Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Christine Kavanagh]]> Pending review]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Great Britain]]> Germany]]> England--Lincolnshire]]> Germany--Oberursel]]> Poland]]> Poland--Żagań]]> 1941]]> 1942]]> 1943]]> 1944]]> 1945]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Carolyn Emery]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Civilian]]> Great Britain]]> Italy]]> Netherlands]]> 1945-04]]> 1945-05]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Julie Williams]]> Pending review]]> Pending OH summary. Allocated S Coulter]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Germany]]> Great Britain]]> Italy]]> Atlantic Ocean--North Sea]]> England--Lincolnshire]]> England--Yorkshire]]> Germany--Berlin]]> Germany--Cologne]]> Germany--Düsseldorf]]> Germany--Hamburg]]> Germany--Wilhelmshaven]]> Italy--Milan]]> Germany--Ruhr (Region)]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Christine Kavanagh]]> Pending review]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Great Britain]]> England--Lincolnshire]]>
Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed.]]>
Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Katie Gilbert]]> Pending review]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Canada]]> France]]> Germany]]> Great Britain]]> Netherlands]]> Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea]]> England--Suffolk]]> Germany--Berlin]]> Germany--Hamburg]]> Germany--Kiel]]>
Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Julie Williams]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Argentina]]> Germany]]> Great Britain]]> Poland]]> 1942-10]]> 1943]]> 1944]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Julie Williams]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Great Britain]]> Nigeria]]> England--London]]> 1942]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Julie Williams]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> Pending OH summary]]> eng]]> Sound]]> British Army]]> Great Britain]]> India]]> India--Delhi]]> India--Mumbai]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Julie Williams]]> Pending review]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Great Britain]]> Greece]]> Syria]]> Middle East]]> Middle East--Palestine]]> England--London]]> 1940]]> 1942]]> 1943]]> 1944]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Great Britain]]> England--Lincolnshire]]> England--London]]> 1939]]> 1940]]> 1942]]> 1943]]> 1944]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Ian Whapplington]]> Julie Williams]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Germany]]> Great Britain]]> Poland]]> England--Gloucestershire]]> England--Yorkshire]]> Germany--Luckenwalde]]> Poland--Tychowo]]> Wales--Bridgend]]> 1942]]> 1943-03-29]]> 1944-08-18]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Sue Smith]]> Anne-Marie Watson]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Great Britain]]> England--Staffordshire]]> England--Wolverhampton]]> China--Hong Kong]]> China]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Anne-Marie Watson]]> Pending review]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Navy]]> Great Britain]]> India]]> England--Buckinghamshire]]> Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Anne-Marie Watson]]> Pending review]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> France]]> Great Britain]]> England--Wiltshire]]> England--London]]> Scotland--Durness]]> 1941]]> 1945]]>
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the University of Lincoln.]]>
Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Julie Williams]]> Pending review]]> HR: 1923.
TO: And where did you grow up?
HR: Poplar. E14. London E14.
TO: And what, were you interested in aircraft when you were younger?
HR: No. I was more interested in ships. My dad was in the Navy in the First World War so I really wasn’t really interested in aircraft at all.
TO: Did your father talk about his time in the Navy?
HR: Not much. But we know that he was in the Navy. Yeah. Yeah. He was a chief petty officer or something in the Navy in the first war.
TO: And what age did you leave school?
HR: Fourteen.
TO: And what, do you remember which school you went to?
HR: Yes. I went to St Leonard’s Road School ‘til I was eleven. And from eleven I went to Hay Currie School in Hay Currie Street, Poplar E14. Yeah.
TO: And when you were at school did you hear at all about Hitler?
HR: Not really. I learned about Hitler that when I was about thirteen or fourteen we used to, like in the East End there was lots of wharves and places and there would be little ships come with people in them from Germany bringing goods to England and that and we’d talk to the people and they’d tell us what they thought about him. And they used to tell us all stories about how wonderful he was and all that. But no. Hitler was never, the blackshirts, we had in the East End we had lots of blackshirts at that time. They used to sell a paper every, and push it. They used to be selling these papers. I forget the name of the paper but they used to sell a blackshirt paper on Saturday nights. But no as children Hitler didn’t really, and Mosley, people didn’t like Mosley very much so it didn’t, it didn’t resound very much. The Unions. If you think of it my mother’s uncles and that were all dockers and they worked in the Unions and the Unions were a big thing then when I was little. Yeah. That’s when they had those marches in the East End and all that. I can remember all that really. But it went over my end. I was a bit too young to appreciate it.
TO: And do you remember the Munich Agreement?
HR: Yes. That was sort of, the Munich Agreement, people were worried see. See some of the boys got called up. You know they were going to call them up for six months and I suppose I was about sixteen then and, but the boys who were eighteen odd who were in the street and on the corner who we used to talk to they were a bit worried about being called up for that six months or whatever. But they did. They went. They went straight in the Army afterwards. The never did their six months. They’d done more than six months didn’t they? Yeah. They brought, they brought conscription in for six months about that time. Yeah. I can’t remember too much about it.
TO: And do you remember the preparations that were being made for war?
HR: No. What I remember is this. That when the war started everybody was out of work in this little street we lived in. And within by, say the war started in September by December most of them people in the street were in work. Working in the ships and working on things, you know. Suddenly it all changed and being a bit of a revolutionary it struck me that why weren’t these people in work before, you know. So, it did [laughs] got the old revolutionary part of me going you know. Unfortunately, it shouldn’t be that but it is.
TO: And what was your first job?
HR: My first job was working at a firm called [Bobbins] and they made [pause] they made boxes for whisky and packing cases for tea and all that and they they imported the plywood, cut the plywood to size. Done it all up in piles and put all the bits and sent it all out to India and all that business and they were finished off in India the cases like. So you got, I got a job there. Nineteen and five pence a week. I remember it. That you, I was unloading these on a little wharf it was. Unloading these bales of plywood like. You’d get two bales of plywood on a trolley and you know. So a barge would come in with a thousand and about ten kids would unload that and put it in there. Then when they unloaded they’ve a lorry would come with all the sheet metal to stamp the edges out with and the kids would unload that see. And then we’d work on the presses that the gentlemen had. We’d stand and we’d catch all the stuff behind the press. So that was the sort of job I had and it was a tough job because all these kids if you worked with a lot of young people it’s a little bit of king, and you really have to stand your corner. It was very difficult at first but you get used to it.
TO: And do you remember how you felt when the war started?
HR: I can’t really say. No. My mother was upset about it. My mother, she’d lived through the first war and she realised what was going to happen and things you know. So she was more upset really and that, you know. And we lived, we lived with my grandmother for years and years and about when I was fourteen my dad got a little house for us and we moved. And he decorated the house and we moved in to this house but we only lived in this house about six, six or seven months before the bombers came. I suppose perhaps two years and they came and blew the house up. So that’s what happened. Yeah.
