1
25
2
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/786/9341/PWildesJE180829.1.jpg
20072f7f64debe87ec906cbfd6e26011
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/786/9341/AWildesJE180829.1.mp3
e631f87cbb026ea8770f4a9901045618
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wildes, Jim
James Ernest Wildes
J E Wildes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with James Wildes (1923 - 2019, Royal Air Force).
He failed aircrew selection due to ear problems and so served as ground personnel.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wildes, JE
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MH: That’s great. Well, first of all Jim I’m delighted to come and meet you today and listen to, to your story. I know a little about you. I hope to when I leave at the end to know far more. Ok. There’s a little bit I’ve just got to say at the start so that people listening to this back at the Bomber Command Centre know exactly where we are and what we’re doing. So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Martyn Hordern. That’s myself. The interviewee is James Wildes. The interview is taking place at the Tri Services and Veteran Support Centre, Hassell Street, Newcastle, Staffordshire. Also present is Peter Batkin who is a friend of Jim. The date is the 29th of August 2018 and the time by my watch is quarter past eleven in the morning. I know from just talking to you Jim that you were born on the 18th of July 1923. Where was that then? Where were you born?
JW: Burton on Trent.
MH: Ok. Tell me a bit about your parents and your family life as, as a lad.
[pause]
JW: We lived with my, my dad and mother and the tribe that, because she had six children and I was the eldest lived in South Oxford Street, Burton on Trent. My dad was out of work for seven or eight years during the recession of that time. My mother was a tailoress and she worked from home reversing coats and that sort of thing because that was the way you lived those days.
MH: Did your, did your dad serve in the First World War?
JW: Yes. He was in the Staffordshires.
MH: How long did he serve during the war?
JW: He served in the, in the First World War and a little bit afterwards in Ireland. I don’t think he’d signed on. It was like it was at the end of —
MH: Yeah.
JW: The Second World War. You could do another year before you got home.
MH: So, so as a young lad what did, I take it you went to school. What age did you leave school?
JW: Fourteen.
MH: Ok.
JW: Because of my birthday coming in July I did the eleven plus twice. The first time I failed. The second time I got enough to pass to secondary school. Not to Grammar School. But my mother couldn’t afford uniform so we got a deal where I went to Union Street one day per week at government expense.
MH: Right. And then when you left school what did you do?
JW: I was training to be an apprentice joiner and carpenter because my grandad, the other Ernie he, he was a master joiner. And I worked with him whenever I could from fourteen on but I had to have another job to support the family because he was a jobbing joiner that had contracted for jobs. We used to do South African Railway carriages and it all came pre-packed. And you always put in Baguleys of Burton on Trent and he would, he would, we would put it together like you do things these days. Cut it all in.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In South African Railways style.
MH: Right. So then the Second World War came along. You were —
JW: Well —
MH: You were just sixteen.
JW: I I’d, around about fourteen I joined the Boy’s Brigade and there was an RAF section in it of about four of us and on Sundays sometimes we went to Burnaston Aerodrome which is now a car factory and we could swing a Tiger Moth. And I got one flight of it because occasionally an RAF retired officer turned up to fly this thing.
MH: And that was the first time you ever went in a plane?
JW: Yes, was. That was my first time.
MH: So, so, the Second World War started. You were, you were just sixteen.
JW: Yes.
MH: What were you doing then?
JW: I I was still doing, well I eventually got, what happened was that, that the restrictions on my grandfather forced both he and I to join another joinery firm because there was no longer small businesses around. We were forced in to wartime things from 1938 so, I became a bound apprentice with Sharp Brother and Knight of Burton on Trent. Around about seventeen the Boy’s Brigade sent me to Cardington for an interview for aircrew which I failed because I’d got bad ears and in those days those aircraft weren’t pressurised. So they, but I did the exam and they recommended and gave me a little notation that I go in to Derby when I was seventeen and half to recruit as a VR. Which I did.
MH: What’s a VR?
[pause]
JW: Volunteer Reserve.
MH: Right.
JW: Yes.
MH: Thank you. So, by that time we were sort of talking about towards the end of 1940 are we then, at that point?
JW: No. We’re talking about 1941.
MH: Right. In to, yeah.
JW: Early in 1941 that happened. At seventeen and a half I had to get my dad’s signature to be able to join the Air force which I did and took to Derby.
MH: What was your parents view of that at the time then? Seeing as you didn’t —
JW: Well, my dad didn’t want me to join but my mother said it’s alright.
MH: What was the reason your dad didn’t want you to join?
JW: Well, he’d been at, I think Mons during the First World War for some time.
MH: So, he’d been at the start.
JW: So, he’d been in that and he was on Gallipoli as well.
MH: So he, do you think he knew a bit more about what you were likely to face than what your mum did?
JW: Yes. Exactly.
MH: So, so you up at sixteen and a half. Where was the first place you —
JW: Well, I didn’t actually get in until June or July. They called me in.
MH: So you were just about eighteen then.
JW: Yes. And they followed the recommendation to send me to Halton for aircraft training, which I did. I went to Halton and joined the RAF. And I passed out second in an entry of about eighty people that were doing a joining course like, it was split in to two halves. A bit for engines and a bit for airframes and I was, I came second and was sent on for on the job training at Abingdon.
MH: Right.
JW: On Hampdens and Whitleys.
MH: Yeah. So where was Halton then? Whereabouts is Halton? I know where Abingdon is.
JW: Halton is Wendover. Very very near. Do you know Wendover?
MH: I’ve heard of it.
JW: Yes. Very near to Chequers.
MH: And Abingdon obviously became a car factory. A car factory wasn’t it?
JW: Yes. This Abingdon was, they trained you on, on real aircraft.
MH: Right. So —
JW: And then they took me back to once I was trained on. So that was my first [pause] Abingdon was 10 OTU and the Whitleys and Hampdens were flying aircraft. So that was Bomber Command.
MH: And what, what were you doing when you were there? You said on the job training. What was your, what was your, what were you trained?
JW: I was trained on, on the Abingdons and the Whitleys and also we strung up a a biplane as well. So I was trained mainly on aircraft rather than engines.
MH: Right. So, so you just, you just said stringing up a plane.
JW: Yeah.
MH: Now that, what’s that then?
JW: A biplane.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Where you, you were setting all the angles etcetera and I learned the fifty seven point three method of, of angles.
MH: And what’s, the fifty seven point three method?
JW: Well, if you, if you, you take [reckoning] of fifty seven point three in a circle, make a circle at that radius for every one unit is one degree all the way around the circle.
MH: Right. So —
JW: So, you could set controls, the rudders all that sort of thing by doing that. A mathematical job.
MH: And was there much difference between a biplane which was obviously getting almost obsolete at that point and then the bigger planes that you were working on?
JW: Well, the bigger planes were really had main spars which also held the undercarriage and that sort of thing. And usually there were [pause] they had bomb doors which worked with elastic. Those days the bomb dropped and opened the door [laughs]
MH: Yeah. Ok. So you’d done that initial training.
JW: Yes. And then Halton called me back to do the fitter course and and to give me the full trade because I came out first as an AC. I joined the RAF at AC2 level. So I, my first entry got me an AC1 at, at aircraft engineering level. But my second training I was fourth in the entry of fifty and that got me an LAC recommendation.
MH: What does LAC stand for?
JW: Leading aircraftsman. It’s like a lance corporal in the Army.
MH: And how long had you been in the RAF at that point?
JW: About, well my first course ended on March ’42. My second course I got posted in February ’43 after the end of the second course to Pershore which was another OTU opening up in Gloucestershire. So, and this was another. I was on Wellingtons so it was another Bomber Command area.
MH: And did, when you moved to a different aircraft were there similarities or were they things that you had to get used to all over again?
JW: Yeah. You had to get used to new things but on the second course at Halton they had embraced various changes that were taking place. And also on that second course they’d also embraced little bits about American aircraft as well as British aircraft and I was interested in American aircraft as well as British ones.
MH: So, you were at Pershore.
JW: So, I went to Pershore.
MH: OTU is operational —
JW: 23 OTU.
MH: Operational Training Unit.
JW: Yes. It was just opening up. We had no aircraft at all. The hangar wasn’t open. The workmen were still working on it. The cookhouse was an open cookhouse because that part wasn’t built but we were in the four huts that were built. One of the four huts that were, were starting the unit off. We had no aircraft at all and one arrived about two weeks after I arrived at Pershore. There was, we put it out on a distant little field, picketed it down for the night and we were bombed that night. But it didn’t get the aircraft. It got little bits near to the hangar.
MH: So you, the plane you basically moved the plane away from the main buildings for that reason.
JW: Yes. That’s right. Picketed it down.
MH: Yeah. What sort of strip was it there? Was it hardstanding or was it grass?
JW: Hardstanding.
MH: So it would be tarmac. Tarmac.
JW: Yes. The strip was there and we picketed on one of the, on one of the ends. There were several different areas and we picketed on one of those.
MH: So how long before you started getting more planes?
JW: We then got the planes at about one a week for a few weeks and then two or three a week and these were delivered direct from the manufacturer and our job was to bring them up to standard. Put the turrets in. The extra seating. All the little bits that went in for radar and various things that was coming in. And we dispersed those to other airfields down Gloucestershire and Worcestershire.
MH: So, so it sounds like there was a lot to do to get those planes ready.
JW: Yes. By that time the hangar was going so we had a corner of the hangar that we would be a team. As the aircraft came from the makers they came completely empty with ballast in place of things. So you were getting the ballast out, putting the turrets in in place of the ballast and the various other things that you had to do like second pilot seats and various things. There was cable cutters to put in to the wings in case the Wimpie was flying and had to cut a cable on a balloon.
MH: So how long did that take to get a plane from from you receiving it from the factory to then being ready to to actually start to fly?
JW: Well, it probably on the team turn out one a week once we were geared up to do so.
MH: And how many were on your team?
JW: And there would probably be an engine fitter, an airframe fitter, an electrician would do two or three teams. Same with an instrument man and the radio people came in when they were needed.
MH: Right. So, so you, over a period of time you’ve all had these planes slowly coming from the factory.
JW: And being dispersed.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In Worcestershire and Gloucestershire and at various aerodromes like.
MH: Right.
JW: There was many. So, there was about eight aerodromes down that, all being built.
MH: Yeah.
JW: And —
MH: So, so was Pershore the hub for all these to come in to, in to —
JW: All these.
MH: And you would get them ready.
JW: Yes.
MH: And then you would move them out.
JW: Yeah.
MH: So, so was that basically all your job entailed? Oh, that sounds a bit disrespectful.
JW: Yes, I —
MH: But was that all just basically like a production line of planes coming in and going out.
JW: And going out. Yes.
MH: So was there, was there any flying at Pershore? Was it a flying airfield as well?
JW: Oh yes. It was an airfield, and flew. It had its own aircraft as well.
MH: Right.
JW: Probably about eight I think that got it in two. It was 23 OTU but they got it in A and B Flights or they might have even had C.
MH: Yeah.
JW: But they got about eight aircraft of their own on dispersals which I didn’t take part in.
MH: No.
JW: Because I was in the teams that were shoving them out.
MH: Yeah. So the A and B flights had their own mechanics.
JW: Yeah. They were mechanics rather than fitters.
MH: So, so what was it like fitting, fitting a turret to, how many turrets did you fit into a Wellington then?
