But I remember we’d said, said afterwards, he said, ‘when they saw us coming,’ he said, and they were [laughs] saying about look at those sort of God damned limeys they’re not in formation, you know, all that how do we protect this lot and all the rest of it. [laughs]
AM: It’s like herding sheep.
[laughter]
RH: Yeah.
AM: Or herding—
GR: Are the Luftwaffe putting in much of an appearance?
RH: No.
GR: Towards that stage of the war?
RH: No, no.
AM: Were they not?
RH: No, they had, they were 109’s on the Italian, northern Italian airfields, but I think most of those were in what was called the Italian Republican Airforce.
GR: Yeah.
RH: You know, Mussolini’s lot, so you did see them, you did see them. Right and I remember seeing a strange sight one night as we were coming away from wherever it was in northern Italy. It was all a tremendous glare of course and, and looking out I saw these three Lib’s flying in and they were in [laughs] formation more or less and then at the back end of the [unclear] was a Bf 109. [laughs]
GR: Oh.
[laughter]
AM: Following you.
RH: Following the—
AM: Did you ever get shot at?
RH: With flak.
AM: With flak, but not, not as Gary said, not from a fighter?
RH: No, no, I saw, yeah there was a, we were 70 Squadron, 37 Squadron operated from the same airfield. I mean I didn’t know who they were, were at the time but and coming back at night from somewhere, Austria I think it might, might have been, the, and then suddenly seeing green tracer which I knew it was German. And then red tracer [laughs] sort of thing, and then ‘woof’ [emphasis] up went the Lib and down he went, yeah and that was 37 Squadron. Liberator, all lost.
AM: All gone. Did you ever shoot your guns at anything?
RH: No.
AM: Never?
RH: No, no you even if, and we were tailed one night by a fighter coming back from Trento I think it was, Trento, Trento marshalling yards you know, and I just reported it to the, to the crew, it was a 109. And he was sitting out and sort of, sort of four hundred yards or so away, you’d just see them occasionally with the glare in the background but he didn’t close and I certainly wouldn’t fire at him because it would show where we were.
GR: Were you were.
AM: Other people have said that, why would you fire—
RH: Yeah. Quite.
AM: And you know, mark yourself out to them.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Effectively.
RH: Yeah. Yeah, no you never, never fire unless you’re fired at. Okay?
AM: Yeah. I think, have you got any more questions?
GR: No, no.
AM: How many operations did you do in the end?
RH: Bombing, eighteen.
AM: Eighteen.
RH: And then we converted to supply, as the war was coming to an end—
AM: Okay.
RH: And the bombing stopped, and then they put some sort of racking inside the bomb bay so we could carry four-gallon cans of petrol and things like that.
AM: Right. So, what did you do between the war ending and demob?
RH: Er, yeah, we carried, you see although the war ended we’d already converted to transport.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And so, yeah for two or three weeks after VE Day we were flying, we were talking up supplies up to the north of Italy. And then after that they converted the bomb bay so you could carry bodies, troops, we could carry twenty-two.
AM: Live bodies?
RH: Yeah.
AM: Live ones.
RH: Twenty-two in the bomb, bomb bay. Poor blokes, [emphasis] I mean they just had to go down into the, down onto the catwalk and then climb over the back of these seats and then sit down. And there was the aircraft fuselage wall, just there sort of thing, and they had to sit there and on flights back to the UK, it took six and a half hours.
AM: You can’t imagine, can you?
GR: No.
AM: Were these troops or did you take any prisoner of war back?
RH: No, no—
AM: It was troops.
RH: These were troops. The ones we were flying back were due to be retrained and reformed to go out to Burma. These were the, I remember, you see they didn’t need the air gunners as such, so you became an odd bod sort of looking after these soldiers and so forth. And I remember on one occasion we were flying back with some guardsmen from a guard’s regiment, and the truck arrived and this lieutenant got out with his twenty odd bods. And they piled around and he said to our skipper, ‘we were all NCO’s, we were all senior NCO’s, he said, ‘have you anything to say?’ to the men sort of thing, and he said, ‘no.’ Since I was Harrison, generally I was called Harry, and so Ken said, ‘now Harry will look after you,’ well that wasn’t good enough for the, for the lieutenant. He turned around and he said, ‘when you are in the aircraft I don’t want you putting your hands out and grabbing any wires or anything.’
[laughter]
RH: So I saw them on board and we were flying up to Peterborough, Croughton, just south, it was an American base at that time and I used to bring them out one at a time and with the beam hatches open they could have a smoke—
AM: Right.
RH: Sitting there. And I think it was one of the last guys, came out and he sat on the other beam gunners seat, and he didn’t have intercom of course, we could only talk to each other by shout, shouting really, and he shouted, he said, ‘do we go through customs?’ he said, I said, ‘well I don’t.’ Crewmen didn’t, you just went straight through, [laughs] I said, ‘you, yes you will have to go through customs,’ and I said, ‘why?’ and he pulled back the sleeve of his battle dress and [laughs] there were watches—
[laughter]
RH: On, on there. And I said, oh, how did you get those?’ and they disarmed an SS unit or something and so, and relieved them of all, of all their odds and ends. And er, and then he reached into his blouse, fiddled about and pulled out a pistol, and I said to him, I said, ‘I don’t think you’ll get through with that,’ he said, ‘I’ve got another one in my kit bag.’
[laughter]
AM: I thought you were going to say you took them through for him.
RH: No, no, no.
AM: If you didn’t have to go through customs.
GR: They’re here.
AM: [laughs]
RH: No, after, after we’d landed and I got my travel warrant, and had a forty-eight-hour pass to get back to Bristol.
AM: Right.
RH: Or near Bristol. And so, it was late evening when I caught a train from Peterborough to Kings Cross, and Kings Cross to Paddington, and Paddington to Temple Meads, then Bristol. Which, I arrived about seven o’clock in the morning, then I had to walk over to the bus station and get a bus, and I arrived at my parents’ house I think, yeah it must have been about nine o’clock in the morning. Knocked them up, then I had, since it was a Saturday, I had to leave next day, just after lunch—
AM: To get back.
RH: To get back, yeah, so my forty-eight-hour pass in fact was about thirty.
AM: In the middle.
RH: Oh, so, anything else I can help with?
AM: Yes, this is, just out of interest this question. So, your Mum was German, how was she treated during the war?
RH: Yeah, okay.
AM: Were people okay with her?
RH: Yeah, you see we were, when I say Dad went in, into the civil service, he did, he and a lot of other guys including the major commanding who is based and so forth. Some of them were sort of even if they hadn’t given their time were said, okay you’re finished, because now you’re going to an establishment in Gloucestershire where you’ll be training police, fire, in what today are called civil defence duties. And so, you know, my environment from a child and all the way through to the time I left home was, was semi military because all the other guys were like Dad, they all ex-army.
AM: Right.
RH: They were all ex-army and some of them I remember when we lived at Salisbury, I remember a couple of German women coming there to visit Mum and they were again were wives of soldiers and so forth. But, no and of course we had relatives in Cologne and at the time of the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, we had a telegram which came through the Swiss Red Cross, from Mums sister Gerda, in Cologne, asking if we were all okay. [laughs]
AM: Were they all okay, did they ask to—
RH: No.
AM: Did your relatives not survive?
RH: No, no they were, they lived, well as most Germans do in the cities, they live in an apartment block and the block was, was—
AM: Blown up.
RH: Hit, and Uncle Johan as he was, he died of phosphorus burns. And my aunt and my two cousins, saw one cousin, they were evacuated into, into central Germany. The other one, my, he was about a year or so younger than me and had been like you know like all the rest of them in the Hitler movement and so forth. And then when he was sixteen I think, he volunteered for part time duty on a flak battery, and then when he was seventeen he became a full-time member of the Luftwaffe [emphasis] on a flak battery. When I met him, you know after, we used to have a joke about it.
[laughter]
GR: That’s a, well at least you had the opportunity.
AM: At least you never shot at me.
RH: Never fired at me because you were in, on the Rhineland and in the Ruhr, yeah
AM: Yeah, Happy Valley, the Ruhr.
RH: Pardon?
AM: Happy Valley, I’ve heard the Ruhr described as.
RH: Yeah, yeah. But they’re all, my cousins and my aunt are not, they are all dead now so, no contact.
GR: What I’ve just found amazing is, you’ve saying like yeah, during the Battle of Britain, and Bristol was being blitzed and all that, and a family in Germany sends a telegram [laughs] to a family in England saying are you okay?
AM: Are you okay?
RH: Yeah.
GR: And that’s just like, that’s incredible.
AM: Ordinary people in the war.
GR: Yeah.
AM: As opposed to the Nazis and all the rest of it.
GR: But the fact is, so you are in Germany, and you’ve got Hitler, yeah, we’re going to invade Britain and do this, do that, but you can send a telegram. So, it goes from Germany oh yes, certainly a lot of it went through Switzerland through the Red Cross.
AM: [inaudible as speaking at same time]
RH: Yeah.
GR: But you got the telegram in England, are you okay? Is everything alright?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: What did you do then after the war then, after you’d been demobbed?
RH: I became a civil servant.
AM: Which bit? Which, which department?
RH: The Home, Home office—
AM: Oh.
RH: Was the governing training department but again [coughs] it was, it was, it civil defence training I sort of followed on, I and my brother we were lucky having a father in it. [laughs]
AM: Not what you know, but who you know.
RH: Yeah, well yeah, well you had to go through selection board.
AM: There was always full fair and open competition and all that, allegedly weren’t it. I’m just looking at this, the warrant on the wall here, which is?
RH: The what?
AM: I’m looking for the year, 1962.
RH: That was commission—
AM: You became a, well you tell me what it is?
RH: Yeah, I was commissioned in the volunteer reserve training branch here.
AM: Ah ha.
RH: The Air Training Corps.
AM: As a pilot officer.
RH: Yeah. Eventually I was a flight lieutenant.
AM: Yeah, crikey. Well I think on that note we’ll switch off.
RH: Have you been recording all—
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Harrison
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-16
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:07:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisonR151116
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Civilian
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Italy--Sicily
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1965
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Harrison was born in Cologne in 1924 to a German mother and English father. His desire to be aircrew was thwarted initially by a failed medical, something he later surmises could be on account of his mother’s nationality. A member of the Air Raid Precautions, Home Guard and Air Training Corps, he was called up in 1942. He was posted to RAF Tempsford, base for Special Duty Squadrons 161 and 138, who dropped supplies and people for the resistance. In 1943 he was posted to Sicily in the RAF Regiment Squadron for anti-parachute troop duties and then to Italy. He successfully applied to join the Desert Air Force and had air gunner training at El Ballah in Egypt. He went to Palestine as a rear gunner on a Wellington for the Operational Training Unit, followed by the 1675 Heavy Conversion Unit in Egypt with B-24 . His first operation was in Italy. After VE Day, they transported supplies and troops. After the war, he worked as a civil servant in the Home Office. In 1962, he was commissioned as a pilot officer in the Air Training Corps and eventually became a flight lieutenant
Creator
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Annie Moody
Gary Rushbrooke
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Sally Coulter
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
138 Squadron
161 Squadron
70 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-24
bombing
civil defence
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Operational Training Unit
RAF Tempsford
Resistance
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/319/8271/ERaettigDRaettigDW410727-0001.2.jpg
4b2195d8c9589d63ad8a311b8efa3177
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/319/8271/ERaettigDRaettigDW410727-0002.2.jpg
adad9ef6e32fa79d295d736ea26b697a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/319/8271/ERaettigDRaettigDW410727-0003.2.jpg
822d64216afb87aa063e38cb6d02f275
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Raettig, Dennis
Dennis William Raettig
Dennis W Raettig
D W Raettig
D Raettig
Description
An account of the resource
72 items. The collection concerns the wartime service of Leading Aircraftman Dennis William Raettig (b. 1920, 1136657 Royal Air Force). Joining the Royal Air Force reserve in 1941 he trained as a flight mechanic (Engines) before being posted to 104 Squadron (Wellingtons) at RAF Driffield. This squadron number was later changed to 158 Squadron flying Halifax at RAF East Moor, followed by moves to RAF Rufford and Lisset. The collection consists of a memoir, correspondence with family and acquaintances, family history, service and personal documentation, lucky charms,personal items, cap, boots, squadron tie, research on bombing in Hull as well as photographs of air and ground crew and aircraft. It also includes an oral history interview with Joan Raettig (Dennis Raettig's wife).
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Sue Burn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-23
2016-07-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Raettig, DW
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[front of envelope]
[postage stamps]
[post mark]
MR. D.W. RAETTIG
RAEVILLE
BEVERLEY ROAD.
ANLABY
E. YORKS.
ENGLAND.
[page break]
[inserted] Thanks for congratulations received when we got back from Suez [/inserted]
[underlined] 90 Worms & Co [/underlined]
[underlined] July 27th 1941 [/underlined]
My Dear Dennis
Are you getting those Airgraph letters Daddy is sending to you, they ought only to take 10 or 15 days to reach you. I am not able to write anything in those because they are for the Services only so I will have to write these letters on my own. I expect you will have left Blackpool by now & we are wondering where you are. Jack said in his last letter that he might be coming out this way so we are wondering if he has got started off. Also we would very much like to know what ship Max is on. We have been having a bit of a tough time here lately. Most of the women & children either have or are evacuating Mrs Snowden & Mrs Frood decided they would go they went on the ship in the morning & at night while the ship was still in the bay the Jerrys came over and dropped two bombs on the ship & the women & children were trapped in the blazing saloon. Mrs Snowden is badly burned & Mrs Frood is burned on her arms & chest & badly shocked but both are getting on nicely. I ought to have been with them but Daddy and I decided we would try and stay together as long as possible. He had a letter from Marion Barber the other day saying she had only heard from Don twice since Christmas & had we heard from him well we have only had the one letter and he gave us to understand that he doesn’t like writing however we will try & get in touch with him again & remind him that he has got some folk at home. Marion says they had there [sic] windows blown out & that there isn’t much shopping centre left in Hull. I heard that there was another bad raid last week & it was feared many people killed. I expect [one indecipherable word] will have to open out else where I think they would be insured alright. I wonder if that offer for Wilberforce St was accepted it wouldn’t be for much I expect. I am glad you managed to get Bladons paid off before you left. By the way did you arrange about Daddys big insurance & the trinity House. I am glad you
[page break]
insured the house, is it covered against war damage now. You say you wire Don Barber to write to Daddy well when he wrote to us he thanked us for the wire & we couldn’t make out what he meant as we hadn’t sent him a wire, so it would be your wire he would mean. Yes you did tell us that you had been vacinated [sic] & innoculated, [sic] Daddy & I too have been done, the first innoculation [sic] made me feel groggy for 24 hours but I was alright for the others. Daddy is busy playing bridge with some of the passengers & it is time for a drink of whisky so this is where I join in. Well I have brought my drink here so that I can still write to you. I am so glad you have been able to go & see Mrs Johnson especially at the first place you had to go to, you will be more used to being amongst strangers at the next move you make. Marion said Uncle Fred looked much better than she expected. My goodness Dennis Daddy & I are delighted with the photos you have sent us, the one of you & Jack & then this one of you & Marjorie. When I showed the folks the one of you & Marjorie they said my word your son is a very good judge he knows how to choose a girl friend, & say are there any more at Hull like that. It would be a very nice break for you Marjorie coming to Blackpool, how did she manage to pass her time while you were on duty. Goodness you don’t seem to have much time to yourself if you get up at 6.30 & don’t go to bed till 11 at night that makes the days too long. Yes I heard about the raid on Belfast in April. I sent Uncle Don a cable & he sent me one back saying they were O.K but I think they have had more raids since then. No it isn’t very nice being in lodgings with someone else they take your money but they don’t want the bother of you. I wonder what those Blackpool landladys [sic] would do for a living just now if it wasn’t for you boys. Did you get tired of your ‘tash’. Daddy has got a new dog a spaniel but I don’t like her so much as Mick though she is pretty to look at. This is all for this time write & let me have all the news.
Much Love
[underlined] Mother [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Dennis Raettig from his mother
Description
An account of the resource
Senders address is care of Worms and Company (shipping agents). Asks whether Dennis Raettig has been receiving mail from his father and relates family news. Comments that most women and children have been evacuated. Tells story of two women acquaintances who were burned after a bombing attack by the Germans on their ships. Notes that she and his father have decided not to evacuate and relates their day to day experiences. Writes about other people and notes that some have told he about damage in bombing of Hull. Mentions that they both have had inoculations and thanks him for the photographs he sent.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mrs Raettig
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1941-07-28
Format
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Two page handwritten document with envelope
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ERaettigDRaettigDW410727
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Egypt--Suez
England
England--Yorkshire
England--Hull
North Africa
Great Britain
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941-07-28
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Alan Pinchbeck
David Bloomfield
bombing
evacuation
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/469/8352/ABaronC160321.1.mp3
385c27519d9e75f7bcf44a0808ce8da5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baron, Charles
C Baron
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Baron, C
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Charles Baron.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Anna Hoyles, the interviewee is Charles Baron. The interview is taking place at Mr. Baron’s home in Louth Lincolnshire on 23rd March 2016.
CB: Here we are I volunteered for aircrew 1940, you can have a copy of this [laughs], I think the calling up system was somewhat chaotic at that time because it took the authorities another eight months to send me my calling up papers, the instructions were that I report RAF Uxbridge where I was issued with a uniform for an AC2/UT/AIROBS i.e. that means an Aircraft Hand Second Class under training for Air Observer close brackets, I volunteered for pilot but my eyesight test discovered that I was partly colour blind and that made it no good so err, when ‘cos I oh yes yes well then I’ll read this and then you’ll see what’s what’s useful and what isn’t, umm err, I volunteered for pilot but my eyesight was partly colour blind I remember that I had whilst I was at Uxbridge I was posted to Uxbridge and that’s where I got this funny title, which consisted of roast beef stroke yorkshire pudding followed by plum duff I remember being impressed and pleased that I had volunteered for aircrew as a meal that size and nature had not been at our table for years. I was then given a train ticket to Blackpool and billeted with several others in a seaside boarding house there were about ten of us recruits billeted there and most of them were friendly except well yes that’s nothing, I spent six weeks marching up and down the promenade after six weeks parading at Blackpool we were posted to a receiving wing based at Stratford on Avon I was here for two or three weeks and wasted my time as it was merely a holding post pending a vacancy for proper training at an Initial Training Wing ITW, this was well worth the wait as early in 1941 I was posted to Number Two ITW Initial Training Wing and billeted in Emmanuel College Cambridge I shared students quarters with two other navigation trainees, tell you I had it soft, the courses were for me actual luxury as I realised quite soon that I had what I had missed by not going to university for further education [laughs]. There was some forty of us billeted in different colleges we livened the local populace by marching everywhere at one hundred and forty paces per minute I remember our first drill lesson [laughs] ? standing for attention and being lectured by an instructor who was an obvious Londoner, I remember very ‘stinctly his first instruction relating to smart appearance which was, [how do I read this] ‘now tomorra I want all your buttorns cleaned’ [imitating a London accent] that was exactly what he said [laughs]. At Cambridge we were initiated in the mysteries of air navigation, air recognition, meteorology, morse and similar too many to remember in detail, the course lasted eight weeks I passed the course and was promoted to LAC Leading Aircraft Hand with my daily pay increased from two and six a day to five and six a day [emphasis]. We were then posted to Sealand near Chester for onward transmission by sea to Florida where where we due to spend six months being thoroughly trained in air navigation by Pan Am pretty good hey, on arrival at our embarkation port Avonmouth four of us found that our papers had not been received and the ship left without us [laughs], we were returned to Cambridge and you can imagine our feelings, this time we were billeted at Downing College where we cooled our heels for some weeks before I was called before the CO and asked if I would be prepared to volunteer for a highly secretive and dangerous training [whispers], as I would have been prepared to go anywhere to serve and play some useful part in the war I said ‘yes please sir’, after a day or so I was sent to Air Ministry where I was given some very odd looking diagrams to study and provide answers to various questions passed out and satisfactorily shortly after my return to Downing College I was posted to Prestwick. At Prestwick I was introduced to air born radar instead of six months full training by Pan Am I received six hours air training in a Blenheim 3 which was a twin engined bomber which had been furnished with a radar set for me to study during which time my training consisted of using the radar to instruct my pilot to follow and close with a target aircraft at night until he could actually see the target I was using a radar set to do this you see and I had to understand how to operate it the object would have then been to be able to shoot down the target I was passed [coughs] above average and then promoted to Sergeant Navigator Radar with a daily pay increase from five and six to, you’ll never guess, thirteen shillings a day [whispers] this equated to four pound eleven a week and was more than I had ever earned as a civilian [laughs], had I been passed average I would have been posted to an operational training unit for further training before being posted to an operational squadron I was bypassed because I passed above average, I think I told you, I was sent to Canadian Operational Squadron at Accrington Northampton er Northumberland where I spent several interesting months, our operation area was the North East included such targets as Newcastle and Durham so I expected a good deal of activity however compared to Southern England it was [?] and disappointing, I teamed with a Canadian pilot Sergeant Hughie Gorr we became very close friends and after the war we exchanged home visits, he and I stayed together as a crew for about three years. He proved his worth as a talented pilot on many occasions but one in particular sticks in my memory that happened quite soon after I was posted to Accrington the squadron oh yes this was Number 406 Canadian Squadron also maintained, you can have a copy of this photocopy of this no problem at all, also maintained a detachment at Scorton near Catterick in Yorkshire where all crews spent about one week in four, on one occasion we were on patrol at night there when one of our two engines failed and Hughie said ‘I think I can make it on one engine if you give me a course for base’ I duly did so but very shortly afterward the other engine failed [laughs] and Hughie said ‘bail out’ I opened the rear hatch and was halfway out of the aircraft with my parachute on and Hughie said ‘ooh I can see base and I am going to make a glide landing’ bearing in mind that this was dead of night his confidence was a tribute to his piloting skill when we less than a thousand feet and too late to bail out he said ‘oh lord it’s a dummy’ in other words a dummy was a false runway close to the proper runway and built to mislead enemy activity, I reluctantly climbed back in the aircraft er closed the rear hatch and settled down to await my fate it was then considered to control the engineless aircraft but kept the wheels up and made a crash landing in a field roughly fifty yards from a small wood I then climbed out [whispers] with a bruised knee, and that was that was quite an experience, er as enemy air activity was very low the squadron was posted for a year to Scotland not far from Prestwick where I had received my radar baptism this posting was also not terribly exciting and when volunteers were called to venture overseas to join the Middle East battle Hughie and I were happy to do so we were then posted to Wilmslow in Cheshire to be fully kitted out for overseas duties and then to Avonmouth where we boarded a steamer bound for Freetown in Sierra Leone our ship was part of a convoy on arrival at Freetown after surviving a few submarine scares we then boarded another steamer bound for Takoradi in the Gold Coast what was called the Gold Coast er that’s now Ghana of course, which went without convoy protection but fortunately we had no attacks from enemy submarines, we learnt while on board to Takoradi that all the passengers were aircrew and that the RAF had built an airport there for the purpose of ferrying fighter aircraft to the war zone in the Middle East, the aircraft had been shipped separately, this is very interesting, in knock down form for assembly in Takoradi the reason for this was that the Germans controlled the Mediterranean and it was considered to wasteful to fly direct aircrew had to wait a few days while the aircraft arrived and were assembled and then flown in convoy to the war zone across Africa, the route from Takoradi to the base in Egypt called Abu Suweir was a long one and we had to stop several times for refuelling and this meant overnight stops at Maiduguri Nigeria, El Fasher in Darfur, Wadi Halfa on the Southern Nile and finally up the Nile to Abu Suweir that’s how we got to Egypt. Unfortunately when we landed at Takoradi I was bitten [laughs] I was bitten by an annapolis mosquito and spent the next three weeks in a military hospital recovering from malaria this meant that Hughie and I missed our convoy and so our Beaufighter was three weeks late we were further delayed because our plane suffered a magneto drop and we had to leave our convoy for an emergency landing in another strip at El Geneina this meant we had to wait another week or so while a replacement engine was flown out to us finally we flew on our own the rest of the way by the time we arrived in Egypt, Montgomery had won the battle of El Alamein, it’s the story of my life [turning pages over] experience. We stayed in Egypt with 89 Squadron for about six months 89 was commanded by a well known commander called Wing Commander Stainforth he was a magnificent pilot and 89th Squadron he was given what was about three times the size of a normal RAF Squadron having a detachment as far away as Malta, Abu Seweir was comparatively quiet and our duties were largely uneventful patrols though I do remember coming out of cloud over Alexandria being mistaken by a JU88 by our own Mediterranean fleet and hastily removing ourselves from a concentrated anti-aircraft barrage. Now around the time this time Hughie was seconded temporarily for ferry duties and I was a spare navigator a squadron leader pilot who had completed his tour of Whitley bombers was posted to 89 Squadron to learn to fly Beaufighters the aircraft Beaufighter and I acted as navigator while Hughie was away Squadron Leader Clements had great difficulty in mastering the Beaufighter which tended to swing to starboard on take off and landing one day we took off as usual but squadron leader temporarily lost control and we were at right angles from the runway before we had got to the end we then wondered around the sky while I showed him our various points of interest Port Said, Alexandria and so on and eventually we approached our own airfield and he began his descent on landing he failed to control the swing tendency but this time on the landing the aircraft was once again at right angles to the runway [laughs] and heading straight for to a Hurricane which was occupied the Hurricane was, its’s engine, where are we, was running because the chocks had not been removed because the people who pulled the chocks away the aircraft er yeah the airmen who pulled them away couldn’t quite rightly saw that if they stayed where they are they would get killed by us you see, so anyway, I still remember I had not yet been [?] so he so that he was stationery I still remember the look of absolute panic on the face of the hurricane pilot as we removed his starboard wing [laughs] can you imagine that as we went by [laughs] the nearest the furthest away he could get so yes so fortunately he didn’t get hurt at all the squadron leader added to our problems by turning around in ever decreasing circles and the undercarriage finally collapsed on the ground we stopped I had a slightly bruised knee for the second time I also remember Squadron Leader Clements saying ‘I’m terribly sorry flight sergeant’ I was a flight sergeant by then my own reply had better not be printed. Fortunately Hughie returned the following day there was very little action around this time and when early in 1943 we were asked to volunteer for a three month detachment in India where the Japanese were reputed to be bombing Calcutta heavily and frightening the local population many of whom ran panic stricken into the jungle we gladly responded positively the volunteer flight of eight Beaufighters was commanded by Flight Lieutenant George Nottage a first class chap he and I became great friends after the war, after an interesting albeit uneventful side trip Dum Dum Airport Calcutta with various stops in the Gulf and in Bombay we arrived and moved to RAF airfield at Bicarchi [?] we then found that the enormous Japanese bombing turned out to be three Mitsubishi bombers flying at night with their lights on, I’m not joking, and carrying antipersonnel bombs, the night after we arrived the first of our eight crews on night readiness was piloted by a chap called Flight Sergeant Pring sure enough three Japanese bombers in formation with their lights on approached Calcutta and Pring duly shot them all down in four minutes his radar navigator W Warrant Officer Phillips didn’t have a much to do, two nights later three more Japanese bombers approached Calcutta this time shot down by an Australian flight lieutenant, the name escapes me, and his radar navigator Warrant Officer Moss unfortunately Moss could not have been looking at his radar set at the time because he overlooked the Jap fighter that was shadowing his three bomber friends and he shot the Beaufighter down happily happily, there is no tragedy in this so unhurt when they crash landed they were picked up by Burmese Irregulars [?] called Force 136 who looked after them and they were taken to the nearest allied post and in due course returned to us, thereafter Japanese night bombing ceased because they didn’t know about radar you see radar was so important to us enough in the war it was one of the keys that got us the win, I forgot to mention on arrival at Dum Dum we were told that as were now under RAF India Command our service was to last three years and not three months [laughs] you can imagine our reply [laughs] but I wouldn’t tell you. Consequently we spent most of our time in Burma what is now Bangladesh we were based in Chittagong resorted to intruder flights over Burma where our targets were mainly trains and convoys of lorries these were fairly long flights and I remember in particular Rangoon and Mandalay we also dropped the occasional senior officers to Infall [?] where the 14th Army were besieged the airport there used to be attacked during the day but we managed without incident, er one hot summer day what’s all this about, oh yes this is interesting, one hot summer day in 1943 I was laying on my Charpoy [?], do you know what Charpoy it’s a straw bed, er where am I oh yes, er perspiring freely, wh en an officer came to my billet and told me to quote his own words ‘George wants you’ and I asked ‘why?’ and the officer didn’t know ‘I don’t know go and ask him’ I duly presented myself at the officers mess and in due to course to George Flight Lieutenant Knowledge Flight Lieutenant Nottage came to the door and said ‘oh hello Charlie move your move your stuff in here you’re an officer now’ that’s how I got promoted this was the sum total of my officer training it’s silly isn’t it [laughs] but it’s true [laughs]. As an officer in addition to my navigation duties I was given various jobs i.e. savings officer, officers mess, bar officer and entertainments officer, every Friday I sat at the end of the airmen’s weekly pay parade and collected such amounts as such as each airman gave paid from his weekly wage to be handed a savings certificate in return for his donation which I then banked. My bar officer duties consisted of replenishing stocks from weekly visits to Calcutta and setting prices for all the different types of alcohol initially I made myself very unpopular by raising the prices but this changed completely when I opened the bar for free for the five days around Christmas, I am considered to be responsible for the squadron leader admin acquiring DT’s. My most memorable experience as an entertainments officer was when I learnt that Vera Lynn was visiting the area this was just after the end of the war in Europe actually and Egypt and so on, I made an emergency flight to Calcutta and at short notice given an appointment and I successfully persuaded her to come to Bicarchi and giver a concert there which was of course highly successful despite the fact the only date we could offer was the Sunday at which she said ‘well it’s me day off really but I’ll do it for the boys’ what a wonderful person she is. Shortly after my pilot and various other officers having completed their flying duties were flown home, my flying duties were also completed but instead of being flown home I was promoted to Flight Lieutenant and posted to Basci [?] Air Quarters in Delhi there I was initially responsible for organising the various training headquarters throughout India for Indian Air Force Ground Crew, excuse me, nearly finished. After a few months I was transferred to the organisational department with the grand title of ORG1A here I was once again promoted to squadron leader and was involved with planning the invasion of Singapore unfortunately somebody dropped an atom bomb and ruined all my work subsequently I handled various aspects of construction on airfields under our control and exceptionally after the war ended this included the Indian Officer Building of British Overseas Aircraft. At long last I was posted home with my wife, not this one [laughs], Winnie was a WAF corporal whom I had met in Accrington years ago we’d been in correspondence since then and she followed me to India via Ceylon at the first opportunity but the disparity in our ranking met with some disapproval but we still married in Delhi and gave a popular ceremonial drinking party on arrival in England in 46 after due leave with my new family [?] er oh yes well after that I mean you don’t want to know you won’t
AH: I wouldn’t mind knowing what you did after the war?
