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Title
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Alexander, Pauline
Pauline Maie Alexander
P M Alexander
Pauline Maie Kipling
P M Kipling
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Pauline Alexander (b. 1923) who served as Women’s Auxiliary Air Force member. This collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-24
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Alexander, PM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: My name is Judy Hodson and I am interviewing Pauline Alexander for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Pauline’s home and it is the 24th of May 2019. Thank you, Pauline for agreeing to talk to me today. Pauline, can you tell me your date of birth and where you were born?
PA: 9.12.23. I was born in Kensington, christened in St Pancras. And I only lived there for a few months before we moved to Leaden Roding in Essex, a little village owing to mum’s health. We lived there for five years and then moved to Chelmsford.
JH: And how many family were with you at that time? What —
PA: Well, all my brothers. I was the youngest of all of them. And we moved to Chelmsford, and my brother Bernard worked at, after we left, after he left school he worked at Marconi’s at Baddow. My brother Guy was a printer. My brother Bob joined the Air Force as a boy entrant armourer, and my brother Peter went in to the, my dad’s business.
JH: Which was, what was that?
PA: Surgical instrument making and repairing. That was in London so he travelled up to town every day. They travelled up to town every day. But as far as childhood was concerned we had a wonderful childhood. We all got on very well together.
JH: Did they spoil you being the baby?
PA: I was always told I was spoiled. And even when I said I wanted to join the WAAF, my dad didn’t want me to go, but mum said, but my mum said, ‘It will do her the world of good. She’s getting too spoiled.’
JH: And where did you go to school then? I know you had moves.
PA: I went to Kings. I went to the village school in Leaden Roding for a few months when I was four, but from there we went to Kings Road School in Chelmsford which was a very good school.
JH: And all the family —
PA: I wasn’t, I wasn’t too keen on schooling I must admit. But —
JH: You did it [laughs]
PA: I did it [laughs] along with everybody else. My brothers were the brainy ones.
JH: Were they?
PA: Bernard was at Baddow Research which was, they were known as the boffins but as it said in the book he, he volunteered in, for the Air Force on a five year stint which was —
JH: What year was that?
PA: 1938, when, when the scare was. And that’s when Peter volunteered for the, and Guy both volunteered for the Territorials. Peter had to get permission to volunteer because he wasn’t quite old enough to go then. And of course, when war was declared they naturally had to go. I mean, Bernard was in a Reserved Occupation. Baddow Research.
JH: Yeah.
PA: But these things happen.
JH: Did you actually go to work from school? Or —
PA: I didn’t.
JH: No.
PA: I stayed at home, and I used to do the shopping and everything, but then for the 1938 Essex Show I helped in the office there just sending out all the tickets for, you know the applications for to show. And then when that finished Miss Cotting, an accountant who lived opposite us in Chelmsford at the time, she offered me a job there. So it was from there that I went into the WAAF when it, it was either joining the Forces or going in the factory and I thought —
JH: So that was what attracted you to, to going into the WAAF.
PA: Yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah. And what age were you?
PA: Well, I was seventeen and a half when I volunteered. Eighteen when I, near enough when I went. Yes.
JH: And where was that based at?
PA: When I first went I had to report to Romford recruitment there and then we were sent to Gloucester to get kitted out and everything. From there we went to Morecambe for a month’s training on the front, and we, we always assembled in what used to be Woolworths there then. Woolworths had moved out from their building and it was taken over by the RAF recruitment, and we did all our square bashing and everything there for a month. And then I was posted to Waddington.
JH: What year would that be then by the time you —
PA: 1942, and I was in flying, flying control for a short while but that was very harrowing booking the aircraft in and out. And I worked with two civilian people doing that. They’d obviously been there since before the war and they were retained. And then I, from there I went to the WAAF admin office in the WAAF headquarters, where I was billeted anyway and I had an accident with my leg. The MPs came one night to say that there was a light showing from one of the bedrooms and went, we went outside to see which room it was and he’d parked his bicycle in front of the thing and I caught my leg on the, his hubcap on his bike and I was in sick bay for a month. I had a haematoma. There’s the scar there and another one down there.
JH: Gosh.
PA: And that wasn’t operated on for a week so I had a black leg. That was —
JH: Serious, wasn’t it?
PA: It was, and we had an awful job with it because the MO came to see me after a week and he said, ‘Have you eaten? Had your tea?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘I’ll be back in an hour and —’ he said, ‘I’ll operate.’ And we used to have to press like that, and we had the kidney bowl and they used to, oh blood it was all congealed.
JH: Gosh.
PA: And I came out of sick bay and I was on a month’s sick leave for that.
JH: Where did you, where did you go? Did you go home?
PA: Went home. Yes. But I had to report to the Chelmsford and Essex Hospital every few days for dressings and that. And then when I went back to camp I was moved to Skellingthorpe. And —
JH: What duties? What duties did you have?
PA: I was only clerical duties. But there the office I worked in was doing the Committee of Adjustments for the aircrews that were lost, and that was a bit of an eye opener, and that ended up in a court martial for one of the [pause] they were, they were, didn’t send all the personal possessions back that should have gone. And that ended up in a court martial there for one of them but he wasn’t the real culprit. As usual one takes the can for somebody a bit [pause] And that, that combination I had a terrible argument with one of them because they were talking about it one day, you know. They used to hive off the stuff, and I would say something about you know the parents and that. They said, ‘What are you worried about?’ And I said, ‘Well, I happen to have lost a brother. Aircrew.’ I said, ‘And I know the rubbish my mother was sent.’
JH: Right. Which brother was that?
PA: That was from my brother, Bernard.
JH: Bernard.
PA: He’d only just had his twenty first birthday. Birthday. And I mean naturally you had some very nice presents but, ‘Oh, he must have taken them on ops with him.’ So, you know.
JH: You had experience then really.
PA: Yes, and but you live and learn these things. It was all part of parcel of Service life.
JH: Did you have a lot of friends, you know amongst your colleagues, actual close friends or —
PA: I’ve never made real close friends. We were a close knit family, and I suppose I played, I played cricket, football and everything, always with the boys. I was with the boys. They always took care of me so, and I remember one night I had been to night school for shorthand typing and I was on my way home. It was around about 8 o’clock and I was walking along Duke Street, and my brother and his friends were coming the other way. He said, ‘What are you doing out this time of night?’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve just been —’ He said, ‘Home,’ he said, ‘And I shall ask mum what time you got home.’ [laughs]
JH: Very protective.
PA: They were. Very protective. I couldn’t have wished for better brothers.
JH: And what was it like —
PA: And I’ve never, I still remember them as they were.
JH: And when you had your leave at Chelmsford or your sick leave and that. What was it like living there at that time because that was wartime wasn’t it?
PA: Quite harrowing.
JH: Yeah.
PA: With all the bombing. Not necessarily Chelmsford but all around Chelmsford.
JH: Did you have any near misses near you or —
PA: Oh yes. We had the landmines at the bottom of the Avenues which I suppose about, well less than a mile away from, much less and they were aiming for Hoffmann’s really which was ball bearing factory. And the ceilings came down. Windows out. Fortunately, we had a very sturdy table. A big table and we used to sit under the table. But after that my dad got an Anderson, a shelter. Indoor shelter so mum could go in the shelter after that.
JH: So you felt safer.
PA: Yes. Yes.
JH: Yeah, for everyone.
PA: Well, the trouble was you see dad worked up in London. When he was in London he worried about mum at home. When he was at home he worried about the business in London.
JH: Did the business survive through the war in the end?
PA: Well, whilst my dad was alive, yes.
JH: Yes.
PA: But when he died the business went you see. It was a good, the good will of the business that was more or less, so we lost not only the business but all my brothers as well, my brothers and my dad as well. And that was before National Insurance and everything. So dad hadn’t made a will. Mum wasn’t allowed to touch anything from the business for six months. And then after that she had, she paid in to National Insurance for fourteen years so that she could get a pension when, she lived on her capital for fourteen years. So —
JH: What year did your dad die?
PA: ’43. So we, the family didn’t have a very [pause] my mum and dad didn’t have a very [pause] until war it was heavenly, but [pause] but as my mother said, she was very sardonic, ‘Oh well,’ she says, ‘At least I’ve got all my money back.’ So —
JH: She had to go on didn’t she so —
PA: Yeah. And somebody said to her one day about after the two boys had been killed, you know, ‘Aren’t you bitter about it?’ And she said, ‘What’s the point?’ She said, ‘They were doing exactly the same. Bombing.’ And she said, ‘They were somebody’s son as well.’ You don’t necessarily do it because you want to. It was them or us. [pause] But getting back to Skellingthorpe and Waddington I enjoyed my, if you can call it that [pause] I never went to any of the sergeant’s mess dances or anything. I never, I didn’t drink for a start so, and as I say with the boys, aircrew I didn’t want to get involved. So I never went to any of the sergeant’s mess dances or anything like that so, but we had some very nice music evenings, and our own entertainment, and we did our job what we had to do. That was it.
JH: And how long did you serve?
PA: From ’42 to ’46. I was demobbed in ’46. When I went to Stradishall on a compassionate posting after my brother Peter had been killed I was home for a month then. Yeah. I suppose you could call it stress but in those days they called it a breakdown if you like. And then I had the compassionate posting to Stradishall but to be nearer home but it took me as long as to get from Stradishall to Chelmsford as it did from Lincoln to Chelmsford, because it was from Haverhill to — [pause] Oh, I can’t think of the name now, the other side of Kelvedon. In between Kelvedon and Colchester. It was a little single line so we shuffled backwards and forwards but the most harrowing thing there was there were only two coaches on the trains, and one coach went to Bury St Edmunds, branched off to Bury St Edmunds and the other one went to Haverhill. I got on the wrong coach one night and I ended up in Clare in Suffolk and I had to walk from Clare to Haverhill and from Haverhill to Stradishall and I never passed a soul. Pitch black.
JH: It must have been very scary.
PA: I’d never been so relieved to get back to camp as I was that night.
JH: How many miles do you think it was?
PA: Altogether about ten miles.
JH: That’s a lot on your own, isn’t it?
PA: Yes. Yes. But another thing I can say, the whole time I was in the Forces at aerodromes we never had an air raid. I don’t remember an air raid. Waddington had been bombed before I’d gone there. But I mean there were a lot of scares from aircraft not taking off, you know. The take off was aborted, and they were, the bomb load was, all that sort of thing.
JH: Did you ever feel that you were in real danger?
PA: We didn’t think about it. We just, alright it just took it as well, life.
JH: Gosh.
PA: I can’t say I enjoyed it, my Service life as such. It was an experience which I think Service life does a lot of people a lot of good. They see life from a different angle even though it was wartime.
JH: Were you influenced by your brothers having gone before you?
PA: Yes, definitely.
JH: So, how many brothers did you lose altogether?
PA: Three.
JH: And their names were?
PA: Bernard, Guy and Peter.
JH: You had one brother survived the war.
PA: One brother survived. Yes. And he was the regular, and an armament officer. And there’s a picture of him somewhere sitting on a bomb along with all his mates, all smoking.
JH: And his name was —?
PA: That was Robert.
JH: Robert. So what did you do after you’d got demobbed? What happened to you?
PA: I went to work at Marconi’s. Which was a very reputable firm.
JH: Yes.
PA: And then I met my husband. Well, I knew my husband at school but never any contact in those days. I met him at a RAFA dance. And we met in the March, we were engaged in the May and married in the September.
JH: What year was that then?
PA: ’47.
JH: And what did he do? What was his job?
PA: Well, he was a regular.
JH: Of course, yeah.
PA: He was a wireless mechanic, and do all that sort of thing and when he came out of the Air Force he worked at Marconi’s, and then I was expecting Peter and I left and he joined near enough. And —
JH: So how many children did you have?
PA: Peter and Maureen.
JH: Peter and Maureen.
[pause]
PA: She, by the way isn’t my cat.
JH: Oh, right [laughs] No?
PA: She’s Angela’s cat. Not mine [laughs]
[recording paused]
PA: That was Kate Kipling and she was, worked in munitions at Perivale in the First World War. And the inspectors came around one day and tapped one of the bombs they were, and it exploded and she was seriously wounded. She had scars all down, shrapnel scars all down her back and down her arms, in her head. And when she had no end of operations for the removal of shrapnel, and when she started to go deaf she went for a hearing test and he said, ‘We’re getting an awful lot of interference. A lot of rattling going on.’ And mum said, ‘Yeah. Well, that would be shrapnel, still in her —’
JH: And what age was that? How old would she have been then do you think?
PA: Well, between her forties and fifties. Well, thirties and fifties. Yeah.
JH: So did she work after the war then?
PA: No.
JH: No.
PA: No. She married my dad and had five children.
JH: Course.
PA: All under the age of six.
JH: But by the end of the war there was yourself, one brother and your mum left.
PA: Yes. Yeah. Start the war with seven and end up with three.
JH: Was your mum bitter about the war then with —
PA: Over some things. She was bitter when the Memorial Window was inaugurated at the church in [Broomfield], which is that little church up there where my brother Peter is buried. She went to the inauguration and she was shown her seat at the back. All the dignatories at the front of course, and she wasn’t even acknowledged and she was bitter about that which is quite understandable.
JH: Yes.
PA: But then that’s the way things worked. The mayor and everybody else was more important.
JH: She was obviously very proud of her sons wasn’t she, you know.
PA: Very proud. She was a very proud person and my brother Guy was married for a few months before he was killed and his wife remarried, but she always said and her cousin also always said, ‘Your mother was a lady.’ She was very, she was very upright. Very, what my mother said was law as far as we were all concerned. She could do, you know her word was [pause] when during the war, she worked, she was a member of the Red Cross and also she used to work for charities. Different, you know whist drives and all that sort of thing. She was a member of the Women’s Institute and, as well and my dad was an air raid warden when he was at home. And there again, think what people may my dad, he had a coronary thrombosis. He played golf in the afternoon with his doctor and he was taken ill during the evening and Doctor Henry came and he gave him some tablets, a tablet and he said to mum, ‘He should make it through ‘til the morning.’ But he didn’t. He died during the night and because there was an air raid, an air raid on my mum she washed him down, and then went downstairs and knitted furiously until it was light, and the air raid was over and she went over to the warden’s post and told them what had happened. That was my mother.
JH: Very strong.
PA: Very strong.
JH: And how old was she when she died then?
PA: When she died, a hundred and five.
JH: Did she marry again?
PA: No. No. My father thought the world of her, and so did we all as children. And when we lived in Primrose Hill we lived next door to a Mr and Mrs Young, and Mrs Young said when she heard that five children were moving in next door she said she had reservations. But when we moved out she said she could never have wished for better neighbours. I used to go shopping for her on a Saturday morning. Only across the road to the little shop opposite that, there used to be little shops in people’s front rooms in those days and I, I used to get her a few bits of shopping for sixpence.
JH: It’s amazing what you could get for sixpence in those days.
PA: Exactly. That was a lot of money. My mum, she always boasted with her first wage packet when she started work, she went to Goodwood Races with her sister Nell and she said, ‘We won sixpence.’ In those days. That was before the First World War. They won sixpence.
JH: A lot of money.
PA: A lot of money. Yes. Because they lived at, she was born in Midhurst in Sussex and of course that’s not too far from Goodwood Racecourse [pause] Yes. We had a wonderful childhood until the war.
JH: And what did you do, you know after the war and your family life with your children growing up?
PA: Well, Peter and Maureen always say they had a wonderful, the freedom they had, like we did. We used to have a bottle of drink and some sandwiches and just disappear for the day down the park or —
JH: Was that Chelmsford area at that time?
PA: That was at Chelmsford. Yes. They were born in Chelmsford. Maureen never, didn’t leave Chelmsford until she met her first husband and she moved to Milton Keynes, and she’s still in Milton Keynes. Different houses but [laughs] different husband.
JH: Did you have any hobbies through you know your married life that you both enjoyed? Did you?
PA: Not really. Hubby, he was a Mason eventually for quite a number of years. And we had a big garden like this, and —
JH: You enjoyed your garden.
PA: We enjoyed the garden. Yes. We enjoyed going out on our bikes and stopping for a drink, and Peter used to be on the little saddle on the front of, on the —
JH: On the front of the bike.
PA: On the bar.
JH: Yeah.
PA: At the front of the bike. And Maureen used to be on a little carrier on the back of my bike until we could afford a car. And if we couldn’t afford anything in those days we didn’t have it. Not like today.
JH: What was your first car? Do you remember now?
PA: An old Morris. Yeah. But my, my mum and dad had a car anyway. That was a Rover. And my brother Guy, oh Bernard had it. We took, drove the car up to Dishforth to my brother Bernard’s unit. He had the car up there during the war because we couldn’t get the petrol for it anyway [beeping noise] Excuse me, that’s my hearing aid squeaking. And then when he went missing one of the aircrew from, lived at Ingatestone which wasn’t very far from, about five miles from Chelmsford. He brought the car back for us. And then when Guy was stationed at Waterbeach in Cambridgeshire he had the car there. And when I was at Wadding ton he came up to visit me.
JH: Did you drive at all?
PA: No.
JH: No. Never?
PA: No.
JH: No.
PA: No. I mean all my brothers drove. I would have learned to drive but, and after we bought a car for how we drove a car he said about driving. He said, ‘What’s the point?’ He said, ‘I can drive you wherever you want.’ And then Maureen and Peter both learned to drive. No need. So I never learned. Angie, my daughter in law doesn’t drive. She lived in London. Not far from West Ham football. Well, opposite West Ham Football Stadium, and they never had a car. Peter did persuade her to start learning to drive when he worked away for just over a week. She was having two or three hour lessons at a time. You know, one of those quick things. But as soon as he went home she gave it up. She didn’t like driving.
JH: So have you all been —
PA: She’s terrified of the motorways.
JH: Oh, right. So —
PA: So she would never have driven on motorways anyhow.
JH: So has the family been football supporters over the years?
PA: Oh, West Ham. And next door but one neighbour —
JH: Yeah.
PA: In Chelmsford to hubby and I, their uncle he came from London and he was a West Ham supporter and he took Peter when he was ten up to watch West Ham and we’ve been West Ham supporters ever since. Hence even Ross, West Ham mug even now. But the irony of it all was that my husband’s cousin, his daughter married Geoff Hurst. My husband went to their wedding naturally, so, and of course he was West Ham.
JH: Big, big football connection going through the family.
PA: There is. My brother in law, John he played for Chelmsford City for fifteen years. They were a great footballing family as well. Played football. And as I say with four brothers I was brought up with football, cricket. Guy was more in to tennis with Peggy his wife. They played a lot of tennis but, but you know it was all very sporty.
[recording paused]
JH: Ok. So, we were just going to talk about when you actually started work again.
PA: Yes.
JH: After you had your children.
PA: I joined Marconi’s again for the second time, and I worked in the registry there, and I became deputy boss and we, we used to deal with every, all aspects of the division. We vetted all the post that came in for orders and enquiries and everything, and I used to, payday all the payslips for the division came up to the registry, and I used to sort them all out into rooms and we delivered all the pay slips to everybody. They were pleased to see us that day [laughs] And also all the requirements, letter-heading and all the, for the typists for —
JH: The stationery was it, the stationery cupboard.
PA: The stationery.
JH: Yeah.
PA: Used to order the stationery for the whole division. Get all the personal cards printed for all the sales and engineers on their trips abroad and everything. So it was a wide scope of things, and when I, when I retired apparently my card went around all. I got over a hundred pound when I retired, which I thought was very, very generous of everybody.
JH: Very well thought of.
PA: I did my best. I was very trying at times. I still am, and always will be I expect. But that’s all part and parcel of life. My son, and son in law whenever I was, ‘Are you behaving yourself?’ [laughs] Yeah.
JH: Well, that’s lovely.
PA: Well, when you’ve lived on your own for so many years you are very independent. You have your own ways and means of doing things. It may not be the best way but it’s what you’re used to.
JH: Yeah, ok. Right. Well, I can only really say thank you Pauline for allowing me to record this interview today.
PA: Well, thank you for coming.
JH: It’s a pleasure.
PA: I certainly didn’t expect it.
JH: Well, it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you.
PA: Thank you, dear.
[recording paused]
JH: We’re just having further anecdotes from Pauline regarding an episode when she was serving as a WAAF.
PA: Ok. I remember when I was at Waddington and in flying control. One day one of the officers decided to go for a little flip in his Oxford aircraft and he was, he was on the runway waiting to take off and a Lancaster revved up and he completely somersaulted, much to the amusement of everyone in flying control. No harm done. He saw the funny side of it as well.
JH: That’s very good. And you were also saying about your husband. When he was serving he, he actually went in to, up to Scotland didn’t he at some point?
PA: My husband. Yes. He was up at Leuchars but he was with air sea rescue at Lowestoft during, Felixstowe rather during part of his service and that was very harrowing. Going out and rescuing the aircrews that had ditched in the sea.
JH: A lot of losses I presume.
PA: A lot of losses, yes. And he did say they picked up one survivor once and they just had to drop him straight back in the thing. He was cut in half. Terrible injuries some of them. My brother Guy he, all his crew came to his wedding and so of course we knew them quite well. But when Guy came home on, Guy came home on leave once, and when he went back he wrote a letter to his cousin and he said, ‘I’ve been lucky so far.’ And the next night he, he went on ops with another crew and that’s when he didn’t come back. But that’s the way. They, his crew they, they were lovely load of, but within next to no time they’d all gone except one because they all had to split up you see when Guy, Guy’s pilot as well he’d gone as a second pilot with another crew, and he didn’t come back, but he did escape. He wasn’t captured and he did get back to this country but he was a Canadian and they sent him back to Canada.
JH: And what were they flying?
PA: Stirlings. And George, one of Guys original crew, he finished his tour of ops and he went as a trainer and collided in mid-air and was killed. I went to his funeral.
JH: A very sad time.
PA: You know it’s [pause] and they talk about mental sickness these days. They don’t know the meaning of it. Of stress and strain. But then again of course it’s encouraged these days.
JH: Did it affect your husband do you think over the years. Do you think from his experiences —
PA: I don’t think so. He didn’t enjoy India. He was out in India for a while. He didn’t like India and India didn’t like him. He came back with ulcers. But Bob went to Africa. I could have gone to Egypt, but I can’t stand the heat so it wouldn’t have done me any good. I mean you had to volunteer to go, and my mother said, ‘Why ever didn’t you go?’ She said, ‘It would have been a wonderful experience.’ I said, ‘Yes. I know.’ Knowing me I can’t, I just couldn’t have. Guy went to Canada to train and he loved it over there and he said although it’s bitterly cold it’s a different, it’s a dry cold. Not the damp cold over here and he, if he’d have survive he’d have loved to have gone back. But at Stradishall I worked with a Canadian corporal, a girl, a female corporal from, as I say she was Canadian. She got frostbite over here. Damp cold. Completely different to Canada. Yeah. Amazing isn’t it?
[pause]
PA: There were some very happy times, there were some very sad times when I was at Waddington and Skellingthorpe in the Wing Commander Nettleton era, and the Dambusters. All that sort of thing. They were at Scampton, and from Waddington you could see the aircraft all taking off from Scampton as well. It was a wonderful sight, but —
JH: Consequences.
PA: Yes, exactly. I know I was out, my brother Bernard was home on leave once and we were going out to visit, see some friends of mine. This was before I joined up of course. The air raid warning went. You could hear the guns going and the bombs dropping and he said, ‘Hadn’t we better go home?’ I said, ‘Good heavens, no.’ I said, ‘That’s at Romford.’ And, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘And to think I do that.’ He was an observer as they were called in those days and then they became navigators you see. Bernard was an observer, his twin brother was a navigator, but the same thing.
JH: They were very brave, weren’t they?
PA: Hmmn?
JH: They were very brave and strong to keep going back.
PA: Well, to think they did that night after night. How harrowing that must have been. And what would those youngsters of today make of it? But then it’s been encouraged. You mustn’t smack them, they’re not, I know my two have had a few hidings. I’ve had a few hidings and I deserved it and so did they. Maureen when she came out at, she was still at school when I first started work, and when we got home one night she’d put the potatoes on, on full gas and she’d gone swimming. Yes, she didn’t do that again.
JH: Wow.
PA: But that’s what we did.
[pause]
PA: It was nothing for her to have a meal. She was only thirteen but it was nothing for her to have a meal ready for her dad and I when we got home from work.
JH: That’s brilliant.
PA: Oh yes. My dad was useless at sort of odd jobs. Mum did the decorating and that sort of thing and gardening. Mum did the gardening. It hurt my dad’s back, but a round of golf did it the world of good. Mum always had help though. She always had somebody come in a couple of times a week to do the heavy work as it was called, and the sheets and all the boy’s shirts and everything went to the laundry, she didn’t have to do any of that.
JH: Well, that’s you know, that’s very very interesting to hear all these experiences and how life was then and —
PA: Yeah.
JH: It’s, yeah no thank you very much for sharing with us. So it’s —
PA: Well, thank you for coming.
JH: Yeah.
PA: Well, I had such a wonderful reception when I went to Bomber Command. I just couldn’t believe it.
JH: That’s lovely.
PA: Right from the moment, I just happened to have my Veterans badge on my jacket and they said, ‘Oh, you’re a veteran.’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Oh, we’ll have to reimburse you then.’ Well, of course Maureen had paid anyway. But every, they couldn’t have looked after me any better, and you know the walk up to the plinth, don’t you?
JH: Yes.
PA: It started to rain. I was in my in a, pardon me, in a wheelchair but they came running up in the rain with a plastic cape for me to put on and another plastic cover over my legs.
JH: Good.
PA: And also they said, ‘Oh, about the canteen. ‘You have whatever you like. It’s free.’ And then the lady, she said, ‘Oh, can I have a, can I take a photo of you?’ And she took a photograph of Maureen and I in the foyer just before we left.
PA: That’s lovely.
JH: As far as I was concerned preferential treatment I’d had.
PA: I’m glad you had a good experience.
JH: It was a fantastic experience. It was the last thing I expected.
PA: Good. Well, thank you again very much for your time today.
JH: My pleasure.
PA: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Pauline Alexander
Creator
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Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAlexanderPM190524, PAlexanderPM1901
Format
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01:09:41 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
During the war, Pauline's siblings Bernard, Guy, Robert and Peter served in the air force and army, her mother volunteered for the Red Cross, and her father volunteered as an air raid warden. Inspired by her brothers, Alexander joined Women’s Auxiliary Air Force in 1942 and completed clerical duties at RAF Waddington, RAF Skellingthorpe, and RAF Stradishall, before being demobilised in 1946. Although she did not necessarily enjoy her service, she notes that it was a life-shaping experience. Alexander also recounts the harrowing wartime experiences of her family members, including the deaths of her father and three brothers, and how her mother coped with their losses. Finally, she recalls her postwar life including working for the Marconi Company, meeting her husband, and raising their two children.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Essex
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
Language
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eng
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Air Raid Precautions
civil defence
coping mechanism
ground personnel
home front
military discipline
military ethos
military living conditions
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Stradishall
RAF Waddington
Red Cross
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1181/11752/PWagnerHW1701.2.jpg
6a7763552d25d2c08c9178b97a3f8dee
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1181/11752/AWagnerH160504.1.mp3
d0604bd27c672862fb31f835ffeebaa3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wagner, Henry Wolfe
H W Wagner
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. Two oral history interviews with Sergeant Henry Wolfe Wagner (1923 - 2020, 1604744 Royal Air Force), his memoirs, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 51 Squadron from RAF Snaith and became a prisoner of war. He was demobbed in 1946 and returned to education where he remained until his retirement.
The collection was catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wagner, HW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: This is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Henry Wagner today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mr Wagner’s home and it is the 4th of May 2016. Thank you Henry for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview are Steve Drawbridge and Tony Hiddle. Friends of Henry. Ok. So, if you’d like to tell us a little bit about yourself. When and where you were born and your early years.
HW: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I was born in 1923 in Ireland but, and for a long time retained Irish citizenship because my mother and father were both Irish. But we came over to England when I was three years old. What the reason for coming over here was I don’t know. My father, my father was a clerk in the Holy Orders. He took a Theology degree at Dublin University. And my mother came from a well-established old Irish family. In fact, she played, played country golf when she was in Ireland. And I and my brothers took up golf, in our, when we were about ten years old. And it’s always been one of my great interests in life. We came over to England and settled down near a little village near Reading where my father set up a dentistry practice and he was always interested in shooting. In game shooting. And he used to gather friends round and with their twelve bores and they would do clay pigeon shooting. And that was one of his great interests. So, he was a dentist and, and a fairly well known game shot because he used to write articles for a magazine at the time called, “The Shooting Times” and “British Sportsman.” Anyway, he deserted the family and again I don’t know the reasons behind it all. I was too small to have any interest in that sort of thing. And left my mother with four boys to look after and no real, not much source of income. My father stumped up a bit from time to time but then packed it in and he had to be chased to carry on. How she did it I don’t know. One mother looking after four boys and a house. Doing all the housework as well. I’ve got to take my hat off to people like that. And we moved to Henley after a time, where they have the regatta and the going wasn’t all that easy financially then. We lived in a council house in not a very salubrious sort of a neighbourhood. But my next brother, there were three brother you see. I was the second one. The third one down, Richard was only a year younger and he and I used to play golf together. In fact, he became quite a good golfer. Handicap down to six eventually and my handicap never came down to lower than twelve. But we played, well certainly twice a week. I went to, was successful in passing the examination to go to Henley Grammar School which was a long established Grammar School. A great tradition behind it. And about a third of children could get Grammar School education. The rest stayed at the, what were called Secondary Modern schools in those days. But at Henley Grammar School I found my main interests were in languages, geography, mathematics. Though I was never any good or much good at. But more about that later. I took school certificate there. Played rugby there. They didn’t play association football it was, Grammar Schools always played rugby and I became a captain of one of the houses. The school was divided into three sections. Three houses which used to compete with each other on the sports fields. And I was captain of Periam House. He rugby team on the rugby fields. We used to play other Grammar Schools around about. So that became my other favourite sport. So we had golf, rugby. By the time I left school — I took the school certificate and then stayed on for the higher school certificate or A level I believe it’s called now and was accepted to go to Reading University. And I would have gone there when I’d be, let’s see, fifteen years, when I was sixteen or seventeen years old. By the time, by the time I went to University the war had already started and it wasn’t going very well. We weren’t prepared for war where the Germans had been preparing for war for years and years. So things were, things were hard. Rationing was hard. Food was scarce. You got — bread was rationed. Jam was rationed. Cooking fats. Butter. Well pretty well everything in fact. Tinned food. Sardines. Pilchards and that sort of thing. They were all in short supply and we used to, in fact our four boys rather we all had our own one jam pot. One pound jam pot a month. And we sort of used to look at this at tea time. Look at the other, the other lad, the other chap’s pots of jam to see how they were getting on with theirs. It was very, things were very, in short supply. There was, soap was rationed. Sweets were rationed. You had to buy sweets which would, you were sure would last for a long time in your mouth. You ate them slowly. You didn’t have chocolate which would be gone in no time. You had the toffees and that sort of thing that would last. So, Reading University now. We were, lived seven miles from Reading University and I didn’t live at the University. I lived at home but we used to go in to Reading every day. I used to go into Reading every day by bicycle. I had to bike into Reading and at the end of the day bike home again. So that was, that was fourteen miles of exercise every day anyway. Sometimes I’d go in on Saturdays because I, for some reason I didn’t play rugby at University. What took my fancy, because this always happened at Henley Grammar School as well, cross-country running was another favourite other sport, other activity at Henley Grammar School. I joined the cross-country club at Reading University and we used to hold triangular matches against other Universities such as Bristol or Southampton or wherever and I mean you didn’t get, you didn’t get, anybody could take part in it. You didn’t get selected. There was, a cross-country team doesn’t have sort of four or six or eight members or whatever there might be. Anybody who’s interested can have a go and of course the better ones were always encouraged. Well, everybody’s encouraged for that matter. So it was mostly cross-country running at University. And also the, so they had the war having started I went to the University in, let’s see 1940. You could, men at the University could either, could join the Cadet Force. They only had an Army Cadet Force. So we, it’s alright, I don’t want to go into the army but every, all the others seemed to be joining the army cadets. I suppose I’d better do the same. No interest in it whatever but after a time, after about a year, the University opened, started Air Training Corps. A Cadet Force. University Air Squadron. That’s what I was trying to think of. And where you could train, anybody from the Army Cadet Force could transfer to the University Air Squadron and so I welcomed that change there. We, it was run as, the squadron commander was appointed. He was the one of the University staff in fact. Professor Miller who was head of geography and also he was Dean of the Faculty of Science. He hadn’t got any Air Force training you understand but he was the, he was in charge. To bring real Air Force personnel into it the Air Force supplied us with a Flight Lieutenant Jordan who was a fighter pilot. Had been a fighter pilot. His flight, he’d been in, his aircraft had caught fire and he was shot down. The aircraft caught fire and he was badly burned about the face. But he was, you looked up to him as one who had been there. He’d been there before you. And also a Sergeant Linton who was an ex-air gunner who’d been shot down in the, in North Africa and he had walked back through the desert back to our own lines. And he was, so he was put in charge of weapons training and that sort of thing in the University Air Squadron. And there were lectures on meteorology which, which Squadron Leader Miller was well trained to do of course being a geographer. And outside lecturers used to come along to talk about Air Force law and organisation and all that sort of the thing and we used to go flying at weekends. Flight Lieutenant Jordan could take us over to Woodley Aerodrome which was about three or four miles away where Miles aircraft were built and he used to take us for a, well we looked on them as joy rides. They were classified as air experiences. So, all in all it was good. The time came for, when I was of an age to be called up and which was at the end of two years at University and I went up to London and, for an interview board and, ‘Why do you want to go into aircrew?’ and so on. I had always been interested in flying. When my brother and I were about ten, what would we be? Ten. Eleven. Twelve. That sort of age. We used to have those, buy those model gliders that you shoot. You had like, they were on a catapult and we used to go to a field near our house. We used to do a lot of kite flying and that sort of thing and always had an interest in flying. Yes. And the, the Air Force accepted me for aircrew training. And as a pilot. I was accepted for pilot training. The system was that some lads being interviewed just chose, well I’d like to be a navigator, or I’d like to be bomb aimer or I’d like to be a gunner or whatever but most put down pilot first of all. And those that failed could either choose one of the other categories. So, it was called the PNB scheme. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. And, and those three trades you were trained abroad in those because you needed flying experience. The gunners, air gunners they’d be mostly recruited from, from the ground staff at the various airfields and squadrons and they could be trained there and then because they, it didn’t take an awful lot of training to be a gunner. You had to know how to operate the equipment and services and cure stoppages and how to aim off or deflection shots according to the speed of the other aircraft and so on. They didn’t need very extensive training. They could, that could be carried out by their own squadrons. So, alright. Well, I’m in the PNB scheme then. I’ve been accepted to train abroad as a pilot. But before, before all that I was you got so those who were going to be who were selected to be trained as pilots were sent to different aerodromes around the country where, where flying clubs had been before the war mostly. There were some aircraft manufacturers who had their own aerodromes of course to, you got to fly the stock off when it’s built after all. But the, these were called grading schools and you were, you were taken in charge by a, by a proper Air Force instructor. A very experienced Air Force instructor. And he would teach you the how to fly the, a Tiger Moth. There’s a picture of a Tiger Moth in there in fact and the two seater bi-plane. Not all that easy to fly really but the aim was, or the standard was that you had to have, you had to have gone solo by your ten hours instruction. If you hadn’t gone solo in less than ten hours then you were automatically rejected and put on to your next choice you see. So we used to fly when I was at Brough up near Hull on the, on the Humber Estuary and we used to take off, used to take off and fly over the circuit. Went along beside the Humber then up across the river. Along the south side and back north again across, across the River Humber and a circuit took about a quarter of an hour. So, well it was enjoyable. After, I went solo after a month or so after nine and three quarter hours so I was home and dry there. And I thought, right, that’s all set up now. I’m going to be a pilot. So back on leave after that. And the next call up was for a posting abroad to carry on the, carry on the pilot training. Some people went to Canada where they had the Empire Air Training Scheme. Some went to Rhodesia which is now Tanzania isn’t it? And some went to South Africa and the chap that went solo before me on this particular day he went, he happened, Ron Waters who was at the University Air Squadron with me he went to Canada and completed his training out there. I went to South Africa and did my training down there. So you never knew where you were going to get sent to. Hold on a minute.