JW: Well, the, we were on Wellington 3s and that was the, the advanced turret for the rear end because Wellington bombers you couldn’t get out of the turret excepting back in to the aircraft. It didn’t have enough angle. But the Wellington 3 did and if you had to eject in the air it could turn round and the man could fall out of the turret.
MH: Right.
JW: And bale out.
MH: So how long did you stay at Pershore doing that sort of work?
JW: September ’43. [pause] September ’43 I got a posting to 206 Squadron. They was at Benbecula flying Hudsons but I didn’t get there because I got part way there, as far as Wick, by Aberdeen and they turned me back to Liverpool. Gave me a new warrant to get to Liverpool and then across the water to the Wirral to an Army unit because 206 Squadron Benbecula were breaking up in flights and I was on what was called 8206 which was a Combined Ops Unit and I joined this Army unit as the RAF and some people had come already from Benbecula. There was about fifty of us altogether in the RAF forming up to go to go to, eventually to the Azores but we weren’t given the information.
MH: But you didn’t know where you were going.
JW: We didn’t know where we were going.
MH: So, what was the, so you were there. How many were there from the RAF then?
JW: There was about, well there was supposed to be a thousand RAF, a thousand Army and a thousand Navy.
MH: Right. So it was a big outfit.
JW: Yes. Because where ever we were going it was a Combined Ops Unit. We were, we were liable to have to be under canvas for a certain length of time.
MH: So how long were you? You say you were on the Wirral? Do you know?
JW: Well, about two weeks. We, we had got certain bits of kit and a sten gun and a little bit of training and square mess tins. We had to hand our round tins in for square mess tins.
MH: Were rounds ones particular to the RAF I take it?
JW: No. The round ones were on issue to everybody at that time.
MH: Right.
JW: But the square mess tin fitted the, the ration packs that were coming in.
MH: Yeah.
JW: At that time. So, we had to have a square mess tin.
MH: And you said you got some training with a sten gun so you were taught to shoot were you then?
JW: We were taught to shoot. We were taught a little bit about self-defence. We were taught to use our mess tins and given a mug which was china and needless to say you soon broke the mug.
MH: So, so what, what did you think when suddenly you’d gone from fitting turrets on to Wellingtons to now you’re on the Wirral in this this other unit of soldiers and other, and sailors and suddenly they’re teaching you to fire guns.
JW: Well, we were there about two weeks kitting out etcetera and then we, we joined, they brought us back to Liverpool dock, the Liver Dock and we joined the Franconia which was a troop ship. And that night we sailed across the water to Bangor Harbour where the rest of the people came in. The rest of the three thousand people came in. I was only on a unit of about fifty which was 8206. There were other RAF people around but we did different units.
MH: Did you know where you were going at that point?
JW: No. That, that same evening we must have left Bangor because when we woke up on, on we were below decks and the weather broke up the next morning.
MH: I’m going to just pause there.
[recording paused]
MH: Right. Just to explain to people listening to this recording we’ve just a very important thing which was sorting out lunch for Jim and Pete. So, we’re just starting again. So, you were just at the point where you’d set sail.
JW: We’d sailed.
MH: You were below decks and you woke up the next morning.
JW: We woke up the next morning and we’d come out of Bangor and we were now heading west. Due west. And this went on for about two days and we thought, everyone thought we’re going to Iceland because we were going in that direction. Suddenly we turned left and started in a southerly direction. This went on for about another day and we joined up with a, with a Navy ship. A Destroyer, and he was hovering around us and about four days later we overtook a flotilla of merchant ships that had other Navy ships around them and an aircraft carrier. And at that time our officers were drawn in to tell us that we were going to land in the Azores.
MH: Which was part of Portugal, wasn’t it?
JW: Which was part of Portugal.
MH: A neutral country.
JW: And this was before Winston Churchill had announced anything about this island.
MH: Right.
JW: This, this island was called Terceira. It was a small volcanic island with [barefoots] so we were all given the necessary jabs up our backsides because they were worried about plagues and that sort of thing. And then we arrived on a Sunday afternoon. The, there was a big Navy ship offloading boats to get us from the, from our ship and from the merchant ships to the shore.
MH: I take it there wasn’t a harbour as such then.
JW: On a little harbour called [pause] [unclear] or something like that. It was a little harbour. Anyway, we, we all assembled with our kit and of course the RAF volunteered [laughs] to go as soon as possible and we jumped in to these boats because the sea was rather rough, running at about ten foot, landing craft and got to shore where, where the other people that was before us were receiving all sorts of things ashore. And there was tea laid on but the rest of it was our own rations. So we went on shift. Four hours on two hours off day and night. And that’s how we spent that first night was working for four hours unloading things on the shore and the Army had put up [tents] and tents loosely to an area outside town on the side of a volcano.
MH: Right. So you spent all night unloading and sorting all your stuff out.
JW: Yeah. Well, the next morning 8206 were called together and we, we were told to put our stuff in to a lorry because we were going roughly twenty five mile across country to where we were going to build an Air Force station. We were going to lay plate runway to form a runway and dispersals. We would be in tents for up to a year and we would be on rations, our own rations but two hot meals a day. Breakfast and dinner. There would be no lights. It would just be an encampment in tents. Eight to a tent.
MH: So you started from scratch really.
JW: Yes. And we went over, that day we went over and we started laying, there was no aircraft around. We started laying a strip because the Army was ahead of us in their knocking walls down and things to make an airstrip and that afternoon the Seafires off the aircraft carrier landed on the strip that we’d already prepared.
MH: So you didn’t hang around then. You got it down quick fairly quickly.
JW: Hmmn?
MH: You got, you got your work —
JW: We got enough.
MH: To do that. Yeah.
JW: To land Seafires —
MH: Yeah.
JW: Down in that same afternoon. Because we’d gone first light in the morning and with, as, as strip runway came in we laid it.
MH: Right. How long did it take you to finish laying the full —
JW: Oh well, we were on that as well as our own aircraft. Two days later our aircraft came in from America and we were now on B17s.
MH: So, there’s no, you hadn’t got any British planes as such it was just —
JW: Pardon?
MH: Had you got any British planes there? Bombers or were they —
JW: No. No. No. We had the Seafires. They used, they were on a dispersal and they flew from their own dispersal and they’d somehow or another got one or two people over to help them out. We refuelled from Jerry cans with, because it was all over the wing refuelling and we had no tankers whatsoever. We refuelled from Jerry cans in to a funnel with a, with a filter at the bottom.
MH: It took a bit longer to fill up then normal then.
JW: Oh, good lord, it was. We had no no tanker. A few weeks later, about a fortnight later I went over, I was given civilian overalls to go to the main island to see if we could find a fuel storage unit because Jerry cans were such a pain to refuel with. You know. A five, you could damage the aircraft let alone anything else.
MH: So, you’d got these B17s. were they piloted by American crews?
JW: They, they were piloted by British crews.
MH: Right.
JW: And they were marionised with a radar unit that came down the fuselage and out at the tail wheel. And this was a Canadian unit and they brought one Canadian with them who taught us to, how to polish the wave guide because it was a five inch wave guide and the magnetron was in like a Smith’s biscuit tin which we had to take the lid off every day and polish up the, the prongs.
MH: So was that a particular piece of kit for what they were doing?
JW: No. They —
MH: Or just a general.
JW: The Canadians. It was apparently used for fishing. To find shoals of fish but they’d adapted it to find submarines.
MH: Right.
JW: And so with sonar buoys at strategic places and the mathematics of it all and we had all sorts of radio aerials along the roof of the, of the B17 they could bring in the Navy or the merchant ship, carry their own depth charges if they had to do and find not fish but submarines.
MH: A clever idea. Do you remember what squadron that was?
JW: We were, it was 206 Squadron. We were, we were still 8206 [coughs] because we were like the maintenance team for the squadron.
MH: So, when —
JW: And then about [coughs] that probably went on until about [pause] well I broke a finger just before Christmas and had to have like a tennis racket where it pulled it all out. It did heal in the end so I was, I was in hospital. A Portuguese hospital run, a ward run by the, by the Army or Navy or RAF over Christmas day. But I was only in for about three days after Christmas and when I got back to the unit which was, which the Army had made us like a servicing bay knocking a lump out of, out of the volcano edging because we were like now probably three or four hundred foot above the sea level. When we, when I got back to them there was now 209 Squadron as well as 206 Squadron there so we were getting we had about nine aircraft, B17s, altogether.
MH: And these were all equipped with the same instrumentation to find submarines.
JW: Yes. They had the same. The same sort of kit on and they’d come with the 209 Squadron crews which we, we only saw them come to the aircraft, fly them and that was it and then they’d be gone to where ever they were billeted.
MH: Right. And did, how successful were they at catching submarines? Did you ever get to hear?
JW: Well, I think that it assisted the Navy. They certainly got one submarine as we were coming. The Navy got one submarine as we were coming to land originally because there was subs in that area and they certainly were feeding the subs on the surface and we, because the, the Canary Islands were supplying fuel for all these subs and things.
MH: Right. Because they were under Spain which was fascist, wasn’t it?
JW: They were in Spain you see and we knew that this was happening so we were always overflying that, those areas.
MH: Right.
JW: So, I think they certainly altered the name of the game for, for the ships that were refuelling submarines.
MH: So, it seems to me that at times you were perhaps only aware of what work you were doing. You didn’t see —
JW: Yes.
MH: The pilots flying the planes.
JW: That’s right. Yes.
MH: You didn’t find out how successful. You just did your job.
JW: I did my job. I was sent once to try to get a fuel tanker from the main island which is St Miguel or something like that of the Azores. And that was the only time I’d been at sea again. There was a sergeant sent with me and I was like a lance corporal.
MH: Right. So how long were you in the Azores for? Did that go on for a while?
JW: In, let me see [pause] can I just have a second to look at it?
MH: Of course, you can.
JW: I’ve had to pick this up from my records. [pause] Well, in about April they told us to, to shift all our inventories to 209 Squadron.
MH: This was 1944 at this point.
JW: So, that was 1944. April 1944, because our aircrew had gone back to Blighty and there was only 209 aircrew left on the island now to run these eight or nine B17s. We were told that we were being moved back to Blighty as a squadron. We didn’t know where to but what we knew was we were going back by Skymaster to [pause] to the western side of Africa and then flying on to Blighty by Skymasters because by now the Americans were bringing Skymasters in quite quickly, several a day and even Mitchells were coming through. They were using the airfield as a staging post and incidentally in January a new flotilla of of ships arrived bringing more stuff to the island because we’d been on our own for six months and used up nearly everything we’d brought. So, they’d brought in 209 Squadron servicing crew by ship. They’d brought in all sorts of materials to make decent Nissen huts for people to live in. We were still under canvas and remained under canvas until we moved.
MH: What was the weather like?
JW: Damp. It was the Azores. It’s good, goodish weather. It’ll grow small bananas and that sort of thing but it’s damp and there’s quite a lot of, quite a lot of rain.
MH: So not necessarily the best conditions to be under canvas.
JW: No. No.
MH: Were you aware that point how the war was going elsewhere? What were you hearing?
JW: Yes. We had a newspaper that came around. I think it was originally once a month and now it was probably a weekly one called, “The Azores Times.” I think. And we, we were kept assured of what was going on in Blighty. Anyway, we eventually got home piecemeal between Casablanca and, and the tip of Cornwall where we landed at, the Skymasters landed at St Mawgan. So I was home about May and the, the officer in charge said, ‘Ah, your squadron is at St Eval.’ So, he got me a garrey to get me to St Eval.