CB: Oh right, my work at Air Ministry was a member of the British bombing survey I was posted to Air Ministry to assist in the analysis of the different bombing targets as instructed by Air Marshall Bomber Harris you’ve heard of him, his policy of bombing towns to break the morale of the German people was considered [coughs] correctly in my view as wrong both strategically and morally because the carriage that resulted the carnage that resulted failed completely to break the German civilian aircraft German civilian morale and cost our Bomber Command fifty per cent casualties the highest casualty rate of any arm of any service in allied command that’s true Bomber Command, well I had an elder brother he didn’t last there you go. On my release later in 1946 the RAF paid for a short course in business admin and a posting for two years, do you still want to hear that, at six pounds per week [laughs] er in a repetition woodworking company specialising in turnery where I was supposed to continue my business training in fact I was in effect an underpaid office manager my boss was so pleased with me that he doubled my pay to twelve pounds per week ‘cos he only paid six of it and the government paid the other however when the two years were completed and the government subsidy of six pounds per week ceased his attitude changed during this time I qualified as a Chartered Secretary my workload kept on increasing and after blazing row I left, still go on. It took me a few months to find a decent job during this time I kept the family in funds by selling insurance door to door you know life insurance door to door for the United Friendly Insurance Company, the branch I worked for used to give a ballpoint every week to the salesman who sold the most insurance during the week after five weeks I had acquired five ballpoint pens and the inducement for all salesmen ceased, during this time I kept on answering advertisements for office managers as a result of which I recognised I acquired a recognised office managers job in Thetford ooh six hundred and fifty a year getting all right, Winnie and Rosalind remained in the rented flat in London for a few months as it took me some time to find suitable rented accommodation in Thetford, er well nothing there really nothing. We stayed in Thetford until 1969 1949 sorry the company I served manufacturing company raw material moulded pulp the raw material was discarded cardboard boxes which by immersion into water produced articles such as baby baths, trays and flower bowls we were in fact the largest producer of babies baths in England, it had another division in a branch factory in Newmarket using vulcanised fibre to make two thirds of Britain’s coal miners helmets at that time the miners workforce in the UK numbered seven hundred thousand, one of the papier mache formed the basis for motorcycle crash helmets which we sold to a firm called Helmets Limited for the vast sum of two shillings and ten pence, when the Duke of Edinburgh initiated the idea that all cyclists should wear crash helmets I persuaded my company to market a new product as we had the equipment and the technique to make completed cyclists and motorcyclists helmets, I was given carte blanche by my boss to devise a new production line and advertise and market the product which I named the Centurion this product rapidly became the most successful of all work and profit doubled during that time I qualified by correspondents course as an AC as a cost and works accountant now enjoys a more prestigious title a cost and management accountant ACMA the company was owned by an absentee board of directors I was congratulated by the chairman who said that as a result of what I had done about the crash helmet I would be given a bonus of one hundred pounds this resulted in my leaving the company and taking a job in Calcutta as chief cost accountant for the largest group of paper mills in India at three times my previous salary, oh you don’t know anymore it goes on you know, well basically after that oh yes of course I was in India, gr oooh, oh yes that could be interesting actually. I left my family with Winnie daughter Rosalind aged eight then she’s now sixty nine now she’s seventy no rising seventy still going strong.
Other: No, no you mean Winnie you mean no no no you don’t mean Ros.
CB: I mean Rosalind her daughter is nearly seventy yes that’s right, er how could she be nearly seventy then? Oh yes of course she can but I’m ninety five. In Aiden I bought a blue Rolex Oyster Royal for fourteen pounds which I still have, [laughs] must be worth a hundred or two, we landed in Bombay proceeded by rail to Calcutta here we were met taken by road to Chandannagar [?] which is on the Hooghly River about thirty miles away where we billeted in a very large flat in a compound with other paper mill executives, errr well nothing very well yes [laughs] well I’ll show you how it changed my life I was soon advised that as cost accountant I was responsible for all the accounts and I controlled the stores at that time two large paper mills the largest being in Chittiga and the other where I was based in Chandannagar [?] I was provided with a chauffeur driven limousine which enabled me to visit both mills every day Monday to Friday at each of which there was a storekeeper controlling very valuable stores for equipping the papermill machines at each mill a large area was allocated for storing of thousand tonnes of bamboo sticks for bamboo we made the paper out of the bamboo, ah and having been cut down by contractors from miles around the bamboo was weighed on arrival before being unloaded and the moisture content which varied from freshly cut forty percent moisture down to seasoned around ten percent was weighed at the main at the mill weighbridge and the contractors were paid only for the seasoned weight this was obviously capable of corruption between the contractor and the weighbridge keeper I very soon found that corruption was endemic in the end this was an example I appointed a [?] the weighbridge keepers who were Indian but understood and spoke English as at the time I spoke no Urdu one of the weighbridge keepers said to me ‘don’t worry Barron saab while I am in your backside no harm shall come to you’ it was impossible to sack anybody at the as the union was very strong so I merely had him sidestepped the other stores housed in large buildings which were locked up out of working hours by the storekeeper this was also subject to corruption and as the chief engineer British was also corrupt I found in due course that control was virtually impossible, the Head Office was in Calcutta and my own boss whose title was simply the boss my own boss he was number one and I was number four answered my query on the subject of corruption by saying tongue in cheek ‘you can take anything which you can eat or drink but nothing which crackles or rings’ there you go, social life was good especially for me, after a few months Winnie took Rosalind home to England we’d already booked Rosalind for a place in boarding school I’d taken the oh yes I’d taken the opportunity to play my violin and in fact I joined the Calcutta Symphony Orchestra as deputy lead violinist the orchestra was composed largely of amateurs like myself and it was conducted by a Welsh Englishman David Jacobs whose family owned several jute mills as Calcutta was on the world circuit of prestigious soloists and I was the only fairly knowledgeable musician we occasionally entertained famous names such as [?] and I was placed next to him keep him entertained at dinner in the luxurious head office dining room [?] and I took to each other and we had a most stimulating discussion about the life of a professional musical soloist he invited me to call on him at the Savage Club in London whenever I managed to get back to England unfortunately he died before my first home leave, I did call on David Jacob’s family in London to go and see, err [flicks through pages], oh yes [laughs] the work conditions were not without interest and occasional excitement as for example when my office was invaded by some hundreds of bamboo coolies demanding a rise in wages this was understandable because they were quote “outcasts” unquote and were at the lowest possible rate of pay thirty rupees per month about ten shillings per week of fifty pence as we now call it my hands were tied but I did manage to have their pay increased as a result of my representation on their behalf at head office this put them on equal pay with the next cast rank above whose member well the members were not at all pleased. I was rather more for more fortunate than the chief engineer of a large engineering company in Calcutta when his workforce through him in the boiler [laughs], as the executive responsible for labour relations throughout both paper mills I was chairman of the grading committee, er oh yes mmm, you don’t want to know about all that, oh yes well during this time yes I got a Dear John letter from Winnifred telling me she was leaving me and wanted to marry my best friend I was naturally devastated there had been no hint of this before I left England, my six months furlough was not due for about another year but my company were good enough to bring my furlough forward for a few months during this time I managed to divorce Winnifred and put Rosalind into a good private school and then er when I came back I had time to spare and I it was six months you see and after a couple of months I got a temporary job in National Farmers by the National Farmers Union as a representative of Joe Nickerson and Company have you heard of them well it’s very big locally er it’s a seed growing company which offered to pay me adequately for introducing a new lawn seed called “Agrosstistolernepherous” [?] to retail seed sundries man and they gave me free rein to go where I wished and call on retail seed sundries man and after, I’m cutting this short, after a few weeks I decided to report and after initial annoyance that I had not sent them weekly reports Nickerson were delighted with the number of seed sundries men I had appointed added to their customers, the annual summer dinner dance I was invited to attend as their guest the organiser was the managing director’s PA and who introduced herself to me during the course of the evening her name was Janet Franklin and we were married about one month afterwards, unfortunately I received an urgent call from my Indian employers to return to India immediately a flight [coughs] a flight had been booked for me to return on Christmas Day which meant I had to leave Janet behind for about two months while she had while she put her local affairs in order and she joined me a eighteen months later ahhh [long sigh]. I soon realised that the salary I received in India could be equalled with the greatest of difficulty and required considerable initiative and therefore initially having qualified for management accountant I decided to use it in the field of management consultancy so the first company I joined was a firm of charlatans and I left them to try my luck as a self employed consultant at this I was reasonably successful but my plants were rarely close to our home in Sussex being largely in Scotland and Northern England and this necessitated almost continued absence so when Jan Janice, not this lady, was hospitalised following a miscarriage we decided on her release to look for a home much closer to her family living in Grimsby and near Louth where she had been educated so then sixty one sold the house er in Sussex where we lived um for seven thousand five hundred pounds er and then we bought The Elms no we bought The Elms for seven thousand five hundred I think we sold the Sussex one for about the same The Elms was a large six bedroom house here in Louth er and then I was introduced to a gentleman called Ken Addison who was a general manager of a polythene film extrusion company owned by Pickford Paper Mills Ken was very anxious to run his own company but had no capital neither did I however in my travels I had made friends with a well to do business man named Anthony Jowell who was prepared to invest three thousand pounds and we needed about ten thousand although I had no money of my own my financial reputation was such that I was offered three thousand by the bank which was then the National Provincial Bank and Addison had a friend in the scrap metal motoring business and I persuaded his friend to buy three thousand to buy one thousand shares and make a shareholder for three thousand pounds and he did so the odd two thousand shares I presented to Ken Addison and he was the MD and I was the financial director that’s when we made some money real money, er do you want to know how [laughs], got pages yet, is that enough?
AH: Yeah [laughs] thank you its very interesting
CB: Cos I made another I started another company double glazing after this we sold our company that was where made some real money the first time but do you know what taxation was then? Maximum taxation of anything over one hundred thousand earnings was eighty five percent and capital gains that was the cheapest way out that was forty percent so when we sold our company we had to give the government forty percent of it doesn’t happen now its about fifteen not fair is it.
Other: If you remember tax on unearned tax on unearned income as opposed to earned income was ninety eight percent.
CB: Yeah the maximum
Other: Can you believe it?
CB: Ninety eight percent for unearned income if you were a rich person that’s the sort of money that they ought to be charging the very rich now but they don’t do they? Well that’s about roughly it oh yes the other company was double glazing
Other: Yes
CB: Yes Primo Windows
Other: Primo Windows
CB: Of course you don’t come from this area and I sold that after ten years having got this three thousand pounds and I sold that for another three hundred thousand ten years later so there we are okay.
AH: And where were you from originally?
CB: Pardon
AH: And where were you from originally?
CB: Islington.
AH: Really.
CB: Yes, 17 Chapel Market second floor above a shop of a er shop anyway where I shared two rooms with my mother, father, two brothers and a sister that was where I started.
AH: And why did you want to join the RAF?
CB: Where did?
AH: Why did you join the RAF?
CB: Well I I thought what a marvellous thing what a wonderful thing to be able to do fly like that
Other: And there was a war on too.
CB: Yes and there was a war on it was either RAF [burps] or army or navy and not being a very good swimmer navy was out for me and the army I didn’t fancy being in those blasted trenches all the time and the RAF sounded much more interesting and they accepted me so there we are [takes a drink], so I can let you have a copy of the relevant stuff if you want it [sifts through papers] er
Other: I can print some off
CB: Yes can you print pages four, five,
Other: Yes I’ll just go get it turned on
CB: Six and seven and eight I think that will do. And er at that time er I was given a job with the British Bombing Survey Unit er what the start of it actually the chap in charge was an air marshall I mean he was this was to have to investigate an air chief marshall’s duties so I I was I was a senior assistant to the bod [?] I forgot who it was now it was a very very well quite a well known name.
Other: Well that was Harris wasn’t it?
CB: No no that was the chap we were investigating.
Other: Oh right yes okay. So which is two cups I think they were actually these are clean.
CB: No these are new ones.
Other: Yes they are, there you go.
AH: Thank you.
Other: Did you have sugar? Lots of musical terms on there [laughs]
CB: Yes, er I can’t the trouble is my memory is not good it really isn’t and I.
Other: Very good you’ve just got ninety five years of memories to to drag out that’s the thing it’s the hard drive that’s full.
CB: What?
Other: The hard drive is full.
CB: Yes [laughs] I reckon.
AH: So what did you do exactly when you were there?
CB: When, when? I was well I had an office and a secretary I think yeah I did and I er I visited a I forget where a lot of information about how many aircraft which type of aircraft had had a percentage more er knocked down by the Germans and so on all sorts of things like that a lot of statistics and the statistic showed um cos I said the best things to do is to look at all the places that we were told to bomb by Harris and what the results were and he kept on um er he kept on giving the giving air command giving er fighter command the instructions to go bomb towns more than military targets and that’s why I said we killed a lot of German civilians and as a result of that that was part of my report when I said that we we er um unnecessarily went for these and put as my real reason which wasn’t quite my real reason the fact that we lost so many aircraft of our own fruitlessly that was really the sum total of what I found and he was disgraced and sent sent er but I wasn’t the only one there we were we were there was about a good half dozen of us going different areas and so on and so forth it was an important thing British Bombing Survey Unit there I had it all written down there so if you want to know [laughs] that’s what I was mainly in charge of or partly in charge anyway all right.
AH: And what reaction did you get to your report?
CB: Report well the report was then read by the top brass in Air Ministry and in due course he got the sack [laughs] well he was er he was dismissed to some very minor post in South Africa and er had no real power or duties after that and it’s only recently that some some idiots have started to resurrect him er as what a wonderful good chap he was but he really wasn’t there you are history can be distorted sometimes.
AH: And was the general view of like your family what did they think of Harris at the time?
CB: He was well they knew nothing any apart from the fact that I had lost a brother who was a navigator on Lancaster’s er I was lucky I was stuck where well I started before he did er and er didn’t get involved in bombing I was night fighting and intruding [?] and you were fine in there
AH: Where was your brother stationed?
CB: Pardon.
AH: Where was your brother stationed?
CB: Oh stationed in England and er his grave which we have visited is at er
Other: Hanover
CB: Hanover in Germany.
Other: That was very emotional wasn’t it?
CB: It was yes yes, he was he was a brainy fellow too and er he was a much brighter bloke more intelligent fellow than his elder brother who was a bit of a well nothing important shall we say yes.
AH: What was your brother called?
CB: Well he was originally christened Emmanuel but then people called him Manny and he didn’t like that so he rechristened himself Ernest and he was then called Ernie [laughs] in the same way as well I might as well admit I was born and christened my parents christened me Cyril and I didn’t like Cyril particularly in the air force where they made fun of it so I said my name was Charles and I have been Charles ever since now well it began with C so that was enough [laughs].
Other: You couldn’t do that nowadays could you [laughs] in fact it is much easier to change your surname than your given name.
CB: Well there you go.
AH: And what was it like working with when you started training on radar did you know anything about it before?
CB: Nothing whatso, well nobody did it was a high ever so secretive and as I say it was a very very important arm of the of the armed forces because we got to it before the Germans did and in consequence our our bomber um our defence night fighter defence er and day fighter for that matter ‘cos you could see them from oh even miles away so then [?] you could trace them it starts off with a ground office you’ve seen those photographs of WAFS with the stick in their hand [laughs] you can see their underclothes and there all round the table pointing at things and these are the directions that they are pointing at because you got the table was the map and they pointed to all and were told as they were told they pointed towards them and it was all done by the people controlling the radar because the radar it was a way of controlling um it would start off with a name radio direction finding that was what it was you see and they are all around us you can’t feel them or anything but there they all are and it was fantastic I wish I could remember the chap who discovered how to use them because he got highly decorated for it I think we met himah what was his name no good if it comes to be I’ll let you know but you can find that out anyway.
AH: Was it difficult to learn?
CB: We didn’t have much time did you, er I um my sole instruction of reading I had to read two tubes were two air tubes and various funny pictures upon them er one the left hand one had a line there straight along and that was the line started with the ground and ended and ended much in line with the heavens and if you were at ten thousand feet for example a little blip occurred at ten thousand it was all measured so that you would know if he was above you or below you and also how much above or how much and the distance and then you had another one like that another line like that and and there it was to the right of the left of the line either they were east or west as you were flying and however near you were or near they were to you or however further away and the idea was for us to move to use the radar which we could direct which we could find where if there was an aircraft in front of us within our our distance and our distance at that time was above er the distance we were above the ground so the higher we went the longer the tine the longer the line and this little blip was you could have a half dozen blips er above or below and there was there was also you could tell friend from foe by because they had a little er piece of equipment that once the little thing you looked at looked for and once you got the line you tried to follow it and catch it catch up with it then your pilot who had who had in a Beaufighter ohhh um four canon and six machine guns you could then shoot it down and he wouldn’t even know what hit him you see and a lot of people did that when the time came I was quite good at it as it so happens er it was as a sergeant a flight sergeant although we were on duty a lot when the commanding officer or senior officer came and there was a raid on he took over and he then went up when there was an aircraft there to get shotdown before we got a chance at it we used to get very cross about that but we weren’t officers [laughs] but there we are there all sorts of things I could teach you it would take years.
AH: Did you have to stare at it all the time?
CB: No no if the er we had loudspeakers attached to our ears and if the command if we heard there was ‘action is required’ or whatever we then we then stared we then stared at but we used it for all sorts of other reasons we used it for I had a map in front of me and if I wanted to get to a particular place a particular place say we were fifty miles away I could er I could use the radar to check where the objective was roughly and then get closer to it and closer to it until the pilot could see it so it was quite interesting – ahh I can’t remember it all that well it was a long time ago.
AH: What were the Beaufighters like?
CB: Oh great stuff um I’ll show you one.
Other: Oh right where is it its not a very big one
CB: There’s your Beaufighter [shows a picture] the pilot was there and I was there okay and we communicated by radar by telephone that’s it very manoeuvrable it was oh yeah and he was thank heaven for me he was a first class pilot and he seemed to think I was a decent navigator so we got on well in fact we got to know each other and he visited us after the war and we visited him in Canada, yes but he’s dead now died of natural causes.
AH: How come you went to a Canadian Squadron?
CB: That was when at the time it was the nearest definite one that was available that’s all I cannot tell you why I was picked in the Canadian Squadron or not I was very pleased about it eventually it didn’t make any difference to me whether it was Canadian or English but the Canadians were a good lot they really were, yeah I imagine that they were ones that had been they had been fully equipped and were and had so they were granted an airfield and off we went.
AH: And when you were flying to Rangoon and Mandalay were they Beaufighters as well?
CB: Oh yeah yes they were Beaufighters as well very very serviceable aircraft then they were outgrown in speed er and er by the Mosquitoes you heard of the Mosquitoes and I but the last couple of months they finally because we were the forgotten air force really out in India um we had to put up with Mos with Beaufighters for two and a half years really and then for a few a couple of months that was all I was I converted to Mosquitoes and then they said ‘no you are an officer now we’ve got an office for you now in Delhi go there so we went there do as you are told’.
Other: It was in Delhi where everybody ran screaming into the when the Japanese came over everybody ran screaming into the woods in Delhi.
CB: No from Calcutta which is east east they came and they took over Burma
Other: Oh yes
CB: And eventually they couldn’t they didn’t take over what is it now part of India called Bangladesh no it’s separate now which was Bengal which was at this end of Burma and so they never took that over completely although the British Army had a had an army which was defended they defended itself for who what was the number of that [?] well it’s in there somewhere I think anyway and er they defended themselves but they didn’t couldn’t defend them from the Japanese taking over Burma and that was when we had to fight from in the air to get it back and at that time the east part er the north east that way we managed to hang on to that bit and I was stationed at Chittagong you’ve heard of Chittagong look at the map and you’ll get a rough idea I suppose it would interest everybody it would interest at that time all we wanted to do was get home of course but three years [laughs] – and as I always did what I was told I got promoted [laughs].
Other: Don’t believe a word of it [laughs]
AH: Could you describe a flight for example to Rangoon?
CB: Could I describe a flight most of the time it was boring it just went boom boom boom for a thousand miles or so from where we were was it no it wasn’t quite as far as that it was about six or seven hundred miles oh yeah easy um that’s right then we had to find where we told to shoot at which we did through radar [laughs] and fly back unhurt we were lucky.
AH: What did you do in your spare time?
CB: How dare you [laughs] I don’t know what I did in my spare time probably got drunk half the time we had quite a lot to drink but that was in our spare time we were not supposed to well we had those of us who survived anyway had the common sense not to get drunk so that we couldn’t operate decently after all we had a family at home.
AH: Were there other people that didn’t though?
CB: Well people did get killed yes, Pring the man who shot those first three he didn’t survive so it was one of those things, ah.
Other: Still there can’t be many more survivors around really.
CB: Oh there are.
Other: No there can’t be you’ve got to be
CB: No not now who are still alive
Other: You’ve got to be seventy five upwards haven’t you at least may be more
AH: Yeah more may be
CB: Oh yes you won’t have any youngsters, I was always twenty years younger than the century very easy to remember.
AH: And was your father in the First World War?
CB: He was but er he wasn’t English he was Rumanian and my mother was Lithuanian and I am a Jew as you’ve gathered.
AH: So when did they come to Britain?
CB: Oh they came they came to Britain from their relative countries before the First World War before the First World War to escape the er Pogroms, Russian Russian and Rumanian Pogroms and er they had relatives that I lost touch with I’m afraid a long time ago they had relatives in Manchester and er and er in London so er we ended up in London and er I cannot understand this but we ended up in London but the people who to be honest I can’t explain it but the people who they got in touch with who they were related both my mother’s relatives related to people in Manchester why my parents and co ended up in London and settled there I just cannot tell you but they did and of course there was quite a large Jewish population in the east end of London and er.
Other: Anyway London was nearer to Europe.
CB: London was nearer to Europe so it was easier to get to I suppose yes, there is so much of my early years I just cannot understand the domestic situation all I know is that we were not very well off you see there we are.
AH: Were you aware of the build up were you like Cable Street and?
CB: Cable Street
AH: Yes
CB: Cable Street that was Jewish yes that was Jewish but we didn’t live there that was the east end for some reason or other we settled in I no there was in Chapel Street London it was a Rumanian Jewish settlement and it was a market and they used to have stalls stalls stalls rather outside shops some of them quite a few of them had er either owned or rented the shop and were quite well to do but my parents did have a shop and had to rent a stall so there we are no we weren’t very well off shall we say [laughs] there you go it happens.
Other: So the remote chance of you being in North Lincolnshire at this point in time amazing isn’t it.
CB: Well as I say that that you’ll find in there as to where why we came to Lincolnshire why I came to Lincolnshire we didn’t come together my first wife had gone off with my best friend and my second wife I hadn’t met until I er was asked by these Nickersons who were very very wealthy farmers in where we are very wealthy now and er by Nickersons to er and I volunteered I put an advert in the Times ‘cos I’d done the divorcing bit and I had four months to spare before I went back from my six months furlough back to my accounting firm in India you see and er it was then I put this advert in the Times saying I had this four months did anybody want to employ me and they did having interviewed me here some in Grimsby yes and given me this job er particularly it was rather nice for them no no no this was a long time after after [?] I’m getting myself confused I’m sorry but er
Other: You know there used to be in the time when lots of people worked in India and other places and they would normally do two and a half years overseas and then come back for six months.
CB: This is what I did.
Other: This is what he did and I’ll tell you they were a bit of a menace sometimes because they were coming back with nothing to do for six months can you imagine it.
CB: Well as I say.
Other: Particularly if they didn’t have families you know.
CB: Well I had lost my first wife I’d divorced my first wife and her daughter had been born then Rosalind who’s alive now but er I’d got her into what’s the name of the top class school?
Other: Roedean
CB: I got her into Roedean so she had a Roedean education and on holiday she used to be with my sister my sister had a home in London and it was quite a nice home her husband was the you see that carpet there in the next room have you had a look at it it’s a very good one he used to be the branch manager of Derry and Toms Carpeting department [laughs] and I got that comparatively cheaply but I suppose probably wouldn’t make much difference now I’ve had it some considerable time but it’s a very nice carpet do you want to have a look at it? [laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Charles Baron
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-21
Format
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01:09:51 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABaronC160321
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Baron grew up in London and volunteered for aircrew in 1940. He trained as a navigator and on radar. He later volunteered for overseas duties and was posted to India where he flew intruder operations over Burma. After the war he worked training Indian Air Force ground personnel and with the British Bombing Survey. When he left the Air Force he qualified as a Chartered Secretary and worked in India and the UK.
Contributor
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Jackie Simpson
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Burma
Egypt
Great Britain
India
United States
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
aircrew
Asian heritage
Beaufighter
Blenheim
entertainment
faith
final resting place
forced landing
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
navigator
perception of bombing war
radar
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/476/8358/PBrettDT1501.2.jpg
118e663bc5324bf07e5a67487e6467b1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/476/8358/ABrettD150522.2.mp3
81384cf913618625f74e822cf9a8f9c1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brett, Dennis
Dennis T Brett
D T Brett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Brett, DT
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Dennis Brett (b. 1924) and four photographs. He served as an air frame mechanic at RAF Carnaby.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Dennis Brett and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-22
2015-07-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
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MJ: It’s on.
DTB: Dennis T Brett. Born 4 9 24. RAF service 12 11 42 to 5 3 47. Tested and found to have mechanical ability and so trained as a flight mechanic airframe at RAF Locking. Served mainly in Yorkshire at Driffield on Martinets. Leconfield, Lissett, Holme on Spalding Moor and Carnaby. Carnaby -
[machine pause]
MJ: Go on.
DTB: Carnaby was used for emergency landings along with two others, Woodbridge and Manston. They were known colloquially as crash ‘dromes. A wide variety of English and American aircraft was seen at Carnaby and on very foggy nights FIDO was in operation. Soon after the war ended I was taken on a low level flight in a Halifax to see the extent of damage inflicted on German cities by aircraft of Bomber Command. My last six months of service was spent in Italy, Egypt and Palestine with a Dakota squadron of Transport Command. Right. In wartime Britain there were three emergency landing grounds a little inland from the east coast. They were Manson, Woodbridge and, in the north, Carnaby, about three miles from Bridlington in Yorkshire. Their purpose was to allow damaged aircraft, sometimes with injured crew, to land if necessary without warning. To facilitate this the runways were large. Carnaby’s being three miles long and three runways wide. The soft bituminous surface was to minimise friction caused by a rough landing. When I arrived [pause] we saw and serviced a variety of aircraft. English and American. Can you put that off?
[machine pause]
We saw and serviced a variety of aircraft. English and American. The US crews were not noted for their navigational skills. I recall seeing the three twin-engined Whirlwinds the crew of which seemed to be lost. One pilot remarked, ‘We thought we were in North Devon.’ When a damaged aircraft landed our fire crews rushed to extinguish any flames. The armourers checked for bombs and guns. And the riggers took, looked for any physical damage to the aircraft and then towed the aircraft away to dispersal. We were puzzled one night when after landing safely the crew got out of the aircraft and ran. They soon told us that there was a long delay fused bomb on board likely to explode at any moment. It was the armourers of course who had to be there to defuse the bomb before other workers were allowed near the aircraft. Can we?
[machine paused]
Sometimes I was on special night duty all alone in a small hut at one end of the runway. This was more than a mile away from the control tower. My bed was two or three feet away from an electrical installation which bore the warning, “Danger 11000 volts.” We were always ready to receive aircraft but on bombing nights we were especially alert. I’m sorry.
[machine paused]
My job was then to operate the lighting system. On receiving an order from the control tower I would pull a switch to turn on the sodium funnel lights. These were spaced in a narrowing V shape embedded near the foot of the runway and were a guide for aircraft approaching to land. The lights were arranged in the shape of a funnel. In bad weather and when many aircraft were expected the order would be given to ‘strike arc’ and I then had to pull a switch to activate the searchlight system. Searchlights were positioned, one each side of the runway, at its entrance. They were angled towards each other to form a cross so that incoming aircraft could enter through the triangular shape below the cross. Bad weather was a great danger to airmen returning tired and cold from a raid lasting eight or more hours. Fog was a major problem. As a counter measure a system of pipework called FIDO, Fog Instantaneous Dispersal Operation had been installed along each side of the runway. In operation, petrol was pumped through the holes in the pipework, then ignited to produce flames several feet high. This was meant to clear the fog and it probably did so but at the time I thought its great value was that the flames could be seen by pilots trying to land. In such circumstances a successful landing was a tremendous relief for the aircrew. This might seem far-fetched but I was a personal witness to a memorable incident when a Lancaster had come in to a halt the crew got out and some of them actually kissed the ground. Reminders of the darker side of war were frequent. Crash landings were a common sight. A faulty undercarriage was usually the cause and the result was what we called a belly landing. Some aircraft burst into flames when landing. Others were already on fire as they approached. The sight of a red gun turret is one that I cannot forget. Even our medical officer was seen to turn pale sometimes. But there was also a lighter side to life at Carnaby. Sometimes a bad landing would cause an aircraft to bounce not just once but in a continuing series from which the pilot could not escape until the laws of physics allowed. We called this a kangaroo landing. The Yorkshire winter was harsh. One night the wind caused my eyes to water and the intense cold froze my tears so that I could not open my eyes. This was only momentary and a good rub was all that was needed to solve the problem. The snow lay thick everywhere and this emboldened the local rats to come rather too close to our hut. We shot at them with our sten guns but I doubt whether we hit any.
[machine paused]
Our commanding officer was a very experienced pilot who was known to have seen much action in the war. His free and easy manner was in direct contrast to the usual strictly authoritarian attitude of the administrators. He would sometimes sit outside the control tower with his legs dangling through the railings swinging them to and fro. In this way he was exhibiting his persona for all to see. I happened to be on duty when he decided to take a Sunday afternoon trip with his young son. After I’d pulled away the chocks and motioned him out he asked me if I would like to come too and I gladly agreed. One fine day I noticed a large number of, to me, unidentified aircraft all flying eastwards. They were not in any kind of formation. They were towing gliders. These gliders were at a certain angle to my vision so that only one wing was visible. A strange sight. It soon became obvious to us that the invasion of Normandy had begun. The gliders were, I believe, Horsas and the planes were DC3, better known as Dakotas. I was soon to become much more familiar with them when I was transferred to a Dakota squadron. At the end of the war I was invited to go up in a Halifax to retrace some of the routes our bombers had taken and to witness the devastation. We flew low over a number of cities including Rotterdam which had been bombed by the Germans and battle areas such as Arnhem and Aachen. Our pilot was on a high, in high spirits after the ending of hostilities. He would approach a city from a certain height and dive bomb it at an angle of about forty five degrees. Then over the city he would pull up sharply out of the dive. This continuing sensation was too much for me and I was physically sick for most of the flight home and my muscles ached for a week afterwards. I still have a reluctance to fly though I had to do so in 1981 when I was seconded to the City University of New York. To my regret the airline did not provide a parachute. Large four-engined, large four-engined aircraft such as the Stirling, Halifax, Lancaster and Fortress were designed for level flight not aerobatics and for a Halifax to be flown in such a vigorous way says much for the strength and construction of this, this aircraft. My experience at Carnaby remained long in my memory. Forty years later I would sometimes wake up in the night. In my dream a large four-engined bomber coming in towards me to crash land.
[machine paused]
Well my elder brother was in Coastal Command and used to fly as the wireless operator rear gunner in a Beaufort and I think it was in 1942 when the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau German battleships made a dash through the channel. He was engaged in torpedoing the Scharnhorst but in the process he was badly wounded and received shrapnel in various parts of the body and face and managed to survive. The gun turret was badly damaged and for this service he was awarded the mention in dispatches. I think that’s all that can be said there.
MJ: What was your actual job in the RAF?
DTB: Well I was what was known as a flight mechanic airframe otherwise known as a rigger and we were responsible for the whole of the aircraft physically other than the engine and the guns. And we had daily inspections for which we had to sign from the safety point of view. We had to check brakes, hydraulics, the movement of the flaps, rudder, elevators and of course petrol filling and so on and we had to make body work repairs where necessary.