[recording paused]
HW: So, after grading school I was posted. I went on leave and then was posted to Liverpool for embarkation for South Africa. We, nobody told us we were going to South Africa but we’d been provided with, with khaki shorts and a pith helmet. A sun helmet and khaki gear so we knew it was going to be somewhere hot. So we embarked on the steamship Strathmore. We set sail from Liverpool around the north of Ireland. We were crowded down below. The accommodation was, there was no room to move about down below. You had a table. Table. Tables for about a dozen people where the food was served up to and that’s where you were fed. You had to sling hammocks for sleeping purposes but they were uncomfortable and most people settled for sleeping just on the floor or on the tables. And we set sail around the north of, of Ireland and the sea was really rough. It was. The boat was swooping. Not just up and down but sideways as well. And most people could be seen hanging over, up on the deck, hanging over the rails and depositing the contents of what they’d had for their last meal. It was uncomfortable until you got your sea legs after a few days. And the weather turned warmer the further you went south. So we went out, out, far out into the Atlantic. We were, the Strathmore was a fast steamship. It wasn’t escorted at all by destroyers to keep away German U-Boats. It just relied on speed. And the first port of call was Freetown in Sierra Leone. As we, as we entered the harbour we heard, we observed destroyers depth charging not far off so the Germans were around about. After a couple of days there we went out into the Atlantic again. Down south, round the south of South Africa and in to the port of Durban. This was, for us this was a real holiday. We’d come away from hard up England and we were, the weather was lovely and warm. We had the access to as much as sweets, chocolates, that sort of thing, as we wanted. And my first purchase was a can of sweetened condensed milk which I consumed in no time flat. Also, being Durban there was, Durban I should say was a transit camp because from there everybody came into Durban but then they were allocated from there to different, different training airfields. So there wasn’t much. It was just, you were it was just a place where you waited for your next posting. We could go down to the down to, down to the sea at Durban and Durban beach. And it was good swimming down there. The Indian ocean. The water was warm. The weather was warm. There was, the food was good. So it was real relaxation until, well I stayed there about what about two or three weeks I should say and then a posting came through to a training aerodrome in the Orange Free State, called Kroonstad. Here the training I should say wasn’t carried out by, by RAF officers or staff. It was carried out by members of the South African Air Force. So, I had a Lieutenant Goddard as my, my tutor. Not one of the easiest of men to get on with but maybe, maybe trainee pilots do get on their instructor’s nerves sometimes. And they’re always quite outspoken. They never, they never console you. They never mince their words. If they mean one thing they say it unmistakably. And so, so after, it didn’t take long before Lieutenant Goddard and Mr [unclear] said, ‘This bloke’s alright for a solo. We can let him get on with it.’ From Kroonstad] we used to fly north for about seven or eight miles. Still in Tiger Moths. They still used Tiger Moths in South Africa. Fly north to an auxiliary airfield called Rietgat which was not much more than the highveld with a barbed wire fence around it and a hut where you could, you could shelter or food. Have your food and, or have a rest. So, after I’d done by the sense of a bit of solo in England and the solos that I went on at Rietgat and Kroonstad I’d done, I’d done ten hours solo on Tiger Moths and it was no, no great hassle at all. It was very enjoyable in fact. The, the Lieutenant Goddard got out one day, oh I should say Kroonstad was a very small area. You could get a Tiger Moth off alright provided, but it was, you had to make sure you only just cleared the fence one end and since the Tiger Moth had no brakes it just ran on and on and on and you would stop not far before you got to the fence the other end. Just enough space to rev the engine up and put full rudder on and turn around and taxi back to where the instructor was. Right. Back to Lieutenant Goddard. He got out, he said, ‘Bring it back down,’ he said, ‘Do your one solo. One solo circuit,’ he said, ‘Don’t hang about. Don’t mess about now,’ he said, ‘I want to get back to Kroonstad because I’ve got another student waiting for me.’ So he got, strapped up his control column so that it couldn’t move and I was, I was in total control. He got out. Oh he took his, no he took he took his control column out with him. You could just unscrew it and he took it out so it didn’t catch on anything, you see. So turned around. Taxied back to the take off point, opened up and off we go. Nice take off. Yes. Up, up, up and away. Around. Around. Around. Cross wind leg. Downwind leg. Cross wind leg. And turn in for the finals. And I thought to myself I’m not going to get over that bloody fence. I said, I’m too low down. So I opened up and took off and went around again. Did another circuit. Coming around the second time I thought to myself I’m going to clear that fence this time alright. And I did clear it by far too great a distance so the aircraft ran on and on and on and on and I thought this isn’t going to stop before it gets to that barbed wire fence. But fortunately it did stop. Just. The propeller still turning. Not enough space in front of me to open up the engine and put full rudder on and turn. So only one thing to do here. I undid my harness, got out, walked around to the back of the Tiger Moth. Caught hold of the, the tail skid. Pulled it backwards by main force until I thought there was enough space to take off. To open up again. Got back in. Strapped in. Back to lieutenant, and as I’d come in the last time I noticed him down in the corner of the field and he’d got his joystick in his hand and he was waving it. I thought I’ve got to get in this time. And when I got back he said, barked like that, he says, ‘Bring it back to Kroonstad,’ he said, ‘Make a good job of it because this is the last time you’re ever going to be at the controls.’ So back I went. The chief flying, I was given the chief flying instructor’s test and he agreed. Well yeah maybe he’s not the man for the job. Of course I was terribly disappointed because, well I’d failed. And I was going to have to do some other sort of job that didn’t really interest me. So, I got posted back to Pretoria which was another sort of a holding unit and they, from there they dispersed people onto navigator’s courses or bomb aimer’s courses. And after a few weeks I got posted to Port Elizabeth for elementary navigational training because navigation was in its infancy in those days. There was no electronics or anything of that sort. It was all done with charts and dividers and rulers and compasses of various sorts. And bearings and radio bearings and you had to learn about all that sort of thing and you got a test at the end. After, oh sort of meteorology that came into it as well and after about what, a month maybe there was a test. Just a theory test of course and, and I passed that all right. And the next step was to go to a South African Air Force aerodrome where you would put it all into practice and show that you could navigate an aircraft. I got posted to Port Alfred. Quite a small place down on the coast. Well as the name suggests of course, down on the coast. Pretty primitive sort of a place. Still, you were still on holiday from the hardships of life in England in wartime conditions and from there they did the training on Ansons. Avro Ansons. A sort of a workhorse of Air Forces all over the world. All over the world in fact. Avro Anson. A very, very stable reliable sort of aircraft. Never heard of any, any one of them suffering from engine failure or, or anything of that sort. You could rely on that. The pilots were South African Air Force pilots. And they took off at a time maybe two navigators and you. One would be for that particular trip the first navigator who would do all the work on the charts with the, with dividers and lines and calculations and time of arrival. And the other one obtained radio bearings for the first navigator to plot. Or with the, or visual bearings by looking out of the window and see, seeing what was down below and checking with a map that he’d got in front of him. He could see what township that was, you were over, for instance. Or using another thing called the astro compass which wasn’t a magnetic compass at all. It was more of a bearing place. He would take bearings on railway junctions and anything that would appear on his map he would keep constant check and pass the bearings to the first navigator to put on to his, on to his chart. And of course everything the first navigator did was in, in his, he had to enter up in his logbook. Without going in to much detail for instance the navigator had to work out the difference between the true airspeed, the airspeed that the pilot had got in front of him on his instrument panel but that was, that’s the higher you go, the lower you go so the air pressure’s different and it registered different. It doesn’t register the speed that you’re were actually going at. It records the speed that you’re going at through the air but not over the ground necessarily so you had to carry out an adjustment to that and tell the pilot what height, what speed you wanted to, him to put to fly at on his, on his air speed indicator. It was, it was a complicated business. It was solid, unremitting brain work. Anyway, there was nothing much to report of the, of the flying training. It was, it was all proceeding. I could cope with all that alright. Didn’t have any great difficulty and passed the, passed the practical tests and log keeping and all that sort of thing and was, by the time you’d done that you were considered qualified. And all the aircrew were guaranteed then to wear a brevet. The one wing brevet with an N in the middle for navigators. So, the picture in there. And the brevets were pinned on to a passing out parade with all due ceremony and you were given sergeant’s stripes. Yeah. That’s a bit of a sore point. Some, some were, some were given sergeant’s stripes and some were granted commissions which I thought, you know, that’s a bit, ‘How? Why didn’t I get a commission? Why do I get a sergeant’s stripes? Why did Walker, get a, why is he a pilot officer and I’m a sergeant?’ And I must have had some sort of a flaw as far as the Air Force was concerned and evidently not considered to be officer material. So it was off to the sergeant’s mess for me and so on. Sew sergeant’s stripes on, and, and sew the brevet on and wait for the next move to take place which would be back to, back to England again. Being, being qualified now and so as a navigator. Of course, back in England things had changed a bit because they were moving into the electronic age then with, with computers and a lot of the work being done by, by means such as that rather than the, rather than taking radio bearings. So it was going to need, further training was going to be needed. But the last, the last few times in the last few weeks at the, at Kroonstad while nobody was, nobody wants to make life awkward for you. You could do more or less as you pleased provided you behaved yourself. So used to go, used to go swimming and used to go to the pubs and the, the various service clubs and always welcomed. Got on very well with the South Africans. There was always a welcome from them. So my time in South Africa was, as far as relations with other people went, except for, except for Lieutenant Goddard of course, were always very cordial. So it was back to England again then on the troopship [pause] oh dear. Athlone. I think I’ve got that right. No. It was the Union Castle boat. Anyway, never mind about that. It was, it went from Durban and it was, by this time the Mediterranean had been opened up a bit. Tunisia had been, the desert had been more or less cleared and we, the ship was going to go up the east coast of Africa and up through the Red Sea and into, up through the Suez Canal. That’s right. What the, oh I was thinking of Panama, yes the Suez Canal and out in to the Mediterranean and we crossed. Went through the Mediterranean. Called in at, after leaving Durban we called in at [pause] at Kenya. What’s the city? What’s the sea port? Mombasa. Yeah. Called in at Mombasa and let off some, some South African Air Force people. Then went on. The next stop was in Tunisia. No. I’m wrong again. The next stop was in Sicily at Syracuse to let South African troops off there. Then through the Mediterranean. Through the straights of Gibraltar. Out into the Atlantic. Up round, up the coast of Portugal. Through, across the Bay of Biscay. Along the English Channel and in to the Thames Estuary and tied up at Tilbury. Yeah. So all very interesting. All very easy going. Nobody making life difficult. And you had to do a bit of duty now and again. For instance sometimes keeping you would be going up on watch and keeping watch for submarine periscopes for instance. That sort of thing. Or, or down in the, in the place where we, oh we had, sergeants had bunks. I think they were four high. Yeah. Yeah. I got the, I was unfortunate in getting the top bunk in a series of four. Which meant clambering up there. But well I didn’t mind that so much but there was a deck head light just above where my head was so the light was on all night long. But just one of those things you might say. And so back to England and on leave. No. Where did we go from England? To [pause] on leave. And I was posted up to oh yes, West Freugh which was up in Scotland. For, to complete, to carry on training in, because while navigating in South Africa being more or less open country with the odd town and village dotted about here and there in England navigating over big industrial area called for a different, different approach to the whole business. So up to West Freugh [pause] which is near the Mull of Kintyre over on the western side of the country. So most of our training flights went out westwards or, or north westwards. Out over the Irish Sea or Northern Ireland but you couldn’t go over southern Ireland of course. They were sort of a neutral country, and if you came down there you’d get interned. So you had to go up over the north of, north of Scotland and over the Ailsa Craig. Isle of Arran and places like that. And used to come back usually to the Isle of Man. And then back up back up to West Freugh again. Still in Ansons so there were still no electronics. It was still basic navigation. But as I said where the basic navigation in South Africa was very easy basic navigation in England in thick cloud or rain storms or the fact that you couldn’t see the ground or industrial areas it took more getting used to. It wasn’t an easy job. You couldn’t just look out of the window and say. ‘Oh yes. I know where we are.’ So, but not bad conditions. Air Force people I always found were inclined to treat you as, as a fellow. They, they weren’t so keen to boss you about. As long as you were carrying on doing your job and they, you let them get on and do their job and as far as training went then they were they were quite happy to accept you on a friendly basis. I lived in the sergeant’s mess and as I say everything went quite, quite nicely. A lot of the navigation was carried out by night time because, because the bomber force, proper bomber force operated mainly by night. So you had to get used to the, in the dark and not being able to see the ground. No lights. No, no street lights or anything of that sort down below. It was become, becoming acclimatised to flying in a different sort of, under different sort of conditions. So this went on ‘til, in the end after this training went on for about [pause] about three months I suppose. Yeah. Somewhere about that and you were qualified to, to proceed to the next stage of training which would be converting to heavier aircraft. The Air Force at the time was, wasn’t very well equipped with heavy aircraft. It’s the, the most reliable of all the bombers, of the bombers was the Wellington. There was, there was another one about the same size. The Armstrong Whitworth Whitley which I was unfortunate enough to draw a place where they trained on Whitleys. The Hampden wasn’t really a heavy bomber as such. They couldn’t carry a very big bomb load or go very far for that matter. The Fairey Battle was a light bomber which would only be used for dropping bombs on concentrations of enemy troops or bridges or railway junctions. That sort of thing. So from West Freugh I went on leave and, with the, with the instruction that when my leave was up I was to report to Abingdon near Oxford which was an old established Air Force aerodrome. And it, from there, well in fact there was no flying at all from there when I got there because they were just having runways made but their satellite was called Stanton Harcourt about ten miles away. And the flying took place from Stanton Harcourt in these Whitleys. Dreadful old machines. Ugly to look at. You could, they didn’t inspire you to take any pride. You could imagine men taking a pride in their Spitfires. The appearance of them gave you confidence. The Whitley didn’t give you any confidence at all. It just made you depressed to think what an ugly looking creature it was. No electronics in it of course. You got, you had to climb up but you climbed into the fuselage up a little ladder and then you made your way up a long fuselage. Then you came to the wing route, passed through the fuselage which was about two feet thick I suppose. You had to clamber over that. Work your way through a sort of a tunnel in the, in the structure, wing route structure, to get to the navigation table. And when you got there that was no great shakes because there wasn’t very much room there anyway. And you checked the escape hatches because there was, apart from the door you came in by there was only one other way out and that was a hole in, a trap door in the floor down in the nose. And to get down there you had to clamber down there. It was an awkward journey but you checked, always checked that the escape hatches, everything moved fairly freely and made sure that — no good in an emergency arriving there and you think, I can’t get this so and so handle open. Where do I go from here? So, well in particular it was the slow moving aircraft. It cruised at I suppose maybe a hundred and forty, a hundred and sixty as far as I can remember. I can’t remember exactly. Oh, I’ve missed out one thing. I can’t remember where it comes in. The formation of the crew. It must be when I came back from South Africa. Oh I’ve got to backtrack. Backtrack a little bit and go back to when I arrived at Abingdon in the first place. And there were, at any one time way a new posting when all the last lot were being cleared out all the new intake would consist of twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty bomb aimers, twenty radio operators, forty gunners and that was it. So, everybody was put in to one big hangar. All this lot. And the instruction was, ‘Right. We’ve got enough people here to form twenty crews for a heavy bomber.’ Twenty crews. A heavy bomber has a crew of seven, so ‘But you’ll find that you won’t have, be able to form a crew of seven because there will be no flight engineers here yet.’ Because, I’ll come back to that later. So the instruction was right the door was shut. Ok. Get busy. Sort yourselves out into crews. Into a crew. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, radio operator and two gunners. That’s six of you. So you sort of looked around and think oh, ‘Yeah well, what do we, where do we go from here?’ And I still can’t explain how it worked. Pilots, and you’d sort of look up and no I don’t like the look of him. Well, I’ll try that, no he’s got already fixed up. He’s got a navigator. Others were bomb aimers and so on were looking around for a likely. And then a pilot and a bomb aimer came over to me and said, ‘Are you fixed up?’ I said, ‘No. In fact, I’m not. They said, ‘Well would you like to join us?’ I said, ‘ Well yes, yes please.’ And so, so that had got one two three of us. Then he looked, or they looked or mainly the pilot doing it of course because it was his responsibility to form his own crew, to fill in the other vacancies. And so we got six of us. There was no flight engineer to make the seventh member for a heavy bomber because we were only training on Whitleys and twin-engined aircraft didn’t need a flight engineer. Four engined did but a twin-engined the pilot could look after the sort of engines himself as well as flying the aircraft. So the flight engineer would join us later. So we started off on these Whitleys. One particular flight I can remember in a Whitley. We set off from — what was the name of the place? Not [pause] what name did I say for the — not Abingdon. Anyway, we set off south westwards. You always flew away from Germany really because there was, the air space was less crowded. Set off down towards, we were routed to go down to Falmouth and over to the Scilly Islands and out into the Atlantic at some latitude and longitude point. Nothing there but just a point on the map and that was where you turned and started coming back again. So we were on our way out into the Atlantic and the weather was getting worse and worse. There was low pressure coming in which meant there was, it was coming from the southwest. Therefore the, the winds would be anti-clockwise and, and the low pressure would mean that the clouds were being forced downwards all the time. It was getting lower and lower. We couldn’t see anything down below and over the land you wouldn’t have been able to see anything else and in a Whitley that was no joke. So the pilot said, ‘I’m not going on in this,’ he says. By the way, about, I’ll come back to where I stopped in a minute. About names. The pilot was a warrant officer who had done some instructional training himself but nothing operational. The rest of us were all sergeants and, but there was never any, warrant officers they were always addressed as sir. The only non-commissioned officers were addressed as sir but he, we never addressed him as sir. Name. Our names fell into place and they were used without any hesitation. So he was, being Wilfred Bates, he wasn’t known as Wilfred. He was. We referred to when we were speaking to him as Wilf. Now, I was for some reason they balked at the Henry. They never called me Henry at all. I was known, always known as Wag. The bomb aimer, Lesley Roberts was known as Robbie. The, the mid-upper gunner was Thomas Worthington but known as Tommy. The rear gunner, Robert Thomas was known as Bob. So, and the flight engineer, when we got him, Eric Berry he was known as Berry but I was always Wag. And I didn’t, and even after that, all through the Air Force career even in, even in Germany I was always known as Waggy or Waggy. Anyway, yes the pilot said, ‘I’m not going along with this Wag,’ he said, this is absolutely pointless.’ He said, ‘I’m turning around. Give me a course back over Cornwall and back to, back to base. We got over Cornwall and the cloud cleared, lifted a little bit and there was a hole in the cloud. And I said to, I said, ‘Wilf, there’s a hole in the cloud down below. If we go down we get underneath I’ll be able to see the ground and establish my position.’ So we went down through the hole in the cloud. I established the position as Falmouth. And he said, he said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘Now, give me a course to the nearest aerodrome. I’ve had enough of this.’ He said, ‘Where, where can we put down?’ I said, ‘Well, St Eval is the nearest.’ So the bad weather had closed in again and he said, well he said, ‘Are we going to be able to land at St Eval?’ So the radio operator got the ok and, and he got a radio bearing of the St Eval and we homed on the St Eval beam and put down there. And so that was the end of that particular flight. Stayed there and had our dinner there and by the time the afternoon wore on we could get back to, back to Abingdon again. So that was the sort of difficulties you experienced on Whitleys. No other particular Whitley flight stays in my memory. They were all humdrum sort of things but ranging far afield. Ranging far up into the, out in to the northwest. Out in to the Atlantic. Down Cornwall direction. But mostly lasting about, about five, five or six hours and it was a bit of a strain in that I was working for, with solid brain work for five or six hours. Checking temperatures, wind velocities, radio bearings. Working out the distance to the next point or turning point. Time of arrival. It’s, six hours solid brain work is pretty wearing. While the rest of the crew of course having a pretty easy time. The bomb aimer, you’d think to yourself he’d have a particularly easy time because there weren’t any. Anyway, he was, the bomb aimer at all times even operational was an assistant navigator. He could be given pieces of apparatus to work. For instance I could, on Halifaxes I could ask him to take a bearing on the, on the Gee set while I took a bearing on the air position indicator. Or the other way around because the two things needed to be done at the same time. And so while he did, I put him on to the air position indicator mostly because that was, that was the easier thing to operate and I didn’t want to overstress him let’s say [laughs]. But we worked well together. There was never any, any hassle at all. But when the time came for, I forget what took place at the end of the [pause] Abingdon was an OTU or Operational Training Unit. In the early days by the time you’d finished on Whitleys and Wellingtons you were considered to be ready to sent, be sent on operations. But with the advent of heavy bombers and the advent of new radar and radio equipment and techniques and so on it was realised that you needed a further stage to get you ready to operate heavy bombers such as the Stirling, the Halifax and Lancaster. Stirling was a disappointment. It was too heavy. It hadn’t got the weight lifting capacity. It couldn’t get up as high as the Halifaxes and Lancasters. So it didn’t do an awful lot of bombing but it had other uses such as, they could do glider towing, jamming enemy radar and that sort of thing. But you needed, but for operational bombing, bombing just meant dropping bombs and causing as much damage as you could to the German war effort the, the crews needed a further training. So other units, new units were set up called Heavy Conversion Units. HCU. And the one I went to. Oh, I went to was at Snaith up in Yorkshire. Not far from, not far from Doncaster. And [pause] have I got this right? No. No, the squadron was, sorry, the one I went to was at Swanton Morley. No. That’s not correct. That’s down by Abingdon isn’t it? Oh dear. Oh dear. Could you turn it off?
[recording paused]
The Heavy Conversion I went to was at Marston Moor near York. This was in 4 Group and they would be flying Halifaxes from there because 4 Group flew only Halifaxes. And Lancasters went to 3 Group which was further South Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire. So we were converting on to, on to the four-engined Halifax and of course we would need a flight engineer. And that’s where Eric Berry joined us to make up the seven man crew. So the aircraft themselves were, well they were what the Americans referred to as war weary. They’d done their whack. They’d been damaged possibly. Repaired. They’d served their time and they weren’t in the most reliable condition but the ground staff did a wonderful job keeping them flyable and usable anyway. So we got our seven crew now and we’re ready to start genuine bombing, Bomber Command training. This incorporated the use of new equipment as well, because by this time Gee, the Gee set had been fitted into all bomber aircraft. I should explain that the Gee set was, relied on transmissions from the ground from three stations. A slave station, an A station and a B station and these were transmitted and they could be picked up by the Gee set receiver in a bomber and the, which the navigator worked of course and by taking, he could get his bearings off there. He could get his position off there and plot these bearings as he got the information that he got on the Gee set on to a special map that he’d got on his navigation table. And he could establish your position to within a quarter of a mile. Later on, over the Ruhr to within a quarter of a mile. In my estimation, over England it was even better than that. It was spot on to, to within a hundred yards or so. So it was amazing. Night time, thick cloud, no view of the ground, no view of the stars. No view of anything at all in fact. And you could establish your position to within a hundred yards. Marvellous. So I could get my position off the, off the Gee set. At the same time I’d get the air position from the bomb aimer, plot the two of them, join those two up and I’d got the wind direction and speed. So I could look ahead. I could plan my course to the next turning point knowing that the wind velocity would be different because of course as you fly through a weather system whether a cyclone or an anti-cyclone the wind direction and, no not the velocity the wind direction is certainly going to change and you’ve, you can, you need to constantly update your knowledge of what the wind velocity is and maybe even look ahead and in your own brain build in a few degrees extra to compensate for the change that you know is going to carry on happening. It was all, it all sounds a bit vague but it became second nature in time. If I got the bearing that I wanted, that I wanted the aircraft to fly to to get to the next turning point or the target or whatever I’d work out, work it out on the chart and then add on or take off a few degrees as to whether I thought the wind was veering or backing. So a little bit of brain work had to come in extra off the cuff. And there were other things to think of too. When you were approaching a turning point if there was, if it was a sharp, suppose you were coming up and then turning on to making a sort of a sharp turn to the next turning point it was no good telling the pilot there, ‘Turn on to that next course,’ because he would be, he would do that. You had to tell him half a minute before so that he could get the aircraft onto a turn ready to come onto that correct line that you’d got on your chart. So even with all the aids and so on it was still not nothing that you could sit back and leave it to, leave it to the machinery to do. But no. In later days I used to, this is not all that long, well yes it is. It’s maybe ten, maybe twenty years ago now I used to teach navigation at the Wisbech Air Training Corps and we used to go over to get, you used to go over to Marham at times where they had, what was the — ?
Other: Chipmunks or something.
HW: Hmmn?
Other: Chipmunks were they there, Henry. There.
HW: The large aircraft that they had. A Victor.
Other: Oh the Victor or the [unclear]
HW: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: Oh yes the V days.
HW: And to show the lads what the navigational equipment’s like and we had the station navigation officer would conduct us round and show us around the aircraft and then show us the navigation system and he’ll say, he’ll say, ‘You see, you’ve got, in a Victor you’ve got two navigators. One is the navigator radar who takes all the bearings and the other is the navigator plotter who plots it all on the charts and works out the new courses.’ So, you see the equipment changing like that in techniques and tactics have to change to keep up with it. It was, they were always very supportive. I said to the navigator, a plotter and then the navigator radar, I said, How often do you need to take bearings?’ He said, ‘Well about every, about every ten minutes or so. I said, ‘Well what do you do in the meantime then?’ He said, ‘Well. Read a book.’ [laughs] And they, the navigator, these two navigators at their combined navigation table they were facing back into the, towards the tail of the aircraft and right by the side — suppose this is, suppose you are sitting at the navigation table and the door, the entry door is in the fuselage was just to the right of the navigation table. So what happened in an emergency was that the pilot would do whatever’s necessary to get that door open or, or ejected. I don’t know what they did. Whether they, but anyway the two navigators were standing or siting handy and all they had to do was stand up, take a couple of steps to the right and they were out of the door because they were on parachute seats you see. Or they had parachute packs on. But yes. Tactics changed. Now where had we got to? Back to, back to Marston Moor I think. Yes. Well, there’s not much more to say about Marston Moor. Oh well, yeah. The favourite pub. I used to go out for some reason with the mid-upper gunner. I don’t know why I used to go with him in particular. Perhaps he was a good drinker [laughs] perhaps he was the best drinker. We took, got station bikes and we used to bike up to Tockwith. Up near Selby anyway. And I might be — anyway we got the station bicycles and we used to go up to this pub which was in a little village and it wasn’t near an operational Air Force station but used to get quite a few ground staff. It seemed to be a favourite one for ground staff. There was no electricity laid on. The stone flagged floor, the deal tables and the two landladies both, both pretty old, wore clothes entirely of black. Long black dresses and hair done up in buns and so on. They’d bring out, when it got dark bring out Aladdin lamps which worked like primus stoves. You could pump them up and they would provide the illumination. They’d bring those out and put them on the table and a singsong would develop. And the, one of the favourite one I can remember was, “Knees Up Mother Brown.” And one of the landladies, when prompted would always get up on the table and we would all sing, “Knees Up Mother Brown,” and she would caper about on the table. And she must have been in her eighties anyway. So, and but everybody got on well. I mean there were a lot of WAAFs there. There must have been a station where they needed, perhaps a clerical station of some sort. I don’t know but there were a lot of WAAFs there. But there was no standing on ceremony. No ranking or anything of that sort. We were all in there for a booze up so that was it. And then chucking out time. Chucking out time in those days was very rigid.
Other: 10 o’clock.
HW: Yeah. Chucking out time was at 11 o’clock. No. Chucking out time. If you stayed after chucking out time the landlady or landlord could be prosecuted for allowing drinking out of hours. So a quarter of an hour before chucking out time they’d give you, give you a warning. They’d ring a bell like a ships bell. And you knew if you wanted another pint to get one now and drink it in a quarter of an hour. And the police used to hover around outside pubs to check that there wasn’t any drinking after hours. They’d come in and have a look. So anyway.
[recording paused]
HW: So, after Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor we were now a fully qualified operational aircrew. Fit to be set loose against the Germans. So posting took place then to, to individual bomber squadrons. From Marston Moor of course being in 4 Group we knew we were going to be on Halifaxes and our crew under Warrant Officer Bates was posted to Snaith which was near Doncaster. This was only a wartime aerodrome. It wasn’t it, wasn’t a pre-war one like with the, with the big buildings, comfortable buildings. It only had Nissen huts, wartime hangars, runways had been laid of course because heavy bombers heavily loaded needed, they needed a hard surface. They didn’t want, no good having them sinking in to soft mud in the winter time. Heavy Lancaster and a Halifax were almost exactly the same from the performance point of view. So I won’t differentiate between them. The weight of a heavy bomber fully loaded was sort of the aircraft itself, bombs, petrol, the crew and all that. The whole, the whole lot weighed some thirty tons. The take-off weight was about thirty tons so obviously you don’t need you need you don’t need soft earth underneath a thirty tonne weight so Snaith did at least have runways. The buildings themselves were sergeant’s mess, comfortable enough and nobody hassled you at all. Nobody bothered you. If operations weren’t on you were, the navigators used to head for the navigation section really and you could read over there or you could, you could talk to other people over there. You could look up info. Get any new information. You could make yourself a cup of coffee over there. It was it was easy going. You were accepted by the station navigation officer as a fully qualified navigator and from that point of view you were on the same footing as he. Sorry. On the same footing as he was. He was running the place, yes but from the navigational point of view you were on the same level and he accepted you as such. Right. So, to start with we did a few cross-country’s on the, on the Halifaxes at Snaith. You didn’t have our own particular aircraft. You used what aircraft was, that aircraft was available. Some pilots did have their own aircraft but we never got around to that. So we did cross-countrys of about some, about eight hours each. Long, long cross-countrys using new navigational equipment. One, I still used Gee but there had been a new one developed called [pause] oh dear, my memory’s getting something dreadful. Sorry. Maybe it’ll come back to me in a minute or two. Yeah. It’s come back to me now. H2S. H2S. You’ll say well that’s that’s the chemical formula for sulferated hydrogen isn’t it? That smells like, well politeness. Anyway, there you go. And with the people, the person who created, christened it H2S said yes, sulferated hydrogen. This H2S, like the sulferated hydrogen it stinks. So he hadn’t thought much of it. But it worked on a different system. The Germans could jam Gee because it depended on signals being sent out. Being sent out from Britain. H2S depended on signals being sent out by each aircraft itself. It had a revolving scanner underneath which as it went around it projected electronic beams and the Germans could pick those up so if you put the H2S on, if everybody had the H2S on then the Germans would have plenty of bearing. Oh, there’s an aircraft there. Look there’s another. There’s another. And so I preferred to switch, not to use H2S if possible. It was very useful over the coast but because beams projected by the H2S if they, if they came down from the aircraft and hit a building they were reflected back up to the aircraft itself which was acceptable. If they, if they went over and hit the sea they were reflected off that. They just went up and on their way so you could see what was sea clearly and you could see what was buildings clearly. So near coastlines or in estuaries or near big rivers it was useful but another reason why I didn’t leave it on for very long was that the German fighters realising that H2S were, transmissions were being made by bombers they developed a radar for their own fighters. Developed a radar where if you switched on your H2S he could, the German fighter pilot looking at his, looking at his radar would say, ‘There’s one over there. Right,’ And home in on him and creep on him gradually without him being aware of the fact. So, so that’s why I preferred to not to. Anyway, Gee was a better bet. It was a safer bet. But, but so the German pilots started, they started using their, their radar. They’d take a quick look. See an H2S transmission and then head in that direction and switch off. And then they’d take another quick peep. And so they kept, they kept just taking a peep so they knew they were going in the right general direction. So Bomber Command developed a piece of apparatus which overrode the German pilot switch and switched on his radar and left it switched on. He couldn’t switch it off. So, so it was a constant battle back and forth, back and forth. Something was developed, a counter was found. Something else. And so everything that was developed something was developed to, to neutralise it. So, right. The first two, the first two operations I went on. The first one, they were both daylight in fact and the first one was extremely easy. It was to a small town just just over the German border which the Germans at that time, the German border with France that is, the Germans had just been moved back out of France to a town called Soest, S O E — no. I’ve got it wrong. Julich. J U L I C H. And that was, they were using that as a garrison town and a reinforcement town and they were bringing their, back their rear troops up and to that town. That was their focal point and they were dispersing them along to wherever was necessary. So it only meant that we were over German held territory for about ten minutes or so which was, well it was a bonus. And of course the Germans hadn’t got their heavy anti-aircraft fire properly organised because it was too near the battlefront. The heavy anti-aircraft armament was near the big cities. So there was very little flak and we were able to fly in at a low, a low height of twelve thousand feet. We dropped our bombs at twelve thousand feet. The bomb load was normally the same. Normally about, about five tons. Something like that. A mixture. And maybe a two thousand pounder. A couple of thousand pounders, a few five hundred pounders, incendiaries if it was a target that would burn. So we dropped our bombs in. Dropped our bombs in Dropped our bombs, turned around, back home again and it was all over in no time. No hassle. Just across country in effect. Although Lancasters were attacking a town further south called Düren and looking out at the time when we were over our target I saw a Lancaster blow up over there. Just a big explosion. Anyway, the next one was, the next operation was at Munster which is in the north of, well it’s north of the Ruhr anyway. It’s not in a big industrial area. It’s, I don’t know what reason it was being attacked for but also a daylight and the opposition — very little in the way of opposition. Not very much flak. Not very — no fighters seen. It was it was a piece of cake again. I should say for anti-aircraft fire, light anti-aircraft fire was, was something to be reckoned with up to ten thousand feet. From there onwards it went on to 88 millimetre flak where the, with the cells bursting from there. Bursting at whatever height they’d been fused for. At any height up to over twenty thousand feet. So there were those two sorts of flak. They could and the opposition from German fighters, they were armed with cannon which shot, which fired a sort of a pattern. Their, their machine, their cannon belts were made up the same as their machine guns and the same as ours I think. In groups of five. We had in our machine gun bullets belts. We had two ball ammunition. Ordinary bullets. Two ball. One armour piercing, one incendiary and one tracer. So, so those, those groups of five as the gunner was operating his machine guns these, these were passing through in blocks of five. Tracers so as you could see where they were going. Red incendiaries so that they would set the, set the, perforate the petrol tanks, set the aircraft on fire. On fire. Also armour piercing and the two ball for general havoc. Anyway, that was Munster. And as I say then after that the remaining six that I did, I did eight altogether, the remaining six were all on heavy industrial targets. All, all in the Ruhr. Yeah. That vast German industrial complex. And they were at the, it was, it was a complex of so many cities that the whole thing merged together into one sort of a general area. They were cities like Duisburg, Essen, Cologne and so on. They were so much joined together. They were separate cities as well. So the, so much built joined together that bombs could safely be dropped there and they were going to do some damage. We were targeted on factories. Steelworks. Coking plants. Electricity supply places. Aircraft factories. Transport factories. Railway junctions and marshalling yards. That sort of thing. But as I say we were given that. That point. And that’s what we’d set the bomb, the bomb aimer would set his bombsights up according to that information. But even if you missed your target you were still going to, you were still going to bomb out some workers or were going to cause damage, houses. And really the amount of labour that was needed, was caused, with the amount of workers that Germany had to keep in Germany because of the depredations of Bomber Command. That gets entirely overlooked. Because when you come to think of it you’ve got to keep the firemen at home haven’t you? Fire brigades. You’ve got to keep the gunners, the anti-aircraft gunners there. You’ve got to keep the hospitals staffed and working. You’ve got to keep the population fed. You’ve got to, you’ve got to clear all bomb damage. All the rubble and so on. You’ve got to keep the lorries available for doing that. You’ve got, it’s just the amount of labour that Bomber Command caused to be held at home instead of being used in the actual ground fighting. And also, of course their fighters. They needed fighters to attack Bomber Command and so many fighters that could be used on the front line had to be held at home. And it’s generally overlooked what an enormous contribution, apart from the damage to the German factories and so on occasionally the sidelining damage that was done, caused by Bomber Command is, well you just, you see pictures of cities that have been bombed and you don’t realise then the amount of work that has gone to clearing that lot. Of course, as far as bomber crews were concerned the greatest fear was coming down in a parachute over a city that you were in the process and in fact you could get, well, down, well land in the city and be killed by bombs dropping from your own lot. So that was the greatest fear. Bomb. The large cities were covered by mainly by a ring, not a complete ring, by a belt of anti-aircraft fire. They knew that the bombers would be coming from the west so they got there. They had a ring of heavy anti-aircraft guns and, and then if over the target itself they didn’t, not so much heavy anti-aircraft guns the fighters would roam in that area. So they had the bombers had to contend with the anti-aircraft fire, collision with other aircraft because there were so many coming in at any one time. The risk of collision was very great. Bombs dropping from other aircraft flying a bit higher up than you were. The chances of trouble were only all too present. So back to, so you could you got the, you were on the final leg. Imagine now we’re on a final leg to the target of the Krupps Steel Works at Essen. The biggest industrial, the most concentrated industrial area in Germany and obviously of prime importance. So we’re on the run up. About ten minutes before we get there the bomb aimer says to me, ‘I’ll get my bombsights set up and all ready,’ because he guided the pilot in over markers laid by Pathfinder Force just previously. If they were visible. If not he’d have to use his bombsight. The information as he’d already keyed in to his bombsights as to where to drop the bombs. But of course it wouldn’t be so accurate but as I say any damage was beneficial to us, so we’re on the money. So about, so he lies down in front of his bombsight and he’s got, he’ll say to the pilot about a minute before, ‘Bomb doors open.’ And then he’ll guide the pilot up and he’ll be saying to him, ‘Left. Left. Left. Steady. Steady. Steady. Right. Right. Steady. Steady. Steady. Steady. Bombs gone.’ And then he’d have to fly on. We’d have to fly on, on that same course for a half a minute because it took that long for the bombs to get, to get down to the ground because in that half minute, when that half minute was up the cameras in the aircraft would photograph the point of impact. And so when we got back home, I mean you might not be able to see very much, just, just a lot of fires and just a lot of rubble but anyway that was a draw. Fly on half a minute and then after that turn for home. And the route home could be a bit more direct. On the way out it had to be a bit, not straightforward with a good sort of different legs in it so the Germans wouldn’t know, wouldn’t say oh yes he’s heading for Osnabruck. They’d say, well he’s heading towards the Ruhr. Yeah. And then in fact it looks as if it goes to be a bit the northern section of the Ruhr. So they get their fighters up there waiting and then the bomber force would turn and go down. Everything was done to try and confuse them. To catch their forces often by some sort of offbeat move. Army Co-operation Command used to fly Mosquitoes. What was it? Who’s flying Mosquitoes. Bomber Support Group. They used to patrol in Mosquitoes over German airfields, fighter airfields and catch any coming in to land or prevent any taking off and just, just make life impossible for them so they’d hang about. Bomber Support Group they were a great help in that. As I say various, many moves were made to try to, to try to reduce losses as much as possible. Anyway, so we did eight. As I say the eighth trip, all the others had been on the industrial areas of the Ruhr except for one Osnabruck which was nothing special to say about that. The, the eighth trip we were down for, marked down for an attack on Duisburg. Yes. Well ok we’d been there before. No big deal. So all the flight planning was taking place at briefing by the station commander of why we were going there in the first place. The navigation officer, the, the meteorological officer, the bombing leader, and they would all give information as their, the people they were talking to needed to know. So, so and then the station commander comes on, ‘Well, there you are lads. Off you go. Give them a good pasting won’t you?’ Or sometimes he said, ‘Well I shall be coming with you tonight lads so watch out. I’ve got my eye on you.’ That sort of thing. It was all done in a good humoured sort of way. And many a commanding officer failed to return from this. You know, it just, it was the luck of the gods. An anti-aircraft shell could hit him as well as somebody who was on their first trip. So, it was, it was so much was a matter of luck. Some hundred thousand men flew with Bomber Command and of those figures vary a little bit from here and there but some fifty seven thousand were killed. So over half were killed. So the chances of — you had to do thirty trips. That was called a tour. And if you did your thirty trips you got rested for six months and sent to Heavy Conversion Units or something like that to carry on. To give training. And then you come back for another twenty trips. So with fifty trips to do and the loss rate being on average four percent fifty trips tells me that in twenty five you’ve had your lot. If you survived any beyond the twenty five you were lucky. If you, if you get caught in less than twenty five you can’t complain. And of course some figures vary again. Some, I think, I think it was some, no I’m not, I have the figure of four thousand in mind but it must be higher than that were shot down and taken prisoner survived and came down by parachute or crash landed and got taken prisoner. I’m not sure about the figure there. Anyway, to come back to the last trip to Duisburg the weather forecast was supposed to be, oh the meteorological officer said it was reasonable. The forecast wasn’t all that bad. ‘You should be fairly, there will be rain storms at times but it should have cleared over the target by the time you get there. You may have a bit of difficulty with the weather but it’s not enough to, to cancel the operation. So be prepared for a bit of rough weather.’ But the weather, as I said it was part of the navigator’s job to calculate wind velocity and direction and the first, as soon as we were airborne and set course and we were, got up to a reasonable height and I checked the wind velocity I thought this is nowhere near. This is far stronger than, than was forecast. We were forecast for twenty thousand feet somewhere about forty knots. You know the difference between a knot and a [laughs] about forty knots and the further, the one that I calculated at twenty thousand feet was a hundred and two knots. Which would be about a hundred and ten statute miles an hour and so the force became widely scattered. Nobody, I think some navigators thought to themselves, ‘No. A hundred and two? A hundred and two? No. I’ve made a mistake somewhere. Go back. Use the Met forecast.’ Where others would think — ‘Yeah, I made a bit of a mistake. Let’s say, let’s say eight knots.’ So it just caused widespread confusion. So, and by the time we arrived over the target there was no sign of any target marking at all. So the, as we were, as we approached I gave the bomb aimer the aiming point position to put on his bombsight and he dropped his bombs according to that. And, and we turned away and headed, well we did the extra half minute which we were supposed to do and took a photograph of nothing at all in fact. And then turned for home and so we were heading it’s not all that far from the Ruhr to the German border in fact. But that was where the Germans fighters were. They caught on to the fact that the target had been, most aircraft had seemed to drop their bombs over in the Duisburg area and now they’ll be heading roughly north west back for England again. So, and, and one caught us. We turned away and were going quite nicely. Everything seemed to be in order for an orderly return to England. It was the only worry would be with the wind at a hundred and two knots are we going to have the fuel to get there? But anyway you keep going as long as you can. Just bear that one in mind. But so everything seemed to be going alright. Everything was in working order and then a call came through on the intercom, on the intercom [pause] Yeah. Yeah. ‘Corkscrew left. Corkscrew left.’ And you were familiar with the corkscrew of course and it would be going, it would be going and so it meant that one of the gunners. Mid-upper probably. I don’t know. You can’t tell. Had seen a, had spotted a German fighter and he knew he was positioning for an attack. So there was a spiral and, and then and then as the German fighter was manoeuvred further that turned into a diving turn. Diving turn left. Did I say corkscrew right?