MH: Whats a garrey?
JW: A garrey is a lorry.
MH: Right. Right.
JW: To get me to St Eval. And there I, I was back with the rest of the lads. There was, we were the last two to get away from, from Casablanca because it was all done when we could get a flight.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Because there was mostly flights were for officers.
MH: Did you get a chance to have a walk around? Did you get in to town while you were in Casablanca? Did you get to see the sights?
JW: Oh yes. Yes. And I also did some work for the RAF unit because they were putting together American Lightnings as a twin boom Lightnings.
MH: Yeah P38s.
JW: Yes.
MH: So, so you get back to England.
JW: Yes.
MH: Was this just before D-Day and where —
JW: Yes. Yeah. This was about a week before D-Day and I was put on night shift. We lived at Morganporth in a commandeered hotel and we had dry rations. We didn’t have anything to do with St Eval as, as a unit. We were, we were on a dispersal about the furthermost away. They did bring a hot meal in. If you were on days you got it at lunchtime. If you were on nights you got it about two in the morning. So we were always kept. Had a hot meal on site. But we were permanently on site on twelve hours shifts. Twelve on. Twelve off.
MH: So were you with the squadron at this point in time or just with the, like —
JW: Yes. This was 206 Squadron.
MH: Right. Ok.
JW: We’ve now changed to Liberators by the way. We, the aircrew had adapted to Liberators.
MH: And did you have to do much to catch up in terms of work —
JW: Well, it was a question of a Liberator is another aircraft and you get used to knowing that aircraft are aircraft.
MH: And what were you, what was your job at that time? What were you were working on?
JW: Well, again being an LAC I I ran a little team of people.
MH: Right.
JW: About three mechanics. Three or four. Usually an engine mechanic, an air frame mechanic and one wanderer like an electrician or instruments or both.
MH: And what, what operations were the squadron involved in around about at that time?
JW: We were putting an anti-submarine because the Liberators were also anti- submarine. I don’t know quite what type because they didn’t seem to have the same scanners as a B17 so I didn’t know anything about that side of what they were scanning.
MH: And where were, where were—
JW: It must have been some sort of radar.
MH: Yeah. And what areas were they operating?
JW: They, they were covering Brest to the Irish Sea for anti-submarine block.
MH: And, and we were obviously getting around to D-Day at this point in time. Were you aware that that was, happened or, you know, you just carry on as normal? Or did you —
JW: Well, on I think it was the 5th of, was it June? D-Day.
MH: Yeah. 6th of June was the actual —
JW: The 6th. On the night of the 5th I was on duty that night and about five in the morning just as day was breaking there was a flotilla. A flotilla of B17s, Americans all painted up with the white stripes you know and there must have been a couple of hundred come over us at about 5 in the morning. Came over the top of us and flew on towards France. So that must have been the start of D-Day.
MH: And then how did your, how did 206 Squadron sort of carry on doing duty?
JW: We used, on our tannoy system which was separate to the station system if there was sighting of a U-boat they would send the message over and tell us what was happening by the air crew and two or three evenings we were told they were chasing U-boats and dropping DCs.
MH: Depth charges.
JW: Depth charges.
MH: So, so that was almost like a real time. You were told as it was happening.
JW: Yeah. Happening in real time.
MH: They’d relay. They’d relay the radio messages.
JW: Well, we went on for about a week there and then suddenly they said, ‘Well, go and take what you can of your kit. Bring in your kit. Bring in everything you’ve got. Take what you can of ground equipment because you’re going up to Leuchar, Scotland as a part of a unit of 206. Leaving some people in 206 looking after what they were looking after and you’re going up by train to Leuchar to set up a similar system from Leuchar on the North Sea.’
MH: And that’s what you did. And how long did that go on for?
JW: This went, we, we brought our kit in. The train we’d loaded what we could of ground equipment and tools and all that. Things that we think, thought we’d need. And we were at, we went up by slow train to Leuchar. This took about, there was rations put on so we had rations on the way and I think when we got to Leuchar there was a hot meal laid on and we went straight to the flight and some of our aircraft were now landing at Leuchar. Some of the, some of the Liberators were landing at Leuchar and in the Leuchar base was very near the sea because Leuchar is on a small island, just by the golf course and in on the sea front there was the RAF unit that ran MTBs. Motor torpedo boats. So we communicated with them that what would happen. We’d site where, where U-boats were and they would go out and see if they would surrender or, or get DC’d.
MH: And how long were you at Leuchar for?
JW: Probably a fortnight because in Leuchar they were asking, by then they were asking for people to go to India and, and look at the Far East. And there were people, they were looking for people that were single. Not married.
MH: You were still single at that time.
JW: So I was still single at that time so my CO said, ‘Will you volunteer?’ As usual. So, I was on my way then. I got a couple of days leave and down to, I think I went to Morecambe, I’m not sure. And a couple of days leave at home to Morecambe. Morecambe to Southampton by train and I found myself on the way to India at the [pause] when did I go to India? [pause] August 1944.
MH: Right.
JW: End of August. I landed actually in Calcutta. I landed at Worli. That’s the old, the old what’s it called now? In India.
MH: I’m not sure.
JW: Worli.
MH: I’m not sure about Worli because they’ve gone back to the original names not the anglicised names, haven’t they?
JW: Ceylon. Not.
MH: Oh, Sri Lanka are you on about? Sri Lanka? No.
JW: No. What’s Hollywood in [pause] Bollywood.
MH: Yeah.
JW: What town was that?
MH: I’m not sure to be honest. My Indian knowledge is not that good.
JW: I landed on that side of India.
MH: Yeah. Right.
JW: Caught a train across to Calcutta which wasn’t —
MH: It wasn’t Bombay. You’re not on about Bombay, are you?
JW: Bombay, landed Bombay. Worli. Caught a train the next day. A troop train going to Calcutta and we pushed it half the way.
MH: The train?
JW: It was a troop train so you’d, you’d go about four hours, five hours, something like that, all disembark for a hot cup of tea and your rations for that day. So you were still living on rations. Anyway, when I got to Calcutta I was posted to Dum Dum which was the Calcutta race course at that time. Now, it’s the airport but at that time it was just the racecourse. I was posted to a little unit called [pause] what was it called? Air Salvage and Servicing. It had three Dakotas that were all being modified to carry stuff externally as well as internally. And I was given my corporal tapes whilst I was on that unit because you couldn’t get permanent corporal. You could only be an LAC permanent. So each unit you went to you’d got to qualify to be an acting corporal.
MH: So what was, what was this air salvage —
JW: Air Salvage Unit. I joined a team, or I was in charge of a team as an acting corporal and we, we would be responsible for taking stuff in to the Burma area that was needed by squadrons. For instance on one occasion we, we took a, there was other teams taking things like Spitfires to pieces. We used to split the the Spitfire in to the engine, attach the prop off, the tail off and the empennage and one, one wing upside down with a fairing on the front hung by cables between, underneath the Dakota. The Spitfire we would fit inside the fuselage with the engine in the open doors which we dispersed with so we were now have got half of a Spitfire into a Dakota. We, we would go from Dum Dum to Agartala which was in Assam, north of the river, refuel and then fly on and in this particular instance to an airfield that you couldn’t get to in daytime because of volcanoes and things ad drop in there, offload my part of the gear. The pilot who was a Polish pilot that he had no, no navigational aids whatsoever. We, we used to fly, I used to fly with him and just follow the route that he told me to follow. Followed either a river or a railway line and just watch what was going on or fly a course where I was keeping to a course.
MH: And then, obviously you dropped off this Spitfire. Did you then bring —
JW: He came back for the other half.
MH: Right.
JW: And that would arrive the next morning.
MH: And then you had to put it together.
JW: And my, by that time we’d put as much of the Spitfire together with three of us as we could get together.
MH: Yeah. And was that something you did for quite a while in India?
JW: I did. I did Imphal Valley once. I did a lot of various drops. I worked for 31 Squadron for quite a while.
MH: What sort of squadron were they? Were they —
JW: They were another Dakota squadron.
MH: Right.
JW: That were supplying Chindits —
MH: Right.
JW: And people like the Chindits in, in Burma with mules. We even took mules in one day. I I wasn’t on that aircraft. That was one of our other aircraft.
MH: So how long did you stay in India for?
JW: Well, I, I was, I also did a trip from, starting at Agartala where, where I picked up a train load of Hurricanes because we couldn’t get the Hurricane. The Hurricane’s built differently to the Spitfire. You can’t get it in to a Dakota. You can get a wing on but you can’t get an outer wing. You can put on but you can’t get the centre section so we were taking Hurricanes and various other spares back to India to Kanpur which was the MU that put them together again. And this was a two week journey. Caught the, picked up the train and my rations and a sten gun. A colleague, there was two, always two of us on the train and apart from sten guns we had, we picked up a long range rifle. A Garand rifle for long distance shooting if, if we were being attacked. We would then go Cox’s Bazaar. Pick up some more kit there. Chittagong. Worked our way to the Brahmaputra point where the train would be offloaded and loaded on to barges and go up the Brahmaputra for about seven or eight hours to another port on the right hand side for, for narrow gauge use.
MH: Yes.
JW: And from there we would go, go to, to Kanpur and the whole journey would take about seven days if you were lucky. If you were unlucky it could take up to a fortnight.
MH: And when did you get back to the, get back to England then? How long before —
JW: Well, from that I went, I was on Ramree Island which is an island off Burma with 31 Squadron when the war ended. When the atom bomb, the second atom bomb dropped. And we were told to go to Mingaladon and be on, everybody at Mingaladon which was the bottom of Burma to wait for the Viceroy of India to come in and take the surrender which happened the next morning. We were all lined up. All the squadrons around were lined up along one side and in came the York with, with the Viceroy of India on. He got killed in Ireland, didn’t he?
MH: Lord Mountbatten.
JW: Lord Mountbatten. Yes. He took the salute from the, from the Japanese who gave him all the swords etcetera. And then we moved on. We, we were given the task of looking after 31 Squadron. I was now with 31 Squadron. Still on attachment [laughs] We, we were given Siam, Sumatra, land at Singapore but don’t take the salute there. And then go on to Java and Borneo. So I ended up in Java running, running B Flight aeroplanes. About four. Four aeroplanes and I had a crew of about two fitters and two, two engine men. And that’s when my release came through for Class B demob. So, the next morning I’d got my kit packed and an A Flight aircraft flew me back to Singapore. I I mounted a boat, got a boat from there to Southampton and was demobbed at Hednesford.
MH: And what date was that? Can you remember?
JW: 9th of the 3rd ’46.
MH: Right. Right. I understand, I don’t think your time in the RAF quite finished then, did it? Although you’d been demobbed.
JW: No. No. I I was discharged to complete my apprenticeship as a civvy which I did. I found I was then on a half a crown an hour for a fully fledged joiner. And I enquired of the firm I was working for, ‘What was my promotion? Would I get promotion?’ He said, ‘Well, when —' such and such dies —' he was about fifty at the time, I was about twenty two or four, something like that. ‘When he dies you or Johnny will get the job,’ because there was two of us. An Army lad that had done much the same as I had. So, I’d, I had notice from the Air Force that I could join for five years. Or four years or something of that nature and get my tapes back. So I wrote to the RAF. I’d done this prior to finishing my time. My civilian time. I wrote to the RAF and got a guarantee that I would be promoted to substantive corporal for the jobs that I’d done as an acting corporal and they gave me this. They said yes you will be but you’ll have to do three months on the job to prove that you’re capable.