MJ: How did you do that?
DTB: Whether it, well on early aircraft it would be on [pause] covered in, the early aircraft, I think the wimpy as well was covered in cloth. Muslin or, not muslin, no. Irish linen and we learned how to make a repair for that. On most of the aircraft they were metal and we had to make a hole and rivet all around it and patch them in that way but that was it. The whole of the aircraft had to be inspected and many points inspected and then signed for for the safety of the pilot. The Lancaster which was the best. It was the fastest and could carry the heaviest bomb load. The Halifax was next and then the other one. I can’t remember the name of it you know.
MJ: Yeah. I can’t remember exactly what one it is but I know which one you mean so, yeah.
DTB: But of course, you know there are other aircraft as well. The Mosquito was the fastest aircraft in that war and it was a bomber and it was a fighter bomber.
MJ: Yeah. Didn’t they take off from the airports with the flame?
DTB: No. It wasn’t a biplane. No.
MJ: No. No. They used to take off in the fog didn’t they?
DTB: There were Swordfish in the early days, I think the Swordfish was in that battle with the Scharnhorst as well as the Beauforts.
MJ: Yeah.
DTB: Well there we are.
MJ: Here’s the end of the interview with Dennis Brett at Ruskington. The International Bomber Command would like to thank him for his recording on the date of the 22nd of May 2015. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dennis Brett
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-22
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABrettD150522, PBrettDT1501
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis was born in 1924 and joined the Royal Air Force in November 1942. He trained as a flight mechanic airframe at RAF Locking and was responsible for the whole of the aircraft, apart from the engines and the guns. Dennis explained the emergency landing grounds at RAF Manston, RAF Woodbridge and RAF Carnaby, which were wider to allow damaged aircraft to land safely. His last six months of service were spent in Italy, Egypt and Palestine with a C-47 squadron of Transport Command.
Sometimes Dennis was on special night duty alone in a hut a mile away from the control tower. His job was to operate the lighting system on receiving an order from the control tower. He referred to a memorable incident when a Lancaster landed safely and some of the crew kissed the ground.
When the invasion of Normandy began Dennis was transferred to a C-47 squadron. At the end of the war he went up in a Halifax to retrace some of the routes the bombers had taken and to witness the devastation. He left the RAF in 1947. In 1981 Dennis was seconded to the City University of New York.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
United States
Egypt
Italy
Middle East
England--Kent
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
England--Somerset
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:19 audio recording
bombing
C-47
control tower
Cook’s tour
FIDO
fitter airframe
flight mechanic
ground crew
Halifax
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Carnaby
RAF Locking
RAF Manston
RAF Woodbridge
training
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/477/8359/ABrileyW150522.1.mp3
18e7d5718da098c6dae85ec69ead9533
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/477/8359/PBrileyWG1503.2.jpg
ccd30a6b9b18cea87c0269a963f6dc2b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Briley, William George
George Briley
W G Briley
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Briley, WG
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer William George Briley (1586825, Royal Air Force), his log book, service material and a sight log book containing <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/987">18 target photographs</a>. After training in South Africa, George Briley completed 39 bombing and supply dropping operations as a navigator with 40 Squadron flying Wellingtons from Foggia in Italy. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by William George Briley and catalogued by Barry Hunter, <span>with additional identification provided by the Archeologi dell'Aria research group (</span><a href="https://www.archeologidellaria.org/">https://www.archeologidellaria.org</a><span>)</span>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MJ: Now.
WB: My name is Warrant Officer Briley. I’m recording this for the International Bomber Command Centre on 22 May 19 - 2015. And we - where I am is at Ruskington in Lincolnshire. I’ll try and see if I can. Well, my first big run to get to a training place was down to South Africa where I stayed for five months and picked up my brevet. And then, where I, I came back down by flying boat which took four days from Durban to Cairo. From then onwards, I was doing all around that area until they had vacancies up on the training field where the temperature of 150 – 120 was very warm. Then we got back down to Cairo and for - picked up me flight to Italy where I went through Naples and out then to Foggia where I stayed with the 40 Squadron the whole time until I’d finished my term, and then I went back to Naples and they gave me a [unclear]. That gave me a lot more places and also I was sent up to Athens where I was a gunner on on private Wellingtons that had been stripped with passengers and freight all over the Middle East. Then then I was – land – I was - oh sorry. After we done all that I was land down – I was down on the ground there until they got me a job back on Egypt where they sent me up to Udine in northern Italy. No no way of getting up there, but I went out and a British army driver took me all the way, which was very good of him, and the little – when I got up there they hadn’t a clue what I was doing up there for, although they knew themselves, 39 Squadron it was and they gave me a leave over the weekend when I got there and there’s a chance I had of seeing and being in Venice in the holiday part of the RAF they had out there. We came back by a big – by a big plane from Bari having had a train journey all the way back. And that landed me on besides the besides the canal on the Suez Canal and from there we were doing I was doing quite a lot of driving which I wanted to do until they found a place for me which was in El Alamein[?] Back to Cairo and on to the flying the flying out to El Adam [?]. And I stayed here that’s where I picked up my WO. And I and I was put in charge, once I got away the driving they put me in charge of a sy – system well, well in in in an where the people going through and also the pilots and that. I had to, had to sign them through. Some didn’t want to do that and but then they had to. They got no signature otherwise. Anyway, from there that’s when I was sent – I was on leave then at the end and I made out. I picked up my brother who was in Cairo or rather he was up in – he was up in Palestine. Picked him up, we went to Haifa and stayed a fortnight. We enjoyed ourselves. I, I was lucky in that ‘cause I – that’s one brother. The other brother I picked up on the way in at Cairo. So I doubt if there were many other brothers who met du – met during the war. So [unclear] in the end it – we came by boat from Alexandria to Toulon. Waited there for the train back to England. And came – got back in June. One of the coldest Junes I think I knew at that time, especially when you’d been at a temperature of a hundred-and-twenty and that. Now the temperature here went across that boat was really ferocious. And then we was sent up to Wednesbury for discharge. They had to make a suit for me I was so ruddy small and out of all proportion and today I’m even worse. The trouble is I aint going in. I was dead on the lowest figure. When I was on the Foggia we took off from Foggia and went down the Corinth Canal or to it, where we had been told there was a big storm up. It’s too high to go over. Too low to go under. So we were given a height which was about the best. As we came into it. Here we go, the thing is we went up like a ruddy express [mumble] express lift, and stopped and went down straight away, and oh my head hit the blooming geodetics. It, it was so loud the pilot put - turned put it hard head round. He said: ‘What was that?’ I said ‘That was my flipping head.’ [Chuckles] It was yeah.
MJ: Yeah yeah.
WB: Yeah, we got through it and carried on. [Chuckle]
MJ: Well, well that’s the sort of thing –
WB: Yeah
MJ: - that you got to remember, you know.
WB: Hmm. [Chuckle].
MJ: What was it about the bridge?
WB: Eh?
MJ: That one about the bridge? You said about the [unclear]. Can you repeat that?
WB: Yes.
MJ: Please.
WB: [Sigh] [Background noise] I done that one.
MJ: So, so what was the story about that one?
WB: No, it’s not. It’s this one. The one with the four-thousand pound bomb. Kitzscher [?] And – our – well I was quite, quite surprised, you know, you see, where this bomb was. It was only a big hole that was there and they – one of the Italians came about and said ‘What you looking at it for?’ I said ‘I got an idea that’s our bomb.’ ‘Oh,’ he said – he said ‘What has happened?’ He said ’There were two trains on that bridge when you dropped it.’ He said ’One of them went into it to– [unclear] into reinforcements and one coming out. He said: ‘The one coming out got the bar –part of it. The whole the back of [unclear] train and that other one run into the hole that was there. [Chuckle] He says: ‘So you done a damn good job.’ [Laughter]. I’ve never been seen anybody about that - the crew I could tell to.
MJ: Well that’s -
WB: Yeah.
MJ: That’s the good part about it.
WB: Apparently in the Blitz –
MJ: Yeah.
WB: The eight months Blitz. Every night. [Chuckle]. And, it’s so much so I managed to get it out of – but other people commanding me. ‘I can’t go on the back of this bike.’ I said ‘Why not?’ He said ‘Well, I’m out in the open.’ I should have sat on mine all the time. [Chuckle] Any rate, in the end, a number of them complained about it and but, they were more or less protecting me. [Laugh]. I can see their point and any way, they said – they asked me whether I’d like to learn how to drive. I said ‘I would very much.’ And so they brought a driver in from a local gas company depot and he said ‘Now, let’s see. What do you wanna learn?’ I said: ‘Anything I can drive. I was able to – so lorries and that.’ ‘Ah, so you want double declutching.’ You know to this day, and that was in the war. To this day, I still use, I didn’t realise it, part of the double declutching.
MJ: Hm.
WB: Right the way through, and it was only my sister who told me that my changing up and changing down and that was smooth, and I can’t see how it – how it can be smooth? And I worked it out. The – I wasn’t doing the whole double declutching, what I was doing – now with double declutching you use your feet as well. That’s all I wasn’t doing. [Mumble] Step in here.
MJ: Here. It’s good. What – what –
WB: What?
MJ: What – what sort of ops and things did you actually stand out for one reason of another?
WB: What you want me to do?
MJ: I’m here.
WB: Supplied it and then I went and got – I went there to be of service there. [Laughter]. All on one aerodrome. We called it Kalamaki Avenue[?]. It was –
MJ: So – what ‘s that bit of paper?
WB: Yeah. [Unclear]. Can’t hardly read it now. [Unclear] Penetration. Frontal conditions. Last night your bombers carried out their mission with excellent results. This attack which – which you carried out [unclear] or in the port of crews participated. Please convey to all ranks under your command my opposition – appreciation of this noteworthy effort. That was from the Group Captain commanding 263 Wing.
MJ: What did you have to do in that?
WB: Hm?
MJ: What what what was the op? Operation? What operation – what?
WB: Oh these aerodromes.
MJ: You say you had to bomb them? Or –
WB: No, it – thing is they were all bombed on one night by different – they sent out the squadron. Three or four to one – three or four to [unclear].
MJ:
WB: I don’t think that was the one that hit me on the head. I hadn’t been given my flight badge then. I was just a Sergeant. [Pause]. 9th to the 10th of October 1944 [turning of pages] 9 10 of October –
MJ: What was that op?
WB: Hm.
MJ: What did you have to do for that one?
WB: [Pause] On the – on the 4th – 4th of October ’44 we went to the Danube and put a mine – two mines down there. Have having had to fly there at thirty foot and then there was a a – I think there was haystacks even higher than we were. So I was expecting anytime that we – that we should get a gun from behind them. Then the next one we went on the 9th we went to Athens, we did that and they were put for us they were pretty long trips. Athens six hours and the Danube was five fifty-one.
MJ: So what – why did you that one to similar to the Dam Busters one. Why?
WB: It was the [unclear] valley. There’s the valley. South, it was south of one of their big cities. I forget which one it was. Began with a B, I know that. [Laughter].
MJ: So what did you have to do that made it similar to the other dams? Did you have to go lower or was it just too hot or what?
WB: While we kept low was to get underneath their mining thing and also we were down there so as we could get in underneath it and without them noticing it, and we didn’t – did manage it seems ‘cause nobody came to try and have a go at us. Then five days later we went over there again. Not this to the Danube which was up south of a – a big city beginning with B, I think it was. And this this second one, our eleventh was on Kalamaki operation bombed over flares. So we had two long ones. [Pause] I know that we bombed one of the American bombings. They gave us a photo of what they had left. When we got there it hadn’t even been touched. So we had to do all the bombing for them. That’s the Americans all along, which I never did quite like.
MJ: [Unclear]
WB: [Unclear]. More modern, modern aircraft and that. I mean the Wellington was a pre-war, but we had it all the way through the war out there.
MJ: So did you fly different aircraft more often or just one particular one? ‘Cause you got –
WB: You could hardly see the blinder[?]. All I know is it was going off track and I couldn’t I couldn’t get the thing to go in at all. In the end, when he when he went ran out of [unclear] I expect and well that’s that. He said ‘[Unclear] Which way you going? I said ‘No, you’re too late to go the back.’ I said ‘So turn on and face, face Yugoslavia.’ And I said ‘When you get - as soon as you’ve seen the mountains over there, turn south. Don’t wait for me.’ I said ‘Then we’ll sort – start sorting out some.’ Anyway I got ‘em back in.
MJ: So what happened when you got to base then?
WB: Then – then I was a bit late when I got, of course, when we got in. But after that on three occasions I got them to go another route because there was a blooming eight-hundred – and sent us out on our own valley, there was a hill eight-hundred foot high and quite often the clouds comes came down so they forced them under the thousand so I sort of – ‘What’s the matter Briley?’ I said : ‘There’s a hill in that valley eight hundred foot.’ Said ‘Yeah.’ So he turned round to his thing[?]and said ‘Go and see if he’s right.’ The bloke said when he came back he said : ‘He’s right.’ ‘Oh, sent him round the end of the peninsula.’ That happened three times. I had to – ‘cause I knew where it was. I was coming in through the valley at two-thousand in the cloud dived down at the end where I knew it’d be.’ ‘Didn’t you – didn’t you see the target?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Well how come you came back here half-hour before any others [unclear]. I said ‘’Cause I used the valley.’ ‘But you told us.’ ‘But yeah I know where it is.’
MJ: So you took a short cut?
WB: Yep. You see the second time he was sending me down for – I I didn’t do much on that. I knew it – I knew how it was. So so we had a look down at it and found this thing this hill. ‘Right we can use that.’ I did on three occasions. Got back in. Nice time I was the only one on breakfast. [Chuckle]. Everybody else came in half-hour later. Every time ‘Missed it again.’ I said : ‘No we did not miss it.’ Berh, that was another bleeding officer and then, and I gather from one of our other, one of the crew I saw in Cairo. He said ‘You know what has happened up at up at - up at Foggia?’ I said ‘No.’ ‘ See they sent out those big aircraft, up our valley at a thousand feet.’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Three crashed into that hill you told them about.’ I said ‘That’s bloody murder.’ And if I had my way I’d have had him but they took no notice of me, but it was them that - I mean the big aircraft, American aircraft has about twelve people on board. The Wellington only had five. You think it. Three aircraft. Thirty-six. Dead. Before they’d even started.
MJ: ‘Cause they took the wrong route.
WB: Yeah. I wish I could have done but you supposed to be a – on their side. [Laughter]. Yeah. And one or two people told me about it and I said that ‘I said I quite agree with ya. But we daren’t do it.’
MJ: Yeah.
WB: Whether they learned after that when they hit this hill there’s one way to find out. Not the [unclear] of the bleeding crew though.
MJ: Was there any more situations like that you had before? Was it a lot like that?
WB: Yeah well. This is how it is.
MJ: Yeah.
WB: Another time she came down to – oh blimey – begins will L.
MJ: Well –
WB: Yeah.
MJ: Yeah. Well anyway yeah.
WB: Yeah. Anyway, she came down there. I was [unclear] been on there a fortnight and she said ‘That comes off.’
MJ: So you had to lose your –
WB: So my mate said ‘Are you gonna?’ ‘No,’ I said ‘I’ve got home. I’ve worked it out. I want us to have three weeks to see what it’s like.’ Anyway, I didn’t get any in the end. Wasn’t for her, it was for myself. It itched though underneath. [Shudder].
MJ: Yeah I know.
WB: So I –
MJ: Yeah. Don’t go good with a uniform. So I put that on. Ok I’m gonna take a photo. You in 40 Squadron.
WB: That’s 40 Squadron in 3 Group with Wellingtons in 1940 or ‘41. Towards the end of ’41, 40 Squadron moved toward Malta. Moved to Egypt early in ’42 into 205 Group. Moving to North Africa and eventually to Italy. During – I joined 40 Squadron in Foggia Italy in August ’44. First flight 30th of August ’44 and first op 1st of September ’44. And last one 39, 21st of January 1945. Book says last, last 13th of March. Hmm, it’s wrong. Otherwise how was I doing it in ’45?
MJ: There’s there’s –
WB: It was a remake Manchester. Found that the Manchester were two Merlins was like the blooming Wellington Mark II was Merlins. They’re useless, so they took it back, extended the wing, put in two more engines and extended other things, call it the Lancaster, and it was a success. Makes you wonder doesn’t it?
MJ: It does yeah.
WB: I’m lying. I don’t think it’s been made public much ‘cause the Manchester was a dud.
MJ: Yeah.
WB: Hmm.
MJ: This is Michael Jeffery on behalf of the International Bomber Command Historical Project Unit. Thank you to William Briley for his recording.
WB: It won’t. Make it George, George Briley.
MJ: George Briley, it is.
WB: George, it’s what I’m known as. You’ll find on here that no one knows about a Duckworth[?]. It’s George everybody.
MJ: Well that’s good.
WB: Yeah.
MJ: Well, it’s very nice to meet you George. Thank you very much for you co-operation and your photographs and such like and I hope to meet you again. On behalf of the International Bomber Command, thank you again. On the 22nd of May 2015.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with William George Briley
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Mick Jeffery
Date
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2015-05-22
Format
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00:28:49 Audio recording
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Sound
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ABrileyW150522
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
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1944-10
Contributor
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Gemma Clapton
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
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After training in South Africa, William Briley flew operations as a navigator with 40 Squadron flying Wellingtons from Foggia, Italy. One of his operations involved the dropping of a 4000lb bomb which derailed two trains. He was also involved in mine laying in the Danube.
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Greece
Italy
Italy
Danube River
South Africa
Greece--Zakynthos
Italy--Foggia
Greece--Corinth Canal
Danube River
40 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
mine laying
navigator
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/483/8366/PBullockWEJ1601.1.jpg
e627ecce44c4059c1c2fa2c19bc04d9e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/483/8366/ABullockWEJ151030.1.mp3
bd718c14898350813bae5fe77b18d09f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bullock, William
William Edward James Bullock
W E J Bullock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Bullock, WEJ
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant William Bullock (1916 - 2017, 566069 Royal Air Force) and a memoir. He served in Egypt and Iraq before serving as an engineering officer at RAF East Kirkby and Coningsby.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by William Bullock and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles [AH]. The interviewee is William Bullock [WB]. The interview is taking place at Mr Bullocks home in Horncastle, Lincolnshire on 30th October 2015.
[noise]
WB : What?
PH: You can start now.
WB: Well, What? I was born in Marshfield.
PH: Yeah.
WB: Yeah in Gloucestershire, September 30th 1916, That’s right. And after two or three years we moved into Bath, and eventually I got a scholarship to the secondary school, and, in 1932 I took the entrance exam for the RAF apprentices, and I got through alright. When I went to Holton as an apprentice for three years and I passed out in 1935, and went to Altarum[?]. It was an ex-naval Air Station, way back, and we kept time with the ships bell in the guard room [chuckle]. in the guard room. Anyway, in February ’37, well, we got posted to Egypt for Florin[?] Training School and when the war started we moved from Egypt to Havaneer[?] in Iraq. And in, I think it was in May, May ’41 the Iraqis were trying to get us out of their country and let the Germans in, and they surrounded the camp and they shelled us and bombed us for five days, day and night, bombs and shells. And, anyway, we gave a good account of ourselves and when we killed a lot of them, and in the end they decided to pack up and go. Then in, well, about May I came home, and I went to Cranwell on a Coastal Command Station, and anyways, was there for about eight months. Then I got moved to Wigsley which was is a Bomber Command training unit, training pilots for Lancasters and whatnot. And, ow, I think that would be May, May ’41 was it? I, I decided to take commission and I was commissioned as an engineer officer and I moved around various places. I did a year at East Kirkby as the Technical Adjutant doing all the paperwork and whatnot. And, anyway, I did a year there, and then I moved to Metheringham, 106 Squadron, and anyway I was there, they, they worked me fairly hard and the engineer, the group engineer came down and he said ‘Right, I want to move you Coningsby, to pathfinder squadrons, forty Lancasters. Do you think you can cope?’ I said: ‘I’ll do my best sir.’ He said ‘Right, get there on Monday. You can be a Flight Lieutenant on Friday.’ Anyway, I got there and I worked hard for, oh, three, four months and always kept me forty Lancasters going. And well then, of course, the war packed up. The Japs, the Germans packed init, and I moved to Strubby we were’re living in tents and we were waiting to go to Okinawa to bomb Japs. And then the Japs packed in, so we moved, I was there for a bit and then I we got moved, got posted to a unit over by Chester, 54 RUP. And I moved in, I reported in to senior officer. And I said: ‘RUP?’ He said: ‘Yeah.’ I said: ‘ Well, RUP? R U Repair Unit, P what’s planned.’ He said: ‘Oh bulldozers, excavators and that sort of stuff.’ ‘Oh, I’m an aircraft engineer, I’m going back to Strubby.’ He said: ‘You’re bloody well not. You’re gonna Singapore next Wednesday.’ [chuckle] Anyway, we got, I got a fortnight leave before I went to Singapore and in that time I did quick and got married to Mary. Dashed into Lincoln, got a licence from the Bishops, whatever-he-was. And we got married, got married on the Wednesday and on the Saturday recalled from leave and the next Wednesday Singapore [laugh]. And got out there but the unit I was with they never really did get never got off the ground because we, we were supposed to be repairing all sorts of, you know, bull- bulldozers, and excavators and all that sort of stuff [belch] but the machinery never turned up and in the end, in the end they more-or-less disbanded the outfit and they kept me on and all the airfield construction plants, masses of bulldozers and cranes and all that sort of stuff, they said: ‘Right now transfer that to Air Ministry Works Department, the civvy lot’, so I spent all the this time getting this stuff transferred. And then the unit at Hong Kong closed down and all their stuff came down to Singapore by ship. And they said: ‘You will collect it from the docks and take it up to Changi. And it was hard work. Anyway, we managed it, we got it there. And in the meantime, we were living in tents. But anyway, I did me spell there then, and oh what, I decided to relinquish my commission and come home. I weren’t all that happy, so I packed up and came home, and I went back in the ranks as a flight sergeant, and I soon became a warrant officer and I did, oh, I did a spell at Waddington and Hemswell home on and Spalding Moor, and then got moved to Germany, up at Sylt, up on the north Frisian Islands. And I broke[?] there for a couple of years, and came back and went Shrewsbury I’we did six very nice years at Shrewsbury, very nice years at Shrewsbury and then I got moved again up to Lynton-on-Ouse and blow-me-down if they didn’t send me back to Germany [laugh]. At this time we went to Cologne, just on the Zeiderhorf on the outskirts of Cologne. It was very nice and Mary came out and joined me there [sup on tea] and had a couple of very nice years in Germany. And then when we came back, where’d I go? Where’d I go from [pause] I can’t think where I came back to [pause], not sure really. Sure, I can’t remember. Turn that thing off.
[restart of recording]
WB : I can’t remember, what was it year? Anyway, in Germany, I was up at Sylt and there was six of us. It was in the Cold War time, so called. And there was six of us trained on this Enigma machine and, you know, it was quite the thing and one day I got there and they said: ‘Your best blue is, in the back of that van is one of our Enigma machines and it’s got to go headquarters at Buckleburg [?], 200 mile away.’ And they said: ‘You are taking it.’ I said: ‘Oh.’ He said: ‘Your orders are get it there and if you need this, don’t hesitate to use it.’ And they gave me a revolver and a box of ammunition. They said: ‘You have to use it, use it, but that must be got there!’ Anyway, we got it there, no bother, and coming back the following morning the battery packed up. We called into an RAF camp, they didn’t want to know us. A bit later on we met a RAF, an Army camp and called in there and said: ‘Can you help me?’. They said: ‘Yeah.’ Gave me a new battery and then a bit further on the throttle control spring on the engine broke and we couldn’t control it so and I didn’t know what to do and we came to a very nice old lady’s shop, and I said: ‘Stop.’ And I had a flash of inspiration and I went in the lady’s shop and I said: ‘I want some elastic that wide please, so she said there, and I said ‘It’s for my car.’ And we went out and wound it round and round and round these two stops for the throttle spring and we drove 200 miles on a piece of elastic. [chuckle] Anyways, that was in Sylt, then what -
PH: Bill, what, why don’t you tell the story about Old Sarum [?] when you went up with your boss and nearly clocked the cathedral?
WB: Oh yes, that was at Old Sarum. I went up flying with the boss in an open-seater aircraft and it was foggy and it was about 400 feet and the boss said: ‘I’ll come down to 400 feet and we’ll see if we can follow the railway back down to the town’. And we were down there in the fog and I looked and I was I was ‘Look! Look!’ and we were heading straight for the cathedral. The spire was sticking out through the fog and we were going straight for it, and we managed, and somehow we missed it. That was, that was that one. And then another time, we were flying and it, it you were in the back cockpit, you had a harness with a chain going down to the floor to hold you in, and a cable rather, and we were going along and we hit an air pocket and the plane went down and I was out! and the chain tightened and I went ‘Bomp’ and pulled me back down again. [chuckle] So that was two I’d missed.
AH: Could you, could you tell me a bit more about when you were in Iraq?
WB: Iraq?
PH : You were twenty-one, weren’t you?
WB: Yeah, yeah somewhere around there, yes, it was hot there. It was a hundred and, it got to an hundred and thirty in the summer, really hot. And when these, [unclear] and when they were bombing and shelling us, it went on day-and-night for five nights and you slept under your bed and you ‘whee’ [emphasis], you hear the head of shells going over and that one’s going for the bomb dump, and ‘whee’ and anyway we did it for five days and they packed up, and then we went on normal and we heard a different noise. And we said: ‘That’s something different’, and we looked up and there’s three German bombers coming down. And we said: ‘Where the heck have did they come from?’ And the Germans had come into Mosul, it was about a couple of hundred miles up and they came down bombing us. They came at eight in the morning, and four in the afternoon, regular as clockwork, the Germans bombing and, machine guns, anyway. We shot one or two down and in the end they, they packed up, then we followed them back to Mosul and then got them when they landed, with, with our the Hurricanes. We, we got them on the floor and they packed up, so that was peace. And, anyway decided come home. And –
PH: You actually popped a few shots with your gun didn’t you?
WB: Yes. There was a man diving at me with his plane and I managed to get me Lewis loose gun on him, but he didn’t hit me and I didn’t hit him. And we came home and [sup of tea] [loud thump] we came down, we were in Bombay for a couple of weeks waiting for a ship and then we came over to Mombasa and then we came round to Durban, and we had a couple of, eight, weeks in Durban living out in tents on the runway and then we got down to Cape Town and I managed to get ashore and go up Table Mountain. And you go halfway up in the bus to the land and then you got a cable railway for a mile [shudder]. And we got up there, and had a walk round, that was very good. And coming home, we got up to Lagos and I’m afraid I went down with Malaria, and I was in the ships hospital for about a couple of weeks with very, very bad malaria. Didn’t do me any good. And eventually we got home.
PH: Weren’t they going to chuck you overboard?
WB: Well, yes. They, I, I, I met the orderly who dealt with me sometime, I met him in Boston. And he said: ‘When you came in’, he said, ‘you were pale blue and we didn’t think you’d last the night out. So we said we’d chalk you up for over the side in the morning.’ But, anyway they treated me with MNB243 tablets, you know, anti-malaria and no doubt, they brought me round when I was still having quinine six months later to get straightened up with it. Oh.
[restart of recording]
WB: Yeah we’re in Egypt 1937 at Abusir about sixty miles away from Cairo up near the Suez Canal and we had sand yachts there and we used to have races out in the desert. And in ’37 they decided to see if they could get to Cairo. And there were seven yachts and twelve men and a dog and we set off from Abusir and we went across the desert for five days heading for Heliopolis, just outside Cairo, and we got there alright and the, the station commander landed one day, he said: ‘Where are you on the map?’ They said: ‘We don’t have a map, Sir.’ He said: ‘How do know where you are?’ And the leader amongst us, he said: ‘Well, over there,’ he said ‘you can see the Suez hills.’ ‘Yes I can see them.’ he said ‘Towards the end there’s gap.’ And he said: ‘Yes.’ ‘We’re heading for that gap in the Suez Hills.’ And we hit the gap and went down, down to Cairo. Had five nice days in Cairo, out to the Pyramids and all the rest of it. And we came back another way and got back in four days, and it was quite an exciting trip, and we’re were the only people who’ve ever done it. And we had a sailing boat down on the - we were twelve miles away from the bit of lakes on the Suez Canal. We had a sailing boat there and the air was quite nice, you go sailing.
PH: What about when the CO spotted you first?
WB: Eh?
PH: When the CO spotted you arriving over the desert?
WB: Well he came down, landed, he came down more or less, you know two or three times -
PH: But, but he didn’t believe that he could see sails, could he?
WB: Oh yes, we, one night we were camped and we’d seen a plane going on down the bombing raids during the day, and anyway we bedded down for the night and we saw lots of flares going up in the distance. And some of our blokes they walked over to see these flares and there was an army camp there, just based. And they took the CO, and said: ‘What, what are you lot doing?’ And they said: ‘Well we’re the sand yachts. [unclear] He said: ‘Sand yachts! All day long I’ve seen bloody sails, and I said I knew there was no sea over there.’ And they said: ‘What, what’s all these flares?’ I said: ‘There time expired pyrotechnics, I think we’re just getting rid of them.’ So, anyway he wasn’t very pleased. [chuckle] But then anyway. He said: ‘I and been seeing all these sails and I knew full well there was no sea over there.‘ [chuckle] Oh, well anyway, we had a nice time in Cairo. Quite nice town. Err, what else? [sigh]
AH : What was is like coming back to Britain?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like coming back to Britain?
WB : Coming back home?
AH : Yeah.
WB : Cold. [laugh] Yeah. We came, we came round Durban and Cape Town, and we just came out of Cape Town and we had, there was two, two troop ships and we had a couple of naval battles with us, and a cruiser and a couple of destroyers, and we were coming out somewhere and they said [?] ‘All hands on deck, put your lifebelts. Lifebelts on.’ So we all got on deck, and one of the destroyers it came near, and there must have been a German submarine down below and he threw depths charges up. And [intake of breath] their ship came up out of the water and we thought it’s never going down. 22,000 tonnes of ship, and we thought it was never going to a stop. But anyway, the sub didn’t get us, whether we got him or not; we, we got on home [sigh]. And we came in round the Atlantic, we c. Came into Liverpool. The night we lay there [inaudible] ladies[?], we were up on a transit camp at West Kirby, outside Liverpool and we were there and they came and bombed Liverpool. [chuckle] Oh dear. [sigh] And then when we were down at Kirkby there; a plane it took off and an engine failed, so it decided to come back. So he came back and he turned round and he came back and he, he force landed. He crash landed. And he was sitting there and he was rocking on a 4,000lb bomb. [chuckle] And we took it in turns to go in, they got the crew out, there was one man in the bomb bay. He was still, his head had gone through a partition. And we took it in turns to cut through to get him out. And we were there, and there, there were a couple of WAAFs who worked for me in the plump bay and they were outside, hugging each other. ‘Oh, Mr Bullock’s in there.’ And I said: ‘Well, if the bomb had gone off you wouldn’t have stood much chance would ya?’ [chuckle] Anyway, it didn’t go off. We got them out. [deep sigh]
AH: And what was your job role at Kirk-?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What, what did you do as what [sorry]
PH : What was your job at East Kirkby?
WB : I was, I was what they call the Technical Adjutant. I did all the paperwork and books and things and returns and all sorts of stuff, that kept me busy for a year.
PH : Did you have to clear the beds in the mornings after the raids?
WB : Pardon?
PH: Did you have to clear the personal possessions away?