Other: No. Corkscrew left.
HW: Corkscrew left. Oh, well there would be a diving turn to the right and so on and the other way round depending which side the German fighter was attacking from. There were two types of German fighter. There was the Junkers 88, a twin-engined one which had a pilot, upward firing cannon which, which of course cannon fired explosive shells. It could. We had no downward looking radar because our downward looking radar was called Monica. The German fighters were homing on to that so that wasn’t used any more. Then he could come along underneath undetected, match his speed with the speed of the bomber fix his, sight his cannon on the precise spot he was going to fire at. And then, as I said the wing tanks were the favourites. Yeah. The other method was by and there were more of these than Junkers 88 was a Messerschmitt 110 which had a crew of three. Which had a crew of two, err a crew of three. The pilot, a radar operator and a gunner. And so the, his method of attack was that he would stand up high up and to one side or another. Usually to the right, to the bomber’s going that way he would be to the bomber’s right hand side and behind because his speed was going to be greater than the one and he was, he could pick his point. If the bomber, if the bomber the bomber was flying sort of straight and level he would come down and aim at the spot that he wanted to set on fire. He could open fire with his cannons and the machine gunner in the turret could use the, could use the machine guns and the, the radar operator of course was carrying out his order. I have in my possession the, the fighter pilot’s report of the aircraft, of three aircraft who, which shot down bombers at that, around about that area and that time. And I’ve got the full report of each pilot and his gunner and his radar operators as well in German and of course I’ve had those, I’ve got photocopies of those and so I know the name of the blighter that shot us down. And I thought, I’ve had them translated into English of course but, but I thought to myself at the time, or well I hope they get those [pause ] and then I thought — no. No. Not fair. They’re only doing their duty the same as we are. You couldn’t, the only thing I’ve got against them is that they succeeded [laughs] So, so, ok our wing tanks were on fire. The engineer standing just behind the pilot says, ‘Wilf, we’re on fire.’ And I looked back up, up the stair from my position down in the nose and I could see a roaring mass of flame just behind the, where the, where the wing root was because burning petrol came swilling into the fuselage. Through the, through the wing root and of course also that was where the oxygen bottles were stored and they got, they’d have gone off like bombs themselves. A nearly the empty petrol tank was going to explode like a bomb and the, oh the burning petrol coming into the fuselage would have so weakened the main spar that it would have just melted. So it was obvious that nothing could be done. The pilot had no hesitation in giving the order and every member of the crew immediately he gave the order, ‘Jump. Jump.’ it was — I was the first one to answer, ‘Navigator jumping.’ And, and then I could get off. Each person had to acknowledge in turn that they’ve heard. That they had heard. If anybody was too, was badly injured and couldn’t move he would say on his intercom and the pilot would, if possible but what can you do if a chap can’t? It was as much as a man could do to look after himself without dealing with other people as well. So, ‘Navigator jumping.’ Off with the helmet and oxygen mask and intercom microphone and kick a leg away, the legs of the navigation table which was on the, on the port wall and it just flopped down against the wall. When I stood up my seat which was attached to the starboard wall was on springs and it just folded itself up when I stood up. So I left a big open space. There was a trap door on the floor. About, about what shall we say? Three feet by two possibly. All I had to do was bend down, turn a handle in that trap door, raise it, when you’ve got it about the vertical you can lift it off its hinges. So I lifted that, lifted it off its hinges, turned it diagonally and dropped it through. Dropped it through the hole and there was a big open space with me [knocking sound] ready to go. So all I had to do was just slip through. And the others, the bomb aimer should have been, why he didn’t come next I just don’t know. But then the radio operator would have been the third out through that hatch. The other crew members would get out where ever they could in fact. So as I stood on the front, on the, on the edge of this hole, the front edge of this hole facing backwards. Not facing into the slipstream you understand. Facing backwards. As I dropped through so my parachute pack which was on my chest caught on the front of the, the exit hatchway. Caught on the front and lifted it up. Up above my head. So I had to reach up behind my back. Try and pull it down. Pull it down a bit. The escape, the handle on the parachute pack was facing backwards of course, it had flopped up. Facing back. Pulled that big metal ring and it, it released the little pilot chute inside. A little parachute which was on springs so that little parachute sprang open and as the air got in it it got into the slipstream so it took, pulled out the main canopy of the parachute and so and then once the, once the air got into that main canopy then, then that was ok. It was opened and you were on the safe side. But, but I thought after, after falling for, well not very long, a few seconds I saw the flashes of lightning, thunder. You don’t get thunderstorms in December. I thought — no. That’s not, it’s not thunderstorms. It’s anti-aircraft shells bursting [laughs] I dropped through that lot fairly quickly. So, but it was an easy enough descent by that time but my main worry was that I knew that the when the air, when I jumped out of the aircraft it was behind British lines in, in Holland. The Germans had just been pushed back across the River Maas and they, the British forces were up to one bank of the Maas and the Germans, well they’d moved back a few miles from the river into, into safe territory. We were going to have to cross the River Maas somehow too if we were ever going to get into Germany. So that was the Germans. So we moved back till so we got a good gunnery range in front of us and if they tried to cross we got them. But I knew quite well that on the average if the wind was a hundred and two knots or a hundred and two miles an hour or down to a hundred and ten miles an hour on the way down —suppose at ground level it’s forty miles an hour so that means, that means sort of, that means that the average wind speeds from my descent is going to take, I’m going to, it’s going to take me from fourteen thousand feet. It’s going to take me about a quarter of an hour to get down. And in a quarter of an hour I’m going to drift fifteen miles anyway. So if I drift fifteen miles I’m going to cross the River Maas and drift about twelve miles into German territory. So if the wind had been an east wind of course, the other way around that would have been me home and dry. But the west northwest wind, it was taking me over fifteen miles on my parachute. I thought that’s a bit much really and, but as I said well I could say to myself this is what’s going to happen. There’s no good whingeing about it so, but I’ve got to be ready. And getting near the ground I couldn’t see because it was raining at the time as well and it’s, there were no lights of any sort. This was about 6 o’clock in the morning and so it wasn’t really light. It was, it was just beginning to get light. And I came down through the branches of an apple tree or it might have been a plum tree for all I know. I wasn’t in any position to assess the fruiting capabilities of the tree. Came down through this tree and hit the ground. Now the instructions were when you hit the ground, when you, when you come down by parachute in enemy territory you’ve got to, the first thing you do is roll your parachute and hide it. Well mine was draped over the top and tangled up in the branches of the tree so I thought well that one’s not on. I couldn’t roll my parachute up and hide it. Furthermore, on looking up at the, it was in the back garden of a house this tree. And looking up at the bedroom windows I saw a curtain apart and a face looked out like that. There was no good hanging around here. I took my Mae West life jacket off and threw that, yeah I still had it on coming down. And threw that down and headed down the side of the house out through the front gate. Realised I was in a little village but with houses well scattered. It wasn’t, it wasn’t packed together. I turned left. Why I turned left. One way’s as good as the other I suppose. And I heard marching feet so I turned the other way [laughs] walked about, oh about a quarter of a mile through the village and out into the open fields. A German soldier was walking down the road towards me and I thought, I just said to him as I went past, ‘Morgen,’ [laughs] and he said, ‘Morgen,’ and he went on his way. He, he was on the same bit as me. If I don’t cause him any trouble he won’t cause me any. So I went on my way and by this time it was almost broad daylight. I kept clear of roads as far as possible and walking across country my plan was to walk. Walk southwards in to occupied France, no France wasn’t occupied then. Walk north westwards, get up behind, because our forces were in Holland. This was about the time of Arnhem. Walk around. If I’m clear around that corner and hide up in, in Holland. Wait till the German advance over, overtook the British sorry the British advance overtakes me and I’ll be free again. So that was the general intention. Walk northwest. Right. So I’ve got his far. Almost broad daylight. It was cold. I was wet. Still suffering I suppose a bit of shock about the turn that events had taken. But in this barn I noticed that there was a ladder leading up to the loft. And I went up. I thought that’s a good place to hide. Walked up the ladder, went up the ladder, found it was full of hay. Oh yes. Comfortable as well. Took off the wet flying suit which was no point in doing really. I thought I’ll stuff that with hay but that wasn’t, looking back I was, that was futile. But anyway I’ll get a bit of sleep. So I managed to drift off. Oh I examined what I had to assist me. I’d got, I’d got what we called a Pandora’s Box. It was a little, a little plastic box. Fairly thin. Maybe, maybe about six inches wide and four inches tall and, and bent around like that so that it would fit nicely inside the, the flying, the thigh pocket on your flying suit. So I had that. I had, and in it there were Horlicks tablets, barley sugars, chewing gum. I don’t know why chewing gum. Energy tablets. Water for your purifying tablets, rubber water bottle like a, like a football bladder in fact. A compass. I don’t remember anything else — oh money. I must admit I can’t remember the other thing. Oh a map. Yeah. A map, printed on silk of the area that we were flying over. And so, so I rationed myself to two barley sugars a day and four Horlicks tablets and I thought that I’d got to make that last a week. If by the end of the week if there’s no hope of anything else I’ll have to chuck it in. So, so, so after that there was, there was nothing else. I had no — oh yes. Yes I did. I had a, always carried inside my flying suit a 38 Webley revolver. Aircrew were allowed to draw revolvers if they wanted them. You didn’t have to but if you wanted one because there were stories about what had happened. I don’t know whether they’re authentic or not but stories about aircrew coming down in areas that had been bombed and getting strung up on lamp posts and shot and beaten with iron bars and so on. I thought to myself if I get a crowd converging on me there’s one in this six shot. One for myself but five of them are coming with me. So, you know, I had that as well. So I used to, I’d walk by night time then to avoid detection and find somewhere to hide up for the day. Sleep for the day. Once I’d dug out the — some straw out of a, like a haystack but it was straw stacks so it was fairly loose. I dug out a hole. Burrowed in there and I was hidden. Well hidden for the day and fairly warm as well. Another time I was approaching a farm house. Well it was open country but as I said I always stuck to open country if possible. In open country, but it looked a bit dilapidated. I thought I don’t know. I thought surely nobody lives there. I thought if there’s nobody lives there it would be a good place to hide up. So I walked up the bit of a path to the door, front door and as I as I got almost to the door the door opened. An old German lady looked out with a little girl standing, standing beside her. The little girl about three years old I suppose. I should think she was the, her husband was probably called up. This was their, their — she would be this child’s grandmother. That’s what I’m trying to, I’m trying to say. And she was white haired and wore glasses and so on. And she looked at me and there’s me standing there with a six shot revolver. I thought [laughs] I thought, poor old soul. I thought put it away again. I felt a real heel threatening an old German lady with a revolver. Anyway, she, sorry, sorry she beckoned me inside and she gave me a slice of bread and an apple and a drink of milk. And so, so then I left her. I went out. She, she said, ‘Herr Paulsen come. Herr Paulsen come.’ I didn’t know who Herr Paulsen was but I thought well I don’t want to know anybody who’s got H E R R in front of their name so I left her to it and, but it was broad daylight then. I walked about. I hid up as soon as I could in a copse full of wet brambles and so on, and blackberry bushes and that sort of thing. And so that’s how I spent the rest of that day. On we walks. Nothing else much too report really. Another time, getting, about four or five days [pause] yeah, yeah about, about four, about five days I was getting lightheaded by that time with nothing. Nothing to eat except these few tablets. There were no crops in the fields. No fruit in the fields or anything of that sort. I was getting lightheaded. Not thinking clearly. I came to a railway embankment and I thought, oh yeah, there was no, no level crossing or anything of that sort but I’ve got to climb over that thing. Up and over and down the other side. I thought — no. No. What am I doing? All I’ve got to do is climb up on to the track, walk along the track until I come to a station, buy a ticket and get back home again. So after about a quarter of a mile or so I must have come to myself. No. What the hell am I doing? Then I got down off the track. I went on my way. So then the night after that, still hungry and not thinking very clearly instead of sticking to the fields, this was night time of course, I always walked at night. Walking I walked down the main road of the village intending to sort of be through and out the other side. But unfortunately as I walked, stumbling along by this time I heard, ‘Halt verdacht.’ Oh blimey. And a click of a rifle bolt. And I thought oh well there you go. I said, I know little bit of German. I don’t know how I come by it but the odd word or two. I got this, ‘Halt,’ and the click of the rifle bolt and I said ‘Ich binn, ich binn ein Englisher flieger’ and that’s, that was enough German. He said, he said, he’d got the rifle bolt, he said, ‘Hände hoch.’ I got that, ‘Put your hands up.’ And then he said, he said get the order right oh yeah he had a dugout nearby with, with a little a fire. A stove, inside. That was his sentry post in fact. He said, ‘Komm.’ And he walked along behind me and he, he said ‘Ein, ein’ I thought or something which obviously meant in. Get inside. So I went inside and there was a bunk in there and floor boards and this sort of wood burning stove. And that was where he, that was his sentry post and, and he didn’t quite know what, sort of, what to do next. I said, I don’t know if my German was correct or not. I said with, one hand like that said, ‘Ich habe hier eine pistole.’ I don’t know what the German is for pistol. Do you?
Other: No [laughs]
HW: Anyway, but he got the meaning meant something. He said, ‘Ah,’ I put my hand back up a bit. He said, ‘Ah,’ he said and he mimed it [pause] and said, ‘Langsam. Langsam,’ which I gathered meant ‘slowly.’ He said, what he was meaning was take it out and put it on the table but slowly. No sudden movement like that or else you get, that’s your lot. So after that was done he gave me some of his bread, some of his rations and some bread and some pate that also went with it and a drink of coffee out of his, acorn coffee it would have been of course, out of his, out of a flask and I had to wait until he said, he motioned that I should take off my wet flying suit and lay it down over in front of the, in front of his heater and that I should lie on the floor and if, he made the sign that people that make when they’re going to sleep. His hand beside the side of his head inviting me to go to sleep in the warmth and that. So I thought what a decent old bloke. He doesn’t want any trouble. I’m in shape to give him any trouble so let’s take it from there. So I went to sleep. Proper sleep I’d had for a long time. And then the next morning his relief arrived from a nearby German aerodrome. There was a German aerodrome I found out later at a town called Alpen. It was a fighter aerodrome. Yeah. A fighter aerodrome. And it was about, poss about three miles. Something like that away. And I was going to get taken by the, by my old, my old friend, he was by that time. I was going to get taken over back to Alpen Aerodrome and handed over in to official German custody. So I was lucky really in because I’ve heard of people since the war. People who’d been handed over to the police, the ordinary civilian police who usually worked hand in glove with the Gestapo. I got, I was going to be handed over to the Service. And not just army but my own type of Service — the Air Service, as well. So I struck it lucky. So when we got [pause]
[recording paused]
HW: Ok. So I walked with this, with this German guard I suppose. He was an old chap really. Like an English home guard. And he took me to Alpen, this German fighter aerodrome. I was taken into the officer’s mess there and was obviously a sort of a curio to them in there for them to see one of the individuals that they had been fighting against. They were interested in my flying clothing in particular. Particular flying boots. A lambswool flying, lined flying boots. And the, well all the flying equipment really. None of them could speak English and I couldn’t speak German but one of them could speak French. And I could. He asked me questions in French. I answered him in French and then he translated it into German for all his mates. So one of the questions he, he said. ‘How many times have you been over Germany?’ I said this was the eighth time. He said, ‘Only eight times?’ He said, ‘I have been over London sixty six times.’ Anyway, they gave me what meal they were having. It was only a sort of spaghetti bolognaise in fact. And then I got shunted off into where I was, the side room where I ate that and then taken down to a cellar and kept there all night with a German just outside the door, well a locked door, with a rifle. And yeah, that was next day I was taken by one of their, one of their police to the railway station and taken to down, down, down Germany to Frankfurt. We went to the Ruhr first. Went to Dusseldorf Railway Station where we had to change trains and, and then we went on down south to Frankfurt. And I was taken, handed over to the reception camp I suppose, well not a camp. It was a sort of a proper building. A reception centre where all crew, air crew went. Were taken for interrogation. Put in a single, taken up, put into a single cell with a little barred window high up and a wooden bunk. And that was it really. There was a blanket. A couple of blankets sort of thing. And my boots, shoes, boots, flying boots were taken away and put outside the door. I wasn’t allowed to keep those. I hadn’t anything else that was of any use. Oh they took my navigationers, navigator’s watch. And the next day I was taken up for interrogation. All aircrew were interrogated separately. Well, pilots, navigators and bomb aimers and radio operators. It’s not much good interrogating gunners because they didn’t know much. Navigators, he wanted, the officer interrogating me wanted to know what height we were flying, what bomb load did you have, what was your exact route into the target and so on and so on. And but there wasn’t much I could, well there wasn’t much I was prepared to. I said, ‘You know sir I’m only obliged to tell you my name, rank and, and’ —
Other: Number.
HW: Name, rank and [pause] Oh well never mind. I was only, with regards information I was only obliged to obey the Geneva Convention. He said, he says, ‘There’s one or two questions about you sergeant, he said, ‘You have been wondering about in Germany you say for six days.’ He said, ‘But we have no aeroplane that you flew in. What aeroplane? Where is your aeroplane that crashed? Where are the other?’ He said, ‘And you have no identity tag.’ He said. I said, ‘No. The string back home broke before I came out that last trip. I was going to put some fresh string on when I got back.’ He said, ‘No disk. No identification. You will not say what squadron you came from. You will not say what your target,’ he said, ‘That was the night of Duisburg raid.’ I said, ‘Well yes it was.’ So, so anyway, he, I got taken back to my cell again. The next day I was called for another. He gave me, he gave me another go and he said, ‘Yes sergeant,’ he said, ‘We have had another crew in from 51 Squadron and they say, they confirm that your aircraft did not come back from Duisburg.’ He said, ‘So I can see how why you cannot identify yourself,’ And he said he accepted the fact that I was telling him the truth. I told him as much as I was going to and he, and he said now about, ‘We have settled that. Now, about your route into the, what other targets have you attacked? What other targets has 51 Squadron?’ I thought well I’ve said quite enough now and I thought, ‘I can’t say any more sir.’ He thought ok. He gave up on that but it was a comfortable office he had with nicely carpeted. A big, big desk, smelling richly of cigar smoke and, oh well. Anyway, went down to this holding unit down at Oberursel where all prisoners are sent. All prisoners. Air Force prisoners went. And I went, I met there a chap called John Trumble who I did training with, navigator as well, training as South Africa and when he saw me he said, ‘Waggy,’ and we stayed together for all the rest of the time. Got sent over by train in cattle trucks. You know, forty men to a truck. That sort of a thing. Six horses or forty men. From there right over to the far side of Germany bordering Poland. Near the Polish border at, near Dresden err Chemnitz no. I’m not sure. Right over the very far corner, southwestern corner of Germany you might say, to a prison camp, Stalag Luft 7 at Bankau. B A N K A U. And this was for air force, Royal Air Force non-commissioned officers. I’d only been there three days, no, four days when, and it was quite established camp. They were the proper bunks and there wasn’t a lot of rubbish about. The food, the food was nicely organised and so on but then the Russians were moving close and the Germans said, ‘We’re going to move you out of here.’ So they marched us out one night. One night the, in fact Russian aircraft were bombing not very far away so we knew the Russians were getting close. But the Germans weren’t going to hand us over to the Russians. They were going to keep us because prisoners were good bargaining counters for them. They wanted to hang on to prisoners because they knew, really they knew how the war was going to finish. So we marched out. They’d given us a little time to get our few possessions together. Our few Red Cross items that we’d acquired. For instance a blanket and pyjamas and shaving kit and a few, a toothbrush and a few, a knife, fork and spoon. A few things like that. And off we went and oh it was hard marching. We used to march. They used to put us up in farmyards. In, in barns. In farmyards where you just lay on the ground in, or on straw if you were lucky. Feeding was by, they had a what sort of a thing, a boiler on wheels that they used to take used to drag round. It was, they used to do soup in it mainly. Cabbage soup or swede soup or something of that sort. Dreadful stuff. Used to issue a bit of bread each day and a bit of margarine. That’s about it I think. Oh a few potatoes. Yeah. Yeah. And so we walked through this bitter winter weather. We were stumbling along. Through thick snow quite often. One particular night there was a blizzard. You could rake your fingernails down your face and you wouldn’t feel anything. It was just numb. So anyway, this marching, well it wasn’t marching it was just staggering along really. And they used to put us up as I say in these barns and the next day we’d be off again. And this went on about six days through terrible winter weather. Until we came to a town called Goldberg where they put us on to, they got rail transport organised to take us to a camp called, to Stalag 3A called Luckenwalde. Near Berlin. Southwest of Berlin. And so we were, things took a turn for the better there. Mind this when we got to Luckenwalde it was an old established camp but proper brick built. It was built as a prison camp but it was, being a proper huts with wooden floors you didn’t have to sleep the earth floors or anything of that sort. And grossly overcrowded because there were other nationalities there. There were, there were Poles, there were Russians, there were Norwegians. Oh, there were all sorts there. And we, there was only room for us. The Germans put straw on the floor and wood. Wood straw. And we used to let, each person had a little area sort of as wide as he was and as long as he was and stretched out on the floor. The barrack blocks were each barrack block used to send up each day well twice, twice a day yeah to the cookhouse. And cookhouse well it was in the morning it was, there was nothing to eat. It was just water. Now, they, they brought they said the man in charge of each hut said, ‘How many men want their coffee made up as coffee, their tea made up as tea and how many want it left dry to smoke?’ [laughs] So through the rest of the day there was nothing to do really but lie on the floor. It was dirty. There was no, you had hang your blankets out on the wire, barbed wire each day to air to get the smell out of them. The wash place was dirty. Later in the day the main meal would consist of potatoes and soup again. A bit of bread. Sometimes a little bit of pate. But, but we made do with the Red Cross parcels. If we hadn’t had the Red Cross parcels I don’t know where we’d have been. The Geneva Convention says that the prisoners must be given the same rations as the home service back area troops. If the back area troops in Germany were living on what we got they must have been pretty hard up. Anyway, there was nothing to do all day. We used to go out, walk around the compound and well that was it. And oh we got the news read every day because, because our, our somebody had got and made a little radio set with bribing the German guards to bring in the odd valve and the battery. Bribing them with cigarettes. That was the general currency. Cigarettes out of Red Cross parcels. So they used to pick up the man who had this little radio set used to pick up the BBC news every day and come around to the huts and read it out loud to each one. So we knew what was happening. That was one thing to look forward to. Otherwise just snooze, slept, talked. There was nothing else to do until the Russians got close and we, the Germans were talking about moving us to some other place to, so they could keep their control of prisoners. But they never, they never made that. The Russians arrived one day and Russian tanks were knocking down the barbed wire. And we were, we were, or our senior British officer said that we were to stay put. We weren’t to go out roaming around the country. We were to stay put because things would get disorganised. Anyway, he said there’s safety in numbers. So we stayed there and after a time the Russians provided us with food of a sort but nothing much. But anyway when we had stayed there I was with this John Trumble. By this time firm friends with him. And we, I said to him, ‘Look John, these Russians aren’t going to let us go. They’ve held on to us. There’s no reason why we can’t go, link up, is there? They’ve linked up with the British. There’s no reason why we can’t go.’ I said, ‘I don’t like the look of it John.’ He said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘Waggy,’ he said, ‘Let’s go.’ So we put the news around amongst sort of a couple of dozen of us around about. ‘Yes. Ok mate. Ok. We got the message. We see what you mean. Yeah. We’re coming with you.’ So we slipped out against the orders of the senior British officer and after we’d walked about four miles or so I suppose we saw a convoy of lorries coming towards us. British lorries. So one of them stopped. We got aboard. He said, ‘I’ll take you lads back,’ he said, ‘The other lorries are going down to the camp to collect the rest of the lads.’ So we got into this lorry and went back. Crossed the River Elbe into British held territory and we were free. So, but those that stayed, those lorries that went to collect the rest of the RAF prisoners, the Russians wouldn’t let them go and they never did. They were never heard of again. I think the Russians thought hello, navigators, engineer, flight engineers, pilots if we got some, a bit top up here we’ll keep them. It’s all, it’s all in it’s all in there. So we stayed at this British Air Force aerodrome. Shönebeck it was called. And after two days the Dakotas came and picked us up, took us back to Brussels. There we were handed over to the, oh they were American Dakotas by the way. Taken back to Brussels. We were handed over and British Dakotas came and took us back to England. We landed at Wing near Aylesbury and we were back. Welcomed back into, into Air Force, Air Force ways again. Given uniforms and sent on leave and so on. So that was that. So that’s Air Force career pretty well finished. We used to get called back now and again for just a couple of weeks. I went back to one, what’s one down there [pause] near Stamford? What’s the?
Other: Wittering? Wyton? Wittering?
HW: Yeah. Went down to Wittering. Yes. And they called us back. Not that they wanted us back but they just wanted to let us know that they, we were still under their control. So after those stages the war finished of course and I went back to University and I’d done two years at University before being called up. So I went back in the January and did two terms to get back into the way of things. Then I had two more years to do my degree. And then I had a year to do for a diploma in education because I was going to be a teacher, you see. So, so and that all went through satisfactorily. The University were very good. The Air Force was very generous. They paid my University fees. All that sort of thing. And it all went nicely. I got a job in, after my teaching training was and so forth I got a job in an independent school. St Johns School in Leatherhead which was a minor public school, teaching French and Latin. Those were my two degree subjects. And I was in charge of rugby there which, and had a jolly good time there in fact. The head master was a very liberal minded man. Prefects were allowed to smoke in their studies. They, they were allowed to have, to brew coffee and to so on in their studies. And they had radio sets in their studies. He treated, he treated them as gentlemen and the one thing that annoyed him more than anything else was if a boy could be accused of ungentlemanly behaviour. Anything else he’d accept. But ungentlemanly behaviour oh. But as I say liberal minded you know. I said to him once about, we used to the crew rugby team used to some of us used to get together now and again. Talk over next Saturdays run and thinking about the captain I said, ‘Would it be alright, sir if I took Warrington down in to, down to the Globe down in Leatherhead. We’ll have a dinner and a couple of pints. A couple of pints.’ He said, ‘Yes. Yes, that would be alright Mr Wagner. Don’t bring him back completely drunk will you?’ So they were happy times. But I moved from there eventually after four years because I wanted to get back into the state system. I was also paying in to the state retirement. The pension system. So I applied for a job in the, at a Grammar. Dear me. Someone gave me a hollow tooth.
[pause]
HW: Yes. A Grammar School near Reading and where I was second in command of the French Department and I taught Latin as well. Taught French and Latin and took a great interest in their rugby and joined Marlow Rugby Club which played all. All my remaining rugby was played at Marlow Rugby Club. They made me an honorary life member for the rest of my days for services to the club. So well, anyway I’d be in this Grammar School I taught at in Reading. I was standing at the window of my classroom one day looking out over the playing fields and it was raining. It had been raining for quite a few days. I thought in another twenty years I’m going to be standing at the same window at this same blasted rain. I’ve got to have a complete change. So I looked in the “Times Education Supplement” for postings abroad. I was married by this time by the way. Yeah. And we were buying our own house. So I thought do a complete change and found one advertised in Kenya. So, for French and Latin. I thought, well there you go. I thought well they were the wrong sort to be learning Latin for, but anyway [laughs] Because at the station at the Delamere High School there were a third Africans, a third Asians and a third Europeans so there was a good mix. And of course they all had to pay. There was no such thing as free schooling out there. They all had to pay school fees so parents made sure that they didn’t waste their, waste their time in school. You got a child a bad report, a word to their parents and that soon brought about a change. We had a daughter by this time. Helen. She went to Kenya High School which was a girl’s boarding school and she only came home once every other weekend. They were allowed home. Otherwise apart from holidays that was the only time we saw her. Phillip was five years old went to, went to Nairobi Cathedral School which was a sort of an infant school you might say. He wasn’t five years old yet. So, but the wife of the canon at the Nairobi Cathedral, she taught. She ran the little school that they had. As an aside, it’s difficult to know, I don’t want to waste your time on this really, but it was run on traditional lines. She was there to teach. You were there to get taught and you were going to get taught. In the old traditional way. No play way. Anyway, it came around to the time of the Christmas pantomime. Traditional. And the usual Mary in the manger and all the, so Phillip was selected as Joseph. Right. So parents were invited of course into this performance and Joan and I were sitting there knowing that Phillip was a good big part and on he came. On to the stage with, with the usual sort of dishcloth around his head and a nightdress, a white nightdress on. All that sort of thing. And the head mistress had said, told the children, ‘We’ll try a new way this year. We’re not going to have the usual talk. You’ve got to do it like it happens at your house. Like when your mummy — when your daddy comes home what does your mummy say to him? And what does he say to her. And you’ve got to carry on like that.’ So Phillip arrives on. Mary’s there holding a big, a big doll and Phillip says, Mary says, ‘Welcome home Jesus. Nice to see you again.’ And Jesus says, Jesus says, ‘Oh yes, I’m glad to be home again Mary.’ And how’s this no, I’m getting it wrong aren’t I? Joseph. And how’s, Joseph says, ‘How’s little Phillip?’ I’m making a pigs ear of this. ‘How’s little Jesus been?’ And Mary says, ‘He hasn’t been a good boy at all. Yeah. In fact he’s been a right little bugger all day.’ And I can imagine Mary’s face. She’s told them to say things that happen just at home. And all the parents are sitting there [ laughs ] . Anyway, I became deputy head at this Queen’s Girl’s School. The head, when the head mistress was on leave I was a head teacher, principal for a whole term and then it got taken over. The Africans took it back they, we knew they were going to take it back. They took it back. Put their own staff in. Most of the Europeans had gone by then. From the whole country in fact. And so it was time for us to go and we went back to our, the house that we had started buying in Reading and settled down there and things went on from there quite normally. I joined, went back to Marlow Rugby Club. I took up, oh no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Went back to my old job that I had before and the headmaster said, ‘Yes. We’ll take you back Mr Wagner but would you guarantee to stay for two years? I don’t want somebody coming in and then he’ll settle down for a term and then he’ll start looking for a head of department’s job.’ ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘I’ll stay for two years.’ And after two years, when the two years were nearly up I got this job at the Queen’s Girl’s School in Wisbech. Teaching just, of course they don’t do Latin there. And carried on there. I worked there for, until I did nine years there. And when I was eighty, eighty one yeah [pause] Eighty one? Fifty eight. It was 1981 [laughs] when I was fifty eight. My wife had died. Helen had married and left home. Phillip was still at school on, doing A levels. And the house was all paid for and I thought well it was a job I didn’t really like. I was more of a warder than a teacher I thought well if I take it easy I can make do on my on the what I’ve got saved up and the teacher’s pension until I get the old age pension. So it worked. And I took up, I played golf a lot with Steven’s father. With one of the teachers who was at the Queen’s Girl’s School. Norman Davis. Used to go on holiday with them. I took up, I was down on Dartmoor. I used to do a lot of long distance walking on Dartmoor. And down there once I saw a chap, a couple of chaps driving up in a Land Rover and they, I was sitting in my car at the time and they took down from the roof a hang glider, unfurled it, rigged it, took it up one of the tors and I watched them. One of them launched off. I thought, ‘Cor. I’ll have a go at that.’ So when I got back, back home again I got a look, searched around and found that over near [pause] not Thetford. It was near Downham Market there’s a hang gliding school and I thought well, so I went over and enquired and they said, ‘Well yes. If you want to.’ It was a school not a club. You see it was a training school. So I went over there and did my first year I got an elementary certificate. The second year I got club pilot’s certificate so I could join, I was regarded as being a fully trained hang glider and I could fly. I could join a club and fly hang gliders. Which I did and I carried on. I can go back to the same place. They were quite happy for me to go back and fly their gliders but I wasn’t on any training course because I’d, so they thought, knew it all. So I did a lot of hang gliding there. They’re plenty of pictures in there. It was good. And then Phillip who had taken his own private pilot’s licence in powered aircraft and powered gliders and ordinary gliders. He came over. I said I’ll stay, he said, ‘Can I go on one of these hand glider courses if I don’t have a birthday present?’ I said, ‘Never mind about that Phillip I’ll come with you and pay for it.’ And so he got his own hang glider club pilot’s certificate as well. And there we are. That takes me up to the present. Oh went I over when they did the bungee jumping. Yeah. That was one thing I’d always wanted to do. And the, you know when I put the, I signed the you know the.