MH: So, what squadron did you go back in to?
JW: So I went back to Swinderby for a four years, four year enlistment and that gave me a hundred and twenty five quid.
MH: And what, what did you do when you went back then? A similar sort of thing?
JW: Well, they had Wellington 20s by that time. Navigation. They were doing training navigation in Bomber Command. 17 OTU they were so they were Bomber Command again. And I was there until January ’51 in Swinderby. In 17 OTU.
MH: So what, what was your role then? What were you doing there?
JW: Again, I was what they called the piece of wind section which was the air and the, and the hydraulics. I ran a little section of of about three bodies. We did tyres as well. We did hydraulics. I did a little bit of work producing a better ground equipment than, than at that time we had because the RAF was very very short of decent ground equipment. So I’d mounted, because we were, we needed high pressure air on the Wellington 20s.
MH: Yeah. Was it different post-war than during the war? Was there a different atmosphere?
JW: It was gradually getting back to Wednesdays off you know. Wednesday afternoon was sports day and the, it just so happened that I met my wife at that time because the, the old diversion air field for Swinderby was Wigsley. And Wigsley was being used in the huts for people that had been in Germany for —
MH: Displaced persons.
JW: Displaced persons, and my wife was a displaced person.
MH: Right.
JW: That had recently come over and it just so happened I’d, we were doing circuits and bumps on the airfield and I’d sent one of my men over to do backstay checks on, once they’d landed you had to make sure the geometric lock was in the correct place before they could take off again and he said, ‘Hey, there’s a load of women over there.’ So off we went on our motorbikes.
MH: Right. So I understand at some point in time you worked on the Vulcan.
JW: Yes.
MH: Was that towards the end of your time?
JW: Well, [pause] where was I?
MH: You said you were at Swinderby until about 1950, weren’t you? Something like that.
JW: Yes. ’51. I’d done training courses to take Meteor 3s out to, out to Singapore. Unfortunately, the Makarios war took all our aircraft so although the Meteor 3s were on a boat loaded for Singapore we couldn’t get to them. So Singapore did their own lot and put the Meteor 3s in. But we were on posting anyway to Singapore as a unit and in January ’51 I landed in Singapore as a unit but because the Meteor 3s had been put in to service we were given another job in Singapore on Sunderlands which was another aircraft I didn’t know.
MH: No.
JW: And 205 and 220 Squadron were the squadrons but I was put in to the Maintenance Unit to bring up a beached aircraft. And it was at that point I got a wound on my left foot because putting, getting the thing up slip. They’re the last thing. You bring it up back to front and the last thing that happened was that the tow on one side towed before the other side, pulled the aircraft around with the ground equipment over my foot. That caused me problems that I still suffer today. We, we did Singapore, posted back to UK and to Stradishall. And it was from Stradishall that I I got my legs mended from the ‘51 thing in ’53. I I had them mended at, at an RAF hospital that near to Cambridge. I was at Stradishall in ’44 and was called to Melksham to go on to V bombers because my Fitter 1 training way back in my marriage days of ’48 was to Yatesbury to be a Fitter 1. Now, it had taken that time to sort out what the Fitter 1 really should be as an ASC and it was Melksham that we were sent to for coursing. And then on to AV Roes because again I passed out about fourth in the entry so we had the choice of aircraft. There was about fifty on the course but only the first ten went either on to Vulcans or Victors.
MH: So, so a massive —
JW: I chose Vulcans.
MH: Why did you choose Vulcans?
JW: Because it’s a better aircraft.
MH: Better in what way?
JW: Better in, even the Mark 1 which I had was a better aircraft. A much steadier aircraft for bombing.
MH: So you thought it was a better aircraft to maintain was it?
JW: A better aircraft all round. All the way round.
MH: Yeah.
JW: There was one advantage that the other aircraft had, the Victor had, was powered by by 220 volts rather than, rather than a 112 volt battery. That was the only advantage that I saw.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In that, but the Mark 2 Vulcan became a 220 anyway.
MH: So how long did you remain in the RAF for, Jim?
JW: Well, I remained on Vulcan 1s and XH477 was my allocated aircraft. I took that on board and flew with it on many occasions as ASC.
MH: Actually, in the plane.
JW: Oh yes.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Yes. Well, you’d, if the aircraft was on a given operation I could not fly with it. If the aircraft was on what they called a lone ranger or going to do a job like Butterworths which is the other side of Malaya or Australia or, for instance we did the George Ward’s thing in Rio de Janeiro and, and we did [pause] we inaugurated a president in Buenos Aires as well. So on those flight an ASC flew with the aircraft as the sixth seat.
MH: Just in case you needed to do maintenance while it was out there.
JW: Yes. Well, we usually took a servicing crew as well. These were Hermes aircraft for Buenos Aires. We’d take two Hermes with crews on board. Some for training for the actual inauguration because they, our second pilot was an AVM.
MH: Air Vice Marshall.
JW: Hmnn?
MH: Air Vice Marshall. AVM.
JW: Air Vice Marshall. A one-handed man that had lost his hand during the war. In Spitfire presumably. We were very [pause] we did those sorts of operations with ASC on the sixth seat so I I think I flew mostly most of the hours in my aircraft than any other crew. Eventually, I was given the chance of going on Mark 2s but I I sent my PV3 back to Air Ministry saying I was leaving the Air force in less than two years. So they called me to Air Ministry to query why and I explained that I I was really in a position where I had to find a civilian job that suited me. And I had already done twenty two years so wanted to be clear of the Air Force inside another three years. And I didn’t want to go on Mark 2s for that reason. So I was given the opportunity of handing my aircraft to what was my second dickie now which I did and going on SFTT work for [pause] for, for until I left the Air Force. Until I found a suitable job which I did with ICL.
MH: Where was that? In Stoke on Trent?
JW: In Stoke. And I found, I found the job with English Electric Leo Marconi which became a part of ICL. So I was initially at Kidsgrove in the electrical huts on the opposite site.
MH: Using a lot of skills that you learned in the RAF?
JW: Yeah. I was, well when the, when ICL was formed the name of the game was different because I I’d gone in using RAF skills and and various things but I was now offered a management job in ICL to look after the field problems of ICL. Forming and getting rid of various little units that had joined, made up ICL and making bigger units like the Arndale Centre at Manchester where I took eleven top floors in the Arndale Centre. Eleven to twenty two.
MH: Right.
JW: Without lifts initially.
MH: I can imagine. I think that you’ve told me an absolutely fascinating story of a lad from Burton who was going to be a carpenter. Doesn’t seem to ever have been much of a carpenter because he spent most of his time in the RAF but I suppose as you say you got a trade but —
JW: Yeah. Well, my, my trade fitted me up fine for ICL work.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In the field.
MH: So is there anything else from your RAF time you want to tell me about? Have we covered most of —
JW: I left in 1966. October. And I had a good, a good twenty two years with, with ICL.
MH: Afterwards —
JW: And manage with three pensions.
MH: Yeah.
JW: With them as well as an RAF pension.
MH: Right. That, that’s great. I’ve got no questions to ask. I said I’ll be writing some notes down but you did say that you could talk and you’ve just, you’ve told me all I want —
JW: Well, I’ve had to refer to this because I can’t remember it.
MH: No.
JW: I highlighted all the areas that were Bomber Command.
MH: Yeah. Yeah. No that’s great. Jim, can I thank you for giving your time? You’ve talked for about an hour and a half then. That’s brilliant.
JW: Well, I’m afraid that’s twenty two years.
MH: You’ve done very well to keep it —
JW: Of RAF.
MH: Yeah. So, so thank you very much. Thank you for all your service and thank you for your time today. The time is 12.48. I’m going to turn the recorder off in a second. I just need you to sign a form and then you two guys —
JW: Right.
MH: Can go and get dinner because I suppose you’re hungry. So thank you very much for your time and thank you very much for, for letting me speak to you today.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jim Wildes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Martyn Horndern
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWildesJE180829, PWildesJE1801
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:33:21 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Jim was born in July 1923 in Burton on Trent and was the eldest of six children. His father served in the First World War. When Jim left school aged 14, he joined the Boys Brigade which had a Royal Air Force section and he had the chance to fly in a Tiger Moth. He trained to be an apprentice joiner and carpenter and worked with his grandfather who was a master joiner. He then joined Sharp Bros & Knight, timber and joinery manufacturers. When he was about 17, the Boys Brigade sent him to RAF Cardington for an air crew interview, which he failed due to ear problems. He then took the exam and was recommended to be a voluntary reserve.
When Jim was about 18, he was called up to go to RAF Halton for aircraft training, after which he was sent for further training at RAF Abingdon Operational Training Unit on Hampden and Witney aircraft. He was then sent back to RAF Halton to do a fitter course and then posted to 23 Operational Training Unit at RAF Pershore working on Wellingtons. After training Jim became a leading aircraftman. In September 1943 Jim was posted to 206 Squadron on the Wirral for about two weeks. The outfit totalled about 1,000 people from the Air Force, Army and Navy. His unit was then sent to the Liverpool docks to join the troop ship Laconia heading for Bangor and then on to Azores where 8206 Maintenance Unit built an Air Force station and runway. They stayed in tents with eight people for up to a year. Over Christmas Jim was in a Portuguese hospital for about three days with a broken finger. The unit went to Casablanca then to Cornwall just before D-Day. He was put on night shift at RAF St Mawgan with 206 Squadron working on Liberators. Following a trip to Scotland they were posted at Dundee with an air salvaging and servicing unit. Here he was made acting corporal and worked with 31 Dakota Squadron. When the war ended, he was flown to Singapore, got a boat to Southampton and was discharged to complete his apprenticeship as a joiner. Jim re-joined the Air Force and went back to RAF Swinderby for four years working on Wellingtons. There he met his future wife. In 1951 the unit went to Singapore to work on Sunderlands before being posted back home. Jim left in 1966 and worked for AV Roe until joining ICL in a management job.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Lincolnshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Wirral
Scotland
Scotland--Dundee
Azores
North Africa
Morocco
Morocco--Casablanca
Singapore
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1943-09
1943-12
1966
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
10 OTU
206 Squadron
23 OTU
31 Squadron
B-17
B-24
C-47
ground personnel
Hampden
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Cardington
RAF Halton
RAF Pershore
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Swinderby
Sunderland
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/785/9340/PTurnerHA1801.1.jpg
ee4d9c570a3678bd6343b3c5957fb700
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/785/9340/ATurnerHA180829.1.mp3
e8342d61f314b839367caf2cfbcc9535
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Turner, Bert
Herbert Alan Turner
H A Turner
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bert Turner (b. 1923, 1607412 Royal Air Force). He completed 31 bombing and supply operations as a flight engineer with 196 Squadron. He was shot down twice.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Turner, HA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MH: We’re now running. So, we just had Bert, thank you for giving your time up and also to Peter for giving his time up as well. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command. The interviewer is Martyn Hordern, that’s me. The interviewee is Herbert Turner. The interview is taking place at the Tri-Services and Veteran’s Support Centre, Hassell Street, Newcastle, Staffordshire. Also present is Peter Batkin, a friend of Bert. The date is the 29th of August 2018. So, we’ve obviously just, when we’ve asked you Peter, Bert sorry that your date of birth was the 23rd of December 1923. Where were you born?
BT: London.
MH: Whereabouts in London?
BT: 99 Ledbury Road, Paddington.
MH: Paddington.
BT: I think it’s Paddington. I wouldn’t be sure.
MH: No.
BT: It’s either Paddington or Kensington.
MH: What sort of family did you come from? A large family, a small family?
BT: Mum and dad and six kids.
MH: And where did you —
BT: I was the youngest but one.
MH: Right. I’m just opening my bottle of water of here so apologies for the fizz. Had your dad served in the First World War?
BT: Yes, he was in the RAF, in the RFC.
MH: Right.
BT: As it was then. I found a photograph the other night of my dad in his tropical kit for the Dardanelles.
MH: Right. So he’d served at Gallipoli.
BT: Hmmn?
MH: In Gallipoli. The Dardanelles. Wasn’t it Gallipoli, yeah?
BT: Ahum.
MH: James, dad was in Gallipoli as well.
BT: He, yeah, my dad and his three brothers fought in the First World War.
MH: So, what was life like growing up in the 1920s in London?
BT: We were alright. We probably, practically lived in Kensington Gardens and the parks and that. And they say, they say it was the hungry years. I didn’t know. I never went hungry. We always had something on the table. Mum was main cook and that was it. We, I went to school at St Stephens in Paddington. Did all my schooling there from the time I was three ‘til I was fourteen. Then I got a, I started work. I worked at Lyons in Cadby Hall, as an office lad. I didn’t like that. Went to McVities Biscuit factory and I finished up in the London Co -op as a delivery boy until I joined up.
MH: So —
BT: And that —
MH: At that point you were you were sort of like as I say a young teenager just before the war started.
BT: Yeah. Well, we in the Scouts and the Cubs and then I transferred to the ATC. 46F Squadron in Kensington. I’m trying to think. It must have been what? Nineteen 1940, 1939 I suppose, I joined the ATC. Of course, we went all through the blitz. But as, as I remember it all I ever wanted to do was fly. That was the be all and end all. I mean Ball and Mannock and all of those, they were my heroes and —
MH: And where did that come from. Do you know that?
BT: I’ve no idea because nobody [laugh] nobody else in the family wanted it but my my idea was I wanted to go straight in to the Air Force as a lad. A boy. And my mum wasn’t having that. Only rogues and vagabonds were served, went in the Services.
MH: What was your dad’s view having served in the First War?
BT: Dad never, dad never argued with mum. They were both short, small people. Mum was just under five foot and dad was just over five foot. About five foot two. But only slight people. Very. But I can’t remember them falling out. They never fell out in front of us.
MH: No.
BT: I’m not saying they didn’t fall out but —
MH: So so you mentioned —
BT: A pretty, a pretty average sort of life.
MH: Yeah.
BT: It was a family and that was it.
MH: How did, how did the Blitz affect you because obviously you were in London and it’s 1940?
BT: Not a, not a lot. We used to go, we used to go out fire watching at the shop in Barlby Road. We were, we used to go messaging with the ARP and that sort of thing. But it never seemed to, I know it sounds ridiculous but it didn’t seem to affect life.
MH: No.
BT: It, life went on.
MH: Yeah. But you could see the after affects I assume of the raids.
BT: You’d get up in the morning and there had been a bomb here or a bomb there sort of thing and you saw different things I mean, like toilets hanging on a wall and that sort of thing. It seemed remarkable. But my, my life just seemed to carry on sort of thing until I was seventeen and a half and then I went to Acton and volunteered. And mother wasn’t very pleased about that. ‘You’ll go quick enough but —’ she said, ‘They’ll send for you quick enough.’
MH: Yeah.
BT: I said, ‘Yes, but I want to go in the Air Force, mum.’ So, that was it.
MH: Did she have to sign you in at that age or were you old enough to sign yourself?
BT: No. I signed myself in [pause] and mother didn’t speak to me for ages. She didn’t, didn’t want to know. We’d already got, I’d already got two brothers in. One in the Air Force and one in the Army and mum said that was enough. But I said, ‘It’s got to come mum. I’ve got to go.’ So that was it.
MH: And the truth be told you wanted to go though.
BT: I wanted to go. Yes. Oh yes, I was. I thought it was going to be all over before I had my chance. But I went to Acton and volunteered and I had to go to Oxford for three days for, you know I don’t know what they called it, an interview with, and exams. And they told me I could go in as a flight mech and [pause] I could study to be a pilot if I wanted. Fair enough. And they called me up on August the 2nd 1942. I went to, from [pause] went to Penarth for seven days where they kitted us out. And from Penarth we went to Blackpool where I did my square bashing and, in civvy digs. We were there ‘til December I think it was and we marched out to Halton in December ’42.
MH: And that’s when you went to a, to a squadron then, did you?
BT: No. No. That was, that was training school.
MH: Right.
BT: I started my flight mech’s course and they put a notice up on orders. They wanted flight engineers. So we, a lot of us volunteered and we had to go down to London for our medicals and I was accepted. And about February we were posted to St Athans in Wales where we did our flight engineer’s course. And [pause] we had a funny experience there. We were all out on the, not the outside the hangars where the school was for a NAAFI break and all at once somebody says, about four or five hundred blokes stood around and all at once somebody shouted, ‘Jerry.’ And everybody drops to the ground and looked and three, three German aircraft flew across. The only thing was they were wearing RAF roundels [laughs] They were captured aircraft. But that was amusing. And then it was 1943, mother died while I was at St Athan and that was a blow. We [pause] we didn’t get over that. But I finished up, I passed out at St Athan. I think I got about sixty five, seventy percent. It was a pass anyhow through and I got my tapes and my brevet. We moved from St Athan to 1657 Con Unit at Stradishall, just outside Newmarket and while I was there I crewed up and met my crew, Mark Azouz, John Greenwell, Leo Hartman, John McQuiggan, Teddy Roper, Pete Findlay and myself. And we started flying Stirling 1s and we did our day circuits and bumps. Started night circuits and bumps. And we did a couple of circuits and bumps with the instructors on board and the skipper screened, turned around, he said, ‘I’m getting out,’ he said. ‘You take it around for one yourself and put it to bed.’ And my instructor said, ‘If he’s getting out I’m getting out. You’re on your own.’ [laughs] I thought fair enough. Off we went. Undercarriage up and away we went. Anyhow, skipper said, ‘Undercarriage down.’ And the undercarriage wouldn’t play.
MH: And this was the first time you’d flown solo as a crew.
BT: Yes. So well, we did all we could think of which I don’t suppose there was much. Told them downstairs that we were having trouble with the undercart. Anyhow, we eventually, we had to try to wind it down by hand. We got one leg down but we couldn’t get the other one. So, we got one leg down and that was tighter. They decided that we were going to have to land at Waterbeach. Then halfway to Waterbeach they decided the best thing was to land it on Newmarket Race Course. So, skipper put her down on Newmarket Race Course.
MH: And you got the one leg back up again.
BT: One leg up and one we, they managed, we managed to break the lock on the starboard, no, port, port leg and the skipper took her in and we landed and I think she was, she was a mess. And we all got out and climbed out and we were all standing on one of them rings and the ambulance driver came up and looked at us and he counted us and he turned around and, ‘What, nobody hurt?’ And we, nobody had a scratch so that was it. And then we were called in the flight office the next day and wingco was very annoyed. He told us we’d broken his aeroplane. That was, that was the end of that. Anyhow, we got away with it and we finished up we were posted to 90 Squadron at Tuddenham just before Christmas and we did, I don’t know, it was six or seven trips. We did a mine laying to Sylt, Kiel and that sort of thing and then at the time they were busy bombing the French factories for the Doodlebugs and that. And we did a couple of them. And then they posted us away to Tarrant Rushton to go glider towing and para dropping. We went [pause] we went to Tarrant Rushton, we were only there for oh, a couple of weeks, a couple of three weeks as I remember it. It doesn’t, doesn’t gel very easily but I don’t think we operated from there. We, we took over Keevil from the Americans in around about March ’44 and we were glider towing and doing supply drops in France for the SOE.
MH: What sort of stuff were you taking over to the SOE? Did you know what you were taking?
BT: No. No. It was all in canisters or baskets or anything. Occasionally we would have a couple of bods we’d take over. SAS people initially. A lot of them were Poles.
MH: Were there, was those trips quiet trips or —
BT: Sometimes, it was but we did [pause] D-Day came up and they decided that we’d got to, all aircrew had got to fly with sidearms so they issued us all with .38 pistols and you can imagine nineteen, twenty year old kids playing cowboys and Indians. But we woke up one morning and went out to an aircraft and they’d painted the white stripes for the invasion. That was, all came as such a surprise that nobody knew anything about it until it was done. But the mechs were standing on the wings painting these blooming white stripes with brooms. Then D-Day came up. We were ready to go on the 5th. But no. We were ready to go on the 4th and it was cancelled. And then they gave the order that we were going on the 5th and we took the paratroops over D-Day on the, we took off on the 5th you know.
MH: Yeah.
BT: Early morning to —
MH: What planes were you flying then?
BT: I beg —
MH: What planes were you flying then?
BT: Stirling 4s. Yeah. We took twenty paratroops over, dropped them off and that was it.
MH: What was that like that you were flying across then?
BT: Do you know, do you know Peter will tell you, I’ve said this so many times before. It was one of the quietest trips I remember.
MH: No flak. No —
BT: We, we saw barely anything. It, it surprised, it, it sounds ridiculous when you first say it but as far as I was, we were concerned it was one of the quietest of our trips.
MH: And the paratroopers. Do you remember what —
BT: The paratroops went in.
MH: What battalion were they from?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: Do you remember what battalion they were from or [pause] Do you remember what —
BT: No. No. No. No, we didn’t have a lot to do with them. Chatted to them and all this, that and the other, you know.
MH: British I assume.
BT: Yes. Yes. It, it was just another trip. And then we did a trip to France and a delivery for the SOE. Arms and whatever and we got there and when you went on these SOE things all you were looking for is five bonfires and we found it. And when we got there Jerry was waiting for us and it got nasty. First, we went in, dropped what we got, came out of it. There was a light flak gun busy after us but we got away with it and he never touched us and we flew in and checked for a hang up. Well, on a Stirling there’s a step and it’s across along the width of the bomb bay and the bomb bay on a Stirling is three different sections. That’s why it can’t take big bombs. And in this step there was three little glass windows only about the size of a tin. You know, a pea tin top and you held a torch against one end and someone looked at the other and if they could see the torch you hadn’t got, the light, you’d got no hang-ups. If they couldn’t you’d got a hang-up. And we had three hang-ups of containers.
MH: Just hadn’t been released from their old —
BT: They hadn’t dropped. So it was skipper turned around and said, ‘Well, they never touched us that time. We’ll take them back.’ Which thinking about it afterwards was a stupid idea but we didn’t think about that at the time and I said, ‘Well, somebody will have to give me a hand.’ I said, ‘Two of them I can drop myself but the other one’s the other end of the aircraft.’ So, ‘Well, McGuigan can drop the other one.’ So, fair enough. And when you drop them you just pull a bolt back and they drop. But they drop without a parachute. A parachute won’t open for some reason. I don’t know why. So anyhow, skipper goes and we go around and just as Leo said, ‘Drop them,’ dropped a, Jerry hit us and he put the starboard outer out of action, damaged the starboard inner and peppered us a bit. None of us were touched. Fair enough. We came out but the skipper shouted for me and I went up and he turned around and said, ‘The starboard outer won’t feather.’ I said, ‘Well, use the —’ [pause] he said, ‘The starboard’s running out.’ ‘Feather it.’ He said, ‘It won’t feather.’ I said, ‘Oh.’ So I said, ‘Get Pete out of his turret,’ because the torque on the prop on the starboard outer could possibly take the rear tail up. The fin and rudder. So we got Pete out of his turret and just as we got Pete out the props flew off somewhere over France and we flew back. We landed, landed at a place called Colerne just outside Bath. And they were, they were surprised to see us naturally so, but they were flying Mosquitoes and Spitfires. And I remember the CO there turned around and very unpolitely, turned round at the skipper and said, ‘I don’t know whether you’re a fool or a hero bringing this abortion in here.’ But anyhow the skipper got a DFC for it and we went back to Keevil.
MH: What, what was it like? You’ve had, you said your early flights were fairly sort of just dropping mines and that. I take it you’d never been really shot at had you in those first flights before you did your —
BT: Oh, we’d been shot at but not as badly if you know. It was just part of the —
MH: Yeah.
BT: Somehow or another it [pause] it didn’t seem to be a part of the equation that you got [pause] I don’t know why.
MH: And, and so and then you go to drop these supplies off and you go back round again.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And then you get hit.
BT: My point, thinking about it afterwards it was supposed to be a secret mission [laughs] Well, Jerry’s there shooting at you. These blokes have got to pick, down there have got to pick these containers up and they’re not light by any manner of means and disperse and get them off and Jerry’s on the doorstep. So all you’re doing really is handing it to Jerry.
MH: And what, what were your thoughts when the plane got hit?
BT: What can I do?
MH: Did you ever think you’d never get back?
BT: No. It never. Do you know, I can’t remember that at all. In any, I got, in any event I could never think of, it never entered my head that we were going to get hurt. Then after that it was we did a, there was an Operation Tonga as I remember it and it was a massive air drop to the south of France of containers for the French. Free French. That was, I think that was the only time that we flew then with other aircraft at daylight. Then I got married. I married a WAAF on the station. We got married on the Thursday. We had three days leave in London. We got, came, we went back and they shut the gates for Arnhem. And on the 17th of September we took a, took a Horsa to Arnhem and we went again on the Monday and it wasn’t bad. It wasn’t bad at all. The opposition we met was practically negligible. On the Tuesday we had apparently there was Air Ministry issued an order that all intelligence officers were to fly a mission. Well, my skipper was a Jew, as was the bomb aimer and the intelligence officer we had was a Jew so I suppose we would keep it in the family and he decided to come with us and of course they just gave him a helmet with a mic and a, earphones on. No, no oxygen mask or anything. And I used to go up second dickie when bomb aimer went down to the bomb aiming position but he’s sitting in my seat. So I’m halfway down the fuselage and in a Stirling that’s it. You can’t see anything. You’ve got to stick your head out the astrodome to look around sort of thing and flying along quite happily. Go to, got to the [unclear] where we turned in to the target and we were flying along quite happily and all at once, ‘There’s flak over there.’ [pause] ‘There’s flak.’ The skipper turned around. He said. ‘There’s flak where?’ He says, ‘Over there.’ He said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘That’s port.’ He says, ‘And the other side’s starboard.’ ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘And it’s a long way away don’t worry about it.’ I thought to myself things are getting tricky. Jerry’s getting naughty. So I went down and stuck my head out the astrodome. Oh, well away in the distance is a few bursts of flak. We went in and we dropped our Horsa and went back home again. And then we went again on the Tuesday and Jerry got organised and it was rough. We had a rough and we were jocking through this lot the skipper turned around. He says, ‘Flak,’ he says, ‘I wish I’d got him with me now.’ He said, ‘I’d show him flak.’ We got away with it. They knocked us about a bit and we got a few holes in but we were fair enough and we, we got back and that was our thirtieth so we thought that’s it. No more. A rest. And on the Wednesday night they told us we’d got to do another one on Thursday. We’re short of crews. Fair enough. So on the Thursday morning we goes out to the aircraft and the skipper walks along and his scratching cats are missing and he’s got a bar on. What’s this? So, he anyhow, the skipper’s got his commission. Pilot officer. He got awarded a, promulgated with the DFC same day. So, we’re on for Arnhem, Thursday. Go out to the aircraft. Run it up. We couldn’t get revs and boost on. I think it was the outboard inner. One of them was playing up anyway. Doesn’t matter. Couldn’t get it to turn. ‘Take the spare aircraft.’ So you had to move everything that we were carrying to the spare aircraft and the rest of the lads had taken off so we were about twenty five, thirty minutes behind them taking off and skipper said to Leo, ‘Cut corners. Let’s get back with the lads and we can go over together.’ But we got there just as the lads were coming out and we had to go in on our own and it was rough. We got shot up a bit and it happened. And while we were over Arnhem this is a bit cheeky but still I went second dickie. McQuiggan, the wireless op went down the back because we were carrying baskets. Big baskets that had to go out and two Army dispatchers were flying with us and McQuiggan went down the back to supervise that.
MH: Were the dispatcher’s jobs to push the stuff off?
BT: Yeah.
MH: Was that their job?
BT: Yeah. Well, the Stirling had a big hatch at the bottom, in the, at the bottom of the fuselage near the tail where the paratroops dropped out and we used to have to push a, an A frame down and peg it in to stop the paratroop bags wrapping around the elevators. So McQuiggan’s down there doing that and we went through and as I say Jerry knocked us about a bit and we got through and McGuigan come up from the back and I went back to my own station and McGuigan come up and he, he’s covered in blood from head to foot. I looked and I thought where do you put a dressing? And I don’t know, ‘Where are you hit, Mac?’ He turned around and he said, ‘The elsan.’ I said, ‘The elsan?’ A shell must have burst under the aircraft, and the elsan, the chemical toilet is held down by three bolts and it had taken off and it had thrown it all over McQuiggan. And elsanal fluid is the same colour as Jeyes fluid and he’s —
MH: He’s not covered in blood.
BT: Anyhow, we got, we’re flying along and skipper asked Ginger for a course to Brussels. We’re flying on two engines. Well, we’re moving on two engines and I looked out the astrodome and I’ll never forget it. I looked up and there’s six fighters and I thought they were Tempests. And I wouldn’t mistake a 109 for a Tempest. A 190, yes. And I still say they were 190s. The Air Ministry said there were no 190s flying [unclear] Anyhow, they decided that we were going to be their meat and they, they came for us. Well, the rear gunner shot the lead aircraft down. The lead fighter blew up. I saw it with my own eyes. But then they got nasty and skipper gave the order to abandon aircraft and we baled out over a place called Niftrik and we, the Army picked us up. We got landed, four of us finished up in a farm house in Holland and, but they gave us egg and bacon. Then the Royal Horse Artillery picked us up, took us back to their camp, give us a night’s kip and put us in a lorry to go back to Belgium. And just as we were moving off, well we got to a crossroads somewhere or other and the Redcaps, Army Redcaps waiting there. ‘You’ve got to leave this and get out, sir.’ So we got out and we were lay in a ditch for I don’t know and in the finish we, we were walking across a field in Holland and the Americans picked us up and took us in to Veghel. And we got in to a Veghel, we spent the night there. And the next morning the Green Howards relieved that and the paras were coming out of Arnhem and I can’t think of the general, was it who was on the ground but he came out and there was a staff car waiting for him and he had, he went in the side car err in the staff car and before, there were five actually. Another crew bloke I don’t know he was now got in with us and we went in that to Brussels. We spent the night in Brussels and flew back to England the next day. We got in to England on the Sunday. The put us in a coach to take us to the Airworks in London and of course it was almost passing my home so I turned around to the driver and said, ‘You can drop me here. I’m going to see my dad.’ And, ‘You can’t.’ I said. ‘I’m going to.’ I said. So, I got out and I’m carrying a box like a wooden box, a tomato box with peaches and grapes from, and apples from Holland. And I got out the car at the, on the Western Avenue and I stopped a bloke in a car and he took me home [laughs] And I gave him a peach and oh he was quite happy. And I, we lived in quite a big house in London in Chesterton Road at the time and you had to go all round the house and in through the scullery door at the back and the dark passage from the scullery in to the kitchen. And just as I walked up the passage my dad come out of the kitchen and he took one look and passed out. And my brother was with him, he was on leave and he came out and he said, ‘What are you doing here? You’re dead.’ Thanks very much. They’d had telegrams, “Missing believed killed.” Because none of the boys had seen us. Seen us bale out.
MH: No.
BT: I had something to eat. My dad took me to Paddington Station. Well, my dad paid my fare back to Keevil. I never had that money off the Air Force either [laughs] And I’m standing on Paddington station, a sergeant. My trousers were ripped, I’d got no collar and tie, I was wearing a bit of orange supply chute around my neck, got no cap. I was wearing one flying boot and one flying boot that I’d cut down because I’d got an ankle wound and two MPs parading up and down in front of me and clearly they could see [laughs] And eventually they come across to me. ‘Sergeant, you’d best come with us.’ And they took me to the RTO and the RTO officer gave me a bed and they woke me up with a cup of cocoa. Put me on a train for Keevil and when I got back to Keevil of course I’d got no money. I got no money for the bus. One of the airman had to pay my fare. The bus driver wouldn’t let me on the bus without the fare. So, when the airmen paid my fare and I got back to Keevil and I thought well, I’d better go and see the wife, so —
MH: Bearing in mind you’d only been married a few days at that point.
BT: Yeah. I’d been married a week exactly when we were shot down and she’d been told that she was a widow. So anyhow, I walked in, up to the cookhouse and she come running out and the first thing she said to me was, ‘You stink.’ ‘Thanks very much.’ Anyhow, I finished up, I went up the billet and had a wash and had a shower and went to sick bay to get my ankle dressed. Hospital. So they put in the blood wagon and sent me over to Ely. And I’d hopped all over Holland, I’d hopped halfway across England, I got out the ambulance. I had to hop all over the hospital and they x-rayed it and all the rest and, yes. Fair enough. Nothing wrong. Dressed it and put it back and I went back to Keevil in sick bay. Well, my wife had to go in hospital for an operation about three days later so I turned around to the quack, I said, ‘Can I go in the blood wagon to see the wife at Ely?’ ‘You can’t,’ he said, ‘You’re, you’re a stretcher case.’ I thought thanks very much. So we, anyhow we finished up we stayed at, I was in dock for ten days I think and on the Saturday they let me out and I got, I was sent on survivor’s leave. And my wife came with me, and we had to travel from Keevil to Stoke on Trent. We got to Bristol and we had to change stations at Bristol. Anyhow, we got on the train and like all wartime trains it was packed and I’m standing there and the porter slung a case in and of course hit my ankle and didn’t know what it had done at the time of course. But I finished up the journey sitting on kit bags and God knows what. And when we got to my wife’s home my wife took the dressing off and had a look and it had knocked the scab of the wound. So, anyhow, I had my leave and went back and while we were on leave we, they’d moved from Keevil. I think they’d gone from Keevil to Shepherds Grove. And we got, when I got to Shepherds Grove we, I went and reported sick and I’m back in bed again. And anyhow it all went well in the finish and that was it.
MH: Could we just go back to when you got shot down and you parachuted out of a plane had you ever parachuted before? Had any training to parachute?