WB : Oh yeah. Oh well, when the, yeah when the if any got missing on raids, yeah you had to go round and collect the kit, and I, I collected the kits of, I think, of 120 people while I was there. And we just collected it all up, put in a bag and took it to what they called ‘The Committee of Adjustment’ who sorted everything out, and actually down in East Kirkby now there’s a memorial and there’s a very nice poem, very nice poem at East Kirkby to that we lost a thousand men in three years. Yeah, that was pretty good. A thousand men in three years. [sigh]
PH : What about the plane that came in upside down?
WB : Oh yes. We, we heard a terrific roar and when we got out, there was a plane up there and, and it was coming down and one engine was on fire, and it was heading down and eventually crashed and blew up, and there was one man, they got him out, they took him away on a stretcher and he [unclear] [chuckle] And anyway we said: ‘Well what about this engine on fire?’ They said: ‘No, it wasn’t that engine, the other one.’ They said ‘when you saw him it, it was upside down.’ And he went in, oh, dear oh dear, six, six of them killed. [sigh] Yeah. I got a job there, I had to keep, keep a good supply of engines and propellers, and the engines, they had to, Rolls Royce, Glasgow they dealt with them, and, if, you know, I had a lorry load and a rear Corporal in Boston called Tom caught on, and I said: ‘Tommy, I’ve got a load for Glasgow.’ He said: ‘Right, send your lorry.’ And he sent me lorry and trailer to deliver with a load of all these engines. And up and off they went to Glasgow. And came back with another load. But the, the more powerful Rolls Royce engines, the Merlins they went to Derby, Nightingale Road, Derby. So, so we sent them there, and oh – yeah, err. Now what else?
PH : What about the Tirpitz?
WB : The Tirpitz? Oh well, erm. Yes, the erm, this [stutter] the group engineer he came to me at East Kirkby and there were the more powerful Merlins, 34s. He said: ‘I want all your 34s with the broad propellers in sets. He says ; ‘It’s nothing to do with you what I want them for,’ but he said: ‘Get me in sets of four and when you get a set let me know.’ So, so I’m getting them all, got all me, changed all the, the little engines, but took the big ones out. Got them all rolled up and anyway, he came and he took them, and they went to 9 Squadron at Bardney, and it was for bombing the Tirpitz. Yeah, so at least we had a hand in that. [sigh] Oh yes, when this, when this one crashed and landed and a big piece of the airplane, it went through the guardroom, and there was a man, a man in the guardroom locked up on punishment. And this piece of metal, huge leg that went across and through the wall in the Nissan hut, over a bed and out the other side. And the following morning the padre he was around, he saw it, he said: ‘No matter where the evil doeth, the wrath of the Lord shall seek him out.’ [long chuckle] Oh dear, oh well at, yeah, Metheringham, we had what they called FIDO and it was pipes down each side of the runway, all the way down, with little holes in and when it was really foggy, they’d fiddle with the flares all down each side of the runway, and we had it once and it burnt big holes in the fog. And they landed, and an American landed but he had to come for some, he came in, and in a a fighter plane, and he went down and he slewed off the runway, he hit all my FIDO pipes, went back on again, and when he got to Traffic Control, he said: ‘It’s a mighty good thing you got there for keeping people on the runway. [chuckle] Yeah, Gibson, Guy Gibson, he was, when he’d done his job he came to us at East Kirkby for a rest. And he wasn’t a nice man. Very unpopular man. ‘Don’t call me Guy. Call me Dam Buster.’ But his dam, his bomb didn’t hit the dam, it missed it. Oh, he wasn’t a very nice man at all. And in the end, he accidently got shot down by one of our own bombers. Yeah, they mistook him for a German and they shot him down.
PH : Didn’t, didn’t some Canadian guy clock him one?
WB : Yeah, yeah he was getting a bit too familiar with, when they went to Canada, he was getting a bit too familiar with some blokes wife. A great big Dutch man, so he just went up and he dropped him. ‘THUNK!’ He said: ‘Leave my wife alone.’ [chuckle] He wasn’t a popular man at all. [long sup of tea.]
AH : And how did you feel about where -? How was morale?
WB : [still supping on tea] About what?
AH : How was morale when you were at East Kirkby?
WB : Oh all right. Yeah I did, I did me year on paperwork [laugh].
PH : Did, didn’t you, get to advise somebody at the Battle of Britain Flight about how to get a propeller prop off?
WB : You what?
PH : You advised somebody at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight how to get the propeller off because they were struggling to get the nuts off.
WB – Don’t get that –
PH : You got two awards for doing inventions, didn’t you?
WB : Oh, oh the thing the thing for taking propellers apart. Yeah [sniff sigh] Yes, when, yes that’s when I was at Waddington, and the big four bladed propellers on the, now then, they were Lincolns, not Lanc- Lincolns. You get the pulling them apart, and you shovel a big ring in and you had a big lever and pulled it, pulled it, pulled it. And, oh, it took men all day trying to get these damn things out and I said: ‘No.’ So I invented the little, a little gadget, a little tube about that long with a big nut and bolt in it and I put it in between the two blades and tightened it up, pushed them out two at a time. No bother. And I got a £15 reward from Bomber Command for inventing it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I did something else, I did somewhere else. Yeah, at, you took the cylinders off jet engines and you put them in some horrible acid stuff and soaked them to get the carbon off, and you had to heat it with big immersion heaters, and it was in this wooden box, and it took all day to heat it, and it didn’t get anywhere, so I thought, no. So, when, when new batteries came for the aeroplanes, they were in big polystyrene packs, and I collected all these sheets of polystyrene about a foot wide and about three feet long and glued them all around this container, and it heated it up quickly, and kept it warm. No both rugger, and the Air Ministry gave me £5 for thinking of it, for saving electricity. [chuckle] Yeah. - Oh, a thousand bomber raid, well I didn’t get mixed up with any of them. The first one, we were at Wigsley, we sent our planes to Swinderby, we operated there, a thousand bombers –
PH : How did it actually work?
WB : Eh?
PH : How did it actually work? How did you get a thousand bombers up at the same time?
WB : Well, eh, I they were all over the place, weren’t on they? Just came up. [deep sniff and sigh]
PH : When you were at school you used a tray, sand tray.
WB : Yeah, yeah when we were in the infants school. We had a little tray with sand, you wrote in it with our fingers and they did the same in Mereman [?] Fen. I was talking to a man once said: ‘We had these little trays with sand now, you do it with your fingers.’ And then eventually you got slate and you had a piece of rag pinned to your jersey to rub the slate out [laughter and sigh]. The things we did.
AH : Can you tell me more about Coningsby?
WB : Pardon?
AH : When you were at Coningsby.
WB : Well, that was in ’45. Yeah, I had 40 Lancasters to look after. Make sure they were there at the right time, otherwise if you didn’t, you’re chucked you out. Anyway, I always got them there right. No bother.
PH : You were part of Pathfinders, weren’t they?
WB : Eh?
PH : Were they Pathfinder Squadrons?
WB : Pathfinder, yeah. The ones who went in early and dropped flares for the others to bomb. They had them at Coningsby, yeah. And I had to keep 40 of them ready, all the time. No bother.
PH : How did you manage to do it in the winter?
WB : Well, you just did. Mostly they didn’t give you a lot of trouble. You didn’t get a lot of trouble. But in the winter, it if it, if it was bad out, you sprayed the wings with the de-icing stuff, to get [unclear], to get the ice off, and the propellers. You had to get the ice off before they could go or otherwise it was they were, you know, heavy and all the rest of it. Had to get this ice going. [sigh] Yeah. [long pause]
AH : What was it like being in Germany?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like being in Germany after they’ve been bombed? And then you...
WB : It was all right in Germany, they, they weren’t hostile at all. They were just mixed up, ordinary people. It wasn’t their fault we bombed them and they bombed us. But Hamburg, was a bit of a mess. Nice town Hamburg. Yeah. Yeah, we had a nice holiday in Hamburg. We went down to, oh, Ruhpolding, had a nice holiday there. And then we went down, we went down as far as Venice once on holiday. It was very good. We went down on, went down in the bus to, right in the corner of Germany and then we got a bus down to Venice. Four, four, five days in Venice. And we were way up in the mountains, and over, about a mile away there were two or three big American lorries. They were letting big black balloons up, and they were going up and over. And the bus driver stopped and everybody was looking, and I said: ‘I know [emphasis], I know what they are.’ I used to take The Reader’s Digest and there’d been an article in there about this lot, and when the wind blew in a certain direction over from Germany to Czechoslovakia, they used to let these big black balloons up full of leaflets and they would drift over to Czechoslovakia and drop all the leaflets down. So I told, there’s a man there who spoke English and I said: ‘I know what they are.’ And I told him. ‘Oh’ And they said: ‘Oh, the Englishman, he knows.’ [chuckle] They was alright. We had a nice holiday in Venice. You did, didn’t you?
PH: Yes. What was your nickname in the RAF? Was it Abdul?
WB : Abdul. Yeah, they called me Abdul. ‘Cos when we, I was always out in the sun. I was the colour of that table. And, when we got to, we went from Egypt, they moved us to Iraq, and got there, and of course, they all called me Abdul. And we had a, one of the locals, he looked after the bungalow, kept things clean, made the bed and all the rest of it. He said to me one day, I wonder. He says: ‘Why you in Royal Egypt? You Egyptian?’ I said: ‘I’m not a bloody Egyptian. I’m an Englishman.’ He said: ‘You black, why they call you Abdul!’ [loud cough]. And I never convinced him I was Englishman. Never. Oh dear, dear, dear. Oh, we had fun. Better out now [unclear].
PH : Did you have much entertainment off the base, at the village halls?
WB : No. [door bell and distant voices.] Father he joined the army as a bugler boy, and in the war he was called up to Air Ministry, and they said: ‘We want to put you in charge of, of a training squadron, you know a transport, a training squadron, and we’ll up you to squadron leader.’ And the man who was dealing with, he said: ‘You were my bugler boy when you joined the Army, weren’t ya?’ [laughter] Anyway, dad, he did very well as squadron leader. Yeah, he worked hard. [sigh] Did 41 years all together in the army, RFC and Army and Air Force. He was number 150 in the RFC. Very senior. Still not the first day and his brother was number 700, he joined up the next day. [chuckle] My brother did 22 years, my sister did four and a half in the Army and then she, she was civil servant with the, with the Navy in the Admiralty. And she, she was the personal private secretary to the Director Technical Polaris. Very, very important job and but if any of her admirals where going anywhere, she had to arrange all the transport, the right flags and, this, that and the other. And, and one of them one day said: ‘We’ve never seen you at one of our launches. You know when they launch one of the Polaris.’ She said: ‘I’ve never been invited.’ He said: ‘You will come to the next one.’ So the next launching, they laid a staff car on for Betty, picked her up, took her to the station, first class travel up to Barrow, entertained her, put her in a hotel, staff car took her out to the launching, came back, and when, when she left they, they gave her a carriage clock, and on the side of it was something-or-other : To Miss Betty Bullock [coughing] Aminu Ensis[?] to make the war work to seven admirals, and there were all these admirals names, and that was, that was good. She did a very good job with these admirals. Seven. Twenty-one years she was an admiral’s secretary. They took her out to a nice posh dinner and saw her off well. So we did our share. I did 34 years. My brother did 22 years. My dad did 41. And my sister did, oh heavens only knows how many. [sigh] Yeah.
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB :` Oh, he was in the Flying Corps. Yeah, he was an Engineer Officer with the Flying Corps – Number 1 5 0. They did all sorts of things.
PH : What sort of planes would he be working on?
WB : [growls] Well, I know De Havilland something or other. Bristol fighters, Sopwith Camels and all sorts of thing. There was one there that had a rotary engine and instead of the engine being still and everything going round, the crankshaft was bolted and the engine went round it. No, no rotary. The engine went round [stutters]. You wouldn’t imagine it, would you? Anyway it did.
PH : What year did you join the RAF?
WB : I joined up in ’32 and I came out in ’66. Yeah. I went everywhere from AC1 to flight lieutenant and back again. [Long sniff] Oh, I wasn’t all that happy with being a flight lieutenant, I don’t know, I, anyway I ditched my commission and I went back and I was a warrant officer for about 13 years, and I was much happier as a warrant officer. You didn’t have big mess bills and expenses at all. You, you were well off. [coughing] No, I usually had jobs in charge of workshops and it was a real, you know, nice job. Workshop jobs. Where the work was. [coughing and long pause].
AH : What did you do after the war? After you left the RAF, sorry?
WB : I came out the year I went down to Horncastle Rural District Council and the rating department, collected money and all this that and other. And then did that for about eight years. And then when this reorganising took place, I got moved to East Lindsey District Council, and oh, oh I don’t know I did paperwork all the time. Yeah.
PH : It wasn’t particularly a cosy job at times though. You got followed, didn’t you, one time –
WB : Eh?
PH : You got followed because you got money in the car. Didn’t –
WB : Oh. no, I didn’t get stopped.
PH : No, but didn’t somebody follow you all day.
WB : Well, that were coming back from Wragby. Somebody once said to me: ‘I used to collect rent at Wragby and you got several hundred pound in your bag.’ And somebody once said to me. No, no it was me wife, she was in the dentist was down the dentist in the town there, and they were talking this and said: ‘You know when that rent collector goes over the level crossing at 4 o’clock’, they said, ‘He’s got an awful lot of money in that bag.’ And Mary told me, she said: ‘Oh.’ Anyway, the next time I came out when I went over the level crossing, and there was a car, there was a van there. I thought: Oh. So I put my foot down and came back about 70 mile per hour and I told the boss and he said: ‘Right, so from then on, someone was seen to see me in the afternoon and take a big bag off me with most of the money. So they didn’t, I didn’t have all that money to people to pinch off me, but I wasn’t very happy with people following me. ‘Cos they said: ‘If every you’re attacked, just let the money go, don’t argue.’ I said: ‘No, not if I been collecting it, bugger it. I’m not let them have it.’ [chuckles] So, anyway, we didn’t have any more bother. But it makes you wonder, don’t it?
[long pause]
PH : You seen a lot of changes in aircraft design, haven’t you?
WB: Yeah [sniff] yeah. The one, the one before the Lancaster was a Manchester. It had two, two big engines, 3,000 horsepower engines. Two. There were, the, the Merlins two like that and the [unclear] Vulcan and it had [stuttering] X’s. Vulture, anyway they were the two big cross engines and it only had a single tail rudder. The old Manchester it was useless as an aeroplane. It was slow and it was cumbersome. It didn’t carry much big load. Anyway, they soon turned it into a Lancaster, and it was a marvellous aeroplane. Marvellous aeroplane. They made 700, 7,000 odd in the war. Yeah, it was the best plane that came out of the war. [inaudible]
PH : What’s the one after the Lancaster?
WB : Lincoln. A bit, bit, bit bigger. Four bladed props against the Lancasters three. Yeah, I think it had bigger, didn’t have a Griffin engine, I think the Lincoln. A bigger engine. And it was a big aeroplane. It was East, erh, Waddington. [pause] Yes [long pause]
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Pardon?
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Do what?
PH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Well I don’t think so, I can’t think of much. No, no not much to do with the RAF. There are things not to do.
AH : How do you feel about the way Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Does she what?
PH : How do you feel that Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Well...
PH : ... with Bomber Harris.
WB : Bomber Harris, they didn’t treat him well. They - everybody got a knighthood, but not, not Bomber. They, they, they ignored him. They didn’t treat him right. He did a good job, Bomber Harris. They said he was brutal, but he only did his job. He just said: ‘If you can’t get the factories, get the people that who work in them.’ Well, fair enough, but you can’t blame him for that. He got these bombers going. No, he wasn’t treated well, Bomber Harris – ha [long sigh] There’s a man just died, Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And he was down at East Kirkby, and John Chatterton, he had to test pilots, and he said: ‘I remember this bloke Michael Beetham coming through, and he was too good, he said he had, had to rate him above average, cos he’s way above average.’ And he finished up Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And I met him, nice man, met him down at East Kirkby. Yeah. And there were two ex-apprentices, got cadetship and went to Cranwell. They both finished up as Air Marshalls. Yeah. Some did well, very well.
PH : What, what were you days at Houlton like?
WB : Eh?
PH : What were your days at Houlton like?
WB : All right.
PH : What were you know as?
WB : Oh, Trenchard Sprouts [chuckle] Yeah. Oh, it was a good life, yeah, yeah it was a good life. You worked hard, but they trained you well. But they always said: ‘If a bloke was ever trained at Houlton, he could walk straight into a job at Rolls Royce. That was that Houlton training, you can go straight to Rolls Royce as a workman. [sniff and sigh] Yeah. Three years. Jolly good.
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Eh?
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Well, he was a General in the First War and then he, he started the, more-or-less, started the Air Force, as such, Flying Corps. General Lieutenant, General Sir whatever his name Trenchard, and he started the apprentice scheme, the apprentice’s scheme; hence the name Trenchard Sprouts. He was a good man, Trenchard. Not a big man. Yes he started the RAF. [loud crash and bang] Ohi.
AH : Well, thank you very much.
WB : Pardon?
AH : Thank you.
PH : Yeah, well call that -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with William Bullock
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anna Hoyles
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-30
Format
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00:57:49 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABullockWEJ151030, PBullockWEJ1601
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
William Bullock was born in Marshfield in Gloucestershire in September 1916 and joined the Royal Air Force as an apprentice in 1932. He was posted to Egypt for training - after serving in the Middle East he joined Bomber Command as an engineer. After serving at RAF East Kirkby, William moved to 106 Squadron at RAF Metheringham before joining Pathfinders at RAF Conningsby, looking after and maintaining 40 Lancasters. William was in charge of moving aircraft around from location to location and tells about his role as a technical adjutant and supplying Merlin engines for the attack on the Tirpitz. He also describes his technical innovations and of his meeting with Guy Gibson. William tells about his post war family and service life, with details on his posting in Sylt, Germany where he saw the extent of bombing damage. He also elaborates on Hugh Trenchard, Michael Beetham, and Arthur Harris.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Sylt
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
North Africa
Iraq
Iraq--Mosul
106 Squadron
bombing
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Metheringham
Tirpitz
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/486/8370/ABurdinJR170206.1.mp3
110add58ae6a4b4edfbbb17f5230f227
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Burdin, James
James Roy Burdin
J R Burdin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Burdin, JR
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with James Roy Burdin (b. 1920, 1109124 Royal Air Force) and his service and release book. He worked as a radar technician.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Monday the 6th of February 2017 and I’m in Longton near Preston with James Roy Burdin and we’re going to talk about his work in the RAF in the war largely to do with radar. What is your earliest recollection of life Roy?
JRB: Living on our small holding in Longton and helping my dad from a very early age with his, with his work on the small holding.
[pause]
CB: And where did you go to school?
JRB: I started school at five I think I would be. I’d be five when I went to Longton, Longton Primary School. That’s not a very satisfactory [question?] is it? You know, the local village school. Longton Primary School and I was there until I was, I went in for the scholarship examination as we called it then. It was before the eleven plus day and it was virtually the entry to grammar school. Only the ones that the teachers at school thought had a chance were put in for the exam because we had to go to Preston to sit the examination and I passed and was awarded a place at Hutton Grammar School and I studied there for the school, for the, what did they call it in those days? It wasn’t the GCE was it? The equivalent of today’s GCE anyway and I I passed that and got my certificate for that but there was no question in those days, very few people went on to further education after that. For one thing I knew that there wasn’t money in the family to support me to go on to university or anything of that sort even if I’d been eligible for it so I I left school with that qualification and it was at the time of the big Depression in the ‘30s and jobs were very difficult to get but eventually I went to work for a small business in Preston. Radio repair and sales. Just a one man business [at that point?] but that didn’t last very long because the main trouble was that it was I had to use a bus to get into Preston. Although I’d only been with this situation for a short time the proprietor usually had calls to make on his way down to work from his home in Longridge and I was left to open up the shop although very inexperienced at the time and very often he’d be out either delivering or collecting radio sets for repair until quite late at night and the shop hours were very long anyway so my dad thought that I was, shall we say, I don’t know how to put it really. Anyway, my dad thought that I would be better off coming and helping on the, on the small holding so I went to the agricultural, or horticultural rather, training station at Hutton and took their course which was only a short course and I continued working on the holding. We had greenhouses and market garden mostly and orchards and it was quite a pleasant life but not exactly a pot of gold, you know but I was doing that until, until the war started and eventually of course as I said before, I think, I joined, I volunteered for the RAF.
CB: Why did you choose the RAF rather than one of the other forces?
JRB: Well, some of my ex schoolmates discussed it all and we thought that the RAF would be a good unit to, to get into. We thought the conditions were better for one thing and you wouldn’t get involved in the dreadful trench warfare of the previous, previous war which everybody expected might recur again and so it was actually at the time of Dunkirk that I realised, I seemed to have rather a blank in a way about the international situations and that sort of thing and I wasn’t very, very quick to realise the danger that Germany was presenting to the, to the world and when the near disaster occurred at Dunkirk and the Germans were more or less on our frontier I decided it was time to, to join up so that’s when I volunteered for the RAF. When I first went for my interviews for the RAF they said, ‘Well there will be a, a gap. We won’t take you right away. We’ll call you at a bit later date.’ So in the meantime the, what became known as the Home Guard but started off as the Local Defence Volunteers was formed and I joined the local group and we did a bit of rifle practice and general infantry training really and we had a patrol on Longton Marshes. We did a night patrol down there and from there we could see the, the German bombing of Liverpool but of course we were a little country district so we didn’t attract any of the, of the bombs and I I was with that until the RAF called me up and then -
CB: When did they do that?
JRB: I was posted to Blackpool and billeted in one of the boarding houses there. We, we were kitted out and given basic training, foot drill and all that sort of thing on the promenades at Blackpool and the Winter Gardens became a Morse school. It was all fitted out with tables with Morse keys and that was where a lot of the air crew in the RAF got their Morse training. As I mentioned to you my speed didn’t build up satisfactorily on Morse. I could, I could learn the code easy enough but I couldn’t get, I wasn’t confident enough to get any speed up and so they said, well there’s a new branch opening up and since you’ve had experience of radio repair work and actually radio had always been my hobby right from school days so they said, I think they said, ‘Do you know what a supersonic hetrodyne is?’ So I had to tell them that which a lot of people didn’t know and that got me on to the, it was, it was highly secret at the time, nobody would mention the word RDF which was our original name for the, what became known as Radar. It wasn’t until the Americans came in that they started calling it Radar but to us it was RDF which was Radio Detection Finding. So there was some delay in starting the course that I was destined to go on and in the meantime I was sent over to a place called Bircham Newton which was a Coastal Command station on the Norfolk coast and I spent some months there waiting for my course to be organised and there I was just doing ordinary general duties. You know just, it was a sort of a standby position but I saw quite a bit of the, the Coastal Command life and I was there when the, what do you call it? I’m not very good at this I’m afraid. I was there when the Fleet Air Arm, I think they were Gladiators. Would they be Gladiators?
CB: Yeah.
JRB: Or would they be -?
CB: Yeah. No. They’d be Swordfish.
JRB: Swordfish probably. The old, the old biplane.
CB: Swordfish.
JRB: I was there when they dropped in at our station to refuel and have a break and a meal before taking off to bomb the German battleships.
CB: Oh Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.
JRB: Yeah. And of course most of them were lost anyway on that raid. So I was there at that time. And then I was sent to London to join a course at Battersea Polytechnic on general radio principles and that type of thing and at the time we were billeted in premises that the RAF had taken over next door to the American Embassy in Grosvenor Square so we had the whole place taken over and converted into RAF billets really. We were taken each day by coach to Battersea to do the course at what later became London University or part of London University. The end of that course I was posted to Yatesbury on Salisbury Plain and that was the first glimpse we got of radar equipment or RDF equipment. They had obviously, they’d got the school all set up there and they’d got the equipment, the transmitters, receivers and ancillary equipment for a radar station and we studied there for several months and on, on passing out there it was practically Christmas time. This would be in ‘41 wouldn’t it?
CB: Ahum.
JRB: So we were all posted to our various units and my friend and I got postings to St Bride’s in the Isle of Man. So we duly arrived at Liverpool expecting to get a sailing across to the Isle of Man but they said, ‘Oh, no more boats sailing until after Christmas. You’d better have Christmas leave.’ So we weren’t displeased about that and went off home. He to Manchester where his home was and I to Longton. And on reporting back again, beginning of January they said, ‘You’re not going to the Isle of Man anymore. You’re going down to a place called Ruislip near London.’ So we went down to Ruislip and reported there to find that it was a small unit that was building up convoys into radar stations. The, the equipment, the transmitters and receivers and other equipment were made by commercial firms obviously such as Metro Vickers, they made transmitters and Cossors and other people made receivers and so on but I think the reason they were scattered about in that way was because they didn’t want the people to know what it all, put together, what it all became when it was assembled together. Anyway, we, that was our job. To, to set up mobile radars ready for going overseas mostly. I seemed to gravitate to, to being on the transmitters which were a very massive piece of equipment made by Metro Vickers of Manchester and they were about two tonnes a piece. Well we had to manhandle those into, into vans which were on the old Crossley vehicles of which the RAF had a lot. Big hefty thumping old, old type vehicles and they, they had bodies specially made at Park Royal body builders and so on at, at London. So we had to receive these by road from the manufacturers and manhandle them with crowbars and and whatever equipment we needed to get them in to place in these vehicles. Then we had to tune them up to the required frequency and check their output and all the functions and alongside us the receivers were being treated in a similar manner. And a convoy would consist of a transmitter vehicle, receiver vehicle, a trailer for the antennae and the wooden towers which they used for the transmitters, for the signal for the aerials for the transmitters so altogether there would be oh and there would be a diesel generator on a, on a separate trailer and all that together would form a radar station and after, after us doing all the tests and cabling all the connections and everything they would be sent off to wherever the army or the RAF wanted them. So I worked on that for quite a while. Do you want me to carry on in this –?
CB: Please do.
JRB: Yes.
CB: What was the crew, the number of people who would be on this crew for the convoy? How many people?
JRB: We never saw the full, we never saw it go out as a full unit. I don’t know how -
CB: Oh so you -
JRB: There would probably be, well you see with radar it would have to work pretty well twenty four hours a day so they’d have enough people to, to form crews to cover the twenty four hours and -
CB: So these were, you were able to move them around but what, what were they used for? Was it for training other people or were they used inland because the chain radar didn’t read inland?
JRB: Oh this, no this was, the chain radar was already in place.
CB: Yes.
JRB: Now the chain radar had heavier equipment still and the transmitters for that were pretty well built on sight, you know. They weren’t moveable really but that was operating because there had already been the Battle of Britain and the chain stations were very active during that time.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: But these were mobile convoys which would go overseas and wherever the theatre of war needed them they’d, they’d go but that didn’t, that didn’t tie up directly with the chain stations because as I say they were a very, a fixed, absolutely fixed installation.
CB: Yeah. And only -
JRB: They used, they used three hundred and sixty foot transmitter towers, steel towers and they used two hundred and forty foot receiver towers. You know, the chain system had fixed antennae which, looking back on it, it seems quite a primitive type of equipment to us but in its day it was the front of technology and we all thought we were very big stuff to be associated with it. But the purpose of the chain was to cover mostly the south and east coast although there were stations further, further afield along the coast. Every so many miles you would have a chain station and they all had to work together.
CB: So those were large and static. You’re using mobile but I thought, what I want -
JRB: These were, these were very static stations.
CB: Yes.
JRB: And of course the chain with these aerials and the frequency they worked on only looked one way.
CB: Yeah. Outwards.
JRB: The transmitter aerials or antennae were a fairly widespread beam. Not the, not the highly directed beam that we associated with higher frequency stations but the, the frequency they were working on was what we would consider very low today but obviously aerials of that sort couldn’t be swivelled around on a gantry. They had to be fixed. The receiver aerials likewise on separate towers were what I refer to as cross dipoles. That means to say that one aerial is north south and the other is east west and by using an instrument known as a Goniometer the operator on the receiver could swivel this knob that was a Goniometer which was graduated in degrees of the compass and could differentiate the direction from which the echo was coming. The whole system of radar of course as you are probably well aware is that you transmit a pulse and you measure the time it takes for that pulse to get back reflected from an aircraft or whatever, it might be a flock of seagulls and when you measure that, that time interval of the return trace you know since electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light you know what the distance is so that’s how we were able to forecast the approach of bombers and the operators were largely recruited from the WAAFs and they became very adept at, at this work. From experience they could tell pretty well how many aircraft were involved. If it was a raid with say fifty aircraft in it they would be able to tell the controllers pretty well the size of the numbers involved in the raid which was very useful of course. So that was operational all during the Battle of Britain time and continued on right through the war actually but other forms of radar came along later on. Higher frequencies as you know with the, with the rotatable antennae. The first one I knew of that type was what we called CHL. That was Chain Low. CHL, Chain Low, because the original chain stations didn’t see the aircraft if it was quite low down so they wanted this other. Now that was on a higher frequency and it could detect aircraft at lower levels and also it used what we call a PPI which was a Planned Position Indicator tube which was a round tube. The original chain station drew a straight trace across the Cathode Ray tube and aircraft caused a downward deflection of that trace so it was like a V would form on the trace. That meant it was picking up a return signal.
CB: On the screen you mean?
JRB: Yeah, on the, on the -
CB: Cathode Ray tube.
JRB: Cathode Ray tube screen. Now the PPI, the aerials rotated and you had the display more like a map. It looked, as it swept around the, the location of your station was the centre point of the, of the tube and the trace would turn about it actually, axially so that you could get the direction and the distance of the incoming echo which was a big improvement really. I don’t think anybody would think of a radar receiver without that facility nowadays because now that we’re on much higher frequencies that is a generally accepted way of displaying it. So back to 4 MU at Ruislip where we were setting up the, the stations which were working on the same principal as the, as the chain station. They had fixed aerials and had the same drawbacks you might say as the, as the chain as the big chain stations but they were supposedly mobile but they were rather clumsy awkward things to, to consider as mobile. Then a lighter equipment called, what did you call them? [pause]. Anyway, it was a sort of a much more mobile and much more, much lighter equipment than the, than the forerunners and they started to arrive at Ruislip for us to set up and so there was a separate flight formed. B flight, which I was put into and we, we used to fit those into fifteen hundred weight trucks or vans and they had, they had a rotating aerial. They ran off a petrol generator which was adapted from a motorcycle engine I believe and then of course there was a receiver vehicle and the, the aerials were mounted up on the top of the same vehicle.
CB: Was the principal of these the same as chain? You weren’t on to parabolic aerials by then were you?
JRB: We’d got, we’d got a step forward on to higher frequency so that’s why we could use rotating aerials.
CB: Right. Rather than parabolic ones.
JRB: Yeah. And the whole equipment was very much lighter and more mobile than the previous one. Well some of these we were fitting into, into these fifteen hundred weight trucks which were very common in the army and the air force in those days and we also had, to accompany them, a jeep with the radio communications equipment so all told that made up a convoy which again were ready for going out to, well again they were used quite regularly in, in the desert and later on in, on the continent.
CB: So they’re main, mainly going to the desert were they in those days.
JRB: Yes.
CB: To North Africa in other words.
JRB: A lot went to North Africa and of course when we invaded D-Day at they went over to the continent with them and that was what I worked on for most my time there.
CB: So you were loading up these vehicles but who were the crews to look after them? Were you training the crews for the equipment or did they -
JRB: No. The crews -
CB: Come already trained?