JH: That happened when you were, when you were ninety. Was that when you were ninety?
HW: Yes. That’s right. Signed the, what is it, what is the permit to fly?
Other: Disclaimer. Disclaimer form.
HW: Just the word.
JH: Disclaimer.
Other: Yeah.
JH: Disclaimer form.
Other: Yeah. It admonishes them from any responsibility.
HW: Yeah. It’s just word has gone. The word when you sign something saying it’s all —
JH: The waiver. Waiver.
HW: Yeah. Disclaimer.
Other: That’s the word.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
HW: Yeah so and that’s taken me out of the thing. I’ve given up the long distance walking because I get back pain. And that’s why Steven is doing so much work in the garden. But up to that everything’s going nicely and I’ve been extraordinarily lucky with health.
JH: Ok. Well, thank you Henry for your time to record this interview today. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Henry Wolfe Wagner. One
Creator
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Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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03:13:51 Audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWagnerHW160504, PWagnerHW1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Henry Wolfe Wagner was born in Ireland. The family moved to England when he was young and settled near Reading. Henry attended Reading University for two years joining the University Air Squadron. He then volunteered for the RAF and began training as a pilot. He went to South Africa for his training. He was put forward to begin training as a navigator when his pilot training was interrupted. After returning to Great Britain and completing his training he was posted to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. On their eighth operation his crew were attacked by a night fighter over Duisberg. Henry managed to walk for several days before he was caught and became a prisoner of war. He was sent to Stalag Luft 7 at Bankau before undertaking the Long March.
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Poland
South Africa
Germany--Duisburg
England--Yorkshire
Poland--Tychowo
Alps
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Requires
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Henry was born in Ireland and held Irish citizenship. He talks of his family and schooling, but the Second World War had begun before he began attending Reading University in 1940. He joined the University Air Squadron which lead to him choosing the RAF and aircrew training when ‘called up.’ Sent of South Africa to begin learning to become a pilot Henry found himself transferred to the navigator training path when he failed to become a pilot. He gained his Navigator’s brevet and the rank of Sergeant on his graduation.
Henry returned to the UK and was posted to RAF West Freugh, Scotland, then RAF Abingdon to learn about the differences in flying in European weather. He crewed up at Abingdon before moving to the HCU RAF Stanton Harcourt. On being posted to 4 Group HCU RAF Marston Moor he learnt that he would be flying Halifax aircraft and the final member of his crew joined them. Here they learnt about the Gee navigation system. Once the left this base, they were classed as an operational aircrew.
Henry’s crew was posted to RAF Snaith near Doncaster. He explains how it was a constant race to keep ahead technologically ahead of the German. Henry tells of the operations he went on to Julich, Munster, and six in the Ruhr area (Duisburg etc.). He details the types of target, and the kinds of defences the targets have.
After talking of the losses sustained by Bomber Command during the Second World War, Henry describes his final flight during which the aircraft bombed the target successfully but on it’s return journey was shot down. Henry was the only member of the crew to successfully bail out. He describes the small survival kit that the RAF had issued him with and his evasion the any Germans until he was caught and initially placed in the Luftwaffe’s care. He was sent via Frankfurt to Stalag Luft 7 which was for RAF NCOs at Bankau. After the Russian front drew near to the camp, the POWs were sent to the already overcrowded prison camp of Stalag 3A Luckenwalde. The prisoners were only able to take a few items from Red Cross parcels like blankets, shaving kits, toothbrushes, etc. While they were marching in the bitter winter 1944/45, they often had to stay in farm building, were mainly given soup to eat.
Henry describes life in Stalag 3A, and how he came to be liberated. He was flown to RAF Wing and returned to Reading University to complete his education and become a teacher.
Henry details his post-war life in teaching and with his family.
Claire Campbell
51 Squadron
aircrew
crewing up
Dulag Luft
evading
fear
Gee
H2S
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
navigator
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Snaith
RAF West Freugh
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
the long march
Tiger Moth
training
Whitley
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/869/11110/AHeslamJ160519.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Heslam, Johanna
Johanna Huiberdina Heslam
J H Heslam
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Joanna Heslam (b.1936). She was in the Netherlands during the war and experienced the Hongerwinter.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Heslam, J
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH1: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Johanna Heslam today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mrs Heslam’s home and it is the 19th of May 2016. Thank you, Johanna for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is David Heslam. Johanna’s husband. Johanna, could you tell me when and where you were born and your early years?
JH2: I was born in 1936 in a place called Boskoop. My father came from Boskoop. Now, when I was three years old my father and mother and three children moved to Scheveningen which is the seaside part of the Hague. My mother came from Scheveningen. We lived there and in, when I was three we moved there. Yes. In 1940 the war started. We were told we weren’t really welcome where we lived because that whole area of Scheveningen was going to be defence area. They were frightened that the British would land on the beach so they put tram rails up on the beach to stop aeroplanes from landing and they said, ‘It’s going to be defence area. Soon you will have to move.’ Well, we lived there for about a year and we actually did. We were told we had to go. So my father, mother with then four children moved to the Hague where we found a place to live. And we lived there for about a year. Then we were told, ‘Actually this area is all going to be demolished because we are going to build a tank trap.’ So please move. So there again my father, mother with five children by that time moved out of the Hague to a place outside Leiden. The town of Leiden. There’s a place called Leiderdorp. We were told we could live there in a very big manse. There was a minister living in the manse with five children. We had five children. My brother [unclear] was the oldest of ten then. So we had a busy busy household there but everything worked well. But the minister’s wife became ill and had to go into hospital for an operation. My father would have felt very that we may have become a burden you see. So we searched for a place. And my father found a place next to a farm outside Leiderdorp. A place called Zoeterwoude. And that’s where we lived the rest of the war. And that’s where we experienced all sorts of things. The Hongerwinter and the Liberation. Well, we had to walk to school. That took about half an hour. And when we arrived at school we, we were told to [pause] what to do when the sirens went. Sirens went off at times when there was danger in the sky. So a siren meant, that meant we had to lay underneath our desk at school. Flat on the ground. When the second siren came we had to run and lay under the cycle sheds outside in the playground and wait till the all clear was given and we could go back to our desks. Well, as things became very scarce, more and more of things. We were deprived of all sorts of things. There was no paper. No pencils. In the end we went back to slate and slate pencils. So, that’s how I did my sums in the end. With a slate pencil on the slate. We had a very scary time at times walking to school and there were bombardments. We had to, we knew we had to lay flat. Nobody knew when the war was going to end so you know you think is it tomorrow? Is it next year? Life, life goes on. We — food became short, clothing short, shoes short. You see, my brother and I were the two eldest of five. We were just thirteen months between us. When we grew out of things well the younger ones could have it. There was nothing for us. So my mother managed to sew bits out of old coats. An old coat of hers. She made jackets for us. And then she said, ‘Well, no more shoes for you. I’ve got a pair of shoes from before the war. You can have one shoe. You can have the other.’ Well, we tried that for a bit and we would rather go on our bare feet. So all, all summer we walked on our bare feet to school and back again. And, well you just accept it and everybody else did it. And then in the, yeah life became more and more frightening and we were deprived of, of food. We couldn’t get food. My father got up at 4 o’clock in the morning and went past, drove past farmers and begged for milk. And he had to be very early. Before the milk churns were being closed. So, and that’s how we managed to keep alive. By my father begging for milk and he brought milk home nearly every day for us. Then there hardly was any milk anymore because the farmers were getting short because the soldiers needed, the German soldiers needed the milk. So it was very hard to get anything. Then somebody said, ‘Oh, well, every — we’ll take a child from each family and they can come to this big building here.’ It was a big attic over a pottery shop. ‘All children of the neighbourhood that are bad off can come here. One of the family.’ So I was picked. I could go there for soup. Once a week I could go there for soup. Well, my mother said, ‘What did you get?’ I said, ‘Well, it was just like water with leaves floating in it.’ [laughs] I remember that. Then the school closed because the soldiers needed to use the school as a building. So we couldn’t go to school anymore. So we stayed at home. And things deteriorated. My mother told us to lick our plates which we weren’t allowed before. But then we had to lick our plates. Things got worse and worse. We had to eat tulip bulbs. Then sugar beet. My mother was, could make something out of sugar beets. She made some syrup out of it and little pancakes out of it. And, well, no more sugar beet available. In the end things were so bad that, well it was so bad because the winter came and there was no food at all and sometimes there was no water and we had to melt the snow to get water. It wasn’t all the time but at times there was no water. And then we had to gather buckets and buckets of snow and then that was melted to water. Then my two cousins came to stay with us. They were older ones and the idea was that they had to go to Germany to work in factories but they wanted to escape. So they came to stay with us. And my father found a place for them to work on the farm and he dressed them up as old men and they had to learn how to walk as old men. And my father found a friendly farmer where they could work so they didn’t have to be transported to Germany and work in factories. My father, mother’s fear always that my father would be carted off to Germany because all the German young men were in the army. They had nobody to make ammunition in the factories you see. And so my father said, ‘I’m going to make a shelter.’ And he dug in the bedroom and in the corridor a passage underneath the floorboards where he could crawl into. It was very difficult for him to do because he didn’t want it to happen when the children were awake because they would you know perhaps query what was happening. So he hid there at times when there were times that they just gathered all the men that were quite young enough to go and work in German’s factory. So, we had some scary times when the house was surrounded by soldiers trying to find my father who had disappeared. My [pause] the worst time was 1944, 1945 and there was literally nothing to eat and it was called, it was called the Hongerwinter. In the towns people died by the dozen. Twenty thousand people died in Rotterdam, the Hague and all the big cities but because we were in the country we always had a bit of a chance to find food somewhere. But it was so bad that my father even got ill while he was always the strong one. And he was in bed in April, May ’45 when my mother told, had just told us, ‘Well, stay in bed as long as you can in the morning because then you don’t waste any energy.’ And then suddenly she shouted, ‘Come. Come and have a look. Come and have a look.’ And we, ‘What look for?’ She says, ‘Aeroplanes. Well, we weren’t allowed to look at aeroplanes. We had to lay flat always. But she said, ‘Come and have a look.’ And then she made us go into, into the garden and we saw aeroplanes that were dropping food. She said, ‘They’re dropping food.’ They were flying very very low and we saw the food coming down. And that was brilliant. Now, we were given these biscuits from England. A like, bit like rich tea biscuits or Marie biscuits. Those sort of things. I remember. And they came in big silver coloured tins. This shape. And thereafter these were tins were used later on to make, boys made drums out of it. Anyway, we were saved just in time by the RAF that flew low and saved our lives. My father was given the first slice of bread in the neighbourhood because he was, certain people in certain areas were given the first slice because he was ill. But he picked up soon enough when food came in abundance. Yeah. Well, there are so many stories to tell. We were given chocolate. Great big lumps of chocolate they were. And we didn’t know what it was but anyway we could eat it. And then the tanks arrived with Canadian and British soldiers and everybody was terribly excited because the war was over they said. May ’45. The end of the war. So that was a big relief. And yeah, I was, I was allowed to come to a big meeting hall in the, in the town of Leiden and people were singing. Just folk songs because they were so happy we were liberated. And people were, men and women were just dancing about singing. They were so happy. And there were just tears coming down their eyes. Yeah. And flags flying everywhere. And the orange. The banners of the House of Orange. Our royal family. And after a few weeks I was given my first pair of shoes which was very nice. And I was so pleased with them I took them to bed with me and cuddled them and kissed them. And then after a few weeks of walking on my shoes I could pull the skin at the bottom of my feet off like a sheet because I think the bottom of my feet had become really tough. The skin had toughened up because of walking on bare feet. My father had made us some emergency shoes by having bits of wood and then he nailed some straps on it. So a bit like sandals. We could walk on those. Have I got any more? Stop.
[recording paused]
JH2: Well, what was very awkward was that there were Nazi sympathisers here, there and everywhere. And actually the farmer who we lived next door to had four girls and two of those girls were about the same age as my brother and sister and I. And we used to go to school together but we were told never to open our mouths because that’s especially why we weren’t told anything if they could help it. There was so many. And we didn’t know about the food coming but my parents knew because there was a whole underground world. And they were called Underground world. And you weren’t allowed to have a radio but there were people who had a primitive sort of radio rigged up in their attics and listened to the BBC. And they knew what was coming. And they knew what was, how the war was getting on. They even, some of them even printed some leaflets and distributed them which was very very dangerous. And, well we weren’t allowed to mention the name Hitler. Of course they did at school. The schoolboys. And always be hush hush and not to talk. Especially not to our neighbour friends. Which was very awkward when you’re children. But my parents didn’t tell us much so we didn’t know much but we, the little bit we knew [laughs] you mustn’t talk about.
JH1: What happened —
JH2: Yeah.
JH1: When you went to church?
JH2: Sorry?
JH1: When you got to church?
JH2: Oh yeah. That was not towards the end of the war but kind of in the middle of the war. When we went to church we brought a blanket with us. And when you arrived at church you were given a little wooden box with holes in. And in the entrance of the church was a great big stove burning. The hot coals in. And the warden picked with some iron tongs a piece of coal and put it in a little earthenware dish. That little earthenware dish was put in this wooden box. I’ve got one somewhere. And of course there was a hole in the front. Put it in there. Then you carried that wooden thing to your seat where you were going to sit. Put your feet on it so the heat came through those holes. Put your blanket over the top and that’s how you kept warm. The rest was freezing cold but somehow [laughs] So, I don’t know whether other public meetings were like that as well but yeah. And that’s — my son gave me a painting of [unclear] I mean a copy of a painting of a girl sitting. And it’s hanging up there near the front door. And there’s a girl sitting there knitting and she’s got her feet up on one of these things. So it was in the, even in houses even before my time they were used to keep warm. A little earthenware pot. Glowing coals in it and then in a wooden box with holes and that’s how you kept warm. Yeah [pause] But the hunger was, was bad. It was bad because even if you had food it was taken away. We had rabbits and goats at one time but they were just taken away. The Nazis took them away. The soldiers needed them, they said. So that that was really bad. But fear was the worst thing because nobody had food. Perhaps the Nazis sympathisers had but we never knew. We kept away from them you see. But we didn’t smell food. Didn’t see food. But the fear stays with you when the hunger is stilled.
JH1: You knew who the sympathisers were then? Was it fairly —
JH2: Well, we happened to know that we had to keep very quiet. That big farmer next door to us. It wasn’t right next door but it was a field. Yeah. So, yeah, my parents knew quite a few. Yeah. And the funny thing is after the, my father worked in the church and he cycled from Zoeterwoude where we lived during the war to Scheveningen where his job still was open. Well, when I say Scheveningen his congregation was dispersed outside Scheveningen. Several places. Because they were cleared out of Scheveningen as well. So we were on the border of Scheveningen and here and there he visited these people because, well they needed comfort when somebody had been bereaved and any life went on. So he visited them and talked to them. And actually at one time at the beginning when we first lived there he managed to find a very kind farmer who gave us a ship full of sugar beet. And he rode it with a friend to the Hague’s Scheveningen. Well, the border of Scheveningen where people were very hungry. But later on my father still cycled everywhere and his bicycle he didn’t have tyres. He had rubber strips. There were no tyres any more for sale. So he had cycled on an empty stomach quite often on a very uncomfortable bike and visited people. But after the war he became chaplain to the prison in, when we moved back to Scheveningen. He became chaplain to the prison. And all the people he feared so much during the war in that prison was quite funny. Well funny if you think it.
JH1: Yeah.
JH2: Yeah. He thought — I feel quite relaxed now with them all behind bars. Yeah. They had a hard time after the war. And also girls that went off with the soldiers they were treated quite badly after the war. They shaved their hair off and then they painted the swastikas on their head. Yeah. That was naughty. That was forbidden afterwards but the reaction was so intense. People who sympathised with the enemy was bad. Yeah. That finished. David what else can I tell about?
[recording paused]
Well, when we lived in the country we had quite a big garden at the back of our house. And then there was a big field and then you could see a railway line and occasionally a train came across. Well, that railway line became very important because the British thought, well they knew that the Germans would bring ammunition by train from Germany. So, at night the British came and bombed that railway line. And so we weren’t only frightened in the daytime of bombings. And at night the railway line was bombed there and it was quite close to us. And in the morning we could see the railway line being up and downish instead of a straight line. It was really funny what had happened there but to our eyes it looked as though there was a kind of a hill on the railway line. So, it was bombing in the daytime and bombing at night and a really scary life. Well, in ’44, at autumn ’44 people who secretly listened to the secret receivers, you could hardly call them radios but they were kind of primitive radios, in the attics they listened. These people listened to the BBC. Heard that part of France was liberated, Belgium liberated and the southern Netherlands was. Oh liberated. Oh the enemy is going. He’s leaving. So, when I came out of school that time with a group of youngsters we saw people’s front doors open. Orange. Red, white and blue flags. All, where they got all the things from I don’t know but suddenly people had opened their hidden, secretly hidden stores of material that was not allowed by the Germans. They were, it was on display and people were so happy. The war. And I remember my mother came running. She had heard via a secret radio that we weren’t free. That actually the tanks were on their way. And my mother said, I remember my mother, like a mad woman said, ‘Away. Away. Orange away. Flags away. Away. Away. The Germans. The tanks are rolling in.’ People quickly put things away. They ran indoors, shut their doors again. There was one man not so far from us who had an enormous post. A pole in his garden. Enormous flagpole and he climbed. He was climbing up it to take the flag away and he was shot. Father of three boys. It was terribly upsetting. Terribly upsetting. So the war wasn’t finished. And that’s when the cold winter started. After this autumn. That’s when our worst winter when so many people died. You called that, they that we thought we were free and we weren’t free dolle Dinsdag which means, “Mad Tuesday” because everybody went mad. Mad with happiness and then mad with not happiness. Sadness. And lots of people being shot as well for hanging out the decorations. Yeah. That’s it.
JH1: And what, what happened to you after the war?
JH2: Sorry?
JH1: What happened to you after the war? How did your life move on?
JH2: After. After the war we gradually, yeah we gradually packed up our belongings and we went back to Scheveningen where my father was still supposed to be working. And all during the war whenever he could he’d cycle to Scheveningen or nearby where members of his congregation lived and he was telling once this story. He said once there was a funeral of a man expected but my father was waiting and nobody arrived. And he was just about to go back on his bike and go home when he saw a horse and cart. And on the cart was a coffin. And over the coffin was a blanket draped over the coffin. And he thought well that’s strange there’s nobody there. Only the coffin and the person who drives the cart. And then he saw that the blanket was lifted and a little old lady climbed down and she says, ‘That’s the only way I could be certain I’d be there with my husband to bury him.’ And my father was very touched by her braveness and he led the funeral and she shed some tears but she said, ‘I’m alright. I can walk back again. I’m not in a hurry now.’ And so she walked back home again on her own. Yeah. That was a touching time. Yeah. He often had to have, in one day six people had died either from starvation or been shot or been hit by bombs or whatever. He had a busy time at times. That’s it.
[recording paused]
JH2: Oh, well after the war we went back to Scheveningen because that’s where my father worked. We couldn’t go to the same house. We went to a house nearer to the Hague to live in a house nearer the Hague and it was in an area where the quite nearby was an area with big villas. And these villas had been boarded up during the war because people had fled. But they had been broken into by the inhabitants that were left here, there and everywhere. Even people who came out of the Hague to just to get wood. They needed wood to keep warm. To also to cook their meals because during the war we didn’t have a cooker. We just cooked on the little stove that gave you heat. And that’s where you put a big pan on to cook whatever you’d got and what you hadn’t got. Anyway, these houses were stripped of panelling, stripped of staircases, stripped of doors. Anything wood had been taken away and been burned by people from the Hague. And we had a whale of a time going there. Going in these gardens and pretend that we were thieves and robbers and made dens like children like to do. And there would be folks around in those houses. That was, that first summer was really nice. And then people started coming back, ‘This is my property,’ so they put wire around it. We couldn’t go there anymore but, and then we then school started again in September. I suppose. September time. Yes. And then we had to go back in the routine and different school and get used to sitting down at a desk again and learning to read and write and arithmetic and history. But we didn’t have a very good name. We were all branded as difficult children. We were war children. Nearly all the children in the class were difficult, and never, oh terrible children, ‘Oh these war children. One after the other causes problems for the school.’ But not just our family. It was everywhere else. The families were, couldn’t concentrate. The children couldn’t concentrate very well. They’d experienced such horrible things. And yeah, it’s not often that a child sees a dead soldier floating in the river. Well, we saw that because he must have been killed and then thrown in the river. And yeah. You go and look at him because the other children are, ‘Oh you have to go and have a look.’ Of course you do. Although you don’t want to see it but you do see it. And all sorts of things like that happened. Yeah. And my father went back to his job working for people who were coming back to Scheveningen and built up the congregation and built up the houses again. And then he still worked as a chaplain part time in the, in the prison. And there he met people who he’d feared during the war but now were behind bars and he felt quite relaxed for a change. And he, he made one or two good friends there actually. There was this painter who painted pictures for the Germans and he was put behind bars but not very long. I think it was nine months. Perhaps to a year. And his wife had sung for the Germans. Well, they needed money so they they were punished for it but not very long. But some people were assassinated. Some people were taken. Were put in prison a bit longer because they caused [pause] yeah, their fellow countrymen to be betrayed. And some were put in prison for about fifteen years because they were the cause of some of their countrymen being shot dead. And some people were hiding people. That was so incredibly difficult during the war for people who were hiding somebody. They, quite few people lived as nervous wrecks because they knew if they were found out the whole family would be in for it. Well, my parents only hid my two cousins but that was only for a weekend. They dressed them up as old men and sent them off to a farm. But if they’d been found out they would have been shot or something would have happened to them. But there were people who hid Jewish people and they, and of course then people needed coupons. Food coupons. So there were some very brave people who then raided at night the offices where they distributed coupons so that they could feed the Jewish people who were hiding in all sorts of places with extra coupons. Oh dear. But that was before the Hongerwinter. ’45. ’44-’45 — that winter we called Hongerwinter. And that is set apart in my mind as the worst time of the war. That’s when we were starving. My mother. The last thing I remember she made well, she tried to make some porridge out of chaff. Now, chaff is the husk of grain and it’s really [pause] And all I remember of it, I can’t remember what it tasted like, I only remember my sister Lydia cried, she said ‘I cannot swallow it. I cannot swallow it.’ And mother said, ‘Well, it’s the only thing I’ve got.’ I don’t know if it did us any good. I suppose there may have been some goodness in it. I don’t know. Yeah. That’s it.
[recording paused]
JH1: And also, do you feel that you’ve got any lasting effects from the war?
JH2: It’s difficult to, to think that way but I’m sure it has had an effect on me. For example I’m always frightened. Especially in the wintertime. In the dark. And when I’m at home I always close the curtains as soon as it is dark because I keep thinking somebody is going to shoot me or some bomb is going to explode. Yeah. And I am frightened. But it’s not that I lock myself up in the house. But I’d like to. But I can, I suppose I can cope with it. What else?
JH1: So you’re not really — you don’t like sudden, you know, movements or —
JH2: No. What happens to me and it’s not me really. It is a reflex. If suddenly something happens or if my husband suddenly stands in the room and I thought he was in the kitchen I suppose, I scream. Anybody who comes. The grandchildren are used to it and they know that scream doesn’t mean anything. I will let out a loud yell but I’ll always say, ‘It’s not me. It’s a reflex.’ So they’re happy then [laughs] Yeah. So, yes, the war has had an effect on me. And my brothers and sisters as well I’m sure. Just living in fear when you’re a child is not without the results in later life I suppose. Yeah.
JH1: And did you find that being deprived of the food all that time — ?
JH2: I’m very careful with food.
JH1: Right.
JH2: I don’t. I still like to lick my plate at times [laughs] We were so pleased when we were allowed to lick our plates. We weren’t allowed to do it before the war. Then after the war we were allowed to do it. And during the war we were allowed to do it and I still like to do it now [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah and the other thing. There are little things. Yeah, I don’t like waste. But perhaps that’s in my nature. Perhaps that’s a result of the war. You can’t always tell of course. Have you noticed anything else David?
DH: Well, you always empty your plate. Whatever’s on it. It all goes.
JH2: It all goes. Yeah. I never leave anything. I think that’s terrible if you leave something. Yeah. Well, there we are. It is funny I can eat almost anything. I’m not fussy about what I eat. Whether that’s the result of you know eat when you can. Maybe. Yeah. No, no problem. Eat anything. But when I say eat anything hot spicy Indian stuff I can’t cope with very well. But normally speaking. Normal European food I can cope with. Yeah. Yeah. [pause] Yeah. That’s it.
JH1: Well, thank you Johanna for allowing me to record this interview today. Thank you very much.
JH2: It’s a pleasure.
JH1: Thank you.
JH2: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Johanna Heslam
Creator
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Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHeslamJ160519, PHeslamJ1601
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Pending review
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00:35:22 audio recording
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Netherlands
Netherlands--Leiden
Netherlands--Zoeterwoude
Netherlands--Hague
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Johanna Heslam was a young child when Holland was occupied. The family had to move on several occasions because their area was being used for military purposes. Johanna experienced increasing loss as shortages began of clothing and then food. Even school materials became scarce until finally her school was taken over for military purposes. Two older cousins were hidden by the family who disguised them as old men and also found them a work placement so they would not have to go to Germany for forced labour. To ensure he was also safe from deportation Johanna’s father created a hiding place in the house. One day Johanna’s mother shouted for the children to watch as the low-flying Lancasters drop food during Operation Manna. On another occasion her neighbours mistakenly thought that liberation had come when Johanna describes her mother shouting warnings that soldiers were coming. One man was shot when he tried to retrieve a flag from his garden.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
fear
home front
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/856/11098/PHarbuttLN1801.1.jpg
fba28ca5ac9f92459c6855059c21f6a0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/856/11098/AHarbuttLN180514.2.mp3
205fec38ff652d170f3c6400f23fa90f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harbutt, Laurence
Laurence Norton Harbutt
L N Harbutt
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Laurence Norton Harbutt (b. 1921). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 77, 102 and 39 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-05-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harbutt, LN
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Laurie Harbutt today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Mr Harbutt’s home and it is the 14th of May 2018. Thank you, Laurie for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is David. Now, Laurie, can you tell me your date of birth and where you were born and something of your family and early years?
LH: Yeah. I was born on the 12th of August 1921. I went to Raynham School in Edmonton. When I was eleven I passed the eleven plus and I went to the Grammar School at, called the Latymer in Edmonton. I was there until 19 — when did the war start?
JH: ’39, wasn’t it?
LH: Well, when the war started I went to the recruiting office at Eltham to join up, thinking I would go in the Navy. Unfortunately, being a Civil Servant I was unable to join the Navy so the recruiting officer offered me, ‘Or you can go in the Air Force if you wish.’ And he said, ‘Exactly what do you do?’ I said, ‘I’m a wireless operator telegraphist.’ ‘Oh, that’s just what we want.’ So from there on I was sent up to Morecambe to do foot training. Done several weeks there, and then I had an interview regarding going on aircrew. I said to them at the time, ‘What’s aircrew?’ Because at that time I’d failed to see many aircraft. They said, ‘Well, you’ve got fighters and bombers. Bombers obviously have more than one and you would become one of the crew.’ So that was what happened. I joined, joined 77 Squadron in Yorkshire which were Whitley bombers and we’d done, done all the raids of, leaflet raids in Europe, Germany, Italy. I’d done that for possibly about four or five months, then I was posted overseas. I joined 77 Squadron in Aden and the war escalated in Egypt, and we was all sent up in to Egypt which was the Middle East and I was stuck in the Western Desert for three and a half years. From there went into Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia. All those countries. I was there ‘til January 1945. When I returned to England I went to Number 13 MU which was at [pause] oh, where was it now? I forget. In actual fact I forget. I forget the name of it at the moment. Henlow. Henlow, was that. Yeah. I was Henlow until April ’45. I was, I left the Air Force in 1945. About April ’45, went home, and then shortly after I joined the Metropolitan Police. I was in the Metropolitan Police twenty five years. Coming out of there I became a publican and was a publican in the Pilot Public House, Greenwich, and I done seven years there. Having done seven years there I moved to Brandon here. Brandon and then Thetford. And I had a opportunity to join a security unit, Abbey Security and I was there for twenty years. I retired there when I was sixty three, and thinking that I’d, I’d done enough. So since sixty three I’ve enjoyed my full retirement and here I am.
JH: So did you do any other things through your retirement then? Did you —
LH: Pardon?
JH: In all those years since you’ve been retired have you been active in anything in particular? Have you followed any hobbies or —
LH: Well, I’m a keen fisherman. I like trout fishing, and shooting which I’ve got guns and things. Yeah. Oh, I like fishing but unfortunately through health now I’ve got rheumatism or whatever in my knees and I’m unable to do it. So walking is out of the question. So, unfortunately I’m a bit home bound.
JH: And going back to when you were in the war did you actually have any particular special mates that you remember in your crews? Or —
LH: Well, I had so many but they changed so quickly, you know.
JH: Right.
LH: It wasn’t a good business my business.
JH: No. No. No.
LH: No. No it wasn’t.
JH: So there wasn’t, there wasn’t anybody you kept in touch with.
LH: I was detached from the squadron in 1943 to a fighter squadron because I’d had an accident. I’d had an accident and hurt my knee and my hands and I couldn’t use my hand for signalling, so I went to this squadron. A fighter, it was a fighter bomber squadron. 94 Squadron. Sir Ian and Sir Alistair were two of the pilots that flew on there. Both got killed. And I was on that for about two years I suppose.
JH: Yes.
LH: I think they forgot about me and then suddenly they remembered and I joined 55 Squadron and was operating in Italy then. And that’s when I came home. Yeah.
JH: And you didn’t get shot down in any of that?
LH: Pardon?
JH: Were you shot down ever in any of your —
LH: Well, yeah. In Fort Cassino. We were bombing Fort Cassino about every half hour sort of thing and we got hit and I had to get out rather quickly at night. Not very good, not knowing how high you were or what. But the skipper said, ‘You stand more chance of getting out then you do with standing by.’ So I baled, out and no sooner had I pulled my cord I hit the deck. Of course, I hurt my knee very badly, and all of a sudden there was a load of foreigners around me and I thought they were Germans but they weren’t they were Poles. Fortunately for me.
JH: Yes.
LH: And then I was taken to hospital and had a few weeks in the hospital prior to coming home, you know.
JH: So, how long was it before you had to go back up flying again?
LH: I didn’t go flying any more after that.
JH: Oh. Not after that.
LH: That was the end of it.
JH: Right. Right.
LH: Yeah. My flying days were over because as I say radar had taken over and I was not, well wanted any longer, you know. I went to this gun turret maintenance unit and of course obviously I knew all about gun turrets. Gun turrets used to come there, stripped off, reassembled. They used to test them and then they used to go back to the squadrons, you know. That was the job I did there. You know, an important job, but I think I made more photo frames there than I did anything else.
JH: And what were the actual planes like that you were on? How did you, you know the, was it the Whitley was it you were on?
LH: The Whitley.
JH: And which other ones?
LH: The Whitley was, you had at that time the only heavy bombers you had was the Whitley and the Wellington. They were the only heavy bombers we had and they had a crew of five men. You know. They were the only ones. No, no others. All the others were medium bombers, you know. Nothing really. The Blenheim. All around here. There’s a Blenheim. That was 108 Squadron. That was the one. The Liberators. You know.
JH: So, what did you, what were you on after the Whitley? Which, what plane did you go to next?
LH: I was on Blenheims.
JH: The Blenheim.
LH: The Blenheims. Yeah. I’ve flown in Blenheims, Marauders, oh several actually but what were the others, one? Yeah. It’s funny how you, when you’re put to the test you start forgetting, you know. Well, its seventy years ago now.
JH: No. That’s fine.
LH: You can’t remember your shopping list then can you? But anyway, you know I had a good trip around and I’m thankful for whoever was responsible for my [laughs]
JH: Yeah.
LH: Safety to be here.
JH: Exactly. And did you get much leave? Were you sent back home when you went out? Very often?
LH: Oh yeah. When I got leave I had weeks and weeks of leave.
JH: Oh. Did you?
LH: Yeah.
JH: Oh.
LH: That was it. I got in the way I think then. Yeah. My wife was a WAAF but she came out the services.
JH: Right.
LH: When I retired, you know.
JH: Yes.
LH: And —
JH: Did you have family?
LH: Pardon?
JH: Did you have family?
LH: Oh yeah. I have three girls. One lives at Harlow. One lives in Holborn, London. One lives in Canterbury, Kent. The one in Canterbury, Kent comes and sees me quite regularly and the one in Harlow. Yeah. They’re quite good. Yeah. My girls. Three girls. I always wanted a boy but there we go. Oh yeah, I’ve got, my family is alright. Yeah.
JH: Do you have grandchildren? Or —
LH: Oh, I have grandchildren. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
LH: But again, they’re in New Zealand. Yeah. My oldest daughter’s son’s in New Zealand. He’s just come to see me last week or so. And then my second daughter, her daughter is in New Zealand. Yeah. All away, you know.
JH: Yes.
LH: Very unfortunate but there we are. I’ve got a boat out there but I shan’t get there in that. Yeah.
JH: So, after the war did you actually go on planes again? Did you fly again like? To go on holidays? Did you ever go in a plane again?
LH: Oh, I’ve been on holiday.
JH: Yes.
LH: I’ve been in.
JH: You did. Yeah.
LH: Flying. Flying in passenger planes. A bit different than wartime.
JH: Well, yes. Yeah.
LH: Do you know what I mean. Everybody says, ‘Oh, I’ve been flying there. Flying there.’ But there’s no —
JH: No comparison.
LH: You can’t compare.
JH: No.
LH: That with wartime. Well, nothing in wartime. You can’t compare, you know. It was a hazard there which obviously you don’t have now. You know, you go from here to wherever you want to go. It’s safe. But when you’re in an aircraft in wartime there’s bits of metal coming up at you.
JH: Was it —
LH: To knock you out the sky.
JH: That’s right. Was it difficult to go? Keep going back up during the war, you know? To actually keep getting up there again?
LH: No. I didn’t have any difficulty.
JH: No.
LH: Because I was young and probably stupid, you know.
JH: Everyone was so young, weren’t they?
LH: I don’t think I could do what I did.
JH: No.
LH: I couldn’t do today what I did when I was eighteen. That’s obvious. There are certain things we saw that you’d find very upsetting, you know. Obviously, I don’t try to dramatize anything like that. I don’t even speak about it.
JH: So, so you actually did finish at the end of the war did you? You didn’t —
LH: Yeah.
JH: Stay in the service for any length of time.
LH: In April. April ’45 I finished with the RAF.
JH: Right.
LH: That was my lot. Yeah. And I faced the horrors of peacetime [laughs] No, I enjoyed my life in the RAF. There were obviously good times.
JH: Yeah.
LH: And there was also bad times. But you overlook the bad times because you had such good mates. Good comrades. You know. Comrades that you don’t get in peacetime. You know. You’d get a chap, if you weren’t there he was there for you. Which is great, you know. Yeah.
JH: Are there any sort of particular sort of exploits that you remember? That you —
LH: I remember going to Driffield in August. August the 15th 1940 when we was expecting a dummy run from Catterick. Fighters. Instead of that there was Ju 88s and thirty five people got killed.
JH: Gosh.
LH: That was when I got to Topcliffe. Two weeks later we moved to Topcliffe which is near Thirsk and Ripon. I don’t know how many miles away but a few miles away. So that’s where I left before I went overseas. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Because I think that I’ve written that down.
LH: But —
JH: It was the 15th of August, wasn’t it?
LH: In all the history —
JH: Yeah.
LH: Of like —
JH: It was called Black Thursday wasn’t it?
LH: That’s right.
JH: Yeah.
LH: That’s it, and I remember that. August the 15th it was.
JH: Yeah.
LH: And I was at Driffield at the time. Yeah.
