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Title
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Mayhill, Ron
Ronald Desmond Mayhill
R D Mayhill
Description
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One oral history interviews with Ron Mayhill (b. 1924). He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2019-03-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Mayhill, RD
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Transcription
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GT: This is Thursday the 7th of March 2019 and I am at the apartment home of Mr Ron Desmond Mayhill, DFC in Auckland, New Zealand, born 6 February 1924 in Auckland, New Zealand. Ron joined the Air Training Corps in 1941 and the RNZAF in 1942. He began his training in the Manucau and Rotorua area, then off to Canada and then the United Kingdom by the end of 1943. After several UK bases, he arrived at Westcott 11 OTU then Chedburgh at 1653 Occupational Conversion Unit, flying Stirlings and then to Feltwell number three Lancaster Finishing School, before his operational posting to 75 New Zealand Squadron RAF, at Mepal, Cambridgeshire flying Lancaster Mark 3s. Ron completed twenty seven wartime operations before being severely wounded on the twenty seventh trip and was awarded an immediate DFC, Distinguished Flying Cross for his actions on that day. Ron, thank you for allowing me to interview you for the IBCC Archives, so please begin by telling me why and how you joined the Royal New Zealand Air Force.
RM: Yes, I was at school before the war broke out. This war broke out in my first few years at school, at the at the secondary school and of course we were all thinking about war, especially as the headmaster would read out the names of old boys who had just died, some I knew, prefects. 1941, Air Training Corps started up and I was attracted to that, I liked the idea of flying. Of course in those days people were still thinking of trenches and marching in World War One: that was in the minds of many, many people. The air force was new and also there were opportunities, as we found out as we started training. Left school in ’41 and automatically went into the air force ‘42. We were called Blue Awkwards by the army particularly, because we were “precious” they thought, we had a very smooth run in to the air force, a fast track. So, at the age of eighteen, I went into the cab at Seagrove ADU, Aerodrome Defence Unit on the Manucau harbour. It was glorious fun for us. We were school kids, well I was, although some had left school a few years. We had assignments to do at night, I found them easy having just left school and I had to admire a lot of those chaps who had left school quite a few years and they really had to work, and work, and work to get through, and we helped them. We moved on Rotorua ITW, Initial Training Wing. We were really put through it, physically, psychologically, they tried to persuade me not to join the aircrew. And we were in decompression chambers, we had a lot of tests, quite severe tests and a lot of the guys missed out, a lot of my friends missed out of aircrew. Even things like colour-blindness, you’d miss out. From ITW we went off to overseas, I was on the Matsonia, one of the Matson Lines of course. Going up the gang plank with a kitbag on my shoulder we were welcomed by tough looking Yanks, lining the rails: ‘you’ll be sorry, you’ll be sorry, you’ll be sorry!’ I can still hear those shouts, and they were tough boys. They had knives on their belts, we were warned not to go on the upper decks at night. And they were pretty tough. They had boxing, in those days the blacks, they weren’t called blacks in those days, they tied their legs, two of them together, put them in the ring and they just swung blindly to hit each other. The crowd thought it was great fun. But there were some lovely things too on the ship. I can always remember one of our boys playing lovely songs on the clarinet and I still remember the flying fish. Mind you, crossing the line was rather tough too, those Yanks had their money’s worth. After beating us up with hoses and brooms, we slithered up and down the decks. We had to meet the King Neptune and had to choose the physician or the surgeon. Now I didn’t like the surgeon much because the chaps had their hair cut on the centre shaved one side and the hair long on the other side, so I took my medicine and then I wondered whether I should have. It was a tumbler full of ink and vinegar and it had a physical effect on me which was coloured green for one or two months afterwards. I don’t think my kidneys liked it very much. Then to Canada. That was, that was a wonderful experience. We went ice skating, never ice skating in my life, but we fell over all the time and every time you fell over a pretty girl would pick us up: we fell over lots of times. Canada was great. We were flying on Boligbrokes, which were Blenheims, Ansons and you couldn’t go wrong in Canada, because all the roads went east/west or north/south, grid fashion and the railways went east/west. Every railway station had its name on the place [unclear] it was very hard to get lost and the weather was great. It was pretty cold in Winnipeg, it was fifteen degrees below zero one day and your ears would freeze in about three minutes and very painful getting the, the skin come off and new skin growing. But we enjoyed Canada. We had leave and I thought I was quite rich having a hundred dollars, going across to New York my final leave before I went across the Atlantic. I ran out of money one day, but I was lucky enough to know where to go and I was put up with a millionaire in New Jersey and that was an experience too. We went from Halifax on the Queen Mary. The Queen Mary went alone, not in convoy because it was so fast. But apparently a cruiser, American cruiser, got in its road and went over the top of the cruiser which sank of course. So the Queen Mary had a list, I mentioned that in my letter home, but the censors cut out the bits. We arrived at Greenock on the Clyde after a big dash across the Atlantic - Hitler had offered Iron Crosses to anybody who could sink that ship - and it lasted the whole war, it was very fast. We were in blackout trains, on our way south to Brighton, our holding station, and luckily for us, we thought, there was an air raid so we were stuck in London peeping at the blackout blinds in the carriage, looking at the searchlights, hearing the bangs of bombs, we thought it was great fun, very exciting: mind you we were only eighteen, nineteen. We were kept in Brighton for a while, in hotels, wating for our turn to go to a station. Occasionally a daring Me110 would come in, use machine guns on the windows of the hotels, we had to duck down. The beaches were full of land mines and a few of those exploded and pebbles shot through our windows. We were sent to AFU West Freugh which was near Stranraer, the port for Ireland. We were flying Ansons and we were bombing using infra-red camera, and a white spot would appear on the photograph at Conwy in Wales, Ronaldsway in Isle of Man and so on.
GT: Ron, just for the record, that you sir, you joined the RNZAF as an air bomber.
RM: I joined, I don’t know what I was going to be, as a pilot, I thought we’d all be fighter pilots cause those were the days of Battle of Britain. It wasn’t to be, they didn’t want fighter pilots, they wanted bombers, bomber crews and I was on a composite course, even though I said I wanted to be a pilot in the Bomber Command, they didn’t want me as a pilot, and I was put as an observer, a new category. In those days the bombing was not accurate. Mind you the navigation aids were very, very poor and bombs were spread round the country, and a lot of us were put as bomb aimers. In Canada we didn’t get a B for bomb aimer, we got an O observer because we’d done navigation courses.
GT: That was your brevet you’re talking. You’re talking about your brevet.
RM: I was on the Milton Ontario navigation course and we flew Ansons up the Lawrence river to St John and we couldn’t understand what was going on, everybody spoke French, everything was written in French, the shops all spoke French - we were in France and that was exciting too. Anyway, jumping across to Britain, we finished our course at AFU and then we were sent to Number 11 OTU Westcott where a lot of New Zealanders had gone through. We were on Wellingtons at that stage, they were great little planes, well fairly big we thought too. We had ten new crews and we crewed up which was an amazing business. We were put in a hangar and after a little speech we were told we had a couple of hours to crew up. Anybody not crewed up in two hours would be put in a crew. Our crew was young. I knew the navigator from Seagrove, way back in New Zealand. He was just turned nineteen, and I was just turned nineteen so we got a pilot who was just turned nineteen, or was he twenty. We had a, an air gunner who was very good, but after a while he said I think you’re too young for me, I want a bit of a lark on leave, I don’t have a lark with you, so he pulled out and we lost our other gunner as well. Next we were moved on to HCU Chedburgh on Stirlings and there we had to pick up two gunners and the two we were given were identical twins which was most unusual because even brothers were not supposed to fly together, they’d separate them. They were so identical we couldn’t tell them apart, although the navigator could because he was going to be a dentist and he could tell by their teeth, so we made one wear a pocket knife on his belt. So there’s Willy and Henry and they came from San Paulo, Brazil, which again was most unusual. They were of Scottish background though, their father had worked in San Paulo. From Stirlings, which are huge aircraft we moved on to LFS Lanc Finishing School on to Lancasters: they were beautiful aircraft. Everybody liked the Lancaster, they were so easy to fly. There were no problems with the Lancaster: they reckoned they could overshoot on two engines and land on one engine if they had to, I don’t know that’s right or not, but that’s what they told us. After a short course there and lots of fun on the Lancaster we moved on to 75 New Zealand Squadron. We were asked whether we wanted to join that squadron, I wanted to I think most of the rest of the crew wanted to join as well. Was some beginning, was about two days after D-Day and three crews had finished their tour of thirty ops and I think it was the first time crews had finished a tour at that stage of the war for about three months so we were realising that the war was really on and not just as much fun as we thought it was. We trained, we were accepted. One interesting thing, our pilot is supposed to do a second dickie, that is a trip in the right hand seat before he takes his crew on an operation, but we were called off to pick up a new aircraft at our headquarter station at Westbridge, which we did and then to our horror we found the crew that Jake was supposed to fly with were missing, so he would have been missing.
GT: Who was your skipper? What was his name?
RM: John Aitken. His initials were JK so he was always Jake. Our wireless operator had been best man at a wedding and that poor feller went missing on that trip too, he’d only been married about three weeks so the war was real. We did our first operation, which was a learning experience. Everything went very well until we got close to the target, then everything started to happen at once. There was a jolting of the aircraft, so close to us at night time of course, no lights, dodging aircraft, dodging shells, taking your turn to bomb, the flak, the searchlights, quite a memorable experience. A lot of crews went missing on their first five operations through lack of experience. So we did our best. Our crew by the way, seven of us, the oldest was twenty, lots of people were eighteen, nineteen and twenty, lots of aircrew, but we were the only crew I’ve ever heard of, all seven were under twenty, were under twenty one.
GT: Ron, you had already had a crash before you arrived on squadron. What was that about?
RM: Yes, OTU Westcott, we found that pretty tough going. We lost four crews by the way, through inexperience and through bad luck. In fact we had a very dicey one. We took off from Oakley, which is a satellite, flew towards Brill Hill and I saw John place his feet on the wheel and press. I yelled, ‘what are you doing?’ He said, ‘put your feet up too!’ So we both pushed on the wheel to try and get the nose down, but the nose was up too high and the airspeed was coming down. We staggered and this red light of Brill Hill got closer and closer, we couldn’t go any faster cause we were, the angle of attack was too high, then John suddenly realised he had to put the wheel, put us nose heavy and we staggered across very, very low and he said to me later on, the trim wheel, there’s a knob at the top, that shows as right, and he had, on checks, he touched the knob at the top, was right, he didn’t know it had been turned three sixty degrees putting it tail heavy. That’s the sort of thing that happened. I can remember another incident where oil pressures and temperatures were all wrong, so our screen engineer or screen pilot just got a screwdriver out and altered the clock and said that’ll be right, so some poor chaps in the aircraft after us’d also have oil and pressure problems. I don’t know, but at squadron level things were very efficient and we got into the routine: going down for breakfast in the mess. And I was an officer and so was John and so was the navigator Dunc, we had a wonderful time in the officers mess, there were so many young ones, there was a competitive spirit: there was table tennis, there was shove ha’penny and so on, darts. We also had mess parties when nothing was doing, always led by the Wing Commander, jackets inside out so no rank, trousers rolled up to the knees, all singing air force songs, the words were pretty shocking but we didn’t worry about the words, in out the windows, over the top of the piano, thumping on the floor under the tables, all doing follow the leader, all singing. There was a wonderful spirit on the squadron. And of course on ops people go missing and when you’d come back from a trip, you’re being debriefed, you look up at the board, can see the words overdue, landed was good, landed, landed, overdue and if you’re one of the last to be finished with the intelligence officers it could be missing. Actually we were reported missing once, because we were overdue. Ten and a half hours, across Denmark, across Sweden – which was neutral - to Gydinia which is near Danzig, laying mines. We had to go over Hell. Hell was the naval base, and they gave us hell. We were coned with searchlights, there was flak – a lot of it - and John, the pilot, thought we must have been holed by the flak, we couldn’t have lasted that long, so he and the engineer organised, they cut down the speed, they were a bit worried about the motors, didn’t do much good to them at our speed, so we came home slower and that’s why the trip was ten hours thirty and we were a bit overdue. Well, I still remember some of those ops, vividly, Do you want me to go on Glen? Russelsheim, which is on the Main river, we were going after submarine parts, delicate instruments, gyroscopes and so on. We were in the second wave, so ten minutes from the target which is about thirty three miles - we dealt in miles in those days - there was a glow, a yellow glow ahead, had to be the target, so for ten minutes we were flying along this eerie, you know, corridor, there were planes up high dropping parachute flares which fluttered down slowly, turning everything yellow, ever so many slim black blips around us, they were the bombers, keeping the same height, same speed, same direction. The little black dots which were darted all over the place, they’d be enemy fighters, there were lots of exchanges of fire, I could see necklaces of tracer, the red flashes amongst the fight as the fighters sprayed the bombers and the bombers returned the fire. As we got closer and closer, we got into the searchlights, forest of them waving very deadly and then they would catch on to a plane, cone it, especially the master cone which would be a pale colour by radar and the poor aircraft would flutter all over the place up and down and sideways, try to get escape. Very often it caught fire and went down slowly, occasionally there was a bang in the sky, a bright light and then nothing. By this time the flak was pretty heavy too. The flak was our height, they had us on radar. The black grey parts with reddish bits in it, they were really [emphasis] dangerous, red hot metal was flying – shrapnel. The bigger white clouds, they were nothing to worry about, they were spent, just flak clouds. That was thick, the searchlights were heavy, the fighters were there, on the ground already there were pools of fire, and the pools were getting bigger and bigger, lakes of fire: the city was burning. Flak, the flak was flashing in all directions, no pattern to it, they were sparks. The lines of white lights they were the sticks of bombs dropping. Then there was the photoflashes. All the aircraft dropped a photoflash, and you had to do a straight and level, say, we had to do thirty five seconds after the bombing straight and level which was not very good because the fighters were active, and then our flash would go off, to record our aiming point. We could see buildings, the shapes of buildings in those flashes, and black lines which were streets. It was a kaleidoscope of, of action and colour. Meanwhile the Pathfinders were dropping TIs – Target Indicators – the whole world would go red and then the Master Bomber might say, we are all bombing five miles short, next wave drop your greens two seconds later. So the greens would come on, the whole world would go green. There was certainly action, things I will just never forget. I was fascinated at this kaleidoscope, I stuck my eyes on the window after doing my own bombing, waiting for the photoflash, I couldn’t leave it alone, I just watched and watched. It was awesome. A lot of a death and destruction, mind you we couldn’t see anybody dying, we couldn’t see anybody getting hurt or buildings getting destroyed. We were remote up here and it was fascinating, I’d never seen anything like it. And finally, we could turn away the camera told me that the photoflash had gone off, we turned off and I was still watching out of the side window at the target and we got into friendly darkness, which was relief in a way I suppose. Fear, fright, of course fear is natural, but we had to do our duty, we couldn’t let our crew down and we had to suppress fear and duty would win. I suppose you could call that courage if you like, but we got used to it and we were young, we were so lucky. I never lost a night’s sleep over worrying, actually not, in my later years again I‘ve never lost a night’s sleep my whole life about bombing cities. These days there are lots of critics because we were aerial bombing, we were bombing the coloured Pathfinder flares. Industries of course were scattered right through a city, and around industries there were lots of workers’ homes. And a lot of workers would be working in transport centres and we bombed transport centres. Yes, war is horrifying, but once you’re in to a war, you’ve got to win it, and that was one war which had to be fought. It wasn’t economics. It wasn’t politics. Hitler and his gang of Nazis, you know, very, very horrifying story, concentration camps, the Jewish camps. These memories are quite vivid still. I could tell you about Kiel, the naval base, again I remember that. Our skipper, John Aitken was a very conscientious pilot, one trip, it was Beauvoir, I remember that because was, in French a good look, there’s a lot of cloud around so the Master Bomber over the mic would tell us to orbit port, which we did, and then bomb by any means possible. And that to John was the dive spiralling down to the ground. We went tail back, nose first, right down and the cloud broke at about two thousand feet above the ground and I had only seconds to give some instructions. We bombed the target but a stick of bombs crossed us as we’re trying to bomb, and it’s true, I could see the writing on the bomb, the number. I was too shocked with fright to record it, and the stick of bombs missed both engines, crossed the wing; the crew were shouting by this the time, the two gunners and the wireless operator who was in the astrodome. We got out fast, we were very, very lucky. It made us think that aircraft below the bombers were very vulnerable. We had many, many things to think about. At Villiers-Bocage, at Normandy, again, there was cloud cover, we knew our own troops were very close, we had to be very accurate. We were told to orbit port - this was a daylight by the way - the Americans had immaculate formations; we were a shambles, we did night flying at daytime so the planes wobbling about all over the place, above us, below us, ever so close and we did this big whirl of shambles, I’ll never forget that. Then the clouds opened up a wee bit and we bombed very carefully so we wouldn’t bomb our troops, and my photograph showed two planes way down below that obviously been the Master Bomber and his deputy, they also took huge risks. Yes, we had frights, but being young, I think excitement took over from being scared and we were very busy. We were very busy from take off to when we came back; we never relaxed. Our crew had decided that getting through a tour was near impossible, that almost half were killed, went missing. We were doing our best to survive, by obeying our orders absolutely, not taking any unnecessary risks, by doing our duty as well as we could and if we were to go down, we would take a lot of Germans with us. By that time there was supreme realism, we just knew what the odds were. People had rituals, lucky charms, we had nothing like that. In fact one chap gave me a last letter to send home, I tried to say well I’m doing the same trips as you are! And I always felt fatalism like that leads to carelessness, you make your mind up you won’t survive. He went missing shortly after giving me the letter. We had no rituals except of course by the tail wheel before we got on to the aircraft to relieve ourselves: that was the only ritual we had. Bomber Command was a great life really: the chaps were wonderful, the food in the officers mess was wonderful, our leaves were wonderful. Lord Nuffield had paid for us to go to one of the top hotels and we went to St Ives, Cornwall. People in the streets would look at you, see your New Zealand flash, and the British are pretty reticent and conservative – ‘good on you, good on you, give them hell, give them hell!’ And every day in the newspapers, the headlines would be we bombed Berlin, we bombed Hamburg, we bombed Nuremburg, and so on and that brought the British morale up. There’s certainly no faint hearts in those days The British people were right behind us and we couldn’t understand after the war when there were so many critics of what we had done. We had the highest losses of any Allied military force. That only two per cent of bomber crew of the military forces, two per cent, we were given forty percent of Britain’s resources because Churchill, as part of his “few speech” had said looking around: the Navy can’t hit Germany, the Army which had now been evacuated, certainly couldn’t hit Germany, the fighters couldn’t hit Germany, the only way through must be Bomber Command bombing Germany. And that’s what we did and we, our bombing trips from the first day, September ‘39 to the end of the war in May 1945, people bring up names like Dresden. Yes, Dresden was awful, a lot of things about Dresden we don’t know, were never made public, but I think the people in charge knew a lot more than we did, we were just told it was going to be Dresden I wasn’t on that trip, I’d finished long before, but people tell me they’d never heard of Dresden china, they never heard of Dresden arts, it was just another trip, and that unfortunately tainted Bomber Command. People forgot that Japan had got far more Dresdens. They had a hundred Dresdens in Japan. Name a city: it was a Dresden. They firebombed, the superforts from Taiwan, and they did a great job, as we did in Bomber Command.
GT: Ron, 75 Squadron had a reputation. They had a very high loss rate across the five years of their bombing operations and 75 Squadron was nicknamed the chop squadron. Did you see or know of that on the squadron at the time you were there?
RM: Yes. A lot of people, lot of New Zealanders didn’t want to come on 75. They also felt if they went on an English squadron they’d be spoilt [unclear] and as a New Zealander – we were never called Kiwis by the way, you were Newzies, Aussies and Newzies - that’d be something unusual on an squadron they’d be invited to English homes. But I wanted to go to the 75. We were called the chop squadron, we knew that. Our Wing Commander pushed press on regardless and he himself lost an engine on take off and flew a whole trip on three engines, he certainly wasn’t a come back. And anybody who returned early through failures were really put on the mat, so we were almost scared to come back if intercom had gone, or a motor had gone, and that contributed, yes, to being a chop squadron.
GT: And you were on the squadron at the time 75 lost seven aircraft on one night.
RM: Correct, that was Hamburg, oil refinery in the Ruhr. We didn’t fly on that trip because John had a bad cold. We woke in the morning and there were about five beds missing from our hut. So we went outside, and there were the chaps coming outside from the next door neighbour’s hut and we’ve got five missing too and so on, right down the lines of our nissen huts. We knew something bad had happened. Seven aircraft went missing that night and some of them were very senior pilots, almost finished their tours. It was the highest loss any squadron during the war.
GT: From one sortie, from one raid.
RM: Yes. Now you think about the Battle of Britain, which lasted four or five months, they lost a lot of pilots, but Bomber Command lost on one night, Nuremburg actually, they lost about a hundred aircraft and it was about seven hundred people. A few escaped with parachute. There were second dickies on that trip. Yes Bomber Command lost in one night enormous number of people. 75, Hamburg was our bad night.
GT: Now towards, well, on your twenty seventh trip you, you were wounded. Can you describe and tell us about your experience there please?
RM: Yes, was an easy trip and we’d had some tough ones, in Normandy, flying bomb, we were coming in beautifully, bit of cloud around and I noticed flak on our port, coming towards us. I said to the pilot: ‘skipper there’s flak coming, our height, it’s probably radar, it’s coming closer, can you see it?’ He said, ‘yes, I see it.’ He didn’t move an inch, he kept on going towards the target, and inevitably we were engulfed [pause] and my eyes were pretty sore and I couldn’t see too well and I rubbed my face and it was prickly and blood, but nothing to do, I didn’t say anything, but the engineer caught an eye on me and he said I think the bomb aimer’s been hit and John immediately called, ‘are you all right?’ I said, ‘yes I’m okay.’ And we bombed the target but the bomb release wouldn’t work. I pressed and pressed, it wouldn’t work. So I said jettison bars across and of course the whole bomb load went at once, we’d overshot by that time and the plane of course lurched like anything, it jumped up with all the bombs releasing at once and then I looked over at my controls on the right hand side: [cough] it was smashed. No wonder the bomb sight wasn’t working. Later on I was given some of those broken parts of the bomb sight. I was lucky because my windows had been smashed of course and shrapnel had missed my face and destroyed the bomb sight [cough] and I was lying over my bomb sight, so that’s what happened and then the crew came to see me in hospital, and I think one of them said, a bit embarrassed, I think you’ve won the prize of the races, I said what’s that? He said you’ve got the DFC which was a big surprise to me.
GT: And the award for your DFC was an immediate?
RM: Yes, immediate for the action, from carrying on, 75 pressing on regardless. We had a song about pressing on regardless. We had songs about most things.
GT: So your, your eyes were affected by the splinters of the Perspex, and they still are?
RM: I couldn’t hear that.
GT: The Perspex had splintered into your eyes and you are still affected by that today.
RM: Yep. I had many operations in the Littleport hospital, and yes, I’ve got the dust of Perspex in my eyes still. It doesn’t seem to worry me. And a strange thing, they realised that Perspex was compatible with eyes, hence lenses, contact lenses fitted into eyes, they were Perspex.
GT: Were you a bit of guinea pig for these operations?
RM: Not meaning to. And they gave me penicillin, which was pretty scarce in those days, only just been discovered. My face was full of splinters, eyes unfortunately. I didn’t wear goggles. Perhaps I should have. I could tell you lots more about Dave Moriarty and so on.
GT: Your time then, so, John Aitken was your skipper.
RM: Yes.
GT: Where did Dave Moriarty come into the picture?
RM: It was the Caligny raid. Dave Moriarty was John Aitken’s best friend, on course, both pilots and during the raid on Caligny - it was a fantastic raid - we went over the Normandy beachhead, and I just couldn’t believe it, there was no water, just ship, ship, ship, ship, no enemy fighters, the Mulberry harbours, which were artificial harbours put out for bigger ships to come in. But boats were going to and fro, you couldn’t see much water, and we flew low level over the front and there were the Germans, there were tanks, things were flying at us, we saw the German helmets, they were ducking for cover, and a few seconds later we were over the British front line, with their tin hats. It was so thrilling, but unfortunately John Aitken said, something’s happened to so-and-so aircraft, that’s Dave, Dave Moriarty’s aircraft. So he’s most anxious to find out what happened to that aircraft. Speaking to the crew later on - and I was I was in the hospital with Dave – so I knew him pretty well at Littleport, he was, a bit of flak had gone through his eye and come out his head, but he was still able to see a little bit out of the one, the other eye, although it was weeping in sympathy. Ian Ward, the bomb aimer who was one of my best friends, he said they knew that Dave had been hit and Dave had said don’t tell the crew: they’ll get worried. So Ian and the engineer between them called airspeeds and heights and Dave more or less flew on the seat of his pants, without instruments. They talked, they didn’t want the crew to know, but Dave Moriarty was absolutely convinced he was going to try and land it. His eye was dangling out of, out of his head and somehow he landed it. Wasn’t a good landing they tell me, but it came down and the crew were safe. The crew idolised Dave, I met Dave Fox and so on, Bluey Montgom, we knew the crew very well, and they always called him skipper all the way through life until they died, till about eighty something.
GT: Dave Moriarty only died recently and Dave Fox is still alive, so.
RM: Great fellow. He got a conspicuously gallant medal which is the NCO equivalent of the DSO, would have got a VC for what he did.
GT: Only three were awarded that award, GSM, on 75 Squadron: he was one.
RM: That’s right and I knew all three. One was the bomb aimer who landed his plane, at Marsham Downs, that’s right, in Salisbury. He’d never done any pilot training but he got his crew down. Oh yes, the other was Sillwood.
GT: On D-Day Ron, when you flew over the beachheads, 75 Squadron did two raids that day. Were you on both of them or just one?
RM: Just one raid.
GT: Okay. Now did the RAF bombers bomb all of the beachheads or just some?
RM: We didn’t bomb the beachheads. In fact we were not allowed near the beachheads because the, they’d fire any plane that came close. Like navy, navy’d fire at everything in the air. We were allowed on the beachheads this time and they were told below, the Lancasters were coming across. No we never bombed the beachheads, but we bombed the fighting inland. Sad, but Villers-Bocage.
GT: There is a movie out shows B17s bombing the beachheads.
RM: I wouldn’t go much on the movies. They did Dambusters and the guy who took the part, he was about fifty. Richard Todd I think.
GT: So once you were wounded you obviously couldn’t go back on to operations so how long did you spend in hospital.
RM: NO. My eyes were still damaged, and I’d promised the doctor at Littleport I wouldn’t fly on ops again until he said it was okay. I went back several times to Littleport because I had pains in the eyes and had more operations. That happened several times.
GT: Did your crew carry on without you or did they finish?
RM: They carried on, and they said it was pretty tough going too. They only had three to go and the three of them were tough. Yes, I would have been very worried if anything happened to them on those three. I knew my crew very well. I knew them after the war. Of course John and Duncan and I, John lived in Gisborne, Duncan lived in Opunake the three of us would go and cray fishing on the coast, pig hunting, trout fishing. We had a glorious time until those two got married and it changed things. And then the others: I went to Britain ever so many times, I think about eighteen times I went to Britain after the war and I stayed with the twins in Norfolk quite often.
GT: Now what was their names again, Ron?
RM: Monk, William and Henry Monk. And then I, Gordon Grindley, I stayed with him. He was north of London, at St Albans and then at Watford. I knew them, they were all great chaps.
GT: So how did you come home from England after the war? By ship? And what ship?
RM: On the Andes. We took off from Southampton, we had Lincolns flying across to say goodbye to us. They were training for J Force at that time. We broke the record to Freemantle, Australia and then on to Melbourne, still a record for any ship, and then we broke the record across the Tasman for the slowest journey ever. It was Labour weekend and the races were on and the watersiders had refused to land us. So the boys had big signs up “Welcome Home, Except on Labour Day”. And the Minister of Defence - Jones was his name - the guys pelted him with eggs when he was making his speech of welcome. The captain was roaring: ‘stop that, stop that!’ We polite officers did nothing, just watched. And then we came into Littleton and the ship was too big to get into the harbour but somehow it got in, and then we went to Wellington and we were quite amazed at Britain, at the New Zealand shops: tin verandas, tin iron roofs, so different from Britain and we were a wee bit disappointed. Now, some people had great trouble settling down after the war. I had no trouble whatsoever: the war was over, I got on with life.
GT: Some have commented that, a lot of the ladies that were left back in New Zealand, and families, didn’t want to know what you did.
RM: That’s right.
GT: And when you guys came home, you just closed up in little boxes and just kept it all.
RM: Apparently some of the early guys who came home, some great fellows, [cough] started to say things like: oh, you don’t know what flak is, you don’t know what defence is, this is just easy, you should have seen what we went through in Europe. That was not at all [emphasis] popular, these guys were demoted; there was no place for them in RNZAF. You had to be very, very tactful but it was true, we lost more planes one night than all [emphasis] the planes, all the deaths in the air war, in the Pacific, but we didn’t want to remind people at home about that. One of the great guys was Dick Bolt, Dick was patron of the Bomber Command Association, I knew Dick very, very well, he was a modest guy. He knew what went on.
GT: Well the Ohakea air base has a very beautiful new building named in his honour.
RM: Have they?
GT: Yep, they’ve kept his name alive of the Royal New Zealand Air Force because he became Air Marshall.
RM: On our trip in 2012, I was president of the Bomber Command Association leading them our fellows, there were thirty one of us and we had a wonderful time. We saw the Queen open the, the statues at Green Park, the Bomber Command Memorial. We were in the front rows and we saw all the Royal Party arrive - there ever so many of them. There were very few RAF because the government still [emphasis] would not support Bomber Command. Churchill put his back to us. I was in the air, illegally by the way. I’d gone back to 75 Squadron as an instructor on the link trainer. I got a trip, a Manna trip dropping flour at Rotterdam because the Dutch were starving and we flew very low level across the water, across Holland, dropping our flour and I heard a broadcast, the wireless op had turned on the radio and Churchill, [in Churchill tine] ‘we must thank the boys of the fighter command, we must thank the boys of the navy,’ and they mentioned the Graf Spey. ‘We must thank our paratroops’ – think of the poor red devils, and so on and so on. He thanked the fighter for the Battle of Britain. He did not mention Bomber Command. It was official speech and apparently Arthur Harris, head of Bomber Command, was angry and questioned him on this and Churchill was just evasive, a new election was coming up and there’s a whole civilian sympathy for the dead in the cities and Bomber Command, much to our amazement was in disgrace, after all we had done. We just couldn’t understand it. I can remember some, such wonderful fellows saying to me was it all in vain? I only wish they had lived long enough to see the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park. Strangely there was a pop singer, one of the Bee Gees, Robin somebody.
GT: Gibb.
RM: Started it all – he had a relative in Bomber Command, and then the Daily Express got on of it and another couple of newspapers, and millions went in. Now I went back, as I told you, in 2012 to see the wonderful memorial.
GT: I was there with you.
RM: And next day we went back, have a look and it was covered in flowers and covered in little notes pinned on it and the government says don’t do this, we’ve got to clean it up but it still happens. There are so many out there. Fifty five, fifty six thousand aircrew died in Bomber Command and there are so many uncles, aunts, nieces, nephews, children, grandchildren still remember what happened. And every day, even today, they put notes and crosses on the Bomber Command Memorial. So despite politics, what those in charge condemned Bomber Command, we feel what we did was very, very important. I always remember an intelligence officer on our squadron, 75. Some of the boys were being disturbed, look we’re bombing cities, women and children. In fact one of the navigator’s hair was black; it turned white in two weeks. I’ll never forget that. The intelligence Officer had us all together and he said you boys are doing more than your share to end this war as quickly as possible and every day you shorten that war, you’re saving hundreds of lives. You will win respect in the end, you’re doing far more than your share. And that was very helpful. Years later after the war, I met, I’m trying to think of his name, the VC.
GT: Les Munro?
RM: The one who had the homes for the cancer society, he did a hundred ops, it’ll come to me, that’s silly. I heard him speak and he said - in New Zealand - I don’t want any questions about the war, I want to tell you about what we’re trying to do with these homes for incurable cancer people, but of course inevitably somebody did say, do you regret bombing cities? And I’ll always remember his words. Of course I do, I regret, I regret very much having to bomb the cities, But, he said, imagine if a gangster ever, terrorist came in the wings of this theatre now with a machine gun started spraying you with machine guns, what should I do? Just let you die? What we did was, I’d take out that gangster as quickly as possible, by any means possible, and that’s exactly what Bomber Command did. That was very impressive.
GT: It was the understanding of air power.
RM: Yeah. It’s very hard for people in post war to understand war. War is horrible, but you avoid it wherever possible. This is a war that could not be avoided: had to be fought.
GT:: One major thing that has consumed the Bomber Command and its history from World War Two story is that of the issuing, or the non issue, of medallic recognition for you chaps. You’ve been very vocal on that in the last while. What’s your feeling in reference to the Bomber Command Clasp and the lack of a medal for you guys.
RM: The Bomber Clasp was an insult. We deserved our own medal. Forty percent of resources went onto that. By the way, the VC was Leonard Cheshire. [Pause] Yes. I’ve lost my train of thought.
GT: Bomber Command Clasp and a medal for Bomber Command.
RM: Oh, the clasp. It wasn’t enough. We didn’t get our own war medal; just two percent doing all this to win the war. You know Bomber Command sank more submarines than the navy and right through they did so much, [pause] and the sacrifice was so big. They gave us a clasp after so many years, most of the chaps never got one of course. The French were better, they gave Legion of Honour, but that was a long time later too.
GT: And that’s been a big struggle, Legion of Honour too.
RM: Say slowly.
GT: The Legion of Honour has been a big struggle, and I have put up for six medals for six gentlemen and only three have received theirs, so that too is distinct, but for the Bomber Command Medal that should have been there are still people that are fighting that fight for you.
RM: I agree entirely. The Legion of Honour was narrow, for those who helped liberate France after D-Day and liberate Paris. But all those boys who died before D-Day, they were fighting to liberate France in a way too. That was a very narrow business. I was one of the lucky ones to get one but so many better ones than me missed out.
GT: Your Presidency as the Bomber Command New Zealand Association - how long were you President for and what was one of the good things that you come, that came from that?
RM: I was President for seven years. This 2012 trip to see the Memorial opened by the Queen, I had a ring on the telephone from Bunny Burrows who was the President, he said I’m getting old and I need some help and this is coming up would you help me? I said of course Bunny, I’ll help you any way I can. Next thing I knew Peter Wheeler had announced I was the vice-president and straight after that it was announced that I was now President.
GT: And for the record Mr Peter Wheeler is the Executive Officer for the New Zealand Bomber Command Association. He is not a veteran.
RM: Bunny thanked me, and I found that I was brand new at the job, and every time we did anything on that trip - and we went for two weeks - I had to make a speech and it had to be different things each time of course. That was quite a strain on me from enjoying the trip, but I struggled through. After that I found making speeches quite easy; I was well-practiced. As our Museum Commemoration services and then our newsletters, I always try to make my President’s remarks sincere and original.
GT: For the record there, the 2012 unveiling of the Green Park Memorial New Zealand, Australia and Canada supplied aircraft and there were veterans that were included to attend that memorial service. I assisted from the New Zealand Air Force side of things and the 75 Squadron way and Ron, you were part of a team of thirty one who went over, with the Chief of the New Zealand Air Force, Mr Peter Stockwell.
RM: Yes, Canadians treated them very well. They’d handfuls of little badges to give away for example, handfuls of them. I came home with I don’t know how many Canadian badges. The Australians didn’t do much until New Zealand moved, but fortunately for us our Prime Minister decided to help and I think Peter Jackson was also busy there too, the film maker. Yes. The Australians followed because New Zealand was doing something, we had a special aircraft to take us across. We had five stops, overnight stops, which I don’t know if that was good or not - we used to take off in the dark, early morning. That was wonderful in a way Darwin, Kuala Lumpur, Dubai and so on.
GT: It’s okay, you were flown by the New Zealand Air Force in its 757 with a VIP fit, and that was very fitting too.
RM: Yes, John Key the Prime Minister, I thanked him personally for that. Aussie followed us, the Canadians were in force and I said earlier, the poor Brits had to make their own way to London, pay their own fees, pay their own board because the Conservative Government didn’t like Bomber Command; that all came after Churchill. I know there’s lots of controversial things, but I think this International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln is on the right lines. The University at Lincoln only came into on the understanding it’ll be wide open to all points of view, not just supporting Bomber Command. Critics of Bomber Command are just as welcome and they of course are full of latest technical resources, recording resources and they put their hearts into it as well. It’s a wonderful business and I am lucky to have this chance to say something about my little part in the war and many, many others having the chance to say something and what a shame that majority will never get this chance.
GT: Ron, you are amongst some the few that produced your own story and you have named it “Bombs on Target”.
RM: Yes, I didn’t name it that. I had great trouble getting that done. I offered the manuscript to New Zealand. they wouldn’t touch it, but it was bombing cities so I went to Britain and unfortunately the firm that I had a contract with lost money and decided not to print so I had lawyers threatening them, to sue, it passed through about four or five hands until it was printed and it met a very good reception.
GT: So it was first published in 1991.
RM: Yes.
GT: By Patrick Stephens Limited and on the dust jacket it shows as Sixteen quid is the price.
RM: It took many years of research. People wondered where I got all the detail of each trip. I used the navigation logs from my navigator. I used my own Bomber Command H2S logs because I used to work H2S and I did a lot of interviews and a lot of reading research and I tried to make the book original, a bit different. I tried to break in every slang word we had, once only, not too often. I didn’t want wizard prang all the way through it, I didn’t want wilco out all the way through it. But they’re all in there, just glimpses these, and many people have written to me about it and I now know how Uncle Peter lived. It’s the first time I realised. My wife and I, Kath and I, went to the station many years later and we went to the local pub.
GT: Yes, this is RAF Mepal?
RM: No, was Witchford, no, it was Sutton, was Sutton, on the boundary, a lovely stocky church, Norman church and we met an old lady, when I say old, about my age, arranging flowers on the pews and I happened to mention that I was here in wartime and she said, ‘oh you were naughty boys,’ and I said, ‘naughty? I know my wife’s eyes rose with that, ‘yes, those songs you sang in the pub!’ And when I came to think of it, those songs, some of them weren’t very nice, but we just didn’t think of the words, we were just singing together, morale. I went to the Sutton pub another time. I said where’s all the guys’ black ties we had up there? We used to dip it into beer, suck his tie, try to chew it off, then cut it with scissors and put it up. We had about three or four hundred ties up there, most of the chaps dead. Oh, we got rid of that stuff years ago, when we took over the pub. Didn’t mean anything.
GT: Was that Chequers?
RM: Chequers pub, Sutton, you know the pub.
GT: Yes, been there. And then you had the Three Pickerels.
RM: That’s Mepal, that’s on the river. I still remember the pubs. Funny thing, I never drank my early days, even my wings party in Canada I never had a drink. It was at Westcott and the CFI – Chief Flying Instructor - was a chap called Fraser Baron, he looked as young as we were. And he’s sitting at the top table, got bit bored, and he saw us about same age and he came and sat with us and we thought this is wonderful and Fraser said what are you drinking, I said oh this orange. He said I’ll get you another orange and there’s a Wing Commander getting a lowly Pilot Officer an orange drink. And I liked it and said but what was in it, something else? Oh just a double gin! That was after about three trips for more oranges, and I realised that all these double gins hadn’t hurt me at all and quite liked them!
GT: Well, your book’s “Bombs On Target” and the dust jacket has the words “a compelling eyewitness account of Bomber Command operations” by Ron Mayhill, DFC and the front cover picture of a Lancaster which is a painting which you have hanging here in your apartment.
RM: It’s in my aisle there, yes.
GT: You and I have taken photographs in front of it before and it’s a fascinating painting.
RM: It’s a painting by an artist in Gisborne for John Aitken. He did several and John Aitken didn’t want them all and gave me one.
GT: And the number on the aircraft’s AA-U for Uncle.
RM: AA U Uncle, yes.
GT: And U Uncle was your aircraft?
RM: That was our aircraft.
GT: Fascinating.
RM: Crews don’t get their own aircraft until they’ve done a few ops. You know, gen crews. So you’ve got to earn your, and be lucky enough to do, say a dozen ops and then it’s your aircraft.
GT: Keep the same one, yeah. For the record here the ISBN number for those who will look for your book Ron, is 1-85260-274-0 published in 1991 and it is certainly a fantastic, fabulous read and I thoroughly recommend if someone can find a copy of that, of Ron’s book. Now Ron, you have been talking to me now for nearly an hour and a half and it’s been a fascinating discussion. You, is there anything else that you recall that you would like to tell about, your time after the war, what you did in New Zealand after?
RM: Yeah, I told you I settled down, no problem, I went to University, did a BA, then went overseas. Friday night the boys used to meet at a pubs in Auckland and suddenly one said let’s go to England. Yeah, we’ve not enough money to go to England, because in those days no airlines, just shipping and somebody said I think Shaw Saville got an office up here somewhere, lets go and have a chat. So I went up to Shaw Saville on the Friday night and the person in charge just said ah yes, so many people want to go, I’ve got a list of a couple of hundred want to have a trip, work their way, there’s not much chance. Anyway we insisted, he said, give me your addresses, your phone number and he said you got passports and actually we had passports because we had been talking about going across anyway, saving enough money. That was Friday. The next day, Saturday, urgent call we’ve got the Temeraire leaving and we’re three short and we can’t find the crew. He said come down, I can’t get people from all over the country, you’re just here locally, come down and you probably won’t sail because the police will round them up, they know where to look, Mark Leeson for example, a certain pub, they’ve probably found a girlfriend. And even when we’re out in the channel on the pilot boat we’re told he’ll probably take us off and the crew the police have found put back in. But no, we sailed! So I had to send a urgent telegram to my school saying I wouldn’t be there next day [cough] and -
GT: And you ended up in England a couple of weeks later.
RM: And then when we got there, Shaw Saville said by law we’ve got to repatriate you to where you came from, but I know you want to stay in the country a while, don’t you, but if you leave your name, we’ll take you home, we won’t pay you, you’ll work for nothing, ah, we’ll give you a shilling or something so you won’t be slave and we’ll take you home more or less when you want to go home. So I stayed almost two years! I did three marvellous trips, this is 1950, 51, 52. Three marvellous trips, one to Scandinavia: Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, north Germany, each, that was an amazing trip – by car by the way - and then another trip but unfortunately I had gone to hospital cause I’d been working below water line in the heat, I was scrubbing floors with net that was very inflammable in front of the furnaces, the bakehouse. I was a bakehouse scullion, unfortunately I lost the toss and everybody got up one so the bakehouse scullion became a cabin boy and the cabin boy became steward, I had signed on as a steward and I went through as a bakehouse scullion. Then went another trip, Norway, I went to Portugal, North Africa, Tangier, Spain of course, France [cough] and then a third trip east, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Yugoslavia. In those days Yugoslavia had lost more people per population than any country except Russia. Everything was upside down in Yugoslavia. Tito was in charge. And we took our car in. Some places there were no roads across a river, we had to go across the railway bridge, bumping over the sleepers, inevitably a train came, so we were half way across, we met the train, the train backed off for us so we could go bump across. The all the train people got out and produced some wine: we had a bit of a party. This sort of things happened. I’d sent for my maps. There was one big city on the way to Belgrade, so we stopped there, it was muddy, looking for petrol station. There’s no petrol station in the big city. The only vehicles around were army vehicles, so we followed one army vehicle to the military camp, stopped by the sentries and I said petrol, cause I couldn’t speak Yugoslav. I could say dobra, dobradan. Churchilliski, petrol, petrol. No petrol, no petrol. Touristi, touristi, englishki, englishki, touristi, petrol No petrol. Ring ring ring, telephono Tito, telephono Tito. That got them buzzing round! So they gave me some petrol - in kilogrammes. I don’t know what I paid for it. They weighed it out for me. But telephono Tito did the job. I would haved have rung him up too if I could have, and we got to Belgrade where we did find some petrol. We were stopped by military police long before we got there, time after time because they were difficult days. The Serbs hated the Croats, they hated the Muslims of Herzegovina, there were seven different parts to Yugoslavia, they hated each other. No wonder they, it fell apart. I go on and on, lots of things.
GT: Yes. Fascinating stories, Ron.
RM: That was one trip after the war. I went back so many times because my son had gone over there, married over there, had a grandson over there: was a good excuse to go across.
GT: Well Ron, you’ve explained, you’ve discussed, you have told me some fascinating information: your history, your time on, through Bomber Command, and it has been a fascinating listen and I hope and I am sure that many people who now listen to your interview with the IBCC they have now a first hand account from what you experienced over the target and from your injuries and from your training. So, and I have one memory of you, you and I have been friends for ten or twelve years now, and it was at John Aitken’s funeral, and the family very kindly put me up and we managed to drive across to Gisborne and I arrived ten minutes before the funeral and I went up on stage to give my eulogy for him and then you came in behind me to give your eulogy for John, and we shared a room that night at their family.
RM: That’s right.
GT: And you remember you said to me Sarge, if I snore, I was out of there. And I had to admit, yes sir!
RM: You remember.
GT: I remember and I have very much appreciated your friendship over the years, and Ron, it’s been an honour and a pleasure to record your service and history now for the IBBC for you. So I think we should wrap it up now, and we’ve done the paperwork, I’ve listened to your fascinating story and I hope that others can now read your story in “Bombs On Target”, and is there any last words, I’ll leave you to do the last word on the recording. Thank you Ron.
RM: Looking back on a long life, I’m now ninety five. I lost a lot of friends in the war, I still think of them and war is horrible, but it did a lot for me. I was made an officer, I realise I had responsibilities. The things, the discipline never hurt me, I think it made me philosophical about life. I think I gained a lot from my experiences which has lasted me all this life: try to see the funny side of things, putting up with things without complaining and meeting any ups and downs, vicissitudes of life, equally. Life’s not always smooth but you can face these things and I think the air force taught me that; the death of my friends taught me that. That’s all.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Mayhill
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-03-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMayhillRD190307, PMayhillRD1901
Format
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01:35:34 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Mayhill was born in Auckland, New Zealand. He joined the Air Training Corp in 1941, automatically entered the Royal New Zealand Air Force in 1942, trained as a bomb aimer in Canada, and travelled on the Queen Mary to the UK in 1943. While flying Wellingtons at the Operational Training Unit, RAF Westcott, Mayhill formed a crew with pilot Jake Aitken, but the gunners pulled out due to the youth of the other members. Despite the rarity of brothers flying together, identical twins, William and Henry Monk, joined them at RAF Chedburgh, where they flew Stirlings before converting to Lancasters at No.3 Lancaster Finishing School, RAF Feltwell. The crew joined 75 Squadron based at RAF Mepal, undertaking operations between September 1944 and May 1945. He recalls the fascinating view of yellow flares, anti-aircraft fire, and searchlights from his window over Russelsheim, narrowly avoiding bombs dropped from an aircraft above at Kiel, and a daylight operation to Villers-Bocage. On his twenty-seventh trip, Mayhill's eyes were wounded by perspex splinters and he was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for successfully completing the operation. Despite the squadron’s reputation for heavy losses, he recalls rarely feeling nervous and enjoying downtime with his crew, whom he remained friendly with after the war. Finally, Mayhill describes his opinions regarding the poor treatment of Bomber Command and the process of writing his eye-witness account, 'Bombs on Target', published in 1991. He also expresses his approval of recent recognition and describes attending the Hyde Park memorial in 2012, as the President of New Zealand’s Bomber Command Association.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Anne-Marie Watson
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Suffolk
England--Norfolk
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Kiel
France
France--Villers-Bocage (Calvados)
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1991
2012
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
11 OTU
1653 HCU
75 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
Blenheim
bomb aimer
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Feltwell
RAF Mepal
RAF Westcott
searchlight
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1300/17898/AGreenJ190307.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Green, John
J Green
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Green (b.1921, 1213252 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 100 and 12 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-03-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Green, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GT: This is Thursday the 7th of March 2019 and I am at the home of Mr John Green, born 22nd September 1921 in Penge, South East London, England. John’s home is in Auckland, New Zealand. John joined the RAF in June 1942 as a drogue operator on the Isle of Man. Later, John volunteered for bomb disposal, and after fourteen months he volunteered for aircrew and trained as an air gunner in early 1944. From June 1944, John crewed up with pilot Flight Sergeant Leslie Flooder, or Podge, an Australian, at 30 Operational Training Unit, Hixon and then 1667 Conversion Unit at Sandtoft, Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell and then on to operations with 100 Squadron at Grimsby late October, completing sixteen operations and posted to 12 Squadron at RAF Wickenby for fifteen operations. All on Lancaster Mark III aircraft. John completed his RAF operational flying in May 1945 with a total of one hundred and eighty four hours, day and night flying. John, thank you for allowing me to interview you for the IBCC Archives, so please tell me why, and how, you joined the Royal Air Force.
JG: Right. Well, when war broke out, I, all your mates were joining up, and I think I was eighteen at the time and I thought myself well if I wait till I get called up they’ll put me in the Army, and I didn’t want to go in the bloody Army I said! So I went down to the recruiting centre and joined in the RAF just as an ordinary airmen, nothing special. They said okay, we will call you when we need you. I think it was another year gone by before they called me up.
GT: And what were you doing while you were waiting?
JG: I was working in engineering factory and when I got the call up I was posted to Blackpool for six weeks training, you know, fitness training and education and all that.
GT: But that was a far cry from you riding a bicycle wasn’t it?
JG: Yeah!
GT: What was the bicycle thing about?
JG: Oh, the bicycle, that was in one of me jobs, was, I was, what d’you call them, errand boy! That was when I left school at fourteen, I went as errand boy riding a bike with a big basket on the front delivering all the goods and that to people who’d bought them from the shops.
GT: And whereabouts did you grow up there, and born?
JG: In Penge. Grew up in Penge, joined, volunteered in Penge, and then I got posted from Blackpool, I got posted to the Isle of Man; a General Duties airman. And when I got the Isle of Man they wanted drogue operators, people to volunteer to fly, which you got an extra shilling a week by doing that which I was interested in, cause a shilling was a lot of money in those days!
GT: What was the role of a drogue operator?
JG: He dropped the drogue. In the bottom of the aircraft, mainly Lysanders, or whichever one I was in, you had a trapdoor. You open the trapdoor and in front of you, you had like a drum, a big drum with three metal drums on it, filled with wire and you used to clip one of these wire onto one of the drogues and try and drop ‘em out the aircraft, then you stood up and controlled the speed of the drum with a handbrake until you got near enough all you want out, you lock it up and then the aircraft used to fly around, towing the drogue, training all aircrew to fire at it.
GT: So the other aircraft would bead on to you and -
JG: On to the drogue and fire.
GT: Your log book states you flew Lysander, Fairey Battle, Anson and Blenheim aircraft and that was all with the drogue operations.
JG: No, Lysander and Fairey Battle, and what was the other one?
GT: Anson and Blenheims.
JG: No, Anson, Anson they done, I flew doing me camera work. Instead of guns, instead of having bullets, you had a camera and you used a camera firing. and the Blenheim, Blenheim was just a trip you wanted and I think it flew me, flew me I was going on leave.
GT: So that were the gunners flying, aircraft, to shoot at the drogues, the Defiants or aircraft like that?
JG: Yeah, any, could be even the Anson used to fly along the side, and they used to open the window and poke their cine camera out, or the guns out and if you had usually three gunners in your aircraft they had different colour bullets so when they got the drogue back, dropped back, into a, had a special field you should drop the drogue back then fetched it back to headquarters then they could count the bullet holes whether they were red, blue, black, or yellow, they knew how many hits you had.
GT: They just dipped the bullets into paint, didn’t they.
JG: Yeah, to get the colour bullet and that’s how they knew, and course with the camera, they had a cine camera. Because one day I was up there doing camera and I saw, I think it was an Anson coming along, towing, towing a drogue so I took a photo of me shooting this Anson down! I got a right bollocking for it! [Laugh] But good laugh, but it was such a good target, I said, it’s there. And I didn’t use a lot of film!
GTL Any close calls? Did any of the aircraft nearly shoot you down instead of the drogue?
JG: I think it happened once on our station, drogue operator got killed like that. Whoever was using it, instead of firing at the drogue away from the towing aircraft they fired while they were coming in and the bullets carried on and hit the towing aircraft.
GT: They were all three nought three machine guns, yes.
JG: Yes, 303s.
GT: So you liked that, is that something you wanted to carry on with or you went to volunteer for something else?
JG: No, I liked that, getting paid and then it came up they wanted volunteers, you get fed up with it as a youngster, wanted volunteers on this Bomb Disposal Unit so I thought oh, that’ll be a change, so joined that and I was posted to Bath, Barford Manor, that’s a country village outside of Bath in this big manor house what the RAF had commandeered. I spent I don’t know how long, quite a long time there, and from there I joined up from, into aircrew training.
GT: What explosives disposal training did you have?
JG: Bom disposal, oh just the lessons on the fuses and how defuse and listen, if they were ticking and that.
GT: So the bombs could have been ticking and did you have something to tell you?
JG: Oh yeah, you had like an instrument you got here, stuck on there and if it was ticking, if the fuse was ticking that meant it was alive, ready to go off. It’s timed.
GT: So what did you do?
JG: Run! [chuckles] Yeah.
GT: And if they wanted to dispose of them, how did they dispose of them?
JG: They had a disposal officer who used to go, get down a hole, and it was surprising, the bomb, could unscrew the cap which allowed him to get to the fuse and he could undo the fuse and slowly [emphasis] get it out to defuse the bomb.
GT: It was the officer doing that?
JG: Yes, that was the officer’s job.
GT: And these were mainly German bombs you were training on?
JG: They were practically all German bombs. A few of them were English ones where the plane, English planes had crashed.
GT: So did they send you out on daily, or night?
JG: Yeah, whatever it was needed. I mean when we wasn’t out digging up, or digging after the bombs, we were in the schools training, what to do, you know, learning all about it.
GT: Did you lose any men?
JG: No, not on bomb disposal.
GT: That’s good. So from bomb disposal you looked at aircrew and they obviously accepted you. Was it difficult to do?
JG: Yes, took a long time to get accepted. You had to go to school, you had to pass exams and that, for education purposes, and once you pass all them exams then you start your bomber training, your air gunner training.
GT: So when you were doing your training though, did they look back at what you did at school?
JG: No, no.
GT: Was it open to everybody? Everybody had to do that training. School.
JG: Well everybody who was going to be a gunner like, it might be my turn to go to the aircraft to take the guns out and take them to the armoury and then strip the guns and clean it all and check the barrel, cause on one occasion, that was I think after I shot down that Ju, when I clean and checked it, the barrel had no rifling left, was smooth, and the other three was okay, so that meant the barrel was useless, you had to put a new barrel in the gun..
GT: So did they choose you to be an air gunner or did you ask them that you wanted to be one?
JG: I chose, I chose to be an air gunner.
GT: And you had good eyesight, good health.
JG Yeah, I had good eyesight, hearing, everything was good and I didn’t, well I wasn’t intelligent enough to be a navigator, and wireless operator, I couldn’t stand that dat dat dat dat dat Morse code and of course the engineer you had to study specific engineer, studied all the instruments and the engines, navigator, that was the main job in the Air Force, was navigator. I think he was the most important man in the aircraft. I think he was more important than the pilot. He was the one who got you there and got you back, or told you, to get there and get back.
GT: Did you end up back on the Isle of Man in the aircraft doing the drogue shooting or did you do that at another place?
JG: No, I think we might, I’m not sure, no, didn’t land on the Isle of Man again. Once I left there I went to Waltham like the training stations, the different ones. The main two was Waltham and then Wickenby and then when I, that was it and when I was and waiting for demob I was at a RAF training unit for all new people coming in, joining in; I was in charge of the stores.
GT: So how long was your gunnery course?
JG: I don’t know, only by looking, offhand, you know, quite a long time, cause you used to start off wearing a cap with a white bit in.
GT: As a cadet.
JG: That signifies you’re a cadet for an air crew.
GT: Once you were, graduated and completed, that was what, late 1943?
JG: Yeah, the training.
GT: And you moved on to crew up somewhere?
JG: Yeah, Hixon, should be, should be 30 OTU, Hixon.
GT: And your log book shows that to be the 9th of June 1944 when you met there, on Wellingtons, so you met your future crew there.
JG: On Wellingtons, yes.
GT: So tell me about your skipper and your crew.
JG: He was, well what they used to do to crew you up, all the aircrew are posted to this aerodrome and when you come out, or in the mess for a meal, you meet all the other airmen. You get friendly with one, or they get friendly with you, and then by the time, I think it was only about, only about a week, I got friendly with the rear gunner, he wanted to be a rear gunner, I wanted to be mid upper, so then we met Barney, he’s the navigator, oh we met Podge walking round and we said, you go up to him and hi, you know, and have you got a crew, no I’m just getting crewed up. Did you want a couple of gunners? Yeah, he said, right, that was me and Jack and a pilot, carried on walking, we picked up the bomb aimer, navigator and a wireless operator, he was Australian, that was six of us and we done a lot of training there before we got posted to another station where all the engineers had been posted to and we made up our seventh member of the crew.
GT: What was the aircraft types that you did your OTU work with? Wellingtons?
JG: Wellington and Halifaxes, Halifax. It shows you there in the book how many Halifax, and then from that, Halifax, we went to er -
GT: Well your Conversion Unit was 1667 and you flew in Halifaxes there for about two weeks.
JG: Yeah. That’s right, that was coming off the Wellington onto that Conversion Unit and we flew Halifaxes and then from there we went to another station, Lancaster Finishing School.
GT: You only did five days flying for that!
JG: That’s all! Yeah, then that was it, then you were posted to your, you know, whatever squadron you were going to be; got posted to 100 Squadron
GT: You were 100 Squadron at Waltham and did your first operation on Cologne on the 31st of October, 1944.
JG: That was something I always remember about that first trip. We wasn’t, we wasn’t scared to start with, but we was once we was up there, but being in the mid upper gunner that had a three hundred and sixty degree turn, where you turned all the way round and when your guns got round and it was your own aircraft, they had something there where you couldn’t fire ‘em. But as I was turning round, I looked up the front the way we were going and all I could see was one big mass of red, where Cologne was alight, and the flashes of the flak and that exploding and all the FE, all, it frightened the bloody life out of me. I never, ever [emphasis] looked again where we were going to go, until after we left. That once, I only looked that once, and that was enough. I looked a couple of times, Heligoland is in there, that was towards the end, that was with the other pilot. And that was, there wasn’t a cloud in the sky, and there wasn’t a German fighter in the sky either. We could fly round there as if we owned it, you know, they just didn’t have the fighters left, not the Germans.
GT: Well John, I’ve just got a list of your crew and if you’ll allow me I’ll just quickly read them out, for the record here. Flying Officer Flooder, Australian Air Force pilot; Sergeant Barnes, RAF navigator; Sergeant Williams, RAF flight engineer; Flight Sergeant Maslin, Australian Air Force, wireless operator and Flight Sergeant Armstrong, RAF bomb aimer. And yourself Sergeant John Green, as RAF mid upper gunner, [dog barking] and the rear gunner was Sergeant Everly. So you stayed together for your first part of your flying, on 100 Squadron.
JG: The first fifteen ops, yeah.
GY: And for those fifteen ops.
JG: Until he got grounded.
GT: It was your skipper that was grounded, was that right. What was the story with him?
JG: After the Dresden raid there, it’ll be in the log book, after the Dresden raid we got back all right. Next night, next day they sent us down out Chemnitz after we’d done canals flying, we were put on, and the navigator, we’d been flying about an hour, and said I’ve had enough of this skipper, I can’t do my job, I’m too tired. So he come back, he told the pilot to come back and the pilot got the rollocking for it, for not carrying on, you know, regardless, dropping the bomb sort of thing.
GT: So he brought the bombs back to base.
JG: Yeah, and then what happened we got back to base you’ve still got all your bombs on, go out somewhere the North Sea and drop the cookie and we had to go and drop the cookie to get rid of it.
GT: Did you drop them armed? Were they armed when you dropped them? Did you make them explode or just?
JG: The cookie? No, we just dropped it. No, what the, there’s one op there, that, we dropped the bombs, and I’ve got it in, got: ‘Dropped cookie manually on spare’. That it? What happened there -
GT: It was the 15th of December 1944.
JG: Yeah. We got out and bombs away the pilot said, and then as we went away, he said, “Bluey,” that was the bomb aimer, Bluey, “are you sure all the bombs have gone, he said it feels heavy, the way it’s flying, so he said, “all right I’ll press all these switches, John will you get down and have a look?” So I get out the turret and look through a window in the floor of the aircraft and I could see the bomb. I said no, the bloody bomb’s still here! So they said right what we going to do? I’m sure it was the bomb aimer: let’s go round and drop it. And all of us: no you f-ing well don’t! We, no, we’re not going round there again! So I said to ‘em look, we’ve got to fly back, we’re gonna fly over, somewhere over Germany, you notify when we’re getting near where to the bomb aimer and skipper, when he gets out, I’ll drop it, I’ll pull the lever and drop it manually. And that’s what we done. We suddenly come up, there’s a town ahead, John, place called Spau in Germany, and then I’m talking to the bomb aimer and he’s saying, “right John get ready, get ready, when I tell you go, pull that lever, get ready, go!” Pulled the lever and the bomb dropped, and we just carried on. We just saw a big flash on the ground and that was it.
GT: What height would you have been at to do that?
JG: About fourteen, fifteen thousand feet. Cause we all, all [emphasis] of you kept above ten thousand.
GT: You’d have been on oxygen at the time.
JG: Yeah, yeah. Though when I, actually, what I done, get out my turret, and then at the side of your turret’s a small oxygen bottle, pull that out, clip it on to your oxygen mask so you’re on oxygen from the bottle, not from the aircraft. Yeah. That’s how they done it.
GT: And that was an eight thousand pound cookie.
JG: Yeah, er, four thousand pound cookie, but they finished up making them twelve thousand, that one they built, imitation up at MOTET haven’t they. They built that one. Must’ve made a bloody big ‘ole!
GT: So that was on the 15th of December, you did a further three operations there, 24th Christmas Eve, 1944.
JG: That’s when we landed at Rattlesden.
GT: Ooh! So tell me about that. What happened there?
JG: When we got back, I believe our engine caught fire.
GT: Ah, okay, was that from enemy damage, or did it?
JG: I don’t know, just so, put the fire out [cough] and when we get back it’s a bit foggy and that, and we didn’t have, only three engines, we didn’t have the mucking about, so we got ordered to land at Rattlesden. Rattlesden was American drome, and that’s when they pinched me bloody gloves, thieving bastards!
GT: Did the Americans not have much kit?
JG: No, they, Americans, course everything with the Americans was souvenirs. Course when we landed, we’d taken one, two, four pairs of gloves, the gunners had, and they were all left in the turret and of course we went you know, for a meal and briefing and for a meal, and then bed. When went up the next morning to fly back, we get to the aircraft and me gloves and that were gone and we couldn’t fly back cause our plane was unserviceable. I can’t, I believe it says there, come back as a passenger.
GT: So you lost all four pairs of gloves, to the Americans?
JG: Yes.
GT: Did they grab anything else?
JG: No, and they, I know when I come back and reported it, the CO, oh, I was put on a charge because losing your kit, and the officer who interviewed me over it was a New Zealander and he said, look he said, you couldn’t lock up. I said no, we had no locks on the door, he said so how the bloody hell can you, either take all your kit with you, how can you stop if you can’t lock the aircraft up? And he made a verdict of not, well, I wasn’t charged, it was dismissed and I was issued a new set of gloves. Through this officer, Wheatley.
GT: Your log book states that was about the 18th of November that that particular incident happened. You managed to get back to your home base. So what happened then with your skipper? You were telling me that your skipper -
JG: Yeah, well when we got back from the Chemnitz raid, you’ve got Chemnitz there, haven’t you, Dresden ten hours.
GT: Yup, what happened after that?
JG: We were flying, next day we flew to Chemnitz, and that’s when we returned, the pilot, the navigator said he was ill, that’s when they grounded the pilot, said his eyesight is not good enough to fly a four engined bomber, and he’d already done seventeen trips.
GT: So the pilot took the rap for the navigator’s -
JG: Yeah, more or less, yeah. He wasn’t, obviously, that was when the Station Officer, was a real cocky sod, but he come unstuck cause Podge, being Australian, imagine coming, going to Australia and saying this is what they’re gonna to do to me, because they kicked up a hell of a bloody stink.
GT: But the station officer’s accused your pilot of being -
JG: Lack of morale fibre, that’s what he was going to do, to stop him flying, but then I heard it was six months after, he was sent back to Australia.
GT: Did he fly again?
JG: In Australia he did, but I don’t know what though.
GT: But what happened when he went to London, to the Australian Consul?
JG: He went to Australia House, and course Australian, as they said, that’s the RAAF, it’s got nothing to do with you, and you’re on loan to him, he can’t make you lack of moral fibre and not only that you’ve done seventeen bloody ops, and course their, whoever’s in charge up there, he kicked a hell of a stink up. It’s getting to know the people who to kick up the stink with, and said this bastard’s not going to do this to one of my men, Australian. Next thing we knew, I think it was about, must have been about the second day, that next, we saw him, one of the crew saw Podge, he said oh he’s had to apologise to me, the CO, he’s had to apologise for what he said and done. It made him look a real right fool, cause everybody, all of it, all the news went round the squadron, about it.
GT: So that was coming up into mid February 1945 in your old log book, you’ve noted that your pilot was grounded. Was that the end of your time on 100 Squadron?
JG: Yeah, cause then, we wanted another pilot and they said no, we, other station was short of gunners and they posted me straight away to that gunnery, to RAF Wickenby.
GT: So your crew, incidentally disintegrated.
JG: Crew was finished, yes. Oh, they give no thought, for you or anything, you know, not when you’ve got an officer like that in charge of you.
GT: So there’s about two or three weeks in between the squadrons in your log book here, so on the 7th of March, is your first flight with 12 Squadron. So how did it work then, did you join another crew straight away or did you have a choice?
JG: No, that was when, as I said to you, when I got there they posted me to, I gets in the squadron, you have to call in the guard hut, as you go through the gates, and they said right go to the Gunnery Leader and send you over there. I went there and that, he said to me well John look, I can’t see you now, and I told you, we’ve got ops on, so I’m busy, come back and see me tomorrow morning. That was when they posted me to this crew that got killed. And that’s when I went back to him.
GT: Tell me about that, what happened there, you visited another crew that night?
JG: They were getting dressed and we were talking and they said how many you done John? I said I’ve done sixteen, they said oh, we’re lucky then, I said why and they said we’ve done twenty nine, we’re doing our last one tonight. Never got back.
GT: You were in their nissen hut were you?
JG: In the nissen hut. I woke up at six o’clock in the morning with the noise, it was all the Special Police coming to collect all their gear, collect all their belongings and everything; it’s all taken away. Then when I went back to see the Gunnery Leader he said, that’s when he said right we’ve got three crews all want gunners, you fly with all the three and choose one of them. And you can see the three there through, one of them was Castle was it?
GT: You’ve got Raymond, Dickie and Granham.
JG: That’s it.
GT: So why were they short of gunners? What happened to the other gunners?
JG: Well one of ‘em, I asked that question. One of them had a bomb, what you call ‘em, little bombs, incendiary bombs, drop through the mid upper turret.
GT: From above, another aircraft.
JG: Yeah. That killed him. Another one, he was sick, in the oxygen mask, and obviously the pilot, his pilot hadn’t kept in touch with him enough, got lack of air, and I don’t know about the third one. But anyway, I chose one of the three and the other two got shot down on the next time we all went on a raid. So I was lucky. That’s when I got with Granham, but you know I can’t remember any of the names, except Granham of that second crew. There wasn’t the same feeling between the first crew and the second crew. I mean the first crew we was all mates, always out together at night and that, and the second crew, I know you’re friends and that, speak and everything, it’s not the same what you call it, camaraderie there, I can’t even, all I know is one was named George, I can’t remember the names of all, any the others, and the pilot.
GT: And you did fifteen ops with that new crew.
JG: Sixteen with ‘em, yeah. Or fifteen.
GT: On your log book, mid March you’ve got one thousand bomber raid on Dortmund.
JG: Yeah, I think we, I went on three or four, that was when, towards that time of the war, they had all these aircraft, used to send everything up, Bomber Harris.
GT: That’s March 45 that was Dortmund and Essen, so what was that like, you were mid upper at that time?
JG: No, I was rear gunner then. It should say there.
GT: Rear gunner. Oh yes, it does. So what was it like with all these aircraft around you, and above you, and below?
JG: Well, during the day it was all right, but at night you didn’t see, only when you nearly had a smash with one, we crossed like that, that’s how close we were and you know, nobody, he didn’t see us, we didn’t see him, and, was something else to do with flying.
GT: But you were able to warn the skipper of any aircraft above you.
JG: Oh yeah, I remember, oh with Granham, oh that was when this Ju88, perhaps that’s why I didn’t get sighted, because we’re flying along and next minute tracer bullets come up, come up underneath [emphasis] the tail plane and over the top of the wing, big long stream of tracer and the pilot - what the hell’s that, and I said it’s all right skipper, it’s only tracer bullet, just like that, not even thinking, and then I gave the order corkscrew starboard go, and he dived down.
GT: So that was on your twentieth operation to Nuremburg, on the 16th of March 1945, eight hours thirty at night and your log book states: ‘combat with Junkers 88, fired five hundred rounds, fighter destroyed, crashed in flames, exploded on ground, brackets: confirmed.’
JG: Yeah. That’s what, it was confirmed by this other man from another station but they said, I mean there was a lot of talk about Granham getting the DFC and me getting nothing. But.
GT: So your skipper at the time was Flying Officer Granham.
JG: Granham. Yeah.
GT: Granham is his surname there. So he already had the DFC.
JG: Yeah, already had the DFC. He got the bar to it.
GT: And he was awarded a second with a Bar directly for shooting down.
JG: Yeah. Shooting down.
GT: And you shot it down and you weren’t awarded anything.
JG: That’s what a lot of ‘em were saying on the station. How is it that he got a Bar to his bloody DFC and the gunner got nothing and he shot the plane down.
GT: You were a sergeant at the time? Flight Sergeant.
JG: Not sure, probably Flight Sergeant. Then.
GT: So you don’t know if you’d been accredited with the kill.
JG: No, never bothered about, you know.
GT: There was distinction there that you should have been awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal for your action.
JG: Yeah.
GT: And that never happened.
JG: That never happened. And then that’s how that came about, Paul.
GT: But in this case though your DFM, that others had been awarded for the same thing, you found out later that there was great disparity between -
JG: Oh yeah, between officers and airmen, non-commissioned officers and commissioned officers, big [emphasis] disparity, you try and get, and check out how many DFCs were awarded and how many DFMs were awarded.
GT: Did you find out the quantities of that?
JG: Yes, I’m almost sure it was what I said: twenty thousand DFCs and six thousand DFMs.
GT: And the shooting down of that Junkers that night for you saved your crew, and your aircraft.
JG: Well yeah, and if I’d have shot us down, I mean it’s lucky that the tracer bullets, if that’s your aircraft, come up under, underneath the tail plane, over the wing. That’s how.
GT: Normally every one tracer you see is another is four or five of rounds that are.
JG: All depends what they do, I think we had five, sometimes six, sometimes seven and then one tracer put in, you know, there.
GT: That’s pretty good shooting with three nought threes, to be able to get a Junkers.
JG: Yeah, but, that’s another thing what made me smile. On the training they’re telling you about your gunsight, your gun ring, you got a fifty, fifty percent crossing speed by half the gun sight, against a full gun sight, how you do this and that, and I said to ‘em, when they spoke to me about it after, some of the men, I said it’s biggest load of bullshit. What do you mean? I said I’ve ordered the pilot, I said, he’s corkscrewing like that, I said, all you’re supposed to aim at fifteen degree part I said all you’re doing is you’re firing a gun, the bullets are flying around and you hit lucky enough, hit a part of the engine what caught fire. And how the hell when I read sometimes on there or I read they got air gunners shot five or six, dunno, how the bloody hell, you couldn’t aim your gun, aircraft going like that. That was that you know, corkscrew come up the same way and then it went down again, till you ordered it, the captain, to stop. I know when we come up and the pilot, on one occasion, we’d just come out above the cloud, we’d dropped the bombs, flying back and he come above the clouds and it was beautiful [emphasis] clear and the pilot said Johnny, it’s pretty clear up here and we can be seen, what do you want me to do? I said can you go just in the cloud, just in the cloud so, and that’s what he done, for probably ten mile or so, flying just in the cloud. Made it a bit awkward, bit bumpy and that, wasn’t very good, but at least they couldn’t see us. Cause when you’re up, I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed, probably you haven’t but, if you’re about the cloud like that, that looks like sea above it, nothing there, just your lot, just looking at the cloud, yeah.
GT: On 75 New Zealand Squadron there was little documentation, but I’ve interviewed one chap who was an under [emphasis] gunner. Did you have any experience on 12 and 100 Squadron of Lancasters having under gunners?
JG: I know towards the end that’s when they found out the Junkers, instead of, he was firing upwards.
GT: Schrage musik. Upward firing cannons.
JG: Upward firing cannon. That’s why we lost so many aircraft before anybody knew about it! Then after that, when we’re searching, the mid upper gunner, the pilot every so often had to turn the plane down so he could look below and that way make sure there’s nothing underneath it.
GT: So the squadrons didn’t employ under gunners in any of the aircraft.
JG: No, not like the Americans, Americans had gunners in their Flying Fortresses. They had ten, ten gunners in their Flying Fortresses.
GT: For the gunnery side of things for you John, did you, that Junkers 88 you shot down did you have any other chance, or any other shooting opportunities with other attacking aircraft?
JG: Duren, we dropped, the Master Bomber called us down from seventeen thousand, called us down to five thousand feet, in Duren, dropped the bombs from five thousand, that was almost as if you’re on the ground, he called us down: it’s lovely down here. And we answered back and joked, yeah it’s f-ing lovely up here an all! We’re staying here! Of course, the Master Bomber couldn’t do nothing, he had no idea who it was!
GT: So you did all joined him?
JG: Yeah, so we slowly went down and joined him. You know, you’re talking amongst the crew, what do you reckon? Well look. if we go down, there’s a lot gone down, we’ve got more chance being in the crowd than staying up here on our own.
GT: But you risked being, having bombs dropped from those still above.
JG: Yeah, well that was my argument, but after this, seeing this plane dop bombs on another plane, how the hell, we were supposed to be the highest crew, usually round about sixteen, sixteen five, seventeen, seventeen five, eighteen. All depends how, I think on that particular night we were, our height was eighteen five hundred and yet there’s aircraft above us, and course we were talking, we’re supposed to be up the top, and the pilot saying what do you think they want these aircraft with these propellors for! They can go up higher! So long as the navigator knows, that if it’s, if he’s due to bomb at say sixteen thousand, then the instruments all set, but if we’re flying at seventeen, as long as the navigator knows, he can work it out, fiddle it out, that we’re a thousand feet higher than we should be.
GT: So by your twenty sixth operation which was Heligoland, in your log book you’ve stated: very good prang. Why was that a very good prang?
JG: Oh, l there wasn’t, well there was no cloud, it was a perfect sky like you get here, there wasn’t a cloud or anything in sight, not a fighter, no flak, you just flew round Heligoland. It was a u-boat place where all the u-boats dock, at Heligoland. That’s when they, they couldn’t, our bombs and that what we had, wouldn’t go through until they built the twelve thousand.
GT: Tallboy and the Grand Slam.
JG: That went through the bloody –
GT: Concrete.
JG: Concrete.
GT: So on the 29th of April, you started doing something different - Operation Manna. Tell us about Operation Manna, please.
JG: Yeah well, now we were given, [pause] first of all we were all told at a meeting that Holland is starving and that they’ve done a deal with the Germans that we won’t load our guns or fire on anything in Holland and we can drop the food, which we did do, the first time at six hundred feet I think it was. Was it, the first time?
GT: You’ve three entries in your log book for Valkenburg.
JG: Yeah, that’s Valkenburg was the first one.
GT: End of April beginning of May.
JG: So, and what happened, when we saw, it’s all in sacks, all stacked in the bomb bay, had a hell of a job with the bomb bay just opening like that a little bit to get the stuff in and course when it dropped, hit the ground we saw flour bursting and that, and we said, got back and reported it’s too high. They said right, go lower and the pilot said yeah, we can go lower, there’s nothing in the way at Valkenburg, and I always remember the second op Valkenburg, we’re going along, looking back and everybody’s running round the field and you’re dropping all these bloody great big sacks of food, and then we flew up the High Street and when I looked out the window, the church steeple’s up there! [emphasis] And we’re up the High Street and all the kids waving and that, to you, and you’re down flying up the Hight Street like a car and the church bloody steeple, I think Christ skipper, I said I want to go to Heaven but I don’t want to go this way yet! You know, and laughing and joking and all that, and then what we done then, on our particular, and evidently it was done. We used to fill up milk bottles and you know razor blades, how thin they are, you could bend it, bend it enough to put in the top and it used to open up, the blade used to open up jammed in the bottle and when they, you threw them out the turret it made a screaming noise, we used that a lot to frighten ‘em and what we done on our third trip to Holland, everybody on the station either had rag or handkerchief and cotton, you know the cotton, you know, parachute, you make your parachute, you tied it four corners and tied it round the choc bars. We all threw out we could see all the kids running with these little parachutes with the chocolate bars. Because that’s why, that’s why in the letters some of what Jack wrote, he went to Holland for two years running, they invited him over on the day they celebrate us dropping the food to ‘em, and the last time was Rotterdam, racecourse, flying along the racecourse about fifty, sixty foot high. Of course the pilots used to love it. So did we, flying like that! See when you’re young and that you never thought of danger, how dangerous it was. I think from what I was told, we only lost one aircraft on that and that was a Flying Fortress, on the way back, or something.
GT: Did you see any of the American aircraft doing the food drops as well, which was their Operation Chow Hound?
JG: No I never saw them, it was different timing and different places, you know.
GT: How many Lancasters would have been involved with the food drops that you saw?
JG: A few hundred, and then a lot of them, while that was carrying on, they went to pick up the prisoners of war.
GT: Juvencourt.
JG: Yeah, pick up all our prisoners of war, I wasn’t on that.
GT: Would you have wanted to be?
JG: One of me mates who was on it, he said we had twenty on the way back, prisoners of war, in our plane. Picked up twenty of ’em. Yeah.
GT: So you didn’t manage to do any more Operation Manna trips after that lot?
JG: No, I only done the four.
GT: That was your thirty one trips all together.
JG: Yeah. They posted me out.
GT: And you found out later why.
JG: He wanted to do some flying! I don’t blame him, I mean.
GT: Was that your gunnery leader?
JG: I went home on leave, they, I met the wife, and fourteen weeks I was home, fourteen weeks leave and while I was home on leave, I was a Flight Sergeant, I got a letter, on the, I got a letter on me demob leave promoting me to Warrant Officer which was another hundred and twenty pound!
GT: Good grief! That would buy a house, wouldn’t it! Now there were a couple of funny things that happened, funny when you look on them now, and one was when you were a mid upper on your first tour and the Lancaster above you was about to drop its bombs. They missed you but they got an aircraft below you.
JG: Missed us but got another one.
GT: What happened to the other aircraft?
JG: That’s what I said, the bombs had all dropped, we’d dropped our bombs and all, and the smoke cleared and the rear gunner, that was Jack, we’re on fire! I said shut up you silly sod, I said it’s not, I said it’s some poor sod’s had bomb’s dropped on ‘im! As the smoke cleared away, this other Lancaster bomber was turning like that, slowly turning to get back on course, with a bomb jammed in the wing. Told the skipper, and the skipper, we were going round, we went near enough to see it all and then skipper just carried on, you know, to get back himself, and we found out afterwards he landed, he made it, kept asking the people involved in our station and he said oh yeah, he landed okay, he landed in France on the emergency drome.
GT: The bomb hadn’t had time to arm itself before it hit the wing. Must have been so fortunate. That’s amazing. Now there was also a bit of an own goal, you were telling me about seven pound jam tins!
JG: That was the time I emptied it out the side.
GT: Tell me the story, come on, from the beginning!
JG: All the gunners had a big empty jam tin from the mess to use as their pee bucket cause we couldn’t get out our turrets to use the Elsan and this particular night I filled it up and I thought well what am I going to do? Am I going to empty on the floor, which it can go out through the bottom of the turret. I thought well, if I do that, the ground crew won’t be very happy that they’ve got to wash that out, and I slid the window at the side of me, in the turret.
GT: And what height would you have been at?
JG: Probably around eighteen thousand feet, I slid that open, and emptied the jam tin out. Within one second it had all gone round, straight back through the front of the turret – cause we had no windows, we took ‘em all out – all over me. We had no windows in our turrets, all the gunners took their windows out in front of ‘em, just had the guns there.
GT: So that would have been minus twenty, minus forty, is it?
JG: Sometimes it were really cold. We were cold, the rest of the crew were bloody ‘ot!. But the two gunners were nearly always cold. We had electric heated suits in the end, and I was colder still. Course when I told ‘em I looked like a bloody ice block, all they done was laugh. So did all at the station.
GT: So it all came back at you.
JG: Yeah, they couldn’t stop, they all thought how funny it was.
GT: And the jam tins there you said they were seven pound jam tins and the WAAFs managed to save these for you.
JG: Yeah. That’s what they used to have as their food: seven pounds of jam, in tins. That’s what all the RAF stations had, and I suppose the Army, Navy, and everything.
GT: Gee, you were lucky to not to have something frozen off.
JG: Yeah!
GT: So, the other thing was that during Operation Manna you’ve seen a photograph with the tulips and there was -
JG: Yeah, ‘Thank you boys.’
GT: There’s a photograph in one of the IBCCs books showing that and you remember seeing that.
JG: Yeah, I remember it was red tulips and ‘Thank You Boys’, probably from where we were about six foot long, so they must have had dozens and dozens of workmen overnight, planted all these in the middle of this field of tulips: ‘Thank You Boys.’
GT: You saw action with your, active bombing operations and then you did the Operation Manna and they classified that as an operation too.
JG: Oh yeah, we didn’t think they were going to, but they did in the end. Cause, and I remember at, what they done with the aircrew finished, they posted all the officers to one station and as many men to another one, filled up and they, let me tell you now, they got us on parade and said right, we’ll call your names out, just repeat your last number, your last three numbers and go and stand over there. They were calling all the names and this great big crowd got smaller and that one got bigger, and bigger and bigger, and in then end there was only about six of us left here, and we wasn’t in it. They were all going, being sent to Japan, against Japanese, Japan, we were too close to being demobbed, so they said it’s just a waste sending you out there, you’ll be sent back, and that’s when we got demobbed, you know. When we got our log book back, our pay book, there.
GT: The difference between the two, did it strike you then, that from doing the bombing operations that finally you were saving lives, of our allies?
JG: Oh yeah, with the food dropping, cause where we dropped, where we dropped the food at Valkenburg, it was surrounded by Germans. Actually I saw one German standing in the corner of the field, but, they had done a deal with the RAF not to take pictures and all that, and load the guns – like hell! We had our guns loaded, we weren’t going to take that chance with ‘em, but nobody got fired on.
GT: And nobody fired their guns.
JG: No, because, I found out afterwards by talking to somebody, of course they wouldn’t, cause they were starving as well. They wanted some of the food you were dropping: they were starving as well. Cause it was like, like a field, this part surrounded, all the rest is, a different, this part of Holland was surrounded by the Germans.
GT: You know there’s an Operation Manna Memorial in Rotterdam?
JG: I didn’t know.
GT: They hold a service every year and they thank you for your service to save them. It’s very special for the Dutch.
JG: I believe they’ve got to the last one or something, yeah. I know Jack used to go.
GT: Jack was your ex?
JG: Ex gunner. He used to go. Had a wonderful time he said. Said you never spent a ha’penny, you never spent anything. You wasn’t allowed to pay for anything.
GT: All the streets around the area are named after the commanders that organised everything in respect.
JG: What, actually what did annoy me, was this Dresden business, you know. Over the years they had meetings, cause they said there was three hundred thousand killed, in Dresden. Well it wasn’t all that long ago, only a few months ago, they had their last meeting over Dresden and they, all the people involved in the meeting are settled on nineteen thousand killed; well we had that in London! And they settled on nineteen thousand, killed in Dresden and not the three hundred thousand what they tried to say, you know, and that was only people over here, not over here, over in England. A lot of the do gooders, you know, you’re terror bombing, dropping bombs like that on Dresden and what annoyed me was Churchill blamed Bomber Harris for bombing Dresden, he said he had no need to do it! He went on the, yeah, he did, something there somewhere, I don’t know where I got it from, but he had no need to bomb Dresden. Well Bomber Harris had a letter from Churchill, ordering [emphasis] him, and he said I can prove how, I call him fat guts Churchill, whisky drinking gut, do you know if anybody speaks to me of Churchill, I say don’t talk to me about that fat gut! I said he put the blame on Bomber Harris for all these people being killed, I said, and he was the one who gave the order: him, Stalin, Roosevelt, at a meeting.
GT: And the very reason Bomber Harris was never given a peerage.
JG: That’s why though, when he finally come back here, they did do didn’t they, Memorial, they got the shock of their lives the way the people supported it.
GT: The Bomber Command Memorial in the Green Park. Now in 2011 and 2012 when New Zealanders went across, you being a British person.
JG: Couldn’t go.
GT: You were not involved, or not allowed to be involved with that. Have you been, yet, back to England?
JG: No, I’ve never been back; I won’t go back. I’ve never wanted to go back to England.
GT: Now if we can just move a little bit back from there. You emigrated to New Zealand in?
JG: 1979.
GT: And you followed your sons then, because you and Beatrice, or Betty, you had two sons.
JG: Yeah, and one of ‘em who’d already been back once to England, he went back home again and this time, he broke up with his wife.
GT: So you’ve got Mike who’s aged seventy two, living in Kent.
JG: In Kent.
GT: And you’ve got Paul here, living in New Zealand.
JG: Just over there.
GT: Who is fifty five, so you have your son close, and obviously you had a great time, Betty and yourself, here in New Zealand.
JG: You can go and see his garden, Paul’s gardens, see his swimming pool and all that.
GT: Fabulous, so Betty, she was, what did she do when you came to New Zealand?
JG: She was a dress maker, machinist, and in the end she had, we had a big machine up in that garage there, we made it into a, like a workshop for her.
GT: Fabulous. Now, at the, when you demobbed from the RAF, you went back as an engineer and then into the fishing tackle game, selling in London there. So you became a store owner, was that right?
JG: See, in England fishing tackle is a lot different to New Zealand. In New Zealand, I hate to say this, but all they think about is trout. Trout, trout. Can you eat it? If you can’t eat it they don’t want to catch it! Whereas the poms, we do it for the fun of catching the fish.
GT: You do the coarse fishing.
JG: Coarse fishing. And course, so therefore, the shop in England was selling ten times the amount of stuff than what they do in New Zealand, cause there’s so much, such a bigger range.
GT: And where was your shop?
JG: Down, opposite, opposite Penge Police Station funnily enough.
GT: And you sold that up to come out to New Zealand in the early seventies.
JG: Yes.
GT: You’ve already said you didn’t want to go back. Did you get homesick for England?
JG: I didn’t. The wife’s been back, twice, but I didn’t. Never been homesick and wanted to go back. And I told me son, when he left here and went back home, I said that’s the second time, don’t expect me to follow you, I won’t be following you, which I didn’t do, I didn’t want to chase after him. He’s happy enough, he’s married a Russian woman, got divorced. His wife was one of these moaning types, always got something to moan about! [Chuckle]
GT: Fabulous. So you’ve managed to keep your home that you purchased as soon as you arrived here. And so, when did you lose Betty?
JG: Eleven years ago.
GT: You’ve been very active here with the New Zealand Bomber Command Association.
JG: Yeah, I used to go there every Wednesday.
GT: So you were part of the, now in New Zealand we have a Lancaster that’s been rebuilt and is on display at the MOTET, which is the Museum of Transport and Technology.
JG: That’s right. We used to clean that.
GT: Right, so you were part of the Wednesday Bomber Boys. Was a group of you veterans over the years.
JG: Every Wednesday up there, and why I stopped in the end, driving here to there took nearly an hour, driving back was under half hour and driving on that motorway with all that, everybody going into Auckland, I couldn’t take it any longer and I had to pack it in. The Wednesday Boys.
GT: So for those who are unaware of our Lancaster here in New Zealand, it was donated by the French Navy and it was not an aircraft that had served during World War Two but was just after. But it sat for many years here and finally a group was put together to get it back to display status, and it’s a magnificent aircraft at the Museum of Transport Technology and at the current time it has 75 Squadron markings on it. But for your factor John, did you spend much time inside the aircraft when you were fixing it up?
JG: No, we, one of the jobs I had was, every week., four of us used to sit round the table with all log books, reading out what this one done, oh this one he flew so and so, so and so, and somebody like yourself is making a note of it, and all that was reduced to a disc, so that if you wanted, if you had a father or grandfather who was one of the aircrew got lost, you wanted to know what happened. Instead of you searching through all the records: it’s on the disc.
GT: Under that guy’s name.
JG: Under that guy’s name, and that would tell you everything. And that’s what we done. We used to sit there for hour, or couple of hours then it was tea time, cup of tea and a bun, and then some of us used to have a duster and clean the aircraft up. We, I took me mates up there once and they were, they had to pay to get in! [Laugh] They said no lads, sorry, but. I said they’re my mates, and he said yeah I know, he said but if we let them in then others will want it. I mean I didn’t have to pay, I could go in there any time: One of the Wednesday Boys.
GT: How many Wednesday boys were there all together? A dozen?
JG: Oh, couple of dozen. Yeah.
GT: Any left, besides yourself?
JG: Yeah, oh yeah, there’s still, still two or three left – like Peter Wheeler, I’m sure he was one of the Wednesday Boys.
GT: Peter’s not a veteran though, but he’s the executive of the New Zealand Bomber Command Association. He looks after the aircraft for MOTET, the aircraft’s not the MOTET particularly, it’s part of the Bomber Command Association.
JG: The last time, which is years ago, they had a Sunderland flying boat, outside.
GT: It’s inside now.
JG: That’s inside is it.
GT: It’s all been painted up.
JG: I know they were doing this Lancaster up, somebody said these two brothers got together and paying it out, paying for it out their pocket.
GT: You’re talking about the Panton brothers at East Kirkby, Lincoln. It’s Just Jane.
JG: They reckon there’ll be a couple of Lancasters flying.
GT: They’re looking at that. And this is where the International Bomber Command Centre has come about, now it’s not far, and this is where this recording will end up, with them in their archives and it’s been fascinating. Now what you have on your wall here is a huge framed effort with your rank slides, your medals and some photographs, and some badges of the squadrons you flew with, which is fascinating. Your son built that for you?
JG: No, he had it built by the chap owns the bed and breakfast at Russell, you know Russell? He owns the bed and breakfast [cough] right on the front of Russell. I don’t know, I think it cost a couple of thousand to do that. What he was charging.
GT: Awesome. That’s pretty neat there.
JG: Paul paid for all that.
GT: To have your information up on the wall.
JG: And then trouble is, one of the cards has slipped down and it’s too much bother to undo the back, because it’s sealed, so we just left it.
GT: So we see that you managed to secure the Bomber Command Clasp at least. So that’s good to see. Now John, you’re now coming up, in September it was your birthday, you were ninety -
JG: Seven.
GT: Ninety seven. You’re feeling good about yourself?
JG: Well, I’ve got all this problem now what’s going to happen about when they start knocking down my wall and pulling up me carpets.
GT: Bit of a flood in the laundry yesterday.
JG: I don’t.
GT: But the other thing too, John, you’ve just survived an accident on the road! Gosh, what happened there?
JG: Well that, on that mobility scooter, I’ll show you if you like before you go. Well coming down Buckman’s beach road you’re supposed to stay on the pavement, well I’ve been using the road, but on this particular time there was a lot of traffic so I went on the pavement. Coming down Buckman’s each but you know the houses’ driveways are slanted up like that, going along and we got to house and it was quite steep so I went to move over to the right to get nearer the wall of the house, and what I didn’t know, in front of me, the pavement ended, it was mud. And the wheel, ruddy wheel went down and threw me over the top.
GT: Were you hurt?
JG: I’ve done all this, out gardening more or less stopped now.
GTL And you also attend a lot of the Bomber Command services.
JG: Well I shall, I’m going this one June 9th at ten thirty. I’m going to phone up Kerry and Don, Paul said he would take the four of us there, you know, to the service. Well if he does, if they come, and we stop in the restaurant there, I’ll tell ‘em I’ll treat ‘em to breakfast. I know Carrie and Don won’t eat much - Paul will! [Laughter]
GT: So, the service is all about the Bomber Command stuff, right.
JG: Yeah.
GT: So, and you’ve been doing this every year?
JG: Every year, yeah, and Peter met, Peter said I haven’t seen you, was last year you saw me, cause he came here, Peter, to interview me over something. I will have to find his phone number and phone him up.
GT: The other thing John you mentioned to me, was that during your operational tours, you had a white scarf.
JG: Yeah, a white silk scarf.
GT: Tell me about that please.
JG: It was about eighteen inches wide and over six foot long, and every op when I come back, I used to take it with me on ops, when I come back, I had this WAAF used to embroider the name of the town we’d been to bomb. Even when we shot down that Ju 88, she embroidered a swastika on it. So I had sixteen names at the top and fifteen names, and fifteen names at the bottom with a swastika and I gave them to John Bannon to put on show.
GT: Well we’ll find out more about that.
JG: See if you can.
GT: It’s fascinating that you actually had that done.
JG: He died. When he suddenly died, I thought meself I wonder what happened to my scarf?
GT: We’ll have a look for that. So have you been up to see the Lancaster lately?
JG: No I don’t get out there now. You know, I mean I’ve got the address, 9th of June, Paul’s already, I can make a note, yeah, we’ll take you dad, him and his partner and I’m going to phone up Carrie or she’ll come over, and Don, see if they want come with us.
GT: Well you have got a amazing amount of your historical documents here: your log book is safe and is being scanned and copied. You have a folder full of all of the New Zealand Bomber Command Association newsletters for quite some years, you have some from the 100 Squadron in England.
JG: There’s two there.
GT: There’s two that you have managed to secure, and see what they have been doing and been up to, I have now given you have some IBCC material I brought back from England last year with me so you have some material there to check on, and when I arrived here to visit you today you were looking at your photographs on your big tv which is fascinating to see.
JG: I fetched the flying, the Lancaster flying with it, with it the Hurricane and Spitfire flying along there and then I fetch them flying over, practicing on that dam, all on my, but I’m not so good now with the computer, getting it, you know, cause I play poker a bit on it, on the computer.
GT: What did you do when you came to New Zealand? What was your career, job? What did you get up to?
JG: Er, [pause] I had a job with Shatlocks. You know, Shatlocks, I worked for them.
GT: The company that made stoves.
JG: They made all the stoves down Dunedin. All the electric ones and that, and Fisher and Paykel got their name on one of them.
GT: Fischer and Paykel are a very famous brand here in New Zealand aren’t they, John, making cooker tops and such.
JG: Well they done, well they didn’t actually make the cook tops, it was Jack Shatlock, Shatlocks made ‘em, made all the cookers.
GT: And you were a technician or a salesman?
JG: Technician. I’ve got, actually, see that red tin there, up there, there’s a red tin up the garden, there’s about twelve up there, that was what they used to enclose the dishwashers in and all the aluminium sheets up there, was all part of the plate what came out your cooker.
GT: You’re in a very large house here, with a large back yard which is not the same as what many English households have.
JG: I used to do a lot [emphasis] of gardening, but now, half hour and that’s me lot. I’ve realised now, when I start getting tired, I just come and sit down, read.
GT: And you’re the last man of your crew that you know of, John?
JG: Yeah, Jack was the, Jack was, he died a year ago now, and some of the others have been dead a few years you know, slowly getting less and less.
GT: You were involved with two different crews though. Did you keep in contact much with any of the other chaps?
JG: No, none at all.
GT: Once you demobbed.
JG: No, none at all, not even.
GT: Other than Jack of course.
JG: Jack and, talking to Podge cause he used to come over from Australia to stay at Jack’s place and he invited me, I spoke to him on the phone one day when he was visiting England, he said John, if you’d like to come to Australia and pay for half the petrol, I’ll take you all around Australia, flying, he had is own aircraft, type like Tiger Moth. And I never did go, but I could have flown all the way round Australia.
GT: You stlll can.
JG: All you got to do he said was pay for half the petrol.
GT: That’s amazing. You are amazing for the New Zealand Bomber Command Association to be one of the few left here in New Zealand, so, John, I am very honoured to be able to interview you today for the IBCC especially. You and I have crossed paths for many years at the services, this is my first time to sit and chat to you so I’m quite honoured to spend time with you today. I think is there anything else you would like to speak to with your interview here?
JG: No not really I think I’m quite surprised, you know that, I’m glad Peter Wheeler’s still there. I can have a chat with him, when I go. I will phone him up though.
GT: But this is your story, this is about your -
JG: If you remember, try and have a look for that scarf.
GT: I can do that too. But for your history and your remembrance of your time, serving with the Bomber Command itself, long before you were in New Zealand. I know I certainly can be proud to thank you for your service and you obviously served with distinction and pride.
JG: Thank you.
GT: And memories of those days: good, bad?
JG: Yes. Some good, some bad. I can think to myself, I must have been bloody mad volunteering for this when I was up there flying at times, when we was in trouble, you know, but then I realise, now, how lucky I was to be one [emphasis] of the men who got back. Like all, evidently, all [emphasis] that crew who you saw there, every one of them, survived. I don’t know how many ops Jack done, but I know he done a lot less than me, cause he done six food, no seven food drops, he told me, he done seven there so, if he done seven of them he didn’t do many, that’d been seven ops left. Can’t get, I’m lucky to have a son like Paul over there.
GT: Well John, I’m going to finish our interview here now, sadly, because I’d love to keep talking with you, but thank you very much for your time here, and I’ll make sure the IBCC have the recording from this, sent to them and I hope you enjoy reading their cards I’ve left with you.
JG: I will read all that. I’ll sort it all out and read it.
GT: They will have now your contact details and I’ll make sure they’ll send some to you. From me, from Glen Turner, of 75 Squadron Association, the secretary of the Association and my friendship with the Bomber Command gentlemen, I thank you and I thank you on behalf of the IBCC.
JG: I think thank you for taking the trouble to, you know, do this sort of thing. There.
GT: My pleasure for you. Thank you, John. Goodbye.
JG: Bye-by.
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Interview with John Green
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Glen Turner
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2019-03-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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AGreenJ190307, PGreenJ1901
Format
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01:28:12 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
John Green was born on the 22nd of September 1921 in Penge, South East London. He registered for the Royal Air Force to prevent being called up by the Army and was drafted in 1942. He was posted to the Isle of Man, where he volunteered as a drogue operator during training operations, before transferring to bomb disposal in Bathford. In 1944, Green volunteered for aircrew and opted to train as an air gunner. He formed a crew at 30 Operational Training Unit, RAF Hixon, converted from Wellingtons to Halifaxes at RAF Sandoft, and attended the Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Hemswell. The crew joined 100 Squadron, RAF Grimsby, in October 1944. He recalls the conditions inside the mid-upper gunner turret, manually releasing their bombs over Speyer, and failing to complete their sixteenth to Kemnitz, which resulted in a Lack of Moral Fibre accusation to ground the pilot and disband the crew. In March 1945, Green was posted to 12 Squadron, RAF Wickenby, and completed fifteen further operations. He describes the lack of camaraderie with his new crew and shooting down a Ju 88 on an operation to Nuremberg, for which the pilot received recognition but he did not. For Operation Manna, he undertook three trips to Valkenburg, and one to Rotterdam, and recalls dropping chocolate bars for children and viewing a message of thanks written in tulips. Green describes his career after demobilisation, his opinion regarding the treatment of Bomber Command, emigrating to New Zealand in the 1970s, and his active membership with the New Zealand Bomber Command Association.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Anne-Marie Watson
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
New Zealand
England--Bath
England--Lincolnshire
England--Somerset
England--Staffordshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Speyer
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Netherlands--Valkenburg (South Holland)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Coverage
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Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944-06-09
1944-10-31
1944-12-15
1945-02
1945-04
1945-03-16
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Squadron
12 Squadron
1667 HCU
30 OTU
air gunner
aircrew
bomb disposal
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military service conditions
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Grimsby
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hixon
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Wickenby
recruitment
shot down
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1249/16388/ADareI180704.2.mp3
03d0d174f27b1395f85258c9123c9f67
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Dare, Iris
I Dare
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Iris Dare (1922 - 2018, 427994 Royal Air Force). She served in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force and was married to Flying Officer Maurice Edward Dare (425238 Royal New Zealand Air Force), a pilot with 75 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dare, I
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GT: This is Wednesday the 4th of July 2018, and I am at the home of Mrs Iris Dare, wife of Maurice Edward Dare, a New Zealand Lancaster pilot of 75 New Zealand Squadron RAF, from 1944. Iris was born Nineteen June 1922 in Newcastle, England and joined the RAF in January 1940. Iris, thank you for having me in your home. Can you please tell me why you joined the Royal Air Force, and when?
ID: It was a time when I was making up my mind whether I should join the air force or do- Go into nursing. Well, the air force won because of one thing, the uniform [chuckles].
GT: [Chuckles]
ID: That’s all, but I wouldn’t have missed it for the world. I enjoyed every minute of five years.
GT: So, you joined from Newcastle?
ID: I joined in 19- At the beginning of January 1940. The war had just started. I mean I can remember as if it were yesterday. I was listening to the radio and I heard them say, you know, ‘We are at war with Germany.’ Oh dear. Oh, I know what, should I do nursing, no, I like the uniform, I’d rather be in the women’s air force. So, I went to- I was born in a village outside Newcastle, but I went to Gosforth to join up and from there, as I say, they sent me down to Swansea down, right down in Wales, and I was there for about eighteen month I think, and it was- I’m sure it was the start of the training of- To be a balloon operator, which was- I enjoyed in a way but, only to a certain degree because there was a lot of heavy work attached to being that person. But, well, as I say, I got used to it and I enjoyed being with the girls, I mean, I made a lot of friends. It was really, really an- I can’t say that I didn’t enjoy one minute [emphasis] of being in the women’s air force. I absolutely loved it, loved it and, I mean, I’m sure the girls today have a better time than we had [chuckles] I mean, when you think about it, we used to get paid one-pound-thirty for a fortnight. But a lot of the things that we had and were given were from Lord Halifax, he used to supply us with all sorts of things, free. So, we had really nothing to spend the money on, only luxuries, and we spent them very quickly. By the end of the fortnight, nobody had any money, nobody. But of course, when I got married to Mauri, every now and again he would send me a five-pound note [emphasis], I mean, I don’t- Do they have five-pound notes now? Well, he used to send me that and of course, I used to treat all the girls, we’d go up to the NAAFI and we’d have- Because on a Thursday, you only had horse meat for your dinner and I didn’t like that, so we used to go to the NAAFI and have what you call a sticky bun and a cup of coffee [chuckles] and I used to pay for the girls. That was practically the end of the five pounds, oh gosh [chuckles].
GT: So, when you were doing square bashing and marching and all that kind of stuff, or was it admin or?
ID: You do that at your initial training, and I won, well, no I didn’t win, I mean, they had a word of command, that is to take the parade, and I thought- There was two people left after we’d had the audition, I was one, and a young girl, seventeen, was the- Another one, she won it, I didn’t get to go with the passing out parade, she did it.
GT: Seventeen.
ID: But, I mean, I do try to speak clearly because of Andrea being deaf.
GT: So, when you were doing your marching, you joined up in January, that was winter for England was it? So, were you in skirts or did they give you trousers ‘cause it must’ve been really cold?
ID: Well, we had the dress uniform and a battle dress, trousers and a what do you call it? Top thing.
GT: Tunic, tunic?
ID: But that was mainly for working, but I mean I've seen a lot of the girls, when I was there, they would wear them to go out with but I never did, I used to wear my uniform. But that is about the only time I have ever had a skirt, I mean, the lady today said to me, she’s taking me to the hospital, she said, ‘I think you should wear a skirt,’ I said, ‘A skirt [emphasis]? I have never owned such a thing as a skirt’ [chuckles]. Oh dear, honestly, but it was a wonderful time, wonderful. I recommend it.
GT: So, they posted you to Stockport on balloons, did they?
ID: Yes, that was- I was first on balloons. But, then later on I became a driver, and I used to-
GT: Now, with the balloons though, what did you do to look after the balloons? And your brother was involved, you said?
ID: No, I didn’t do anything before the balloons, that’s the first thing I was taught on. But-
GT: And what did that involve Iris? What, did you have to do for the balloons?
ID: Well, to start off with, you’ve got to learn how to splice ropes, you learnt how to lift heavy concrete blocks, and you’ve got to look after a balloon, which I didn’t and got severely told off for.
GT: What happened Iris? What happened?
ID: I don’t know, I mean, when I was a corporal, I went out with the girls one night and I had, I think about nine gin and oranges, by the time I came outside, I got back to the billet and of course, in the thing that we were living in, this tin thing, you have a separate room, the girls are in there and you’ve got a room to yourself. Well, I came in and I lay down and everything went round and round and afterwards, I told one of the girls, she said, ‘You should have lain on your stomach and you wouldn’t have had that,’ and I said, ‘Now she tells me’. But, the WAAF officer came round that morning, and she had to interview me sort of for the day, and well she, she looked at me and she said, (it was a very warm day) she said, ‘Are you alright corporal?’ I said, ‘Why?’ She said, ‘It’s a nice day and you’ve got your battle dress on and a big scarf round your neck,’ she said, ‘Aren’t you hot?’ [chuckles]. I don’t know, honestly, I felt so embarrassed but, I found the officers very nice, very nice, but I like the uniform today, I really do.
GT: So, tell me how you lost a balloon?
ID: Oh, don’t mention the balloon [emphasis]. Honestly, I was left- I was a corporal and I had sixteen girls. Now, you let eight go on the evening up till ten o’clock, that’s alternate every night, eight go, the next night the other eight go. Well, I was left with eight girls and, as I say, it was a beautiful night, and they said, ‘Can’t we just go down the pub?’ and I said, ‘Well, I’m sure, you know, nothing’s going to happen, yeah’. And I should never have let them go. Well, I mean, you know what they used to call me? Softie. They just had to say it and I would say yes, and I was sitting- And they hadn’t gone ten minutes [emphasis] and the bell rang from headquarters, ‘Bed all balloons’ and I thought, ‘Oh gosh what do I do?’. You’ve got to have an eight crew to do that ‘cause everybody has their individual job, and my brother was on the next site (he’s as daft as a brush) and I rang him and I said, ‘Can you come round and help me?’. So, he came round, and he said, ‘What do you want me to do?’ I said, ‘Can you drive the winch, that reels in the balloon?,’ and on the balloon, you’ve got fifteen feet and then you’ve got a bag, and then another fifteen feet and you’ve got another bag. Now the thing was, that they hoped a plane would come along, go in that bit in between, cut the wire and it would cling on to their plane wing, saw the wing off and it would down the plane. I think it did, one or two times, I'm not sure, I’m sure I'd heard that they’d done it a few times. Well, he gets into this winch- Honest, I can’t tell you how- I stood there watching him and I thought, ‘Oh god, what is he doing?’. And he did that, and they fired, and off the balloon went, and I had to ring headquarters and had to speak to a Sergeant Starky, so he came round about an hour later, asked me what I'd done and I told him, and I said, ‘Have they found it yet?’. He said, ‘Yes, they’ve shot it down over Switzerland.’ And that was the end of my [unclear], he said, ‘Don’t let me ever [emphasis] see you do that again.’ It wasn’t my fault, but I got the blame. Anyway, that’s the story.
GT: Did they post you from barrage balloons, away- At that time or did you stay on for a while?
ID: No, I was there for a while. I was there until I went down to- God, it’s down London ways. You go there, to be tested and the officer that I was with up in Stockport had put my name down to go down there to be tested. This is to get your stripes. I went down there, we were there for three weeks, and they test everything you do on the balloon. Well, I was living off everybody else's brains. I mean, I was standing next to a girl and we were standing there in a group, and the instructor was there, and he asked the girl to do something with the balloon and she hadn’t done it, and it was to untie- The balloon was tied to hold it down, she hadn’t done that right, and then a girl standing next to me said [whispering under her breath], ‘She hasn’t untied the balloon,’ I said, [louder] ‘She hasn’t untied the balloon,’ he said, ‘Give that girl marks’ [chuckles] I got the marks and they didn’t. But that’s how I think- I mean, as I say, there was twenty-two girls on the course at the time, and I'm sure there was no more than four or five when you go up for the last day and they tell you whether you- I mean, there was a girl there called something King, a blonde girl, she come from London and she really studied hard, every night she studied, and I was going out enjoying myself, I thought, ‘I’m just here for a party and a nice time,’ I never [emphasis] did any studying. Anyway, at the end of the day, I went in and- As I say, there was these three ladies and two men at a table, and they just looked down the page and they said, ‘Congratulations Corporal,’ and that’s how I got my stripes. I really didn’t deserve them, not really. But, then on- I mean I was ok, it was then that I was sent to- Down to Swansea again, and, it was so [emphasis] remote, there was that place and the next place to it and I was at a place called St Mawgan. I’d never been to Wales, but I didn’t like it, for the simple reason, the people were awful. They used to- If you were in a pub, sitting there and they would come in, they would be talking in English, the minute they saw you in uniform, they’d go back to their dialogue- Welsh, you know. I don’t know why they didn’t want you to hear, I mean I wasn’t bothered about what they were doing, I really couldn’t have cared less, but I do think- I mean, I don’t probably think they’re like that now, but they were like that then. I’m sure things have changed, I'm sure, but I don’t like Wales. Oh, dark, drab place, it really is.
GT: So, when you were as a corporal with the balloons there- You had a bit of competition?
ID: A competition?
GT: You had some competition with the other girls I hear? And one of them-
ID: Oh no, no, I still acted as if I was one of the girls, and I was smartly told off, I wasn’t.
GT: Did you get your sergeants stripes?
ID: Yes, I did, but as I say, when he came round, the officer, one day, a man, I said, ‘I don’t want them anymore, I really don’t, you don’t get paid enough.’ So, he said, ‘I think you’re very silly,’ I said, ‘Why?’ he said, ‘Your sergeants stripe came through this morning,’ [chuckles] I said, ‘Oh right’. Because from then, I went from one-thirty a fortnight to four-pound-forty a fortnight, thought I’ll have that, yes. That was good, I had that. So that’s why I took it actually [chuckles]. Honestly- No I was ok as a sergeant but I never got any further, that was all I got up to, for five years.
GT: So now, tell me how you met Mauri, because we’ve got, we’ve got Mauri, Flying Officer Maurice Edward Dare, a pilot from New Zealand and he arrived in around about March 1944 to England, and so, from there how did you meet him?
ID: Well, I was on this site up in London in Clapham Common and there was a girl there called Tina, she was a corporal, and I, I mean, I wasn’t a friend of hers, I didn’t go out with her at all. Do you know what she used to go- Have you heard of David Niven? She used to go out with him. She was the most gorgeous looking girl, blonde hair, beautiful teeth, beautiful skin - She had everything, and one night, in the summer there was- Her girls, she’d sent them on the day off, or evening off and she was going to go off too, and it was my night off, and she said, ‘Are you doing anything?’ and I said, ‘Not really’, she said, ‘Well, would you like to come with me to town?’, and I said, ‘Yeah, ok’. I’d never been with her before, and we go up there and I said, ‘Have you got any special place in mind?’, she said, ‘Oh, I think’ (How she knew it, I don’t know) she said, ‘I’m gonna- I think we’ll go to the New Zealand officers club’. I said, ‘Oh right, ok, never been to that before’. So, we went in, there was an empty table, we sat down, the next table was Mauri and I think four or five of his crew, and we sat there for a while, didn’t seem to get very far and she said, ‘You think we should go?’, I said, ‘Well, not much going on here’. So, we got up to go and Mauri looked across, he said, ‘Are you going?’, and I looked, I said ‘Well we thought about it’. He said, ‘Why don’t you join us?’. So, I would think as a I say, there was four men of his crew with him, and three of them left him and Danny Boon. Now, Tina went to sit next to Danny Boon and I’d sat next to Mauri, and we had the evening with them and then they took us back to Clapham Common, and the next morning, they were out there, when we were doing something to the balloon, I looked and they were standing at the railings, and Mauri was swinging a key. I said, ‘What are you doing with that?’, he said, ‘We’ve just booked into a hotel across the road’ [chuckles] and they were on a week's holiday. So, we went out the first night, she went with Danny and I went with Mauri. The next night, she said to me, ‘Can we swap because I like yours better than mine?’, I said, ‘Don’t be silly, you can’t do that, that’s terrible’, so she said, ‘Oh, I thought you might change, ‘cause I’m not keen on that one’. But, she ended up marrying him, really, Danny Boon of Whakatāne and his family are supposed to be the most well-known people in that area, and I mean, Danny when he married Tina, on the property they had he built a house because the big house was where his mother used to live with her two daughters and Tina, she’s a cockney, she just says what she thinks, you know? And the mother-in-law said to her one day, ‘Tina, did you know we had a lady in our family?’, and Tina just said, ‘Well, I think we’ve all [emphasis] got a bow to our- We’ve all got a something to our bow’ [laughs]. She was, she was awful. But, anyway, being as he only had two sisters, the mother died, so of course he took over and he went to live in the big house but he then supplied a house for his two sisters, and he let the house that he’d had down from the house to a chap that was working on the farm. So, we went down once to have a weekend with him, and we had to get up at four o’clock in the morning, and Mauri was supposed to milk the cows and there was just two little calves that had just been born, and I said to Danny, ‘What have you called them?’, he said, ‘Well let Marcia name them’. So she named them Marci and Andrea [laughs] the two little calves.
GT: That was after the war-
ID: Oh yes, after.
GT: But I would like to know, how you and Mauri got on, and how you knew he was a flyer? Did he tell you?
ID: Flying. Well, I didn’t always know when he was flying, but if he could tell me he would, but I mean sometimes he would come over the house that we were renting at the time, it was a village, he’d dip down and go up and dip down again, I used to have the kids standing outside waving to him [chuckles]. You could see him [emphasis] in the cockpit, he was so low.
GT: Did he tell you he was flying on 75 Squadron, or couldn’t he tell you anything?
ID: Oh yes, he told me. Yes, he told me. But I didn’t know what 75th Squadron meant.
GT: Oh [emphasis] 75 Squadron, not 75th.
ID: Well, isn’t it the only one in New Zealand?
GT: Oh, now it is, but back then it was 75 New Zealand Squadron Royal Air Force, yeah. So, so when he was flying and doing his ops, did he let you know or?
ID: If he could.
GT: You’d become a couple by then, had you?
ID: Oh yes, yes, and we were in a village and not far up the road, was the station where he was. If he wanted a babysitter, he would get a young chap and a young chap came down one night and he said, ‘Can I ask, what is your name?’, I said, ‘Dare’, he said ‘Dare, any relation to Charlie Dare?’, I said, ‘It’s Mauri’s brother’, he said, ‘See these teeth? He filled them in the camp’. He was training to be a dentist, and when he got back to New Zealand, the government offered to pay for him to finish training and become a complete dentist.
GT: So that was Mauri’s brother?
ID: Yes.
GT: So Mauri’s brother RNZAF, and he joined-
ID: He- Charlie, there was only the two brothers there was no daughters in their family at all. But, Charlie, I mean after- He was shot down on the first trip, so he was a prisoner of war for four-and-a-half years, a sorry mess when he came home, very sorry mess. Crippled with arthritis because of lack of food. I mean, he told me one day that the Gestapo had come into their camp, stopped at their Nissen Hut where they were and they had a horse and trap and when they came out to get their horse and trap, it was just the trap. They’d taken the horse, killed it and eaten it. He said, they used to scrape the scrap heaps where the cook had put them out, (potato peelings, things like that) boil them up and put- I don’t know, they used to get some beans or something from the Germans, they didn’t feed them well, not at all. But-
GT: And Mauri got to see Charlie after the air force, but- Now, when did you marry Mauri?
ID: Eight months after I met him.
GT: And he was still flying on operations at the time?
ID: Yes, but he was on holiday that week.
GT: And where did you marry?
ID: At Clapham Common, where I was stationed. I was there, oh quite a while, up in London. Clapham Common was where we were married and we were married in a church that was bombed the night before and the altar where you- At the top, the minister told us to do kneeling, he said, ‘I can’t ask you to kneel, because it’s all broken glass down here’. But the morning we were supposed to marry, I stayed with another girl, it’s on my wedding photos, she’s the corporal, I stayed with her. Got ready the next morning, came to the church, I managed- I don’t know, oh I know, there was a chap I'd met from the army at Catterick camp, and- Oh it’s long before I met Mauri, and he became a prisoner of war, I had forgotten about him and then all of a sudden I got this letter that they sent from Germany and it was from him [emphasis] and it said he was sending me fifty pound, and I thought, ‘What is he doing?’, I wrote back, I said, ‘Why are you sending me fifty pounds?’, he said, ‘I want you to buy an engagement ring’, and I got- He gave me the address of his mother, she lived I think in Manchester, so I got in touch with her and I said, ‘I’ve got to send you this money because I don’t want to get engaged to him, I really don’t’. So, she said, ‘If he gave you that money, then you keep that money’. So, I used that money to buy my plain clothes to get married to Mauri [chuckles], aren’t I horrible?
GT: Who was your best man?
ID: Warren [unclear], navigator of his.
GT: The navigator of Mauri’s crew.
ID: I didn’t know the rest of the crew.
GD: Yeah.
ID: I’m surprised that anybody of their left alive.
GT: Well, just to briefly mention the crew of Mauri. So, you had Mauri Dare as the pilot, G. Warren as the navigator, N. McDonald as the bomb aimer, W. Neville as the wireless operator, J. Dunbar as the flight engineer, A. Bannon as the mid-upper gunner and G. Lawton as the rear gunner, and currently, as of July 2018, Norman McDonald the bomb aimer and Alf Bannan the mid-upper gunner are still alive in New Zealand.