JRB: The crews were trained at the radar schools, I expect. At Yatesbury and places like that you see. All we did was just put the convoys together and get them ready for operational use.
CB: And were they air force people who were running these radars or army?
JRB: Mostly air force I would say. Yeah. So that’s what we were doing.
CB: So they went to Algeria after the Torch landings and then on to Tunisia and then they were coming from the other end. That’s what you’re saying are you? In other words coming across the desert from Egypt.
JRB: Yes. So wherever radar was needed to follow up the forces. Of course the, being an RAF scheme it would be directing our aircraft where necessary to attack the enemy.
CB: And detecting the German attacks on the British forces.
JRB: Yes.
CB: Now you mentioned the fact that later version could the CHL gave you, gave the lower altitude detection. Was that only on the Gee, on the CH chain or was it on your mobile ones as well?
JRB: No. On the, on the mobiles as well. That was -
[pause]
JRB: Various other equipments came along and they more or less all passed through our hands at Ruislip. I don’t know. I think we’ll have a break.
CB: Ok. We’ll have a break. Thank you.
[recording paused]
JRB: I don’t think I’m doing, completely ready to switch on.
CB: So in those days -
JRB: [When it left us?]
CB: In those days everything was done by using huge valves, well valves anyway, but big, how big were the valves that would be used in your mobile radars?
JRB: In the mobile, in the lighter one they were very much smaller. I should say about six inches tall. Something like that. Probably a bit less than that. More like four inches.
CB: Each valve.
JRB: But -
CB: Was the different, was there a difference in valve size between the transmitting part of the radar and the receiver?
JRB: Oh definitely.
CB: So how big were the transmitter ones?
JRB: Well the transmitter ones I’m talking about really.
CB: Oh right.
JRB: Because I had more to do with the transmitters than the receivers. For some reason I always seemed to be picked to be a transmitter man.
CB: Right.
JRB: And I quite enjoyed working on the transmitters. Of course they were using very high voltages and a lot of people didn’t want to know about them. They were a bit scared of them.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: We’d a, I remember on one occasion at Ruislip we had a, I don’t know what his rank would be but he was, he was Ministry of Defence and he was not exactly like a signals officer but he was, he was, he classed as an officer and he used to come around more or less overseeing what we were doing and one day I believe that he got a bit too near the high voltage and got himself knocked out but he came around again but the transmitting side you’d be talking about two thousand five hundred volts and that sort of thing you know which were really very lethal if you didn’t know what you were doing but anyway that’s -
CB: So what was the process? You mentioned earlier that the equipment was built by different companies so that it wasn’t obvious what the package was.
JRB: What it was going to be when it was all fitted together.
CB: So it arrived with you from the manufacturer. Then what did you and your colleagues do with all these parts?
JRB: Well as I say we fitted them in to the respective vehicles and did all the cabling and necessary inter-connections and tuned then up to the correct frequencies that was designated and that was about it.
CB: And with the convoys was -
JRB: Any, any, any faults we had to correct and put new parts in if necessary.
CB: And each convoy had a generator.
JRB: Each convoy had a generator.
CB: What, what was that and what was its capacity?
JRB: Well, the, the ones for the original mobiles, that is the ones that were very similar to a slightly smaller version of the, of the chain station the, the generator was a, I think it was a three cylinder Lister diesel engine driving a three phase generator. Quite a hefty piece of equipment and these particular diesels, diesel isn’t very easy to turn over by hand anyway but there were no self-starters on them. The only way to start them was by a crank handle and in cold weather in the winter it was very difficult to, to turn that handle around. In fact we resorted to tying ropes to it and having a couple of men on either end of the rope and push pull to get, to get it over the top dead centre of the starting point but that was that. We had to use whatever equipment was sent to us. I think these, like a lot of the wartime equipment I think it had been adapted from some civilian usage but the ones for the lightweight convoys they were much more manageable. They were a two cylinder horizontally opposed engine. I think they were a firm at Coventry called Climax I believe had those.
CB: Again, diesel was it?
JRB: That was, that was a petrol driven generator. It was adapted from a motorbike engine. Now going on from that eventually we, they were stepping up the frequencies anyway. It was always, always trying to find equipment which would work on a higher frequency which was preferable for radar purposes and also it meant that the aerial size was smaller and we were supposedly, the magnetron was developed which would, which would operate where the old, the old type valves wouldn’t and we could, we could use much higher frequencies with that.
CB: So the magnetron was the key to reducing the size of the kit was it?
JRB: That was the key, the key to improving the radar system altogether really.
CB: What was the key point about magnetron? It’s ability to handle high frequency?
JRB: Well it worked, it worked on an entirely new principal.
CB: Right.
JRB: It would be a bit too to difficult to explain [unclear] but it involved especially designed core which had a number of cavities on a cylindrical pattern and by, its difficult to explain really. By subjecting this to a very strong magnetic field you could get, you could develop an oscillation from it whereas an ordinary valve wouldn’t oscillate above a certain, certain frequency so that was, that was much, a big improvement for it.
CB: So that was the key to the centimetre wavelength.
JRB: Yeah.
CB: Now when you go first, fast forward now to D-Day, how was the equipment handled there? Packaged and handled.
JRB: Well, prior to D-Day we had a programme for water proofing equipment and we had to, we had to make up convoys which were swathed in [blue?] fabric and Bostik cement to keep the sea water from getting on to them but they were still in the same vehicles so they could only go in shallow water virtually. They weren’t on a tracked vehicle of any sort but we all got in a horrible mess with all this Bostik and stuff around and it got on to all our tools and you couldn’t pick a screwdriver up without sticking to it [laughs] but that apparently saved them from being damaged on the landings. I don’t say they went in at the very first landings but they’d have probably followed on very shortly afterwards. So that was, that was -
CB: Now -
JRB: D-Day.
CB: Was, were there two sizes of equipment all the time or was it simply that they were being made smaller as time went on? In other words was there a bigger one for longer range and the shorter one was for -
JRB: No.
CB: More tactical use.
JRB: I don’t think so. I don’t. I think I think the original mobiles were sort of gradually phased out. I think we went more on, on to the lighter weight ones. LW. Lightweight Receivers they were called and there was another occasion when we, when we had a special job. At some stage, I think it was before D-Day the Germans started a night bombing campaign which became known as the little blitz. I don’t know whether you’ve ever heard of that.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JRB: But the little blitz was designed to renew the, the bombing campaign against Britain, against London in particular and the Germans thought that they’d got an advantage because they’d developed a rear, a rear looking radar which they would fit to the tails of the bombers and so they could see our night fighters coming up from behind. ‘Cause as you probably know the object of downing a bomber is to put the rear gunner out of action first and then it’s the bomber’s a sitting duck virtually so with this they thought they could get away with it and come up behind our our aircraft and -
CB: So how did that link in with you?
JRB: Well I was going to say, [pause] just a minute I’ve got something [unclear].
CB: This is interesting because they actually lost -
JRB: Lost something there I think.
CB: They actually lost sixty percent of their aircraft in that mini blitz, so, shot down -
JRB: I’m not talking about our raids on Germany.
CB: No. No. We’re talking about their, their mini blitz.
JRB: Of the German’s raids -
CB: Final fling.
JRB: On this renewed bombing against London. Now -
RB: You were going to say something about Meershum the other day weren’t you? Is that to do with it?
[pause]
CB: Did you get hold of one of these as a result of it being, the aircraft being shot down?
JRB: That was, wait a minute. I’ve got a bit lost I’m afraid.
CB: Ok. We’ll have a break.
RB: I’ll make another cup of –
[recording paused]
CB: So we’re just talking about the mini blitz and the fact that the Germans had got a rear facing radar detector.
JRB: That’s right.
CB: So what came out of that?
JRB: Now then, it turned out that the frequency that their rear, rear radar was working on was quite near to the frequency of our, some of our transmitters so we were asked to retune to get on to the German frequency and to put out a jamming signal which we did by modifying a transmitter so that instead of sending out the usual radar pulses it would send out a continuous noise signal which would block the display of the German rear radar and we always presumed that we were successful with that because we did a [panic?] programme, modifying equipment and setting it up. We went out on fitting parties along stations, the old chain station sites such as Pevensey, Pevensey and along the south coast and we went and fitted up this modified equipment in, in these mobile vans that we were using for the, the radar, anyway but instead of sending, you know that radar sends out a pulse from the transmitter and then it, it shuts off. It’s just a short pulse and you wait for the echo to come back. Well, now we were, we were asked to modify a transmitter so that instead of doing that it would send out a noise signal continuously and we set these stations up, mostly at the existing sites of chain stations and it wasn’t very long before the Germans called off their night raids so we always, we never got any direct feedback on it really but we always claimed that that had, that had influenced them in deciding to call it off and for some reason or other they named that Operation Meershum which of course is the name of a German type of pipe isn’t it?
CB: How is it spelled?
JRB: I think you spell it M E, M E, would it be M E E R S H U M or something like that. Meershum.
CB: Ok. We can look it up. So these mobile transmitters were placed where to achieve this?
JRB: They were sited on -
CB: On the CH stations.
JRB: Mostly the old, the old existing stations, you see.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: We were -
CB: Facing inwards.
JRB: Eh?
CB: Were they facing inwards in to the country these, these mobiles because they were on the back, the German radar was on the tail of their aircraft
JRB: They were -
CB: So to jam them they’d need to have, would they -?
JRB: Do you know I can’t quite remember.
CB: Was the idea to get the Germans before they reached the UK or more -
JRB: No. It was too -
CB: When they were inside.
JRB: After they got inside I believe.
CB: Yeah. So, so the, what I’m asking is if the mobiles were facing inside to be able to do the jamming.
JRB: Well I imagine that -
CB: They must have been mustn’t they?
JRB: The aerial would be sweeping around. On it’s usual -
CB: Ok.
JRB: Every time it came around it would -
CB: Ok.
JRB: Block them out wouldn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
JRB: I’m not quite sure about that but I know that we always thought that we stopped this mini blitz on London anyway.
CB: Right. Right. So there’s an important point here isn’t there? The CH stations only were for the protection and identification of aircraft coming towards Britain. In this particular case we’re talking about aircraft that got through the coastal area and were inside but your aerials were effectively giving a rotating beam whereas the CH stations were only directed out.
JRB: The CH stations were just directed outwards. Yeah because of course the equipment of the CH was, it would be quite impossible to –
CB: Yeah
JRB: Have it rotating anyway.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. I’ll stop there.
[recording paused]
CB: So -
JRB: The landing like Arnhem and that -
CB: They used gliders extensively.
JRB: They used gliders a lot and we, we had a, you’ve heard of the old Hamilcar glider have you?
CB: Yes. A big lifter.
JRB: A big one. Well the manufacturers sent us a dummy body of one of those to our station at Ruislip and the idea was that we were to build equipment which could fit in to this Hamilcar. So the thing was they wanted to make sure it would drive in as opposed to do it on the rule of thumb you might, might say and we had, we had specially set up equipment. These transmitters and other equipment which were in vehicles. I think the, I think the radar, yeah the radar would be in a specially built up body in a fifteen tonne truck and it had to be possible to drive it in and out of the Hamilcar so we, we had those made up locally and we’d one or two, not, not everybody could drive in those days you know.
CB: No.
JRB: And we’d one or two people who were quite good drivers and we trained them up to get these vehicles in and out the Hamilcar car. Well, we made up, I think it was six convoys like that to go with the troops and there was -
CB: That was for Arnhem was it? Or for D-day? D-day was a sea landing.
JRB: No.
CB: Was it for the vehicles.
JRB: It would be the -
CB: For Arnhem?
JRB: The river crossings wouldn’t it? The, like -
CB: Oh ok for crossing the Rhine.
JRB: Arnhem and that type of -
CB: And the Rhine. Yeah.
JRB: Wouldn’t it because that’s where the gliders were mostly used wasn’t they?
CB: Ok. Yeah.
JRB: We had special equipment for that and there was one, there was a station down near Bournemouth, Tarrant Rushton and that was a big depot for the gliders. I suppose quite near the coast to make a fairly short crossing and we took one set down there and there was some snag about it and it was suggested that I and one of my mates would accompany it. They were, they decided to do test flights to about six different stations up and down and one of them was a station near Bedford and we said well we’ll go on that one and there was a fault on it or something. I can’t quite remember just what it was at the time. So we got a trip in the glider which was quite an experience.
CB: To Twinwood Farm.
JRB: And -
CB: Twinwood Farm was the -
JRB: Yeah.
CB: Airfield there.
JRB: But you know when you, when the, when the glider casts off its rope you’re entirely at the mercy of the glider pilot and he knows that there’s no case of going around again and trying again. He’s got to put the thing down somewhere and pretty quick and it was a grass field and he, he had to land on the grass which was a bit, a bit hairy really but anyway.
CB: Were you looking our or did you close your eyes?
JRB: [laughs] No. We were looking out. But I don’t think we were very, very happy about it but of course a lot of the gliders were lost weren’t they? They were shot up and shot down before they ever got there [I reckon?]. That was about the only excitement we got with it really.
CB: What was the purpose of the tests? Was it to see whether the equipment would survive?
JRB: To see if it would be, the operational feasibility to do it, you know.
CB: I was thinking of terms -
JRB: To get out of the, to get the equipment out and rolling and get it set up isn’t it?
CB: I was thinking of the vulnerability of the valves to a heavy landing.
JRB: Well they had to take their chance didn’t they? And also it had to carry goodness knows how many jerry cans of petrol for the generator so it was a thing liable to go up in smoke at any minute sort of thing.
CB: I’ll stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
JRB: The space between D-day and VJ, wait a minute. Not D-day.
CB: Arnhem.
JRB: No. No. I’m moving on.
CB: Oh ok so crossing the Rhine.
JRB: Yeah but after, after VE day.
CB: Oh yes.
JRB: Victory in Europe.
CB: Yes.
JRB: We concentrated on the war in the east of course and we expected that to go on for quite a long time. Now the, we got reports back that the termites were eating all the insulation off the wires and that in the, in the ordinary sets so we had to strip them all down and rebuild them with this new development. PVC wiring. Because apparently they couldn’t eat that and so we had a big job taking all the receivers and transmitters to pieces and rewiring them with this termite proof wire and things like transformers and components of that type, they had to be immersed in a solution of Perspex or something very similar and dried off so that they were coated in a something that the termites wouldn’t eat which of course as you well know the American atomic bombs put a rapid end to that war so these things weren’t really needed much longer than that.
RB: Although I suppose in, would they have termites in Korea after that.
JRB: But we’d, we’d modified quite a few equipments ready to go over there.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: But that was about the end of the war wasn’t it?
CB: So that was August ‘45. Then what did you do?
JRB: Well I stayed on at Ruislip and of course things got very quiet and we didn’t do very much more until the end of the, until getting demobbed but of course as you know we all had to wait our turns for, for demob.
CB: How did they keep you busy during that period? From August ‘45 to when you were demobbed?
JRB: What did I?
CB: How did they keep you busy from that, during that period ‘cause we’re talking about eighteen months?
JRB: I think there were one or two new developments coming out because there was one case where we, it was when the parabolic reflectors started coming out more and we had one or two sessions with developing or testing those of different types. I’ve got a photograph somewhere of, of a team of us setting up one of the parabolic reflectors but I just couldn’t lay my hands on it at the moment. But that was about it really you know just thinking about new equipments coming along and developing for peace time use I suppose. More or less.
CB: So the development of the parabolic aerial. What did that do to the overall size of the convoy.
JRB: Well it wouldn’t make much difference to the convoy but they were gradually getting more into microwave technology and just general, general developments that were coming along, you know but nothing very outstanding as far as I -. The pressure was off, you know. It was -
CB: Yeah.
JRB: But we were getting, going down to TRE and setting up -
CB: So what was TRE?
JRB: Technical Research Establishment I think it was and no, it was just, of course I suppose the modern radars are a big advance on what we were using at the time but we were just experimenting and testing out some new developments during that period.
CB: ‘Cause that was at Malvern at that time wasn’t it? So did you go up there?
JRB: Malvern was a centre for that sort of thing.
CB: How many vehicles were there in these convoys? What were, what were, what were the vehicles?
JRB: Well, the big the original ones. The heavy ones there would be a transmitter, a receiver, a communications, a trailer of the aerial and a trailer for the diesel generator so there would be about five, five items in a convoy really.
CB: And as time went on they did -
JRB: And then of course when we got on to the light, the light warning system
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JRB: There would more or less be only a transmitter, a receiver and communications vehicle but all all very much smaller vehicles. More manoeuvrable.
CB: And where was the petrol stored when you were travelling? With the generator or in a different trailer? ‘Cause you used a lot of petrol or diesel.
JRB: Well as I say the ones that we did for the airborne landings they’d got to carry the petrol with them in jerry cans. Enough to run for a good time and then I suppose they’d get their supplies through normal channels you know but it wasn’t a good thing to be carrying loads of petrol on board when you’ve got troops in as well on the gliders. But I always think that I had a very easy and comfortable war compared with many, many people.
CB: So what was the accommodation like at Ruislip?
JRB: Our site, it was only a small unit, our site I think we’d two, two billets. Two huts about thirty men to a billet in the middle of a field. No, no heating unless you could scrounge some coke and get the coke stove going. No proper toilet facilities. No, no baths but there again you rely on somebody to keep the, keep the coke fired boiler going to give you hot water and and of course a few toilets but quite basic accommodation really at that place but we, we had to put up with that for several years. When I was promoted up to sergeant I had the choice of going either into, we, we were just across the, the railway tracks from the records office at Ruislip and I could have used the sergeant’s mess there but I elected to take up an option of being billeted with some friends in the area.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: So I finished off being in in billets with these people.
CB: You had to pay them rent.
JRB: Well that was all done automatically through the, through the exchequer, you know.
CB: Right.
JRB: I just had to, I suppose they got, they got sort of postal orders or something like that. They never complained. They always, always seemed to think they’ve been paid alright for it.
CB: They had your ration book.
JRB: They had my ration book yes. They [could draw?] my rations.
CB: So the accommodation for you -
JRB: ‘Cause you see in, in, when you were in RAF billets in the camp you didn’t need ration books anyway. They just -
CB: No.
JRB: You just had a cookhouse.
RB: Were you always segregated in the accommodation?
JRB: Well, eh?
RB: Were you always segregated? I mean, in your hut there would only be radar people or would there be other RAF personnel as well?
JRB: No. Just reckon that we, we were all working together in the radar.
RB: So you were all in the same boat.
JRB: Yeah all -
CB: What was the unit called? MU was it?
JRB: 4 MU.
CB: 4 MU. Yeah.
JRB: 4 MU. 4 MU at Ruislip.
CB: And where did you eat in the daytime?
JRB: We had a little cookhouse and meals were, meals were done there. And we had a NAAFI. Again, just sort of temporary. I think the NAAFI was just a, like a wooden hut but we were only a very small unit altogether you see. So that’s about what I -
CB: Good. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Now yours was mobile radar but the whole concept was based on the original chain radar. So how did that work Roy?
JRB: Well the -
CB: And where was it?
JRB: The British aircraft carried a special piece of equipment which would send out a signal when, when it, when the initial pulse from the transmitter reached the aircraft it triggered this equipment in the aircraft which would send a, a varying signal back and if the, if the echo on the CRDF was pulsing they would know it was, it was this IFF responding.
CB: So what was IFF? Identification -
JRB: Identification Friend or Foe.
CB: Right.
JRB: IFF. So if it was a British aircraft it would be, it would enable it to send out a signal which would cause the echo on the tube to vary and that’s why they would know that it was a friendly.
CB: So where were the chain radar stations?
JRB: Where were the chain stations? Well they were all along the coast. They were at Pevensey. Isle of Wight. You name it there was a whole string of them all along the coast. Every so many miles apart. I can’t tell you -
CB: And what was the purpose of the chain system?
JRB: The purpose was virtually to detect incoming raids. ‘Cause you see there, there were various systems. They realised, when war was pretty imminent they realised that we’d no way of detecting incoming bombers until they were right overhead and they tried various systems. One of them was based on the sound of the aircraft engine. They built, they built a few of these big concrete dishes supposed to pick up the sound of an engine and amplify it and give warning in that way but of course that didn’t work awfully well at all and the principal of radar was well known because it had been used, it had been, been experimented with before the war and one of its uses that they foresaw was that they would be able to measure distance to planets and so on because the same, the same theory applies. If you, if you send out a radio pulse it becomes reflected from anything it hits so if you, if you directed it towards the solar system you could, by measuring the time lapse and converting it from the well known formula of the speed of electromagnetic waves and time you could, you could work out the distance so the scientists of the day were experimenting with that sort of thing and it was just that Watson Watt seemed to get the credit for it but I think that the principal was already known before that and I have always believed that the Germans had quite good radar equipment although we always claimed it was a British invention and it was, it was a big saviour to us. Which, no doubt, it did help a great deal in the Battle of Britain but its main reason for its success was the fact that with our coastline we could form a chain of stations which would detect incoming aircraft. Now the Germans were at a disadvantage because they had such a long and dispersed coastline that they couldn’t very well cover it anyway but I’ve always had in my mind that the Germans knew quite a bit about radar and in fact do you remember we sent over a party, RAF, an RAF flight sergeant I think in charge of it. A secret landing on the French coast to capture equipment from a German station and I’ve no doubt at all that the Germans knew quite a bit more about radar than what we would admit. We were always, always, always claiming that it was an entirely British invention but it was, I think it was common knowledge in the scientific world that a radio transmission would be reflected by a solid object.
CB: What did you do after the war? You were demobbed in ’47 so what did you then do?
JRB: I came back here. My dad had carried on with his little smallholding business all during the war years and I came back fully intending to take over because he was retirement age and becoming less able to do the work and I thought that would be my future which it was for quite a few years wasn’t it Ray? When you were born it was.
RB: About, about ten years wasn’t it?
JRB: About ten years I was, I was running that.
RB: I think it was a combination of -
JRB: And we -
RB: Of cheap imports and fuel prices.
JRB: Yeah. We were, we were producing well a very nice orchard in those days which is now defunct and greenhouses and we were making our living from that. I got married just after the end of the war and my wife came. She was a girl from London but she came up here and threw her lot in with, with me helping on the smallholding and that’s what we did for, as Ray says, about ten years and then there was a time when prices were very bad for produce and unless you’d a lot of capital to develop in a big way the small, the small units were beginning to get faded out. You know, they were getting superseded and I think it was when, we used to sell our produce on the market at Preston you see. Well you could go, you could go and set up your stall on Preston Market and sell your own produce but that all seemed to fade away didn’t it Ray? You know I don’t think they have that your way now do they?
RB: I think supermarkets really -
JRB: And supermarkets.
RB: The nail in the coffin weren’t they?
JRB: Supermarkets were beginning to come along and of course they were only interested in making contracts with the, with the big producers and it just got it wasn’t really a viable thing and of course with having had my wartime experience and knowledge of radio I applied to -
RB: The civil service. Barton Hall.
JRB: I think, there was an air traffic control centre just outside Preston just on the A6 going north from Preston called Barton, Barton Hall and that was, it, there was a Met section and what do you call it Ray? A meteorological section.
RB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JRB: And there was a civilian section which was connected with Manchester Airport and that was, it had an airline for civilian aircraft coming down from Scotland into Manchester and that was like a first contact point this, this civilian air traffic control and also running alongside it more or less the RAF had got a emergency system. The idea being that we did twenty four hour coverage and but we had what in those days was considered to be state of the art technology which enabled us to position accurately an aircraft anywhere over the north of England virtually which was called auto triangulation. Now the idea being that we had, of course, remember this was entirely before the days of the, of the satellites and the the navigation that they’ve got today. We had a selection of RAF airfields in the area. Woodvale, Bishop’s, what were it? Bishops Court Northern Ireland, one on the Isle of Man, another up on the Cumbrian coast and one or two further inland over the Pennine areas and with this equipment which was put in by Standard Telephones we could get a position from each of these, each of these RAF stations could give you the bearing of on aircraft.
CB: They could triangulate it.
JRB: They could triangulate it by, we had this big, big screen with the map of the area on it and the position of each of our forward relay stations as we called them and if an aircraft, it was, it was designed specifically for aircraft in distress, civilian or RAF and when an aircraft transmitted on the international distress frequency it would draw traces from the various stations on our big map and a cross, well it was never a perfect cross it was always a little bit ambiguous but roughly call it, they called it a cocked hat. It would form a little, maybe like a little five sided area of probability so that you could say, you could, you could call the pilot up again on a forward relay station. You see all this, we’d got land lines, GPO lines to each of these stations so our controller could use, well, say for instance valley in the isle, in the -
CB: Anglesey.
JRB: Anglesey was one of them. We could use their transmitter if the aircraft was in that area.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: Or we could use one of the other transmitters, speak over the landline to that local transmitter and of course you’d get a better signal than if it was coming all the way from Preston and, and we could give him, give him his position pretty accurately and we could say, you know, ask the nature of his emergency and say well fly such and such a vector to such and such an airfield you see and direct him to try and get down.
CB: This is because you were using a big planned position indicator with a map on it aren’t you?
JRB: Yeah.
CB: And when he squawks then the line comes out.
JRB: We used, you know the television, the early television projector sets? They had a little, a little tube which would project on to a bigger screen hadn’t they? Not very distinct I would always thought but anyway we used those same -
CB: Same principal.
JRB: Those same tubes to project on to this big map that we had on our control desk and so it worked very well that did but we, we had to run on it on a watch system because it was covering the twenty four hours.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: And it was the emergency service you see.
CB: So what were you doing there?
JRB: I was maintaining all the equipment.
CB: Right.
JRB: At the Preston end.
CB: Now, you were, you during that period you trans -
JRB: You see, we had to, over our land line we could talk to the people at, at each station and if the, if we suspected that their signals were not quite right we’d have to call them to go and have a look at their equipment on the airfield and check and of course we, we used to have the authority over them to call them out if necessary for that sort of thing but it was quite a, quite a good system really but of course the sat nav type thing has entirely put that into the history books hasn’t it now?
CB: Yeah.
JRB: You’ll have heard of the RAF equipments called CADF and CRDF. Well they were installed on the airfields and each control tower if the, if the aircraft in his area called up his own station could give him his bearing to fly to the station but it couldn’t give him how many miles away it was or anything like that so this would give him a fixed position. So we used to have, thankfully we didn’t have a lot of emergencies, true emergencies but we used to do a lot of test, tests with aircraft in the area. So call, call up on the emergency channel and just check that everything was in order you know. It worked very well I thought.
CB: Now that was a transition. During that period you were, the technology was moving from valves to printed circuits. Well to -
JRB: Only just. This equipment -
CB: Transistors was what I meant to say.
JRB: This equipment was still on valves.
CB: Was it?
JRB: But -
CB: So we’re talking about the fifties and the sixties are we?
JRB: A friend, a friend of mine who served with me in the RAF after the war, this is Terry Parnell, he got a job at Standard Telephones and he, the two direction finding equipment that I mentioned CADF and CRDF they were in use by the RAF using the valve technology and I believe he converted it and brought out the transistorised versions of it and that worked alright for quite a long time.
CB: So when did you retire?
JRB: When did I retire?
RB: Well there was, there was another stage in your career when Barton Hall closed down in the early 70s. You went to Sealand didn’t you and you were working for the civil service at the, on laser, laser guided things.
JRB: Oh that was later on wasn’t it? Yes, of course.
RB: After Barton Hall closed down. So you actually retired from the laser -
JRB: Originally –
RB: Thing.
JRB: Originally we had five control centres. There was Preston, Barton Hall, Uxbridge and one up near the Scottish borders somewhere wasn’t there? Anyway there were about five, five areas. Well gradually they combined them. We took over the Yorkshire stations as well as our western stations and Uxbridge took over from somebody else so it was centralised from five to about three and then eventually it was centralised all on Uxbridge so of course the Barton Hall equipment was superfluous as regards this auto triangulation system. It was all being done collectively through Uxbridge.
RB: That’s when you were transferred to Sealand.
JRB: And that’s when, that’s when I transferred to Sealand which as you know is on, near Chester and I worked there until the end of the war er till the end of the, of my service.
CB: Which was 19 -
JRB: To my retirement and -
CB: 75 was it? 1970’s
RB: ‘85.
JRB: Sixty five wasn’t I?
RB: Yeah but ’85 you were sixty five.
CB: 1985
JRB: Yes I retired at sixty five and the last bit of my time there I was on, 30 MU at Sealand was a big RAF station. It had been a wartime flying station.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: And it became a central maintenance unit for airborne radio for the RAF. Most of the, most of the stations, if they had faulty equipment it would be sent to Sealand to be sorted out at that one place you see instead of each station doing their own repair work.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: It would come to a sensible point which was Sealand. So I worked on that for several years and then the Cossor’s, not Cossor’s, Ferranti’s. Ferranti’s of Edinburgh, they developed a laser equipment.
CB: At Sealand.
JRB: Now laser as you probably know is quite similar to ordinary radar but it’s using a different part of the spectrum.
CB: Infra-red.
JRB: It’s using infra-red and they, I don’t know whether it’s still in use but they fitted it in the Jaguars and I think in the new, the new fighter that replaced, well it was the Jaguar wasn’t it but I can’t remember what that was called but anyway but that was known as, I’m just trying to remember the [pause] Oh mark, laser ranger and marked target seeker. Now that had two purposes. From an aircraft it could, it could detect and range on a target or alternatively somebody on the ground, hopefully a little squaddie with a pack set, could direct this laser on to a bridge say that he wanted eliminating and that would be detected by the aircraft who could then range on that specific target you see so that’s why they called it the marked target seeker. So I worked on that which was a new technology again altogether using, as you said, infra-red instead of -
CB: To illuminate the target.
JRB: Radio waves. And I believe they used that in the Shetlands.
RB: The Falklands.
CB: In the Falklands war.
JRB: In the Falklands. Sorry. In the Falklands and one or two incidents since I believe but I don’t know whether it’s still, you see this, this is, we’re going back now what thirty years Ray. Something like that.
RB: Well yeah it was before Kit was born. Kit’s thirty at the end of this month.
JRB: Yeah.
RB: That’s my son, dad’s grandson.
JRB: Yes. That’s right.
RB: He’s thirty in a few weeks.
JRB: So presumably that equipment is now out of date anyway.
CB: Well just more sophisticated isn’t it?
JRB: It was the start of the, start of the laser usage for this purpose.
CB: Yes. Right. Excellent.
JRB: And then of course that was what I worked on right up to the end of my civil -
RB: Until you retired.
JRB: Service type of thing.
CB: So how many years did you do in the civil service? About thirty I suppose.
JRB: Something like that.
CB: ‘55 to ’85.
JRB: Something like that. Yeah. At, I was up at Barton Hall for quite a number of years wasn’t I Ray and then at Sealand again.
RB: Yeah.
JRB: About thirty years I suppose. Yeah.
CB: Right. We’re stopping there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: As a final point Roy what was the most memorable point about your service in the RAF?
JRB: In the RAF.
[pause]
JRB: I don’t know. It’s hard to say really.
[pause]
CB: Ok. What about in, in, when you, in civilian life? Was there a memorable part of your activities when you became a civil servant with radar, laser and so on?
JRB: No. There was nothing very exciting about it I’m afraid. It was just, just the same humdrum stuff.
CB: And what was your interests in the background in all that time? Were you keen on sport or some other -?
JRB: Never been much of a sportsman but I think, would you say our, our overseas holiday trips? That sort of -?
RB: Yeah. Well you went on foreign language courses didn’t you and did evening schools in various things.
JRB: Yes.