JH: Because I believe that was the last time then that they did, that the Germans did the daylight runs after that.
LH: Well, they didn’t do so many.
JH: No.
LH: Didn’t do so many.
JH: Yeah. It caught them out didn’t it?
LH: Pardon?
JH: Caught them out.
LH: Caught them a bit of a hiding. Yeah.
JH: Oh.
LH: But only through the courage of those few in fighters that did the trick, you know. I mean to say I know without fighters you can’t get anywhere but I think by virtue of the fact of the bombing that we did in Germany done the trick. That done it. Yeah. You know. Because I had friends that were in the RAF with me, they were different navigators or something, and they went back to Germany quite a bit and they were devastated by what they saw, you know. But —
JH: What did you think of, I think they called him Butch Harris, Bomber Harris. What were your thoughts on him? What were, what were the people thinking at that point?
LH: Well, no we always thought he was a good leader, you know.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Good leader. Definitely. He had the right, right thing in mind. These people who say you shouldn’t have done that to Berlin. Shouldn’t have done that. But let’s face it they started. They were the first ones to do the bombing. I mean to say, even though they were bombing us we was dropping leaflets instead of bombs. Couldn’t find the target. We used to drop the bombs in the North Sea. But they used to put the leaflets down the flare chute. On all the aircraft we had a flare chute where you dropped the flare to lighten up the target, you know but you used to drop and push them down there, you know. Used to, I used to come off the desk and the bomb aimer used to give me a hand and that’s the job we used to do. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. To Adolf.
JH: And what, what were the, what was your duty as a wireless operator? Just sort of —
LH: Well —
JH: For the people who are listening, you know. What —
LH: Obviously, over the target was silence. If necessary I’d call up base and let us know, you know we’re ok and we’re coming back. Invariably we’d go off about half seven at night, 8 o’clock at night and come back half three or four in the morning. And I will tell you it’s cold in the winter but you come across the North Sea and get on the Yorkshire flying field you feel the cold. Oh, it’s terribly cold.
JH: Really?
LH: Terribly cold. And admitted you had Irvin jacket, Irvin leggings, silk —
JH: Gloves.
LH: Gloves. Yeah. But you were freezing.
JH: Freezing.
LH: You’d have probably a tin of soup and a Milky Bar. You know.
JH: Wow.
LH: Yeah. And for those who were sick there was the toilet that you’d use. Yeah. You know, sometimes. But I’d only been sick twice. What reason I don’t know. I was in a Miles Magister.
[Telephone ringing. Recording paused]
LH: One of our, one of the fighter pilots on 94 Squadron, he said, ‘Coming out for a trip? We’re having a shoot around the landing grounds.’ So, I said, ‘Yeah. I’ll go up.’ I got up. Oh, I felt sick. And of course open cockpit. So vomited and of course the vomit was going all around me. Anyway, we landed and I was all, my appearance were always smart. My flying boots were always. And of course the ground crew come up to the aircraft, took the mail. I said, ‘The mail’s in the back.’ There’s a little box at the back of the aircraft. Take the mail out and of course we got airborne again but of course my handkerchief was full of vomit, wasn’t it? So I threw that out and of course he saw it flying out and he probably thought it was some letters or something, you know. Must have been a horrible shock. Yeah. And that pilot, a bloke called [Boshov], he was South African.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Later on in Yugoslavia they were hitting the trains as they were going out and of course he was too low and he got blown to pieces, you know. Yeah. Only a young bloke he was. Yeah. Yeah. There was two COs there. There was one there, MC Mason. They called him MC, because he had a beard and he was the only officer in the Royal Air Force that had a beard. He looked Jewish. A very good looking man really. He got shot down in Matuba in the Western Desert. And then there was another bloke called Foskett, Squadron Leader Foskett, he was CO of 94 Squadron. He got the chop in October ’44 out at sea off Greece. Engine trouble. Baled out and the canopy of his parachute got caught around the fuselage and he went down. Oh, I don’t know. An ordinary vessel picked up the wreckage and buried him at sea. Yeah. Yeah. Foskett. A bloke called Foskett. Yeah. Yeah. We had some, as I say we had some very nice people and, you know they just came and went, you know. But as I say I’m glad to be here. Not always glad to be here but [laughs] there are times when you feel you should be happy instead of sad. Well, you know being on your own for twenty years is not very pleasant. Well, I was explaining to our friend here, you know. Summertime’s not too bad. You know, you’re able to get out into the garden probably you know and, but the wintertime when it gets dark at 4 o’clock at night you know and there’s nobody to make a cup of tea except me. Oh, by the way would you like any refreshments?
JH: Well, we can do. Yes.
LH: What would you like?
Other: I can do that if you like.
JH: Yeah.
LH: What do you want? Tea? Coffee?
JH: Yeah. Just pause it a minute then.
LH: Beer. Whisky.
[recording paused]
JH: Ok. Yeah. So —
LH: I was adopted by my grandma and grandfather and [pause] what were we on about?
JH: Well, I was on about different diaries and things.
LH: Oh yeah.
JH: Yeah.
LH: And in April, February 1945 I’d left my, my kit bag and all my, my logbook, all my gear at my grandma’s and that particular night a rocket, it was the gas works next door to where she lived. Took the roof off and the house was demolished, and I lost everything I had. Photographs and things. All my personal stuff all gone. And that was a blow. So, you know I can’t ever refer to anything. I mean to say my memory, most of the time my memory’s quite good but you have days when you’re, you’re not so good, you know.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Well, I suppose the yellow matter’s drying up a bit you know if you can call it that. Yeah. Yeah. But as I say I’m quite happy. Happy clappy I suppose you’d call it.
JH: That’s lovely. But do you remember any other incidents and exploits throughout the war? Do you remember anything else?
LH: Yeah.
JH: That happened.
LH: I remember coming home on leave in 1940 and my grandma and grandfather obviously went down in to the shelter but I wouldn’t. I’d go to bed upstairs and I’d watch the, the what do you call it? The [pause] The German candles. What were they?
JH: I don’t know.
LH: Illuminated.
Other: Oh, they struck. Was it —
LH: Yeah. What did they call them?
Other: God. Flares.
LH: Flares. I’d watch the flares hanging on the gasometers. Hanging on the gasometers, but I thought to myself well, what I, what I’m doing, I’m near head office anyway then. I couldn’t be any nearer there then laying in this bed. At least I’m getting a good night’s kip, you know. Yeah. I’ll always remember that. Yeah. The street was hit quite, well Edmonton was hit quite a bit.
JH: Yeah.
LH: I lost a lot of people I knew, you know. As a boy you know. Yeah. Yeah. My grandfather was in the army for thirty odd years. Yeah. I don’t know much about my mother and father. They were wasted anyway. Yeah.
JH: Right. Were you an only child then?
LH: Pardon?
JH: Were you an only child? Did you have brothers and sisters?
LH: No. I’d got had a brother.
JH: Oh yeah.
LH: And a sister.
JH: Oh, ok. Yeah.
LH: But they’re both dead. It’s the way they, they were brought up, you know. Well, that’s what I put it down to. Yeah. They had a hard life they did. I had a good life being with my grandma. Because then my grandma had a daughter. Obviously my aunt.
JH: Yeah.
LH: She’s dead now but she was kind to me. Yeah. Yeah. I know I couldn’t have had a better parent really but it’s not the same as your mother and father, you know.
JH: No. No. And you enjoyed your education did you? You enjoyed it?
LH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I used to go to the church which was adjacent to where I lived. St John’s Church in Edmonton and we had boys dos and things. We used to play cricket and football on the vicar’s lawn, you know. We were all in the choir and all that sort of thing. I used to be in the choir. I suppose until I went in the Air Force really. And I was confirmed as you were in those days and during the week I used to help the vicar out and all that business, you know. And sometimes I thought I might have been a man of the cloth. I suppose I was thinking about going around knocking at the bride’s seeing whether they were all right [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. No. I’ve had an interesting life really. Yeah. But anyway, as I say I think good luck to both of you. You’re both doing a good job, you know. It’s nice to think that people do what you do. Actually, I never get involved with any of this to be honest, you know. People say to me, why don’t you do this and do that? You know. Somehow or other I can’t imagine myself parading up and down with my medals and all that. My medals are still in a box over there. Still as they sent them to me, you know. I can’t. No. I can’t.
JH: Do you know what medals you’ve got there?
LH: Oh yeah. I’ve got, well I’ve got the lot haven’t I? Yeah. ’39/45, Italian medal, Alemein, Western Desert Medals, Italy medal, you know. Yeah. But I’d have rather had the cash [laughs] All my grandfather’s medals all in South Africa now. Yeah. Yeah. All in the Services except my father and he was a dodger. He’d dodge anything he would. Waster. Proper waste. Proper waster.
JH: Did you, did you regret that you didn’t get in to the Navy? Or —
LH: Oh yeah. I did.
JH: You know, that was where you wanted to go.
LH: I wanted to go in the Navy. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
LH: My brother was in the Merchant Navy. That’s my brother there. And my cousin. Do you know we were all in the Services? Well, the war came on and when you were seventeen and eighteen the average bloke wanted to get in the Army or do something. They didn’t want to walk about not, not being in it. Whether right or wrong I don’t know but that was the general feeling, you know and I wanted the Navy. But didn’t have it of course. As I said to most of these sailors, I said, ‘I’ve squeezed more salt water out of my socks then you’ve seen.’ You know. Well, I did. We, when, now the beginning of the war there was no such things as aircraft carrying people to the war. They were all troop ships. And I’ll tell you this if anybody has experienced a troop ship they’ve experienced something. I’ll tell you. I was fortunate. I had a, a quarter on the boat deck and that’s on the level. But on these big liners you go down to about X Y Z. Right down in the hold. And all the old squaddies, you know all the army blokes were all piled down there, you know, cor terrible. And of course on all these ships you have watertight doors every hundred yards and they posted men on those all the time. Twenty four hours. In the event of a torpedo hitting which was there all the time they closed that so all those blokes in there had had it. Nothing. You couldn’t do nothing about it. So fortunately, I never had that trouble. I was on the boat deck. Not as though you would have survived. I mean to say if you were out in the North Atlantic. We started off at Gourock in, near Glasgow. Almost went to Canada. Zigzagged all the way down. Got down to the west coast of Africa, Freetown, and then zigzagged all the way down around South Africa. Got off at South Africa. Had a couple of weeks in South Africa and then I went up to Aden which was on the Persian Gulf and operated from there because the war was still in Abyssinia and Eritrea where the Eyties were there. But of course as soon as Rommel got up in to the Western Desert pushing everybody about, wanted all the squadrons up there. And that’s what happened. I got on HMS Isis. Destroyer. It took me out to Egypt in seventy two hours. Yeah. So went from a hundred and thirty degrees in the shade to well, weather almost like this, you know. Yeah.
JH: Did you manage the heat ok? Was it —
LH: Oh yeah.
JH: You liked it.
LH: I’d rather have the heat than the cold.
JH: Yeah. You were happy. Yeah.
LH: I can’t stand the cold now.
JH: Right.
LH: No, I can’t stand the cold. I can’t have the cold at all, no, but of course it’s different here. When you’re cold, you know I’m allowed a drop of Scotch if I want it, you know [laughs]. Yeah. Yeah. But as I say I do admire, well the work, the work you do because you don’t get paid for this, do you? You get petrol allowance. Don’t they give you that?
JH: They will do, yes.
LH: Do they?
JH: Yes.
LH: As they should do anyway. But there’s so many people that just put themselves out for various things you know which you are an unknown quantity. You are actually. You know what I mean. People don’t, they say all the chaps.
JH: Yeah.
LH: Blokes were regulars. Done seven or eight years and were still LACs, AC1s, but us young blokes going in to aircrew were sergeants straight away, but the difference being they had two their feet on the deck whereas ours were airborne, you know. That was the difference. And it took them a long time for those blokes to realise the dangers, you know. Nobody wanted to be a w/op AG I’ll tell you. Not after, not when the war got going. When there was say fifty bombers going out and ten, twenty coming back. That’s a lot of blokes gone. Yeah. I mean to say when you got in the mess in a morning. When you came back. The little tables where Dick, Tom and Harry used to be. Nobody. No. But you tried to not talk about it, you know. Yeah.
JH: Didn’t you used to have a special, was there a breakfast when you came back?
LH: Oh yeah. Always. E and B, weren’t it?
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
LH: Yeah. And it depends who the WAAF was you know. If she was a nice bird, you know.
JH: Yeah.
LH: See her down the pub. Yeah. Yeah. I visited a pub that we used to go in to at, when I was at the last station and of a night of course it would be crowded didn’t it? They used to run out of beer didn’t they? You’d get, I had, had a mate who played the piano. Didn’t have to have music. He could play anything. He came on the piano and while he was playing we’d take the hat around, ‘A drink for the player.’ He never got a bloody drink. We were doing all the drinking, you know. Oh yes.
Other: That’s how you paid for your night out [laughs]
LH: Yeah. Oh, Christ yeah. Anyway, that was good but anyway I revisited the pub after the war, you know. Dead. Dead as a doornail, you know. You just couldn’t visualise the activity that used to take place there, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So where do you go from here?
JH: Right. Thank you, Laurie for allowing me to record this interview today. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Laurence Harbutt
Creator
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Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarbuttLN180514, PHarbuttLN1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:38:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Laurie Harbutt was born in Edmonton, London. Before he volunteered he worked as a wireless telegraphist which was a Reserved Occupation. He wanted to join the Navy but because of his occupation his only option was RAF aircrew. He was posted to 77 Squadron on Whitleys. He witnessed RAF Driffield being attacked by enemy bombers on the 15th of August 1940 during the Battle of Britain. As the war in the Middle East escalated, he was posted to Aden. He spent three and a half years in the Western Desert. In 1943 he was attached to 94 Squadron, and subsequently 55 Squadron in Italy. At Monte Cassino he had to bale out of the aircraft and was badly injured in the fall. Fortunately, he was found by Polish soldiers and was sent to hospital. When he returned to the UK he was posted to 13 MU at RAF Henlow. Laurie recalls the sight of empty tables in the mess as so many didn’t return from the operations.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Italy
South Yemen
North Africa
England--Bedfordshire
England--Yorkshire
Italy--Cassino
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-08-15
1943
1945
102 Squadron
108 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
Blenheim
bombing
mess
military service conditions
RAF Driffield
RAF Henlow
training
Whitley
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/810/10793/AEdwardsM180621.1.mp3
b7de32541c9e2101b84c4b3d9b8dfe83
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Edwards, Frederick
F Edwards
Description
An account of the resource
26 items. The collection concerns Frederick Edwards (b. 1923) and contains his log book, maps, navigation charts, service documents, and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 101 Squadron. There is also an oral history interview with his son, Martin Edwards.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Martin Edwards and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Edwards, F
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Martin Edwards, son of Frederick Edwards for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Mr Edwards home and it is the 21st of June 2018. Thank you, Martin for agreeing to talk to me today. Can you tell me about, you know, your father? His date of birth, where he was born and early years that you know.
ME: Yeah. Sure. That’s not a problem. Dad was born on the 20th of June 1923 in Belvedere in Kent which is now a part of Greater London. The family house. We had a farm and he was one of eight. He was the second son. Second eldest son. His eldest son was Harry. Yeah. And he went to St Augustine’s School in Heron Hill in Belvedere and then on to Brook Street School in Erith. His brother Harry got a scholarship and got to the Grammar School. But the family couldn’t afford to send more than one so dad just stayed at school and did the General Certificate or whatever it’s called, of education that they took then and then left at fifteen. I don’t know what he did after work but he ended up, I think he was an office boy at a company called Sloggett’s which was a builders. Now, whether that was before or after the war I don’t know. But he definitely worked with Sheila Hancock. She was a secretary there so she probably doesn’t remember him. And then he, he started his active service in 1943 and he, he trained to be a navigator which he got sent to Canada to be a navigator. Then he came back in to the UK and was in 101 Squadron for thirty ops and bombed Dresden. Part of them, but Ludwigshafen, Berchet — Hitler’s bunker. He bombed that as well. And one of his proudest claims is that the people he flew with, or his crew they never lost a single person. They came back and everyone came back safe. Always. He has some funny stories to tell. He had some funny stories to tell. One of the, one stories he said, he’s told me was, was when they’d flown to the target and it was fog bound so they had to come back and dump the bombs in the North Sea. And the pilot, who it appears he had the same pilot all the way through, a Flight Officer Brooking, he said, ‘Well, where can we bomb, Fred?’ And he said, ‘We’ll go and bomb the Frisian Islands.’ So they plotted a course to the Frisian Islands and bombed the Frisian Islands and then flew home. And the commandant or whoever it is said, ‘Any successful? Anyone successful mission?’ Everyone said no except for dad who said, ‘Yeah. We bombed the Frisian Islands.’ ‘Ok. Fair enough.’ Other funny stories. There’s lots of funny stories. They used to, because of the trip they’d taken and France was already being, they were already fighting in France when he was flying so they’d fly over to France and then up through France over the trenches and then up in to their target in Germany. And as they crossed the trenches what the rear gunner would do they’d take all sorts of rubbish out the, out the mess and they’d throw darts and anything they couldn’t down on to the Germany trenches hoping to at least hit one or two Germans. But the rear gunner used to take a bottle of wine with him with a cork and then he used to drop the cork and then the bottle of wine and they said, ‘Why did you do that?’ He said, ‘Well, Fritz is sitting down there in the trench, the cork hits him on the helmet, he looks up, ‘Was ist das?’ and gets the bottle in the face.’ That was the theory anyway. In practice they were probably miles apart. But that’s not the point. The biggest disappointment I think was Dresden because he felt very upset that people seemed to indicate, and over time that they went there to intentionally burn, burn Dresden. Which they didn’t. He just went to bomb his, bomb his targets and come back and the fact that the wooden houses, they caught fire was an unfortunate result but he was very upset that it seems now being diverted that, or the impression is that they went to Dresden to burn it down and they didn’t. Although those deaths were very unfortunate but he really didn’t like that. That people were sort of saying, ‘Oh, well, you know, you were nasty,’ sort of thing. Amusing stories. The rear gunner who shot a cheese sandwich. Sorry the upper gunner who shot a cheese sandwich. This is the one story that all my family remember. And they had a bomb aimer, not a bomb aimer, I think it was the radio operator who didn’t like cheese sandwiches. So every day you’d fly off and you get your cheese sandwiches because that’s all you’re going to get. And he goes, and he really had not a good time of it or whatever so he threw his cheese sandwich out the port in the roof where dad took his mirrors. And as it flew past the upper mid-upper gunner he shot it. A big burst of fire. He said, ‘What was that?’ ‘Well, I don’t know but it was going really fast.’ So when they came back to land, ‘Any hits?’ He said, ‘Does a cheese sandwich count?’ ‘Fine. Never mind.’ Other stories. The hung up bomb. He, they flew out and one of the bombs was hung up. It was stuck in its cradle. So they opened, the bomb doors were open and they opened the hatch. There’s an inspection hatch or something in the plane and they were holding on to my dad who was only five foot three. And he’s trying to kick this bomb out while you’ve got the bomb doors open and everything like that and they couldn’t shift it so they came back. And they flew to the airport and they let go of the flares which, because the radio gear had been shot out. They sent the necessary flares out to say that they’d got a bomb hung up. They came in to land. They were given permission to land. They were waved in and went straight in to the hangar where everyone was and two wingless wonders as dad used to call them came down and went, ‘Didn’t quite understand the flares, old chap.’ He said, ‘Oh, we’ve got a bomb hung up.’ ‘Oh f —.’ And everyone was diving for cover. Sorry. Sorry about the language but [laughs] so everyone was diving for cover because they’d got this bomb that could have gone off at any moment. You know. So no problem. So it didn’t go off thank goodness. So that was, that was that. Other stories. I’m trying to think. There was, there was the bomb aimer. He, you always used to get a prism. The bomb aimer would get a prism in a bag. He’d have to sign for it and go out and then he’d put it in to the necessary hole in the plane to lay the bombs. And they were going along and they’re reaching the target and the bomb aimer had lined everything up and he turned away to check that the bomb doors were open and everything was right. He turned back and the prism was absolutely shattered. The ack ack had hit the prism and it shattered. So had he been looking in the prism it would have smashed his face up. But just by doing the checks, safety checks he got away with it and so when they got back they go, you know to return the prism he goes, ‘Shh,’ and just lets out loads of glass shards over the bloke’s desk. ‘There it is.’ He goes, ‘Oh thanks. Yes. I don’t think I can fix it though.’
[recording paused]
ME: Well, I’ll sort of go back to the beginning. His service record which you would probably be interested in. He started. He’s got a summary. Well, I’ve got his logbook. That’s the point. I’ve got a lot of his stuff which will be on the, on the site. There’s the map when he flew to Dresden. The actual map he plotted the course and came back. Plus all his notes. The logbook. What he did. Where he did it. Where they crossed the coast. What times it was and everything like that. So he started his service in, on the 30th of the 9th. 30th of September 1943 and he ended it on the 30th of the 9th 1946. Right. He completed thirty operations. The last three which I’ll talk about later because they are important to me. But he bombed Ludwigshafen which I’ve been there. This BASF lives at Ludwigshafen and he’s bombed them twice so [laughs] I thought of going to tell them but I don’t think they’re very keen. And he bombed Hitler’s bunker as well. So he did, he did quite a few of the right sort of bombings. So, yeah I mean we could go through the ops but these are all recorded. So Essen, Ludwigshafen, Kirn. Standard Hanover, Hanau, Bottrop, Kleve, Dresden. There we go. Dresden. The 13th of the 2nd 1945.
JH: Right.
ME: That was his mother’s birthday. The 13th. And he died in the 13th of the 2nd 2015. Seventy years. The anniversary of him bombing Dresden. Or being navigator that bombed Dresden. In the plane that bombed Dresden. Which is just incredible. So, yeah. Bottrop, Mannheim, Ludwigshafen it’s all there. Kirn, Dessau, Misburg. Bombed. Sixteen bombs. Air test. Oh, air test bombing. That wasn’t an operation obviously. His last three operations are the ones I really want to talk about. And that was his sandbag dropping. All that sort of thing. Positive. And again Berchtesgaden which is where Hitler was.
JH: And he kept the same —
ME: That was the last. Last op. Twenty six of them. That was the last op that he did. Bombing.
JH: The pilot was the same. Yeah.
ME: Oh Brooking. Brooking. Yeah. His pilot. Brooking, all the way through. The same pilot. A Mr Brooking. He got promoted quite a lot. Started as a flight officer. Whatever his name was. Oh, one of the things he used to say with crash landings. He said, you fly back and it would be on automatic pilot and he said you get almost to the end, seven minutes to landing and he would go and wake the pilot up and say, ‘Seven minutes to landing, skipper.’ And he’d go, ‘Where do you want? What’s the heading?’ He’d give him the heading and they’d go and land it. And he said most, most of the crash landings they had were due to pilot error. Forgot to put the undercarriages down and other things like that. Lock them down. Because they’d just woken. It had been a ten hour flat. The bloke. And he said when he was, when he was flying the skipper said to him once, ‘Why don’t you come up the front and have a look what’s going? How can you sit back there and not know what’s happening?’ And he said he went to the front of the plane and there’s tracer bullets and the wings were like only a foot apart on the planes and there was things diving everywhere and he said, ‘I went back and sat down,’ he said, ‘I’d rather not know.’ But you can imagine the pilot. The stress the pilot must have been under. So coming back, automatic pilot, once you got over the trenches and you’re back switch the automatic pilot on and he had a kip. Then he’d wake him up. Seven minutes before landing. ‘Seven minutes to landing, skipper.’ ‘Alright. Heading?’ And then he’d take them in. Incredible.
JH: What planes were —?
ME: They were Lancasters.
They were Lancasters. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
ME: Yeah. Lancasters. They were all asleep. Dad was the only one that was awake. He went to Whittlesford on his eightieth birthday. My uncle took him. Uncle Harry. Well, Sally and Harry. Harry and Elsie took him to Whittlesford. 101 Squadron were still there. And he was going through the plane and the guide, one of the ladies, the girls who did the guides he said they didn’t know what, there was a hole in the floor right by where he sat and they said, ‘What’s that for?’ And he said, ‘Oh that’s where you drop the flares out.’ If you wanted to, you know send up flares you didn’t. You dropped them out there. You lit them and you dropped them out that hole. And they didn’t know. And so he’s trying to explain things to this guide and all the other people on the trip are going, ‘Come on, we’re going,’ He goes, ‘No. No. No. He can stay as long as he wants. He’s one of us.’ You know. So she let him prattle on forever. But yeah that was his eightieth birthday so that would have been 19 — quick calculation 1993. No. 2003. Yeah. Eighty. Twenty. Yeah, 2003. Yeah. So it wasn’t that long ago.
JH: No.
ME: But they’ve just shifted from Whittlesford. 101 Squadron. It’s only just moved. Well, was moving then sort of thing. So I think that’s why he was taken. But, yeah the last three trips. The last operations he did was sort of, [pause] turning the page, the Manna droppings. And this is, when I was a kid he used to say, ‘Oh, we’d fly the plane and we flew it so low that you could look up to people on hay bricks.’ You know, haystacks. You were that low you were looking up at haystacks. And I thought, oh yeah. Right. Yeah. Blah. Blah. Blah, you know, ‘Yes dad, I believe you. Not.’ He said, ‘Yes. We had to do this low level flying.’ Right. And then later on when I was older he told me about these Manna droppings. And I said, ‘What were those?’ He said, ‘Well, basically Hitler was, well the Germans as well were starving. They were still occupied. Holland was still occupied and they were absolutely starving, and they couldn’t. No food or anything so we, we dropped food for them. For the Dutch to eat.’ The freedom Dutch fighters or whatever, the Dutch people to eat. And he would fly in, they would fly in low level to a designated place only a couple of foot off the ground by the sounds of things, and they open the bomb doors and chuck everything. And everything would drop out. So no crates. Loose foods in tins. Well, the eggs would have broken I guess. But I think it was tinned. Dried eggs.
JH: Dried. Yeah.
ME: And he said they banked as they flew in there was no one there they couldn’t see any bodies. As they banked and flew away all the food had gone and they still couldn’t see anybody. They just had to clear the field really quickly so they must have been hundreds of people waiting for this to drop and just dropped it. No crates. No nothing. Just dropped it out. and then they flew away. And they did three of those. And that’s, and years later my cousin, Harry’s daughter had married a guy called Phillip and dad died and when dad had died I was talking to him afterwards and I told him about this Manna thing. The Manna drops. And he said, ‘I wish I knew because he saved the lives of my family.’ And he and that too me should be what is lauded about what happened in the war. That’s the thing that people really should. That’s the just incredible act of bravery to fly in that low to save people’s lives. It’s completely the opposite of killing people. Saving people’s lives. It’s just an absolutely brilliant story. And to actually know somebody whose family had survived because of it. just incredible. Even though he bombed the Frisian Islands.
JH: Yes.
ME: [laughs] Which I’m sure they’ll forgive him for. I mean, I guess that’s where the, anyway after that he did his thirty services. Never lost a man as I said. They never had the same crew but he obviously had the same pilot. And I wonder where he is. I wonder if he’s still alive. It might be nice to meet him. Anyway, that’s and so then he went in to, went over to serve the rest of his time over in Egypt and flying bodies to the central, to the crematoriums and what have you. One of the funny stories. When I was at school I was learning German and I came back and said, ‘Oh. I’ve started to learn German,’ and dad went to me, ‘Oh, fish paste is best.’ And I goes, ‘What?’ He said, ‘That’s German for what time it is.’ I said, ‘No, it’s not. It’s wie spät ist es. Not fish paste is best.’ So these are the phrases they were supposed to learn in case they were shot down. I don’t think he would have got very far, do you? [laughs] And again when he came back from Egypt some Arab came over or something oh [unclear] ‘What?’ And these are the phrases they picked up while they were out there. So they were, yeah just ferrying bodies left, right and centre. Get them all back. You know, from the desert and everywhere. All the fighting. So they were getting them all back to the cemeteries in Libya and wherever. Egypt.
JH: And what were they flying? What planes were these?
ME: Oh, they were flying Dakotas.
JH: Oh right.
ME: Yeah. American planes. One time he was out there it snowed and he said it was the funniest sight he’d seen because all these Egyptians thought the end of the world had happened because it was snowing. It doesn’t snow [laughs] and they’d never seen snow before and they were all praying to Allah and running around in circles. It was just a bit of snow. It didn’t settle but it was snowing. So he just thought it was hilarious. Then he came out, left, and he came and he met mum. Well, that, that is a romantic story in itself.
JH: Oh, tell us.
ME: Yeah. It’s a romantic story. I mean mum’s still alive but she’s not well bless her. But she, he was, I’m a DJ right. I’m a mobile DJ. I’ve been a DJ since I was seventeen. He was the first mobile DJ. He would put his wind up gramophone in a wheelbarrow and his 78s and wheel it down to the local Youth Club and wind it up and play the records. And they were all jive records. You know the old. And the Royal Air Force Band and all sorts of things like that. So him and mum were great jivers. But that’s not the story. Mum went back to my gran one day and said to gran, ‘I’ve seen the man I’m going to marry.’ And gran said, ‘Well, what’s his name.’ So, ‘I don’t know his name. I’ve just seen him.’ And she’d seen him wheeling his wheelbarrow. And she cornered him and obviously ended up marrying him [laughs] Fought off all opposition and ended up married. So we guys haven’t have much chance at all. We’ve, I’ve decided that. And they were married sixty five years and they were in love. Oh just the stories I could tell about that is just —
JH: And when did, what year would they have married then?
ME: They married 1949.
JH: Ok. Right.
ME: And they built their own house. Dad was, as I said working in construction so he went to Night School and became a surveyor. Taught himself basically. Went to Night School. Paid for himself to go to Night School. Learned to be a surveyor. And where we lived, Belvedere was bombed out because I mean one of my ex-girlfriends her grandparents were bombed out seven times because we were south of the Thames. So the planes, the German bombers would come up the south of the Thames and just bomb everything because the arsenal was there. And they didn’t know where it was exactly but they knew it was south of the Thames so they just bomb along south of the Thames. So when I was a kid I used to play in these bomb holes and pretend they were bomb holes. And when you grow up you realise they were bomb holes [laughs] So you played war in actual bomb holes. But no, they got a bombed out site, boarded site. A house. Dad, dad designed the house. They dug the, mum dug the foundations and then he employed builders and they built the house. Family house. And so and my sister was born 1950. So they were married in ’49. So just checking [laughs] And it well just he was a surveyor and ended up working for several companies and ended up at housing construction in London where he was a quantity surveyor. So basically his job was to price. If you were building a housing estate which they were he would price up the housing estate and they’d invite tenders. And they’d all come in. He’d lock them in a drawer and then he’d go out and price the job up and come back and find which tender was closest to what he estimated the cost to be. Not the cheapest. The closest one to what he estimated it to be. But the corruption in the, there was so much corruption there he said because they had this little box that said percent discount which was always empty when he put the tenders in to the drawer and when he got them out it had already been filled in so that it was, percent discount was closest. But we won’t go into corruption in government because that’s just too much because he was as honest as the day is long. He would not. He hated it. The corruption was just too terrible for words. But —
JH: Was he working in that right through to retirement then?
ME: Yeah. Yeah. I mean he basically took early retirement. They shut County Hall down. He just took early retirement. So he retired at fifty six and moved down to Kent. In to this lovely village called Woodchurch. It’s got two pubs, one church, one cricket square and a windmill and it’s just archetypal, and you just go in, drive around and go out again. It’s not really. Jan Francis lives there. You know, Jan. “Just good friends.” Jan.
JH: Yeah.
ME: See, name dropping everywhere. Sheila Hancock. Jan Francis. Just loads of them. But a story he did tell about in the war, the Windmill Theatre. Very famous theatre in London which was open twenty four hours throughout the war seven days a week and it had naked women in there. And there were always naked women. They weren’t allowed to move. They just stood on the stage while the acts were going on and what have you. And he told me of what they called the Windmill Steeplechase. And I said, ‘What’s that then?’ And he said, ‘Well, basically the guys in the front they would stay there for ages and if they, once the act ended or whatever they would leave and the people in the seats behind them would jump over to the seat in front and the people behind them would jump over the seat in front. So everyone would move one forward. So the people at the back would slowly move down and then you go home. You’d probably spent all forty eight hours rest. All your R&R was spent in the Windmill Theatre jumping over seats. But the Windmill Steeplechase. Now, no one’s ever heard, no one’s ever told me about that since. Dad was the only person that told it to me. So that was quite amusing. The Windmill Steeplechase. But no, I mean he had, he had a great life. He just really was honest. He enjoyed his golf.
JH: Is that what he did in retirement really?
ME: Yeah. I mean he was.
JH: Golf and —
ME: Golf was basically his passion but mum joined him with golf as well. She couldn’t, if you can’t beat them join them and they just used to go on holiday and just play as many golf courses as they could. Just go somewhere in the UK and play as many golf courses as they could. But I mean the rows, the only rows they ever had, the only rows were well when one of them played more golf than the other in a week [laughs] It was like, ‘You’re playing more than me.’ ‘So.’ So they used to play three or four times a week. But no, I mean it was they were incredibly in love. I mean I’ve never seen anything like it. I mean I’ve never been married because I could never compete with how in love they were. Dad would come home from work and snog her face off before we could have our dinner. I was just like wow. She’s, yeah it’s just incredible.
JH: Well, thank you Martin for allowing me to record this interview today and, yeah I’m sure everyone will enjoy all the memories that you’ve been able to record about your dad. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Martin Edwards
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Judy Hodgson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AEdwardsM180621
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:23:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Martin Edwards recounts the war-time stories of his father, Frederick Edwards. Frederick was born in Kent in 1923, and lived on the family farm. He joined the RAF in 1943 as was posted to Canada for training as a navigator. On his return to England, he finished his training and joined 101 Squadron where he completed his tour of thirty operations in Lancasters. Martin tells several humorous stories told by his father, including the time the mid-upper gunner shot down a cheese sandwich. On another occasion, when the aircraft had a hung-up bomb, Frederick tried to kick the bomb free without success, and as their radio had been damaged, they sent flares upon their arrival and were directed straight into a hangar, where they told senior officers and everyone scattered. Often on the return journey, the crew went to sleep after they left enemy territory with the aircraft on autopilot, except for Frederick, and it was his job to wake the pilot up seven minutes before landing, to take control. During his time on operations, none of his crew were killed, although the bomb sight was hit by anti-aircraft fire whilst the bomb aimer was looking away. Frederick told Martin that he was disappointed in the reaction he got from people after the war about the bombing of Dresden. His final three operations were Operation Manna food drops over Holland. He was then posted to Egypt where he flew C-47's carrying bodies of servicemen to the cemeteries. He finished his service in 1946.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
North Africa
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1946
101 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
C-47
Lancaster
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Elsham Wolds
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/665/10069/AAdamsCB170802.2.mp3
70f515073c186da3731f0b76d4da4eef
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Adams, Cyril Bristow
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Cyril Bristow Adams (1921 - 2017, 1429890 Royal air Force). He served as an engine fitter with 49 and 83 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Adams, CB
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Cyril Adams today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mr Adam’s home and it is the 2nd of August 2017. Thank you, Cyril for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Sue Ford, his daughter. So, Cyril can you tell me your date of birth, where you were born and something of your early years with your family?
CA: Well, I was born 9th of December [pause] which — 1921. I lived with my father and mother and sister and grandma in a house in Battersea, London. Unfortunately, it was bombed and they were killed. I was in the Air Force at the time so probably I was lucky.
JH: And what were you actually doing though in the years before the war as a young boy?
CA: Well, I was apprenticed. Well, after school I was apprenticed to an engineering firm until I joined up in 1941.
JH: And where was that?
CA: We went to where the airships —
JH: Cardington. Cardington.
CA: Cardington. That’s where it started. And [pause] well from there you go to — you were introduced to the ways and wherefores of the Air Force and they send you away to do some training in, and square bashing and all that sort of business. Then I went to [pause] a place called — oh what’s it called? Where they do — I was on a fitter 2 course. Where I became a fitter 2E. AC2.
JH: And was the training in various places? I mean, did you move around?
CA: I moved around. I went to [pause] Scampton with 83 Squadron as a fitter 2. 49 Squadron. That was at Scampton too. And then I went to a Heavy Conversion Unit. 1661. Which was at [pause] where we played bridge. What was that called?
SF: Swinderby, was it?
CA: Swinderby. Yeah. And when I was at Swinderby I got, I went overseas to — I left Bomber Command. I went overseas to Transport Command at Lydda in Palestine. And I was there for — to the end of the war.
JH: So, what year was that then? Do you remember?
CA: Well, it was 1944 to ’46. And then we came home on what they called the Medlock Route which was, we came by lorry across the Sinai Desert into Egypt by the Bitter Lakes. And from there we went by boat to Toulon. And then by train across France to Calais and then Dover and then up to where we got demobbed. That’s roughly what happened.