TO: And do you remember when hearing about Dunkirk?
HR: No. Not really. Dunkirk never, I’m not saying that it did but probably it did more down here because they were involved in it but up in where we lived in London it didn’t. It didn’t resound that much. No. Old Churchill he made all these speeches you know, shoot them on the beaches and all that business and we heard those speeches. They were quite resounding speeches weren’t they?
TO: And what did you think of Churchill?
HR: Oh yes. I wouldn’t say we liked him. You see at the time where we lived Poplar was a bit of a Labour stronghold you know and we didn’t like the Tories and we didn’t like Chamberlain much at all. Unfortunately, because in the end he was, he did do, try his best but unfortunately, and then and Churchill took over didn’t he? But it was a bit like that because that guy who was Lord Halifax, that’s right he wanted more or less he’d have given in wouldn’t he and the King would have given in as well. But so it wasn’t, they weren’t all as we think they are. But you did get that feeling. But at the time I was not political at all so it didn’t make no difference and I wasn’t in a Trade Union and I didn’t [pause] You see all the people in the East End they worked in the docks and all things like this and they were all in Trade Unions and all weren’t they but when you were my age at the time, about sixteen or seventeen it goes over your head doesn’t it really? Alright?
TO: Yeah.
HR: Have you got it?
TO: Yeah. Is the [pause] do you remember when the Luftwaffe began launching its first raids on Britain?
HR: Yes. Yes. I can remember walking down because they raided the docks you see and you could, in the daylight raids you could see the bombs dropping. You know that. I’m not saying well that’s what I thought we could. Yeah. These planes would come in and drop their bombs. But then we had all these barrage balloons all over the place and that’s what, that’s my biggest thing about it. I don’t remember seeing much of the fires. We used to go camping before the war and we used to come down [pause] I’m trying to think of a place. It’s about halfway. So during the war we got on our bikes and we were going to go down there but the police wouldn’t let us go any further. They, they wouldn’t let us go to where we wanted to go. We got to Wrotham Hill and they wouldn’t let us go no further. They had a barrier there. They said unless we had a reason to go that we couldn’t go. We said we wanted to go camping. They said, ‘No. You can’t do that.’ But that’s when, that’s when the the bombing and that I suppose they were worried about people moving. Agents moving along.
TO: Did you have an air raid shelter where you lived?
HR: Yes. We dug it in the garden. You know, one of them bolted it all together. Yeah.
TO: Did you ever need to use it?
HR: Oh yes. Yeah. We used it. My mother and them they, the bombing really, you know really affected them and they went down to Worcester. So I stayed in the house on my own for a while. But after a while I thought well, you miss your mother and you miss your family so I thought, I went down to Worcester to see them. So the people down there took me in and I stayed in the house next door to where my mother stayed and the people there were very very nice to me. Yeah.
TO: How did people seem during the Blitz?
HR: Well, nobody was really frightened but they just wanted to make sure that they didn’t get caught but you know when all them guns and all the shrapnel was dropping and things they were just a little bit worried that’s all. But not else. No. The Blitz was a, the people took it very reasonably calmly you know. Stoic goes the word. Yeah.
TO: And when did you decide to join the Air Force?
HR: Oh, I didn’t. When I was, I was just eighteen see and I wanted to join the Navy so I went to this place. My mother was at Worcester so I went in to the place at Worcester to join. There’s a, you know all the Services joined so the man said, ‘Sit down.’ They were busy in the Navy. So a man came out from the Air Force and said, ‘What are you sitting there for?’ So I said I was going to join the Navy. He said, ‘Why not join the Air Force?’ So he said, I said, ‘I don’t want to join the Air Force. I want to fly.’ They said, ‘Oh, we can fix that.’ So they sent me up to London and I had an interview at the Air Ministry with a couple of air marshalls and that. They sat me around a big table and asked questions and then they said, ‘Right. We’ll accept you for training.’ So, that’s it. So yeah. And then I went to [pause] oh the zoo. You know, just by the zoo there.
TO: Regents Park is it?
HR: Yes. In a block of flats. We were in this block of flats somewhere. That was for, that’s how it started and then they sent me up to St Andrews.
TO: So did you originally want to be in the Fleet Air Arm?
HR: No. Not really. That never struck me as any. Not at all. I would have, I would have been a sailor just like my dad. You know what I mean. That’s all I wanted to be. Yeah.
TO: Did you, did you have —
HR: Is there something wrong?
TO: No. The dogs just going for a walk.
HR: Oh right.
TO: Did your dad want you to join the Navy?
HR: No. My dad [laughs] my dad never said very much at all. Unfortunately, I think perhaps he should have said more to me. But he never said much. He never ever, he never ever told me to do this or gave me advice or anything. My dad was a very gentle sort of man. I think he’d had enough of it you know. So he didn’t want to get involved in it.
TO: And what did your mother think of you being in the Air Force?
HR: Oh no. My mother was different. My mother. No. My mother never objected to what I was doing but my mother thought that the war wasn’t something to be, my mother knew the consequences of what was happening. My mother was a realist perhaps. Yeah. My father was a dreamer.
TO: And could you tell me a bit more about the training you went through?
HR: Oh yes. I went to, I went to St Andrews and done a bit of drill and with mathematics and things like that. Navigation and all that business. And from there I went to Leuchars. That’s just outside Dundee and you had to, they took you for, you had to fly these Tiger Moths you see and they gave you ten hours. You had to go solo in ten hours. Then they assessed you and everything. Then I went back to Manchester. To a, in a park where they put us in this Heaton Park. In a tent at Heaton Park and they valued us and done all things. Then they decided what, what you’d be, you see. So they sent me out to Calgary. They sent, they sent me up to Scotland and I got on the Queen Mary and we went to New York and we got on a train and went up through the States there to Moncton, new, Moncton, New Brunswick and from there we got another train and went right across to Calgary and I went just outside Calgary to a little town called High River where I had to fly these Tiger Moths.
TO: And do you remember the first time you flew one?
HR: Oh yeah. I flew them in Scotland first you see. You had to do it. If you didn’t solo in so many, they give you so long. They said, ‘Right. You’re unsuitable for pilot.’ You see. You only got so long. You know that don’t you? You do know that they had a system like that.
TO: And how did it feel the first time you were in control of the plane?
HR: Oh, you’d done what you were asked. You know what I mean? They took you up and you’d done all these spins and things like that. Yeah.
TO: Yeah.
HR: I’ll tell you what. If, if you go up on a cloudy day that’s the nicest part. You go through the clouds and that. Are you? Are you a pilot? Oh, you go through the clouds and suddenly it’s all different you know. It’s a different world.
TO: How were the instructors?
HR: Oh, very good. Very good. I can’t moan about any of them at all and, yes and I went from High River into Calgary and we flew these Cessna planes there. Cessnas they were. Two engine things. And so we had to do circuits and bumps and flying over. You had to go up country all over the mountains and things. Over the Rockies and things. Yeah. It was a holiday really. They put us on a train and we come back and I came back on the, I went on the Queen Mary and come back on the Queen Elizabeth you see. So really it was luxury tour.
TO: You said you were interested in ships. Was it a privilege to be on the Queens?
HR: What?
TO: You said that you were interested in ships when you were younger. Was it a —
HR: Oh, it was super. Yeah. And on top of that if we when I was going out on the Queen Mary if you helped in the kitchen you got extra food and all things like so you could. You helped in the kitchen and it was different you know. And you could stay right at the front of the ship when it was, when it was going right across the Atlantic you know.
TO: Good.
HR: It was an absolute different thing.
TO: And what year was it that you finished your training?
HR: I would think it was ’41 or something like. ’42 or something. That’s what I’d say. Yeah. I don’t know.
TO: Can you tell me about, the bit about just, could you tell me a bit about the medical tests they gave you for the pilots?
HR: The medical tests.
TO: The medical tests to see if you were fit for flying.
HR: What can I tell you about that? They just, you had the biggest test was blowing in this thing. You had to keep the mercury up at a certain level and it tests your lungs or something. You had to do. You had to keep blowing it and they’d test your heart at the same time. But that’s the one thing that used to worry me more than anything on the tests. Yeah. You had to do the mercury and it had to be the right height. Yeah. I don’t know what the test is. Do you have that test now?
TO: I’m not sure. Probably [pause] And did you hear about what was happening elsewhere in the war?
HR: Oh, when, when I was at Lord’s that’s when America came in the war. 1941. Yeah. And it’s, it was a bit different I suppose but no, when we went across the Atlantic with the Queen Mary because they was always on the lookout for these submarines and that you know as it zigzagged all the way over there. But when you were over big seas the propellers come right out of the water you know and the whole ship shakes and goes back in and that. It’s very very good. And when we went into New York harbour to see the Statue of Liberty and all that and we went on a berth and next door was the Normandie and that had caught fire and fell over in the dock hadn’t it, you see, so yeah. Yeah.
TO: Is there anything else you remember about travelling on the Queens?
HR: Not really. The crew. The crew on the Queen was very nice, you know. They, I would think the coming back was a bit different to going and a bit more. There was more probably more passengers that you know we had loads of them American troops on coming back. Yeah. You see going out there we had lots of Navy guys. They were going to pick a cruiser up. That was in the shipyards in America, you know. So a couple of crews yeah.
TO: And what happened when you disembarked from the Queen Elizabeth?
HR: The Queen Elizabeth?
TO: Yeah.
HR: Well, when we came back home? [pause] I don’t know. I forget now.
TO: That’s fine. That’s fine.
HR: I’m trying to think where I went. I’m trying to think. I’ve got a feeling I went to Harrogate. I’m sure they [pause] I’m sure I went to somewhere in Harrogate from there. Yeah. And that’s where they put you in different places and that.
TO: So when were you sent to the Bomber Command squadron?
HR: I don’t. I would reckon it would have been about ’43. Something like that. Yeah. I didn’t do many operations. I did, I went to Hamburg and I went to the Ruhr but I went as a, you know co-pilot so I could see what it was like. You know what I mean. So they sent me to Hamburg and the Ruhr. I went to Hamburg in a Wellington and I went to the Ruhr in a Lancaster. But I don’t remember. I might have done a couple more but I don’t remember them. I can remember those two because they were the first time I saw all this ack ack come up and bang up in there. It’s all surrealistic. You can’t hear it you know. You can see it but you can’t hear it. You can’t hear the bangs up in the air. It’s just you can feel it but you can just see all these shells that were bursting up there.
TO: And so were you serving as a flight engineer at this point?
HR: What?
TO: Were you a flight engineer at this point?
HR: A flight engineer?
TO: Yes.
HR: No, I was a pilot. I had a flight engineer. Yeah. His job was to make sure all the tanks were fuelled up so —
[steam train passing]
[pause]
HR: Have I said wrong?
TO: No. No.
Other: It’s the train. It’s the train.
TO: Oh, it’s a train. Sorry. I thought it was a sound on the —
HR: It’s a little train. Yeah.
TO: Ok.
HR: Have you finished?
TO: No. I was just looking at my next question that’s all. What did you, where exactly was your squadron based?
HR: At Tuddenham in, it’s, it’s, it was from another ‘drome. I’m trying to think of the other drome. The Americans took over the ‘drome in the end. But it was around an old RAF ‘drome you know but Tuddenham was one of the satellites and it was in Suffolk. Yeah.
TO: Ok.
HR: I have, I’ve never been back there but it was on the outskirts of Newmarket. Yeah. The earl of something was in charge of the squadron but [pause] probably it was me. I didn’t do it right.
TO: And which squadron were you in?
HR: 90 Squadron. Yeah. Oh, I know the squadron. I know everything. Yeah.
TO: And when did you first meet the crew you would be flying with?
HR: Well, they changed it. They changed the mid-upper gunner and they changed the navigator but the others I don’t know. I met them all there. I don’t remember that. I can’t remember that to be honest. It’s gone.
TO: Oh.
HR: I’m sorry about that.
TO: It’s fine. It’s fine.
HR: You can’t remember everything can you?
TO: So what’s your opinion of Wellington bombers?
HR: Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Nothing wrong with them. They were made of aluminium. Bits of pipe all put together with a fabric over the top of it, isn’t it? You know. Geodetic construction. I know it was so that they could have a bash and it won’t affect the plane you know. Or it will. It can carry on after being knocked, a shell go through it or something. Yeah.
TO: And what did you think of Lancasters?
HR: Oh yeah. Yes. Very good. Luckily I didn’t have much chance to have a go at them you know. A Stirling is the thing that I got in trouble with. I’ve remembered that once I went to the south of France with some mines and they said, ‘Don’t drop them unless you can actually pinpoint exactly where they go.’ But the navigator I had couldn’t pinpoint the place to put them in so we brought them back and they were mad you know. They were upset. I think I went on a charge over that. They got me in trouble over it. But they told us not to do it. You know what I mean. If they tell you not to do something you won’t do it will you? Perhaps we should have broken radio silence and asked for more instructions. But I know they were upset and they cleared the path. When we landed they really cleared it all. Everybody was gone. They thought the plane might blow up as it landed.
TO: So were they able to remove the mines safety?
HR: They got them out. Yeah. But they had a lot of trouble. They caused a lot of trouble. Caused me a lot of trouble as well.
TO: And didn’t they call that gardening?
HR: Pardon?
TO: Didn’t they call it gardening when they were deploying mines?