RB: Did you do a maths course? What was that -
JRB: No. I didn’t do a maths course.
RB: You didn’t do maths. Some, some
JRB: You see Peter, Peter -
RB: Sort of, was it a City and Guilds course you did? Something in -
JRB: Yes. Well that was more to do with my service life wasn’t it? The City and Guilds. It was qualification for -
RB: You did sort of later, qualifications in later life didn’t you?
JRB: Yes.
RB: And did you do Italian courses? And French.
JRB: Well I did one or two study courses. Yeah.
CB: Good. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Just clarifying the mini blitz because clearly that was a memorable thing for you. You had to react quickly did you to this situation and so was this a particularly memorable event? The Meershum.
JRB: Yes it was because it was a sudden request that we got and we had to pull the stops out and design a modification to the equipment and get it, get it out to the airfields. We’d quite a hectic time going around and installing it at the various -
CB: At the CH stations.
JRB: Fields.
CB: Was it at airfields or CH stations?
JRB: It was at CH stations.
CB: Right. Thanks.
RB: That the [unclear?] isn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
JRB: Have you got it there?
CB: How long did it take you to do this? Literally a weekend or was it weeks?
JRB: Literally, literally just over a weekend.
CB: Amazing.
JRB: We were going all over the place, split up into different fitting parties and took one, one equipment to each station you see and set it up. So we landed down at Pevensey and that was the one that I was most involved in and the rest of our company did likewise. We were all separate, separate little fitting parties going along the various -
CB: You went by road -
JRB: Stations.
CB: I presume.
JRB: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JRB: Yes. They laid transport on for us and of course we went, went straight to these stations.
CB: Good.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with James Burdin
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-02-06
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01:51:55 audio recording
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Sound
Identifier
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ABurdinJR170206
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
James Burdin went at Hutton Grammar School and worked on radio repair and sales. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force but had to wait and joined the Local Defence Volunteers instead. He did some rifle practice, general infantry training and patrols. James had his initial training at Blackpool where the winter gardens had been converted into a Morse school. Owing his background in radio, he later went to work on radar: he discusses his postings at different training establishments and provides details of radar technical advances, installation, modify and repair, vulnerability and equipment mobility. James served in mobile equipment units in Algeria (Operation Torch), Tunisia, Egypt, Normandy (D-Day landings), crossing of the Rhine, Netherlands (Operation Market Garden), Mauthausen camp (Operation Meerschaum). Discusses the end of the war, continuing to work at 4 Maintenance Unit at RAF Ruislip developing equipment, components and technologies. He then worked at the Technical Research Establishment until demobilised in 1947.
After an unsuccessful attempt to run his family business, he applied for the civil service and worked until 1985 on radar development, auto triangulation, Cathode-Ray Direction Finder, Identification Friend or Foe, infrared devices, laser and chain radar stations.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Lancashire
England--Blackpool
Algeria
Austria
Austria--Mauthausen
Egypt
France
Germany
Rhine River
Netherlands
Netherlands--Arnhem
Tunisia
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
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1944
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
civil defence
demobilisation
Gneisenau
Home Guard
military living conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
radar
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Ruislip
recruitment
sanitation
Scharnhorst
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/508/8409/PDixonAS1501.2.jpg
f02964fdfafb37d33692b060246c6078
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/508/8409/ADixonAS151106.2.mp3
54a81115d09ad9d86498297a44c1d90e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Dixon, Alec Stuart
A S Dixon
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Dixon, AS
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alec Stuart Dixon (178872 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Alec Dixon. The interview is taking place at Mr Dixon’s home in Cleethorpes on the 6th of November 2015.
AD: Well, we start when I was nineteen and I thought there was going to be a war so I thought I’d better get myself the best job of all. Be a pilot. And there was an opportunity because the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve had opened up Waltham Aerodrome as a training centre so I applied for the interview. There were three wing commanders I had to convince that I was the type of person that would make a good pilot and I succeeded in that but my entry was delayed because of a tooth that needed filling. When I got, when I finally got signed up it was on May the 3rd I think, when I signed up for flying at Waltham. The aircraft I was flying was on Miles Magisters and we attended every weekend for flying and during the week we attended the town centre for lectures on various subjects and this continued right through to August when there was the stunning announcement that we were to be all called up and Waltham Aerodrome would be closed down. This did happen and we all hung around waiting for something to happen that would accelerate our training. We were all posted down to Hastings where, if the Germans had had any sense when we were there it was absolutely full of potential pilots and if they sent a stream of bombers down the sea front they’d wipe the air force out without any trouble at all. Anyway, they didn’t do it. They weren’t as bright as they thought they were. From Hastings I went to Burnaston in Derbyshire and continued single-engined training and from there I moved to Little Rissington where I went on the twin-engined aircraft and during that procedure we were asked what we wanted to fly on ops and I opted to fly for the latest thing they had which was the Beaufort torpedo bomber. I thought that sounded rather good and anyway when I’d finished my training on Ansons I was posted to Silloth and there I was trained as a Hudson pilot and when I say trained as a Hudson pilot they had a particularly, method of crewing. Normally you get a pilot, second pilot, navigator, flight engineer, wireless operator and air gunners but a Hudson pilot the two pilots had to be trained on all those things. We used to fly one trip, one pilot would fly, the next trip the other pilot would fly. The second pilot would then be a bomb aimer. Maybe the flight engineer. He had, he had to be good at aldis, the lamp and at Morse. Very high specification and also operate the gunner, the gunnery turret or the side swivel gun. We had Vickers, no, yeah a Vickers gas operated. On completion of my training I went to a squadron at Leuchars in Scotland where the task was reconnoitring the Norwegian coast, the Baltic, and any shipping sailing in that area. For the first few trips I flew the squadron leader who was the flight commander. Anyway, we didn’t stay there very long and when we got over to Limavady, no, to Aldergrove. Aldergrove in Ireland which has a runway which is more like a, I forget the name of the thing. Switchback ride. It was, it leaned over on one side and back on the other and I was pleased to get to Limavady where we only had a mountain to negotiate on the circuit. There we did convoy escort and looking for submarines and that and one day I was flying, I was due to be pilot and my navigator, the other pilot hadn’t turned up and it so happened that he’d been collared by the CO, Wing Commander [Curnow] and we were after the Bismarck so I said, ‘Well you’ll want me won’t you?’ He said, ‘Oh yes. You can man the side gun.’ So there were three pilots on board and we set off and straight across Ireland. We didn’t take any notice of the neutrality of the country. We went straight on course to the station that we’d been, or a spot where we were told to patrol. I think we could see the Bismark quite a long long way away and then we caught up with a Heinkel and it turned tail and started running away from us. The CO chased it. Fired the front guns at it. Didn’t do any good. We drew alongside. Not quite near enough and [pumped lead?] at each other. I was shooting at the starboard engine on the Heinkel and I think I saw a puff of smoke come out but anyway the, my co-pilot had decided that we were running out of petrol so we’d better break off the chase and get back to Ireland which we did. Straight across neutral Ireland and that was that. Sometime later, I did quite a number of trips on the Atlantic convoy business and then one day on DROs they were asking for volunteers for PRU, Photographic Reconnaissance Unit and the chap who interviewed me said, ‘It’s more than likely you’ll go on to the new Mosquito.’ So I thought well that would be smashing. And there was a bit of a hold up in me leaving, leaving the squadron and when I got there they’d filled the course up with applicants and I was excluded so instead of hanging around they said would you like to do the Spitfires? And the Spitfire on PRU was rather a splendid aeroplane. They’d removed the guns from, and the ammunition boxes and all that from the wings and fitted it with petrol tanks which gave us a range you start here and you can go six hundred miles and come back. Twelve hundred miles altogether. Nearly about nearly six hours flying depending on the height you were flying at and everything. And it was, I was posted. When I finished the CO said, ‘Have you flown a spitfire before?’ I said, ‘No. I’m a Hudson man,’ and he said, ‘Well there’s the handbook, go and sit in the aeroplane, on the flight line and I’ll see you at 2 o’clock and ask you questions about it.’ So I had to learn all the controls and everything and he came up, ran me through and said, ‘Well you’re alright then. Off you go.’ Now, I’d been told that the Spitfire was very light on the stick fore and aft and on a Hudson it was a two handed job shoving it forward to get the tail up to get speed for take-off and I’m afraid my delicate touch [laughs] didn’t suit the Spitfire at that time. I went down the runway nearly like a camel and off on my first trip which was the, some channel ports, Languedoc aerodrome which was to the northwest of Brest, Brest [pause] and Brest and I photographed there and nothing happened. And I did most of my photography at twenty eight thousand feet which is the best suited for the cameras to give the most detail and down the coast again to where was I going then. Oh, St Nazaire. St Nazair, [?] [Dulon?] quite a lot of small places. Right down to Bordeaux and the River Gironde and then to, along to the Spanish coast and go down on the way to [?] on the Mediterranean. I never got as far as that but I used to take photographs of between, along the French Franco Spanish border in case people wanted escape routes and I thought they’d be helpful. Nobody ever said anything about, about it being useful but it might have been. And then back to base which was, you know an uneventful event and we occasionally saw the odd fighter aircraft but a Spitfire at that time was fitted with a special engine which you were allowed to use full throttle for twelve minutes and it gave some phenomenal speeds. A normal indicated speed was about a hundred and eighty knots which had to be converted according to temperature and that so you had to do all your own navigation and it was fairly easy getting the right places on the coast. Coming back, we usually came back inland photographing any aerodromes that might be there and always photograph the coast as you went out ready for the invasion. I did quite, quite [coughs], quite a few trips and then on one trip I was, we did occasionally get flak but on one trip over Brest they put up a bloody big barrage and I could hear the shrapnel hit my tail, or the fuselage behind but I had three miles a minute, a hundred and eighty miles an hour. A hundred and eighty yeah, three miles a minute. I soon finished the run along Brest harbour, turned left and went into overdrive because radio in England had said there were some bandits about. I thought that’s just what I want, cheer somebody up tell them there’s some bandits. Anyway, all of sudden the windscreen covered in oil, the canopy in oil and I couldn’t see a thing so I thought this is really a cheerful trip and I tried opening the canopy which I did and got my goggles all oiled up so I had to get, lean over to the other side of the cockpit to get looking through about a two inch gap but it didn’t give me much view and all the way back St Eval. When I got to St Eval I was feeling pretty tired and when I made my approach I was, and due to the fact that I couldn’t gauge things right because of the oil on the windscreen I came in a bit too high and landed a too far down the runway. Well that was alright. I’ll put my brakes on. I put my brakes on. Course they’d got oil on them as well and they didn’t work. I knew there was a hedge at the end of the runway so I just trickled along, switched the engine off so that it didn’t put a load on the engine, or the propeller, ran in to the hedge, tipped gently on the nose and wondered how to get out. I needn’t have bothered. There was a jeep alongside me and the flight commander and what not helped me out and that was that. They decided then that I should go to Fraserburgh as an instructor which I did and at Fraserburgh, this is another [laughs] the medical officer apparently got a bit of dual from the dual flying with an instructor and I was asked to take him up one day and I did do and we were coming in to land and I thought he’s going to be short on runway but just couldn’t tell but what I didn’t know was that the concrete runway was about ten inches higher than the ground preceding it and he touched down about a couple of feet on the grass, wiped the undercarriage off and there was another thing to explain. Anyway, they decided it wasn’t my fault and anyway he shouldn’t have been flying and it was all hushed up and off we went. When I left Fraserburgh I went into the village with my friend and at night we used to catch the train back to the camp and the driver didn’t turn up so my friend, he knew how to drive a train so he waited until the departure time and drove it back to the station and everybody got out all, no late coming back, you know, absent, or without leave sort of thing. That was quite an interesting event. But anyway, we went down to Dyce and there Aberdeen was the town and there was also a railway station just outside the entrance to the camp and we quite often, we’d overstay and sleep on the train in Aberdeen station and get back ready. The flight office was just around the corner from the entrance which was next to the station ready for flying. From there I was posted to Gibraltar and there I flew a Gladiator and a Lysander on meteorological flight and it was a devil to land at Gibraltar in the Gladiator because if the wind was in a certain direction from the southwest, yeah, southwest, the rock used to divide it and you would be coming downwind at one end and into wind at the other and the Gladiator would fly on, fly on in a breeze and wouldn’t touch down so it was quite, quite an experience as a pilot. From there, I only did a short spell there and I went on another course to, I forget the name of the aerodrome near Edinburgh, on a refresher course where I managed to get an above average assessment and posted to the Middle East. To [pause] Cairo where I had quite a smashing time and then from there I was posted to [Al Shamir?] in Palestine as a staff pilot and flying Navigators around Palestine and quite a cushy job. And then I decided I should go back. Oh I was recommended for a commission there. I was a young warrant officer at the time and I passed my commission and I was posted to an operational squadron in, due to invade Greece but when I got there the boat had left and I had to wait for transport to get me to Greece. At Greece we chased the Germans up Greece and past Salonica and from Salonica we set out one morning to bomb the marshalling yards at somebody slimovic or something like that. Peculiar name. And on the way I had engine trouble and the engine kept cutting and I couldn’t maintain speed in the squadron so the CO said you’d better turn around and go back if you can and the misfiring became more obvious and I picked out a piece of ground that looked a bit boggy and I thought well if I land in there wheels up I should be alright and I did do and I got out the aeroplane. Started walking. I don’t know why I walked in that direction but I did. Two men popped out from behind a hedge with guns levelled at me and I was, ‘Englesi. Englesi.’ They looked rather doubtful. Anyway I managed to convince them because we were dressed in battle dress which was grey and similar to the German stuff and the Germans had wings on their right hand side and we had ours on the left and we went to the village. Well they took us to the schoolmaster’s house and he spoke a bit of English and we all sat down nattering away and that night they all came, quite a few of the village came around and they have a system there where when they’ve made the wine and they then make a very potent brew. I don’t know what they call it but the idea is you toss it down and then they have a plate of jam on the table and you just stick your fist in it and then slam the jam down your throat. It’s the only way you can drink it and you can imagine after about a half a dozen of these everybody’s face was covered in jam and I woke up the next morning very [fit?] [laughs] from which I was very pleased with a terrible headache. Anyway, I set off to walk back to Salonica. I managed to get a ride on a horse and cart for a short while. In the meantime I’m carrying my parachute and everything with me and eventually when I got near Salonica which I don’t know whether it was the same day or the next day. I can’t really remember and that was the end of that episode and the Germans were still running away up in Macedonia which incidentally was where this place I’d had the drinks at and I saw the CO when I got back and he said, ‘I’ll send you on another course.’ And back to Egypt to take a single-engine pilot’s gunnery and bombing course. Instructor’s course. So I did that, completed that and found out that my squadron had been disbanded. It was getting quite late on in the war and I was posted to 43 squadron which was in Italy and I packed all my gear, called in at the aerodrome. They said I couldn’t take my gear with me. I said, ‘If I can’t take my gear with me I’m not going.’ Anyway, I got, got my way to Italy and just in time to do my last operational flight. It was because in Italy the Italians surrendered on May the 3rd which was the day I’d joined six years earlier of continuous flying. And when I’d been commissioned I was, it was a sort of an agreement that I would stay on in the RAF after the war and probably take up a permanent commission and I thought that was good but after the excitement, as you might call it, and interest of wartime it seemed damned silly playing games for something you’d been doing for real for six years and I decided that I would take the option of being demobbed in the normal way which happened to be sometime before Christmas in ‘45 would it be? Yeah. Forty. Yeah in ’45 and I was home for Christmas and my favourite drinking place was the Lifeboat Hotel on the seafront and whilst I was going in there one night and I heard my name called and the sister of one of my friends introduced Audrey. My wife-to-be to me. And I think it must have been instant attraction. Love. Whatever. She’s a wonderful girl.
[machine paused]
AD: [?] in the mess and the CO came in and said, ‘I want six of you to disarm a German group,’ and we went there and we found there was an SS and a load of Italians. I don’t think they were on full strength. I don’t know how many there were. So we marched them forward, pistols here, rifles here, grenades there and I think they were quite happy to see the end of the war. From then on, I’d given my intention of leaving the air force and I came off flying and did the adjutant’s job while he was on leave. I think I sent too many people on leave. We got into trouble for that. [laughs] And then I was home. I’d missed a bit, got a lot of that mixed up, meeting Audrey in, in The Lifeboat. From there I went back to my job. I took some shares in the business and we decided we’d build a bungalow or something. A friend of mine was a builder and he built three bungalows. This one, the next one and the one. Had a garden a hundred yards long to start with and then the Corporation took so much for road widening, grass verges.
[phone ringing. Machine paused]
AH: Carry on.
AD: Yes. So we made plans. We made plans to get married. We married on April the 24th 1948 which was a Saturday and we moved in to here for our honeymoon. We couldn’t afford to go away after paying deposits and that and started married life together which has been great ever since. Except she’s getting a bit bossy nowadays. [laughs] Don’t put that. Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Oh I didn’t tell you about when we were in Greece we used to fly over to Crete which was occupied by German troops. Landed in Heraklion. The aerodrome about midway from the main town and there the Wellington would land unload, some hundred pound bombs. We’d stick them underneath the Spit, take off and go and bomb the, what we were told was an ammunition dump. As we were getting near to the end of the war and nobody particularly fancied bombing an ammunition dump from the normal height that we bombed targets at. I’m afraid we, nothing happened. It was all false information to start with. Everybody was very happy and then that’s when we went back to Salonica and that’s the end of the war.
AH: How did you get home to England?
AD: Oh back to England. There was another story there. We went by train through Switzerland, France -
Other: I’ll switch this light on. It’s getting a bit dark.
AD: Calais and there we were camped for a night and caught the boat the next morning. There were six officers I think. Six. And probably about two hundred men and we sort of paraded on the front and the, called all the officers in to the office. Searched us all. Searched the kit and nobody discovered anything so that was fine and we got out and they just marched the men straight through without any, I thought rather discriminatory. Reversed some way or other. Do you want any more?
AH: And did you get leave when you got home?
AD: Oh yes. Yeah, I got, I was on leave for my overseas tour and demobilisation tour so I became a civvy for quite a while before returning to work where I’d, after a while I discovered that the firm were not quite on the straight path with me so I left and started my own business in the same line and then the owner of the business died and there were three accountants who were friends of his, who lent him the money to start the business and they were naturally interested in getting their money back so they approached me and asked me if I would take charge and go back to my old company which I did and we built up a really good business. Grimsby Corporation, Cleethorpes Corporation, Grimsby Rural District. Most of the solicitors including the big ones and most of the garages including main dealers. All under contract to us. Stationery Office. We even did the American Air Force at East Kirkby and so I continued until I was sixty five and I hung on three months and let the other two, and three run the business. And since then I’ve been gardening and enjoying life until I went blind. And it’s been a slow process. At first I couldn’t believe that I was registered blind. Macular degeneration. And it rapidly got worse and worse and worse. Practically total. And that’s the end of the story. Anything I missed Daniel?
DS: I think -
AD: [?] An engine failure on take-off and the aircraft swung and I managed to hold it after it had swung so far and run off the runway on to the grass because the rest of the squadron were ready to take off and unfortunately I didn’t know they’d dug a small trench parallel with the runway. The wheels got stuck and we swung around even more and I shouted evacuate ‘cause we were loaded with mines. Not mines, depth charges but I was too late they’d already clustered around the door, opened it and were out so I got myself out as well and that was the end of that. When I was flying I think I flew about ten different aircrafts. Different aircraft. I managed to have about five accidents on them. None of which were my fault thank goodness and that’s about it.
AH: Was it a shock? Was it strange to come home and not fly anymore?
AD: No. Not really. I was enjoying myself. New girlfriend. Plans. I’m busy with them. You know, running my own business and then joining in with my old firm. No. It seemed quite the natural thing to do. I have flown since. I had a lot of photographs that it’d, I don’t know whether I ought to tell you this really because it’s all water under the bridge. Might delete it later. Benson held a reunion for sixty years in existence, a PRU and I was invited there and asked if I had any photographs taken on operations which I had a photograph album full. So I stripped most of them out, handed them in and never got them back. And Daniel I met, here’s another strange coincidence. I met Daniel in Marks and Spencers. I was sitting near the entrance and this bloke came in and sat, he was waiting as well and we got in to conversation and found that he was air force and I was and we’ve been friends ever since. Jolly good.
AH: What did you enjoy flying most?
AD: What did I enjoy flying most? I don’t think anybody can fly anything better than a Spitfire. Mosquito was alright but it gave a lot of trouble. They only had one, its prototype, and it gave a lot of trouble and of course was extended and extended. Eventually they got things right. The Gladiator was a nice aeroplane to fly. As an aeroplane it was very sharp on turns and it was nicely aerobatic. You could do rolls and whatnot which you weren’t supposed to do if you were on a Met flight flying but you have to do something to make it interesting. Yeah. A Spitfire I’d plump for. I flew. I’ll tell you what I flew. Miles Magister. Anson. Oxford. Hudson. Mosquito one trip. Boulton Paul Defiant. A German aircraft I picked up when we went into Greece. An Auster. I’m sure there was one or two more. The Spit was definitely the best aeroplane to fly. I think most Spitfire pilots would tell you that. Oh, I flew a Hurricane as well. You tend to forget these things you know. I’m the same as any other ninety six year old. I can remember some things but not others. I thought I had a good memory but I’m beginning to think it’s not as good as my wife’s. She’s got family relations tied down no end. Tells me stuff from years back that I can’t remember. It’s a pity really. Pity? No. Not pity. It’s very unsettling.
[pause]
AD: Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Anyway. That’s about it dear.
AH: Thank you.
[machine paused]
AD: The essential to the German army that they had the use of that otherwise they had to give way to the Russians.
DS: But I think Coventry and the blitz were previous to that so -
AD: Oh it was tit for tat.
DS: Yeah.
AD: It was the same with London wasn’t it? There were no civilians in the war. Everybody was in it except those wide boys who lived on the black market and I think everybody patronised them. They were essential to keeping the job going really. Very unfairly but -
AH: Had you always wanted to be a pilot? Was it -
AD: Yes. My uncle was in the Royal Flying Corps during World War One and he had a garage and a cycle shop and motorbike agencies in Cleethorpes and I wanted to go and work for him when I left school but he had to get somebody in. The business had got too big and there wasn’t room for me. My mother died when I was about six or seven and a simple dose of antibiotics if it had been invented would have probably [pause]. Yeah.
[pause]
AD: Yeah. I often wondered what it was like being on a bomber crew. I think they were a very brave lot.
AH: Did you know any?
AD: Hmmn?
AH: Did you know any?
AD: Oh I lost quite a lot of friends. You see there were eighty of us I think at the beginning of the war and I’ve never met more than a dozen people afterwards. I’ve forgotten most of their names. You wouldn’t think you could do would you but you do.
[pause]
AD: Yeah. I remember when I was at St Eval. Ted Phillipson had joined me who was my, we used to motorbike together. He was a great friend. He turned up at St Eval. I didn’t see him but I had a phone call and I arranged to see him at his digs when he’d returned from a trip down to patrol the bay in a Whitley and I was going down to Bordeaux and back and it would take him all day doing it and he didn’t turn up. His body was washed ashore.
[pause]
AD: Oh dear.
[pause]
AD: That was a painting done by a friend of mine and he personalised it by putting, I forget whether it was a squadron in Greece or Italy. All PRU machines were, flush riveting and filled in and smoothed and a dull finish. Blue. And we had some pink ones which we used for low level photography. Bruneval being one fine example. You know the German radar station on the French coast. We wanted to find out all about it. Sent a PR Spit on a cloudy day, photographed the, and brought it back and did they ever send a raiding party across?
DS: I’m not sure.
AD: I’m not sure. Anyway, it ceased to be of the use that it was before it was done. You know, important little things like that in PR used to happen and all taken in as part of a day’s work.
AH: What was it like flying off to - ?
AD: Hmmn?
AH: What was it like going somewhere to photograph?
AD: Well I always had a faith that I would survive. Self-confidence. And it’s a belief without being religious but you are, believe that the Gods will look after you. If you haven’t got that you can suffer all kinds of things. It didn’t bother me a great deal because I was sufficiently confident. Perhaps over confident. I don’t know. Anyway, I survived. And I’m also very lucky what the Gods did. Anyway, I hope you got something out of all that lot.
AH: That’s lovely. Thank you.
[machine paused]
AD: Funny thing was we were never debriefed. You know when crews got back from an operation they always saw an intelligence officer and were debriefed as to what had happened. All the little incidents, whatnot. We were just told the target is this place, that place, that place. The was briefing before we had, and I used to have a map with return home points in case you got in to trouble and when we got back nobody asked you if anything had happened. You never bothered, nobody bothered very much about telling anybody they’d been shot at, chased or, I think it was regarded as [a bit in for a dig?] It might sound as if you’ve been boasting or something like that because the photographs were the whole purpose of the trip. They were the evidence that you’d been there, you’d done a good job. What more could you tell them? Nothing about their job of interpretation. I did hear later on in the, after, was it after the war? Yes it was after the war. The Germans had a photographic unit and of course they had some special Leica lenses that we didn’t have and they used to get some really clear photographs but we only had the first phase interpretation. They looked as if there was nothing obvious. They were just put, stored under February the 4th, 4:30 so and so and that was all they did whereas on PRU at Medmenham there was a second phase, a third phase of interpretation which is why that rocket at Peenemunde was suddenly discovered on one of the photographs on the third stage. It had been missed on the first and second and then that resulted in a bombing raid on Peenemunde. It was quite a satisfying job. Allowed you a great deal of freedom and licence. I remember when I finished my course on learning to fly the Spitfire the CO said, ‘I want you to go now and learn the coast from the Thames to the Humber and then next week we’ll do the south coast.’ And I flew up and I thought Humber? Well that’s where I live. So get up to Cleethorpes and have a look around. I can see the street and I went down to about a hundred feet and flew over it, pulled up and thought I’ll go around again and I went down and years later I met a bloke who lived in, opposite and he said he was upstairs looking out and he could see me in the cockpit. I was so low I must have caused a lot of consternation on the street then. The trouble was my father didn’t see me. He was ill in bed. Never recovered. There’s been a lot on radio recently about going back into the past. Wondering how it affects you. Yeah. Really got to try and find yourself haven’t you? [pause] And you’ll be wanting to go home now, won’t you?
AH: It’s very interesting. Did you have any brothers or sisters?
AD: I had a sister [she’s not?] two nephews. Keep in touch with them. My mother’s name was Dixon before she married and quite a big family but I think there was some trouble with things.
[pause]
AH: Thank you.
[machine paused]
AH: This is a continuation of the interview conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre with Mr Alec Dixon. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles and the interview took place at Mr Dixon’s home in Cleethorpes on the 6th of November 2015.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alec Stuart Dixon
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-06
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADixonAS151106, PDixonAS1501
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Format
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01:12:07 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Alec Stuart Dixon volunteered for the Royal Air Force via the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. After training he flew Beauforts and Ansons, then trained as a Hudson pilot. He flew convoy escort operations and reconnaissance flights looking for submarines and the Bismarck. Recollects flying over neutral Ireland. Alec volunteered for Photographic Reconnaissance Unit and flew over France, the Spanish border the Mediterranean and Peenemünde. Followed sustained damage on one operation he became an instructor, was posted to Gibraltar flying a Gladiator and a Lysander on meteorological flights. Successive posts were Cairo, then Palestine and Italy with 43 Squadron. After the end of the war, he returned to his old workplace then started a company with friends.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
France
Germany
Germany--Peenemünde
Gibraltar
Great Britain
Ireland
Italy
Mediterranean Sea
Middle East--Palestine
North Africa
43 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
Bismarck
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
demobilisation
faith
Hudson
Lysander
Photographic Reconnaissance Unit
pilot
RAF Silloth
RAF St Eval
reconnaissance photograph
recruitment
Spitfire
submarine
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/474/8420/NClydeSmithD-190916-01.2.jpg
d00c222f4c0bc69607fd77694c46ab58
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Clyde-Smith, Denis
Clyde-Smith, D
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains 26 items and concerns Squadron Leader Denis Clyde-Smith Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross, who joined the Royal Air Force and trained as a pilot in 1937. He flew in the anti aircraft cooperation role including remotely piloted Queen Bee aircraft before serving on Battle aircraft on 32 Squadron. He completed operational tours on Wellington with 115 and 218 Squadrons and Wellington and Lancaster with 9 Squadron after which he went to the aircraft and armament experimental establishment at Boscombe Down. The collection consists of two logbooks, aircraft histories of some of the aircraft he flew, photographs of people and aircraft, newspaper articles and gallantry award certificate.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Clyde-Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-19
Identifier
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Clyde-Smith, D
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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HALIFAX BOMBER’S TOUR
FROM OUR AERONAUTICAL CORRESPONDENT
The Handey [sic] Page Halifax bomber which has been making a tour of Rhodesia and South Africa has now returned to this country. The return journey from Capetown was made via Bulawayo, Ndola (where it was the first four-engined aircraft to have landed), Nairobi, Khartum, Cairo,[sic] and Rome. In all, the machine covered some 12,000 miles.
At Capetown demonstration flights were made with members of the S.A.A.F. as passengers. In addition to Government officials, some 1,000 members of the services were shown over the Halifax during its stay in South Africa.
The Halifax was manned by an R.A.F. crew under the command of Squadron Leader Clyde-Smith, D.S.O., D.F.C., who piloted it throughout the tour.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Halifax bomber tour
Description
An account of the resource
Newspaper article about Halifax on tour of Rhodesia and South Africa via Bulawayo, Ndola, Nairobi, Khartoum, Cairo and Rome. Mentions demonstration flights in South Africa and that the aircraft was commanded by Squadron Leader Clyde-Smith Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross.
Format
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One newspaper cutting
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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NClydeSmithD-190916-01
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Italy
Kenya
South Africa
Sudan
Zambia
Zimbabwe
Egypt--Cairo
Italy--Rome
Kenya--Nairobi
Sudan--Khartoum
Zambia--Ndola
Zimbabwe--Bulawayo
North Africa
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Steve Baldwin
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
Halifax
propaganda
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/575/8844/AGoodfellowN151106.1.mp3
e5ed08535ea015c12b77d649243806fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Goodfellow, Norman
N Goodfellow
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodfellow, N
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Norman Goodfellow (Royal Air Force). He flew a tour of operations as a navigator with 50 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NG. The Bomb Aimer was from Southern Ireland, Irish Free State so he couldn’t go home on leave. [laugh] And we all used to finish up in my home town of Wakefield, in Yorkshire.
DC. I’ll just halt you there, I’ll just introduce this. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Norman Goodfellow at his home. 6th of November 2015. If I keep looking down at this is to just see that it is still working so I am not being rude, that looks ok. One thing I am always interested in, what were you doing before you joined the RAF?
NG. I was an Apprentice Engineer and I finished up in the RAF because we were a reserved occupation, the only two Services open to us was Submarine Service or RAF Service and I wasn’t going under any water at that time so.
DC. As a reserved occupation could you have carried on doing what you were doing and not join the Services?
NG. Oh yeah in fact I should have done really.
DC. So in effect you volunteered to join the Air Force.
NG. As I say that was the only service open to me to get into any forces. I couldn’t go in the Army, I couldn’t go in the Navy except for Submarine Service. I don’t know why they made the distinction, I mean somebody with more ideas than me could do that. But eh finished up in the RAF in Aircrew generally speaking Aircrew I could have finished up as an eh, as an eh a Gunner or a anything But eh when it came to entr, entrance exam I passed with such good marks that I had a choice between a Pilot and a Navigator, or at that time they called it an Observer. And eh I couldn’t imagine sitting there driving an eh eh aeroplane for hours and hours on end I couldn’t have thought about anything more boring than that. So and eh I was a draught, eh a a a drafts, learning to be a draughtsman and eh I thought that will help me in my future life and that and do decent drawings so I plumped for a Navigator and eh they accepted me as a Navigator and we went from there.