BT: Never had any training at all apart from someone saying, ‘Well, you put the chute on here and you pull this. Oh no, we never had parachute drill. We had dinghy drill but I never, we never had —
MH: What was dingy drill?
BT: Eh? They used to take you to the local swimming pool.
MH: Baths.
BT: Swimming baths, and they’d throw a seven man dinghy in the water upside down and you wear a flying suit and a Mae West and you’d got to go in there, swim in, swim to the dinghy and turn it upright. It’s quite a job and it was. On the bottom of the dinghy there’s two hand holds and you have to hold these hand holds, pull them towards you as much as you can and then jump on the bottom of the dinghy to turn it over.
MH: Right.
BT: You finish up underneath it and that was, that’s the only dinghy drill we did.
MH: And what height did you bale out at then?
BT: Around about three to four thousand feet.
MH: And did the parachute open straight away or did you have to have a rip cord?
BT: On, on rip cord.
MH: And did anything happen on the way down?
BT: Yes. Jerry tried to kill us.
MH: Would you mind just sort of giving a bit more detail to that?
BT: Well, we all, we all baled out. The rear gunner was killed in the aircraft. The navigator went out the front and I went out of the parachute hatch and we were shaking hands on the way down and a Jerry fighter decided we were his meat and it was very naughty. But he didn’t notice the Thunderbolt behind him and the Thunderbolt, American Thunderbolt shot him down. But they shot the skipper. The skipper was killed.
MH: On the way down.
BT: On the way down on his ‘chute. Well, he was wounded. He died in hospital. So I was told.
MH: And when, when the Germans were flying at you could you feel the bullets whizzing past or, or was you just, is that what —
BT: It’s no good saying yes.
MH: No.
BT: I can’t remember.
MH: But you knew what they were trying to do?
BT: We knew what, as I say the navigator and I, Ginger and I we flew, we dropped together. We dropped in a field together and because [pause] Germans wear field grey, well, we were lying there in a field and there is a grey bloke, a grey dressed bloke dressed, heading for us. And Ginger turned around, he said, ‘Bert, shoot him.’ I said, ‘You shoot him.’ He said, [laughs] ‘I’ve lost my gun.’ And it was a good job we didn’t shoot him. He was a Dutchman wearing one of them navy blue boiler suits that had been washed and washed [laughs] and just looked like Jerry field grey.
MH: So, that point where you dropped down were you, were you behind German lines then or were you —
BT: It was a very fluid situation. Nobody knew who was where or any, if you understand what I mean. There was no front line or, it was all the time I was in Holland you couldn’t say where you were. You were in safe ground sort of thing.
MH: Yeah.
BT: It, one minute you’d be talking to your own Army sort of thing. The next minute there were Jerries but [pause] we saw, we saw a Jerry, a Jerry Tiger tank. It came looking round. Smelling around. But we had nothing to with the job. Didn’t get involved with it.
MH: What was, what was going through your mind then? You’ve been shot down, you’ve been parachuted, the Germans are trying to kill you on the way down, you’re now not quite sure where you are. What was going through this young man’s mind?
BT: I don’t know what was going through my mind. All I knew, all I could say, think was we’d got to get to the Army. We’ve got to find it [pause] I know it sounds ridiculous but I can’t remember being scared. I should have been. I should have been but I can’t remember being scared. At times now I have nightmares but it didn’t seem to work then.
MH: No. I take it you weren’t given any training how to, you know if you parachuted over enemy territory how to evade the enemy.
BT: Pardon?
MH: Were you given any training to evade the enemy?
BT: We were given lectures. You know. What to do and what not to do but it —
MH: And how did that bear out in reality when you actually got there? Did it actually make sense?
BT: It didn’t bear out because there was no one to help us if you understand what I mean. We didn’t, we didn’t run in to civilians. The only time I saw any civilians during that period was when we landed and we were taken to a farmhouse. They took us. We went in to the farmhouse and there must have been the district in this farmhouse trying to, wanting us, getting round to us you know and they couldn’t do enough for us.
MH: No.
BT: But when, once the Army picked us up I don’t, I don’t think we spoke to a civilian until we got to Brussels.
MH: And your ankle injury. How did that, what was that? What had you done to yourself?
BT: Well, the only thing [pause] I don’t know. I was the only one who was scratched apart from Pete. Pete was killed. I didn’t realise I’d been touched until we landed and then when we dropped off I felt it. But whether [pause] the only thing I could think of was a piece of shrapnel. But where it went heaven knows. There was no, nothing there. Still got the scar for it.
MH: I can imagine.
BT: It wouldn’t heal. Once the scab had been knocked off it wouldn’t heal and I was in dock oh quite a while. I remember the Group MO came to, to visit and he looked at it and they were, our, our, the squadron doc was looking after me and he turned around and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ And he said, ‘You can’t do anything else,’ he says. ‘Just keep pouring it in.’ Yeah. But at the time I was under the weather. I was having boils and I had a Whitlow on my finger and that was, that was amusing. I I went home on leave with a Whitlow and that night, oh God I was in agony and my dad came in to me and he said, ‘What’s the matter?’ And I said, ‘My finger.’ ‘He says, ‘Go to the hospital in the morning.’ So I went to Du Cane Road Hospital and they had a look. ‘Oh yes. Sit down. Sit. I’ll send someone to you.’ So I sat down and two blokes came and they were rugby three quarterbacks I think. They were both about seven foot tall and fifteen stone like Peter and they said, ‘Are you the airman with a Whitlow?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Come on.’ And Du Cane Road is a teaching hospital and they took me in a theatre and there are all these seats up there and we sat down at this table and he turned around and he said, ‘Put your finger —', he put a block on the table, ‘Put your finger on there,’ he said, and he sprayed it with some blooming stuff and it was, yes, and he was chatting away quite happily and he picked up a scalpel and he banged on my finger and it just went thud and then he promptly cut it all the flipping way down and wrapped and turned round, ‘Come on.’ And we went to the plaster of Paris place and they put a splint on on my hand. Then they bound my hand up like a boxing glove and I said, ‘How can I get my jacket on?’ Fair enough. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We’ll pin your jacket up, put you in a sling. Fair enough. Then he gave me two pills. He said, ‘You’ll want them tonight.’ So, I said, ‘Thanks very much.’ ‘Now, you can go home on the bus.’ ‘Thank you very much.’ So anyway, I went out of the hospital on the bus and I’m standing at the bus stop and these two old ladies standing there. I heard one say to the other, ‘That poor boy,’ she says, ‘I wonder how he got his arm — [laughs] I thought to myself, I wonder if they would smile if they knew it was a Whitlow. But that was it and then for the next four months nobody wanted to know me. I used to go back to camp and oh, nothing. Go away. Go on leave. And I was on leave on and off for about four months. Then what, I don’t know how true it is or what it is but they were on about something that we’d been behind enemy lines and we’d come back and if we went again we could be shot. What it is I don’t know but anyhow, it was—
MH: They didn’t want to be associated with you just in case you got shot down again or something.
BT: No. Anyhow, we they decided that we could [pause] I stayed on leave and I was home on leave with the wife at night. Just got in bed. Gone to bed. The doorbell goes so I go to the door. ‘Yes?’ Telegraph boy. Well, I’d still got a brother in the Army and I thought, Derek. No. “Flight Sergeant Turner.” Oh. “Return to unit.” Oh. The next day I go back to unit. ‘Wing Commander Baker wants you.’ ‘Oh, right.’ Goes to see Wing Commander Baker. ‘Ah, Turner. I want to do some flying.’ ‘Yes,’ What’s that to do with me? ‘But my navigator and my flight engineer are sick.’ I said, ‘Oh.’ ‘Well, Greenwell’s decided he’ll fly with me. You don’t mind do you?’ Well, how the hell do you say no to a wing commander? So, ‘Yes, sir.’ So fair enough. ‘We’re doing a cross country tomorrow.’ Fair enough. So we do a cross country with Wing Commander Baker. Now, my pilot was good. I’m not saying Wing Commander Baker was bad but my pilot was good. And the Stirling that they got ready for us they filled with Australian petrol. So, when we come in to land we’re down the runway. Oh dear. A few nights later he decides we’re doing a bullseye on Leeds so we do a bullseye on Leeds and they put the same petrol in the plane and we come down [pause] oh dear. And Wing Commander Baker turned round, he said, ‘That’s twice I’ve done that.’ And Ginger said, ‘Yes, I know sir. We were with you both times.’ ‘No need to be nasty, Greenwell.’ ‘No sir.’ Turner. 19th of February the tannoy goes. ‘Flight Sergeant Turner report to Wing Commander Baker.’ ‘Yes sir.’ Down to Wing Commander Baker. ‘Ahh Turner. My navigator is better so we don’t need Greenwell.’ So I said ‘Yes, sir.’ ‘But Morgan is still bad.’ ‘Yes sir.’ ‘Well, I want to operate.’ Oh dear. That’s a bad idea. ‘Yes.’ ‘You don’t mind do you?’ ‘No sir.’ ‘Right.’ So, December, February the 20th and we know the war’s nearly over and they’re trying to keep Jerry this side, this side of the Rhine. They don’t want him to reform on the other side of the Rhine so they’re knocking down all the bridges on the river to stop him and we got the job. So we flew to Holland and we attacked this bridge at the Waal. On the Waal at a place called Rees and it was a nightmare. It was the worst night. The worst trip I ever had. And then just to cap it all Jerry jet jobs were on the job. So we were shot up by the flak and shot down by a Jerry fighter.
MH: Jet fighter that shot you down was it?
BT: And out of the, out of an aeroplane I jumped again. I landed in a pig sty up to my flipping knees and I didn’t know whether I was in Germany or Holland or where I was. I’d no idea. I was on my own. And then a soldier came marching through the blooming door and he said, ‘Where is he?’ I said, ‘Who are you after?’ Oh, he said, ‘You’re English.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘I was told it was a Jerry.’ I said, ‘No.’ So we went back. I went back to them and I was, I was no how. I remember him giving me a glass of rum and they took us back to a place called Tilburg, I think it was. and flew us home in an air ambulance. But Wing Commander Baker and Flight Sergeant Gordon were killed. And that was the end of my flying career.
MH: What were your thoughts the second time you floated down from a plane?
BT: I couldn’t tell you what I thought. I don’t know. I don’t, honestly. As far as I know I was terrified and [pause] at —
MH: What sort of height did you drop from this time? Similar sort of height?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: What sort of height did you parachute from this time?
BT: About seven thousand feet.
MH: Oh, that was a bit further up.
BT: And we were pretty high.
MH: I take it the two that lost their lives were they did they lose their life in the plane or as a result of the plane crashing? Didn’t they get out or —
BT: I don’t know. I don’t know. All I remember is Baker telling us to bale out. The navigator, bomb aimer and the wireless op and myself got out.
MH: What was it like suddenly seeing these jet powered planes? I take it you’d heard about them before then or —
BT: No. It was the nearest thing I could put it down to it’s the same as looking at one of these sci-fi comics. You know. It just didn’t seem real.
MH: No. Extremely quick.
BT: Hmmn?
MH: Were they flying extremely quick?
BT: It seemed they were there and gone you see before you looked, you know. It [pause] it’s, it’s an episode I can’t really remember and I’m not sorry about that.
MH: No. I can appreciate that. So, at that point you then become a twice holder of the Caterpillar Club badge.
BT: I I never got the second one.
MH: Didn’t you? Oh right.
BT: No. I did get the first.