ID: Well, I mean I don’t know how friendly he was with these men, but he never mentioned them, only the guy that was our best man, and at the time Mauri had just got his commission and he had no money, so that Warren chap lent him a hundred-pound [chuckles] and as soon as he got paid his back money, he paid him back of course. But, ah the times, I wish it was now, I wish I was in it now. I really [emphasis] do, it was much better than anything I’ve been in, and I would’ve- I mean, my girlfriend back in New Zealand, she was- She came from Scotland, she- I’ve asked you, haven’t I? Did you hear- Have you heard of Whitecliff Saw Mill? It’s just outside Auckland. Well, Jimmy, his father owned that, and he had three brothers, and when he went back to New Zealand, the father died and they were supposed to share, the four of them, but the other three, apart from Jim, didn’t want it. So he raised money to pay them out and he took it, and he’d married Jan. Now, when we got to New Zealand, we stayed with Mauri’s mother and we were there about three months, and Charlie, he was in something- The [unclear] flag, I think, renting, and he wanted to be somewhere near. He’d got in touch with the, the chap that I told you- There was Mr Butland[?] that got made Sir Butland[?] with the money, he gave seventy-five-thousand, he said it was his profits, he gave it to England to help the war effort, and he got knighted for it, and his wife, Mrs Butland- I mean, he was going flying around in- Oh god- A big American car, blue, blue something and she had this little old Austin, she wouldn’t change, and her and I got on absolutely famous. When we left, she said- She sent word when we came back when he had the Panama Canal thing, she sent word she wanted to see us and I went up to this big house in Remuera and she gave me a present and she had a lovely silver cigarette case for Mauri with his initials on and a picture of New Zealand, and she had for Marcia a lovely little pair of patent leather shoes, and we were sitting there talking and I heard in the distance something like a bell, and I said, ‘What’s that?’, and she said, ‘Oh, it’s a bell in the far wing’. They had tennis courts, swimming pool everything, but she never, ever, would’ve let anybody think that she had anything. I mean she was so down to earth but her family, all like that.
GT: Now, Iris take me back to the, the end of ‘44, you’d married Mauri and Mauri was continuing with air operations. During that time, did you ever worry about losing Mauri?
ID: Tomorrow?
GT: Did you ever worry about losing Mauri, being shot down for instance?
ID: Oh gosh, yes, yes, absolutely. But as soon as he could he would ring through and let me- Oh, I mean not me, the neighbour that had a phone, not many people had a phone in those days, not a landline. I mean, mobiles never heard of anyway. But they would- Yes, he would let me know but- For going over, as I say, he would write a letter and he’d put a cross on the bottom and he told me previously, if I ever do that, you know I'm going on a raid and- I mean, it was quite often he did that, and that was a night raid.
GT: So, you were in Clapham and he was in Mepal, so he would write you a letter, how long did it take for that letter to get from him to you? Couple of days?
ID: Just, different things that were going on, but nothing that would give away any secrets what so ever, never.
GT: Did he ever have any black marks on his letter?
ID: No [emphasis], no, that was only [chuckles] when this chap in the army was writing to me, I thought, ‘There’s not much of a letter left there, only a couple of words’, so silly. I mean, they never mentioned the war, I don’t know what the Germans were afraid of.
GT: So that was- Oh you mean the British Intelligence because they were worried about censorship of the letters, I understand, yeah.
ID: I’m sorry I didn’t get-
GT: So that was the censorship of the letters wasn’t it? So, so, ok, so did you ever go to Mepal to visit Mauri?
ID: To visit?
GT: Yeah, did you visit Mauri in Mepal air base?
ID: Oh yes, yes. In fact my granddaughter took him just after he’d had his first stroke when he was seventy-something to a base near Peterborough. She took him for the day, and he got down there and there was three chaps waiting for him, to show him around and then they took him into the officer’s mess for lunch, and they took him onto the plane and my granddaughter said, honestly, she said, ‘They were trying to tell him what was going on’, she said, ‘He absolutely floored them, he knew all, they didn’t have to tell him, he knew it all’. It had all come back, I was amazed, he’d had his stroke, but it wasn’t severe.
GT: Ok, but in World War Two though, when you were at Mepal air base, did you go into any of the pubs in Sutton or- And Ely or anything like that?
ID: Yeah.
GT: Yeah, which ones?
ID: Oh.
GT: All of them?
ID: The Green Man, was one, a little, a really little old pub, I don’t know, very, very old, very old.
GT: Chequers? The pub, Chequers? Or, The Green Pickerel? The Three Pickerels? No, ok- Well, now when Mauri finished his tour in December ‘44, what happened to Mauri after that? Did he fly anymore?
ID: No, he only did the four years and then he was put- Sent back home. Well, or course they sent him on a boat, and he I think went on the Rangitiki, and I went on the- The one I went on, was a patient carrier with like a sick hospital and if you have children, they had a special room for the children, and they get looked after for the night.
GT: So, did you have children by then?
ID: Yeah, I had Marcia.
GT: Marcia, oh, when was she born?
ID: She was born in 1940…- Halfway between 1945 and ‘46.
GT: And then when did you sail to New Zealand? When did you follow? 1946?
ID: I can’t- Yeah. As I say, we only took the normal- That they were supposed to do, and then we went back but, there was no planes flying there at the time it was all boats, and I know he was on one boat and I was on the next one, every stop- When we got to Suez Canal thing, he was on one side of the canal and I was on the other, and he rang me from there, yeah, and we spoke, yeah, I don’t know whose phone, whether it was their phone, his phone or any, I've no idea, but I was quite surprised but yes- Took six weeks to get there, six weeks [emphasis]. Mind, I enjoyed it. It was lovely, I got to know one of the chaps on the- That used to serve the meals, and I just used to say, ‘That was a nice pudding, can I have another?’, ‘I’ll see what I can do’, and he used to get me another pudding [chuckles].
GT: So, when you arrived then to New Zealand, what air- What seaport did you go into?
ID: Wellington. That’s when we came up on the train and I said to him, asked him each stop, Paekākāriki, ‘Don’t be silly Mauri, what is it called?’, ‘Paekākāriki’.
GT: And it’s still Paekākāriki. Oh right, so, Mauri was living in Auckland by then?
ID: Oh yes, his mother, she was English, she had gone there with her father when she was young from Essex in London. He had an antique shop and he opened one in- When he got to Auckland, he opened it in the next, what do they call- Oh god, New something it’s called, now I forget, and he opened it there and then he came- He went to live with his- Mauri’s mother had a sister, and he went to live with her, but he was a wonderful old man, him and I got on like a house on fire, he- I used to sit and talk to him and he used to say to me, ‘Nobody ever does that, nobody sits and talks to me’. He used to ask me about London, the tubes and things like that and he said to me one day, ‘The Elephant and Castle and another station, and then another one, but something happened to that middle one, what was it?’, I said, ‘It was bombed on the entrance and it flooded and eight-hundred people were trapped and killed, eight hundred people’. So, I loved talking to him because you could talk about England. But oh boy, I don’t think I enjoyed my days in England like I did in New Zealand, I loved Auckland. Absolutely, and never got to see the South Island, I never got there.
GT: So, how long did you stay in New Zealand then, before you came back to England?
ID: Nineteen years.
GT: You were nineteen years in New Zealand?
ID: I mean, the girl in the hospital just recently said to me, ‘Where do you come from? What’s your accent?’, I said, ‘I haven’t got an accent’, she said, ‘You have’, I said, ‘Well what do you make it?’, she said, ‘Australian?’ I said, ‘Oh gosh, no’, she said, ‘Then it’s got to be New Zealand’, I said, ‘Right, you’re right there’. Absolutely loved that country, I do. But my friend, Jan, the one I told you that married the chap with the timber mill, she died three month ago, ninety-six, the same- A year- No, a year younger than me and I was friends with her for nearly seventy years and we- Mind it was me, we never had a cross word. Well, it wasn’t me that was- It was her she wouldn’t argue with you. She came over, for my eightieth birthday as a big surprise. Absolutely wonderful, I was devastated when she died. But actually, she hadn’t been too bad and then suddenly her son sent a text message to Andrea and said that she’d deteriorated in the last three weeks.
GT: So, if we just go back to Mauri for a moment. Now, Mauri had a serious stroke in July 1997?
ID: Yeah.
GT: And he died a little bit later, yeah?
ID: He had another one, I mean he said to me- He’d had the stroke, for about two or three weeks and he said to me, ‘You know, I could have another one,’ I said, ‘Don’t say that, you’re wishing that on yourself’, he said, ‘Well, it could happen’, and it did. He was- When he was up in bed, couldn’t move. So I immediately got the doctor and they left the surgery immediately, they’ve only got to come down the road, and they looked at him and they said, ‘Yes, he’s had another stroke’, and- Before they came, he turned- He tried to turn over, fell out of bed on the floor, and I had to ring my son in law and say, ‘Please come and help, I can’t get him up’, he was a dead weight, and they came- I can’t tell you, a hundred miles along the high road to get here, but we got him up anyway and took him to- He was supposed to go to Queens but they took him to the city and he didn’t like the city, if only he knew today that that’s the better place than Queen. But he kept saying, ‘If you take me back to Queens, I’ll be ok’. But they put some tubes up his nose to his stomach to feed him, and he kept pulling them out [emphasis] and then they’d have to go down to the- Take him down to operating room, put them in again, he’d pull them out.
GT: Did Mauri ever talk about his time on 75 Squadron to you, after the war?
ID: Oh yes, yes. Probably- Not anything important, but he loved being a New Zealander, he really did.
GT: Did he like being a pilot?
ID: Yes, but honestly, my granddaughter has gone into everything that he’s done, she’s right up to date with them, but she did say that when he was tested. He did a course over in Ireland for weather. I mean, I don’t know why he did that, but he did that course, and on the thing upstairs, the picture with his medals, he’s only got five, and none of them are really important, they’re just medals that anybody would get, but he’s got this little thing at the bottom saying he did this course for meteorology. I don’t know why he did it, I have no idea.
GT: But his time with 75 Squadron, and for that matter, bomber command, he did his job with purpose and also because he was fighting for King and country, yeah?
ID: Yeah.
GT: Yep, and he didn’t have any regrets as to what he did?
ID: No, never, no.
GT: That’s good.
ID: He loved doing it, but as I say, when he was tested once, his landing. The chap said, ‘He needs a lot of review on the landing’ [chuckles].
GT: I’m sure he refined that later, yeah, well that’s fascinating. Alright, so then, if we go back to when your time in New Zealand then, when did you come back to England, to live?
ID: Well, the first time I came back after eighteen months I’d been there, I was homesick, but I’d no sooner got- And I was six weeks on the boat, and no sooner got back and thought, ‘I’ve done the wrong thing, I know I've done the wrong thing’. I couldn’t wait to get back, I couldn’t, but, as I say, I don’t know, I can’t remember if that’s when Mauri got discharged or what? But-
GT: Was this, was this feeling you had about homesick, was that the same for all the other wives, all the other ladies that followed New Zealanders back home?
ID: I- It probably was, but I never knew them after we arrived in New Zealand. I never had anything. I did- I kept in touch- Well he kept in touch with me, the chap that looked after Marcia in the- Where they were looking after the babies, he took to Marcia. I mean, one day the father was out of his house, and he had a little veranda, and he was on this veranda, he saw this car going up and down and it stopped in front of him, and he said, ‘Can I help you?’, he said, ‘I’m looking for the Dare’s’, he said, ‘Oh, it’s here, who do you want?’. He wanted me, and when I went out to him he had presents for me and for Marcia and he wanted me to divorce Mauri and marry him. I said to him, ‘You must be joking’. I mean, he was a nice enough guy but, I mean, he never on the ship, he never spent the money that he had for wages, because he kept- I don’t know why he kept them but, he said his father owned four warehouses, so I don’t know if he had money or not. I mean, I liked him as a friend, what he did for Marcia, but no way I wanted to marry him.
GT: So, did Mauri follow you to England, did he?
ID: Who?
GT: Mauri?
ID: Yeah.
GT: He followed you to England?
ID: Yeah.
GT: And how many years did you stay here in England then?
ID: Years.
GT: Oh, oh, from the time that Mauri left New Zealand you didn’t go back? Twenty years?
ID: I can’t- Oh gosh no, no, it was much less than that, much, much less. He said, ‘You know, if you want to stay here, I’m willing to do so’, and I thought, ‘Well, my mother and father died very young’, I said ‘Well, I've got relatives but they’re not that important, no, we’ll go where you want to go’. That’s when we went home and stayed with his mother for three month. Until Charlie got the offer of two flats and after he picked one, his mother said, ‘Why don’t you let Maurice have the other one?’. So that’s when, we went that night with Mauri’s father to this address we had, Mauri went down to the door, the father and I stood back, and he knocked on the door, all I heard was, ‘Mauri?’ and another voice, this chap from- That had the saw mill thing, he’d been with Mauri in 75 Squadron, so of course we got the flat. It was a big house, and he’d broken it up into three flats. So, we got the front one, and that’s when we became friends with Jim, and he, I mean his wife Jan from Scotland was having the first baby, and he said to me, ‘Can you, if I ring you at about three, I'll come and see you at three o’clock in the morning, will you come with me to the hospital?’, I said, ‘Yes of course I will’, and he did, it was three o’clock in the morning, he knocked on the bedroom window, ‘Iris’.
GT: Who was Jim?
ID: Jim?
GT: Jim wo?
ID: Taylor. The one that I told you, that Mauri had been with in the 75 Squadron. Jim Taylor.
GT: 75 Squadron?
ID: Yeah, and he’s dead now, he died, gosh, Jan- She told me not so long ago, a few years since he died. But he, was a clever man, he won the DFC.
GT: He was awarded it?
ID: He had-
GT: He was awarded the DFC?
ID: Yes.
GT: Yeah.
ID: He did something, but it was a- Like a navy and white stripe little badge and he won that. It was something for bravery, I don’t know what it was, I have no idea.
GT: Fascinating...
[The interview has been edited here as the interviewee spoke about personal, post war matters.]
GT: Well, the reason Iris that I'm in your home now interviewing you is because someone in your family saw my name on the internet and told Andrea, and Andrea contacted me only a matter of weeks ago, and whilst I'm travelling in England now, this is the reason I've come to visit you in your place, and-
ID: Well, Andrea told Marcia all about it and Marci said, ‘Don’t do it’, she said, ‘Could be a hoax’, I said, ‘Oh for goodness sake Marcia’.
GT: [Chuckles] I’m no hoax. However, it’s been lovely chatting with you about your husband Mauri who was on 75 New Zealand Squadron RAF, and he was part of Bomber Command, he joined the Royal New Zealand Air Force and also became part of the Royal Air Force in 1944. He completed a full tour of ops on 75 NZ Squadron, from Mepal and he obviously fought for King and countries [emphasis] ‘cause it was England and New Zealand he was fighting for.
ID: Absolutely, absolutely, but I didn’t know till you told me that he’d been to Canada.
GT: All training from the Australian and New Zealanders and Canadians and British later, but was done in the Canadian training scheme and various stations right across Canada. So the tens of thousands of airmen that moved across the pacific, they were trained in Canada and then they were shipped across to England to carry on their training before they joined operational squadrons, and some of those chaps may have trained for nearly two years, before they got to England. So, it was great dedication. All volunteers.
ID: Well, I do remember him mentioning- Well, I thought he said was Banff, and I got the idea that that was in Canada. It is? Oh [chuckles].
GT: There you go.
ID: But he didn’t talk much about it. Didn’t tell me much about that at all. I think he enjoyed being here, he liked England. I said, ‘No, we’re not stopping here, we’re going to New Zealand’. I was dead keen to go to New Zealand, but I didn’t think when he took me down to the boat, do you know? He went for free, but he had to pay for me and Marcia, and I can remember, it was a hundred and something pound, to pay for us to go there. I can remember him paying it when we got down there to the boat. Went from Southampton.
GT: There were many ships that went back to New Zealand with servicemen and wives from England-
ID: Oh yes, I know there was a lot went. I don’t know- Mind, a lot came back too. Glad to get rid of them. No, I was a very- After my first eighteen months, and I was homesick, was so stupid, and I went back and I thought, ‘Well I’ll never do that again’, and I didn’t, and I loved living in Auckland, absolutely. I was so happy there, really was. I mean, what’s? Oh no you wouldn’t know, this chap here, what’s his name? He’s a- He’s in the midlands, he’s dead now but- He died just recently. He used to have a- Funny comedian, funny stick, and I mean, when I first got to New Zealand, I got this job in credit control and where I lived the houses were there, and then there was the road and then more houses, and another one behind that, and that one the bus used to go round there and come down our road. This lady, was on the bus- Oh quite a few days, and I got to sit next to her one day and I got talking, and she said, ‘I’ve just had a CD from my cousin in England’, and I said, ‘Oh what does he do?’, and she said, ‘Well, he’s a comedian but he’s not very well known’. So, I said, ‘Well what’s his name?’, and she mentioned it and I said, ‘Never heard of him’. Well, it was only after that I realised when I came back, who he was, and he was very well known. I mean, I didn’t realise that was her cousin. Amazing how you meet people. But I met a lot of people from New Zealand when I came back here, that had come back and I used to say, ‘Why did you come back [emphasis]?’ I would’ve never (apart from my first eighteen months), I would never have wanted to come back. As I’ve said to Andrea many times, ‘I wish I had never left’. Honestly, it was only through- We used to go to bowls, and he met this couple from South Africa, they were there and her father became very ill and they were called back to South Africa, and they must’ve said to Mauri, ‘Why don’t you come to South Africa?’. He came home one Saturday, he said, ‘Do you want to go to South Africa?’, I said, ‘What for?’, he just- Our house that we had, when we bought it, was ordinary, ordinary windows. He took them all out, he put ranch sliders in, he’d built the kids bedroom furniture, and I mean, he used to say, ‘I’m not a good carpenter’, I’d say, ‘You’ll do me, absolutely, very good’, I thought. But, Jim Taylor, the one that he was with in the 75th Squadron, as I say, they owned this timber company and Mauri ordered some wood from him once, and they were delivered, put on our front lawn. But you think we could get Jim to give us a bill? And Mauri said, ‘I can’t ask him for any more wood, if he won’t take the money’. He was a lovely man Jim. He idolised Marcia, ‘cause when she was three-month-old, he used to take her about nine o’clock at night, when it was dark, outside and he’d say, ‘What’s that Marcia?’, she’d say, ‘Tar’ and then he’d say something else that didn’t refer to the star, ‘What’s that Marcia?’, ‘Tar’ [chuckles]. He loved it.
GT: So, what did Mauri do as a job once he came back to England?
ID: He became- He went to a warehouse and he’d been there before the war, think he’d been there from leaving school, and he got on very well with- In the linen department there was a man that was manager of the linen department, and Mauri became manager of the linen department.
GT: And where was that?
ID: In Auckland.
GT: And once you guys came back to England, what did Mauri do then?
ID: I think he stayed there until we came back here, and then he got a job with Paton and Baldwin Wools and he worked for them for quite a while, and then my eldest daughter was married to a chap who was a managing director of a big curtain company, and he got Mauri a job with them. But, I mean, Mauri found out that this son-in-law wasn’t very nice and he didn’t want to make any arguments about it, but this son-in-law had said to somebody, ‘He got the job because I got him the job’, and Mauri said, ‘I was told’- He told me, ‘I said to him did you help get me the job the job? He said, no you got it on your own merit’. But he lied. Mauri was very upset.
GT: So, when did Mauri retire?
ID: What?
GT: Did he- When did Mauri retire?
ID: I think it was- It’s changed now, it was sixty, sixty, that’s when he retired.
GT: Retired at age sixty. Brilliant. Well, Iris, you’ve had a rather a bad couple of months there with tripping over and falling out of your car and injuring yourself badly, and now breaking your wrist et cetera, so I’m very honoured that you’re able to sit here and tell me about your lovely husband and his career and your life, and, I think it’s time now for me to finish our interview and the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln will be very pleased to hear of your time and your recollections from that era, which obviously you were a great part of, and also marrying into Bomber Command people.
ID: Well, I’ve loved every minute, I really have, I’ve enjoyed it, and it was so [emphasis] nice to meet you.
GT: Well, thank you very much Iris, and it’s lovely to meet somebody from the 75 Squadron people and I'm very grateful for, for your daughter allowing me to come and have a chat with you, and from your injuries I hope you mend well, ninety-six, that’s a tough road.
ID: Well, I'm glad you met Andrea.
GT: Yep, thank you very much.
ID: She’s a lovely person.
GT: Yep, that’s good and she looks after you very well I can tell
ID: But, she’s so like her dad, she really is.
GT: Yeah.
ID: She perspires like him.
GT: [Chuckles]
ID: When he used to do the garden, she’d have to put a band round- It used to stream down [chuckles].
GT: But obviously he was a great flyer and he committed himself to King and country and that’s, that’s a huge attribute.
ID: Yes, I think he was pretty good, apart from the landing.
GT: Oh, I think he got better.
ID: This chap said, ‘Leaves a lot to be desired’ [chuckles].
GT: But he completed a full tour of ops.
ID: Do you know what? When we got back to New Zealand and he’d finished with the RAF, there was an ad in the paper that Qantas were looking for pilots, the same day the RAF were asking for pilots to come to England and he thought, ‘Oh, dear what should I do?’. So, he applied for both, and he got both [chuckles] and then when he said, ‘Which do you want me to take?’, of course I said, ‘England’ stupidly, and that’s when we came back. But then once we got back permanently, I said, ‘I don’t want to go back there, I really don’t, I’m quite happy here’. But I mean he said, you know, I mean, he didn’t have much to do with his mother and father, although his father was a very nice man, the mother didn’t like her at all. She just took a dislike to me, I don’t know- I never did anything to her. When I got to Wellington, she was there to meet us, she took Marcia out of my arms and walked away. Never said hello, the father turned round and he called her, ‘Mum, aren’t you gonna say hello to Iris?’, ‘Oh, hello’. All she wanted was Marcia because she’d only had two sons, she wanted a daughter.
GT: Well, it’s amazing that you guys came back to England because many, many British brides stayed in New Zealand for the rest of their lives, and you must be one of the few that came back this way. But look, Iris it’s lovely to have chatted with you, thank you very much for allowing me to talk with you
ID: You’re more than welcome.
GT: And, and I wish you well with getting better and so, thank you and we’ll sign off our interview now yes?
ID: Thank you very much.
GT: Thank you, Iris, bye-bye.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Iris Dare
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADareI180704
Format
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00:58:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
New Zealand
Switzerland
England--Cambridgeshire
England--London
England--Stockport
New Zealand--Auckland
Wales--Swansea
England--Lancashire
Description
An account of the resource
Iris was born in a village outside Newcastle. At the beginning of 1940 she went to Gosforth to join up for the Royal Air Force. Iris liked the idea of uniformed service more than the option of becoming a nurse. She was then sent to Swansea for about 18 months to train as a balloon operator, which involved a lot of heavy work. She was paid £1.30 for two weeks but loved her time in the Royal Air Force. Iris was posted to Stockport on balloons but later on she became a driver. She explained what working on balloons involved – splicing ropes, lifting concrete blocks and looking after the balloons. Nicknamed 'softy', she allowed her eight girls to go to the pub while being the corporal in charge of 16 girls, eight working each night. Despite her brother’s help, the balloon got loose and was eventually found in Switzerland. Iris went to the London area for three weeks to be tested for her sergeant’s stripes, which she gained although she admitted that she hadn’t deserved them. She then returned to Swansea, but she did not like Wales because people used to speak in English, but when they saw them in uniform, they switched immediately to Welsh so that they could not be understood.
Iris met Maurice at the New Zealand Officers Club in London and they married eight months later at a church that had been bombed the day before at Clapham Common. Maurice was born in June 1922 in Newcastle. In January 1940 he joined the Royal Air Force and from 1944 he flew as a New Zealand Lancaster pilot with 75 Squadron Maurice had completed a full tour of operations. In July 2019, Norman McDonald and Alf Bannon were the only two surviving members of his crew, still alive in New Zealand. Maurice never expressed regrets about what he had done during the war. His brother Charlie had been a prisoner of war. After Maurice finished a tour in December 1944, having done four years, he and Iris went back to New Zealand. Their first daughter, Marcia, was born in 1945 and Andrea followed. They stayed in New Zealand for 19 years before returning to England. Before the war Maurice had worked in a warehouse. After the war he became manager of the linen department of a warehouse in Auckland. On return to England he got a job with Paton & Baldwin Wools.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Adalberto Di Corato
Tilly Foster
Jean Massie
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1944
75 Squadron
aircrew
ground personnel
Lancaster
love and romance
military service conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Mepal
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1203/11776/AWilliamsRS180115.1.mp3
013f78dd9e7081e681585d2c9c682061
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Williams, Ronald Spencer
R S Williams
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ronald Spencer 'Roly' Williams, (1921 - 2019, 4215269 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 75 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Williams, RS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: This is Monday the 15th of January 2018 and I’m at the home of Mr Roland Spencer Williams, known as Blue or Roly. Born 18th February 1921. RNZAF air gunner NZ4215269. Flight sergeant. In Christchurch New Zealand. Roly joined the RNZAF in 1942. Trained in Canada and flew with 75 New Zealand Squadron, Lancasters Marks 1 and 3 from March to July 1945. Hello Roly, and thank you for allowing me to interview you. Please give us some insight and a little bit of history of where you were born, where you grew up and why you joined the RNZAF.
RW: Well, I was born right here where I’m living. The district I’m living now. And so I have never known anything different really. Why did I join the Air Force? One night laying in bed I thought well this war is going to last a long time. Do I want sand in my feet or do I want mud or do I want to bring up my breakfast every morning? No. I think I’ll join the Air Force. So within a day or two of that I went up to the recruiting depot in Mackenzie’s Arcade in Christchurch and made out an application form. And the first thing they said to me, ‘Have you ever flown?’ ‘No.’ ‘Why not?’ ‘Because I haven’t had the opportunity.’ ‘Why not? Do you know anyone that flies?’ ‘Yes.’ I knew two people who had pilot’s licences but they were both years older than I was. But they couldn’t make out why I hadn’t been up for a trip. However, they accepted my application and I got to don the Air Force blue. I first posted to Omaka, just out of Blenheim. Full summertime. Full heat. We were parading on the tarmac. You got the backs of your legs sunburned. And then I went to just out of Palmerston North. Milson. And then I was shifted to Gisborne. And then at Gisborne we had that well known Air Force man running us. Tiny White. It was a bit of a holiday really up there. We were aerodrome defence and our defence was a Canadian two land barrelled rifle with a six inch bayonet. Pig sticker. The whole things was worse than, worse than useless. Absolutely useless. But I met some good friends in Gisborne and from there I moved to Rotorua. It was there that the medics took over and they found that my eye sight was out of kilter. We had to line up the two sticks horizontally. I was miles out so they said I couldn’t land a plane. So that destined me to air gunner or AG W/Op. From Gisborne we down to Trentham for a while. I presume while awaiting for a vessel to come in. And we were unloading ammunition there until the wharfies complained bitterly that we were working too hard, unloading too much and it was too dangerous and they were going to declare the port black if we carried on. Then came the call to report to RTO in Wellington and we were moved alongside a ship called the Nieuw Amsterdam. The Dutch vessel, the Dutch captain wanted to sail on the tide. There was quite a lot of gear still to go on including I don’t know how many bottles of Red Band beer. Crates and crates of it. We offered to put the Red Band beer on [laughs] once again the wharfies came up to the mark and said if we handled that beer at all they’d declare the port black. Hence my disapproval of wharf labour [laughs] The Nieuw Amsterdam was crewed mainly by Javanese and that. And of course, we had our duties to perform which was usually something to do in the cookhouse. The Javanese all had long aprons on and the concrete floor in the cookhouse was swimming in water. We used to wait until one of these little Javanese had gone past us and the apron was no use, stamp our foot in the water and up it would shoot up the backs of their little legs. That caused no end of problems. Then we had, I was told eight hundred and fifty German prisoners of war on board and they would come up about 2 o’clock in the afternoon from down way below water line for a bit of sunlight. And they told us then we were going to ‘Frisco. We had no idea where we were going. We went to ‘Frisco. We had a wee bit of trouble with them on one night. And the next night I was on guard duty and one prisoner called up that he was ill. So I had to get the doctor and go down there. And the bunks were about two foot apart, at least four to five high and we went down to see what was wrong with him. Apparently, it was suspected appendicitis and at any time the cordon could have fallen out on top of us and we had no hope. And the sten guns we had, well that blocked up with rust. It wouldn’t have mattered anyway [laughs] From ‘Frisco we landed on the station there and they were getting on doing a film there. They had all the Hollywood celebrities there. Then it was, I forget whether it was five and a half or six days on the train to Winnipeg. You know, through Kicking Horse Pass and that was wonderful scenery. Blue Lake. We got a station off Winnipeg and when we got into Winnipeg the station was all locked up. Apparently, the stationery owner on the previous station had rung through and said that some of the troops had tried to grab money and books and that from her stationery shop and so they’d rung through to Winnipeg and sealed it all up. The, I suppose the brightest spark on that trip was the last few mile. The big negro porter came in who we had not seen the whole trip and he had his hat in his hand by the peak and he says, ‘The boys have taken up a little collection for me. How’s about it boys?’ [laughs] He got the bum’s rush really. He forgot he was dealing with Kiwis. On to Winnipeg. That was, we were based at an old school for the deaf there. That was like going back to school again and I’d been away from school for five years. So it was pretty hard going. Most of the intakes then were UI entrants, or first year university boys. It was fairly hard going there. And then as a gunner I was posted to Macdonald which was a gunnery school. And at the finals there we had the drogue. Air to air firing with the drogue. Of course, being W I’m last on the list, very used to it by now because I was always, always the last on the pay line. It was very unfortunate for someone who was below me. And I was last in the turret. And I knocked the drogue down into the lake. Lake Winnipeg. So we had to come back, more ammunition and start all over again. And damn me if I didn’t do the same thing again. So they gave us all average marks. I maintained if you could hit that turnbuckle your lead was right. But it didn’t make any difference. So —
GT: What aircraft were the target towers? Ansons?
RW: No.
GT: [unclear]
RW: What was the Canadian Blenheim?
GT: The Bolingbroke.
RW: Bolingbroke. Yeah. Where did we go to?
GT: And no one shot the aircraft though.
RW: Oh, no. No. The aircraft was safe and sound. It was just the turnbuckle at the end of the drogue.
GT: And you got it twice.
RW: Took it twice. So then when I got to Padgate, which was the clearing station just out of Manchester a chap named Woody Woodhall, a wounded gunner was there and he took one look at my logbook, he said, ‘You trained at Macdonald didn’t you?’ I said, ‘How’d you know?’ He said, ‘From your score.’
GT: So, from, from your logbook, Roly you’ve got, you’ve got your pass out results for the ab initio gunnery course and the period of the course was 27th March 1944 to 16 June ’44. And so then you, you arrived into England what? By about September 1944?
RW: Oh yeah. About that I think. At that stage I didn’t take very much notice of time. I was more interested in where I was going and what I was going to do. So we went down to Devon. Just out of East Budleigh in Devon. Oh, what’s the name of that station? What was my first station there?
GT: I don’t know Devon.
RW: It’ll be in the logbook.
GT: You’ve got 11 OTU, which is up north.
RW: Yeah. That I know.
GT: You crewed up at 11 OTU.
RW: That would be in the front of the logbook won’t it? Westcott. I was stationed at Westcott. Well, we were flying Wellingtons here.
GT: Yeah. From September. September 1944 you joined 11 OTU.
RW: Yeah.
GT: That’s fine. Yeah.
RW: Yeah. The big thing about Westcott right at the end of the runway as you took off was the imprint of a Wellington that had burned and the imprint had burned into the ground. It would still be there today, I think, honestly. It wasn’t a very good sight. And then we moved to a satellite station there.
GT: Oakley. Oakley.
RW: Oakley. Yes. Coming back from a leave to Oakley we watched a flying bomb fly parallel to the train. It was at no great height whatsoever and we wondered where it was going to land. When we got back we found it had landed up into the Rothschild estate at Oakley and it was filled with [pause] printed matter.
GT: Propaganda that is.
RW: Propaganda matter. Yes. Then, oh where did I move to then?
GT: Did the Rothschilds take any notice of that at the time?
RW: No. We never heard anything about it. No. Just that it was a non-explosive one. It was a propaganda thing.
GT: Roly, looking at your 11 OTU Westcott time you did sixteen hours during the day. Eighteen hours at night. A total of seventy three flying hours at Westcott and Oakley. And then you moved on in January ’45 to 1655 Conversion Unit, North Luffenham.
RW: North Luffenham. Yes.
GT: So, yeah, Roly can you tell me a little bit about your crewing up?
RW: Oh.
GT: Because it happened at Westcott, right. So a lot of people have a lot of stories to tell about how they found their crew members. Have you got a story about that? have you got a story how you found your crew and skipper?
RW: Yes. I’ve got to think this through. I teamed up with the mid-upper gunner because we trained together. Pete Dixon from Auckland. And we were walking down to the flights one morning and talking about crewing up and I met a chap I knew. Neville Staples. ‘G’day, Nev,’ I’d gone to school with him. I said, ‘Are you crewed up yet?’ He says ‘No.’ I said, ‘Well, you are now.’ So, that was the beginning of the crew. Well, in the next couple of hours we had got a skipper, Bill Evenden who, we believed anyway I don’t know whether it’s right yet, had been a commercial pilot in South Africa. And then we picked up our bomb aimer, Tom Lane. And then I was looking for a pushbike because of the propensity of getting a pushbike and selling it at a small profit and I met a chap that said he had a pushbike for sale. He turned out to be our wireless op, so he got snared. The last one to join the gang of course didn’t arrive until OTU at North Luffenham was the engineer. A Welshman. We had to have a Welshman with a half English crew and half Kiwis. We had to have a referee somewhere [laughs] North Luffenham. I thoroughly enjoyed that time. I remember once we were sent out on a cross country at about 11 o’clock at night. The country absolutely under a white blanket of snow. We had to go to Galashiels and off we went. No. Sorry, we didn’t get off. We had engine trouble so they gave us another aircraft and the second aircraft also had engine problems. And so about 2 o’clock in the morning we set off to do a cross country. Other than that it was a fairly quiet period. I thoroughly enjoyed that time although it was a cold, cold area in wintertime until the call up came to the chop squadron. Now, I had heard about this since ’43. It was well known amongst the gunners. In effect I know two people who refused to go. Both got put onto different squadrons. One was a radio op. The other was a pilot. Because of the reputation we had. I don’t, it never worried me what squadron I was going to. If your luck was in it was in and if it was out it was out.
GT: So 75 New Zealand Squadron was referred to as the chop squadron.
RW: The chop squadron.
GT: Back in early ’43 when they were flying Stirlings.
RW: Yeah.
GT: From Newmarket.
RW: Yeah. Definitely.
GT: And that reputation kept on going for the next couple of years.
RW: Kept right through. Yeah. Yes. Oh yes.
GT: So you had no choice. It was, that was your posting. To 75 NZ at Mepal.
RW: If you’d like to object you could have. Yes. There will be hundreds of chaps say you couldn’t object. I know two that did. And both got put on other squadrons there. One completed his tour and went on to flying DC3s and that. The other one must have just about completed his tour as a radio op. Yeah. So they didn’t hold it against you.
GT: There were many that’s told me that they deliberately chose a New Zealand skipper so that they would get posted to 75 New Zealand Squadron.
RW: Didn’t make a bit of difference.
GT: Yeah.
RW: Well, the CO when I first went on the station was an Englishman. Fortunately, he went quickly. But the best CO I had of course was Cyril.
GT: Wing Commander Cyril Bateman.
RW: Absolutely.
GT: He joined the squadron in January ’45 after the newer CO, Newton was killed on New Year’s Eve.
RW: Ray Newton I knew personally. He was a traveller for Smith and Smith’s. And he was a great loss. He was a good skipper. A good skipper. He was a great loss. But Cyril put a new breath of life into the squadron in as much as he was young, the youngest wingco in the force, I think. And nothing was half measures. It was all or nothing. That’s what he got there.
GT: So, I see from your logbook and, and to those listening I’m reading out from Roly’s logbook because Roly is severely sight impaired so I’m helping him with, with some of the facts and figures here that obviously he wrote many years ago. So 1653 Conversion Unit, North Luffenham you joined the 29th of January ’45 and you departed after the 27th of February ‘45 and you flew Lancasters only. So that —
RW: Yeah.
GT: Included being a Lancaster finishing school. Flying, I guess at that Conversion Unit because you didn’t go to an LFS. They did everything at 1653.
RW: Yeah.
GT: And it says here that you flew a total combined flying time of twenty six day and eighteen night hours and then you joined 75 New Zealand Squadron at Mepal on, in early March 1945.
RW: Yes. Well, Mepal was a bit of a surprise. Being a wartime station the conditions were not very good. In fact, they were pretty poor. And here again we had to have a bike to get around. He, I don’t know that [pause] we filled in our time greatly with skeet firing. We didn’t do a great deal on the aircraft. We left a lot of it to the staff. The ground staff. They’d been doing it for five years. They knew exactly what they were doing. They knew what we wanted. And so I never had any complaints there. They were great.
GT: As a gunner did you clean and move your own guns and fit them?
RW: No.
GT: What was the story there?
RW: I left it entirely to the —
GT: The armourers on the squadron.
RW: The armourers on the station. The only time I had trouble with my guns I was on a night flight. A bit of heavy flak around. And all of a sudden the guns went dead. And all of a sudden my right foot was warm and I wriggled my toes and it was wet. Oh Jesus. I’ve got one. And I waited for the pain and the pain didn’t arrive. And I was still wriggling my toes around and they’re getting wetter and wetter. And it suddenly dawned me and I fished around and I pulled the top of the hydraulic hose out of the top of my flying boot [laughs]
GT: Could you put it back on?
RW: No. In the darkness and that, all those gloves on and that, no. I didn’t know even how to put it on. I suppose it clipped. I don’t know. However, I had to put a cord in my pocket. It had a couple of loops in it that fitted over the pulls on the guns and looped around. I could put my foot on it. And I could rotate the turret by hand.
GT: Right. And I must ask were you a rear gunner or a upper, mid-upper.
RW: Rear. All of us couldn’t leave the rear turret. You want to see where you’ve been.
GT: Yeah.
RW: Yeah. So I got some semblance of order back in. But the laugh of the matter was that the next day I took the heated flying suit down to stores to get replaced and they threw it back at me. How they expected heat to transmit through an oil soaked flying suit I wouldn’t know but that was the situation.
GT: And you wore it and it was —
RW: I wore it from then on.
GT: Oh.
RW: I had trouble with it once again. In fact, I lost the entire heat once there. I was that cold I wouldn’t have given a damn what happened. If you ever wanted something to happen quickly it was then.
GT: So you really, all your crew relied totally on those heated —
RW: Yeah. Oh yeah.
GT: Flying clothing.
RW: Yeah. Yes. Well, the point was that from the minute you gave the order for to the skipper to take evasive action you were in the hands of the gunner. Only he knew where the fighter was. Now, when we went on to daylights this became quite apparent because at night time you didn’t see the fighter until you saw the flare from the muzzles. If they were pointing too directly at you it was too bad. But in daylight you could follow the whole pattern there and when that fighter broke off usually it was a beam attack from above. Sometimes it was slightly below. The gunner was in complete control because only he knew where the fighter was. Fortunately, in the event we got no problem with them. We were one of the lucky ones there. But it was only the that when we went on to daylights that I realised how dangerous the night flights were. Over flights were common place. And in one of my last trips I saw three planes go down. The first one I was watching when it disintegrated in the air. The air just boiled. You could see it rising. Boiling. Just liquified. That was a direct hit in the bomb bay. That chap, I believe was Jack Plummer. He would, it should have been Jack because he would have been leading C Flight formation. He was the flight leader there. The second plane was only a very short time later, perhaps half a minute when I saw a bomb leave a plane above and come down and hit the plane below fair in the mid-upper turret. It just broke it clean in half. There. There was a body came out. I never saw a ‘chute. Within a half a minute because we wouldn’t have been in the target area any longer than we had to be I saw another Lanc collapse a port wing. It just collapsed right back at the inboard motor. And he just went into a spin and never came out. Those three chaps I think were Plummer, Barr and Brown. I had quite an interest in Brown. He was an Auckland boy and he, his first trip after his second, second dickie trip which was a night trip was a daylight and he had engine trouble going out but he followed on quite a way behind us but around about oh fifteen thousand if that. And he pushed on through the target. The Huns threw everything they had at him and he pushed on through the target. Target. Returned home. And I never heard a word of praise. Not a dickie bird there.
GT: That’s a true DFC.
RW: Oh, there were dozens of them around the bloody office. That was the trouble. The, he certainly deserved mention for it there. Then there was the 14th of July. Was that Kiel?
[pause – pages turning]
GT: The 9th of April.
RW: 9th of April.
GT: Yeah. Your fifth operation, to Kiel harbour and it was night time. Five hours forty. And that was the Admiral Von Scheer.
RW: That’s the one. Right. On that one we had engine trouble the minute we hit the English Channel. We had to close it down and the skipper called up and said, ‘Well, do we abort? Or do you want to carry on?’ ‘Carry on.’ Unanimous. So we did. We were a wee bit behind. We couldn’t maintain the height exactly, nor the speed. So we cut off a dog leg and we went, must have picked up a tail wind because all of a sudden Neville called up and said, ‘We’re over the target, skip.’ And I looked out and it was complete blackness and Bill, the skipper called up and said, ‘I’ll do a circuit,’ which he started. And we just got well into the circuit when the master bomber came in and he dropped his TIs and I saw where they fell. And I’d noted where the Hun set up their dummy TI markers and I directed the bomber stream on to the right ones there. And then the skipper called in and he said, ‘I’m going in.’ The reason being he knew damned well he couldn’t get back on to the bomber stream and get into that so because we were early, ahead of anything he goes straight through. Which he did. We dropped our bombs and everything was alright. The next day we get back and the CO calls us in the office. ‘What the hell were you doing bombing on that heading?’ So we told him and he listened. He said, ‘Bloody good show. You got an aiming point. You hit the bugger.’
GT: And the target was the ship.
RW: The target was the ship. Yeah.
GT: And you got bombs on the ship.
RW: Yeah. And well the aiming point was the target and —
GT: Yeah.
RW: We got it on. We then got the report that she was upside down in Kiel Harbour. Now, the Admiral Von Scheer was the sister ship to the Graf Spee. The Von Sheer had suffered some damage in the North Sea and when the time came for it and the Graf Spee to break out to get in to the Atlantic she wasn’t in a fit state. So she stayed up and was repaired up in north —
GT: Norway.
RW: Norway. There. The Von Sheer of course met a sticky end in the Battle of the River Plate.
GT: The Graf Spee. Yeah.
RW: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. True. So, so that was the Admiral Von Sheer that you helped sink with your aircraft, on the 9th of April.
RW: April.
GT: ’45.
RW: Yeah.
GT: And then on the 13th of April, a Friday you noted, you were detailed for the Kiel ship building yards.
RW: The Kiel ship —
GT: And that was your sixth op. Was there anything special about that one for you?
RW: No. Kiel had taken a pretty fair sort of a hammering and things were not that bad around there. It was all those towns leading in towards Kiel. The industrial towns, Hamm, Bad Oldesloe, Gelsenkirchen. All those. They were the sticky ones. So Kiel wasn’t that bad really at that stage. I would say perhaps in ’43 and that it was a sticky one.
GT: You have a note here your undercarriage collapsed on landing. From that op —
RW: Oh yes. We never heard the full story about that. I don’t know really whether we had damaged the undercart or whether it was a tight landing. But they don’t land gently at forty feet up.
GT: And were you injured that, that night?
RW: Yes. Looking out the back was just a sheet of flame as we tore down the runway and I thought, ‘This is not the place for Blue. Get out of here.’ So I rolled myself into a ball and went out the side. When I came to I was back at the aircraft trying to open the side door to let the boys out but the ground staff held me back and opened the door and let them out. And then the blood waggon grabbed hold of me and tried to put me in the waggon. But I decided that wasn’t a very good place either because I didn’t want to leave the crew. Nor anything, leave anything else. So I drifted in to the darkness. I never ever reported any injury but I’ve carried it for the rest of my life. I got two compounded discs which are now really set in place.
GT: Well, you flew another couple of months after that accident so —
RW: Yeah. Oh well.
GT: Were you in pain ever since?
RW: Yeah.
GT: So that was your operations five and six. Number seven was Heligoland.
RW: Ah. A brilliant day. I remember we took off about 2 o’clock in the afternoon. A brilliant day. As far as I could see was aircraft. We were quite early. We only had to fly to the Wash and gain a bit of height. We were almost leading the stream. And when we got to the target the clay from the cliffs had come down into the surf and was just starting to wash out into the water and you could see the German e-boats coming out and making a run for it. And the Mustangs and the Spits that were flying overhead cover you just see them drop a wing and down they’d go and all of a sudden the wash from the e-boats would be covered in the surge from the water. And the whole thing had just subsided into nothing again. I saw a documentary a couple of years ago on that. It was on television where they showed photographs of the damage there and I was amazed at how flattened the place was. There was nothing left standing there and as I say when we got there the cliffs were falling into the water. I’m not surprised. It was just fair pounded. It was a seaplane base and as such controlled movement into the North Sea.
GT: You noted nine hundred and eighty Lancs that night.
RW: Nine hundred it were, was it?
GT: I beg your pardon. That day.
RW: That’s what would be, we would be given.
GT: Your eighth trip there to Oldesloe rail junction. Six hours dead.
RW: Oh yes. Bad Oldesloe. That was a day trip too. That was the first time I’d seen railway lines flying. And we had just come out of the dropping the bombs, still in the target area, looked down and here was a whole section of railway line, sleepers all intact, flying up through the air. And I thought the buggers are coming up this way. It must have been hundreds of feet in the air. Yeah. Do you know they most like had that railway line back in twenty four hours with their forced labour.
GT: Wow.
RW: We spent thousands dollars getting planes there to blow it up. There would only be a few hours before they had it back but we would have disrupted them for quite a while. Yes.
GT: Well, that was your last op.
RW: Yeah.
GT: You completed eight. And that was on the 24th of April ’45. And your next trip to Europe was on the 4th of May. Supply dropping for the Hague.
RW: Oh yes. Oh dear. We were just crossing out of Ireland towards the Hague when all of a sudden black dots appeared in the air. Some bugger had fired on us. We were told we had safe passage through the air. We, we got to the target which was a racecourse so we dropped our supplies from very low. How someone wasn’t killed there I don’t know. Most likely someone was because the minute the food was dropped they just rushed out and I think it was a case of who got it. The Dutch or the Germans. Because one would have been as bad as the other. The Germans were collecting it to send home because they were starving too and the Dutch of course were starving. They were dropping in the streets there. There’s not much sustenance in a tulip bulb. I have met a woman who was nursing at the time and working for the Underground. And she had some quite exciting experiences running maps and all those sort of things amongst her medical gear to the Underground, and dates and that for meeting places. But those girls certainly deserved worldwide mention. Yes. The things weren’t easy. They were all on pushbikes and if they had a rubber tyre on their push bike the Huns would confiscate it and send it home. So they had rope wrapped around. Things were not easy at all. But when we got back from the Hague trip we of course were all cocky. We would up, start and go and bomb the hell out of them but that got frowned upon. And in recent years what I’ve read and what I’ve heard there’s a dispute whether they fired on us or not but I saw three go up. So they can fight that one out amongst themselves.
GT: And what was the kind of food you were dropping and what did you do? You stuck it in the bomb bays —
RW: All American. Here again the much of America proved its worth. Flour, sugar, beans, bacon, tinned meats. It was mostly spam and ham and that. All stuff that could be stored for a wee while too because no good sending perishable stuff that would disappear a couple of nights later. We didn’t know anything about this operation. It had taken place days before. They had worked out the flight plans. They had also loaded up the planes. And I think they were just waiting for the right weather. The right day. The right time. It was suddenly all on. That was operation manna.
GT: And it was the only briefing you got was the morning of the —
RW: Morning of the trip. Yeah. Yeah. Amongst the chief staff they’d have known all about it, about it but as far as the aircrew were concerned it was kept right away from us. Some just [pause] mention about that too. No. We didn’t know a great deal there. As I say I heard later on that there was no firing. Well, I’d seen enough to know it wasn’t scotch mist up there. No.
GT: Did you, did you see any other aircraft doing the same thing other than aircraft from 75 Squadron?
RW: Oh yes. It was about 75. Now, Operation Manna was a full 75 operation. There was only six of us went to the Hague. Most of the rest went to a target in North Holland. It’s well documented there. So it often made me wonder why, when we went through the target we were about second or third through there were very few behind us for, you know a main major food dropping operation. That was the reason. Because there were only six went to the Hague. Most of them went to another target north, in the north of Holland and I can’t think of the name of that target.
GT: It was at least three days that 75 dropped food and I’m assuming there was other, other squadrons doing the same and as the Americans did as the Chowhound side. And I’ve seen movies of the American side and they were the only ones dropping food. There was no mention of the British doing it so, but nonetheless there was many other RAF squadrons that —
RW: Oh yes.
GT: Participated on Manna too.
RW: Oh yes. There were other squadrons that participated to other areas. Yes. Well, it had to be a full op because I think at the time we had thirty three planes in the squadron. On my reckoning we put up thirty two. And on a report that I saw there was six planes went to the Hague and there were sixteen went to this other target. So that was thirty two. So it would have been an all out effort.
GT: The Dutch have built a Memorial to Operation Manna in Rotterdam. Have you seen that?
RW: No.
GT: I’ve been several times to it and to civil services. It’s fabulous and it’s built there specific. Especially to thank you guys for. The Dutch are forever thankful for your doing something.
RW: Yeah.
GT: To give them food and life.
RW: Oh well, it’s it had to be done somehow.
GT: Yeah.
RW: And had the Germans not been in such dire straits because they were starving too. They were not the only ones. The bombing had taken toll and also the sinking of the submarine fleet had taken its toll. They were not getting supplies through so they were in trouble. So anything they could get, lay their hands on that went back to Germany smartly. Yeah. And I can’t blame them for that.
GT: No. So, there was several other flights. I’m looking at your logbook again and the next one through to Europe was 25th of May, was a Baedeker. And the particular cities you mention here Frankfurt, Hanover, Düren, Aachen, Cologne, Koblenz, Hamburg, Bremen, Munster, Brussels etcetera. Seven hour flight. So, so tell me about the Baedekers and what they were about, please.
RW: That was [pause] the name came from a German who had had a tourist agency and a Baedeker was one of his tourist trips. We went from place to place to place looking at the war and so, ‘we did a Baedeker,’ was going over places that had been bombed to get an idea of the damage and assess the damage in those towns. Now, a place like Aachen which was on a bend in the Rhine river which was a perfect spot for a take-off for almost any target around there was absolutely flattened. You looked down on Aachen there wasn’t a roof left. If there was a wall standing you just looked in to the space where the roof had been covering. That’s all. Cologne. Wrecked all around the cathedral. Cathedral not touched. There you are. Good luck again. Absolutely.
GT: Was the Baedekers done by other squadrons? Was that a name given it from up high? Command?
RW: Yes. It was listed on the ops board as a Baedeker. I suppose other squadrons would have done it too. They’d want an assessment of the damage.
GT: Who did you take with you on those flights?
RW: Just us. Just the crew.
GT: And you photographed or filmed anything?
RW: Not officially. The, no [pause] that was the silly part about it. Had it been worked officially they could have got some marvellous shots there and been able to assess the damage really well from the photographs because they’d had so much practice assessing bomb damage. Even in London. But unofficially I had a little 620 Kodak in my pocket. I got some shots out of that. When I came home my father never once asked me what I’d done. But when he saw the photographs they got spirited away and I’ve only seen half of them since. He died in ’72 so I don’t know where they are.
GT: So, from, from your experience and it being right near the end of the war which obviously raged for some time then did, did Bomber Harris have a choice? Or did he do it right do you think? Was there anything talked about on the squadrons as to —
RW: No.
GT: No.
RW: You had a job to do. The hierarchy said that’s how you did it. You did it. Of course, he was right. Yes. All over one town. All the controversy. Absolutely. Like these woman getting raped in the film studios now.
GT: So, for Dresden was it something that was talked about?
RW: No. No. I wasn’t on Dresden. Had I have been on Dresden that was just another target. All the stuff going to Russia was going through Dresden by rail there. It was a railhead.
GT: A legitimate target. Yeah.
RW: Legitimate. Yeah. But also they were producing war material. No.
GT: Still doing it. So, did you see any fighters? Any aircraft come up to, to get you or escorts get them or —
RW: No. I never. That way we had a pretty charmed life. But afterwards I met a German at the aircraft museum where I was guiding and he was a radio operator gunner on an ME 110 which was firing vertically.
GT: Schrage music.
RW: Eh?
GT: Schrage music.
RW: Yeah. Schrage musik. And he was fighting for the ace. Flying with the ace. Prince someone who had been shot down during April and the German boy had parachuted out. And he gave me a booklet about the prince. Prince [Englestein] or something like that. He was a genuine Prussian prince and he had terrific career. There’s no doubt about that. He accounted for lots of planes. I think he, off hand he had about thirty odd he’d shot down. And I think we lost eight Mosquitoes in one night over Berlin with night music there. No one knew they were there. They came in on radar. We never picked them up. They just flew underneath ‘til they were slightly ahead of us, fired backwards. Curtains. Yeah. it was a wee while before they learned that they had to get ahead of the plane and fire backwards. Initially the flew underneath and let it go and of course they flew in to all the debris. Yeah.
GT: Now there was, what was mentioned of a ventral gun position in Lancasters?
RW: Yeah.
GT: Do you know of any ventral gun users at 75 Squadron etcetera that used ventral guns.
RW: We carried one on one trip. He was an Englishman that had done quite a lot of flights and I think he had been in hospital. And they must have taken out a panel in the fuselage towards the rear of the aircraft and they put a gun position in there. Now it must have been on a swivel mounting. I didn’t take any notice of it because to get in to the rear turret I climbed over the tail beam which was ahead of what his mounting would have been. So I didn’t know anything about it and when we got over the target I could hear this gun rattling. What the hell’s he firing at? And he went absolutely berserk over the target. We got back. We reported in. And we never saw him again. I think he just broke down over the target.
GT: During my trip to England last year I met with a 75 Squadron under, under- gunner and he said that he was going to arrive on squadron and then he and two others were picked and they disappeared for training for a week or two and then were just dropped off outside dispersal. And there was one aircraft each flight on 75 Squadron with an under-gun that flew for the last few months of the war. So as a gunner I’m interested to hear from your point that you managed to fly on one of those aircraft and he and his gun was assigned to that one aircraft as opposed to crews going over in anything so —
RW: Yeah. We were —
GT: Very intriguing.
RW: You see that was the only time I ever heard of it. An underbelly gun. Nor did we see him again so he must have been hospitalised surely. He just broke down completely. Yeah. At, I think by that time too they had got to a stage where they thought they could cope with night music in as much as their radar was better than us. We have to admit it. They could come in on radar. We didn’t even pick them up. We had nothing to pick them up with. I went on a course on — in Yorkshire of the radar gunsight. Fishpond it was called. Where the rear gunner had a oscilloscope in the turret and all he did was look into the oscilloscope and when the German plane came into view monitor its course in. Gauge its distance away. Once it got into the centre there all he had to do was press the tit and wait for the result. It never happened. Not only could they pick our radar up they also had better radar than us to pick it up with. And so fishpond was a disaster.
GT: What was the turret that you flew with in flight every time?
RW: FN.
GT: Yeah. Mark 8?
RW: I wouldn’t —
GT: Yeah. It was just four three. Not three guns.
RW: Four 303s, yeah.
GT: And how many rounds of ammunition did you normally carry for each gun?
RW: Two thousand two hundred.
GT: And did you get any shots on anything coming in to you? Or targets.
RW: I was a miser. I never fired the gun unless I had to. And if I did have to I might have a quick burst. It was no [laughs] no good exposing yourself if you didn’t have to. If he was going to press on the attack all well and good. That’s up to him. But don’t look for trouble. No.
GT: There’s many movies that show, ‘Rear gunner, test your guns.’
RW: No.
GT: You were never told to do that.
RW: No.
GT: Didn’t need to.
RW: Didn’t need to. No. The armourer had them all loaded for me and everything. All set to go. Yeah.
GT: So, as a tail end Charlie did you choose that position?
RW: Yes.
GT: And you’d know that tail end Charlies had a very low percent rate of survival? Didn’t matter?
RW: I don’t know whether I ever knew or not. I didn’t care.
GT: But you liked it.
RW: That’s the point I wanted was there. Yeah. When you come to think of it, it was a much better position than the upper turret where you were sitting in a sling all the time. God, no. I wanted to see where I’d been.
GT: Did you have to use the can at all?
RW: I should have but I didn’t. We had a rule. You didn’t use the can unless it was absolutely necessary. I think there must have been the odd time when the can was used. I never used it. But there was one time when I was puffing at the cheeks. I was bursting. And we got back on to the ground on the station and we taxied to a halt and I was sitting on the step with the pilot type ‘chute there. And I grabbed hold of the sides of the doorway and I heaved myself out. But unfortunately, my ‘chute caught on the lip of the step and tossed me face forward. Down I went. When I came to the ground staff were standing over me and there was blood everywhere and the bloody rigger says to me, ‘Wouldn’t your bloody ‘chute open mate?’ [laughs] Out again. I’ve never had that pee because I forgot all about that pee [laughs] I think in my time I had more humorous bloody episodes than I had dangerous ones.
GT: Did you have a good crew?
RW: Yeah. A bang on crew. Bang on crew. Nev, our navigator, spot on. We never missed a target. We were always within QE of time with that one exception. Bill never failed us. Radio operator was bang on. The bomb aimer and the engineer for Lancs, Herbert Morgan. A good Welshman. He was an engineer in normal life and he was a good engineer. We were a good workable crew. I don’t say we were top class or anything like that. If anything went wrong we overcame it. We always got to the target and we always got home. What more do you want?
GT: And what flight were you in, Roly of 75 Squadron.
RW: B Flight.
GT: B Flight.
RW: Yeah.
GT: It states on your logbook here your summaries. Operational sorties forty four hours fifty five. Baedekers seventeen hours. Post mortems seventeen hours. Food dropping two hours twenty. Army co-op four hours. Training thirty hours.
RW: Oh yes. We did a bit of army co-op work.
GT: Yeah.
RW: Co-operating with the army as they moved up through Holland and that.
GT: And summary. Aircraft was Lancaster Marks one or three. Operational. Seventy four hours by day, eleven hours by night. Training twenty eight hours by day. One hour by night. So you have a grand total of day hours one hundred and three and night twelve hours twenty five in the end. Total a hundred and fifteen hours. That’s still a huge amount of of time served. And so therefore your last flight on 75 New Zealand Squadron was the army co-op.
RW: Oh yeah.
GT: On the 13th of July 1945.
RW: ’45.
GT: And so the end for your crew you must have had many other crew members standing there wanting to get flights I suppose. Were there?
RW: At dispersal was again was another humorous situation. We were told that we were going to Lincolnshire. And amongst us was a [pause] Oh God, I’ve got his name too. A, what this for a wing commander.
GT: Squadron leader.
RW: Squadron leader. Squadron leader. Well, when we were leaving of course we all had bikes and that. We couldn’t take our bikes and we left them all against the side the toilet. And we weren’t the only crew in the truck either. There was a whole swathe of bikes there. And I looked out and I saw the toilet man coming up and I knew he sort of collected bikes. So out of that truck. And I said, ‘How much for that lot?’ and I’ve forgotten what he said now but it was a few pound there. And I said, ‘Right, they’re yours,’ and I climbed back in the truck and of course they all wanted the money for their bike. I said, ‘You tell me how much I got for your bike.’ So I was the one holding the cash. [laughs]
GT: Entrepreneur Roly.
RW: Oh, you’ve got to be quick.
GT: Yeah.
RW: The, the place we went to, the CO there was a squaddie too but he didn’t have the experience of the one that was with us. So he came to us and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘They haven’t got rations for you. What do you want to do?’ I said, ‘Look, draw ration cards and put us on leave with a leaving address.’ ‘Good thinking.’ So that’s what we did. So we drew ration cards and Pete Dixon the mid-upper gunner and I high tailed it to London and I never saw any of the crew after that. They just dispersed. I didn’t see Pete again after I left him in London. [pause] He would have come home on the Andes as I did. But when we got aboard ship I went down to our quarters and, oh boy. They were a long way down. And they weren’t very good. So Blue says, ‘Now, look here Blue. You’ve got to do something about this.’ So I went up on deck again and I saw a staff sergeant there. I said, ‘G’day. What are your quarters like?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘They’re not too bad.’ I said, ‘Have you got room for another one?’ He said ‘Yeah. I think so. We’ll go along and have a look.’ So I went, we went along and sure they were miles better than we had. I said ‘Right. You’ve got another staff sergeant on your list.’ So I came home in their quarters.
GT: So you finished as a flight sergeant by rank.
RW: Yeah.
GT: And you came back on the Andes.
RW: Yeah.
GT: You were saying. So what port was that leaving from?
RW: Southampton.
GT: And did you have white Lincolns fly over with Baigent at the control. That would —
RW: I doubt whether I could see them.
GT: Oh, you were down.
RW: Because the air was white as it was.
GT: So, that was your tripping back to New Zealand so how long did that take? That sailing. A couple of weeks.
RW: Twenty one days. Record trip.
GT: And what, did you come through the Suez or the Panama?
RW: Suez. Yes. Suez. Now, there’s something else on that bloody trip.
GT: Because the Japanese war was still going, wasn’t it?
RW: The Japanese war was still going then. Yes. Yes.
GT: So you had to be careful for Japanese submarines, I guess.
RW: Well, I think the Yanks had them reasonably well bottled up by then. The drive down south would be well and truly held up. But there was, there was something else.
GT: So, when you arrived how long did you stay in RNZAF? Did you stay around as a territorial or —
RW: No.
GT: Demobbed straight away.
RW: There was no future in that for a gunner. I demobbed straight away and went back to work after. I had a month off. My mother and I went around the North Island visiting some of her relations, and mine I suppose. And I came back home and I couldn’t stick it. Life was too slow. I had to get back to work. So I went back and where I was working the boss there had a son the same age as me. An only son. An only child. And Ray had everything he wanted in life. Unbeknown to me he had joined the army and been transferred into the ack ack squadron which I was in before I went into the Air Force. I was in the Bofors. He would have been in the 3.7s I would have imagined because the 3.7s had taken over in the port. But ack ack base by this time.
GT: That’s here in Christchurch.
RW: In Christchurch. Around Lytteleton Harbour. Yeah. And all those crews were mustered together and taken up to the islands. And unbeknown to me the crew Ray was in was dive bombed by a Jap dive bomber and cleaned out completely. And so there was quite a few that I knew that had been on the Bofors with me cleaned up on that too. And so had I known that I wouldn’t have gone back. But I didn’t and so I went back so it must have been a pretty hard pill to swallow that I came back and Ray didn’t. And he called me in the office and said, you know I’d been off the tools, I was a joiner, for five err for three and a half years. I’d take a bit of catching up again and I said, ‘Well, look. How about we call it quits and I’ll move out,’ and that suited him. And I got on the tram and went home. I got off the tram at the street where I lived and a local builder lived first house on the street and he was there unloading an old Model A car. ‘Any chance of a job, Mr Allen?’ He said ‘When can you start?’ I said, ‘Now.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Make it Monday morning.’ So Monday I went along there, we loaded up the Model A and off we went to the first job. And I worked with him from ‘46 through to ’53. And in ’53 he came to me and he said, ‘Can you raise five hundred pound?’ ‘Oh, a tall order.’ He said, ‘Well, do you think you can do it?’ I said, ‘I’ll give it a go.’ So I managed to raise five hundred pound and I went into partnership with him for twelve months. He put in five hundred. I put in five hundred. We came out, split the difference and went on our ways. But of course in the meantime I had to do the plans, do the pricing, keep the books. He provided all the work, and we had plenty of work on hand and utilised his good name on all the business accounts and he, and in ’53 I went into the bank and changed over the bank account from the dual names to my name and took over. And then the hard work set in. Boy, if I was ever in bed before 11 o’clock and up again at six it was a great night. Drawing plans and that. I heard a knock on the door one night and a joker standing there with a plan under his arm. It was that door and he said, ‘Could he get a price on this plan?’ ‘Bring it in.’ So we went to the table there laid it out on the table and I took a look at it and there were pencil marks all over it. It was filthy. I said, ‘How many prices have you had?’ He said, ‘You’re the fourteenth.’ I just rolled it up, handed it back to him and said, ‘If there are thirteen other chaps can’t satisfy you I can’t.’ That was the end of that one. It was from then on I learned that that’s what you strike in business. Boy, I struck some hard ones here.
GT: So as a joiner this was all internal fitting.
RW: Well, I’d, as a joiner I’d done building construction and that you see. And then what I learned in ’46 through to, oh Charlie Wood had his eye on me. I suppose about ’49 he had been wanting to ease up. Yeah. What I’d learned from him then it was like learning another trade with him then, you see.
GT: Do you have a family here?
RW: No family. No. My wife and I. My wife died in ’72, I think. Yeah. But she was incapacitated too. And there was no family unfortunately.
GT: And you’re in the Brevet Club here in Christchurch.
RW: Yeah. I joined the Brevet in 1953. It started in ’52 and I joined early in the ’53. At that stage we had a membership of five hundred and fifty. She was a go ahead club but it was a boy’s club. They were still boys and they played as boys. We played it hard. And we got a name for it too where lots of places would not allow us in their premises. We got thrown out of one or two. But all in all we boxed on and gradually as age took over we settled down. We had presidents that went horse riding on the west coast and fell off and broke their arms. I don’t know. Some of the things that went on. We used to go on a picnic outing. And we had a big chilli bin and that was a big one. That was filled up with the grog. We had another chilli bin that had a little bit of food because you took mostly your own food. Also in the food chilli bin was a bottle of rum and a bottle of milk. And on the bus out to the venue we’d have a stop and there would be rum and milk. Now, I wasn’t very partial to rum and I was only a lone voice but I reckoned we should have whisky. So I persisted with this whisky and in the way, in the end I got my own way. And [unclear] down they got to whisky and milk. But then, you see a lot of the football clubs, these trips were spot on. They were never anyone obstructious or anything like that. We all knew our place and we stayed in it. We enjoyed our drink. We enjoyed our day out. We came back a little the worse for wear I admit that. But there was no trouble on the bus or anything like that until the football clubs got in to it. And then they lost control of it.
GT: Yes. It’s rugby football or football football.
RW: Rugby football.
GT: Yeah. Not football football for our English listeners now. Yeah. Some people have got sight that it’s football.
RW: Rugby football.
GT: Rugby football is big here in New Zealand.
RW: Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
RW: And that’s when it fell by the wayside. We were not allowed to carry on carrying liquor.
GT: Yeah.
RW: On the bus. They stopped that. Which of course put a dead halt on it. So then we started going to venues. But it wasn’t the same. You go to a venue and have your lunch. They put on a lunch and they provided the liquor but it wasn’t the same. There was not the camaraderie there and so that’s fallen by the wayside. And so, now bus trips are out but we have dinners once a month at a venue. The Chateau in the Park usually where they supply the meal and they put on the liquor and you drink as much as you like but it’s pretty quiet now. We’re also, all of us are now dragging a leg anyway [laughs] But that’s what happened to the picnic trips and had the Rugby Clubs not got into it because they lacked control of the younger players. That was the trouble. Ours were wild enough in certain venues when you got, got over the west coast boy there was nothing wilder than the Brevet Club. But then that’s what the west coasters expected. They, usually they led it. You know [dear] Scott and Co would be right in there, boots and all.
GT: When you came back from Europe, from the war in particular in the years that rolled through did you find that New Zealanders didn’t want to know what you guys went through? What happened over there. Was that a feeling you felt? Because many I’ve talked with said they just got on with life and many didn’t want to know and as a subsequence they suffered for it later on.
RW: I don’t know that they didn’t want to know. They didn’t even know what had gone on. Our papers never carried a great deal because it was all hush hush there. And so there are only illustrated magazines that came out that showed bomb damage or something like that. But then how could anyone sitting on a settee here relate to bomb damage in the East End of London? There’s not a hope in hell. And so they didn’t know. And when they talked here about rationing, yes we had rationing here. They had so much sugar and soap. So much of sweets and all the rest of it. It was only a fraction of what they had over there of the rationing. Jeez, I first saw a banana in London the kids stood with it in their hands. They didn’t know what it was. Hell. They had no conception of what people had to go through in wartime in war areas. We were alright here. Well, mum could still send me over a cake every now and again. Admittedly it had to come off her ration cards some. She most likely had to save up a bit for it. But at least she could still save up and still manage in the household. Over there you couldn’t have saved up if you lived to be as old as Methuselah. No.
GT: And you enjoyed your time in the RAF. RNZAF. I know it was wartime but some people —
RW: Yeah.
GT: Made good of it. Others —
RW: Yeah. Best time of my life. I learned more, I did more, I grew up more. But I must say that I didn’t grow up until I got back in to civilian life here because those years, my late teenage years I should have been learning. I wasn’t. I was learning something. That was how to keep alive. And it wasn’t until I got back here into civilian life and saw how people acted and reacted and that that I realised what I had missed in my growing up years. I had women on a pedestal. Absolutely on a pedestal. And it wasn’t until I got back here and when I was nearly thirty and I found out what they were like. They can be on a pedestal when they want to be.
GT: Did you have any affiliation with the Wigram Museum at all?
RW: Yeah.
GT: You did a whole lot of work with them, did you?
RW: Eighteen years as a guide there.
GT: Yeah.
RW: Yeah. Now, a great museum. A great museum. Did great jobs there. Some of those reconstructions were great when you worked out what they had to work with there. Planes like the old Hudson and that was a complete and utter wreck. They got it back into a viewable shape and that. The Oxfords. The Ansons. The working on the Wildebeest. Well, they were the first planes I saw when I was stationed at Gisborne was a Wildebeest. We had to go out and protect them at night with our Canadian long branch rifles. All we did was try to shoot pukeko at night with, with a 303.
GT: A moorhen. Yeah.
RW: Yeah.
GT: So, as a guide at the museum there were obviously children and others came through the museum. Were they interested in World War Two and Bomber Command and things? Could you, could you share your experiences?
RW: Not greatly. Not greatly.
GT: They weren’t interested.
RW: Today, I was with, there was only, I suppose two or three World War Two jokers there. The rest were all post-war.
GT: Today, this morning, you were at a funeral.
RW: Funeral. Yeah.
GT: For another World War Two veteran that’s just died.
RW: And even those post-war chaps have got no conception of what it was like. The post-war boys played at playing Air Force. They did a good job in Vietnam and that. I’m not saying that. There must have been times that were a bit sticky there but in comparison they were playing. Yeah. God, stuff the lizards you know, if there was a plane surplus to requirements on the station — take it away for a weekend. Didn’t happen in my time. No. The one time I do know where a crew took a plane away and it must have been in ’43, a joker named Ewan Knox, he would have been a flight lieutenant I would imagine took a Heinkel 111 out with a load of boys on leave and they crashed into the hillside somewhere. They were all killed. Now, you can look up Ewan Knox’s name and all about him in that booklet that’s in the museum. There’s a, there’s a master booklet there of all their names. His name is also on the Memorial plaque in the museum there. And no doubt you can google that name up. New Zealander Ewan Knox.
GT: So did, you got to meet and got to be very good friends with some very famous World War Two flyers.
RW: Oh.
GT: Johnny Checketts, and you mentioned Chuck Yeager to me earlier.
RW: Yeah. In as much as I spent quite a bit of time with Johnny at the museum and it was a common thing between us to talk about events that had happened. And then I went down to Wanaka, to the War Birds with Johnny and met obviously [pause]
GT: Chuck Yeager.
RW: Chuck Yeager, down there and had a great yarn with him. We had entire an entire dinner hour with him yarning and they both said the same thing there. That on these daylights they used to sit up there and watch the bomber stream going into the target there through this cloud of anti-aircraft fire. And it was so black I could smell the cordite through my oxygen mask. I I breathed pure oxygen from ground up. I switched on immediately we were taking off. I switched my oxygen on because I believe the more I could get in my blood the more I could stay awake. And you could smell the cordite. The fumes leaking through it. You could hear the shrapnel rattling down the sides of the fuselage there. Thrown off by the props. God only knows what condition some of the props were in. But it would all be light stuff I admit. The stuff that was thrown off there. But that’s how black the cloud was. And as Chuck said, they used to sit up there and watch them going and hope that they’d come out again. I suppose when one came out, right. Thumbs up.
GT: Fascinating. Fascinating indeed. Well, Roly. Blue. It’s, it’s time perhaps we wrap up our interview. But —
RW: Yeah.
GT: You’ve, you’ve said plenty for me.
RW: Good [laughs]
GT: Anything else you’d like to add before we, we finish?
RW: Well, I enjoyed my time in the army.
GT: The Air Force.
RW: And I had a chance of staying in the army. Captain Chapman asked me if I wanted to stay and I said to him well, we were very happy. I was doing well there. I could see myself doing quite well there. And he rang in and said, ‘’I’ve been in touch with the Air Force and they say you’ve got to go.’ So, that was the end of it. I thought, well now I’ve got to go I’d better make the most of it. Make the best of it. But to me brought up in a Victorian family it was such a different life. Also, I was brought up in a country life. We lived out here with the hills all around us. I went to town twice in the school holidays. Once to buy Christmas presents if I had any money and second to get my school uniform. Other than that I was running in the hills and that was all I knew. And when I was eighty I could scamper through the hills better than my grandson who was eighteen [laughs] Yeah. So that was my upbringing. I knew where every rabbit lived, where every morepork lived. I knew where all the wild pigeons were roosting and where they were feeding and what time they’d come home to roost. Yeah. There wasn’t a thing I didn’t know that went on in that, up that valley there. Yes. And when the ducks, when the south westerly weather came in and the pond came at the bottom of the rifle range there amongst the rushes I knew exactly when the ducks would come in. We had duck for dinner then. You didn’t need a licence when you were close to home [laughs] I know. That was my early days. And so I never had a great deal to do with people. I didn’t know how to talk to people that were older than me. I knew how to talk to my age group because I knew what they would be interested in but I didn’t know people who are older than me. And I sometimes feel I still don’t because lots of times I want to bring up the ante sometimes. And sometimes it doesn’t go down [laughs] I can see now many many things that take place that I’m highly critical of. And if I get too critical it meets with a very sad reception. But believe me it’s my belief and I think I’m right [laughs] And if I don’t think I’m right who else is going to? No.
GT: Fabulous. Thanks, Roly.
RW: It’s been an uneventful life in some ways. And events all came up all of a sudden. The years I was building was damned hard slog. All, nearly all hill work. One foot below the other all the time and that. Lifting everything up. Very seldom did you strike a job where you could slide it down. And I met some hard people. Especially the women folk. God. I struck one woman, one woman that I had a scaffolding up to do the barge boards and that on the roof. And she said to me could I leave the scaffolding there for her painter so he could paint that part of the house? I said, ‘Yes. I’ll leave it there for a week.’ God. I got lumbered with a two month bill for the scaffolding. Ran into bloody hundreds of dollars then. I went to her. She just laughed. So eventually I got around to taking her to court. I couldn’t get the, get the summons on to her. She was never at home. So I noted too that she went shopping on Fridays. Excuse me I’ll have to —
GT: Right [laughs] I’ll tell you what, Roly. Roly, it’s been lovely. Thank you very much for your interview.
RW: Ok.
GT: And I’m sure the international Bomber Command is going to welcome it.
RW: My pleasure.
GT: Thanks very much.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Roland Spencer Williams
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWilliamsRS180115
Format
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01:50:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Roland Spencer Williams was born in Christchurch, New Zealand. Wanting to get involved in the war he joined the Royal New Zealand Air Force in 1942. After initial training in New Zealand, as an air gunner, he sailed on the SS Nieuw Amsterdam to San Francisco in 1944 and then by train to Winnipeg, Canada to MacDonald Gunnery School. September 1944 saw his arrival in England as a flight sergeant. Training and crewing up in Wellingtons with 11 Operational Training Unit (OTU) was followed, in January 1945, by Lancasters in 1655 Heavy Conversion Unit. In March 1945 he was posted to 75 Squadron based at RAF Mepal as a rear gunner. He describes operations to Keil harbour (where the cruiser Admiral Scheer was sunk), Keil shipyard, and Heligoland. On one operation he saw three planes all shot down, and on another he was injured when the aircraft’s undercarriage collapsed on landing. He was also involved in Operation Manna. After the war in Europe finished, he sailed back to New Zealand and was demobilised immediately on arrival. He then describes how he became a builder and ended up managing the business. He also became a guide at the Air Force Museum of New Zealand. Roland states that his service in the Royal New Zealand Air Force was “the best time of his life!”
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Germany
Canada
New Zealand
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kiel
Manitoba--Winnipeg
Manitoba
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
11 OTU
1653 HCU
75 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
Bolingbroke
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
crash
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Mepal
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Oakley
RAF Padgate
RAF Westcott
shot down
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1119/11610/ASelwoodFN180113.1.mp3
07968231c4eb928c7fc6e934518e3a15
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Title
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Selwood, Francis Neville
F N Selwood
Description
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An oral history interview with Neville Selwwod (1924 - 2018, 4215756 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 75 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2018-01-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Selwood, FN
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Transcription
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GT: This is Saturday the 13th of January 2018 and I’m in the home of Mr Francis Neville Selwood, known as Neville, NZ 4215756 of Dunedin, New Zealand. Neville was born 12 June 1924 in Invercargill, New Zealand. Neville joined the RNZAF in 1942, trained as a navigator in Canada and joined 75 New Zealand Squadron at RAF Station Mepal 31st December 1944 completing twenty four war ops, two Manna drops and numerous Exodus flights in Lancaster Marks 1 and 3. Neville’s crew were stood down in late June and he arrived back in to New Zealand October 1945. Neville, thank you for allowing me to interview you. Please begin by telling us your story. Where you were born, grew up and went to school.
NT: Ok, Glen. I was born in Invercargill. I went to Middle School. When I was about five or six Kingsford Smith and Charles Ulm flew over Invercargill and landed and my dad took me along to see the plane coming in and saw it on the ground. Having seen it in the air I thought my gosh I’d love to be able to do that. Well, in 1931 the Depression came along. My dad had to change what he was doing and bought a little farm out of Invercargill at Myross Bush. And we lived on the same road as the Southland Aero Club operated from three miles further along the road and I became a school mate of the boy that lived on the farm so I spent a lot of time there and watching the little planes from the Club take off and fly around. And a few others went with me but we were never offered a flight or anything. I always longed that someone would take pity on us and say, ‘Jump in.’ It never happened. There was an Air Pageant I do remember. It would be a bit after 1931 and bit before the Second World War. I’m not sure which year but planes flew in from all over New Zealand including the RNZAF planes. There was a Bristol fighter and there was a big Wildebeest, and had the roundels on them and that and these airmen there in their kit and that further reinforced my idea that this was where my future should be. Anyway, I went to Southland Boy’s High School and one day I got laid out in a rugby match and had to retire from the field and was sent home. I had to ride seven miles on a bike and I found I couldn’t manage it at all and I ended up walking bit by bit all the way home taking frequent rests on the way. My mother put me to bed for about a week and I went back to school and they decided I couldn’t play rugby any longer and told me to join the Harriers which I did. I eventually turned eighteen and as everybody had to register at the age of eighteen I registered of course and I had already spent about two year in the Air Training Corps. Number 12 Group in Invercargill. So I put down a preference for the Air Force and a few months later I joined a boy from, another boy from Invercargill. We travelled on the train, picked up another young fellow at Mosgiel and ended up in Christchurch for a medical exam which we all passed. Then we went home and waited to be called up, which happened to be December 1942. So I was really eighteen and a half when I officially joined the RNZAF as a prospective for air crew. Had a bit of difficulty getting my mother’s signature to the forms that you had to get parent’s permission to get in to aircrew. My dad wasn’t too difficult to get because he had medically been unfit for the First World War and his brothers in law had great war histories and what not, and my brother was already away in the Army. So dad signed the papers alright but mum, I just couldn’t crack her into doing it but I nagged and nagged at her and one night in a moment she decided to sign the papers. Well, that was great and we had a rural delivery box outside the house and the envelope to the right place with my enlistment papers was posted in the mailbox and we all went off to bed. I didn’t go to sleep. I had a sneaking suspicion mum would change her mind overnight. So I got up and in my pyjamas, rode my bike about a mile up the road and put the envelope in another farmer’s letterbox. And sure I enough I had to face up to a very angry mother in the morning. She had done exactly what I had thought she would do. She’d changed her mind and decided she wasn’t going to send those papers forth. But they were on their way and I duly got called up and was up in Levin in December before Christmas and got my first leave home at Christmas after just getting all the inoculations and injections. And I was at Levin in the Aerodrome Defence Unit, the ADU. Went back there for a while and ended up at Taieri near Dunedin in the Aerodrome Defence Unit again. A lot of military drill and so on. The first station I went to of course was Levin, near Wellington and we did the bayonet course and yelled out all sorts of profanities at the hay-made bodies that were supposed to be Japanese that we were bayoneting and climbing over these things. So that’s how that all began. And when we got to Taieri it was more route marching and drill with the rifle and so on and keeping our huts clean and tidy. And eventually, early in the 1943 was off to Rotorua for Initial Training School there and I already knew a bit about aircraft recognition and oh quite a few little things about navigating and airmanship and so forth, and eventually went before a selection board and was apparently found to have the right aptitude to be a pilot. And to my great relief and surprise I ended up down at down at Taieri training on Tiger Moths. Well, that soon turned out to be a disaster. I was quite hopeless in the air. Disorientated, giddy, got a supreme headache and when I’d get out of the Tiger Moth I couldn’t sort of balance right. Staggered around. After about three sessions they had very little time at all. Possibly up one and a half to two hours. The instructor said, ‘There’s something not quite right about your health situation,’ and he said, ‘I’m going to recommend that you go and see the medical officer.’ Which I did and he duly put me in the base hospital. I was there for two or three nights and he managed to wheedle out of me that I had had rather bad knock at rugby and he said I was suffering still from concussion and that Tiger Moths weren’t doing me much good with their propellers whizzing around and the noise and what not. So he, he grounded me and put a medical certificate on the top of my file so I had to remuster to ground crew. So very shortly after that I found myself being taken into Dunedin to catch a train to Lyttelton and I met a fella who was also a grounded trainee pilot by the name of Jim Freestone who hadn’t managed to go solo in the allotted time and we ended up at Rongotai. And there were quite a lot of fellas there called Grey Wolves who had failed in their initial pilot training and were being held until some other aircrew occupation came up for them. It was mainly dependant on what shipping there was to Canada. But anyway I had to go before a selection board to decide what ground crew trade I had taken on. Fortunately, I ended up with a one man selection board and he was a flight lieutenant who had done either one or two tours of duty in England in Bomber Command early on and was back working in Air Ministry in Wellington. He had a look at my file and said, ‘Now, what are you going to do in ground crew?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m not interested in ground crew.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’re in the Air Force now and you can’t get out of it so I’m afraid you’ve got to choose something. So tell me what you’d prefer to do.’ He said, ‘I see you’ve had a bit of office background here.’ So he said, ‘You could probably get into the accounting section.’ And I said I wasn’t interested in that. So he said, ‘What would you be interested in?’ I said the only thing that would interest me would be crewing on an air sea rescue craft up in the Pacific. I’d read about them in the Air Training Corps Magazine, “Contact.” And he said, ‘Oh, you like a bit of speed and whatnot. Why did you actually join the Air Force anyway?’ I said, ‘Well, it was to fly a Spitfire.’ Which he laughed and said, ‘And so did I,’ and he said, ‘And I ended up in a slow old — ’ I’m not sure if it was a Whitley or Hampden to start off. So he said, ‘You don’t always get what you want.’ So he said, ‘But you sound a keen type.’ And he had a look at my file and said, ‘Amazing how many papers mount up on your file once you join the services. One here for this and that. Every inoculation you get and everything that shifts around,’ he said, ‘Here it is on your file.’ He said, ‘On the top of it is this medical report saying that you’re not fit for aircrew.’ He said, ‘I think maybe there’s still a place for you on aircrew. I’ll just take this medical report off the top of your file. I’ll put it about third from the bottom and,’ he said, ‘I guess it’ll never be noticed again. Stay with the aircrew boys and we’ll see what happens.’ Well, we all got sent off to Rukuhia near Hamilton on the North Island by the river there in the winter. And we weren’t there very long before quite an influx of fellas came down from Roturua that had been selected to go to Canada for training other than as pilots. They lorded it over us because they regarded us as utter failures and we should be sweeping hangars and so on. That made us pretty keen I think to show that we still had some use and the commanding officer there anyway there sort of knew there was disruption. We were all waiting for shipping and word came through that an American ship was coming in to Auckland and could take I think it was a hundred and twenty of us and he decided to hold an examination and I did pretty well in it. And because I did pretty well in it they decided I should be a navigator. My friend Jim Freestone didn’t do quite so well. They decided he should be a bomb aimer and so on. The next group of marks went to wireless operator/air gunners. And that’s how it came about that I was selected to be a navigator. And in August ’43 we joined this little freighter from the President Line having been told we’d have a very comfortable journey on a ship of the President Line. And my mate Jim Freestone said, ‘That’s wonderful. The President Coolidge is a great ship.’ And we eventually got a great meal in a restaurant and taken down to the docks on a Saturday night and duly formed up and of course I was in the S to Z flight and he was in the first flight being a Freestone. And we had a bit of free time in between and he came along and said to me, ‘It might take a while to find each other on the, on this big President ship,’ he said, ‘The first time we get any free time,’ he said, ‘Make, make your way to the Purser’s Office and I’ll do the same and we’ll meet there.’ They got marched off into the gloomy night. There were just little lights here, there and everywhere illuminating things. And eventually the S to Zs were called to attention and we marched by several outlines of big ships and then we were halted outside a thing that looked about a quarter of the size of the ones we’d walked by. There was a little gangway and there was a Yank with this little doughboy cap on, as grubby as anything with a fag hanging out of his mouth alight and he just sort of grunted and moved his arm to climb up the stairway. And I had these two kitbags. I understood one was to go in the hold and the other one went with you in the cabin because a couple of years earlier my school mate from the one teacher school had gone away and in his letter home to his mother he’d told her about the wonderful journey he’d had to Canada and how a steward took one kit bag from him when he boarded and another one took him to a cabin and another one told him when his bath was drawn and they had a menu to eat from. It was on a ship that was on its last trip before it was converted to a full trooper. So I very naively expected someone was going to take one of my kit bags. One had a blue band around it and one had two. But nobody did. And I could hardly see the fellow in front of me but we went down another gangway. Another fella sort of beckoned us on and I went down another one. And I thought ah well the war has gone on a bit obviously you take your kit bag down to the hold yourself. Then we wandered through. We went through a smelly big room with a lot of fellas moaning and groaning and they were being attended to by orderlies and they were marines being invalided home from the Islands. And we went through them in to the very bow of the ship. The fo’c’sle. And there’s my mate Jim Freestone standing there looking aghast and said, ‘It didn’t take long to find each other did it?’ There were six bunks. I think there was six along the side of these steel plates straight up in the bow of the ship down the bottom of it and that’s where we were. And every time we came out we had to go through this sick room. Some fellas were more or less in cages. Others were dying, and as they died their bodies were put in a cover and put in the freezer room. Well, we stayed tied up in Auckland all Sunday morning. We went for our first meal. Queued up and we had the steel plate given to us with the divisions in it and then some pretty scruffy fellas. One ladled come cold beans in one part and someone ladled a bit of bread in another part and another friend of mine three in front of us suddenly put his hand over his mouth and disappeared. Later on we found him standing and leaning over the railing vomiting into Auckland harbour. The smell and the sight of what we were going to eat had been so dreadful I think. So we took our plate in the afternoon about 3.30 and I never thought I’d made such a bigger mistake in my life. I thought my gosh I wish I was home with you. I just saw the coast line of New Zealand gradually getting harder and harder to see and eventually it disappeared and we were on this boat. Had two so called meals a day which most of us just couldn’t stomach. And it was a ship of the President Line but it was built to carry coal down to South America. We didn’t find out for many, many months that the President Coolidge had been torpedoed or something and run aground on the islands out in the Pacific. So, we were on our way to San Francisco. It had a canteen on board. It had taken no fresh milk or vegetables or anything like that on in Auckland. It was under charter. And the canteen had liver salts and cool cigarettes, mentholated ones. And the only other thing it had was salt water soap. They had showers up on a sort of temporary arrangement up on deck and the salt water soap was supposed to lather but it didn’t. And so we set off. Took us about fourteen days to get to San Francisco. We encountered intense fog as we went into the harbour and all we could hear was the sort of fog horns tooting off, coming from all directions. Eventually saw about three foot of the Golden Gate Bridge and we eventually docked. Got loaded on to tracks and went over the bridge. And we got some wonderful food from the Red Cross, American Red Cross ladies there. And these older ladies looked like really princesses when we saw them [laughs] I think we’d all fallen in love with them on sight but they came out with what they called cookies and whatnot and fresh milk and we, we got a lovely feed and we were soon on our way up to the coast through Oregon. A beautiful train trip with, supremely comfortable. Went up through, eventually got to Vancouver. And then we went across Canada and we had a, a sleeper type accommodation on that with dark stewards that turned your seats into bunks and that. Were extremely good and wonderful food. And eventually got as far as Edmonton where we got off the train and we stayed in what had been sort of a race course place and the grandstand as far as I can remember had been converted into accommodation. There were quite a lot of Australians there who were real hard cases and we were there about a month and then we were moved on to a place out of Winnipeg. What’s the name of it? It’s there in my logbook. In Canada. Number 7 AOS. Just shows you your memory lets you down. 7 AOS. Air Observer School. Portage la Prairie and, that’s right it was right in the middle of the Prairies but it was wonderful train trip over there. We were just late Autumn when we got there and the winter soon came and we began training in the SDRs, the little things that they set up. And they set up the whole trip and they had a clock that ran fast and you had to try and keep up with it and sort out wind changes and things that they put up in front of you. Eventually they let us into Anson aircraft. They were run by civilian pilots who flew from one town to the other. There was no black out and we usually seemed to fly along the border with the USA from one town to the other. Eventually we did a lot of star shots from the ground. Got to use sextants, and we went out on our first training on the navigating by the stars which we could identify. They were all these northern hemisphere stars. We came back over triangles. They called them cocked hats. They were huge. Just about put about half of Canada in most of them and your plane was supposed to be in the middle of that triangle. Well, the instructor, an Australian by the name of Flying Officer Sheridan, he was a very good fella. He said, ‘Well, that’s not too bad for your first effort but,’ he said, ‘I think I’ll have to try and do a bit better than that.’ And then there was a chap by the name of Glen Garry who’d been held back from an earlier course because of illness and he’d joined our course. And he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You idiots. You don’t need to stand out there with your shoulders and neck and head out of there in icy weather and these big gloves on trying to handle a sextant.’ He said, ‘You know exactly where you are. The pilots just fly from one border town to another,’ he said, ‘You can soon identify where you are. So,’ he said, ‘You just work backwards through your star tables. You know where you are on the ground. Now, you just find the right stars to get star tables and you’ll end up with a much smaller triangle.’ But he didn’t tell us to make them as small as, you know your thumbnail or anything like that but that’s about what we did. And Sheridan came around after a first effort at this. He gave a little grunt at each little disc he went by. Then he went up front and said, ‘I want to congratulate you fellas,’ he said. ‘I think this must be the best navigation course I’ve lectured to,’ he said. ‘When I went out,’ he said, ‘You could put the whole of Manitoba in the best cocked hat I ever got my sextant shots.’ And he said, ‘You’ve remarkably got very small cocked hats here and,’ he said, ‘The other interesting thing is they always seem to be over a little town.’ So we sort of all got our heads together and the next night we went out we decided well we’ll take them somewhere between towns. Some will do them about a quarter of a way around, some of them half way and some three quarters and we’ll make the cocked hats much bigger. I’m sure he knew what we were doing. I suspect he’d done the same thing himself because he did say when we finished, ‘You certainly know how to use your star table book.’ I eventually graduated as a navigator. We had one interesting trip one day. We were sent out to do a square search and we were quite a long way from Portage la Prairie and we lost an engine on the old Anson and the instructor decided that we would make for the nearest field he could find. I think it was Brandon. And you had to wind the undercart down on it and if you put the undercart down on an Anson with only one engine she didn’t seem to behave very well. So as my part of the journey was the homeward journey it was my turn to wind the undercart down. So he said, ‘I’ll tell you when to start underwinding. Winding it as we are approaching our landing place.’ He said, ‘Don’t start any sooner ‘til I give you the signal,’ and he said, ‘Wind like hell and get it down in time for me to touch down.’ And we did. And there we were, it was about tea time and the fella who was flying, I think it was Derek de [Journay] he had had infantile paralysis and he dragged both legs along behind him. And neither of us had caps on or anything and a smartly dressed Canadian officer came out and remanded us and he said to this fella, ‘Who do you think you are? Do you think you’re Billy Bishop? Scruffing along our base like you are,’ he said, ‘You’re a disgrace.’ And I said, ‘Wait on a minute,’ I said, ‘This young man’s suffered from poliomyelitis but,’ I said, ‘He’s been passed medically fit to, for aircrew.’ But anyway we were told that they would quickly fly us back to our own station. Leave our Anson where it was. And they wanted rid of two unruly rough looking fellas as quick as they could and we flew back to Portage la Prairie and left our old Anson behind us. That was just one of the little incidents at Portage la Prairie. Eventually we got some leave over Christmas, New Year and I had relatives in Toronto and Ottawa. And we arrived there, four of us on leave, and on New Year’s Eve and we weren’t allowed in until they answered the door and saw what colour our hair was. There was some tradition about the first footer into the house on New Year’s Day had to have dark hair I think it was. And anyway one of us passed the test and we were all allowed in and we were made very welcome. We actually, two of us, Claude Greenhowe and I, we crossed over into the United States to, we wanted to have a look at the waterfall, Niagara. And we found ourselves just out of Buffalo. We tried to cross over and we needed a permit. They gave us, I think told us to get it signed by some superior officer. So we took the permit back and one of us signed the two forms and put a rank beside it and took it back and that was ok. We were allowed over in to Buffalo and so we could get into the United States. I also had a pen pal who lived in Lancaster County, not all that far from New York and we got, eventually our final leave in Canada we all ended up in New York and we went to the Stage Door Canteen. Went to see Sonja Henie in an ice skating review at a wonderful stadium there and I thought I’d better go and, I’d been in touched by letter with this girl and she said, “You’re getting closer and closer as you move across Canada.” And I thought well I’d better go down so I said to my mates, ‘I’d better go down and say hello and I’ll be right back,’ because New York was so attractive. But anyway when I got down there and was met they’d never seen a bloke with a, “New Zealand,” on his arm before and I was absolutely overwhelmed by hospitality and she was a beautiful young girl too, and so I spent the rest of my leave down there. She lived at home with her, with her widowed mother and auntie and there was snow. Snow time. Snow falls predicted. And her mother said, ‘Maybe Nev would like to go to an ice hockey match. There’s one on at Hershey Park tomorrow night.’ So they asked me had I been to ice hockey. I said, ‘Yes.’ I’d been to one in Toronto and I had enjoyed it very much. So her mother said, ‘Well, take Neville over to Hershey tomorrow night Evelyn,’ which was her name and she had her own Plymouth car. Her father had died some years before when she was twelve years old. I’d been writing to her since she’d been eleven. That was the thing that schools did. Mainly for stamps and whatnot. And anyway her mother said, ‘You might get held up in the snow. You mightn’t get back tonight so put some blankets in the car. You can always sleep in the car.’ Well, they didn’t even know me. Only through the letters that I’d written. And I was a naïve, innocent young man anyway, brought up in a strict Presbyterian way. And we went off and had, saw a great match of ice hockey at Hershey. The snow wasn’t too bad and we drove straight home. So I’ve often thought we were, really we were innocent young people. And this young American girl was just as innocent as I was. And I remember I didn’t even give her a hug or a kiss when we finally said goodbye. But we kept writing to each other for quite some time after that. Eventually we left from Halifax on the Nieuw Amsterdam, a big Dutch ship and I’d got commissioned of course in Canada with a few others and had a cabin which was meant for two but had six in it so there was very little room in it. And it was very, very crowded with loads of people going back to the UK plus a lot of airmen. And, but we commissioned fellas did eat in the main dining room and we met an interesting fella there who was a passenger. An Englishman going back and this Nieuw Amsterdam changed course every four minutes. It did a zigzag course. It had no escort because it was quite a fast ship. And he’d suddenly pause with his fork and said, ‘It’s about to turn to starboard,’ and then four minutes later he’d say, ‘It’s about to turn to port.’ And this was the conversation right through the meal really. It sort of happened in four minute sections when the Nieuw Amsterdam changed course. We eventually docked at Gourock up in Scotland and went straight on a train down in Brighton where we, I was billeted in a small hotel with another small hotel nearby. One was the Albion. I can’t remember the name of the other. And we were there about a month. Given one or two duties to man a machine gun, sandbag things on the foreshore because there were a few sneak raids by German planes just coming in and shooting the place up now and then. And little by little one or two would be called away to go away to some training camp. And eventually it came my turn and Randall Hewitt, Derek de [Journay], the fella who had the polio and the chap, Hills from Marlborough, the four of us were posted over to Anglesey. To Mona. M O N A. And we did a flying course there on the sturdy old Ansons without the astrodome on them. We were flying across well away from the operational side of things. Our main flights were around the Irish Sea. We’d fly over to Ireland and then up to a point in Scotland and back again. We learned how to use the astrocompass mainly and we eventually were passed on from there to go and learn on how to work on a Wellington.
GT: Now, from there Neville then if I can, I’m just looking at your logbook. So just to, just to put the perspective of your, the time that you spent training and the first entry in your logbook is the 12th of October 1943 in an Anson in Canada.
NT: Yeah.
GT: So October ’43.
NT: It was Autumn. Yeah.
GT: And you flew and trained right through until February 1944. February 25th navigation course for air navigators and air bomb aimers. Number 7 AOS, Royal Canadian Air Force, Portage la Prairie. So you finished your training there February ’44. And your next entry goes through to Anglesey Number 80 AFU and that was during the month of May 1944. And then your next entries list you at RAF Westcott in July ’44. So please tell us about your time with RAF Westcott onwards.
NT: Well, we arrived at Westcott and we had to crew up as, with a crew of six. We were put in a huge hangar and they were a certain number of probably about a hundred or so navigators, pilots, wireless operators, bomb aimers and gunners and we were told to find ourselves a crew. Victor Hendry from Wellington, and I found each other. He was a bomb aimer. He was commissioned as I was. We looked around for a New Zealand pilot. There seemed to be only two there and the first one, a commissioned officer with the name of Hanna, he already had a navigator and the only other pilot we found a New Zealand flash on was Wyn Russell from Wellington and he was a flight sergeant. He said, ‘Would you fellas fly with me?’ And we rather liked the look of him. He was a bit older than us. We thought he’d probably be a sensible sort of pilot so we said we would. And then an Englishman from the north of England came up and said he was rear gunner. Did we have one? We said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Well, I’ve got a mate who’s a mid-upper gunner. I’ll go and find him.’ And so we had two gunners. And then a smallish fella turned up from Kent and said he was a wireless operator could he join us? And that’s how we became a crew of six.
GT: So, so that was why did you specifically ask for a New Zealand pilot? Or look for them.
NT: Well, I think we just felt we would be more at home with another Kiwi. And I think in the back of our minds was we hoped we would eventually end up with a New Zealand squadron. So —
GT: And which New Zealand squadrons were an option?
NT: Well, the only one was 75.
GT: My leading question. Ok. So, so our discussion today has been that 75 New Zealand squadron was known as the chop squadron by many because of the mass of losses. So you’d heard that there were several people that had deliberately tried not to have a Kiwi pilot because they hadn’t wanted to go to 75. Can you remember anything of that?
NT: I I heard, heard a bit about it but we didn’t sort of take much heed of it and thought that was probably a sort of a fairy tale. It didn’t put us off anyway. But the commanding officer at Westcott wasn’t very happy about us having a sergeant, a flight sergeant as our pilot. He was an Englishman and he wasn’t used to that sort of thing and he said, ‘I think you’d better find someone of the same rank or higher rank.’ But we said, ‘No. No. We want to stick together.’ And I seem to remember him muttering something like, ‘You’re a stubborn lot you colonials. Oh well. I suppose it will work out. But you remember the pilot’s always going to be the boss of the outfit.’
GT: So you were a pilot officer at the time.
NT: Yes. I was a pilot officer then.
GT: And the rest of your crew? What ranks were they?
NT: Sergeants. Apart the pilot who was a flight sergeant. And of course the bomb aimer was a pilot officer. Shortly to become a flying officer.
GT: So they would prefer to have all the pilots to have been officers even at that time.
NT: No. They were quite happy with sergeant pilots, and flight sergeant pilots. But they weren’t happy with two commissioned fellas having to submit to someone of lower rank.
GT: But the ultimate was skippers were always the man in charge. No matter what rank on the aircraft.
NT: Yeah.
GT: It didn’t matter. Right.
NT: Yeah. Absolutely. We were prepared to accept that but the English didn’t think that was the proper way for things to be. But that’s how we went anyway.
GT: So, you had your crew of six.
NT: Yeah.
GT: You still had to find a flight engineer. Was that right?
NT: That didn’t happen until we got posted on from Westcott. Oakley to Wratting Common and went on to Stirlings and had to have a seventh man. A flight engineer.
GT: So, so we’ll just go back to finish Westcott please Neville. What did you fly at Westcott and how long did you spend there?
NT: We weren’t there very long. I’d have to get you to look at my logbook there. We flew mainly from Oakley. The satellite station from Westcott.
GT: All Wellingtons.
NT: We did one.
GT: Twelve hours. Eighteen hours.
NT: One trip Windowing in August. We flew over to Caen and Bayeaux and when the German night fighters came up we high tailed it back to, to England. They were sort of little feint attacks while the main Bomber Command crossed the coast at some further point. The effort was partly to block out the radar and partly to try to draw up the German night fighters.
GT: You have one entry here on the 18th of August. Diversion crew Bayeaux. Night bombing. Three hours forty. So —
NT: Oh yeah.
GT: So effectively you went on an op that wasn’t an op.
NT: That’s right.
GT: [unclear] those on ops.
NT: Yeah. Well, a lot of OTU people went on the thousand bomber raid actually. Bomber Harris was determined to try and get a thousand bombers so he had to resort to taking a lot of crews from OTUs. So you actually did some early flights from an OTU.
GT: But they never credited you even with a third.
NT: No.
GT: For that particular trip.
NT: No. No.
GT: All right. So your logbook says 11 OTU Westcott July 27th to August 21st. And then you moved to 1651 Conversion Unit at Wratting Common. And what did you work on there?
NT: Stirlings. Mainly the pilot getting used to four engines and us getting used to having a flight engineer. From memory he was just allotted to us. We didn’t choose him. Turned out to be a good fella and a good flight engineer and fitted in well. And we did a lot of circuits and bumps there. And one the thing about landing in a Stirling was the, you had to, every time you landed someone had to go out and chalk the wheel to show the creep from the valve. And if it got to a certain stage too far you had to stop flying circuits and bumps for that period ‘til they corrected things again. We managed to ground loop a Stirling early on and it was rather scary. Turning around a great big circle and managing to avoid hitting anything. But —
GT: Wow. Well, you, you 1651 arrived October 30 and finished 29 December 1944.
NT: Yes. And then we —
GT: And that was a bunch of hours. Daylight hours are twenty three forty and night time hours seventeen and ten. And then you moved to?
NT: Woolfox Lodge in the tiny county of Rutland as it was. A few miles from Stamford. And Vic and I and the pilot had each in the meantime bought a little car each. He had a little baby Austin. We had a little Austin too. A little two seater. It turned out to be a disaster. It kept running down the batteries and needed rewiring. But eventually [unclear] bought it off us and he got it fixed up and he drove it around Mepal eventually in it quite a bit. I can’t remember what happened with Russell’s little Austin but by the time we got to the squadron we didn’t have a car anyway. It was a job getting petrol anyway. So —
GT: Best to have a bicycle right.
NT: Yeah. Went back to bicycles [laughs]
GT: So did you take your bicycle when you moved next to 75 squadron?
NT: No. No. You just picked up another bicycle. There just seemed to be an abundance.
GT: Did you have to sign a chit for one?
NT: I don’t remember ever signing for one.
GT: Fabulous. Ok. Well, your logbook says that you arrived on the 31st of December.
NT: Late on the 31st.
GT: 1944.
NT: And I had been invited to the Duke of Rutland’s New Year’s Eve Ball by a little girl I’d met in Stamford. Her father was a doctor and he was the lieutenant to the Duke of Rutland. His wife was, according to one of the English magazines considered the most beautiful woman in Britain and the [unclear] were sort of a posh family and I didn’t quite fit in but they seemed to want me to take their daughter out and about. And I remember going to, with her mother and herself to watch her young brother playing rugby one day I had some leave. A Saturday. And I’d had four lovely Nestles chocolate bars sent from home by my mum and I remember taking a couple of them to the rugby match intending them to be eaten at the rugby match and intending to eat a fair bit of it myself. So I duly handed them over and her mother thanked me gratefully for these chocolates and put them in her handbag and they went home. So I didn’t get my chocolate that day. But she was a lovely girl. She had an Australian boyfriend too and just another girl like the American. She was nothing forward about her at that but a very lovely girl and I was rather sad. I was on a train going down to 75 Squadron when I could have been at the Duke of Rutland’s Ball. Although I wasn’t much of a dancer so it was probably just as well I wasn’t at it.
GT: She liked the ANZACs [laughs] Very good. So your logbook then shows your first operation on 75 was January the 5th but you you had a bit of an introduction to 75 which, which was rather sad.
NT: That was our second trip but our first night trip. Yes.
GT: But when you arrived though.
NT: Oh yes.
GT: Yes.
NT: Yes. Wing Commander Newton who had done a tour much earlier on 75 had just replaced Wing Commander Leslie about a week before we arrived. And they were having a big party on the night of our arrival, a New Year’s Eve party and apparently he was accused of shooting a line from his earlier days at Mepal and all we were told by the orderly officer was that we would meet up Wing Commander Newton in a couple of days time. Unfortunately, he flew off with a new crew, I think it was on the 1st of January and they just didn’t return. We later learned they’d been shot down and they were [pause] the navigator was said to have been a long way off track and they were all killed. So we lost our wing commander, yes. Before we’d met him and before we’d flown at 75.
GT: His replacement was?
NT: Well, took a wee while to get a replacement. The officer in charge of B Flight, I think his name was Rogers, he was acting wing commander. We did a day and our pilot of course did a second pilot, a second dickie course. A night trip with another crew so he’d been on an op before any of the rest of us. Our first op was a daylight. I think it was probably Saarbücken was it? I remember the flak was rather heavy.
GT: January the 5th Flight Sergeant Russell at that time. War ops — Ludwigshaven.
NT: Ludwigshaven. Yeah. It was said to be very heavy flak. We thought it was anyway. I do remember when we came back Jim Freestone caught up with me when we were, you know getting out of all our gear and whatnot and he said, ‘What did you think of that?’ I said, ‘I think we’re in a job with no future, Jim.’ And he said, ‘I think you’re right.’
GT: That’s a very good impression after your first flight wasn’t it? Wow. So now you were mentioning as to one of your earlier flights that you had problems and you had to jettison. Can you explain about that flight?
NT: Yes. Well, our next flight was, what date was it? It was. The target was Neuss, which was an inlet port on the Rhine.
GT: January the 6th.
NT: That was said to be probably an easy, easy trip but there was icing about and we, all the squadrons were having to climb to height, mainly over Reading. And we were orbiting around there getting up to twelve thousand or fourteen thousand feet and a pretty thick concentration, just a few squadrons there and I just said to the pilot, getting ready to set course and suddenly the plane lurched away to port and all my navigation stuff shot to the floor. And when I bent down to pick it up I found flames leaping up from the bottom of the [unclear] wall of communication gear between me and the wireless operator, and I shouted out, ‘We’re on fire.’ And immediately of course went to get an extinguisher from the wall behind me. That took me off intercom. As far as I remember the pilot switched off the oxygen and took the plane down a bit and the flight engineer joined me. He got another extinguisher. He was off intercom too and there was smoke everywhere. All I remember is that we were spraying all around the wireless operator who was sitting there frozen white, unable to move, just as though he was a dead man. And we eventually got the fire out and got back on the intercom and just in time because the pilot had just told them to get ready to bale out and the bomb aimer had already lifted the front hatch out. Another moment they would have been gone. The outfit was full of smoke and with no connection with the engineer and myself and the radio operator not responding he thought the three of us must have succumbed. By the time I got this sorted out all the flames had disappeared and we’d not long come down from Lancaster Finishing School up there at Woolfox Lodge and we were filled up with information from there. What you did and what you didn’t do on the squadron. And one of the things was if you lost all your communication gear you shouldn’t proceed with your operation because you might muck it up because of some directions being sent out and you didn’t pick them up, and I’d lost my Gee connection as well. And so the pilot said, ‘Well, we’re not allowed, as a new crew we’re not allowed to land back at base with the bombs on board. So find me the jettison area, Nev.’ And I did that by DR, direct, [pause] DR. Using winds anyway. It took quite a wee while to get to the area in the North Sea where we jettisoned these bombs which were an the area free from shipping. And we eventually found our way back to base by dead reckoning which was what DR was. Using Met information that we’d been given we found our base and got permission to join the circuit and land and the undercarriage wouldn’t come down. So they told us to orbit around for a while they saw if they could direct us how. There was some way, some manual operation from memory that you could use and they ended up having to get the engineer officer out and he was in bed and he wasn’t very happy. And eventually he gave our flight engineer some instructions and the undercart did come down. We came in and landed to find that we were being followed by a fire engine and an ambulance and a little Humber car. And as we eventually got out of the Lancaster all these various ones turned out and of course our Acting Wing Commander Rogers was there in the little Humber car and our rear gunner, a bit of a wag from the north of England got out and said, ‘Well, that’s a jolly good way to do ops. Just fly out over the sea and jettison your bombs and come back again.’ It wasn’t very well received and we were told, ‘You be in my office at eight in the morning and I’ll deal with you then.’ So we turned up at eight in the morning and found two other crews had turned up as well. The whole three crews were in trouble. One had come back because the hydraulics had failed and they couldn’t operate their turrets. I forget what the trouble was with the third one. Something to do with the engines. So they had two early returns on his first night as acting wing commander and they hadn’t had any early returns for a wee while and he wasn’t very happy. So he said, ‘The first city trip that comes up you three crews will be top of the Battle Order.’ That very night we went in and saw a Battle Order up with just eight crews on it. We were just making up the numbers for other squadrons and sure enough ours was the first one on the list and the other two were there and the other five crews were sort of miscreants in lesser ways too. So we set off for Munich. The Met officer said, ‘I don’t think you can rely on anything I give you tonight. All we know is that there are three fronts coming in at varying time. You’ll meet them going and coming back and I don’t think you’ll find my predictions would be much use to you. I can’t tell you just where you’ll meet them.’ So anyway we set off and by the time we reached the French coast the Gee had packed up and we didn’t have a clue how to get it going again. And I reported to the pilot that I’d lost my Gee and he said, ‘Well, we’ll just have to press on with DR,’ he said, ‘We certainly can’t go back to base.’ [laughs] So we pressed on and I flew all the way there by dead reckoning and there was cloud everywhere up quite high. Eighteen thousand feet and still in cloud and eventually I said to the pilot, ‘Target coming up in a few minutes,’ and a while later he said, ‘You’d better come and have a look around Nev.’ He said, ‘I don’t think we’re anywhere near a target.’ There was supposed to be some marking done by Pathfinders and we couldn’t see a thing. The rear gunner said, ‘I think I see a glow away over to starboard there.’ So I said, ‘Well, we may as well go over there.’ So we flew in that direction but it had disappeared so we decided to let our bombs go anyway and of course they automatically take a photo and the blooming thing was developed the next day and it showed that we’d bombed an area which had bush around a bit of water and no one could work out quite what it was except that it looked like the edge of a lake. But they were trying to work out just exactly where it was. Took some days on it. I think it was Air Ministry that finally plotted out what it was. We’d apparently flown about forty miles past Munich and if we’d just gone a little further we’d have taken out a lakeside retreat for the SS. People used to go for rest periods. But we flew all the way back still on dead reckoning. I hadn’t long set course for home and we got the call to, ‘Starboard go, skip.’ And we were attacked by two night fighters. The rear gunner had reported seeing a light and the skipper said, ‘Keep an eye on it,’ and this one was following us but then the mid-upper gunner saw this other plane coming in firing at us from our starboard side. So, anyway we flung ourselves on this corkscrew. The gunners reckoned the one attacking from the starboard side and he withdrew but the other one tried to follow us but we, he must have given it up because we didn’t hear any more fire from him. And we stayed in that cloud for quite some time before we dared come out of it. I was getting a bit jittery because I wasn’t, didn’t really have any idea just where we were. So I gave the pilot a course for 275 to fly to and we shared the coffee flasks around, relaxed a bit and then I had a look at my repeater for the compass course and find it’s showing 075 instead of 275. So I quickly got the skipper to correct things. I said, ‘We’re going to take us back to the Ruhr or somewhere like that,’ so I said, ‘Get back to 275. We’ll head in the general direction of the UK.’ And eventually as night began to give way to an early dawn I said to the bomber, ‘Now, I’m going to rely on you to tell me what’s coming up.’ And he eventually said, ‘There’s a river coming up,’ and I said, ‘Well, we should find another river. I think that’s where we are within so many minutes.’ And sure enough another river came up and we found we were way down the south of France. And so we kept on this heading of 275 and eventually found the English coast, fired off the colours of the day. Found the Wash and then there was a bit of a canal that down towards Mepal and we found my way home there. And of course the Cathedral was a great sighting point too and landed and, but they were but we didn’t actually land at Mepal. We were told to divert to Waterbeach because one of the eight planes had run off the runway with its bomb load on and had blocked the runway and they weren’t able to shift it before we’d got back. So we, the seven crews that had taken off for Munich all went to Waterbeach and we ended up in a couple of trucks and were taken back to Mepal, and we realised that the attack had been pretty hopeless. Nobody was enthusiastic about what had happened at all and we didn’t feel too bad. Nobody seemed to have found Munich that night and we were just unlucky enough to find a wee hole through the cloud that showed this bit of lake and bush. But in a way it served us well because we felt that we were not very highly thought of for that early return. Anyway, the nav officer congratulated us on a pretty good effort on DR navigation and doing what we had done and from then on we were, we thought we were ok as a crew.
GT: Was that the only time you were attacked by aircraft?
NT: Yes. It was actually. Mainly flak was our biggest problem.
GT: And for any of the two gunners and then, did you ever have the aircraft fire the front guns?
NT: No. Never.
GT: No. Ok. Did you have any German aircraft come up underneath you to try and fire?
NT: No. We managed to miss out on that fortunately. We were briefed about these Scarecrows that the Germans were sending up. Great pyrotechnic displays and they were to knock our morale and make us think they were part of the aircraft exploding. As it turned out they were Lancasters just blowing up in flames. Shot down by these schrage musik upper firing guns. They used to come in underneath you where we had no vision and fire into the petrol tanks in the wing and dive away to get out of the way of the resulting explosion. But we were told they were simply German fireworks made to appear like aircraft exploding. It wasn’t until very close to the end of the war that we actually found out what they really were but we managed to escape those.
GT: Did you know of any aircraft that had any eventual belly guns on 75 squadron?
NT: Yeah. Well, we were given an old aircraft one time when ours was in for some maintenance and we had an extra man on board. And this aircraft was equipped with as far as I can remember a .5 gun that fired underneath. And as far as I can remember his name was Yates. Must look through those Battle Orders and see if you can find the name of Yates there. And we only flew the once. I think it was on a daylight actually and that’s all I can tell you. There was one Lanc that we knew.
GT: So you were never briefed. You were never briefed to say you were going to have an eighth man on board.
NT: No. No.
GT: Yeah. Well, I’ve met an under gunner and he said only three aircraft. And he was assigned. Went away, trained for a week, came back and they flew for a while towards the end of the war. So —
NT: Well, we picked one of those three obviously.
GT: Yeah. Yeah. Really awesome there. I can see from your logbook you did a mixture of days and nights.
NT: Yes.
GT: War operations. Which did you prefer?
NT: Well, I preferred the daylights actually. I think the whole crew preferred daylights.
GT: You were saying that as a navigator though your job was rather easier during the day.
NT: Well it was. In a way you wondered why you needed a navigator because you could, there were several planes you could follow. But on the other hand you could get lost or lose an engine, [unclear] it kept us up to speed anyway. We were expected to do the same sort of navigation on a daylight as you would on a night trip and take your position at the same frequencies and change courses and that lot. It seemed to work out that everything you did everybody else was doing exactly the same thing. So in a way it was just keeping on our training for night trips I guess.
GT: But, but all aircraft didn’t, were not equipped with the same equipment like Oboe and Gee.
NT: No.
GT: And H2S. So you found that a little bit of a problem?
NT: Yes. Well, quite a few aircraft when we joined 75 didn’t have H2S. Probably the majority did, but our plane didn’t get H2S until probably, probably about March or something.
GT: March 1945. And H2S, and yet every other squadron pretty much had an aircraft with H2S.
NT: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Boy, boy. Ok. And what other equipment were you lacking on our Lancasters?
NT: Well, I took a funeral for a friend a while back and he flew with an English squadron. They had .5 guns and a new turret back in 1944 and he found it hard to believe we were still firing 303s with these old turrets.