DC. So what year would this have been then?
NG. That was, I was just old enough to go in I was born in 1923 so I was seventeen then 1930, 1940.
DC.1940.
NG. And as I say I had just reached the age of entry.
DC. So can you remember what you training involved what your first unit of training was?
NG. I was an Engineer.
DC. So once you joined the Air Force what unit did you join, was it?
NG. When I joined the Air Force I was working as an Apprentice Engineer, I joined as an Apprenticeship and we were actually on war work in fact I got so bored with it, I was what they called a Vertical Borer, that was a machine, a boring machine but it stood upright. And I was doing the turret plates that tanks turned their guns on. And when you have done three of these a day [laugh] you have nothing else to worry about eh.
DC. So actually you were in the Air Force, where did your training start there, was it an Operational Training Unit?
NG. When I went into the Air Force of course I went down to where all the eh Air Crew Training starts and that is eh ACRC in London and did my basic training there turn left turn right.
DC. Was this the one at Lords Cricket Ground?
NG. Yeah St Johns Wood.
DC. St Johns Wood yeah.
NG. Just outside the cricket ground, I forgot the name of the street, well main road it was out of London. And eh it was a good walk into London but the money to spend when we got there and eh it was ACRC, Air Crew Recruiting Centre. Then from there we were, as I say we were general Air Crew then. Then they made the selection of Pilots, Navigators or Wireless Operators or Gunners and eh.
DC. So what was your next unit after that then?
NG. After that I left there, where did I finish up eh, [pause] I should, I could have, oh I went up to Carlisle that’s it and eh, on Tiger Moths. I soloed on Tiger Moths but I still wanted to stick to my original choice of Navigator.
DC. So even though you’d chosen Navigator they still got you flying the Tiger Moths?
NG. Yeah, well everybody did whither they were Gunners or whatever did some training on Tiger Moths, it was a general training scheme. And eh then the selection came after Tiger Moths and I was offered Pilot training because I did me solo on a Tiger Moth but eh I opted for Navigation.
DC. And where did you go?
NG. I went to Canada to do some flying training as well [cough].
DC. So how long were you in Canada for?
NG. Oh, seven months and eh but that was Navigational Training as well and eh when I came back, where did we go next, we moved around that much it took some remembering.
DC. Syerston, Operational Training Unit.
NG. Oh yeah that’s right.
DC. OTU at Syerston.
NG. Operational in Lincolnshire, Operational Training Unit and eh we were Crewed up there we and the Pilots were the people that picked their own Crews out of the mixture what there was there. There was a mixture of Navigators, Bomb Aimers, Air Gunners, he already got his Air Gunner.
DC. So the Pilots basically found their own Crews.
NG. Yeah personal choice.
DC. Were you put in a big Hanger and.
NG. They would just come up to you and say ‘what is your name eh and do you fancy eh flying with me.’ You know I was approached by two or three different Pilots and this one came up to me and said, well I knew him, he was a New Zealander, he got it up here. And eh he introduced himself and by that time he already got his Radio Operator who was also a New Zealander. One comes from the North Island of New Zealand eh Wireless Operator comes from the North Island of eh New Zealand and Johnnie the Pilot came from the South Island. But eh apparently I didn’t know it at the time but found out that Johnnie was rather eh was well to do in New Zealand because they owned their own properties. Farmers Boy he was actually but eh he knew his stuff when it came to flying. And eh, eh the Wireless Operator eh he was a Wireless Operator on Shipping, went from New Zealand to the coast of America so he knew his trade. So eh the three of us got together and Johnnie said ‘Is there anyone you know that eh. Eh, we are looking now for a, a Bomb Aimer. Is there anyone you know in particular?’So I thought for a minute and there was this Irish Lad, he was from Southern Ireland and he couldn’t go home on leave.
DC. A neutral Country.
NG. Well he would have been kept in Ireland they wouldn’t have let him back to England. But he had come to London to live with his Mother, his Aunt in London so he could get in the Air Force. I though the were keen so we, we, we selected him for the Wireless Operator and the Gunners all sorted themselves out really eh. The Rear Gunner he was a New Zealander and Mid Upper Gunner was eh a Lancashire lad came from Boston eh.
DC.Bolton.
NG. Anyway he came from Lancashire. So that was more or less the Crew from then on we all trained together.
DC. Then at that point did you go out to your Squadron then?
NG. Oh no,no we were a long way from that my goodness we wor.
DC. What was the next?
NG. Oh we had to go to eh eh Bombing Training first of all eh doing dummy runs on Lake Windermere and all that.
DC. So what type of aircraft were you flying during the training?
NG. In training we flew in Ansons, the old Anson and then we went onto eh, we didn’t go straight onto Lancasters.
DC. Wellingtons.
NG. Eh yeah that’s right Wimpies, Wellingtons and then we went onto a Lancaster Squadron ‘cause I always remember seeing pictures of them and eh and Johnnie did as well, the Pilot ‘cause we were all mixed friends[?]. He couldn’t go home to Australia, New Zealand rather for holidays; he wouldn’t have got back in time. So they used to come up to Yorkshire with me before. When we were on Squadron we all went to Yorkshire my Mother was busy finding names. Who could put two up, two up, two up to fit us all in and eh but we all stuck together right through the thirty Operations that we did.
DC. So your training was all on Wellingtons ?
NG. Johnnie and I trained first of all on eh the old twin winged two seater, I forgot what the hell they called them now but the others all trained on Wellingtons.
DC. And at this point you now moved to 50 Squadron.
NG. No, no this was still Training Command. We didn’t move onto an Operational Squadron until we had been through [cough] several series of training. Bombing Course, Navigational Course the lot.
DC. Heavy Conversion Unit.
NG. Yeah Heavy Conversion Unit that’s where we converted from twin engined Blenheims to four engined aircraft.
DC. Do you remember which Heavy Conversion Unit you were with?
NG. 15, Number 15 Conversion Unit where was oh yeah it was just outside Lincoln, what were it called, I had it on the tip of me tongue. I know it was within walking distance of Lincoln, five miles oh.
DC. And this was the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. Sorry
DC. And this was the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. This was the Heavy Conversion Unit yeah.
DC. So what type of aircraft were at the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. We started on Wellington of course and then we went onto eh Lincolns no Lincolns came after the Lancaster. [pause]
DC. Wasn’t the Halifax was it?
NG. Is that me log book?
DC. Yes.
NG. Oh, always a Gentleman.
DC. Probably sort it out.
NG. Might tell them more than I can tell [laugh] probably will.
DC It’s a history book, so there’s the Ansons, Wellingtons there, no that’s 16 OTU there right.
NG. I can’t remember what the Heavy Conversion Unit was. Still at 16 OTU, 1654 Conversion Unit, I can’t for the life of me remember where that was.
DC. So it says here you were on Stirlings.
NG. Yes, yes,yes.
DC. So Heavy Conversion Unit you are flying Stirlings, flying on Stirlings, what did you think of the Stirlings?
NG. Oh they were good Aircraft, a bit slow.
DC. Bit slow [laugh] high off the ground, big undercarriage, ok then it the Stirlings. Eh so it is Number 5 LFS, Lancaster Finishing School.
NG. Yeah.
DC. So that would be your first experience of the Lancaster was it the LFS.
NG. Yeah.
DC. What was your impression of the Lancaster after the Stirling.
NG. Well I think the Lanc was a bit more spacious than the Stirling, they were both good aircraft the Stirling was a bit crowded.
DC. So then we go to August 1944 when you have joined 50 Squadron.
NG. Oh yeah, that can tell you more than I can tell you [probably referring to his log book].
DC. Was this at Skellingthorpe.
NG. Skellingthorpe, that’s right, five miles from Lincoln.
DC. What was your impression of Skellingthorpe when you got there?
NG. It was a nice open place, lovely, plenty of room there. Yes it was grand and Lincoln was walking distance yeah it were ok there.
DC. It is a housing estate now, it is a big housing estate now. So did you used to walk into Lincoln when you were off duty?
NG. More often than using the bus yeah, there is a camp bus used to go but if you missed that you had to wait on the local bus and I think it was only once every hour from Skellingthorpe the village into Lincoln and the last one at night used to leave about eight o’clock or something ridiculous [laugh] when you were in the RAF you couldn’t get back at eight o’clock at night they would think you were daft.
DC. So what did you used to do when you were off duty in Lincoln.
NG. I used to come home and eh I had a motor bike later on. I used to come home on me motor bike.
DC. So the Pilot named here is Marris.
NG. Johnnie Marris.
DC. So you flew all your Operations with the same Crew?
NG. No, one I went with eh the eh .
DC. Jimmie Flynn.
NG. The Leader Squadron Leader Flynn it was.
DC. Oh have got that, the first of November.
NG. Yeah, he recently died.
DC. Ok that’s a shame. That was an Operation to Homburg?
NG. Well it says it there [?] Don’t ask me where on what night [little banter].
DC. Since when does a Navigator know where he was. Oh yes so how many Operations did you do altogether then?
NG. Thirty two altogether, thirty to Germany and two to Norway.
DC. And they were all at night were they? They were all night Operations.
NG. Oh no not all of them there were some day light Operations, mostly night. Towards the end there were more daylight raids for obvious reasons. [pause]
DC. So was it quite a difficult job then if you were Navigating and obviously the aircraft is being shot at and it is dark?
NG. It’s not funny at all I tell you, well it is something you have just got to put up with. I thought I was one of the luckiest one of the Crew because I had got something to do and occupy myself. But these poor blighters that were sat there in the back in the rear turret, mid upper turret they could see all the flashes that added to the scare mongering sort of thing and I couldn’t. Could hear the big bangs yes but eh I couldn’t see anything.
DC. So was it exactly the same aircraft you flew all the time. Were you allocated you own Lancaster.
NG. No.
DC. ‘Cause I notice they are all the same VNO.
NG. When the Pilot got his aircraft that one were that’s it VNN.
DC. No it was Oboe yours Oboe VNO Oboe.
NG. Sorry.
DC. Oboe, yours was Oboe.
Unknown Voice. Oboe that was the callsign, N Nan was the famous one that done over a hundred trips and featured in all the publicity shots and wartime photographs.
DC. And you have actually done an air test in this one VNN.
NG. Oh yeah.
DC. I have seen the photos.
Unknown Voice. I mean it was just luck wasn’t it, some didn’t come back from the first op some didn’t come back from the twenty ninth with one to do. So it was a sheer lottery.
DC. After you had done your Tour how did you feel then about the thirty or so Operations once your Tour was over?
NG. When me first tour was over, I was, I was just going back to the Squadron when they declared the Armistice. I think I was on boating[?] leave when the news came back that the Germans had surrendered.
DC. How did that make you feel at that point knowing it was over?
NG. Relieved [laugh] knowing it I think if I do remember rightly, I am not sure about that night. I think I finished up drunk that night.
DC. You deserved it.
NG. Quite drunk [laugh] Oh yeah I remember now we were in Lincoln that night and eh we were in. What were the name of that pub at the bottom of that street, leading up to the Lawns Hospital. Anyway it is just of the Main Street of Lincoln just underneath the bridge. And eh we were in the pub, the news broke out they declared Peace, the war was over. When we came out of course, Lincoln was all lit up, “What is happening here?” Everybody were dancing in the street anyway we staggered back to Camp and it was about two in the morning. There again all the hut lights were on curtains were down, everybody was just about blotto I think [laugh] including us. It was, had to be paid for next morning, had to clear up and sober up, yeah it was a good night.
DC. And did you remain in the Air Force after the war then.
NG. For a short while.
Unknown Voice. You went to Egypt didn’t you ‘cause the war in Japan was still continuing so.
NG. I was for a short while when I got there. When I first got there, I went to Palestine first and eh then I went to Malta. Then I was on Operational from Malta but only round the Mediterranean it weren’t anything serious and I finished up in GHQ Cairo as an Instructor.The young ladies who were putting all the notices up on the board there. So and So posted from duty back to New Zealand, Australia, India wherever they come from, there were a big board on the wall. This one were nearly crying, she said ‘I can’t find this one.’ She had been looking for about two hours and she weren’t talking to me, she was talking to the lady in charge of postings called, column. And I heard her say “What is it?” and she said ‘Morris’ she said ‘But I can’t find his number.’ Several Morris’s ‘But I can’t find his number.’ Then she read off a number, she read of a heap of numbers. When she got to one I stopped her and said “Try Marris.” She looked at me as if I had gone daft but, so she went through all the cards again “Marris?” I said that’s right that’s his name. She looked at me in amazement she said ‘You know all these off by heart?’ I said “Off course I do.” She had been struggling for hours to find this Morris. [laugh].
DC. So did you remain in touch with your Crew after the war?
NG. That day when I knew where he was and eh, and eh he was on his way back to New Zealand then I found out he was staying overnight in Cairo. And eh to my big surprise he was married. I thought I am going to say hello to him and shake his hand and say cheerio again, we had already said cheerio. So I went to the Hotel where he was registered and low and behold the girl he was with, he had married was a Nurse from the Lawns Hospital in Lincoln who had been my girlfriend. It were a bit embarrassing he didn’t know at the time but, [laugh]. Johnnie took her back to Australia, to New Zealand with him.
DC. Did you manage to stay in touch with the Crew after the war?
NG. Oh yes for quite a while, then sadly they went one by one, yeah.
DC. So how do you feel now looking back over seventy odd years your time in Bomber Command and the [unclear].
NG. Absolutely wasted.
DC. Really?
NG. What was achieved, we could have spent all that money and all them years making a better World than it is today. It was a waste of time, a waste of man power, I don’t think they will get anywhere with war, they will have to find a way to settle the differences somehow or other.
DC. I am hoping you know in the future people will be listening to this and what you said there and take some note of it. OK I think we’ll stop there thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Norman Goodfellow
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-06
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodfellowN151106
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:30:51 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Norman Goodfellow, born in Wakefield, in 1923. Before the war he worked as an apprentice engineer. Joining the RAF at seventeen he was offered the choice of Pilot or Navigator. Although Norman chose to be a Navigator he initially trained as a Pilot on Tiger Moth aircraft on which he soloed. He was a posted to Canada as a trainee Navigator,then posted back to the OTU at Syerston where he met his Crew. Norman completed his training flying in Ansons, Wellingtons, Blenheims and Stirlings before converting to the Lancaster. Posted to 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe he completed thirty two Operations. He talks about his social life in Lincoln, the aircraft he flew and celebrations on Armistice day. Then posted to the Middle East he met up with his old Pilot in Cairo who was returning to New Zealand. Norman kept in touch with his Crew until sadly they all passed away.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
Egypt
England--Lincolnshire
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Blenheim
Lancaster
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Syerston
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/586/8855/PHorryMA1601.2.jpg
a3a6378973a7fbef9b4fe5ac6856674f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/586/8855/AHorryM160819.2.mp3
0682cfe82dfdf58654793dcb33e77860
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Horry, Margaret
M Horry
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Horry, MA
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. An oral history interview with Margaret Horry, and her brother, Gordon Prescott's log book (1582098 Royal Air Force), documents and family photographs. She discusses her brothers' and husband's service during the war. Gordon Prescott flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 12 Squadron and was lost without trace 7 January 1945. <br /><br />Additional information on Gordon Prescott is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/119000/">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Margaret Horry and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2016-08-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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RP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre the interviewer is Rob Pickles the interviewee is Margaret Horry the interview is taking place in Mrs Horry’s home in Exmouth Devon on the 19th August 2016, Nina Pickles is also present. Good morning Margaret thank you for allowing me into your home for this interview could I start by asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your experiences in the Second World War.
MH: Well I was born in Spalding, parents had a sweet shop and Gordon lived at home, Bob left home when he was seventeen so I can’t really remember him at home, Gordon worked for Spalding Free Press desperate to get into the RAF in fact he had his own Morse Code Morse Sender Key and he used to send messages to the young man next door so obviously he wanted to be a wireless op so eventually he went off and my first memories are hearing wave after wave of Lancs, Wellingtons et cetera going across the back of our house out on ops one night mother said ‘I wonder how many will come back?’ and of course one night Gordon didn’t come back he flew with 12th Squadron from Wickenby next day eighth, ninth of January knock at the back door little telegram boy we had them in those days with a small envelope father took it in mother went to him they sat at the they sat at the dining table opened the envelope silence they told me and I left them I said ‘I’m going for a walk’ father said ‘don’t tell anybody’ [tearful] and so I left them to their silent tears and walked for miles tears streaming down my face I remember um the Wizard of Oz film Somewhere Over The Rainbow so I thought one day I’ll meet Gordon at the end of the rainbow so perhaps it won’t be so long [very emotional] we didn’t hear anything other than he was missing. Forty six I think presumed killed then all his aftermath came father didn’t reply got a reminder from Inland Revenue [laughs] so that was Gordon gone. Next RAF connection of course was my husband he was ten years nearly ten years older than I like all of them he didn’t talk really about what he’d done had a small connection with 9th Squadron although he didn’t do so many ops with them did an awful lot with 106 out of Metheringham had one bad raid he did say think it was St. Leu d’Esserent only two got back typical RAF he said ‘we had an enormous breakfast ‘cos they’d catered for more to get home’, he flew all the time with Bill Williams who was then flight lieutenant then squadron leader so they moved to Bardney lots of practice then off to Russia for Tirpitz their plane was US so they didn’t actually bomb the Tirpitz from there but that’s where he got his DFM for um helping the navigator because conditions weather were dreadful I had to smile to myself when I saw the citation because tell him to go somewhere two miles away and he’d get lost so [laughs] it was a bit odd seeing he spent such a long time helping to get to Russia, he was the only crew member to stay on for ops, Bill Williams had two children, the others were married and Bill was older, so he went to Singapore with 50 Squadron for tyber force [sic] they were going to bomb precision bomb Japan but of course they dropped the atom bomb so they didn’t but I think seeing the state of the POW’s which they were bringing home particularly those in Changi stayed with him really all his life we had a friend who had been a POW and they became great friends at the golf club each respected each other I think so what next. Arthur had another brother older than him who was a regular he joined in ‘35 having been a footman in London I can’t imagine Frank as a footman at all [laughs] but he joined up and was at Mildenhall and he was in 9 Squadron he was a gunner he won the DFM for in the citation shooting down two German aircraft took part in the Heligoland fiasco as it became known he did probably a whole tour with 9 before leaving, he used to come to see us after he’d left the RAF ‘cos he didn’t come home until 1954 he had been flying in Scotland towards the end of the war instructing ferrying naval people all around the place, took part in the Berlin airlift, friends with Freddie Laker but fortunately didn’t invest with him [laughs], came out of the RAF in ‘54 then took his civil pilot’s licence which is not bad going for somebody who left school when he was fourteen.
RP: That’s very [unclear] so who did he fly for as a civilian?
MH: I don’t know one time he was flying from Bournemouth to Paris didn’t like that ‘no sooner take off then you land’ he said.
RP: [Laughs]
MH: Then at one time he was carrying oil pipes in Iraq et cetera when they were laying oil then he was with Bahamas Airways and he stayed in the Bahamas.
RP: I wonder why [laughs].
MH: He got into property development and came back owned a house in the Isle of Man obviously for tax purposes ‘cos he died in ’80, 82.
RP: But?
MH: So left an awful lot of money [laughs].
RP: Yes so a long flying career though.
MH: Yes.
RP: So to go back to Frank on 9 Squadron you said he did the full tour which a lot of people never did did he ever feel himself lucky to have done the full tour did he ever talk about that?
MH: No, I think he had the same attitude as Arthur that’s not going to happen to them if you think it you will and Gordon was always doubtful I always remember Arthur saying ‘that’s no good if you think it you’ll go’.
RP: So what you said Gordon had always wanted to join the RAF what provoked the RAF was there no RAF history in the family?
MH: No no none at all.
RP: He just decided that was for him. Did Arthur ever say why he picked the RAF and not the army.
MH: I think he did because of Frank.
RP: He just followed in his brother’s footsteps?
MH: Yes he not idolised Frank but um huge connection between them they were very similar Frank never married but always had a bevy of model type girls [laughs] surround him we were very very fon fond of him he’d just turn up at the house I remember one day in Cambridge I’d cleaned the house from top to bottom everything dumped in the kitchen, I had a six month old and a four year old, and there was Frank he was very particular but he didn’t mind the kitchen being a mess, or Sheffield picks up the phone ‘I’m at the station Margaret think I’ll get a taxi’ he just arrived.
RP: But because you liked him you didn’t mind?
MH: No.
RP: So did he ever look back at his RAF career or was it something just in the past?
MH: No.
RP: He never.
MH: No.
RP: He never spoke about Bomber Command?
MH: No.
RP: I just wondered the two of them how they felt when they didn’t get did they ever mention not getting a medal at the end of the war ‘cos that’s always been a sticking point hasn’t it?
MH: Yes um Arthur thought it was very unfair fighter boys got recognised bombers were vilified and everybody brings Dresden but Hamburg got it first and what about bombing all the Germans bombing neutral Rotterdam um it was not fair and Harris took that’s what upset Arthur all the other navy army chiefs were recognised Harris wasn’t that hurt, he’d met Harris he never said what raid they were going on but Harris came and addressed the squadron finishing by saying ‘goodbye lads don’t suppose I shall see many of you again’ but I don’t know which which raid it was [laughs].
RP: Yes.
MH: And when they came back and oh another thing that annoyed him 9 bombed the salt pan which 617 didn’t ‘cos only one got through the captain of that one of 617 feels peeved ‘cos he’s never mentioned so did moan.
RP: Yes.
MH: And he was never mentioned and of course the programme on the radio um about the dams they never mention the salt that 617 didn’t damage and never mention 9 had to go with Tallboy but they dropped the level of water increased the width of the dam there were twenty four ack-ack guns and balloons the report was that it was simple raid but Arthur did talk about that and he thought it was a bit dicey take, no, no Winko had a hit, Arthur had a hit, and of course it wasn’t breached.
RP: No it’s a very solid dam unfortunately ‘cos it’s earth it’s earth and stone, so -
MH: Yes.
RP: It’s very hard to damage.
MH: They increased stones.
RP: You mentioned before that Arthur was injured on one raid what what happened there?
MH: Yes. Um it’s in one report from.
RP: He was hit by shrapnel?
MH: Shrapnel he was bombing well in bombing position shrapnel came through hit him in the chest so he called ‘skipper I’ve been hit’ so Pretty Johns the flight engineer came down to him pulled his jacket et cetera and pulled out this red hot piece of metal all my dear husband could say was ‘you clot I only got this shirt out of stores this morning’ [laughs].
RP: How badly was he injured? [laughs]
MH: Um oh a plaster the next night nothing happened he still did had the scar from it.
RP: So it wasn’t as deep as you imagine it was just a piercing rather than a a sort of.
MH: Yes hmm hmm
RP: Intrusion?
MH: Penetrated.
RP: Still it can’t have been very nice.
MH: But he swears having been in bombing position a voice called out ‘Chucky’ which was a schoolboy nickname the voice was Mr. Headman Hamilton a teacher so Arthur thought naturally he turned to see where this voice was coming from if he hadn’t have turned shrapnel would have hit him straight in the face and killed him.
RP: And he never really knew where the voice came from?
MH: No and nobody knew the nickname ‘Chucky’ when it left school that was it so very very strange.
RP: How strange is that.
MH: [laughs] very definite about that he was.
RP: Did Arthur ever sort of give you an opinion which he squadron he preferred that he was on did he have a favourite?
MH: Well I think 9 he
RP: Because the two of them served on 9 Squadron didn’t they at different times?
MH: Yes don’t know why so he said he did less with 9 then 106 but um didn’t say much apart from that time when only two got back and the whole village was in mourning he said, we’ve been to Metheringham um quite eerie.
RP: Was there is there a cemetery at Metheringham I think there is in the village a small cemetery?
MH: No there’s a little memorial garden there and if you come out go a mile down the road you get to the second runway.
RP: Oh right.
MH: At the side of that there’s a little garden and a plaque in the seat and there’s a runway straight in front of you and I sat there got a most peculiar feeling.
RP: Yes yes ‘cos people have taken off from there.
MH: Yes yes.
RP: The ghosts, but yes I think 9 Squadron has had quite a reputation, what did he think of the Lancaster did he ever give you his opinion of the aircraft as such?
MH: Devil to get in to down to where he had to go to his office as he called it but fantastic I mean they got home on two engines they got shot up lots of times as Ron Harvey said ‘it’s quite strange to see bullets going from through the fuselage from one side to the other’ [laughs].
RP: And not be in the way.
MH: It was yes, one raid they were chased by Messerschmitt and they’re being shot up Bill dived over the sea and a little Scottish voice came over ‘skipper if you don’t get up soon I’ll get wet feet’ [laughs] and that was um um Sandy rear gunner.
RP: Oh yes but I suppose Arthur was in the bomb aimer position he’d have the best view really of the ground?
MH: I I yes I think.
RP: He sort of was very close [laughs]?
MH: Well forgot [unclear] Harvey navigator who holds forth quite bit but as Arthur said he [emphasis] didn’t see anything I think that’s what got through to Arthur being a bomb aimer he saw more than anybody, skipper, he and rear gunner would see the most of the damage they were doing, what was coming at them, the flak, the fighters, so those two positions were I think the nastiest in terms of what they could see.
RP: But when he and Frank met up did they ever discuss their experience?
MH: No.
RP: They never sort of looked back at all?
MH: No.
RP: Did they go and see the Dambusters film [laughs].
MH: No! It was strange one night there was a film on not Dambusters ‘cos we didn’t watch that but another one and what else Danger by Moonlight?
RP: No, “Ill Met by Moonlight” it’s a different one is that.
MH: It was a black and white.
RP: An Elstree black and white probably.
MH: And it was on the television and it was a raid, bomb aimer featured, skipper, Arthur sat there and suddenly said ‘we don’t want to watch that do we?’ so no switched off it was getting to him.
RP: Yes yes ‘cos it’s taken a long long time to get people to talk about it.
MH: Yes.
RP: Because we didn’t understand the horror of it all and the feelings they had in losing so many of their friends.
MH: Yes.
RP: I think er that’s one thing. Can we go back to yourself then can you remember when the war finally ended where you were and what you were doing?
MH: Oh still in Spalding at High School um I think the day I took the entrance exam to Spalding High School went to a wedding reception held in the sergeants mess when RSM Lord of the Parachute Regiment got married to a Spalding girl that of course was before Arnhem because I don’t know which regiment John was in but they were confined to barracks so often before long it got to be a joke but eventually they went and of course it was a bit of a disaster, quite a lot had married Spalding girls, Spalding felt it dreadfully, John Lord went on he was very famous with the Parachute Regiment for organising the POW Camp even the Camp CO knocked on his door and he when he came home he was RSM at Sandhurst but I remember that because they were camped on playing fields at the Grammar School.
RP: Oh were they.
MH: But Spalding I did go out at night, mother and father didn’t, lots of people, lots of ATS girls, Polish officers and some men from somewhere all celebrating, but then of course there was still Japan several people still had sons, husbands who were hear it on the news if they were alive and of course the war having ended in ‘45 it just seemed to go on and on because of rationing, I don’t know when it was ’43, ‘44 we were bombed our wonderful department store which was all white and gilt and Father Christmas used to stand on the balcony that was totally demolished, and we did go in the shelter that night our shop was the end of what had been a row of cottages with a single roof right along a reed and slate roof and we were at the beginning another shop on the corner an incendiary dropped on right through the roof so course we would all have gone up but it landed in the toilet pan [laughs] and went out [laughs].
RP: Oh right [laughs] oh that’s a good place to go precision bombing.
MH: And fifty yards away um Penningtons Carpet window back entrance that was totally demolished so it got very near to whether we’d got a home to go to.
RP: How many times did you have actually go down into the shelter during the war then?
MH: Oh twice.
RP: Just the twice?
MH: It was it didn’t go down it was next door to the Police Station which is still there it looks like a castle two turrets and that was the Police Station and the air raid shelter down the side it was an oblong brick built flat roofed shelter [laughs].
RP: Not ideal then.
MH: No, just across the road from it was the Liberal Club built eighteen hundred something that was totally demolished, at school we had the rounded shelters so we had air raid drill and this would be beginning of the war when I was at infants it was smelly [laughs] I remember that and er I know once or twice perhaps they were perhaps they were trying to bomb the guns and searchlights stations because something must have got near because mother and I sat underneath the oak dining table, which I’ve now got, which had a bar across the middle underneath which one could sit on, and er no we did go in the shelter twice.
RP: So you mentioned about all the siblings and Arthur and Frank all the family did they all survive the ones that were in the various forces they all came home?
MH: Yes yes there was I mean Arthur was Bomber Command, Frank was Bomber Command, Fred was Coastal Command for a long time in the Azores he was a warrant officer and got the DFC, George the eldest joined the army in 1935 in tanks he was in Egypt when I think due for leave when war was declared.
RP: Oh dear.
MH: Went right through Alamein, Italy.
RP: And survived.
MH: And survived.
RP: He did well if he was in the Tank Regiment.
MH: Yes.
RP: He did very well.
MH: He was the well not glorified but the one the officers liked to have the eternal experienced sergeant.
RP: Yes [laughs].
MH: He you know he had a mention in dispatches because a tank what he called had a brew up hit so he got his crew out they were being machine gunned from the top of a dune and he told them all to crawl towards the machine gun ‘cos trajectory they were under it which took some thinking.
RP: Yes yes not the sort of thing you’d want to crawl to.
MH: He was a very very had a very dry sense of humour.
RP: It’s good that they all survived I think we’ve covered most of their careers um is there anything else you think we need to know about Bomber Command that you might have missed a quick recollection I think we’ve got a lot of we’ve certainly got a lot of um memorabilia to look at and er I think that’s been so interesting I’m sorry that the emotion of it got to you but I can understand how sad it must be the memories are still there for your brother but I think he would be pleased that we are still remembering him.
MH: Yes.
RP: And I think and this he would be pleased.
MH: This is it he felt neglected.
RP: And I think Frank and Arthur and all the others would be pleased that at last.
MH: Yes.
RP: Maybe too late for them but
MH: And it’s being passed on.
RP: That’s right.
MH: A friend said ‘oh but that was so long ago’ Arthur used to say that ‘oh that was in the past’ um but my friend said ‘oh but that’s history’ I said ‘yes and history must not be forgotten’.
RP: And must not be repeated even.
MH: No.
RP: Anyway Margaret I’d just like to say thank you for that and it’s been lovely talking to you.
MH: Thank you.
RP: Thank you for agreeing to invite us here thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Margaret Horry
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rod Pickles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-19
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHorryM160819, PHorryMA1601
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:37:00 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret Horry was born in Spalding. She remembers aircraft taking off going on operations, and retells wartime stories of her relatives. Arthur served in Bomber Command as a bomb aimer. Frank was also in Bomber Command. He joined the Royal Air Force as an air gunner at RAF Mildenhall (9 Squadron), gained a Distinguished Flying Medal, and served until 1954. After that he worked for Bahamas Airways. Fred served in Coastal Command, was stationed at the Azores as a warrant officer, and was eventually awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.
George joined the Army in 1935 in a tank regiment, serving in Egypt at Al El-Alamein, and in Italy. He was also mentioned in dispatches.