HR: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it was supposed to be easy [laughs] Yeah. All these things are supposed to be easy but they’re, they’re not. They’re just as hard as [pause] oh, it doesn’t matter. I, know that maybe you may have got more ack ack and things like that on other things but you got just as much trouble. I mean with that you could follow the other planes. You could see them. I mean, the other bit you were on your own. You had nobody to go by. You’d got no [pause] I mean if you were on one of these big raids you could see all the other planes. You could see the targets and the things yeah but it’s different when you’re, when you’re flying on your own. It’s completely black and everything. Yeah. So it’s more a test on your, on your nerves really because before you were all worked up. You were going to do it and it didn’t matter whether they threw the world at you. That don’t make any difference. But if you were on your own and it was quiet you can get lost. On your emotions as well.
TO: And what’s your general opinion of Stirling bombers?
HR: Oh, I think that, you know that they chopped the wings of it don’t you? And that’s where it went wrong really. They should have, they should have left the wings on and then it would probably have been very successful because those old Bristol engines were very good. Yeah.
TO: When you were flying a Stirling how did it compare to a Lancaster?
HR: Well, it don’t matter really. You’d got, you had more power probably with the Lanc. You had the engines you know. The old, you had inline engines. The only thing is that if you get flak or anything it could make a hole in and you’d lose your glycol or something and it would bugger the engine up wouldn’t it whereas them Bristol engines you could lose the cylinder and they still work. So there’s this [pause] they did fit the Bristols in Lanc 2s didn’t they? Yeah.
TO: So did you like the Stirling?
HR: Yeah. Well [pause] it’s I probably didn’t have enough experience to like or dislike. That the truth.
TO: And as the pilot what were your responsibilities?
HR: Oh, I was in charge of the crew. You see unfortunately, and you accept that responsibility. It is a difficult responsibility but you accept the responsibility. You’ve got to be in charge of the aircraft. I know that the navigator was a pilot officer but it didn’t make any difference did it? When I was in, once we got in that aircraft I was in charge of the aircraft. He did what I asked him to do. Nobody, nobody, he didn’t take over the plane or anything like that. He did what, so anybody if you had a pilot, if you take an air marshall with you he’s got to do what you ask him to do see. That’s the scheme.
TO: And what was the procedure for take-off?
HR: What?
TO: What was the procedure for take-off?
HR: Oh, you had to have done all this. You know that you have to know all the different bits. You have a sort of special sort of thing that you have to take yourself and you’ve got to do all these different bits and check everything. Check this. Check that. Check that. Then you were ready to take off. But you had a checklist. Yeah.
TO: And did you have to memorise the checklist?
HR: Yes. Yes. For each plane you see. Whatever plane you were flying you had a checklist, didn’t you? Admittedly it was basically the same for all planes but you still had an itemised thing for each plane. Yeah. And they still do it today don’t they? They’ve got, they’ve got a little, they have got it all written don’t they? They do it. But they never let us write it down in the Air Force. We had to memorise it and we had to sign a Form 400 or something wasn’t it? That we took over the plane in good condition. We were supposed to inspect the plane before so that when you go out to the plane the chief man who is basically a mechanic looking after it they give you a form and he’s been over it and you have to talk around the plane and check the plane. And for a 400 you had to sign it to say that the plane was in good working nick when you took over, you see. So, you’ve got to look at the wheels. That’s what you were supposed to do.
TO: What, how did the briefings work before the raids?
HR: I can’t really say you got a lot of briefing. You, I did go to the briefings. They would tell you, you know what to look out for and what was going to happen and that’s all. And when we went on these they didn’t give us a lot of briefing when we went to the SOE things. They gave us very little briefing. When we came back they gave us more. More briefing. Debriefing, than we got when, before we left.
TO: And what were the rations that you had in the Air Force?
HR: What?
TO: What rations did you have in the Air Force?
HR: What?
TO: Your rations in the Air Force.
HR: Rations?
TO: Yes.
HR: Oh, we had quite good rations. Eggs and bacon and stuff like that, you know. People like that sort of food don’t they? Quick food. Yes. The food was quite good. Yes. And, and so we lived in sort of primitive places you know. Them Nissen huts you know with a bit of fire in it but we all slept in the same place. The crew. We all slept together in, we lived together in a little hut so everybody knew everybody about what was coming.
TO: Was there a strong friendship between you all?
HR: Yeah. Reasonable. Yeah. There was stronger friendships between one or two people you know but mostly yes reasonable friendship between everybody. I think the ladies of the, you know the girlfriends and that they were they all got together and they were friends as well. Yeah.
TO: And what did you do to entertain yourselves?
HR: Oh, not much. I think we did drink a bit and that but not much because there wasn’t very strong beer then was there? The beer was [pause] that was probably where we would go and entertain ourselves dancing and things like that. Dances. But there wasn’t much to do.
TO: And what did you think of Arthur Harris?
HR: Oh, well everybody loved him you see. Everybody loved Mr Harris. Yeah. Air marshall. He was more an uncle wasn’t he really? That’s, we were his children really weren’t we really? So that’s, that’s how it was. Yeah.
TO: And do you, can you describe the first time you flew the Stirling?
HR: I was what?
TO: The first time you flew the Stirling. Could you describe that?
HR: Yeah. It was one of these Conversion Units. You know. You went from, from flying Wellingtons. You went to a Conversion Unit and they put you on either Lancasters or Stirlings you see. I went [pause] I’m trying to think. It was Wratting Common or somewhere like that. Down, near on a Conversion Unit and that’s where they, when they had one of these thousand raids on Hamburg we was flying Wellingtons then and they sent us over. We had to do a raid there on [pause] they took every plane that was available like you know because they had to make a thousand bomber raids didn’t they so they took them all from these Conversion Units. They bombed them up and took them over there. So we went on that. Yeah. Wratting Common. That’s, I’m sure it was Wratting Common somewhere. It’s in Suffolk now somewhere, isn’t it? Down near, oh I forget where it is but it is there somewhere isn’t it? Wratting Common. I’m sure that that’s where we flew them. Stirlings. Yeah.
TO: And were you on the thousand bomber raid to Cologne?
HR: No. Hamburg I went. Yeah. That was a thousand bomber run on Hamburg wasn’t there at the same time? Roughly around about then. Yeah. That’s the one I went on.
TO: And was that your first?
HR: I don’t know. It might have been. Yeah. Might have been. I know that I went with another squadron to the Ruhr you know but they were, Tuddenham was an outpost for some other ‘drome. I’m trying to think of it and they were in the main ‘drome. They were Lancasters and they went out to the Ruhr and I went out with them as a co-pilot.
TO: And were the raids on cities any different from the Ruhr or did they feel the same?
HR: Well, you see when you, when you went on a raid they got, the Pathfinders went in and dropped these flares and you dropped the bombs on the flares. Do you know what I mean? Whatever flare. They told you what colour you were going to drop your bombs on and you used that colour. That’s, that’s the idea. The Pathfinders marked the target and you went out and dropped the bombs on where they marked it.
TO: Do you remember was there a specific target you were given for raids?
HR: What?
TO: Were you given a specific target for raids?
HR: Events?
TO: A targets? Or was it just a general area you would bomb?
HR: No. We were given specific colours you know. They dropped different coloured flares. We were given specific colours you know. So we had, they’d say that, ‘Your target is the red,’ or, ‘Bomb on the red.’ And they, and they over the target the Pathfinder would come on the radio and say when the bombs were dropping too far to the south and you had to drop them a bit to the north so many degrees and they’d tell you which. Which was which. Them Pathfinders went low to see where the bombs were dropping you see and so you they had Mosquitoes that went down you see. That were fast enough to go down and look at it and then go up again you see. And so they gave you instructions on where to, where you was going to drop the bombs.
TO: And could you see actually see anything below or was it just cloud?
HR: Pardon?
TO: Could you see anything below you or was it just cloud?
HR: No. No. You could see all this. You could see the targets you know when they were on fire and all that. Yeah. You could see. And even when, when the SOE you were flying over there you could see all down below because you could see different tanks moving about and things like that on the ground and you could see different bits of what they were doing. Yeah. Oh, we know. I mean you’re only about eight or nine thousand feet so you could see everything, you know. There’s nobody up, you’re not up at ten thousand and that’s as high as we were going weren’t we really? You see, we didn’t. Now everybody goes up a bit higher don’t they? But in them days we used to have oxygen but we didn’t use it very often. No.
TO: Did you ever have problems with the oxygen supplies?
HR: No. Not really. No. We didn’t use it that much but no. We did use it when we went to the Ruhr and places like that. We were higher there to get there and that but probably came down a bit when we were dropping our bombs. Then we went up again probably because you wouldn’t see where, where the flares were on the floor didn’t you? You see, they drop all these different coloured, the Pathfinders had markers didn’t they? That’s what, that was the idea of them. It was a good idea wasn’t it really because you could pick the right target then whereas half the time up until about 1942 three quarters of the bombs were dropped in different places weren’t they? Blokes used to go out there and drop the lot and come back didn’t they? And they never had to photograph. They didn’t. They didn’t take a photograph of what they were dropping or anything like that. But in the end they got cameras and they could work out exactly the target and everything couldn’t they? So up until 1943 three quarters of the bombs weren’t dropped on the right targets weren’t they? And that’s what, that’s what history tells you anyway.
TO: Could you ever see the fires below you?
HR: Not really. No. No.
TO: And had you, during your training had you been taught how to corkscrew?
HR: How to what?
TO: Corkscrew the plane as an evasive manoeuvre.
HR: What to [pause] if a fighter was coming along.
TO: Yes.
HR: Yeah. Well, we were told a bit but not much. We would as you know [pause] I forget now. We had to corkscrew it like this a bit you know to try and put them off. And obviously the fighters used to come from underneath you see. You see the Germans they’d got a cannon somewhere that they could fire underneath and that was the big trouble wasn’t it really. Yeah, because the Americans had a turret under, underneath didn’t they? But we never had a turret underneath did we? So the underside of the bomber was always an easy target wasn’t it really? Yeah.
TO: And what was the procedure when the, for dropping the bombs?
HR: Oh, the bomb aimer was in charge. He told you what to do. That’s, that’s the main thing. I mean you might moan and say, ‘Come on hurry up.’ But that’s what you said didn’t you? If the bomb aimer was there like when we was dropping them good stuff for the Maquis you had to line up exactly and you’d say, ‘Come on. Hurry up.’ And you’d get it lined and let’s get rid of it. And we took spies and things like that out there but we weren’t allowed to see them. They got in the plane after you’d got in the plane. You got in the plane and you were ready to take off then the, then the spies would jump in. You never saw them. You never nothing to do with them you see. So, and they weren’t, they were people to work with the Maquis, you know. The French Resistance. Yeah. I know I say the Maquis but it is, that’s what they called the French Resistance then didn’t they?[pause] You must be finished now.
TO: Just a few more if that’s ok.
HR: [unclear]
TO: Ok. Did anyone ever get, did you talk much on the, to each other during the raids?
HR: Not really. You, you might speak to the gunners or somebody. ‘Wake up, lads,’ or something like that but that’s about all. You didn’t speak much on it at all.
TO: And what was the procedure when you were returning to your aerodrome?
HR: How do you mean?
TO: Going in to land.
HR: What?
TO: When you were coming into land.
HR: Oh, oh then you had to [pause] Yes. They gave you the ok to land and I forget now. I forget all that. But yes. You have to learn all these things. You have to. But you learn that right from the beginning you know. If when you’re training you have to. It’s the same procedure that you have to for landing your plane when you’re training as when you go. They could give you the ok to land. Yeah. You don’t talk too much because they did have German fighters used to come and listen to it. They’d probably come in and try and shoot the planes when they were landing and that. That was, that was the idea anyway so you kept as quiet as possible.
TO: And were you ever on any raids to Berlin?
HR: What?
TO: Were you ever on raids to Berlin?
HR: No. No. Unfortunately, I wasn’t much good to the Air Force. I’m sure of that but unfortunately that’s what happens to you isn’t it? I never found out ‘til years afterwards that they were waiting when I went there. And that’s because at Bletchley Park you see they knew that the back of you had been compromised but they couldn’t say because D-Day wasn’t very far away and they didn’t want the Germans to alter their codes or anything like that you see. So they, they let us go. I think in a way it’s, they couldn’t have stopped us really. It wouldn’t have been right would it? But that’s what I think. And the next night somebody else was lost. They sent another plane to deliver stuff for the Maquis and that. The squadron sent another plane and they lost it the next night.
TO: And how did you come to be involved in the SOE?
HR: What?
TO: How did you come to be involved with the SOE?
HR: Oh, well it’s nothing to do with you. You were told what to do. They’d tell you what you’d got to do and bombing raids were on time but when it wasn’t a bombing raid they had these SOE. And they’d give you SOE to give you experience of looking after things and that but it’s, they come unstuck you see. They really were waiting for us. It was all fixed up that the Maquis had been compromised by the Gestapo and they knew when we was going to arrive and that so it was a fixed thing unfortunately but nobody told us that. Nobody said anything about that after the war. Nobody let you know about it all and it was only the people who looked at it since that I was I’d got I’d be eighty odd when they found out the truth. That’s a long time isn’t it?
TO: And what was the procedure for baling out?
HR: Oh, [laughs] I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you. Probably I’d be the last one out but the captain being the last one out you know. How did I get saved? I don’t know. I remember seeing all this like tracer stuff coming in but the next moment it was gone. One minute I see all this and probably the tracers that blew me out of the cockpit so I got burned. I got all my arms burned and my legs burned and my face burned so it must have been a big fire mustn’t it in the cockpit. I don’t know. I must have gone out and into the river. I fell in the River Loire and they pulled me out of the river. Luckily the river put the fire out but the hairs have never grown on my legs because look. One of them’s got no hair. See. They’re all, they’re all got burned off. The skin got burned off the same as this one. Both of them. They both have, you know there’s no hairs on the front. There’s hairs on the back but not on the front so the shells must have come in about there see.
[beeping]
HR: Alright. Ok?
TO: Ahum.
HR: Finished?
TO: Almost.
HR: Ok. Thanks very much. Thanks for coming.
Other: He’s not quite finished. A few more minutes.
HR: What have I done?
Other: Nothing. He’s just —
TO: Nothing. I’m just waiting for the clock that’s all. So —
HR: It’s 10 o’clock?
TO: No. I was waiting for the clock to stop striking. That’s all.
HR: Oh right.
TO: Do you, so did you wake up in hospital?
HR: No. I woke up, yes. In a French hospital. And they took me to a French hospital and in this French hospital they wouldn’t look at me so they put me in another thing and took me to Paris to another hospital in Paris that was a German hospital. Well, it was a French hospital but the Germans were running it. Run by the German Air Force. So that’s where I went. I’m trying to think. Point de Clichy. It’s on the outskirts of Paris, isn’t it? Pointe de Clichy. Yeah. I’m sure this hospital was the hospital Clichy.
TO: And when were you taken to the prison camp?
HR: Well, I reckon about five weeks after that. Five or six weeks after that. Yeah.
TO: And —
HR: And it was funny but they put us on, they put us on a train. I think we would be just about D-Day or before D-Day you see because in the hospital some of these lads from the Parachute Regiment came in and they had landed before D-Day to take certain objectives and they landed in the wrong place. So they caught them and one or two were brought in to the hospital. But when they were brought in we were sent out. So I would think that this all happened in April. So by June, May, June about six weeks I was ready to come out. So they sent me out just before D-Day. Well, it might have been D-Day or something like that.
TO: And —
HR: I know it was all when we went to the station it was all the, you know all the ladies. We got in this truck and we said to this German who was driving the truck we’d never seen Paris so he said, ‘Right.’ And he took us all around all the places you know and then he took us to the railway station. At the railway station all the ladies there were making a fuss over us and everything and they got all niggly said, ‘Get out of the way,’ and put us on this train. Off we went and there was old boys looking after us. Elderly gentleman like. People about sixty in the German Army. And most of the guards in the camp were all about sixty but they had what they called ferrets in these camps and they were younger fellas like but they always spoke Cockney English and things like that. They’d been, they’d been living in England and gone back to Germany like, you know. So you had to be very careful of the ferrets but they were, they were alright but you know you could play them at their own game. That was the only way. Yeah. They were listening to what you said and everything.
TO: What was everyday life like in the camp?
HR: well, there was lots of people. You made friends with everybody don’t you in the room you live in and so forth, you know. We were in sort of bunk beds. You know, them bunk beds like and like they give you a bag like they’re going to bury you in that bag. It was like a bit potato sack, you know. A big one. And the thing is that we, what we did we got there’d be the odd blanket or two and we sewed around the outside of the bag, the inside of the bag and we’d slide in there and we’d have a blanket inside and a bit of that stuff on the outside. So we slept in this bag they gave us.
TO: What did you do to pass the time?
HR: Oh yes. Make all sorts of thing you know from bits of tin like, you know. People would make radios. There was a load of guys who made radios and they used come around and say, they’d give you the news every now and then. So they listened to the, to the BBC or somewhere like that and they’d come back with the news. Of course, the German news wasn’t reliable was it? No. Well, it was but it was slanted their way wasn’t it really? We wanted news slanted our way. But that’s, yeah we had people that used to listen and come around and tell you what it was. But we’d play cards and different things. All the different things to do. But I probably wasn’t very well then. You know, my arm was, at the time this arm you see I had some infection went in. I’d got my hands burned you see and some infection went in there and these great big lumps came up so they cut these lumps off and that left a big hole. But also it meant that the bits that lift your arm up they shortened, you know and I couldn’t move that arm. So I used to get a couple of guys to hold this tight and get them to pull it out gradually. You think I’m not going to go without my arm. At least I’ve lost my eye but you’re not going to lose your arm are you? So that’s what I used to do. I had to do all them things.
TO: And was there anyone who wanted to escape?
HR: What?
TO: Was there anyone you knew who wanted to escape from the camp?
HR: Yes. There was lots of things because at Sagan they were digging tunnels and that but where we were it was all sandy ground. I don’t think it was very, nobody dug any tunnels in the camp. Luft 7 I was in. I don’t think many people tried from the camp. I don’t, I’m not sure that anybody got out of the camp that I was in while I was there. I was only there a year so [pause] I don’t suppose I was there a year. I was there about, I think I was there from about June to about February you know because then the Russians were coming weren’t they? So that made it. So we had to leave Poland because I was in a little, I was in a camp near Auschwitz. Not far from Auschwitz but we never never knew what was going on in Auschwitz. Yeah. But we were in them box cars just the same and they’d pull us in sidings and they all had dogs and everything. When we come to Luckenwalde. When we got on the train when they put us in Luckenwalde camp that’s where they were all, they had all the gear there for gassing you and all that business. When we went to showers they were all great big doors on the showers and everything. But they never did did they? They never gassed us. No. But they had all the facilities there.
TO: Did you hear about the Great Escape at Sagan?
HR: No. I think we did hear something about it but I don’t think it really registered much in the camp I was in because you see there were no officer’s in the camp. It was all NCOs. It was all non-commissioned officers. So all flyer. They were mostly flying crews. It was a camp just for flying crews. Sagan was for the officers and where we were at Luft 7 was for the sergeants and all that. But all the officers went to Sagan. I’m sure that’s where they went. Yeah. Perhaps they had better conditions where they could do more and they had more idea but it never happened really much where we were. We would probably I thought that maybe I was a little bit stood out with one eye and all that you know. It would be difficult to escape. People would have had you right away wouldn’t they?
TO: What was, what were conditions like in the camp in general?
HR: You’ve got any more. Oh, conditions in the camp.
TO: Yeah.
HR: Well, a bit like a camp. You didn’t get a lot of food and you spent most of the time, you spent at least an hour or two or perhaps two hours or three hours in the morning every morning counting. So, because people used to move and they had to get it right you know and then some people would move and they’d have people counting you and they’d make it so that it was so awkward for them to count you know that in the end they gave up, you know. So for one or two people who got away that’s how they covered up for them. You could get away I think. You could get, you could go out on a laundry thing you know but we weren’t allowed to do any work see because we were NCOs. So, but I think people got out on a laundry bit and a couple got away or two. Not many got away from the camp obviously.
TO: So what was your rank?
HR: Then I was a flight sergeant. Yeah.
TO: So were you worried that the Russians would capture you?
HR: Yes. Yes. The Russians when they came they put a tank and they took all the barbed wire out there in the camp and everything. Right. And then they said to the Russian lot come on you’ve got to fight and they took their own prisoners away. And they were going to send us back to Russia for interrogation. Their idea was that there could be spies amongst us. But the Americans who were close by sent up a truck to take the American airmen back because there were American airmen in Luckenwalde as well. So when they came up we said to them, ‘Well, why not take us?’ So they took so many of the RAF. So we were taken back by them. And the Russians were going to stop these trucks but the Americans said, ‘No. No. You’re not. We’re going to take our people.’ So we were lucky. The Americans took us back. That’s how we came to be liberated and we got back and we went to Brussels. And from Brussels they flew us back to somewhere. Oh, I don’t know where it was but somewhere else. Near Oxford it was. Somewhere near Oxford. [unclear] near Oxford. We went home. I can’t remember any of that. I know that I went in hospital at [pause] I’m trying to think when I was in hospital. Cosford I’m sure. No. They sent me to Aylesbury. You know [pause] McIndoe. That’s it. He operated at this hospital.
TO: East Grinstead.
HR: Yeah.
TO: Queen Victoria Hospital.
HR: No. But they, he was there and we were in another one at an RAF ‘drome there somewhere and there was loads of guys having their bits taken out of their arms and sewed on their face and all that business, you know who got burned. And they operated on my eye there. Yeah. But I’d been out. They let, I’m sure that I got married before I went there. You know. I’m sure that when I came back they gave me leave and I come back and got married. I got married in June and I reckon June the 9th and you think I was liberated in May so it was pretty quick.
TO: Did you when you were in the camp were you able to send letters back home?
HR: Well, I did. Yeah. I was, it’s all done by Geneva isn’t it? You know you have these special letters. You’ve got to write them. You can’t put anything in them otherwise the censor will black them all out and everything wouldn’t they? Yeah. I did write back. Yeah. But I don’t know how many came back. I don’t know how many they got but I think they got, I think they got three or four of them. Yeah.
TO: So your family knew you were, knew you’d survived.
HR: Well, yes but not for a long time you know. And I got to give it to my mother, ‘I fooled you.’ She said, ‘No. You were always coming back.’ She said. Like a bad penny I think [laughs] but my mother always thought I’d survive.
TO: And when you were taken from Poland back into Germany —
HR: Yeah.
TO: Was that all, were you on a train the whole time?
HR: Pardon?
TO: Were you taken from Poland —
HR: No. No.
TO: By train.
HR: We walked. We walked to the River Vistula. I know. I remember crossing the River Vistula. That’s in Poland isn’t it and they were blowing up the bridges as we went across. You know, the old sappers were underneath and they blew the bridges up as we went. We got across and there were some people escaping from the Russian Front and we had to help them. They had a few staff cars we had to dig out the snow and that so yeah. And we got by and I’m trying to think where they put us. They put us in box cars somewhere because everybody got a bit upset about that because there would be about fifty or so in a box car and it was a bit crowded. People got a bit upset.
TO: Can you, can you remember much from the, from the Long Walk that you did?
HR: The Long Walk? Yeah.
TO: Yeah.
HR: They took us into these different farms you see. They put you in a farm. We walked so long and there would be these. They had farms like collective farms and so there was a big farmhouse and that and we all slept in a barn and things like that. But I used to try and sleep with the horses because you get some warmth out of the horses you see. The only thing is they tread on you and things like that you know. You had to be careful.
TO: Did anyone get ill?
HR: What?
TO: Did anyone get sick during the march?
HR: Yes. Actually, the guards got more sick than we did but they were mostly old boys you see and the cold got them and more guards got sick than the prisoners really because we were mostly young people and where they were old men you see. And it really took it out of them. I don’t know. Quite a few got sick and tried, and laid and stayed in different places like you’d walk through these places. I remember once we went they put us in a cement works and we had to be, I had a, I don’t know this was underneath. It seemed to be all [pause] and over time, they put us into different factories and places like that as we was walking back.
TO: Were you, did you have enough food during the march?
HR: Not much. No. We didn’t have much food at all but we pinched the best we could as we were walking along, you know. There’s loads of things. You were walking through the country you see and you have to become you could pinch things like sugar beet and things like that and you’d eat that raw. But I don’t know if it done you any good but it was very hard to chew.
TO: Did you think that the war would soon be over?
HR: Well, you’ve always got to be optimistic haven’t you? It’s no use being pessimistic when you’re in that situation so we always thought we was going to win. But they always thought they was going to win see. When we were in Paris, in the hospital in Paris they used to sing, “We’re Going to Hang Out the Washing on the Siegfried Line,” you know. The nurses used to sing that and they thought they was invincible. And I think they, I don’t think it’s any different now. I think they’re the same people. I think they’ll have us just the same. But I mean look at the trouble we’re having with the Common Market now. I don’t think they will give us anything. But they’ll always want their pound of flesh. That’s what I think anyway.
TO: Yeah.
HR: But maybe you’ve got a modern view of things.
TO: And do you remember when you arrived at Buchenwald?
HR: What?
TO: Do you remember when you arrived in Germany itself on the train?
HR: Yes. Oh yeah. We went to Dulag Luft. It’s, oh I forget what it’s in. It’s on the outskirts of [pause] It’s in the Ruhr you see. Dulag Luft and when we went there the RAF had bombed the town before so the people were going to, they chased us. They were going to hang us. I don’t blame them but they was all upset about being bombed. But luckily an old boy was in charge of us and him and an oberfeldwebal in the German Army and he put us in an air raid shelter and he put a machine gun on the air raid shelter. He said, ‘Look, I’ve got, these prisoners are in my charge. I’m going to look after them.’ So he looked after us. And we got on a tram to go to Dulag Luft and it was like we were on a train but the guards said, ‘Get off.’ And they took us off the train, off the tram. So he got us there in the end and we went to Dulag Luft. It’s an Interrogation Centre. But, oh yeah. I forgot about that. Dulag Luft. Yeah. Before you went to Poland that was. Yeah.
TO: What about when you got back from Poland during the march? You’d been in the railway cars.
HR: We’d been to Luckenwalde. It’s just south of Jüterbog.
TO: Ok.
HR: It’s just south. It’s near Berlin.
TO: Cool.
HR: Yeah. That’s where the Russians came in see. The Russians came in. They were coming into Berlin weren’t they? They come and took Berlin and they were, I think it was south of Berlin where we were or it might have been north. I don’t know. I know we were in the outskirts of Berlin.
TO: Can you remember the morning the Russians arrived?
HR: Yes. Really. I told you that they came in with these big tanks and whipped all the, all the barbed wire down. All the, opened the camp up completely. There was this big battle in the wood just outside the camp. Not far from the camp and the Russians had bumped off all these Germans in there and there was stacks of, heaps of bodies in the in the woods. I don’t know. I don’t know. I’ve got an idea we got out and went in the woods because the war was over then, you know. The war wasn’t over but the Russians had liberated and they’d taken all the Russians away and they left us and the Americans and some Polish people. So we were we thought that we were going to be transported back to Russia but as I say the Americans come up and took us away.
TO: How did the Russian guards actually react to when they met you?
HR: Oh, they were very good. No problem at all. The only, I can remember they came, when they came they came in like horses and carts and everything, you know. I know the troops went through bump like the attack people. But then the people behind them that came in had horse and carts and things like that. And I remember one of these horses and carts came through and we said, ‘We’ve got no water.’ And they said, ‘Oh.’ we couldn’t understand their language. They gave us a drink and they gave us a glass of vodka to drink [laughs] I can remember drinking it. Yeah.
TO: And is there anything else you can tell me about the train journey from Poland to Germany?
HR: From?
TO: When you were in the cattle trucks.
HR: The what?
TO: You were in the cattle trucks.
HR: Ah. Well, it was [laughs] Well, what do you want to know about it?
TO: What were the conditions like on board the train?
HR: Oh, it was really not very nice because I know the guys wanted to go to the loo and things like that and they couldn’t go to the loo and they slid the doors open and somebody held them while they went to the loo. You know what I mean? It was really horrendous it was and all the guys were kicking up the dust in there you know. But when we got out of this other place just like you see them they all had dogs and they were all lined up and before we got in the camp at Luckenwalde. Yeah. Marched us all in there.
TO: And what were conditions like in Luckenwalde?
HR: Very cramped. Very cramped. But it was more organised because there were more squaddies in there you know and the squaddies got more organised and it was an organised camp. And there was a Polish bit and a bit there and you could get out of the bit you was in and get in to the Polish bit and talk to all the Polish lads, you know. Then you’d be able, you’d get back in your own bit. But yeah and like every morning you were able to wash under a cold pump. There weren’t many, the washing facilities were a pump out there. Pump the water up and you washed in cold water and it was really cold. You know what I mean? And you had all these lice and that. You had, you had all the lice come out of the floorboards in this place because it had been an old camp for a long while and so you had, you had to get your shirt off and delouse it and you had to have a wash and everything otherwise these things would run all over you. It wasn’t very pleasant. How long were we there? I don’t know how long we were there but I know that’s where the Germans used to let us wash in the showers. That’s right. In this place. Every now and then we’d have they’d arrange for us to have a hot shower you know. About once a month or so like we’d get rid of all this rubbish and I told you these big showers had great big doors and everything. So really they were really gas chambers really but it was you didn’t care then. Things were going to get better or worse. You’d got to accept it. You got in the mood where you accept things.
TO: How did you feel when you heard that Germany had surrendered?
HR: Well, when, when these Americans took us in the truck and all these places all is kaput and all that business and all the places were on fire and we drove through all these south of Berlin and all that and lots of towns were all in bits. They were all rubble. It’s like the Middle East today. That’s what it was you know. Similar to that. I can’t forget. I forget lots of it. It was a long time ago. You’re asking me to remember seventy years ago. You can’t. I can’t remember what happened yesterday so seventy odd years is a long time.
TO: You’ve done very well. Thank you.
HR: What?
TO: Is there anything that, is there anything that you want to add about your, your RAF service at all?
HR: No. Not really. My crew.
TO: Yeah. Yeah.
HR: Yeah. Well, you feel guilty you know. I was responsible for all these people and they all got killed and it does affect you. When you think of it that I was the captain of the aircraft and so therefore they were really I should perhaps have looked after them more but I didn’t get the chance. But you feel that don’t you? Thanks very much.
TO: Thank you.
HR: Thank you very much. I’m sorry that I’m not, I can’t remember all that well.
TO: That’s fine. You’ve done brilliantly. Thank you so much.
HR: What?
TO: Thank you.
HR: Thanks.]]>
eng]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Great Britain]]> Poland]]> England--Suffolk]]> Poland--Tychowo]]>
Peter first learnt to fly powered aircraft at Elementary Flying Training School and was then attached to the 9th United States Air Force. He flew in C-47s, then went back to C squadron, flying Hamilcars. When the war finished, Peter went to Fairford and converted onto Waco CG-4As to go to the Far East.
Peter discusses the time leading up to the Second World War, his views on Chamberlain and Churchill, and how prepared the country was for war. He describes his training and time as a boy soldier.
He trained at RAF Stoke Orchard on Hotspur gliders, towed off the ground by Master aircraft. When he left Glider Training School he went on Horsas, towed by C-47s. Hamilcars needed four-engined bombers: 38 Squadron Halifaxes. Peter describes flying these different gliders.
Peter recounts in some detail the Rhine crossing in which they were hit by anti aircraft fire and landed nose down before escaping to Hamminkeln and ultimately returning to RAF Brize Norton and then to his squadron at RAF Tarrant Rushton. He talks about his Bren gun.
Peter expresses his pride and the many friendships made. He also praises several generals for their roles in the war.
Peter discusses the VJ and VE Day celebrations and how warfare has since changed.]]>
Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Sally Coulter]]> Julie Williams]]> Carolyn Emery]]> eng]]> Sound]]> British Army]]> Royal Air Force]]> Great Britain]]> England--Dorset]]> England--Oxfordshire]]> Germany]]> Rhine River]]> Germany--Hamminkeln]]> 1938]]> 1945-05-08]]> 1945-08-15]]>
Peter describes his daily routine, flight training at the Elementary Flying Training School and glider training at RAF Stoke Orchard. He flew every military glider: Hotspur, Horsa, Hadrian, Waco and Hamilcar. Peter recounts his first solo and sneaking flights with aircrews carrying out night flying tests at RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth. He also describes his first glider flight and the interior of a Hamilcar.
They met tug crews prior to operations, sharing the mess, but living separately. The Halifax towed them on the Rhine crossing when they carried a 17-pounder anti-tank gun.
As a heavy lift squadron, they lifted both the 1st Airborne Division and 6th Airborne Division, lifting Royal Artillery or Royal Armoured Corps.
During his time with the United States 9th Airforce with Troop Carrier Command, Peter went to more than one mass drop prior to D-Day. He saw “Windy” Gale, Browning and Eisenhower. ]]>
Tom Ozel]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Sally Coulter]]> Julie Williams]]> Carolyn Emery]]> eng]]> Sound]]> British Army]]> Royal Air Force]]> Great Britain]]> England--Dorset]]> Germany]]> France]]> 1943]]> 1944]]> 1945]]>