JH: And what aeroplanes did you actually fly in throughout the war? What? Were they all the same?
CA: Hampdens.
JH: Right.
CA: That was the first lot. And then we had Manchester which was the forerunner for the Lancaster. And then we had Lancasters with 83 and 49 Squadron. I left there. They became a unit and I went to 1661 Conversion Unit where we built up engines from, for the Lancaster and Stirlings. When I was abroad I worked — it was like, Lydda was a Transport Command aerodrome and we serviced aeroplanes that were going out to the Far East. And it was quite pleasant in Palestine. We had the trouble with the Arabs and Jews but, well it’s history isn’t it?
JH: And what was your actual job, if you like? When you were —
CA: I was a fitter 2.
JH: Yeah. All the time. All the way through.
CA: On the engines. Yeah. I became a corporal, acting sergeant. Which I fulfilled the job of looking after and the daily running of the maintenance on the planes that came through. Or planes that — I was on a squadron as well.
JH: Do you remember any particular operations that you did throughout the war with — you know?
CA: Well, I can remember the German Navy going up the English Channel. That’s the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst. Planes I was on, they went in to bomb it and they were damaged. I can remember the Peenemunde raid which was in Poland which where they were trying out all the V-1s and V-2s. And I can remember the first thousand bomber raid which took place while I was at Scampton.
JH: Did you have many crews? Did you change crews very often?
CA: Well [pause] we had like a engine fitter, aircraft [pause] like an aeroplane fitter and they were on probably two planes. They used to do the maintenance and then that’s while I was on a squadron.
[pause]
JH: Were you anywhere where you had any near misses through your, you know, flights or —
CA: Misses?
JH: Any?
CA: Well, we, when you did a, any work on the aircraft they went up on what they used to call a night flying test and you had to go with them. Just as a, it was posted, issued out with parachutes and you went up with the plane and checked everything was alright with what you’d done. While it was flying. These amounted to, well they varied from half hour if it was quick job or if they went a bit further could be an hour. So, I could see the idea that if your work wasn’t up to scratch you were — you reaped the benefit [laughs]
[pause]
CA: It, it was a, well we wouldn’t say it was a really hard life. But you were out in the elements all the time and most of the work was done out on the dispersals. But some of the work was done in a hangar. Engine changes and things like that, as and when they came up.
JH: How many of you would be working on —
CA: Pardon?
JH: How many of you worked together? You know, on a job sort of thing. How many of you?
CA: Oh, the ground crew I should think was about fifty for a squadron. And we used to march from the hangars out to dispersals. Used, used to have a transport listing circulate the aerodrome and they used to get lifts out to where ever you were wanted to work.
JH: Did you actually have much leave? You know.
CA: Well, leave. We got —
JH: What did you do?
CA: A week. A weeks’ leave every three months. And seven days. And then you’d, if you were lucky you could get a forty eight hour pass. But as most of that was taken up in travelling it didn’t seem much point really because most of it was done with hitchhiking you know. The forces seem to be well catered for on the lifts they got. There weren’t many cars on the road because of the petrol shortage. But there was always lorries that you got a lift in.
JH: And where did you go when you went on leave anyway?
CA: Well, went in to London. The family were there until they were killed and then after that we — I got the wife accommodation in a nearby town and I used to go there you know. Whenever I got a pass.
JH: When did you get married then?
CA: 1942.
JH: How did you meet?
CA: Well, before I joined up. About 1940. We met at — we both worked at Harrods. I was in the, on the, in the engine room because they generated all the power for the shop from the engine room. Diesel generators and steam boilers. And they had a hundred and forty lifts which were maintained. A lot of them were goods lifts as opposed to what the customers used. And while I was there they fitted in an escalator. And when the, when there was an air raid the girls that did the — on the switchboard went down to the shelters and the lads who worked on the engineering side used to go up to the exchange and work the switchboards up there ‘til the air raid was finished and we swapped back again.
JH: And what did your wife do there then if she was working there?
CA: She was working there for a time and then in haberdashery. And then she went and worked for Selfridges after that until our first child was born. And that’s my, that’s Susan’s brother and he was born in ’44. It was very, it was a very fortunate birth because she was in St Thomas’ at the time that the V, V-1s destroyed our house. So — and that was that.
JH: And then what? You finished in ’46 was it?
CA: Yeah. Finished in ’46. In November.
JH: Were you in touch with any of your old mates? Crew mates, you know. Or squadron mates.
CA: Not since. No.
JH: No.
CA: I haven’t been in touch.
JH: No.
CA: Well, the chaps I used to work with on the squadron some of them came to my wedding but after that everybody split up and went, you know different places.
JH: And after that? You know, when you’d left your squadrons and what did you do sort of then in later years then?
CA: What?
JH: Work and —
CA: When I came back into England I went to get my old job back but the, the recompense wasn’t very good. So, I got a job with [pause] with the Vestey organisation. And I became eventually their chief engineer. I had to study at night school to get where I wanted to go but eventually got there.
JH: Where you based then? Where was this?
CA: This was — I lived in Battersea. Then we had what they used to call [pause] accommodation that was bought by the government and then you were able to live as, as a family in the house that the government had bought. And then I got a — after about two years, that’s when Susan came along. We went to live in Shaftsbury Park Estate which was an estate mostly of terraced houses. And then we moved out of London where we bought property in [pause] in Hertfordshire.
JH: So, did you still work at the same place or was this after all this?
CA: Oh, I worked all over the place.
JH: Oh. Right.
CA: I worked in Northern Ireland. A place called Carrickfergus. And then I went to work in Nigeria for the same firm doing much the same job.
JH: What — did your family go with you or —
CA: On one occasion they did. But not the children. It was just the wife because they were growing up and they were at the teacher’s training college weren’t you? And my son John was — he joined the Stock Exchange. And I didn’t really benefit from that [laughs] Unfortunately, he’s died since but [pause] we had our moments. And that — I was working in Peterborough when I was made redundant in ’81. And we lived in a place called Deeping St James which was just on the corner of Lincoln and Peterborough. Lincolnshire. Not Lincoln. And then after that I — my daughter, who lived in St Neots, near St Neots she thought when my wife died in ’98 [pause] she thought it would be better if I came down nearer to where she lived. And I’ve had this flat and I’ve been here, well eighteen years now. So, that’s, that’s me.
JH: Did you ever fly after the war? You know, have you gone into aeroplanes on holidays.
CA: No. I didn’t. No. I didn’t do any. Only as passenger. That’s all.
[pause]
JH: There aren’t any particular exploits that you remember? That —
CA: Pardon?
JH: Can you remember any particular exploits that happened? Any of your, you know, through your war years. Do you remember?
CA: Well, I did mention some of the bombing raids that I was servicing the aeroplanes that took part in it previously. No. I don’t think there was anything outstanding really.
JH: You didn’t feel in danger particularly. You know, from —
CA: Oh, we came under fire several times when I was in Palestine. The, the Irgun Zvai Leumi. That’s a terrorist group. A Jewish terrorist group. And, and I was taken prisoner by the 6th Airborne Division and kept in a compound overnight until the adjutant vouched for me that I worked for him. So, that was — well it was —
JH: Quite scary.
CA: Part of the job that. What I was used to.
SF: You formed a Cycling Club, didn’t you? Out there.
CA: What?
SF: You formed a Cycling Club out there.
CA: Oh yeah. We had cycling. I was always a cyclist. And we [pause] the place I was at at Lydda we formed a cycling club and we used to tear around the roads doing time trials in Palestine with the — and the Arabs knew what we were doing. They used to throw stones at us knowing we wouldn’t stop. So, we got the help of the Palestine police. They marshalled the route that we were on so that put a stop to that. These were bikes that we bought in Italy and sent out because being in Transport Command you could utilise the aircraft for, for well for your own purposes sometimes. The, and we were able to buy fruit and stuff that the civilians in England hadn’t seen for all, all the war. And we got that sent back by bomber — well, they weren’t Bomber Command. They were Transport Command. They used to run a service and all the Prisoners of War that were out in Far East came through our aerodrome in transit to — they were flown home. It took us three months to get home but they had bigger. They had the opportunity of flying so they took it I think. And they weren’t in very good condition either some of the poor devils. Mostly from the Far East. Japanese Prisoners of War. So that’s, that’s my story.
CA: Ok. Is there anything else that you can think of that he might mean to add or —
SF: I can remember him telling me what it was like to come home on the train. How uncomfortable it was going through France.
CA: Oh yeah. We used to travel by train. They used to be old German carriages, and with wooden seats. And they used to stop in a siding for hours and hours while the rest of the railway went rumbling by. And also they had places where you could use washing facilities. Not showers but washing facilities and food. It was all arranged on this Medlock Route across France. When we got to Paris the, all the bridges were down [pause] and we, they were all temporary bridges that were built for trains to go across. And they weren’t very stable. I can remember that.
JH: Why was this called the Medlock Route? What, what —?
CA: Well, it was [pause] we got a boat across the Mediterranean from Port Tewfik. Up the Canal and in we went. The boat we were on broke down and they towed us in to Malta. And we transferred on to another boat but we weren’t allowed to go ashore so we didn’t see much of Malta. And we went off between Sicily and Italy. Saw Mount Etna and other volcano islands. And eventually we got to the South of France and we went into transit camp there until we got the train. Took three months to get home.
JH: I can imagine.
SF: I also remember dad telling me about when he went up to Cardington when he was a young lad or man. And he had, they took you to big hangars there.
CA: Yeah. We slept in one of the airship hangars.
SF: Slept on the floor.
CA: Really draughty old places they were. But that was where they gave you brown paper and string to wrap all your civilian clothes up and sent them home and issued you with a uniform. When we got back they issued with civilian clothes. The other way around when we got to the demob centre which was near Birmingham.
SF: And mum went up to live there for a while, I think.
CA: Yes. She did.
SF: Because she had been bombed in London and you had a room somewhere. Was it Grantham? I can’t remember now.
CA: We had a room there. Yeah. We had to move the bed to open the door. Still it was a place to live. That’s in a place called Newark, Notts. And I used to cycle into, to Swinderby from Newark. It was only about ten miles and used to, sometimes used to get passes for weekends and things like that. While I was there at Swinderby I was in a Nissen hut complex on the side of a river. And there was no [pause] facilities for washing or anything like that. So we used to wear Wellington boots and go down and shave in the river and wash. And it was all good fun that was. Right.
JH: Ok. We’ll just, just pause for a moment then.
[recording paused]
JH: I’d like to thank you, Cyril today for allowing me to record this interview. Thank you very much.
CA: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Cyril Bristow Adams
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAdamsCB170802
Format
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00:41:36 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Northern Ireland
England--Bedfordshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Peterborough
England--London
England--St. Neots
Middle East--Palestine
Nigeria
Great Britain
Great Britain
England--Huntingdonshire
Description
An account of the resource
Cyril was born in London in 1921 and lived in Battersea with his relatives; he met his wife in 1940 while working at Harrods. His family were killed by bombing after he joined up. Cyril enlisted at RAF Cardington in 1941 and was trained to be a fitter, then joined Bomber Command at RAF Scampton working on Hampdens, Manchesters and Lancasters for 83 and 49 Squadrons. He got married in 1942 and lost his house to a V1 while his wife was in St. Thomas’s hospital having their first child. Cyril was transferred to RAF Swinderby to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit working on Lancasters and Stirlings before being posted to Transport Command serving in Palestine from 1944 to 1945. After demobilisation he worked in Northern Ireland, Nigeria and Peterborough. After being made redundant and losing his wife in 1998, he moved to St. Neots to be closer to his daughter.
Contributor
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Steve Baldwin
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1998
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
49 Squadron
83 Squadron
bombing
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Manchester
RAF Cardington
RAF Scampton
RAF Swinderby
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/775/9295/PYoungP1601.2.jpg
30070398b70ac48a0019b24af998f559
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/775/9295/AYoungP160518.2.mp3
e68ee8adabc4547c37023bb2aea185ce
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young, Patricia
P Young
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Patricia Young. She was the daughter of a Flight Sergeant in the stores at RAF Waddington. She experienced the bombing of Waddington village.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Young, P
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Pat Young today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mrs Young’s home and it is the 18th of May 2016. Thank you, Pat for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Reg Young, Pat’s husband. I’m talking today with Pat about her father who was called Lancelot Stobart. He was born on the 27th of August 1900 in Newcastle. So, Pat, can you tell me when and where you were born and memories of your early years?
PY: I was born in Waddington, in a thatched cottage which was directly opposite the church. The cottage was about five hundred years old and in the grounds was the bakery. It was the family bakery being started by my grandparents. And I was born there February the 7th 1933. And I have fond memories of the cottage which was also very closely allied to the church and the bakery business, and we were a very sort of village based family. My father came in to the village in 1925 when he was based at the, the [pause] the RAF camp. But it wasn’t then. It was called the Air Training Corps. He joined the Air Training Corps. And he married my mother and he always took a great part in the bakery business. I can remember the garden. We had a lovely garden at the back of the cottage. And one of my earliest memories is digging out the base for the air raid shelters. We thought it was great fun. Never envisaged anything dreadful was going to happen. Just enjoyed digging out and the thought of having this little house underground. Reality struck I suppose when one morning early in the garden I was with my father and it was at the outbreak of war and a plane was heard in the distance. And my father instantly recognized it as not one of ours and it was suddenly flying low towards the cottage and he flung me on the ground and put his body over mine and the aircraft flew over and machine gunned us. And it went down the village street machine gunning everything. That was where reality began to kick in and [pause] but there were other happy times. I can remember him telling stories to all the children in the village. And he used to, they used to come into the cottage and he would, he would be in his element. And he had one particular story, “Poor little Betty. Poor little John.” And [pause] he used to say every, every episode of this story ended with, on a big high and the kids would be sitting there and he’d say to them, ‘Now, come tomorrow night. It’s the sad bit tomorrow night. You’ll need two hankies. Everybody bring two hankies because it’s really sad.’ So, there were lots and lots of lovely lovely memories. And during that time dad was looking, after being mostly based at Waddington so he was able to keep an eye on the bakery because he brought into the bakery. Although it was a family based business we were very country people to begin with. And he came in from Newcastle and he was very streetwise and business wise even at an early age and he managed to raise the business up to something much larger. Also, because he was involved with the Bomber Command and his bakery he, he was instrumental in supplying the officer’s mess, the NAAFI with all the bread they needed. Cakes etcetera.
[recording pause]
PY: I’ll just digress for a little while. I did mention earlier that it was the Air Training Corps. Dad would be really quite annoyed with me for saying that because it was actually the Royal Flying Corps.
RY: That’s right.
PY: During this time he was, he became very involved with Bomber Command as the war increased. His duties became more and more involved and he had to let go more of the bakery. We employed bakers in his place. His main duties were with the, he was ground crew but his main duties were the care of stores. The provision of stores for the air crew. His whole life seemed to be devoted to scouring farms, farmers, all local produce whereby they had the best of everything. He was, had a whole network of people with whom he was contacted and the aircrew must have the best food imaginable that was possible at the time. The big thing was when they came back from the raids they all had to have this wonderful breakfast. It was always bacon, eggs. The best of everything. He would be on duty seeing that he was in charge of laying out. The previous night he’d be laying out the breakfast table ready for the aircrew’s return. And he never spoke about it a lot but on a massive raid when so many were killed and he would come home 7 o’clock in the morning and he would just sit with his head in his hands. Just absolute despair that so many had been lost. But of course life had to go on and the next night and the next night it happened again and again. At that time we also got to know the aircrew. Lots of aircrew, very well. They were all part of the village. They would come in to the bakery quite a lot. And I can remember one particular instance a young pilot came in and he had his flying jacket on. And he came in and he was full of laughter and I was a little girl, about seven and he said, ‘Pat, I’ve got something for you.’ And he opened the flying jacket and it was a little kitten. And he said, ‘We’ve been taking it over Germany with us,’ he said, ‘It’s our mascot.’ And then he said, ‘But you never know. Our number could be up any time. We’ve had a good run. So,’ he said, ‘I just want you to look after this little kitten for me, Pat. Until I come back.’ And he put it in my arms. It was a little ginger fluffy kitten. And they never came back. And we kept that kitten and it grew up to be the most awful cat imaginable [laughs] because there was no way that we could [laughs] it had to be honoured all the time because it was special. And about this time,1941 Waddington was really in the thick of the war. There was thousand bomber raids which they took part in. The whole of Lincolnshire was on alert. And nightly the bombers took off from Waddington, coming low over the village with their bomb loads and then a lot of people including my mother would count them as they went out to meet up with other bombers in the area and she would sometimes count them as they came back. And very sadly there was not as many came back of course. In, on the night of May the 9th 1941 it had been an ordinary day in the village. I can remember it so well because my mother had never liked the cottage. She’d never, although she’d lived in it all her life and it sounds romantic, a thatched cottage but she didn’t like it at all. It was the thatch was house not only birds and mice but rats. And the big open inglenook fireplace to her was a firetrap. She was constantly looking for sparks going up to set fire to the thatch. And she used to say, ‘Oh, I’d give anything to have a lovely new place.’ On this particular day the gypsies were — they, they came once a year and they parked at the end of the village and they, they with their caravans and they would walk through the village with their pegs and paper flowers. And my mother distrusted the gypsies very much but they always came into the baker’s shop. And she knew they were coming and so she had — they came in because she gave them yesterday’s cakes or any bread that was left over. So, she knew the gypsies were about and she put them, she put the cakes on the shelf. And I was in the shop helping her. Well, helping. I was there. And the gypsies came down the steps in to the shop. A little jingly bell. It rang. And my mother handed her the buns and the cakes and the gypsy said, ‘Tell your fortune, lady.’ And my mother said, ‘No, thank you.’ All she wanted to do was to get them out the shop. And the gypsy said, ‘You’ve got a kind face, lady. Let me tell your fortune.’ And my mother said, ‘No. No, thank you.’ And as she turned, the gypsy, she said to my mother, ‘You’re going to get a very quick move out of this cottage. Quicker than you’ve ever dreamed of.’ And she went. And a bit later my dad came in. He’d actually been in to Lincoln with a van to get some stuff for the bakery. And he came in and my mother told him what the gypsy had said. And she said, ‘A load of all rubbish.’ And they had a good laugh about it. Also the gypsy said to her, ‘You’ve got a good husband. He’s always buying you things. And he’ll be coming in with something.’ And so my Mum took it with a pinch of salt and dad said to her, ‘Look what I’ve got you.’ And he went into the van and he brought out a Westminster chiming clock. And he’d been to a saleroom or something and he’d got this lovely clock. So, she told him what the gypsy had said. Well, they had a good laugh. That was in the morning. That night, on May the 9th I I don’t, I can remember going to school. Going to the village school that day. But at night she said to me, she was leaning out the cottage window and the moon was enormous and it was over the church. And she said, she couldn’t get into bed because she was looking at the church with the moon over it and she thought what a perfect target for Jerry. And she got into bed and at twenty past twelve a landmine fell right on to the church and it just blew it to pieces. What had stood there for five hundred years, sorry a thousand years was just a heap of rubble. And the landmine it was let down with a parachute. Had it blown just slightly over towards our cottage we would have received a direct hit. As it was the cottage was destroyed. And I can remember my mother waking me up and shaking me and saying, ‘Quick. Get out of bed.’ I think I’d been knocked unconscious with the ceiling falling in. And I looked up and I thought it was the stars I could see but it was the thatch on fire. And I can remember sliding. We just got our nightclothes and we had to get out as quickly as we could. Sliding down the stairs which were covered in thatch. And it was all tumbling and she took my hand and as we went past the living room I can remember saying to her, ‘Who’s that man in front of the window?’ And it wasn’t a man. It was one of the big beams had fallen. These big oak beams had fallen and it was right across the window and she, we didn’t say anything and she’d, she took my hand. She said, ‘Come on. We must get out quick.’ I don’t know where dad was then. I think he’d, I can’t remember but I can remember holding my mother’s hand. She said, ‘Quick. Get out. Quick.’ And we ran in to the yard and everywhere was burning and smoking and we stood there. And I was in my nightie and she was in her nightie and I said to her, ‘I haven’t got anything on my feet.’ [laughs] I could feel all the rubble under my feet. And she didn’t say anything. She just said, ‘There’s no church. The church has gone.’ And it was so unbelievable because the church had been part of the bakery. The cottage life. The bakers used to come out, time everything with the church clock. And she just kept saying, ‘The church has gone.’ And it was just directly opposite. The house had gone. The church had gone. The bakery had gone. Everything. All at once. It was terrible, and but what had happened to my dad was there was a cottage opposite and there was a little boy. He was upstairs and the family had come down and this boy was trapped upstairs. And the cottage was about, the roof was coming in and people were saying, ‘We can’t get in. The roof’s coming in,’ and dad had gone up and he’d got this boy out. And he said even though it was ablaze and the roof was coming in he’d got the boy out. And then we all made our way to the local pub, the Horse and Jockey. But after that it was just chaos for the next few years. Trying to re-establish ourself. Build a home again. Build a business again.
JH: What happened also that same night?
PY: Sorry?
JH: Was your dad called out that same night to another incident?
PY: That same night we, he did manage the bakery van. It was, it was ok. It was in one of the barns and he did manage to get it out. All the tyres were burst and of course the streets were full of rubble. And he managed to get it started and he put my mother and I in it in our nightclothes and he drove us along to Navenby where we knew some people. The people in Navenby had heard the bang of the landmine but because we were so close I didn’t hear a thing. The noise must have gone over. And he had, he left us there and then the next morning at 5 o’clock he had to report to the RAF base because the camp had received several direct hits with bombs. And one air raid shelter containing fifteen WAAFs from the NAAFI had received a direct hit and of course dad worked with all the NAAFI people. The NAAFI girls particular. And he had to help to dig them out. They were all dead. And it was, the air raid shelter itself was reserved just for the NAAFI girls but there were some young airmen had gone in as well. I expect it was just close at hand. And Miss Raven, the head of — the NAAFI manageress, she was in with them. They were all killed. So, that night he not only lost his home, his bakery business but then to, all our possessions and then to have to go the next morning and dig out these poor girls who were his colleagues. Later there was a big club built on the, and it’s still there today, built on the base called the Raven Club in memory of Miss Raven and the NAAFI girls who were killed that night. It’s still there.
[recording pause]
PY: Right. Just go back a bit. I’ve just remembered something else which was quite significant and that was the village school. The infant’s school was adjacent to the churchyard. Sideways on to the road and the windows overlooked the churchyard. And I can remember so often when the funerals from the RAF camp would come down the road. The coffins would be draped and there would be a little band in those days. A trumpet or just some music of some kind. And when there was a funeral due we were not allowed to go out to play. We had to stay in but we could look out of the classroom windows and we could watch the funerals of the pilots and the aircrew. And I can remember at the end of — during the funeral there would be a shot fired over the, over the coffins and there would also be a trumpet sounding. It was all very, very beautifully done but even then very solemn. Very slow and full of ceremony. So, it was, it sounds unreal to say it but it was part of our everyday life to see these very sad moments. Not many relatives there. Sometimes they were foreign pilots as well. After the devastation of the bomb falling we were left without a home and for, I think months, probably a year we were living with various friends and relatives. We lived with an older aunt down at Hykeham. Aunt Em. And she lived in a really really really old fashioned cottage. It had a — you got, you drew your water from a little pump. A pump well in the garden. In the front garden. There was no electricity in the cottage. There was no hot water. It was really really basic and dad found it really hard to live like that so, and he had to get up to the air base each day and he had to bike which was I should say five miles at least. And not only biking up to the airfield he had to keep his, he was trying his best to get the bakery working again. The — it was, it was just, the bake house had been destroyed but he did manage to get tarpaulin over some sort of roof and he had, he managed to get the ovens going so that, you know the bakery could continue in some form. But after a while I can remember he said, ‘We can’t live like this. I’ve bought us a home.’ And it was so unbelievable. Bought us a home. How could he do that? And he said — we went up. We went into the bakery yard and the big gate, the big double gates were open and I can remember a lorry coming along and on the back of it was a green wooden bungalow. A wooden hut. Apex roof. Just basic. Apex roof. And it even had a little veranda. And it had a little sign swinging across the front of the, the front porch, “Ivanhoe.” [laughs] And it was just a basic hut with a apex roof. And he put it in the bakery yard and he said, ‘We’re living there.’ And it was so cosy and it was so wonderful to have this little bungalow as a home and it wasn’t long before he built an extension that side, an extension that side. A bedroom for my grandmother. A bedroom for, a bedroom for grandmother and me. I had to sleep in the same bedroom. And a bedroom for him and mother. And we lived for five years so — probably longer I think. And during that time he managed to get the bakery in some sort of working order. We’d got a home again and then plans were put in to have a new bakery built with what was then called war damage. You got compensation. And, and when towards the end of the war his business began to prosper and grow and when the war ended we moved from the wooden hut, wooden bungalow. Won’t call it a hut because it was very very comfortable and we bought a house in the village. And by that time the business, the bakery business had grown. He’d got a big round in the village. It had grown up at the camp. He was delivering bread to all the villages along the cliffs. The cliff outside Lincoln. He had a round that stretched in to the low fields. We had two shops in Lincoln. So, the village prospered a lot. He even opened a café at the, at the entrance to the airbase. And by that time we’d got the Americans here and he did well with the café. So, all in all he was prospering quite well. The, the change came when the big bakery combines took over and it was like the death knell of the small bakers. It — they, they took such a lot of trade away. Big concerns like Mother’s Pride and other nationally known names. He couldn’t compete in the same way and so he saw the light and he said, ‘Well, we’ll get out while the goings good.’ But I must go back again. He’d been discharged from the RAF because his health had been failing. No doubt brought, brought, caused by some of the stress that he, that he endured and in numerous visits to hospital he was then discharged. So he did, he did well but retired early and enjoyed a more quiet life.
JH: That’s lovely. And there was another incident I believe about your grandmother. Just going back. Was there something you told me about that?
PY: Yes. Going back. This is going back to the cottage. It was rather strange really. Unbelievable how it happened. My grandmother lived in the front part of the cottage. She had a big bedroom and a little room of her own and it was directly over the shop. And it had, that part of the cottage had a brick frontage. It went in from the road, a brick front and into the shop. And my grandmother’s rooms were over there. And when the landmine fell it completely destroyed her half of the cottage. There wasn’t anything left at all. It was just almost as if that part had been hit. It did. Because it was facing the church. It received the full blast of the bomb. Now, my grandmother had never been away from home. Not for a holiday except probably for days at Skegness and this time she wasn’t, she wasn’t in the cottage. My father had taken her up the previous week to spend a week in Newcastle with his mother. The two grandmothers hadn’t really had much time together really at all and they wanted to get to know each other. And so while this, while her part of the cottage was totally destroyed — as a blessing she wasn’t there. And I can remember my father taking us up. He went up to Newcastle. I can’t remember whether we borrowed a van but I can remember going with him. And we went in to my gran, in to the flat where they were staying and, because my father had a key. And the neighbours said, ‘Oh. They’ve both gone to the pictures.’ And I can remember looking out of the window and seeing them both coming around the corner. And my grandmother from Waddington had a, she was a tall lady, she had a fur coat on and a little hat on one side. And they were arm in arm and they looked so happy and you know, cheerful. And dad said, ‘Here they come.’ And he went out and told, told them before they got in to the house. He met them and he told them what had happened. And I can remember my grandmother put her hands over her face and she did cry. But she was alive which she wouldn’t have been if she’d stayed. It was just so strange the way it happened. That she went there and was out of the cottage when it happened. But my mother had never forgotten the gypsy saying, ‘You’ll get a— ’ we often used to talk about it, ‘You will move from this cottage. You’ll have a quicker move than you’ve ever dreamed of.’
JH: Ok. Well, I’d like to thank you Pat for allowing me to record this interview today. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Patricia Young
Creator
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Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AYoungP160518, PYoungP1601
Format
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00:31:28 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Patricia’s family lived in a 500 year old thatched cottage in Waddington. There was a bakery in the grounds, which had been started by her grandparents. Patricia’s father joined the Royal Flying Corp and one of her earliest memories was of him digging out a base for an air raid shelter. He was mainly based at RAF Waddington as ground personnel, and provided and cared for the stores. Patricia remembered the time when a young pilot asked her to look after the crew’s mascot kitten. He never returned. One night the church next door to their cottage was destroyed by a land mine and the family had to quickly move out of the cottage as it too had caught fire. The next morning a shelter at the base had been hit, killing fifteen Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes girls. She recalled other incidents during her father’s time in the Royal Air Force before he was discharged through failing health.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1941-05-09
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
aircrew
animal
bombing
ground crew
ground personnel
home front
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
pilot
RAF Waddington
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/615/8884/PNeechPRR1601.2.jpg
b18dcb33ac05d88b974e6778658b17de
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/615/8884/ANeechPRR161013.2.mp3
b4f50aafc08ff7c8b4aba0c7ac356bbc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Neech, Peter Rowland Ruthven
P R R Neech
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Neech, PRR
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Peter Neech (b.1925, 1851518 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a with 75 and 98 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2016-10-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Peter Neech today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s digital archive. We’re at Mr Neech’s home and it is the 13th of October 2016. Thank you, Peter for agreeing to talk to me today. Peter can you tell me when and where you were born?
PN: Yes, I was born in London, West Hampstead actually on the 7th of January 1925. And that’s quite a long time ago. [laughs]
JH: That’s right. And what about your family and your early years sort of thing?
PN: Yes, well I had a mother and father there you see. My father was in the first world war and he was trained as a marine engineer and then like all young fellows he decided that he would far rather be a dispatch rider and got on a motor bike. He was flying about the trenches, all over that kind of thing. That was his - although he was trained as a marine engineer he did – he’d rather would do the motor bike bit. So that’s what he did and he came through the war alright. Yes, he did alright. Now –
JH: Where?
PN: Going forward to my years, I suppose if I were to – I think about 1940. I was working in a jeweller’s shop in Hammersmith. And the manager’s son came in one day and he said ‘Oh,’ he said ‘I’ve done it now’ he said ‘I’ve really gone and done it. I’ve joined the Air Training Corps’ or the Air Defence Cadet Corps as it was then. He said ‘I’m really in it’. I heard that and thought I’m going to join that too. So, I promptly looked around near home and I joined the Air Training Corps as it was then as well. And I served in that for two or three years until 1943. And on my birthday in 1943, 7th of January, I went along and I joined the air force. I was eighteen and I joined the air force then. And I was called up some six or seven months later. And did my training in various places, ITW, Initial Training Wings and then finally –
JH: Where was that, Initial Training Wing, where was that?
PN: Initial Training, believe it or not it was at St John’s Wood. It wasn’t the Initial Training Wing there it was, oh what was the name of the place? It was in St John’s Wood in the various flats that were there, luxurious flats that were there. And they took great precautions to see they didn’t get mucked up. At a reception centre, aircrew reception centre, that’s what it was called. And we were there for two or three weeks something like that, got uniform and things of that sort. And then we were moved then to a reception centre, where was it called? Oh, I think it was at – well we went onto various places like beginning to train, oh yes at Bridgnorth down in Shropshire. And there we started, started, although we didn’t fly down there we did do some training, aircrew training down there. And that was three or four weeks down there. It was rather, it was rather strange. We didn’t have sheets to sleep in we just had blankets and I got well and truly bitten by little buggy wugs. And had to go, I went to sick quarters to get treated for this. And he made sure that I was lathered in a thick coating of sulphur ointment and uniform on top of that. Most uncomfortable. [emphatic] I was straight out of there went home, I was not too far from home, went home, took, changed my uniform for my best uniform and the rest went in the laundry. And there they stayed until they got cleared of all the sulphur, sulphur ointment. I never went back near them again. [laughs] And from Bridgnorth I then went on a very long train journey, Bridgnorth down in Shropshire, right up to just outside of Inverness. Which was a long time. And that was at, the place was called Dalcross. And it was an Initial Gunnery School. And it took us quite – it was a troop train and as such we didn’t get changed – we didn’t change trains at all. We stayed on that one train and I thought ‘Right monkey, I’ll get some sleep on here’. And I made sure I got up into the luggage rack and had a good old sleep for most of the time. [laughs] Anyway, we arrived at Dalcross railway station and there the, there was a corporal there to shepherd us up into the local station, RAF station at Dalcross. No er, all just any kind of marching, no smartness at all there, just a shambles going into that station. But that was alright. Some six weeks later we were marched down there very much in line and very much drilled, having been taught how to drill properly. And indeed, how to deal with guns. And it was very nice we passed out there as sergeants. And the local WAAF’s on the station were very kind they sewed, carefully sewed, our stripes and our brevets on our uniforms. That was very kind, we would have made a right old mess of it. But they did it and they did it kindly for us. And that corporal who had marched us carefully up to the station, we marched him round the parade ground. He was a corporal, we were sergeants and we chased him round the parade ground at a very good march. And then we marched him down to the railway station too when we went away. And so we went back to our next station which was in, er not Andover, not very far from London in fact I went to London. I was able to go home for a day or so because we were going there. And going back I went from Bakers Street to this station where this – it was, what was it? An ITW, no not ITW. Was a training station anyway onto Wellington aircraft. And it wasn’t a very long railway journey and I met a very good friend on that journey, Pat Butler. And he – I’ve got a picture of him there somewhere. He was a very good – we got on great friends, we became great friends. He went onto the same squadron as me. We went onto the Initial Training Wings and various training wings and we went onto the same squadron together. And the third trip that we did was laying sea mines in Kiel Canal. And we got a bit damaged and had to retire. We got one engine shot out and this engine was the one that supplied power to the gun turrets. We turned – we dropped our mines, laid our mines, but we then moved away and went back home.
JH: What aeroplanes were you flying?
PN: There we were flying Stirlings.
JH: Right.
PN: Yes, we were flying Stirlings there and we went back, back to our station at Westcott. Westcott, that’s what it was called. Anyway, Pat Butler I’m afraid he, a fighter ‘plane caught them and shot them down and they were all killed. Great pity only a third operation. Um, so I was very sad to see that. Quite funny we were in the same barrack block. In the same Nissen hut it was actually together. He was in one corner. And they had a firm called, air force people, called the Committee of Adjustments, yeah. And these, this Committee of Adjustments whenever anyone was shot down or killed or anything like that they used to come round and collect up all their kit and put it into stores. They collected up his kit and mine too! And it took me several days to get my uniforms back again because I was sleeping in the corner near enough to his bed, so they collected up his stuff and mine too. [laughs] Well, I was very cross with them for that but anyway I got the stuff back eventually. And from there we went onto Stradishall. Yes, now come to think of it the aircraft that we had been flying in until then were Wellington aircraft, and not Stirlings. Was about to say we weren’t on Stirlings until we went to Stradishall. When we went to Stradishall that was when we went onto the Stirlings, the heavy bombers, four engined. And that was the time when I’d got somewhere to go, I got a mid-upper gun turret and that was alright. On the Wellingtons of course there was no mid-upper gun turret.
JH: So what position were you on a Wellington?
PN: Pardon?
JH: Where did you fit into a Wellington?
PN: In the middle of the fuselage. Nowhere much to go except to look out of the bits, the astra dome, things like that, just to keep myself amused. But there we are, as I say we went onto eventually onto the squadrons and they were flying Stirlings then and it was on Stirlings that Pat Butler got killed. It was a shame, only on his third operation. I went onto do – I did a complete tour there and somehow or another they managed to – a tour of operations was thirty operations. Somehow or another they managed to craftily get me on and I did thirty-one. I don’t know I managed, they managed to do that but they did. And they asked me, we’d just come back from a bombing raid and while I was coming away from the aircraft they asked me if I’d like to continue on that same squadron. And after I’d done an eight hour bombing mission I told them where to – what I thought of them. And I did, I got posted away. [chuckles] So I went to another place then and then I went onto North American Mitchells which was a twin engined bomber. There I think that’ll keep you busy for a while, I’ll give you some more a little later on. Yes, that’s how we did it and it was on those five that we were doing on the Stirlings, the third one was when Pat Butler was shot down and he, and all his crew, were killed. And that was a shame.
JH: And after those five you went on?
PN: And after those five I went onto Lancasters and we did converting onto Lancasters at Feltwell and did it all in one day. Day and night the conversion onto the Lancasters. Then we came back and we carried on our tour. But I’d done about five or six on the Lancasters when we were flying along one evening when an aircraft flying fairly close to us just blew up. He just blew up without any warning at all and rocketed us all over the sky. We went up topsy-turvy all over the sky. And eventually my skipper, he was a very good skipper, managed to put it into a bit of a dive. And from that dive he could pull us out. And he pulled us out at ten thousand feet. So, we had lost ten thousand feet and he pulled us out and climbed back up to the twenty thousand which was our normal operating height. And then we went on and did our, that particular bombing mission. Yes, I don’t know –
JH: Did you ever know who, which ‘plane it was that blew up? Did you ever know who they were?
PN: No I didn’t, no.
JH: No. Or why?