MH: Oh right.
BT: The first, on my jacket. Oh God. Excuse me.
MH: And I take it, do they come from the manufacturers of the parachutes?
BT: The first one [pause] this one the adjutant of the squadron applied for it and got it for all of us. But the second one I heard nothing at all.
MH: Can I take a picture of that before we finish, Bert? If that’s ok?
[pause]
MH: So they owe you one then.
BT: Yeah, they owe me, they owe me the train fare from blooming Paddington to Keevil. Well, my dad my dad paid.
MH: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that was the, that was it for your flying then after that second one.
BT: Yeah. I finished flying then. I went to [pause] I went to Gillingham in Kent in the office. I was tootling around there and the Warrant Officer Powell came to me one day. He said, ‘Ah, Mr Turner.’ I’ve got my WO for Arnhem. When I got back to Shepherd’s Grove, I think. Shepherd’s Grove. Not, yeah Shepherds Grove, the wing commander was a South African captain and he turned around and told, he said, and he turned around, he told me, ‘I’ve put you in for an award,’ he said, ‘They refused it. So you’re having your warrant. Money will do you more good anyhow.’ And that was it and I went to Gillingham and Warrant Officer Powell came to me. He says, ‘I’ve found a job for you.’ I said, ‘Oh, yes?’ ‘Yes.’ He says, ‘There’s an orderly room at Roborough.’ He said, ‘I want you to go there and run it.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m not —’ ‘Oh, you’ll manage.’ He said, ‘You’ll manage.’ He said, ‘You’re in charge.’ I said, ‘Am I in charge?’ He said, ‘You’re the only one.’ So I went to a little aerodrome just outside Plymouth. A place called Roborough, and I think it was run by ex-aircrew. Every, everywhere you looked there were aircrew that had finished. Of course, the war had finished and it was, it was, it was an eye opener. We went there and as I say I was orderly room clerk and station warrant officer. The CO was a chap called Hill. Henry Horace Hill. He was a flight lieutenant observer and he used to mess at Plymouth and he used to travel by motorbike and sidecar from Roborough to Plymouth.
MH: When did your demob come along then?
BT: Yeah. Then demob came and I went bus conducting. I went down the mines. I tried, I went to oh, TI Industries, Simplex and I couldn’t settle anywhere. I don’t know why. But then I went to a place Cartwright and Edwards to, on a pot bank. And I started dipping and finished up on the kilns and that was it. I finished up. I did thirty five years working for a pot bank.
MH: Any thought of going back to London? Was it always that your wife —
BT: It’s never bothered me. I like, I’ve been down to visits but when mum died the family broke up. It, of course the problem was we were all away from home at the time. I mean my brothers were in the Air Force, in the Army and I married as I say and I came up to Stoke on Trent. Derek married and he went to Manchester. We corresponded for a bit and then then somehow or other it, you know how it is. Things don’t go as you plan and we lost touch. I don’t know where any of my family are now [pause] No idea. But [pause] I haven’t, I don’t miss London at all.
MH: So when we just go back to when you, just for my benefit and I suppose the people who will listen to this interview. What was your, what did your job entail on the Stirling? What was your —
BT: Main, mainly you were watching petrol consumption and changing tanks.
MH: To balance the plane out and —
BT: No. For, a Stirling’s got fourteen petrol tanks.
MH: Right.
BT: At least. It can fit another six. I know it sounds stupid but it is. There’s a little bomb bay at the root of the wings and it’s room for three bombs. Or three petrol tanks in each.
MH: Each side.
BT: Wing each side. We had, one holds three hundred and twenty gallons, two hundred and forty and then as it gets towards the it’s [pause] [unclear] of petrol but you had to change tanks. But you always got rid of your small tanks first.
MH: Now then, you ended up flying, was it Stirling 4s was the last Mark you flew?
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
MH: Now, were they, how did they differ from the, I think you said you flew Stirling 1s at the start, didn’t you?
BT: Well, there was no front turret and there was no mid-upper turret on a Stirling 4. They took the turrets out. And there was a big hole cut towards the rear of the fuselage where the paratroops jumped or dropped out.
MH: And that, the plane was principally marked as a Mark 4 because they did it for parachutists and —
BT: Yeah.
MH: Dropping supplies.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And what have you.
BT: Yeah.
MH: So did you lose some of your crew from when you first started?
BT: Oh yes. We lost a mid-upper gunner. Yeah. A mid-upper gunner that we’d [pause] Teddy Roper. We lost him. I never heard what happened to Ted. He, he was an Essex boy as I remember. Essex or Kent. And he had a girlfriend Penny [ Lopey ]
MH: The things you remember.
BT: The things you think of.
MH: Yes. And did you keep in touch with any of your crewmates after the war?
BT: The last one, Leo. The last one.
MH: Yeah. Leo Hartman.
BT: Leo Hartman. He died at Christmas.
MH: Oh dear.
BT: Yes. I’ve got a copy of his logbook.
MH: Was that the logbook you mentioned to me earlier on when we first met?
BT: Hmmn?
MH: That you had lost your logbook.
BT: Yeah.
MH: And you said that you had a copy of one of your crewmate’s.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
MH: So, you kept in touch with Leo all the way through up until he passed away.
BT: Well, we did. Just Leo didn’t go on the last one. Leo. Leo, when we came back from Arnhem Leo went to London and he never, he never, he went to Uxbridge and stayed there ‘til the end of the war ‘til he was demobbed. But we kept in touch. I kept in touch with Pete Findlay until he died. But McQuiggan wasn’t interested and Ginger, the navigator he was too far away. He was up, he lived at Fencehouses in Durham.
MH: Right.
BT: That way. And we went in, he went to take up, to a pub. Became a landlord I believe. He got a DFM for the trip we did to France and he died of cancer. Thirty odd years. He was sixty something when he died. And I I met Pete [Bodes] brother and his wife.
MH: That was your rear gunner.
BT: Yeah.
MH: Was that a difficult meeting?
BT: Yes. They want particulars and it’s not nice. Did he get, did it hurt? I don’t think being hit by a cannon shell hurts. But, he had a girlfriend on the station, a WAAF and she had that you know that purple mark on her face.
MH: A birthmark.
BT: Yeah. And it was rather bad and she’d been up to, for some reason and [pause] and I had [pause] when you get talking like this it, it comes back.
MH: Like I said before if there are things you don’t want to talk about then just say.
BT: But, no. It [pause] it’ll pass.
MH: So, we’ve got all these thirty one, thirty two missions that you’d fly in the end.
BT: Thirty one. Yeah.
MH: What was life like in between? You watch these television films of, sort of flying boys down the pub and then back to reality.
BT: I get so cross at times when I watch these films. It’s, I mean I watch the Dambusters and I’m ready to hit someone.
MH: Because it’s not how it was.
BT: They get it so wrong. Well, I mean they’re, they’re supposed to have advisors and when they get the basics wrong it’s time to pack up. Now, you take the Dambusters. It’s nothing. It’s wrong, but it’s nothing. They’re having egg and bacon before they go. They sit down for a meal in the film. You didn’t have egg and bacon before you went. You had egg and bacon when you came back and blokes used to joke, ‘Can I have your egg if you don’t come back?’ And if you look, you watch there’s three Lancasters taking off in line abreast on a grass aerodrome. On a grass airfield. Carrying mines? They’d dig in.
MH: You’d take off one after the other on a hardstanding. A hard strip.
BT: Used tarmac runways. You know, I mean it’s only [pause]
MH: But that’s film for you, isn’t it?
BT: Yeah. Oh yeah.
MH: I think we’ve, we’re probably coming very close to the tape running out. Not that there’s a tape
BT: Yeah.
MH: But another fascinating hour and a half. Is there else that you think you need to tell me? You want to tell me.
BT: I don’t think so. It’s, I mean, I’ve always [pause] I’ve always thought I had a good war. I had a pretty clean war. It’s only when I think of the last op that I get a bit maudlin. It, I was lucky. But I met some decent people. I, we go, we are very fortunate we’ve, we’ve got in with a group, “D-Day Revisited,” and we go to France every June. And we go to Arnhem because I make a point in September of going to Arnhem and going and seeing the lads. I take a wreath to the skipper and he’s still the skipper seventy odd years later. But we go to, go to a little village in France, Arromanches and we were there this year and Pete turns around to me and said, ‘Bert, two blokes here want to shake hands with you.’ I thought right. Turned around and there’s a group captain and an air vice marshall. And I turned around to him, I said, I pointed to groupie, I said, ‘That’s God.’ I said, ‘And that one I don’t know.’ But I mean they’re nice chaps. They’re, they talk to me as if we’re equals and all the rest. You wouldn’t dream of it happening [laughs] I mean, I don’t, I don’t think I spoke to our group captain, and I couldn’t tell you his name, in all the time I was on the squadron.
MH: Different times.
BT: But we meet these chaps and they seem to be interested.
MH: I don’t think they seem to be, I think they are Bert. I think they are being polite.
BT: Did you say you wanted a photograph?
MH: Right. Right. So, I think I’ve asked all the questions. Thank you for giving your time. I know there’s some difficult things we’ve talked about but as you say, you know —
BT: I’m sorry if it’s been boring.
MH: Quite the opposite. It’s been fascinating. Its been absolutely fascinating. It’s been a privilege to sit and listen to you.
BT: It’s —
MH: And I think the important thing is in the future people will be able to listen to your words.
BT: Oh.
MH: And the things that you did, and I think we have to remember you were a twenty something young man, weren’t you?
BT: Well, this is it. We were. We were kids. We were, we were enjoying ourselves. We, it was a big adventure.
MH: Yeah. When you get older you start to look back and think well as you get older and experience affects you do different things.
BT: Oh, that’s a different matter, isn’t it?
MH: Yeah. It is. Right. I’m going to turn the tape recorder off. We’ve been going for oh an hour and twenty six minutes so its twenty five past, twenty six minutes past two.
BT: Oh, are you alright, Peter?
PB: I’m alright. Yeah.
MH: Peter has been very well behaved. I’m very grateful, Peter for your time as well.
PB: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bert Turner
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Martyn Horndern
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATurnerHA180829, PTurnerHA1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Bert Turner was a member of the Air Training Corps before the war. He volunteered for the Air Force and was called up 2 August 1942. After training he became a flight engineer with 196 Squadron. He flew some bombing and mine laying operations before the squadron was transferred to Transport Command. He remembers dropping supplies to the Special Operations Executive and paratroopers on D-Day. His Stirling was hit by anti-aircraft fire on a supply drop over France but they managed to return to England. He was later shot down by Fw 190s over Holland. His rear gunner was killed he describes how they were attacked while on their parachutes. He was wounded in the ankle by shrapnel. He evaded and met up with Allied troops. After returning to operations after a lengthy convalescence, he was shot down a second time by a Me 262 over Germany. He discusses the role of the flight engineer on Stirlings. When Bert returned to London he decided he was so close he would go and visit his father not knowing that he had received the telegram saying he was missing presumed killed. When he saw his son he thought he was a ghost and passed out.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Dorset
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
Netherlands--Arnhem
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:23:36 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
1657 HCU
196 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
Caterpillar Club
crewing up
evading
flight engineer
Fw 190
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Me 262
medical officer
military ethos
military service conditions
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
perception of bombing war
RAF Keevil
RAF St Athan
RAF Stradishall
RAF Tarrant Rushton
RAF Tuddenham
shot down
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training