GT: 75 Squadron didn’t change from Stirlings in to Lancasters until mid-‘44 so —
NT: Yeah. That was awfully late, wasn’t it?
GT: Very late compared to other operational squadrons. Yeah. Yeah. I understand the New Zealand person from London intervened.
NT: The High Commissioner.
GT: High Commissioner.
NT: Jordon.
GT: Jordon. Yeah. So from that equipment then and of course entering into doing Operation Manna food drops. So, so please tell us about your experience with those.
NT: I probably should mention that I was one of those fellas accused of being a terrorist for navigating a Lancaster to Dresden on the 2nd raid of the night.
GT: Now, that particular, if we can just avoid the Operation Manna for a moment but your raid on, what particular night was that?
NT: That’s February. About the 13th of February I think.
GT: Dresden definitely is the 13th of February 1945, and you did nine hours ten as a night operation for that. Four thousand pound Cookie and incendiaries. And the target was Dresden.
NT: Yes.
GT: And, and its well documented that Dresden was a huge question mark as to ethics and to why and how. So could you talk about what your feelings were for that raid? Personally being on it and then all the controversy afterwards perhaps.
NT: Well, at briefing we were told we were assisting the Russians who had requested the bombing of Dresden because their lines of provisions had got too long and their troops were advancing fast to the Eastern Front and they couldn’t get the supplies up to them and Dresden was getting fresh troops brought in by frequent trains running in there. They withdrew a lot of divisions from Italy and from Norway and they were taking them through to Dresden. That was the drop off point and a lot of armaments and, and men going up and being dropped off at Dresden to go up to try and quell the Russian advance.
GT: So the main push was because of the German troops going in. Not civilians.
NT: No.
GT: This was what you were told.
NT: That’s what we were told and in subsequent reading I’ve discovered that Dresden was not full of refugees. They found them just too much trouble. They shoved them straight on the trains returning from Dresden to get them away from the area. And the trains that brought troops up took refugees back out. So where the truth lies is hard to say but I was greatly helped eventually by reading Frederick Taylor’s book just simply called, “Dresden.” And that’s written with, after he managed to get hold of the German archives from the Russians after the breakdown of the Russian states and they make, his book makes very interesting reading and did me a lot of good to read it. Because I had written, I had read those earlier books about the destruction of Dresden and the devils inferno and I was made to feel like an absolute terrorist. And it stayed with me for years actually and all the publicity we got. The House of Lords didn’t help us much in allowing, and I know I’m still a licenced Anglican priest I look back and think some of those Anglican bishops in the House of Lords didn’t really quite understand what war is all about and they created a bit of havoc there. And Winston Churchill seemed to just want to back off and leave Sir Arthur Harris to take the blame. Now, all he was doing was carrying out orders from War Command Headquarters and that Yalta Conference with Roosevelt and Stalin was held over that same period of time as we attacked Dresden. And I think it’s rather tragic that Sir Arthur Harris has been left with a tarnished record over Dresden and in many ways Dresden suffered as much as quite a lot of the other cities that were bombed in Germany and had quite a larger percentage of losses. And I’d recommend that book, “Dresden,” by Frederick Taylor to anybody to read who has troubles over Dresden.
GT: So you were on the second raid of that night.
NT: That’s right.
GT: And did you notice any difference? Was there fires burning already? Or —
NT: Yeah well, I think we’d be about a hundred and fifty miles away from Dresden and the pilot said to me, ‘I don’t think you’re going to need to do much navigation, Nev. Come up here and have a look.’ And you could see fire from a long, long way back. Well over a hundred miles. And according to the book, “Dresden”’ quite a few crews deliberately didn’t drop their bombs in to the flames. We did. But the book also says that the Jewish slave population that worked in Dresden had to walk in several miles every day to go to work and they, they saw it all from a safe distance and they rejoiced to see it happening. And it also turns out there were about a hundred and fifty war production factories in Dresden. They were told there were no, nothing like that. You know the people that grumbled about what we did to Dresden. And it had been a city of clockmakers and they were famous for this. Dresden China wasn’t made in Dresden. It was made further out in another town but sold under the name of Dresden and these clockmaking factories became the main source of the instruments, that tanks and naval ships and aircraft used. Instrument makers. So it really was quite a war target really. But it had never been one before because it was so far out of range. It was only after we advanced into Europe after D-Day that we could get. Take on those further targets really.
GT: But you were still flying operations from England though so it didn’t —
NT: Pardon?
GT: You were still fling operations from England.
NT: Yeah.
GT: In the same Lancasters that were dropping —
NT: Yeah.
GT: Earlier.
NT: The next night we went to Chemnitz. It turned out it wasn’t a very successful raid. Mainly through weather and bad marking. And we were told we had to do three in a row but the weather broke. Bad weather came. The upper and the House of Lords the third attack never took place. I’ve heard since that the third one was to be Potsdam and the thought was that Dresden, Chemnitz and Potsdam taken out in three nights immediately there was the possibility of the war finishing at that stage in early February. But as it turned out it didn’t.
GT: Right. So, you mentioned also the Americans did a raid on Dresden at the same time.
NT: Well, I learned from this book that it was agreed that the Americans would be the first to attack Dresden. They were to attack it in the morning and of course they prepared very early in the morning, from about 4 o’clock when they were going on a long inland raid. And the weather was terrible so they cancelled it so the RAF were called to make the first attack which was what half past tennish or something and ours was more like after midnight. So the American attack took place next morning and the book tells us that the weather was bad. There was a big front of weather and there were two groups of American bombers took off to bomb Dresden unaware that just how much damage had already been done. And one group contacted the other and said, ‘We’re going to fly to the north of this front and the other one said, we’ll get around south and we’ll end up over Dresden.’ Apparently the, one of the groups flew out of clouds, saw a big city on a river, dropped their bombs and it turned out to be Prague not Dresden. That’s according to the book called, “Dresden.” And I’ve never seen it denied but I don’t think they did a hell of lot of damage to Prague all the same.
GT: Now, you also, one target. Was it Wesel?
NT: Yes. We attacked Wesel twice and we attacked it late in the afternoon of the eve of Montgomery crossing the Rhine there. My understanding is that a force of eighty of which 75 were the leading group with a group of eight. GH equipped, two GH equipped planes of which I was one. I’d been trained in GH. This was accurate bombing through cloud when you couldn’t see the target, and the aircraft sent out signals which were received back to England. Sort of the reverse of Oboe and very accurate. And the navigator actually did the lead in, you know, ‘Left. Left. Steady. Hold it, skipper,’ and what not and actually pressed the button that released the bombs. And we, we led a group of three. That was the normal way. One GH leader, two, one on each side and one coming up from the back in a little diamond and according to that first history book of 75 Squadron we were at the last attack on Wesel and got congratulations from Montgomery for the accuracy of our bombing. But then I’ve read another book since that said at midnight there was a Pathfinder force of seventy nine planes that bombed Wesel. And I do know that our group was one of eighty and 75 had eight planes leading it and it was a very successful raid so whether that other story about it a midnight attack on Wesel is right or not, I don’t know.
GT: Ok. So if we move to the Manna ops. Once you’d completed war ops and you were detailed to drop food parcels how did that prepare for you guys and what were told? Were you told to remove guns? What was the [unclear]
NT: No. We weren’t told to remove guns but we were told in no way to start firing. We didn’t go on the first day. I think the 29th was the first day I went. The first drop was the 28th from memory.
GT: 30th there was Rotterdam.
NT: Yes.
GT: The 7th of May was the Hague.
NT: Yes. So, yes we went to Rotterdam I remember them loading the food and they had a lot of men from the base down below. Some of them on steps and pushing food up into the bomb bays which just were slightly open and they were pushing food up in there. And we just flew over, went in very low, told to be no higher than five hundred feet but most went in much lower than that. We were told to be careful not to be the first to fire a gun. We didn’t know whether the Germans would fire on us or not. We had seen plenty of anti-aircraft guns around and some of them deliberately being sort of aimed at you but apparently a local German commander was a compassionate man and he’d given orders in no way were these food planes to be fired on. One or two planes, oh I don’t know how many but some did report being fired on but not over the drop zones. They were fired on I think by ordinary soldiers away from the area where the food drops were. They just saw these planes flying low and took pot shots at them. My friend Bill Hall tells me they came back with one of the turrets on fire and the rear gunner a bit the worse for wear but it didn’t happen to us. We didn’t fire anything. Didn’t remove our guns. We were ready to fire back if they fired at us but they didn’t. And they were, some days later we did get an assurance from German High Command that we wouldn’t be fired on provided we flew in these narrow —
GT: Flying corridors. Yeah.
NT: Yeah. And specified drop zones. And it all went pretty well according to plan. Incidentally, I just met a Dutchman. We were both in hospital recently getting some radiotherapy treatment for skin cancers and he, I happened to say to him, ‘Do you mind me asking where your home town really was.’ I knew he wasn’t a Kiwi. He said, ‘Yes. I’m from the Netherlands.’ And I said, ‘I flew over there a few times.’ ‘Oh, did you? What did you fly?’ ‘Lancasters.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We knew when it was Lancasters. We could tell the different engine sound to those other four engine ones.’ I think he was referring to Stirlings. He said, ‘We used to hear them going over and we were pleased to hear them. I was just a young boy but,’ he said, ‘I remember I hadn’t seen bread for long enough and,’ he said, ‘Mother got some flour and some other stuff and she made some bread.’ And he said, ‘It was just wonderful.’ And he said, ‘I want to give you a gift.’ I said, ‘I don’t want any gifts.’ ‘Oh, no. No.’ he said, ‘I can’t forget what you fellas did for us.’ He said, ‘I want to give you a gift but,’ he said, ‘I don’t know if you really want it or not.’ I said, ‘You’ll have to tell me what it is.’ I said, ‘I don’t want any gifts but if you insist I have one and you don’t know whether I’d like it or not you’d better tell me what it is.’ So he said, ‘Well, I’ve got a lot of half [unclear] timber at home from the old Burnside freezing works and,’ he said, ‘I like doing a bit of woodwork,’ and he said, ‘I make little Dutch milking stools,’ he said, ‘Would you like one?’ I said, ‘Well, yes. That would be rather wonderful.’ I said, ‘I milked cows by hand. We didn’t get the machines until shortly before I went into the Air Force,’ and I said, ‘Well, our family had to do the hand milking,’ I said, ‘So I had a little stool to do my four cows that I milked night and morning.’ And so I said, ‘I know what a milking stool is like.’ He said, ‘Now, I can make a round one, a square one or an oblong one.’ I said, ‘Oh, well, how about a round one?’ He said, ‘Right.’ A few days later he phoned me up and said, ‘I’ve made you a stool,’ he said ‘I hope you like it,’ he said, ‘It’s not round, it’s not square, it’s not oblong.’ He said, ‘I’ve decided on a different shape.’ So he said, ‘When can I bring it and deliver it?’ So we made a date and he brought it around and I’ve just shown it to you over there. It’s quite a delightful little thing with, what has it got? Six sides to it and joined and beautifully made and also he and his son made a doorstop out of this [unclear] timber too. This is a thank you for what we did for dropping food so long ago. I had met other Dutchmen who knew about it and a Dutch woman years ago but this, I was the first fella that had dropped food that this man had met me and he, he was so emotional.
GT: It was in a Lancaster, wasn’t it?
NT: And thankful.
GT: Yeah. Yeah, I too have met many and they are very thankful of what you did for them then, for that. Phenomenal. And of course there was Chowhound as well as Manna.
NT: Yeah.
GT: So there were numerous RAF Squadrons as well as Americans as well.
NT: That’s right.
GT: B17s as well. So that’s fabulous. So besides the Manna trips your Manna trip shows that you obviously worked at Juvencourt repatriation flights.
NT: Yes.
GT: Exodus.
NT: Before that we actually did a trip to Brussels. We took some Dutch civilians who had been sort of in civic government. Had taken refuge in England during the war. And they were being taken back to Brussels to try and get some form of you know, local government going again. So we had wives and some babies, we had a pram and a perambulator in the bomb bay and landed in Brussels on a very large airstrip that the Germans had been operating from for years. And these Belgians were absolutely overwhelmed at getting home again, and it was rather lovely seeing prams and perambulators and suitcases now in the bomb bay and these civilians and young children including babies on board. But there was a slight mishap on that trip. It was a beautiful day and the bomb aimer and I sort of changed occupations and we found Brussels fine, got the call sign right and got permission to land. The pilot said, ‘Oh yes. I can see,’ and we put down on a very short air, air strip and had to brake heavily to avoid running into a blooming fence at the end of it and a fella came out and looked at us in amazement and said, What the hell are you doing here? He said we’ve never had a four engine plane down here before.’ And we’d been talking to the right place but landed at the wrong one [laughs] Failed to identify it. And we didn’t tell the Dutch we’d made a hash of things. They just thought this was part of what we had to do. And —
GT: That was the Belgian.
NT: Yeah. The Belgian. That’s right.
GT: Yeah.
NT: And the trick was to take off again from it. So they got a tractor out and helped tow us right to the very end of this little short runway, and of course you didn’t have much of a load on it at all. It took off alright and we found this other place on the other side of Brussels which is quite a huge city actually, and we landed there and these people embraced us and thanked us and we didn’t tell them we’d given them an extra little landing and take-off. It didn’t seem to upset them anyway. They were so glad to be home. We thought we’d stay the night in Brussels and, but we had trouble with our plane and I think it was magneto trouble and our wing commander decided it wasn’t a good idea to leave this crew in Brussels overnight just after VE Day and he sent a plane out to pick us up and leave our plane there to be attended to and eventually another crew was flown out to bring it home again from my memory. But we did go and have a beer at a sort of a tavern place. We traded some cigarettes for some rather watery beer and that’s all we knew about Brussels.
GT: Fabulous.
NT: These people had been refugees to England.
GT: Ok.
NT: They got away before the German occupation. Now we’d taken them home. But it was quite wonderful to bring the prisoners of war home from Juvencourt. On our first trip there from, if my memory is right and I’m pretty sure it is we also took some French civilians over to Juvencourt and brought prisoners of war returning home back. Some were in pretty pitiful conditions. They’d been force marched for many, many miles over a long period of time. Footwear worn out. A lot had died on the way and a lot were in pretty poor condition. We, I think we put twenty four on board and brought them back to Ford. And I remember the first thing they did was come down and kiss the ground and then they marched them off to the delousing tents. But they were extremely grateful to, to us for bringing them back.
GT: Your logbook describes further that you completed your last flying on the 29th of June 1945, and if I can just finish your little story here of your wartime operations stuff off the summary and you’ve got completed in your logbook that you, with your crew day ops war fifteen, night ops war seven. Abortive op, the one you had to jettison times one. Manna Operation flying times two. Exodus four. And Baedekers two. Night operational hours fifty two hours and day operational hours one hundred and ten. And you’ve also here a total weight of bombs dropped twenty two four one thousand three hundred and eighty four bombs. Pounds. Two four one thousand three hundred and eighty four pounds. So your crew phenomenally did a wonderful job that you were called upon to do and one last couple of mentions there of your Manna ops you’ve listed the 30th of April three thousand six hundred pounds of food. And the trip you did to the Hague on the 7th of May ’45 six thousand two hundred and seventy pounds of food.
NT: Yeah. We’d learned how to load a bit more in.
GT: Yeah.
NT: As time went on.
GT: Yeah. That was fascinating. So, so during that earlier time of 1945 there, 75 New Zealand Squadron RAF, I’ve got to mention it wasn’t a Royal New Zealand Air Force Squadron.
NT: That’s right.
GT: It was an RAF squadron with a whole bunch of Kiwis. But during that time and the loss of Wing Commander Newton the replacement CO was Wing Commander Cyril Baigent.
NT: That’s right.
GT: How did you get on with him and how did you find him as a CO?
NT: Oh, very, very good. Yeah. He was very young. Very pleasant. Quite boyish features but a real leader. My pilot and him didn’t get along very well. That was through an unfortunate incident, it wasn’t anything to do with the wing commander but my pilot’s best friend Mel Thorpe on a daylight trip which we were on they got home just minutes ahead of us and were in the circuit waiting to land and they lost an engine. And apparently the last order picked up given was to feather the, feather the engine and anyway they, they crashed and they were all killed. And we don’t really know what happened. It was very close to Mepal. They’d done the trip and there they were back over the Mepal really in the circuit and it crashed and burned. Our engineer thinks that their engineer feathered another engine and they had two dud engines then on one side and just lost control. Whether that’s true or not I don’t know but our pilot, we, we were told to go and fly around and see what was happening. They knew it had crashed and knew it was burning. Our pilot was so upset when we landed he personally sort of accused our wing commander of pushing this fella too hard which probably was quite untrue but it was an emotional outburst and our pilot didn’t like Wing Commander Baigent very much. And probably Wing Commander Baigent didn’t like him very much. But actually as a crew we found him a very good wing commander.
GT: Well, he finished with 75 New Zealand Squadron and then went on up to Spilsby after the war had completely finished and they started training for Tiger Force. Now, were you asked to stay on for Tiger Force?
NT: No. The wing commander had a look at our record and said, ‘You’ve done over twenty. There’s a huge influx of fellas here that have hardly had hardly any flying operational time at all. We’re going to have stacks of men to train for Tiger Force. Consider yourselves as tour expired although you haven’t officially done your thirty ops.’
GT: So you weren’t given an option.
NT: Not really.
GT: Ok. So you were allowed to go.
NT: I guess we could have overridden and said, ‘No. We want to go to Tiger Force,’ but we decided we were happy to let it go.
GT: What were you told about what Tiger Force was about?
NT: Well, we weren’t really told anything as our crew. Possibly those who were going to Spilsby were. I don’t know. All we knew was that we were supposed to be going out to help in the war in the east with Japan. That’s about all I knew about it.
GT: And you were told it was going to be Lancasters or Lincolns. They didn’t mention anything to you?
NT: Yeah. I think we were told it would be Lincolns.
GT: Because by, by the end of in this case VJ Day 75 New Zealand Squadron at Spilsby only received three Lincolns so they certainly took a while to dial up. So that’s when they kind of finished. So when you finished with 75 New Zealand Squadron it was at Mepal. Did, what were the pubs that you guys used to, used to frequent? Can you remember which ones around the Mepal area? Or —
NT: I’ve got a vague, I think it was called the Chequers down in Sutton.
GT: Yeah. They’ve, they’ve got a lot of photographs around the wall of the, of the squadron [unclear] but Ely on the other side. There were several around that area.
NT: Yes. There were. Chequers seemed to be the favoured one.
GT: Yeah. What flight did you fly on 75 Squadron?
NT: A flight. And our flight commander was Squadron Leader Jack Wright who came to a rather tragic end later on.
GT: Yes. I visited Jack Wright’s grave in Lower Hutt, New Zealand. Yes. It was very unfortunate.
NT: We like him as a flight commander but he did look to have done too much. His eyes were sort of, something strange about his eyes. He just looked over, over worked I think. But he was a hell of a nice fella and a very good flight commander and that’s —
GT: Yeah. I think he only lasted until the early 70s when he got back home. He suffered a lot obviously.
NT: Yeah.
GT: From traumas of the war. So now. When you came back to New Zealand what ship did you come back on?
NT: Andes.
GT: Andes. I think that was the one they used the most I think to, to bring back a lot of them.
NT: Yeah.
GT: The New Zealanders. So I understand you met your then to become wife. How did that work?
NT: Well, my wife was a WAAF at Mepal and she and I shouldn’t have been consorting at all because she was just an ACW and I was by now a flying officer. But she was sort of in charge of the mess. Well, not really in charge. There was real officer above her but she was very senior and she had a beautiful smile and a lovely little lass and I thought I’d like to get to know her. And my friend Ray Tait knew a friend of hers and he told her that I would like to say hello to Betty Box. And it was arranged that if I turned up at, I think it was 8.30 one night I could be smuggled into their rest room behind the kitchen and, and meet Betty Box. And we did. And we met surreptitiously when off and on when I wasn’t flying and she was off duty. Used to manage to use the orderly officers, no the intelligence officer’s phone. He had a room to himself next to the place I was assigned to sleep in which was next to Ray Tait in what seemed to have been a billiard room. Looked as though there had been a double up of buildings at Mepal and one set that looked very much like our mess and the billiard room was used for accommodation. The intelligence officer had a telephone and I’m sure he knew we used it and we used to communicate by telephone to find out when she might be off shift. Sometimes we would meet, arrange to meet in Sutton or catch the bus into Ely and go and have French Rarebit. Cheese on toast or Smith’s potato chips and lemonade and get to know each other that way. And sometimes we would eat our potato chips and drink our lemonade in the grounds of Ely Cathedral. Never ventured into it but knew it’s grounds pretty well.
GT: So you arrived back in New Zealand October ’45.
NT: Yeah.
GT: And when did Bett come out from England?
NT: She came out in January ’46. Pregnant.
GT: And the war, the war brides, that was pretty much the war brides ship was it? They had a lot of —
NT: She came out on a troop ship. Mainly with soldiers on it. The Otranto. But there were a lot of war brides on it. And a fella, Ivan Elder, who never got to the squadron was an instructor on, a pilot he went up to Lyttelton to meet his wife off the ship as I did, Bett. We didn’t know each other and didn’t meet each other. A photographer from the Weekly News saw the two of us. We weren’t even together. The four of us. He said, ‘Oh, you four get together. I want to take your photo.’ And it got in that publication. The Weekly News that came out in 1946.
GT: Yeah.
NT: And we’ve still got the book there with the photo and I think you’ve still got the photo ourself.
GT: So how many children then did you have throughout your time?
NT: Eventually five. Yeah.
GT: And you lived here in Dunedin, New Zealand all the time.
NT: No. We went back and lived with my parents Myross Bush farms about seven miles out of Invercargill. She was greatly received by my family and the neighbourhood actually. It was just wonderful really. We got our, the master bedroom was given to us and eventually when the baby was born he would be a honeymoon baby because he arrived nine months after our marriage and we were given the main bedroom in the house that mum and dad had occupied for years and life was good.
GT: Nice.
NT: But we eventually, they sold the farm and moved in to a smaller house in Invercargill. We still lived with them. We were rather overcrowded with my brother and sister there too in a two bedroom house. Used the lounge as a bedroom too. It was pretty, pretty overcrowded but we eventually got a state rental house and after about two years we bought our first house.
GT: Life still was pretty difficult after the war wasn’t it then?
NT: It was. Yeah.
GT: And how did you find it when you came back from the war? Did people want to know what happened? Did they discuss with you?
NT: No.
GT: Or was it just got on with life.
NT: Just got on with life. I worked in the Public Trust Office. I was a junior clerk when I went away and I was, the district public trustee wasn’t pleased at me being married because he had to pay me a bit more because I was married and he wasn’t a happy man [laughs]
GT: So, so —
NT: Nobody wanted to know what you’d done. No. You just had to get down to the work you’d been doing.
GT: Because many New Zealanders not that remained in this country and whilst you guys went away to Europe and the UK for the war they, they seemed not to understand or appreciate what Britain and you guys had gone through.
NT: That’s true.
GT: And therefore when you came back here in your thousands, obviously thousands didn’t come back but the thousands that did, they didn’t want to know. They didn’t want them to tell them what was going on. They clammed up and did you find that many of the airmen that came back who did that suffered in the ongoing years after that?
NT: Oh yes. Well, very much so. It affected me I’m quite sure. I think it had a lot to do with me deciding to give up the accountancy side of life. I was a qualified registered accountant and I ended up training for the Anglican ministry at age of thirty seven with five kids. Which wasn’t really fair on them when I think about it. We moved from Invercargill to Dunedin and I think in many ways you know cause a guy to strange sort of things. Looking back now it was maybe an act of atonement on my part.
GT: And you took on the title of, was it reverend?
NT: Yeah.
GT: For you.
NT: And I eventually became Archdeacon of Dunedin. Vicar General for ten years. That’s the next rank to the Bishop in charge of administration when he’s out of the diocese. And I was made an Archdeacon Emeritus which still held the title. There’s only two of us in the diocese, Archdeacon Emeritus. I’m still a licensed as a officiating priest in the church but I don’t do very much but I do for family marriages. Married two granddaughters earlier this year. I’m marrying one in February up in Arrowtown too so —
GT: Nice. Yeah.
NT: In recent years I’ve taken several funerals for airmen but our Brevet Club which had a hundred and fifty members in it after the war which was formed actually to try and help fellas in difficulties just develop a fellowship and mutual help for one another. We had a hundred and fifty. I’m the only one left now. Two died just last month. And I’m the last survivor of the Otago Brevet Club.
GT: So, the calling and your eventual reverend and then for the church there.
NT: Yeah. I become a venerable from reverend. Ven Nev.
GT: A good play on words there. So but, but what happened in the ensuing years that may have changed your mind as to, as to whether that was the right calling for you and what you’ve seen and decided on?
NT: Oh. Well, the disasters in the world. We used to be able to say man causes all these things. Well, he does cause a lot of the evil things, but you know plates that move under creation and earthquakes and tsunamis and that. I don’t think man causes them. There’s something wrong about the creation system somehow, and the creator doesn’t seem to intervene in any way. Well, of course —
GT: Still be [unclear] yeah.
NT: The stock answer I give is of course God only works through people. He’s got no hands but our hands and no feet but our feet and no hearts but ours. But it doesn’t seem to satisfy me quite. I’m struggling a bit.
GT: You’ve for a long time been the representative for the New Zealand Bomber Command Association and taken many services for them and I’ve been secretary for ten years but I know before I joined the 75 Squadron Association you were also known as the Association’s Reverend. So you did spend a lot of time working back not only in the community but with your fellow airmen.
NT: That’s right.
GT: Yeah.
NT: I wrote a little song about it. I’ve called it, “Man of Air,” that’s based on a title from one of the books I’ve read, “Men of Air,” which was a wonderful book really. So I’ve written this little song called “Men of Air,” and it touches upon the things that men went through that flew, and those that come home came home with a few wounds unhealed and wounds and griefs. Griefs and that. And it’s set to the metre that can by sung to the tune Melita, which is so well known. JB Dykes, wrote the tune way back in the 1700s to 1800s. It’s the one that the Naval men sing, “Eternal Father, Strong to Save.” So I’ve usurped it and got an airmen’s song to it now. And I don’t even mention God in it and that probably upset some people. But I’ve come to realise that a lot of men lost what faith they had in God through war. Some discovered it. I discovered it I suppose but I’m not sure that I discovered it properly.
GT: Yeah.
NT: Although people tell me that I had a great ministry I think my family suffered a bit through it. I was awfully busy looking after everybody else but my own. They don’t blame me but I sometimes —
GT: On reflection.
NT: Have regrets about it.
GT: You can see that, yeah.
NT: I’m still a chartered accountant by the way.
GT: Well, I’m sure you’d be able to take the books up. You’ve welcomed me in to your home this weekend so I certainly thank you for that. We’ve known each other for quite some time but it’s been fascinating listening to your story. I know the International Bomber Command Centre will relish your views, your experience and what the sacrifices you went through for king and country at the time. One of the last things recently is from your medals group. You have been awarded the Legion of Honour from the French and that was a bit of a surprise to you was it not?
NT: Yes. Very much of a surprise and I just, I’ve got mixed feelings about it. It seems rather an undeserved thing. Unearned in a way but anyway it’s been given to me and I suppose I should accept it and wear it with pride.
GT: The, the irony for many of us, and I know yourself has been very strong is the non-issue of a Bomber Command campaign medal and, and yet the English didn’t bestow that upon you, or for you guys and yet the French are willing to acknowledge that you guys helped to liberate France for their freedom.
NT: Yes. It is ironic, isn’t it? Yes. So, you know in a way got to say thank you France.
GT: But perhaps with the EU situation and the Brexit thing now perhaps they’re not being very thankful. So that’s a shame for, for what the Commonwealth did for Europe to make sure they were saved from the Nazi regime that was —
NT: Yeah.
GT: Sweeping through there. So how about yourself though? Is there one last thing you’d like you’d like to, like to mention for us on recording here?
NT: Well, I would just like to say it was wonderful to know so many men in 75 Squadron. I’m very proud to have belonged to it and I’m mindful that I through age only was there in the latter months of its operations from the beginning of January to VE day really and conscious of the huge loss that that squadron suffered so much earlier. And other squadrons too. You think of that night on Nuremberg when ninety eight planes were, were lost to German flak and fighters and then a few more crashed returning to the UK and more crews wiped out. And it’s always been sad for me that Bomber Command was never acknowledged so much and Fighter Command was. I know it did a wonderful job in the Battle of Britain but Bomber Command was pretty active in the Battle of Britain too and had pretty huge losses at the time and every time a bomber went down seven men that got killed. That night in Nuremberg there were more airmen lost than were lost in the whole total Battle of Britain. Those are just some of the misgivings but I’ve got great honour for those men who did fly fighters in the Battle of Britain. And you know you get mixed feelings about a lot of things. So, yeah. It’s an honour to have served and I don’t regret having been part of Bomber Command.
GT: Fascinating. Thank you, Neville. Well, we’ve spoken nearly two hours and it’s nearly 1am and it’s, it’s been fascinating as we’ve talked a lot today on our trip through to Alexandra to, to be at the committal of another famous 75 squadron pilot. An aircrewman named Artie Ashworth. So it’s been, it’s been awesome having the day with you. I’m going to submit this to the IBCC Archives very soon and this will be put in there with your record of your service. So I thank you for your service and sacrifice for King and Queen and Country and I know there are a lot of people out there that will say thank you too. So —
NT: Thank you, Glen it’s been a wonderful day. You’ve taken me to Alexandra to share in that wonderful service for a great airman with a tremendous record of bravery and sacrifice and I’ve enjoyed having you here. I wonder if I can ask you if you might send my little effort on, “Men of Air,’ over to the International Bomber Command. They can do what they like with it. Whatever they want to do with it.
GT: It will be on their Facebook page. I promise you that.
NT: Thank you.
GT: Ok, Neville. We’ll sign off now. So, thank you very much, sir. And this is Glen Turner signing off from Mr Neville Selwood’s house in Dunedin, New Zealand. Thank you. And this was Neville Selwood’s story.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Francis Neville Selwood
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASelwoodFN180113
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:53:56 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Germany
Great Britain
New Zealand
Belgium--Brussels
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
New Zealand--Dunedin
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Description
An account of the resource
Francis Neville Selwood of Invercargill, New Zealand was fascinated with aeroplanes in his youth and lived near an airfield where he could go and watch the aircraft. He was keen to volunteer as a pilot but an early rugby injury made that impossible. He trained as a navigator and was posted to 75 Squadron in RAF Mepal. On one flight he and the flight engineer put out a fire on their aircraft with fire extinguishers. On their next flight the Gee broke down and he had to navigate to/from Munich by dead reckoning. On the way back they were attacked by two night fighters. Neville and his crew took part in Operation Manna. They also brought civilians home to their countries after spending the war as refugees in England and so had the experience of seeing prams and suitcases in the bomb bay. In later years Neville was inspired to write a song in memory of the crews of Bomber Command which he named, “Men of Air” and set to the tune of Melita.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-12
1943-10-12
1944-12-29
1944-12-31
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-05
1945-06-29
1945-10
11 OTU
1651 HCU
75 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Mepal
Scarecrow
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1049/11427/ANewhamDF170727.2.mp3
4317e63f3920f92373f45d230b14638c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Newham, Douglas Frank
D F Newham
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Douglas Newham DFC (1921 - 2022, 1337797, 156440 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an observer with 156, 150, 10 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-27
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Newham, DF
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GT: Now, I’m with Mr Douglas F Newham LVO DFC and Doug welcome and thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for your history and for the history of what you did with Bomber Command to be put forward for the Digital Archives. So, please tell us your story.
DN: Right. My name is Douglas Newham. I was born 13th of November 1921. Consequently, ninety five years of age at the moment. I started my life in, in the RAF by volunteering in 1940/41 and did my first operational tour as a sergeant with a serial number of 1337797. I did my training in the UK. I consider I was very fortunate to do, to do that because right from the word go I got used to flying in weather such as we have over here rather than in the blue skies of South Africa or Canada. So right from the word go I got used to crap weather. Any rate, I did my training in the UK as a navigator observer which was what I always wanted to do. I had no wish to be a pilot. I saw the duties of a navigator as more challenging. Any rate, I did my flying first of all on the dreaded Botha. The Blackburn Botha. And then very quickly they were grounded and we were on Blenheims. The short nosed Blenheim and the long nosed Blenheim for navigation. And my navigation training was from Jurby on the Isle of Man. And most of our navigational exercises were all up and down the Irish Sea and off the west coast of Scotland in glorious, glorious scenery and quite challenging from a navigational point of view. Having finished my navigation, bombing and gunnery training at Jurby, we were then moved up to Kinloss in Scotland, near Inverness. This time flying Whitleys. The old Armstrong Whitworth Flying coffin which looked like a coffin at least. And we finished there our navigation training up there prior to being posted to a Wellington Squadron and that would have been in the tail end of 1941 the beginning of ’42. Strangely enough we were first posted to 156 Squadron which was then still on Wellingtons. And it was the forerunner of one of the Pathfinder Squadrons. As a result of that at a very early stage I was given excellent training on the navigational aid Gee which I loved for the rest of my career. However, that was just as Pathfinder course. 8 Group was being formed and as a consequence of that our crew were posted from 156 to 150 Squadron down in North Lincolnshire. Again on Wellington 3.
GT: Ok.
DN: We stop.
GT: Yeah. Doug, where did you crew up? And who was your skipper and crew please? Could you, can you remember?
DN: Right. We crewed up at our Operational Training Unit at Kinloss in Scotland and I crewed up with a Canadian pilot, Bill Harris. Several years older than, than I was. As a mild diversion at the moment several years after the war I met his sister and married her. So I married my pilot’s kid sister from Vancouver. But that is another long story. Any rate Bill and I and our crew we started our first tour of operations on Wellingtons operating from Kirmington. I remember the first couple of trips were down the north west coast of France. Mining. Dropping sea mines in the channels used by the U-boats. And we dropped mines at probably something like oh five or six hundred feet and encountered a few flak ships. They were very very steep learning curves. I do recall that my [pause] somebody, somebody had suggested to my pilot that unbeknownst to me that it would be safer to do an asymmetric weave. Never to do a regular weave because that could be predicted but to do little bit one way a little bit more that way and then perhaps back. But nothing regular. Well, unbeknownst to me Bill tried this on our first operation. Suffice to say that I think we toured the whole of northwest France but we did find exactly where we wanted to drop mines. Did so and found our way back by which time they thought we were, we were gone because we were about two and a half hours later than we should have been and we were getting a bit short on fuel. Any rate, we carried on. Proceeded with our first tour with further mining operations and then bomber operations over western Germany. Still on the dear old Wellington. Our maximum load was four thousand pounds and we, we had one aircraft that did carry a four thousand pounder. It didn’t even have any bomb doors. It just had an open space and the four thousand pounder was pulled just, just up inside. Any rate, all was going reasonably well there and then there was the allied invasion of north west Africa. Of Algeria. And to our great surprise half the Squadron was sent on this invasion. So we, we flew down to Cornwall. And then from Cornwall down to Gibraltar. And then Gibraltar to an ex-French Air Force airstrip about thirty miles from Algiers. And we had, I think it was twelve aircraft. And our targets were mostly the German ports of Tunis and Ferryville. Then bounced back down the Tunisian coast or over to Sicily. Maybe up to Sardinia. But in the central Mediterranean we were fortunate on one of those operations that we were carrying our four thousand pounder and I did manage to get a direct hit on one of the lock gates at a German port called Ferryville which put the port out of action. Which was rather fortunate. Anyway —
GT: So from that point Doug you’d moved from Bomber Command through to the Mediterranean Command.
DN: Yes. To the North West African Strategic Air Force which consisted of, I think twelve aircraft. Yeah. And our command, commander in chief down there was Jimmy Doolittle who did the Tokyo raids off the carriers. Anyway, so we had started our tour in Bomber Command and then towards the end we went over to, well went down to, posted at away from the UK down to Algiers and moved in to the North West African Strategic. Anyway, came home. Finished there by which time we had lost, well our aircraft was the last remaining aircraft of the twelve that went out there. Most of them I must admit were either accidents or bad weather. Some being shot down. The casualty rate was considerably, considerably less than it would have been had we stayed in Europe. Very much. I mean, we were operating mostly between five and ten thousand feet. We were subject to a lot of light flak but compared to what it was like over Europe in those early days we were extremely fortunate. And recognised it. Germany had a few night fighters out there. Nothing like subsequently developed in Europe. Anyway.
GT: Yeah.
DN: Back to the UK where the crew were dispersed. I was dispersed to Abingdon which was an Operational Training Unit with Whitleys and I was in a Navigation School doing, trying to convert the navigators from their, their early theoretical navigation practices into more realistic operations. Training. Training flights and then more realistic of what it was like over the other side. Now, for some reason, and I have no idea why I was selected to go to the Central Navigation School for a staff navigator’s course. I have no idea why I was picked out. I get to this school and I find that I am the only NCO on the, on the course. They were mostly flight lieutenants and there was one wing commander and I was the lonely sergeant. As a result of that my social life was nil because they were all in the officer’s mess. I was in the sergeant’s mess. So I had, really had nothing else to do but study and I was absolute. I mean I I loved the course. I had, had always hoped as a youth that maybe I might get to university but that was not on in those days. But here I was on what was virtually a university course on navigation and everything to do with it. Astronomy, compasses, radio, tides, astronomy, huge amount of mathematics. And I loved it. I had got nothing else to do. Then I became an absolute bookworm and a swat and it got a bit embarrassing when the only sergeant on the course came out top and I was not very popular with my other course mates. But anyway my commission came through just as I finished that course and I went back to my Operational Training Unit only to find out that one of the conditions of such a course, the staff navigator’s course was that you were obliged to stay in a training position or a staff position for at least a year before you could go back on operations. Any rate I tried to wriggle my way around that and I very nearly got to the Mosquito Met Reconnaissance Flight but it was cancelled at the last moment and I was obliged to stay for that year. However, on the three hundredth and sixty fifth day after finishing the course I was called down to Group Headquarters and offered a job of navigation leader on a Squadron of Halifax aircraft up in 4 Group. So I grabbed that and from, from Abingdon, from my Operational Training Unit went up to Melbourne, just outside York on Halifax 3s. Initially I was not a member of 8 Group and I could only put myself on operations if somebody, somebody went sick. But then one of the flight commanders lost his navigator and he and I then lined up together. That was Squadron Leader Bill Allen who was on his second tour. And Bill and I hit it off precisely. We both had the same view on flying duties. We both trusted one another implicitly and equally the rest. Trusted the rest of our crew. He was a flight commander. I was the nav leader. We both had similar views on our administrative and leadership duties. Bill, for example would always ensure that if there was a new pilot he would never send a new crew up on a long distance difficult flight as their first operation. Whereas some of the other, other flight commanders would take a brand new crew and stick them on anything. I mean I’ve had a little bit of a tussle with one flight commander and indeed with my Squadron commander because we had a brand new crew and they put them on Leipzig which was a ten hour flight. And I objected to this for a new crew. I got overruled and they operated and the crew concerned did a bloody good job but that was, that was lucky. But any rate my own skipper he and I had very similar views and we would not infrequently take lame ducks with us. And any rate we Bill would too, too frequently choose the rough targets rather than the easy targets. But he, he believed in leadership in its, in its true sense. We did, on one occasion towards the end of the war lead a three hundred. I think it was three hundred and fifty or four hundred raid of Halifax aircraft. We were the lead aircraft on a German oil target north of the Ruhr. But in the end we got separated because we were operating more frequently then Group thought we should. They wanted us to stay so that we would remain in our admin capacity for a longer period. Frankly we didn’t give a damn about that. We operated when we wanted to. As a result of which Bill was promoted to a wing commander and moved elsewhere and I was disciplined. However, Bill, I’d say he was a bloody good pilot. He ended up with a and DFC. And any rate I then finished my spell with 10 Squadron during the ’39/45 European war. I would fly with anybody who needed a navigator and chalked up my operations. Anyway, the end of the European war came and the Squadron was immediately, I think it was the second day after the, after the European war was declared over if I remember correctly we converted to Dakotas for glider towing and paratroop dropping for the Malaysian invasion. Well, they wanted to put me in a staff post somewhere but the Squadron was going out on operational duties so I managed to pitch it that I stay with the Squadron. And we went out with, well we converted to paratrooping and glider towing down in Oxfordshire. That was quite entertaining too. We were towing gliders. Let’s see what it’s like to fly in one. These troop carrying gliders that have, I mean they had a descent angle like a brick. They had flaps as big as barn doors. You came down at a hell of an angle. And on the flight I was doing in a glider and we, we disconnected from the tug and the glider pilot stuck the nose down. I was standing behind. I lost all sight of the sky. All you could see was the patch of ground where eventually you hoped you were going to land and he’d get each flap as I say like two bloody great barn doors and very low altitude pull the stick back into his stomach and you’re down. I tried to have a go at seeing what it was like to join with the paratroopers who were, we were dropping. But I got down to the dropping zone and unfortunately the surface wind was too strong so we had to call that operation off. Otherwise I would have had a go at that. Anyway —
GT: Doug, before we leave the European theatre for you just quickly going back to the Halifax. It seemed to be always the third cousin of the four engine heavies. To you guys and where you flew it was she as good as the Lancaster? How did you guys feel?
DN: We on, on the Halifax, we frankly loved the aircraft and thought it was better than the Lanc. We believed it was tougher. It could take more damage than the Lancaster. It couldn’t, it’s true it couldn’t carry the same load and it couldn’t fly at the same altitude but we certainly in the last, the last few months of the war until the Halifax 3 came in with the uprated Hercules engine we were certainly below the Lancasters and we couldn’t as I say we couldn’t carry the same bomb load. Later however in the later marks of Halifax we were damn nearly as good as the Lanc in those respects. It wasn’t as convenient an aircraft for a crew. I mean the wireless operator was sitting almost underneath the pilot’s seat. Feet. In the nose of the aircraft. And the navigator was sitting in front of him. So, to get, if you wanted to get back or even get up towards the pilot’s compartment I had to get out of my seat, walk past the wireless operator and up a couple of steps. So as I say you were way down below the pilot’s feet. It wasn’t as sociable shall we say but I think those of us who were operating on Halifaxes had every much as faith in our aircraft as a Lancaster. There was always rivalry between Lancs and Halifaxes. I still say I’d just as soon fly in a Halibag as I would in a Lanc. Sadly, I never flew in a Lancaster. In fact I never even, no I’ve never even been on board a Lancaster. You know. On the deck. But a Halifax yes. I enjoyed that and had great faith in it. Yeah.
GT: Many of the crews I’ve talked with have talked of how corkscrewing with the Lancaster or the Stirling was was a special art and and most pilots managed it. Some did not. How did the Halifax deal and did your pilot master the art of corkscrewing?
DN: Yes. The early Halifaxes had significant problems in that they, they could get in deep trouble by stalling the rudders. That was when the Halifax had a kind of defect. A fin. And then later, it was in the later Halifaxes it was made into a rectangular fin which overcame the problem of stalling of the rudders. But Bill could certainly corkscrew the Halifax and throw it around the sky like nobody’s business. And he did [laughs] No. I say the Halifax did not have as good a reputation. Bomber Harris for example disliked the Halifax and would have, all his memoirs and books about him indicate that he would, he would have sacrificed a year of production of Halifax aircraft if the factories could have been turned over to Lancasters. But that was not agreed and the Halifax did not, never did have the same reputation. I think a bit unjustified but it was based primarily I think on the fact of it had less bomb load and less range than the Lancaster did. But as far as the attitude of the crews and the confidence in the crews in their aircraft it was certainly equal. Equal to the Lancaster.
GT: Now, Doug it has been made mention that if they lended total production to the Mosquito that having thousands more Mosquitoes and not the four engine seven man bombers they could have saved a lot more air crew but still achieved the bombing of Germany. What’s your opinion on that?
DN: It, I mean statistically it’s true. You’d have had to have had a lot more. A lot more Mossies. It was questionable whether we’d got, whether we got enough airfields because obviously you’d have to have three or four Mosquitoes for every Lancaster or every Halifax. You might not have had some of the precision of the mass bombing that the Lancs and the Halifaxes achieved although with [pause] with Oboe and some of the other navigational aids the Lanc — the Mossies were capable of accurate bombing but I can’t see the big mass raids being conducted by what would achieve the same bomb load per raid as the, as the Lancasters and the Halifaxes. I mean a raid comprising just of Mosquitoes would have been at most six seven of four thousand or five thousand pounds so you’d have had to have had two or two and a half times as many aircraft. And then there would have been the problems of concentration and mid-air collisions and the density of traffic. Have you got enough runways and aircrews in the UK to do that? So no. I think we probably had it about right. Although the Mosquito, Mosquito was a very fine aircraft. Again, I would have loved, I would have loved to have gone in those. But no. My own job as a navigator in a heavy bomber I I really loved it. I think I was good at it. My navigation aids of Gee and H2S and Air Position Indicator. I was paranoid about accuracy. Way over the top and quite unrealistic. I admit that. But I used to fix my position either by Gee or by H2S every six minutes. I had my Air Position Indicator and I was working to the nearest decimal of a minute. So I was working to the nearest six seconds and I was fixing every, every [pause] every six minutes. The reason being if I did it every six minutes I didn’t have to work out how many miles or knots I was doing in an hour. Just moved the decimal point. So I had a, a very very strict navigation procedure and discipline for myself which a number of others on the Squadron followed. I mean if you did a ten hour, a ten hour trip and you were fixing every six minutes, you know. That, you’d be doing ten fixes, ten calculations of ETA and track and distance of track I’d say every six minutes. They’d do that ten times in an hour. If you’re on a ten hour flight you got a hundred. It was a bloody high workload. However, I loved it. That was my job and I loved it. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Yet the Americans obviously were pretty thick to the last couple of years of the war in the air during the day and I was also made aware that most of the flights of the American bombers only had a navigator aircraft. And so most of the aircraft didn’t actually have a navigator.
DN: Yeah.
GT: Did you have contact with the Americans in any way? And what’s your thought on the fact that they went in with one aircraft with one navigator for a bunch? With your experience on the Halifax there.
DN: I think that was probably misguided. But their whole technique was very different from ours. I mean, we were operating at night because, well we had to. We could not defend ourselves by day against the Germans fighters. We had difficulty doing so at night. I mean we were very near, I believe Bomber Command was very nearly overwhelmed by the German night fighters. Witness Nuremberg. The number we lost there. But the only way we could operate during most of the war was certainly at night where obviously you had to have one navigator per aircraft. When we were operating by day once we got air superiority and I mentioned the occasion that we led a three hundred and fifty or four hundred aircraft on on this oil target it’s true that the others could have followed us. I think it would be, it would be foolish to do so because you had no, no insurance policy. If that one aircraft got clobbered the others would be in trouble. I, I was of the opinion that most of the American aircraft had at least a second pilot was able to to have a fair bit of expertise at navigation but to be honest I’m, I’m not adequately familiar with what the Americans could do. We certainly had, well, to me navigation was an art and I loved it. Yeah. Very different for tactical if you were on tactical target by shall we say smaller aircraft like the Boston or the North American. That would have been a lot, a lot different from my type of navigation. It would have been a lot more map reading than. I mean I was doing mostly, would be by Gee and H2S and traditional DR navigation. Occasionally, very occasionally you’d resort to a bit of astro but Gee and H2S were my, my two main nav aids.
GT: And were they cutting technology for the time? Was, was that, was that really awesome designs and futuristic equipment that they gave you to work with?
DN: I think so. I mean there was other stuff coming along later. The Americans used Loran and I believe some of, some of 8 Group and 5 Group used Loran. They also used GH which I didn’t use. But certainly H2S was, I believe pretty cutting, cutting edge stuff. And they, I mean even in my time they, they got working to shorter and shorter wavelength. They, we had introduced gyro stabilised standards so the aerial scanner was, was stabilised. So you could move the aircraft and the, the Gee pitch, the H2S picture on your screen didn’t change because the scanner itself, the rotating scanner was gyro stabilised. We had variable rates of scan so you could change the speed of scan to take better definition or better accuracy. So we were getting better accuracy because the frequency reduction has got shorter wavelength. We had various variable speed scan and gyro stabiliser and those, those modifications were being introduced while we were operating. So I think that, I mean much of that stuff went on at Malvern which was a kind of centre of, one of the centres of research. And I think they did a bloody good job of keeping up to date. I mean there’s been a lot of criticism about navigational ability and bombing inaccuracy in the early part of the war and there was a government, government inspired survey of this. And results were pretty horrible. I can’t remember the details now but it was less than a fraction of our bombs were getting within kind of five or twenty miles. And I think that was justified but they were in the early days of the war and then at the same time there was a lot of development work going on with new compasses, gyro stabilisers, distance reading compasses, with H2S, with Gee, with the Air Position Indicator. There were lots of developments that were coming along in those early days of the war and kept coming along. And I think the development guys were doing, you know a brilliant job all the time in trying to improve things. Perhaps we in 4 Group didn’t see as many of those clever things that perhaps 5 Group or 8 Group but I think there was a lot. A huge amount of credit due to those guys who were in the development. Equally, on the, some of the radar counter measure stuff which is another one of my interests on how we, how we tried to fox the German radar and the German night fighters. Ok. They, they out foxed us with their upward pointing cannon and Schrage Musik and it was on, but it was on a programme with the BBC some years ago about the see-saw activity that was going on. The Germans would introduce something. We would either counter that or better it. And it didn’t matter whether it was radar or weaponry or tactics it was, it was a swings and roundabouts, see-saw developing, changing all the time. And if you look at some of the, I’d say the German radar and the systems of Fighter Control while they were changing that we were introducing new measures to detect their fighters to make life difficult for them. I mean, we, you probably know we had, we had microphones in the engine nacelles of our aircraft. So if we were over the other side our wireless operators would tune in to the frequencies used by the German fighter controllers. Then blast the noise of the engines on that frequency to drown out. The most brilliant thoughts of all were the Germans realised that we were doing our damndest to mess up their radar and their fighter control system and they suddenly introduced women controllers. So the German night fighters only took notice of a woman controller because they didn’t whether it was a German controller or a British controller. And at one stage we were carrying German speaking radio operators in 100 Group aircraft who would come up on the same frequency and German speaking Brits who would direct them to return to base. The weather was closing in. Or don’t take this vector take another vector. And they were, putting it bluntly they were trying to bugger up the fighter control system by using German speaking Brits. So the Germans overcame that by suddenly introducing women controllers. So the German night fighters only took notice of a woman controller. And within forty eight hours we had British German speaking women who were taking over and issuing conflicting instructions to the night fighters. I think the brilliant thinking that our own people had thought this was what they might do so we’ll be ready for it. And that kind of see-saw of activity and counter activity went on. Well, it wouldn’t have been just in aviation it would have been in anything else. But I found it fascinating.
GT: The crashed aircraft must have fallen into German hands. Do you think that, that Oboe and H2S and similar equipment the Germans managed to analyse that and better their own from it?
DN: Unquestionably. I mean all of those equipment had explosive devices in them with crash switches so that if the aircraft did crash there was an inertia switch inside which would set off the explosives and destroy the critical part of those bits of equipment. But inevitably that didn’t always work and the Germans did get at our stuff and were trying to, well they got certainly got into H2S and discovered, you know the frequencies in use and produced Naxos. I don’t know whether you know they was a, they had a session with the BBC some years ago. There was a German night fighter operating, operating out of Denmark, got itself lost. It hadn’t, it flew south west rather than north east and landed at Woodbridge, one of our emergency airfields down in Suffolk which was virtually running out of fuel. The German pilot and observer radio guy had got themselves completely lost. Our scientists got at it and found that it had got an equipment which was code named Naxos which could home onto our H2S. So the German night fighter could be directed by his ground controller in the general vicinity of the bomber stream and with this Naxos equipment he could home right in on our H2S. And anyway we then developed equipment to home on to Naxos. So some of our night fighters could home onto their night fighters. And it was this, and it’s a fascinating topic this see-saw in technical developments. Fascinating. Yeah.
GT: Now, the, the Schrage Musik.
DN: Yeah.
GT: The upward firing cannons —
DN: Yes.
GT: Of the German night fighters to, to, because the Halifax, Lancaster and Stirling didn’t have a, well —
DN: Yeah.
GT: Ball turrets.
DN: Yeah.
GT: As the B17s, and I’ve been made aware that some Lancasters had belly guns. Did any of the Halifaxes ever been modified with such?
DN: Yes. Yes, but you couldn’t have an H2S at the same time. And they were called Y aircraft. And they had, they, the blister with the rotating scanner that of course was removed and there was a half inch, a single half inch calibre gun on a hand mount with a gunner sitting there freezing his whatsits off. Just looking down.
GT: So, so there was an eighth member of the crew then. Deliberately.
DN: Yeah.
GT: An eighth member.
DN: Yeah. Yeah. And in fact one of my books over there on 10 Squadron operations and I’ve got one or two sample crew lists of before an operation and you’ll find here and there will be a Y aircraft with an extra crew member known as an under-gunner. But it’s not a power operated turret. I never operated on one of those. We always had upper turret, rear turret and H2S. Not that we had a choice. That was allocated by somebody I don’t know. But what my skipper used to do was he would every so often he would drop a wing one way and then drop a wing the other way so particularly the mid-upper could peer over the side and get a better view. And with the rear gunner and the upper gunner cooperating with one another and knowing that the Schrage Musik was around and they could come up from underneath you and with the wireless operator looking at Fishpond and some of the other devices which could detect other aircraft coming towards you. What with that and a bit of extra vigilance as I say. Rolling the aircraft. Somehow we managed it. But it was a very deadly weapon was Schrage Musik. Two bloody great cannons and right underneath you.
GT: With the aircraft and the streams did you ever encounter any aircraft above you that you managed to avoid?
DN: Yeah.
GT: Bombs dropping on you?
DN: Yes. I’ve been underneath an aircraft and looking up into his bomb bay where he probably wasn’t more than twenty feet above us. And you look up there and you could see everything but the kitchen sink up and he’s got his bomb doors open. Edging in to get on to target. And your bomb aimer was down in the nose telling the skipper left left or right and you’d be looking up and seeing a Lanc or another Halifax above you with his bomb door open and everything but the kitchen sink in there. The navigator. The bomb aimer would be saying, ‘Left. Left.’ And you’d tap the skipper on the shoulder and say [laughs] No. And there were, there were a number of occasions of course and the operational research people had worked out what the expected rate of bombs dropping on our own aircraft. In fact, do you know, have you ever heard of Bill Reid? Bill Reid was the last Victoria Cross and a good friend of mine. And Bill got his Victoria Cross on on an early operation and then went back later on a second tour. And he was hit by bombs being dropped from a Lancaster above him and managed to bail out and spent the rest of the war in a POW camp. So I mean it did happen. We knew it. We knew it would happen inevitably. The flight engineer and, and the mid-upper gunner and occasionally the pilot but certainly as a navigator once I had handed over to the bomb aimer I would be up there looking. Adding another pair of eyes. Trying to keep out of the way.
GT: So, in the bomber streams did you, you were in formations of Halifaxes and Lancasters?
DN: No. No.
GT: No. You were just all a mix.
DN: No. You [pause] you had each, each Squadron, each flight, almost each aircraft, not quite, you had a time span when you were, it was your turn to be on target. The raid might be forty minutes in length shall we say? Thirty to forty five minutes depending on the number of aircraft. And each Squadron had its own height band and its own duration on target. So it would have perhaps eight minutes on target out of a total of forty five. And each Squadron would have that. And each Squadron would have its own height band. So you knew darned well and of course the Halifax not having the performance of the Lanc it was generally the Halifax who would be at a lower level. Which would prompt you to keep a good look out. But I mean there were occasions when the aircraft, there might be an aircraft two thousand feet above you and you wouldn’t have a hope in hell of seeing anything coming down. But yes not only mid-air collisions but being bombed by your own aircraft was a known and anticipated factor but again the operational research people, the whizz kids with their mathematics and probabilities way beyond the Squadron activity did work out what was an acceptable risk and consequently worked out what was an acceptable density of a bomber stream. If you got it too dense then yes you’d be increasing the chance of mid-air collision. You’d be increasing the chance of being bombed by somebody above you. And they would adjust the density of the bomber stream to meet those parameters.
GT: What, what was the likelihood of you getting out of the Halifax if it was going down?
DN: Well, I had an escape hatch immediately under my seat. So if I had to get out in a hurry I had to stand up, lift up my, fold up my seat, get my parachute pack and clip it on my chest and kick open the door and just go straight out. Unless, which I’m sure would have happened you were checking. I mean there were four of us in the front end. There was the bomb aimer, the navigator, the radio man. Well, the flight engineer into there. And the pilot. And we were all in a pretty, pretty congested area. And then we, there was an escape hatch above the pilot and this one which was underneath my seat. I don’t know.
GT: Now, Doug, you mentioned earlier about the actual accuracy of the bombing raids. And you likened it with the navigational equipment you had. But the bomb aimer’s role was to direct the aircraft to drop their bombs on target. So was there a correlation of equipment between the navigational and the bomb aiming equipment? Did they combine together or were they totally separate items?
DN: On the actual bombing it was either one or the other. In the early days it was entirely visual and that was from a relatively, relatively rudimentary bombsight where you would, where the bomb aimer would make adjustments for the height of the aircraft and, and the anticipated wind. And then he would look down and get two pointers in line with whatever the target was. Now, later on later developments of the bombsight had gyro stabilised bombsights where much of that mattered. Many of the parameters that were essential for bomb aiming were undertaken automatically. The height would be fed in from a, from an altimeter computer. The speed would be fed in by the same system as would register on the airspeed indicator. And as I say some of those parameters would be fed in automatically. Nevertheless, you would be the bomb aimer and this is what one hoped for pretty well every time was that the bomb aimer could see the target markers, target indicators on the ground and would be instructing the pilot which way to turn in order to get that cross right on that player and then push the tit. Now, if the weather was crap and there was no direct vision then it would be the navigator who would do so either through Gee or more likely and preferably through H2S. And I had my H2S set here and I could, I could, for example if there were a lake or an open space, a known open space in the centre of the city and you, your aiming point you would have calculated back to what was given you at briefing. If you can’t see, get a direct visual sight on the markers then aim for, for one five four degrees, three and a half miles from this park. And if you could identify that park on your H2S which frequently you could do if you were a good H2S operator then you could. You could get yourself to that position in the right direction and then you, the navigator would push the tit. And then it would probably come up, that method probably twenty thirty percent of occasions because so frequently you get over land the bomb aimer couldn’t see the markers. So we had, we had the means of dropping on either H2S or on Gee. Gee was a bit different. But the navigator would, I’d say swap over with him. The bomb aimer ideally, and this would happen in a good crew the navigator would train the bomb aimer to be able to operate the Gee or the H2S as accurately as he could himself. So the navigator could, well could supervise the thing and, and refine it whilst the, whilst the bomb aimer would be following it on on the radar.
GT: Now, you’re initial navigation training. What was that like compared to when you went back as an instructor yourself? Had, had they progressed in those years? Did they move forward with the new equipment? And, and how did you feel then becoming the instructor?
DN: Well, when I trained in the early days it was, it was pretty basic. We were flying Blenheims and you were doing ninety percent of it by visual pinpoints or by bearings or a bit by radio. Perhaps, not very much, by astro. When I went back as an instructor by then Gee had come in. H2S was just coming in. The Air Position Indicator was just coming in. So your techniques were changing. And one of the things I, I did when I was an instructor down at Abingdon was to devise exercises that were, as I saw it, much much more realistic. That reflected the kind of situations and procedures that one would encounter in the nav, in the real. You take, you take a crew or a crowd of navigators through and then you’d say and now you have H2S has gone u/s. What do you do? You know. And [they didn’t really know] [laughs]
GT: And what was the, what was the result? Did they come up with the right —
DN: Well I, I’m pretty damned sure that, that I ended up as an instructor exposing my pupils to a much more realistic situation. In fact, two or three of my my old pupils had said and I’m not trying to spread my own bullshit, did say that, you know, ‘You introduced us to practical navigation.’ I mean, I did, I did love navigation in every aspect and if I wasn’t operating I I think I became a good instructor because I enjoyed it.
GT: So your instructing role actually made, made you a far better navigator then you would have if you’d have just done one tour and then gone away.
DN: I think so. Yes. I say I, my, my period as an instructor was not in the final stages of training of a crew but in a fairly advanced. Advanced stage of their training. And I tried to make that as realistic to the real thing as I could.
GT: So how long did you actually serve with Bomber Command?
DN: How?
GT: How long did you actually serve with Bomber Command in the end?
DN: Well, that would have been nineteen [pause] 1941 until ’45 with, with a break of a few months when I was down in North Africa. But in that period I was still, as an instructor I was still in Bomber Command. Yeah. And I didn’t really come out of Bomber Command until I went out to to India to do glider towing and supply dropping and other silly things. Yeah.
GT: And by the end of your Bomber Command time you had accrued operations. Forty odd. Thereabouts.
DN: I did thirty on my first tour. Then I did my second tour. We had, with my skipper a number that didn’t necessarily go in the logbook. Yeah. My eyesight without going through my logbook over there I can’t tell you exactly how many. But I guess it was somewhere around about sixty five.
GT: And the Squadrons you flew on in Bomber Command?
DN: 156, 150 and shiny 10.
GT: And where were they based at that time please?
DN: 156 was at Warboys. W A R B O Y S that’s in what became 8 Group. 150 Squadron was in Kirmington which is in North Lincolnshire. And then out in a place called Blida in Algiers. Then 10 Squadron was at Melbourne. Just outside York. And then, and then out to India. India and Burma. Yeah.
GT: So —
DN: Oh, and Abingdon was where I did most of my instruction. Yeah.
GT: So your Bomber Command time was up and you received new posting orders. Did you seek something new or was that just the next thing on the rack for you? Where did you move to from there?
DN: Mostly accepted that that’s what was on, you know. In later years I got to get bloody awkward and would challenge it. When I, when I finished on the Halifax they wanted to, because I got my staff navigators qualification when I went to the staff nav school I mentioned earlier they wanted me to go to some unspecified staff post. And for some crazy reason I said, ‘No. I want to stay with the Squadron on operational duties.’ A bit bloody stupid in retrospect but [laughs] one was like that occasionally. Yeah.
GT: So you headed off to Burma then. Was that the next step after Bomber Command?
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we were in India on general transport duties because although you went out there to participate in the invasion of Malaysia and we, we knew all about or knew some about glider towing and supply dropping and paratrooping that was off the cards then. But we, we did have a period up in northern Burma where we were supply dropping to some Burmese tribes. When the Japanese, I mentioned where I went with Bomber Command when the Japs were in northern Burma to a large extent they lived off the land and they stole their food, or requisitioned it from the locals. And a number of the British political, political agents who had been in the Burma Civil Service were parachuted into northern Burma and persuaded the locals to burn their stocks of rice which made, made life difficult for the Japanese who then had of course to provide their own food for their troops. So when the war was over the Burmese tribes concerned having burned much of their stocks of rice including their seed rice were on the point of starvation. So obviously the Brits were morally obliged to re-supply them. Well, the army did a lot of this with trucks but in some of the high mountain regions in the extreme north of Burma where the Kachin tribes lived, K A C H I N, it was way beyond the ability to get trucks and there were no railways. So the decision was made to supply them, supply, re-supply them with rice by air which is where we came in. And the terrain up there is very very difficult terrain. The mountains. Some of the mountains go up way over eighteen, twenty thousand feet. But the lower ranges you still had to if you want to get into some of these areas you’ve got to get up to about eleven thousand, twelve thousand feet. And the villages are generally built on the ridges. On the spine of the ridges. They had to go over, go down, spiral down, do your supply drops, climb up and out. And we were flying in Dakotas and we had the rice in sacks. No parachutes. Rice in sacks. In three sacks. One inside another so that we chucked them out of the door, or toppled them out of the door. And when they hit of course the inner sack might burst and the outer sack might tear. The chances of all three going were pretty remote. So we would, we would fly to the area, circle down and then we would stack the sacks of rice up in the — no door. Take the door off the Dakota. Put the sacks up. My favourite position was to stick a sack of rice on the floor on the starboard side and get my shoulders against it and feet against these sacks of rice. And while the co-pilot and the pilot and co-pilot would bring the aircraft down, normally you would come along the ridge. Never go across it because you could never judge the, judge the approach altitude accurately enough, so you would come along the ridge, getting lower and lower and honestly you’d only be twenty or thirty feet above the trees until you came over to the, the centre of the nominated village and a light would change above the door and you’d heave and pop the sacks of rice out and then go around again and do this. And we were engaged in that for about a month. Living in tents on an old Japanese airstrip at Meiktila. And then one particular sortie to a new, new grid, never been there before. There were four of us. Four aircraft and we were number one. So we flew, let down, did our drop and climbed up again and then went back to an advanced base to pick up some more rice and we saw number two aircraft starting to circle down. Any rate, to cut a long story short number four aircraft, we don’t know what happened to him. He never came back. And numbers two and three didn’t come back from their second drop. So out of the four aircraft who was the lucky one? Yes.
GT: And that was 10 Squadron you were with.
DN: Yeah.
GT: And they converted to C47s to go out.
DN: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: To the Burma time.
DN: Yeah.
GT: Ok.
DN: And that, details of that is in the latest 10 Squadron booklet.
GT: Marvellous. So, how long were you in that area for? In Burma.
DN: Came back in ’46. Yeah.
GT: And you carried on in the RAF?
DN: No. No. I would have carried on in the RAF but they would only offer me a short period and I wanted to go. If I was going to go in I wanted to go in for a career and they were hanging up on me. I think it was something like four years. And I said no thank you. So I then applied as a navigator with BOAC. The forerunner of British Airways. And they said, ‘Ok. But wait ‘til you get — ’ I applied while I was in India. So when I came back I applied and they said , ‘We don’t need any more navigators.’ However, I did stay with BA. With BOAC, BA for the next thirty five years in operational posts on the ground out in, oh Cairo, Khartoum, Basra, Kuwait. And then back to this new airport called Heathrow. And then from a series of luck and luck believe you me from what I’ve already told you luck played an extremely important part in my life in the RAF and my survival. Anyway, luck played a bloody big part in post-war and I stayed in British Airways, BOAC, British Airways for the rest of my career and ended up as general manager operations control in charge of minute to minute operations worldwide. If everything went alright I didn’t have a job. If anything went wrong I did have a job. So it didn’t matter if it was crew sickness, aircraft unserviceability, somebody digging up a runway running short of fuel, a war, a bomb warning, a hijacking then that was mine. Which was very exciting. It called on all of my experience and all I knew and I loved the job and I stayed there for the rest of my career. Wonderful job. Best job in the airline. Very exciting. All, if anything went wrong it was mine and I enjoyed it.
GT: What were the airliners that were about at that time when you were? The airliners that they were flying for BOAC at the time.
DN: Well, we had Concorde and we had the Jumbo. I mean when I started it was the flying, the old Flying Boats and the Lancastrians and converted York which was a development of the Lancaster. I mean, by, by agreement during the war the Americans took on the development of civil aviation and a definite agreement that Britain would not do that. So when the war ended we did not have a civil aviation industry. So we adapted the Lancaster to the Lancastrian. We modified it to make a York. We had the Halton which was a development of the Halifax. But the Lancastrian would take, I think it was nine passengers. And we did a cannonball service from Sydney to London and it landed, I think nine times. With nine passengers. And that was the crème de la crème of British civil aviation. I mean we had Flying Boats. Well, you had TEAL. TEAL had Flying Boats down, down under. And we had those when I was in Basra. But it took a, took a long time. And, and Britain didn’t have the money. Didn’t have the dollars to buy American aircraft. Quite a long time before we managed to get ourselves on our feet with, with decent aircraft. But when I left we, certainly we had the, we’d gone through the Britannia. We’d had that. We’d gone through the VC10 and we had by then the Jumbo which was after 707 and then the Jumbo and then Concorde. But that was before we had any of the [pause] what do you call it? The French manufacturer. Anglo French manufacturer.
GT: Aerospatiale.
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Before that had really got, got in to many of the civilian aircraft like the Airbus.
GT: Did you have anything to do with the Berlin Airlift? Being involved.
DN: No. No. No.
GT: Not with the airlines you had there.
DN: No.
GT: What about family then Doug? How did you get on with family? You got married. Did you have children?
DN: Yes. Two sons. One who you spoke to and an elder one who lives in London. The younger one he’s lived a very unconventional life [laughs] Has spent more time in the Antarctic than anywhere else with the British Antarctic Survey. More in the Arctic. And the elder one much more conventional. He’s an accountant. Or was an accountant and he now is a senior executive with a manufacturing company. And I mentioned that I had married the kid sister of my, the first pilot I had. So, so we had a [pause] I’ve had a bloody marvellous life. Luck has played a huge, huge amount. Opportunities that have arisen. Sheer luck.
GT: I understand you had some time with the royal family.
DN: Yeah. One of my jobs in BA was any time royalty was travelling for example if the Queen was coming out to New Zealand then I would get a phone call saying now we’ve got a flight coming up for the Queen to wherever. Give me the date. ‘How many?’ ‘Oh, about the usual crowd.’ [laughs] Allow for seventy five and seven and a half tons of baggage. Which way do you want — well for example going to New Zealand, ‘Which way do you want to go? Do you want to go east about or west about? ‘ ‘Well, you know a bloody sight more about that than I do so come up with some suggestions.’ And I, I had, I’ve got a list of over two hundred and fifty flights that I did for members of the royal family. I mean if it was the Queen then [pause] then I would decide which way. What kind of range do we want? Do we want a long range aircraft to do it in a minimum number or perhaps a smaller aircraft? And then gut the inside of the aircraft and divide it up with bulkheads to provide a lounge area, a dining area, a sleeping area and what have you. And all of the arrangements. I mean, it was good fun. And I had a fairly small team who who would get involved in that and we all took it as a challenge. So we had a lot of those.
GT: These were BOAC aircraft that you would do that to —
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: The queen did not have a Queen’s Flight at that time.
DN: No.
GT: Of her own aircraft?
DN: No. She had a number of small aircraft. They were mostly, well in the latter years they were Vickers or, anyway twin engines. Small. I can’t remember it. The old mind. But they weren’t, their own aircraft on the Queen’s Flight were essentially for use within the UK or within Europe. Or if they were going to do a big tour we would position them out there. I mean, I remember we did one where we took the Queen out to New Zealand and then she went from New Zealand to Oz and then up through the Solomon’s and what have you. And the Queen’s Flight I think positioned some of their smaller aircraft for flights between the islands. And then we went then and brought her back. That was, that was quite amusing. Before they went I said to the captain of the Queen’s Flight, ‘Well, what happens if while you’re away there’s an election?’ Because we were in a ghastly political uncertainty at the time. He said, ‘Oh, don’t worry.’ Queen Elizabeth, err Princess, ‘Princess Margaret is authorised to dissolve parliament.’ I said, ‘I’m not worried about that but if while you’re away there’s an election we’ve got to get the Queen back in time to appoint the new prime minister.’ And I remember Archie, Sir Archie Winskill who was captain of the Queen’s Flight, ‘Good thinking, my boy.’ [laughs] So I said, ‘If the election is on the Thursday as it always is you let me know where you’re going to be every Wednesday,’ which included the Cook Islands and Solomons and what have you. I said, ‘You let me know where you’re going to be every Wednesday and I will develop a plan to get home.’ So, anyway I developed these plans. Labelled each one of them with an identification letter. I said, ‘You have a copy in your briefcase and I’ll have a copy in my briefcase so at least we’re ready for it.’ And it was, oh it was a long tour. I remember it was a couple of weeks later I get a phone call. I was at home at the time but I was working on my wife’s rust bucket of a Morris Mini and my wife came and said, ‘There’s Buckingham Palace on the phone.’ And the message merely said, ‘Plan Sierra.’ And Sierra being the identity of when we were going to get her back. And we didn’t exchange another word but on the day there was our aircraft waiting for her and brought her home. And that was the kind of [pause] if you like it was good fun and everything was different. Yes. It was important and you get in trouble if you got it wrong. But no. I’m, it was a very nice simple airline job wasn’t it? Rewarding and it was exciting in a different way as my RAF time. I mean, I was extremely, extremely lucky.
GT: How long, how long were you working with the Queen’s Flight for? Or for the royal family.
DN: For really twenty four years.
GT: And I understand you received an award for your time.
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: And that award is?
DN: That was the Royal Victorian Order. I’m a lieutenant of the Royal Victorian Order.
GT: And the letters are?
DN: Does it do me any good? No.
GT: And I understand also you were awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.
DN: Yeah.
GT: Can you please describe what that was for? And when?
DN: Well, that was for really for my second tour. Not for, not for any specific operation. For whether the citation refers to the standard of the whole Squadron. Navigation standard. The whole Squadron. And gives me credit for that. And and for leading. Leading the whole of the group on one or two operations like the one when we went for the oil target and I do, I can assure you that we were going over the Channel and my skipper said, ‘Doug, come back here.’ So I come from my little compartment in the nose. He said, ‘Put your head up in the astrodome and have a, have a look behind.’ And of course there’s three hundred and fifty bloody aircraft following me. I said, ‘I don’t want to know. Don’t remind me [laughs] Just shut up.’ [laughs] Oh well. No. I was extremely fortunate. I had lots of, lots of good friends. Lots of excitement. But the, I’d say one of which experiences was the way, the way these challenges seem to come out of nowhere and I enjoyed them.
GT: Bomber Harris, your boss at the time came in for a lot of criticism.
DN: Yeah.
GT: Specifically for carpet bombing and for that of bombing major cities.
DN: Yeah.
GT: That’s potentially weren’t strategic targets.
DN: Yeah.
GT: What’s your take on that? From, from being with it.
DN: We were in a situation of total war. It wasn’t a question of tit for tat. We were [pause] it was either them or us. And by then it was obvious that as far as Hitler was concerned he didn’t give a damn about what was right and what was wrong. Whether you should bomb civilians or not. And we were in total war and I for one accepted that. I know that there were times when I pushed the bomb tit and there would be grandma and grandad and the kids down below. Ok. Sorry. We were at war. I have, I regret having to do that kind of thing. I’m not ashamed of it. And if it happened again I’d do it again. I think towards the end Harris, what Harris did think he could do he could do it on his own. And it went, proved that he couldn’t. Nuremberg for example. The Nuremberg raid demonstrated very clearly that we were [pause] that German night fighters got their act together and we were, we were up against it so. But in the, in the perhaps slightly earlier days when we were really clobbering Germany city after city after city yeah. ok. War had descended in to that and I, I have no regrets. No conscience. And I think under the circumstances Harris was right. It cost many many many many of my mates. And others as well. But sorry. That’s war.
GT: Could they have done it any other way?
DN: I don’t think so. No. I don’t think so. We couldn’t, we, the army couldn’t have done it. And we didn’t have the capability of being that precise that we could pick out targets.
GT: Some have said that without the war happening and the methods and the designs of many things in aviation aircraft and your navigation equipment that that the world actually paced forward five years.
DN: Oh.
GT: Very quickly.
DN: Unquestionably. Certainly electronics, communications, navigation aids. A lot of, oh mechanical things must have developed at a hell of a pace. Plastics. Zips. You know, you can think of a billion things that came about through war. Stimulate. It did stimulate development. God, you’re up, you’re up against it. I mean, before I, before I joined the RAF I was in a UK government research, communications research laboratory, and funnily enough developing part of the radar. The ground. Ground defences radar that we had. So as a, as a youth I was exposed to that kind of development stuff pretty well soon after I left school. Yeah.
GT: In your later years you’ve been involved with Air Force Associations. Can you tell me something about the ones that you were associated with and the titles you’ve, you’ve ended up with?
DN: Well, I was very busy with the Bomber Command Association when I was living down near London and near Oxford and I was on the Executive Committee and we were very involved in the, in the Bomber Command Memorial in London. But then when we moved up here that was impractical and I joined, well I was in the RAF Association. So I joined the local branch where we have about [pause] we had I think twenty nine members when I joined the branch. And we now have sixteen. And [pause] we don’t do very much. That’s probably Brian. Is that you Brian?
Other: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DN: When I came up here I joined the RAF Association up here where we had a very small number of members and saw even fewer. And we’re, we’re now up to about seventy members. We, we rarely see more than about a dozen of them. So we’re not able to provide much in the way of social activity and as a result most of, most of our activity is connecting, collecting for the RAF charity. The RAF charity or the RAF Benevolent Fund. So I’ve done my stint of tin rattling. And as I say we have a very small band of loyal, very loyal volunteers. And we’re trying to, desperately trying to make it more active. To get ex-RAF people up here to participate more. We’re, we’ve got a website that will be up and going in the next few weeks. We’re on Facebook. And as I say one of, one of my problems is we collect money for RAF charity. We have problems in finding local people who need it or who will accept help. And it’s a pleasure if we’re, if we can, we can find somebody who, whom we can help. So much of the money goes into an overall pot and yet up here I’m sure there must be ex-RAF people who need help. And one of my ambitions has been to try and get those people to come out of the wood work and let us know they need a bit of help. I’ve found one or two but the number of, out of our seventy members we don’t have more than about ten or twelve people who between you and me get off their backsides to do much. So there we are. Anyway, that’s it.
GT: So currently you’re the president of the Royal Air Forces Association Cockermouth Branch.
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Yeah.
GT: And I believe thank you for your services.
DN: You’re welcome. Yeah.
GT: Is in order. Doug, it has been a pleasure talking with you today. Thank you very much for allowing me to add to the IBCC’s Digital Archive. Specifically of your Bomber Command history and experience, and, and no less at all your experiences before and your time after. And so thank you very much for that.
DN: You’re welcome.
GT: And this —
DN: It has been a crazy life you must admit. Yeah.
GT: And you’ve obviously had a time and your, your willingness to sit and chat with me is —
DN: Yeah,
GT: Is very special. Thank you. On the 27th of July 2017 I’ve been talking with Doug Newham and he, from his house here in Upton Caldbeck in Cumbria this is Glen Turner from the IBCC Archives in Lincoln and the New Zealand 75 Squadron Association secretary. And we’re signing off now. Thank you very much, Doug.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Douglas Frank Newham
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-27
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANewhamDF170727
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Format
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01:33:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Burma
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas Newham enjoyed his career as a navigator. Over his career he saw the development of technology in his chosen field. He and his crew spent some of their time as part of North West African Strategic Air Force. Following time as an instructor at an Operational Training Unit he started a second tour in Europe. He then went on to operations over Burma dropping supplies. Post war he enjoyed a very interesting career in aviation working for BOAC and BA.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
10 Squadron
150 Squadron
156 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
bombing
Botha
C-47
Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain (1926 - 2022)
Gee
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Lancaster
Lancastrian
military service conditions
mine laying
navigator
observer
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Kinloss
RAF Kirmington
RAF Melbourne
RAF Warboys
rivalry
training
Wellington
Whitley
York
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/615/11423/PNeechPRR1601.2.jpg
b18dcb33ac05d88b974e6778658b17de
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/615/11423/ANeechPRR180705.1.mp3
71c61783aa88de07a69697151f381f10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Neech, Peter Rowland Ruthven
P R R Neech
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Neech, PRR
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Peter Neech (b.1925, 1851518 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a with 75 and 98 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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GT: This is Thursday the 5th of July 2018 and I’m at the home of Mr Peter Neech born 7 January 1925 in West Hampstead, London, England. Peter joined the RAF on the 7 January 1943 at the age of eighteen, beginning his training to be an air gunner in the July of 1943. Once training completed and fully crewed, Peter completed a tour of Ops on 75 New Zealand Squadron with Stirlings and Lancasters in 1944. Then, after a break, joined 98 Squadron B25 Mitchells until VE Day. Peter continued his RAF career post war as an air gunner on Lincolns, Lancasters and with Coastal Command in Shackletons until retiring in 1956. Peter, thank you for allowing me to interview you for the IBCC Archives. Please tell me why and how you joined the Royal Air Force.
PN: Go ahead now. Yes, I joined because I was working in Hammersmith, London in a jewellers’ shop where my brother had originally worked until he joined the Air Force and so I worked there and the son of the manager came along one time and said ‘Oh I’ve really done it now. I’ve joined the, the I joined up, virtually, but it was in the Air Training Corps Cadets and I’ve joined the Cadets.’ And I said ‘Well that’s a good thing. I’ll join up’, and I joined the Hendon Squadron of the Air Training Corps and em I served with them from 1941 something like that until about 1943 when I joined the Royal Air Force on my eighteenth birthday and I started in as an air gunner on training and went through the training and eh at Westcott I selected, I saw eh ‘Hoot’ Gibson and his crew and I thought ‘They look a very steady crew to me.’ And eh he was third in line for picking out air gunners because they, they hadn’t that’s what they’d come to this country for, so I, he looked my way in between the third position and got in his crew. And from there on I was in ‘Hoot’ Gibson’s crew as a mid-upper gunner.
GT: Outstanding. So, so em, Peter, when you initially then joined as an air gunner at what bases and places did you train before you joined crew?
PN: Before I joined crew? I don’t think em
GT: You were in Scotland?
PN: Yes. Oh yes, I joined up in Scotland at Dalcross. RAF Dalcross and eh that was about three months and then it was there I passed out as a, as an air gunner. And I was very pleased with the little WAAFs there who very kindly sewed our tapes and brevvies on our uniforms. I wouldn’t have been able to do that but they could and they did. And so they sewed our uniforms up with ah the brevvies and the sergeant’s stripes and we were then sergeants. I came down to London then and eh on leave and eh got a, as I’d got a lot of kit, flying kit, I took a taxi home and eh the taxi stopped suddenly and I thought ‘What are you stopped here for?’ and he said ‘Well that’s where you wanted to be.’ And I looked around and true enough it’s my house had been eh quite badly damaged in a local bombing episode when night bombers had come over from Germany and bombed, laid a lot of bombs, and they had blown up a house only two doors, only two houses away from me, damaging my home quite severely. And eh but it got repaired and I went back then to eh a Wellington OTU at Westcott.
GT: So that was late 43 when you eh when you went home to find your house bombed. Was that German bombers or?
PN: German bombers.
GT: Not the German missiles? Not the V1s or the V2s?
PN: No, no, no. They came much later.
GT: Much later, okay. So, so then you arrived at 11 OT, OTU at Westcott in December 43.
PN: Yes.
GT: And, and what aircraft did you join up with there? Or did you go straight to the crew?
PN: No. Went in to Wellington bombers there. And eh I had picked out a crew at that time, ‘Hoot’ Gibson, and eh his crew, I became their mid-upper gunner. And we went from there to Stradishall because that was where they had fighting bombers and Stirling bombers, short Stirlings. And eh I had a mid-upper gunner there, and then we went on from there. And we had, there to [unclear] on to Lancasters and once again there was a mid-upper gunner turret, and then from there we went on to 75 NZ Squadron.
GT: So in Stradishall, and I’m looking at your notebook here and, and pretty much you only spent one month there on 1657 Conversion Unit.
PN: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And that was, that was, now ‘Hoot’s’ crew,
PN: Yeah.
GT: Can you name, name the crew members and where they were from, please?
PN: I, I can, but eh I’ll, no, I’ll have to look it up.
GT: No problem.
PN: Because I have got them all, but em
GT: We, we’ll come back to that.
PN: Their all, apart from one Englishman, who came from Brentford in Essex, the engineer, flight engineer, and myself, we were the only two Englishmen. The rest were all New Zealanders, rear gunner, navigator, em pilot and em bomb aimer. They were all New Zealanders and em from various parts of New Zealand. But eh I can’t remember exactly without looking up, where they came from. I have got the information but eh I can’t remember it now.
GT: Understood.
PN: Who could, who could remember New Zealand words anyway, Maori words [emphasis] at that. [chuckles]. So there you go.
GT: [laughs] All right. So you, em you, you arrived in early April on 75 New Zealand Squadron at Mapel?
PN: Yes. That’s right.
GT: And eh, you eh you did the first month there all on Stirlings?
PN: Yes.
GT: And then you went to LFS at Feltwell in the April.
PN: And changed into Lancasters.
GT: Late April into Lancasters. What, what was the difference between the Stirling and the Lancasters to you?
PN: Size.[chuckles] I used to stand beside the wheel of a Stirling and I came just to the top of the wheel. The Lancaster was much smaller. It’s a fighting bomber but it’s much smaller somehow. Em in size. [coughs]. Quite a, quite a good size and eh quite a good, neat little bomber.
GT: And you were able to fly higher?
PN: Yeah. And it’s a fighting bomber just the same as the Stirling, but much smaller than the Stirling. Wasn’t the same size.
GT: What was your view like. Em was it, was it better on the Lancaster?
PN: Oh yes. It was a, it was a mid-upper gunner turret. Just the same. And em we, we flew on that, on that for twenty six operations. Somehow the tour on one of the things was thirty operations. Somehow or other I managed to do thirty one. [laughs] How I, how I managed to do that I do not know, cos I did. And then I went on to [unclear]
GT: Right. Well, let’s stay with Mapel for the moment. So with, with your gunnery actions and your thirty one operations, did you get any squirts away at the enemy?
PN: Em, occasionally we had eh little eh squirts at them. But on the last, especially the last day, one German aircraft came fairly [emphasis] close to us on the starboard side and eh I kept my eye very closely on him. Eh but he was just flying alongside me, it was towards the end of the war, and all of a sudden he dropped a wing towards us and I didn’t like that at all. Then we, all of us, the rear gunner and myself we fired at him and we shot him down. And that German plane went down and a few seconds later there was a little explosion on the ground and that was him gone.
GT: So you can claim one kill?
PN: One kill at least. Certainly.
GT: The aircraft type was a ?
PN: JU88. A JU88. He probably wasn’t doing any harm but he did, he did drop a wing towards us and I didn’t like that and eh so that’s when we attacked him. I shot him down.
GT: So, did you say to the skipper, ‘I’m Shooting.’ Or did he, did you have to get permission? Or did you just do it?
PN: We didn’t need any permission, only as we’ve opened and fired our guns away. He was close enough I suppose two or three hundred yards. Something like that. Not all that close but eh close enough for us. But he dropped a wing in our direction, I was, I was going and I was firing.
GT: The um, you, you have a little note in your logbook saying that you thought you might have been fired upon from, from below. Was that, was that a rocket?
PN: Oh yes, we did see rockets coming up but em we didn’t take much notice of them. We didn’t even know what they were [emphasis] at that time. So eh, we didn’t take much, we thought they were just anti-aircraft fire as far as I know. But they did come up and they went whistling past us and that was eh they didn’t hit us and that was eh quite happy that they were gone.
GT: So later on you thought they were rockets? Wow.
PN: Later on I did think they were rockets and we learnt about rockets and we suddenly thought probably they were rockets and they had come passed us.
GT: Now, there, there, later on 75 Squadron there were some under-gunners. Did you hear anything about under-gunners?
PN: Never heard. Never heard or saw any under-turrets. No, didn’t see any of those at all.
GT: Did you have any problems with em German aircraft coming up underneath you at night?
PN: Well, we watched, we didn’t eh, we got the skipper to bank over well to one side and we searched underneath very diligently either side, and a little later on we, the other side, we turned the other side there, and searched under that side. We searched underneath very diligently, very carefully and em made quite sure there was no one coming up underneath us to attack us from underneath.
GT: You had been warned about that type of German attack, had you?
PN: Yes, we knew about that kind of German attack. Yes. And eh we were well aware that they could attack from underneath and we took steps to make sure they didn’t attack us [emphasis] from underneath.
GT: So em, how many night operations did you complete?
PN: Em, thirty one, I think on 75.
GT: No, the night time ones though. You did night and day, and day operations.
PN: Oh well, I’d have to consult my log book on that.
GT: And so, for the, for the raids at night though you did not see the other Lancasters next to you?
PN: Em.
GT: Could you see them very well?
PN: Occasionally you’d see them come up close and they would, yes, I did see one come up and I thought he looked a little bit like a fighter and em so we kept a very close watch on him but eh he turned out to be a Lanc. In fact the wireless operator, he has a little radar screen of his own there. He was shouting and saying that there was a fighter coming up on the port side, and I told him to calm down because I had been watching that aircraft for a good ten minutes and I knew [emphasis] that it was another Lancaster and he couldn’t see that he could see just a dot on his screen. But I had been watching it well and knew that it was another Lancaster.
GT: You, you wouldn’t want to be shooting down one of your
PN: And I wouldn’t want to shoot at that. [emphasis]
GT: Did you hear of that ever happening? That other Lancasters shot other Lancasters?
PN: No, no, I didn’t hear any of those. But em there was a time when eh we got eh bombed on the airfield and a lot of air, oh well one aircraft came back with a [unclear] bombs on and he made a very bumpy landing, a very damaging bumpy landing and eh he had [unclear] bombs on board and they kept those bombs on because the aircraft was going to do the same old place again the next day. But about four o’clock in the morning that aircraft [unclear] bombs blew up and blew the aircraft to pieces and quite a number of other aircraft of A Flight as well. And eh they did a lot of damage, but the following morning the replaced an aircraft in the afternoon and we had an aircraft come in to complete the Squadron again.
GT: It was that quick they replaced them?
PN: They replaced. And funnily enough they came in and em landed at the eh the site for A Flight and out of the aircraft a young women got, a young women came out and she climbed out and she had flown this Lancaster on her own, [emphasis] without any other crew and brought it in from transport. She was an air transport, air transport auxiliary and she’d flown that Lancaster on her own and landed it and delivered it to eh to us. Which was an amazing [chuckles] thing when you think of it.
GT: Huge surprise huh?
PN: Well we looked around for the rest of the crew and she said that ‘I am the crew’ she said, ‘I am the crew.’ And that was it. She was the crew.
GT: And eh
PN: And there was no one else, no one else in the aircraft at all. They, they went in and they looked around to find the rest of the crew and eh they came back and they said, ‘Well there’s no one there.’ She said ‘Well, there won’t be. I am [emphasis] the crew.’ And she went back to Air Traffic Control and eh brought the aircraft in and that was it. She just landed it on her own.
GT: So those aircraft that blew up?
PN: Yes, there was quite a lot of them eh on A Flight and B Flight. They, they all suffered damage from this aircraft that blew up at four o’clock in the, well they had [unclear] bombs on. Four thousand pounders and they all blew up and they damaged a lot of the aircraft.
GT: And you, you were in bed at the time? Did you hear it, feel it?
PN: I did and I shot out of bed. We thought that we were being bombed and eh that we were being under attack. But eh
GT: Pretty much an own goal?
PN: Yes. But it wasn’t eh [mumbles] it wasn’t that at all.
GT: But no one was hurt. That was the [unclear]
PN: No. No.
GT: But you managed to find some bits and pieces.
PN: Yeah. I did and I’ve collected an axe, an escape axe that there was lying there. It was lying on the ground. So I captured that and eh I’ve got it to this day.
GT: You still have it and you’ve just showed it to me. So that’s, that’s very good. That was, that was normally where on the Lancaster? Where did that axe normally sit? What position?
PN: Well, there were two, there were two. There was one bolted on to the side, of the starboard side of the aircraft and there’s one on the rear end eh on the stick before they get into the rear turret, there’s another axe. So there are two axes on each aircraft. I’ve got one of them.
GT: And, and they’re identical. You don’t know which position this one came from?
PN: No. No, no. You don’t know. They’re both identical. But I got one of them. And I’ve got it to this day.
GT: So, in the mid-upper turret position em when you were seated in it you could spin yourself completely and just keep going round and round?
PN: You could, you could [mumbles] cos I did like that.
GT: And, and were the guns positioned so that you couldn’t shoot your own tail?
PN: Ah, yes. I did have a, an interrupter gear. The, the raise that the guns, when they came towards the fins as well, they would raise up automatically and down the other side so that they couldn’t fire at their own tail or rear of, rear of the fuselage or any part of the fuselage. When you turned them round to the front they would raise up above the fuselage and down the other side. They couldn’t eh, it’s an automatic interrupter gear.
GT: How many rounds did you have per gun available to you?
PN: Em, around about three thousand, I think.
GT: Each gun?
PN: Yes. Each gun. And the rear gunner, he had ten thousand, because he had a track going down the fuselage with rounds in them. So he had lots more ammunition than we had, but we had about three thousand per gun.
GT: So the tail gunner had four, three lot threes and you had two.
PN: Yes.
GT: Okay, and so where was your ammunition stored? In boxes underneath your guns?
PN: In a box at the side. Eh, ammunition boxes at either side that fed up to each gun. Yes. Em and the rear gunner he had a track leading down the fuselage and into his turret.
GT: So the guns were right next to your shoulders or your head?
PN: Em, well, I forget now but they were reasonably close to, yes they came up round one side and into the guns themselves.
GT: So you could feel them when they went off, yeah?
PN: Yes. Yes. Yes, they were quite close. But not too close.
GT: And you, you were sitting in the seat or were you suspended?
PN: It was a seat that swung up like em like a [mumbles] swing, that eh you swung it down whilst you were sitting in it. But to get out you would have to swing it up and then get down again to the floor of the aircraft.
GT: Was it comfortable? You might have had to have sit in that way for eight hours or so.
PN: Yes. Sometimes we did indeed sit there for quite a long period. It didn’t, it didn’t worry us. That’s eh that’s [unclear] rear ends. [chuckles]
GT: And, and there was no size restriction, any, any height of a person?
PN: No. No height, em sometimes it got a bit cold in the turret. I did at one time get em the perspex shot away and eh I was out in the cold so I slipped down into the turret with just my eyeballs just above the eh turret then where the perspex should have been and I just kept an eye on any, any other aircraft that might be following us.
GT: And that was in the Lancaster?
PN: Yes.
GT: And, and was this anti-aircraft shrapnel or bullets from another aircraft?
PN: Who knows? I don’t know. Just the perpex just vanished. It might have been shrapnel. It could’ve been shrapnel and it just vanished.
GT: And, and did you em suffer from frostbite on your face?
PN: No, fortunately not. I had a oxygen mask on of course and eh goggles, so eh we, we did get a bit of frostbite where it showed but nothing much.
GT: On the forehead?
PN: Yes. Nothing much. No, the goggles were there and the oxygen mask was there and that protected us a lot.
GT: Now eh if you saw a fighter coming in was it your job to tell the pilot to corkscrew?
PN: Yes. If I was, if I saw one, I did occasionally see one eh I was wait, wait till they got to six hundred yards and then having warned the skipper that we wanted to corkscrew to port or starboard as the case may be, eh I would give a running commentary and eventually ‘Corkscrew. Go.’ And he would then drop a thousand foot and roll and drop another thousand foot and roll and climb a thousand foot and roll and up into his normal position again and that was a corkscrew. And by then the fighter had gone. Don’t know where he’d gone, but he’d gone and eh glad that he’d gone. That’s it.
GT: And Hoot was really good at a corkscrew, was he?
PN: He was excellent. He was really excellent at corkscrewing. He used to await my orders and as I said ‘Go,’ he would go [unclear].
GT: You had em, a couple of different pilots. You had Timmons and Williamson as pilots near the end of your tour.
PN: Yes, because on D, the D Day I had been off sick ah with those ears. Infected eardrums.
GT: Ah, now you thought you had ear wax. [emphasis]
PN: I thought I had earwax. But in fact, the doctor, when he looked he [unclear] he said, ‘No, you’ve got collapsed eardrums.’ And I was in hospital for a while having that repaired and that’s why Hoot gives a carry on to this tour and finished early to me. And I had to then go with another crew to finish my tour ah with other, with other pilots, Williamson, Squadron Leader Williamson was one of them and Timmons eh he was the other one.
GT: And they were short of a gunner so you stepped in?
PN: They, they that’s it, I stepped in then. Yeah. I finished my tour that way.
GT: And of your thirty one trips was there any operation that was, that stood out for you besides shooting down an enemy aircraft? Was anything dang –
PN: Not that I can think of.
GT: Dangerous? Ack ack? Em.
PN: It was always dangerous. It was always dangerous. There was flak coming eh and large amounts of flak bursting all around eh but it didn’t hit us and while it didn’t hit us we were happy. And that was it. But there was lots of flak going on, on the ground and flak coming up through the surrounding air, airspace, lots of fires below, where our bombs were going and when the bomb aimer released the bombs it sounded as if someone was slapping the side of a car. If, if you put your arms out of the car and slapped the side door, that’s what it sounded like when the bombs were released. And they left the aircraft, they banged as they left the aircraft. And the bomb aimer said, ‘Bombs gone,’ and the, about twelve thousand pounds worth of bombs a lot of bombs. So the aircraft eh raised a bit, raised up a bit, being the, having lost that much weight, and so eh that’s how it went on. But I suppose we came to expect that.
GT: Now if we go back to your, your first month on 75 and, and at that time the Stirlings were, well certainly well overdue to be replaced on a, for a front line squadron, I believe 75 NZ was one of the last front line squadrons to be replaced with the Lancaster since they’d already been flying for nearly two years. That was a bit criminal of Bomber Command to let you guys carry on flying the Stirling on that op. But you, you did quite a few gardening trips.
PN: Yes.
GT: What was the gardening trips like compared to later on when you were doing high level bombing?
PN: Ah well, they were much lower and much [mutters] mainly in the places like [unclear] and down in the south of France we laid mines in the eh estuaries, where U-boats were likely to come and be harboured. That was mainly our job on those. Dropping these mines for our action against U-boats.
GT: And what eh, what did the German defences have against you?
PN: Oh, they were quite lively. They were quite lively. There were plenty of flak positions, but then I looked at them and I shot down their beams, straight down the em searchlight beams particularly and it’s quite interesting to see, all of a sudden, the searchlights would suddenly switch off very fast and all way down the flight path, that was because they were getting a good sprinkling of eh my guns. [chuckles].
GT: And you, you could give them a good squirt from your mid-upper position?
PN: Yes. Oh yes, we, yes, we banked, banked a bit over and gave a good squirt of the guns, the guns at the searchlight positions and the searchlights switched off very quickly and the anti-aircraft fire started up quickly. Yes.
GT: So did they have land and sea flak positions, ships, flak ships as well, did they?
PN: I didn’t see any flak ships but eh I imagine there were flak ships about. Yes. I didn’t see any though.
GT: And you said you lost a very valuable friend on one of those gardening trips?
PN: Yes. He was on the third operation to, his third operation to Kiel, laying sea mines like we were. We were on the same operation but em it was our fourth operation and his third operation and he was, they were laying sea mines and a fighter came up from a nearby fighter station and unfortunately shot them down and they were all killed. That was em Megson and his crew, yes, Megson, I think is.
GT: Was your bomb loads all the same on the trips you did? They stuck with cookies and GP bombs?
PN: Yes, about twelve thousand pounds, about twelve thousand pounds altogether. The cookies and em bombs.
GT: What was the furtherest [sic] trip that you remember doing? Was it, was it over to Stettin or Berlin?
PN: Stettin was a long way off. Yes, Stettin, Stettin was about fifty miles north, north east of Berlin. Quite a long way away and took about eight hours altogether.
GT: And that was your third to last op, so you were, you were stretching it right at the end of your tour. Weren’t you?
PN: Yes, that’s quite so.
GT: And, what was, what was the morale like on 75 Squadron for you guys?
PN: It was good and in fact I came back from that particular operation and eh expected to see eh my particular pal, Pat Butler, he was eh living in a, a bed next to, virtually next to me in our hut and people called the Committee of Adjustments came round and collected up all his uniform and they collected up quite a few of my bits too. [emphasis] I, and they were the Committee of Adjustments and they collected up uniform and things like that to, to put them away. And it took me quite some time to get back to them and get my own bits of uniform back [emphasis]. Because they collected them up as well.
GT: So that was a, that was a good idea to make sure before you went on an op all your stuff was packed away nice and neatly, yeah?
PN: Yes, yeah. And eh the Committee of Adjustments came along when someone was shot down and they eh collected all of their possessions. Any eh, if they were talking about a man, they didn’t want any letters from his girlfriend eh, falling into the wrong hands as it were. So the Committee of Adjustments had the job of collecting up any letters like that. Making sure they didn’t fall into the hands of wives and eh others arrangements.
GT: Very wise that.
PN: Yes.
GT: Very wise. During July of 44, 75 Squadron suffered seven aircraft loss in one night.
PN: Yes.
GT: Do you remember that?
PN: Yes. Yes, that was a trip to Hamburg, a trip to Hamburg, and it eh took us quite some time and it was em
GT: Were you on that raid?
PN: Yes, I was on that raid.
GT: Particularly, specifically?
PN: Yes, on the
GT: 20th of July.
PN: Yes, yes, on the Hamburg raid and it was quite a, quite a lively bombing mission but we fortunately got back, we got damaged, we got damaged as we did very often on, on them. And em but we, we got back okay. And we came to land alright. But that was quite a hairy operation, to Hamburg.
GT: And to lose seven in one night must have been pretty devastating to the rest of the Squadron, yeah?
PN: Well, it was em it wasn’t out of the ordinary, we didn’t think too much about it. We, we kept a, we kept a, we expected losses, just as we expected everything else and eh what came, came along. That’s it. That’s part of squadron life. So that’s what you had to do. You might get eh, you might get more [emphasis] than seven going sometimes. Who knows? It was the luck of the draw.
GT: Who was your skipper, eh sorry, your commanding officer, on 75 at that time you were there?
PN: Maxie. Wing Commander Max.
GT: And what was he like?
PN: He was a good bloke, yes a good bloke and em we all liked him. And he used to come round to all the aircraft and have a little chat with them, mainly with the pilots and those others. Before they, before they taxied and went off. He used to drive round and have a little chat with them. Wish them good luck I suppose. But he didn’t [unclear] [chuckles] gunners as well. But he didn’t have time for the gunners. We were there that was all right.
GT: Wing Commander Max’s medal group was donated by his wife to the 75 New Zealand Squadron Association.
PN: Was it really?
GT: And they’re currently on display at the Wigram Airforce Museum in Christchurch, New Zealand, but they are, the property of 75 Squadron Association of New Zealand, so, so just to let you know that em, your, your ex-Commanding Officer’s medals are on display.
PN: On display. Good old Maxie. He was a good bloke, a good bloke was Max. Now I got em I got another set of medals, a second set for one of my sons who is now unfortunately deceased. So there’s a set of my medals, identical to my medals which are going spare, which eh, I would be quite happy to donate to eh.
GT: You eh, you and I can have a chat off microphone.
PN: Yeah. Yes.
GT: Thank you, Peter. Okay, so your, your time on 75 though, you must have gone to some pubs?
PN: What did you say?
GT: Some pubs.
PN: Well,
GT: Go and have a beer or two somewhere?
PN: Very occasionally, I wasn’t a, I wasn’t really a drinking man at all. I didn’t, I didn’t like the stuff really, if the truth were known. I would go to a restaurant to have a nice meal occasionally. But I wasn’t really a beer man, I didn’t like beer. Nasty stuff. [laughter]
GT: Cos there was, there was three main pubs, the Chequers and the Three Pickerels in your area.
PN: Yes, we went to them occasionally but very occasionally, but I wasn’t, I would eh go on the, be there for a, perhaps a few minutes and then nip off back home to bed.
GT: So eh, so did you go to any of the churches or cathedrals around Mepal?
PN: No, I don’t think I did.
GT: There was quite a few of them around there.
PN: Yes, there was Ely, of course, Ely Cathedral.
GT: And there’s Sutton, one at Sutton as well.
PN: Sutton there, yes.
GT: Now, the one at Sutton has eh, the complete casualty em, list of all airmen killed on 75 Squadron.
PN: Have they really?
GT: And they turn the page every day and I do think a copy was made and that is in the Chapel of St. Marks, on my old base, base at [unclear] and the chaplain on that base turns the page every day as well.
PN: Oh, yes, good.
GT: And so, so all your colleagues that were lost in the five years of 75 New Zealand Squadron RAF are remembered every day.
PN: So, Pat Butler’s name would be among them. He was a mid-upper gunner, the same as myself, and he was lost on his third operation to Kiel. Laying sea mines in Kiel canal.
GT: His name will certainly be remembered in this, this book, for sure.
PN: Yes, he was a great bloke.
GT: So next to you was at Mepal, after 75, there was 115 Squadron.
PN: Yes. that’s right. Witchford, on the road to Ely. Yes, they were there. I didn’t know much about them. Passed them on the road there. Often they were going, they were taking off at the same, much the same time as we were. On operations. But I didn’t know much about them.
GT: They, they were very unfortunate, at least on one night, had one aircraft shot down by a Messerschmitt 14, eh as it was coming in to land. Did 75 Squadron have any trouble with night fighters stooging around whilst you were coming in?
PN: We did hear, we did hear, have them occasionally and we had to keep a very close watch out and I can’t recall any being shot down. But eh I believe it did happen on more than one occasion.
GT: As the gunner, was it your responsibility to clean and fit the guns, or was that the armourers?
PN: No, I did mine, I did my guns. I did. The armourers could, would do them, but I, I used to do mine, look after my own guns and cleaned my own perspex, to make sure that my perspex was cleaned, in the top turrets.
GT: How did you clean your outside perspex? Did you have a door through the canopy or did you have to get out on the fuselage?
PN: I used to get out. There wasn’t, I think, [mumbles] there wasn’t a place where you could get out on to the front of the fuselage and there was em perspex polish that I could use, and I did, to make sure that my perspex was cleared and clean on the inside as well. If there was a scratch, the searchlight would hit us, a scratch and would split [unclear] effect. It was no good, so I made sure my perpex was clear.
GT: Like a prism mm.
PN: Mmm.
GT: With your training that you did as an air gunner eh, did that, eh when you look back at sitting in a Lancaster turret and doing operations, did that training, was that good enough, did that do the job to prepare you?
PN: Oh yes. Oh yes. Em and I used to keep very close watch on all those around me. I used to spin the turret around and make sure I saw, and I used to ask the skipper occasionally as we heard, to dip his wings down one way, or dip down the other way, so that I could search underneath the aircraft in case there was anything creeping up underneath. But eh that’s how you got on.
GT: And you had good coordination with the tail gunner? Did you talk a lot between you?
PN: We didn’t talk a lot but eh if occasionally em it was necessary to confer we used to. But we didn’t talk a lot really.
GT: And if you
PN: We were very good friends on the ground.
GT: Good yeah.
PN: Yes, we were very good friends on the ground [unclear] and myself were great pals on the ground.
GT: What was the radio talk like? Was it ‘skipper’, ‘rear gunner’, ‘mid upper’? You didn’t say your names did you?
PN: No, didn’t say your names but say, say your position. ‘Mid upper to skipper’, or something of that sort. And he would say, ‘Go ahead, go ahead mid upper’, and you would pass a message to him.
GT: And was, Hoot, Hoot was the flight sergeant em when you joined up together as a crew and then he was commissioned, so
PN: Yeah.
GT: So, so did the commissioning matter to you guys?
PN: No, not at all.
GT: You were a senior NCO and a, and a pilot officer or an officer.
PN: Yes, didn’t make, didn’t make any difference. He was still Hoot Gibson.
GT: But you couldn’t go and drink together in the same mess?
PN: Oh no, no, no. No. We had that, there was that difference. He was a commissioned officer after all. But it didn’t make that difference.
GT: And you were a flight sergeant at that time?
PN: Yes.
GT: Did you want your, did you want a commission as well?
PN: Ah yes I did, but eh but for some reason I didn’t go for it.
GT: You weren’t offered it?
PN: Yes. I can’t remember what exactly it was. [unclear] he was getting commissioned.
GT: As a tail gunner? Wow.
PN: Yes, he became commissioned. But I can’t remember just exactly the circumstances. He was like that later on he became commissioned.
GT: So, your time with 75, em and, and you thoroughly enjoyed?
PN: Oh yes. Oh yes. I was there until I done my, how I, how I had to do thirty one operations I don’t know but I did and I got posted away to, funnily enough, back to Dalcross where I’d done my training.
GT: Your training. So, so when you were posted, what did they say? ‘Right you’re off!’ No fanfare. Just
PN: Oh no.
GT: Called you into the office and said, ‘So right, you’re next, you’re leaving.’ Is that it?
PN: Oh yes. Yes. Just you posted. Yes.
GT: And that would be at the end of eh August?
PN: It would, yes, I think it would.
GT: Your last operation was August the 25th and that completed thirty one ops. You had a hundred and thirty six hours during the day and a hundred and twenty hours of night and em that’s a pretty, that’s a pretty great record there Peter. So your, your log book states that you moved on to Dalcross at 2 AGS and there you were flying in Martinets. [emphasis]
PN: Yes, that’s right.
GT: What were they [emphasis] like?
PN: [chuckles] They were a fighter aircraft, they were like a fighter aircraft as far as I was concerned. But we used to em, had to virtually em they had a real [unclear] of you might call cords really. Then we had to almost stretch out of the aircraft to thread through pulleys and fix them on to the drogue for other aircraft to shoot at.
GT: And so the Martinet was a drogue towing aircraft?
PN: That’s right. Yes.
GT: So you didn’t deploy the drogue until you were in the air?
PN: That’s right. And then you had to bend and you were half way out of the, of the aircraft hooking the drogue on.
GT: This was a hole in the floor of the aircraft?
PN: Yes. Yes.
GT: So how long was the hoars of the rope? Eh, the
PN: About eight hundred, eight hundred yards or something like that.
GT: Was that a safe, safe distance?
PN: Yeah. Safe enough. Yes. Safe enough. Yes.
GT: And what were the gunners and eh, of the aircraft taking the drogue?
PN: They, they did occasionally fire and hit the drogue towing aircraft thinking it was, thinking that was what they had to aim at.
GT: That’s friendly fire.
PN: Yeah. They, they used to do a quick dive away then, but eh mainly that was alright and you could tell in the drogue you could count up the bullet holes because the bullets had got paint under them of some sort. They were coloured.
GT: Did they have a fight over who, who was, what hole was [unclear] [chuckles]
PN: No, I don’t think so.
GT: All good. And therefore you went, that was in eh November?
PN: Yes.
GT: And so you had a little break in between leaving end of August, so you had September, October off?
PN: Yes.
GT: Where did, what did you do there? Did you, did you go back home for a bit?
PN: Eh, I went, I did, I was, I can’t remember exactly what I did.
GT: But you did have a bit of a rest though didn’t you?
PN: But em anyway, I made sure that eh I counted the months and eh while there was only four months and then I went back on the Squadron again.
GT: Aah. Okay, so, so that was 2 AGS at Dalcross and we’re still on the Martinet and Martinet right through to January and eh and in February you moved on to Number 2 GSU on Mitchells.
PN: That’s right. Yes.
GT: As an air gunner, so you were, you were ramping up on the B25.
PN: That’s right.
GT: Were you the mid upper gunner for there too?
PN: Rear gunner.
GT: Rear gunner on the B25.
PN: Rear gunner on the, yeah. And eh you didn’t have a seat to sit on, you sort of eh, virtually on your knees, half on your knees, half sat, sat on the sloping seat. Not a very comfortable position at all. And you had two point fives I think in the rear turret.
GT: Now, the point five was a little bit more heavier than the three nought threes.
PN: It was indeed.
GT: More punch and distance?
PN: Yes, and the you see what happened.
GT: Well now, obviously for the recording eh Peter had a bit of a close escape here, and I’m holding a fifty cal shell eh minus the head and eh there’s a big hole in the side of it. Peter, what happened to you there and this was in the rear turret of a B25, yeah?
PN: Yes, that’s right and it was quite, that, it was quite close to, the bomb was quite close to my shoulder and em the armourer, when we came back, I didn’t know about it, while we were airborne, but the armourer came to me and said, ‘Would you like this as a souvenir?’ and at that time it had a shrapnel inside of it and the, the bullet too. Em but unfortunately, while examining it, my son, the little bit of shrapnel that had caused the hole, put it in the dust, in the ashtray and it got lost. And eh so I don’t, I, I searched for the, I think it was about ten days afterwards that I found it was missing and I searched for the, that little bit of shrapnel, but I couldn’t find it, unfortunately.
GT: Well, it’s very fortunate, [emphasis] for you Peter, that you’ve been able to keep the shell and eh it also has an official RAF photograph tucked with it.
PN: And the [unclear] at the bottom end you notice that it hadn’t been fired.
GT: That’s true, yeah, yeah. The firing element at the base there’s eh, there’s no pin impression so that’s, that’s a special piece of history right there for you.
PN: Yes.
GT: Fabulous. Alright Peter, now, you, you’re suffering badly from eh, from your knees.
PN: Arthritis.
GT: And arthritis, but [emphasis] you were talking to me earlier about your kneeling position of a B25 rear gunner.
PN: Yes.
GT: And can you attribute your current problems with knees back to that?
PN: I wouldn’t be at all surprised. I wouldn’t be at all surprised because you were sort of half on your knees, half sitting on a sloping, a sloping seat.
GT: Gosh.
PN: And it could well have been that em that was the cause of the arthritis.
GT: Well you started flying B25s in March 45 and eh you completed more operations in, in the end of April. Now your trips here in your log book for your Mitchell flights are anywhere between one and, and one and two and three quarter hours. So you were flying from em 98 Squadron. Where were they based and, and where did you go from there for more ops?
PN: Now. 98. Yes, I, oh I can’t remember the dates. Is it not in the book? On top of the table? The places that we went to? I do know the name of the aerodrome but I can’t remember it.
GT: Farfield. So you, so your log book is very well presented, of course, and you’ve got a lot of trips there across to Bremen, em certainly into Germany em and beyond. So, so that’s very impressive. So during your, your flights in the Mitchells, did you have any opposition from the German em Luftwaffe?
PN: Em, we did, and eh I can’t remember the exact details, but we, we eh got flak, flak as much as anything. We had to dodge the flack because we’d got anti-aircraft fire bursting near us, a lot of anti-aircraft fire bursting near us.
GT: How many bombs did you carry?
PN: Eh, oh, I couldn’t say.
GT: It wasn’t a very big bomb load for a B25?
PN: Eh, no, about, about eight or eight or so five hundred pounders probably. I’m not quite sure.
GT: And this was an RAF squadron flying American aircraft?
PN: Second Tactical Aircraft, yes, Second tact.
GT: So what was it like flying an American designed aircraft compared to the English Stirling and Lancaster?
PN: Uncomfortable.
GT: Uncomfortable.
PN: Yeah. Uncomfortable.
GT: It didn’t go very –
PN: On you knees, you see. You were on your knees and the seat sloped and you had your bottom on the, on the seat, and you were half on your knees and eh it wasn’t a comfortable position, wasn’t a very comfortable position at all. But there you are, that was, that was hard luck. And em we did quite a, did quite a few to Bremen if I remember rightly, quite a few to eh yes, the city of Bremen and em they were quite lively, a lot of flak coming up.
GT: It must have been low level, was it?
PN: Em, not really low level.
GT: Oh, no? You were still up high?
PN: Still, still, yes, fairly high I think. I can’t quite remember these details now.
GT: And what was your crew like? For the B25s
PN: There was about five members of a crew in the B25s.
GT: All English?
PN: As far as I know, yes. Ah, yes I think so, yes. They were. Yes. I do mention their names.
GT: Now your, your last operation with eh 98 Squadron was the end of April and then you moved through as passengers in May and you, you began a second trip, tour in, in June as the rear gunner and eh also did some trips, through, as passengers to look over Germany and in July. So you certainly got around for a little bit after that.
PN: Yes.
GT: So tell us a bit more about the eh, okay, the –
PN: I was stationed in Germany.
GT: Ah, there you go. So VE Day, what happened with you on 98 Squadron on VE Day and what did you do after?
PN: So, yes, I remember VE day.
GT: You went to Germany after that was it, directly, or did you stay in England?
PN: [mumbles] Difficult to remember. I think I was, I think I was stationed in Germany at that time. I think, yes, I think, I can remember we were living in tents and all of a sudden the CO of that Squadron popped down and said, ‘It’s all over, chaps. It’s all over!’ and [unclear] drinking his own champagne. And didn’t invite us in at all. And that was the end of the war. And we were in Germany at that time, living in tents. Aachen [?] Yes.
GT: Did you stay on?
PN: We went to Brussels. We took, we took, we went by an aircraft. We took an aircraft into Brussels, but I didn’t think much to that. And eh visited a short time and we came back, back to Aachen [?] again, and stayed there. Didn’t think much to it. It was all over as far as we were concerned and that was it.
GT: So did you want to stay in the RAF? Or did you look at demobbing or?
PN: No, I was demobbed soon after and em I did various civilian jobs and eh basically I got sick of them and went back into the Airforce again after a fairly short time.
GT: As an air gunner?
PN: Yes, eh I was an air gunner instructor this time. I was instructing.
GT: And your log book says in 1951 you were at 230 OCU in Scampton?
PN: Yeah.
GT: In Scampton?
PN: Yes.
GT: As an air gunner exercise so em that was from February
PN: I was instructing then.
GT: And what aircraft were you with?
PN: I think Lincolns.
GT: Lincolns?
PN: I think Lincolns and then Shackletons and finally Neptunes. Yes.
GT: Yes, you have a lot of entries here from being in Lincolns. What was the Lincoln like compared to the Lancaster?
PN: Bigger. And that’s all, apart from that. [mumbles] Yes, they were bigger. A bigger version of the Lancaster.
GT: And the Lincolns had fifty cal? Half inch? Did the Lincolns have the bigger gun systems?
PN: As far as I know, yes, I think so.
GT: And you moved on from three nought threes. Yeah?
PN: Yes.
GT: And then you moved on to 9 Squadron at Binbrook?
PN: Yes, at Binbrook.
GT: And you become crew, you become part of a crew then, were you then? Is that what you were doing?
PN: I think so, I can’t remember. It’s difficult to remember. It’s a long time ago, as you know.
GT: No, that, that’s fine there, Peter. So we’re just moving through and eh you, you were em just working through on the Lincolns right through to 1952 and em with, with your changes you moved into Coastal Command?
PN: Yes, Shackletons. Oh, yes, low flying over the sea doing searches and things like that.
GT: What was the Shackleton like, as an aircraft to fly in?
PN: It was much, it was something like, something like a Lancaster but fatter. You know, it was a bigger, bigger fuselage than the other one. It was much like a, much like a Lincoln.
GT: Now what em, what caused you to finish up in the RAF then? You’d had enough again do you think or?
PN: Yes, yes I did instructing for a while. I was instructing on various subjects and then I came out, I think, I think, I came out and took, took my pension. To get a pension and em I came out and got a pension.
GT: Well, some of your last entries in your log book eh Peter, are at Kinloss em with, with Shacks and eh and then eh you’ve got a P2 Neptune entry here as well.
PN: Eh [mumbles]
GT: In mid 56.
PN: Yes, it was actually the islands, Benbecula for a while. That’s not even mentioned in there, I think, but I was [pauses] just at Benbecula for a while, which is one of the Outer Hebridean islands. But not for any reason.
GT: Yeah. So then you moved down to Singapore for a while. Tell me a, tell me a little bit about that, please, because that was in the mid, early sixties there when you went to Singapore.
PN: Ah yes. Yes.
GT: Was that with the RAF?
PN: Yes, oh yes. And em, Singapore. I think I had a crew there.
GT: And you were doing the administrative stuff? You were?
PN: Oh yes, I was doing admin as well, yes. Instructing em, instructing.
GT: And there was a [unclear]
PN: [unclear] yes. Um I think I was doing instructing as well as doing –
GT: And so that was after the confrontation eh had finished?
PN: More or less I think, yes. Instructing em discip. I was a flight sergeant discip there too. Yes. Various jobs yeah.
GT: Various jobs. Now, you, you were married and had children by then?
PN: Yes, I had been married, I got married in 1962, think it was 62 and unfortunately em my first wife died in 1969. She got breast cancer and she died in 1969. But see we had a tour in Singapore and she quite enjoyed that. So she did have some good life there.
GT: Nice. And you moved back to the UK then?
PN: And we came back in 1966 and then eh we were, she was ill for two or three years and she died in 1969.
GT: No children?
PN: No children. Well, previously we had had four, four sons but long before you know and the eldest which is the one who’s birthday it is today, they were born 50, he was born in 54, 1954 and the last one was born in 1958. Yeah.
GT: Pretty tough to lose their mum a little bit later. And so then you, you remarried later?
PN: Yes. Two or three years afterwards. Yes.
GT: And so, you, you’ve lost two em
PN: And I’ve lost her too.
GT: Several years ago.
PN: Yes.
GT: And, and what did you do after the RAF, Peter? How did, how did that go?
PN: Em I did do, em, what did I do? I engraved [?] a house, do something, engraved [?] a house. I forget now. I forget
GT: Peter, you’ve, you’ve got a lot of memories here and a lot of archives from your time
PN: Yeah.
GT: Especially with Bomber Command.
PN: Yes.
GT: And that’s pretty special. And eh now I’ve known you for some years now and popped in to see you from my trips from New Zealand here to the UK so I’m eh, I’m quite honoured today really to sit and chat with you about your [emphasis] Bomber Command time and your life, a bit of history. This recording will go to the Bomber Command archives and eh and I know that they will gratefully receive your information and your recollections and memories.
PN: Sketchy as they are.
GT: Sketchy as they are. No problem at all, no problem for us, Peter. Is there something that you would like to make one last comment about Bomber Command? Your time, the war, that had to be done, that could have been done any different?
PN: I don’t think so. I was very lucky to have eh, to have a skipper, Hoot Gibson. He was a great, a great pal and a great flyer [coughs]. And we got on very well with him, and the crew for that matter. It was very unfortunate that the navigator, Bill [unclear] unfortunately, he was in a hurry to get home to New Zealand, chose to hitchhike with an American crew, which crashed.
GT: Wrong, wrong choice.
PN: Killing them all. Yes, killing them all. Unfortunately.
GT: Peter, look em I think it’s fabulous of you to be able to sit with me today. Thank you for this interview and it’s been a pleasure being in your company and presence in your house today and I’m gonna say thank you from the IBCC for your recollections. And eh I think we, we can close the interview now if that’s okay with you.
PN: I think so, yes. Sketchy as it might be in places. You’ll have to pick out the bits and pieces. Of course, I mean I’m ninety, getting on for ninety four and memory does tend to get a little bit sketchy at times at that age. But I’ve done my best. Tried to remember the best I can.
GT: Thank you for your service to your King, your country and now your Queen. It is much appreciated. Thank you.
PN: Okay. Good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Rowland Ruthven Neech. Two
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANeechPRR180705, PNeechPRR1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:08:10 audio recording
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Description
An account of the resource
Peter was born on the 7th of January 1925, in West Hampstead, London. He worked in a jewellers in Hammersmith and left his job to join the air cadets at RAF Hendon from 1941 to 1943. On his eighteenth birthday, he joined the RAF to begin training as an air gunner, this took him to RAF Dalcross, Scotland, where he completed his training in July 1943. On arriving home on leave, he found his family home damaged after a German bombing attack. In December 1943, Peter trained on Wellingtons and Stirlings at No.11 Operational Training Unit, RAF Westcott, where he was picked to join 75 Squadron, as a mid-upper gunner by Sergeant Donald George ‘Hoot’ Gibson. After flying Stirlings for his first month, the crew trained for Lancasters at 1651 Conversion Unit, 75 Squadron then moved to RAF Mepal, and in April 1944 they converted to Lancasters. Peter completed thirty-one operations with 75 Squadron. In August, he returned to RAF Dalcross, to fly in Martinets which towed targets for aircraft practice. After taking a short break, he joined 98 Squadron in March 1945, and flew B-25’s as a rear gunner until VE Day. He took part in gardening operations, which involved low flying to drop sea mines on estuaries in France to prevent U-Boat attacks. Towards the end of the war, Peter shot down a Ju 88, after it came too close, his only claimed kill of the war. Peter continued his flying career with the RAF post-war, as an air gunner with Lincolns, Lancasters, and Shakletons, and then joined Coastal Command at RAF Benbecula until he retired in 1956. In the 1960s, Peter moved to Singapore to be an instructor, married in 1962, but his wife passed away in 1969 and he remarried a few years later.
Contributor
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Jennie Mitchell
Tricia Marshall
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
11 OTU
1651 HCU
1657 HCU
75 Squadron
98 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-25
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lincoln
Martinet
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
RAF Dalcross
RAF Mepal
RAF Westcott
searchlight
Shackleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1039/11412/AMulhallJE180703.2.mp3
85d2a28ea5d8fdd9060e2bf78191b491
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mulhall, James
James Edward Mulhall
J E Mulhall
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with James Mulhall (b. 1924, 224223 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 75 Squadron before becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mulhall, JE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: This is Tuesday the 3rd of July 2018 and I am at the home of Mr James Edward Mulhall, known as Jim. Born 8th July 1924 in Gorton, Manchester, England. Jim joined the RAF at the age of eighteen as an ACHGD mechanic. Later qualifying as a flight engineer serving on 75 New Zealand Squadron Lancasters from Mepal, Cambridgeshire. Jim, thank you for letting me interview you for the IBCC archives. So, please tell me why you joined the RAF and where you did your training.
JM: Yeah. The reason I joined the RAF was I got fed up of being bombed by the Germans. Being blown out of bed on a regular basis. So I decided to get a little bit of my own back and I joined up at Dover Street in Manchester and did my initial training at Padgate.
GT: And you joined up to, to be a pilot or gunner or what was it?
JM: I originally intended to qualify as a pilot and I joined the PNB course. Pilot/navigator/bomb aimer. But my maths weren’t good enough to qualify as a pilot so I was offered the alternative as becoming a flight engineer. And this I accepted and trained at St Athans, in South Wales.
GT: How long was your training for, Jim?
JM: About three months.
GT: And what aircraft did you train on for that?
JM: I trained on Stirlings to begin with which I didn’t like. I thought it was underpowered and overweight. And then I got re-mustered because of the losses to Lancasters which I enjoyed very much. But as I’ve mentioned previously going from a four cylinder, fourteen cylinder radial air cooled engines to twelve cylinder liquid cooled engines, the Merlins, was a bit of a leap for me considering I only had a fortnight to qualify in this direction. And I was a bit peeved because I was genning up on night on the various different systems while my mates were out boozing. So, I didn’t take kindly to this. However we got along eventually.
GT: So, from, from your training at St Athan did you move to satellite airfields before you joined a crew?
JM: Yes. Satellite. Stradishall was one. And Feltwell was the other one. And we did the various training at these two stages on Lancasters.
GT: So, how long did that take? Months? A year?
JM: Oh no. As I said before it only took a fortnight to qualify as Lancaster crew. That’s the only time we had.
GT: No. But let’s, let’s go back to before you joined your crews though, Jim because you were still doing your training by yourself or with other flight engineers were you?
JM: Oh, they were trained, all flight engineers at St Athan.
GT: Yeah.
JM: And when it came to crewing up they pushed all the previous aircrew, who had been together on Wellingtons I might add. Five of them knew each other very well through training on Wellingtons and this, but they all sat down and they shoved, I don’t know, about eighty. Oh not quite that number. Let’s get this nearer to the fact. About twenty. Twenty or thirty flight engineers in to the big cinema with them and said quite briefly, ‘Go and find yourself a crew.’ And that was a bit disconcerting because we’d got all these pudding faces looking at us wondering whether, what kind of a bloke is this that’s going to hoist himself on to us?
GT: Yeah.
JM: So, I went up to one of them, Hugh Rees and I said, ‘Do you fancy an engineer?’ He said, ‘What’s your name?’ I said, ‘James.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘What’s your name?’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘Jim. He said, ‘I’m Hugh. This is Westie. This is Ray. So that was it. We joined up as a crew. Yeah. Most haphazard in its way.
GT: Yeah.
JM: But none the less it worked. Yeah.
GT: So, so from the time you joined to that time you joined a crew how long was that? A couple of years? A year?
JM: About a year. Yeah. About a year. I did the Padgate training at Skegness. The square bashing as they called it and we did about a fortnight in Blackpool. In November would you believe. No place Blackpool in November believe me. Its, particularly doing PT at 6 o’clock in the morning in shorts and pumps. Not very kindly to the torso at all. So, that, that was briefly the square bashing bit.
GT: So, when you trained as a flight engineer on Stirlings did they have a flight engineer position initially?
JM: Yes. Halfway down the aircraft was the flight engineer’s position. But as I said that’s why I lost, when I lost an engine. For the first, for the first six circuits and bumps we had screens. A screened navigator, a screened pilot and a screened engineer. But they left us and the first flight we did circuits and bumps I lost an engine would you believe. I could see the cylinder head’s temperatures going down. And the oil pressure disappearing so I knew the engine was u/s. I called up the pilot. I said, ‘Feather number two,’ and he said, ‘Feathering two. Why?’ I said, ‘The CHT’s going down. I’ve no oil pressure. The engines u/s.’ So, he said, ‘Right. Nobby, call up base. We want an emergency landing on three.’ He greased it and he made a beautiful landing on three and said to me afterwards, ‘I always wanted to do that.’ [laughs]
GT: What station was that on?
JM: Stradishall.
GT: And that’s where you were doing your —
JM: Circuits and bumps.
GT: The whole crew converted there.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Into four engines.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Wow.
JM: That’s in Feltwell. We got a fortnight at Feltwell to convert to Merlins and different energy systems for the undercarriage and flaps. And so for flying controls. Aye.
GT: So, had you done any operations on Stirlings before that?
JM: No.
GT: No.
JM: No. I never did any.
GT: So, the Lancaster finishing school at Feltwell was your first touch of a, of a Lancaster.
JM: Yes. We then, we were sent to Mepal to start our operational debut as you might say.
GT: On 75 New Zealand Squadron. RAF.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. So, what, when you got to Mepal was, was the squadron known by any nicknames or was there —
JM: No. We learned later that we got all the mucky jobs that’s for sure. We were known as a chop squadron. But I expect that identification was made among many other squadrons for the same reason.
GT: 75 New Zealand certainly had a reputation of, of being assigned a lot of tricky and dangerous targets.
JM: Yeah.
GT: And the chop squadron was certainly well known back in to 1943 with Stirlings. So, so for you to hear that nickname, carry on and you joined the squadron. Well, for that matter, yes — when did you join the squadron? What month? Date?
JM: May. May in 1944. But we didn’t start operating until August. Incidentally, it might be worthwhile recording that we did fly in different aircraft. And we had one aircraft, I think it was the captain’s aircraft of D flight and it had a caption on the front of a scantily clad young maiden astride a bomb. And underneath it said, “She drops them at night,” [laughs] Make your own conclusions.
GT: I’ve seen some fabulous nose art and that sounds like another one to add to that list.
JM: The ground crew did the nose arts of course.
GT: Fabulous. So, your crew. You’ve, you’ve mentioned to me that your mid-upper gunner Ray Alderson he was quite old and had quite an attribute. What —
JM: He, he was thirty err he was forty two years old when he should have been at the limit — thirty five. And once we were routed over Denmark at night and he said — ‘Will you bank,’ left, ‘Bank right,’ rather, ‘Right and left. I can see something moving down on the ground.’ And we were around about eight thousand feet.
[recording paused]
JM: The mid-upper asked the pilot to bank to the right because he’d seen something down below. And bear in mind we’re at about eight thousand feet now but he says he saw some lights travelling along a runway and he’s not sure what it was. But as it happened he followed this, managed to follow this aircraft because it had its nav lights on. It was rising up beside us and he said to the rear gunner, ‘Let me have the first squirt Charlie because it’s my, my thing to see here.’ He said, ‘I’ll open up first and you open up next.’ So, this was done and we imagine that the pilot was looking for our exhaust flames. He’d be looking upwards looking for the blue exhaust flames while he was being vectored on to us. So, he didn’t see us only a hundred yards or so at the side of him. Fifty, a hundred yards or so and so they both had a good squirt at him and he fell away but we don’t know what happened to him. We could only claim it as a probable. But that was how good the mid-upper’s eyesight was.
GT: And he was never contested as to being over forty years of age.
JM: No. He always said he was thirty five. The lying swine [laughs] he was the best spiv I ever saw as well. He’d start off with a pair of dirty socks on a Monday. He’d finish up with a bike on a Saturday that he sold to a farmer for four pound ten. That’s not bad spivving is it? He never, he never ate in the canteen. He always ate, ate in the guardhouse because he was always bringing in bacon and eggs from the farms around about that he knew so well. So, he always had a fry up in the guardhouse. He never ate with us in the cookhouse. Or I can’t remember it. Oh at breakfast. Yeah. After flight breakfast. Pre-flight breakfast he had with us because he was, he had to because we were silence from the aerodrome. All outward communication ceased.
GT: Right.
JM: Before an op.
GT: So, your, your skipper, Hubert Rees. He did a dicky trip for you.
JM: He did.
GT: As it were.
JM: To Havre. No. Nazaire. I got it wrong. I said Le Havre at first. The sub, U-boat pens at Nazaire. Yeah. That’s when the bomb aimer got a bit excited. Yeah.
GT: So, was he always one up for the whole crew. Doing a dicky trip? Did he have always —
JM: He must have been, yeah. Must have been one up on his log book. Yeah. But for some reason or other because he did that he was never entered in our logbooks. So, although we did — Mepal have us down as I’d done thirty four but there’s only thirty three logged. As you found out for yourself.
GT: That’s right. So, you, you completed thirty three.
JM: And a half.
GT: Yeah. We’ll get to that. Right. So, now one of the things you’re talking about was your bomb, nicknamed Westie. And on your first op something happened when you were coming in to the run that you’ve told me. Can you tell me what Westie didn’t see it?
JM: You want me to repeat that?
GT: I do.
JM: It’s a bit dodgy.
GT: I do. Go on [laughs]
JM: It’s as I say we were down under radar for flying close to the sea until we climbed for bombing height for penetration on the pens. And being the third wave in the sky was black with previous ack-ack puffs. Even the birds were flying. They were so close together they frightened the life out of us. And Westie was equally concerned. And when he climbed up to bombing height we had a burst fairly close to the nose but the fragments whip upwards so that’s not really dangerous to the aeroplane. But looking in to the bomb pit I could see Westie crouched over his bomb pit, bombsight and I saw him leap back and shout, ‘F’ing hell, we’ll get killed doing this.’ So [laughs] and we looked at each other over our oxygen masks. The pilot and I could see we were laughing. We had a bit of light relief over the run. So, that took place. That’s really true that is. Yeah.
GT: But you finished the op ok.
JM: Oh yeah. But we could see flames going down either side of us and oh, it was a tricky business really because they were well defended these U-boat pens as you can well imagine. The eighty eight millimetre guns could catch you up to forty thousand feet.
GT: What was your normal bombing height that you would —
JM: Around about twenty two thousand. Yeah. Because we carried and eighteen thousand pound bomb load and a four thousand pound Cookie needs six thousand clearance to get out of the blast. So, we were usually between eighteen and twenty two thousand we’d bomb. On normal targets.
GT: Was your four thousand pound HC Cookie, was that your largest bomb that the squadron used?
JM: Yes. Yeah. We used to use a four thousand pound Cookie, twelve thousand pounders and four cannisters of incendiaries. That was a normal bomb load for a short trip. If we went to Stettin or somewhere like that we’d have to carry more fuel because that was a nine and a half hour trip. So we’d have to reduce the bomb load, the stores as they called it to allow for more fuel.
GT: So, as a crew did you go and check the bomb load before you flew? Or you —
JM: I did. I checked it to make sure all the pins were in the right position for fusing when we crossed the enemy coast.
GT: So, that was the flight engineer’s role. Not the bomb aimers.
JM: Well, he did it as well but it was one of my checks as well. He did it to make sure the Mickey Mouse was clean. Clued up.
GT: So, who —
JM: That was the selector box. The Mickey Mouse.
GT: Ah. So, the selector box was on your panel.
JM: No. It was on his panel in the bomb pit. I had a jettison button on my combing and the pilots. In case he didn’t make it for any reason. I could open the bomb doors and jettison the bomb.
GT: Could you see your bomb load?
JM: No.
GT: From the cockpit.
JM: He could. He had a peep hole in the bulk head because we had a hang up once and I had to get rid of the hang up. Get rid of the carrier as well as the bomb. So that was a bit of a job trying to chisel that out of the way but we got rid of it eventually.
GT: So, you moved down through the fuselage and could —
JM: Yeah. To get rid of the carrier. Yeah. It was in the forward edge of the bomb bay. I didn’t have far to go and I was on an oxygen bottle.
GT: Now, for those that are listening that don’t understand what a carrier is it is the British call them carriers the Americans call them racks.
JM: Yeah.
GT: And they are what is bolted to the air frame that the bomb is then latched to and in this case most World War One err World War Two bombs had a single lug.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Lugged. And they were single hooked.
JM: Yeah.
GT: And they were electro, electro-magnetic or electro magnetically —
JM: Fused.
GT: Armed or fused.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. So —
JM: A fusing pin came forward and it was selected in the Mickey Mouse.
GT: So, can you describe then the way the bombs were fused?
JM: There’s a little wire ring piece in the front of the bomb and a needle when it’s selected on the Mickey Mouse in the bomb bay a needle comes forward and fits inside that loop on the wire on the bomb. So that when the bomb falls away that wire is pulled out by that pin. So then the bomb is fused.
GT: And the bomb is only fused once it falls from the aircraft and that wire’s pulled out.
JM: Correct.
GT: So, can the bomb be dropped without the wire being pulled through? In other words can it be dropped safe? Can the, the flight engineer or the bomb aimer drop his load?
JM: The bomb aimer can pre, can re-select to pull the needle back but there would be no guarantee that it didn’t get tangled up in the loop. So you wouldn’t know really whether they were fused or not. Sometimes we had to, if we had an abortive trip we’d have to drop the stores as they called them, the bombs, in the North Sea. And they tried to make sure they weren’t fused but there was no guarantee of this.
GT: So, the Lancaster could not land back at base with a full stores load.
JM: That’s right. We could take off at sixty eight thousand pound. That’s about thirty four tonne. But we had to get down to fifty six thousand pound to land. Otherwise we’d stress the undercarriage too greatly. It would bottom out and probably destroy the aircraft.
GT: Was there any cases where aircraft came back in with a heavy load at all?
JM: No. No. We never landed with a heavy load. No. The — when we were hit by the incendiaries I had to make a decision as to whether the undercarriage was locked down. And I came to the conclusion by listening to the reservoir tank that the same amount of fluid was going back in the reservoir tank just behind the pilot as was being taken out to lower the undercarriage. And after several occasions of this I came to the conclusion although I had no undercarriage lights, red or green and I decided that we could land at base with a reasonable chance of success. Which we did. And we did succeed.
GT: That’s without the undercarriage collapsing once you hit the ground.
JM: That’s right.
GT: That’s what you were trying to avoid.
JM: It didn’t collapse.
GT: Yeah.
JM: I made the right decision fortunately.
GT: Fabulous. Well, let’s go back to the reason why you made that decision. And you said incendiaries. So, you’re saying that the incendiaries were dropped from an aircraft above and went and hit your aircraft.
JM: It did.
GT: Can you tell me a bit about that please?
JM: The aircraft was shook about a bit and my instrument panel on the side of the aircraft, on the starboard side was knocked off its hinges and off its retainers. And the bottom plug down on the floor that carried all the communications that was hit and slid back. But fortunately I was able to get, to find the threads on that and screw it back in to complete the communication so we had intercom and instrument recordings as well. And the incendiaries were only, saved us because they were pinned in by being frozen at the height we were at. So, they didn’t trigger the incendiaries when they hit us. One, in fact hit us in the joint between the rudder and tail plane. Right in that joint there. Which was a bit dodgy really because any severe manoeuvres might have lost the tail, lost the rudder there.
GT: So, the incendiaries would have, would have exploded normally within the aircraft if it hit the aircraft or only if it had hit the ground?
JM: Yeah. They would have exploded in the aircraft if the pins hadn’t been frozen in. So, we were very lucky in that respect.
GT: And when you got back to Mepal did they come and take the flare, the incendiaries out of the aircraft gingerly or —
JM: Very very gingerly. We handed them through the door to the ground crew and told them that the pins were open, ‘Don’t drop them or they’ll go off. They’re magnesium flares.’ Yeah.
GT: Well, the armourers would have loaded them so the armourers would have taken them away I’m sure.
JM: Well, no. Only the ground crew. The armourers kept well away. They knew what might happen. They triggered off. No, no messing.
GT: I can’t believe, Jim the armourers would scarper [laughs]
JM: Well, you, [laughs] you were in charge of them weren’t you? But they stayed well away I can assure you. They knew it was far more dangerous than the ground crew did.
GT: Classic. Now, was there any time that your gunners, other that what you briefly mentioned did they have a chance to shoot at anything other than that one other time they claimed half each? Was there any other?
JM: No. The 109 we shot at was the only time the gunners opened up as I can remember. They did open up sometimes on the ground targets if we were going low over the, over France. And they could open, they could open up over convoys that they knew were enemy because of where they were located.
GT: Did they ever use the front guns?
JM: No.
GT: On the Lancaster.
JM: No. Westie never used the front guns.
GT: So the bomb aimer’s —
JM: Not to my knowledge.
GT: The bomb aimer’s role was also to mix in as an air gunner.
JM: Yeah.
GT: And he was trained as such.
JM: He was, well I assume he was anyway. He knew what he was doing. Yeah. My skipper wanted to play with them but the back ones. When I was playing with the aircraft he was playing with Ray’s gun err Alan’s guns. Enjoying himself I understand.
GT: Jim, did you ever do any flying of your own? On the squadron or in the aircraft?
JM: No. No. Never. The first flying I ever did was in a Stirling.
GT: But Hubert’s, did Hubert let you take the controls at all when you were in the crew?
JM: Oh yes. On several occasions. He would. Particularly if he’d had damage and was on an air test. We were supposed to do an air test two and a half hours and always climb to height to test the oxygen. But we never did climb to height. We could test it at low level just as well as at upper level. So he would then dump me in the seat. On his parachute I might add. I’m sat on his ‘chute and harness. If that isn’t confidence I don’t know what is. While he wandered around the aircraft trying other people’s jobs. Aye. And I’m stuck with it. Sat up front with thirty two ton of aeroplane to play with.
GT: Did you write up your hours?
JM: No [laughs] did I heck. No. I don’t. I don’t. I think it was frowned upon by CM. That was the publication that was issued to all aircrew as you’re well aware. So, no I did [pause] I must have totalled perhaps two or [pause] two or three hours at the controls I would say overall. Yeah. At half hour intervals or perhaps an hour at one time. But it got to the stage where the navigator used to say, ‘Whoever’s in the pilot’s seat will you turn on to,’ such and such a course. And I’d say, ‘Turning now,’ and watch the DR read off and say, ‘On course now. Thank you.’
GT: So, did you do any link trainer stuff?
JM: I did ninety hours link would you believe? The pilot had only done five hours. That’s when it came about. When the pilot said, ‘You’re going to earn your corn from here on in. You can fly the damned thing while I have a wander about.’ Which I did on several occasions amounting to perhaps two or three hours total in flight. Possibly about four altogether. So, I was in charge of the aircraft for that particular time on those particular days. Never on ops I might add. Only when we had an air test to do or testing new equipment. That was the only time I flew it. But I enjoyed it I must admit. It was a bit slow in input and recovery but very stable. A very stable aeroplane. Yeah.
GT: So, did you record your link hours in your logbook?
JM: No. No. I don’t know why but [pause] I’m not quite sure about that. I might have done. I might have done.
GT: So —
JM: I can’t remember now whether I did or I didn’t. I probably did.
GT: So, tell me about your logbook then.
JM: I probably did. Yeah.
GT: Tell me about your logbook then because that’s something of interest that I’ve heard from different stories that, from different folk that have said that they were destroyed. So how about your logbook?
JM: Well, as I said before that I was at Fenchurch. We landed at Cosford from Germany. Well, from Bristol actually. We flew from Leipzig to Brussels and Brussels to Cosford. To land at Cosford. And what was your original question? I’ve forgotten in my —
GT: Ok. So, let’s, let’s go back one because your, your flights. You managed to do how many ops?
JM: Thirty three and a half. We didn’t finish the thirty fourth.
GT: And what —
JM: We only got half way in.
GT: Please tell me about your thirty fourth op.
JM: That was George Howe work we were doing. We were supposed to pick up a yellow tailed, a Lancaster who had the Oboe equipment on to do this so called George Howe carpet bombing. But we didn’t manage to do this and we were told that we had to get in to the box at the back for fighter protection if we didn’t manage to pick up a yellow tailed aircraft. So we finished up in the box. And we were finally nailed by predicted flak on the run in for the bomb run. As I said before it’s fairly easy to dodge it. If the first burst doesn’t get you you’ve got between five and seven seconds according to your height to dodge it and be privileged to see where it would burst where you should have been but you’ve moved the aircraft so you’re not there any longer. And it’s quite a privilege to see it burst somewhere else. But unfortunately we didn’t outfly it and eventually it caught up with us and blew half the tail away.
GT: And the skipper couldn’t control it. You had to abandon ship.
JM: No. The navigator said, ‘Turn on to 270.’ But in turning he only had aileron control because he had no elevator or rudder control due to half the tail plane being shot away. But when you turn on ailerons the nose begins to drop off. You’re supposed to ease the stick back because one wing loses lift more than the other. And as it started to dive he said, ‘You’ll have,’ [laughs] We did a lot of parachute bailout, bailout business but Hugh just said, ‘You’ll have to get out lads.’ And so we did. I was the last out by the skipper. I had to watch the wireless op, Nesbitt, the hundredth operation man go past me and Ray. And the two gunners went out the back door. So I was the last out by the skipper. And I just reached for my, my parachute was in a rack behind his seat so I had to undo the bungees, put it on the clips, kneel on the hatch, take my helmet and oxygen mask and everything else off my head so that it didn’t strangle me when I went out. Get hold of the D ring and dive out. And that was goodbye. Cheers. Thirty four tons of junk swept away.
GT: And the aircraft was flat and level or was it sunk in a spin?
JM: No. It was in a shallow dive which made the skipper very difficult to get out because he went out the top hatch. And he told me later on at Dulag Luft all his fingernails were bloodied where he was trying to pull himself out against the slipstream which must have been about three hundred miles an hour by then because the aircraft is in a more or less vertical dive by that time. Yeah. So —
GT: And you all had good ‘chutes.
JM: Yes. Aye. All the ‘chutes opened, fortunately. I blacked out in fact. I’d been off oxygen so long that I was twisted and I got hold of the shrouds to untwist and blacked out through lack of oxygen. Anoxia. And I didn’t come to until I was a few feet above a pile of rubble in the centre of Hom with the Wehrmacht waiting for me to unzip all my clothing, pinch me watch and pinch me cigarettes. They didn’t pinch the cigarette case. They put that back in me battledress pocket but pinched my fags. And my watch. The swines. So, somebody got a good watch. My mother bought that as well for me when I started flying. Out of very meagre funds. Yeah.
GT: So when you were captured then did they, all your crew landed about the same area. Did you join up together?
JM: I understood later on at Dulag Luft we were all picked up within twenty four hours of each other. So, they knew where we were coming down. Don’t forget this is daylight and there would, there would be a Wehrmacht reception committee for everybody that came down. They’d have no chance at all of escaping. Or even do anything for themselves. They took these two. They were in a way they were they were a good thing to happen because civilians weren’t very pleased with us for obvious reasons. They used to call us terror flyers. Overlooking the fact that their flyers did the same thing to us years before. So, however that’s that was by the way. They took me to a police station and locked me in an underground cell. Took me boots off me and all. I were, I’m in bare feet. Well, just socks on. Took me boots off. They were flying boots that you could cut the top off you know and put it around you to keep warm. Yeah. They took those off me. I had to sleep in bare feet on bare boards in a prison cell in a place called Hom. So I understand. Yeah. The next morning the — I didn’t get, didn’t get anything to eat or drink either. I was pretty parched. The next morning they took me upstairs to be interviewed by the sergeant of police there. I forget what his title was but he started the proceedings by unholstering his luger, pointedly pushing the safety catch off — and I’ve fired a luger, I know what a hare trigger it is. And he placed the pistol down with the barrel pointing at me and then started to interrogate me. But between his German and my English we didn’t get very far so he gave it up as a bad job. Put the damned thing back where it belonged. But it was a bit unnerving for a lad of nineteen or so. Twenty. Yeah. To be faced with this. Yeah. I didn’t enjoy it I must admit.
GT: But he was Wehrmacht or SS?
JM: Oh, he was Wehrmacht. We only had one brief brush with the SS when they were fleeing from the — when we were on the march the Russians were only about five or six miles behind us all the way. And the SS were trying to escape them in ordinary saloon staff cars and one got stuck near us. And the two of them came out waving lugers, ‘Help get us out of the ditch.’ You know. We just walked past them. Bugger them. Let them get themselves out. They did eventually and drove on. But that’s the only brush — oh. They mounted a machine gun on one of the goon towers at Stalag, at Luckenwalde. And a Spandau machine gun on one of the goon towers and aimed it at the compound. But for some reason or other they didn’t open fire or else they’d have nailed a lot of us with that thing before we could get in to the huts or get behind anything. But they didn’t open fire. They packed up again and left. So that was a strange brush with the SS. But we saw them quite clearly. And the Spandau.
GT: So what prison camps were you taken to? Put in.
JM: The Stalag Luft 7B in Upper Silesia. Bankau, Poland. And then after the march we finished up at Luckenwalde. Thirty kilometres, kilometres south of Berlin. In fact at one stage the Russians and the Germans were swapping shells over the camp. Because we were only a couple of miles apart. One landed in the compound but it didn’t explode funnily enough. We had to roll it to the edge of [laughs] where the tripwire was. Up against the wire. We managed to get out of the, get it out of the gate.
GT: So how many of you —
JM: It was a five hundred pounder.
GT: How many of you were in the camp? How many were in the camp?
JM: Two thousand.
GT: And were you all RAF? USAF?
JM: Yes. I think there was a dotting of Americans and Naval personnel. But very few in number. Only perhaps fifty or so amongst our odd two thousand.
GT: So, most of you were RAF Bomber Command.
JM: Yes.
GT: Or Fighter Command.
JM: Or Fighter Command. Yeah. But aircrew anyway. The officers went to an Oflag so we didn’t see three of them after Dulag Luft. After interrogation camp at Dulag Luft. We didn’t see them anymore. They went to an Oflag. I don’t know where. Because they were commissioned officers.
GT: What was the conditions like?
JM: A bit rough. The food was the main topic of conversation. It’s usually sex or, sex or religion. But at prison camp it was food. All we thought about was food, food, food. We used to get something called sauerkraut which was some kind of cabbage in red vinegar. Disgusting stuff but it was edible. Just. And we had another thing called beetle soup which was supposed to be pea soup but inside every pea was a little beetle and we used to split open a pea and get the beetle out and put them down on the table. And we’d perhaps have a dozen or so little tiny beetles and then we’d eat the peas in the pea soup. Yeah. It’s true that. You couldn’t write that in fiction and get away with it but It’s true. Yeah. So, bread. We had to have a small like a Hovis loaf. Like a small Hovis and you had to divide it between eight men and you used to take turns at doing this in the hut between the eight of us because you got the last slice. And it would obviously be the smallest one so we had to take turns cutting the bread [laughs] How about that?
GT: No Red Cross parcels?
JM: Oh, we did get — what did we get? One. We got, in fact the SBO the Senior British Officer was in touch with one of the Red Cross officials. He had freedom to move about in Germany this fella. He had his own car. And he would advise the Senior British Officer, SBO that there was two wagons of Red Cross parcels in the sidings down outside the camp. But we only ever got one. The Germans used to pinch them and you couldn’t blame them. They were starving as much as were.
GT: Yeah.
JM: But we only got one Red Cross, Red Cross parcel between two of us. The only time I ever got a Red Cross parcel I must admit. It was very welcome. Klim milk and all sorts of things. Cigarettes. And dates would you believe. I got used to eating dates because they were very nutritious and they used to get the saliva going in your mouth. And I used to get used to eating dates. Ridiculous isn’t it? Yeah. I wouldn’t touch them in Civvy Street with a bargepole, with a sanitary inspector on the end.
GT: Was there any attempts at escaping from the Stalag that you were in?
JM: The [pause] we managed to get permission to have a sports field outside the camp. Down a little, on a little lower place so we could play football. We couldn’t do it inside the camp because of the trip wire near the goon boxes. You couldn’t get near that or else you’d get shot. That was about twenty yards inside the main wire. So we got this privilege. I think it was twice a week. And somebody managed to get a pole vault. Vault equipment in several different pieces and secreted it down on to this field. Unbeknown to the rest of us I might add. Only those in the know around about him that helped him to carry these different sections of the pole vault. And when he got down on the field the sentries patrolled outside the field to give us freedom to play football and so forth. And he put this thing together, took a run at the fence that surrounded the field, pole vaulted over the fence and I understand later on — to freedom. In to Switzerland. How about that? You couldn’t write that in fiction and get away with it, could you? But he pole vaulted over the wire. And I understand later on he got to Sweden. Yeah. Incredible isn’t it?
GT: Outstanding. So —
JM: I don’t even know what happened to the pole vault. Must have left it there.
GT: So, it was nothing like Hogan’s Heroes on television then. Yeah?
JM: Oh dear. He was, he was a real hero he was. Take my hat off to him. Yeah.
GT: Yes. Certainly.
JM: He made it.
GT: Now, one thing that before you were shot down on one of your ops you mentioned to me earlier that you might have had, you might have been shot at yourself. Your aircraft.
JM: Oh yes. We saw tracer one night. And we didn’t reply to it because we didn’t see anything to shoot at. Our gunners didn’t. We just saw the tracer coming towards us. But the following morning the ground crew showed us in the, the tail wheel has deeper slots on it on either side to stop it shimmying. And these slots were about three inches wide and about an inch deep and they showed us they’d dug out a 303 slug from this ridge. So, we were under friendly fire unbeknown to us because this was quite definitely a 303 slug out of a Browning machine gun.
GT: From above or below?
JM: Above.
GT: Better than the tail.
JM: It was firing down. Missed us completely. Must have been a rotten gunner.
GT: Day or night?
JM: Fortunately.
GT: Day or night?
JM: Oh, it was night time because we could see, saw the tracer. At night. Yeah. Very unfriendly fire. Yeah. It didn’t hit anything else fortunately. Or we didn’t see anything.
GT: So, prisoner of war and you knew that the allies were coming from one side and —
JM: And the Russians from another.
GT: So, what did the Germans —
JM: The borderline was the River Elbe.
GT: Ok. So what did the Germans do when they knew that their time was come and they — there’s much been talked of the forced march. Can you tell us a bit about that?
JM: They, well as I said before it was two hundred and ninety seven kilometres in twenty one days in the worst winter Poland had on record at that time. It really — you couldn’t see anything but snow. The only indication of the road were the telephone wires running alongside the wire. And that’s the only difference between the fields and the road. We were trudging along in snow all the time. We did the last fifty kilometres in a cattle truck. It was for six horses or forty men so you can imagine the crowding in that. The — we were bombed incidentally while in a siding. The Germans used to use a system of stacking. Wherever an engine was going if trucks were going the same they used to attach it to that engine and it would continue its journey with the various trucks it was supposed to take to different camps. And we were in a siding once when the Yanks bombed us. We knew it was the Yanks because of the size of the explosives. And it lifted our truck off the rails and we had to get [laughs] the Germans and all of us to hook it back on to the rails using a sleeper to get it back on to the rails so we could get attached to a train to pull us out of there later on. Imagine German guards and POW trying to get this cattle truck back on the rail. It was so crowded that we used to, half of us used to stand while the others stretched out a bit. You know. And take a twenty minute interval. They’d get up and we’d stretch out a bit because otherwise standing was a bit too much for us, you know on starvation diets. Yeah. They had one little trick. We had a can for urinating in. And there was a breather opening high up on the top side of the cattle truck and we used to fill this thing up between us and wait until we thought one of the guards was going past outside and hurtle this fluid out through the gap. We got one once. He started banging on the side with his butt of his rifle, you know. Cursing us. So we got one of them once. Yeah. You couldn’t write that in fiction could you and get away with it? But it’s true. Yeah.
GT: What, what was the reasoning for the Germans to do the forced march?
JM: The, Hitler was, we learned later that Hitler was going to use them as hostages to gather them around Berlin as far as he could to determine, to deter the allies from bombing close to Berlin. Because he’d be hitting his own POWs and particularly the tanks that were guarding the bunker itself in Berlin. So we learned that later. That we were going to be used as hostages. There was quite a number of us by then. We queued up with Lamsdorf on the march and there was two and a half thousand of those joined us on the march. So, when we got to Luckenwalde there we were joined by refugees would you believe. They, they were on the road for the same reason as us. They were fleeing in front of the Russians because the Russians never asked questions. If anything was moving in front they just mowed it down. In fact, when we were at Luckenwalde, this is another one you won’t believe but mothers were coming up with their daughters. We stayed in camp when the Germans left. They disappeared one night, overnight and there was no Germans guarding the camp anymore so, we took over guard ourselves. And there were women coming up to the wire with their daughters offering themselves and their daughters to live with them in their houses just to get a British uniform in the house because they knew the Russians had been told not to offend an allied uniform. So, it was their protection to get us to live with them. With an allied uniform in the house. How about that? You couldn’t write that in fiction could you? Some of the blokes did actually go but most of us didn’t. We, we were waiting to get out of the camp altogether in a way. In fact, there’s a, they had, the Yanks were allowing the Russians to cross the Elbe ad lib as they wanted to get back into their own country. But the Russians were stopping allied prisoners from crossing the Elbe in to the American territory until the Americans got wise to this and stopped the Russians. And then the Russians allowed the Americans to bring lorries up to the camp and ferry us by lorry back in to the American zone. Yeah. Leipzig they took us too. You see, it was a wireless school for the Germans. I was looking through the window one day in Leipzig and I saw a boot outside the window. I thought that’s an odd — there must be a one legged man walking about. A boot. Just one boot. And when I looked closely there’s a foot inside it. Would you believe that? I thought oh that’s enough for me. Do you know the Yanks had pineapple chunks and cream. Ordinary cream. On the tables at their camp. Right close to the front line. Pineapple chunks and cream on the tables in their mess. In their cook house. Aye. I couldn’t believe my eyes. We couldn’t touch it because our stomachs were so tender that we were told not to touch it otherwise we’d be violently sick. So it was very tempting but we had to leave it alone [laughs]
GT: So are you pretty positive that the Russians moving from one side and the Americans from the other pretty much prevented all you POWs ending up being —
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
JM: In fact the Russians made a great show of mowing the wire down, the outside wire of the camp with a tank. And the following day they put it up again. Put the wire up. We were just pretty much prisoners of the Russians as we’d been of the Germans because they wouldn’t allow us out of the camp. They started, they said it was because there were a lot of Germans loose in amongst us and they wanted to ferret them out. And they started taking all our particulars you know. Writing them down like the Germans had done before at Dulag Luft. But we gave them all sorts of silly answers. I think some of us were circus performers. Somebody rode unicycles [laughs] Things like that. All daft things that they were writing down.
GT: So, how many of the RAF Bomber Command chaps would you think were dropped by the wayside and did not survive the forced march? And therefore, what happened to their bodies?
JM: I couldn’t even say. I couldn’t know that really. We did see several bodies by the side of the road but you couldn’t tell with the snow covering them who they were. We could see the spread-eagled shapes but, and the bunched-up shapes but we didn’t know who they were or what they were. So quite a lot of them didn’t survive.
GT: And the Germans were given orders to shoot?
JM: To shoot any prisoners that dropped by the wayside but we were to learn later on that they just fired in the air. As I said it’s an easy death. You just go to sleep with hypothermia.
GT: What kept you going, Jim?
JM: I really don’t know but I was young. I was only twenty and some of these prisoners had been since Dunkirk. They were very weak and on severe dietery all those years. They just couldn’t survive. You know. They just dropped out ad lib. In fact, some of the blokes that were fitter even than I was had a handcart and they were, they were picking up blokes that had fallen. And they had about six or seven in this handcart. And they knew that the sentries had only fired in the air because they saw them do it. And they were put in this handcart with survivors. How they did that I don’t know. It took me all my time to stay on my feet. Yeah. I had, I had my escape boots had a wrap around of nylon and you could, you had a little pen knife in a slot and you could cut this off leaving you just with the shoes. And I used to use this wrap on the front and the back of my battledress to try and keep me warm. I had a greatcoat on and all as well which the Red Cross issued me at Dulag Luft. In fact, there’s a photograph of me somewhere with my original documents with this greatcoat on. I think Pat’s got it now. I think she’s filched it I think [laughs] I haven’t seen it for years so she must have pinched it.
GT: So once you got to pretty much the end of that, of your march you were put into another POW camp and it was from there that the allies rescued you or took you back to what was it? Juvencourt?
JM: The lorries took us to a place called Leipzig. This wireless school as I’ve just mentioned. And from there they flew us in Dakotas to Brussels. And then from Brussels in Lancasters, eight at a time back to Cosford in England to be based at Fenchurch. That’s how we arrived back in England.
GT: So, was there much time between or was that pretty immediate?
JM: I think there was a couple of days. We spent a couple of days in Brussels. We got deloused by the Americans because we were in filthy uniforms and that you know. And they issued us with new uniforms at Brussels and we were able to go into Brussels. Gave us some money and have a haircut. They didn’t half rook us and all, the barbers. They knew we were coming and they knew we had money. Money you know. They rooked us. We had a ride on a tram while we were there for free. They didn’t, we had a ride around Brussels on trams. I think there was three of us. Three or four of us. So that was, that was a bit of an adventure in Brussels because everything was open. You know. Everything were pre-war as it were then.
GT: So what were they feeding you then? Because you’d pretty much been starved. So how were they feeding you? Gradually, with good food.
JM: Yeah. The —
GT: Was it up to you or did they supply it?
JM: We had what was known as a progressive diet. It came in a box. And it usually had a pork pie and some bread and butter. And a cake of some kind. As I vaguely remember. And we were allowed to eat this, I think twice a day until our stomachs got used to expanding enough to take better food. And then we got on to corned beef hash and things like that. You know. That our stomachs could manage. That’s why.
GT: So, was that sent over to Belgium from England?
JM: Yes. Yeah.
GT: Oh. I see.
JM: The, when we were on at Cosford just normal cookhouse food after that. Yeah. I remember sausages in mash. Oh, Shangri la [ laughs] I personally enjoyed. Yeah.
GT: When you left the camps and even after the march did many of your chaps have a chance to grab souvenirs like medals?
JM: Well, funnily enough we, I managed to bag a little small Beretta. The German officers used to wear them in a little leather pouch in their dress uniform. Quite a small Italian six shot Beretta. And I can’t remember where I got this from but I got it at Leipzig. From somewhere or other. I got one of the ober feldwebels caps at the same time which I brought home. And when we went to get deloused some swine pinched it. Funnily enough Jack Bagshaw at work, when I was at work at Avro’s he was a motor torpedo mechanic. He had six Packards between decks roaring away in his ear. He was deaf in one lughole. He used to get away with that. That’s another story. And he came, I was telling him this story and he came to work one day and handed me an oily rag and there was this little Beretta. Exactly the same model. He said, ‘You can keep it if you want.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’m not carrying a firearm in the house. You’re responsible. You get it back.’ You know. So I gave it back to Jack Bagshaw. Yeah. But it was exactly the same little six shot Beretta. Italian make. Yeah. It was a lovely little thing. Yeah.
GT: The reason I ask you that, Jim is because what one of the chaps on 75 Squadron, Randall Springer — he showed me several years ago a handful of medals that one of the prisoners of war had thrust into his hand as they pulled him on to the Lancasters. And one of them was an Iron Cross. So, that particular chap, POW managed to grab a bunch of medals from someone and they ended up in New Zealand. And I’ve heard of others talk of on the ship that arrived into Wellington or Auckland harbours taking all of the airmen back. A lot of them had firearms or daggers or bayonets and they, they got cold feet and threw them overboard before they, before they landed. So that’s the reason I asked you that question.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Brilliant. So, once you were back in England you arrived in Cosford you said?
JM: Yes.
GT: Yes. And they repatriated you pretty much so that —
JM: To Fenchurch. Fairly close by. In fact, I rang up directory. My Uncle Tom was a chief electrician of, was head of the Electricity Board in Leeds and I got directory to give me his phone number and I phoned him up. He said, ‘Where are you, Jim?’ I said, ‘I’m on Fenchurch station.’ He said, ‘Well, there’s a clock there. You stand under that clock until I come for you.’ And he took me back to his home and I slept there for, I had a sleeping out pass obviously carrying [unclear] and I slept there a couple of nights while we got acquainted. He took [laughs] he took me to his club that night among a few of his cronies. One of their private clubs, you know. In the city. And they plying me with ale and loosening my tongue you know and about halfway through this Tom said to me, ‘I want to speak to you Jim for a minute. I want to tell you a story. And it’s about a sparrow that got evacuated from London in to the countryside. And he was lost. He didn’t know where to eat or anything,’ he said, ‘And a bull came into the field and asked him what the problem was. So the sparrow told him his tale of woe and this bull said, ‘Oh, I’m fed on the best of stuff. I’ll drop you patch here. You get stuck in to that,’ he said, ‘I’m fed on the finest food there is.’ So, this was agreed. And day by day the sparrow used to climb up the tree singing his heart out ‘til he got right to the top. And he’s singing away his heart out on this rich diet. And a little boy with a new airgun came in and [pop noise] and down came the sparrow.’ He said, ‘There’s a moral to this story, Jim. When you get to the top on bullshit don’t make a song and dance about it.’ To my eternal grief and shame it was two days before I realised who the sparrow was. Me. [laughs] That was my uncle Tom. Yeah. He was, he was instrumental when I had the fire engine I told about. Seeing Walter. He, he, I pulled up one day outside his house in this fire engine and he said, ‘Good God. You can’t leave that.’ It was a [Banjo?] Avenue, you know. ‘You can’t leave that. Nobody can get past.’ ‘Hang on,’ he said, ‘I think I know where that’ll go.’ He came back about ten minutes later. ‘Follow me,’ he said, ‘But be prepared to back up when I tell you to.’ So I backed up. He stopped me about between the vicarage and the church. There was just room for this fire engine to get off the road you know and out of the way of other cars. That’s by the way that but that’s my Uncle Tom. He was instrumental in electrifying many of the Indian railways.
GT: Right. Well —
JM: Years before.
GT: So, from Cosford and the satellite that you were repatriated to did you end up back at Mepal?
JM: Only once. For the fire engine. That’s all. Well, funnily enough —
GT: No. But you were telling me about your logbooks. So, so what happened about your logbooks?
JM: Well, when I was at Fenchurch as I said a fifteen hundred weight opened the double doors at the back end of the cookhouse, backed in and tipped up. It must have been a thousand or more logbooks on to the floor and said, ‘Yours is in that lot. Try and find it.’
GT: So, were these just 75 Squadron logbooks or from all stations?
JM: I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t know that. I went to the number that must have been from a number of stations. There wouldn’t have been all from Mepal. No. I had attempted to look through and I thought oh well, I wasn’t interested in a logbook. I’d survived. That’s all I was interested in.
GT: And therefore you do not have your logbook today.
JM: No. I don’t know where it is or even if it exists.
GT: It’s a lot of history. A lot of history to go. Now, the Aircrew Europe Star. We know that the Aircrew Europe Star was stopped at D-Day.
JM: A point. Yeah.
GT: At a point. And from there on all of those that flew ops in Bomber Command were only eligible for the France Germany Star.
JM: Yeah.
GT: What’s your thoughts as a person who went on ops across that time?
JM: Well, I singled it out as if somebody did one op during the qualifying period they would get the Aircrew Star. I did thirty four. Or thirty three and a half. A fortnight outside the qualifying period and I didn’t get it. And I was a bit peeved about that I must admit. Yeah. But it didn’t come through so that was it. They wrote to me and said that I was a fortnight outside. I’ve got the letter somewhere. Outside the qualifying period so therefore I didn’t qualify for the Aircrew Star.
GT: And to continue on from that there was no actual Bomber Command campaign medal although the clasp was introduced as a, an add on.
JM: Yeah.
GT: An attempted fix.
JM: Yeah. I’ve got that. It’s shown up on that photograph there.
GT: Brilliant. But what’s your thoughts then on the fact — pretty much I’m guessing it’s the same as what the France Germany versus the Aircrew Europe isn’t it? Bomber Command chaps like yourself never was showing the grace and the sacrifice you guys made by having your own campaign medal. You’ve had a lot of time to think of this, Jim. What’s your thoughts on that?
JM: I just dismissed it as the way the cookie crumbles. I wasn’t there when they wanted me to be so that’s the end of it. As I say I was a bit peeved I must admit. For obvious reason.
GT: Well, the Bomber Command medal or campaign medal it was decided that there would not be one and that was decided some years after the war.
JM: Yeah.
GT: So the fact that you guys did not get a campaign medal is, was they made a decision then and we’re stuck with. And there are still some folk still trying to make sure that you do get more recognition than just a clasp.
JM: Nice to know.
GT: Yeah. And the last piece therefore of medals is that you are eligible for the Legion of Honour from the French.
JM: I didn’t know that.
GT: And therefore I’m going to make enquiries to ensure that the application is put forward of your, of your service to the French. I have done six gentlemen in New Zealand in the last three or four years. So therefore, noting that at least some of your operations were against Le Havre and other French targets you are eligible. So, we will do something about that, Jim. Now, Jim when you finished obviously with recuperating did you stay in the RAF or did you, or were you demobbed come VJ day?
JM: As I said before I went in to MT. Motor Transport. Because I didn’t want to fly a plate washing machine. So, carrying tapes and a crown made me eligible to drive the buses. The thirty two seater Fordsons. And the Thornycroft crane. That was nine and a half ton. I took my wife over to the island when I was in Jurby because we were only married in the July and this was in September. So she had a few months there before I was demobbed the following year in January. I came back to Liverpool to get demobbed and get issued my civvy togs you know. The, there was quite a few things happened there as well. What was the first one? I know I was, I was driving an arctic with furniture. Taking to — from Jurby to Athol, further up the road. And I thought, oh no the wife’s shopping in Ramsey today. I know she said she was going shopping. I’ll go and do a bit of showing off in Ramsey with this Arctic, you know. So I drove off my proper route and went into Ramsey and I got it jack-knifed on one of the corners. A policeman came over and said, ‘What are you trying to do, son?’ I said, ‘Well, I was only married in July and I know the wife’s shopping here. I came, I came down to do a bit of showing off actually and I’ve got jack-knifed here.’ So, he sat back on his heels laughing. He said, ‘In thirty odd years I’ve never heard an excuse like that.’ He said, ‘We’ll get you out of here. I know who these drivers are.’ So they came out and had a good laugh at my expense, shifted their cars and I got this un-jack-knifed and drove out of Ramsey. It wasn’t until about a month later my wife said she’d witnessed all this from one of the shop doorways and kept out of the way [laughs] How about that? Oh dear. I never lived that down.
GT: Well, tell me, Jim about your lovely wife then. Where did you meet? And you married in the July of 194 –
JM: ’45.
GT: ’45.
JM: ‘45
GT: Please tell me about your dear wife.
JM: We — I was a, I was, I did a lot of roller skating and I had one partner called Jean. She was, I was only, what was I? Thirteen. I think she was twelve. And her mother told me off once because we were, as a gang we were messing about in air raid shelters you know. Lads and girl. And her mother told me off one day. Singled me out and said, ‘You’ve been messing about with my daughter in an air raid shelter. Now, I’m telling you now you’ve got to stop it.’ I said, ‘Alright. Ok. Can I take her skating on Saturday night?’ She said, ‘You’ve got guts lad. I’ll tell you that.’ She said, ‘You’ll have to ask her dad when he comes home.’ So, I said, ‘When’ll he be home?’ She said, ‘About 5 o’clock.’ So, I went and asked him. Got on my bike. I rode back up to [unclear] Drive from Levenshulme and I said, ‘Can I take your daughter?’ He said, ‘Well, she’s got to be home for 10 o’clock at night.’ I said, well he’d got piles very badly, he couldn’t move. He was locked in an armchair. He said, ‘You’d better have her home by 10 o’clock.’ I said, ‘Well, skating doesn’t end, finish ‘til ten and it’ll take us about half an hour to walk home from there. Can we make it half past?’ ‘Not a second later,’ he said, ‘Not a second later.’ And by the skin of our teeth we made it, you know. But after that Mrs Mac used to send him to bed to give us a bit of leeway coming home. So he never knew what time we got home after that. They always gave me a cup of cocoa before I rode home on my bike. I used to take my bike to the rink and walk Jean home and then get on my bike and ride home from their house in Burnage back to Levenshulme. Yeah. She was a brilliant partner too. We had some fun. Len Lee and the, Jack Woodford used to run a skate room at Levenshulme Skating Rink. And they used to, they had two elderly people taught Jean and I how to dance on skates and we taught Len and Jack how to dance on skates. So they picked up partners and liked to copy me and Jean and they learned to dance on skates. And one time we were doing a tango. Well, the skate was rectangular. The rink. And we used to do a figure of eight so that we could have more room on the wood then we would normally just following the rectangle you see. And we used to time it so that we’d pass one another, Len Lee and me in the centre of this eight. And one, the girls used to thump us. We were getting close. We couldn’t see each other. We were going by the standards on the side of the rink. The bar rails, you know. Where we were for the centre of the rink. We couldn’t see each other. And the girls used to thump us. ‘You’re too close. You’re too — ’ We couldn’t see each other. And one night our shirts actually touched. They were billowing out with the speed you know, so the bodies didn’t touch but our shirts actually touched. And I can hear him now, Len Lee ‘Jesus Jim,’ right across the rink, ‘How close is that?’ You know. Because of a closing speed of about twenty miles an hour. Dear. Dear. How we got away with that I’ll never know but that’s by the way.
GT: And you had children.
JM: Oh yes. Lynn is actually shown with my wife in that small picture there. She was first born. She contracted cancer when she was thirty eight. They gave her six weeks to live and she lasted ‘til she was forty two and then she died. So that was it. But she, she said, ‘When I’m going dad I’m going kicking and screaming,’ [laughs] and I bet she did as well. She once went hiking around the world with her mate Brenda and she’s only five foot two. She was only tiny. And Brenda was only small. And they asked me to drop her outside Altrincham so they could pick up a wagon to get a boat to Holland. And when I looked in my mirror and saw these two tiny figures the kit bags were taller than they were. And the next we heard was five days later with a postcard and a cross on it outside the Blue Mosque. She said later on, ‘The first thing we saw when we got to Baghdad was a van going past — Manchester University Student’s Union.’ Going past them down the street. How about that? You couldn’t write that in fiction could you and get away with it? She got very poorly Brenda. Eating fruit that she hadn’t washed and she was, Lynn was trying to bring her around on the pavement propped against the wall. A bloke stopped and said, ‘What’s the matter?’ So she told him. He said, ‘I’m a medical student. I think I can get her out of this.’ And he did. He laid her down in the prone position and started massaging her and got her, made her sick and got her right. So she was able to stand up again and walk. How about that for coincidence? A medical student.
GT: Yeah.
JM: Coming across the pair of them in extremis like that. Yeah. That’s another thing you couldn’t write in fiction but it’s true.
GT: So when you were MT driving you were given some jobs and one of them was Witchford.
JM: Yeah. Oh with the fire engine. Oh, I’ve told you this one already. Yeah.
GT: But Witchford is 115 Squadron’s airfield. Right next to Mepal which was 75 Squadron’s airfield. So —
JM: Yeah. Their drem systems were five, our drem systems were five miles apart. Yeah. The — I had some food. I collected a fire engine. Then I went for some grub to the canteen and one of the women serving me started crying. One of the WAAFs serving on the other side of the cookhouse bar. And she started crying. She said, ‘I know you. You’re supposed to be dead.’ I said, ‘How do you —’ She said, ‘You were from, you were from Rees’s crew. We were told you were dead.’ I said, ‘Well, I can assure I’m very much alive and I’m hungry.’ But she, how about that? She had tears coming down her face and she’s serving me breakfast. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was a unique occasion. Yeah.
GT: So, why did they think you were dead?
JM: Say again.
GT: So, why did they think you were dead then?
JM: Well, because of this blown up business with the two aircraft that collided over the target. They thought our aircraft was one of them and that’s how the tale got back to squadron. Through the rear gunner surviving out of one of them. And that’s when I came with Walter and his ghost story.
GT: Oh, that was on an operation before you were shot down.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Ah. Now, what about —
JM: Oh no. It was on the same operation.
GT: That was that operation.
JM: Yeah. Three.
GT: Yeah.
JM: Three aircraft were lost that day.
GT: Oh right.
JM: From our squadron.
GT: So —
JM: Out of eighteen.
GT: So, now who —
JM: High attrition rate.
GT: Who was Walter?
JM: Walter was the father of the girl I was friendly with in the village.
GT: And what happened when you walked up to him?
JM: I’ll repeat this. I’ll repeat this for what it’s worth. There was some slightly rising ground on a hot summer afternoon when even the silence is noisy. You know what I mean. I parked this tender. The camouflaged tender in grey and green under the tree and walked up the slight rise towards Walter. And about twenty yards off I shouted, ‘Hi Walter,’ and Walter turned, looked at me, ‘No. No. No. Jim. No.’ And his son tugged at his leg, he said, It’s alright, dad. He’s real.’ ‘Jesus, don’t ever do that again,’ he said. He came feeling me to make sure I was real. You know. That was Walter. Aye. I was a ghost for three seconds. How about that? Yeah.
GT: He thought you were shot down as well.
JM: Yeah.
GT: And lost.
JM: As I say I wasn’t aware of this at the time but Walter was. He was aware of the tale and I wasn’t.
GT: And that, you walked up after you’d been repatriated.
JM: Yeah.
GT: From your POW time.
JM: Yeah.
GT: So, being taken POW were your family notified immediately or did it take some time?
JM: No. They gave us — that was a curious thing. They gave us a letter to write to be forwarded through the Red Cross to say that I was safe and well and a prisoner of war. And the Red Cross was supposed to deliver this to my mother. Which she didn’t get until six months later. But curiously enough a couple up in Scotland had a very powerful shortwave receiver and they used to listen to the Red Cross broadcast of prisoners of war and other items of interest to families. And they found out that I was a prisoner of war through this receiver and contacted the Air Ministry with this information. And the Air Ministry gave them my mother’s address. And six months after I’d been shot down this couple contacted her and told her that I was alive and well. How about that? Through the shortwave receiver they had in operation up in Scotland. In Lossiemouth in Scotland. Yeah. So my mother didn’t know whether I was alive or dead for over six months. That was a bit hard on her. Yeah.
GT: And how long were you a POW for?
JM: From November in ’44 ‘til April, ‘til May in ’45.
GT: Which was practically the whole six months. Yeah. The starvation thing that you endured did that have any lasting effect on you in later life?
JM: Only making my stomach small so that it was difficult to get back to eating solid food later on in Leipzig where the Yanks took us. They were aware. We weren’t the first prisoners of war obviously to stay there and they were aware of what was needed to get our stomachs to expand and gave us these feed boxes twice a day as I remember. That contained the necessary things that would make our stomachs bigger and bigger ‘til we could take solid food.
GT: So, after the disbanding from the RAF, the demobbing, what did you do as a career for the rest of your days? Your [unclear] days.
JM: Well, I was able to get what was called a green card from the AEU because of my service in the RAF. What I did then. And that allowed me to get an engineering job anywhere with the blessing of the AEU with this green card. And the first, first job I had was at Crossley’s in Crossley Road in Levenshulme building buses. I only stopped there for about a month and then I went up to Mirrlees where they made diesel engines and I got into their experimental department and worked there for about eleven years. And after that I was going by bicycle up from here in Ashford Road up to Mirrlees on a bike which wasn’t bad going but was pretty bad coming back up the hill when I was tired. So I got a job at Craven’s making machine tools and I became a machine tool fitter. I was eleven years at Craven’s. I were five years at Mirrlees and eleven years at Craven’s. So I became a machine tool fitter and began travelling up and down the country after a while putting machinery in for Craven’s. I put a fourteen foot borer once at Peter Brotherhood’s at Peterborough. That’s like a big turntable. It was in eight pieces that. Fourteen feet across. Two uprights and a cross slide. And I put that together myself and trimmed it off and that would probably last about a hundred and fifty, two hundred years that because of the way it was made. Yeah. Other things are [unclear] in, down in in Kent. Different places. And Falkirk. The funny thing happened in Falkirk. I was, I was putting a machine in there and I felt very uncomfortable and I thought, I went to the boss of where I was working, I said, ‘I’ve got to go home. I’m sorry. I feel very uncomfortable. There’s something happening at home and I don’t know what it is.’ And I got home later that day and my wife was teetering in the front room trying to hang a piece of wallpaper up and she was just about over balancing on the steps when I grabbed hold of her. I went in silently because I looked through the window first. Saw her as she was teetering and we both finished up on the side of the wall and in a heap on the floor. And she brought me home from Falkirk and I don’t know how or why. If that isn’t mental telepathy I don’t know what is. But she did that and I wasn’t aware of it. That’s true that is. Yeah. We all finished up on a heap on the floor and she had the two bits of wallpaper on the floor [laughs] ‘You made me jump,’ she said. I said, ‘You’d have jumped if you’d have fell over. You were overbalancing then.’ And she was as well. I cut the ropes on the ladder so that she wouldn’t use it again. Chucked it outside. So I went back up to Falkirk and finished my job.
GT: You had many lovely years with your wife.
JM: Sixty six years we were married. Yeah. As I said before I only, I only signed up for a fortnight. But anyway it was very enjoyable. She was a wonderful wife. She really was. I remember my mother saying, ‘She’s not the girl for you, Jim.’ But she was wrong. She was. She, I learned later I was in the rink, she first spotted me at Birchfield Skating Rink. And she said to a mutual friend of hers, she saw me come in the rink and she said to this friend, this friend told me years later as soon as she saw me walk in the rink she said, ‘I’m having him,’ [laughs] to this friend. And I didn’t even know the woman then, you know.
GT: How old was she?
JM: She’d be twenty. Twenty two. Yeah. Same age as me. Well, she’s the older one. She’s a month older than me. Her birthday’s in May and mine’s in July but she said to this mutual friend who told me years later, ‘I’m having him.’ And she did and all. I don’t know how but she did. Yeah. Yeah. She, as I say she was a wonderful wife. Wonderful mother. A wonderful person.
GT: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
GT: [unclear] Jim.
JM: I get a bit emotional.
GT: Well, it’s understandable and I’m very sad to hear of her loss from dementia. That’s understandable. Jim, the engineering stuff that you learned from the RAF. Did that help you once you’d become a civilian again?
JM: Oh yes. Yeah. What I learned engineering on aircraft before I volunteered that served me in very good stead indeed because they had a little training school there for mechanics and they taught you the rudiments of engineering. How to file things, you know. How to fettle things. How to scrape things using a scraper. And that, and that lasted, I think about a month and it stood me in good stead in Civvy Street. Particularly as, oh that was the thing we used, they used to send Hurricanes over from Canada that had been made in Canada and the fuselage was in a big long box with the wings lay alongside it and the tail unit already in place. And we used to get these out, assemble them together and fly them off. And we used to work dinner times because they used to get a lot of fluff in the radiator and that used to seize up and get the engines too warm. So one day we were, we used to work dinner times if we could because we could get a couple of hours off later on you know and eat what we liked. And one day we were changing a radiator on a Hurricane and an Oxford landed. And my mate who was senior to me, he said, ‘Go and wave that in.’ So I went over on to the field and waved this Oxford in and shut it down. And I walked back again and got underneath, got on with this thing, and then we saw three figures walking along in American uniform and the middle one was in civilian dark clothes. And the other American was in American uniform. And he said, ‘Who’s that?’ ‘It’s Bob Hope.’ We’d heard rumours about this. It was Bob Hope. And he came over to us and he bent down underneath and he said, ‘What are you doing, lads?’ So, we said, ‘Well, we’re changing this radiator.’ And he shook hands, I said, dirty hands. And he shook hands with us. Dirty oily hands you know. And he gave us chewing gum. They used to be in little squares in the packet. You didn’t have it in layers. It was in little peppermint coated squares you know. All these tiny squares and a big packet of these. I gave it to the WAAFs later on because I didn’t eat chewing gum. But he did a show I understand in the hangar. He came to bury his grandfather who lived in Hitchin because he, he was British born, Bob Hope. And his grandfather died and that’s why he was up here. He was over with Frances Langford and one or two other. Bing Crosby. Entertaining the troops. In the USO in London, you know. That’s why they were over here.
GT: What was that? 1943 or something?
JM: Yeah. It was forty — no. It would be ’45 wouldn’t it? Oh no. Forty. No. You’re right. ’43. Yeah. And he gave quite a show in the hangar to everybody and signed a lot of autographs you know. On toilet paper would you believe. And I got one of them. I brought it home. Yeah. Signing autographs on toilet paper. You had to double it over to make sure. He was, he was a great bloke. Yeah. He came to bury his grandfather who died in Hitchin. That was about five miles away from Henlow where we were at the time. It was a peacetime aerodrome. Brick buildings, barrack room jobs. You know. Not Nissen huts.
GT: So, when did you retire? What age were you when you retired? Or year I suppose.
JM: I retired from Avro’s. I went to work at AV Roe’s because Cincinnati started buying out machines tool people and closing them down so that they could take the orders. Cincinnati in America were closing, closed Richard’s down. And then we knew they were going to close Craven’s down so one of my mates went up to Woodford. And he phoned me about a week later, he said, ‘Get your arse up here a bit quick. It’s money for old rope.’ So, I went up and because of my earlier training in the RAF I got in to experimental at Woodford. So I got in amongst the flying aircraft there and that was quite an enjoyable time to stay there. And I retired from Woodford when I was sixty five. Yeah.
GT: So you saw the introduction of the Vulcan.
JM: Oh yes. Aye. I’ve worked on the Vulcan. Would you believe a Vulcan is held, the engines in a Vulcan are held by one bolt? It’s about three and a half inches thick and it’s about a foot long and you have to feed it through a, through the engine and through a hangar in the roof of the engine bay. And apart from tags at the front and back to stop it from swivelling that’s the only thing that holds the engine in a Vulcan. Would you believe? One great big bolt. And they’re thirty three thousand horsepower each those engines. Olympus engines. Thirty three thousand horsepower each.
GT: Same as the Concorde.
JM: And one bolt holds them in. That’s unbelievable isn’t it?
GT: So what makes the howl?
JM: What makes —?
GT: The Vulcan howl.
JM: Oh. The — we had diffusers on the drum and they started by air pressure. We have what’s known as a Palouste with a little rover engine at the back and it builds up air pressure. You put this into the aeroplane and it drives the turbines around until they’re fast enough for the fuel to be ignited and then they open up themselves so that they shut it down, did that one by one. AV Roe’s do that. They’d run the engines. Not us. The [pause] I’ve nothing to add to that I don’t think. But these diffusers made the howl go upwards. They were L shaped. Big metal things. And they put out. They could hear us in Bramhall but we couldn’t hear an awful lot here because the sound went up. But they could hear us in Bramhall you know. Yeah.
GT: That must have been exciting times with the V force bomber aircraft coming on line and all the experimental little small delta wing aircraft.
JM: Yeah. I did the right thing going to Woodford although I went for a few months until I could get back in to the machine tool industry but I was there thirty years in all. And I’ve got a watch to commemorate it. It’s upstairs.
GT: Yeah.
JM: What did I want to say?
GT: What about the Saunders Roe? Did you have anything to do with — which had one of the first ejection seats from Martin-Baker?
JM: No. No. I had nothing to do with that at all.
GT: That was a Navy one.
JM: No. Funnily enough, Poggy the engineer on the Vulcan, he, they had to — there was a quite a reoccurring fault with the buzz bars at the back of the Vulcan and sometimes they used to go off line which left them with an aircraft with no power. They had a RAT an air rotating power unit that they used to drop down out of the wing into the air flow to give them enough time to check instruments and so forth. But he had to bale out as well. Bob Pogson. Anyway, we were able to compare Caterpillars together, you know. We both had the same card.
GT: [unclear]
JM: Bob Pogson. He baled out of a Vulcan. There was one did and all. They lost another Vulcan with Edwards and he qualified for a Caterpillar. We had three of us in Vulcan qualifying. Showing cards to one another you know and everybody looking and wondering what the hell we were doing. Yeah. The — one of the blokes at that I worked with on the benches, he said, I showed him some photographs some time and he said, ‘You’re my hero.’ I said, ‘Don’t talk shit. Heroes didn’t come back.’ And apparently he showed them around. I got quite a reputation at Woodford because he told other people like the twins and so forth like that. And they did very well really. You must be running out of time on that.
GT: One thing that always interested me was the V force bombers always had four — well the pilot and co-pilot always had the ejection seats and the men in the back were facing rearwards without ejection seats.
JM: That’s right.
GT: And I believe it became an issue that even went to your parliament. Do you recall anything that along that was talked of at the time and they —
JM: Well, Poggy told me that they had to drop the aircrew entrance door. That the RAT enabled them to do that because that was the supplying a bit of power. Random Air Turbine. And they dropped that and they dropped the ladder and they climbed down a ladder, turned. Oh, they’d got to turn the seats around obviously to face the gap and they take it in turn, the middle one first and then the other two in progress. Climb down the ladder, turn and face the undercarriage which they dropped down, get a hold of the leg and slide down the leg and roll off the nose wheel and pull the D ring. That’s how they baled out of the Vulcan. The pilots ejected after they had gone. The pilots made sure that they, the three were out before they ejected. So I understand.
GT: As long as you had height.
JM: Yeah.
GT: And good weather. There were quite a few Vulcans that went in.
JM: Yeah.
GT: That took everyone.
JM: That’s the only insurance you’ve got with an aeroplane is height.
GT: Yeah.
JM: You’ve got time to do things with height. You don’t have any height — oh dear. No insurance. Oh dear.
GT: And at that time with still Bomber Command.
JM: Yeah. It was. Yeah.
GT: The irony of you being in Bomber Command for —
JM: Yeah. We were towing an aircraft, a Shackleton across the short runway when a Vulcan was taking off and we had to wait on the short runway and the long runway was going past us like that and we were towing this Shackleton on to the compass point to swing the compass on the other side the aerodrome. And the Vulcan took off and the shockwave with it bent us over. And it’s about fifty yards in front of us. The runway. And yet the shockwave that followed it bent us all over and we stood by the side of the tow truck. How about that. The enormous force that that aircraft generated when it took off. Unbelievable. You wouldn’t believe that but we didn’t grab hold of anything but we were bent over. It was enough to bend us over with the shockwave. Yeah.
GT: Did you have anything more to do with Lancasters then once you’d finished? I mean were they —
JM: The — when we were at Coningsby. Coningsby. The photograph up there shows us at Coningsby. They invited us up there for the seventy fifth. See there. And put us up at the Petwood Hotel where the Dambusters stayed. There’s all photographs of that as well. And while we were there the — there was a hundred and fifty veterans there with their families in the hangar and the hangar was open wide. And eleven of us were up for gongs and when they read the, quote the citation out they read a bit of your war record. And we went through all these motions and had the clasp that went with it and the gong. And a little while later I was walking underneath the Lancaster. Our Lancaster. The Canadian one was there as well. They flew seven and a half hours over water in a seventy two year old aeroplane. That’s guts for you isn’t it? And they did it on the way back as well. The Canadian crew. Anyway, I’m walking about underneath this Lanc and the crew chief must have been listening and he came to the edge and he said. ‘Do you want to come aboard?’ Do I want to come up? Seventy five years since I’d been aboard a Lanc. Pat has a story. My daughter. She said, ‘You’re creeping about with your walking stick and as soon as he said come aboard you’re like a rat up a drainpipe,’ she said, ‘You couldn’t get in quick enough,’ [laughs] Funnily enough I had a feeling of claustrophobia when I got in. I didn’t realise how close it was inside the Lanc. And I used to get in there in full gear with my bag of tools, my parachute, my clipboard. In full altitude gear, helmet, oxygen mask on and climb over the main spar. And there was only about two feet between the top of the main spar and I used to get over that like a monkey. And I’m holding on to things here trying to get over the fuselage. A one in three slope. I didn’t get over the main spar. I never got on. My son in law did. Later on at Coningsby. He got over the main spar and into the front. He took some photographs of it inside. But I never got over it. Yeah. Silly isn’t it? But Pat’ll tell you that story. Like a rat up a drainpipe. I couldn’t get in at first because there was a step there that carries a dinghy — not a dinghy. Oh, I forget what but you’ve got to reach over this step to get into the Lanc and you’ve got to hang on to the bullet rails, you know. Bullet carrier rails to get in over this step. And I got in. I got over that and I got half up and there’s two two of the crew there watching people don’t do anything you know while they’re in the aircraft. There was two of us in at the time. The other fellow was in the rear looking in the rear turret. He was a rear gunner. I said, ‘Do you show the girl’s the golden rivet?’ He said, ‘Oh aye.’ We used to sneak the girls in at our squadron. Different popsies. You know, girlfriends. With the torchlight. The rest bed is half way down. Just behind the main spar. And the golden rivet is supposed to be over the other end of the rest bed. You know. Down below, underneath. And you get the girls to bend over and you bend over them. It’s Shangri la. You know. Showing them [laughs] He said, ‘We didn’t know about that. We’d have used that.’ But you’d have got done for that and all. We’d have got court martialled if we’d been caught doing that. Getting the girls inside the aircraft. I got Jean in. Yeah. I think, I think Ray got his girl in as well. Yeah. He did. Yeah. ‘What are you doing?’ ‘I’ve got to get over the back of you to show you where the rivet is.’ [laughs] Shangri la. Oh dear.
GT: Jim, it’s been a pleasure chatting with you. And your birthday’s coming up soon. Coming up Saturday.
JM: Sunday it is.
GT: Sunday. And you will be?
JM: Ninety four.
GT: Fabulous. And I know that.
JM: If I get there.
GT: It’s only a few days away.
JM: Oh, don’t you start. Pat’s like that.
GT: It’s only a few days away. You’ll make it.
JM: Many a slip between cup and lip.
GT: You’ll make it. Thank you very much for, for telling me some amazing information about your time with Bomber Command. Your time with Bomber Command number two afterwards. And I know the International Bomber Command Centre would be, will be very very pleased to receive your recording here.
JM: My pleasure.
GT: And its and you know we’ve, we’ve been chatting for one and three quarter hours so it’s a fabulous piece of history that you have, you have displayed with me.
JM: I must have happened to thousands of other Bomber Command people. There’s nothing unique about me. Thousands of others have been through the same experiences I’m sure. Or some closely near to it. Yeah.
GT: I I would suggest that many haven’t had the opportunity to tell their story. There’s many that do not want to tell their story. You are a gentleman that has been very easy with your story and been very willing to tell it and it’s fabulous. It’s a fabulous piece of history.
JM: I suppose its, it’s a matter of boasting I suppose. I survived.
GT: No. You —
JM: I didn’t intend to boast in any way. It’s all true.
GT: You survived by the four letter word that you all taught.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Luck.
JM: That’s it. I was once told that flying was ninety percent boredom and ten percent luck. And that’s how you survive. Not far from the truth in some degree.
GT: Yes. It is. It is indeed, Jim. Well, happy birthday for Sunday.
JM: Thank you. But the, the youngsters Pat and David are organising a do on Saturday at our local steakhouse and there’s quite a few of us going to be there. The granddaughter, my great granddaughter Alia she’s going to Belgium on the same day, Sunday that my birthday is so to celebrate it we’re having the do on Saturday. We’re doing it then. There’s going to be his mother, Alia’s mother, Alia, David, Pat and myself and Pat’s mother, Mary. Which is quite a few of us.
GT: Well, I know your family very much love you and obviously are looking out for you. Caring for you. And you’re a very valuable person to us and the 75 Squadron Associations of New Zealand and UK and I very much have been impressed and thankful for your discussion with me today.
JM: I’ve enjoyed your company, Glen. Very much so. You’re a very understanding person and you’ve put me dry dead easy. You must have had some experience of this. One of the interviews I did for the Command people, Pat was listening outside and she came in. She said, ‘I haven’t heard half of this that your telling this fellow. Why don’t you tell me?’ I said, ‘You don’t want to know.’ She said, ‘I do want to know. Alia wants to know. Amy wants to know. Katy wants to know.’ Yeah.
GT: Excellent. Yeah. Well, see even your family can give you a right bollocking. Now, one last thing. Could you drive a car when you —
JM: I could do. Yes.
GT: During, during the time that you were serving on Bomber Command during World War Two.
JM: No. I didn’t drive a car then although I had a licence to drive because you were issued with a licence during the wartime years to drive any vehicle without, a provisional licence but without supervision. You could drive. So I did drive a car on several occasions then. Before I entered the RAF.
GT: The reason I asked you is because I interviewed a gentleman in New Zealand. A English man who was shot down on his third operation. Not on 75. Another squadron. And survived the POW time, and when the gates were thrown open five of his fellow POWs raced into the local town heading towards the Americans as opposed to away from the Russians and they came across a German driving a Mercedes car. And they hooked him out and he ran away. And then they looked at each other and said, ‘Right who’s going to drive us?’ And there was two pilots of Lancasters, there was a rear gunner, a bomb aimer and a flight engineer. None of those five or six chaps had ever driven a car before and they, they just all had to laugh at each other thinking gosh we’ve just survived all this and now we can’t even drive a car.
JM: It’s funny. You’ve triggered one there because I had a, as I say I pinched an ober feldwebels hat and I used to have this on at Leipzig. When we were at Leipzig. I used to carry this on. And I saw four people get out of a pre-war Ford. What the small Ford they had with the pointed nose and I said, ‘Whose is that?’ They said, ‘We’ve had it for a bit but you can have it if you want it. But,’ he said, ‘You’ll have to join up the clips at the back. They’d taken a battery out of a Focke Wulf 190 and put it on the back seat and hot-wired the ignition so as they could use this Ford. So he could start it and stop it. You stopped it by putting it in gear you know and holding the brake on and start it with a starter. So I drove this about for a bit. I quite enjoyed this with this f’ing great, it was about that long on the back seat out of a Focke Wulf 190. So I coupled it up. Got it driving and the Yanks were still bringing prisoners of war off the road on to the camp. And one of them saw me driving up the outside of this column that was going down and I was driving up the outside and he looked up and he saluted. He saw this car. Thought it was an RAF car. I got a Yankee soldier — a salute of a Yankee soldier would you believe. Aye. Yeah. It did happen that. Yeah. Surprising. And I handed it over to another group as I signalled some people out of a back column. Said, ‘Come over here a bit.’ I said, ‘This is what you do.’ ‘Right,’ they said. ‘Leave them off. We’ll do it.’ So, they took it over from me. To fill it up with petrol we just drove up to the Yankee filling station. ‘How much do you want?’ ‘Fill it up.’ He filled it up till it dripped out the side. Put the cap back on. Yeah.
GT: Recently I’ve interviewed two chaps. One — both in New Zealand Arthur Askew and Bruce Cunningham and both were POWs. Both with extensive stories to tell as obviously you have too. Recently you also flew with Project Propeller.
JM: Yes.
GT: By Graham Cowie. A very very worthwhile —
JM: That’s where I met Dee. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And in this case, this last Project Propeller you were on two weeks ago.
JM: Yeah.
GT: You met up with some other fellow POWs I understand.
JM: Yeah. I showed you the picture there. They were at Bankau in Upper Silesia in Poland at the same time I was. There was another Caterpillar wearer there. There’s only two of us. And apart from, as far as we know we’re the only survivors that are available at this time of the year. If the others had survived then they can’t make the journey. But the Propeller Club are very good. Mind you we picked the worst day of the whole fortnight. The weather was terrible. Both going and coming back.
GT: Yeah.
JM: The pilot offered it to me. I said, ‘Not bloody likely. It’s too lively for me that is.’ He’s working hard at it all the time, you know. Shuddering and bumping. And it was the same coming up. We only just made it with the visibility coming back. Somebody going up north said, ‘You’d better get going pretty soon,’ from Halfpenny Green at Wolverhampton, ‘Because it’s closing in up there,’ and it did. I could see the rain streaming back off and you couldn’t see more than about a mile ahead it was so closed in. The weather. But it did begin to get a little bit clearer as we got to Barton and it was clear enough to land there.
GT: This was not your first project propeller though. Right?
JM: No. We went. We were — we’d gone three years before with a bloke called Duncan Edwards who lives in Bramhall and actually knows David and he had a share in a 72.
GT: And David’s your son in law.
JM: Yeah. David. And he knew him and but for two years we were stopped by bad weather from flying into the reunion.
GT: Yeah.
JM: So, it was the third year running.
GT: [unclear]
JM: That we’d try to get into this reunion. And we got this horrible bad weather to go with it. Bad weather. Aye. It was.
GT: So have you been to the International Bomber Command Centre yet?
JM: Oh yes. We went there when it first opened. We were invited there. Dee came as well. She gave me a wreath to put on the 75 Squadron gravestone.
GT: Brilliant. Dee Boneham’s the treasurer of the 75 Squadron Association in the UK.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Brilliant.
JM: Yeah. She’s a nice person, Dee.
GT: So, what’s your impressions of the IBCC Memorial?
JM: It’s very impressive isn’t it? Particularly the ring of stones around it. And it’s as high as the Lancaster wing is broad isn’t it? So they say. Yeah. It’s the same height as the width of a Lancaster wing.
GT: Did you see the displays inside?
JM: Yes I did. Yes. I did. They had a Blenheim come over and what was the other aircraft? Another. Oh, a Vulcan came over. And a Blenheim, whilst we were there. The Vulcan went over to Lincoln and flew over there, I think the Blenheim did as well. So they came and paid their respects as it were. When it was first opened. Yeah. It was very impressive. Particularly inside. Yeah. I can’t remember half the things I saw but it was very impressive I must admit. They’ve done a wonderful job. All volunteers as well isn’t it? Yeah. Not a paid hand amongst them. Incredible.
GT: They wish to keep your stories and your experiences alive for those of us in the future and it’s —
JM: The kids now don’t want to know do they? They don’t want to know. It’s outside their, it’s on another planet as far as they’re concerned. I think so anyway. Except for Pat and the local family of course. They’re interested. Yeah. Alia brought me back that stick in the hall from Poland. She smuggled it through the guards by putting it up inside her coat. I’ll show you when you go out. It’s all the way from Poland that walking stick. Yeah.
GT: Jim, I’ve often asked veterans that — what Bomber Command did and what Churchill and Bomber Harris achieved. Could they have done it any other way?
JM: I don’t think so. No. I think Butch Harris was right in as much as he said and I quote, ‘They sowed the wind. They’ll reap the whirlwind,’ unquote. And I think that’s what happened. Yeah. A lot of civilians obviously died. That was unavoidable. A lot of our civilians died. I got blown out of bed a couple of times ‘til I got fed up with it and joined up. A bloke in the next street got decapitated because he stayed. He stayed in bed instead of going down in his shelter. His mother and he used to go down in his shelter, ‘Come on.’ ‘Not I. I’m not going.’ but finished up underneath the bed. He didn’t half get, phew. When the Yanks bombed us in that siding it was terrifying. They were 500s. We were dropping four thousand pound blasters and thousand pounders. Dear oh dear.
GT: And your losses.
JM: Yeah. Sixty eight thousand operational aircrew. Fifty six thousand died. The highest attrition rate, attrition rate of any force in the world and no record of those who were wounded. Lost arms, or legs or eyes. No record of that. Must be many thousands more. Fifty six thousand. It’s incredible isn’t it? It works out into one in three isn’t it? Oh. No. One in two. One in two. Yeah. Rather less than one in two. We’d had, we’d have a crew move in to our Nissen hut and share handshakes all around. Show them how to operate the lock and particularly how to operate the stove to get the best heat out of it and the next day they’d gone. We’ve got the SPs coming to collect their kit and remove any offensive material, you know that might be in the lockers. Yeah. Gone. And we only had a handshake and they’d gone. That was a bit sobering at times. Yeah. The average life of a crew on squadron was five weeks. Not a lot is it out of a young man’s life? How the hell I survived I’ll never know. Somebody up there wanted me to carry on. I don’t know who but thank you very much. I’ve had a family since then and that’s been a bit of a bonus. Yeah.
GT: A great survivor. Thanks Jim.
JM: Dee said that once to me. She said, ‘You’re a survivor aren’t you, Jim?’ I said, ‘I hope you’re right.’ She’s a wonderful woman, isn’t she? Dee.
GT: Ninety plus, Jim.
JM: Aye.
GT: That’s awesome.
JM: She’s wonderful.
GT: Well, there are a bunch of us that are wanting to ensure that you realise and know and feel that we both love you and we also appreciate the service you did for both the king, the country and us.
JM: With the many thousands of others don’t forget. You know, there’s nothing unique about me as I repeat. Many thousands of others. And the real heroes are the ones that didn’t come back. They’re the real heroes. They made the sacrifice. We didn’t.
GT: Well, your sacrifice was your POW time.
JM: Yeah. That was a bit nasty.
GT: Yeah.
JM: I didn’t like that at all. I thought that was a bit unfair. Making me walk all those miles. Yeah. A bit unfair that [laughs] Trudging through snow. As far as your eye could see was snow. Just the telephone lines to tell you where they road because they were on the right hand side of the road. The only difference between the road and the field as far as the eye could see. Snow. And then the blizzards would start. Your eyelids would freeze. Close an eyelid and it would freeze. Oh dear. Glasses. I didn’t wear glasses then. Oh dear. It’s all [pause] it all seems to have happened to another person. Didn’t seem to have happened to me but it did. It did. Yeah. I showed you that mug, didn’t I?
GT: Yes.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Very good. Jim, let’s, let’s complete our interview now and thank you very much for, for your time and I will make sure your record is posted again with the IBCC and they will send you details of today’s visit and interview with you. So, thank you.
JM: I’ve enjoyed our time together, Glen. You’re a wonderful person yourself. Come on. Come on. No false modesty. You’ve done the armaments course. You know everybody that needs to be known and you’ve pumped me dry that’s for sure. With a great deal of skill I might add. Yeah.
GT: My special cause is you great gentlemen. So thank you. Righto. Ok.
JM: Thanks a lot, Glen.
GT: Thank you. Thank you, Jim. Ok. We’ll sign off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMulhallJE180703
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Format
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01:57:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James Mulhall trained as a flight engineer and was posted to 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal. On one operation the crew were surprised to be presented by the ground crew with a .303 bullet which proved that they had been the recipient of friendly fire. On their thirty fourth operation their Lancaster was shot down and the crew became prisoners of war. James undertook the long march from Stalag Luft 7 to Luckenwalde. After the war James returned to engineering work and eventually worked on V force aircraft.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
Belgium--Brussels
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Luckenwalde
Germany--Oberursel
Poland--Tychowo
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-05
1945-07
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James Mulhall. Two
75 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Caterpillar Club
displaced person
Dulag Luft
fear
flight engineer
Fw 190
incendiary device
Lancaster
memorial
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
RAF Mepal
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
the long march
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/978/11389/AMarshallJ180116.1.mp3
937541350d7b0cdb88fee6af6c8323f8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Marshall, Jack
J Marshall
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer Jack Marshall DFC (b.1920, 391865 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 115 and 7 Squadron Pathfinders.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Marshall, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: This is Tuesday, the 16th of January 2018, and I am at the home of Mr. Jack Marshall, born 1st August 1920 in London, England. RNZAF air gunner, NZ391865, flying officer in Christchurch, New Zealand. Jack joined the RNZAF in 1939, trained as an air gunner in Levin, New Zealand, and he completed a tour of ops on 115 Squadron in Wellingtons, and another tour on 7 Squadron PFF in Stirlings as a tail gunner. Jack was awarded the DFC in 1943, and returned to New Zealand in November 1943. Jack has completed numerous interviews, and they feature on the internet and his story is widely told. Thank you Jack, thank you for allowing me to come and have a chat with you
JM: It’s a pleasure.
GT: And would you, would you please give us some- A little bit of background of you joining in the RNZAF here in New Zealand, of course you being from England?
JM: I came out to New Zealand in 1937, and we, we’d landed up in Napier, and in those- At that age it was very difficult to find a job, but I finished up with the gentleman’s club in Napier as a steward, and I was only there a couple of years when they war broke, that was from ‘37 to ‘39, and when I could see there was definitely going to be a war, I decided to rush up the street and join the local- Join the air force. We went into Levin in [unclear] just before Christmas, about Nov- Sometime in November ‘39, we took off on the ship for England, I think either late January, early February. We arrived in- I don’t know what time we arrived in England, and we went to a place called Uxbridge where we did all our foot slogging and where they got asked colonial interline[?], and then from there we were, we were sent to our OTU’s, operational training units, where we had our basic training, learning how to strip a Browning gun down and put it together again, that sort of thing, and then finally we were, we were set off to our squadrons. I finished up with 115 Squadron in Marham, in Norfolk, and did my first tour there. I’m not quite sure just how many trips I did from Marham but, after completing my tour out from Marham, I then went to OTU at Bassingbourn, did a stretch there as a, as an instructor, and then went on back onto ops with 7 Squadron, just out of Oakington, that’s in Cambridgeshire, and I did the rest of my trips, which finally amounted to forty-six. There you are, why did we survive forty-six? No, I have no idea [chuckles]. Some went down on their first trip, amazing.
GT: And for the Wellingtons, for the tour on the Wellingtons there, you, you- Have you mentioned to me a very famous- The chap Fraser Barron.
JM: Oh, no that was on my second tour, Stirlings. That’s Fraser Barron, yes, he’s a wonderful guy, a wonderful pilot, and we had a wonderful navigator. Possibly one- Two reasons why we survived [chuckles].
GT: And unfortunately, though he was, he was killed in the air, I believe you said?
JM: Fraser unfortunately was on a trip over Le Mans in France after the second front, and he- Very unfortunately he collided with one of our own aircraft, and I believe it was from our squadron, and the two of them blew up, and I would say there was very, very little left of them, and my wife and I were in France in 2002, and we visited the grave and I have a strong feeling that there was very little in the grave, after such an explosion as that. Anyway, we paid our respects to Fraser.
GT: Brilliant. So, the tour for- You did with 115, was there anything special that you- That happened on your trips there?
JM: Yes, we had one or two hairy, hairy days. One of them was a trip to Genoa in Italy, we did three in a row to Genoa, and on one of them, we- Approaching the alps on the way out, we iced up very badly and Fraser the skipper, said- Talking to Bob the navigator and he said, ‘Bob’, he said, ‘We’re not going to get over the alps’, he said, ‘We’re icing up to badly’. So he said, ‘Well, looks as if we’re going to have to turn round and go home’. Bob pipes up and said, ‘No, well if we can’t go over the alps’, he said, ‘We’ll go through them’, and I’m sitting in the tower thinking, go through them, what’s he talking about? Anyway, he knew exactly where we were, he knew exactly where this big pass was, and we motored up alongside the alps for, I don’t know, probably fifteen or twenty minutes, something like that, and finally found this pass, a huge pass, and I always remember it because way up high on the left-hand side of the pass was this floodlit building, which obviously was a monastery, they were just letting us know that it wasn’t a fortification. So anyway, we got to Genoa, we did our bombing in the shipping in the harbour there, and of course without the bomb, bomb load we were able to come back over the alps this time, and we arrived back at our base and we found that we were the only aircraft in the air that- Anywhere near our base, we got immediate permission to land, and as we touched down, the tail went back down, three of the engines cut on us [chuckles] and- Which obviously we would never- We- If we hadn’t made a decent landing, we’d never have made it. Next morning, we were talking to the ground crew and they- We- They said to us that we had- They reckoned we had about three or four minutes fuel left. So, if we hadn’t made a decent landing, we certainly would never have got round for another one [chuckles].
GT: Astonishing, and you had an incident of a night fighter attacking you that-
JM: Ah yes. We were attacked by two air- Two fighters. The first was a Junkers 88, and he came in with a long burst and disappeared completely, we didn’t see him again. Second one came in was a 109, and he also gave us a very long burst as he came in underneath, which was their, their usual method of attack. He disappeared for a few- A minute or two, and then next minute I'm watching out for him and in the meantime, I find that my turret wouldn’t operate and me guns wouldn’t operate, he’d obviously severed out hydraulics and there he was at the dead stern of me, large as life, and I thought Jack, this is it, you’ve had it this time, and all of a sudden he just peeled off and disappeared, and the only thing we can think, or I can think, is that he had given us such a long burst, and been in combat before us and then when he came in dead as stern of us he had nothing left. How lucky can you be? [Chuckles]
GT: Very lucky indeed. You- Did you have a choice to be an air gunner, or was that what you went into to achieve?
JM: The reason I became an air gunner was they, they needed more air gunners than they do pilots for a start, or navigators, and they were short of gunners and they asked for volunteers, they put a notice on the board calling for us to volunteer to be gunners. So, I thought, why not? [Chuckles]
GT: You were awarded your DFC for you work? What were you awarded your DFC particularly for?
JM: That’s a good question. I, I’ve never really fully understood that, except that I was lucky enough to survive forty-six, and also, I volunteered for the last one, I- Actually I had- I really finished with forty-five, but they had an aircraft on the tarmac with a full crew except a gunner, and they asked me if I'd volunteer and I did, I volunteered the forty-sixth trip. So, whether that had anything to do with it, I don’t know. But I had someone approach me, not so long ago at the, at the village here and he said, ‘By the way’, he said, ‘Not many gunners got the DFC, did they?’, and being honest I had never even thought about it.
GT: Well, I have the citation for your DFC, it’s dated 12th April 1943, from 7 PFF Squadron, RAF Stirlings, ‘This officer has at all times displayed a keenness and desire to engage the enemy which is most praiseworthy. His dependability and conscience, completion of his duties render him a valuable member of aircrew. Throughout a long and successful operational career, he has set a high standard of reliability and enthusiasm’. So, you obviously well deserved the award, for sure.
JM: Fair enough [chuckles]. Well, they thought so.
GT: Now you also were shot down and spent some time in the water you tell me?
JM: Oh, that was on the first tour with Wellingtons. We’d been to Berlin, on the way back we were, we were south of- Somewhere south of Hamburg, and we got, we got hit, and we’d lost the port engine I think it was, and- Anyway, we struggled on and we got forty miles off Great Yarmouth and we finally had to ditch. Before that as we got- Reached the Dutch coast, we cruised on down to Dutch coast with the idea of landing on the beach- On the beach there, but we didn’t like the idea of the gunning placements, of the concrete embarkments, or the barbed wire and what have you. So, we decided to try and get home, we knew weren’t going to make it, but we thought we might get near enough to the English shore to be picked up in a hurry. Anyway, we got forty miles off Great Yarmouth, so we finally ditched the aircraft. Fortunately, the skipper made a perfect sea landing, which is not always easy, and it was a heavy swell at the time, so he’d- His timing was perfect. We made a very good landing, the aircraft filled full of water straight away, and I went out through the astrodome, the others went out through the front cockpit, and when I got out, the dinghy was floating away from the, the aircraft and I walked across the wing and I realised that there’s a possibility that the dinghy was going to be washed well away from me, so I thought well here goes, so I, I jumped straight into the water and fortunately the dinghy came back onto me and they- The boys grabbed me by the shoulders and hauled me into the dinghy. So that was the beginning of it. So, during the [unclear] in the dinghy, a Wellington came out, evidently vectored to us from, from the base, came out and had a look at us, we fired a very cart at him just to make sure he, he had seen us. He circled us for- Probably for forty, fifty minutes, or maybe an hour and then he disappeared and another one took his place, and this went on during the day. Were sometimes quite long periods between visits, and then finally at the end of the fifteenth or sixteenth hour, the HMT Pelton. a trawler, a fishing trawler- These fishing trawlers that normally, in peacetime of course, did fishing trips, they weren’t able to do this during the war, so they used them for mine laying, they used to drop these magnetic mines over in the [unclear] area and this one, HMT Pelton, was vectored onto us from the base and they finally drew up alongside of us, much to our relief, and I can remember the- These couple of burly sailors leaning over the side of the ship, grabbing me by the shoulders and hauling me over onto the deck like a wet fish, and we just lay there because we’d completely lost the use of our legs, and they were very, very good to us they- I remember they put a rope round our- Round us, and they lowered us down a very steep companionway into the engine room, and they got us a bucket of water each, which was steam heated and we stripped right off and poured this bucket of water all over us and washed all the salt, urine and what have you off us, and then they brought us pyjamas which must’ve been theirs and they tucked us up in their bunks and next, next thing we’re all fast asleep, I went off like a light. And next thing is, we arrive in Great Yarmouth alongside the wharf there- Oh, during the, during the night, a royal air force rescue launch came tearing out and wanted to take us on board and take us back to base, and the skipper, due to the heavy swell refused to, to do a transfer. So we were left alone until we got into, into Great Yarmouth. From there we were taken into the naval sick quarters and- Where we were given us a meal and another lot of pyjamas and we were tucked up for the night, in the hospital. Next morning, we were given breakfast and the truck arrived for- Pick us up from the base and we all climbed aboard the truck and went back to our base. That was the end of that [chuckles]. Incidentally, the dinghy was lying on the wharf, and I don’t know where I got the knife from, but I got a hold of a knife from somewhere, and I cut myself out a souvenir out of the dinghy, because it actually got punctured while we were trying to get it away from the aircraft it- We, we lost the outer skin, fortunately we did have two skins, an inner and outer, reason for that was because we had an old dinghy and evidently all the new dinghies were single skin, and I have a letter from the Irving[?] people that made the dinghies, I have a letter from them congratulating on our survival and being so lucky to have had an, an old dinghy [chuckles].
GT: So that claims you for a member of the goldfish club?
JM: That’s right, made us a member of the goldfish club.
GT: Fascinating, fascinating for the- Your survival, and did you have a crew of five or six at the time?
JM: Seven, oh sorry, no, no, si- Wellington, we had-
GT: Did you have a second dicky? Or a second pilot?
JM: No, we had five, I think. Used to have six, we used to carry two pilots but they dropped the second pilot. Losing too many.
GT: I only asked that ‘cause there’s a comment there about- That was 15th of November 1940-
JM: That’s right.
GT: - on 115 Squadron, Wellington, and when returning from a raid on Berlin, you and the crew, except the second pilot, were picked up by Her Majesty’s trawler Pelton at about eighteen-hundred hours. During his rest tour, you were an instructor on 11 OTU, which was in Wellingtons and 11 OTU was Westcott?
JM: That’s right, it was, it was while we’re on the OTU that we did those two-thousand bomber raids. I did Cologne and Essen.
GT: So, were they included in your, your log books as operations, official ops?
JM: Yes, yeah, matter of fact I did three, Cologne, Essen, and Bremen.
GT: So effectively you flew in three units?
JM: Yeah, that’s the bomber- Thousand bomber raids. That was an extreme effort on the part of the RAF, they, they were using OTU aircraft as well as normal squadron aircraft
GT: So, were the rest of your crew qualified personnel? Or were they-
JM: No, they were all-
GT: Students?
JM: They were all green horns like me.
GT: Yeah.
JM: [Chuckles] But I wasn’t-
GT: You’d done a tour.
JM: At that time, I was on my- In between my two tours, I was instructor.
GT: Fabulous. So, did- Did you have any reservations, was- The war was in full flight at that time and, did-
JM: About survival you mean?
GT: Yeah, yeah.
JM: No, I, I schooled myself not to even contemplate the idea of it. I just- From that angle I went blank, and I never ever thought that I wouldn’t survive, never crossed my mind that I wouldn’t survive, that was the only way to get though.
GT: Were there any chaps that you recall that didn’t want to fly again?
JM: I don’t doubt there were quite a few that perhaps after their first tour pulled out. I could’ve pulled out, after the ditching I could've pulled out too, I could’ve- What was it? The lack of moral fibre?
GT: LMF.
JM: I would’ve been accused of that, I would’ve been- I'd have gone as an instructor for the rest of the war. But I didn’t, I, I went back into PFF.
GT: So, you asked for the PFF role?
JM: Yes, I did. Actually, it was quite funny how that happened, they were queuing up- Crewing up for PFF and I approached a Wing Commander Olsen, I rather looked- Liked the look of him, big fella. He became the, he became the com- Chief of air staff in New Zealand for a while. Anyway, he said, ‘Ah, I’m sorry’, he said, ‘I’ve got a full crew’, but he said, ‘I believe that fella over there, Fraser Barron he’s looking for a gunner I believe'. So, I said, ‘Oh thanks’, and I tore across the Fraser and I said, ‘Believe you’re looking for a tail gunner’, he said, ‘Yes’, I said, ‘Well you’ve got one’ [laughs].
GT: He had to accept you then, yeah.
JM: Yeah, we got on very well together anyway, we were the only two Kiwi’s on the aircraft actually. So, we got on very well, used to go into town with and- I always remember when he got his DSO, he- Well he had- Already had his DFM and DFC up, and he was very modest sort of a guy and he got- He wanted me to go into town with him ‘cause he was so embarrassed [laughs].
GT: So did you, did you like the Stirling?
JM: Yes, loved it. It’s a very nice aircraft. It lacked a bit of speed in comparison to the Lancaster, but- And it- I believe the Lanc carried a much- Quite a bit bigger bomb load. Also, it had larger wings, strange to say. But-
GT: Could they have made the Stirling better?
JM: It was better all round, yes.
GT: It was better than the Lancaster?
JM: Oh sorry, no, the Lancaster. The Lancaster was better all round, although I never flew in one, but I’m just going on information.
GT: And you, you left 7 Squadron just as the Lancasters were coming in?
JM: The first two arrived the day I pulled out, and I, I rushed down to have a quick look through one, and I had to be quick ‘cause there was a truck waiting for me to take me to the railway station [chuckles], I was going down to Leigh-on-Sea to join my wife.
GT: So they were pretty keen to, to- Once you’d finished your second tour to send you back to New Zealand, were they? Or did you stay in the UK for a while?
JM: No, we- I'd just done what you might call embarkation leave, and- One of the things I've never understood, why I got married while the war was on, it was a stupid thing to do and I’m surprised her father allowed us to, but he did [laughs]. Anyway, she was a wonderful, wonderful person my wife, we had seventy-three years together.
GT: Wonderful.
JM: Yeah, fantastic, very clever too, very, very talented.
GT: And you, you came back to New Zealand and where did you, you start from there? Nelson, Christchurch? Where did you move?
JM: Nelson.
GT: And you had a family?
JM: Actually my, my brother had a biscuit business in Nelson which unfortunately went, went bung eventually, but I was supposed to join him in the biscuit manufacturing business, but that never happened [chuckles].
GT: And you’ve had, your family obviously now since then, sons, daughters?
JM: Yeah, we’ve got a son and twin daughters, yes. Tony is, I think, seventy-three, seventy-two or seventy-three, and the girls- He's seventy-two I think, the girls are sixty-eight. Twin, twin girls [chuckles] yeah.
GT: Fabulous, so you, you’ve been telling me you’ve been interviewed a lot for your, your wartime exploits.
JM: Yes, I have, yes, I have.
GT: Who has interviewed you then? Newspapers, or television?
JM: Books and magazines mostly, I’ll show them to you.
GT: Yep certainly, and that’s why for the purpose of our interview here, Jake, your story has obviously been well documented, so we’re going to refer the International Bomber Command Centre to your- The interviews and the stories that have been said to you, which will give in a lot more detail your, your time with, particularly the RAF and the RNZAF, so that’s, that’s fascinating for us to know. Now, as far as your time military wise, was, was there anything you thought that they could’ve done better? Or, they were dealing with the best they could, with what they were given?
JM: No not really, we were well- We were reasonably well fed, I mean, not large meals but we had, you know, bacon and eggs, and that sort of thing which the civilians got very little of, if any. We were looked after with cigarettes and chocolates and things like that. They were very good. They gave us Horlicks tablets to suck on trips, and that kind of thing, you know? We were looked after, and I, I’d like to put this in too, that I think the New Zealand government have been wonderful to me since I came out. They’ve been really wonderful.
GT: You emigrated at the age of seventeen, went back to Blighty, fought in the war, come back to New Zealand and have had a wonderful life time here.
JM: Yeah.
GT: Fabulous.
JM: I have had a wonderful life, yeah. The three kids are wonderful, they’ve all done very, very well in life. No, they’re not waiting for my departure that’s for sure [laughs].
GT: And your next birthday, the 1st of August, how old will you be?
JM: Sorry?
GT: And on your next birthday, how old will you be?
JM: Ninety-eight.
GT: And I'm sure your- The folk who know you are very proud and pleased to know you, as a ninety-seven-year-old, you’re still very much able, and a driver [emphasis], you’ve just shown me that you’re an excellent driver by the automobile associations.
JM: [Laughs] I’m happier behind the wheel that I am on my legs actually. My legs are getting a little bit crotchety but no, I’m very happy behind the wheel of a car and-
GT: Fabulous.
JM: I think partly- That partly is due to the fact that I used to have a taxi business, I had a taxi business for about twelve years, so I've done a fair mileage [chuckles].
GT: Yeah, well that’s, that’s very pleasing to know, and so-
JM: Love it, prior to that, I was a company representative, used to cover the whole of the South Island [chuckles].
GT: So, you’ve driven much, much mileage.
JM: So, I've done a lot, a big, big mileage.
GT: The roads here in New Zealand aren’t particularly good for long distance driving at times.
JM: [Laughs] Yeah.
GT: Well, Jack I’m, I’m going to finish our interview here and then, then we’ll look at listing the material and the other interviews that you’ve been able to be a part of and publish, or have published on your behalf. So, I'm very grateful for you to- By appointment to meet me today in your home, your lovely place, and I will package this up for the IBCC and they will be very grateful to have your history, your time and your experiences of two tours ‘cause your sacrifice for your King and your countries [emphasis] pretty much was awesome, and I thank you for your service. Thank you, sir.
JM: You’re welcome.
GT: Ok, great, thank you then, bye-bye.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Marshall
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMarshallJ180116
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:28:26 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Jack went to New Zealand in 1937 and became a steward in a gentleman’s club in Napier, where he stayed two years until the war broke out. He joined the Royal Air Force and went to England where he did train at RAF Uxbridge to become an air gunner. With 115 Squadron he went to Operational Training Unit at RAF Marham and RAF Bassingbourn, where he spent time as an instructor. The squadron did three operations to Italy and on one occasion the Wellington aircraft iced up so badly that they went through the Alps at low attitude, rather than over. On landing, three engines cut out, with only three- or four-minute fuel left. Jack recalled two other incidents. One when they were attacked by two fighters and the other when their Wellington was shot down on the way back from Berlin. They lost an engine 40 miles off Great Yarmouth and had to escape in the dinghy before being rescued by a fishing trawler. The crew became members of the Goldfish Club. The crew were posted to RAF Oakington in where they joined 7 Squadron, carrying out 46 operations in Stirlings. Jack volunteered for the Pathfinder Force as a rear gunner. After the war Jack returned to New Zealand. Jack was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for a long and high standard of reliability and enthusiasm.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Tilly Foster
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Norfolk
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Italy
Alps
New Zealand
England--Great Yarmouth
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-11-15
1943-04-12
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
11 OTU
115 Squadron
7 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
Distinguished Flying Cross
ditching
Goldfish Club
Lancaster
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Marham
RAF Oakington
RAF Uxbridge
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/916/11160/PLambJ1702.2.jpg
85507b75ef454cf9a43249d5d0b3eefc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/916/11160/ALambJ170725.2.mp3
9cf54521a95dc48ea8288c3d35289d9d
Dublin Core
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Title
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Lamb, James
J Lamb
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with James Lamb (b. 1921, 1373978 Royal Air Force).
He served as ground crew with 75 New Zealand Squadron and 11 Squadron in Burma where he worked on Hurricanes and Spitfires.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lamb, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: Ok. We’re at Jim Lamb’s place in Edinburgh and I’m going to interview Jim so we’re just going to go through a few things and this is a precursor to the actual interview. So, Jim we’ve got microphones here and you can speak into that one and I this one and I’m going to set myself ongoing as well. But it just records it as we’re going. So this is not the actual interview Jim but I’m going to go through with you a couple of things. We chatted quite a bit yesterday about your, your time in the RAF. And a bit about your life and what you achieved. Now, can you please remember your service number?
JL: 978 was the last two.
GT: Yeah.
JL: That’s all.
GT: 978 was your last three.
JL: 978 1373978. That could have been it.
GT: 137.
JL: 1373978.
GT: 978.
JL: Funny I should remember a number like that without it meaning something.
GT: Ok. And you. Now just going to clarify a few things before I come into the interview and ask you a bit. You joined up as a aircraft technician.
JL: That’s all. Yes
GT: Yeah. Ok. And then later on you converted to be a pilot.
JL: No. I never said I was a pilot.
GT: You trained as a pilot or did you —
JL: No.
GT: No. No. Ok. So you went out to Burma as an aircraft technician.
JL: That’s it. Correct.
GT: Ok. So you worked on the Hurricanes etcetera.
JL: That’s it.
GT: That’s the story. Ok. That’s brilliant.
JL: On Wellingtons first. The Wimpy.
GT: Yeah.
JL: And on Hurricanes and Spitfires. That’s the three machines I worked on.
GT: Fabulous. Ok. And just to clarify was it 11 Squadron in Burma you —
JL: 11 Squadron.
GT: You were working on?
JL: 11 Squadron.
GT: Yeah. Good. Ok. What, what was your birth date? What was your birth date?
JL: 13th of November 1921.
GT: 13th of November. Right. And can you remember what medals you eventually got?
JL: Oh no. I got the usual. Victory, Defence, Burma.
GT: ‘39/45 Star.
JL: Star. And all that stuff.
GT: Ok.
JL: And —
GT: Did you ever apply for the Bomber Command clasp?
JL: I’ve got that as well. Yeah.
GT: You’ve got that on there as well.
JL: That’s about all I got.
GT: Ok.
JL: And the Defence and the Victory.
GT: But did you say those medals, you had them stolen or you’ve still, you’ve still got them.
JL: I don’t know where they are. I’ve no interest in them.
GT: Ok. But you did apply for them and you did get them initially.
JL: I’m not interested.
GT: No.
JL: I’ve forgot about it all.
GT: Ok.
JL: I’m not the least bit interested.
GT: Yeah.
JL: If you want to know the truth.
GT: Ok. Fair enough.
JL: I’ve got no —
GT: Fair enough OK. Well, Jim I’m going to talk about your, and ask you a bit about where you were born, where you grew up and then why and how you joined the RAF. Where you went in the RAF. Bearing in mind this is for the International Bomber Command Centre but they also would like to know what you did during your service and then what you did afterwards. So you and I chatted yesterday about what you did and you went to South Africa. So I’ll just ask you those questions. Yeah.
JL: Yeah.
GT: And then I’ll let you talk and tell us all about it. Is that ok with you?
JL: Well, quite frankly I don’t want to upset you but I’m really not interested. I want, I don’t want to recall back these things. My mind’s not, I just [pause] who would all this information go to?
GT: They, they have got documents here and we can go through those if you like and that’s, and that shows you that this will go to, goes to an archive that, that describes what each of one of you chaps did and went through and, and then there’s a photograph of you and there’s because ground crew, there’s not that many ground crew left and what they were trying to achieve is to —
JL: I see. I don’t want to upset you, or [pause] I just I’ve put it on the table I’m not interested.
GT: Yeah.
JL: I’ve done it. I’ve forgot about it. And that’s it.
GT: Ok. You told me a lot about it yesterday.
JL: That’s all. This is a conversation.
GT: Yeah.
JL: But to go and get it all written down. No. No.
GT: Ok. Fair enough. That’s quite your right. There’s no need to, to be, to be sorry about that and that’s fine. It’s —
JL: I’ve done it. I’ve done it. I was very happy with what I was doing and in the company I was in and I was very fortunate to be in it, I came through it and get home safe. And that’s, that’s story finished.
GT: Yeah. Fair enough.
JL: That’s, that’s it.
GT: It’s just, yeah chatting.
[pause]
JL: I’ve forgotten about it and [pause] that’s it. I don’t want any writing about it or nothing about it. I didn’t want it. I joined up for the war. I served the war as best as I could. I was lucky to get through it. And then I forgot it. That’s how I live.
GT: Yeah.
JL: I don’t go back on things.
GT: It’s nice to see you’ve got my 75 Squadron tie on.
JL: I always put that on.
GT: Yeah.
JL: I’ll never forget it.
GT: Yeah.
JL: I’ll never forget it but it’s, I often wear this when I go out. I had a wonderful, it’s terrible to say. There was a war and people got killed and maimed. But I enjoyed that period. Don’t ask me why. My sister can tell you I enjoyed it. I think when I joined up first —
GT: Hang on Jim. Hang on. Are you able to chat softer?
Other: Oh sorry.
GT: Yeah.
Other: We have to —
GT: Sorry. Carry on, Jim.
JL: When I joined up it was for three months. We’d all done that. And the war come along we had to accept the fact, and I lived the fact and I lived. I thought well I’m in it ‘til it’s finished or unless something and just about do what I have to and I wasn’t interested in much after that. I’d done the job I had to do and I was glad it was over and I got home safe. I never think back on it or talk about it. It’s part of your legacy. Sorry that thing that had to happen. And lasses and laddies never got back home. Some got back home blind, armless, legless. Nah.
GT: Because you and I, with the 75 Squadron Association have been pretty close over the last couple of years. But, but did you, did you know that there was an 11 Squadron Association as well?
JL: No.
GT: Yeah. I just found them on the internet this morning and of course they have their bit of history showing the Hurricane bomber 2Cs.
JL: Yeah.
GT: And then the Spitfires being out there. And did you know they ended up in Japan in 1946?
JL: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: But you’d come home by then, hadn’t you?
JL: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Because my dad was on J Force.
JL: Ah.
GT: And he was in Japan with 14 Squadron, New Zealand Air Force as a Squadron carpenter.
JL: I think if I can remember right I came home on the 10th of March 1946. I think it was.
GT: So you were on a boat for quite a bit to get home, were you?
JL: Yeah. The Windsor I think I was on. HMS Windsor. I think it took about twelve days then.
GT: Yeah.
JL: To come home.
GT: Gee whizz. But you must have stayed in Burma sometime after the war finished though. You stayed on there for a while did you?
JL: I got, I was only, I joined up. I wasn’t called up.
GT: So you were a volunteer. A volunteer reserve.
JL: I had the, so you got, when the war finished being out in Burma we all, the other guys not just me we got forms to fill out. Did we want to stay on and finish off our, or do we want to go home. I said, ‘I want to go back. I don’t want to be a regular in the Air Force.’ So I got, like me, we got home. No, weekends or service afterwards. I left there and when I left Burma I left the Royal Air Force. I was out and I came home a civilian. I was demobbed in Burma.
GT: That’s odd. I would have thought they would have brought you home all the way and then demobbed you here.
JL: That’s right. No. I said, ‘I’m finished.’ ‘When would you finish?’ I said, ‘I’d finish now if I could.’ So he said, ‘Right. Well, your term is finished,’ he said, ‘When you get back home you’ve got no other association with the Royal Air Force.’ I said, ‘That’s quite correct.’
GT: Gosh. That’s huge.
JL: Then I went as well as I could.
GT: Yeah. Because you said you joined up straight from —
JL: The day the war started.
GT: When the war started.
JL: The war started at 10 o’clock one Sunday morning. The 3rd of September. I had joined up before the afternoon was out. My aunt said, ‘Where have you been?’ I said, ‘Joining up.’ She said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘It’s only going to last three months so everybody says. I want three months at the government’s expense.’ And I come home on the 10th of March 1946. A long three months eh? No. I suppose being young in the war. War is an adventure. It was an adventure for me. It’s not a stupid thing to say but it’s an unbelievable thing to say. I went through the war and never, never had any thought of not getting back home. When I left my mother said to me, our mother said to me, she says ‘Oh, you shouldn’t have to do that but don’t worry,’ she said, ‘You’ll come back home alright. And I worked through that years with that there. I was in things that I never thought I would be able to take but I would. Somebody was looking after me.
GT: Well, especially because you told me that when you joined up you went to 75 Squadron at Feltwell on Wellingtons. And then Mildenhall. And then Newmarket on Stirlings.
JL: Yeah.
GT: And then off to Burma. So, so you spent how much time would you have spent on 75? Three years. No? Two years perhaps. Because 75 Squadron was at Feltwell from April ’40 to August ’40. Then Mildenhall to January ’41. Back at Feltwell, Oakington and then Newmarket.
JL: That’s correct.
GT: June ’43.
JL: Imphal.
GT: So you worked on 75 Squadron.
JL: Yeah.
GT: Right through from 1940 to around about the end of ’42 or after. And that because they then went to Newmarket and is that about when you were chosen to go to Burma and left? Left there for there do you think? Would that be about it? I’m trying to get your history for the 75 Squadron history for you, you see.
JL: Wellington. There’s the Stirling there. Then the Lancaster.
GT: Yeah. See there.
JL: The old Wimpy was the best. Everybody will tell you that. You could knock the hell out of the thing but still the engines were running you go home [laughs] That’s strange eh? It was. But then again you’re one of a few hundred thousand young laddies who join up. You join up because you all think you’re in the movies sort of thing. I would never join up again. No. But we’d done it. We didn’t have to do it. At that time I volunteered to do it. Everybody said it was three months. It would be over. And this young gentleman then believed them [laughs] And I realised after a few years they told everybody the same thing to get you bloody in. But Helen can tell you everybody tried to make like some of the laddies that I used to meet and that, ‘I wish I hadn’t done this. I wish I was home.’ I said, ‘You’re making yourself ill for no reason whatsoever. You’ve done it and you’ll not get out until they let us out. To make yourself sick. You can tell everybody I shouldn’t have done it. It’s a ridiculous statement.’ When you say to the government people to join up that’s it. There’s no saying, ‘I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it.’ But as I said to you and it’s a terrible thing to say. It sounds like a lie even but it’s not a lie. I enjoyed it. I don’t know how. It’s maybe other men it’s probably the same as I. I suppose it’s how your nature is in your head. You say, oh let’s, it’s like if I smash that chair. I can’t say I’m sorry and make the chair back again. It’s maybe a different way to look at life. And when I was in Burma, you know, ‘I wish I could go home.’ I said, ‘There’s no point in wishing and get yourself sick. You’ll not get home ‘til all being well they’ll send us home. To go around every day like that and moping. You’re only damaging this and making yourself ill. You make the best of it don’t you? When I was in Burma things were ups and down. But I just got as if I was working in here. You’ve got to train yourself. To make yourself ill for a reason that you can’t alter is being silly. You’ve done it. You can’t say, ‘Right. I’ll go home now. I’ve had enough.’ No. No. You get home when they send you home. There many a young man I used to say that to. I used to say enough you know you’ll no you’ve done this, you wish you had done that. I said, ‘I’ve done it because,’ I said, ‘I was one of many thousands that believed the war would last three months and I believed these people [laughs] That’s a bit, the big boss decided I had to. I got through it all right and got home so you’ve just got to forget all the ups and downs. There was many wonderful times. I met wonderful young lads. Friends. True friends. 75 Squadron was, it was a different. It was a different Squadron. It was [pause] the CO from the officers down, and the Group Captain Lucas. A gentleman. There was never any silly, there wasn’t a rank, there was Popeye Lucas used to come on a Sunday and have his lunch with the whole Squadron in to the dining room. And he went to the officer’s dining room. He went and had lunch on Sunday was with his men. It was a different Squadron. It was a different, it’s a pity some of the British Squadrons hadn’t learned from him because I went to another one and oh boy. No. It’s not that there’s got to be somebody commanding. But you’ve got to command to get respect. Not get hate, eh? And he’s got to know when he feels that he’s got your respect which you should give the whole thing runs smoothly. But if you going [unclear] No. I was. I enjoyed the war. That’s as I said that seems a stupid bloody statement but I couldn’t, well nobody got out anyway. Excuse me. And I used to tell the lads that used to say to me. Many. ‘I wish this was over. I wish I’d never come in. I wish I’d never done that.’ I said, ‘Stop the wishing. Start thinking and enjoy it. You come in to do it. You can’t get out. Make the best of it.’ Do the job you joined up to do and that’s it. But that’s how I felt in my younger days. And I always enjoyed it. Aye. I never got, I don’t know why I never got into trouble. Them things. Coming in at two in the morning instead of one minute to twelve and got away with it [laughs] Oh dear. I used to say that at one Squadron I left, Captain Lucas said, ‘Sorry Jim,’ he said, ‘You’re finished with it now.’ I said, ‘Oh yes.’ He said, ‘Well, you’ll be glad.’ I said, ‘Yes. We should all be glad that the war is over.’ And I said, ‘But I enjoyed it in a way.’ ‘Why?’ I said, ‘Well, the things I’ve done.’ He said, ‘So you didn’t mind being in.’ I said, ‘No. No. I’ve done what I wanted to do.’ If I wanted to come back at two in the morning I came back at two in the morning.’ And he said, ‘And you were never caught?’ I said, ‘No. I made certain arrangements that I wouldn’t get caught.’ [laughs] Before you do something wrong think about how to defend yourself if you think you’re going to get caught for doing it wrong. So it never, there was only once. The way I used to enter back in and I was in the front of the CO. He says, ‘Where have you managed to be out ‘til two. Getting back here at two. Are you drunk?’ I said, ‘I don’t drink.’ Which I didn’t. I said, ‘No. I said I met nice company,’ I said, ‘And this company took me home. I stayed in there and her dad had been wounded badly in the war in the Middle East and he had [pause] Yes. When I look back. And he had the —
GT: She’s going to take a photo of us.
JL: I’ve had a new camera. I’m not paying for a new one. No way. Oh dear.
GT: Try again. Try again. That’s it.
JL: Yes. Thumbs up. Happy to meet you all.
Other: Good. Good.
GT: Thanks.
JL: Yes. It was [pause] I would say that I talk on behalf of everybody [laughs] A Squadron that, there was never another Squadron in my heart. It could never have come to the level of 75 New Zealand Squadron. From the boss to the toilets attendant we were one. We went on leave. This is, you were sent for your leaves. Oh, in a second. Yes. Right. And you come back. Oh yeah wait a minute. Yes. Yes. You come back on the 12th. And you went away. Didn’t need that. 75 New Zealand. You went away when your tape were there and some days I’ve come back early. Like others. It was a wonderful Squadron. I’ve come back two days early. ‘Back already?’ They said?’ Oh, a bit of dancing and met [unclear] As I say, I go way back. I enjoyed my time at 75 New Zealand Squadron. It was, there was something different about it. Because Group Captain Lucas was only private Lucas. He was one, and we respected him. He’d come and sit down beside the guys if there was a football match on. If one of the Squadrons were playing a football he’d sit beside you and share cigarettes and have a smoke and talk. And we all respected him. I don’t think any, anybody took advantage of him. He was, he made everybody feel we were one. He had a gift. Group Captain Lucas. A man. Yes. You meet the ones you remember. But it was a lovely happy Squadron. It was. It’s a fact that you always remember. The lads in it. Yes. From the group captain down. The guys who were watching the football match and he would wander amongst them and stand and watch it himself, take his cigarette out and the guys near him, hand them a cigarette. Different. You would never have got the British guy doing that. They were officers. Sir, you know. Yes. I remember that. I once told an officer, I said, ‘Don’t you shout at me.’ I says, and another thing, ‘Don’t shout Lamb either when you want to speak.’ I said, ‘Have you ever read the book? The Service Manual. That’s the do’s and the don’ts,’ I said, ‘Have you ever read it?’ ‘I haven’t actually.’ I said, ‘I’ll read some of it to you. The most important part,’ I says, ‘Everybody’s got a rank. From private up to you, to the admiral to the super general is a rank. And if you want to call on me and speak to me never shout Lamb. Shout my rank,’ and he said.’ An officer is in the Air Force says, ‘Corporal Lamb,’ Corporal Lamb will come and see you. Don’t just shout Lamb because I’ll ignore you.’ I said, Because that’s, if you want to take it further put me on a charge and that’s what I’ll say in front of whoever makes the charge.’ I said, ‘We’re not dogs, you know,’ I said, ‘We’re human beings.’ It’s just that. Then I got on well with him. He said, ‘You speak your mind.’ I said, ‘I speak my mind if I think it’s the right thing to do.’ I said, ‘Otherwise,’ I says, ‘I keep quiet.’ I says, ‘But this Lamb business. I don’t him,’ I says, ‘I know Mr Lamb, Jim Lamb, Jimmy Lamb, James Lamb but I don’t know Lamb.’ [laughs] No. You’ve got, you know, you’re a young man you join up in a war. Be a man. If you see things that’s not appertaining how it should be. An officer should treat you, the Squadron or anybody you speak up. You don’t stand like a wee boy. No. I was once put on a charge once for speaking back and I said, ‘Who will take me in front of the charge?’ I said, ‘I’d like the group captain to do it.’ And they said, ‘Well, I don’t know.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m asking for it. I’m the one who’s going to get punished and I want the group captain to do it.’ And I did get, you see, ‘What was your problem?’ ‘Well,’ I says, ‘To start with what I was put on a charge for,’ I says, ‘I don’t think it was necessary,’ I says, ‘And at no point in talking of putting me on a charge I said the only person that can sit and understand it I said was the man that’s running this Squadron and that’s you. Get on with it.’ When I finished he sent for the guy who was going to put me on a charge and made him say he was sorry. I didn’t, I was afraid of nobody. If you know the truth in there and you can speak it you speak it. I was well known. No. You’re not, you didn’t join up as a private or able seaman or whatever you want to call it. You joined up as a man. Not to be treated like a dog. So if you’re getting wrong treated I put in for it. I spoke up to a few I tell you. I had to. And I explained it to them and they got into bloody trouble not me. The super general or admiral or whatever he might be and you’ve got men under you eh? They respect you. You’re the man in command and figure out things but you don’t treat us like bloody dogs. We’re men that’s got to serve you. Men. You treat us as men. But some didn’t. They thought they were something great. I was walking across the square one day. That’s the big parade ground. Not that you’ll know that without me telling you that and I heard a voice shouting, ‘Lamb. Lamb. Lamb.’ And I kept walking. So he ran around. He didn’t come on the square. This bloody stupid officer. He ran around and he’s waiting until I got to the other side. So he stood in front of me. I went to attention and I saluted him. He says, ‘Tell me.’ I said, ‘What do you want me for?’ He said, ‘I feel like putting you on a charge.’ I said, ‘What for?’ He says, ‘I shouted for you and I shouted for you in [unclear].’ I said, ‘You never shouted for me.’ He says, ‘I did.’ I said, ‘No. You didn’t, sir.’ I said, ‘My rank and my name or if we were friendly Jim Lamb but I’m not Lamb. I have got a name. I’m not a dog.’ [laughs] ‘Dismissed.’ See, I used to say that to many lads if they get upset about something or something is getting done to you, you speak up. You don’t go away or keep it to yourself or to the others, and that, and that, and that. No. You’re a man. Look at them. He’s the same as you. He only gets a better bloody salary. That’s what I told this one. No. I don’t know how some lads took it. There were some officers that were sent down from above and they were the mighty ones eh? They were stupid. I treated superior officers with respect but in here they were a man in uniform just like me. I didn’t have the mentality to raise to be the commanding officer. Well that’s I didn’t have the education. I was an ordinary school boy and in my young days the thought about a war and you get to think if there’s a war I want to do this and you learn more. A world at peace you grow up and you learn what you want to learn so you get into life and make money. You forget about having to go and do this to the guy next to you who has probably been a toilet attendant [laughs] No. There was no better to do. I never looked at an officer as something great. He was a man that had a bit more in here or he had a love for being higher in the Navy, higher ranked or Air Force or the Army. He wanted to get on in that in do something. I joined up to go in to the Royal Air Force. And that’s what I joined up to do and I was in it and I got paid for what I was doing. I had no ambition to be group captain or one of the lads. And I enjoyed my service. I enjoyed, it’s a terrible thing to say I even enjoyed out in Burma because you were, how we were brought up. Yes. As a family. You had to make yourself prepared. And I used to hear our late father talk about the 1914 war so how what they had to do in it which was a terrible war compared to the 1940 war. But we had to, you’ve got to learn that you’d joined something that you’d got to obey but I also learned if they want you to obey that they have to treat you properly. It’s not the first officer that I’ve kept walking past because he shouted just my last name. He said, ‘On a charge.’ I said, ‘That’s fair enough. In front of the CO.’ I think I had three that I can remember. He said, ‘You know what you’ve done?’ I said, ‘What did I do?’ He said, ‘You ignored this officer. He spoke to you and you didn’t.’ I said, ‘Yes. I’d do again in front of you if he’d done what he done to me.’ I said, ‘I’ve got a rank.’ He says, ‘I know. I can see.’ I says, ‘I didn’t mean it that way. I’m just telling you what I think.’ I said, ‘And I’m going to address him by it.’ I says, ‘And when out in civilian life.’ I said, ‘I’m either called Jim, James, Jimmy or Mr Lamb.’ So I said, ‘in the Air Force my name is Lamb. And when somebody shouts at me from a square that they want to speak to me, a higher rank right, I’ve also got and I want shouting on my rank before my name. He can call me Mr Lamb if he wants.’ ‘Dismissed.’ I wished I could have taped.
GT: So, now, just, just to get your name correct. Is it Jim Lamb and nothing in between? Jim. James.
JL: No. Just plain. Some options —
GT: James. Jim.
JL: Some people call me Jimmy.
GT: Yeah.
JL: And some people how could I say? Some of the dolly birds they call me James [laughs]
GT: So I can put you down as James. Then Jim Lamb.
JL: Yes.
GT: Is that good enough for the record?
JL: We just [pause] And even in Scotland here anybody christened John they’re never just shouted John. They’re Johnny. Johnny. It’s not just John. You’re Johnny. Just the way we are here. We’ve all got our different, you know. I was called many things [laughs] but you can’t write them. I can spell them [laughs]
GT: Yeah. And we’ve got your number service now was 137.
JL: 3 978.
GT: Brilliant. Ok. That’s confirmed there and you joined up as an aircraft technician.
JL: Yes.
GT: Was it AC1 or AC2.
JL: AC1.
GT: AC1.
JL: I can’t remember.
GT: Yeah.
JL: If it was AC1. I can’t, to be honest with you so —
GT: And when you left the RAF what rank were you or classification then? AC2
JL: The same as I went in.
GT: Ok. You didn’t get promoted then to corporal?
JL: No way. I should have been demobbed as an ex-convict. No. I didn’t want any. Not for me. I said no. I just wanted to be one of the lads.
GT: Yeah. You were on 75 Squadron when James Ward was there.
JL: That’s correct. I knew the man.
GT: You knew the man.
JL: I knew him. I had the honour of knowing him.
GT: Can you tell me a bit about him please?
JL: Well, he was one of the best pilots on the unit then. And as a, we were one. 75 Squadron was one. From Group Captain Lucas down to the toilet attendant we were one. We were one. He wasn’t that and you weren’t this and I wasn’t this or whatever. No. We were one. We got the honours. We were the top Bomber Command in Bomber Command. 75 Squadron. Did you know that? We were the top of Bomber Command because we were one and even if we had a big meet the thing on one of the top of the Royal Air Force goody guys came along and he was surprised at the difference. No difference in officers, men. How we were one. And somebody should have told them. You see the point is that the officers that were the best officers come from a wealthy family. They went to school. Their family background life was Navy, military, Air Force. They grew up as that. And when their sons grew up, right, they grew up much like we all grow up and when they went into the army or whatever it was as an officer they were just like part of us, and they treated you. It was the guys that were nothing and managed to become a first lieutenant or something. He thought he was great and he treated them like animals. I spoke up against them. He was something. You had to jump this and jump. Nah. I said, ‘We are all one,’ I said, ‘Never forget,’ I says, ‘When we go in to battle,’ I said, ‘A bullet has got no names on it, eh?’
GT: So, James Ward was, was a really good pilot.
JL: Oh yes.
GT: Do you remember the night that he managed to crawl out on the wing?
JL: Oh, I know all about that. Yes.
GT: Yeah. Can you tell what —
JL: Put the fire out. Yes. Coming back from a raid. Some of the ack ack hit one of the engines and they went on fire and he took his ‘chute, he went out and he put the flame out. A man like that deserves to get through it, eh. I remember that.
GT: Do you remember the crew? The people.
JL: Oh, I can’t remember all the names now. But I can’t even remember, I’d have to sit down hard and try and picture. It was a wonderful, l it was a wonderful Squadron eh, I think it was. Well, we were. They were the top bomber Squadron in Bomber Command. 75 New Zealand Squadron. We got the top honours. The wonderful, it’s a, it’s a terrible thing to say, it was enjoyable years. That’s why. It was just different.
GT: What was it like working on the Wellingtons? As you were an aircraft technician.
JL: Yes.
GT: What was it like working on the Wellington bombers and the engines and the air frames?
JL: It was —
GT: Did you —
JL: It was like working on a car. It was a wonderful aircraft. I’ll tell you something you can fly it to hell and back with that thing and if you hit [unclear] the body to hell. As long as one of the engines was going. One come back one time and the condition of it. It had no [unclear] on it and they had all been lucky. Some of them had got a bit wounded in that. They must have been shattered with it. Yeah. But they landed it. It was a wonderful aircraft the Wimpy. The Wellington. Done its job. I say then of course they started going on to the Lancaster and blah blah blah but —
GT: So, when you were working on the Wellington what did you do? Engines and the airframe and the wheels and the gun turrets and all that? What was your speciality?
JL: Airframe. Yeah. Kept on one and then at the school we’d go to, whatever and what the hell then. That come back. I got myself a book and I started writing it down. So I read a book about how this happened. The ailerons and the rudders and blah blah blah and how you fix them and that. So when I went in the classes and I listened. So I did my job I had to do and I’d done it as well as I could. And then I went from that out to Burma. And then Burma we were on the old Hurricanes just as they were getting finished. And the Hurricanes were put to one side and the Spit came out. Worked on them. 75 New Zealand Squadron was, 11 Squadron was in Burma. They still, ‘I wish I was home. I wish this.’ But I enjoyed it. You’ve got to try and fool yourself in that you’re enjoying it. Making yourself ill saying, ‘Oh, I wish I was there. I wish. No point in wishing in the world. I used to tell many young lads. They used to say to me, ‘You’re drunk.’ ‘You’re mad.’ No. It’s a adventure in life that was. Burma didn’t worry me. That was of course as I said to you before the main reason was our mother. She said, ‘Don’t you worry,’ she said, ‘You’ll come back alright.’ And I lived through that. Years of war. But that and here and here. I don’t think [pause] I can never remember being afraid or frightened. I ran out to get cover and all that naturally. But in one place in Burma I think I did the hundred yards in a second never mind anything else when we got heavily bombed one night. And of course don’t forget in Burma the planes, all the ammunition and the bombs and everything was all in one, and the lads. Your tent or wherever you had one. Eventually in Burma you ended up with the heavy monsoons. They were, I remember one hell of a night. Most of our aircraft was destroyed. I was lying on the ground through the night isn’t it? Boy I ran that night. I could have been the world’s outmost champion. No one could ever beat me. The flames were going up and bullets flying. You couldn’t see. You could hear. I’ll never forget that night. But you do it. I suppose the training. I don’t know what you’d call it. It wasn’t you were frightened. You ran to get to safety. And then I, I got thanked for that. I was running and there was a guy who had got some of the splinters lying and I looked at him and I was running on and I thought oh I can’t. I ran back and I got him. And I carried him out of the area that he could have got hurt with some of the shrapnel and that, you know. But I was going to leave him. I was quite happy to run by myself to get away. But I thought, no. I can’t. I can’t. So I went back. I managed to carry him as far as I could. And then when we got in to the shelter. It’s a long time ago. And he used to write to me. When the war finished he went to the states. He used to write. Norman. He stopped writing. You know, you keep writing the same things. But I’d done it. I wasn’t going to [laughs] That’s the truth. I thought too bad. I thought, no. I think every man would have done the same. You, you’re I’d not say, frightened is not the right word. You’re trying to get, make sure you’re getting away from it. I’m the one who broke all the records I’ll tell you, boy could I run, and I did run for sport. But that night I could have broke the world record. And I see that man there groaning and I thought no. I just couldn’t. It’s not bravery or nothing. It’s just how your heart is. I heard him. He was still. As I passed I heard him groaning so obviously he hadn’t been knocked out altogether. I got back and I picked him up and I carried him ‘til I had to lie down and have a rest. We laid down in safety. The bombing raid was over and we all got gathered together. It was a long time.
GT: So, that was with Spitfires in Burma.
JL: Burma.
GT: So, what, the Japanese were artillery or were they dropping bombs from aircraft?
JL: They were dropping bombs from aircraft. On the Squadron you know where they had the fighters as well. And but that night we all heard that I don’t know for sure, we all heard, there were some didn’t get so lucky. One of them was one that would have been getting it anyway if you see what I mean because he had given information to the Japanese. So the story came out. I don’t know. And he lit lights for them. They knew exactly where we were. All the aircraft. Oh what a night that was. I could have been a runner at the Olympics. I was a good runner when I was young anyway but that gave me some extra speed. But I went back and got this bloke. I just thought too bad. You’re hurt. We’re all different, eh?
GT: So, the after working in Bomber Command and then effectively the Far East Fighter Command.
JL: Yeah.
GT: Did you notice a difference between Bomber Command and a fighter command Squadrons? Was there a difference that you noticed?
JL: No. It was instead of say five or seven in Bomber Command in an aircraft come back you were there and back and you were all one. It was up there when they all got down safe they would become all one just the same and they didn’t just come back on their own. They waited ‘til he landed and he landed and he and there. And then we all went and thanks very much. But 75 New Zealand Squadron I could have signed on for twenty five years with it. It was if Popeye Lucas. That was the finest group captain I ever met. Group Captain Lucas.
GT: Do you know which particular aircraft he flew? Did he fly just one Wellington bomber?
JL: No. As far as I know in the war he had his own little aircraft.
GT: Did he have nose art? Because there was one particular Wellington bomber with a soda siphon that was shooting bombs. Do you remember that one? Because I think —
JL: I can’t remember.
GT: I think that one was Popeye’s.
JL: It was just, but on a Sunday mornings. Sunday morning, Sunday lunch he took the grace. He was one of us. I will say, well I wasn’t around any others but I must say he must have been the most respected CO in the whole world. Everybody liked Popeye, and they called him Popeye.
GT: Did the officers or the air crew mix much with the ground crew?
JL: Oh yes.
GT: At the time.
JL: You were at [pause] there was no sort of you were an officer or a flight sergeant or whatever it was but you could come along and say that I was your mechanic. One of the mechanics. Aircraftman, eh? You could be called up, ‘Do you want a drink?’ Into to the sergeant’s mess or the officer’s mess. Never, no one would have said anything. That was 75 New Zealand Squadron. We were one. Off parade we were men. Somebody should write a book about 75 New Zealand Squadron. I think that’s why it was happy. It was a happy Squadron. That I can tell you. And you’d often say, ‘I hope my leave’s up. My leave’s up isn’t it?’ I enjoyed it.
GT: Do you remember in the sergeant’s mess? The footprints on the roof? Because I think that was Popeye Lucas that did that.
JL: Aye.
GT: Do you do you remember seeing that at all?
JL: Yes. You know it’s just a pity I hadn’t taken more interest but I’ll tell you something. That was a Squadron that everybody loved. We were, we were one. We were you must well of course you’ll know. We were number one in Bomber Command. We were top because we were one Squadron, eh? The toilet attendant to the CO.
GT: How many aircraft did you manage to get up each night? Because you only had two flights of Wellingtons and that’s what? Twenty four aircraft?
JL: Yeah.
GT: So, how many would you be able to get up each night for a raid? The whole twenty four generally or just some?
JL: Oh, it’s many times. I went a few times over with them
GT: Did you?
JL: Most of us did. We thought well if you don’t come back we’re not going to get punished anyway.
GT: So you would sneak on to the aircraft for a raid or two.
JL: To go over. You don’t think nothing of it. We lost very few aircraft, 75 New Zealand Squadron. ‘I’m coming with you.’ Well, I mean. So you went with them you weren’t going to be punished anyway. You were punished for going.
GT: Do you remember which ones you went on?
JL: Oh, I don’t know. I’m trying to remember the guy’s name. I must sit down hard and try one night. He was like a film actor. One of these tough goings you know. Yes. I’m on, and his crew were, it was twin brothers, twins, front and rear gunner when I went with them.
GT: Monk? Was their surname Monk?
JL: I can’t remember.
GT: Or Dodd.
JL: I couldn’t tell you but I know one was a front gunner and the other was in the tail. But there was not a squadron, no wonder we were number one in Bomber Command there was no Squadron I think not being in the only one that had the happiness of that one.
GT: Did you in the aircraft trade mix with the armourers much? Was there much rivalry?
JL: No.
GT: Or did you work together?
JL: Never the Army came in.
GT: The armourers that bombed the aircraft up. Not the Army. The armourers. When the armourers came in you worked together.
JL: Oh yes.
GT: Yeah.
JL: I told you. I’ve told many people. I think there must be something wrong with me. I enjoyed it. It’s a, it’s a stupid thing to say in a way but I did and you came home on leave I used to say, ‘I’ll go back tomorrow.’ I was glad to get back. I would say if they can showed things you find that 75 New Zealand Squadron was top. It was a, we were a unit. We weren’t in a war. There was a happiness. Somebody will find the right words, but you never thought about the war in 75 New Zealand Squadron.
GT: Did the Germans attack Feltwell where you were at any time? Do your remember being under attack by the Luftwaffe?
JL: Oh, Britain generally was. We, I don’t think [pause] I can’t remember. I’ve a feeling that there was one night there was a bit of a shenanigan went on. And I think one aircraft got hit on the ground actually. If I sit down and think enough things come back. Yeah. That’s it finished. It’s never finished. But I’ll tell you something I could have signed on for twenty five years with 75 New Zealand Squadron.
GT: Wow.
JL: It wasn’t a Squadron. It was a, I don’t know. From the group captain, officers down to the ones that work in the toilets. We were one.
GT: So after the war did you keep in contact with any New Zealanders from the squad? From 75?
JL: It all disappears. Yes.
GT: Not Popeye Lucas even.
JL: I met one at a big function I was in, in London. One of the crews that I knew. Of all the things that happened it’s just when you start thinking and then you, that’s what I remember and then later on something else comes into here. But I would say that 75 New Zealand Squadron if I was writing a book I would say it was the most proficient and happiest Squadron in the whole of the Air Force. People come back from leave early. [laughs]
GT: Indeed. High praise.
JL: Me too. We got home and I said to my mother, ‘I think I’ll make my way back.’ Mad.
GT: Yeah.
JL: But that’s the happiness. If you ever write a book you write that down. 75 New Zealand Squadron was the most proficient and happy Squadron I think there must have been. We were. From the top to the bottom.
GT: So how come you ended up in Burma? You had to leave 75 Squadron for Burma. What happened there?
JL: No. No. Similarly out there, there was quite a lot of losses and they had to start getting so the new lads coming in getting trained they were taking ones that were trained and went over there. So I was told, ‘Your next move is Burma.’ I thought well fair enough. And I come home. Had my seven days and then I’m lying out there. Jumping the gun, not a lie. I didn’t know I was going to Burma. But I know I was going in a boat. That bit I did know. And I’ll give a good laugh. I was on the ocean and I’m like this at the rail and a wee laddie next to me crying eh. A laddie like myself. ‘What’s up with you?’ He said to me, ‘Where are we going? Where are we going? I said, ‘Oh we’re going to be alright,’ I said, ‘We’re going to the States to get [unclear].’ ‘Are we?’ he said, Yeah.’ I says aye a lot here, Air Force and Army and Navy were sent out to America to train them. Did you know that? I said, ‘We’re going to America.’ He said, ‘Is that right? We landed in Burma. He said, ‘I hope I’m not going to fly with you.’ [laughs] Were going to America.
GT: You got on. Gosh. So you went from bomber aircraft.
JL: Yeah.
GT: And radial engines to fighter aircraft with Merlins. And you have, did you have any training on the Merlin engines once you left Bomber Command or did you just get sent to Burma and there’s an engine.
JL: Done it there. Yeah.
GT: Was it? They gave you no training.
JL: Aye. But you’re, let’s put it this, I think, the way I put it. You’re young. It’s excitement and this is different you know and you think ok you’re all Errol Flynn’s eh[laughs] The lasses loved you eh?
GT: So did you actually serve in Burma or was it Ceylon where the squadron, 11 Squadron was based? Because they started out in Ceylon.
JL: 75 New Zealand Squadron.
GT: No. Sorry. Carry on.
JL: 75 Squadron was here.
GT: Yeah.
JL: And then I was posted from 75 New Zealand Squadron to 11 Squadron and I went there and I thought oh. Well, the weather was good. But you’ve got to, as I’ve said to many a young lad, ‘We can’t get out of it. You can’t alter it. Why alter this and this. Enjoy it, eh. There’s no way you can change it.’ But Helen said, I said to Helen, I’m ashamed to say this to people but I enjoyed it. It’s a, I don’t know well the thing is the war was on. You weren’t put into it. You volunteered to go in to it. So just get on with it. There’s no point in saying I’ve changed my mind. There’s no changing your mind. No. But there was a crowd of you. We were all the same and that’s where you get to make real friends, eh? Because maybe one day you’ll depend. I’m glad you’re there or I’m there. It’s a different comradeship. That’s how you, you depended on each other. And at any one time fortunately they used to, the snipers if they got around especially in Burma it’s either the head officer they tried to find because there were no rank anyway. But they had way of finding out who gave the command. That’s the one to try and kill. And the doctor. So there were a couple of times they managed to get the doctor managed, they managed to get the doctor but the orderlies, medical orderlies, they took over. They were just as anybody had enough knowledge to get you better. Burma was an adventure. Ah yes. And then shall we say typical but I’m quite glad it happened. I wouldn’t have been anywhere [laughs] I’d have been stuck in Scotland.
GT: Yeah.
JL: What an excuse. And unpaid travel. Holiday travel. But generally all these years in one sense it was [pause] your mum and dad at home or your sisters and brothers they all worried about you and that. You missed them. They all looked out for you but as far as I’m concerned I enjoyed myself. I made it enjoyment. I’m not talking about I wasn’t afraid about bullets or nothing like that hey. I’m not talking about bravery. I made up my mind to enjoy it the best I could. I wish I was here. I wish I was home. I wish I was getting home, you make yourself ill for nothing because there’s no way you could alter it. I’ve told many that. I thought [unclear] around making a big joke of it all and enjoying yourself. Yes. I should write a book, eh?
GT: Now, you said you were born 13 November 1921.
JL: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And that was here in Edinburgh.
JL: Yes.
GT: And you had how many brothers?
JL: What was that?
GT: How many brothers did you have?
JL: Brothers?
GT: Ahum.
JL: One.
GT: One. And how many sisters?
JL: He was in the army. Sisters? Three.
GT: Three. And, and your father’s business was, was carpentry.
JL: Building trade.
GT: Building trade.
JL: A building business. Yes.
GT: Ok. And you joined when you were seventeen or eighteen? I think you said you joined about September 1939.
JL: 1939.
GT: Is that about right?
JL: That’s right.
GT: Ok. So you’d have been about seventeen. So you had your eighteenth birthday.
JL: Yes. Because everyone thought it was going to last three months.
GT: Months.
JL: So I hurried away and joined the same day.
GT: Where did you do your training? Your initial RAF training.
JL: Was it London? Where was it now?
GT: Halton.
JL: Imphal? No. That’s where I went to in Burma. Where the hell did I do my training?
GT: You must have learned how to march and iron your uniform somewhere.
JL: Not far from London anyway.
GT: Yeah. Not far from there.
JL: What was the name in London. A training area.
GT: Hendon. Northolt?
JL: There’s be some brothel over there [laughs] [unclear] anyway.
GT: So then they sent you up to Feltwell to be with 75 Squadron. And then if we look at the map here we’re just looking at 75 Squadron moved from Feltwell to Mildenhall.
JL: That’s right.
GT: To Feltwell, Oakington, and then by then Newmarket in November ’42.
JL: Newmarket. Yes.
GT: Yeah. And the Stirlings arrived about that same time. So you worked on Stirlings for a little while.
JL: Yeah.
GT: And then you probably, what? Were moved to Burma sometime end of 1942.
JL: That’s correct.
GT: That would be about right. Yeah. That’s just trying to get your records, record correct. And on 11 Squadron you worked on Hurricane 2Cs. Mark 2Cs I see on the record. Hurricanes.
JL: Well I said, the Wimpy. That’s all I can remember now.
GT: Ok.
JL: We called it the Wimpy as you know.
GT: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. And so —
JL: And then in Burma it was the Hurricanes first and then the Spitfire.
GT: Spitfire. Do you remember what mark of Spitfire you worked on there?
JL: Oh no. You’ve got me there.
GT: Ok. They were big and powerful though?
JL: I wasn’t that interested in them actually. To be honest with you.
GT: And, and after the, after you came back from the war you came back to Edinburgh about 1946.
JL: Must have. When did I come back? The war finished.
GT: September.
JL: ‘44
GT: ’45. August September ‘45
JL: The war finished.
GT: Yeah.
JL: I got home on, I think March ‘46.
GT: You swanned around somewhere, didn’t you?
JL: I was quite happy about that. Swanning around. Just come back.
GT: And you took over your dad’s business when you got back.
JL: Well, my dad was here. Yes.
GT: Yeah.
JL: Worked for my dad and dad left us and I carried on the business. And my brother was, he was interested in, my brother was a very good carpenter. He made eighteenth century chairs and all that. That was his job. My brother. He was very clever.
GT: And you didn’t have that skill either.
JL: Anyway, we grew up. A wonderful family. We were very lucky. We used to always say and I mean this we should always thank above. As I used to say our mother and father was made in heaven and then sent down to have us.
GT: Wow. And you —
JL: We wanted for nothing.
GT: No. You met and married a lovely lady.
JL: Yes. Yes. I was at a dance in Edinburgh and I was always, I’m talking about myself now but I can’t help it, a good ballroom dancer. My family, my dad’s sisters and that were all dancers so I was taught properly and I was a good dancer. And that’s how I met my wife. Somebody said to the lady I’d been dancing with, ‘You see him dancing there. He’s a good dancer. Go and ask him for a dance.’ That’s how I met my wife.
GT: And that was, what was your wife-to-be’s name?
JL: Elizabeth.
GT: Elizabeth.
JL: Or called whatever they call them now. Betty
GT: Betty
JL: Aye.
GT: Then how many children did you have from there?
JL: Only the two.
GT: You got married nineteen forty —
JL: ‘46
GT: 1946. That was quick. After coming back.
JL: I think it was 1946. I had known her before I come home for good. I forget now.
GT: It’s alright. And you had one son and one daughter.
JL: Yes. I called them samples. There were no other samples to get. So that was enough.
GT: I’ll make a note here. Samples. And what’s your son’s name?
JL: James.
GT: James again. Yeah. And your daughter’s name?
JL: Margaret.
GT: And Margaret. And where are they now?
JL: Here.
GT: Yeah. Here in Edinburgh. They live in Edinburgh.
JL: Yeah. Aye. There’s both of them here.
GT: So, what, now, you were telling me yesterday that you, you didn’t spend all your time in Edinburgh. Where else did you go to make a living?
JL: Where did I emigrate to now?
GT: How about South Africa?
JL: South Africa was it? That’s right. South Africa. I spent forty one years in South Africa. I had a big business there.
GT: And what was the business doing? What did you in South Africa?
JL: Firewalls, ceilings, partitioning, painting, decorating.
GT: And whereabouts in South Africa?
JL: Johannesburg. But I moved around and I worked in Durban and Cape Town and all over. I was, I went out there for a job. I was going down to watch the crowd. Scotland going down to Wembley to play England. Football. So we left the club at midnight here that I belong to in Edinburgh. We got the 12 o’clock train to London. I didn’t drink you see, so they, I can enjoy myself without that. And by the time I got the other guys from the help to get them on, in the train into seats and fall asleep. I’m sitting there looking at them all and I looked down at a paper somebody left. And I picked it up and I see jobs vacant. Contracts manager wanted in this big firm in London. And my dad had gone. I carried on the business here. But they were all working. My sisters were all working, had good jobs. I looked down and [unclear] so when I come home I said to my late wife, ‘There’s a big job going in London.’ She said, ‘You’re the one that’s got to to keep us. You’ve got to decide the best way you can do it. It’s up to you.’ So I applied for the job. I went down and had an interview. Come back. And I spent a couple of days in London before I came back. Seen a number of shows because I used to belong to the theatre so I knew people in the shows. So I got back up in Edinburgh and Betty said, she said, ‘You’d better get on that phone.’ I said, ‘What for?’ She said, ‘They’ve been phoning you. The job’s yours.’ I said, ‘It’s mine.’ And my son and daughter, ‘Oh, we’re going away. We’re going.’ I said, ‘Oh, wait a minute,’ I said, ‘I’ve got to go down. I’ve got to go down to London and have another interview, medical and what have you.’ So from that day within three weeks we were in, in South Africa. I had a home there and a pool and my Rolls Royce. I worked hard and built a big business in South Africa. I had forty men work for me. [pause] [unclear] So I had a good business here. And mum, my mum was alright in a nice home and my sisters looked after her and that so I get to South Africa. Had a lovely home there and a good life there. Very fortunate. It was good. I worked hard and I played hard. I mean, I think most nights we were always out for dinner. We, I worked hard to get it because I liked a better life and I wasn’t very, you know but you go after something you want and you work for it you get it. People think oh you’re lucky you got — I said, ‘I’m lucky I was given the health to do it. Nobody came along and said, ‘There you are. There’s a big business. There’s the money in the bank to run it and there’s this. You’ve got to use this.’ So I was very fortunate and had a lovely big home there. And then the time came it was decided to come back. My son wanted to come back here. My daughter is married and still over there and a lovely home, and we sold our home and come back here. Helen lost her husband. That’s her here. Yeah. But I had a home. Helen got us a home. My wife wasn’t actually with me. And then my son he got his own home. He’s [pause] excuse me. He’s got his own home. My daughter’s got, still back in South Africa with her family. They’re all grown up now though. They’re all grown up.
GT: So how many grandchildren and great grandchildren have you?
JL: How many have I got? [pause] let’s think. Two granddaughters I think and one grandchild. And a son naturally. That’s about the only ones I’ve heard of [laughs]
GT: The only ones you know of.
JL: Oh yes. [unclear] [laughs] They all run.
GT: The first time I met you James we ended up with dinner with you at your favourite restaurant here at Edinburgh and you really liked the fact that every night you could go for a meal. That was, that was pretty special as far as I’m concerned. That was that was really nice to have your company and you welcomed me. And as secretary of the 75 Squadron in New Zealand I go and visit as many of the veterans from World War Two as I can find and meet up with. So it’s always been a pleasure to sit in your company. And this is my third time in Edinburgh to see you in the last two years, so, three years. So it’s always been an honour to sit in your company and listen to your experiences, your life and what you went through for us many to help those boys who flew away and some that never came back. So I can understand your willingness to discuss and then sometimes it’s, it’s not easy is it? To talk of those times.
JL: Well. Very fortunate. That’s it.
GT: James, you don’t need to touch your forehead to say touch wood. The table.
JL: This is better wood. This is natural wood [laughs] that’s me.
GT: Yeah [laughs] That’s fine.
JL: A man’s brain made this.
GT: Of course.
JL: It wasn’t mine.
GT: Of course. Well, it’s also a pleasure to know that you were on the Squad, on 75 Squadron when James Ward was there too. So —
JL: Yeah.
GT: That was something. There’s no one else around now that was around in his time.
JL: We used to write and then the writing fell off.
GT: Yeah.
JL: Aye.
GT: Oh, you mean. Oh, is that Popeye?
JL: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Because James Ward was killed late. Well, several months after he was awarded the Victoria Cross. So did you see any of that at the time when he was awarded the Victoria Cross? Did the squadron really feel that was a good time?
JL: I would be in Burma.
GT: I think that happened before you left but —
JL: I don’t remember that to be honest with you.
GT: Yeah. And because, because that happened whilst you were at Feltwell you see so you moved on to, to Newmarket before you went to went, went to Burma so —
JL: Yeah.
GT: That’s ok. So, so I’m getting the vibe that you really liked the Wellington bombers. You really liked 75 NZ Squadron RAF.
JL: That was the one. Number one. Never be anything else to me. It was a happy —
GT: Yeah.
JL: You wouldn’t think there was a war on.
GT: And I I’m looking down here at the list of things that we’ve, we’ve talked about and you’ve pretty much just told me your life history.
JL: What was that?
GT: You’ve told me your life history again and I’m in the company of greatness.
JL: Ah yes. You see, I’ve always been me. The situations you try and make the best of it and of course when I joined up everybody said the war was three months. So away on Sunday morning the 3rd of September 1939 I ran away to join up. And my late dad said to me, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘I’m joining up.’ ‘Three months holiday at the government’s expense. Away you go.’ And when I eventually come back from Burma I think it was the 10th of March 1946. I come home. I got home and my dad said, ‘Have you enjoyed your three months holiday all right?’ I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘it was great.’
GT: That was five years you were away from home. Five years. Not three months.
JL: Somebody told us. Everybody here thought it would be three months the silly bugger. [laughs] and the silly ones really don’t.
GT: So I gather you never went back to Asia.
JL: No. But I’ve no regrets. I enjoyed it. To say that if there was a war on I’m sorry for all the things that happened to everybody and different things but I enjoyed it. It just, when the war finished I was demobbed. I didn’t actually wait I was demobbed I thought, I had the option to stay on. I said no. Go home. I started working for my dad. My dad kept the business going. And then we lost my dad and I kept the business going then. And at one time I had forty nine working for me and I was doing very well. I was not doing, I did do very well, and I was getting tired and everything. I never stopped. Seven days a week. But I had to protect what I’d created. I was going down to London one day to a job. There was an old newspaper, well a day before newspaper, not old but I picked it out and was reading it. “Contracts manager wanted in Johannesburg. Anglo American.” So I come home. I said to my late wife I said, ‘Do you want to go to South Africa?’ She said, ‘We’ll go anywhere you want to go.’ She said, ‘You’re the one that feeds us. Keeps us well and happy and be able to do what we do. You’re the one. Not me.’ So I said, ‘I’ll look at the job anyway.’ So I phoned them up I said blah blah blah. Fine. So I was away this particular morning. I had quite a few contracts for here for the place called the [Scottish Special Housing?] I had forty men working for me. And I was away and when I come back from this job I was doing she says to me, she says, ‘If you answer the phone,’ she says, ‘You’ve got the job.’ And I says, ‘What?’ She says, ‘Yes. You’ve got the job. Are you going to take it?’ I said, ‘It’s up to you.’ So, my son and daughter, they’re jumping up, ‘We’re going to South Africa.’ I said, ‘Oh, wait a minute,’ I says, ‘Your mother.’ So, she says, ‘Don’t ask me.’ She says, ‘You’re the wage earner. You’re the one that’s got to keep us. You’ve got to decide whether we’d be worse off there or better off.’ I said ‘Well, I can’t tell you I will be worse, better off there. I can’t. I’ve got to go and I’ll try and be better off. You’ll have to accept that or we don’t go.’ So I went out to the job and working away there and I was looking around and I’m watching what’s lying there. On a plate eh? I was just quite happy to do later on, you know. They think it’s very good all those years ago going to South Africa. I said to Betty, ‘I’m going to start on my own.’ She said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘I’m going to start on my own.’ She said, ‘What for?’ I said, ‘I’ve been putting a wee bit away,’ I says ‘I’ve got enough, and I’ve been offered the work.’ ‘Up to you.’ So I resigned my job, got a little office and started. It was in a year and a half I had forty men working for me. I had my Rolls Royce and everything. I can show you photographs.
GT: You were a great businessman.
JL: Yes. I had my Rolls Royce.
GT: What’s, what’s Helen’s surname?
JL: Eh?
GT: What’s Helen’s surname?
JL: Paul.
GT: Paul. Helen Paul.
JL: Mrs Paul to her. Yeah.
GT: Helen Paul. Ok. So, we’re in the company of me Glen Turner from the 75 Squadron Association and I’m doing an interviews and meeting Bomber Command folk and you are Mr Jim, James Lamb.
JL: Yes.
GT: And also in the company of Jim’s daughter Helen Paul and Diana Harrington.
JL: You met my son didn’t you? You met my son one day in the street.
GT: So, sorry what was that, James?
JL: I said you met my son, James.
GT: Yes we did. I met him.
JL: In the street.
GT: Yeah. Two years ago. Yeah. I did. That’s right. Well I think we’ve talked enough. I think you have given —
JL: It’s just —
GT: Loads of information to help with my history and and honestly the Bomber Command Centre as well. Are you, you’re ok with that?
JL: Oh, yes. It was 75 Squadron, eh?
GT: I’ve got a form from 75 Squadron. Can I let, can I let you fill that out and I’ll get a blue pen. So you —
JL: I’ll get my glasses.
GT: Ok.
JL: I think my glasses are over there somewhere.
Other: His glasses.
GT: Glasses. Yeah. These ones.
JL: I don’t know where I saw them. Oh that’s come off often. Don’t worry.
GT: Same as mine.
[long pause]
GT: Have you got a blue pen, Jim?
JL: Eh?
GT: Have you got a blue pen?
JL: A pen.
GT: Yeah. Like that one.
JL: An ink pen.
GT: If not Helen will have one.
[pause]
GT: Try it on there. No. It’s empty.
JL: Helen will get you one.
GT: Ok.
[long pause]
JL: Helen will get you one just now.
[pause]
JL: That’s alright.
GT: Just locating a pen for James to write his detail down.
JL: That’s what I was going for. How did you guess?
[pause]
JL: My right, left knee gives me trouble.
GT: Is it? And —
JL: Well that’s nothing is it? The first — James.
GT: That’s, that’s your surname.
JL: Oh.
GT: Yeah. So that’s ok. Just write Lamb here that’s good. You don’t have to cross it out. I can —
JL: Right.
GT: Yeah. James.
JL: The J in.
GT: Yeah. Put James there.
JL: First name.
GT: First name up there. I’ll get you to sign. Just sign your name there.
JL: My name.
GT: Just a signature. Just a signature.
JL: James.
GT: Yeah. Ok. Two.
JL: I had a few names but I can’t write them out there.
JL: No [laughs] Ok. Sign that one there. Just your signature so that I get everyone just to sign something.
JL: Elizabeth. We called her Betty.
GT: Ok.
JL: Address. I’ll just put here.
GT: Yes. [redacted]
[long pause]
JL: The email address is the same as above.
GT: Yeah. Well, you’ve only got a phone number haven’t you?
JL: Eh?
GT: You’ve only got a phone number, James. So just put your mobile phone number. The one we’ve been ringing.
JL: I’ll give you the house phone.
GT: Ok. Yeah.
JL: Or I’ll give you my phone. Both.
GT: Well, we’ve been talking on your mobile haven’t we?
JL: [unclear]
GT: Yeah. Ok. Actually —
JL: I’ll get the house number from Helen.
GT: Ok.
JL: I can’t remember it properly.
GT: Alright. Fine. You don’t have an email so that’s fine. Date of birth. Ok. So your, your phone number [redacted].
[pause]
GT: Right. Your service number.
JL: That’s what I’m trying to remember. The first one. 1373978. I’m sure that was it.
GT: Yeah.
[pause]
GT: Right. Now also your trade was the job that you did in the Air Force, so your — that’s ok you can just put. Because that was what you did before. Can you put slash aircraft tech because you were an aircraft mechanic weren’t you?
JL: Rigger.
GT: Yeah. That’s good. You were a rigger. And where were you? So you were at Feltwell. This is your time on 75 Squadron. So you were at Feltwell. Just put Feltwell on that one.
JL: That’s the area.
GT: Served where? Feltwell.
JT: [unclear]
GT: No. Just put Feltwell.
JL: Just put Feltwell.
GT: Yeah. [pause] And Mildenhall. You were at Mildenhall, weren’t you? Mildenhall.
JL: Feltwell.
GT: Yeah. Feltwell and Mildenhall.
JL: In the UK.
GT: Yeah. Ok. And 1940. I think it was 1940 to 1942.
JL: When the war finished.
GT: No. This is just 75 Squadron.
JL: Yes.
GT: Yeah. Yeah. So just put 1940 there.
JL: 1940.
GT: Yeah. And then put 1942. It’s just rough. It’s just a rough idea. I don’t have to be exact.
JL: And then I went to Burma.
GT: Yes. That’s right but this was 75 Squadron not 11. And you were AC2.
JL: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Aircraftsman.
JL: Aircraftsman. That’s all.
GT: Yeah. So put AC2.
JL: That’s what you were you called. What were you called? I’ll put aircraftsman.
GT: Put AC2. We know what that is.
[pause]
GT: Yeah. And AC2 there when you retired. When you left the RAF you were —
JL: AC.
GT: AC2. Ok. So none of those. None of those. And aircraft type. So put Wellington and Stirling.
JL: Stirling.
GT: Yeah. In this one here.
JL: I should put there they thank God they got rid of me.
GT: Special award James. Yeah. So that one there put Wellington and Stirling.
[pause]
JL: Will this get me a pension?
GT: I can only but try for you. There you can put 11 Squadron Burma. Hurricane. That’s, that’s your other, other RAF history. So put 11 Squadron.
JL: Put UK in and Burma.
GT: No. You just put here 11 Squadron.
JL: 11 Squadron.
GT: Yeah. And then you can put Burma.
JL: Burma.
GT: Yeah. And put next to it Hurricane. Yeah. Hurricane. Hurri and Spit. Put Hurri and Spit.
JL: In there.
GT: Yeah. Hurri and Spit. That’s the two aircraft you worked on. Yeah.
JL: How?
GT: Hurricane.
JL: Oh. Yeah. Oh.
GT: My accent.
JL: But also in here was the Wellington as well.
GT: Right. You put Wellington up here. Yeah. See. Wellington next to it.
JL: I’ve put that there.
GT: And one last thing is to sign for me just up here Jim. Just do a signature for me. Ok. Now this, this is to the Bomber Command Centre has asked me to make sure that I come and visit you Bomber Command guys.
JL: Yeah.
GT: And talk to you and see if you would mind your details going into their archives. So that’s your history.
JL: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And I’ve got a photograph of us now so they would like a photograph of us from me talking with you.
JL: Yeah.
GT: But they need to know that you are ok with you and I doing this. So that just tells your name. I can fill all this in for you. But that’s, that’s a declaration of the interview. This says that. And this is you. This is —
JL: Yeah.
GT: It says you’ve consented to take part in the recording and assign the university the copyright. So in other words they they hold that agreement. “I agree that my name will be publicly associated with this interview but understand that all other personal details will be stored under strict confidential conditions.” Alright? They have very strict rules. “I grant permission for my photograph to be taken.” So that’s the photograph I’ve just taken. We’ve just taken of us. Is that ok? Yeah. “And I agree to my interview being available.” And people can hear your story. Is that alright with you?
JL: This is only for, this is not to be on the TV or —
GT: No. No TV.
JL: Radio or anything.
GT: No.
JL: It’s just personal to the Bomber Command.
GT: Yes. They just ask you. You sign that one there and I can write your name on that.
[pause]
GT: Ok. And now, now I think, I think this is a form about donating but I think this is about this archive. Now, I’m sure that you’re not, agreement to donate items. But you haven’t got any items that you want to donate.
JL: No. I haven’t got anything to associate with it.
GT: But now. If, if I can get you to sign that I will destroy this once I get down there because I’m not sure to know if the donation is about this piece here. Are you ok if you sign saying that you agree to this information being donated to the archives? Because you’re donating your history to the archives. Are you ok with that? And if this is not needed I will destroy this form because —
JL: No. I’m not going to sign that.
GT: Ok. Alright. That’s ok. Well, that’s brilliant Jim because that will go in my archives and they have got a little bit of a story about you. So I’ve got some notes. I’ve kept some notes. This is not for the newspaper or anything. This is just for the 75 Squadron because I’ve only got two Lambs on my history of 75 Squadron and you’re not one of those two so I’m now. Now I’ve got three.
JL: [unclear]
GT: No. But you’re part of the 75 Squadron history you see and Bomber Command history for that matter see.
JL: Oh right. Oh yeah.
GT: That’s why I’ve asked you to fill that out for me and now we’ve got your photographs. You’ve been wearing my tie for three or four years now.
JL: Oh yes.
GT: With the Wellington and the Stirling bomber on it.
JL: I just wore that just to show you that I have just got such respect for 75 New Zealand Squadron.
GT: Well I’ve come a long way to say hello so it is —
JL: I shall never forget it. I’m going to tell you something I’ve told people, Helen can tell you and.
GT: Hang on, I’ll get that for you.
JL: Leave that off for now. Sorry. Helen will tell you I tell a few people and they must go away saying there’s something wrong with him. I enjoyed the war with 75 New Zealand Squadron. Now it’s a terrible thing to say isn’t it?
GT: Emotions played a massive part in how you managed to survive your part of the war, James and if you managed to get through it in that manner it’s not terrible. It’s the way you’ve survived and you are ninety six next birthday aren’t you?
JL: It’s just that you say you enjoyed the war. It wasn’t the war. I forgot about the war as I went out. I had a great time. There must be something wrong with him here. But I used to say to some of the lads who’d say, ‘You never wished you were finished and you were home?’ I said, ‘I long for the day to get home but wishing. We won’t get back home ‘til it’s all over and by the grace of God we’ll get through it all and then get back home.’ But they were saying, ‘I wish this anyway.’ That’s not going to finish it. I said, ‘It takes the big wheels of history to say we’ll finish it there. Let’s finish it today.’ I said, ‘So to go around I wish we were this. I wish this. You’re only making yourself ill. You signed to come in to it. It’s a war and that’s different than peace time.’ Oh you join up and you say twenty five years and all of a sudden you say you’ve had enough of this you can get out because you can get out but it’ll cost you this. You can buy yourself out eh? We all do things. I was, I was an, for example in one way. I was in the war. Well, I would have been called up anyway. And I was always thankful I went to 75 New Zealand Squadron because I don’t think there was a happier Squadron in Bomber Command and that is the honest truth. Everybody was happy. I mean I had done it as well. Got home, got fed up being at home and come back two days off my leave. I wasn’t the only one eh? I had enough there. Better back here. Yeah. But we had wonderful officers. It was a, it was a happy Squadron. It was a [pause] Group Captain Lucas. He wasn’t the group captain. He was one of the boys. And then on Sunday he took the toast in the main dining room. Everybody was in the main dining room. He was at the table naturally himself and that and he took the toast on a Sunday and the grace. And British Air Force. You come and watch a football match the lads were playing sit beside just any crowd pick this up they said out came his cigarettes case. The cigarettes and smoking. He was a wonderful man eh? No matter what he asked us to do we would have done it. We would do it for him. Yeah. I’ll never forget Popeye Lucas. As COs went he was a man above men. He had his own, he had his way with him. And once we were out late I stayed out late. It was 2 o’clock when I got home. Of course I’m on a charge naturally. I mean I knew I would get booked. I was in front of him in the morning. He said, ‘You’re charged with being out.’ I said, Yes, sir. It’s perfectly right.’ He said, ‘You’re supposed to be in,’ he said, ‘By 11.59.’ You know. Not even twelve. It’s 11.59 you had to get in by. I said, ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘But I met people,’ I says, ‘And the lassie,’ I said, ‘I met took me home to see her parents and I sat and had supper and that,’ I says, ‘And the supper would be worth having that so I says I’ll probably get in confined to camp for seven or fourteen days and then I’ll get out, eh?’ I said, ‘Anyway, I’ve done wrong and I deserve to get the punishment. I’m not upset. I knew I was doing wrong.’ So he sat looking up at me. He says, ‘That’s the first time I’ve heard somebody say things like that to me when they’re going to get charged then.’ I said, ‘We all know if you do something wrong you get punished for it. Even at home when you’re a baby. You’re a boy at school. Teachers are going to slap,’ I said, ‘At home they’re going to spank you if you’ve done something.’ I said, ‘So it’s alright. I’ve done wrong and that.’ He said, ‘Dismissed. Get back to your — ’ He never charged for me. Never [laughs]
GT: That saved you a bob or two.
JL: Oh but, 75 New Zealand Squadron was above any other Squadron in the Royal Air Force. It was ran with love. You can write that in a book if you want. There was nobody when we were going on leave. And I included. It’s not the first going on leave and coming back two days earlier. I’m not the first one. It was a, well I wasn’t on, well I was on a training before I went to the Squadron but as far as happiness. Group Captain Lucas. He’d got, he was just one of the lads when he was watching a football match. If we were on parades or anything official things he had to do he was the boss. But normally than that he was one of the lads. Oh yes. I told the world about that when I came home. You know it’s just a pity officers there probably have been some like that I hope. When an officer said to me, ‘If you’re like that you lose their respect.’ I said, ‘You don’t lose their respect. It’s how you handle it.’ I said, ‘I was in a Squadron,’ I says, ‘That every man would have went to hell and back with this man.’ I said, ‘He was, we couldn’t do enough for him.’ He said, ‘You were never punished?’ I said, ‘Yes. I come back a few days over my extra leave. I said, ‘Instead of going away for ten days. I stayed away fourteen days.’ ‘Did he punish you?’ I said, ‘Yes, he punished me. That’s his job. He’s got to do his job.’ ‘You weren’t angry?’ I said, ‘What for? I knew I was doing wrong. It wasn’t a mistake.’ ‘Oh no,’ he says, ‘You don’t look at it that way. A good officer wouldn’t have.’ I says, ‘A bad officer would have let me off.’ I said, ‘An officer commanding has got to have respect from his men to do for him what he wants us to do. So if I came back he said ‘Alright, dismissed.’ I thought oh in that case I’ll go away again I’ll stay away two weeks the next time. Not correct [unclear] You’ve got to be in command. In command and keep in command and be obeyed but you’ve also got to be a friend. They look upon you as a friend first. I said that to many young lad that was, I says, ‘He’s got to be a friend. Then he’s got to give you orders and he’s got to look after you. That’s all. His decision is our lives.’
GT: That’s very astute of you being eighteen years old going on twenty three when you finally finished with the war. A very astute young man you must have been.
JL: Aye. I had no regrets joining up. I don’t know if I’d have been in any other Air Force or not but in 75 New Zealand Squadron it was like one massive holiday. Yeah. Yes.
GT: Well, I I think I’ve taken more than enough of your time up today there Jim. And —
JL: You thought of way back you keep on going don’t you?
GT: You’re a star all the stuff you’ve been telling me today.
JL: All the lasses. Put the uniform on. ‘You come from New Zealand?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘What do you do?’ ‘I don’t work.’ Eh? Oh I’ll tell you. ‘You don’t work?’ I said, ‘I don’t have to work. My father owns a big sheep estate and everything,’ oh [laughs] Millionaire Lamb is dancing tonight. I’ve danced with a millionaire.
GT: Yeah.
JL: Great times, eh?
GT: I’m pleased you had some great times.
JL: Yes. I was a good, I happened to be a good ballroom dancer. There was no problem with the lasses who wanted to dance you gave them a dance. What do you do? ‘What do you work at?’ ‘I don’t work. My father’s got a big business.’ Oh aye. I had the dreams. I had the dreams.
GT: Just going to get —
JL: I had the dreams.
GT: Take a couple of photographs there.
JL: I’ll stand up.
GT: No. You just sit there Jim. I’ll sit next to you around the side and Diana’s just going to take a couple of photographs.
JL: There we are.
GT: There we go.
JL: One country to another. A handshake.
GT: Alright. And I’ll let her take one more because I could have blinked.
JL: The camera’s not broken yet. That’s odd.
Other: Pretty good [unclear] pretty good. That’s a nice close up one.
JL: Is it?
Other: Yeah.
GT: Well, I’m yeah, you’ve got dinner coming soon have you? You’ve got your dinner coming.
JL: No. We wait a bit longer and then they send it over.
GT: Oh, that’s good.
JL: They ring us and ask if we want it now.
GT: We know that Helen is obviously a bit tired and she’s waiting for dinner is she?
JL: Where is she?
Other: She’s here.
JL: She’s there. You’ve got, no you go now. It’s alright. Yeah. So now I’m going to head south tomorrow.
GT: Yeah.
JL: So I’m going to try and get back to see you again next year.
GT: I hope so. Yes.
JL: What time is it anyway?
GT: Five to six in the evening. Five to six.
JL: Where does the time go?
GT: Well, we arrived at 3 o’clock. Was it 3 o’clock?
JL: It just runs.
GT: Yeah. Because that would be two hours. That’s two hours you and I have been talking.
JL: Yes. It’s —
GT: How are your fingers. Are they, because you were a builder in hammers and all that kind of stuff, yeah you haven’t got arthritis or anything? Gosh you’re lucky aren’t you? A man of your age.
JL: It’s all the dancing. The high jump. Dancing.
GT: When did you last finish dancing?
JL: Oh if I go to functions I go up. Mostly people I know I used to be you know it’s nice talking about yourself but I used to dance for Scotland in ballroom dancing. I was. But my family, my late father bless him his sisters were all dancers. So maybe what was in their genes came on to me. I liked ballroom dancing and at first you’re dancing where everybody goes and you dance with one lassie and another lassie and another lassie and the lassie that cane really dance . ‘Thank you. Thanks for a lovely dance.’ I said, ‘Yeah,’ I said, ‘You too.’ And it gets around the dance halls and I said oh many times [unclear] come and say, ‘Can I dance with you tonight?’ But I liked ballroom dancing. I liked the theatre. I often wish I had been in the theatre. I was on the stage a few times. We often used to say I wished I had made that profession. I loved the theatre. I mixed with the theatre people and I knew them all. Yes. I’ve had, I could write a book.
GT: You didn’t.
JL: We’re all different if we could write. No. But [pause] I was. One of my dad’s sisters, my auntie Alice was a dancer. A highland dancer. She went to exhibitions and that and she taught me ballroom dancing so when I went dancing and you got a lassie that could dance you come back and then eventually Jimmy Lamb was known. So I went to a dance and everybody up there and up and dancing and I enjoyed ballroom dancing and I used to go every night. That’s one thing I enjoyed. But —
GT: So where did you do your ballroom dancing. Here in Edinburgh?
JL: Edinburgh.
GT: And that was how old were you doing that?
JL: I’d be in my, I ‘d say, maybe eighteen, nineteen. I also ballroom danced in South Africa and I went to the big, I was the district governor of Lionism in Johannesburg. You know, have you heard of Lionism? It’s like the Round Table. I happened to be elected district governor. When I went out I really liked showbusiness. Big dinners and that. So as I say I should have. I loved the theatre. I should have maybe, I don’t know. Anyway, I didn’t and I just put enjoyment into everything and they were the good days. But the dancing now is [pause] the dancing and the ballroom dancing fizzled out. That’s old fashioned now. But I loved ballroom dancing. And I happened to be not bad at it. I have no complaints. No complaints. Ballroom dancing. The Palace of Dance here nearly every night. Oh yes. But these days are gone for the young ones. They’re not interested in that now. No. They’re not. That’s no good. That’s too tame. When I see how some of the young ones are at night coming home from wherever they’ve been, I really feel sorry for them. They call in they get themselves, they go for a drink and then it’s, ‘It’s great if you’re drunk. It’s a great feeling being drunk,’ I’ve heard them saying. Stupid eh? I’ll take a glass of whisky. Yeah. Anybody. But that’s, that’s enough. To sit all night drinking beers and go to the toilet and come back and fill their bladder again that’s some system that isn’t it? Stupid system. None of our families did drink. Late Dad never touched a drink in his life and he said to me, ‘Although I don’t drink, Jim,’ he says, ‘You can go and have a drink. I’m not stopping you having a drink when you’re out with your friends.’ he says, ‘But I’ll tell you one thing. You don’t forget it. The first night you come here aggressively drunk,’ he says, ‘I’ll wait ‘til you sober up and everything, in the morning I’ll tell you to get out your clothes and leave.’ That was a fair enough warning wasn’t it? But I don’t see any pleasure going out to get drunk. Do you? If they’re all looking for you at a party or something, they’re all buying you drinks you don’t tell me you can’t stop because you know yourself when you’re getting a wee bit. I’ve never been drunk. I don’t intend to get drunk. I have a drink. Talking about that would you like a drink before you go?
GT: That would be very nice of you thank you. Let’s have one last whisky together.
JL: Right.
GT: Please.
JL: Never thought of asking you about that before.
GT: You’ve been busy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with James Lamb
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
Identifier
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ALambJ170725, PLambJ1702
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Format
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02:19:09 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James Lamb volunteered for the RAF on the first day of the Second World War. He trained as an aircraft technician and was posted to 75 New Zealand Squadron where he worked on Wellington bombers. He was then posted to 11 Squadron in Burma where he worked on Hurricanes and Spitfires.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Burma
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
Scotland--Edinburgh
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1946
75 Squadron
entertainment
fitter airframe
ground crew
ground personnel
Hurricane
mechanics airframe
military discipline
military service conditions
RAF Feltwell
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Newmarket
Spitfire
Stirling
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/913/11155/AKnightD180117.2.mp3
a1c603db2ac36daa39476c25f6ee8d4f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Knight, Dave
David Knight
D Knight
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer David Knight (b. 1924, 433310 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations with 75 and 9 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Knight, D
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: It’s Wednesday the 17th of January 2018 and I’m at the home of David Knight born 15 November 1924 in Matamata, New Zealand. RNZAF navigator, NZ 433310, warrant officer, in Nelson, New Zealand. David joined the RNZAF in 1943, trained in Canada and joined 75 New Zealand Squadron in March 1945 at RAF Mepal. Completed two war ops and numerous Exodus trips before moving to 9 Squadron in June for Tiger Force training. David returned to New Zealand in December 1945. David, thanks for welcoming me into your home. Can you give me a little bit of your, where you were born and grew up and why you wanted to join the Royal New Zealand Air Force please?
DK: Yes. Well, I was born in Matamata and raised in my early years in Hamilton. I joined the ATC prior to my joining the Air Force and was there for eighteen months. And I was on an intake into the Air Force and streamed to be aircrew via basic training and selection in Rotorua in the final stages and travelled overseas as a prospective navigator. We — can we just stop it there? Can I just —
[recording paused]
DK: We travelled to San Diego in the US Mooltan which was a second [unclear] American ship. Landed at San Diego. Trained to Vancouver, across to Hamilton Ontario. And it was two weeks before our course was due to start, and we as a group went to New York and explored the place there. Our course was in Winnipeg. It was, we arrived there just on Christmas. We had Christmas in, a Canadian Christmas at the station. And our training took six months, and of course took us into the winter months and we were flying in temperatures of something like forty below which was pretty hazardous in terms of fingers sticking to implements and one had to be pretty careful with, about one’s ears and noses too in that sort of temperature. Can I get —
GT: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DK: The course was somewhat uneventful but we learned a lot of course and we graduated with our wings there. The only piece of excitement you might say was the fact that in the Anson we had to wind up the undercarriage which was a terrible job in the cold and on one particular occasion we lost a propeller. It appears that it had an oil failure. An engine seized and flicked off the propeller. We were not too far from an adjoining airstrip and landed quite safely so that was the only real aspect worth mentioning. After graduation we trained to Montreal, and after that to Halifax and then across the Atlantic in one of the Empress liners. I think then [pause] at the landing we were transferred to West Freugh up near the Scottish border and once more we trained in Ansons. And from there we went to OTU which is Operational Training Unit on, at Oakley on Wellingtons. We did a long time on Wellingtons preparing for our role as aircrew and from time to [pause] stop.
[recording paused]
DK: Yes. While at the OTU flying Wellingtons, and we’d crewed up to some extent at that stage and we settled down as a crew and we did a lot of the training, cross countries and all that that was required as well as trips over the North Sea as diversionary flights to fool the Germans in terms of bomber raids that were happening in the south. From OTU we went to Conversion Unit on to Lancasters, and one of our, something that sticks in my mind is the fact that the first flight in a Lancaster was under an instructor and we flew up to something like twenty thousand feet and the pilot feathered one engine, two engines, three engines and we maintained height at twenty thousand feet on one engine on a Lancaster which gave us a lot of [pause] you know. Stop it again.
[recording paused]
DK: So that was the introduction to the Lancaster which gave us a lot of confidence. We finally crewed up with our number of seven people in the crew and started some training and preparing to go over to be posted to a squadron which happened to be number 75 New Zealand Squadron. In the time that I was there and that was towards the end of the war we were probably the last replacement intake that happened prior to the finish of the war. Which meant that our crew flew actually three operations of which I went on two. The first one was to Kiel when our commanding officer Wing Commander Cyril Baigent skippered the plane. And that was quite shattering to think that a budding navigator was responsible to the [laughs] to the flight commander. Now, then, then there was another one. The next one was to Potsdam which was a long trip and that took something like eight hours and twenty minutes. So it was the first introduction to flak and real, you know flak and the prospect of night fighters. However that was a successful. The crew, I understand, I know did one more trip to bomb a railyard but at that time I was down with mumps and in isolation in Ely Hospital. So that’s why I missed out on that one. And of course the war ended at that time and they rescheduled everyone in terms of volunteers to make up the Tiger Force and we did a lot of training there in preparation to flying apparently to Okinawa to support the American invasion of Japan. But of course they had something up their sleeve and they didn’t.
GT: That part of the war. So, Dave, I’m just looking at your logbook now. So I’ll just briefly give some idea to your, your entries which gives you the history of your training. So when you first arrived in England it was the 6th of July ’44 and you went on to 4 AFU in West Freugh in Scotland and you were there for pretty much for the month of July. You moved to 11 OTU at Westcott on the August ’44 and a mixture between Westcott and Oakley and that was pretty much from October ’44 right through to the, well January ’45. And, and then you moved to number 1651 Conversion Unit at Woolfox Lodge and that was from the beginning of March and completed that pretty much by the 21st of March as your conversion from Wellingtons to Lancasters. And your arrival on 75 New Zealand Squadron was the 30th of March ’45. And your completion of flying on 75 New Zealand Squadron was on the 17th of May. So, from there, after your total flying hours with 75 Squadron was eleven hours. Your total flying hours at the time, day a hundred and sixty eight. Total night one hundred and fifty one. And then you moved to Bardney at Waddington for 9 Squadron. June 18th you spent flying until the 18th of September which was pretty much your last Lancaster flight. So on 9 Squadron then can you remember anything of the things that you did and your skipper particularly?
DK: Yes. Our skipper was a married gentleman called [unclear] A well-seasoned pilot and you know, a great chap. Apart from training for the Far East we went out to Pomigliano on two occasions to pick up POWs and brought them back. I think number twenty four. The number was twenty four that packed into, into the plane. Apart from that we, I was transferred to Brighton awaiting repatriation back home. Arriving right on Christmas of ’46.
GT: So what ship did they take you back from England? Bring you back.
DK: Yeah.
GT: The Andes?
DK: No [pause] [laughs] No.
[recording paused]
DK: Yes. The ship that brought us home was the SS Mooltan. The one that we caught out of New Zealand to go to San Diego was the US —
GT: The Uruguay, was it?
DK: Uruguay.
GT: Yeah.
DK: That’s the one. Yeah.
GT: So when, when you joined the RNZAF was navigator your aim or was that just the one that they slotted you in and you accepted? Did the [unclear] for you.
DK: I didn’t want to be a pilot. That’s number one. And I was an engineering prospective student so I thought navigation was the one to do. Yeah.
GT: And that, that was easy for you? The navigation. You found it good to work for.
DK: Yes. And I had, my life had been study really up to that point in time, so there was no real effort to knuckle down and do the work necessary to qualify as a navigator.
GT: What was your background before the war that made if good for you to do the navigation?
DK: Well, I was only out of school actually.
GT: Ok.
DK: But I was, joined the Post Office as an engineering cadet and I was, worked for just a year before I was in the, when I joined the Air Force.
GT: And that was a total volunteer thing right? You weren’t called up.
DK: No. Not at eighteen. No.
GT: No.
DK: No.
GT: So the navigation role then how did it work for the crew? They, they all relied on you totally to make sure they got there and back. Did they have — [unclear]
DK: Yes. Well, there’s a back-up in terms of the wireless operator. He could get fixes. He could ask for assistance. And I don’t recall having to use that and I think the bomb aimer was somewhat conversant with the art of navigation. So there were back-ups. The only thing I felt was there were no one to back up the skipper.
GT: Flight engineer.
DK: Yeah. No. Well, they came later.
GT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
GT: True. So, so when you did the, your daylight trips the difference between night and day did you guys notice a succinct difference? Was it, did you have to change your tactics?
DK: You mean operations? I didn’t fly any daylight trips so I can’t answer that one.
GT: Ok. Now, the aircraft you were flying in. Lancaster. A beautiful aircraft, it was. Other crews liked them. What was it?
DK: Well, yeah. People had faith in the aircraft but, well in retrospect when you think about it there was damn all chance of getting out of the thing in trouble because of the big spar across the centre of the fuselage. Gives you the willies to think that perhaps a lot of people, you know met they’re doom by the fact that they were restrained so much by the structure of the aircraft.
GT: High G forces [unclear]
DK: Yeah.
GT: But were there was any aircraft lost when you were on the squadron? It was right at the end of the war.
DK: Yes. Well, there was evidence of something lost by the time that we arrived there and I just don't recall any particular one on the time that I was there.
GT: You weren’t there that long at Mepal. But in this case did you enjoy any of the pubs? Do you remember any of the —
DK: I think we went out as a crew. Yes. There’s one thing you really didn’t, didn’t make a lot of friends as aircrew on the Air Force because you were confined to your crew mainly and you went as a crew and your, you became friendly with them. But different from being in the Army where you were living with people all the time, and you make up, you settled down in hierarchy and you feel comfortable within your group. Whereas this, you just participated as a group of seven and you lived as a group of seven, slept as a group of seven and that was about it.
GT: You mentioned your first operation was with Cyril Baigent.
DK: Yeah.
GT: Who was the wing commander of 75 New Zealand Squadron. A very young wing commander at that time.
DK: Yes.
GT: Very well respected. And you had that feeling when you were flying with him. He was, he was, respected. He was deserving of that respect.
DK: Absolutely. More so by the fact that he’d achieved that at a very young age. So there must have been something that he had going for him.
GT: Of note that Wing Commander Cyril Baigent returned to New Zealand post war. Took a reduction in rank but he became the commanding officer of the new 75 RNZAF Squadron flying Mosquitoes but sadly died of cancer in 1949.
DK: Yes.
GT: And he’s buried in the cemetery not far from where we are now here in Nelson and several years ago I found his collective grave with his brother. And he, I think also was awarded the Military Cross. So a very prestigious military family is the Baigents here in Nelson, New Zealand. Very good. So then when you moved to 9 Squadron did, what was the kind of work you were doing to work up to go to, well in this case Okinawa? This was where you were heading.
DK: Yes.
GT: So what kind of work were you doing for that?
DK: I think we were concentrating on long range navigation over the Pacific which is different from Europe of course. Was it LORAN that they had there? I just don’t recall in detail but we were doing a lot of cross country and we were in a holding situation because we were a trained crew and we could have been uplifted at any time. And we had different aircraft too. I think we were painted white underneath and black on top. I don’t recall. But some quite different.
GT: What was your main navigation tool on these aircraft? Did they change between 75 and the ones you went to 9 Squadron with or the same?
DK: Pretty much the same. We had H2S and Gee. Well, that’s mainly for navigating around where we were training. They’d have to, they had a different system there covering the Pacific. Yeah.
GT: Now, 75 New Zealand Squadron were heading, went to Spilsby for Tiger Force training and eventually you started to crew up with Lincolns and, and by VJ Day they had received three. Had 9 Squadron been moving towards Lincolns as well or were they just going to go out with Lancasters?
DK: I think it was Lancasters. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. I’d also heard from another veteran some years ago that they were doing engine trials for, for flying in the heat which obviously was something that Lancaster hadn’t done much of in Europe.
DK: No. No.
GT: So, was there any thought of the aircraft overheating? And did they do any training towards that?
DK: No. It didn’t filter down through the ranks.
GT: They were just going to get them there.
DK: Yeah.
GT: And hope for the best.
DK: Yeah.
GT: Hopefully, the Merlins coped. Fascinating. So, so alright, you came back to New Zealand after the war and you settled into a new role. What did you, what did you end up doing then?
DK: Well, I went back to the Post Office and with the intention of carrying on my engineering career. I wasn’t accepted back because in [pause]
[recording paused]
DK: Yes. When I got back I applied to continue my engineering study with a bursary from the Post Office, but at the time there was a lot of prospective engineers halfway through their courses when they were either called up or volunteered and the quota was over, over full. So being the youngest virtually and the last one to, the last one to [pause] being the last one to go and join the Air Force I stayed as a technician and I was, included in the work was night shift. And I’d started a family at that stage and I’d built a house and settled down to civilian life and I wasn’t going to do any night shifts at all. So I either was going to quit the job or get my qualification via the Institute of Electrical Engineers extramurally which after four years of study without, without a lot of assistance I achieved that and became a registered engineer. And I graduated through the hierarchy of the Post Office engineering to be an engineer, a senior engineer, a supervising engineer and a district engineer of Nelson. And I retired at age fifty seven after forty years of service.
[recording paused]
DK: Yes. To qualify as an engineer the way I did you had to pass, and be accepted by the Institute of Electrical Engineers based in London. And people who had engineering degrees could not get a practicing certificate or become a chartered engineer unless they passed a section B of the Institute’s recommendation. And then at the time that I graduated the nuclear engineering business was starting to appear and requiring engineers and rather than be under the auspices of the Institute of Electrical Engineers they decided that they would start their own institution and they advertised to recent graduates to be foundation members of the Institute of Atomic Engineering. And so I accepted that because there could be a likelihood that I may end up in the UK and I’d be qualified to accept a responsibility in that particular field. Although New Zealand was nuclear free and all that sort of thing and there’s nothing here of a practical work in that calling I was abreast of the situation through technical papers that I had access to at all times and I became a fellow of the Institute of Nuclear Engineers as time went by.
GT: Ok, Dave. That’s fascinating stuff. Dave, what about family? Yourself and with your lovely wife Margaret, you had how many children and how many great grandchildren?
DK: Well, we had three children. Two boys and a girl. They were all, have been self-employed. Two of them are pensioners now. They’re over sixty five and they’re doing better than I ever did. Each one of them. So there’s no worries there. There’s seven grandchildren and there’s, I think there’s going to be any time, any minute there’s going to be number thirteen of great grandchildren. So, they’re spread all over the world. There’s some in England, some in Sydney, some in, in Brisbane and certainly in Auckland. So, but they seem to like Nelson as a place to come and they certainly come and we enjoy them while they’re here. Unfortunately, I lost my wife eighteen months ago after sixty eight years which was a blow certainly, but I live alone in a four bedroom house. I can manage it. I’m capable of doing that and I intend to stay here until the end rather than go into care if I can possibly arrange it. So, and I’m socially active in terms of belonging to a [unclear] Club which gives any amount of social connection and that’s the saviour of, you know the, of our later retirement years I would say. Certainly after the death of Margaret. Yeah.
GT: Dave, in Nelson here there’s now six, six of you left, and amazingly three of you are ex-75 New Zealand Squadron Lancaster crew. And that, that number has diminished now which means that your local Bomber Command Association of Nelson’s get togethers every so often you’ve now had to kind of curtail that and disband so to speak. So, so it is fabulous to be able to come and enjoy your company. You and I have known each other now for ten years and its fabulous that you’re also very welcoming of my visits to you. So I thank you very much for allowing me to interview you for the IBCC Archives here. And you are accepting of your details being added to a very rich museum and archive status that they’re doing at Lincolnshire. So David lets sign off now. Thank you very much for your story, your life and thank you for your sacrifice and your service, sir.
DK: Well, thank you for the interview.
GT: Thank you.
DK: Yes.
GT: Good night.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dave Knight
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AKnightD180117
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:26:45 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
New Zealand
England--Cambridgeshire
New Zealand--Nelson
Description
An account of the resource
David Knight was a member of the ATC before volunteering for the Royal New Zealand Air Force and began training as a navigator. He travelled to Canada as part of his training before arriving in the UK and being posted to 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal. When they flew at twenty thousand feet in a Lancaster on one engine the crew gained a great confidence in the aircraft that would take them on operations. Dave was nervous when his first operational flight was with Wing Commander Cyril Baigent, the Commanding Officer of 75 Squadron. He was posted on to 9 Squadron for training in preparation for being engaged as Tiger Force. He returned to New Zealand after the war to continue his engineering training.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1945
11 OTU
1651 HCU
75 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
navigator
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Mepal
Tiger force
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/900/11140/PJarmyJFD1703.1.jpg
d79a334eec7e8edd1dfa7ded9dc46172
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/900/11140/AJarmyJFD170726.2.mp3
f54aa76abd3793861cf39e00fcebb13f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jarmy, Jack
Jack Francis David Jarmy
J F D Jarmy
Description
An account of the resource
23 items. And oral history interview with Jack Francis David Jarmy DFC (b. 1922, 134695 Royal Air Force) his log books and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 75 and 218 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jack Jarmy and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jarmy, JFD
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: Ok. This is Glen Turner from 75 Squadron Association as Secretary and a certified IBCC interviewer interviewing Mr Jack Jarmy and this is for the Digital Archives to be based at Lincoln. And Jack is with me and good evening, Jack.
JJ: Good evening.
GT: Evening. So, I’m going to ask Jack some questions on the history of Jack’s life with Bomber Command in the middle and Jack can we start please by you describing your title and your service number please?
JJ: Say again, sorry?
GT: Your service number and your title.
JJ: Service number.
GT: And your trade.
JJ: Airman’s number 1337329 and officer’s number 134695.
GT: And your trade was RAF navigator.
JJ: My trade was, originally was pilot. U/T pilot.
GT: Great. Jack, can you begin with us please by stating your date of birth, where you were born and your, your years growing up?
JJ: I was, date of birth was 26th of April ’22 in Romford, Essex and I, from the age of twelve I lived with my grandparents. No. From the age of five I lived with my grandparents because my father had died when I was five. Do I go on then to joining the RAF?
GT: Yes.
JJ: I was very keen to join the RAF and I thought initially as a wireless operator but then at the age of eighteen, the very day I was eighteen I was living outside of Portsmouth, I got on my bicycle without telling my grandparents, cycled down to Portsmouth and volunteered for training as a pilot. And I was accepted on the spot actually but I wasn’t officially called up for about another eight months or so.
GT: In, in —
JJ: 1941 that would be.
GT: Jack, how well did you do at school then before that?
JJ: I did very well actually. My last examination at Ilfracombe Grammar School I was first in every subject except one and when we were having to leave my grandparents had to move away to make some money somewhere as their capital was running out the headmaster told me that I was an absolute cert. There were two university places at Cambridge in those days and he said, ‘If you could have stayed here you’d have, without a doubt you would have got one of them.’ But I didn’t know at the time until we got to Portsmouth that I was having to leave school and help in the family shop. So that was a bit of shock needless to say.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: And I did that for three years until I was eighteen and on the very day I was eighteen as I say I went down and joined the RAF and they accepted me when they saw my Grammar School report.
GT: So, all your subjects were fabulous except one.
JJ: I was first in every subject except one.
GT: And what was that?
JJ: I think that was Religious History [laughs]
GT: Fabulous. So, once you’d gone to sign up and they’d accepted you —
JJ: Yeah.
GT: Please continue that story on how long you waited and where you joined up from there.
JJ: Yeah. I waited about, I think seven or eight months before I was called up for attestation in London and then I was in the RAF. So we went to [pause] I’ve got it here. Sorry. I have it here and I can’t bloody well read it. [pause] Terrible this. I’m on the wrong page. Sorry. Oh. [pause] Here we are. 9 Initial Training Wing at Stratford on Avon, is it? Stratford on Avon. I can’t see the dates. If you want to have a look here.
GT: No. That’s alright Jack. So, you were then —
JJ: Initial Training Wing for pilot training. About six weeks and then we went, I went to EFTS at Swindon, Cliffe Pypard where I soloed fairly quickly. And I had done about twenty hours when we were informed that the system was training. They were introducing grading school for everybody but the training would be done overseas. Either in the states, Canada or, or was Africa —?
GT: Rhodesia?
JJ: Rhodesia. That’s right. So, I went across to Canada and we got on the train for three days down to Florida. And I, the first thing they told us that the scheme we were under twenty, a good twenty percent would be washed out at Primary School, another twenty percent at basic and a further twenty percent the final school because that was the way they got, the American way they got all their gunners, navigators etcetera. So I passed out fine in the Stearman at sixty hours. Lots of aerobatics. A lot more than we did in the UK. You could throw the Stearman all over the skies. It was a wonderful biplane. Then I moved on in Montgomery Alabama for basic training and of course I’d only done about seven or eight hours I think and the course ahead of us did a cross country, their final cross country and they ran into a tornado and about twenty nine out of thirty three aircraft crashed. So I think morale was a bit down that morning and when I landed I had a German instructor, Lieutenant [Kloppenstein] and he just said, ‘Mr, you’ve had it.’ Bad landing. And I was fourteen days leave and then back to Canada.
GT: So, he cancelled you from flying training.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: Because of one bad landing.
JJ: An American. Virtually one sortie I think, yeah. Twenty percent were being knocked out anyway around about then you see and I’m sure I was shaking. A friend of mine was [unclear] before so we got fourteen days leave and we went down to New Orleans. Hitch hiked down to New Orleans. Then we went back and up to Trenton, Ontario where you were re-selected. Whilst at Trenton I met two pilots who had been washed out at Carlstrom Field, Arcadia, Florida for not being sufficiently doing well and they went back to Canada then and they put them on a pilot’s course and they got their wings whilst I was washing dishes in the officer’s mess [laughs] Met them. Three months and they’d got their wings. That was the system. Anyway, I opted for a navigation course and did well on it and then came back to the UK on the Queen Elizabeth with about fourteen thousand aircrew. Mostly Americans. And we stayed in Harrogate for a few weeks waiting for OTU. I then went to Operational Training Unit. That’s right. Where we all met in a room. About ten of each grade. Navigators, pilots, wireless operators and they just said, ‘Have a chat around and sort yourselves out into crews,’ which we did.
GT: So, so, Jack if we could just confirm the dates on here.
JJ: Ok.
GT: So, I’m, I’m just looking at your logbooks.
JJ: You’ve got the dates there, I think.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: So as a navigator January 1943 and you were then arrived at number 11 OTU at Oakley.
JJ: Oakley. That’s right.
GT: Yeah. April 25th 1943. So please tell us how you crewed up.
JJ: We just walked around with a cup of tea and chatted to people and mostly the pilots would say, ‘Would you like to fly with me?’ And this New Zealand sergeant came up to me and said, ‘Would you like to fly with me, sir.’ Because I was a pilot officer [laughs] And he seemed a nice fellow you know and I said, ‘Yeah, fine.’ And then we walked around and found a bomb aimer and a wireless operator. You didn’t get engineers then until you got to Dishforth training on to four engine aircraft. We picked up an engineer there. So we did the, the Wellington training cross countries and circuits and bumps etcetera. And then we went to Dishforth. 1335 or something HCU. Heavy Conversion Unit to convert on to the Stirling.
GT: Ok. Now, again looking —
JJ: Did I say Dishforth? Sorry no.
GT: From your logbook Jack can I just help you for a moment there? I’ve got there —
JJ: Near Cambridge.
GT: Yeah. Now, you, you completed with the Wellingtons forty seven hours day and twenty eight night and then you moved to 1651.
JJ: That’s right. 1665.
GT: 1651 Conversion Unit at Waterbeach.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: And there —
JJ: Waterbeach.
GT: That was July 1943 and you converted to what?
JJ: Converted on to the Stirling at Waterbeach and then we were posted to 75 New Zealand Squadron at Mepal.
GT: And your logbook says July 25th 1943.
JJ: Was it as late as that?
GT: Yeah.
JJ: I thought it was earlier.
GT: And then, then you became —
JJ: That was probably the first flight.
GT: You began your operations then did you not? So —
JJ: Immediately. Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: That’s right.
GT: And who was the —
JJ: You just —
GT: Commanding officer at the time, Jack.
JJ: Pardon?
GT: Who was the commanding officer at the time for you?
JJ: Roy Max I’m sure. A wonderful fellow. Absolutely wonderful. I met him later on. It was the first time an officer had called me by my first name. We just walked into his office and he says, ‘Hello Jack,’ you know, ‘Pleased to meet you.’ No officer of any rank [laughs] and I’d been in for about a year had called me by my first name before. He was wonderful. We loved him. Yeah.
GT: Fabulous. And is there —
JJ: A marvellous CO you know.
GT: And you, you completed your tour of how many operations on 75?
JJ: I think it was about twenty six because we went in to, we called it Prayer Meeting about 9 o’clock every morning which was just a meeting you know. It wasn’t no prayers or anything and the CO said, ‘Flight Sergeant Mayfield —’ and there was another crew, ‘You’ve finished your tours.’ And we sort of thought, ‘You’re joking.’ And he said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘3 Group has decided you, you know you’ve done a good tour and they’d like you to, well they want you to finish your tour now.’ So we couldn’t believe it you know. We thought we’re going to live after all [laughs] which you didn’t think you were before that you know. We lost so many crews. I think we lost twenty two out of, two out of twenty two every night.
GT: 75 New Zealand squadron at the time and they were based —
JJ: Yeah.
GT: At Newmarket for you or Mepal?
JJ: No. Mepal. They’d just moved to Mepal when I joined them. Yeah.
GT: That was a brand new airfield.
JJ: A new airfield. There was mud everywhere, you know and we were in Nissen huts but that was alright.
GT: And it had a rather terrible nickname at the time.
JJ: They were known as the Chop Squadron in 3 Group. Everybody knew 75 for some reason as the Chop Squadron because they lost so many crews. But there was nothing wrong with the crews. They were absolutely first class wonderful chaps. Never flown with anyone better and we were just, somebody had to be unlucky and it seemed that we were whether we were the start of a raid or the end of the raid, wave or something we just [pause] I’m sure one night we lost three crews. One had done twenty seven, it sticks in my memory and they were almost finished their tour. One at twenty three and I think the other one was fourteen and I think at the time we’d done thirteen. We were then the senior crew on the squadron. But three best crews like that just went. A fighter or something must have got into them you know. They were close together. But they were first class crews you know. But it wasn’t very good for morale. We lost our radio operator after one trip actually. He went LMF and we had another w/op and two more trips he went LMF. They disappeared over night, you know. You didn’t see them to say, ‘Goodbye mate.’ One was Wally [Gee] I remember. He was twenty seven. We called him grandad. He was older than we were at twenty, twenty one but a nice lad but he got the shakes and he couldn’t do anything when we got back in the circuit and he was gone in the morning and the other one the same. There was quite a lot of LMF at the time. People couldn’t cope, you know.
GT: What, what was the feeling about the aircraft? The Stirling itself. Was there a doubt?
JJ: We liked it you know. We came back several times on three engines and once on two you know and the only trouble was you rarely got about fourteen thousand six hundred feet because you know they’d had this trouble. They’d locked off, had to lop off the wingtips. They couldn’t get them in the hangar before they went in to service. And it couldn’t get the height with the bomb load. You couldn’t get, rarely got to fifteen thousand. I think we got to fifteen thousand on the trip to Turin in the cold air over the Alps. But the rest of the time it was about fourteen six for bombing. Halifaxes at eighteen and Lancs at twenty, twenty one.
GT: Were all your operations at night?
JJ: Yeah. In the first tour.
GT: And did you encounter night fighters at all?
JJ: Oh, a lot, yes. We were, we had some very close deals you know with night fighters coming in but luckily the rear gunners were good. They seemed to go somewhere else you know. Sprayed. We always came back with holes, flak holes in the wings and everywhere. Holes everywhere in fact. But, and I think about three times we had to corkscrew with a gunner coming in and you’d lose about a thousand feet like this, you know. And if you were coned the Germans, had some searchlights that were on radar and if you were coned you had a devil of a job and you were a sitting target for the night fighters then. So you did a terrific, lost a thousand feet or so over ninety degrees down and then up and my stuff on the navigation table would all hit the roof. I was hanging on to the table. I would have hit the roof. But pencils and paper and everything went up and down on the floor but you were lucky. You avoided being shot down.
GT: That was your tail gunner yelling, ‘Skipper corkscrew left or right.’
JJ: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He did it immediately.
GT: Could you hear him? Could you brace yourself?
JJ: Oh yes. ‘Corkscrew.’ So you grabbed the desk you know and you went over and down about a thousand feet and then up again and it seemed to work every time. You evaded the fighter or the searchlights. It happened I would think on the first tour at least six times because I remember blooming charts and everything going up to the roof. Trying to hang on.
GT: Was your skipper good at that?
JJ: Very very good. He was first class. Cool as a cucumber. No bother. He was. We had the utmost trust in him. He was a very good pilot. Very good. Yeah. Alan. Wonderful. I was so sorry I couldn’t get in touch with him at the end of the war, you know. I’d have liked to have done.
GT: Several, several other chaps have told me of a story of being on the toilet can in the back when a corkscrew happened and it wasn’t very pleasant so —
JJ: No [laughs] it wouldn’t be. No. Had to make your way down to the toilet you know in pitch darkness. Climb over the spar and feel your way down. They used to say take an oxygen bottle with you. I just took two deep breaths, you know and then had a whiff down there and then came back. Usually managed to wait until after the target area to go for a wee. I couldn’t do that nowadays.
GT: Yeah. Fabulous. So —
JJ: But they had a wonderful spirit in the crew despite all these losses. In all the crews you know. The only words you ever heard at breakfast someone would say, ‘Poor old Gerald Smith and Dick Tracey bought it last night.’ And that was what we always said. ‘Bought it last night.’ And that was it. You didn’t talk any more about it. I think you couldn’t. It would have upset you you know where they’d gone. You just hoped they’d baled out but you never knew. We never had the messages back. That was just, that’s all you ever said. So and so bought it last night. Oh God. Hard luck. Then you got on with your job. You had to.
GT: What was it like flying into Newmarket because I understand —
JJ: I didn’t fly from Newmarket. Mepal.
GT: I beg your pardon. Mepal.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: You were flying out of Mepal then and you had Witchford next door.
JJ: That’s right.
GT: So did the two airfields conflict at all?
JJ: Then when we came back we did a circuit around the two airfields. So there were about forty aircraft milling around and sometimes you had to put your lights out because there would be a Jerry around you know. A fighter. And, and often VHF was so bad then, the HF was the wireless operator would get the ok to go in and land, you know on the Morse. The voice communications were terrible then in ‘43. They improved later.
GT: Because Lincoln always had their cathedral to home by. What did Mepal have that you guys could home in on?
JJ: We had a light. A flashing light, you know. What do you call it? I can’t think of the light giving the two letters of the airfield.
GT: The aldis lamp.
JJ: You had, you had Gee. Gee was just starting up. The first Gee we had the Mark 1. It was terrible, of course. It wouldn’t, you would just set it up and ten minutes later it would go off frequency. But fairly quickly after in that first tour we got Mark 2 Gee and that was a great help and that was good for getting back to base. It was wonderful. You could just home down easily. It was really good if that was working and it usually was. It was a wonderful aid that was. We got that going out as far as the Dutch Coast and then you lost it so you could get good winds as far as the Dutch Coast and then you were on dead reckoning and guessing what the winds were from what they’d been wrong. The Met winds were always thirty degrees out and ten miles an hour but they were something to start with. But you usually got a wind, a good wind by the time you touched the Dutch coast from the Gee. We took pictures back I think about every four minutes or something like that while you’d still got it. Wonderful aid.
GT: And what about the the Ely church or the spire from the Ely side of things.
JJ: I don’t think we ever saw that.
GT: You couldn’t see it.
JJ: No.
GT: No.
JJ: No. We did training on it on our next tour with GH. I’ve got a lovely photograph with the tower right bang in the middle because I was the GH leader in the second tour on 218.
GT: Right. Well, I’ve got you completing your tour —
JJ: December.
GT: Well, November 26th was your last flight with 75 New Zealand squadron out of Mepal.
JJ: ’43.
GT: In 1943.
JJ: That’s right.
GT: Yeah. And, and from there where did you move to from there because your crew was —
JJ: I went direct. Myself and my bomb aimer both went to Lancaster Finishing School which was at Feltwell as instructors and my pilot went to another airfield not far away. I can’t remember where because later on one night we cycled over there and then got caught by a policeman coming back. Funny story. Do you want to hear that?
GT: Please. I’d love to.
JJ: Right. Jock Somerville, the bomb aimer and myself got a call from Alan Mayfield one day to say he’d just been commissioned because he was just a flight sergeant when he went to, I can’t think of the name of the airfield. It was only about six miles away. And he said, ‘I’ve just been commissioned. Can you get a bicycle and come over for Sunday tea?’ So we got the out the old [Senda] bike you know and we went off on the Sunday afternoon for tea. We didn’t drink. No one was really drunk in those days you know. All the times on the first tour I never had a drink of spirits or beer or anything. I don’t think the majority of the rest of the crew did. Alan Mayfield didn’t. It was difficult. I was in the officer’s mess and the rest of the crew were in the sergeant’s you see so you couldn’t have much to do with one another other than crew room and what not. But we all got on so well together but so we went over to Chedburgh would it have been? No. Not Chedburgh. That’s where I did my second tour. I can’t think of the name. Six miles away roughly. So we went over and then he said, ‘Well, you know, stay for dinner, you know.’ So we stayed for dinner and I think we did have a couple of beers because he’d been commissioned. So we were on our way back to Feltwell and there was a light ahead of us waving so we slowed up and there was a blooming policeman in the middle of the road. So, I don’t know whether Jock or I said, ‘Go.’ And he went one side of the policeman pedalling like mad and I went the other and we went about thirty yards and there was a barrier across the road [laughs] I had to stop. So of course, the policeman came along and you know we said, ‘Well, we’ve been a year, or you know, months bombing over Germany. We’ve just had a rest now.’ And he said, ‘I’m sorry. I’ll have to take your names.’ And we thought that was the end of it. We cycled on and I was lecturing about 2 o’clock in the afternoon. There was a tap on the door and there was this blooming policeman and oh, Jock had said his name was Smith and I said it was Jones [laughs] So he said, ‘Are you Mr Jack Jones.’ And I said, ‘I’m afraid so.’ He said, ‘I’m sorry but you’re going to be summoned.’ And believe it or not we were summoned to the local court for riding a bicycle without lights at 11 o’clock at night on a country road with no, no traffic or anything at all. Well, I went into Ely Hospital to have my tonsils out then. I’d had some throat trouble. Jock went along to the court and he was fined ten shillings. And then they called my name and Jock explained that I was in hospital and the judge said, ‘Fifteen shillings.’ Well, Jock was a very fiery Scotsman and he jumped up and he said, ‘You can’t do that. We were both together and you fined me ten shillings and fifteen shillings for him.’ Well, the judge said, ‘Very well, you can find, you can pay fifteen shillings as well.’ [laughs] You can’t believe it can you? In the middle of the war.
GT: Astonishing. Jeez. So —
JJ: It was quite a joke.
GT: What a joke. Jack, I’m looking through your logbook and you joined Number 3 Lancaster Finishing School at Feltwell.
JJ: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: January 8, 1944 and, and pretty much you spent all year there. Is that correct?
JJ: Yeah. Ten, ten months before I was back on ops.
GT: So how many crews would you have trained or lectured or shown?
JJ: I think the crews came for a month because they did quite a bit of circuits and bumps and then they did a couple of cross countries and then went off. Crews coming mostly from the, from Cambridge you know. There.
GT: So, you’d done a full tour on Stirlings and then went to a Lancaster Finishing School.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: Where did you get your Lancaster training from or didn’t it matter?
JJ: Oh, it just, well I mean the equipment was all the same. It was no bother. You just got in. We didn’t do much. Sometimes I flew on a cross country with a crew but that was just finishing. Most of it was circuits and bumps and lecturing in the, you know, ground school lecturing. The information you could give them. How to, you know, be sure and keep on track, not to stray off because they picked up the strays and other little tips you learned from navigating, you know. How important it was to keep in the main stream and not get out of it. Things like that we used to give them. Other odds and ends. There wasn’t a lot of Ground School but they did a couple of cross countries and we had to mark them of course and you know help them with any tips or anything on navigating. It was mainly after you crossed the coast you were on your own. You hardly got a fix on anything you see. You couldn’t get anything. You couldn’t anything in the Astro. I used to do a bit of Astro coming back but not on the way out to the target. Bomb aimer would look out and he would see probably fifteen miles away flak going up. Someone had gone off track and you knew that that was some town you know or other and you could get a bearing. He’d give me a bearing on that on the astrocompass. And that was a good ground speed check or something like that you see as you went out and you just used your Met knowledge mainly to think what the winds had changed to and then you always got a good fix over the target. That’s why I never got into the astrodome except once because you got a fix there and you got your, you could get a good wind for the last three or four hundred miles you see to use on the way back.
GT: So your bomb aimer helped you with a lot of the navigational help.
JJ: With the visual. If we, if it was clear he might be able to see crossing a river on the way just if the moonlight was out. He could say, ‘We’re crossing a river now.’ And that was a great help. You could look it up on the topographical map and that would be a hell of a good help and give an estimate, ‘Oh, there’s a town over — ’ And he’d take a bearing on it with the astrocompass coming up and say I would think it was about, you know just a guess ten or twelve miles away. Well, that was a great help. One of the greatest things was you knew if you got a lot of buffeting from time to time you knew you were in the main stream then, you know. There’s about six hundred other aircraft going that way. So you were delighted to get a bump, you know. You knew you weren’t far away from the from the main stream.
GT: When you were in the main stream did you have aircraft above you and therefore they were dropping their bombs? Did you have any near misses in that way?
JJ: We had a very near miss. I’m not sure if it was first tour or second on Peenemunde. The end of the tour I think. You know there was the rocket range there. It’s the first tour wasn’t it?
GT: So that was the V-1 flying Doodlebugs.
JJ: No. The V-2.
GT: It was the V-2s was it?
JJ: V-2s they were developing there. I think they’d done the V-1 already. Is Peenemunde? I think. I thought Peenemunde was on the first tour.
GT: Ok. So, so what happened there? The bombs went past you.
JJ: We flew up nearly to Sweden and then we were bombing from eight thousand feet coming in and the Stirlings were on the first wave. Have you found Peenemunde?
GT: That’s fine. You carry on telling the story and I’ll see.
JJ: It was the first time I’d managed to get into the astrodome because it was fairly quiet flying in. There wasn’t a lot of flak or anything and I looked up and saw a Lancaster just above us probably not more than sixty or seventy feet, maybe a hundred feet with bomb doors, bomb doors open and I screamed at the pilot, ‘Turn hard starboard now, now, now.’ And he immediately went up and as the wing went up the stick of bombs went down about twenty yards. Where we’d been. And they would all have gone through us. You see, the bomb aimer’s looking ahead. Doesn’t see something here. And that was a Lancaster actually. I reckon he was early on target. He shouldn’t have been above us. We were just eight thousand feet but that was the nearest we ever had of having bombs through the wing. I certainly wouldn’t have been here now if I hadn’t gone into that astrodome. You see the mid-upper gunner is busy looking around at his level for fighters and didn’t think to look up. But it was a very close shave.
GT: Great.
JJ: It didn’t miss us by more than twenty yards I reckon. You could see every five hundred pounder going down.
GT: Your bomb loads that you had was there anything special or everything was just cookies, five hundreds?
JJ: Usually had a cookie. Four thousand. Four thousand and made up of five hundreds and incendiaries depending on what the target was, you know. Occasionally a few thousand pounders but mainly five hundreds.
GT: Did you do any special ops or was it all just standard?
JJ: No, it was all, the first tour was all standard targets. Yeah.
GT: So, from your time with Lancaster Finishing School did the crews come to you brand new from joining up or —
JJ: Yeah.
GT: Were there a mixture of experienced —
JJ: Yeah. No. Virtually no experience. They were all new trainees. There might be the odd pilot or the odd navigator doing a second tour. The odd pilot doing a second tour. But nearly everybody coming through LFS when I was there were first tour people, you know. They’d come from overseas, done OTU, conversion on to the Stirling at Cambridge and then they came to us to fly the Lancs.
GT: So once you’d finished at LFS was that your choice and did you apply for another tour?
JJ: No. You didn’t apply. You just went where you were told. Yeah.
GT: So they put you on a second tour without you asking.
JJ: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they just came through one day. December wasn’t it? Just before Christmas and said, ‘You’re posted to 218 Squadron.’ And I was off in about a week. Had a week’s leave and away we went. But I was delighted to get on the Lanc you know. Such a good aeroplane to fly. You know the Stirling soared up at this angle and you had a job to climb in. We had faith in the Stirling but we, I don’t know we knew that we’d have been better on Lancasters, you know. We just because the height you know. You got the light flak. You got all everything at fourteen thousand five hundred feet or so.
GT: What was your main height for the Lancaster bombing raids?
JJ: They were more about eighteen. Usually about eighteen or nineteen. You could get it up to twenty one but usually bombing height was eighteen or nineteen. We did quite a lot of daylight raids in ’45 on 218 and we, we qualified as a marker, GH marker so we had two aircraft formating on us. A daylight raid you had one either side. You know, a few yards off and then you had to watch us and push the bomb tit as our bombs went and even though the bomb aimer could see the aiming point he wasn’t allowed to push the tit until I said. On the GH was very accurate. You had two intersecting lines. You kept yourself on one and then said, ‘Bomb now.’ You know and you pushed the tit for the bombs. Lots on bridges and specialised targets. Mainly on bridge crossings it was in the book there, I think. Shorter trips. And of course, we had a bit of fighter cover as well so it was a lot safer. The losses weren’t anything like they were on Stirlings in ’44. ’43/44 was a bad time for everybody wasn’t it?
GT: So, the aircraft numbers for instance. Each, each squadron generally had twelve aircraft per flight.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: So 75 Squadron had three flights of twelve. Did 218 Squadron have that many and how many did you fly?
JJ: No. Two flights I’m sure. 218.
GT: Ok. You might have gone up with twenty four aircraft a night. Or a day trip perhaps.
JJ: Say again.
GT: Did you fly with twenty four aircraft all the time?
JJ: No. You know, there was always two U/S or something or you hadn’t the crews. If you lost two crews and two new crews would arrive that day. I think on average we put up twenty. Twenty aircraft. Sometimes twenty one and very occasionally twenty two but usually it was about twenty aircraft.
GT: Can you describe for me the purpose of a pilot from a new crew arriving and going as a second dickie? Can you describe that for me?
JJ: Well, all the pilot did when you arrived on the squadron your pilot went as a second dickie with an experienced crew just to get the feel of the thing. See what it was like, you know and learn a few tips on flying and corkscrewing and that sort of thing. And then you were on your own. And you always, I think you always did two mining trips. You did what do you call it? Probably got the name in there. You did a mining trip to just off Germany. The islands there.
GT: They did some gardening.
JJ: Gardening. It’s called gardening. That’s right. So you did that low. You dropped them from I think about a thousand feet. They were on parachutes you know and you got to the area, you got quite a lot of flak on that first area. There must have been a lot of ships around us. And we, I can’t remember if it was two or four and then we did a second gardening trip down to Bordeaux and we were coming back fairly low because we’d dropped the things low. And it was a nice moonlight night and bomb aimer was sitting in the nose then and he said, ‘There’s a train down below skipper. Let’s go down and shoot it up.’ So we did and we blew it up. When we got back to debriefing the intelligence officers said, ‘Don’t you ever do that again because they’re equipping most of the trains with, you know machine guns and whatnot because the fighters had been doing a lot of this and the train had got a chap with four Bofors guns or something and you hadn’t got a chance if you flew in at a hundred and twenty miles an hour. So we thought we’d done well, you know. We were thinking everybody was going to say, ‘Well done.’ [laughs] But they said, ‘Don’t ever do it again.’
GT: You got lucky.
JJ: It was quite fun to see this train blow up.
GT: Some crews have told me that they did a whole tour without using their nose guns. Did you in your tours did they use them at all?
JJ: That’s the only time we used it. On the train. Nose and the tail. Yeah. No. We never saw anything in front. Fighters came up behind you and underneath you see. So no bomb aimer never fired those guns. He used to test them and that was all.
GT: And that was going to be my next question. Do those that man those guns in the nose was generally going to be the bomb aimer if —
JJ: The bomb aimer in the front.
GT: If he needed to.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. So going into your second tour then Jack so you were posted off to 218 Gold Coast Squadron.
JJ: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: And Gold Coast is Australian or South African?
JJ: South Africa.
GT: South African side.
JJ: I think. I’m sure it was South African.
GT: And there was a South African connection like New Zealand had.
JJ: There must have been some connection in, you know a lot earlier. They had Gold Coast in brackets for some reason or other. We never met anybody from the Gold Coast or anything. It was probably the first war. They might have provided some people. Fighters or something and they kept the name going when they resurrected it anyway.
GT: So when you were posted on did you get a choice of a crew or did you just get given?
JJ: No. I was posted. Posted there and arrived and, ‘This is your crew.’ You know. The pilot was a first tour. I was second tour and the two air gunners were second tour. Great chaps. They were a bit older than me. They were thirty one and they’d both been gunnery leaders on different, you know, in between and they were first class they were. So —
GT: Your logbook shows that you, you did, you arrived there in February 1945.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: And you continued on from your first tour of twenty one ops and you did your twenty second op on February the 7th. So —
JJ: That’s right.
GT: So was there anything outstanding about 218? Anything that you remember that was of note.
JJ: Well, I don’t want it to go in the book. The CO. Are you recording?
GT: Yes.
JJ: No. I won’t say anything.
GT: Ok. Whatever.
JJ: I’ll tell you afterwards. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. So, so you got various. I can see day and night flights here.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: And —
JJ: We had a good, we had a good crew. We had two excellent gunners and we did get the odd other attack. I think I did a Berlin trip there didn’t we? Yeah.
GT: Right. So, I’ve got your second operational tour was completed on the 24th of April 1945 and your total operational hours by day sixty eight hours and total operational nights fifty hours. Total grand operational hours a hundred and nineteen and ten minutes.
JJ: That was a full tour anyway for me and a second tour was, was that.
GT: Now, for your work you were awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: Can you tell me about that please?
JJ: There’s not much to say. I think I’d probably been a good navigator. Good results, you know from our bombing and everything. So for some reason or other I was awarded the DFC. Nobody else in either of the crews was actually so I think, I think I was a good navigator. We didn’t have any problems. We had one dicey coming back trip when we were on two engines coming across France and the engineer said we were losing fuel. We’d been shot up a bit. I can’t remember which, I think we landed right at the end. Bradwell Bay. And coming across France and I managed to pick out a diversion airfield and got us there and as we’d taxied around the, as we were going in to land the engineer said the tanks are just about empty. As we taxied around the runway all four engines cut. Another five minutes and we wouldn’t be here now anyway.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: We’d have stalled out but we’d had, we knew we were losing fuel you know and we’d had fighter attacks and whatnot but we couldn’t do anything about it. We just made it to the South Coast so that was Bradwell Bay. So we went, left the aircraft and went back on the train with parachutes and everything else [laughs] nav bags and sextant.
GT: Were your aircraft replaced pretty quickly if you lost any?
JJ: Yeah. We didn’t usually fly in the same aircraft. At 218 we did. We had Queenie that had done about fifty, sixty trips and we did quite a few trips in Queenie. And she features in some of the post-war picture books, you know. That one lasted, oh it was just about the end of the war when we finished anyway. But otherwise, you know we never had an aircraft last long enough you were different aircraft nearly every, pretty well every night.
GT: Your logbook shows Queenie to be LM577 and your total operational tally of sorties was forty one.
JJ: I don’t know.
GT: Now, for me that’s, the use of the word mission was —
JJ: No.
GT: Was not correct and you guys did operations.
JJ: Yeah. We didn’t call it missions. The Americans called it missions. We never used the word mission. No. So many ops was the term. Nobody ever used missions. No.
GT: Fabulous. Alright so and then once you had finished your last operation, your forty first one there and that was April 1945 what happened to you after that? Was it VE day to come?
JJ: I was posted. No. It was just before and I was first tour, second tour you see. The rest of the crew and the gunners were second tour. They told us we’d finished our tour. The pilot and the engineer and the wireless operator hadn’t finished. They were on their first tour so they were left and they, I went on leave for a fortnight and when I came back they started dropping the food to the Dutch. So I went along to see the CO and said, ‘I’m posted up to Catterick, you know to get me out of the way. I’d like to stay and fly with my crew.’ Well, I don’t want this to go on the — turn it off.
GT: Ok.
[recording paused]
JJ: Ok. I think the flight commander or the station commander must have put up for the DFC because I got it just, just before I finished my tour and I was the only member of that crew to get one and my other crew hadn’t either. First tour. So I had to be off to Catterick to Selection Board trying to find someone to take the place of all the bank managers and people who had been doing admin jobs. So I was sent off to be adjutant at [pause] it was near Lincoln. Fighter Sector Headquarters. Wonderful. I thought my God some people have had an easy job. It was a Fighter Sector with about sixty, seventy girls and about ten airmen and a group captain, a wing commander and a squadron leader in charge of it. And they had Group Captain Arthur Donaldson as head of them. A fighter man. Wonderful chap and he insisted on having a beer every lunchtime actually [laughs] And it only lasted about three months I think and they closed the station down, you know. They didn’t need Fighter Sector Headquarters any more. And I went from there to Molesworth which was 1335 Conversion Unit for Meteors. Jets.
GT: Now we’re talking February 1946.
JJ: That’s right. And I was the first navigator to fly in a, in a jet because they converted one on the station. The engineering officer went for the first trip and I went up for the second. That was before they had dual seats in the, in the Meteors. Wonderful. Zoom. I loved it.
GT: I’m looking at your logbook and that flight was October the 16th 1946 in EE229 Meteor 1 and your pilot was Flight Lieutenant Williams. That’s pretty fair for twenty minutes. Yeah.
JJ: Yeah. I was —
GT: So with your DFC, Jack did you get handed it or did you have to go and get —
JJ: No. I got the letter from the, signed by George, you know saying I’m sorry I can’t give it to you.
GT: In person.
JJ: But well done. That sort of thing.
GT: You didn’t have to go down to the —
JJ: Didn’t have to go down to the Palace. No. No.
GT: So, did your CO just pin it on you or —
JJ: No. Just got it in the post I think. I can’t remember the CO giving it to me.
GT: God.
JJ: He might have done but he wasn’t on the squadron, you see. I’d moved on.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: Admin jobs and whatnot there.
GT: So after the war had finished were you given an option to carry on? And you were what rank by then?
JJ: I was flight lieutenant then.
GT: Ok.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: So did you get given an option to stay on in the peacetime?
JJ: No. Just with your age they just said, you know, ‘You won’t be demobbed for another year or so.’ So then I went from [pause] I went down to Chivenor as adjutant. I went to I think Molesworth first. That’s right. Molesworth and Bentwaters. That’s where we had the Jet Training Unit. Yeah. And from Bentwaters, oh I had a chat on the phone to the [unclear] people at Command one day. They were very friendly you know and they said, ‘Is there anything you wanted to do?’ And I said, ‘Well, I want to get back on flying.’ They said, ‘We can’t do that but there’s a job going as adjutant down at Chivenor.’ So that was the Spitfire OTU sort of thing you know. They were still converting people then flying Spits. So I went down to Chivenor and I seemed to get on well with the CO there who hadn’t been a flying man during the war. He was a very nice man but we had several Spit accidents you know and I had to arrange funerals and things. Totally new. Never had any experience of all these jobs and one day he said, ‘Would you like to apply for a permanent commission?’ I think I’d been there about six months. He said, ‘I’ll recommend you if you like.’ So I was delighted. Didn’t really know what I was going to do when I went there. I wanted some different job than the one I’d been doing before you know and I hadn’t had any training. And I got a permanent commission while I was there you know. Group Captain Whitfield or something. Something like that. I can’t remember his name. But I don’t think I did any, I don’t think they had, they had an Oxford or something there I flew around in but not very much. I think I did about eighteen months there and I was constantly court martials and things. Talking to the [unclear] people at Command and I always said, ‘When am I going back on flying?’ And they came up one day and said, ‘We can’t get you back into Bomber Command. We don’t move people there.’ From where I was it was fighter I think or something or training but he said, ‘Would you like to go on to Hastings?’ I had to do all refresher courses because I’d been off flying for about three years. So I went to Swinderby on Wellingtons and then Hastings up at [pause] oh dear. By the Great North Road. You’ve got it there. Dishforth. And another refresher course at somewhere. Somewhere near there. Anyway, Dishforth was the Hastings course and I went to a squadron. 511 Squadron at Lyneham on the Hastings and I loved it and I’ve still got a, you know you had a grading system. You had to pass exams. I was sort of a fully fledged passenger and everything else. We did trips to Singapore. The Middle East mainly. Usually did about one trip a month or two months to Singapore. Did lots of trips to the Middle East freight and passengers. A lot of passengers.
GT: Jack, I’ve got you 241 OCU. You were there from December 31, 1949. And you —
JJ: About three months.
GT: You flew right there to the end of March 1950 and then you joined 511 Squadron.
JJ: 511 Squadron.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: That’s right.
GT: April 1950.
JJ: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: And you flew with them right through to [pause] well your logbook goes on up until 1952. So you were flying all over the world with the Hastings.
JJ: Yeah. Mainly the Far East. Not the world but I think we did one trip to America. I can’t remember now. Maybe not. I think we went to the Azores but I can’t remember. But mainly it was to the Middle East and the Far East. I went to Japan. The war was on then and we took winter vests out for the British who had been sent out in the middle of winter without any winter clothing. And we actually arrived there the day before Christmas and we said, they said, ‘Oh, you needn’t fly over on Christmas day.’ It was an American base you see. And we said, ‘Well these chaps need these vests. We’ll go.’ So on Christmas Day we flew over to Tokyo and we had to orbit for fifty minutes before we landed. The jets, American fighter jets were just around and around you know. The Korean War. We landed. They all came over because they hadn’t seen an aeroplane sitting up like this before [laughs] They were quite surprised. Wondered what it was and then we went back and went into the mess and they said, ‘Sorry they had lunch at lunchtime. There’s no food.’ [laughs] At that time funnily enough I had an American pilot on an exchange scheme, a Polish co-pilot and an Irish wireless operator and we had a bottle of whisky between us and went to bed. That was our Christmas. Christmas dinner. We hadn’t had any food over in Tokyo. You know. Too busy. But that was something to remember.
GT: So then you moved over to, I see Valettas. What squadron were you with there?
JJ: Valettas. Oh, what did I do in between?
GT: In Libya.
JJ: Libya. Yeah. I went out to, I was posted out to Castel Benito in Libya as adjutant and I was promoted there after about six months to squadron leader. So I was posted down to the Canal Zone and I was in charge of the, mainly with the Army dropping paratroops and doing the routes down to Livingstone and all over the place there for a bit. And then for some reason or other, oh that was it the senior admin officer at Shallufa down in the Canal Zone was repatriated for inefficiency or something like that and I was sent down as senior admin officer. There was a wing commander there and we had the Lincolns used to come out and do their bombing on the bombing range there. So I was there until probably about eighteen months. The station closed down and I actually handed over to the Egyptians and they’d all been trained at Cranwell. There was about six majors came along. Everybody on the station had gone except myself then and the Egyptians arrived and our lads, a few left to guard the place were flown home and I handed over to these Egyptians. So I’d laid on a lunch for them and it was a good lunch and the first thing they said was, ‘Have you got any whisky?’ And we brought out, luckily we’d got a crate of whisky left and they all had whisky. Lots of whisky with their lunch. Then we brought the flag down and put theirs up and I was off to Fayid. And I’d left my car. I’d bought a car at Castel Benito and I had to leave it there for eighteen months but the young MT officer used to look after it for me and I arrived back and the family were actually out there then. They did come out to Shallufa. The wife and the two boys about five and six. So we all flew back to Shallufa and I said, ‘I’m not putting my car on a boat and taking it home. I’m driving home.’ And I got the ok to drive all the way. Five thousand miles. North African coast, back through France and I arrived back about two days before Christmas Day. It took us six weeks and lo couldn’t get any film to take any pictures on the way but it all went fine, you know. We’d find a little hotel every night and booked into it. Oh, the young, we had a great help. The young MT officer was going out of the Service and he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You couldn’t find room for me?’ I had the Ford Zephyr. A big car. I had big cases on the top you know and I said, ‘Oh, we can squeeze you in, Norman.’ So he came with us. Well, before we got to Algiers he said, ‘You know, the engine’s making a nasty noise. I think you’d better stop.’ So I stopped and he dipped the, I didn’t know there was a dipstick for the engine oil. The oil. Gear oil. It was dry. So he said if we’d gone on another ten miles it would have seized up. So he went, he hitchhiked about twenty miles into one of the towns. I can’t think of which one. He said, ‘I couldn’t get the proper oil. I got some oil. That’ll get us to the next town.’ And it did and we got, there was a Ford dealer there you know and Northern Algiers. It wasn’t as far as that. No. I can’t remember where it was. Anyway, we got the car checked over and it was ok and filled up with the proper oil and we carried on. Crossed over from Tangier to Gib. My eldest son, it was misty, it was just before Christmas and suddenly Gibraltar appeared. I knew the skipper of the ship because I’d met him when he was on Hastings. He used to come in the mess you see. And two days later we were in what’s the [pause] Malaga. That’s right. David who was about six and a half then. He said, ‘You know dad. I’m going to join the Navy.’ It was this strip across, you know just the thing from, so I said, ‘You’re not joining the Navy until you go to university.’ But he applied to Dartmouth and was accepted. He served a year. He loved it but he said, he came home one day and he said, ‘Dad, I’m not going to be a normal Naval officer.’ It was a bit snotty you know and he liked to do what he liked and when he liked and he said, ‘I think I want to come out.’ So I saw his CO who said, he was doing engineering he said, ‘If he doesn’t come out within three months they won’t let him out because he was doing all the, getting all this training.’ He’d just done the service training. So anyway, we didn’t have to pay much but we got him out and he applied for university and all three accepted him. He went to Swansea and got a good degree in engineering and he’s the one who’s in America now. Seventy years old. Still working. Loving it.
GT: Well —
JJ: Teaching you know modern electronics and whatnot to everybody.
GT: Well, military is obviously in your family Jack and I’m looking at your logbook from 1954 in Shallufa and I can see the aircraft types range from the Hastings to the Valetta, Beaufighter and Pembroke.
JJ: Oh, we had the Beaufighter at Shallufa.
So the, well where was that from?
JJ: Used to go down and the CO flew in and I went with him and we used to go down and get fruit and veg from Akaba because the Egyptians wouldn’t let us buy any local fruit and veg. The NAAFI. So we used to go and fill it up there. Probably got a bit of whisky as well I think.
GT: So, by, by March 1955 you were back in England and it says here you were based in [Khormaksar?]. What aircraft types did you work on from there and where did you move to?
JJ: I went to 18 Group when I came back from first of all from the Middle East. I can’t remember which station. 18 Group were the headquarters at near Rosyth. Pitreavie Castle. That was it. It was the headquarters and it controlled all the aircraft in the Atlantic you know. All the Shackletons and everybody else in the Atlantic. Anti-submarine warfare. And there again I said, ‘Can I get back flying on Transport Command?’ And again the [unclear] people said, ‘We can’t. The Air Ministry do that. But if you like we can get you on to Shackletons.’ So I jumped at it and I went up to Kinloss and did the Shackleton course and I went to Ballykelly as a flight commander then for about two years.
GT: Two years on Shackletons.
JJ: Yeah. Great. We used to do, well fifteen hour trips mainly. One a month fifteen hours which was pretty wearying and you worked all the time. You didn’t just fly around. You had a rendezvous out with a submarine somewhere in the Atlantic you know and probably a ship and you got sonar buoys tracking the submarine. You did exercises with them out, two or three hundred miles out or more in the Atlantic and you used to get the odd ship, trip to Gibraltar as a bonus occasionally. But it was all anti-submarine work all the time you know tracking Russian submarines. Very interesting work photographing them if there were warships out. Fly alongside and wave [laughs]
GT: So, your logbook reads that you were on 204 Squadron for most of that time.
JJ: That’s right. I was flight commander.
GT: And then your last entry in your logbook is from MOTU, St Mawgan.
JJ: That’s right. I was posted down at OC Ground Training at St Mawgan. Again the Shackleton.
GT: And your last flight —
JJ: Operational Conversion Unit. Yeah.
GT: And your last flight showing 29 June 1966.
JJ: What was that in?
GT: Shackletons.
JJ: Shackleton. Yeah.
GT: And your final hours total two thousand two hundred and fifty two hours fifty minutes by day, and night six hundred and ninety three twenty five minutes. That’s, that’s a huge sum of hours there Jack.
JJ: Quite a lot isn’t it. Yeah.
GT: Total.
JJ: Yeah. It was a lovely aeroplane to fly in, the Shackleton you know. It was reliable and and the crew we had five radio, five radio operators and two that rotated the jobs. One on radar, one on tracking the sonar buoys, another one looking out and observing. One probably in the galleys [laughs] And I forget what the other one did but it was enjoyable flying you know. Good crew flying.
GT: So when did you retire from the RAF?
JJ: I went out from St Mawgan to Cyprus as OC of the ops room there. Most of our aircraft we had to control the Vulcans at [pause] what’s the place?
GT: Akrotiri?
JJ: Akrotiri. That’s right. Actually, I had all the Vulcan. I had top secret. It was more than top secret. It was something else. I had the safe with all the plans for a war with Russia. Even the air commodore wasn’t allowed to look at it, believe it or not. The air commodore. And I used to give him, he wanted, he only lived across the road like that in a big thing, you know and he used to come across to the Ops Room every morning for briefing. And then he found out in the UK they had television so they sent me back to Bomber Command to do a quick course on television presenting and we got television in and so I briefed him just across the road. Pointed to the targets every morning on the television. I can’t believe it. Absolute waste of money and we used to like to see him as well because he’d have a chat. He sat in his office with his briefing on the screen. Oh dear.
GT: So the ultimate for you was —
JJ: And from there I was OC. I went out with short notice from St Mawgan. The previous squadron leader was someone I knew. He had been CO of ASWDU, Air Sea Warfare Development Unit at Londonderry. Yeah, where, I did a tour there as well. He was a very efficient chap and he fell out with the group captain and he packed him up one weekend and sent him home. Said he wanted another officer. So I was, went out because they wanted a maritime man out there. I went out at about a week’s notice to, to Headquarters and took over the ops room there. And then I was coming out. I was due out at forty nine. So I put in an application to stay in you know to normal retiring age sixty years and they came back and said they couldn’t give me a flying job, you know. You know, flying. But they offered me to transfer to the supply branch so I went as OC. I did the course, and it was funny there were two of us. Two. A pole and myself had been wartime and the other, I think eighteen students were all university. Fellas and girls and we came top of the course. We didn’t know a thing about it but you see they were out at dances every night and enjoying themselves in the pubs and we were sitting, we sat together and swatted. Anyway, we came top of the course which was very satisfying and I went to the Helicopter Conversion Unit which was good because I never put that in my logbook, you know. I had the odd flight there and worked with them and I found it was the easiest job I’d had in the Air Force. Being OC Supply for a big unit, you know. I thought my golly some people have had an easy time. And from there I was very keen to settle in Scotland and I applied for any chance of a job at Kinloss. About the only place and they said no. But they offered me a job at Carlisle. OC packaging. So I went on another course and learned about packaging and I packed everything from a split pin to an aircraft wing you know at Carlisle. And again it was good. They were all civilian. They just had one squadron leader and then they were all civilians. The rest were people in the hangars you know. But we got on well again and I found it a piece of cake you know from flying days with all the troubles and things that happened when you were flying. It was, it was easy going. Yeah. Quite fun. So that was my career.
GT: And this, you retired from Carlisle.
JJ: I retired from Carlisle.
GT: And what year was that, Jack?
JJ: I tried to get a job, fifty five and thirty two. Seventy seven. I tried to get a job and I thought I’m in packaging you know. Equipment. I went to a big furniture place in Carlisle and I told him what I’d been doing and I said, ‘You know, we’ve got the computer and we put in automatic supply when something is sold and whatever.’ Well, they hadn’t got any and he said, ‘I’m afraid you’re too experienced.’ He was afraid I was going to take over his job. I said, ‘I’m quite happy to do a menial job. I just want a job to do something.’ So he said, ‘I’m sorry. No.’ He thought I was after his. And then I decided well I’d met Joyce. My wife and I hadn’t been getting on for a long time. You’re not putting this on tape are you?
GT: No. So ok, you met Joyce and —
JJ: I met Joyce and we got married after about three years. But the reason I haven’t been, you’ve got nothing on there I would have loved to have gone to New Zealand, you know. All the New Zealand people I knew I loved them. I got on so well with them and I loved fishing and I would have loved to have gone to South Island with a caravan but because I married after I left the Air Force Joyce wouldn’t get any pension from the RAF. They changed it now but not retrospective. So if I passed out you know as I very well could have done at any time on I didn’t tell them why. I just said no. I don’t want to go. She would have got about a hundred and ten pounds a week to live on you know. No pension from the RAF and no pension from her husband who had died. He was a bank manager. So she would have had about a hundred pounds, you know. I threw away thoughts about going to New Zealand.
GT: Did you keep in contact with any, one of the people from earlier crews like 75 or 218?
JJ: No. I tried to but they said their wartime crews you see. I wrote to the New Zealand government to ask for flight, well he’d been a pilot officer then and gave his name and they said they were sorry they couldn’t disclose. Perhaps they thought there might have been something funny. I don’t know. Then I wrote to the MOD about my bomb aimer, Jock earlier than that and they said they couldn’t give me any information and I presumed he’d been killed because he went back. He went back to 75, Jock Somerville for his second tour and I never knew that until I met his son Simon all these years afterwards and he’d survived and we could have seen. We were such good pals you know flying together. So that put paid really to any keeping in touch with people.
GT: Any, any other stories you can think of from your wartime Bomber Command?
JJ: I don’t think so really. Nothing at the moment. No.
GT: So you joined up for Bomber Command —
JJ: There was plenty of, you know, excitement. We invariably I should think every three trips you were attacked by a fighter or you had searchlights on you or something like that you know and you were corkscrewing and pretty worried and short of fuel. Fuel troubles you know from flak in the tanks and whatnot. Losing fuel flying back short. Diverted. Bad weather when you got back. You were always a bit worried. Quite a lot of aircraft they put oil drums out on the, I forget the diversion airfield now. Flare path you know and you could get in there if you pushed the fog out a few yards. But, well, I would think you know one flight in three you were a bit worried when you got back you know getting down and getting short of fuel and that sort of thing. One thing I’ll never understand that our squadron, 75 we only had a tot of brandy on two occasions after a long trip to Berlin. I think both occasions I think it was and yet you hear people from other squadrons used to get it regularly you know. A nip of brandy when you finished debriefing, yeah and went off to bed. But you see we were in Nissen huts on 75. I think there were five either side officers. Well invariably you know you probably got back 3 o’clock in the morning or something like that. You’d just get to sleep and the lights would go on and the adj would come in with the station warrant officer collecting up somebody’s kit. You know. It happened almost every trip you know. You could guarantee it. It was terrible really. So many people. You see there weren’t a lot of, there weren’t many commissioned navigators. The pilots, a lot of them there were still a lot of sergeant pilots you see. I had a sergeant pilot as well. But so there weren’t many commissioned people in Nissen huts you know but most of the pilots, most of them were pilots and they’d come in and just collect. The only good thing was that the New Zealanders used to get food parcels. They used to get oysters and I was afraid I didn’t fancy oysters then. Joyce loves them. I still don’t really like them. I tried one. And fruit cake. And we used to have these lovely fruit cakes around the little fire in the middle of the room you know. Had a job to get the fuel for it in the cold weather but the lads used to dish out this fruit cake all around and, which was lovely. Always remember that fruit cake from New Zealand. But everybody got on so well you know. You were, they were great people. I just loved them all I would have loved to have emigrated to New Zealand. If I’d had, if I hadn’t got the, you know the job, the permanent commission I would have definitely gone I think.
GT: You’ll be pleased to know that Roy Max’s medals have been loaned to us in New Zealand by his wife.
JJ: Oh good.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: Good. Marvellous. Wonderful. Now, Dickie Broadbent was my flight commander. Did you ever know him?
GT: I met Dickie Broadbent quite a bit.
JJ: I say I, I only spoke to him on the phone. I’d have loved to have gone down and met him somehow but the following year I think he died. I can’t remember the other flight commander’s name or, the bombing leader was a great fellow. We used to have long chats. He and another fellow before he joined the Air Force they used to go off into the mountains shooting deer. They’d go for about four months and they’d live on deer meat and porridge stuff that they made up for four months. And they said for the other month remaining they made enough money they kept some of the tails or something and others they took photos or what. Anyway, they were able to prove how many deer they’d shot and he said, ‘In that four months we both made enough money —' he wasn’t married, ‘To live it up in a good hotel for the other eight months of the year.’ Wonderful, wasn’t it?
GT: Yeah.
JJ: I saw a programme a couple of years ago. They don’t do that now. They go in helicopters and shoot them because there are far too many aren’t there?
GT: Yeah.
JJ: South Island. Yeah.
GT: Well, the farmer —
JJ: He was a great lad. I can’t remember his name now. He was the bombing leader and gunnery leader you know. I can’t think of his name. I used to have long chats with him about New Zealand you know. Particularly the island fishing. They’d take their fishing rod as well of course up there and they’d sleep on this for four months he said and then live it up in a hotel for the other eight months.
GT: So your aircraft preference? The Lancaster or the Stirling or the Shackleton?
JJ: Say again? The —
GT: Your preference.
JJ: Preference? I think the Lancaster you know. We had the utmost faith in it. I think it was mainly because the losses were so heavy on the Stirling. We still liked it, you know. We were, we were quite heavy on it and it got us back as I say a lot of times. Very often on three engines. More often than not on three engines all the way back. One would seize up or something or get shot up with a night fighter but we always got back alright. And we, we came back on two on one occasion whereas the Lanc would fly on two grand you know. You could almost fly on one once you got rid of the bombs. And of course, two years later or a year and a half later the equipment was more reliable. We had Air Position Indicators, and we had [pause] What did we have on the Shack? The API, the Air Position Indicator was a great help when they brought that out so you didn’t have to give a manual plot all the time you see what you were steering to get your winds. You wanted your manual plot and in a fix that would give you wind. But the API would give you an air position where you’d be if there was no wind you see. Work from the air pressure and whatnot of the pitot head. That was the great thing and we did and the last few trips on the Lancaster we had the oh, the radar. What did you call it?
GT: H2S?
JJ: H2S as well. And that was a great help navigation. You know you could pick up rivers and things like that. Made it so much easier at night. You’d see when you were crossing the river and it was wonderful check on ground speed and everything and small towns as well. You could work out where you were with that. So that was, that was that was the great thing about the Lanc. Having that. Once we got the H2S, we didn’t get it until about halfway through the tour I think but when we got it it was great. But the thing I remember the most was the good comradeship always, you know. No matter rank. NCOs didn’t mean any different you know when you were together. It didn’t matter if you were a sergeant or you were a squadron leader you were all doing your job and fine, you know. In the Shack we used first names for all the sergeant AO operator. You know, air signallers etcetera in the airplane. We used, we’d use the first names and then they brought in you must say, ‘Pilot to nav.’ You mustn’t use your name. That was getting on after the war you see on the Shackletons you’d got the people in Cranwell trained in MOD who said we’d got to get back to the old systems ,you know. Keep people apart.
GT: So Jack you’ve had a marvellous career in the RAF.
JJ: I enjoyed everything too. That’s the great thing you know. I was never unhappy. I wasn’t very happy on the flying you know. When you’re on ops you think God am I going to get back or not, you know. If I’m always thought if I’m lucky I’ll bale out. Try and get back or in a POW camp but I never expected. I wouldn’t have put any money on finishing a tour you know because chaps were disappearing every night really. First class chaps you know. Just couldn’t believe it. It was upward firing young guns cannon that the Jerries had were fatal you know. Particularly in the last year of the war. God. Remember was it Nuremberg we lost about ninety bombers I think, one night. Terrible. They got something wrong. Met winds or something and it was a clear night and they just shot them down. I went to Nuremberg and we did a, Joyce and I last year did a trip on the Rhine and we went to Nuremberg and I must say they showed all the pictures you know and I thought my God I can’t believe how they’d built it all up. Skyscrapers are going, you know. Wonderful.
GT: Did you think about the damage that was happening underneath you? Was it just a job or —
JJ: I didn’t think about the damage. I used to feel for the folks and families down there, you know. You’d think, God, what are we doing this to them for? You know. Because you know although you had, although you had an aiming point and hundreds of people were getting killed and injured as well and you used to think about that. I think night time when you’re in bed you thought oh poor blighters you know. What a crazy world this is. Sort of getting nowhere by pulverising the place to death and families you know getting blown apart. I used to think about that a lot actually. I think probably everybody did but you just had your job to do. Oh, I’ll show you those two pictures.
GT: Now, Jack, what, what did you have? Bomber Harris, he was your leader.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: What was thought of him?
JJ: We thought he was a good man. He was doing a good job.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: And and who did you have visit? Did you have anybody visit you on the squadron like the King or —
JJ: No. I always seem to be falling over nowadays. I lose my balance. No. We didn’t. We had, oh no that was after the war. I was on a fighter station and was it [ ] we got sort of five minutest notice. But annual inspections you know you get a fortnight to prepare and everything was on the top line but this fighter man you’d suddenly get a message to say he’s on his way down in a Spitfire. He just came down and he said, ‘I’d like to go and see the airmen’s mess.’ That was just after the war. He came down to Bentwaters I think. A very cheery nice fellow. But he, you know they couldn’t, you couldn’t fool him what was happening on the station. He did that all over the place apparently. They got the message on the VHF about a quarter of an hour before he arrived. He just walked down and invariably went along to the airmen’s mess and sergeant’s mess and wandered around for a bit and then cheerio and back again. It was good leadership wasn’t it?
GT: Yeah. Did they mention anything about Tiger Force to you?
JJ: No. This was for the Far East wasn’t it?
GT: Yeah.
JJ: Yeah. No. I finished my second tour you see so I, but the rest of the squadron thought they were probably going out. Yeah.
GT: Well, Jack I think we’ve covered a huge part of your —
JJ: I hope its been a help.
GT: Your career.
JJ: But a very good memory now you know for names etcetera but I enjoyed chatting to you anyway.
GT: Well, thank you Jack because this this will go into the archives at in Lincoln.
JJ: I think. And polish it up and —
GT: Yeah and it’s been it’s been an honour to sit and chat with you.
JJ: Yeah.
GT: For the time that you served.
JJ: Thank you.
GT: And it’s been marvellous so —
JJ: Thank you.
GT: I’m going to sign off now. This is Glen Turner who has been interviewing Mr Jack Jarmy and Jack whereabouts do you live?
JJ: Now?
GT: Gatehouse of Fleet.
JJ: Gatehouse of Fleet near Dumfries.
GT: Near Castle Douglas, Dumfriesshire.
JJ: In Scotland. So this is the 25th of July 2017 and my interview with Jack Jarmy is now concluded and this is Glen Turner saying thank you Jack very much for your service.
GT: Ok.
JJ: And your, your time tonight.
GT: Thank you. I hope it’s been useful.
JJ: Very much so.
GT: Ok. This is now the end of our interview.
JJ: Yeah. Yeah. Ok.
GT: Please show me your photographs, Jack.
JJ: My photographs as well.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: I’ve got no photographs of 75 but I’ve got two you weren’t supposed to pinch your bombing —
GT: Oh photographs.
JJ: The flash.
GT: The photoflash.
JJ: I’ve got one there.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: You can see where it is and that was the target. You can see it was.
GT: Obliterated. Yeah.
JJ: Just about.
GT: Flashed out.
JJ: Yeah. And I’ve got one picture of the old that I got somewhere or other. The Stirling. Only one. You know, you just couldn’t get photographs or anything. This is Canada. And there’s one more. That’s right. Is it Castel or something.
GT: Yes. It is. It’s got Castel there. Yeah.
JJ: Yeah. And this was Ely when I was doing afterwards on the Shackletons for the [pause] No. Sorry, 218 Squadron that must have been. Yeah. GH bombing. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Well that’s March ’45 you’ve got.
JJ: That was the target. That’s right. Yeah. That was the target and we qualified on that. On that picture and I managed to get that. There was something about 75 I cut out. I can’t read it now. My eyes aren’t very good.
GT: Ok. I’ll take a photograph of that tomorrow because it’s quite, quite small. So where you see that’s wrong too because it’s got the wrong crown on it.
JJ: Yeah. I see.
GT: Yeah. So where was this one? In Belgium.
JJ: They must have given us that in Belgium. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: That’s a shame.
JJ: That’s the —
GT: That’s a window with —
JJ: Yes. That’s right. When we went to this Belgian sergeant had resurrected and dug a swamp with a crowd of people obviously and got the Stirling out and they invited us over then, you know. Civic function. And they gave us a lovely time for about four days or so.
GT: What year was that Jack?
JJ: Now, it was the first year we were here so it’s, or the second year. Thirty years ago. Thirty years ago. Yeah. And that was a Stirling but I don’t know from which squadron it was but it was Mepal that arranged the trip.
GT: Ah. Ok.
JJ: You see. We went with a bunch of people from Mepal. That was in the Canal Zone and a Daily Mail reporter. That was when I was OC admin.
GT: Wow. [pause] Great photos.
JJ: Don’t know what those cuttings are. Must be something from the paper. I don’t know what there was.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: Cuttings from the paper. [pause] I don’t know what that was.
GT: It’s great It’s great that you’ve got some photographs. That you ended up on a four engine jobby again. Very good, Jack. And let’s just confirm the time for us. It is quarter past eleven at night
JJ: Ten past yeah
GT: Oh gosh. Well obviously, you’ve got a day tomorrow so we’d better —
JJ: Well just, we’ve got to get this freezer you know.
GT: Yeah.
JJ: No rush. We never go to bed before about 11 o’clock. Joyce is a night bird. She’ll stay up longer that I do.
GT: Well, those are probably —
JJ: Oh, I think that bit fell out.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Jarmy
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJarmyJFD170726, PJarmyJFD1703
Format
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01:38:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Jarmey was born in Romford Essex. At the age of five. following the death of his father, Jack moved to live with his grandparents in Illfracolme. Despite excellent results in all his subjects at Grammar School Jack left school at 15 to work in the family business. On his eighteenth birthday Jack signed up to join the Royal Air Force as a pilot and commenced training at No 9 Initial Training Wing at Stratford-upon-Avon followed by elementary flying training school at Swindon. Flying training continued in Florida and Montgomery Alabama flying Stearmans. Following a bad landing Jack was cancelled from flying training and transferred to Trenton Ontario for navigator training. On completion of training he returned to the UK onboard the Queen Elizabeth with 14,000 other aircrew. Jack joined No 11 operational training unit at RAF Oakley in April 1943 flying Wellingtons and completed his training at No 1651 heavy conversion unit at RAF Waterbeach flying Stirlings. Posted to 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal in July 1943, Jack completed 26 operations. He commented on the much-improved Gee Mk2 navigation system which he said was very accurate up to the Dutch coast. He also recalled being in the astrodome during the operation on Peenemünde and called on his pilot to corkscrew as he could see a Lancaster above them with their bomb doors open, the Stirling he explained had a much lower flying ceiling than the Lancaster. On completion of his first tour Jack trained crews at No 3 Lancaster finishing school at RAF Feltwell for ten months before joining 218 Squadron in early 1945 for a second tour of operations flying Lancasters. Jack commented on the increased accuracy of Gee-H navigation with multiple aircraft in formation with the Gee-H equipped aircraft during daylight operations. Jack had completed a total of 41 operations and remained in the RAF following a permanent commission. He served in a number of administrative and flying roles in the Far East and the UK including Shackeltons at RAF Ballykelly on anti-submarine maritime patrols, finally retiring in 1977.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
United States
Alabama
Alabama--Montgomery
Canada
Ontario
Ontario--Trenton
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany
Germany--Peenemünde
Contributor
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Jim Sheach
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1943-04-25
1943-07-25
1944-01-08
1945-02
1945-04-24
1977
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
11 OTU
1651 HCU
218 Squadron
75 Squadron
aircrew
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Feltwell
RAF Mepal
RAF Oakley
RAF Shallufa
RAF Waterbeach
Shackleton
Stearman
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/513/10829/AGoldstrawBJ180708.1.mp3
a564c931b4d363f769a9de476d7ee16e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Goldstraw, John Basil
John B Goldstraw
J B Goldstraw
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Goldstraw, BJ
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Basil Goldstraw (1925 - 2023). He served as a fitter with 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal, before being posted to Singapore.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: This is Sunday the 8th of July 2018 and I’m at the home of Mr John Basil Goldstraw, known as Basil or Bas, born 30 March 1925 in Buxton, Derbyshire, England. Basil joined the RAF in 1942 at the age of seventeen years doing a motor mechanic apprenticeship and later was grounded due to a medical condition so became an engines fitter on Stirlings and Lancasters. Basil was demobbed from the RAF early in 1947 after being sent to the Far East to help support Tiger Force in mid-1945. Basil, thank you for allowing me to interview you for the IBCC Digital Archives. Please tell me why and how you joined the RAF in 1942.
JG: I always had an interest in aeronautical. Even, yeah one of my regular magazines was Aeroplane which I wish I’d got these days. They’d be worth a fortune going back there. And I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to go and swim, I didn’t want to dig trenches so I thought the only way for me I’m going in the Air Force. So, I did it. I took a day off work, went to Manchester. Came in in the evening. Mum said, ‘Where have you been?’ I said, ‘I’m no longer — ’
GT: How old were you, Basil when you joined up?
JG: Well, I’d be seventeen.
GT: Did you have to have your mother’s written permission?
JG: She didn’t know until I came back [laughs] She was, she was not impressed.
GT: You didn’t have to show your birth certificate then.
JG: She was not impressed. No. So it was just a case of, I must be honest after I joined the RAF from being accepted I did get my call up papers for the Army and I wrote across it, “Accepted for the RAF,” sent it back and never heard anything else.
GT: Well, Basil from the age of fourteen you said that you were a motor mechanic. Was that your calling?
JG: Yeah.
GT: Was that your interest?
JG: I think it was more a case of my family saying, ‘You ought to do something useful.’ So, you know, that’s it so I spent quite a number of years doing that. So yeah, and other things. It was rather a strange apprenticeship because it was with the local authority and although they had vehicles they still had horses and carts [laughs]
GT: So your apprenticeship was specifically about —
JG: Well, cars and general engineering. Yeah. See that there? That is one of the, one of the old steam rollers that we used to have that, yeah —
GT: Basil is pointing to a horse effigy and it’s quite comical.
JG: Aveling-Barford. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Ok.
JG: Yeah.
GT: And that was in Derbyshire or Manchester?
JG: That was in Derbyshire. Yeah.
GT: Fabulous. So from —
JG: And —
GT: Yeah. Carry on.
JG: Ah, well no, I was going to say so I went in the RAF and when I came out, when I got demobbed I went back to my original employer doing the things I’d been trained to do.
GT: What about your training in the RAF? What did they give you?
JG: Well, after my initial, my initial training, basic training was carried out at Arbroath. Living in the old jute mills. That was a revelation. Yes. And then from there went to Blackpool, civvy billets because we were posted to Squires Gate, 3 SoTT where initially you did a flight mechanics course. Engines. Came out of that and I’m not quite sure. I think from there I went to Hendon and did my fitter’s course. From there posted to 75.
GT: Ok. So with your engine training what type of engines did they have you working on? The latest and greatest or was it [unclear] first?
JG: Oh, no. No. The crap [laughs] pardon me. One of, one of their prized possessions for the training school was a Blackburn Botha [laughs] dear oh dear, you know. And I think actually at the end of the course we started the engines up on that and there was no way it could fly. You know. They didn’t. So, no. General training would be on an inline engine. You would be specialising on carburation or ignition or that so you would take, and you would have to answer questions on the board when they’d finished to see whether you could get your grading coming off because you were either an AC, AC1 or an LAC coming off there, you see. And from there I can’t, there’s a blank. I can only think that I went to Henlow because that, that fixes in my mind. Did a, did a fitter’s course down there and then sent to 75 at Mepal.
GT: So when you joined your operational squadron was that the first time that you’d, you’d looked at, in this case you were working on at Stirlings? Yeah.
JG: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: So the first time on radial engines.
JG: Well, the, the old Botha had radial engines in, you see. So I forget what they had in. Whether they had [pause] what would they be? Perseus. The old Bristol engines. They weren’t much good. Yeah. No, the Stirlings. Yeah. That was an eye opener. There they are up there. You know, with all old radial engines, especially sleeve valve before you start them up you’ve got to turn the engine over to stop hydraulicing. If you don’t, I mean you see this more on the Americans. You see them on the, on the Fortresses or the Super Fortress and you see them getting on bringing the prop around. Yeah. The idea is to get rid of the oil out of the bottom cylinders because overnight they would do there and if you went in, pressed the button to start up you could actually blow a cylinder head off. Yeah. So, yeah. So and with the, with the Stirlings, imagine how light they are, you had a bloody great starting handle [laughs] to, you had to sort of get this in an orifice in the engine. Plug it in. And then you’d be two of you turning this round to get the props to turn round sufficient. Laughable. Oh dear.
GT: That was every time before engine start up.
JG: Yeah.
GT: When the crew was sitting in the aircraft waiting to go.
JG: Well, you do this prior to them sitting in there. You know, getting ready. Turn the engine so the crew could go in and say, ‘Righto, lads. Number one. Number two. Number three, and number four. Fire them up.’ Yeah.
GT: So when you worked on the aircraft did, did you help out the armourers or were you two separate?
JG: No. They were separate. Don’t want to know you. [laughs]
GT: So would they load the aircraft while you were still working on them or did they have to wait?
JG: No.
GT: Until you were finished.
JG: Yeah. They, they, whilst you were in the hangar the other trades would be working. I mean you might find the airframe people were changing a wheel because the tyre had changed. I don’t know whether you know. I mean little, when, because the wheels they are still on at present day are static virtually when it hits, you know.
GT: Oh yeah.
JG: I mean, yeah. So, the tyres were marked and they looked to see how far it had marked and they might have to change that and might have to change an oleo leg. And the armourers would be in the back perhaps changing something on a turret. The girls would be there doing the safety equipment. The dinghy, putting in new dinghies in or whatever was required.
GT: So, you mainly worked in the hangars not out on the airfield.
JG: I never worked outside. I was in, again fortunately or unfortunately I was allotted to what they called R&I, and R&I, I don’t know if it was repair and inspection or what it was. At any rate modifications. We were, we were always in the hangar. The flight boys, I never got to know the aircrews because all we got was their plane. Service it, engine change, prop changes, do what modifications, anything. Put it out on the dispersal, run it up and then they take it back on to the flight, you see.
GT: So was that part of 64 MU in Mepal? Were you separate or you were specifically on 75?
JG: 64 MU was separate. They, they used to do what we called category work. So if there was a, mostly that was air frame so if there was a sort of a main plane damage which couldn’t be done by the flights that would go over to, to 64 MU. Do that. They were separate. We sort of didn’t even associate, if you understand me.
GT: So they weren’t part of 75 Squadron but they were an integral part of keeping 75 aircraft flying.
JG: Yeah.
GT: Or did they have other aircraft come in from other Squadrons?
JG: I don’t remember others coming in. I don’t remember others coming in. There was, I think there was enough sort of flak damage and general damage on the Squadron for them to accommodate it.
GT: Yeah.
JG: You know.
GT: 75 Squadron codes were AA and JN so that’s the two main codes you kept seeing.
JG: JN C and AA. Yeah. Yeah. So, I only, you know, you know the layout of Mepal?
GT: Yeah. So, so do tell please. Describe the layout then if that helps. So from your —
JG: Well, I’ll just see. I should have a plan of it on here.
GT: So, at one end was —
JG: What you had, you had the, the main road coming up from Ely and there was a crossroad where Horse and Gate pub, the left side used to go to Haddenham down to Sutton and this one used to go around through Witchford to Mepal. So the village was down there. The main gate was on the Witchford, the Witchford Road so you had, you had the, a lot of the accommodation and servicing near the main road and then all the rest was the airfield. We had the first hangar as you got to the airfield. There were three. I think there were three hangars. We had one. There was one and there was another one over there. Yeah. A and B flights were always out in the open and everything that we did we were fortunately under cover. I mean, our hangar was big enough to take two Lancasters. You know, tail in one. Tail in the other. So that was it.
GT: Was your dispersal sealed or was it all grass? The surrounds of your hangar, was it, was it all sealed concrete or grass?
JG: The dispersals themselves where the aircraft parked they were concreted and the rest was all grass you see, so you had the, the dispersal pans that, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: How many aircraft in each dispersal?
JG: Well, I reckon you would have, as I say I think you would probably have eight per flight and then they would be grouped probably of two or three together in like in a pan. And you just dispersed here. Didn’t, unfortunately didn’t, as I say didn’t have anything to do with the flights. We were, we were always so busy. First thing in the morning there would either be a plane being towed in or it would be in there already for you and say, well you know the flight sergeant in charge of the hangar was Blondie Sadler. Great lad. And he’d just say, ‘Right, there you are.’ ‘Here you are.’ You, you know you’d be given the instruction so whichever engine you, you were working on, what it was, whether it was a seventy five hour, a multiple of, an engine change or a modification, or a prop change, you know would, would be done. And you would, you would just muck in. That was it. Simple.
GT: You, you were telling me about an incident where you’d fitted an engine and it went out on a, on a flight and you were, you were enjoying a swim at the time.
JG: Oh that. Yeah. We, we’d done, I forget what we had done but we had finished early. As this was a, a Lanc had come in with four different maintenance schedules. Four different hourly maintenance levels. So you might get a seventy five hour one, you might what’s, you might get a multiple of that which would be two hundred and, three, seven, twenty one.
GT: Fifty.
JG: Two eighty five. Or you might get a, you know, six hour one of that. So they were all, all different and occasionally if you’d fitted early and everybody was happy they didn’t want any assistance chiefy would say, ‘Righto lads. Well, you’ve signed up. You’re done. You can go.’ So a couple of us went down to the Three Pickerells. Got on our bikes, parked on the side of the canal there, got in the water and swimming about. Oh yeah. There she goes on air test. We saw her go over. When we got back, when we got back into the mess or the cookhouse whichever you like to call it they said, ‘Bloody hell, you’re in trouble mate.’ ‘Why? What’s the matter?’ ‘Well —’, so and so, I think it were U-Uncle, ‘Engine run away coming in, whipped it’s undercarriage off. She’s lying on the deck.’ You see. So that was it. That made the backside twitch a bit. So we sort of left what we were doing and went up to the hangar to find out whether we were guilty or not. Luckily we came away smiling. It wasn’t us [laughs] It wasn’t us. But some poor sod. I mean they, they were strict but within reasons. If they were running short with the, with people, if they were, you know and they wanted the plane out the idea was that whoever finished last on the maintenance system on a plane would have to see it out on to the dispersal. See if all the engines run up. If there were any snags you had to do the snag finding, you know. It might be just simple like crossed leads. You might get a one inch and you might get a bigger, a bigger mag drop, you know because what they do as you run them they run them at say at twelve hundred revs and they’ve, they’ve got a set of mags. They’ve got two mags. One feeds the exhaust side of the, and the, the other feeds the inlet side. Well, the exhaust side they go around the side so that you can’t knock them up. But on the inlet side they used to, the trunker used to go across the top of the trunking you see and they used to go off at an angle. And it was quite easy at times, especially on, on the end to get, to get the plugs crossed. You see. So you’d have to go on, you know go out, get things off, and get those so you know you used to do that and then of course you used to have to see it off on air test. When it came back see the pilot. ‘Any complaints?’ ‘No.’ ‘Sign the 700,’ and, and it was alright, you see. But now this normally was a senior NCO but if they were running short I mean chiefy would say, ‘Well, you’re bloody well trained,’ in his antipodean accent,
GT: Was he a New Zealander?
JG: Yeah. Well, he was New Zealand or Australian. I forget which he was. And he’d tell you to get out and do it. So you would go out there and run it up and do what was necessary. I mean they were fairly free, free souls. Perhaps one thing that you shouldn’t say but all ground crew were, had to do guard duty at some time or other and we had a wonderful engineering officer. I can’t remember his name and he was on guard. He was commander of the guard one night and it was getting towards the back end of the year and the first crews, the first eight or ten people went out on their guard and later on when, when things were getting a bit quiet he said, ‘Now, I want x number of you to go back to your billets and have a sleep, but —' he says, ‘If the officer of the guard comes around and wants to go around and inspect, the guards that are in bed but should be out on the guard —’ he said, ‘I want, I want that number of people to get outside quick.’ So, what it amounted to you’d perhaps have thirty blokes there, and there might be six sent back to the doings and after, after, after the it had gone dusk you see and, oh dear. I don’t know how we got away with it. Great people though, you know.
GT: So you perfected the engine changes pretty quick. How many fitters did it take to change a, well first off a Stirling engine and then a Lancaster engine? Any differences?
JG: My mind’s a little bit hazy on the Stirling but we could, we could do a Merlin change in a morning. In a morning. Definitely. It’s so simple. I mean once you, once you’d done it and you had a good mate. I mean it trollies around. Cowlings off. One of you would start disposing. One of you would go to the front and get the prop ready to get that off, you see. So, get everything loose. Once you’d got the prop you go back and help, help your mate to start then. No trouble. And if you could get handy with a cold strain, that was the beauty of it. Yeah. Yeah. You could get him [pause] Get the prop off on its stand. Engine in. Engine out. Engine in. Prop back on. Probably, oh what? Half an hour and then you’ve got to do all the, the refitting of all the pipework and everything. So, no trouble. No trouble. No trouble.
GT: And you were always signing the 700 for your work or job sheet or work sheet.
JG: Every, every job that you did you signed for. Generally speaking you had, it’s an old fashioned, a strip, a strip of paper. A strip of paper and on there would be every item that you would have to see to. So you signed that strip and that strip went back into the records and you signed where it had gone in the records in the office. And if you, if you did your first strip quickly and there was more to be done you could probably do two or three of these. They were like maintenance forms but in a strip. It was quite, you know, you got used to it actually. Got used to it. Yeah.
GT: The maintenance practices that you guys worked to they had independent inspections before you put cowlings on or covers on? Or was that just solely your responsibility?
JG: Once, once you’d taken the cowlings off and put the cowlings back on, taken outside. Run up. Right. And that was it. As I say when you was out after the last crew to finish would be the people who would do any rectification. But there was no, there was no senior officer inspection of the work you had done.
GT: Not even senior NCO.
JG: No. No. They did it. Yeah.
GT: You, in the last couple of years have visited the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and, and offered them some gold information there, Mr Goldstraw. Tell us a bit about talking with the engineers of today and how they’re looking after the BBMF Lancaster compared to how you did it.
JG: Well, it was quite interesting going up to Coningsby. I mean the tools we had to do the jobs that we had to do were what normally now the average gardener would have for his lawn mower [laughs] and whilst I was up, whilst I was up at Coningsby because, oh that’s interesting and this is something else they got two of the boys out of the car, the cave already.
[recording paused]
GT: Right. So Basil, what we were discussing was the differences between then and now. Basil, the BBMF Lancaster and its technicians compared to the technicians and fitters of your day. What, what was the differences that you found? And I understand you visited and chatted with these guys too.
JG: Well, the equipment. The equipment we were issued with as I say to compare what we had with what they now use for servicing was sort of the, the odd spanners that the average gardener would use for his lawn mower. I went up to Coningsby because they wanted information from ground crew as to what we did and how we did it and wonderful people up there but they had no idea of how we managed with the equipment that we had. And they actually fetched one of their, or actually fetched two of their toolboxes out to show me what they use and of course there were lovely, embedded in sort of plastic all shiny stainless steel spanners and everything, you know. Whereas we had to manage. You know. If you were taking a prop off and I used to do a lot of this work you, you had to use [laughs] you had to use what you were given with. And on the, on the big ring that locked the dome on to the, the prop we, we used to use the tow bar off the trestles as a hammer to get this tightened up because you couldn’t do it any other way. Ah dear oh dear. Just imagine that. Bloody great tow bar. Put it under your arm and you’re doing this. Yeah. Great fun. Great fun. But things change. Things change. Now, they, they although the engines are still the same they’ve got computer systems which identify any problem but that was a revelation to see the, the tool kits and listen to the, and for them to listen to us to how we did the job. Oh dear. Yeah. I got, I’ve got better tools in the garage than we had to do with. You had two or three spanners, a high faced hammer, a pair of pliers and a screwdriver. You wouldn’t believe it would you?
GT: Were those tools that you’d made yourself or they’d given you for servicing the engines?
JG: Oh, no. They, they were issued for servicing. That’s what you were issued with. A set of spanners. Not all the same make. A high faced hammer, a pair of pliers and a screwdriver. That was it.
GT: Today’s Royal Air Force is very hot on tool control because you leave a tool in behind a panel or in a cockpit and that aircraft goes flying it’s imminently in danger. What, was there any kind of tool control back in your time? In wartime.
JG: No. I mean, put it this way you didn’t dare lose a tool because you had to go and tell chiefy and get another one. So, no. No. No. No. I had the tools in my box from the day I was given them ‘til the day I left there. Yeah. Absolute crap. I actually was walking through [pause] where was I walking through? I was hitchhiking. I’m trying to think a minute. Not Lincoln. I was walking through Lincoln and I saw this shop and there was a set of Bedford chrome, chrome vanadium spanners in the window and I went in and bought those. I paid, I think I paid twenty five shillings for them and I’ve still got some of them now.
GT: In 1944 you did this.
JG: That. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so they became part of my toolbox but I hung on to them at any rate. So —
GT: And no one else knew what tools you had and you didn’t compare tools with other technicians or fitters.
JG: Oh no. No. No. No. No.
GT: You guarded your tool bag.
JG: Well, I’ll tell you what. If you changed the starter motor [pause] if you changed a starter motor what you wanted was a sort of box spanner with the universal joint on it [unclear] So the only thing you could get, somebody on the Squadron did and got a T spanner with a sort of five sixteenth box spanner, a short one on the end of it and you could try and hold the bloody starter up and get this nuts on. Oh dear. Tools. One of the, one of the other jobs which you could have. Are we still on? Oh, I see. Yeah. Was Lancasters were prone, Merlins were prone to lose their exhaust stubs. And it’s, it’s sod’s law that if the studs, if they, if they fell off not only could they damage the tail plane, you know, the [unclear] but the studs would break in the block at an angle. Right. And we had, well I once said, ‘If chiefy gives me another one of them I’ll go absent,’ because you were working at a slight angle you see that the block is. We’d only got air drills which were, we’d nothing else. The actual drill bits were poor so you had to try and get, I mean if, if it slanted, if it’s below if they were broke off and you got a bit you could get a pair of pliers on or something like that you might be able to hook them out but nine times out of ten there would be a broken in, in the block and they would be broken at an angle. Now, you try and get a drill to go in at an angle to try and then get it, get the drill to bite so that you could go in straight because if you made a mess of it you could find that you were getting a right old rollicking because you might have disturbed the cooling system. You know, one of the [pause] so you had to be very careful. It was a piggish job. You succeeded by trial and error. A lot of swearing. A lot of time, you see. And you could do it but you had a, what they called a Trepanning tool which you could put over the undamaged studs of the next two mountings which would give you an idea. But a waste of time. It was all virtually trial and error to get, to get them in and get the studs, studs out.
GT: The product today we use is easy out.
JG: Oh. Easy out. Yeah. Electric drills. You could put them there and you know there were so many ways that if it’s at an angle if it’s broken, if it’s broken off at an angle where you could grind that with the, you know modern equipment to get it right. Spot on. And then get inside. That was a lousy job as I say. Yeah. Yeah. I said give me one more of these and I’m going AWL OL. I think I’ve got that written down somewhere. But you never did it because you know, you know you had to do it. Yeah.
GT: You were working in the hangars, you just explained to me, most if not all of the time.
JG: Yeah.
GT: Were you in contact to know that the Squadron had lost aircraft each night?
JG: Not necessarily. You might, it might filter back to you that you had, you know that they lost two or three aircraft or somebody might say well so and so didn’t come back. Something like that. You used to see the damage sometimes that the, you know holes in the main plane that would be brought in for the fitters to do, you know. Tanks damaged so they’d have to take the panels off, take the tanks out.
GT: Yeah. It was one night in July ’44 that they lost seven aircraft in one night. So that was, that was pretty horrific for the Squadron’s morale as well.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the people who would notice that would be the lads out on the flights. They would, you know because then they would be waiting for replacement aircraft coming in. And they’d have —
GT: So that meant there was two specific separate components to the maintenance teams. Ones on the flight line and doing the flight line work and you guys in the hangar. No, there’s a third. Then there’s you guys. Intermediate. And then you’ve got the MU on the other side doing the deep level stuff. So there’s the three breakdowns.
JG: Yeah. It was. I’m not sure about how far 64 came in on this. Never had, I never had a lot to do with them but yes from the point of view of 75 you had the guys on the flights who attended to them. You’d have, I mean on the flights you might have for each aircraft or for a group of you might have a couple of flight mechanics, air frames, you might have a couple of fitter’s engines. There might be flight mechanics. You might have an electrician, armourer. You might have a couple of air frame mechanics just to keep, keep those planes up there. And anything major, modifications, anything major used to be pulled in to the hangar. We were never short of work. I can tell you that. No.
GT: Now, you mentioned that Mepal had several night intruders come and attack the airfield. What happened on those occasions?
JG: Well, the first time, the first time he came in they scattered anti-personnel bombs all over the place so again until the, until the armoury people had been in that was dead. At that particular time we had no air defence so there was a big panic on. Quite a number of the ground crews were sent to Waterbeach to learn how to use the twin Brownings on the stalk mounting and we actually had two of those sets on the, on the airfield for future use. But when you were on duty with them at night you were not allowed to open fire until, unless you got orders from headquarters. So by the time you’d seen him and got the orders old Jerry was on his way back home.
GT: Did you actually see the German aircraft itself? Did you know what it was that dropped the —
JG: It was a JU88. Yeah. A JU88 that night. Yeah.
GT: Bombing. No strafing.
JG: Just came down, just opened the bomb doors and gone. Must have followed them in you see or I say followed them in he probably actually knew where we were from the, from the old landing lights that were still there you see because I don’t think they did, I don’t think he did any particular damage. No.
GT: Some of the aircrew have said to me that they had their navigation lights on but once they started being followed the practice was to switch them off.
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: And 115 Squadron at Witchford had several shot down as they were coming in to land by Messerschmitt 410s.
JG: Yeah.
GT: And that’s been well documented so with Witchford and Mepal being in the same orbit.
JG: Well, yeah. That’s strange actually. They seemed to get more problems than we did. I only remember that one in particular and there might have been one other instance where he just, what shall I say? Flew over and didn’t do any damage. But not being a night bird it was just that I actually was one of the people that like many others who got sent down to Waterbeach to know how to operate the [pause] there and I was on one night. Not when we got an intruder but I knew what the instructions were. Don’t fire.
GT: So you had several stand too’s yourself with the gun.
JG: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was it. So, that was it.
GT: Did you live on base during your time at Mepal?
JG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a good crew actually. Yeah.
GT: Because you were eighteen or nineteen years old at that time, weren’t you?
JG: Oh yeah. Full, full [laughs] full of the joys of spring.
GT: And did you go down to the pubs much? Not that you were allowed to were you but —
JG: Well, yeah they, no as long as you were there, again it didn’t matter what you did at night as long as you were there in the morning. As long as you were there. I mean I, yeah we used to, we used to go down to the Chequers. Dinner on camp on a Sunday was rubbish so perhaps on a Saturday night we’d say to the barman, ‘Can we have sandwiches tomorrow?’ And he’d, he’d knock up sandwiches. So we would go down to Chequers and have a pint of beer and sandwiches and then go back for the afternoon session until we finished. But I mean I must admit I, before I met my wife I had a girlfriend. And my girlfriend lived away. And her mother thought I was the best thing since sliced bread and sliced bread hadn’t been thought of in those days. So, the father didn’t take much to me. His daughter. You can imagine that. Oh yeah. That’s not for publication.
GT: Did you sneak her on, on to camp? Did you seek her on to the station?
JG: No. I didn’t. No. I sneaked off. I rode my bike. Oh dear. I, I actually she pushed me and pushed me. She wanted to marry me. And I said no. No. No, because her mother thought, yeah. ‘Are you coming to dinner on the weekend? Are you off by any chance?’ Yeah. Oh dear.
GT: So what, your shift work was it just the normal 8 ‘til 5 work? How did they organise it for your servicing? Did they go all twenty four hour servicing?
JG: Eight. 8 ‘til 5, 6 o’clock. If the plane was wanted you would work ‘til the finish. Occasionally you would work all night. I’ve done that. Started in one. Started in our hangar and then moved to where there was another hangar up on [pause] I don’t know what flight that was and they were, they were stuck up there. We were finished so we were sent up there and we went out, came back after we’d had a meal. Worked all night until the next morning, I know that night I’d, I’d finished and I put a prop on that had been repaired and when we ran it up the bloody thing vibrated. So I had to take it off again and put another. It hadn’t been balanced right. So this happened occasionally. A bit of swearing. Get on with the bloody job. Yeah.
GT: So you must have still had blackout as a huge issue or problem so how could you blackout a hangar? Was it easy to keep the light from getting out or were you diligent —
JG: Well, I, generally speaking I can’t remember that I ever worked in the dark in the hangar so that would, I never think about that. I mean you used to go there and do your work and go home. This particular night there was a maximum effort one that we had to do. Well, we were working outside. I forgot even what the lights were, you know. I know that I was very much engaged doing this bloody exhaust stub replacement. So that taxed you. Yeah.
GT: So you mentioned maximum effort and that is also the title of a small movie made on 75.
JG: Well, if you had twenty six planes normally you would not have a maximum effort. You might send out, you know eighteen or twenty or just twelve but as, as they got in to Normandy — maximum effort. They wanted every plane that was flyable. So, you know if it was a case of well this was in, ‘Well, get it ready. We want it for tomorrow morning,’ you know. Occasionally you would find there would be one plane that would be waiting for spares and that would be parked up at the far end near the bomb dump. And if you wanted a part that you were short of and stores hadn’t you used to go and put a robbing chit on that so that, you know you could take off what you wanted, you know. But apart from that maximum effort meant maximum effort. Every plane available must go.
GT: Did you get to see your commanding officer much of the Squadron?
JG: Can’t think of. Can’t think of. No. No. I can’t. It was a case of line up in the morning, roll call then get on with your work, you know. Fairly, fairly flexible. Yeah.
GT: Was there an airman’s bar on the airfield or was it just the senior NCOs and junior NCOs bar?
JG: Well, the only place you had on the bar for, for the, the sergeants had a mess but any beyond that, they just had the NAAFI. The cookhouse and the NAAFI. And I can’t remember drinks being available in the NAAFI. Used to go down to Sutton to the Chequers if you wanted to drink. I used to drink elsewhere.
GT: In later years the Chequers had a lot of photographs up on the walls which I’ve visited several times. When you were there did they have anything up on the walls that related to the Squadron or was it all pretty bare?
JG: No. I mean if you were to, if you’d have gone in to the Chequers, let me think [pause] I went in to the, I said to the wife, ‘I’ll take you down there. I want to show you where I was.’ Now, I’ll tell you what. In 1968 I came down here and going back home one day I said to the wife, I said, ‘We’ll go back a different way. We’ll go back through Cambridgeshire and Mepal.’ And we went into the Chequers for a meal and a drink. And I was looking at some of the photos, they’re not there now of the Squadron and I was looking at one particular one and one of the locals came up to me and said, ‘No good you looking on there, young man.’ I said, ‘Oh really?’ ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘You’re too young to —’ you know, because I’ve always been, I’ve never looked my age, if you, I mean they tell me now. And I said, ‘Oh really?’ I said, ‘Well, just as a matter of fact,’ I said, ‘Do you see that bloke there?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘Well, that was me.’ [laughs] He went away with his tail between his legs. Yeah. But if you go in the Chequers now it’s under new ownership and they’ve taken all the good ones away. All the good photographs that they had have gone.
GT: Now, there was also not only German intruders but there was Americans that visited Mepal, you were telling me. Aircraft would come in from their day’s sorties and you’d be —
JG: Oh yeah. That used to be exciting because when they were coming back from a bombing raid they were only, their interest if they were in trouble was forget about the red flag, the red signals.
GT: Flare.
JG: The verey lights going up saying stop, you’re not coming in. They said we’re coming in. And it was quite interesting. We had two. One, one was the Fortress and our blokes were coming in and they were firing verey lights up. Stop. Stop. Stop. You know. Don’t come in. He ignored it. He came in and glided down. Landed up. And there was a Liberator did the same, Oh yeah. Yeah. I’m getting down on to mother earth. That was very interesting. But no accident. The rest of the crews. Our blokes used to fly back in what we called a gaggle anyway you see and they’d be, and all of a sudden this Yank would come through the [laughs ] Make way. I’m first. Yeah.
GT: Well, the Americans didn’t carry navigators. Only one aircraft per flight did they carry navigators so many of them perhaps just saw an airfield and said —
JG: They saw an airfield and they were in trouble that’s where I’m going.
GT: That’s where the British bombers had the best. They had a navigator for each aircraft wasn’t it? That was the best way of looking at that.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. Oh no.
GT: What, what was one of the best times you kind of remember from Mepal if there was one?
JG: I don’t think there was a best time. I must admit this, considering it was wartime I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the people I was with. I enjoyed what I was doing. And I enjoyed the girls, you know.
GT: Nineteen years old.
JG: You see we had, we had the, a small musical group. They were called the oh [pause] the 75ers I think they called them and they used to play. There was Johnny Kimber he used to play sax. There was Len Mitchell. Len Mitchell, I forget what he played. There was Arthur Swift played the fiddle. There was a drummer. I can’t remember his name. Well, Arthur Swift, Johnny Kimber and Les Mitchell they actually were members of the billet I shared so I got on with them and yeah, they used to play in Chatteris, to the dance on a Friday or Saturday night if they were free and this is where we used to land up for a dance, oh yeah. Good. Yeah. I enjoyed it. I can’t think really that I, there’s any place, any point in my time at Mepal where I didn’t enjoy it. You know.
GT: You knew that this war had a lot at stake of your guys to make sure you won.
JG: Oh yeah.
GT: Even at nineteen. Yeah.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I accepted that I wasn’t going to become aircrew because of having to go in there so you just make the best of it.
GT: Yeah. If you don’t mind can we briefly touch on why you volunteered for aircrew but they grounded you. So could you expand on that please?
JG: Well, what, what had happened with me I’d always, I’d always had a problem bleeding and it never bothered me but the local dental officer on the Squadron was a bit over ambitious trying to fill a tooth and he, he broke a tooth and I know I said, ‘Oh, I’m in bloody trouble now.’ And he said, ‘Well, it’s got to come out.’ Well, he took it out and couldn’t stop the bleeding and he sent me home on a forty eight hour pass or a thirty six and when I got home I went into the Army place that was in Buxton to see the medical there and they tried to stop it and gave me an extra day and I went back, reported to the sick quarters again. They let it get infected and I landed up in the RAF hospital and it was, they managed to get rid of the infection, they stopped the bleeding and all that happened after that was my grade wasn’t, my medical grade was not reduced. They didn’t say what the problem is but they said, ‘You’re grounded. You’re not going to fly.’ And it wasn’t until 1950, early 50s when I took it on myself because I’d got a problem to go to the doctor and said, ‘Can we sort this out?’ So did that and I landed up with a card which says I am a carrier of haemophilia. So, yeah.
GT: So you find out that around about early 1943 when you were aiming for aircrew and suddenly no. You’re not doing it and you were, you were staying as, as ground crew.
JG: That’s right. Yeah.
GT: And you contribute that may have saved your life.
JG: Eh?
GT: You contribute that that may have saved your life.
JG: Well, it’s ironical isn’t it something that could kill you almost saves your life? You know. I mean the point is that if you like saying this if I was away and sort of fell off a cliff and bled to death nobody could have, I would have, I would have just bled to death you see because I’m bleeding and I mean that has [pause] switch if off.
[recording paused]
GT: Right. Now, Basil we were moving on through to the end of ’44 and in Europe there was a devastating winter but Mepal was not affected much. No. So —
JG: No. I can’t really remember being snowed in or anything like that. I don’t know whether we were. No. I mean everything went on as normal until towards the end of ’45 when —
GT: The end of ’44 because the war was finishing by around about April ’45. Because you were then chosen for Tiger Force you were telling me.
JG: Yeah. Well, I was just going to say.
GT: Yeah.
JG: 75 disbanded. Went to Spilsby. They went to Spilsby for home leave and then to be part of Tiger Force because the Japanese were still fighting and there was a collection of people. I was one of them who was sent abroad to become part of Tiger Force ground crew for the Lancaster or the —
GT: Lincoln.
JG: The Lincoln. But in actual fact, by the time we got out there the war had finished so it was a case of being left there until your demob number came up where you were then sent home.
GT: How did you get out to Singapore or the Far East as it was known then?
JG: They flew us out. They flew us out from Swindon area. They flew us out. First, first trip out was to Malta. We spent a night in Malta. Then the following day we went to Habbaniya in northern Iraq. The following day I think we went to Karachi. The following day I may be, I may be out of, I may be out a couple of days actually. And then we landed at Calcutta and at that particular time we were some of us were transferred to a transit camp at Ballygunge waiting to go down into Malaysia and so forth. You know. By that time as I say the war had finished. VJ I think had come and gone so we were in sort of [pause] what shall I say? We were in no man’s land. You know. We were just being handed on, handed on. From there down to Mingaladon, Rangoon, Butterworth and one other place. Seletar. Changi. The other one you have to forget about.
GT: Tengah.
JG: Tengah, and then we got on the boat to come back to England, Southampton. And —
GT: Now, what was that boat’s name?
JG: The Johan van Oldenbarnevelt [laughs] Should have been sunk at birth.
GT: Do say that name again. That sounds so good. Do say that name again.
JG: The Johan van Oldenbarnevelt. One of the Dutch liners in small letters which actually became a cruise boat and sometime in the early 50s caught fire. She became the Laconia. That’s right. She became the, she was renamed the Laconia and she was a cruise boat and she caught fire in the Mediterranean.
GT: It got you home safe. Now, during your time in the Far East as it was then you didn’t service engines. Because that’s what you were sent out there to do.
JG: No. No. No. No. Anything but. Anything but —
GT: Was that a disappointing end to your war?
JG: Oh yeah. That was, that was stupid. I mean, I spent, yeah I spent hours in a plug bay testing plugs, cleaning plugs, checking the bloody insulation and the lads who were on the flying boats at Seletar used to [laughs] loads of these plugs in, ‘They want testing, mate.’ So you’d take another set out. Absolute waste of time. Yeah. Absolute waste of time.
GT: Although, you did see VE Day in England but then were shipped out after it didn’t you?
JG: Oh yeah. It was just a case of then right the way probably certainly after Mingaladon.
GT: Yeah.
JG: We were just sort of saying, ‘Righto. Well, what’s our number? When’s it coming up? When can we go home?’
GT: So, you managed to get home about end of ’46 early ’47 then.
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: You stayed out there that long.
JG: Yeah. That was a lot. Yeah.
GT: That was enough. So, what, what did you work on then once you were demobbed. In civilian life again.
JG: Oh, vehicles of any description. Steam rollers. Anything that was mechanical and I did that. Yeah. I had a very interesting civilian life. Very interesting.
GT: So you had a job with the local authorities.
JG: Yeah.
GT: Boroughs.
JG: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And what were you doing for them?
JG: Before I came down here? Oh, well maintenance of any of the sewerage works or water works equipment. The vehicles. The machines that they used. You know. There was always something and [pause] yeah.
GT: And in 1947 you met Muriel.
JG: Well, I met Muriel before ’47. But yeah.
GT: You married her in ’47.
JG: Yeah. I met her in, I met her the first time in 1942 but nothing came of it and it was, it’s even now I don’t know how we got together again. No.
GT: But you had many years of great marriage.
JG: But [pause] yeah.
GT: And sadly Muriel died in 2008 but you have had a son and a daughter.
JG: Yeah. A son and daughter. A granddaughter. Two great grandchildren.
GT: Fabulous. Your son Ian who is now fifty six and daughter Susan sixty seven.
JG: Ah she’s sixty seven.
GT: Brilliant.
JG: Yeah.
GT: And a lovely granddaughter Louise looks after you too.
JG: She’s about, she’s about I think she’s forty and the two grandchildren are fourteen and sixteen.
GT: And you’re, I’m speaking with you now in your lovely house here at Haywards Heath so and it’s very kind of you to allow me to visit you yet again. I’ve visited you several years in a row now.
JG: Welcome to see you.
GT: It’s fabulous to chat with you. So after you did some obviously illustrious work for different boroughs and counties you retired in 1986. What did you retire to? Badminton. Squash.
JG: Well, actually when I, when I retired the first time because of being involved and I had to go back to work for twelve, for eighteen, no twelve months. I had a month off and then went back to work and did, and did any work. Any work I could find part time, and ’86 [pause] Let me think. ‘86. Yeah. How old would I have been in ‘86? I can’t even bloody [pause] yeah.
GT: Sixty.
JG: What?
GT: Sixty one. You’d be sixty one.
JG: Sixty one.
GT: So you, you became a road transport engineer before that too didn’t you?
JG: Yeah.
GT: So, yeah —
JG: Yeah. I’d got my transport manager’s licence and I was a member of the Institute of Road Transport Engineers and a member of something else. IMI, you know so —
GT: It must have been a very satisfying job building the local roads and keeping them going. Was it?
JG: I’ve got to say this. It was a more satisfying job with the people I was with before I came down here because local government changed. In 1974 local government changed completely. I mean, whereas we had been responsible before I came down here we were a borough and we were responsible for our own sewerage and waterworks and our old roads everything. I came down here, a slightly different environment and then in ‘74 the local government changed and the water authorities came in and all the rest of them and roads went back to the County. Sewerage went to the Water Authority. The water, that was strange. What was the other one? There used to be, where the effluent used to go in to the river from the sewerage works the water bailiffs used to come up and they used to check the water to see if we were polluting the river which after 1974 the Water Authority took over the sewerage works so they became their own mentors. Right. So one never knew. I mean if you listen to the radio now we’re polluting the streams these days which are under the authority of the Water Authority. We’re polluting them more than we did when it was run by the local authorities and you had the water bailiffs checking on your pollution problems. So, yeah [pause] Yeah.
GT: So, Basil you’ve been a long time member of the Bomber Command Association and the Royal Air Force Association.
JG: Yeah.
GT: You have therefore been to many dinners and meetings or trips away.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. I usually join in with the Christmas dinner at the local RAFA Club and I get the occasional call out as a wartime serving person to join in with the functions at Coningsby or wherever it is, and quite enjoy that. And of course we have the Association AGM every year which I’ve now got myself into at St Ives. So, yeah. I still get, I still get calls.
GT: Well, I know the UK 75 Squadron Association friends of are very pleased to have you amongst their —
JG: Yeah.
GT: Many members now. And I know you’ve laid wreaths for and on behalf of the Association at several recent events.
JG: Well —
GT: Been fantastic. You’re wearing one of my Squadron ties in many of the pictures I see so it’s fabulous and of course your Squadron badge on your jacket.
JG: Yeah. Have you seen my Squadron badge on my car?
GT: Brilliant. You see. So, its brilliant that you’re a 75 Association chappie and me from New Zealand. You from the UK. Love it and that’s just fabulous. Now, also sports wise and you are now ninety —
JG: Three.
GT: Ninety three and you’ve been still playing —
JG: Up to Christmas I was still playing badminton three times a week. Bowls in the season. Enjoying life. Living. Living the good life. Without a wife.
GT: And it’s marvellous you’ve got your own iPad. You’ve had that five years. You’re on the internet. You’re a very internet savvy man and it’s great to be able to keep up contact with you as I do with you from New Zealand. So —
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Its fabulous, Basil.
JG: Yeah.
GT: Basil, do you look at the service you did to know that the bombing arena of Bomber Command and how they achieved a huge amount of shortening the war against Adolf Hitler. Do you consider they could have done it any other way?
JG: I think they missed opportunities. I think when they went, when they burst the dam, bust the dams they should have gone back and bombed them to stop the rebuilding and they never went back. That was, I think that was a big mistake. I’ve no time for these people who say Dresden was wrong. We’ve all got hindsight. We’re all blessed with hindsight. Bomber Command had a job to do. Unfortunately, Harris takes the blame but he was on instructions from higher authority. We were not the only people who went in to Dresden. I mean we went in to Dresden but the Americans went in two or three times after we’d started it and we went back. Yes. I think we, I think actually we missed out. During the Battle Of Britain we were still throwing .303 bullets at Messerschmitts and they were throwing cannons. If we’d have had .5s or cannon we would have done much better. And it was known. It was known in 1939 that the Spitfire and the Hurricane were [pause] what shall I say? Under armoured. And I don’t know whether you know a very interesting fact that I on the, on the Germany was more [unclear] Germany was far in advance of us on radar. But they used it differently. You know. They were. Their gunnery was absolutely fantastic. Radar controlled. Yeah. Yeah. Ack ack the same. Searchlights the same. We used radar different to them. It’s quite interesting. If you go on to the iPad there’s quite a lot of information on there about German radar. No.
GT: Well, Basil we have covered a good deal of your career, your life, your experiences. I’m certain that the International Bomber Command Centre, the IBCC is going to be very interested in your story and your life. I think we should call it quits now and sign off and thank you very much for chatting with me today and I, I certainly am impressed. I certainly love your story and I’m very honoured to be able to record —
JG: No. No. It’s —
GT: Your history today.
JG: We did, you know I’ve said this before. It’s switched off.
[recording paused]
GT: Go.
JG: Well, you’ve got the fitters.
GT: Yeah. So this is fifteen disciplines.
JG: Fifteen different disciplines. Yeah. You’ve got the air frame people. You’ve got the electricians. The radio mechanics. You’ve got the armourers. You’ve got the safety equipment the WAAFs, the buoyancy. You’ve got the refuellers.
GT: Parachutes.
JG: Refuellers. You’ve then got the airfield control people. You’ve got the cooks. They’re all there. They can’t do without them. You’ve got the medical services. You know. So, I mean what’s that? That’s ten is it? And I could think but the administrators. You need them. There’s so much paperwork. So, I don’t know. I, I could think of painters and other, and other I mean it sounds silly but they’re all there. The storekeepers. The bloke who brings the NAAFI people. All these are different disciplines that go to allowing you the finished article. You know. I will say this. I, a big, a big bone of contention of mine when Doolittle took the bombers to Japan off the carriers eighty crewmen all got a minimum of a medal. All eighty people got a medal. Some of them got higher medals but everybody. The Dambusters. Thirty five medals were given out. Every man who went out there should have had a medal because nobody could, nobody could do on their own what the crew did together, you know. Guy Gibson, for all whatever he was couldn’t have got there without his navigator, couldn’t have got there without his radio operator and probably couldn’t have got down there without his gunners as a protection. So why do you pick one person out for a medal? I was rather aggrieved last year. Johnny Johnson is the last of the Dambusters. He got a medal. Nothing against Johnny Johnson but there was, what was her name? There was a woman. She used to do Countdown. Do you know her name? She got involved. Wanted him to be made a sir or mentioned in the, you know and I said what you should do, forget about, Johnny got his medal, what about using the word getting the medal for all those people who got nothing. Even though they’ve retrospectively they should have all had a medal. Even if, even if they were nowhere and they weren’t alive the family would have appreciated that and it’s something that I feel very strongly about. That they didn’t, you know. Yeah. So, yeah. You know. No man is an island.
GT: The campaign medal for the Bomber Command people has been a strong tidal wave of support for many years and they should, yeah. And it should. Well, I’ll tell you what then Basil it’s something that the medal should have been struck and given to all the Bomber Command people and that’s what hasn’t been done and it’s still ongoing. The fight is still ongoing for it.
JG: A friend of mine he spent a tour on, he was a navigator and he flew a Wellington from England and navigated it all the way out to Egypt. The tragedy is I had his actual log, handwritten log that he had done. He was very precise. He spent a full tour out with the Wellingtons if you like on Bomber Command out from, in the Aden area.
GT: Mediterranean.
JG: He doesn’t get a Bomber Command —
GT: No. No. It’s he gets the Africa Star and the Italy Star is all the Mediterranean Command so —
JG: He doesn’t get anything. But Oliver, Oliver is about four years older than me. I still speak to him. He used to be in the office at work before I moved down here, and they actually forced a U-boat to the surface and it ran aground to save itself. Yeah. I don’t know what Squadron. 108 Squadron something like that flying there but he was a top, top class navigator. And he just gets I don’t know what he gets as a medal, you know.
GT: Yeah.
JG: But yeah.
GT: It is something that should be acknowledged and unfortunately the decision was made in the 1950s and they’ve stuck with it but I am very proud to visit and see and talk with many of the airmen.
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: You are one of the few groundees about and it’s been such a pleasure to chat with you and listen to what you experienced.
JG: Is that off or on?
GT: It’s on. So, so from my point of view now Basil, I think we should complete our interview and then sit and have a cup of tea.
JG: Yeah. Good idea.
GT: But it has been such a pleasure discussing this with you and I thank you.
JG: Yeah.
GT: I thank you much.
JG: Thanks for coming. Yeah.
GT: Any last word you’d like to say?
JG: No. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed my, I enjoyed my RAF career. I enjoy, I enjoy being involved with it now. I think it was a tragedy when they stopped conscription. It should be brought back because nobody, nobody has respect for anything these days. No. It’s always Tom, Dick and Harry. Anyway, I’m pleased to have done what I’ve done.
GT: Thank you. Thank you, Basil.
JG: Let’s have a cup of tea.
GT: Let’s have a cup of tea. Thanks Basil. I’ll package this up for the IBCC and they’ll be —
JG: They’ll probably think some of that’s a load of bloody rubbish, you know.
GT: No way. Thanks Basil. Ok. Good afternoon.
JG: Yeah.
GT: Goodbye.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Basil Goldstraw
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoldstrawBJ180708
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:21:38 audio recording
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Basil Goldstraw was born in Buxton, Derbyshire. He joined the RAF at the age of seventeen to do a motor mechanics apprenticeship. He wanted to join aircrew but was grounded due to a medical condition. After training at Number 3 School of Technical Training he was posted to 75 New Zealand Squadron as an engine fitter and worked on Stirlings. On one occasion he remembers a Ju 88 aircraft that attacked the aerodrome dropping anti-personnel bombs. When 75 Squadron disbanded he was posted to RAF Spilsby to join Tiger Force in the Far East. He flew to Singapore via Malta and Iraq. On completion of his tour he returned to the UK and was demobbed from the RAF.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
75 Squadron
Botha
ground crew
ground personnel
Ju 88
RAF Mepal
RAF Spilsby
Stirling
Tiger force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/821/10805/PFisherT1701.2.jpg
ab966b75919cc81ba9cf72d7ae808da1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/821/10805/AFisherT170726.1.mp3
14a8d63f6e971f8062c9b1885ae60417
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fisher, Thomas
T Fisher
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Thomas Fisher (1922 - 2020, 1097527 Royal Air Force). He trained as a bomb aimer / navigator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Fisher, T
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GT: Ok. This is a official interview of Mr Thomas Fisher and we are just outside of Dumfries in Scotland and it is the 26th of July 2017. Your interviewer is Glen Turner from the 75 Squadron Association and accredited IBCC interviewer, and also present is Thomas Fisher’s daughter Julia McLennan and a traveling friend here of Glen’s, Diana Harrington from Middlesborough. So, Thomas, can you give us, your opening piece of information would be where you were born, your date of birth and where you grew up, please.
TF: Yes. I was, I was born on December the 7th 1922 in Sunderland and I grew up in that, in that town.
GT: And where did you go to school?
TF: In Sunderland.
GT: And did you complete High School or —
TF: I, well, I [laughs] I passed the 11 Plus to go to Grammar School which I did do but unfortunately, I, my parents said I had to leave school when I was fourteen which was rather a bit of a blow because, and a surprise because my father had already signed a form to say I would stay until I was at least sixteen. But they sort of said they needed the money and so I left school and got a, got a job. I worked in an office for a while and then I became an apprentice painter and decorator. I worked at that until I was, until I was eighteen and that was when I decided that I would join the Air Force.
GT: Had the war been going long at that time or did you join before the war?
TF: No. The war had been on since the end of ’39. End of ’40. It would have been going on for a bit over a year during which time we’d have been, it had just been a series of disasters. You know, the Dunkirk evacuation and lots of bombing. I must admit I was getting a bit fed up with hearing the siren going at 3 o’clock or so in the morning and expected to get up and go to an air raid shelter. But, but fortunately that was the only time that I was subjected to bombing was before I joined the Air Force. I was much safer when I was in the Air Force [laughs] I was never at an airfield that was attacked at all and, and well to be quite frank I had one horrible time when I picked up the local newspaper and the corner was folded over of the heading and I could just see the letters “tain” said, “We must surrender.” And I took that as Britain says we must surrender. I was absolutely horrified at the thought. I just stood and stared at that for a bit and then I bent down and picked it up and the corner flipped over back. And it wasn’t Britain. It was Pétain, the French Prime Minister. And that was, I think that was one of the times that I sort of definitely thought the Air Force seems to be the only thing that’s doing anything at the moment so, and also I’m getting a bit fed up with them coming over and dropping bombs on us so we might as well go and do the same to them.
GT: So, you were seventeen years old at that time.
TF: At that time. Ah huh.
GT: And you mentioned that yourself and was it your family that were involved with German raids over Sunderland?
TF: Yes.
GT: And were you attacked, did the Germans manage to bomb your area? Your street, or house?
TF: They actually did later, at a later date when I was in the Air Force they did actually bomb the house.
GT: Did you lose any family from that?
TF: I, I got, I was stationed in the Air Force at Inverness and I got a message to go and see the adjutant and when I did he said, ‘I’ve got some bad news. Your house has been bombed. But there’s no, no one’s been hurt.’ So that was alright and they were very good. They immediately gave me a railway warrant and sent me on leave to see if I could do anything to help.
GT: Ok. So, let’s then just go back slightly to your reasons for joining the Royal Air Force and and how you managed to achieve that for me please.
TF: Well, the reason. Yes.
[telephone ringing]
TF: I would say the reason was —
GT: Ok. Hang on. I’ll tell you what. We’ll just pause that.
[recording paused]
[clock chiming]
GT: Ok, Thomas. Can, can you please tell me why you joined the Royal Air Force and when and how?
TF: Yes. Well, I joined in nineteen, at the beginning of 1941. And the reason why was I got a bit fed up with getting bombed by German planes coming over in horrible times. Middle of the night getting it Not that I expected I was going to make any difference but I just felt I would like to do something to make up for all the bombing that was going on and so I visited a recruiting office and said, ‘I’ve joined the Air Force.’
GT: So you were saying that you lived or grew up in Sunderland but there was no recruiting office there. You had to go somewhere else.
TF: No. No recruiting office.
GT: Where was the recruiting office that you went to then?
TF: It was at Newcastle on Tyne which was about twelve mile away. But, and so I went through there and joined the Air Force and, and I think I was put on what they called deferred service for about two months and then eventually went down to Blackpool where we got kitted out. Well, it was rather pleasant in a way because it wasn’t an Air Force station as such. We just lived in hotels. There’s hundreds of small hotels in Blackpool and there would probably be about six of us because they were nearly all geared up with double beds you see and of course we all had one each. So if they had six rooms it normally meant there would be twelve people staying but there was only six of us sort of like. We got good meals and then went out and got our uniforms and got kitted up with a whole pile of stuff. We were all given a kit bag and moved along a line and someone would say, What size shoes do you take?’ ‘What size shirt do you, what’s your collar size?’ And such like and you’d just keep dropping things in and we took, with laden kit bags went back to our hotel and were told to pay after, after lunch with our uniform on. And, and someone came and checked over to see if everybody fitted reasonably well and then we started doing basic training with a lot of PT and marching along the promenade, running around the sands like a lot of lunatics with rifles and bayonets. And, and then in the fullness of time we, I was there about a month and then went down to Number 4 School of Technical Training.
GT: Now, Thomas, now Thomas earlier you were telling me when you initially went to the Recruiting Office what they recruiter did to give you your future job. Can you, can you tell me that again please? What happened when you went to the Recruiting Office.
TF: Well, when I offered to be a flight mechanic he said, ‘Not so fast. We’ll have to see if you’re suitable for training.’ And, and then started to give me what I’d say with good grace here was a bit of mental arithmetic. Just wanted to know whether I could add up and I wasn’t completely illiterate and, and then and said I was quite suitable for training. So that’s why I ended up at Number 4 School of Technical Training at St Athan in South Wales.
GT: And how long were you there for and what did, what did they train you on?
TF: They trained [laughs] they trained us on all sorts of old pieces of aircraft. I don’t think there was a complete plane. Actually, when I was [unclear] was when I went to start the training someone came in to [laughs] in to my classroom one day and said, ‘Would there be any chance that there’s a sign writer here?’ So I said, ‘Yes.’ So he said, ‘Well, could you come through so that I’ll show you what we’d like you to do?’ And they wanted me to do some small lettering on a sort of board you see and said, ‘Well, the problem is I don’t know when you’re going to be able to do it. You can’t miss any of your course and you certainly can’t be expected to give your spare time because you’ll not have enough. You’ll be spending more of your spare time studying anyhow so would you mind missing PT? So I said, ‘Well, if it’s for the good of the Air Force I’ll miss PT.’ And so, when everyone else went to do PT in the middle of the morning I used to just go and spend a bit of time in there and in reality waited ‘til the tea van came around and had a cup of tea and a bun or something while everybody else was doing PT. But most of the things were very old pieces of aircraft. Just an engine here and there and we, I don’t ever recollect seeing an aircraft with an engine in to do anything. But however, we had our tests and we passed out as a flight mechanic engine. You had the choice of being either engine or air frame. If you were air frame you were usually referred to as a rigger and if you were an engine you were usually referred to as a fitter.
GT: So that was your choice. You were given a choice to be a rigger or an engines.
TF: Yes. A rigger or a fitter. One looked after the airframe and one looked after the engine.
GT: So how many was on your course when you went through there?
TF: I would think possibly about twenty or twenty four. Maybe two dozen.
GT: Did, did you lose anybody? Did they drop out or move on?
TF: I honestly couldn’t remember but I don’t think so.
GT: And the tests you did at the end there was it written or did you have to prove yourself on the machinery?
TF: Well, I think it was mainly written but it was also taken into consideration your work that you’d done during that time. One of the things I remember which seemed a complete waste of time was trying to find a piece of metal as a cube to fit into a square hole. And I could never for the life of me, never could think what that was going to have to do with an aircraft was spending hours and hours filing away to get a perfect fit.
GT: So during that time at St Athan then your barracks you were in were you twenty men to a room? Did you have bed packs? Did you have spit and polish shoes? Did you have marching?
TF: No. We didn’t have marching but we were expected to spend one evening cleaning the room and leaving everything neat and tidy for the COs inspection the following day. That was once a week.
GT: No stand by your beds inspection?
TF: I don’t recollect that. No.
GT: Interesting.
TF: On the whole, yeah it was reasonably comfortable and beds, we did have, we did all have a sort of a little fitted wardrobe each to put clothing and things in and, and then at the end of that time we were given two weeks leave.
GT: So how long was a course for, Tom?
TF: Well, I think it would be about sixteen weeks. I went in, I think it would probably be the 1st of May when I went in and it would be October when I passed out and that would have been a week at, a month at Blackpool and the rest of the time at St Athan. And I was given two weeks leave and, with instructions to report to Number 92 Squadron at Gravesend. So, I thought from Gravesend being at the, on the Thames Estuary I thought it was going to be a very busy station with getting fighters and bombers going. But however [laughs] when I got down to Gravesend, they said, ‘Oh, 92 Squadron. They’re not here.’ So, I went, ‘I’ve trailed all the way. Come all the way from one end of the country to the other.’ ‘No.’ He said, ‘They’re not here. I don’t know where they are.’ And I thought surely you must know. But then when I thought about it later I thought, well no. You didn’t give information like that away. They were just, suddenly the squadron would just go and they wouldn’t say where they were going. So, I was told to, I was shown where I could have a bed for the night, where to go and get a meal, ‘And after breakfast in the morning if you come back here I’ll have found out where 92 Squadron are and give you a railway warrant again and you can go join them.’ So when I went back he said, ‘Well, they’re in Lincoln at an airfield called Digby. So, I then took all my kit, got a bus in to London and then the train up to Lincoln and then on to, to Digby.
GT: So you were still eighteen years old at this time.
TF: At that time. Yes.
GT: And you got to Digby ok and what aircraft did they have when you first arrived?
TF: Spitfires. And, and it was actually in a way a little bit of an exciting time because obviously there was no television but we did see news regularly. News came on the radio. Everybody was glued to the radio for the 9 o’clock news and you kept hearing about, particularly during the Battle of Britain how they’d shot such a lot of German planes down and such like which later we discovered was great exaggeration. There were never anywhere near that number shot down. However, you saw the, the squadrons taking off and looked across and you saw, I saw great big bell outside the crew room and the notice up, chalked on a blackboard. “When you hear this bell you will run like hell.” And so when you, when somebody pokes their head out of the door and shouts, ‘92 Squadron, five minutes readiness.’ And the pilots then all knew that whatever they were doing would have to be dropped in five and be off in the plane and away. And then we would come out, possibly come out when it was time to go and ring this great big bell and we would dash down and unplug the, well wait ‘til the pilots got the planes started, unplug the starter batteries out and wave them out because a Spitfire a pilot can’t see where he’s going if he’s looking ahead because of the little wheel at the back on the ground. And if that lifts up the propeller’s going to hit the ground and twists so you sort of slowly guide them out and then they’re away and you see the whole squadrons flying off to somewhere and you know, you feel, well I’ve had some little part in this. And then when they come back they were immediately refuelled and every morning they were checked over completely to be ready for the next time.
GT: So, what Mark of Spitfire was flying on that squadron at that time?
TF: I don’t honestly remember. I just do know that they weren’t fitting with cannon. They were definitely just the eight gun and, but they were three bladed propellers. I gather some of the early ones were only two but later they were four. But I’m not sure what the number was.
GT: That’s fine. So, so when you got to Digby did they have everybody put into barracks again? Or did you have single billets or —
TF: No. It was a pre-war station and they were, it were quite good because there were a block. A big block of building and A Flight would have one side and B Flight another and the downstairs would be, we were all split into two watches because you had to cover every, complete daylight so sometimes it could be from what? 5 o’clock in the morning until 11 o’clock at night. And so obviously we were split in to two. Two watches. And one watch would have one room and there would probably be about twelve or twenty people in the room. But they were brick built and pre-war, centrally heated and incorporated on the landings. There were bathrooms and things. They were reasonably comfortable.
GT: So, you chose rigger as your trade.
TF: No. Fitter.
GT: You went fitter. So, from the engines that you had to work on at St Athan you arrived on the squadron and you were given Merlins to look after.
TF: Merlins, ah huh.
GT: So, did you learn your skill on how to maintain a Merlin directly there on the squadron? Was that a quick learning session for you?
TF: Well, what we trained on at St Athan were Kestrels which were really very similar to a Merlin but only very, nowhere near the power. But I suppose we must have just picked a lot up as we went along really. And I was there for a relatively short time and then for some reason or other I got posted to 417 Squadron.
GT: And what time, what date was that then, Tom? How long did you spend at Digby?
TF: That would be [pause] October. Just before Christmas. It was probably end of November.
GT: So barely two months. Barely two months or so on 92.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: Right. So you went up to 417.
TF: 417.
GT: And where were they based?
TF: Charmy Down in Somerset. Near, very near Bath.
GT: And aircraft type?
TF: Spitfires.
GT: And how long were you there for?
TF: I was there quite a while and I was very surprised to find I was now in the Canadian Air Force. It was all four. All the Canadian squadrons were fours.
GT: And how did they, work out? The very —
TF: Well, it was, it was just being formed. It was a new squadron just being formed so the pilots were, had a lot of, a long way to go to get operational and they were all Canadian. And the ground staff, the fitters and riggers were mostly Canadian but I think they must have been a bit short and there was about a half dozen or so of British boys made their numbers up.
GT: Was the Battle of Britain still going at that time or had it finished?
TF: No. The Battle of Britain was over then.
GT: Ok. Just going back then. So, you were on 92 Squadron during the Battle of Britain.
TF: No. I was still after the Battle of Britain.
GT: That was still just after. Ok.
TF: The Battle of Britain was 1940.
GT: Alright.
TF: And that was 1941 when I went in.
GT: Was there still much German aircraft activity that the Spitfires were going up to meet at that time?
TF: Not a great lot. I think what had happened was the squadron had originally been at Gravesend and they were very busy. They were. And when they went up to Lincoln there was a little bit of a rest. They weren’t going to be quite so, so busy and while I was there we had a visit from the King who came up to inspect the squadron.
GT: What’s your recollections of meeting the King? Did you shake hands? Did he talk to you?
TF: No. My recollection is of being rather appalled at the idea of, we had to parade in front of the hangar in our best uniforms and shoes polished and such like and the announcement came over, ‘All personnel not on essential duties will line the roadway and cheer his majesty when he goes past.’ And I thought I’ve seen this on the newsreels and you used to think it was spontaneous but you were actually ordered to go out and cheer the King. [laughs] And the other recollection I have for him was that his face was absolutely plastered with makeup. He looked, almost looked as if he was trying to smile or do anything. Well, he had a little permanent half smile. If he tried not to it looked as if it would all crack or something. It was really thick. It may have looked fine on camera but it looked ridiculous when you were close to him. And so things weren’t all that busy at Digby when I was there but now as I say there were, there were just this Canadian squadron was just being formed. It was bitterly cold weather then but obviously got in thick and one of the things that surprised me was we used to have to put heaters in the planes to stop them freezing. I don’t know why because they always had ethylene glycol in the tank. Anti-freeze. But however, they had these heaters to go under the engine and another one under the cockpit and the fitters always looked after the heater. And one day I noticed on the notice board, it said, “In future the flight mechanics will not do any servicing to the catalytic heaters.” They will — “This will be carried out by a specialist.” And then a bit further down, “The specialist will be AC Fisher.” And I I don’t know one end of them from the other [laughs] I have no reason why I would know anything more about them but the following day someone came and collared me after I’d finished my breakfast and said, ‘I’m taking you to —’ I think it was to Colerne. Another Air Force station, ‘Where you are going to get a day’s instruction on catalytic heaters.’ So, I went there for a day and on the strength of that I, I was then inspecting them. But it was quite a good job because it was bitterly cold weather and when all the mechanics were bringing the heaters off the planes they were still quite warm so I had my little part quite, quite heated. So —
GT: Fascinating. Well, those Canadians should have been used to the cold weather, wouldn’t they?
TF: Well, yes. So, and then I was supposed to have them all ready for early evening to go back in having been checked over and refuelled and such like.
GT: So you became a bit of a specialist on the base then. Very good. So how long did you stay with 417 and where did you go from there?
TF: I stayed with 417, not very long. I stayed with them for I suppose getting [pause] we moved about, about the Easter of the following year up to a place in Scotland called Tain. But I always remember that because I’d been out and when I came in he sort of said, ‘Oh. We’re moving and you’re on the advanced party. You’ve got to leave tomorrow.’ And I said, ‘Well, where are we going?’ ‘I’ve never heard of it.’ But it was quite a journey up from, from Somerset up to the north of Scotland.
GT: So that was about Easter 1942.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: Be about there. And how long did it take to move the squadron up there?
TF: Well, quite a while in a way. We went up and funnily enough the weather was beautiful. We were sitting out most of the time waiting for the planes arriving and of course they were being flown up. And it was probably two or three days and then things just, were just continued there and then things started to change. We got issued with tropical uniforms and it was, the Canadian boys went on embarkation leave and one half at a time and then there’s the other half and it never occurred to me to query why we didn’t get any embarkation leave. But however, I just thought we were going. I had all the gear. The kit. And somebody came in one day and rattled a few names out and said, ‘You’ll not be going with the squadron. You’ll remain here and look after the planes and they are always to be available at about half an hour’s readiness.’ And so the squadron moved off to the Middle East and about half a dozen of us stayed behind and gave the planes a check over every day and ran the engines up to full boost and and there was nothing else to do. It was absolutely very boring. But luckily for me I came in to our hut one day and there were one of the boys looking really miserable and I thought he’d had bad news from home, and I said, ‘What’s wrong.’ He said, ‘I’ve been posted.’ I thought, oh, lucky you. ‘Where are, where are you going?’ He said, ‘I’m going to Inverness but I’m all by myself. I’ve got to go all by myself to Inverness.’ I thought, ‘What a dreadful thing to happen. Would you like me to go instead?’ He said, ‘Ahum.’ I said, ‘Well, look, let’s go to the orderly room and see if we can get it changed.’ So I went down. I said, ‘Was the posting by name or just for a flight mechanic?’ And he said, ‘Just for a flight mechanic.’ I said, ‘Can you change that name to T Fisher?’ And he said, ‘Yes, but mind you you’ve got to go in the morning.’ Everything in the Air Force was wanted to be done yesterday but then you do nothing for about six weeks and then again its a rush. And so I went down to Inverness and that was the best thing I ever did in the Air Force actually. I’d only been there a week or two when the, it was a tiny little station and it was 14 Group Headquarters Communication Flight and they called the station Longman. And I [pause] and then while I was there there was a notice came out and the CO called a little parade of flight mechanics. There would have been about possibly twelve of us altogether of riggers and fitters and he said, ‘I’ve got a communication from the Air Ministry and they would like flight mechanics to volunteer to become flight mechanic air gunners. So, ‘And if you would volunteer will you take a pace forward.’ So I duly took a pace forward and if I hadn’t the others took a pace back which would have left me standing at the front. And he said, ‘You’d better come and see me this afternoon.’ So I went to see him and he said, ‘What on earth made you want to be a flight mechanic air gunner? Is it because you wanted to fly?’ And to be quite frank I felt like saying if the Air Force hadn’t have such silly names for people calling people a pilot officer and he might never have, never a pilot at all and a flight mechanic that doesn’t fly.’ So, but however you don’t talk to COs like that so I said, ‘Yes. Because —’ He said, ‘Well, why on earth didn’t you join as a pilot?’ I said, ‘Well, the main reason is that the recruiting officer said flight mechanics were wanted more.’ I said, ‘But I also knew that pilots have to have a flying, had to have a school leaving certificate and I don’t have one.’ He said, ‘Well, that is true. You have to have a school leaving certificate but no one will ever ask to see it.’ So I thought oh, this is [pause] ‘So, in that case I’m recommending you for training as a pilot.’ So, in the fullness of time I, we got sent for to go down for a selection board which was held in Edinburgh. So I went down to Edinburgh. I was told to book myself in somewhere for a few days and I went down to Edinburgh and had this. And the first thing I noticed was we went in to a big room and there was a blackboard and somebody came in and whipped a cover off the blackboard and says, ‘You’ve got one hour to write an essay on the —’ And there was a choice of two or three subjects. So, I got that over and then there was a few tests like Morse aptitude test, another eyesight test, then a night vision test and then the next day had another paper handed out and it was a maths. An hour of maths. And at the end of all that there was an interview. Oh, no, after that there was a medical. And I thought that was when I was going to fail. We had to blow up a tube of mercury and I thought my lungs were going to burst and I just shut my eyes and blew and blew and blew and blew. And then I heard a voice say, ‘Alright, you’ve done it.’ And, ‘You’ve passed the aircrew medical and now you go for the Board.’ And we knew some of the questions you would automatically be asked about, ‘Why do you want to fly?’ And I was always amused because in the sort of Aircrew Association magazine that I used to get later people used to say what they’d always said to things but you knew full well they would never have said it. ‘Well, because if I’m got to go to war I’d like to do it sitting down.’ And so, another one, ‘Because you get more money.’ And so on. Anyhow, I knew neither of those would really have been what they said. So, I I said, ‘Why didn’t you join then?’ Well, I couldn’t very well say, ‘Because I don’t have a school leaving certificate.’ So I said, ‘Because I was told the flight mechanics were urgently needed.’ And so a few things and then the other thing that always puzzled me they set such a store on, ‘What sport did you play?’ So and for some reason we all knew that what they wanted to hear was that you played rugby. They didn’t want to hear you played Association Football. But as it happened I was never any good at any sports so I couldn’t. Netball, I would go the opposite way to what I wanted to go and I had never managed to bowl anybody out at cricket so I was absolutely no good. But however, I thought well, there’s no good saying that so I sort of said that, [pause] ‘Did you not play for your school?’ And I said [laughs] ‘No. The school I went to was in the middle of a large town. It had no playing fields.’ However, we did used to go to the swimming baths regularly and I said that I was also a very keen member of the Scouts Association Swimming Club which meant you could get in the baths for tuppence instead of three pence or something on certain nights. So that seemed to satisfy them. And, and then a few more questions and then I was told they would, I would be recommended but they explained that you no longer could you be a pilot. You had to agree to be a PNB which meant you would be a pilot, navigator or a bomb aimer but you all got the same pay and you all had exactly the same and you were all equally important. That was always stressed. And so I went back and just waited to be sent for again. And this was about three months must have elapsed before they sent for me so there was no urgency. And I went to Aircrew Reception Centre at London which I didn’t like at all. I never did care for, I never cared for London and that was the only thing I really remember about it was going for a long run through some of the London parks and to then, I thought that was the PT part. But no, you then started to stop in certain places and do exercises. And that night I was on fire watching which meant I was sleeping on the top bunk of a two decked bunk and only had to get up if there was, if the sirens had gone. Had to watch for where bombs had fallen. And when I leapt out of bed for my turn my legs just buckled up. I think with the unaccustomed exercise I couldn’t even stand [laughs] never mind run. It took me ages before I was able to walk again. And anyhow, I finished there and most people went up to Scarborough to do their ITW training but instead of going there I was sent to Cambridge and went to Pembroke College which was rather nice. I was quite pleased about that. And when we finished there we did an awful lot of law. Military. It’s Air Force law and administration. Civil law. And we did meteorology which is understandable and, but and then there was the exams at the end and, and then if you, you never knew who had passed and who hadn’t because if people hadn’t passed something they just were whisked away. You never saw them. You couldn’t see anything. Speak to them even. Anyhow, I then moved down to a little airfield called Sywell, near Nottingham and learned to fly on Tiger Moths which was quite, I thought that was great. To sit in a little plane and push the throttle forward to get more power and pull the stick back a bit and I’m actually flying now, you know. And that was fine for two or three days but then they started to have to do spins and loops and oh dear and I was just felt absolutely ill with that. Oh, I felt horrible. And anyhow, I stuck it out for the training and then the chief instructor gave us all test flight and he told me that he didn’t think I was going to be suitable for pilot training which I think I already knew [laughs] And so I I was then put down to be a bomb aimer. And from [pause] from there I went to Manchester but we didn’t do anything. It was just a question of waiting until we went out to Canada. And in the fullness of time I got on the Andes and it was quite a nice pleasant run and landed at, I think it was St Johns in Canada and went up to Nova Scotia. Not Nova Scotia. New Brunswick. And then eventually down to Ontario for a bombing and gunnery course. And I always remember the first time we flew. The pilot said, ‘It’s just a wind finding exercise, isn’t it?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, how about if we do it over Niagara Falls?’ Oh, I thought. That’s great. And, you know, that sort of thing. Gosh. I never ever thought I would be sitting here flying over Niagara Falls. And so, I finished there and then went on to Number 1 Air Observer’s School which was mainly for navigation and flew quite, trips out across the Great Lakes and navigated about Canada and quite, quite pleasant really. And it was much easier than doing it over here because there was no blackouts so if you saw a train going along with lights on you think well there should be a railway line near here. Well, yes that must be it. Where here there are so many trains you don’t know where you were going. And towns were all lit up so again that was good, everything was easy, quite pleasant and a plentiful supply of everything. And, and we used to spend most weekends going down to America. And so I was quite, quite happy time to be there. And eventually we finished training and the great day arrived when we could get our flying badge and it was quite a do. They assembled the whole, the whole of the station and the courses passing out which in this case was us would be in the middle and you would hear your name read out and we were all forever being told you put, you have your white flash very loose in your hat so it can be easily plucked out and you hear your name which in my case was Sergeant Fisher, Sunderland, England. And the next might be Sergeant Jones of Winnipeg, Canada. So we went and stepped forward and some air marshall picks out, plucks out the white flash and someone hands him a flying badge and pinned it in and then you give him a salute and walk away. And there was the band playing, and a marquees with a buffet meal laid out and they made quite a do of it.
GT: Was the course you were on, Tom was it a mixture of of English, Canadian, New Zealand, Australian? The people —
TF: Mostly when I was there they were about fifty fifty English and Canadian. I don’t think there was, I don’t know if there was any Australian although we did see, there were quite a few Australians waiting to go on courses when we were waiting at Manchester to go over to Canada. So, there were obviously some Australians would go.
GT: That was the Commonwealth Training Scheme.
TF: Yes.
GT: Because the majority of New Zealand and Australian aircrew went through that scheme before they headed off through to England. So it’s interesting to hear you actually went the other way to so this training scheme to go back to England. So, when you finished that training and you were given the half brevet of observer or bomb aimer.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: Which one?
TF: Well, it was really what we used to be called observer and that went out of fashion and bomb aimer, but bomb aimer had also become much more of a navigating. And when I went on to bombers they used to work in conjunction with the, we had a navigator and one of us would operate one radar set. I think I used to do the Gee and he used to do H2S and —
GT: So, for your time then in Canada how long did you spend overall and then what was the dates and year that you got back to England?
TF: I would say slightly less than a year overall there. A lot of that time was hanging about mind. When I was at Moncton we weren’t doing, we weren’t, it wasn’t, they were just waiting to go somewhere else. Then there was two weeks leave when I went to New York and then back to Moncton to wait for a ship to bring us back home again. So, the actual time was getting on for a year altogether.
GT: When you were in the USA what was the feeling like about the war and obviously they recognised you guys because you were all in our English RAF uniforms or did you change in to civilians and try to keep yourself —
TF: No. No. We always wore our uniforms and we didn’t have passports. It was quite sufficient to have your identity card in your pocket when they came around at the front of you. They would just look at that and went across. There was no bother. It was really quite pleasant actually because the Americans were really really good. It was not unusual to go in to a restaurant for a meal when you asked for the bill or as they would always call it the check, you would always get oh its been paid for. Or someone to come in the bar and produce a tray of drinks on your table and say, with the gentleman, ‘With the compliments of that gentleman in the corner.’ And yes. They thought we were marvellous you see. But —
GT: What were the American ladies like? Did you get to go out to the nightclubs or the —
TF: Yes.
GT: Dances. Dine and dances.
TF: Yes. No problem at all like. I always remember going to one and as soon as I got in this girl came up and said, ‘Are you with or without?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m without.’ She said, ‘With now.’[laughs]. But, oh yes, there was never any problem on that score.
GT: Because you know the Americans were over in England [laughs]
TF: Yes, I know, and I think we to a large extent were treated the same as the way they were. Only of course they had lots of goodies to give away and such like but there was no need for that anyhow in America. There was plenty of things. But yes they were. They were very very interested to know what we were doing. Oh, it was a sort of a wonderful time. I used to, it was only a Friday evening we used to get a train from Toronto down over the border to Detroit. And, and what really happened was a terrific contrast because in Canada you cannot get drinks other than coke. There was no, no bars you can’t get a drink in restaurants and its quite, quite strict on that score but you could just cross over the border. And even in Niagara in the American part there’s nightclubs and business going on all night. In the Canadian half it shuts down quite, no where to go drinking and things like that.
GT: So you were about twenty years old by this time.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: You had yet to have your twenty first to come. Right. And so, when you finished in Canada you were all put on another ship back to Britain.
TF: Yes.
GT: Was it part of a convoy or was the ship fast enough to avoid the U-boats?
TF: The ship, it wasn’t a convoy. None of them were in convoy. It was reckoned it would be fast enough but if by any chance it got torpedoed it would have been terrible because it was so crowded. It was a very big ship. The Mauretania and it was, oh, I was absolutely appalled when we went on and they gave us a hammock. I says, ‘Go to sleep in a hammock?’ And it’s and I realised afterwards we were lucky to have hammocks to sleep in. At least we were in the top half as well where there was a bit more air and such like. It was so crowded they could only give, there was plenty of food but they could only give us two meals a day because they just, you know there wasn’t the space. They couldn’t fit any more in to the dining rooms.
GT: So how long was that journey? Two weeks?
TF: No. About a week each way.
GT: Brilliant. So, when you got back to England what happened to you then?
TF: Well, they sent us up to Harrogate for, for a very short while and then we came home on leave for two weeks. I went back to Harrogate and we stayed there for a few, a few weeks again and then for some strange reason I went up to Whitley Bay to do what they called a survival course and it always puzzled me why I was picked. Nobody else on the course went with me. I just went up to Whitley Bay and I was a bit appalled actually because when I got there I was issued with khaki battledress and great thick heavy army boots and we spent a lot of time running about on, on the beach and the purpose really was to try and show us how we could survive on stuff you could find on beaches. Sort of, you know I think I’d rather just die than eat some of this stuff to be quite frank. But, and I always thought it was funny to think that we were marching around like a lot of little soldiers during the, during the day and in the evening we went back to our billets. We were in sort of houses in, not, they weren’t people living in them but the houses had been sort of commandeered and they were empty and they just put beds and a few tables and things in for us and we changed to our Air Force uniform and go down to a dance. And I often thought I wonder if people realised we were, and also of course we were very proud of our new flying badges but then again in the morning we were back again in to this khaki uniform. But I flatly refused to wear Army boots. But on the other hand it was a bit awkward because we still wore those funny little gators and there was a gap between the top of my shoes and the [laughs] and the gator. So if you ran through a stream your feet were absolutely soaking wet. But anyhow, it was only a short course and when that was finished of all places I came up here to Heathhall.
GT: And that was a posting that that you asked for or was it just something you were told to go to?
TF: It was just something we went to. It was called Number 10 Advanced Flying Unit. And it was flying Avro Ansons and it wasn’t bad. It was quite pleasant really. We used to fly over the Irish Sea and over to Ireland and the Isle of Man and such like and a lot of, a lot of little cross countries and such like and [laughs] I never thought at the time that I would be living so near to, to Heathhall.
GT: So, what year was this? What month and year? Can you remember?
TF: Oh, we’re getting on for ’44 now I would think.
GT: And what was your role to be doing at this with the Ansons? You were still training? Or did you teach others?
TF: Navigating. Navigating and [pause] mostly navigating but we did, did drop practice bombs and actually it was part of the targets, one of the targets we used was, is still visible through the, through the, you can see the base of it and usually I had a cross country flight and then come back and we’d go, go and drop bombs. Six bombs from different directions over. It was either there or Luce Bay and and I think that was mainly what we did here at Heathhall. And then from there I got posted up to Lossiemouth and that’s where we were told we would have to find, sort yourself out in to crews.
GT: Oh, what, what base was that at? Sorry you went to the Lossiemouth base.
TF: Lossiemouth.
GT: Ok.
TF: Ah huh. It was an Operational Training Unit.
GT: Ok.
TF: I think we were number 20 OTU and, and we were in a way sort of lucky there because we were told we would have to form crews and from what I’d understood with most people the whole collection of aircrew was put in to a hangar and told to, ‘Sort yourselves in to crews and if you haven’t formed yourselves in to crews in an hour we’ll just come and put you in.’ But we were told to sort yourselves out in to crews and you’ve got a week to get that done. So just get to know each other in the bar, in the mess and get, get to know each other and and see what happens. And the second day over there I was [unclear] I was going to have a drink before the lunch break and there was a flying officer and a flight sergeant came in and they came straight across to me and one said, ‘Oh, I’m John and this is Eric. Eric’s my navigator and we would like you to join us as bomb aimer.’ And I thought well he’s a flying officer. That’s not bad. He must have some experience. So I readily agreed and I discovered afterwards that why he had had experience they’d kept him on as an instructor. So I felt quite confident we’d got a good pilot.
GT: Yeah.
TF: And then during that time we collected a rear gunner and a wireless operator and that meant five of us in the crew and we were now on Wellingtons and but [pause] And then after a little while the, for some strange reason again we were posted down to Moreton in Marsh and we were now told we were going to join Tiger Force.
GT: Now, you earlier mentioned it was 1944. So, by this time when did you get posted to 20 OTU in Lossiemouth?
TF: I was posted to 20 OTU in Lossiemouth and then from Lossiemouth posted to 21 OTU at Moreton in Marsh.
GT: But what year was that please, Tom?
TF: Oh, we were getting on for ’45 then, I guess.
GT: So you spent quite a bit of time training within the UK once you got back from Canada.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: On the Ansons, wasn’t it? I was just thinking back to the time you spent down here training on the Ansons. So how long did you spend on bomb aimer training with the Anson aircraft?
TF: The Bomb aimer training at?
GT: With the Ansons you were, you were bombing off of here somewhere. So —
TF: At here they were Ansons, ah huh.
GT: There’s quite a few months for you doing that.
TF: Probably, I don’t think it was a long time, probably about four months.
GT: And that took you in to early 1945. Wow.
TF: It would be getting on for that. Around that time. Ah huh.
GT: So, you, you were aware at the time with your crew that the war was closing. It was coming to an end.
TF: I don’t think we were actually. I don’t think we were. I don’t think. I don’t think we knew very much beyond our own immediate little —
GT: Right.
TF: No. I don’t think. We’d heard obviously you heard on the radios, news reels and you saw newsreels in cinema but I don’t think we were actually aware that it was getting so near finishing.
GT: Because it’s a long time to be spending doing your training when —
TF: It is an awful long time. Yes. But of course. there was such an awful long time of waiting in between. Sort of from Pembroke College, Cambridge to Flying School was straight off but then Flying School to going out to Canada to do really the next part of your training there was about three four maybe six weeks in Manchester. A week on the ship and two or three weeks at Moncton in Canada. All we always kept doing something but there was nothing to do with our, with training. It wasn’t until we got down to the Bombing and Gunnery School that you started to realise it and you also realised these were the only places they were giving us any tests at the end to make sure you’d, you got through. The others were just filling time in.
GT: So, when you crewed up at 20 OTU Lossiemouth did you do any flying there or did you go straight down south?
TF: I don’t recollect doing much in the way of flying Lossiemouth. I think we went down to, to Moreton in Marsh.
GT: That was 21 OTU.
TF: 21 OTU. Yes.
GT: Ok. So, and you did flying time there then.
TF: Yes. We did quite, oh we did a lot of flying time there and it made you wonder what we’d all been trained for first because now all the methods that we’d been doing were hardly used because there there was radar and you had a new type of bombsight. The Mark 14. The old one you used to have to watch for your target coming up between two wires and it looked like a really primitive thing. It was, it looked a bit like a compass and then an arm sticking out and you had to just search for the, find the target. Yes. I think. Give the pilot instructions. ‘Left. Left.’ Which incidentally if you wanted him to go to the left it was always, ‘Left. Left.’ And if it was right it was always just, ‘Right.’ So if he heard two he would know it was left. And gave him instructions and always one that, don’t do any last minute corrections because a bomb will always go in the direction the plane’s going. So if he’s moving to the left the bomb will just go over to the left and not to where you wanted it to go. And so yes it was [pause] but now we had a thing, which just shone across on the ground. And you just had to direct the pilot to get so that that cross went, the long arm went up over the target and when he reached the cross piece that was when you pressed the button and it released a bomb.
GT: So was it, ‘Bombs gone.’ ‘Bombs away.’
TF: Oh, ‘Bombs gone, yes.’
GT: ‘Bombs gone, skipper’
TF: But yes, it was usually something like we do sort of working out in your settings and wind speeds and all that and then said, ‘Bomb doors open.’ Because the pilot would open the bomb doors and then you would then say, ‘Number one and two selected and fused, nose and tail. Because if you dropped a bomb before it’s fused it doesn’t explode. Or so they say [laughs] I wouldn’t know.
GT: So, with the arming of your weapons you had a selection panel to choose and you already knew what bomb load you had. Is that correct?
TF: Well, you would. Yes. Because it’s got to be, it’s better if it goes out evenly and not all at one side first when it’s fused and you always had to select and fuse and then you —
GT: So those fuse setting that you, you then set the bombs before you released them was that given to you as part of your briefing before. Before you were to leave for an operation or was that something you chose when you were there for the, during the flight. The fuse settings for the bombs where did they come from?
TF: They were put on by the armourer.
GT: Yeah.
TF: And —
GT: So you knew the fuse settings before you took off.
TF: Well, it was just a switch.
GT: Good. Ok.
TF: And, and apparently we would [give them away] was because they would be left hanging on the thing. If there were little things left hanging on the bomb rack they would drop them without the fuses being set.
GT: Right. So that, that’s your arming wire which is selected to the, to the micro switch on the aircraft. So, you set the micro switches to hold the arming wire. As the bomb fell away wire came out of, out of the nose fuse and allowed the spinning propeller to arm the fuse of the bomb. Yeah. Good stuff. Ok. So, so Tom then once you moved down to 21 OTU that must have been pretty much near the end of the war.
TF: It would be because it was when you say 21 OTU. When we finished, we finished our training on 21 OTU and then we moved up to I think it was 16 I can recall 1630 or 1830 Heavy Conversion Unit.
GT: And what aircraft did you convert from the Wellington to that?
TF: From the Wellington to the Lancaster.
GT: Lancaster Mark 4 or Mark 3s generally. The Merlin engine.
TF: Merlin engines. Yes. Four Merlin engines which lots of people blame for having hearing aids in later life but —
GT: That’s a point to ask you, Tom. For your hearing protection. You didn’t have any hearing protection.
TF: Didn’t have any at all. And it wasn’t just in the, in the, in with four Merlins in the Lancaster but running the Spitfires up on the ground to maximum boost. There were no other. It can’t have done the ears any good at all. But to go back to Lancasters we’d now collected two more in the crew making it up to seven. A flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
GT: And, and that was and at what base were you at, Tom?
TF: North Luffenham.
GT: North Luffenham. So, now, now the war had finished you mentioned Tiger Force early on.
TF: Yeah.
GT: So, can, I know what Tiger Force was. Can you describe to me what you knew of Tiger Force at that time?
TF: Well, I just knew that we were going to go to Japan and I also know, quite vividly remember being to keep, we were going to have a little capsule of some sort of poison sewn in our, in the collar of our battle dress. We were told that if you get shot down the choice is yours. You can either be taken prisoner or you can bite the end of your battle dress off and take that.
GT: Cyanide probably.
TF: It was poison. Yes.
GT: Ok. So you were training on, on the Lancasters at this time. Had the atomic bombs been dropped?
TF: No.
GT: No. Ok, so you were, with this training in Tiger Force did they mention the Lincoln bombers to come?
TF: I’d heard of them. I didn’t know what they were but, particularly what they were though but I did read afterwards that the British government and the American government had come to an agreement that we would send out Tiger Force which would consist of twenty squadrons of Lancasters plus 1830 Heavy Conversion Unit. Why that I don’t know but that was what we were on so we knew full well we were going to, to go out.
GT: There was quite a numerous amount of squadrons of Mosquitoes to go as well I understand from the Tiger Force —
TF: I would think. I would think so because the Mosquito was a fantastic aeroplane.
GT: Certainly. So, they actually stated to you you were going to be going to Japan or bombing Japan.
TF: Well, I suppose we’d be bombing Japan first, isn’t it? No. There were, one or two places were mentioned but I don’t think it was officially. Officially mentioned.
GT: So how many flights did you do then in preparation for that? Because VE Day had happened.
TF: VE day had happened. Yes. And it sort of quite regular really. I might also mention earlier on when we were on OTU on Wellingtons that one night there was somebody extra seemed to get in. Come on wearing a flying suit so you couldn’t see what he was or what his rank was but he was an extra person came along that night. And the following morning we found we were no longer had a radio operator in the crew. [pause] He’d, he’d been taken out and that was the Air Force way of doing things. You know, no chance to say cheerio or anything. It was just [pause] I’m assuming that he wasn’t up to scratch and he just disappeared and later in the day we just got a new one.
GT: Did you have any, any idea that some of your crew members were unhappy or couldn’t take the strain? Or —
TF: No. No idea at all.
GT: And at this time you had done no overseas operational bombing —
TF: No.
GT: Sorties at that time.
TF: No.
GT: Because —
TF: No, it was very shortly, we’d only been crewed up and flying for two or three times. That apparently is the RAF way of doing it. I think they thought it might be bad for morale. They just —
GT: Were you made aware at the time of LMF? Lack of moral fibre.
TF: Of any —
GT: Lack of moral fibre. Were you aware of that term?
TF: Not an awful lot. I think I heard more of it afterwards. I think it was a disgusting thing. We knew of its existence but I suppose you always adopted the attitude of well it wouldn’t happen to me, would it?
GT: But you were a volunteer. All of you blokes were volunteers. Right?
TF: Yes.
GT: And they still treated you quite badly at that.
TF: It was, it was dreadful.
GT: Someone couldn’t keep it going. Ok. I’m assuming then that your navigator was, was removed from flying status because of his supposed lack of moral fibre and the way you described it. Would that be fair?
TF: Well, I think it possibly, could be that he was. Just wasn’t efficient enough with his, it was the radio operator. I think it could be just that he wasn’t in it. But I don’t know whether [unclear] would have anything to do with it but I did know that he was only member I knew in the aircrew that was married.
GT: Ok. Maybe he was removed so the war was finishing and they only wanted single, single men.
TF: It could be.
GT: Yeah.
TF: But there was no reason given. It’s just he flew with us one night and then we never saw him again.
GT: Right. So, when you did your training through on OTU and then on the HCU did you do any practice bomb dropping from the Wellingtons and then the Lancasters?
TF: Just practice.
GT: Just practice. Yeah. And how many hours have you accrued then for daylight and night time. Can you remember the flying hours you had done?
TF: It wasn’t a great lot.
GT: Now, Wellington. The Heavy Conversion Unit at that time is that pretty much where you much finished because you didn’t go to Lancaster Finishing School at all?
TF: No. That was one of the things that always puzzled me. Why didn’t we go to a Lancaster Finishing School like other people? But I realised afterwards it was because we did all of it on Lancasters. The others that went to Lancaster Finishing School went on to Stirlings and Halifaxes and then just did a short time on Lancasters but we did the whole of Heavy Conversion on Lancasters.
GT: Intriguing because most of the LFS Schools, Number 3 at Feltwell, for instance most of the 75 Squadron aircrew that I’ve talked with and seen their logbooks they only did four flights. Four to five flights in one week from a Stirling and then straight on to Lancaster. So, so you did, you did the full, that’s huge. Ok. So then, then came VJ day for you guys.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: And did flying pretty much cease because you were preparing for Tiger Force to get going to the Japan region.
TF: Well, that was to say rather strange. What happened in my case was just before VJ Day I was told I had to go and see the CO. And I went to see him and he said, ‘Your demob’s going to be coming up shortly.’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m not surprised,’ I said. I said, ‘But,’ he said, ‘My job actually is to persuade you to sign on.’ He says, ‘Now, you could. If you were, the best thing you could do you know would be to sign on for twenty one years. You’ve done five years. Twenty one years you’ll be thirty nine. Eighteen when you joined. Twenty one years. Thirty nine. You’ll retire on a pension at thirty nine.’ Which sounds very nice but it was going to be only a very small pension anyhow. But anyway, I thought well I don’t think the peacetime Air Force is for me. I think, I always think of the words of a PT or drill instructor and he had a gathering of us to take for a PT session early one morning. Our names appeared on the notice board to attend for PT and we all knew it was because we’d done some minor infringement of rules and regulations and we, I went down and I had my PT kit on and I had a sweater or something on top. It was a bit chilly. And a lot of the Canadians, well they were mostly Canadians actually and most of them were commissioned and they came down in overcoats for the PT, so he said, well of course as you realise he had to be reasonably polite. He couldn’t speak as if they were just, ‘Hey you,’ do this or do that. He said, ‘Could you take your overcoats off?’ ‘Oh, no.’ ‘No? Why not?’ ‘It’ll be cold.’ He said, ‘Well, you can’t do PT in overcoats.’ ‘Well, we could try.’ [laughs] And he got really exasperated and said, ‘It’ll be a good job when this war’s over and we can have a proper Air Force without all this flying.’ And I thought my goodness an Air Force without flying. Does he think the Air Force’s main purpose is to do PT and march about and things like that? No. The peacetime Air Force wouldn’t be for me.
GT: So, he swayed your decision to sign on further. Yeah. So, so you that chap was asking you to carry on as a bomb aimer.
TF: Yes.
GT: After the war.
TF: And, after the war and he says or you could just sign on for six months. And I thought well what’s the point.? I’ve, you know I’ve got to adjust now to going back to Civvy Street. I’m not staying in the Air Force. I’m quite sure of that. I could not possibly put up with the peacetime. I could imagine it. Marching here and marching there. Life was so free and easy and things and also it was, they would probably be a little bit more strict on the visions of class. You know. I mean, in the aircrew when we’d done a, whether your crew were officers or sergeants you all went in for a meal the same, in the mess at the same time having, and we all used to use the same mess. It was all, you know nobody did any different but I should think that changed in peacetime. And so I said, ‘No. I don’t think I will.’ And then he said, ‘Well, if you won’t sign on you won’t do any more flying.’ And I thought is this man crazy? They’ve spent thousands of pounds training me in two years or so. Training me for this and now because I won’t sign on [pause] and I just cannot stand sort of being threatened like that. It just, that was just enough. So, I said, ‘Well, in that case I don’t do any more flying. So, later that day we were down for night flying and I went along to the, the briefing room and there was the board for tonight’s crews. And there was a sort of list down the side of the pilot’s names and the list along of the crew and I looked down. Flying Officer Jorgenson. Navigator Flight Sergeant Stobes, bomb aimer — it should have said Flight Sergeant Fisher. It had been rubbed out. And I was absolutely appalled. I didn’t think he really would have done it that quickly. I was really really annoyed and so, oh well that’s it. I don’t. So I did nothing for two or three days and then I thought well, I think I might as well go home for all the good I’m doing here. So I did. And then I started to worry about it a bit. You know, you’re being rather stupid if you get, if they discover you. You’d probably lose your stripes and crown and your demob pay would go way down. Way down. So you’d better go back. So I went back and at the same time I was relieved but at the same time it was not good for your ego to know that nobody had ever missed you. And anyhow, I went and saw the adjutant and said, ‘What am I supposed to do?’ He said, ‘What do you mean what do you do?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m not flying now.’ He said, ‘Well, whose crew were you in?’ And I told him. He looked up some records, he says, ‘That was a few weeks ago.’ ‘Oh yes. Yes.’ He said, ‘What have you done since then?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m waiting for a job.’ He says, ‘You mean you’ve sat on your behind and done nothing.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I wouldn’t put it like that.’ He said, ‘I don’t see how else you can put it.’ Anyhow, he said, ‘Come in the office next to me and you can sort of help me. You can be a sort of assistant adjutant.’ So that’s what I did. But I didn’t like it at all.
GT: So, there was no other aircrew. Had the same thing happened to them? Did he just single you out or was it common across —
TF: Well, no. There was no more but as it happened after I had [unclear] him up for about forty years later and I got a telephone call and he mind, sort of said, ‘Am I speaking to Mr Fisher?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Thomas Fisher?’ ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Were you in the RAF?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘You used to like to spend your weekends at Cheltenham.’ And I said, ‘As it happens I did but how do you know all this?’
GT: Yeah. And what happened?
TF: And he said, ‘Well,’ he says, ‘One final. One final question. Were you in Yorgeys crew?’ We always called him, he was always, his name was Jorgenson. He was always known as Yorgey. And I said, ‘Well, yes. Yes, but who are you?’ He said, ‘Well, I’m Frank, the wireless operator,’ he says, ‘And I’ve set myself a task of when I retired I was going to trace all the crew so that we could have, and see if we could have a reunion.’ And he said, I said, ‘How have you traced me? I live in Scotland now. I’ve moved from the North of England.’ He said, ‘Well, I’m with Scotland Yard and you must remember I’m used to tracing people and most of them don’t want to be traced.’ So, he, he said, ‘Can you think of any of the other names?’ I said, ‘Well, how far have you got?’ He says, ‘Well, I’ve discovered that Johnny is, only lived about forty miles from me. So we’ve been together and you’re the next one.’ And eventually went through with the aid of a newspaper ad, an advertisement and eventually traced all the crew and we met up. All met up again at Woodhall Spa. It was amazing to see each other after an absence of [pause] this would be about 1990. An absence of about forty five years.
GT: So when you finished with, with the aircrew because as then flight sergeant you became deputy adjutant you didn’t keep in contact with your crew even though you were still the same?
TF: No. With actually, this was the first, I gather that VJ Day the crew, I mean I just couldn’t understand it. We’d worked together all this time and then we only did two more practice flights and then that was, that was it. They’d actually gone on a train to go down to an RAF station. I think it was in Cornwall and the RAF police boarded the train and singled them out and said, ‘Will you get off at the next station and return back to your base. You’re not wanted anymore.’ So that was only a matter of days before VJ Day was announced.
GT: Fascinating. That must have been really disappointing to spend all that time —
TF: It just struck me as so ridiculous to think all this training that I’d had and why split a crew up?
GT: And you were the only crew that you know of that this happened to.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: That recruiter, eh. He’s got a lot to answer for.
TF: And then in many ways I was certainly glad I didn’t sign on because it wasn’t very long before bomb aimers were redundant [pause] The aircrews, most aircrews were now restricted to two. Pilot and a navigator. Bomb aimers were not wanted. Air gunners were no longer wanted. Radio operators were no longer, were no longer needed after a while because the pilot doesn’t need, you don’t need to use Morse Code anymore. You can speak plain language over hundreds of miles.
GT: Mind you, you’d been given a lot of navigator training so most navigators later received bomb aiming training.
TF: Could possibly. Possibly I had about that. But there was hundreds of us. Thousands in fact, I suppose.
GT: The UK was awash with airmen wanting to do something.
TF: And then just finally I got a bit fed up working in, just in the office and I asked the adjutant if I could, I thought well, perhaps I could go and learn to drive. That would be more sense. And —
GT: So up to this point you’d never driven a vehicle.
TF: Never driven at all. No.
GT: Aged twenty one. Going on twenty two.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: Yeah.
TF: No. I mean there must have been hundreds of us learned to fly a plane before we learned to drive a car. And he says, ‘Well, I could send you to Catterick and they’ll give you some tests and see what your suitable for.’ So I went to Catterick [laughs] and I had, I don’t know what these tests were. How they were worked out but and then in the central, he said, ‘I’ve got the result of your test and it appears you would be ideal for training as a butcher and cook.’ I said, ‘You are joking surely.’ And I can’t really, don’t believe what I was hearing. I had been, I was told I was suitable to train as a flight mechanic which is a higher grading. And then I was training as a bomb aimer navigator and now I’m just suitable to be a butcher. And that’s the one thing I could not stand was the sight of raw meat. And I said, ‘Well, that is out of the question. I just will not do that.’ He says, ‘Well, what would you do?’ I said, ‘Well, learn driving. He said, ‘Well, there’s no vacancies.’ He did try I must admit. ‘No vacancies in any driving school but I could send you to a transport company and you could do local training.’ So I did get transferred to this but I never did any training out there at all. What I was used for was to fill in gaps where people were away. If they were short of. Although I wasn’t an officer I would often do a parade and I would take part as orderly officer or something. Whenever they were a bit short I filled in for that. And then eventually I just got demobbed. But I was just so, to think I’d had blooming tests and now it turned out I would have been better off as a butcher.
GT: That’s crazy. So did you follow up and look at the medals that you were entitled for your war service?
TF: Just, I was just entitled to the, what everybody was. The Defence Medal and the, the war —
GT: The ‘39/45 Star.
TF: Star. Ah huh.
GT: And, and did you send in to have them? Received them?
TF: I did take them.
GT: And you’ve got them now.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: You’ve still got them.
TF: Ah huh. Incidentally I’ve got a photo here of the crew.
GT: Oh ok.
[pause]
GT: Perhaps you can, I’ll tell you what we’ll finish the interview first there.
TF: Ok.
GT: And let’s have a look at those soon. But so from, from your time of being demobbed, Tom you obviously didn’t go the butcher route. So, what did you end up doing in your new civilian life?
TF: Well, I had two things in mind. I was, one of the things that I thought I might have, might have had some help on instead of doing this silly business saying I could be a butcher or something I thought if they might have told us what grants were available for what training purposes. So, I had, when I was, before I joined I worked for my father as a, as a painter and decorator. So, I just went back to, to doing that and the Air Force and the government paid part of my wage because I’d left as an apprentice and there I was twenty two twenty three and I would not, I would expect better pay than [laughs] so they made up the difference. I can’t remember how long it was but they did it for so long and I sort of settled again and that. And then eventually I, I expect my father was getting a bit past it so I took over and I had quite a reasonable business. I got some quite some, quite good customers such as Lloyds Bank and I did quite a lot of decorating on hospitals and schools and things and, and then I also had a wallpaper and paint shop. And that, that was the rest of my, my life.
GT: That was here in Dumfries?
TF: No. It was in Sunderland.
GT: Oh, ok.
TF: But I [laughs] must say that the shop itself became a bit of a nuisance because the supermarkets, the Do it Yourself supermarkets were coming out. The price maintenance came off paint and wallpapers and so there was sort of cut price wars. And then to make things worse the shop got broken into twice. I got a bit fed up with hearing the telephone go in the middle of the night. ‘Something about your place. Can you get around?’ So this was including one practical joker who rang me up about 3 o’clock in the morning and said, ‘This is Sunderland Fire Brigade. ‘There’s a fire at your wallpaper shop. Can you get around?’ And I thought, oh no. ‘Yes.’ So I went back up to the bedroom and started to get dressed and my wife said, ‘What was that about?’ I said, ‘It’s just some fire. She said, ‘Well, ring the Fire Brigade.’ I said, ‘Well, that was the Fire Brigade that rang me.’ She said, ‘Well, how do you know?’ So, ‘I Don’t.’ So, I rang the Fire Brigade and they hadn’t phoned at all. It was just a hoax call trying to get me around in the middle of the night.
GT: They were going to wait for you huh? So you met a lady and you married and had children I guess.
TF: Yes.
GT: Can you give us a little bit of your, your fond memories of that time? Who is your wife and your children?
TF: Yes. Well, I I was sort of quite fond of going dancing and that seemed to be the way of meeting most people but and I met my wife at a, at a dance and I sort of had a few dances with her. One or two. And then they played, which was the custom in those days of the last dance was always a waltz and they usually sort of announces that, ‘Will you take your partners for the last waltz?’ Which, when that finished I said, ‘Well, I’ll sort of see you home.’ And she said, ‘Well, I live up at Grindon.’ And I thought that’s a bit far isn’t it? But she said, ‘I get a bus.’ I said, ‘Where do you get the bus from?’ Park Lane was the bus station. ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I’ll go around that way.’ So, I went around that way and saw her on to the bus and arranged to see her again and then saw her two or three times and then it became quite a regular, a regular thing and and then that’s, we got married in 1950. And the problem was at that time was it was so difficult to get houses because with being so much bombing done at the places were instead of being streets of houses there were just streets of bomb sites and they were building new houses but the council where I lived in Sunderland would not allow any new houses to be built privately. Only council houses. And that was, created a problem. Well, firstly I didn’t want a council house and secondly you couldn’t get a council house until you’d had two children. So, so that’s how you fit that in was never explained. But eventually we, we looked at a few places and found somewhere we could live quite happily. I went, went in for it and I remember putting an offer in and the agents saying, ‘Well, mind I’m not having an auction, a Dutch Auction going on in my office, you know. If that’s your offer it has to be stick to that. If somebody comes along with better I’m not coming to see if you want to go any more.’ And then he added, ‘But I will place that offer before my client and I’ll advise her to accept it. And in a very short time I heard word that she had accepted and so we got well, the house if nothing else. And I got married in 1950. And, and I was sort of, you know having my own little business by then and, and then Julia and my other daughter came along and I think that was about it really, wasn’t it? I’d always wanted a wallpaper and paint shop and I just ran the business from my house you see and then someone sort of said he had one and he was retiring. He wanted to give it up, you know. He said would I like to take it and I said, ‘Yes. I think I’ll take it over. And and then we moved from where we were living until I was, just carried in until it was time to retire and my wife wanted to move somewhere else. She didn’t want to stay in Sunderland and I was quite happy there excepting I did get a bit fed up with having the shop broken into a couple of times but then I sold the shop anyhow. Then my house was broken into a couple of times and, and then I think I had my car broken into two or three times. So I thought well yes, I think I’ll agree. We’ll move. And my wife wanted to go down to Devon and, and I thought it’s nice. I like Devon. But I didn’t think I wanted to go that far the other end of the country you see. Anyhow, someone she knew suggested there was someone was building these houses just up this road and so we came through and had a look and decided to have one and I asked how much it would be. He said, ‘I’ll work you a price out.’ And this was in the middle of the summer and I always remember we got the price just as we were coming up to see you at Christmas. And so, after the Christmas we went, but unfortunately we couldn’t sell our other house it was just, so we had to let it go. So I had to ring the solicitor up and say we can’t go ahead with this and then the estate agents kept sending me a brochure and I looked at it one night when one came and I said, we’d sold our house in the meanwhile and I said [unclear] does this sound familiar to you, “In the village of Lonchinver, a three bedroom bungalow newly built. Just requires the purchaser to choose the bathroom and kitchen fittings.” That sounds like our house or what would have been our house and so I rang up and sure enough it was. So we came through to see it and it wasn’t quite like that. There was no walls up. It had a roof on but however we decided then we’d sort of decided we would move so we moved up over here. And that would be in nineteen, in 1991. So I’ve been here twenty six year now.
GT: Grandchildren?
TF: Two. One in Edinburgh and one in Aberdeen.
GT: Wow. Very good. And and in your retirement did you settle and golf, tennis, bowls?
TF: No. I I was never, never very keen on golf. No. I got, I bought a touring, a small touring caravan and we, we always went, we went once a year or two to a reunion and then went went away in the caravan about a month each year and a few weekends. And then I joined the Aircrew Association and they used to have some quite nice little breaks. About four day breaks. They were often connected with flying but not necessarily. Went down to Duxford for a few days. Up to the Scottish Memorial at East Fortune and Mildenhall.
GT: Was the Air Force Association something that was important to you after serving in the RAF?
TF: Not the Air Force Association itself but the Aircrew Association was. I suppose there were so many people in the Air Force Association and I did join actually. I more or less had to because they [laughs] they asked me to decorate their premises out and when they discovered that I’d been in the Air Force I really didn’t have any alternative but to join. But it wasn’t what I expected. It was merely a place to go and drink and a lot of the people they weren’t, hadn’t been in the Air Force anyhow. It was just, just a club to go drinking. But that wasn’t what I was looking for. But when I heard of the Aircrew Association I, it was a lady that my wife knew mentioned it and she said, ‘We have some really nice outings and get togethers. Why don’t you ask your husband if he wants to join?’’ So she mentioned it to me and then a few weeks later she said, ‘I’ll be seeing —' so and so, ‘This afternoon. What do I tell her? She’s sure to ask us if you would like to join.’ I said, ‘Tell her yes I would like to join. So, the following day a telephone call from the secretary and he said, ‘I understand you’re interested.’ I said, ‘Yes, I am.’ He said, ‘Yes, well. You were in the RAF.’ I said, ‘Oh yes, I definitely was.’ He said, ‘Do you know your number?’ I said, ‘Yes, I still know my number.’ And he said, ‘Were you aircrew? By that I mean not just did you fly but were you qualified?’ And I said, ‘Oh, yes.’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll make enquiries and we’ll be in touch.’ And obviously went to find out whether or not I’d actually, the bloke finally came back and he said, [unclear] so, ‘Would you like to come to our Christmas lunch?’ Which I did do. And well, regular quite regular lunches. Often here or down at the Valley and in the, in Dumfries. And then there was a monthly meeting so that was a regular thing then. But no, I never went in for golf or tennis or anything like that.
GT: What about air shows? Do you still, do you still look at the different aircraft that the aircraft are flying today? Of any interest?
TF: Not really. Not the ones today. I’ve always been more interested in in the old ones. In fact, there’s the Heathhall Airfield still have an aircraft museum and we are going there on Sunday, aren’t we? But yeah.
GT: And have you been to East Kirkby or Hendon or Coningsby where the Lancaster is?
TF: Yes. I went over to Coningsby and I saw the Lancaster in the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight.
GT: Fabulous. And —
TF: And that’s it. We were standing underneath it.
GT: Very good. So, your crew you mentioned that one of your crew members managed to get hold of you. So are your crew still about?
TF: No. I’m the only one left.
GT: You’re the last one surviving, eh?
TF: I’m the last one surviving. Ironically I was the oldest.
GT: Gosh. Yeah.
TF: I think at twenty two I was the old man of the crew.
GT: Do you think bomb aimer was was the job for you in the end? Did it work for you?
TF: It worked quite well yes. I mean. I quite, I would have been quite happy as a pilot but I realised that I was not in the position to be able if, if a plane got in to difficulties to get it out. Flying straight and level I could cope with quite well but if something happened you know I wouldn’t have been any use at all. And navigator? Well, bomb aimer and navigator were the same thing really. I think the only difference was the navigator did, went deeper into it and they did a thing called a square search which we never never did. But I mean we were expected to be able to navigate a plane. I mean, as an example we were flying in a Lancaster once and the radio operator says there, ‘Skip, the wireless if off. The radio. I can’t get anything on it at all.’ So, Johnny called and said, ‘Well, really you know we’re not supposed to fly over the sea without radio. What do you think, Eric?’ That was to the navigator. ‘Oh, press on.’ ‘What do you think Thomas?’ ‘Oh, press on regardless. Not a little thing like a radio going to stop us.’ So, we did and that was alright. And then suddenly there was a shout from Len, ‘Hey skip, port engine’s gone. Oil pressure’s right gone. There’s no pressure there at all.’ Oh, feather the port inner.’ And then it wasn’t very long before, The starboard engine’s now gone.’ So [laughs] so things looked to be getting bad. So we had two, just two engines and at the same time I heard the navigator, I think the navigator swearing away to himself you see and he said, ‘Oh skipper, the H2S is not working.’ And Dennis says, ‘Oh, well Tom will take over the navigating now.’ I said, ‘I’m sorry but Gee’s not working either.’ So, he says, well we had to get back to the old method of, of getting a bearing where you could and a course and came back to North Luffenham and called up on the radio. That was the one where you sent Morse messages out but plain talk on the other one was ok. And Johnny calls up and requests permission to land and they said, ‘We’re sorry. You can’t land here. There’s too thick fog so you can go to —’ It was somewhere near Oxford, and they gave us a course to fly if we went down there and we got there and then it was quite exciting in a way because you heard the flying control say to, ‘Clear all aircraft off. Emergency landing.’ And Johnny had called up and said, ‘Well, we’ve only got two engines. So yes. Emergency.’ And you saw the crash tent and ambulance coming up to meet us at the end of the runway and then race to be alongside us and you thought ee gosh, you know, in a couple of minutes time I could be in the back of that ambulance. Or I might just be walking away. So I think I’d better get down in to a crash position and go down with my back to the main spar and then thankfully you felt a bump bump bump. We’re down now. We’re alright.
GT: Because your bomb aimer’s position is lying prone in the nose, isn’t it?
TF: With your back on to the main spar.
GT: Yeah.
TF: In the event of an emergency the bomb aimer gets the, lifts the first aid kit off the hook and takes a chopping axe off it’s thing. Stuffs them down in the front of his battledress and gets your back of the main spar and then that’s it.
GT: I can’t think of anything worse that’s going to kill you it’s an axe stuffed in your pocket. Yeah. Well, well Tom is it, you’ve given us such an amazing amount of your recollections and your time obviously the war finished before you got a chance —
TF: Finished. Yes.
GT: To do any operations per se but do you remember any of your friends that that got on operations? Did anybody talk to you about what they saw? What happened.
TF: Well, one thing I do remember is that after that I volunteered to be a flight mechanic air gunner and then the CO’d recommended for pilot training. I’d been down, had a selection board, came back there was a thing came out, “Would flight mechanic volunteer to change to flight engineer?’ And my friend did that. Changed to flight engineer and he was away, oh I had only just started my training when he was away and trained and we kept in touch. We always wrote and, and then he got, he brought the plane back from Germany and got a Distinguished Flying Medal when the pilot was killed. And I looked a bit surprised to see when he put it on his letterhead. He was still [unclear] DFM and then, I was just starting really. Just starting probably two or three years past Cambridge when I’d kept in touch as I say and I wrote to him and I got the letter back and it was just marked, “Return to Sender.” And it had been opened, got my address out and sent back and he, obviously the reason for that was that he hadn’t come back. And when we were at Lincoln I looked at the [pause] at the Memorial numbers and sure enough his name was on. So he, he’d actually gone on ops, it would only be a few weeks training at St Athans and he’d gone on ops and I hadn’t even finished, hadn’t even got down to flying training.
GT: So as a flight engineer he got on to ops pretty much straight away.
TF: Straightaway.
GT: He was.
TF: He didn’t do, didn’t do any flying training. Didn’t do any OTU or anything like that. Just go straight to a squadron.
GT: Do you think that saved your life then?
TF: Or possibly might have been to Heavy Conversion Unit.
GT: Do you, you consider then that because that would have been say perhaps a year and a half’s worth of the war if you didn’t choose flight engineer. Could that have saved your life too, do you think?
TF: It could have done. Yes. If I hadn’t, if I hadn’t picked the flight mechanic engineer and got recommended for pilot training if I hadn’t done that I would have automatically probably have gone with him and just been a flight engineer. Actually, I did wonder about changing when he went. And then I thought well look you’ve had this altered in your paybook from now I would say trade or category FME UT PNB and you’d also a bomb aimer and a pilot navigator were a higher category than a flight engineer and you got a better pay so I thought well, I’d better just let things go. But yes, it was a very lucky, lucky thing to happen.
GT: Yeah. Tom, you still have your logbook.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: It’s ok. So have you given a copy of this to the IBCC?
TF: No.
GT: Because I can arrange if that’s the case. If you have not then we can arrange for that.
TF: I, the, the museum up at Heathhall took a photostat copy of it.
GT: They might have that in their local files but the IBCC are very keen to, to be able to copy yours in a high resolution file and as a point of note for the recording Tom is showing me photographs of his crew both at the time of training and also later on in nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety something there.
TF: 1991.
GT: Yeah. In front of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight aircraft which looks like Coningsby.
TF: It is, yeah.
GT: Yeah. Coningsby. So, so Tom would you, would you like to also approve that copies of these photographs can also go to the IBCC?
TF: Yes. Yeah.
GT: Fabulous. Right.
TF: Went to, went to the first reunion we had was at Woodhall Spa which is just a few miles from Coningsby and had arranged that we would see the Battle of Britain of Britain Memorial Flight Lancaster and they’d also arranged that we would go in it. And we all went in and took up our respective positions. One in the rear turret, mid-upper turret. Me down in the bomb, in the bomb section and there was it seemed to me, I don’t know where they came from but there was an awful lot of people snapping photos of us in there and they said, ‘That’s the first time ever that we’ve ever had a complete crew come.’ They said, ‘Plenty of people come but never as a complete crew.’ So that was at, at Coningsby at our first reunion.
GT: So, when you left your crew how long did they stay together after that?
TF: Oh, it was a matter of days.
GT: Oh, it was. Ok. So, it wasn’t —
TF: Well, one, one went as a airfield control. Another one went in charge of a group of German prisoners to close an airfield down and transfer all, all the goods up to, to somewhere else. And apparently I gather, that he had only problem tracing two. And one was the mid-upper gunner. A Welsh boy. And he knew he was Welsh so he put something in the Cardiff, in the Cardiff newspaper and, but the boy himself didn’t see it but his ex-wife saw it and thought that sounds as if it could be Terry and told him. And he was very cagey about it. He was wondering [laughs] what the reason why he was ringing him up about.
GT: Fascinating. Well, Tom, I I think you have duly covered your career, your life your service very well and it’s been an honour and a pleasure to come and interview you today and I’m going to make sure that this copy gets to the IBCC by next week and I’m sure that you’ll receive some form of communication from them. So —
TF: Ah huh.
GT: But it’s, it’s been a great afternoon so thank you very much. We’re also going to get some photographs and —
TF: I might also add that we did get a little bit of a bit of a reward in as much that in nineteen, in 2005 was it the Lottery granted money for people to visit when they’d served anywhere abroad and at, I went to Canada. And then again in 2010.
GT: And you visited your, the previous Training Schools where you were.
TF: Yes, because it turned out that the Navigation School was now Toronto Airport.
GT: So that was pretty easy to go back and see the Commonwealth Training Scheme areas.
TF: And then we did another one in 2010. About seven years ago now, wasn’t it? Oh, we did another one and in this case they said you can take the, they would pay the cost for a carer to go as well. [unclear] asked if she would be a carer for us.
GT: So, have you been to the Bomber Command Memorial in London yet?
TF: Not in London.
GT: Ok.
TF: Just the one in Lincoln.
GT: So, you’ve been to Lincoln and you’ve seen the Spire. What do you think of the Spire?
TF: Well, it makes you realise the Lancaster’s wingspan is very, it’s quite wide. Yes its, its quite good. Actually, I thought the whole set up that they had at this opening ceremony had been very well thought out and was quite well, really well organised.
GT: And you are prepared and getting ready to go to the opening of the archives building, Chadwick Hall. And that will be early in 2018. Just coming up.
TF: I don’t, I wouldn’t know. I doubt if I’ll be at that time but I —
GT: Oh well, I can promise you Tom that your record that you’ve just been telling me today will be in the IBCC Archives and they’ll be, they’ll be honoured and thanking you very much for that. So, I think we can, we can safely say that I can now complete the interview with you, Tom.
TF: Ah huh.
GT: And thank you very much.
TF: Not at all.
GT: For your time. So, this was Thomas Fisher and I have been in the company of Diana Harrington and Julian McLennan and this is Glen Turner who has come to interview Tom today. My service was Royal New Zealand Air Force for thirty years as an armaments technician, so now secretary of 75 Squadron Association I am honoured and pleased to help out the IBCC with interviews of the Bomber Command crews from World War Two. Signing off. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Thomas Fisher
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFisherT170726, PFisherT1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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02:04:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Wales--Glamorgan
Description
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Thomas Fisher trained initially as a fitter in the RAF. When the Air Ministry announced that flight engineers were needed from the ranks of the ground mechanics he volunteered for training. The CO was surprised that he volunteered and asked him if it was only because he wanted to fly. If so he should apply to train as a pilot. Thomas didn’t have a school certificate but the CO encouraged his application anyway and Thomas began training. He enjoyed the flying but not having to do emergency manoeuvres. Initially, Thomas was working as a fitter for 92 Squadron at RAF Digby on Spitfires. He then was posted to 417 Squadron at RAF Charmy Down. He then was posted to 14 Group Headquarters at Inverness. He joined Bomber Command as a bomb aimer and was prepared to join Tiger Force.
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944-07-04
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
20 OTU
21 OTU
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
flight engineer
flight mechanic
ground crew
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operational Training Unit
RAF Digby
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF St Athan
Spitfire
Sunderland
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/792/10773/ADavisAW180116.2.mp3
6f54de70999539d29257311a60350c69
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Davis, Alan William
A W Davis
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alan William Davis (1922 - 2021, 425834 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 75 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Davis, AW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GT: This is Tuesday the 16th of January 2018, and I am at the home of Alan William Davis, born 25 July 1922, in Rangiora, New Zealand, RNZAF wireless operator/air gunner, NZ 425834, Warrant Officer, near Amberley, Christchurch, in New Zealand. Alan joined the RNZAF in 1942. He trained in Canada and joined 75 New Zealand Squadron at Mepal, in March 1945. He completed nine operations, three Manna drops, three Exodus and several Baedeker trips, then moving to Spilsby in July for Tiger Force training. Alan returned after war’s cessation and, to New Zealand, in December of 1945. Alan thank you for welcoming me into your home. Can you give me a little bit of your memories of why you wanted to join the Air Force and where you did your training?
AD: Well mainly I think I had the choice of either the Army or the Air Force, I decided to go in the Air Force, but I also did three months in the Army, beforehand.
GT: Where did you join up and where did you do your training in New Zealand?
AD: Went up to Ohakea for a start, in the Air Force Defence Unit, and then we went to Rotorua, to learn wireless, Morse Code and so forth. Then unfortunately I had to have my tonsils out and I didn’t go with the group that I was supposed to, to Canada, I didn’t go till three months later. So I only ever saw one of the original group I was with, in England.
GT: Whereabouts did you do your training in Canada?
AD: Calgary and then we went to Mossbank, for gunnery.
GT: So you did a mixture of the wireless operator and gunnery training, and effectively you -
AD: Yes. The Bolingbrokes and such like.
GT: Became a wireless operator. What was the Bolingbroke like?
AD: Oh, they weren’t bad, course everything was covered in snow then. It was quite interesting, I was quite good at shooting.
GT: Excellent. Did you get excellent?
AD: Well I come third out of about four hundred with competition with all different weapons, machine guns and revolvers and some others.
GT: And then once you’d completed your training, you sailed across the Atlantic to England. Eventful? Did you, any German submarines around?
AD: No, the boat went on its own, it wasn’t in a convoy and I was on the rocket guns. What I was supposed to do I don’t know, [chuckle] but they got me on those and we arrived. It was Isle de France, the boat we went on. Don’t know what happened to it later on, I think it burnt, caught fire in the harbour somewhere.
GT: And that was a luxurious cruise ship, wasn’t it. When you arrived in England they put you on to training units and you crewed up, that was -
AD: No, they didn’t, we went down to Brighton, and was there for a while and then they shipped us up to the North East coast of England, I can’t just remember the place, because D-Day was, getting ready for that. When we come back, everyone, and we crewed up and went to Westcott and Oakley and Bottesford for conversion.
GT: Yep. Your log book here has you at 11 OTU in the July and August, September of 1944. Can you remember when you crewed up? How did you meet up with your skipper and your other?
AD: Oh, we were just lining up there and the captain was sort of, the skipper was more or less picking the chaps he wanted. We had about one, two, three, four; started from the original one, the other three, the flight engineer, the bomb aimer - we were a bit hard on bomb aimers - ended up four of ‘em, and the mid upper gunner, he was changed.
GT: I see you did all your training on Wellington aircraft here, and your final tally and summary at Oakley, Westcott and 11 OTU all together, a total of eighty seven hours there. So from there you moved on to your Heavy Conversion Unit, so can you tell us a little bit about your movement to Lancasters from there?
AD: Yes. The first time we went up in Lancaster with the instructor, I looked out the left hand side and I saw two engines stopped. I looked out the other side and there was another one stopped: was flying on one engine! Saying don’t be worried, it was, still fly on one engine! Bit nervous for a start. [Chuckle]
GT: The pilot was stopping an engine for?
AD: Yes, just more or less showing our pilot that the plane was quite safe on one engine.
GT: And that was at Bottesford, 1668 HCW, HCU RAF Bottesford. And you were there from the beginning of December ’44 until the end of February ’45.
AD: Yeah. About six weeks longer than we should have been because bomb aimer trouble, one didn’t return.
GT: He went away on leave and didn’t come back.
AD: No. Waited round for weeks, they gave us a chap who’d already done a tour and he absolutely had the DT’s. He was shaking and hard to understand so after a while they took him off, gave us another one, he was quite good and then he got wounded on our fifth bombing trip, had to replace him.
GT: Gosh. From your HCU did you have a choice of where you were going to go? What squadron?
AD: No, they just, I can’t remember, I think we just went to 75.
GT: And your first flight, and first indeed operation, was on the 6th of March,1945.
AD: Wing Commander [indecipherable].
GT: Wing Commander [indecipherable] was your skipper, as wireless op, you finished and did there all the trips as a wireless op I see. So your first war op was the oil refineries at Salzbergen. Any trips of yours eventful were they?
AD: Yes. The fifth one where the bomb aimer was wounded, we lost, we had a bit of problems with the engine, wouldn’t hold, the inside left engine wouldn’t hold its revs. We went to briefing and the flight engineer said we’d take the, the engineer in charge or something said we’d take the spare aircraft. And when they finished briefing they said well they changed all the plugs on the original plane on the offending engine, so we took it. After we got over the English Channel a bit it started to misbehave, I thought was going to jump off the wing it was jumping around that much. Was misfiring so we had to feather it and then we had a discussion amongst the crew whether we’d drop our bombs and go back home or carry on, so we all agreed to carry on, but of course had to find our own way to the target, cause we couldn’t keep up with the others.
GT: It was successful in the end?
AD: [Indecipherable] Of course we got shot up, we saw three of our own planes shot down, we didn’t realise they were our squadron, till after we got home. One of the crews shared our hut. Some of them parachuted, pilot and the flight engineer they were down, watched it go all the way. Wasn’t on fire, it wasn’t smoking, it was just going like that, all the way down.
GT: Weaving from side to side.
AD: Went down. Splash of flame. Counted them as they jumped, there was five of them got out. There was one of them got there ready to jump and realised he had his parachute.
GT: What was the normal procedure if the crew was lost or missing? Did someone come in and collect all their belongings?
AD: Yes, it happened to us twice. The other crew, they crashed in training at Bottesford, and we heard them talking on the intercom, you know, like the what’you call it? The?
GT: Control tower?
AD: Control Tower, yeah. Evidently he wasn’t, the pilot wasn’t too good at night vision; he was trying to land too high. They told him to go round again. We got in and landed and were standing out on the runway waiting for the truck, saw this, saw this great flash of flame about three mile away, then the boom! When we got back to our hut the service police were there getting all their belongings.
GT: Just a training flight, too. So you completed nine war ops in total. Was any one of them outstanding in your mind?
AD: Just that one where we got shot up.
GT: What were you shot up by?
AD: Anti aircraft. Crack! Crack! Boy!
GT: You remember it.
AD: I remember it, getting closer and closer, you could hear them. When we went there we didn’t think we’d get through there were that many puffs of smoke about our height, there’d be be an odd one or two, all wee bit higher and off a bit, but boy, they were, they were thick.
GT: So you also carried out, and were part of, Operation Manna and were you briefed on what that was all about and what was to happen when you got there?
AD: The food dropping? We probably were but I can’t remember anything about it, really. Just except the flying there.
GT: And you were told that the Germans wouldn’t be shooting at you at all?
AD: Well, you don’t want take any risk, we’re supposed to come in at certain heights and get out soon as we dropped it, no buggering around, but we went down to Italy, I’ll tell you about that. Lucky we’re here!
GT: Oh well tell us about this trip, the trip to Italy, which one was that?
AD: [Laugh] No. That was after the war!
GT: Okay, so the Operation Manna stuff, you were told later on that it was to save the starving Dutch people.
AD Yes, we probably knew from the beginning, yes. Of course a lot of the country was flooded: the Germans opened the dykes and that. We’d see these dykes going along and just dirty water covering all over, see people walking along the banks.
GT: You predominantly did day sorties and I see you did one night.
AD: We did a pre run of it.
GT: What was the difference for you? As a wireless operator, no difference between day and night, did it matter?
AD: Well night was a bit creepy, see a few things going past your window. Night time, cause day time have a good look.
GT: Time to get out the way. Did you have any aircraft above you, that could have dropped a bomb through you or anything?
AD: No, the strange thing about those two planes just out from us, cause what happened, the, when we couldn’t keep up with the squadron, we just went, because DH bombing we just went straight to the target and evidently the others, they were a bit ahead of their time, so they did a dog leg and they come in like that, we were here and couldn’t actually see their letters, see what was going on, one just dropped his bombs, beautiful line! How the hell he got them in line, you know, just the little one, big cookie on top, and the next thing they disappeared and the plane just completely blew to pieces, just like confetti. And then just a short while afterwards, another one, the engine dropped out of. The engineer was [indecipherable] I remember calling out the rest of them and saying the propeller was still going round, suppose they hadn’t used up the fuel yet, then the wing come off and down he went, and then shortly afterwards that other one started going like that and they were jumping out of it.
GT: And you said they were all 75 Squadron.
AD: Yeah. Three of them. That book I’ve got there shows that the planes above dropped [indecipherable] there dropped the bombs must of went off when got hit by a shell or what, cause bombs, they’ll explode just dropped out of a bomb bay on the ground! Real disaster one place there, three people, blew the plane to pieces and about nine others were destroyed.
GT: Was this at Mepal?
AD: No, no another aerodrome.
GT: You’d been told about it?
AD: No, read about it recent.
GT: It certainly happened. Now, you also managed to do some prisoner repatriation.
AD: Yes, we did four of those.
GT: Guys were pretty pleased to see you, weren’t they.
AD: Yeah, Juvencourt I thought, I actually bought a map in Paris when we were there this last time, so I could find out where Juvencourt was, I just thought it was not far inland, but it’s quite a far way, but I can’t find the map.
GT: Short way by aircraft, isn’t it. Just a point of note, the supply dropping sorties, your aircraft did, your crew did: one was Rotterdam and two was The Hague. And then from there you did a mixture of Juvencourt to Tangmere, and also the Baedekers, the post mortems, and that bit of Army co-op bit of variation. What was the Baedekers about?
AD: Oh, they used to go up the Ruhr valley, take the Air Ministry staff and that, most of them looked out the window to start then a bit seasick [chuckle] and then flight engineer used to carry a tin, treacle tin and he called it the tin-rin-tin-shitin. Remember, I don’t know whether you remember just about the wartime there was a thing on the radio about Rintin this wonder dog, that’s how he got the name and he was busy passing that between the different people. [laugh]
GT: Crazy, well your last time on 75 New Zealand Squadron was pretty much the end of July. Your total hours by day were over twenty two hours there, so you did a fair bit towards the end there, especially when there were so many crews vying for flying wasn’t there, must have had so many there, and obviously the war in Europe had finished so you were then shifted to Spilsby.
AD: Well we had to volunteer, an all New Zealand Squadron.
GT: British, Australians and Canadians left.
AD: Yep. Mac MacDonald, Flight Lieutenant.
GT: So you volunteered for that; you were asked directly?
AD: Yes, volunteered for it.
GT: Okay, so your first flight, Lancaster-wise, from Spilsby, 3rd of August, mixture of cross country and formation flying and you also managed a couple of flights here, three at least, in the new Lincolns, the white Lincolns, 75 New Zealand Squadron had three delivered to them by the time VJ Day came around so, they were taking them out to the Asian theatre. What was the Lincolns like compared to the Lancasters?
AD: Well, it was quite longer wingspan, wings, when it was flying about like that, when it was [indecipherable] it was the Lancaster that stayed [indecipherable].
GT: Was the wireless equipment upgraded for the Lincoln?
AD: Nah, I think it was much the same.
GT: Didn’t affect you much between the two types of aircraft.
AD: I think we were the last ones to fly, 75 Squadron in England. [Indecipherable] and us, we went down to farewell the Troop ship.
GT: The Andes?
AD: Andes. Actually it’s in one of those things there: we’re the bottom one.
GT: You’re the second plane in that picture?
AD: If I hadn’t have gone with our crew I would have gone with [indecipherable] because he asked me to be his wireless operator, but unfortunately we went to Berlin and the same thing happened: our crews went. So I went with our crew.
GT: So that was your last flight was 23rd September 1945 in the Lincoln, and it was AA-A, based Southampton, that was for the Andes overflight. But I see further up here just before that, on the 19th of September you talked about the base to Bari in Italy trip.
AD: Nearly ended up in disaster!
GT: So what was that about?
AD: Well, we saw this [indecipherable] farmer ploughing with two horses, so dived on them, I can see the old farmer now, shaking his fist, and he was hanging on to the reins, and the horses went faster and faster and finally they bolted. He went along low flying in the countryside, big high tension lines there and he was having a discussion with the flight engineer and he saying well we’ll go over these or will we go under and last moment he pulled up and hit one of the wires. Didn’t believe us for a start, I saw it, cause I saw the inflight and the rear gunner said yes, you’ve cut them. But, so then they started wondering what the hell they were going to tell the engineering staff because the propeller would have a mark on it. Sure enough, when we landed there was quite a gouge out of one propeller blade it the long bit. Lucky it wasn’t the big heavy cables, was the lighter ones we hit.
GT: Brought you down.
AD: It would have brought us down.
GT: Well, so that pretty much is, was the end of your flying of World War Two there.
AD: I think that was the last flight of 75 Squadron in England.
GT: It would have been.
AD: Almost certain it was.
GT: 23rd of September 1945.
AD: We left the next day I think. We broke up the next day or something.
GT: You left everything sitting at Spilsby.
AD: Pardon?
GT: Left all the aircraft sitting around at Spilsby.
AD: Yes, well, shame, specially all those herring gutted Lancasters they used to carry those twenty two thousand pound bombs. One place, I think it was Spilsby, there was quite a few of them there.
GT: Grand Slams.
AD: Yeah. All they were real odd looking cause they had no bomb doors, they just sort of come up and went along and down.
GT: You guys weren’t flying those.
AD: No.
GT: They were just sitting there.
AD: Yep.
GT: 100 Squadron, 207 Squadron were flying from there. The Spilsby Monument, Memorial, has a mention of an armament crew that were blown up at the bomb dump there. Did that happen when you were there? But, so how did you get back to New Zealand then if the Andes had already gone? Did they put you on another ship?
AD: Yeah, Montcalm, there’s a photo down the bedroom of it. It did a sort of odd course, it brought quite a few British soldiers out to Suez and then it went back to Taranto in Italy, I thought it unloaded them there, or did something, pick some others up and then come back to Suez and then went through the canal, you know, picked up quite a few New Zealand soldiers on the other side.
GT: And when you got back to New Zealand did you demob straight away or you on the Reserve?
AD: Yes, we just went off, well I went on leave. Reserve for several years.
GT: You weren’t called up then?
AD: No, didn’t get called up.
GT: And you’ve been a farmer all your life, is that right?
AD: Actually I declined any assistance and filled in the form on the ship there, and then one of my, brother-in-law said you bloody fool fella, so I applied and I went to about four or five farms and finally found this place.
GT: How many acres did you have in the end?
AD: Five, it was five hundred and forty five. Another chap on, he went away on the ship and came back on the same ship as I did, Harry Denton, I didn’t know him then, he got the other half.
GT: So how many sheep and cattle were you grazing on a that kind of size?
AD: Oh, I had over a thousand sheep. I had up to two and a half thousand at one stage and then we had quite a lot of cattle and calves. Interesting reading through my old diaries, see I used to keep diaries.
GT: How old will you be next birthday?
AD: I’ll be ninety six.
GT: Ninety six, ninety seven, ninety six?
AD: Or more, I don’t know, it’s a bugger since my legs have started going on me, I started wearing that, up there, oh there, that riding helmet, save my head a bit [indecipherable] you feel a bit of a flash sometimes, just lasts a moment or two.
GT: So at your grand age now, you’re still mucking about on the farm and here we are in Amberley, New Zealand in mid January and the temperatures are rising to close to thirty degrees Celsius, which is pretty wicked here this time of year in New Zealand.
AD: Yes, I know.
GT: Alan, it’s a pleasure again catching up with you and thanks very much for talking to me and this will, an interview going to the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archives and you’re certainly a part of Bomber Command and you having completed operations, Baedekers, Mannas and Exoduses, you did the whole bunch really, that was pretty awesome.
AD: I had quite a good career, lucky with, we did crash a Wellington, went off the runway into a ditch, petrol running everywhere and got out at t a hell of ate and I got into trouble because I didn’t grab the secret code books, well I couldn’t see, was pitch dark and the poor erk that was riding a bike round the perimeter, he was the only person I’ve ever seen who was incoherent, he was babbling away and couldn’t hear a word, didn’t know what he was saying, we damn near run over him! [Laughter] Poor Bugger! Horse galloping round in the paddock next to him.
GT: No regrets, you served your King and your country and you were happy in the end to, with your achievements.
AD: I had a great experience. I’ve been back and visited two of the crew; last time I went back I couldn’t find any of them, rear gunner, Scott, and the navigator. Harry Denton, up here, when he was up here, with some of his crew; I think one of his crew got the VC! And also the, some of the Germans that shot him down, they come out here too and visit him. I’m not too sure whether I met them or not. I met some of the, his crew. Come out here twice I think.
GT: You’re former enemies and you’ve become friends, and that’s the case through most of time.
AD: I’ve been to Germany and had a look at the, some of the wartime graves there. Actually the chap who was supposed to inherit this farm, Lawrence Croft, he was in the Air Force too. I think he got blown out of the bomb aimer’s, I think it was him. I think also one of the wife’s cousins, Albert Chipping, I think he got blown out too.
GT: That was the thing, many of these folk came back to New Zealand and went straight back into working and many of the folk that were still here didn’t know anything of what you guys went through. Did you find that a big problem?
AD: Not really, no.
GT: The folk that you dealt with, worked with.
AD: I suppose it was still a job we had to do. Used to go down at night, have our pints.
GT: What were the, sorry, I meant to ask, what were the pubs around Mepal that you liked?
AD: Oh yeah. We stopped at one there.
GT: Chequers?
AD: Oh Chequers, we used to go to that one, Sutton, and then there used to be, one old Percy had it, at Haddenham, cause there was Haddenham up here, then Sutton here and Mepal over here and there was there used to be a road connecting them, course they closed it when the aerodrome, when the runway went across it.
GT: And you had Witchford.
AD: Quite a bit different now, bit hard to find the landmarks.
GT: Well Mepal Gardens have a Memorial for 75 New Zealand Squadron there.
AD: Yeah, they shifted it from where they actually put it, when, in 1978 when they dedicated it, shifted to another.
GT: Well cared for little garden, that’s for sure.
AD: Pardon?
GT: It’s a well cared for little garden. And 75 Squadron Association in the UK, friends, they hold a reunion twice a year right there, so all your colleagues are well remembered. Okay Alan, let’s sign off. I thank you very much for your interview, your thoughts, your memories and thank you for your service for your King and your country, and your sacrifice. Thank you very much.
AD: One of the lucky ones and it was an experience.
GT: Definitely lucky. Thank you, Alan.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alan William Davis
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADavisAW180116
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:31:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Alan Davis joined the RNZAF towards the end of the war, training in Canada as a wireless operator and air gunner. He returned to the UK and after conversion to Lancasters was posted to 75 New Zealand Squadron. Alan tells of his training, crew changes and loss of colleagues as well as different operation and experiences. After the war he returned home and settled as a farmer, sometimes returning overseas and seeing old friends.
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
France
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
France--Île-de-France
France--Reims Region
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
11 OTU
1668 HCU
75 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bottesford
RAF Mepal
RAF Oakley
RAF Spilsby
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/763/10760/ACunninghamAB171104.1.mp3
9f16a8efcb1e7748a3ad23a726fc2d16
Dublin Core
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Title
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Cunningham, Bruce
Argyle Bruce Cunningham
A B Cunningham
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bruce Cunningham (1920 - 2020, 424433 Royal New Zealand Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 514 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cunningham, AB
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GT: It is the 4th of November 2017 and today I’m interviewing Mr Argyle Bruce Cunningham at his residence in [long beep] in Kilbirnie, Wellington, New Zealand. With me is the New Zealand Returned Servicemen’s Welfare Advisor Kaye Pointon. And Kaye has introduced me to Bruce, Bruce Chapman err Bruce Cunningham and Bruce has agreed that I can interview him today for the IBCC Digital Archives. Mr Argyle Bruce Cunningham was a pilot for the Royal New Zealand Air Force, and he flew on 514 Squadron as a pilot in Bomber Command, England. So, Bruce can you please tell me a little bit about where you were born and when and therefore your age? And how you got to join the New Zealand Air Force. Please.
BC: I was, I was born in Marsden. 1920. And then I, I left school when I was thirteen and a half. I worked for a firm for four or five years and then I decided to go back to school. To short trousers and a school cap and so forth. Taken two years instead of three. When I was, the last year I was at school the school children came back from the town saying the head prefect’s name’s in the ballot. And the principal called me in and said, ‘I believe your name’s in the ballot. I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well you’re not going on any ballot. You’re sitting matriculation.’ He used to be a lieutenant colonel in the army. But just after I sat I did go into the Territorials and I spent my time digging holes in the sand and so forth. And I decided that there are other better things to do than that so I decided that I would join the, something else. I then applied. Made enquiries about the Navy. And then on second thoughts I thought no. I’d spend years being seasick so I’d better go in to the air force. So, off I went into the air force. Up at Rosewood they said, ‘We’re short in the course before. Is there anybody, would anybody like to go out of this place in half time?’ And I thought — no. I’ll leave that to the boys who’ve got all the brains. But they didn’t do it that way. They set some navigation exercises and it was decided on your results on those whether you went out of Rosewood in half time or not. And I scored, believe me it was 98.5 or something. So I was assisted to get out of the place. But I wanted to get out because I’d developed impetigo and then I used to go to the doctors. [unclear] they’d paint me with green paint. They ran out of green paint and started painting me purple. So I walked around Rosewood looking like a Red Indian looking for my lecture places which had been changed. And I was very pleased to get out of Rosewood.
GT: So, so Bruce you, joining the air force they assigned you your service number of NZ424433.
BC: Yes.
GT: Is that correct?
BC: That’s right.
GT: So what, what did you go on to do then to end up being a pilot?
BC: Yes. I went down. First of all went to Bell Brock and New Plymouth and did eighty hours there on Tiger Moths. And then I went to Wigram and got my wings in Wigram. Not in Canada. I got my wings in Wigram.
GT: Yeah. What year was that please Bruce?
BC: That would be in [pause] was it ’43? Was it? It was ’43. I didn’t wait a long time to get into the air force. I was, I knew I had to go to a war but I wasn’t particularly keen on getting into the air straight away. It got to the stage where I waited far too long. In the finish I had to ring up Wellington and say, ‘Goodness gracious me. How much longer?’ But finally I got in and I went to Wigram and got my wings. And then we had, we did the final leave and went up to Auckland and I thought I will probably get on a big boat. Walk up the stairs onto this boat that would be so big. But when I got there I got the impression that the boat was so small I walked down the thing instead of up. When we, before this, before the boat took off we were speaking to one boy on the staff there and then we were asking him about going to England by boat. And he said this is the third sister ship. The name was the Empire Grace, I think. And he said, ‘This is the third sister ship.’ And we said, ‘What about the other ships?’ ‘Well, they all went on their third trip. They were sunk.’ And I was, so of course someone asked the question, ‘What trip is this?’ Of course the answer was, ‘This is the third trip.’ [laughs] Well, as the lights of Auckland disappeared I thought well that’s the last you’ll see of her [laughs] But first of all we didn’t go straight to Panama. We went south. Went down the Southern Ocean and that. It had the largest consignment of cheese that had ever left New Zealand. And they’d built some bunks in it and took about fifteen air force crew over then. But then, and then we went to Panama and we had leave on Panama and we went into town. Pitch black. 10 o’clock the lights turned on all over the town and then to it. That was a big night in Panama for everybody. A strange place.
GT: So, how long did it take you to sail to England then Bruce? How long did it take you to get there?
BC: From memory I think it must have taken about five weeks. I can’t recall back then. I remember going across the Atlantic. We, we were on our own. We weren’t escorted. We got nearer to England and we had to do drills and all sorts of things. Quite a long way. German aeroplanes coming out to bomb us. We went out over the top of Ireland and down. Right down to Avonmouth where we finally disembarked.
GT: Was that Southampton?
BC: Avonmouth. Yeah.
GT: Ok.
BC: Yeah. Avonmouth.
GT: So once you got to England then where did they send you? What, what OTU and bases did you go to?
BC: Well, we went to, New Zealand troops in those days were sent to Bournemouth. It was very good at Bournemouth. But later on they decided to send us to Brighton which wasn’t so good. But Bournemouth was a lovely place. Also, my first introduction to Bournemouth was on Sunday afternoon a Focke Wulf came over from Germany and blasted the place. Sunday afternoon. And we were crouching down on the floor and I thought afterwards what’s the good of that? I remember they bombed a, a Bobbies café and a woman who used to watch us drilling every morning she stopped a bullet from that trip. They came over very low level and frightened everybody. Then I went to several stations flying Oxfords at that. And then after we finished Oxfords we then went on to Wellingtons. Flying Wellington. Wellington 1Cs.
GT: What station was that at Bruce? Can you remember?
BC: That was at OTU at Westcott. And to me I always look back and think that station was more, it was more dangerous being there than being on operations. The aeroplanes used to remind me of old, old rental car. If you got there you were lucky. The chance of getting there without a breakdown were pretty remote. And, and I had the diciest do ever in my life was at Westcott. And how I survived I’ll never know. But it is, it was a very dicey business Westcott. If you got out of Westcott there was a fair show you’d live. But most of New Zealanders must have gone through Westcott. Bomber Command. 11 OTU. And then I left that station with good marks, but boy was I ever lucky. I learned to listen. Never be first off in training. Never, never do that again. Never be first off. That’s because leave it for someone else to do the finding out. I took off and I wasn’t far up in the air before an aeroplane in the [pause] flew over the top of us and ruined all our radio equipment including the artificial horizon at night time. And then, and I couldn’t see the ‘drome. That was, we should never have taken off. So I had to do what I thought was a circuit. No artificial horizon. All that missing. Did a circuit and land only to find the runway was over there. So I do an overshoot. In those aeroplanes the 1C’s you didn’t do an overshoot in the middle of the day let alone at midnight. Green as the grass surviving then. So do another circuit. Just one. The runway’s over there. So I kept on doing these circuits. That’s right. I found out later on that they could hear me but I couldn’t hear them or the other way around. Something right. So they turned on lights to tell me where the front of the runway was. After all the lights all they did was lit up the air but I’ve forgotten the colour that I could see. And I, somehow or other made a landing. When I landed the official procedure was to ring up and say you’d landed. The whole damn ‘drome knew I’d landed but the RAF says you ring up and say you’ve landed. That’s what you did. So I picked up to ring up but my tongue wouldn’t work. My tongue wouldn’t work [laughs] and boy was I lucky to get down. But everybody else was sitting down there waiting for me to land. And that’s when I learned never be first off in future. Someone else had got to find out what the weather was like. But it wasn’t made any better by someone flying over the top of me ruining all my radio and [pause] and radio, and. I was lucky to get out of Westcott alive. After that I, they put me sent me off to fly Stirlings and Stirlings were very big and you were about twenty feet up in the air. And when you started to fly that you were never knew whether you were two feet above the ground or two feet under.
GT: So, so Bruce, was it at Westcott you formed up with your crew? Did you get crewed?
BC: At Westcott we signed up with five of them and subsequently we got the other two. But it was amazing you should mention that because how you got crewed up was a great way. It worked for some reason or other. It’s a thing that you wouldn’t want to do a second time. Like getting married. You’re just shoved into a room and something happened made you. And here you see I picked on a fellow who finished up boss or second boss of [unclear] of Great Britain. You could drop a bomb behind him and he wouldn’t shake. He was a wonderful fellow.
GT: Can you tell us their names please?
BC: Eh?
GT: Can you tell us their names?
BC: Yes. I could.
[pause]
GT: Bruce is opening his very well-worn diary. It’s an awesome piece of history.
BC: Incidentally, I drew that myself. I couldn’t do that now. The navigator was Bob Ramsay. The bomb aimer was Brailsford. Reg Brailsford. Radio operator Sergeant Stone. The rear gunner Sergeant Roberts and the mid-upper gunner Fred Brown. And then the engineer would have been [pause] But Roberts was a, he swore that we were shot down by another Lancaster. And he wouldn’t take no for an answer. I was just reading before you came in here how I went over to Wales after I came back from the war and Taff was in the same pew in the church that we’d had sat in before I went missing. And then he and his family told me that he wouldn’t budge. Budge from that.
[Telephone ringing. Recording paused]
KP: The war —
GT: Ok.
KP: Again.
GT: Right. I’ve just had to turn that off. That was Bruce’s daughter just ringing on the phone.
BC: Yeah.
GT: So, so, Bruce if, if we could —
BC: Go back to —
GT: If we could just go back to the point where —
BC: Fair enough.
GT: Now, you’ve just named your crew and I need to point out that Bruce has read all the names in his diary on pencil without glasses. So for a ninety six, ninety seven year old man that’s pretty awesome that you’re doing that without your, without any reading glasses. So, so Bruce, now you moved on to your Stirlings. Who else did you pick up for your Stirling crew? And where did you fly and learn to fly the Stirlings?
BC: I picked up the crew and joined up with the mid-upper gunner and the engineer, at [pause] I’ll tell, I’ll tell you later. It wasn’t the engineer that we were shot down with. That, our own engineer was injured.
GT: So you learned to fly the Stirling. What station were you at for that?
BC: I can’t remember. Stradishall was it?
GT: Stradishall. Could have done. Yeah. Ok.
BC: It’ll come to me.
GT: And that was, that was a Heavy Conversion Unit.
BC: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Do you remember the number of the HCU? 1685 maybe?
BC: I can get it if you want it.
GT: Alright. Yeah. Well, we can, we can add that in later on. That’s fair. So how long did you spend on Stirlings? And was it then you were sent to a Lancaster squadron was it?
BC: Yeah. When I was, they were going to, they were going to send us to 75 but then they changed their minds and sent us to 514 and we went on to Stirlings. Mark 2s. On to Mark 2 Lancasters. And they were a wonderful thing to change there. It reminded me of an old Vauxhall motor car. Mass produced but wonderful. And I was flying again, and I seemed to recall I went, the bloke said to me, ‘Well, you can go solo now.’ And I said, ‘I think I’d like one more circuit.’ And he said, ‘Ok,’ but even after that I think I was first off with all the [unclear] I took to those. They were good. They were very good indeed.
GT: So, you, you flew Lancaster Mark 2s. Did you ever fly a Merlin powered Lancaster?
BC: No. No. No. But when I got back to England after the war they were on Merlins. They built three hundred Hercules motored Mark 2 and it was the number three hundredth that we got out of.
GT: So, now how many sorties did you manage at 514? How long were you on 514?
BC: Oh, I was only there for a couple of months at that and I did about ten or a dozen at that. But I got about three weeks before the invasion we were sent over to France and Belgium and Holland to smash up all the railway yards and so forth.
GT: So, this was about May. June.
BC: Just before the invasion.
GT: 1944. Yeah.
BC: And that’s when I got caught.
GT: So what base were you at? What station were you at?
BC: Waterbeach.
GT: Waterbeach on 514.
BC: Yeah. Just out of Cambridge.
GT: Ok.
BC: Peacetime ‘drome and we [unclear].
GT: And, and you got to your twelfth or thirteenth operation.
BC: About ten or a dozen. I can’t remember. A couple of boomerangs. I can remember one boomerang. We got a half way across the North Sea. Sparks were coming out of the motor. And that’s not nice being up there in the middle of the night. You don’t know what to do or what’s going to happen. That was most annoying to have that. Another time we hadn’t been going long before we were sent in immediately after the Pathfinders which I thought was very good for a green crew. I was sat in the aeroplane, revving it up and a great big magneto drop. And I tried all I could do to clear that magneto run but I couldn’t do it. So I had to turn the motors off and I called up. You weren’t allowed to speak just before you took off because they knew you were, people were listening to you in Germany. Call up, ‘M-Mother, engineer,’ and out came a squadron leader, ‘Start the motors up. You pilots are all the same.’ So [laughs] so started the motors up and he started to run the motors up. And he ran and he ran and he ran and my engineer was telling him the cylinder head temperatures were way above what it should be. And he kept on trying to clear this magneto drop and at first couldn’t do it at all. He had to turn the motors off. But he never apologised. Nowadays, of course you’d, you’d get stuck in to him but in those days you couldn’t start to, telling a squadron leader what to do or you’d be on the outer for some time.
GT: So what rank were you at Waterbeach?
BC: I was a, I was a, when that happened I was probably a flight sergeant. And you didn’t, you didn’t tell the squadron leader because — especially an English one.
GT: So on the sorties you did they were all night operations.
BC: Every one. Yeah.
GT: Every one. And did you manage to engage any night fighters? Do any corkscrewing? That kind of stuff.
BC: No. No. No. We didn’t. On the night we were shot down we were just left the target and then something came through the mid-upper. The, the starboard inner. If I had trouble with the aeroplane it was always the starboard inner. Always. And the starboard inner ran a lot of the things all over the aeroplane. That’s where the source of power came from. And I can remember the tracer bullets coming through like that. Power over the ground. And when I became a prisoner of war the interrogator was trying to find out all sort of things from me. He said, ‘You were shot down by flak.’ Now, I wasn’t shot down by flak. I was shot down by something in the air. And Taffy reckoned it was another, another Lancaster but over the years I’ve seen all sorts of reasons why I was shot down. I was shot down by — somebody claimed me, flying a Focke Wulf. Another one claimed me, flying I think it was a 109. And somebody else claimed me. It was the old story. Someone was trying to jack up their shooting downs and they were all claiming me.
GT: Enemy kills. So, so you saw tracer coming through your aircraft.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Straight and level. Or —
BC: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Horizontal and level.
BC: Yeah. It come from the back. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. So could it have been machine guns or cannons?
BC: Yeah. It couldn’t have been anything from the ground.
GT: Ok. But the cannons were a lot larger mass —
BC: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Of incendiary coming through. Whereas the bullets, 303s in calibre are smaller.
BC: The poor, the poor rear gunner. He he he was one of three who got home. Managed to get home. And he went on operations again. First operation with a pilot called Gilchrist. Flight Sergeant Gilchrist. Blown to smithereens. And that —
KP: It’s ok [pause] It’s alright. Keep talking. Glen just went to answer the door.
BC: Who was that? Who was that? Yeah. He was blown to smithereens. Do you know what it was? Bombs from a Lancaster up above him. Poor old chap. He was coming out to live in New Zealand after the war. But he, he used to be a, well he was an orphan. And the week before, the Sunday before he was shot down I was over Wales. I went to this small church in Blaenau Ffestiniog. And I said to Taffy after the service, ‘Taffy, that preacher was talking about you and me in your lingo. What was he saying?’ He said. ‘Yeah, he was.’ Yeah.
GT: Bruce, can you describe the night you were shot down then? That was about your twelfth. On your twelfth operation thereabouts you were saying. So, how? And you described that you were shot down possibly by enemy aircraft. More than likely. So, so what happened then? Did the crew bale out? Run us through what happened.
BC: They, I — the thing was on fire and the fire was spreading. I asked the engineer to push the graviner switch in. I’m not sure what happened after that. I think he, he was a bit worried that after the war too he was in England. He was an Englishman. He went up to Lincoln and sat in the aircraft to try and recall had happened on the night. He was very worried about it. And I can remember a friend of mine connected with gliding in England and he wrote and said, “I see your name in the “Aeroplane” or “Flypast” or something in England. And this is what it said — ”. And I said, ‘Well, that’s wrong. That’s not true.’ My mid-upper gunner in Adelaide, he read it too. He said, ‘I’m not putting up with that.’ So he started looking for him in Adelaide. That took him a day. He found this bloke. He said, ‘You’d better retract that mate. It’s not good what you said in that.’ But then —
GT: So the graviner you mentioned there. The graviner switches.
BC: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: The graviners were the fire extinguishers. Is that right?
BC: I don’t know what happened about that. What he did about the graviner switches but on one trip we went to Karlsruhe. We went to the briefing and, you know sort of from memory the Met man waved his hand from Spain to Sweden and said, ‘There’s a cold front there. It’ll be gone when you get there.’ Of course the damn cold thing wasn’t gone at all. There was a cold front as soon as we got into France and we spent most of the time flying to Karlsruhe in, in, in ice and so forth. I see on that something happened a few minutes ago when there was no stuff on the wings to stop the icing. And we were flying in pitch black and then bang. What had happened is ice came off the propeller through the Perspex and laid the engineer out. He got up to have a look around and so help me another lot came through and hit him and he finished up in hospital. They thought he was going to lose his sight, but he didn’t lose his sight. He certainly wasn’t a POW either. He got out. We got another engineer who was a, who was a, whose pilot was in hospital. I think they shifted him from ‘drome to ‘drome and they came cropper on a motorbike and the pilot finished up in hospital. But then —
GT: So, when, when you gave the order to bale out once the aircraft was on fire.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Was that how it worked?
BC: How I got out I don’t know because I said to the engineer, put my parachute, ‘Get my parachute off the ground.’ It annoyed me. The RAF did something I didn’t like. They took pilot type parachutes off us. ‘Chutes that you sat on. And gave you an observer type which you put down on the floor behind the seat. Now, that’s not good enough. But I had to say to this engineer, ‘Get me my parachute.’ So, he gets the parachute and plops it down on my knee. I said, ‘That’s no good. Put it on hooks will you.’ I’ve got, all the trims for the aeroplane are gone. And you’re holding a Lancaster there with no trim. You’ve got a problem. Your feet hard down and you’re not holding the stick like, you’re holding the stick like, like — the minute you took your hand off the aeroplane started to turn over.
GT: Yeah.
BC: Now, I knew, I knew that blokes that were near me had got out but I wasn’t sure about the two at the back. And I spent some time sitting there ringing them up saying, ‘Are you there? Can you hear me?’ They never did answer. One of them afterwards, I said to him after the war. ‘You didn’t tell me you were going. I sat here for some time in a burning aeroplane while you didn’t tell me.’ ‘Oh yes I did.’ I didn’t, no you didn’t [laughs] But he, he got hit by the tail plane when he was getting out so he had that then. And of course then after after they’d all gone there was one hook on this parachute I had to put on myself and I couldn’t spare any hand. I had to put the thing on otherwise the parachute wouldn’t work. And of course the minute I get out of the seat the aeroplane started to roll over. Now, to get out I had to virtually dive underneath the dashboard. There’s a small hole which is not as, everybody acknowledged it wasn’t big enough. Now, to get through that hole and turn the aeroplane at 1 o’clock in the morning you’re pretty lucky to get out. I think it was a jolly good dive, never mind that.
GT: So you got out the hatch in the nose. In the floor of the aircraft.
BC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when I got down a very stupid thought passed my mind and people can’t understand how it did but I didn’t understand it either and I was on the roof of this place, two storied roof looking up. At that stage we weren’t flying high. Five, six, seven or eight thousand feet only. And I could see the first flying home and I said to myself, ‘What the heck am I doing here when all those blokes are going home for eggs and bacon?’ And down the west coast of New Zealand they seem to enjoy that crack.
GT: Yeah. Did you lose many when you were on the squadron? Any. Many aircraft?
BC: Yeah.
GT: Had you lost quite a few as a squadron?
BC: No. All go on time.
GT: So, when, when you managed to get out of the aircraft how did you pull your parachute? You had a rip cord. A handle.
BC: A ripcord. Yeah.
GT: You managed to find —
BC: I can remember a friend of mine. I went all through the air force with him and then he got crewed up and then he went on his second dickie. You know what a second dickie is?
GT: I know but please tell people.
BC: He, he went with an experienced crew and the whole lot of them killed on the first trip. That, that was rather shaking. Ken Drummond from Lower Hutt. But then his crew crewed up with another Englishman who wanted his crew to salute him every day. And Ken, Ken’s navigator was a the fellow with some Maori blood in him and he took this pilot aside and sort of put him right. But they finished a tour. They were very lucky. They finished a tour. Yeah.
GT: Fascinating. Ok. So you managed to get your parachute open. And did you manage to steer yourself anywhere? Could you see where you were going to land?
BC: No.
GT: Or was it just pot luck that you ended up on top of a house?
BC: It was completely black. So I suppose you couldn’t see where you were landing that was probably a good thing. But I sat on the top of this roof. It was a small building with a very, very steep roof and the parachute was caught over a chimney otherwise I might have slid off the roof. And I heard a story after, after the war that I wouldn’t be, I refused to come down off the roof. Where they got that story I’m daft if I know that. But what would I want to refuse for? But finally they got me down me down through a trap door in the roof. Two stories up. And so help me there was a, oh must have been at least a dozen or eighteen young Germans and one rope. I used my French for the first time in my life. The only time I ever used my French. I wanted to find out had the aeroplane landed on houses or in the fields. I can remember that much French. I found out the aeroplane had landed in fields. That’s how I knew that I hadn’t killed anybody.
GT: So, where, where did you crash and land please?
BC: Where did I crash? I landed at a place called Rixensart at about sou’ southeast of Brussels. I always thought it was a pub I’d landed on. And I thought it was quite strange that I should land on a pub and be a teetotaller [laughs] Yeah. But it wasn’t a pub. It was a café. And I went back in 1996 to collect my beer. But only to find out the place is now a bank and the Brussels newspaper thought that was highly funny. That I came back to collect and I couldn’t [laughs]
GT: So, the Germans immediately took you as a prisoner of war.
BC: Yeah.
GT: What happened then?
BC: I became a prisoner of war and I was — the next thing I went to Frankfurt for interrogation. And I was there for several days. I don’t know. It might have been a week. And they questioned you on — they were able to tell me more about my squadron than I ever knew myself. I learned a lot from that bloke. And he surprised. He threw, he threw across the table a photograph of a Mosquito aeroplane and he said, ‘See that aeroplane?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘I flew that yesterday.’ And I said, ‘Yeah?’ ‘Yeah. What a wonderful aeroplane,’ he said, ‘Pity you can’t make more of them.’ I must have said, ‘Can’t we make more of them?’ He said, ‘No. They’re made of wood.’ And then I suppose he was a, he might have been a pilot who was resting or something and that’s they were giving him a job while he was resting. But I can remember seeing marks on the wall that people had made in there with thumbnail and fingernail. And that was the number of days they’d spent there before they got out. I can remember being on the Frankfurt Railway Station. There was a German corporal looking after about a half a dozen of us. And while we were on the station there was an air raid. And of course everybody in Frankfurt decided they’d get in to the railway station to be safe. And of course the crowd got bigger and bigger and it got more closer and closer to us. And this poor little German corporal he was dead scared that the public might tear us apart and he’d be responsible. I can remember him flapping good and hard at that. He might have been in trouble but then after we left there we were put in these sort of cattle trucks and then began the long, long trip across. Across Germany to, to Sagan. Which now is back in Polish hands. But, but it was a long, long trip and it was terrible. Terrible. I suppose we were lucky.
GT: You, you were interviewed by the Luftwaffe or by the Nazis? Or Gestapo.
BC: The Luftwaffe. Yeah.
GT: You think that was a lucky —
BC: When, when I — on my first trip the squadron said to me, the squadron commander said, ‘We’re going to Berlin tonight. If you don’t want to go just say so. No questions will be asked if you say no, that you don’t want to go.’ But that. Who? Who would want to, not want to go he said. Off we go to Berlin. And I can remember the next morning on the newspapers in England. Big headline, “RAF fools German defences.” The RAF didn’t know where it was that night. They sent out winds which were wrong. Someone going towards Berlin had to change and they, they didn’t fully accept the changes. They made some sort of amendment. And everybody of course got lost. And they went over Berlin. And then if you read in the book, “The Great Escape,” you’ll find they, they held up escaping because there was a raid on Berlin. That was my first trip. The worst Berlin trip during the whole of the war. Seventy three aeroplanes missing. So we all come back and we came back, slap bang in to the Ruhr and one of my crew said, ‘There’s more searchlights here than Berlin.’ Navigator said, ‘Oh, there’s darkness in between a couple of them.’ I said, ‘Mr Navigator, we’re flying, changing course. We’re flying due north.’ I flew due north whatever it was. And then turned west. We find out the next day some came out south of the Ruhr. And they didn’t know where they were that night. The winds got them all mucked up that was the last big trip they did on Berlin. They didn’t do any more. They couldn’t afford to lose, lose men like that. Seven in each aeroplane and seventy three aeroplanes missing. Although subsequently and I’ll always remember standing on the railway station at Waterbeach and, and I didn’t know at the time but that night they, they went to Nuremberg. And they lost ninety three in the air. That was the biggest loss of the war. I went on leave that morning otherwise I might have been there.
GT: So that would have been July 1944.
BC: That was at — no. That was before May. I went missing on the 11th of May. That was before then.
GT: Right. And the targets that you flew for what were they? Was it cities? Oil refineries?
BC: No. They were mostly cities. At Cologne and then Berlin. Karlsruhe. Just before the invasion there were, there were two or three or four stockyards. Messing up a stockyard. After we were shot down they were doing daylight raids. They were, they were mighty costly too. Very costly. But I don’t know, at night time you just flew an aeroplane. You didn’t know what was around you. You couldn’t see. You might find, shake a bit and that was someone flying across your nose. You could have hit him. You wouldn’t know. In the daytime you must have been very frightened seeing people get trapped. Night time you couldn’t care because you didn’t know. But there must have been quite a few accidents in the air. People hitting each other. So.
GT: What was your standard bomb loads? Did you have incendiaries or the high explosive. Five hundred pounders? Cookies? What was your standard bomb load you took?
BC: My first trip was an eight thousand pounder. Fancy sending a green man like me with an eight thousand pounder. I took an eight thousand pounder at another aerodrome too. Used to take off with about six tons. And people say that Bomber Command didn’t do much of a job during the war but you try following six hundred people over a city. Each aeroplane’s got six tons. That’s three thousand tons of bombs on a flight. That must make some difference eh? Night after night. On my second dickie trip and that, that’s what’s on there. Always reminded me. That photo there that’s what Stuttgart looked like. It was more of a second dickie trip. They decided to go to Stuttgart and the previous losses was three aeroplanes so everybody decided it was about time they did an operation. The last time was only three. That night it was thirty two. And that was like daylight that night and that always reminds me of it.
GT: Now, your dickie trips. Did you get to know the captain and the crew very well or were you just told to stand there, shut up and don’t touch anything?
BC: Oh, the second dickie. Funny you should mention that. I’m looking around. Before we took off I’m looking around the aeroplane. Doing a sort of inspection. Casual inspection. And I see the rear gunner with an empty bottle of beer. I said, ‘What the hell is going on here mate?’ He said, ‘Oh for Lords sake don’t tell the captain.’ He said, ‘We drop one over the target.’ He said, ‘They make a terrible noise when they’re going through the air.’ But that, there’s a photo over there there’s one, there’s a book called Strike and, Strike and Sure, something like that.
GT: Yeah. Yeah. We’ll have a look at that later on.
BC: At the end. Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
BC: Now that fella’s grandfather was a rear gunner on that aeroplane which I flew.
GT: Ok.
BC: That —
GT: Yeah.
BC: That fellow who wrote that book on 514 Squadron. His grandfather was killed on an aeroplane. That one over there. Yeah.
GT: What was the side code numbers of your aircraft? Do you remember the numbers of your aircraft?
BC: Yeah. I’ve got them wrote out. JI something. 819 was one of them. And that. But I always had trouble with that, with the starboard inner. I mean one aeroplane we came home with had [pause] I was very fortunate when I got home. I was green, you know, a young pilot. Always was, the big shots won’t like my coming home early. I used to say, ‘If you’re only over the North Sea and you’ve got trouble go back home and you’ll come back tomorrow night. But if you go ahead you know you could kill yourself.’ But we got quite worried about sometimes about boomerang. But in that particular case, the flight commander’s aeroplane and they had to take the motor out. Yeah. Yeah. That pleased me [laughs]
GT: Just showed that —
BC: Yeah.
GT: Going back was the best option in this case. Yeah.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Definitely. So once you were a POW how, what happened then? You ended up in Sagan. Did you have a POW number assigned?
BC: Yeah. 5150 — my POW. I remember that number. When you got to the POW camp of course you had to be checked over. You might have been a ring-in. And that happened occasionally. Yeah. That’s true. I didn’t, I don’t think that happened in our camp but that did happen. And —
GT: So you’re meaning that there was a Nazi infiltrator. That they planted people in.
BC: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Wow. And they called them ring-ins.
BC: Eh?
GT: Did they call them ring-ins?
BC: No. I called them that. I was able to tell them about a bloke there who was on the squadron before. Before I got shot down. He was able to confirm that I was quite legitimate. But, but in that POW camp of course you, you had guards inside the camp and out and, and bringing their beautiful Alsatian dogs. But the goons were interesting people. The guards would come into the camp. I remember a fella coming into camp once and he’d lost his ticket to get out. Word went around, ‘If you’ve got his ticket will you bring it to the gate so he can get out’ [laughs]. Everybody had to take, wait a damned long time before they handed that in [laughs] That’s that. That’s oh, that, yeah up to all sorts of mischief when you were a POW. They were underneath you. Underneath the floor checking up on you and crawling out on the [unclear] and they call you out to check where the radios were. We had, they had one fella who was going to, he was in our room actually. I don’t know where he was going to escape from but he was going to. He had an escape all jacked up. But I think it was called off in the finish because of some reason or other. But he was going to go down the road and steal an aeroplane. Yeah. There was, next, next door to the prisoner of war camp there was a big paddock. I’m not sure whether they used that for sport or not but I do recall a very small Welsh pilot who was a, he was a lawyer. And he went into this paddock and picked up a shovel and and a handful of wood and an old hat and decided walk out. Unfortunately [laughs] unfortunately they got him before he got very far. And I’ll never forget watching Wing Commander Tuck. As they were walking this bloke out he was dropping all the escape gear on the ground and Wing Commander Tuck was picking it up [laughs] Yeah.
GT: So Bruce, you were mentioning a Wing Commander Tuck. So, as we were talking earlier you had some very famous aircrew with you in Sagan. So, can you tell us a little about the people that were with you? And in this case Wing Commander Stanford Tuck.
BC: Wing Commander Tuck. He was a prisoner of war there and he, he — we were in a section called Tuck’s Mansions which were infected with those what do you call them? Bedbugs. And you go to bed at night, wake up in the mornings and your back was all bloody. And they tried many times to get rid of these roaches but they were, they had long lives these roaches. Yeah. There was one fellow in there they reckon at one stage he he flew an aeroplane up the streets of Berlin. I don’t know whether it was up the streets or not but I’ve a feeling he was pretty low. He was a, he was a [pause] At the prisoner of war camp I had a good record for bowling and cricket and then I quite often tell people that I had a very good record for bowling and cricket. They said, ‘Oh yeah. You must have been amongst the Sunday afternoon players.’ And I said I don’t think the Captain of Western Australia would like to be called that [laughs] The blokes from the West Indies. They wouldn’t like to be called that. We had, in my room we had a book. A line book. If you shot a line it got, it got put into the line book. Tuck was in the room one day and he made the comment, ‘All my flight commanders have become group captains and so forth since I was shot down,’ into the line book. And another squadron leader was shooting the line that he said, ‘So I pulled up, I pulled up over the hill and the flak was so and so thick you could have walked on it.’ That’s that.
GT: So Stanford Tuck was stuck down in Europe.
BC: I think he was. Yeah.
GT: Ok. And he ended up in your, in the same POW camp was it? Did he become the POW senior commander or was that someone else?
BC: No. There was a group captain there with a, a little fella with a big moustache. A groupie. And he was, he was, he was the commander. There were, there were lots of wingcos in there. It was a camp, a compound that was started off they got the ringleaders of the escape and shot them to [unclear] . That was the focus of the [unclear] compound. After that it was prisoners from recent trips and of course they were Nuremberg and Leipzig and Berlin. They were pretty heavy losses so the, you know blokes who were prisoners of war quite often didn’t have very many operations. It wasn’t their fault. I can remember one night around about 12 o’clock at night the word came out we were going to be shifted out of the camp. So, we had to, we had to move out. And that was the worst winter in Germany for eighty years. Snow outside. Marching. We marched in the snow. And then it wasn’t very pleasant at all. At the — I can remember one, one stop at, my friend I was with, a boy from Eton he could speak any old language at all. He talked to some people who lived in Germany and we got a damned good meal. I’ll always remember. Kept going back to the great big room where we were housed. It was dark and we had to crawl across all these bodies to get to where we should have been and put our knees in people’s noses, and all sorts. Frightening thought. But then we, we got out. Finally got up to a place called [pause] sou’ southwest of Berlin. A very big camp and they shifted us out of [unclear] or Sagan because they didn’t, they didn’t want the Russians to get us. Otherwise there might be, might be thousands of aircrew available to, you know, send back to England to fly again. So they didn’t want the Russians to get us. So that’s why they marched us away. But they couldn’t stop. Once we got to up south of Berlin. Couldn’t stop it. The Russians came. And they became our captors. And the Yankie, the Yanks used to send up trucks every day to cart us away. The Russians wouldn’t let them go. Wouldn’t let them go away. So they wanted, they said, ‘We’ll take the wounded and sick away.’ The Russians wouldn’t allow that either. So, I don’t know what the Russians had in mind at all but they wouldn’t let, they wouldn’t let the Yanks take us away. It was at that stage that I said to Guy one day, ‘I’ve had this place. I’m getting out of it.’ That’s when it all started again. But we got caught. Yeah. I always remember finally we got to the, we got a correspondent in a jeep picked us up. Guy and I. After we escaped.
GT: I’m sorry. Guy who?
BC: Guy Pease. And he picked, the correspondent picked us up in a jeep and he took us west to a, to a, to some trucks manned by negro drivers who then decided to take us west. And we got to the old brew hut only to find the bridge was manned by Russians who said, ‘Take them back, boy. You’re not crossing here.’ So these negro drivers said, ‘Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.’ So they turned around to go further north to find another bridge — manned by Russians. Finally get a bridge that was manned by Yanks and we got across. And I’ll always remember those front line American troops putting chewing gum and toothbrushes in to my, our pocket. And you know for years later I wouldn’t have a word said against the Americans at all. Front line troops doing that. That’s that. Yes.
GT: Many of those Americans had liberated many of those camps and must have seen some awful sights so obviously they had great compassion for you and their own boys too. They had a lot of people in POW camps themselves didn’t they? The Americans.
BC: Yeah.
GT: So, they, they managed to get you across into allied lines. How did you get back to England? And when was that?
BC: That was in [pause] that must have been in May. And we were flown back from Brussels. I got flown back in a Dakota. But my rear, my mid-upper gunner he was a flight sergeant from another camp. He got to Brussels before me apparently and he, so help me got flown back by a 514 pilot. 514 aeroplane. Yeah. That’s that.
GT: So, we must, must go back then and ask you about your crew. So all your crew managed to bale out. That’s seven members.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Did they all survive the war and were they made POW or did they evade?
BC: Three of them. Three of them got back to England. The bomb aimer, the rear gunner and a radio operator. Apparently the radio operator got caught. He was two or three feet away from being caught, and he doesn’t know how he got away with it but he got home. Another two they were on the loose for six weeks before they got turned in by infiltrators. There was a group who helped prisoners of war get back but that group got infiltrated by somebody and he turned the whole damned lot in. And I think he left, he left that, what — he left somewhere but he came back. He came back and he worked in a pub in Paris. And some Yank spotted him and I think finally they got him and killed him in a chuck run. I’ve got a note of it somewhere. His name. He had several aliases. But that, but that was a bit frightening anyway to be turned in. And my navigator the Gestapo got him at night time. Very difficult if you’re — you know kids can give the giveaway you know. Get to school at that, ‘Oh we’ve got a man at home,’ and so forth. It could have been worse I suppose. When I was in Frankfurt the Germans made a comment that there are so many people on the roofs in the air force that so many people on the roofs they weren’t able to stop the population taking a, you know a pitchfork to people who landed. I suppose that happened occasionally. But in the, in the front of this book here I’ve got a note of the, the service when that, all those people were killed. Do you remember that Great Escape? Hitler said they were all to be shot. Somehow or other somebody else said half of them will be shot. At the service, I’ve got a note of the service there. Incidentally, a few years later, a few years ago I read some of that to the Girls Guides at the RSA laying of poppies at Karori. I read some of that. I don’t know. I don’t know what year it was but I’ve got a note of it here.
GT: Did you, did you know any of those prisoners of war that escaped and then were shot?
BC: No. No.
GT: You didn’t. Right.
BC: No. I didn’t know.
GT: So, when you managed to get back to England then when you flew back to England where did you land and what did they do? Did they —
BC: I can’t remember where we landed.
GT: Did they medically check you and then —
BC: I think they did. Yeah. We weren’t very, we weren’t in very good health but on the boat coming back it was a big boat. We, I think we won the tug of war on the boat and it always amazed me how underfed people like us could beat the rest of them. We didn’t cheat [laughs]
GT: And that was only a few months after the war finished. You managed to get a boat back to New Zealand.
BC: That’s right. Yeah. 1980 went to the Girl Guides. 1980.
GT: Wow. Yeah.
BC: Forty years ago.
GT: Goodness me.
BC: But you’d be very interested to read some of the comments from that.
GT: Thank you. I will do. Yeah. So, from, from that time when did you arrive back to New Zealand? Was it mid 1945? Something like that?
BC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And the —
BC: On the way back I think the Japanese tossed it in. I was on the boat when they tossed it in, I think.
GT: Ok. You were very lucky then.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Did you stay in the New Zealand Air Force or did you keep flying?
BC: No. I I got out. They asked me in Brussels why I didn’t stay in the air force and I made a comment and after I made it I was very frightened it would get back to my friends in the New Zealand. They said, ‘Why didn’t you stay in the air force?’ And I said, ‘I don’t want to be a taxi driver all my life.’ If that gets back to my friend in New Zealand. Of course I had a lot to do in aviation after the war.
GT: So then please tell us about that because once you arrived back did you take up a new trade? Did you carry on flying? What? Please tell us what you did there Bruce.
BC: When I came home from the war I [laughs] When I came home from the war I went to the powers that be and I said, ‘I want a bursary to go to university.’ They said, ‘What do you want to do?’ I said, ‘Commerce.’ They said, ‘There’s no bursaries for Commerce.’ It was in the rehab, opposite, upstairs opposite [unclear] and they said there’s no. I said, ‘I’m not interested in what you say. I want a bursary to go back. The war has ruined my life. I went back to school and I didn’t go back for nothing. I want a bursary.’ They said, ‘You’re not having it.’ I said, ‘I think you might be wrong mate,’ and I said, ‘Who’s above you in this joint?’ And I can remember saying, the fella said to me, ‘The lecture’s at night. What would you do in the daytime? Go around Oriental Bay?’ And I said to him, ‘You say that again and see what happens then.’ I pestered. In the finish the pushed me out. They said, ‘You’ve got a bursary for one year only.’ I said, ‘Thank you very much.’ I forgot who it was who helped me get that. A bloke. Turner I think. I’ve forgotten who. In the end I went back and I said, ‘Now, I want a bursary to go to university next year.’ They said, ‘You’ve had one for a year. You were told for one year only. You’re not having another one.’ I said, ‘Who’s above you in this joint?’ So [laughs] so, finally I enrolled at the university and I went down. By this stage I’d have got to top man in New Zealand. A fellow called Colonel Barrington. A little fellow. And thank goodness for him. He was the top man. We started [laughs] we were swearing at each other. And then, and then I said, ‘I want a bursary. I’m not clever but I’m pig headed enough to want to get somewhere.’ And then finally he said to me, ‘Ring me back at 4 o’clock. What are you doing now?’ I said, ‘I’m up, my books are on the table in the library right now. Up at the university.’ ‘Ring me at 4 o’clock.’ So he gave me a bursary for a second year. And, and I found out that’s not the way to study. It’s not the way to study. Doing a three year course in two years is no way to. It’s wrong. Fundamentally wrong. It’s very wrong. You shouldn’t do that. But I finally got my accounting work from somebody. Then went on my own. And I spent a lot of my time on aviation. I was at the aero club and I was at the aero club for, I don’t know, sixteen years. And then and then the Royal New Zealand I was up for the whole of New Zealand. And then gliding for forty five years. New Zealand Secretary of Gliding for forty five years and I’d the only aerial topdressing company in Wellington. I was the secretary of that. I used to go up to Martinborough, every month for a director’s meeting with that John Rutherford whose family owned the dominion. John with his great big moustache, his Benz car. When you closed the door you thought you were closing a strongroom door.
GT: Wow. So, so for gliding became your passion in the end. Forty. Forty five years.
BC: Captain of the secretaries. Yeah. I had another secretaryship. Sixty years. My daughter said to me one night, ‘Come into town. We’re going to have a meal.’ That happened quite often. But they put one across me. When I got into this, this restaurant I knew everybody there. It was a party for me. To give me a New Zealand life membership of the painters. The only one ever given to a bloke who’s not been on the New Zealand Executive. I got life membership with the painters after sixty years secretaryship. That’s a long time.
GT: So you were a painter and paper hanger. Or —
BC: No. I was the secretary of it.
GT: Just became the secretary of it.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Wow. Without even being in the industries per se.
BC: That’s right. I was a, I was secretary of Wellington for six years. I was a life member of Wellington and I’m a life member of the New Zealand too. In fact when I got that life membership that was my eighth. I’ve got eight of them.
GT: Fabulous.
BC: I had about forty years in the motion picture industry too. I was the auditor of the motion pictures, the cinemas for New Zealand. And then I became a secretary. And I was the secretary of the — and I used to run all the conferences up at Rotorua and Hamilton.
GT: So, this is a direct result of you pushing to get your bursaries and you did a degree in Commerce.
BC: Yeah.
GT: This is a direct result of all of that.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
BC: I got a, I got a BComm and then I got my accountancy and then they decided that the Institute of Secretaries, there was a, I thought I might as well become, get my secretarial exam too. And they said if you sit this exam and pass it by the New Zealand you are automatically become a chartered secretary of England. So, we sat this, we sat this exam for, for the secretarial and I remember sitting in a church hall in town. I sat this exam and got it all done in about nine hours flat. Three three hours papers. Everybody, everyone was there to get in the back door. And I got home and I found out that one question I got all the, I made the list correct but I put the wrong heading on it and I thought oh, I had to finish that. But they gave me that and now I’m with the Chartered Institute of Secretaries too.
GT: What a fabulous thing. So, now tell me please about your family. You married and had children and when?
BC: Yeah. Well, when I went back to school in, in the class of a family called Derwent and I finished up by marrying her. She was a wonderful chorist. When I went back as a pupil when I was nineteen. And she was, her mother and father were, they were headmaster and headmistress of a Maori school in Turangi and it was pretty amazing rather. He was born in Scotland. A white man buried as a Maori chief. And when they buried him out came the cloak with the kiwi feather. Reserved for Maori chiefs.
GT: The rangatiras.
BC: They were around the Ataahua. All her family were, too [unclear] out. she was, she was white but a great honour for a white man to be buried as a Maori chief.
GT: So you met her before the war and when you came back you married.
BC: I married. Yeah. When I got back I married. I was twenty nine when I got married and I’ve got a wife and three children. That’s my wife there.
GT: She’s got a nurses uniform there.
BC: When I married her she was a theatre sister at Wellington Hospital. Blood and guts.
GT: Fair enough too. And then you lived here in Wellington.
BC: Yeah. I’ve always been in Wellington. Yeah. Ever since the war I’ve been in Wellington. I’ve got a daughter in Wellington. A son in Wainuiomata and a son in England.
GT: So how many grandchildren have you now?
BC: I’ve got two.
GT: Two grandchildren.
BC: Two boys. My daughter’s got two boys and my son in England has got two girls. And that’s my grandson on the right there. He put in for a job in Wellington in New Zealand. Eight hundred put in for it but he got it last year. Three days after he got it he told me he didn’t want it. That, that crowd in Melbourne sent for him and he’s over there. He’s not been long there before he got, he’s got promotion already and the woman in England with that firm wants him in England, and I hear two days ago the boss in Jakarta wants him. He’s, I don’t know, he’s something. I don’t think he’ll finish up in that firm. I think he’ll finish up like John Key making his money out of money which is not good. He just, that’s his father in the centre. He’s a lawyer in Wellington. And his, his father was an All Black. That there.
GT: Really?
BC: Incidentally, do you know what that thing on the left is?
GT: I’m looking at a shield type plaque and it is [pause] it’s the Caterpillar Club.
BC: You wouldn’t credit my name’s on the back of that would you?
GT: Now, Bruce is showing me his Caterpillar Club pin and it is, his name is engraved on the back of it and he’s kept it in a ring, in a ring holder so, and it’s on a small very delicate chain. So it’s a very prestigious thing to be wearing and still have your Caterpillar Club pin. Has it got one eye or two?
BC: One.
GT: It’s got one eye. Yeah.
BC: That’s enough.
GT: Yeah.
BC: What was that?
GT: Yeah. It’s got, yeah it’s got two eyes. Two little red ruby eyes.
BC: I used to think the coloured, two different coloured eyes but that, I believe that’s not true.
GT: Yours has both red. I can see that.
BC: They used to say the, the green eyed one was if you were shot down over the sea but I believe that’s not true. Yeah.
GT: I’ll find out for you, Bruce. I don’t know about that. So, so now, I’m sorry in chatting with you earlier you mentioned your wife had had a stroke and died. And how long ago was that, Bruce? When was that? Your wife died of a stroke. Was that correct?
BC: No. She had a stroke. But she had that. When I brought her home from England they sent her up to Taihape Hospital and she was there for thirteen years. I used to see her every day. Get her out on a Friday. Take her back. But that got too much for me. I used to, she insisted I do her washing. I used to do her washing every day and then do my shopping. And then I’d, it was always late at night. Then a few years ago, three years ago I was working full time. Still working ‘til midnight every night and enjoying it.
GT: At ninety. In your early nineties you were still working.
BC: Most. Yeah. Ninety four. Most of my life I didn’t have a doctor. I went for an insurance policy once and they said to me, ‘What’s your doctor’s name? We want to check up with your doctor?’ I said, ‘I haven’t got a doctor.’ ‘What’s his telephone number?’ I said, ‘Didn’t you hear me? I can’t give you a telephone number because I haven’t got a doctor.’ So, finally I gave them the name of Bill Treadwell. That was a doctor at Wadestown. Used to be a rugby doctor. So when I went down there to be tested a woman tested me. A woman doctor. I spent most of my life without a doctor but I’m very fortunate.
GT: And you’re looking very healthy. Bruce, you also mentioned that you’ve been a very long-time member of the RSA.
BC: Yeah.
GT: And, and that includes Rose and Poppy days. Please tell me about that.
BC: Yes. All together I did a hundred collections for that. They used to have a Poppy, a Rose day which was in, on Armistice Day in November. That stopped in the early 80s but I did, between sixty four and thirty six, that made a hundred. A hundred poppies.
GT: You did thirty four Rose Days and sixty six Poppy Days.
BC: Yeah. Yeah. I did.
GT: Because in England right now, England right now many service people are collecting for poppies and donations.
BC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: I have many friends that post saying they’re doing that.
BC: Yeah.
GT: And you were also the treasurer for the RSA.
BC: I was treasurer for the RSA. Yeah. Before that. That was twenty two years. And my wife was twenty eight. That made a century. That’s a good way to have it.
GT: That’s a good way to have it.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Now, you also mentioned to me a story about someone come up to you while you were collecting.
BC: Oh yes. He said the money doesn’t go to the RSA.
GT: But the gentleman said to you the money doesn’t go to the RSA. So, he was trying to have a go at you.
BC: Right.
GT: And what was your reply?
BC: My reply was that you picked on the wrong one. Of all the collections in Wellington you picked on the wrong one. I’m the treasurer [laughs]
GT: ‘And I know where that money goes,’ you said. Right.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. and in New Zealand the value of the returned serviceman’s association in New Zealand is all about what? What does the RSA do here in New Zealand?
BC: Looking after ex-servicemen and their families. That couldn’t be much more important because after all those blokes that not only did they lose their lives but their families lives were all mucked up too. And, you know I think in Europe there must have been over fifty million people killed. And there would be another fifty million were affected. Growing up without their father or mother or brother. And the same number in the east. And, and now we have a fellow sitting up there going to drop a bomb on it. Up in North Korea. I don’t know.
GT: Yeah. Pretty, pretty strife. Now, you also mentioned you knew Phil Lamason. Can you tell me about knowing Phil Lamason because he was another famous Lancaster pilot.
BC: Yeah. Well, he was, he rolled up in the prisoner of war camp after being in, he’d got out of Buchenwald and he [pause] I think he should if ever a man should have had an award it was him. He found out that they intended doing them all in the next day. He unfortunately got caught just before the invasion and, and he was shifted in to Fresnes Jail. And the Germans decided that all those in Fresnes Jail should be sent to Buchenwald. And that’s how he got there by mistake. But when they said that when he told us that he was air force they I think they struck him. And he used to be a prize fighter himself once. In fact in the book, the book about one of those spies he’s referred to as Lamason with a, with a pugnacious nose. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Because Phil Lamason he, he was featured in some news articles several years ago but sadly he’s since died so it was of interest to hear you mention his name.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Just recently so. And although you say you’ve been in very good health have you suffered a stroke recently yourself?
BC: No. In 1994 I was very fortunate. I’d just had breakfast and my daughter came around to my home and I said, ‘My breathing’s not working too well.’ She said, ‘I’d better take you to the doctor.’ So we went to the doctor and I finished up by being sent in to Kenepuru for about I don’t know must have been about ten or eleven weeks. But I wasn’t there very long before I was ready to run up and down the corridor. I was shown how to fix the strap. I was ready to run. And then I had a late [unclear] stroke in there. It cost me about eleven weeks at Kenepuru. I’m lucky to be here. Very very fortunate. Most amazing how that happened. Got in here so quickly. And I know somebody in St Giles, in St John’s Church they enquired about coming here and they were told eighteen months. So I was very fortunate.
GT: Certainly very fortunate because in 1996 you went back to Belgium. So, please tell us a little about your trip back to Belgium to meet the people that were in the village where you landed that night.
BC: I did. I can’t recall. All I can recall when I landed was that all these young Germans. It was 1 o’clock in the morning. That’s all I can remember at, in that place. They, they pitched. I had, for some reason or other I had my pilot’s badge was stuck on with a safety pin. Why I don’t know. But that was stolen. And then —
GT: Your pilot’s brevet you’re talking —
BC: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Your wings.
BC: Yeah. That was stolen.
GT: And what about your parachute? Where did you parachute end up?
BC: I don’t know where my parachute ended but that one I got I think was my radio, I think it was my radio operator’s. The silk in it you see was what they wanted for her wedding dress. And —
GT: So there was a woman in the village that used the parachute for her wedding dress.
BC: She gave it. I lifted her a foot off the ground when she gave it to me.
GT: So you went back in 1996.
BC: ’96.
GT: And there’s a lovely photogaph in the Belgian paper articles you’ve shown us.
BC: Yeah.
GT: And she is showing you her gown made from the parachute —
BC: That’s right. Yeah.
GT: Of your wireless operator’s.
BC: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: And you have a piece of that leftover, of that parachute here in your possession now.
BC: That’s correct. Yeah.
GT: So you still have that. That’s fabulous. So, you were treated, treated very well when you went there. Was that right? You were treated very well, Bruce.
BC: Yeah. Yeah. When I went, when I went in I went over to London for the — incidentally at the you know in London there were about twelve members of the royal family there. Most amazing. And when the English government wouldn’t give a cent towards it. Twelve of the royal family there.
GT: Yeah. Bruce this is the next and the last thing we’re going to talk to you about. And I’d like you to check and tell us that how you managed to get to England in 2012 for the Bomber Command Memorial of London’s opening. Which I was there too and I remember you there now. Please tell us how you got there and, and what happened.
BC: Well, it started off by a client of mine, I’ve still got him as a client, a few days prior said, ‘Are you going to London?’ And I said, ‘What for?’ He said, ‘The Memorial.’ I said, ‘What’s that all about?’ He told me about it so I decided to apply but unfortunately I made my application the day before they closed and they, the bloke said, ‘I’ll give you a — I’ll give you a week to get it in.’ So, finally I got it in and and and they were pretty strict with the medicals. They didn’t want anything to happen to you while you were — and one poor fella he passed all that and when he got up to Auckland just before his take-off there was another little medical. He got chucked. He got chucked altogether. And at that stage I was sitting on a stool. A three pronged stool. And I had to take, I had to take that with me. Now, at Kuala Lumpur I’m sitting on that stool talking to a doctor and then, and I — what was I talking about? I think I said, ‘We’re all in this life for some reason or other.’ The next thing I’m on the floor and they thought I’d thrown a heart attack. And I got up. I said, ‘Don’t worry about me. Have a look to see if the floor’s damaged,’ [laughs] And you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t credit it. That thing had three prongs on it and it cracked right across there. You wouldn’t believe it. How it came to crack. And my Kiwi rep said to me later on in the night, ‘I found you one of those seats.’ I said, ‘I don’t believe you.’ She said, They’re for sale in the front of this beautiful big hotel.’ I said, ‘I don’t believe you.’ So, that night we went and had a look. And they had this little shop. Only about half the size of this room. They had two of them so I bought the two of them and, but how it came to break I never. It’s unbelievable how it broke.
GT: So you nearly didn’t make it. So, so a slight bit of background for the folks listening, listening to us is that the New Zealand Bomber Command Association in 2011 got a team together to look to getting as many veterans and their families to England as possible.
BC: Yeah.
GT: For the 2012.
BC: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: And in the turn of events the New Zealand government took it off of the Bomber Command people and they organised a 757 of the Royal New Zealand Air Force and their crew. The Chief of the Air Force, Mr Peter Stockwell went as well. And there was thirty three of you chaps selected and each of you were assigned a New Zealand Veteran’s Affairs and a New Zealand Army medical staff person.
BC: Yeah. That’s right.
GT: So they looked after you to get over there. So you flew from New Zealand to England via the Middle East and on the 757 and you stayed in England for about a week or ten days. You were very well looked after. They gave you the best of hotels and you also joined in with us of the 75 Squadron Association’s New Zealand and UK.
BC: That’s right.
GT: And we had a grand day at Mepal and dinner. And also Newmarket and, and at Feltwell. So, can, can you please tell everybody because you were sitting up front next to her majesty and Prince Charles. And did you get to meet them?
BC: No I didn’t. I didn’t feel too well at that and I was sitting a bit away from the front otherwise I would have met them. I did enjoy my night at the Guildhall. And that was my, my son’s mother in law said to me, ‘The Guildhall. Not many people get into the Guildhall,’ and I said, ‘No.’ And I spent a long time speaking to the treasurer of the whole place. Yeah. I found out he was the treasurer.
GT: And you would have gone to the RAF Club as well. Did you go up in to the RAF Club?
BC: No. No.
GT: Across the road.
BC: I can, I remember the Guildhall very well. That was a great night there. When I came home they had a service at the National War Memorial for those who couldn’t go. But the odd one or two blokes who went to London did go and at the last minute I got turned up for an interview. And that, occasionally I read it on the internet and it’s —
GT: So, what did you think of the Memorial, Bruce?
BC: Oh wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah. I’ve always, the night before we went to, the day before we went to the Memorial we were driven around and we had a look also at the Memorial that was for Sir, was it Keith Park?
KP: Yeah.
BC: And I was very disappointed at that. Yeah. They didn’t give him a fair go did they? They just didn’t give him a fair go. And I thought that, I thought there’d be a big Memorial for him. You know, you go around London there’s blokes sitting on horses with spears up in the air and yet this very small thing was for Keith Park who did a wonderful job at the start of the war.
GT: He was the saviour of the Battle of Britain, wasn’t he?
BC: Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
BC: Yeah.
GT: So, so the statue of the seven airmen. Did they represent you guys do you think? Was their images awesome or —
BC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did. I did that. I’m very impressed with that.
GT: Did you see you up there? Because they’d got the pilot standing up front.
BC: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Represent you alright?
BC: It cost about six or seven million. I don’t, I don’t know what it costs them every year to run. Do you know?
GT: There is an upkeep. The Benevolent Fund has the upkeep for that memorial and the 75 Squadron Association —
BC: Not far from Buckingham Palace.
GT: That’s correct.
BC: Yeah.
GT: It’s through the park. Yeah. Yeah.
BC: Yeah.
GT: So Bruce what, our interview with you today has been for the digital archives at the International Bomber Command Centre.
BC: Yeah.
GT: And they’re based in Lincoln. And early in 2018 their brand new building will be opened and that will house a lot of the Memorial and the records of you gentlemen. You, our famous Bomber Command people. And this interview that I’m recording for you and with you now will go towards that digital archive.
BC: Yeah.
GT: So, I think we’ve been speaking for well over an hour and a half so I’ve run right through a lot of the things. Is there anything else you’d like to point out or say?
BC: No. I’ll think of it later on.
GT: Yeah.
BC: I’ll think of something.
GT: You’ll think of something later on but I probably will have gone but —
BC: People say I should write a book but I don’t know. They say I should write a book but I don’t —
GT: You endured so much Bruce. What about the fact that the Bomber Command role could — could Harris have done it any other way?
BC: No. I don’t think so. Aircrew liked him. I don’t think he got a fair go. I don’t know whether he hit it off too well with Churchill. I can’t be sure about that. And I have an article somewhere in my records where that trip to Nuremberg was that it should never have happened. I’ve got that. I think they, they knew we were coming. Lamason made the comment before they went to Nuremberg on that trip he said, ‘This is suicide. We shouldn’t be going this long straight trek with no changes of course. Something fishy here.’ And I’ve seen an article where that might have been. Mind you if it is true it probably saved lives but the air force had to pay. You see, for a long time the Germans thought — they took the word of that spy who said the invasion’s coming from Calais. And they kept all the bigger German equipment around Calais waiting for the invasion. Rommel pleaded for that stuff to be sent down south so he could use it. And they said no. It’s all coming finally at Calais. Of course that was just a big hoax wasn’t it? They had no intention. That might have been the reason why we lost a lot at Nuremberg. The spy told them the route and everything. They were waiting for the RAF that night. But I don’t know whether that’s true or not.
GT: The fabulous thing is you survived.
BC: Yeah.
GT: And I’m very honoured to be talking with you here today. And we’ve got Poppy Days coming up but I know that you’ve retired from that. Yeah.
BC: That bloke who took over from me on Poppy Day he died a couple months ago.
KP: Yeah. That one.
GT: Yeah. Oh gosh. So, so the Bomber Command gentlemen, and your numbers are dwindling very quick and I’m so privileged to be able to come and talk with you today in your place and I —
BC: I don’t, I don’t think I’ll be interviewed again in my lifetime now.
GT: Well, you can be rest assured that the people listening to these recordings, this recording with you will sit back and be very honoured to listen to what you’ve had to say to us today.
BC: I bought one of these things before I came here. Never used it and it’s gone. I don’t know where it is. I asked my daughters a couple of times where it’s gone but they don’t remember.
GT: One last thing then, Bruce. What do you think of the Lancaster Mark 2?
BC: Oh marvellous. I’ve seen the fellow [unclear], an engineer on the Mark 2 said they suited him fine. They were much more powerful and they were better. Stood much more damage but they wouldn’t go up quite so high and on a long trip they couldn’t quite take so much ammunition because they needed more petrol. That’s right. They needed more petrol. But I can remember seeing a Mark 3 take off on our short runways once and when they got to the end of the, then end of the runway [unclear]. We used to take off in the middle of the night six ton of bombs aboard on those short runways. And they were much more powerful. My garage clients put a heated, about the make-up of the different engines. He said the Bristol motor was much much better. A better motor.
GT: Wow.
BC: And he’d know all about engines and that.
GT: Yeah. And your aircraft was the three hundredth off the production line.
BC: That’s right. Yeah.
GT: That you were shot down on.
BC: Yes.
GT: That was last one produced.
BC: Yeah.
GT: You were saying to me.
BC: It must have been a costly business running a war with all those aeroplanes. The cost must have been absolutely fantastic. Was that what crippled England after the war? I don’t know.
GT: It did. Well, Bruce I think it’s time that we, we sign off our recording now. And I I must thank you very much. And for Kaye who’s been sitting here listening and in awe of Bruce’s story as well. For introducing me to Bruce here. So, I’m going to say thank you very much. It’s now quarter past five on the evening of the 4th of November 2017 here at Bruce Cunningham’s place at the Rita Angus Retirement Village in Kilbirnie, New Zealand. And I’m sure that dinner awaits down below so I’m going to say thank you very much for, for chatting with us and I will make this recording —
BC: I wish as well. I don’t know that it will be. I hope it is.
GT: You can have the last word Bruce.
BC: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Thank you very much, Bruce. Yeah.
BC: Thank you.
GT: Thank you
BC: Thank you.
GT: Alright.
[paused]
BC: I have a great deal of trouble with electronics. Hunter aeroplanes.
GT: Did you? Hunters.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
BC: And he started off to be a lawyer in New Zealand and [paused] in charge of 707s.
[recording paused]
BC: And when people ask me, when they ask me I don’t think I should say, ‘I don’t want to talk to you.’ If they ask you a question. Tell them. Get on with it.
GT: Yeah.
BC: You know in POW you didn’t even speak about what you did during the war. You didn’t know and couldn’t care. My brother he was in the army. I didn’t know what he did. He didn’t know what I did either. My family don’t know what I did. They haven’t got a clue. If they asked me I’d tell them. They don’t ask me. I don’t tell them. It doesn’t arise.
GT: Many choose not to speak so I’m honoured that you’ve spoken to me today. Thank you.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Now, actually I’ll take a picture of you two.
KP: Oh no. Don’t take a picture of me. I don’t like being photographed. Bruce, would you like me to go out and ask them to bring your tea in here?
BC: No. No. No. I normally go out a little bit later but I’ll catch up. They’re old people. They take a while to eat and talk too much. I’m not. I’m only ninety seven.
GT: Bruce, I’m going to take a picture of you by yourself because I’ve got a picture here. Actually, if I just put that there so that’s Bruce Cunningham and you’ve got your Lancaster pictures up above you.
KP: He’s Lancaster pictures all over the place.
GT: Which is fabulous and I love that. Now similar with the other gentleman. Jack Meehan.
BC: Eh?
GT: Remember Jack Meehan who was on the trip in 2012.
BC: Oh, I remember the name. Yeah.
GT: Jack died at Christmas time. Dick Lampier. He died a couple of years ago. Dick was in the wheelchair.
BC: Oh yeah.
GT: Was he ok? Some said he wasn’t.
KP: Oh I remember. He was a Wellington man wasn’t he?
GT: No. Lancaster.
BC: Where I —
GT: Jake Wakefield.
KP: No. No. I mean Wellington. Wellington city.
GT: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
KP: Yes. I remember. He was a very difficult man.
BC: I went to see my son and he gave me a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful photo of — what was the double VC bloke’s name?
GT: Oh Upham.
BC: Upham. Yeah.
GT: Charles Upham.
BC: Oh beautiful photo. Gold lettering, and he said, ‘Take that back to New Zealand with you.’ Big one. Great big photo. And I said, ‘I don’t know whether I can get it on the aeroplane.’ He said, ‘Take it back.’ I gave it to a doctor who was, got a very high rank in New Zealand. In the army. Oh terrific rank. Right at the top. I said this is, this is a very high rank. He said well I had to give it up to come over here. I gave it to her and she bought half, and the last I saw of it in Auckland. She waved me and went out and said here’s the picture. And I think, I think it might be in the boss’s office of the Vet’s Affairs in Wellington.
KP: Oh right.
BC: I’m not sure.
KP: Oh, I don’t think —
GT: And you haven’t seen it.
KP: I’m just going to tell them that you are late for tea. I’ll be back in a moment.
GT: And you haven’t seen it since.
BC: Yeah.
[pause]
GT: Ok. Ron’s in that one. [pause] Ron was there.
BC: My crew are there somewhere.
GT: Have you still got your logbook?
BC: Eh?
GT: Have you still got your logbook?
BC: Yeah.
GT: And your medals.
BC: Yeah.
GT: Are your medals on here.
BC: Yeah. I don’t know. I never wear my — I don’t like wearing medals. I don’t like wearing them.
GT: No.
BC: I don’t. I don’t. I don’t like wearing my medals for some reason or other.
GT: Did you, did you get all your medals though?
[pause]
KP: You still haven’t seen the magic book that was the start of all of this. You’ll just have to come again.
GT: Yeah. I will.
BC: At one station I was at I was quite, quite a green sort of a pilot and the flight commander called us in and said, ‘I want to do something. I want to help you people. If you mention a word about it I’ll kill you.’ I said, ‘Well, what’s the story.’ He said, ‘The wing commander wants to come for a flight tonight and I’ve been asked to give him a crew so he can test fly. But I don’t want to do it that way. I want you to draw lots as to who takes the wing commander.’ Because Joe Soap loses the, loses it, what’s the name. I had to take the wing commander. It was the best thing I ever did during my air force. I took him. We got over the place and we couldn’t bomb it because of cloud and the navigator said, ‘Oh hang on.’ — do this, do that, do that. ‘Bombs away.’ We took a photo and it was very difficult thing to get in Wales and it came out and we won the bombing competition.
GT: Oh wow.
BC: [unclear] But to have our photo taken in front of an aeroplane. And the wing commander was so full of himself he was going around the officer’s mess saying how he’d bombed this place in Wales. In Wales. ‘Well, you all you did, you were a passenger.’ They took the photo and it didn’t come out did it? The next station I said, ‘I want my photo back.’ And that’s it.
GT: That’s it there.
KP: Oh.
GT: Your crews too.
BC: That’s it.
GT: Right. Ok. So I’m going to take a shot of that but what —
BC: When we were at Kuala Lumpur we were held up for the plane to be fixed or something and I went away from the rest of the crowd and I sat on my own. And some girls came over and they were security girls at Kuala Lumpur. And I took a liking to them and they did the same for me. Finally they called us all to the aeroplane and she grabbed my arm and walked me towards the aeroplane. Now, now people on either side of the aeroplane watching. And the squadron leader called out, seen me walking with this girl arm in arm. ‘What’s going on here?’ I said, ‘Jealousy will get you nowhere, mate. I’m not going back to New Zealand.’ He said, ‘Oh you’ve got a new girlfriend have you?’ That’s them.
GT: That’s them there is it? Lovely.
KP: Oh right.
GT: I think she was blinking though.
KP: Oh, who cares.
GT: That’s right. The one behind’s even lovely.
KP: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: We did a couple of trips to Malaysia. I’ve been with the Sky Hawks.
BC: Athletic champ while I was at college.
KP: So that’s —
GT: Very nice.
BC: That’s where I [pause] that’s where I’m nineteen. Head prefect.
GT: You were destined. Now — oh is that you?
BC: Yeah.
GT: Oh gosh. I’m going to have to keep taking photographs. I wish I’d brought my scanner actually.
[pause]
KP: This is a really good photo. Who are you talking to there?
BC: Oh, that’s the bloke that put me in the Wall Street Journal.
KP: Oh right.
GT: I think you like interviews.
BC: Has she finished?
KP: Isn’t that a neat photo because it’s a doing things photo. Right.
BC: She finished up in the Wall Street Journal.
GT: Leaning up against the, that’s a really good story isn’t it?
KP: Yeah. It’s just —
GT: I’m surprised you bought another couple of three legged stools after that one breaking on you.
BC: Yeah.
KP: And there’s the, yeah here’s the lady with the parachute silk.
BC: Yeah. The woman who made her wedding dress.
GT: One thing we didn’t discuss Bruce was when you took your commission.
[pause]
KP: Here’s one taken here. Here by the look of it. Oh there’s another.
BC: Oh she was a —
KP: That’s a different one.
BC: She was a Countess that one. That’s in Belgium. At the reception.
KP: Oh.
GT: That was ’45. That was June ’45 as well.
BC: Yeah. One of those blokes, I’m not sure which one, air commodore. Prisoner of war.
GT: So when did you get your commission?
BC: Eh?
GT: When did you get your commission because you’ve got an officer’s —
BC: Yeah.
GT: Suit on there. You said you were a flight sergeant.
BC: I wanted to go to the New Zealand forces club and a fellow at Bennington, from Marsden said, ‘You haven’t got a commission. Why haven’t got one?’ The next time I see him he said to me, ‘Put in for it. You’ll get it straightaway.’ I said, ‘Oh you’re talking rubbish.’ He said I’d take it anyway. Next time I was in London he said, ‘Haven’t you put in for that yet? Put in. You’ll get it straight away. I’m telling you.’ I didn’t realise at the time that he must have been in the know for something. I decided yes, I’ll put in and so help me it came through straight away. They had, they had a church service on Waterbeach and I didn’t go and all those who didn’t go were given drill to do. And while I was doing it a bloke came over to me and said, ‘We can’t drill you any longer. You’re an officer.’ I thought that’s funny. After all my connection with the church I get in to trouble. I get some drill for not going to church. That’s unusual. All my connections over donkeys — a lifetime in the church. And now I’m in trouble for not going to church. But of course when I got pulled out for the drill everyone said boo hoo hoo, ‘Why are you getting off for and we’ve got to stay here and do the drill?’
GT: People are really strange, aren’t they?
KP: They are strange. Yeah.
GT: [unclear] what they do.
KP: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bruce Cunningham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACunninghamAB171104
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Format
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02:02:42 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Bruce Cunningham was born in New Zealand. After initial training as a pilot he was posted to RAF Wescott Operational Training Unit and flew operations with 514 Squadron at RAF Waterbeach. His first operation was over Berlin. On one operation they were shot down and as he landed on the roof of the house he looked up at the sky as the other aircraft were heading for home. One lady from the village used the parachute silk for her wedding dress. He became a prisoner of war and was sent to Stalag Luft 3.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Nuremberg
Poland--Żagań
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
11 OTU
514 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Caterpillar Club
crewing up
Dulag Luft
evading
fear
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
memorial
Operational Training Unit
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Stradishall
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Westcott
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/729/10727/ABrumwellR180630.1.mp3
3b31d9599626b0664dc6f6093437c2c3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brumwell, Ralph
R Brumwell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ralph Brumwell DFC (1920 - 2021, 127140 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 218 and 75 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-06-30
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Brumwell, R
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GT: This is Saturday the 30th of June 2018 and I am at the home of Mr Ralph Brumwell, DFC born 24 July 1920 in Dorset, England and I'm in his lovely home in Ponteland, in Newcastle upon Tyne. Ralph joined the RAF Volunteer Reserve in 1939 and after training and a brief time on a [next] squadron joined 75 New Zealand Squadron in May 1944. By September Ralph had completed his tour and was awarded the DFC. Ralph, thank you for having me visit you in your lovely home and I’d very much like you to please tell us a little bit about your RAF time, where you were born and then what made you join the RAF?
RB: Well, in the autumn of 1938 Chamberlain, the Prime Minister went to meet Hitler and he came back with his piece of paper, waving to the crowds, “Peace in our time.” But a little while after that everybody got a thing, a piece of paper through the door inviting them to join, asking them to join a voluntary service of some sort because I think they realised that the war was going to come. I mean Churchill did anyway and I think they realised war was going to come anyway and they wanted to build up the reserve services. I lived, I lived in Poole in Dorset or near Poole which is on a lovely harbour and I was very keen on yachting and boating and I wanted to join the Navy. So I applied to join the RNVR, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve but it came back that, unfortunately, you live too far away from a VR Centre, an RNVR Centre. The nearest one is Portsmouth which you can’t [laughs] it’s too far for you to travel for lectures twice a week in the evening. So I thought, well, what do I do now? The next [laughs], the next thing I thought we obviously didn't want to join the Army because we thought in those days the Army was going to be like the First World War with awful trench warfare and that sort of thing. So, I was there. Didn't, didn’t want to join any Army units so I decided to join the RAF. Try the RAF and I got accepted to join the RAFVR at the Southampton centre. It was still thirty miles away from my home but they accepted me. I had to get my father’s permission of course because I was only eighteen years of age so he had to sign that he agreed to this. And so then I joined. I joined that and I used to go, we had to go two, two nights a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays for two hours of lectures at the RAF’s RAFVR Centre at Southampton and then add on when you, when you got, I’d start, I could start flying because they liked to start you to fly when you could go for a fortnight. So we had to get a fortnights holiday from your job. I worked at the Westminster Bank in those days and I got a fortnights holiday and went to the RAFVR station at Hamble and started to fly. During the fortnight they started me flying and I got solo and did a few hours there and then, then of course on September the 1st war broke out so I was called up immediately to, to the RAF.
GT: So you’d already had a few hours under, and your time —
RB: I had about twenty hours I think when war broke out.
GT: That's solo time or —
RB: No. Altogether.
GT: Altogether. Ok.
RB: Altogether. That’s all. From then on [unclear] they didn't know what to do with us first of all so had a fortnight off at home. I’d packed up my civil job and gone home and they didn't know what to do with us because all the units were full up. But eventually I got a phone call to say I was posted to an ITW at St Leonards on sea and so I had to go to Southampton to, to the centre of Southampton to join the other people who were joining and we went down train to, to St. Leonards on Sea to an ITW. Initial Training Wing where we did drill and lectures and things like that on the, on the front and on the pier. And then from there I was posted to Redhill to start flying again. And I got to Redhill which was a Reserved Flying School and I started flying Magisters.
GT: Ok.
RB: And I liked, loved the Magisters which was a lovely little aeroplane to fly. And I was there for, oh ‘til [pause] ‘til 1940, the spring of 1940, summer of 1940 because every, all the units seemed to be full up. All the FTSs, Final Training Schools were full up and then from there I went to Brize Norton as an FTS and I got my wings.
GT: Wow. That's a long time to wait. Sure. So, once you had your wings where did they send you from there?
RB: My wings and I went to an, I got my wings at Brize Norton then I went to Harwell on a, on a, what do you call it? Oh dear.
GT: A Conversion Unit was it?
RB: No. Yeah. What do you call it?
GT: And what aircraft were you flying at Harwell?
RB: A Wellington.
GT: And was that easy to work from?
RB: An OTW. OTW.
GT: OTW.
RB: Operational Training Wing.
GT: Oh yeah.
RB: Flying Wellingtons. And then from there I went, I went to the squadron. On 218 Squadron.
GT: So, the Wellingtons were, were pretty new pretty much for the beginning of the war were they difficult?
RB: Well, they were —
GT: Big and heavy to fly at that time for you guys or —
RB: Easy?
GT: Yeah?
RB: I wouldn't call them exactly easy but they weren’t a tricky aeroplane I didn't think.
GT: And how many hours did you work there?
RB: We had Wellington 1s, Wellington 1Cs and when of course I went to the squadron at 218 on Wellingtons which was on, we were on Wellington 1Cs.
GT: And where was 218 based at that time?
RB: That was based at Marham.
GT: And was that the only squadron there? Were you just the only ones or —
RB: No. There was another squadron. I can't think what number it was. I can’t think what the other one was. Was it 105 or, something like that, I think.
GT: So, earlier you were telling me of a mishap that happened on, when you were on 218. So can you tell me a little bit about that?
RB: Well, I did about four or five ops and then we were coming back from, we’d been to Dusseldorf. I was the second pilot, that’s all because we had two pilots in those days on Bomber Command. Two pilots and I was the second pilot so I was, just used to stand beside the captain on the, there was a seat there but I used to just usually stand beside him. Unfortunately, we got we got shot down by a Junkers 88 over, over our base as we came back circling to land and we landed in this, there was snow on the ground fortunately the captain could see the hedgerows and he managed to put it down very well in a grass field.
GT: Any of the crew hurt?
RB: Yes. The front. Well, the aircraft caught fire immediately as soon as we hit the ground of course and unfortunately the front gunner was jammed, was stuck in his front turret and he couldn't get out. And all the rest of the crew who were fit went out to try and get him out of the turret, turn the turret around but it wouldn't turn you see. It was jammed. Jammed. But we eventually when he was taken to hospital eventually in Kings Lynn and died there unfortunately a few days later.
GT: Ok.
RB: All the rest of the crew were uninjured apart from the rear gunner just sprained his ankle, I think.
GT: And what about yourself?
RB: Yeah. But, I broke my arm on this. I had a compound fracture on this arm which put me in hospital in Ely.
GT: And how long were you at the hospital?
RB: Pardon?
GT: How long were you in the hospital at Ely for?
RB: I think a couple of months. Something like that. A couple of months. Then I got, once I was an outpatient, walking patient they put, there was another walk-in hospital in Littleport which I got sent there because I was a walking patient.
GT: Did your arm mend ok? Did it take long?
RB: Pardon?
GT: Did your elbow, did your arm, did it mend ok for you to keep flying?
RB: Yes. It mended. I had an excellent, they had excellent doctors of course in the RAF and I had an excellent orthopaedic surgeon who, who set it and set it beautifully and it mended beautifully except that I couldn't straighten it for a long time. It was two or three years before I could really straighten it so they put me on light aircraft non-operational only. I had to go to, for an RAF medical and they, they put me light aircraft only. Non-operational. So that's when I went for, eventually they posted me after hospital I went back to Marham and I did flare path duties for a month or so and then they posted me two Newmarket on Gunnery Training Flight and I was flying Lysanders there towing, towing targets to train gunners for Bomber Command.
GT: And that was about what 1941 ’42 was it?
RB: That was the end of ’41. Yeah.
GT: Ok.
RB: Yeah. I was in that unit for about two years before they, I eventually got fit, fully fit. This arm became, got straight again eventually and they put me back operational so and then that's when I went to to train on four engine bombers.
GT: Ah, four engines. Now, so you did —
RB: Stirlings.
GT: Conversion was on to Stirlings. Yeah.
RB: Going on to Stirlings. Yeah.
GT: And what OCU were you on for that?
RB: Then from there I went to the Lanc Finishing School.
GT: Which was at Feltwell.
RB: At Feltwell. Lanc Finishing School. And then from there of course on to the squadron. To 75 at Mepal.
GT: So, your conversion from Stirlings to Lancasters was only a week normally.
RB: Two weeks.
GT: Two weeks.
RB: Two weeks. You had a week’s lectures.
GT: Yeah.
RB: Ground lectures dealing, learning, learning about the aeroplane and lectures, engineering lectures and that sort of thing. And then a week’s flying.
GT: Was the conversion easy? The difference of aircraft.
RB: Well, it came easy after. After a Stirling because the Stirling was a bit of an old brute to fly. It used to swing a lot you know. Had a nasty swing on landing and that sort of thing.
GT: So, you’d only —
RB: And I found, I found that the Lancaster was an absolute treat after. After, a Stirling was like flying a big Tiger Moth.
GT: Yeah. Had you, you had done several operations already in Wellingtons on 218.
RB: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And did you do any operations on the Stirling?
RB: No. No. No. No.
GT: Ok. So it had been —
RB: It was purely, purely a conversion flight.
GT: Purely conversion. Ok.
RB: Heavy Conversion. Heavy Conversion Unit.
GT: Right. So, in, in around about May 1944 then you joined 75 New Zealand Squadron.
RB: Yeah.
GT: And, and they at that time were at Newmarket.
RB: No, Mepal.
GT: They had gone to Mepal by then.
RB: They had gone to Mepal by then. Yeah.
GT: Alright.
RB: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And, and you had your own crew then. When did you meet up with your crew then because you were —
RB: Well, normally people who went from OTUs to, to, went to OTUs, picked up their crews at their OTUs didn't they? They all had a, used to gather together in a, in a big hall somewhere or something and picked their own. Picked their own crew up. They sort of, well, I don't know how they did it but it was a rather haphazard thing but my, my I didn't have that chance because I was just a pilot. I think the crew, my crew were some were sort of left over. I don't understand how I got them but [laughs] but anyway I got crewed up with a full crew apart from the flight engineer. No. I did have the flight engineer as well, of course. But —
GT: Was that at Westcott or Harwell? Where did you do that? Your crewing up.
RB: My crewing was at Westcott.
GT: You did it at Westcott.
RB: Westcott OTU. Yeah. Yeah. Westcott.
GT: So, there were a lot of New Zealanders around at the time was there?
RB: Yeah. Yeah. There were there. Yeah. Yeah. Westcott and, Westcott and Oakley I went to. Oakley was, which was a satellite of Westcott and I was back on, I was on Wellingtons again.
GT: Alright. So, so can you tell me your crew members? Can you tell me who your crew were?
RB: My crew were. Yes.
GT: Yeah.
RB: There was, they were all, they were all sergeants or flight sergeants. Flight sergeant [pause] what was his name? Pip. Pip. I can't remember the name.
GT: That's alright. Yeah. Max Ruane.
RB: Buzz was Buzz Busfield.
GT: Yeah.
RB: Louie. Louie, no Armitage. Pip Armitage was my wireless operator. Louis Arthur was the rear gunner. And Max. Max.
GT: Ruane.
RB: Ruane.
GT: Yeah.
RB: Max Ruane was the bomb aimer. That’s right. And of course, we didn’t, we didn't get the mid-upper gunner until we got to the Heavy Conversion Unit. ‘Til we got to Stirlings.
GT: And your flight engineer too.
RB: And the flight engineer. That's right. The flight engineer joined us. He was a, he was a Lancastrian fellow. Lad. Nelson his name was.
GT: And you all got on really well.
RB: We all got on very well. Yes. We did. We all got along very well, I think.
GT: Excellent.
RB: A very happy crew I think.
GT: And you were all senior NCOs.
RB: Yes. No. I was, I’d been commissioned by then. I was commissioned at Newmarket when I was on the gunnery training flight. I got my commission. I was a flying officer by that time. All the rest were NCOs.
GT: So, was it true that the officers went one way and the senior NCOs went the other once you got out of the aircraft?
RB: Oh no.
GT: No? You still went together.
RB: We had to go to our own messes of course to have our meal. We couldn’t, we had to go to our own messes but, and we all went together to the debriefing of course after, after an operation. And then after that we went to the mess to, to have our breakfast which was always bacon and egg. And then back to bed.
GT: Did you all sleep in the same hut?
RB: Oh no.
GT: No. Was it officers in one —
RB: Officers had separate. Separate Nissen huts.
GT: Ok. So, so when you started operations again on 75 New Zealand squadron at Mepal what were the targets you were given?
RB: The targets?
GT: Were they easy? Were they —
RB: Well, some were. Some weren’t. Some was, I was very lucky I think because I got a lot towards that time, you know after D-Day I was [pause] Actually, I was on leave over D-Day which was [laughs] I was on leave with Max. Max. With Max Ruane. I’d taken him home for a couple of days.
GT: Yeah.
RB: And we were walking. I remember walking up at Bournemouth up the cliffside on the east side of Bournemouth and looking up the Solent. It was full of ships. Absolutely thousands of ships. And I said to Max and my father, my father was with us, I said, ‘There's something on here. There's something happening here. Look at this. Look at all these ships.’ And of course, it was the night before D-Day.
GT: D-Day. Wow.
RB: Of course, they couldn't stop my, couldn’t stop our leave because otherwise people, we would have known something was fishy coming up and we had to, it was so secret that we couldn't, they couldn't stop our leave but we had to have a weeks leave every six weeks.
GT: Because 75 squadron —
RB: On operations.
GT: Did at least two sets of ops on D-Day itself. So, one early morning and one later in the day.
RB: I did, I don’t know.
GT: So you weren’t there then.
RB: Whether they operated or not because as I say I was on leave so I don't know whether they operated or not.
GT: The other crew must have.
RB: Yeah.
GT: So, was Mepal a nice base? Did you have good pubs around the place?
RB: Oh yes. Yes. Some nice people. I met some. We met, we met a very nice farmer and his wife and family who lived in Sutton which is a local, another local village near Maple and they used to have us down for supper and that sort of thing and it was very nice. Very nice friendly people.
GT: What about the pubs?
RB: In fact, I kept up. I kept up a friendship with them right until they died. Way after, way after the war. I kept this farmer at [unclear] we used to go and stay with them and everything. Took my family there and everything. They were wonderful to us.
GT: What about the pubs? Which ones do you remember?
RB: Oh, what was the one called? We had a favourite one.
GT: Chequers?
RB: No. No. Not the Chequers.
GT: The Three Pickerels?
RB: No [laughs] you know them do you? No, the other one was down the other way. What the heck was it called? Oh dear. I can’t remember.
GT: That’s alright. It’ll come to you. So with the church on the hill there was that one it, was a bit like Lincoln with their Cathedral? Was that something you homed in on to get home when you were flying in because that had a tall tower didn’t it? Was that —
RB: Flying in from —
GT: When you were landing at Mepal.
RB: Yeah. Well, we used to see Ely Cathedral, of course. We used to fly over Ely Cathedral.
GT: That was your marker.
RB: That was our marker. Yeah. But there was another airfield in the same, very close. Witchford. Witchford. Which their drem, drem system sort of interlocked with ours and several of our squadron people landed at Witchford by mistake.
GT: That was 115 Squadron.
RB: That was 115. That's right. Yeah.
GT: So, now, 115 had a few aircraft shot down with aircraft waiting over them. Pretty much like you did.
RB: Did they?
GT: With 218.
RB: Did they?
GT: I think it was a Hornisse 410 that shot some Lancasters down. Did that ever happen at Mepal at all with you guys?
RB: No. I don’t know. It never happened. We never got any shot down over base. No. Never happened over base.
GT: You were lucky then. What about any accidents at the time?
RB: Pardon?
GT: Any accidents happen while you were flying?
RB: I don't remember any accidents at Mepal. No. One incident I do remember. I remember laying in bed one night and there was a terrific explosion and I sat up straight in bed and I thought what ever was that? I remember sitting up in bed straight. I mean I was in the same Nissen hut as Walsh, Jack Walsh and his crew and they didn't, they didn’t, I don’t think they even woke up. I don't know. Anyway, I went back, laid back, went back to sleep. The next morning we discovered that they’d left some bombs on an aircraft with the, with the delayed fuses still on and the fuses had gone. Set the aircraft, set the bombs off and blown three, three aircraft because there were three aircraft on each dispersal area. Disposal point. And so all three aircraft were written off. Three Lancs.
GT: I believe one of the guards bicycled past those aircraft minutes before it happened so —
RB: Did they?
GT: So he was really lucky. Yes.
RB: Oh, you’ve heard this. You’ve heard about this. Who told you this?
GT: Oh, there’s photographs.
RB: Eh?
GT: There’s photographs. Other 75 Squadron veterans have told me of that.
RB: Have they?
GT: Of that incident. Yeah.
RB: They were there were they?
GT: Yeah. There was one guy set up —
RB: Terrible noise.
GT: Hit his head on his hat. On his tin hat.
RB: That’s right. Yeah.
GT: He was the only injury. So it's interesting to hear that from other chaps who where there.
RB: Oh yeah.
GT: Yeah.
RB: That’s interesting.
GT: And for, for Mepal you were there during the time 75 Squadron lost its most aircraft in one night. It was seven. Seven aircraft?
RB: That's right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We’ll have to look up in that that record of mine there and it tells you when that was.
GT: That was about the middle of July so so that was a pretty tough time on the squadron I'm sure. Yeah.
RB: Yeah. That was towards the end of my tour I think that was.
GT: Can you tell me of any of the targets that you flew? Or was there any problems? Ack ack or night fighters.
RB: One of them. One of them, I can’t remember one of them was when we had a lot of trouble with night fighters dropping their, dropping flares on us from above. Dropping flares. Flares on us from above but I'm afraid I used to if they had a flare coming down or thoughts like that I used to corkscrew before before they attacked. Try and catch them before they attacked us.
GT: Were you good at corkscrewing?
RB: I think so [laughs] Ask the crew.
GT: Yeah.
RB: It must have been awkward at the back for those poor blighters because I can remember, oh dear I used to put my full force on it.
GT: One veteran told me he was on the can one time when the skipper corkscrewed [laughs] You didn't do that did you?
RB: Do what?
GT: He was on the can.
RB: On the can. No. No. No. I never. I never got out of my seat during any of my operations. Even, even the long trips to Stettin which were nine hours. I never got out of my seat once. I'd rather prefer to sit there and straighten it out.
GT: Did, did you ever have the need for guns? Did the guys ever shoot their guns at all? Night fighters? Or strafing?
RB: No. No. No. No. Never. Never had. Never had to defend an aeroplane at all. No. We never got attacked by the fighter that way.
GT: Because many of the veterans —
RB: The only time, we, we were doing a daylight on a, on a buzz bomb site and I was in the, behind the leader on the left on the leaders left of course we were in formation which was asking for trouble really because the guns were getting a marvellous sight on you from their, you know their, from the radar weren’t they? And they hit my starboard outer and I had to feather it because it was, I had a flight engineer again. Nobby. Nobby Nelson his name was. Nobby was a, he said, ‘Skipper the number, number four is heating, is overheating.’ He said, ‘The temperature is going up,’ and he said, ‘Oh, it keeps still going up.’ He said, ‘Nobby, feather it. Feather it. Feather it.’ I didn't call him Nobby. I always called him engineer because you were, you were told not to. Not to call people by their Christian name on a, on a trip in case, in case you, the idea was but if one of them, say you had a strange gunner or something on board if, you know you got the wrong name so you had to call them by their, what their job was. So you’d say rear gunner. Not Louis or anything. Had to, had to call them by their, by their names.
GT: By their job. Not their nickname.
RB: Yeah. Not names.
GT: And all the way —
RB: Because otherwise you see if you’ve got some stranger on the crew it would be confusing.
GT: Did you have one particular Lancaster aircraft that was yours? Did you?
RB: Yes. M for Mother was ours for a long time. M for Mother was mine.
GT: And what, did you just ask for it? Was that the way it happened? Or —
RB: No. No. No. I didn't ask for it. It was just the way it was allotted. I didn't ask for any favours.
GT: So how old were you during that time?
RB: I was about twenty two, was it? Well, 1920. 1940. No, I was older than that wasn’t I? ’44 I started. Twenty four. Twenty three. Twenty four. Twenty three when I joined. Twenty three when I joined the squadron. Twenty four when I left.
GT: I’m just looking through your logbook, Ralph at the aircraft you flew and was it ND756 seems to feature mostly as the Lancaster you flew.
RB: Yeah. Probably.
GT: M for Mother was it?
RB: M for Mother. Yeah.
GT: Did you ever receive anti-aircraft fire during your time?
RB: Any —
GT: Ack ack.
RB: No. Oh, yes. That one. That once.
GT: Just that once with the engine.
RB: Just the once. That’s the only time I got hit with it.
GT: And no forced landings? No problem getting the aircraft back?
RB: No.
GT: Excellent.
RB: No. Not on Lancs. No.
GT: And what was your normal bombload? Was it something that you were told what you had on board or was it just loaded and you just had to drop it? There was cookies. Five hundred pounders.
RB: Yeah.
GT: Incendiaries.
RB: Yeah. Five hundred pounders. I think we carried a cookie once, once or twice. A thousand pounders. A lot of it was incendiaries of course. A lot of the load was always made up of incendiaries. We always had Window on board of course.
GT: Yeah. Whose job was it to push the Window out?
RB: The flight engineer.
GT: OK. So, I'm looking at your log book and there was trips you did to Paris. Now, were you aware of the Legion of Honour? The French awarding those that flew in operations for the freedom of France?
RB: Aware of what?
GT: Yeah. The Legion of Honour. The medal.
RB: No. No. No. No. No.
GT: Well, you've got some very interesting operations here and obviously the longest trip you did was —
RB: The Stettin one.
GT: The Stettin. Yeah.
RB: I never did a Berlin. Fortunately.
GT: Stettin you did the 29th of August 1944. [unclear] operations. Excellent. So, coming towards the end of your tour you completed thirty operations. Was that correct Ralph?
RB: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And did they, did they tell you that was coming up? That it was —
RB: No. No. I didn't know until I came back from my [pause] I was on, it was only a short one to Le Havre. Actually, I was leading the whole raid on that one. I was the leader of the whole raid. I’ve got a photo of us coming back. But it was not until I landed and then the CO came up and said you’ve finished.
GT: Now who was your CEO at the time?
RB: Leslie. Wing Commander Leslie.
GT: It was Leslie. Ok. And what flight were you in charge of? Were you A, B or C Flight?
RB: I was B. B Flight.
GT: And you led that raid. Was [pause] when you were given the task of leading the raid was that something that Leslie just pointed to you and said, ‘You’re it.’ Or was it your turn or because you were really really good?
RB: No. No. It didn’t. No. Didn't know. Didn’t know. No. I didn’t. No. He didn’t say you were the leader I don’t think. I don’t think so. I can't remember really whether they said you're leading the raid but we did two or three trips to Le Havre at that time, I think. You know. They were trying to knockout, buzz the submarine pens and that sort of thing stuff.
GT: What did you prefer? Night time or daylight raids?
RB: Oh, I preferred [laughs] it’s difficult to say. I think, I think, you know, I think night flying you felt safer in a way that daylights. We weren't convinced that you know we had aerial superiority all the time but once we knew that you know we’d got air superiority and we weren’t going to get attacked daylights were alright. They were quite nice. They were usually short rides anyway the daylight ones. The ones I did in daylight were short. I was lucky there.
GT: Did the, did you meet up with any Americans? I mean once you started doing daylight raids were your raids with the Americans? Or —
RB: No. I didn't see any Americans. No. No.
GT: And when, coming towards the end of your tour I note that you were awarded the DFC. So was that a surprise to you?
RB: It was indeed. It was a complete surprise. Yes. It was. It was. I didn't think I’d done anything special to do that. To be awarded that. I think that, I think, all I can think of they thought I had done a good tour. It wasn’t a special one. You know that I’d been particularly brave or anything.
GT: So, who was your leader who put you up for that?
RB: Hadn’t done any marvellous rescue or anything. Or bring an aircraft back on one engine or something like that. It was a surprise. Yes, it was a surprise.
RB: You always seemed to do a fair bit of work. So, who was your, your commander that would have put you up for that? Besides Leslie?
GT: I don't know whether it was Leslie or the station commander I presume.
RB: It's got to go up the chain so it would have had to have come from the squadron.
GT: The station commander I presume would put you up.
RB: I had a letter from him anyway. You’ve got a copy of it somewhere, Mark. Where is it? Have you seen it?
GT: It’s alright. We’ll have a look. So that, so that’s marvellous. So, so, now, did you receive it in the post or did you go down to London for it?
RB: No. I received it in the post because the king was ill by that time. He was, he was suffering from, what was it he had? Chest troubles, didn't he?
GT: OK.
RB: And I've got a letter from him which it came from with it to say that he was sorry he couldn't deliver it personally.
GT: Nice.
RB: I wasn't sorry about that.
GT: So, OK come to the end of your tour and that was pretty much September 1944. What happened to you from there? Did you continue with your crew? Did they send you somewhere else?
RB: No. No. I was posted to Wing as on instructor on Wellingtons and all my crew were split up in different, different stations. I don't think any of them came to Wing with me.
GT: I suggest that the New Zealanders were sent home.
RB: Different, different OTUs, I think.
GT: Ok. On the training. Yeah.
RB: We did, we did meet up to celebrate my DFC in Aylesbury. We, I got them all to come and there was a little celebration in Aylesbury to celebrate because I used to feel that I didn't deserve it any more than, they did. You know, they were the ones who really deserved the DFC. They were the ones that got me to the target and home and [pause] I don't know.
GT: There was a feeling —
RB: There was a feeling it should be shared.
GT: Yeah. That’s, that’s a very nice sentiment that’s for sure. Did you shout them a few rounds of best bitter did you?
RB: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
GT: Fabulous. Now, I see —
RB: Actually, I don't remember. Max Ruane, I don't think he drank it all. I don’t. Never went, never came to the pub with us. I don’t think he ever drank. Max. No, he didn't. And the mid-upper gunner was a very quiet lad. He was just a country, a country local. Enoch we called him. We called him Enoch. We all, we all the New Zealand fellas called him Enoch. He was a sort of tractor driver really. That was his job in the farmer’s land. Farm land lad.
GT: Well, Ralph I’m moving on through your logbook here and I’m up to May, 1945 and you've been flying Wellington's all that time.
RB: That’s right. Wellingtons again. Yeah.
GT: So that’s a huge amount of —
RB: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: Aircraft time on Wellingtons you had been, you were amassing right through past VE Day even. So, once the war had finished what was, what was flying for you? What was in store for you? Did you do some more flying? Did you stay with the RAF or leave the RAF?
RB: When the war finished I went back to my job in the bank.
GT: Oh, my gosh. Down to, was it Dorset?
RB: No. I was working in Winchester.
GT: And you demobbed.
RB: I was demobbed in December. December 1944.
GT: ’45.
RB: ’45, sorry.
GT: That’s alright. Was that your choice or did the RAF not want you?
RB: My choice. My choice because I had a job to go back to and I had a mother who was in ill health and I was worried about her so I went back home.
GT: Wow. OK, so what was your flying career from there? You were telling me you went to the airlines was it, from there?
RB: Well, I went back in the RAF for a little while on a short service commission.
GT: Wellingtons again.
RB: Eh?
GT: Wellington's again I see. And then, oh and you did some Lancaster time as well at Shawbury.
RB: Oh, that was, that was, that was, that was a passenger —
GT: In Feltwell.
RB: I was training as a navigator. I did a navigation course at Shawbury.
GT: Does that come in handy for your flying training?
RB: That was an advanced nav course.
GT: Yeah. Fabulous. And for airline stuff you moved on to, what aircraft were you flying for the airlines?
RB: I joined, when I left the RAF I joined Hunting, Hunting Aerosurveys who, lovely lovely lovely firm. They were at Borehamwood. Hunting Aerosurveys. And I flew lots of little aircraft there. Percival Prince and Anson. Rapide. Austers. I did a trip with them down to the Antarctic with them on an Catalinas doing a photographic survey in the Antarctic. Just one winter season.
GT: Were you landing on the ice on the water?
RB: No. On the water.
GT: Wow.
RB: On the water. But there were, they were amphibious Catalinas. [unclear] as they called them. And we used to land on the water, put the wheels down in the water and then taxi up a beach where they put some PSP matting down on the beach and we could just taxi up the beach to a little parking area at the top where we used to refuel them. Great fun that was.
GT: And you moved into civilian passenger stuff.
RB: No. No. Then after then I left them and went into civilian passenger stuff, yeah. With BKS.
GT: And what were the kind of aircraft you were flying?
RB: BKS, and then British Airways.
GT: British Airways. What aircraft were you flying for them?
RB: I started off on Dakotas. And then the Ambassador. Airspeed Ambassador. Bristol Britannias and then Tridents. That's what I retired on. Trident's.
GT: So, was the Trident local Europe. Or did that go across to America.
RB: In Europe. No. Europe. All Europe. Short haul we called it. Short haul.
GT: Yeah.
RB: As far as we went, Warsaw was about as far as we went.
GT: And you liked that?
RB: Yeah. I liked that. I loved, I loved the Trident. Lovely aeroplane.
GT: Do —
RB: They were all nice aeroplanes.
GT: Do you know how many hours in total to you in your flying career.
RB: Altogether about eighteen thousand, I think.
GT: That’s astonishing. That’s fabulous. No accidents? No mishaps.
RB: Not civil flying. No. Not civil flying.
GT: That’s wonderful. Yeah. And did you retire officially? What year?
RB: 1980. 1980 I retired. At sixty.
GT: Wow.
RB: I had to retire then because I couldn’t [pause] I could, I could have gone on Dakotas somewhere again but you had to mind I couldn’t fly anything over that I think it was thirty thousand was the maximum you could try over the age of sixty wasn’t it?
GT: Gosh. And since your retirement you've, you’ve just been kicking up the heels.
RB: Yes, I haven’t done any flying since.
GT: Yes. So you have had two lovely daughters and a son in your personal life.
RB: That's right.
GT: And obviously they're looking after you well.
RB: Yes. They are. Yeah. They are, yes. Mark especially. Mark and Lindsay are especially looking after me.
GT: Fabulous. We have Mark here and its been fabulous for him to be able to allow me to come and talk and interview you. And for the 75 Squadron Archives we have not known of you until last year so it's been fabulous to know.
RB: Known what?
GT: We’ve not known of you.
RB: Not known of me.
GT: 75 Squadron Association both of the UK and New Zealand did not know that you were about. One of your crew Charles Busfield was a good friend of mine but sadly he died three years ago and he would always say to me he always wondered where Brum was.
RB: Did he? Yes. Nice of him.
GT: I know your nickname.
RB: Nice chap.
GT: Was Brum now.
RB: Lovely.
GT: Charles was.
RB: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And it goes to show obviously all you gentlemen are fabulous. Well, Brum if there anything else that you'd like to chinwag about feel free. I don't want to take up anymore of your valuable time but certainly public about history is of value to us to know how you fared, how you survived and I wonder d find what you search. Is there anything perhaps you remember that’s poignant of your time with Bomber Command?
RB: I can’t think of anything really.
GT: You served your King and country.
RB: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad I looked at it that way. Yes. Thank you very much anyway. Its been a long long old life hasn’t it?
GT: That’s fabulous. And your, and you next birthday how old will you be? You’re currently ninety —
RB: Ninety eight.
GT: Ninety eight. Fabulous. So, I thank you for your service and your time.
RB: Thank you.
GT: And I’ll complete our e-mail now, err interview and I know the international Bomber Command centre will certainly value your input and your story. Your history, your life and I too say thank you.
RB: What will you do with that now?
GT: The international Bomber Command Archives will register it.
RB: Will it?
GT: Yeah. And they’ll send you a letter.
RB: Oh, will they? That’s lovely. Thank you very much. Thank you then.
GT: Thank you very much Ralph.
RB: Ok. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ralph Brumwell
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABrumwellR180630
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:44:48 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph Brumwell volunteered for the RAF Voluntary Reserve in 1939. When war was declared he was immediately called up and was posted to 218 Squadron at RAF Marham. Returning from an operation they were shot down by an intruder Junkers 88. On landing the aeroplane immediately caught fire. The front gunner was trapped in his turret and died in hospital. Ralph injured his arm and until it healed he was placed on non-operational duties. When he returned to operational flying he was posted to 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal. After the war he flew with civilian airlines.
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
Germany--Düsseldorf
Poland--Szczecin
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1944-08-29
1944-09
1945
218 Squadron
75 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crash
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
pilot
RAF Marham
RAF Mepal
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/703/10103/ABeechingJB180118.1.mp3
47d4231ede11edc693eeebb6482fe40a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Beeching, John Benjamin
J B Beeching
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Beeching (b. 1923, 1339821 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 169 and 627 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Beeching, JB
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: This is Thursday, 18th January 2018 and I am with Mr John Benjamin Beeching at his place of work, The Cawthron Institute, in Nelson, New Zealand. John was born 19 October 1923 in London, England and joined the RAF in August 1941, his service number 1339821, and as an aircrew pilot to be gained the nickname Curly. John’s flying career was from 1942 to 1946 and he flew more than twelve different aircraft types. John, thank you for inviting me to have a talk about your career today.
JB: I have to say [Indecipherable.]
GT: Great John. So how about you give me a bit of your history about a - where did you grow up and then why did you join the RAF and how, and so on, please.
JB: Well, needless to say I grew up in that time when, at the age of fifteen, sixteen, I was in the Blitz so I received bombing from both ends, [chuckle] not only receiving them but also delivered them! This was in 1939, when the war broke out, and at that stage I was working in an engineering workshop which axiomatically of course went from making arms and we were making bullet dies and things like that. After a year that got pretty boring and a good friend of mine, Billy Campbell said we’ve had enough of this, let’s go and join the Army and do some real war work. So we went to the Recruiting Office in Romford, which is also in Essex, and we had a very brief and cursory medical examination and a very dapper little sergeant said okay son, he said to Bill, we’ll tell you when we need you, and he said to me I’m sorry lad, your feet are flat for the Army, we can’t take you so go back to your engineering job, I’m sure you’ll be doing some useful war work. So, I thought no, rats to this and right across the alleyway there was the, you okay there? So I walked across this alleyway where the Air Force recruiting place was, and I said I’d like to join the RAF, and they said oh yes, what do you do son? I said well at the moment I’m an engineer, he said ah, that’s very good, we need engineers in the Air Force. He says don’t want to fly do you, with a very crafty look on his face. Now don’t forget this was 1941 when aircrew at a premium and we were losing lots, so I said yes I can, I’d love to do that, so he gave us another quick medical, he didn’t look at my feet in this particular case and he said we’ll let you know when we need you. So I think it was about a month later and I was sent to Weston Super Mare where we had a two day medical, a very, very strict medical and I was given my number, 1339821, and they said you are now in the Volunteer Reserve and will be called up in due course, which we were in actual fact, on April the 20th April 1942, which by a great coincidence, happened to be Hitler’s birthday. I was recruited at St Johns Wood where all aircrew were, Aircrew Receiving Centre, otherwise known as ACRC, and billeted in a very palatial hotel which was no longer palatial after we’d been in touch with it and we were there oh, a couple of weeks I suppose, and then sent off to a holding unit at Ludlow in Shropshire under canvas, which was a holiday, because they didn’t know what to do with us so we were building roads which went nowhere and all sorts of stuff. Anyway I think it was, must have been the spring of 1942, late spring, maybe June, I went to my Initial Training Wing at Stratford upon Avon, lovely place, where we did our square bashing at the front of the new Shakespeare Theatre there, which is a lovely place. We used to go punting on the Avon in the evening, it was really nice. And at the end of our ITW we did a ten hour grading course on Tiger Moths and I didn’t know how I’d come out of that one because I didn’t think I’d do too well, but apparently they must have thought it was sufficient to carry me on to, carry on training as a pilot. And from there we were given a couple of weeks’ leave and then from our leave we went to the massive [emphasis] holding camp at Heaton Park in Manchester, where all crew went, I think there were about thirty odd thousand went there, and some went to Southern Rhodesia to train as pilots and navigators and the rest of us went to Canada. And we went to Canada in December 1942, which was a bad year for u-boats, we were in a large liner called the Andes, which has been here to New Zealand a couple of times during the war, and we were way up among the icebergs we went, [swishing sound effect] due north for a couple of days I think, away from submarines or whatever, [cough] and we landed at Halifax, Nova Scotia on Christmas Day 1942. On the way to Monckton in this massive train, in the snow, we hit a car on the level crossing with seven Mounties in it and killed the lot. They was splattered all over, the blood, it was blood and guts all over the place: it was a lovely introduction to Canada. Anyway we went to Monckton, we weren’t there very long and then we were sent to the Prairies. I went to a place called Virden, Manitoba, Number 19 EFTS, and where we did our training on winter-clad Tiger Moths. In other words they were fitted with skis and a canopy and a very rudimentary heater which didn’t work very well, and did sixty hours on those although that was interrupted in my case because I had a punctured ear drum flying with a cold, and spent the whole month in hospital. [Cough] And at the end of that, that would be the spring of 1943 I suppose, I went to my Service Flying Training School at Brandon, Manitoba, which was east of Virden, about eighty miles down the road I suppose, and continued my training on Cessna Bobcats, which the Canadians called Cranes, well they were otherwise AT12a’s and finally wound up getting my wings in August 1943, it must have been. And [telephone] then from Brandon, sporting our pilot’s wings, which made us all as happy as Larry and very proud of course, and promoted to sergeant in my case, some were commissioned but they obviously divined that I wasn’t going to make very good officer material, which was probably quite the case, but I never was anyway, and went back to Monckton. We were there very briefly, and then back across the Atlantic, this time on the Queen Elizabeth! Which wasn’t exactly a luxury cruise because there was twenty one thousand others on board on the same sailing! Which is a lot of people, in fact it was half the population of Nelson, in numbers. And it only took us what, bit under five days to cross the Atlantic. Wound back up at Gourock and then back and then all the aircrew that went back from Canada, they went to Harrogate in Yorkshire, where we went for a selection board and they said John Beeching you are, been selected to be an elementary flying instructor. I thought oh my god, that’s the last thing on this earth I wanted to be, you know! So I had nothing to argue with of course, so we were pushed to Marshalls Flying Field in Cambridge, I forget the number of the Flying School it was, but I think it was number four I think. I hated it, absolutely, I’ve got to tell you, hate Tiger Moths, I still hate the rotten things. They were cold and draughty, I didn’t like aerobatics very much anyway, so. Anyway, short of becoming a real dyed in the wool malingerer, [laugh] I managed to get myself thrown off and they said don’t you tell anybody, you know, that you’ve been scrubbed off of an instructor’s course! Blah, blah, blah. And I got a below average rating for and so this is very close to Christmas 1943 and I got successfully scrubbed off this awful, awful instructor’s course. Back to Harrogate [cough] spent a few weeks there, had nothing to do with us for a while, so they sent us on these strange assault courses and so forth, and they made a mistake of issuing us with thunderflashes, which we all secreted and used to put under people’s beds and things, which was all good fun. Don’t forget we were only what, nineteen, twenty years old, so we were only kids anyway, so it was a small part of it. And another selection board and they said well, we’ve noticed that your night vision is acceptable so you’ll be selected for night fighter pilot training so thought that’s more my thing, [cough] so from there I spent about, oh, a month I think, at the, at Cranwell which in peacetime is an Officers’ Training College, but in the wartime it was just another flying field. And now I was introduced to the Blenheim I, which was a lovely old aeroplane to fly, very safe, very easy, and after an introduction on those I went to Spittalgate at Grantham, which was an advanced flying unit where we flew Blenheim Is and Ansons and Oxfords. Flew Ansons and Oxfords on beam approach training, things like that, so we did quite a few hours there. Following which, we went to Cranfield and did a conversion course from Blenheims via the Bristol Beaufort which is a terrible, terrible aeroplane cause the ones we had were the early ones with Bristol Pegasus engines. Don’t know if they were, but mostly underpowered, terrible aeroplanes, but we only had to do ten hours on those and then they graduated us on to Beaufighters which were lovely aeroplanes, I loved the Beaufighters, you know. They’ve got me sitting in the front with these two enormous great Hercules engines, one on either side with about sixteen hundred horsepower each side, and they were lovely and there I crewed up with my navigator, Fred Herbert, who flew with me for the next few years. He was the only navigator I had [cough] and it got so he refused to fly with anybody else. Whether that’s a recommendation or not, I don’t know, but that’s the way it was. If I went sick he went sick [laugh] and we flew together right through there and then at Cranfield we spent a fair bit of time at the satellite field which was a place called Twinwoods Farm, which received notoriety because it was where Glen Miller took off from and Fred and I were the last people to ever see Glen Miller alive. We saw him climb into that Norseman, in December 1943 and, no ’44, yeah, ’44, yeah, December 1944 and he vanished and was never seen again. He had a civilian pilot and there’s been all kinds of speculation and stories of what might have happened to Glen Miller, but nobody ever really knows about that. So he joins just another one of the thousands that we lost in the North Sea. So from there we went back to Cranfield and then we were given leave and I was going to enjoy leave over Christmas, but we got called to join 169 Squadron at Great Massingham in December and that’s where I started my operational flying, from there, on Bomber Support with 100 Group, which is 100 Group Bomber Command.
GT: And your aircraft type for there was?
JB: Hey?
GT: And your aircraft type, that you moved to, from the Beaufighter to?
JB: Oh to the Mossie, yes. Yes well my transit to the Mosquito was pretty quick, I had thirty five minutes dual on the Mosquito. That was all. I kid you, didn’t even solo the same day because the weather closed in and it was another day and a half before I got my hands on a Mosquito to fly, so, and we, they only had two Mark III dual Mosquitos there at Cranfield, so nobody got much dual anyway. But anyway, they were, after a Beaufighter I found an easier plane to fly and had to watch some of the swinging on take off and landing that’s all, like all tailwheel aircraft are, but okay, and so I flew, like I say, in my log book I’ve got the serial numbers of fifty seven different Mossies and I never scrapped one, so that’s something of a record. [Cough]
GT: It is. You brought them all home, that was the main.
JB: Yes, and anyway, at the end of the war ended up with sixteen operations over Germany and at the end of the war we thought oh well, we’ll have a nice rest now and they said no you’re not, you’re going to Okinawa. And so they transferred us from there to, being Mosquito people, to Woodhall Spa, 627 Squadron, where 617 [emphasis] Squadron was stationed at that time because the old Dambuster Lancasters was still parked there, at Woodhall Spa. Did you ever Woodhall Spa? And the Bell pub, you know and er, you know the old Bell there, lovely place.
GT: So, can we just, go back John, for you, much better about your sorties and your operations you did. What’s the targets, what did they give you as a role to do?
JB: We were very individual, we didn’t take off, all together, we were classified as bomber support, and it was bomber support, we’d normally take off after [emphasis] the bomber stream left, cause we were much, we were a hundred miles an hour faster than Lancasters, and our intention and purpose was to get to the target before them and keep and sweep the sky clear of German nightfighters really, which was very successful. The Germans were absolutely terrified of us because we had the legs on them and we had the radar on them so, and you know, we were really good. But 100 Group, they were loaded up with electronic gear, mainly to jam German transmissions, that’s, you know, German transmissions, which they did and if you read that book, ‘100 Group - the Birth of Electronic Warfare’, you’ll read, it’s really worthwhile, and it takes you through that much more precisely than I could ever do anyway, but the, they had the main, apart from the Mosquitos that were in about five different stations they had Halifaxes, and 100 Group, and B17s. Two of the B17 crew people they lived right here in Nelson, both dead now, bless ‘em, just died of old age. Though Doug was a prisoner of war, he did a whole tour then was shot down on his second tour. He was a gunner, tail gunner and he um, survived the war and lived here until about three years ago, when he died.
GT: So the Mosquitos you were flying and your operational sorties, what armament did you have?
JB: All right, the Mosquitos we had, initially they were converted Mark Vis with Mark IV radar in the nose, like a sort of spearhead, you might have seen pictures of them, and then we graduated to Mark 10s, was British designed, American built and we had a big bulbous nose on the Mosquitos - remember those - with the scanner, about the size of that fan over there I suppose, and they was really good because pick up aircraft twenty miles away, it was really superb radar probably as good as they’ve got today almost, I would say.
GT: So what guns did you have?
JB: We had, well we didn’t have the machine guns because we had the radar in the nose, but we had four 20 millimetre cannon, they could do an awful lot of damage, they would demolish a house you know, [laugh] they were big guns, twenty millimetre.
GT: In the nose or [indecipherable]
JB: Underneath. If you look at a picture of a Mosquito, you’ll see that, you know, they were clear of the propellors so they didn’t have to re-synchronise so when you fired them they all started together, then they’d all sort of break up the noise and swing the nose and plane about, it was quite a thing: but they’re good things.
GT: How many rounds a gun did you have?
JB: I think we carried about, I think we carried about four hundred rounds altogether, about a hundred rounds a gun, I think.
GT: And you knew how long you had, I suppose.
JB: I think the rate of fire was about nine hundred and something rounds a minute, so it wasn’t a very long burst. We never fired on Dutch people, we never had the chance to be quite honest with you, we used to strafe people on bicycles.
GT: So your sorties, you were strafing more than you were trying to shoot down aircraft?
JB: Oh no, we did low levels as well as the high stuff, we’d fly anywhere from thirty thousand feet right down to ground level almost, you know. And of course we also did a lot of spoof raiding which carried target indicators, and we’d drop those at a place where the raid wasn’t going to be, but it was, the idea was to get the Germans to think that’s where the main raid was going to be, so we dropped couple of tons of target indicators to get the Germans going and of course the main stream would turn off and go somewhere else, which was all part and parcel of the deceit, you know.
GT: Did you use Window at all?
JB: We didn’t. 100 Group, thousands of tons, the Liberator would carry about seven ton of the stuff., you know, they’d chuck it out in great bundles which was good , it certainly dumbfounded the Germans much of the time, although towards the end of the war they did sort of overcome it to some extent, [lighter noise] they did overcome it to a great extent, but it worked good and then we had, then they used, ringer operators, you know, to come up cause we were using operators who could speak German giving phoney instructions to German nightfighters. Course but they, the German nightfighters were active right till the end of the war. In March I think it was, ‘45, the Germans did a big night raid on England, in East Anglia, and it was called Operation Gisela and they clobbered quite a few of our blokes, some of our blokes were killed, right on the circuit, you know, so it was quite, so they didn’t give up. As you know, the Germans fought almost to the last day.
GT: So their fighters were a mixture of what, Messerschmitt 210s, 410s, Junkers.
JB: Operation Gisela they had were Me109s and Fw190s, which apparently were a difficult aeroplane to fly, and even harder to fly at night and their accident rate was much, was, better than ours, they killed themselves better than we could, and they had, of course, towards, right near the end they had these wonderful Henschel night fighters and stuff which was really, really good and also Messerschmitt 262s, which they used as night fighters and in fact the Me262s squadrons were shooting down Mosquitos, they shot down about thirty all together, so they were quite active right up to the few last days of the war.
GT: So did you know that when you were flying?
JB: No. Didn’t even know of the existence of an Me262 until after the war.
GT: You never saw one flash by and whatnot?
JB: Oh no, never saw. No, no.
GT: So they never gave you that kind of intel?
JB: Whatever intelligence I’ve been, by and large, we were kept right up with stuff like Me163s and that sort of thing that shot straight up in the air. But no, they never mentioned Me262s, whether they were keeping it from us on purpose, I’ve got no idea, but I don’t recall ever being told about the Me262, or it would certainly have stuck in my memory. I would think, anyway.
GT: So did you have the chance of using your guns in an aerial battle at all?
JB: No, only on ground stuff, factories and so forth on bright moonlight nights.
GT: I’m interested that Mosquito-wise, okay, you had the weaponry, did you actually do any training to do aerial combat as opposed to strafing?
JB: Oh yes. Yes, we did air to air gunnery. We had a range over the Wash, and they had these yellow painted Martinets on the squadron. I remember that because landed one on a foggy morning, he landed and floated into the side of the hangar. He wasn’t killed but the man in the hangar was. So that’s how I remember how we were, how the target was, load carrying [indecipherable]. We didn’t have enough practice on air to air shooting, or the ground shooting really for that matter.
GT: Did you shoot the banner at all? Did you get shots on?
JB: Oh yes, I good quite good at it, but it was, my percentage was very good.
GT: And you had a high percentage, sorry, did you say?
JB: Yeah, I was good at it, quite good. It was good fun. Course you had to turn, you know, deflection was the thing of course, that was the thing with, most of the time everybody wanted to get right behind somebody, up the bum didn’t they, and shoot them, which is what happened at night, because we could get right in, close, with our radar and we could see our prey, quarry, invariably a Lancaster or something, and they could never see us, but they were looking down against the dark ground, we were looking up, we could see the stars and we could see their blur exhaust stumps all glowing in the dark and you think if we’d been Germans. Of course the Germans had the Shräge musik, you know, the upfiring cannons, which we never knew about, and that was very, very bad news, because we lost a lot of Lancasters solely because of Shräge musik. And they, as I say, that, we often, we get so, we used to do what was, I used to like it actually, it was called night fighter affiliation and they’d take a Halifax off from Swanton Morley or somewhere and we’d meet them over Norfolk somewhere and go do runs on them to let the gunners see and often we’d get from here to that cross just about and they still hadn’t seen us. Cause I remember one night we got up close behind this Halifax and he was sitting there waiting, waiting for it to go into a corkscrew and he called up, he says hello Kaolin 26, he said, I think we’ve lost you so I turned on the landing lights from about fifty yards behind him! I bet that gunner still wakes up at night, two million candle power! [Laughter] So that was things we used to do, but it just meant how vulnerable our blokes were, cause we really were close and he knew that we were coming, and he still didn’t see us at all. So there we are.
GT: That’s something. Were your Mosquitos also able to carry bombs at all, and rockets?
JB: Yes.
GT: So you always took off with bombs and rockets?
JB: Not always, but sometimes. Some duty, if we wanted to do a spoof with bombs, we carried two five hundred pound bombs, or target indicators, one or the other. We didn’t carry anything big till we got to Woodhall Spa when we carried, when we had the Mosquito, the Mark IVs [indecipherable] the pregnant tadpole, you know, d’you see pictures of those? They would carry the four thousand pound bombs, but we weren’t allowed to, apparently the Mossies we [emphasis] had weren’t made to carry, although we had the bulging bomb bays, they couldn’t carry the four thousand pound bomb. To me, I don’t know why, we had a notice up in the cockpit: ‘Even PO Prune would not carry a four thousand bomb in this aircraft’. So whatever the reason was I never found out.
GT: I don’t expect the airframe could hold it. So something that’s always been touted was that the use of the Mosquito to bomb Berlin. Now if, for instance, the RAF managed to only produce Mosquitos instead of their four engined bombers, would they have done the business? What’s your position on that?
JB: Oh yes, absolutely. I mean don’t forget the Americans, those piddling little bombs they carried, they were only five hundred pound bombs: they were next to useless. I mean until they carried big bombs, those five hundred pound bombs, they just dug little holes in the ground. Incendiaries were the thing of course. What we carried was a great big blast bomb, blow a lot of buildings down then set fire to ‘em, and that was the point, after all, what we were trying to do was finish the war, you know, and Mosquito carrying two ton bomb, they would make two trips in a night. It was only what, about two hours to Berlin, two hours back, four hours, refuel, another bomb and go away again, you know, another crew and so that was good. There was only two men in a Mosquito, there was ten men in a B17, and they both carried the same bomb load.
GT: So, do you think perhaps that Bomber Command could have changed their philosophy to go to?
JB: I do now [emphasis]. Of course you didn’t know at the time.
GT: May have been better to switch strategies.
JB: We argued about what Bomber Command did and how valuable it was, it’s never going to be resolved. Harris said you could finish the war with bombers, but you couldn’t, without men on the ground, I think that was proved in the war anyway.
GT: Set fire.
JB: We certainly aided towards the quickness of it, with all of the stuff we did to railways and transport and goodness knows what we done. We were allowed, after the war, to fly over Germany and have a look and see what was done; it was awful, it really was, war. I don’t know, the whole thing was pretty bad I suppose, when you think about it. But it was, to me it was pretty distressing to see that, acres, square miles all these houses just the walls standing, you know, all scurrying about like ants, clearing up the mess, you know. Terrible, absolutely terrible. Your whole thinking was in those days, like I say, obviously in London during the Blitz I saw houses demolished then, so getting a bit of own back didn’t seem to be helping a lot. Which it wasn’t.
GT: It was the means of surviving and shortening the thing.
JB: Yes. Anyway come what may, the war’s end, they said you’re going, when we went there, we were going to go to Okinawa, on the Tiger Force. What I didn’t realise that the Americans didn’t really want us there because they had enormous [emphasis] Air Force on Okinawa. It was really [emphasis] enormous. They had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of B29s and Mustangs by the hundreds and they didn’t want the RAF there at all. It was their war and they wanted to keep it. Anyway, they dropped the atomic bomb so we didn’t go. So we thought ah! Finished! We’ve finished our flying! They said no you’re not, you’re going instructing, you’re going now and I was instructing on blind landing approach for the next twelve months almost. On Oxfords, on a mobile flight, 1552 BABS Flight: Beam BABS Beam Approach Beacon System. They evolved a very efficient and cheap beam landing system called BABS which used Eureka Rebecca system, beacon and homing and beacons and they just, yes, instead of killing everybody. Yes. [interference] Well BABS, it was, we had this mobile flight, of four Oxfords, which was very handy, cause they were all over England and we went to, we were teaching Transport Command pilots on how to land, on bad weather landings and as I say, it was a very efficient system, it just involved a little pickup Austin with a kind of shed on the back, and they ran it two little metal grooves at the end of the runway and shot it up and we could pick up the signal. Because, why we were chosen that job, it was the ideal job suited for night fighter crews because the navigator was at the back twiddling his knobs and he could tell you left, left, right, right, whatever, and that worked fine and so we were sort of involved with that for nearly twelve months, and we flew every day apart from bad wind. That’s how good it was. So fog didn’t stop us at all, in fact it took us longer to taxi out to find the runway than it did to fly and it was really that good. It was excellent, I thought, we had no shaky dos there. Like I say I flew nearly a thousand hours and never had an accident. The only thing ever went wrong was on an old Blenheim I, when one wheel wouldn’t come down, had to land on one wheel, but that wasn’t too bad, pretty harmless.
GT: And then you didn’t catch the [indecipherable].
JB: No, no. They said land on the grass, don’t land on the runway, you’ll score it up something, it was on Somerfield Track anyway, and landed on one wheel on two points, so one wheel and the wings slowly dropped down and then I was looking at the propeller with the ends all curled up, the wing had a [indecipherable] great big slow ground loop and just stopped and that was it. Plane was flying two days later, on the flat. That was about the only bad thing ever happened.
GT: So what aircraft were you doing all of this BABS training in?
JB: Oxfords. Which they, they were a good aeroplane for a trainer I think, ideal anyway. But Ansons were probably easier to fly, was Ansons. The queen of the sky as far as I was concerned. You could do no wrong in an Anson. They were just delightful.
GT: You and Fred [indecipherable] were friends with the gentleman who’s created the only Anson I still flying in the world.
JB: Oh, I don’t say I’m a friend, but I’ve spoken to him, in fact I loaned him my Anson pilots’ notes, I’ve still got them at home by the way, my pilots notes for the Anson. But I’ve got pilots notes on most of the aeroplanes I flew, Beaufighters, Mosquitos, even got one for Lancaster. You know, you collect these things and keep them. Seventy years later.
GT: Fair. So once you’d done your instructing piece there for these transport pilots, what happened to you then?
JB: Oh that was, I got out in about August 1946 I think.
GT: Did you want to go? Did you need to go?
JB: Yes, I’d had enough. Yeah, I thought, well, I was a mug in a way, I should have stayed I suppose, you know, the Air Force was no longer like it was during the war, you know. During the week you do what you like [cough], dress how you like, don’t care [indecipherable] the week, but they don’t like that in peacetime and so I wasn’t sorry to get out.
GT: Did you commission?
JB: No.
GT: So what did you retire as, rank-wise?
JB: Warrant Officer. Which was a good rank. Pay was the same as a Flight Lieutenant, without the mess fees, you know. You only paid six shillings a month, they were paying about six pounds a month, so that was good.
GT: So what was the last station you served at? Can you?
JB: Um, Fort Sutton. No, Melbourne, East Yorkshire. Either Melbourne or Fort Sutton – they’re both in East Yorkshire, I’m not sure which one, but I think it must have been Melbourne we went from there to discharge Wembley. They gave us a suit and money.
GT: What was your last Mosquito trips then? When was that?
JB: Well that was, actually the last one the squadron flew on I was on leave, so I didn’t go and that was the last raid of the war full stop. It was on May the 7th it was, and that was on Kiel and two of our blokes were shot down on that one. My mate Doug Waite and his navigator, Doug’s still alive. He lives in Somerset. There’s only him and another chap in Cromer, they were the last two surviving pilots for that squadron, who I know, are still alive, I don’t think there’s any others. And that was my last trip must been, what, March, April, be April 1945 I suppose. Can’t even remember where it was. The longest trip we made was on [indecipherable] which was six hours and ten minutes which is a long time. We carried a lot of fuel. We carried seven hundred and sixteen gallons, which is what, about three thousand litres.
GT: So what’s the total flying time in a Mosquito?
JB: Well, we carried seven hundred and sixteen gallons, and each Merlin burns a gallon a minute, so that goes seven hours and I say, we had six hours and ten minutes and we still didn’t run short of fuel. They were good on fuel, you had to be stupid run out of gas. We carried one hundred gallon drop tanks.
GT: Your concentration for that long in a very cold aircraft?
JB: Oh no! They weren’t, they were never cold. The Mosquito was made of wood and were well insulated cause they were made of wood, and had a nice heater and was quite comfortable. I flew in a battledress, I never flew in a flying suit, nor did Fred, it was really good. No, no there was no problem there, but it was, often you were flying in cloud for four or five hours and that was very taxing because you got this awful effect where you thought you were flying straight and level but in fact you were turning.
GT: So your navigator, where did he sit? Next to you or down below?
JB: Sat in the Beaufighter behind, in the Mosquito, to the side.
GT: And he was doing all of your navigating through the scopes?
JB: No, no, did that on his knee on the back of an envelope [laughter], well he had all this radar gear in front of him which sort of eased out, he had no room, had this great big visor like this, and used to go to sleep in there and stuff, I knew when he was going to sleep, I could hear his breathing getting slower. But I didn’t mind, I could find my way home all right, you know. We had very good navigational aid - Gee, which was excellent, Gee was really good and we had a very good VHS system and they would home you from England, if you were high enough, they would give you a course for home right from the UK, it was a piece of cake. Navigation was never a problem for us. Never.
GT: Thousands of aircraft in the air at once, that’s phenomenal to keep you all on track!
JB: Yes, it was good. You know, when you think the sheer logistics of that was absolutely mind-boggling, you know.
GT: And Fred was saying to you left, right, left, right, or was he giving a heading?
JB: No, no, he was just saying alter course to oh nine two, make three hundred on the way home, you know, and there was no problem, because had a nice big sort of compass thing, you know, electric gyro. No we never had any, the only time we did have a couple of, I remember we, coming back from Germany and we come over this, we come across the land and I said to Fred where’s that, and he said oh, that’ll be the East Anglian coast and all of a sudden we were over the sea again, I said that must be the fastest crossing of England you’ve ever seen. In in actual fact, it was the strong wind, it was the Friesian Islands, in Holland, so it took us another half an hour to get across there, you know. I said we’re lost! He said we’re not lost, he says, I’m just a little uncertain of our whereabouts. [Chuckle] So I said in that case, I said how high is Ben Nevis. He says four thousand four hundred feet, I said then we’ll fly at five thousand four hundred feet. Which I did. Flying into the high ground was not difficult being in the UK. The Mossie was pretty fast, and it would get lost pretty fast too [indecipherable].
GT: That was an achievement getting every one of your Mosquito aircraft back without scratching one. Pretty awesome achievement. So when did you last see Fred, when you?
JB: Ah well Fred, when, after the war, I went back to Canada. I lived there seven years actually. Fred followed me, but he joined the RCMP, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and rose to the rank of sergeant, and actually was Pierre Trudeau’s chauffeur for about three years, and we lost track of each other then and in actual fact we, Wendy and I, my wife, we have visited Fred a couple of times, in Canada, but he died about four years ago now. That was the last I saw of dear old Fred. He was from South Shields, he was, up in Newcastle, you know. He was two weeks older than me. His birthday was on October 5th.
GT: It was pretty awesome for you to team up with somebody that you trusted and trusted his life with you too. So once you’d done some work in Canada, how come you’ve ended up in New Zealand after all this time?
JB: Well, I was a keen motorcycle man, I was, incidentally that’s my dad there in that picture, believe it or not, and yeah, I went back to Canada, and there for seven years and I was a very keen motorcyclist and I was the national organiser for the Vincent Owners Club. You’ve heard of the Vincent, motor bike, I was the national organiser for the Vincent Owners Club for the whole of the United States and Canada. Towards the end of that time this chap Oscar van Dogen wrote to me from New Zealand, he said he wanted make a, do a working holiday in Canada, could I give him somebody to write to? I said yeah, write to me, and we corresponded with each other for the next sixty years! And he died about two years ago. [Laugh] So if you want the stories, I’ve got them, man!
GT: And that’s what you did when you come to New Zealand?
JB: Ah, when I came to New Zealand, this was in 1953, I landed the same day as the Queen did, on Christmas 1953. She was on the Gothic, I was on the Wanganella from Australia, and then, there was a dearth of people, of tradesmen particularly in New Zealand, you could do anything you liked and work where you liked, so I got this job in engineering place in Christchurch, A. R. Harris and they made washing machines, the Simplicity washing machines, and I worked there for a couple of years and then I got sick of that and went and got a job with the government. I was a weights and measures inspector, which was another little escapade you see.
GT: Whereabouts was that? In Wellington?
JB: No. In Christchurch. I was transferred to Wellington and then from Wellington I was transferred to Nelson, and from Nelson they was going to transfer me to Auckland and I said I don’t want to go to Auckland and they said you’ve got to go to Auckland and I said no I don’t – I resign! So I did and that was in, what, 1960 something, so I went to an engineering place in, down at Port Nelson, and I was there for sixteen years. So, one thing and another.
GT: Now you’re, there’s been in Nelson, New Zealand there, a very strong on Bomber Command group of people that used to get together.
JB: We had about twenty here when I first started with the local branch of the New Zealand Bomber Command Association, and we’ve got what three or four or something: natural attrition shall we call it.
GT: And only a matter of months ago, your group, you’ve decided just to have your last lunch together, and there’s been a bit of publicity about that.
JB: Yes. [indecipherable]
GT: Which is, I think really across the country, many Brevet Clubs are down to several chaps only.
JB: Yeah, well I fell out, we have no Brevet Club. We did have one and it closed and people joined the Christchurch one, but I fell out with the Brevet Club in Christchurch. Well we, I’m the patron of the local RSA Branch and we, also we have a Trust Fund and we also give the cadets a thousand bucks or two thousand dollars a year each, all the cadet units, and Christchurch are sitting on nearly a million dollars and they didn’t dispense any money to the cadet units at all, so I wrote and said you know, get off your backsides and give them some money and they came back all guns loaded - don’t you tell us how to spend our money blah, blah, blah! So I said stuff that and gave it away.
GT: Yeah, so.
JB: I don’t know, are they active? Did they have a Bomber Command Association in Christchurch? I don’t recall any of them going to the unveiling at Green Park.
GT: It’s the National Bomber Command Centre that’s based, sorry Association based out of Auckland and there is barely five Brevet Bomber Command chaps in Christchurch left, so.
JB: No Association as such.
GT: No, they’re part of the national, New Zealand one. They do have a Brevet Club however, that’s out at Wigram air base.
JB: I know they do. But I don’t belong to it. I resigned.
GT: No. It’s very small now.
JB: Well I hope they doing something useful with their money cause that really got up my snorter that did. Really did. I thought well what they going to do with all that money? Cause they wound up with about half a million and they had about a hundred and seventy members I think, and I thought well, for goodness’ sake, you know, put it to some use, where it’s going to do some good, what better use than the cadet units, you know, I thought. That was my thinking. [indecipherable]
GT: Now, before, recently, well 2012 I guess, where the Bomber Command Memorial in London there was something that for us, the New Zealand Bomber Command Association, were planning on moving everybody over there that could go, but the New Zealand took it away from us and planned their own trip and took their own thirty odd gentlemen that they deemed could go and they looked after them very well and their decision was only New Zealanders could go.
JB: We stayed in the same hotel.
GT: And then I understand that there were several of you RAF chaps that emigrated here that were.
JB: I was the only RAF chap on that particular trip.
GT: So you managed to get over there though.
JB: Oh well, the lovely people of Nelson, they raised twenty two thousand dollars. G J Gardner gave us ten grand, towards it. There were people all over the world sent money, so we said my wife Wendy could go too So Wendy and I went, with Air New Zealand stayed at the Acorn Hotel, at the, in London, in the same hotel as the people there, having said that.
GT: I helped a little bit with the organisation for 75 Squadron sort of thing, the chaps, and I was in the Green Park at the back. So I understand you managed to get a seat at the front!
JB: Wasn’t quite at the front, well was about two rows back. I didn’t quite shake hands with Queenie, but gave her the nod, you know.
GT: Definitely.
JB: Got quite, took a lot of pictures, wonderful pictures of the occasion.
GT: Fascinating day. My RAF colleague and I were at the pub and waited till about seven pm, then we went down to the Memorial after they’d had opening and we had throngs of people, cause we were in uniform, asking.
JB: We went to that pub called The Three Tuns, was just down the road, a really nice pub, people there. Lovely hotel, the breakfasts were marvellous!
GT: I’m pleased you got to go over there to see that because many had not that opportunity from New Zealand.
JB: Definity a must to see, gorgeous place for sure.
GT: For sure, and all credit to those folk who organised and got that there and to look up at the statues of the chaps.
JB: That, well to me it’s a shame that the people who actually cast those never got any credit at all. It should have said where that was, where the foundry was or something, because it’s some of the finest casting I’ve ever seen in my life: everything was perfect. It was really, really good. I thought well, what a shame, they’ve given the name of the bloke who designed it but they didn’t give any credit to the people who actually made it, you know. Anyway.
GT: You, on this recording have now just given them the kudos.
JB: Well I reckon, well they needed, they should get some kudos, because it’s so, there was things on that which people would never pick up. For example, I noticed in the, down the flying boot of one of the gunners was the toggle from the cord for cocking a Browning and I bet very few people would see that, you know, the wooden handle with the loop on the end for pulling back the breech, you know. I thought I wonder how many people will spot that? So whoever did it was very, very good on the design.
GT: I understand that they, each individual airman of that trade, or job, they had veterans model. Marvellous. That’s great to hear. Thank you very much for that.
JB: No, I was absolutely chuffed with that.
GT: Now I also note that you have been in some way been involved, or been able to see at least, the Mosquitos that have been created in here New Zealand for flying.
JB: Yes, I have. I’ve been close to them but unfortunately I thought they might have given me a trip round the circuit or something, but no luck, maybe the next one anyway. I think I’ve earned it, but they didn’t, wouldn’t ended up, wouldn’t say John you can sit in the right hand seat and we’ll give you a turn, no. Least they’d have done, but it wasn’t, they, oh we’ve got insurance problems, we can’t do this and can’t, but I notice that people like um, what’s his name, the 617 bloke who was here, his granddaughter worked the airport before, they gave him a ride in one of those.
GT: Les Munro. That is special.
JB: Yes, Les Munro. He got a ride in one, I didn’t. Anyway. A lot of the blokes, we, there’s a picture over there in my little corner there, all the blokes who’d flown the Mossie and supposedly people who’d flew Mosquitos and a lot of them never did fly Mosquitos: they were Lancaster people. Which a lot of them were 75 Squadron people and 75 Squadron didn’t have any Lancs, have any Mosquitos, so I know that they were sort of just getting in on the action.
GT: However, 75 Squadron RNZAF [emphasis] did fly Mosquitos from 1947 to 53 at Ohakea. That might have come from, I think -
JB: Oh yeah, they were talking about Second World War veterans here, so they couldn’t have done. Anyway.
GT: Well I think they, a lot of them did fly Lancasters World War Two and post war, when New Zealand then was given 75 number plate and then we, they flew seventy five Mosquitos from England to New Zealand, and I think those guys went on to carry on flying those then. So that’s might have been where it was.
JB: Anyway, doesn’t matter now.
GT: It’s a huge thing, only a couple left out of those whole seventy, they cut them up. But look John. Just one last little thing then. Where are we now? You’ve obviously got a morning job, and it’s now roughly approaching 1pm in the afternoon so I’ve intruded on your day, but it’s been fascinating talking to you, but please tell a little about where we are and what this Institute does, because it’s a very important job that New Zealand does.
JB: Well, the reason we’re here is many years ago, when they shipped wood to export to Japan, there was a team of all oldies that we used to do these eight hour shifts because we did a quality test every fifteen minutes when they were loading the ship, and they had to have people who didn’t rely on a full time job, we were called when we were needed, which was very good and when we had a midnight till eight, the morning, or no, I think it was eleven till seven and seven till three I think, and this carried on until the port got smaller cause the ships got bigger and they couldn’t load ships and also the MDF plants opened up in Richmond, so they didn’t need to send it away from Nelson any more, it could all be done from other places and they found out that old JB was still handy with his fingers, so can you fix this John, yes I can and so thirty years ago and I’ve been here ever since, [indecipherable] fixing things and I like them and they like me, you know, and it’s good, it's been lovely and that’s how I came to be with Cawthron Institute. Not because of my scientific knowledge I might tell you!
GT: So what do they specifically look after and look out for here? What is their main role?
JB: Well, they do scientific research of any kind. They test food, they do a lot of marine work here, there’s, you know, if you look at the history of the Cawthron in recent years you’ll see a lot of it’s tied up in marine work: fresh water, salt water, mussels, we do all the salmon testing, king salmon, you know, make sure there’s not too much mercury in the fish and goodness knows what, and all this sort of stuff. They do a lot of pure research as well, as I told [indecipherable] they inspect all the spats for mussels, so by and large I think it’s a good place. They’ve got the most, we’ve got the most diverse number of people you’ve ever seen. We’ve got Germans, we’ve got French, we’ve got Russians, we’ve got Chinese, we’ve got Japanese, we’ve got Lithuanians, we’ve got French, we’ve got Dutchmen, we’ve got Englishmen, everybody [emphasis] here and everybody gets on. It’s a wonderful place, the Cawthron, it really is.
GT: And you’re the go-to fix-it man of the building.
JB: Yes. Mr Fix-it, that’s me!
GT: Mr Fixit. And you are how old now?
JB: Be ninety five in October.
GT: There you go! There’s hope for all of us to know that we can get a great old age and still be working.
JB: I don’t know! I hope you sided going in the lift!
GT: Well John, it’s been such a pleasure to first meet you, but second to talk to you today because the International Bomber Command Centre, I know, is looking for the beautiful stories of you men that made some huge sacrifices for us, some the ultimate, and yourself, obviously, you fought for our freedom and I thank you very much for that and I think that we’ve kind of come to it.
JB: I suppose it’ll be okay. I didn’t tell you too much about my flying career when I think about it, you know.
GT: I hope you’ve written a book. [Laugh]
JB: It’s okay, whatever keeps them happy.
GT: I’ve been in worse. Thank you sir, and I certainly appreciate your time with me today and is there one last word you’d like to give? One last word on the recording you’d like to give me?
JB One last word. Well what do I say? It’s been nice meeting you, and certainly a surprise. I had a similar interview as this about three weeks ago from a man who is doing exactly what you’re doing for 100 Group because they have a reunion every year in England, in Norfolk, and he did exactly what you’re doing now, almost word for word what we’ve just said. If you can’t get that then, and also, I’ve also made a DVD of this same thing, just like you’re doing, about five years ago, which is on a DVD somewhere. if I can find it you can have that too if you want.
GT: See [indecipherable].
JB: Better leave me a card so I can get in touch with you.
GT: Okay John, well, thank you. We’ll end our interview there. That’s fifty three minutes that we’ve had a chat here, so. It’s been a pleasure.
JB: Chop it about, cut bits out you don’t like, or whatever.
GT: I’m sure they’ll like all of it, okay. So, thank you John, I appreciate your time. Thank you. Bye bye.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Benjamin Beeching
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABeechingJB180118
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:53:28 audio recording
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Language
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eng
Description
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John Beeching was born in London and joined the RAF in 1941. His initial training was in Canada. After several escapades John joined 169 Squadron as a night fighter pilot and worked in electronic countermeasures as well as training crews in air gunnery. Post-war he saw damage in Germany and moved on to instruct in blind landings. John left the RAF and went to Canada then emigrated to New Zealand, working in a number of engineering based jobs. John came over to the unveiling of the Green Park Memorial and was active in the New Zealand Bomber Command Association. He gives his strongly felt views on these and other matters.
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
New Zealand
England--Bedfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
Manitoba--Winnipeg
New Brunswick--Moncton
New Zealand--Christchurch
New Brunswick
Manitoba
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
100 Group
169 Squadron
627 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Beaufighter
bombing
Gee
Mosquito
Oxford
P-51
pilot
radar
RAF Twinwood Farm
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/676/10079/PAskewMV1801.2.jpg
9fc40a4f28c38c4178deb83918346de7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/676/10079/AAskewMV180115.1.mp3
5613964e24f35278a9b629ff9e2471b1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Askew, Maurice Vivian
M V Askew
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Maurice Vivian Askew (b. 1921 1098180 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 207 squadron and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Askew, MV
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: This is Monday the 15th of January 2018 and I’m in the home of Mr Maurice and Doris Askew of Christchurch, New Zealand. Maurice was RAF Volunteer Reserve number 1098180. Maurice was born 6th August 1921, Redditch, Worcestershire, England and joined the RAF in March 1941 as an aircraftsman. He worked in maintenance units and then volunteered and trained as a flight engineer for aircrew in 1943 at RAF St Athan, and qualified as an FE sergeant. He crewed at RAF Syerston, Number 5 Lancaster Finishing School and joined 207 Squadron at RAF Spilsby. Hello, Maurice. Thank you for allowing me to interview you for the IBCC Archives.
MA: It, it will be a pleasure. I hope it will be a pleasure talking to you.
GT: Excellent.
MA: We’ll see. Yeah.
GT: And we also have your lovely wife Doris sitting here too.
MA: Right. Yeah.
GT: And she’s going to help us with some of the bits and pieces to fill in too. So she’s, she’s very much with it and exactly what we’re, just Maurice can you please tell me a little bit about where you grew up and why you wanted to join the Royal Air Force?
MA: I grew up in a small town in Worcestershire called Redditch and when the war broke out it was necessary for me to be in one of the services. If I didn’t volunteer for any service it would be the army. So, I didn’t fancy the army but the RAF was waiting to welcome me and I joined the RAF in [pause] when?
DA: ‘41.
MA: 1941. Yeah. 1941. Now what?
GT: And as you joined up as an engineer fitter. Aircraft technician.
MA: A flight.
GT: An aircraftsman there.
MA: Yeah. An aircraftsman.
GT: Yeah.
MA: Okay.
GT: So, you were responsible for engines and air frames.
MA: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: And from there you went, still wanted to go in the air didn’t you?
MA: I’m trying to —
GT: You wanted to become a flyer.
MA: Yes. So, I was based in —
GT: In RAF St Athan.
MA: St Athans. Yes. But after a time I felt I should be flying and so I transferred to training at Spilsby to become a flight engineer which was a step beyond a mechanic I suppose.
GT: How was that training? Did you, did you find it difficult moving from a ground job to an air job? Or was it just a simple? It was easy.
MA: No. No. It was just a straightforward move from one job to another.
GT: And, and the flight engineer job working on the aircraft as a flyer was no different you thought.
MA: I don’t know how I can put it quite. I’m sorry.
GT: Your, your experience though Maurice was what you wanted to do. You wanted to fly and you achieved that. And so, so then the moving to finding a crew. You went to Syerston, to Number 5 Lancaster Finishing School.
MA: Yes.
GT: Can you describe how you found your skipper and your crew?
MA: And then a number of flight people got together in the, in a hall where we sorted ourselves out. Pilots, flight engineers, and so on. And I’m not putting this very well.
GT: You’re doing —
MA: My wife can explain.
GT: You’re doing very well. That’s fabulous. Yeah. That’s the information we’re after. And therefore you found your skipper.
MA: My skipper. How I came —
DA: Wally Jarvis.
MA: To get the link up with Wally —
GT: Yeah.
MA: I’m not sure. We just liked one another although in a way we were quite different. Wally was a light boxer actually. I wasn’t a boxer at all. But we got on so well somehow and continued our training together as pilot and flight engineer.
GT: And you were joined by your, you joined up with a navigator and wireless operator too.
MA: And in a similar way we picked up navigators and gunners. I’m not putting this well.
GT: Yes. I’ve got, your navigator was Sid Pearson.
DA: Yes.
GT: And your wireless operator was Jeff Moray.
MA: Yes.
GT: Is that right? Yeah. And your bomb aimer was Phil Paddock.
MA: That’s right. That’s the name of our crew.
GT: Yeah. And then you had two Canadians as your gunners.
MA: Yeah.
GT: That’s great. So then you were at Spilsby.
MA: That’s right. Yes.
GT: Yeah.
MA: We went to Spilsby where we trained in various aspects of Air Force life I suppose [pause] sorry. It’s gone. It’s gone.
GT: Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. So, at Spilsby. That’s in Lincolnshire, isn’t it?
MA: Yeah.
GT: So, so you weren’t far away from the main action of all the airfields. So, you did your first operation and you were just saying to me that was Berlin, that was your first op.
MA: Yes. My first op with the crew was to Berlin.
GT: And that was about February 1944.
MA: Yes. Yeah. It all went quite well actually and we returned.
GT: It was very busy night you said in your book. There was lots of fireworks going on.
MA: Berlin, of course was a major target in those days. I just remember lots of fireworks going off. You know —
GT: And you, and you certainly managed to get back okay so that was fabulous. But, but it was, it was the next night, on your second operation of your crew on the 19th and 20th of February and you were flying in EMA for Able.
MA: Yeah.
GT: Aircraft number EE126.
MA: Yes.
GT: And your target was —
MA: Leipzig.
GT: Leipzig. Can you, can you remember what happened?
MA: We set off for Leipzig and [pause]
GT: You had some, you had a Messerschmitt 110 come at you didn’t you? Your gunners, your gunners took at them.
MA: As we, as we reached the target going in there were fireworks and so on in front of us we were attacked by a Messerschmitt.
GT: And that set you on fire so you had to get out, eh? And I see you’ve written in your book that Philip was a little bit stuck trying to get out so you gave him a bit of a push to get out. And Wally was blown out of the, out of the cockpit. So they were saved.
DA: Yes.
GT: Yeah. And what? You managed to pull your rip cord, okay.
MA: Automatically I presume. As I went out.
GT: Because you knocked yourself unconscious.
MA: And the side of the cockpit exit hatch hit me and I passed out to come around as I was just above the ground which I thought was the sea because of white waves. But suddenly as I hit the ground as it was I passed out again.
DA: It was snow.
MA: And of course, the ground had been covered. Was covered in snow at that time.
GT: And you were rescued? You were rescued then, and a family took you in and looked after you. Is that right?
MA: This is a mess. I’m sorry.
GT: Yeah. Maurice, you’re doing fine. So, so in this case though you survived the snow and you were taken prisoner of war.
MA: And picked up by some farm people who took me to their farmhouse, patched me up as best they could, gave me something strong to drink and there I stayed for two days perhaps until the RAF sent RAF police to pick me up.
DA: Well —
MA: Yeah. The German. German police.
DA: German.
MA: German police.
GT: Yeah.
MA: Yeah. Taken then for a time to a police station where I was kept for a few days and then later the German Air Force picked me up and I was taken to [pause] No, it’s gone. I’m sorry, it’s gone.
GT: So, it’s taken prisoner of war that’s, that’s a, it’s a pretty big time and in this case you’ve written quite a bit about it in your beautiful books here Maurice and I think our listeners would be, would get a great sense of, of the time you spent with them and we can let you let you know of those books. So that was, that was over a year and a, a year and a bit you were a prisoner of war. So you had many of the other British flyers with you or Americans. Or —
MA: I’m not putting it very well, am I?
DA: In the prisoner of war camp there was British wasn’t there?
MA: Sorry, I can’t —
GT: Yeah. Lots of Royal Air Force. Yeah. So, so during, when it came time for the end of the war there you were repatriated back to England. Did you fly? Did Lancasters pick you up? Or how did you get back from Europe?
DA: Oh well, you all escaped from the guards didn’t you when the war finished.
MA: We were being marched from one German prison camp to another and at the end of the war the camp in which we were was thrown open and the German guards left and we were left on our own to get back to England as best we could. We waited for a time in the camp until we were picked up by a British group who then took us to one of the local German airfields where we were put together with a lot of other American err British ex-prisoners and flown back to England.
DA: You could mention about how you went to some more and went from the camp and you commandeered that German car, and you drove to the —
MA: I don’t think it’s good.
DA: You didn’t think it‘s right.
MA: I don’t think it’s good. No. I’m sorry.
GT: So, Maurice, once you, did you demob straight away or did you stay in the RAF from that time? Yeah.
DA: You were sent home on leave weren’t you? For a month.
MA: That’s right.
DA: And every time the month was nearly up they wrote another letter and said it’s extended.
MA: And this went on for about three or four months, didn’t it?
DA: Yes. Yes.
MA: So, I was in the RAF in Britain.
DA: But at home.
MA: Taking, looking after trainees and people.
DA: And we got married.
GT: Yeah. So where did you meet Doris?
DA: Oh, we’d known each other before the war.
MA: Before the war.
DA: Yeah.
MA: Yeah.
GT: Fabulous. And did you stay? Did you go back to Redditch?
DA: Yes.
MA: Yes. And what happened? I set up a small business. A little advertising agency which also painted shop signs and things. But there seemed very little in this to go on and when the government offered university and college trainees for ex-servicemen I applied for a five year grant to study at Birmingham College of Art.
DA: And you were granted that.
MA: Which I was granted.
GT: Awesome. And you moved on and you said you took a job with a television company.
DA: That was —
GT: No.
DA: You went, after the college you went to [ Burton?] College of Art to teach.
MA: That’s right.
DA: And we stayed there, what two or three years.
MA: Yes. I began teaching at Burton.
DA: Yes.
MA: School of Art. For —
DA: Two or three years.
MA: A few years.
DA: And then we went to Newcastle on Tyne to the Art College up there. But we only stayed there about a year or less and you —
MA: Yeah.
DA: We went down to London and you took a job with Granada Television which was just opening up.
GT: Granada Television. Yes. I see you’ve got a lovely photograph here of all your crew. So, what shows did you work on? Was it television or was it movie? Or —
DA: It was more that you did the graphic designs that came —
MA: It’s in the book.
GT: Yeah. Yeah.
DA: You did the graphic designs that came up to the —
MA: And the set designs.
DA: And the set designs.
GT: Yeah.
DA: For the programmes. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. I’m going to mention for the recording now that Maurice’s book is specifically autobiography, “There’s No Caviar for a Kingfisher,” by Maurice Askew. “A scrapbook of life in a Midlands town during the years from the 20s to the early 60s,” in the RAF and then the golden years of commercial television and Maurice has detailed everything of his Royal Air Force training, career, the operations and then his POW time in that. So that is wonderfully written Maurice and it’s a great piece that we can refer people who are interested to read there from there. So, after your time with Granada you did, you, you emigrated to New Zealand then. Was it 1963 Doris? Was that right?
DA: Yes. Yes.
MA: Yes.
DA: That’s right. Yes. You saw it advertised, didn’t you? And you’d been in Granada a few years and you thought well this was another opportunity so you applied and they accepted us and arranged for us to fly out. Well, we didn’t fly. We came by boat, didn’t we?
GT: Yeah.
DA: We came out on the Gothic. Was it called the Gothic?
MA: Gothic.
DA: Yes. It had, the Queen had used that boat for one of her trips.
MA: Wow.
DA: And the company had taken it back over and they’d taken all the central heating and air cooling thing out and it was on the side of the quay and so we were very hot at times.
GT: Right. That’s fascinating. So, you, and of course you had a family and —
DA: Yes. We had the two children then. Sue was coming up to seven and Colin was three. And —
GT: Fabulous. And your daughter Susan works here in Christchurch.
DA: Yes.
GT: And your son works still in England.
DA: Yes. He has his own business. He was with Shell for many years but they moved back to Holland. He had just got married and they were buying a house and he didn’t want to go and to sell all up and go to Holland and his wife had a good job as well so they, he just resigned.
GT: Fabulous. And you’ve stayed here in Christchurch and enjoyed—
DA: Yeah.
GT: Christchurch, New Zealand ever since.
DA: Ever since. Yes.
GT: Yeah.
DA: We’ve been quite happy here.
GT: Fabulous. And recently though, 2015 you’ve been made contact with a chap from Germany, Volker Urbansky who’s found your, the crash site of your aircraft.
DA: Yes.
GT: And that was something that was rather a surprise for you, I see.
DA: It came out of the blue didn’t it, Maurice?
MA: Yes.
GT: So, you’ve had, Volker has been in contact with you quite a bit and he’s given you quite an array of information and the night you were shot down the Messerschmitt 110 pilot who shot you down was Rudolph Franck and I’m looking at a Wikipedia example of Rudolph Franck’s history and he shot down forty two or had forty two aerial victories over allied aircraft. He too was then shot down and killed later in a collision with another Lancaster. But Volker here has managed to find the impact point of where your Lancaster crashed and went in to the snow and the ice. Have you had quite a bit of contact with him, Maurice?
DA: We did at first. When he first found it.
MA: I don’t like it. The way this is going.
GT: Understood. Okay.
MA: Stop it.
GT: Well, Maurice —
MA: I like to write things down so that, you know I can alter it as I go.
GT: Sure.
MA: And —
GT: Yeah.
MA: This quick thinking has gone these days I’m afraid.
GT: Well, Maurice —
MA: Can we do it some other way?
GT: Well, certainly, well look I think Maurice —
MA: Sorry.
GT: We’ve got enough material and it’s been fascinating meeting you today Maurice and thank you very much for letting me chat with you and Doris and I certainly appreciate the sacrifice you guys made for us and thank you very much for letting me interview you for the International Bomber Command Centre. You have an amazing amount of history here of your time and I certainly do thank you for that and thank you for letting me talk with you. So, thank you. We can finish the interview now.
MA: Alright. Thank you.
GT: But is there anything you would like to say to the IBCC and, of your time or are you pretty happy to leave it at that?
MA: Not really, am I? I’ve made a mess of that.
GT: No. You did fine Maurice and I certainly thank you.
DA: It’s getting, you’re getting tired now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maurice Vivian Askew
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Glen Turner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAskewMV180115, PAskewMV1801
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:22:06 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
Maurice Askew volunteered for the RAF and began training as a flight engineer. He was posted to 207 Squadron at RAF Spilsby and his first operation was to Berlin. On his last operation his aircraft came under attack. He was knocked unconscious as he baled out of the aircraft and regained consciousness just before he landed on snow which he first thought was the sea because of the appearance of waves. After a varied post war career Maurice became a set designer for Granada television before emigrating to New Zealand. His memoirs were published under the title, “No Caviar for a Kingfisher.”
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941-03
1943
1944-02-19
1944-02-20
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Leipzig
Wales--Glamorgan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
207 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
flight engineer
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 110
prisoner of war
RAF Spilsby
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/621/9641/AParryHP180723.2.mp3
13b5afae366c9f607dbb315a66c06f2a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parry, Hugh
Hugh Pryce Parry
H P Parry
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Parry, HP
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. Two oral history interviews with Hugh Parry (b. 1925, 2220054 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and newspaper cuttings. Hugh Parry flew operations as an air gunner with 75 Squadron and then as a photographer and air gunner with 90 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Hugh Parry and catalogued by Stuart Bennett.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: This is Monday the 23rd of July 2018 and I’m at the home of Mr Hugh Price Parry known as Hugh, born 25 err 22nd of May 1925 in North Shropshire, England. Hugh joined the RAF in December 1943 at the age of nineteen during training to become a chartered accountant. Hugh was also in the Air Training Corps and volunteered for the RAF as an air gunner as there was a shortage of gunners at that time. Hugh became the mid-upper gunner of the Paddy Goode crew from February to June 1945 completing thirteen war ops and one Manna drop on 75 New Zealand Squadron, RAF from Mepal. After VE Day Hugh was posted to 90 Squadron, then to RAF accounts, demobbing in May 1947. Hugh, thank you for allowing me to interview you in your home in Abingdon, Oxfordshire for the IBCC Archives. Please tell me why and how you joined the RAF in 1943.
HP: I was a member of the Air Training Corps because there was a general feeling that there was a bit more excitement about becoming, about becoming air crew. There was no real publicity about the potential casualty rate. There was a glamour which attached to air crew which were, from the point of view of meeting girls was alright. And of course, it was acceptable there was good, always good publicity. At the time my friends were just all slightly older than I. They all wanted to be PNB, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer as a general recruit. But when they went to volunteer and they got to the Aircrew Reception Centre they were all put on deferred service for at least eighteen months and in practice none of them actually got to serve on the squadron. When I went to the Aircrew Reception Centre knowing this I found that they were still accepting air gunners so I volunteered for air crew as an air gunner. All air crew of course being, being volunteers and as a result I got on to a squadron and became operational and looked down on the, my friends who were called up and all served as aircraftsman second class, general duties.
GT: When abouts did you begin your training then, Hugh?
HP: Well, the Reception Centre was in London and from there moved to Bridlington on the east coast of Yorkshire for Initial Training Wing in January which was a little chilly. And I’m not referring to the very mild curries which they had there. From there to Bridgnorth for Elementary Air Training School. Thereafter Pembrey, Number 1 Air Gunnery School which was, which was on the south coast of Wales, flanking the Bristol Channel. From there passed out as air gunner at the end of June 1944.
GT: And did you have an option of where to go? Fighter. Bomber Command.
HP: No. No. You were posted.
GT: And you then were sent down to Westcott with 11 OTU. So, how long did you spend there and where did you crew up?
HP: Well, you crewed up either on the first or second day. All the, all the trades, aircrew trades were put in the hangar. The hangar. And they evolved in to crews. There was no compulsion. No discipline. It just happened. And I think we were at Westcott which was an OTU Operational Training Unit until about the end of September. We then went to a holding unit on the, and we were training then on Wellingtons. We then went up to a holding unit because of the, we had to be posted somewhere until we went to Woolfox Lodge which was a Heavy Conversion Unit where we moved over from Wellingtons on to Lancasters.
GT: So, so you didn’t, you didn’t go in to Stirlings at all? You just went straight over to Lancasters.
HP: No. No. We went in to, in to real aircraft.
GT: So, your holding base in your logbook states Stradishall. So, you were at number 3 ACS in Stradishall for most of October ’44.
HP: Yes. That was just, that was just a holding unit where nothing happened.
GT: Nothing happened. Ok. So, so moving on to the Lancaster at 1651 OCU you spent pretty much that of November December there at Woolfox Lodge. So, the differences between the Wellington must have been huge between the types.
HP: Yes. The only thing which, which was the same was the rear turret. Otherwise, all other facilities were different. Including the position of the elsan.
GT: What position in the crew did you take up as a gunner?
HP: I was, when we got to the Lancaster I was mid-upper because there was just marginally more room there because I was six feet tall officially and the reason that was, that was official was when I was actually measured for my medical I made sure I made sure I wore baggy trousers.
GT: So, during your training the Gunnery Schools did they have moving targets? Were you flying in different aircraft for that?
HP: We were flying in Ansons at, at the air gunner, at the Air Gunner’s School and taking as the airborne targets drogues, drogues towed by Miles Masters. Or they might have been Miles Magisters as well but certainly Miles Masters and we were doing our air to air firing based on on those. We were also obviously doing ground firing and that was relatively simple and the, the drogues were towed behind the aircraft. There were four trainee air gunners in each Anson. Each supposed to be firing two hundred and fifty rounds out of the thousand which was in, in the ammunition tank. Of the, the two hundred and fifty of the rounds at a time had dyed, dye on the tips of the bullets so that you could count the holes going through and see what the dye mark was on them. The fourth one obviously didn’t need any dye because it just made a hole. So when the drogue was dropped on, on the runway they, it was taken back to the armoury section, laid out on a long table and the number of holes caused by each dye was counted and then divided by two [pause] because there was a hole where it went in and a hole where it came out. You may find that a little subtle.
GT: Interesting. Ok, so, and you were a good shot?
HP: Enough. Enough to get through and qualify.
GT: And what was the qualification grade for gunner?
HP: I don’t know.
GT: Well, were any chopped along the way that weren’t any good.
HP: Oh yes. You, you could you could get chopped for all sorts of reasons, you know. Inadequate theory, inadequate practice, indiscipline, incompatibility. Any particular reason. You weren’t necessarily explained to you.
GT: That’s something perhaps many don’t understand is that everyone sees you in a turret shooting guns but you actually went through quite a bit of paperwork and classroom training to become a gunner. So what kind of things did they teach you in Gunnery School?
HP: Well, you, you had to recognise very early on that you never fired at the target. You fired at where you had worked out the target would be by the time your bullet reached it and this was a question of relative speed, deflection, angle and so forth. That was the fundamental skill which you needed as an air gunner. Where to point the gun so that the bullet would get to the target when the target reached the bullet.
GT: The gun you used, the 303.
HP: 303.
GT: Explain about that gun for us and its capabilities.
HP: Yes. Well, the Browning 303 fired at the rate of twenty rounds a second which was quite fast and quite loud. And the ammunition tanks on for the mid-upper turret on the Lancaster were for a thousand rounds for each gun. Four, in the rear turret there were four of the same guns and the ammunition tanks were up just about the centre of gravity of the plane. And the bullet tracks came down through tracks along the side of the fuselage, four tracks and entered the turret from underneath the turret and fed up to the guns so there were two thousand five hundred rounds for each of those. Now, you couldn’t use anything like that for the mid-upper because the mid-upper would circulate through three hundred and sixty degrees or keep turning in any one direction. With the rear turret it would turn a total of a hundred and eighty degrees.
GT: And we’re talking about the Lancaster aircraft in that situation.
HP: I’m talking about the turrets. Not the aircraft.
GT: The [pause] in that situation for you did you have a choice because you did your tour as a mid-upper. Did you have a choice in being either or? Or a front gunner perhaps?
HP: No. No. The bomb aimer was, occupied the front turret. So as far as the other two turrets goes the two gunners sorted it out between themselves.
GT: Did you ever swap? Do the —
HP: Only once.
GT: And, and that was enough?
HP: Oh yes. Quite sufficient thank you.
GT: We were talking about how hearing loss was a huge thing throughout many of the crews during the war.
HP: Sorry?
GT: The hearing loss that was —
HP: Yeah.
GT: That happened.
HP: Yeah.
GT: That the aircrew had. So you were a that point —
HP: Well, I think, the mid-upper air gunner was in the worst position because he was sitting between the two guns and very close behind four thirteen hundred horsepower unsilenced engines. So, there was, there was a lot of noise and I think we all suffered that to some extent and fortunately with hearing aids I’ve been able to cope with the rest of my life. My hearing is not much worse now than it was fifty years, fifty years ago. Sixty years ago. There was an initial loss.
GT: Many also suffered, suffered tinnitus as well.
HP: Tinnitus you mean. Yes. I didn’t. Which was a repeating of the noise within the ears.
GT: That’s good. That’s good. So, with your gunnery then did anybody especially during your training did they miss the, miss the odd drogue and get the other aircraft? Was, was there any accidental shooting of friendly aircraft?
HP: No, because your fellow Air Force people were in that. Not all the training was with guns and live ammunition. A very considerable amount was with cameras. Camera guns. And in the camera guns the film would be processed and from that you were were able to be assessed on the probability that you would have hit the target with live ammunition. And with that of course the target aircraft could be manoeuvring a lot more violently than when it was towing a drogue. So the camera gun was quite a tool to be training air gunners.
GT: The, the role of, of the mid-upper gunner and tail gunner during a lot of sorties was to warn the skipper of, about, of aircraft and the like. Did you ever have to tell the skipper to do a corkscrew or take evasive action at all?
HP: Once. When we were [pause] no I’d better start. We were practically all on daylight operations to synthetic oil plants because at that far end of the war the Germans were running out of fuel for their aircraft and for their tanks and this was because we were doing daylight in flying in formation with, in a V formation with the leader of each V of three being equipped with special radar which was GH. Not Gee. GH. And you bombed, the leading aircraft in the V had that when he opened his bomb doors the other two did and when he dropped his bombs the other two did. And we would be going after small targets with precision. Not, not area bombing as such.
GT: Or other people call it carpet bombing I suppose.
HP: The [pause] the town and city devastation bombing that was, that was largely done on night time raids over large target areas where high explosive bombs would be dropped first followed by incendiary bombs which would set light to the debris caused by the high explosives. We were mainly with that. But the one time which I remember was that I remember looking up because as a mid-upper gunner you didn’t sort of gaze around in a random manner you did a regular pattern of search of all the way around in a circular direction and up to a hundred and eighty degrees vertically down as a routine. And I remember once seeing a group of aircraft above us open their bomb doors so my immediate reaction was, ‘Mid-upper to skipper, dive port, dive port.’ Which we did, and I was told by the navigator who looked out that some bombs missed our wing tip by about ten feet. I was not allowed to buy a drink that night.
GT: You saved your crew and your aircraft. Awesome.
HP: That was what you were asking for —
GT: Yeah. It certainly was. So, from your Heavy Conversion Unit we’ve established that you moved to 75 New Zealand Squadron at Mepal in February of 1945 and throughout the next few months you completed thirteen daylight war operations. Did any one of those trips stand out to you? That, was anything special or anything that was of memory to you?
HP: No. There was, they were fairly routine because they were to, as I say daylight trips to synthetic oil plants and on those we didn’t have a great deal of trouble with American, sorry with German fighters because we had close escort of Mustangs and high escorts of Spitfires. Other than of course they moved away when we were over the target area so we got the full benefit of flak.
GT: Was flak extremely heavy during the day?
HP: Yes. The Germans knew that they had to well, very well defend these synthetic oil plants because they were totally dependent on it for fuel for their, for their Army and their Air Forces.
GT: Your bomb loads. Did, did you have anything to do with the loads that are carried and did you know what the aircraft were carrying each day?
HP: No. No. Normally speaking we, we would carry twenty, twenty two thousand pounds. Say five tonnes for each aircraft and the bombs would be dropped from roughly twenty, twenty two thousand feet.
GT: As a gunner were you responsible for the cleaning of your guns and the mounting of them or was that the armourer’s responsibility?
HP: You seldom fired of them but if you did you, you could leave five shillings which was the best part of a day’s pay for the armourer to clean up but you did make sure yourself that the guns were coupled up directly with the reflector gunsight so that it did reconcile where the bullets would be going for the sight and the barrels.
GT: And they were removed after every sortie and taken back to the armoury?
HP: No.
GT: Was there normal?
HP: No. There was, there was, if they hadn’t been fired there was no need to remove them and they were seldom fired for the reasons I’ve said. The fighter escort. We got, we got largely the benefit of the flak over the target areas because the fighters knowing that there would be no German fighters over the flak ridden areas could, could keep on the outskirts as well quite properly and be ready for us, to escort us back.
GT: Did you see any of the German jet fighters at all?
HP: Just remember seeing the vapour trail of the odd one going very quickly up through the formation and then back down through. I think it was the ME 163. I don’t really remember. It was a few years ago. But not, not regularly.
GT: You then did an Operation Manna food drop.
HP: Yes.
GT: And were you given any heads up on that? Training or, and how did it eventuate for you?
HP: No. This was on a Sunday. We were, we were told at a briefing that the Germans had stopped trains delivering food to the, to the Dutch and that twenty thousand Dutch had died of starvation and a vast number more were suffering from malnutrition. The food we delivered was mounted in jute sacks. There weren’t any panniers, panniers or special equipment available on, on the first few trips. The bomb doors were nearly closed but enough room in between to let these sacks in and resting on the bomb doors which were closed of course when the total load was there. The food was dried. Dried eggs, dried milk, flour and essential ingredients like that and we went in at a designated route. The route, the place we dropped was on a racecourse just outside Den Haag or the Hague as, as it’s called. I think the dropping height was between three and five hundred feet. The Dutch knew we were coming, this, because the Red Cross had been involved in this. It was towards the end of the war and the Germans were getting a little worried about war crimes. And on the route which we took there were Dutch people out in the streets waving flags and table cloths. I mean, it was, it was a wonderful occasion because we were dropping something which was food which would keep people alive and not bombs which would kill people.
GT: The Dutch were always very thankful for for the food and they’ve always commemorated.
HP: Yes.
GT: The Operation Manna. For the likes of what you chaps did for that.
HP: Yeah.
GT: Were you told to empty your guns of ammunition?
HP: No.
GT: Did you, you went over there fully loaded.
HP: Yeah. But, but you weren’t expecting to have to fire but just in case because we weren’t told that the Germans had agreed to this. It had been agreed through and with the Red Cross so we were ready in case there were any attacks and there weren’t. I think the subsequent trips that they didn’t bother really much with guns because the trips had become fairly routine.
GT: Did you go in single file or did you go in as a squadron or a gaggle?
HP: As a gaggle. On, on, on a designated route at a designated height.
GT: And with, with the war closing to a finish was there much talked about on the squadron as to what would happen once the war had finished? What you were going to be doing.
HP: No. We had no idea what we would be doing because it was the war in Europe which was finishing. There were wars elsewhere.
GT: Who, who was your commanding officer of 75 Squadron at that time you were there?
HP: Wing Commander Baigent. Or it might have been Group Captain Baigent. B A I G E N T. He was a very ancient warrior. I think he was, he might have been twenty four, twenty five.
GT: And what did the crew think? What did all the crews think of Wing Commander Baigent? Cyril Baigent.
HP: Oh, he was, he was a leader who was respected and when, he spoke obviously at every aircrew briefing and he had everybody’s respect.
GT: Did, did he get to see all the crews at a time or was the CO kind of out in the background?
HP: No. No. When we first went there I think this may show in the logbook and I think it could have been on our first, first trip his crew was on leave and I think he acted as our pilot. Have a look at our first trip. He acted as our pilot. Now anybody who would do that with a raw sprog crew gets all the respect he deserves.
GT: 22nd of February 1945 war operation to Osterfeld. Five hours. Daylight raid. He, he went on to be one of the potential leading officers of the Royal New Zealand Air Force but he died of cancer in the early 50s so it was —
HP: Yes. I think he died in the early 50s or [pause] Yeah. But you know various things happened over the target area with flak. One experience will always be with me. If you were in the mid-upper you didn’t get, I think I’ve said this, you didn’t look around in a random manner you did a regular search of the sky. And on one particular trip I was looking up and being rather tall my head was pressed hard against the Perspex. At the back of my head there was a loud bang. I looked around and where my head had been there was a hole about the size of, about an inch across. So I immediately felt the back of my head, put my hand in front of me. There was no blood. Looked back. There was the hole. The only possible explanation for that and no blood was that I was dead. And it was some, some moments before I realised that what had happened was a piece of shrapnel had ricocheted off. You don’t, you don’t forget an experience like that.
GT: That was from an ack ack shell exploding nearby was it?
HP: Yeah. But you know normally speaking you would come, you would come back with a number of holes in the fuselage. We came back one time with two engines gone on one side and on that particular day the North Sea seemed about as wide as the Pacific which was [pause] it was not a healthy occupation.
[pause]
GT: With your time at Mepal, Mepal was a big station. It obviously had three flights of —
HP: It only had one squadron.
GT: One squadron but three flights.
HP: Yeah.
GT: So you would have had something like thirty plus aircraft. So, so what things around Mepal did you guys get up to during your off time? Pubs? Dances?
HP: Well, Ely was the best place to get to. It was about ten, twelve possibly miles to to the east there and they had restaurants, pubs. And generally speaking there were so many aerodromes within East Anglia, and this was 3 Group that you were made pretty welcome where every you were because the local inhabitants knew what you were up to, had an idea of of casualty rates so there was, there was friendly stuff everywhere. And that’s what it was. Leave was compulsory every six weeks which was a terrible thing to happen. To have to happen.
GT: One of the major things that some of the aircrew faced was lack of moral fibre or LMF. Was that something you were aware of or that was talked of amongst the aircrew?
HP: All aircrew were volunteers and you could not be charged with a refusal to fly as such. What, what happened was that the refusal stimulated the impression of a rubber stamp with the letters LMF on all your documents and this was a mark of shame. Lack of moral fibre. But you could not, you could not be charged. You could be sent to a disciplinary school which I think was based somewhere up in Yorkshire and have a fairly tough time but you could not be charged with a refusal to fly. So LMF was that. But you had the other symptom which was known as being flak happy where perhaps the odd member of a crew in the mess would sit on his own in an armchair just not communicating and he would be referred probably to the medical officer and he would be taken off flying on medical grounds. That was different from LMF.
GT: Did you get a chance to see them before they left or they just disappeared and another person replaced them?
HP: They disappeared very quickly. As I say it was not what, nobody wanted it to be contagious.
GT: Your, your skipper, you joined the crew with was Flight Sergeant Goode. Paddy Goode, you say. And the first part of February he was a flight sergeant and early in March he was, he was commissioned to flying officer.
HP: No. At that, at that time an instruction went out, presumably from the Air Ministry that all pilots in squadrons in Bomber Command should be, should be commissioned. So, at that stage instead of being the seven of us in the same hut and in the same mess he got sent off to be in a different hut and a different mess. And neither he nor we were over enthusiastic about it but but we recognised that it was a, well a recognition of his duties as the pilot and skipper of the, of the crew. And this was something we had to tolerate.
GT: You got on already with all of your crew really well?
HP: Yes. We were all, all a bit different but we all trusted each other which was, that was the part that was essential. We had —
GT: Was it something that was taught, told to you, or it just gelled when you all got together?
HP: Well, it happened and it had to happen because if you became an untrusted member of the crew. No. It was not acceptable.
GT: And all of your crew were British.
HP: Yes.
GT: And did you follow any of them up during, after the war?
HP: No. No. After I, we got posted to 90 Squadron as a crew after the war in Europe finished and we understood although we were never told officially that in September we would be sent out with Tiger Force to Okinawa to take part in the Japanese war. Fortunately, two atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and we never had to go. And when those bombs were dropped and the news came across on the wireless in the mess a cheer went up.
GT: With 75 New Zealand Squadron at Mepal once VE day occurred there was pretty much the mass posting of all others than New Zealanders, and 75 New Zealand Squadron moved from Mepal to Spilsby. So your whole crew, being British you were shifted to 90 Squadron. What was your role then and what did you achieve from, from VE Day onwards with 90? Because your whole crew moved, didn’t it?
HP: Yeah.
GT: Yeah.
HP: Oh, it was just another, another squadron. We were, we were new in there. It had been an operational squadron. The other aircrews knew that we had been on operations so there was no antagonism or anything else like that. You just went and you fitted in. No problem.
GT: What was the role of 90 Squadron for that time then? What did you do specifically for them?
HP: After [pause] after the war one of its principal duties was taking part in Operation Review which was a photographic survey of the whole of Europe taken with two large cameras and lasting many many hours.
GT: 90 Squadron at that time was at RAF Tuddenham.
HP: Yes.
GT: And where was —
HP: Which was Suffolk.
GT: In Suffolk. Ok. So, with the cameras what did you have to do to achieve the shots they asked of you?
HP: Well, you, you had to make sure that they were correctly positioned in regard to the drift of the aircraft as, because the line of the photographs had to be in a direct line. Not the curving line of that. And the other thing you had to do was to reflect the speed of the aircraft either in one direction or the other according to the timing of the exposure.
GT: Did you review your photographs after or were they just taken away and —
HP: They were taken. They were taken away and developed and very often they would be posted as a whole series of them in a very large room which showed whether there were any gaps or not.
GT: Did you have to go back and do some that you’d missed?
HP: That had to be done. If there were, if there were gaps.
GT: Was that 90 squadron’s sole role at that time or were there other squadrons doing the same thing?
HP: I don’t know.
GT: The use of the camera when you got to 90 Squadron, was that something that you’d done before or you had to be taught it?
HP: No. No. If you have a look in the logbook you will see that just after the posting to 90 Squadron I think there is a reference to training for use of the camera. [pause] Yes.
GT: Yeah.
HP: You found it.
GT: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. So once, now was the camera hard mounted in to the floor of the Lancaster? Did they cut a hole and then hard mount the camera or just hold it?
HP: In in the floor of a Lancaster there was space for a downward firing gun which would be mounted on a bar over this and it was that particular area where the bar was and the cameras were fitted down there.
GT: Were there any ventral gunners on 75 Squadron during ops that you know of?
HP: Any?
GT: Ventral gun position and a under, under gunner they called them.
HP: No. I don’t remember. I think that the, you either had a ventral one which had a .5 Browning mounted on the bar like that or alternatively it was where the HTS radar device was mounted and H2S radar devices were not popular with the aircrew because the Germans could home on the signals.
GT: Making you rather vulnerable. 75 Squadron did have a under belly gunner on, one on each flight. I’ve interviewed a chap who was one of those gunners and he was just dropped off and said, ‘You’re in it.’ So I was wondering if you’d seen that and that was only a modification made to one or two aircraft. So on 90 Squadron the whole fleet or the whole squadron —
HP: Yeah.
GT: Had that modification.
HP: Yeah. Well, all the Lancasters had the hole. Sometimes it was with a ventral turret. Sometimes it was with a .5 machine gun just mounted on there. Sometimes it was H2S. Most of the time it was just blanked off.
GT: Ok. Going back to your firing 303 rounds compared to fifty cal rounds. So half inch versus three point three.
HP: I never fired much. I never really fired any .5s.
GT: That must have been a bigger lead with a bigger bullet heading off to the enemy. Yeah. The target.
HP: Yeah, but yeah, and of course, with more noise and more kick but a slower rate of fire.
GT: So, once you’d completed your flying and review camera work on 90 Squadron in October 1945 that was the last of your flying time was that right?
HP: It was. Yes.
GT: Where did they post you from there?
HP: Because of my occupation before going in to the Air Force I I was posted to a school for RAF accounts equipment and pay because that was my civilian trade. And that’s what I did for the rest of my time until I was demobbed.
GT: Had you completed your accountant programme there before the war?
HP: No. No. You had five years articles. I started at sixteen. I would have finished by the time I was twenty one but war service of course interrupted that. As a concession for war service you could serve as an article clerk three years instead of five and you could get consideration in the final examination on two subjects or exemption from the intermediate. I went for exemption on the intermediate knowing that I would need to do the finals.
GT: And you completed your accountancy. Your chartered accountancy.
HP: Oh yes.
GT: And that gave you your future.
HP: That was my trade for life.
GT: And what companies did you work for for that? Is it a whole myriad or one or two you stood out for?
HP: Well, yes. Having, having been articled in a small country town I then worked in, in London, in the City of London for three years. And in 1952, by this time we were married and had a child my wife and I we went and lived in Calcutta, Dacca, Chittagong for five, for five years and came back and got a job with a construction material company which was taken over with various successes but that lasted until I retired at the age of sixty.
GT: And where did you meet your wife? During the wartime or was it post-war?
HP: We met, we met in April 1945. Yeah, and got married in October 1946 and, can you stop a moment?
[recording paused]
HP: We met in April. April 1945 and we got on well together but by about the end of May 1945 she gave me a photograph of herself which in those days was, didn’t necessarily represent a commitment but meant she wouldn’t really mind seeing you again and that photograph I have now and it is in my bedroom and it overlooks my bed. And that is it and you can see it for yourself.
GT: That is wonderful. It is special. Thank you for showing me. And her name?
HP: Elaine.
GT: Elaine.
HP: E L A I N E. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. And how many children did you have between you?
HP: We had three. Three children of whom you’ve met. We had three children. We have seven grandchildren and so far only seven great grandchildren. But no doubt there will be more.
GT: Fascinating. And you retired from your accountancy work and did you do anything special after that?
HP: No. Well, I was involved in all sorts of odd things you know in relation to sport, fisheries and in relation, and in relation to work. I was on the London and South East Regional Planning Committee you know for about sort of five years after I retired and various other oddments, you know. Yeah. But I was on the National Fisheries Committee and that was a very interesting one. You may have heard of a rugby player called Gareth Edwards who was in the Welsh team in the early ‘70s. I was the representative of Thames Water Fisheries and he of the South Wales Fisheries and at the meetings we used to sit next, next to each other. Gareth was a lovely man.
GT: Fascinating. And you retired here to Abingdon. How long have you been living here?
HP: We [pause] we lived in Abingdon from 1959 when we came back from India and stayed in the same house until my wife died in 1999. And I now live in this block of retirement flats alone and solitary. Yeah. But with the, with the family fortunately daughter and two sons all within ten miles.
GT: Fabulous support.
HP: Yes.
GT: In 2012 there was a special Memorial unveiled in London.
HP: It was. The Bomber Command Memorial and I was fortunate enough to get an invitation to that through the Bomber Command Association.
GT: And that’s where you and I met for the first time.
HP: Yes.
GT: You were in a crowd and you met Denise Boneham from 75 UK Association.
HP: Yeah.
GT: And she came down and she said, ‘We’ve found another 75 Squadron chap.’
HP: Yeah.
GT: That was wonderful and there was a photograph of you and I and for years I wondered who you were. So it was, it was fabulous to meet up with you again Hugh a couple of years ago. So, so you were also a member of the UK 75 Squadron Association for a while. Was that right?
HP: I was but that finished years ago.
GT: They, they moved from being totally for the veteran side to to become Friends of the 75 Squadron UK Association so, so you’re still a member.
HP: Yes.
GT: But that’s fair dos to you.
HP: I have no connection with it. I don’t receive anything from them, from them —
GT: Well —
HP: And you know time goes past.
GT: Well, I know you’re on the mailing list so obviously it’s the mailman is not delivering the right parcel here. But so, so if you have a look at your wartime service, the volunteer side of things it’s something that you decided you had to do. You wanted to serve your king and country. Do you feel that you did your bit?
HP: Yes. I think taking a risk did because you didn’t know totally what would be involved when you did it. It was, it was not pleasant being operational but as operational aircrew there was a certain caché about it and you know being around with a brevet and so forth you had strange privileges. As I say, leave every six months, sorry every six weeks and possibly once a year when you went on leave in addition to your normal pay you got five shillings a day from the Nuffield fund. And since your pay was eight shillings a day the extra five shillings was a substantial addition. Particularly when beer was less than a shilling a pint. So yes, there was a certain glamour attached as well, as well as the dangers. There were privileges but you had to, you had physical and mental stress. The mental stress obviously from that but the physical stress from, from the cold and the discomfort and general cramp of not being able to move for five or six hours perhaps. Yeah.
GT: When you did your review flying and you were flying across Germany and France to across all the bombing sites did you concentrate on your job or did you notice what had been happening?
HP: No. This was a review. A geographical review. A photographic review of the whole of Europe to get a photographic map of the whole of Europe. Anything to do with bombing areas that would be done by sort of Bomber Command doing that for the purpose of getting damages but there wasn’t a great deal of difference between damages at Hamburg and damages at Dresden, you know. You got buildings destroyed and you could, it didn’t take much to imagine the very unpleasant consequences for that. One occasion which did stick in my mind is in April ’45 there was a publication of photographs of the concentration camp at Belsen where there were literally piles of corpses and Jewish survivors, very thin and skeletal and seeing those photographs certainly as far as I was concerned and I think as far as many others were concerned removed any thought of guilt about having dropped bombs on German civilians. It was not a pleasant experience.
GT: Bomber Harris was your initial or ultimate boss.
HP: He was.
GT: Could he have done it any other way?
HP: No.
[pause]
GT: Given the equipment you were given and the tasks you undertook.
HP: Don’t forget that quite apart from the area, area bombings and B) the ones we were after which were specialised on the synthetic oil plants he also had the precision bombings of, if you like the viaducts with the ten thousand pound bombs and the bouncing bomb against the dams. They were part of his job as well to look after those. But the bulk of the people and the aircraft involved were more or less mass destruction of one sort or another but he did have the specialised ones as well.
GT: What was the talk of Bomber Harris after the war?
HP: Oh, he —
GT: Did he deserve accolades or peerage?
HP: Yes. He took the blame for every German civilian killed. He was the one who said yes and it, there were a whole lot of British people who looked after that. They saw the bomb damage in say Dresden and Hamburg which was a lot greater than the bomb damage of Liverpool and London. But it was proportionate to the time when the bombing was done because the Germans were unable to continue their bombing raids. They would have been very happy to do so. Instead of having live aircraft with live people on they had the V weapons. The V-1 and the, and the V-2 which were totally indiscriminate.
GT: There’s obviously in the last ten years been much talk of a campaign medal for those of Bomber Command. The men that survived and did not survive.
HP: Yes.
GT: What is your opinion and thoughts on that?
HP: Well, yes. That there should be recognition because of the high proportion of casualties. Let me just say the numbers involved for the record. I’m sure you got it everywhere else. Bomber Command were all volunteers. A hundred and twenty thousand went in to Bomber Command. Of those fifty five thousand were killed, ten thousand taken prisoner and seven thousand wounded. So it was not a healthy occupation and there was good cause and good reason for some sort of recognition. Yes, a medal was campaigned for but you have to remember now that we now have a clasp to fit on to our medals which says Bomber Command which was the recognition of the Bomber Command contribution. It specifically says so on it. Bomber Command. Now a medal you know would be another way of doing it but it is, it is recognition.
GT: Is there anything else that you can think of that would be of value for those people who are going to listen to this recording in the future that you might have thought of that could be of value?
HP: Well, the trouble is as you become less young it’s not too easy to recall things. In fact, I do have a problem with this. Sometimes I forget I’ve got amnesia [pause] And that might be a good note to finish on.
GT: Hugh, it’s, it’s been marvellous to have a chat with you. Thank you very much for talking with me on the interview. I certainly appreciate your company and it’s great to drive all this way today to see you and I’ll go back to New Zealand very soon but it’s been a pleasure to know you and thank you very much. I’ll give you the last word, Hugh.
[pause]
HP: Ok. Thank you very much.
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Title
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Interview with Hugh Parry. Two
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AParryHP180723
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
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Glen Turner
Date
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2018-07-23
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
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Hugh Parry was a member of his local ATC and was awaiting the time when he would be able to volunteer for the RAF. His slightly older friends had qualified to train as pilots, navigators or bomb aimers, but because of a backlog of trades they were given deferred entry. Hugh saw this and decided to train as a gunner. Hugh took the position of mid-upper because of his height and being more comfortable. He was posted to 75 Squadron, RAF Mepal. On one operation as Hugh was scanning the sky he looked upward and saw a Lancaster was about to drop its bombs and they were right in its path. He was able to warn the skipper to take evasive action and the bombs narrowly missed their aircraft. On another occasion when Hugh was scanning the sky he heard a bang behind his head. There was a hole in the Perspex where his head had been.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
Format
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00:53:40 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
11 OTU
1651 HCU
75 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Mepal
RAF Westcott
training