PN: No, well I suppose they got hit by anti-aircraft fire. And probably if it hit the bomb, bomb loads, it would blow up.
JH: Yes.
PN: Yeah, yes, it was er – it really sent us all over the sky. But as I say my skipper was a very good skipper and he eventually put it into a low dive and from that dive he could pull us out. He could work it out, and we then climbed back up to our normal height again, operating height again. But after that I went to – when we’d landed, a day or two later I thought ‘I must have some wax in my ears I think, I’ll go and get them syringed out at the medical centre.’ I hadn’t got wax in my ears, no. I’d got cracked eardrums. And the doctor – I went just to get the wax out of them. But he said ‘Oh you’ve got cracked eardrums.’ And I spent two weeks or more in hospital, Ely Hospital, and then some time in a local health centre not very far from Ely Hospital. I can’t remember their name now but it was an old English country house sort of thing. Used – it had been taken over by the RAF and people we used to recover from various injuries there. And I was there for two or three weeks and then went back. But of course my crew carried on their time and at the end of that tour they carried on and they’d finished their tour some five odd trips before me. And I had to finish my tour with one or two other people, other skippers. And that was a bit of a nuisance. Because my crew, my original crew, then went on to rest period and I had to carry on flying. That’s, I suppose that’s how I got my, how I did the thirty-one operations instead of the thirty because of a bit of a mix up on the number.
JH: And then you had leave after?
PN: Then I had some leave yes.
JH: What did you do?
PN: I didn’t have much leave. About two or three weeks or something like that. End of tour leave. And then I went back again and eventually, oh I did instructing for a while. I went up funnily enough back up to Dalcross as a flying instructor. And you usually did six months as a flying instructor. I made sure that I counted the – I went there at the end of a particular month and I counted that whole month. And I, and there’s the beginning of another month just after Christmas. I counted that as a whole month so in fact I did four months rest period but it counted as six. And then I went back on flying again and I went back onto 98 Squadron which was a North American Mitchell squadron.
JH: Where was that based?
PN: They were based initially in Norfolk and then we went across to France, just outside of Brussels and then up into Germany. Up to a station in Germany near Osnabruck, there, Osnabruck, near Osnabruck. And it was then soon after that that the war terminated.
JH: So, did you fly with any of your, you know, former mates from the other crews, did you fly with them again?
PN: No, I didn’t see – but on the North American Mitchells I did a further seventeen bombing missions. So that made a total around about forty, forty-eight bombing missions I did altogether. Which was quite a lot. And on one of them going to a place called Bremen we were quite near a flak explosion, quite near to us. And when we got back I hadn’t, fortunately hadn’t used my guns on that particular operation. When we got back the armourer came up to me and he said ‘Would you like to keep this souvenir?’ and it was one of the cases, one of the round cases which was fed up by a belt quite near to me and it had got a nice little hole in it. And he said ‘We’ve taken the explosives out,’ he said ‘You’re lucky it didn’t explode’ because the metal, the flak that hit it was white hot and melted. He showed me the piece of flak and it had brass on one side melted onto it and the iron of the flak shell on the other side. And so it had melted that case, that brass case of the ammunition onto the flak and there – so it must have been very, very hot indeed. I was lucky it came to me as near to me, and I was lucky I didn’t get a little bit closer to that I’m glad to say. And the, as I say the armourer came to me later and said ‘Would you like this case?’ with the flak inside it. It was a big hole, I’ve got it still and he gave it to me. Unfortunately, a number of years later my, one of my sons looked at that shell case and the little bit of flak which was inside it rattled and he thought ‘That’s all very interesting’ and the little bit of metal, the flak, he looked at that and then put it in the ashtray and it got thrown out. I didn’t know for a month or so later that it had been thrown out. And it is a real piece of the interest story of that but it’s a pity, but it was gone. I searched for it but I couldn’t find it. Well, lost that. I’ve got the case, the shell case still but I’ve lost the piece of flak that would fill it which was a shame.
JH: Of all the aircraft that you actually flew in did you have a preference for any of the aircraft that you were in?
PN: Did I?
JH: Did you prefer one aircraft to another, did you like?
PN: Oh well I would have preferred the Lancaster.
JH: Ah.
PN: Yes, the Lancaster. The Stirling was quite good. It was bigger in fact I think, bit bigger than the Lancaster and we had some quite interesting do’s in them I must agree. Mainly going to Kiel and places like that. And we went down one time to where was it? Went to the South of France on a bombing mission laying sea mines. Yes, I’d have to look in my logbook and see where we went to on those places.
JH: You had some –
PN: Coming back from that place, La Rochelle, La Rochelle. It was a tributary of a river there and we laid our sea mines in there and we came back, and we by a little bit of a mistake I must agree, we came a little bit close to the point of Brest. The part of France Brest. And it was in German hands and they opened up all kinds of fire against us so we promptly put our guns over the side and fired back at them. They shut up quick. They shut – the firing immediately stopped and we went a little bit further out to sea. And came back home that way. But they, it’s funny to see that they fired several shots at us, going out as we came past Brest, and the moment we started firing back at them they packed up at once, and went quiet, very quiet.
JH: You must have had quite, quite a few near misses?
PN: Um [emphatic] yes.
JH: Yes.
PN: Oh yes.
JH: Do you remember any others in particular, do you remember?
PN: Now did I? Yes. One of the last ones. Well of course, I told you about that one. He was going, a friend of mine who wrote the poetry he was going to a place called Darmstadt. And that was fairly near to where I was going at – it’s in my logbook too – down by the South, the South of France. I’ll look it up in my logbook soon and tell you what it was. And we got quite a bit of a hammering there too. Um, I forget the – of course it’s seventy odd years ago you see, it is a long time to remember these things. I will look it up, I’ll tell you later on.
JH: So really it must have been quite difficult?
PN: Yes.
JH: Having to go back up all the time?
PN: Yes, it was but I didn’t particularly bother about it, it was part of the job that I was doing. But we did have fighters come after us a number of times and we used to employ an evasion method called a corkscrew. And a corkscrew, we used to fly into the direction of the fighter and lose about a thousand foot. And then we’d roll over to the other side and drop another thousand foot. And then we’d climb a thousand foot, and roll and climb another thousand foot. And by that time that fighter was long gone. So, our corkscrew did us the world of good. So, we didn’t have to bother too much with corkscrews a lot. That was our normal tactic for getting out of fighter, fighter attacks.
JH: Could all ‘planes do that are was it only?
PN: Oh yes.
JH: All of them, it was standard?
PN: It was a known tactic. It was a known tactic that aircraft could go into a corkscrew, yeah.
JH: What is your experience really of being in the mid-upper turret, you know what was that like to be in that particular position?
PN: Yes, it was quite cold. It was – we used to go there and the outside – there was only a thin – the turret had perspex, a perspex cupola and that was only very thin that perspex. And outside was a temperature of minus forty, something like that, it was quite cold. But we went – while I was doing normal, not an evasion tactic, but we did what we called dinghy drill. Learning how to get into a dinghy quickly if we were shot down over the sea. And to do that we went to a local swimming pool at Newmarket. And while there you dressed up in flying clothing, very – most likely it was flying clothing that the, a crew had used a few minutes ago, and it was soaking wet and cold. But I’d noted that the helmet was one of the old type helmets with the zip earpieces, and it was my head that used to get cold with the thin helmets, flying helmets that we normally had. So, a little case of swapping went on there. And I came away with a heavier, heavier helmet, which I promptly cleaned up and laundered and the – ‘cause it was quite dirty inside really. But I laundered it and polished the brass and I had to resew some of the straps on, the hooks on because they were in the wrong position for my oxygen mask and things like that. But I did all that and very snug and very comfortable helmet I got out of it. And you could, if you could see me on a dark night you’d see a smile on my face that all the cold outside I was nice and warm in that helmet. I’ve still got that helmet, yes. So, I had done some thirty-one operations on the Stirlings and Lancasters. And then another sixteen or seventeen on North American Mitchells. And that made quite a total. About forty-seven, forty-eight, forty-eight operations. Quite a lot. Quite good fun, quite good fun.
JH: And how did you feel about being in the war, was it?
PN: Well it was – I lived in London of course you see. I lived in London until 1943 when I joined the air force. And we were often very well bombed. In fact, I remember when I came home, when I first passed out as a sergeant air gunner, that I came, got a taxi because I’d got quite hefty kit bags. I thought ‘I can’t get on buses and things with those’ so I got a taxi home. And he stopped at one place and I waited for a minute, ‘What have you stopped here for?’ he said ‘Well this is where you wanted to be isn’t it?’ And I looked out and it was. My house a bit dented, a bit well and truly dented. Had bombs near it and had got quite well damaged. But my people, my father and mother, they were all right. Of course, they’d been a bit shaken up by all that but they survived it all right. And I saw that things were all right. And that’s when I went back onto flying operations again.
JH: Did you hear a lot about Bomber Harris you know?
PN: Oh yes, he was a –
JH: Yes.
PN: Yes, Butch, we called him Butch. Butch Harris, yeah. Yes, we thought he was a great man, a very good man. He was well appreciated and his trips that he put us on.
JH: Would he visit your base, your squadrons at all or?
PN: I never saw him no.
JH: You didn’t see him?
PN: I didn’t see him. We did get some people you know quite high up, high up ranks come and visit the station at times but they never came to see us as well. They, would often talk to people up in the front like the pilot and navigators but they never came down towards the tail end. Never talked to the mere gunners oh no. [laughs] Probably wasn’t designed, they probably didn’t think about it. But I couldn’t care, I wouldn’t bother really about that. So, there it is. And as I say I came out in 1946 something like that and a friend that I’d had at home for a long, long time we had decided that when the war was over we would start up a small restaurant, that kind of business. And so, I came out and I worked in hotels for quite a while, for several years. A particular one was Grosvenor House in Park Lane. Yes, I worked in the kitchens there. And then I got a little bit tired. Well you worked from early morning, you had a break in the afternoon, and then you worked at night again until about two or three in the morning. And eventually after doing that for about three or four years I got tired of that, I went back into the air force. And though I went back as a sergeant air gunner and a gunnery instructor so I was quite happy about that. And I spent several more years in the air force then.
JH: Where were you based then in the air force?
PN: Then, where was I? I can’t remember the places. Well, we went into – I forget the name but we did some flying for – I was a gunnery instructor there, we did gunnery instructing. I think up in Scotland somewhere. I think we did some training, you know training gunners up there, who were being trained as gunners. And eventually I came down, eventually I came out of the air force and settled down.
JH: What ‘planes were you flying then, when you were training then up there?
PN: Ah yes, I was flying Shackletons, Shackletons. When I started with them you know they had two forward wheels and the tail was down on the floor. But afterwards a little later on they became tri-planes and they had all three wheels at the front and they were flying on the three wheels you know, they landed on the three wheels, much better aircraft. Shackelton III and we did quite a bit of gunnery training on the Shackletons and they were quite nice. Yes, well that’s taken you over a whole few years.
JH: It has.
PN: 1950’s.
JH: Yes, and did you actually keep in touch with any of the crew after the war?
PN: No.
JH: No?
PN: No, never saw them again.
JH: Didn’t see them?
PN: Of course, they went back to New Zealand see.
JH: Of course.
PN: Mind, later on I did meet up with my skipper’s daughter. In fact I’ve got some pictures of her there. She was a nice girl and she came and stayed with us one time. And I’ve got a picture, several pictures of her there in my casings there. You can have a look at them some time when you’re ready.
JH: What did your skipper do then after the war, she obviously told you?
PN: Oh, I don’t know.
JH: She didn’t say?
PN: Don’t know what he did.
JH: No?
PN: But not very long afterwards unfortunately his wife died.
JH: Right.
PN: And later, little later on he died as well. In fact, I’m the only one of the crew now alive.
JH: Right.
PN: All – they were as I say, when I joined them they were all in their thirties. So, they were about fifteen years older than me so they therefore of course they didn’t last so long. Now I’ve got a picture here. A book here – my logbook, my flying logbook. And there’s even – when we were flying in Germany we did a flypast for the Russian leader [rustling] a General Zhukov, and there’s a picture of General Zhukov. [rustling]
JH: September 1945.
PN: Yes.
JH: So that was at the surrender?
PN: Yes, yes we did a flypast for him. That was in the North American Mitchells I think. [rustling]
JH: I’d like to thank you Peter for allowing me to record this interview today, so thank you very much.
PN: That’s OK, my pleasure.
JH: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Rowland Ruthven Neech
Creator
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Judy Hodgson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANeechPRR161013
PNeechPRR1601
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:44:34 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Description
An account of the resource
Peter was born in London and his home suffered bomb damage during the war. He served in the Air Training Corps until joining the Royal Air Force in 1943. After reporting to the Aircrew Reception Centre at St John’s Wood, he spent a few weeks at RAF Bridgnorth. Peter then went to the Air Gunnery School at RAF Dalcross. This was followed by RAF Westcott, a training station on Wellington aircraft. Peter flew in Stirling aircraft at RAF Stradishall where he had a mid-upper gun turret unlike in the Wellingtons. He worked as an instructor for four months at RAF Dalcross before joining 98 Squadron on North American Mitchells. He was initially based in Norfolk but then went near Brussels and Osnabrück.
Peter carried out a tour of 31 operations on Stirlings and Lancasters, followed by 17 operations on North American Mitchells.
Peter recounts a few incidents from his tours, describes the corkscrew evasion method and how he coped with the cold in the mid-upper turret. They held a positive view of Arthur Harris.
Although he left the RAF in 1946, Peter returned as a sergeant air gunner and gunnery instructor. He flew in Shackletons.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
75 Squadron
98 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-25
bombing
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
military service conditions
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Dalcross
RAF Stradishall
RAF Westcott
Shackleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/490/8374/PChineryDR1601.1.jpg
24ea6131656a7cc40953bc11c4d29e72
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/490/8374/AChineryDR160824.1.mp3
a0e263be47ec05ddaa15883d376f78fa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Chinery, Donald
Donald Robert Chinery
D R Chinery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Chinery, DR
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Donald Chinery (1921 - 2017, 1465877 Royal Air Force) his log book, and the log book of J Millar. Donald Chinery flew operations as an air gunner with 61 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Pam Winter and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Don Chinery today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mr Chinery’s home, and it is the 24th August 2016. Thank you, Donald, for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Roger Winter, Don’s son-in-law, and Pam Winter, his daughter.
JH: Don, can you tell me when and where you were born, and something of your family and early years before the war? Can you tell me when you were born?
PW: When were you born?
DC: Well, I was in a little village called Upper Sheringham, that was just up the hill from Sheringham.
JH: And what date? What’s your birth date? Your birth date?
DC: If I told you, you’d know as much as I do [laughs].
RW: Give it a try, Don!
DC: 14th of August 1921, that was when I was born.
PW: He knows!
JH: And what did you do before the war? What were you doing before the war?
DC: Would you believe it, I was a baker.
RW: At Lushes, Lushes in Sheringham.
DC: Lushes at Sheringham which was right on the corner of [unclear] Street.
RW: And they had a tea room, didn’t they? Lushes Bakery and tea room.
DC: Yeah.
JH: OK, and did you have family at home, did you have brothers or sisters?
DC: I’ve got 2 brothers and 2 sisters.
JH: Were they in the family business?
DC: I don’t know where they are now, mind you.
JH: No, so you were the only one who was the baker? You were the only baker?
DC: Yeah, when I left school.
JH: Right.
DC: That was what I straightaway went to do.
JH: And so how old were you when you joined the war?
DC: When I joined the Air Force?
JH: Yes.
DC: Oh, I dunno, 20-odd?
RW: Yes, what year did you join?
DC: I joined in, er [pause], once I got in the air.
RW: No, this is only your flying, when did you actually join the RAF?
DC: I joined in 1960.
RW: No.
DC: 60 something.
RW: No, it would’ve been 1939, 1940?
DC: In 1940, I reckon, I joined up in 1942.
RW: Right.
DC: I reckon it was.
RW: Yep, and what did you do when you first joined up?
DC: [laughing] Got up to anything I could!
JH: Where did you do your training?
DC: I was trained the right way.
RW: Yeah.
JH: Where did you do your training?
RW: Where was your first station? Where was your first aerodrome?
DC: My first aerodrome was in Norfolk, RAF station Bircham Newton.
RW: Yes? Oh, North Norfolk, North Norfolk near King’s Lynn.
DC: I forget, it was in North Norfolk.
RW: Yeah, near King’s Lynn, near King’s Lynn.
DC: Yeah, next door. Just over the border actually.
RW: Yep, yep.
JH: And what did you do there? What did you do at that station?
DC: What did I do?
JH: Yes, what were you doing there?
DC: Like everybody else, nothing [unclear] [laughs].
RW: But was it basic training, was it? Basic training?
DC: Yeah [pause], I had several different aerodromes I was on, I forget half of them.
RW: Yeah quite. So what did you do before you became an aircrew?
DC: Well I was just an ordinary AC plonk, and I volunteered then for -
RW: Aircrew.
DC: Aircrew [pause].
RW: Yeah, so that’s early in ’43 then, [pause] so your first log entry is in August ’43? August 1943? [pause]. Up in an Anson, an old Anson?
DC: An old Anson.
RW: Yeah, yeah?
DC: I remember [unclear], I can.
RW: When you were flying in a Stirling. When you were flying in a Stirling.
DC: When I was flying.
RW: Stirling, the Stirling Bomber.
DC: Yeah.
RW: What happened?
DC: Bloody old thing!
RW: What happened?
DC: I got out of it.
RW: What happened before that?
DC: Well, [unclear] the old Stirling?
RW: Yeah, you were coming in to land with the Stirling.
DC: Well, come in, just touched down, and the undercarriage just packed up. So it landed, finished up on its belly and we finished up in somebody’s cabbage patch! Is that what you were getting at?
RW: Yeah, and did you go over - it went straight over the A10 I think, didn’t you?
DC: Yeah [pause], er, I had some good times.
RW: Yep, and was the aeroplane OK after that? Was the aeroplane OK?
DC: Yeah, apart from the undercarriage [laughs].
RW: It says in your log book you wrecked it, wrecked the aeroplane it says here.
DC: Yeah [pause] bits and pieces, here and there [laughs].
RW: Are there any other?
JH: What positions was he in, in that airplane?
RW: Where were you in the aeroplane?
DC: Where was I when? When it went down?
RW: Yeah, when you were flying.
DC: I was rear gunner, what was known as ‘Tail End Charlie’ [laughs].
RW: Where - so when you done your training, you then went straight to 61 Squadron?
DC: No, I was at, er -
RW: 196 Squadron? 196?
DC: 196 Squadron, yeah, that was at Waterbeach.
RW: Right, ok, and then from Waterbeach, you went onto 61 Squadron?
DC: Yeah.
RW: OK. What was it like being on an operational squadron for the first time?
DC: Bit scary.
RW: And you met lots of new friends?
DC: [unclear] Bit scary when I got onto squadron work, I mean before you got on a squadron, you was doing square bashing out here and yonder [pause].
RW: Yeah, so there was nobody shooting back at you then? There was nobody shooting back at that time before then?
DC: [laughs].
RW: Hmm, can you remember your first operational trip?
DC: My first operational – I think it was [pause],[unclear], I don’t remember which me first was .
RW: Schweinfurt? Schweinfurt?
DC: Schweinfurt, that’s it yeah.
RW: Ball-bearing factory, ball-bearing factory [emphasis].
DC: Skellingthorpe.
RW: Right, and you had some bombs catching fire on that trip? Your log, it says you had some incendiaries on fire, do you remember?
DC: Oh, I forget all that.
RW: Right [pause], can you remember the rest of the crew?
DC: I can remember the- er mid-upper gunner as though it was yesterday.
RW: What was his name?
DC: His name was Miller, Jimmy, Jimmy Miller and we had a terrible time one day, and we got diverted, and we got diverted up Scotland, a little place called Ayr, and ‘course we got – we got stuck there with the weather. And Jimmy Miller, my mid-upper gunner, he originated from Motherwell, which was just down the road from where we were diverted to, so of course we got stuck there and he asked if he could go home, ‘cause he only lived down the road, he said from here to Motherwell and they said ‘yes’. And I shall never forget his old father, the old man, we sat in a pub in Motherwell, couldn’t have knocked a pint back, Jimmy, I said to mid-upper gunner, the old fella looked at me and said [adopts Scottish accent] ‘Jimmy don’t drink’ ‘cause I had [unclear] quick. I said ‘no, he don’t drink anything alcoholic – I like a pint meself’, I said, ‘he’ll always have a glass of lemonade [unclear]’, the old man looked and said [adopts Scottish accent], ‘I’ll tek you doon ma clog’ so he took us to his Working Man’s Club, took old boy as well – Jimmy.
RW: How old was Jimmy at the time? How old would Jimmy be?
DC: He was my mid-upper gunner.
RW: Yeah, how old would he be, mid, early twenties?
DC: Same age as me.
RW: Right.
DC: Round about, you know, give or take a week or two. I shall never forget his old father, [adopts Scottish accent] ‘Jimmy don’t drink!’ [laughs].
RW: So did he buy Jimmy a beer?
DC: I think it was a long and straight one! ‘He don’t drink any alcohol’, I said, ‘I love a pint meself’, I says, ‘he’ll always have a glass of lemonade’. Old fella looked, ‘I’ll drink him down the club’, he says [laughs], so he took us down the Working Man’s Club, bought me a pint (which I loved) and he bought [laughs] a glass of lemonade for Jimmy!
RW: What did Jimmy say afterwards?
DC: Well, what did he call me afterwards, Jimmy [laughs], I’d hate to repeat his words!
JH: Did you play darts? Darts, in the pub? Did you play darts in the pub?
DC: Did I [unclear] play anything
RW: What
DC: I shall never forget that pub in Waterbeach
RW: In Waterbeach?
DC: Yeah, when I was stationed there. Went in this pub and [pause] ordered what I wanted to drink, [unclear] we was up Scotland at the time. Our man looked at me and said ‘Jimmy don’t drink?’ I can imagine him saying it now. ‘Course I had [unclear], I’d like a pint meself and he’ll always have a glass of lemonade, ginger beer. Old fella says ‘I’ll take you down me club’ and he took us down the Working Man’s Club. He bought me a pint and he got a glass of lemonade for Jimmy.
RW: Are there any of the Operations you done that really stand out? Are there any of the Operations that really stand out to you?
DC: You had all sorts of courses that you had to go through before you really started on Operations, but I shall never forget that time we went up Scotland.
RW: Are there any of the raids that particularly you remember?
DC: Remember?
RW: Any of the trips you did?
DC: Did I remember any [unclear] trips I done?
RW: Well, you got one here where you were badly shot up.
DC: Practically remember them all .
RW: Mmm, yeah, and is this the one where you couldn’t get over Beachy Head? When you’d been to Toulouse?
DC: Where?
RW: Toulouse? In France.
DC: Yeah, we didn’t mind them little trips, we always reckoned we got an easy one if we got a little trip over – just over Channel
RW: Yeah [pause] Do you remember having a collision over the target? Do you remember here you had a collision?
DC: That one, yeah.
RW: In France again, in Tours.
DC: [unclear] mess up then [pause].
JH: What happened?
RW: Can you remember what happened?
DC: No.
RW: Right, but you bent the aeroplane it says in your Log Book. It says you bent the aeroplane.
DC: Er, when I finished up in the allotments.
RW: Yeah [whispers] different one [pause].
DC: In the middle of these allotments and they sent a bloody tractor out.
RW: Right.
DC: An old-fashioned tractor.
RW: That was at Waterbeach?
DC: Yeah, and they hooked us up and pulled us off his cabbage patch [pause].
RW: Do you remember getting diverted to Exeter?
DC: No, we got diverted to Exeter didn’t we.
RW: Yeah, do you remember that?
DC: Yeah [pause] but I told you the one at Waterbeach was the best [unclear].
RW: [laughs] Right.
JH: Did you see Jimmy Miller?
DC: I was once at the bar and he [unclear] the other.
JH: Oh right.
DC: And I was well known at this pub and they says ‘tell you what, you can’t pull a pint from where you are’, ‘I know I can’t but I can still get one and I’m going to pull one, I’m gonna lean over the counter and put the pump’, I says, ‘I’m going to push it, I’m gonna push one’ and that’s the only time I remember pushing a pint.
RW: What – can you remember the first time you went to Berlin?
DC: First time I went to Berlin, can I remember?
RW: Yeah.
DC: No I can’t, not offhand.
RW: But would you have been apprehensive about going? Going all that distance? It was a long way to go wasn’t it?
DC: It what?
RW: A long flight.
DC: Yeah, I shall never forget Jimmy’s father, I shall [unclear] old fella [adopts Scottish accent] ‘Jimmy don’t drink’. No, no Jimmy didn’t drink, he’d drink me under the table.
JH: When you went up in the aeroplane, was it cold? Were you cold?
DC: That was bloody cold [laughs].
JH: Right.
DC: [unclear] when you got all your flying gear on, you got, er, an inner suit which was, er, more silk than anything, then you got another one on top o’ that, and then you got another one on top and you finished off you’d got about five layers of clothes on before you got all your flying gear on.
JH: And you were still cold, still cold?
DC: Bloody cold [laughs].
RW: He reckons his flying helmet made him bald! Is that right? Your flying helmet caused you to lose your hair.
DC: That’s what took me hair away.
PW: There’s a picture of him and my mum getting married there somewhere and he hadn’t got much hair then!
RW: He was the only one in the family with no hair!
PW: He’s still got more than you, Rog!
RW: No comment! Can you remember anything about D-Day? Can you remember about the trips you did on D-Day?
DC: D-Day?
RW: Yes.
DC: I don’t remember D-Day, I remember VJ-Day.
RW: Yes, but on D-Day you were involved in two Operations and it must’ve been very busy with all the ships landing and lots of noise, ships firing salvos. Can you remember anything?
DC: No.
RW: No? [pause]
JH: What do you remember then, do you remember VJ – VJ Day?
DC: [unclear] of equipment, I was [unclear] when we was getting demobbed they was asking for different things and you just sat them on the counter and pushed them to one side and when it come to the Log Book, I slapped mine on the counter and instead of pushing it over the counter. I pushed it back and it dropped in me kit bag.
RW: Is that how you managed to get Jimmy’s as well. You got Jimmy’s Log Book as well. You got Jimmy Miller’s Log Book as well. So did you do the same with Jimmy? [pause].
RW: He’s got no idea how he got it.
PW: No, he’s never sort of said.
DC: He has [unclear] Jimmy Miller
JH: Why, why have you got his book? Why have you [emphasis] got that?
DC: I haven’t got his book.
RW: No, you’ve got his Log Book.
DC: This was his.
RW: Yes.
JH: Why have you got it?
DC: Well, it was a souvenir as far as I was concerned and remembers old Jimmy Miller.
RW: Yes.
DC: ‘Cause he was, he was.
JH: Your friend.
DC: He was a good mate o’ mine [pause] and I told you when he took me home, I shall never forget that.
PW: So he obviously died then.
JH: Did you see Jimmy after the war? Jimmy, did Jimmy see you after the war?
DC: I lost all touch wi’ him.
JH: You lost touch?
DC: Yeah.
RW: Shame.
JH: He went back to Scotland! [laughs].
DC: [unclear] lost – lost touch with one another [pause], but there was just this – I remember this – old Jimmy Miller [pause].
RW: Can you remember the trip you did in the, in the [pause] -
DC: Old Jimmy Miller.
RW: Yeah.
DC: Never forget him.
RW: Do you remember the trip you did after the – after hostilities had finished you went on a sight-seeing tour, you took a Wimpey with Flying Officer Ratcliffe and you went on a sight-seeing tour, to Cologne? And you took ground crew I think, did you? Did you take some ground crew with you?
JH: Do you remember? [pause]
RW: The top one [pause].
PW: Has he got his magnifying glass?
DC: They – they was er trips we done after hostilities ceased, we took any member of ground crew and then let them go over and see the -
RW: What had happened?
DC: Devastation and so forth.
RW: And you took a photograph of Cologne Cathedral didn’t you? [pause}.
DC: I tell you where you not said anything about this, [spells out word] K O L N.
RW: Yeah, Cologne, spelt in the German.
DC: That’s how it was spelt there.
RW: Yep.
DC: But that ain’t how we spelt it!
RW: No, No, but you took a photograph, I think, of the cathedral? You took a photograph of Koln Cathedral?
DC: I, I [pause] I remember after the war finished and we was there taking people, ground crew, air crew, anybody over to see the devastation, various places, I [unclear] down here but can’t read them properly, there’s Antwerp, Bonn, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Essen [pause] Monchengladbach, [pause], Heysel and Tottenbank I think, [laughs], that’s worth a bob or two that is.
RW: A lot of memories there Don. So how did you end up at Bassingbourn? How did you end up at Bassingbourn?
DC: How did I end up, I dunno, I just ended up there when they asked you where you’d like to be stationed, you know, these places, I put in for Bassingbourn.
RW: But wasn’t that an American base at that time? Weren’t the Americans there at the time?
DC: [unclear].
RW: No, Bassingbourn, was it, I thought the Americans were there.
DC: Oh yeah [pause] they were dead funny they was. You went in [unclear] the mess hall, ‘course you queued up and got your grub, sat down, these Yankees used to come in and get their, mixed the bloody lot together, slinging [unclear] banging on the table, [unclear] the table and they just got down – you never, never think people be like eating grub, they used to go tackle it, go into it as though they’d never seen a plate o’ grub at all [laughs].
RW: So.
PW: Why would he have got stationed there if it was an American base?
RW: I dunno. So what were the Air Force doing there with the Americans there? What was the RAF doing on an American base?
DC: I know we went to the American – they were stationed there, we went to visit.
RW: Yeah, oh right.
DC: Of course when I went to visit we, well they got their plate of grub there, bang [emphasis] their bloody knife down stuck in the table [laughs].
PW: But he was stationed there, wasn’t he Roger?
RW: Yeah. How long were you at Bassingbourn? How long were you there?
DC: At Bassingbourn?
RW: Yeah, were you demobbed from Bassingbourn? Were you demobbed from Bassingbourn?
DC: Yeah and you know where I went then, where I went for demob.
RW: No?
DC: I went to Wembley.
RW: Right.
DC: We went to Wembley Stadium and went down and all your clothes were laid about, and you took what clothes you want and home you went.
RW: Right.
DC: Oh I – [pause] people have asked me many, many, many times if I enjoyed it, I enjoyed every minute I was in the Air Force because I wanted to go in the Air Force when I was a child, as I told you before I think [pause].
PW: I think he was the only one in his family that went in the Forces.
RW: What was it like when you qualified and went on to 61 Squadron and were given the best aeroplane in the world to go and fly? How did that feel?
DC: Well, you can’t explain it really, you got in the aircraft – I might’ve told you before you slid down a – like a plank which was over the rear wheel and into your turret. You get in the turret and let your legs drop in, and then you had to feel behind you, you could shut the doors, close the doors behind you and they’d lock and you was stuck in there [pause].
RW: What did you do before you went on an Operation, what did the crew do before you got into the aeroplane?
DC: Sat there smoking.
RW: Then what happened? When you got to the aeroplane?
DC: When you got in the aeroplane?
RW: No, before you got to the aero – before you climbed aboard you all stood round –
DC: [laughs] you know [unclear], put a bottle on your feet [unclear], your feet one on top o’ the other and you sat there, and you got to light a candle and hand it out o’ the bottle. If you didn’t light the candle, you had to pay for the next round [laughs] not [unclear] me.
RW: But what happened when you all got to their aeroplane before you went up the ladder, you all stood around the wheel?
DC: Having a natter and then you got up and you walked round the back, and you looked at the old tail wheel and you just had a piddle on that! All piddled on the tail wheel.
RW: And that was the whole crew did that? The whole crew did that?
DC: Yeah.
PW: Well, I’ve never heard that before.
DC: Lovely [pause] - I’d go back again, I will never forget it as long as I live when we landed in Scotland, when Jimmy took me home.
RW: What about one day when the phone rang and you answered the phone, you answered the phone one day? What was the Group Captain’s name?
DC: What was the?
RW: Group Captain, when he rang you up, you answered the telephone [pause] do you remember?
DC: No.
RW: You answered the telephone and pretended you were somebody else.
DC: No.
RW: No? What was the Station Commander’s name? Station Commander on say 61 Squadron? Who was the Station Commander?
DC: Bomber Harris.
RW: [laughs] yeah.
DC: He was the Station Commander [pause], wouldn’t ask any member of the crew to do anything he wouldn’t do himself.
RW: Yep and I believe you met Churchill once? You met Churchill once?
DC: Went where?
RW: Winston Churchill.
DC: Oh.
RW: You met him once .
DC: Oh Winston, he was a good old warmonger he was.
PW: Didn’t you meet Douglas Bader as well? No?
[pause]
RW: Did you get in the hoops at Bassingbourn? Did you get in the hoops at Bassingbourn?
DC: Yeah [pause].
RW: And was it the Waggon and Horses, the Waggon, that used to be –
DC: Waggon and Horses .
RW: Yes? Just outside the aerodrome. It was a pub built at the same time as the airfield.
DC: We never used to go to main gates, had to go there, we used to nip through a gap in the hedge, straight in old boozer [laughs].
RW: So what was it like when you’d finished with 61 Squadron and you were out of all that danger? How did all that feel?
DC: Well, felt great relief, you ain’t got o’ go through all that again. I said, I enjoyed every minute of flying.
[pause]
JH: How many tours, how many missions did you do?
RW: How many trips did you do, how many operational trips?
DC: How many did I do? Actually I done one too many [pause] instead of doing thirty, I went on to do another twenty, carried straight on, so I done fifty like that, and our governor, he said we want you to do one more trip, there’s an extra-special one. Well it was extra-special, we went to Peenemunde I think it was, that was the name of it and that was, er, Hitler’s birthday but when we dropped the bombs he’s scarpered, he’d gone into Berlin.
RW: Was that, did you overfly that and go to North Africa? Did you overfly and then go to North Africa?
DC: Yeah [pause].
RW: Can you remember that, look – where you’d been to Tours and you’d had the collision and went to Exeter. What does that say there? In your Log.
DC: Two engines out of commission, port main plane bent [pause] awarded a DFM. You know what that is?
RW: What’s that?
DC: DFM, Distinguished Flying Medal.
RW: Right, any idea what happened to that?
DC: That’s about here somewhere.
PW: I don’t think it is, that one’s missing isn’t it Roger?
RW: Hmmm. Who presented you with the medal Don?
PW: Hang on Roger, he’s looking for it, there’s a box there with three in there I think, but not the one Roger’s mentioned.
DC: Load o’ ol’ rubbish that is.
RW: What, the box? I made that! [laughs] That’s his darts box.
RW: Don, who presented you with the DFM? Who gave it to you?
DC: Can’t hear you.
PW: How many medals are in that box, Roger? Four, yes that’s all I’ve ever seen.
RW: They’re only just ordinary – [background noise]. Can you remember who awarded the DFM to you. Can you remember who pinned it on you, who presented it?
DC: Whatsername got the DFM, yeah, can’t think of his name now, he was a Welsh boy if I remember rightly.
RW: What, who got the DFM? Who won it or did you get it? [pause]. We can’t find any record of him receiving that. When I spoke to the chap about the Legion d’Honneur, he told me what medals he’d been awarded and that wasn’t one of them, so that’s a bit of a mystery, but Pam seems to think her aunt had it and turned it into a brooch, but we don’t know.
RW: When you were demobbed what did you do after that?
DC: What did I do after I got demobbed? I went back down in the baking trade for a time and then I got talking to a bloke in a boozer, he was a manager of the Atlas and I got [unclear] and he says,‘you’re a silly fool doing what you are, why don’t you come down and work [unclear]’, I said, ‘I don’ wanna come down to work as I don’ wanna do no shift work’. He said, ‘you come down here and I’ll give you a job, you won’t have to do shift work, I’ll put you straight on day work’ and he did put me straight on day work.
RW: That was the local asbestos cement factory. And you ended up there over 25 years, you got a long service award. You got a long service award at the Atlas?
DC: I got a – we had a bloke what worked down the Atlas, we used to call him Flipper, he used to walk [makes hand slap noise] and one foot used to - slap, slap, slap – but if you was walking behind him on any day you got [unclear] bloody water.
RW: [laughs] He wouldn’t creep up on you, would he? You’d hear him coming!
DC: Slap, his old foot used to go.
PW: He worked at the bakers in Royston when he first came out or when they first got married, he used to get up at four o’clock in the morning, and cycle four miles every day to get to the bakers, and unfortunately the habit of getting up at the crack of sparrows has never gone away. He’s up here and they’re supposed to help him get dressed and stuff in the mornings, they come to get him up, he’s up and dressed and sometimes –
RW: When he worked at the Atlas, he was always there over an hour before he need be in the morning, always.
PW: Habit of a lifetime.
RW: But he doesn’t remember being married or anything really.
PW: Well, he never, ever talked about my mum after she died, it was like he totally switched that bit of his life off.
RW: So then, didn’t you do ten-pin bowling when you were at the Atlas, they had a ten-pin bowling team.
DC: When I worked down the Atlas.
RW: You went ten-pin bowling.
DC: Yeah.
RW: You had a team from –
DC: Used to go down Mill Road.
RW: And Stevenage, Stevenage?
DC: We used to go to Stevenage then we got in at Mill Road
RW: That’s now a John Lewis store, it’s one of the depots.
PW: Warehouse.
RW: Is it still?
PW: I wouldn’t have thought so now they’ve got the big one at Trumpington.
RW: But you were quite good at it, you were quite good at ten-pin bowling, you were quite good at it, ten-pin bowling.
DC: Yeah.
RW: Did you win any trophies?
DC: Tom Burgess was manager there and I used to go fishing with his son, and he got on to me, why bike up Rawston, all [unclear] when you could have a job down the works, why don’t you come down works. I said, ‘I don’t want shift work’, he says, ‘you come down there you won’t do shift work, put you straight on day work’ and I went straight on day work.
RW: Better money as well, more money? Paid better than baking? Pay was better than baking? The pay was better than the bakehouse?
DC: It was.
RW: And nearer home, closer to home as well.
DC: Yeah, it was on my doorstep, weren’t it.
RW: Yep, what else did you do when you retired, no, before you retired, you were something to do with the church lads’ brigade at one time.
DC: Yeah.
RW: Do you remember any of that?
DC: I remember that quite well [pause].
RW: Can you remember any stories?
DC: I had a – they gave me a peaked cap, which I’d never worn in me life, this very peaked cap on, these church lads got marching down road and I had to walk infront.
RW: But you had the swagger stick, you had a cane.
DC: Yeah [unclear] a little stick.
JH: Ask him if he remembers any of his church lads.
RW: I was one of them! We’re all quite incestuous because my uncle is Pam’s godfather and my uncle played the - pumped the organ for their wedding, drinking a bottle of beer whilst he was doing it [laughs]. What about – you played football as well.
DC: I remember Jackie Woods playing football. We always called Jackie Woods when he was playing football – we used to call him the ‘ankle tapper’, oh he’d be a devil coming up behind you, get your foot out and he’d just give a tweak of his foot and hit yer ankle.
RW: His wife lives here now.
JH: Oh.
RW: And her granddaughter is one of the carers [laughs], amazing! And she’s in her nineties, yep. Do you remember any of the football outings or anything? Football outings?
DC: Do I remember any outings?
RW: No?
DC: No, can’t remember anything.
RW: There was a lot of people from the British Queen used to be in the team I think.
DC: British Queen?
RW: Yeah.
DC: Where’s that?
[everyone laughs]
RW: You spent enough hours in there [pause].
DC: Norman Clark, I remember him.
RW: Bert Gibson? Bert Gibson?
DC: [laughs] Bert.
RW: He was the landlord.
DC: Used to bang on the back of that old seat, Miriam would look in. ‘Bring us a lump of bread and cheese’, that’s what he used to tell Miriam, she [unclear] ‘here y’are father’, bring him a plate, got a great slice of bread about that thick and a bloody great onion, he used to [unclear] have a lump [unclear] bloody great onion and -
RW: But he was a landlord during the war and he wouldn’t serve Americans.
JH: Oh dear.
RW: He didn’t refuse them, they would come in and say ‘can I have a pint of beer?’ he’d say, ‘I’ve just sold the last pint of beer’ or ‘my last pint of beer’ which he was correct, he had just served a pint of beer, so he didn’t refuse them he just the wrong or different words so they assumed he hadn’t got any beer left, but he refused to serve Americans [laughs], yes [pause].
PW: What’s he doing Roger?
RW: He’s just had his drink.
JH: I’d like to thank you, Donald, for allowing me to record this interview today, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Donald Chinery
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Judy Hodgson
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-24
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AChineryDR160824, PChineryDR1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Format
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00:56:09 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Don Chinery was born in Upper Sherringham on the 14th August 1921, and after working as a Baker, he joined the Royal Airforce in 1942 serving as a Rear Gunner.
His first station was RAF Bircham Newton, where he did his training, and flew in Stirlings and Ansons.
He tells a story about how his Stirling landed and the undercarriage did not work, he mentions how he went over the A10 and landed in somebody’s ‘cabbage patch’.
After training, he went straight to 196 Squadron at Waterbeach, and then moved on to 61 Squadron, where he served on Lancasters.
His first operation was the ball bearing factory at Schweinfurt, but also completed operations to Antwerp, Bonn, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Essen, Heysel and Monchengladback, as well as taking part in operations on D-Day.
After completing 51 Operations, Don returned to his first job as a baker.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Belgium--Antwerp
Belgium--Laeken
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Schweinfurt
England--Stevenage
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Herefordshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
196 Squadron
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Waterbeach
Stirling
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/487/8371/PButlerDWJ1602.1.jpg
1c0c36ea5b3b4bc79bf3758d968344d7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/487/8371/AButlerDWJ160623.2.mp3
11e879c4cada4b9163a2cb09c3a2959f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Butler, David
David William Jack Butler DFC
D W J Butler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Butler, DWJ
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader David Butler DFC (b. 1920).
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by David Butler and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing David Butler today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mr Butler’s home and it is the 23rd June 2016. Thank you, David, for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Edna Butler, David’s wife. So, David, can you tell me when and where you were born and something of your early years?
DB: I was born in Cambridge, in a place called Cherry Hinton, on the 27th of April 1920 and I lived in Cambridge and went to school in Cambridge, and the local school, and I joined the RAF then [unclear] in later years, on January the 11th 1940, I can remember that quite clear and I did my training in various places and was later posted out, and served in France during the war. And on one night, we got warned the Germans were coming in the end of Reims, where I was stationed, in Reims and we were warned that the Germans were coming in the [unclear], and so we made a very hasty retreat out and went so we couldn’t go north because the bomber, er, the beaches were packed, so we had to go right across to Saint Lazare and we ran out of petrol and we had to walk forty miles to the coast We then got on to a Polish [unclear], wet knees up to our thighs and we got taken to Southampton in a Polish boat, and from then onwards, it was back to RAF stations and that sort of thing until I went on various courses, and I became an instructor at aircrew receiving centre in London and had to go down to Lords and collect sixty cadets [unclear], train them and have fun and games with them and whilst I did their selection boards to become pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, air gunners and that sort of thing and I later became a trainee with aircrew. I volunteered for aircrew because they were getting a little short of aircrew with the amount of losses that they were entertaining, and so I took a six-month, the quickest route [unclear] to an RAF station was as an air gunner, so I took a six-month course as an air gunner and was fortunate in, with another friend we passed top of the course, and we were interviewed by a very senior officer, and in my log book it registered that the very keen and smart cadet [unclear] will be well worth the commission, so I felt very chuffed about that Did my training and then was finally posted on to crew up to an RAF station at 12 Squadron at Wickenby, flying Lancasters, and we did all our training on Lancasters, and from then onwards we did our bombing trips out to various places and I [pause] completed about four or five bombing crews to various places, and if you want to know what places they were my log book will tell you, er, did you want to -
JH: If you’d like to say the ones that there were.
DB: I did a total of [pause] thirty trips but unfortunately, on one occasion they, I was taken to hospital ‘cause, with a very high temperature and er, it was very, I was very close to sort of not completing [pause] -
JH: Right.
DB: And my crew were posted with another chap in my place, who had just come back from leave, and they went off to Nuremburg and the chap came in the following morning to tell me that my crew were missing and they’d all been shot down outside Nuremburg .
JH: Gosh.
DB: So the CO said, now I can either go back and be re-crewed, but if the present crew where the chap was missing is prepared to take you, I said that will be fine, I would much rather continue my flying period, and so I finished off my tour with a new captain and a new crew which was super, and we did thirty trips including ten trips, bombing trips on Berlin.
JH: Really.
DB: Which was a rather lengthy tour, er, trip something seven or eight hours there and back and particularly in the winter, it was ruddy cold [laughs] so, but nevertheless we finally made, we had one or two little unfortunate enterprises of firing at Luftwaffe aircraft which, who dared to come up and see us, getting caught in flak, getting caught in searchlights but eventually we made it, by the grace of God and a good pilot flying the aircraft.
JH: What position were you in the aircraft?
DB: I selected which one and I was the rear gunner, which was well known to be a hot spot!
JH: [laughs].
DB: Having met a load of Luftwaffe pilots some years later, they did say, we always used to try to shoot up the rear gunner first, so I used to say ‘thank you very much’ [laughs] so, but we did finish. I then, I then took a gunnery leader’s course, did some specialised courses and run a lot of other gunners through the course and then I volunteered to do another tour of operations, and I was crewed up with six other crew members and, er, one of whom was a New Zealander, and a top line pilot, and we went to a place called RAF North Creake which was 12 Squadron. My previous squadron was 12 Squadron and this at North Creake was 171 Squadron, so we knew, we used to know that quite well and we managed to survive to the end of the war, another twenty five trips altogether including a number of little incidents involving Luftwaffe aircraft so there we go! So that really is a quick summary of my flying days [laughs].
JH: Okay, and what did you do then, immediately after the war, were you still in the RAF?
DB I stayed, I stayed in the RAF and I made a career of it, and I was fortunate enough to be offered a full time commission and I did so and got posted out to various places, er, to Egypt, I was in Iraq when Gaddafi had his rebellion, and we did have a tank roll up to our RAF El Adem in those days and, er, we got to know the Iraqi captain very well and he would literally sign anything for half a bottle of whisky [laughs].
JH: [laughs].
DB: A great chap, so we went all over and we were, I was allocated a bungalow in Tripoli with my wife and of course she was all stopped out, so she didn’t get out at all so that’s, and I was posted one or two other places, er Aleppo. Oh I was posted to Jordan, I got to know the Jordanese people and we got to, er, we made arrangements to have our, er, the runway lengthened and we had a very nice big, after when it was all over, we had a very, very nice time with a big marquee with the local Arabs, which was all very exciting, and then I got, I was then eventually posted back to England and became a SAR officer.
JH: Where was that at in England? Where were you posted to?
DB: A very good question. Do you know I can’t remember the name of it, it’s down south somewhere, I can’t, oh [pause] can’t remember the name, no sorry, name’s gone, old age has finally -
JH: Is it?
EB: Was it Headley Court?
DB: Head, no, no, I -
EB: Lionel?
DB: Oh, I did a tour at Headley Court which was an RAF medical station, and that was down south [pause] and, er, I was the adjutant there and I got posted all over the place from there, so it was quite a career one way or another.
JH: So when you were posted, you mostly went off on your own, it wasn’t something that your wife could go with you?
DB: No, no, then my wife joined me wherever I got.
JH: She did, right, yes, yes.
DB: And then, that was from 19-, oh, about 1940, 1950, I suddenly reached the age when it was retirement age, so I wondered what it was like to apply for a job and be told ‘you’re not what we’re suited for’ or ‘you’re too old for this’ or ‘you’re too old for that’, so I applied for a job at Girton, my home town, at Girton College [pause]. And, but I thought my family, my father still lived there and I thought it would be rather nice to be, and he was concerned that, concerned also with the local St John’s College as well so I thought it would be rather nice if I could join him in one of the colleges. Anyway I had five interviews by various women, because Girton College was a woman’s college in those days, and the job vacancy was for a steward and a junior bursar, and I applied and much to my surprise, after five interviews, I was offered the post and so I went to, er, and lived a month at the academics. And not being, and not having ever gone to college myself, I was given college status which meant that I had to become a Master, and I finally went to the Senate House in Cambridge and received a Master’s degree, an honorary one [laughs] and I said to the [unclear], do I have to take, my service means in the RAF you have to earn it and pass exam to get there, this I feel a little cheated getting my Master’s degree and I got all the paperwork to go with it and so I was with them for about three or four years and then I got another job with a local firm [pause] to manage the director’s office, which was rather pleasant. And I retired then and took up local work with the British Legion, and did a lot of work with the British Legion in Cambridge, in Histon and was finally elected as their president of British Legion and I’ve been their president since 2008, so I go to all their meetings, I don’t miss a meeting and I find it very honourable to go to all memorials, the meetings where they all have meetings so really, that’s a very brief summary of my career outside the RAF and inside the RAF.
JH: Yes, yes.
DB: There we go [pause], forgot to mention that I was, I transferred from the admin branch in the RAF because they did, the flying ceased and I then went on an admin course, and then I did an admin course for about two or three years and then they ran short of catering officers, and I thought a new career, and so I went on a six-month catering course and started from start to finish to be taught about all things in the RAF about catering, which was a wonderful course, very, very, very, and had the pleasure of meeting so many other caterers and posted to so many other RAF stations as the catering officer and became a staff officer in the catering branch which was very nice to have, so [pause] that’s another part of my RAF career besides flying and er, [pause] -
JH: It was very varied actually wasn’t it, you covered quite, you know, a lot of -
DB: Yes, after my service I had the pleasure of being invited to a German Luftwaffe gathering in Germany, and so I went with twelve other last Lancaster aircrew and went to the Luftwaffe gathering, and had the pleasure of meeting all the chaps that used to fire at us and, er, miss us thank goodness. But they were an incredible bunch of people and I’ve got some, I’ve got a couple of photographs of them here if you should want to have a look at them and show you -
JH: Yes, definitely.
DB: And later on, we invited them to come to Cambridge and we took them all round Cambridge and whilst they were here, I got them to sign my old flying log book and in it [pause] [background noise], there we go, that’s a photograph of all their signatures, all the Luftwaffe pilots that used to fire at us when we was flying over Germany.
JH: That’s fabulous, isn’t it.
DB: Yes, isn’t it.
JH: What a record .
DB: And I don’t know of another log book which has got those names in, unusual. I got very friendly with one of them, Martin Chivers, [then pronounces Chyvers] and he’d only, his log book indicated that he’d only shot down fifty-two of our English bombers, all written down, and he says ‘can I see your log book’, [adopts accent] so I showed him mine, and he said ‘you did fifty-five? how come I missed you!’ [adopts accent], [laughs], I said the simple reason, when we were, I were a target, very near a target, I used to get my pilot to jink which is -
JH: Sway?
DB: And we could see underneath if there was anybody there. ‘Ah’, he says, ‘you were one of those’, I said, ‘why is that’, he said, ‘because if we come across anybody was doing zinking, [adopts accent] we went to somebody who didn’t do that.’ [laughs]
JH: Wow.
DB: So that was very good and we’ve been sending one another Christmas cards, I didn’t get one from him last year so I assume he’s gone, but I got two photographs of him and his big [unclear] was very close to Goebbels, so that was a very interesting little incident, so there we go. All part of a peculiar little career of one’s life. Back on some of our bombing missions, the flying, the Lancaster was a very manoeuvrable aircraft, in an attack or getting out of searchlights, it was very manoeuvrable, and the skipper was able to manoeuvre the aircraft very quickly and get us out of trouble. And on numerous occasions he was able to do this, a very, very good pilot, Adams his name was, Flight Lieutenant Adams, very, very good and on my second tour, we were less with having to go and set up screens of, wireless screens to allow the bomber stream to go through these screens, in order to bomb where we’re going to bomb. And getting those into position was always a very tricky position, and getting caught in searchlights was a very tricky position, and being able to get out, Bill could, our skipper was a New Zealander and was five foot nothing, but he could throw that aircraft about anywhere. It was a very sluggish aircraft, the old Halifax and, er, I remember one being caught in some flak on one occasion, and we had the engine catch on fire and we had to get down very, very low level and fly back to England, and we got back home, with the engine blew up again so we had to find the nearest air place to get in, and by some stroke of luck, Bill said, ‘is Waterbeach down below?’ which is just outside Cambridge. I said ‘oh, home town!’ so we managed to get down and we got, we asked permission to land, we were given permission to land [unclear] and we down the whole length of the runway and tipped up at the end and I was still sitting in the back in the turret so, and I had to get out quickly, and getting out of a rear turret was extremely difficult, and I had to put my hands behind my back, open the doors and literally fall, grab my parachute which was hanging up but I didn’t get the parachute, we didn’t need it fortunately, and fell out backwards and damaged my ankle. And all of the crew thought it was highly amazing and most amusing because I was the only bloke that was injured [laughs], busted me ankle! So there we go, so that’s another little story about the second tour.
JH: And when you were in the Lancasters, were you always a rear gunner?
DB: I was always, I volunteered to do the rear gunner in our new crew and I volunteered to do the rear gunner’s spot on the Lancaster, and I’ve got some photographs I can show you of a rear turret which will give you an idea of what it was like, getting in was difficult. I was, very little room but you could, but knowing every part of a turret was essential, you knew where all the stops were. If you had a stoppage, you knew how to clear it and how to, but you, and that was in the dark, you would never have any lights in the, bit of moonlight if you were lucky, but generally speaking you, I used to get stoppages in, and I had to find the stoppage and knowing where the parts were and guiding me, the turret you would guide it round to the left or to the right by power and hydraulics and it was extremely difficult [unclear] and very cold. My thighs used to get frozen and I used to carry with me a tin of orange juice to drink coming back and it used to get frozen up, so I used to have to tuck it in my flying suit to soft it down a bit, and I never got out of the turret once, I never had to get out in a hurry once so we, so we did thirty trips .
JH: That’s extraordinary, isn’t it.
DB: in the Lancaster, a total of thirty bombing trips and that was bombing over the target, we never once let them go free. We had the bombing, the bomb aimer had a special area where he was told to drop the bombs and this he did, and it was a [pause], flak was always a problem over targets. It used to come up and flak and when we used to get back to the squadron, the mechanic used to come back ‘you’ve got seventeen holes in your body this week’ or ‘you’ve got one’, yeah, but I had one, I had a bit of flak through the side of my turret on one occasion but, er, that smashed the window but that was all right, no problem.
JH: I presume there was great elation when you actually came back, you were very elated when you got back?
DB: Er -
JH: Or quiet?
DB: Not really, we took it very much in our way, our main thing when we got back was going down to the briefing room and having a mug of coffee with a little drop of brandy in it, but nobody supplied the brandy, we had to take that ourselves, but we had a cup of coffee which was very good. On every trip, we had to be interviewed and record what happened on our trips, it was quite a lengthy operation before we were able to go and have breakfast in the, and occasional we used to get an extra egg from the people who didn’t get back and there, we always felt very sad when we knew the people that had been shot down.
JH: I’m sure.
DB: We felt they were missing, and we used to raise our glasses and drink their health and that was it. Some we knew that were made prisoner of war, others were killed, my own crew were all killed and [pause] if I may just add a little story to this [pause], some years after I retired from the RAF, I had a message from a gentleman named Tommy Cass, whose nephew was the air gunner that took my place when I was in hospital, and he says ‘can I come and talk to you’. So we got together and apparently he found out where that aircraft had been shot down in Germany and he went to Germany, and he tracked down the area and the local police force which found it, and they actually found the pilot, the Luftwaffe pilot that had shot the aircraft down, and made a big story of it in the local press. And I have, and he gave me a copy of [sneezes], oh excuse me, [everyone laughs], [sneezes again] and I have actually got in my little side entry here a copy of that report, amazing, so that was a very interesting interview from the chap that was the uncle of the chap that took my place. And [pause], they, and I actually got photographs of the graves of my old crew, in fact there’s, in the local German report there were three bodies picked up on the edge of the village and the three names were the three of my crew and I, you can’t imagine how I felt.
JH: No, no.
DB: There but by the grace of God, I should have been.
JH: Yes, mmm.
DB: I think they were saving me up so that when I go off to Hell [everyone laughs], the old big chap, big devil will be waiting for me downstairs, ‘Butler, I’ve been waiting for you, now we’ll have a good night out together!’ [everyone laughs], that’s my little story that is, yes.
JH: That’s fabulous.
DB: Oh I can spend hours telling you about the trips but it’s, it was a trip that had to be done and so many that didn’t come back, by the grace of God I still wonder why so many of us got through our thirty trips.
JH: Yes, that’s quite something isn’t it, quite something.
DB: Wonderful, wonderful, even now you meet them and they say ‘hello’ and it’s, you can’t remember their faces but you could remember particularly. I can’t go to any of the bomber command reunions now, I find it’s too much, er, hanging around and waiting, but I still meet them if, particularly I have two of them that I meet on a Monday at Tesco’s! [laughs] and we have a little chat.
JH: That’s lovely.
DB: Very rare about the war, we don’t talk about ops, just ‘how are you, ok?, how you’re getting on, how’s everybody’, just a general chit-chat so, I was very fortunate, er [pause]. After I did my first tour, I did receive the Distinguished Flying Cross which was a great honour for me, the only sad thing was I was hoping to go down to the Palace to get it presented, but there were so many of them being awarded, getting through it, that I was not invited but I did get a letter from the King to say congratulations and it’s hanging up on the wall! [laughs].
JH: Oh yes.
DB: Leave it up there love, leave it up, oh yes.
EB: That’s it, I like to see it.
DB: [reading] ‘I greatly regret I am unable to give this person the award you so [unclear], I will now send it with my congratulations, signed George RI [laughs].
JH: What an honour, that’s lovely, yes.
DB: Buckingham Palace, so I’ve had a little letter from Buckingham Palace, yes.
JH: As you say, it’s a shame you weren’t able to receive it personally.
DB: Yes, I didn’t write back and say thank you [everyone laughs], I still wear it, I wear it on occasions, oh we had a parade the other day which was to put, get a new banner and we took [background rustling], oh that’s the old Lancaster [pause], and that’s the photograph of the parade which was interesting [background noise].
JH: So when was this, just the other?
DB: Last Sunday.
JH: Really? Where was this at, where was the parade?
DB: Oh the parade was at St Andrew’s church in the village.
JH: In the village, right, yes you must be very proud when you’re wearing the medal.
DB: Yes.
JH: When you were actually flying the operations, did you have to keep going up day after day, was there a break, you know, if you went on an operation did you -
DB: No, no, no.
JH: Did you -
DB: You just carried on, whenever there was an op on, you may have a break of three or four days, perhaps a week, but then perhaps you had two or three in a short space of time.
JH: And what were you actually doing while you were on the break then, when you weren’t -
DB: Oh checking your guns, and catching your, checking your turret, making sure it was all working because it was essential for it to be working properly, er, that in an attack the, the chap that I made friends with flew 110, FN 110’s and his method of attack was to fly from the ground, up underneath the aircraft because they had upfiring guns in their Luftwaffe aircraft and he used to position himself under and fire at the bomb bay and the engines and that’s how he managed to shoot down fifty-two bombers. Quite a character, he knew what he was doing [pause]. After the war I was very fortunate in being taken in the current Lancaster for a trip out and we went round the runway, and when we got back from the runway I was able to sit in the rear turret like I used to, knowing where everything was as if it was yesterday, knowing about the gunneries, the handles for this and the stops for that, knowing exactly where everything was. I got out and the skipper said, ‘how was that?’, I said it was like a dream come true, I said sitting in my rear turret, I said ‘do you realise that you’ve got a piece of turret missing?’, he said ‘turret missing?, what do you mean?’, I said ‘there’s a piece of your turret that is absent’, he said ‘what is that?’, I said ‘it’s the dead man’s handle’. He said ‘what on earth’s a dead man’s handle?’, I said ‘if we got shot up during the war through flak or Luftwaffe and we lost our hydraulics to the turrets which meant we couldn’t turn the turret, the dead man’s handle was on the left hand side and we used to click it into space and turn it to which way we wanted to get out quick’, ‘ooh’, he said, ‘I will have to look for one of those!’ [laughs] and I don’t think they’ve yet found one! [laughs].
JH: And this was at East Kirkby was it, the East Kirkby runway?
DB: Yes, yes, somewhere like that, yes lovely, well there we go, well I’m glad I found you a Luftwaffe pilot!
JH: Yes, that’s lovely [laughs].
DB: All the comments we’ve had in the past about bombing of Dresden and scattering bombs around it, I feel quite hurt that we should be criticised for the action that we took. Prior to our trip to Dresden which is in my log book on the certain date, er [pause], we were briefed as we always used to have before a bombing trip, we were briefed to what was going to happen there, we were briefed that there were a lot of German troops stationed around there, and the Russians were coming into it and there were at least three other Luftwaffe factories in that area so we didn’t feel quite guilty when we bombed Dresden, and we went into Dresden. We arrived late and the big fire which was reported in the papers, we arrived when it was going at full strength and that was when we dropped our bombs in the middle of it, and we got caught in some searchlights and the flak but we made it through to the other side, but I have no guilt complex whatsoever of bombing Dresden, nor do I have any guilt complex about bombing Berlin ten times. I have no guilt complex about bombing any German cities whatsoever, they were our enemies, the number of people that they had killed off-hand throughout their marches to all these wonderful old countries we knew of, that’s it, I have no guilt, that’s how I feel about our bombing of Germany.
JH: Yes, yes.
DB: So that’s on one trip, Berlin was always a heavy place to bomb, it took us one, it took us something like an hour to get from one side of Berlin to the other and that was always full of flak and searchlights and [pause] -
JH: I mean, looking back, you must think how lucky you were to survive.
DB: I still wonder and I still think it was the old devil looking after me, I’m quite convinced of it, looking after me! A wonderful period in my lifetime, that there are occasions when I tend, at ninety-six, to forget little items these days, not as flowing with memory as I used to be which is annoying for me, not being able to walk as easy as I did but it’s all wonderful memories because I’m so pleased I lived through it, I have no guilt [unclear] at all.
JH: No, I mean you obviously had wonderful camaraderie with your fellow colleagues at the time, your crew.
DB: Oh the crew that I flew with were wonderful, wonderful people, all, the bomb aimer was accurate, the pilot was superb, the engineer knowing what to do, the mid-upper firing his guns and keeping us safe, wonderful team of people we were, all seven of us and [pause] I, as far as I know, I am the last remaining member of two crews, having lost my first one so sadly who were lovely people, but now the other thirteen members have now left me on my own. I’m not very pleased about that! [laughs], not very pleased about that! Wonderful period.
JH: And did you have, after you I know you’d lost your first crew, then was the pilot then with you all of the rest of those operations? The second one?
DB: Oh we had one pilot for one crew, for one tour, he did thirty and he went off and did some other things, I don’t know what they all did, er.
JH: But you always flew with that pilot.
DB: I always flew with that pilot for thirty trips.
JH: Wow, right.
DB: And the same on my second tour, I flew with him for twenty five trips, every pilot, because they knew who you were, what you did, what you were capable of as well [pause].
EB: Well, did you not have to be accepted by the crew of your second trip?
DB: Oh yes, yes they accepted me quite well but they knew, of course, that their rear gunner had been, he’d put, he was the first chap back from his leave when I was missing, they had, there was a full crew requirement on all the aircraft and so they took this chap who’d just come back from leave in my place in the rear turret with my old crew. I didn’t know that, I didn’t know who he was, I never met him, I didn’t know of him so I, er [pause], you can’t imagine how I felt when I knew, I felt like death warmed up, as if it was, he had taken my place and didn’t come home and he was missing, they were missing for some time before they were declared shot down, as his nephew found out that they’d been. And it was interesting to read the, an old pilot’s report on how he shot the aircraft down, it was on its way back from Nuremberg and Nuremberg was a very heavily defended city for flak and guns, and it was probably that that brought, I don’t know what it was brought down, whether it was a, I have a feeling that it was a Luftwaffe pilot that brought it down who gave me his report on how he shot it down [pause] and I got the report of him in my papers here somewhere. I never thought I could have got that out unless you read it but [unclear] so I’m glad I’ve found [background noise] my old friend there! [laughs], he put on a little bit of weight when I met him [laughs] but he got the iron cross, two iron crosses which is one of the top.
JH: Oh, awards for the Germans.
DB: [pause] handsome lad!
JH: And obviously through all this time your wife, then you had met him, did you say, in the 1940s?
EB: Oh yes we met, we met in 1940.
DB: She didn’t know what I did when I went down to London because I’d met her and we then parted.
EB: Yes, I didn’t hear anything from him for quite a while, did I?
DB: No, it must, ‘40, the end of about, the beginning of ’41, I got posted down to London, ‘41, ’42. It was down at London when I volunteered to become aircrew. I then went through all my training and it was 1943 when I got crewed up and ‘44 when I finished my first tour and about ’44, ’45, I’d received, I’d been promoted to flying officer, I’d got my gong up with my aircrew badge which I didn’t have when I first met Edna, and I was a young flying officer so when I first met Edna I was just an ordinary AC plonk [laughs].
EB: Yes! [laughs].
DB: And so I reverted from being an AC plonk to a young flying officer with a badge up and a medal up, so I thought ‘ooh’, and I was posted to a station four miles down the road from where Stafford operated and I was, I used to borrow a bicycle, go from the Officers’ Mess into Stafford and I said I wonder what it’s like to go and knock on the door to an old girlfriend and see what she’s like, so I duly arrived at Blackiston Street, remember the name of the road?
EB: Yes.
DB: Knocked on the door and says, ‘hello, oh surprise, surprise’ and we went together ever since.
EB: Well, I used to work at the Admiralty because when the Admiralty was down in Coventry, when Coventry was bombed, they moved it all up to one of the new schools that had just been built in Stafford on the outskirts, so I had, I and my sister both went to work there and we were there and when I came from there on the bus one Saturday from work down to, I used to get off outside the cinema and who should be standing there but this one! Absolutely flabbergasted, I said -
DB: Well, of course.
EB: ‘What are you doing here?’
DB: I felt [unclear] in my glory at being commissioned and badges up and medals up [laughs].
EB: Yes, and from then on -
DB: I, I really felt the bee’s knees as you can just imagine, how you would feel at that and I was only [pause] -
EB: You weren’t very old, were you?
DB: No, I was about twenty-four.
EB: Yes.
DB: Beautiful.
EB: Full of himself.
DB: And I’m still, and I’m still beautiful [laughs].
EB: [laughs].
JH: [laughs] of course!
EB: And everything went from there.
DB: Yes, I always tell my wife, never mind my lovely one, you’re still beautiful and she still is!
JH: Absolutely.
EB: He got on very well with my stepmother, didn’t you?
DB: We got on like a house on board, yes.
EB: He’d got a motorcycle and I wouldn’t go on it, because when you went round the corners I was frightened you see, but Mother used to go on the back, oh she never used to worry, did she?
DB: I was off, yes, I retired to Stafford.
EB: And then you went on the council.
DB: I got on the council, and then I was offered a commission because they ran short of officers in the RAF, they wanted specialised [unclear] officers so I was offered a permanent commission. So I said I was a job in Her Majesty’s Government, tax office for a short while, so I said ‘I’m off’ and so we, I went back into the RAF and -
JH: What year was that?
DB: That would be ’48, something like that, ’47, yes.
EB: Yes.
DB: ‘47 yes, about three years afterwards, came out then went back in again and then spent thirty-two years in it and I still miss the RAF, used to enjoy the RAF, enjoy, splendid place, splendid people. Ah well, there you go
EB: So, so that’s what he misses now, don’t you, you really do miss -
DB: Yes I do
EB: Lots of parts of the RAF life really
DB: Yes, that’s, you can’t have it always
EB: It’s just memories now, David
DB: Yes, yes, difficult remembering memories too sometimes. I was trundling along telling you something and then I couldn’t remember the end of it [pause], but then it flashed back again, a bit disjointed our little chit-chat I think somewhere.
JH: I think it’s been -
DB: A little bit fed in
JH: Yes, but that’s -
DB: Is there anything that I can broaden for you to give you a little bit more information, is there anything you’ve fancied I ought to tell you?
JH: [laughs] well
DB: Is there anything you, memorabilia-wise I could tell you?
EB: I think you’ve told it almost everything
DB: I’ve told you what it’s like sitting in a turret, I’ve told you about one or two other -
JH: Yes, absolutely
DB: Attacks that we had, and we completed, we mentioned what the Luftwaffe, telling the pilot to jink, we got that in about telling the pilot to jink
JH: Yes
EB: Yes
DB: Got that in
JH: Yes, no, I think we’ve fairly comprehensive
DB: There some little bit about something, exciting ones [laughs]
EB: I think you’ve covered almost all the -
DB: ‘course you’ve been sitting there as well, you’ve listened.
EB: Yes
DB: This lass has heard it all over again, she’s heard it so many times now she can even tell me the stories!
EB: I could write the book meself!
DB: You could write , I did start writing a book and after the first chapter I got fed up with it, ‘oh to hell with it’, I never bothered, never bothered.
EB: Well, I think you thought that so many people had already written -
DB: I’ve got books here about air gunners and what have you so, all with their funny stories and they’ve got lots of stories that I’ve never seen or heard of.
JH: Well, you all have something to say, don’t you, I mean, you know, in fairness so -
DB: I used to like to fly in the Lancaster, wonderful, I had the pleasure of flying my son in an aircraft, he’s got his own aircraft, and he took me up one day and said, ‘here you are, fly it!’ and I did and I said ‘star, we’re diving starboard, go!’ [laughs]. But I used to enjoy giving other pilots who used to, we used to get Spitfires and other single-engine flights doing practice attacks on us so that we knew what was coming and how to avoid them, what was the best evasive action and I worked out one or two good manoeuvres which I used to get the Spitfire doing, and they used to say, ‘sod you, I’m off!’ [laughs] and they used to dive like that away from us.
JH: When was this then, what -
DB: In between bombing trips.
JH: Right.
DB: So that we could practice and get the other people, and it was my job in the rear turret to give evasive action command to the skipper because I could, I was a better [unclear], because I could see him coming up, the mid-upper could see coming down, and I could see him coming down, and I could see him, being in the turret gave me a much better view.
JH: Right, so that was quite important then, position.
DB: Yes, if I saw anything I used to say to the skipper, ‘I’m going to give him a little burst, skip’, ‘okay’, because if I saw anything, because seeing [emphasis] a fighter in the dark you couldn’t, except moonlight. You could see a bit, depends on where he was, you could see movement, you might see a little bit of engine combustion but generally speaking you didn’t, the only thing you did, you saw was some red hot bullets coming over the top of your turret or pinging your turret. That was the only thing you saw and then you knew you’d got problems and I always used, if I saw anything coming up that was, I always give him a ‘dive to starboard, go, go, go’ [shouts] and he used to dive to starboard, dive to port whichever, if the fighter pilot was this side and he was coming up, I always used to give a ‘dive to starboard, go’, that meant the skipper would put the aircraft down like that and present a crossing speed, you passed aircraft much quicker than you would do if you started, ‘cause he could then follow you so you had to.
JH Yes, cuts across.
DB: You had to be on the ball to make sure that he couldn’t follow you and shoot at you, it was essential [emphasis] you gave him the right order, so you had to, you had to be on the ball when you first saw and you didn’t have a lot of time when you first saw the chap.
JH: So the pilot was relying on you an awful lot?
DB: Oh yes, very much so that you gave him the right [pause] -
JH: instructions.
DB: Yes, oh we never got shot down so that was [laughs].
EB: Mind you-
JH: You must’ve been good! [laughs]
DB: Must’ve helped!
EB: There was a lot of rear gunners lost their lives, wasn’t there David?
DB; Oh yes.
EB: Because they used to attack the rear gunner before anything else really.
DB: I suppose so.
EB: There was quite a lot, a lot of them that got killed wasn’t there.
DB: Yes [quietly], a long time ago.
EB: So you have to count your blessings my love, don’t you?
DB: Yes, and I still think you’re beautiful! [everyone laughs].
EB: This is the flannel I have to get from being in the Air Force! [laughs].
JH: Well, I would like to thank you, David, for allowing me to record this interview today and thank you both very much.
EB: It’s been a pleasure.
DB: But I’m rather sad that I (unclear).
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with David Butler
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Judy Hodgson
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-06-23
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Sound
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AButlerDWJ160623, PButlerDWJ1602
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:02:27 audio recording
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Davy St Pyer
Vivienne Tincombe
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David Butler, DFC, was born in Cherry Hinton in April 1920 and joined the Royal Air Force on the 11th January 1940, serving in France at Reims as the Germans advanced. After walking some distance, he was evacuated back to England on a Polish boat and arrived in Southampton.
He tells of how he was hospitalised with a very high temperature, and how his replacement and his crew were lost over Nuremburg.
He was posted to 12 Squadron at Wickenby, flying in Lancasters as a Rear Gunner, and then he was posted to 171 Squadron at North Creake.
David tells of his scraps with the Luftwaffe and meeting some Luftwaffe Pilots at the end of the war and he tells of meeting those pilots who were firing at him.
Made a career in the Royal Airforce and served in Egypt, Iraq and Jordan as well as completing administration courses and serving at other Royal Air Force Stations including the Royal Air Force Medical Station at Headley Court as an Adjutant.
After the war, got a job at Girton College and became President of the Royal British Legion in Cambridge.
David completed a total of 55 Operations, 30 on his first tour of duty and then completing 25 operations on his second tour.
12 Squadron
171 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF North Creake
RAF Wickenby