Gordon worked for the Spalding Free Press, in his free time he was a keen radio amateur wishing to become wireless operator. He joined the Royal Air Force and served with 12 Squadron at RAF Wickenby. Margaret reminisces receiving a telegram claiming he was missing, the subsequent notification of death and the whole family grieving. Margaret’s husband Arthur, was ten years her senior - he served in the Royal Air Force with 9 Squadron and 106 Squadron from RAF Metheringham. He took part in an operation to Saint-Leu-d'Esserent with Flight Lieutenant Bill Williams, then was posted to RAF Bardney practising for Tirpitz operations. Gained his Distinguished Flying Medal, he went to Singapore with 50 Squadron as part of the Tiger Force. He married Margaret after the war. Margaret also elaborates on the bombing of Dresden and discusses lack of recognition for Bomber command veterans.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Azores
Norway
Singapore
Egypt
France
France--Creil
Italy
North Africa
Egypt--Alamayn
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
British Army
Civilian
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
106 Squadron
12 Squadron
50 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
grief
killed in action
memorial
perception of bombing war
RAF Bardney
RAF Metheringham
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Wickenby
Tirpitz
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/589/8858/AHughesWR150713.2.mp3
18e37bacec69f09e545be17b9d8cdabd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hughes, Bob
William Robert Hughes
W R Hughes
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hughes, WR
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Bob Hughes (751133, 137124 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 149, 50 and 23 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: So, this is now recording, and my name is Nigel Moore, I’m the interviewer, and I’m interviewing Flight Lieutenant Bob Hughes on the 13th of July. I’m in Mr Hughes’ home in North Hants. So, Mr Hughes, would you like to tell us something about your upbringing and your life before you joined the RAF?
BH: I was only a, a ordinary seniors school and I never went, never passed Eleven Plus, so I went to the, one of the senior productive schools and then I, I passed, I suppose, most things, you know, and when the opportunity came, I took [unclear] said we had a – I’d been working as a coachbuilder, or in, with a coachbuilding firm, and we were, were making Rolls Royce – taking Rolls Royce chassis in and making them into finished cars. And while I was there, we had a fellow named Serge Kalinsky, he was a Scandinavian diplomat and he started swearing and said ‘There’s gonna be a bloody war any time now! Within the next few months, I guarantee it, in the next few months!’ So, knowing that I – my father had had a rough time in the army, in the trenches, I thought ‘ Well, no army for me, I’m gonna join the air force now,’ because Sywell was a handy aerodrome, so I went and joined weekend air force. And, once I was in there and the war was declared, naturally I was transferred straight away into the main RAF. And, erm –
NM: So, you joined a reserve squadron, did you?
BH: That’s right, RAF Volunteer Reserves. And I don’t know the na – well, I think it was 23 Squadron that I went to, which was when – during the Battle of Britain.
NM: So, how – can you describe your training, your flying training?
BH: Flying training?
NM: What were you training on? What were you flying?
BH: Well, mostly, in Ansons and, well, you know, I, I’m terrible at trying to remember the names of these aircraft tonight, but the – oh dear, two, two, two engined, the planes that we flew in, and – oh, I can’t think of the, the names, have I got it in here at all? [sound of turning pages]
NM: Not to worry, what about the training itself?
BH: Well, this was to go in these aircraft and did a few bail-outs practices and in the, in the, oh dear, in the yards of some big firms where they, they’d got escape possibility there, so we tried, tried those out several times. [background noises, turning pages]
NM: So, you say you flew in the Battle of Britain?
BH: Yes.
NM: What –
BH: That was in Blenheims.
NM: Can you de – can you talk –
BH: Now, this is the thing: quite often, when the Battle of Britain is mentioned, it’s either – what’s the two [unclear] the two aircraft that were always noticed? I think every time they mention these two aircraft, I think, how about the Night Shifts? ‘Cause I flew in, in the, in the Night Shift, and the aircraft we flew in wasn’t – oh dear, I’m terrible at names, I’m a terrible, terrible person to interview, really, because my memory is absolutely shocking. Blenheim, yes, but [pause] these, these were the usual things that we flew in those days, Ansons and Blenheims.
NM: So, can you describe the role that you played in the Battle of Britain flying these Blenheims?
BH: Well, I was a wireless operator/air gunner, and of course, in the, in those aircraft, you could picture everything, what am I talking about? Got a picture here [background noises].
NM: Yep, there’s the Blenheim.
BH: That’s – do you rec – do you recognise the one?
NM: Mr Hughes is pointing out a Mark 1 Blenheim.
BH: Mark 1 Blenheim, yeah, that’s right, yeah.
NM: ‘S’ right, and you were –
BH: And we had a, we had a turret on the top.
NM: And that’s where you were.
BH: When I flew later, in, in the big aircraft, the four-engine aircraft – they’re all here [background noises] when I flew later in the Wellington – that one’s the Lancaster, that is the Dambuster, they’ve got no turret on there but we, where we flew in the Lancasters, we had a turret, you see but previously, during the Battle of Britain, it was on, on the twin-engine aircraft.
NM: So, when you flew the Blenheims during the Battle of Britain, were you on bombing missions, and what – if so, what were your targets?
BH: Well, it, we were on defence.
NM: On defence?
BH: Defence patrol, up and down from the south coast up to, up the Thames Estuary, most of the time. [pause, sound of turning pages]
NM: And this was – were you called the Night Shift?
BH: The Night Shift, yes. There we are, there’s the aircraft. And that’s the flew – the pilot I flew with most of the time, this is Alan Gowarth [?] and that was, yes, and all Blenheims.
NM: So, this was Number 23 Squadron, night –
BH: 23 Squadron, night fighter squadron, yes.
NM: And can you describe your operations flying for 23 Squadron?
BH: Well –
NM: In the Blenheim?
BH: It was a, a patrol, up and down from the south coast up the Thames, the Thames Estuary, keeping a guard on things to the starboard, you know, any incoming aircraft, and we, we had quite a few that we, we followed, and went and dived down with them but we didn’t actually have a contact. [Pause] This first one, yeah apart from anything else, we had anti-aircraft cooperation, searchlight cooperation, going backwards and forwards along the Thames Estuary. That’s what they were: night defensive patrols. And that was, that’s the fella, fella that I flew with most of the time.
NM: So, you encountered a few contacts but didn’t actually –
BH: We didn’t see anybody shot, shot down but we, we fired at them and we saw the bullets, you know, sort of going their direction but didn’t see anything falling down, not then.
NM: And what type of aircraft were you engaging?
BH: It was a Blenheim. Oh, I don’t know; well, they were twin, twin-engined aircraft, yeah. I can’t –
NM: Okay.
BH: Think of the name. [sound of turning pages] I’ve got a picture.
NM: So after the 23 Squadron, how did you move to – can you describe how you moved from Fighter Command to Bomber Command?
BH: Well, at the time, they were losing a lot of crews and aircraft and crews in, in Bomber Command, and so they were asking for volunteers and I volunteered to – went to Number 9 Bomber Squadron, which was at Honington, but I only did one air test with them, and then I was asked if I would volunteer and go to one, 149 Squadron, which was at Mildenhall, and that’s where I did most of the bombing trips that I did, up to, up to seventy-three, but they weren’t all to Germany. A lot – we had a spell over in the Middle East, and it was Benghazi that we were bombing then.
NM: So, the start of your operational life with 149 Squadron –
BH: 149, yes.
NM: Was that –
BH: Mildenhall.
NM: At Mildenhall.
BH: Yes.
NM: And –
BH: And we were –
NM: And how did you – can you describe how you met your crew and got a crew together?
BH: No, only a sort of friendly meeting and you like the look of somebody and who you think was, was genuine. This first fellow we went – I flew with was a Squadron Leader Heather, and we went to Wilhelmshaven, [unclear] class cruisers and we were, we were bombing all around it, when this – oh, we went there again another night, repeat, repeat. I tell you what, when we first, when we first went there, they, they took us to canal, canals, and we got to aim in the canal with the mines, and mind you, was such a narrow mine, margin, and having such a small tar – item, when we got back home, we told them how difficult it was, so we suggested ‘Why not bomb it instead of just putting mines there?’ So they sent us back the next night to, to do that. That was Wilhelmshaven.
NM: So, at this point, you were flying Wellingtons?
BH: Wellingtons, yes.
NM: And this was in nineteen-forty –
BH: 1949, February ’49.
NM: Forty – 1941?
BH: Ah, no, no, beg your pardon.
NM: Yes.
BH: Yes, ’41, yes.
NM: So, can you describe squadron life on 149 Bomber Command at Mil – Mildenhall?
BH: Well, it was just –
NM: What was life like?
BH: Just a friendly get-together, you know, I’m ninety, nearly ninety-five now and I was twenty, twenty then, nineteen or twenty. So, you know, to remember exactly what we did, we got friendly; whoever we met, we made friends with and wanted to know how we got on.
NM: Did you go out for nights out around Mildenhall? What was – what were they like?
BH: Yes, yes, but, you know, just a drink here and there and, but nothing to really note.
NM: And what about your crew? Do you have particular memories of your crew?
BH: Yes, I think I, quite honestly, having done so many and for such a long period, long number of ops, I reckon I was very lucky picking the, or matching up with a good set of wonderful pilots. You see, each of the pilots I flew with were absolutely wonderful; they seemed to go to the target and did the business and get back, no messing and no wandering about all over Germany.
NM: And how about the rest of the crew? Were you a close group?
BH: Yes, yes, I think, generally speaking it was with the naviga – with the observer, or navigator, as they were then, more than anything, and because with the navigator, it was a question of, when we got over the target, sort of the geography of the place. I remember one of the things, one of the worst op we went on was Essen, and the geography of that place was so – we could spot it out as easy as anything. [Pause] But then later on, we did a lot of coast, coastal things like Wilhelmshaven, bombing the cruisers there, they, they took [unclear] class cruisers up the, up the, the fjords.
NM: Why was Essen such a bad target?
BH: Well, being an ammunition manufacturing place, I believe it was very heavily defended because of that. I mean, it was a manufacturer of, manufacturer of explosives and suchlike, and we seemed to cruise around it quite a lot, and anyhow, I was always telling the skipper, ‘Such-and-such is at the, on the starboard side,’ or, you know, ‘We’ve got to turn a little bit to the port to get this thing.’ That was on a reserve flight, 149 Squadron, and then I went to a reserve flight at Stradishall where they were preparing to get crews to go out to the Middle East, and then I had a spell in the Middle East.
NM: So, just back on your bombing raids here, over Essen and other German targets, you were giving instructions to the pilot –
BH: Oh yes, yes!
NM: To help him to do what?
BH: Yes, notifying where the canals are shooting off, to the south or the, the west, you know, that sort of thing. On very sunny [?] nights, the, the water whether it was a river or a canal, you could spot it that much easier, and you would report, you know, what you could see.
NM: So, tell us a little bit how you then transferred out to the Middle East. Was this the same squadron, was the whole squadron go out to the Middle East?
BH: Oh, no, no, it was with a, a, I was with this, what, this one point one, this reserve flight to start with, wasn’t I? And then, then we heard that there’d been so many losses, crew losses, and there were appealing for people to, to go to transfer to the Middle East, and so I went to this reserve flight at Stradishall, and from there, via Malta, I went to, to 70 Squadron in Kabrit, which was in Egypt.
NM: That must have been quite a change. What – can you give us your memories of the change in going to the Middle East?
BH: Well, the thing was, we had, we had a turret to go to, and the preparations for, for raids and things were absolutely marvellous. We had an advanced base; we used to land in the desert and then take off again for the raid. Well, this one here, the first one we had, operations against enemy was Menida [?] Aerodrome, so actually, I liked the possibility of going into the front turret if we were going and attacking an aerodrome, so we can go ‘round and, you know, shooting up the, the, the arm – armoury points.
NM: So, you moved from the mid upper to the front for these raids?
BH: That’s right, yes, but most of the time, you know, we were, when you were in the rear turret, we were solely concerned about attacks by enemy aircraft, you know? So, most of our light was emphasised downwards. [Pause] We had one or two come up to us and nose – nosing towards us and managed to tell the pilot to do a dive and then we went down in, in a curve dive, you know, and got shot of them.
NM: So, you encountered enemy aircraft?
BH: Yes, yes.
NM: On many occasions?
BH: Oh, at least, oh, I’ll just think, at least a half a dozen times.
NM: So, tell us about squadron – your memories of squadron life in the desert. How different was it from the UK?
BH: Well, of course, water was the problem, sort of rationing out water, you know, and sort of having exercise, running and all the rest of it, but had to avoid having too much water. But then, in the desert, particularly, that was an even worse problem. [Pause] That was a thing that we did quite often while in the Middle East, was staffing the motor transport on the – between Cairo and Benghazi. The, the main road was, was used quite a lot by the enemy and we’d attack transport along there, and railway sidings, particularly, so they would try bringing the forces, German forces, into the desert via Benghazi and so we attacked the– oh, I can’t, I was trying to think of the, the general’s name: Rommel. Rommel was bringing all his replacement troops into Ben – Benghazi, so we went there and we – well, they called it the mailroom [?] because we hit it so many times, but it was where they were bringing the re – the new forces in.
NM: And were these daylight raids you were on, or night raids?
BH: Mostly night, but we did one or two; well, yes, I should think about a third of them were daylight, but mostly night. [Pause] Then it was a question of geography and remembering the shape of the, the land underneath you, whereabouts you’d got to. Location, on the main way up to Benghazi, we had to sort out Bardi – Bardiyah and Menidi [?] for erm, to locate us that we were hitting the right thing. Railway sidings were attacked an enormous amount, but we had to sort out our geography to make sure we were bombing, strafing the right things. [Pause, sound of turning pages]
NM: So how did, how did your war continue? Can you describe – were there any changes over this period, 1941, in terms of how the squadron life continued?
BH: Well, towards the end of my period, we did a lot of education of fresh crews.
NM: Who had come out to Egypt?
BH: Yes. [Sound of turning pages] Oh, this is Pershore.
NM: Is that –
BH: Pershore, that was the OTU there, Pershore, where I did a lot of bombing from there, and then on to 12 Squadron.
NM: So, tell me how you managed to get then transferred back from the desert, back to Bomber Command in England.
BH: [Sound of turning pages] 50 Squadron [more turning pages] It’s in –
NM: What happened between 70 Squadron and, and 50 Squadron?
BH: We – everything was going alright and we were bombing everything we were asked to, and, but then they were asking for volunteers to do – to go to, to England again.
NM: So, did you volunteer on your own or did the entire crew volunteer?
BH: Oh, I volunteered on my own, I think, but this was 50 Squadron, 5 Group, Skellingthorpe, it was a liaison visit we did there, and while we were there, they wanted us to go to, to – on Lancasters to Magdeburg. As a matter of fact, I’d been on seventy-two trips, missions, and I’d never once been to Berlin, somebody was talking about going to Berlin, so we went to Magdeburg, and after we’d bombed there, the skipper says ‘See on the starboard side, you’ll see Berlin, Bob, and that’s the nearest we shall get to it!’ [slight laugh] And of course we got ‘boo’s by the rest of the crew, and that’s where we finished up. That’s the seventy – that was my very last mission.
NM: So, we’ve jumped ahead into 1944 from 1941.
BH: 1944, January ’44, yeah.
NM: What – going back a little bit to coming out of Egypt into – back to England: you say you went to an OTU?
BH: Yes, yes.
NM: And you were still flying Wellingtons?
BH: Yes, as a trainee. No, not as a trainee, as a –
NM: So you, you became an instructor?
BH: Instructor, yes.
NM: What was it like being –
BH: Yes, was that ’43? January ’43.
NM: That’s ’43, yep.
BH: Yeah, that’s right, went to an OTU.
NM: So you became an instructor?
BH: Instructor, that’s right.
NM: What else –
BH: And we did an operation from there at – oh, to Essen, several times.
NM: Just what was it like converting from a Wellington to a Lancaster? Can you –
BH: Well, we were –
NM: - describe it from a crew’s point of view?
BH: Well, we had wonderful turrets on the Lancaster and, well, I think we were just pleased that it’s – that it was a new aircraft and we’d got four engines, you know? I don’t think we gave it much sort of consideration as to whether it was better or not, it just – we just accepted that it was [emphasis] better, and we were moved fa – we were flying faster. They, they were some of the worst planes [?] we did with Essen and mine laying, oh, we did a mine laying off Heligoland and that, that was a bit dicey; they seemed to have high defensive, the defences at these places. [Pause] While we were on OTU, of course, we did a lot of experience in cross-country, knowing our way about, you know, air-to-air fire, firing and air-to-sea firing, and that’s just for practice.
NM: Describe a little bit life as an instructor as opposed to operational air crew.
BH: Well, I was quite happy about that; I mean, I knew what I was talking about and the – I, I did see quite a lot, the fellers were coming to me for, you know, ‘Well, how do we, how do we sort out this?’ you know, the rear-see [?] retainer keeper, this was a familiar phrase, you know, ‘How do we deal with this when we’re still flying in the air?’ you know? You’ve got to do it with blinds – blindfold, and that was the case in some, sometimes, ‘cause there was machine, with machine guns. [Pause] That was the last trip we did, we were attacked by an ME-210, that was the target, and fired hundred and fifty rounds but there was no confirmed hits. [Pause] I’m sorry I’m not able to answer your questions quite as freely as I ought to, really.
NM: No, don’t worry about that, you’re doing wonderfully.
BH: Well, a few years ago, perhaps I should – I’m a bit more chatty, but – [pause, sound of moving papers] You’ve got a record of service here, you see: I joined in May the 12th 1939, I joined the RAFVR and received calling-up papers, then, into the regular air force in August of that year, August 27th.
NM: So, when you came to the end of your operations, why did you finish operations? Had you done, finished a tour, or –
BH: Yeah, well –
NM: What happened after your last operation?
BH: [Sound of turning pages] Oh yes, joined an AF – was an AFU, that was the training unit.
NM: So you became an instructor again?
BH: That’s right, yes, on gun, guns and armoury.
NM: And that took you to the end of the war, did it?
BH: Yes, well, February, February, no, Oct – no, October ’44. [Pause] Various aircraft that I flew in was a Blenheim Mark 1, a Fairey Battle, that was an early, early one that I flew in a lot, and then the Boulton Paul Defiant, which we did most of the shooting with on, on nights, and then the Avro Anson that, this was a transport aircraft most of the time, and then in the Wellingtons, I flew in the 1, 1C, 1A, Mark 2 and the 3, and then the Avro Lancasters, Marks 1 and 2, and 3. Oh, also, I flew in the Lysanders quite a few times, and Blackburn Bothas; Blackburn Botha, they were used to use for training quite a lot. I know they weren’t very popular for some reason, but they did the trick.
NM: So they were the training aircraft?
BH: Yes, Bothas.
NM: So, I’m interested in the Lysander, your role in flying in a Lysander; what was your role then?
BH: My role then was to, to, to take us into the desert for take-offs, they just, for operations, or to res – rescue from the desert after we’d landed. That’s when I used the Lysander a few times, was for – was rep – was actually saving, you know, escape. I flew also in Fairey Battle, Ansons, Bothas and Lysanders. Well, the Lysander, as I say, was a thing to save you, you know, sort of a –
NM: So, of your seventy-seven operations, either in the desert or across Germany, are any particularly memorable for you?
BH: Seven – seventy-three, it was.
NM: Oh, seventy-three missions.
BH: Yeah.
NM: Okay.
BH: Well, yeah, occasionally we got caught out with the ‘Un [?] defence plane catching catching up with us, but most of the time, we were wide awake to it and whenever we saw something on the starboard or the port side, we’d tell the skipper and we’d dive away. [Pause] Course, one of the main things, maintenance, was the machine, with the machine belts, belts of machines, you know, sort of making sure we didn’t get caught up on those. [Pause] Anyhow, there’s a – unless there a record of service in the whole, the whole lot, that I, you know, kept it down to a minimum there. I went recently to Clarence House; my wife’s been there to the Queen.
NM: When you look back on your time in Bomber Command, what are your main thoughts?
BH: Well, I was glad I was available to do it, and the friendship that you made with most of the people there was pretty good. [Pause] That was the thing; with the link trainer, I used to enjoy going in that, flying the various things through the link trainer.
NM: How do you think Bomber Command has been treated since the end of the war?
BH: What? Haven’t really, haven’t had any more to do with it or knowledge of it, really. No, I don’t think that we’ve – I think we’ve, we would have cottoned on to it a bit more if anything had gone wrong, but everything seemed to be right, we sort of sorted all the problems out.
NM: Do you think Bomber Command has had enough recognition since the end of the war for what they did, or what you did?
BH: Well, yes, I think so, I think we’ve been reason – reasonably recognised.
NM: Tell me about your life since the end of the war. Did you stay in the RAF long?
BH: Oh, no, when – I had been with a firm that repaired converted Rolls Royce from the chassis into a cars, you know, and it was a good firm to work for, and I, I did a lot of this, this work, and this is how I came to meet this Kalinsky, who came in with his Wellington, with his Rolls Royce, and so he told us that there was gonna be a war, so that’s what made me go into the fleet, into the reserve occupation, so that when I was called up, I was bound to be in the RAF.
NM: So, on leaving the RAF, you rejoined the same company?
BH: After – do you know, my memory, my memory’s terrible. Yes, I must, I must have done, went straight to Mulliner’s, who were coachbuilders, class coachbuilder, they were mainly, mostly London but we had a branch in Northampton, and then [pause] think I got the DFC for my last, last trips over Essen.
NM: So you were awarded the DFC?
BH: Yes, that was December the 12th, 12th of the 3rd, ’43, and then the other thing later, the RAF.
NM: What was the background to the award of the DFC?
BH: We were on – trying to see where this is. [Pause] Oh, it was on the second tour, I’d done a tour of ops already and volunteered for another, and it was during this that I was awarded the DFC on the secondary tour, tour.
NM: Was the reason for the DFC because of your –
BH: Length, length of service, service.
NM: Length of service, rather than a particular –
BH: Yes, volunteering for so mu – so much with the, with Flying Command, with Bomber Command. I went to another squadron, 950 Squadron, we went to, on operational liaison duties, did that quite a bit – it was nice to go to other squadrons and find out how they were getting on and tell them what we did.
NM: So that was between your tours?
BH: Yes, yeah.
NM: So, what was the role you played as a liaison officer, then?
BH: Oh! [laughs] I was to sort out the ammunition, and of course, in the early days, we had the pans to slap onto aircraft, onto the gun, but later on, of course, we had machine belt, belt machine, belt ammunition.
NM: Did you see much evolution in air gunnery between 1939 and 1945? Can you –
BH: Yes, well, we had a lot of new aircraft, new guns coming along, American, lot of new American guns that we were using, and also the, the loading, the belts, not just the belts, but ammunition belt, pan, pans. I don’t seem to be able to tell you anything more positive, really, you know, but –
NM: You received a commission during your service, didn’t you? Because you joined as a LAC and -
BH: LAC, yes.
NM: And moved up to flight lieutenant.
BH: Flight lieutenant, that’s right, yes.
NM: What was the history there?
BH: Well, I’d been, I’d been moved from one place to another and volunteered for so much, much, and there was a lot of training and did a lot of training with pupils coming along. [Pause] Show you this last one there; we had an enormous amount of people with us, we had somebody with seventy-two – oh, that was me with seventy two! So, if all the others had had twenty-four trips, then we were – this was a mission for, for training. It was a voluntary – well, it was while I was on a liaison trip to, to Skellingthorpe on training for, for measured score [?], I said that I’d, I’d done seventy, seventy-odd trips and I’d never been to Berlin, so this gunnery leader there said ‘Well, you’re alright, well go with us tonight,’ got to the end of the runway and this aircraft, this aircraft, yeah, this aircraft, and the target was changed to an alternative, and in the end, we went there and bombed that, and as we come away from it, the skipper says, ‘Well, you’ve seen Berlin on the right, on the starboard side,’ he says, but you know of course, the rest of the crew didn’t care too much for this, they wanted to get home, back home [slight laugh]!
NM: Do you keep in touch with Bomber Command through squadron associations or reunions?
BH: No, that’s – do you know, apart from our local reunions at Sywell, I haven’t gone back to any RAF squadrons at all.
NM: And what’s your association with Sywell?
BH: Well, our, our early training was there, we, we – it was the first aircraft we flew, flew in. We – every opportunity we had of getting a flight, we, we, we took it, you know?
NM: And you get – you go back there now for reunions?
BH: Oh, yes; well, we’ve got a Battle of Britain fighter association, and also, there’s a local – we’ve got a gunnery leader and – oh dear, what do we call the things now? We go to Sywell for the reunions for air, air gunners, all the air gunner, local air gunners, and we joined this local Battle of Britain – no, not Battle of Britain fighter association, it’s the – we joined this – oh dear [pause] gunnery association, really. Do you know, I – my mind’s really terrible.
NM: And do you still meet as a group?
BH: Oh yes; at Sywell, we’ve got a, quite a nice little bunch of fellers there, I think about, we’ve had as many as fourteen or fifteen, but it gradually faded, you know, died off a bit, and so we’re only getting about three or four of us go, once a month.
NM: And are these just socials, social get-togethers over lunch, or just to talk about old times?
BH: No, just at the, the aerodrome at Sywell, where there was a bar there, you see, that was the attraction amongst. There were various cross-country trips, you know, to renew our flying experience.
NM: When was the last time you flew? Was it at the end of the war, or have you flown since the end of the war?
BH: [unclear] [sound of turning pages] So, Uxbridge, we had a – was Bishop’s Court – was about ’44, February 44, it says.
NM: You haven’t flown since the war?
BH: No; oh, well, not air force. I, I, we’ve flown private, private flying ‘cause we’ve got some friends in, in France, we used to go nip across, you know, by ordinary aircraft.
NM: Okay. Shall we stop the recording there?
BH: Yes.
NM: I think.
[recording is stopped and restarted]
BH: Well, people had lost their logbook, or oil. So I managed to rescue mine and copy this from it. [Pause] Who was that?
NM: So your logbook doesn’t exist anymore but you’ve copied all this out from it?
BH: Oh, yes, that’s right, remember him.
NM: So, are you still in touch with any of your original air crew?
BH: Well, I was in touch with the skipper that I flew with most of the time, Alan Gowarth [?] of Monaco, Monaco, he was a night pilot, fighter pilot in 23 Squadron in - during the Battle of Britain, and this, this was illustrated with the seventieth anniversary of the Battle being commended.
NM: So you’re still in touch with him? Are you in touch with him now?
BH: No, no, not in the last – I think he might have pegged out since, but yes, I think it was quite late when I still, still in touch with him, March.
NM: So you were in touch by letter. Did you ever meet him again after the war?
BH: No, no, no, of course, he was New Zealand, he went to settle in his home in New Zealand. [Pause, sound of turning pages] Spires of Lincoln coming out of the mist as we got closer to home, a wonderful sight. As a matter of fact, we did have a situation where we were followed in to our own base, and we warned – we’d been warned about this, and anyhow, it was the last minute, really, before he was gonna fire at us, and we noticed that he was almost nose nose to tail with us, and so I told the skipper, you know, ‘We, we, we’re being followed, turn, turn starboard,’ you know, and he says ‘Okay, yes, fair enough,’ and we shook him off, but he got to within, oh, within a few hundred yards, I suppose, of shooting us down, and we got back home.
NM: So, you had a clear sight of this?
BH: Oh, yes, it was a, it was a Heinkel.
NM: And at this point, you were coming into which airfield?
BH: Hmm, not sure.
NM: Was that Wickenby or somewhere in Lincolnshire?
BH: Yes, somewhere, somewhere in Lincolnshire, but I can’t remember which. I should ought to remember because we were near, near to being shot down!
NM: Was that the closest you’ve, you came?
BH: I think so, to our demise, yes. [Pause] We’d been told about this: ‘Be careful, the blighter’s follow, following you in,’ and he almost on our nose, on our tail, you know, with his nose. [Pause] And then the skipper says, ‘Glad you kept your bloody eyes open, Bob!’ [laughs]
[recording is stopped and restarted]
BH: On the way back from the major target, we’d sort of go to various aerodromes, and the skipper’d ask me to go into the front turret so that we could go around the, the dispersal points shooting up all and setting fire to a lot of aircraft. We did this on quite a few occasions.
[recording is stopped and restarted]
BH: I was just wondering where to start, what, what was I talking about, now?
NM: You were talking about the geodetic construction.
BH: Oh, yes, yes, I was thankful and praised God for Barnes Wallis because of his aircraft design. We were over Benghazi, and we had a, a enormous hole inside of the fuselage (about six foot diameter), and the fact that it was geodetic construction of air, the pilot still flew the aircraft quite smoothly, and then we landed in the desert and checked up on what was what, and we took off again! And that was with a six foot diameter hole in the side of the, the fuselage, and of course, as I say, I thank God for Barnes Wallis and the fact that the geodetic construction was so, so wonderful.
NM: And the damage was caused by en –
BH: By flak, but that was bloody uncomfortable to sleep and we – ‘course, when we were in the desert, we, when we went up from Cairo up to the advanced base, we’d have to sleep in the aircraft, but the geodetic construction was as comfortable to sleep on! [laughs] You know, you’d have load of flying kit all on your hip, you know, to stop you from being scarred [?] ‘cause it was in – we slept in the co – oh, if we, if you laid out, you slept outside the aircraft in the desert, in, in the, oh dear, well, if, if you slept outside in the desert, on where there were lots of dried-up salt lakes, but you could have slept on there, and that was – but there were a lot of darn [unclear] about, and they were, actually, they sounded worse than they were, so it was a question sleeping inside the aircraft, but then, of course, you’ve got the geodetic construction, you know, made it uncomfortable, but having a lot of Irvine jackets and trousers, of course, to pad the sides.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bob Hughes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHughesWR150713
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:58:38 audio recording
Contributor
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Beth Ellin
Sally Coulter
Carolyn Emery
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Hughes joined the RAF as war became likely to avoid repeating his father's First World War experience in the trenches and transferred to the RAF Volunteer Reserve when war was declared. He trained on Ansons and then flew in twin-engine Blenheims in the Battle of Britain as part of 23 Squadron. They carried out night defence patrols from the south coast up the Thames Estuary.
Bob volunteered for Bomber Command which had lost a lot of crews. After one air test for Number 9 Bomber Squadron, he went to 149 Squadron at RAF Mildenhall and flew in Wellingtons. He describes the difficulty of targeting well-defended Essen and bombing cruisers in coastal areas, such as Wilhelmshaven.
Bob then transferred to 70 Squadron in RAF Kabrit, Egypt and the Middle East. Water rationing was an issue. They would carry out raids on transport and railway sidings in response to Field Marshal Erich Rommel bringing German forces into the desert via Benghazi.
Bob had instructor stints at the Operational Training Unit at RAF Pershore and Advanced Flying Unit. He went on operational liaison duties to 950 Squadron. Other aircraft in which Bob flew included: Battle, Defiant, Lancasters, Lysanders and Bothas. Bob undertook 73 operations and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross on 12th March 1943.
He describes the evolution in air gunnery during the war. He also praises Barnes Wallis’s geodetic construction.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Suffolk
England--Thames River
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Kibrit
Libya
Libya--Banghāzī
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Essen
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1943
1943-03-12
1944
1945
149 Squadron
23 Squadron
49 Squadron
50 Squadron
70 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
Battle
Blenheim
Botha
Defiant
Distinguished Flying Cross
Lancaster
Lysander
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
promotion
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Pershore
RAF Skellingthorpe
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner