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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/15/25/ABoschD150730.1.mp3
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Title
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Bosch, Dirk
D Bosch
Description
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One oral history interview with Dirk Bosch (b. 1931) a schoolboy in Amsterdam during the war. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-07-30
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Bosch, D
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being carried out on the behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Mr Dirk Bosch, the interviewer is Mike Connock and the date is the 30th of July 2015 and the interview is taking place at Welton. Right, if you just tell me a bit about where and when you were born.
DB: I was born in Amsterdam, July 1931, just about eighty four years ago therefore and when war broke out I therefore was only I was only eight years and a number of months old. That’s very young and my parents obviously tried to shield me from everything. We lived in Amsterdam and I do remember that when Holland had capitulated as they obviously would have. They would either have been overrun by superior German forces or capitulate so I think it was a sensible option. The country is small. In the First World War which was often mentioned 1914 1918 the Netherlands were neutral and we liked it. We took that as a good thing and we wanted to be neutral again. So we tried to be neutral. We did not mobilise in the face of Germany because we thought we could pacify her. We could keep them quiet which meant that when war broke out we were not prepared. We were knowingly and consciously not prepared. My brother therefore who was of that age, older, about 12 years older than me [pause] he was lately, late on called up and he was got ready for the front because we didn’t engage, we didn’t engage with the Germans. It was that quiet. But he late on was called up and he was got ready for the front with no preparation to speak of. No training. No exercise. Just in, issued a uniform, keep him in that barracks there and you know he was very soon to go to the front when fortunately the war ended in Holland. We were not unhappy with that as such. It, it was the best of two evils really.
So I remember standing along one of our main entry roads into Amsterdam and the Germans came in in endless columns. Nearly all in transport. There weren’t any, any boots on the floor. They were nearly all were in transport and they dashed past us, they rushed past into the centre of Amsterdam and from there probably onward. The Germans being Germans will have been well organised. And that afternoon. Whatever time it took - that was it. We were now occupied. You didn’t notice that much on the day. We didn’t hear any
MC: I was going to say, you were going to say I just wondered how the schooling, your schooling was, you know, up until that time.
DB: OK.
MC: Can you?
DB: Well yeah I’m trying to recoup where I was. Anyway the Germans were all through town and for one thing they took our school. We had a nice, fairly modern school and they took it for a hospital. We therefore, the pupils had to join another school and I haven’t got the dates and times precisely I know but it was something like 8 to 1 for the one school and one to half past five for the other school and that alternated. So, that, the prettier school that the Germans had, had taken for the hospital, that was built right into the middle of blocks of civilian houses and they had, I’m sure, done that on purpose to make sure that the RAF or whoever wouldn’t come in to bomb or anything. Well in the first place everything was pretty quiet. We were told at a fairly early time but I don’t know how early that we had to hand in our radios and my parents did but the neighbour below us because we lived in flats, the neighbours below us hid theirs. Now if it had been found they would have been shot. As easy as that. But it wasn’t found because the man was a worker at a local bank and he had all sorts of nooks and crannies at his disposal, vaults and safes and he could manage to scriddle[?] his radio away. We did of course see Germans walking and we also had what we referred to as the NSB which is the National Socialist Bond or something and they acquired uniforms. They were given uniforms and they were put on the street corners selling their particular paper which I’ve never ever seen anybody buy. That was the most ostensible signs. There was, there were declarations. The Germans put declarations on walls and house sides and the declaration would be in the gothic lettering. We couldn’t hardly read it but then they also put what we would call today normal, normal script, normal font next to it and we were supposed to read that and see what we were to do and not to do because that was what it was all about. We had an underground and the underground was active but very cautious because we had little to gain. We couldn’t do anything that was terribly significant. I mean you wouldn’t go and kill a German soldier because the repercussions would be tremendous and you wouldn’t have achieved much. So we just saw them march and they sang. We had a curfew. Not I suppose at once but I only remember it if it was all [?] time we had a curfew at night, fairly early. I would think depending on how light it was. Something between 6 and 7 and then at night when we had little to do but go to bed we could hear the singing and marching. There was of course no transport to speak of because at, in 1940 stroke ‘45 we in Holland had very few motorcars in the first place. I mean who had a motorcar? I had one uncle who had a car and I had twelve uncles, you know and, but that was how life was. That was normal. We had bicycles. The use of the bicycles was fairly limited because the Germans built cordons and let all the bicycles run into it but none out. They took the bicycles for melting down the rubber of the tyres and the steel or the metal anyway for their, for their weapons production. So people became terribly frightened and cautious about using their bicycles. The out, the way out was by using the bicycles without tyres. It’s possible. It makes it a much slower process and very loud especially on cobbles. The things rattle like hell but what developed was that parties of people not many at once would go ‘up farmer’. Now ‘up farmer’ means you go and sort out a farmer somewhere in the country. You take your box camera or your, a couple of sheets or whatever you have in the cupboard and you try and exchange that for something to eat because the, at this time, the time I’m talking about but not sure how to to identify we had no food and the farmers were sympathetic and I did take our stuff. I suppose I more or less had to, er but they would they would try to give you something to to take away and the thing to have was peas because they were long lasting things and wheat. Wheat was always fancied. Er Potatoes. Potatoes could last a good while but anyway anything they would give and then the people would walk the bikes so they wouldn’t matter so much if they made a bit noise but there were trips beyond a single day so they would have to sleep somewhere by the roadside right on top of the bikes so that they wouldn’t get stolen or anything with their gear on and then the following day they would have to continue their journeys. Now my sister, who at that time must have been anything between fifteen and twenty, sorry I can’t know much better she did a couple of trips and she did it with a friend of hers, also of course a young lady and there was, I never heard of any problems that they had with the German soldiers. They were stopped and they were asked what they were doing and what they had there and they happened to get away with it. They didn’t lose any gear but a number of people would relate their stories. They were stopped by German soldiers. They would take everything they had got from the farmers and the bikes and they would have to walk the rest home with nothing. That of course was very, very unfortunate very unpleasant. So as war progressed we got we had less and less food. The Germans provided a system of ration cards and food to, to cover those ration cards. There was also what was known as centrale keuken - centralised kitchens and you had ration coupons for those kitchens and it was my not ever so pleasant duty to go with a pan to some shack somewhere and get your, your ration of slops whatever it was and carry them, carry that home again and when it got home it was a very unanimous sort of slops you know. There was, you could see perhaps a little bit of the potato or a little bit of carrot but you couldn’t really tell what it was. It was just like a thick soup basically and then if you wanted to warm it up somewhat or something you did not have any fuel. There was no gas. There was no electricity. Electricity wouldn’t have helped in this instance because in Holland we used gas for all that and electricity really only for lights, radio, that sort of thing. So we had stoves in our main room in our lounge, our sitting room - living room. We had stoves and where they came from I don’t know but there was a supply of little stoves. Little metal boxes and those boxes were more or less open in the bottom and had a hole in the top and they had a little drawer in the bottom and had the shelf in the middle like a roster with, you know that the air could pass through. And us kids were sent out to find branches and bits of paper and anything that would burn and what you could do you could put the little square box, metal that was on top of your stove your main stove in the lounge and the draft would come from the bottom, draw through the grid, the grill and you had some paper in there and you lit it and put your branches fired your branches, your bits of timber anything you could find and that would then burn quite well. You could put a pan on the top of it and the pan shut off the top so you have got an opening in the bottom for the air to go into, then you had a, it, it went through the fuel if you like. Then there was a vertical enclosure of it and that was not quite, did not quite go to the top. So the air that rose being hot would go over the top and at the back it would be sucked away into the works of the stove and go up your, the chimney in to the environment so that way you had a heated source and you could warm something a bit. Obviously later, in later years when it got colder and that last winter ’44, ‘45 wasn’t it, it was a very bad one. A very strong winter. It was not it, it, it meant nothing. It was not enough heat to do anything. At that time we would sit in our kitchens. It would be dark early. I don’t know what this discipline of lighting we had whether the clocks were forward or backward or two hours forward or two hours backward even we, I don’t know but it was light, it was dark early and you went to bed early. We sat in our kitchen and our kitchen was about ten foot by a good four foot and there was one little table in it. There were in fact six of us. My brother, two sisters, my father, my mother and myself and we would, we would sit on that around that little table a little table of about 60cm by 120metre, you know, very small and my mother would be invariably darning. My sister would be rehashing, recycling clothing would be unpicking the seams, would be cutting away the edges would be putting it back together and later sew it again on a hand sewing machine and then it would be a different size. It would be smaller because everything would have been uniformly proportionately be reduced and that was for somebody else to be used and that’s how we went with that. The ice on the windows was measurable it was at the bottom end of the of the window pane where some melting might have occurred and it had come down. At the bottom of the window pane it would be a good half inch thick and the whole pane would be filled with ice. And it would be rather beautiful to be honest where all these patterns that these crystals make. But upstairs, and I slept upstairs it would be absolutely freezing. It is unbelievable. People did not only died of hunger but they also died of cold of course. Now there is a big thing not yet mentioned to you which had its own affect all through and at one point we had on one the morning when we stepped out we saw people with funny yellow stars on their clothing and I had no idea. I had no idea what it was about and I don’t know if I very soon did because as I said my parents tried to keep me out of things. Not ever so religiously but on the whole you know I didn’t know about. But those of course were the Jews and at a given time these people all came out with these yellow stars on their coats and as you know the Jews wear a lot of black. Black overcoats are a favourite and then they had a very poorly sewn yellow stars on their coat. You could see someone very unused to sewing sometimes had sewn them on. Big course stitches you know five points that was all really. But once they were identifiable and identified they were sitting ducks. I suppose that there would have been certain ones who didn’t do it. They were very much in danger if they were found out but the ones who did do it were little better off. One morning and I, one of the things I remember, and I don’t think I have a memory for everything at all but one thing I remember when we walked to school from where we lived we crossed a rather main artery, you know, major road and as we came from the side street that we used to cross it and continue on the other side to my right were a number of German trucks, open trucks and there were people being ushered along the pavements. There were German soldiers stood along the pavement in in rows that I walked in between and the Germans were all armed and they were sort of roughly made to get into those trucks, standing on top in the open and those that had been filled were just having to stand there and wait and the rest will no doubt would have filled because we just crossed that road and we went on. Talk about it. We had no idea we had no idea. Nobody did. Perhaps at that time the right people hadn’t even been addressed to Hitler to set processes in in motion. I don’t know but we, Germans to us were our neighbours. We had a certain respect for Germans. Other countries as well. Holland by the nature of its minerals, its ores and other things we were dependant on foreign countries for much of our industrial product and we knew Germans and French and English well. On, even on the quite simple schools you learned the three languages German English and Dutch err German, English and French because you were expected later to be able to converse with these people.So, I’m trying to pick up my train of thought here. We, we had seen Germans we had known we knew, were more into German music than English or French music and we would have some idea of German films. Even in the, the wartime in the beginning of the war we could still go to cinemas but only to see German pictures and we spoke of Heinz Ruhmann because he was such a funny man. We didn’t mind Germans at that level somehow because oh they would look after us. The Jews would be alright. They were, after all they were Germans. They wouldn’t do anything nasty. It wasn’t in ‘em. And although we had our underground from the word go and people were very much anti the German sympathisers we didn’t at that point hate the Germans, strangely enough. Perhaps my memory is not perfect on that score or my knowledge but that’s how it must have been for at least for a good proportion. So we went into that period and the Jews were being deported to work camps. We understood that the Jews were being taken to work for the Germans. Now it wasn’t very nice. It wasn’t right, it wasn’t good but they’d be back soon. They wouldn’t be long. So there they went and the Germans started to empty their houses or their flats or whatever you know. We referred, in our idiom we referred to all that as houses. They started to empty their houses and if you looked in the railway yards you could see long columns of wagons with enormous banners on them from back to front and it says liefde giften van Holland [?]which means love gifts from the Netherlands. This of course was a lie but nobody was even shaken too much about that. After all we didn’t have that much respect for the German decorative but in any case we didn’t know what was going on and what happened was that those wagons were all being run off to Germany and somehow were made available to Germans. We of course in Holland had lots of waterways and near us in one of the canals we had one of these big lighters [?] . Are you familiar with lighter? A lighter is like a big open house a big hull really that’s all it is. And they were full of small items. I proudly, we jumped into them and do you know was rummaging about and I proudly brought some bank slips home. I had no idea what a bank slip was but I could, could draw on that. So I brought that home for drawing on and for writing on. Just a few things. I think I was then told not to do it again but that was the long and the short of it. So and by and by that disappeared. Now those houses stood empty and as it got cooler and colder eventually we Dutch people of Amsterdam came and broke open the the doors because in Holland and certainly at that time there was one front door and several flats off it so the flat, the front door could usually be opened with a latch key. So they kept, they left the front doors in the beginning but they began to take all the stairs away. They took the stairs away right to the top to the third or fourth floor they burnt them of course. That was fuel. And when that had gone they took the doors on the higher floors away and when they had gone they took the floors of the floor of the other floors away and when they had gone they took the beams and rafters until they were stood there empty. The front door by that time would have gone as well but they, they were empty carcases of houses. The bricks of course remained and I think out of caution and health and safety they left some of the beams so they wouldn’t collapse on people. But that that was that. That disappeared. We had one Jewish couple - couple from family which we were acquainted with and they disappeared. We knew through my sister there was a girl in that family Stella and her father and mother and their fathers and mothers they all disappeared one day. Gone. And only the girl herself came back. After the war, I don’t know I think it was the Americans who found them in their concentration camp. After the war they were first taken back to another part of Germany and then to Sweden and from Sweden to America and we have known them and we have visited them in New York where she had by that time married a German. A German Jew. He had also been in a, in a concentration camp and they, they told us stories not too much because it’s distasteful and you don’t like to talk about that but on the other hand they were very keen that young, younger people, their own kids would be well acquainted of facts. Right. What I would want to say is are you happy that little?
MC: Did your parents work at that time? Were they, what did they do?
DB: At -
MC: For work
DB: At that time women very rarely worked in Holland. They were housewives. Holland of course had a reputation for being clean and everything. Well those women at home were always cleaning and they cleaned the streets in front of our flats and we, carpets were being beaten twice a week and it was quite a, quite a thing you know and all carpets were taken up – carpets and rug, rugs, and my mother would talk to the lady below us and they would come together, take all the carpets and rugs out. Some of ‘em had special steps, wooden steps, very tall about seven steps to a set and they had two brackets in the top rung and they would bring down a long wooden pole and they would push the pole through the brackets and big the eyes and then they would put the carpets over the pole and they would hold a corner of it in one hand and the carpet beater in the other hand and they would give it hell and, I didn’t know that at the time but there was even regulation about it. Not everyone could at any time beat a carpet. You couldn’t do it before and I’m guessing 8 o’clock because people might still be sleeping. And you couldn’t do it longer than 10 o’clock because it was about time that it stopped and when those carpets were being beaten and remember that was all down the street and those buildings are four storeys high so it echoes and the din was enormous and then when it was done it had to be rolled up, taken up the stairs, the stair carpets had to come down as well and the stair carpets were sewn together so that when they were rolled out they took the shape of the stair and then they had the carpet rods and they were, had to be reinserted under the eyes that were drilled into the carpet to the stairs however and then peace was restored. But it was not of any import in itself of course. Not relevant to the war. That always happened but that’s what the ladies did. They cleaned. My father was made to work somewhere because just at that time when the Germans came in he’d become sort of redundant because of the slump because by that time you know you had the big malaise and he was, was set to work in fields because I know this because the Germans loaded them up on trucks and ran ’em to the fields somewhere and gave them jobs to do. I spent the whole day there. I had a fishing rod and stayed there all day and had a marvellous time. Excellent time. And the Germans stood guard armed over these elderly Dutch workers. So I don’t know what he did. I never went to look. I don’t know if I’d have been allowed to get any nearer. Perhaps I was as near as I could get but they will have been building bunkers or tank, tank stops, tank – I don’t know. And really on the whole therefore we didn’t have an awful lot to do with them. I would, I was involved in taking an illegal paper. Now illegal papers were serious business and the Germans here again would kill people. Because they wanted, at all costs I think they knew the punishment was out of step with the offence but they knew that it had to be stopped at source because the illegal papers told people things they didn’t want you to know. There was, the only news I know we had was a news cinema in town. For a little while we had the radios and that already very quickly turned into propaganda medium. Let’s not be mistaken about this all the time everywhere but the when the Germans said that over the front at this point the German forces have carried out tactful for retreat for the good of the war and therefore be in a better position. No. They had been beaten and they had been beaten back but you didn’t know that and you didn’t know what you could believe and what you could not believe. We thought even the illegal newspapers were written with a view to bolstering morale of the readers and could have been prettified but we chose not to believe that because we wanted to to hear the best and therefore well anyway one day I had to take it to the next person to read it. It was after curfew. We were lived in a quiet street and there would rarely be anybody around in the daytime and at night. It was absolutely empty. So I had to take the illegal paper over the road. I came downstairs singing and dancing because I could do the stairs in the pitch black. Knew exactly where everything was no problem. I got out of the front door. It was a moonless night. No light whatsoever. Street lights had long gone. I stepped out and I suddenly became aware that there was somebody and I could just about having got close, too close see that it was a uniform and I thought, “Oh my God what do I do?” I thought go straight on. Make out that it’s nothing so I skipped on and went over the road. I had my latchkey, the latchkey ready. I threw the latchkey in to the lock, opened it and shut the door behind me and stood with my heart beating cause if I’d gone back they would have hurt my parents if I’d gone forward the other people could have been but they could have denied all knowledge and could have said, I just fled. So that is what I did. Later on I learned it was actually a navy man and the navy wouldn’t have had anything to, to, no axes to grind, you know what I mean. That was one little event. Another little event was we had to walk everywhere because there were no longer any trams. There was were few buses in Amsterdam anyway but they weren’t there. No trams, no buses. All you could do was bikes and I’ve said something about that. Or walk. And we walked everywhere. I had an aunt who lived about two hours walking north of Amsterdam beyond the harbour. And I remember walking there and a couple of my mates came with me. We did that a lot. You could go anywhere with your mates and come in. And there was little tiny boat probably a mine dredger or something in the harbour and kids were selling a little puppy dog for half a loaf, half a German loaf. German loaf of course is quite a brick you know. They weren’t very good. On the same walk having arrived on the other side of the harbour we walked on and there was a lot of shouting and running about. We saw that a group of people was attacking a baker. He was delivering bread. That was common. That was ordinary at the time. There is nothing new under the sun is there? These deliveries from supermarkets well they were already delivering bread by cart from the bakers and as the man had arrived at his destination house and had rung the bell he’d left the hood up and there was a big cover on it, a hard cover and the people were in it, robbing him of his bread. And he ran back oh six foot of it and slammed the cover down and I remember that one loaf had spilled out from it from under the cover under the cart and I was well inclined to go and pick it up and have it but it was gone before I could even begin to make ground and it was one of those well one and a half inch high loaves because there was no yeast. There was no yeast. There was no salt. The flour was course and hadn’t really been strained or [unclear] or whatever you do. That was, that was why the bread was as it was. What we did do and did a better job of it if we got the opportunity we went into the countryside when they were harvesting and we walked behind the err what do you call it, the machine, the big machine
MC: Combine harvester?
DB: The combine yeah. We walked we used to walk behind the combines. No I’m lying we didn’t have the combines. It was a scythes job.
MC: Yeah.
DB: Remember that?
MC: Yeah.
DB: When they would be scything, the farmers would be scything and there would be somehow, there would be ears of grain on the floor. I don’t know how they got removed from the stalks but they were like the ears and from the bundles you know the sheaves and those we were allowed to pick up and put in bags and there was usually a German soldier stood in the field but they didn’t fuss with that. A field is a big thing to cover and they didn’t have that many people on hand. If, if they, if they’d done anything like shoot at people it would have been very difficult for them to keep control over all the people that were there. I don’t think they would have been too keen.
Right. Well I would hardly say this is all but I’ve?
MC: So you mentioned about the, you heard, used to hear the bombers going over. Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about that
DB: Right well at night and remember about the curfew we would go to bed early and in the dark I remember it always dark pitch all the time. In the dark you would lie listening and listen with the certain knowledge of what you were going to hear. There was no traffic. There were no cars, no buses, no trams. There were no planes of course. There wouldn’t have been any bicycles without tyres at that time of night. But what you would hear and there was some magic about it you would hear planes and the planes you would hear you wouldn’t hear the beginning of. You would, you could never say it’s started because it was either there or it wasn’t there. They, that merged into the silence so thinly because it was so far away that you couldn’t make it out. Not until there were more of ‘em and they were nearer and then you would hear the anti-aircraft guns and the anti-aircraft gun would at first, in the early stages they would be busy. You know the lights would be crossing the skies quite wildly it seemed. Sometimes they would pick one out and let’s say it was a Lancaster it would just go off and the aircraft gunners would aim at it but it would be too high. They would be invariably be too high and it would just go on. They wouldn’t lose it whether they, whether because of the aircraft moving them not being good enough to hold on to. Not that easy I think but they would lose it then and through the night you would hear that distant drone and you would know that it was power, powerful drone excuse me power, powerful drone because one aircraft would not have made that particular noise. It was the numbers that made the difference. And when you were in your bed alive [?] to it and that being the only sound you heard it had a big significance. You knew that this mattered, it mattered to our good because it was the only bit of war effort that we witnessed and it happened to the German’s detriment. That’s the other thing that would make it good. And they would drone over and over and over and we would normally not hear the end of it. Hard enough to do but by that time we would be asleep and then sometimes we would hear an aircraft. Normally a single, an aircraft come over low and land. Low and very loud. Not like the drone. Not power or anything. It would probably have been it and it would come over low and just miss the tops of the houses or steeples or whatever and it would be on its way back and you would know that there would be people sitting in there – four, five, ten, I don’t know. And they would be in danger. And they might die. And they would go over and go towards the west. They would soon be over the sea and they would all be sitting in there praying that it would stay up. That it would make it to Norfolk, Suffolk you know. The first stops. Not Lincolnshire I don’t think because that would make it such a wider angle. It would be farther to fly. We don’t know whether we ever heard one that went down. We don’t know whether we ever hear one that put down safely you know. That, that was a very relevant sort of noise [unclear]. It sort of, of course when the war ended we were in a bad way. In Amsterdam in particular because we were above a certain line. I don’t need to go in to this here but the Germans had perforated the dykes so the water had come in and much of Holland is below sea level so a lot of area had been inundated err the food [?]still could come to us very easily but somehow somewhere an agreement was reached for the allies to drop food. Now there will have been a lot of people who knew detail of that you know. The underground resistance workers. We didn’t. It wasn’t for us to know but what we did know is that one day we heard an aircraft as loud as we ever have heard one and only feet high. Came over, we could see the members of the crew and we were waving whatever we got. They were waving. We were cheering. You could hear the cheering over everything [short pause]and that was marvellous. They had dropped food and they were on their way back. They were waving to us. People were on the rooves especially where they were flat and they were waving with sheets and towels and flags. You weren’t supposed to have flags. And everything and the big thing of it was we knew it was true. Now it was true. We were liberated. It was, was enormous. And that is why it is so big in Holland.
MC: So when did you get access to the food? Did they bring it?
DB: That was, that was out of our scope. That wasn’t for us. There were authorities and the authorities took it and they were our authorities. Dutch. And they did it proper but don’t forget they didn’t throw down bread loaves they throw down flour. Threw down flour and that had to be collected, baked and the, the bread which came almost overnight which was so good. Was white. We didn’t believe that you could have white bread like that. It was white and it was high. It stood like that. We couldn’t believe that either. And then we got food at school. They provided food through the schools so that the kids could have food and well that, if you like, was it. That was almost the very last act of the war. The Germans had had enough and you can’t blame ’em. The Germans who were there had had enough and they set off walking. They walked. You see Holland is not a big country as you well know and I think it would still probably take three days to cross it on foot you know. But they set off, they set off walking home. Oh and the edge of Amsterdam was a pile and each German solder threw on it a bayonet, his gun, his rifle whatever he had. All his arms and that pile was growing all the time. We looked at it jealously because us kids you know, thought marvellous I’m going to pinch one of them but you didn’t get that chance. I suppose if I remember correctly it was the underground that guarded it, people of the resistance and, and that was, and there was only one other thing an account that the war was over. Germany had capitulated. On the corner of the Dam Square in Amsterdam where the palace is is a principal hotel and the German officers used it and they thought it would be fun. All the people had come out again. It was lively on the Dam Square lots of people walking and being merry and they thought it would be fun to aim their sub machine guns on it and start rattling and they killed a number of Dutch people on the square after the war had ended.
[tape stops]
MC: So the Dutch railways?
DB: This is running?
MC: Yes, yeah just
DB: The Germans had left the Dutch to run the Dutch railways but they made diligent use of it. They used it for freight of all sorts, armaments perhaps. I do not know. And personnel. And when it got a bit further in to the war and the underground was thinking what more could we do to help here, a difficult organisation you must understand they decided to encourage the Dutch railwaymen to go on strike and that would just throw down the Dutch railways bang [we won[?]. And I don’t know how they achieved it but they did it and the Germans were a bit, very upset about and very much crossed their line of approach, their system. And for one thing they, they did kill a number of railwaymen for the reason, for that reason and they tried to find more all the time and there were those who were just at home. My uncle was a railwayman and he and his wife also were harbouring a Jewish woman. But in the first place they had got a one escapee or what shall we call them? A person who avoids the German occupation but, or, or imprisonment but she would have gone to the camps. Well they had the one lady had a position in the eaves in case of danger. That was the Jewish woman. And when they did in fact come and they did of course they had personnel records so they could go straight to the addresses of the people who hadn’t turned up and they came to look for railwaymen and there my aunt was hiding this Jewish woman but they got her into the eaves somehow in time but there was very little time to do anything about my uncle. Well in Holland we have the custom of every day taking off the bedclothes and airing them over a chair or something so she forced my uncle on the chair because she was a very quick witted woman. She forced my uncle on a chair next to the bed and threw the bedclothes over him. There is a version of this story that the Germans came through the house all right. Never got anywhere near this Jewish woman but when one of the Germans looked and my aunt looked at him she saw him look at the pair of shoes appearing from underneath the bedclothes and she then believes that he thought, ‘no, leave them be’. Not all Germans were of course bad. I believe that they with the war being over we, you know they wish they had been. I know that I was later in Switzerland of all places and I was on an outlook post in a in a Swiss forest and there was another chap on the top there and we got talking and he asked what nationality I was and I said I was Dutch and he shrunk, he visibly shrunk and he said, “You must hate me”. You know there were good people. Not that many.
MC: So after the war you stayed in Holland?
DB: I stayed in Holland. I did a job and um but not immediately of course and actually it is a bit relevant. We had people doing health checks and a lot of us who had been hungry in the war we were underweight. And if you were underweight there was a system whereby Danish, Swedish, I think Swiss families had opened up to Dutch kids to put some weight on again and I was chosen to go to Denmark which I well enjoyed by the thought of it. That would be good for me to see this country. It would an adventure and everything and I was well keen to go but not all that long before the travel time it was full and I couldn’t go. Well that wasn’t good at all because I had to have my end exams, my final examinations from school at that time but with the prospect of going away my head teacher said he’d prepare me one on the basis of my schoolwork which would have been considerably better than than the exam so I was happy and now I had go again. So I locked myself up to study and then I got a place in England. I got a place in Lincoln. So at the late hour I was taken to a place called Woodlands near Doncaster which was an, I think an RAF base. May have been an army base and we slept in Nissan huts and I spent six weeks in Nissan huts and eight weeks with family.
MC: And how old were you at that time?
DB: Fourteen I believe and the people that had the honour of having, receiving me, for getting me were the parents of my wife. Can you imagine, I often think of this, somewhere in Amsterdam in an unknown place sits an unknown person who says who have you got down for Denmark? Oh no, no they’re full. At that moment my life changes. I don’t know that. I will never know the, and then somebody says there are a few places left in England. And that’s when my life changes, changes again. And even the, it even chooses my wife. So the war has got something to answer for don’t you think?
MC: Absolutely yeah yeah it can change your life yes. So after, after that you just stayed in Lincoln?
DB: I worked in Holland at the savings bank, the Holland Steamship Company that sailed to Falmouth and Fowey and Manchester and Liverpool and London and I got some free, free sails, sailings with and I then worked at my uncle’s who had a factory in [unclear] in a small metalwork. I then worked for an importer no I worked yeah, yeah importer, exporter of chemicals and aromas and I worked somewhere else, I can’t remember now. I mentioned I also did administration for a small dealer in household objects. Anyway I came back from time to time to – just because I liked it to be honest. I liked to do it and to come here and I had certain opportunities and I once or twice came to my then still foster parents unannounced and they put me up sweet as anything no problem. Then they came once or twice to Holland. Then Mavis came to Holland once - no with a friend and I just grew in the normal way that things grew and that really became the end. Now let’s see if there’s anything there must be something left. I had a feeling that there was something significant yet to tell you. No I can’t, I can’t think. I’ve certainly gone over all the major things that I have to tell you. It’s - unless you have any questions that -
MC: No.
DB: No my brother was the same age that I have referred, have I, have I referred to him
MC: [unclear]
DB: My brother in law but yes he was my brother in law was deported to Germany as a, as a worker. He could drive car which very few people could and he drove cars and buses in Germany of labourers or workers from their lodgings to the factories. Now my brother was the same age group but he didn’t have to go because he’d been working in the horticultural industry and his boss had quicky diverted to vegetable growth, growing veggies and he became a protected worker thereby. My sisters. My younger sister worked what that was commonly, in service and my older sister in the clothing industry and did well after the war and went to America and had a small department in a patterns factory in in New York. A company called Simplicity.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Dirk Bosch
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
Dirk Bosch was eight years old when the German army occupied his home town of Amsterdam. In this interview he describes what life was like for him during this time. He refers to seeing Dutch Jews rounded up and deported. He describes the hunger of the time and the effort to find food by travelling to the countryside and hoping for help from the farmers. He also speaks about the dangers he faced while taking illegal newspapers to a neighbour. He describes the sound of the Lancaster bomber aircraft flying overhead at night. He also describes Operation Manna.
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-30
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Format
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01:16:00 audio recording
Identifier
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ABoschD150730
Spatial Coverage
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Netherlands--Amsterdam
Netherlands
Language
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eng
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1944
1945
anti-Semitism
childhood in wartime
Holocaust
home front
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Resistance
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/158/1964/AWilsonJM160121.1.mp3
cb40304a764a6e6244db3dc9d8fc9ac4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wilson, Joan
Joan Wilson
Joan M Hill
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Joan Mary Wilson (486004 I, Royal Air Force) and one photograph. Joan was a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force and served in 5 Group.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Joan M Wilson and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2016-01-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wilson, JM
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Mrs Joan Wilson. The interview is taking place at Mrs Wilson’s home in Lincoln on Thursday 21st of January 2016. We can start. So I mean if you could tell me just a bit about when and where you were born?
JW: I was born at Nettleham about five miles from Lincoln in December 1920. The second child of my parents but my mother died when I was a baby. But I was fortunate. My father married again and my stepmother was very good as a stepmother. Unfortunately, they had a child of their own that I was very jealous of and that wasn’t too good. But my mother always, well my step mother always said I was the clever one and when I got a scholarship when I was ten to South Park they thought, you know, I was wonderful because it was a grammar school.
MC: You enjoyed your school days.
JW: I did. At South Park. I hated it until then. Because I was a very shy mousy little girl and St Andrews Church School was a big school. And the teachers didn’t mind giving you a slap if they felt like it. And then when I got to South Park it was so much gentler and quieter. And classes of only eighteen or twenty. I was a bit of a rebel because in my class of eighteen or twenty there were at least five girls called Joan. And we used to sit on the back row so that if the teacher said, ‘Joan,’ at least three of us would stand up. Until we were all separated. And that went on all the time I was at South Park. I left school when I was sixteen because my parents couldn’t afford to keep me at school any longer.
MC: What did your parents – what did your father do for work?
JW: He was a woodworker at Newsomes. A wood machinist at Newsomes. Which is probably why I love anything made of wood. Children’s toys and everything. I’ve a doll’s house in there that the children play with and all the furniture is wood. Crudely cut. But it is wood. Not plastic.
MC: So you left school at sixteen.
JW: I left school at sixteen. I went to train as a nanny. As a children’s nurse at a Church of England group down in Surrey. Unfortunately, after twelve months I caught diphtheria so I never finished the course. I caught it from then. But I became a private nanny to a little girl in Keighley. I stayed there until 1940. When I thought it was time I did something for the war effort. So I went to work in a children’s home and I stayed there until I thought somebody older could do this and I decided to try and join the RAF. Amy Johnson had been my heroine as a child. I’d always wanted to fly. And of course living in Lincoln I saw lots of planes. When I first went to work in Keighley I couldn’t understand why people on a Thursday afternoon would stand in the main street and look up at the sky. But that was when the mail plane went over. Once a week. And that’s the only plane they ever saw whereas I was used to them practicing at Waddington even in those days. Anyway, I decided to try and join the RAF. Unfortunately, at that time they weren’t recruiting for the RAF but I went along nevertheless. And because of my, they got it all wrong, but because of my nursing experience they decided yes, I could join the RAF as a nurse. I mean I’d never done any actual nursing. Only looked after children. But out of about forty of us who were interviewed that day three of us were chosen for the RAF. One because she had already got a driver’s licence or perhaps they didn’t have licences but she could drive and the other one because she had been in the navy and bought herself out and could do Morse. So the three of us ended up in the RAF. Well, one of the reasons I wanted to join the RAF was because I wanted to see something of England or Scotland. You didn’t look any further than that in those days.
MC: Because at that time it would be the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force.
JW: It was. WAAF. Yeah. WAAF. And anyway the three of us remained as, more or less, friends for quite a long while. We all ended up in Blackpool training as wireless operators despite us all wanting to be different. The last thing I ever wanted to be was a wireless operator. It had taken me two years as a Girl Guide to learn Morse. There I was having to do it all over again. I had six months at Blackpool and then a few weeks — I think it was Compton Bassett but I’m not really sure. It was somewhere down south anyway. And that’s when we got our posting. And I thought at last. Imagine what it was like when I found I was posted seven miles from Lincoln. To Morton Hall. I couldn’t believe it. I really couldn’t. Partly because if the journey was going to take more than eight hours you were given rations. And I was given rations. But the journey from London to Lincoln didn’t take eight hours. I spent most of it at home. And then eventually reported.
MC: Did you do any basic training? You know. Drill training.
JW: Oh yes. That was in Gloucester. Somewhere Gloucestershire. Yes. I did. Oh yes I learned how to march and how to salute and form fours and all the rest of it. Yes. That was before I was posted. Yes. I missed that bit out. I did my basic training and then I was posted to Cranwell. Just to fill my time in until my Morse.
MC: Until you learned Morse.
JW: Training started and I had about three months there just wasting time. Running errands and but at least I did see the college and things like that.
MC: So your wireless operator training was in Blackpool?
JW: That was the Morse training yes.
MC: Morse training.
JW: Yeah. And also [pause] I can’t remember the procedure and something else. There was three different courses going on. The Morse was done at the Blackpool Tower Ballroom. And that’s where we got paid as well. At Blackpool. At there.
MC: So how long were you there for?
JW: Six months. Three months before Christmas so that we got Christmas leave and then three months after and then after that, as I said it was a few weeks. I’m almost sure it was Compton Bassett. It was some place like that.
MC: The radio school was at Compton.
JW: Yes. Well it would be there then. For seven weeks I was there. And then I passed out from there at eighteen words a minute.
MC: There was another one at Yatesbury as well.
JW: No. I’m almost sure it was.
MC: It would be probably Compton Bassett. Yeah.
JW: And as I say, then to my horror I was posted to Morton Hall. I got to Morton Hall and of course I was the lowest of the low. ACW2. All these other blokes on my watch they’d all had oak leaves because they’d been in for the Dambuster raid and all this, that and the other and there was me straight from training school. So most of the time I ran messages, I made the tea, I did the cooking on night watch. I mean would you believe it when you were on the night watch and I can’t remember what hours they were we were issued with rations. Well, it was so ridiculous because I mean we had a meal before we went on and there was breakfast when we came off. And really all we wanted was a cup of tea in between. So my parent’s benefited by extra liver, and sausage and various things that we were given and didn’t eat. Rather than waste it. And I was the only one who lived locally. It did mean I didn’t take part in much that went on in the way of social activities because I went home. And as I say my time actually in 5 Group was very humdrum but I did have one real excitement. On D-day plus one we had to keep radio silence so most of us just fiddled around with spare Morse keys you know. Playing about. There was only one magazine in the section that we could copy Morse from and it was called, “Maria and the Red Barn.” It was a real penny dreadful. I don’t know what the story was about but the cover was a very lurid one. A half naked woman covered in blood. Anyway, we were all fiddling about. Really bored. Doing nothing. And the radio officer burst in to the room and said, ‘Stop bombing. Stop bombing. In plain language to all. On all your keys.’ And what had happened was that our lads had gone further and we were bombing them. And that really was the most exciting day I had at Bomber Command.
MC: So when, when did you go to Morton Hall?
JW: Well now let me see. The end of January would see my — the end of March would see my course. March. April. May I should think.
MC: This was what year?
JW: ’44.
MC: ’44. Yeah.
JW: By then.
MC: So you joined. When did you actually joined did you say? Because you said about 1940 you said you decided you’d want to join.
JW: Yeah. But it was after that that I actually got in.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. That’s fine. That’s fine.
JW: I can’t remember.
MC: No. No. It’s —
JW: I’ve got my pay book somewhere. But I don’t know where.
MC: So you were at Morton Hall during D-day.
JW: I was. Yes. Yes. But while I was there I put in for every posting possible because I wanted to travel. Eventually I did get the posting I wanted. To the Far East. And I went to Ceylon. Sri Lanka now. I had —
MC: What year was that? That was in ’44 was it?
JW: It was ‘44/45 [pause] yes. Because in ’46 I went to Hong Kong. So that was after the atom bomb had been dropped. And I think I’m one of the few people who agree with the atom bomb being dropped. But while I was in Ceylon we had some of the people who were ex-prisoners of war came in. And although they’d already been in hospital and supposed to have been well fed they were still skin and bone. And they wanted to touch you. They were, in a way, not quite normal. It must have taken them a long while to get back so if the atom bomb stopped one person from that I was pleased. It was a horrible thing. Really horrible. But something had to be done.
MC: So you were a wireless operator in Ceylon doing —
JW: I was a wireless operator. Still more or less doing what I’d done here. Taking wind messages. It was an odd set up because there was only one person on duty at a time. So I was utterly spoilt because I was in one room and all the weather people were in the other room and I was taking mostly wind reports from all over the world. I can’t remember the name of them now. I know Port Moresby was one of the places that we took wind reports from.
MC: So whereabouts in Ceylon were you?
JW: Colombo. And then the last two months I was in Kandy. So I saw the Temple of the Tooth.
MC: So you enjoyed your time in Ceylon.
JW: I loved it. I loved it. I loved Ceylon. And if I’d ever had the chance to go back I’d have liked to have done. My parents, my daughter of course was brought up on stories of Ceylon so as soon as they could she and her husband they went out to Ceylon for a holiday. But, anyway part of the reason that I loved Ceylon apart from the country and the people was the fact that I joined what we called the Rover Ranger Scout Crew. I’d been a Girl Guide and one of the first notices up in the section when we arrived there was an invitation to join this group. I was the only WAAF that went. There were quite a lot of nurses and WRENs in the group. And it was fine because we weren’t allowed out after sundown without a male escort. How the hell do you find a male escort when you’re just suddenly dumped there? But I was lucky because one of the crew would always come and collect me and sign me out and bring me back. Unfortunately, after a week in Ceylon I was involved in a motor accident. We [pause] we were invited to a unit that was the, it was a signals unit and it was more or less a case of you, you and you go. So I was one that had to go. They needed some females because it was an all male unit. And on the way back from there we were in one of these lorries that had the sort of canvas sides. You know the sort. A frame with a canvas on and at the last minute I needed to go to the loo. So I was sitting right on the end and I had to sit on someone’s knee because by then it was full. And a small car smashed in to us, quite near the WAAF’ery. And I was thrown. I sensed it was coming somehow and fell limply. And I got up. I was covered in blood but it wasn’t mine. I had a scratch. Well, a big hole in one leg. Two people died and I know one, I’ll never forget her, the girl, her head was smashed in and her brains were coming. It was a horrible sight. Something you never forget.
MC: No.
JW: Never. I don’t know what I did. I was in a daze. I know two or three days later one man came to me. An RAF bloke came to me and said thank you for trying to help so and so. I said, ‘Well I honestly don’t know what I did. I was in a daze myself.’ Just being involved in this accident. Seen two people dead. Not knowing. I was the only one who actually walked away from it. Everybody else was in hospital. But I had nightmares for days after. But I got over that. One very exciting thing that happened while I was in Ceylon. The crew were invited to this man’s bungalow. When I say bungalow it was a great big rambling place. Beautiful grounds. He had an orchid garden where there were orchids from that big to that big in rows. Like you get the tulips at Spalding. Actually it put me off orchids because these big ones were almost like rampaging beasts. I loved the little ones. But the meal, a meal was laid out for us in these ground on these long tables. Beautiful white tablecloths. Boys dressed in sort of raj’s uniforms served us. One — and there were little patties in dishes on the tables. One of the crew took a bite and it was so hot he had a drink out of the fingerbowl [laughs] But I can’t remember much about the meal but afterwards the owner of the place asked a few of us to go with him and we went into the bungalow and he showed us this sword and it was the sword he had been knighted with by George VI. And the hilt had a sample of all the jewels you could find in Ceylon. They were only semi-precious but it was absolutely beautiful. I’ve no idea who he was. No way of finding out because I’m the last of the crew to be alive I’m afraid. Everybody else has gone.
MC: So you refer to the crew. How was the crew made up? What was the crew?
JW: They were all Scouts. Ex-Scouts.
MC: Oh the Scout crew. Yeah.
JW: Yes. All ex-Scouts or ex-Guides. Yes. Because that was in the days when you could be a Scout until you died whereas nowadays you’re a Senior scout and somebody else and somebody else. Because of that my daughter was brought up very much in Guiding and now she’s in Scouting. My two youngest, my two, three eldest great grandchildren are all in Beavers. And so it goes on. I’m rambling aren’t I? Anyway, that’s more or less —
MC: So you — when did you leave Ceylon?
JW: I left Ceylon after the atom bomb had dropped. 1946.
MC: And then you went to Hong Kong.
JW: And I went to Hong Kong. I had six months in Hong Kong. It was like a building site.
MC: Really.
JW: There was nothing. I mean the people were camping on the pavements. They were skin and bone. They were camping on the roofs of buildings. And I did meet someone there. Eugenie Coupland who had been in the camp at the end of Hong Kong. What was it called? I can’t remember what it was called now but it was the civilian internment camp. I did go up to it which [pause] there was a lady whose husband had died in the camp and she very much wanted to go up and see his burial ground. And so the crew took her up. We’d managed to get hold of a jeep because it’s high up. The camp was. I wish I could remember what it was called now. It was right on the edge of the island. I mean it was a sheer drop in to the sea from the camp. And we took this lady up and we saw this horrible place. But Eugenie Coupland who had been interned there said they weren’t actually badly treated. It was just that food was so short. She had her little boy with her and she said the English girls who’d been in Hong Kong for Christmas. It was Christmas Day when Hong Kong was taken and she said they were fantastic. These were girls who had been at boarding school. Probably never done a thing for themselves in their lives. But she said they were wonderful. They started schools for the children. They gathered grass and any greenery they could find and cooked it down for extra food. And she said they did get the, occasionally, Red Cross parcel and they’d save the brown paper for the children to draw on and everything. She said they were absolutely wonderful these girls.
MC: So at that time that must have been quite an experience for you to be in Hong Kong. You know. To see what was the aftermath.
JW: It was. It was. And while I was there I joined another Rover Ranger crew there. Once more I was the only girl in that one because there weren’t very many women sent out there. The ATS came out actually and we, we had to, you know, be good to them. Serve them and all the rest of it but they only stayed two or three days and then they went off again. They couldn’t take the heat. We also had some American girls and the same thing with them. They couldn’t take the heat. Whereas I could stand the heat. It’s the cold I can’t stand. Then I go and marry someone who spent his time in Iceland don’t I?
MC: So when did you meet your husband then?
JW: Oh a long while after the war.
MC: Oh I see. So from Hong Kong you came home.
JW: I came back to England. Yes. And went to work at Ruston’s of all places.
MC: So what year was that? When did you come back?
JW: 1946.
MC: You came back in ’46.
JW: Yes. The end.
MC: And you came out the air force then.
JW: Yes. October I think it was. Yes. I got home just after my mother’s birthday. Yes. So that would be October 1946. And I was very thin then because of the heat. Well, about what I am now I think. I mean after that I started packing it on.
MC: So you —
JW: I went to my old job in Keighley for a little while. By which time the little girl I had taken earlier and taught her first lessons was away at boarding school but they had another little girl. So I had a year with her before she went off to boarding school and then I came back to Lincoln and went to work at Ruston’s. And that’s where I met my husband but not until 1956. My daughter was born a year later. And my husband was one of those who would not allow me to go out to work. So we struggled on his money but he was adamant.
MC: What did he do?
JW: He worked at Ruston’s. He was in the office there. But he was quite badly wounded during the war. All down his left side.
MC: And what was he in?
JW: He was in the Anglians. And he went over in D-day plus one. He was one of the ones that got bombed but by the Americans. Not the British. And it was the Americans actually that saved his life eventually. That and penicillin because it was just at the experimental stages. He [pause] he was shelled and the whole group were wiped out. The American burial party came to collect the bodies. And they collected Alf and he said, ‘I’m not dead yet.’ So they managed to get him to, onto a transport. And my husband said that was awful because they were these flat things that they used to carry bombs on. They just were laid on that and he said if you rolled off that was it because there’d would be others following. You’d be in convoy and they’d not stop to pick you up. Anyway, he got back to England and was more or less messing around until the end of the war then. We married and my daughter was born thirteen months later. We only had the one child.
MC: You said, let’s go back a little bit. You said you were in Morton Hall.
JW: Yes.
MC: Part of 5 Group was that?
JW: Yes. It was 5 Group headquarters.
MC: Oh right. Was it? Yes. Of course it would be. Yes.
JW: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MC: So and so when you went to Ceylon who were you with? What —
JW: South East Asia Command I suppose.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. I guess that would be the case. Yes.
JW: Yes.
MC: Yeah. And the same with Hong Kong.
JW: Yes. Mountbatten was my boss.
MC: There you go, you see. Yeah. That’s, that’s lovely.
JW: Yes he took the Victory Parade you know.
MC: So travelling to Ceylon and Hong Kong. How did you get there?
JW: To Ceylon we went by boat. And it was Christmas. We had Christmas on the Mediterranean. People had told me that the Mediterranean was always blue. It wasn’t. It was dark grey, murky and horrible. And it was supposed to have been cleared of submarines and we got one following us. A stray. Didn’t do anything. But it did mean that we had to keep silence. And the boat we sailed on was called the Johan van or von Oldenbarnevelt. John the old man in the field somebody translated it as. We had to learn the Dutch national anthem phonetically so that we could sing it for them because it was a Dutch boat. Very clean boat. And we had [pause] took us four weeks to get there. And we arrived and we were paraded in the boiling sun. No shade on this parade ground at the WAAF’ery. And we were told if we got sunburned it was a criminal offence. And I thought yeah and here we are. I mean luckily I’m dark but some of the fair girls were fainting. But —
MC: And you’d just arrived as well.
JW: Yes. Yeah. Mind you I mean we got used to a certain amount of heat on the boat. We had been issued with shorts. Men’s shorts. One of the first things we did when we got to Ceylon was to be told to go to a certain tailor’s and take somebody with you and be measured for trousers and shorts. Had to wear trousers because of mosquitoes of course.
MC: Yeah. So the, from Ceylon you went, how did you get to Hong Kong then? Did you go by boat?
JW: No. We went by flying boat.
MC: Oh. Flying boat.
JW: Yes. Yes.
MC: That was an experience.
JW: It was. There were twelve of us went. There should have been thirteen but for some reason or other one girl had to drop out so there were twelve of us went. And for some reason or other my friend and I were allocated the crew’s quarters where there were two bunks. The rest sat in the tail of the plane. I never went so I’m not sure exactly how they slept or if they slept. Because we went overnight and I know during the night I woke up and I saw this, the assistant pilot throwing things out of the window. That’s how low we flew in those days. You could open a window [laughs] And he was throwing things out of the window. And I remember thinking now are we going to crash and are they throwing things out. Anyway, I thought well if I’m going to die in my sleep. So I turned over and went to sleep again. And when I woke up the next morning apparently they were things to tell which way the wind was blowing ready for when we landed. And we landed —
MC: So how long was that flight then?
JW: Twelve hours. Well eleven if you count the fact that we altered the clocks.
MC: The clocks.
JW: But it was twelve hours actually in the air yeah. And that was by Flying Boat. So we came to rest on the lake and I was violently sea sick. One of the few who hadn’t been air sick but I made up for it. A jeep came to take us off. As I say I just managed to vomit in the sea. So that was my arrival in Ceylon.
MC: You don’t know what type of sort of Flying Boat it was. I suspect it probably would have been a Sunderland or something.
JW: It was a Sunderland. It was a Sunderland Flying Boat.
MC: Yes.
JW: Yes. Yeah. So they tell me. But that’s how I arrived in Hong Kong. We did have a stopover in Singapore on the way to Hong Kong. And they tell me it’s a beautiful city now but what I saw of it it was a really filthy hole. There was the [pause] oh dear what do you call the place where we went for a cup of tea. A man’s name. It’s very famous and I can’t remember it. And you know it as well. Everybody knows it. We did go there. And because I’ve told you about the crew well we were looking around the cathedral in Singapore and then this voice hailed me. It was one of the crew and they were going home but they were going over the Pacific. They were going that way. So they’d done around the world. But I was on my way to Hong Kong. I can’t get —
MC: I think it might have been Raffles.
JW: It was Raffles. Yes. I’d nearly got it hadn’t I. We did manage to get there.
MC: You had tea in Raffles.
JW: Yes. Yeah. But as I say as regards the city I thought there was some beetle juice all over the place. You know, they chew beetle juice and then spit it out and it’s like red blotches all over the place. And there was, and they spit it out then you see. And there was chewing gum. It was very very dirty but they tell me it’s beautiful now. Of course they’ve stopped spitting. That’s not allowed. I mean it went on in Ceylon as well. But then it rained often enough to wash it away.
MC: So the climate in Ceylon wasn’t, it was hot but quite often —
JW: I could take it. I loved it. Yes. Yes. And I liked, I liked the job I was doing there. As I say I was taking wind reports mostly. As I had done and I did eventually get someone to take my test so that I did become an LACW or else I should have ended my time as an ACW2.
MC: So you finished up as an LAC then.
JW: I did. Yes. Yes. Yes.
MC: Well that’s lovely. Thank you Joan. I mean it’s a super story.
JW: I hope I haven’t wasted your time.
MC: So you talked about Morton Hall. Were you doing the same thing? Wind. What reports were you doing?
JW: Mostly wind reports yes.
MC: The were wind reports.
JW: Which I was able to take to the ops rooms you see. Yes. They were [pause] I think there were six, six digits. Do you know I can’t really remember now but in Ceylon I was taking two hundred word reports you see because it was from all over. They would gather them up and send them over.
MC: Yeah. That’s a lovely story Joan. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Joan Wilson
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2016-01-21
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00:37:26 audio recording
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Mike Connock
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eng
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AWilsonJM160121
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Sound
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Joan Wilson was born in Nettleham near Lincoln. She joined the Women’s Auxilliary Air Force and served as a wireless operator at RAF Morton Hall. The day following the Normandy landings, she had to send an urgent signal to all aircraft, to stop bombing because the Allies had progressed further than expected. After the war she was posted to Ceylon, where she witnessed the state of prisoners who had been held by the Japanese. After Ceylon she was posted to Hong Kong.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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China
Great Britain
Sri Lanka
England--Lincolnshire
China--Hong Kong
Temporal Coverage
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1944-06-07
Contributor
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Julie Williams
aircrew
ground personnel
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
prisoner of war
RAF Morton Hall
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/278/3431/PJamesDWK1701.2.jpg
b5e9d0060de6ccdc493b23953cb58e00
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/278/3431/AJamesDWK170120.1.mp3
ea9c15273fffc4beb797d784feaed5ba
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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James, Douglas Walker Keeston
Douglas Walker Keeston James
Douglas W K James
Douglas James
Jim James
D W K James
D James
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Douglas Walker Keeston "Jim" James (b.1925). He flew operations as an air gunner with 460 Squadron.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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James, DWK
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Douglas James, named Jim, Flight Lieutenant, Jim James. The interview is being conducted at Mr James’ home in Branston, Lincoln, on Friday the 20th of January 2017. Also present at the interview is Mrs -
[Other]: Nancy.
MC: Nancy James and Mr -
[Other]: David Schofield.
MC: David.
[Other]: Schofield.
MC: Schofield. So thank you Jim, for agreeing to this interview. Just want to start with a bit about your life history, so if you could tell me a bit about when and where you were born.
DJ: Where I was born?
MC: Yes.
DJ: I was born in India.
MC: Were you born in India! When was that?
DJ: Near Calcutta.
MC: When was that?
DJ: 1925.
MC: 1925. And what date? What date was that Jim?
DJ: I’m ninety two near, coming up to ninety two.
MC: Ah, right. And you, what did your parents do then, for you to be born in India?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: What did your parents do for you to be born in India?
DJ: My dad was in a plantation first, Plantation Manager, and that’s how I came to be born, and he went out to India to do the job and so I was born out there.
MC: And how long did you live in India then?
DJ: I came to England when I was nine years of age.
MC: And did, you obviously went to school in India.
DJ: In India, yes, a junior school, yes. I remember one occasion, we went for a picnic, we’d only be about nine or ten. We went to, in the grounds of a cathedral, to have a picnic, and as we were there an earthquake started. Oh my God! Steeple came tumbling down. Luckily we’d moved well away now, but big cracks appeared everywhere, the ground was, but it scared the hell like, out of us, oh, and the steeple kept tumbling down.
MC: Were there many people injured?
DJ: No, no, nobody injured.
MC: Oh, that’s very good.
DJ: Actually we all moved very quickly. We heard the, felt the ground tremble first and then down came the steeple.
MC: So you came to England when you were nine years old, your father moved back here, you came back with your father and mother? You came back to England with your father and mother.
DJ: Yes. My dad had a lot of illness and when we got to England he suffered a lot of trouble with his throat. I think a lot of it, later, was through his smoking. He used to smoke very strong tobacco, he even smoked pipe tobacco!
MC: You can’t believe it these days, can you, no.
DJ: I couldn’t believe it. Digger Flake, he used to smoke. He died eventually of cancer, of the throat.
MC: So whereabouts, when you came back to the UK, did you live?
DJ: In Withington, Manchester. South Manchester, Manchester 20, Withington.
MC: So that’s where you continued your schooling.
DJ: Yeah. I never went to high school though.
MC: So how old were you when you left school then?
DJ: When I left school?
MC: How old were you?
DJ: Fourteen.
MC: Fourteen.
DJ: I missed, missed my scholarship because I’d been ill so long, had tonsilitis, tonsilitis, tonsilitis through coming to this country. This country didn’t really, didn’t gel with me, you know, it was cold.
MC: So what did you think to your schooldays in England then, in relation to your school in India?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: What did you think to your schooldays in relation to your school in India?
DJ: Oh, I haven’t got many recollections of India.
MC: Now what about in the UK, in England, school in England. Did you enjoy your school days?
DJ: Oh, I did, very much so. I remember once we were playing out in the playground with the sports master and we were playing cricket, and he hit this ball, hard, it bounced straight over the wall, over next door’s garden. So I was picked on to go and fetch it again. So I had to go all round, now instead of going all round the road, I thought I’d just get it over the fence there, but there were spikes and lo and behold as I got one leg over the wall, over the spikes, the wall collapsed and I was stuck on spikes, in my bottom and my hands, and I didn’t dare move. And the sports master called time and they wondered where I was, he says ‘go down and see if he’s in the toilet’. He went down to the toilet and then he saw me stuck on the spikes, he said oh, and he started crying. So he went to the sports master and said ‘you you’d better come and help, he’s stuck on the spikes’. So the sports master came down straight away and took me on the bus to the Royal Infirmary and there they cleaned me up, all the spike holes and everything else. It was quite an experience. [Laughter]
MC: It certainly was!
DJ: They had to probe all the holes that had been made in my bottom because they were rusty you see, so they had to sterilise every hole with a steel thing, and they gave me a penny for every stitch they put in. [Chuckle]
MC: How old were you then, when that happened?
DJ: I’d be about nine. Nine or ten.
MC: So you left school at fourteen. What did you do when you left school then?
DJ: I went to the Amalgamated Society, Society of Woodworkers, I went in the post, they put me in charge of the postal room and I stayed there for a while ‘till my call up came. I said goodbye and cheerio.
MC: So you were called up were you?
DJ: No, no I volunteered.
MC: You volunteered. What year was that?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: What year was that you volunteered?
DJ: Oh blimey. I can’t remember.
MC: You say you volunteered.
DJ: For air gunner.
MC: You volunteered for the Royal Air Force. Did you choose air gunner ?
DJ : Pardon?
MC: Did you choose air gunner or did they offer that to you?
DJ: No, no, I’d set my heart [emphasis] on air gunner. I’d seen posters of air gunners with their full guns and everything, that impressed me. I remember at the Selection Board, the Wing Commander there said ‘do you know what the life of an air gunner is?’ I said ‘I haven’t a clue’. He said ‘eight hours! That’s the average length of time an air gunner lives’, he said ‘and this letter isn’t signed by your father either, so you’d better get home, take this letter home again and get your father to sign the letter saying he agrees to you volunteering as an air gunner’. So off I took it, back home, my dad’s signature was very easy to copy, so I copied his name and signature, saying that I agree that he, I should go as air gunner and that was it.
MC: How old were you then?
DJ: I was eighteen.
MC: You’d reached eighteen had you.
DJ: Eighteen and a half.
MC: So what made you join the Royal Air Force? I mean you could have been a gunner somewhere else, but you wanted to be an air gunner.
DJ: It just appealed to me. Oh no, I was in the Air Training Corps as well, you know, the ATC. That’s what made me go in the Air Force.
MC: So where did you first go? Your recruit training. Where was that?
DJ: My what?
MC: Your recruit training, when you first joined.
DJ: Oh, London.
MC: In London.
DJ: St John’s Wood.
MC: Oh yes.
DJ: Got injections and all, bloomin’ hell, played hell! Oh! They murdered [emphasis] us with those injections.
MC: What about drill training and basic training, did you do a lot of that initially? Your basic training, drill training? Basic training.
DJ: In London, yes.
MC: That was all in London.
DJ: St John’s Wood, that was the basic, yes, and then we went up to Bridgnorth.
MC: Bridgenorth. And what was Bridgenorth? What did you do at Bridgenorth?
DJ: We did very little! Very little! Most of the time we spent drinking. [Laugh] I remember.
MC: But what was Bridgenorth, was that for your trade training, your gunnery training or was that?
DJ: My gunnery training, Dalcross, Inverness.
MC: You went from Bridgenorth to up to Inverness. You did your gunnery training at Inverness.
DJ: At Dalcross, yes. That’s where the Queen’s Flight, it lands still. When she goes up to Edinburgh, she lands there still.
MC: So was that where you had your first flight, your first flight?
DJ: Yes. It was a thrill and a half!
MC: You loved it.
DJ: But I remember when I got on to, for experience, on the squadron, I got in the rear turret, I thought the damn thing was going to fall off! [Laugh] When they turned the turret to the wind, the wind was hitting it like that [slap] and I was going, oh my god this is going to fall off!”
MC: Was that in, when you went to Inverness?
DJ: No, that was on the squadron.
MC: So what did you, what aircraft were you flying in, at Inverness?
DJ: Wellingtons, oh, yeah, Wellingtons, yes. Oh no, no, it wasn’t, Ansons, Ansons.
MC: Oh, Ansons. Yeah. So how long were you there doing your gunnery training?
DJ: Just about, I think about two months, three months and from there, Dalcross, I went to a squadron then.
MC: Did you not go to a Operational Training Unit?
DJ: That was, yes, before the squadron.
MC: Whereabouts was that? That was, you were saying about your lessons - you weren’t paying attention?
DJ: No, I wasn’t paying attention. He caught me once climbing the girders when he was lecturing. ‘You – come down here you fool!’ I remember that very clearly.
MC: So from your gunnery training you went to Wellingtons at?
DJ: Wellingtons was Seighford.
MC: Ah, Seighford, yes.
DJ: Near Stafford.
MC: That was, was that an Operational Training Unit was it?
DJ: No, no, it just a training unit.
MC: Gunnery training, yes. And you flew Wellingtons there.
DJ: Yes. We baled out there.
MC: Did you! What was the reason for that?
DJ: The Americans shot us down. [Laugh] We’ve been sworn to silence ever since! Our Station Commander, when we got back to our unit, said you are not to tell one person [emphasis] that the Americans shot you down. They are our allies and we don’t want any friction, so all seven of you, keep your lips sealed.
MC: Was that in a Wellington?
DJ: Yes. What happened? We went on a leaflet raid, telling the, propaganda raid, telling the French population: keep a stiff upper lip, do everything possible to upset the Germans and they said it’ll be a quiet trip for you, go over Paris, come back, okay. Paris knows what height you’re flying at and everything. So we went there, we went to Saumur, Saumur, fifty miles south of Paris, and coming back the Americans let fly at us. Bang, bang! First of all they shot the port engine out, caught on fire straight away.
MC: It was ground fire was it?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: It was ground fire that they shot at you? Not attacked by another aircraft.
DJ: And they knew what time and height we were coming at, and we weren’t allowed to tell anybody.
MC: Yes, I notice you put just baled out in your log book, yeah, and so that was, then you went to Ingham?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: You went to Ingham.
DJ: England?
MC: Ingham. Gunnery Flight. It says 1481 Gunnery Flight, at Ingham.
DJ: I can’t see that, upside down.
MC: And again you, so you must have gone from Seighford to Ingham. Where did you go from there?
DJ: From Seighford, we went to a bomber station then.
MC: Oh, is this one the one at Sandtoft?
DJ: Yes.
MC: Sandtoft. What squadron was that?
DJ: It wasn’t a squadron, Training Unit.
MC: Ah, it was a Training Unit was it, oh right.
DJ: A first experience for the captain, skipper of four engined aircraft.
MC: What about crewing up? What about crewing up? Whereabouts did you crew up?
DJ: Stafford.
MC: Stafford.
DJ: We were all in a jumble in a hangar just walking round. And a pilot would come to you: would you like to join my crew as an air gunner, wireless op, anything else? And that’s how you crewed up.
MC: Did you know any of them beforehand?
DJ: No, not a soul, just whether you liked the look of the skipper or not, so you made up a crew.
MC: Been told many stories about crewing up. They just put you all together and you picked your own crew.
DJ: Yeah.
MC: It was quite amazing, yeah. So when you went to Sandtoft, you picked up your other crew members ‘cause you, on Wellingtons you would have five crew, so you picked up new crew members did you, for seven man crew, on the Halifaxes, Halifax?
DJ: Lancasters.
MC: You did fly Halifaxes though, didn’t you.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: You did fly the Halifax in training.
DJ: I did fly, We didn’t like it. They give us a choice, said you can either fly the Halifax or the Lancaster, take your pick. So they sent us off on one trip in the Halifax and we didn’t like it.
MC: That was at Sandtoft. That was at Sandtoft?
DJ: Yeah
MC: That was there. And then you, from there you went to Lancaster Finishing School.
DJ: Binbrook.
MC: Hemswell?
DJ: Sandtoft.
MC: Hemswell.
DJ: Hemswell, that was the Finishing School.
MC: Yeah, and you liked the Lancaster.
DJ: Then we went on to the Lancasters. Posted to squadrons then.
MC: How long did you spend at Hemswell?
DJ: I think about six weeks, not long.
MC: And that was your regular skipper then, was it?
DJ: Yes, yes. Getting to know each other, you know.
MC: Who was your regular skipper then?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Who was your regular skipper?
DJ: Doug, Doug Jolly.
MC: Ah Jolly, yes, ‘cause I know his -
DJ: One coincidence, when we crewed up. He said ‘now when we’re in the aircraft you call me skipper because there’s two of us called Doug and that could be very [emphasis] confusing, so in the aircraft you call me skipper, never [emphasis] Doug. The Doug is the rear gunner’ so he made that quite clear because it could be quite awkward.
MC: So you got posted then to the squadron.
DJ: Binbrook, yes.
MC: At Binbrook, 460 Squadron.
DH: Yes. The Lincolnshire Wolds, now I’ve got a tale to tell you about Binbrook. We were going on a raid to Germany, we had a full bomb load on, and the skipper, off we went down the runway. I was in the rear turret, I thought we’re travelling very fast considering we’ve got a bomb load on, and we were oh, absolutely moving! And then I heard the skipper saying, ‘help me’, to the engineer, ‘help me pull this aircraft out!’ At the end of the runway there’s a valley so you had to have loads of power to make sure you never fell down into the valley when you took off. The silly engineer hadn’t locked down the flaps and by the time we came to take off, the flaps had come up again and he was struggling: ‘Help me Help me! Get this’, and because we weren’t climbing, we weren’t getting up. So the engineer came to his help and he got on the handle there again and at last we cleared the bay but we came to very near disaster, and the skipper didn’t let it go at that. When we got back, he said ‘you could have cost us our lives’, to the engineer. ‘Do you realise you could have cost us our lives? But you hadn’t locked the flaps’. He said ‘yes, I’m sorry’.
MC: Very close, easy done, well, not easy done but it’s very close to disaster.
DJ: He said ‘sorry isn’t good enough for me’, and he said to the rest of the crew ‘do I change him? Do I get another engineer?’ We all said ‘look, we are all entitled to one mistake, he made one, I know it could have cost us our lives but we’re all alive, I say we keep him’. And he went round the whole crew as to whether we keep him: we all said yes.
MC: And he learnt his lesson.
DJ: Yes. [Laugh]
MC: I notice your first raid was to Essen then. You can remember that?
DJ: Yes. Oh, the town on fire, oh blimey. We wondered how anybody lived [emphasis] there, you know, with the bombing. The whole town seemed to be on fire, but it obviously wasn’t.
MC: Must have been quite a shock really, as your first raid.
DJ: It was, it was quite a shock; I became immune to it.
MC: Then you went to, then you, number two was Bonn.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Number two was Bonn, you bombed Bonn, did a raid to Bonn?
DJ: Oh yes.
MC: And then you went on to Cologne. That was a big raid in Cologne, wasn’t it?
DJ: That was a big raid, very big raid. It’s a sight when you’re up there and you see a thousand bombers in the air at the same time, it’s awe inspiring, it really is, and it gives you, a bit of, you know, as though they’re guarding you when in actual fact they’re just joining you. You feel very safe when you see a thousand bombers round you.
MC: Did you have a regular aircraft?
DJ: Yes. U – Uncle.
MC: I noticed you did fly a few different ones but most of the raids were U – Uncle. Did you have a logo on your aircraft? Did you have a picture?
DJ: No, the skipper never, we were never asked if we wanted one. I can’t remember them refusing. They all had something painted on them, most of them.
MC: Did you, on the Cologne raid, did you come straight home from that? Because I noticed it says you returned from Hethel.
DJ: Hethel, yes, we had fog, we couldn’t land at our aerodrome we had to divert to Hethel so that’s where we went. Oh, and next day, as is customary when you land at a different airport to shoot up the Air Flying Control, you know, and our skipper was mad as hell, he was an Australian, and we all took off, taking a dive at Air Control and pulling away going, but they were all Australians you see, they’re mad as hell, honestly, and they were getting a bit too near Flying Control so they started firing off reds to say [loudly] ‘no more, no more flying here!’ I think they got really scared thinking they were going to hit the Flying Control.
MC: That’s an interesting point. How come you came to join an Australian squadron?
DJ: They just happened to be there.
MC: Yeah, obviously there to make up numbers.
DJ: The whole squadron was Australian, the skipper. The Station Commander was Australian, Group Captain Hutton. [glass knocked]
[Other]: Oops. Tissue.
DJ: Taking turns.
MC: When you were shooting up Flying Control you said?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: When you were shooting up Flying Control.
DJ: Yes. One after another. They eventually got so scared they fired off the reds: ‘No more you mad idiots – go away!’ And we took off, the skipper came up to Flying Control and I swear he was going to go right through it, and at last second he pulled up and all my ammunition in my turret all came out the boxes all over the floor, oh my god! And all he did was laugh his head off. He says ‘that was a good one, wasn’t it’, and I said ‘yes all my blasted ammunition’s on the floor!’
MC: So your next, after Cologne, your next night operation was Münchengladbach.
DJ: Oh yes. There was nothing much to report on much of them, with them, you know, you just had to keep your eyes out looking for fighters coming at you.
MC: Did you meet much flak on that?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Did you meet much flak on that?
DJ: Oh bloomin’ hell, yes.
MC: There’s always flak is there.
DJ: Oh, always flak. The groundcrew mend the holes in the aircraft. The shells would burst about three foot away from us.
MC: And then operation number six was Gelsenkirchen. Remember much about that?
DJ: No, no. There was just one further away, the most, long one, was about ten hours’ flight.
MC: Ah, you did, and you did Nuremburg. Nuremburg.
DJ: No, further even.
MC: Yeah, but Nuremburg was a long operation, wasn’t it.
DJ: Oh yes.
MC: That was a -
DJ: A heavy, you didn’t know whether you’d come back alive or not, you went to Nuremburg, it was so heavily defended.
MC: Then you went on to Hannover.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Hannover.
DJ: That was a dolly that was, no trouble there. [Laugh]
MC: And Hanau. Where was Hanau? H a n a u. Hanau, I don’t know that one.
DJ: Doesn’t ring a bell.
MC: A fairly long one, it was a six hour operation. Operation number nine was Merseburg. Merseburg. That was a long operation - eight hours.
DJ: Yes, and in the turret it gets tiring, I assure you. But you just had to keep alert, you know, your life and the life of the six crew members depended on you as air gunner, you had to be wide awake, every minute of flight.
MC: From the stories I’ve heard, that was the secret, was to keep awake, keep alert.
DJ: And they gave us tablets to keep us awake.
MC: Wakey wakey pills! [Chuckle]
DJ: They worked all right, they kept us awake and what we liked when we got back from a raid, [cough] we had to go to the briefing room to be examined, what we saw over the target and we saw tables and tables full of whisky, little cups of whisky for everybody, all lined up. But the point is, quite often or not you were too damned tired to enjoy it, you really were, you just wanted your bed!
MC: Did you have a meal when you got back?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Have a meal when you got back?
DJ: Yes. Yes. Sausages.
MC: Oh, sausages!
DJ: Oh god, I swore I’d never eat another sausage! Sausage this, sausage that, sausage this, oh!
MC: So operation continued. How many operations, all told, did you do?
DJ: Twenty nine.
MC: Twenty nine.
DJ: [Cough] The skipper did thirty. He had to go on his first op [cough] as a – [cough]
MC: You saw one sight of a?
DJ: A Lancaster, ablaze from one end to the other, she was diving down to its death, crew and all, nobody baled out. I’ll never forget that sight.
MC: Oh yes. They do have an effect on you.
DJ: It did yes. You could see, from the rear turret you had a grandstand view of going down, down, straight down to the earth. You couldn’t live in that one, you know, in the end.
MC: What about your experience of night fighters? Did you come across the night fighters?
DJ: We came across but none attacked me, not one, throughout the whole war not one fighter attacked me.
MC: Didn’t they?
[Other]: What about the?
DJ: End of the war this Messerschmitt 110 flew over us but he didn’t attack us, he just flew about fifty feet above us. He was obviously going home.
MC: This was at the end of the war. Was it?
DJ: It didn’t want to bother, you know.
MC: He didn’t want to get hit.
DJ: And I didn’t open fire. I think if I’d opened fire on him I’d have shot him down because he was so low, just over us. It was so near the war ending he must have thought he’d had enough now.
MC: So Mannheim, number ten, that was a third of the way through, number ten was Mannheim.
DJ: Mannheim, yes, they all, the towns were heavily [emphasis] defended. There wasn’t one you could go and say oh this’ll be easy. Every [emphasis] town was heavily defended. They put the guns right round the town in a circle and they put them so you, they knew that by the laws of average they’d hit somebody, because you had to fly through this barrage of flipping flak and they said well that’s the way to do it and that’s what they resorted to eventually: box ack-ack, make a box of it you’d have to fly through the ack-ack and either your number was up or it wasn’t.
MC: I notice you did the Politz raid. The oil refineries at Politz.
DJ: Yes. That was a long raid, wasn’t it.
MC: Mmm. Yeah. Eight and a half hours. But one of the longest obviously was the infamous one of Dresden.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Dresden, you did. That was the long raid.
DJ: That Churchill took, and give Churchill this. Every raid had to be agreed by Churchill, right. Every raid had to be passed by him. At the end of the war he denied everything, being connected with the war even, he denied that he’d agreed to have a Dresden, because Dresden thought they’d get away with it, they told us we’re a undefended town now. It was right near the end of the war, so don’t bomb us, we’re undefended now they said, but we did, we had one and wiped them out.
MC: And what about Harris. Bomber Harris, Arthur Harris.
DJ: Oh he was a belter, he really was. He really was great. He gave us such heart, he used to come round the squadrons saying hello. He was a South African, Bomber Harris was, oh he was wonderful. He gave everybody encouragement all the way through.
MC: Yeah. You did a few more raids after Dresden. Dortmund, Duisburg, Essen again. Daylight raids then, you started some, later on you were doing daylight raids. Daylight raids, you did some daylight raids to Essen, and Dortmund. How different was it to be doing a daylight raid to a night raid? Obviously you could see the aircraft more, the other aircraft.
DJ: [Cough] Yes, yes, daylight raids were a dodgy thing because they could see you and you held your breath when you were put on notice on the notice board you were down for a daylight raid, oh bloomin’ hell, and you just got on with it. At North Weald, and the skipper was Douglas Bader, and we were just landing there for an overnight stay and the next day an American colonel landed at the aerodrome, and Bader was a very good looking man, very handsome fellow and female officers all used to drool over him. When they were at the dining room table he’d always have two female officers sitting at his right and left of him. He knew he was good looking, you know, and he had been such a good hero with those bloomin’ legs of his. It was amazing how he could move, absolutely amazing.
MC: So you, how did you finish up at North Weald then?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: How did you finish up at North Weald then?
DJ: Oh, we finished up at North Weald for the night, and this colonel landed and he said to Bader - we were at the dining table - he said to Bader, oh no, Bader said to him, to the colonel, ‘I bet I can land quicker, by taking off and landing, quicker than you can do in your Mustang’. So he says ‘okay, I’ll take you on a bet’. Mind, I don’t know how much they laid the bet for, but everybody in the station turned out to see this. Bader took a, lost the toss, he had to go first. He took off in his Spitfire, turned it over on its back and landed straight down and everybody gave a great cheer, we thought that was the winning thing. Oh, not for this American in the Mustang, oh my god, he made it talk, he took off and just turned it straight over on its back and landed, and won it hands down! Where the Spitfire had to do a turn and land, this Mustang just went over, bang!
MC: Just done a full loop, ground loop. So your last operation was Kiel, I noticed.
DJ: Kiel.
MC: Kiel.
DJ: The port.
MC: That was the –
DJ: There’s a battleship there.
MC: Battleship, the Admiral Scheer. You sunk that.
DJ: Yeah, we didn’t, not, didn’t hit it, but the bombs dropped right round it, caused such an explosion, you know, it tipped the battleship over. We didn’t hit it; nobody hit it.
MC: So, it’s like you were saying about, you hear many stories, and you saying about when you said you baled out, you know, during training.
DJ: Oh, that was hair raising. It was, they told us before we took off, at Seighford this was, and we took off in the Wellingtons, this will be a dolly of a trip for you, you know, no problem. You’ll all go there, drop the leaflets and come sailing back home. Oh no. Six of us went, one got back. It was, we had to go over Paris, fly past Paris and go further down, Saumur.
MC: Oh yeah, you said Saumur, yes. So when you, whereabouts were you when you baled out?
DJ: Oh, when they let fly at us, the Americans, they shot the starboard engine straight off on fire and skipper said and ‘the other one’s been hit as well, so I don’t think we’ll make England, we might have to bale in the sea’. Coming back we were losing height rapidly, where the port engine was leaking very badly, he said ‘I doubt if we’ll get to England’, he said ‘we might have to land in the sea’. Oh, we were all holding our breath and we staggered along and the starboard engine was out, the skipper put the fire out and we were losing height very rapidly and a lot of the equipment for the wireless op was all shot up and everything and he said ‘I doubt we’ll make England chaps, keep your fingers crossed’. So we all kept our fingers crossed and he said ‘now we’re crossing the coast we’re going to cross the Channel now, we’re going, yes, we’re on our way, now we’ll see whether if we land there or not’. And he couldn’t, the wireless op couldn’t get in touch with any station, all his wireless equipment was buggered up, so he said ‘yes, yes we’re gonna land! We’re gonna have to bale out’, we couldn’t find out where we were, to land it. So I said oh my god’, baling out, oh bloomin’ hell, that put the wind up me that did, oh, that put the wind up me.
MC: In a Wellington how did you bale out? How did you get out?
DJ: Through the nose, all of us went out through the bomb aimer’s.
MC: So you had to come back from your turret and go out the nose. That was in England of course, and whereabouts did you land – where’d you come down?
DJ: Oh. Blimey, it’s gone again.
MC: No, that’s okay. So you landed safely; you were okay.
DJ: Yeah. We did, the skipper said ‘get out quick! She’s going to cut the last engine and we’ll have to crash’, and crashing in a Wellington was awful, because a fabric aircraft, he says ‘bale out quick!’ So we got out of the nose of the aircraft, went out one after the other. They always said, say count three before you pull your zipper. I said ‘one’ - boom! [Laughter] I was that frightened honestly, I just said ‘one’ – I still had the handle in my hand when I landed! Oh, then when I landed, I landed very heavily and I went back and knocked my head on the floor and knocked myself out, and when I came to I thought I was in Germany. I thought right, do what they tell you, roll your parachute up now, in a tight ball, put it in the hedge so the Germans can’t find it. So I went and did this and I started walking. They said now, when you bale out in England you find the nearest house and ask for help, using the telephone. I walked and I walked and I walked. Eventually found this farmhouse. I said ‘can I use’, oh, I had to knock at the door and the upstairs window opened and a gun popped out. ‘Yes, who are you?’, ‘I’m an RAF flyer’, ‘how do I know you are?’, I said ‘we’re not allowed to carry any identification except my blood group’, yeah. This was conversation was going through the window down, and his two daughters were there with him, and his wife. I said ‘we’re not allowed to carry identification on any raid’, I said ‘you’ll have to take my word for it’, I said ‘can I use your phone and he said ‘we’re not on the phone’. [Laugh] Oh no, and I’d walked flippin’ ages! Because they’re very strict about that, if you bale out, you land, you make for the nearest telephone, for the police to know where you are. I said ‘oh blimey, I’m not walking any more, I’ve had it’. I had on all my full flying kit and everything on, you know, I thought I’m not walking another inch and the farmer said ‘you can go to sleep on this couch, you know, if I bring you some blankets’ and what have you. I said ‘thank you very much, I can’t walk another inch’, still had my flying boots on. Oh, I just looked at this settee and just zonked straight out you see. Next morning, knock on the door, he answered it and I heard American voice saying, ‘Say man, have you seen English flier round here?’ And she said ‘yes, he’s asleep on the couch here’. ‘I’ll give him the couch’ he says, he was a big American sergeant, said ‘I’ll give him couch, we’ve been looking all night [emphasis] for him’. Said, ’well he’s been here’. ‘Well he should have phoned us!’ She said ‘we’re not on the phone’. ‘Oh’. But it didn’t save me from the rocket, he said’ we’ve searched all night long for you and here you are comfortable’.[laughs] Oh I slept like a log.
MC: So they took you back to base did they?
DJ: Yes. They took me back to American base who had shot, I didn’t mention that they’d shot us down. I thought no, I don’t want to start a war here. [Chuckle] So I was taken to this American base, given a hearty breakfast, and then this plane came, landed to take us back to our aerodrome. Oh, but he really didn’t half play hell with me for not telephoning. I said ‘I’d walked for ages and don’t forget’ I said to them, ‘I had my whole flying gear on as well! How much longer do you think I could walk?’ They said ‘walk till you find a telephone!’ You couldn’t win an argument, you couldn’t, no matter what you said, you couldn’t win it.
MC: So of all the operations you did, does anything stand out particularly that was the worst, you know? I mean I know you did some long ones.
DJ: Nuremberg was very hot, very hot. Oh yes, they really let fly at Nuremburg, but they were all one, much alike, you know, because the flak was so thick when you got to each station, each town, you couldn’t tell the difference; the ack-ack was terrific. You just thought well if they hit us, they hit us, that’s all there is to it. You knew it would be a short life then, if they hit you. [Pages turning]
MC: So finishing your tour at um, you finished your tour at 460 Squadron?
DJ: Yes.
MC: What happened when you finished your tour? Where did you go from there?
DJ: I went to India, at my request.
MC: Oh you got posted to India!
DJ: Yeah. After the war was over I went straight to the Adjutant, I said ‘I wanted to be posted to India, Adj, can you get me there?’ I wasn’t commissioned yet, and he said ‘you want what?’ I said ‘I want to go to India’. He said ‘you must be mad, everybody’s leaving India!’ I said ‘well I was born there, I still have relations there, I want to go to India’. He said ‘I can get you on an aircraft tomorrow if you want’, he said ‘we’ll get rid of you that quick! I said ‘okay’. So they posted me to India.
MC: So whereabouts in India were you born?
DJ: Near Calcutta.
MC: And when you got posted back, where did you go to?
DJ: I was born at Asinsol, about seven miles from Calcutta, I was born there. My mum was a nurse, a midwife.
MC: So when you got, after you finished your tour and you got posted back to India, whereabouts did you go to?
DJ: India. First posting was down to Poona. [Cough] You’ve heard of Poona, everybody’s heard of Poona. The RAF were banned from the Officers Club there. You know what they did? The mad RAF? They got cigarette packets and lit them and put them on the floor, the dance floor, and pretended it was a flare path and set fire to the building, set fire to the whole damned building! And so we were banned from there evermore. [Laughter] And that was our visit to Poona.
MC: So when did you get your commission?
DJ: Commission.
MC: Did you get commissioned?
DJ: Yes. I got to Flight Lieutenant.
MC: When?
DJ: I got commissioned when I was at Binbrook.
MC: Ah, when you was at Binbrook. You got your Pilot Officer.
DJ: But authorities to me, had been told by Air Ministry don’t pass anybody for a commission right, we’ve got enough officers [cough] well that isn’t very heartening. I said to the Adjutant, ‘can I have the papers to be, for a commission’, he said ‘don’t you know the war’s over and we’ve got loads of commissions?’ I said ‘I do sir, but I still want the papers’. He said ‘well why waste our time?’ I said ‘I’m sorry but it’s my prerogative to ask for papers for commissioning’, and my mid upper said ‘yes, and I want papers too’. He says ‘all right, all right, I can’t stop you’, and he gave us papers, the forms to fill in for commissioning. But they’d had the letter saying don’t [emphasis] pass anybody for a commission, all officers had been told this. I said to the Adjutant, ‘I want to hear it from the hips, from the lips of my Station Commander that I’m not going to be commissioned, not you sir’. I said ‘you’re the Adjutant all right, that’s fair enough, but I want to hear it from the lips of my CO about my not being commissioned’. ‘All right, all right, waste our time’ he said. ‘I’ll arrange an interview with the Station Commander’, who was Group Captain Hutton, he was an Australian, and we both went for commissioning. Harry was turned down, he came from Wigan to tell you the truth, and when he spoke you couldn’t understand a bloody word he said, [laugh] he was that broad Lancashire, absolutely broad, I thought that poor fellow’s going to interview him! And he came out and he was in tears. I said what’s wrong Harry and he said ‘he hasn’t passed me for a commission’, he said ‘I’ve done the same number of ops as you’, I said ‘I know you have’, but I knew why they had turned him down, because the next officer would be another Australian, wouldn’t understand a word he said. But I didn’t say that.
MC: But you got yours.
DJ: Yes, ‘cause I went to the next officer and they said, gave me an interview. He said ‘do you know we have had a letter from Air Ministry, not passing anybody [emphasis] for a commission’. I said ‘I have sir, but I just want to hear it from you, if I’m going to be turned down that’s fair enough, but I want to hear it from you, not from the Adjutant’. He said ‘you’re damned determined, aren’t you’. I said ‘well, I’m just seeking what I think I deserve, I’ve done a tour of ops now, I’m as good as anybody else now’. He said ‘all right’, he says, ‘for your damned nerve I’ll pass you’ he said, ‘but I know I’ll get a rocket from Air Ministry for passing you’. I said ‘thank you very much sir’, this was Group Captain Hutton, so he passed me on to the next one. And then [cough] and interview again, same story, ‘do you know we’ve had a letter from the Air Ministry not passing’. I said ‘I’ve heard all this sir, I just want to hear it from the person who’s got authority to fail me, that’s all. I’m not complaining’.
MC: So your commission you got after you’d finished your tour?
DJ: Yes, and then I got up to fly-.
MC: So when you went to India, did you fly in India, were you flying?
DJ: No, no, I was on legal duties then.
MC: Oh were you!
DJ: Yes, Courts of Inquiry, formal investigations, and Formal Investigations. I went on the legal side of the RAF and I did many court martials, I had to prosecute. However, first of all they sent me to an admin school, which was Poona, and from there they posted me to, on the legal side of the RAF and I did for many years, that’s all I did for the RAF after the war.
MC: Did you find that interesting?
DJ: Very [emphasis] interesting, very interesting, oh I really did. But to tell you the truth, it starts making you change, change your mind, because eventually you get to an RAF station, you look at a person you try and weigh them up whether they’re a crook or not! You do, you get the habit of doing this. I thought oh God! But I did it, the whole of my RAF career was on the legal side, court martials.
MC: Yes. So what was your title, you know, what was your role, what was your title? Was it legal officer or what did they call it?
DJ: No, no, just my rank, Flight Lieutenant.
MC: But you was just on the legal side. So how long were you in India for then?
DJ: Oh, I went from India, I still had another year to do when India declared independence and they said ‘you’re not going home you know, you’re going on to Singapore’. [Laugh] Okay. So they posted me from India to Singapore. Very good posting, that was a very good posting. I loved Singapore, it’s a smashing country, really is. And I went on, became PA to an Air Vice Marshal.
MC: That was in Singapore?
DJ: Yes. He was a belter, he really was a cracker; he was an excellent officer to work for. But I wished he hadn’t picked me to partner him when he played tennis every time! [Laugh] ‘Jimmy, you’re partnering me’, ‘oh, not again!’ But you can’t say no to an Air Vice Marshal can you [laugh].
MC: So Singapore. How long did you spend in Singapore?
DJ: I spent a year, then I came back to England and then I went to Singapore again, asked them to post me again.
MC: Oh, right.
DJ: I asked for Singapore again. They posted me back to Singapore.
MC: Can you remember when that was, what year that was?
DJ: The war ended ’45, it would be about ’47, ’48. Singapore was a very good posting, very good, I must say, especially when I became PA to the Air Vice Marshal. That was a wonderful life. His wife was a great person too, she was a big help to him. Every night she used to leave her house and come into the Officers Club and play gambling with us! Mrs Patch, she used to, we were playing liar dice, every night she’d be down and joining us all and having a drink, she was more natural than any woman you could meet, and she was an Air Vice Marshal’s wife, but oh she was so natural. She said to everybody, ‘Call me Mrs P, not Mrs Patch, just say Mrs P.’ So we called her that. [Pause]
[Other]: Very interesting wasn’t it.
MC: Oh, Singapore, you were second tour in Singapore, second time in Singapore, what happened after then?
DJ: Came home then, left the Air Force.
MC: Oh did you. When did you finish in the Air Force?
DJ: Then I got a letter from the Air Council saying we are pleased to announce, to write to you, to tell you we have awarded you the rank of Flight Lieutenant until you, pass. So they gave me the Flight Lieutenant for the rest of my life. They said they didn’t often do it.
MC: So what medals did you have?
DJ: European medals, German medal, Peacetime medal, I forget what, and Holland, we got a medal from Holland.
MC: Oh did you!
DJ: For our helping them during the war ‘cause they were desperately short of food, in Holland, they were desperate for food.
MC: Yeah. So it’s the 39 45 Star, yeah, France and Germany Star, yeah.
DJ: Went to, to where their gunners were, in Holland, Holland, and oh, they were ever so grateful to the British, they said you saved us, dropping that food to us. We were desperate, the Germans were eating all the food and we were getting none.
MC: And then, and you got the commemorative medal from the Belgian Government as well. So that was, when did you meet Nancy then?
DJ: At RAF Cheadle, she came to a dance. She was working in a computer factory and she came with all the other girls to the dance at the RAF base at Cheadle in Staffordshire and I saw her walk down, she was dancing with another girl and she came past me. I was Adjutant of the station and I looked at her and thought I fancy that girl – she’s a beauty. So I excused them and started dancing with her and then I saw her home and then we married, after a while.
MC: So what year was it you met her, you first met her then? You said you was the Adjutant.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: You said you was the Adjutant then.
DJ: Of the station, yes. That was at RAF Cheadle, Staffordshire.
MC: That was after you came back from Singapore?
DJ: Yeah. When I was a free man! [Laughter]
NJ: I’m behind you!
MC: So when did you get married then?
DJ: What year Nancy? Sixty odd years.
NJ: Oh good grief. I don’t know, I keep losing track of these events. Was it ’49. Yes, 1949 you got married and had a child in ‘52. I can remember that.
DJ: She had charming parents too. Very nice.
MC: Going back to Cheadle. You got posted to Cheadle after you came back from Singapore, as Adjutant there, and that’s where you finished your service was it?
DJ: No, no, I finished my service in Singapore.
NJ: We went back to Singapore.
DJ: We went back to Singapore.
MC: Oh, after you was at Cheadle. Yeah, ah, I’m with you now, yes.
DJ: Cheadle to Singapore. It was such a good posting. You fell over yourselves trying to get posted to Singapore.
MC: So did they have any aircraft?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: What aircraft did they have at Singapore, then?
DJ: Not flying.
MC: It wasn’t a flying station.
DJ: No, no. They had aeroplanes there, yeah. But.
MC: You weren’t flying.
DJ: I forget what they were. All sorts of landing, you know, all sorts of planes were landing.
MC: I would think most of them would have been transport aircraft as well.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Most of them would have been transport aircraft.
DJ: Yeah.
MC: Say that again Jim, they did what?
DJ: After the war we had a roundup, all the Chinese guards, and we got them for trial. Put them to trial. All sentenced to death, this was at Changi Jail, and they were all hung, for cruelty to British officers, British personnel. Oh they were just, but it was so horrible, the Air Marshal wouldn’t let me read the book where all this was recorded, he wouldn’t let me read it, he said ‘no, it won’t do you good’, he says ‘take my word, they’ve taken it from this book, but you’re not to read this book under any [emphasis] circumstances’. So it must have been pretty bad. They must have asked the prisoners of war what did they do, you know. They did all sorts of things, did terrible things.
MC: This was the Japanese.
DJ: Yes. They seemed to be heartless, honestly, but I wasn’t allowed to read the book. [Other voices]
DJ: Straight after the war the skipper came to us, said ‘I’ve volunteered the crew’, he said, ‘to go to Japan, to fight the war there now’. So we all agreed to go with him, we said ‘we’re all behind you, to go on to Japan now and fight Japan’ and they sent us on leave, seven days’ leave and during that time they dropped the atom bomb on Japan, so the war was over completely worldwide. So we didn’t go to Japan, we didn’t have the pleasure of seeing the atom bomb go.
MC: When did you hear about that, I mean where did you hear about the atomic bomb?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Where did you hear about the atom bomb, were you, you were at Binbrook when you heard about that were you? You were at Binbrook when you heard about the atom bomb, being dropped.
DJ: Yes, yes. Er, no, I’d left Binbrook then, yes, I’d left Binbrook. I think I must have been – I was on leave.
MC: Ah, you said you were on leave.
DJ: I was on leave when they dropped the atom bomb. There must have been a lot of soul searching by the President to agree to drop that bomb: he knew what horror would come from it. It must have taken a lot [emphasis] of courage to say I’m going to give the sanction for the atom bomb to be dropped, you know, what with the results they had. Oh my god.
MC: We talked about your raids and all the raids you did.
DJ: Excuse me. Thank you, Nancy.
MC: I mean how did you personally feel about what you were doing?
DJ: I was very thrilled, I really was. I felt really proud [emphasis] that I had taken such a part in the war. I didn’t have any sympathy for what we were doing, not like Churchill who changed his mind. He dropped us all in the cart eventually. I’ll never forget Churchill, and he didn’t mention the RAF in his speech after the war and that hurts our skip, our Bomber Command boss, it hurt him terribly that Churchill didn’t mention him. Churchill took exception because we bombed that last place in Germany.
MC: Dresden?
DJ: Dresden, yes. He took, he’d asked us permission for it and then he tried to backtrack out of it, said ‘I have my hands clean, I don’t know anything about it’. That hurt the Commander in Chief: he went back to South Africa a broken man. He really was.
MC: Well Jim, I thank you very much for talking to me.
DJ: It’s been a sheer pleasure.
MC: No, it’s been a pleasure to hear your stories, and it’s been great. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AJamesDWK170120, PJamesDWK1701
Title
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Interview with Douglas "Jim" James
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:04:16 audio recording
Creator
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Mike Connock
Date
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2017-01-20
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas (Jim) James was born in India and returned to England when he was nine. After school, he joined the RAF as an air gunner, forging his father’s signature on the application. Jim carried out twenty nine operations on 460 Squadron, flying in Lancasters. He tells of his training and his crew and discusses some of his operations which included the bombing of Essen, Cologne, Nuremburg and Dresden. He describes having to bale out following a leaflet drop over France when his plane was shot down accidentally by American allies. After the war, he was posted to India and Singapore and worked for the legal department of the RAF
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
India
Japan
Netherlands
Singapore
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--London
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Essen
Germany--Nuremberg
India--Pune
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
460 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Halifax
Lancaster
promotion
RAF Binbrook
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Dalcross
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF Sandtoft
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/122/3534/ATaitJT160610.2.mp3
9f0edd1b79ed6f88dccec2e22a8097de
Dublin Core
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Title
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Tait, John
John Tait
J T Tait
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Warrant Officer John Thomas Tait (1923 - 2019, 175522 Royal Air Force), his service and release book and four photographs. John Tait flew 34 operations with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe as a wireless operator / air gunner.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Tait and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-10
Identifier
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Tait, JT
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by [name of the lender] and catalogued by [name of the cataloguer].
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is John Tait and the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place at the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archives at Riseholme College on Friday 10th June 2016. Also present at the interview are Alan Tait, Mrs Beryl Tait and Ken Tait. OK John, what I want you to do is just tell me a bit about um, when and where you were born for a start.
JT: Well I was born in America in Helena, Montana and my mother was English and my Dad was Scottish. Anyway my mum had had enough of travelling abroad so she wanted to come home. So when I was five she brought me to England and that was fine. Took a while to get used to people, people getting used to me actually. But anyway, when the war started we —
MC: Yeah, go on John, it’s just, what did your parents do? What was —
JT: My dad was, he was a retired cattle farmer and my mother was a retired school teacher.
MC: So how old were you when you came to —
JT: I was five.
MC: Five.
JT: Five, yes.
MC: So you started school in the UK?
JT: I started school in the UK, yeah.
MC: And that was? What year were you born?
JT: 1923.
MC: 1923, yes. So this would be ’28 when you came to us.
JT: It was, yes.
MC: And, so what about school days in those days, what was that like?
JT: Well school days, well I went to a local school, I didn’t start until I was six but it was very good, a local school, I enjoyed it and then when I was eleven I went up to, oh hell where did I go, oh God, isn’t it awful. Temple Road Central Boys School in Birkenhead. It was a secondary school and I went there and very good, I was accepted even though I was from the outer districts because they were nearly all lads from the city. But we got on ok, I did very well. In fact I played football for their team, but anyway I went to school there ‘til I was fourteen and then I took me O levels, except they weren’t O levels then but it were whatever. Anyway then I went to work in an office to train as a cost accountant, me dad knew someone who had an office and he would train — so I went to train as a cost accountant. Anyway, when the war broke out I was eighteen years of age and I didn’t like being in an office all day so I volunteered for the RAF.
MC: What made you choose the RAF?
JT: Well there were two pals of mine, lived in the same road as me and they were both wireless operator air gunners and neither of them came back, they both lost their life. One was Derek Jones and the other was Bob Christie, Bob Christie, yeah. They both lost their lives as it happened, but I was the only one of the three that came back. But anyway I volunteered for the RAF —
MC: So that was when you were eighteen?
JT: Eighteen yes.
MC: Oh right.
JT: I went to Padgate for six weeks, square bashing and then we went to Black — [pause] While I was there I volunteered for air crew and um, I went to Blackpool on a wireless operators air gunners course.
MC: Hmm.
JT: I forget how long it was but anyway I did a tour there and then I went to Stormy Down to do an air gunners course and then I qualified for that and I was posted to a place called Bruntingthorpe which, where they trained lads straight from school
MC: Was that an operational training unit?
JT: Pardon?
MC: Operational training unit?
JT: Operational training, yep. So I —
MC: Do you remember which one it was?
JT: Bruntingthorpe.
MC: Bruntingthorpe.
JT: Bruntingthorpe yep. RAF Bruntingthorpe yeah. Anyway, I did me tour there and the next thing was to go to a higher, err, higher course for wireless operators up north. So I went up there and while we were there they were sorting out the air gunners. Well I got picked to go down to Stormy Down to do a six week air gunners course, which I did and I enjoyed. Anyway, having finished that we then went to Market Harborough, I think. And the skipper was there . Dougie Milligan came round, he was picking his crew for the Anson.
MC: And that was where you crewed up, at Market Harborough?
JT: That’s were I got picked by Dougie Milligan to go with him, yeah. That’s right. We went, we did, we went from there to —
MC: Market Harborough, that would have been the OTU I suspect.
JT: Sorry?
MC: Was the Operational Training Unit at Market —
JT: That was, the OTU at Market Harborough, OTU, it was yeah. And we went from Market Harborough to um, —
MC: Can I just interrupt you there. Um, at Market Harborough was that just the five crew?
JT: We hadn’t got, yes it was. We hadn’t got a full crew then.
MC: Because that was on, oh, what aircraft was that?
JT: It was on Wellingtons.
MC: Wellingtons, yeah.
JT: Because we were on Wellingtons yeah. Anyway, we picked up a oh, um, bit of a gunner [?] I think there.
MC: And a flight engineer?
JT: And that’s what we did. We were on Wellingtons. We hadn’t got a flight engineer, [coughs).
MC: Where did you pick those up?
JT: Picked them up at Market Harborough, picked two up at Market Harborough.
MC: Oh you did pick them up at Market Harborough did you?
JT: We didn’t pick the [pause] flight engineer, we picked him up later because they hadn’t got flight engineers on Lancs. But anyway, as it happened when he joined us and we went to um, from there to, oh, somewhere in North Lincoln, I don’t know. Oh I know, we went to go on Stirlings, that’s right at Scampton. We went to Scampton.
BT: Oooh.
JT: That’s right. And the skipper converted on to Stirlings and we picked up a, oh, [pause]
MC: Flight engineer?
JT: Flight engineer.
MC: Yup.
JT: And his name was Jimmy James and he came from Liverpool, funnily enough but he was a good lad. He’d been, he came from South Africa actually. He’d been a mechanic out there for years, he was, and he wanted to join air crew to bring him back home to train so he joined us and they brought him back to train as a flight engineer which he was delighted and he was with us until the end of our tour.
MC: So was that at a Lancaster finishing school or a conversion unit?
JT: Oh yes, it was Stirlings, Lancs finishing school yeah.
MC: Yeah, oh yeah, it was a heavy conversion unit.
JT: It was a conversion school.
MC: Yeah, yep, hmm.
JT: They were horrible things, big [laughter]the Stirling but we flew quite a lot of trips, not operations but flights. And then we went from having completed our course on Stirlings, we then went to [pause] we went on the squadron, that’s right.
MC: Did you not, you must have gone and converted from Stirlings to Lancasters?
JT: We converted to Lancasters, we didn’t convert to Lancs until we got to the squadron.
MC: Oh didn’t you?
JT: No I don’t think so. I’m just trying to think —
MC: You went to the Lancaster Finishing School I think, was that, um did you not go to —
JT: It was Scampton [unclear] converted on to Lancasters at Scampton, that’s right, yes we did, yeah. And err, that was when our crew was formed, we’d got a full crew.
MC: Yep.
JT: [pause] I’m sorry if it’s a bit bitty.
MC: Oh no, no it’s not. It’s fine, it’s no problem and so you got, so um, I mean up until then you got posted to your squadron but all the crew was made up.
JT: That’s right. There was, Dougie Milligan picked us up from, originally from Bruntingthorpe, that was it. [pause]
MC: Just going back slightly, back to when you joined up, um, as a teenager what was life like growing up just before the war. I’m sorry to have —
JT: It was fine, well I used to, I enjoyed football, I played a lot of football but of course when the war started we were classed as aliens.
MC: Oh!
JT: Because I was an American citizen, and we used to have to report to the police station once a month and that’s why I said ‘blow this I’m going to join the RAF’ so I did. [laughter] Yeah.
MC: So having been to the err, operation training unit, conversion unit, you were then posted to err, —
JT: Skellingthorpe
OTHER: Skellingthorpe, 50 Squadron.
JT: Yeah, that’s right.
MC: Can you remember arriving at Skellingthorpe, much about the station?
JT: Aah, we thought it was a bit out in the wilderness but err, yeah, we did no it was great, when you‘ve got a crew around you, you were quite happy.
MC: Yeah by that time they’d got the concrete runways and things like that.
JT: Oh yes, that’s right.
MC: Hmm, yeah. So, can you remember much about your first operation, all your operations, your first one for instance?
JT: No.
MC: Did it not stick with you.
JT: Doesn’t ring a bell. As I say, I did thirty three all with Dougie Milligan and I did one as a spare bod with a skipper named Mike, oh Pete Stockwell.
MC: What was his name? Pete?
JT: Peter Stockwell. He was a flight sergeant, he’d gone with me from Skellingthorpe to there, to train and they didn’t just trust him on Wellingtons so they put him on the Stirling. He would fly, flying a fighter, that’s right flying Spitfires 'til he pranged one and they told him to get off the squadron and get back to the squadron so he asked me would I go back with him and I said ‘of course I would’. So we formed another crew up and that was it.
MC: I mean you did some hairy operations. Does anything stand out in particular?
JT: Um, no, err, [pause].
OTHER: You said that, you know —
JT: The Ruhr Valley was the worst.
MC: Rurh, yeah, yeah [unclear]
OTHER: Well some of the operations you did were, you know, you did Munich –
JT: Pardon?
OTHER: You did Munich didn’t you?
JT: That was the longest, the longest trip was Munich I think.
OTHER: Yeah, Munich.
OTHER: Did you do Berlin?
JT: No.
OTHER: Yes, at the time, ‘cos at the time you were joining it was the lead up, leading up to D-Day.
JT: That’s right.
MC: So you would, did you do some, you obviously did some invasion support operations?
JT: Well we did some in France, we did a few trips in France, that’s right, that’s right yeah.
MC: Yeah, so the actual raids themselves you don’t remember much about?
JT: The operations? No. Ah, well —
MC: How did you feel, I mean did you err, —
JT: Probably scared stiff to start with, but err, —
MC: Yeah.
JT: But you got used to
MC: That’s what I’m trying to get at, you know, how did you —
JT: That’s right the first trip I always remember the first trip. I can’t remember where it was but I couldn’t believe it and I looked out of my rear window and I could see the fires down below and I said to Jimmy Marlow, ‘Jim come and have a look’. ‘Not bloody likely’ he said, ‘I’m sitting here’ and he was sitting on the table drinking his tea. He wouldn’t have a look out of the window.
MC: And Jimmy Marlow was the?
JT: He was the, he was the navigator.
MC: The navigator, yes.
JT: He was a sergeant or a flight sergeant then. Yeah. He’d worked for the Air Ministry and he wanted to get a commission so they could give him a position to go back to, when he went back from the RAF. Which he got in the end.
MC: So I, I gather Doug Milligan was a good skipper then?
JT: Oh, Dougie, yes.
MC: He got you through thirty three operations.
JT: He was dead on, he really was, he was.
MC: And you all had a good crew, you all got on well.
JT: Very good. We were lucky with the crew.
MC: Yeah, what about —
JT: We lost our rear gunner for a while at the end because he got frostbite and he was invalided out of the RAF and we got another, just for a couple of trips, but err, yeah we got on great.
MC: Yeah, what about socialising in the area round Lincoln?
JT: Oh.
MC: Don’t give too much away.
JT: You know Lincoln was a wonderful place to socialise, people were so friendly, it was great, they really were.
MC: You used to go out most evenings?
JT: Most evenings we’d be down the pub, local pub. In fact there was one night we were all out on the booze and they decided to put an op on and they sent the RAF Police round Lincoln calling for all members of 50 Squadron to come back and we went back to the squadron but we, some of them were half canned. Dougie Milligan wouldn’t bother, well he wasn’t a great drinker. He liked a drink but he wasn’t a great drinker, but the rest of us were [laughter].
MC: [laughter] you made full use of the local hostelries.
JT: That’s right, there’s a lot of nice people in Lincoln.
MC: So what, which, where did you used to go? Can you remember?
JT: I can’t remember the name of the pub. There was a pub down the road from Skellingthorpe and there was a lady there, she invited us in one night. Her husband works, he was working away, working on a job or something and she had two or three daughters or nurses who visited and she invited us to join them for a party one night and um, the night they put the operation off we were in Lincoln, she was sat in the back kitchen with me feeding me coffee to sober me up before we went back [laughter]. She was great, a lovely lady and she was, oh what was her name? No, it’s gone. She was lovely, the people were lovely they really were.
MC: So you got around in Lincoln?
JT: Oh yeah, no complaints
MC: Yes. It’s err, you were a wireless operator?
JT: Wireless operator, yes.
MC: Can you, I mean [pause] so you was a WOP air gunner, so I mean I gather you had your 21st birthday while you was on the squadron?
JT: Oh yes.
MC: So um, how did you celebrate that?
JT: [laughter] down the pub [laughter].
MC: [laughter] So they looked after you did they on your 21st?
JT: Oh yeah, had a fabulous time.
MC: So what did you get up to on that then? Anything special?
JT: Nothing, well apart from going for a drink in the pub, that’s about it, that’s all we did anyway.
MC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JT: We hadn’t got enough money to go buying it or wining and dining but we went for a pint, yeah.
MC: Can you remember much about your C — Commanding Officer? Whoever your CO was?
JT: I’ll tell you who he was, not the Commanding Officer. Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Mike Beetham.
MC: Uhuh.
JT: He, I think he was a flight lieutenant on our squadron and he was a flight lieutenant a very, B Flight, no sorry, I was on B, he was on A Flight. Yeah, Mike Beetham was on A Flight. He was a great bloke, very approachable, very pleasant chap.
MC: Did you know any of his crew?
JT: Well I did at the time but I don’t now. But —
MC: Sir Michael Beetham, so as I say, Reg Payne was Michael Beetham’s wireless operator. So you may know him.
JT: Oh well that’s somebody I’d perhaps recognise.
MC: How’s your morse these days then?
JT: Sorry?
MC: How’s our morse these days, morse code?
JT: I haven’t done any, dit dah dah. I can do it though.
MC: I’m sure you can.
JT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So you, obviously you finished your tour, you say you did thirty three?
JT: I did thirty three and then I stayed on, we were all, the crew was then dispersed, they was —
MC: Yeah?
JT: And I stayed on and did one trip with Pete Stockwell.
MC: Yeah? [pause] Yeah, and then where did you go from there?
JT: We went from there to um, I think we went to Market Harborough with Pete Stockie.
MC: Back to Market Harborough.
JT: Yep. He was told to get himself a crew and get back on the squadron, he was a bit of a lad was Pete, [laughter] flight lieutenant [laughter] but we have got a [unclear]
MC: So he finished up as a flight lieutenant then did he?
JT: Pete did.
MC: Yeah?
JT: Yeah. Well, our navigator Barney, he was a navigator with Pete, he was a flight lieutenant too. But we were, the rest of us were senior NCOs, yep.
MC: So how long were you at Market Harborough then on the OTU?
JT: Probably, maybe a year, a couple of years.
MC: As long as that?
JT: Well what they did, they asked, 35 Squadron was formed to do formation flying, twelve Lancs in formation and we were on that, Pete Stocky was on that so we went with him, formation flying. We used to do all over the country and then we went to America to celebrate Army Air Corps Day. We did six weeks tour in the States formation flying.
MC: So that would have been in ’45 then?
JT: That would be yeah, maybe ’46 I don’t know.
MC: How long were you over there?
JT: A long time ago.
MC: You was over there a long time?
JT: Well six weeks. We did six weeks.
MC: You enjoyed that?
JT: We started off in New York, went right down to the south coast and round about. We were the first crew to fly over the White House. They allowed aircraft to fly over the White House and the Lancs flew over there. But, oh we had a six weeks tour [unclear]
MC: And that was with 35 Squadron?
JT: 35 Squadron. We were entertained, taken to Hollywood, we were entertained in Hollywood shown the people doing the rehearsals and acting. We had a wonderful time really. Couldn’t, couldn’t do any wrong. [laughter] We came back and I asked to do me time after that. I only had about a fortnight to do when we came back. I got demobbed and that was it. But we had a wonderful time.
MC: So when were you demobbed?
JT: Uh —
MC: Because you stayed in —
JT: Before, I signed up for six months. I didn’t actually do the full six months I don’t think. They let me out early. I forget now to be honest.
OTHER: Indeed, probably late ’45.
MC: Yeah. So having come out the Air Force, what did you after the Air Force then?
JT: I needed a job obviously. I didn’t want to go, I didn’t want to be a cost accountant, there was no way. And a pal of mine worked for McAlpines, he was in the office at Sir Alfred McAlpines so I got a job, he got me a job in the office Sir Alfred McAlpines and I started there off as a [pause] stationery assistant then I was posted, I got asked to go out on site, I became a timekeeper then I became office manager and then became an area office manager and then while I was doing that I was doing a lot of the work that surveyors were doing and the chief surveyor said to me ‘John,’ he said ‘why don’t you take up surveying?’ he said, ‘you know more than these buggers’. So I applied and I went to the college of building for about six years I think, five years and I studied to be a quantity surveyor and became a chartered surveyor and I finished up my time in Cheshire County, yes I worked for Chester City, Cheshire County.
MC: So when did you meet Beryl then?
JT: Oh, I met Beryl way back, that was when —
BT: [laughter] Ah, when was that? I was —
JT: Where was I working then?
BT: Seventeen or eighteen, whenever that was because I’m eighty five on Sunday.
JT: Aye, that’s not good. Where were you, you were working at McKagan Barnes (?) weren’t you?
BT: Sorry?
JT: You were working at McKagan Barnes (?)
BT: Yeah, and I was in the accountants office.
JT: She was training in the accountant’s office.
MC: So that, you met before the war?
JT: Sorry?
MC: You met before the war?
JT: Oh, no.
BT: Oh no, after that.
MC: After the war?
BT: I used to see him very often going back off leave in his RAF uniform and I used to think, oh he looks alright and you know, [laughter] not realising I’d end up marrying you [laughter]. But um, no we just met virtually at a dance at the local dance hall.
JT: That’s right.
MC: Yes.
BT: He came in, we spent that whole night dancing. I was going out with the drummer in the band and I said to — when John said ‘can I take you home?’ and I said ‘well, see the chap playing the drums, he is my boyfriend so you’d better come with me to tell him’. So he did and, told him and I got a phone call from the chap the next day and he said ‘I can’t believe you did that’. I said, ‘well I’m sorry’ I said, ‘I’ve now met somebody else so we’ll just have to call it a day’.
MC: You must have been a bit of a lad in those days.
BT: I thought, well I could have just —
JT: I was a bit of a lad.
BT: I could have just walked out but I thought no, I’ll do the right thing and tell him.
JT: Thank you.
BT: And the fact that he didn’t like it well, you know [laughter].
OTHER: [unclear]
MC: Going back to the operational times.
JT: Well once you, sitting there with a [unclear] the searchlight picked you up as you went in and the skipper had to do evasive action which was climb and roll and—
MC: Corkscrew.
JT: and climb and roll. That happened on many operations.
MC: Yeah.
JT: But it was something you used to —
MC: Any close mishaps with other aircraft then?
JT: Oh, aye. Many a time. [laughter]. And our foreign friends but err —
MC: So you, you had a few escapades with some fighters then?
JT: Yep.
MC: Yeah. And managed to get away unscathed?
JT: That’s right.
MC: Obviously a good skipper.
JT: Thanks to the skipper. Yep, that’s right. Oh yes every, there was always other things with somebody on one of the ops.
MC: Did you always get them back to base at the same, you know?
JT: Yeah we did, we always got back, we, the last time we were, aah, the skipper was advised to make a landing in the South of England and we agreed. We were going on leave the next day so we said ‘come on we’ll give it a go’, so we went back and we got back and when we got back one of the aircraft engines packed up as we landed but err, the skipper got a remand for it. No we were cheering. Yeah. There were all kinds of little incidents but they were well, sort of part of the daily routine, or night routine.
MC: For you, yes.
JT: It was.
MC: [laughter] So, yeah, I mean it’s, you talked about it, I mean you say there were lots of incidents. Can you remember other incidences? Did you ever get diverted coming back, apart from that one incident when you didn’t go back?
JT: I think that’s the only occasion, which we didn’t — What they did, they sent a fighter out from Tangmere, which we ignored [laughter] and went back anyway, but err, that’s the only time.
MC: You ignored the fighter. What was he there to do?
JT: Pardon?
MC: What was the fighter from Tangmere there to do?
JT: It was a, oh bloody hell, I don’t know.
MC: No, what, why did they send him out?
JT: To guide us into Tangmere.
MC: Aaahh.
JT: But we didn’t take any notice. We went back, yeah. What was it, I forget the aircraft now, I knew it —
MC: So you never got any problems with coming back in bad weather, to Skellingthorpe then?
JT: Oh we did have rough times. From time to time you came in you could hardly land because of the weather but we made it. We’d got a good skipper in Dougie Milligan, he really was. He was a, he wasn’t, he was just going for it as much as I should have been, but err, he was on the ball and a good skipper.
MC: Yeah. So the flight engineer, he was?
JT: Oh Jimmy James was a great lad, oh yeah.
MC: A name like Jimmy James? [laughter]
JT: Yes, well he had a garage in Liverpool and I tried to find out about him and I found out about a week after he died. I used to belong the Aircrew Association, I think it was. And I asked them to fish out for any documents and they said the only one we’ve got is Jimmy James and he died a week ago and he was our flight engineer. Our bomb aimer, the one I would like to get in touch with is Ronnie Pugh, ‘cos Ronnie Pugh came to our house. In fact there’s a picture of him at our house, he came to our house, he was a great lad was Ronnie. He was a professional pianist before the war, he played for Maurice Winnick and wherever we went, on the piano, we always had a gang round together. [laughter] No problems with drinking with him.
MC: So, he was the navigator you say?
JT: He was the bomb aimer.
MC: What about the navigator?
JT: Jimmy, was very —
MC: Jimmy, this was Jimmy James, no Jimmy James was the flight engineer.
JT: Marlow. He was one of two who were married. He was married, a lovely wife, a young lady. He’d just got married and she came with us a couple of times, not on train journeys, elsewhere, and Jimmy, he never came out a lot. He didn’t go on the binge like us so much but he was a great bloke, Jimmy. He, he was the one who worked for the Air Ministry before the war and he wanted to get a commission so it would stand him in good stead when he got demobbed. But he did get it just before we finished, he did get one. He was only a, Robbie Pugh already had one, he was a pilot officer when he joined us.
MC: And your mid upper? That was —
JT: Jock Bryman [?] he was a flight sergeant.
MC: Yeah.
JT: Big Scotsman, a canny lad. [laughter]
MC: You don’t know what he did before the war?
JT: No I haven’t got a clue.
MC: No, no. And in the tail, rear gunner?
JT: Johnny Austin, but I don’t know what he did before the war but he got frostbite and he was invalided out of the RAF, Johnny Austin was. We had a spare gunner for a couple of trips, I think.
MC: Did you, [unclear] did you know much about 50 Squadron when you were posted there? Had they told you much? Did you know of it?
JT: No, I didn’t know anything about it at all. Not the slightest, no. It was a good squadron, and I’ll tell you what, we had a good mob.
MC: Hm. [pause] Yeah, as I say, you talked about your birthday, and so your raid on your birthday was that railway junction.
JT: Yes, well I sort of [unclear]
MC: You couldn’t celebrate it in the air could you eh? Or did you?
JT: No, no, no we didn’t.
MC: [laughter] A successful operation though, um. So you probably, so I mean, it wasn’t um, it wasn’t 16th April you were on operations?
JT: We must have gone down the pub.
MC: So you must have been down the pub.
JT: We would do, yes.
MC: That’s a good excuse, but you didn’t need an excuse in those days.
JT: [laughter] Hardly.
MC: So I mean, if, if I guess you’re looking at your first tour was um, your first operation even was er, was marshalling yards at Tours.
JT: That’s right. I don’t rem — I remember going to the marshalling yards but I don’t know where it was. That’s when I got Jimmy Marlow to try again to get him to look out of the window but he wouldn’t look. He said ‘no fear’.
MC: And then you did the GVC, UVC marshalling yards, you did lots of the marshalling yards?
JT: That’s right. [noise of door closing]
MC: Even Paris, even, your third trip was to Paris.
JT: I don’t remember that.
MC: Marshalling again, marshalling yards.
OTHER: There you go, that was, was that leaflet dropping you were saying you were doing at the time? That’s the one, that‘s the Paris trip.
JT: Paris, yeah.
OTHER: ‘Cos you went from [unclear] Paris and then you went, started, you seemed to go to Germany and Munich.
JT: [unclear]
OTHER: [unclear]
JT: But I was in the Ruhr Valley.
MC: You went to Cologne?
JT: Oh yes and somewhere else, I forget.
MC: Cologne and —
JT: Two or three trips to the Ruhr Valley. Yep, they were always a bit hairy.
MC: Yeah, because of low level defence —
JT: The thing was you’ve got a battery of searchlights and the second you got near to them, the searchlights were on you and you were dodging the searchlights all the way through.
MC: Did you, I mean did you get hit, you never got hit any time by flak?
JT: Sorry?
MC: Did you get hit any time by flak?
JT: I think we did but err, nothing to, well nothing to put us off keeping going.
MC: Yeah.
JT: Although that was, always took the length of the runway. According to the skipper you had to hold it down to make it, take itself off.
MC: It took a while to get off with a full load?
JT: It did yeah.
OTHER: So that would have been, you know especially if you had long trips, with a full fuel load as well.
JT: That’s right he would hold it down to the end of the runway to make it fight to get off, yeah.
OTHER: Is this a —
JT: Poor old Johnny who was in the rear turret was wondering when he was going to leave the deck. [laughter]
MC: Were there many times when you came back —
JT: Yes we did get a recall once.
MC: You had to bring the bomb load back?
JT: . We had to go out to the North Sea, there was a dumping area out in the North Sea, we used to have to go and dump them there and we’d say ‘ah flippin’ heck’. Or sometimes you’d get a hang up with a bomb and in theory you still had to go out to the North Sea but in honesty, disconnect the camera, get rid of it [laughter]. We didn’t do it that way, we did go sometimes but sometimes we didn’t.
MC: What sort of dumping area, you dumped it elsewhere?
JT: We’d just disconnect the camera, pull the toggle and away we’d go [laughter]and put the camera back on [laughter] get a picture of cloud.
MC: Yeah, yeah [laughter] So did you have to bring many bomb loads back did you?
JT: Sorry?
MC: Did you have to bring many loads back or was there —
JT: We never brought one back, only, we dumped one but we never ever brought any back.
MC: Oh you always dumped them?
JT: Yeah, yeah.
MC: What sort of bomb load was it you were carrying?
JT: Probably thousand pounders, [unclear] in cans. Four thousand pounders with cans.
MC: Four thousand.
JT: Four thousand pounders with the cans, well, a load of thousand pounders with the, oh bloody hell what are they called, not flares. Oh I can’t think.
MC: Incendiaries?
JT: What you say?
MC: Incendiaries?
JT: That’s right.
MC: Yeah, yeah and were there many mishaps, did you experience any mishaps?
JT: Pardon?
MC: Did you experience any mishaps at Skellingthorpe while you were there you know?
JT: No we didn’t actually, we didn’t get any hang ups, no.
MC: No, I meant did you have any accidents at Skellingthorpe or anything like that?
JT: Aahh, not that I can recall.
MC: So what did you personally think about the bombing raids then, about the —
JT: I thought they were a great success really.
MC: Yeah. And the morality of it, what did you think about that?
JT: I think Bomber Harris had it right. The only thing was he put a raid on once, I think Winston Churchill insisted and they lost a lot of aircraft that night but err, I thought they did a good job.
MC: Were you on that raid?
JT: No.
OTHER : That would be Nuremburg?
JT: Yep, That’s ninety six or ninety five.
MC: Yeah.
JT: Yeah, well that wasn’t going to go ahead but Churchill insisted that it did and we lost ninety six aircraft that night.
MC: Hmm, yeah.
JT: I mightn’t have been here now. [laughter]
MC: You didn’t do Dresden then?
JT: We’d finished.
MC: What did you think about Dresden then, you were aware of the Dresden raid?
JT: Well, it’s hard to say really. We never had to encounter the problems they had when they got there so we don’t know. I mean they said it was a walkover[?] for them. In fact a pal of mine who was a navigator in another squadron said he didn’t like, he regretted it said he was ashamed of going there but having said that and he came back but some people didn’t so it’s all right talking if you got back. Yeah. That was Ken Boxon, [?] Ken went to Dresden yeah.
MC: So what did you think about the way Harris was treated after the war?
JT: Sorry?
MC: What did you think about the way that Harris was treated after the war?
JT: I thought he had a very despicable treatment. I think for what he did during the war I think it was a crying shame. If it hadn’t been for him Bomber Command wouldn’t have been the force they were, I thought he was great.
MC: Good for Bomber Command.
JT: Absolutely, he was yeah, Butcher Harris. [laughter] But he didn’t get the justice he deserved.
MC: Yeah. And did you get your clasp, Bomber Command Clasp?
JT: Yes.
MC: You did get your clasp?
JT: I don’t think it’s worth a light. Little tiny thing, not worth a light. I don’t know why they bothered to make it to be honest. I think I brought it with me.
BT: In the box is it? Is that the one?
MC: So, yeah you did apply for your clasp and you got it. That’s um —
JT: No it’s not there.
MC: You said there was a lady at the end of the runway. She used to wave you off.
JT: Sure, she did. She came down, she’d wait for us to come back. She was the lady who used to treat us to coffee. She was the lady who gave me coffee that night when they called us in from Lincoln to go on ops.
MC: What was her name?
JT: Mrs Cook.
MC: Mrs Cook.
JT: Mrs Cook. She was a lovely lady and she’d come down and stand at the end of the runway and she would wait until we got back to the air traffic tower. She was lovely, really was.
MC: I suppose there would have been a few people waving you off?
JT: Sorry?
MC: I suppose there would have been a few people waving you off at the end of the runway?
JT: There were, that’s right there were, but she never, she never missed a trip that we were on, no.
MC: So did you mingle with the other crews much during the day?
JT: Well we did obviously but when we to, we had specialist briefing, nav briefing, WOP briefing, pilot briefing, but then, but at night you did OK, I mean we’ve got, if they were in the pub, the same pub as we were we’d mix in there but we never had, we had our own gang.
MC: Were you very conscious of the losses? I mean you know, were you aware of some of the aircraft that didn’t return?
JT: Well, the thing was, the following day there were empty beds. This was it.
BT: Yeah.
JT: That’s when you knew how many had been lost.
MC: Hmm. But it was never you.
JT: No. When you lose five out of eleven that’s a lot of [unclear]. We were, we were always there. We was very lucky.
MC: Is that what you put it down to?
JT: Yeah, it was luck, pure luck.
MC: And the skill of the skipper.
JT: And Dougie Milligan’s skill. Yep, yeah. He was [emphasis] skilful. When he got back he used to get, he got reprimanded once for taking his time coming in to land. He always complied with the instructions [background noise] for landing. Other air traffic come back ‘cos they went before him and they used to play hell about the, but Dougie never did, he always complied with them. [background noise]. The rules of landing. He was a good skipper.
MC: Which contributed to your success.
JT: Oh he did, without a doubt, yeah.
MC: So when you got your medals after the war did you? When did you get, collect your medals, did you apply for them straight away or —
JT: Ah. Did I? I can’t remember now whether in fact they —
MC: So what medals have you got?
JT: I’ve got the France & Germany, the Aircrew Europe, the Victory Medal and another but I don’t know what it is.
BT: Have you got them there John?
JT: They’re there somewhere.
OTHER: They’re in your blazer pocket.
JT: Ahh.
MC: Yeah, I was just asking you know about your medals, what you’ve, when you got them?
JT: I’ve got the Aircrew Medal at the end of it as well. I still put that on.
MC: Yeah. Then you’ll be err, France & Germany Star?
JT: France & Germany.
MC: That’s the one, I think it’s, that’s the one the clasp goes on.
JT: I don’t know, I don’t, didn’t go on, I never put it on anywhere. And then the Aircrew Europe.
MC: Yep.
JT: And then the Victory Medal and then err, I think I’ve forgotten what the other was. There’s certainly four of them. [unclear]
OTHER: No, no.
MC: So when you —
OTHER: They apologised to him.
MC: Talking about America, going back to when you were flying in America.
JT: That’s right.
MC: You say you flew in formation?
JT: Twelve Lancs in formation. Oh we were tight, it was a tight form, I could look out of my Astrodome and see the bloke in the next jar alongside me and we did that in tight formation over America. When we got to Army Air Corps Day the Yanks had three Superforts in formation. They were miles [emphasis] apart, they were absolute bloody rubbish and the commentator said ‘Ladies and gentlemen, don’t you think this is the best bit of formation flying you’ve seen today?’ and he had to apologise for it. Yeah.
MC: You’ve obviously [laughter]
JT: Three miserable bloody Superforts.
MC: You had twelve in tight formation?
JT: Twelve in tight formation.
MC: So you saw a fair bit of America then did you?
JT: Oh yeah we did.
MC: Whereabouts did you get to then?
JT: We started off at New York and Wash —, um, down to down south, oh I forget where it was and then we went to Hollywood, that area and then we went to Texas and we came back to Washington and somewhere else on the coast and then back to err, New York.
MC: So you flew the Lancs across did you?
JT: Oh yeah.
MC: You flew all twelve?
JT: Twelve yeah.
MC: Twelve Lancs across —
JT: That’s right. We stopped off in the middle of the Azores. We had to land in the Azores to refuel.
MC: The Azores?
JT: Yeah. And then we carried on from there to the States and one of our lads nearly wrote the Reception Committee off. He came up too tightly on the front and he had to pull up and the Reception Committee were lying on the deck [laughter] yeah.
MC: You got a good welcome from the Americans then?
JT: We got a wonderful, wonderful welcome, incredible. Really did. But err, I wouldn’t have liked to stay there. Having been born there I wouldn’t go back there, no, no.
MC: Yeah, well, whereabouts were you born?
JT: Helena, Montana.
MC: You did say, yes.
JT: That’s right, yeah. [pause]
BT: We’ve been over there.
JT: Ken and Al have taken me back there and Beryl —
BT: And me.
JT: All the four of us went. They took us over there.
MC: You [unclear] you back yeah.
JT: When did we go?
OTHER: We went on your 80th.
OTHER: Yeah, yep, just as, well I’ll tell you when it was because we stood under the Twin Towers and three months later they weren’t there.
JT: That’s right.
OTHER: They were —
BT: That’s right.
JT: We beat a path between the Twin Towers.
MC: What’s this?
JT: Flying Fortress, fifty thousand feet, bags of ammunition and a teeny weeny bomb.
[laughter]
OTHER: That’s what they said about the Yanks because they were flying so high [unclear]
JT: [unclear] little tiny bomb and we had a four thousand pounder on and a load of ammo. [laughter] In fact we took a crew one night with us and they couldn’t believe it before we got off and where we were going how much bomb, how many bombs we’d got on board. They could not believe it. They did just one trip with us, only one, that was it.
MC: This was on an operation was it, you took a —
JT: Oh yeah.
MC: You took an American —
JT: Took the Yanks one night, I think we took three of the crew [sound of door closing] on the rear gun, one by the skip and one alongside the nav and me. They couldn’t believe where we were going and what load we’d got on. Yeah.
MC: Amazing. ‘Cos they, they didn’t have such a big bomb load.
JT: Well that’s where this little song came from ‘Fly fly a fortress, fifty thousand feet, bags of ammunition and a teeny weeny bomb’ [laughter]
MC: You did two spells at EHB, that was your, wireless operator?
JT: Wireless operator, yeah.
MC: Yeah.
JT: We went from Blackpool to EHB and then we went back for a refresher later on when I’d done my gunnery course, yeah. EHB.
MC: So at that time, there was, what was the living accommodation?
JT: When I went the first time I was an AC2, when I went back the second time I was a sergeant. [laughter] Different approach altogether.
MC: Absolutely yeah. Well thank you very much John for your time.
JT: It’s been a pleasure
MC: Some interesting stories and err, —
JT: It’s nice to talk to you.
MC: and it’s been great talking to you [emphasis].
JT: Thank you very much.
MC: Thank you very much.
JT: It’s a pleasure.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John Tait
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:42:42 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
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ATaitJT160610
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
John Tait was prompted to join the Royal Air Force, as he was American by birth and therefore he had to report to the police station once a month because he was considered an ‘alien’. He was a wireless operator and gunner, flying in Ansons, Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancasters. He was based at RAF Skellingthorpe, enjoying the social life in and around Lincoln, flying bombing operations over the Ruhr Valley as well as various marshalling yards in France. At the end of the war he joined 35 Squadron who flew Lancasters in formation both in the UK and the USA. He was on the first aircraft that was allowed to fly over the White House after the war.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Wales
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Wales--Bridgend
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
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Tina James
35 Squadron
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
entertainment
Goodwill tour of the United States (1946)
Lancaster
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Padgate
RAF Scampton
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Stormy Down
searchlight
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/16/6136/AAtkinsonA150623.2.mp3
194d2829b0981bb39f112129e533bbe5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Atkinson, Arthur
Arthur Atkinson
A Atkinson
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Arthur Atkinson (1922 - 2020, 1042303 Royal Air Force) his log book, service material and two photographs. Arthur Atkinson trained as a wireless operator and spent eighteen months at RAF Ringway before being flying 34 operations with 61 Squadron from RAF Coningsby and RAF Skellingthorpe.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Atkinson and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Atkinson, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: Ok so If you tell us about when and where you were born, and then go on from there.
AA: Yeah, I was born in Lancaster in Lancashire in 1922, went to a normal school, elementary school then I won a scholarship to the local Grammar school but , we didn’t have a lot of money so I wasn’t able to take up the scholarship so I carried on schooling at the elementary as long as I could and then when I left school, the Headmaster, I was head boy in the school by the time I left, and the headmaster got me a job at the local accountant, which was fine but in those days five shillings didn’t go a long way. So, in no time at all I had to leave there and got a job with the local coop behind the counter which I hated, I hated it from the first day and I decided then and there as soon as I was old enough I would join the RAF. That was my ambition I’d had one flight in an Avro 504 the open cockpit type with a local chap that came and that set me off I volunteered for the Royal Air Force as wireless operator, I always wanted to be a wireless operator and got my number at pad Gate I was accepted I got my number but unfortunately, they sent me home for deferred service which didn’t suit me at all. I was home for about six months and at the end of six months I was so fed up I wrote a letter to the Air ministry, saying “have you forgotten me?” and a week later my papers came. Then I reported to Blackpool to the initial training wing and wireless school, did my wireless training over Woolworth’s in Blackpool and then down to Compton Bassett to finish off with and when I qualified as a wireless operator I was posted to Ringway airport Manchester which then was RAF Ringway doing ground wireless operating duties there for about eighteen months until I was put under draft to go overseas as a ground wireless operator. Well a friend of mine on the same draft said “this isn’t good enough”, we were both waiting for aircrew training by then, so I went on embarkation leave, he went to see the CO and said “look you know this isn’t playing the game” so the CO agreed with him, and when I came back from leave embarkation leave found I’d been taken off the draft, and in a short while I was posted down to Yatesbury on a refresher course then went through the usual mill of flying training at Yatesbury.
MC: What sort of aircraft were you flying in?
AA: Proctor’s, little Proctor’s, Dominie, to start with then little Proctor’s then I did an EFU at Boddington near to Ha’penny Green then gunnery course down at Stormy Down in Wales. Then I finally qualified at the Operational training unit at Market Harborough and was crewed up by self-selection, I saw a pilot walking along and I liked the look of him and asked him if he wanted a wireless operator and did, he had a Bomb aimer, asked me if I knew any gunners which I did, and eventually we crewed up. Went through the training and finally posted to Coningsby 61 squadron.
MC: Who was your skipper and crew then?
AA: Bob Acott, Basil. M. Acott but we called him Bob. The only thing was that we hadn’t had leave for ages and they said you can’t go on leave until you’ve done at least one operation with the squadron but unfortunately before we went on Ops we had to a couple of cross countries and unfortunately our navigator suffered from airsickness and every time we took off he was ill so this delayed us somewhat and we were not very happy about it anyway eventually they swapped him for another navigator Dickie Ward he was a good lad, and we were put on the list to go to Stuttgart our first op. This was a disaster completely from start to finish. We took off, we hadn’t been flying long and it was fairly obvious our DR compass wasn’t working properly, anyway we pressed on and it was our first trip it was a press on type anyway after hours and hours it seemed to me we didn’t find Stuttgart we found a glowing under a cloud, a red glow in some clouds and thought this must be it so we unloaded the bombs there which was, whether it was Stuttgart or not I don’t know any way we tried to, we left the bombing area tried to fly back to the UK still wondering all over the place with this DR compass which wasn’t working properly we hadn’t flown long before bomb aimer checked the bombays and found a thousand pound bomb had been hung up so we opened the doors and we let that go I don’t know who got it but we were over Germany so it didn’t really matter a lot, we carried on flying wandering all over Europe I should think and after ages and ages the rear gunner said he thought he saw the coastline underneath, well that’s great so approximate course to England we kept flying and flying and nothing happened and a bit later on he spoke up and said “I’m sorry skipper, I was wrong the first time I can clearly see the coast below now” so then the skipper said, “well that’s alright but I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel to get across the Channel now” so he said “I’ll tell you what…” he got on to all of the crew and he said “we've got to make a decision, you can either bail out, in which case you would be prisoners of war, or we can try cross, get across the channel and if necessary we will have to ditch, what do you want to do?” universal decision we'll try and get across the channel so off we went over ten tenths cloud we flew on and we flew on but nothing was happening then suddenly through a break in the clouds we saw a beacon flashing now I couldn’t establish where it was, and all this time I’d been trying to get my radio set to work to find out where we were unfortunately every time I wound out my trailing aerial it was shorting out and I couldn’t get any power on the transmitter and very little on the receiver. So anyway we got to this beacon and the skipper flew round and round it and said “we’ve got another decision to make” the first decision wasn’t a good one but anyway we had found this beacon and we flew round it and he said “the only thing is, if it’s a land marker you can bail out but if it’s a sea marker you’ll drown, on the other hand if I decide to ditch the aircraft thinking it’s a sea marker, and it’s a land marker there’s going to be one hell of a bang” so anyway flying around this beacon trying to make our minds up suddenly an airfield lit up beneath us and there it was full runways, perimeter the lot marvellous we’ll land there so we went round to land wheels down, wheels wouldn’t come down, bomb aimer tried the flaps, the flaps wouldn’t work so we overshot. We came round again and this time we blew the wheels down with a compressed air tank that was behind my head in the wireless compartment and they fortunately came down and locked and with the flight engineer pumping like mad on the flaps he managed to hit the ground and roll along Well I went to the back of the aircraft open the door and I saw a chap on a bicycle with a blue torch and I said “aye mate where’s this then?” and he said “Westonzoyland “, I thought what the hell we have landed in Holland it sounded Dutch to me “Westonzoyland!” I said, “where’s that?”, he said “Somerset”. So, there we were got some sort of transport went to the Flying control tower saw the chap that had put the lights on and he said, “the first time you went and you didn’t land, I put my hand out to switch off the lights off again but I thought I’d give them one more chance”. It’s a good job he did, so we thanked, we ran to and thanked the beacon crew because I had been firing red, red greens the pilot had been saying ‘hello darkie this is spot null tear calling darkie’. Flashing the nose light SOS doing all sorts while we circle this beacon, when we went to the flying control we saw a Warrant officer in charge of the signal flight who’d been to the mess for a couple of mugs of tea for him and the WAAF that was working on the radio set, as he came through the door with the two mugs of tea, there was the WAAF under the bench unconscious; the same thing had happened about a fortnight before and an aircraft had called up in distress and then they hadn’t been able to contact it, gone across the Bristol channel crashed into the Welsh mountains , now she thought she was listening to a ghost when she heard us so she passed out under the bench so she was a lot of help. But anyway, it all worked out very nicely, but we had to stay down there for three days while they flew ground crews down from Coningsby to fix the aircraft everything was wrong with it, took them three days to fix it then we went back to Coningsby and then we went on leave. Now in some ways Harry our navigator, this sick navigator saved our lives because while we were on leave they did the Nuremberg raid and the Berlin raid and lost 95 aircraft as you know, so that was very fortunate. After that we carried on and did another thirty three ops, I think it was and then we finally finished our tour of ops, I was posted down to 17 OTU Silverstone as an instructor and stayed there until I was de-mobbed in 1946.
MC: So, you did thirty four ops, more than normal?
AA: Yes, but that was because some bright spark decided that French targets it’s easier than German targets so you had to do three French targets to count as one operation. That’s why it’s got the thirty three, thirty four.
MC: So, you did a few daylight raids?
AA: Yeah, we did about three daylight raids I think but I didn’t believe this business about being easier, because one night my crew, were stood down and the wireless operator in S-sugar was sick so I was told to fly with them. Pilot officer Hallet In S-Sugar so we took off, well after the briefing I was quite pleased in a way that I’d been put with this crew, because it was ten minutes over France flying bomb sites but this was a doddle so off we went got to this flying bomb site just across the channel no flack just lots and lots of searchlights and fighters circling round the outside waiting for us and as we went into bomb they were attacking us three at a time, I have never corkscrewed so hard in my life as I did with Hallet. But anyway, before we had taken off on the ops I was talking to a couple of chaps and the crew wasn’t with me, I was talking to two wireless operators , well three actually Kemish, Donahue, Sutton there was four of us talking and when I came back from the ten minutes over France, Kemish and Donoghue were no longer there, I think there was twenty two aircraft lost on that ten minutes and two were from our squadron and both of them wireless operators, I was chatting to them before we took off, so that was that anyway apart from the normal flying after that there wasn’t a great lot to talk about . I remember one occasion when I was working on the set, suddenly there was a brilliant white flash and I wondered what the hell it was it was like daylight in the cockpit I jumped up on the step stuck my head out the astrodome just in time to see a wing sailing past with two engines on it, and the propellers going round. An aircraft had blown up just in front of us, and the skipper pulling back on the stick trying to miss it so we didn’t hit the damn thing, anyway apart from that I think the rest of their trips were fairly quiet .
MC: So, were most of these daytime raids were following the invasion?
AA: That’s right, yeah, I can show you if you like?
MC: So, this is your logbook?
AA: Yeah.
MC: Its very neat!
AA: Yeah, there’s not a lot in it, I think about eight German targets, and the rest were French but as I said they weren’t as easy as they said they were and eventually of course they rescinded that.
MC: So most of them were fairly uneventful, apart from the ones you told me about?
AA: That's right. Yeah.
MC: So, following the operations you did where did you go then …. what did you do then following when you finished your ops?
AA: Well as I said I went down to 17 OTU at Silverstone and was there until I was demobbed in 46.
MC: Yeah, so your first flight obviously was err….
AA: Traumatic!
MC: Traumatic to say the least even though you didn’t meet any enemy action, during your other operations did you come across any other…you must have come across flack?
AA: Well we saw the flack, it didn’t bother me much it was quite interesting in daylight black puffs it looked very harmless you know it didn’t look dangerous at all. That was my air force career yeah.
MC: So, what happened, so then you did, you did your 19 RFS?
AA: After the war I joined the RAF volunteer reserve because I still couldn’t get the RAF feeling that I liked, I loved being in the RAF to be honest so I joined the RAFVR and used to go down at weekends first to Liverpool, at Liverpool and then we were over at Oulton Park the other side of Birkenhead then finished up at Woodvale, Southport flying at weekends then back to work as a civilian on Monday morning, a fortnights camping every year and that was great until it finally packed up in about 1952 I think round about then. So, then I joined Blackpool Gliding club and got a glider pilots licence just to keep flying and then when that packed up the next flying I did was on the back of my son’s microlight. We bought a microlight aircraft between us, he got the pilot’s licence and I just sat in the back flying around Coningsby, again. When the squadron moved across from Coningsby back from Skellingthorpe we were detailed to fly the aircraft but lot of stuff came by road when we landed we were given a dispersal for the aircraft I left my flying boots at the back near the Elsan and when we had lunch and came back to the aircraft my boots had gone so somebody helped himself, I went to the stores to see if I could get a spare pair and he said “What! I can’t let you have any more flying boots what if you don’t come back from an op I will be one pair of boots short”, which I didn’t like the attitude there so I wouldn’t buy them, he said I could get them on the 664b and I could pay for them, so I thought I’m not damn well paying for them. Just as well id done because when I was demobbed I had to pay for them, six guineas I think.
MC: So, you were demobbed in when? When were you demobbed?
AA: In ‘46’ Whitsontide ?
MC: What did you do after the war then?
AA: I went back to my old job for just six months, oh I’ve got a procession of jobs now and then I went to for work for the Associate of British cinemas as an assistant cinema manager, well a trainee to start with I stuck that for a couple of years and then I left there and went, I was married by then with a son and digs were hard to find so when the area manager came to see me , well first of all I was at Barrow in Furness as assistant cinema manager then I was transferred back to my home town of Lancaster then he came in one day and said “we are transferring you to the Regal Rochdale” and I thought well no you’re not, finding digs was difficult, I packed the job in and went to work for the Shell Oil company down at the Heysham Refinery in the materials office and unfortunately after a while there was a clash of personalities between me and the materials superintendent so I left there, got a job managing a shop in Morecambe seaside town selling pottery, glass wear and fancy goods, and looking out the window I saw all these salesmen coming past in their cars and I thought that looks like a good life much more interesting than this. So, when a chap came in selling me paper, wrapping paper and paper bags and things, or trying to I mentioned to him, and he said, “well come and work for me”, so I did and I stuck that for a couple of years. But I soon found out that being a salesman on the road wasn’t as good as it looked it was hard, hard work you’d have a good week one week and you couldn’t go wrong, the week after you couldn’t sell a thing, no it wasn’t good at all. So, I scanned the local paper and saw a job advertised at the North-west electricity board in the offices so I applied and got the job; in fact, I got two jobs at the same time. One was a job at the what was it…. the aircraft factory Lostock near Bolton I’ve forgotten the name of the aircraft now, well anyway that was one job and I also got the North-west electricity job as well. One would have meant changing home again so I stopped in Lancaster and took the electricity board job and I worked there for eight years until I got bored. I worked first of all on the cash desk as a cashier and then debt collecting and doing all sorts of things. Then I moved into the offices because it looked more in my line in the records office but I then found that I only had three day’s work on a five-day week, so for two days I was scratching around with looking for something to do and I soon got bored with that. So I applied again to the civil service and to NAAFI I saw an advert for NAAFI so the civil service said I could be taken on as a temporary employee it would take some time to become permanent but the NAAFI sent me a railway warrant to come down and see them which I did and of course because I’d worked initially in the Coop as a grocer I knew a little bit about it and then I’d managed the shop in Morecambe as a shop manager they offered me a job as a NAAFI shop manager and I asked could I go to Germany and they said yes we can send you to Germany but your wife will have to stay behind because we can’t accommodate her, I said in that case it’s no good to me, so the chap who was interviewing me said, “well would you be interested in going further afield, in which case your wife could join you ?” I said, “well yes I would” my ears pricked up then and he mentioned North Africa so I thought yes that will do for me, so I signed on there and then went back home, gave my notice in to the electricity board and on the appointed date went down to London, London Airport first day with the NAAFI London Airport flying out to North Africa. So, they sent me fortunately to Casto Benito known as RAF Idris. There was a little family shop there on an RAF station which suited me down to the ground I became an honorary member of the Sergeants mess, and I was in my element there was Air Force all around me but I didn’t have to take any orders because I was civilian and that was fine I was there three year, I had a three year contract I came back to the UK in 1964 , sent me on leave and I stayed on leave and the weeks went by and the months went by and I was still on leave but my salary was being paid into the bank so I wasn’t too concerned . Anyway, suddenly one Friday about four months after I’d being home I got a telegram ‘come down and see us’. So, I went down to see them and apparently two of the officials had been going to lunch and one of them had said “by the way what are you doing with Atkinson?” he said, “well he’s abroad isn’t he?”, “no” he said, “he’s at home on leave.” So that sparked the telegram, when I got down they said would I like to go back to Tripoli again this time to take over the main shop in Tripoli centre which dealt with the Embassy, all the Army, RAF units, any ships coming into Tripoli harbour I dealt with them, so I took the job on and I found it was losing £30 a day was this shop I took over, I didn’t like this so I put measures in to put this right, and in no time at all we were making a profit and this was noted at NAAFI headquarters. So, then it was decided that we would pull out of Tripoli altogether close down, the troops were coming home there were to be no units left in North Africa. So I had to close the shop down and reduce all the stock, close it down came back to the UK went to the headquarters in Peel Court in London for an interview and they said we would like you to attend a board which I did, I didn’t know it at the time but it was a commissioning board for what they called ‘Officials of the Corporation’ because when you became an official you had to be commissioned in the Army as well , on the Army reserve so I thought any how that would do me so I was successfully interviewed particularly with my record of making this shop profitable and they sent me for eighteen months training up and down the country various places, I went down to Plymouth for the ships I went to Scotland for bomb exercise I was all over the place learning about NAAFI official duties and eventually I was qualified and was sent to Anglesey. So, I was on Anglesey for eighteen months and then I got a notification they wanted me to Germany to Bielefeld so I was posted across to Bielefeld for three years.
MC: So, did you have a rank then?
AA: Well the thing is I had a road accident on Anglesey, I stopped my car to post a letter walked across the road and came back and saw a heavy lorry coming towards me so I leaned into the back of my car out of its way and put my foot out and it ran over my foot. Anyway, so when the paper came through with my army commission as a Second Lieutenant in the RASC or logistics core as they call it now, I had to send them back, I said I’m sorry but in view of my injury traversing rough terrain is no good to me because I knew that they sent the district managers on exercise with the Army with the acting rank of Captain in Logistics core, I thought well I can’t wander around hopping about like this to see over NAAFI contingent so as I say I sent the paper back and said I’m sorry that’s it so I didn’t get my commission but I was an honorary Second Lieutenant and when I went to Germany I was given Officers quarters and attended officers Messes and that sort of thing but officially I was a civilian. I did three years in Bielefeld, came back to England posted to Lincolnshire cause my wife came from Boston so this was fine, I spent three years here and then was posted again to Germany to Osnabruck for another three years that was fine I enjoyed that, holidays on the continent down to Italy and all over the place and then came back here again and then in 1982 there was a restructuring programme and all district managers of aged sixty or approaching sixty were dispensed with, but it was a pretty good deal they said that…..I was called down to London most surprised to learn that my service was no longer be required after a certain date when I was sixty in September but that I would get a pension from NAAFI based on the assumption that I reached sixty five which was fair enough so I was retired early at sixty and that was it, and I’ve lived in Lincoln ever since .
MC: I’d just like to go back to your earlier days when you did Air Gunnery training at first didn’t you?
AA: Yes.
MC: Did you, you got your…. so, it was your first brevet?
AA: Yeah that was at Stormy Down.
MC: And you got the Air gunnery brevet.
AA: I did.
MC: And what rank did you get there?
AA: Sergeant.
MC: So, you were Sergeant yeah.
AA: Yeah
MC: So, when you did your Wireless operating training, your brevet changed did it?
AA: Err it was still…. I can’t remember when it changed to be sure, but I know it was changed to an S , Signals but air gunner initially.
MC; That’s brilliant Arthur thank you very much for that. This interview was conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre and the interviewer was Mike Connock and the interviewee was Mr Arthur Atkinson the interview took place at Mr Atkinson’s home in Lincoln on the 23rd June 2015.
AA: Syerston for afternoon tea in Hanson’s and then back to work on a Monday morning.
MC: And this was where?
AA: This was in the volunteer reserve from RAF Woodvale, flying Anson’s. It was great. When I was recalled for my aircraft retraining from RAF Ringway, Manchester I went down at ACRC; Aircrew recruiting centre in London for various things one of them of course was a medical and when we had the medical we found that I had a weak left eye so they said “we will have to get you a pair of special goggles with a lens in the left eye”, fair enough, but unfortunately when my Squad was posted on, the goggle hadn’t come back and I had to wait for them so I was kept back one week when I should have been with my original squad. Then my original squad went on and were posted to India on flying boats.
MC: Oh right.
AA: And because I was kept back a week on a different squad, I finished up on Bomber Command, but if I hadn’t finished up on Bomber Command and being posted to Coningsby I wouldn’t have met my wife. [laughs].
MC: Yes, that’s right.
AA: Because one of the first places I went too was the Gliderdrome in Boston dancing. and met her there, and once we’d met we were together for sixty-three years.
MC: Goodness me.
AA: She died in 2007.
MC: So where did you…you obviously went to Coningsby and from Coningsby you moved on to Skellingthorpe?
AA: Skellingthorpe yeah.
MC: That’s where you did the major part of your tour?
AA: I did all my tour at Skellingthorpe yeah.
MC: All your tour at Skellingthorpe yes!
AA: Yes, all the incidents of interest that I can remember on the ground were at Skellingthorpe, apart from losing my flying boots. We had a mid-upper gunner. He was a Canadian and he used to ride around on a bicycle and he finished up, he got bicycles for the whole crew and we all rode around on bicycles, where he got them from we don’t know but he painted his apple green and I was flying, I was riding down to flights one morning with him got to the MP post and the MP pulled him over and asked him where he got his bike from, apple green, he finished up being court martialled but he said he’d been in a pub in Lincoln, he missed the bus back to camp and somebody offered him a bike so he thought better than walking so he said “I bought the bike and cycled back then I found out next morning it was a service bike but I’d paid good money for it so I painted it apple green” and he stuck to it and got away with it. We all in best blues at the court martial ready to give evidence to say what a good bloke he was, including Bob Acott but they only called Bob and the navigator in and he got away with a severe reprimand but they took him off flying while he was under court martial in case he got killed, they could court martial him if he got killed [laughs] but he was a good lad.
MC: So, the skipper and who, who got the awards you say?
AA: Pilot Bob Acott got the DFC, and Trevor Ward, Ken wrote a book about he got the DFC.
MC: Oh yeah, yeah
AA: Oh dear, we told Ken about the episodes when we one a flew across country to Scotland and our flight engineer Bob, Bill Rudd said to Bob, we were at 20,000 feet on across country one of these two cross countries that were before we went on ops, and Bill Rudd said to Bob “Bob, if you get injured when we’re flying over Germany, you know you’re damaged in any way, who’s going to bring the aircraft back?”. Bob said, “well I haven’t given it a lot of thought really.” He said, ‘Well I think I should!’ He was like that Bill was, so Bob said, “all right fair enough, you can if you like.” He said, “in that case I should have a go at flying it, shouldn’t I?” So, Bob Acott policeman steady said, “you’ve got a good point there.” So, the two of them changed seats at 20,000 feet, then the aircraft stalled it just fell out the sky with the flight engineer in the pilot seat, you know the only left-hand control in a Lanc. Oh god, I clipped my chute on, whether this is what finished the navigator I don’t know, he clipped his chute on, I said “which way are we going out”. I said, “well we can’t go out the front because these two silly buggers are trying to change seats again” [laughs]. Of course, in the back of your mind there’s always that instruction ‘you do not leave the aircraft without the Pilots instruction’ but I thought he’s in no position to instruct anyway, every time they got it in a level keel pushing the stick forward, you know, it stalled again and it kept coming down and we were coming down like a falling leaf. Anyway, they finally changed seats then the flight engineer was running up and down the aircraft finding what had gone wrong, when we found out what had gone wrong it was the trimming tabs on the elevator he’d kicked them as they were changing seats again in, up so that…. Oh dear. And Bill Rudd the same flight engineer he had a chop WAAF, he waved to this WAAF every time he took off, then one time he was waving to her, and waving to her stretching his head round to wave to her and his intercom plug came out as we were tearing down the runway, to take off, so when Bob Acott said ‘full power’, nothing happened Bill wasn’t on intercom we had a full bomb load so I heard him say’ full power’ and eventually he took his, he had to leave belting…we just staggered off Doddington Road end. Bill Rudd, another time on importance we were diverted to Ford, or Tranmere as the sea approached the runway instead of putting full flap down, he took flap off and I could swear the props hit the sea, oh that was our flying. This chap was posted to our crew at Winthorpe and we very soon realised a little bit, not very good we said to Bob, we should get rid of him Bob, this chaps not, well somebody’s got to take it. But he’d been thrown out from the previous crew he’d being in, they’d wised him up and got rid of him. Bob Acott wouldn’t
MC: So, you were always having to compensate for him?
AA: He should have got a medal, the Iron Cross, First Class, he did his dam to kill us [laughs] but we even survived Bill Rudd, I hope that’s not on tape.
MC: It is, [laughs]
AA: Oh dear, a bit of a lad. I saw him later on in the war, I’d been down to Boston with the wife because she came from Boston and I was in Lancaster, I’d driven down in the car and on the way back we were diverted through Harrogate that’s where he lived and I thought he was so keen a medal, was Bill he wanted to climb in the wing and put the engine fire out with a fire extinguisher and stuff like that. Anyway, I suddenly saw a big board and it said, ‘W. Rudd Demolition Contractor’ and I thought this is too much of a coincidence, so I took the address and followed it round and there he was in the garden digging his garden with a …talking to a chap at the same time, I said “Hello Bill, how’s it going? “He, looked at me, he didn’t know, he hadn’t a clue who I was till I provided him what had happened, oh dear that was the only time I saw him. But Dougie May our bomb aimer, I suddenly decided Dougie and me got on very well so I suddenly decided I’d like to see him again if I could so I got the telephone directory out and looked through all the names in Birmingham, he lived in Birmingham and the first one I tried it was his wife answered I said “I’m looking for a chap called Douglas May that served in Bomber Command during the war”, she said “yes, my husband did”, I said “well just go and ask if he remembers Acott’s shower” so that’s exactly what she said, and he was back on the phone in two seconds, went down to see him and I had him and his wife staying here in this house when the memorial was opened we went and I’ve got a video of us marching, the first march we ever did when the memorial was opened, but unfortunately he’s died since.
MC: Did you get to see any of the other crew, the skipper and that did you meet up?
AA: No I didn’t unfortunately no, because we all went to different, I was posted to Silverstone, I know Bob Acott went down to Swinderby, Dougie went somewhere in London I don’t know where the hell he went and of course Trevor Bowyer left us after twenty ops because it was his second tour, and I don’t know what happened to the mid-upper, Al Bryant after his court martial because he didn’t fly with us again.
MC: Oh, didn’t he?
AA: No. presumably went back to Canada, but Dougie was the only one that I met.
MC: So where was the skipper from?
AA: The skipper was from London, he was on the Metropolitan Police. Anyway, I never offered you a cup of tea.
MC: Oh no, you are alright thank you. Thanks lovely thank you Arthur.
AA: So that’s all right then!
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Arthur Atkinson
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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AAtkinsonA150623
Creator
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Mike Connock
Date
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2015-06-23
Format
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00:40:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Contributor
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Carmel Dammes
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Atkinson was born in Lancaster, and worked in the local Co-Op until he joined the Royal Air Force. He trained as a wireless operator and served at RAF Ringway before being posted to RAF Coningsby and later RAF Skellingthorpe with 61 Squadron. His first operation to Stuttgart was a disaster when the compass failed to work and they landed at RAF Westonzoyland. Over all he completed three daylight and 31 night time operations. He met his wife while in Lincolnshire. After he was de-mobbed he continued to travel with the Royal Air Force as a civilian managing Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes. He also continued his love of flying, joining various flying schools and eventually buying a microlight with his son and flying around Coningsby again. Arthur settled in Lincoln after retiring.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Wales
England--Lincolnshire
England--Somerset
Germany--Stuttgart
Wales--Bridgend
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crewing up
Dominie
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Proctor
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Coningsby
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Ringway
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Weston Zoyland
RAF Yatesbury
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/503/8397/ADavidsonRE151126.1.mp3
2d503b4ee6f044b92ca558c27cadbaaf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Davidson, Roy Eric
Roy Davidson
Roy E Davidson
R E Davidson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Davidson, RE
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Roy Davidson (-2022). He served with 61 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewee is Roy Davidson, the interviewer is Mike Connock, and the interview is taking place at Roy Davidson’s house in Lincoln. Right, I think we’ll start with, if you could just tell me a bit about where you were born Roy, when and where you were born.
RD: I was born in Lincoln in 1933, my mother worked as a bus conductress, and then at Marks and Spencers, my father was unknown, and I went to school in Lincoln, a City School, the old City school on Monks Road. Went to work at the Lincoln Corporation, became pensions manager for Lincolnshire County Council, the holiday camp that was in 19[inaudible].
MC: Yes, can I stop you when, when you obviously you were born in ‘33, so what was life like as a child then between ‘33 and say, ‘39?
RD: I lived on terrace, a terrace house in St Nicolas Street.
MC: A good childhood?
RD: Yes, yes, yes.
MC: Yes.
RD: It was quite a place.
MC: Yes, so obviously when war broke out, you were six.
RD: Living in St Nicolas Street, I was on the flight path for Scampton and I used to hear the Lancs coming over, of course you don’t realise at six year old what’s going on but you could hear them coming over, you could hear the engines playing up sometimes, you could hear them coming back, [inaudible] opposite St Nicolas Church on the final, on the final approach for Scampton, and I used to listen to the aircraft coming over but didn’t realise what was going on.
MC: So obviously that was up to ‘39, and then obviously during the war you were sort of, you know, a youngster and -
RD: Yes, that’s right.
MC: Growing up, so by ‘45 at the end of the war you were?
RD: I was twelve year old.
MC: You were twelve years old, so what was life like for a young man during the war?
RD: Ok, well, different in that, well at that age you don’t realise what’s going on, do you really, I mean the thing I remember about the war in St Nicolas Street was the old air raid shelter, they used to build these air raid shelters on, on the roads, on the main roads, on the main street playing football against it, against the air raid shelter [laughs]. But when I was at school, if there was an air raid alert, we used to go to the Wesley Chapel.
MC: Yes, so therefore you, what age were you when you left school then?
RD: I left school when I was fifteen.
MC: What did you do?
RD: Went to work for Lincoln City Council, in the pension, the superannuation as they called it in those days, department with a guy called Bert Joyce, who was my boss, who was a super chap, he was a great, I think he was the chairman of the Lincoln amateur dramatic society, and Gilbert and Sullivan society, so that’s how my interest in Gilbert and Sullivan came from him. And the thing I remember about the City Council was a guy called Harry Rogers who was a deputy treasurer, he was a keen golfer and so was I, and he came in the office one day with Pete Hopkinson, the chief accountant, and said, I was in charge then and he said, ‘are you busy?’ ‘yes I’m really snowed under’. He said ‘we’re looking to have a person to make up a three ball [inaudible]’, so I said, ‘I’ve no chance, I’m too busy’. He said, ‘look, I’m the boss and I’m ordering you to come and play’, and during this round of golf, [inaudible] score the Mercado, there you go he was a great Gilbert and Sullivan fan and I’ve seen it two or three times.
MC: So are you?
RD: Yes, I was yes.
MC: So obviously you got, as a National Serviceman you got your call up papers.
RD: Yes in 1951 and I was, I went to Padgate, It was [laughs], the thing I remember about Padgate was, one of the unique things was you couldn’t take food out of the cookhouse, on Sunday morning, people were having a lie in, so one of us was nominated to go to cookhouse, we used to get a stack of bread, put it on our head and put a hat on, walk back to the [pause], you didn’t want the bottom slice.
MC: Yes [laughter] so at that time did you know you were going to be aircrew, I mean.
RD: No after I’d been in about, I went in August, about 2 months, the doors had been opened.
MC: Was it basic training at Padgate?
RD: Yes, well I’d just finished my drill course, normal reception course, when the door opened, they were looking for National Service aircrew, so I volunteered, went down to RAF Hornchurch, was offered pilot or navigator for eight years, signal engineer, gunner national service, so doing my national service I was very tempted half a dozen times to sign up. Frank was always on me sign on Roy sign on, but I tried to get a national service commission in the Fleet Air Arm, I fancied that, went down to HMS Daedalus on the Solent for interviews. But the thing I remember about the interviews at Leigh was, there was a Naval engineer board and there were around a hundred of us and, when it was your turn, you went to the top table there were three piles of cards, you picked [inaudible], went out for five minutes, and had to come back and had to give a five minute talk on what was the subject on the three cards, I got constitutional monarchy, mass production and colour televisions, no chance [laughter].
MC: So that was for the Fleet Air Arm?
RD: That was for the Fleet Air Arm, yes in there.
MC: So you, you obviously volunteered for your air gunner then?
RD: Yes, yes.
MC: Yes, and so following that, obviously your air gunner training started.
RD: Yes, I went to RAF Lakenfield, did a 20 hours flying, it’s in the log book there.
MC: Yes.
RD: At Lakenfield and the thing about Lakenfield was we, I was, I played top class table tennis in those days, I played John Leach the world champion once, and we had a very good table tennis team and we thought we were going to win the RAF cup, we got to the quarter final and we were playing West Kirby at Liverpool, and as I was on the train to West Kirby at Manchester. I stuck my head out of the window, and somebody shouted the King had died, he died that morning, and so we got to West Kirby and all leave was cancelled, all social activities were cancelled, I had to get back next day for an examination at the, on sighting at the gunnery school, and we started the match at 7.30 in the morning. I played my two and went back [inaudible] Lime Street at Liverpool, we got back to Lakenfield, but the thing was about that, my, we thought we were going to win the RAF cup and my posting, every fortnight the flights passed out, one went to Bomber Command, two weeks later, Coastal Command, two weeks later Bomber Command. Mine was scheduled for Coastal Command, but we were in the quarter final of the RAF cup and they, when, you could play if you were stationed you’d left up to three months after you’ve left, the Bomber Command Station was Scampton the Coastal Command was St Mawgan down in Cornwall, we thought we were going to win the RAF cup, therefore they re-flighted me held me back a fortnight, so that it was a Bomber Command posting instead of Coastal Command posting, otherwise I should have been down on Shackleton’s. These things happen and then we got knocked out.
MC: So your gunnery training was on Lincoln’s was it?
RD: It was on Lincoln’s yes.
MC: You started on Lincoln’s, [inaudible]
RD: I went to Scampton, Scampton was a 230 OCU in those days, it was just closing as we arrived and then they moved it to Waddington, so I went with it to Waddington, and did my training on the OCU at Waddington and then was posted to a squadron at Waddington, 61 Squadron.
MC: So you joined 61 Squadron, how many, how long were you doing your gunnery training, how long was that, how long did that take?
RD: If you could look at the dates on there, Mike, it shows you flights doesn’t it?
MC: I was just looking where you went to 61 Squadron in April ‘52, that would be right. [pause] So what about the flying, Lincoln flying did you -
RD: I enjoyed it was about 600 hours in a Lincoln, I wouldn’t have missed it for the world really. At the OCU at Scampton the way you crewed up was interesting.
MC: Oh yes that was, yes, I was going to ask that.
RD: You were all in a room, there were eight crews, eight gunners, eight signallers, eight flight engineers, sixteen navigators, and eight pilots and you just wandered round and chatted to whoever came to chat to you, and Frank Ercliff came across and he said, chatting away, he said, you know, ‘yes, you’re a nice sort of guy, would you like to join my crew?’ and that was it, that’s the way your crews were made up and he was a smashing guy.
MC: They did that throughout the war.
RD: Yes, its mentioned in, got a book on Lancaster’s and Lincoln’s.
MC: So were there any other National Servicemen on your crew?
RD: I think Ken Gibbs was.
MC: Yes.
RD: I think, I think he was, the way Danny joined us was half way through my two years, the flight engineer Ken was de-mobbed and Danny joined us, Danny Sinclair.
MC: And was Danny, was Danny?
RD: I think.
MC: Was he a three year man or -
RD: I reckon so, I’m not sure, I don’t think he was National Service but he stayed with us, we got on ever so well.
MC: Yes because as a National Serviceman, you did have the option of making it three years didn’t you?
RD: Yes I did, that’s right, yes, and I think Danny probably did.
MC: Yes.
RD: Yes, but my skipper Frank was on to me 3 or 4 times, you ought to, I think at one stage I thought I will sign on and with my flying hours, I will go again for the Naval Air Service, I think, with my experience of flying at that stage of my, I might have got in the Fleet Air Arm.
MC: Or coastal command?
RD: Or coastal command, yes.
MC: Yes, so what about, did you, did you get abroad with the Lincoln did you?
RD: Yes I went to where the Exercise Sunray at Shallufa, here’s the medal to prove it. Ismailia and Calica, there were hostilities then so they were out of bounds, we went to the WO’s and JO’s club at Fayed, on sand yachting. In 19-, we took off at Shallufa at 0015 hours on the first of January 1952.
MC: What was that for?
RD: That was for Exercise Sunray.
MC: Oh right.
RD: Kingpin, on the first of January ‘52 I think it was.
MC: And that was to Shallufa.
RD: ‘52 or ‘53, call it ‘53.
MC: Yes ‘53, yes [pause] yes, so you, so you flew into Idris in January ‘53?
RD: Yes and stayed the night there, then flew on to Shallufa, the thing I remember about that flight along the North African Coast, Benghazi, and Alemaine, flying just off the coast, on a beautiful day looking down at the debris on the desert in some places, flew into Shallufa, I were a month there on exercise had a few days in Cyprus from Shallufa.
MC: And Nicosia?
RD: Nicosia yes.
MC: You obviously did a lot of hours, what about the, you obviously had one or two mishaps, you certainly had, the crash you had did you?
RD: Ah, that was at Waddington, yes.
MC: So was that after you came back?
RD: That was after we came back yes.
MC: So what happened there with that?
RD: We were there to see, well part of the exercise we were to see firing off of the, we used to fly off the coast at Wainfleet, there was a bombing tower at Wainfleet. We flew about five miles out to sea and threw an aluminium sea marker out the turret a stain, big stain and we used to fire at this, [inaudible] and I became a select gunner, he assessed how many bullets hit the target. But the thing I remember about Shallufa, back to Shallufa was, we were air to ground firing down at targets and the local occupants or whatever you call them now, from the rear turret, when you fired the cartridge ejected into the, into the slipstream and down they went, if you catch any of these things these cartridge shells, and we had, the targets were set big white sheets and as you flew over the target, the pilot would tell you ‘target coming up now’, and it was way, way passed, so we had a system, Frank and I, he says, ‘target ready’, and I had to start firing about ten seconds before the target appeared [laughter].
MC: [laughter]
RD: So I got some hits and I became a select gunner.
MC: You had a good team?
RD: Well yes, these occupants of, Egyptians catching these shells, from the mid upper turret, well we didn’t do any secret firing from the mid upper turret, air to ground firing from the mid upper, mid upper the cartridge shells went into two bags by your legs, but in the rear turret they ejected out of the turret. And we [pause] -
MC: All the Arabs use to collect the shells?
RD: Whether we hit any I don’t know but yes, it was a dicey business.
MC: So all the hours you did, you did obviously, mainly exercises and training.
RD: Yes, we did a lot of air to sea firing off Wainfleet, air to ground firing in Shallufa, and we had one short spell of air to air firing [inaudible] drove off Cyprus.
MC: Oh right.
RD: So we practised all three targets.
MC: So when was the, if you’re alright to talk about it, the incident that you crashed?
RD: That was in September ‘52.
MC: Waddington, oh was it? Oh so that was before you went to Shallufa was it?
RD: Well no, I went to Shallufa in January, January ‘52.
MC: ‘53?
RD: ‘53, yes.
MC: So the, so you had, this is mixed up, ah September the 6th, ‘52 yes.
RD : Ah.
MC: Well that’s, well that
RD: Before Shallufa was it?
MC: Ah yes, 3rd September, yes, so you, what actually happened?
RD: We came, we came in to land, we were overshooting on, we came into land on three engines, we feathered one engine, so we’d got three engines, we’d just stopped one engine feathered, and we were three engine overshoot and we decided to land. As we landed, there was a very, very strong cross wind, we got a very heavy landing and the wind turned the aircraft and we were heading, we thought, towards the main field dump and the number 4 hanger and Frank, I was in the rear turret, but Frank knocked Ken’s hand away, and was following through on the throttles, the flight engineer and opened the engines up. Well of course, we had lost all our stalling speed on three engines, you can’t accelerate, and we staggered across the airfield, just missed number, number 4, it was number 4 or number 5, just missed the hanger anyway. Went over the roof of the married quarters, we were as close to the married quarters roof as we are sat here, and across into a field into the middle of the married quarters. Frank shouted ‘brace brace’, what we did Mike is, we used to do these escape drills one week to Scampton, where there was a Lincoln wired up to create any sort of [inaudible], and next week to Cranwell, to the baths at Cranwell to do the wet dinghy drills. So you would act instinctively which was what it was all about. On the wet dinghy drills you got a maewest, a maewest suit tied tight between your legs, and you jumped in, you went down and the suit didn’t and it was a bit [gasp] and my job was always to upright the one man dinghy, which came out the wing. We used to practice releasing the dinghy at Scampton on the mock up and I had to right, and the damn dinghy always inflated, was set to inflate, always inflated upside down, so I had to get on the dinghy and throw myself backwards to right the dinghy, and I was under the dinghy then [laughs], its funny, that was at Scampton, but this was at Cranwell, aye Cranwell. So it was one day at Scampton, next day at Cranwell but the, so Frank opened up the, well we staggered across the airfield, we’d got flaps down, and we staggered across the airfield and crashed into the married quarters.
MC: So Frank actually tried to open the throttles to go off again.
RD: Yes, yes.
MC: You know but it wasn’t successful.
RD: Yes, yes, and I think, I don’t know whether he got a severe reprimand or not, I don’t know, but all I do know is that we flew the first flight afterwards, was two or three days later and talk about funny tummies. We flew with the Squadron leader of Shallufa to see how the squadron, mine laying off the coast of Norway, and the ships, it was dark and the ships on the horizon seemed to be higher than you.
MC: Yes.
RD: Optical illusion, then they said that we had the choice of not flying together with Frank or staying with Frank, we all decided to stay with him, because there was no doubt about that.
MC: So you flew for quite a while without Frank then?
RD: Yes, yes, he was suspended.
MC: Yes, couple of months I suppose.
RD: Yes.
MC: You flew a couple of months without Frank, and then you all elected to fly with him.
RD: To fly with him again yes, except the flight engineer, they moved him across to another crew.
MC: Oh did they?
RD: Because he was on this throttle business, Frank was moving to closing the throttles and Ken was behind him doing, and Frank knocked his hand away. He shouldn’t have been able to do that. So we went into the married quarters.
MC: So you don’t, did Frank, was he suspended or did he just [inaudible]
RD: I think he was, they grounded him for a while, and -
MC: I mean, It must have been a traumatic experience.
RD: Oh yes, yes.
MC: So you all go out again?
RD: We had an ATC Cadet with us flying and they all went out the front end except for me, and, as I said I went out the rear door but the aircraft was on fire when I got out, you don’t know much more about it, you just get as far away as you can.
MC: Did you have any, anything on board, any armaments on board, any bombs or anything like that?
RD: Fortunately not because I had been air sea firing off, and I’d used all my ammunition so we’d no live ammunition on board.
MC: So had you flown many operations, many flights in that aircraft? Did you have a regular aircraft?
RD: No, we didn’t no.
MC: It was all different.
RD: No, [inaudible]
MC: So, as you say, unique in National Service Aircrew.
RD: Yes.
MC: And then of course you did the Coronation.
RD: Coronation flypast when she reviewed the RAF at Odiham.
MC: You did a lot of training for that?
RD: Yes, yes, you’ll see formation flying.
MC: Yes, so yes that would be in ‘53 wouldn’t it? Yes, that was, obviously you went to Shallufa, came back from Shallufa in ‘52, didn’t you? And then ‘53 was the -
RD: Queens Coronation. That cutting you’ve got there, 800 aircraft.
MC: Oh that started, sorry.
RD: it shows you how many aircraft were on the ground and how many in the air.
MC: Yes, so you had quite a lot of aircraft in the air.
RD: That was us, we were Red Two, flying in formation in Lincolns, that’s some of the flight formation and I was from the rear turret, and the aircraft behind me is probably 20 yards behind me, I were making rude gestures at the pilots in the aircraft behind me [laughter], but we had plus or minus 15 seconds I think it was, on the, on the arrival part so we went over the Queen in perfect formation then it was absolute chaos, there were aircraft fast ones and slow ones, aircrafts all over the sky, and we, we flew over Brighton and came up the East Coast back to Waddington. [pause] When I was in Shallufa, we were coming home from Shallufa, we flew back to Idris and then we were held up for a day at Idris, because it was the day of the East Coast floods. We didn’t know anything about these floods and they were playing cards, and we were suddenly put back a day so we had another day at Shallufa, at Idris, and then we flew back and came up the East Coast. You could see all the floods, no idea what was going on. The panic was, we had some cherry brandy on board I think, for the officers mess [laughter], which we ought not to have had, and it was touch and go whether we got into Waddington, because we thought we were going to have to go to Lynham, now the customs at Lynham were a bit more strict than those at Waddington. I think we got into Waddington with half a pint of fuel left, we just made it.
MC: So you did a lot of formation flying then?
RD: Yes, yes.
MC: Practising for the Queens Coronation flight.
RD: Originally, ones sent on the runway, off he went, then another one, by the time the ninth went, there were nine of us there were, the first one was a long way away, so they then decided to put all nine aircraft on the runway, stack them like that, and one went and when he was halfway down the runway, the second one went, and therefore the slipstream was a bit tricky.
MC: When was the Coronation flypast then that would be in?
RD: It’s on there, look.
MC: Oh 15th of July [pause]. Ah yes, that’s right; here we go, so you were airborne for quite some time
RD: Yes.
MC: So that was from Waddington
RD: From Waddington, there were nine, it gives you in there the formation of the number on the flight, number of Lincolns, we flew with nine from Upwood and Helmswell think it was. Its shows you the [pause], It’ll tell you the numbers it has in it [pause].
MC: So how many aircraft did you say were in the Coronation Flypast?
RD: Well the total about 800.
MC: 800, yes, and there was as many on the ground as well at least [inaudible].
RD: There was more on the ground yes, I mean I shouldn’t think there’s that many aircraft left in the RAF now.
MC: Yes [laughter]
RD: But it tells you there, pass it to me Mike, I’ll show you, [inaudible] ground, there look.
MC: Yes there’s quite a lot of aircraft isn’t there, you know, from Oxfords, Ansons, Lincolns, [inaudible] Shackletons.
RD: And the funny, I’ll tell you a story about that.
MC: And the Avro Vulcan prototype, that was interesting, yes.
RD: [laughter] The ground crew drew lots to fly on the flypast, because only nine aircraft, there were more ground crew so they drew lots, there was a large Taffy guy with us, and we gave him a sickness bag or whatever you call them and he was ill, the slipstream was so bad, there was so many aircraft, he was ill from the moment we took off to the moment we landed, and we landed, still clutching his bag, he fell out the rear door just in front of me, collapsed against the rear wheel of the Lincoln and he said, ‘I could watch the bloody thing on television’. I can hear him saying that now, ‘I could watch the bloody thing on television’, god, he was poorly, I felt ever so sorry for him. He was delighted because he’d drawn lots and he was chosen to fly with us, so there were nine aircraft from Waddington from our squadron anyway, I think 100 had got some as well but yes, ‘could have watched the bloody thing on television’, he said.
MC: So what other squadrons were there at Waddington when you were there?
RD: 49.
MC: Oh 49 was at Waddington, yes, yes.
RD: and 100.
MC: [inaudible] come from Scampton.
RD: And 100 and 61.
MC: Three, three squadrons.
RD: Because that guy from Norway who wrote to you, didn’t he?
MC: Yes.
RD: Said that could you tell him anything about his father, and you sent it to me because you knew I had been there at that time, and his Dad wasn’t on our squadron, and I can’t think he was on any of the other two squadrons, because you got to know the pilots on the other two squadrons as well, and I wrote to him and he mentioned as he was a six year old boy walking with his Dad, down the main street at Waddington when he saw the Lincoln I was in crash. I mean, there’s a chance in a million that, he was delighted, I’ve got the correspondence there, delighted that I’d got in touch with him and he really was -
MC: [inaudible] oh good.
RD: yes, so I took a copy of all the correspondence [inaudible]
MC: So when did you finish your flying? It must have been shortly after the coronation.
RD: ‘53, August ‘53, I asked, the squadron were going to Nairobi on the Mau Mau, and I asked to stay on, I asked to stretch my National Service and stay with the crew but they wouldn’t let me.
MC: So the crew remained and you were replaced?
RD: I was replaced yes, Danny went to Nairobi.
MC: Oh right.
RD: But I was de-mobbed and, didn’t want to be de-mobbed but [laughter].
MC: You didn’t [laughter] That was a shame yes, so obviously, after that you went back to your normal job.
RD: Yes, I became Pensions Manager at the County Council.
MC: Oh right.
RD: In charge of the 13,000 contributors and about 13,000 pensioners as well. I had a staff of 13, and I stayed there until I retired.
MC: Oh right.
RD: And when I retired, I’d been, other than the two years in the RAF, I’d been 49 years, I was the longest serving employee on the County Council payroll.
MC: So having joined the RAF, you were stationed at Lincoln, near Lincoln?
RD: Yes.
MC: That could have gone anywhere, couldn’t it?
RD: But I stayed on Bomber Command for the table tennis, they thought they were going to win the RAF cup, I could still play for them when I was at Scampton, even though we were a Lakenfield team. If I’d have been camped at Mawgan, not a cat in hells chance of getting back, it didn’t work out, we got beat.
MC: So, going back slightly your gunnery training, so obviously you were Sergeant aircrew?
RD: Yes.
MC: When, when were you made a sergeant, was that after your gunnery training?
RD: Yes, I can remember now.
MC: Before you joined your squadron?
RD: Yes, yes.
MC: Before you went to the OCU?
RD: Before OCU, but I, the thing about that was the brevet, you know the air gunners one, I was so proud of that, that I walked down the main street at Hull, like this [laughter] sideways, walking sideways, with these wings, but -
MC: In Hull
RD: Yes, Lakenfield you see.
MC: Oh of course yes, I see what your saying now, yes.
RD: So I walked down the high street in Hull sideways [laughter].
MC: Its lovely, yes.
RD: Whilst I was in the RAF, my navigator Caz Percula got married, married a girl from Dinington, they married in Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, and the crew went to his wedding. Well I don’t know much about it, I mean, they were so hospitable, got all a load of stuff about for his wedding, and -. Then you’ll find this interesting, I saw Frank in ‘53 when I was de-mobbed and I heard about him because a guy Jack Hinchcliff played at Torksey, and he knew, he was a driving of the heavy goods tester and Frank was when he came out of the RAF, and he used to talk to me about Frank being at Blackpool, he knew he was at Blackpool. I got a phone call one day from Torksey, would I ring this number and speak to a Mr Hurcliff, and I said to Eileen, ‘well, Frank said no that’s not his number the std was for Ipswich not Blackpool’. I didn’t know he’d move to Ipswich to be near his son, and Frank had rung the six golf courses round, he knew I played golf, from days gone by and rang the six golf courses round Lincoln, have you got a Roy Davidson on your, and Torksey said we have but they wouldn’t give him my number, but they gave me his number, I rang him up, that, that, I saw him in ‘53, and that was 2003, 50 years.
MC: So you didn’t meet for 50 years?
RD: No, no and then we got very friendly, he stayed here to come to reunions.
MC: Yes.
RD: and -
MC: So basically, did you ever get the crew together again, all told, because you had, you, Frank, and Danny?
RD: No when we were at Waddington, he was a flying officer, I’m yes sir, no sir, on base, but off the base, you are a crew and the set ups different, used to go round Frank’s for meals. When I met him after 50 years, his wife had died and his daughter Wendy was about 4 year old when I last saw her, is married to an American Army [inaudible] and they used to come and stay with us, and his wife had died and he met this lady, Joan, and we got an invitation to his wedding. The bride was about 90 and the bridegroom about 92 or something you know, in the 80’s, and we went to his wedding, we went to his birthday party, and to his wedding and then went to his funeral as well, the obituary things in there.
MC: So when you got together in 2003, obviously Danny was at the reunion?
RD: Well what happened then
MC: Were there any other crew there?
RD: No what happened then was Danny was a member of the aircrew association, as I was, and it showed Frank joining, he’d just joined then, and I’d not been a member long, and Danny spotted my name and Franks name on the new arrivals, new, and got in touch with us, so then Danny myself and Frank. Danny knew where the [pause] David Leeson, the navigator was from Brigg, and I rang, oh there was an aircrew listing of Lincolnshire members of the Association and there was a Leeson. So I rang this number, it wasn’t him, and this guy said, ‘leave it with me, I’ll do what I can to find him’, and he rang me back and he said yes there is a David Leeson who’s living near Wolverhampton, and so I rang him and it was the David Leeson I wanted to speak to, you know that he’s not well at all now. He knew Caszis, the Polish guy, Caz Pecula, he knew his number in London, Basingstoke, so I rang him, he was the other navigator and at one stage on the reunion, there was myself, Frank, Danny and Ken the flight engineer, there were four of us out of the six but the two navigators couldn’t make it, and David’s not very well and Caz, the one whose wedding we went to [inaudible].
MC: Its interesting that you only had a crew of six, I never realised that, you know, I mean obviously I suspect early days in the Lincoln, they would have had seven wouldn’t they?
RD: Yes, yes.
MC: But
RD: Yes, [inaudible] in the middle turret, yes, the middle of the turret was a strange contraption, it rotated, I don’t know if you knew this, as the turret rotated you know, and when the guns are facing the back of the pilots head, it’s on a cam.
MC: Yes, its called a scarf ring.
RD: That’s right yes, so you don’t shoot the tail plane, you shoot the pilot [laughter], yes.
MC: Yes [laughter]. But you did both you did mid-upper turret and [inaudible].
RD: Yes, I trained on the mid-upper turret and the rear turret.
MC: Yes, but when the Lincolns that you flew, did they still have the mid-upper turret?
RD: Just for a while, yes.
MC: Yes.
RD: That would have fired 20mm cannon shells; the rear turret was point five Brownings.
MC: Point fives.
RD: Yes. Two, point five Brownings and we used to, we didn’t do much flying mid-upper, because it was the H2S Radar placed [inaudible] you know.
MC: Yes, yes.
RD: And they took the turrets out, so I was rear turret, and we used to land in the rear turret, until we had the crash, and they stopped me landing, I was de-mobbed soon afterwards anyway.
MC: So you used to vacate the rear turret when you landed were you saying, oh you
RD: After we had the crash, before we had the crash I used to land in the rear turret.
MC: Was there a reasoning behind that? I don’t know.
RD: No, no, I don’t know why they stopped me flying in the rear; it was only for about a month or so because I was de-mobbed [inaudible].
MC: Yes, because you were de-mobbed then, yes.
RD: But [pause]
MC: Thing about a rear turret?
RD: There was a thing, the thing of the rear turret was if you had to eject from the aircraft in the rear turret, you rolled out backwards. Oh I’ll tell you, let me tell you a funny tale, on the night flights, you had in flight pack, food, but you couldn’t have it in the turret, it was just outside the turret, just there, just within the fuselage, and the fuselage was cold, you were warm in the turret so when you got your in-flight pack in the turret it was, not like a block of ice, but cold. In the in-flight pack was a boiled egg, that was fairly solid, frozen, so I used to lob it out the turret, so if you got hit on the head with a hard boiled egg in Lincolnshire, I probably threw it out the turret.
MC: So your suit was, you obviously had a heated suit in the rear turret?
RD: Yes, I was ok, well we hadn’t got heated suits, the turret was warm.
MC: Oh was it.
RD: Other than when the aircraft in Egypt, when the thing had broken down, it was cold then but in the war they had heated, yes.
MC: Heated suits.
RD: Yes, and then we used to get a, another thing we got a bar of chocolate for every two hours we flew but, you didn’t get the chocolate until the end of the month, if you remember you were flying [laughter].
MC: [laughter]
RD: So you’d come home with about 30 bars of chocolate, I wasn’t with Eileen then, [inaudible] she was very keen on chocolate.
MC: So when did you meet Eileen then?
RD: About 1956 was -
MC: Ah yes.
RD: I knew, I knew
MC: You were a civilian?
RD: I knew Dennis, I knew Dennis, Eileen’s brother, before I knew Eileen. I used to go out before our Eileen, because when I said to my friends when I first met her, it was always Denny Worrall’s sister, this is Eileen, it was always Dennis, remember Dennis?
Eileen: Dennis yes.
RD: Sister.
Eileen: Oh.
RD: I’d say its, Denny Worrall’s sister, I played tennis with Dennis so instead of saying this is Eileen, this is Denny Worrall’s sister.
MC: When did you get married then?
RD: 1960.
MC: Good memory?
RD: When did we get married, Eileen?
Eileen: Sorry, what was what?
RD: When did we get married? 19?
Eileen: When did we get married? in err -
RD: This is Denny Worrall’s sister [laughter].
Eileen: We got married in 2000 [inaudible]
RD: 1960.
Eileen: 1960, we had our Golden Wedding, didn’t we?
RD: This is Denny Worrall’s sister, Mike, that’s your five minute probation, five minute talk.
MC: Yes, you’ve got, as you said recently, you went to the Fleet Air Arm for your testing, then you did the, that was part of your testing was this five minute preparation talk, and then you, and then obviously in August ’51, you volunteered, you volunteered for aircrew.
RD: [inaudible] five years [inaudible] National Service at RAF Lakenfield.
MC: So going back to some of the flying you did on 61 squadron, you say the Wing Commander flying was Willy?
RD: Willy Tate was Wing Commander.
MC: Willy Tate of the Tirpitz, yes, yes.
RD: And he, we always reckoned he flew, he flew, very occasionally to mates to keep his flying time, he had to do so many hours.
MC: Yes, and your different exercises, like Exercise Kingpin.
RD: Kingpin, Radar bombing on the Ruhr, that was quite a sight.
MC: When were you flying over the Ruhr?
RD: Over the Ruhr at night yes.
MC: And then you did night flights training, long nose Meteors.
RD: Yes, with the Radar.
MC: Yes.
RD: I used to sit in the rear turret on exercise and see this aircraft catching you up, and when I fired, on my guns, was the call sign watsit [unclear], but it was a call sign so when I pressed the tit, my call sign flashed to him, if mine flashed to him, before his flashed to me I’d shot him down and it was all bona fide. We, when we came into land, we were de-briefed as they were during the war time, it was a proper de-briefing, and there used to be a mass dash for Birmingham, we were dispersed at Birmingham and then came into land at Waddington. If you were at Birmingham first, you got the pan nearest the main hanger at Waddington, if you last you were at the other side of the airfield, so it was all as during the war.
MC: So you did pathfinder training as well, marking -
RD: We had path finding instructions, the master bombers they went in like they did during the war, and we got on the RT bomb on the red marker he dropped a flare.
MC: Yes.
RD: They used to mark the target, Gibson were one, wasn’t he? He was killed flying Meteors.
MC: So you did [inaudible] bombing targets in Wainfleet, Donna Nook.
RD: Yes, yes there must be a sea full of fire axes off the coast of Wainfleet, because on the door behind me, the two doors that came like that, there was the fire axe strapped to the door, and as you fired, the doors were like that, they went like that you know, overlapped, and therefore there was a gap by the side, and I went to fire, I lost two or three fire axes like that yes, as you fired the juddering.
MC: They came loose?
RD: They came loose and you’d got a gap then, if you’re firing on the beam, out went the fire axe. Those escape drills, the Lincoln wired up for, halfway down the page escape drills, there’s the wet dinghy drills.
MC: Oh at RAF Cranwell yes, yes. But you did parachute jumps?
RD: You were offered [laughter] nobody took it up, there’s Caz Percula, he was marvellous, there is a newspaper cutting somewhere, I don’t know much about it, I’ve got a photograph on the back of there, the wedding party.
MC: Caz Percula he was your -
RD: Navigator.
MC: Navigator, yes.
RD: David Leeson was the guy on the radar, Caz was the actual navigator but he was an RAF tennis champion as I say, he played at Wimbledon,so I played tennis for Bomber Command and he played tennis for the RAF. Tiger Moth, that was funny and Frank used to say, ‘let’s go for a ride in the moth’, he put it down as continuation training, there was no navigation aids, so we used to fly down across the field up the high street looking over the sky, down Portland Street, back up, that’s Waddington, that was the way.
MC: So you had a Tiger Moth on the station?
RD: Tiger Moth on the station, yes.
MC: Just the one?
RD: Just the one, yes.
MC: Yes, yes, yes.
RD: Skeet shooting, we used to have to return the cartridges, I could take 50 cartridges out go down the range fire at the, the skeets you had to take back 50 empty cartridge shells.
MC: Could anybody do this or was it just air gunners?
RD: No it was just the gunner, we had the flight simulator as well the mock up, that corkscrewed.
MC: You did, I mean obviously you practised corkscrews?
RD: Oh yes.
MC: [laughter]
RD: And Danny was on his RT and suddenly he would call, ‘what the hell’s going on?’ you know, the corkscrew, like that, and of course first time he knew about it was we were moving and he was on his RT, he couldn’t hear me talking to the pilot. Coronation review flypast.
MC: Yes, you talked about the flypast the Coronation Flypast, you did Spithead did you, Navy at the Spithead, Spithead review?
RD: Well that, that’s when she reviewed the Navy at Spithead.
MC: Ah right, yes.
RD: She reviewed the RAF at Odiham.
MC: Yes, yes [pause], now you mentioned about the ground crew collapsed, you were saying he could have watched it on the -
RD: On the bloody television. We got thrown out of a nightclub in Nicosia, we got thrown out, two of them were riding round the dance floor on bikes [laughter], this orderly sergeant brought out by David, I was orderly Sergeant, he was orderly officer and I fell asleep during the afternoon and missed the six o’clock parade, now any other officer I’d have been in serious trouble but David took it for me didn’t report it.
MC: What’s WO’s and JO’s in club fayed, Warrant Officers and Sergeants, Junior officers?
RD: Yes, Sergeants and Warrant Officers, WO’s and JO’s, yes, at Fayed. You had to check for your boots for snakes, that was a basic requirement first thing in the morning, knock your boots, that you got a snake inside it. Return to Idris. Yes that delayed 24 hours, that strong head wind, that was the weekend of the East Coast floods.
MC: Yes, yes.
RD: We came in over Canvey Island, what the hell’s going on down there, we had no idea, while we’d been held up, cherry brandy at Lynham customs. Hardboiled egg, there’s a bit about the hardboiled egg.
MC: Yeah [laughter]
RD: You get it on, from 20,000 feet.
MC: A hardboiled egg yes.
RD: Another mission on board and got 4 days [inaudible] severe rep, [inaudible].
MC: So you were in hospital for a while after the crash?
RD: 4 days, just 4 days.
MC: Yes, so you just had a -
RD: [inaudible] damage, new engineer Ken Lang, the other ones that were in the crash had been de-mobbed and Danny joined us, it was funny with Danny, inside you used to go in the aircraft through the rear door with me and we used to take over with engines running, and if they’d done a five hour flight, as I say, used to come into the pan, we would, the crew would replace the crew getting out, and inside the rear door was a little step ladder which hooked on, and up the ladder you went in the rear door, but the ladder was never there, so I was fit I could jump in the door with the engines running because the slipstream was, but Danny couldn’t get up was too fat [laughter]
MC: Just go back to that, you’re saying a crew would land an aircraft with the engines running and they swapped crews?
RD: Yes, with the engines running.
MC: [inaudible] taken off.
RD: With the engines running.
MC: With the engines still running? oh I never realised that.
RD: As I was saying you get a bit of slipstream.
MC: Yes, yes.
RD: And the door was a bit high poor old Danny couldn’t, so we used to haul him in, grab an arm each and pull him in [laughter] [inaudible]
MC: So the C/O is Hoochella, you flew with him?
RD: Huchala.
MC: Huchala, you flew with him, used to fly quite low did he?
RD: Yes he was a strange guy, fly, there’s a photograph on the back of there of the squadron party.
MC: You say you were mine laying off Norway.
RD: Yes we were yes, fairly low and it was dark and optical illusions that the boats, the lights of the boats on the horizon seemed to be higher than you, and we’d just had the crash, that was the first flight after the crash, so you got tummy wobbles anyway, you know, because they got you back in the air as soon as they could and you got the ooooooh.
MC: Oh after the crash yes, you were [inaudible]
RD: It was the first one first flight after the crash.
MC: Oh my word, yes, yes.
RD: He was a Canadian flew us, Huchala, Squadron leader Huchala, he was he guy that was getting the squadrons flying hours in and that’s why we flew, we did so much flying, see 600 odd hours in 18 months is a lot of flying really.
MC: Yes yes, [pause] its interesting. You mentioned GCA at Mildenhall and Sculthorpe, is that ground controlled approach?
RD: Well, yes, we the PA [inaudible] sticks out, near the pilot, and you take the cover off and it records your airspeed, and they’d left the cover off erroneously so we had no idea how fast we were going and therefore we couldn’t land at Waddington, because the runway was about only half of the length of the one at Mildenhall, so we went to Mildenhall, made sure that we were going faster than we’d normally go, to make sure we didn’t run out of runway at the end, and that why we went to Mildenhall.
MC: Oh right, I was going to say did somebody -
RD: There was all hell to pay, somebody got a rocket yes.
MC: Get in trouble for that?
RD: One of the ground crew yes.
MC: Yes, goodness me.
RD: I saw a joke, he made me laugh in somewhere, these old ladies talking to the pilot, it was a flight engineer, and she said to the guy, she said, ‘what’s he doing’, this bloke was inspecting, moving bits around and, and this guy said to this old lady, ‘oh he’s the pilot, he’s trying to find the door’, he thought she was nervous, thinking who is he, it’s the pilot trying to find the door [laughter].
MC: So Frank tried to get you to stay on?
RD: Yes.
MC: I mean was that when you were due for a de-mob?
RD: No two or three times he wanted me to stay on, ‘you ought to stay on, Roy’.
MC: So did you have that option when you were, when you came to the end of your National Service?
RD: No, I think I would, if I’d have a post I would have taken it, but they didn’t try to tempt me I would have had to say I’m interested based on re-muster.
MC: Yes yes.
RD: But I wouldn’t have missed it for the world.
MC: Yes?
RD: I had a great time, I think with playing table tennis as well If you’re a sportsman, I always remember at Padgate when I was on recruit training, we played football at eight o’clock in the morning, two teams, one in our team was Peter Broadbent, he used to play for Wolves, and you had skins and vests, you tossed up and if you lost the toss you were skins, this is on a November morning in the middle of winter, you know. [pause] yes, the photographs at the back there.
MC: Yes its interesting Roy, thanks very much for your time.
RD: That’s ok, no problem at all.
MC: And well get this put on the digital archives.
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Interview with Roy Eric Davidson
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Mike Connock
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-11-26
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ADavidsonRE151126
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:56:42 audio recording
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Roy was born in Lincoln in 1933 and was six years old when war broke out.
He left school at the age of 15 and went to work for Lincoln City Council in the Pension department and was called up for National Service in 1951, doing basic training at RAF Padgate.
Roy volunteered for aircrew, and went to gunnery training at RAF Lakenfield. He joined 61 Squadron in April 1952.
Roy took part in Exercise Sunray in Shallufa in 1953 and then in Exercise Kingpin, which was radar bombing on the Ruhr.
He also took part in the Queen’s coronation flight on 15th July 1953.
Roy flew in the Avro Lincoln throughout his service until he was demobbed.
After he was demobbed, Roy returned to Lincoln Council as Pensions Manager, working for 49 years until his retirement.
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Vivienne Tincombe
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
childhood in wartime
crash
Lincoln
RAF Shallufa
RAF Waddington
RAF Wainfleet
sport
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/515/8747/AGreenKS150713.1.mp3
c8ff4633227b104e9027ea6a3b4661cb
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Green, Kenneth Shelton
K S Green
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Green, KS
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An oral history interview with Leading Aircraftsman Kenneth Green.
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MC: This interview is being conducted for, on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock, the interviewee is Kenneth Shelton Green and the interview is taking place at Skellingthorpe Community Centre on the 13th of July 2015.
KG: As I say -
MC: OK, Kenneth, what we’ll do is, I’ll just ask you to tell me a bit about when and where you were born.
KG: Yes
MC: and err, your early days, school and the, the area you lived in
KG: Yes, right. I was born at Pleasley near Mansfield, on the 17th of January 1922, I lived variously, as a small person with my parents and partially with my grandparents, at a place called Pleasley, and it doesn’t matter what the name of the street is, it was Burghley House, B-U-R-G-H-L-E-Y House, Pleasley, near Mansfield, that’s where my parents lived and my [pause] lived with my mother’s parents when they were first married and where I was born. That’s [unclear], then moved to a small agricultural setup, called Dales Torth D-A-L-E-S T-O-R-T-H, two separate words, Danish background origin, and then we moved to a place called Skegby, S-K-E-G-B-Y, where I started school as a five year old, [pause] err, [pause]. We later moved to Nottingham where my father took up a post with the Nottinghamshire County Council in 1920, [pause] something, six, eight, thereabouts
MC: When were, when were you born?
KG: Oh, I was born 17th January 1922
MC: ‘22
KG: Err, I ‘ve gotten down out as 17, [unclear] move into Nottingham, where we had a house whilst a new house was built for my parents where we occup, which we entered into occupation in 1930 I think, at Mapperley, Gedling, Nottingham, Westdale Lane, that’s it, err, [pause]. I was then transferred to a school at Mapperley, Nottingham and was there until I, from there obtained a scholarship at Nottingham High school where I went in 1933, I think, yeh, [pause]. I had a scholarship for the same year also to Henry Mellish modern school, which I didn’t take up because I went to the high school, err, we lived at Nottingham, well Gedling it was called the address, until I was err, err, I went into business and then into the RAF, and then the Navy, and then came out.
MC: How old were you when you left school?
KG: I left school at the age of 18, 17, 17.
MC: So, did you have any employment from then?
KG: Yes, I worked for a, an insurance company at the office in Nottingham until, I went in the Air Force and I came out of the Navy, er, out of the Air Force
MC: Before you joined the Air Force, did you do anything else?
KG: I was in, oh yes, I was in the, air, auxiliary fire service, the local Carlton AFS where I was part of the team, and ultimately was an engineer with the fire engines and so forth, that’s where I first drove a Rolls Royce, which had a fire pump trailer behind it. That would be 1930, correction, 1941, two.
MC: So, what age were you when you joined the Air Force?
KG: I went into the Air Force, er, in 1942, at the age of - [pause]
MC: Yes, you would be about 19, 20 if you were born in ’22.
KG: I wouldn’t, yes, I get, I’m sorry about this.
MC: That’s ok
KG: I’m so, er, [pause] 1939 was the beginning of the war, 1940, ‘41, ah ‘42 [emphasis], I joined the Air Force, that’s it.
MC: What made you choose the Air Force?
KG: Because I wanted to fly, er, I became an engineer in the Air Force
MC: So, what was the reaction when you asked to fly, what was the action, reaction, from the Air Force when you asked to fly, said you wanted to fly?
KG: Well, I wanted to fly but unknown to me, I had astigmatism, an eye condition which prevented me being accepted for aircrew, yes,
MC: So -
KG: So, I joined the Air Force and then went to my first technical school in South Wales.
MC: Did you do any basic training?
KG: Oh, oh yes, I did my paddy, Padgate, Blackpool, square bashing, then I went into the technical college, technical, er, section of the Air Force in South Wales, erm, name. St Athan
MC: RAF St Athans
KG: Yes, I went and did my first technical course there, and became I, I, merged head of course as a flight mechanic and joined, 61 Squadron RAF, Bomber Command, 5 Group, Lancasters, as an erk, SAC, as LAC, give or take, yes LAC, 1942, yes that’s it, ’42. I stayed with squadron, until, moved to, oh, oh, wait a minute, I didn’t, I went off on a conversion course to, number 1 school of technical training, Halton, RAF, in 1943.
MC: That was conversion too?
KG: I was, I was, then became a fitter to E, engines, LAC, I joined the servicing flight of 61 Squadron, which was a new type of arrangement for dealing with [pause] periodic inspections, a separate team
MC: [unclear]
KG: A separate team, a separate team, we were an upstage from the, from the squadron, but we were still on the squadron, but we were the servicing flight, er
MC: Where was that, that was at?
KG: That was at RAF Syerston, first of all, 61 Squadron,
MC: Not far from here
KG: The squadron then moved to Skellingthorpe
MC: So, what was the -
KG: And then from Skellingthorpe to [pause] bom, bom, bom, [pause] er, Coningsby, then back to Skellingthorpe, where they have been doing some runway work in the meantime, still on 61 Squadron, er, I was then posted to a new par unit, production unit, at RAF Bottesford
MC: Can I go back to Syerston, when you -
KG: Yes
MC: First went back to Syerston, what, err, you worked, what mark of Lancaster did you work on?
KG: I worked on both Mk 2’s and Mk 1’s and Mk 3’s, the Mk 2’s then left the squadron, down to, went down to Cambridge where they shifted the whole lot, but we were the, we were a rare beast there were very few Mk 2’s made, they were, [pause] Bristol Hercules engines in a Lancaster, so I am one of the relatively small number of people who worked on those.
MC: That was all part of your training?
KG: Well no, it was part of service, I was at the squadron with them
MC: Yes, but I mean you, your training on the engines
KG: Oh well, you did, you did all engines
MC: Oh, you did?
KG: And expected, I, I took a, a works course at Rolls Royce, Derby on Rolls Royce engines in 1943 [pause], yes
MC: So, then you went on to Skellingthorpe from Syerston?
KG: But, but well I, no, whilst I was at Skellingthorpe, I went off to Derby and did a course then came back, then, I left Skellingthorpe to this, to Bottesford
MC: Can I ask you what’s, what were your reactions to the accommodation and stuff at Skellingthorpe, what was it like?
KG: At Skellingthorpe you were, you were, a Nissan hut in a field [pause] oh, over the hedge and so forth, away from the main er, sites at er, Skellingthorpe. We had a proper civilised brick establishment at er, Syerston of course, [laugh] it was not, it was not highly regarded the basic sort of Nissan huts that we ended up with at Skellingthorpe [laugh] but anyway, I use, I used not to go preferably to, well the guard room was too far away, I lived over fields so it was nearer to go over the next field over across the farm and down to erm, the station at Hykeham, where it was very convenient to catch a train to Nottingham where I lived and I er, it saved time and other things. Not to go as far as Nottingham but to get off at Carlton, which is the station before Nottingham so you didn’t meet people like SP’s who wanted to know how, why, when and where.
MC: I’d like to cover some of the experiences at Skellingthorpe if I can, erm, you know
KG: Yeah
MC: Mishaps or whatever
KG: Well, life was what it was, one worked hard, I was proud to be there, we, we went off to do all sorts of things occasionally. I went down to, I went down to [unclear] erm, Silverstone [emphasis] I went down to Peterborough, servicing was to pick up a Lancaster, it had landed down there after ops and it wasn’t working properly but in actual fact, it was that the pilot was friendly with a WAAF in the stores there [laughs]. When he was doing his OTU training [laughs], however, Chiefy and I went down by Hillman Minx sort of garry, and, er, sorted the aeroplane out which was not in dire straits, there were a few sparks out of the exhaust pipe that was it, that was the argument, err, yes
MC: So, you, you say you went down to Peterborough and it was er, -
KG: Well, yeah, I went to Peterborough to swap an engine on Mickey the Moocher as it was at er, later, 61 Squadron’s M, Mike, and the flight mechanic who was on the flights with it, he painted the first Mickey the Moocher and the Mickey, and then the trolley and the bomb and all the rest of it er, yeah and I spoke to him after the war, he lived in South Wales then er, [pause]
MC: So, you got quite friendly with the crew of Mickey the Moocher then?
KG: Oh, oh we went down to her because the third crew on Mickey the Moocher, yes, I think they were the third crew, they’d had an engine blow, starboard outer, blew up on an op and they landed at Peterborough, so, er, a colleague of mine from the squadron went down with an engine and swapped it and managed to get it all put together and back again the next day
MC: How long would it take you to change an engine?
KG: Well, it, [laughs] not long because we wanted to catch the train from Nottingham [laughs], at five thirty [laughs] from Hykeham, so we flew back by Lancaster [laughs] yeah, up to the Nissan hut in the field and then out of the back door to the Hykeham station [laughs]
MC: I gather you experienced quite a bit of an explosion at Skellingthorpe?
KG: Oh, Skellingthorpe, yes in the course of ordinary work, we did our periodic, periodic inspections which were a stage up from what, what the squadron could do and I, I was stuck on a B flight aircraft, I can’t remember which one it was now, erm, with err, another chap. I’d finished my port outer, I’d done no snags and engine ready, and it was four o’clock thereabouts and my colleague John, was in the record for the getting killed, he was doing the port inner
MC: Who with?
KG: He said, ‘look, I’ll do the run up with Chiefy, you, you scarper,’ he knew where I was going, so off I went with my bike, he stayed and shortly after I left, before I got, be, beyond sort of two hundred yards from the back over the fence on my bike going down to the station, there was a hell of a bang, and err, something had gone up. I didn’t know what it was, but of course couldn’t do anything about it, preceded on my way, get back at midnight at Hykeham and people said, ‘Oh we’ve been sweeping the deck looking for your fingernails,’ and so forth and it was er, my friend who’d kindly stayed to do the run up and this whole tractor and trailer, train of thousand pound, yellows, yankee, DA, delayed actions for daylight were tur, turning round to bomb up and servicing aircraft when you are doing bombing up was not [emphasis] a good thing to do. Anyway, my friend was blown, blown apart because the back spring on the trailer, row of trailers which was being driven by a chap, I think he was an electrician, anyway he’d broken his collar bone and he was fed up with doing nothing and he accepted the job as driving the tractor for armourers with a whole string of bombs and he was with his arm in, in plaster, he was driving one handed and the, the back spring on the back trailer which you can, you know was far off and you couldn’t see it and it broke and the back bomb [three loud taps] kept hitting the ground and it pulled the safety pin out and so forth, and, er, as he got to the aircraft where my friend was still doing his port inner engine, it went bang and the lot went from here to there and back again, so he’s, he was killed and is in the er, killed list that would be I think, October, September, October ’40, ’44.
MC: Squadron [unclear]
KG: Hmm
MC: Any other, any other -
KG: It was, it was a B Flight aircraft
MC: Any other issues like that?
KG: Well, no, I mean, whilst going, whilst, for, for a time we were going all the way down at Bottesford, a mate and I we used to go by train, from erm, from Carlton to Newark, in the mornings, and cycle, down the A1 to Bottesford, over the, over the hedge and so forth, because we had got a permanent living out chit, both of us, and both of us came from Nottingham, and we cycled, used to cycle down. I can remember this Sunday morning, winter, it would be ‘44, seeing these, these, contrails going vertically up from the ground down to the south east, and they were the German V2’s being fired from Holland into England, we didn’t know at the time but er, that’s exactly what it was, that was an interesting, you know when, when you it was sort of 5am, 6am, that sort of thing but in the early light of dawn, to see these things going up and not knowing what they were
MC: So, when did you leave 61 Squadron?
KG: Came then, on, and er, I left 61 to go down to Bottesford, for doing, doing these, we used to make, make up brand new engines for
MC: Oh, engine assembly
KG: Into power plants, we were, we were instead of a factory somewhere doing it, we were RAF people doing it, we could do it alright, we knew what we were about, we were all qualified people and, er, yes, it, it was interesting
MC: Had you got any promotions from then?
KG: No, no, it was no such thing then, out of the blue, we were slung in the, slung in the Navy
MC: So, there’s no [unclear]
KG: Which was not, [emphasis] not to our liking
MC: So, you finished up in the [unclear]
KG: So, I went off back to Padgate, Warrington, to go into the Navy, from the Air Force and there we were issued with all our naval gear. I was dressed as a taxi driver, because I was a fitter, other people were dressed as sailors, of course that suited them with the young ladies around, that suited them very much for a time, but they soon got fed up with it, all the year, and, err, we were not best pleased, we were definitely dis-chuffed, and the excuse, and they put us under armed guard, with the old barbed wire, and so forth, and that, that, really did knock people who were, you know, we didn’t like that and the politicians from London running around like scared rabbits, didn’t know what, what they were doing and they didn’t [laughs] but then they claimed they, they were propaganda game was who. The Army guard were pleased because we had got cheap cigarettes [laughs] anyways, it, it was a, talk about a hairs breath from really blowing up out there and really, we were dis-chuffed, we were very fed up indeed, [laughs]
KG: Yes, that was a, a not a very unhappy experience, then in the Navy. I was sent off to a squadron in Northern Ireland, with a, oh, [laughs] a, a low grade of training aircraft and we, one didn’t have, and I had very little regard for them and then
MC: [unclear] Can you remember what aircraft it was?
KG: Err, [pause] I could have done when I walked in [laughs], what was it
MC: [unclear]
KG: It was a single engined, target towing aircraft, and they used to tow a glider, tin, little tin gliders, fifteen-foot span, for, to be shot at by, RAF fighters in training, or Navy fighters in training. Then we left, they were building a ship at Belfast, which was, instead, they said you are going to be on our ship, for going out to Russia or Timbukthree, oh yes, before, by then, we had got Tiger force, who were going to have Lancasters to Siberia, would bomb, outbound, bomb Japan, land in the islands, re bomb and back into Russia. We were, we were quite, we could put up with that, we were, we thought that was quite interesting, and that’s where we were going to go you see, in the RAF, and then they bunged us in the Navy [laughs], all part of the story.
MC: What about flying yourself when you was, when you was
KG: I, I,
MC: When you was doing the servicing
KG: Right
MC: Did you do any test flights?
KG: In flying, I once went to the trouble, first time, a new boy, to get a parachute from stores, to go on a test flight, after doing an ordinary inspection, that’s an L plate, number one, new boy. By the time I got back, they were nearly fed up with waiting for me ‘cos I’d taken so long, to cycle across the airfield, find the stores, argue the toss with the store masters. Anyway, got back, and that’s the only time I ever got a parachute [laughs] and flew, from that time onwards, if I, if I mended it, I’ll fly it, I don’t want to know about parachutes [laughs], never again did I wear a parachute, [laughs] flying in the Air Force, that’s, that’s true [laughs]
MC: So, what was your role on the test flight, what did you do?
KG: Well I, sat on the, I looked around, sat in, lay on the rash bed or [laughs] what have you, err, you just hung around, just another, just another jolly [laughs]. I remember, from, Skellingthorpe, a young chap was a pilot, we’d done all the inspections and I, I as usual, I would always grab a flight if I could, after we’d done the inspection, and we, I can remember, I was standing in the astrodome, which was near the mid upper, and we were doing fighter affiliation as a, argy bargy with a Spitfire or Hurricane, or something and I remember looking up in the astrodome, and there was Newark [laughs] church spire looking up at me [laughs], I thought how come that, I’m upside down in a Lancaster [laughs] looking down [laughs] at the church tower [laughs]. Interesting experience
MC: How did that happen?
KG: Well, it was, we were [laughs] doing aerobatics in a Lancaster to avoid the fighter, and, and they went on ops that night, this would be late afternoon, they went on ops, that night and got the chop, never came back [laughs] probably the wings fell off [laughs] overstrained or something. Oh dear.
MC: What about socialising within the Air Force when you was off duty and -
KG: Well, we, we never had much socialising, curiously enough, as least I, I would nip off home if I could, you see, it was, that was the easiest way, and I could er, use my time personally, privately, rather better than, and RAF events, we had all the usual, booze up sort of parties and so on, but I, I didn’t drink then, [laughs] when you are younger you don’t, anyway, I used to go off home when I could, and, err, that was a case of bike, Skellingthorpe, took it in and away, err
MC: So, you had experience of the Packard Merlin?
KG: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, I -
MC: Was there much difference?
KG: Packard, oh, very different, but Stromberg carburettors, are, a, a, it’s a whole chapter on its own, SU’s, yes, I know, I know about SU’s, but Stromberg’s, they were a challenge, they were a very involved pieces of machinery, but jolly good, first class, Merlin 24’s, they were fitted to, yeh, anyway, I went into the Navy, after all, all that
MC: So, what aircraft did you work on in the Navy?
KG: Oh, these useless single engine, target towing things, and, er, and that [unclear] in Northern Ireland, oh dear, Northern Ireland, far side, you were there -
Other: Dublin?
KG: No, far side
Other: Far side of Ireland?
KG: Northern Ireland
Other: Northern Ireland? Why you come to er-
MC: Ballykelly
Other: Strabane
KG: No, no, bigger city
Other: A city?
KG: Yes, ah, [emphasis] the capital of Northern Ireland
Other: Belfast?
KG: No, opposite side, opposite side, far, far side
Other: Well, the capital is at this side
KG: Yes, yes, I know
Other: Belfast
KG: It’s the next, er, no, it’s, er, big city, beyond side of Ireland
Other: Well, there’s Limavady
KG: Northern Ireland, no, next to Limavady, and it’s quite a small place, next door to Limavady, further over, the big city, where all the, the, erm -
Other: Cork?
KG: No, no, north
Other: Yeah
MC: So, you were at Derry
KG: Yeah
MC: With the Navy?
KG: Yes, yeah
MC: So, what, where did you go from there?
KG: Then we were moved to, Cornwall, which was er, [laughs] not the brightest idea, especially as they got off the train somewhere at Crewe, then the train went, and then we found that we shouldn’t have got off, that was a genius [emphasis] naval officer, [laughs]
MC: Oh, was that still with the Navy to Cornwall?
KG: Yes, [laughs] and then I was at there, down there at Cornwall, Padstow was the end of the line, the buffers, and you couldn’t go any further, and that was then, you got off there, and you got on a garry and went to the airfield, an RAF airfield, modern built, big runways, and they served us in the Fleet Air Arm, not just in the Navy, but what was it called, north shore of Cornwall [pause] oh, dear oh dear, big airfield
MC: St Mawgan
KG: No, it’s next to there,
Other: You’ve got Wellington down there haven’t you
KG: No but, we had, in fact, they, 61 Squadron put some Lancasters to fly down to Spain from there, we lost them, Mk 2’s, from 61 Squadron, you know where I mean, I, I, it just goes blank on me, you haven’t got an atlas with you? No, [pause]
MC: So, this was a holiday estate on the north shore of Cornwall, was it?
KG: Yeh, and that was where, where, near Padstow, and then you go inland and there was the airfield, but, and on the coast, going the opposite way, there was this er, holiday resort
MC: So, were you there until you finished in the Air, in the Navy, or finished it during the end of the war
KG: No, no, they, they explained that I wouldn’t usually get out, and I would say when, when do I get my ticket, oh no you can’t, with the Navy you have to wait until your replacements come, it’ll take two or three years, and so I said words to the effect of stuff that, and so I had a word with higher up, I didn’t tell my theoretical seniors, I went over their head and said there’s a way of me getting a broken educational continuity course, civilianisation, and so forth, where, where, do I get the course for that, and suddenly out of the blue, I was posted to this naval college, which was, oh yeah, Salisbury part of the world, I mean, it’s just gone blank on me
MC: When was that?
KG:’45, I, I went then and my lot who were saying you can’t go, they couldn’t do anything about it, I said, ‘you can’t argue with head office, I’ve gone,’ so off I went, and I spent, er, er, five or six weeks becoming a civilian, we were all ranks, commissioned and non-commissioned, it was very, [laughs] and we went round visiting companies to see how companies run in civvy street, and so forth, [laughs] it was a good five or six weeks, and then when I got back, they’d, they’d found a replacement for me, and I, very shortly, I went down to Plymouth, and, and got my civilian establishment, papers, and so forth, and left them.
MC: So, post war what was your reaction to the job you did and the work you did?
KG: Well, I went back into the office and then, picked up where I’d been
MC: I’m thinking about your thoughts, on, you know, on the war itself
KG: Well
MC: And what you did and -
KG: I just worked in an office, that’s all I could -
MC: As a flight engineer
KG: No, as a clerk
MC: No, I meant during the war, what did you think of the work you’d done during the war
KG: Well, I thought I was not doing a bad job, I’d, I’d done technically, I’d learnt everything I could, I was interested, [emphasis] I learnt everything I could about Rolls Royce, I considered myself a cut, er, you know, I knew what I was doing, the other lot, not necessarily, and when we were building up power plants, you felt that you were part of the, it is, it’s a strange thing because to find yourself in effect being rather like Rolls Royce works and building their power plants which is what we were doing and we were turning out a lot of power plants, and er, they were going out on ops and being broken [laughs] etc. and we were turning out
MC: So, obviously post war then, you said you went in an office
KG: I went back into the office, and er, ultimately, I became an outside rep, and then I came up to Scunthorpe and opened a new office, the first, first North Lincolnshire office, I was running the whole caboodle
MC: I gather you ultimately achieved your ambition to fly
KG: Well, no, that went on, I then left the insurance company and went as, I joined the chairman of my commercial group, as his PA, and, and, ultimately, became the director of all the companies at Scunthorpe, and we, and anyway, there was a lot of business things I was running new lines in business in Cornwall, and Chester etc. etc., we were, we were, tied up with the sewer works, I went to, I did a tour of America and so forth, with the, with the, tying up with business people as, as I say I became a director of eight or nine companies and in the meantime -
MC: So, where did the flying come in?
KG: Oh, oh, then, but I started, I stayed in [unclear] in motor sport, car rallying, and so forth, navigating and so forth, I was in things like, all the Daily Express rallies. I was driving and co-driving and navigating on those etc. it was a pretty busy sort of existence er, I forget, one forgets about and then I, heard about flying and I thought oh I’ll try this, and started with the local Lincoln flying club, and went on and on and on ultimately flying, involved with more exotic sort of flying, and through twin engines, and night flying and airways and all sorts of things, and, er, in business I was using it of course as well because it was convenient sometimes to fly here, there and everywhere and I was a qualified, qualified pilot in night airways etc. and radio etc. etc. etc., oh well, and so it went on
MC: Er, do you, do you keep in touch with many of your colleagues from the RAF days?
KG: Er, I’m afraid there aren’t many of us left [laughs]. I’ve gone to the squadron association, and that’s, I’ve regarded that as my main link and people who I used to know have passed away or gone on, I, don’t know, these links decay and fall but Skellingthorpes the only one really that is, is my active one
MC: Well, thank you very much Kenneth
KG: Not very natural, but, er, I’m sorry, I’m, iffing and butting, but
MC: No
KG: Er, one forgets and time goes on you see, and then I retired in my sixties, but, er, I, I, then, I was the founder, and Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce, new Chamber of Commerce, North Lincolnshire and so forth, North Lindsey as we call it, erm, etc., it, it just happens, and suddenly you realise, you’re eighty not sixty, [laughs]
MC: And how old are you now?
KG: Ninety-three
MC: But, it’s been lovely talking to you Kenneth
KG: Anyway, I’m sorry I’m, I’ve, been -
MC: No, it’s
KG: Wandering and I can’t remember, and anyway, you’ve helped to remind me of -
MC: Thank you
KG: And names and -
MC: Tell me about this trip up to er, Yorkshire then, what, what -
KG: What was the name of the airfield inland from -
Other: From where?
KG: From Bridlington
Other: From Bridlington, it would be Driffield
KG: Driffield
MC: Yes, so you finished
KG: I had this aircraft, 61 Squadron aircraft, and landed at Driffield, been shot up, MU crowd had rebuilt it there, we went up to spent 2 or 3 days sorting it out, weather went clampers, so we were stuck with no gear, no nothing [laughs] I know we went down to, Bridlington, and, and, shall I say extracted some free money out of the penny in the slot machines, by devious means [laughs] oh dear, anyway, then the weather improved, and that’s when we separated, everybody went off but I was left with the aircraft and the incoming CO from 61 Squadron, and the signals leader, so it was a three man crew for a Lancaster [laughs]
MC: You flew as flight engineer, did you?
KG: I flew as flight engineer, I was, I was the crew [emphasis] flight engineer, everything [laughs] you don’t argue with a CO, I mean, I had probably been in as many Lancasters as him, running up and one thing and another, but it was all part of fun and games, that would be ‘44, can’t remember when, it was before, oh, before I went to Bottesford, so it would be ‘44, summer, yeah, [laughs] you forget these things, I do.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Kenneth Shelton Green
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Mike Connock
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-13
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Sound
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AGreenKS150713
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
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00:41:21 audio recording
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Kenneth Green was born on the 17th January 1922 at Pleasley, near Mansfield and worked with the Carlton Auxillary Fire Service before joining the Royal Air Force at the age of 20.
He trained as an engineer after he was unable to fly due to eye problems, and worked on a variety of engines, including the Bristol Hercules, Packard Merlin and the Rolls Royce Merlin engines.
He tells of his time on base, the explosion that took the life of his friend, and the work he completed on the Avro Lancasters and worked on the Mark 1, 2 and 3’s.
Kenneth joined 61 Squadron, and served at Skellingthorpe and Bottesford, before working with the Royal Navy where he worked on single engine aircraft.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
61 Squadron
bombing up
fitter engine
ground crew
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 2
Lancaster Mk 3
military living conditions
Nissen hut
RAF Bottesford
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
service vehicle
tractor
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/543/8783/PHildrethJ1502.1.jpg
8ed4834a7c5568e0404e563b1c55b83c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/543/8783/AHildrethJ150602.2.mp3
9c277bc52941b2a1f31fd5a984fb243f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hildreth, Jeff
J Hildreth
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Hildreth
Description
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Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Jeff Hildreth (1924 - 2017, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 170 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-06-02
2015-08-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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MC: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock, the interviewee is Mr Jeff Hildreth. The interview is taking place at Mr Hildreths’ home at Sutton-in-Ashfield on 2nd June 2015. OK Jeff, tell me a bit about your early days, when and where you were born.
JH: Well it was at Huntwood, Derbyshire, and my father was a miner, and by the time we got to the war breaking out it was ‒, I decided that I was going to join the RAF because my dad recommended it because he said it was very muddy in the trenches. He was in the Great War. And, well I was called up eventually but I joined the ATC and because you joined that you could qualify for what they called the PNB scheme (Pilot, Navigator, Bomb Aimer) which I did do. I was a bloody idiot, you can erase that if you want [laugh], but I did not ‒, I could have become commissioned and I turned it down, but then that was just a little boy from a little village and it didn’t seem to fit, ‘cause I probably made another mistake somewhere in my life, but that was the daftest one, but nevertheless I did join the ATC and eventually ‒, it’s a long time ago and ‒, but I was going through the various sections and ‒, oh by the time I was called up I remember now, by the time I was called up there was no requirement for pilot, navigator and bomb aimer but there was ‒, so therefore I took the next best thing which was a wireless operator but ‒, and I qualified on the course. That was no problem when I think now ‒, when I say I was qualified, and I think somewhere there they did offer me a commission and again I turned it down. It’s difficult to put the conception to other people but I was just a young lad from a mining village, to be an officer and be in charge didn’t seem to fit. Now I know differently of course, because in the RAF it is very different and so ‒.
MC: What did you do before you joined up? Did you work? Were you working?
JH: I went to night school and studied electrical engineering and I got my ‒, oh, what was it? It wasn’t my AMIEE, it was a HNC, Higher National Certificate, I did that at Worksop Technical College but then, as a result of that, I was employed by the East Midlands Electricity Board and was given a day off a week to go and study again and I did, and I got through that one all right er ‒.
MC: Where did you do your wireless operator training?
JH: Oh that was automatic of course, Yatesbury, the first three months learning Morse code and such like as that, which I never expected that what I ‒, how good, how good I ought to have been compared to how good I really was. It was better to put how bad I was. Let’s see now, I lived at Langold, which is between Worksop and Doncaster and er ‒, let me think. No, that bits gone. It doesn’t seem too long ago.
MC: How long were you at Yatesbury?
JH: Sorry?
MC: How long were you at Yatesbury?
JH: Oh it was three months at Yatesbury, well to start with the first 3 months was nothing else but classroom and then the next three months it was so-called flying training and, which we went on Ansons I believe, I think it’s in there. It was in Ansons and ‒, oh but I’m trying to think where it was. It might have been Scampton. I was at all the stations, Lindholme and so on, the other places, but er ‒.
MC: So where did you go from your wireless operator training? You must have gone to an operational training unit?
JH: Yes, and that was all up in Yorkshire er ‒, I do apologise.
MC: Finningley?
JH: Is it in there?
MC: The 18 OTU out at Finningley.
JH: Yes, that would be it and we were flying Ansons.
MC: 18 OTU were probably Wellingtons.
JH: We went on to Wellingtons but I started on Ansons but that was ‒, oh Finningley, which therefore was not very far from my home in Worksop, and therefore, I used to have my bicycle in camp and whenever I got a weekend off, which was every weekend, I got my bike out and I cycled home and because of that, when it came to crewing up, I suppose I’m not a very open minded person, as you know, I wasn’t good at making friends here there and everywhere, at least not on the surface shall I say but there was one wireless operator too many on the course and so therefore, I offered to be the spare man and not crew up and so I didn’t crew up until it got to the very end of the course and someone went sick and because of that, ‘You are in that crew now’, and that’s how I crewed up and er ‒.
MC: Can you remember the names of the crew?
JH: The actual crew?
MC: The crew.
JH: I don’t know, it was Flight Lieutenant John Baxter from Sheffield, he might have only been a flying officer, I’m not sure, at the time. The bomb aimer came from Huddersfield I think, the navigator came from God’s own country, born in Prince Edward Island, Canadian, and ‒, but the two gunners again ‒, what they were doing, they were closing down the training area because somebody in their wisdom said they got enough, and so my two gunners were both flight lieutenant ex-gunnery trainers and it was Flight Lieutenant Walter Gordon and Flight Lieutenant [unclear] you look up page number two, I think.
MC: So after the OTU you went to the Heavy Conversion Unit?
JH: Oh, that’s right, that was on Halifaxes and ‒, but then you did six weeks on Halifaxes and then you went on to a Lanc finishing school course and that was one year and that was where ‒, and of course, you were supposed to be crewing up all the time, but all I was interested in was being a spare man so I could keep going home weekends on my bike, but then last minute somebody was sick and that’s how I got in John Baxter’s crew.
MC: So when ‒, you then got posted to your squadron?
JH: Well, I think, let me think now. Lanc finishing course, I think. Was it Hemswell? I believe, I’m not sure, and we went down to Scampton for the formation of 170 and then speed back up to Hemswell to take on those flying duties, and so ‒.
MC: What can you remember about that, your first operation then?
JH: Oh, when you looked out forward and I’ve got the astrodome, I could stand up there and as a wireless operator, keep radio silence. That was perfect, it meant I’d got nothing to do except I did follow the ‒, I can’t remember the name of our radar. Fishpond, it was called Fishpond, and it was the aerial was underneath the aircraft, so I could tell if anybody was coming in from underneath and so in actual fact, I could press that button from somewhere and stand up look to in the astrodome as well, I could look at the screen and everything. I ‒, oh the main thing I did was, that when I looked out ‒, I think it was in my mind, I’m sorry there, I was going onto daylight trips and that, I think, was about number twelve and there, if you looked ahead, you could see a bank of clouds which was the anti-aircraft guns exploding, just a bank of black clouds and I sort of recall, it might be that by then the skipper was a flight lieutenant and as such was in the forefront, and we went into that and all I can tell you is that somewhere along the way the skipper says, ‘Right we’re going out’, and we went through that cloud and we looked back, and we could see all the others we’d left behind. So I mean it was ‒, it was a funny crew in a way, I mean the Canadian and myself got on quite well. To be quite honest with you, we didn’t take to the flight engineer because he’d been a warden in a naughty boys school, so if you can picture him, no, but the ‒, as I say, the navigator was from PEI and the rest was good and quite honestly I thoroughly ‒, I shouldn’t say ‒, you don’t enjoy it because every time you go, you’re looking at where all the anti-aircraft is bursting and so it’s like as that, and, of course, you’re becoming more senior with each trip so therefore you were nearer the front and nearer the point for getting [unclear] and getting away, at least that’s my version of it.
MC: So you carried on your night operations and then your day operations. How many flight ops did you complete entirely?
JH: Er, what’s number twelve? That’s it, sorry.
MC: I was looking ‒
JH: Fourteen, that’s night-time, if it’s in red, it’s night-time, oh and that’s another one, fourteen to Eastburg, sorry. Oh yes, that was a Lancaster, and all of a sudden, they fired at us and we got out of the way. We were target with a friend, he might have been on his first trip perhaps, I don’t know.
MC: So you survived pretty well from all your operations. No mishaps? Apart from that of course.
JH: No, I did survive very well and to be quite honest, that was a thought in my head all the time, because very often when you went to a briefing, they might tell you what happened the last time we went there or something like that, but slowly but surely you were told of people who did not come back off their first trip, and it was like blithely going on, you don’t know why, whether the angel was looking after you or what, I don’t know but er ‒, and as I say, in a way we were a funny crew. I knocked about with the navigator and we used to get down into Gainsborough as often as possible and we went to ‒, what do they call the ladies who looked after you?
MC: A brothel?
JH: No [laugh], CWS or something, and you could go to a place in Gainsborough.
MC: WVS.
JH: Pardon?
MC: WVS.
JH: Yes, and you could go to a place in Gainsborough and they’d always got ‒, you could buy these buns, you know, any array of them, they’d all been making them at home. And they’d got a ‒, I think they’d got a billiard table so that suited me as well ‘cause I was trying to learn, and so that was quite enjoyable really. Then somehow, we must have got ‒, I’m trying to think of transport, but I don’t know how we got into Gainsborough and how we got back, but of course it didn’t matter, you knew when you were going on ops because of course, they put a battle order up and if you weren’t on that, away you went to Gainsborough and a day out and ‒,
MC: So how many operations did you complete in total?
JH: I think I completed twenty-nine actually, but with a bit of fiddling, you can say I did thirty. If you look at the bulls ‒, the first thing I did was a bullseye. Now a bullseye, before the operations, a bullseye was where there they sent a force of aircraft over to the foreign ‒, to the European coast, like the Dutch or such like and I’m sorry, yeah, and therefore you were into enemy territory because you went to the coast and what we were doing was to draw the enemy forces to that point because, if you’ve got a fighter, he can only be up in the air for so long as he’s got fuel, so if when we went to, say Gainsborough to, er, Belgium, they had to put their fighters up in the air and that was using some of their fuel. This is what I was told, probably a pack of lies, and then we turned and came home and the main force went in somewhere else, a little further down the coast or something, but we had withdrawn the enemy fire, if you like. I think that was the idea behind it.
MC: Of course, the war ended when you came to the end of your tour anyway?
JH: It did yes.
MC: But you carried on though, didn’t you?
JH: I did, I think I’d just started, done one trip or something, in a Lincoln.
MC: Before that did you do any ‒, Operation Manna, dropping food supplies?
JH: Er ‒, I think so, might have done. Is it in there? Oh yeah, that was low level stuff because yes, and that was stuff that was hung up in the bomb bay and we went low down and dropped it, yes.
MC: To the Dutch.
JH: Yes, but ‒.
MC: You also went on [unclear]
JH: Oh yes, yes, we went to Berlin and we spent a little time in Berlin er ‒, and no, the only thing I can remember in Berlin was that there was a lot of young ladies there, but they had a price and I think the going rate was about twenty cigarettes and er ‒, I think I helped other people. I was a village lad so you know, I don’t think I knew what it was all about at all. So ‒.
MC: Of course, you wouldn’t have been very old at that time.
JH: No.
MC: You would still have only been a young lad.
JH: Yeah, I’d be about twenty-two at most, yeah, but er ‒.
MC: So you then went on to Lincolns.
JH: Yes, and oh, I was gonna say, I don’t know, we were fetching soldiers home.
MC: Operation Exodus.
JH: Yeah.
MC: That’s what they called it.
JH: Yes, er ‒, and we went to Pomergliano, Pommy, I think I did about two or three trips to Pommy, and one to Bari down in Italy. It was quite good. I was quite [unclear], we used to get twenty soldiers into the bomb bay and they were issued with a blanket, a typical Army blanket, that’s what they sat on, and one or two naturally had never flown before, so therefore I was quite experienced, ‘No problem mate’, you know, ‘He’s a good skipper’, thumbs up, and, ‘What’s it like taking off?’ and so on, and I says, ‘No problem, you just fasten up. As long as you relax your body, you’ll never feel a thing. Don’t matter what’s happening’. But the main thing going on those Dodge trips, having got out there, we prayed for bad weather in England so that we had to stay there, because it was near Naples and I thoroughly enjoyed that part of it. I mean, I saw the old city of ‒, I don’t know whether it was Herculaneum or something like that, but it was the old city and of course, there was Vesuvius, always spouting a little bit of smoke and er ‒, I, to be quite honest, the rate of exchange was beautiful, er ‒, I think the official rate of exchange was four hundred lira to the pound, but you could get eight hundred out on the streets, and if you pushed it or bought something, you could even get more than that, so I had ‒, I know I did bring something home, but you know, little bits. I thoroughly enjoyed that.
MC: So you did quite a few of these Dodge trips, didn’t you?
JH: Yeah.
MC: You went to Bordeaux as well.
JH: Ah, that was where I think somebody had a ‒, lost an engine and landed there and so therefore we flew there, along with somebody else. One crew took the repair crew to make good on the aircraft that had landed there and we went and picked up the survivors, some of the survivors, and brought them home, and that was why we went to Bordeaux. Ah, Bordeaux, and [laugh] the ladies of the night were there in Bordeaux in large numbers but again, I was too young [laugh].
MC: So when did your service finish after the war? You went on to Lincolns you said?
JH: Oh yes, they were bringing them in and so therefore we went onto them er ‒, I don’t think I did many trips on Lincolns.
MC: I didn’t realise, you went to 12 Squadron for a while?
JH: I did and I went to 100 Squadron somewhere. I don’t know, but I was ‒, but I think also ‒, what was I going to do back in Civvy Street? I had no idea, I had no idea, and so therefore I was much preferring to stick in the RAF. I don’t mean permanently, but it delayed the decision as to what I was going to do when I did finally come out ‒. Oh, a friend of my brothers was an engineer with the East Midlands Electricity Board and through him, I got a job. Oh good Lord, yes. I was mating a linesman. He went up the pole and he got a sash line. He told you what he wanted so you learnt how to tie it on and make it easy to undo and that was it. So I was ‒, but I was supposed actually ‒, I did eventually qualify as a linesman’s mate, but I was never really a good linesman’s mate and ‒, but as I say, somewhere along the line ‒, oh, one of the engineers with the Electricity Board was a friend of my brothers, and so I ‒, it was through him, he recommended me to go to night school, and I got a day off a week, every week I got a day off to go to night school, and whoever I was working with used to love it because they’d got nothing to do, so I carried on at night school. I got my HNC, or Higher National Certificate if you like, and then I qualified ‒. Oh, I got my AMIEE and then eventually, they made me an engineer and that was me. I was an engineer and that is it, which meant I’d got enough money to get married on.
MC: And when was that?
JH: I should know, shouldn’t it? It’s the 26th of August but I’m blowed if I ‒, I was about twenty-five.
MC: Going back to your Lincoln days, you were with 100 Squadron in Lincolns?
JH: Yeah.
MC: That was a different skipper though.
JH: Oh yes. We broke up altogether because the navigator, being Canadian, he shot off as fast as he could, he was quite happy to go and I think when I was on Lincolns, without saying I’m shooting a line, I was with new trainees coming through, I don’t know. That is correct, yes.
MC: So tell me about that. It says, ‘’Shot down by a Mosquito”.
JH: Yes, why am I ‒? It was ‒, we weren’t shot down by a Mosquito. We were flying along by a Mosquito and I believe the Mosquito claimed a kill, I’m not sure, but we put him down to being a newcomer, trigger happy I suppose, I don’t know. Oh, Operation Capsize, but no Fishpond because with Fishpond, we were very good because we flew low level and I got to interpret, and with a map, I could interpret and I would just tell the skipper, ‘There’s a railway crossing coming up’, and I do know on some, there was a railway going across an embankment and we had to climb to get over it, we were flying at such low level.
MC: Did you ever used H2S radar?
JH: We used H2S a little bit, I’m not sure what that actually did.
MC: It had a screen as well, a bit like Fishpond.
JH: But I believe, and I believe with H2S you could see your target, or something like that.
MC: It was a ground mapping radar.
JH: Ah, I preferred Fishpond.
MC: So you remained in the electricity job the rest of your life then, when you came out of the Air Force, engineering?
JH: Oh yes, yes, well I was in this East Midlands Electricity Board and they used to give me a day off a week and provided you passed at the end of year, and I simply kept passing, and so when I did finally get my fifth year, which was my Higher National Certificate, then that was it. They made me an engineer with the Electricity Board. It wasn’t very wonderful stuff to start with because I’d be on services, for instance, and there was an awful lot of places that had got no electricity, and so some ‒, oh, an application for electricity was going through in one department and if it was in our area, I got the car to go out and check and, you know, say, ’Yeah, it wants a twenty-two yard of red. We can do it'. ‘We can’t do this one underground’, ‘We’ve got to do it underground’, rather, or something like that er ‒, but where possible you slung a ‒, our overhead service. I don’t suppose there’s many of them left now, but it was a number eight copper wire, you put two [unclear] from inside the house, through [unclear] to the top of the house, and at that point, we’d put a corner bracket on and we could put one big insulator on round which was turned this number eight copper, and then the service wire, which was ‒, would be ‒, that’s as far as we went. But then every, as I say, every foot would be a wiring clip, one of those standard ones that wrapped round with two ends and turned back. They were horrible things, they went right through. We did it long enough until my linesman, who I was meeting, climbed up and tapped on. And he was always wanting me to take over from him. I wouldn’t. I climbed up I think once with climbers and that’s ‒. I didn’t think much to it [pause], and he was making like, I’m sure, a picture, you know.
MC: A film movie?
JH: Editing film work.
MC: That was Air Commodore Cozens.
JH: Yes, I don’t know, I can’t remember.
MC: You’ve got a bit in your log book about the Grand National [unclear]
JH: That was after the war. Peace had been declared and so we went flying over places like Grand National or whatever it was and waved to all the cheering crowds.
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Interview with Jeff Hildreth
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Mike Connock
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-06-02
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AHildrethJ150602
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:35:16 audio recording
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Jeff Hildreth was born in Huntwood, Derbyshire and studied Electrical Engineering at Worksop Technical College before joining the Air Training Corp, before eventually joining the Royal Air Force as a Wireless Operator.
He did his training at Yatesbury and was there 3 months before moving to 18 Operational Training Unit at Finningley, where he flew Avro Ansons and Vickers Wellingtons. He was not assigned to a crew initially, becoming a spare man to fill in where necessary. He joined Flight Lieutenant John Baxters crew after someone fell ill.
Jeff moved to a Heavy Conversation Unit, flying Handley Page Halifaxes, before moving to a Avro Lancaster finishing school. He was then posted to Scampton for operational duties.
He completed 29 operations before taking part in Operation Manna, dropping food supplies in Holland. He then flew with 100 Squadron on Avro Lincolns taking part in Operation Exodus, bringing soldiers back home.
After the war ended, Jeff returned to his previous employer, the East Midlands Electricity Board where he used his Higher National Certificate to become a qualified Engineer.
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Vivienne Tincombe
100 Squadron
170 Squadron
18 OTU
aircrew
Lincoln
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Yatesbury
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/608/8877/AMcDonaldEA150713.2.mp3
691ba5094bf362ae14e81e637e868c57
Dublin Core
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Title
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McDonald, Edward Allan
E A McDonald
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IBCC Digital Archive
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McDonald, EA
Description
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Ten items. Two oral history interviews with Edward Allan McDonald (1922 - 2020, 1076170, Royal Air Force), a memoir, his log book, documents and photographs. He flew 28 operations as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Edward Allan McDonald and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2015-07-13
2015-09-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock. The interviewee is Alan McDonald and the interview is taking place at Skellingthorpe on the 13th of July 2015. Right, Alan just tell me a bit about where you were born like where you were born. When and where.
AM: Yeah. I’ll give you that information.
MC: Yeah if you will. Yeah. Go ahead. Please.
AM: I were born in Hull.
MC: Yeah. When was that?
AM: That would be the 27th of the 9th 1922.
MC: Tell us a bit about your early days at school and, you know —
AM: Well my early days at school were, I liked the teacher that I was under, one of the teachers anyway. And he says, Come out,’ what had happened was the old thing that was very common was to have an elastic band and blotting paper and double a piece of blotting paper about that width, double it over and you’d aim it at, so you’d hold it in your teeth, aim it at somebody from behind aim it at somebody you wanted to clobber and someone had done this and they’d missed the person they’d aimed at and hit the teacher with it. He was facing the blackboard. Mr Upton. And he says, ‘Come out McDonald.’ because I had done it a few times but on that particular occasion I hadn’t. So he says, I said, ‘It wasn’t me sir.’ So he said, ‘I said come out McDonald.’ So I went out. He said, ‘Hold your hand out.’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’m not going to get punished for something I haven’t done.’ So he said, ‘I said hold your hand out.’ He’d got the cane in his hand. So he grabbed, grabbed my hand so I thought well there’s only one thing to do and I kicked him on the shin and he let go because I’d kicked him on the shin and I ran out the room then and I ran home. Anyroad, I went the next morning. He says, ‘Come on. We’re friends.’ He said, ‘I’ve an apology to make to you.’ He said, ‘I don’t know what you’re going to say.’ I says ‘No,’ I says, ‘Well it wasn’t me sir.’ He said, ‘I know. I found out who it was and I’m sorry for putting you to the — ’ Well ‘I’m sorry then for kicking you.’ Now I know that so I got sat down and I was in good books with Mr Upton and after the war I went to do the electrical work on a brand new school they were building at a place called Longcroft which is just north of Beverley and we worked on that place from start to finish and each day when we got off the bus from Hull, well at that time I was living at Sutton, Hull which is part of Hull like you have — where are we here? We’re —
MC: Skellingthorpe from Lincoln.
AM: We’re Skellingthorpe and Lincoln. They’re more or less joined together the same. So was Sutton to Hull. It was part of Hull. A stranger wouldn’t know they were out of Hull if they went to Sutton. And anyway I used to each day go to work at this place at the other side of Beverley, catch a bus and where I got off the bus we had quite a way to walk and each day I saw him. And each day when I saw him he’s be like this — he’d get his hand on it and rub his shin in passing [laughs].
MC: So how old were you when you left? Left that school?
AM: Well I as I left on the day I was fourteen. I didn’t do very well at school but that, that was a bad thing really because I wanted to be aircrew and when I went to the recruiting office he says, ‘What do you want to do? What do you want to be?’ I said, ‘I’d like to be a pilot.’ So he says, ‘Just a minute,’ and he looked, ‘You haven’t a chance,’ So I says, ‘Why is that?’ He said, ‘You’ve not done very well at school,’ he said, ‘And if you haven’t got a secondary education you’re no good for air crew.’ So I said, ‘Oh well I shall have to do something about it if I can.’ So I’d joined up now and I went, I went to the electrical school. I failed. I went from there to a place called Nutts Corner in Ireland which was a Coastal Command station.
MC: Can I just go back a little bit? When you left school at fourteen what did you do between then and becoming —
AM: When I left school at fourteen —
MC: Becoming old enough to join the air force?
AM: I went, I went around the town looking to see if anybody wanted an apprentice and I went to a place called Booker and Tarran’s. Booker and Tarran, the name Tarran in Hull was as common a name as what Churchill is to the average person. Tarran’s were a well-known firm. There was, I think, I’m not sure about this but I’m going to think I’m right when I say there were seven sons of Tarrans — RG Tarran, SG Tarran, Martin Tarran, Ken Tarran and I don’t know the others, but Ken Tarran and Martin Tarran were the boss of the firm I went to. They were, they owned the firm and he says, ‘What did you want?’ He came to the office to see what I, as I was a boy, I was fourteen and I was in short trouFsers. What did you want? So he says, ‘And you want to be an electrician?’ So I said, ‘Yes I do.’ So he said, ‘Well how old are you and when do you leave school?’ I said, ‘I’ve left school.’ So he says, ‘Oh when did you leave school?’ I said, ‘Today. I’m fourteen today.’ So I’d not said anything at school. I just simply went to this firm Booker and Tarrans and Ken Tarran says to me, ‘Well why didn’t you ask your dad to come with you or get you fixed up with a job?’ I says, ‘My dad was dead when I was four.’ So he said, ‘Why what happened to your dad?’ I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, he was a blacksmith. He came down from Wallsend, Newcastle area through to Hull and he was supposed to be playing for Hull City as a footballer. And he was driving his motorbike and side car which was a Harley Davidson motorbike sidecar to his work at what they called Springhead in Hull which is a railway siding. It’s a big one too. And enroute to going to work with his motorbike and side car a crane swung a railway line across the road and it fell off the crane and fell on my father and his motorbike. And he ended up in hospital in the Hull Royal Infirmary which is no longer there now, it was pulled down. But my mother had been to see him like say maybe tonight and they said, ‘Would you bring his clothes in the morning? He’s coming out.’ So my mother the next morning took his clothes for him to come out the hospital and the nurse says to my mother, ‘What have you brought his clothes for?’ So she said, ‘He’s coming out this morning.’ She said, ‘He isn’t. He died during the night.’ So, apparently he’d got hypostatic pneumonia. I think I’ve got that word right. I’ve tried to anyway. I may be wrong with it but anyroad it was something of the description that I’ve given. And from there onwards my mother had to go to the coroner’s court, and at the coroner’s court my mother was questioned could she do this, could she do that, could she do the other. Yes. The answer was yes to all the questions he asked. He said, ‘Well in that case you don’t need compensation. You can work for a living. So if you get yourself a job you won’t need compensation.’ So she didn’t get any. And she had to go to work and went to work at Reckitts in Hull which was a well-known firm then. I don’t know if they still are but it was a well-known firm and that’s where my mother went to work packing starch.
MC: You, so you worked, you worked at this firm until you joined the air force?
AM: I worked from, I got the job at Booker and Tarrans which was down Waltham Street which is in the centre of the town and I was apprenticed with them until I finished my time. So —
MC: How old were you then?
AM: Well I’d come out the air force and I had a certain length of time to do and I had to do this certain length of time at apprentice’s rates.
MC: Oh I see. So you joined the air force part way through your apprenticeship.
AM: Yes I did.
MC: Ah yeah so —
AM: And I joined. I went to Henlow, well I started off at Padgate
Other: Yes.
AM: And that would be 1940, and 1940 I went to Henlow. No. No. No. I didn’t. I went to Morecambe. January 1940 I went to Morecambe to do my square bashing and then from Morecambe I went through to Henlow and I took the electrical course there and I didn’t, I didn’t pass. I failed. And from there I went then to Northern Ireland. I went to Nutts Corner and they put me on duty. On flare path duty there which, I liked that job. That’s working with flying control and I was in the spotter box at the start of the runway. That was a good, good number. And then after that I got another job. I got onto the — now what do they call it now? A dummy, a dummy aerodrome anyway for Jerry to bomb and I used to look after the diesel. What do you call them?
Other: The flares.
AM: Hmmn?
Other: The flare path?
AM: No. No it wasn’t. It was a dummy flare path.
Other: Oh a dummy flare path. Yeah.
AM: It was in bogs.
Other: Yes.
AM: And that was up in a place called [Sleavan Lecloy?] which wasn’t far from between Lisburn and Stonyford. And I liked that job as well. It was good. I did quite well in the air force. Now then, I used to, I plagued the warrant officer, station warrant officer, I wanted to be air crew. He said, ‘I’ve told you you can’t be aircrew because you’ve not, you’ve not got a secondary education and you haven’t done very well at school either.’ So I said, ‘Well I still want to be aircrew.’ So I said, ‘Can’t you fix me up with a job anywhere in the aircraft?’ So, I didn’t realise the qualifications necessary then. Anyway, he said, ‘I’ll see what I can do.’ So I’d been that many times he said his hair was beginning to fall out. Anyway, I was carrying on from there. The tannoy went. Would I report to the station education officer? So I thought station, what would I want him for? So I went into the station and found the location of the station education officer and went to see him, ‘Oh you’re the one that’s causing all the trouble.’ So I said, ‘What trouble’s that?’ He said, ‘With the station warrant officer. You keep going to him. You want to be aircrew.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well’ he said, ‘If you’re really sincere and you really mean what you say I’ll set you some exams. And if you pass the exams that I set you, if you do, you will do if you want to be air crew and we’ll soon find out whether you do or not.’ So I had to go to him for some tuition first. After the tuition I sat for the exams. He said, ‘You’ve passed.’ No he didn’t, he said, ‘You have matriculated.’ Now, I’d never heard the word in my life before and I didn’t know what the word matriculate meant and I was later on to find out that it was to —
Other: Oh dear Alan.
AM: It was to qualify to go to university from what he’d said. And so he said —
Other: Good.
AM: ‘You’ve one further step to go yet. You’ve to go to RAF headquarters in Belfast and you’ve to pass an exam there and so you’ll go there. It’ll be arranged, you’ll soon be notified. You’ll go there and if you don’t pass there you don’t go to aircrew. If you pass there you’ll go for aircrew.’ So I went there and I was there for a fortnight at RAF headquarters. And during the course of me being there unwittingly I was causing a laugh but I didn’t realise I was at the time, because a certain lady says — when I arrived there there was a WVS van outside the, it’s a place as big as Buckingham Palace nearly, this place where the headquarters were. It was a huge place and I went to the WVS van. She said, ‘Is your name McDonald?’ I said, ‘Why? What do you want?’ I said, ‘I’ve only just arrived. You’re not mistaking me for somebody are you?’ She says, ‘McDonald?’ So I said, ‘Yes. McDonald.’ She says, ‘Oh. Well your tea and your cake’ which was tuppence, a penny for your cake and a penny for your cup of tea, that’s what it was then and I’d got the tuppence out to pay. She said, ‘Don’t waste your money. It’s paid for.’ So I says, ‘No.’ I said, ‘There’s some mistake.’ I said, ‘I’m not the only McDonald in the world. There’s plenty more of us.’ I said, ‘It must be somebody else. Not me.’ She says, ‘You. You’ve come from a Coastal Command station haven’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes I have.’ She said, ‘Well it’s you.’ So, so anyway I carried on and what actually happened was I went into the room. There was two big, two doors at the side of this room and these rooms they had doors which were that thick, nearly six inches thick, the doors. Heavy, huge heavy doors. She says, ‘You want the door on the left and if you go in there there’s seventeen WAAFs and you will make three airmen.’ So I says, ‘Oh is that where we’re having — ‘
Other: That’s a challenge
AM: ‘Having our tea and cakes?’ She said, ‘Yes that’s where you’re having your tea and cake.’ Now this WAAF came to me and she says, ‘Here you are Mac.’ I thought, ‘How do you know me?’ I couldn’t fathom this out. She said, ‘Here’s your tea and your cake.’ So I said, ‘Well they told me I haven’t to buy one because somebody had bought me one.’ I said, ‘Do you know me?’ She said, ‘Yes.’ I says, ‘I don’t know you.’ So she says, ‘Oh never mind.’ She says, ‘I’m paying for the tea and the cake.’ ‘Look,’ I said, ‘You’re, I’m an LAC. An LAC denoted I wasn’t AC1. I wasn’t AC2. I was the next one up.
Other: You knew what was what.
AM: Leading Aircraft man.
Other: Yeah.
AM: And I was LAC. I said, ‘You can’t afford to be paying for tea and cakes for me.’ I said, ‘I’m an LAC.’ I said, ‘You’re only an AC1 or an AC2.’
Other: Yeah.
AM: So she says, ‘I’m paying for your tea and your cake.’ I said, ‘You’re not.’ I says, ‘I’m paying for it. You’re not going to.’ I said, ‘What do you think kind of a name I’ll get taking money off a WAAF that’s not even the same rank as me?’ So she says, ‘I’m paying for the tea and the cake.’ So I says, ‘Well I’ll pay for it tomorrow then.’ She said, ‘You won’t.’ I said, ‘I will.’ So anyroad, each day it went on like this until it came to the day before I was due to go back to my station which was the Thursday. I were there for a fortnight. And at the, the, on the Thursday I said, ‘Now look here,’ I says, ‘You’ve been paying for my tea and cakes each day now for a fortnight.’ I said, ‘Let me give you a lump sum for the lot,’ I said, ‘And then I don’t owe you anything.’ I said, ‘You’re going to get me talked about. An LAC taking money off a WAAF that’s a lower rank than he is. What kind of a person am I gonna be?’ So this WAAF stood up. She says, ‘Stop playing green will you.’ So I said, ‘What are you on about stop playing green?’ I said, ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about. Why am I playing green? What does playing green mean?’ She said, ‘You’re after that castle.’ So I said, ‘A castle? What castle are you on about?’ She said, ‘You know what it is and you’re playing green.’ So I said, ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about. How am I playing green?’ I says, ‘This WAAF here has been paying for my tea and cakes and then she won’t let me pay.’ I said, ‘And she’s on a lower rank then me.’ I said, ‘I’m an LAC,’ and I said, ‘She’s only an AC1 or AC2. I don’t know which.’ So she says, ‘Oh you are putting it on.’ So I says, ‘Putting what on?’ She said, ‘You’re trying to make out you don’t know what I’m talking about,’ which I didn’t. I hadn’t the foggiest idea. She said, ‘You know that’s the queen’s sister.’ So I says, ‘It never is. What are you giving me that?’ With this this WAAF that had been giving me my tea and that she went out and slammed the door. And that was the end of the connection. God, I was back to camp the next day but that’s that was that little story.
Other: That would have been, so, Margaret Rose. The queen’s sister.
AM: No. This is Queen Elizabeth’s sister.
Other: Yes.
AM: During the war.
Other: Yes, that was Margaret Rose.
AM: Oh I don’t know.
Other: That was her sister.
AM: I couldn’t say.
MC: So you got accepted for aircrew then.
AM: Yes, I got, I passed for air crew there and within a few days I was off to —
Other: With notoriety.
AM: St John’s Wood in London and whilst I was there they bombed, I think it was the Palais de Dance.
Other: Right.
AM: Somewhere there got bombed while we were there. And I enjoyed being there. I was there a fortnight I think it was. And then from there I went to — St John’s Wood we went to Evanton in Scotland.
MC: By that time had you —
Other: Evanton. Sorry.
MC: Can I, by that time, can I ask you had you been selected for air gunner? Was it decided what you were going to do?
AM: Yes I was selected to go as air gunner and I went to Evanton in Scotland. Now it’s this is what, I got off the station at Inverness and the station, whatever he was, says to me, ‘Are you puzzled? Are you lost?’ I said, ‘Well I don’t know which platform to be on.’ So he said, ‘Where do you want to be?’ So I says, ‘Evanton.’ ‘Nowhere here called Evanton. Let’s have a look at your pass.’ So I give him my pass. ‘You mean Everton.’ Well, I said, ‘Where’s the E R in it? There’s no E R in it. It’s E V A N T O N.’ Everton. Evanton. So he says, ‘In here they call it Everton. So you want to be on that platform there.’ So I got on the platform to Evanton. You go through Evanton and you come to where I was. This station. And I was flying on Avro Ansons with Polish pilots and we did gunnery practice from there firing at a wooden tank on the beach. We flew up the mountainside there. There was a statue at the top. What it was about I don’t know. And the Polish pilots used to fly, there was wires across this this mountain and we used to fly beneath the wires going up the mountain side to the top. To the monument. And then he’d just miss the monument, this was in Avro Ansons, and I did my training there for gunnery. I did photo, photo, photo gunning. Oh what do they call it now? It has a name. Anyroad you had a camera in your door and you did photography with that with a camera gun. And I went from there to Market Harborough and at Market, no it wasn’t Market Harborough I don’t think. But it I think it might have been Market Harborough but the name of the place was [pause] its where you crewed up. We didn’t have a crew and Johnny Meadows, he’s on this photograph here this [rustling of papers]. Now this is him. That man there that’s Johnny Meadows. He became our mid-upper and I was the rear gunner. That’s me there. That man there was Britain’s, one of Britain’s top dancers. They called him Taggerty. There he is. That man there was a dancing champion of Britain. Taggerty. That man. Anyway —
MC: So that was. What were you flying then at Market Harborough, you said?
AM: Market Harborough was flying Wellingtons there. We crashed in the Wellington there. What actually happened was we took off and I said to the skipper, ‘There’s a strong smell of petrol in the rear turret.’ So he said, ‘Well, I don’t know where it’s coming from Mac but everything’s registering. Everything’s perfect up front.’ We was on night bombing. Practice bombing. And so the second time I said, ‘It’s getting stronger skipper.’ So the third time I said, ‘It’s getting stronger still.’ And the fourth time I said, ‘I’m soaked to the skin in petrol skipper.’ So he says, ‘Oh well we’ll make it back to base. We’ll cancel the bombing and go back to base.’ So it was night time and we were now in funnels and halfway down in funnels we’d passed over some buildings of the ‘drome which was Market Harborough and all of a sudden the aircraft did an about turn. The engine cut out. One of the engines cut out and of course immediately we turned around and we were now going backwards now, still going down and we landed in a field and we crossed three ditches and the undercarriage stood up to the thumping it got at each ditch that we crossed and we landed up in a cornfield. Now, I now had turned my turret on the beam, opened the turret door at the back of me — two, two doors and opened them and I’m getting my parachute on and the parachute caught on something and it bellowed out and we were still going forward but what happened the parachute went that way. It went starboard to the starboard side, dragged me out the turret and dragged me across this cornfield. Anyroad, I got up and got the parachute and put it all together. The skipper says to me, ‘What have you been doing over there?’ So I said, ‘Well’ I said, ‘We touched down,’ I said, ‘And we were bouncing along and,’ I said, ‘My parachute caught on something, I don’t know what and,’ I said, ‘It bellowed out and I said, ‘I got dragged out the rear turret.’ I was sat right way around for it to happen because I was soaked to the skin with petrol you see and I thought now if we’re going to start catching fire I don’t want to be anywhere near where there’s fire. I’ll be the first one out. Anyroads, I picked up my parachute and I went to where the skipper was stood and they were all congregating there and he says, ‘What happened to you then Mac?’ He said, ‘Well you stink of petrol.’ I said, ‘Yeah,’ I said, ‘They’ll be having me up for pinching aircraft petrol.’ [laughs] He says —
MC: And that was in Wellingtons at —
AM: That was a Wellington. Anyroads they —
Other: That was in England?
AM: Pardon?
Other: That was in England?
MC: Yeah. Market Harborough.
AM: Market Harborough yeah.
MC: Yeah. That would be 14 OTU.
AM: It may be in —
MC: Yeah.
AM: May be marked in there. I don’t know. That was, that was that. And anyroads we were all safe and that was the main thing. Nobody was damaged. Except the farmer came out and started saying to the pilot, which was Hugh Skilling, he says, he used a bit of bad language. He says, and I thought you’d better just watch your tongue because Hughie could, he could use these could Hughie. I thought — you’re going to get the wrong end of Hughie.
MC: What was the outcome of this crewing up?
AM: Pardon?
MC: Crewing up. You never. Where did you crew up?
AM: We crewed, I think, did we crew, I’m just not sure. I can’t remember whether it was Market Harborough or where it was but it maybe tells you on there. I just don’t remember.
MC: Yeah.
AM: But —
MC: But obviously you got together with Hughie and therefore —
AM: But anyway we were flying in from Market Harborough and was swapping between Market Harborough and Husband Bosworth. The two stations. One day we was flying from Market Harborough and another day we was back at Husbands Bosworth and then we were back again and then from Husbands Bosworth we went down to [pause] to Newark.
Other: Winthorpe.
AM: Winthorpe yeah.
MC: The Conversion Unit.
AM: Yeah and it was quite, we nearly killed a WAAF there. What happened there we was coming in to land with a Stirling. We’d been on a cross country and it was daytime and coming in to land we was orbiting the ‘drome and as we orbited the ‘drome it was, ‘Select undercarriage Fred.’ That was Fred Clarke the flight mechanic.
Other: Yeah.
AM: They selected the undercarriage. One wheel went down and one wheel went up. One wheel went up inside the wing, inside the engine nacelle there and the other one went down and what happened was it pushed the dinghy out.
Other: Good lord.
AM: The dinghy inflated and all the gear in it and it went —
Other: Jesus.
AM: In this manner going down, as it went down on to the ’drome. Now, I watched it go down and as I was watching it go down there was a WAAF walking across the ’drome, the grass. And this here, this here dinghy it actually just missed her by a few inches. Not a foot but inches and it must have burst behind her. Well what happened to her after that I don’t know. I don’t know whether she fainted or what happened but anyroads I never did know the outcome of what happened to her but it must have made her jump to say the least.
MC: So you were in Stirlings there?
AM: I was in Stirlings there.
MC: Yeah and then you went into —
AM: And with the Stirling we went up then to Woodbridge. Landed with that —
Other: Oh yes.
AM: And then we had several other. We went on a leaflet raid over Germany with the Stirling and we was with the bomber stream. In front of the bomber stream I would think. It’s in there anyway. And we came back from that raid and what happened. We had another do with a Stirling. We had one or two dos with that thing. Nobody liked them. They used to call them flying coffins, the Stirling. That were the common name they used in the air force by air crew because we was over the Wash one day and we got into a cloud there and we were icing up. And it was summer time. And we was icing up and the skipper says, ‘Get ready to jump.’ So of course I opened my bomb doors not my bomb doors, my turret doors.
Other: Turret.
AM: And I was sat ready for jumping out and I could see water below us. I thought oh I don’t fancy that. But anyway we suddenly came into an area where there was a huge gap in the cloud and the sun was coming through. ‘Don’t jump,’ he says, ‘Don’t anybody jump.’ He says, ‘Stay where you are. Take your, reposition yourself wherever you are,’ and we all got back in to the, well I had just got the doors closed and got back in because the ice was all falling off the aircraft whilst we was in this here big hole in the cloud. So that was one episode and of course you couldn’t, with a Stirling, you were lucky if you could get off the ground with them they were that unreliable. Terrible things. Anyroad, that was it. We had one or two little dos with Stirlings and I have a feeling we went back again with another Stirling for some reason but anyway we didn’t, we went back. We had a full, we were on a Lanc and we had a full bomb load on, a full petrol load and we got to the end of the runway and it’s the first time I’ve heard metal tearing and it’s a name, a sound I’ll never forget. If I ever hear it again I can be in a dark room and I’ll know what it is. But we heard this here tearing sound and we got airborne and we knew what had happened ‘cause the wheel and all the lot were just flopping about. All the undercarriage was just hanging by some, something thin. Whether it was wire or, or some metals, you know, it wasn’t very heavy metal whatever it was and it was hanging down from the undercarriage area. And we were told to circle, orbit the ‘drome until contacted and we did this while the bomber stream was taking off and when they were taking off we were told, ‘Make out for the North Sea, jettison your bombs and then come back.’ So we went out to the North Sea to — there’s an area where we, we dropped bombs and we went out there. And we couldn’t get the bomb doors open because the bomb doors and the undercarriage were on the same hydraulic circuit and the fluid from the, the just a minute what do they call it um it’s a pump, hydraulic pump. Oh it’ll come to me in a minute. I’ll carry on talking and then it’ll maybe come back to me, the name of it. It was just on the starboard side about nine foot inside on the starboard side of the Lanc was this here recuperation cylinder I think they called it.
Other: It went bang when the clack valve worked.
AM: Pardon?
Other: It used to go bang when the clack valve.
AM: Oh I don’t know.
Other: When the pressure was up the top. Yes.
AM: Oh I don’t know about that. But —
Other: Oh dear.
AM: Anyway, to cut a long story short we tried to get this hydraulic cylinder to operate. To empty or to, to function the bomb doors. We couldn’t get them open. And so we tried everything. So the bomb aimer says, ‘Skipper I’ve an idea if you let me do it.’ So he said, ‘What’s that?’ He said, ‘I’ll drop a thousand pounder.’ I think he said a thousand pounder but normally it were five hundred but anyroad whether it was five, I’ll say five hundred to be on the safe side. He says, ‘I’ll drop a five hundred pound bomb on the bomb doors while they’re being operated to open.’ So he dropped the, I’ll say a thousand pounder, dropped it on the bomb doors. No. They didn’t open so he says, ‘Well, what you can do Skipper,’ he says, ‘With that thousand pounder on the, laying on the bomb door it’s got the safety pin in,’ he said, ‘If you do a tight bank and do it a — centrifugal force will force the doors open.’ Didn’t work. So he says, ‘Well can we drop another one at the other end of the bomb bay?’ He said, ‘That’s up at the front,’ He said, ‘If we drop one at the back that’s two bombs in the bomb bay hanging on the doors and if you do banking with them then it should, should work.’ No. It still didn’t work. So, anyroads we tried all sorts of manoeuvres one after the other and we were, it’s in the book there. I don’t know whether it was two or three hours there trying to get the doors, bomb doors open. It’s there somewhere and anyway it wouldn’t work so I, I made a suggestion, I says, ‘Can I butt in Hughie?’ He said, ‘Why? What did you want to say?’ I said, ‘Well we haven’t tried something have we?’ So he said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘We think that the fluid out of the hydro — the —
Other: Accumulator.
AM: Accumulator.
Other: Yeah.
AM: Has — it’s emptied and it’s working trying to open the bomb doors on an empty system’. I said, ‘Might I make a suggestion? Maybe somebody’s not agreeing, going to agree with what I say but I’ll say it.’ I said, ‘If we all use the elsan bucket and Johnny and I,’ that’s the mid-upper gunner and I —
Other: Pee in the hydraulic system [laughs]
AM: If we can pour it in to the recuperation cylinder —
Other: Yeah.
AM: It might work. I said, ‘I know it’s water and it has hydraulic fluid in it but,’ I said, ‘It might work. Can we try it?’ ‘We’ll try anything Mac.’ Because we’d been back to base and we’d had instructions to get rid of the aircraft. Point it out to sea and —
Other: Yeah.
AM: Bale out over land and you’ll be picked up. And we didn’t want to lose G George. Anyroads, what happened was we all used the elsan bucket and we took the elsan bucket to the hydraulic —
Other: Yes.
AM: Unit there. Took the bung off the top, unscrewed it and we gently poured the fluid into it and it filled it. We said, ‘Try the, try the bomb doors.’ Opened. Come open.
Other: You see? Genius.
AM: So anyroad, anyroads that, we got rid of the bombs. Now, we went up to Woodbridge and we left the Lanc there. It was left there with a lot more Lancs and stuff there.
MC: So that story was when, when you was with 50 Squadron?
AM: Yeah.
MC: Yeah prior to that you’d obviously been to Lancaster Finishing School had you?
AM: Yeah, we’d been to Lanc, yeah, we went to Syerston. Syerston. That’s where we went to. I missed that one out. Yeah that’s Syerston. That was on the way from Newark to Leicester. When you leave Newark it’s on, comes out to the Six Hills Road I think they call it.
Other: Yes. I remember it being built.
AM: Yeah. I’d forgotten that.
MC: So your first operations at, on 50 Squadron, what were they like? You know, can you remember your first operation?
AM: Yeah. That’s what when we went to an oil refinery. Homburg. I think that was the name of it. Homburg.
MC: Yeah.
AM: And we went there and it’s the first time I’d ever been up on a raid and I put the turret on the beam and I stood up hanging out of the turret because the sheet was, you know, they took the sheet out in front of you. The side ones were in but not in front of you. Well I could get outside the turret and I leaned out and with the turret being on the beam the wing came up and I could see above the wing now and I could see it. I thought, ‘Are we going to go through that?’ [laughs] I thought we’ll never get through that. Anyroad, we got through without a scratch. I couldn’t believe it but that’s what happened. That was the first one. Homburg. But we did get clobbered eventually and that was in a Lanc and we had a few episodes.
MC: What about Trondheim? You mentioned Trondheim.
AM: Trondheim. Yeah. Trondheim. We were, I should say we were in the first aircraft there and when we got there it was one of those nights where the moon made it like daylight. It was, you could see miles and miles and when we got to Trondheim the Northern Lights were on and we saw the Northern Lights. I heard them talking up front, ‘Come up front and have a look at the Northern Lights,’ and we were approaching Trondheim. And oh, it was lit up lovely. It was a nice sight from up there. I really enjoyed it and I wouldn’t have known but for them to say because I mean I’m sat with my back to where they were looking but anyroads. I put her on the beam and looked out the turret on the port side looking out there and I could see all the coloured colours of the — what do they call it?
Other: Northern Lights.
AM: Northern lights. That’s it.
Other: Yeah.
AM: Now then we’re turning in now to bomb the target. You could see the target easy. We were low as well and we were coming in and all of a sudden we were heading in to bomb and all of a sudden the Germans set off these here smoke —
Other: Yeah.
AM: Smoke flares. And you couldn’t see the target so we had to — we were told to abandon the raid. Return to base. Now, that’s when one of them landed at Skell, at the base where they’d come from, where we’d all come from — Skellingthorpe. And that’s where they made a heavy landing and I heard them talking about this, by that was a rough landing, whoever made that and anyroad we didn’t go back to Skellingthorpe that day we landed at Carnaby. We was getting short of petrol so we had to make a forced landing at Carnaby. And then the next day we’d got topped up and we went on back to base and the same day as we were supposed to be back at Skellingthorpe and we landed at Carnaby that aircraft landed, made a bad landing and when they got to the dispersal, I think it was a 61 Squadron aircraft and what happened was the crew got on board the, on board the aircraft and, the ground crew that is but the air crew went to get their gear put away to the, to the locker room and then they went to the mess. Well whether they were at the mess or the locker room I don’t know where they were when there was a big bang and up went the aircraft with all the ground staff on. They were delayed action bombs you see.
Other: Enough said.
MC: You, you did a couple of trips to Munich.
AM: Yeah I did two trips to Munich. Yeah.
MC: Long trip?
AM: Yeah. They were long trips and the story with that really because what happened was [pause] where are we — I’ve got a picture here somewhere. There were two ladies. When we come to the reunion they were waiting for us, for Ken and I and, where is [pause] oh not there. Oh it must still be in there. Anyway these two ladies, one of them said, ‘I understand you was on Munich raid.’ And I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘What date?’ And I told her. Got the log book and got the date. ‘Oh that’s when my husband was killed. He was on that raid and he got killed.’ Well from there on it made a connection between us and the two ladies [pause] No, no, that’s a Polish squadron that. They invited me to a Polish squadron and that man there is Tom Wislocki. That man there took me there. He —
MC: So the, I mean obviously a couple of times to Munich. No mishaps with those really. Those raids. What about, I mean the other long one you did was Politz.
AM: Yeah. And Gydnia.
MC: Yeah. Gydnia.
AM: They were both in the Baltic.
MC: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
Other: That’s a long step.
AM: Yeah we got some long trips in. But—
MC: You did your first trip to Mittelland Canal.
AM: Mittelland Canal.
MC: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. That was, that was the trip where we came unstuck because the Mittelland Canal — there was only nine aircraft on that raid and we were one of the nine aircraft. We couldn’t believe it. Normally they say, ‘Would the members of 50 Squadron and 61 Squadron report to the briefing room.’
Other: Yeah.
AM: Well this time they didn’t. They says will the following crew, and they gave them the names of the crew. Ours was Skillings crew. Would they report to the ops block. And I thought well that’s nine crew. Now, one of the nine crew took off and this was to the Mittelland Canal with, from Wing Commander Flint he said, ‘If by chance you don’t get the doings don’t come back. I don’t want to see you. You’ve got to sink this barge. It’s most important because you know how,’ this, I’ll quote his actual words as near as I can remember and his actual words to us at briefing the nine crew he says, ‘You know how good the Tiger tank is? We’ve nothing to touch the Tiger tank. Well the Germans have built another one which is far superior to the Tiger tank and they’ll win the war with it if it gets through. You must sink it. If you don’t sink it you’ve got to bust the banks of the canal.’ This is at night time and you know what Jerry would be doing. He’d be waiting for us. Anyroad, we gets there and we goes in and we bombs. So we, we didn’t get, I don’t recall any anti–aircraft fire on that trip but maybe there was. Maybe we weren’t in the right place. I don’t know what the outcome of it was. But the first aircraft to take off he had a malfunction and ran off the runway so that reduced us now to eight aircraft. Enroute to the target we were, it was a dark night. It was a very bad dark night. It was pitch black and all of a sudden the sky was lit up. There was a Lanc on our port beam and he was on fire. Fire was streaming from his port wing. So Fritz had been underneath firing up. So, in the glow of the fire from him I could see another Lanc between him and us so that was three of us in a line. Now, on the starboard side just a few yards behind us and I mean a few yards, maybe thirty or forty yards, there was another Lanc and so anyroads the next thing I knew another flare, the lights had gone out on that one. I don’t know whether he’d got a fire extinguisher and put it out or whether it had gone down I don’t know. And, now then the one that was in between him and us he now was on fire the same as the previous one so that knocks two off the list and one that gone down at, that knocked three off so it left six aircraft to bomb the target. So the next thing I know the mid-upper screams out, ‘Corkscrew. Port. Go.’ And he screamed out and all of a sudden there was a great noise and [laughs] the turret filled with the fumes. He’d fired a rocket at us, this fighter and the fighter did a head on attack at night time in dark and he come just missing the top of the aircraft. It was a wonder he didn’t take the mid upper with him. And he just come above the top of us, filled the aircraft with the fumes from his rocket and also from the fumes from the aircraft coming to the rear turret and I wanted to fire at him but I thought if I fire at him I’ll hit this Lanc that’s following us and I don’t want to shoot one of ours down. I didn’t mind shooting him down but not, not one of ours. Anyroad, I had to let him go. I think that pilot must have been, he must have been a special pilot because it was absolutely pitch black and it was just a row. A lot of noise and a blur. That’s all you could say it was. You couldn’t, you couldn’t identify it because we were both going in different directions. So that was the, we thought it was a Fokke - Wulf 190. It could easily have been but we never did know the outcome of that. And I think we landed at where did we land from that? That was Mitteland Canal, oh coming back from it. I know now. We landed at Juvincourt in France. What happened was we was coming back and part of our route was over Belgium and over Belgium there was anti-aircraft fire taking place and we ran into this anti-aircraft fire and it blew all the starboard side of the nose off from the nose here on the starboard side which way around are we? Let’s get my bearings —
Other: Flight engineers side.
AM: Pardon?
Other: Flight engineers side.
AM: Yeah. Flight engineers side. Yeah. There we are. It was [pause] yeah, that side there. Yeah. Starboard, yeah, there we are. From, from the turret but right back to the wing that whole sheet was off there and that’s where the bomb aimer was laid looking for fighters.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Through the downward looking piece of Perspex and the shell piece — the, this is common talk amongst those that were involved they said it must have been a piece of shrapnel that size and it had ripped off the whole sheet from that side from the top, from the top of the aircraft to the bottom was ripped off and we were told to bale out. Now, what had happened was the shell that had done that had cut my intercom so I didn’t hear the word, ‘Jump. Jump,’ and I’m still looking. We were in a cloud and we were, when I say in a cloud, in the searchlights and we’re going down and down and down and down and got the controls jammed with a piece of shrapnel. I don’t know if you know what the controls are like inside a Lanc but on the port side of the Lanc there’s a square rod about that square and it runs between two rollers down the port side and that comes from the skipper to the ailerons on the, on the tail and that — a wheel there, then the aileron control and then a wheel there. And this shrapnel had gone in there and the more he was pulling it in to get out the dive the tighter it was getting. So he took the, did the, wasn’t quite so obvious I wouldn’t think but he did, tried it, he put the nose into a steeper dive still. The shrapnel fell out and everybody was bailing out but me and, and the skipper of course. Anyway, we got out. He got her out the dive and what happened after that [pause] a bit a long ago now. Trying to remember what happened.
MC: He obviously managed to put the aircraft down.
AM: Yeah. Oh I know. He put a mayday out. That was it. A mayday. And we got called in to Juvincourt. Well, at Juvincourt we landed there and we were told to be careful because the previous day, I think they’d captured it the previous day, an aircraft had landed. It was a German fighter ‘drome this Juvincourt and a Lancaster had landed there. And it were night time so it would be the night before we were there and a man had come up out of the darkness and stabbed one of the crew to death. And so they sent a man out to us in a jeep or some kind of vehicle. I call it a jeep. Maybe it wasn’t a jeep, maybe, whatever it was and he said that the skipper says to him, ‘What are you carrying that sten gun for?’ He said, ‘Well yesterday,’ he said, ‘We had, last night,’ he said, ‘We had a Lanc land and the crew were stood outside the aircraft and a man come up and stabbed one of the crew to death,’ He said, ‘So I’ve brought the sten gun in case he comes up with you lot. If you, if you, when you lot get out your aircraft you need somebody with you with a gun.’ Well the skipper would have a gun anyway in there but he wouldn’t bring it out with him I don’t suppose but anyroad that’s where we were. So I goes to hand my, I goes to hand my parachute in and, ‘Oh where’s my seven and sixpence?’ So I says, ‘I’ll give you seven and sixpence,’ I said. ‘I told you when I fly over Germany I don’t carry money in my pocket,’ I said. ‘If we get shot down I’m not going to give them my bonus for shooting us down.’ So he says, ‘Well where is your money then?’ I says, ‘It’s back at camp.’ So he said, ‘Well, will it be alright?’ I said, ‘I’ve told the men in the billet if anything happens to me, spend it. Go and,’ and I told them where it is so I said, ‘It’ll be quite safe. They’re a good crowd. Which they were. I said, ‘You go and spend it and have a drink or two on me.’ But anyroads we got back to base and there’s a lot more I could tell you but it would take too long. A lot happened. I could nearly write a book on what happened when we got there at Juvincourt. It was a —
MC: Presumably the aircraft was repaired there was it? And you flew it back?
AM: No. No. It was a write off.
MC: Oh right.
Other: Yeah.
AM: It was scrapped straightaway.
MC: Was that G for George?
AM: And apparently — we went back there again in another Lanc taking prisoners back. Our prisoners. And the first time we landed there they were, we got, I got out the aircraft to see what was going on and a chap, he heard heard me talking. He said, ‘You’re from Hull.’ So I said, ‘Yeah I am.’ So he says, ‘Which is your aircraft?’ I said, ‘This one here’. ‘Can I come in your aircraft?’ So I says, ‘Yeah I think so.’ ‘Skipper? Can this here chap here come, come with us to Hull?’ ‘So he said, he’s from Hull, is he?’ So I said, ‘Yeah.’ He says, ‘And you are?’ So I said, ‘Yeah.’ So I says, ‘Could he go in the turret if I put him on safety?’ Well they were on safety anyway. So he says, ‘Yeah. Ok. You don’t mind do you?’ I said, ‘No. Let him come on.’ So I got him fixed up in the rear turret and closed the doors behind him and oh —
Other: Dear me.
AM: When we landed somewhere down the south of the England, I can’t remember where it was but south of England. Oh I was a pal for life. But I never did find out where he lived in Hull. So that was him.
Other: Lovely.
MC: So one of the last ops you did was to Vallo.
AM: Vallo, yeah.
MC: Yeah. You returned early I gather.
AM: Yeah. We, we had a —
MC: Crash landing.
Other: Boomerang.
AM: Yeah, we had. I can’t remember whether it was engine trouble or some mechanical trouble. Well damaged with shrapnel. That shrapnel was pretty accurate with the Germans. It really was. They were, they were good. They had some good equipment.
Other: Yes.
MC: So how many operations did you finish up doing?
AM: Pardon?
MC: How many operations did you finish up doing?
AM: Well I did twenty eight. I had two more to do and if I’d finished the two — I got clobbered on the twenty eighth one and I was laid unconscious on the floor of the turret and I spoke to the skipper when I come to. I thought I’d better get contacting him, he’ll be wondering what’s happening. So he says to me, he says, ‘Mac was you alright with that shell?’ So I had to put two and two together and I found out that a shell had burst while I was looking out the rear turret and it had knocked me down onto the floor of the turret and I was unconscious. I don’t know how long but I was unconscious on the floor and when I come up, you know, got my senses and I stood up in the turret and felt I felt all over around to see if I had any wounds or anything [laughs] and I hadn’t. And anyroads the intercom was still plugged in and I spoke to the skipper and he says, ‘Why was you disconnected?’ ‘Oh’ I said, ‘The plug come out.’ I said, ‘I’ve put it back in the socket.’ The intercom socket. It hadn’t. So, and I could sense that he didn’t believe me. Anyway, when we landed he said, ‘Mac will you come here. I want you.’ So we were in light now so he says, ‘Face me.’ So I faced him. He says, ‘Medical centre.’ So I said, ‘What for?’ He says, ‘You’re going to the medical centre. Your eyes are in a hell of a state.’ So I says, ‘Oh are they?’ He said, ‘Medical centre.’ I said, ‘No. I’ll be alright skip.’ ‘Mac,’ he said, ‘We rely on you.’ He says, ‘Medical centre.’ I says, ‘No. I don’t want to go skipper.’ He says, ‘Look. I don’t like using my rank but what’s that?’ I said, ‘Squadron leader,’ and I knew what was coming. He says ‘Well, I’m telling you medical centre now, while I’m here.’ And he wouldn’t leave me till he’d seen me go in to the medical centre and I was in bed for a fortnight and then I come out of that and by that time they’d done two ops so they’d finished their tour.
Other: Yeah.
AM: So I’d missed two trips. So that’s why I didn’t do the two trips. The last —
Other: Medical centre.
AM: Yeah. Loafing.
MC: So you did some, obviously you mentioned you went back to Juvincourt. That was to repatriate?
AM: Yeah we went, we went there. We did several different things when we finished flying. We went dropping bombs now the dropping the bombs business it’s been suggested that um that American flyer — what did they call him that got lost. They never found out where he was? It was suggested that he’d been they’d looked up his record and he’d been directed to the area. When we’d come back from a raid we had certain areas where we —
Other: Dumping ground.
AM: Dropped our bombs.
Other: Yeah.
AM: And apparently he’d been flying in a fighter. I don’t know what it was, maybe a Mustang, maybe a, whatever, anyway he’d been directed to fly to this area and if he was flying when they were jettisoning the bombs probably the bombs had got him and there was an article in the paper making this suggestion that, he was — was he a dance band leader? Glen Miller.
Other: Ah.
AM: That was it.
Other: Yes. Yes.
AM: And the suggestion being that he’d flown underneath a Lancaster which was getting rid of its —
Other: Dumping.
AM: Surplus bombs because they iced up you see did the bomb racks. Very often they iced up. I could tell you a story about that but I’dlistenin better not. It would take too much time.
MC: What story is that?
AM: Well what happened with that was this — that this Lancaster come back and dropped the bombs and they think it’s hit, hit Glen Miller and put him in to the ditch and that was the end of him and that was that. Now then as regards the what I was —
MC: About the bomb rack freezing up.
AM: Yeah. What happened was we went on a raid somewhere where there was some mountains and I think it was somewhere east of Munich on, I think so — somewhere in that area but anyroad what happened was when we was going to this area, what happened there, let’s get it — oh I know. We went to bomb the target but enroute to the target we went between, I know now, two mountains, one on the starboard side, one on the port side and as we were going through these mountains between the two I looked down and on the side of one of them was what I took to be a listening post. A German listening post. And now we got past them and we went on to the target. I thought oh if skip had given me permission I’d have given them a good squirt but —
Other: Yeah.
AM: He wouldn’t have done. Not to waste ammunition like that. But anyway we gets to the target, we runs over the target, select bombs down, no bombs dropped. So we went around again. Select bombs. No bombs dropped. So we went around again. No bombs dropped. Went around again. No bombs dropped. So now we’re making way home and we’d got rid of some of the five hundred pounders but the cookie was held up. So now a conversation took place now between the pilot and Dougie which I could hear and he says to Dougie, he said, ‘Dougie I know what you’re going to say but I’m telling you we’ve got to get rid of that cookie.’ He said, ‘If we don’t —’ and there was an intermediate conversation going on, he says, ‘If we don’t drop that cookie we’ll not reach the French coast.’ He said, ‘We’ve been around four times, around this target.’
Other: Yeah.
AM: He says, ‘And we’re getting a bit low on petrol.’ He said, ‘We’ll be lucky now if we get to the French coast never mind carrying a four thousand pounder back with us.’ ‘Well you heard what Wing Commander Flint said.’ So he said, ‘Yes, I did hear what Wing Commander Flint said. He said if you can’t get rid of a four thousand pounder I want to know what you’ve done with it. You’ve got to bring it back.’ So Dougie says, ‘Well I’m saying let’s take it back.’ So Hughie says, ‘Dougie I’m sorry.’ He says, ‘We’ll put it to the crew. What do we do? Drop it or do we go on? What are we to do?’ So he come to me, started with me. He says, ‘Mac, what do you think?’ I said, ‘Drop it.’ ‘Mid-upper?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Wireless op?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Navigator?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Flight engineer?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Me?’ That’s the pilot. ‘Drop it.’ So he says, ‘I think you’re outvoted aren’t you Dougie?’ Dougie Cruickshanks they called him. He said, ‘I think you’re outvoted. We’ve got to drop it.’ So he says, ‘Tell, me when you’re ready and you want the bomb doors open and we’ll get rid of that cookie if we can.’ So, we’re going along and Dougie says, ‘Skipper. When we came along here going to the target there’s a listening post here. Can I bomb that? ‘ So he says, ‘Yeah, you can if it gets rid of it.’ So he said, ‘Right.’ So I’m looking out the rear turret to see this here place coming up ‘cause I knew where it was now. I’d seen it going up. So I’m looking for it and it come up and it was lit up. Anyroad, there was such a bang and a crash. The skipper says, ‘Mac,’ he says, ‘Have we been hit? I says, ‘No’ I said, ‘But somebody else has.’ ‘Who?’ I says, ‘Where Dougie dropped the bomb. Where do you think he dropped it?’ So I said, ‘He’s got a bullseye with it.’ So he’d got this here listening post and it wasn’t there now. No lights. Nothing there. So —
Other: Oh dear.
AM: He made a pretty good shot. Mind you it was well up on the mountain side was this here, this here listening post.
Other: Oh dear.
AM: Now then, we gets back but we still had to land. I think we landed at Tangmere somewhere.
Other: Yes.
AM: On the, you’ll see somewhere there where we landed and we had to get petrolled up. When we got back from a raid somewhere. If you know which raid it was we’d come back on you can tell me the name of the target.
MC: When you landed at Tangmere, Mittelland.
AM: Pardon?
MC: Mittelland Canal.
AM: No. That wasn’t the Mittelland Canal. That was another time.
MC: Oh right. It says Tangmere.
AM: The Mittelland Canal was the one, that’s the one where we, where the two aircraft were set on fire at the side of us and where the Jerry come over and fired a rocket at us. That was the Mittelland Canal. North Germany.
MC: So —
AM: We landed somewhere. I think it was at Tangmere or somewhere we landed. Down south of England. Coming back from Munich area somewhere. I don’t think it was on the Munich raid we landed there but it was a raid somewhere up that way.
MC: There was a Munich raid where you landed at Ludford.
AM: Ludford Magna.
Other: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. We landed at several places coming back depending on what sort of a trip we’d had. I mean if you do a lot of corkscrewing and that you’re going to be galloping the petrol down.
MC: I’m sure, yeah. There’s one where you landed at Saffron Underwood.
AM: Grafton Underwood. Yeah.
MC: Grafton Underwood. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. We were fog bound and they had FIDO. We landed there and the Americans, I never let anybody say to me anything bad about them. To my way of thinking the Americans were marvellous and we’ve a lot to thank them for because they treated us like, you’d have thought we were royalty. We landed in the fog on their ‘drome. The food was good and the bloke at the counter says to me, ‘Don’t you like eggs?’ So I said, ‘Yes. Why?’ Well, I said, ‘I’ve got one.’ So he says, ‘You’ve only got one.’ I says, ‘Well can I have two?’ And he said, ‘You can have as many as you want.’ And wherever we landed on an American ‘drome they were absolutely tops. They were a marvellous crowd to me. Wherever we were with the Americans they were good.
MC: So what, so when you finished your tour and you did your, you obviously did Juvincourt, you did some bomb disposal. Where did you go after you’d finished your tour?
AM: Oh we got shifted about. We was at Sturgate. We was at Blyton. We was at Cranwell. And from Cranwell I got — went down to, is it Uxford, Uxbridge the demob centre.
Other: Uxbridge.
AM: Hmmn?
Other: Uxbridge.
AM: Uxbridge yeah. We got debriefed there. Got, not debriefed, got —
MC: Demobbed.
AM: Yeah demobbed from there.
MC: So what did you do after the war then when you —
AM: I went back to me firm that I was with.
MC: Oh you finished your apprenticeship.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: As an electrician.
AM: Yeah. It was a good firm. One of the best firms I worked for.
MC: What are your thoughts about your time in the air force?
AM: What was what?
MC: What are your thoughts about your time? Was it good?
AM: Well I thought it was a good thing for anybody. You see, I’m in a position now, I belong to Jehovah’s Witnesses and they don’t approve of people going into the forces. Not because they’ve anything against the forces but they don’t believe in war. And today I was cross questioned before I come out because one of the ladies from the Jehovah’s Witnesses came to my house and she didn’t realise that I was twigging what she was up to and they don’t want me to come here because they want no connection whatsoever to do with war or people who take part in wars which I did. And so I had to watch my Ps and Qs. So, I didn’t know I was coming here because he didn’t tell me. I didn’t, I knew we was coming somewhere around here but I didn’t know where, what or anything about it and so when I come in here, it was, I thought what are we going in there for? I didn’t know and you’ve opened my eyes to what’s what so —
MC: Well that’s lovely Alan and I thank you very much for being very frank and I’ve enjoyed your talk and it’s been very interesting. Thank you very much.
AM: Well I could have told you a lot more but —
MC: You can do if you wish.
AM: No [laughs].
MC: What else have you got to tell me then?
AM: No, you’ve got, you want to be going home for a meal or something.
MC: Well I do appreciate what you’ve done. Thank you, Alan.
AM: Ok.
MC: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Edward Allan McDonald
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcDonaldEA150713
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Mittelland Canal
France--Juvincourt-et-Damary
Description
An account of the resource
Allan McDonald was born in Hull and worked as an apprentice electrician before joining the Air Force. He passed the exams to become aircrew and trained as an air gunner. During training, his aircraft crash landed and he was soaked in petrol. He flew operations as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe and recalls seeing aircraft exploding in the air, a dinghy deploying by accident and nearly hitting a WAAF, and making an emergency landing at Juvincourt after being attacked by a FW-190 and being hit by anti-aircraft fire.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:15:32 audio recording
14 OTU
50 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crash
decoy site
Fw 190
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Winthorpe
sanitation
shot down
Stirling
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/780/9339/PSwallowP1801.2.jpg
9b31f1ce807ba92eab35e3b4283acca8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/780/9339/ASwallowRP180914.2.mp3
60ab47068015824b41841c1828d1c3a4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Swallow, Peter
R P Swallow
Raymond Peter Swallow
Description
An account of the resource
One item. An oral history interview with Peter Swallow (b.1929), who reminisces wartime years in Sheffield.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Swallow, RP
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: Right. This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Peter Swallow and the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place at Peter’s home in Heighington on Friday the 14th of September 2018. Also in attendance is daughter Suzanne Bellhouse. Ok. Peter, tell me a bit about when and where you were born. a
PS: I was born in Sheffield. It’s a steel city, which is not much now like it was before, you know. Yeah. And I was in the house on my own one day. I had the radio on. We had a proper radio then, and Chamberlain came on and, you know was ever so serious giving his little talk and said, ‘We are now at war with Germany.’
MC: So how old were you there then?
PS: About ten, I think.
MC: Ten. So you were born in ’29.
PS: Yeah.
MC: You were born in 1929. What about your early days before the war? Growing up. What was it like? You know, your childhood and school.
[pause]
PS: I went to Walkley Church School and it was, it was the church was there and there was a hall and, and the sorry and the classrooms. And the headmaster used to come in his car. Not many people had cars.
MC: No.
PS: My dad had one. And you had to modify the lights on your car, you know in case Germans came over and spotted you.
MC: That was during the war. Yeah.
PS: And there was a hood. You got this steel plate with a round hood in it about four or five inches in the middle with slots cut in and moved slightly forward so the light would shine down. Your sidelights, you had to paint the, paint the glass and leave just the size of a penny . So it was a bit dark, and of course at that time all the side streets were lit with gas. Gas lamps. This is taking you back isn’t it? Gas lamps. And that’s how the transport was.
MC: Did you enjoy your schooldays?
PS: Yes. Some of, some of the time. We left the schools and went on to home learning and various people volunteered to let us use their houses so that all the children were spread between housing and not altogether in one. One block.
MC: This would have been during the war.
PS: This was during the war. Yeah. And —
MC: So you remember Chamberlain making the announcement.
PS: It wasn’t Chamberlain. Were it? Yeah.
MC: Chamberlain, did you say? The outbreak of war. Yeah.
PS: Yes. I remember that coming up on the radio. It didn’t seem to make much sense to me you know. It was just, it was a bit like you got it whether you liked or whether you didn’t. And of course he started thinking of what were we going to do for defence and they set up the what they called at the time LDV. Local Defence Volunteers. It changed its name because they used to call them the Look, Duck and Vanish [laughs] And my dad was in a Reserved Occupation because he was a plumber, you know.
MC: I was going to ask what he did.
PS: You had to have that sort of person around. And he volunteered to join the LDV and he finished up as a sergeant armourer. And he did a lot of things he shouldn’t have done. He used to bring guns home and all sorts. You know he had a tommy gun in the kitchen one day which was like the ones that Al Capone had with a flat cylinder, sticky bombs. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of a sticky bomb but they were a glass vial with explosives in and a handle with a detonator to set them off and it was covered in metal for safety. And he, he had to take this glass off and stick it. You were supposed to stick it on a tank. Well, this sticky stuff was real sticky. He brought one of them home one day to show us. And he was posted. One of the things they were told to do was if the Germans come and they were coming up the streets, got to come up the streets put your sheets out between the houses on one side of the road and the other because all the houses were up to, up to the pavement you know and just room for a couple of cars or something like that. And so I seem to have lost my —
MC: That’s ok. No. So, I mean what did you come in to contact with any of the RAF during those days? Those war days.
PS: No. I saw, well we had various salute the soldier and salute the airman and this that and the other exhibitions in the town. There was one by the Army and he’d got this gun, you know. A howitzer and I walked up and had a look at it and opened the breech and then just got the breech in pieces when I got caught. So they were saying, ‘Who are you? Where do you live? What are you doing?’ And oh dear.
MC: Yeah.
PS: But I was inquisitive you know and I give it him back.
MC: And of course your dad had been bringing weapons you knew about them as well.
PS: Oh yeah. Well, anything mechanical I was interested in. And he went on to be a sergeant armourer. In the town itself and the suburbs they put big tanks in on the edge of the pavement or back on the pavement about oh, about that wide.
MC: About three foot wide. A yard wide.
PS: Yeah.
MC: A yard wide.
PS: Yeah. They did those in town anyway and quite a long bit of mesh over the top for water. And they also put iron water pipes down the edges of the pavement, about four inch for places you could stick a hose on. You know, in case of fire. So we had to be careful where we put the feet. But you got used to the darkness.
MC: Yeah.
PS: Yeah. And of course you had blackouts every night. People going around shouting, ‘Put that light out.’ And so you did like. But during the war a couple of mates of, mates of mine who were at the Boy Scouts like I was used to go down to the Sheffield Infirmary which was at the bottom of the hill and we used to go put the blackout up in the wards and that. As a service you know. Which was quite a walk down there and walk back because it’s very hill, Sheffield is very hilly. It’s, there are only two cities in the world with seven hills around. One is Sheffield. The other is Rome. So we were used to hills. I mean everywhere you went it was hilly and the transport of course was tram cars. And come rain, snow you know we would carry on. They had single decker one with a board across underneath at an angle which used to go along and clear the tracks. And then turn it around at the terminus, come back and go somewhere else. You know running backwards and forwards keeping the snow away. It —
MC: So growing up in Sheffield during the war then. What, you were in Sheffield all during the war.
PS: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So did you experience any of the bombing of Sheffield?
PS: Yes. Hitler decided to have a go at Sheffield because Sheffield was a steelworks. Biggest steelworks. So the, originally we just had the odd plane come over and drop a few bombs you know. Which wasn’t a nice thing to hear. You’d hear them whistle. If you heard them go bang you were alright [laughs] If you didn’t you weren’t. And when, when we, when we had the Sheffield blitz that was on, I’m not quite sure what night it was on. Thursday or Friday. They came over with incendiaries. Incendiary bombs mainly. There were some other bombs as well but they dropped what they called bread baskets of incendiaries. They were in a tall canister which flew open and all these bombs came out. They were solid magnesium. You could, as they burned that was it you know. But they put buckets of sand in various places so you could throw them on them. Stop them by cutting off our oxygen supply. When the, during the Blitz —
MC: Just sorry I was going to say did you spend much time in air raid shelters?
PS: Well, air raid shelters. We had, our house was a, was a detached house. There was, had been some stables at one time and then we got the driveway and then three houses to take around the corner. And of course the toilets were there so we hadn’t got much room. We hadn’t got a lot of room for an Anderson shelter. So they decided to, if anything happened we’d go through to the top, go through to the top house which is reinforced. So they, they dug a channel across the driveway and cut in to that cellar, and cut into our cellar, and cut into the next one until you got to the top. And they were about well you got a bit of shoulder room but they weren’t, they weren’t that tall. You had to go through on your hands and knees more or less and get to the first one and then go up the first one to the second one and so on. Which wasn’t very comfortable. But we got two, two Anderson shelter bunk beds in our cellar and my dad took some of the floor up in the front room and our house sloped so he put some bolts and things through the joists and some timbers and filled it with concrete so we could go down there instead of crawling through this lot. Because you could crawl through there and then you got the all clear went. You know.
MC: So you had to crawl through there on your own.
PS: Yeah. So we had somewhere to go on and we had two bunk beds which I had one and my sister had the other. And during the night of the Blitz when the bombs were coming down you could hear them whistle as they came down like and then, then they’d crash. Then you knew you were safe because it had gone off. We had a storm lantern hung on a beam and that swung like this you know with the, with the wind. Our house only suffered two things. One it fetched a big bit of the plaster off my dad’s ceiling in his bedroom and another room. But the ceilings in those days were lats and plaster. You know they put some lats up and then plastered them. So that all had to all be repaired. Then we had something called Essex board up at the windows which we used to put on. Put, turn these turn buttons because you had to do it yourself because it was a blackout every night. And it wasn’t —
MC: So, after the air raids did you used to go and explore the sites of the air raids?
PS: Yeah. I went down with my mother. We walked to town and there were no trams running because some of them had been hit or set on fire. So that was it, you know. The route is off. So we walked down and when we got to town, this I think, this was a morning. The first morning and the second morning after the Blitz and the Moor which was a big shopping centre round the centre of Sheffield that was all bombed. With Marks and Spencer’s and all the big shops all set on fire. And where the wind, windows used to be and some of them were these windows that were put in at the time which were curved so that there wasn’t any reflection. With all, I mean deflects the top down and blew the girders up and along the bottom was this glass that had been burned which had just come down saggy in a lump you know. And if you spit on it it went hisss. And that was right down, right down the Moor which was a shopping centre. So —
MC: Did you not, did you go out with your mates at all? You know. Friends. Collecting bits from the sites.
PS: Yeah. Well, the night after, the morning after the Blitz my sister and I went out with a bucket and got about three parts of it full with shrapnel that we’d picked up in the street in about a quarter of an hour. I mean they were bang bang bang bang above you at the time as the artillery went off. There was, on the opposite hillside an area which they put some rocket guns on. In a square. You know these things that went off. And they could, if they set them off they would be, like a square mile of the sky would be covered, covered with bombs because they set the distance to go off. But I don’t them remember going off. Not far away from where we lived there was our school and the local church and a, what did you call them? They sent these bombs. Came down by, with a, from a parachute which [unclear] and it could swing as it could go anywhere and the parachute itself was green and knitted. Like knitted nylon. Thick and heavy. And one, one went on the main road, not, came down on the main road not far from us and just missed the church and there were lumps of it everywhere you know. The parachute on somebody’s roof.
MC: Did you recover any of these bombs? These incendiary bombs?
PS: I recovered one. Yeah.
MC: Did you?
PS: Yeah. But I mean I left that house to another one and so I lost that. I lost everything I’d got like that.
MC: Did you get anything else? Did you got any?
PS: Well, we got some parts of a, there was an American fort, Flying Fortress came down in the woods and crashed. Well, it’s on the edge of the wood. One of the parks and I think they deliberately tried to avoid the known areas where the kids play and things like that and it just burned down to nothing and trees were burned and there was like a little river that flowed through. It was all muddy. So we would go and have a scrounge through that and I got a couple of bits of metal. Also got something which was a clip. And I later found out it was a parachute harness clip. Fastener. That’s gone. Everything’s gone with changing house you know. And happened that that was it. You know.
MC: So, how come you finished up with a hand grenade?
PS: Oh, my dad used to bring the bloody things home. In fact the chalk white. A couple of years ago I said, ‘What did you do with them hand grenades that you’d got?’ Because I found a box full in, over his garage. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I went to where the convent was like, and chucked them over their wall.’ Because there was a convent which was [pause] on the top of the hill on a slope. Because it was very hilly there. We used to go up a big hill, then a dip and then along and down another dip to get to the end of the main road. And that particular period was was coming up for Christmas and I’d been invited to a party by one of the lads at school. And that was up on the top of the hill. And so that was off. I mean you got plaster in your pudding and things like that.
MC: So the bombing obviously interfered with quite a few of your parties.
PS: Yeah. I mean I didn’t know at the time but the lady I eventually married was going to the same party and she lived further down the hill. Which I didn’t know because they’d moved from there into a brand new council house. And I met her at the Speedway I think. Sheffield Speedway. I don’t know if they’ve still got Sheffield Speedway going on but we used to go down on a Thursday night. But not during the war.
MC: So, I mean obviously the Germans were trying to bomb the steelworks.
PS: Well, that, that came later. I think it was a Thursday or Friday when they blitzed the town. Then they came back on the Sunday to go to the steelworks. And I believe that they were recalled to the base because of thick fog over the bases. So they took them back but they started going down from the, from the top. And all the steelworks went along by the River Don all the way to Doncaster and so they didn’t do as much damage as they could have done.
MC: No. So they didn’t do a lot of damage.
PS: If they’d got that lot there was only one firm there that made crankshafts for Spitfires. If they’d have got that it would have caused a lot of trouble in the war because that was defence. And —
MC: So you used to travel around a lot of the time by the trams.
PS: Yeah.
MC: Did they have any protection, you know?
PS: No. All they had was this mesh on the windows.
MC: Oh, oh yeah. Yes. To stop the glass shattering.
PS: Stop the glass. Yeah. But it caught fire a few of those, it were, some were scrapped. We got some from Edinburgh or somewhere like that I think. I mean all ours was fairly modern some of the stuff they sent us I think they were glad to get rid of it. But at least we’d got transport. It was in the middle town. They’d got this, they’d got this shopping centre. Right in the shopping centre where the road divided in to about four and all the big shops got burned. It looked a horrible mess. And it were like that for a long time after with weeds growing on it and etcetera. But —
MC: What was food like in, in that, during that period? Getting food.
PS: Well, you got rations.
MC: Did you, did you have to go out and get food for your parents?? Did they send you shopping?
PS: I used, I used to go shopping for vegetables because I used to look around what was going. If there was anything special like bananas, you know. Well, I think it’s our turn for the bananas this week, you know. Everything was in short supply. But we managed. The meat. I think you could have the ration was ten, ten pennyworth of meat. So we got, you didn’t get the best cuts because you wouldn’t get as much. Things like that.
MC: Yeah. The story about a turkey.
PS: We didn’t have a turkey.
MC: No. You didn’t have a turkey.
PS: No.
MC: Walking a turkey home.
PS: Oh. That was a friend of my dad’s got one. And he put a cord around its neck and brought it. Walked it down to our house. Knocked and came in and my mother said, ‘What they heck are you doing with that?’ You know.
MC: It’s lucky he didn’t get mugged for the turkey.
PS: Yeah. It was one of those with a big tail, you know. Big cock turkey. A bit further on the road we moved to after that place there was the Co-op. There were local shops at the corners of streets you know. Not like here. You could order your vegetables and go and get them. Somebody would bring them back in the wheelbarrow. But food was in short supply. But you know you had to make do with what you could get. And ice cream. I went to the cinema and had an ice cream and I think they made it out of potato or something like that. Tasted horrible. A block of ice cream, uugh. But we were in the, we went in one afternoon we went to the Palladium at, in Sheffield in our suburb and we were watching a film called, “Heidi.” It was a, you know a continental thing. Swiss or something. And during it, while we were watching this in the afternoon notice came up on the screen, “Air raid warning has just sounded.” If you want, which you may leave the room and come back when it’s, when it’s gone. Well, we sit out there for a while and thought well we’d better go out so we went out. Then we heard the all clear so we came back. And when we came back and sat down the film was still on and Heidi had got a big cauldron and she was making soup or something. And right across the middle of the screen comes the notice, “All clear.” Which was an very appropriate at the time. So —
MC: So what, well amongst your friends obviously you were a teenager growing up. Becoming a teenager during the war. What about antics you got up to as a young lad?
PS: Well, we always, we used to go fishing with fishing nets down at the River Lin which is at the bottom which goes, that river flows through more or less to Derbyshire. And not so far away there was an old quarry which we called the Bald Hills. And it came down in stages with a little, like an ash finish on. Just ashes. We used to go and play football up there. There was also tennis if you wanted it. We didn’t play tennis. Things like that. This party I went to well I was going to go to I later found out that the lady I was to marry was also going to this party. And I had no idea.
MC: So, did you meet her at that? Oh, you didn’t get to the party did you?
PS: No. I met her at the Speedway Club. That kind of thing I used to go on.
MC: Was this after the war or during the war?
PS: Yeah. I got married in 1952.
MC: Ah.
PS: Yeah.
MC: So how old were you when you left school?
PS: Well, I went to the, I took the eleven plus when I was ten. And I was eleven during the [pause] during the holidays. So I just got in and you took an exam to go to school and you had to put down where you would like to go. And in those days there was an intermediate school or a Grammar School. And I put down for about a couple of each. And I was eventually notified that I’d got through to Grammar School. ‘Which one do you want to go to?’ I said, well I mean, the one was the other side of town but there was one in town which used to be in the old days a pupil teacher centre and had been turned into a High School. So, I went there for a couple of years. Then my father said, ‘Well, I don’t know what you’re going to do when you finish school. You know, you’ve got to get a job. You’d be better taking an engineering course,’ because there was there was also ran a technical engineering course which I went on. I had to do another exam for that. They were all about examinations. Passed that and went there, and they hadn’t got as much equipment as they wanted because it was difficult to get the stuff. But they had a stove, the thing to melt steel which they never got around to. They had a workshop and we got, I made a seagrass stool in there. And as well as that, as well as woodwork which they taught us with the lathes they had two engineering rooms. One was machine shops, lathes which were used during the war by ladies making shelves. You used to see them come walking out like they would on a tea trolley only with shelves on. And which, that was one of the places we went to.
MC: Is this the story about — we’ve been told the story about the cook and the frying pan and tracer bullets. Is that —
PS: I’m not with you.
SB: This is from Jackie.
PS: Anyway, the [pause] I went, I went to this school and they had experienced people, not just teachers to come and teach. And we had about eight big lathes all with belt driven from above, you know. And the teacher used to remind you if you’d forgot to take the chuck key out with you before you started it. So [set the lathe up] otherwise you’d go flying across the room. And you go across and get somebody. Thumped on them on the shoulder, ‘Don’t forget to take the chuck key out mate.’ The next room to that was the room where you did pattern making and, no. No. That was that side. There was the we had a hangar workshop where they made various things. I made a spanner centre punch, plug gauge and things like that. And a hacksaw.
MC: And this was all part of your training?
PS: All part of your training. Yeah. They had a forge in there so when you made your spanner.
MC: How old would you be then?
PS: I left school when I was, just before I was sixteen. So you put your hard steel coating on and some stuff called kasenit. Used to put it on it and then put it in the fire. We had exams at the end, you know. And you had, you had to turn a piece of metal of a certain size in various sizes.
MC: Was this in a factory or a training school? A technical school.
PS: That was in school in town.
MC: At a school. A technical school.
PS: It had been a pupil teacher centre.
MC: Oh right.
PS: I mean during the war you’d seen the ladies come out of the main doors pushing a trolley with shelves on that they’d made. You know. For the war effort. So it was well equipped. We had precision grinders. It was a teaching unit you know. Really expert. How to do metal work. Made a hacksaw. And on the other, the other side the pattern making, we made we made patterns with a vice handle for holding the vice. When we took the final exam the teacher came around and looked at the mould I’d made and he ummed and he ahhed and he said, ‘Well, I can’t give you a hundred percent for this because if I do that means nobody can make it any better,’ which they couldn’t anyway. So I got ninety nine.
MC: Very good.
PS: And in the final exams I think I got five, five each teachings, five credits and a pass because we used to do French as well. I went, I’d written to the GPO and asked them if they’d got any vacancies. And I got a reply and had to go for an interview which I did. And about a fortnight after that they said the report you know so I didn’t have much of a summer holiday. I had to go to, to Otley to a training school. And while I was at the training school I got a letter saying that I was top of the school for the handicraft, and there was a, could I have a book. And I didn’t know what sort of book I wanted, you know, I mean. We were from Otley, up in Yorkshire. So I said I’ll have the money which I got five bob which I went to the town hall and bought a driving licence [laughs] Which was useful because you didn’t have to have a test at that time. There were no tests. I mean you couldn’t spare people to training and tests. But by the time they started that I’d been driving for about two years I think with this motorbike I’d got and so I kept that. Until I got my call up.
MC: Ah, call up. Yes. So you did National Service, did you?
PS: National Service. Yeah. It was my birthday in July and I had to go to Pontefract Barracks for training. In December I think. And of course you did all what was —
MC: This was for the army, was it?
PS: Well, it was yeah it was the army but you didn’t know where you were going. It was, when I had the medical and they said, ‘Well, what would you like to go in?’ And I said I’d like to go in the Navy and so I had to go and have the interview with a sailor with all his doings on like and he were asking what I could do and what [pause] how far I could turn steel, you know. What were the distances you could do it in, you know. And I said oh [about a thou, a half thou.] And he said anyway he gave me a written test to do. Which I did that. He read through it. He said, ‘Well, yeah. We can take you on but you’ll have to sign on for three years instead of two.’ So I thought well I can’t do that because I don’t know whether I could get my job back. Because you were guaranteed your job back. So I had to turn that down. They sent me to Catterick where we all passed out. And Catterick was a Royal Signals really. They were all there. Not the Tank Corps like there is now. Nearly everybody was Post Office, telephone. And I did that and then they sent us to Dalton Airfield. An old, an old camp. Ready for, ready for, oh they asked if I wanted to go, they asked they wanted twelve people to go to Germany to learn to be A tradesman. There was A, B and C. And it was a December time, you know. And December time in Catterick is terrible. It’s bloody cold up there. So I volunteered and I was accepted so twelve of us went to this old RAF camp where there was just little tortoise stoves in the, in the huts. And we used to go, go around to the huts, other huts that weren’t in use and pull some timber off. Pulled a line up and tried to warm the place up. Went down to the dance in Thirsk. As we walked down the railway line to get there and they stamped, stamped your wrist when you went with your pass out. Mayor of Pontefract’s something they formed earlier on. And coming back from there there was some lads who were, I think they’d volunteered for the Air Force signals. And we were coming up this, like an alleyway and they were vaulting over these standards you know to stop the vehicles going down. One of them got hung up and down with his flies [laughs] ‘Get me off.’ So we had a bit of fun. Then we went up there and they then took us by train to Empire, Empire Parkstone dock. Down there. Not so far from London. Took us across to the continent in a troop ship. Then we were just poles inside. Your bed would drop down, you know where it was. Most of the lads were playing card games on the way there. And we got to the other side. And went to the toilets and talk about toilets on the dockside. They were just two rows of toilets facing each other. No doors and there was an earthenware trough which we went past them all you know. Some of the lads messing about lit some paper and it floated down you know and singed you.
MC: So where did you finish up in Germany?
PS: Well, I went to [pause] where did I finish up? I finished up at Herford. Eventually. First of all we went to the, an RAF camp which was the RAF regiment at Gütersloh.
MC: Oh, Gütersloh. Yeah.
PS: They weren’t as smart as us, you know. They didn’t, they had their caps to here. With us if you haven’t got your cap on that was it. But we went into Bielefeld one day and I heard this rattling. I turned around and had a look and there was a lady coming down the street. It were all cobbles, you know. Anyroad, at this time and she’d no tyres in this bicycle but she’d got coiled springs one in the front and one In the back which was you know going up and down as she rode. Rattled down the street in this push bike. So you can tell what a state they were in. We were paid in what they called BAFSV. British Armed Forces Service Vouchers. You weren’t, you didn’t get any German currency unless you withdrew it especially and you put it in your paybook. We got some though because we went to the barber’s one day. Three of us and sat down at a barber’s and there they had like a double wooden thing just like a couple of big rulers which clipped on the edge of the paper, you know, looking through this. A chap got up and went and sat in the, in the chair. The barber got his tackle and put the whole of his head, froth all over his head to give him a shave like. Then he gets the cut throat razor out I thought oh crikey. And he shaved the top of his, he hadn’t got much on and shaved the top of his head. And then we paid him in cigarettes. And we worked it out that five of us could have a haircut for one cigarette. Gave us all, you know. They’d got nothing.
MC: So did you see much of the results of the bombing in Germany when you were there?
PS: Yes. The buildings had been knocked down. They were starting to put them back up again. Well piled up, piled all the stuff up and they were starting to rebuild. And that’s when I understood more the term Jerry built. Because they just slapped some cement on a brick and pointed them all up afterwards. They didn’t point them it at the same time. And oh, on the way out at first we went by train. We went past a viaduct. What do you call that? I can’t remember just at the moment.
MC: Was it one we bombed?
PS: Hmmn?
MC: Was it one we bombed?
PS: Yes. That was the one the hit with the biggest bomb.
MC: Bielefeld.
PS: Bielefeld. Yes. That’s it. Bielefeld Viaduct. I got, took a photograph of that from long distance.
MC: So you did a bit of travelling around while you were there.
PS: Yeah. I got as far as the checkpoint at Berlin. Because we had a radio station working, an ordinary radio station and they wanted some supplies so we took them out. But we could only go so far. We went to the American checkpoint. A half a mile further on was a British checkpoint. They were half a mile back. The yanks. We took some stuff out because we had a radio set working to, to Berlin. The radio sets we used they couldn’t, they couldn’t use them for that because when I, when I finished my course, training course in Germany. This, the course in about five months before you passed out and they were teaching you to be either a line mechanic which was a [unclear] equipment and radio mechanics and there were three, there were three things. Line, radio and telegraph. So, so they give us this section of it. The airfield. There were WAAFs on the airfield. Surrounded by barbed wire. And we had, we had to spruce up our training. Of course we had to march to through the town with your rifles and everything. I think it was just say it’s a warning like. So they had us out every day in the cold. Going through various moves because they told us how to move your rifle from one shoulder to the other. I know when you’re trailing arms by your side they’re heavy them rifles and I, you changed it from one to the other, and went through the town. We led the Air Force because we were senior to them and it was, it was quite a decent barracks. It had got double glazing. They had double glazing when we go there. We took them down when we got there. They took them down. Because it got warm took the outside panels down because we had to clean the glass. So we did that. And every morning we had to go for a two mile run. You know shorts and [unclear] running around the camp.
MC: So eventually I believe you got to Möhne Dam as well.
PS: Yeah. There was a leave centre at the Möhne Dam and we got, we had the driver to, we had the driver for the trip. And he drove whatever he was supposed to drive and he got us permission to go to Möhne Dam which was, which was rebuilt.
MC: O. It was rebuilt was it?
PS: Oh they didn’t take long to get that put back.
MC: You walked around it did you?
PS: No. We went around, we went around on a push bike. We’d been posted the night before so we got our pushbikes and we went all the way around it.
MC: Where did you get your bikes from?
PS: From the leave centre.
MC: Oh, right. They did have them did they?
PS: They had them on there to use. I’ve a photograph somewhere of when we’re on the wall which had been replaced. A young couple on a boat. Little [pause] two feet I think.
MC: Rowing boat type thing.
PS: In front of the first one was a wind up gramophone playing records as we went down the Möhne Dam. But we went down there a couple of times.
MC: You got down to the Black Forest.
PS: Yeah. We went to [pause] I can’t remember what they called it now. Another leave centre we went to and you were just there couple of nights. But, and I fell asleep in the truck coming back. When I woke up everything was in darkness and I was laid on the floor on the back of this two ton bloody truck. So I had to get to, get to my barrack room without this sentry seeing me because we had a sentry at the gate and we had a prowler. The other one used to prowl around. And they said, ‘Who goes there?’ ‘It’s only me.’ You know. I just walked up to him. But we, you had a to do a guard every so often. Two on and four off.
MC: So in the Black Forest tell me about the, you were collecting stuff to put under the COs bed somebody tells me.
PS: Oh, that wasn’t, yeah but what we finished up with, you know when they trained us on the radio stuff they put us in a troop. And it was [pause] it was radio telephones. They call them a ten set and we had these mirrors, you know. These big mirrors where we used to pipe the, pipe the mesh out of whatever you’re doing from the inside of this trailer and they got ten, ten pulses so you can have running across all the time so you can have ten connections running. And we went out into no man’s land. I mean you had to get high enough up to get as far, as far as you could. I mean there were two about that big. And we went to one and as we were building this. There was a, as we were building this there was a hill that we went on called [unclear]. Which was a monument at the top of the hill which was some Germans lived in. A German family. And we, we come in, we got that room in there, put the generator in the garage place at the side because you get about you could light two lights and that was all the supply of electric. So we cut a hole in in the window frame, push a cable through and we had a petrol driven generator. Well, the old lady came up. All the snow in winter was going to come through that bloody hole. And one day one of the lads decided to repair one of his boots and he stuck it on the end of the bedpost and he’s hammering away, you know putting some studs in. And she came up ohhh well the plaster was going down in her old boy’s dinner. But we got through and put it in. But she said, I mean there were five of us living there and she’d do a, do a hotpot for us. You know. For the five. And apparently the Russians had been there before us and they could have one of these each. Like gannets. And one day she said she heard the banging upstairs and went up to have a look. One of these Russians was knocking a hole in the wall. She asked them what he was doing. He wanted water. Because he’d seen her turn the tap on downstairs he thought he could get water out of the wall and he was chopping a hole in the wall. This was the mentality of the Russians. I mean they hadn’t seen things like that.
MC: So where does the COs bed come into this?
PS: Oh, that was in the [pause] well while we were there the only transport we’d got was a fifteen hundred weight shell which you went up so far and then you went in a shell and up around it and away. In this shell hole, at the side of the shell was a small tank with shells around it. You know. Inside. And a shell hole full of rifles. Thrown the rifles in. Taken, taken the works out. And we was up and down in the truck. And we, I mean the toilet was already there when I got there because there had been some people before us and they’d got a wooden fish, wooden [pause] I don’t know what you call it. Case off some, off a sixty foot steel tower we’d got with the [unclear] guys on you know who you wouldn’t expect. And we used to, we made an oven out of a piece of tank. A flat piece of tank. And we got some cement from the Germans in a swap sort of thing, cut out a trough and we had a big burner like it was a blow lamp with about four inches diameter plate. Put that at one end and a piece of plate on the other end. We could cook on that. And we put some covers around it and a roof on it and we were nice and warm in there during the day. During the night of course while you were laying in bed your breath was freezing on the canvas so you had a nice white circle when you woke up. And we used to have to break, break the ice in this water bale, water container either before we went to bed or in the morning so we could have a cup of tea. The only place we could water from was the local village pub. No. The local village. It was a farmer’s, I think. We had a water carrier we dragged down there and filled it but it was always icy. You could always throw some petrol under it and set fire to it. But one of the lads, the driver actually he was a bit of a lad. We brought some of this ammunition, German ammunition into the tent which was forbidden you know and filled the German helmet and put it under the corporal’s bed. He didn’t know it were there until he would have gone crackers.
MC: So what was in it you put under the bed?
PS: Hmmn?
MC: What was in it you put under the bed?
PS: Sten gun.
MC: Oh.
PS: They were all, we were all armed. Some had got rifles and that and I had a sten gun and I just hung it underneath. I got a few rounds, you know. I think somebody let a few rounds off before that. But we used to put a canister on a on a branch with oil in and set fire to it have a nice flame on it. Shoot it down with a 303. I mean there were only five of us. You couldn’t put a guard up when you’ve only five people. I mean they’d never been off. You’d never have got an ounce of sleep. So we used to shove a rifle through the flap of the tent and let a couple of rounds off at night.
MC: So, what is the story about the chef and the frying pan catching bullets?
SB: On top of the tower.
MC: On top of the tower.
SB: Radio tower.
MC: You tell the story about —
SB: Firing rounds on the chef.
PS: We had a piece of tubing. Steel tubing which was blocked at one end and you know we’d got stacks of bullets from this corner where the tank got knocked out and the belts of ammunition. He took some up. He used to go up the tower. We had a sixty foot tower. Took the ladder vertical and then around and up again to the top to set it up. He used to sit up there and somebody would put, get the steel tube we’d got, get it hot and put a round in and, you know it would fire. Put them in backwards way around so that the bullet cases were going up to him and he were trying to catch him on top of a sixty foot tower. The other bloke wouldn’t go up it. ‘No. I’m not going up there, he says.’ When you got up there was railings about ten inches and steel rods across. You know, sixty foot up. And when we went to that place [unclear] where the Germans lived we had to put, haul this thing up to the railings that they got that went around the tower. It was called [unclear] and we had to haul this up there and site it which was difficult because you know you’d get your compass sideways and go across the front of the ditches. That was, that was nothing at either side. So we had to try and do it from down below. You know. Bob your head up and down but we got it through.
MC: So how long were you in Germany then?
PS: Well, from leaving.
MC: For all your National Service you were in Germany.
PS: All of it. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PS: I went to [pause] Lüneburg was it? Yeah. On the north coast. I got ten days just before I came out. I got ten days leave. Local leave. And I’d been knocking about with a girl whose father had been posted to Germany. So they said, ‘Come up,’ like. So I applied for my holiday and I had my holiday when there was a big scheme on. All the British Army had arrived and was in it apart from me. I were waiting at the camp gates for control commission bus because there weren’t any German buses out that way. And this big staff car pulls up and a lady driving. This bloke with all this stuff on you know. All this gold. He said, ‘Where are you going soldier?’ I said, ‘Oh,’ I’m going to Bad Oeynhausen sir to catch a train.’ ‘Jump in,’ he said. He took me all the way to Bad Oeynhausen. Everybody else was at war, you know [laughs] playing soldiers. So we got there and got on the train, sat down and had lunch on the train and got a bottle of beer, you know. All on the house. I stopped there all week with this girl who lived not so far from [unclear] And when the week was over I got this train ticket to go back, catch it about 7 o’clock in the morning. I’m not going to get down to the station at 7 o’clock in the morning. So I found there was a later train. He took me down to the station and I got in a carriage. Only me in it. Took my belt off, you know and my jacket and my hat. Sat there next to the window. The door opens and the conductor comes. Apologises and shuts it. So I went all the way from Lubeck to Herford free of charge as they say. Went on another free of charge thing —
MC: So, tell me, as a British soldier in Germany how were you treated by the Germans? And how did you find them?
PS: Alright actually. Because at Christmas we went down to this local pub where we was getting water. A little village. We were down there one day and this girl came across like and we were social and we went down there. We down on New Year’s Eve. We went before that it were one of their birthdays the next weekend. ‘Can you come to our birthday?’ So I said, ‘Yeah. We can come to your birthday.’ And they’d got all sorts of pies that they’d made. You know. Cherry pies. And dancing with them you know. They thought it were great. So we went [pause] No. We went again at New Year. And I mean they were giving you a glass of schnapps, you know. We weren’t fit to get back to the camp. We had to ring somebody up to bring, bring the truck down to fetch us. But everybody were alright.
MC: So you got treated fairly well.
PS: Yeah. I mean the girls were very friendly. Very friendly.
MC: He says with a smile on his face.
PS: Yeah. What was I going to say?
MC: So, so that was your time in Germany. Thinking back a little bit I never asked you at the beginning about any brothers and sisters.
PS: Yeah I’ve got, I had a brother and one sister didn’t I? One brother. One sister. He was about ten years younger than me so I didn’t see much of him.
MC: And your sister? She, she was of a similar age to you?
PS: Yeah. She was about fifteen months older than me. She’s still alive. She’s in a care home at [pause]
SB: Blackpool.
PS: Near Blackpool anyway.
MC: Yeah.
PS: She can’t see anything.
MC: So did you spend a lot of time with her as a child at home?
PS: Not particularly. I used to be out with the lads you know playing football and —
MC: I’m working up to a story of snails and putting salt on them.
PS: Oh, that was when we were about so high. When she, when she walked up the garden path. The garden paths then were just slabs of stone and slabs at either side and two, three four houses in each block.
MC: Yeah.
PS: And a gate in the middle. Well, a door. A big heavy door that closed. My uncle had written on the back, “This door shuts. Try it.” Chokes it. My sister went around collecting snails, you know. To come out of the garden at the side. And I were only little. I didn’t know about it at the time but she was putting salt on them I started eating the bloody things ‘til they stopped me. So I have seen a bit of life.
MC: Certainly have. Certainly have. Yeah. So, coming back.
PS: Oh, and I —
MC: Sorry.
PS: Went to hospital once in Germany. I was fed up of going on parade so I thought I’d have a bit of time off. I had a couple of cysts behind my ear so I went and reported them to the medics. They said, ‘Oh, we’ll take them off. But we’ll get a truck to take you to RAF Rinteln they called it. Be down at the gates, barrack gates by 10 o’clock and we’ll run you up there. Or 9 o’clock or something like that. Anyway, I went down and this thing never turned up. So I went to guard room and told them. ‘Oh, they’ve forgotten.’ So they got this jeep and went up the autobahn like a bloody rocket. We were going up the autobahn and a bloke pulls alongside, he said, ‘Your back wheels are doing, going like this.’ We said, ‘We know.’ You know. I mean the speedometer wouldn’t go any faster. Open topped jeep. But I got about three or four days off of parades. We were on parade once we were doing, they decided that they were going to do a march through the town, you know. Just letting them know that we were here and we did our training. Even the RAF did the training. Had the caps on and that. We couldn’t go anywhere without a cap on you know. Had to have it on all the time. They taught us how to change, change arms. We’d got a trail from that and that. I recently went to the bomber places and, you know the one that don’t fly and one of my grandsons, my great grandson looking at these things, ‘Oh look. 303 rifle there,’ like. I’ll show you. I couldn’t pick the bloody thing up now. I used to chuck it about before. I was I was a captain of the shooting team for a while. Some of the officers were bloody terrible with a bren gun. So I was nominated.
MC: So you had your marksman’s badge.
PS: Yeah. Well, I didn’t get the badge but I had the satisfaction to know that I was the captain.
MC: So you came home from Germany. And then when did you meet your wife? You said you knew her before you went to Germany.
PS: No. I didn’t marry that one. I came home. I met this lady at the Speedway Club. Speedway Supporter’s Club. In fact, I think there were two or three were looking to see if they could get my attention. I used to play the records for dancing and got talking to this girl and I’d be going down on my motorbike so I took her home on my motorbike. Well, not quite home. ‘I’ll get off before we get there because I don’t want my dad see me on this.’ [laughs] And that blossomed and we got married.
MC: So you had quite a following.
PS: Oh yeah.
MC: Of ladies.
PS: I was popular with the ladies. But I mean when we went [pause] oh it’s, as well to be going to the Möhne Dam we went to another place and where they got dancing and everything. And of course we were dancing with them and kissing them and all that. And saw them again the next afternoon. We didn’t see them again after that. It’s all right for you laughing. We didn’t [unclear] it was in the Black Forest.
MC: Yeah.
PS: Yeah. It was, it was nice there.
MC: And these were German girls.
PS: Yeah. Oh yeah. Fish a bit of paper out and write their name and address on and trusted you to do yours. Expecting you to. I mean there was a shortage of men. We killed that many. So they, if they could get a bloke fair enough but, yeah. They were friendly.
MC: So when you came back from Germany you went back in to your old job.
PS: Yeah. Yeah. Went back. Well. I’d finished my two year training course before I went. They put me in electric light and power. So I did about six months on that installing and maintaining the, maintaining all the batteries and that for the, for the [trunk call lists] and keeping the batteries full up, full up with evaporated and each cell two volts would be about from there to other side of them plants. About that wide and about that deep. Two volts. Very high capacity and they’d got wooden boxes lead lined.
MC: So you’re talking about what? About two metres wide.
PS: Yeah.
MC: Two yards wide by about a foot deep. A yard deep.
PS: Oh, they were deep. I mean the contractors used to put them in and when they put them in they put a glass tubes between them as insulators and put them in plate by plate and then melted the lead frame on to the [unclear] I mean the water was so good that we could use it in batteries. You can’t here because there’s too much lime in it but in Sheffield you could use it for.
MC: [unclear]
PS: Yeah. Fill it up by hosepipe. We used to [pause] on maintenance we maintained stamp set milling machines that they had in the walls. Stamp cancelling machines. They put them through, the letters through and conveyers, lifts. Everything electrical we did. And we put at Rotherham we put new lighting in because it was a downstairs sorting office with ordinary, ordinary lights. We put the first lot of fluorescents in there when they got [unclear]. Right along these bays where you could see where you were going. When we switched them on it was just as we were taking the roof off.
MC: Yeah. That’s great, Peter. I just, I just want to talk about a couple of other things. You went through, you went through the war and obviously you experienced the, what the RAF were doing. What did you think of the job that Bomber Command did? Were you much, did you give much thought to that?
PS: I didn’t see much of them until nearly the end. I’m not quite sure whether it’s nearly the end of the war but I mean the planes were coming over. [unclear] planes it was that would come, and the sirens used to go off.
MC: Did you get much news of what they were during the war?
PS: No. Not a lot.
MC: I mean post-war you knew what they were doing. Or what they’d been doing.
PS: We were. I don’t know quite sure what, sure when it was we went to Bridlington. Stopped there and there were three airfields near there I think. One had got this FIDO with the paraffin in the pipes around to disperse the fog. One evening we saw, saw these flames going across. I’m not quite sure when it was. It might have been near the end of the war. But I don’t know whether it had finished then.
MC: Do you think Bomber Command did a good job?
PS: Oh, they did. I mean I went to Hamburg.
MC: Oh yeah.
PS: By train, you know on the way to Lubeck to see this young lady because her dad was a sergeant you see and that was on the, on the, on our border with the Germans.
MC: Yeah.
PS: And at Lubeck it’s like a port. And went via Hamburg. Coming back, oh I went and caught the train. I went and sat down. A chap came and asked us what we wanted for lunch, you know. There was a butler there. This was all on the, all on the forces. So fair enough. When it came time to come back the train was about half past seven in the morning. I thought well I’m not travelling at half past seven in the morning. So her dad took me down to the station later on from their home. And I got on the train. It wasn’t a troop train. It was just an ordinary German train. Got in this carriage. There was only me in. Took my jacket undid my jacket took my belt off and relaxed like. All of a sudden the carriage door opens and there was this German porter there you know and he apologised and shut the door.
MC: So you say you went to Hamburg. You saw Hamburg.
PS: Then I, that was I hadn’t got a ticket. So we saw what was left of Hamburg at the time. The other side of the train I was you just looked and it was all a mess. I’ll give the Germans their due a lot of, a lot of nearly everything well everything I saw that had been wrecked was put back exactly as it was. I mean Cologne Cathedral was bombed. That was brought back. I went to another one and —
[phone ringtone]
MC: Sorry, I thought I’d put that on silent.
PS: That wasn’t me. Where else did I go to?
MC: Yeah. You were talking about Hamburg and the bombings and the ruins and the Germans and how they repaired everything. You know.
PS: Yeah. Apparently, there was one town we went to afterwards you know as civilians. We were told that they said to the Yanks they would surrender this town if they didn’t bomb it. Because, before the Yanks went in anyway they just blasted away. That was it. We did a, we went in a train holiday through Germany and [pause] just a minute. Oh, I went to Nuremberg.
MC: Oh, you certainly got around in Germany.
PS: Yeah. This was after the war. After the war.
MC: Oh right, ok.
PS: Went to Nuremberg and Nuremberg didn’t exist after the British had bombed it. The city. The old walled city. But when we got there there was only one. Everything was put back as it was. A chap had made a model of it but they knew what was what. And I’ll give them their due the Germans everything they put back after the war unless you’d a place like Hamburg which was nothing left they built it back to what it was originally. I mean the church was you know high at one end and next to nothing at the other. You couldn’t tell it had been rebuilt. There was a lot of lovely architecture. We destroyed it and they put it back up. Not here. We get all these so called architects put up all sorts of rubbish don’t they? It’s a clean city. I went on an overhead tram. It’s the only place there is one. These girls who were, we had a couple of girls used to come up to the camp. They were the ones that we would dance with in the village. They took us down there and they’d got an overhead railway which hung and it went along over the river. It’s still there.
MC: Oh.
PS: Which was an experience. We didn’t pay. You just got on. They don’t queue either. The Germans don’t queue for anything. I mean you go to a bus stop and its who gets on can get on while somebody else is trying to get off. In fact, we went on holiday in [pause] was it Croatia, I think? And there were some Germans there and they called you into the restaurant and these Germans came and you know and the Yugoslavs said, ‘Out. Wait your turn. I’ll tell you where you’re going to sit. You’ve been allocated a seat.’ And they all went out but they were bloody gluttons. They had a lot of muscles. It was like that.
[recording paused]
MC: Pushbike. Going down the street on a pushbike.
PS: Yeah. Well, it was a lady actually. I heard this rattle. This was in the first place we went to and I turned around and looked and there was this lady coming down the street on her pushbike. No tyres. And she’d got coil springs. One in the back and one in the front and of course it’s bellying out as you, as you, centrifugal force but it rattled. That’s all they had. No tyres. No nothing.
MC: Nothing. No.
PS: I mean, coffee. Coffee was a good currency. Cigarettes was a good currency. Five haircuts for a [unclear]. The girls were very friendly as well. You know. They’d give you their name and address. I think they were short of blokes. They’d had so many killed.
MC: Yeah. You said that. Yeah.
PS: There was a lake up there.
MC: Finish off. We’ll just finish off, Peter. And the other thing I did, I was going to mention I believe you’ve got a bit of a musical talent as well.
PS: Well, I had.
MC: You had. Did you play? Did you enjoy music when you was a child or was that later life?
PS: No. They tried to get me to, to teach me piano but I never got around to it. I was a bugler in the Scouts.
MC: Oh, that would. Yeah. Anyway, thank you for your time, Peter.
PS: You’ll find something.
MC: That was very good. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Swallow
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASwallowRP180914, PSwallowRP1801
Format
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01:27:59 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Sheffield
Germany
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1952
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Swallow was born in Sheffield in 1929, one of three children. He recalls hearing Mr Chamberlain’s declaration of war broadcast as a schoolchild. His father, a plumber, volunteered as a member of the Local Defence Volunteers, eventually becoming a sergeant armourer. Peter remembers his father bringing home a Thompson sub-machine gun, a sticky bomb and grenades. War-time life in Sheffield is described including blackout arrangements, details of car lighting, firefighting water tanks and pipes, and rationing. Peter started at a grammar school after passing his 11+ exams, but then moved on to an engineering course. It was well equipped, and the lathes were used to manufacture shells by women workers. When not at school or being taught at home, Peter went fishing, playing football or as a Boy Scout, helping put up the blackout covers in the hospital. His father constructed an air raid shelter in the cellar of their house to protect them from the bombing, and Peter describes the aftermath of air attacks with details of fires and destroyed buildings in the city centre. He went out with a bucket and collected spent shrapnel and incendiaries after the attacks. After passing his engineering exams he got a job with the General Post Office. After the war he received his National Service call-up and served his two years in Germany with Royal Signals. He relates the camp he was based in, what they got up to in leisure time and his various travels around post-war Germany. On demobilisation he returned to his job with the GPO and married in 1952.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
bombing
Chamberlain, Neville (1869-1940)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
firefighting
home front
Home Guard
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/718/10113/ABoocockR170406.1.mp3
5648acd3c120cc0d941adb8b4752e30e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Boocock, Robert
R Boocock
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bob Boocock. He trained as a wireless operator and was posted to the Far East with 242 Squadron. He became a prisoner of war at Changi and in Japan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Boocock, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre on Thursday, the 6th of April 2017. The interviewer, interviewee is Robert Boocock, the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is being carried out at the home of Mrs Flora Winter at Brant Broughton. Mrs Winter is also in attendance at the interview. Ok, Bob, thanks for agreeing for this interview. What I’d like to do is just explain a bit about where you were born, when and where you were born. When were you born?
RB: 7th of January 1919, isn’t it?
MC: Alright, and whereabouts was that? Where were you born?
RB: [unclear], oh, and where was I born? Newcastle upon Tyne
MC: And you went to school there?
RB: No, my father got a job down in the city of York
MC: And what did your father do?
RB: He operated machines, we had an aeroplane factory in the centre of York, would you believe? Going back a long time and my father worked there and he was a tool maker and that was a small place, a small factory
MC: But that’s where you went to school
RB: But it’s gone now
MC: Yeah, yeah, yeah
RB: It no longer exists.
MC: You went to school in York then, did you?
RB: Yes, I did.
MC: Yeah. You enjoyed your school days? Did you enjoy your school days?
RB: Well, it’s a long time ago. [laughs]
MC: And what, when did you leave school? At what age were you when you left school?
RB: Where?
MC: What age did you leave school?
RB: I left school at, my, it was called the Knavesmire higher grade school when I left that when I was fifteen and I did another year at the York school of commerce which was in, do you know York at all?
MC: No.
RB: Which was in Clifford Street. And I went there for a year and when I was fifteen, I got a job.
MC: And what was that? Doing what?
RB: Well, I’m trying to remember, the first job I had was a part-time one and I was still at school and did you know that I delivered lady’s hats?
FW: Yes, I did, I did [laughs]. [unclear]
RB: And I had a bicycle with a pannier rack and the bag of things were in the front and I got to know York very well, I mean, I’ve forgotten a lot of it now and it’s grown.
MC: So when, at what stage, what, how did you come to join the Air Force? What step, what age?
RB: I was conscripted.
MC: You were conscripted, yes.
RB: And I joined in February, war started in September
MC: ’39, yeah.
RB: And I joined the Air Force, I put my name down for the Air Force and I was called up by the RAF in the following February, that’ll be 1940
MC: So, you’d been in your early twenties then, were you?
RB: Been what?
MC: How old would you be? Nineteen?
RB: Be about sixteen, I suppose.
MC: No
FW: Getting a bit lost here, I think. 1940 you would’ve been twenty-one.
MC: Thank you Flora. Yeah, that’s fine. Yes, so and where did you first when you joined the Air Force, what was your first posting or training, basic training?
RB: Do you have the sheet of paper with all details, Flora?
US: I don’t know, I’m not sure what you’re, I knew you got it somewhere.
RB: I think I have.
MC: You were on the training for a long time?
RB: I went down to London and I went to the Central Telegraph Office which was near St Paul’s and learned the Morse code [laughs]
MC: So, did you get a choice of being, becoming a wireless operator? Did you get a choice of becoming a wireless operator, did they give, or just tell you that you were going to be a wireless operator?
RB: Just a wireless operator, I volunteered for flying duties but there was a great shortage of training facilities in the early days of the war and I was posted to 242 Squadron and Douglas Bader was a previous commandant, I mean, I never met him, he was already a prisoner of war in France, I think, when I joined up
MC: So when you, that was after you’d finished your wireless operator training, was it? You finished your wireless operator training and then you went to 242 Squadron.
RB: I, I can’t
MC: Yeah, where was 242 Squadron? Can you remember whereabouts it was?
RB: I possibly got it upstairs, I’ll just go upstairs and
MC: I’m interested to know where your first posting was when you went to 242 Squadron.
FW: Weren’t you not in London then?
MC: You were in London when you did your training, you say.
RB: Yes, I went to the Central Telegraph Office to learn the Morse code and we had to march down Holborn, I think it was. I was just there for about three months, that will be 19
FW: ’41 I think
RB: 19
FW: ‘40, 1940
RB ’42, maybe
MC: And then, then of course you were posted to 242 Squadron you say.
RB: Yes
US: Did you [unclear] that you were in the Blitz
MC: Alright, yeah, and was that in this country? 242 Squadron? Were they here? In the UK?
RB: I can’t remember where I joined it.
FW: Were you still with 242 Squadron when you went abroad?
RB: Yes, I think so.
FW: Right.
RB: The famous commander of 242 Squadron was
FW: Douglas Bader
RB: Famous flier, and he was a prisoner of war already in France, who would that be?
FW: Douglas Bader
MC: Douglas Bader, yeah, you said Douglas Bader
RB: Douglas Bader
MC: Yeah, you said that
RB: I never knew him of course
MC: No, no
RB: He was already a prisoner of war when I was called up
MC: Yeah, yeah. So, what aircraft did you fly in with 242 Squadron?
RB: Hurricanes
MC: Oh, you flew a Hurricane?
RB: Yes, I mean, I wasn’t flying it,
MC: Alright
RB: I wasn’t a pilot
MC: Oh, you, sorry, you were working on the radio, wireless equipment
RB: Yes, don’t quite know what I was doing, it’s a long time ago
FW: Waiting for a flying boat
MC: So, did you ever fly aircrew? Did you ever fly aircrew?
RB: No, I didn’t
MC: No, you say you were wireless operator
RB: I, as a wireless operator, which was in the bombers and I was sent down to the training school of the post office to learn more scole and I still do it [laughs]
MC: Brilliant, yeah [laughs]. So, when did you get posted overseas then?
FW: First trip in 1941, I think, late 1941, because you were in Java in 1942, weren’t you?
MC: What job were you doing in Java, Bob?
RB: In Java?
MC: Yes
RB: Mainly running away.
MC: [laughs] so how did you get there, did you go by boat? Did you fly?
RB: Yes
MC: You went by boat, did you?
RB: We went by boat and we arrived at Batavia as it was then called, now called Jakarta
MC: Alright, yeah
RB: In the island of Java and I was in Batavia first of all and then [unclear] was a long time
MC: So, how long was the boat trip? How long did it take you to get out there?
RB: Well, we were bound, when we left, we left Gourock in Scotland
MC: Alright
RB: And we were due to go to the Near East but virtually on the day when I was called up, when I was called up?
FW: When you [unclear] the ship, I think. Go on.
RB: My brain is.
MC: Yes, I, many of you on the boat? Quite a large boat, was it?
RB: Oh, it was the Empress of Australia and we were in hammocks
MC: Oh yeah [laughs]
RB: Strung up, down below decks, with this hammock and we endeavoured to get a piece of wood to go across, to open it out because, it was, we were all in tucks of laughter when we were told about this you see, because the deck was about this much above and
MC: Did you have trouble getting into the hammock?
RB: Pardon?
MC: You had trouble getting into the hammock?
RB: Yeah, we were all stretched out in hammocks
MC: Yeah, yeah
RB: And when the shipped rolled one way we rolled the other way, and like that
MC: So you
RB: We should’ve gone to the Near East
MC: Yeah, you said and
RB: But on the day we sailed from Gourock in Scotland, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and therefore our destination was changed. I mean, we were never told where we were going until you got there [laughs]
MC: So, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour while you were on the boat, when you were out on the boat
RB: Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbour on the day that I sailed, yes
MC: So we know
RB: When we sailed from Gourock
MC: So we know what day you sailed now, cause that was 7th of December 1941, that was the day the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour
RB: Well, that was the day I sailed
MC: Yes, 7th of December ’41, yeah, and so, having arrived in Jakarta, in Java, Jakarta, where did you go from there?
RB: Well, I was taken to prison
MC: So, how soon were you taken prisoner after arriving?
RB: Oh, fairly quickly
MC: Oh, really?
FW: About three weeks, wasn’t it?
MC: Is that all? That was [laughs], goodness me!
FW: Because Singapore had fallen
MC: Yes, I know, appreciate that, yes
FW: Singapore fell on his way there and that’s why he went to Jakarta, they were meant to be going to the Near East and then gradually the thing was extended
MC: Yes, so you went
FW: Singapore they couldn’t go to
MC: I understand now that you were originally going, as you say, the Near East but when Singapore fell,
RB: Well, we were bound to Singapore
MC: Yes
RB: But
MC: Because the Japanese took Singapore
RB: Well they, on the, yes, I’ve forgotten the dates but they landed up in Thailand, they didn’t land directly in Batavia, Batavia being Java,
MC: But you were only there for a matter of weeks before you were taken prisoner
RB: Short, for a short time, yes
MC: So you didn’t get the chance
RB: Then we went by boat, called in at Cape Town
FW: This is on the way out
RB: Calling at Cape Town and from there taken by the Japanese I suppose
US: From Cape Town
MC: You went from Cape Town to Java.
RB: Java, yes.
MC: Yes, you finished in Java
RB: Yes
FW: They were meant to be, I’m forgetting the Near East, they were, no, they were meant to be going to the Far East at Singapore, but they couldn’t go to Singapore cause I understand Singapore had fallen
MC: Yes, yes
US: And three weeks after that the Japanese arrived in Java where he was already
MC: So, having been taken prisoner, how many of you were there that were taken prisoner at that time, you know?
RB: Well, in my squadron, 242 Squadron, which was Douglas Bader’s own squadron,
MC: Yes, yes, yes
RB: He was already a prisoner of war in France
MC: Yes, yeah
RB: And
MC: So the whole, getting comoodle, the whole, [unclear] was taken
RB: Yes, yes
MC: Prisoner of war
RB: We were all taken prisoner
FW: Was it something like two hundred and fifty-seven of you in the squadron?
RB: Well, two hundred and fifty I think, well that was a round number
MC: Round about that, yeah
RB: Two fifty, so of that two fifty, my squadron, 242 Squadron, only, I think, fifty-one of us came back
MC: Really? So, what happened when you were taken prisoner, did they, did you stay there? Did they keep you prisoner there or did they move you on?
RB: Oh, we were taken prisoner in Java.
MC: Yes
RB: And we were in Java I thought about eighteen months
MC: Really?
RB: Lovely country [laughs]
MC: Just a shame about the accommodation [laughs]. So what was, how can I put it? What was life like, you know, once you’ve been taken prisoner, how were you, what was, how were you treated?
RB: Pretty harshly, the main problem was shortage of food
MC: They weren’t keen on feeding you then.
RB: Well, it was a rice diet, we never saw bread for three and a half years
MC: So, in Java for eighteen months but you were prisoner of war for three and a half years.
RB: Three and a half years, yes
MC: So, from Java
RB: It takes a lot of remembering
MC: Yeah. No, it’s ok, it’s not a problem, you know, you just take your time. So, you said you were in Java for eighteen months,
RB: Yes
MC: Yes, so you
RB: Then we went to Changi in Singapore
MC: So you were in Changi, were you?
RB: We were in Changi, yes. And Wilf Wooller was there, I don’t know if you ever heard of Wilf [unclear], he was an international rugby player from South Wales
MC: So, in Changi where were you, were you, you were you on working parties? Were you given tasks the joe do?
RB: Yes, we, used to do varying work in Java for the Japanese, under the direction of the Japanese, but they were a bit sappy, I don’t they’d been out of Japan for very long and we had to salute all the Japanese whether they were, privates or generals, not always only generals
MC: Any punishment if you didn’t?
RB: Pardon?
MC: And what happened if you didn’t salute them?
RB: You got your face slapped and it wasn’t a gentle one.
MC: No.
RB: Almost knocked your head off.
MC: So how many were in the camp you were in Changi then?
RB: [unclear]
MC: At Changi, was it a big camp?
RB: Oh yes, Changi was big, yes, it was, and I wasn’t there very long
MC: Oh, you moved on from Changi, did you?
RB: Well, into Japan.
MC: Oh, yeah.
RB: Called in it at, oh Crickey! [laughs]
FW: I can’t [unclear] with this
RB: It’s very difficult to remember, so
MC: It’s alright, so you then finished, you went to Japan then, you were taken to
RB: [unclear]
MC: Really. And whereabouts in Japan were you, can you remember that?
RB: We were in the South Island of Japan called Kyushu and I was there for the rest of the war. It was a coal mining camp we went to
MC: So that where you finished up as a coal miner, coal mining for the Japanese, did you?
RB: Yeah
FW: Fukuoka province, wasn’t it?
RB: Pardon?
FW: Fukuoka province, is that right?
RB: I can’t hear you.
FW: Fukuoka
MC: The name of the place, province.
RB: Kyushu is the island,
FW: Yes
RB: It’s the South island of Japan
FW: Yes, but then Fukuoka, is that the province?
RB: [unclear]
FW: Yeah, well, we’ll just have to skip that
MC: So, you were actually doing mining for the Japanese then? You were mining for the Japanese?
RB: Yes, well, I was in the mining camp.
MC: Yeah
RB: And whether I was fortunate or unfortunate, I was one of only six people who didn’t go down the mine, I mean, I went down once or twice, we were a squad of just six and our job was to push little trucks around on a very narrow gauge railway and we had to take mainly electric motors and pumps to the mine and we used to bring them back to the workshops, we were based on the workshops [laughs].
MC: So, I mean, what was punishment like if you didn’t do what you were told?
RB: Punishments?
MC: Yes
RB: You got your face slapped
MC: Yeah, you said face slapped, you didn’t, how can I put this? You come across any
RB: Almost knocked your head off
MC: More, no more extreme punishments? You didn’t see any more extreme punishments? Any worse, any worse than that? Anything worse than that, Bob?
RB: Not that I saw
MC: So, who was
RB: Except that, we came back from the mine one day and we were in shifts, you see, and we came back on our shift at about half past five and when we came back, there was a crowd of men from the previous shift, they were all on their knees, and I don’t know what they’d done wrong, but they didn’t look very happy
MC: Really, yeah. So the, you mentioned, was it, captain Williams?
RB: Yeah, Peter Williams,
MC: Yeah, was he in Japan with you?
RB: Yes, he was and Peter Williams was a captain in the army
MC: Yes
RB: And he was a first-class officer and I actually visited him once, when I came back home. Captain Peter Williams
MC: Cause you mentioned about how the Japanese pronounced his name.
RB: Wriliam [laughs], wriliam, and they used to come, we were in, I think I’d been a [unclear] with some huts there for the prisoners and Captain Williams represented us, there were also a fairly large number of Dutch people so vetje vellen kan vetje Holland sprate? [laughs]
MC: If I knew what you said, I’d say yes [laughs]
RB: [unclear] Ein bisschen, nie veil. Yeah, he was a good man, I visited
MC: He looked after you
RB: I visited him after the war,
MC: Yes
RB: Some years after the war and his wife gave me a meal at lunch I think, I don’t remember much
MC: Yeah. So you, you talked about the number of people who were on the squadron, and only fifty or so came back
RB: Yeah, there were two fifty I think on the squadron when we left Gourock in Scotland and in the early months of my coming back home I learned that in my squadron only fifty-one man had come back, so it was very heavy
MC: Losses
RB: Losses, yes
MC: Do you know the reasons for those losses?
RB: The what?
MC: The reasons for those losses, why they failed to come back.
RB: Oh well, it was bad treatment, overwork and above all, lack of food. Food was very scarce, and it consisted, never saw bread for three and a half years, just rice and the rice varied sometimes, sometimes it was yellow, sometimes a dark colour, but it was never white like rice in England, never
FW: [unclear]
RB: We had three meals a day of rice of various calling
MC: Lots of other things in the rice, as well as rice
RB: Yeah, well yeah, well the rats in the ship that we went there, you could hear them scratching up in the rafters somewhere which, well, you got used to it,
MC: If you say so, Rob [laughs].
RB: Yeah
MC: So, how do you, so you’re in Japan, how did you get, were you in Japan when the war ended?
RB: Yes
MC: When they dropped the bomb?
RB: Yes, and I was evacuated from Nagasaki which had the second atom bomb dropped, the first one was on Hiroshima
MC: Yeah
RB: And the second one was Nagasaki and we were taken by train from our camp in Kyushu to Nagasaki by train and the swain drew all the blinds, we couldn’t see Japan at all, we got glimpses, that was all and
MC: So, Nagasaki, were you there when they dropped the bomb?
RB: Yes
MC: You were?
RB: Yes, I mean, I wasn’t, no, must get it clear, I was in Japan, I wasn’t at Nagasaki, I was about forty miles away I think but we were evacuated from Nagasaki by the Americans on an American troop ship
MC: So, when you evacuated, I assume you got well fed on the ship
RB: Never so full [unclear]
MC: I can imagine, especially the Americans
RB: Oh, the Americans, it was good food but there was so much of it, you got as much as you wanted. I suppose we got special treatment
MC: Yeah, of course, yes.
RB: Yeah, Oh, Crickey! You’re stirring my memory.
MC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, there, obviously you got evacuated by the Americans on their troopship, where did that take you to?
RB: To San Francisco. Went across the Pacific and we went to San Francisco and from there the Americans took us by train up to, is it Toronto, in Canada?
FW: Yeah [unclear] Vancouver?
MC: Yeah, you might have gone up to Vancouver first and then across
US: And then across Canada by train to Toronto, didn’t you?
RB: I went by train from San Francisco
FW: Yes
RB: Up North
FW: Yes
RB: In an American train
FW: Yes
RB: And when we got to the Canadian border, we were transferred to a Canadian train and taken from there across the Rockies, very spectacular, to Montreal and from Montreal down to New York again, back into the United States and I came home, can’t remember
FW: Was one of the [unclear]
RB: Yes, the Empress of Australia
FW: No, no, that’s what you went out on
MC: I think that’s probably, that’s what you went out on I think
FW: I think you came back on either the Queen Mary or the Queen Elisabeth, you always thought it was the Queen Mary
RB: It wouldn’t be the Queen Elisabeth
FW: Well, the Queen Mary you used to talk about
MC: Probably the Queen Mary cause they used to use it as a troopship
RB: I thought it was the Empress of Australia
FW: That’s what you went out on
MC: It’s not, no, so you came back from New York and you came back to the UK from New York. Having got back to the UK, how, I mean, what was life like back in the UK?
RB: Life?
MC: Yeah, how did you manage to settle basically?
RB: Oh yes, well, both my father and mother were alive and
MC: And pleased to see you, no doubt [laughs]
RB: Well, it was incredible, my mother had, was one of five sisters, they had big families and had five sisters and, oh Crickey!
MC: She was pleased to see you, how did she know that you were a prisoner of war?
RB: Oh yes
MC: She did, so, were you able to write home then to her?
RB: Well, I think we had cards and there were fixed sentences
MC: Yes
RB: And you picked a sentence that you wanted to have go back to your parents, I think I’ve still got that
FW: [unclear] somewhere, yes, I’ve been looking after very well here, that sort of thing
RB: Yes
MC: But so, she was aware that you were a prisoner of war.
RB: Oh yes
FW: I don’t think at first
RB: Eh?
FW: I don’t think at first she was.
MC: No, I mean, when you were first taken prisoner obviously, she wouldn’t know
FW: No
MC: Initially what happened to you
RB: Oh, been quite sometime afterwards
MC: So, having got back to the UK, you then obviously, you went back into civilian, you were demobbed once you got back?
RB: Yeah, I mean, before the war I was working for ICI, if that means anything to you
MC: Yeah, ICI, yes, I know ICI, yeah. And what were you doing for ICI?
RB: Well, I went as an office boy
MC: Yes
RB: And I was eighteen at the time, actually I’d worked somewhere else, I can’t remember
MC: That was after you were delivering hats, after you were delivering ladies’ hats
FW: That was just part-time [laughs]
MC: Yeah, I realised that, so, you went back to ICI
RB: Yes
MC: And what did you do when you went back to ICI?
RB: Well, I was a clerk
MC: Yes
RB: In the order section, in the order section of the Northern Region of ICI
MC: Yeah
RB: They divided the country into regions and I, we were in the northern region
MC: And that’s, how long were you with the ICI? How long were you with ICI?
FW: Well, you became a representative, didn’t you? When you got back to England, you became a representative for ICI in the North East.
RB: Can’t hear you from
MC: You were a representative for ICI, were you?
RB: Yes
MC: Yes. And what were you representing, were you, was it chemicals, was it, chemicals? Was it? Cause I know ICI did chemicals. What else did they do?
RB: I was in the Northern Region sales office and we dealt with the customers of ICI and took enquiries
MC: Yes, yes
FW: It was building materials and paints, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Building materials and paints. Building materials and paints and things like that for ICI products.
RB: Yes. Cement was an important product because you can’t build anything without cement and there was a great shortage of it immediately after the war and ICI produced cement from the and it was a sulphuric acid plant and it was called Pioneer cement and we used to deal it by the ton and one of my jobs was allocating cement to our customers in our region so wherever I went, I was very popular in that because cement, you can’t do anything without it when you’re building houses and
FW: People don’t realise now what shortages there were of basic things at that time
MC: No, quite right, yeah. So, what did you after ICI? Where did you go after ICI? Cause you mentioned you had your own business.
RB: Yes
MC: At what stage did you set that business up?
RB: Well, I had a friend, Jack Matthews, did you meet Jack Matthews?
FW: Yes, I did, yes.
RB: Yeah. He only had one leg, he’d lost a leg in the war and he was engineer and we formed a small engineering business, well, just the two of us and I think we gradually increased our employees, at one time we were employing about eighty people [unclear]
MC: [unclear] business
RB: Quite a business, yes, and turnover was close to a million but we never topped a million, that scenario
MC: Some time ago which wasn’t bad
RB: Yes, because cement was like gold and when I became a representative of the company, I was very popular [laughs]
MC: Yeah
RB: Cause I was able to, you know, influence the amount allocated to various customers
FW: Then when you left and started your own business
MC: Yeah [unclear]. Yeah, so your own business was manufacturing, you said, [unclear] plant?
RB: Yes, we started to manufacture gas cutting nozzles, little [unclear] like that
MC: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah
RB: Made out of copper and copper is a difficult material in which you machine, very difficult and we made cutting nozzles for cutting torches
MC: Yes
RB: And then eventually we made the cutting torches. I’ve still got one at home [laughs]. Yes, we made the best in the land
MC: So, then you say you got rid of your business, eventually?
RB: Yes
MC: Was that when you retired or
FW: He didn’t retire
MC: He didn’t retire [laughs]. So you never retired, did you, Bob?
RB: Not really, but the business was sold, now I can’t remember, I’ve got the details [unclear]
MC: Yeah, yeah
RB: I don’t look at them anymore
FW: It was in the nineties or late nineties, I think.
RB: Yes, because the nozzle is only about that big, but made out of copper and we had to drill very fine holes
MC: Yes
RB: And the outer ring provided the temperature at which, if you then applied pure oxygen, which was done through a central hole, that would pierce steel and the ones that we made would cut up to, well, if you use the right cutting nozzle, up to twelve inches
FW: Was a very precision
RB: Interesting
MC: Yes, indeed, yeah, that’s a very skilled job doing that as well
RB: Yeah
MC: Yeah, so, I mean, if I was to sum up, if we look back now, I mean, what’s your feelings about your period in the war, because obviously most of the war you spent as a prisoner of war
RB: Yeah, well, three and a half years out of six
MC: Yeah, yeah, so, what’s your thoughts about how you were treated, what you did, you know, the war itself?
RB: Well, it was a great experience, really
MC: I mean, when you heard that the bomb had been dropped
RB: Well, on the day, the first atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima
MC: Yeah you said
RB: And the next one was on Nagasaki and we were about forty miles
MC: And you didn’t see anything, you couldn’t see anything
RB: No, but I was evacuated by the Americans from Nagasaki and we were taken
FW: To Manila
RB: Can’t remember
FW: Manila?
MC: Was it Manila?
RB: We were in Manila, yes
MC: Yeah. So you saw a few places then
RB: Yes, but most of the war we were in prison camp
MC: Yeah, of course, yeah
FW: Cause on the day the dropped
RB: I recon if I’d not been taken a prisoner of war, I probably wouldn’t have been here today, because I had volunteered for aircrew, I was a wireless operator,
MC: Yeah
RB: So, I’d be going, flying in very slow aircraft but I didn’t get as far as that
MC: No
RB: Gosh!
MC: So, you was, about the day the bomb was dropped
US: Yes, do tell Mike about the day the bomb was dropped in Nagasaki, what happened to you all. On that day, on the day the bomb was dropped at Nagasaki, tell him what happened to all of you, you were pushed in a tunnel, weren’t you?
RB: Yes
FW: Yes, and explain
RB: Yes, well, we were in a coal mining area
FW: Yes
RB: And we were in coal mining camp
FW: Yes
RB: But I wasn’t hewing coal, I was one of only six men when the bomb dropped
MC: When the bomb dropped, what we are trying to [unclear], when the bomb was dropped, you were on a train.
RB: I was what?
MC: You were on a train.
FW: No,
MC: Alright, they moved, you went into a tunnel? They took you into a tunnel?
RB: No, we
FW: When there was a raid, what happened? When there was an air raid, what happened to the prisoners? What did the Japanese do? Where did they put you?
RB: Oh yes, oh God!
MC: Don’t worry about it, Bob, that’s great, you know. Appreciate what you, I mean, it’s a long time ago
RB: Well, it is a long time ago
MC: And I appreciate what you’ve told us and I thank you very much for agreeing to talk to us, I think we’ve covered most of your life and I think we’ve covered your experiences, I mean, the main thing was your experiences as a prisoner of war and you know, we tried to cover that and how you were treated and, you know, what sort of food you had and all that, so we’ve covered all that and I thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Thank you very much and thank you Flora.
FW: [unclear]
MC: So this book we’ve got here, Bob, you say you took all around the world
RB: Yes
MC: And you used to read it to the prisoners? This
RB: Yes, they’d come and ask me to read it from it, cause there weren’t a lot of books in the prisoner of war camp in Japan
MC: No, I’m amazed that you had to take it, they allowed you to keep it. Or did you hide it?
RB: Put it in a kit, we had kit bags, not [unclear] cases, kit bags, and it was just a matter of putting it in with all the rest of it and they would probably look at it, couldn’t understand it but nothing wrong with it and put it back
MC: Alright. And so you used to read it to the other prisoners
RB: Yeah, because not many of the other prisoners had books and I had this one which was bought for me by one of my mother’s sisters and I thought at the time fancy giving me SE 2 [unclear]
MC: Poetry book
RB: But really, it was, it was a great
MC: It was a godsend
RB: It was a great book to have
MC: And I’m sure the rest of the prisoners
RB: [unclear]
MC: I’m sure the rest of the prisoners enjoyed it
RB: Pardon?
MC: The rest of the prisoners enjoyed it.
RB: Oh yes, well, they used to come and ask me to read from it.
MC: Yeah
RB: Cause not all of them had taken a book.
MC: I mean, you are going back again, we are covering old ground a bit but going back to what we were saying about Nagasaki and when the bomb dropped, you were saying about how the prisoners were taken in
FW: [unclear]
MC: Yeah, that’s right, Flora, you were saying about prisoners were taken into a tunnel when there was an air raid.
RB: Yes, that was during the war, not after the war
MC: Yes
RB: And we were taken into this tunnel. I mean, they were short of labour, and our labour was very valuable to them, I think and of course, if we were in a tunnel when the Americans invaded, they said, they told us that we would be killed in this huge hole dug outside and that’s where we were going to end up [laughs]
MC: So there were Japanese there with machine guns
RB: Yeah. Yes, with machine, if you can imagine, a round hole, about the size of that window, and we were pushed into there and in front of that there was a wall built. Now, the wall was about four feet, I suppose, from the entrance of the tunnel and on the outside, because there was a wall there, there were two exits or entrances and each of those exits, they put a machine gun, you know, with two or three men manning it I suppose, pointing it at the exit of the tunnel so if we endeavoured to come out, knowing that the Americans were flying over, they could do something about it
MC: And they already had a hole dug for you [laughs].
RB: The big hole was for us [laughs]. So they told us. But of course, the atom bomb stopped all their plans, because there was nothing they dared to do when the Americans arrived but obey orders. And the orders were that if they interfered with us, they would be in trouble. So we had to put on our huts POW in large letters on the roofs of our quarters, POW and the Americans dropped, well, principally, food, that’s what we wanted
MC: Yes
RB: But also clothes, I was walking around in American suntans as they called them
MC: Yeah [unclear], so as far as you were concerned, the dropping of the atomic bomb saved a lot of lives
RB: Yeah, yes
MC: It was
RB: Oh yes, indeed
MC: And shortened the war
RB: Yes and that was my private possession
MC: That poetry book is quite amazing, the fact that you carried it round and to be able to read it to the other prisoners of war, you know, which, I mean, must have been a great help to them as well
RB: Well yes, and a lot of I think were almost illiterate
MC: Yes,
RB: You know, the standard of schooling pre-war was quite minimum compared to what they get today
MC: Yes
RB: And that was an anti book for me and I’ve kept it all that time and it’s very precious to me
MC: I’m sure it is
RB: [unclear] I did, simply by reading it, learn some of the things, forgotten verse,
MC: You said, you remember
RB: When I am dead, my dearest, sing no sad songs for me, plant thou no roses on my chest, nor shady [unclear], shay cypress tree, be the green grass above me, with showers and dewdrops wet, and if thou wilt, remember, and if thou wilt, forget, [laughs], that was printed when I got back home somewhere but there it is, the same one, when I’m dead my dear,
MC: Oh, right
FW: [unclear] Elizabeth Barrett Browning, wasn’t it? [unclear]
RB: See, that and that
MC: Alright, yes
FW: very sad
MC: So, I mean, you, from what you said, I mean, you quoted Robbie Burns
RB: Yes
MC: You know, you obviously remember a lot of the poems
RB: Oh yes
MC: By heart
RB: Yes, Robbie Burns, oh to a mouse, wee, sleeket, cowran, tim’rous beastie, oh the panic’s in thy breastie, I wad be laith to rin an’ chase thee with murd’ring pattle, still mousie, thou are no thy-lane in proving, foresight may be vain, the best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men, gang aft agley An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain, for promised joy
For promis'd joy!
MC: I love it, yeah, it’s great. You, earlier on, you spoke in Dutch cause you said you were a prisoner of war with the Dutch?
RB: Yes, Ja, I kann ja bitchen Hon sprate. Nie veil, [unclear]
MC: So you learned quite, you learned, was that, you learned to speak Dutch when you were with the [unclear] prisoners of war?
RB: Yeah
FW: Was that in Java?
MC: Was that in Java?
RB: Yes, Java was Dutch before the war
MC: Of course, yeah
RB: Yeah. And of course, they weren’t so many of them
MC: No, no
FW: And when he speaks Dutch, [unclear] set up because you [unclear] speak in English [unclear] speak Dutch, apparently it’s very good Dutch that he speaks, I think it was some professor of the English school who helped to teach him. One thing you haven’t thought about is how they got from one place to another, it was those hell ships
MC: Yeah, Bob, I mean you, we were just talking about how you moved from one place to another on the ships they called them hell ships? Moving on the ships when you moved from place to place.
RB: Yeah
MC: They called them hell ships? You know, what they were like, the boats they were like when you were moved around.
RB: When we came home, you mean?
MC: No, no
FW: No, when you moved from Java to Singapore and from Singapore to Japan
MC: Japan
FW: That sort, what were the ships like?
RB: We were down in the hold.
MC: Yeah, not very good.
RB: Not very good. And there were rats running on the rafters above us [laughs]
FW: From what he says, they were just like sardines
MC: Yes, and you were packed in tight, were you? You were packed in tight.
RB: Oh yes. Well, the accommodation that I remember, particularly we were in hammocks and I think this must have been in a British ship and we were strung up
MC: Ah, that would’ve been going out or coming back
FW: But this was when you are on the
RB: No, when we came back, we came back by America
MC: Yeah, you said that, yeah. I’m thinking about when you were on the Japanese ships, were you able to lay down or you stood up all the time?
RB: No, we could lie down, but you were touching each other at each side, very crowded. And very hot.
FW: I should think very smelly as well.
RB: Yeah. Yeah, wasn’t very pleasant.
MC: No.
RB: Oh well
FW: [unclear] really, isn’t it?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Boocock
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABoocockR170406
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:54:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
Indonesia
Singapore
Japan
Indonesia--Java
Japan--Nagasaki-shi
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Boocock spent three and a half years in Japanese prisoner of war camps. As a young boy, he had a part time job in delivering ladies’ hats. He was conscripted into the Air Force and initially trained to become a wireless operator. After completing his training, he was posted to 242 Squadron on Hurricanes. He then was sent on a ship from Scotland to Java on the 7th of December 1941. Three weeks after getting to Java, he was taken prisoner by the Japanese and sent to a POW camp. From Java he was then sent to Changi and from there to a coal mine in Japan, where he stayed until the end of the war. He was then taken by train from there to near Nagasaki, on the day the bomb was dropped, and evacuated on an American troopship. He gives a detailed account of his experience. Recalls harsh punishment inflicted by the guards and food shortage. Remembers reading a book to the other prisoners in the camp. After the war, he worked for a chemical company before starting his own business.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
242 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Nagasaki (9 August 1945)
prisoner of war
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10654/PPayneR1706.2.jpg
159404936ab96ee8ba4b3699b7729414
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/622/10654/APayneR170827.1.mp3
1de45d8e74c9ad679e3453cc09064e7f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Reg
R Payne
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, R
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Two oral history interviews with Reg Payne (1923 - 2022, 1435510 Royal Air Force), his memoirs and photographs. Reg Payne completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. His pilot on operations was Michael Beetham. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Fred Ball. Additional information on Fred Ball is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/100970/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.<a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/ball-fc/"></a></p>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-03
2017-08-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Reg Payne. The interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place on Friday the 25th of August 2017 at Mr Payne’s home in Kettering. Also present is Mr Payne’s son, David. Ok, Reg. Thanks for doing this interview. What I’d like to ask you, just tell me, the first thing I want you to tell me is where, where were you born?
RP: Where was I born? I was born in Kettering.
MC: You were born in Kettering.
RP: Yeah. Only just the other side of this town. Kettering.
MC: And what date was that?
RP: What date. It was 11th of March 1923.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what, your parents had lived here for a while.
RP: My parents, they were born and bred in this.
MC: Oh, Kettering as well.
RP: They were, they were all local. Local Kettering people. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. What did your dad do then?
RP: He worked at Freeman Hardy and Willis’.
MC: Oh right.
RP: Boot, boot and shoe factory.
MC: Great.
RP: Made famous.
MC: Famous for shoes in Kettering.
RP: Famous. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And your mum? She —
RP: Mum. She also worked in one of the factories of course but on a closing machine. You know, as a, as a machinist.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: On the on the boot and shoe, you know, building.
MC: Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So what about school? I mean obviously you went to Infant School in Kettering. Or all your school years were in Kettering?
RP: I just went to a very local school.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: In Kettering. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Just an ordinary, ordinary —
MC: Enjoy your school days?
RP: I did. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And what Secondary School? Which one? Which Secondary School? Can you remember where it was?
RP: Well, it [laughs] wasn’t a very high-class school it but I mean it was, I’ll say one thing it was the parish church school —
MC: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: In Kettering.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: And they were very, we did a lot of backwards and forwards to the church all the time. It was very publicised that way.
MC: How old were you when you left school?
RP: Fourteen.
MC: Fourteen. And what did you do then? What? Did you go, what job did you do?
RP: Yeah. Fourteen [pause]
MC: You left school.
RP: Oh —
MC: Yeah. Go on.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You left school at fourteen.
RP: Fourteen yeah.
MC: So, what was your first job?
RP: Yeah. Fourteen. I worked at, at Tresham College.
MC: Oh yeah.
RP: Yeah. Well, no to start with, I think to start with, that’s right I went in a, in a factory.
MC: Oh yeah.
RP: The factory making shoe machinery and and, you know, making shoe machinery and sold it all abroad. But, but later, later I I left there and I I actually, I actually went to Tresham College as a, as a technician there.
MC: Oh, so looking after their equipment and stuff.
RP: Oh yeah. You see at Tresham College they did, they taught engineers there you see.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: And once, once I’d been in a factory for, for about four, four years probably as a charge hand, you know I applied for a job and got a job at Tresham College. But again all it was there, Tresham, Tresham College you’d got a lot of machinery in there because they taught, they taught you know shoemaking and you know stitching and all that sort of thing they had a lot of machinery as well as plumbing materials.
MC: So, did you do anything else before you joined the Air Force? Were you involved in anything?
RP: No. No.
MC: What about the Home Guard and things like that?
RP: I was in the Home Guard. Yeah.
MC: You were in the Home Guard.
RP: The Home Guard. Yeah. What’s that? [pause] Home Guard. RAF. Oh yeah. Yeah.
DP: He’s telling you Mike things that are quite out of, stop that.
[recording paused]
MC: So, we carry on Reg. You were, you were in the Home Guard when you, when you were at, when you were working with the —
RP: Yeah. Yeah. I was in the in the Home Guard, I think when I was about, I must have been about sixteen I should think, mustn’t I?
MC: Yeah. Seventeen, yeah. Yeah.
RP: I wasn’t very old.
MC: So, so when when did you join the RAF? How old were you?
RP: I should think very close on eighteen.
MC: Eighteen.
RP: I wasn’t quite eighteen.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: When I actually went in the RAF.
MC: What made you choose the RAF?
RP: Well, I was, I was always interested in aeroplanes you know, and but the thing is if you waited, if you waited ‘til, ‘til you were eighteen when you were called up you went where they put you.
MC: Yeah.
RP: So, if so when if before you were called up if you volunteered for what you wanted to do you, you arranged it.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know, you —
MC: So, anybody else in your family in the RAF, were they? Were they in the Services?
RP: I’ve got, I’ve got a young brother Brian, yeah but I don’t think, I don’t think he’s ever been in the, because he was born, he was born after the war.
MC: Oh right.
RP: My young brother. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you chose the RAF because of your interest.
RP: Yeah. Brian.
DP: What did you just say?
RP: Brian never went? Did he go in the RAF?
[recording paused]
MC: So, I mean basically you’re saying that you had an older brother that was in the RAF as well.
RP: My older brother. Yeah. And he, and he was, he was shot down.
MC: Oh, was he?
RP: He was a prisoner of war. Yeah.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. He was on, he was on 49 Squadron. I was with 50 Squadron.
MC: Oh. 49. Fiskerton.
MC: What, what job did he do? What was his —
RP: He was a wireless operator.
MC: Oh, was he a wireless operator?
RP: Like me.
MC: Ran in the family. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, ok. What, having joined the Air Force where did, where did you go first? Where was your basic training?
RP: At Blackpool to start with.
MC: Oh, you went to Blackpool, did you?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Oh, yeah. So how long, do you know how long —
RP: Blackpool. At Blackpool we spent the first, the first four or five months at Blackpool learning the Morse Code.
MC: Oh, did you?
RP: Yeah. In the tram sheds at Blackpool.
MC: Oh really.
RP: Yeah.
MC: What about marching and drill training? Where did you, where did you do that?
RP: All, in the mornings, all morning until lunchtime we were on Morse. Morse Code.
MC: Yeah.
RP: We were in the tram sheds at Blackpool.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And in the wintertime the big doors kept folding back and the trams kept coming in and and then we got all the cold air from the, from the north [laughs] from the North Sea coming in and we were sitting. We were sitting at tables like, you know.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Doing Morse. Yeah. On there.
MC: So you was there for a fair few months then.
RP: Oh, we were there, we were there I should think for about four months I should think.
MC: So how did you come to be chosen to, choose to become a wireless operator. Why a wireless operator? Did they choose it or did you choose it?
RP: Well, when you, it was a, it was a trade in the Air Force, you see.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: You could, you could either, you could either be a gunner, a rear gunner or something like that or you could have been a navigator or you could be a wireless operator you see.
MC: Yeah. You must have had the aptitude for being, being a wireless operator.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. That’s —
RP: And being, you know, being, being a wireless operator the biggest thing was learning Morse Code, you know was, you know it took you about six months you see.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: To really use it properly. To —
MC: So, after you, after Blackpool where did you go from Blackpool then? Did you carry on with your Morse?
RP: No. I went to Blackpool. Went down somewhere in Wiltshire. I’m not, I can’t think [pause] Somewhere near Devizes or somewhere down there.
MC: I know. One of the Radio Schools.
RP: It was. It was, yeah. And this is, this is where we went much deeper into radio learning about valves.
MC: Oh right, yeah. I know. Would it have been Yatesbury?
RP: Yatesbury. Yeah.
MC: Did you go to Yatesbury?
RP: Yatesbury. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Number 2 Radio School.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yatesbury.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You learned all about different valves. Tetrodes, Pentodes Triodes.
MC: Oh, my word.
RP: You know.
MC: You still remember all those.
RP: Oh yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: I remember those, yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, anyway, so Yatesbury was you you did all your training.
RP: Radio. Yeah.
MC: Radio operating.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Operator training on the equipment.
RP: And wireless as well, you know. Valves and aerials and that sort of thing.
MC: Your technical side.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And did you fly then during your —
RP: Did?
MC: Did you fly then at Yatesbury?
RP: At Yatesbury? I think they I think they took us up. They took us up I think either once or twice. That’s all.
MC: Do you know what aircraft they would be in?
RP: I think it was a Dragon Rapide, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Biplane was it?
MC: Did you?
RP: Yeah.
MC: [unclear] Yeah.
RP: Yeah, and there was just the odd wireless set in there with, and we were perhaps just allowed to send a small message on it in turn, you know. Perhaps about four of us in the aircraft and, and we would be sort of call the station up with call signs you know and, and just send a short message to them and that’s the first time we ever, that was the first time we ever sent a message, you know. Radio from, from aircraft. You know, that’s, that was just the start of it.
MC: So, how long were you at Yatesbury then?
RP: I I can’t really remember.
MC: No.
RP: Well, I’ve, I’ve got a little logbook there.
MC: So, when you finished at Yatesbury where did you go from there? Where did you go to from Yatesbury? You must have gone to, did you go to Operational Training Unit? No, you wouldn’t have. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So —
RP: Yeah.
MC: Going from Yatesbury you went to North Coates and you think there was, that was —
RP: North. North Coates. Yeah. I I think I was sent, I was sent to North Coates because the place, the place where I was at at the time there was an epidemic I think on the, on the airfield of some, some complaint and we, and they, they got rid of us.
MC: Yeah. Oh, I see. And then you went up to, you said South Kensington. Was that crewing up?
RP: To South Kensington. No. That was the Albert Hall.
MC: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: That was, that was ours—
MC: That would be on —
RP: That was our classrooms.
MC: Oh right.
RP: The Albert Hall.
MC: Oh. Oh right. Yeah. So that would have been while you were still doing your wireless operator training.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And then you, and then obviously part of that was a gunnery course. Part of your training was a gunnery course.
RP: A gunnery course. Yeah.
MC: Where was that? Stormy Down was that?
RP: It’s not —
MC: Stormy Down.
RP: It’s not mentioned there.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Stormy Down.
RP: I think, I think we all went down to Stormy Down. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: That was, that’s down on, that’s on the south coast somewhere, isn’t it?
MC: Yeah. I think it is.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And after, after your gunnery course and that you then did training in some Ansons. Anson aircraft.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Where was that? Can you remember where that was?
RP: It would be right, right in the front of the —
MC: Yeah. [pause] That was the basically completion of your wireless operator —
RP: Yeah.
MC: Training, wasn’t it? Yeah. And then —
RP: Yeah, because in the wireless operator training you know, you did air. Air to air ground messages and things.
MC: Yeah. What [pause] after the trade training, wireless operator training when, what stage did you crew up? When you get your crew together. That was before you went to the OTU, wasn’t it?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Where was that? Can you remember where you got, you met up with Mike Beetham and them and you —
RP: Do you know it’s —
MC: So, you got, so you, you crewed up with Mike Beetham because there would have been five of you wouldn’t there to go to the OTU. Which OT, Operational Training Unit did you go to? 14 OTU.
RP: 14, yeah.
MC: Number 14 OTU.
RP: Well, Market Harborough was one of them.
MC: Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Market Harborough.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. That would be, yeah that would be 14 OTU probably.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And which aircraft were you flying now?
RP: Wellingtons.
MC: Wellingtons. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s with, obviously with Mike Beetham.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And then that would be Mike Beetham. Les. Les Bartlett.
RP: Les. Les Bartlett. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah, and Frank. Frank Swinyard.
MC: Swinyard.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. There would be five of you then at that time.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Wouldn’t there? Because they were in Wellingtons.
RP: Yeah. That’s right. Before. Before we go to —
MC: Yeah. Yeah. And from the OTU you went to [pause] where? Where did you go from there? You must have been gone from a Conversion Unit.
RP: That’s right. On four engine aircraft. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Was that Coningsby or somewhere? Was it? Or —
MC: Where did you go? Was it Wiglsey?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Wigsley.
RP: Wigsley?
MC: Yeah.
RP: That’s right. We were at Wigsley. Yeah.
MC: That’s right. You were —
RP: Yeah.
MC: At 1654 Conversion Unit.
RP: Conversion, yeah.
MC: At Wigsley. Yeah. So, can you remember what aircraft you were flying there? Was it [pause] did you fly in a Halifax? Did you do any of the —
RP: No. We did. We, we did fly in Halifaxes.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: There.
MC: Yeah. And then Lancasters.
RP: Yeah. And then then Lancasters later. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Finished your conversion there and so from, from the Conversion Unit you were posted straight to 50 Squadron. Yeah?
RP: Yeah, but there would be nothing, there would be nothing in between. No.
MC: So, what did you get up to? You know, I mean obviously you were at the OTU and you were at the thing, I mean recreation wise what, you know when you were out and about, you know. Did you go out at all, you know to the local pubs and inns and hostelries?
RP: Well, I mean some of the OTU I did at Desborough.
MC: Oh, did you? Yeah.
RP: Yeah. At Desborough. That was on —
MC: Yeah. That’s Market Harborough way. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. I don’t, yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So having joined 50 Squadron you you got the rest of your, oh it must have been at the Conversion, at the Conversion Unit you must have picked up the rest of the crew. Your crew.
RP: That’s right. There’d be a —
MC: Flight engineer.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And another gunner.
RP: Yeah.
[pause]
RP: Yeah. Now they’d be a flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Probably. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah, because Fred, our rear gunner he was with me, you know, right, more or less at the start. The rear gunner. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: On there.
MC: Yeah. So, arriving at 50 Squadron, Skellingthorpe what was your impressions of the base when you got there?
RP: Well, it was, it was 50 Squadron and also 61 Squadron.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Was there, wasn’t it? They were on one side of the airfield. We were, we were on other. You know. And I still think we had to do quite a bit of flying there. You know, it would have been, well quite a bit. You know, we had to do some flying before we, they ever put us on operations.
MC: Yeah. I gather you were there.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know.
RP: And I think the navigator and pilot they had, they went out on an operation, on an operation as passengers, you know. Even before we did.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: And they, they come back and told us all about it.
MC: Yeah. So, your first operation was to Berlin.
RP: Berlin. Yeah.
MC: And what was your impression of your first operation?
RP: [laughs] Well [laughs] well it wasn’t, you know. You know, you’d think they’d give us something a bit more simple wouldn’t you? Really. You know, than, than go to Berlin.
MC: So was it fairly uneventful? I mean it wouldn’t have been uneventful but I mean —
RP: Oh, there was, there was on [pause] on, does it, it gives the losses does it? On there?
MC: Yeah. I mean you’ve got in in your logbook.
RP: Does it mention any? Any losses on there?
MC: Thirty two missing.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Thirty two missing it says in your logbook.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. So that’s, that was our first start.
MC: Yeah.
RP: There.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And then it was Berlin, Berlin, Berlin.
MC: So, your second operation was Berlin as well.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And your third operation was Berlin as well.
RP: Yeah. Berlin. Three Berlins.
MC: Your first three operations were to Berlin.
RP: That was all in about a week, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Goodness Me. That’s something. I know.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So I see.
RP: And how many aircraft did we lose in, in the three?
MC: Yeah. A lot. A lot. You know, fifty six missing you’ve got down here now.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So and there was, hair raising raids weren’t they? To Berlin.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And they were quite long. They were about eight hours, wasn’t it? Berlin trips.
RP: Mostly. Mostly. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Because, because they, they used to fly to Berlin. Not a, not a direct route there and a direct route back, you know. They would perhaps, they would perhaps head over Norway somewhere first.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And then come down from the north then instead of, you know [pause] I think it’s mainly, mainly to the wear and tear on the Germans flying you know. Whether they, whether their aircraft could keep up with us.
MC: Yeah. [pause] You did a [pause] on the, you did a dinghy search. Did a dinghy search.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Did that, that doesn’t count as an operation, does it?
RP: No.
MC: No.
RP: No. It was, I think it was, it was just something of, you know an extended flight and then —
MC: Just to see if you could, looking for people.
RP: Probably interesting. Interesting. Well, yeah.
MC: Looking for some. Well, looking for people who had gone down.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, having done three trips to Berlin which was quite hair raising you then did a trip to Leipzig which was a fair trip. Was that eventful or did, what happened there?
RP: [laughs] Well, well a lot, nearly all the trips were here where you you saw, you saw loads of aircraft being shot down. You know, when you, when you, when you were looking out the, you know the turrets and things or if you were in, I used to be in the astrodome.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Quite a bit. That was my position in there. Because I used to, I used to take all the, take all the star shots for the navigator through, through the astrodome, you know. And I, and I used to tell him what stars were, were available and you know, he’d say, ‘Well, get me a shot on that.’ That sort of thing.
MC: You mention in your logbook on your fourth operation to Leipzig that you landed at Wittering. Wittering, because you were damaged by a JU88.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: You were damaged by a JU88.
RP: Yeah.
MC: On the Leipzig trip. Yeah. Was that, that must have been a bit hair raising?
RP: Well, that’s right. It hit us. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. We actually, luckily, luckily no damage was done to anything definite like, you know. If it had, if it had sort of caught us in, hit us in the petrol tanks or something like that, you know we, we would have lost probably all our petrol. We wouldn’t have got home. Or sometimes if it, sometimes if it hit us and petrol was leaking and it, and it, and it got round to the, anywhere near the exhaust because there was flame, flames coming out of the exhaust you know. The whole wing would have caught fire then.
MC: Yeah. You do mention that you landed at Wittering short of fuel.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, I mean, it’s obviously —
RP: Yeah.
MC: If you were taking evasive action.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You would have used a lot of fuel.
RP: We landed, we landed at Wittering quite a lot really because they had, they had a marvellous long runway there. There was two, there was two aerodromes together. There was Wittering and there was another one next to it and they had one big long runway that served the two of them. Massive place.
MC: So, the next one was Frankfurt. Frankfurt. That was, that wasn’t such a long trip to Frankfurt but that was —
RP: Well, well it’s —
MC: That was part of —
RP: It wasn’t as far as Berlin. No. No. There were still some losses though I suppose though were there?
MC: Yeah. Well, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course back to Berlin for your next one.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know. And you mention here that you, that this, this operation to Berlin that you have an incendiary through the starboard inboard.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Tank. So, you were hit by a bomb from above, were you?
RP: That’s right. From our own aircraft. Yeah.
MC: How did you become aware of that? I mean obviously you must have been aware.
RP: Well, I mean you get aircraft flying above you. You don’t, you wouldn’t even, even know they were above you so [laughs] and when, when they, when they, when they bombed you know unluckily you were, you were in the direct path of the bombs.
MC: So, I mean it went through the inboard tank. Did you, obviously you lost fuel from that.
RP: Eh?
MC: You lost fuel from it hitting the tank.
RP: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah, but, but sometimes though does it say where we landed because sometimes, sometimes then if we we’re short of fuel we, you know, we landed —
MC: Yeah. Down at Wittering. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. That’s —
RP: Because it’s not so much. It’s not so much, you know coming back, coming back at nights like. If you were short, if we knew you were short of fuel and you were going to return to your own base you, you might be kept circling round the aerodrome for quite some time because if you went to your own aerodrome there was two squadrons there. There would be twenty, twenty aircraft from each. From each Squadron. So you’d perhaps get, you might get about twenty. Twenty. Twenty aircraft circling round and, and you had, you had to wait your turn to land and if you, and if you didn’t have much fuel left you know, you were, you were desperate, you know. You had, you had to call up and tell them, you know you had little or no fuel left and you must land. You know, it’s, you know, it's all these little things cropped up.
MC: So, after yet another, after that incendiary through your tank you, you went back to Berlin again after that.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Another trip to Berlin.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You certainly, you did, you got experience of Berlin. And after that you did a trip to Stettin. Stettin. That’s a long trip.
RP: Stettin. Yeah. That’s a long journey.
MC: Yeah. That —
RP: How long? How long was that?
MC: That was nearly nine hours.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Nearly nine hours.
RP: Yeah.
MC: That’s a, that’s a long old trip that is.
RP: I know. I know it was a long flight.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Obviously, it was uneventful as such, you know. You weren’t attacked there or anything. No. You got away with that one. And Stettin was followed by Brunswick which was relatively a fairly short trip you know but, you mention in your logbook a lot of losses. You know. Different places. And after Brunswick back to Berlin again.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yet again.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, your Berlin trips are mounting up.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You did a lot.
RP: I did ten. Ten to Berlin all together.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. I’m just looking. After that another trip to Berlin. You got [pause] it says, your logbook says, “Berlin spoof attack.” What does that mean? What do you mean by spoof attack? Is that [pause] is that a diversion raid or [pause] Don’t worry.
RP: I I remember, I remember the term spoof attack [pause] unless, unless it was just a few Lancasters that were, that were, that were sent there, you know, to, so the Germans authorities would think, would think, you know It’s Berlin again. You know, and every, they’d all go to, they’d all go to Berlin and yet the actual, the actual operation was at Magdeburg or somewhere. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, after that again right through January ’44 you were, you had two more trips to Berlin. You know.
RP: Yeah.
MC: I find it amazing that you had so many trips to Berlin. Yeah. So you got to [pause] early part of, early part of February ’44 and again you, you were, on the 12th of February ’44 you went on a, I mean all, all these trips were interspersed with training flights aren’t they?
RP: Yeah.
MC: And fighter affiliation. But you had an incident with fighter affiliation, didn’t you? Queenie.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Lost Queenie. Tell us a bit about that. How that happened because you were fighter affiliation and you took an extra.
RP: Oh.
MC: Pilot and two, two gunners up, didn’t you?
RP: That’s when that’s when we had to bale out, isn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. How did that, tell us about that. What was the incident? I gather Michael did the first, took on the first attack, did he? Mike Beetham.
RP: When?
MC: Mike Beetham took on the first attack from the affiliation from the Spitfire.
RP: What, the training? The training flights.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Well, oddly enough, oddly enough when we, when we actually we had got to the dispersal you know to take, to take off another pilot, another pilot joined us. Another pilot joined us and his two gunners. And and, and we had, we, we must I think, I think we only had six in our crew, I think. There was one of them never came. I’m not sure. But I know we had, we had our full crew. Our full crew and then we had this other, this other pilot and his two gunners. And, and so that I think there was ten of us. That’s right. In the aircraft. And we had to go out, we had to fly it over the North Sea, for some distance over the North Sea and we had to pick up a Spitfire. A Spitfire. He was waiting for us, you know about about twenty miles, twenty miles from the coast and we were flying perhaps at about, about sixteen thousand feet. Quite some height. And the fighter affiliation exercise, this other, this other pilot and his two gunners and of course my pilot and our two gunners we we flew and contacted the Spitfire and the Spitfire called us up on the RT, you know. They could talk to each you see on there. And the Spitfire says, ‘When you’re ready. When you’re ready I’ll I’ll come in and start the attacks.’ You see. And, and I think it was, that’s right it it was our, our crew to start with. Our seven. We we called the Spitfire up and told him to, you know carry on. We were ready for him. And he would be attacking us you see and when he, when he got near, you know the rear gunner would be saying, you know, ‘Fighter. Fighter. Starboard quarter up. Prepare to corkscrew to port. Corkscrew to port. Go.’ And of course, the pilot then would listen to the gunner giving details and he’d go in these big spiral dives. You know, to try and [pause] and the Spitfire would be trying to, you know, follow him. You know, to get a deflection on him and, but it, but it was all being recorded you see. It was all, it was all being recorded that so that when, when they, when they got back the air gunners could go to their gunnery section and the film could be shown and and it could all be talked about and whether they took the, you know the correct decisions like there. But, but my two, my two gunners they, they did their term all right. They did their term all right and then we had to, we had to get back up to some height again and then we had to call the Spitfire up and tell him that we were ready because this, this other pilot and his two gunners they were going to do their bit. But, but from the height we were it was a lovely sunny day and I think, what was it? January, was it? Yeah. And it was bitter cold really.
MC: February.
RP: Although it was sunny. Yeah. When, when the, when the other pilot, when he, when he, his two gunners got in and he called the Spitfire up and told him that we were all ready for him, he could commence the exercise they give the thing you know, ‘Fighter. Fighter. Starboard quarter.’ Or wherever it was. And they said, ‘Prepare to corkscrew to port.’ And then they said, ‘Corkscrew. Corkscrew port. Go.’ And do you know, I’ve never, never been in a Lancaster like that. It was flying along and all of a sudden it didn’t. It didn’t come down like that. It came down like.
MC: Vertical.
RP: Came down like vertical. Vertical. And we were, we were all sitting sort of sideways like, you know. There. And when, when he pulled out, when he pulled out about two or three thousand feet from the sea, when he pulled out from the sea the, the wing from the, from the port outer, that wing it, it suddenly lifted up. It suddenly cracked and it lifted up at an angle. You know, it snapped. The pressure from the air. And and the pilot said, you know, the pilot said, ‘Good God,’ he said, ‘The bloody wing’s on fire.’ You know and then it, and then it started to, flames started coming from it and, and the pilot said, ‘Right everybody abandon aircraft.’ You know, because I mean the plane was, it was sort of coming down at an angle and there was a, there was a, there was a rush then to get out through the —
MC: So, who gave the order to abandon aircraft? Was it Mike? Mike Beetham.
RP: Mike Beetham, I think.
MC: Mike, was it?
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: It wasn’t the second pilot. The other pilot.
RP: No. No. He was the, he was the senior. Senior pilot. The other, he was only a young, young pilot the other, the other fella. Yeah. Yeah. I mean and five of our crew managed to bale out in time and, and just and there was four of his crew but two of them managed to get out.
MC: Three in his crew.
RP: Hmnn?
MC: Three in his crew.
RP: Was it?
MC: Yeah. You said a pilot and two gunners.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
[pause]
MC: Yeah. So —
RP: Yeah. He had, there was the pilot, he was a very young pilot actually. Yeah. But he did have two gunners and they, and they, they never got out. I think, I think that the pilot got out. As far as I know. I mean, I was luckily, luckily I was down at the back door of the Lancaster and, and I had nobody stopping me from getting out and I —
MC: You got out alright.
RP: I baled out.
MC: You didn’t have any problems getting out.
RP: From there. No. But, but whilst I was on the parachute the wing section had come, it had come off the Lancaster all together and it was, it was skimming backwards and forwards in the air like a leaf. Like a leaf. Because I, because I thought to myself, my God, I hope it doesn’t, I hope it doesn’t hit my parachute because that was just it was just sort of just skimming. Floating about on there.
MC: So, so who was lost on your crew?
RP: Both our gunners. Both of our gunners were lost.
MC: Both of your air gunners.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Wait a minute. No. The flight engineer. The flight engineer. He was killed. Yeah. On there. Yeah. Flight engineer and the rear gunner.
MC: But they didn’t get out of the aircraft.
RP: They, they didn’t get out. No. They went down with it. And the, and two members of this other crew they didn’t get out because there was four killed in it all together.
MC: Yeah.
RP: In there.
MC: I gather, I mean you, I think you’ve told the story about one or, one or two of them didn’t take a parachute.
RP: What?
MC: Didn’t take a parachute.
RP: Oh, that was our flight engineer. Yeah. Of course. He hadn’t got a parachute. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right because, because on entering the aircraft, you know waiting for, waiting for everybody to get in the aircraft I said, ‘Don where’s your, where’s your ‘chute?’ He said, ‘Oh, its only a training flight Reg.’ He said, ‘I’m not,’ he said, ‘I’m bothered about wearing a ‘chute.’ You see. That’s right, yeah. And that cost him his life on there. Of course, he went down with the aircraft. Yeah.
MC: So where did you land?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Where did you land?
RP: Well, luckily, luckily when I baled out I was quite high up and all I could see was the North Sea below me and it was lovely sunshine but I was, but I was drifting. I was drifting towards the coast and and we hadn’t got Mae Wests on. We hadn’t even got Mae Wests. So if we’d have come down in the sea, you know in December even a mile from the coast.
MC: Yeah. February. Yeah.
RP: February, was it?
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. I know, I know it was winter time. Yeah. On there. And I thought my gosh, you know but luckily, but luckily I seemed to be drifting along nearer to the, I could see the coast in the distance and as we got nearer and nearer of course I was getting a bit lower but, but in the end I passed over the Norfolk coast and —
MC: Lincolnshire.
RP: And I landed quite near East Kirkby airfield.
MC: That’s a long way inland. You must have drifted a long way.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. It must, must be about ten, ten miles inside, inside —
MC: Probably more. Probably more.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah And, yeah, so you landed near East Kirkby.
RP: Yeah. Because I I seemed to keep drifting and seeing the, you know seeing the fields going by me.
MC: Yeah. What, what I find amazing is that that was on the 12th of February. You lost two crew members and yet you got two new members and you were flying again on operations on the 19th. A week later.
RP: Yeah [laughs] yeah.
MC: So, you got —
RP: But they, they’d have, they’d have like what they called odd bods like that weren’t, weren’t probably members of a crew but they were there I suppose —
MC: But —
RP: For that reason.
MC: It doesn’t seem enough time to give you to recover from that. Unless they thought the opposite. They thought they would put you straight back on operations.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Having had an incident like that.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Baled out.
RP: Yeah. were we long, sort of in there? Was it very long in my logbook when they —
MC: No. It’s only a week.
RP: Was it?
MC: Yeah. A week from when you baled out to when you went on your next operation.
RP: Really?
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know, so, I mean, you flew your next operation to Leipzig.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know.
RP: Yeah. That was a long, fair —
MC: Seven hours. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, I mean, so who were your new crew members then? So, oh it’s [pause] Who was your new crew members? Can you remember who replaced [pause] who was your flight engineer. Was it? [pause] No. I’m trying to think now. Was it Arthur smith? It wasn’t Arthur Smith was it? No.
RP: No. No. I’m [pause] I’m trying to think. Do you know, I’m trying to think which, which of our crews we we lost. Oh, one was Fred Ball.
MC: Yeah. Fred Ball.
RP: Fred Ball the rear gunner. He was. He was one that was killed and also, also the flight engineer. Don. Don Knight is it? Don. Our flight engineer.
MC: So, you got a new flight engineer.
RP: So we, so we had to get a new flight engineer and a new rear gunner.
MC: Yeah, a new rear gunner.
Yeah. Took, yeah —
So it didn’t take long. You were up again flying in a week
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Up again and flying in a week.
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
MC: I mean. I mean —
RP: But we, there was no, no sort of holiday.
MC: I mean, you know you baled out on the 12th. On the 19th, you know, you did half an hour’s flight test. Air test on the 19th. And then on the evening of the 19th you went on operations to Leipzig.
RP: Yeah.
MC: I find, you know that’s quite amazing.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And then of course ultimately on the 25th of February you did the Augsburg raid which, which is, you know that’s an eight hour trip and that was a, a hairy, was, did you you know was there anything hairy about that. I mean —
RP: Where?
MC: Augsburg.
RP: Augsburg.
MC: Yeah. Do you remember much about it?
RP: Not really. No.
MC: Oh, you do say you returned on three engines.
RP: Yeah.
MC: In your logbook. Can you remember that?
RP: It what?
MC: Returned on three engines.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. In logbook. So obviously a successful operation.
RP: Yeah.
MC: I mean you actually did, you know [pause] ten ops to Berlin in that. That time. So next was Stuttgart. You, you went on to Stuttgart. So that was —
RP: Yeah.
MC: Well, the targets were changing then from Berlin, weren’t they?
RP: Yeah well, that’s right. They varied it. Yeah.
MC: And then you did Marseilles.
RP: Well, that was, that was a cushy one, I think, wasn’t it? What we called? Yeah. A much shorter one, was it?
MC: Well, yeah. It says, yeah. I mean your logbook says that you, “Ops, Aircraft factory and airfield at Marseilles. Bombed at ten thousand feet.” Aiming point. You landed at Fiskerton.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Under FIDO.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So obviously it was, you were fogbound.
RP: That’s Fog Intensive Dispersal Of.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: That’s on their big long runway up there.
MC: Yeah.
RP: We, we landed on that once or twice, you know. Over there. That’s where my brother was. He was.
MC: Yeah.
RP: He was flying from there.
MC: I mean, the thing is at Marseilles you think it would be a short trip and of course your trips perhaps it was a cushy trip but according to your logbook you were out for nearly nine hours.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And you must have been, you know trying to find somewhere to land or something like that.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Either that or it was a, it was a diversion you know. Sending you out on, on one route and then you sort of switch back.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know, to, to mislead the Germans as to where you were going, I suppose.
MC: So, following that and Marseilles you were back to Berlin again. So, you know it’s this is on the 24th of March you were back to Berlin.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And what, I mean it says here you landed at Foulsham. Any idea. I don’t know Foulsham.
RP: Where?
MC: Foulsham.
RP: Foulsham, as in, in Norfolk.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Then you started Essen. You did the Essen trip. And of course Nuremberg.
RP: Well, that, that was, that was a real nasty one. Yeah.
MC: Yeah, I can imagine.
RP: That was about the worst. It was easily the worst. The worst trip we ever went on. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. What was it like? I mean, what do you remember about it?
RP: Well, I remember. I remember it was, it was a moonlight. There was, there was a moon still showing but, but at briefing they said that there’d be cloud cover so that the moon shouldn’t, you know, wouldn’t really worry us too much. But that was, that was a load of poppycock because when we, when we took off there was all the clear sky there and the moon there and you could, you could see other aircraft there. And, and the route, the route was over Holland on the way. And at one stage over Holland the Germans were shooting aircraft down and leaving a trail of them. You could, you could look back on where, where you’d come from and you could see aircraft burning on the ground from, for miles back there. I think they, they shot about twenty, twenty or thirty down, you know in about, about a sixty mile flight. You could see all the aircraft burning on the ground because they’d all got their, they’d all got their full bomb loads on you see and you know, and two thirds of the petrol as well.
MC: So, I mean obviously you, you got through unscathed.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: You got through unscathed.
RP: That’s right. Yeah.
MC: So, I mean what do you put that down to Reg? Do you [pause] luck or pilot skill?
RP: Well, I think, I think our two gunners really kept their eyes open and if, if they, if they said there was aircraft, aircraft on the starboard side sort of thing. I noticed Mike Beetham would move over on, over the port side more and, you know and he, he sort of tried to keep away from where there was a lot of activity. But, but on that, looking back though, looking back where we come across Holland you could see all, you could see all the Lancasters burning on the ground. You know, for about twenty miles back you could see them because I mean they, they’d all got, they’d all got, you know, two, two thirds of their petrol. They’d all, you know, they got. They all, nearly, well nearly three quarters of their petrol there and they’d got all the bombs and ammunition on there that was all burning.
MC: Yeah. So, having bombing Nuremberg what about the trip back? Was that as bad?
RP: Not really. I think, I think what they, what they did they went back on a slightly different route. I think, you know instead of doing big diversions I think they, they cut a lot of corners off you know and I think we took our own course more or less back rather, rather than follow the course we were given in there.
MC: So, this brings us into April ’44 and then you started, you know, ops to places like Toulouse, you know.
RP: Well, Toulouse. That was, that was an easy one, wasn’t it? France, I think, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Toulouse. And then, then you did Aachen which was —
RP: Yeah. I mean, they called those, you know just a, they called them a piece of cake. That was the term.
MC: I can’t imagine any of these operations being a piece of cake.
RP: Well, no. a piece of cake. Yeah.
MC: No. No. No.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And obviously we were getting close to the Normandy invasion time in, in April. We’re talking about April, May so you were actually, you did an op to Paris. I mean obviously some of these would have been the marshalling yards, wouldn’t they?
RP: Yeah.
MC: La Chappelle. Can you remember much about these?
RP: No. Well, they were [laughs] they were they were only about four or five hour trips, weren’t they?
MC: Yeah. You’re right. Yeah, of course.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Your trips. Relatively speaking.
RP: We called, we called those a piece of cake.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. La Chappelle and Paris were four and a half hours.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Then Brunswick you did.
RP: Yeah.
MC: That’s a —
RP: Yeah
MC: Reasonably long trip to Brunswick. Schweinfurt.
RP: Yeah. That’s a bit farther. Yeah.
MC: Eight and a half hours, yeah.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And a couple of trips to Bordeaux. A couple of raids to Bordeaux.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Not much about those though. They were fairly, the French trips over there. I mean, I mean you when we talk about them I mean they were Bordeaux you’ve got eight hours and seven hour trips.
RP: Yeah. Quite a long distance.
MC: A fair way down, isn’t it? Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And then what, what were at Bordeaux? What was it you were bombing at Bordeaux? Do you know? Can you remember? I mean it says St Médard —
RP: It was what?
MC: St Médard.
RP: Saint. Saint. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think it was a German like sea traffic I think. I think it was probably to do with the German sea transport. You know, for them coming over here. You know. If, if they thought that the Germans were preparing like for, for a mass of sort of Army people to come over in sea transport. We would be sent out to where it was being, where it was being, you know, where it was being assembled together and go out and bomb the place, you know. To prevent, to prevent them being able to come over here. Yeah.
MC: So, your tour completed with a raid to Toulouse again.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So obviously—
RP: Toulouse.
MC: Yeah. I’m not sure. What would b at Toulouse? Can you remember what Toulouse was?
RP: I don’t know. I think it was mostly —
MC: Would it have been aircraft? No. It wouldn’t have been an aircraft factory. It might have been an aircraft factory. So that completed your tour.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, from there, so that was, that was you finished your flying with Mike Beetham.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And then you were posted out from 50 Squadron then.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Where did you go then? You went [pause] So you would have gone to 17 OTU.
RP: Silverstone.
MC: Silverstone, yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Near home.
MC: Yeah. Near home. Of course. Yeah. you had been —
RP: That was only a bike ride away.
MC: Yeah. It’s just down the road. So you were instructing there were you?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: You were instructing there.
RP: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I used to sit, I used to sit with a student. There’d be, there’d be a pilot, a student pilot and then there’d be a, then there’d be a you know a pilot with him you know to to assess him like and also there’d be his wireless operator and I would sit next to him and I’d be checking to make sure. Going through everything with the, with the wireless operator. You know, just to make sure that he was doing his job properly.
MC: So where was Turweston?
RP: Turweston? It was about two fields away from from from Silverstone.
MC: Oh, I see. So it was a satellite of Silverstone.
RP: It was a satellite.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, you flew out from Turweston.
RP: Yeah, it was, yeah, quite near Brackley.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So you were, were there for, for —
RP: I was there about a year, I think
MC: Yeah.
RP: I used, I used to bike home from there.
MC: Did you?
RP: Yeah.
MC: How far was that then? How far is it there from —
RP: It would be about, it would be about fourteen miles to Northampton probably. Then probably fourteen miles you know, and fourteen, fourteen miles probably from Northampton. Northampton to Kettering.
MC: Yeah. So that was, you were fit in those days, Reg.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: You were fit in those days, Reg.
RP: Yeah. But the thing is you see there was hardly any traffic on the roads you see. There was very little traffic on the roads during the war.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Because sometimes when I, when I was coming back, when I was, if I’d been home at Kettering when I was on my way back to Turweston or or Silverstone. Once I got, once I got past Northampton I’d, I’d meet quite a few WAAFs on bikes. They’d have been staying in Northampton. They were on their way back you see and then you’d team up with them and you’d say, ‘Hello girls.’ You’d say, ‘Where, where are you? Turweston or Silverstone?’ And they’d perhaps say, some would say Silverstone. Some would say Turweston and you’d perhaps ride up the road four abreast, you know. On bikes because you, there wouldn’t be any, there wouldn’t be any traffic, you know. Especially, especially between eight and 9 o’clock in the morning. Amazing isn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So did you get friendly with any of those WAAFs, Reg?
RP: And the road now is terrible, isn’t it?
MC: Did you get friendly with any of those WAAFs?
RP: No. No. [Laughs] No. No. No, I was already, I was already very friendly with Freda so, you know, up in Lincoln. Yeah.
MC: So, you were there. So, at Turweston quite a while. Until about June ’45.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. That was, so as the war ended.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, finishing at Turweston where did you go then? You went —
RP: Turweston [laughs] I came off flying altogether.
MC: Yeah.
RP: I came and I attended a, I attended a course up in, up near Blackpool and it was to do, it was to do with RAF equipment.
MC: Oh yeah. Number 1 Air Transport Depot, was that?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Finished.
MC: So you flew out to Castel Benito.
RP: Yeah.
MC: In a Liberator of all things.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: That was, and then from there to, oh you had, you say you were flying out to Persia then, was it? India.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Oh, you went out to India. So, I see where. I see, so you joined, you were a passenger on a Liberator to Benito, Castel Benito to Almaza. Almaza Shaibah. Mauripur, India. So that was a long trip wasn’t it?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Out there.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Flying out there in a Dakota to — so you finished up in —
RP: Rangoon.
RP: Rangoon.
RP: Yeah.
MC: So, what were doing at Rangoon?
RP: We were, we were dispersing of RAF equipment. Or, or dealing with it. Whether, whether it could be, whether, you know, whether it could be, if it was worth salvaging like. If it, if it was needing work doing to it and it was reasonable, you know they, it was, it was repaired like. But if the, if the work needed on it was, you know was quite a lot it was, it was scrapped. The material was scrapped. I mean they could be like even a car like, you know that, or RAF vehicles that, you know that if, if little, if little or nothing more or less wanted doing to it the, the all the, all the RAF workmen you know, the skilled electricians and car maintenance people they’d put it right but if they decided that it was too much work wanted involving it was just, it was just pulverised and scrapped. Just pulled apart. There was a big building there and, in Rangoon and you know with the sort of a stone floor and and cars and things were pulled to pieces there. You know, the Burmese, Burmese local people were employed, you know to just break everything up as scrap metal. You know it’s. You know, it was, it was proper hit and miss some of them.
MC: So, what were conditions like up there?
RP: Oh [laughs] it was, the temperature a hundred degrees.
MC: Monsoon weather.
RP: The temperature. Yeah. Hundred degrees. Yeah. But the thing was there was some lovely, there was some lakes just on the outskirts of Rangoon and they were lovely great big lakes. You could, you could hardly see over the other side of them, you know and for swimming the water was sort of lukewarm. You know. It was lovely there.
MC: So you obviously not a very healthy climate out there and the drains and stuff like that you know. Once the monsoons came on.
RP: Yeah. It was very very hot and sticky at nights. That’s the only thing as well. You know, for sleeping you only, you only wanted a sheet over you in your [pause] We used to have a bed but with a netted tent all over us. You know. So we used to pull it and you’d get in and you’d draw your curtains so you were, you were off the floor and, but the only thing is we were we were in a bombed building.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And the window frames had all been removed you know so there was only like a brick opening and the blooming bats used to come in there. The bats used to fly straight in and across the other room. If you weren’t careful they’d hit one of the mosquito nets.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And somebody would have a blooming bat in their mosquito nets.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You mentioned about walking along the pavement sometimes during the monsoon weather when the drains —
RP: Oh, that was terrible.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Well, the sewers. The sewers were underneath the paths.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RP: And what they did, they just, in the streets they just removed a paving slab so you saw the sewers were running underneath and that’s where people used to sit down there and do their business. And you actually, you actually walked, walked by them while they were doing it. Yeah. Yeah. It was shocking really.
MC: So, how long were you in Rangoon then for?
RP: I should think from, I should think about eight months I think. Up to about August, was it?
MC: Oh, you came back in June ’46.
RP: Yeah.
MC: It looks like it.
RP: We were there for Christmas.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RP: I think we were in Karachi to start off with. In India, to start with and then, then, then they moved me to Burma and Rangoon.
MC: Yeah. So, you don’t, how did you get back to the UK? Did you fly back?
RP: No. Boat.
MC: Oh, you came back by boat.
RP: Yeah. Thirty days.
MC: Oh [laughs]
RP: Thirty days. Yeah.
MC: Can you remember what the boat was called?
RP: The Orduna.
MC: Oh right.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Was it a liner or what was it?
RP: Well, there was no luxury on there at all. There was no, there was no, there was no place on the ship where you could go and get a cup of tea. Where you, where you could go and buy a cup of tea anywhere. Nothing like that at all. There was no, no sergeant’s mess or nothing on there but but but but what they, what they did do someone, someone on our boat deck they used to go on with a big tray and come back with about a dozen mugs of tea. I think what they used to go down in the —
MC: To the galley.
RP: Bottom of the boat sort of thing. You know, where the, where there must be some cooks down there I suppose, you know perhaps cooking. Cooking meals for the crew sort of thing down there but we used to have some fun there though. We had, we had a lot of, we had a lot of ladies on the boat with us and they’d be, they’d be WAAFs and nurses and, and they were all going back to England you see like, like we were and, and when you got up on the front of the ship, right at the very front facing forward down on the right hand side, down the right hand side you’d have, you’d have toilets there. Ladies’ toilets. On the left hand side you’d have the men’s toilets there and above, high up facing, facing the front of the ship, you know, the bow of the ship you could, you could see the front of the ship like and you could see the toilets that side and that side and you could see, you could see the water going by on that side and that side so when, when anybody went to the toilets and flushed the toilet, you know especially when the ship was, when the ship was stationary as it was it used, it used to stop about, it stopped about six times. You’d see, you’d see a couple of ladies walk by and you’d say, ‘Good Morning,’ to them. ‘Good morning,’ and they’d go in to the ladies’ toilet you see. And then [laughs] and then actually before they came out you’d see a disturbance in the sea and you’d see these sausages come up by the side of the boat you see. And and when these, when these nurses came out we all went, ‘Hurray.’ They were all going to clap like that. But they looked back at us and they waved at us but they’d got no idea. They’d got no idea what it was all about. It was amazing. And as I say we were thirty days on the boat and we were never allowed off once. You know, I mean it stopped. It stopped at two or three places, you know even in Africa like coming back. It pulled in there you know and there was a bit of, a bit of goings on like there but we, but we weren’t alllowed off the boat. Yeah.
MC: So having got back to the UK you were demobbed straight away.
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah. We went through. Went through everything there. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Got your suit.
RP: I even I even got myself a suit. You know.
MC: Yeah. You got a suit.
RP: While I was there.
RP: You could either, you could either draw the money to buy a suit with. You know, they give us some money or there was loads of clothing there. You could just go and help yourself.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: You know, and of course, you had to sign for everything and -
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Because you were a warrant officer then, weren’t you?
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: You were a warrant officer.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: So, I was getting, I was getting nearly a pound a day you see.
MC: Yeah
RP: As a warrant officer. About eighty and six or something like that a day. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: On there. I was able. In Rangoon, you see you, you couldn’t spend anything. There was nothing to spend it on in there. There was no, there was no shops. Well, if there was there were only a little tin, tin buildings like. There were no proper shops in Rangoon at all.
MC: Yeah. So I mean in that case you came back obviously what sort of job did you, did you have a job waiting for you?
RP: No. No. I didn’t. No.
MC: So you got a job.
RP: I I applied for Timpsons, the engineering.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know, and got a job. Got a job there in, in engineering, you know.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Given, give us easy work to start with until you put on machinery.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And then you learned as you, as you went along.
MC: What sort of machinery was that?
RP: Drill. Drilling.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RP: Drilling. Yeah. And you know, to start off with you had, you had work that wasn’t very particular you know. You know, for being correct like but but later, later in engineering and working you were working to a thousandth of an inch.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know.
MC: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So you, I mean when you came back during, came out the air force you’d be twenty three then I suppose.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You’d be about twenty three. So that’s when. When, so when did you get married? When did you meet your wife?
RP: Do you know.
MC: Was that after the war or before.
RP: No. I think [pause] I think, I think I was married before. Before I went abroad.
MC: Oh right.
RP: To to to you know up at, up in Lincoln.
MC: So, you got married in Lincoln, did you?
RP: No. didn’t get married in Lincoln. We got married in —
MC: Is that where you met her?
RP: That’s where I met her. Yeah. Yeah. She was, she was in the Command Supply Depot in Lincoln. At the Command Supply Depot they supplied all the RAF airfields in the Lincoln area with food and, and we, we at nights we in this pub we were in down there. She used to tell us about all the, all the different food they’d had in and warning us that for the next two or three days we were going to have this, we were going to have this. Rabbit and all that sort of thing, you know and or or a bit of chicken here and there or, yeah she could let us know what food we’d be expecting on there.
MC: So, you met her while you were at Skellingthorpe then.
RP: At Skellingthorpe, yeah.
MC: Oh right.
RP: Yeah. On there.
MC: And you got married. Did you get married after you’d finished your tour or during your tour?
RP: No. No. I got, I got married while I was still in the Air Force because I think, I think I was married when I went abroad.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. I think. I think I was married when I went abroad because I think because I think you know when she, when she got demobbed I think she came to live in Kettering. You know. Down —
MC: While you was —
RP: With my parents. Yeah. Yeah, because her dad was, her dad was, was an ex-Naval chap you know and and I’m not sure, I’m not sure whether whether she had a mother and father. You know. The two of them were living together because I think he he was an ex-Naval chap on there.
MC: Yeah. So, did you stay in engineering the rest of your working life?
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Or connected with engineering, yeah. Even, you see I went to Witfield, Hodgson and Brough. Then I went to Wicksteeds, you know and [pause] I’m trying to think but then [pause] Oh that’s right. Whitfield, Hodgson and Brough, I was a charge hand there on one section and I I had about seven blokes working on my drilling section with the, you know all the drilling. But we were making shoe, making shoe machinery. It was all being exported. Mostly to China. Nearly all, all the machines were, we were making were going to China. So, you quite see why, why, you know we got a lot of stuff coming back from China in there.
MC: When you came back after the war, Reg in to Civvy Street did, did you talk about your RAF service? The raids you did. Were people interested?
RP: Yeah. Yeah. People were quite interested in in where you were especially when I said I was in, in Rangoon because in Rangoon the temperature used to go up to a hundred degrees there.
MC: I mean, you’d just, you just done a full tour of operations during the war. I mean, did, was the reaction of people. Did you talk to people about those operations? The bombing of Germany etcetera after the war.
RP: Yeah. Oh yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean some of the raids I mean, I mean we lost about fifty, sixty aircraft you know. Ad you got, you got back to your hut at night and you found out there was about three or four beds in your hut empty.
MC: Yeah.
RP: You know. They just never came back.
MC: Yeah. I’m just wondering about the reaction of the civilians. Civilian life. Once you went back in to civilian life.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Their reaction to, to the war.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You know, what they thought about you being in Bomber Command and that.
RP: Oh, I think, I think, you know when I came home on leave you know the, because I was a, I flew during the war you see I think people, people wanted to, wanted to hear what you’d been up to and all that sort of thing. And quite interested because at night you see when it was getting dusk people used to, used to see the Lancasters going over, you know. Another one there, another one there, another one there and they’d be passing over Kettering perhaps for about seven or eight minutes like, you know. And, and then, and what you used to hear, the elderly women used to say, they used to say, ‘Somebody’s going to get it tonight.’ That’s what they used to say. You know, when they saw all these Lancasters going out they knew they were on their way carrying a load of bombs.
MC: Can you remember who your Squadron CO was?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Who was your Squadron commanding officer?
RP: Who was —?
MC: Your Squadron commanding officer.
RP: Who? Who was it?
MC: Yeah. Can you remember?
RP: I wouldn’t really know.
MC: No.
RP: I don’t remember the name. No.
MC: Yeah.
RP: But my, my pilot was Michael Beetham and he stayed in the Air Force and he became Marshall of the Royal Air Force.
MC: You don’t get any higher than that.
RP: Sir Michael Beetham.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: You don’t get any higher than that.
RP: Yeah. I mean, we just, we just called him Mike [laughs] Yeah.
MC: The Squadron reunions were, how early did you get [pause], did you go to the first ones in ’46? When did you get involved in the Squadron Associations?
RP: We haven’t had, we haven’t had many Squadron reunions at all.
MC: Well, I mean you’ve had the reunion every year because the first, can you remember when you first got involved with the Squadron’s Association?
RP: No. I’ve never. I’ve never been really deeply associated with it, you know but —
[recording paused]
MC: So, when you come up for the reunions each year you used to go up to the dancing in Lincoln.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Meeting. You were reunited with a lot of your old friends.
RP: Yeah.
MC: And, of course, Sir Michael would have been there as well.
RP: That’s right. He used to come. He used to come along with his wife you see. Yeah. There. I don’t, I don’t know what the building was. It was, it was one of those big domed buildings.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Right in the middle of Lincoln. A big hall there.
MC: Yeah. I think that was the Assembly Rooms.
RP: Yeah.
MC: What they know as the Assembly Rooms. So going, looking back on your flying career, Reg. How did you feel about the, the, what you did? You know the —
RP: What the bombing? Yeah. Well, I mean as for, as for dropping the bombs and things we, we were only, we could, we couldn’t, we couldn’t wait to get rid of them. The loads you know. Once the, once the, we didn’t really care, we didn’t really care who they hit you know as long, as long as they, as long as they got them out of the aircraft because I mean what are, what are you going to be? About what, eight thousand tonnes of bombs in the aircraft you know. You were always, you were always afraid somebody’s going to hit you.
MC: And what about, I mean obviously you didn’t know, you can’t remember your Squadron commander or the station commander but people like Harris. Arthur Harris.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Bomber Harris.
RP: They called him Butch, didn’t they?
MC: Yeah. Butch Harris.
RP: Butch. Butcher Harris.
MC: Yeah. Do you think he was a good man? A good figure?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Do you think he was a good man for Bomber Command?
RP: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he was respected, I think. you know. Yeah.
MC: And at the time did you have any thoughts about Churchill. People like Churchill and —
RP: Who? Churchill?
MC: Churchill.
RP: Not, not really. No.
MC: Without putting words in your mouth do you think you were let down after the war? No recognition for what you did.
RP: Well, well I suppose what it was, what it was I suppose we were so pleased to get, to get out. To get into civilian life, I think. I mean, that’s all, that’s all we, we thought about, you know.
MC: Of course.
RP: And about if we hadn’t got a job, you know what, you know what work we were going to do. I mean, I mean, I was married when I was still in the forces you see. At the very end. So, I mean, I had to, I had to try and save me cash a bit for when I came out from there. But it was certainly [pause] I think, I think to be able, to be able to travel, to you, know to Rangoon, you know. Fly there, you know stopping at various, various places on the way I think, I think people nowadays I think would give their right arm to do it because we, you know we, the first flight from England to near the Mediterranean you know the plane stopped at some place right near the, a great big inland lake you know in Tunisia or somewhere, you know. Marvellous.
MC: Yeah.
RP: And then I think from then on I think I went, I went to, one place I think is in there where we landed there [pause] and it was the, something like the Heliopolis Palace Hotel or something like that.
MC: Oh right.
RP: Stayed.
MC: Yeah, yeah. Because you stopped off at Persia on the way, didn’t you? Persia yeah.
RP: It was what?
MC: You stopped off at Cairo and Persia.
RP: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean once I, once I got out of bed in this hotel and opened the curtains and the blooming [pause] blooming pyramids, the pyramids were just, just outside the door. You know.
MC: Yeah. Obviously, that was Cairo. Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Amazing. I mean, I was, I was in bed. I was in bed in the morning and a lady come along and started cleaning all round the bed and all that when I was still in bed. You know. I was awake fortunately as they cleared, you know cleaned the toilet and all that sort of thing before I could get out of bed even [pause] Yeah.
MC: Did you go back to Germany after the war at all?
RP: No. No. Never. Never been back there. No. No. I don’t know how many places, how many places I bombed in Germany but most of it was more or less the same place I suppose.
MC: Well, Reg, thank you very much for this interview. It’s been, you’ve given me some good stories.
RP: Hmmn.
MC: I appreciate you taking time out to tell us about your RAF experiences and thank you very much.
RP: Well, it’s, it’s a thing. It’s a thing you remember and you know, well you just, you’re just pleased you were fortunate in doing what you did, you know. You know, jumping out of aeroplanes and things.
MC: And surviving.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Well, thank you, Reg.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Thank you.
[recording paused]
MC: You say there was one thing that really annoyed you.
RP: Yeah. And you used to, you used to, when we bombed, when we bombed the cities. Berlin and places like that we used to have a master of ceremonies. He was, he was, he was the, he’d be somebody, he’d be very high-ranking officer that would be, that would be flying with you and he’d be shouting out instructions like a —
MC: Master bomber.
RP: Master bomber. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And you say it annoyed you. Why was that?
RP: Well, well this, this one, this one was, they used to drop, they used to drop red TIs and green TIs on the city and they’d say, and they’d say you know, ‘Don’t aim at the reds. Hit the greens. Hit the greens.’ You see. They’d be telling you which ones to aim for you see but one particular night this, this, they’d been dropping these markers down for us and one of them, this chap was yelling out which ones of us to bomb. Telling us not, not to aim, not to aim at the greens and then he was yelling out, ‘Hit the f’ing reds,’ you see. But he didn’t say f’ing. He said, ‘Hit the f’ing reds. Hit them f’ing reds. ‘And he was yelling that out like. And I thought to myself good God I thought to myself I hope nobody hears him [ laughs] you know. But but when I got back we were debriefed after the raid. I said, I said, ‘That master bomber —’ I said, ‘That was yelling all those instructions about the bombing,’ I said, ‘Who was it? Who was it?’ Anyhow, and they said ‘Oh, oh, that was, that was air commodore —’ so and so and so and so. I said, ‘An air commodore?’ You see. And I said to her, I said, ‘If you’d have heard his language on there.’ And that surprised me, you know. Hit the f’ing so and so, don’t hit the f’ing so and sos, hit the f’ing so and so’s but he was using, was using the term all the time, you know. It’s, and it was the thing when you back in to your bed at night you know you think about that. You think it’s not, it’s, you know, if he’s in a job like there learning people you know about things, I mean, it’s not a very good you know it’s, he's not setting a very good example, is he? Not really. Being an air commodore as well on there. Amazing.
[recording paused]
RP: The weather was very bad you see. If the weather was, you know if the weather weren’t, you know, could they, they used to drop coloured markers down, you know for you to bomb. And, and do you know one night, one night we were on the one of the Berlin raids. It was, there was no, no fog or mist about and I think there was a lot of searchlights and and the, you know you could see, you could see the ground and the roads and the buildings. You could see them so plain that when, when we flew up, when we flew up this great big road in, in [pause] my memory. I was going to say Blackpool [laughs] in Berlin, when we flew up this great big road. It was a wide road with trees on the sides of it and by the sides of it was, was lovely houses. And they had trees in front as well but but they all seemed to have big back gardens. Big wide gardens like. But this big main road though that went up the road like with these lovely big houses, as we flew up this road we followed a, we must have followed a Lancaster that was dropping bombs all the way along there. And when you looked down you saw this lovely house, you know with trees in front of it and lovely, lovely gardens at the back of it, all of a sudden you these big bombs going and you see this whole house go up in, you know in —
MC: So what sort of altitude would you have been at then?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: What sort of altitude would you have been at?
RP: We’d be fairly high.
MC: But you could still see. Make out the road and the houses.
RP: Yeah. Oh yeah. We couldn’t have been, we couldn’t have been more than about, probably about eight thousand feet, I think. Something like that. I bet we weren’t even ten thousand feet. Yeah. Because normally, you see, normally on most raids we used to fly at twenty thousand feet. You know, quite high up. But you wouldn’t see much at all there. But this one, I think, I think what it was it was such a clear night I think Mike Beetham, you know he was perhaps the same as me. He just perhaps wanted to see all the lovely area. All the lovely houses and things down there. Amazing isn’t it? So —
MC: So, at twenty thousand feet was it, it was fairly cold.
RP: Twenty. Yeah, oh yeah [laughs] yeah. Well [laughs] yeah, it yeah it would be about minus four or something you know it wouldn’t have been, wouldn’t be —
MC: Did you have any heating?
RP: Hmnn?
MC: You didn’t have any heating?
RP: Oh yeah. We had heating. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, ‘cause, ‘cause they the gunners used to say to me, ‘Wireless op, have you turned that heat down,’ you know and I, they’d say, ‘For God’s sake, turn it up,’ you see. So, I’d turn it up but the navigator next to me, he tapped me on my leg and went [sigh] He’d say, ‘Turn it down.’ Because I was I suppose it was, I suppose it blows hot air over over certain positions you see doesn’t it? And we just, just got together over it and there.
MC: So as a wireless op could you see out at all apart from the astrodome?
RP: I couldn’t. No. I had a little window by the side of me and that that looked out on the port, on the port engines and I could see the, I could see the flames coming out the, the exhausts on there. On there. But, but what I had, what I had to do a lot for the navigator I had to get in the astrodome and and give him a lot of advice from the astrodome. I’d tell him what stars I could see, you see to start with. Then I had to get a, he’d say can he get me, can he get me a shot on the on the such and such a star. I forget what it was called. It was, it was something I had to, the term. It was something I could along and I could take a shot of this. I could take a shot of this star. This particular star. He he used to say what stars can you see? And I said [unclear] Dubhe, Polaris. You know. And he’d say, ‘Dubhe. Get get me a shot on, get me a shot on Dubhe.’ You see. Then I’ll come along and I’d you know I’d say, tell the pilot, keep the plane steady. Right. Ok. And I’d take his shot and give it to him and he had a, he had equipment where he could plot his position from it.
MC: So what equipment were you using to take the shot?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: What were you using?
RP: I don’t know. It was a [pause] I’m trying to think. I forget what the term was.
MC: A navigation aid. Yeah.
RP: Yeah. I forget what it was called on there. But he used to ask me what stars I could see to start with. I reeled one or two off with you know. As long as I got the right, as long as I got the right star though. That was the main thing. Yeah.
MC: Got you home as well.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RP: But he, he used to say, you know we’d be getting near. We’d be going across, across the south coast like you know and we’d be flying up you know, coming up on the right hand side of London or something like that and, and all of a sudden I used to have broadcasts you see on the, on the radio and I’d get a, I’d get a message and it just and it just said cancel, ‘Cancel. Cancel —’ you know, ‘Landing at Skellingthorpe.’ And it’s got land and he’d give you, give you another, give you another base like, you know. This one would perhaps be in in Yorkshire, you know. Up in Yorkshire. A place up there. Melbourne or something used to land at up there. Melbourne or Pocklington. Pocklington and Melbourne and they’d give us, and they’d give us instructions to land there because they had a thing at Melbourne I think it is. There’s a damned big landing area up there. A big, like a big tarmac, tarmac aerodrome up there. Yeah and, and we finished up in Yorkshire instead of Lincolnshire.
MC: So your navigator never got you lost at all.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Your navigator never got you lost at all.
RP: He —
MC: He was a good navigator. Never got you lost.
RP: Never got?
MC: Did he ever get you lost?
RP: Oh no.
MC: No. He was good.
RP: He was, he was more of an elderly bloke Frank was you know. Well elderly. He’d be, he’d be probably his late twenties I think [laughs]
MC: That was Frank Swinyard.
RP: Swinyard. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Your bomb aimer was Les, wasn’t he? Was your bomb aimer Les?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: Les Bartlett was your bomb aimer
RP: Les Bartlett was the bomb aimer. Yeah. Yeah. And Fred, Fred our rear gunner. Fred Ball.
MC: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. And there. We all pitched in and made, made the best of it really. Les Bartlett. Les was a lady’s man [laughs]. Yeah. I went out quite a bit with Les, you know at nights. You know.
MC: So you were a ladies man yourself.
RP: Well, I never got round to that. No. No. Still —
MC: So, where, where when you used to go out with Les whereabouts did you from Skellingthorpe. Did you go in to Lincoln?
RP: We’d always go into Lincoln. Yeah. Yeah, because we had we had bikes there you see and we used to bike into Lincoln yeah, there. But the, but the the ACS girls where I met, where I my met my first wife there you see. They, the Command Supply Depot. It was in Lincoln and and they, and they, they provided the food for all the, all the airfields in the Lincolnshire area.
MC: Yeah. You said that.
RP: Amazing.
MC: So when you went out with Les whereabout. Can you remember any of the places you used to go?
RP: What in Lincoln?
MC: Yeah.
RP: No. We, we used to go, we used to go in a little pub along by the river.
MC: Oh right.
RP: On there. There, you know it was, yeah we, we more or less went in the same pub every, every night in there. But, but once, once I met [Ena] though there you know we, well we met her in that pub and from then on we kept on. It was a little, it was a little pub near the near the river in Lincoln. But I mean Lincoln was, it was all airmen wasn’t it? I mean there was about half a dozen aerodromes.
MC: And pubs.
RP: Hmmn?
MC: There was a lot of pubs.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, you’d know wouldn’t you? Yeah. No. I thought, I thought one, I got to know I got to know some Lincoln people and [pause] I can’t even remember their name now but I know, I know they lived in one of those little side streets in Lincoln next to a fish and chip shop. Next to a fish and chip shop because when, when I got to know them quite well if I got my coat wet what they used to do they used to go and put it on a clothes horse and put it up against the wall in the front room because on the other side of the wall was the fish and chip, the fish and chip place where they cook all the things. So that wall was like a big radiator. Yeah. And the son now, he’s something to do with the Lincoln City Council. You know. He’s well up in the Lincoln City Council there. But I’m blowed if I, I’m blowed if I remember the names. Terrible isn’t it?
MC: So when did you start the painting?
RP: Hmmn?
MC: When did you start the painting? Have you always done the paintings?
RP: Yeah.
MC: Of Lancasters, etcetera.
RP: Yeah. I’ve always liked a bit of painting, yeah but —
MC: That was, you didn’t do any painting during the war.
RP: No. Oh no. Not, not while, not whilst, not while I was in the Air Force. No. No. Somewhere in this house I’ve got a stack of photos. But I tried to find them, you know before you came here. I never, never did find them.
MC: Yeah. I think we’ll say, we’ll wind up now Reg, and thank you very much -
RP: Yeah.
MC: For the additional stories and, and it’s great. This this will be in the Digital Archives.
RP: Yeah.
MC: Thank you, Reg.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Reg Payne. Two
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APayneR170827
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
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Mike Connock
Date
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2017-08-25
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eng
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Pending review
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Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Wiltshire
France--Toulouse
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Reg Payne was born in Kettering in 1923. He left school at the age of fourteen and just before he was eighteen he volunteered to join the RAF. He did his basic training at Blackpool learning Morse Code in the tram sheds. From there he did his radio training at RAF Yatesbury flying in DH Dragon Rapides, and at RAF Stormy Down for gunnery training. He joined his crew at 14 OTU and they eventually joined 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe flying Lancasters. He and his crews first three operations were to Berlin, and on their fourth operation to Leipzig their aircraft was damaged by a JU88 night fighter and they were forced to land at RAF Wittering short of fuel. During a fighter affiliation with a Spitfire over the North Sea with some additional crew members on board, after their second exercise, one of the engines caught fire, and the crew were ordered to abandon the aircraft. Unfortunately, some of the crew members were lost when the aircraft crashed. His last operation was to Toulouse, and he became an instructor with 17 OTU at RAF Silverstone. When he finished flying he did a course in Blackpool at number 1 Air Transport Depot, was posted to India where he spent the remainder of his career disposing of RAF equipment.
Format
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01:37:27 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
14 OTU
17 OTU
50 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
Ju 88
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operational Training Unit
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Yatesbury
Spitfire
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/857/11099/AHarrisH180520.1.mp3
ab0d1ec4ffa3f3bf04f44f9af3096be4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harris, Henry
H Harris
Henry Kroczynski
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Henry Harris (b. 1926).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: I’m going to sit you down.
HH: Yeah. There’s —
JH: Do you want me to —
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Henry Harris. The interview is taking place at the home of Mr Harris In North Hykeham, Lincoln on 19th of May 2018. Also in attendance is Mrs Jean Harris.
HH: I’d better watch —
MC: Ok.
HH: I’ve put it the right way.
MC: Let’s start from the beginning.
JH: Yes, start —
MC: Start from the beginning, Henry. When? Tell me when and where you were born.
HH: I was born in in Poznan, Poland on 26 November 1926.
MC: Yeah.
JH: And your parents?
MC: And your parents? What, what did they do?
HH: Well, my, my father he was a very, very smart gentleman because the times at that time were not very prosperous all over the world as you, you will know. But he managed. He had his own business. It was a small factory that was actually let to him from, from his family and he was making furniture. Furniture. You know, every day sort of furniture but a part of it, I would say about half, half of the factory it wasn’t very big I think there was about eleven or twelve gentlemen running that part of it, and it was specialised for antique furniture. We could if, if, if it was allowed we could reproduce it or we could repair it. But if it was reproduced and it was made by some big concern obviously we had to, that’s what my dad would be doing.
MC: Yes.
HH: He would have to do the agreement whether they would allow us to do it or not.
MC: Yeah.
HH: I think that that little factory had a good name because they were always working.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Always working. My dad spoke nine languages. Oh, yes. He could travel all over the world and he did. And he, he got actually in, he got the business by getting to know the type of people who would have that furniture which wouldn’t be easy to do. Especially in South America where most, most of the work was coming actually. From South America. So, well that’s all I can tell you about the factory.
MC: What about your early school years? Can you remember? What age did you go to start school?
HH: Well, I went to school when I was four year old. I insisted that I went for the first time to the school on my own. I didn’t want either my father, my father was out of the country in any case but my mother she wanted and she more or less insisted, but I stood my ground and I got it and I went on my own.
JH: What did your mother do for a living?
HH: She was a stenographer.
MC: Oh, was she? Yeah.
HH: Yes.
MC: A stenographer.
HH: Well, she was very, very busy because she was Gregg’s. I don’t know whether you know Gregg stenography. It’s not like Pitman’s. Gregg stenography differs that you only record the sound. You don’t have to speak the language. As long as you can record the sound. The sound is recorded and that’s it and you can write it. You can write the sound which is extremely quick and it’s any language. So, she was in and out the country.
MC: Oh, as well. Yeah. Oh right.
HH: Right.
JH: They had maids there to help them.
MC: Oh yeah.
HH: Well, yeah well I’ve got to get to that bit now. My mother’s family, they had like in those days it was actually I would call it a coach house because it was on the, almost on the border between Germany and Poland and it was on the main thoroughfare. You wouldn’t actually call it a road but it was the only road through with coaches and, and horses and so on. And what they had was, it was like a hotel where the people could stay the night if they wanted. Change the horses and feed the horses and so on. That sort of a business which now doesn’t exist obviously. But they were very good. Now, my, my mother’s mother she adopted twenty. Adopted twenty girls who had no, no —
JH: Parents.
HH: Parents or anything like that, and they were like in a orphanage and she adopted them in to our name or in to their name into the family. And they were actually helping to run the whole business. They were very smart girls. Some of them were very good cooks. They could, you know my grandmother was extremely happy with them. Now, my grandfather on my mother’s side he was, he was a giant. He was over six foot tall. Huge. He would, he would hardly get through that door there. And do you know what his hobby was? He used to buy old railway sleepers that were made out of hard wood and so on just to chop and chop them with a big huge axe and so on. That was his hobby.
MC: What? Just for firewood.
HH: He didn’t need the firewood. Obviously, they did burn it. Yeah. Obviously, they did. But he didn’t have to. I mean he could buy it. They were very wealthy people.
MC: Yeah.
HH: So, anyhow so that now when my mother married my — is it all right?
MC: Yeah.
HH: When my mother married her mum gave her two of those girls to go with her. So they were then our maids in, in our household. Now, this was very advantageous because my father was hardly ever at home. My mother was in and out, you know. Out of one country to another and so on. Those girls could run the house the way my mum wanted and she was very strict. Very strict. When she, when she turned, returned back from her many escapades, my father was calling. She would go around the picture frames and [pause] see if there is any dust on it.
MC: Dust on them. Yeah.
HH: So there was nothing get away and the girls knew it and the household ran fantastic.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Right. Now —
MC: So they looked after you during those periods when your parents were away, did they?
HH: Oh yeah.
MC: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Harry, I think it might be a good idea at the moment if you talk about that very first girlfriend. When you went to the house.
HH: Oh yeah.
JH: And it was that officer.
MC: I was just going to say —
JH: Oh.
MC: Yeah. It’s ok.
JH: Yeah.
MC: So this is a girlfriend.
JH: Yeah.
MC: And how old were you?
HH: Well, wait a minute. I was four year old then.
JH: Oh sorry.
HH: Ok.
JH: I shouldn’t have done that.
MC: So, did you, did you enjoy the school? Your time at school?
HH: Yes, I did. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: I was four year old but they found out when I started at school that to put me in to the, because that school had six years, so there were six, six classes, and they found out when I first started that I would be wasting my time in the first school because I could already read. I could write because my brother who was eighteen months older than me when he was doing his homework I was with him and he was teaching me what he knew. So no good me going in to when he was in, in he would be then there for, he would be already in six. In the last year of that school. And he knew all that I was going to learn and I knew it as well. So there was no good me being in number one class, you know. Not going on.
MC: No.
HH: So they put me into four. In to class four. And then I was only for a couple of months and they put me right up to fifth. Fifth class. And from the fifth class you could go in a exam which I did. Into sixth. So you wouldn’t waste because the number six class was more or less repeating the most important things of what you’ve learned in that school. And then you, you could, you could go to university if you passed which I did. So that was it. So I would be what? Four. Five.
JH: Ten.
HH: Yeah. I’d be between five and six when I was at university.
JH: Oh.
MC: Five. No.
JH: No. No. You’d be about ten because you —
HH: Oh, no. Right.
JH: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
JH: Was that when you was in Berlin? When you were at university.
HH: Yeah.
MC: So you left school at ten
JH: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Because you went to —
MC: And you went to university.
HH: Yeah.
MC: At ten year old?
HH: Yeah.
MC: Good gracious me.
HH: The university was my dad picked up because it was the only university in Europe that was international. Not owned by any of the German governments or anything like that. The only thing that you had to be able to is speak German which I could from birth because we, we were born we could speak two languages straightaway more or less. So nobody teaches us. We do.
MC: Oh fine. That’s amazing. So, so where in Germany was the, the university was in Germany, was it?
HH: Yes. Berlin.
MC: And whereabouts was this?
HH: In Berlin.
MC: Berlin.
HH: Yeah. Which was very handy because just across the border, you see. I could nip home if I wanted at the weekend no problem.
JH: Oh, did you miss out the bit about the girlfriend who frightened you off because her father was —
HH: Yeah.
MC: So how old were you then?
JH: Oh.
HH: Well, I would be —
JH: I think you’d still be about ten would you be before?
HH: I’d be about ten or eleven. Between ten and —
JH: You used to carry her books from school.
HH: Oh yeah. Well, you see my memory doesn’t go that far.
JH: Oh. Sometimes.
HH: So accurate. So, you know —
JH: Yeah. ok.
HH: How old I was. I didn’t care how old.
JH: That’s alright. That’s ok. Yeah.
MC: Fine.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: So how long were you at university then?
HH: I was there until the war broke out.
MC: Yeah.
JH: But before the university you then had that girlfriend and then you had to, and you had to leave her because when you got to her house —
HH: Yeah.
JH: There was a photograph of her father.
HH: Yeah.
JH: And he was an sos officer.
HH: SS. Very high ranking SS.
MC: Oh, so that frightened you off.
JH: Yes, frightened him off.
HH: I’d never met, I had never met him.
[unclear]
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JH: I thought that bit was quite interesting to say.
HH: I had, I had to obey all the rules of the Nazi government because I was there at the university. They could throw me out if they wanted to.
HH: Yeah.
HH: So you know I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, I was very happy to be at the university because I learned a lot there. Number one was I did find out that we had a flying club there.
MC: Oh, at the university.
HH: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
HH: So I rang my, I rang my dad because we, we were, we were brought up in this way that we would not ask our parents for something that was, you know. No. If it, if it was within, you know within, within our age and so on we knew that our parents would never say no. But we preferred to ask them first if we could do it, because obviously they had to pay for it.
MC: Yeah.
HH: So I rang home and I rang the office in the little factory because I knew there was no good ringing our house because the girls wouldn’t know anything about it in any case, and the telephonist said, ‘Well, I can’t put you to your dad because he’s not in the country.’ So I said, ‘Well, where is he?’ ‘He’s in Peru.’ So I said, ‘Well, try. Try if you can get him, if you would.’ And about an hour or so, I don’t know how long it was the phone rang and she got me through and I told him about that. You know, the university has a brilliant, I like it and so on, I said, ‘Do you know what? They’ve got an aero club. An aero club there. I would like, like to join.’ And he sort of sort of thought about it and he said, ‘Oh, so you would. You would.’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘There’s only one thing. That if you join that club you are going to learn English. You must,’ he said, ‘Because the pilot’s language is English.’ So I said, ‘Great. Yes. I’ll, I’ll see about it and —’ The professor, it was old professors that were teaching, the professor who taught me English was actually English. Not any other. No. He, he was the only professor actually English.
MC: That was good.
HH: Yeah. And I was the only pupil. So, he gave me all the time that he could. We quite often would meet after school you know because I needed somebody to talk English. I couldn’t find anybody at that time, you know. I had too many other things to learn. So anyhow it worked out. It worked out very well. And I haven’t forgotten English yet.
JH: And what was it your mother’s brother that was also a pilot.
HH: Now then —
JH: Also a pilot.
HH: You see when I joined, when I joined the club they were a little bit looking sort of devious about me because I could already fly. I had a glider pilot’s licence when I was four year old because my uncle —
JH: Oh yes.
HH: He was in the Polish forces actually and he was in the Air Force and he just used to do what the aerobatics doing.
JH: Yeah.
HH: He taught me aerobatics.
JH: Yeah.
HH: At that age.
JH: Yeah.
HH: Well, let’s put me, I would go with him in the aeroplane like.
JH: Yeah. He did.
HH: Because they were two seaters.
MC: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. You did.
HH: So I could see what he was doing and how he was doing it. Why he was doing. And what’s going to happen if you don’t do this sort of thing and so on. He put me all through that at a very very, early age. So to me it just comes naturally.
MC: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
HH: So when, I go forward now when the war broke out actually the day when the war broke out obviously I left Berlin. I went home.
MC: Did you finish your degree? Your education at the university.
HH: No.
MC: You didn’t.
HH: No. I haven’t. I haven’t finished. No. I haven’t got the diploma or anything.
MC: No. No.
HH: But it doesn’t matter. I haven’t forgotten what I learned.
MC: No.
HH: And the way I lived I tried to, to do it as much as I could. Now, the problem was when I got home my mother said, ‘You know war is going to break out any, any day. There is one train. It’s the last train that is leaving actually Poland across the, the border. You want to go to your uncle in Paris.’ So anyhow I, I obeyed my mother. I didn’t like it but you know I thought, well my mother knows best. So far she’s brought me up. So off I went.
JH: With your brother.
MC: So, there was —
HH: No. No. No.
JH: Oh.
HH: No. My brother —
JH: Oh.
HH: No. My brother is, he was actually in university. In Polish university but in Poland. In Kraków.
MC: Right.
HH: Kraków is the only university in Poland that is anything any good.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Very difficult to get in.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Very difficult. And he was the only one and when he, when he was ready to go to university they had only one place vacant to go and he had the best qualifications through the exams that they put through it, and he got it. So he was actually, when the war broke out he wasn’t in Poznan. He was in Kraków. Right. But he, don’t forget he was eighteen months older than me. He was taken in to, in to the Polish Army. So he was, as soon as the war broke out he was in the Army. Right. He never got back to, to Poznan anymore. No. He finished up actually in Africa. He was with General Anders. You must have heard of General Anders.
MC: Yes. I think I have. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Well, he joined his Army and he was actually at Monte Casino.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Now, that’s going to be another story. I’m going to tell you about that. Anyhow, so I got to my uncle and my uncle. That’s another. I don’t whether —
JH: Yeah. You can tell about that one. Yeah.
HH: Now, my uncle he was older than my, my father. I’m not sure how much older he was but anyhow he was older and he was a ballet dancer. He was in Moscow actually at the, at the school and that is when, where he met his wife actually. He didn’t know at the time that she was actually a Russian princess and they go together. They go like partners together.
MC: Dance partners.
HH: Yeah. But, but when the revolution came in Russia because she was a princess she had to flee so obviously he took her to Paris. And that’s where they stayed.
MC: So that’s where you joined them.
HH: That’s where I joined them.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Now, he was, he was actually a printer. He was. And a very keen photographer. He was printing newspapers actually in Paris.
JH: In the war? Was that in the war he was?
HH: Yeah. French papers.
JH: In the war? Oh, ok.
HH: Yeah. French —
Yes. This would have been about the —
JH: Yeah.
MC: You went to Paris before, before France was invaded.
HH: Oh, yeah. Before France, Yeah. Yes. France was still France.
MC: Yes. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
HH: So anyhow, we were sort of talking and he said, ‘You know, I can see what, what the war is going to be like and you won’t be very safe here either. It would be best if you could get yourself to England.’ And he said, ‘There is, there is an English unit just outside Paris there. Go and see them and say hello to them like,’ you know. So, anyhow and I did and of course the, the commandant there obviously first of all he asked me who I was and how old I was and I said how old I was [laughs] How old was I? I was nowhere military age or anything like that so I lied. But apparently I must have looked older.
MC: Yeah.
HH: More presentable or something you know. I must have behaved not like a kid anymore.
MC: So how old were you?
JH: Let’s see. He was about —
HH: Nine.
MC: No, you can’t have been nine.
JH: No. no. I don’t think you were nine.
MC: Nine when you went to Paris. No. You must have been older.
JH: I think you was, I think you were, well let’s work it out. Let’s think about it.
HH: [unclear]
JH: You’re ninety one now and what year would it be?
MC: It would be —
JH: Oh, it would be ’39.
MC: ’39/40.
HH: 1939 it broke out. Yeah.
JH: So he was born in ’26.
MC: Thirteen.
HH: Yeah. Ah. You put me on the, yeah. Thirteen. No, no I told them I was fifteen.
JH: And you were thirteen.
HH: Was it fifteen or sixteen? What was the, what was the age?
MC: Well, it’s usually seventeen or eighteen to join the Air Force.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: I must have said sixteen. I must admit. Anyhow —
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: He accepted that, you know and I thought well, oh great. One step, you know. And he said, ‘So you, what are you? Can you fly?’ I said, ‘Well, yes, sir. Yeah.’ So he said, ‘Stand around. Look through the window. Do you see that aeroplane there? Get in it and show me how you can fly.’
MC: Can you remember what the aeroplane was?
HH: The old French military plane. I’ve never seen anything in my bloody life, you know. So, anyhow I thought well this is it. This is either you go or you don’t go.
MC: Yeah.
HH: So you got in, you know Anyhow, I got in it. I managed to get in this bloody thing, and I managed even to start it and so on, you know. And I thought I hope you have got enough guts to do what I’m going to do to prove him.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: That I can fly this bloody thing, you know. Anyhow, I took it up as high as it would go, and it started coughing a bit so I thought I’d better give it a bit of a rest. So, anyway I turned upside down and come down about maybe two, two hundred or so many feet above the ground. Smack in front of his bloody window upside down and made sure that he saw me [laughs] Anyhow, I landed in this thing. It wasn’t actually too bad, the aircraft for its age, you know. I thought it was going to bits. The way it looked anyhow.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Anyhow, and so I got in. I got in, back in the office and saluted and so on, and he sort of looked at me and he, I mean he said to me in other words, ‘Who the bloody hell taught you to fly like this,’ you know.
JH: Yeah.
HH: And —
MC: So, this was an English squadron.
HH: Yes. Yeah.
MC: In Paris. Yeah. Would be then.
HH: And I found out that bloody aircraft belonged to him. It was his private property. So if I smashed that bloody thing I would be out.
JH: Yeah. He would have been.
HH: Anyhow —
JH: Yeah.
HH: So I got accepted actually and that, that was it and I thought oh right. And I joined the 301 Squadron.
MC: And this was in Paris. In France.
HH: That was I think that must have been the unit that actually was there.
MC: Yeah.
HH: In Paris.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Just outside there.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: That must have been. I mean I didn’t know at the time. I actually didn’t know what squadron I was in until I got to England.
MC: So what aircraft did you fly with the squadron?
HH: With, what with [pause] Defiant?
MC: Oh, no. It would have been, was it, was it the Battle?
HH: Yeah.
MC: With a three man crew.
HH: Yeah. That’s right.
MC: Yeah. The Battle.
HH: Yeah.
MC: The Fairey Battle.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
HH: All we actually did at the time we were just patrolling.
MC: Yeah.
HH: The coast, you know.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Which was and I actually I was a pilot and I thought I dropped a clanger but somehow nobody found out about it because I went a little bit too far down and the, the Germans had a boat there and I didn’t know what sort of a boat it was. Obviously, it had a flag on so I thought now it’s a military. It’s got to be military. Yeah. And I gave it a few shots like you know and then turned around and scarpered [laughs] Scarpered. And they didn’t shoot back so obviously it was probably only a fishing boat. I don’t know what it was. But that was my first. Anyhow, but I didn’t, nobody asked me what what we were doing. Just normal patrols, you know. I never told anybody but I thought I was the first one to give you a stick.
MC: So you came to England when France fell then. Or before France fell to the Germans.
HH: Oh, no. No. No. France.
MC: France fell in 1940, didn’t it?
HH: Wait a minute. The Germans occupied —
MC: Poland.
HH: Part of it. Part of France. But not the whole of it. Because I remember that the south of France.
MC: Yeah. Was Vichy.
HH: Vichy, France. Yeah. And I mean, yeah but it must have been already they must have occupied. You see I wasn’t in politics.
MC: No. No. No.
HH: I don’t want to know anything in politics.
MC: No.
HH: But I know that I was actually asked to go to south of France for to, to do a bit of a confab there with the, with the French Underground. Because what was happening you see when, when the British plane went over and there were any shot down and so on the Underground had an arrangement with the British government that they would help them in any way they can.
MC: Escape.
HH: Possibly get them back to England, you know.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Which, which they did. But there was no such agreement with the Polish Air Force so they didn’t know who they were because most of our problem none of the pilots actually spoke English.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Or French. So you know if, if they got shot down they would be in a cart, you know. So I was actually asked. I don’t know whether it was actually the British government and I think it was the Polish government. I didn’t ask questions because you see I was a volunteer so therefore they could not give me an order to do anything. They would ask me. But I would never say no and they knew it. You know, anything. Anything going. So anyhow, just so I went and I knew a little bit more about it than most people. I knew that they, they were a very tight group. They don’t even knew who each other is. Whether they are in a part, in a part or not. Nobody knew. So I went to my uncle. To Paris, and I told him what I was asked to do and he sort of looked at me you know and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’ll not be able to do it,’ you know. And he said, ‘Leave it with me.’ And I said, ‘Leave it with me? So you know anything about the underground?’
MC: Yes.
HH: So I said, well this was what was. So he said, ‘Leave it with me and you go back and get, get back safe. Safely to England.’ Which I said to him, ‘Don’t worry. I know my ways about.’ And anyhow, so and it did happen. The French Underground, obviously they twigged it that some of the pilots may not be able to speak and obviously they would say, ‘Polynese,’ and you know, so ‘Polynese’ and Polish.
MC: Yeah.
HH: It’s so they would twig. The pilots would twig that they were French and they would come to help them. Not shoot them or anything like that. So that was that. That was one of the things.
MC: So you actually worked with the French Resistance.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
HH: I didn’t. I didn’t go. My uncle did.
MC: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: I didn’t know that he was actually one of the organisers. I didn’t know that.
MC: So when did you come to England then?
HH: Pardon?
MC: When did you come to England?
HH: Straightaway.
MC: Straightaway then.
HH: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I wasn’t going to stay. Oh no. No. No. No. No.
MC: So, that would have been about 1940 then.
HH: Yeah. It would be 1940. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
MC: So you stayed with the squadron when it came to England.
HH: Yes. Yeah. I stayed at —
JH: Swinderby.
HH: Swinderby.
MC: Oh yeah. Yeah. 301. 301 Squadron were at Swinderby, weren’t they?
HH: Yes.
JH: Yes.
HH: Swinderby.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: What I didn’t like about the posting, it was alright and I was very, very happy to be in England and be safe and be something. Do something towards the situation like, you know.
JH: And he spoke. He spoke good English.
HH: Even so I wasn’t, I wasn’t really old enough to meddle with things like that and I’m shooting at people and so on, you know. It wasn’t, it wasn’t me. Not really. I wasn’t brought up that way but this was it. I was in the forces. I was in the Army and I was a volunteer so therefore what they were asking I would do it.
MC: What aircraft did you fly at Swinderby?
HH: At that time?
MC: Yeah.
HH: Well, only, only we called them the bogeys.
MC: What, the Fairey Battles?
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: The Fairy Battles.
MC: Yeah.
HH: At that time. It wasn’t until we got, until we got to Hemswell actually that I got on to, on to Wellington. And that was very interesting. I’ve never flown a twin engine.
HH: So what —
HH: But I had a chance to learn. I had a chance to learn and well I thought it was great. And the crew that I got actually if I wasn’t available to fly that aeroplane which quite often did happen they didn’t like any other pilot. And on, on one occasion when we had a bit of free time and so on and a cup of tea and a cigarette. I did smoke then [laughs] Well, just to —
JH: Everybody did.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Well, just to make it, me older you know. Fortunately I looked, I looked older when I looked in my mirror, you know, and I thought, ‘Is that you?’ Actually. Yeah. Quite often. Because situations change you, you know.
MC: Yeah. They do. Yes.
HH: I can tell you that I got shock one day because we were actually coming back [pause] I can’t remember what we are, it was Cologne actually. Anyway, Cologne or Dusseldorf. One of them things. There was a factory that needed demolishing and it was very important that. I don’t know what they were doing there. What they were making. Anyhow, I made sure that the factory didn’t exist anymore. Don’t you worry [laughs]
MC: So where did you train to fly the Wellington?
HH: Pardon?
MC: Where did you train to fly the Wellington?
JH: To fly the Wellington.
MC: It was a twin engine. You’ve gone from single engine Battles to the Wellington. Where did you do your training to fly the Wellington?
HH: At Hemswell.
MC: Oh, you did that at the squadron did you?
HH: Yeah.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
MC: And how did you get your crew together?
HH: I was just given the crew.
MC: Yeah. You were just given the crew.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. so —
HH: The other thing that I must impress is this. That the names. Now, the names like was to me it wasn’t a problem but to a lot of people it would have been. You see my original name, my Polish name, I insisted that I would volunteer provided that my, not under my name. For the simple reason because I knew that the Soviet GPU, that was the police, that they were looking after anybody with our names because of my father. What he was doing after the First World War.
MC: Yeah.
HH: He was one that was shaking the Russians and Germans out of Poland. He was the one. So he was on, our name was on a blacklist.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: So therefore I couldn’t. This was what my mother said. She said, ‘Don’t forget your name.’
MC: Yeah.
HH: She said, ‘Don’t forget your name. Use somebody else’s, but don’t forget our name.’ Which, which I did and I insisted that my name was, my proper name would never be used and this is it. And I made a mistake because that lady that asked me my proper name. I slipped up when I told her my name.
MC: Yeah.
JH: I’ve sorted that now.
HH: But I would prefer if it wasn’t mentioned.
MC: I understand.
JH: Yeah.
MC: It’s up to you whether you mention.
HH: How we got away because you see all, all the trips that we did there they were all volunteers. All volunteers. So therefore the volunteers they had to be names. Who is actually flying the thing? You know, what the —
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: What the things are and that. I always said, ‘I don’t care what name you put in as a pilot,’ and that was it.
MC: So who chose, who chose your name then?
HH: Anybody. Whoever. Whoever was filling the document up.
MC: So, how, how did you get to be, obviously you’re not —
HH: I wasn’t the only one.
MC: No. No.
HH: Most of the, most of the Poles were the same.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Yes.
HH: But you got, you changed your name to Harris.
JH: Yes.
HH: Ah, no. Well that I changed that because when I was demobbed that was another thing. I thought well I can’t get away with it like that anymore. So I actually changed it by deed poll.
MC: I understand now.
HH: It cost me a damned fortune to tell you the truth and that, I didn’t work. I didn’t have any work. No. No. I was just, just out of hospital.
MC: Yeah. So, so when you were flying on operations they just used any name.
HH: Anything.
MC: Any name. Yeah. Any name. Yeah.
HH: They knew. Whoever did the form. Whoever wrote the forms out. They knew.
MC: Yeah.
HH: They knew me by looking at. Giving any names.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So what, can you remember your first operation in the Wellington?
HH: Was it Hamburg?
MC: Ah, Hamburg. Yeah. Yeah. Because you’ve got a five man crew haven’t you in a Wellington?
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. I think it, yeah it must have been Hamburg. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
MC: What were you thoughts, experiences of that? You know.
HH: Yeah, and I thought there again because now we are actually in action so it’s up to me what the aeroplane is doing. Not —
MC: Yeah.
HH: Not the instructions. And, and I got to know the thing you know.
MC: Did you like it? The Wellington.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it, to me it was a little bit underpowered.
MC: Really. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: You would have preferred a fighter.
HH: Well, I did. I did. Wait until I got into a Hurricane.
MC: Oh yeah. So, how many operations did you fly in that Wellington? In those Wellingtons. In that squadron.
JH: Oh, you wouldn’t know.
MC: Do you have your logbook?
HH: I don’t. I don’t know. I haven’t, I haven’t got anything.
MC: Oh right. Ok.
JH: He hasn’t got anything.
HH: I’ve nothing. No. No.
JH: He just wanted, when it was over he just wanted to forget about it.
MC: Yeah. So —
HH: I didn’t actually want to know any anybody that how actually I got into England.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No.
HH: I didn’t want anyone to know.
MC: I understand. Yeah. Yeah. So —
HH: Because the first thing was that if any really, if any advocates finds out that I lied about my age in the first place I said I could be going to bloody jail.
MC: Yeah [laughs]
HH: What for, you know?
JH: Could it have been? Could it have been?
HH: No. No. No.
JH: No. Ok.
HH: I I don’t think that I —
MC: I think.
HH: Once I find out, found out that I wasn’t the only one who was doing it.
MC: No.
HH: You know.
MC: Yeah.
HH: And I thought well they can’t lock them all up, you know.
JH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
HH: But and that was it. In any case I mean there were so many other things to think about. You know. Oh, well we’re going so and so and the last minute no. We’re not going for a pint and I didn’t even drink then. I didn’t drink any beer.
MC: Yeah. So, I mean you were with 301 Squadron at Hemswell.
HH: Yeah.
MC: On Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah.
MC: So, obviously when you finished there what happened then? When you finished your operational flying with 301.
HH: Wellington. The Wellington was actually withdrawn from operations when the Lancaster became operational because it was getting a nuisance with it being too slow. So you, you couldn’t keep up with, with a Lancaster and you know on the different heights and so on. They were a lot higher than us. We had to be lower. So we were a bloody nuisance for them.
JH: Yeah.
HH: To carry their operations. They probably couldn’t drop the bombs because we were underneath.
JH: Yeah.
HH: You know.
JH: You told me once about your tactics. How you killed a lot, bombed a lot of German planes. You had, you had, you had a special tactic didn’t you?
HH: Ah well, one I [pause] I actually, I was out. I was more or less, I was still in the squadron but I was actually believe it or not do you know what rank I had? I had the squadron leader rank, but I didn’t have a squadron ever. The reason that I got the rank was because I could speak English and on many occasions there was a phone call, ‘Come down to London. We need you to interpret this and interpret this.’ You know. So therefore, there was no good giving me a bloody squadron. If I had to be away what would we do [unclear] So, I kept the rank obviously. I think they gave me the rank because probably the interpreter had to be an officer. I don’t know. I don’t know what.
MC: It could have been because you deserved it.
HH: Well, yeah. And anyhow so I didn’t ever question that.
MC: No.
HH: No. I often thought, you know why, why they salute me?
JH: When you were younger than them.
HH: Well, yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: If they knew [laughs]
MC: Yeah.
HH: If they only knew.
MC: Yeah [laughs] Much younger.
HH: Yeah.
MC: So, I mean come back to the tactics of your —
JH: Oh yes.
MC: Bombing.
HH: Yeah.
MC: And you know you were saying.
JH: Yeah. You did have a certain you told me once probably you’ve forgotten now.
MC: Well, when you used to attack the airfields or what?
HH: Well, the thing is you see I had my own ways.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Now, there was one, one occasion I had the Hurricane was actually my aeroplane then.
MC: You had a Hurricane.
HH: Yeah.
MC: What? On, while you was on the squadron.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Of Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah. I was still in the same squadron but I had a Hurricane for my personal things.
MC: So what did you do with the Hurricane? Did you use it?
HH: Well, this is, this is what I was actually detailed to assist the local defence.
MC: Oh, what? Fighter affiliation. Did you do fighter affiliation? No? To practising for the bombers.
HH: No.
MC: Practice for fighter avoiding.
HH: Well, no. I could fly whenever I wanted to.
MC: Yeah.
HH: But I didn’t. I didn’t misuse the petrol. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: But I’ll give you one occasion that they had a bit of a problem down south, over London there. Jerry had a little bit too much of his own way and there was a phone call and they asked if I could come down to help. I said, obviously, ‘I’m in it. I’m in it, I’m coming down,’ and I thought I’m not going to go down to London because by the time I get there right they’ll be going back. And they’ll be going back quickly because the petrol will be running out. So they’ll be easier to catch when they are actually going back home. So I went right down the coast. Right down the coast. And I was waiting and I just copped there was two. Two 109s, and I got them and they went down in the water. And then I thought well I can’t see any more and then there was one, another big one coming. That was a Heinkel 111.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Heinkel 111. I said I would like that one. Yeah. And I did get it and all. He went down in the water and all. Yeah. So the fish were happy. [laughs]
JH: I didn’t know about that.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Anyhow, so you see I was more or less told to the whoever was doing the operation whoever wanted any help they could always ring me and if I wasn’t busy with somebody else like you know I would hop down in the Hurricane and come down.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Not, not ever happened. Not any more happened after that.
MC: Yeah.
HH: So you know but they were down here. I didn’t actually shoot that one but one of my lads and that was a 88.
MC: Oh yeah. JU88.
HH: JU88.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Now, we found out actually from the crew, from the German crew, there again me talking German you see —
MC: Yeah.
HH: I found out where they actually were going and guess where? They were going to [pause] what do they call the —
MC: I’m trying to help you but —
HH: Rolls Royce.
MC: Oh right.
HH: They were going to demolish that.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: That’s what the pilot told me.
MC: Oh right. Goodness me.
HH: Yeah. So, I said, ‘Well, you will have better life than demolishing that.’
MC: Yeah.
HH: So, ‘You are an officer especially and you are in the Luftwaffe as well.’
MC: Yeah.
HH: So we are enemies but we are friends.
MC: Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
MC: A lot of there was a sort of respect between the two forces. Air Forces.
HH: Well, there were.
MC: You know, even though they were on opposite sides.
HH: They were only doing the same thing that we were doing you know.
MC: Yeah.
HH: If I knew that he was a bloody Hitler’s brother I would have bloody killed him.
MC: Yeah. So I mean, I mean all your operations did, did, were you was the aircraft fairly reliable? Did you have any mishaps?
HH: No. No mishaps but there were times that we were coming back, it would be what? About 4 o’clock in the morning or something like this or were just leaving the coast over the Channel and what can you see? Fog. Where do we go now? Yeah. Anyhow, I always remember the Cathedral and that flaming thing that they stuck there where your place is now.
MC: Oh yes. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Sometimes not always could you see it.
MC: The Cathedral.
HH: The Cathedral.
JH: No. He’s talking about the —
MC: Oh, yeah.
JH: Yeah.
MC: Oh I know what you mean.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Oh dear. There’s an obelisk there.
JH: Sweetheart, would you drink some of that at the same time darling.
HH: Oh yes. Thank you.
JH: I’m very proud of you.
HH: You are catching me at the point you know I mean so many things that happened.
JH: Yeah. We know it’s hard.
HH: Getting things in detail.
JH: Yeah. It is.
HH: It is not easy.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: It’s not easy.
MC: No. No.
JH: Well, well —
HH: Because at the time you were doing it not to remember it. You did it to do it and get on with it.
JH: Yeah. Just have a drink.
[pause]
JH: It’s just an energy drink that he has.
[recording paused]
HH: On one occasion I don’t know where we were actually going and the flak was very very, very happy being against us [laughs] and anyhow one bullet went through the bloody windscreen. Anyhow, and that one eye, one of my eyes went down on the thermometer. Thirty degrees. Thirty degrees below zero. Wow. Down. We had to go down because it was bloody freezing.
MC: Yeah.
HH: I mean there was no heating in any of English aircraft. Only Yanks. They were heated aircraft. I never found any English aeroplane with the heating in. Exception of the passengers. Passenger air.
JH: That was just because we couldn’t remember Swinderby but it did come to us after.
HH: Swinderby. No. No.
JH: It did come.
[recording paused]
MC: You never forget Swinderby.
HH: No. Because we had to dig our own toilets. There was nothing there.
JH: Oh dear.
HH: No. And guess, guess what was going to happen? King George the 5th was coming to inspect.
JH: Oh, my God.
HH: Now fortunately we were at Hemswell.
MC: Yeah. When he came.
JH: Oh, you were at Hemswell.
HH: Yeah. Fortunate.
[recording pause]
HH: The country was in the war. They couldn’t, they couldn’t organise with everything all that quick you know so —
MC: You had to do it yourself.
HH: It was necessary.
MC: Yeah.
HH: And that was it. But a lot of people thought oh yeah, yeah when Polish Air Force come they were nicely lodged in in [pause] in places with billiard tables, and so on and I thought to myself, a billiard table. You must be joking. If you had a toilet you would be lucky.
MC: So, I’m trying to get the timescale. When you flew the Wellingtons at Hemswell with 301 squadron. When did you finish with the squadron? How long were you with that squadron?
HH: I don’t actually know what happened to the squadron because —
MC: Did you, did you go on to Lancasters?
HH: I went to, to the school. Yes. And I was about I would say about halfway through when the war finished.
JH: What school?
MC: It’s the Lancaster, it would be the Lancaster Finishing School.
JH: Oh.
HH: Not far from here.
MC: Wigsley. Wigsley. Was it Wigsley?
HH: Could be Wigsley. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: So you, so were you with the squadron right the way through the war then? Right until the end of the war.
HH: As far as I know. Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So you didn’t go onto any instructor duties or anything like that.
HH: No.
MC: No.
HH: Thank you, sweetheart.
JH: There you are, darling.
HH: No. Because I mean what was the point? War was finished.
MC: So, yeah. So you were with the squadron right ‘til the end of the war.
HH: Yeah, I mean what did Churchill say? You can go home now. We don’t need you anymore. And that was it.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: It wasn’t very nice but still —
MC: Did, was there, did you do any operations to bring prisoners of war back?
HH: No. No prisoner of war. No. I brought my brother back.
MC: Oh, that’s what. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Well, that, that was again I don’t know who the, who asked me to do that. Whether it was the Polish government. Whether the Polish Air Force [pause] probably didn’t because they wouldn’t know anything about my brother. But the Polish government must have done because they wanted my brother. They wanted him at Bletchley. What happened? He was at Monte Casino and he lost his foot, right foot and so he was no bloody good there in any case. So, you know I got a call and I was asked to go and pick a soldier from Monte Casino and bring him back to England.
JH: He didn’t know his name.
HH: No.
MC: Just the one soldier.
HH: Yeah. Just one. Just one soldier who was actually wounded.
MC: Yeah.
HH: One casualty to be brought in. And it wasn’t until I got there actually and saw who the soldier was. I didn’t know it was my brother.
MC: That’s amazing.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. And that was a Wellington you took out there to pick him up.
HH: No. No. No. No. No.
MC: What did you take him?
HH: It was a [pause] oh God knows what the name was.
MC: Yeah.
HH: It was like a personnel. Did they call them hanson?
MC: Oh, the Anson. Yeah.
HH: Anson.
MC: The Avro Anson. Oh right.
HH: Yeah. It was an Anson.
MC: Yes.
HH: I’d never flown that thing but still, I mean, most aircraft you know is like, like a car. When you get a car do a couple of miles you know what the car can do or what it can’t do. When you are a driver let’s put it that way.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you were a driver.
HH: Not a lady driver.
MC: You were certainly an aeroplane driver.
HH: Oh, yeah. I could.
MC: Yeah.
HH: I don’t now.
MC: No. No.
HH: So anyhow, so that, that was, and I went to from Gibraltar, I think.
MC: Yes.
HH: Gibraltar was the best place. And anyhow, I brought him back.
MC: So as that was the end of the war so you both stayed in, in the UK at the end of the war.
HH: Yes. Yeah.
JH: He was in a settlement camp weren’t you?
HH: A resettlement camp. Yeah. Well, that was for, for those who, who didn’t know whether they were going to Canada or America or Australia. That was our choice. We could, we could ask to be taken.
MC: Yeah.
HH: You know, if the governments were ok like, you know.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: And that was there, one of the resettlement camps was here actually. Yeah.
JH: Was it somewhere near Grimsby?
HH: Grimsby. That rings a bell. Yes.
JH: Yes.
HH: Grimsby. Yes. Yeah. Now, what did they call that camp?
MC: Oh dear. There’s quite a few up that way.
HH: There is a road by it. The road was called the same as [pause] Wilsby? Is there a Wilsby?
MC: Manby.
JH: Manby.
MC: Manby.
HH: I know Manby. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
HH: I’ve been to Manby.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
JH: Anyway, how many different religions and men was in this settlement camp?
HH: Oh, my God [laughs]
JH: You once told me.
HH: Yeah.
JH: And that the head chap knew exactly how many potatoes to order. How many vegetables.
HH: Oh yeah.
JH: You had Italians, you had —
HH: Yeah. That was [pause] I can’t remember where that was. Anyhow, we got our own kitchen.
MC: What? Your own kitchen as Polish. Or just every —
HH: No. No. There were there were other nationalities as well.
MC: Yeah.
JH: I think you once said eleven different nationalities.
HH: Yeah.
MC: A lot of different nationalities. Yeah.
JH: Yeah, and you all got on.
HH: It was also the point of religion came up as well.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. So it wasn’t easy. We were all in a big muddle and to get through it you were —
MC: Yeah.
JH: Oh, I tell you what you haven’t mentioned. When you run out of petrol in your aeroplane.
HH: No. I’ll tell you when, when my last assignment, the last assignment, right. Now, they the Normandy was on the go. Right.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: And the German Army was moving their best armies from Russia and Italy. They were moving them up to Normandy. Right. With these trains. Yeah.
JH: The trains.
HH: Right. But that was my last assignment and I went down and the aircraft was American. American aircraft and it didn’t have any bombs. It had only rockets under the wings.
MC: Oh, so this was a single seater fighter aircraft.
HH: Single. Single seater. Yeah. Yeah. And anyhow so there was a train coming up. Obviously, the French Underground was telephoning everything towards where they are and so on and it was coming up and I can show you on a map.
JH: I saw. This is what we got out.
MC: Yeah.
[paper rustling]
HH: There. That road.
MC: Oh right. From Falaise. Oh yes.
JH: Yeah.
MC: The Falaise Gap.
HH: Yeah.
MC: That was a big battle there.
HH: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. It was.
HH: And they were, actually the train, the train runs actually along that road.
MC: Yes. Along the road to Caen.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: What did you do there?
HH: So, so what we had to do the area was actually occupied here by Canadians.
MC: Yeah.
HH: This side and that side but they were away. They moved away from this road because we were coming to destroy that train.
MC: Yeah.
HH: For their safety. So they were about here. It was all Canadian. Canadian there and the train was coming there. They obviously didn’t know. The Germans didn’t know that that was already Canadian. Yeah. They obviously didn’t. Now, the thing was because it was so situation that area was no good attacking with, with bombs because the bombers would be too high and you never knew where they drop either. So they actually the Americans decided but they couldn’t get any pilots doing it.
MC: Yeah.
HH: No.
MC: No.
HH: So that was why they were looking for, for pilots. And anyhow, so I and my, my best mate he was one aircraft and I was behind him. Right. Now, his job was to actually stop the train moving. So as long as he managed those two engines pulling the huge train, the tanks on it and Lord knows what. Anyhow, he did his job and he stopped the train and obviously I was behind him. Not, not too, not too close. Perhaps about five or ten minutes behind him and I would attack the rest of it like, you know. And anyhow so by the time I came to that stage the soldiers obviously they left the train and they were all outside and each soldier obviously has got a rifle hasn’t he? Yeah. When I came around there were probably a thousand rifles firing on me. Right. And the rockets were under the wings like that and I don’t know what happened but I, I thought it out and the only solution that I’ve got that one of the bullets of the rifles must have hit one of the rockets and that exploded and that was it.
MC: And you had to bale out.
HH: Bale out. I was thrown out.
MC: Oh right [laughs]
HH: I was thrown out and I was up in a tree. Now, fortunately the Canadians were watching it actually because they knew what was going to happen, you know and they were watching it and they saw it and one of the coloured Canadians, I was very surprised to see a coloured Canadian. Very strong man. He, he got me off out of the tree and on to the ship and back to England. And I landed up in Edinburgh in hospital. Yeah. With two broken legs. That’s number one. My left hand was in shreds. You can still it’s all deformed. The fingers were hanging loose right over [unclear] but the worst was because the aircraft exploded the splinters, the metal splinters in my back. When the, when the surgeons saw it they decided they’d got to come out as soon as possible because of gangrene. There was too many of them and I had something like, sometimes three operations in one day.
JH: Yeah. You had metal in that leg.
MC: One. Yeah, one bit stuck.
JH: It’s never been the same.
MC: And that was taken out with the, with the electro magnet. Yeah. It was like. And it was smack in the middle. They said it was smack in the middle.
JH: It’s never been the same, has it?
HH: It was fortunate that it was a piece of metal. Not a piece of wood or anything like that. A piece of metal and it was pointing actually that way. Not that way. Pointing that way. So, slowly, slowly moved it and it came out. Clink. Clink. Came out. But they did, there were three surgeons operating then and they said that unfortunately the damage pulling out has done to the eye.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Will never be repaired.
MC: Yeah. Yes.
HH: So just that they can’t do anything about it because it’s all, it’s torn to bits. They were hoping which it, I mean it has [pause] it has healed but it’s never been, never been a hundred percent.
JH: Can you remember when we had that German friend that used to come here and she come from Hamburg and she said to you one day, ‘You didn’t bomb us did you, Harry?’
MC: Yeah.
JH: In Hamburg.
HH: And I said, ‘Yes. I’m afraid I did. Yeah.’
JH: Didn’t you say —
HH: Well, I turned away and, ‘Well, who bombed Warsaw?’
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: And didn’t you tell her, didn’t you tell me once that when you bombed Hamburg you had, you Polish pilots had, had a different way of dealing with it than the English pilots did. You probably can’t remember, can you?
HH: Listen, I was a pilot in an aircraft to take there and come back. I don’t care what the rest of the crew did. I didn’t give a shit.
JH: No. No I’m, yeah.
MC: The rest of the aircraft.
JH: I’m talking about you, just you Polish pilots had your own tactics.
HH: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
JH: With the Germans.
HH: Yeah. Well, don’t forget I mean they were, not all the Polish pilots were like me. I was one who shouldn’t be in the forces in the first place because I was too young, and I wasn’t even in any Army.
JH: No. But you, you were clever. You was clever.
HH: Well, I did what I, when I was, when I was asked to do anything it was up to me.
JH: Yes.
MC: How you did it.
HH: To say yes or no. Nobody said, you’ve got to do this and that and that and that. Nobody said. I got to know. They told me what it was. Don’t go too low or else you’ll be caught and things like that. Like for example, like Peenemunde. That was another thing. You’ve heard of Peenemunde.
MC: I have indeed, yeah.
HH: The rocket place. Well, when, when we first got photographs of Peenemunde I’m afraid the Royal Air Force, they were laughing. They were. Yeah. They were laughing. Who do they think they are? They’re like wooden ramps of some sort. I said, ‘Well wait a minute. Wait a minute. When we were kids, when we were kids right we used to go in the summer to the seaside.’ To the North Sea. To the Baltic Sea. Where we used to go. Right. ‘We used to see the rockets being fired out on the sea.’
MC: Testing them.
HH: Testing them. Yeah. So I knew that there was something else more than just bloody pieces of wood there. And the installation. They didn’t do anything until they found out that they fired the V-2 rocket out from there.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Then they found, ah Peenemunde, ah we should have done something. Yeah. You should. You should. Because little kids told you about the rocket base there but they didn’t do anything. Yeah. Well —
MC: Did you actually bomb it?
HH: No. No.
MC: No. But you remember it.
HH: Oh, I remember what it was. Yeah.
MC: So, did you get any decorations?
HH: No.
MC: No, you didn’t. As a squadron leader.
JH: Well, he was offered. He was offered one.
HH: I’ll tell you something else now. I never got a shilling pay all the time.
MC: You didn’t.
JH: No. Because he was voluntary, you see.
MC: Yeah. But even so he should have been paid.
HH: No.
JH: No.
HH: No. I wasn’t paid. No. I didn’t ask anyone.
MC: Really. Goodness me. That’s amazing.
HH: No. I mean I got a uniform and I was fed in the officer’s mess. So, no. I didn’t. I didn’t want it. I didn’t need any money. But I knew that you know they were paid and I thought to myself well if it’s the Polish government well keep it because they haven’t got any bloody money now in any case. They were running themselves into debt so keep the money. I wasn’t bothered about money.
MC: So did you have any money at the time?
HH: Very little. Very little. When I was released I worked on a farm with Irish laborers.
MC: Oh right.
JH: It nearly killed him.
MC: Yeah.
JH: Because you was educated to use your head not your hands.
MC: Yeah.
HH: No. Well, they liked, they liked me to go to the farmer and negotiate. They, yeah liked that. Yeah. Because obviously the farmer knew they were Irish, you know. They would try to fiddle him or anything like this you know but somehow —
MC: So, this was after the war. When you were demobbed.
HH: Oh yeah.
MC: After the resettlement.
HH: Yeah.
MC: You chose to stay in the UK.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And then —
HH: Yeah.
MC: So you worked on the land.
HH: Yeah. Now, that is the point. That is the point when my original name got changed by deed poll.
MC: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: And therefore I should not have told that lady my original name.
JH: He’s talking about the lady who —
MC: Yeah. Who wanted to write a book.
JH: Write a book and that —
MC: [unclear]
JH: Yeah.
HH: If she could scribble it. I don’t know.
MC: Ok.
HH: I should not have mentioned my name because it’s not name. I mean, I bought the Harris name. I bought it. It cost me a lot of money.
MC: You said. Yeah.
HH: Do you know what? Obviously, must know Harris Tweed.
MC: Yes.
HH: Yeah. Well, apparently I had to have three solicitors to do that. Each of them —
MC: Yeah. Wanted money.
HH: A lot of money.
JH: And at that time you’d got your garage.
HH: At the time I didn’t have any. I was working on the land.
JH: Oh. I didn’t realise that. I thought you changed your name when you were at Gainsborough.
HH: Oh no. No. That’s, that’s yeah —
MC: So what did you do after you’d finished on the land then? So you worked on the land for a while.
HH: Well, I worked on the land with my eyes open. Right. And what I noticed there was a lot of especially those big farmers, big farmers you know and I noticed in the garages they had the Rolls Royces there and so on, you know. And so I thought ha ha they’ve got to store them in there because they’ve no petrol and they can’t use them. So when the war is finished those cars will need attention. Ha ha right. And I got the one farmer on that game and he said, ‘Well, yes I want my car on the road and really it wants taking to Rolls Royce.’ And he hadn’t got a chauffeur. So I said, ‘Well, if you want a chauffeur you’re looking at one.’ So that I can drive a Rolls Royce no problem. So I took his car to Rolls Royce to be redone. Whatever they had to do there. And that was it. One farmer was talking to another farmer and so on, you know and that’s how I got in to that elite of farmers. They had other vehicles like Austin 7s and all this, you know. So I thought well restoring these bloody vehicles could be a good paying job and that’s what I did. That’s what I did.
MC: So you did vehicle restoration.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Oh right.
HH: Yeah.
MC: And that was in Gainsborough you say.
HH: Yeah. I was in Gainsborough then. Yeah. And the thing is I rented the property. I didn’t own it. I rented the property and the property belonged to a builders and they were, they were using, being used to build airfields and things like that all during the war and so on so they were used to RAF and all this. So I I got in touch with the RAF as well you know and, but I didn’t tell them who I was. No. I never. I used to go to the air shows and so on and have a look.
JH: What about when your mother died in Poland?
HH: That is, that no don’t take that in.
MC: No.
HH: No. That —
JH: I think that’s ok as long as you don’t mention the, how you got there.
HH: Well, yeah this is a problem. How you got there. That is a problem.
MC: Well, I mean, if this is, this is part of history, Harry.
JH: Yeah. It’s history now. Yeah.
MC: And so it’s —
JH: Yeah.
JH: I think you can say now.
HH: The club doesn’t exist now in any case.
JH: Yeah. Ok.
HH: Because we were the Lincoln Aero Club. What happened I used to send, now my mother had a certain illness. I don’t know what it was. Her doctor wrote it all in Latin so I didn’t, I didn’t know what it was but he, she was sending me his prescriptions and I could send the prescription to London to a chemist who was actually allowed to send medicine on prescriptions away to other countries. It had to go through Switzerland.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Through the International Red Cross and so on. So I used to send her medicine. And when she passed away I got the telephone actually on Saturday morning. I was in my office doing some paperwork and the phone rang and it was my brother and he, he lived in London. He, and he said, ‘Mum, mum passed away. And apparently the funeral is on Monday.’ So I thought it’s on Monday. I thought how Monday. So I said to him, ‘Well, you get yourself ready and I’ll, I’ll meet you or you come to me. It’ll be better if you come to me by car and we will go.’ I mean never, never questioned any you know. He was obviously he was taken up a little. What I did I belonged to Lincoln Aero Club. I hired one of their aircraft for a week. I didn’t tell anyone I was going or anything like that. We just went off and that was it.
MC: So you flew from Lincoln to Poland.
HH: Correct. Yeah. Nobody stopped me, nobody said anything, you know. My brother kept looking at me. He said, ‘How do you know where you’re going?’ I said, ‘I have been this way many times, don’t worry.’ [laughs] Yeah.
JH: And you actually went to the funeral, didn’t you?
HH: Oh yes. I went to the funeral yes but I kept my eyes open because fortunately there was a reasonably good field very near the cemetery.
JH: There’s a lot of land in Poland.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: And anyhow so, and it was a light aircraft so you know I had to when I landed it I had to be very careful not to get dug in or I’d be upside down. Anyhow, it worked out alright and but I, I, I didn’t forget actually about the funeral. Obviously I was upset but I wasn’t upset to that stage where I knew actually what was happening and I thought somebody must have seen that little aircraft.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: And the sooner we are out and away, the better it will be for us and I said to my brother, I said, ‘You can stay if you like but I can’t promise that I can bring you back. But I’ve got to get away. I’ve got to get that aircraft away otherwise we’ll be in the cart and I will be in jail.’ So anyhow, anyhow, he agreed with me and he said, ‘Yeah. We’d better go.’ And that was it.
MC: What you haven’t told me about is about your father. What about your father?
HH: Well, my father was actually shot. Now, I’ve got to go way back. You see, after the First World War he was in, in the area where we lived, Poznan. He was the, more or less the organiser to get the oppressors out. And they obviously the Germans wanted him and also the Russians wanted him. So when the war broke out my father would be in, he was an officer in the Reserve so he would be in the Army when the war broke out. Right. Now, when the, when the Germans moved in to Poland he would be caught as a prisoner of war. Which they did. All the officers and all the officers and any people who had anything to do with the government they were taken in to a camp. My dad including. Right. So the Germans had them as well as prisoners, not necessarily prisoners of, not army prisoners. They were also civilians.
MC: Political prisoners.
HH: They were prisoners. Political prisoners. Let’s put it that way. So they were in this camp in Katyn. Now, when, that is when the Germans and the Russians were actually together. Right. Now, now we are at the point where the Germans actually attacked Russia. Right. Ok. So when the Russians got very nearly up to Moscow they stopped.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Not by willingness.
MC: No. No. No.
HH: Do you know what? I really laughed because all the high ranking German officers who were, you know prancing about and I thought to myself have you forgotten what happened to Napoleon? What happened to him when he went to Russia? So they didn’t. No. All the vehicles everything, horses frozen to, to the ground overnight. And that was it. They couldn’t move.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. So now then how come this, so the Russians come in, right. You know. So the [pause] this camp belonged actually to Germans. Right. Where they were. But the Russians came and they found this camp. And the Germans actually gave them, gave them the camp up so the Russians took over the camp now. And it still, now coming back to Stalin we’ve got to know him. I don’t know whether you know about the history of Stalin but it’s not very nice. The biggest murderer in the world Stalin was.
JH: What? Bigger than Hitler?
HH: Pardon?
JH: Bigger than Hitler?
HH: Yeah. Because Hitler wasn’t actually directly issuing the orders. Hitler made somebody else to direct the order. He was a little bit smarter than [pause] But Stalin he, he smiled to himself when he was doing even through the radio and so on. I am, you know I am ruling the world and all this. He was cracked. And anyhow, so he decided that he doesn’t want them in Russia all that long or he would have to, he would have to do something with them so the best thing that he always used to do was kill. So he ordered them to make the graves. Dig the graves. And when the graves were done they were shot. They were shot.
MC: All of them?
HH: All of them. Yeah.
MC: Now, when, when the war had finished actually this has come out now and it’s still going on and I know the truth and I believe that truth. I don’t believe anything else that happened. The thing was that the international investigation who actually killed him. Was it the Germans or was it the Russians?
JH: Well, you know —
HH: Now, how did the find out that? Oh they had chemicals there. They made this. They made this. Spent a lot of money and they came to neither. Now, the news that I know I from people who were actually there when this happened unknown that they were being observed by others. Now, those people you can’t say, ‘You are lying.’ He’s seen it.
MC: Eyewitness.
HH: Eyewitness. But they wouldn’t believe them. No. No. No. No, because the international things. This is why in politics I don’t want to know. I don’t know want to know.
JH: So you believe it was the Russians.
HH: Definitely the Russians.
MC: Yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah.
HH: Definitely the Russians. Yeah. Definitely.
MC: So, after the war, you know obviously you mentioned Churchill earlier and Churchill’s treatment of Bomber Command and the job you did.
HH: Yes. I think Churchill as far as the Polish Air Force is concerned I think did Churchill even know that there was a Polish Air Force? I don’t think so. I don’t think so.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Not that I’m bothered. No. No. I’ve read some of his books like, you know that he wrote, and he was more interested in exchanging spies from Russia to England or get our spies out of Russia and Russian spies out of England. He was more interested in that and he was also interested in getting Hitler out of the way. And that was what I admired him for. That’s the only thing.
MC: Yeah. So of course the other man I mentioned is the man you were named after. Harris.
HH: Harris.
MC: Bomber Harris.
JH: Oh yeah.
MC: Arthur Harris.
HH: Yeah. Well —
MC: Not to say you were named after him.
HH: The thing is that what could he do? He only had a certain amount of tackle. Let’s put it that way, to do. Some of it be coming too late. Should have been years, done years before but they didn’t, they didn’t believe it or the new invention and all this, you know instead of getting on with it. I mean they could have. England could have won that war. It’s an island.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: That’s the biggest advantage isn’t it? You’ve got to get in first.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Mind you I’m beginning to wonder how come all these, how come they come here? All these immigrants and the British government doesn’t know how they get in. And when they get in and how many of them are here.
MC: Because it’s an island. Yeah. That’s right.
HH: It’s ridiculous.
JH: You’d think with it it’s an island we could protect then a lot easier.
MC: There’s so many places to come in.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
JH: And we ought to protect us these places.
HH: What stopping, what’s stopping, apparently they can get a lot of money from somebody who’s financing them. Right. What’s stopping them from buying a U-boat?
JH: Anyway, back to —
MC: Nothing.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Nothing.
HH: They can come anywhere.
MC: So you, just going back to your flying.
JH: Yeah.
MC: You continued flying after the war then. You joined Lincoln Aero Club.
JH: Yeah.
MC: You continued to fly.
HH: oh, yeah. Lincoln Aero Club. Yeah. But then you see I got busy. I got busy on the cars and so on and Lincoln Aero Club is, you know, is money.
MC: Did you have your own aeroplane?
HH: I had half and half.
MC: Yeah. You shared one.
HH: And the thing is my partner he used it more than I did, you know. I had to pay half of the fees you know and I thought well if I can’t use it the way I want what’s the point me having it? And I have to have a car in any case.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: So you know, I had enough. I had enough. The other, the other thing what I would just shortly mention —is that thing working?
MC: Yeah.
HH: I made a mistake by getting tied up with my first wife. But don’t put that on because I’ll —
[recording paused]
MC: What medals did you get after the war? Did you get any medals?
HH: No.
MC: Did you not get any Polish medals?
HH: No.
MC: You didn’t get any decorations.
JH: I thought you was offered some once but you turned it down.
HH: Yeah. I did. Yeah.
MC: Right. Ok. So you didn’t, because you told me the story about attacking the trains during the Normandy campaign.
HH: Yeah.
MC: I wondered whether you would have qualified for the Bomber Command clasp which would have been part of the ‘39— but if you didn’t have the medals.
HH: I don’t want anything.
MC: No. That’s ok. It’s just —
JH: He didn’t want them. He didn’t want anything. That was the reason.
HH: I don’t want any praise. I don’t want anything.
MC: No. No. I appreciate that.
JH: No. You don’t.
HH: To me —
MC: No. No, that’s ok. That’s great.
HH: Things are done.
JH: That’s great.
MC: Well, Henry if you’ve got any, if there’s anything else I’ve missed I’m sure you’ve got loads of stories.
JH: You just haven’t told the one where you ran out of petrol in the aircraft.
MC: Oh, you were saying earlier.
JH: In that —
HH: Oh that.
JH: I like that story.
MC: When was that? That was —
JH: You was in Russia. You were in the Cossacks.
HH: Yeah.
MC: You were in a Wellington?
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Oh yeah, because I, there again you see the reason why I don’t like it to be known because I I would have been probably punished for doing what happened.
MC: You won’t now. You won’t now. Not now
HH: Not now. No. No. But what I have done on that occasion I went to a place where I wasn’t supposed to be going and therefore I used a little bit more petrol. And when it, when it was time to go back I knew that I wouldn’t make it so I had to get some petrol from [laughs] from somewhere. Anyhow, so I got the only, the only people available were the Russians. So, I went across and I was talking to them, ‘You’ve got to talk to a commander. So up on your horse and we’ll go and see the commanding — ’ Their commanding officer, you know. And there we go on a horse and I’ve never been on a horse in my life. Anyhow, during, during the journey all of a sudden they stopped and brought some refreshment like you know and there was a bloody hot meat and I thought where is the kitchen? No kitchen. Do you know how they cooked? How they cooked their meat? Under the saddle.
JH: Of the horse. And —
HH: Well, obviously its wrapped.
MC: Yeah.
HH: In a cloth and so on. It’s not touching the horse.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: In any way.
JH: And you said they were Cossacks.
HH: And it was a ride on the saddle.
JH: Little horses weren’t they?
HH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Amazing.
JH: Yeah.
MC: Amazing. Yeah. So you landed your aircraft in Russia.
HH: Not quite. Not quite.
JH: Where?
HH: When you are in a situation like that you just land and that’s it. You don’t ask, ‘Is this Russia?’ As you’ve landed. That’s it.
MC: Yeah.
HH: I don’t know where it was.
MC: But you found the Russians and you got some petrol.
HH: Well, they were friendly and they were there and I got some petrol. I got petrol. More than I wanted. So anyhow —
MC: You managed to get off and get back.
HH: Yeah.
MC: Fascinating.
HH: And you know the crew never asked what I was doing.
MC: They trusted you.
HH: And I didn’t tell them. I didn’t tell them.
JH: They always wanted to go with you because you always came back, didn’t they?
HH: This was it. One day we sitting, all sitting and drinking tea. I think that’s what it was and one of them came out because I heard it like all around me and about why. Why that I’m sometimes not going on these things, you know. And anyhow, so one of them piped up and said, ‘Well, the reason that we were asking and we were more or less complaining is because when you are not in the pilot’s seat we are not quite as sure that we are going to back. But when we can see you in the seat we know we are going to come back.’
MC: That’s brilliant, that’s good.
JH: Yeah. It is. Yeah.
HH: And so you know and I thought, ‘Well, are you taking the mickey out of me or what are you?’ You know.
MC: I’m sure not. Yeah.
HH: No. It came back, no. No. Because you see there are things that I have learned from my uncle about flying and flying and not flying. That is it. That is a question, you know.
MC: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. You used to tell me, oh a long, long time ago you used to tell me that you had certain ways that the Germans couldn’t know about when you was in the air. Something to do with underneath. You always used to fly low.
HH: Oh yeah.
MC: Did you? You used to fly low. Under the radar.
HH: Yeah.
HH: All the time.
JH: Yeah.
HH: All the time. Whenever.
JH: That was your —
HH: Whenever there was something sticky I used to say right, radar and I knew how they operate. I took an interest in it, you know. How that radar of theirs operates and so there were loopholes. A bit dangerous, but there were loopholes to get through it. And I always thought well if I’m going to be near the loophole I’m going through it and that was it. There’s no two way back. I think that the crew, whoever was in the crew I didn’t always know who was, who was doing what. I wasn’t interested. I knew that they would do their best.
MC: Yeah.
HH: I knew that.
MC: Yeah.
HH: The best of they could. So would I. And that’s how we could work and that was it. It wasn’t just me. No.
MC: No. Every man in the crew has his job.
JH: Yes.
HH: I mean, I feel that some other pilots some of them when they were getting in sticky positions and so on they were, they were losing their rag you know. They were.
MC: So you had the same crew all the time did you?
HH: Not always.
MC: No. No.
HH: Not always.
MC: No.
HH: But all the crew always knew that they wanted, they were happy.
MC: To fly with you.
HH: Yeah. They were happy.
MC: Yeah. Well Henry thank you very much for talking to us.
JH: Yeah.
MC: It’s been brilliant.
JH: Yeah. It has.
MC: Absolutely fascinating story you’ve got.
JH: Yeah. Absolutely.
HH: Yeah. And I hope it’s been worth your time.
MC: No, it has.
JH: Yeah.
MC: Has absolutely been worth my time.
JH: Yeah.
MC: Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Henry Harris
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisH180520
Conforms To
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Pending review
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01:48:22 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Hamburg
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
Description
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Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed.
301 Squadron
aircrew
Hurricane
Operation Dodge (1945)
pilot
RAF Hemswell
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/930/11288/ALloydC180823.1.mp3
60d6de38e62fa8e5dab0b4494bb58e06
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lloyd, Colin
C Lloyd
Description
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An oral history interview with Colin Lloyd (b. 1933) He grew up in Lincolnshire and witnessed an aircraft crash.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lloyd, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Colin Lloyd. The interview is taking place at Mr Lloyd’s home at Doddington, Lincoln. Also in attendance is Mr Peter Small. Okay Colin, let’s start with this, let’s start the interview. I’ll ask you, just tell me a bit, when and where were you born?
CL: 1933.
MC: 1933. Where was that?
CL: Torksey.
MC: Oh, you were in Tat orksey. So how long have you lived in this area?
CL: Pardon?
MC: How long have you lived in this area?
MC: Oh, we came up here about, well we came to Whisby Moor from Girton 1942, early ‘42 cause dad worked on the gravel pit down here you see and he got a place down there, and we moved there, down there Gravel Pit Lane, that’s how come me and me pal used to go across there where the aircraft was.
MC: Of course, the airfield.
CL: When we could, you know, we was at school some of the time like, you know.
MC: So being born in 33 you were about what, about six or seven, when war broke out, six.
CL: Oh yeah, seven
MC: Do you remember much about that?
CL: I can remember we lived at Spalford then, do you know Spalford? And we lived there, it was a Sunday, wan’t it. I was coming down the stairs when Chamberlain I think it was you know, saying consequently we are at war with Germany and that was, you know, and then of course after that that was it. Then we moved down from there to you lot know it, I shouldn’t, you might, Green Lane do you know it?
[Other]: Yeah.
CL: Between Girton and Spalford, we was there till about early 1942 and as I said, dad got that job here down at Wigsley see and he got a place with it, down the old lane there and then we came there and was there till about 1948 and then they got a new council house like, after the war.
MC: So growing up during the war, what was it like when, what was, you know?
CL: You know, when you’re youths, it don’t really bother you a lot does it, you know sort of thing. I mean I told your pal here about them two Junkers 88s, well, we lived down Green Lane then, that was, you know, just a lane but there was houses down there, but it was rough old sandy hills and that before they made it a bomb dump and of course, they came, like I told you, they came across from the Trent, oh I don’t know, they must have been less than a thousand foot up and I was stood on the dyke bank like, you know, looking, well you know that, you don’t bother, and the crosses was on the wings and the fuselage, but the swastika was on the tail. But you could see the men like I can see you, and they did one sweep over Wigsley and let ‘em have it like, Manchesters there then, and there was some smoke about so whether they set one on fire I don’t know like but then they cleared off but they shot ‘em both down didn’t they?
MC: Did they?
CL: Before they got to the coast like, but you could see the chaps, you know, they must have been about, five or six hundred foot up, that’s all, course that’s how they got in wan’t it, you know, be about six o’clock, five or six o’clock, summer night like and off they went like.
MC: So I mean did you see any more instances involving RAF aircraft?
CL: No nothing like that, but mostly in the early part there, of the war, you got the Halifaxes coming from Yorkshire and they used to follow the Trent I reckon. But the first lot to come was the Whitleys, cause they was slow, wan’t they, you know, and maybe about half hour after you get the Halifaxes coming cause they catch ‘em up by the time they got to the coast I should think won’t they, maybe, form up then like, but that was the early days before, well before they got the Lancasters, I think was it? When did they come in?
MC: Yeah, yeah, that was before the Lancasters, well they still used the Halifaxes at the same time as the Lancasters. So you used to watch them forming up did you?
CL: Well, they was formed up but they came along, you know, going down south, you know, wherever they turned off, and I should think they meet up there and form up you see like, but there was, it was funny, well it wasn’t funny, but young bloke, his parents had the petrol pumps on the main Newark to Gainsborough road there, and he went in the RAF like and he got to be a navigator and he had one ring I think, what would that be, aye, anyway he was a navigator, did quite a few trips from Finningley, and in the end he got clobbered like and that was it. But he was a nice chap, cause I can remember me and another old boy, we used to play about a bit, and he was on leave you see and he gave us a toffee out of his pocket, you know, which was luxury then, wan’t it. But he got, you know, done in the end like but, and that was that like. Then of course we, as I said, dad got the house down ‘ere and we moved down ‘ere in 1942.
MC: So you’ve been here ever since.
CL: Yeah. And that’s it like. Cause that was open, wan’t it, early on I suppose, before that wan’t it, Manchesters here wan’t they
MC: So did you get on to the airfield much?
CL: Well we used to go, there was a young lad lived at, well you know where you turn up to Hykeham, the junction there, well there used to be two cottages there, farm cottages and I was mate out with the son of one of them, we when we wan’t at school, walk up there between the, up the roadway like, and past the guardhouse because the guardhouse was about half way up wan’t it.
[Other]: I can’t remember it.
CL: No. Is there a farm track there, you know when you get over the roundabout, keep going, is there a track going to the right yet? There used to be a farm down there.
MC: To the left.
CL: To the right, going towards Lincoln. And the called the farmer Halsey.
[Other]: There was a farm down there, wan’t it.
CL: Well he had it during the war, this Halsey, you know.
[Other]: [Unclear] My father used to work there.
CL: The RAF blokes, the officers, some of them used to have MGs as you know, and Morgans didn’t they, three wheels, well when they’d been on operation I should think, debriefed or whatever they did, maybe an hour after, some of them used to come out the guardroom there and straight across the road and down there, through the farmyard and on to the Wigsley road you see, to Hykeham, instead of going down to the bottom there and turning right, you know, there’s a short cut to Hykeham, so whether they was living out I don’t know, but most of them was officers cause they got their, well they’d got their flying jackets on some of them, you know like. That’s what they used to do like, because at the bottom was the hospital. The RAF hospital.
MC: Yes, sick quarters.
CL: Yeah. Cause they used to be, well nice weather they used to sit outside and probably got their arm bandaged up, leg or whatever, but the real serious ones I should think they take ‘em to that military hospital at Lincoln wan’t they.
MC: There was one at Nocton.
CL: There was one at Lincoln.
[Other]: St George’s.
MC: Oh yeah.
CL: Because my brother was in there, when he come back from Japan, soldier he was like, yeah. I don’t think there’s any of it left now is there.
MC: Not much.
CL: I don’t think so, no. And as I say we used to go over there but luckily we wan’t over there that day when that bombs went up you were talking about.
MC: You were around then were you?
CL: I was down the lane you see, well, we happened to be off school and was down the lane, at home more or less and but outside and then there was this hell of a bang and you could hear, you know, sommat whistling through the air – shrapnel I should think - and I told you didn’t I, this old farm what used to be there, it was smack in line for the, about three fields off but, smack in line with the airfield if you get me, where they went off and me brother worked for this farmer and he happened to be in the cow shed and there was one or two horses in there and me brother said the blast was that terrific he said that some of the horses got on their knees with the blast, you know, and when they went outside all his windows were out his house, you know. I told you didn’t I he said to me brother Jim like, said come on boy, I’m going over there, see the CO blowing all my windows. Anyway, got over there, and there’d be RAF blokes about wan’t there and he said I want to see the CO and the bloke said oh well we’ll get him for you like, whoever he was. And of course Tom went too, and the farmer said blown all my windows out and everything, and my brother Jim said, the CO said you’re bloody lucky mate he said, you got the blast it’s a wonder it didn’t flatten your house! You know, it went that way. The the thing was I think he rented some of the land off Halsey, and it was grassland between the airfield and there, his farm, the road, Whisby Road he thought maybe some would get shrapnel in you see, but luckily Jim me brother said he was lucky like, one or two of them got a bit but nowt to [unclear]. He reckoned it laid the hedge over, I told you didn’t I, I [emphasis] didn’t see it but my brother did, he said it laid the hedge over, big hedge, it was aye, you know in them days didn’t bother a lot did they and there was this big hedge and some of the blast caught it, it laid it over and then of course it come back again, just shows don’t it.
MC: Yeah. Force of the blast.
CL: You said there was a lot, hell of a lot on it wan’t there, yeah, bombs like.
MC: I should clarify at this stage we’re talking about RAF Sculthorpe aren’t we.
CL Yeah that’s right.
MC: We never mentioned that.
CL: That’s it. Where the roundabout is, I don’t know whether you know but there was a QR stood there, dispersal there, you know, there was two squadrons wan’t there, QR that was, once or twice we used to walk over that, we didn’t go on airfield, but there was crash gates there, where the runway end was, but the ordinary, was just rough old dyke and bits of hedge, you know, further on but it went, well I don’t know, the dispersal was empty a couple times if I remember right, but whether he got shot down or whether, you know, he was doing maintenance, you don’t know. Because we were, when there was, if it was daylight they was going a bit early on a raid like, wherever they went I should think I don’t know, they used to go early didn’t they sometimes, daylight, course they drop the crews off you see, and you’d see ‘em there walking about, and get in like, and crank up and if they was taking off from this end going towards the cathedral we used to be able to watch ‘em, you see like, if they was coming from both ways like.
MC: You could get fairly close to it.
CL: Oh yeah, I should say about from here to that, you know that tree there, maybe a little bit further, not much.
MC: We’re talking about twenty yards aren’t we.
CL: Yeah. Well, lads you don’t bother, as you know, we used to put a finger up, I don’t know whether it’d be the pilot would it or flight engineer, which side would he be on, he was taxiing from Skellingthorpe side, be flight engineer wan’t it.
[Other]: It would, yeah. on the right
CL: Wave to you like and then there was that there trolley on the side you know, and flash ‘em a green mate open up and off they’d go, bloody hell, you know once it started taking off mate swung the next one round and they gave ‘em another, and other chap was only half way down the runway and that’s what happened that night, what I told you, when they blew up, they didn’t get off, well they got off the floor but they was going that way that night, towards over Whisby.
MC: Yeah, yeah
CL: The flight path like. Well, where that there restaurant is now that was the, over the top of that more or less, and it was about, I don’t know roughly round tea time, five o’clock time, daylight, and it was after D-Day, I’m sure it was and it was taking off, and of course one or two went up and we wasn’t there, we was more or less on the Whisby road, not, about three fields off like watching them, you know and anyway all of a sudden there was a bloody great bang and this black smoke went up, you know, course one had come down, he’d got off the runway and over the road and pretty well up the first field, and then whatever went wrong, he went in like and that was it. Course you know what we’re like, lads, off we went, you don’t realise do you? That’s when we, I told him, we found two blokes, well, we see two blokes like, they was in a hell of a mess they was, and there was oxygen bottles, oh I don’t know, a couple of oxygen bottles a fair way from where some of the plane was like, you know, and there was incendiaries smoking, they were about that length wan’t they those incendiary bombs, and they were smoking you know and that but the big bomb it must have blown up because the airplane was you know blown up like, four thousand pounder maybe was it?
MC: Probably, yeah, probably. If it was after D-Day they, that would be the daylight raids when they were supporting the invasion.
CL: Aye. I was going to say it was about five o’clock time, when they was going like, and oh and what they did then, as soon as he came down and blew up, I should think it killed ‘em all, must have done, anyway, the chap behind him couldn’t stop, so he kept going, he had to do and we thought he was coming down, well he went through the smoke you see, and the bloody thing, I’m not lying, it bloody rocked like that it did, you know, there for a bit wan’t it you know, seeing it, [unclear] couldn’t stop you see, cause you know very well, once one had gone when they give ‘em the green, he gave the other bloke a green and all and he was only half way down the runway, you know.
MC: Too late to stop.
CL: Cause we used to go, sometimes late at night, but when it was not dark but just getting dark, you get me, just to see ‘em in day, half daylight, some of the WAAFs and some of the ordinary air force blokes used to be there, you know waving to ‘em see, and you know off they went and that was it. One behind the other, like.
MC: Yes they used to wave them off regular.
CL: Course that way, going over Lincoln, cathedral way wan’t they. Oh aye, but when, that did upset us a bit when you see them two dead blokes, not a lot like, cause you’re lads aren’t you, but you remember it, you know, but we didn’t see any more cause, oh there was a, by the time in minutes like, there was RAF fellers there you see, and we said something to this RAF bloke about these here chaps like, oh he said clear off you lads, no place for you which it wan’t, you don’t realise do you? We was about twelve I think, something like that you see, so we hopped it like.
MC: So did you see any of the airfield, did you get on to the airfield after, you know, after the war?
CL: Well I used to bike by see, going in to town well when the war finished, they wan’t long taking the Lancs away was they, then that stacking sommat on it, I don’t know, big pipes, big bloody great pipes, they stacked them on there they did, and if I remember right, you know as you go now, to the roundabout on the left hand side, is there some old broken down concrete building, rubble? You know just before you turn, can you remember those gamekeepers places?
MC: Gamekeeper cottages.
CL: Well just by there, well that was a bomb wasn’t it. And petrol wan’t it.
MC: And petrol I think, yeah.
CL: Course not so long ago they found oil there, didn’t they.
[Other]: I’m not aware.
CL: Oh! You know when they were doing the roundabout, the second time, bulldozing about there, they reckon they found tanks full of bloody oil, from the war, you know, they was buried wan’t it. Anyway I wondered if it was still there, cause it was there for years, but that was the way in wan’t it to the, cause they used to have a guard on cause when we was lads guard we used to mooch about there and the guard used to tell us off you know, [laughter] you know but you did, didn’t you, you know.
[Other]: You told me you got on to the aerodrome one day with a, in a gravel truck from Wisby’s.
CL: Some what?
[Other]: As a passenger in a gravel truck, there was some -
CL: Oh aye, yeah. Aye well Atkins they call the firm. The had some women driving for them in the war time, they was six seven tonners, you know, well the gravel pit down there, Tealors, where dad worked, they used to go there you see and leave stuff for tea on, and it was a Saturday morning and Mrs Foster you call this lady what drove this one, she said to mam like, if you want to go to town, it’s my last load I’ll pick you up and take you, but we’ve got to go on to the airfield first and drop a load of sharp sand off you see, so anyway she did picked mam up and I went with her, [unclear] and we turned up there and through the guard room and there used to be an hanger there didn’t there, just through there and huts like, RAF ones, and the officers mess that side and anyway she pulled up at the guardroom she said to the sergeant or whatever he was, I’ve got this sand for you know so-and-so, oh he said you want to go through there duck, he said and near that hangar. Of course off we went and we got to the hangar and she said to a RAF bloke where do you want it and he said well tip it near the door, and there was a Lanc stood there and they’re putting this bloody great bomb on it, this four thousand pounder you know, just hoisting it up. Course she said to this air force chap what’s that, oh he said it’s a four thousand pounder. She said well you’d better sign my ticket, [laughter] let’s be off, she said, bugger this! But it wouldn’t have gone off anyway would it, if they’d dropped it, you know, I don’t think.
MC: A weight [unclear] down.
CL: Well they was just hoisting it in. Cause they used to take one four thousand pounder didn’t it, and so many incendiaries didn’t they? You know, full load. Because you see I got called up and I went to Berlin and it was a hell of a mess, you know.
[Other]: See it from the other end.
CL: Aye. They plonked that place, The Russians did an all, because the Russians, the Russians came in from their part where we were stationed at Spandau and they bloody knocked everything down there though.
MC: So when did you go to Berlin? When did you go to Berlin?
CL: It’d be 19, let’s see 1954, ’53. And we’re camp right, you’ll probably not know, you probably will, they called it Spandau jail, well we was opposite that. And it was a three stories high building and I was on the top floor luckily, and do you know who was there in that jail, I’ll give you a guess: Hess. There was Hess and what d’you call it armament minister, Speer, they was bloody big chaps oh bloody, cause we was up the top you see and you could see over the wall, and the, oh and there was a general, I don’t know who he was, he pegged out while we was there like and they used to let ‘em out inside, and as a hunger march if you get me, you know, walking round right, and they let Hess out cause he, I reckon he did about ten year didn’t he?
MC: Hmmm. Don’t know.
CL: Yeah, about ten year. They let him out, and Hess, Hess was the only bloke, oh the other, the general died there, that’s right, war criminal. They let Hess out I think.
[Other]: They let Speer out didn’t they.
CL: Speer out, that’s it, That’s it, and Hess was there. D’you know they had all these bloody blokes guarding the place for one feller, and if he was badly you know, they used to get him in the bloody ambulance, take him down the military hospital, looked after him like a lord, but they’d got all, all these guards round, on the top, electric fence outside, and the Russians did it for three month, we did it three, the Yanks did it three and the French did it three cause it was in four sectors, wan’t it, and they used to give lectures sometimes you know, some of these officers, and they used to say there’s about twenty divisions of Russians over the border, I thought what the hell can you do with that, there was only about three or four hundred of us and a few more others like. Wouldn’t have stood a chance, would you? Not really like, that’s how it was, wan’t it.
MC: So what was Berlin like in those days?
CL: Well it was you know, knocked about bad like, but I mean didn’t seem bothered much, not with us lot, well a lot of the places the pubs was out of bounds, you know, but the one what was near us we could go in that one. I always remember it because [unclear] bloke I told you didn’t I, ex SS sergeant, he’d been in the SS you know, big bloke like you, but he took that on like, but he didn’t bother us, or any bugger else like, it was business, wan’t it. But one night, I don’t know what happened, we wan’t out that night we heard this here well, bloody dogs barking, you know, outside on the road, away from the pub, the pub was about two three hundred yards down like, and they set about this bloke, this American chap these dogs, it appears he’d set the dogs on him like for some reason, I don’t know what, Yank like, one of them was a nasty Alsatian and bull terriers is it, or sommat and they was savaging him like and luckily our guardroom wasn’t far off and the guard went out and bloody murdered him they would, and he was shouting and bawling this here Jerry you know, anyway military police come and they all cleared off somewhere, they worried him, savage dogs wan’t they. I don’t know what happened mind you, you know, sommat in the pub like, anyway. Aye, bit of history isn’t it.
MC: That was National Service was it?
CL: Yeah. Well I signed for three year. I wouldn’t want to come out you see, I told you didn’t I, was going to go over with the battalion to Malaya, but mam and dad was struggling like in them days, as you know, there’s two or three more they’d got you see.
[Other]: Rationing was still on.
CL: I came out to help them a bit like.
MC: So what were mum and dad doing in those days.
CL: Well dad worked in the gravel pit, he worked about forty year, dad.
[Other]: Most of the gravel going for the airfield construction was it?
CL: Well I took a lot to RAF Coningsby, you know when they first did it for the Vulcans don’t you, 1952 was it? No ’53. ’55 that’s it, cause I didn’t come out till ’54, now, ’55, ’56 and they extended all the runways didn’t they, you know, for the Vulcan.
MC: When you came back from National Service.
CL: Pardon?
MC: What, when you came back from National Service, you went working there?
CL: I went back to, I worked there when I was a lad you see, luckily they wanted somebody to drive locos, can you remember [unclear] Hornsby’s Locos, and them down there you see, and Tubbs, take the stuff out and machine it all in took the machine then you took it up the plant you see, and they wanted somebody to drive it and when I left school you see I was lucky to get that, I did that for three year but you know, soon as you, seventeen and a half you all had to register, but if you was on the farm they didn’t bother you, but anywhere else they took you, cause that was it like, the way. When we went to Lincoln for six month there, no six weeks rather and they split us up in the end, there was about eighty of us in the intake and the forty went to Warwick for Korean training and I was in the forty what was sent on leave and we was going to the Sherwood Foresters in Germany, and they gave us a leave like, well it was a fortnight they gave us, but I got a telegram after a week: report back to the barracks, Lincoln for posting to Warwick for Korea. Well when we got to Warwick you see for the Korean training, the lads what we, you know, had gone there they was going to Korea anyway, they was all cheering and shout [laugh], you know, they thought oh lads, it serves you right you buggers like that. Of course we were all trained you know, I went through bloody murder there, didn’t half put it, I mean they put ‘em through it today, but they did, we went to Wales, up to North Wales there, bloody [unclear] up them mountains, full packs and everything, wet through, you know and the sergeants shouting, bawling at you, but I’m kidding you but when you got to the top you couldn’t have done nowt, if a bloody bloke had come and pushed you you’d have fell back, hard out and that was it, but that’s what you went through, in’t it.
MC: Yeah.
CL: We did all live hand grenades, there was big boxes them days, with about thirty in I think, thirty six mils grenade they was and they was all lathered thick with grease, you know, and of course the sergeants they were, knew what was on ‘em, take the mickey out of you. Two apiece lads he said and clean ‘em up and if you’ve left specks on back they don’t go off! The buggers they, rubbing like hell, you know, you would do, you [unclear]. When we’d done it they’d look at ‘em like and say they’re all reet. But he put the charges in you see, cause they’re very ticklish, You screwed the baseplate up and put the hammer down with the pin through and then you took it out, the base plug and put the charge in, it was so long and you had to get hold on it, not the actual part at the bottom, the wire type like, and put it in like that and then screw the cap back up tight, you know, and then it was ready for throwing you know. When we’d done that like, it was right get in that trench they said, they’d forty gallon drums about thirty, forty yards away, you know, and they said we want you to drop ‘em in there if you can, you know, somewhere. Anyway it come to my turn like, he said prepare to throw and when he said that you pulled the pin out, throw the bugger down, you see, throw, and then like that and then he said throw, and when you let go that was it, it shot off and the fuse went off you’d about five seconds. Well I got straight down and the sergeant got hold of me and get your bloody head up and start counting! Cause you had to count to about four, then he says get down and didn’t have the base plug, it always went backwards, the base plug and it was like a metal, you know, and you could hear it go over you, if it hit you like it would go through you, aye. That was the first’n you know I chucked like, but after that I always got down, you know, it, oh it was an experience and that was it.
MC: So when, going back to Berlin, I’m just interested in, you saw Berlin obviously Bomber Command did a lot of raids in Berlin
CL: Oh ay.
MC: I just wondered how much had been rebuilt or what?
CL: Oh there was some rebuilt, but a lot of it was like, I reckon, I told you, we went to Hamburg on a fortnight’s course, but that was from Goslar, you see when we first went to Germany we was the foot of the Harz mountains and it was an ex-Luftwaffe fighter base, you know, the mountains was here like that and half of Goslar was on the hill and half in a flat like and then of course you got the airfield you know and we went there first, and then we did two year there and that’s when they moved us to Berlin. Well we left Goslar at eleven o’clock at night the train, cause we had to go through the Russian sector you see. We was only about two mile out on it anyway.
MC: I was going to ask how you got in to Berlin. By train was it.
CL: So we went you know, round the mountains, and through Leipzig I think it was, the train stopped at different stations, but it said, the bloke, sergeant told us don’t lift the blinds up. I did, I said to my mate, I’ll have a look here, pulled up. I reckon it was Leipzig or somewhere and there was an East German copper on the platform, I think they wore a green uniform and the West German had blue like, anyway he looked but didn’t say owt like, and I dropped it again and we got to Berlin Spandau station at oh, let’s see, about seven o’clock in the morning, we started eleven at night, was a long way, you know cause we went round the mountains you see. When we got there, the CO, Lieutenant Colonel Wilson, he was injured bad in the war, and he had a, his back I think, mostly, he used to, he could walk round like, but he was always bit you know, but if we was going any distance he’d have a jeep. But he didn’t this time, they lined the battalion up like, he had the band there, it was a cracking band the Lincolns was, you know, and off we went, we had about a mile from Spandau station to the barracks like, and he marched in front of us, all the way you know, and the band got all their skins on you know, and Jerries was there, it was about half past seven that was, going through the streets you see, looking out the window, don’t know what they thought like. But he did it though, lad did, yeah.
MC: Yes, so you did three years, in, as National Service, well you signed on for three years did you.
CL: Yeah. Well as I say I was going to come out but with mother being that and dad suffering, you know, not too good yeah, and that was it like, and then I worked on the gravel pit for forty year, driving that thing in the corner there, on the photo, [laughter] sommat similar. They was hard work they was.
MC: That’s a picture of a Bucyrus crane is it?
CL: Yeah. Bucyrus. Yeah, but you know, well that wan’t too bad, it was air control, you got the short levers, but the old fashioned ones we had for the start for donkey’s years, the levers was like arms, you shove ‘em in and out, hard work like, now, you know, which you want it to be, they just touch a lever don’t they and what have you. Aye, that airfield though, don’t know if I tell you, when Mrs Foster see them bombs, that was it! You know, she was oop, sign this mate, [laughter]
[Other]: Wasn’t going to hang about!
CL: And that was it like.
[Other]: Was the airspace round the [unclear] active, was there aircraft all the time?
CL: Oh aye. Sometimes, would it be after D-Day, they was coming back in daylight, in morning, and coming back there were bloody lumps out their wings, bits out the tail you know, engines stopped, cause they’ve got landing lights all round here, you know they put ’em up didn’t they later in the war, and they used to go right round didn’t they, in a circle, give them a bit of an idea I think and if they was going to land this way in, from this way like, which they did sometimes, they was shooting those red flares out and I suppose they’d bring ‘em down first would they, they got wounded I should think on board, you know, but you know, as I say the engines stopped and bits out of the wing or tail, you know, flak I should think, I don’t know.
MC: Yeah. Fighter attack anything like that.
CL: But you knew a chap didn’t you flew from there, didn’t you, what flew from there? He was air gunner won’t he?
[Other]: No, he was an engineer.
CL: Engineer was he. Well he was at the side of the pilot wan’t he. I was looking at that one at East Kirkby you know, there was nowt to see it, where flight engineer was, it was only a little square bit, wan’t it, and drop it down, no lap room was there.
MC: Not a lot of room, no not very comfortable.
CL: They must have been tired when they come back, I mean Berlin must have been what eight hour run there and back, must have been tired, you know wan’t they. You know, well pilot he’s got an armour plate han’t he at the back. Oh no, Berlin, oh I was going to tell you. I went on a course for a fortnight, to Hamburg, that was [unclear] I told you didn’t I. In the middle, I don’t know if you’ve ever been there, since like, but in the middle of the city there’s this big well, like Lincoln is, but a lot bigger, a lake, you know and along there I’ve never seen so much brick rubble in my life, thousands and thousands of tons they took, you know, they really hammered that, they must have done. but on the outskirts where we was, it was hardly touched, you know, the outskirts of it, but it was really gave it some, thumped it.
MC: So they must have been pretty accurate with the bombing.
CL: I bet it was. Mind you, look what they did to London, you know. Thirteen weeks wan’t they, continual bombing, so they say, you know.
[Other]: The blitz.
CL: Aye. We used to go over there regular like, just to watch ‘em. One, it was a light night after D-Day it was about six or seven, maybe eight queuing up like, and then they just stopped and stopped the engines, and they were all seemed to sat in their planes for quite a while, so whatever happened I don’t know. But they stopped the lot like, you know, for a reason, they must have done, cause normally they just ticked over, didn’t they, till the time was right like, so they must, we cleared off then like, and well they wan’t moving and that was it like. But they must have gone later on. Probably sommat wrong was there.
MC: Probably cancelled the operation or something stopped them taking off, maybe an aircraft stopped on the end of the runway.
CL: Yes. They lost a lot of men here though didn’t they.
MC: Yeah.
CL: I read sommat about, not so long ago they dropped the biggest bomb loads from here didn’t they, in the war.
MC: They dropped most [unclear].
CL: During the war.
MC: I think they held some of the records amount of bombs dropped.
CL; I was going to say sommat like that I read.
[Other]: Did you ever meet any of the aircrew off the airfield?
CL: No, that one, only that one what cleared us off like, that one bloke you know when we told him about the fellers, hop it you don’t realise do you, you know. I mean you don’t sort of take it to, do you, you know.
MC: Cause at that age you wouldn’t have got in to any of the pubs anyway, to meet them.
CL: The huts, I don’t know if you knew where they was, where the non-commisioned officers was. Sergeant pilots and navigators, do you know where they was?
MC: No.
CL: You know, do you know when you go where, now then, it’s where, did you know where the old guardroom was? Opposite that lane, where you used to go down that path, well on the right hand side going that way, now, you know, to Lincoln, that was the huts there, and there was sergeant navigators and non-commissioned officers. Officers was farther up on the right cause you could see ‘em through the window playing snooker and that like, you know until the sergeant moved us off like. Cause he was, well the guardroom was there you see, and there’s always somebody on that. But we used to go in there because sometimes they was kicking a ball about, you know, when they wan’t flying and have a bit of a do with them like. I can remember, all them years ago, but I can remember once when I was there, playing, having a kick, they went on the speaker horn aircrew report to the whatever it is, you know, briefing room like, and of course they all cleared off then what was fliers like, you know, and I see them go out that night like you see, you know. All them years ago though, don’t it seem queer. Sometimes I forget things and yet I can remember that. Queer innit? You know.
MC: Well, I think that’s, that’s pretty good, thanks, Colin, that was a great interview and thank you very much for talking to me.
CL: Ah I don’t, yeah well, there was, bloke landed the Lancaster, he must have come back for some reason with his load on. In the morning it was stood in the field, you know where that restaurant is now, it was a field then of course, just a little dyke and a fence, and he’d come back with his load, and we didn’t know like, but he’d gone through the bloody crash gates, and over the road and through the fence and finished up, in, it was ploughed up a bit there at that time, that field and then the ploughing you know, and that’s where it was, course lads you see off they went, when we see it, they nearly got there, and of course there’s an RAF chap on guard, you know, and said, we said sommat, go on hop it lads he said, the bugger’s still loaded up well he was stood there so if it had gone up he would have gone up and all, that was his job wan’t it like, he cleared us off like, you know. Then another time we happened to be down there looking over the crash gate and the one came in from Lincoln way, whether it was doing an air test or sommat I don’t know, anyway, he came in to land and he touched down and he hadn’t been down two three minutes and bloody great bang and his tyre busted and it chucked him, I’m not kidding you, it went like that it did, he couldn’t hold it I think, fair bit of speed on that, he’d only just touched down, and of course he went on the grass so far and then stopped. The tyre was busted like. It was maybe doing air test cause they did they, they used to take off and go round and land in again didn’t they, you know. Oh aye, did you know about them bombs, stick of bombs what dropped down there. Well just before you get to the wood where that house, old house was, they dropped three I think, one night, Jerries. One landed in the field on the left hand side as you’re going down there, another one dropped half way on the road, blew half the road up and half the dyke, and the other one went over the wood, and a land mine it was, and they dropped and just over the wood like, and course it went up, and the landmine, oh hell of a, hell of a big hole and a lot of clay, you know, a lot of clay in the land there.
[Other]: Was that on [unclear]
CL: Aye, them first two was, yeah, cause I can remember ‘em filling that one up, it took half the road up.
MC: That was the crossroads.
CL: Yeah. No, ordinary road like, just before you get to where the bomb dump was, furthest away, end of that wood there, then you get a bit of a field don’t you, and it blew half the road up and half the dyke. Well they filled it up with all sorts: bricks and tins and you know what have you. But the other one in the field it, I don’t know what they did with that, but the other was a land mine and it went over the wood towards the Whisby side, do you get me, over the top and it was solid clay, well it put this place in here, in the war, you know, well it was dropped at night, wouldn’t it dop, you reckon they would be aiming for the [unclear] bomb dump? Well they wasn’t far off it, was they?
[Other]: Bomb dump.
CL: Wasn’t far off it was they. Bloody hell.
[Other]: They’d have had the airfield mapped out.
CL: Yeah. I mean, but, if it had gone, well the bomb dump well I don’t know would have blown the whole lot up wouldn’t it? Ain’t there some places now in the wood?
[Other]: Yeah.
CL: You know as you go down the bypass. What are they? Toilets, or just sheds?
MC: There’s bits of the bomb dump still there.
CL: Oh is there?
MC: Yeah, RAF Sculthorpe, yeah, bits of the bomb dump still there.
[Other]: Some air raid shelters, flash pens, all the roads, the concrete roads still there.
CL: Oh I could tell you another thing, I don’t know if you’re interested. When, when we was at Goslar I got one leave, well, some of them had two, I only had one, anyway we used to catch the train from Goslar to Hanover, then get the main line one from Brunswick to Hook of Holland, you know, leave train, and we was going towards Bielefeld they called it, or Biedefield one of the two.
MC: Bielefeld.
CL: The army prison was there, British Army, you know, anyway [chuckle] we was going in to there from Goslar and the other line was coming from the Ruhr, you know the valley as they called it, and there’s a big viaduct there, you’d have heard about it dozens of times, they bombed it and they couldn’t hit it, could they, well the holes right on the, the holes was there if you get me, round it, but they’d all grassed over, but you could see where they’d hit it, they hit it with a Tallboy didn’t they?
MC: That’s the Bielefeld Viaduct, yes.
CL: Yeah. It made quite a - have you seen it, did you see it?
MC: I’ve seen pictures of it.
CL: Well it made quite a big hole in it, one of Barnes Wallis’ little Tallboys, you know, like they dropped on that ship, whatever it was.
[Other]: Tirpitz.
CL: Yeah. But as I say, all the bomb holes was round, you could tell where the bombs had dropped like, you know, they was grassed over like, you know. Cause it used to come from the Ruhr valley I think, like Essen and all that, cause we went all through them, you see on the train, Essen, it was flattened, that Krupps factory, but do you know, I’m not lying, there was a hell [emphasis] of a chimney stack stuck up, and all round it was flat, rubble, and it was still stood up, aye, at that time, yeah. Well they’d take it down, no doubt because it’d be dangerous wan’t it but, really marvellous wan’t it, you know, all flat round it, massive factory all run up the side of the railway, you know, hell of a factory, aye. But Berlin though, I mean, I know they hammered it, but, I told you about them cemeteries, didn’t I, lot of RAF blokes there, cause we used to from Spandau on the tram, down from Spandau to the main part of Berlin to the picture house and the NAAFI, and there was a sort of a subway of a bit and of course there was a cemetery there, it was war graves commission then like, but got stones up, but it said RAF on some of them, well all of them, but there was names to some, but some had just got RAF Unknown you know, so they would find them. But like I told you, the Germans looked after it, when we was there, they had our uniforms these chaps what was, British Army uniforms, but they’d got GSO on here stands for sommat, what it was I don’t know, they were dyed black if you get me, instead of our colour, they’d dyed ‘em all, but they used to work for the army I think, you know cause when I was at Goslar they used to drive cars about and that for us, you know cause we had to walk, when we wanted to go into town, we had to walk about two miles from Goslar, from where we were like, and they used to stop pick you up like, they wan’t, you know didn’t seem to hold it against you, mind you they were getting money wan’t they, working you know, pick us up and take us in to town like, or if you was coming back take you back to camp like. I’ll tell you, you’ll maybe not be interested but we used to go on route marches and we went to Belsen, we used to go through Belsen you know, that was a village like, before you got there, rough old roads they was, rough as hell they were, like bloody great stones in the muck, you know, when you got off the good road, like. And there was a place there where scrap, where, scrap, must have been because they was engines, railway engines they’d holes in them all over, but there were dozens and dozens on this here line you know, waiting to be took and broke up I think. Well they were shot up like, bloody great holes in the side of the boilers and all sorts like, aye, they’d hammered it a bit like, didn’t them Typhoons used to go for ‘em, aye, shoved a rocket in ‘em see.
MC: Did a lot of damage.
CL: Oh I don’t know, you’d maybe not want to know, but I told you I think, it was operational for a start, wasn’t it, Wigsley cause took the Hampdens from here, they went to Wigsley, but before they finished it - we lived at that Spalford at that time you see, was only just up the road - there was the, can you remember them, Airspeed Oxfords, trainers they was. Well before they done the airfield they was training blokes you know, cause they’d done the runway and they didn’t take much runway, so they’d land in, and then cut off and come back and keep going round and round, do you get me, and that like, and there was a big drain at yon end, Spalford end, big dyke, you know, massive, and when the Hampdens went away it went to one of the training units off of operations, on to training, you know, and there was Lancs there, well one overshot the dyke, they went off the runway and plonked on this here big dyke, you know, course off we went, two three of us, there’s more of us there like, before we got there, you could smell, nobody there there wan’t like, the door was off, and it smelt of petrol. The first thing you could see when the door of this Lancaster, you know where they got in, that time, that one, I don’t know if later time, was the toilet, they had one didn’t they, but it was dead like you know, opposite the door they jumped out, it was theer, but you know, it stunk of petrol like, and there’s nobody about, so they’d overshot I think and then gone back to whatever and then afore that one, the, an Hampden, he overshot there as well and we did get in that. Well, there’s nobody about! The bloody hood was back, it slid back, didn’t it, you know, and the seat, I’m not kidding you, it was like the old fashioned bus seat, double, you know, and then there was a big steps down to the front wan’t there, you know, didn’t open up to ‘em much like, then the thin body, wan’t there. I don’t think there was a gunner at the back was there, not on there.
[Other]: There was yeah, upper and lower.
CL: Ah! Under neath, ah, they was like under. And you know we did get a look in that, a real good look like and then we cleared off like.
MC: Didn’t get any souvenirs then?
CL: No way, never thought of that, they smelt of petrol, or they would do wouldn’t they. We cleared off and got away with it. But there was a mill, when they built the runway facing over there, like that one came across here didn’t it, that one at Wigsley, there was an old mill at Spalford as you went in, you know the old fashioned mill and it was smack in line with the runway. Well you know when they thought it out, you’d have thought they’d have thought of that, wouldn’t you? Anyway I think the pilots complained, I don’t know and they took it down in the end, cause when they went OTU is it, training in unit, there was Lancasters there and all sorts going round, you know aye, and, aye bit of history to it in’t there.
MC: There is.
CL: Well I hope I’ve helped you a bit anyway.
MC: You used to go, get on the train and go down to the French NAAFI club.
CL: Yeah.
MC: That was when you was in Berlin.
CL: Yes, cause I had my birthday, twenty first birthday down there, there was a few of us went. We used to go on the rail car, you know, like the train, but you know the, like underground, but it wan’t, you didn’t go under it, and we used to go down on that from where we was about there and then get back on at night. And we was like [unclear] when we come out. We got on the station like and I said we want to go yon side, we want to be otherwise we shall be in the Russian Zone we go the other. Oh no, no, you know who they are don’t you, oh I said all right and we went to other side, no we stopped where we was, that’s it, and the train came in and we was going to get on and credit to him, to him, this Jerry, he was a guard or sommat like, oh no not that way! Ruski, Ruski, you know. [Laughter] We got out of there, I’ve been telling you now, we had to cross over, we wanted other side you see, to get back and that. But credit due to ‘im. Well one or two of them did go over into the Russian Sector, by mistake, and they kept them about three weeks, you see, oh aye, didn’t do nowt to ‘em, they just locked ‘em up I think. Well I said to ‘em, I said, I bloody told you we didn’t want to be there.
[Other]: Splendid person. Good days of twenty one [unclear].
CL: Twenty one, fancy having it there, where Adolf used to be. Aye, I don’t I can tell you much else mate.
MC: Thanks once again for that Colin, that’s great, thank very much for your time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Colin Lloyd
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALloydC180823
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:03:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Lloyd was born in 1933 in Torksey, Lincolnshire. He recalls hearing Mr. Chamberlain’s broadcast on Sunday 3rd September 1939. His father got a job in 1942 at the gravel pits near Whisby and they moved to that area. Colin describes being close to RAF Skellingthorpe and watching aircraft taking off and landing. On one occasion the airfield was bombed by two Ju 88’s. He also recalls when an aircraft failed to remain airborne after taking off, crashed back down, and exploded. As a young boy, he often went exploring around the edge of the airfield with his friends. They also saw bombers flying overhead towards Europe on operations.
After the war, he got a job at the gravel pits as a crane driver. He completed part of his National Service in Berlin during 1954 and was based in the Spandau Jail where Rudolf Hess and Albert Speer were held. He describes the damage to Berlin caused by the Russians and allied bombing. Colin also recalls visits he made to Belsen, the Bielefeld viaduct, and the Berlin Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1944
1953
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
Ju 88
Lancaster
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
RAF Sculthorpe
RAF Wigsley
Tallboy
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/936/11293/PLunnR1601.2.jpg
fda5c96e9a63672691e6276a70b55a7b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/936/11293/ALunnR161103.1.mp3
e1a12a500401e925ed38b3d632eff028
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lunn, Reginald
R Lunn
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Corporal Reginald Lunn (b. 1922, 909634 Royal Air Force). He served as an engine fitter.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lunn, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre on Thursday the 3rd of November 2016. The interviewee is Reg Lunn and the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is being conducted at the [deleted] Ok Reg. What we’ll, we’ll go on with what we were talking about is that you, you tell me you were —whereabouts you were born and when.
RL: Hmmn?
MC: When and where were you born?
RL: I was born in Fulham, London SW6.
MC: That was in —
RL: 1922.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. And then, and what was, whereabouts did you go to school?
RL: I went to what they call Fulham Central School. A very good school. And I was there when I passed the scholarships there. And, and then —
MC: Enjoyed those school days then?
RL: Pardon?
MC: You enjoyed those schooldays then.
RL: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. No regrets at all. No.
MC: Yeah.
RL: No. As I say no regrets to more than six years in the air force.
MC: Yeah. So how old were you when you left school?
RL: How old was I?
MC: How old were you when you left school?
RL: About fifteen and a half.
MC: Yeah. So what did you do?
RL: I left early. I left early to start an apprenticeship. Yes.
MC: Yeah. What? Doing what? What was the apprenticeship?
RL: In the printing trade. Yes. Letterpress. Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Yeah. On a, on a big one. [unclear] big machines. Not the, not the small ones.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So, the, so what made you choose to join the air force then?
RL: Oh. Most of my schoolfriends. They, they were in the air force. Unfortunately a lot of them got killed on operations. I used to go home on leave and my mother would say, ‘Poor Don was killed in, on operations.’ Yes. And that was that.
MC: So, you, when you joined the air force you went straight into ground crew. You selected to —
RL: Oh yes. Yes.
MC: Did you say you’d applied to go to aircrew?
RL: Sorry?
MC: You said you applied. You applied for aircrew.
RL: I did apply twice. Yes. Yes. And twice I passed the selection board. Yes. Well, yeah well except you go and and have a medical. And go to the medical. And as soon as they said medical I knew I was finished because I knew I was colour blind. And, yes and after about two minutes, ‘Sorry. Unfit for aircrew,’ and that was that. I was out.
MC: And so you were then, you then selected, you were selected for ground crew.
RL: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MC: Did you get a choice of what trade you went for?
RL: Not really. Well, I suppose yes and no. I wanted to work on aircraft.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: So that, that was that actually.
MC: So you finished up as what? Engine fitter.
RL: Yes. Yes. You were called, called an engine fitter. Yes.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RL: Yes.
MC: Yeah. So when — when was that you joined up then?
RL: When I joined up. In ’43.
MC: How old were you?
RL: When I joined up? Nineteen.
MC: So you were born in 19 —
RL: ’22.
MC: ’22. So it would have been ’41 wouldn’t it?
RL: Yes. Yes.
MC: ’41. That’s about right. About ’41. Yeah. And where did you do your basic training?
RL: In the air force?
MC: Yes.
RL: Up in Blackpool. Squire’s Gate. That was the home for all of the training. Was up there. Training. Engine training.
MC: You did your engine training up there as well.
RL: Yes. Yes.
MC: As well as your square bashing.
RL: Yes. Oh yes [laughs] square bashing. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
MC: Yeah. How long was that, that for? How long did you do your engine training for?
RL: It was six months.
MC: How, so how many would be on your course? Would there be many?
RL: Just the same number of —
MC: What was accommodation like? Were you in billets or in hotels?
RL: Yes. In [pause] in civvy billets. Civvy.
MC: Oh civilian premises. Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Yes. Yes.
MC: The bed and breakfast type of accommodation.
RL: That’s right. Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah
RL: Six months there. And then from there we went to —
MC: Which, which aircraft did you — which engines did you work on when you were there in the training? Your training. All sorts?
RL: Mostly the American. Rolls Royce.
MC: Rolls Royce’s as well.
RL: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
RL: And [pause] It was mostly Rolls Royce.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Rolls Royce. Merlins? Did you work on —
RL: Merlins.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Went on a Merlin course to Bristol. That was, that was an interesting two or three weeks down there. Yes.
MC: Yeah.
RL: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So, when you finished your engine fitter training which was your first posting then?
RL: First place. In what was [pause] I think it must have been Wick.
MC: Wick. Yeah.
RL: Yes.
MC: And what aircraft did they have at Wick then?
RL: Well, not the aircraft but the engines mostly.
MC: Oh, were they?
RL: Yes. Mostly engines.
MC: So, they didn’t have any — so Wick was, was it, it wasn’t Coastal Command then, was it?
RL: Oh it was. Oh yes. 48 Squadron. Yes. Sunderland. Sunderland and Hudsons. Yes.
MC: Oh Hudsons. Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
MC: Oh so it was 48 Squadron.
RL: Eh?
MC: 48 Squadron.
RL: 48 Squadron, yes. Yes. Yes. And they had, they broke up and was posted overseas but I didn’t go with them.
MC: You didn’t go with them.
RL: No, I was posted farther south. Down to Alness and Invergordon. Down there. Yes. And again on Coastal Command. Yes. Yes.
MC: And what aircraft were there there then?
RL: They were the same. Just Sunderlands. Catalinas.
MC: Sunderlands and Catalinas. Yeah. Now which aircraft did you prefer out of the two?
RL: Oh, I think the Americans. Yes.
MC: Yeah [laughs] Everybody likes the Catalina.
RL: The Cats. Catalinas. Yes. Yes.
MC: Mind you they’re big aircraft the Sunderland, aren’t they?
RL: Oh yes. Yes.
MC: Sunderland Flying Boats. A big aircraft. So, so I mean are they, what’s the crews like on these aircraft? Are they a different number of crews? How many crew have you have on a Sunderland? And —
RL: About six, I think. Mostly six. Yes.
MC: But not so many on the Catalina.
RL: Oh a Cat’s only about three or four. Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Yes. Yes.
MC: Yeah. And you got plenty of flights on those.
RL: Oh yes. On test. I used to go on test flights. Test flights. Yes.
MC: Yeah.
RL: Flying around and around and around. Yes. Yes.
MC: So, and how long were you at Invergordon then?
RL: How long was it? Oh about three and a half years. Four years.
MC: Yeah. And accommodation like there. What was, it would have been in bed or in —
RL: Nissen huts. Nissen huts.
MC: Nissen huts. Yeah. Yeah. And did you get out much? You know, in the local area.
RL: We used to go to Inverness any time off we had but mostly it was all work work work work work work work.
MC: Yeah.
RL: And had an occasional day off and leave every about six months. That’s all.
MC: Yeah. So, what did you do on your days off? Did you go out much?
RL: I’d say we were so tired through working so non-stop. Non-stop. We didn’t go far. Far as the NAAFI and WO YMCA. Yes.
MC: Yeah. So when, I mean you said you got leave about every six months.
RL: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: How long? How long a leave did you get?
RL: Just about a week. Seven days.
MC: And you’d go home?
RL: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Go home. Yes.
MC: Take you a long time to get home then.
RL: It did. Hours and hours. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
MC: Did you get the train from Inverness?
RL: Inverness. Yes. And we’d go either Inverness Glasgow or Inverness Edinburgh. Yes. Well, a train from Invergordon to Inverness and then depending which leave you was on you either went to Kings Cross or [pause] or what else is there?
MC: Euston? Somewhere like that?
RL: Yeah.
MC: Probably not.
RL: No. Nothing to —
MC: So, how long were you at Invergordon did you say?
RL: About three and half years.
MC: Three and a half years. Yeah.
RL: Yes. Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. And then you enjoyed your time there? Did you?
RL: Sorry?
MC: You enjoyed your time there did you?
RL: Oh yeah. Yes. Yes. We worked hard and played hard. Yes.
MC: So, what, when, when you finished at Invergordon where did you go to?
RL: I came down south. Well, eventually I finished up at St Mawgan. Down there. That’s where I finished up. Yeah.
MC: One extreme of the country to the other.
RL: Eh?
MC: One end of the country to the other.
RL: Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes.
MC: Yeah.
RL: Yes.
MC: And what what aircraft did they have at St Mawgan then?
RL: Again, that was Transport Command. A bit of Ferry Command. Just for ferrying new aircraft from Britain to Europe. Yes.
MC: So, so you worked on quite a variety of aircraft there then.
RL: Oh yes. Yes.
MC: What sort of aircraft did you work on then?
RL: Well, again not a variety but as we said the Dakotas and Boulton Paul Defiants.
MC: Oh Defiants. Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Yeah, so —
MC: You mentioned Spitfires?
RL: Not much. There was Spitfires yes. But not a great deal.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Yes.
MC: They weren’t —
RL: Mostly transport rather than Fighter Command. Yes.
MC: Life was good down at St Mawgan then?
RL: Well, yes it was. Yes. Especially in the summer when, when we used to go down straight from work in the evening and just walk down to the beach. Down the cliffs to the beach and spend the evening down there. And that was, everybody had a good time. Yes.
MC: Yeah.
RL: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So you were, you were at St Mawgan until the war finished were you?
RL: Yes. I was demobbed from St Mawgan. Yes.
MC: When was that?
RL: In ’45.
MC: ’45. The end of — yeah. Yeah.
RL: Yes.
MC: Shortly after. Was it shortly after the end of the war or later in ’45?
RL: Well, [pause] about half and half. Half and half. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you never considered staying in.
RL: Well I did but then I thought all my friends they’d got demobbed and I don’t know, gradually back in Civvy Street. So, I thought well maybe there’s a lot in that. So I didn’t. I didn’t bother to sign on.
MC: Yeah. So, when you look back on those times you enjoyed them. Even though there was a war on.
RL: Oh yes. Never regretted a day. No.
MC: Even though there was a war on. Yeah. Yeah. So, when you went back to Civvy Street what —
RL: I went back in the printing trade.
MC: Yeah.
RL: Down there. And saw a few years down there. Yeah. Ten to four. We —
[recording paused]
MC: So, when you, after you went back into the printing trade and that.
RL: Yeah.
MC: And you met your wife after the war of course, you said.
RL: She was a nurse.
MC: Oh yeah,
RL: A nurse at —
MC: In London was that?
RL: One of the biggest hospitals in London.
MC: Guys.
RL: Guys. Guys, yes.
MC: Guys
RL: Guys. Yes. And then she qualified at Guys and then went to the eye hospital.
MC: Moorfields.
RL: Moorfields. Yes. Qualified there. Yes. And I met her at the Palais one, the Hammersmith Palais one Friday night.
MC: The famous Palais.
RL: Yes. Our second home down there. The Hammersmith Palais. Just walking distance from the Hammersmith Palais to where we lived. So that was that.
MC: So, you were a great dancer were you then, Reg? You enjoyed dancing.
RL: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
MC: Everybody did dance in those days didn’t they?
RL: Yes. They did. Yes. Yes.
MC: Seemed to do. Seemed to have done.
RL: Yeah. I read just a few months ago they’d knocked the Palais down.
MC: Oh had they? Yeah.
RL: Yes.
MC: I didn’t realise that.
RL: We was there about three or four nights a week. Yes. So, Sunday was mostly just dancing. Tuesday or Wednesday was to go on a — the pubs in Hammersmith down there before we went into the Palais. Yes. And that was that. Yes.
MC: So when was it you got married?
RL: In ’39. No —
MC: ’49? Must have been after the war.
RL: Sorry. Dear oh me. It was ’43. I think it was.
MC: Oh during the war. You got married during the war.
RL: No. No. No. After. A few years after the war. Yes.
MC: Don’t worry. And you had two children then.
RL: Yes. Yes.
MC: You said. Yeah.
RL: Yes.
MC: What were their names?
RL: Robert and Valerie.
MC: Oh, of course. Yeah. And lots of grandchildren.
RL: Yes. Yes.
MC: So, going back you don’t keep much contact with any of the former members of your RAF people in the RAF?
RL: No. No.
MC: You know.
RL: No.
MC: After the war you —
RL: Just, just had two or three years but you know just drifted apart and that was that. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And did you get involved with the, any of the organisations?
RL: Oh, RAF Association.
MC: Yeah.
RL: I was one of the founder members.
MC: Oh right.
RL: Yes.
MC: In, in that area. Yeah.
RL: Yeah. And we used to meet two or three nights a week and we used to go out on different functions. Yes. Yes.
MC: Well, Reg I thank you very much for your memories of those days. And it’s, it’s great for you to let me talk to you.
RL: Well thank you.
MC: Really appreciate.
RL: Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
MC: Yeah.
RL: It brought back memories. I had to rack my brains for some of them. Yes.
MC: So, if there’s anything else you remember please don’t hesitate. But thank you very much, Reg.
RL: It was a pleasure. Yes. Yes.
MC: Much appreciated it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Reginald Lunn
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALunnR161103, PLunnR1601
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:17:19 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
Reg Lunn was living in Fulham and working as an apprentice printer when he volunteered for the RAF. He had wanted to be aircrew but he was colour blind and so failed the medical. He joined as an engine fitter and was posted to 48 Squadron at RAF Wick. He mostly worked on Sunderlands and Catalinas. In future postings he went on to work on Defiant and Dakota aircraft.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cornwall (County)
England--London
Scotland--John o' Groats
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
C-47
Catalina
Defiant
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Wick
Sunderland
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Title
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Maggs, Robert William
R W Maggs
Description
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An oral history interview with Robert Maggs (1853142, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 90 Squadron.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Maggs, RW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interview is taking place [deleted] in Lincoln. The date is Thursday the 10th of November 2016. The interviewee is Robert Maggs and the interviewer is Mike Connock. Ok, Bob, well the first thing is can you tell me a bit about when and where you were born?
RM: I was born in Brixton, South West London, SW2 and I grew up there until we got bombed out. My parents. My mum and dad and my sister. The four of us. I had two other brothers. They was in the army. And one was in the Royal Artillery. And one was in the King’s Royal Rifles and he got captured at Calais and, with four thousand other blokes and walked into Germany and spent the next four years in captivity.
MC: So what did your parents do for a living?
RM: Sorry?
MC: What did your parents do for a living?
RM: My, my father was a meat porter at Smithfield Market. And mum was a mum, you know.
MC: Yeah.
RM: She did spare work two or three mornings a week for a posh [unclear] around the corner called Kings Avenue. And that’s how I grew up.
MC: And what school? What was school life like?
RM: I went to school just down the road. Two hundred yards away. Past Jones’ the greengrocer. And we used to warm our hands in there in the winter. You know. I played football for the school. Not many times. I don’t know. Three or four times. And —
MC: You enjoyed your schooldays then.
RM: I enjoyed the school, yeah. But you know in those days money was hard. Father had a very tough job and he used to drink a lot because he was in the First World War and he got captured and ill-treated. And he was never, after about fifty I think he wasn’t much good really. Walking but mentally he was affected.
MC: So when were you born? What year were you born?
RM: Eh?
MC: What year were you born, Bob?
RM: I was born 1925. On the 1st of April. April Fool’s Day. I went to Park Road School. And New Park Road School because somebody decided to split the education at a certain age and concentrate the bulk of the education on the age, the older age. I played. I ran. I ran. I was a good runner. I got in the athletics of South London in Battersea Park. I didn’t win but nonetheless I took part.
MC: So you grew up. So when, at the outbreak of war you were a teenager.
RM: Yeah. I was born in 1925 and at ‘40 [pause] No. In 1940 I’d be fifteen. I remember we took a bike ride with a mate to a place called Croham Hurst Woods and we spent a Sunday morning in the park on our own. And I bought a bike to do the baker’s round. And that was it.
MC: So, what — so you left school at fifteen.
RM: Sorry?
MC: Did you leave school at fifteen?
RM: Yes. I left the school at fifteen. Just an ordinary. I worked for Noons and Pearsons in the West End. I used to travel up by train. [unclear] I think it was [unclear] train.
MC: What did you do for them? What sort of work was it?
RM: I think it was [unclear] train. And I stuck that job for about a year and then the bombing got more severe in the day and that in that period.
MC: What job, what work were you doing for that company?
RM: Just clerical work.
MC: Clerical work. Yeah.
RM: I was a sort of an official postboy. There were about a dozen of us because it was a great big building. It was a business they used to print control Humorist and Men Only and papers and that sort of caper. And I left there after about a year. I say about a year because it was about a year. Then I took a job on Brixton Hill in an architect’s office. Sorting out plans and a bit of work. I was on my own. I didn’t do any typing or anything like that. And then we got bombed out. I remember that. It was a Sunday. And the baker’s shop opposite got bombed out. Mr [Clow?] and his daughter got killed. It was a Sunday morning actually and so there was a lot of people about. The sirens blew and oh another, another raid. This time it was indirectly aimed at Brixton. On the same. Anyway we got bombed out of London and I wasn’t involved in talking about it. It was between the officials. And the next thing I knew I was following my father and mother and we moved to a place called Lancing. We could have stayed in South London I understand but anyway they decided to move away and so we went to Lancing. I’d never been to the seaside in my life. And it was ten miles from Brighton. Originally I think it was fifteen shillings a week which was a lot of money for father but he used to get a pension from some government body. Because as part of his war service he wore a silver badge and there were not many of them and he got a pension for that. About five shillings a week or something. Quite a, quite a lot of money. And anyway so he didn’t work. I got a job as a baker’s roundsman. I didn’t have an education. Not a worth one but I didn’t have any brains I suppose. And I, so we lived in this house and it was very nice. Modern. Nice country. And my father and I, he used to help me with the baker’s round and then the milk round when I got a different job. That was the West Worthing and we used to get the twenty past six train. I think it was twenty past six in the morning. Get to work about a quarter to seven and because we only went to West Worthing and then that was the stop we got off at. And then after that, I did that for — in the meantime I joined the ATC. It was the ADCC Air Defence Cadet Corps in London but they made a bigger body of it and called it the ATC. Air Training Corps. And I joined that at Shoreham. I had an interview and I was told that, by then I was about sixteen. I told them I was a good boy and did all the right things and didn’t push old ladies off the pavement. Which I wouldn’t do in anyone’s business at all. But I joined the ATC, I got a uniform which was the lure. It was the pride, and, and what was it then? Oh yes and from there I had my first go at flying. We went in a Catalina aircraft. Just out to the sea and back again.
MC: That was with the ATC?
RM: Yeah. With the ATC. On a Sunday morning. And a nice day anyway. It only lasted about ten minutes. And we used to circle and come down. It was very exciting and of course it fed the pangs of doing more and more and so I did. I took it more seriously and learned —
MC: Morse. Morse code.
RM: Yeah. That’s right. I couldn’t think of it. And I was taken in there and after six months they, if you were keen about joining the RAF which I was and I used to do two, two days a week. Two nights a week. And it meant coming home and rushing and changing into a uniform which was the be end and end all of everything. And anyway I had an interview for about twenty minutes. Physically I was told I was fit although I was thinking only the other day that my height was six foot nine and a half and to qualify for coming in the barriers you had to be six foot ten.
MC: Five foot ten. Nine and a half.
RM: Five foot ten. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Five foot —
RM: Otherwise you couldn’t join. Too tall for aircrew. Taller than you anyway. Anyway, and after six months I got a letter from the Ministry to say I’d qualified. I had another examination just to check everything was still alright and that was six months intervening and then I joined in London. Stayed in a block of flats with I think it was fifty or sixty blokes. All in one big pack.
MC: How old were you then?
RM: That was in nineteen [pause] I’m trying to — 1940.
MC: Nineteen forty — you must have been, were you eighteen?
RM: I was eighteen. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. That would be —
RM: That’s right. Yeah.
MC: It would have been 1943 wouldn’t it?
RM: I was eighteen on the 1st of April and I joined up around about that time. Of course it was very exciting for a young lad. Mixture of people really and to learn something about the excitement of flying aircraft. And I qualified. Not on the grounds of pilot. No. Pilot — no education. Navigator — no education, bomb aimer. I don’t know what qualified him. Jay Hartley his name was. He was an officer, I don’t know what he would be. And the pilot was a New Zealander and he’d, he’d joined in New Zealand for the American Air Force.
MC: This was your pilot.
RM: And he qualified as a, so he told me, he qualified as a, as a pilot and then he, he did his air training and all that and then he decided he’d take part in the action. So he volunteered for the RAF out there.
MC: When you first joined did you have to go through basic training with the RAF even though you’d been in the ATC?
RM: Yes. Yeah. I went to St Johns Wood where we used to have breakfast and basic lessons on flying and what aircraft meant and the shape of things. And what you were expected to control. And you used to have trips. Not many. Twenty at a time. For a day out to see the aircraft.
MC: So was it at this stage which selected what crew position you would be?
RM: Sorry?
MC: Was it at this stage that selected what crew position you would be?
RM: Yes. That’s right. They shoved it up. I mean I had a proper interview. Three officers I recall. And pilot, I didn’t have an education. Navigator I didn’t. Bomb aiming I didn’t. Wireless operator I didn’t like it. I didn’t like it at all so I didn’t. Wasn’t very keen. So you were just left with two gunners.
MC: So you trained as an air gunner.
RM: Yeah. Trained as an air gunner. And we went to Bridgenorth. We went from [pause] near Doncaster it was. To Bridgnorth. Bridgenorth. I think we went to, we jumped a course and we finished up on the Isle of Man. And I did four months on the Isle of Man and I qualified as an air gunner.
MC: So it was your gunnery training in the Isle of Man.
RM: Sorry?
MC: It was the air gunnery training in the Isle of Man.
RM: Yeah. Definitely.
MC: Yeah.
RM: Definitely. All of it.
MC: Oh right.
RM: I had the square bashing and saluting and all that you did at the ITW. Initial Training Wing. But the others you, the flying bit you did in the Isle of Man. And after two, after year, one year I qualified as an air gunner. They didn’t select you for a mid-upper or rear gunner. It depends on whether you was that big or that big or that big. That’s how they did it. Or they did when I joined. And that was it. And I joined a squadron with another escapee. Because we went to a place called Coningsby which was an OTU place.
MC: So was that crewing up? Or had you crewed up before then?
RM: Yes it was. It was for crewing up. It was a Sunday morning. Four hundred blokes stuck in a hangar. And a whole mixture of ranks and careers. And just by chance I chose another and he chose me. And as two gunners we offered our services around the, around the — and finished up with this New Zealander bloke. An English bomb aimer. An English navigator. Dickie Bush. He died actually a couple of years after the war. He was good. He wasn’t the sort of the flying type at all. Dickie Bush was, he just wanted to do his bit and found that he had the ability to do it.
MC: So did you, did you crew up just the full seven or did you fly — you know other training in Wellingtons or anything like that?
RM: Yes. We, we initially we — what were we flying? I think the once we got qualified we drove Wellingtons. So the gunners, well one of them had nothing to do, you know. So you used to switch over. As they say. A bit as a rear gunner. If you went out to Bristol on a square leg. You came back and you changed gunners a couple of times. You know, just different uniform really.
MC: Did — was that an Operational Training Unit? Was that?
RM: Yes. Actually yeah.
MC: Yeah. Can you remember what number it was?
RM: I might have it in my logbook. It would be in that drawer. You can take it with you. Take it —
MC: So. Yeah. That’s alright Bob. So yeah. I mean, obviously you said the Isle of Man for your Air Gunnery School. That was 11 Air Gunnery School at Andreas, Isle of Man.
RM: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And then you say you went on to the OTU. 11 OTU.
RM: Yeah.
MC: 11 OTU. Where was that? Can you remember?
RM: OTU wasn’t far from London. Buckinghamshire. Somewhere like that.
MC: Oh yeah. Right.
RM: I’ll have a trip down. We got into OTU. You flew from OTU because at that time we had a New Zealander pilot.
MC: Yeah.
RM: And he pranged a kite and I and me the other gunner decided enough was enough so we started sort of about being late and all that and in the end they sent us to the Isle of Man for three months I think. Three months. And all the boys really on the same, so they but he got a [unclear] so he spent a night at the working full training and all that. We spent, I think we spent six weeks there.
MC: Yeah. So that was all on Wellingtons was it?
RM: Sorry?
MC: That was all on Wellingtons. Wellington aircraft.
RM: Well, we didn’t fly in the air at all. We went to Sheffield and I remember walking from Sheffield. There’s a point and you go down there. We went to the town. Down there.
MC: Where was that?
RM: Sheffield.
MC: Oh right. Oh right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RM: Where they sent the, the naughty boys. So they called them. But most of them went on to be [unclear] people but the odd few just there for the glory or whatever. I was clearly disappointed so, but you can borrow that.
MC: So when you went to, after you finished at the OTU you went to a conversion unit did you?
RM: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
RM: Swinderby.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
RM: It’s called Swinderby.
MC: Yeah. That’s only down the road from here.
RM: We left there for the disciplinary course and we came back there and when we were told according to the flying officer or the gunnery leader and said we were in disgrace and we would be posted not with a crew but as an individual. And you’re going there. And you’re going there. But as it happened we both went to the same squadron. His name was Tom MacCarthy. He plays a relative part in the story. And he came from London. Paddington. And I came from Brixton in London. So we had something in common. After that he qualified. He didn’t have to qualify. He was already an air gunner, but he went with a Canadian crew. All Canadians and he was the only limey as it were. And he won the DFM actually. Shooting down an aircraft. And I used to go weekends to London with him to, well meet his mum and dad. And he had a younger brother, Bill. Billy MacCarthy. And he was younger than, younger than I. Then Tom, I can’t remember whether Tom did a first trip or I did. One of the two of us. And I forget where the target was. It’ll be in there.
MC: So you got posted to — which squadron did you get posted to?
RM: We got posted to Tuddenham. Tuddenham.
MC: Which squadron was that?
RM: 90. And it was near Newmarket. We used to spend a lot of evenings getting a few beers down the pubs in Newmarket. They used to send a lorry at 11 o’clock to pick us up.
MC: So social life was good.
RM: Oh yeah. Some of us were always late and nine tenths were drunk. But you know it seems a bit dramatic to say but people lived for the moment. I don’t know if they did. They enjoyed what they did put it that way. If two or one aircraft come back with shot up or crashed on landing or something like that two, two mates had gone you did your training with. So you came very close to reality. It’s difficult to say all those years ago.
MC: So what can you remember? All the names of your crew? When you got to 90 Squadron your skipper was a New Zealander you said.
RM: Yeah. You seem we’d got this South African there and he pranged a kite at OTU and so we decided, him and I, that the other gunner and I we didn’t want to know about him any more so we went spare again. And as a spare you went to the gunnery office every day to cleaning guns in the armoury or doing physical training. Or drinking in the pub.
MC: So your skipper was?
RM: And so —
MC: Was that Williams?
RM: After the South African, spare gunners. So we did two. I don’t know how many Tom did. But I did a couple of being there. A couple of gunners. Gunnery aircraft. I forget now. I don’t know if any —
MC: Can you remember your first operation?
RM: Sorry?
MC: Can you remember your first operation?
RM: Yes. A place called S. Solingen.
MC: Solingen. Yeah. Yeah.
RM: Solingen.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. That was with Flying Officer Williams. Flying Officer Williams.
RM: Yeah. That’s the —
MC: Yeah.
RM: New Zealand bloke.
MC: Yeah.
RM: Yeah. Rod Williams.
MC: Yeah. Who was your flight engineer?
RM: Who was what?
MC: Who was your flight engineer?
RM: Flight engineer. Reggie Breen.
MC: Oh yes. Yeah.
RM: Reggie Breen he was an ex-London policeman. Six foot six and all that. Could hardly get in the aircraft let alone put his head out. And he was a great bloke and he had a young team. He was nearly forty when he volunteered. He was that, with a pointed hat and all that malarkey, put it out and all that but he kept the younger team, even the pilot, ‘You shouldn’t do that,’ and all that. He put, he put the brakes on certain matters.
MC: He was the dad of the team.
RM: Yeah. He was the daddy. He kept the brakes on the madness.
MC: And your navigator? What was his name?
RM: Dickie Bush. He was the fellow that died. He was a very studious, serious bloke. Never drank and never smoked. Didn’t do anything the other pilots and navigators did. Took his job seriously and as a consequence we always felt we had the number one navigator in the squadron. And there would be justice in saying that.
MC: Yeah. And your wireless operator?
RM: Wireless operator came from Newcastle. I forget his name now. It’ll be down there somewhere.
MC: Yeah. And your bomb aimer? Do you remember his name?
RM: Jay Hartley.
MC: Oh that’s the one you said. Mentioned earlier.
RM: The other officer in the crew. There was the pilot. Williams. Rod Williams actually. He was an unusual nickname. And then Jay Hartley the other officer. Then we had the navigator.
MC: Bomb aimer. Oh no. You’ve said the bomb aimer.
RM: No.
MC: The flight engineer.
RM: Flight engineer.
MC: Yeah. You just said.
RM: He was a policeman.
MC: Yeah. You said. Yeah.
RM: And after, the other gunner was called Tom. Tom somebody. I should remember.
MC: So how, what was your experience of these raids like? Can —
RM: Well, it depends on the number really. Sometimes you had sixty go out. Another time you’d have six hundred. And the bigs I arranged they had a bigger number. But it seemed that way to me but I only talked a bit and discarded it.
MC: No close calls?
RM: Well. One. One. It was a daylight over — I forget the [pause] we got mixed up in some German was trying to shoot down another Lancaster in daylight. And the bombing range would be about, height would be about sixteen. Sixteen thousand. But of course as gunners you never got all this information until after you got back. Talking to the blokes, ‘Oh, did you really?’ All this sort of thing.
MC: Quite uneventful then. How many operations did you do?
RM: Thirty.
MC: You did thirty. The full thirty. Yeah.
RM: Yeah. I did thirty. At twenty five they had a big review because they could see the war was nearly finished and that was about —
MC: Yeah. Because that was in late ’44 wasn’t it? That was in late 1944.
RM: Yes. About early December ’44.
MC: Because you did —
RM: There was a big review. They extended the bombing trips. To complete the first tour you had to do twenty five. If you did live long enough and you did another one then you — how many was there? Fifteen I think.
MC: I mean —
RM: Only one bloke on the place had fifteen done.
MC: So, I mean looking at your logbook you did quite a few daylight raids.
RM: Oh yeah. The green were, the green were —
MC: Yeah. Daylight.
RM: That’s right. And the rest were black. Yeah. Saw, saw a lot of the action but it was, could be five miles away. Another time you could be at the, leading the stream in and the Germans would knock out the leading one. And the aircraft, the enemy aircraft seemed to stand off when there was densest. They used to break off and wait in a circle. So we were told. And make another attack and two or three attacks as we were coming out the other side. Generally, generally you lost two or three going in and maybe more flights and squadrons about. You never used to see them. You were told afterwards that, well before in fact it was estimated number was four hundred and ninety five if you like and when you, when you got to eighteen thousand on a clear day you could look across, see planes all at the same height but then they seemed to get nearer. They used to start moving. Moving that way and taking evasive action which was a dangerous thing to do. But as I say when you’re eighteen years old, nineteen years old I was scared, there’s no doubt about that but I could do my job but at the same time you realised that you was in a dangerous job. And you got well paid for it. You was earning, I think it was seven and six pence day as soon as you were [pause] Then I had that for a year and it automatically gave you air gunnery sergeant’s badge. Yeah. Flight sergeant.
MC: Yeah.
RM: And then you did another year and you got automatically they gave you a warrant, warrant officer. Because then you got a badge on your tunic then. You got an officer and all the rest of it and you hadn’t done anything different.
MC: So can you remember when it was you got your warrant officer?
RM: When I — well, it would be rather late. Probably be about March.
MC: ’45.
RM: Or April 1945.
MC: Right.
RM: Could have been a bit earlier.
MC: I noticed that you were on the Nuremberg raid in January ‘45.
RM: That’s right. Yeah.
MC: Do you remember that one?
RM: Not individually. As far as we were concerned from memory it was no different to any other midnight raid. It was a night raid.
MC: Yeah.
RM: And as a big raid we were told how many aircraft were scheduled to be in these. Close and things. And we saw, we went down low because by then the experienced pilots used to know when to go down or go up or go. And so our pilot he used to try and I’m not shooting a line, he was trying to get as much packed into every trip. So if he saw an aircraft didn’t know which way he was going he used to take it on and give it a lead. Not that the rest of us were pleased about that but he liked it.
MC: So did you get diverted many times on return?
RM: No. No. We were, the only time we got diverted we did a mining raid over [unclear] somewhere like that. Sweden. Norway. I mean we did eight hours. We finished up in Scotland. We landed in Scotland.
MC: Lossiemouth.
RM: Lossiemouth. That’s right. It wasn’t open. It was open as an aerodrome but we never saw it. We took off. Refuelled and did a five or six hour stooge down the spine of England.
MC: I also notice you were on Dresden. You did the Dresden raid as well.
RM: [unclear]
MC: Dresden.
RM: Dresden. Yeah. That was a long trip. I was quite proud to have done that. I don’t know why. But you know, memory. You talk about these thing and old memories flick up and you wondered if you were the person telling the story. And I don’t, after the war I was over and the New Zealander pilot went home. He was the headmaster actually. He became a headmaster. He came back and married a girl from where I lived. In Streatham in London. Yeah. And he came to see me and spent a couple of hours having a chat and that sort of thing.
MC: Do you remember anything about the Dresden raid? Because it is obviously was quite an infamous raid. Because it was —
RM: No. Nothing outstanding. As far as we were concerned. I’m not being modest. We took off with hundreds of others. I forget how many. I used to log. I had a separate diary. I don’t know whether I’ve still got it and I used to write my own personal views rather than the official thing.
MC: Do you still have that?
RM: I should really. It should be about. A little cheap volume. I did have it for years. I’m sure I’ve got it somewhere.
MC: So what — when you finished with 90 Squadron you finished thirty trips. Where did you go after 90 Squadron?
RM: Yes. Good question. I went back to Jurby I think it was. I did my training in Andreas.
MC: It says Egypt.
RM: Oh yeah. It was after that because —
MC: So from 90 Squadron you went to Middle East force in Egypt.
RM: Yeah. We, we they asked for ten crews. I think it was ten crews to go out and convert the blokes from Liberators down to Lancasters. Or up to Lancaster. Whatever. And we went out to Egypt. We did it in five or six weeks I seem to remember. Then we were posted to Middle East Command and transferred down to a place near Cairo. Seven or eight miles. And —
MC: Which squadron was that? Can you remember?
RM: Didn’t go with a squadron.
MC: Well I’ve got, your logbook says 40 Squadron.
RM: Well. It would be 40 Squadron.
MC: Yeah.
RM: And then I did, I did eight months I think. Something like that in all. And they said well if you don’t like Middle East Command and all the rest of it. So if you like it you can volunteer to come back. So I did.
MC: But you did quite a lot of flying in the Middle East. In Egypt.
RM: Sorry?
MC: You did quite a lot of flying in Egypt.
RM: Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, it was boring on the ground. Squadron, squadron leader with nothing to do. I mean the same day was the same as the next day.
MC: Yeah. The skipper in Egypt was a Flying Officer [Bleuring?]
RM: Bleuring. Yeah. He did come and see me. We did meet in Lancing. He was a nice fella. Different again. He wasn’t a hero type. But the New Zealand pilot I flew with on ops he, he wasn’t a show off but he liked to let people know he was an RAF pilot. Bomber pilot. So what he got up to in the officer’s mess we don’t know.
MC: So, you were out in Egypt for quite some time. When did you come back?
RM: Yeah. I thought we were out there about eight months. Could have been longer. Couldn’t have been longer because —
MC: So did you, did you decide to stay in after the end of the war? Did you decide to stay in the air force after the end of the war?
RM: No. No. The — we had an individual interview from the squadron and what did you intend to do in Civvy street, and it was named Civvy Street. Being in there I thought well this has been cut and dried already. So —
MC: Because I notice, I notice from you logbook you didn’t, you went back. When you left Egypt you came back to the Isle of Man.
RM: Yeah.
MC: Air gunnery school. As an instructor.
RM: Probably did. Yeah.
MC: As an instructor.
RM: As an instructor. That’s right. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
RM: To, to —
MC: But that was in, that was in May ’47 which is nearly two years after the war ended.
RM: 1947. Three months. Well, I retired on July I think. July of ’47. Something like that because I say that definitely because I got married to my wife in August. August 1947.
MC: So, did you enjoy the Isle of Man? Because you were obviously there twice. Did you enjoy the Isle of Man?
RM: Oh yeah. Yeah. I’d have liked, I’d have liked a job in the RAF. Now, apparently he’s been here. He became an officer. He did, ‘How many trips did you do, Bobby?’ I said. He said, ‘Thirty,’ — I did thirty nine, ‘Twenty nine rather.’ He said, ‘I couldn’t do another.’ ‘But you became a flight lieutenant.’ He said, ‘I did,’ he said, ‘I was.’ He went to India and Australia and New Zealand. He went all over the world with his wife. This bloke. And he had a good job. An air officer commanding training I suppose. And he stayed in and made a career of it. He stayed another ten years and they said well you know, time’s come. You’ve got to go, and all the rest of it. So he told me. He was here two months ago. He’s, he’s retired now. He lives in a village six miles from Lincoln. I could give you his, I mean it would be a matter of record.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So he came to visit you here.
RM: If you wanted to get another story. A different type of story probably.
MC: Yeah.
RM: Then he’d be the bloke.
MC: Yeah. So your logbook says you finished on 28th of July 1947.
RM: Yeah. 28th of July. And I got married. [unclear] unfortunately.
MC: You got married in July. Just after that.
RM: I got married in August the 23rd. August the 23rd ’47.
Other: Yeah.
MC: And where did you meet her?
RM: I met her in the, I was going to the pictures at Lancing not far from Worthing. Two miles from there. It’s a very small seaside place.
MC: So, you knew her before the war. Knew her before the war. You met her before the war. In Lancing.
RM: No. No. No. No.
MC: This was when you went back home.
RM: I was on six day leave. Seven day leave, and went out to the cinema. And coming out I noticed this girl and chatted her up and we got married, you know.
MC: And that was in ‘47.
RM: We had two children.
MC: So what did you do after the war then? Once you were —
RM: Oh no. No.
MC: Got back home. Got married.
RM: Well, I got married. I was a baker’s roundsman. I used to work for the Co-op and you get your job back automatically. So I stayed with the Co-op about ten months. Then we decided London had more to offer. I don’t know why. But anyway we seemed to like London. Both of us. So we took over a couple of rooms in where my brother lived. In Norwood. Norwood South. North Norwood. South Norwood. We, we grew up together, had children in this —
MC: Were you doing the same work?
RM: Yes. I got a job with a building society. Church of England. A Church of England building society in New Bridge Street. Just off of Fleet Street. I was there ten years and I felt disappointed with the opportunities presented. Maybe I didn’t suit them or they didn’t suit me. And I left there and I got a job in a dress shop. Not selling dresses. Designing them. Little bit of the [unclear] And then I got fed up with that and I had two children as I said so I went to an advert of the Leeds Permanent Building Society and became a clerk in their London office in membership services. And became a branch manager. I opened our own office in Croydon in Surrey. Well, we lived in Streatham so it was halfway home. And then I got a, got a car, glamourous and then after about five years I got a promotion to be a regional manager. And that meant managing two or three branches in London. Holborn and so forth. And they offered me regional manager’s job stationed in Cambridge which I liked and I liked the life there. And I saw out my career there. I was offered, about two years from the end when they dropped the ropes really. Dropped the ropes on me as regards by then I was — I forget when I retired. ’70. ‘70. I think it was ’70. I’m not too sure of that but anyway the —
MC: So you stayed in Cambridge.
RM: Oh yes. They called me in to Leeds one day and you changed your car every year. Every town manager got a new car. Brand new. You used to go to the agent, ‘I’ll have that one.’ I’ll have that one. Tended to be all the same colours and if you became an ultra-regional manager you got a better car. A Hillman Minx or something like that. I think they used to be called a Minx.
MC: Yeah.
RM: And so you felt a bit bigger big headed and you stuck all your branches. I used to reckon eighteen, nineteen. Depends on opening and shutting. Because building societies in those days were very cut and thrust. If you didn’t produce certain figures that they were looking for, the management, then then you’d be reminded that a better job would be worthwhile seeing. And all the hints. So you knew your name was on the short list. Well, fortunately my name was never and I dropped the London accent and all that business and I did that job of senior regional manager for seven, eight years I suppose. When I was about fifty I got called to Leeds for an interview with the chief general manager. I knew what it was. I knew what it was about or why. I spent a night in his company and drinking and then he offered me the job but it meant my wife was [pause] she worked for John Lee and partners which was national by then, started in London but went national and my son who was not very well. He was seventeen, eighteen years old. Just started studying. Well, advanced studying on a civil service career and he caught some disease which affected his body. He died the other day actually. And he lived ‘til he was fifty four. A non-drinker and all that sort of thing. And so he said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘If you’re going north to Leeds I’m going to go back to Cambridge.’ He had that option, you know. By then he was demoted. Still got money. But that was the benefit of working for the — they never had to sack them, they packed themselves in. They kept them on. So he kept his car and kept his life. Lived on his own with his mum, put it like that. So we never did that. I did another three or four years as a senior regional manager and then packed in.
MC: So, post war did you get involved in any reunions and associations?
RM: No. I I think I was, there was one case not long after when I went to volunteer my services. I forget. Somewhere in London. But I never got chosen.
MC: Volunteered your services for what? For —
RM: Sorry?
MC: What did you volunteer your services for?
RM: Well, just training.
MC: Oh right.
RM: By then there was the advancement of guns and all that. Kept improving and [unclear]
MC: But you don’t know whether there was a 90 Squadron Association or anything like that you could have joined?
RM: No. No. There definitely wasn’t.
MC: Oh right.
RM: Because I would have. But of course by then your civilian life had taken over. I had a wife, I had two children. By ’54, end of ’55, two children. A girl and a boy. And the RAF, they used to send you a catalogue sort of thing. But after a while I never went to any reunions ever. In fact I didn’t know where they were. But being the expenses and in between I had a dog job and I had, it’s not a joke my brother, elder brother he was, his name was Ronnie. He’s dead and gone now. He, he worked for a bookmaker in Wandsworth tick tacking. And he’d put, he used to go to all the races and dog tracks. He used to earn a lot of money and when I was short when I first went to London I didn’t have, I think was paid about eight shillings a week. Something like that. Because we used to queue up the staircase to the bosses first floor suite of rooms. There’d be a half circle of people maybe thirty or thirty five. Used to wait on this here every Friday. True. And eventually, ‘Maggs.’ You walked in to this office, opened the door and there was the assistant general manager. Had his desk laid out with all the names and all the money. The pay. Mine was about thirty two shillings a week. Something like that. [unclear] he stamps off. Anyway.
MC: What’s — I mean looking back on the war now, your war years do you have any, you know thoughts on the reasoning behind the war and how it turned out? And whether you did a good job?
RM: I don’t recollect I was concerned in the slightest. I obviously wanted England to win because I didn’t want to change my way of life. But other than that there was nothing. I wouldn’t have liked to have been a German. They didn’t do to bad in the end did they?
MC: Do you have much thoughts on Harris? Bomber Harris.
RM: Yes. I never, never met him or his team. None of those blokes who went on any special raids. But he was a distant figure. Inspiring in his words on television. And he never came to the squadron. I don’t know. I admired the man from a distance. What he said and what he helped achieve. He was a South African and, and I flew with South Africans to start off with.
MC: Yes. You said. Yeah.
RM: Yeah. Very nice. Very charming. Really charming bloke. Cigarettes. We used to get cigarettes from South Africa. He used to be very liberal on what he give away and he really was a nice chap. But Tom and I had our conversations. Tom, the other bloke, gunner, he used to, ‘What do you think of him?’ ‘He’s alright but I’m not that bloody keen about his flying.’ And it sort of increased atmosphere or the layout. And it was difficult. I mean we never saw him again after we pranged the kite. He pranged the aircraft. I had the fright of my life. Biggest fright because when he landed on no wheels, or one wheel and he went to starboard and it spun around and it stopped. And it was dead of night of course. No lights anywhere. Of course the other blokes. ‘I’m out.’ ‘I’m out.’ ‘I’m out.’ And I was the last one. I was mid-upper that night. Well, the mid hatch comes inwards. It doesn’t go outwards, it goes, well it did came one bit. Quite a big bit. Nothing else. But from the mid-upper you had nothing to tread on. To get in your turret you had a bar and a bar and the solid bar which your feet, you know trod on. So and you couldn’t stretch your leg. And of course I got this sort of and in the panic no doubt about it, panic I must have kicked the bar away because I was left hanging like this. I thought, and of course you heard these noises. People, ‘I’m gone.’ ‘I’m gone.’ ‘I’m gone.’ ‘I’m gone.’ Sod you. I’m stuck here. And I heard them shouting, ‘Come on Bob. You’re the last one. You’re the last one. Bob. Bob.’ Well, I didn’t enjoy that a minute. I let go under the armpits and stood on the aircraft. Looked around. Saw a pickaxe. A chopper. We used to carry them around the aircraft in cases. A black leather case. I tried to hook it on to the Perspex. It’s strong stuff you know. Perspex. And I couldn’t do it. And I’ve thought about it dozens of times how, and then somebody said, ‘Fire.’ I thought bloody hell. That’s the worse you want to be in. Fire. And one of the engines had sparked and burned some petrol. And so I didn’t know what to do. People were shouting and cars were drawing up and all this sort of thing. And all you could think of was self-preservation. It didn’t matter about anybody else at all. I’ve never said this to anybody but it’s true. I could have — the King’s rights. But it didn’t do me any good, [unclear] wasn’t very good. So I didn’t know what to do so I jumped down again. The second time I was trying to find, ‘Well, why didn’t you go that way.’ ‘Because sir, because smoke was coming from the front.’ Going through there. And you didn’t know. There was a wall of smoke building up. Coming in internally in to the aircraft. So you thought, well I don’t know what I thought to be truthful. One way was self-preservation. Stay at the top. And I couldn’t get through to it. But I got this chopper and I don’t know how I managed it. I pulled myself out through the turret and I came out through the turret. That meant just getting hold of the guns and sticking them on the floor, loosening them. I forget how I did it. And this was only a training raid. I thought oh sod me. You do don’t you? Well I did. I know I did. I said sod me. I was nineteen years old and I was —
MC: So that was when you decided that the, that South African wasn’t the man for you.
RM: Eh?
MC: That was when you decided the South African wasn’t the man for you.
RM: Well, it probably helped. You know, people were shouting, ‘Fire. Fire.’ And, ‘Starboard. Starboard.’ The starboard side. The aircraft was tipped in. I don’t know what I felt. I’ve never known. I’ve never. I’ve asked myself the question but I couldn’t face it really because —
MC: So you actually smashed the rear, the mid-upper turret did you? With the axe.
RM: Well, to be truthful I don’t know what I did to get out. I know when my head showed above the level of the aircraft someone saw a head move and said, ‘Oh Bob’s free and he’s alright.’ But even then you had to pull yourself through and you were still exposed you see because your mid-upper is on his own. See you either had to slip down by how many feet. Twelve feet, ten feet. Something like that, I know I didn’t have a very good, I know I had a fag but that was it.
MC: Was the aircraft a right off?
RM: The aircraft was written off as far as I know. I didn’t care about any aircraft. I didn’t care. To be truthful I didn’t care about anybody.
MC: No.
RM: No I didn’t. I’ll be honest about it. But these things are not daily occurrences thank goodness. Otherwise I wouldn’t have survived. They, they come and go. And the next crew you speak to down the line are a little bit wise. You had a prang and yeah what a [unclear] game this is. I did this and I did this. Make you laugh. When you think about it you laugh about it. But they were explaining it all to themselves you know. What a game this is. I’m not going to do this again. This lark.’ So there came a lighter life. As you, as you go on. They were great lads. They were really nice people. I’m sorry I didn’t make a career. I could have done. Talking to this here gunner that did. He became a FO Flying Embassy or something like that and he used to go around stations and stations in [unclear] coordinating training programmes and all that. He had a good job. Did that for twelve years. And then they said to him one day — and he became a salesman for a ladies perfume. He did alright. He’s still alive. Well he was. Six weeks ago he was alive. He lives nearby. Helping you if It’s possible. He would be available with a wider spectrum of the war after. But his deepest regret he never did the other one.
MC: But you didn’t. You decided you wouldn’t stay in. You decided you wouldn’t stay in.
RM: Oh yes. Well, I wasn’t offered anything. If I’d had been offered it I’d have considered it because I liked the RAF. I would. Nice ring as a warrant officer. You couldn’t keep it. You might get an officer interview but of course you see I never had no background. This, this lad his father was some major engineering person. His mother was well off so he came from the right background. I never. I came from right down.
MC: Well, Bob thank you very much for that. That’s been very good. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your time.
RM: A lot of jumble really.
MC: But thanks very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Robert William Maggs
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMaggsRW161110, PMaggsRW1602
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:10:30 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Maggs lived in London until his family were bombed out and moved to the seaside. He joined the local Air Training Corps and later volunteered for the RAF and trained as a gunner. During training his plane crashed and he was left trapped. He doesn’t remember how he managed to escape through the turret. After completing a tour with 90 Squadron he was posted to Egypt.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Great Britain
England--London
England--Suffolk
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1943-04
1944-12
1945
11 OTU
40 Squadron
90 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crash
crewing up
fear
military discipline
Operational Training Unit
RAF Swinderby
RAF Tuddenham
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1016/11305/PLusbyD1801.1.jpg
43773bdce380b6fd9a4b3dcba502bd26
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1016/11305/ALusbyD181217.2.mp3
a08ea7365e7bc89f530cfe319e4819d9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lusby, Dorothy
D Lusby
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Dorothy Lusby (b.1926). She was evacuated and later worked as a seamstress making uniforms.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lusby, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Mrs Dorothy Lusby and the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place at Mrs Lusby’s home in Waseby, Lincolnshire on Monday 17th of December 2018. Also present is Mrs Lusby’s daughter, Pat Spotton. Okay, just let’s start at the beginning, tell me a bit about where you were born, about when and where you were born.
DL: Well actually, I was born at Cleethorpes, I can’t tell you exactly where, and I don’t like Cleethorpes, I don’t even like sand! But I was born at Cleethorpes but we lived on Laceby Road at Grimsby and we were there most, most of the war. The war started just before my thirteenth birthday, which was on September the 15th. I was born 1926, so there, I told you the truth about being 92 haven’t I! [Laughter] You’ll have to excuse me but I’m always having jokes and having laughs because I like it. My neighbour, that one, oh dear, I do get some laughs!
MC: What did your parents do then, what were your parents?
DL: My father, well he was in the first world war of course. Yes, but he was in the army, I don’t know what regiment it was, but it was the Grimsby something or other I can’t remember what it was called, but he wasn’t sent abroad. They wanted some cooks and he went in for cookery because his mother had taught him how to cook and so he was a cook actually, and I don’t know where he was based, I can’t tell you that either. Now he was only sixty nine when he died.
MC: How old would you have been at the time?
DL: Oh. About twenty seven, twenty eight.
MC: Oh right, okay, so it was later on.
DL: Oh yes. So that’s where we lived, on Laceby Road, and the war started whilst we lived there and as I say, just before my thirteenth birthday. Now, we lived there for quite a while and we had these Anderson shelters, everyone had one delivered and you had to dig a hole in the garden and put it in the garden as far away from your property, which we did. Well, living in Grimsby and being so close to Hull, which was the place they were going to, mainly, we were often up at night, and so my father decided we ought to move further inland. And so, I should think it would be a year and a half after the war had started. You see the other thing was, we, where we lived, not too far away from us was an army camp where they had these ack-ack guns were they called? I think that’s they were called. So of course they were banging off, you see, so you got no peace when you were in the air raid shelter. And so we, he decided we would move further inland and we went to live in Leicester. And that is the house where we went to live. And it’s, the other side is a park, it’s called Spinney Hill Park. Very, very nice and there were underground shelters right across so that so many blocks of houses would go into that shelter, and so many in that. And we were there every [emphasis] night probably from eleven until six in the morning, night after night, and eventually they dropped six time bombs across there, fortunately not close enough to where we were in the underground shelters, and so of course we couldn’t, the park was closed so we’d no shelter to go in to, so it was the cupboard under the stairs and it wasn’t very big. [Chuckle] So we spent time there and in the finish my father said to me, it, well, to mother and I, it’s no good here, we’re worse off here than we were at Grimsby: I think we’ll go back. And so we did.
DC: So did you experience any of the bombing raids in Grimsby and Hull before you went or just - ?
DL: Well, yes, there were some, but I didn’t know a lot about them. I suppose my parents thought you know, too young at thirteen to be telling you about the disasters so you didn’t get to know. So anyway the thing was that we lived in Grimsby more or less back in the area of where we lived before we went to Leicester.
DC: So what was life like as a school child, you know growing up in that area just before the war, you know?
DL: Oh, I had a nice school to go to, yes. It was in Grimsby and it was only a cycle ride away to school or we could even walk. I loved cycling, as soon as I learned to cycle I couldn’t keep off one, and it went on year after year after year, I cycled everywhere. But yes, [cough] we had a nice school, nice teachers and they built some extra school classes, the school -
[To other]: Thank you love, thank you very much. Did you put some biscuits in the hearth?
DC: So yeah, you were saying -
DL: So the schools had shelters built, these brick ones, in the school playground, so we used them if we had to, but strangely enough I don’t ever remember us having to come out of school to go in those shelters. We had practices, but I don’t ever remember us having to go in the daytime whilst we were at school. So I suppose that was a good thing. And when we got to Leicester, the schools hadn’t got any air raid shelters so children were not really going to school regularly or full day, full time, they would go when it was supposed to be the quietest. But unfortunately where we lived at Leicester, there were a lot of munitions factories and my father felt he wanted to do something so he went in a munition factory. So I became fourteen and it was no good me going to school by the time I got the shel, because it was going on for November. So I never went back to school really, after I turned fourteen in the September. So I thought I would look for a job, I thought well I ought to have a job, and earn some money, it might help at home and all this business you see, not knowing much about how difficult it was, and then of course there was the rationing, which I think we managed pretty well, with that. And so I did find a job and it wasn’t too far away from where we lived.
DC: This was in Leicester.
DL: Yes. But it was for a boy. But I applied for it and they told me what it was all about. They showed me what you had to do, so they said to me: ‘Can you pick that bale off that shelf, the one above?’ so I said, ‘oh yes I’m sure I can.’ I just got hold of it and I picked it up and said, ‘where do you want it?’, holding it. He says, ‘my goodness,’ he says, a lass as strong as that!’, I’ll always remember him saying that. And so he asked me a few things about where I lived and when I told him Mere Road, he said, ‘oh you’re not far away,’ he said, ‘you’re in walking distance.’ I said I would probably come on my cycle is there anywhere to put it. ‘Oh’ he said, of course there is.’ So I go the job and I worked there until my father wanted to come back. But the manager of that works, offered, because they were so pleased with me and what I did, they offered me to, accommodation to stay at the manager’s and his wife’s home because they had a daughter as well, I think they had two daughters, and my father said no we mustn’t be separated. Which I suppose my father was thinking that they were getting that much bombing there in Leicester. But you see the thing was they were aiming for Coventry and they did an awful [emphasis] lot of damage there, and they blew up that lovely cathedral. They did have a new one built but wasn’t the same. Well they were building it long after we left there, but I did see it because we went for a holiday there, took Pat and my other daughter with us and showed them the park and showed them where we lived.
DC: It’s nice to go back.
DL: Yes, but this place where I lived, these bales that were about that length and about that thick and that, were folded, into so many sheets. So what I had to do was get them down and put a marker on them with a, well like a pastry cutter if you like, but it was shaped like that, and it was toecaps for soldier’s boots. And the men on the machines were doing that, making toe caps. That’s what it was for. I didn’t know what it was for until they were doing it, and so I said to one of them, now I always remember his name, we called him Alec. And I said, ‘Can I ask you what you’re making?’ So he said, ‘don’t you know?’ I said ‘No’ I said, ‘I’m only putting the pattern on. Yes you do a good job,’ he said, ‘how old are you? I said ‘I’m fourteen.’ my goodness!’ so I said well are you not allowed to tell me he said they’re toe caps for the forces boots, mainly soldiers. ‘Because,’ he said, ‘there are different kinds for different forces, like if they’re a pilot or if they’re on a ship.’ And so that was it but then of course I had to leave to come back to Grimsby.
DC: So how old were you when you came back to Grimsby then?
DL: I would be getting on for fifteen I should think. Because I think it was beginning of the summer time, or late spring, I can’t remember exactly when. It was long after Christmas; we did have Christmas there, at, in Leicester, so, but I would, I can remember having my fifteenth birthday when we got there.
DC: Did you get a job when you came back to - ?
DL: Yes, I went, my father found it for me. It was a tailoring job. Well I was good at needlework and sewing and I was the only girl in the school class that could use a treadle sewing machine. They just had one, and the others would turn the handle on the, your desk top and so I used that because I learned to use it at my grandma’s, and I eventually got that sewing machine.
DC: So you saw out the rest of the war up in, back in Grimsby.
DL: Yes, yes I did. I mean it was still on of course, and so the job I got on the tailoring, it was an apprenticeship for making, I don’t know, I’ll call him an officer, but it was sailors’ uniform but it was the one, not where they wore the bell bottoms and the jumper tops, but a jacket and straight trousers and a peaked camp, but I just know it was an officer. And I was responsible for the two fronts and the lapels. Not to stitch, but to cut out and mark. And so I would pass them on this conveyor belt, but I eventually got on to doing the sewing and then using a button machine, putting, no buttonhole machine and I used to look at these buttonholes and I’d think I could do better ones than those by hand! Which I could! Eventually I left, whilst I was working there, there’d been a very bad raid that night, and there was a lot of bombing going on because they were aiming for Grimsby docks, and they dropped a bomb on a big department store on this corner, where I worked was on this corner, [sound of paper being prodded] all we lost was a bit of glass out of some windows, but the shop was flat to the ground, well more or less.
DC: A lucky escape!
DL: It was. And so we were able to stay at work if we wanted to, or if we didn’t want to because of the bombing. But I stayed, and it went on for a little while until it got to a time when I wasn’t very pleased about not being able to do a certain sewing job on these jackets, and so I thought I’ll look for another job. And it just so happened I saw a girl that used to go to my school and she told me where she worked and I said, ‘oh do they want anybody?’ Well they didn’t. But she says why don’t you go to Harrisons, on the corner of Town Hall Street, because they are doing officers’ uniforms there, but she said, ‘I’m happy where I am.’ So I thought I’d try it. So I went and tried and they said they well they could do with someone who was good at hand sewing because there’s lots of ribbons to stitch on and hand buttonholes. I thought that sounds good and so I said well I could do that because I liked hand sewing, so they said well that’s what we need, and so I was employed and so I was putting the ribbons down the trousers, round the cuffs, on the shoulders and doing the buttonholes. But the other thing was there were air force and naval officers uniforms we were doing and we were also doing what they called their tail suits. We used to call them penguin suits in those days. So there was a lot of sewing for me to do on those as well, so I used to love sitting there doing the hand sewing rather than on the machine. But it was considered war work so I was never in any of the forces and I carried on working, not at that same place, I went to the place that my friend had told me about to do men’s’ suits and so I went there and that was where I went on a buttonhole machine and a buttoning, button machine and I didn’t seem to get into the other tailoring, but it was very nice, but they opened, well I’ll call it a little factory, in Grimsby, not far from the one that I was working in, and the manager of the place where I was working was leaving to start up his own business on Cleethorpes Road, at, you know between Grimsby and Cleethorpes and so the manager for this other place was coming to take his place and they wanted someone across there to do something there. So they asked me if I would go as a charge hand. ‘Oh I said I don’t know if I want to do that.’ So they said you’ll be all right for it, you know, carried on talking about it, and I said well can I just go for a month’s trial: see if I like it? I finished up there until I was expecting Pat, working there because I went from charge hand to forewoman to manageress!
MC: Oh!
DL: So there I was, and of course I loved sewing so much I did a lot of my own dressmaking because I had cousins in Canada, that were on my mother’s side, she had two sisters over there, and they used to send a parcel every now and again. I used to get dress material and stockings sent to me and so I was always all right.
MC: Did you have any brothers and sisters?
DL: Yes, yes, younger than me. Yes.
MC: You were the eldest?
DL: Yes, yes, I was eight years older than my brother. Yes. But they’re no longer with us.
MC: So growing up, I mean there’s, the start of the war you’re thirteen, end of the war what you’re, nineteen?
DL: Somewhere about that age, coming up to that.
MC: That’s a marvellous age, you know, the teenage years, growing up to a young lady.
DL: Yes, yes it was.
MC: What sort of, you know, what was it like, you know?
DL: I suppose –
NC: I mean did you meet any of the RAF men?
DL: Oh you met a lot of them, because in Grimsby -
MC: I’m thinking you might have been a very popular lady.
DL: Oh I don’t know about that! [Laugh] My father was a bit strict anyway, about who you were going out with. And so, but I loved dancing, so there was a church that had a church hall and Saturday nights they had a dance there and the vicar would be there you see, not all the time, he would just pop home and then pop back again.
MC: So did the men from the RAF camps come there?
DL: Well, there was an RAF camp at Waltham, another village just away and there were a few of them came there. But I think maybe I did because they would come and ask you for a dance. They didn’t always have their uniforms on, in fact I don’t think, I’m not quite sure, but I don’t think they hardly came in uniforms, I think they were always in suits or jackets and trousers, you know, sports jackets. So I did get some dancing and then I got dancing with one young man one night, I thought he was probably from Waltham but he was a farmers’ son at Waltham, and he was a very good dancer, and so was I [emphasis] actually, and so we were regular dance partners and I was never short of a dance partner if he was there. He came fairly regular, except when it was harvest time or anything like that. And I met my husband there but, [emphasis] it took him a long, long time to come and ask me for a dance. So when we got to know each other I asked him why all that time he went to the dance why didn’t he ever come and ask me for a dance, I said, ‘you used to look across at me but never asked me.’ ‘Well’ he said, ‘I couldn’t I was frightened I’d stand on your toes or trip you up,’ he said, ‘I used to watch you with your partner that you used to dance with a lot,’ and he said ‘I couldn’t do those steps!’ So don’t know what, well this partner and I, we, there was a competition on one night and we won the competition for dancing the tango, and I’ve still got, it was a lovely padded coat hanger, hand made but it was lovely, and I’ve still got it, yes, my dressing gown hangs on it. I forget what he got, but anyway. So that’s what was happening then, and of course and then I noticed that this young man that turned out to be my husband in the finish, didn’t come any more and I thought oh he’s got fed up of coming and just standing about! Then eventually I go, I get two of the girls at work press me in to go to a dance on a Thursday night at the big dance hall in Grimsby. It was called the Gaiety. It had been an ice rink once, many many years before. I didn’t want to go, because it was too big, I liked the smaller places, but I went. They go off, and I’m waiting for them coming back and I thought I wonder if they’ve got dance partners whilst, I thought they’d gone to the cloakroom you see, I thought I wonder if they’ve got dance partners, so when the next lot of music started up, which was a waltz, I thought I’ll go and have a look, see if they’re on the floor, dancing. and I was standing there looking and I was like this and looking round, and I thought I can’t see them, then suddenly a tap on the shoulder – Eric!
MC: They’d set it up.
DL: And that’s where it started then. He wanted me to write to him so I did. And then he wanted a photograph of me and I sent him one and he sent me one, and when I got thisphotograph I thought isn’t he handsome! I never thought, sort of looked at it like that. But that’s -
MC: So I’m just going back to the war years and your experiences, rationing and things like that.
DL: Oh yes. You know you did pretty well really, working it out, well your parents did, I mean I don’t know how they worked it out, but I mean you had to give seven coupons for a dress or a blouse, and I think it was seven coupons for a shoe, a pair of shoes I should say, not a shoe, and then I don’t know how the food ones worked out because my mother took care of that, you, but you, each person in the household got an individual book of coupons for clothing. So you could only get what you had coupons for. So I was very fortunate that I received these parcels from Canada, which the lady, the cousin that was sending me the parcel, her husband was in the Scottish Highlanders, he, was the regiment he came in from Canada and when he had his leave he used to spend it with us. So I did meet one of them. Well then the other one just had the one son, Robert, he was a pilot in the air force and he was over here and he was, got some leave and he was going to come and see us and he never came back from the flight out that night, so we never met him and so she lost her only child really.
MC: Were you aware of the raids that were going on, the aircraft that were taking off, the bombers streams?
DL: Well they weren’t near enough to where we lived. I mean Waltham was one, Binbrook was another and Hemswell. Now before I came to live here I lived in the next village to Hemswell for twenty two years before I came here, so and my husband, he went in the REME because his apprenticeship he did was for, REME was if you don’t know, it’s the REME is the Royal Engineers Mechanical Electricians or somewhere round there.
MC: Yeah, I know it.
DL: Anyway, it’s in here somewhere. So he set up a business and he did a lot of the work on Hemswell when it had closed because they were selling off the, all the buildings, and the officers mess some people bought and that is where the antiques place is.
MC: Yes.
DL: And my husband did all the lighting in there. Then he went to a place that was selling German tractors, believe it or not, beautiful things, huge, [emphasis] and so he’d got quite a bit of work. Well, then when farmers started having the corn driers, they had to have the things put in for it, and he did those, at a lot of farms until he finished updoing work for a lot of farms.
MC: How long was he in the REME for?
DL: Just the two years’ service which he had to do.
MC: His National Service, that was just after the war?
DL: Yes, yes it would be. Yes, yes it was. Yes, because we were married in 1949 and we were going out together for about a year and ten months before we were married, even though we sort of knew each other beforehand, because he was still doing his army service and I was writing to him.
MC: Yes.
DL: Yes. So he’d be there until 1947 to 48 maybe. I remember he came out in the January, so, and I would nearly think that was 1948, I would think so, but that was, that was about it. With rationing, I think you, well thinking about at home, you did all right because my mother didn’t take sugar, I didn’t take sugar, and there was, for your dried fruit if you wanted it for cakes or Christmas puddings and things, you had to save it through the year, but my father did the cooking Christmas day because it was my mother’s birthday on Christmas day, so he did the cooking, having done, been the cook in the army. Oh, he made the most beautiful puddings, oh they were lovely, and Christmas cake.
MC: Out of nothing during rationing.
DL: Well yes, because you see we saved the fruit up didn’t have too many fruity cakes, probably just sponge cakes or he probably even bought them from the shop in those days. And when we were in Leicester there used to be, I can’t remember the name of the firm, but they used to come round in a van, selling cakes and bread and buns and all kinds of things, and he would take your coupons and so I think about once in three, every third week, my parents, either my father or my mother, would go out and choose some cake and quite often it was that, I’ve forgotten what it was called, but it was square with marzipan round it.
MC: Oh, Battenburg.
DL: That’s it, yes. about once in three weeks, because I don’t think it was cheap, but it was a treat, that’s what it was – it was a treat. But no, I think, I mean I look back many, many a time and think I was very fortunate to get through it without a scratch and to be able build your lives up, not that we had that feeling because we were too young when the war was on, but to think that, to look back and think what it was all about, and what you’ve read about in books.
MC: I often think that that age, from thirteen to nineteen -
DL: Yes. Is someone coming to my door?
MC: I often think being that age thirteen to nineteen during the war was a very impressionable age, you know, living and growing up during the war.
DL: Yes.
MC: It must have been an amazing experience.
DL: Oh yes. I mean I can remember that when they were dropping the bombs, and we were back in Grimsby by this time, they were going for the railway lines in Grimsby, and they missed and hit the end of our parish church and also because they were aiming for the railway lines, a whole row of terraced houses: they hit those. I was never told about that, or knew about that row of houses for a long, long time afterwards and that must have been dreadful, really dreadful. The part of the church that was repairable, I don’t think there was any things of importance damaged inside the church, but there was, I think it was a stained glass window that had been put in for someone special, I don’t know what, maybe for a bishop or something I can’t remember, and I used to go to that church on a Sunday with one of the girls from work. We became good friends and in the summertime when we came out we used to get on the bus and go to Cleethorpes, walk the full length of the prom up to the bathing pool, then get our buses back: she would get the bus to take her home I’d get mine, and in the winter time well, we more or less always just came home. But it’s one of those things that you can’t help looking back on some of it, which I do sometimes, and some things stand out more than others. Yes.
MC: Yeah, I think you tend to remember the good times as well.
DL: Well you do, and as I say, I often think wasn’t I lucky to still to be here, you know and I think one of my aunts, they lost a son in the war, but this is aunts that lived in our country. Now I had an aunt and uncle that lived at Portsmouth and her husband was a wireless operator on one of the ships or whatever, and they had one or two narrow misses, but he came home, yes, he got home, and his wife, my auntie Olive, she went to work and help in one of the – what did they call the canteens that they used?
MC: NAAFI.
DL: That’s it, yes, she worked in one of those quite a number of years, well practically all through the war. And so on the whole I suppose I can look back at it and think well I didn’t know such a lot about it as a child, it was as I got older and it was nearly ending. But it, it was an experience that you weren’t expecting, and looking back on it, well you just think how fortunate you are to be here.
MC: Indeed. Well Dorothy, thank you very much for that interview. It’s been very informative and it’s interesting to see what you did during the war and I thank you for taking the time out to talk to us.
DL: It’s all right I’ve got plenty of it to spare!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Dorothy Lusby
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-12-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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ALusbyD181217, PLusbyD1801
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Pending review
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00:32:57 audio recording
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eng
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Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Leicester
England--Grimsby
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Civilian
Description
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Dorothy’s was born in Cleethorpes, her father served in the Army during the First World War. They moved to Grimsby at the outbreak of the war, when she was turning 13 years old. She recalls the bombings and having to stay in an Anderson air raid shelter in her garden throughout the night. Her father decided to move the family to Leicester believing it to be safer. There were communal air raid shelters, but they were closed after six time-fused bombs dropped nearby. The family took cover under the stairs of their home. At 14, Dorothy had left school secured her first job, but the family moved back to Grimsby due to the severity of the bombings. Dorothy went on to secure a tailoring apprenticeship as she was able to use a Treadle sewing machine, having originally learnt the craft from her grandmother. She undertook several tailoring jobs during the war, usually sewing uniforms for officers, which was considered ‘war work’. Dorothy recalls the ongoing bombings on Grimsby, including when docks and railway lines were targeted. She also remembers rationing, including clothing coupons, and having to save ingredients throughout the year to make cakes for special occasions. Dorothy enjoyed dancing, often at her local church hall on Saturday nights, where she won a competition and met her future husband, Eric. After the war, he served in the Corps of Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers for two years’ National Service.
Contributor
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Andy Shaw
Anne-Marie Watson
bombing
entertainment
evacuation
home front
RAF Grimsby
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1067/11523/APearsonBM180312.1.mp3
f54de849aa13ddb751063f82b77dc740
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Pearson, Betty May
B M Pearson
Description
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An oral history interview with Betty Pearson (b. 1928) She lived in Lincoln and discusses her brother-in-law William Mollison Walton
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-03-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Pearson, BM
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being conducted on the behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Betty Pearson. The interview is taking place at Betty Pearson’s home in Lincoln on Monday the 12th of March 2018. Also in attendance is son Stuart Pearson and —
GW: Gillian.
MC: And Gillian.
GW: Watkin.
MC: Watkin. Ok, Betty. Thank you for doing this interview. Just, just as a start just tell me a bit about where you were born and where —
BP: I was born in Bracebridge.
MC: Oh, so you are a local lass.
BP: Yeah.
MC: When was that?
BP: 1928.
MC: 1928.
BP: Yeah.
MC: So, tell me about who you want to talk about today.
BP: My brother in law.
MC: Your brother in law.
BP: Bill Walton as I knew him. William.
MC: William.
BP: William Walton.
MC: William Walton.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And how did you come to meet him?
BP: Well, we used to go, my sister and I used to go to North Hykeham dance. A village dance every Saturday night and Bill was at the RAF Swinderby finishing his training I think and he used to come with his friends to the dance, to the Hykeham dance and that’s how they met. I was allowed to go. I was six years younger than my sister. I was allowed to go if I stayed in her company. But I knew they didn’t want me there so [laughs] I used to, I made my own friends unbeknown to my sister.
MC: So, what do you know about Bill?
BP: Well, I knew he was Scottish and he lived just outside Perth and they got on very well together.
MC: Where was he born? Do you know?
BP: I don’t know but it was in Scotland of course.
MC: Yes.
BP: I think probably in the Perth area, because his parents were farmers.
MC: How old was he when he joined the RAF? Do you know?
BP: Oh, I think he was about nineteen. He was a pilot when he was nineteen.
MC: Really? You don’t know where he did his training?
BP: At Swinderby.
MC: Oh, yeah he was at Swinderby.
BP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: At the time, yeah.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So when did, did you follow him through his career? Did, you know, were you aware where he went? What squadron he went to.
BP: No. I don’t know the, I think Stuart’s got all that business down, haven’t you? The squad, squadron number and everything.
MC: So, tell me your story about, about Bill. What do you know about him?
BP: Well, I know that they were courting for quite a while and he was often on duty flying his plane and she used to see him when he wasn’t flying of course. And then we moved from North Hykeham, my parents and my sister and I to an off licence in Bracebridge and I think I was fifteen. I knew I wasn’t allowed to serve beer so I couldn’t have been sixteen but I could eat sweets and chocolate, and I used to test the beer out of the pump. My dad used to say, ‘Have you been at this beer?’ ‘Well, I’ve got to see it’s alright, dad.’ [laughs] So, that was, that was the off licence. We were there quite a while before all this flying business happened. And of course sweets were on coupons in those days and the kiddies all used to come in with their ration books and I used to be able to cut the points out, and serve them the sweets and I enjoyed doing that. It was lovely. And then one day it was the beginning of the sweet coupons and the shop was absolutely packed out and there I was serving sweets. Didn’t look up. I hadn’t got time to look up until the shop was empty and when I did look up there was this airman in a mucky old battledress just inside the door. I didn’t recognise him he was so dirty. But then I realised who it was. Unfortunately, my sister wasn’t there. She was at the pictures with mum. So they had a bit of a shock when they came home. You can imagine.
MC: So was that when he came back from —
BP: Yes, after having been missing.
MC: So how did you, how did your sister find out about him going missing?
BP: Well, they were engaged to be married, and they were due to be married in about six weeks time. And I think they informed her. Well, they would do wouldn’t they? That he was gone missing.
MC: And he just turned up at the door.
BP: He just turned up. Yeah.
MC: So, I mean, do you know any of the, how he evaded or what happened, you know, to him?
BP: Stuart’s got all that information.
SP: The actual type written copy.
MC: You’ve got a copy of the —
SP: I had it from the War Office.
MC: From the, his escape report. Yeah.
SP: Yeah, but this is, this is the word equivalent of it.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SP: This is exactly what he wrote. Do you want me to read it out?
MC: Yeah. You can do. Yeah.
SP: Right. “Flight Lieutenant William Mollison Walton DFC. 97 Squadron, Bomber Command, RAF.” And this is the gist of the message. “We took off from Coningsby at 20.50 hours on the 24th of June 1944 to bomb flying bomb bases in the Pas de Calais area. We were attacked by a fighter at a point south of Etaples. I baled out during the night 24th 25th of June and landed at Brimeux.” He gives a map reference then. “In a lake approximately one hundred yards square, in the middle of which there was a small island. I made my way to the island and was obliged to stay there in hiding for two days because of German activity in the area. I believe the Germans were searching for my crew and myself. During the morning of the 27th of June I left my hiding place after having disposed of my parachute and Mae West and made my way southwest around the village of Beaurainville where I hid in a wood for the remainder of the day. The wood was close to a farm which I kept under observation with a view to obtaining help when it became dark. I approached the house at night and was immediately taken inside. I remained here until the 25th of August. Ten days after my arrival I was visited by the chief of the Resistance organisation at Hesdin. On the 25th of August I was moved to an address in Hesdin and remained there until I contacted British troops on the 3rd of September. My flight engineer, Flight Sergeant Mayhew was killed when the parachute failed to open and was buried by the French at Marles Sur Canche.” And that, that’s his report basically. Three days after he was, he was found by the British troops, so I would presume when he got back to this country.
MC: So, Betty how, how long would from when he went missing to when he came back was it that, so your sister was unaware what happened to him.
BP: I think it was about six weeks.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
BP: I can’t remember dead accurately but it was about six weeks.
MC: So, it must have been a worrying time then.
BP: It was. Yeah. Everything was ready for the wedding.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
BP: The wedding dress on the back of the bedroom door. The cake was made already. So my sister and my mother and myself went up to Perth to spend a week with his parents. That’s when we met the fortune teller in Perth, Market Square and she was dead accurate. She really was.
MC: So did, did [pause] so when he came back so that they obviously, obviously got married.
BP: Oh yes.
MC: Was that fairly quickly?
BP: Then he was stationed at all sorts of different places, in the New Forest and Malvern.
MC: And she moved around with him.
BP: Of course. They got married and then —
MC: Yeah.
BP: The two went all over.
MC: Did he relate any of his other stories of his operations?
BP: No. No.
MC: No. No. No.
BP: No. Didn’t speak, well not to me anyway. Might have done to my sister. I forgot to mention that the fortune, the fortune teller said that he’d got a bandage around his head and he would come back. And she said to him, she said to my sister, ‘You were about to get married but you will do but not just yet.’ And the bandage was around his head when he, when he was found. Yeah. He had got injured around, just around there. As he came down I suppose.
MC: Was he in good spirits when he came back? Was he? I mean, obviously he must have been to get, to get back from evading.
BP: Yeah.
BP: I don’t know who brought him back. It’s not in your report is it?
HW: No.
BP: So, how he got back over the Channel, I assume somebody must have brought him over.
MC: What, what year was that? Can you remember? [pause] 1944, is that right?
BP: I would think about that time.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Did you say that it said —
SP: Just after D-Day.
MC: Yeah. It’s alright. You can come in. You’re alright.
SP: Yeah. Just after D-Day.
MC: Yeah.
SP: So obviously he introduced himself to the British troops who were invading Normandy.
MC: Yeah. So what raid was he on? Do we see?
SP: It was a raid to a place called Prouville, which was a big —
MC: Oh, Prouville. Yeah. Yeah.
SP: V-1 flying base.
MC: Yeah. That would have been supporting the D-Day invasion.
SP: Yeah.
MC: I should think. Yeah. Yeah.
SP: Shot down by a night fighter.
MC: What else can you remember, Betty?
BP: Not a lot really except the wedding when we, if there’s anything on there that I haven’t told you about [pause] When he left the RAF he joined the civil aviation. Most of that was spent in Scotland somewhere.
MC: Do you know where he did his flying training?
BP: Yeah. Swinderby.
MC: Oh, I don’t think he would have. He was a pilot, wasn’t he?
BP: Oh yes.
MC: Yeah.
BP: And then he went to East Kirkby didn’t he Stuart?
MC: Yeah. So he —
BP: Yeah.
MC: He could well have done his flying training in Canada.
SP: Do you know, I —
BP: He did. He did. He did some in Canada, yeah. I remember now.
MC: He did. Yeah. Yeah.
SP: I remember you telling me that.
MC: Yeah.
BP: I’ve got here that he was training for his, to be a pilot at aged nineteen to twenty.
SP: He, he did get a —
[recording paused]
MC: He got the DFC. We do know.
SP: He did, yeah.
BP: Yeah. Yeah, he had to —
[recording paused]
MC: You have a read of it. Just read a bit out. Fill it in as you feel like —
BP: When I first met Bill it was North Hykeham village dance when he met my sister, Doreen. He was stationed at Swinderby, completing his training for a pilot and was aged only nineteen to twenty. He was a regular visitor to our home in North Hykeham, and they eventually became engaged. He moved stations. RAF, in brackets, and soon became a pilot and flew over Germany and later completed two tours and was promoted to flight lieutenant. My family and myself moved to an off licence in Lincoln, and their marriage was arranged. The wedding dress hung on the back of the bedroom door and the cake was made. Within six weeks of the wedding Bill was reported missing. My mother, myself and Doreen went up to Scotland to stay with his family for a week, and went one day to Perth to have a look around [cough] Excuse me. We saw a sign for a fortune teller. Doreen removed her RAF brooch and went inside. The information the lady gave her was very, was unbelievable, ‘You were going to get married weren’t you?’ She said, ‘Well, you still will. He will come back and has a bandage on his head because he landed in a tree.’ And I don’t know whether that was true, that bit. He was on an island. There may have been a tree. I don’t know. We went back to Lincoln and I helped in the shop. Doreen went back to work. I was serving sweets when the, in the shop when one Sunday, too busy to look up, the shop was full of people cashing in their sweet coupons. Sweets of course were rationed and it was the start of the month so the children all came in to spend their points. When the shop was empty, about fifteen minutes, I looked up, and there was a scruffy man in a scruffy RAF battle dress inside the door. Of course, it was Bill and I told him mum and Doreen were at the pictures. The reunion took place an hour later and the wedding a few weeks later, and that was it.
MC: But yourself you actually grew up during the war then.
BP: Oh yes.
MC: Yeah. So what do you remember about the area around Lincoln? There must have been a —
BP: Oh, well we lived at Hykeham and I used to cycle sixteen miles a day to work at the GPO, Guildhall Street when I was fourteen. Four miles there. Four back at lunchtime. Back again in the afternoon and four back. Sixteen miles a day. And I remember one day I cycled to work and there was a policeman on duty at the Stonebow as there was in those days and he stopped me. He said, ‘Sorry miss. You can’t go any further. There’s a bomb down there.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m sorry,’ I said, ‘But I’ve got to be at work at 8 o’clock.’ ‘Oh, alright then. Go on.’ They let me go down Mint Street. Where the bomb was I’ve no idea but I went to work. That was it.
MC: So there must have been a lot of airmen around in those days. There were a lot of —
BP: Oh, there was. All over the place. Yeah.
MC: Can you remember seeing the aircraft in the air?
BP: No. It wasn’t so much that, no. But I know one day when we were still at Hykeham, there was a bomber came over and we could recognise it by the sound of the engines. My dad had built a shelter in the garden and we all trooped down there when the siren went. One of the neighbours who was a gentleman of about seventy, he used to bring his knitting in. He used to do his knitting in the shelter. And the bomb dropped just over the road from where we lived funnily enough the [pause] there’s a crater in the field opposite and my sister thought it was her fault because she opened the door at the wrong time and the light came on. But that’s the main thing I can remember about the war really.
MC: So, what did your dad do during the war?
BP: My dad, he worked at Rustons. He was just in between those ages where he was too old to join up. He was too young in the First World War, too old in the Second. So he never went in the Forces but it was a good, you know it was a wartime job if you like he did at Rustons.
MC: And did you have any siblings? Any brothers and sisters?
BP: Only my sister, Doreen.
MC: Yeah.
BP: So —
MC: She’s the, she’s the one that married Bill.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah, obviously. Yeah.
BP: Yeah.
MC: What did they do after the war? Did they stay in Lincoln? They got up to Scotland or what?
BP: Well —
MC: You said he joined the civil airlines.
BP: When he left the RAF he did. Yeah. He was in the RAF for quite a while after that and then he joined the civil aviation.
SP: Air traffic control.
BP: Yes. Yeah. Traffic. Yeah.
MC: Oh, he was air traffic control. Oh right.
BP: And then he went to, he was at Dyce, Aberdeenshire and —
GW: Prestwick.
BP: And Prestwick, yeah. They lived at Ayr when he was at Prestwick. And he was in the New Forest as well. That was nice.
MC: Certainly moved around from one end of the country to the other.
BP: They did. Malvern. He was at Malvern. Yeah.
MC: So were they good days in Lincoln in those, in that period when you —
BP: Oh we all enjoyed it, you know. They call it the good old days didn’t they? It wasn’t of course but remember I was only fifteen so I was allowed to do more than if it had been, you know, ordinary times I think.
MC: Let’s just. I mean I think we talked about his squadron. He was in ’97.
SP: 97 Strait Settlement Squadron.
MC: Strait Settlement, that was right.
SP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: I thought they were Pathfinders.
SP: He ended, I think he ended up as a Pathfinder.
MC: Yeah.
SP: I believe so.
BP: He did, yeah. He did. Yeah.
MC: With, yeah do you know if he went to any other squadrons?
SP: I don’t to be honest.
MC: No.
SP: His daughter might be able to help on that one. She’s got some information.
MC: Does, does she still have his logbook and stuff like that?
BP: Yeah. They have got his flying logbook but there’s very little information in it strangely enough about the crash. About when the aircraft was shot down. I have got that. I can, I can dig that out.
[recording paused]
MC: You say she’s got an original letter from the French family.
SP: Yeah, from the French family and she’s had problems getting it translated. I don’t know whether that would be of any use to you.
MC: Absolutely, yeah.
BP: I mean the uni could translate that surely.
MC: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. No. It’s, it’s very good because that’s the sort of thing that the archives need.
BP: Yeah.
[recording paused]
MC: So did, were you old enough to go to the dances in them days?
BP: My goodness me, yes. I was only allowed to go if I stayed with my sister.
MC: With your sister, you said. Yeah
BP: She was six years older than me you see.
MC: And how old were you?
BP: When I started to go to the dance, and put my lipstick on when I got outside.
SP: When you got outside.
BP: I’d be about fourteen I should think.
MC: Fourteen. Yeah.
BP: Yeah. And I probably looked a little bit older. I used to get plenty of dance partners.
SP: Yeah. I bet you did.
MC: Yeah.
BP: That’s where I learned to dance.
MC: Yeah.
BP: North Hykeham Parish Hall.
MC: Yeah, a lot, were there a lot of RAF boys at the —
BP: Oh, God. Yes.
MC: They were all RAF boys at the dances.
BP: Plenty of partners, and the local lads didn’t like that much at all.
MC: No.
SP: Yeah.
MC: Where did you have the dances did you say?
BP: North Hykeham.
MC: Oh, North Hykeham.
BP: There’s a church hall just near the church there.
MC: Oh, the church hall. Oh right. Yeah. So where did the lads, the RAF lads come from? Do you know which stations?
BP: Swinderby.
MC: Mainly Swinderby.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. He did learn to fly in Canada because I remember you telling me that. I think he probably told me as well.
BP: Yeah.
SP: Learning to fly in Canada. But, yeah I can, I can well his son was the same age as me and I can’t remember my Uncle Bill talking about the war at all.
BP: No.
SP: Did he —
BP: No. No.
SP: He did, I think he did recall an incident where they were taking off and a Lancaster flying in front of his exploded, you know. Faulty bomb and the whole thing went up. I remember that.
BP: I can remember you telling me that. So he must have told you.
SP: Well, either me directly or dad.
BP: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: It might have been dad. I do remember that so —
[recording paused]
MC: Yeah. I mean you say about the, you know it being too late and yeah, and the politics, yeah.
SP: Yeah. It beggars belief it’s taken that long. The rate of attrition amongst bomber crew was, well as you know was huge wasn’t it?
MC: And you talked about Coventry.
SP: The apologists for Dresden I think had an influence on the decision not to commemorate Bomber Command’s exploits, but I think if we had a conversation with the relatives of the Mayor of Coventry at the time, he might have something to say about that. So whether politics has played the major part in this delay I don’t know but I think the Centre’s an amazing building. I love the way it’s so interactive, and I think that will help a lot of the younger people get a grasp of what they actually went through in the war because they live in the IT age and it’s very technically advanced isn’t it, the information?
[recording paused]
MC: So, I gather Bill is obviously no longer still alive.
BP: Oh, no. He died when he was about sixty two.
MC: Sixty two.
BP: Yeah.
MC: He wasn’t very old then.
BP: Cancer. No. And my sister as well. She was sixty two. They both died.
MC: Oh really. Both died at sixty two.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Oh, goodness me. Yeah.
BP: Well, Doreen was six months older than Bill and she died six months after Bill had died so they were the same age more or less.
SP: Are we —
[recording paused]
MC: So, when are you actually he was obviously brought back through the lines by the French.
SP: Yeah.
MC: And then he —
SP: I’ll just —
MC: And then he tied up with the British troops did he?
SP: Yeah. I’ll just re-read this. These are his exact words.
MC: Is that what you read before?
SP: Yeah. The document says, “Secret,” at the top of it but I don’t think that applies anymore, do you? For a while I did wonder about that because being an ex-copper, signing the Official Secrets Act I thought maybe I shouldn’t be doing this but God, it was 1944. “On the 25th of August I was moved to an address in Hesdin and remained there until I contacted British troops on the 3rd of September.
MC: Oh. So he contacted the British troops.
[recording paused]
MC: Right, it’s just to say thank you Betty. Anyway, thank you for the interview, and to you, Stuart.
SP: No problem.
MC: Much appreciated, and we’ll, we’ll get this on file. Thank you very much to both of you.
BP: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Betty May Pearson
William Mollison Walton
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APearsonBM180312
Format
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00:22:31 audio recording
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France
France--Hesdin
Description
An account of the resource
Her brother-in-law William Mollison Walton, after training to be a pilot in Canada, was based at RAF Swinderby with 97 Squadron. In 1944 his aircraft was attacked and he baled out. He spent two days on a small island where he buried his parachute, He was eventually being taken in by a French family. William was visited by the chief of the resistance organisation and was taken to Hesdin where he remained until British troops helped him back home. William ended up as a Pathfinder.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-24
1944-06-25
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
97 Squadron
bale out
bombing
bombing of the Pas de Calais V-1 sites (24/25 June 1944)
evading
home front
love and romance
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
RAF Swinderby
Resistance
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1087/11545/ARaineyDC180607.2.mp3
e4e0f9a91379454954ba0c8402533130
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rainey, Donald
Donald C Rainey
D C Rainey
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Donald Rainey (b.1928). He grew up in Scopwick near Lincoln and witnessed three crashes.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rainey, DC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Donald Rainey. The interview is taking place at the home of Mr Rainey’s daughter, Mrs Barker in North Hykeham, Lincoln on the 7th of June 2018. Also in attendance is Mrs Wendy Barker.
[recording paused]
WB: Go.
MC: Well, thanks for doing the interview, Don. What I want to start off with is right from the beginning. You asked me how far back I want to go. When and where were you born?
DR: Cranwell Air Force, Air Reserve because my, my mother’s sister husband was a big wig in Cranwell. Teaching through all the war.
MC: So you were born there.
DR: And that’s how I was born there but I lived at Scopwick.
MC: When was that?
DR: At the Royal Oak.
MC: When was that that you were born?
DR: 1927.
MC: ’27.
DR: Yeah. That makes me old.
MC: Yeah. No [laughs] There’s a few of you still around. So what did your parents do?
DR: They lived in the pub. The Royal Oak at Scopwick.
MC: Oh, did they?
DR: Yeah. And in that pub in the war we had George Formby’s wife for ENSA. And she stopped at our pub for about four days entertaining the troops. Beryl they called her, didn’t they? Beryl. George Formby’s wife. Beryl. And she stayed at the Royal Oak at Scopwick in the war entertaining the troops in Digby. In the aerodromes.
MC: So you went to school in Scopwick.
DR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. What was school —
DR: I left in 1942.
MC: What were schooldays like in those days?
DR: Useless.
MC: Did you enjoy school?
DR: Yeah.
MC: Oh, you did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so tell me so when war broke out how old were you? That would be ’26. Be fourteen.
DR: About just before the war.
MC: Twelve. Thirteen. Twelve or thirteen.
DR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
DR: I left school at fourteen. Had to do and go to —
MC: Yeah. Yeah. A lot did.
DR: And I went to engine, apprentice engineering. British Crop Driers.
MC: You did well.
DR: Yeah. I got a job straight away.
MC: Yeah. You did in those days.
DR: A fitter, maintenance fitter. Seven years apprentice it was in them days.
MC: Yeah. So, you did a full apprenticeship, did you?
DR: Yeah. Seven years.
MC: So when you were, so when war broke out you were, you were still in Scopwick.
DR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So tell me some of the stories about Scopwick then and what you saw.
DR: Saw? All the Air Force. In our pub at Scopwick after the first war they extended it because we’d got that many customers. Air force. Airmen and WAAFs from Digby aerodrome, you know.
MC: So you mentioned about this Lancaster you saw.
DR: Yeah.
MC: Doing fighter affiliation.
DR: That was, that was the one. That was in the, at the end of the war, wasn’t it? It was the 11th of March 1945 it crashed. And it got hit with that Spitfire and it chopped the back end clean off. And that landed at, near Scopwick Station. The tail end did.
MC: Where did the rest of it go then?
DR: The back of the Ash Holt Woods between Blankney and Scopwick. Outside the main road between Blankney and Scopwick. And they was all killed.
MC: Did you have a lot to do with the RAF at the time?
DR: No. I didn’t go to, I didn’t go in the war.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Because I was a bit too one life, and I’d done, and I was doing an apprentice. They didn’t call you up —
MC: No. I just wondered whether you met any of them on a regular basis?
DR: Oh, I did. In the Air Force.
MC: Up until —
DR: The pilots from Digby.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Definitely we did.
MC: Yeah.
DR: They used to come over our pub swooping when they come back.
WB: Dad used to play the piano accordion in the pub.
DR: Aye. In the pub.
MC: Your dad did.
DR: I did.
WB: No. You did.
MC: You did. You played the piano accordion.
DR: I was taught. Yeah. I was taught music.
MC: Who taught you to play music? Music then?
DR: A firm in Lincoln it was them days.
MC: Oh right.
DR: And then I used to play in the pub. Aye.
MC: You weren’t very old then.
DR: I weren’t. I were seventeen. Eighteen. I was eighteen then.
MC: Yeah. So that would be, yeah towards the back end of the war then.
DR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So were you —
DR: And that —
MC: So, and any other instances that you remember from that time?
DR: About the beginning of the war Waddington, I don’t know if anybody knows this there used to be a red flashing light at Waddington Aerodrome. And what they did they used to stop that at night and they used to have a decoy and pull it between Scopwick, on the [Mere?] Lane on a Saturday night for a decoy for the Germans. Not. You know, we used to see it.
MC: That’s, that’s interesting.
DR: That’s true that is. A big decoy. And they used to have that flashing at night and to deflect the Germans didn’t it for they’d think it was the Waddington area.
MC: Yeah.
WB: They said they would bomb the fields then instead of the camp. Yeah.
DR: Aye. They did.
MC: Yeah.
DR: That was another thing they did.
MC: So what about this fuel leak then you were telling me.
DR: Oh, that was, that was after that was. After the war.
MC: Oh was it?
DR: When the Vulcans was there.
MC: Oh right.
DR: But between that a Vulcan, one of them was trying to land at Waddington. Something wrong with it. Three or four of them. No. Three jumped out and one man’s parachute, and he dropped at Dunston Pillar and it killed him. Did you ever know that? Then the pilot got the Vulcan landed. But others, some of them jumped out but one didn’t and he dropped in at Dunston Pillar in my firm’s land.
MC: Yeah.
DR: He got killed.
MC: So what about the war time? I mean, you mentioned about this Lancaster. Were there any others?
DR: Oh scores of Spitfires crashing. Ever so many. At Scopwick village cemetery there’s seventy some odd burial graves there.
MC: And they were all —
DR: Memorial.
MC: And that’s all people killed.
DR: Yeah. All Canadians. All Digby was all Canadian Air Force.
MC: Yeah.
DR: And the bloody, the Germans used to keep bombing that every other night. Air raids that they used to bomb the airfields so the Spitfires couldn’t land. So what they did they took a hundred some acres of Parker’s land, made a dummy airfield so they could land there. Then they took all the WAAFs to Blankney Hall. Did you know that? Did you know? To do the plotting at Blankney hall because they bombed Digby no end of times and got so, you know a few got killed there.
MC: Yeah. So they moved them to Digby Hall.
DR: Yeah. To Blankney Hall.
MC: Blankney Hall.
DR: Then they got it set fire and burned down, about near the end of the war that was at Blankney. Blankney Hall. Aye.
MC: So what about you know you talked about the Lancaster and the Spitfires. Any any other incidents that you can remember?
DR: Aye. On Easter Monday when they bombed Digby they were shooting with bloody guns after this bloody German plane and they got it down. And they’re buried at Scopwick. These Germans.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
DR: Aye. I can remember that. It was a long time ago though isn’t it? Just let me have a look at —
[recording paused]
DR: That you get from planes.
MC: When you were a boy you used to collect it.
DR: After the, after, in the war it was. You see we’d nothing else to do as I say. And another thing they had at, night at Scopwick there used to be a big beck if it’s still there and it was the blackout, wasn’t it? They used to come out of the pub. Kept on falling in the bloody beck. No idea. I can remember that.
WB: They’d obviously had one or two too many.
MC: So where did you go to pick this ammunition up? Did you go —
DR: Well, where the planes crashed.
MC: Oh right [unclear]
DR: They used to leave no end. They used to leave no end and there was another one crashed. I reckon there was some. I think it came from Metheringham. It crashed at Scopwick in, near Scopwick Railway Station and I reckon the graves were still there. That’s near when we, just before you get over to Scopwick Station to come to Timberland around the back there and one crashed there. A Lancaster. And I reckoned that was from Metheringham ones I reckon.
MC: Oh aye. Yes.
DR: Yeah. We was always going to go to that but we didn’t go because it was blazing like hell that. Because we were on our bikes. Do you know what I mean? [unclear] There was nowt else to do then but. And then with the bloody, if you were in the old fields, them days we used to be out with say bird, or nesting, and the bloody Germans would come over you at head height, in case they machine gunned you. Planes, up at Digby. They were trying to keep Digby down because it was a fighter station, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. It was.
DR: And then when we worked at Temple Grange that’s there, we could see Digby. And I see thirty Flying Fortresses land in Digby. Aye. Because they couldn’t get down in Norfolk because of the dense fog. And they were there. Thirty. As I say some of them Yanks used to come to our pub. It’s all in this book. If you ever got that book it’s in there about it.
MC: Is that the, “Slightly Below the Glide Path.”
DR: Aye. It’s in there about —
MC: About Digby.
DR: Digby.
MC: Yeah.
DR: And the funerals. There’s a Memorial. I was brought up massive funerals there was at Scopwick. Military, you know. [pause] My grandad took that Scopwick pub in 1864. Them days. And he had a bit of a land holder there and they had the pub. That was his pub in them days. And they had a farmyard at the back of it. A lot of land. You know. Olden days wasn’t it? That’s what happened. Then we had three, he had three daughters. My mother and two more and they all married service people. The three of them. And my father, by 1926 he come up from Somerset and he was a fitter at Digby working on the double wingers. Engines. Aeroplanes. Just before the war. Not those double they had before the war. Scopwick Puff or something. Double wing planes used to be at Digby just before the war. That’s how my dad met my mother in Scopwick pub, you see.
MC: He came up from Somerset.
DR: Yeah. He lived at somerset. He would, he would be eighteen I think when he came up there. Somehow he got. I don’t know how he got there. He joined, working on the air, the old aeroplanes.
MC: Yeah.
DR: The olden days. That’s how he got to that area you see.
MC: It would be interesting to know what aeroplanes they were. You said —
DR: Scopwick Pup, wasn’t it?
MC: Oh, Sopwith Pup.
DR: Aye. That were them.
MC: That’s it. Yeah.
DR: That was at Digby. Just before the war. Aye.
MC: Goodness me. That was [pause] yeah. They were a popular aircraft in the First World War.
DR: Yeah. That would be 1927/26 because I was born ‘27 28 and he was, met my mother in the pub, you see. She was only eighteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. In them days that was a sin weren’t it [laughs]
[recording paused]
DR: Name. I forget his —
MC: No. No. It’s ok. You say there was another fighter pilot buried at Scopwick.
DR: One of them. And after the war they came and took his body up in the middle of the night. And then they come up with four bodies in a lorry and parked in my grandad’s yard, barn yard for the night. And they got, and his name and his photo’s in here in this flight book. I forget what they called him. They took him back to Belgium. His body.
MC: Oh right.
DR: And there’s a plaque at Scopwick where they dug him up from. Aye. That were after the war that was. And I know that.
WB: Because I suppose people would want their families home wouldn’t they? If at all possible. Yeah.
DR: Aye. Was full of Air Force.
MC: Yeah. So what were the nearest air bases to you then? So there was Digby.
DR: Digby. There was a bomber one was Metheringham.
MC: Metheringham.
DR: And then, then Waddington.
MC: Waddington. Then of course Digby.
DR: Then there was another one at Coleby Grange. That one. That was all interlinked with Digby.
MC: Yeah. So you were pretty well surrounded by them.
DR: Yeah. Every night around us bombers going off and off and off.
MC: Yeah. Did you used to watch them at night?
DR: Yeah. The noise. They used to pan around don’t they? To get up.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
DR: Aye. But the Germans was all after Digby.
MC: Yeah.
DR: So they couldn’t, the fighters couldn’t get back down. And they did that [unclear] you know, the emergency landing strip.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Aye.
[recording paused]
MC: So you used Scopwick house for.
DR: Big house.
MC: Yeah.
DR: And the Air Force commandeered it and made it into a hospital for Digby Aerodrome.
MC: Did you ever get a chance to visit any of these places?
DR: Yeah. We used to go there every Monday night at Digby, Scopwick. You’d have a film show for all the patients in this big house. Aye. From Digby Air Force. Aye. That’s right.
MC: Yeah.
DR: That was another thing they did.
MC: So they allowed you in.
DR: Yeah. They —
MC: As the public as well as the —
DR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
DR: Because I used to know them coming down the pub.
MC: Yeah. Of course you did.
DR: Said it was me.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Then after the war we had a gang of Germans in a big building there. Prisoners at Scopwick. No end of them.
MC: Did you meet any of them?
DR: Aye. One was a nasty sod and he was a Nazi. He had a tattoo on his arm. The other ones weren’t but there was one nasty one there. Yeah.
MC: You didn’t make friends with them then.
DR: No. They weren’t. We met them after the war. They were working on the land for Parker’s that I worked for then.
[recording paused]
DR: Aye.
MC: Entertainment.
DR: Yeah. George Formby’s wife. Beryl.
MC: Yeah.
DR: She came and she stayed at our pub for four days and she was entertaining the troops out at Waddington, at Digby and Metheringham.
MC: She was.
DR: Yeah. George. Beryl, they called her. George Formby’s wife. She worked for ENSA.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
WB: Mensa.
MC: No. ENSA.
WB: Oh, was it ENSA?
DR: Aye.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Aye.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Toured around in a big car she was in them days. Aye. Beryl.
MC: I never knew that.
DR: It’s true that is.
MC: Yeah. So you used to have bed and breakfast in your pub.
DR: Yeah. Well, we had, there was six bedrooms in our pub. And they knocked, knocked the lot, the end off after the war because they reckoned it was too dangerous with the narrow road going up to Sleaford. So you can see where the end piece was chopped off. The kitchens and all that bit. Aye. But I’ll tell you they put an extension on our pub after, in the war because there were that many customers.
MC: Yeah. Because it’s still there.
DR: Yeah. You go in there and you’d see. You go in the front door, turn left. There’s like a long bar. The tap we used, there used to be a tap room we called it in them days for the roughs, and the posh would be in the, then they built another L shape on the back. In the gardens.
MC: Did they have any memorabilia in there of the RAF at all?
DR: My mother and father was the last person I was in there. I don’t know whether — it’s changed hands four or five times since.
MC: Yeah.
DR: So, I don’t know now. And every, every Saturday night at Scopwick they used to packed in the village hall dance. All in a big dance in a wooden hut. Packed it was. Every Saturday. You used to have to shut down while about 11 o’clock them days, didn’t they? Not allowed on Sunday.
MC: No.
DR: No entertainment.
MC: That’s what it was like. Yeah. So it was packed with airmen was it?
DR: Airmen. WAAFs. I mean, I mean, and I was they used to come down on bikes from Digby. Leave their bloody bikes. No one cared did they? And my dad in his own car would take them back home to Digby. Some of them. That was about a mile wasn’t it to walk from Digby aerodrome down to Scopwick. That was the nearest pub from Digby aerodrome.
MC: So it must have been popular.
DR: It was. There were any more in them days. Then we got short of beer. It was rationed a bit.
MC: Was it?
DR: Yeah. In them days. Yeah. In the end.
MC: You must have been popular if you ran out of beer.
DR: True. That was true that was. Aye.
[recording paused]
DR: Put it on?
MC: Yeah. Do you want to —
DR: All the fighter pilots all had a revolver with them, flying. Did you know?
MC: Yeah.
DR: Because we were all given the bloody gun. That’s true that is [unclear] because I was on about guns and that. Flaffing about.
MC: You talked about rationing. So what was food like?
DR: We was alright because my grandad had a farm. We had pigs.
MC: I was going to ask.
DR: Chickens. And all the apple trees and pear trees up in the back gardens you see because my grandad had that farm. Part of it. So we weren’t, we were lucky.
MC: Yeah. So you had plenty to eat. Did you used to share it around?
DR: A little bit. Aye.
MC: Were you a big family then?
DR: No. No. I was the only one.
MC: Oh, were you?
DR: Yeah. And my, my mother’s sister she only had one. That’s all there was. There was only two of us. I’ve only got one more cousin. But there’s a few more down Somerset from my dad’s relatives down, but we don’t see them now.
MC: No.
DR: We’ve lost them.
MC: So you hid, you were given the gun were you?
DR: Aye.
MC: And you had to hide it.
DR: I chopped it up at our works and I chucked it in the bin.
MC: Oh, did you? Oh, you didn’t keep it.
DR: No.
MC: It was a bit dangerous wasn’t it?
DR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
WB: Yeah.
DR: What I did I had an air rifle. A 22 air rifle. I was training to be a lathe worker, tap work, and I turned a twenty two barrel round and pressed it on inside the roller and all the firing pins were a rim fire. For twenty two cartridges [makes noise] True that is.
MC: That’s the advantages of being an engineer.
DR: Yeah. Trained up lathe work. See.
MC: Yeah. Who was it your worked for?
DR: Blankney Estates. Parker’s.
MC: Oh right.
DR: Did you hear of them?
MC: Yeah. They had their own engineering workshop.
DR: Yeah. They did. We had forty thousand acres of land in the finish.
MC: Yeah.
DR: We started off with British Crop Driers. Then they split it. But it was too big for one workshop to do all the lot and we had a new workshop built at Blankney for the bottom half of [pause] Aye. They took the Londesborough Estate didn’t they? All that lot. Took everything. Even my grandad’s land. They came up from Norfolk just before the war from the Queen. He used to farm the Queen’s Estate at Sandringham.
MC: Oh right.
DR: And they all come up to this area of Lincolnshire. They took the lot. All the Lincolnshire Showground. All up there. North Carlton. That belonged to Parker’s.
[recording paused]
DR: The fighter pilots. There were no end of them and when they’d been out on a raid they used to come back over Scopwick. Oour pub. Zoom.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Around the back.
MC: So going up the Memorial Spire that reminds you. Reminded you of them.
DR: Yeah. But the Memorial at Scopwick is still missing, you know.
MC: Yeah.
DR: The big one.
MC: Yeah.
DR: All that lot in there. But the, but the military funerals used to come, every. How many were there? About seventy buried in Scopwick.
MC: Yeah. You said.
DR: Massive funerals there in the Air Force.
[recording paused]
MC: So what did the WAAFs do?
DR: I say, they used to come down and swim in Scopwick Beck. We was dam, the, where the farmer was at bottom end of Scopwick he used to bank the beck up so the water’s deep and they used to on a Sunday or a Saturday they used to be down there in the summer swimming in Scopwick Beck.
MC: So, this was the WAAFs.
DR: Yeah. Anybody could. No end. In the summer. That’s true. That’s another thing. It’s unbelievable. It used to be about six foot deep at least. They used to be jumping in and diving in. Scopwick Beck.
WB: Well, the water would be lovely then, wouldn’t it?
DR: Yeah. That was another thing that used to happen.
[recording paused]
DR: The first thing I drove was lease and lend after the war. But our firm had about five or six Yankee jeeps running about the farms. That was the first vehicle I drove across the fields. Left hand drive Yankee jeeps. Classed as a lease and lend. Lease and lend, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah.
DR: Aye.
[recording paused]
MC: You had to, you left school and then you had to work then.
DR: If you didn’t go to Grammar School at fourteen you had to go to work. When you was, and if your birthday was in November but you had to go to school until Christmas. You couldn’t leave school on your [pause] you finished at the end.
MC: At the end of the term.
DR: End of the term. That’s it. And I worked, it was Parker’s in them days. They’d come up from Norfolk.
MC: How long was your apprenticeship?
DR: Seven years.
MC: Seven years.
DR: Seven years. We used to go down Monks Road once a week. The old place. It’s still there for the, we learned to lathe and weld, acetylene weld and all that in the war. Petrol was rationed.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Farmers used to get extra.
[recording paused]
MC: So you were saying they used to, going back to this shooting. They used to come and practice their shooting.
DR: Yeah. In Scopwick pit.
MC: Had they dug the pit?
DR: The big pit. Then they dug a big trench at the end where they sunk the boards up, and blokes used to be in this pit, in the pit in the back of the board marking the board where the bullets had gone. Practicing. And we were at the top of end of Scopwick watching them. Every Sunday they used to come down. Shooting at that pit. And that’s still to this day you can see where that other pit was dug. In Scopwick.
MC: So this was Army as well as Air Force.
DR: Yeah. And the Air Force. Practicing.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Aye. With rifles and machine guns. So that that was another thing they used to do at Scopwick. And that’s there to this day. You can say if they ever got in Scopwick pit where they dug the pit so the men could be under the bullet with the [makes noise] flying all over. That was another incident there you see.
MC: Come down. This is a flax factory.
DR: The flax factory on the Metheringham Heath Lane. Because the Germans used to try bombing that because at the end the, where that lane is was Coleby Grange.
MC: Oh yeah.
DR: Flying field there.
MC: So they’d probably been trying to bomb Coleby Grange.
DR: Yeah. Aye.
MC: And got the flax factory instead.
DR: Aye. Aye. They built, they built an air raid shelter right round the side of it. That was another lot of works in the war. An anti-aircraft gun on the road side there there was. Down Meg Heath Lane. You can see the stand was, where it was on defending the area.
MC: Were there a lot of anti-aircraft guns around that area?
DR: Yeah. Rowston Hill Top. Have you heard of that? And just past Digby area. Another anti-aircraft gun centre there. Parker’s land again. Near Rowston Hall that was.
MC: So you didn’t see any German aircraft brought down?
DR: Not brought, I see them shooting that one Easter morning when they bombed Digby and it killed, it killed some WAAFs as well that bomb. Aye. A few got killed and they were shooting. Then the guns stopped and the fighters come chasing them because they can’t shoot with the fighters after them. And the shrapnel was dropping because we were outside our pub watching. ‘They said come in. There’s shrapnel.’ From the shells bursting dropping down. There’s no end if you stop and think what happened. But the best bits is when the WAAFs would come out the pub and drop in the beck because it was black out [laughs] Oh, airmen did as well. Not only WAAFs.
MC: Yeah. Because it was dark.
DR: It was dark innit [laughs]
MC: Yeah.
DR: And it was deep in them days. Still there to this day the beck is. And that’s where they used to swim. Right at the bottom. Half a mile further down because it got deep because it only started at the top end of Scopwick that beck did. Out the ground. Come building up from where it started. And when my uncle come he was a warrant officer at Cranwell. When he used to come to the Scopwick pub he had to take his uniform off because everybody were saluting him. All [laughs] it was a right bloody game it was. He used to come because he married my mother’s sister you see.
WB: Was that Dorothy?
DR: Dorothy. Yeah. And he finished a wing commander at Halton at the end of war. Finished the post. Left after the war. He’s passed away now. He came —
MC: So, what did he do in the war?
DR: He was, trained pilots at Cranwell. Teaching people to fly.
MC: Oh he was a flying instructor.
DR: Aye. He was. That’s how I got born at Cranwell. In their hospital. Through my dad being in the forces. Fighters at Digby. A mechanic what he was.
MC: So your dad was in the forces then you say.
DR: He was at the beginning of the war. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Then he come out after the war.
MC: Yeah.
DR: Took the pub over because my grandad sold that pub to a firm called Soames Brewery but he kept all the land and the farm. Then my dad went as landlord of the pub.
MC: Yeah.
DR: All through, all through the war. He’d seen my mother. That’s how it worked. And my grandad died on the day the war broke. Brought on 1939, weren’t it? Aye. So my granny really brought me up because the pub was full. We had two bar women every night in the pub.
MC: Busy in those days.
DR: Oh God. It was. It was unbelievable. Nowhere else for them to go. Some of the Yanks came from them Flying Fortresses used to come down to Scopwick. So there was thirty planes then. There was ten people in each plane. They had to get that lot mended because it was that dense fog. They couldn’t land in Norfolk. Because we could see it from Temple Grange. It was across from Digby. All them bloody planes that day, one day when I went to work. I was working up there in them days. All them. They had a job to get off again. Had to wait for the wind. Certain day, when they got them out the, and I tell you the fighters was landing on another piece what they’d emergency landed.
MC: So you, you stayed with Parker’s throughout.
DR: All my life.
MC: My goodness.
DR: Forty five, fifty years.
MC: Goodness me.
DR: I had a good job.
MC: I was going to ask you what you did after the war but that’s, it’s what you did after the war.
DR: That’s true that is. And I stayed on for four, for four years at, for six months a year keeping on while they trained me up you see. I’d keep going you see because they used to do peas for Bird’s Eye at Grimsby. And what they did them days they used to send a student out all day and night clocking all the lorries out every two hours. Because they had to have around about fresh peas every two hours. And they used to say if that that lorry aint got his load of peas up for to go to Grimsby he still had to go after the time. Because they’d tell you’d they’d been well two hours from the frozen and that was true that was but they used to clock you. This person used to clock the lorries out. You couldn’t stop on if you hadn’t been broke down. Make your load up. You had to be off. He did.
MC: Goodness me.
DR: And that lot, them lorries them days there was the only one allowed to drive off with the hours running because it was perishable goods. Peas weren’t they? You couldn’t stop when you’d done your hours. They were exempt that was. Perishable goods.
[recording paused]
DR: In Mannheim was Lanz. In the war they flattened Mannheim. The British did. You know. Bombing them. And after the war it rebuilt up and it went to John Deere. And that’s where all the John Deere’s come in this country come from. Mannheim. And they land at Langar. Have you heard of Langar? Near Nottingham. Aerodrome. And that’s their, that’s the dropping point. All stuff come to Langar. Then it’s distributed. What I’m getting at we were send to Langar twice a year to keep up with all the trends in John Deere’s, new coming in. They was training us there in the new technology of John Deere’s at Langar.
MC: So John Deere’s equipment used to come from Mannheim.
DR: Yeah. To England. That was the manufacturing factory there at Mannheim. It used to be Lanz. And it got, and if you wanted a tractor John Deeres got the Lanz symbol on. Are you on there? But the Americans they sell them. They have them in America. They get dropped off. But in England it all goes to Langar. All John Deere stuff. And our firm had an agency. Parker’s at Metheringham they were. Then it went to Louth. Louth Tractors. Have you ever heard of that? Well, that belonged to our firm, because you had to get out of the ranges to get another one up. Another one at Dyke. Have you ever heard of it? Near Bourne. Dyke. There’s an agent’s shop there as well. That was our lot.
MC: Well, thank you very much, Don. I’ve got a fair bit there. It’s nice. And thank you very much for taking the time to, to be interviewed.
WB: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Donald Rainey
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARaineyDC180607
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:34:53 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Rainey was born in 1927 and he lived with his family at the Royal Oak in Scopwick. Donald remembers George Formby’s wife, Beryl staying at the pub for four days in the war whilst entertaining the troops at Digby. Got a job as an apprentice engineer at British Crop Driers, as a maintenance fitter. Donald describes life in Scopwick during the war. Scopwick was surrounded by RAF stations and Donald describes the pub and meeting servicemen there. Donald remembers aircraft being shot down. Donald describes the pub as always busy as there was nowhere else for servicemen to go.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Benjamin Turner
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03-11
childhood in wartime
crash
ground personnel
prisoner of war
RAF Blankney Hall
RAF Digby
RAF Metheringham
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1154/11712/AThomasPG180302.1.mp3
5f48a36e221c6e96879ffcba1c0006cb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Thomas, Peter
P Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Peter Thomas (b. 1923, 1524026 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a navigator with 149 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Peter Thomas and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Thomas, PG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: The interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The Interviewer Is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Peter Thomas. The interview is taking place at Mr Thomas’ home at [buzz] Lincoln on Friday the 2nd of March 2018. Also in attendance is Peter Selby and Catherine Selby. Ok. Peter, what I’d like to start with is just to start with just tell me a bit about when and where you were born.
PT: Oh, I was born 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson. Are you picking that up?
MC: Yeah. That’s fine.
PT: Yeah. That’s where I was born. Nelson.
MC: When was that?
PT: 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson. There’s a lot of twenty sixes in my life and I regard them as being of good fortune. So I was born at 26 Glenfield Road, Nelson.
MC: In Lancashire.
PT: Lancashire.
MC: Yeah. What, what did your parents do?
PT: My father was a furniture manager and my mother stayed at home and she had three sons to look after. You know going to work and playing football and taking dirty washing to her, you know [laughs] from football because it was a slushy, a bit of a slushy pitch.
MC: What do you remember about your schooldays then, Peter?
PT: Oh, I liked, in contrast to my younger brother who didn’t like it I loved the school. It was Nelson Secondary School and it was just, I don’t know. I should have brought a photograph of it but it was just off the off the, off Walton Lane and it was on Oxford Road. So From Glenfield Road you went there, there and on Oxford Road and there behold. And in recent times, it was built in 1927 and the headmaster was a very strict man. He was. He was mad on getting people through. He was only interested in getting through, people through matriculation as it was then. So, I went there at in 1934 and I was about eleven.
MC: Yeah. And how old were you when you left school?
PT: When I left school?
MC: How old were you?
PT: 1940.
MC: Were you sixteen?
PT: Yeah. Sixteen or seventeen. Yeah.
MC: So what was your first job then when you left school? What did you do after you left school?
PT: When I was, I always had a, had a flair for writing. Not clever stuff. Just writing. Copy anything. And I went for a job at the Marsden Building Society but just when that came up there was another one in the Treasurer’s Department and I thought oh that’s my, that’s what I want. So I went to, I had an interview, borrowed my brother’s overcoat because it was a very small one and got through this interview and I think it was fortuitous that this interview the chap I interviewed or the gentleman I interviewed was Harry Crabtree and he was the, he was one of the old school treasurers. He’d got to the stage when he was back, he was a deputy treasurer but he was conveniently bypassed from the treasurer [Hyram] Reed who was a Geordie. Very clever man and he bypassed Harry Crabtree and came around to Steve Dyson. He was, he was the chief accountant and Steve [pause] was to do with [pause] Steve but there’s a funny little story about Harry Crabtree. He said, I was a junior at that time and he said, ‘Are you busy, Peter?’ And I said, ‘Well, no more than usual.’ Because I worked behind the counter and I also did another job which was ancillary to the ledgers that were being prepared and, ‘No,’ I said, ‘What do you want?’ ‘Just come into my office.’ So I got in to his office and the whole floor was covered with disused envelopes and he had a, he had a pile of new envelopes, new stick ons and we spent the afternoon sticking these temporary covers on these envelopes which was a bit strange for a deputy treasurer. But he was, I think they gave him, I think the only job that he got was I think he did loans. Something like that. Something that was really not, not responsible. The main man was [Hyram] Reed who came from the northeast. He was a Geordie and he was a clever man. And Steve Dyson, he was the chief accountant.
MC: So you worked there until you got, the you joined the —
PT: Eh?
MC: You worked there ‘til you joined the Air Force did you?
PT: Yes. Yes. I did.
MC: When did you join?
PT: I was there ‘til 1943.
MC: How old were you then?
PT: I was twenty then.
MC: Twenty.
PT: Yeah.
MC: So you —
PT: Well, I was born in 1923. So twenty. Yeah.
MC: So you joined the Air Force at twenty.
PT: I joined in nineteen [pause] Well, I joined in 1943 and I had to wait to go in. I wasn’t called up ‘til twelve months after.
MC: You were called up were you?
PT: Yeah. Well, I’d, I’d actually joined when I was about eighteen or nineteen. I can’t just remember the date.
MC: So, did you volunteer for aircrew then?
PT: Oh yes. Well, I’d had a little hiatus as it were and I, my, my friend was joining the Navy and I thought I’d have a go at the Fleet Air Arm and of course I didn’t get accepted because the gentlemen, there were these guys with the old, you know they were old sweats of, of the Navy. And they had bother with the, and one of them produced two, two aircraft and he said, ‘What’s this?’ and ‘What’s this?’ And I didn’t know because the gentleman in Nelson who was crazy to go in the Air Force and be a navigator he was a newly appointed headmaster at [unclear] Senior School. And because I wasn’t able to stay at the Primary School I’d been sent down and there was only me that went there. I can’t know why. But I went down to this Senior School, and I did twelve months and conveniently failed the scholarship again so, to go to the Grammar School. So anyway, I sat an entrance exam to the Grammar School and I was top of that school. Of that class. There were thirty and Francis Myers who was the temporary headmaster said, ‘Peter Thomas.’ So I stood up and he said, ‘You did rather well in arithmetic. We’ve got a place for you in the scholarship class.’ So having failed the scholarship exam twice I finished up in this scholarship class and it was very interesting, you know. Of course, it swelled my head a bit. Consequently, at the first exam at Christmas I was twenty nine out of thirty. That really shook me so after that I was never out of ten. I was always usually in the first five or six in the class in the exams and we were going to sit, we should have been able to sit for the [pause] for the school whatever exam it was but the, they introduced a remove over a year where we had to wait another year. So instead of it being a four year to, to matriculation if that’s the right word we had to wait ‘til, they called it five remove and I was in, in that situation with, with a lot of brainy fellas actually.
MC: That’s why you finished up at —
PT: In fact, there was only one fella —
MC: Yeah.
PT: In that class who managed to get in to the A Section and he was studying to be a doctor and he was KS Oate, of [unclear] Road, Nelson.
MC: My word.
PT: Yeah.
MC: What a memory.
PT: Sorry.
MC: Yeah. So what you, so you joined the Air Force say in ’43. Where did you first go when you joined up?
PT: Well, when I joined up I went to RAF Waddington and I think it was RAF Waddington I got, that’s when I —
MC: No. You did your basic. Where did you do your basic training?
PT: I went, I went to London to do to be accepted because you had the eye tests and hearing and eyes and curiously my friend who’d rode a motorbike he, when we came back I said, ‘How did you go on Milton?’ And he said, and he said, ‘They failed me.’ He said, ‘They failed me on eyes.’ He said, ‘I’ve, was riding my motorbike without goggles. I’ve altered the focal length of my eyes.’ So he was, so he said, ‘I’m going to be a despatch rider in the Army.’ He said, ‘I’ve finished with the Air Force.’ And he went back to his uncle who had a bakery and curiously enough he never got called up. He just worked in this bakery and he, he owned it eventually and that was that was my friend Milton Fothergill.
MC: Yeah. But you went to London and that was —
PT: I went to London.
MC: Aircrew Reception Centre.
PT: Pardon?
MC: Aircrew Reception Centre.
PT: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I went to London. And then from London I went to Paignton. That was ITW. ITW at Paignton. I was there four or five months and from there when I’d passed out of there we didn’t, we were at the Singer Estate and we did running and sport. And we had a fellow called Chang and he was a, he was a guy who wanted to drive you to kingdom come in running through this Singer Estate. And there was also a boxing ring you know but I didn’t get involved with that I can assure you. No. I’m not a boxer. Anyway, from, from Paignton we moved to [pause] I moved to Cambridge and I did four, twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths but I was, I was a bit unlucky. The first two hours the chap was an Australian pilot. A trainer. A teacher and he said ‘Oh, we’re not going to have any bother with you are we?’ And he came the next day and he said, he said, ‘I’ve been posted.’ He said, ‘I’m so sorry.’ So then we got another chap who [pause] who’d have been in an accident so he wasn’t very, I weren’t very happy with him. But in the meantime, a Manchester policeman called Charlie Kent grumbled about his position, his situation, so they gave him, they gave him my, they gave him, I got his trainer you see. And so as a result of that I didn’t get selected as pilot. When I got to Manchester and there was a big auditorium of combination of Nissen huts I suppose. I don’t know. It was a big hangar type of place and I was in there and my 026 was called out and they said, do you know they called out my name, my number 026 and I’ve a lot of stories on 026. Anyway, they said, ‘Yeah. Straight navigator.’ So I, well they didn’t say that but I knew that when he said what he’d intimated. That I wouldn’t be a pilot. I’d be a navigator. So that was alright. I mean I didn’t know what was what at the time.
MC: Did you, did you have to do any aptitude tests for navigator or did they just say you’re a navigator?
PT: No. They didn’t. I didn’t. I didn’t go up for, I went from Manchester to, I went from Manchester and I finished up in Liverpool to go on a ship to Canada. And when I was on this ship, I mention it in passing because we were still avoiding submarines. Still avoiding submarines and as we were going south during the day he got one of the, one of the chaps got burned and he was the, we were going down to the Azores where it was sunny. And then we came up the Atlantic coast past America, you know. New York and right and came into Halifax so that’s where I started my initial training. In Halifax.
MC: Obviously avoiding the submarines in the North Atlantic.
PT: Yeah. And avoided that. Yes. And I went to, I went on a train from Halifax to Moncton and that was a Receiving Centre. And I met a chap who lived up the street from me and he was Naval uniform and I said, ‘What are you doing here, Harold?’ I can’t remember his last name. He was called Harold anyway. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m, I’ve trained as a pilot in the Fleet Air Arm.’ So where I’d failed the interview for Fleet Air Arm he, who couldn’t pass his scholarship could. He had a job getting in to, he couldn’t get into the Grammar School. Anyway, he passed, passed for Fleet Air Arm. Anyway, and he’d done flying you know and he went back to England and I don’t think he, I think you won’t believe this but he’d failed on ship recognition. So, so he didn’t get much further in the, I think he finished up on trainers. You know. Link trainers. You know the sort of [pause] he was. He became a teacher.
MC: On link trainers.
PT: In that respect. And he were. He was a teacher anyway and he finished up a teacher. I mean they weren’t the brightest some teachers were they?
MC: Yeah [laughs]
PT: Anyway.
MC: So your navigator’s training started at Malton, Ontario.
PT: Basically yes. I mean we had a long journey from, from Halifax to, to Moncton and then on again through, through Montreal overnight down to, we arrived on the 1st of January nineteen forty something. ’43.
MC: ’44.
PT: ‘44. We arrived at Toronto and we were wondering around in this place and it were, it was the Town Hall. There were no, there were books and files and I don’t why, how we managed to get in and somebody eventually appeared and there’d been a notice of arrival and we got a gash meal you know. And then, then of course we were filtered out to, it was Malton. It wasn’t Toronto International then. It was Malton Airport and we, we were stationed there and that’s where I did my first flying.
MC: What aircraft was that in?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What aircraft was that in?
PT: Avro Anson.
MC: Oh, the Anson.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Yeah. And I did all the flying in Canada on Avro Ansons and I passed everything there. I used to get, I used to get, ‘Ahh Monsieur Thomas.’ That was a Polish, [Weselovski], and [Denowski] and they all wanted to fly with Peter Thomas because they knew I could do it because I’d had so much training with this Mr Brooks at the Senior School In Nelson and he, he trained me on navigation and I never, I never had any trouble with any problems in navigation because I got such a grounding in navigation. And of course, I passed out in Canada as a, as a navigator.
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: I was an LAC but my friend who I met on the ship going out he happened to be on the same walking around the ship at night with, with rifles supposedly on guard you know and we finished up together as friends. And when it came to the exams I was about fourth. Fourth on the course and he was seventeen. But he knew a general in Ottawa didn’t he? So, so that made it rather difficult for me. So he got the commission and I got three stripes. So I came back a sergeant and he came back an officer and he was very generous. He said, ‘You know they’ve robbed you haven’t they Peter?’ They knew, he knew what the game was you know because he’d been, he’d had a forty hour pass, forty hour leave and he’d gone up to see this general in Ottawa. So he, you know the wheels had turned you know and his father was Sir Arthur Smout who’d done, who was doing business on armaments with Paul Revere Incorporated who had a vast building in New York because subsequently David Smout as he was called, we were subsequently invited to have a weekend at New York. So we went overnight on the train to New York and David rang the, the Paul Revere Incorporated and we went around this level of where they were so that it, they showed us New York from four points you see.
MC: Brilliant.
PT: And then at dinnertime we went to the [pause] to the Columbia. I think it was the Columbia. It was a restaurant you know. I’ve forgotten the name of the restaurant. Anyway, it don’t matter and we had our meal with these and then these two gentlemen said, ‘Well, we play Bridge at Saturday afternoon.’ Him and his deputy. So he said, ‘We’ll see you at teatime at this address.’ It was on 5th Avenue. So they bundled me and David off to, to the Rockettes. You know, the famous American Rockettes. The girls who were dancing and stuff. And then there was other items and then they finished up with, with somebody called Doris Day, I think it was in, “Up in Arms.” Yeah. And we watched that. And then of course we, we appeared in these drab Air Force uniforms because all Americans were in if they were in khaki it was serge. There were none of this rough stuff and we were in these rough and we were introduced at 5th Avenue, at this address of this president and we were introduced as Lieutenant Thomas and Smout [laughs] And of course we were LACs weren’t we? Anyway, we didn’t tell them did we? And during that meal David managed to spill his ice cream and I I had a little argument about, with the other chappie, he was, of course they were very strict Conservatives and I was, I’d come from Nelson and Nelson was a [laughs] well you couldn’t be any stronger labour than Nelson. It was a really [pause] yeah. So then from there if you just let me finish, then from there when we, when I’d finished at —
MC: When you finished in Canada.
PT: In Toronto. I had the chance. I had the choice of going up to Montreal or, I’d seen a dance band. Louis Armstrong on the shores of Lake Ontario and, and that week that I was to go I had the choice to see to go and see Duke Ellington who was my, he was one of the great jazz musicians. Have you ever heard of him? Eh? Yeah.
MC: Indeed. Yeah.
PT: Anyway, I went to, I went to Montreal and I met a chap who was a writer in the Navy. A writer is a clerk I think, and this was Bill Farmer, he was, he became a solicitor but he was in the Navy and he was a writer and we met up and we had, well we had at least a day together and then I was left on my own. And then I met a nice lady from [pause] she was, she was a French lady. She spoke, because when I rang her up she said, ‘Oui?’ She didn’t say yes. She said, ‘Oui.’ And she spoke French of course and she spoke English as well so it didn’t matter. And then from there we went back. I went back to Toronto. I did my flying from Malton Airport. Malton Airport was, became Toronto International. Big stuff you know. Toronto International.
MC: So having finished your flying, your navigator training in Canada you then got shipped back to the UK.
PT: Yes.
MC: And where did you come to?
PT: And then when we had, we were in the, we were in a Dutch boat and we got a, the bells all ringing and it all went boom boom boom. We were in the middle of the Atlantic and quite frankly I was shit scared you know [laughs] and we had to appear on deck with our life jackets on like this and we were all lined up like that. And it were just an exercise to see if you could do it if it actually happened. So anyway, we arrived at Gourock in Scotland and we were then posted to Pannal Ash College which was just a holding place. We didn’t do any lessons there. But there was a, it was a, Pannal Ash College was it was probably a private school and they had a swimming pool outside which was, it had sort of been a temporary dugout and the water ran in and it ran out at the other end and the only way you could get in, you could get in at the top but the only way you could get out was at the bottom and it were freezing this water because it was a river you see. Anyway, we, that passed and we from there —
MC: So, there wasn’t any flying there.
PT: No. No flying there. No. No. I think, I think we went up to Millom and did, did some flying from there. And that was when we were flying from Chicken Rock and up to the, up to all the islands of Scotland. Did a lot, quite a bit of flying up there.
MC: And that was in Ansons again, was it? Oh right.
PT: Pardon?
MC: That was in the Avro Anson again. Avro Anson.
PT: Yes. The same as in Canada. And then we moved down from there to Husbands Bosworth.
MC: Was that —
PT: That was a —
MC: That was the Operational Training Unit.
PT: Yes. OT. Yes, it was. Yeah. And there we, we had this incident of not arriving. We were, we were flying on a, on a course and the engine, flight engineer who I think at that time was still the mid-upper gunner but he was looking after the petrol tanks, you know, switching the tanks. And he said, he said, ‘I think, I think we’ve got a problem here skipper with the, with the petrol. Supply of petrol.’ So they started then looking for somewhere to land. And they got, they got a position line from, from the wireless operator the Welshman, Peter [Hoare] and they went, they got this, they got this position line to Leicester. Leicester way. Leicestershire. Leicester. But before that happened the skipper noticed a landing place and it was, it was, it was a grass landing arrangement. It was [pause] I’ve just forgotten the name. I think, is it there?
MC: When was that? Was that while you were at Husbands Bosworth?
PT: When we came back to England that was.
MC: Yeah. It was.
PT: That was when we were [coughs] we were on a, on a —
MC: Was that at Millom?
PT: Pardon?
MC: Was that at Millom or Husbands Bosworth?
PT: That was —
MC: When you were at the OTU.
PT: That was, that was after Millom, I think.
MC: Yeah. The OTU.
PT: Yeah. And that’s when John spotted this landing. It was grass you see. It was a grass landing and they were training pilots because I met a chap there. He knew me from the Grammar School and we had a few days there and they were enjoyable and then we were carted back in a wagon to where we were you know.
MC: Because it mentioned that you force landed.
PT: Yes.
MC: At Penkridge.
PT: Yes. That’s right.
MC: Penkridge.
PT: Forced landing in this grass landing and we just of course it wasn’t it wasn’t designed for Wellington bombers it were designed for Tiger Moths you know. It wasn’t designed for [laughs] for landing these bigger aircraft and he just landed. And he’d had trouble landing this Wellington when we were at, when we were training on the Wellington. He had a devil of a job landing these Wellingtons. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. I was just about to ask you what aircraft.
PT: And —
MC: And you’ve just answered that. Yeah.
PT: The story goes that he used to just, he used to sing, “Johnny’s Hero,” when he were, when he were coming in to land you know. Anyway, we got through that and he landed and they just pushed the wheels over of this fence and that was it. We, we were carted back to the base with, to where we had come from with, in a van. In a wagon, you know. And the, they sent a chap to fly this Wellington to get it out of this grass landing affair. Of course, they landed in a, they landed in, they landed in a Morris Oxford, in an Oxford. There was an aircraft called an Oxford. It was comparable to the Anson.
MC: I know it.
PT: This Oxford, it had a little accident and landed so that was [other voices not part of interview] But finished with Wellingtons. We moved up to Lancasters. To convert on to Lancasters.
MC: Oh, it was a Conversion Unit. Yeah.
PT: Yeah. That was Woolfox Lodge and that’s where, that’s where I really was. I think about it even today one morning I was sat in the navigation room and there was a blue serge uniform. He was an officer and, and I didn’t really know this face but I knew the morning after when he wasn’t there that he was killed the day after. They came. This crew were regarded as being the best crew in the, in the intake. There were eight. I think they were either six or eight crews in the intake.
MC: Yeah. Can we just go back slightly? Obviously, you’ve gone to the Conversion Unit. When did you crew up?
PT: When what?
MC: When did your crew get together?
PT: Oh, did it, yes. When we moved from Millom where we’d done this Avro Anson flying we went to —
PT: Then you went to the OTU.
MC: Pardon?
PT: When you went to the OTU.
MC: OTU at —
PT: Husbands Bosworth.
MC: Husbands Bosworth.
PT: Yes. Is that when crewed up with them?
MC: Was that at Husbands Bosworth?
PT: Yeah. You’re not recording now.
MC: Yes. I am.
PT: Especially —
MC: Is that when you crewed up?
PT: Yes.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. But that would have been a five man crew there.
PT: I often tell the story about my younger brother who was always a tendency to knock me, you know. And being knocked with the elder brother and knocked with the younger brother because I was the middle one and he, I’m trying to think. Well, he’d be surprised who chose the pilot because there’s a story about who chose the pilot. Because I’m in the NAAFI queue or some queue and I’d been [he's left the door open] We moved from Millom to Husbands Bosworth and that’s where we crewed up. And we were in this queue and somebody tapped me on the shoulder and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘We’re looking for a navigator. We’ve got, we’ve got an air gunner and a mid-upper gunner and a wireless operator and a bomb aimer,’ he said. ‘But we haven’t got a navigator.’ And, ‘Would you like to join us?’ They knew I was a navigator. ‘Would you like to join us?’ And that. ‘Yes. I’m happy to join you if you think I’m suitable.’ And from there we chose the pilot. The pilot was called Dennis Johns and he was a, he’d been a public school lad but he was, he wasn’t, he didn’t strike me as being a very well educated man but he, he was, he was alright.
MC: Was he a good pilot?
PT: Sometimes we wondered. I wondered. They wondered about me with navigation. I wondered about him. But I have to say yes he was a brilliant pilot because we finished [laughs] We finished.
MC: You arrived at Husbands Bosworth. Yeah.
PT: And there’s, that’s where we crewed up.
MC: Yeah. You said.
PT: And we chose, we eventually chose this Johns for a pilot. We chose him. My younger brother would have essentially have said the pilot chooses the crew but no it wasn’t like that. It was always different to what he thought because he was, I was not knocked with, I had two brothers. An elder brother and the younger brother and I used to get knocked from both sides so —
MC: I remember you saying. Yeah.
PT: But —
MC: Yeah. So you went on the, on to the —
PT: I won though you know because they’re both dead [laughs]
MC: [laughs] Bless you. So you went to the Conversion Unit on to Lancasters.
PT: I went up to the, yes and this is where there was a tragedy. I don’t, I didn’t mention it.
MC: Yeah.
PT: There was a tragedy because they were, they were reckoned to be the best crew.
MC: Ah, you said. Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And —
MC: His uniform was there.
PT: And they were coming back from a diversionary sweepstake. No bombs. No. No. The war had nearly finished and they were coming back and they lost an engine and then they flew a bit further and they lost another engine. And then as they were coming in to land they had to just turn like that and he lost another engine. He went like that and they were all killed. And he was the chap that was sat next to me the morning before and he was, and I think, I think many a time about that that family losing that boy.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Because he was an officer. I probably wouldn’t have bothered if he’d been a sergeant like I was [laughs] Stamina.
MC: So, so when you finished at the Conversion Unit —
PT: Yeah.
MC: You were then posted to your first, your squadron.
PT: Yes.
MC: What squadron was that?
PT: 149.
MC: And where was that?
PT: Methwold.
MC: Methwold. So you —
PT: Methwold was a satellite of, I think it was a satellite of Mildenhall.
CS: You’re on the Mildenhall Register, aren’t you?
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yes. And that was obviously with the same crew. Johns.
PT: Oh yes. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: We were on. We were, we were crewed up together for about two years and then in the middle of 1946 I would say, you know. After we was, we were together from nineteen forty —
MC: Yeah. The story, I think goes while you were there about the Astro compass. Can you —
PT: Oh yeah. Well, that was on the operation.
MC: Oh, was it? Which operation was that?
PT: The Kiel.
MC: Oh Kiel. Yeah.
PT: Yeah. Kiel. Yeah. I should have kept my mouth shut but I didn’t as usual. Big mouth. No. I put this, I put this Astro compass . It was a disastrous operation. We got to the to the Danish coast and I warned the skipper. I warned him. I said, ‘We’re much too early. We’re at least twenty minutes. Fifteen twenty minutes too early. We should be doglegging.’ And of course, there’s a risk when you dog leg that these oncoming on stream can be, you can —
MC: Collisions.
PT: Go in to one.
MC: Yeah.
PT: So he didn’t want to do that. He said, ‘We’ll go in with the first wave.’ Typical Johns you know. And anyway we, I think when we, I think we were so early that when I got the message from what was being said that the main target was under the wing when we, when we got through so we missed that. So we turned around and we turned back to come back and this is where there was such lack of brains. We should have made allowances for all the time that we’d lost when we should have gone back up over the North Sea and got away from any impending German fighters because as we were flying the rear gunner said, ‘Port go.’ And Johns just put his wing [psst] and we lost about twelve thousand feet in no time. When we pulled out of this operation we were about six thousand feet, or six hundred feet. I’m not quite sure but I know, I know it were, it was a bit dangerous.
MC: So where does the Astro compass come into this story?
PT: Well, when, when we, I don’t know if it was before or after but when we were flying along and we were, we were trying to find out where we were the astrocompass it does not give you a fix but it gives you a position line. So when you put the astrocompass in the right way around, the first time I put it in the wrong way around but I mean that was so what? You were under a lot of stress then you know. I turned it around and put it in the right way and I said, ‘We’re going in a westerly direction skipper. You’ve no need to worry.’ And I asked him. I said, ‘Is your P4 compass working?’ He said, ‘Yes, but it’s better that you give me the position line,’ because the P4 compass it’s a bit dodgy really. It’s not, not too reliable. Anyway, we ploughed on and ploughed on and we, we had this incident with a fighter, with a German fighter when he said, ‘Port go.’ That meant go and Johns —
MC: Corkscrew.
PT: Responded to Cherokee. He was called, our rear gunner was called Cherokee and he came from Dumbarton. Yeah. Are you recording all this? Very good. And he came from Dumbarton and he was only a little fella but he were a good rear gunner. He spotted this one that was approaching us and went [psst]. We lost a lot of time. I think double quick time and never saw that guy. Now, possibly he thought well the war’s over why, why risk myself? Because he could have got shot down you know. We never saw him again and we kept ploughing on and ploughing on and then, then we, we flew as somebody said it’s a, we’re flying over a big lake and I knew what that was. It was the Zuiderzee as I knew it. And we got through the Zuiderzee and by that time, I’ve forgotten to mention that all through this operation the Gee box which gave you a fix, it gave you a position line and, and both. With the Gee box it was, it gave you a fix. You got these two posters.
MC: Yeah. Height and —
PT: The B Posts and the C Post and when you lined them up you locked the machine and it gave you a reading. And you had a special Gee box map which told you your, you read off the numbers and you got where you were.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And of course, it’s a lot. We was trusted. A bit stressful, you know.
MC: Well, the navigator. Yeah. Right. Of course.
PT: Yeah. Anyway, we got through this Zuiderzee.
PS: But they were jamming you, Peter weren’t, they were jamming you.
PT: Got through the Zuiderzee.
CS: At night. At night.
[recording paused]
MC: Yeah, but —
PT: Somebody else. And he said, ‘It hasn’t been so good, sir’. He said, ‘You’re first back,’ he said, ‘And don’t worry about anything,’ he said, ‘Because they’ve been all over the sky this operation.’ He said, ‘It’s been a real shocker,’ he said. ‘So you’ve done very well.’ And when I signed my, I signed it you know he said, ‘And that’s,’ he said, ‘When you get to Civvy Street,’ he said, ‘That’s signature is worth two thousand pounds.’
CS: Dad. When, when you did, when you dropped height when you’d seen the German fighter.
PT: Yeah.
CS: Isn’t that when all your —
PT: Oh yeah.
CS: Instruments went up in the air.
PT: When he, when he went like that.
CS: When you dived.
PT: He went. You flew up in the air and landed on the floor and dropped me down on my hands and knees trying to find these instruments you know. Pencil and that you know. Bits of stuff that you use you know.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: There was I think it was about as big as that book and it gave you, you set it up and it was a, it was like a mini computer.
MC: Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah.
PT: You know what I mean.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: You know what —
MC: Navigation computer. Yeah.
PT: Eh?
MC: Your navigation computer.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: Yeah.
MC: So the story also about the [unclear] navigator who was, whose Lanc crashed when he came back from a diversion raid.
PT: Yeah, and then crashed.
MC: What happened there?
PT: Well, they went —
CS: That’s the one that [failed]
PS: You had that.
MC: Oh, that is the same one is it. Yeah. It is.
PT: They went, they went they went on a diversionary sweep and as they were coming back they lost an engine. They were at Woolfox Lodge.
MC: Yes. That’s the one you were telling me about. Yeah.
PT: They lost an engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And then they lost another engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And —
MC: Yeah. You’ve told me about that. He flipped over his back.
PT: Over.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And they were all killed.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And that was the chap that was sat next to me the morning before and I knew who he was.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I didn’t know him personally but I know, I knew who he belonged to. So that was very sad. I’ve been thinking about him over the last —
MC: Bless you.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Terrible.
MC: So —
PT: Terrible loss to that family.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I think about it even today after all seventy or eighty years. Yeah. Terrible.
MC: Yeah. Do you want to have a break?
[recording paused]
PT: Worked at weekends. He was a subset. a sub editor on the —
CS: Was it the Thompson’s Newspapers up in Dundee?
PT: This is ET Thompson’s.
MC: Jock Fraser you say.
PT: Eh?
MC: Jock Fraser.
PT: Yeah. Jock Fraser. Yeah. It’s his dad.
CS: Was it his dad?
MC: What did he do on your crew?
PT: He was the bomb aimer.
CS: Was he not eighteen months ago dad?
PT: He —
CS: About eighteen months ago.
PT: Yeah. Is it eighteen months?
CS: Yeah. Something like that.
PT: Yeah.
CS: I mean he must have been well in his nineties too.
PT: Yeah.
CS: Yeah.
PT: He was the, I think, I think if you were reckoning brain power he was the, he was a very clever chap really. Good with words you know. If he wrote a letter he didn’t write pages. He wrote all that was necessary in one page and he were, he were clever you know on words. You know, he was, he was a good friend.
MC: So, tell me about this losing the engine.
PT: Pardon?
MC: You lost an engine during —
PT: Yeah.
MC: Coming back on.
PT: What happened was that after the war it were three group. Certainly 149 we were designated to photograph up to the Russian demarcation line. So sometimes we went down towards Switzerland and we were supposed designating —
CS: Designated.
PT: Different areas which we were trying to photographing but we’d a lot of trouble coming, going and coming because of the cloud formation. You couldn’t photograph if there were cloud formation. [unclear] Catherine’s mentioned. One morning we were at 9 o’clock we were at off, off the Norwegian coast and we were just, just about to either come back because there was not, we hadn’t got the too much cloud or some reason and we turned around. As we turned around as we were flying we lost an engine. So no problem we were coming back on three. So I wanted to go to the nearest landfall which was the Orkneys. Johns, Johns of course said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘We’re alright. Straight back to Cromer.’ Cromer which was the landfall into our base you see.
CS: Do you mean Cromer?
MC: Cromer. Yeah. I know. I realise what he meant.
CS: Yeah.
PT: Now in the Fleet Air Arm the navigator is the captain. Did you know that?
MC: Yeah. You told me.
CS: Maybe he wished —
PT: I’ve just told you now.
CS: Maybe he wished he’d been the captain that day.
MC: Then.
PT: I’ve told you now haven’t I?
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: I hadn’t told you before, had I?
MC: No. You hadn’t. No. I was thinking something when you said about the pilots. So yeah. So you made, you wanted to come back to nearest landfall but he decided to come —
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Come back to base.
PT: ‘No,’ he said, ‘We’ll be alright. We’ve got three.’ Well, that one that that this guy was with me.
MC: There was always the chance you’d lose an another one wasn’t there?
PT: Yeah. They lost three didn’t they?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. You didn’t want that happening to you.
PT: They lost three and lost their lives.
MC: Yeah. You were making, so why did he need to get back to base?
PT: And that same night [pause] Say what were you going to say.
MC: No. Why did he want to get back to base and not land up north?
PT: Perhaps he had a girlfriend that night. I don’t know.
CS: Well, my dad, my dad thought it was a girlfriend.
PT: He had a girlfriend in London. We could have had a trip to, there’s a place on the Norwegian coast. Now that name is just I haven’t got that name.
CS: Bergen?
PT: Eh?
CS: Bergen. Stavanger. Bergen.
PT: No. Not Bergen. No.
CS: Stavanger.
PT: Eh?
CS: Stavanger.
PT: Stavanger. No. No.
PS: Trondheim?
PT: Anyway —
CS: Trondheim.
MC: Trondheim probably.
CS: Trondheim. Trondheim.
PT: No. No.
PS: Tromso.
PT: Anyway, the thing was —
CS: What did you say? Trondheim. What was the other one?
PS: Tromso.
CS: Tromso.
PT: Eh?
CS: Tromso.
PT: No. I don’t know. I’ll have to look it up. That, that opportunity to go there and stay there.
CS: Right.
PT: It could have been dangerous but it was an opportunity to be based in Norway. Or Sweden.
CS: Do you mean, do you mean when you lost your engine to go and fly back to Norway.
PS: No.
CS: You don’t mean that do you?
PS: No.
PT: Say that again.
CS: I said you don’t mean when you lost an engine to go back to flying to Norway to land do you?
PT: No.
CS: No. You don’t mean that do you?
PT: There was no question of going back. No.
CS: No. No. No.
PT: The [pause] no there was no question and we never thought about that.
CS: No.
PT: Possibly we could have done if we’d thought about it but you don’t always thing about these things when —
CS: No.
PT: When you’re stressed.
CS: No.
MC: So did you, did you, I mean you did a raid on Kiel but after that it was did you fly any ops bringing prisoners of war back and —
PT: Yes.
MC: Operation Exodus.
PT: Did one of those.
MC: Operation Exodus.
PT: And I did two dropping food over Holland.
MC: Oh, Operation Manna. Yeah.
PT: Manna. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: There was a badge for that too.
MC: Yeah. I believe so.
PT: I never got that.
MC: I believe so. Yeah.
PT: A friend of mine who’s now deceased he got that badge. He, he was keen on badges and stuff like that. I couldn’t be bothered. Then when we were, when we were on, when we were at Methwold we were, we were wearing the 1939/45 badge. And then, and some others which would, I can’t just remember and they told us that we couldn’t wear that badge. You couldn’t wear that and that’s when Fraser said. ‘Well, if we can’t wear that badge, we joined up in 1943 and it’s 1946 if we can’t wear that badge well we won’t wear any of them.’ And he just he just washed his hands of it. Fred. And we just fed up with it and he gave the, gave the medals that he had, he gave them to his kids to play with he were that fed up.
CS: Yeah.
PT: But I I don’t know.
CS: So what were you, there was a badge you were given and then —
MC: Was this —
CS: And then the Ministry of Defence took it back off them didn’t they?
MC: Yeah. Yeah. It was a medal. He was on about, yeah you’ve got it down here. Peter.
CS: It’s amazing actually isn’t it that he did it?
PT: That’s Peter’s stuff.
MC: Yeah, it is. I just [pause] So when did you, I mean when did you fly over Niagara Falls?
PT: Oh, that was in Canada.
MC: Oh, while you were in Canada where it was.
PT: You can’t fly over —
MC: Not from the UK you can’t.
PT: You can’t. You can’t fly over Niagara Falls in Norway. It’s in Canada.
CS: It’s because he was based, he was based in Toronto.
PT: No. I was on a trip in Canada.
MC: I thought you’d gone back over there.
PT: Toronto to Hamilton and I was with this Flight Lieutenant [Bowen] who was, he was sort of, ‘I’ll go with, I’ll go with LAC Thomas today for a change.’ It was designed to see that everybody was being, was working according to plan. And he was with me that particular day and when we got towards Hamilton he he just. none of the civilian pilots on the shore and I don’t know what they were saying but he turned and we went to, we went to, and he turned and we went to Niagara falls. So we flew around and saw Niagara Falls from height. So when we were around the crew reunion do at, at the, at the hotel in, in Toronto. I just forget the name of the, in the big hotel and of course there were these menu things and Flight Lieutenant [Bowen] he was signing them, you know. Flight Lieutenant Bowen put his name. “Flight Lieutenant Bowen. Remember Niagara.” You know. That was that.
MC: Good memories.
PT: Super.
MC: Good memories.
PT: Super. Yeah. Wonderful.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So if we come back to, at 149 Squadron you flew Operation Exodus. Exodus and Manna. You flew on Manna. Were you quite low flying on Operation Manna, weren’t you?
PT: What?
MC: You were low. Flying low on Operation Manna supply drops.
PT: I didn’t know this. The don’t tell you about losses you know. I mean when we were at Woolfox Lodge and that one kite crashed on the runway nobody knew about it. Only that that same night some fighter bombers came over and shot two more of our intake. I’ve never mentioned that before.
MC: No.
PT: But that’s what happened.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We lost, we lost three crews out of our intake and I think there were eight. Eight crews. Eight sixes. There were six in a crew you see until we got the flight engineer and we didn’t get the flight engineer until we got to squadron.
MC: Yeah.
PS: I think where you were going with that Pete was that some aircraft were lost in Operation Manna.
PT: You said that.
PS: Yeah.
PT: It’s him that has [pause] it’s him that started all this nonsense. He fired us up and fired me up and —
PS: We got you the book about —
MC: Yeah, when I’ve talked to odd people, Dutch people I talked to Dutch people and they tell me about waving to the aircraft because they were so low.
PT: Yes. They did that with me when we went to, when we dropped food over Holland they had a big wide circle with Germans. They were starving too. With Germans and Dutch all around this and of course as we were dropping these boxes of margarine and whatever they’d be rushing in. But we weren’t, we were bothered about that because if you don’t get off the ground, if you don’t get off the, out of that situation and I remember being stood behind the pilot and a lady came out of a [pause] roof like and waving this Union Jack. That was good, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. You were low enough to see it all.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Never seen [pause] No. No.
MC: Yeah. So I think they were very —
PT: But do you know —
MC: They were very pleased to see you.
PT: Do you know, Mike. Is your name Mike? Yeah. I remembered your name. Mike. We went to a camp in nineteen, I just don’t know when it was. We were avid campers my wife and, well we had no alternative with children. We did a lot of camping and we got to a site near Riez. That’s the major town there. Riez. When you go to Riez you go about fifteen kilometres and you get to this Lak de St Croix and this lake was formed, it’s a, it’s a barrier supplying water to Marseilles and it was, it was the gorges of Verdun. Not the north one. The south one. There’s two gorges. There’s two gorges. There’s this one gorge and that one is in the south and he comes down and they started filling this barrier that they’d made, the French and it took them five years to fill. And when we got there in 1978 it were just about filling up. Yeah. Yeah. And they were swimming in it and paddling in it and of course the big thing was wind surfing so big head Peter went. I had a windsurfer off John Claude. He was the guy you know and I didn’t I fall off it [laughs] but we learned and my wife was a better windsurfer than me because the Dufour wing board, it was a little bit light for me. I weighed fifteen stone. I really needed a heavier [unclear] as he said. John Claude said, ‘You need a [unclear] Peter.’
PS: But Peter there was a Dutch —
PT: But we made friends with them you know.
PS: There was a Dutch connection at St Le Croix. The Dutch connection.
PT: Yeah.
PS: There was. That’s your story isn’t it? The Dutch were there.
MC: The Dutch.
PT: Oh, a lot of Dutch people there. Do you know you can’t believe this that we went to that camp for ten years and I never [laughs] I must have been as thick as two short planks I never ever, never mentioned that I’d ever been in an aircraft. That I’d ever been RAF navigator, you know. Which was a big big thing.
MC: To the Dutch it was.
PT: A big thing when you dropped food to them.
MC: Yeah. It is. Very much to the Dutch.
PT: And they were never mentioned.
MC: Yeah. They you are.
PT: Never mentioned that.
MC: They have got great affection for the RAF.
PT: I’ll give you, if I can get your address you can write to them and tell them you’ve interviewed Peter Thomas.
MC: I see, I see you also did a Cook’s Tour.
PT: Pardon?
MC: You also did a Cook’s Tour.
PT: Did a —?
MC: A Cook’s Tour of the Ruhr.
PT: Oh afterwards. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was —
MC: Yeah. You went all over.
PT: Yeah. That was, when we did that Cook’s Tour we took about a dozen blokes in the ground crew you know. And that was a dangerous operation you know. Somebody, I don’t know who it was but they were, it came through the grapevine that somebody pulled a ripcord or something and we lost an aircraft, you know. When you pull a ripcord and it puts a boat on the wing. And that, now when you’re flying you don’t want boats on your wing do you [laughs]
MC: So, tell me what —
PT: There were, there were some, these were Army blokes who should have just, they should have just been like that ‘til we got there and somebody pulled the rip. So they said. I wasn’t in that aircraft.
MC: Fortunately. Yeah. So you mentioned in your logbook review. What was, what was the review? What was that. The review. It’s got review Norway. Review Switzerland. Review Med and Nice. Southern France.
[pause]
CS: Dad, you need your reading glasses.
PT: A map of Norway there. We landed at Woodbridge.
MC: Oh yeah.
PT: That was a big airfield to land. A big aerodrome. That was an emergency landing there that we did that.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We did a lot of things that you forget about you know. I mean that one. The biggest when —
CS: Why did you —
PT: When you think about Johns and his flying when you landed on that grass runway at Penkridge that was superb. And that —
MC: He did a good job.
PT: You never bothered about landing after that. No.
MC: Yeah. No, I was just wondering what it meant by review.
CS: Dad. Dad, why did you an emergency landing?
MC: Yeah. Because you did some photographs. Took some photographs, didn’t you?
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: Well, we went to Switzerland. Switzerland and the Mediterranean at Nice. Southern France.
MC: Yeah. You said about your emergency landing. I’ll come back to what you were saying earlier because you said you made the emergency landing because you lost an engine, didn’t you? Was that it?
PT: That was in Norway.
MC: Yeah. When you were coming back from Norway.
PT: When we, when we got to Norway.
MC: That’s right. You did do that. Yeah.
PT: We were just about to start the photo and we lost this engine.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And I wanted to come back via John O’Groats.
MC: Yeah. Yeah, we did talk about that. Yeah.
CS: You talked about it.
MC: Yeah. I thought that was the one that —
PT: ‘Oh no,’ he said ‘Give us a course back to Cromer. We’ll go straight back over the —’ Of course, we’d three engines and when you’ve got three engines you should be doing something about it. Now that firm that lost their lives was the best crew. They came back from the northern, north coast of Germany who lost two engines and then they turned.
MC: Yeah.
PT: To land. You know you have to, you bank don’t you to —
MC: Yeah.
PT: They did that and lost another engine.
MC: Swept on his back.
PT: They went over and they were all killed.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And that chap was, that chap was the serge uniform that I was aware of when they were sat next to me. I don’t know his name but I’ve thought about him many a time. I’ve thought about him since I’ve been holed up here.
MC: You also mentioned in your logbook about different operation names like [Sinkum.]
PT: [Sinkum.] That were dropping bombs over. [Sinkum.]
That was getting rid of —
They were getting rid of —
MC: Yeah.
PT: These, what was the —
MC: Incendiaries. The bombs.
PT: Yes. When they bombed they dropped these —
MC: Mines. Oh no. They wouldn’t be the mines.
PT: They dropped these. Made fires.
MC: Incendiary bombs.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We dropped those.
MC: Dispose of them. Yeah.
PT: To get rid of them over —
MC: Over the North Sea. Yeah.
PT: Over the Welsh Coast. Over the water of the Welsh Coast.
MC: Give them to the Welsh.
PT: You what?
[recording paused.
MC: So, you enjoyed your time in the RAF did you?
PT: I did what?
MC: You enjoyed your time in the RAF.
PT: I enjoyed everything that I’ve ever done except being too close to Peter Selby [laughs] If you say the wrong thing to him and for goodness sake don’t point to him [yeah] I didn’t point. I thought about that.
MC: So when did you come. When did you —
PT: He’s my best friend and when I want any advice I go to him and usually he provides me with the right advice. Not enough money but advice.
MC: So when, so when did you finish?
PT: He’s been great hasn’t he Catherine?
MC: Yeah.
PT: He’s been great.
MC: When did you finish with the RAF? Let me see.
PT: 1946.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: No. I think. No, it might have been early ’47.
MC: ’46. No. This is crashing in a Mosquito. This is a new one.
PT: Yeah. I had a crash in a Mosquito.
MC: Did you? Where was that from? Where were you flying from on that?
PT: That was from [pause]
MC: Were you at Methwold then?
PT: Eh?
MC: Were you at Methwold then?
PT: Feltwell.
MC: Oh Feltwell.
PT: No. No. I wasn’t at Feltwell.
MC: Methwold.
PT: Can I have a look at the book? [pause] The navigator, and somebody said, ‘We’ve a, we’ve a flight test going on in a Mosquito. Have you somebody you could send who wants an air trip?’ and I said, ‘No. There’s nobody here. I’m the duty navigator and there’s nobody here.’ And he said, ‘Oh well, that don’t matter. Do you want to go?’ And I said, ‘Oh, yeah. I’ll have a go.’ So I went in this Mosquito and this chap had, he’d got a, he’d done well in over the Mediterranean. He had, he had an award for what he’d done in ground, the ground loop to an aircraft. Not a Mosquito. It was a two engine job. I’ve forgotten the name of it and you could, you could ground loop it like that and you got away with it. But he didn’t. He tried to do that when we were landing this Mosquito and it just shot into this field you know and cut, just cut my arm. I was next to him of course and he was up with the lid and out. Being first out. Of course, it didn’t fortunately set on fire and then the group captain came around and had a word with me and said, ‘Are you alright, laddie,’ sort of business. ‘Yes sir.’ [laughs]
MC: But nobody was really hurt.
PT: No. No. No.
MC: No.
PT: But he got a, he got a black a black mark on his logbook. He got —
MC: Was —
PT: I don’t know just what he got but he was —
MC: Was the aircraft a write off?
PT: Oh well. It was pretty well buggered [laughs] Well, the, it was, a Mosquito was essentially a plywood affair.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And in the accident it broke the fuselage here and it cut my arm here. Only a slight cut and of course he went around all the camp. [unclear] accompanying the navigator to the pilot he had, you know you’d have thought they’d have had my arm off you know. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah we were lucky then. And that taught me not to do any more reserve flights you know [laughs] So I didn’t, I don’t think I flew —
MC: So you were station navigation officer at that time or —
PT: Pardon?
MC: You were station navigation, navigating man.
PT: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: At that time.
PT: For a bit, yes. At that place.
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What rank were you then?
PT: Well, I was, it was two years from being a sergeant in Canada. That was in about the 19th of June. Nineteen, nineteen —
MC: It would be ‘46 would it?
PT: What time was, have I made a note to you when we were finishing in Canada? Nineteen.
MC: You have. Yeah, 1944 wasn’t it?
PT: Yeah. 1944. Yeah. That’s when we finished in Canada.
MC: Yeah. You were a sergeant then.
PT: I was sergeant when I got, not until I got back to —
MC: To the UK.
PT: No. That’s right.
MC: So what rank were you when you finished in the Air Force?
PT: When I finished? A warrant officer.
MC: Oh, you did make warrant officer.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I made a mistake. I should have, I should have had a uniform you know but being tight fisted I thought well I won’t be needing that when I go in Civvy Street but I wish I’d have got it now. There was a serge one, you know.
MC: Yeah.
PT: It was an officer type uniform.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: You know. Is this my tea?
CS: Yeah. I just topped it up. They might be able to supply him with one if he goes to this awards do, do you think. Mike?
[recording paused]
PT: Friendly with a girl you know.
Other: Can I interrupt for two seconds. I need to find out what he wants for his tea.
[recording paused]
MC: I’ve paused it. Right. It’s paused anyway.
CS: What do you want for tea, dad?
PT: What do I want for tea?
CS: That’s ok.
[recording paused]
MC: So you went back to work. Did you find it a bit calm, mundane after. After flying? So, this was —
PT: He was a nice bloke.
MC: So this was a souvenir from your 92 navigator’s course.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: I should be on that somewhere.
PS: LAC Thomas. You’re on the list there. LAC Thomas.
CS: Has he told you about going to New York?
PS: Yes.
MC: Yeah.
PT: No. I haven’t told. No.
CS: Oh, haven’t you talked about —
MC: Yeah.
PT: This chap that I met on the boat going to Canada he was, we were on the ship, on board ship and he finished up in the next bed to me and we got, we got quite, well we were friends. We only lost that friendship when he got a commission and the other fellow was from St Austell in Cornwall and unfortunately he was lost on a, on a [pause] on a Mosquito. When he came back instead of I did the same thing I volunteered. I made application to go on Mosquitoes rather than Lancasters because I thought it would be safer you see. Anyway, I didn’t. I think they were choosing officers and I was only a sergeant. So I missed it but this fella got it and he was lost on a —
MC: Yeah.
PT: He was lost on a trip on a Mosquito with a Canadian, a South African pilot who came over when we went for a tour with my Javelin. The first car I bought. We called at this cottage. We made enquiries at St Austell and the man said, ‘Oh, it’s my wife. On the roadside. It’s a cottage. Go and knock on the door and it’ll be you.’ And when we went into this room it was just like a mausoleum. There were all these things from, from him being in the Air Force and [pause] sad. His mother lost her only son.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: And it was sad.
MC: So, did you find it, going back to when you came out the Air Force was it difficult? Was it difficult to settle back into civilian life after four years of flying?
PT: Not for me. No.
MC: No. What did you think about the job that Bomber Command did?
PT: What Bomber Command did?
MC: Yeah. During the war.
PT: Well, like the guy who was running it. Harris. He was called Harris, wasn’t he?
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PT: Harris.
MC: Bomber Harris.
PT: He said if we just keep bombing them a bit longer they would [laughs] they’ll give up.
MC: Yeah.
PT: We lost a lot of lives that we could have avoided but you see they’d have been Bomber Command lives. So, I don’t know. I don’t know. I were glad I didn’t —
MC: What about Churchill?
PT: Pardon?
MC: How did, did you get much about what Churchill was doing and Churchill was —
PT: Not then. No.
MC: No. Yeah. Yeah.
PT: People didn’t. They didn’t tell people. You know, when that, when that aircraft crashed upside down you know we got, we didn’t get to know that. We just got to know that it was lost. Somebody else told us something else.
MC: Yeah. So, I mean, post-war Bomber Command wasn’t recognised probably for want of a better word as it should have been. How did you feel about that?
PT: I think it was, I think we were underestimated.
MC: Did you get the clasp? Did you get the Bomber Command clasp?
PT: No.
MC: You didn’t send for the clasp.
PT: No. I haven’t anything.
CS: Have you applied for that?
PT: Have I got a clasp?
PS: No. No. You didn’t get the clasp.
PT: No.
PS: You had —
CS: He’s made enquiries.
PS: Yeah. Nothing’s about —
CS: He hasn’t made —
[recording paused]
PT: He, if there are any clasps —
MC: If you what? Sorry, what was his name?
PT: Pardon?
MC: What was his name? Victor.
PT: Victor Tytherington.
MC: Oh right.
PT: Have you heard that name?
MC: No.
PT: No. Well, he, he was a navigator late on and he went and he trained in South Africa and he, there was various, there was a Manna clasp for dropping food over Holland. There was something for that. I haven’t anything for any of them.
PS: So we —
PT: Sorry.
PS: I could fill in the gap.
[recording paused]
PT: A tour of ops on Bomber Command. You know, like joining Methwold. If that job had have gone on, it finished of course but if it had gone on you’d have to do thirty ops before you’d finished your tour.
MC: A full tour was thirty. Yeah.
PT: Thirty. Thirty two. I don’t just know. I know there was a gunner in Todmorden and he did about eighty odd in a, as a gunner. Henry he were called. There were a few in Todmorden you know. Just navigators and stuff you know but we never bothered. Got to do. I had enough to do with this bakehouse that I got shuffled into with my dad.
MC: You were in Todmorden?
PT: Pardon?
MC: You lived in Todmorden.
PT: Todmorden.
MC: Yeah.
CS: [unclear]
PT: I was fifty years in Todmorden.
CS: Yeah. He was born in Nelson.
MC: I used to work up that way. How long were you a baker then?
PT: When I came out of the Air Force I had the, aircrew they had the chance of going to university. That was the first mistake I made.
CS: You could have gone.
PT: Me and my wife, no matter now said, ‘Well, you were that busy trying to get your end away.’ [laughs]
CS: But also you said you could have gone into BOAC.
PT: With her.
MC: Yeah. Did you consider BOAC?
PT: Pardon?
MC: Did you consider BOAC? British Overseas Air —
PT: When I was, when I was at Methwold, yes. I could have gone on BOA, BOAC. I was asked to go with having this Reserved Occupation in the Treasury Department I turned it down but I’m not sorry about that. I never felt sorry about that really.
CS: But you also thought, he said they wouldn’t need navigators. That’s why he didn’t want to go to BOAC.
PT: When I left, when I left the squadron and the outfit, when they brought the crew up I don’t know where Johns went but Fraser, the bomb aimer he joined another crew and, but I went. I went north and I did an instructor’s course and I was, when I was, when I was on that test flight I was supposed to be an instructor at this aerodrome. The aerodrome. There’s that many around there. There’s, it could be North Luffenham. There’s a lot of different ones. Cottesmore. Woolfox Lodge.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was tragic when they lost that one you know. That were just poor bloody maintenance. There was, there was a little amusing incident. I was in a, we were in a NAAFI queue and you know the ATS people? They deliver aircraft. Well, a person had. We were sort of in this queue for the NAAFI and over to our left a person not known at the time man or woman walked and had a helmet on and they were, the ATS people they used to deliver any sort of aircraft. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancasters, Halifaxes. Any one they could fly them. And on this particular occasion there was a queue like of the pilots you know, and they were sort of saying, ‘Great job that,’ you know. And suddenly this great job [laughs] pulled her helmet off and she were a woman and all the pilots that were in this queue you know and we said [laughs].
[recording paused]
PT: I think when I, when I got the, when I got back into the Grammar School stream through sheer luck really I think that’s when I enjoyed it. And my brother, younger brother he hated the Grammar School but I liked it and I liked this teacher, Mr Fowles and Miss Graham and all different people. I loved it. Yeah.
CS: His younger brother was six and a half years younger.
PT: I didn’t do particularly well because I was always going out with this girl or that girl. I had a girl from when I was at Grammar School [laughs] yeah.
CS: His, his —
MC: A bit of a lad were you?
CS: His young brother, his younger brother —
PT: A lad yeah.
CS: Was in the military police.
PT: Yeah.
CS: So he was there in Germany when they had the trials you know for the —
MC: Oh yeah, Nuremberg —
CS: Yeah. That’s right.
PT: I probably missed a lot out really.
CS: So what are you going to tell us about the ATA?
PT: Not a —
MC: Yes. It was ATA, wasn’t it? Yeah. Air Transport Auxiliary I think it was. Yeah. I mean they were good pilots some of them.
PT: Pardon?
MC: They were good pilots some of them.
PT: Oh yeah. They had to pilot anything. They would jump into a Spitfire or a Lancaster. They were good.
MC: Yeah. Well thanks very much for your interview, Peter.
PS: Shall I put that —
MC: Thank you very much.
PT: You know all these crew members? Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
CS: Gunner.
PT: Mid-upper gunner, rear gunner, wireless operator. If you want to, if you want to contact them for any information unfortunately they’ve all gone. They’re dead.
MC: You’re the last one.
PT: So you can’t. You can’t. You can’t say, ‘Is it right what Peter Thomas said?’ I’m the last one.
MC: I believe every word you said Peter.
PT: I mean they were, they had their moments, you know. I mean Peter’s told me things about dropping food over Holland when I never thought anything about it but they were, they lost aircraft there hadn’t they Peter?
PS: Yes. According to the book on Operation Manna.
MC: Yeah. They lost three.
PS: Three Lancasters on that.
PT: And I did —
PS: They collided I think.
CS: Collided.
PT: I did two. It did two to the Hague. To the Hague.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And, and we I don’t know just which. I tell you what we did one to Juvencourt.
MC: Oh yeah.
PT: And we brought, we stayed overnight and then we brought a lot of ex-prisoners. British boys who were prisoners. Prisoners of war.
MC: Yeah.
PT: That was, that’s tragic.
MC: Yeah. Juvencourt.
PT: When you hear of one being lost through stupid pulling at a rip cord and you know you can’t believe how daft people are.
MC: There were a few aircraft lost when the prisoners were brought back.
PT: Anyway, it didn’t affect me.
MC: No.
PT: We only did the one and one’s enough. Well, when we were at Juvencourt we went, we went drinking. These French [robbing] us you know with this cheap wine you know and I can’t, I can’t understand why I finished up on my own and I finished up in an American camp and this, this American said, ‘Oh sure. We’ve got a place for you boy.’ I went and I slept in this American camp and I wasn’t, I were on my own you know. I don’t know where any, we’d been drinking this wine. I didn’t know where the hell I was and this American said, ‘You follow me and I’ll finish you.’ That sort of talk you know. I thought that were wonderful. I really, I enjoyed the Grammar School. You see at the Grammar School in 1940 I’d been there then about four or five years and a lot of the boys they’d been called up and I lost a very good mentor of Harry Marsden who was lost on a ship in, opposite St Nazaire. He was, they battened him down and he was lost. Harry Marsden. He was my mentor. He was the cricket captain. The head of the school. The football captain. If you mentioned Harry Marsden he was in it, you know and we lost him.
MC: He was in everything.
PT: 1942 he was killed. He was killed on this ship. It was an, it was a British warship. I forget the name of the ship and it was outside St Nazaire and it got sunk and they battened it. They saved a lot and they didn’t get, they didn’t get Harry out. He was, he was battened down and that was sad you know when we were going on to another course you know. I mean when we got back from Canada we were at [pause] we were at Millom. Well, we were at Pannal Ash College and they sent us up to Millom and we went back flying on Avro Ansons.
MC: Yeah. So you brought plenty of —
PT: Chicken Rock and up to the islands and back, you know.
MC: You brought plenty of stuff back.
PT: Then we went to, then we were posted to —
MC: Husbands Bosworth.
PT: Husbands Bosworth. Husbands Bosworth, yeah. And that’s where we crewed up and we were on Lancasters.
MC: Yeah.
PT: No. Not Lancasters. Wellingtons. And that’s when we went and converted on to —
MC: Lancasters.
PT: Lancasters. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So when you came back from Canada you brought a load of stuff back with you from Canada. Cigarettes and stuff like that.
PT: When I came back from, when I was in Moncton they said, we had a, we had a kit bag. A Canadian. And a Canadian kit bag and they said, ‘If you want to get the maximum amount on board ship,’ he said, ‘You’ll have to buy a Canadian, not a Canadian one but a special one they had for erks like me. And it were a bag. It stood about that high and of course you didn’t need the others but I had that many cigarettes and stuff and bottles of cream for my mother that I put this this big kit bag and I had a pack. What did they call it? Like a —
MC: A rucksack.
PT: Knapsack. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PT: And I put this big one, I got somebody to lift it up and it lifted on like this and it were, it were about like this you know and when we got to the ship, when we got to the ship you know I was just hoping that we would have just gone up one step and on to the ship you know. And we went up this gantry you know. Up and up and up with this and when I was [laughs] when I got to where I was supposed to be I were absolutely knackered with this. With this big kit bag you know full of cigarettes and bottles of cream for my mother and stuff like that. Yeah. I enjoyed that. There were moments when you were a bit fed up you know and I mean I got walloped with a master who was, he also hit me but he’d been reported in a magazine that he’d hit a girl the same way. He just, for some, I didn’t know what I’d done wrong and he just whacked me across the face and Geoffrey my younger brother said, ‘He did the same to me.’ And then in this magazine, “Reunion,” this girl said she got whacked with him. He were a bully. He was a bully.
CS: Dad —
[recording paused]
MC: So I’ll just finish up by saying thank you for the interview anyway Peter. It’s much enjoyable. I’m, I thank you very much for doing the interview.
PT: Yeah.
MC: It’s been very good. Very entertaining.
PT: It was good, was it?
MC: Yeah.
PT: Yeah.
MC: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Peter Thomas
Creator
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Mike Connock
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-03-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AThomasPG180302
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Pending review
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01:33:14 audio recording
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Devon
England--Harrogate
England--London
England--Norfolk
England--Rutland
England--Yorkshire
Scotland
Canada
Ontario
Ontario--Toronto
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
North America--Niagara Falls
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Peter was born in Nelson, Lancashire and had two brothers. He was sixteen when he left school in 1940 and got a job until joining the Royal Air Force in 1943. He went to London Air Crew Reception Centre before going to Initial Training Wing at RAF Paignton. He then moved to Cambridge where he spent time on Tiger Moths. He was told he would be a navigator and from there he went to Liverpool to sail to Canada and start his training before going to Moncton receiving centre and then on to Toronto. On one occasion Peter flew over Niagara Falls. After training Peter got shipped back to Great Britain, arriving in Scotland before going to Pannal Ash College. He then moved to the operational training unit at RAF Husbands Bosworth where crews were formed. The crew went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Woolfox Lodge to train on Lancasters with 149 Squadron. They were then posted to RAF Methwold. When training on Wellingtons they had to make an emergency landing due to loss of an engine. He also recalled a trip in a Mosquito when the pilot crashed the aircraft but no one was injured. The crew was sometimes designated to take aerial photographs and was also involved with Operation Exodus and Operation Manna. Peter was demobbed as a warrant officer. After the war Peter and his family did a lot of camping. He said he had enjoyed everything he had done in life. Peter thought that Bomber Command did not received the recognition it deserves.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
149 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
forced landing
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Mosquito
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Methwold
RAF Paignton
RAF Woolfox Lodge
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1178/11749/AVanRielJF150825.2.mp3
cffc6c8e3da6c0812386bffac7a93acf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Van Riel, Coby
J F Van Riel
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Coby Van Riel (b. 1932), a memoir and her brothers war diary. She was a recipient of the Operation Manna food drops.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
VanRiel, JF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on the behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock. The interviewee is Mrs Coby Van Riel. The interview is taking place at her home at Bracebridge Heath on the 25th of August 2015. So, Coby if you can just perhaps tell me a bit about where, when and where you were born.
CVR: Yes. I was born in the Hague in Holland on the 6th of August 1932. And my brother was born two and a half years before. And my parents were not that young because my father had been married before and he lost his wife from tuberculosis and his little baby as well, died as well. And after that, he knew my mother because she was the sister of my father’s, sorry the sister, yeah of my father’s brother. I say difficult. Two families. Two brothers and two sisters. Yeah. So my mother knew him already and then they got to know each other better and they married at a later age. So, when I was born my mother was already forty-one.
MC: Oh goodness.
CVR: Yeah. So, I went to a school. It was the, for little toddlers first in a place called Scheveningen, near the Hague. A fishing harbour. And after that I went to the primary school. Also in that area. And then I, so we, we still lived close to Scheveningen. You know, on the edge of the Hague in the Brederodestraat and my mum, my mother had a chemist shop. Although in Holland they call it drogist. And that means it is a shop. There they can sell everything like in a chemist’s shop except drugs. No prescriptions from doctors and all that. And then I went to the Grammar School. Also, still in the area and I have to think about the —
MC: Did you enjoy the schooling? Can you remember much about your schooldays?
CVR: Yeah. I can remember more in detail but I don’t know if you want to know all about that. But anyway, so I have to think.
MC: What did your father do?
CVR: My father was, worked for a baker’s delivery shop. The co-op. Actually, the co-op it was called in Holland. And not Co-op but Volharding which I think was the same company and he used to deliver bread. And he did lots to earn a little bit more money to keep us going because when my mother had the chemist shop and towards the wartime in 1939 there was a critical time, you know. In ’39. And can you call it malaise or [pause] very difficult to keep going, you know. People used to go to other shops if they got something for a half a cent cheaper than in my mother’s shop.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: So it was very hard for them.
MC: Was it unusual for both parents to work in those days? Because, I mean, your father worked at a bakers but your mother ran the chemist shop.
CVR: Yeah. My father had a hard job and because he always helped his brother, my uncle, in the middle of the Hague — he had a café restaurant and he used to work there in the evening to help out, you know. And he wouldn’t come home before 1 o’clock sometimes. And sometimes he used to earn a little bit more money. He used to work in the night in the bakery shop and where the bread was baked and had to get it out of the ovens and all that. And he did a newspaper round. He had a very very hard life doing wallpaper for people, you know. And just to keep my brother and I going because the time was so expensive then. And then the war broke out.
MC: So the time before the war it was, it wasn’t easy.
CVR: No. It was a very hard time and at one point it was so bad and I can remember that that we couldn’t, we didn’t have any heating. We didn’t have enough money. Or my parents didn’t have enough money for the heating and my brother and I would sit at a table with our coats on in the wintertime and our hat on to keep warm and then sent to bed early. And then the baker around the corner took pity on us and I can remember he came with buckets full of pieces of coal to keep the stove going, you know. Yeah. That was really great. But yeah then the war broke out.
MC: So how old were you when the war broke out? So, you would be seven? Seven or eight.
CVR: Yes.
MC: Seven.
CVR: Yes. My birthday was in August and I would have been eight in August but the war broke out in May of course. You know. The 10th of May. And I remember that very vividly and that’s where my story starts you know.
MC: Ah yeah. But yeah, but go back.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Because obviously it was September ’39. It was in ’39 that Britain was at war.
CVR: Yes.
MC: But Holland.
CVR: Was on the 10th of May.
MC: 10th of May.
CVR: Yeah. In 1940.
MC: Can you remember, what, did things change? What was it like at the time? Can you remember?
CVR: In 1940. Yes. The start of it which I have written about was. That in the morning there was an enormous commotion and we heard the aeroplanes coming over of the Germans. And you know everybody ran outside to the harbour because the parachutists, the German parachutists came down and there was a lot of bombing going on as well. So I, as a little girl, you know, I thought I want to see that as well. My parents were too busy. And I quickly, I put something on and my apron and I forgot to put a skirt on. I just ran to [laughs] And I had, as a child I had no idea what that was. Staring at these aeroplanes and people dropping from the aeroplanes on parachutes. But the bombing was going on and I ran back home. And then that was really terrible because people who were injured they ran to the first chemist, drogist shop. Which was my mother’s. There was nothing else. And my mother started to help the injured. But in the end then badly injured people came in. She couldn’t do it any more. She didn’t know how to do it. So I don’t know what she did. Referred people to other places and I think she closed the door. She had to. But I can remember that. It was awful. Really awful.
MC: So when did you first come across any occupying troops?
CVR: Actually, that same day, you know. We were astonished to see the Germans in uniform coming. And they occupied the whole area there. Just us on the border. There was one street to the border of the Hague and Scheveningen and they occupied the whole area. Germans coming in and buying stuff in the shop. And we were just gobsmacked. But that lasted till the beginning 1943 I think. I wrote about it. When they wanted all the people living there, all of them, out. We just were told you have to leave within so many hours. So my mum had to get rid of all the stuff in the shop. I don’t know how she did it. She had some stuff there. I was still going to school from ’40 to ’43 in that area. I got an ausweis, you know. A permit to go to the school but in the meantime my aunt and uncle who had a café restaurant offered us a place because we were chased out. And they said, ‘Well, the only thing we can offer you is go into our cellars below the restaurant café.’ You know. So, my mum and my dad did that and I remember the last time I went to school in the occupied area there was a huge commotion and bombing going on and at some points. And I nearly was too, not far from the school and I was on my little scooter — you know when you move it, one foot on the step. And that was quite a distance from where we were living then, you know with my uncle and aunt. But then I got close and I got so frightened all of a sudden because there was all people were fleeing and going away. So I turned around and just went back. Luckily. I don’t know what would have been going on then after that.
MC: Do you know why they moved you out?
CVR: Because they, the Germans were afraid that from then on the English would come over with their armies and planes and whatever to occupy. Chase the Germans out of Holland and they had put already those things on the beach. I don’t know what you call them.
MC: Ah yes.
CVR: Yeah. And they were laying mines in the sea there. We were not allowed on the beach at all beforehand already. So we were just chased out. All of us who were living there. And we lived in the cellar. And my aunt and uncle said well don’t worry because it’s only maybe for a couple of months and the war will be over [laughs] In ’43? We lived there ‘til after the liberation.
MC: You lived there all that time.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did, I mean were you, were there any evidence of any rebellion, you know?
CVR: No. Not in that area. I know there was the, what do you call that?
MC: The Resistance.
CVR: The Resistance was there.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You know. I wrote about that as well. And I didn’t know that at some point there were certain newspapers going around and also —
MC: Illegal newspapers.
CVR: Yeah. Trouw and Parool I think it was called. And there were people around us who had to take messages, important messages to certain people. And there was one day, it was such a strange day I think that there was nobody who dared to go out with messages and they thought, ‘Hold on. The children. They won’t suspect children.’ And I was asked to take a very important message to a few streets further on. And they said, ‘We’ll put it in your shoe, under your sole, you don’t say anything. You go there. You do as if you go to see a friend. You have to go to that and that address and you deliver that message and don’t speak to anybody. Don’t. Do ignore the German soldiers if you meet them.’ And I did that, you know. So God knows what kind of message that was. Yeah. But we, we noticed quite a few things. Around the corner was a shop and there was, the owner was a Jew. A very nice gentleman. Really nice. And one day there were razzias. You know razzias? A razzia is when suddenly, unexpectedly Germans came along the houses and picked up people. At one point it was boys and men from the age of sixteen I think till whatever. Over forty. They were picked up and sent off.
MC: Forced labour.
CVR: Forced labour. So, one day we thought what’s happening around the corner? This lovely Jewish gentleman was got out of his house. I remember that. Seeing him. He was taken away by the Germans and gone. Never heard of him before.
MC: Because your brother at that time wasn’t old enough for forced labour was he?
CVR: My brother was two and a half years older. Then in ’43 —
MC: So, you would have been ten. No, he wouldn’t.
CVR: Then I must have been —
MC: He would have been about fourteen.
CVR: About ten to twelve. About twelve. Thirteen yeah. So. Yeah.
MC: So, he wasn’t able, he didn’t, he got away with forced labour because —
CVR: No. No.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: But at one point there was another razzia, you know and we were having a party in the café restaurant. We always had parties with the family and so all the old blinds were down of course. You had to have blinds and things. So, we were having this party and then suddenly, that was in the evening, there was a knock on the door of the restaurant and my uncle said, ‘Quick, shhh all down in the cellar. All of you.’ And so we were part of some members and I remember that, lying on the staircase listening what was going on. And later I heard from my uncle when it was safe to come out. He, he hid the son of my neighbour, a cousin of mine. Yeah, the two. Because my brother was not old enough. They got in the top of a big cupboard. On the shelf. There was space but just. They were sitting there. But my uncle had to give up because the dog was there, Sunny. Sunny the dog and he started to bark like anything in front of the cupboard. So we had, the boys had to come out and they were hidden somewhere else. I don’t know. In our cellar or whatever. So the door was closed and we heard my uncle talk to the German soldiers and later he said when it was okay to come out for us and they left. He said, ‘You can come out.’ We continued the party but silent. Silently. And we did but I heard that he had given the German soldiers loads of drinks he still had. Alcoholic drinks. Beer and God knows what so they were really cheerful and in the end they thought, ‘Oh, there is nothing going on here. We’ll leave.’ That was our luck.[laughs]
MC: That sounds very good, that does. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So, what about your parents still managed to do their jobs and their business? Run their business.
CVR: My, my mum was just housewife then.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: She had lost her shop so she looked after us, after us and helped in, as long as the café restaurant was going but in the end there was no food anymore but she helped there and polished the floors. And my father still delivered bread in that area, and it was with a little cart which they did you know at that time. But then in the Hunger Winter it became so bad. And before there was hardly any bread. We had coupons. I can show you later. You know, I still have coupons and, but there was nothing hardly left and then people started to plunder?, is that right, my father’s cart and it was really dangerous. He couldn’t prevent them and there was a lot of things going on. Fights and all that. So he stopped delivering bread and it was not worth anymore because we had only a small loaf for the whole week. I think for a person or whatever.
MC: So how did you survive? Money and things like that.
CVR: Well, money wise I don’t know how that worked. I think my father still earned something, you know.
MC: Oh.
CVR: And my uncle as well in the café. And they offered money for, oh a guilder for one potato. Nobody had that. But what was your question again about that? Oh yeah. The food. The food of course. So they had assistance from the IKB. I K B. That was an interkerkelijk — interchurch organization, a bureau who, and asked the children of us and that was December ’44. After ’45 then. Beginning ’45 to let the children come over to certain areas and then we were examined by doctors and divided into three groups — A, B and C. And I think A was the worse, B medium and C was the children who were still alright. And my brother and I were examined and we were put in the worst group — A. And then they said, ‘You can come,’ I think it was twice a week here, ‘And you will get, you have to get your little saucepan, not a big, a little saucepan and you will have some stew or porridge.’ And we were allowed to take it home but what, what’s happened at home because we were living with then, I think thirteen people together in my uncle’s house.
MC: So, you were still in the cellar at that point.
CVR: In the daytime we were in the cellar. In the daytime there was another uncle who died from starvation. And then neighbours came down and we were in the daytime with thirteen people, you know. But they do, when I and my brother came back with a little saucepan we all ate of it and these church people got to know that. They said, ‘Ah. No way they go home with their food. They have to eat in the place itself.’ Yeah. So, you know I’ve still a photo of it in a little booklet I got from Holland, “The Hunger Winter,” and there are photos in there. And also, my brother and I would go to the centres. There you could go and queue up and they would be coming, there were long queues and food would come from another place by boat from Delft to the Hague. And then brought to the, to these streets where you had to queue up. And you had your coupons and you would get from the big, we call them gamellen big metal [pause] yeah, containers where the food was in there. And they would ladle out, one it was either stew or soup but nothing much in it, in your saucepan and you would go home. But some days when there were raids and bombing going on the food wouldn’t turn up. You had to go home. The next day you could come and the food in the summer would go off but you still ate it, you know. So anyway, those things helped a little bit. And a kind butcher asked my mother if my brother and I could come over on a Saturday. He would try to do as much as possible to cook something from where he got it from, from bones. Cook a little bit of soup and veg and with other children we sat there but our stomachs were not used to it anymore. Because meanwhile we ate tulip bulbs, nettles, grass, fodder from the kettle. What was the [pause] sugar beet. That was all we tried to eat. So when we sat in the butcher’s shop around a table, all as small children and it’s not a very nice story but some children they couldn’t [pause] they couldn’t keep it in.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Later they started eating the same again, you know. It was horrible. Absolutely horrible. But we had fights at some points when the trailers came in with all these containers. The gamellen the metal containers. And you could go there as well, you know, to get something. But my brother and I and other people, young, all gangs. We called ourselves gangs climbed on the trailers because all the food had been given out. We climbed on it and we would lick, lick from these gamellen and I have a photo in that booklet as well. I haven’t got my own photos because we didn’t have cameras. So how they got hold of it in the booklet. And then we started to fight. You know. We suddenly divided into gangs and they started throwing stones from both sides. The children. And then I remember, I remember that so much and I felt horrible. I thought stones. Them throwing stones at us and we all try to lick the things. I thought forget it and I never went back anymore.
MC: No.
CVR: I hated it. I never did it anymore.
MC: Yeah, it was —
CVR: So that’s how it got around and in the end you know then in April when the RAF came over with the food and the Germans had not allowed them to do it. They asked permission. They said no way because they wanted to starve the whole west out. No. Nothing was allowed to come to us. Not even in Holland from the east where it was a bit better. They said, ‘No. You’ve got on strike with a Resistance group,’ you know. ‘You blocked our trains for ammunition and stuff for the war to come out.’ He said, ‘Right,’ they said, ‘Right. That’s your punishment. The whole west where the strike started you won’t have any food any more. You sort yourself out.’ And then in Holland the Resistance group or the head of the Resistance group got in contact with London. With Queen Wilhelmina and Churchill and they said, ‘You have to stop to try to liberate now. You have to feed us because already twenty thousand people in the west died from starvation and if you don’t do that there will be hundreds maybe two or three hundred thousand people dying very soon.’ And that helped. Wilhelmina and Churchill said, ‘Right. Liberation has to stop. First the people.’ That was our luck. You know. And then the RAF came over and I’ll never forget it. And they didn’t yet know because the Germans had forbidden them to come over with food. But it was towards the end of the war. So, they had to lose their face then you know. And the RAF still didn’t know whether they would be shot at.
MC: The early ones, yeah.
CVR: Nothing happened.
MC: Yeah. Eventually they, they had a truce.
CVR: Yeah. And then I stood outside. I ran outside and everybody ran outside and we looked up and we saw those aeroplanes coming. I just get goose pimples. In the distance we saw the aeroplanes coming over and drop food parcels in certain areas. And from there on we got food. And from the Swedish Red Cross. I’ll never forget that. We got Swedish bread. I first thought, as a child the bread came rolling down now. They had dropped huge bags of flour. They were brought to the bakeries and they baked the bread. And that was the first time I got a piece of bread from, again from Sweden. And the parcels, we had to get them from the RAF. It was divided, you know. Some burst on the, on the ground as well, bitterly but what was there that was divided. Everybody could come in. I don’t know how they did it. With coupons or something. And you got your parcel with a strong warning not to eat straight away all of it. Just little portions because our stomachs were not used to it. But it was high time. You know, I nearly lost my mother and father and that was told on the 21st of April to all the people in the marquee. The Dutch attaché introduced me. He had asked me a little bit. I’d never met him. He had it all in his computer and he introduced me to all the people in the marquee and he talked about it. And I suddenly felt, felt two tears down my face. I thought, oh no. I don’t want to do that.
MC: This was in April of this year.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. The Operation Manna commemorations.
CVR: I still have it on the television. You know. I kept it but it’s a pity I don’t have more solid things.
MC: Yeah. So, when the food was dropped were the Germans still around? Was the —
CVR: Yes. They were.
MC: Were they, did they get any of the food?
CVR: No. No. And that, that helped us over because it was in April and on the 5th of May for us that was the end of the war.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: And then, but it took a long time for people and there were still loads of people who died still, you know because they were too far down.
MC: To survive. Yeah.
CVR: So one, one uncle died. And I heard, in the cellar we were sleeping with all the beds you know. One after the other. In between my bed there was string for my father and mother. But I don’t know whether they knew I was there. I was sitting behind my bed. And they had called the doctor and then I got worried and I was listening what the doctor said. And the attaché told the people in the marquee as well. I heard the doctor say to my parents, ‘I am so sorry but you have to prepare for the end because you need food. There’s nothing I can do about it. I’m so sorry.’ I heard that. It was just, they just made it, my parents. Just. Yeah.
MC: It was very traumatic. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: So, but this, this —
MC: But they managed to survive with the drop. The food drop.
CVR: This whole event and I’m so grateful for it started in January. I’m with the U3A. You know the U3A?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And I’m in different clubs but once a month we have a meeting and in January there was a speaker. We always had a speaker and that was Paul Robinson. The vice air marshall. He would come then to talk about, did he say [pause] no not, that he would talk. Give a talk. I don’t know what the subject was but something about his career and all that. So I was sitting there and then he started and somebody helped him to show his video and all the pictures on the screen. And then he came suddenly to the Manna operation. He was started talking about Holland and I was sitting there, you know having thought never to be reminded of it any more. And there was this huge picture of the people standing in Holland. They’re looking at the Lancasters drop the food. And he was talking about that and I started to shake so much that somebody next to me put his hand on my arm, you know. To calm down. And we could always ask questions. And I put my hand up and there were more people but I kept on. I think I have to talk to him. I have to talk to him. And when it was my turn I said, ‘I only want to say I was there. I experienced the Manna operation and I have never had the opportunity to thank you,’ I said, although he was not in it but I meant the RAF at that time. I said, ‘I never had the opportunity to thank you for all you did. Dropped the food. Because if you wouldn’t have done that I might not have been here. I might not have had a family of course. Nothing.’ And then I started, blurted out some of my story. I thought later how could I do that? And people, it was so the silent in the hall. There were about eighty people of us. And Paul was standing there and I was so much in my story, and the person next to me, I think he was an RAF man as well he tried to calm down I was shaking so much. And then in my story I looked up to Paul and he had his hanky. He was crying. And then later the whole room, they came to us and loads of people were crying then. I thought, oh no. What have I done? What have I started? But to have been talking still about it all the time from that speech of Paul in January and from there on it, it happened. He said, ‘I want you in it on the 21st of April.’ And I told him I had my story, you know so we were in contact and also you know I went to Hemswell Court. I was invited on the 21st and the 25th is postponed now. The talk. But I don’t know if I can do that again even if they ask me. It’s all in the past now to talk about Manna operation.
MC: Going back slightly. Did you continue your schooling throughout that period and then after the war?
CVR: Yes. In the wartime I had to ausweis, you know.
MC: Yes. You said.
CVR: And then as soon as the liberation was there and the English people took over from the Germans and then I got a permit. An official permit to go to school because in that area nobody lived there yet. But my brother and I were permitted, the school was opened in the area, to go there. So that was quite, going every day to and from. And my brother and I were very inquisitive and after school time we went through all the area and there was no wood left. Not near the tram rails. Not in the houses because we did as well. We stole all the wood to burn in our little stoves we had, you know. We had a special stove in the wartime called Mayo and we burned stuff in there. But my brother and I went through all the streets and we went into the houses. There was nobody there. It was very spooky. And we discovered that the floors had been broken up and we said, ‘God, look at there.’ I can still remember the German soldiers slept under the floors. They had their beds still there and material lying around. We didn’t dare to touch anything but we noticed that in several places —
MC: Which area was that in?
CVR: That was Scheveningen in the Hague again. The Hague and close to it the fisher, the harbour.
MC: Oh, yeah. Where you’d moved out of.
CVR: Yeah. So, we were allowed, my brother and I via the permit to go to school.
MC: To school.
CVR: Yeah. Till people slowly went back, you know, to their own houses or other houses. But my parents were not allowed to go there yet. You know, it was all a very slow process. Because I was there I said, and I knew my mother wanted to go back but not to open a shop anymore. My brother and I didn’t want them to do that because of all the previous long opening times, you know. And I thought hold on. I go the first streets when I cross that border where we have the permit and there was a canal as well. So the first street I went in it is called Zwolestraat where we lived later. And I just knocked on the doors where people were already living. A couple here. A couple there. And when I knocked on the door can you imagine a young girl like that doing that? People opened the door and thought what’s that? They were still frightened. And I said, ‘Can you tell me the name of your landlord?’ [laughs] And they would just smack the door closed and I thought I won’t give up. And I tried again and I got used to putting my foot in between the door and the side so they couldn’t slam the door on me. And at last one couple, they — and then I explained all of that and they said, ‘Right. We will give you the name of the landlord.’ And I don’t know how I got hold of the keys. I got hold of keys of, in that road to look at houses. And my mother was allowed then to have to look at the houses. Our house, which we started to rent there was the floor open and stuff from the Germans underneath, you know. But we started to live there. And I did that.
MC: So there was still the houses were still owned by these people.
CVR: Landlords I suppose, you know but —
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And then slowly.
MC: I just wondered whether people might have just taken over the houses.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. But there was —
CVR: It must have been chaos. You know.
MC: Yes.
CVR: I don’t know all the ins and outs but slowly people came to live there till everything was ready again and the wood was in the houses. And that place around a corner where the V-1 was launched, you say.
MC: Launched. Yes.
CVR: Launched. Yeah.
MC: Yes.
CVR: That was really very damaged. I’d seen that and my brother wrote about it. About that launching there. Yeah.
MC: Did you see any of the launches?
CVR: No.
MC: Could you see them from where you were?
CVR: The damage. I’ve heard. When we lived in my uncle’s place ‘til the end of the war and we saw the V-1 from the distance.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: Shot off. And then on New Year’s Eve. One New Year’s Eve. That was the last New Year’s Eve I think, in ’44. We were all together all our family and we still managed to do a little bit together although there was no food. But we still had our own parties with whatever we had. And then suddenly we thought, oh no. Gosh. Another V-1 we saw going up to go to England I suppose. And then suddenly we all went, oh my God. It’s not going. It stops. It will turn. And it turned straight in front of our faces. And the whole family, they were standing there nailed to the floor because we didn’t know where it would land. And I was screaming my head off all the time. Nobody said to shut up because everybody was just, you know. I don’t know the word for it. They were stunned or whatever. And it went down a few streets behind us and a friend of mine, I still have contact with him, he lived there but luckily his house was not in [pause]
MC: Damaged.
CVR: In the damage but loads of other houses and all in the area the windows were, and the glass was everywhere but luckily we were then safe. Not other people unluckily. But quite a few people were killed in that V-1 that came down. So, I can remember that. Looking up. Screaming my head off and I was allowed to do that.
MC: So, when you, obviously the house that you moved into obviously needed rebuilding and —
CVR: Yeah.
MC: New floors.
CVR: Yeah, the wood.
MC: Did you get any assistance with that?
CVR: I think the landlord put all the wood, the wood back. Yeah. And inside my, my parents did everything.
MC: Wood must have been difficult to get hold of anyway.
CVR: Yeah. Yes, but I think it was not too bad and we lived there. And I lived there ‘til I got married. Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
MC: Going back to some of your times during the war. I mean you mentioned things like you were forbidden to listen to radios.
CVR: Oh yes.
MC: And the Germans used to check you. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. They were all hidden.
MC: Oh yeah.
CVR: All hidden. And as —
MC: You were told to hand them in but you hid them.
CVR: No. No. Hidden. And as soon as the programme with Churchill came on in the evening, 8 o’clock or so all the radios came out, you know and we were listening to it and the start of it, that special sound voom voom voom you know, news from Churchill. So, and then they were hidden again. But we had also to give all our jewellery, bicycles, you name it, we had to give that as well. But about the jewellery I have still have one little brooch left and money as well. Silver money. And that was with Queen Wilhelmina on it of course. And what people did they made jewellery out of the money. The silver money. And I still have one. I still have it.
MC: You talk, you talked about the German bunker. Passing the German bunker.
CVR: Oh God yeah. That was horrific that day. My mother, my brother and I walking home from church and that was just there where the Germans had their bunkers you call them?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. And also, that canal which was contaminated by the Germans. We picked up scabies from that, really bad. Anyway, when we came home from church and we walked past and of course my brother and I looked and then this German bloke got so angry with us and he lifted up his grenade and my mother said, ‘Walk. Walk. Look forward, in front of you. Look. Walk. Walk. Go home. Go home.’ And then my brother still looked around and he went straight into a lamppost and he broke his teeth [laughs] Yeah. But we were terrified because we thought really that bloke would throw the grenade. Luckily he didn’t.
MC: Very frightening.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. I mean you mentioned about a Jewish family down the road. Obviously there was a lot of Jews around and of course they wore the —
CVR: My little friend you are talking about. When we still lived in, in the occupied place before we had to leave. I don’t know if you mean that one. My best friend around the corner Greetje Stellamon.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Never forget her name. I can cry now because I don’t know what happened to her and then at that time my mum on the corner with her shop and Greetje just living a few houses further and the whole family had to wear the stars. And my mother was so terrified because if it was spotted that I had a Jewish friend God knows what would have happened to me and my family. So my mother, bless her she had to forbid to get on with Greetje Stellamon and I suppose she had a talk with the family. And I never never went along with her any more. We just ignored the whole Jewish family because my mother, and my father I suppose were terrified that something would happen to them. And now yet and I have contact with Thea Coleman, this Jewish woman who survived the war as well and I haven’t talked about it with her. Sometimes I phone her and she phones me. She was there on the 21st of April but her story is also fantastic. She wrote it in a different way because she had to hide and she was twelve years old as well. And she had to go from one place to the other. She had, oh she had not a very nice childhood. In a certain way worse than I but she survived and now the strange thing is, Mike when we have been talking to each other we lived always close together in the occupied area. Never to know each other. We know all the roads and after the wartime she moved into a road straight behind the road where I lived, Zwolsestraat. She lived in Harstenhoekstraat — one street further. She was always close to me in whatever area we lived. We never knew each other. And every time —
MC: You lived that close.
CVR: Every time we come to different solutions. I think her cousin went to the same school as I went. Thea, just in the last three years of the wartime he went to the same school as I went also. And it’s just amazing. Just amazing.
MC: When you lived with your, in the cellar with your family. How many of you were there in the cellar then? Because —
CVR: My mother and my father. Next to them I slept, is three. Then my brother, four. And my cousin, five. And then the maître d who served in the restaurant.
MC: That’s the domestic help you referred to.
CVR: Six. And sometimes if my family could still come over before it got too worse then there was another one. So, about the most was seven or eight but normally five to six. Yeah.
MC: So, did you, you didn’t have any windows in the cellar then?
CVR: Horrible. Because it was low on the ground. We had two windows. If I look up. In my memory there was one there, small window. And there was one there, small window. And then you could just see through the grid. There was a grid in the garden of course from my uncle and aunt’s garden. Just look through the grid up there. And then there was this open place, you know. Just a bricked, bricked hole there. But then the Germans flooded the west of the country. Also as a punishment. The water came in those areas as well. In those holes. And that flooded into the cellar where we lived and every morning we were up to our ankles in the water. And then we got this flea epidemic. I was an expert in catching fleas there. It was absolutely a horrible situation. Yeah.
MC: But you ate, you used to eat upstairs in the restaurant there.
CVR: Well not in the restaurant but in the dining-sitting room of.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You know we were with, with whom we lived there day in day out. We were sitting around a table with this uncle who died who was sitting next to me, you know. Yeah. It was really, really bad. But there was hardly anything you know. And if my aunt still could get hold of something. Especially from my uncle. He was the one who got extra food if he had. I don’t know but being a child if I noticed that there was something in the kitchen, just move that plant away, if there was something in the kitchen from my uncle. She managed one day I remember to make sort of pea soup and if I knew there was nobody around I quickly went to the kitchen and I just stole a few spoons of the soup. Or in the cellar, on the top she had some store or something from oats. Raw oats. And I would put my hand in it and ate a handful of oats. You know.
MC: Yeah. Amazing.
CVR: I stole from the Germans as well.
MC: Did you?
CVR: It’s in there. Because they had potato plants in, in the parks you know and there was, there were always soldiers on guard with their guns and at one point my friends and I decided to steal potatoes, you know. Not telling our parents we went there and one of our group would stand guard for us to warn us if the German guard would come along. So we just pulled out potatoes, you know and we had a plastic or not plastic bag. I don’t know if plastic bags were there then. But in a bag and then one, at one point our guard shouted, ‘Run. Run. Run.’ You know. They never said anything [unclear] we knew we had to run. So we just ran home and I gave my parents these few potatoes. And I was told off by my father. He said, ‘Where did you get them from?’ And I would say, ‘I stole them from the park.’ And he said, ‘You must never steal.’ I remember him saying that honestly or honestly, profoundly. You must never steal. He said, ‘Give the potatoes and I’ll bring them back.’ I thought oh great. But I never saw the potatoes any more and I think we had eaten them that night [laughs] Yeah.
MC: Tell me about your story you told about David and Goliath. The two stoves.
CVR: Oh the two stoves. Yeah. David and Goliath because I told you that David we called the Mayo, Thea in our story knows this as well and she mentioned it at Hemswell Court when the BBC took film there. But that was very dangerous because they had to get that stove going. The David. The Mayo and put in all the stolen pieces of wood all the time to keep warm. And they warmed at the same time and the pan with water because we needed some times hot water and then it happened that my, the poor aunt she pulled the pan with the hot water over her leg. That was absolutely horrendous you know but that’s how we lived every day, you know.
MC: Because that’s where the wood came from. From the houses.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: To fuel the stoves.
CVR: Yeah. Oh people stole everything. Wood. Everywhere around. And then the Goliath. That was in the restaurant still. A huge stove. But that was not used anymore in the end. There was nothing. The restaurant was closed. There was nothing any more.
MC: You talked about the bicycle. Riding to the farms.
CVR: Oh yeah.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. And then often then they came back from the farmers and we had to give our linen, you know. In exchange for food.
MC: Swap it. Exchange it for food.
CVR: And then sometimes people went back on their bicycles. Sometimes without tyres, you know. Just the wheels.
MC: Why did they not have tyres?
CVR: Because if the tyres were finished you couldn’t get any new ones and then, then they came suddenly to a post where the German guards were they had to give everything. The bicycle, all the food stuffs, the lot. They had gone to the farmers for nothing that day.
MC: So the Germans could take the bikes off them.
CVR: Yeah. And the food.
MC: And the food.
CVR: So one day I went with my brother but we were not successful that day, you know. And then my parents were so near to starving as well I thought you know, I go. I knew somebody around the corner and I think he had a chicken farm. Yeah. So I went there and I knocked on these big doors and the doors opened and I put my foot in between there as well so I had learned that already from that time and I told him if, ‘My parents are very ill. They need some food otherwise they’ll die. Can I have a chicken that they can cook it and make some soup of it?’ And he said, ‘No. No.’ That was one of the people who didn’t cooperate. And I said, ‘Oh my father, he always delivers bread here. He has loads of bread,’ it was not true anymore, and I said, ‘I will get you a nice loaf of bread.’ But no. I had to get my foot out of the way. I didn’t get it.
MC: What about clothes? How did you cope with clothes?
CVR: Clothes. You couldn’t get clothes at all any more. And my mum, somehow she got hold of a vest and pants for me. Horrible. Horrible colour. Horrible green. Funny colour. And all straight. No shape in it at all. And God knows how much she paid for it but they were absolutely horrible. So, oh yeah, and what we did as well, people, if the men’s trousers were worn then the women would turn the material. All unravelled and turn the material and from the good pieces they made skirts for themselves or for the children. Yeah. They did that as well. No. There was nothing. I’ll show you the coupons as well, I have.
MC: You’ve got some coupons.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah. See then I go into it. I can talk for hours and my children would say, ‘Mum. Stop your non-stop talking.’ [laughs]
MC: You keep talking.
CVR: Yeah. But I still think again twelve years old. How, how could I remember all that? Now I have to, difficulty remembering other things, you know. The short term memory. It’s still okay but this is better in my memory than anything else. It must have been, made a huge impact.
MC: When you talked about you going to the farm and getting some chicken and that you said that you talked about getting a big, going to the Germans with a big bang.
CVR: Oh. Oh my gosh. If I remember that day. I thought I have to get some food, you know all that time that my parents were ill and my uncle. And there was, on the, on the main street I used to go on there to school if I still could go there in the city and then I thought I’ll go there. I never told my parents anything what I was up to. And I got the largest pan out of the cupboard and I went to this place which used to be called [unclear] And that was a place where they had [pause] it was a milk factory. Yeah. They got the milk from the farmers, you know, from the cows and there they processed the milk. But the Germans had occupied that factory and chucked out all the Dutch people. They, that was for them. Nobody could get anything. And I knew that they were cooking food as well there and I thought I would go there. So there was this German on guard there, you know, with his gun and I said in Dutch then, you know, ‘Could I have some food for my family because they are really very bad at the moment?’ And he got so cross with me and I didn’t go away. I said, ‘Please. Please. Just a little bit.’ And he got so cross with me. Couldn’t get rid of me. And he said something in German which funnily enough I’d picked up a little bit of German and he started shouting at me. I had to go away. And it was the fault of Queen Wilhelmina, ‘That schweinhund,’ he went. You know, you know what schweinhund means. ‘That schweinhund leaving you all to yourselves and just fleeing abroad.’ He said it was her fault and he wouldn’t give me any food and if I would not go away quickly he would just shoot me. And he went like this with his gun. And I’m frightened. I ran with my little legs as quickly as I could. I ran away and I came home. And then I got told off. My parents were mortified that I had done that. It was [unclear] never never ever to do that again.
MC: You got into a bit of trouble with your parents occasionally didn’t you?
CVR: Yeah. And with my brother as long as we could go to school along this big long road we passed a little shop which used to be an ice cream parlour before the war I think. And he tried to do something still for everybody you know. We had to pay a little bit of money. I think a kwartje they called it. Twenty five cents and then I got that, you know from my parents. And maybe later they did it without being paid. They were very good people and they gave us sort of what they called [unclear] and that was a very fluffy, a fluffy bit of, not ice cream but very fluffy stuff. Like foamy stuff and it was either white or pink and we ate that and that filled up our stomachs like anything, you know. And we never knew what it was. And later from my friend in Holland and in the booklet I got to know now that was made of sugar beets. Of the, the moisture, the sap that came from it they used to make that sort of foam in a certain way how they made ice cream in the machines.
MC: A bit like candy floss?
CVR: Yeah. Very light stuff.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And that filled our stomachs up for an hour or so.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. That was what we did. Oh gosh and I’m sure, the rumours then but I’m sure we ate some cat and dog as well in the end. Yeah. What do you do?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You eat rabbits.
MC: That’s right. Yeah.
CVR: And in that situation why not cat and dogs?
MC: You talked about getting bags of grain. When you’d got to sort out the mouse droppings.
CVR: Oh my gosh yeah. You had to sort all these grains out. It was [pause] we sat in the restaurant then. No people came any more. I remember sitting at a table and sort out all this grain and get all the droppings out, you know. And I used to make myself and my cousin Stijnie, a girl, she was a bit older than I, about four years older and we tried to make a sort of cake out of the sugar beet if we could get hold of it. Just put sort of soya sort of milk to get it smaller, or whatever we did. A sort of mincemeat machine, yeah, and tried to make a nice cake of it and make some thick, some [pectin?] in it. And once my uncle came out from the café restaurant to us because he still had, when there was still something to drink, my cousin and I always had to do all the washing up and before also when the food was still there and we got plates and plates for trays and trays full of stuff to wash up, you know. And as soon as that was finished he came with another tray. And then once he came at the back and he settled to how sort of, ‘What the hell are you going to do there?’ And we told him we were trying to make a cake of sugar beets. And oh he was livid. Livid. ‘Who would eat this rubbish you feed to the cattle,’ you know. ‘Stop it.’ But we didn’t stop. We wanted to eat something. Yeah. Oh dear. Crikey. I have so much information now. It’s amazing that I got straight into it. This one I have to have translated because it’s so interesting. I tried to find it because it tells me so much of, about the gamellans. If you have time.
[Pause. Shuffling paper]
CVR: Here we are, coming down. The parachutes. It’s a huge thing, you see.
MC: Yeah. After the war, yeah —
CVR: Yeah.
MC: And you talked about bread from Sweden arriving.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah. The flour came, you know first, in the centres.
MC: And you did your own baking.
CVR: Hmmn?
MC: You did used to —
CVR: No. it was baked for us in the bakeries.
MC: Right.
CVR: Yeah. But he had such a, every day he wrote what happened. How many —
MC: That was your brother.
CVR: What is luchtalarm again. When the alarm goes off again. That there is a bombing.
MC: A siren.
CVR: Siren. Yeah. Six sirens. Nine V-1s came over. Every day he said the same. Three V-1s. The next day twelve sirens. What we ate these days. Soup. Soup again. Or something else you know. It’s amazing what he wrote down for every day that happened. Half a litre of soup. Eight V-1s.[pause] Amazing. Amazing. His story is so different from mine but so interesting.
MC: So after, at the time of the liberation, obviously the liberating army came through.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: You saw the tanks.
CVR: Yeah. Yes. That was the day I was so astonished, you know. We all went to look when the tanks came in with the soldiers. And loads of then older teenagers, I didn’t do it, I was too young but all the older girls, you know they were mad about all these soldiers. Climbing up and kissing them and throwing flowers everywhere and, you know. And then after that all the girls who had been girlfriends of the Germans soldiers they had come along you know, run the gauntlet and before that all their hair was shorn off. They had to do that. I can remember that. I thought, yeah. You know, it was a sort of revenge. What, what use is it? But —
MC: But that was their only punishment.
CVR: Yeah. You can imagine how people reacted after that. But they left them alone. Nobody was attacked. Nothing.
MC: You talked about the canal.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Being a tank wall.
CVR: Oh yeah.
MC: It was contaminated.
CVR: That was contaminated. And so all we children we jumped in it. We wanted to swim and, you know we felt free to do what we wanted to do. So all these children they got a skin [pause]
MC: Scabies.
CVR: Scabies yeah. Skin trouble. Scabies. So from the, the yeah sort of NHS [unclear] you know a service to look after people if they become ill and all that. And send doctors out to check and examine. And so all the children, including my brother and I were diagnosed with scabies. And my parents were given a sort of soap. Maybe I wrote about it. I can’t come up with it now. And in the evening they had to wash us totally and then put all this certain soap, I think there was sulphur in it. Yeah. A sort of sulphur soap. They had to cover us from top to bottom in this sulphur soap and then sleep in it the whole night. And then the next morning my parents were advised to make a bath ready. We didn’t have a bath. We had a sink top you know, with hot water. You had to sit in it. And then scrub us with a hard brush but my mum couldn’t do that, you know. So she washed us properly and maybe rubbed us very hard. And then I think that would do the trick and I think it did the trick but so many children had that and they were told all the stuff we had slept in that night we had to bring to a certain centre and it would be burned in an incinerator. I don’t know what my mother did but maybe she washed herself. I don’t know what she did.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: So that was at the end. After the war. At the end of the war was it?
CVR: Yeah.
MC: That was the end of the war.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: So did things get back to normal fairly quickly or —?
CVR: No. Not quickly. It took quite some time. A few months to get everything back to a sort of normality because there was still not food enough. That had to come in slowly, you know. It took a long time. Like you hear now in all the other countries where things happen. It takes time as well
MC: It does take time. Yeah.
CVR: People complain sometimes. Why not do things directly. It can’t be done. It has to be organized.
MC: So the [pause] your parents, your father carried on working but your mother didn’t. Where did you finish your schooling then?
CVR: Let me think. In 1948, I still know the name of the Grammar School where I went to then [Paulussbaustraat?] My brother and I went. And I finished my schooling in 1948. And, yeah. What did I want to do then? I was then sixteen. Nearly seventeen. And I wanted to go into nursing but nobody accepted me. I had to be eighteen. So I thought what shall I do then? And I thought hold on they take on younger people in centres where there is tuberculosis. In sanatoria. So I went there without telling. You know, I just went there. My parents. And went there and could I become a nurse there. I don’t know what the outcome was there then but then I came home. I told that I had did that. I had done that and my father went livid. I’d forgotten all about his first marriage and losing his wife and child from tuberculosis. And I can still remember him sitting opposite me and my mum was always very sweet and calm and all that. She didn’t know what to do. To say. And my father went, he was a good man but if he would get angry, and the words he said then sometimes, oh. But he said, ‘If you go ahead with that,’ I can still remember him sitting there, ‘If you go ahead with that I’ll break both your legs.’ He said that to me. And, and then I thought oh my gosh, you know. So the next day I thought I want to keep my legs so never went ahead with it.[laughs] And then, you know I thought, yeah what do I do then and then I decided to go to a domestic science school. And that was a course for two years but because there were only four students who wanted to do this special domestic science course that would last two years and they said we can take you on only for one year because we can’t keep you on for the second year. Only four. So you have to do this course, that was said to the four of us, in one year. It will be hard work but you will have to do it. Otherwise forget it. So we did it. You know. We did it in one year and then my father offered to me, he said, ‘Why don’t you stay on or apply for a course to be a teacher in cookery.’ Cooking. And I said, ‘No. I don’t want to do that.’ I thought I had to stay on in that school for a start. And the director Der Theresa, the woman, I didn’t like her at all. She was always caked in makeup and she was never very friendly. The teachers were fine and I thought no I don’t want to be in her school any more so I said no. And then later I thought how would he have paid for it? My father. I had no idea how he would have done that. Anyway, I said, ‘No. I don’t want to do that.’ And then I started applying for jobs. Loads of jobs. I wanted to be a midwife. I wanted to be a stewardess. I wanted to be a social carer. I wanted to be going on in dancing. I loved dancing and still, until two years ago I still did, tried to do the can-can. On my eightieth birthday I did a can-can. And I invited loads of people from church and U3A and they still talk about it. I do the swimming. I did a can-can. Anyway, I wanted to do that in performances. You know, theatre stuff. Nothing worked. I applied for a job for checking washing machines. Go in to that what was the best washing machine and things. The most silly things I did. Never got going. And then in the end I thought hold on I can apply with a steel company in the Hague. [Roopervandervoort?] a very famous steel company. And I have to earn money. My parents said, ‘You have to start somewhere. You have to earn money.’ Meanwhile I had finished my grammar school you know and I had got my diplomas and all that and my diploma from the Domestic Science School and then so I started to work for the steel company. And that was okay. I got my salary you know and worked from nine to five. And I didn’t like working from nine to five and I thought what shall I do now and the director of the steel company suddenly said, ‘Would you like to come with me for a week to Rotterdam,’ to the same company to set up a sort of system I did already in the Hague. And I said, ‘Okay fine.’ So he picked me up and he had a beautiful Oldsmobile. Went to Rotterdam and did that but in that time I had a boyfriend. He dumped me and I was crying every morning and this director said, ‘What’s wrong with you?’ I told him. I was okay in the daytime but oh that affected me so much. Anyway, I thought I’m fed up with this nine to five job. I want to do something else. You know what I did then? I applied to work for the police headquarters in the Hague. And I was accepted.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: As a telephonist telexist but that involved working different shifts which I loved. Night or day. Or Sundays. Easter. Christmas. I didn’t care. That was what I liked. On call sometimes. So I worked there till I met my husband. And I still worked on and we married and I still worked on but then I was expecting a baby and I had a miscarriage and then you know then I had to give up.
MC: So when were you married?
CVR: In 1954 I was married. In November. 20th of November ‘54. Yeah. And then after this miscarriage I was expecting soon again and I got with twins.
MC: Bless you.
CVR: Amazing. Yeah. So but I never went back to work then anymore. It was impossible. Impossible. Yeah.
MC: So when did you come to the UK then?
CVR: In 1966 when my husband worked for Esso. First for [unclear] and then for Esso. And then he was asked by an American boss of, in America then of Esso or that was not ExxonMobil yet I think. Anyway, he came over and he had talks with my husband and my husband [pause] yeah yeah he said would, would he be interested in a job in England? In London. To set up an office there for Esso. Although there was already Esso in I think it was Mund Street, someplace. Anyway, so we thought it over and we had my four small children and I was worried stiff about my children to move to England. And my husband said as well you know if he come to do it it will be very challenging and an adventure. He said, ‘If I say no I will be ever stuck after my bureau in the Hague. I will be never asked again for something.’ And anyway this, this person, the American, he was called Tom Kennedy and he came over again. And I had had talks with my English teacher. That year before we decided to move I went to conversation lessons in English. I loved it. And I said to her, I said, ‘We are offered this job but I’m scared stiff about my children.’ She said, ‘What? Don’t worry about your children. They will be fine. They will pick it up very soon.’ And she said, ‘And in your case don’t worry.’ Because at the Grammar School I had to learn, apart from Dutch, French, German and English. So I had three basic languages. She said, ‘Don’t. Don’t worry,’ you know. ‘Go to a little school there and you will be fine. Don’t worry.’ So then in the end when Tom came over and he invited us to go to Rotterdam on this sort of tower that went around like in London as well. We had a dinner and talks and he took us out on a canal tour with the children as well. And then in the end without children he invited us again and he said, ‘Have you come to a decision?’ And he said, ‘You know what? I think you are nearly there. I’ll leave you on your own here. Just have a coffee after your dinner. I’ll go away. I’ll come back and see what you have decided in the end because I have to know now.’ And he came back and my husband and I talked about it for five minutes and we said, ‘We’ll do it. We’ll do it.’ So we told him and he said fine. And from then on you know we moved to England in ‘66 with our four small children. And we decided on a house in Caterham in Surrey. But the people still lived there so they had to move out. They wanted to sell the house. And for the time being we were in Selsdon Park Hotel. Do you know Selsdon Park Hotel?
MC: No.
CVR: No. In Surrey. Anyway, a lovely hotel and we, we lived there a couple of weeks with the children until we knew we could settle in a house. And so it went. And we came without a penny because you know we didn’t have a lot of money when we lived in Holland. And then four children. And, and so we had to have a loan. A sort of mortgage. A bridging loan it was called. Yeah. And so we came without a penny and then we decided to get rid of this bridging loan and the mortgage as soon as he could and of course because he got this job in England he was paid well so we paid lots and lots off every month. What we could. And in eleven years we had done it. Yeah. We did it.
MC: Very good.
CVR: Really great. Yeah.
MC: So you’ve been in England ever since.
CVR: Yeah. On the day we, we moved that was on the Cup Final day. The last day of July ’66 was it?
MC: I think it was. Yes.
CVR: In July. And my taxi driver who picked us up from the airport and took us to the Selsdon Park Hotel he had a face like that. And he said, ‘You know what. Because I have to take you to the Selsdon Park Hotel I’ve missed the whole Cup Final now,’ [laughs] I’ve never forgotten that. Yeah.
MC: Well that’s a lovely story that Coby. It’s a lovely story.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And I thank you very much.
CVR: Yeah. And again I hope I didn’t keep you up too long.
MC: No. no. no. as long as you can talk we can record.
CVR: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Coby Van Riel
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AVanRielJF150825
Format
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01:20:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Netherlands
Sweden
Netherlands--Hague
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1943
1944
1945
1948
Description
An account of the resource
Coby Van Riel was a child of about six when the Germans invaded Holland. She lived in a fishing port area of The Hague where her father had a number of jobs to make ends meet in the difficult days before the war and her mother ran a chemist shop. She witnessed the German parachutists landing and the bombing of the area and saw the injuries to the civilian population some of whom went to her mother’s shop for help. When the Germans took over the area the family were forced to move out of their house and give up the shop and they went to live in the cellar of her uncle’s café. She recalls the round-up of civilians sent to forced labour and of the local Jewish population sent to Concentration Camps. She talks about what it was like for civilians to live in the occupation and recalls the time she was asked to carry a secret message in the sole of her shoe. She talks of the Hunger Winter when people began to starve. She lost her uncle to starvation and her parents were very close to death when help finally arrived. She witnessed Operation Manna and expresses her gratitude for the efforts of the RAF. She also recalls seeing V-1 rockets and seeing the damage caused by them.
anti-Semitism
bombing
childhood in wartime
forced labour
Holocaust
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Resistance
round-up
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1208/11781/AWrightR180326.1.mp3
e34b515152df73d98718be617455a7e2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wright, Robin
R Wright
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Robin Wright (b. 1937 Royal Air Force). He grew up in Norwich and remembers being bombed.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wright, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Robin Wright. The interview is taking place at Mr Wright’s home in Branston, Lincoln on Monday the 12th of March 2018. Ok, Robin. Thank you very much for doing this interview. We’ll start a bit about the beginning so just tell me a bit about where and, when and where you were born.
RW: I was born in Norwich on the 16th of June 1937 in the nursing home on Drayton Road, Norwich and later moved to the Lakenham Estate on the south side of Norwich which was built in ’35. And I moved in when I was about a year old. Ok.
MC: Yeah.
RW: Now, we had an Anderson shelter at the top of the garden about seventy yards from the back door and I bloody hated it because they used to you wake up about nine o’clock at night. You’d been asleep you thought a long while. The Germans started to bomb so we had to get out of bed, a warm bed and go down in the cold with an earthen floor. No electricity. An old paraffin heater that used to send off dirty smoke and fumes. It was awful. So anyway that was, my father bought this shed, the shelter, an Anderson shelter at the end of the war off the city council at Norwich for seven and six pence and we just, we took it down and put it back on a cement plinth at the top of the garden and that was his garden shed. So that was that, then when we went to school I went to Cavell Road School in Norwich as I say right on the very edge of the city and we had a shelter built in to the playing ground and we used to get, when the bombers come over we used to go down there and we used to sing, we used to sing, “Ten green bottles hanging on the wall.” So that muffled the sound of the bombs [laughs] And I was there several years. The railway station, the main Liverpool Street to Norwich line ran right alongside the school so at 12 o’clock you used to see the East Anglian come in to Norwich. And there was a live train that went from the spur off the mainline to the back of our garden and it went into Victoria Station which is now a Sainsbury supermarket. But my mum was shaking a duster out the back bedroom window one day and along come a Jerry in a fighter and she said, ‘I saw him plain as hell sitting in the cockpit,’ but he was looking to bomb up steam trains. That was, that was what he was looking for.
MC: What did your father do?
RW: My father was in the RAF.
MC: Oh. Was he?
RW: And he was at, which is now Manchester Airport and he was in spares. And one time we did go up and stay because he was on a very private estate and they had a car which they could use. A black Morris. And they had a pond. And my mum and me went up there and stayed for a week as I remember it. And as I say my father moved from there to Thetford Forest. And they used to store the engines that came, the Merlin engines that came from Derby and Nottingham and they’d stack them there because all the bases were in the Norfolk Suffolk area and then when they come and pick up a new engine. And that was why there was three blokes and an officer. And one night they’re walking into Thetford to have a pint and the jeep, American jeep pulled up and said, ‘Do you want a lift lads?’ ‘Yes please.’ He said, ‘Where’s your transport?’ He said, ‘Oh we aint go no transport.’ But they were eating fortunately with the Americans so they were on fresh orange juice. Anyway, he said to them, ‘I know who are you are,’ he said. I’ll get a jeep for you tomorrow.’ So the next morning a brand new jeep arrives and they used to go just down to the, for the food. And once a week to Thetford for a drink. And about three months later an American officer come around. He said, ‘You’ve got jeep registration — ’ so and so. ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘It’s got to have a new engine.’ He said, ‘Well, we only go down the road.’ ‘Don’t matter,’ he said. ‘Got to have a new engine.’ That was the Americans for you. But as a young boy in school we had an American sergeant from the Air Force come in to school and we had to sit in the, on the floor in the school hall and he said, ‘Our rations for boiled sweets has come and we want to give it to the children. English children.’ So we were each given six sweets each. Boiled sweets. We were allowed to suck one and the rest were to take home with you. But I never gave mine, any of mine away. Anyway, that was that. Towards, well it was the end of the war Mr Moore of course was the only teacher. He was the headmaster. The rest of the teachers were old ladies. Very old ladies to me. And they just taught us the basics you see because all the teachers were in the forces. And one day he came with a blackboard and he’d got the Union Jack on it. Now, I’d only ever seen white chalk. I’d never seen red or blue chalk. And he says to us, ‘If this is outside tomorrow you’ve got three days off because it is the end of the Second World War.’ Well, I took no notice did I? Until the next morning. Goes around the front of the school and there’s a blackboard. So I turns tail and goes home. Well, my sister was born in ’44 so just about a year, nearly a year old in May. And I said to me mum, I said, ‘The war is finished.’ ‘Yes,’ she said, ‘Your dad’ll be home soon.’ And that was it. We didn’t have any parties. We were pretty hard up. We used to have a minimum amount of coal to put in the fireplace which heated the water and cooked on it and always had a kettle there because that would be boiling for tea and that. But we lived pretty, pretty basic life. And if I wanted anything to eat my mum would cut me a doorstep. That’s a large slice of bread. About three normal pieces with dripping. Pork dripping. And if you could get hold of the bottom of it which was the brown stuff where the blood was on it.
MC: Yeah.
RW: It was beautiful. That was a real good thing.
MC: I remember it well.
RW: But that was the end of that. We did have a bomber crash, because as I said beyond this top of the garden railway line there was nothing but fields and a bomber just missed the chimney stack and it crashed about half a mile away. And I never did find out who was in it but it crashed and all the ammo exploded and they were all killed. I only know this because my sister and this little girl were born at the same time and the father was an insurance agent but he was in charge of the Fire Brigade in Hall Road just above us and he’d been called out. And then I heard the next day that, you know they were all dead and the ammo had all gone up. And that was just between Hall Road and Ipswich Road on the Inner Ring road.
MC: You don’t remember what, you don’t know what type of aircraft it was?
RW: No. I don’t know if it was a bomber or I don’t know if it was an English bomber or an American bomber because it would most likely be —
MC: Lots of Americans there weren’t there?
RW: Yeah. But you see the Americans didn’t fly during the night.
MC: No. They didn’t.
RW: They didn’t.
MC: That’s true.
RW: They flew mostly during the day the Americans. The Eighth Air Force and Ninth Air Force.
MC: Yeah.
RW: Because they were based around Norwich. And the other was a Lancaster. More than likely been a Lancaster at that time. And so that was that one. Now then. What else? Oh. I was going to tell you about the school dentist. At the end of the war we all needed teeth treatment, you see. And they, they brought the dentist in to the school and set up with a nurse. And they used to come around to the classrooms and call your name out. Well, it was horrible because it was a foot drill. They didn’t have electric. It was foot drill. Drill the fillings in. And this nurse come around one day and I said to her, I said, ‘Have I finished the treatment now?’ ‘Yes,’ she said. And bugger me an hour later she came around and called my name out. I weren’t very happy about that I’ll tell you. What I can tell you about, at the end of the war I personally was undernourished and was sent to a special school in Colman Road, near Eaton Park on Eastern Counties number 2 bus which took about a dozen of us from our area to the school. And you got there for 9 o’clock and you were given porridge straight away. And after about three lessons at midday you had a meal. A cooked meal. And then this must have been in the summertime of ’46 because we were put outside on camping beds with blankets and we slept ‘til about 3 o’clock and then we were taken back home again. So that’s what happened. I think that —
MC: Where was that school?
RW: That was Colman Road School and it was near Eaton Park in, in Norwich.
MC: Oh, in Norwich.
RW: Off Unthank Road.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RW: And so that went on, I think for about five months and then I was —
MC: ‘Til you got built up.
RW: Discharged. You wouldn’t think that today would you?
MC: No.
RW: Anyway, I’ve got to tell you about my dad. As I said he finished the service at Marham in Norfolk and I, at the end of the war I used to walk up with him on a Sunday afternoon so he could get the Eastern Counties 34 bus to Kings Lynn so he could get off at Marham. And my dad used to come home with candy bars. They were like chocolate bars but these were American you see. Candy bars. Well, I mean that was a hell of a treat that was. And then at the end of the war also my mother said to me, ‘Quick boy. Get the ration books. They’ve got bananas.’ And I said to me mother, ‘What’s a banana?’ Because you see I was eight years old but I’d never seen a banana. So I get up to the shop and got two bananas. One for my mum and one for me and I didn’t know what to do with it when I got it. So that was that. And in ’47 we went on holiday with the milkman and the milkman used to come around with an old RAF Commer van. About five hundred weight. And he, he scrubbed it out on a Saturday afternoon and it had canvas seats inside and we went to Hemsby near Yarmouth. Now, there’s not many kids in ’47 who went on holiday believe you me and we had a wooden holiday, a wooden bungalow on the beach. There was water but no sewerage. It was in a pan and in a shed and you didn’t want to be there Thursday because that’s when they went around and emptied them. And on the beach by the way was an old fighter plane, German fighter plane and we used to play on there. Now, if you’d have seen the jagged metal and that they’d have a fit today health and safety. But anyway we also had German prisoners of war there. They were in an old windmill and they were taking up by barbed wire and mines from the coast and they used to make rope sandals to sell to the holiday makers for ‘bacca money. And they were, they were still there the next year in ’48. They were still. They didn’t want to go back did they? There was nothing to go back to for them. So as I say it seemed dreary at the time and it was. You know. We got through but only for the, with the help of the Americans who gave, who gave us food. Sent food over for us.
MC: But they’re dreary.
RW: And then they —
MC: But good memories.
RW: And for them we must have hold them in the highest extreme.
MC: Yeah. So did you remember much about the types of aircraft flying around? Or did you see much of the aircraft?
RW: All I heard was all the bombers because they would fly around the Norwich area picking up the squadrons and then they headed for Cromer, Yarmouth or Southwold depending on where the raids were going to go on. And we, I remember after the war the Americans were still there and I was walking down to Thorpe Station on a Sunday evening and I met an American and he said to me, ‘Is there a train to — ’ oh God, what was the name of the station? It’s on the, it’s on the Norfolk coast near Cromer. It’s ever such a big base. And anyway I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘You won’t get a train now.’ I said, ‘Your transport is up on the cattle market behind the Norwich Castle.’ So, he said, ‘Well, I can’t go there.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, ‘Well, I’m half cast,’ he said, ‘The blacks don’t want me and the whites don’t want me.’ Yeah. So that’s a guy who fought in the war. So —
MC: Did you have any contact with any other aircrew from that, from around there?
RW: No. I didn’t. No. As I said I used to hear the bombers as they got ready to fly off in the evenings like you know. Depending on where they were going. You know. Berlin was a long way. Holland and France wasn’t. But fifty five thousand of our men died.
MC: Yeah. So, I mean obviously you know a fair bit about Bomber Command. What do you think about the job that they did?
RW: Oh fabulous. Fabulous job. A friend was telling me that if a cannon had hit a Lancaster’s rear gunner if there wasn’t ten pounds of flesh they weren’t buried. They were just washed out and another bloke got in the seat the next night. So, them sort of guys. For five pence a day. Crazy.
MC: Yeah.
RW: I don’t think that would happen today. I don’t.
MC: No. Probably not.
RW: And I think since the war things have deteriorated. There don’t seem to be any civility and people don’t have any spare time for you. And we seemed to be crowded. Everywhere seems to be crowded.
MC: So, what did your father do in the Air Force?
RW: He was only in spares.
MC: Oh, spares.
RW: He never was in the flying side. No.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
RW: No.
MC: Yeah.
RW: As I say he went from, oh God what did they call it? Manchester Airport.
MC: Yeah. No.
RW: It was [pause] I can’t remember off my head now but I remember going up there and staying in this fancy house. And my mother done the cleaning I think to pay her debts on the way. And then when we came home by train every damned station she was asking a serviceman where were we because she’d never been out of Norwich in her life. And never, and never did go after. After the end of the war. Farthest she went was Hemsby.
MC: So how did you come to leave Norfolk?
RW: Oh, I got, I got called up. National service in ’55. And I went to Suez in ’56. And then I was taken from there, they couldn’t get us out, we were only supposed to be there a fortnight. We were only there about a fortnight.
MC: Were you in the Air Force?
RW: No. I was in the Army.
MC: Army. Yeah.
RW: And they couldn’t get us home so we were ferried on an old steamer across to Cyprus and we landed at Limassol. And then we were taken to a camp. A transit camp near to [unclear] or somewhere. And then I finished up, they built a camp in, our own boy built a camp. A canvas camp. And they had Korean tents in the winter which held about twenty blokes but they had double canvas walls. And then we went to the ordinary four people in a tent. And square tent. But we did have a firebug in the camp who set fire to tents. We had to cut the poles quick and get out and never did find out. But we had an old corporal who was in the Second World War and he used to play the bagpipes and he used to come around at 6 o’clock in the morning blowing these bagpipes and there was a dog. Somebody had a dog and it [howling] in the morning [laughs] Yeah.
MC: That woke you up.
RW: Yeah. And we had a lieutenant who was from the Second World War. He, he was a toughie he was because we had a square camp with gun posts on each corner and two guys with 303 rifles going around the inside. And he got to these two blokes and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ They said, ‘We’re just patrolling, sir.’ Anyway, he grabbed the rifle off one of them because he was that close and he smashed the butt on his head. He said, ‘Don’t let me get that close again.’ Yeah.
MC: Yeah [laughs] So what work did you do when you left, left school?
RW: Oh, I’ve had twenty two jobs.
MC: Oh God [laughs]
RW: I’ve had two sackings. And I worked for two companies for thirty years. Yeah.
MC: Goodness gracious me.
RW: Yeah. So, I’ve been around but I spent nineteen years as a rep in Lincolnshire for Britvic soft drinks. And I also worked for Brooke Bond Tea as a sales rep in the Peterborough area. I used to go out to Oakham and places like that. I done that for eleven years. And one day I pulled up outside this supermarket in Stamford and there was a little boy and his mum and this little boy said to his mum, ‘Oh, look mum there’s one of those monkey men.’ I thought it was about time I changed my job. Yeah.
MC: So that brought you to Lincolnshire then.
RW: I, I lived in London for seven years and I met a girl from Enfield and couldn’t afford to buy a house so we, it was funny because I was talking to a guy on Twinings Tea outside this business where I was a rep and I said, ‘Oh, that would do me. A job like that.’ He said , ‘If you want to go in to this business,’ he said , ‘You want to join Brooke Bonds.’ So anyway, I went down. He told me where the depot was in Wood Green and I went down there and there was only a lady cleaner. She said, ‘You’ve got to get in touch with the head office at Cannon Street.’ So I wrote to them, got an interview and the bloke said, ‘Well, the only thing we’ve got at the moment,’ he said, ‘Is relief drivers for holidays and sickness.’ He said, ‘What do you really want?’ I said, ‘Well, I really would like to get back to Norfolk.’ So he said, ‘Well, look I’ll have a word with my counterpart at Bury St Edmunds.’ I said, ‘Oh, thank you very much,’ because I’d find out his wife come from Yarmouth, you see.
MC: Oh.
RW: So, you see we were on a par. So anyway I got a call to go and see this guy at Bury St Edmunds one Saturday morning. And I hadn’t got a car so I had to hire one. And he said, ‘I’ve got a chap retiring at Peterborough in January.’ This was about September. ‘Would you be interested?’ I said, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘Yes, I would.’ But the money was only twelve pound fifty a week. I was on twenty quid a week in London. But you’ve got to remember the cost of living was much cheaper. So I moved to Peterborough. Twelve pound fifty a week. I bought a three, new three bedroomed semi-detached bungalow at a place just north of Peterborough. Dear me. And —
MC: Whittlesea.
RW: Eh?
MC: Whittlesea.
RW: No. That’s south.
MC: Oh, is it? Course it is. Yeah.
RW: No, it’s north. Werrington.
MC: Oh, I knew it was Werrington [laughs]
RW: Werrington. Yeah. Anyway, the bungalow was two thousand one fifty and I put a deposit of two hundred and ten pound down and I had to pay fourteen pounds fifteen shillings a month for rent. And then I moved from there to Bourne and I had a lovely four bedroom detached house on to the forest, Bourne Woods and that cost me, well the land was nine hundred but the total was four thousand six hundred. Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Amazing.
RW: And you could pick your own brick and what colour tile you wanted as well. Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
[recording paused]
RW: We had a siren on top of a telegraph pole in the British Rail services yard at the top of our road. And, and the other thing I can remember as well we had the 88 bus and —
MC: This is when you were a child.
RW: No. This was ’46.
MC: Oh ’46. Yeah.
RW: This is ’46. And walking up the road and the bus suddenly stopped and it was Remembrance Sunday and everybody got off the bus including the driver got out of the cab and just stood for the three minutes.
MC: Two minutes.
RW: Two minutes.
MC: Yeah.
RW: Yeah. And also about ’47 I went to the, with my father to the City Hall in Norwich and its Memorial Gardens at the front and it was Remembrance Sunday and it was like a football match. There was thousands. Oh, and the other thing I want to tell you was they had Orford Place in the city is now a Debenhams store. But before that it was called Bonds and it was a large department store and it took a direct hit. And I saw when they cleared it out, Brigg Street was to the north side of the Orford Place and the cellars, you could see the cellars below the shop but I, I would say that it was at least seventy foot deep and they used that as a fire hydrant to fight fires in the city. In Norwich. And that was a massive hole that was. And Norwich took a battering with a sort of a Blitz in ’42. April 26, 27th. Because we’d bombed Lubeck Hitler ordered that they should bomb Norwich. Twenty eight aircraft bombed the city. A hundred and sixty two people were killed. Six hundred were injured. They used forty one tonnes of high explosive and three tons of incendiary bombs. And there was a, opposite Colman’s Mustard factory near the river Yare there was some cottages and an old boy I used to imagine was probably a pensioner, he was eighty four years of age and the bomb hit the house. He was upstairs in bed and he finished up in the front garden still in the bed. Unfortunately, he had his daughter and a granddaughter of sixteen in the house and they were both killed. Yeah. Oh, I have two cousins. Three cousins. Two girls and a boy and they lived in a slum in a Coronation Street like houses. And Boulton and Pauls which is on the River Yare was a factory. A wood place. They thought the Defiant and the Mosquito were being built there but they weren’t. My uncle, who was a foreman went to Wolverhampton and his family for the duration of the war building planes. Now, I don’t know if there were Boulton and Paul Defiant or Mosquitoes but I rather think they were Defiant. Anyway, Boulton and Paul’s factory, this bomb was aimed at there and it was only about half a mile off and it came this side of the river and bombed the last house in this row of cottages and seven people were killed. Now, my grandmother lived on our road and she said to her son, George who’d got the three children, ‘You can’t stay there George. You must bring them children out. We’ll swap.’ So, George and the three cousins moved into our road and my grandmother went to live in this cottage. It was a pretty damn poor state of affairs. And they’re still alive today and I still see them every year. Maybe twice a year. They both, two in, three of them live in Norwich still. Yeah. But that was close call. That was a close call. We did have bombs drop on Lakenham but they dropped in the fields and they didn’t do any damage. And I remember ’46 ’47 was a terrible winter. Bitterly cold and it didn’t clear ‘til May but we had an Anderson shelter. The side of an Anderson shelter. They’re zinc. They don’t rust. And you can get six on it and a box to sit on but you couldn’t guide it. It was too bloody fast. So when we got down the bottom of a field you jumped off. You rolled off there on to the snow because it used to hit the edge. You know, this bit. And then we had to drag it back up again. Yeah. And we also used to go down Sandy Lane. And at the bottom of Sandy Lane was a cottage where a water mill was and she used to put her embers from her fire out on the road so that’d slow the sledges down and we went by. Yeah. But there was just by this wind, sorry, water mill. It was called the Lakenham Cock and there was a pub called the Cock Inn. So we used to go in there in the summer. Mum and dad and my sister and we’d have a pop. A bottle of lemonade and a packet of crisps and sit outside on the front of the river. Wow that was a treat that was. Yeah. Oh, during the war Italian prisoners were on Scotsman’s Meadow which is on the road to Stoke Holy Cross just by the estate and we had a river there and we, in fact I learned to swim in it but it wasn’t very good because the cows were also in the water drinking and doing other things and we used to swim in it. But anyway these Italian prisoners were brought in to build [pause] dig a dyke just off the river so that the cattle didn’t go in the river and they went to this dyke. But it wasn’t long before it was overgrown and back to normal. But they were Italian prisoners of war they were.
MC: Were there any German prisoners of war there?
RW: Only what I met on Hemsby.
MC: Oh yeah, you said.
RW: I met them at Hemsby beach. They were digging, as I said land mines and barbed wire out of the beach. Yeah. And that was ’47 when I first met them. When I first saw them and they were brewing tea like for the lads.
MC: So you’ve developed a bit of an interest in the Air Force then.
RW: Well, yes and the history of the Second World War. Yeah. And I’ve been to Auschwitz. That was something that was. I remember seeing all the sandals and the, what else was there? Combs. There were stacks of them in there you know. What was left. But it was a terrible place. You can’t think how one race could treat another. But at the end of the day they got their comeuppance. They didn’t think they were going to lose. In fact, I think if they had bombed for another ten days cities and Air Force bases I think they could have flown in. And it was only that that was that close. It was only that Hitler withdraw the main Air Force to go to Russia. So it was a very close call.
MC: Yes. Indeed it was. Yeah. So, you met, you met your wife —
RW: In London.
MC: In London after the war.
RW: She was Irish.
MC: Oh was she? Yeah.
RW: Yeah. I didn’t know but she got thrown out of the IRA for cruelty. How lucky can you get? And then I met a bloody woman who’s lived with me when I first bought this place and she was an alcoholic. So I’ve been unlucky with women. Anyway, by the way this is my house in Norwich with my mum and dad.
MC: So, Roy.
RW: Roy lived in Enfield and was a pal in mine at this dance school at North Twenty, Barnet High Road. Anyway, in ’53 I went with a chum from Norwich to Caister on Sea Holiday Camp. And there was five girls from Enfield. Ok. I didn’t know where Enfield was then. So anyway I used to do the Creep. You done two steps and rocked and two steps and rocked and I thought I was the cat’s whiskers going around this ballroom. And the band was the [Harmison] brothers and there was five brothers in the band. And they had a special railway line that went through the camp. It went from Norwich to Yarmouth and up the coast to Caister and Hemsby. Only on a Saturday. To take holidaymakers from the East End and London area and they had their own platforms and they used to go as far as Hemsby because I remember seeing the train turn around and the stack of steam coming out. Then he’d pull in, pull up the people who were going home. Same at Caister. And then run back to London Liverpool Street. Yeah. Anyway, the rail was still underneath the sand dunes there at Haven Leisure. Caister on Sea Holiday Camp. The first holiday camp opened in 1903 and people took their own provisions and piled all in together and they cooked their own meals. Yeah. They were in tents in them days. That was the thing there.
[recording paused]
RW: Now, Hadley Woods. Do you know it?
MC: Yeah.
RW: Between Potters Bar and Barnet. And I lived with a chauffeur and his wife and he, he was from Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk. And their name was Death but they were stockbrokers and it was pronounced Deeth. And they used to go to Scotland in winter time for a shoot. Stags. So we used to get venison. Yeah. Which the chauffeur used to bring back. Yeah. Oh, I told you about Elaine Paige. It’s her there. There. Yeah. That was in the North Twenty Dance School that was. Yeah.
MC: Well, Robin thank you very much for that. That was, that was excellent. No, that was excellent. Thank you for all, all your time and thank you for the interview. Thank you very much.
RW: Yeah. I think that’s about —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Robin Wright
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-03-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWrightR180326
Format
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00:35:00 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Norwich
England--Hemsby
Cyprus
England--Caister-on-Sea
Description
An account of the resource
Robin was born in Norwich on 16th June 1937. His father was in the Royal Air Force in Manchester, and then in Thetford Forest where the Merlin engines were stored. He finished his service at RAF Marham. Robin spoke about his school days. He remembered a bomber crashing about half a mile from his home with everyone on board being killed. At the end of the war Robin was undernourished and sent to a special day school in Colman Road where the children were fed three meals a day. In 1947 the family went on holiday to Hemsby, near Yarmouth where German prisoners of war were digging land mines and barbed wire from the beach. Robin got called up for National Service in 1955 and went to Cyprus with the army. Since leaving school he had had 22 jobs. He thought that Bomber Command had done wonderful job.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1947
1955
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
home front
prisoner of war
RAF Marham
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1304/18134/PRumfittPA1901.2.jpg
0d65fa7438fd7bffbba43d8f3ba3f3ad
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1304/18134/ARumfittPA190701.2.mp3
d85540f625f890ed0b62b01f83bd9e9f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rumfitt, Pat
Patricia A Rumfitt
P A Rumfitt
Description
An account of the resource
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-07-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rumfitt, PA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Pat Rumfitt and the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place at Pat Rumfitt’s home in Lincoln on Monday the 1st of July 2019. Also present is Margaret Allsworth. Ok. We’ll make a start Pat and —
PR: Yes.
MC: I think we’ll start at the beginning with you.
PR: Yes.
MC: Just tell us a bit about where and when you were born.
PR: I was born in Thornton Heath, South London in 1927 and I didn’t meet Lister until I was fifteen. So, I think that date was possibly 1943.
MC: So you were born 1927.
PR: I was born in 1927. I met him when I was fifteen.
MC: So, so what did your parents do?
PR: My father was a stockbroker.
MC: Oh right.
PR: And so we were alternately very well off and very poor. Week by week [laughs]
MC: So —
PR: And we lived in Chislehurst in Kent.
MC: Did you have any siblings?
PR: No.
MC: None.
PR: No. My mother and father were each one of large families. My mother was the youngest one of eight. My father was the middle one of five and I think early on in their lives they made up their minds that if they ever got married they’d have one. At the most one. And so I had, I was part of fourteen cousins who all lived in Kent so I, I didn’t lack company but I had my parents to myself. Which is probably why I’m so selfish because you get very spoiled when you’re only one.
MC: What about those early schooldays? What do you remember about those? Did you enjoy them?
PR: I was, I went to a small private school for a long time in Bromley, Kent and then I went to Bromley Girl’s County School when I was nine. And I was there ‘til I was fourteen when I left and I had managed to get, pass an entry exam into Bromley Art School where I was totally at home because the love of my life is to draw and I was able to do exactly what I liked there. They thought I was quite talented and eventually I went in to commercial drawing in the fashion industry. This is all about me. And that was all by accident. I was at the college one day when, you always had people coming around to look at your work and these people came and they turned out to be from the “Tatler” Magazine. Do you remember? They used to, I don’t think there is still a “Tatler” and straight away because the stuff was all in the room, they said, ‘Who did this?’ ‘Who did that?’ And the tutor said, ‘Patricia. That’s Patricia’s work.’ They said, ‘How old are you?’ I think I was about fourteen, something like that at the time and they said, ‘Well, it’s a gift. You do this easily. Would you like a job?’ I said, ‘Oh, my mother wouldn’t let me work. Not yet anyway. I’m too young.’ They said, ‘Well, if and when you do could we be in touch with your mother?’ I think they didn’t think I had a father but I always referred to my mother for everything. I said, ‘Well, she won’t mind at all. Especially if you like the drawings because she’s very very proud of the things I do.’ Anyway, they persisted and several years later when I really did want a job I rang them up and reminded them who I was and what I did, and I got a job because the “Tatler” has a fashion page. I think it’s only a monthly magazine. It has what they called, “The Fashion Page,” and they wanted drawings of accessories or make up all around the frieze. Nicely, good taste little black and white drawings, you know. So I would draw gloves, shoes, handbags, an eye with make-up, all these things and I was good at it. It was a gift because I didn’t have any trouble doing it and they paid me very well. When my father heard what they were going to pay he said, ‘You should take the job. [laughs] You should take the job.’
MC: So growing up, growing up as a child before the war what was it like? I mean, did you —
PR: Oh, well before the war, ah well mine was quite a privileged life. We had a nice home, a nice garden and until we weren’t able to we used to go abroad once a year for a holiday. My mother liked Italy but, so we would go and I think the last time I didn’t go with them. It was 1938 and my mother went to her beloved Portofino. When they came back she, they, they were then convinced that they wouldn’t be going abroad the next year. They had already got the feeling that we were going to have a war but they didn’t have that feeling in England. They got the feeling in Italy. I don’t know whether they weren’t made welcome. I’ve no idea but when they came back I said, ‘Well, next year I’ll go with you and I can see this Portofino,’ because I’d been there with them when I was younger and I, it’s built on the side of the rocks you know overlooking the sea. It’s lovely. But it didn’t appeal to me very much. It wasn’t a young person’s place. Anyway, then the war came. I was twelve when it started and I was still at the County School. Then I left and went to the Art School which I’ve already told you. I was fourteen when I went to the Art School which was young. They didn’t really want you until you were sixteen but if your portfolio was impressive they would allow you to attend but you didn’t get much else. You only got art and that was considered a bit young to leave ordinary education but —
MC: So this was all growing up during the war.
PR: That was growing up.
MC: During the war.
PR: During the war.
MC: Yeah. So it —
PR: And of course living in Kent we were bombed most nights. I’m not saying we didn’t care. We just got used to it and —
MC: Were you affected directly by the bombing at all?
PR: Well [laughs] we were once because my father decided that my mother and I should go to a place of greater safety than Bomb Alley which was what Bromley, Kent was called which it was and we had barrage balloons, and we were four miles from Biggin Hill which of course was target number one. So if they weren’t going past us to bomb the West End or the East End of London they were going to bomb Biggin Hill. So we were, we were in the middle and so we did have, and I can honestly say we actually got used to it. I certainly got used to being told to, you went in your pyjamas and a plaid sort of dressing gown with a funny sort of cord and Wellington boots which you would go down the garden and climb into an Anderson shelter which of course almost as soon as it was put in the ground half filled with water so you could only go on to the top bunks. You certainly couldn’t sit at the bottom because it was now underwater and all the food in tins that my mother had put in there to save for later during the war all went rusty. All the underwear and woollies and things she put in they all floated away. We had to carry the dog because he was a little Brindle. And the war was a joke. It really, it was. In Kent it was a joke. Then my mother who was running the war from a sitting position, she was in the Red Cross, she was in the ARP, she was a warden, she did everything she could to help. She made tea. My father stood at the end of the drive with a garden fork. He was in the LDV. He was too old to be called up and too young to die. You know. I mean there he was in no man’s land and all he did was defend England with a garden fork with a head about this big that I couldn’t lift up it was so heavy and stood at the end of the drive in front of the house. Then he would be on fire duty and, and he was a home, most of all he was home LDV but nobody liked being on duty with him because they had three at a time. One on duty at the end of the drive and two trying to get a bit of a sleep but when it was his turn to sleep he kept the others awake because he snored. So they really didn’t want my father but it was his garage and he insisted upon being there. So he was [laughs] They couldn’t get rid of him but they put up with, they used to put him on fire duty which meant he was on the roof of the garage, the flat roof looking for the bombers, you know. I mean looking for fire bombs.
MC: Yes.
PR: A very dangerous position they gave him but I think they thought this will get rid of him [laughs] But he survived the war my dear dad. He did. He survived the war.
MC: So, as a young girl growing up what sort of entertainment did you have then?
PR: Oh, well —
MC: I mean, obviously —
PR: We had, from our point of view we were our entertainment was really in Bromley, Kent and it is loaded with pubs. I was far too young to drink but my parents took me all the time. So I would always be either left outside, during the raids of course [laughs] while they were inside drinking with everybody else. It was a fairly, it was a fairly rowdy time you know. People weren’t depressed. We were, we were a bit fed up about the food because that was very severely rationed. And then we got a pig. My mother of course, her name was Gertrude and she was a lady pig and my mother loved her to bits. We could never have her killed for bacon meat. So she lived with us for several years because my mother would not have her slaughtered and we had to give up our meat ration, our bacon ration, everything because we’d got a pig. We kept, we suddenly started keeping chickens. They didn’t lay so that was a waste of time [laughs] I remember this so well that everything was going to be alright. We’re having a chicken. We have a pig. We won’t, we’ll always have meat. We’ll always have eggs. We didn’t have either because the pig wasn’t allowed to be killed and the chickens didn’t lay [laughs] And the bombs went on every night. Then my father decided to send us to [pause] what was the name of the place? Does Berkhamsted sound like a proper place because I think that was, I don’t think that was the county? I think that was the sort of location, and the first night we got there the house next door was blown to blazes. So we were all moved back again to Bomb Alley because it was much more dangerous in Berkhamsted. Well, I don’t think they had another raid. They only had the one and it blew up the neighbour’s house. Five people in it were killed. They’d never had any raids before. I think the Germans knew that all these kids from Kent had gone there with their mothers for a night’s sleep and bang. But it, it literally took the house out. There was just a hole where it had been. It was a detached but it was only six feet from the one we were in. We lost a couple of windows at the top front but that was all. Houses further away lost their windows but we didn’t. The blast went past us.
MC: So how long were you down there?
PR: Well, we came back the next day.
MC: Oh, you didn’t stop.
PR: No. No. No. No. No. Can’t stay there. It’s obviously —
MC: Yeah.
PR: Much more dangerous than Bromley, Kent. So we, my father who had managed to get, because there was no petrol people forget this you know when they’re talking about it and you think how did they get there? But you got very very little. Sort of an eggcup, you know with a hole in the bottom. But my father saved up his coupons and my uncle gave him his coupons and he was able to take us over to this Berkhamsted. The next day he had to use more petrol to come and get us back. He was more worried about the petrol than he was about us. And we used to go to our local Country Club, Bromley Country Club for entertainment. My mother and father liked to dance and that’s where the chaps from Biggin Hill went because it was the nearest, well, only Country Club and they could swim there. They still had the open air pool and they managed to keep it clean and chlorinated and everything. So if the pilots could get away ever because Biggin Hill flew during, as you know was a daytime station. They weren’t night fighters. They were Spitfires. When the Americans came, the Eagle Squadron came there the Eagle Squadron did fly at night, but our Spitfires never did. I know that for a fact because I remember my mother would say, ‘Well, they can come over for breakfast. Then they’ll have to go back because they’ll be going off again at eleven,’ or something like that. We knew all about the timing of their sorties because of when they came and had what my mother could scrape together. We had egg. Powdered egg in tins and she used to make huge mountains of scrambled egg and they liked it. I couldn’t eat it. It was like rubber. It was horrible. But the pilots liked it. Anything they could get their hands on they ate and they of course were allowed alcohol which was forbidden to civilians. You couldn’t walk into the pub and say, ‘I’ll have a double whisky.’ I didn’t drink but I know my father was a whisky drinker and he could only get one every now and again because he knew the barman but it wasn’t really allowed. There was no spirit allowance for the civilians. I think it all went to the officer’s mess. And because we were so near to Biggin Hill we were almost under martial law really because we had, we had to keep secrets, and we had to be careful with what we said and they were careful with what they told us, you know. My mother used to make an enormous fuss of these boys, because they weren’t much older than me and it was like having a house full of sons and she’d never had any. And they loved my mother. She was all bosom and strings of pearls you know and, ‘Oh, tell me what would you like?’ ‘What will you have?’ [laughs] You know, you know I can caricature her but she was lovely. She was a lovely lovely lady.
MC: She sounds it.
PR: Oh, she was. She was great.
MC: So, how old, so let’s get on to Lister then.
PR: Well —
MC: How old were you when you met and how did you come meet Lister?
PR: How did I meet him? Well, this is quite a funny story. My mother became quite tetchy and difficult and the doctor, my father, he said, ‘Well, she’s running the war isn’t she? This is the trouble.’ ‘I think you should get her away. Has she, are any of these enormous number of sisters do any of them live somewhere like Devon, Wales, Scotland? Somewhere where they don’t know about the war.’ My father said, ‘Her eldest sister lives in Edinburgh.’ He said, ‘Well, they don’t know there’s a war on up there. Why don’t you send her there?’ My mother said, ‘I can’t leave. I can’t leave Kent.’ You know [laughs] I mean, it was almost like abdicating because she just didn’t want to go. Anyway, my father insisted. I think she was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. She was running left and right and everything. And my aunt in Scotland didn’t have a phone so everything had to be done in writing. And the next week we heard back to say she would be delighted to have my mother and I to stay, but the Navy was in in Leith Dockyards and the place was full of Norwegian sailors. My father [laughs] my father didn’t like the sound of the Norwegian Navy but these are all facts and I remember them and I was then fifteen. And so we went to Kings Cross. Daddy took us to Kings Cross using another egg cup of petrol. So he loaded us into a train and in those days the carriages were for eight people. Is it too cold for you? Is it?
[recording paused]
MC: So you were —
PR: We were in a carriage. In those days you had a corridor with a loo at one end, and half a dozen carriages with sliding doors. The trains weren’t like they are now. They were strange little upright, with four seats a side and sort of flock velvet you know. And so my mother, my mother sat in the corner seat and I sat next to her and there were three other people. So there were five of us in these four seats. So I was the one that was sort of like this, you know. I was obviously the youngest. I was also the tallest. I’d certainly got the longest legs. There was more of me to fold up than there was of anyone else but I got the dickie seat, and we sat there because nothing went on time. It went when it could. And I think it was a daytime train. It was normally an eight hour journey and we were on it at about 9 o’clock in the morning. Come up from Kent by car. Got in to the train when suddenly the sliding door was pulled back and there in the doorway was this beautiful young man in a uniform with a kit bag over his shoulder. My mother took one look and said, ‘Oh look. It’s one of the boys.’ She immediately thought pilot. He would be a fighter pilot from Biggin Hill. So she said, ‘Come on in. You can sit. Patsy can sit on my lap. You can sit on her seat.’ So I now lost this dodgy bit of velvet and he came and sat in it and he said to my mother, ‘I’ve got a better idea. Why doesn’t she sit on my lap?’ And my mother said, ‘Because she’s only fifteen and I’m not going to let her.’ [laughs] Anyway, he was charming and very chatty. He and my mother talked all the way to Scotland. No one could use the loo which was a bit difficult because when you pulled into some big station everybody got out and ran about looking for a loo. You were lucky if you got back before it went but needs must and so we all got off and we all got back. I still didn’t get a seat. I still had to sit on my mother’s lap. By the time we got to Edinburgh it took about eleven hours because it was stop start and there were raids. As far up as the Midlands you had to be aware that there would be an air raid. That’s quite frightening when you’re in a train strangely enough. I’d never bothered about it much in the house because you went in the cupboard under the stairs, waited for it to be over, came out, picked up all the broken things and got on but if you’re on a train you can’t do anything. You’re a, you’re a target, aren’t you? Anyway, we got to Edinburgh and my mother and the boy had a fond farewell and then she said, well I heard her say, ‘I shall be there. Not tonight but I shall be there tomorrow night,’ because he was staying at the Officer’s Club in Princes Street and this was where my mother was going to run the bar for the Red Cross. This was her holiday. She thought that she was being sent there so that she could pull Edinburgh’s socks up, you know. But she wasn’t. She was sent there because she was ill. Anyway, the following afternoon she said, ‘Now, Patsy, you’d better get yourself changed because I’m taking you with me to the Club this evening. You can do the tea urn.’ Because I was too young to be anywhere near the booze because they had plenty of alcohol in the Officer’s Club. My mother was going to see to it that this was distributed fairly. I suppose we’d been there about an hour when I recognised sir in a doorway and he went straight to my mother. She was, I was miles away. A good fifty yards long this damned great room was and I was at the far end with this wretched tea urn. We didn’t have tea bags in those days by the way. It was all tea leaves and big jugs of milk you know and only allowed so much and it was made up of powdered milk. Horrible stuff. And I saw him go to my mother and apparently, her version of it was she said, ‘Oh, how lovely. Are you comfortable? Is your room alright?’ He said, ‘Well, I’m sharing. I haven’t met the chap I’m sharing with yet but his stuff is in the room. I’ll meet him later. He didn’t come in last night but his luggage was there.’ So he was evidently sharing with another officer who had gone off to see friends or relatives or something. And she said, ‘Well, what can I get you?’ And he said, just like yesterday, ‘The girl at the end of the bar.’ And so she said, ‘I told you that’s my daughter and she’s fifteen. No. You can’t have the girl at the end of the bar.’ And he said, ‘I can wait.’ And he did, ‘til I was seventeen when we got married. But we met just like that on the train.
MC: So did you see much of him during, during that period?
PR: Yes. He came to us for his leaves and stayed with my mother and father in our house. And he wasn’t too pleased that most days it filled up with fighter pilots because when he had, he was at public school here apparently and the recruiting officers, you may know all about this apparently they went to public schools and took the cream off the top, put them into OFTU, and they, they asked him if he’d like to be in the Air Force. They weren’t going to give him any choice. They only were recruiting for the Air Force, and he said he would love to thinking he would love to, thinking he would like to fly a fighter. Anyway, he went straight in and it was quite obvious that he was mentally capable of flying a Lancaster and that’s what he was trained for. When he was twenty he came out of there.
MC: So, what was he doing up in Scotland then?
PR: On leave.
MC: Oh, did he —
PR: He just went on leave.
MC: Oh, he was only up there on leave. He wasn’t stationed up there.
PR: I don’t know where. No. No.
MC: No. Oh right.
PR: No. He went, he got on at Kings Cross. So far as I know he must have been stationed down here because he didn’t get on anywhere near Bruntingthorpe. He got on in London. Whether he’d had to go to London. I never found that out.
MC: You never knew where he was stationed.
PR: I didn’t know where he was stationed then. I only knew that at the time, at the time we got to know him and he came on leave he was always at Bruntingthorpe in Leicestershire. And a couple of times I went to visit him in Leicester and I can’t even remember [pause] I stayed in a hotel in the middle of the town there and he used to come in when he could. But I never saw him in the evenings because they flew at night. He was a night bomber. And he never discussed his job. He was obviously very popular because there was always a crowd of people with him. They weren’t all his crew because they weren’t all officers. They were nearly all sergeants and he did when I, when I married him, not when I met him but by the time I married him he had completed one tour which was I believe twenty six missions. He was now half way through the second lot. He got a DFC at the end of the first lot. And for getting through the second lot he got a bar to his DFC. Got another DFC. It was automatic.
MC: So —
PR: You know.
MC: You say he was at Bruntingthorpe.
PR: Bruntingthorpe.
MC: What aircraft? Do you know what aircraft?
PR: Lancasters. Always Lancasters.
MC: Always Lancasters.
PR: Always Lancasters. I never knew him mention any —
MC: When, when did you get married then?
PR: 1945, this is when I got this certificate.
MC: So you said. 1945.
PR: 1945. When I was still seventeen. I wasn’t eighteen until the March. We got married in the February. He was twenty. And he was [pause] actively flying then. He got a weekend. An extended weekend. That’s what they called it. An extended weekend.
MC: Yes.
PR: So he would be home on Friday morning at my mother’s house and he wouldn’t leave there until Monday afternoon to get back to Leicestershire. Well, then I started going with him but we never had a home. We always, I was sort of billeted at the pub at Bruntingthorpe. I had a very nice room there. When he came off every morning he used to join me there for breakfast and of course he was allowed sausages, bacon, so forth. I was lucky to get an egg. But as a civilian you, you had no, you took your ration book and you worked your way through their rations in their pub and we didn’t get an egg a day.
MC: So, what rank was he when you married?
PR: Flying officer.
MC: Oh, he was flying officer.
PR: That’s what he is in the picture. You can see he’s got the ring. The wide ring. By the time our marriage finished and the war was over he was an acting squadron leader. Now, I don’t know whether that means he got the rank. Whether he was only. Everybody else was dead. When I said, ‘You’re now a squadron leader,’ he said, ‘Well, I’m acting squadron leader. There’s nobody else left.’
MC: So, where —
PR: I was still staying at the pub in Bruntingthorpe.
MC: So, how long did he stay in the Air Force after the war was over then?
PR: Oh, well —
MC: When did he come out of the Air Force?
PR: To my knowledge — I only sat it out for another year because I wanted a home. I was sick and tired of being in a billet which was in my case a nice hotel, a nice pub but it wasn’t my home. And I then decided to go home to my mother and that didn’t please him because he was still stationed there. And about a year after that he came out and that’s when he decided because his family were in Australia that he wished to go back there and he wanted me to go. Well, at one stage the Air Force shipped me over. I don’t know whether you know about that system but I went on a boat. It took three and a half weeks. I shared a very small smelly little cabin with another officer’s wife that I’d never met before and we went to Sydney. Well, his family were in Townsville in Queensland. That’s a long way away and I went up country as they call it on a train and I hated Australia. It was hot, dusty. I didn’t like the people. Oh my God. They were awful. Mind you this is seventy years ago. They’re probably civilised now. Apparently everybody loves it but I absolutely hated it. I thought it was [pause] well, outback was the word for it. It was so rough and the people spoke this strange lingo. I couldn’t understand them and they made no attempt to understand me because I was just foreign, you know. I mean, and his family were shipping agents in Townsville in Queensland and obviously well off. Well off enough to send him to England to public school. That took some doing I can assure you. And their house was on stilts and they had strange sort of native people that lived underneath and they were, well you didn’t need a gardener. It was just someone to rake the sand, you know. It was awful, you know. Townsville I suppose now is quite glamourous and probably has spas and clubs but then it was just rough. But it’s seventy years ago so, or more because I was still only what eighteen? Nineteen? Something like that. And I’m ninety two now so if I was even twenty it was seventy two years ago isn’t it?
MC: Yes. I mean is Lister Arrowsmith was his name —
PR: Yes.
MC: Did he have a middle name?
PR: Lister Harvey.
MC: I did do some research.
PR: Lister Harvey Arrowsmith. Yes.
MC: Yes. Yeah. His commission was Gazetted on the 17th of October 1944.
PR: Was it?
MC: 1944. To flying officer. Yeah.
PR: Yeah. He was flying officer when I married him.
MC: Yes. Yeah. But you don’t know what squadron he was with.
PR: I still don’t know the number of the squadron.
MC: No.
PR: Do you know I don’t think I ever asked.
MC: So when —
PR: He was just flying a bomber.
MC: Yeah. I know he did his first tour in 90 Squadron.
PR: Did he?
MC: Yeah. Tuddenham.
PR: Collingham.
MC: Tuddenham. Tuddenham.
PR: Tuddenham.
MC: RAF Tuddenham. T U D D E N H A M.
PR: That’s where he started was it?
MC: That’s where he did his first tour, yeah. As a pilot. But I don’t know much about, more about him than that.
PR: He had a [coughs] when people say, people used to fall back in amazement when, because he had the obviously he had a DFC on his uniform, and they all knew because it was length of service that got you that in those days. You didn’t have to do anything particularly brave. It was as he said, ‘I’m only doing my job.’
MC: Yeah, but to complete a full tour, full tour of operations on Bomber Command.
PR: Well, exactly but then he, when I took, I said, ‘Why are they so surprised that you’ve done so many? Because you don’t seem to think it’s very clever.’ He said, ‘It’s experience.’ I said, ‘How do you mean experience?’ Because he was still what, twenty?
MC: I know.
PR: And most of the people who worked with him were a great deal older and sometimes I think he had trouble with them because he had such a baby face, and he was excessively handsome. And I think most of the men thought Christ, look at this. You know. This is competition. And he was. He was beautiful. He really was beautiful. That’s why I married him. I had no other reason. I was only seventeen. I only knew how he looked.
MC: So, did you have any children with him?
PR: No.
MC: Oh. No.
PR: No, we didn’t. But we didn’t have a home either. We had great plans for having children but I always regarded the thing as a bit [pause] I think I always thought of it as temporary. I think I was too young to get married, and in the first place my father didn’t want me to. He said, ‘Patsy, you’re too young.’ And I just said, ‘Oh, you’re just, daddy you just don’t want me marry anybody.’ And he, he really didn’t want me to get married. My grandmother couldn’t wait for me to marry him because she fell in love with him the moment she saw him. My mother’s mother. And she said, ‘Oh, Patsy where ever did you meet him?’ I said, ‘I was with mummy on a train.’ And she said, ‘Well, he’s the one for you dear. Don’t you ever let him go.’ This was the first time she’d met him. She was seventy eight at the time but she just went mad about him.
MC: Did you know at the time he was from Australia? Did he have an accent?
PR: I knew that, I knew he’d been born there but I didn’t realise because when I first met him he was in an ordinary RAF officer’s uniform. It wasn’t until much later he said, ‘I’ve got to get a new uniform. I’m in the wrong thing.’ And he had to go off to Gieves and Hawkes and get another lot made and this time in the dark blue which I didn’t like at all. I didn’t like it. And then he had Australia on his shoulder then after that. But up ‘til then he’d just been RAF and of course several years in a public school had eradicated that ghastly accent so even I hadn’t ever heard it and he wouldn’t have dreamt of using it. Certainly not with my mother and father, you know because they would have said, ‘What was that? Whatever was that?’ You know. Because it is a horrible accent. It is still now. And most of them still speak like that.
MC: Yeah.
PR: Well, it isn’t a case of being snobby. It’s unattractive. It’s like the South African. It’s horrible.
MC: So what, do you know what happened to him after the war?
PR: I know he went back to Australia and when I was in my early twenties he came back here. He wanted to talk me out of getting, because I still hadn’t got it. It took me six years to get the divorce and in the end my father got it for me. I needed it because you see I had left him. He didn’t want me to go and every time we tried to get it to court our solicitor would say, ‘He doesn’t want to know. He’s not going to. You’re not going to get a divorce from him. He doesn’t want you to and you haven’t done anything. He’s not divorcing you. You’re divorcing him and he hasn’t done anything. You can’t get a divorce from him.’ And then my father, who was a stockbroker said, ‘I’ll get someone in the City, Patsy. I’ll get you a divorce lawyer. We’ll get out.’ I don’t know how he did it but on the sixth year of trying I got my divorce. But the year before that when that first started he came back here as a civilian and just appeared at my mother’s house and said he’d come for me. I was out. When he arrived I was actually out to dinner with somebody. I was horrified when I got home. Mummy said, ‘Lister’s here. He’s staying in London. He’s not staying with us.’ I said, ‘What’s he doing here?’ She said, ‘Well, he’s apparently come back for you. He hasn’t got the message yet.’ I said, ‘Well, did you explain to him that we are at last hopeful of getting — ’ She said, ‘He doesn’t want a divorce, Patsy. It’s going to be increasingly difficult. Especially as he’s now here.’ I said, ‘Well, has he come back here to live?’ She said, ‘He didn’t say. He just said I’ve come back to collect Patsy. She is my wife and I want her back.’ He wanted to take me to Australia.
MC: So, but you didn’t go.
PR: Oh, I made a mistake in going the first time. I shouldn’t have gone but I was curious because I thought well maybe I’ve got, I was grown up enough then to think well you are married and the least you can do is go and find out if it would work. The Air Force put me on a boat. They weren’t flying people anywhere. And there were mines of course. The sea was heavily mined so we took our lives in our hands those of us that went on that boat. And it was a terrible journey. Oh God, it was awful. I hated it and I liked boats but I didn’t like that one. It was very uncomfortable. Very hot.
MC: So you finished with the RAF after that then. The Royal Air Force.
PR: Well, not really because it’s addictive isn’t it? The Air Force. I’ve never got I will never get divorced from Biggin Hill because that was brilliant. What a place. What a place. I wasn’t made very welcome there because I’d married a bomber so all my mother’s boys didn’t like that. Those that survived you know she heard from for years afterwards. They all married and they all had families and they all wrote to my mother. It was as if she was a sort of surrogate mother. She’d made them so welcome I think when nobody else had. She welcomed them all and gave them our rations and everything else she could lay her hands on. My father wouldn’t let her deal on the Black Market so it all had to come out of our rations and there were plenty of opportunities to deal on the Black Market but he just wouldn’t. On principal he wouldn’t. He said, ‘I couldn’t eat it. No. I couldn’t eat that. We’ve got a pig.’ [laughs] You know.
MC: So I mean obviously Lister Arrowsmith, you don’t, you don’t know much about his squadrons as you said. What squadrons he was on.
PR: No. No. I don’t know. All I know is that when I last spoke to him he was an acting squadron leader. Well, so far as everyone was. But he didn’t have, because I said, ‘Oh God, have I got to sew those rings on?’ He said, ‘No. I’m only acting.’ So I think it wasn’t established.
MC: Was he at Bruntingthorpe at that time?
PR: Yes. He was still at Bruntingthorpe but of course when he came back to England he was a civilian and he’d been a civilian for at least four years. So, as I say it took me six years from start to finish to get my divorce. And I think in the end he realised it was useless because I was a different person. By the time he came back I’d grown up and I was now working in London. I worked with my father at the Stock Exchange. In his office. His brokers. And I was totally different from the little girl he’d married, you know. I mean, you had to be. If you worked in the City you had to look as if you worked in the City and I did. I used to go up on the train with my father but my father had an enormous influence on me always. I miss him dreadfully but I don’t think, I don’t think he actually spoiled me. He just wanted the best. If I wanted something he would move heaven on earth to get it. The way he did the divorce, you know.
MC: I think that’s, you know, I mean it’s a brilliant story, Pat. I mean it’s —
PR: Yeah.
MC: It’s lovely. Thank you very much.
PR: Well, there’s nothing —
MC: Thank you for talking with us.
PR: I can’t really tell you anything. I don’t even know if he’s still alive. You can find that out on your
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Pat Rumfitt
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-07-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARumfittPA190701, PRumfittPA1901
Format
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00:45:49 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Pat Rumfitt was born in 1927 and experienced a privileged upbringing living in Kent as an only child before the war. She describes the resilient attitude to bombing in Bromley, walking to their flooded Anderson Shelter in her dressing gown and wellies, and evacuating only to return the following day after a near-miss. Rumfitt recalls her dissatisfaction with food rations and her parents acquiring chickens and a pig to ensure they had food, yet neither generating produce. She details her mother’s proactive involvement with The Red Cross and her caring nature for the pilots at RAF Biggin Hill. In 1941, at the age of 14, Rumfitt attended Bromley Arts School, where she was later offered a job with Tatler magazine and pursued commercial drawing in the fashion industry. She also visited Edinburgh with her mother in 1942, where she met Lister Harvey Arrowsmith, a flying officer based at RAF Bruntingthorpe. She married Arrowsmith in 1945, at which time, he had completed 26 operations and received the Distinguished Flying Cross. After the war, Rumfitt visited her husband’s home in Australia but strongly disliked the culture and filed for a divorce, which took six years to finalise. Finally, she describes her lifelong fondness for RAF Biggin Hill, and her mother remaining in touch with the officers that she cared for.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Great Britain
England--Kent
England--Suffolk
England--Leicestershire
England--Bromley
England--London
Scotland--Edinburgh
England--Essex
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
90 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
childhood in wartime
Distinguished Flying Cross
evacuation
home front
love and romance
pilot
RAF Biggin Hill
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Tuddenham
Red Cross
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1315/19571/PHarrisonH1901.1.jpg
6d21eea9281546d639915b5251174aee
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1315/19571/AHarrisonH191111.2.mp3
93cc876f69bf913a83c7cd85e7aae2a9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harrison, Pat
Hazel Harrison
H Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Pat Harrison (b. 1929). The only girl of four children, she recollects her wartime years in Lincoln.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-11-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harrison, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Pat Harrison, and the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place at Pat Harrison’s home in Lincoln on Monday the 11th of November 2019 at Mrs Harrison’s home in Lincoln. I’ve said that. Also present is Mrs Harrison’s daughter Sue Harrison. Ok, Pat. We’ll start right at the beginning. Just a bit of information about you. Just tell me a bit about when where and you were born.
PH: I was born in 38 Drake Street in Lincoln. And my parents must have moved down in to Baggeholme Road not long after that, or when I was quite young because the Junior School was across the road from the house, and we were there until it was bombed.
MC: Yeah. So, I mean you were born and bred in Lincoln then.
PH: Yes.
MC: Or you’ve lived around this area all of your life.
PH: I’ve been away to work. I started nursing at Osgodby, but then my father had gone abroad and mother had got us, and she had to work during the war so I came home to be with her.
MC: So when were you born?
PH: June the 24th 1929.
MC: 1929. That’s a bit significant, isn’t it? Ninety nine.
PH: I’m going for the hundred now.
MC: Good for you.
PH: And do you know what my daughter says? I won’t tell you.
MC: You can tell me. It’s alright [laughs] So what did your parents do then?
PH: Well, mother, well my father went into the air, when they were first married in about 1924, I think it was, ’23 or ’24, and they had my elder brother Neville. He became a councillor in Lincoln after serving in the army for twenty two years. And they, at one time they were living at somewhere near Stowe. They were married at Stow Church so it was that area there. And when they came into Lincoln. I think dad was working at Fosters at one time. Fosters. Where the tank was built.
MC: Yeah.
PH: And that. And when he went into the RAF, and I’m not quite sure which year that was. Mother had to work of course, because she was there at that time when I was, when I’d left the junior school mother was still only in her late thirties, and that and she became a conductress on the —
SH: Roadcar, was it?
PH: The Roadcar.
MC: The buses. The buses. Yeah.
PH: And she loved the job, and liked to be there. But I might, might get these thing mixed up a bit, but before dad went into the RAF of course he was an air warden. Air raid warden in the Baggeholme Road district, and they used to have a meeting place in Sparrow Lane and meet up there. And often us kids got involved in concerts they were putting on around the city to make it a bit happier for older people who couldn’t get out and that sort of thing. I remember doing a concert at South Bar Church. Friends and I. And I remember once getting a big box of chocolates from the ARP wardens because I acted as a casualty for them, and I don’t know why I always got roped in because I’d got three brothers.
MC: How old were you then?
PH: Well, only I think probably eight, nine or ten. Not, not very old then and, which I didn’t mind but I remember doing this concert at I say at the South Bar Church and doing the, and I was Britannia at the end and I was so thrilled. And [laughs] but as the war came, and I must have left the Junior School which was across the road from us before that. Before I was actually eleven with it being war time. Then there was more evacuees and that coming into Lincoln.
MC: Because you’d be about ten when war broke out.
PH: Yeah. Actually it then went to eleven didn’t it —
MC: Yeah.
PH: When you changed schools to eleven to fourteen. But we must have gone earlier and of course after the place was bombed we had to sort of go to different schools and just fit in where we could.
SH: When did you get to the newsagents? When did you move to the Baggeholme Road newsagent’s?
PH: Well, that, that was quite later on. That was after. Well, just before I was married I’d say so, but in the younger days my eldest brother Neville he was a messenger. I don’t know where Brian was but both Neville and Brian they then eventually went in to the Army as boy service.
MC: So you, how many brothers did you have?
PH: I had three but John was a watch repairer in Lincoln. In Baggeholme Road. I don’t know whether you heard of him.
SH: He had polio as a child.
PH: He’d had polio as a child.
MC: Oh right.
PH: And he was affected from the waist down. And he went to, eventually went to a training school in Northampton somewhere through the help of Wilfred Pickles.
MC: Oh yes.
PH: Can you remember?
MC: Yes, I do indeed.
PH: He used to do a lot for handicapped children. Mother had got in touch with him. Taught John watch repairing and that. Came home, and then he worked for Mr Fry in St Mary’s Street.
MC: Fry’s the jewellers.
PH: Yeah. And he got, after John died Mr Fry put a lovely comment in the Echo about that. But as I say going up to Spring Hill we just walked up there every day and the girls have often said to me, ‘Well, what did you do?’ and I said, ‘Well, we just carried on as we could.’ We went to school. There was air raid shelters in the grounds, but they wouldn’t have been much good because they were brick built if anything had hit us. And I say on a Friday we used to call at the fish shop on there just to have our lunch or it was packing up. There was no ready-made lunches at that time, and I remember in this queue one Friday sirens went, and we had to go back which was only across the road to the school, yard, go in to the shelters and of course we were in there quite a long time and we hadn’t had any lunch and luckily it was cookery day. We used to have half class cookery and half, you know just ordinary housework things, and doing like that because there was so many of us, we couldn’t all be there at once. So and I remember Miss Stole who was the cookery teacher and she made us a little sandwich of what would be a little Hovis loaf and a drink of orange juice. And of course then we had to wait until we got home, but no —
MC: And which school was that at?
PH: That was Spring Hill.
MC: So did you enjoy your early school days?
PH: Yeah. I never, you know, I never saw any bullying. There was probably little arguments sometimes, but I never saw any bullying and when the teachers remembered one of them Miss Watson I got on ever so well with and people used to say she was a bit of a tiger, but I always got on well. And when she knew that I was going to start nursing and that, she was very interested and kept in touch.
MC: So life was growing up just before the war was —
PH: Growing up that was.
MC: Was hardship. Was it?
PH: Well, it started then. The war had started then.
MC: Yeah.
PH: We were walking to school through the war and that.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
PH: And then.
MC: So originally you went to Baggeholme Road though.
PH: Yes. That was just a Junior School. You know, up to what would have been from five to eleven wouldn’t it? But they had to go earlier. But no, we, after we’d been bombed which fell on the school. There was one in Baggeholme Road. A place which is still an opening. I think it’s just got a garage in it or something now. Avondale Street, Mr Brown was killed opening the shelter, which was a brick shelter, which is in the next street. Which way is it, Sue? That’s way isn’t it?
SH: That way. Yeah.
PH: Yeah. And Mr [Medd] in Coningsby Street, a lovely old gentleman, he was killed and his wife died later. Mrs Morris, she had head injuries from that. And at the time for years I thought there had only been one bomb on the school but apparently there was five in the area. Another time I was in the back yard one Sunday afternoon. I’m sure it was Sunday, and looking at this plane going over and we sort of began to recognise the sounds of them, and I thought that sounds funny. And it was when they dropped some bombs on, at the hospital.
MC: Oh right. Yes.
PH: And I used to say to my father, I said I think it was that they said there was four bombs dropped, and I kept saying it was five, or it was five, and there was six, it was. And he kept saying, ‘No,’ he said, There wasn’t,’ he said. They, the [unclear] them all, didn’t they, eventually found another one didn’t they in, under the High Bridge.
MC: Oh did they? Yeah.
PH: Didn’t they, yeah.
MC: So when this bombing round here took place, did you, you didn’t see the aircraft at all.
PH: No, because it was early hours. It was in the night or early hours of the morning. And we didn’t see that. But we ought, mother, they had a bay window in her room with a blanket box on it, and we used to, her and I used to stand on it and watch the aeroplanes going out because there wasn’t just one Lancaster in the sky. And when they came back they were sort of circling and waiting to land. And a girl I knew whose dad was the barber in Baggeholme Road, her husband was killed waiting to land, and he couldn’t land because there was all the other, I forget what they called it when they were just circling around.
MC: Circling, yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
PH: And waiting to land and that. And they were such a lovely couple. She hadn’t been married very —
MC: Did you have any warning of this air raid? No?
PH: Not that morning.
MC: No.
PH: Not the Baggeholme Road one.
MC: No.
PH: No. We were fast asleep and we had an elderly lady staying with us and she was made comfortable in the front room. And she had, there was one of mum’s sideboards there where she used to put her extra sugar and things like that and the night we all wanted tea, we lived on tea in those days, and she went around because she couldn’t get through. It would be like a door like this. She couldn’t get through that. It had gone all wonky and went round. The policeman wouldn’t let her in until he made doubly sure she was who she was saying she was and it was, you know it was things like that that we —
MC: Yeah.
MC: But of course it left [pause] you said your prayers every night after that.
MC: Yeah. Because you didn’t know. Yeah.
PH: And knowing those people who had died and been injured. Yeah. And, but —
MC: So there was, you reckoned that there was supposed to be five bombs that were dropped were there?
PH: Yeah. I thought as I say with being young I thought there was only one.
MC: Yeah.
PH: On the school but there was there was five in the area.
MC: Oh in the area. Yeah.
PH: I think that’s what it said in one of the Lincoln books later.
MC: Yeah. I heard a bit of a story that there was one in Arboretum. I don’t know whether you ever heard that story?
PH: Yeah.
MC: Apparently it could be still there.
PH: Yeah. Well, that’s what I say. It could be when Sister Swan’s was bombed which I saw.
MC: Oh yes.
PH: Them come out. And I think —
SH: There was one on —
PH: I think that was about four o’clock in the afternoon. It was, it was quite.
SH: There was one off Lindum hill you said, wasn’t there?
PH: That was an aeroplane. That was where the French teacher at the High School was killed.
MC: Oh yes. It crashed in to —
PH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PH: And that was very sad.
MC: It was Greetwell wasn’t it? Greetwell steps.
SH: Yeah.
PH: Greetwell steps. Greestone.
SH: Greestone.
MC: Greestone.
PH: Greestone Stairs. Yeah. And that saw the plane come down on St Matthias Church, and as I say his mum and I used to stand on this blanket box. When my dad found out he said, ‘You’ll get your —’ so and so, ‘Heads knocked off one of these times. We waited, because we used to hear the planes go out, and then sort of try and count them in again, but it was just something that you did.
MC: Did you ever hear about what happened to that German aircraft that dropped those bombs?
PH: No.
MC: Oh. Yeah.
PH: No, but then, because there was talk at one time that they thought it was an English plane who had dropped it. And —
MC: I was actually talking to somebody today about it and he said that German aircraft were shot down near, just south of Lincoln.
PH: In one of the villages. Yeah.
SH: What was that one you told me about where it was up near the common and they, you, they thought it was some Americans.
PH: Oh no. We [pause] it was, would it be with Neville? I’d got relations living at a farm on the Branston Road not far from where Sue lives now. And we decided one day to go and visit Aunt Nell who’d already got I think six or seven children of her own. She’d got two sets of twins and that, and she always made us so welcome. And it was when there was a crossing at Durham Ox if you’re —
SH: Pub.
PH: You’re new to Lincoln you wouldn’t know that but —
SH: This side of Pelham Bridge.
PH: Yeah. it was a crossing —
MC: I do remember it.
PH: Over there and there were steps that you had to go up to get over and we’d been to Aunt Nell’s and had our lunch with them. We thought we’d better be getting home again. Mum would be worried. And of course we walked, and not getting on the bus and we were pushing John in the pushchair, and all of a sudden we saw these two aeroplanes coming over and it was, it turned out actually by what I read later that it was two Americans practicing stunts or whatever. And of course they immediately closed the gates, so we thought well how are we going to get home because we wanted to be the other side? And there we had to pull up John in his pushchair up the step, across the thing, down the steps again. And when we got home near Baggeholme, we were going along Coningsby Street I think it was, mother was having a fit because she’d seen the plane as well and she’d seen them come out with their, on their parachutes thinking they were Germans. You see, it was, it’s things like that, that sort of worried you and after we were bombed and when my dad had gone abroad he went to North Africa I think most of the time especially if the sirens went mum had us kids under the stairs.
MC: So your dad was in the Air Force right through the war was he?
PH: Not till the beginning but he was there, but not until the latter part of the war. He went to North Africa. But —
SH: When were you with nan on the milk when they —
PH: Oh, that was when I first left school at fourteen and mother had been, she was working at the Co-op and delivering the milk down Tower Estate and Greetwell Road. We used to take two big churns to the prison. Just let in the first gate. Not in any more. They wouldn’t. Just went in and signed them off to the chappy in the office. So I have been in Lincoln Prison [laughs] And then we would go up Queensway. Down. Do the St Giles area, come back up and go around Eastgate and, and then go along the finish on Winnowsty Terrace where there used to be Mr Flint in a little shop. And he always, we always used to stop and talk to him. Take his milk in and he would probably give us a drink, and, but there was also further along Winnowsty Terrace was Mrs Hoyes, I think they called her. Well, she smoked like a trooper, she did. And of course mother smoked in those, you were encouraged to smoke in the war years, and Mrs Hoyes gave mum and of course I would be fourteen, fifteen. That’s because I went nursing when I was nearly sixteen to this hospital. And she said, ‘Do you want a cigarette?’ I said, ‘No.’ Mother said, ‘No, she doesn’t want it.’ She said, ‘Oh go on she said have one.’ And then of course I started smoking. And then when I was —
MC: You were only fourteen then.
PH: I was only fourteen. Not quite fifteen. And then when I was in the Dairy office one day, and I can’t remember what his name was, the boss there then, but he was a Scotsman, and he was a, quite a tartar, you know but I always got on well with him. Mum and I did. And he said, ‘Do you know your daughter’s taken down those with that cigarette?’ She said, ‘Well,’ she said, ‘I’ve tried to stop her and she won’t.’
MC: Anyway, I did when I was, later on. I didn’t, I think I was twenty one when I had Carol, my elder daughter. Twenty seven when I had Sue. So it was, I think I stopped when I was twenty one, and I had, was expecting Carol.
SH: The milk float. You must tell about Dolly the horse.
PH: Yeah, well —
SH: It wasn’t —
MC: Oh, it was a horse drawn.
SH: It was horse drawn.
PH: Yeah. To start with. And then we got promoted. When we went to do the Hykeham run we got promoted to an electric van. But no, oh Dolly when we stopped at Mr Flint’s shop especially if it was a warm day Dolly would stand there quite content for a while and then all of a sudden she’d cross her legs like that and the next thing you know she was down in the floor. And she’d put her hip out. So I had to, mother said, ‘Go and ring the boss at the stable,’ which was on Newland then. And he said, ‘Why? What’s the matter?’ I said, ‘She’s put her hip out.’ And so he said, ‘Oh, not again.’ And he sent this great big horse, a stallion type horse. Well, there used to be cross, railway crossing on High Street. Where the one is now and one further down at St Marks.
MC: St Marks. Yeah.
PH: And, and this Dolly was a beautiful little horse really, but if you got stuck between [laughs] I mean I was fourteen, just taking notice of lads and that, and the RAF cadets who were going to the school on Wragby Road used to be pulling our leg and that shouting and saying we’re going up Lindum Hill to go. To go there. And I used to hate it. And I bet if we got stuck at those crossings, if the horse didn’t stop to wee at the first crossing she did at the second and I used to be so embarrassed. And I used to, I was so pleased when we eventually got an electric van to go to Hykeham. But —
SH: What happened the day of the stallion though?
PH: Oh, I know. Well, I know. I was naughty really. When I, when I rang, when I rang him he said, ‘Why don’t you, why don’t you want that?’ Well, I forget what we called it. The bigger one. I said, ‘Well, it’s got five legs [laughs] And as I say —
SH: And that used to embarrass you with —
PH: Oh, it used to embarrass me. I was so pleased when we finished with the horses though.
SH: But, what happened on Lindum Hill one day with the cart.
PH: Well, we used to come down Lindum hill with the cart. You know the milk, and the horse.
MC: Yeah.
PH: And he’d come down there and there was the police in the tub one day and you know you can’t always control a horse, and it sometimes we would go around it and in to Silver Street, go through the Bow and down High Street to go to the Dairy to unload and then we had to come all the way back to go to Newland to stable the horse. Put the horse away and that sort of thing. And one day we were going down and of course High Bridge was a bit more like that. The cobbles on it in those days, and Dolly slipped on it and of course mum went off the side. Took the reins with her and I was just left helpless. There was nothing to hold on to or anything. Anyway, mum soon scrabbled back, and I forget what it was she said back to me but I just said, ‘Where have you been?’
SH: Probably swore knowing Gladys —
MC: So the dairy was on Boultham Park Road then.
PH: It was the end of Dixon street. Yes.
MC: On Boultham Park Road.
PH: On the corner of Boultham Park Road. Yes.
MC: Yeah. It was there for a long time wasn’t it?
PH: We used to be unloading on the thing there.
MC: But the stables were on Newland.
PH: The stables on Newland. I think, is it a garage now, Sue?
SH: I don’t know. It could be.
PH: You know, just as you get, you know that awkward bend.
SH: Yeah.
PH: What we called Buckingham Palace. It’s the council thing.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PH: You just go round and it’s on —
SH: It could be. Yeah.
PH: On there. I think it’s a garage.
SH: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Oh, I know. Yeah. I know.
PH: It’s placed in that street you can come down.
MC: A filling station.
SH: Yeah.
PH: Yeah.
MC: And car hire place.
SH: But didn’t the policeman in the, in the tub tell you to —
PH: Oh, and the policeman said to Mam, it was, Dolly kept going on and he come running after her and she was trying to pull Dolly up and he said, ‘Didn’t you see my hands holding up to stop you?’ She said, ‘Yes, but —’ she said, ‘The horse had a different idea,’ she said, ‘And if you want me to take that all back up there,’ she said, ‘Here’s the reigns. You do it.’ And I mean things like that happened to us, you know but it was.
SH: But there’s a little tale against that because my, on my dad’s side, my dad’s dad was a policeman.
PH: Policeman.
SH: Who used to stand in the, in the —
MC: In the tub.
SH: Directing traffic in the bottom. That could have been grandad, couldn’t it?
PH: Yeah. In his young days. Yeah.
SH: In his younger days. Prior to them —
PH: Yeah. I mean, and that as school kids we knew all the policemen there. There was, there was Billy Harrison which was my husband’s dad.
SH: He was the first policeman in Lincoln who was mounted?
PH: Bill Steveson, and I forget what the third one but they were sort of a gang of three those three, and they always had a joke and a laugh, and you know telling us to behave ourselves and that sort of thing, and you know you really knew them, and Bill Steveson lived in Eastbourne Street. Billy and Katie, Ron’s mum and dad they lived in Rosemary Lane, because during the war the fire station was at the top, on Monks Road. You know, do you know where the police station was, the magistrates court used to be?
MC: Oh, I know where the fire station was. Yeah.
PH: Yeah, and It was there and he lived in a police house at Rosemary Lane because wartime, Billy was attached to the Fire Service as well. When sirens went they had to go out for both, you see. And, and I forget where the other one lived, but and then eventually my husband when he came out the Navy he, he joined the Police but I think his dad wanted one of the boys. They had four sons. And well one, Ray the eldest was in the Air Force. Doug was on trains going up and down the country, which was quite a dangerous job during the war. And Ron and Jed both went in, well Jed was Navy, Ron was Fleet Air Arm because he was on aircraft carriers. And as I say she was quite bitter at one point because one of her sister’s boys got off, only son and her four sons all went on dangerous jobs. Yeah. There was a lot of that during the war.
PH: There was. There was indeed. Yeah. That’s right.
MC: Going back to the air raid a bit. You talked about the people who were killed. How much damage was actually done? You know, buildings wise.
PH: Well, the, that building was destroyed and Mr [Medd’s] house was. And Baggeholme Road all our front windows went out, opposite the school. And as I say there was this old maid across the road from the Crown Pub in Baggeholme Road. There was damage in John and Thomas street. I always get them mixed up. It was John or Thomas.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PH: I always get, I mean I’ve lived in Lincoln all my life, and I still get mixed up with those two. And as I say Mr Brown in Avondale Street.
MC: Because they’ve changed the name of the Crown haven’t they?
PH: Yes. I believe they have.
MC: The Birdcage or something.
SH: Yeah. Something like that.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
PH: Well, I, I remember the, I say when I was, it was before I went nursing so I’d be probably be getting on for sixteen and the mothers used to invite lads, crews and I saw them.
MC: Yeah. You had all the boys chasing you did you?
PH: [laughs] and they used to say to my brothers, ‘Now, if you see any of them —' they would, at Christmas time particularly, ‘If you see any of them wandering around —’ because things were shutting up there wasn’t really many shops open.
SH: Aircrew this is.
PH: Aircrew.
SH: Yeah.
PH: And they, she said, ‘Ask them if they’d like to come and have a meal with us. They’re very welcome.’
MC: Well, you’ve answered my question because I was going to ask you a question. Did you had any contact with any of the airmen, and obviously you did.
PH: Yeah. I knew one of them whose name’s on there. Well, I knew. I can’t remember the crew, but I knew one of them who was killed.
MC: One of the names on the walls. Yeah. Bless you.
PH: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
PH: He, they came down and, oh and they said to Neville and to his friend Ronald, ‘Just tell them there’s no hanky panky.’ [laughs] My mum was straight to them.
SH: Who was the lady at the pub who was, you said was quite feisty?
PH: Well, she didn’t live, she lived in one of the houses not far but from where we were, but she used to play the piano in the pub, and of course we took some of these lads to the pub and then they come down to other times when they could and I got quite close to this lad on, who was killed. But you know it, it was heart breaking really.
MC: So where was he stationed?
PH: He was on Lancasters, and he was a rear gunner and I’m not sure where. He never said exactly where he was stationed.
MC: No.
PH: Because there were so many little airfields around, so —
MC: There was.
PH: I don’t know whether he met up with the rest of the crew. But there was one of them I remember, Eric was very, very badly burned and his, his face, and it was quite hard to look at him sometimes. Especially when he was young and that. But they, they were they were really were nice lads and as I say there was, we all had a laugh and this Doll Curtis, as she was called used to play the piano and they used to love to go there. But I remembered when I went with them because you weren’t supposed to. I think you were supposed to be eighteen in those days. I think things were relaxed though there, and I went, I mean. Mother saw to it I only had light drinks or something. Probably a, I’m trying to think what they called that drink. It was the, it was the wartime drink. I know I mean, I still often just have a sherry shandy. I don’t drink much else. But as I say it was such a nice way of all the mothers getting together to try and give these lads something, you know. To —
MC: Yeah.
PH: To really —
MC: So you were fifteen, sixteen. What sort of entertainment was there then? You talked about the pub.
PH: Well, there was film. There was film. There was the central, which is where that opposite St Swithins Church which is now a café isn’t it? Tom, I think they call it.
SH: Going up Broadgate.
PH: Going up Broadgate and to turn —
SH: Left as you come round the Garden of Rest.
MC: Oh yes. Yeah.
PH: Because it used to be the Savoy which is now —
MC: Yeah.
PH: More than one cinema thing isn’t it? The Plaza which was on Newland. What was the one in the market, Sue? You won’t remember I know.
SH: I don’t remember.
PH: But I think we talked about it. I can’t remember because my brother and his friends they were devils to us girls when we went out because if we went and, and of course with my dad being abroad I think mother had a thing about keeping me out of mischief, and that, and she was always telling Neville to watch out what I was doing, and who I was with. And —
MC: Did you go away nursing then when you went?
PH: I went to Osgodby.
MC: Oh, you said.
PH: Which was a fever hospital. And it was so hard as, as I say. There was no, there was one bus a week which was Friday night I believe to go in to Market Rasen. Well, you know how much, well although there used to be a cinema. As you came, it used to be where, near the King’s Head goes back into a, as you just go in to the village, and the cinema used to be there, and I forget what it is now because it’s been a long time since I’ve been to. But no. We worked darned hard there and with being the new ones, and of course it was mainly measles, scarlet fever.
MC: And you lived there did you?
PH: And we were there. Yeah. I was there and we just had one day off a week and we did all that for four pounds something and buy our own shoes, tights, and thermometers if you broke one, and I was a dab hand at doing that, and she [unclear] on the floor. And she was a bit of a tartar the Irish matron I remember. But she was very, she was just like a big battleship coming down the ward and she’d got this blue dress with this high collar on, and this little lacy cap with a bow under her chin. And she was married to an RAF man who, I think we saw him about twice all the time I was there and she had two children. But she had one of the nurses who looked after the children while she did. But we always said she was ruled by the moon, because she could be so lovely at one time, and then another day she was a devil. Yeah, she. Nothing was right and that. And she, when she went over to Ireland, she often used to bring two Irish girls back and you know get them used to it. But I made the biggest mistake though just going to a small hospital. But I did try to get in to Lincoln at sixteen, and they wouldn’t entertain you until you were eighteen there. And of course with not having a High School education that didn’t help either. But it was just so and I always remember mother when I came home one day, sort of saying, ‘Oh, your hands, my duck,’ she said, ‘What have you been doing?’ And you know, it was just hard work.
MC: It was hard work. Yeah.
PH: Yeah. And it was an atmosphere I was unused to, you see. Right in the heart of the country, and even the quietness sort of was strange to me.
MC: Especially after being brought up in the city.
PH: Yes. In the city all my, the time. But no it, it just makes you wonder how you do get through these times some times.
MC: Yeah. But looking back. Looking back good times generally.
PH: Well, as I say it —
MC: Strange times with the war.
PH: Strange times and we had to grow up quickly. This is was what I tried. There was no making excuses for us that, you know if we’d done anything wrong or anything like that, you had to get up and carry on and do things. And I remember when we thought the war had moved or stopped in Europe. We took the blackouts down. And then we had the siren because we could hear doodlebugs going over. I can’t remember any dropping in Lincoln, but we heard them, and we heard them stop.
MC: Did you really? That’s interesting.
PH: And of course there’s mum and I trying to put the blackout [laughs] I mean it wouldn’t have mattered. I mean it was those things that you laughed at, and —
MC: Rationing?
PH: Rationing. Well, as I say we all had perfect figures in those days. There was no [laughs] there was no getting fat. And I remember my father sending some bananas home thinking he was sending us a treat, and they were as black as night when they arrived. We didn’t think much to them. But, but we, I suppose we were healthy. We got to a certain age you would get orange juice, the young babies and there was cod liver oil which they used to shove down.
MC: Yeah. At school. Yeah. Yeah.
PH: But as I say, we didn’t get a lot of sweets and that. And there was just a sweet ration.
MC: Yes.
PH: And I can’t remember what it was, but I mean butter wasn’t anything, sugar wasn’t. If every, if all the family, as I say there was four or five of us in the family, so when dad was home so you didn’t get much to go around five people if they all took sugar and that. So we learned not to have sugar, and no it, it’s a different world. And I remember —
MC: But during wartime, you know —
PH: Yeah.
MC: Growing up. I mean especially growing up as a child in wartime it’s a bit —
SH: Was there a time, did you mention to me about when the German planes used to follow the river?
PH: Yeah.
SH: Which was just beyond the newsagents.
PH: Yeah. Neville.
SH: Did you say there was a plane crash there.
PH: Because they were coming to the works you see. And Brian and Neville had gone camping down the thing, by the water thing. And Brian had a fringe. he was the younger one and he, they came flying in one night, this fringe stood up on his head and he said, ‘The damned Germans were following us.’ And then of course they were following the river up to the works.
MC: Yeah. They quite often did that.
SH: Didn’t they get, did you see a plane being recovered out of the river? Was that you?
PH: No. I saw an airman.
SH: An airman.
PH: Saw them taking an airman out. He’d gone in at Brayford.
MC: Oh really.
PH: He’d brought down. And of course you know what kids are. All nosy and wanting to go to see what was going on and they were getting this young airman out. But —
MC: Yeah. Thank you, Pat. That’s, that’s been very interesting.
PH: But as I say, just let show you this about High Bridge?
MC: So you said you met at the British Legion. Your husband.
PH: We met at the British Legion. Yeah. Because him and Jed were on, not on embarkation, the one where they’re finishing, and they had to go back to then be signed out the services for so long.
MC: This was at the back end of the war.
PH: Yeah. I think it says that here.
MC: Yeah. The back end of the war.
PH: But he was, they were called up at eighteen, and by twenty he was in the Pacific. And they, he was at the, one of the escort things. He was, went into the Japanese harbour and in that thing he said it just looked as if there was thousands of ships in the harbour for the signing. And then they had been sent on to some island to pick up civilians who had been prisoners of the Japanese to take them back to Australia.
MC: So when did you meet him?
PH: I met him at the British Legion.
MC: You said.
PH: I happened to go in —
MC: When was that?
PH: With somebody else. The top of Waterside.
MC: When? That would be — ?
PH: That would be 1940. The end of ‘46.
MC: Ah late ’46.
PH: ’47. We were married in ’48.
MC: That was my next question.
PH: Yeah. We were married in 1948 and as I say we got on ever so well together and, you know, and then when he came out for up to me having Carol he was in the Police force. Then of course with being in the Navy and away from here he had a different outlook he had on life and he said it was a lot of petty discipline in those days. You know stopping workmen. You know we used to have a lot of bicycle men going to Robeys, coming up Dixon street, and you were, they were encouraged to stand in a doorway and just grab somebody who didn’t stop, that sort of thing. And I’m afraid it got to Ron a bit. He said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘I’ve seen all too much,’ he said, ‘To be doing that.’ And of course his dad did twenty two years with him being wartime. He had to go over his normal time that he would have done.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
PH: So [pause] But no it, and he just mentions having a dance partner Fifi somewhere [laughs]
SH: He could have stayed —
PH: We weren’t married then.
MC: No. No.
SH: If he’d stayed in Australia we wouldn’t be here now.
PH: No. He wouldn’t, he wouldn’t have minded going back to Australia. Ron wouldn’t.
SH: Apparently, he was too young. He was old enough to go to war.
PH: Yeah.
SH: But too young to get the rum ration.
PH: The rum ration. That rattled him a bit.
SH: But all his mates used to make sure that he got the rum ration on the —
PH: Yeah. I think they used to share it out a bit. But they don’t get it now do they? They stopped it. Yeah. But he said it always rankled a bit that, the thing. And that was his, that was his badge.
MC: Oh, this is a picture of his —
PH: Yeah.
MC: HMS Ruler.
PH: Yeah. There’s a picture of that.
MC: A picture of his ships badge.
PH: And it’s just a small escort one, but they had, they did have planes on it.
MC: Oh yeah. A carrier was it.
PH: Yeah.
MC: An aircraft carrier. Yes.
PH: Thought I’d put it. These are all the ships that were in the war and of course the Ruler was an American ship.
MC: Oh, was it?
PH: It was one that they’d sent us. And I can’t see. Now, where is it. I thought I’d must have marked it up, I must.
MC: So this picture you’re showing me of HMS Ruler is, is, Ron was actually on that during the signing of the peace treaty.
PH: The peace treaty. Yeah.
MC: To go back.
PH: They went as escort to the bigger ones. Yeah.
MC: That’s fascinating.
PH: And he said, the one bit that I found in that story of it was when they went for training. He was called up and he was given the choice of either, he found out later that the choice was to go in the Services or down the mines. And he said he was so glad that he said that he would have liked to have gone in the RAF because he was working at the railway before on, I don’t know what they called it but it was something like Morse Code, and that sort of thing, and he would have, but he wasn’t A1. I think he’d got a heart murmur or something there.
MC: That’s alright.
PH: Have you ever heard of Slapton Sands in Devon?
MC: I have. Yes.
PH: That’s a book if you’d like to take it and read it, of what actually happened and —
SH: And a lot of Americans got killed.
MC: Oh right. Yes. I have heard of that story. Yes.
PH: Yeah. We went down.
MC: Yes, and I do know the story. Yes.
PH: I forget. Is it a tank that’s on the sands now?
SH: Yeah. There’s a tank.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. When the Americans —
PH: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Were rehearsing. Yeah.
PH: A lot of them were killed. And you can actually see the bullet holes in the village that they cleared. I mean it must have been dreadful for somebody to come along and say you’ve got to get out of your home because they want to - —
MC: Take it over.
PH: Take it over.
SH: I didn’t realise that about dad saying that about the Kamikaze pilot.
PH: Yeah. He said —
SH: [unclear]
PH: No. Your dad said very little about it actually. It was just things that he would laugh about. He did say when they went back to Australia the Australians, they got lots of invitations to go in to the Blue Mountains and that sort of thing, but he said, of course he said, ‘Being my age I preferred to go out with the lads not the Blue Mountains.’ And he said they were invited to these little party things at night. Probably like little dances, but he said it was so funny because he said they were at one end of the room and the Australian families and that were sat at the other. He said, it was like they mustn’t talk to us. He said it was a bit strange but he said he wouldn’t have minded settling in Australia. And one of his mates did. Nearly broke his mother’s heart. She lived in Montague Terrace and I can’t remember what her [pause] that one opposite Rosemary Lane.
MC: Yeah.
PH: It must have been dreadful, the, to think your son didn’t want to come home wouldn’t it?
MC: Yes. It would, yeah.
PH: Yeah.
MC: It would indeed. Yeah.
PH: After that.
MC: Well, thank you Pat that’s been most interesting.
PH: Well, I hope that was alright for you.
MC: Thank you for taking the time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Pat Harrison
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-11-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisonH191111, PHarrisonH1901
Format
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00:47:58 audio recording
Description
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Pat Harrison was born in Lincoln and was the only girl of four children. Her father joined the Royal Air Force after serving as an air raid warden. Pat remembers the arrival of evacuees in Lincoln and also recalls occasions when bombing resulted in fatalities and injuries. She was witness to several friendly aircraft crashes and also makes reference to a Hampden crashing onto the Greestone Stairs and also the use of V-1s. As a young girl, Pat remembers helping her mother with Co-op milk deliveries by horse drawn cart and later using an electric van. She also remembers various buildings, cinemas, fire station, etc. in Lincoln. Pat recalls the bodies of German aircrew being recovered from Brayford pool. In later life, Pat became a nurse and met her husband at Lincoln’s British Legion Club. He had served in the Royal Navy and joined the Police force after the war. They had two daughters.
Contributor
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Steve Baldwin
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Coverage
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Civilian
Language
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eng
Temporal Coverage
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1941-07
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
crash
evacuation
Hampden
home front
love and romance
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2053/33663/PStrattenG2101.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2053/33663/AStrattenG210722.2.mp3
edf3517ceb815e06abf411f025405566
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stratten, Gwyneth
G Stratten
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-07-22
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Stratten, G
Description
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An oral history interview with Gwyneth Sratten (b.1934). She worked at RAF Rauceby Hospital after the war.
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre on Thursday the 22nd of July 2021. The interviewee is Mrs Gwyneth Stratten and the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is taking place at Mrs Stratten’s home in Lincoln. Also in the house is Mr Stratten. Ok, Gwyneth, thank you very much for doing this interview. What I’d like today, start at the beginning and so tell me a bit, when and where were you born?
GS: I was born in London and I lived there all through the war only leaving in 1949 when my parents thought that we were going to be having trouble with Russia and they didn’t want to be in London if we had another war and that we moved to the country.
MC: Yeah. So, what did your parents do? What were they —
GS: My father. Well, he had to work in a factory during the war but other than that he was always a self-employed electrician and my mother was just mum [laughs]
MC: Did you have any siblings?
GS: Yes. I had a brother who served in the Army during the war and he was, finished up in Germany. Again, he was in the military police and he came out in 1949. I’ve no others.
MC: Yeah. So, your early schooldays. Do you remember much about your early schooldays?
GS: I can, I have actually written about my school days.
MC: Yeah. So, you obviously enjoyed them.
GS: Which, no —
MC: Oh right.
GS: Which I found very useful when my children, my grandchildren at the local school were working on what life was like for children during the war. So my grandchildren delightedly went off with my identity card and my ration book and all the information I had. So, it was quite useful.
MC: Yeah. So, you were born when? Sorry. What year?
GS: I was born in 1934.
MC: ‘34. Oh, right. So, you were, at the outbreak of war you were quite old. Relatively, you know. You weren’t —
GS: Well, yeah. When the war broke out I was —
MC: ‘39. Oh, you were five year old. Yes. Yeah.
GS: I was five years old.
MC: Yeah. So you, you remember quite a bit about the war.
GS: I do. There are certain anecdotal things which I think of will go with the subject we’re speaking about now. I remember in nineteen, I think it was 1944, my mother was a great one for introducing me to like the theatre and museums and all that kind of thing and on this particular day she took me to one of the museums at Kensington. I don’t remember which one. And we were in this particular gallery and there was just she and I there looking at the things when we heard all this noise and a party of seven men in RAF uniform came in accompanied by some very pretty ladies in all their nice summer finery. But the thing that immediately hit you was that all the men were horribly disfigured. There was one young man there, he had no face and no hair or anything. And they were running one of these tubes from his arm to build a new nose. And I mean a ten year old looking at that. But I was always very, sort of, it didn’t shock me. I just looked at them and my mother quickly drew me away and said, ‘I’ll tell you in a minute what that lad is.’ And she told me and she said they were the pilots that had been injured during the war and they were being treated at a place called East Grinstead.
MC: East Grinstead.
GS: And that’s where it first entered my life.
MC: Yeah.
GS: Which was fantastic.
MC: Yeah.
GS: And I never ever [emphasis] forgot it. And then my next experience was I had to go and have facial surgery myself and I went to University College Hospital in London in 1984 and I was due to see a professor there who had got this special programme going for people who had had cleft palates. And I sat in his office waiting for him and on the shelf was a cabinet and it was full of instruments used in plastic surgery and it was MacMillan forceps err McIndoe forceps, McIndoe this. McIndoe that. And I thought that name and I remembered back to then. And then in 1981 I went to Rauceby and discovered that again I was looking at the Guinea Pigs. That’s what those young men had been.
MC: Yeah. They were. Yeah. Of course. Yeah.
GS: And then I had the great honour of meeting a big group of them when they came to Rauceby for the reunion and that was one of the most moving moments of my life because on the day they came we really did put on a really good show for them. And the widow of the man who had been the [pause] I’m just, he had been the plastic surgeon for the unit there all through the war and his name was Squadron Leader Fenton Braithwaite and he went on to become a wing commander and that fascinated me. You know, that there was three jumps in my life and as I say when I met these men they still bore a lot of their scars but the widow of this surgeon had sent down some photograph albums. When the patients were brought in to the hospital they were photographed immediately and then as the treatment progressed photographs were taken on each occasion so that the men themselves could see how they were progressing. And also, it was there for the surgeons. And anyway, we, I remember sitting with somebody else and we were looking and we were both crying just looking at these terribly injured men. But on that day that they came we put a notice in the room where the whole thing was happening to say if anyone thought that they were featured in those books if they came to see me I could arrange for them to view the books and have a look if they wanted to. And one man came over and said, ‘Yes, I —' well several came and this particular one said, ‘I would very much like to see them.’ I said, ‘Right, come on. You come in my office.’ And I said, ‘Would you like me to stay with you or do you, would you like to be on your own?’ He said, ‘I would prefer if you would stay here.’ So I stopped with him and he leafed through and all of a sudden he found the picture he wanted. Oh, I’ve gone all [pause] And he said he’d spent, ‘I’ve laid a ghost.’ And I looked at him and he said, ‘I wanted to see my hands when I had fingers.’ And sure enough he had no fingers.
MC: Yeah.
GS: And he said, ‘I’m so grateful for seeing this.’ And with that he just got, got up and went back to the, to the room. But that whole day it was very very emotional. These men were all, in my eyes, heroes. Can you turn off? I must —
[recording paused]
MC: Yeah. Well, let’s go back to, we’ll carry on with that in a minute. Just go back because you were five when war broke out.
GS: Yeah.
MC: So, during the war were you, you stayed in London or did you get evacuated?
GS: I remained in London until 1944 when the VJ bombers were coming over and I don’t know if you had experience of them but they were terrifying.
MC: The V-1s.
GS: The V-1. V-2s.
MC: Yeah.
GS: And my parents decided that I should be evacuated so off I went to stay with a relation in Bristol. And I was only there five weeks and I wrote home and said to my, and said to my mother, ‘Mum, I want to come home. If you don’t come and fetch me I’m going to walk home.’ [laughs] My mother brought me home and two days after I came home a mine was dropped in the garden up the road and that was the nearest anything ever came. But —
MC: And whereabouts in London was this?
GS: I lived out at near Edgeware.
MC: Oh right. Yeah.
GS: So, but I have many many memories of the war.
MC: Yeah. So, when you left school, so you went to school in London.
GS: No. I left there in ’49.
MC: Oh yeah.
GS: And moved down to Wales and I went to school down there.
MC: Yeah. So, when you left school what was your, what did you do?
GS: Well, when I left school I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I won a scholarship to Art College and this is where the miserable bit comes in. I had no financial backing whatsoever and in the end I discovered it wasn’t going to work. I had no means of making money or anything. I had to give it up. So then I went and joined the Civil Service which was the most boring work I’ve ever done in my life. And it was through being in the Civil Service drove me in to the Army [laughs]
MC: So, when did you join the Army?
GS: I first joined in 1951. I joined the Territorial Army. That’s where I became a qualified radar technician. And I left that and joined the regular Army in ’55 and it was the best thing I ever did in my life. It was, it was the making of, I felt that my life actually started when I was twenty one. It was wonderful.
MC: So how long did you spend in the Army?
GS: I had four years in the regular Army and I went from private to sergeant in fifteen months. So, I must, must have been doing something right.
MC: Something right. Absolutely. Yeah.
GS: And I was also, I did an exam. They were talking about allowing the military policewomen to do SIB work which would, I would have loved. And I took, we did an exam which I passed with ninety eight percent but then of course they posted me to Germany didn’t they? [laughs] So I landed up in Germany where I met my husband and where foolishly I got married [laughs] So, yeah. That was my military experience. But the rest of it was, RAF experience was just as a service wife.
MC: Oh. Oh, yeah. Ok.
GS: And I could write a book about that.
MC: So, so, what brought you to Rauceby then?
GS: We were living at, my husband had been at Cranwell and my, my mother had just died in 1980 and I went through a really bad emotional time and our marriage was a bit shaky and my husband came home and he said, ‘They’re advertising for a librarian at Rauceby.’ And we all knew about Rauceby. Rauceby Hospital.
MC: Yeah.
GS: He said, ‘Why don’t you apply for it?’ I said, ‘No. They won’t give it to me. Why would they give it to me?’ So, I went for the interview and I think there were about seven of us went for the interview and I came home and I said, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘I just made them laugh.’ I said. I knew I wasn’t going to get the job. And we were having our tea and the phone rang and a voice said, ‘Oh hello, Mrs Stratten. Would you be interested in starting work —’ whatever. I couldn’t believe it. And that was giving me my dream job. It was perfect. I was in an old Victorian building. I was among medical things which I was fascinated by, you know. It was, it was just, just perfect.
MC: Yeah.
GS: I was able to, well I was involved in so many things in the hospital apart from the library. I joined the League of Friends. I used to do, oh I did several seminars and exhibitions and all sorts of things. It was the most wonderful job I’ve ever had in my life and as I’ve said before I would have done it for nothing only I didn’t let them know that. But it was a wonderful job.
MC: So, did you get to meet any of the patients there?
GS: I worked with patients as well.
MC: Oh, you worked with, oh I see, yeah. Yeah. Of course, you would do I suppose.
GS: Yes. I mean, you will find that there are things on the internet that talk rubbish about Rauceby. Well, I know for a fact I went through all the records. There were very very few examples of any cruelty to patients and when you read what all these people on this group that people that worked at Rauceby everyone said what a wonderfully happy place it was to work. It was. It was just lovely.
MC: So, what sort of hospital was it then?
GS: Well, it started out in 1902 as an asylum and initially the patients were housed in Grantham while they built the hospital and they moved in in 1902. And of course, it was wonderful. They’d got electric lights which I mean that was unheard of. Albeit the fact it was forty watt bulbs and it was only allowed to have it on at certain times of the day but it, it was just the whole, the whole concept of it. The whole building had been built with the patients in mind so that all the wards faced to the south which was wonderful. And of course, during the war they had, there were two verandas either side of the hospital. These were used for the tubercular patients and I’ve got a lovely picture of some on there with their nurses.
MC: Because weren’t some of the burns patients treated there as well?
GS: The burns patients were not treated in the hospital because in nineteen oh, 1928 Patrick, no not Patrick. Norman Henderson came to Rauceby as the medical superintendent. Then in nineteen, hang on I’m just thinking of the date. Nineteen. Where are we? Oh yes. The Mental Health Act changed in 1930 and it said that some patients could be day patients. They didn’t need to be, you know in all the time so they built a new little private hospital sort of thing away from the main building and that was going to be for the day patients. Well, they all moved in and then of course the war was coming along and the Air Ministry realised that they were building all these airfields they’d better provide some [laughs] some medical care. The hospital at Rauceby wasn’t big enough so they said right we have the day hospital at Rauceby and they moved the hospital from Cranwell. Moved it into Rauceby and they built two operating theatres in there. And then of course as things went on a little bit more it was realised they were going to need the whole hospital. So, on the 20th of April 1940 there were five hundred and twenty three patients with all their trappings. Their beds and everything were moved out and moved off to other asylums around the country and at the same time the RAF were moving in and kitting out the wards and they did the whole changeover in forty eight hours. And by any standards it was considered a miracle of organisation.
MC: It's quite amazing.
GS: And then of course they then progressed to build bomb blast wards around the south facing wards and built the things they required for military operations.
MC: So, when, when did you get to meet McIndoe then? Was that later?
GS: I haven’t actually met Mc —
MC: Oh, I thought you did.
GS: I always wish, I would have loved to have shaken his hand. He was a remarkable man.
MC: Yes.
GS: And anyone you speak to that had anything to do with him would say, and he was knighted of course for his work and he was just so remarkable. I mean for instance when he had these patients at East Grinstead, when men in the RAF were in hospital they had to wear these awful uniforms like, they were sort of grey blue things and they had a red tie and they were hideous. But he said, ‘No. My patients will wear their uniforms. They have got to know that they are still the men they were inside.’
MC: Absolutely.
GS: Even though they were disfigured. Disfigured externally. And I thought for that time that was very very forward thinking and he was really a psychologist in the making. But I thought that was incredible.
MC: So, was it still an asylum when you got there? Or was it not?
GS: Well, the Mental Health Act changed so much over the years. The original Mental Health Act, I mean you read it and it would make your hair curl. It really would but improvements were gradually made and every time there was a change there was a big upheaval everywhere you know. No. Even in, in the comparatively short time that I was there I think it changed two or three times but each time there would be an improvement. And then of course we come to Enoch Powell. The MP. The dreaded Enoch Powell. He came to Rauceby on an inspection and he walked all round and they took him down to the farm. The hospital had its own farm. They took him down to the farm and he just stood there and the people that were with him said you could smell this weird smell and he said it was from the pigsties and he said, ‘That is not right having the pigsties smelling like that when there is a school nearby.’ And anyway, he went away and a fortnight later they were told they had to stop all farming. Just like that. Now, when you think you’ve got these people in a mental hospital the majority of which came from agricultural backgrounds so that kind of work came second nature to them. So, it was good therapeutically and it provided produce for the hospital and everything. So, these poor people, they were, said, ‘Right, you can’t do it anymore. All you can do now is sit in your chair, read a book or whatever.’ There was nothing and so he was not very popular.
MC: I can imagine.
GS: But the awful thing was that they found out that the smell didn’t come from the pigsties. The smell came from a blocked drain [laughs]
MC: But the farming, the farm never restarted.
GS: The farm never restarted.
MC: Oh shame.
GS: Yeah. They did keep some of the gardens going and within the hospital, in fact next door to my office we had the most glorious Edwardian conservatory which, I mean it was just magnificent and so some of the people, the patients that were able to could go in there and work on the plants and that. But to take away that without even considering that he was removing an essential part of those people’s lives was wrong.
MC: So, I mean there was one thing that somebody brought to my attention was called NYDN. Not Yet Diagnosed Neuropsychiatric. Did you ever, was that —
GS: Never. Never heard that.
MC: It was just something somebody mentioned to me about —
GS: No one never. No. I never heard that one.
MC: Never heard. I was going to say so, so, what, what prompted you to write the history?
GS: Well, as I say when I first went there I realised what I was in and I thought this is wonderful. Look at all these lovely old Victorian, Victorian fittings. I mean the interior of that building was to my mind fantastic. It was all these wonderful glazed tiles and the workmanship that had gone in to it. Great big solid oak doors. It was just beautiful. They’d modernised the wards gradually over the years but a lot of the old tiles were there. It was so beautiful and so I wanted to know how they’d come to be there. That set me off trying to find out about the building of it and then, and it just went on from there and then we decided that we were coming up to one anniversary and somebody said to me, ‘Why don’t you organise a reunion for all the, for all the ex, for all the ex-staff.’ And I thought oh, that’s a good idea. Says she. And then of course we had to hunt out all these records. Well, when we were looking for the records we were finding all sorts of old photographs and documents and I said, ‘What’s going to happen when the hospital shuts?’ And the clerk said, ‘Well, they’ll just bin them.’ And I thought, ‘No, they will not.’ So, as I went round I gradually accumulated all these wonderful books and things and one day the porters came down to me. I’d got them on my, my list and they kept their eye open and they said, ‘Oh, Mrs Stratten we’ve found something we think you ought to see.’ So off we went in to the cellars of the hospital and there on a shelf were three great big leather bound books. And when I opened them the first two were all hand written and the third one had typed sheets taped into it and they were the patients’ records from the day the asylum opened.
MC: Goodness me.
GS: And would you believe I brought them all home and I read the lot. It was amazing. It gave me a real insight in to how the medical professional approached, well mad patients as they were.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
GS: And they were the majority of them were considered to be pauper lunatics.
MC: It wouldn’t work today.
GS: So, I thought well now these books they are not going to be dumped. So, I thought, right. I know what we’ll do. We’ll have a reunion and I will do an exhibition in the ballroom and we can have all that there and then afterwards I I will look to putting it all safely. So after we had the reunion which went very well indeed we [pause] I rang the Archives in Lincoln and said, ‘I’ve got something I think you ought see.’ And they came out and said, ‘Oh, thank goodness you’ve got to us.’ They said ‘already the leather is deteriorating’ so they were wrapped up very carefully and put in a box and taken away so I knew they were safe. Some of the books I hung on to because I thought I’ll hang on to it until we close the hospital. Then I’ll hand them over. So, and then that started the Rauceby connection as such and it just grew from there because everyone in the hospital knew what I was doing and as I say after the reunion of the patients I wrote a little book called, “Rauceby Reflections.” About the hospital which we sold nine hundred copies and there were copies sent to Australia, New Zealand, Canada. All. America they went. They went all over the place. I mean we sold them at two pounds each I think it was and the money went to the League of Friends so that they could buy Christmas presents for the patients. So it was win win win all the way round.
MC: That’s excellent. Really brilliant. Yeah. So —
[recording paused]
GS: How did we come to doing this RAF reunion? Yes.
MC: What’s, oh that was the RAF reunion.
GS: No. The one I’m talking about was, was the hospital reunion.
MC: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.
GS: And in actual fact we found a lady who had started work there in 1915 and I’ve got some lovely pictures of her and she was fantastic. Is that on or off?
MC: It’s on. Yeah. Go on. It’s —
GS: Anyway, after that while the, while the reunion was in progress I was in the ballroom and walking round and I noticed down in the corner where the little bit of the RAF bit was I could see these, I think there was two couples, a husband and wife couples taking great interest in it and they came over and they said, ‘Mrs Stratten, is there any chance that you could organise a reunion for the RAF?’ Well, I said, ‘Nothing’s impossible if you don’t try.’ But I said, ‘Just leave it with me.’ And at the same time this lady came over. Her name was Mrs Masters and she had been a nurse in the Burns Unit at Rauceby during the war. So, she came over and said, ‘Do you think we can do a reunion for the RAF?’ So, with that I got in, I had a colleague who was interested so he and Mrs Masters and I went up to see the manager at the hospital and said, ‘Look, we’ve had this request. Would you mind if, could we do it?’ And he was very obliging. He said, ‘Well, I don’t see why not. But you’re doing it. We’re not doing it.’ Right. And, but of course we had a bit of a problem there didn’t we? We hadn’t got any old books about, about RAF personnel. Nothing. The only thing we had was this photograph of RAF, RAF men in uniform. And we knew, we knew Norman Henderson who’d been the medical superintendent and who had been with the RAF during the war as a wing commander but that was all. So, of course then we had to try and trace all these men. I can’t remember how long it took me but I did finally get a name for everybody on that photograph.
MC: And how many was on it?
GS: I can’t remember.
MC: [unclear]
GS: Hang on. I’ve got the photograph here. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty one.
MC: Twenty one. And you got the names of all of them.
GS: And I got the names for all of them.
MC: That’s quite amazing. So, and then they call came to the reunion.
GS: No. No. No. No.
MC: Oh.
GS: Well, some of them had already passed away.
MC: Oh, I see. That was amazing.
GS: I mean, we were so chuffed. We got all the names and what was nice going into the future over the years we’ve had so many telephones calls and letters and things from people making enquiries about how they can find details of their grandfathers or their fathers or whatever. And this gentleman contacted us and said, ‘I never knew my father. He died just shortly after I was born. And —’ he said, ‘My mother always regrets that she never had a photograph of my father in his uniform.’ And he said, ‘I wondered if you’d got anything in your collection.’ Well, we looked through everything. Couldn’t find anything and then the name sort of rung a bell and I looked and there’s a picture of him on, in that big picture. And we, we did a copy of it and sent it off to him and we had the most wonderful letter back to say that his mother cried when she opened it.
MC: So, I mean it was, I mean in your history that you talk about the number of operations that were done.
GS: Yeah.
MC: You know, it’s quite, quite a busy hospital during the war then.
GS: Well, I mean, I can remember somebody saying that you could come out and you’d get up in the morning and there would be ambulances the full length of the drive bringing patients in and of course the other thing is in the Burns and Orthopaedic Unit you see these planes were going out on these bomber raids and things and sometimes there were accidents on the way out.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
GS: But more often than not it was coming home and then perhaps been injured during the flight. Or the big thing was getting frostbite on their hands. And so of course it was, it was working twenty four hours a day.
MC: A constant flow.
GS: A constant flow. And I know Mrs Masters said that, she said you would just clean up the operating theatre from one thing, she said you just had time to have a quick cup of tea and there was somebody else in there. She said it just didn’t stop.
MC: So you, this story you wrote after you’d finished at the hospital then or were you still at the hospital? I suppose you started it at the hospital.
GS: Well, I started it. I did write an edition of it some in 2000 I think it was. I was never really happy with it but in between 2000 and 2021 we had so much material come back because we’d sold so many books and people were then remembering things that I thought oh, but then when I was ill last year I couldn’t concentrate on anything. I was just so ill. And I sat here one day and I thought I’ve got to do something and I want to get this Rauceby thing sorted and I remembered that I had a half-finished manuscript somewhere. So I hoicked this out of the cupboard and went through it and then sat down and I concentrated solely on writing this one.
MC: Yeah.
GS: And it helped me. It just got me back to functioning. The only problem was that never having done such a thing before I had no means of getting people to tell me what I should be doing. I wanted someone to come and help me put things on the computer because I was doing things I’d never done before and it was awful. I just had literally no help at all and it was finally at the end I just got to the point where I found a publisher who was interested and I thought I’ve got to get someone just to help me to finish it off. A gentleman up the road is a IT specialist and I said, ‘Look, blow the Coronavirus thing,’ I said, ‘I’m over it and,’ I said, ‘You’re alright.’ And he came down and he sat for about an hour just, just tweaking it to get it right, you know. But I thought oh no. But then the publisher. They were in a state of chaos because when I’d initially put the book forward they were changing their operations. Then Corona came along. Half their, well most of their staff were working from home and I landed up with that version and then there’s a smaller version which is the one on, on Amazon with the code on it. And they published both [laughs] so you take your choice.
MC: Still the same story.
GS: Still the same story.
MC: Right.
GS: So, that, that one there I just that came out the blue really because —
MC: This was just of the war period.
GS: So, I thought no I’m, the other thing that made me cross as well I went to the museum at Hendon some years ago and that was very interesting. I even found something about my son’s activities on there. And I said to them, ‘Have you got anything on the medical side of, you know, hospitals and that during the war?’ ‘No. No.’ Anyway, I gave them a copy of the original little pamphlet thing which they were pleased with and then I was thinking when I was looking at all this I thought flip, I’m doing this for Bomber Command. I’m going to do another copy and send it down to Hendon because it should be there.
MC: Yeah. Quite right. Yeah. I mean in one story I was going to say that you mentioned that obviously Rauceby was nearly destroyed in a fire. In a fire.
GS: Well, yeah because that was after the war when it was still in, in being occupied by the RAF. Now, they had a beautiful ballroom there and of course during the war they used to have dances and that which was very popular in the local population. Especially the girls. And they would go down to the dances. Well, underneath the stage there was a room where they used to stack all the old bits of furniture. Anyway, this particular night they’d had the dance and it was over and somebody must have been in there and left a cigarette burning and the whole, because it was all pine panelling and the floor was all highly polished and it had great big, great big like stained windows. And the whole lot just went up. And fortunately, the wind was blowing in the right direction that it was, they could get everybody out but the fire just destroyed all the old ballroom and I’ve looked and looked and looked to find a picture and I did find one but it’s a very, very scrappy drawing of the ballroom.
MC: Yeah.
MC: But it gives you some indication of what it was like. But yes, and that was 1945 1946. Around then.
MC: Yeah. You say it was 1945.
GS: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah [pause] Yeah. Whit Monday 1945. Yeah. So when, so did you go back to Rauceby? You know for the closure when it was closed or —
GS: Well, I was one of the last people there.
MC: Oh, really.
GS: It was, it was awful really.
MC: So, were you still working there when it closed?
GS: 1997.
MC: Oh, you were still working there. Right.
GS: I was still working there. Yeah. And what I’m, I should have retired three years beforehand but I thought no I’ve started all these libraries and I want to be here at the end. So of course, we had to get everything out and on the last day I was officially opened my boss came from, from Pilgrim and there was somebody else there. And I, when I went to work I always used to dress formally because I thought you’re in the public eye, you know you dressed neatly but that morning I went to work wearing trousers and a jumper with a funny teddy bear on the front and my boss said to me, ‘Well, I’ve never seen you dressed like that.’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘It’s the last day. I’m doing it for that.’ Anyway, while they and the other two were doing something or other and they weren’t around I just quietly slipped away. But then it was arranged that I should go back there. Just after Christmas it was. No. No. Sorry. Just before Christmas and I should check, there was a big box in the hall where people used to put books in. So I, they said, ‘Would you go back just check see the books in there.’ There was nothing in there anyway. But it was very strange going in to a —
MC: Quite eerie.
GS: I had on the last day walked all around the hospital on my own.
MC: Yeah. Very emotional.
[recording paused]
MC: You was going to mention something else.
GS: Yeah.
MC: What was that?
GS: Well, when I talked to, when these people were coming in to see me at the hospital from our ex-RAF people several turned up wanting to have a look around and having a chat with me and this man came in and he’d got a book with him. And in the book he’d written, and he had been flying in the Hampden aircraft and apparently he’d had quite a hair raising time and they sent him in to the Psychiatric Department. And he’d only, he said, ‘I’d only been in about ten days and —' he said there was one of these big inspections that the RAF love having when bigwigs come down and all the rest of it. And he said, ‘There was this rather elderly sort of high-ranking officer there in charge and —’ he said, ‘He stood by my bed and said, “What’s this man in here for?” And they told him, you know. He said, “He looks perfectly fit to me. Discharge him. He can go back. Man up. Man up.” Anyway, they sent me back to my unit and then a week or two later my MO on the station sent me back to Rauceby.’ I thought that just shows the attitude of some of the —
MC: Did he say what his problem was?
GS: It was only through all these people were under intense pressure.
MC: Absolutely.
GS: All the time. And although they were, there was a degree of fun and they had to have this outlet with all the activities they did and the, and the silly things they did because they wouldn’t have lasted another minute.
MC: Yeah. Are you aware of the term LMF?
GS: No.
MC: Used in the Air Force. Lack of moral fibre.
GS: Oh well, I know about that from, from the first one. Well, from the First World War when they took people out and shot them.
MC: Yeah. Well, I mean the MO at the station then would have likely sent that young man to the hospital.
GS: Yeah.
MC: To avoid him being declared as lack of moral fibre. That’s the, you know, that was, it was one of those things during the war. I just wondered whether you’d come across it.
GS: No. I’d not come across that. I mean most of the people that other than that I’d spoke to a lot of them were people who actually worked at the hospital and RAF people.
MC: Yes.
GS: But as I say a large, a large proportion of the people that came to the reunion were people who had actually had the treatment at the hospital. I mean, like Gus Walker. Wing, wing, well I can’t remember what he was then. He was the commander anyway. At Scampton.
MC: Yeah.
GS: And he’d, he’d been talking to another man standing outside and he noticed there was a Lancaster bomber and the bomb doors were open and there were fuses dropping that were not, not alight and he knew there was a big bomb on board and he went to run towards it. He went to run towards it and the bomb went up. The plane completely disappeared and Gus Walker was blown seventy feet backwards fortunately but he left one arm behind.
MC: Yes. I know the story of Gus Walker. Yes.
GS: Yes. I only know because when we were in Holland he was in charge out there and my friend’s father was the, husband rather was his driver and we met him at various functions that we went to. So I felt very privileged you know but yeah I mean —
MC: Was Gus Walker treated at the hospital then?
GS: What they did, they happened, they went rushing out. This Mrs Masters went and she and two surgeons and that rushed out there and then brought him back. And then he, while he was in there, God, what was his name? The Dambusters man.
MC: Oh, Gibson.
GS: Gibson.
MC: Yeah.
GS: He was, apparently he was very close to Gus Walker.
MC: Yeah.
GS: And he used to come in practically every day to see him. And that’s when Mrs Masters and Gus, and that young man started an affair but —
MC: Ok [laughs] Which young man are you talking about? [laughs] Oh so we’re —
GS: What did I say his name was?
MC: Gibson.
GS: Gibson. With Gibson.
MC: Really?
GS: In fact, Gibson was her son’s godfather.
MC: Amazing. Amazing. Yeah.
GS: But, but no it, no one who, I mean you’ve been in the RAF so you will realise you know but you can’t possibly realise what it was like. It’s only by talking to these people that you realise what pressure they were under. It was immense.
MC: Yeah. Yes, it was.
GS: And when, when I hear about these people nowadays moaning and groaning about doing a bit of extra work I really get —
MC: Yes. They certainly did go through a lot.
GS: They did.
MC: They did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s been lovely talking to you, you know.
GS: Do you think that’s alright?
MC: Oh, it’s brilliant. It’s been brilliant. It’s superb and I thank you very much for doing this interview.
GS: Well, as I said now I can put it all to rest and I can just shut my mind away from it because I’ve lived with it for all these years and I just wanted to make sure that it was available on the internet about Rauceby itself and I wanted Bomber Command to have something about it.
MC: The beauty of this is of course, the recording is, it will be on the archives.
GS: Yeah.
MC: People can listen to your story.
GS: Probably bore them stiff.
MC: Thank you very much.
GS: Are you sure you don’t want a drink?
MC: No, thank you Gwyneth.
GS: That’s alright.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Gwyneth Stratten
Creator
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Mike Connock
Date
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2021-07-22
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:52:28 Audio Recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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AStrattenG210722, PStrattenF2101
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Language
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eng
Description
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Gwyneth Stratten was born in London in 1934. She was briefly evacuated during the war but wrote to her mother to say if she didn’t come and collect her she would walk home. On a visit to a museum in London with her mother she saw a group of badly injured airmen visiting the museum. This was the start of her fascination with the men of the Guinea Pig Club and their surgeon Archibald McIndoe. Gwyneth joined the Army in 1951 and was very happy in her role. She married an RAF serviceman and returned to the UK. Years later she became the librarian of Rauceby Hospital which after being a mental institution had become a military hospital during the war. When the hospital was due for closure she began collecting items to build a picture of the history of the old hospital and organised a reunion of ex-RAF patients.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Guinea Pig Club
McIndoe, Archibald (1900-1960)
RAF hospital Rauceby